Blood Sugar Spikes, Carb Myths, GLP-1s, and Fat Loss Tips from a Type 1 Diabetic (Ben Tzeel) | Ep 343

Grab your free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint to learn how to eat for your training goals (even when managing blood sugar and eating carbs). Go to witsandweights.com/muscle

–

Are carbs really your enemy? Should you be training fasted? Can someone with diabetes actually build muscle and thrive?

Registered dietitian and strength coach Ben Zeal, who’s been living with type 1 diabetes for over 25 years, joins me to break down some of the biggest myths in fitness and nutrition. We discuss carb fear, insulin misconceptions, and the truth about fasted training, CGMs, GLP-1s, and more. 

Ben also covers how blood sugar management isn't just for diabetics, but for anyone wanting consistent energy, better performance, and body composition goals that stick. Our discussion is packed with real talk and practical strategies to train smarter, eat with confidence, and stop fearing carbs.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:39 – Should non-diabetics track glucose?
6:13 – Walks, workouts, and insulin sensitivity
9:28 – Can movement replace medication?
13:11 – How to overcome carb fear
15:14 – Best training approach for blood sugar
22:36 – Stress: the hidden blood sugar saboteur
27:40 – GLP-1 drugs and smart strategy
30:48 – What insulin pumps actually do
36:32 – How to become a consistent lifter
41:44 – Does fiber really matter for blood sugar?
44:25 – Where to find Ben and free resources

Rethinking Carbs, Blood Sugar, and Fat Loss (Even If You’re Not Diabetic)

If you’ve been avoiding carbs, skipping breakfast to train fasted, or worrying about blood sugar spikes because of something you saw on Instagram, this episode is going to challenge some of those assumptions and probably relieve a lot of unnecessary stress.

Today’s conversation with registered dietitian and strength coach Ben Tzeel is packed with practical, evidence-based strategies to improve insulin sensitivity, body composition, and energy levels… whether you’re managing type 1 diabetes or just trying to perform and feel better. Ben’s been living with diabetes for 25 years and brings a ton of lived experience to the science, but most of what we talk about applies to anyone.

Let’s unpack what you really need to know about blood sugar, carbs, fasting, training, and GLP-1 medications in the real world.

Carbs Aren’t the Enemy (and Blood Sugar Spikes Aren’t Always Bad)

If you don’t have diabetes, your body is already doing a great job of regulating blood sugar. A post-meal “spike” of 10 points on your CGM doesn’t mean you need to panic. The variability and range of your blood sugar matter far more than isolated highs or lows. And even then, for most non-diabetics, it’s just not something to obsess over.

If you do have diabetes, managing your time-in-range and using tools like walking, lifting, and nutrition can absolutely help. As Ben shared, something as simple as walking after a meal can have a powerful blood sugar-lowering effect, comparable in some cases to the effect of medications like metformin.

Why Lifting and Muscle Mass Are Your Metabolic Superpower

Here’s the part the fitness influencers often skip over: muscle is your largest reservoir for glucose. The more muscle you carry and the more you use it through strength training and movement, the more glucose your body can absorb without needing a big insulin response. That means less volatility in blood sugar and more room for flexibility with your nutrition.

Ben explained it as a series of gates (like a combination lock) that open up when you move, letting glucose into the muscle even without insulin. The takeaway? Lifting weights and walking regularly give you a built-in buffer for eating more carbs while keeping blood sugar in check.

Yes, You Can Eat Pizza and Cereal (Even with Diabetes)

One of the best insights from Ben was how important it is to repair the relationship with food if you’ve been told “you can’t have this” for years. Whether it’s diabetes or just diet culture fear-mongering, cutting out foods you love usually backfires.

The key is balance, awareness, and slow exposure. Ben works with clients to reintroduce foods like cereal or pizza with a plan… maybe higher protein versions, or eaten after activity. It’s not about restriction. It’s about building confidence that your body can handle these foods when the rest of your routine is on point.

Fasted Training: Smart Strategy or Overhyped Hack?

Let’s clear this up. Fasted training is not a magical fat-burning tool. It’s not superior for fat loss. It’s just a tool, one that might make sense for convenience, schedule, or, in Ben’s case, blood sugar management without needing to pre-bolus insulin.

For most people, there’s no major downside if protein is evenly distributed throughout the day. So train fasted if it helps you stay consistent. But don’t fall into the trap of thinking it’s required for results.

GLP-1s: Use the Tool, Don’t Rely on the Tool

GLP-1 agonists like Ozempic or Mounjaro have changed the game for weight loss and diabetes management. But they’re not magic. Ben made a strong case for using them as a springboard, not a crutch. If you don’t change your nutrition and activity, you’ll just regain the weight when you stop taking them.

That’s why his team focuses on the trifecta of nutrition, training, and blood sugar control. The medication may help you eat less, but the muscle you build, the habits you create, and the awareness you develop are what allow you to keep the results.

Tracking and Data (That Actually Matter)

If you’re managing blood sugar, CGM data is obviously essential. But even if you’re not, tracking macros (especially protein and total energy intake) is still one of the most effective ways to influence your body composition and performance.

Ben also keeps an eye on labs like A1c, thyroid panels, and sex hormones. And his advice? Don’t ignore stress. Chronic stress will wreck your blood sugar, your recovery, and your ability to stay consistent.

Becoming a Lifter for Life

One of the most powerful takeaways came near the end of our conversation: don’t expect perfection overnight. If your blood sugar isn’t ideal, or your weight loss is slow, or your training is inconsistent, that doesn’t mean you’re failing.

It means you’re human.

The real win is showing up consistently, lifting weights regularly, staying active, and eating in a way that you enjoy and can sustain. That’s how you build a physique and a lifestyle that actually lasts.

Final Thoughts

Carbs aren’t the problem. Insulin isn’t the enemy. And CGMs aren’t magic.

But walking more, lifting regularly, tracking protein and energy intake, and finding an approach that works for your lifestyle? That’s the foundation.

Whether you’re managing diabetes or just want to stop spinning your wheels with fat loss, take the pressure off and focus on what you can control. You don’t need extreme diets or fancy protocols. You need muscle, movement, and a mindset built for the long haul.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're avoiding carbs because you're afraid of blood sugar spikes, you're training fasted because someone said it burns more fat, or you think insulin is a problem, is the enemy of fat loss, but you're still dealing with energy crashes, inconsistent performance, you don't have the fat loss results you want for the effort you're putting in, then this episode is for you. Today, my guest, who has been managing type 1 diabetes for 25 years, has learned a lot about metabolism, insulin and body composition, and he is going to clarify some of those topics carb timing, insulin sensitivity, fat loss that the industry often gets wrong. So listen in tune in, because you're going to learn a ton about blood sugar, carbs and fasting that will help you focus your efforts to optimize your metabolism and finally get the results you want. Will help you focus your efforts to optimize your metabolism and finally get the results you want. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to discuss how someone living with type 1 diabetes has developed strategies that are going to help you help everyone when it comes to building muscle, optimizing health. Some of these are going to be counterintuitive. Yes, we're going to get into carbs and blood sugar and some of the hot topics, because they are important.

Philip Pape: 1:15

My guest is Ben Zeal, a registered dietitian, certified diabetes educator and certified strength coach, who was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at age 7.

Philip Pape: 1:25

And rather than letting this limit him, he's built a successful practice called your Diabetes Insider and helps thousands of people with diabetes live unrestricted lives while maintaining excellent blood sugar control, which is an amazing thing, because I definitely get that sense of frustration and sometimes hopelessness from individuals who feel like their medical history and their genetics are holding them back in some way. Ben's got over 25 years of personal experience, advanced credentials in nutrition and strength training. He's tested every approach, from high carb to low carb to intermittent fasting, and it's developed a hybrid approach that optimizes muscle building and glycemic control. Developed a hybrid approach that optimizes muscle building and glycemic control. So today I think you're going to learn a lot about myths like CGMs how useful are they, how to use them, how to navigate the carb confusion based on the evidence. His tips on building muscle while managing blood sugar to help you go after gains whether you have diabetes or not. With that, ben, welcome to the show.

Ben Tzeel: 2:24

I am so excited to be here and that was honestly the nicest intro anyone's ever done, so thank you.

Philip Pape: 2:29

Well, I appreciate that man and it's well-deserved. We were talking before, we were recording how we connected and we haven't had someone talk about diabetes specifically on the show, especially who has lived it. There is a lifter out there. She's called the Canadian Forklift. You know Jessica Bittner, which I'd love to have.

Ben Tzeel: 2:46

I don't know, I don't know. I know who she is and she's. I mean, my God, I'm like I would love to be just in remotely that stratosphere. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 2:54

Yeah, yeah, no, but it's inspired because, like in our Facebook group, when I hear from clients no, mainly people who haven't worked with me yet and you'll hear that sense of like, well, because I have diabetes, I can't X, y, z and I want to bust some of those today with you. So let's get into it. Let's start with blood sugar in general, because there's some science and mechanisms behind this, how the body works, and I guess I would say if there's one thing everyone could understand about blood sugar, what would that be?

Ben Tzeel: 3:20

Oh man, this is such a good question too. I feel like it's tough right, because I feel like, as a person with diabetes, it's obviously a different perspective, because I'm over here thinking, well, I have to stay in range, or at least relatively in range the majority of the time, but someone without diabetes, you've got all the hysteria but the fascination with what's my glucose right now. So the biggest thing is to not overreact to the blips that you see with blood sugars, and a perfect example of this would be I one time it was probably three, four years ago went out to breakfast with one of my friends. He was a dietician as well and he doesn't have diabetes, and so I figured you know what, let's see what happens. You're wearing a CGM, you got a CGM from your healthcare provider, whoever it was. Let's compare, let's eat the same pancakes, let's see what happens.

Ben Tzeel: 4:02

And it was hilarious. Of course, as a person with diabetes, I'm going to see more of a rise just because it was carbs and it was a good amount. These were chocolate chip pancakes that we didn't hold back, we had just lifted, and my blood sugar went up probably 160, 170. His blood sugar I absolutely I cannot make this up 94. He went from like 85 to 94. And he's oh my God, I went up nine points and I'm thinking, man, I would love to go up nine points eating some chocolate chip pancakes. So I think a lot of people, especially without diabetes, they see these changes in the graph like oh my goodness, my blood sugar just spiked. But you have to really put it in perspective. Was it a substantial enough spike to really warrant any sort of concern?

Philip Pape: 4:39

Yeah, no. So let's talk about that. Do people without? So we're kind of covering two populations here, but do people have to be concerned based on the range that they sit at with a baseline, or based on the variance? Who should even measure this?

Ben Tzeel: 4:54

Oh, it's tough. And so I think, if we're going diabetes specific first, just Google kind of, you know, parse it out Diabetes specific first, I would say it's more of the time that you are in range, right. So the standard for a Dexcom Pacific first, I would say it's more of the time that you are in range, right. So the standard for a Dexcom, which I would consider the gold standard for CGM, is typically, on default, 70 to 180. If you tell me you're 80%, 85% in range, you're doing awesome, because as people with diabetes, you're probably not going to be 100% in range unless you're just straight up not eating or you have everything just completely perfect and all you do is diabetes in your life, which is not realistic. But for people without diabetes I would say I mean it's tough right, because yes, you want to stay in a controlled range and ideally you don't ever want to go above 130, 140 if possible, and that would mean you ate a lot of carbs in one sitting and did not do anything to insulin sensitize yourself. So I think the biggest thing is variability matters, I think range matters, but I think time within the range, and if you don't have diabetes, the smaller the range the better, no-transcript.

Ben Tzeel: 6:13

Go without food for a second. What can you do outside of food to get your body in a prime position to be able to absorb the carbs and the sugar that's within the blood, right? And so, of course, there's two main ways the body can do it. There's insulin, right, of course, and then there's also with physical activity, using the calcium channels. You can basically do the same mechanism but not have insulin involved. So people like oh, if I take a walk after I eat, my blood sugar doesn't go as high because you've now started allowing your muscle to take up that glucose from the blood without doing anything else, and so that's what I typically refer to. So if I tell people hey, you're very active, you're walking, you're lifting, whatever you might be doing, that's going to put you in a prime position to have a little more variability and wiggle room, so your number may not spike as high depending on what types of carbs you're eating. So that's typically my primary way, I would say, from an insulin sensitivity standpoint.

Philip Pape: 7:07

Nailed it. There we go Cool, nice. So walking and lifting and muscle are some of the phrases you mentioned, and there's confusion around how that works. So I often use colloquial language here, for two reasons. One is hey, I don't know all the science at any one time out of my head, and number two is that's what people understand as analogies, right? So the idea that the bigger your muscles, the more they can hold and store in terms of glucose, as well as the more active you are, the more you shuttle those nutrients. You talked about calcium channels, so maybe break it down when you walk. Just in that moment, what is happening?

Ben Tzeel: 7:36

So basically, in a nutshell, just imagine that there's these gates, right, and you have to have a certain molecule attached to a gate, and there's four gates or a combination lock, whichever one's easier for you to imagine, and basically you just have to turn the lock to have each of the things in the code go, you know, get open, and once you do one, two, three, four, boom, it's open and the glucose can come in. So it's that simple and at that point, because you're walking and you're in motion, these gates will stay open, they'll continue sucking up glucose into the cell, pulling it out of the blood, and that allows your blood sugar to either not rise as high or, you know, in the case of someone whose blood sugar might be already high at baseline, to bring it down.

Philip Pape: 8:13

Awesome. And does being sedentary have an amplifying negative effect? And by that I mean, is it simply? This is an important question, right? Is it simply not giving you the benefit of walking, or is it amplifying the worsening of that effect of not using insulin?

Ben Tzeel: 8:28

Oh man, I love these questions. These are the things that I always wish people ask, but I never get asked. So I think it's. I think it's both right.

Ben Tzeel: 8:35

I think if somebody's body is used to a certain amount of activity at baseline and I've seen this in myself, I've seen this with patients all the time where, let let's say, your body's used to 8000 steps per day and today you just decided to hang out, have a lazy day, Netflix, whatever you are going to see that negative impact because your body is already used to a certain baseline and you're not even close to approaching that.

Ben Tzeel: 8:56

So you might notice insulin resistance just because you're not moving, compared to your norm. So I think there's that aspect of things where you're not giving your body what it wants. You start walking, your insulin sensitivity goes back, your blood sugar goes right back in the range. It is absolutely unreal how specific that is and I've seen it with myself and many, many, many people. But I also think just that baseline in general, if you're not moving, it's not doing you any favors and that doesn't mean you need to be in perpetual motion on a treadmill or a walking pad, but I think your body really appreciates. Our bodies are meant to move right. Our body needs to stay in motion.

Philip Pape: 9:28

Loves to move, loves to lift, loves to be functional and active in the world. And so, when you think of someone with diabetes like yourself, I've heard the claim and maybe it's true, right that the walking after meals is as effective, or more than metformin right Than a diabetes medication. What are your thoughts on that? Like, how can diabetics actually can they manage to an extent where they can limit or eliminate some of their pharmacology from their lifestyle? How important is all this for that?

Ben Tzeel: 9:54

Well, I would joke that I'm married to a pharmacist but I'm not the pharmacist so I can't answer completely right. But what I would say is, from an efficacy standpoint, walking after meals or really any sort of light activity post meal can do absolute wonders. You just can't expect it to do all of the heavy lifting metaphorically of the medication. So, for example, if someone's on insulin or if I'm on insulin and I go out to dinner and I know okay, I had a ton of carbs, I'm going to walk after this meal, it will definitely blunt the ability for my blood sugar to keep rising. But then if I walk for 10 or 15 minutes when I stop moving, if my blood sugar was going to keep going, it's going to keep going up, like it's not just going to completely stop and oh, everything's perfect now, but also it depends on the duration you're walking and a bunch of other factors.

Philip Pape: 10:36

That's good to know. So it's a matter of degrees and again, that reinforces why you need to measure that when it's a concern for you and when it's not. It sounds like just being active and lifting could probably be enough. I mean, I don't measure my, I've never measured my blood glucose and I don't plan to because you know, I kind of understand the science that you're talking about and I've had guests on who are big advocates for it and one of the reasons they say it's helpful for non-diabetics maybe is to see the results of your food balancing right, like when you balance your macros, or having enough protein, fats along with the carbs. How important is food balance and blood sugar management from that perspective?

Ben Tzeel: 11:14

I would say food balance, diabetes or not, food balance is going to be imperative. And, like you're saying right, if somebody's hey, my macros are being hit and I'm one of the people who's more liberal I don't care how you do it, as long as you do it. You can break the protein up and you know certain amounts, whatever fits in your life. But if you want intermittent fast, go for it. You want to be lower carb, go for it. If you hit your numbers, you hit your numbers.

Ben Tzeel: 11:35

But from a blood sugar standpoint, I will say having fat and protein at meals will help with not spiking quite as high as you possibly could. But on on the flip side, there's people who and I don't advocate for this way of eating but there's people in diabetes land who will basically just eat carbs, nothing else, just carbs. No, basically no fat, basically no protein, and their blood sugars are just fine because there's no potential for anything to slow down digestion, anything to induce insulin resistance. So there's these different camps and within diabetes land too, you get the people on the low carb side. So I think everyone always asks what's the best way to eat with it, and I don't think there's necessarily a perfect method or we would all do it, but on the flip side, I think that from a food standpoint, you have to have balance within it, otherwise you're going to spike more than you want to.

Philip Pape: 12:19

Okay, and then to extend that, very interesting, you talk about the like only carb approach. I feel bad for those guys because, as much as I love carbs, I got to have my protein when you're lifting. But it does bring up the restriction in the extreme camps and the reasons people do diets which are often, I'll say, flawed, and I it saddens me because if you're going to do something, it should be intentional for a purpose, and if you're doing it for the wrong purpose, then you're just shooting yourself in the foot. The big one is just cutting carbs for X, y, z, right. Cutting carbs to lose weight? No, that's energy balance. Cutting carbs because we think it's going to cause more fat storage, that's a whole topic about, again, insulin sensitivity and the flawed hypothesis related to fat burning versus glucose. It's just two energy systems that you know. It all balances out. What are your thoughts then on someone on diabetes who doesn't quite understand this and is afraid of carbs? What are your thoughts on that?

Ben Tzeel: 13:11

So my first thing is I give them an ice cream sundae. No, I'm totally kidding, but my thing with that is here's a pizza. First of all, pizza is like the biggest nightmare for most people with diabetes. We fix it, but something I would say is somebody who's nervous. It happens all the time because you get this dysfunctional relationship with food, because everyone says you can't have this, you can't have this, you can't have this, which does not serve anybody.

Ben Tzeel: 13:32

I'm always trying to figure out. My team's always trying to figure out where does this come from? Where does this stem from? Was it one bad incident? Was it one care provider early on in your diabetes career?

Ben Tzeel: 13:40

If we're going to call it that, that may have led you astray. And then, from there, how can we challenge this? Because I'm not asking you to eat a whole pizza, but we also can't have you concerned about a bowl of Cheetos that's next to you because you're concerned about what it's going to do to your blood sugar. So at the end of the day, it's going to be hey. How can we get you to slowly break out of this comfort zone? If it's something that you're interested, that will work for your blood sugar management? Because, to a degree. Are carbs needed? We could debate that and that's a fun. I love that topic in general but you don't necessarily need carbs if you live with diabetes. But a lot of people feel better, and so to me I'm like, if you can have a less restrictive life, you already have enough things going on with diabetes. Let's make it less restrictive but also be able to still balance your blood sugar. I don't see any problem with it. So slow, steady exposure, I think, will be what ultimately saves it.

Philip Pape: 14:26

Yeah, and that sounds sustainable to me. Um, so then let's tie this all back to lifting, which we alluded to a little bit, but one of my favorite topics, uh, specifically your approach to training that makes the most sense for building muscle from a blood management perspective. And if the answer is look just any training approach that's effective to build muscle and strength is is all you need. But where I'm going with this is there's some, I understand, there's some science around blood sugar management, insulin sensitivity, with the training session itself, the, the stimulus, recovery, adaptation, inflammation, post-training and then the fact that you have this tissue on your frame and like is it more important to focus on neuromuscular strength versus hypertrophy? You know like I'm giving you a lot here, but it's also a blank canvas, so go for it.

Ben Tzeel: 15:14

Oh man, these are like the types of questions that make me wish that I had stuck with the PhD I was doing for a while. I was doing that before I became a dietician. I was like I'm going to go get a PhD and only study diabetes and macronutrient composition and body composition, and I would have been doing exactly what you're describing. And then I was like I'm going to be a dietician, I like people. So, that being said, with all of these questions, I would say from a training perspective, it all kind of folds into itself right, because, like you said, having more muscle at baseline ideally means more insulin sensitivity, easier for the muscle to have the ability to bring glucose into the cell. Everybody is happier that way. But at the same time, from a training perspective, if you train at all, there's potentially up to a 72-hour window of increased insulin sensitivity, depending on your level of training.

Ben Tzeel: 15:56

Now, someone like me I've trained for I don't know more than half my life, so at that point I'm probably not getting a 72-hour boost, I'm probably getting it closer to a 24-hour boost, but it's still something.

Ben Tzeel: 16:06

So my first step is for most people they're not doing anything. Hey, let's get you started working out with something that you like. I don't really care what it is, preferably there's resistance training a few times a week, but as you really start getting getting into the weeds, how can we get you from a hypertrophy standpoint and then some of the muscular endurance standpoint? I think a combination of those two. It doesn't have to be perfect, doesn't be any sort of, you know, linear, undulating periodization, but something of that nature where we can get both. We get the best of both worlds, where, hey, there's going to be muscle on your frame but also you have the ability, if you decide to go, you know, do some sort of crazy 20 rep set, you can still get through it and still get the benefits from an insulin sensitivity standpoint, cause for hours later you're going to be especially the first 12 hours you're going to be more sensitive.

Philip Pape: 16:48

Nice and are you an advocate of bulking cutting? You know you prefer people to stay at maintenance and do it slowly. Does it matter? Like it's preference?

Ben Tzeel: 16:55

I think it matters where your blood sugar control is. First, because in my mind I don't really want you doing anything crazy until I know your numbers are not going to look like the Rocky Mountains, because otherwise, at the end of the day, you know when your blood sugar is higher, everything's just is more dysfunctional because your blood literally moves slower to the body. It's like syrup instead of normal blood flow. So that's not going to help you with recovery. And then with low blood sugars you can't train. So if your blood sugar is constantly bouncing, we got to stabilize that first. Ideally, if somebody's eating too little and their metabolic rate is slow, fix that at the same time. Then say, okay, now let's go, body comp, let's go.

Philip Pape: 17:28

Yeah, I'm a big advocate of that as well Priming your body for success in a maintenance mode where you're not stressing it out with these other things. So once you've got that in place, tying it back to carbs, do you find people does it make a difference when folks like really throw in the carbs into their diet and they're trying to build muscle, or do you find that it's very personal?

Ben Tzeel: 17:48

I find it tends to be more energy balance focus and protein focus. But what I will say is, from a carb perspective, if you're trying to lift heavier, of course you and I both know it's going to be like rocket fuel. So you tell someone who's eating 80 grams of carbs per day oh hey, we're, we're going to slowly up at. Oh, now you're at 160. And suddenly they're deadlifting more than they've ever done and they're feeling amazing. That's probably just a function of the carbs, but from a carb standpoint I don't really feel like it's 100% necessary, like I've done.

Ben Tzeel: 18:13

Like you mentioned earlier in the intro, I've gone all the way down to 40 grams of carbs per day. I think I was eating 3,300 at maintenance and I was still lifting heavy and it was rough but I could still do it. And then, on the flip side, I've gone all the way up to close to 500 per day and it was great. Lifting was great. My blood sugars, on the other hand, not as amazing. At the time I was also in college, so different conversation, but it's definitely possible.

Philip Pape: 18:35

Yeah, it's good to understand that the experimentation you went through itself is the missing piece for a lot of folks, in my opinion, in that, like I think of clients who start with me, and I think of one in particular who was afraid of carbs and wanted to work with me just to eat more carbs. He doesn't have diabetes, but my answer to a question would be a question like why don't you try it and let me know? Because at the end of the day, that's all you can tell. So it sounds like when you get the blood sugar managed properly, when you're eating in a balanced way, when you've got some reasonable targets for your performance, for your activity, you can then start to tweak the dials right and push one way or the other and see, and that sounds like a nice, safe approach to do it, even if you are a little bit fearful at first, because you've proved to yourself right through the data where you're at. So what kind of data, what kind of metrics do you like to track?

Ben Tzeel: 19:23

So, of course, blood sugars right. For most, most of the people that come to our practice, they have a continuous glucose monitor or they have some way to measure their blood sugar consistent. So that's that's going to be imperative because, again, everything in my world and our world, you know, branches out from that. But I would say total macros are going to be massive as well. And especially, you know the calories and the protein. And, for our sake, we look at the carbs simply as a function of how do they relate to the blood sugars? Because, again, if someone comes in and they're eating 400 carbs a day, I'm not going to suddenly cut them to 200. I'm not going to increase it either.

Ben Tzeel: 19:53

I want to get an idea of okay, if we have this here, are your numbers any more steady now that you're paying closer attention? And then, from a training perspective, okay, how many days per week are you training? What's your intensity of your training? I like when people track the numbers. Not everybody does. Everyone's got a different commitment to activity and you know this only too well. But if I can get that data too, I love it. We'll look at labs, we'll look at the whole picture as much as we can, but typically from a diabetes standpoint, can we look at the food? Can we look at the blood sugars? How do they interlink? And then, ultimately, what decisions can we make based on this?

Philip Pape: 20:24

Cool and you mentioned labs. So what? What are you looking at there for blood work?

Ben Tzeel: 20:27

So of course, a1c cause that's going to be technically the you know the average of the blood sugar over the last three months a little more complicated, but generally the gist that one's going to be a big one. We do like thyroid because for two reasons. One, and especially in type one diabetes land, where it's almost like a buy one, get one free for autoimmune disorders, thyroid tends to be one of the ones that goes, and so we like to keep just an eye on that to ensure that that's not getting out of hand. And you know we don't prescribe but we'll tell people. Hey, we see this. Maybe consider talking to your doc about this, your endocrinologist or PCP, whoever those Two of the big ones.

Ben Tzeel: 20:57

We'll look at the CBC, cmp, all the lipids, just to make sure everything's behaving itself, and every now and then there's something that's off, but it's nothing typically wild. And for some of the men, especially as men get older, we do like to look at the testosterone, similar with women. We'll look at the estrogen because that can have a pretty big impact on blood sugar as well, especially as those levels start to decline.

Philip Pape: 21:18

Yeah, yeah, makes total sense. So then, like with the A1C, another thought that came to mind is the correlation between that and what are the biggest factors? Right, and I know, just simply managing your weight and body fat. You know, people are always surprised to learn how much of an impact that does have. Independent of everything else. What are your thoughts on, like, the two or three biggest hitters for A1C?

Ben Tzeel: 21:37

I would say the first one for A1C, I think far and away is is your? If you're on insulin, is your dosing on point? If you're not on insulin, is your medication on point? Because without that, at baseline right, you're going to be already behind the eight ball. And I don't care if someone's the best carb counter in the world, if your insulin to carb ratio is wrong, it's not going to matter. Your blood sugar is going to be all over the place. So that you know dosing mixed with carb counting and, technically, protein and fat counting, that's always far and away number one.

Ben Tzeel: 22:03

I would say number two would be the activity side of things, because with that I remember vividly, there was one patient usually trains like four or five days a week and he, for whatever reason, for two weeks just didn't train. His blood sugar average went up 15 points just from not training. Ate the same, everything else the same, just went up 15 points, which in A1C world that's going to be almost a half a point or a little more than half. That's a substantial difference, especially from a long-term complication risk. So that's going to always be number two. And then number three for A1C believe it or not, stress, stress will wreck you, absolutely wreck you.

Philip Pape: 22:36

Yeah, you mentioned stress. Isn't that the common denominator with everything, literally? You mentioned stress. Isn't that the common denominator with everything Like even um? I just recorded an episode about chronic inflammation and how, like, the biggest drivers are related to lifestyle. I mean, visceral fat is a driver, but, like you know, you and I talked about being sedentary and not having that blood flow and how that affects insulin sensitivity and blood sugar. Well, that's also stress. That's lifestyle. It's all interrelated and yet it's one of the things that it's not sexy to talk about. Right? Sleep and stress. We all need more sleep and less stress. So, speaking of stress, I think about things that stress our body. Right, one of those is a calorie deficit, but another would be potentially fasted training. I'm curious of your thoughts about fasted training. Yeah, yeah, just go.

Ben Tzeel: 23:19

As I sit here, literally having training, trained, fasted, right before we're talking right now.

Philip Pape: 23:24

OK so.

Ben Tzeel: 23:25

I personally do it. Some people love it, some people hate it. The reason I do it is twofold right, I don't have any insulin on board from any sort of boluses, which in my world, just makes life slightly simpler. So I don't have to worry about my blood sugar potentially falling off a cliff. And I don't have to worry about my blood sugar potentially falling off a cliff and I don't have to worry about any food in my system for that. Some people don't like it because oh, there should be something in your system before.

Ben Tzeel: 23:45

For me it's like from a muscle standpoint too. I know there's the potential for breakdown. I know there's ways to mitigate that. I just see as the tradeoff. I'm like, if I still hit my targets more down the average person, yes, but if it's, it's kind of in my mind it's like SPF 30, where you block 98% of the sun, or SPF 70 block 99. It's like is that little teeny 1% difference going to really make that big a difference? If my numbers are happier, which is going to make everything better in the longterm, I'll take the happier blood sugars. But I think it's. It's totally viable. Some people if their blood sugar still crashed, then they need to have a concern with that, but we'll work through it. But I I personally do it and I love it.

Philip Pape: 24:24

Cool, so you do it for blood sugar purposes.

Ben Tzeel: 24:27

Mainly blood sugar. Also just convenience, like I like just having it done, then I can do what I want to do. Cool.

Philip Pape: 24:32

Which is with intention, with purpose, like I think that's the main theme, is that people are thinking I should do fasted training because it's better for fat loss or something, and I and I think that that doesn't work. And also you, like you said you're you've got to look at the the cons and they're actually insignificant, like we know now from protein, recent protein research, that you could distribute it just about however you want and it's like like a couple percent difference right In outcomes. You know, and you it sounds like you've been training a long time so you've like got a big baseline, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, I just wanted to get that out for people. It's like sure you can do it if it's convenient. It's like intermittent fasting, like the main reason you do that is it's probably convenient for you and maybe it helps you control your calories, right. Like it's not autophagy and longevity and all that stuff. Do you agree?

Ben Tzeel: 25:16

I'm going to laugh and say this too. I also intermittent fast and I only do it because I like eating two larger meals. I do not care about everything else. Like, that's just how I like to do it, and from an esophageal everything. If there's a little benefit, cool. But I'm not doing it because, oh, it'll.

Philip Pape: 25:29

You know for sure, help me live eight minutes longer per day, like no, it's just, you know, if you like it, like it, you know carnivore, keto, this and the other. I'm like look, if you like meat and liver and eggs as your diet, you love it. You think you can do that the rest of your life. You feel great, you perform, you're not worried about the consequences of not having fiber. You know whatever, uh, go for it, right, like it's not. I'm not here to tell you what to do or what not to do, but rather to say that don't let others fearmonger you into thinking you have to do this. It's like the two opposites. What is your biggest boogeyman right now that we haven't touched on in the industry?

Ben Tzeel: 26:09

Oh geez. I mean, besides carnivore which I don't even think carnivore is a problem I just don't think most people can stick to it for longer than three weeks. Yeah, that's the main thing. Yeah, Okay, glp ones Not even a question. Okay, okay, I don't think that's even a question. I think because it's everywhere, it's pervasive and it's it's fine. But I think a lot of people view them in a really skewed way, diabetes or not. Continue.

Philip Pape: 26:31

Tell me more when you say cause I yeah, no, we're probably on the same page with this, the nuance, but yeah, let me hear it.

Ben Tzeel: 26:37

So with it I mean the irony is they were initially developed for people with diabetes right, and for people with diabetes they can do amazing work and I'm grateful that they exist. But then, when it became old, they can help with weight loss. Everyone just assumes I'm going to take this thing, it'll be fine, and then I'll lose all this weight. And I mean the studies you've seen on the study show that once you get off of it, if you don't change anything, you're you're done for. You're just going to gain it all back.

Ben Tzeel: 26:59

And I tell people I'm like it's just, it's basically a manufactured calorie deficit because you're feeling disgusting so you don't want to eat anything. It's like you could do the same thing. You know you want to track and put in a little effort, but I always will say if you want to use it and I've had patients use them with amazing success and I think they're incredible If they're used as a springboard if you do everything else with them, if you do the nutrition side, if you do the exercise side and then from a blood sugar standpoint in our population, if you do the blood sugar have that on point it will work incredibly. I've had people lose well over 100 pounds and they're amazing, but the key is to not have it. So you're so reliant on them that the moment that they're out of the picture, you're completely SOL. That's the problem, and I think so many people just want to use them as this crutch and say it's the magic answer, and in that case it's not.

Philip Pape: 27:40

Yeah, okay, I 100% agree. I mean, that's what it comes down to. It's like and I know you referred to your holy trinity, I think, right, nutrition, training, blood sugar, and I guess for me, without thinking as much about the blood sugar, for nine diabetics it's like nutrition, training and lifestyle. Same idea. The whole thing is use it as a tool to help with the potentially gene-related appetite dysfunction you have with your brains, which we know is a real thing and it's exacerbated based on your history, and then do the lifestyle and then come off of it. And I also have worked with clients who, like on terzapatide, which is one of the more powerful ones who say like look, I am doing a lot of the things, but now I'm worried that when I come off, you know I'm just going to start gaining all the weight back and I think there's like a titration method for that. So, given that you work with diabetic population who's probably taking the original Ozempic right, like the OG for diabetes, how do you work with them to come off of that as a strategy?

Ben Tzeel: 28:32

And so the fun thing it's the two things I'll say. One is for Manjaro. For whatever reason, it just seems like it works better. Again, I've never taken it personally, but I've seen in the, in the probably three dozen people we've had who are on it, it always seems like Manjaro skews a better result. So Zempix kind of there calms the noise, but that's just. I forgot to mention that before.

Ben Tzeel: 28:49

So I want to make sure.

Ben Tzeel: 28:50

I said that, but from a from a titrating off standpoint, my biggest thing is making sure, from a metabolism standpoint, if we can make sure that you are eating an amount that's still reasonable.

Ben Tzeel: 28:59

Maybe you're in a deficit, ideally you're still in a deficit, but then we can slowly start to rebuild it back up and have them say, hey, I can know I can hit these targets every single day. I can hit these targets every single day. Then I have confidence that, as I need to reverse diet, if I choose to reverse diet and I want to eat more, I'm going to do so in a slow and controlled manner, because otherwise that's exactly what's going from a hunger standpoint, is going to go nuts and they're going to eat a bunch of more food than they're used to and the weight's going to come back, so it really just becomes hey, can we get you in a position where, as the doctor, I don't do any of the titration right, but as the doctor starts to bring it down, how can we make sure everything else in your life is set up for success?

Philip Pape: 29:43

So you don't have to stress fail-safes in place yeah, it's a good way to put it, Fail-safes and the titration and kind of increasing the calories or even going to maybe a little bit more aggressively over maintenance as you do it. Whatever strategy makes sense for folks, so that once the appetite kicks in you're actually eating enough, that appetite's not as much a concern versus continuing in a dieting phase as you come off, because that's definitely going to be challenging.

Ben Tzeel: 30:05

Not only is it going to be hellish, but then, if you're able to change the frame and say, hey, you are likely going to be eating a little bit more, your appetite's going to come back. How can we use this to our advantage? Are we going to go into maybe a more of a strength building phase, if you're able to get the mindset shift with that too?

Philip Pape: 30:25

I think it can do amazing things, but someone has to be ready for that point, or otherwise they're going to absolutely fail, totally agree. All right, I'm switching it up a little bit here because insulin pumps are an area that I know nothing about. I've known diabetes. I've seen the various technology. I always thought it was kind of interesting how they work and how they've evolved over time. But I guess the question is just maybe tell us a little bit about how it works. But also, do you know, do you take breaks from using it? How does that affect the blood sugar management with the other strategies that you work on?

Ben Tzeel: 30:48

Oh man, I was going to say I've been on a pump on and off, but mostly on since 2002, which is kind of crazy. So I've I've seen the evolution of a pump where you have to do all the math yourself and plug in everything to a pump where it does a lot of the work for you not everything, but a lot of it for you and can make your life a lot easier. So, in a nutshell, you know someone without a pump. You have type one diabetes or you're insulin dependent. You're taking an injection every time you eat, you're taking some sort of basal insulin, long acting, that will last the entire day. What a pump will do is it'll just be constantly giving you teeny little amounts 24, seven to function as that basal and every time you eat a meal you dial up and say, hey, I want to eat a meal, this is 30 grams of carbs. Boom, you take your dose and now you go eat and you're fine. So it makes life a lot simpler because you're taking fewer injections as long as the pump is working and there's algorithms now that can make life a lot easier. Oh, it sees, your blood sugar is going up a little bit. Here's a little bit insulin for you, so you don't have to actively correct it. So from a simplicity standpoint, it can help a lot. It also can shut your insulin down if it notices you're trending down. So for a lot of parents with kids, super, super helpful with these algorithms, for a lot of people that make life easier. It's amazing.

Ben Tzeel: 31:51

But I would say a couple of things that people get hung up on is they expect it to do everything for them, which it's not going to.

Ben Tzeel: 31:56

You still have to have some sort of active managing role.

Ben Tzeel: 31:58

But when the sites don't work like I'm on an Omnipod right now, which is the wireless one and when the sites don't work you're not getting insulin or you're not getting as much as you think you're getting, so suddenly you could eat a meal it's the same meal you eat every day but if you're not getting the amount of insulin you thought, your blood sugar is shooting up and there's no real way to bring it down until you replace that site or take an injection. So that's one of the big I'm going to call it cautionary but one of the big things that people have to realize is you have to have a backup plan for that, and there are times where I've gotten frustrated because I've had this for almost 26 years. I have scar tissue, so sometimes I run into issues of sight. So that's when I'll take a break, like you're alluding to, where I'll say I'm going to go on injections for a few days, or for a few weeks or a few months, depending how frustrated I am, and then I can always come back.

Philip Pape: 32:42

Cool man, Thanks for explaining that. Yeah, I wasn't 100% sure how they worked and wanted the audience to understand, and it's just another tool that you've got to be aware of, obviously as part of the strategy for managing the blood sugar. So kind of related or maybe not related, but I think you've said that diabetes can be a strength rather than a limitation. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you mean by that can be a strength rather than a limitation.

Allan: 33:04

I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you mean by that. Hi, my name is Alan and I just want to give a shout out to Philip, pape of Wits and Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well-being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching, support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, philip Pate is the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, philip.

Ben Tzeel: 33:55

So I think what was really tough was I was diagnosed at seven, right? So you're seven, you want to just make friends and have fun, live a second grade life, right? And you're not paying attention to this thing. And I kept getting told no, no, no, no, no. You can't get strong, you can't play sports, you can't lift, you can't have the cupcakes with your friends and it got really frustrating.

Ben Tzeel: 34:18

And so over the years at first I was I'd run into resistance, but I started realizing that the resilience standpoint I think it really builds a lot of resilience and it forces you to build a lot of resilience.

Ben Tzeel: 34:27

And also thinking about it from just a health standpoint, from you know, if you're looking at it as a positive, you're way more in tune with your health than the average person. Like somebody you know in a conversation who's listening to this is probably already in tune with lifting and working out and food, but someone who's not, you know, relative to that, you're way more. You have to be more in tune. I have to know everything that's going on in my body. I have to be paying attention to my sleep. There's 40 plus factors that can impact your blood sugar at any given moment. I need to be paying attention to these things. So, while it takes up a lot of bandwidth, I feel like from a longevity standpoint as long as blood sugars are maintained, I think in a really weird way this is keeping me on my toes and more accountable, because you get real immediate feedback if you're not paying attention.

Philip Pape: 35:07

Yeah, yeah, To the point where it threatens your very physiology and your life. I imagine you know not to find a point on it. So then, based on that, what you've learned and kind of the insights you've had, are there a couple of big lessons that you like to share with folks, whether they are dealing with diabetes or not, for training, nutrition, whatever, and it could be mindset, could be psychology you've taken away from that experience.

Ben Tzeel: 35:29

I think one huge thing I've seen again with myself with patients is you have to everyone has to understand, from a consistency standpoint, you're not gonna just explode to perfection right away.

Ben Tzeel: 35:40

And so with your blood sugars right, if you're like my, numbers are way higher than they should be, you can't expect in two weeks your blood sugars are going to be perfect. If you're trying to lose 50 pounds, you didn't take two weeks to, you know, gain the 50 pounds. You're probably not going to take two weeks to lose it. So I think, just keeping expectations tempered and enjoying the ride along the way it's with life in general, lifting and lifting pretty moderate, heavy to heavy, a good amount of time, typically solves a lot of problems that otherwise would you know, would be very nasty. So I've just, the more I've done it, I've like, oh, I got into this when I was 14. Like I really love lifting, I don't think I understood the benefit at the time and the significance you start when you're 14 for aesthetics and for sports, but realizing as a lifelong thing this is massive for people with diabetes.

Philip Pape: 36:32

Yeah, and I would extend that to say it is massive for everyone, because that message is the message I try to share on every podcast I go on and I'm surprised sometimes when I talk to a health coach who's like, well, I don't really lift weight, like you're missing out on the biggest piece of the pie in my opinion. So you know, I love what you said about. You know, you can't explode to perfection. We are not just a society, but as a species we want to get things solved. Like once we know we have a goal, we want to go after it, we want to get it solved and we're like you know how do we make that happen as quickly as possible? And so when you combine that with realistic expectations like it's going to take time and enjoying the ride, meaning you know what you could still get dopamine hits and short-term wins. Anyway, if you're smart about, like, constructing the process the right way, it can all work out.

Philip Pape: 37:17

I was talking to Nick Delgadillo. He's the CEO of Starting Strength Gyms and he was talking about how, like, new lifters will get that self-motivation once they start seeing the results come fast, especially when you're you know, you're squatting three times a week and weight's going up every time, but then after a certain period of time it starts to get really hard and the progress starts to slow down and you can't just necessarily be a lifter for its own sake, right, you have to kind of parlay that into maybe a sport or something you enjoy or whatever. And I joked because I said, well, I actually do love lifting and some people just love it for its own sake. He's like cool, you're the easiest person to coach, aren't you? What are your thoughts on that in terms of people who don't lift regularly and are listening, being consistent, getting in the gym, thinking it's not something for me or I don't like it? How do I get to like it? You know those things. How do I start? How do I be consistent? How do I become a lifter for life?

Ben Tzeel: 38:08

I think, and I think for some people I've talked to especially, they're even nervous about the gym, right, because there's, oh my God, everyone's going to be watching me and looking. When nobody actually cares and I think they'll be nice and supportive, but if they're in their heads I'll be like let's get you started with something at home. You know, you can get a couple of resistance bands you can get, you can use your body weight and you can do a lot with just those two things. But you know, then you add in, you know, a couple of little weights and then, when you're comfortable, hey, let me go into the gym and let me make it a twice a week thing. I'm going twice a week for half an hour. I's add that third day, let's add that fourth day, let's extend it by 10 minutes.

Ben Tzeel: 38:43

Suddenly you look back and a year from now, you just went from I'm barely squeaking in there twice a week for 30 minutes to I'm here four times a week for an hour. And as you start to see those games like you were alluding to, people start to see that and they're like I want to keep seeing these games, I want to see this progress. I see the changes in my body, and that's, I feel like, how people tend to at least from what I've seen fall in love with. It is they see the progress, but then also they don't realize until they look back whoa, I'm here way more than I'd ever thought I would be.

Philip Pape: 39:10

For sure. Take the action, get the result, get the motivation and make sure to look back what's happened in the before and after you have to, and I'm bad at that myself.

Ben Tzeel: 39:26

There are times where I'm like, wow, I just didn't. And I'm like, oh, but I was supposed to do that, and so that's a problem that I've worked on all the time where I'm like I need to give myself some credit. But to that point right. I vividly remember to one patient where she started out eating 40 grams of protein a day and she thought that was a lot, and a year later she was at 150 grams, just plowing, and she was like I ate 150 grams of protein every day. I'm like, yeah, remember when you could only eat 40? And she's like, how did I live? I was like, great, great question. Only you can answer that.

Philip Pape: 39:45

Exactly.

Ben Tzeel: 39:46

But that's, I think, a way to kind of summarize that part where you don't realize how much you've done until you look back and say, wow, that was awesome.

Philip Pape: 39:53

For sure. Always good to have some mindset psychology on the show, because that's what a lot of times people struggle with, not just the nuts and bolts and the information. So we've addressed some fear mongering, we've addressed some myths, we've addressed blood sugar management. Speaking of blood sugar, I guess you and I talked before we recorded about some of the hot, spicy topics. I guess what would be something that's, I guess, on the dangerous side that is being promoted by the gurus and the fitfluencers related to blood sugar, that they just totally get it wrong and it could actually hurt people maybe.

Ben Tzeel: 40:23

Man, that is a good one, because I feel like a lot of them everybody still talks about you know, oh, when you're done working out, you better have this massive insulin spike. So you better spike your blood sugar with all these carbs and, like I wouldn't even say it's necessarily dangerous, it's been around since I started lifting no-transcript. Probably not going to work for me. You don't need to actually do that. From what I've seen in the research has shown you don't really have to do that either, but I haven't seen tons of craziness. I'm sure there is. I also don't always go looking for it, which is probably for my own sanity's sake, because I see enough stuff about nasty blood sugars and how to cure your diabetes and getting told that you can eat random things. So I see enough of that and I'm like I don't want to fill my brain with more trash.

Philip Pape: 41:18

All right, I get that man. Yeah, I wish I could just like get rid of social media altogether and just delete it all and there's days I'm like could I live off the grid, would it be fun?

Ben Tzeel: 41:28

And then I'm like, no, I'm like two days, I want to see what people are doing.

Philip Pape: 41:30

Exactly All right. So then let's go more moderate approach. I alluded to fiber once, I think, talking about carnivore. What role does it play in blood sugar control? Is it necessary Because some people say, well, it's not essential, just like carbs aren't essential? What are your thoughts on fiber?

Ben Tzeel: 41:44

I don't know if I'd go so far to say necessary, but I would say doing two things. One would be slowing down the potential blood sugar spike. So you eat a meal and if your blood sugar would have gone I'm just going to throw out arbitrary numbers If it would have gone to 180, if you've got a good amount of fiber, maybe you're only going to 140 just because it slows digestion so much. I think and I don't have all of the fun super in-depth data on this, but I do know from a gut health perspective there's a lot of links with gut health and blood sugars and the microbiome and the different possibilities of if your microbiome's off, your blood sugar control could get worse. That's, I think, the bigger thing with fiber is. I think there's a lot of impact on the gut that people don't pay attention to.

Philip Pape: 42:24

Yeah, I agree, and it's. I don't think there are any very many people who are educated enough or expert enough to convey the full answer, but, um, there is someone. Oh man, what's his name? Justin Cottle. Do you know Justin Cottle? He's, he's a. He is an anatomy researcher. Uh, he worked at the anatomy lab. It's the big one. I forget the name he's. He's also a YouTuber now.

Philip Pape: 42:46

Really nice guy, actually remind me a lot of him Cause he's. He's very nuanced. You know, positive guy, doesn't want to like fear monger, any of this stuff and he'll give you a really good explanation of the whole, uh, digestive tract and like how fiber affects the microbiota and how diverse sources of fiber and different even eating different apples on different days, you know the different pectins from the different skins will feed that bacteria and we just don't know. So I worry that someone eating carnivore 20 years from now will they have some effect that we haven't been able to study yet because of the length. But you know, we know having fiber has positive outcomes. So I don't know what having no fiber, what the outcome is going to be, is the question.

Ben Tzeel: 43:24

Yeah, I don't know if I want to know, honestly, because even in, like the keto people, at least they're getting fiber. It may be crazy amounts that might be manufactured, but it's something.

Philip Pape: 43:33

For sure, for sure, all right, man. Well, with all of this stuff, is there anything that we didn't cover? Anything you wished I would have asked, and then what would your answer be?

Ben Tzeel: 43:42

Man, honestly it's one of the most fun in-depth ones I've gotten to do in a long time, so I'm feeling like we covered a lot of stuff. I don't want to overdo it, Cool man.

Philip Pape: 43:52

No, that works. That works. I think you covered all the main points. Where do you want people to look yourself up and learn more about this?

Ben Tzeel: 43:58

I would say if people are interested, diabetes or not, my team and I are able to work with you, know people from all walks of life who want that nutritional insight, especially in relation to blood sugars, but at man of zeal on Instagram and Tik TOK. So M a N O F T Z E E L. And then your diabetes insidercom is the place for you know what our team does. We've got free stuff on there. We've got tons of different freebies, opt-ins and knowledge for you to be able to learn more about diabetes and make your life better.

Philip Pape: 44:25

And there's a podcast too, right.

Ben Tzeel: 44:27

There is a podcast, the your Diabetes Insider podcast, very cleverly named so that one's a lot of fun if you want to hear some more real, raw rants and fun nuanced diabetes knowledge.

Philip Pape: 44:36

For sure, yeah, so we'll throw those in the show notes. Manofzeal at IG. That's with the silent T in there Yourdiabetesinsidercom and yourdiabetesinsiderdiabetes. I'm sorry, I flipped them. Which is the domain? The domain is.

Ben Tzeel: 44:50

Oh, yourdiabetesinsidercom and then yourdiabetesinsiderpodcast. Okay, okay, so super original on the podcast no no no, that's good.

Philip Pape: 44:57

I switched the podcast name, All right, man. Well, yeah, no, it's been a lot of fun. Ben, I appreciate your approach to all of this and I like that people have, you know, the flexibility no matter whether they're on the diabetes or not to really kind of eat and train in a lot of different ways, as long as they're doing it and living an active lifestyle right. Just not for blood sugar alone, but just just to thrive. So thank you so much for sharing that message.

Ben Tzeel: 45:19

I'm just grateful that I got to chat with you and hopefully educate some people, diabetes or not, that you know it doesn't have to restrict your life.

Philip Pape: 45:26

Awesome. So great for having you on. Thanks for coming on.

Ben Tzeel: 45:29

Thank you.

The 2-Minute Walking Hack That Builds 47% More Muscle | Ep 342

Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS to see exactly how these walking breaks impact your daily calorie burn and support your muscle-building or fat loss goals or go to witsandweights.com/blog/macrofactor

--

Can you immediately increase muscle building by 47%?

It's 3 PM on a Tuesday, and you've been glued to your desk since 8 AM. Your back is stiff, your energy is crashing, and you can feel that familiar tightness setting in from hours of sitting.

But here's what you don't realize: that prolonged sitting isn't just making you uncomfortable. It's actively blocking your muscle protein synthesis, sabotaging your ability to build muscle from the food you eat.

A groundbreaking 2022 study revealed a shocking truth: prolonged sitting can reduce your muscle protein synthesis by nearly 50%, effectively blocking your body's ability to build muscle from the protein you eat. 

This happens through multiple pathways we'll discuss, and there's a stupidly simple solution that can have the opposite effect and boost muscle building by 47%!

Main Takeaways:

• Prolonged sitting creates "anabolic resistance" that can reduce muscle protein synthesis by up to 50%

• A simple walking hack can completely reverse this effect and boost muscle building by 47%

• The biological mechanisms: improved blood flow, enhanced amino acid delivery, reactivated mTOR signaling, and better insulin sensitivity

• Compound benefits beyond muscle building include stable energy, better blood sugar control, improved recovery

Study Mentioned:

• Study by Moore et al. (2022) published in The Journal of Physiology

Timestamps:

0:01 - The hidden cost of prolonged sitting
4:05 - Why sitting blocks muscle gains
8:08 - How 2-minute breaks reverse the damage
11:16 - Practical tips to implement TODAY
14:15 - Compound effects beyond muscle building

The Walking Habit That Supercharges Muscle Growth Without Extra Training

If you’re lifting consistently, nailing your protein, and staying on top of your recovery, you’re already doing what most people won’t.

But if you spend most of the day glued to a desk, there’s something else quietly working against you. Something that could be cutting your muscle-building potential nearly in half.

In this episode, I’m sharing a shockingly simple habit backed by a 2022 study that increased muscle protein synthesis by 47% in people who were otherwise sedentary. And no, it’s not another brutal training protocol or a fancy supplement. It’s walking. For two minutes. Every 30 minutes.

Here’s why it matters, how it works, and exactly how to put it into practice.

Sitting for Hours Shuts Off Muscle Growth

Even if you train hard and eat well, sitting for prolonged periods creates something researchers call “anabolic resistance.” Your muscles become less responsive to protein intake and less likely to trigger muscle protein synthesis (MPS), which is the process of building new muscle tissue.

This resistance isn’t just about aging or training frequency. It happens because of three specific things when you sit for hours on end:

1. Reduced blood flow means nutrients and amino acids don’t reach your muscle tissue efficiently.

2. Suppressed mTOR signaling (the main switch for muscle building) makes your body less responsive to those nutrients even when they do arrive.

3. Temporary insulin resistance slows down nutrient uptake and leaves your muscles less primed to build.

And this happens even if you eventually get your steps in. Sitting for hours creates a separate problem that your 10,000 steps later in the day won’t necessarily undo.

The 2-Minute Solution

Researchers at the University of Texas found that simply breaking up sitting time with two-minute walking breaks every 30 minutes increased MPS by 47%. In the group that sat continuously, MPS was nearly 50% lower compared to those who stood up and walked briefly.

Let that sink in. No new workouts. No extra cardio. Just walking for two minutes, every 30 minutes.

These movement breaks restored blood flow, improved insulin sensitivity, and reactivated the mTOR pathway. That created what’s known as a “permissive anabolic environment,” which basically means your body was primed to use protein for muscle building instead of letting it go to waste.

How to Implement This Without Overhauling Your Day

Here’s the most important part. This strategy works best when you make it part of your daily rhythm. Here’s how I suggest doing it:

• Take short walks after meals. Start with five to ten minutes after breakfast, lunch, and dinner. These count toward the benefit and are perfect for improving insulin sensitivity.

• Set a timer or phone reminder. Every 30 minutes, get up and walk around for two minutes. Use this time to grab water, go to the bathroom, stretch, or even return a quick call.

• Gamify your breaks. Keep a tally of how many movement snacks you complete during your workday. Add some light stretching or step outside to refresh your head.

• Don’t overthink it. This isn’t about burning calories or breaking a sweat. It’s about flipping the switch back to “muscle-building mode” throughout the day.

This protocol doesn’t replace your training, protein intake, or recovery. It enhances all of them by creating the internal environment your body needs to actually use what you’re already doing.

Other Benefits of Walking Breaks Beyond Muscle

While the increase in MPS is the headline, the ripple effects go further:

• Fewer energy crashes in the afternoon

• Better blood sugar regulation and fewer cravings

• Improved nutrient partitioning (more of your food going to muscle, not fat)

• Faster recovery from workouts

• Improved sleep and reduced stiffness

You’re not just stopping the negative effects of sitting. You’re compounding your results by reinforcing every other healthy behavior in your day.

Stop Obsessing Over Training and Start Leveraging the Other 160 Hours

We obsess over training plans, macros, and supplements, yet we ignore the bulk of our time each week. If you're in the gym four or five hours a week, you still have over 160 waking hours left. These movement snacks take up just a handful of minutes, but the returns add up fast.

Even if you’re only getting in 10 or 12 breaks per day, you're creating dozens of new windows for MPS to fire, nutrient delivery to improve, and your body to stay in an anabolic state longer.

This is one of the simplest, lowest-effort strategies I’ve ever recommended. You don’t need to change your workout split. You don’t need to eat differently. You just need to move a little more, more often.

What to Do Starting Today

• Walk for two minutes every 30 minutes, especially during work hours.

• Use post-meal walks as anchors throughout the day.

• Set up systems so you don’t have to remember (timers, reminders, habit trackers).

• Don’t wait until your training or nutrition stalls. Start now and build momentum.

If you want to see how these changes affect your calorie burn, download Macrofactor and start tracking. Use code WITSANDWEIGHTS for two free weeks.

As you start adding these movement snacks, your total daily energy expenditure (TDEE) will likely rise, and so will your food flexibility, your fat loss, and your strength gains.

The data is clear. The strategy is easy. And you’ve got nothing to lose.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

It's 3 pm on a Tuesday and you've been glued to your desk since 8 am. Your back is stiff, your energy is crashing and you can feel that familiar tightness setting in from hours of sitting. But here's what you don't realize that prolonged sitting isn't just making you uncomfortable, it is actively blocking your muscle protein synthesis. It's sabotaging your ability to build muscle from the food you eat. There's a recent study that uncovered something that's going to change how you think about muscle building, and it's not just about what happens when you train or even what you eat. Today, you'll discover exactly why sitting blocks your gains, the surprising intervention that reverses this effect, and how to turn every single day into a muscle building opportunity. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're looking at a muscle building strategy. That's probably gonna surprise you a little bit and it might be the missing piece in your puzzle. If you have a desk job, if you sit around for hours on end, like many of us tend to do these days, you know that feeling when you think you're doing everything right with your training, your nutrition, but then the progress isn't quite there. Your metabolism isn't quite where you think it should be. Well, there's something in your daily routine that could be working against you significantly, and the solution is so simple. You might think I'm making it up, but it's actually from a study from 2022. It's not bro science, it's not a theory. It comes from actual research published in the journal of physiology that that reveals how two-minute movement breaks can dramatically increase your body's ability to build muscle from the food you're already eating, from the rest of the lifestyle that you already have. And I actually learned about this from Dr Bill Campbell's latest Body by Science review. He highlighted just how significant these findings are and they kind of are floating under the radar. I wanted to bring them to the fore with this episode. And this works whether you're in a building phase or a cutting phase, whether you're a beginner, advanced. It doesn't require any additional recovery time. It is so stupidly simple to implement that I'm going to be telling everybody about this now, and myself I'm actually creating reminders and systems to make sure that I do this as well.

Philip Pape: 2:29

Now, before we get into that science, if you want to see exactly how these walking breaks impact your daily calorie burn and support your muscle building fat loss goals in the numbers. I would recommend. The perfect tool for you is Macrofactor. It is the food logging app that I use. All my clients use it. I talk about it all the time. It adapts to your calorie, or I should say it adapts your calorie and macro targets based on your actual metabolism. And when you start incorporating the walking snacks like we're going to talk about today, you're going to see that reflected in your expenditure tracking. So the sooner you start tracking, the better, so you can kind of correlate how impactful these changes can be. And I would love to hear from you when you do it, when you make the change, when you take action from what we talk about today to see how it affects your metabolism. It should make things easier in terms of how much you get to eat and the responsiveness in terms of fat loss and muscle building. So just go ahead and download Macrofactor. Use my code WITSANDWEIGHTS all one word to try it free for two weeks. I'll include the link in the show notes. But, honestly, just pause right now. Go grab it and start tracking, because you're going to want to start tracking this immediately after today's episode.

Philip Pape: 3:27

Now I want to break this episode into four segments. First, I'm going to explain what is happening in your body during prolonged sitting and why it's blocking your muscle gains. Very, very important, because we think of it as a health issue, but it's actually physiologically completely changing the mechanisms that are occurring in your body. That's first. Second, we're going to get into the fascinating biology behind why these simple movement breaks can be so effective. Third, I'll give you the practical tips, the protocols you can implement. And then, finally, we're going to look out at some compound effects that go beyond just muscle building. So you want to listen to the whole episode to get all of that.

Philip Pape: 4:05

Now I'm going to start with something that's probably going to sound familiar, because it's a pattern that I see a lot with folks that I talk to every day, where you are pretty consistent with all the things right. You're training maybe three, four days a week, with progressive overload. You're nailing your targets, your protein, your calories, you're getting decent recovery and sleep. You know the big pillars, but somehow the muscle building progress either has stalled or you know your metabolism is lower than you expect it to be, or you just want better results than you're getting, and the missing piece often is not the gym or the kitchen. It's in the eight to 10 hours that you are spending sitting at a desk, hardly getting up. Yes, being sedentary and not getting up is its own independent risk factor for health, but also it impacts your muscle building potential in a very surprising way. So if you're just getting up for bathroom breaks, you're just getting up for lunch and not much else, even though you're going to the gym, even though you might be getting eight, 10,000 steps a day in very deliberate walks or movement outside of those hours, the prolonged sitting itself creates a cascade of biological changes that directly interfere with your body's ability to build muscle, and that's what I want to talk about.

Philip Pape: 5:20

So let's start with the actual process of MPS, or muscle protein synthesis, and what it is. When it's happening. It's effectively something that goes on all day. Your body's either synthesizing muscle or breaking it down, and prolonged sitting creates what researchers call anabolic resistance. So think of it this way you consume 30 grams of protein and normally your muscles will go ahead and use those amino acids and build new tissue. Right, this assumes you have enough energy overall, but when you've been sitting for hours, some mechanisms actually shut down that process.

Philip Pape: 5:52

The first thing is blood flow to your muscles drops significantly. We know about not only the circulation of blood, but also the nutrient delivery slows down when you sit too long right. These amino acids in your bloodstream then can't get to your muscle tissue efficiently because the blood flow in your capillaries is restricted period. That's a huge impact right there. It also has other health impacts downstream, but even just for muscles that's what happens. Second, the mTOR pathway. You've probably heard of the mTOR pathway, which we believe is like the master switch for muscle protein synthesis, and it gets downregulated when you are inactive for a long time. So again, even if you're eating enough protein, your muscles literally lose the ability to respond to the protein as effectively or properly as it could be.

Philip Pape: 6:38

The third thing and this is really fascinating is that you develop insulin resistance just from sitting right. This isn't like diabetes level, you know metabolic disease, insulin resistance but it's enough to impair the uptake of those amino acids in your muscle tissue. And you know because we talk about muscle as a sink for glucose. Well, you want that muscle to do its job and you're actually hurting that by sitting too long. Your muscles become less responsive to the anabolic signals that normally tell them to start building new protein.

Philip Pape: 7:07

And then where it gets really interesting and this is where we're moving into next is the study from 2022 by Moore et al proved that breaking up sitting time with brief movement completely reverses these effects, like it just completely reverses them. They had participants sitting for a long time for seven and a half hours, which is honestly a typical workday for a lot of people and they measured their muscle protein synthesis response to feeding and the results were actually pretty markedly stunning is what I'll say. As far as research goes, in the sitting group the continuous sitting group that didn't take breaks the muscle protein synthesis was blunted by nearly 50%. When participants took two minute walking breaks every half hour, their muscle protein synthesis increased by 47% compared to sitting. Let me repeat that 47% more muscle building from the exact same food, just by walking for two minutes every half hour.

Philip Pape: 8:08

So you might be thinking, okay, how is this working? How is this doing anything meaningful? And it surprised me as well, even though I talk about this stuff all the time. We're conditioned to think that only intense movement, only training and only lots of walking is going to create these adaptations. But what's interesting is the data's there. It shows us how our biology works. When you take brief movement breaks, there are things that happen at the cellular level because it's yet another signal. Just like training in the gym is giving you a signal to build strength and muscle, moving around instead of sitting is telling your cells at that level to do something different, to adapt, to be a different type of person. And after I walk you through the mechanisms, we're going to get into the protocols for them to maximize that.

Philip Pape: 8:55

But let's just talk about them. First of all, we have muscle contraction, even light contraction like walking. Muscle contraction triggers what's called mechanotransduction and this is the process where mechanical stress gets converted into cellular signaling. Interesting, right, because even if you're strong, even if you have muscle, if you're just sitting around not using that, you're not sending that signal. Even the most gentle contractions reactivate the mTOR pathway and its downstream targets. This is why I was asking in our Facebook group if people have experience with those elliptical machines that you put on the ground when you're sitting, and a lot of people said, yeah, I use it just for blood flow, just to keep things moving. There is something to be said there that even that might have an impact. They didn't study that, but you would think logically that just moving like that could at least be a significant improvement over sitting. And so what you're doing is you're literally flipping the muscle building switch back on right and then you're creating the conditions for that signaling to be effective.

Philip Pape: 9:51

Getting up walking around, it's going to improve your blood flow. It's going to enhance the delivery of those amino acids to your muscle tissue, right? Because, remember this muscle protein synthesis is limited by amino acid availability at the muscle level, not just your bloodstream. So if you have better blood flow, it means better uptake into the muscles of those amino acids. And then your movement improves insulin sensitivity, which is why we love walking after meals, for example. It makes your muscles more responsive to the anabolic effects of both insulin and the amino acids. Right, we know that insulin is like a nutrient shuttling signal, and so why not? Wouldn't you want to trigger it more often? You can't just rely on having the muscle. You also have got to give a signal so that the muscle can uptake that dose. And this is what researchers call a permissive anabolic environment. Basically, your muscles become primed to use nutrition for building rather than just existing.

Philip Pape: 10:47

And then something actually blew my mind. If this hasn't blown your mind already all of this stuff, when I first read this research. It's not just an acute effect, it's a chronic, cumulative effect. These brief movement breaks, these two minutes every 30 minutes, appear to reset your muscle sensitivity to protein feeding for many hours afterward, and so it's like you're constantly refreshing or resetting your muscles ability to respond to nutrition throughout the day. Another reason to get up and just take those breaks.

Philip Pape: 11:16

And now this? This segues us into the next segment, where you know it's great to understand the mechanisms, but then how do you implement this? And I've already kind of alluded to it. And let's be honest, you know most of us can't just, um, get up and do mile or two mile walks on a regular basis, right? Because if I said that was the solution, it would probably not be practical or achievable. Um, so this is like super simple. The beauty of this is two minute walks. They compared it to sitting. They also compared it to doing 15 bodyweight squats, and the walking had an edge. So if you're like, oh no, philip's gonna say do squats every 30 minutes like exercise snacks, no, you've actually gotta do just the walks. And the way I would put it practically into place is, I would first make sure you have a foundation of your training and walking anyway, right, we wanna actually have the muscle to use, we wanna have the overall metabolic support and that energy flux, and that's why I like post-meal walks, walking after meals, walking after breakfast, lunch and or dinner for five to 10 minutes, because those can count as your breaks and kind of kill two birds with one stone, right, and it captures really good windows of time right after you've eaten, when your muscle protein synthesis will even be elevated further from the feeding. We know it helps with insulin sensitivity and blood sugar management as well, and if you can't do anything else, just walking after meals is going to make a huge difference. And then the second thing is, of course, the movement snacks. You want to set up movement snacks throughout your workday, every hour.

Philip Pape: 12:43

Do something, do something. It could be the walk, it could be going upstairs, it could be squats. I mean really something. The two minute walk, though, around your office or your house or whatever, or even just standing and trying to jiggle around and do some stretching. I mean something, do something. But the two minute walk seems to be a nice benchmark and the key here is being consistent. It's not the intensity, it's just doing it. It's just doing it and you can have. You can make this systematic.

Philip Pape: 13:07

So that's my third point here is put a system in place. Don't just rely on remembering to do this. You listen to Philip's podcast and you're like, oh wow, I'm gonna start doing that, and then you forget and you're done. You never get back to it again. So I'm gonna suggest an iPhone or whatever phone. You have alarms or reminders, use an app, use a habit tracker, put sticky notes on your monitor, like whatever it takes, to make this automatic.

Philip Pape: 13:31

And some people are going to say, oh my gosh, I'm so busy. I'm constantly working all day. I'm on my computer 10 hours a day. I'm a busy parent, I'm working from home. I can barely find time to eat lunch. Okay, you got to find what works for your specific situation, be consistent with it. And I'm literally asking you for two minutes every 30 minutes. It is not that much time at all. It's kind of like taking bathroom breaks. In fact, use it to take a bathroom break, use it to get a glass of water, have it stack, use it to catch up on a personal email or two, or to return a phone call right Go, walk. While you're doing that stuff, you don't need to overhaul your entire life. This is actually one of the simplest, easiest things I've ever recommended. So that's the mechanisms what to do. And now here's where things get really exciting, and I wanted to save this for the end, because the muscle protein synthesis piece is just the beginning.

Philip Pape: 14:15

When you start implementing walking snacks, you might get other benefits like more stable energy levels, no more crashes in the afternoon, blood sugar regulation improves, fewer cravings, more stable hunger cues, and then sleep quality usually improves because you're not dealing with that restless, tight feeling that comes from prolonged sitting as well. You also have the better insulin sensitivity, which means improved nutrient partitioning. More of your food goes toward what you want, including the muscle building, instead of fat storage, so it improves fat loss. It enhances your blood flow throughout the day to improve recovery from your training sessions, faster recovery, and then I think I alluded to this it appears to enhance the muscle building response to your post-workout nutrition as well. Your muscles become even more responsive to the protein feeding across the board, not just when you're doing the intervention because of everything we talked about. So this could be one of those things, just like eliminating alcohol, for example, or just starting to train when you didn't train before. That can be a huge game changer.

Philip Pape: 15:10

And most people are obsessing over the few hours in the week that they spend in the gym and then they ignore the other. What? 160 waking hours of the week where they can do these simple things that are actually going to make a huge difference and compliment your muscle building, compliment your training, your fat loss, your food. All of that Because really what we're trying to do is create a system, create an environment where your body can effectively use the nutrition to be fit, to build strength, to build muscle throughout the day. And so these walking snacks, I mean, come on, they're super easy. You're not just preventing the blunting of that muscle protein synthesis, you are enhancing it beyond normal levels. That's incredible. Think about the compound effect of that over time. It beyond normal levels, that's incredible. Think about the compound effect of that over time.

Philip Pape: 15:56

If we were to go with the number, the 47 improvement in response, which I agree, is going to have a large fluctuation based on the individual and based on how the study was performed, but if you're doing that multiple times a day, every single day, it should have a major effect down the road before long. And this requires zero additional recovery time, zero additional training stress. It can be implemented by anyone, regardless of fitness level or schedule constraints. It's a pretty easy hack to do here. You're hacking your physiology with two minute breaks every 30 minutes, that's it Okay. So we're gonna recap today. Prolonged sitting creates anabolic resistance that reduces your muscle protein synthesis by up to 50%. But brief, frequent movement breaks, as simple as two minute walks every 30 minutes, can do the opposite, can actually increase it by 47%. Nothing else changing Training, nutrition steps, and the mechanisms are pretty clear.

Philip Pape: 16:43

It's improved blood flow, enhanced amino acid delivery, reactivating mTOR signaling and improved insulin sensitivity, and it gives you a permissive anabolic environment. We love anabolic environments, don't we? Take those post-meal walks, add a reminder, do what you need to do and optimize your system. And, of course, if you're ready to start tracking how these walking snacks impact your daily energy expenditure to support your physique goals, download Macrofactor. Use my code WITSANDWEIGHTS for two weeks free. You're going to love it. You're going to love how it gives you that clarity and gives you the calorie macro targets you need, and then you can see how these small movements add up to benefits for your metabolism because it calculates your expenditure, your daily expenditure, and you can see how that changes, based on the walking snacks. So click the link in the show notes or search Macrofactor in the app store. Download, use my code WITSANDWEIGHTS. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that every movement snack you take is a step toward better muscle building. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Post-Bulk Body Image Struggles and Fat Loss with a Slower Metabolism | Ep 341

Try Wits & Weights Physique University free for 2 weeks at witsandweights.com/physique - get a custom nutrition plan, live coaching calls, workout programs, and join Allan and our supportive community tackling similar fat loss and body composition challenges

--

Have you ever looked in the mirror and felt like you were staring at a stranger... but in a good way?

That's exactly where Allan finds himself after successfully building visible muscle mass and fundamentally changing his relationship with food.

In this real-time coaching session, we get into the fascinating psychological phenomenon of mental lag that happens when your body transforms faster than your self-perception can keep up.

Discover how to handle rising metabolism during cuts, manage post-bulk hunger, and process the psychological side of major physique transformation.

Episode Mentions:

• Allan's previous episode: After Bariatric Surgery, He Found Optimal Health and Strength Over 60

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Timestamps:

0:00 - Allan's physical and mental transformation since Episode 77
6:31 - "Feeling fat" is a fallacy
11:49 - Relationship with food and emotional eating
16:06 - Current training and what's working
19:03 - Live coaching on metabolism and hunger challenges
27:27 - Identifying the real cause of grazing behavior
34:32 - Family responsibilities and life balance
39:15 - Planning the next bulk
44:15 - The deeper "why" behind transformation
46:35 - Importance of proper warm-ups and injury prevention
52:40 - Biggest takeaways and next steps

Rebuilding Confidence After a Bulk (How to Navigate Fat Loss with a Slower Metabolism)

After a successful bulk, when you've packed on visible muscle and feel stronger than ever, you might think the hard part is over. But for many of us, especially those who’ve spent years reshaping their bodies, the mental game is just getting started.

In this coaching episode, we worked through Allan’s fat loss strategy after a long and productive bulk. We covered the post-bulk body image struggle, recalibrating expectations, and what your metabolism is really doing under the surface.

The Mental Lag After a Bulk

You can transform your physique and still not fully believe it. Allan described seeing himself in the mirror and not recognizing what he saw, even though he looked stronger and healthier than ever.

That disconnect is common. We change faster on the outside than our self-image can adapt. You might feel softer even after gaining visible muscle. That feeling is valid, but it doesn’t mean you failed. It means your brain is still catching up to your progress.

A Slower Metabolism Isn't the Problem

When Allan first came on the show in 2023, his maintenance calories were about 1,380. Today, after building muscle and increasing his activity, he's maintaining closer to 1,600. That’s a meaningful improvement.

But if you’re cutting based on old data, you might be running too deep of a deficit without realizing it. Allan was sticking to 1,100 to 1,200 calories per day, which created strong hunger signals and frequent grazing. The problem wasn’t discipline. The problem was a mismatch between actual energy needs and the target he was following.

Tracking apps like MacroFactor adjust slowly based on trends. If your activity and metabolism are rising quickly, the app can lag behind. Allan realized that and decided to trust his body’s signals by increasing intake slightly. He’s still losing fat but feeling more in control.

When Hunger is a Signal, Not a Mistake

If you’re lifting consistently, eating mostly whole foods, and still finding yourself constantly hungry, your body may be telling you something useful. In Allan’s case, the afternoon grazing started only after his training volume increased. His maintenance had climbed, but his targets hadn’t.

Instead of fighting the urge to eat more, he leaned into it strategically. He added 100 to 200 calories to his daily target while monitoring weekly fat loss. That was enough to satisfy hunger, support performance, and maintain a reasonable rate of progress.

Planning Beats Willpower

One of Allan’s biggest wins has been shifting from emotional eating to intentional eating. He still has moments of stress or temptation, but now he sees food as fuel and something to be enjoyed, not a coping mechanism.

This mindset helped him prepare for situations that used to derail him. For example, when visiting family in the hospital, he brings high-protein snacks like hard-boiled eggs so he’s not stuck choosing between vending machines and hunger. This didn’t require perfection. It just required planning.

Progress is Personal

Allan’s doctors gave him various targets, like reaching 160 pounds to improve certain health markers. But he no longer fixates on the scale. Instead, he’s focused on body composition and how he feels in his skin. That’s a better north star.

He's already dropped a few pounds while eating at a more appropriate level. He’s also aware that his next phase might look different. His long-term goal includes another bulk, but this time with a more measured approach, knowing exactly how his body responds to higher calories.

You Don’t Have to Start Over Every Time

Allan’s current cut is built on top of years of work. His habits are strong. His workouts are consistent. His food environment is dialed in. The only tweak he needed was a small adjustment to match his new maintenance. That’s it.

This is the difference between someone trying to overhaul everything at once and someone refining the system they already built. If you’re in the first camp, the goal is to get to where Allan is. If you’re already close, take this as a reminder that tiny adjustments often beat total overhauls.

Final Thoughts

If your metabolism is changing, your food targets need to change with it. If you’re constantly hungry on a fat loss diet, the answer might be to eat more, not less. And if your post-bulk body feels unfamiliar, give yourself time to mentally catch up to your physical transformation.

Allan’s story is proof that body composition, health, and mindset are all connected. The more we understand our own data and stay grounded in our why, the more sustainable our results become.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:18

Thank you so much for joining us feel it. Today we're doing live coaching on his current cut strategy, tackling the post-bulk mindset challenges and figuring out his next steps. If you've ever felt that disconnect between how you look and how you feel, this conversation is going to have some gold for you today. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm doing something a bit different.

Philip Pape: 0:56

We're doing another focused coaching session, this time with Alan, who was on the show way back in episode 77, talking about his journey with emotional eating and bariatric surgery. So go check that out for the backstory. But Alan has been very busy since then. He has successfully built visible muscle mass. He's flipped around his relationship with food. Now he's dealing with what I call the good problems. You know like how to cut strategically after successfully bulking and that weird mental space where you've transformed your physique but your brain is still kind of catching up. So today's conversation is more coaching focused as we work through his current challenges in real time. We're talking about his pretty aggressive fat loss timeline, the post-bulk mindset hurdles and, of course, mapping out his next phase. Alan, are you ready to do this?

Allan: 1:46

Yes indeed.

Philip Pape: 1:48

All right. So people now say that you look like you train, like you've lived, and that you've added visible muscle mass and I definitely can see it and you've sent me before after photos and it's incredible. But you've said you don't recognize yourself in the mirror, but in a good way, right, right, how are you feeling right now about the new you?

Allan: 2:09

Surprised and learning to accept it. I think learning to accept it is a great pivotal point for discussion, because I have to give myself grace, I have to allow for my transformation that's occurred over the past couple of years. You know this is not something that happens within three months time. Yeah, you know. So, for example, my expenditure, when we've my daily expenditure for maintenance, was about 1380. Um, back in when we did our last podcast in June of 2023. And now my, my, I'm pushing 1600. Now, in terms of my expenditure. So I have. So I, when I look in the mirror or I look at my photo of me, sometimes I feel like, you know, adolescents go through something when they're 1415. They look in the mirror and they go this is what I look like now. So I recently looked at some photos of myself and it was like I don't. It's just a very, very visible reminder of that. I've achieved a certain physique and wellness because I look healthy. That's the most important thing.

Philip Pape: 3:20

You do Super vibrant, clear, skin, glowing smile. It's all there. It's right, we all try to vibrant, clear skin, glowing smile.

Allan: 3:26

It's all there. It's right. We all try to take care of ourselves, Philip.

Philip Pape: 3:28

Exactly that's what we're about, and so I like something you mentioned already, because we get into numbers, we get into data. I think that's important to just peel back reality. We were talking earlier on a Physique University coaching call about reality versus fantasy, and we all have these projections of ourselves from the past and into the future. And you look at something like your metabolism now is 250 or 300 calories more than it was and that's, and that's your kind of maintenance calories that have gone up by that much. And there's an episode I did not long ago and you know it was, uh, inspired by you on what to do with a slow metabolism, because people compare their metabolisms to others and unfortunately that that that can be very difficult when your metabolism is low. But you've got to compare it to yourself of the past, right, and it sounds like you've. That's one concrete change that you've noticed. What are some other in the last two or three years concrete changes that you've noticed?

Allan: 4:23

Chest size, arm size, strength, concrete changes, I think, in terms of coaching, in terms of everything that we've touched upon, I think one thing is that my sleep hygiene has been a lot better. I definitely have a sleep routine and I get six to seven and a half fish hours at night, I'd say. Physically, my legs are solid. Sometimes I sit in a chair and my jeans are stretched and my legs are all swollen, and it's not fat.

Philip Pape: 4:59

It's swole, man, it's swole.

Allan: 5:01

Right. So I'm like what did I do in the gym to deserve these legs today? So my forearms are stronger. One thing so through training, the consistency and variety of exercises that I've done over the past couple of years have strengthened my weakest parts. So my forearms used to always give way. Now they don't. My adductor muscles used to give me issues, but I've learned to warm up and I've learned to be smart and wise about the weight that I apply for myself and when. So these are all changes that some of it's mindfulness, but it translates into physicality, if that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 5:45

A hundred percent, and I didn't mean to limit concrete to just physical, right, because there are concrete mental changes which we're going to dive into. Some of that I want to get into it, and that's actually a good segue, because you wrote me something that I'm really curious about that you recognize your feeling of being fat, because you acknowledge that sometimes you feel that way because, for whatever reason, as actually a fallacy, despite needing to drop some body fat, maybe objectively, and so I think this is a very mature self-awareness about this mental lag that we wanted to talk about today, this mental lag behind the physical transformation, and maybe it'll always be there, right, we're not saying that it's a good or bad thing and it's going to just go away. How are you processing that disconnect between the two?

Allan: 6:31

It gives me a. It gives me a more comfortable resting place, so to speak. Um, like a more comfortable and safer foundation. So, even though I definitely have belly fat, without a doubt, all right, um, and I have some adipose tissue I always joke around with my trainers. I'm strong underneath this layer, you know. But seriously, um. So, in terms of in terms of the question, um, it gives me a safe platform to work for. Medically, I definitely would benefit to lose another 10 pounds. That's not, it's not a whole lot, but my doctor be specific on that, yeah okay, what do you mean?

Allan: 7:11

my doctor said that when I was 172, when I saw him and he said alan, he goes if you lose five percent, I think. He said then certain markers that you have that are very minimal, but but they will go away. Will organ fat, like liver fat, stuff like that? He said you're very minimal. He said, but if you lose, get down to 160, they won't be, it'll be gone. And then if you lose and if you had other scarring issues or anything else which I don't have, if he gave me another number to go to, he said, but this 160, he said, would be the place that he would want to see me. Similarly, my cardiologist likes me at that weight as well.

Allan: 7:52

My bariatric doctor is another story. Last time I saw him he said Alan, he goes. You can't go by the scale, he said. He said Alan. He said you know he goes. Yes, you can lose some weight. You definitely have gained some weight, but some of that is muscle. He said, ideally, I'd like to see you like closer in the lower one sixties. You know that's kind of where his mind is. He said, but you have to also. The bottom line is that you have to see your body composition. He said that's going to determine what scale of weight you end up at.

Philip Pape: 8:22

That is the biggest misconception we have to deal with on on this show. I think in in general in the fitness industry. Right Is that a dichotomy between weight and health and where there's sometimes a correlation for sure?

Philip Pape: 8:38

Like if you go from 400 pounds to 200 pounds, I don't care how you did it. If you've lost a bunch of muscle you're probably going to be far healthier. Um, regardless, like there's, there's cases where that's necessary and then there's other cases, like yours, where you're kind of in the optimization point here where, honestly, you probably right now fitter than you know 95% of guys your age, I mean I don't know what percent, if you've looked at percentiles of your blood work or anything you've got to be up there.

Allan: 9:08

My blood work is fine, my blood work is good, my blood work is fine. Yeah, my testosterone is actually in there as well. I mean, I, I'm, I'm okay, just um, genetics, so cholesterol issues, you know, like there are things, there are markers that I need to be aware of, um, just based on family history and my own history, um, and my a1C is still low, you know, it's like 5.3, you know that's all that. That doesn't move too much. So I'm, I'm, I'm good, um, so, so that's it. So I feel like I definitely want to drop to 160. I will feel better in my skin, for sure. Phillip, I'm five four. 10 pounds on a five four frame is pretty decent. You know, in terms of, in terms of me, where my fat is, I definitely see a difference.

Philip Pape: 9:48

A hundred percent. If I didn't know you and you said, and you told me your height and weight, I would you know. I would generally say, for, like, let's say, younger guy in his twenties and thirties who's 5'9", you'd want him to be packing on some muscle and pushing 200, but then leaning out to like 180 or something like that. Right, in general, that's what a lot of guys want to be. So, to want to be 160, 170, um, given your history, given your you know age and everything else passes the sniff test. You know what I mean. Like it's not like. I know you, I see you, you're, you're, you're like a stocky, muscular guy. Now.

Philip Pape: 10:20

You know, what I mean. That is a compliment and everybody's different, right, everybody's different. So before we get into that situation about what you're doing now, what's working, what's not working, just one real quick thing to tie our last history from a couple or our conversation from a couple of years ago emotional eating. You've said that your relationship with food has become so much easier. You're not avoiding carbs, you love meal prepping. You're posting all the time like wonderful recipes and things like that and helping others in the community too, like here's what you can do, here's some ideas. How has this supported what you're doing and become kind of more positive with your health, the idea of food and your relationship with food?

Allan: 11:49

So emotional eating really doesn't go away. It's more of an understanding of, of everything, Um, in terms of. Can you clarify the question again?

Philip Pape: 11:58

It was a very badly worded question, so there's a lot of avenues.

Allan: 12:02

I could take, but what would you like me to talk about, exactly?

Philip Pape: 12:06

I would like you to talk about how the shift in your relationship with food has supported your success over the last two years.

Allan: 12:13

Oh, yes, yes, let's go with that. That's it, baby. So, yes, so my relationship with food has supported me. I've learned how to eat again, philip. Okay, I've learned that I could have my sourdough bread as long as it's sliced and pushed and cooked, and I'm not eating half a loaf, although I could eat a half a loaf of salad dough bread. You know, it's not a big deal, but in the general scheme of things, it's not a practice. So so, to be honest, I love going food shopping.

Allan: 12:43

Um, I love meal prep. Um, it's a, it's a form of creative nurturing, even though my recipes are kind of standard, um, the fact that I can take a Sunday morning and meal prep, um, just a whole array of different things fish, chicken, my, my eggs and egg scramble with vegetables. Um, sweet potatoes, if I, if I want potatoes during the week. Um, you know, it's just, it's just a nice nurturing thing. I enjoy food. I don't look at food as as something to fill a void. I look at it in terms of a physical need and sometimes training, which is another subject we can get into. Sometimes my training dictates my desire for food more than my emotionality does. Now, if that Does that make sense to you, yeah, You're saying food.

Philip Pape: 13:37

it isn't filling an emotional void anymore. It's a practical thing for your body, for your training, for your needs, for your nutrition, and you enjoy the nurturing aspect of making it.

Allan: 13:48

Right. But I will say this that there are times when I'm taxed. For example, if a relative is in the hospital and those vending machines at Lorna Dunes are calling me, it's like all I want to do is have a Lorna Dunes package. All I want is you know. But then I go to the machine and I look at all the garbage in the machine and I was like, do I really want this? And I look at all the garbage in the machine and I was like, do I really want this? Let me wait a half an hour.

Allan: 14:15

Go to the cafeteria downstairs and they have like chickpea salads with arugula and they have other things that I could eat instead of running to the vending machine. So if I'm hungry and I feel like I want to eat emotionally or physically at that moment in the hospital, emotionally or physically at that moment in the hospital I will try to make the best choices that will fill my gut, satisfy my need to eat something, but do it in the realm of adequate nutrition instead of Lorna Doon cookies Not that there's anything wrong with Lorna Doon.

Philip Pape: 14:45

No, no, no, yeah, yeah, I had a music teacher in high school who loved them the Lorna Doon cookie, the shortbread but what you're, what you're, what I'm hearing is you've, over time, and after doing the work, you've gotten to a place where you make choices that are aligned with what you want. And it's not always what somebody on the outside would call the perfect choice, cause there's no such thing. It's the best choice available to you in the moment. And we were kind of talking about that, about all or nothing, thinking earlier.

Allan: 15:12

Yes, that's what it sounds like. Yeah, nope, that was a great summation. You're absolutely on point with that.

Philip Pape: 15:17

Yes, it's a modicum of control that you didn't have before, and really anyone listening that's what we're trying to get to is like how do you have control over the situation in some way more than you do today?

Allan: 15:27

Right A lot of times. I'll, I'll bring, I'll, I'll bring, I'll cook up. If I know I'm going to be the hospital that week for or for a few days, I'll boil up a dozen hard boiled eggs and I'll have those to you know in the hospital. They're ready to go and transportable. So it's just, it's a matter. You're right, so you brought that back to me because it is a matter of making choices.

Philip Pape: 15:49

Um, yeah, yeah, so that's good. So this kind of sets the foundation. Now you alluded to a weight and a body composition goal. What are you? Just just give us a brief overview of what are you doing now. That's, that's kind of working, and feel free to mention anything that you feel is not working. Just high level with your overall routine.

Allan: 16:06

Okay, okay, what's working is my workout in the gym. Um, I did about three, four months of iron clad built on two pounds of muscle. Um, really, you know, through it, through it a scan that you know might be accurate. Might not be, but at least, um, there's some visible muscle growth.

Philip Pape: 16:27

And now I said two pounds, two pounds. That's good and you already had a good foundation. And just so the listener knows Ironclad, it's like an undulating wave-based, volume-based program that I kind of stole from Alex Bromley Just so people know what Ironclad is Okay.

Allan: 16:42

So now I'm training a little differently. I'm training with a trainer and it's more about, I don't know, hypertrophy, it's more about um, you know, hypertrophy it's more about um, going to failure with 15 reps type of deal. Okay, um, and doing, doing like 10 sets a week on a, on a muscle group. You know, that's that same paradigm, but just it's making me hungry as anything. Okay, so, so, so. The gym is working really well, really well. My arms, I mean. I feel the physicality, I feel safe and I feel worked. However, I leave the gym, man, and I'm like where's my bet? Where's my apricots? Where's my carbs? Where's my this, where's my that? And it's like I've got to reign that in. That is where my difficulty lies right now.

Philip Pape: 17:33

Do you feel like the change is strictly from the training approach or the fact that you've been in a deficit?

Allan: 17:43

Both. I think that my deficit based upon my new maintenance, philip and this is something you know you can eyeball and we could discuss so like, instead of having a 1400 or 1500 maintenance, my maintenance is now pushing probably over 1600. By the time macro factor catches up, the way it's going up every week, I'm going to end up around 1650, I think. So in that regard, that 1100, that darn 1100 or 1150 that I see in terms of my goal at 0.8 pounds a week might be too stiff.

Philip Pape: 18:21

Isn't that amazing. Like that is fun. That is a phenomenon that I want people to understand. The hunger assuming it's true physiological hunger because for you it probably is at this point you've normalized your signals. You eat quite a healthy dietary pattern overall. That's satiating is pretty much just telling you you need to eat more. The question is, do you kind of fight it to maintain a bigger deficit or do you rise with it a bit to maintain what you were kind of used to? It gives you a few more options, but we always think in terms of sustainability. So are you letting it rise or are you fighting it?

Allan: 18:57

I'm letting it rise.

Philip Pape: 18:59

Okay, and you're still having the same progress because the deficit is the same.

Allan: 19:03

I'm losing weight. I'm losing like last week. Last week I definitely ate in my in maintenance.

Philip Pape: 19:08

Maybe if my true maintenance is about 1650, I'm eating 100 calories a little over that or around there no more than 100 calories up and I'm losing half a pound a week. So you met because you mentioned. One of your struggles now after bulking is that your brain telling you you want to eat more because you were eating more. Yes, and yet you need to be in a deficit. This sounds like it's maybe helping.

Allan: 19:31

It might be Looking at the new data. Philip, you're absolutely correct. I'm glad we're talking about this, because I kind of felt that maybe you would see it that way. I envision our conversation talking about this. So yeah, so it's helping.

Philip Pape: 19:48

Let's take a step back, okay, but hold on, let's take a step back. Um how long were you at maintenance after the bulk?

Allan: 19:54

Oh, by default, or by or by no, seriously, I would say, I would say um a few weeks, I may, I, after my bulk, I didn't, I didn't I, it must've been. It was a while, it was a period of at least three weeks.

Philip Pape: 20:13

Was it long enough to feel normalized at that maintenance?

Allan: 20:15

Oh, yes, 100%.

Philip Pape: 20:16

Okay, okay, that's what I was getting at. Again, sometimes when you switch fast which I've done, just because I'm impatient when you switch quickly, you could really throw off the hunger signals and then have that issue.

Allan: 20:29

But what kicked off my expenditure rising, oddly enough, is, I mean, it is summer, so I'm basically I'm gardening, I'm out a little more. I'm getting I'm definitely getting steps in um is the the um fat loss, rapid fat loss challenge. My expenditure during that, during those two weeks, rose like 30 points. I mean just the graph went like that during the during the rapid fat loss phase, and I think it was in tandem with my increase in activity.

Philip Pape: 20:58

Okay, yeah, I was going to say that you wouldn't expect that and also it was too short a period, but that makes sense if I had more activity Unless man. We're discovering weird little mechanisms all the time regarding refeeds and how some people on a certain refeed schedule can get some little boost in their metabolism, but I don't want to overthink that, so it's not overthinking, but I but I definitely think that there was a something cool that happened during that rapid fat loss phase where I lost weight, um, but my expenditure was going up.

Allan: 21:28

I was still lifting, I was still, you know, it was still working. After that, I have been on maintenance since, even though technically I'm on a deficit. Some days I'm in a deficit, but if you look at my weekly calories, they're averaging about 1,600, 1,700 calories a day.

Philip Pape: 21:48

So are you on pace at that 0.8 pounds a week.

Allan: 21:51

I'm at point. I've been losing a half a pound a week, half a day. So are you on pace at that? 0.8 pounds a week. I'm at point. I've been losing a half a pound a week.

Philip Pape: 21:53

Half a pound. Okay, so I know you want to get another like nine pounds off and at 0.8,. That would take like 11, 12 weeks, but if you assume less, it could take 16. Uh, and it is June already, so let's talk realistic expectations, cause I think you mentioned something like August.

Allan: 22:11

The end of August, yeah, but that's only eight weeks.

Philip Pape: 22:14

Oh, end of August, that's 10 weeks. Yeah, you're kind of in the ballpark. I mean it's not too far. If you ended up at like 163, would that be at the end of the world?

Allan: 22:22

Not at all.

Philip Pape: 22:23

Okay, okay.

Allan: 22:24

It would be the world. Okay, so it's a stretch goal, that's good, it's a stretch goal. 160 is a stretch goal, 162 is fine. Also, I want to be as far away as from 170 for medical reasons, not physique reasons, although that's a separate issue. I got it.

Philip Pape: 22:41

I got it.

Allan: 22:41

I got it. I want to be there.

Philip Pape: 22:44

Okay, so there's some really good directional things going on with you. Obviously, your expenditure going up, potentially due to your NEAT, you're at a modestly aggressive deficit. I wouldn't say it's too aggressive. I mean, I know your history. At half, even half a pound to 0.8 pounds, as long as you're hovering at 11, 1200 calories or more, that makes sense. And then are there any, given your past fat loss phases, do you foresee any type of resistance or expenditure drop that you would predict from the past?

Allan: 23:17

No, not at this time of the year and definitely not Good.

Philip Pape: 23:21

Okay, yeah, and is there any other lever? Are there any other levers we haven't already pulled, because you're pretty solid all around the board with your habits.

Allan: 23:31

That's a good question. Yes, there is. What is it? There might be a couple, and it's a good question.

Philip Pape: 23:39

See, this is a coaching man. I don't tell you what to do, I just ask you to tell yourself what to do.

Allan: 23:44

Yeah, but the levers are there. The levers are there. So the levers that I have been picking up are steps you have spoken on some of your podcasts Other people speak about man. If you don't get those steps in, it's a big game changer. Those 10,000 to 12,000 steps are are game changers in terms of, in terms of expenditure, in terms of um, weight loss. So that's number one. So I I've pulled that lever recently even more so Um. The other level level lever is Philip. I have a hard time with grazing. I have, and this is this is not a physical lever, this is not an action level lever, this is a strategy lever that needs to be addressed. That I have a problem with. I have a problem with grazing and that's and I could easily keep my expenditure to 1400. You know, if I had to be at 1400, I mean that my expenditure, my deficit at 1400, I could do it. But it's the grazing that that tweaks it into maintenance and and and takes me off target a little.

Philip Pape: 24:52

Okay, let's, let's put a pin in that for a second Steps. You mentioned as a lover you're more active. Do you have any long stretches of sitting?

Allan: 25:01

I try not to Uh, but yes, I think probably I would say but yes, I think probably I would say living room time maybe three hours a day. Yes, you know, in the morning when I get up I'm sitting at my desk going through emails and everything with coffee for about an hour and then I get to the gym. So I would say I'm sitting, for I would say I would say I'm sitting maybe four, four hours a day for sure.

Philip Pape: 25:31

Is it mostly contiguous or do you take breaks?

Allan: 25:34

I do take breaks, I go out and I garden and I do things. My watch says time to stand. But yeah, at times, you know and there's also also I'm up really early in the morning. So some days if I'm up, if I'm up if I go to sleep early, I'm up really early in the morning. So some days if I'm up, if I go to sleep early, I wake up early and sometimes I'll take a 45-minute nap in the afternoon.

Philip Pape: 26:03

So late afternoon I might take like a half an hour snooze or something like that, but basically so that's part of my resting of the day, so, um, okay, it's good, I'm not, yeah, and, by the way, I'm not going to take away naps. Naps are great.

Allan: 26:18

So that's it. So that's the um. Go ahead, philip.

Philip Pape: 26:21

I was just going to say like so this is a big tease for the audience. The next episode after this is about walking breaks and how impactful it is on muscle protein synthesis, as well as like insulin sensitivity and how your body uses nutrients, and so I always think, if there are windows on a daily basis where you could take breaks like every half hour, throw those in. Add some reminders, do a little. It's an easy thing to tweak in your day to day and who knows if it'll have an impact on your metabolism, right.

Allan: 26:50

Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about bringing the elliptical into the living room.

Philip Pape: 26:55

Yeah, yeah Well.

Allan: 26:56

I was asking you to the.

Philip Pape: 26:57

Facebook group about those elliptical on the ground things, because I think there's something to be said about, like blood flow. Blood flow is a big piece of it, honestly. Okay, so let's talk about grazing. So I know you're pretty, I'll say, advanced in terms of the psychology of some of this stuff. Like, okay, what's step one? When we have an issue with emotional eating, it's the trigger, right, identify the root trigger or the cause. What's your thought on that? Like emotional, environmental, physiological what causes you to graze?

Allan: 27:27

The feeling like I need to eat because I'm lifting weights.

Philip Pape: 27:31

That's an interesting one because there could be some reality to it, right, like genuine hunger, your protein is pretty high, right.

Allan: 27:41

Yes.

Philip Pape: 27:42

Okay, and what's the timing of this grazing?

Allan: 27:45

Because grazing to me seems like all day, but potentially there's Okay, so I usually have lunch about 11.30, 12 o'clock, and by two o'clock I want more protein and carbohydrates, so I'll have something then and then I'll eat around five o'clock.

Philip Pape: 28:04

Okay, when's the grazing occur?

Allan: 28:06

The grazing occurs around two. Oh, grazing two to three, two to four, and then from six, 30 till eight, 30, if I don't stay out of the kitchen.

Philip Pape: 28:19

Okay, and do you like, do you use meal timing, like timed meals is what I mean, like do you have a schedule for your meals?

Allan: 28:27

Unofficially yes.

Philip Pape: 28:29

Unofficially, which which implies there's some wheel room. In other words, I'm going through my brain of like what are you not already doing? That could be a simple um tool to kind of help with this Cause. I again, you know, you know my philosophy on emotional eating is start simple, start small, start easy to try to address it before going deeper and deeper into the psychology. You're an expert in psychology, right, it's in your background and I'm still learning about this stuff, but honestly, that helps. So if you had that spacing awareness via a structured eating window or schedule, could that help?

Allan: 29:06

That would help, but it's not the answer. I think I'm listening to you, I'm listening to what you're saying and in my mind I'm going through this idea that sometimes I think that what I was thinking maybe psychologically if macro factor is telling me that I need to be around 1200 calories, in reality I may need to be around 1400, let's say for a deficit or 1300, let's say, okay, stop there, stop there.

Philip Pape: 29:38

So are you saying that the grazing has only started recently because of that?

Allan: 29:42

Yes.

Philip Pape: 29:42

Okay, okay, then that sounds more logistical. I guess what I would say is do the homework of eating more, which isn't a hard assignment, and report back on whether the grazing goes away, because if that's all it is, that's real hunger.

Allan: 29:58

Right. So with the grazing I'm still losing a half a pound a week. So it's just very interesting. So here I have the macro factor numbers in front of me and you know that I honor, know, I honor that, you know. But then at the same time it's like darn, you know, I want a nectarine, like I want a nectarine and a banana, you know. Or I'm craving like fruit, and then I'll have chicken in the fridge and I'll say you know what, I'm going to have three or four ounces of chicken now and I'll have the fish for dinner. So, like, like, so my body is kind of telling me like I need those 200 calories extra during the afternoon.

Philip Pape: 30:36

Yes, and this is why I'm asking you to be more intentional Now. I think I think the I think the quote unquote answer since you said that like that's not the I think the answer is to be intentional about what you want to do. Do you want to add the calories in deliberately? And then you just be intentional, like you know how to do, or and we went, we talked about this earlier like do you want to fight it or not? And it's okay, if you want to fight it, you know we could do that, in which case we're talking about satiation, like all the things you know, already know and probably have built in um, having a pre-planned snack budget so that when the craving comes, you can flex into it. Gamifying habit stacking, you know, taking a pause and drinking water, right, like all the techniques right.

Philip Pape: 31:16

But maybe you don't need any of them. If you just say, no, I'm going to eat 200 more calories, and this is what is going to happen every day, you know. Does that make sense?

Allan: 31:25

It makes sense and it makes sense. Yes, it does make sense, it makes sense and it makes sense. Yes, it does make sense. I'm going to refigure my macro factor and see what it tells me and I'm going to discuss it. I think the expenditure, because it's still on the increase, is cutting me short a little bit. It's lagging, yeah, it's lagging, it's lagging.

Philip Pape: 31:48

Yeah, it's lagging.

Allan: 31:49

It's lagging. I think that's what's happening and that's why I'm hungry.

Philip Pape: 31:52

Okay and that's a good one. The good thing you mentioned there because traditionally in a bulking phase I see this all the time right, where your expenditures estimated at a number and it's rising pretty fast, and so because macro factors in a lagging algorithm based on historical data, it's not going to give you 300 more calories overnight, it's going to just titrate you up. But if your metabolism is going up too fast, you never catch up and then you're always hungry and that's why I would tell clients like I need to eat 200 more calories pronto, so it can happen in a deficit, like you as well, if your expenditure is going up, and so I would just split the difference. I would say, okay, if you've been grazing and getting in 200 more calories, maybe deliberately add 100 more calories and kind of split that difference right now and then let the app kind of bring you up on top of that.

Allan: 32:41

That makes wonderful sense, Philip. Okay, yeah, that's wonderful, it makes wonderful sense, and I was thinking, I was, I was, I was waiting to discuss this with you and I wanted to hear your, your decision on this and your wisdom on this, and you are so in sync with what feels right to me.

Philip Pape: 32:59

Good. I mean, my other option was going to be a detox juice cleanse combined with fasting. So I'm like, if one doesn't work, we'll try the other I'll take out my Omega, my Omega juicer, we'll try the coffee enema, right yeah.

Allan: 33:13

No, seriously no, but I was, I was, I I was looking forward to this coaching call and I wanted to hear your solution and you just said it and it's beautiful, it makes total sense and it fits in once again. It fits into what? And it fits in once again. It fits into what I intuitively know about what I'm doing and your eyeballing everything and discussion really was right on point with me, so I appreciate it.

Philip Pape: 33:42

Would you say that's your biggest bottleneck at the moment?

Allan: 33:46

Yeah, 100%, oh, 100%, okay, say that's your biggest bottleneck at the moment. Or yeah, 100, oh, 100, um, the other things are just just um. Last summer I was in the hospital with my dad pretty much from the end of june all the way through, probably till october or november september, you know. So through september. So this summer I decided that I'm gonna enjoy the summer. My, my dad is well, he's stable, everything's good. I'm going to have the summer I didn't have last summer. So I'm out, bicycle riding, I'm walking, seeing friends, doing things you know, instead of being in the hospital every day or every other day. So that's why I'm it's not my why, but it's my conscious way of living right now is to get out and do things and enjoy life.

Philip Pape: 34:32

Which potentially reduces your stress as well.

Allan: 34:36

Yes.

Philip Pape: 34:36

And could also contribute to the physiological change. Not to bring it back to that, I want to acknowledge that you've been through a rough time. It sounds like everything you told me from last year and and you're taking advantage of the, the new environment and situation now. Um, and honestly, that's a makes you a role model, too, for everyone around you. It allows you to support them. Um, the way I see it, so right, it's a very positive thing right, I have family, you know, it's just.

Allan: 35:02

Everything is everything is good. Um, I still have concerns, you know. I still have family responsibilities, but I'm able now to take care of myself. In fact, my father also says he wants, you know, he's expressed multiple times that I need to come take care of myself. If I visit him twice and twice, like you know, if I visit, if I visit him on a monday and I go on again on tuesday, he says why are you here again, alan? He said go home, go home, enjoy your family, enjoy everything. You know you don't have to come every day. So I was like okay, dad, like you're feeling well and you're absolutely correct.

Philip Pape: 35:36

That's nice.

Allan: 35:37

That's nice, you know so. So so it gives me. He wants me to take care of myself. When I, and I tell him, I said Dad, I said Dad. I want to let you know that even though I, even though you know I'm here a lot and I want you to exercise every day, I take, I'm watching what I'm eating, I'm taking really good care of myself because my parents always that was kind of like always ingrained in us to be healthy, take care of ourselves, not at the exclusion of other people, but we should not get sick over taking care of other people other people, but we should not get sick over taking care of other people.

Philip Pape: 36:13

I agree, it's funny. You mentioned that, not to the exclusion of other things. One of our other members I'm not going to name his name just for privacy, but you would know him he sent me an Instagram reel and he's like is this really what people are thinking now? And it was this guy, it was a comedian, stand-up comedian talking about how if a father has big muscles, he must not be a great dad, because the time it takes to be in the gym, he's not using those muscles to play with his kids. And I'm like it's sad, right? No, I get it, because it's the biggest common denominator when it comes to comedy and I totally get it.

Philip Pape: 36:42

I love standup comedy and it's like a relatable thing because 90% of people probably aren't working out, but you you mentioned, you hit it right in the head where no, it's, it's, it's the thing that allows you to show up and be there, um, and that's great. So, okay, I want to, I want to. I want to stay on point now with some of the some of the things you've got going on into the next six months, because we kind of tackled up till now. We talked about your current deficit. I think you also mentioned that after that, you want to maintain and then go into another bulk. Is that right?

Allan: 37:12

Yes.

Philip Pape: 37:12

Cool. Do you think you're going to approach it differently than the last one?

Allan: 37:18

Well, that causes me to pause. That's a great question.

Philip Pape: 37:22

Or should you, or is it going to be exactly the same?

Allan: 37:24

No, no, no, no, I'm going to be wiser. Um, I think I know what a bulk is about now. I know how it, how I feel physiologically, I'm very much in tune with it when I lift weights, like, I'm very much in tune with my body, how it feels, how it responds to the progressive overload and visibly what happens to me. Um, so it's been a while and I think I'm wiser.

Allan: 37:46

This set, this next book, is going to be the maintenance is going to be maintenance and maybe I may do. You know, depending on where my weight stays, I'll be either the lower end or the higher end. But when I bulk, um, it's going to be great because I know the foods that will fuel me and I know, I'll know if I'm gaining too much weight too quickly or actually more fat. I would have to qualify that. I know now what my body starts doing when it gains too much fat over muscle and I'll be able to work with you and play it. You know, every month or every couple of months, say, check in with you and play it. Every month, or every couple of months, check in with you and say this is what's happening, I feel good. Or I may say you know, these extra 300 calories I have might be a little too much for me now and then it's something we can't predict. Let's see what happens.

Philip Pape: 38:47

That is no truer statement for anyone listening who has been, or has never been, through a cut in bulk cycles. Every single one is different and if you try to predict from the past, you're just going to be frustrated because it could be way. And it's not that it's better or worse, it just you respond differently. You're a different person, physically when you start the next cut, and environmentally, and you know all that lifestyle. Tell me what. What would success look like for you in this next bulk?

Allan: 39:15

I'm looking at my biceps right now. Are they nice?

Philip Pape: 39:20

and cut now because I want to get these biceps?

Allan: 39:22

no, seriously, what would it feel, what it would be? Um more health, I think. I think underneath it all, underneath it all ties into my why, or my deeper why, is to keep myself mentally and physically sturdy, um to repair where I've come from and to continue to build solidity in health as I'm approaching my upper 60s. So I think that is where I'd like to be. I'm also, I think, when I envision a bulk filler, I envision doing exercises and movements that are safe, that are taxing, because the bulking is definitely like you want to do those, and I might tap into more strength training at that time with the more calories. And I think that the bulking will also have an effect on my metabolism. Um have an effect on my metabolism, um, I think, as I'm getting older, I think A1C and my family increases and I think that that will continue to offset the um. Any kind of sugar metabolism issues I that may be happening.

Philip Pape: 40:43

Ooh, that's good. Okay, so you've got a lot there. I want to break each one down. You mentioned muscle is health. I don't think you said it literally, but that's what I got from that.

Philip Pape: 40:52

Yes, that's such an important message for anyone listening that okay, if you have excess weight to lose, fine, you can. You can work on that, but also you've got to. You got to have the muscle. Muscle is health, like you said. It makes you sturdy, it helps you connect with the why of being there for your grandchildren enjoying all the years ahead. Because when you say you're approaching the late 60s and I think of the condition of some people in their 70s, again I just have to say congrats, alan, on the work you've put in, because it's demonstrating you've turned back the clock by 15, 20 years where you are right now easily you know what I mean Like you're operating, where, like some 50 year olds who haven't taken care of themselves are. I mean you're operating. Better than that, but you know what.

Philip Pape: 41:34

I'm saying Um, and then you said to re. You said you want to repair where you've come from. I want to dig into that just to one more level deep. What do you mean by that?

Allan: 41:44

Physically, I was 220, was 220 pounds. Um, before I had bariatric surgery, I, I had, I went down to like 160. And when I was in my 40s and then I gained weight, um, when the kids, you know, came to live with us, um, I became daddy again and I cooked and I, who went to the gym, I had that. I was a daddy as I had no time to go to the gym, but I had that I was a daddy. I was like I had no time to go to the gym, but anyways, but eventually I've always, even though it was through being in spin instructor and teaching yoga, I still was always on the, on the bigger size, you know, more of a heavier weight. And then, when they've been so, I, back in 2020, I was, I reached like 220 again and I, I so, in terms of weight, I don't want to go back there. But when I made that statement, philip, that I want to repair, what did you say to me?

Philip Pape: 42:35

Repair where I've come from is what you said.

Allan: 42:38

So my mom passed away. This is a deep why, and I'm sharing this. Maybe it could help somebody. That's the only reason I'm sharing this. My world fell apart. You know, when you have parents and you have arguments and you have, you know, love relationships, but you, you know it's. You know I love my parents, I love my, you know love my mom and we had a wonderful relationship. But when she got sick and she passed away, everything changed. My whole perspective on life changed and my heart broke. I was there when she passed away. She called me to come, called me to come.

Allan: 43:31

So it was like that trauma and working through it is something that I'm realizing. I'm picking up all the pieces now. So by doing the cardio to having fun with sprinting, having fun on a spin bike again, listening to music again, getting out for walks, enjoying family, enjoying life, I'm putting all the pieces together again. So a bulk signifies me going to a next phase of health, of solidity, and putting things back in place and enjoying life with the blessings I mean all around, you know, without getting spiritual or anything. That's just kind of how I. That's it.

Philip Pape: 44:15

So yeah, so you've carried sounds like you've carried your mother's influence with you forward in a meaningful way. It made it really mean something is what I'm hearing and has made it a source of strength and motivation for you. Is that fair?

Allan: 44:24

assessment, yes, and my grandma, my, her mother, mother when I was heavier back in the 1990s. She said to me in the kitchen one day alan, take care of yourself because nobody else will. So so both you know there's. So I've always had a history of you know, of um, I don't know, just just in general. We've always just taking care of of myself. I guess, is a mantra that's in my head Al, take care of yourself, that's it.

Philip Pape: 44:53

That sounds like exactly what you took from it and what you're doing.

Allan: 44:56

I mean you're doing that.

Philip Pape: 44:57

Everybody gets to hear you talk about this and even though we get into nuts and bolts and fun science-y stuff and how to do calorie deficits and everything, at the end of the day I think we're just saying, look, this is our one and only life and we can do something to enjoy it, and the process of doing that can be enjoyable, like, I think, a lot of what you're doing and sharing with the audience about emotional eating and lifting and everything you know. Sure, there's challenges, but it sounds like you've really embraced it. It doesn't sound like someone who's sees this as a form of suffering or a form of sacrifice. You know what I mean. Even though there's, even though it's hard, it's hard in a fulfilling way, right?

Allan: 45:33

And that's.

Philip Pape: 45:34

that's the human struggle. What, what, okay. And then you mentioned this is really great for our older lifters who are worried about injury, and you mentioned doing things that are safe but also taxing. Again, I love that juxtaposition as well, because that's exactly how I would put it. It's like we need to lift heavy as we get older, to support our spine, to support our hormones and health, but people want to do it safely. What does that mean for you?

Allan: 45:58

Form.

Philip Pape: 45:59

Form Okay, form and technique.

Allan: 46:01

Yep Total.

Allan: 46:03

Total form technique and warming up. If there's one thing I could share, no matter what kind of you know, because I'm not you know form, philip. You put on form videos. People can get form videos elsewhere, even in their gym. But the most important thing, I think, as we get older, is the warming up. Okay, I messaged you about a half a year ago or a few months ago about my warm up with squats or warm up with whatever, and I forgot exactly what it was. But and you texted me back your typical warmup, you know type or your suggestions.

Allan: 46:35

So warming up, I think, is really essential, because the one time that I got injured was the time that I pushed through my warmup because I had to take my father to a doctor appointment and I said, oh, I could skip, oh, I could skip. I went up 30 pounds instead of 15. And that's what did it. I was squatting, I was on my way up. It wasn't a crazy amount of weight for other people, but for me it's my beginning of my working weight at 150-pound squat back then and I went from like 120. And also the bar wasn't available, so I was working out in a different place in the gym. So all those things came about and the warm-up failed. I didn't warm up and I pulled my my, my attitude. So I think one thing I I'd like to say I know this was a little rambly everyone needs to warm up and then that you can count your working sets and log them in. But the warmups behind the scene are probably as important as the form, if not more important.

Philip Pape: 47:38

You just inspired me, man, to do a whole episode about this, because I think you hit on some important factors about warming up, and we're talking about warming up with the lift itself. We're not necessarily talking about like cardio or dynamic warm-ups, just literally the lift itself. You mentioned, um, or you alluded to the fact that it helps with injury, with safety, with the feel. I would say that it helps program the movement pattern as well which then kind of gets you into a safe motion before it gets heavier.

Philip Pape: 48:08

And then even, um, you know you're, you're thinking about being distracted and like trying to go too quickly, like that. That's, that's a mindfulness thing. We've got to understand that this is a important thing. We're doing, we're lifting a lot of weight and we want to, but you got to feel things out. Also, if you're recovering from an injury, I've, I've definitely told clients to warm up more, because then if it's, if they're at the point where they're recovered enough, they'll, they'll slowly feel that soreness or pain like dissipate as they warm up.

Allan: 48:36

Yes.

Philip Pape: 48:37

Because you've got that residual pain. Sometimes it's more of a mental pain than anything, but if it still hurts, you'll catch it early in the warmup. You could say, all right, I need to make an adjustment.

Allan: 48:46

One other thing that I want to hit, philip, everything you just mentioned is right on point and in my mind I just thought about something else that perhaps warming up is a form check as well. It's a period of time where you're using manageable weight and you can get that proper body angle. If you're doing, if you're doing you know barbell rows, standing barbell rows you want to get that perfect angle and that diagonal movement into your belly with the bar. You know, because you're kind of like movement and keeping your hands in a certain so like when you're using lighter weights, you can definitely get your movement intact.

Philip Pape: 49:28

Figured out oh, a hundred percent, cause it's going to be a little clumsy that first warmup set. Even if you're skilled at this, you're like kind of like getting it just right. And then you can say, oh, wait a minute, I'm not tucking the elbows, well, I'm not doing this, or whatever, and you can just yeah, exactly.

Allan: 49:42

And you know what's crazy, philip, that sometimes it's these little nuances of movement that make all the difference.

Philip Pape: 49:47

It's true, it's true, oh yeah, I preach that to the cows. Come home and every, every movement has has it's a range of things you could do.

Philip Pape: 49:55

One more thing you mentioned was you talked about A1C. For those listening, this Friday's episode is coming out with Ben Zeal really great guy, I mean, he and I are going to be friends I could tell already just from having recorded one show together and he has type one diabetes and it's all about blood sugar management combined with nutrition and training. And we get into A1C and you mentioned how building muscle we were talking about your bulk just now, alan and you talked about A1C and I want people to understand the connection is that having more muscle increases insulin sensitivity and blood sugar management to the point where my belief at this point, alan, is, unless you have a lot of weight to lose, just being active and lifting, you really don't have to worry about blood sugar. You really don't. I mean, eat balanced meals, eat nutritious food, but don't worry about it. You don't even need to measure it unless you've got some specific issue like diabetes or something. Do you agree with that or do you find that? Is that what you meant by dementia?

Allan: 50:49

you can see. Yeah, I agree, I agree. My cardiologist told me Alan, he goes. I can't believe I have diabetes and to look at him you would never know. But he said Alan, he said I have. You know he was diagnosed with diabetes and he said you know what? You know what was told to me lift weights it is, it's the solution.

Philip Pape: 51:09

He said.

Allan: 51:09

He said alan, he goes. I have a trainer now and I'm lifting weights, so so it.

Philip Pape: 51:14

Muscle is a sink of for glucose yeah, it's a sink, and the act of the act of training it also uses the, the glucose and moving and moving and not being sedentary I, I'm going to look forward to that.

Allan: 51:27

Yes, I'm going to look forward to that, but, yes, I definitely feel that, um, the whole constellation, the nutritional approach, plus the lifting weights, plus my walking, it all combines to to create a constellation of good health markers, you know, or better health markers than they would be if you weren't, if I wasn't doing this. Yeah, so, even though I still have some health markers, they've gone down. Um, I still have things, you know. I mean, you know, um, there are things I have to watch out for, which is you know that that you know, everyone has medical history, um, but it's nowhere near where it could be if I wasn't, you know. Does that make sense?

Philip Pape: 52:10

Oh, yeah, no, a hundred percent. A hundred percent, and people have to understand it. So I think your experience today, that you've shared what you've gone through, what you're going to go through, tells the story itself, makes the convincing case for it. I don't think we have to like say to the listener, hey, you need to start lifting weights. Like, just just take, do what Alan's doing, man, and you're going to be healthy, is my take on that. Just start where you're at what feels most actionable now going forward, like what's your biggest takeaway today?

Allan: 52:40

Oh man, my biggest takeaway is having a breather and saying I don't need to think about 1,200 calories, maybe I can go to 14. And that, to me, gives me such a relief because you know me, philip, I'm so fastidious, so I try to be fastidious. You know, and I was losing it because my you know I was losing that, that you know that clarity in my focus.

Philip Pape: 53:01

Confidence and clarity. Yes, I was losing the clarity.

Philip Pape: 53:05

You know, if someone's listening who has never tracked their food before and has no idea what to do, and they're frustrated, that's what you're, that's the same thing, even though, even if you're not as advanced as where Alan is like, just tracking your food and knowing what your expenditure is gives you the clarity at least know. Oh, here's why I'm not losing weight or not getting the thing I want, and and not not to let it, you know, make you feel bad, but to give you data to act from. So, and here's why I feel like I'm fighting with hunger.

Philip Pape: 53:32

And it's your body, biofeedback telling you what to do, and it's not because you eat Oreos and Lorna Dunes all the time and that's why you're hungry. It's you've got everything dialed in and your body is actually saying no, I'm hungry, and the data is now correlating, giving you the confidence that, okay, I'm not going to balloon up and wait.

Allan: 53:49

So that's number one. I just said one man.

Philip Pape: 53:51

I just said your biggest. What are you doing here? That's it. No, I'm just kidding. What's the next?

Allan: 53:55

one. No, no, there's no real next one. This just reminds me of how our coaching is so valuable and so informative. Just to be able to discuss this, come to a reasonable foundation to build upon for the next step, for the next couple of months, knowing what's going to happen in the fall, it's a beautiful feeling, a solid feeling of now I know what I'm doing and both of my feet are on the ground and I'm ready to go.

Philip Pape: 54:32

Good, that's what we want, alan. That's why we're doing these calls Um, and then people can hear what the process looks like as well. You know? Just just so, everyone knows this is a. This is a prize that Alan won, let's say, as a result of a challenge he did. He did the um. That was the rapid fat loss challenge, right? Uh, that he won't, he won't. He was voted the winner and we do these challenges and if you're voted the winner, you get a free call like this or you can do it for the record, for the podcast.

Philip Pape: 54:52

But more importantly is um the, the support that you get. Like Alan mentioned, sometimes you need a third party to talk to you and you know, if you don't have a lot of money and you want to join a free Facebook group, we have that. Come in and say hello and talk about your issues. We were just having a chat in the Facebook group chat today. Somebody was asking about protein and they said they were eating amino acids and I kind of challenged them and said you know you may be wasting your money. You could just eat real food and get great results and you know, it's those little things that people just need that third-party perspective. If you want a little more, if you want more custom support, check out Physique University. It's two weeks free. Alan's been there for a while because he doesn't want to leave. We've got coaching calls, you've got nutrition plan, you've got workout programs. You've had a lot of great people. Alan, is there anything else you want to add about that or anything else before we sign off?

Allan: 55:51

No, wlpu is a great forum, for we share ideas, we share support, we share recipes. It's just. This is a great place, it's a great forum. It's one of the things I check out in the morning while I'm having my coffee and see if anybody posted from the previous evening. It's just a great way, great structure, and it's a great way to access some of your coaching too, philip.

Philip Pape: 56:08

Yeah, for sure. No, I mean, I'm in there every day. You guys can tag me, we've got the courses, we've got all the fun stuff, but I anyway not to make this a pitch for it, but that is how Alan ended up on the show today and I want to thank you everybody for checking this out. Alan, thank you so much for being open about things. You know you're great at digging in to the details, but also tying it to your why and tying it to the history of what's important to you, and this is an honest conversation that is going to help people. So I thank you so much.

Allan: 56:35

You're welcome, you're welcome, and thank you for everything you do for the, for the fitness community.

Lose Fat and Get Shredded with Less Effort and More Energy (Alex Feinberg) | Ep 340

Grab your FREE Ultimate Macros Guide, designed for those who are serious about optimizing their physique. It's not a quick fix; it's a playbook that teaches you how to make smart eating choices, track your biofeedback, and implement gradual changes for success.

–

Are you chasing success but running on empty? Do your workouts feel harder yet deliver fewer results? What if your energy, not your money, is the real currency of success?

I sit down with Alex Feinberg, ex-pro athlete, former Google exec, and elite performance coach, to break down how high achievers can stay lean, energized, and efficient all year long. We explore why doubling your training volume might be hurting your progress, how to optimize your metabolism for maximum fat loss, and why treating energy like currency changes everything. Alex also reveals simple frameworks to track recovery, train smarter (not harder), and turn your body into a high-performance machine. 

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:35 – Why energy beats more money
4:30 – How high performers get stuck
6:58 – The kingpin habit that changes everything
13:15 – The myth of the 3 PM crash
18:39 – How carbs affect sleep and energy
24:37 – Why your workouts aren’t working
33:04 – High-intensity training, defined
38:25 – How to stay shredded eating pizza
44:39 – Processed food vs real food
50:02 – Train what you usually ignore
53:13 – Fitness is your wealth-building shortcut

Episode resources:

• Website:  feinbergsystems.com 

• Instagram: @alexfeinbergofficial 

• X: @alexfeinberg1 

• Facebook: @alexfeinbergofficial 

• Youtube: @alexfeinberg1

How to Burn Fat and Build a Powerful Physique by Working Less, Not More

If you're a high performer chasing career success while feeling worn down, depleted, and out of shape, you are not alone. Most ambitious professionals fall into the trap of trading energy for productivity. But what if the real key to building your best physique and unlocking higher performance is doing less, not more?

In this episode, we explore how energy, not time or money, is your most valuable asset. You will learn why the smartest fat loss strategies are often the simplest, how to build a shredded body while eating pizza, and how to train in a way that actually fuels your lifestyle instead of draining it.

Energy as a Leverage Point

Alex Feinberg breaks down a concept many overlook. If you wake up energized, recovered, and clear-headed, you will do better work, have better relationships, and make better decisions. That energy multiplies everything else. On the flip side, if you are constantly drained, even simple tasks feel overwhelming. Over time, low energy becomes the bottleneck that limits both health and success.

Instead of focusing on how much time you work, try asking yourself where your energy is going. Sleep, training, food, and recovery are all inputs that influence your energy output. You cannot separate physical capacity from mental performance.

What You’re Optimizing For Matters

Most people operate from a disorganized checklist. They react to whatever fire is burning the brightest. But this scattered approach burns you out and prevents strategic growth. One of the most powerful habits you can adopt is to identify your “kingpin” activity each day. Often, that is anything that increases your energy. Lifting, walking, getting to bed on time, or simply eating meals that support satiety and mental clarity.

Your physique and your business are both downstream from your physiology. So the smartest play isn’t to push harder. It is to remove the things that drag your energy down and double down on habits that create momentum.

How Most People Get Training Completely Wrong

Here is the truth: training hard is not the same as training smart. If your workouts leave you wrecked, sore, and dreading the next session, you are not setting yourself up for long-term results. Your goal should be to train in a way that supports progress without stealing energy from the rest of your life.

That means focusing on intensity over volume. Quality over quantity. Recovery over fatigue.

Feinberg points out that the average person thinks “hard” means sweaty, sore, and exhausted. But if you care about results, the best training is the kind that builds strength over time without grinding you down. That could mean 9 to 15 total working sets per session, just three days a week, with full rest between sets and plenty of recovery days.

The Morning Training Advantage

We covered one of the most overlooked advantages in training: lifting early in the day. Not only does morning training energize you for the rest of the day, but it also gives you social and psychological leverage. When people know you lift before work, you instantly stand out. You’re seen as disciplined, driven, and someone who handles stress. That changes how others treat you.

And, surprisingly, it often takes less time than trying to cram it into a packed evening. You gain energy, productivity, and better sleep. It’s a compound interest effect that builds over months and years.

Build a Metabolism That Burns More at Rest

Feinberg shared his personal results: reaching 4 percent body fat while eating over 3,000 calories per day of real food like tacos, burgers, and pizza. The key? Training that increased his resting metabolic rate. When your body becomes more metabolically active, you burn more at rest than most people burn working out.

You don’t need extreme workouts. You need training that increases performance over time. That includes interval cardio, sprint-style workouts, and leg-focused training that builds the biggest muscles in your body.

And yes, you can eat indulgent meals. Just adjust the portions, make them yourself with quality ingredients, and center them around protein.

Real Food, Not Restriction

Eating for satiety and recovery is far more sustainable than constant restriction. Instead of rigid calorie limits or cutting out entire food groups, ask yourself two questions: Am I hungry? Am I full?

If you focus on whole, protein-dominant foods and let your hunger guide you, you’ll naturally avoid overeating. Feinberg also recommends not eating just because “you have calories left.” That kind of thinking builds habits that increase cravings, not satiety.

Why Fitness Comes First

This is the part most people avoid saying out loud: how you look affects how others treat you. Studies show that good-looking people make more money and are more likely to get hired or promoted. And whether we like it or not, being fit and energetic makes you more attractive, more persuasive, and more influential.

So if you're ambitious, the inside track is not just working harder in your job. It's making yourself an energetic, healthy, and strong person who stands out without even trying. That’s leverage.

Practical Steps to Apply Today

• Identify your kingpin habit that raises your energy (e.g. sleep, lifting, walks)

• Shift training to the morning if possible, even 2–3 times a week

• Focus on intensity over volume in the gym

• Stack meals around protein and avoid midday carb bombs

• Use cravings and hunger, not rules, to guide food choices

• Do 1–2 sprint-style workouts per week for maximum impact

• Prep real food in bulk to make healthy eating effortless

You do not need to push harder. You need to get strategic. Create a lifestyle that feeds your energy, not one that burns it up.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a go-getter, high performer, and you're grinding yourself into the ground, chasing success while your energy tanks and your physique suffers. Listen up. My guest today reveals why the most successful people treat energy like currency, and how you can achieve and stay healthy, even shredded year-round, while working not more, but more efficiently. You'll discover why trying to do more with your training is holding you back some surprising mental models to make fat loss easier, and why doubling your protein on pizza might be the smartest nutrition hack you've never tried. You don't have to trade your health, energy or physique to be successful in your business or career. You can have both, and today you're going to learn how to make it happen without burning out. And today you're going to learn how to make it happen without burning out. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:56

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're digging into the realities of being a high performer without letting your health suffer. We're going to discuss the concept of treating energy as your most valuable asset if you want to transform both your physique and your success. My guest today is Alex Feinberg, a former professional baseball player, hedge fund analyst and Google executive who now coaches high-performing men on what he calls insane efficiency. We love efficiency on this show, so I'm excited to talk to him today. Alex has developed a unique philosophy, and it's based on psychology, behavioral economics and lots of other concepts that come together to help high performers achieve better results with less work, to stay lean while eating foods they love, and to build sustainable success without flaming out. Today, you're going to learn why intensity might trump volume in training, how to identify the highest leverage actions that make everything else easier, and why Alex believes energy is literally the new money. Alex, welcome to the show.

Alex Feinberg: 1:56

Thank you very much for having me, Philip.

Philip Pape: 1:59

So you've said that making money with energy is easier than making money with energy. What do you mean by that?

Alex Feinberg: 2:05

Well, what I said is making money with energy is easier than making energy with money. And to put that more precisely, say there's a billionaire and you tell that billionaire, would you give up half of your net worth to double your energy? Or would you give up half of your energy to double your net worth? Which would you even bet on personally? A person with a ton of energy with a $500 million net worth or a person with almost no energy and a $2 billion net worth? Who do you think is going to be ahead five or 10 years from now?

Alex Feinberg: 2:35

Energy can be converted into money. If you wake up and you're in shape and you've slept seven hours and you have a couple wins under your belt from the previous weeks or months, you're unstoppable. And just think in your life, how many wins have you had when you felt unstoppable versus how many wins have you had when you woke up? You feel terrible. Your body isn't giving you the right signals. It's hard for you to work an eight hour day, let alone 10 or 12. Which person do you want to be and which person do you think is better suited to succeed in a highly competitive world? The guy with energy is going to win over the long run, and so the person who's optimizing for energy is going to end up with more money than the person who's optimizing for money over energy.

Philip Pape: 3:19

Yeah, that makes total sense. First of all, did I say it backward Because when you said it, I looked at my notes and it was exactly what was written there, so I must have just flipped it out of my mouth. That's pretty cool. So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, not even conventional wisdom, but just intuition and my own experience, having not focused on health much of my life and chased my career and getting more tired and worn down with age. Just the idea that fitness, health, strength, all the aspects of energy that I think we're going to talk about today are leverage points, right, they allow you to do more, they allow you to accelerate everything else. And there's a client I can think of who is very much focused on his fitness, but his brother is very much focused on his wealth and his brother is far out of shape and always out of energy and not able to work the hours. And it makes a lot of sense.

Philip Pape: 4:08

But I want to get into a little more, because you've worked in finance, you've worked in tech, athletics. I love the combination of, probably, numbers tracking, optimization, all that fun stuff, but we can go overboard on some of that. I know we can, and we can talk about it. Um, you talk about people optimizing for the wrong thing. So let's get into this a little bit. You know, when people are way off base, like what's when it comes to this stuff, what's happening?

Alex Feinberg: 4:30

Well, especially financially successful people. You know, most people will judge their self-worth based on the thing that they assume themselves to be good at, and so smart people will judge their self-worth based on their intelligence relative to other people. Good looking people will judge their self-worth based on how good they look relative to other people, and people who make a lot of money will judge their self-worth frequently based on how much money they have relative to other people. And if you're in the latter bucket, very commonly you can look at your bank statements, look at your brokerage statements and mistakenly think that if the number has gone down, I am worth less than when the number goes up, and what that means is on a short-term basis, you're more likely to go through a proper probably disorganized checklist of all the things you need to do to get your cashflow up that month without necessarily paying attention to how it's making your body feel or the long-term health implications of your decisions. But if you think about what your life would look like if you continue to make the trade-offs that you're making, not just for the next year, but the next five years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years very often you might find yourself in a position with more money than you can spend and you're going to run out of money before you run out of time.

Alex Feinberg: 5:37

And so, realistically, if you want to attack life in the most intelligent way possible, you need to understand where you are most resource constrained. And you are most resource constrained if you're already wealthy around energy and around number of quality of years left. And so I know people. I've worked with people who have FU level money eight plus figures of liquid net worth post-tax and they're concerned about getting an extra $20,000, $30,000 in free cash flow the next month when they're a couple dozen pounds overweight. And it's like dude, you are at a high predisposition to have a life-ending event earlier than you want to, and you're optimizing for a dollar amount that is going to be basically inconsequential for you in the long term. What matters is the amount of quality years that you have left on this planet, and if you have an eight-figure net worth, chances are prioritizing your health above all else is going to maximize those numbers rather than maximizing the number of dollars that you see in your brokerage statement.

Philip Pape: 6:37

So what I'm hearing is that if you're massively wealthy and not focusing on your health, it's going to still hurt your further accumulation of wealth, and if you're not wealthy, not focusing on your health prevents you from accumulating. In other words, reinforcing kind of the main message here about the importance of your health and the energy behind all of this. You talked about a disorganized checklist. Tell us more about what that means for people.

Alex Feinberg: 6:58

Most people will wake up and they have a million things to do and they only have 15 hours to get them done, 12 hours to get them done, 16 hours to get them done. If they're working all day, and very frequently people will focus on the thing that hurts the most. The fire that's burning the brightest gets the most attention. The wheel that is the squeakiest gets the most attention. Unfortunately, if you approach problem solving like that, you end up spread too thin and you're not solving as many problems as you possibly could solve. So what I tell people to do, and what I try to do myself, is identify a kingpin around which you can knock out one problem that leads to other problems being solved more easily. So a great kingpin is your energy right? If you sleep seven hours, wake up, get a workout done before 9am, chances are the next 10 hours of your day are going to be twice as productive as if you were up until 2am the night before. You got five or six hours of sleep. You didn't get a workout in. You skipped breakfast. You're running on coffee and adrenaline. You didn't get a workout in. You skipped breakfast. You're running on coffee and adrenaline.

Alex Feinberg: 8:10

Like that is not high quality work that you're outputting.

Alex Feinberg: 8:12

And sure, there may be times where you have no choice for a one, two, three day sprint, one, two week sprint, I get that. But if that's your everyday approach, you are leaving so much progress on the table because you're just not going to be as creative as you could possibly be by shortchanging yourself on sleep and shortchanging yourself on exercise. Ultimately, in a highly competitive economy, you need to be able to bring ideas, services and products to the table that are differentiated from the competition, which require innovation and require creativity to put to market. If you don't sleep, if you don't have yourself at a high energy, high optimism, high confidence place, you're just not going to be able to bring a competitively differentiated product to market and ultimately, you're going to lose market share, which is the first step to you losing pricing power, which is the first step to you becoming a slave in our capitalist system. You need to have a differentiated point to offer the market and you're not going to have it if you feel like crap all the time.

Philip Pape: 9:07

Yeah, all I could imagine is running around putting out fires all day, right? I see it in my career as well, where the urgent but not important things get the attention right and sometimes it's the I'll say, the easy, simple tasks on your checklist, because now you're busy, you're checking them off. It makes a lot of sense and the kingpin approach is a good way to put it. So you also talked about, in terms of context of energy, how your body feels, or listening to your body, and that term gets thrown around a lot, but I agree that it's a common thread in this space. What do you mean by that and how can someone objectively listen to their body and understand how their body feels right now, when they're in the thick of this kind of lifestyle you're talking about and need to take a step back?

Alex Feinberg: 10:33

Well, it's a lot easier to understand your body if you have a history of playing sports. It's a little bit less easy when you don't, because you become attenuated to feeling like crap. It might be a pleasant surprise, or a shocking surprise, that most people who are healthy don't feel like crap every day. They don't feel tired. In fact, they feel invigorated and excited to get work done that you might find to be anxiety-inducing. Try it. Try two different approaches. One you sleep five hours. One you sleep seven hours. You view the exact same task or exact same person. If you slept seven hours, you view the task that might be daunting as challenging and cool and exciting. You might view a person who, with five hours of sleep, you view exhausting. With seven hours of sleep, you view energizing, exhilarating, and so you are more open to enjoying the challenges of life. When you have more energy and if you're the type of person who can look at a challenging situation and say, no, hey guys, I know this is going to be hard but it's going to be fun, you're going to become the type of leader that other people want to be around.

Alex Feinberg: 11:36

So if you don't know how your energy is number one, if you're testing yourself in the gym, testing yourself cardio wise. You're testing yourself weight wise. You know if your output is lagging behind your normal sessions. Now, that might not be because of sleep, it might be because you're dehydrated, it might be because you're not eating enough protein or not eating enough whole foods to get the amount of macro or micronutrients. But if you get yourself on a reasonably consistent gym schedule, you will know if your output is lagging where it normally is, and that is a very strong indicator of your recovery levels and your energy. That is, of course, if you're not tracking it with a whoop or an aura, which I don't, because I prefer using gym metrics to inform me on my recovery rather than artificially or scientifically created recovery metrics that are meant to approximate my ability to perform in the gym. The number one criteria for if you're recovered is if you can physically perform and mentally perform, and so your performance marks are going to be the most accurate measurement of your actual recovery.

Philip Pape: 12:37

I'm so glad you said that, because we are definitely all about lifting in an intelligent way that balances the stress versus the recovery and sometimes recovery is the missing piece here and the idea of using a consistent gym schedule, whether it's three, four, five days a week, whatever, and going in and you know pretty much like clockwork how you feel, I mean, to the level of eating the twice-sized banana before your workout affects you this way and affect you this way yesterday, and it's, rather than being a lagging indicator or, like you said, a number which is at best a correlation that may not even be accurate on a wearable, you know you can get more reps or you're maybe not eating enough, not sleeping enough, whatever.

Philip Pape: 13:15

Before we get into the gym stuff, because I definitely want to talk about it is it normal for someone to wake up in the morning and have what you described in terms of energy, right, super excited, ready to go face the challenging projects head on, and by one, two o'clockclock that has completely flipped, you know, cause? This is the normal profile we hear from people is that drop throughout the day, the 3 PM energy crash, the total, I mean, you know, by six, 7 PM at night? You don't want to do anything. You want to binge Netflix. Is that normal? Is some level of that Okay, like what? What are your thoughts on that?

Alex Feinberg: 13:47

Well, by population standards, it is normal, whether it's normal or healthy or necessary or three different uh you know questions or forms of evaluation. I would say a vast majority of adults experience that, but if you're aware of the foods that you put in your body and the pace at which you work and how that makes you feel, uh, you can stave off probably two-thirds of that. I got off of a call with one of my clients a few weeks ago who's just absolutely burned out with his work at his startup, especially coupled with the side business that he runs, and I told him look, you have three options because even if you're managing your energy as efficiently as you possibly can, um, uh, from a sleep standpoint, from a training standpoint, from a diet standpoint, you need to work less. And there's three things that we can have you do. We can have you delegate more, and we've already gone through your schedule and we can reasonably assume that 10% of the things you're doing you can delegate. So it's not like 100% you can just farm out, but most people they can look through their action items and if they have a 12-hour exhausting workday, 10% of that can probably be delegated to other people.

Alex Feinberg: 14:53

You can decline other things. And so this is what one of the benefits of being a high performer who's kind of irreplaceable is if he declines work, what is his employer going to do? It's a little bit different if you run your own company but he's an executive at someone else's company. You can decline work right, where it's going to be a lot easier for them to find somebody else to do the work that he's declining than it is for them to replace him. So he can decline the work, delegate decline or ignore. The third thing is if it's a low priority item, he can just ignore it. You don't have to do everything that you're expected to do. And the specific case for him was there was one piece of a puzzle that impacted forecasts for a small percentage of his company's quarterly revenue, and the reality was the amount of time that it would take him to do this thing right would be insignificant compared to the amount of time it would create to just grow the business by 5% extra. So rather than get the forecast right to a 10th of a percent or a half of a percent, why don't we just figure out how we can grow the business by 5% and say, hey, sorry, I didn't have enough time to do all the other things, and so there's typically ways that we can augment performance while reducing the amount of demands that people feel, and what that will allow them to do is pace themselves a little bit more evenly or intelligently throughout the day.

Alex Feinberg: 16:11

Because even if your sleep is on point, even if your training and diet is on point, you could find yourself tired at 3 PM and, by 7 PM, just wanting to go home, have a drink and watch TV. Okay, so that's number one. We need to figure out how you can be more efficient with less time. Number two we need to be more efficient with how we train and how we eat. So morning training will wake you up for the day. Evening training will typically wake you up at night and will make it harder for you to recover and will make it harder for you to have energy the next day. So I much prefer morning training or lunchtime training is early in the day for people who can do it.

Alex Feinberg: 16:45

The second thing is try not to overload on carbs at lunch.

Alex Feinberg: 16:49

Right, I know that pasta might seem appealing, I know pizza might seem appealing, a huge burrito bowl might seem appealing, but if you're going to overload yourself with carbs at lunch, you're going to get a huge insulin spike after lunch and you're going to want to take a nap. And maybe you work for a Chinese company, like the company I worked for when I was working in the cryptocurrency space, where you can take a nap at your desk for 20 or 30 minutes after lunch. But chances are, if you work in the United States, you don't, and it's not common for you to be taking a post lunch siesta. And so if that's not common for you, then we need to be more intelligent about how many carbs we're consuming and when we're consuming them. So skip the carb bomb in the afternoon and you will not have an insulin bomb in the afternoon. And if you don't have an insulin bomb in the afternoon and if you don't have an insulin bomb in the afternoon, chances are you're not going to have that lethargy that you've been experiencing.

Philip Pape: 17:35

Two three, four o'clock and beyond. Yeah, cool. So I'm just taking notes here because I agree with everything you said and some of this has. For some of us, we've learned through the school of hard knocks.

Philip Pape: 17:44

right, let's be honest, or we're self-included right or working with clients, because I can think of one client right now who's faced the fear of carbs.

Philip Pape: 17:51

He's super lean, high performer, very much afraid to gain weight and afraid to eat carbs. But what you're talking about here is there is an experimentation aspect to this as well. There's data and tracking. We can get into what tracking means, because I've heard you talk about people obsessing over tracking too much for what they get out of it is not worth what the effort it takes to track, kind of like your example with ignoring things or declining things or delegating. So when it comes to carbs, for example, that's just a great, highly effective tip. As well as working out in the morning and I know people make excuses for things and we can talk about maybe how to get around those but when you combine eating a good breakfast, having carbs around your training, having a balanced lunch and then would you agree, having some carbs, that in the evening can be helpful for folks. I know for some it helps with sleep. What are your thoughts on that?

Alex Feinberg: 18:39

I mean I would prefer to be stacking more food earlier in the day and I don't necessarily do this by example Like, if you actually look at my meals I eat, my dinner is my biggest meal and that's not supposed to be the case, because it does affect your sleep quality.

Alex Feinberg: 18:50

But yeah, I mean, if carbs at night make it easier for you to sleep, it's because of the insulin that you get after you eat the carbs. The carbs themselves should make it harder for you to sleep, and so the question is are you waking up in the middle of the night, perhaps more than you commonly do after eating like large bowls of pasta for dinner? And if that's the case, then maybe those carbs are helping you go to sleep, but they're not helping you stay asleep. So be cognizant of that. Pay attention to how you feel after eating certain meals, and if you have outcomes that you want to repeat, perhaps consider repeating those meals, and if you have outcomes that you do not want to repeat, consider not repeating those meals. I know it sounds crazy, but your body will have very predictable responses to things that are good for it and bad for it, so just pay attention.

Philip Pape: 19:32

That's the best tip you can give of the whole podcast, and the one that people, I think, ignore the most is they want an answer. They want you to tell them what to do, and I'm like usually the answer is your body will tell you what to do. You've just got to try it. Like it may not work, so try it. The morning training, too, is another one that I just get. I see so much resistance about where you've got these trade-offs you're making. You're like okay, if I train in the morning I have to get up earlier. Does that mean it now cuts into my sleep? But of course you're pulling it from somewhere else. Assuming you're training consistently already and it's like 4 PM training, how do you shift it to the morning? What are the biggest roadblocks you see for folks trying to make that move?

Alex Feinberg: 20:09

Here's the deal. Okay, when I worked in corporate America, I got up earlier than everybody else that I worked with, but I was one of the last people in the office and nobody cared. And the reason nobody cared wasn't because I was the top producer, it was because I had the best physique of anybody on the floor and everybody knew that I was up early, working hard. And so if nobody actually cares if you're the first person in the office, people care if you're lazy, and so if you realize that you're not being judged on the things that you think you're being judged on, you're being judged more primally. And if people know that you're up moving weights and sweating in the morning, you have a much wider grace period in most professions than other people.

Alex Feinberg: 20:55

Training in the afternoon does not afford you that luxury. So you will not get away with leaving work early, so you can go to the gym as easy as you will get away with showing up to work late because you are at the gym, okay, and so remember, this is not. This does not mathematically even out. There are certain buckets that you can pull from that. Don't just net out If you can do it the same thing later in the day. You need to understand where the cheat codes are, and the cheat code is if you get up an hour earlier, say, it takes you two hours to get to the gym, train, shower, do all that stuff. If you get up an hour earlier than everybody that you work with and you get to work an hour later than everybody you work with, but everybody knows that you were training your butt off, nobody's going to care.

Alex Feinberg: 21:38

Okay, so you're actually saving time. Instead of using those same two hours after work to get to the gym to work out, to shower, you're using them before work. It takes half the time. Okay, in addition to it taking half the time, you're going to be probably 10 to 20% more productive during your day for having got that workout done before, and your sleep is probably going to be 10 to 20% better because you're not. You know, you don't have adrenaline running through your veins from, you know, finishing a workout and maybe a pre-workout drink at 5, 6, 7 pm.

Alex Feinberg: 22:12

So you're not actually investing more time. You're investing substantially less time going to the gym when you do it early in the morning, but it does require that you wake up and go do it, and so look, if you can't wake up to an alarm. I know you can wake up to an early alarm. You've had an early flight, but you've had an alarm go off to and you've not missed the flight most times, so you can get up. It might take a week or two or three weeks of adjustment, but you're going to end up getting hundreds of hours of productivity back by making that switch, and those are the switches that you need to make, the ones that will pay you back in time and energy over the long run.

Alex Feinberg: 22:48

You make investments. You make financial investments. You're investing $100,000 in something this year where you could buy a nice Mercedes, or you could put $100,000 into a stock or cryptocurrency or something that you expect to grow over time. Well, the same thing is true with your time and your energy. You can invest a small amount of time and a small amount of energy in the morning and over time, you'll get that time back, you'll get that energy back and ultimately, it will grow and multiply in the long run, the same way a financial investment will.

Philip Pape: 23:19

Is this the suspiciously simple logic you talk about a lot Because you made a lot of points that are almost never made related to the efficiency of morning workouts. Right, we could argue for having more energy. That's awesome, but the fact that not training in the morning and trying to train in the afternoon has all these other implications were judged primally. That's a great way to put it judged primally. I see that myself and, having worked in a field with engineers and software folks who roll in at 10 o'clock anyway, it almost doesn't matter, and since COVID now, people working hybrid and everything generally doesn't matter. I'm sure there's specific jobs where you know if you have to clock in. Unfortunately, that's a different situation. No-transcript. Why are the way most people training not working for them and holding them back Even if they do track?

Alex Feinberg: 24:37

their workouts, but they're chasing the wrong thing. It's because most people either don't think about fitness 11 months out of the year and then one month out of the year, they look at themselves in the mirror and they're disgusted by it and they think that they have a penance to pay, and they think that, because they've been gluttonous for the previous 11 months, that the opposite of gluttony is the solution to their problem. Number one or number two they're stuck in intermediate mode. Intermediate mode meaning maybe they were overweight a couple, two, three years ago and the way they got out of being significantly overweight was by never missing a workout, by being consistent, by maybe tracking their macros, and they're so scared to regress from the changes that they made to go from beginner to intermediate that they're incapable of making the changes that are necessary to go from intermediate to advanced. And so, typically, when when you're going from beginner to intermediate, you do need to undergo a little bit more pain, you do need to get a little bit sore, you do need to sweat a little bit more than you were accustomed to, but success isn't linear, and so simply doubling the changes that you made to go from beginner to intermediate does not guarantee that you're going to go from intermediate to advanced.

Alex Feinberg: 25:41

In fact, frequently it can lead you to burning out faster or even regressing, and so, unfortunately, a lot of offerings that are made to people commercially are built around the myths that people have about what they need to do to be fit, namely sweat a lot, get sore or try something really hard. I get so many people say, oh, you should try this workout, you should try CrossFit, it's really hard. Or you should try this workout it's. It makes you super sore. Like, I don't care about those things. What I care about is being able to run faster and lift progressively heavier weights, and if it's hard and doesn't allow me to do that, that is the worst workout I could possibly do, because it is a high investment, low return workout.

Alex Feinberg: 26:18

It's going to suck and you're not going to get anything for it, yeah Right, if it's easy and it lets me do those things. That was the best workout that I can possibly do, because it is a low investment, high return workout, and the reason why people should be focused on their output more than their input is because having a high resting metabolic rate will burn far more calories outside the gym than having a high calorie burning workout will burn inside the gym. So in my early 30s, I was in far better shape as a cryptocurrency executive than I was as a professional athlete in my early 20s, and this is not supposed to happen, because my genetics are the same and I wasn't on any performance enhancing drugs and I had a full-time job. But what was different was I was allowing myself to take days off whenever I wanted to take them off, when my body was telling me to take them off. I was able to train exactly the way that I wanted to train, taking as much rest periods in between sets as I wanted to, as well as in between workouts. Like I had mentioned, what that enabled me to do was train at a higher capacity than I had ever trained before, meaning I was running faster, or at least my intervals were faster than they were in my early 20s. The weights I was lifting were heavier than they were in my early 20s because I was doing less of it.

Alex Feinberg: 27:26

Okay, so, because I was doing less of it, I was able to get to 4% body fat using hydrostatic testing. Shredded abs, eating three to 4,000 calories every single day of like pizza, burgers, fried chicken and tacos Awesome food. Never in a million years did I ever think I would look like that. That was not my intention when I underwent those workouts. All I wanted to do was perform at a higher level and I couldn't figure out why I was getting in such good shape, considering I was not in that shape in my early 20s, when I was actually getting paid money to play sports.

Alex Feinberg: 27:56

Okay, so enter the basal metabolic test right, where I had my my basal metabolic rate tested by body spec, who also does DEXA scans, and I went in and I found out that my body was burning like 3,300 calories estimated on days that I didn't even work out. That was just about a 2,600 calorie resting metabolic rate plus 700 calories like talking to people on podcasts or writing emails or walking to the refrigerator, like not including any exercise. And so, clearly, the way that I was training in the gym was leading me to burn almost a thousand calories more than the average male my age. On days that all I did was sit on the couch, okay.

Alex Feinberg: 28:40

So most workouts that you do, the really hard workouts where you sweat a lot and got really sore don't allow you to burn 1000 calories in the gym. Okay. Well, just like, investing in the right cryptocurrencies and investing in the right equities will lead to a far greater financial return than getting a job that pays you a lot of money on a monthly basis, investing in the right exercises will yield a far better resting metabolic rate benefit than will going to the gym and doing a very hard workout that makes you sweat a lot and gets you really sore.

Philip Pape: 29:11

Yeah, I 100% agree with that. I think this easy versus hard and the compound interest from your metabolism are highly misunderstood concepts and, like you mentioned, you can only burn so many calories working out and there's lots of issues with that too, because that's not why we work out, we train. It also doesn't hold up when we look at the constrained energy model and how we adapt and all of those things become more efficient, which backfires. When it comes to that, I want to just sit on the easy versus hard spectrum because a while ago, when I was revisiting the language of my podcast description, right, One of the phrases you hear a lot is work smarter, not harder, and I think that's a misphrased.

Philip Pape: 29:51

I don't know, you tell me, but like, I always think it's work smarter, not harder, right, but you still have to work. Quote unquote hard Hard is kind of subjective, I guess in some way Do you think it's an inverse curve of like easy versus hard and the output when it comes to training? Well, almost like there's a profit maximization curve, like right in the middle you have to find like the price versus, you know, demand, or is it more of a? There's always a hard, it's the type of hard.

Alex Feinberg: 30:18

Well, there's that too.

Philip Pape: 30:19

It's the type of hard right yeah.

Alex Feinberg: 30:20

Your workouts need to be hard, Like you're not going to increase your workout capacity by not going through singular moments of discomfort, right? So if you want to get better at running intervals which I think has a very strong correlation with your not just VO two max but your resting metabolic rate those are going to be uncomfortable, particularly the last 10, 20, 30 seconds of your last two, three, four intervals. They are, there's no two ways about it, but that doesn't mean they should be hard every single day without resting ever, Right? Uh, your last few reps of a set are going to be hard, but that doesn't mean you need to do 20 of those sets, Okay. So there is a? Uh, you know, just like you said, there's, there's an efficient frontier of how hard it needs to be, and ideally it needs to be very hard, but there doesn't need to be that much of it.

Alex Feinberg: 31:11

And so if you think about a workout that I'll do, you know I'm only doing nine to 15 sets in the gym three days a week for lifting gym, three days a week for lifting. Now, those sets might require multiple warmup sets, but it's nine to 15 working sets plus 13 minutes of cardio most of the time. So I'm doing a 13 minute cardio warm up, Um, and then I'm doing a nine to 13 set lift high intensity. Right, it takes me four minutes of rest to recover from my sets because they're they're at, you know, near peak load.

Philip Pape: 31:46

Yeah, let's define intensity. We're meaning we're meaning the training context of intensity as in load, just so people don't think intensity means something else.

Alex Feinberg: 31:53

Yeah, so I'm pushing my body and all of my lifts require a tremendous amount of core engagement, a tremendous amount of lute engagement, a tremendous amount of lat engagement, because everything in your core is going to make it easier for you to move weight and so, especially as you become more effective at lifting weights, what it is is. It's a neurological change that your body makes by being able to harness a greater portion of your skeleton. And when you're able to harness a greater portion of your skeleton to move weight, you need to rest longer in between sets, you need to rest longer in between workouts, but that's the only thing that you can do to continue to push your body to get stronger and better and maintain or increase your resting metabolic rate over time, and so you ultimately learn to deal with the discomfort of those last one, two, three reps of you know six, seven, eight sets per workout, and then that's all it is. But if you look at, you know a lot of the commercial classes, whether it's an orange theory or something similar, it's like they're doing, you know, a set every 60 seconds. You're doing 45 sets in a workout. It's like and those are all hard Every rep burns and I guarantee you, my reps, don't burn.

Alex Feinberg: 33:04

Yeah, burn is not the, is not the feeling that I feel when I'm close to failure. My sets are hard but they don't burn, and so realize that burning is simply a, a feeling of lactic acid buildup. And unless you're talking about doing, you know, assault bites, bike sprints, which will burn, um, and you will have a lactic acid buildup. If you want to set PRs, doing those, your lifts really shouldn't burn. Um, when you're, when you're nearing mechanical failure, you're going to near mechanical failure.

Philip Pape: 33:34

Your body's going to get fatigued, but it's not going to burn, yeah totally agree, and I think there, when people get started on a proper strength training program with all that rest and recovery, what looks like a bare minimum effective dose of sets? If you looked at just hypertrophy literature, which is not what we're necessarily talking about, right, we're talking about strength and hypertrophy. It depends on your goal. People are always surprised Like I'm not sore, am I actually making progress? And I think that's where the initial doubt sets in, for a beginner perhaps. And then they need to do with the tracking that you talked about and actually show that no, you're actually getting stronger, you're getting a result here. What's your ideal type of approach for a beginner? Is it a starting strength style like barbell program? Yeah, yeah.

Alex Feinberg: 34:18

So I mean you don't need to do barbell if you're a beginner, especially if you're a beginner, especially if you're you're into your 30s, 40s or beyond. Dumbbells are are fairly appropriate. I don't have anybody barbell squat, uh, you know if they haven't barbell squatted, uh, it's just not a movement that I think is really great for beginners, requires more balance and mobility than most people have. But if you've done it, you know how to do it. Okay, like we can talk about safer variants of lower, uh less lower, lumbar stress. And then I prefer dumbbell bench press to a barbell bench press. But you know, like three by 10, three by eight, three by five style workouts are fine for beginners. The difference, uh, I would actually prefer higher reps for beginners because beginners need to practice lifting weights. So, just like shooting free throws or hitting baseballs, you become more efficient at doing things that you have a lot of practice reps doing. And if you're just starting out lifting weights, I think a lot of newbie gains are from people just practicing lifting, and so a lot of the ideas that people have about what they need to do to be more effective as a lifter are what they need to do to be more effective as a beginner lifter. So never miss a workout when you're a beginner because even if you're tired, your body can still use the practice.

Alex Feinberg: 35:28

But once you've gotten through those first two or three years, then it requires a little bit of an adjustment where you have to start paying attention to how your body feels. If you pay attention to how your body feels as a beginner, you're never going to go to the gym the second day you're there because the first day it's going to get too sore. But if you don't pay attention to how your body feels and you're 10 years in, blow a disc out, you could, you know you could sublux certain things, you put yourself at injury risk that you don't want to be in. And so oftentimes life is challenging because the lessons that we learned yesterday are not applicable today and the things that allowed us to get to halfway up the mountain are not going to allow us to get all the way up the summit. And we need to be nimble cognitively nimble enough to recognize when the things that worked in the past are not going to work in the future.

Philip Pape: 36:10

Yeah, cognitively nimble, that is true. Sometimes I use the image that the person we are is constantly changing, right, even when you're talking about your diet and how you respond to say, a calorie deficit may change from fat loss phase to fat loss phase because the person you are in that moment has a lot of different variables going on in your life and the person you are and your body has changed, etc. You talked earlier about the linear approach works at first for beginners. You can have a lot of frequency, like you can get into the gym frequently and recover fairly quickly and grow fairly quickly. Fairly quickly, would you say that the executives and high performers you work with are mostly in the beginner camp because they've neglected their health and starting off, or a lot of them have really tried to go to the gym and now they're close to that intermediate point.

Alex Feinberg: 36:51

A lot of the people that I work with may be technically in the beginner camp because of what they've done over the last six months, but that doesn't mean that they're going to follow a beginner style trajectory, because if you've built up training capacity, even if it was 20 years ago, uh, yes, you may be on a three by 10 style plan for your first six months, but you're going to you're going to get that get those gains back very quickly, um, and if you're consistent with it, you know, probably within a year you know 12 to 18 months you'll be in a better spot than you were, you know, three years into lifting, so you'll get it back.

Alex Feinberg: 37:28

It does take patience, um, and you know you will feel like you've regressed a little bit, but you know, number one, you're not trying to get hurt and so you need to challenge your body with the appropriate stimulus. That's challenging, but it doesn't put you at injury risk and so, like, yeah, we're not going to load the barbell with two or three plates on it when you haven't lifted in six, six months. Like, you're gonna have to be a little bit more intelligent with it, but you can scale it faster.

Philip Pape: 37:48

A hundred percent. So you also mentioned the journey you went through, uh, related to your leanness and your training, consistency and proper rest and recovery, and how you could eat pizza and tacos and burgers which I love because, like, we're all about a flexible diet that makes sense for you. So break that down for us. Right, like people are hearing that saying, well, I, you know, I'm not going to burn 3,300 calories right, there's the skepticism of how that happens, how you can maintain leanness. Is there variability from person to person? There is, but how much variability is there? Those kinds of, I'll say, skeptical, curious questions that will come up around that.

Alex Feinberg: 38:25

Well, there's definitely variability person to person, and I will tell you from personal experience there's nothing great about being able to eat 3,300 calories per day. In fact, if I could satisfy my hunger on 2,200 calories per day, that would be easier, it would be cheaper, it would put less stress on my gastrointestinal system. I don't need to eat eight slices of pizza for the sake of eating eight slices of pizza. I would much prefer to be satiated after four slices of pizza. It just so happens that my metabolism is running so fast that it requires eight slices of pizza for me to be full, and so, no matter where your resting metabolic rate is, if you're eating when you're not hungry, you're going to get fat, most likely. But if you're eating protein dominant real food when you're hungry until you are full, there's a very good chance that your caloric intake is matching what your caloric needs are.

Alex Feinberg: 39:16

If you're training at a high intensity Okay, so that's the key. If you're training at a high intensity and you're eating protein dominant real food only when you're hungry, stopping when you're full, whether your resting metabolic rate has you burning 3,300 calories on rest days or 2,300 calories on rest days, you can eat pizza, burgers, fried chicken and tacos, you can't necessarily eat them with the same macronutrient proportions that come when you buy them commercially made. So one asterisk is I would be the one making these foods for myself. I would generally be using seed oil-free ingredients, but, more importantly, I would be doubling or tripling the meat compared to what you would get in a commercial substitute, and I would stop eating it when I was full, not stop eating it when the meal was completed.

Alex Feinberg: 40:04

Okay. So if you have the discipline to say, hey, you know what, I've had half of a double cheeseburger I'm good for now. I'm going to finish the other half in three hours. When I'm hungry, cool Right. But if you have to eat all the food that's in front of you, then you know, no matter what your threshold is, whether it's 2,200, 3,200 or 4,200 calories a day you're going to have trouble stopping.

Philip Pape: 40:24

Got it? Yeah, no, really great points. It's funny you mentioned the double the protein, because if you see it in my sandwiches you almost lose the bread, right, because there's so much meat on there. And all those people are like, why don't you just not have the bread? It's all me, yeah. But uh, yeah, the fact that you have to be training at high intensity as a prerequisite is gold, because I get into arguments all the time with the YouTube haters about when I talk about eating carbs or carnivore maybe isn't serving you if you're training and they're like yeah, but you get fat eating carbs Like yeah, probably if you're not training right, if you're not training at all, let alone at a high intensity.

Philip Pape: 40:58

And then the making at home is really important. You mentioned dinner is your biggest meal. It would be my biggest meal if I made most of my dinners. My wife now does. She's become such a great cook that she tends to make these like fairly lean four or 500 calorie dinners. So I've sort of been trained to get my food earlier. But it really works out well because then I kind of can have some flexibility there. Anyway, side tangent, how often do you think people should in their diets incorporate quote-unquote. Real foods, whole foods, nutrient-dense foods versus how much allowance is there in a flexible diet for just utter indulgences? Hedonistic indulgences, let's call them I don't know.

Alex Feinberg: 41:34

I think 90 of the food at least that you eat should be. You can't answer that with a one-size-fits-all answer. Fair point, um, it's like how often should you drink? Well, if you're an alcoholic, never if you're in.

Alex Feinberg: 41:46

Some people are addicted to sugar. I've worked with people that are like I can't just eat a cup of ice cream, I have to eat like a half gallon. I'm like well, that's going to be a problem For me. I can eat a cup of ice cream and so you know I can eat ice. So, ideally, I don't like people eating junk food every day, because when it's an everyday type thing, you tend to do it, whether you crave it or whether you don't crave it. So I much prefer to space consumption around cravings, where you just ask yourself am I craving this or am I not?

Alex Feinberg: 42:23

Because the thing about processed food, the thing about sugar, is, the more you eat, the more you crave.

Alex Feinberg: 42:31

Sugar is, the more you eat, the more you crave.

Alex Feinberg: 42:32

So if you tell yourself and this is one reason why I don't like caloric based plans is because people are like, oh, I have 200 calories left, I can have this ice cream bar Like, okay, well, you know what that means is, even if you weren't craving that ice cream bar today and you ate it because you had 200 calories left, now tomorrow you have an ice cream craving and you may not have those 200 calories left, and so it's going to be that much harder for you to get through that diet that's based around a number that's not aligned with what your body's telling you, and so you know this is one of the big things that I tell people around the holidays is you're always going to be around sweets.

Alex Feinberg: 42:57

It's okay to have them, just make sure you're craving them. You stop eating them when you stop craving them. That, ultimately, is what is going to reduce your cumulative consumption the most, with the exception of people who are addicted to sugar. Those people are a little bit harder to coach because they really can't have any. The way you can't say like oh, I know you're in like the 12 step program so you can just have like one beer every three days. It doesn't work like that Shout out to Philippe.

Max: 43:21

I know Philippe for a long time. I know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength and that's why I choose him to be my coach. I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably. Philip helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations, while not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy, but now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently but, most importantly, I do it sustainably. If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a lean, strong body is what you're looking for, a free lead pay is your guy.

Philip Pape: 44:04

For sure. There's definitely those cases where something in the house is going to be a problem, no matter what, even if it's hidden away, and we have to pull out a different tool for that, like utter avoidance, like you mentioned. So you mentioned satiety and hunger signals a few times, including the craving, and I know some people are thinking well, how do I tap into that? How do I train myself to do that? Like there must be a habit formation period. What's your process for going from what most people eat, which is like 70% processed, ultra processed foods in America Like that is the number, it's insane to what you're talking about, which is 90% eating for your hunger, eating for your training goals? What's your process?

Alex Feinberg: 44:39

It's not hard to make burgers and pizza and tacos at home, like, it's just not right. So you can buy a bunch of of ground beef and you can grill it all, especially now it's the summer. You can grill five pounds of ground beef on the one Sunday and you can probably do it in 45 minutes, okay. So five pounds of ground beef, that's going to feed a family of four for a day, or you, yeah. Or one meat for a day, right. But like you, or and you can you can prep 12 pounds of ground beef Like a grill can hold a lot of meat, and so you need to realize that you can do it. You just need to start prepping food in bulk, and so ground beef is one of those foods that you can prep in bulk. You can buy pizzas, where there's nothing prohibiting you from buying pizza and then buying chicken and then slicing the chicken up and throwing the pizza in the oven and adding your own chicken to the pizza.

Max: 45:30

Pretty easy actually. And throwing the pizza in the oven and adding your own chicken to the pizza Pretty easy actually. Yeah, right, so it's like it's not hard.

Alex Feinberg: 45:34

The reason why you don't do it is because it's anxiety-inducing and it seems more challenging than pressing a couple buttons on your DoorDash app or going through a drive-through. But if you actually think about the challenge, it's not hard to buy chicken, slice it up and put the thing in the oven. It takes almost the same amount of time as like pressing a couple of buttons on DoorDash and waiting for the food to come to your door. So there's very simple adjustments that people can make to turn their food from something that's like highly processed to something that's like generally acceptable. They just need to get accustomed to change, and change is the hardest thing because change itself is anxiety inducing and we're wired to want to continue the habits that we've established over the last decade of our life. Um, no matter how urgently we need to change them, no matter what the upside or that change is, we want to stick to what makes us feel comfortable. Unfortunately, that's going to keep us in the same place or worse than where we are today.

Philip Pape: 46:26

Yeah, change a hundred percent. It's a roots in that necessity. So you met. I like your approach of right. We don't. We don't like restriction. We don't want to cut and avoid just just as our entry point, but instead make the things ourselves at home. I had a client who loved Chick-fil-A and this is a habit stacking example. Maybe we could talk about that. He loved his Chick-fil-A and I said you could just make exactly what they give you at home.

Philip Pape: 46:49

It's like super simple ingredients and guess what? You're going to save the walk or the drive to the place every day and you complain you don't have enough time to go for a walk. Well, there you go. Two birds in one stone, right. But meal prep and planning, it's just one of those things you said. It's changed. People think it's overwhelming in their brain. And then oven it takes me five minutes to prep and I can cook a whole starch or vegetable thing. It really is that, I agree. What about the habit stacking or something else that you talk about, which is like actions that have cascading or what are they called Knock-on effects or second order effects that make other things easier? Can you give us some good examples where people can really leverage their time that way, beyond what you already have?

Alex Feinberg: 47:31

Train for intensity, doing high interval sprints right. So measure your interval sprints. Do them better today than you did them last week. What that's going to do is it's not only going to increase your resting metabolic rate, and exponentially so. So the better you get at them, the more it's going to increase your resting metabolic rate. Very likely it's also going to curb your hunger. And so people say, oh, you want to build lean mass? Because lean mass increases your basal metabolic rate. It does. It doesn't actually increase your basal metabolic rate that much, otherwise powerlifters would be leaner than they are. But having a really high VO2 max, having really high cardiac output, absolutely increases your resting metabolic rate.

Alex Feinberg: 48:15

I challenge you to find a guy who can run a six-minute mile, who's fat and it's not because, oh well, if you carry that much extra body weight, you can't run a six-minute mile. No, if you look at guys who are college-level runners, they're running 430 miles and, generally speaking, every pound you add will add about a second to your mile time. So there are people who have the genetic capability of running sub five minute miles. They're not going to be able to run sub six minute miles and carry 60 pounds more fat. They could run a sub six minute mile if they wore a 60 pound vest on them, but the fat itself isn't the thing that's making it hard for them to run. Actually, being able to run at a fast pace makes it very, very difficult for your body itself to hold fat. That doesn't mean you need to start running, especially if you weigh over 200 pounds. That could be more damaging to you than what the reward is. But you need to be able to do measurable cardio at a very, very fast rate, and the downstream effects of that are going to be greater than probably any other exercise you can select in the gym.

Alex Feinberg: 49:27

The other thing is most people need to be working on what they ignore, right? Most guys? Oh, I work out all the time. Okay, so you do upper body all the gym. The other thing is you know most people need to be working on what they ignore, right? Most guys? Oh, I work out all the time. Oh, okay, so you do upper body all the time. How many days a week are you doing squats, like to parallel? How many days a week are you doing cardio? Oh, I'm not really good at that, okay, yeah, that's why you're doing.

Alex Feinberg: 49:41

You're doing a frat bro workout with a frat bro diet and you wonder why you look like a 35 year old frat bro. That's like you need to train like an athlete. Athletes train legs. Legs have 55% of your muscle mass in them. Legs are ultimately what's going to keep us healthy, keep us at lower risk for breaking hips as we get older, as we can stay healthy and mentally alert.

Alex Feinberg: 50:02

So we need to be training our lower bodies, we need to be training our cardiac capacity, our VO2 max, and the downstream effect of that is going to be enormous, because not only is it going to put us in a position to feel better and look better, you're going to start to realize that these mental frameworks, mental models, don't just apply to fitness. They apply to almost everywhere else in life. And once you start stacking wins, the momentum of those wins will be get other wins. It'll be easier for you to get promoted at work, easier for you to negotiate for more money with your next job, easier for you to get promoted at work, easier for you to negotiate for more money with your next job, easier for you to have better relationships with your wife or other women probably not both and you're going to see the downstream effects of just being a better winner.

Philip Pape: 50:44

Yeah. So those are your massive leverage points right there. And you're kind of inspiring me again because less than a couple months ago we had two quick in succession episodes about sprinting, one with Brad Kearns he's co-wrote Bored to Walk with Mark Sisson. Highly recommend checking that out. He advocates a lot of what we talk about, which is you got to lift, got to sprint. It actually is kind of against long distance running, mainly because most people can't do it right. We can talk about that, but when you talk about sprinting, are you talking about, say, a couple of days a week on flat ground for, you know, 10 minutes of high recovery, low work intervals, or this is more like HIIT style, tabata style type sprints.

Alex Feinberg: 51:21

It depends who you are Like. I don't actually I think sprints would be great for people to do. I am an ex-professional athlete. I haven't run a sprint in over 10 years, just because I don't think that I'm at the training level to where it it makes sense from a risk reward standpoint.

Alex Feinberg: 51:37

Right, um, interval sprints I can do, and my interval sprints might be at the same speed as someone else's sprint, although they're like kind of the same speed that, like elite marathon runners can just run for 26 miles in a row.

Alex Feinberg: 51:49

Um, so you know, my interval sprints are going to be like they're going to peak at like 12 to 13 miles an hour at a slight incline, and so that's going to be higher than most people's uh interval runs. But it's actually like, think about it, these Kenyan guys could run like 14 miles an hour for like three hours in a row, uh, without stopping. So you know, if you compare yourself to the wrong people, you'll get dejected and decide that it's not worth it to continue. But if you just compare yourself to the person you were a week ago, you'll find it invigorating to continue to push your upper limits, and so I don't think you need to be sprinting at a hundred percent max capacity, but I do think that you need to occasionally either be running or assault bike sprinting, especially if you're over 200 pounds at a capacity that is very challenging for you to do a couple of times a week.

Philip Pape: 52:38

Good, yeah, no, I love it. That's great, especially the because it's anabolic and also, you mentioned, it could increase your expenditure quite dramatically if you're not already doing it. It also aligns with saying work on what you ignore, because most of us are not doing that piece of it, even if we're now into lifting. And I think you mentioned the hunger signals as well. Again, that's a really big thing, because people doing the more chronic metronomic cardio tend to have more hunger versus the ones doing the style that you're talking about. So, all right, really good. I know we're short on time here and there's probably more we could cover, but what's something that I didn't ask that you think would be really meaningful to cover?

Alex Feinberg: 53:13

Okay.

Alex Feinberg: 53:13

So why you need to prioritize fitness over over work and why it's going to make sense for you and you're going to get paid back both ways, is not only due to the more energy that you have, but good looking people make more money, and so if you can make yourself into a high energy uh income magnet, money is going to be it's going to find you right A lot, and so the actual way that you're going to relate to the world is going to fundamentally change when you affirmatively decide that you're going to be a high performing, high physical output machine.

Alex Feinberg: 53:47

It takes a little bit of a mental switch, but you just look at this, look at the studies good looking people get paid more money to do the same job as bad-looking people.

Alex Feinberg: 53:56

It's just that is you need to realize that humans are primal and humans treat other humans who are in good shape better, and one of the keys that I learned when I was a student athlete at vanderbilt university is if you want to lose, find games where you have to play by the same rules as everybody else, and if you want to win, identify games where you can play by different sets of rules and run on an inside track relative to your competition. This was the same thing that I observed when I elevator pitched my way into Google with no experience in tech, just having the ability to speak well and look good in a custom tailored suit. It's helped me over and over in my career. Prioritizing fitness over getting promoted has allowed me to grow my income statement, grow my balance sheet, grow my professional network and ultimately succeed, not just financially but physically, and so most people need to be prioritizing their physical health in order to maximize their personal wealth.

Philip Pape: 54:55

And I think people shy away from talking about that. I'm glad you did because it's just reality. I mean, I know it from looking around me at folks I work with. I know it from my own transformation over the last few years and I'm still working on that. But, like the way people receive you, the confidence you have, uh, just the you know stature walking into a room, all those are important things. So, especially in business, especially with high performance, and, like you said, it's an inside track because how many people are doing it? It's it's like the elite you know 1% that are even doing that. So this has been great. A lot of really cool points here that you know we haven't quite covered on this show. So thank you for coming on. Where can people reach out to you, alex?

Alex Feinberg: 55:29

You find me on X. Find me on Instagram at Alex Feinberg one F, e, I, n, B E R G If you can't see it in the tagline, or go to Feinberg systemscom. You can see what I'm doing on the health side. Also, if you are a high powered executive and want to learn what I do for my high performing clients and send an inquiry note and we can get in touch that way, but my DMs are open you can find me on the major social media networks and we can chat more that way.

Philip Pape: 56:00

Great. We'll put those in the show notes. Xig Feinberg systemscom. Alex, thanks so much for your time. Really enjoyed discussing this with you. You're a great communicator. Really really interesting concepts that you know I definitely agree with and more people could benefit from. So thank you.

Alex Feinberg: 56:09

You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

Calories Are Not “Real” | Ep 339

Get your free Nutrition 101 guide at witsandweights.com/free to understand the fundamentals of nutrition without getting lost in the weeds, including how to set up energy balance, macronutrients, and calories in a way that actually makes sense

--

"Calories don't exist, they're just made-up numbers."

"You don't eat calories, you eat food."

These statements have gained traction on social media, usually from people trying to dismiss energy balance or suggest that tracking food is meaningless.

But this argument reveals a fundamental misunderstanding about measurement in science and engineering.

Let's dismantle the anti-calorie argument for good.

Learn why calories are actually one of our most precise tools for understanding energy and how, at the same time, you don't need to obsessively count every calorie to benefit from understanding energy balance, and acknowledging their importance doesn't mean ignoring food quality, hormones, or individual differences.

Main Takeaways:

• Calories are a precise unit of energy measurement, just like miles measure distance and money measures value

• The "calories aren't real" argument is a category error that could invalidate any scientific measurement

• Bomb calorimetry directly measures the chemical energy in food's molecular bonds

• Reductionism through measurement is how we understand and control complex systems

• Calories provide a foundational tool that works alongside other factors like food quality and hormones

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS - the app that uses calorie data to calculate your actual metabolism

Timestamps:

0:02 - The "calories aren't real" argument
4:06 - Measurement validity and category error
6:24 - What calories actually measure and why they're precise
7:42 - Useful approximation vs. perfect measurement
10:59 - 3 reasons people dismiss calories
14:18 - How we use calories for real nutrition results like fat loss

Why “Calories Aren’t Real” Is One of the Worst Nutrition Takes Online

“Calories don’t exist. They’re just numbers.” If you’ve been on social media lately, you’ve probably heard some version of this claim. It usually comes from someone trying to argue that calorie counting is pointless or that energy balance doesn’t matter. But here’s the thing: saying calories aren’t real is like saying miles don’t exist because you can’t hold one in your hand.

In this episode, I explain why calories are not only real, but also one of the most useful tools we have for understanding energy, metabolism, and body composition. If you’ve ever wondered whether it’s even worth tracking your food, this is your answer.

What Is a Calorie?

Let’s get something straight. A calorie is a unit of energy. Technically, it’s the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius. When we talk about food, we’re actually talking about kilocalories (thousands of those small units) because that’s the scale we deal with when fueling a human body.

We get those numbers using a method called bomb calorimetry. That means we literally burn food in a lab and measure how much energy it releases. So no, calories are not “made up.” They are a direct, measurable representation of the energy stored in food.

Measurement Doesn’t Mean Fake

The argument that calories aren’t real often rests on the idea that you don’t eat “calories,” you eat food. But by that logic, money isn’t real because you don’t eat it either.

It’s a measurement system. Miles, watts, dollars, and horsepower are all units that describe something we can’t physically touch but still rely on every single day. Calories fit in that same category.

You wouldn’t say GPS is useless because “miles are just a concept.” So why would you say calorie tracking is useless because you don’t eat numbers?

Why Calories Still Work, Even if They’re Not Perfect

Yes, metabolism is complex. Hormones, genetics, stress, training, and food quality all play a role. But complexity doesn’t mean measurement is useless. In fact, the more complex something is, the more you need reliable ways to track and measure what’s going on.

Your body isn’t a perfect machine, but it’s still remarkably efficient. When walking, you can convert energy into movement with about the same efficiency as a car engine. That’s not just a fun fact. It’s only possible to understand this because of calorie measurement.

You don’t need a lab to use this knowledge. Tracking food with an app, estimating portion sizes, or even just understanding your maintenance intake can give you a huge advantage. It’s not about perfection. It’s about having enough precision to make informed decisions.

The Real Reasons People Reject Calories

There are three big reasons people say calories don’t matter:

1. “The body is too complex.”
   True, but that’s exactly why we need good tools to simplify the picture. Calories are one of those tools.

2. “Tracking didn’t work for me.”
   This is often a problem of behavior or consistency, not a flaw in the measurement. If you got a speeding ticket, you wouldn’t say the speedometer is broken. You’d say you didn’t use it properly.

3. “It’s too reductionist.”
   Breaking things down into measurable parts is how we solve problems. Engineers use lift, drag, and thrust to build airplanes. We use calories, protein, and energy balance to understand body composition.

How to Use Calories Without Obsessing

Calories are not a belief system. They’re a tool. You can use them flexibly and effectively without becoming obsessed.

Here’s how:

• Use them to establish your baseline.
  Know your maintenance intake. This gives you a starting point to adjust up or down depending on your goals.

• Accept that you’ll never be perfect.
  If you can get within 20 to 30 percent accuracy, that’s good enough for most fat loss or muscle gain goals. Precision matters more than perfection.

• Look at other indicators too.
  Food quality, micronutrients, sleep, stress, and training all play a role. Calories are just one part of the bigger picture.

• Adjust based on results.
  Your calorie needs will change over time. Use data like weight trends, performance, and hunger to fine-tune your approach.

Final Thoughts

Saying calories aren’t real is a distraction. It’s either an attempt to sound clever or a way to avoid the hard work of understanding how your body actually works. Calories may be abstract, but they are based on hard science, and they remain one of the best tools we have for managing energy balance and achieving body composition goals.

You don’t need to track them forever. You don’t need to hit your targets with perfect precision. But if you understand what calories are, how they work, and how to use them, you will be far ahead of the people who ignore them entirely.

Measurement is not the enemy of complexity. It’s what makes complexity manageable.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

Calories don't exist, they're just made up numbers. You don't eat calories, you eat food. I've been hearing this argument more and more lately on social media, usually from people trying to dismiss energy balance or convince you that calorie counting is pointless and, by that same logic, miles don't exist when you're driving, watts don't exist when you're lifting and money doesn't exist when you're buying groceries. Today we're exploring why this argument reveals a misunderstanding of how measurement works in science and engineering. You'll discover why calories are actually one of the most precise tools we have for understanding energy and how this measurement has revolutionized everything from food production to space travel. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're tackling one of the most misunderstood concepts in nutrition and fitness. I'm not even sure why I have to address this, but I've noticed a trend on social media or in YouTube comments where people dismiss calories as not real or just abstract numbers, and it usually comes up when someone wants to argue against energy balance or suggest that tracking food is somehow meaningless. But as someone with an engineering background who loves data, who sees the power of how it helps people. This drives me absolutely nuts. It's like saying temperature isn't real because you can't hold a degree Fahrenheit in your hand, or horsepower doesn't exist because you can't see it under your car's hood. I mean, this is basic math, it's basic abstraction, but it's, I think, more fundamental than that and that's why I'm creating a whole episode about it. So today we're going to use this thinking, this database thinking, to break down exactly what calories are, why they're incredibly useful and why the calories aren't real argument misunderstands how measurement and science work and really the end goal here is so that you're better informed in explaining this and understand why I propose some of the methods I do that are extremely beneficial to people who are trying to do things like lose fat and build muscle Before we get into it. If you want to understand the fundamentals of nutrition without getting lost in the weeds, and simply want the steps for you to set up your nutrition plan, you can download my free Nutrition 101 guide. It just gives you the steps like energy balance, macronutrients and yes, calories and how to set them up in a way that makes sense. So grab your copy of the link in the show notes or go to wentsohatescom slash free.

Philip Pape: 2:48

All right, let's get into why calories are very real, very useful and why dismissing them is kind of insane. Okay, I'm gonna start by fairly representing this argument, because I've heard it from multiple sources now. Every time it comes up, I'm like well, what is going on? But I want to make sure I'm not straw manning anyone. And the basic argument goes something like this Calories are just a unit of measurement.

Philip Pape: 3:13

They're not a physical thing that you can touch or see. You don't eat calories, you eat food. Therefore, focusing on calories is missing the point, because food quality, hormones and metabolism are what really matter. Some variation of that right, pieces of that, all of it maybe it's a little different. Some variations I've heard include calories are just a made-up construct, or your body doesn't count calories in response to food, or calorie counting is reductionist thinking that ignores the complexity of human biology, and you get all different levels of, let's say, iq. In the way these statements are delivered, and some of them are very convincing sounding. Now there's a kernel of truth buried in there. There is yes, calories are a unit of measurement. Yes, you do eat food, you don't eat numbers. And yes, food quality matters beyond just caloric content. So let's get into why this just falls apart.

Philip Pape: 4:06

In engineering, we have a concept called measurement. Validity engineering and science right. Just because something is a measurement doesn't make it less real or less useful. In fact, measurements are often the only way we can understand and control complex systems, and I want to give you some examples that are really good parallels to the calorie argument.

Philip Pape: 4:27

Let's talk about miles. Miles are kilometers. Miles aren't real. Right? A mile is an arbitrary unit that we, as humans, created to measure distance. You can't hold a mile in your hand. Your car doesn't drive miles. It moves through space, yet somehow GPS works and companies like Amazon can deliver your package and we can navigate the world using this made up measurements Money. Money isn't real. It's one of the most unreal things on the planet. It is just numbers on a screen or pieces of paper with agreed upon what's called fiat value, based on a government saying that this is what it's worth. You don't eat money when you buy groceries. You exchange it for food, yet somehow the entire global economy functions on this abstract measurement system. And then, of course, we have horsepower, which is a calculated measurement based on work over time. Your engine in your car doesn't produce little horses, yet somehow engineers use horsepower to design everything from motorcycles to rockets. So you see the pattern here.

Philip Pape: 5:23

That the calories aren't real argument could be applied to literally any measurement in science or engineering. It's like saying temperature doesn't matter because you can't hold the degree I mentioned that earlier. Or blood pressure is meaningless because you can't see millimeters of mercury, and this is what we call a category error in logic. Just because something is a measurement doesn't make it less valid, less useful or less real in terms of its practical applications. And, by the way, if this all sounds obvious, I think it's important sometimes to step back and think of the fundamental philosophy by which humans categorize and describe things, or even what's called epistemology. It's like the science of knowing. Sometimes we even have to question why we created these things in the first place and how they are applicable. And as a guy who loves math, it comes a little bit more natural to me At least, the fascination with it is more natural, but I totally understand why it can be confusing in certain contexts. So let's talk about what calories actually measure and then why they're incredibly precise and useful.

Philip Pape: 6:24

For our context on wits and weights, a calorie is simply a unit of energy. Specifically, it's the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of one gram of water by one degree Celsius. So when we talk about food calories, we're actually talking about kilocalories, a thousand calories or lowercase c calories. So sometimes food labels will say K, c A L, that's the equivalent of capital C A L calories. That's, that's part of the confusion, right? So a kilocalorie is what we call a calorie on food labels. It's a thousand of those units of energy, and this measurement is so precise that we can use it to calculate everything from how much fuel a rocket needs to reach orbit to how much food a submarine crew needs for a six month deployment. We actually use calories to determine that, and the energy content in a food is measured using bomb collimetry, right? And that's a uh method where you literally burn food samples in a controlled environment I think it's in a vacuum and then you measure the heat that gets released, right? So it isn't an arbitrary number someone made up. It is a direct measurement of the chemical energy stored in the molecular bonds of the food.

Philip Pape: 7:42

Now you might say, okay, fine, philip, our bodies aren't calorimeters. We don't burn food the same way. And you're right, this is where what's called useful approximation comes in. All right, in engineering we use approximations all the time. We know they're not perfect, but they're accurate enough to be incredibly useful, and if we didn't have them we would just not be able to make anything right.

Philip Pape: 8:05

The calorie content of food, combined with how we understand human metabolism, gives us an approximation that is accurate enough to do lots of amazing things to predict weight changes with remarkable precision, to design nutrition programs, to calculate food requirements for military operations, to develop guidelines for public health Now I know that one maybe has an asterisk on it, given some people's skepticism for government and to help individuals achieve their physique goals. Now, I say it that way in that kind of list, because these are all actual things that we do relying on calories. So is it perfect? No, is it useful Absolutely? And again, that's just by knowing how many kilocalories are in food. Just having that metric, that data right, which we only have thanks to a lot of great people that have looked at foods, required foods on labels, studying them, put them into databases for us, that's how we can do that. That's how we know how many calories are in a medium-sized apple. And then here's where this gets really interesting, if it's not already to you and I didn't lose you I want to take you down a rabbit hole that most people don't think about.

Philip Pape: 9:11

The development of collimetry didn't just help us understand food. It was part of the development of thermodynamics, which literally powers everything today. The same principles we use to measure calories in food are what allowed engineers to develop steam engines, internal combustion engines, power plants and, yes, rockets and I don't know. I have a fascination with rockets in outer space, forgive me. So when we measure the calorie content of our food, we are tapping into the physics of thermodynamics. So that's another argument people make is like well, thermodynamics doesn't apply here. I'm not sure how anyone can back up that claim. I mean, this is the reason stars shine and the universe exists. So this is the beauty of measurement in science, because when you find a good measurement tool, it gives you an abstract ability to find connections and patterns that you didn't expect, and it usually leads to an explosion in science and technology. And I know you're like what does this have to do with a health fitness podcast? I'm not connected. All for you in a very important way shortly, so please keep listening.

Philip Pape: 10:13

Speaking of your body, your body is extremely efficient. A car engine is about 25% efficient at converting fuel energy in a mechanical work Of course, much more efficient now that we have electric cars, but that's not the point. Your body, when you're walking, can achieve about the same efficiency about 25% and that is actually pretty remarkable, given that it's a biological system and the calorie measurement is what allowed scientists to figure this out. Without the unit of energy, we couldn't compare our biological systems to mechanical systems, for example, which then allowed us to determine what kind of energy was coming in and out, and that allows us to determine metabolism. That allows us to determine metabolism. So it kind of boggles the mind that people would somehow dismiss something so embedded in our understanding of energy.

Philip Pape: 10:59

And why then are people still so eager to dismiss this, to dismiss calories as not real or not useful? And I think, in my experience at least, it comes down from one of three places. I narrowed it down to three. If you have another idea, let me know. The first one is the complexity argument, that human biology is too complex for simple calorie counting to tell you anything useful, right? Or our metabolism is so complex, our body is so complex. Now, I've called our bodies complex, but I've also not used that as a scapegoat for being able to measure things that our body does. It's two separate arguments. Yes, human biology is complex, so what it's like saying we shouldn't use math to build bridges because structural engineering is complex. Complexity doesn't invalidate the measurement, it just makes measurement even more important, especially when it's approximating the system. So that's the first one.

Philip Pape: 11:52

The second one is the personal experience argument that calorie counting didn't work for me or doesn't work for lots of people. Or look at all the people on the GLP-1s. Obviously calories didn't help them. And no, it's like saying speedometers don't work because you got a speeding ticket right. The measurement tool isn't. The problem is the way I'm going to put that. You know I'm not trying to gaslight anyone, but I can go down a litany of issues that are usually related to lifestyle behavior before we get to something like calories. And even when we get to calories, it's not the calories themselves, it's everything you're doing that affects how your body uses calories and your metabolism that results in, for example, not being able to be in a calorie deficit like you would have liked or would have thought right. So it's that personal experience, kind of straw man.

Philip Pape: 12:34

The third reason I think and this is the one that concerns me, I guess is the anti-reductionism argument. This is from a philosophical position that says that breaking complex systems down into measurable components is somehow wrong or limiting. But reductionism is how we understand and control complex systems right. When engineers design airplanes and I know a little bit about that, being in the aerospace world they reduce the complex problem of flight into measurable components like lift, drag, thrust, weight. Think about how we make computers. They are so complex. But we have to use reductionism and break things down into components. Even just have a craftsman building a really beautiful, sturdy piece of furniture has to use reductionism to break down that problem into its separate parts, to make it possible at all, as a human, to not let our minds explode.

Philip Pape: 13:32

And the same is true of nutrition and body composition. Yes, hormones matter. Yes, food quality matters. Yes, individual metabolism varies, but calories provide us with a foundational measurement that allows us to account for and work with all of these variables, almost like an entire what's called black box in the business, where you don't even have to understand or know what's going on inside, but you can measure the food coming in using calories and then the energy going out based on your body weight and voila, you actually know how many calories you're burning. It's incredible. So it's not either, or it's both, and that's really my point. So how do we apply this to nutrition in a way that acknowledges both the usefulness of calories and the complexity of human biology? And I kind of touched on it a couple times.

Philip Pape: 14:18

But the first thing to really glom onto here is calories are a tool. That's it. They're just a tool. They're not a religion. It's not like we believe in them. Like any tool, they're useful when you apply them correctly and they're misleading when they're misused, period. The second thing is we understand that precision doesn't require perfection. This is a really important concept. We don't need to count every single calorie to benefit from understanding energy balance. You can approximate, you can estimate, you can have very rough orders of magnitude, and the fact that you're tracking at all and within what we found to be is around 30% plus or minus, is a superior for meeting your goals and having control over your food and weight change than not tracking. That is extremely imprecise or, I'm sorry, imperfect, but it gives you enough precision. Precision meaning like you're within the range of where you need, such that that measurement helps you.

Philip Pape: 15:18

And then the third I guess practice here is that we use calories as part of a larger system of measurements. It's not the only thing we rely on. When I learned to fly a plane years ago, I got my pilot's license. We had six instruments that we relied on, and if anyone broke, we had five left to rely on right. There's redundancy. So just like we don't rely on one measurement there, we shouldn't rely on solely calories to understand nutrition, but we also shouldn't dismiss them.

Philip Pape: 15:48

So in practical terms, this means understanding that calories do provide extremely valuable information about energy balance, and we also consider factors like food quality, nutrient timing, your individual response, your lifestyle factors, your stress, your training, and the list goes on right. And we don't have to even make that list too complicated. Each one of them has its own highly useful approximation use. I just use useful twice. You know what I mean. So this is the approach I take with clients we use calories as a baseline measurement tool, but then we adjust based on real world results, based on your response, based on other markers, and it can give us information that hey, something else, a different thing we're measuring may need focus right now.

Philip Pape: 16:30

So I think when someone says calories aren't real or they're just an abstract, I think they're usually expressing a deeper frustration with the reductionist thinking that we have today, in this world that feels increasingly overwhelming, overly complex. They want simple answers, but then they're rejecting the tools that could actually provide clarity. Or maybe conversely, they're looking for something more complicated and thinking calories are too simplistic. I don't know. And I think what's beautiful about measurement of this type is it doesn't just simplify the complex systems by ignoring their complexity. It provides a common language, a common narrative that we can speak to each other in, and it doesn't even have to be the same like human language. Right, it's math which, effectively, is a universal language where we can understand and work with that complexity again, without our minds exploding. So every time you use calories as a tool to measure your food, you're participating in the same scientific tradition that goes all the way back to discovering antibiotics, developing space travel, creating the internet, using the same principles that allow engineers to build skyscrapers and doctors to save lives. Right, the measurement isn't the enemy of complexity, it is what makes complexity manageable.

Philip Pape: 17:48

All right, but I do want to give one final caveat to this episode, and that is to acknowledge that because, or acknowledging that calories are real and that they're useful doesn't mean you have to obsessively count every single one, all right, I mentioned this once already. But it doesn't mean you have to ignore food quality. It doesn't mean you ignore hormones or individual differences. It means you have access to a very powerful tool for understanding energy metabolism. That's all it means. Whether you choose to use it is up to you. But given how easy it is to use it today with databases, with apps, with apps like Macrofactor that I love to use because it takes that information, that exact information of calories in and weight out, you know weight change and says here is your metabolism, and it actually does that pretty darn accurately. I mean, we make decisions every day based on that that are helping people get the body and the physique and the health that they want.

Philip Pape: 18:39

Calories are real, they're measurable, they're useful and if you understand them just a little bit, it's going to make you better equipped to achieve whatever goals you're working toward. To make you better equipped to achieve whatever goals you're working toward, all right. If you want to learn how to use calories and other measurements as tools rather than just rules, grab my free nutrition one-on-one guide. I'll show you how to think about nutrition a little more objectively, like an engineer, systematically, evidence-based, setting up the numbers for yourself, and then you can use that to see where else the focus might need to be. You can get the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights. And remember just because something is a measurement doesn't make it less real. In fact, good measurements are what make reality manageable. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Who Cares How Strong You Are? | Ep 338

Join my free email list for exclusive mindset content or go to witsandweights.com/email

--

That crushing moment when you see someone warming up with what you consider your max lift. We've all been there. 

Your confidence evaporates, and suddenly you're questioning everything about your training, your genetics, and your worth as a lifter. But what if this entire mindset is exactly what's holding you back?

Learn why your current strength numbers don't define you and how the comparison trap is sabotaging your progress, motivation, and enjoyment in the gym.

Discover the psychology behind why we get caught up in strength comparisons and the simple mindset shift that will transform every workout into an opportunity for growth rather than a test of your worth.

Main Takeaways:

• The comparison trap shifts your focus from personal progress to arbitrary rankings that don't serve your goals

• Your current numbers are just a snapshot of where you are now, not your potential or worth as a lifter

• True strength is measured by consistency, effort, and continuous improvement within your own context

• Ego lifting, exercise avoidance, and lost joy in training are the hidden costs of number obsession

• Focus on the process of getting stronger rather than comparing absolute numbers to others

Timestamps:

0:01 - The gym confidence killer
3:29 - The comparison trap explained
5:35 - Why there's no universal "strong enough"
7:53 - Numbers matter as tools, not identity
10:28 - What actually defines you as a lifter
12:27 - The destructive costs of number obsession
14:15 - Redefining strength and progress
17:23 - 5 mentally healthier strategies to track progress
20:31 - The irony of strong but insecure lifters
22:55 - Applying this mindset beyond the gym

Why Your Lifting Numbers Don’t Matter (and What Actually Does)

If you’ve ever felt inadequate in the gym because someone else is squatting more than you, or you didn’t want to say your bench number out loud, you’re not alone. The truth is, we’ve all had moments where our own strength felt… pathetic. But here’s the problem with that thinking: it completely misses the point of why you train in the first place.

This episode breaks down the comparison trap, why your current numbers are irrelevant, and how to stop tying your self-worth to your squat, bench, or deadlift. And if you can shift this mindset, you’ll not only enjoy your training more but actually get stronger.

The Toxic Comparison Trap in the Gym

Most of us have been there: we see someone warming up with our PR and suddenly question our entire program, our genetics, and whether we even belong on the lifting platform. It’s easy to fall into the “I’m not strong enough” spiral. But strong compared to who?

The problem is that we’re trying to measure our worth against a completely arbitrary standard… an imaginary leaderboard built on social media clips, gym ego, and unrealistic expectations. This trap shifts your focus from progress to position, and once that happens, it’s game over for motivation.

Your Numbers Are Just a Snapshot

Strength isn’t a permanent badge. Your current 5RM or PR doesn’t define you. It’s just data, a moment in time shaped by everything from your training history and age to recovery and stress. Even if your numbers go down during a fat loss phase or after an injury, that snapshot doesn’t tell the full story.

Think of strength like compound interest. Add five pounds to your lift every few weeks and, in a year, you’re a different athlete. The real metric is progress. Are you stronger than you were last month? Last year? That’s what counts.

The Real Dangers of Chasing Numbers

When you define yourself by your numbers, some sneaky problems show up:

• Ego lifting: You load more weight than you can handle just to impress someone or hit a made-up benchmark. Form breaks down, risk of injury shoots up, and you might not even get stronger.

• Avoidance: You stop doing lifts where your numbers “suck,” even if they’re crucial to your overall development and injury prevention.

• Stuck in the wrong rep ranges: You obsess over 1RMs when what you need is hypertrophy, power, or skill work.

• Joyless training: Instead of enjoying movement, you treat every workout as a performance review. That kills long-term consistency.

Redefine Strength (and Reclaim Your Training)

Strength isn’t about hitting arbitrary numbers. It’s about continual improvement within your own context. Ask yourself:

• “Am I stronger than I was?”

• “Is my form better?”

• “Did I show up today?”

• “Have I been consistent?”

Every rep completed is a win. Every workout done despite a rough day is progress. Every week of consistency is a deposit into the bank of long-term health and physical autonomy.

And here’s a powerful reframe: the strongest people (on paper) are often the most insecure, because they’re still comparing themselves to someone else’s PR. That never ends. But the most successful lifters I’ve worked with? They know their journey is their own. Their numbers are just tools, not measures of identity.

Strategies to Break the Comparison Cycle

Here’s how to build strength without falling into the trap:

Track Progress Over Time

Use a log, app, or journal to look back at where you started. Notice the trajectory, not the absolute number. You might be surprised how far you've come in six months.

Celebrate Non-Scale, Non-Strength Wins

Improved technique, faster recovery, better mood, increased energy, fewer skipped workouts… these all matter just as much, if not more, than adding weight to the bar.

Accept That Progress Is Not Linear

You’ll have flat weeks, regressions, and unexpected setbacks. That’s normal. What matters is persistence and adjusting when needed.

Focus on Process Goals

Instead of “I want to squat 225,” focus on “I’ll squat twice a week with intent and intensity.” The numbers will follow if the process is in place.

Contextualize Your Strength

Your strength is specific. Being strong in one lift or sport doesn’t necessarily carry over to another. Define what strength means to you and how it serves your goals.

It’s You vs. You (and Always Has Been)

When you stop measuring yourself against everyone else and start focusing on who you were yesterday, everything changes. You’ll train smarter, get injured less, and actually enjoy the process. You’ll build the mindset and body that carry over into every area of your life.

Because let’s face it: your transformation isn’t about outlifting the guy next to you. It’s about becoming the kind of person who shows up, puts in the work, and doesn’t give up. The numbers are just along for the ride.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You walk into the gym feeling pretty good about yourself. You've been consistent for six months and your squat is finally at body weight. Then you see someone your age warming up with what you consider your max. Your confidence evaporates. You start second-guessing everything. Maybe you should just stick to the machines in the corner where nobody can see how weak you are. Sound familiar, or something like it. That moment when someone else's strength makes you question your own worth as a lifter here's what nobody tells you. That feeling is not only normal. It is completely missing the point of why you're there in the first place. So today we're going to break down why your current numbers are irrelevant to your success, how the comparison game is holding you back and how to think differently so that your training is more effective and enjoyable.

Philip Pape: 1:00

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach Philip Pape, and today we're going to tackle something that affects all of you. It affects every single person who picks up a barbell, and that is myself included the toxic relationship we have with our lifting numbers, with our strength. The title of this episode who Cares how Strong you Are has nothing to do with the fact that we don't care about strength. It's the fact that we don't care about your current strength. We care about where you've been and where you're going and what process you're following, whether the process of improvement is in place for you. And when we think about the psychology here, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's the voice in your head that whispers. You're weak when you see someone deadlifting twice your max or when you compare your numbers to a friend. Or maybe your friend picks on you a little bit for that in good spirit perhaps, but it might cut you at your core, depending on who you are. The embarrassment when someone asks how much you bench and your answer feels pathetic. Or you don't want to answer. The way that you avoid certain exercises because your numbers are quote unquote too low. But what if I told you this entire mindset is not helpful at all. It is preventing you from reaching your true potential. What if the secret, the magic pill to getting stronger and building more muscle and actually enjoying your training has nothing to do with where you currently stack up with your absolute numbers or against other people? So that's what we're going to look at today and I guarantee this episode is going to change how you think about this, because it's often the thing that is holding people back, not all the other information and the training programs and all of that.

Philip Pape: 2:44

Now, before we get into the topic, if you like this kind of mindset content, I'd love to hear from you and I'd love to send you more like it. To build not just physical strength but also the mental resilience To do that. Just join my email list. Go to witsandweightscom slash email. I'll send you exclusive content there that you're not going to find anywhere else. A lot of it is strategies for overcoming the mental barriers that are holding you back from doing your best, achieving your best. Physique health, confidence, all the things you want fat loss, the specifics, the generalities, the principles, the methods all of it. Go to whatsaweightscom slash email or click the link in the show notes and then, when you're on there that's another conduit to reach me you can reply by email. I'll always get back to you personally with a response.

Philip Pape: 3:29

All right, let's get into the show. Let's start with the elephant in the room or the gym. You're scrolling through social media, right? We all do it, and you see someone, your age, someone you compare yourself to benching more than you. Maybe they're benching 300, while you're working toward 200. Honestly, the numbers don't matter. In fact, that's part of the trap. Or you're in the gym and the person next to you is squatting what looks like your max for a warmup set, and so what happens in your brain?

Philip Pape: 3:58

If you're like most people, there is a cocktail of shame, of inadequacy, of self-doubt, and it just floods your system. It's a very human thing. You start questioning your training, your genetics and your worth as a lifter, your self-worth. So much of what holds us back is in what we think about ourselves as people, and we tie some of the things we do and some of the performance that we achieve as equivalent to our identity. And it just isn't. This is what I call the comparison trap. It's one of the most destructive forces out there, especially in the world of fitness, especially today with social media, and here's why it's so damaging. It shifts your focus from your own progress to your relative position in an imaginary hierarchy, a construct, the matrix, the abstract. It doesn't mean anything to you and yet you put yourself in that leaderboard and again, it's a very human thing to do. We love competition, we love comparison, but the problem with that hierarchy is that it's arbitrary.

Philip Pape: 5:10

Strong compared to what? Compared to who? A power lifter, a sedentary person who works in an office, Someone who's been training for 10 years or 20 years versus your one or two years? Someone with different genetics, different training history, different body proportions? The list goes on. And the truth is there is no universal standard for strong enough. I really don't like the strength standards.

Philip Pape: 5:35

I might've done one episode on them a long time ago and even then talked about how a lot of this is relative to your body weight and relative to your history and your capability and your process. There is only stronger than you were yesterday, than you were last month, than you were last year, and that is the only comparison that actually matters for your progress, for your health and even yes, for your well-being and happiness. Not how strong you are, but how strong you are compared to where you've been. And I can think of at least a dozen clients right now including some that have had check-ins this week who come to me convinced that they're weak in some way because their deadlift is only this number, you know, 185 or 225. And very often we'll look back at their history, whether it's with me, or even before they started being, we'll say well, what was it six months, six months ago? Well, you've added 90 pounds.

Philip Pape: 6:35

Your deadlift, that's a phenomenal achievement, but it's hard to see that because you're comparing yourself to other people. I have another client who her strength is going up very slowly, but her performance in her sport has gone up massively, to the point where she just won an elite competition, almost surprising herself, and it's because she had focused on her health and performance and strength. And that is an outcome of following the process. And even then she expressed concern for tying her self-worth to that achievement, which I agree. It's not something we want to do. We want to separate the two and understand that the performance is simply an indicator of the process we're following in the moment and once we shift to that progress, things can change. Your motivation will start to go up, because that's the thing that feeds back to telling us that the actions we're taking make sense, the behaviors we are doing, we are engaging in, are serving us, and guess what that does? That psychology feeds back in to our dedication to the craft, to improving our form, to avoiding ego lifting which can injure you, and then, ironically, this often leads to an increase in the numbers, in the strength, in the progress.

Philip Pape: 7:53

Now you might be thinking but Philip, don't numbers matter at all, right, isn't getting stronger? The whole point? Isn't wits and weights and your strength-centered, muscle-centered approach, all about strength? Well, that's a great question. Numbers absolutely matter. They matter as feedback, they matter as motivation, they matter as markers of progress, but they don't define your worth or your potential or your identity as a lifter. All right. So think about it this way your current squat number, your PR, your 5RM, whatever you're measuring, is simply a snapshot of where you are right now and it's given your training history, your genetics, your recoverability, your life circumstances. It's not a permanent label, it's not a ceiling, it's just data and, in fact, 20 years from now, your current squat number might be lower because of all those factors. And yet it's still going to be a snapshot of all those things and it's not good or bad. That has gone up or down. It's just an indicator of where things are.

Philip Pape: 8:56

And I've seen, for example, 50 year old women who start with their body weight training, maybe some light dumbbells, eventually incorporate barbells, machines and get stronger. I've seen 60-plus-year-old men who couldn't deadlift 95 pounds work up to pulling 300. And so their age or starting strength or what have you didn't predict their potential. Because there's plenty of older folks walking around this earth who will continue to be weak and unhealthy and unfit and have a poor lifespan and poor healthspan, and so it's hard. You can't predict your potential. But what can predict your potential? Guess what can predict it? Your consistency and your mindset. Like those two things. When I see someone who is committed to taking action and building consistency through the support structure we have, through habit formation, et cetera, and has a positive approach, that everything they do is a chance to learn and grow, no matter what.

Philip Pape: 9:59

No failure is a bad thing. Every failure is just data. That is a form of grit and persistence that will never fail you for the rest of your life. And I know this from personal experience because my numbers do not always go up. I've had injuries, I've had surgeries, I've had situations where I'm in a fat loss phase, I'm just not eating enough, and I've had situations where it was slightly unexplainable why my numbers didn't go up. There's usually a reason, and sometimes the number going up in and of itself isn't the be-all, end-all as well.

Philip Pape: 10:28

There's research on neuroplasticity. You've probably heard the term before. It's about our brains. It shows that our brains are very adaptable. They can improve for the rest of our lives, well into our 80s and 90s, and the same principle applies to strength and muscle. You know your current numbers are not your destiny. Now I'm not saying that you can perpetually push your PR all the way up forever. We know we can't do that, but nor do you necessarily want to do that or need to do that.

Philip Pape: 11:40

What actually defined you as a lifter is your consistency, your form, because that's a skill. It's a skill that you're getting better at your effort. Effort includes both making the attempt and making the attempt with intensity or with effort, right, that kind, so kind of different types of effort. And then, of course, your willingness to learn and adapt, having that growth mindset rather than a fixed mindset. And these are the qualities that are absolutely going to predict long-term success, no matter what, no matter where you happen to be today, regardless of the numbers. So when you're constantly worried about how your numbers are stacking up, there are some destructive, very destructive things that are happening that will slow your progress when you get caught up in this race.

Philip Pape: 12:27

The first one is ego lifting. You're going to load the bar with weight that you could barely handle, just to hit a certain number. You're going to compromise your form. You're going to increase your injury risk that you can barely handle. Just to hit a certain number. You're going to compromise your form. You're going to increase your injury risk. Don't do it. I see it all the time Someone loading up the bench with weight they can barely control. They get a half rep and if they don't have spotters or spotter arms, it could be a dangerous situation and they might even call that a PR. If they barely get it up and it's just, you know, a half-assed lift. There's no benefit in doing that whatsoever. The second thing is you're going to avoid exercises because you feel like the numbers are embarrassing. Right, you're going to skip the overhead press just because you can only press whatever weight 95 pounds and it's not moving up, so you just skip it. Well, that kind of exacerbates the problem, doesn't it Right? These might be what you need for balanced development, for injury prevention, for making progress.

Philip Pape: 13:16

The third destructive thing that happens here is you get stuck in, let's say, the wrong rep ranges or trying to do something over and over again. Right, you only want to test your one rep max, because that's the number everybody cares about, and you haven't pushed it up. And there you go, um, and you start to limit your variation. And then you're you start to backslide, cause you're not serving your goals. You don't even have a specific intentionality or purpose with your current training block that helps you focus on okay, I'm focused on volume or intensity, or you know, these rep ranges or this kind of cycling through my lifts or whatever. And then the last part, which maybe is the most important part, and the sad part is, you lose the joy in training. Every workout then becomes a test, a thing you have to do, instead of an opportunity to get better. Instead of celebrating the fact that you can move heavy weight through space, which is a blessing, something to be grateful for you're lamenting that it's not heavy enough.

Philip Pape: 14:15

So how do we fix all this? How do we maintain the motivation that the numbers can provide, but avoid the toxic comparison, the comparison game? And so I think it starts with redefining what strength even means. Right Now, we know the physical, the physics definition is production of force, right, but it's not about hitting arbitrary numbers. It's about continuous improvement within your own context of strength. That's why we tend to lose sight of that. We tend to focus too much on strength in and of itself rather than the improvement of, or building of, strength. So, instead of asking yourself how much can I lift, ask how much stronger am I getting? Instead of am I strong, ask yourself am I stronger than I was?

Philip Pape: 15:01

I'm a huge fan of reframe. Anybody who's worked with me or is in a physique university or you know, talk to me for any length of time knows I love to reframe, and a very powerful reframe is that every single rep you complete is a victory. Every workout or training session where you show up is an achievement. Every week that you consistently train and you didn't skip a session, you move things around to make it work is is really building something significant. It's a legacy for your body and for your strength.

Philip Pape: 15:30

So I want you to start thinking about strength in terms of compound interest. Albert Einstein allegedly called compound interest the eighth wonder of the world. Did you know that? It's a cool little thing? I don't know if it's true, but I heard it. Small, consistent additions, right, just like compound interest of your money, compound interest of your habits James Clear talked about it in Atomic Habits. They're going to compound over time into massive, massive gains.

Philip Pape: 15:56

Right, a five pound increase on the bar might seem like nothing in out of context, but if you do that consistently over months and over years, you are going to be amazed where you end up to the point where it's almost hard to put perspective on it and actually look back and say, oh my God, look what I did in just a month or three months or a year. I still do that. I still think wow. I have a lot that I want to accomplish. And sometimes I have to take a breath. Look at a before and after photo, look at my numbers from a year ago or two years ago. You know anything. Whatever.

Philip Pape: 16:26

It makes sense to compare yourself with yourself of the past, not with anyone else. You could be amazed, you could surprise yourself, and this is why I love working with beginners. Sometimes and I say sometimes a little bit sarcastically, because there's pros and cons right Beginners are not yet corrupted by this comparison culture. Usually, like when it comes to strength cause, they're just not in that world yet. They're excited about the small wins they celebrate. You know, adding five pounds to the squat, they see how much change they can, they can um induce in their body in a short period of time, and that excitement, that focus on personal progress. We need to maintain that, and I know it gets a little bit more challenging the more you grow. But the more you grow and the more capable you are, the more you realize the effort that it takes and you tend to step it up to the next level as you go forward. So if I were to give you some practical strategies for maintaining this, because we all love like specific tools, don't we?

Philip Pape: 17:23

The first thing I'm going to say is to track your progress. Don't just track where you're at, but track the improvement over time. You know your training log, your app, whatever, whether it's food training, whatever, biofeedback, anything you want to track, so that you can look at where you were three months ago or six months ago, a year ago, and that's your reference point for where you've come. Right, and maybe not every single metric has quote unquote gone up, and that's okay. But look at the totality of it. Look at the totality and don't discount factors like your relationships, your success at work, your mindset, like you could make very little strength gains, but have a much better mindset about the whole thing and be enjoying what you're doing. Isn't that a huge amount of progress right there mentally? So track your progress. The second thing is celebrate all the non-numerical victories as well, and I kind of just alluded to this, right, maybe you felt more skilled with your squat today, maybe your form was better, maybe you recovered faster between sets or feel a little more, you know, heart healthy, right, just just healthier in general, and these improvements are just as important as adding weight to the bar. They really are.

Philip Pape: 18:30

The third thing here is to understand progress is not linear. I have to keep hammering home this message. You're going to have bad days, you're going to have plateaus, you're going to have periods where your numbers go down due to a number of factors life stress, recovery, injury, intentionally because you're in a fat loss phase and you just can't maintain all that strength. It's okay. It doesn't mean you're getting weaker. It means you're human and it's part of the process. In fact, those moments might teach you more than any other.

Philip Pape: 19:01

Fourth, regarding the psychology here of progress is focusing on the process, not the outcome. I've said these things many times, but I can't say them enough, because humans are really bad at staying motivated toward a goal that's far away. If you currently bench 95 and you want to bench 225, that's very hard to maintain motivation to get there unless you have micro goals that include process-related goals. Meaning I'm going to bench twice a week in my program, like that is a micro goal that is process-oriented, right, the numbers are going to follow, but the process is the thing you control. You're optimizing the process for the outcome, but you're still optimizing and focusing on the process.

Philip Pape: 19:43

And then the last thing I have for you is that, remember, strength is specific, because being quote unquote strong at powerlifting doesn't necessarily make you strong at, you know, rock climbing or BJJ or, uh, you know, even just other movements in the gym. Yes, strength is a production of force. Yes, strength can be measured in many cases by numbers, but it also depends on what your strength goal is, if you're trying to develop strength or muscle, some combination, if you have a sport that you care about. In other words, there's lots of things that are valuable when we talk about strength. As much as I come from the starting strength world, where number on the bar is important, that's for novices, that's for beginners, that's an easy metric that you can control, that goes up, but then at some point you have to branch out.

Philip Pape: 20:31

So those are some techniques for the psychology of this, and I think something that's going to surprise you here is that some of the strongest people I know, some of the strongest people I know I can think of people that I don't know personally because they're big influencers, or I can think of people I do know personally, you know in terms of absolute numbers. They're also some of the most insecure about their lifting. Why? Well, guess what? They're doing the same thing. They've achieved impressive numbers, but then they're still comparing themselves to elite athletes and they're still feeling inadequate and they're still chasing external validation. Now, a little bit of this is okay. So I'm going to give everybody here, myself included, some permission to drive yourself, to drive yourself to improve and always want to be improving. Right, that's not really what I'm talking about.

Philip Pape: 21:16

There is a positive angle on that, but there's also a very negative one that we've addressed, related to self-worth and external validation. That, I think, is the dangerous part. On the flip side, I know people who are never going to bench 225, but their lives look completely different than they did before they started training. They've gone from being unable to carry groceries upstairs to deadlifting their body weight. They've built confidence. They've improved health markers we can't discount how huge that is from A1C to lipids, to blood pressure, to resting heart rate, all of it and they discovered what their bodies are capable of.

Philip Pape: 21:55

Right Now, who is winning there? Is it the person with the bigger numbers, or the person who's transformed their life and the positive psychology around it? And so the person with the bigger numbers, or the person who's transformed their life and the positive psychology around it? And so the most successful people and lifters that I work with or have had the pleasure to know. They've got one thing in common They've learned to find satisfaction in their own journey. They use numbers as tools. That's all they are. They're not measures of self-worth, they're just tools. They're data. They're motivated by getting better, not reaching a certain bigger number than someone else. Sure, they want their own numbers to go up, absolutely. We all have that inside of us and that can drive us. But stop comparing yourself to others, and you know. The cool thing Is that this thinking applies to everything your career, your relationships, your personal growth. Stop comparing your chapter one to someone else's chapter 20 and focus on your own progress and everything will change.

Philip Pape: 22:55

So the next time you're in the gym and that voice starts telling you you're not strong enough, remember that you are not competing with anyone but yourself. You're not trying to impress anyone but you. You're not trying to lift someone else's weight. You're trying to lift more than you could yesterday. That is it, and that's not just good advice for the gym, that's a philosophy for life that I believe will serve anyone quite well.

Philip Pape: 23:16

All right, if today's episode resonated with you. If you want more content that builds both physical and mental strength, join my email list at witsandweightscom. Slash email or click the link in the show notes. I love to write up and send out strategies in the email list to develop a mindset that will serve you not just in the gym but in every area of your life where you're working to improve, because your strength journey is again more than numbers on the bar. It's becoming the person who shows up, who persists and who finds joy in the process of getting better. All right, until next time. Keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember the only person you need to be stronger than is who you were yesterday. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Forget Motivation and Do THIS for Consistent Workouts and Fat Loss (Jenn Trepeck) | Ep 337

Join Physique University (free for 2 weeks) to get a custom nutrition and lifestyle plan with the simple steps to start engineering your ideal physique, plus weekly coaching to commit, take action, and build momentum! 

–

Why wait for motivation to get healthy? What if that’s exactly what’s keeping you stuck, and there’s a better way forward?

I’m joined by Jenn Trepeck, host of Salad with a Side of Fries and an optimal health coach who helps people build sustainable habits, without extremes. We break down why motivation is not the key to fitness success and how relying on it keeps us in a cycle of guilt, shame, and inconsistency. Instead, we talk about building momentum through simple, repeatable actions that fit into real life, even on your busiest days. Jenn also shares two practical movement routines anyone can start today.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:43 – Replace motivation with momentum
6:23 – What discipline really looks like
10:21 – Make fitness fun and doable
16:07 – How to start without overwhelm
20:04 – Consistency beats intensity
25:49 – Aligning expectations with your life
35:02 – When tracking helps more than hurts
54:27 – Your sustainable plan starts here
58:45 – Two-minute routine for busy days
1:01:17 – Affirmations that actually work

Episode resources:

• Podcast: Salad with a Side of Fries  

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jennifertrepeck

• Instagram: @jenntrepeck

• X: x.com/jenntrepeck

• Tiktok: @jenntrepeck

• Youtube: @jenntrepeck 

• “It’s Not What to Eat, It’s How to Eat” (free download)

Stop Waiting for Motivation and Start Building Momentum

If you've ever thought, "I just need to get motivated," you’re not alone. Whether it's hitting the gym, prepping meals, or just drinking more water, we’ve been conditioned to believe that motivation is the spark that lights the fire of success. But what if that belief is exactly what's keeping you stuck?

In this episode, we unpack the myth of motivation and what actually leads to long-term behavior change. You’ll learn why motivation is unreliable, how to shift your mindset toward momentum, and what simple, practical steps can create consistency, even on your busiest days.

Why Motivation Fails (and Keeps You Stuck)

Here’s the truth: motivation is fleeting. It might show up after watching a hype video or scrolling past a fitfluencer post, but it doesn’t stick. Then you feel guilty for not “feeling” motivated all the time, and the cycle repeats.

We’ve been taught to wait for motivation before we act. But that’s backwards. Motivation doesn’t come first. It comes after you start doing the thing. It’s a side effect of action, not a prerequisite for it.

The Real M Word: Momentum

So if motivation isn’t the driver, what is?

Momentum. It starts with discipline and commitment, especially on days you don’t feel like showing up. When you follow through on your plan anyway, you build momentum. That’s when the process starts to feel easier, and yes, that’s when motivation often shows up, after the fact.

The key shift is doing what you said you would do, especially when it's hard. That could mean:

• Prepping your gym bag the night before

• Setting a reminder to walk after lunch

• Eating dinner with your sneakers on so you’re already prepped for movement

These small acts create motion, and motion builds momentum.

Redefining Discipline and Commitment

Discipline isn’t punishment. It’s keeping a promise to yourself. It's showing up for a 10-minute walk, even when you'd rather crash on the couch. It’s choosing the lower-friction path so action feels possible, not overwhelming.

This is also where accountability comes in. Whether it’s a trainer, a friend, or a simple habit tracker, external accountability is often the hack that makes discipline easier. You’re not weak for needing support, you’re smart for using tools that keep you going.

Intensity vs. Consistency

If you’ve ever gone all-in on a plan, only to crash a week later, you’ve probably confused intensity with consistency. The two are not equal.

• Intense diets or workouts are hard to sustain

• Consistent, lower-effort actions are easier to maintain

• Progress comes from consistency over time, not extreme effort in short bursts

As Jenn said, intensity and consistency are inversely related. The more intense something is, the less consistent you're likely to be. When you focus on small, manageable behaviors, you build a foundation for results that actually last.

Create a System That Works on Your Worst Day

One of the most powerful takeaways from this episode is how to plan for real life, not the perfect day. If your plan only works when you’re motivated, well-rested, and have free time, it’s not a real plan.

Start with this question:

What can I realistically do on my busiest, most stressful day?

That’s your baseline.

For example:

• Walk for 10 minutes after dinner

• Do a 30-30-30 (30 reps each of 3 bodyweight movements) during a work break

• Add one vegetable to your plate at each meal

None of these require a gym membership, fancy equipment, or a surge of motivation. They just require a decision.

Start Small, Let It Evolve

Your “box” of possibilities might be small right now, and that’s okay. What matters is that you do something today, then a little more tomorrow. Over time, what once felt impossible becomes your new normal. That’s when you start identifying as someone who trains, eats intentionally, and makes progress.

That shift won’t happen from waiting for motivation. It happens from taking the next small step, consistently.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

I just need to get motivated to go to the gym, to improve my nutrition, to start walking more, etc. Sound familiar. If you just found the right inspiration, the perfect program or enough willpower, you'd finally stick to your fitness routine. But what if I told you that waiting for motivation is exactly what's keeping you stuck in cycles of starting and stopping, all or nothing thinking and blaming yourself when things don't work out. Today, my guest reveals why motivation is not just unreliable it's actually working against you. You'll discover the reason most people fail their goals, the powerful alternative to motivation that actually drives long-term success, and how to build systems that work with your life instead of against it, whether you feel motivated or not.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to challenge one of the most deeply held beliefs in the health and fitness world that you just need to get motivated to succeed. We hear it all the time. I'm just waiting to get motivated. I need motivation, and my guest today is Jen Trebek, an optimal health coach and host of the Salad with a Side of Fries podcast. Please go, give that a follow. Jen helps people build sustainable habits without extremes, and she's going to challenge everything you think you know about what it takes to live your healthiest, happiest life Today. You're going to learn why motivation is a myth, what really drives sustainable behavior change, and how to build momentum without relying on willpower or waiting for just the right time If you're feeling like something's wrong with you. When you're not motivated, stick around. Get a fresh jolt of energy, maybe some motivation though that's ironic to get you on the right path for you. Jen, welcome to the show.

Jenn Trepeck: 1:51

Thank you so much. First of all, I hope I live up to everything you just shared, but I love it.

Philip Pape: 1:56

I love the irony of like you're going to leave this motivated, but we're going to tell you why that's not the thing.

Philip Pape: 2:05

Which is great, because then people are like what does this all mean? Because we're going to define what motivation is and why people fail so frequently. And look, you and I have been through it. I'm sure both of our stories are just full of times when we said this and we hear it from listeners and clients. But let's just start at the beginning and examine what happens when someone is saying, as an excuse or as their reason, I just need to get motivated, right, whether it's nutrition, training, lifestyle, all the things.

Jenn Trepeck: 2:30

Yeah, I hear it all the time and sometimes what it sounds like is I know what to do, I'm just not doing it Right, or sometimes it's I'm waiting to want to do it, I'm supposed to want to do this before I.

Jenn Trepeck: 2:46

You know, whatever it is, get off the couch to go walk or lift or whatever. And it's such BS Like we've been taught that that comes first, and so we're all sitting around waiting for lightning to strike first, and so we're all sitting around waiting for lightning to strike, and it feels like lightning, you know, because we have this expectation that that's what's going to get us up off the couch. The truth is it's not, and that's why we feel like something's wrong with us, because we've been told that this is what we're supposed to feel right, that this is what we need to get going, and we don't feel that way and we think we're broken. So, fundamentally, you are not broken. There is nothing wrong with you. It's that we've been fed a line that motivation is what we need, and it's not. I call it a different M word. Okay, you're going to tease us on there You're going to deliver

Lisa: 3:51

the goods right now.

Jenn Trepeck: 3:52

Should we do it now?

Lisa: 3:52

Should we wait. No, we can do it now, Because you know to guys listening.

Philip Pape: 3:56

There's a lot more to come in this episode besides just this reveal.

Jenn Trepeck: 4:01

So the other M word is actually momentum, because in the beginning motivation actually looks like discipline. So in the beginning what we need is not motivation. What we need is discipline. What we need is a commitment. What we need is just to put the activity or the thing in our calendar and do it, even if we don't feel like doing it. We do it because that's what we committed to is just taking the action right. And so over time, the discipline of doing something consistently allows us to develop momentum where it becomes part of what we do and by doing it consistently we experience the benefit and we can connect the benefit to the action. That's when we get the motivation, not before. So what we're actually looking for to get going is not motivation but discipline and that discipline turning into momentum.

Philip Pape: 5:21

Beautiful Mic drop. This is great. This is great.

Jenn Trepeck: 5:25

We could end this now, but we have so much more we could.

Philip Pape: 5:27

We want to dive into each, because I know there's probably questions about what we mean by commitment, by discipline. What if you don't even have that first thing, et cetera. One of the first times I heard this concept was actually probably from Mike Matthews, legion Athletics. Poor guy, he ended his podcast because he's a millionaire now. These, you know, legion athletics. Or guy handed his podcast cause he's a millionaire now, but you know, uh, he, he talked about this a long time ago action leading to, uh, the result, leading to the momentum. And we talk about systems and closed feedback loops here as well.

Philip Pape: 5:53

So I love what you're saying, that you've got to have a catalyst, and we want to distinguish that catalyst from motivation, I think, because motivation, I think people get overwhelmed with thinking like, oh my God, I have to go to the gym three days a week. How am I going to keep getting motivated to do that? And it's just this thought that festers. It's kind of like when you procrastinate, right, and it literally takes you five minutes to clean out the garage. You know when you thought it. It's this huge thing. So, momentum, discipline, commitment let's focus on that word, discipline, I think it gets misused. Start there, maybe, define that.

Jenn Trepeck: 6:26

So when I use the word discipline, I mean I'm doing the things that I told myself I'm going to do. Way, because when that guilt and shame show up because we didn't do the things we said we were going to do right, by the way, that's when guilt and shame show up. We are more likely to avoid that when it is a commitment that we make to other people. It's why having the appointment with a trainer gets us there.

Jenn Trepeck: 7:08

Right, not just the money piece, but somebody else is involved in that dynamic and we don't want to let them down, or whatever. It is right, like we are more likely to keep the commitments that we make to other people, and so, when it's in this space of feeling challenged by motivation, this is the discipline to keep the commitments we make to ourselves. And then what that looks like is maybe having 10 minutes in the calendar, right. It looks like making sure that we set our clothes out the night before. It looks like eating dinner with our sneakers on, so that the walk after dinner is like well, I'm already halfway there, right. It looks like a lot of little things that are seemingly so small that are actually the big things yeah, I have to say, jen, you draw me in the way you speak.

Philip Pape: 8:53

I'm like I want to hear what's next.

Philip Pape: 8:55

A lot of, a lot of silence is good, it's good Cause I'm such a, I'm such a rambler, all right, and and, and I'm proud of it, I own it. But anyway, a few things stuck out of me there, because the simple things. As a coach, I almost feel inadequate, right, when I'm trying to give somebody such a simple piece of advice and I'm like, why hasn't this come across your mind up till now? The idea of putting a reminder in your phone app that says do this. Or, like you said, removing friction, removing resistance from going to the gym by prepping your gym bag the night before, right, yeah, just today or yesterday, someone in my Facebook group said should I even start lifting weights for fat loss? Okay, and immediately. I'll like cringe, I'm like it's a non-negotiable.

Philip Pape: 9:41

But hold on, let me see what she has to say. And she said you know, I'm a mom, I have young toddlers. I get up at seven and I'm go go, go to like 4 pm. You know, I don't even think I can get to the gym. And one of my questions to her was well, if this was your number one priority, how would you do it? Just to get her thinking out of the box, and then you can see the wheels turning of. Okay, it's a schedule issue, but then it's like still overwhelming because she's probably looking for motivation. How do I get that started?

Jenn Trepeck: 10:15

So that's kind of what you're hitting on is like exactly, you got to take the step, but you have to find a way to make it easy for yourself to do it Exactly. So what it looks like is maybe three minutes, right. What it looks like is 10 minutes here or there. You know, maybe what it looks like is actually not going to the gym. What it looks like is not lifting weights but lifting your kids. You know, like make it a game with them. I mean, like look, I got to lift you up over my head 12 times. You ready, here we go Right. Like bend down, squat, lift them. You know, extend overhead, like do that three times a day. They're going to have a great time and you're getting your movement in.

Jenn Trepeck: 10:53

I think part of it is like we have this idea of what it looks like in order for it to count in air quotes, to count, you know, have you heard? I'm sure you have. You know the like, sitting is the new smoking, of course, yeah, yeah, right. And they say that because it's like the thing we're doing that we don't realize is slowly killing us. And the thing that I say to everybody is because, you know, the human body wasn't designed to sit all day. Okay, well, you know controversial opinion here. I also think it's not human to sit all day and go berserk for an hour Like actually human movement looks like a little bit all the time. So guess what, mom, you are a step ahead, given that you are nonstop from seven to four. We just have to reframe how we're looking at some of these activities. Right, maybe, as you're putting away the groceries, you're doing bicep curls with the laundry detergent and we get it in.

Jenn Trepeck: 12:03

I have a thing that I teach people called DWDS. I don't know if you saw this nutrition nugget in my podcast. So, dwds, drink water, do squats. So inevitably, right, we're talking in health. We talk about hydration. By the way, hydration is about more than just water, but we drink, we want to drink water, right? Well, drinking more water means that we're going to have to go use the restroom more, right? Cool, when you go to the restroom, hold on to the sink and do 10 squats. So, drink more water, do squats. Over the course of the day, you're going to get probably a few squats in, right, like it doesn't have to be going to the gym committing all out, having this insane hour where you leave exhausted, unable to do other things, until you sort of replenish that energy.

Philip Pape: 12:57

So that brings up another point then, jen, which I know my listeners are thinking like what if my ultimate goal is to do something and there's a chasm from here to there, and you're kind of addressing that a little bit already Is motivation a matter of degrees? Is it a matter of the thing you want to do versus something someone else wants to do? I guess where I'm going with that is, if the person really truly wants to, let's say, start lifting weights full on, should we shortcut that process with what you're talking about in some way, like that's the devil's advocate in me.

Jenn Trepeck: 13:30

You can or you can say what I really want is this Am I willing to do what it takes to get that? Am I willing to do that Like? Can I find, as you said, in that you know Facebook group? What if this was your number one priority? The challenge that I have with people is that they think that something has to be their number one priority in order for it to happen at all.

Philip Pape: 13:57

Yes, that is true.

Jenn Trepeck: 13:58

And so the piece is to me is there an alignment between our capacity and what we say we want? Neither one is wrong. We just have to make sure that those things align. So we might want to compete in the bodybuilding competition, and to do that requires a level of commitment. It requires, you know, food choices and exercise choices and time that we may or may not be able to commit to to the degree that we would need to at this moment.

Jenn Trepeck: 14:44

So maybe it's not the right time for that. Or maybe it's about going to the other people around us to say, hey, this is something that I really want and I need your help. I'm going to the other people around us to say, hey, this is something that I really want and I need your help. I'm going to need you to watch the kids. I'm going to need you to help after school, Like, could you make dinner three nights a week so I can go do this Right? We have to then set up the scenario around us to allow for that, but it comes down to that alignment between sort of what we say we want and what we're willing to do. Does that make sense?

Philip Pape: 15:20

Makes sense, I'm giving you the space to dig in, because that's a great example where you're right. People might have aspirations that are pretty aggressive and a far cry from where they are today. Maybe they're realistic, maybe they're not. That's not for us to judge. We kind of have to go through that process. But that raises the question related to habit formation and behavior. You already alluded to building momentum as the main thing we're trying to do here. So when somebody is at the beginning of their journey and they know there's these you know they heard somebody on a podcast say there's these seven pillars or whatever of you gotta be training, you have to be walking, you have to be this, you have to be this and I see it all the time in emails are like I'm so stressed I don't know where to start, so I haven't made any progress. I'm like, well, what's one thing at least that's most important to you? Do you subscribe to that? Like build it up approach, like start from one thing it sounds like it sounds like you do but like walk us through.

Jenn Trepeck: 16:14

Yeah, yeah, go ahead. How might that look? Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of different ways to take this, and so my brain is going in 12 directions at once. So, yes, and again, it comes down to aligning our expectations with what we are willing and able to do.

Jenn Trepeck: 16:36

So start where you can Expect what you are able to do, rather than expecting perfection or expecting what we think is required to get the result right. Like I mean, even think about a baby learning to walk right. It's not like you would say to a baby like, sit there Until you can get up and walk and ride a bike, you're going to do nothing, don't move, don't sit there, right? When we put it in that context, it sounds hilarious, like that's so silly, but we expect that of ourselves as adults. Like we expect to go from zero to a thousand by standing up, and it's like, well, hold on a minute, right, it's just.

Jenn Trepeck: 17:28

I think for a lot of us, it's been a long time since we've been a beginner at something or since we've learned something in that way you know what I mean or like since we haven't known what to do, and it feels like, especially in my world of nutrition, like I always say, what I teach people is the nutrition education we're all supposed to know, but no one ever taught us, and so I think we have this expectation that we're supposed to know how to do all this, that we should just have this ability without ever learning it, and it's part of what sets us up and has us feeling really frustrated and therefore doing nothing, because we feel like we have to do everything that that is so true and I'm connecting with something personal in my life where, because you talk about being a beginner and we become so skilled in certain areas and it could give you a sense of either complacency or arrogance, or, like every new thing you're going to do, you need to jump in at some level of advancement that you're not ready for.

Philip Pape: 18:29

I started sprinting recently and I talk about it a lot. I had some guests on the show where we talked about, you know, the anabolic benefits of sprinting for lifters, blah, blah, blah, um, but it's not something I did regularly. You know, I used to do a lot of cardio back in the day that I gave up eventually and move more toward, uh, you know, higher recovery, uh type training. But, uh, in my mind I was like I'm just going to go out and be able to flat ground, sprint all out, and I didn't do that. But people are doing that and if you do it, uh, you'll find that you're probably not going to be able to walk in the next day, you're not going to be able to do your squats, you know, and you might hate it, right?

Philip Pape: 19:07

So there is this idea of it's not just all or nothing, it's also the feedback loop and expanding your comfort zone and the things you talked about connecting to the action. If you take an action that gives you this really painful outcome, that's also a recipe for giving up. That's kind of my point, right? Yeah, like with diets, you know people are like I'm going to go all in, I'm going to do a restrictive diet and just cut everything out, and then it's just as painful, miserable, suffering, whether it works or not for you, it doesn't matter, it's just like the process isn't enjoyable.

Jenn Trepeck: 19:36

A thousand percent. Well, so, like to me, what, as you're saying that, like what comes up to me is something I talk about is C versus I have consistency versus intensity. That's a good one, right? So when? Especially with diets, right, and I intentionally using the word diet, right, like I'm very particular about my word choices.

Philip Pape: 19:59

Diet, culture, diet yes, the diet yeah.

Jenn Trepeck: 20:02

Diet. Yeah, um, you know, the first three letters say die. So there's that, um. No, but, like when we do the things, cut out whole food groups, you know, commit to whatever it is right. Like that requires this insane level of intensity, right? Whether it's that super intense workout, right, like to your point, even on that workout, could you do that same workout the next day? Even on that workout? Could you do that same workout the next day? No, Because you hurt, right? But our expectation is that that's what's required and that's what we're supposed to do, but it's not so.

Jenn Trepeck: 20:52

Consistency and intensity are, like inversely correlated. So the more intense something is, the harder it is to be consistent with it. The more consistent we are with something, the less intense it's likely to be right. The less intense something is, the more likely we are to be consistent. And so really, what we know from every bit of research, from behavior change, science in fitness and nutrition and psychology and business and everything, is that consistency is what gets us progress. But the way we're taught, the way we're sold, fitness and nutrition in particular, is that intensity is what's required. So it's 100% intensity, 100% of the time is the only thing that's gonna get you the results, and I argue that that is patently wrong.

Philip Pape: 21:51

I wanna address that because that's really elegant. It's an elegant framework or model for this, because what comes to mind at least two things that have come up recently one on the diet, or I'll say on the nutrition or eating side, whatever you want to call it, because I'm not just talking about diets is fat loss right. We just did a rapid fat loss challenge in my community and it's a very, a very controlled protocol for people who are ready for it and most of them are not ready for it for two weeks.

Philip Pape: 22:20

For two weeks, right, exactly Right. And it's always this inverse relationship of okay, yeah, I know you have that target of weight loss, but let's reverse engineer like what makes this sustainable so you can stick with it, and what does that get you at the end of the day? And of course, the longevity of it is dependent on, like you said, how easy it is and how low the intensity is, but then the result is going to depend on the time of those two factors coming together, right? So from a fat loss perspective, it's, it's, a great example. The other one is someone was I was probably Lyle McDonald, cause he, he, he loves to just curse at all the other people in the industry. I love him.

Jenn Trepeck: 22:57

So many do yeah.

Philip Pape: 22:59

He was talking about training to failure and he's like look, if the general premise of training to failure is that you had to do that to grow muscle, nobody would have muscle, because nobody trains to failure, implying that, of course, training effectively over the long term to reduce injury, to increase recovery, of course training effectively over the long term to reduce injury, to increase recovery, is it going to be some level of submaximal? And that's really really important. It's almost more important than the training itself, the fact that you have recoverability and longevity behind it. That's what comes to mind for me, so good concept.

Jenn Trepeck: 23:26

Yeah, and I think it goes back to also what are your goals? Why are you doing this? What do you actually want to achieve? Because, also in these conversations, is that we get caught up in what everybody else is doing and what everybody says we're supposed to do, and then we sort of lose sight of. Wait a minute, I'm following the guidelines of somebody who wants to be and do things that actually have zero relevance to me. You know like I have clients who simply not so simply want to be able to get on the floor with their grandkids and play a game and stand up on their own right, to be 90 years old and not need help getting off the toilet, right, guess what. Off the toilet, right, guess what. You don't have to train for a fitness competition to achieve that.

Jenn Trepeck: 24:20

But if you listen to everybody coming at us, it'll make us think we do, you know like.

Jenn Trepeck: 24:27

So sometimes you know it's it's blocking out all the noise and saying you know? I sort of tell people it's like you got to have your Wonder Woman bangles on. You have to be able to hear what's coming at us or read the headline and say, based on everything I know, is that true? Is that true for me, how does that fit in with what I know I want and what I know works for me? And then, if you need to throw up the Wonder Woman bangles to deflect it? Because that consistency in what we know works for us is infinitely more powerful than the shiny object syndrome of something intense all the time or feeling like and this goes back to the thing of the all or nothing on off, good, bad, piece of like we're doing this thing that's super intense, expecting to do that 100% of the time, which is an inappropriate expectation, and then we can't maintain that intensity, we think something's wrong with us, we give up, we're like oh, I'm broken, I don't have the motivation, you know, taking us full circle.

Philip Pape: 25:47

Yeah, definitely taking us full circle, and the question of is it true? For me is so core to everything here, right, personalization. But also you talk about being a beginner. You talked about the compounding of your habits over time. Effectively, when you put it all together, it, what comes to me, is okay.

Philip Pape: 26:04

Where you're at right now, you've got this certain scope, this certain box that you can limit fears, and this is, in a positive sense, a box in that you don't have to worry about all these stuff outside of it for now, and the power from you taking that next step and that discipline and commitment is a very large step change in your output for a pretty small, accessible, you know, step, even if to the person next to you who's training for the bodybuilding competition, that's like far behind in their dust of their life, like it's nothing, it's not going to help them, but for you it's going to make a big difference. That's what comes to mind, which, that's the empowering piece of it. It's like you're not, you're not just limiting yourself here or holding yourself back. You're actually doing the thing that's going to lead to consistency and massive results over time.

Jenn Trepeck: 26:54

And the choices we're willing to make today are different than the choices we might be willing to make in a week or a month, or six months or a year. So, because of this is a great example, so it reminds me before my sister's wedding in 2011,. I've been doing this for a very long time. I started coaching in 2007, like before this was a thing you know and 2011 before my sister's wedding, I coached my family and in the beginning I don't know how it came up my sister and I grew up eating ketchup on just about everything.

Philip Pape: 27:27

I know the type right.

Jenn Trepeck: 27:29

I don't know why, but like and we were also like very healthy eaters, like we would eat steamed Brussels sprouts and diplomate ketchup and like we're so happy, you know. So when we first started, I don't know, it came up that I was using a ketchup that was made with not high fructose corn syrup, you know, and different in actual, like tomatoes and some other things, and my sister said to me if you're going to tell me that I can't have my ketchup, I'm going to punch you in the face, right? Not really, but kind of right. She was like I have no interest and I was like cool, keep your ketchup right. That's your non-negoti. Like, cool, keep your ketchup.

Philip Pape: 28:14

Right, that's your non-negotiable.

Jenn Trepeck: 28:16

Right, fine, whatever, keep your ketchup. A couple months later she goes what's that ketchup that you use? Right, and I gave her the brand and she bought it. She was like, oh, this is good, but the choices that we're willing to make today are different than the choices that we're willing to make today, are different than the choices that we're willing to make in a couple months.

Jenn Trepeck: 28:35

So if right now you want to keep your Heinz, go for it Like who cares, right, we can decide to make these things deal breakers or not and recognize to your point on the box, right, that box is going to look different. On the box right, that box is going to look different. What's outside of that box is going to look different after we've made some progress. So I see it all the time with people's food choices right, not just with ketchup or even the things that they're willing to try, because also your taste buds adjust right, your strength changes the moves that you're willing to try we start to feel more confident. We maybe have a guide or a trainer or someone who's going to help us do these other things and, all of a sudden, stuff that seemed completely foreign to us six months ago is now the thing we are most excited to do.

Philip Pape: 29:27

Yep, yeah, 100%. When you're ready, you're finally ready for it and it seems almost easy and a foregone conclusion when it finally happens I mean, that's often easy, it feels natural. I think when that happens, right, like okay, you're not forcing it, you're not forcing it. I want to pull a thread of something you mentioned earlier related to this whole motivation or momentum chain, when you mentioned a trainer and accountability to someone else, because the word accountability we haven't really addressed that either. And there's a lot of theory in the psychology literature about external versus internal motivation. There's also what is it Self? What is the theory? Is it self, not self-motivation, self-something, I forget what?

Philip Pape: 30:11

it is, but it involves like having the knowledge, having the efficacy and having the relatedness.

Jenn Trepeck: 30:16

Yeah, yeah, I know.

Philip Pape: 30:17

Right, you know what I'm talking about. So there's so many. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you, okay.

Jenn Trepeck: 30:21

So in which case?

Philip Pape: 30:22

oh, we haven't even gotten to that level of nerdiness. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it, cause you have a finance background right, like a kind of analytical background.

Jenn Trepeck: 30:31

Yeah, like business and marketing. Yeah, but Okay.

Philip Pape: 30:34

Okay. So what strikes me is like, even though we're not, we shouldn't wait for motivation. Is seeking out some sort of accountability or push, whether it's external or internal, still a valid step as far as the commitment and discipline goes?

Jenn Trepeck: 30:50

Yeah, To me that's the hack of discipline.

Philip Pape: 30:54

Cool Right, it's the hack of discipline to make discipline even easier.

Jenn Trepeck: 30:57

Yeah, right, how do we create discipline? Right, accountability is a tool for that. There's a piece of accountability right with that personal trainer. There's a piece of accountability that also happens with the gamification of you know ticking off how many days in a row, you know there's accountability of meeting the friend to go for the walk.

Jenn Trepeck: 31:24

I also think, like in my space on the nutrition side, a lot of people think accountability is the food police and I'm like sorry, no, you know, I am not the food police. And I'm like sorry, no, I am not the food police. What I am is the accountability that sometimes that voice in your mind, and more often than not I'm not the food police, I'm the cheerleader pointing out everything you did do, because your mind goes to everything you didn't do, right? So is the accountability checking off the days in your calendar? Is the accountability saying did I do something to move my body today, and that counts, whether it's the 10 squats when I went to pee or a super intense training session? Right, like, all of those things get to be part of you know, checking off that accountability and knowing yourself, I think is the key to the accountability that actually works, to the accountability that actually works, because if you feel like you're not going to keep that for yourself, right that we know we need the external, and then where is that line for you?

Jenn Trepeck: 32:46

Is it better that it's the friend you're meeting at the gym or the one that you're making social plans with, and part of those social plans is, you know, a walk or a fitness class or something? Or is it that I actually need the accountability where, if I don't report into you, I need a consequence? You know, like there's a self awareness piece in that, and the other side that I think is really important for everyone to recognize here is that the accountability just like the things that we're willing to do, tomorrow might be different than today the accountability that works for us today.

Philip Pape: 33:21

Can change.

Jenn Trepeck: 33:22

Exactly, and it doesn't mean we're broken. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with us. It means that we just need a bunch of different frameworks or frames or types of accountability.

Philip Pape: 33:37

Yeah, yeah, no, I love that because the method you know, I always talk about principles versus method and the principle here is a solid foundation and there are a thousand methods and, like you said, the method you enjoy or can use will change and also, I think, people's understanding of the method, uh, and how it changes. What comes to mind, for example, is people who hate quote, unquote hate tracking food, and it's because they've used my fitness file. And then they try this other app that's way easier and more efficient, and they're like, well, now I like tracking food. Okay, well, the problem wasn't the tracking, it was a method of little things like that, right. And then you talk about gamification. So then I was like, oh, that's a good trigger for me. I love gamification, um, and habit streaks and challenges and stuff, and that's super motivating and I don't see anything wrong with like coming back to that on a regular basis. If that's the thing, that's the thing that works for you.

Jenn Trepeck: 34:26

And sorry, like I think there's a piece of that to tie together between the consistency and the intensity, right? So when we're going to do something more intense that gamification or whatever that streak because in my head I don't know why, but in my head when we say gamification I'm thinking of streaks we just want to make sure that the streak that we're looking for matches the intensity. Streak that we're looking for matches the intensity. So if it's more intense, we're we want to plan on a shorter streak to the win, right, and then we can do another, less intense, for a longer period of time, right. Those pieces are also working together and fitting in.

Philip Pape: 35:10

A hundred percent and the streaks can be evolving into new streaks. As you go right, they become harder or higher, intense, and streaks, or whatever Is there. I think you already answered this question. You got ahead of this question already. I was going to ask if the tracking or the, the method of self-accountability can become obsessive, and but I think you got ahead of that by saying, like, you have to have the self-awareness of whether it's working for you and then evaluate it. Where I see people fall short sometimes is they give up too quickly on something and they don't give it enough time. Like what's your advice for really feeling out a method long enough so that it works?

Jenn Trepeck: 35:50

Yeah, I think there's a piece of this where my recommendation is actually work with someone, because so, especially in my space and especially with my clients, like I work with a lot of people who have a history of disordered behavior or eating disorders or, you know, like a lot of, especially as we think about food tracking, like a very tumultuous relationship with food and food tracking and all of these things, and part of it is a perspective shift. Part of it is what you were saying about. You know, what method are we using to track this information or to do the tracking? And one of the things that I see most often is that it wasn't tracking that made someone feel obsessive. It was actually the expectation to track and then doing it in their head, not on paper or not with a tool, doing it in their head, not on paper or not with a tool. When we start to feel obsessive, it's because we're trying to keep it all in our heads and so it becomes this constant running, you know, hamster wheel of expectation, disappointment.

Jenn Trepeck: 37:11

But it's running through every single time. What did I eat this morning? How much did I have? What am I eating for lunch? What did I eat for lunch? When am I eating next? How much am I having? What am I allowed to have? Did I eat this already? Is this a good thing? Is this a bad thing? Should I be eating this now Because I'm going to bed?

Jenn Trepeck: 37:27

The more we're trying to keep in our head, the more overwhelming it becomes. Keep in our head the more overwhelming it becomes, the more obsessive we feel like we are when it gets out of your head and onto paper. Right, I see it over and over with clients. When they stop tracking in their head and they put it on a piece of paper, they go whoa, I have a lot of mental capacity.

Jenn Trepeck: 37:54

Imagine all of the things that you could do in this world with all of that mental capacity freed up, where, when you are thinking about dinner, you could look at your phone or a piece of paper and go great, this is what I'm having in seven seconds, rather than running that whole rigmarole through every time. You're going to drink water or have a tea, or do I want a snack? Do I need a snack. Am I right? Like that is what's exhausting when it comes to understanding this piece of resistance that we have to something it's sort of worth digging into. Well, what is it that's actually frustrating? What is it that we actually don't want? What are we trying to avoid? And how do we actually get to a place where we're avoiding that? Because I think sometimes we associate it with something that may be, you know, kind of misaligned.

Philip Pape: 38:59

Yeah, you make great points the mental clarity and the bandwidth, and especially those of us who are perfectionists, and there's like six types of perfectionism, where, yeah, we talked about procrastination to it, like it's all linked.

Philip Pape: 39:08

You know when you're trying to get to sleep and you can't get to sleep because those thoughts are running through your head, and you just get up and write it down and boom, you get the mental capacity. That's a great example for my podcast and you probably do the same, like I have a notes app. Every time I have an idea, which is about seven times a day, a thousand percent.

Philip Pape: 39:23

I'll write it down, but then I'll be able to go through and churn through and like delete, consolidate you know, no, that's next day and but it helps take tons of stress off. So the fact that you're saying tracking can relieve you of stress and give you clarity and give you awareness and help you build momentum and help you close the loop. It's what I say to Jen. I just need people to come on here.

Jenn Trepeck: 39:46

I know we need to hear things. What's the set like? Seven times, seven different ways from seven different people. I also think it's at seven different times because what we're willing to hear, what we actually hear, right Like and especially I say it to people all the time I have people who will do my course multiple times, because when everything is new, what you hear is maybe 50% of what's there the next time, when it's not totally new, you hear something that you didn't even hear it all the first time. It's why listening to these episodes, even over and over, actually becomes tremendously helpful.

Philip Pape: 40:24

So do that, guys, right, do that guys. Go back, listen to all 300-something episodes again.

Jenn Trepeck: 40:29

Right On different days because, by the way, the apps count the same day as the same download.

Philip Pape: 40:34

Oh yeah, Help the algorithm please Mix it up just every day. Pick 10 to one. So I was thinking of the matrix and memento and some of the best movies, and where you need to watch them at least two or three times to get the message that's so good. So, all right, You're definitely hitting on my like analytical brain here. Um, it's funny, I just. I just took a communication style assessment. You know those personality?

Jenn Trepeck: 40:57

assessments, which one of those, I'll do.

Philip Pape: 40:59

This one was through Toastmasters, so it was actually part of a project because I was developing a speech related to it. What's interesting is how that evolves over time. And, uh, the two strengths of mine today, as of right now, are analytical and supportive. Which supportive is interesting? It comes from the coaching side, but I get that energy from you as well, in that you want to help people and people can help themselves too with this if they're so empowered to do so and want to have the discipline and get the accountability and do it.

Jenn Trepeck: 41:27

And the reason why is because that's what changed everything for me, right? I believe the difference between knowing what to do and actually doing it is understanding why, right, it's not living by the shoulds. Right, everybody, stop shooting the bed, right, like, cause, I did every diet under the sun, right, I lived in that world on that rollercoaster of gaining and losing, and I would feel at times like I would just breathe and gain weight and I was like I do not understand, right? Yes, and then I remember this so, so vividly. So I used to work in hedge funds, which is what you were talking about before a finance background. So I used to work in hedge funds.

Jenn Trepeck: 42:14

In one of our offices there was a communal kitchen on the floor of a bunch of hedge funds and Monday mornings there was a thing of fruit and a platter of mini muffins and croissants and pastry, all the things. And I could go into the kitchen on a Monday morning and get water once and ignore the plate of pastries. The second time it was a struggle. And the third time I'm walking in and going what is wrong with me? That this croissant has a voice and it is screaming my name and I can't deal Like what is wrong with me. This is insane. It's making me feel literally insane.

Jenn Trepeck: 43:03

You know, and I remember it, there was one day I walked in the kitchen and I was like, oh I get why this is appealing to me right now.

Jenn Trepeck: 43:12

So what I actually need to do is go eat the breakfast that I brought and then see how I feel about the croissant and then, if I want the croissant, eat the croissant, but at least from then I'm eating it after having something that has nutrition and stabilizes my blood sugar. Lo and behold, I go back and eat the breakfast that I brought and the croissant no longer has a voice and I can walk in and out of the kitchen 20 times and it doesn't matter, right? So for me, learning this nutrition stuff, how our body processes food, what food does to our body biochemically all the things that are happening made every food decision go from being emotional of why do I suck, why can't I just walk in the kitchen and walk out without having an internal debate about a croissant to an intellectual one of like oh I get why that's appealing. This is what I got to do Onward. The difference between knowing what to do and actually doing it is understanding why.

Philip Pape: 44:14

Because if what we said was what every diet before told me of you shouldn't eat a croissant now the only thing I want is the stupid croissant yeah, yeah, you hit on a lot of good points again, because the why, when, when you first started talking about why, I did go to where you went with nutrition science, but then I also thought closing the loop with your own experimentation and feedback and giving it a shot and doing the thing also helps you understand why for you like, why is this working for you? It also helps dispel tons of mythology in the industry when you realize that doing something everyone else says you shouldn't and it doesn't cause the sky to fall is very powerful. Right, it's very, very powerful, and I know we fight that all the time because, unfortunately, there's so much misinformation that people are just afraid to try the thing because they feel like they're killing themselves. You know, I'm going to eat seed oils or this or that or whatever. They don't even know. So mindfulness and intention and understanding why is important when.

Philip Pape: 45:10

How about, though, the counter to to that? Is there a time when why doesn't matter that much because it could hold you back, and what I mean by that is some people perfectionists again wait to find out every bit of the why before they take action. Where does that problem come into this?

Jenn Trepeck: 45:30

It's interesting because I don't necessarily experience that piece of the perfectionism with my clients. Okay, what I tend to see more is the perfectionism of now expecting themselves to only ever eat the low glycemic impact things and then feeling like, you know, on off, good bad failure at the birthday party when they ended up eating the birthday cake, you know. So I think If you're in a place of I'm doing nothing till I learn everything, then are you actually learning what's being presented?

Philip Pape: 46:08

Good point.

Jenn Trepeck: 46:09

Yeah Right, good point. Yeah Right, like, maybe we're just sort of blocking out because if we're fully understanding what's being shared, it likely would lead to right, some sort of action to experience it and see if, even as an experiment of saying, is that the case for me? Right, like, is that what I have? You know what I experience when I do X, y or Z.

Philip Pape: 46:39

For sure, for sure.

Lisa: 46:41

Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, philip Pate. With his coaching I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple Longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful app called Macro Factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and he really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me.

Philip Pape: 47:26

So thank you. Yeah, that's that's kind of what I was getting at, because it's hard to explain the avatar that I'm thinking of, but it's more of the person who just will not take the action until they understand the why out of fear. So when we think of the psychological things going on here, when someone does finally take action, then they start strong. The other problem we have is people quote unquote fall off track. Now, I know there's a whole aspect to that of like the fact that you have a track and the fact that we're thinking all or nothing and is there ever such a thing as failure and all that fun stuff? So and then they blame themselves, because then they lack willpower, they can't stick to it. So even if they've done the things you've done, there are people that will still struggle because of life, et cetera. How does someone deal with that?

Jenn Trepeck: 48:10

So I think one of the things I say all the time is that if your plan doesn't allow for life to happen, it's not the plan for life. So are you following a plan that, for you, is better to be something we do for a finite period of time, not the plan to be followed ad infinitum, right? So the plan for life has to allow for life. So if your plan doesn't allow for birthdays or vacation or enjoying these things, then we got to take a step back and reassess that plan. Right? If you're living in that on off, right, I'm doing this, I'm doing nothing. The issue is with the track. You're on, not you.

Philip Pape: 49:08

Somebody really smart recently, in the last 40 minutes, talked about something called consistency versus intensity, and again it rears its I'll say ugly but beautiful head. Um, that is exactly what you're saying. It's like it, the plant is too intense if it's not allowing for those things, unless it's for two weeks and life is boring during those two weeks, right, and then that's fine, right?

Jenn Trepeck: 49:28

And we recognize that that's the choice that we're making, that's the trade-off and we're cool with that. We've made that choice intentionally, and you know part of what I'm hearing in your question too. With this thing of like you know falling off, a couple of things come up in my mind. One is what we talked about before of not just the consistency versus intensity, but this piece of our expectations of ourselves. Is this really what works for me? Is this really what works for me? It's not that I'm broken, it's that, you know, whatever it was right, the design is flawed, not you, yes, but it also brings up for me a bit of emotional eating and situations or things that come up that derail us that naturally right. Like things happen, and especially in my world, with food, you know, like I don't think, contrary to many, I don't think emotional eating. Is this thing to be completely avoided, a thousand percent Like? Name me a culture in the world that doesn't convene over food, that doesn't create community around food, that doesn't grieve over food. There is something really special about some of these things that have now been demonized and so it's just about saying what was my plan, Recognize where we're at and aligning those expectations too. So it's not falling off if what we do is what we told ourselves we were going to do. We do is what we told ourselves we were going to do, so different from sort of the emotional eating thing.

Jenn Trepeck: 51:29

I had a client who was going on vacation and she was like we're going to my brother's. I'm not in charge of the food, I'm not. You know, we're at his house, not a hotel. There isn't a gym, the activities, I don't even know what he has planned for us, you know. And the conversation that we had was well, how do you want to feel on your way home, you know? And she was like I want to feel proud of myself and I'm okay with a little bit of a weight gain. I just I want to feel like I made some healthy choices. I was like awesome, Okay, what needs to exist for you to be on the way home feeling proud of yourself and that you made some healthy choices? Okay, well, that turned into a protein-packed breakfast. That turned into a couple walks while they were there, Not trying to transplant everything she does at home, in the environment that is set up for everything she needs, you know, transplanted to her brothers, where everything was out of her control, you know.

Jenn Trepeck: 52:46

So it's our expectations of ourselves and the commitment that we make to ourselves. If we align the fact that what we're looking to do is X and we meet that, it is infinitely more powerful than expecting ourselves to do something and then not doing that. Yes, yes, that's what creates that. I'm off track. I need to get back on track Some of my least favorite words. Can we stop trying to get back and just keep going?

Philip Pape: 53:20

There you go, just keep going. Yeah, the expectations are huge. Um, as you were saying that, I was just like I made a little list of like three examples of my own clients. Cause, just to relate to this one client, he's going to be at a camp for like three months with the crappiest food you can imagine.

Philip Pape: 53:36

Right Like and I just mean, you know, it's all designed for kids who have very limited palates. You know sugary yogurt and chicken nuggets and all that, and. But he's like, look, that's the reality of the situation. So we're going to be intentional, we're going to come up with a plan and the expectations are going to be a little different than at home. But it's three months so we got to come up with something. So that's that's one that comes to mind. Another is a client who he wanted to enjoy that barbecue and he's like I planned ahead of time to gorge myself and enjoy the barbecue.

Philip Pape: 54:07

You do, you bro, enjoy every second of it.

Philip Pape: 54:09

Yeah, and his normal, his normal calorie intake is like 2,500, 3,000. And he ate like 7,000 calories. And I said, how'd that feel? And what happened afterward? And he's like, yeah, I looked back and I did what I said I was going to do and then the next day I got back to it and that's like a good mental frame on those kinds of things.

Philip Pape: 54:25

And then we, you and I were talking about like peri-postmenopausal women, and that's one of the strongest demographics, I would say, where the expectations really have to be understood upfront, right, because we know, with hormones and metabolism and everything that you may not be able to be on the same timeline for fat loss, for example, as someone else. And it's like that's almost the key, the magic key to unlock success for the first time in a long time, because every other time you've wanted to get that quick result or what everyone else is doing, and for you, like you said, it may take six months of just very slow. I don't want to say slow and steady. I mean that's fine, slow and steady, but you know very modest, reasonable, consistency. And then you look back and like, cool, I did that. So, yeah, thank you for you know, highlighting all these things, cause these are super important points that people can take away.

Philip Pape: 55:13

Let's get into practical Jen. Then like, if someone's thinking I really want to go start working out and we alluded to these things, but just walk them through Step one today they're like it's Friday when I'm listening to this, when this episode comes out, which in their mind they're thinking I'm going to start Monday. That's cool. What do they need to do next?

Jenn Trepeck: 55:31

Create the plan right. What is your plan? Starting Monday, doing what? And create the plan designed for your busiest, most hectic, stressful day, not the ideal day that exists twice a year, full stop. That's it right.

Jenn Trepeck: 55:59

I'll add to that there's some really interesting research around specifically exercise-related behavior and in behavior change. There are sort of two schools of thought, right. There's the one side that says do it every single day, no matter what the other school of thought says. Figure out the pattern that you can be consistent with and do that. Well. Really interesting research when it comes to movement specifically. What we see is that we actually need to do it every single day in order to then eventually be able to maintain a pattern that is not daily. So if the objective is to implement an exercise habit, then we want to create the plan for our busiest, most hectic, most stressful day and figure out what's the thing that we can do every single day and start with that.

Jenn Trepeck: 57:10

If you want my recommendation, it's a 10-minute walk after you eat. Start with one meal a day. When that happens, maybe you add a second meal a day. Maybe you decide to do that with a couple of wrist weights one day. Don't go crazy. Maybe you got time to make it 15 minutes. Maybe one day you actually have time to do it twice a day, but the plan is the 10 minutes. So some days we can exceed it, right, but the plan, the objective is for that most hectic, most stressful, busiest day and then build from there.

Philip Pape: 57:57

I love it. So have a template the worst day, because it's not going to get any worse than that. And then I like how you talked about every day. It makes me think this is a lifestyle, this is a you know you're trying to be, you're trying to establish a new identity as an athlete, as a mobile person. Honestly, that is what many people are missing. Is just any movement at all right. You're on your desk all day. You're not walking. So even if you do want to lift weights and you want to walk and you want to sprint and all that, start with what Jen's saying do something every day and then you can ramp up from there. All right, I'll give you one more.

Philip Pape: 58:27

Okay.

Jenn Trepeck: 58:28

And then there was something else you said that made me think of something, and now it went out of my head, so hopefully it'll come back.

Philip Pape: 58:32

But so another one.

Jenn Trepeck: 58:34

I know story of my life If you can't do the 10 minute walk or that feels like a lot you to call 30-30-30. Three different exercises, 30 repetitions of each. You're going to choose them based on your level of mobility. So I have some clients who do this in a chair with like 30 arm circles, 30 side bends, 30 leg lifts. I have other clients where we're doing 30 squats, 30 pushups, 30 crunches. I created a whole bunch of different variations of this and tested them. They all took less than two minutes. You didn't have to change your clothes. You don't get sweaty, it doesn't matter. I don't know about you, but I am never more productive than in the two minutes before the next Zoom meeting or the five minutes before I need to leave the house.

Jenn Trepeck: 59:23

We all have those moments of like what can I get done in the three minutes? Right, and we're looking around, this is what you're going to do A 30, 30, 30. It takes less than two minutes. Just do it and see what happens. The blood flow alone is going to make you feel instantly more energized. And then you never know. But if 10 minutes feels like a lot, start with a 30, 30, 30.

Philip Pape: 59:47

Love it, exercise snacks. Those are, those are big.

Jenn Trepeck: 59:50

Exactly.

Philip Pape: 59:51

All right, I could go on. I know we're we're short on time here. There's so much I didn't get to that I would love to ask you. Maybe we can connect again in the future, but for now, is there anything we didn't cover that you're like?

Jenn Trepeck: 1:00:07

no, I had to cover this one, this one thing that we didn't cover related. Well, now I'm sitting here going. What was the thing that just popped into my head? Oh man, I'm going to think of it as soon as we press, you know. End recording.

Philip Pape: 1:00:12

It's okay. It's okay. There's so. There's so much. It's funny with humans. I always think there's like it's the tip of the iceberg, where people hear and see from us and the icebergs in our brain that they'll just never get access to All right. So, jen, this has been fantastic. Absolutely love the conversation. I think people will practically be able to take from this the ability to build momentum, not to get motivated, not to wait for the right time, not to be perfect or do more than the expectations allow them to do. Just start where you're at and build momentum. Take the commitment, the discipline and turn it into momentum. I want people to be able to find you, jen. Obviously, we've got the podcast Salad with a Side of Fries. We'll link that in the show notes.

Jenn Trepeck: 1:00:52

Anywhere else, All social media. I am at Jen Trebek, j-e-n-n-t-r-e-p-e-c-k, and website is asaladwithasideoffriescom. I will tell you, hearing from you is my absolute most favorite thing, so please send a message. Oh, I know what I wanted to say. Now let's do it Because on my website there is I have a download for you called it's not what to eat, it's how to eat that you can download there, but there's another one that I sometimes offer. Maybe I'll send this to you to put a link in the episode notes.

Jenn Trepeck: 1:01:25

That's my bullseye of change. It's a framework for behavior change Awesome. And the piece of this is what you said about this identity. We're trying to develop this new identity, and that sort of reminded me of affirmations or things that we say right, we're trying.

Jenn Trepeck: 1:01:40

And the piece of this that is so critical is that you know, if you're like you were saying, like we want to become this athlete, right, if saying to yourself I am an athlete creates that other voice, that's like no, you're not right. We need a different affirmation, the trick to making sure that this works right. So our subconscious mind doesn't know the difference between truism and falsehood. It's going to believe whatever we tell it, but it has to bypass the conscious mind. So if your conscious mind says, no, you're not, that affirmation will not program the subconscious mind so I am becoming athletic might be more helpful in the moment, till you start to feel like an athlete. And then it becomes I'm an athlete right, it might be.

Jenn Trepeck: 1:02:40

I make healthy choices. Well, that might feel like a lot right. Maybe the affirmation is I make healthy choices. Well, that might feel like a lot right. Maybe the affirmation is I make healthier choices. I eat a vegetable every time I eat. Right, find the thing that actually rings true and use that and that can evolve also. But that's key to developing this new identity where, if we're trying to tell ourselves something that we're really not believing, it's not going to happen.

Philip Pape: 1:03:06

You got to believe yourself and believe in yourself and give yourself the right affirmation. So great advice. Thank you, jen. No, not, don't apologize. Seriously, that's good. I hope people stuck around to hear that because otherwise they missed out Fire at the end for everybody.

Jenn Trepeck: 1:03:21

That's right.

Philip Pape: 1:03:21

That's right, fire emoji. So we'll throw those all in the show notes. And again, jen, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on. Wits and Weights.

Jenn Trepeck: 1:03:29

Likewise. Thank you so much.

The REAL Triggers of Chronic Inflammation (Hint: It's Not Specific Foods Like Seed Oils) | Ep 336

Join our free Facebook community at facebook.com/groups/witsandweights

--

Tired of the inflammation fear-mongering? Stop obsessing over "toxic" foods and learn what actually drives chronic inflammation in your body.

While fitness influencers point fingers at gluten, seed oils, and nightshades, the real culprits are hiding in plain sight... and they're not what you think.

This episode dismantles the myths surrounding inflammation and reveals the true drivers of this misunderstood health concern. While we're scrutinizing ingredient labels and avoiding specific foods, the actual causes of chronic inflammation are hiding in plain sight... and they have little to do with what's on your plate.

Discover how to engineer an anti-inflammatory lifestyle using systems thinking instead of food perfectionism.

Main Takeaways:

• Acute vs. chronic inflammation are completely different systems requiring different solutions

• The #1 driver of inflammation isn't foods

• One organ functions as your body's natural anti-inflammatory pharmacy

• Specific lifestyle factors matter more than eliminating specific foods

• Western dietary patterns drive inflammation, not individual ingredients

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS - Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

Timestamps:

0:00 - The inflammation myth
2:16 - Acute vs. chronic inflammation
3:39 - The real drivers of inflammation
5:31 - Why specific foods don't matter
8:42 - Engineering an anti-inflammatory lifestyle
12:13 - The anti-inflammatory organ you can develop
14:47 - Systems approach to inflammation

The Real Causes of Chronic Inflammation (and What Actually Reduces It)

“Cut out gluten.” “Ditch seed oils.” “Sugar is toxic.” If you’ve spent any time on health and fitness social media, you’ve seen these fear-based headlines. Influencers make inflammation sound like a mysterious food sensitivity waiting to explode, and they’ll sell you any restrictive diet or supplement to fix it. But here’s the problem: they’re solving the wrong problem.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we go beyond the noise and ask a better question: what actually causes chronic inflammation, and how do we reduce it for good? The answer isn’t about chasing foods. It’s about understanding systems.

Let’s break it down.

What Is Inflammation, Really?

To understand inflammation, you need to separate acute from chronic.

Acute inflammation is your body’s immediate immune response. Think swelling after a cut or the soreness from strength training. It’s short-term, adaptive, and essential for healing.

Chronic inflammation is something else entirely. This is low-grade, systemic, and long-lasting. It’s your immune system stuck in overdrive, often without a clear threat. Over time, it’s linked to nearly every major chronic disease: heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimer’s, and more.

The fitness industry often treats them as the same, leading people to avoid harmless or beneficial foods in the name of “inflammation” without addressing the deeper issue.

The Top 5 Real Drivers of Inflammation

Instead of pointing fingers at sugar or canola oil, we need to look at the major contributors to chronic inflammation. Most of them have nothing to do with food.

1. Visceral Fat (Abdominal Fat)

Your belly fat isn’t inert. It’s an active endocrine organ that secretes inflammatory cytokines like interleukin-6, TNF-alpha, and CRP. These messengers keep your immune system in a heightened state, promoting inflammation around the clock.

If you want one target that will dramatically lower inflammation, it’s body composition. Losing fat, especially visceral fat, can lower CRP and other markers even without changing your diet.

2. Physical Inactivity

When you’re sedentary, your immune system can become dysregulated. Daily movement and resistance training release myokines, anti-inflammatory messengers that help reduce systemic inflammation.

Muscle is more than just for looks or strength. It is your body’s built-in anti-inflammatory tool. The more you train it, the more resilient your system becomes.

3. Poor Sleep and Chronic Stress

Sleep deprivation and unmanaged stress raise cortisol and suppress recovery. Over time, this increases systemic inflammation. Even if your diet is “clean,” high stress and poor sleep will keep your inflammation levels high.

You cannot out-diet a high-stress, low-sleep lifestyle.

4. Environmental Toxins

We often forget how impactful this category can be. Smoking is the most obvious culprit, but air pollution, secondhand smoke, and long-term chemical exposure also contribute. While we can’t control everything in our environment, we can make simple changes that add up.

Minimize what you can control, like not smoking, reducing alcohol, and being aware of the products you use in your home.

5. Dietary Patterns (Not Specific Foods)

Here’s the truth: no single food causes inflammation in healthy people.

What matters is the overall pattern, not the seed oils, not the gluten, not the occasional dessert. A Western dietary pattern, high in ultra-processed foods, refined carbs, and low in fiber, contributes to poor gut health, blood sugar swings, oxidative stress, and eventually weight gain. But the mechanism is overconsumption and metabolic dysfunction, not the food item itself.

Seed oils, for example, improve health outcomes when replacing saturated fats, according to meta-analyses. Gluten and oxalates don’t cause inflammation unless you’re sensitive to them. The problem isn’t specific foods. It’s when your diet and lifestyle as a whole stop supporting health.

Engineering an Anti-Inflammatory Lifestyle

So if we move away from restriction, what should we do instead? Think of it as a systems upgrade. These are five levers to engineer a less inflammatory state.

1. Improve Body Composition

You don’t need to get shredded. Even moderate fat loss improves inflammation. Build and maintain muscle while reducing visceral fat, and your inflammatory markers will improve.

2. Strength Train and Move Daily

Lift weights at least two or three times a week and stay active with walking and movement breaks throughout the day. Every muscle contraction produces myokines that reduce inflammation and improve immune function.

3. Sleep and Recover Intentionally

Recovery is not a luxury. It is the foundation. Prioritize seven to nine hours of sleep, manage your stress through physical outlets or mindfulness, and avoid overtraining.

4. Optimize Your Dietary Pattern

Forget food perfectionism. Prioritize:

• Whole foods

• Plenty of fiber

• Protein at every meal

• Diverse nutrient intake

• Flexible dieting that supports satiety and performance

This gives your gut the inputs it needs while keeping inflammation at bay, without moralizing or obsessing over every ingredient.

5. Minimize Environmental Exposure

Don’t stress over every chemical, but do focus on the big ones:

• Don’t smoke

• Limit alcohol

• Reduce unnecessary exposure to household toxins when possible

These are systemic contributors, not isolated triggers.

The Muscle and Inflammation Connection

Your muscle tissue is the most underappreciated tool in the fight against inflammation. It’s your built-in pharmacy. Every time you lift weights, your muscles release anti-inflammatory compounds that interact with your immune system, fat tissue, liver, and brain.

And this works even when controlling for body weight. In other words, people with more muscle and more activity have less inflammation regardless of how much they weigh.

Building muscle is not just for aesthetics. It is a biochemical strategy to reduce disease risk and stay healthy.

Inflammation Is a Systems Problem

Inflammation is not caused by one food. It is not about sugar or oils or carbs. It is the cumulative result of multiple lifestyle decisions that create a chronically inflamed environment in your body.

The fix is not another elimination diet. It is strength training, sleep, muscle, movement, recovery, and a sustainable way of eating that supports your goals.

You do not need to chase symptoms or cut out foods. You need to engineer the system. The same system that builds your physique will also reduce your inflammation.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Cut out gluten, eliminate sugar, stop eating those toxic seed oils. You hear it all the time from fitness influencers who are obsessing over specific foods that they call inflammatory. But while we are scrutinizing these ingredient labels, the actual drivers of chronic inflammation are hiding elsewhere. They are not exotic foods or mysterious toxins. They're lifestyle factors that most people are ignoring. So today we're going to break down what is inflammation, why your anti-inflammatory diet might not solve the problem, what are the lifestyle factors that are more important than food choices when it comes to inflammation, and how to engineer your approach to address the root causes instead of chasing symptoms.

Philip Pape: 0:58

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're engineering our way through one of the most misunderstood topics in health and fitness, and that is inflammation, the dreaded I-word, the misused I-word. The fitness industry has turned inflammation into a boogeyman, convincing people they have to eliminate foods, they have to buy expensive supplements, follow restrictive protocols. But when we apply a little bit of systems thinking to inflammation and look at the science, we discover that the conventional approach is solving the wrong problem entirely. It's not going to get you anywhere when it comes to inflammation. Now, before we get into it, if this episode opens your eyes to how inflammation really works, I just want you to do me a favor and text it to someone who's been struggling with some of these topics and the confusion and the misinformation in the industry, who's curious about inflammation, inflammatory issues or anti-inflammatory foods. Just text this show to a friend. That's all I'm going to ask for today, and with that let's get into it and start by defining the system. Talk about what inflammation actually is. We can't solve a problem until we understand what it is and what you're dealing with, and inflammation is highly misunderstood.

Philip Pape: 2:16

There's really two processes going on here. There's acute inflammation, and that's your body's immediate response system. Think of it as like your biological emergency response. You cut your finger, you twist your ankle, you get an infection and boom, you get pain, heat, redness, swelling, right. This is a very well understood aspect of acute inflammation. You could even get acute inflammation from positive practices like strength training, where you have an immediate response to the stimulus you place on your muscles. Training where you have an immediate response to the stimulus you place on your muscles and the inflammation process causes them to adapt. This is all normal, this is essential, this is a good thing.

Philip Pape: 2:51

But then we have chronic, low-grade inflammation, which is the one that we are actually concerned about, and this is like having your emergency system stuck in the on position right the fight or flight. The high alert system is just stuck on for months or even years. It is a silent killer, it is systemic. It is linked to cardiovascular disease, diabetes, alzheimer's, metabolic dysfunction, you name it. And so here's where our engineering mindset comes in, in that these are two completely different systems with different inputs, different processes, different solutions, and most people are trying to solve chronic inflammation using an acute inflammation style logic, and that's where we fail in the process, especially when it comes to foods. You know fear-mongering over specific foods, which is why I'm making this episode.

Philip Pape: 3:39

So let's go back and step back a bit and look at the root cause. When most people think about inflammation, they immediately jump to foods, especially when you hear about things like seed oils. They're inflammatory. But the data actually doesn't support this. It tells us a very different story, and that is that the number one driver of chronic inflammation is visceral fat, your belly fat is you know. It's not just sitting there looking sad. It is an endocrine organ. It pumps out inflammatory cytokines and we're going to get into, we're going to explain these a lot. This is part of the blood markers of inflammation. You can have Interleukin-6, tnf-alpha and C-reactive protein. You've probably heard of the last one. It gets discussed a lot CRP, c-reactive protein. These are inflammatory markers that can be measured in the bloodstream. Invisceral fat is actually the number one driver of those byproducts, those inflammatory cytokines.

Philip Pape: 4:35

So that's the first one. The second one is physical inactivity, sedentary behavior. It doesn't just make you weak and lazy and unfit and causes you to eat more and do all the other things we don't want to do. It also creates a pro-inflammatory state, because when you're not moving your immune system gets, we'll say, confused. It starts attacking your own tissues. You're not living like a human should live. You're essentially wasting your life being sedentary. Meanwhile, exercise, training, movement produces myokines that actively reduce inflammation, so that movement and training is anti-inflammatory. The third driver is chronic stress and poor sleep. When you're chronically stressed, when you're sleep deprived right, and sometimes they go hand in hand, we know this affects our cortisol your immune system tends to overreact and then inflammation becomes your default state. You're in a more inflammatory situation.

Philip Pape: 5:31

The fourth driver is environmental toxins. So, as much as I don't really talk about these too often, I've had some guests on that talk about them. Um, smoking is the big one. We don't think of that as environmental toxic, but it really is, and I'm glad I don't have to walk around in clouds of secondhand smoke Like I did in the eighties when they had, you know, smoking sections in the restaurant, smoking sections even in an airplane at one point. Uh, but also things like air pollution. You know the chemicals, the things that we're exposed to in a lot of our products. You know some we're discovering, some we're maybe not aware of, and any other exposure that triggers inflammatory cascades. These are real, but especially something like smoking and air pollution. Now notice what's missing from that list Specific foods, specific foods are missing, and this is where we have to separate the signal from the noise, because, yes, diet affects inflammation, but not the way you think.

Philip Pape: 6:21

It's the dietary patterns, not the individual foods, that drive inflammation. A Western dietary pattern which is high in ultra-processed foods, high in sugar, high in refined carbs, high in trans fats, is going to create inflammation through multiple pathways. It's not specific foods, it's the whole pattern. It disrupts your gut microbiome, you have large swings in blood sugar, you've got more oxidative stress. You've got all the conditions that contribute to obesity, mainly through over consumption. Right, it has nothing to do with seed oils? Okay, it's overconsumption, it's the gut health, right it's. You know, the misuse of insulin through blood sugar spikes, because you're not acting, you're not lifting weights. It all compounds together because, in fact, somebody who has a much improved lifestyle can, I'll say, get away with a somewhat poor dietary pattern versus someone who doesn't, for that very reason.

Philip Pape: 7:17

Because it's not the individual foods, it's a dietary pattern as well as a lifestyle. So if you remove individual foods, it's not going to impact systemic inflammation, unless you have a specific intolerance to those foods. Right, the whole nightshades, oxalates, gluten-free for everyone approach. There's no evidence that those reduce inflammation in healthy people. Same thing with seed oils. In fact.

Philip Pape: 7:39

We know adding in seed oils or replacing saturated fats with seed oils improves health outcomes. It is definitively demonstrated in the research. There's no argument about that and regardless of the processing, people talk about shelf rancidity. No, none of that is actually borne out by the evidence as being a concern based on the outcomes. In fact, there's a study that found a pro-inflammatory lifestyle predicted poor fitness. But diet alone didn't significantly affect the outcomes. The lifestyle factors are doing the heavy lifting, and so inflammation isn't caused by eating a specific food. It's caused by the cumulative effect of multiple lifestyle factors that create a pro-inflammatory environment in your body. So if we know this, the good thing is it gives us a little more freedom and flexibility than we might have thought a more flexible diet, for example. But we could also engineer an anti-inflammatory lifestyle for ourselves. We can optimize the system rather than these individual components that don't actually have an impact.

Philip Pape: 8:42

So first we should address the biggest lever, which is body composition, when I mentioned, visceral fat is the largest driver of chronic inflammation. We wanna lose our visceral fat, and that removes the primary inflammatory factor in your body. It doesn't mean you have to get shredded. That's not what it means. Even just modest fat loss will significantly reduce inflammatory markers, and this is why you know fat loss, weight loss, whatever you want to call it, simply having a lower body weight in and of itself actually solves a lot of the health markers and health issues that people have. Not everything, and it's not about scale weight. It's more about body composition, right, more about losing fat, holding on and building muscle and losing fat. So that's the biggest lever right there, which is everything we talk about on this show for the most part.

Philip Pape: 9:23

Uh, the second thing is implementing regular movement, not just training, but also moving throughout the day, walking but also not sitting for long stretches to keep your muscles producing the anti-inflammatory myokines Myokines, you know, I forgot how to pronounce these and strength training is very powerful here because muscle tissue actively fights inflammation. So just having muscle is highly anti-inflammatory. The third thing is you're going to have to improve your sleep and stress. That's just always the thing we need to be doing, and if you are running on low sleep, running on high stress, high perceived stress, psychological, physical, whatever that is creating a highly inflammatory state for you. It is a legitimate physiological outcome of having too much stress and not enough sleep and not enough recovery. Recovery is not optional. The older we get, the more important recovery gets by leaps and bounds. It is a foundation.

Philip Pape: 10:19

The fourth tip I have here out of five is optimizing your dietary pattern. So here's where people will hear me and say how can you tell people to eat seed oils? How can you tell people to eat like so many carbs and fat, and they say, no, I'm not telling people you know how much or what to eat. I'm asking you to optimize your diet for you based on a variety of factors based on your satiety, eating guilt-free, supporting your performance goals, supporting your energy needs, and so what that looks like for people to be able to do it sustainably is prioritizing whole foods, fiber, diversity of your diet, which means proteins, fats and carbs, and nutrients, of course, that are gonna support your gut microbiome. So we're not talking about food perfectionism. We're not talking about specific foods to add in or avoid. We're talking about the overall dietary pattern through a variety of foods that you choose that meet these needs, and that's the flexibility part that makes a huge difference.

Philip Pape: 11:16

And then, fifth and finally, we want to minimize environmental toxins when you can control them, and that's easy when it comes to smoking, not easy, I mean. Obviously it's hard to quit smoking for those who are addicted, but it's an obvious lever. Limiting or eliminating alcohol and then all the other chemical exposures, to whatever degree, makes sense for you in your life, depending on where you live, depending on what products you use, whether you microwave foods in plastic I'm not gonna get into those details. That's not my area of expertise, to be honest. That's very personalized and I don't wanna fear monger over that. But the accumulation of these does create a level of inflammatory load that your other healthy habits are basically counteracting, and if you want to just further improve that inflammatory state, you have to consider those All right. So, to summarize, it's body composition, movement, sleep and stress, aka recovery your dietary pattern and minimizing environmental toxins.

Philip Pape: 12:13

Now, I alluded to this briefly, but I want to hit it home. Okay, your muscle tissue isn't just for strength, it isn't just for aesthetics or function. It's your primary anti-inflammatory organ. When you contract your muscles during exercise, they release compounds, in the moment called myokines, that communicate with your fat tissue, your liver, your brain, your immune system, and they actively suppress inflammatory pathways and they promote healing throughout your body. Right, and the funny thing is, lifting weights is a hormetic stressor, it's an acute stressor, it's an acute level of inflammation, but it benefits your chronic inflammation tremendously. Every time you lift weights, every time you move with intention, you are programming your body to be less inflammatory. Right, it's just like you're adding more calorie-burning tissue to your body and that just operates 24-7. Same thing here. You're creating a less inflammatory environment and that's why people who strength train consistently have lower inflammatory markers in their blood than sedentary people, even when controlling for body weight. So we have to have the body composition, but we also have to be training and building muscle. The muscle itself is actively fighting inflammation at the cellular level and it gets stronger the more you use it and the more you train, the more anti-inflammatory your body becomes. So there's nothing more apropos than you know this show, wits and Weights, using your brain to understand that inflammation comes from lifestyle, and then lifting some weights, knowing that muscle and strength and all of that is the biggest anti-inflammatory impact here. And I've talked to otherwise healthy people who don't strength train and they're leaving a lot on the table because they're making it a lot harder than themselves in multiple ways, especially as they get older. So the fitness industry they want you to believe.

Philip Pape: 13:55

Inflammation is complicated, that you have to have special diets, you have to buy their supplement to control it, you have to cut out these foods. You know, you look at the reels of these idiots in the grocery store pointing out why you shouldn't eat this and shouldn't eat that. Ignore it, unfollow, right the out why you shouldn't eat this and shouldn't eat that. Ignore it, unfollow, right? The truth is that inflammation is a systems problem, with systems solutions. Stop obsessing over individual foods and start optimizing the lifestyle factors. It's not easy, it takes effort, it does, it takes patience, but you have all the information at your fingertips on how to make it happen and now it's just a matter of the right level of commitment and action. And sometimes that's support and motivation as well, through whether it's coaching or community or just listening to the show you know. Reach out, join our Facebook group If you need some more help. If you need a community, I've got coaching options as well If you need that.

Philip Pape: 14:47

I want you to build muscle to create your body's anti-inflammatory pharmacy. Build muscle to create your body's anti-inflammatory pharmacy. That's your pharmacy, no supplements. I want you to move regularly to keep your immune system balanced. I want you to manage your stress and sleep to prevent cortisol-driven inflammation. I want you to focus on the dietary pattern and the flexibility, not food perfectionism and restriction, because your body's very sophisticated We've hidden this point many times. It is designed to maintain balance, to maintain homeostasis when you give it the right inputs, and so work with that, work with that.

Philip Pape: 15:18

All right, this episode's kind of short, but I think it hit on the main points that inflammation is a systems-based lifestyle choice. That's how I'm gonna put it. It's not specific foods, it's really about lifestyle. So the same lifestyle that improves your physique going to put it, it's not specific foods, it's really about lifestyle. So the same lifestyle that improves your physique, your body composition, your health, will also give you less inflammation.

Philip Pape: 15:35

If this episode changed how you think about inflammation, I want you to text it to someone who's been caught up in the hype, in the anti-inflammatory hype. Maybe they don't yet understand that the solution isn't to restrict more you know to do, carnivore, something like that. It's just a better system and a better lifestyle and information like this can literally change someone's relationship with food and their health and then it can change their life. So I really encourage you to text it with a friend. Let them know about the episode as a bonus, post it to social media, to your story or to your feed, and tag me. I'm at Wits and Weights on all platforms and that's it. Inflammation the more you know, right. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, when it comes to inflammation, engineer your lifestyle system, don't chase the symptoms or specific foods. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

5 Steps to Overcome Menopause Weight Loss Resistance | Ep 335

Grab your free Menopause Fat Loss Over 40 Guide to get the complete evidence-based strategy for navigating fat loss during this transition

--

Struggling with unexplained weight gain during perimenopause or menopause? You're not alone, and it's not just "hormones and aging."

The menopause transition triggers a perfect storm of metabolic changes that go well beyond simple hormone fluctuations. Research shows us that during a specific 3.5-year window, women experience accelerated fat gain and muscle loss that can dramatically alter body composition, even when the scale barely moves (though in many cases it does and you seem to always gain weight).

Learn the real science behind why your body composition changes during this transition (including the surprising protein leverage effect that's sabotaging your efforts) and discover evidence-based strategies that actually work to improve your body composition and support fat loss.

Main Takeaways:

• The menopausal transition uniquely accelerates fat gain and muscle loss in a specific 3.5-year window (it's not just normal aging)

• Body composition can shift dramatically even when the scale doesn't move (you lose muscle while gaining fat, especially belly fat)

• The "protein leverage effect" drives overconsumption when muscle protein breakdown increases your appetite for protein

• FSH (follicle-stimulating hormone) affects metabolism independently of estrogen, starting before estrogen significantly declines

• Strategic lifestyle, nutrition, and training adjustments can prevent or reverse these changes

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS - Track your food and let the app calculate your metabolism

• Lifting Weights vs. Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) for Fat Loss Over 40 | Ep 278

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why the scale keeps creeping up and jeans keep getting tighter
2:50 - Body weight vs. body composition
6:45 - Beyond estrogen (the role of FSH in metabolism)
9:27 - The protein leverage effect (affects overeating)
12:17 - Menopause myths (age and inevitable weight gain)
16:45 - Evidence-based solutions
18:22 - This 1 behavior gives you more confidence and control
21:32 - The role of chronic stress in exacerbating metabolic changes
24:42 - Reframing the menopause transition as an opportunity

Why You’re Not Losing Fat in Menopause (and 5 Things That Actually Work)

You’re eating the same. You’re moving the same. But suddenly the scale won’t budge—or worse, it’s creeping up. Your clothes feel tighter. That stubborn fat around your belly won’t go away. If you’re in perimenopause or menopause, this probably sounds all too familiar.

You’ve been told it’s “just your hormones,” that weight gain is inevitable, or that you just need to eat less and move more. But here’s the truth: yes, hormonal changes are real. But they’re not the full story, and they’re not a death sentence for your goals.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, I laid out the science behind menopause-related fat gain and gave you five actionable strategies to fight back with confidence. Let’s dig in.

Why Body Composition Shifts During Menopause

The number on the scale doesn’t tell the whole story. Many women maintain their weight but notice more fat and less muscle. That’s because menopause drives significant changes in body composition, not just total weight.

Here’s what the research shows:

• Fat mass increases while lean mass decreases, even if weight stays the same.

• Fat is redistributed to the trunk and abdomen, with postmenopausal women gaining 36% more trunk fat and 49% more intra-abdominal fat.

• This change starts before estrogen drops. A hormone called FSH (follicle-stimulating hormone) rises early in perimenopause and alters fat storage and metabolism.

So no, you’re not crazy, and it’s not just “aging.” There’s a clear hormonal shift happening, and it’s driving these changes.

The Protein Leverage Effect (a Hidden Trigger for Fat Gain)

One of the most underappreciated drivers of weight gain in menopause is something called the protein leverage effect.

As you lose muscle mass during menopause, your body starts craving more protein. But if you’re eating the same diet you always have—without increasing protein—you unconsciously eat more calories from carbs and fats just to meet your body’s need for protein.

In other words, low protein intake drives higher total energy intake, which leads to fat gain. This happens even if you think you’re eating “healthy” or “light.”

The solution? You need more protein now than ever before. A good target is at least 0.7 grams per pound of body weight, and up to 1 gram per pound. Track your food and hit that number consistently.

Common Myths That Sabotage Progress

Let’s bust a few myths that keep women stuck:

Myth 1: It’s just aging, not hormones

Not true. Aging plays a role, but menopause causes a unique and accelerated shift in body composition. This is backed by large cohort studies like SWAN, which show a steep increase in fat mass and loss of lean mass during the three-and-a-half-year transition window.

Myth 2: Weight gain just means fat gain

Also false. You’re likely losing muscle at the same time. This changes your body shape and metabolism, even if the scale stays the same.

Myth 3: It’s hopeless after menopause

Nope. The most dramatic changes happen during the transition. Once things stabilize, your body becomes more predictable. That’s the perfect time to implement the right strategy.

Myth 4: You just need to eat less and move more

This one is the most damaging. Eating less without a strategy can make things worse by increasing stress, slowing your metabolism, and accelerating muscle loss. You don’t need to starve yourself. You need to train and eat smarter.

The 5 Things That Actually Work

Now that you understand what’s happening in your body, here’s what to do about it. These are the five most effective strategies to support fat loss and strength during perimenopause and beyond.

1. Consider Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT)

If prescribed and monitored by your healthcare provider, HRT can:

• Preserve muscle and bone

• Reduce visceral fat

• Improve metabolic health

• Reduce cardiovascular risk

It’s not for everyone, but when appropriate, it can be a powerful tool.

2. Increase Protein Intake

As we discussed earlier, protein is essential to:

• Preserve lean mass

• Improve satiety

• Control appetite

• Counteract the protein leverage effect

Track your food. Measure your intake. Add more lean protein sources like chicken, beef, fish, eggs, dairy, and even plant-based options if needed.

3. Strength Train. No Exceptions.

Resistance training is the non-negotiable for menopause fat loss. It:

• Reverses sarcopenia

• Boosts resting energy expenditure

• Enhances insulin sensitivity

• Reduces visceral fat

You don’t need to do anything extreme. But you do need progressive overload, proper recovery, and consistency.

4. Stop Chronically Dieting

Being in a constant deficit wrecks your stress response and recovery. You may need to spend 8–12 weeks eating at maintenance and focusing on building strength before cutting again. This “priming” phase is crucial if you’ve been dieting for years.

Use this time to reset your energy balance, eat enough food, and regain metabolic flexibility.

5. Manage Stress and Recovery

You can be doing everything right with food and training, but if your stress is through the roof, your body won’t respond. High stress keeps you in a sympathetic state, makes recovery harder, and worsens hormonal symptoms.

Ways to reduce stress:

• Get outside and walk regularly

• Sleep at least 7 hours

• Strength train instead of endless cardio

• Eat enough carbs and total calories

• Use data (like MacroFactor or a simple journal) to give you confidence

Reframe This Chapter of Life

Instead of seeing menopause as the end of your body goals, reframe it as the beginning of a new, empowered chapter. You’re more capable now than ever to understand your body, track meaningful data, and take action based on evidence.

With the right inputs—protein, strength training, recovery, and smart nutrition—you’ll build a stronger, more resilient body than you had in your 20s. It’s absolutely possible. I’ve seen it over and over again.

And if you want help putting this all together, grab my free guide Menopause Fat Loss Over 40. It breaks down exactly how to plan your macros, train smart, and take control of this new phase of life.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let me know if this sounds familiar. The scale keeps creeping up. Your genes keep getting tighter. That stubborn belly fat seems to have taken up permanent residence around your midsection. If you're in perimenopause or postmenopause, you've probably been told it's just your hormones, that weight gain is inevitable and you should just accept it. But what if I told you that's not the whole story? Today, we're exposing the real mechanisms behind perimenopause and menopause weight gain. Yes, hormones play a role, but there are surprising factors at work you may not know about. You'll discover why body composition changes even when the scale doesn't move the protein leverage effect that's sabotaging your efforts, and tips and strategies based on evidence that actually work to improve your body composition and fat loss.

Philip Pape: 0:56

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're tackling one of the most frustrating and misunderstood topics in women's health why you keep gaining weight during perimenopause and menopause and I get more questions about this topic than almost any other, and for good reason, because if you're a woman in your 40s or 50s, you've likely experienced this yourself, despite maintaining the same diet and training routine that might have even worked for years, for decades. Suddenly your body seems to be working against you, and conventional wisdom, the industry, the fitness influencers out there tell you it's hormones, it's aging. There's a lot of fear mongering around this that you need to eat less and move more, or some other advice that you may have tried that still doesn't seem to be working. And when we look at the research, there's a more complex and interesting picture. That's also an empowering one, and that's really the point of this episode. There are specific mechanisms at play during this transition that create a perfect storm for weight gain and body composition changes, and what's important is that if you understand those, then you have the power to work with those changes instead of wondering what's going on and being frustrated for years to come or just throwing your hands up Now, before we get into the science. If you want a practical, evidence-based guide for women navigating fat loss during this time perimenopause and menopause I do have a guide called Menopause Fat Loss Over 40, and it breaks down how to adjust your nutrition and training, specifically the nuts and bolts. It's totally free. You can download it using the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free. Again, that's the Menopause Fat Loss Over 40 guide, and it's really fairly comprehensive in covering all these details so that you can customize it for yourself and come up with an action plan.

Philip Pape: 2:50

So let's start with what's happening and changing in your body during perimenopause and menopause, because it's not what most people think. There are a lot of assumptions out there, myself included. I made them for years. Obviously, I'm a man, I'm not a woman. I'm not going to go through these personally, but I've studied this extensively and worked with lots and lots of clients. Probably two-thirds of my clients are women in this age range and I absolutely love helping them to figure this stuff out, because it can be challenging. I will admit that it can be challenging. You have to really know what's going on.

Philip Pape: 3:20

So I want to start with talking about the basics body weight versus body composition. When we look at studies, whether they're cross-sectional, longitudinal, high-quality studies we see a pretty consistent phenomenon of weight gain steady weight gain of about a half a kilogram or a little over a pound a year. That is correlated with age more than it has to do with menopause itself. But there's definitely conflicting evidence out there and that's where it gets confusing. At the start of the menopause transition, we see the rates of fat gain double and lean mass decline. Now, those are just averages, but these gains and losses continue throughout this whole hormonal transition, which is what's exacerbating the challenge for women in this period. And we have to acknowledge that. You know, even though at some point these trajectories tend to level out and match anyone you know men, women, any any age at after that point, the transition itself is what's calling, causing this acceleration. That's making things challenging.

Philip Pape: 4:20

So what's happening is your total weight, your body weight might not change dramatically. You might, in fact be intentionally preventing it from changing with dieting, cutting calories, with trying to do more cardio, things like that. But your body composition metrics, they have reduction in fat-free mass, increase in fat mass, and these opposing changes that result in weight changing very little still cause lots of other things to go awry. Let's just say and that's why the scale can be so misleading during this time because you think maybe nothing's happening because the weight is stable and, by the way, I know for many of you the weight is going up. So that's why the scale can be so misleading during this time, because you think maybe nothing's happening because the weight is stable. And, by the way, I know for many of you the weight is going up, so that's just compounding it when there's additional body fat accumulation. But for many of you you might maintain the same weight, but underneath you're losing muscle, you're gaining fat, and it's not just any fat. Post-menopausal women gain about 36% more trunk fat right Ab, 36% more trunk fat right Abdominal in the trunk area, 49% greater intra-abdominal fat and 22% greater subcutaneous abdominal fat than premenopausal women.

Philip Pape: 5:36

So when we talk about menopause belly and things like that, there is reality to those experiences. For good reason, there's something called the Study of Women's Health Across the Nation, or SWAN study. It followed over 3,000 women through the menopause transition and it revealed that the transition itself, not mere aging, the transition itself uniquely accelerates fat gain and lean loss in about a three and a half year window. So that's that transition I was talking about. It is not just the gradual aging, or else you would see it be fairly linear or fairly consistent. I should say it's a specific biological transition that dramatically accelerates these changes during a short window of time.

Philip Pape: 6:11

So women who come to me frustrated it's funny I've actually had some clients that worked with me who reached out maybe a year or two prior and were starting to have some challenges. And they said you know what? I'm not sure I'm ready for coaching or it's too expensive. I'm going to try to go it alone and do what I've been doing. And then things get worse and worse and harder and harder and they're like what is going on? And it's probably because these changes are kicking in and it's during that time when you've really got to lock down and figure out what you need to do for yourself personally, and that's what I'm trying to empower you to do here with this episode.

Philip Pape: 6:45

So you've probably heard that the reason for this is the declining estrogen, and that is partially true. Excuse me, but I think the real story again is more nuanced. It involves multiple players with hormones. Estradiol, which, yes, is the primary form of estrogen, declines. But there's another hormone that people don't talk about and that is FSH, follicle stimulating hormone, and the early menopausal transition shows a sharp rise in serum FSH levels, even when serum estrogen levels remain within normal limits.

Philip Pape: 7:17

And that's important because FSH, it's not just for reproduction, it also directly affects your metabolism Through something called high affinity receptors, some of which are variants of the ovarian FSH receptor, called FSHR. Fsh regulates bone mass adipose tissue, the function of your fat mass, energy metabolism and cholesterol production, and that's in both sexes, men and women. And so the SWAN study found that FSH was correlated with bone resorption. That's effectively the way bones release byproducts that maintain what's called calcium homeostasis. Basically, it has to do with your bone health. Let's just put it just to simplify it. And other studies in addition to the SWAN study found that the hormone regulates body fat and energy homeostasis. So it's very important.

Philip Pape: 8:06

And so as it rises, which happens before the estrogen drops significantly in menopause, it's already starting to change how your body stores and burns fat, and this explains why some women start noticing changes in early perimenopause, when their periods are still regular. So for all the gaslighting out in the world of, oh, you're too young, no, you're not, there's obviously still things happening as a precursor to the final. You know that three and a half year menopause transition. Where it gets more interesting is that genetics you know even race and ethnicity, body mass index all of these affect the trajectory of estrogen or the estradiol and FSH changes over the transition. So your genetic background, your current body composition, influence how dramatically these change, which explains why some women experience way more severe symptoms than others.

Philip Pape: 8:53

I've had clients who you know got into their fifties and said you know, I've had absolutely zero issues whatsoever, everything's been just the same as it always was. And others that are like what the heck is going on? This seems hopeless, everything is just going haywire. What do I do? Right? And these are all real experiences and they're biologically supported and they're largely due to genetic differences and lifestyle and behavior and your history and all of that. So here's where the research gets fascinating, if it isn't fascinating already, and that is what can be the game changer for you and how you approach your nutrition during this time.

Philip Pape: 9:27

There are researchers from the University of Sydney discovered something called the protein leverage effect that happens during menopause. When we look at analysis of nutritional changes during the transition, we see that there's enhanced protein breakdown as a trigger for weight gain via a mechanism called the protein leverage effect. All right, so enhanced. Now you might have heard, kind of at a surface level, that women seem to need more protein as they age or they have more rapid loss of muscle and things like that. Yeah, unfortunately, it compounds the weight gain and the way it works is that when the progressive loss in your protein occur, it causes an increased appetite for protein.

Philip Pape: 10:15

And if there's not a corresponding increase in your dietary protein, then the consequence is you have extra intake of energy from non-protein sources. You have extra intake of energy from non-protein sources, and so as you lose muscle mass during menopause, which gets accelerated by the declining estrogen and the rising FSH, your body develops a stronger appetite for protein. But if you're eating the same way you always have and you're not getting enough protein, you're also not getting nearly enough of the concentration you need now, and so your body keeps driving you to eat more food until you hit your protein target, and then those extra calories come from carbs and fats and chances are you're eating more calories in general because you don't have enough protein and satiety and blah, blah, blah, right. So it's like this vicious cycle. So, without increasing the proportion of protein in your diet, the body's drive to reach its protein target is going to make you hungrier and continue to eat unnecessary calories until you do so, and this is unique to menopause. So very important to understand one of the reasons why we like to up our protein for everybody, but especially women, during this time, and the researchers calculated that weight gain and fat mass adiposity, we call it, as well as the loss of your lean tissue, including the loss of muscle, might be mitigated or even prevented just by adding in a little more protein. I think they estimate around 16 or 17% of the daily value, something like that, or up to 20% something, but anyway, we are trying to get way more protein in that. Anyway, we're trying to get around 0.7 to 1 grams per pound of body weight. So if you're listening to this saying, yeah, I know all this, philip, I've already increased my protein. I'm still having issues. This is just one of many things going on, and the solution here isn't that you should eat less, right, it's eating smarter. It's eating more food volume, it's eating more protein and that's a common theme for everybody. It's a very effective way to eat, in a flexible way that doesn't cut complete macros, like you're not just cutting carbs, you're not just cutting sugar or cutting anything, right, you're eating more protein and more nutritious things and more filling things.

Philip Pape: 12:17

So let's get into some of the myths about menopause weight gain that I think are causing confusion, and then this leads to some of the other tips that I have today. The first myth is that it's not aging or it's not menopause, it's just aging. So you'll hear some fitness influencers, especially like 25 year old men, saying you know, it's not your hormones, it's not menopause, it's just because you're getting older. And that's incorrect, because while aging drives some changes for everybody, menopause adds unique shifts that we already referred to the accelerated fat gain and muscle loss, and it's for a decent amount of time. So that's myth number one.

Philip Pape: 12:53

Myth number two that weight gain means only fat gain, and this is dangerous because it's not just that you're gaining fat, you are also losing lean mass, and so you're gaining even more fat than you think. Does that make sense? So you're actually fat, you are also losing lean mass, and so you're gaining even more fat than you think. Does that make sense? So you're actually losing some lean mass, gaining fat, and even if your weight on the scale doesn't change, you've gained body fat and body fat percentage, and so that's why a lot of women get frustrated. They're seeing their bodies change, becoming more fluffy, frumpy. You know the muffin top, all the trigger phrases that we use, even when the scale doesn't move, and then, of course, it gets even worse when the scale does move.

Philip Pape: 13:32

Myth number three is that post-menopause means you can't stop gaining Like you're just going to. It's inevitable, like no matter what, unless you eat, you know 700 calories. It's inevitable. But actually, after the transition that the three and a half year average transition, the composition stabilizes and that gives you a new milestone where you can intervene If you're already there, for example, the good news is that the most dramatic changes only happen during a certain window, and after that window you have a little bit better environment going on. You have a little bit better environment going on, which is why I encourage you starting as soon as you can, cause the sooner you can get in place the proper lifestyle for you, uh, the easier it'll be and you might even get additional gains than you that you didn't expect. When things get, quote unquote easier which, again, every woman's different, some, for some women, women, that's a obvious improvement and for others it may be more subtle.

Philip Pape: 15:13

And then I'll I'll have one more myth for you here, the one that really bothers me of all this that you need to just eat less and move more. Right, and I can't stand it, because I see Facebook posts, youtube videos, whatever, and people try to get into nuances about this stuff and people. Somebody will reply and say you just need to eat less and move more, like that's it. No, no, this ignores the metabolic and hormonal changes happening in your body and if you just eat less, you're probably going to exacerbate them because of the stress you know. The mechanism of developing obesity in menopausal women is clearly a distinct phenomenon, a mechanism driven by the things we've talked about related to hormones, leading to muscle loss and fat gain and fat gain in certain areas that we don't necessarily want them right muscle loss and fat gain and fat gain in certain areas that we don't necessarily want them Right. The reality is, your body's metabolic landscape is basically shifting into a completely different identity and the approaches that you had in your 20s and 30s are not going to work now. They may not work now. It depends on your history.

Philip Pape: 16:07

So now we understand what's happening, let's talk about what works, and I want to be clear. This isn't about a detox or a quick fix or something you're going to fix in the next month or two. This is working with the new realities, having the right expectations and patience, and if you do, you can be absolutely successful. This is the common theme when I talk to my clients or we look in our physique university I actually just asked the question at last week's check-in. What's the one thing you would tell somebody who's just starting this journey? And the recurring theme is to be patient and follow the process. And I know we don't like to hear it, but as long as you have the right process which we're going to talk about here you will be successful.

Philip Pape: 16:45

So first I want to talk about hormone replacement therapy and kind of get that out of the way. We know that estradiol-based hormone replacement therapy does slow fat gain, it does preserve muscle and bone health, it does reduce cardiovascular risk and the benefits are greatest when started early in the transition. So I'm not against HRT at all if that is something you need. I'm not a medical doctor. This is not medical advice. The decision about HRT is between you and your healthcare provider. It may not be estradiol, maybe other forms of hormone replacement. So that's really not my area of expertise in terms of prescribing or recommending or anything like that. And I work with clients who have a team of professionals including usually a hormone specialist, who decides what makes sense for them. Maybe it's thyroid, maybe it's progesterone, something else, but research shows that when it is appropriate, hrt is incredibly beneficial for body composition during this transition. So I wanted to mention that first, I did a previous episode that compared HRT versus strength training and basically the conclusion was they're both great and they're both contextual Strength training. Everyone should be doing HRT. Not everyone should or needs to do it necessarily. Maybe, maybe not. Again, that's where it's very personalized. So that's HRT.

Philip Pape: 17:56

Secondly, is nutrition Based on the protein leverage research and what we know about the importance of protein period. It's just a far gone conclusion that we have to increase protein and I recommend at least 0.7 grams per day, getting up to one gram per pound per day. So per pound per day. So whatever you're eating now, it's basically trying to get to that new level. The best way to do that is to track your food and know what the heck is going on, know what is going into your mouth.

Philip Pape: 18:22

That is often the biggest missing thing here. That creates a massive level of confidence for women who are frustrated because they simply don't know how much they're eating. They think they're eating, you know, 1500 calories a day or 1200 calories a day, but they're actually averaging 2000, 25, maybe 3000 calories a day and just don't know it right. Don't know it and I'm not asking you to cut things out right, I'm not asking you to cut things out. I'm asking you to add in high quality animal and plant protein into your diet and as well as high fiber foods. That alone is going to make a massive difference. But you've also got to track to understand where the calories come into play. The calorie density comes into play, the food volume, all of those things. If you're not sure about all this I do have other episodes on it. You can just reach out. I'm happy to send you a link on that. So that's the nutrition. Protein fiber is the focus. And then, third, we have resistance training. That is absolutely non-negotiable.

Philip Pape: 19:12

Strength training is going to preserve your lean mass. It's going to counter sarcopenia, the loss of muscle mass. It's going to boost your metabolism in many, many ways. It's going to boost your hormones. It's going to help in just every way imaginable, even mental health. Muscle loss that happens during their transition is pretty much all prevented with proper strength training. So if I were to put a bow on this whole episode, it would be simply adding in and doing consistent. Strength training is going to mitigate significantly many of these issues because you're holding onto your muscle and you're building new muscle, and that is going to reverse your body composition into a positive direction. As far as your diet, overall, we want to have a flexible diet that's focused on satiety and eating without guilt and supporting your nutrients being nutrient-dense, high-volume foods, a diverse diet full of yes, all the macros, protein, fats and carbs really good carbs. Having plenty of energy, eating enough food for your goals, not constantly dieting. Again, that's an entire different topic we can dive into, but that is really, really important when you're in menopause to potentially take a pause and forget about losing weight on the scale for a bit and instead focus on building a resilient, strong body that supports building and holding onto muscle, which will then make fat loss so much easier.

Philip Pape: 20:34

And the last thing I really want to mention here, which I was I was wondering if I should or not because it's its own unique topic that affects everyone, but it exacerbates the situation during this time of life, and that is, uh, being in a high alert, chronically stressed state all the time. And this is a challenge no matter whether you're in the menopause transition or not, whether you're a man or a woman. It's the life obligations, it's the stress from raising or supporting a family. It's the stress from work, financial stress, all of the things that are going on around us and the way we live, with screens and our schedules and being on the go right All of that perceived stress physical stress, psychological stress is going to make things harder, and some of this stress is caused simply because you're trying to diet a lot, and some of this stress is caused because you are worried about the whole situation.

Philip Pape: 21:32

And I find that once you have some modicum of control over this, with regular strength training, with tracking what goes in your mouth, however you want to do it, my preferred way to do that is macro factor, because that app will calculate your metabolism for you and give you accurate targets, and that gives you confidence to then maintain your weight and then lose some fat, if that's what you're going after. All of these things create confidence. That then counteracts some of that stress. But being in this high alert state all the time itself is something that affects your metabolism, um, and it just exacerbates everything going on. So I did want to mention that, um, because the you know, the nutrition strategy, the training, the HRT, will definitely cover a big piece of the pie, but for some some of you out there, some of you women, the stress itself is so high that it can counteract almost anything, and some of that stress comes from the fact that you're just not eating enough, and so they play hand in hand. Right, all of this plays together. So this is why I like spending about two months initially dialing in those habits for lifting, for eating enough food, for eating enough protein and carbs yes, both and kind of seeing where you are with the numbers and with maintaining that high energy state, and then you can decide okay, from this point I'm in a really good stress situation training and nutrition situation, hormone situation to go after the fat loss, and even then you may need a more aggressive or less aggressive fat loss approach, depending on where your metabolism stands. So that's, those are my takeaways for like the big picture of what to do.

Philip Pape: 23:16

What's the solution framework here for women in perimenopause? Once you understand why this is happening and that it's primarily due to the loss of muscle mass, primarily and I would look at this transition as if we can reframe it for you as just the perfect time, just the perfect opportunity to develop more metabolic resilience and metabolic flexibility, because when your body is forced to adapt to new hormonal conditions. It can become more efficient and more resilient when you have the right strategy and you can end up with improved metabolic health, much more improved than you might have had even in your 20s and 30s and we sometimes neglect this aspect. But the health, the longevity, the metabolism because you have a better body composition, because you have more energy, because you're stronger than what you had in decades past and you're working with this new reality of your body, this transition could be just a completely new identity for yourself as a strong, functional, athletic person in life. And remember, your body is not broken during menopause. It's far from it. It's adapting to a new reality and you just have to give it the right inputs right the adequate protein, the resistance training, proper recovery, not constantly dieting, setting yourself up for fat loss in a more efficient, effective way. And that's a really, really positive thing when you can do that.

Philip Pape: 24:42

It's what I love helping women do, because it can be very challenging. The first, I'll say, few months of this process are a lot of discoveries happening, education along with patience, and that's the real challenge for a lot of you is that without that patience, all the learning and information in the world is not going to matter because you're not going to be able to apply it. And so knowing that this can be the beginning, just the very beginning, of the strongest, healthiest phase of your life, when you have the information but then you implement it with the patience, is going to pay off big time. It's just going to be amazing. So I want you to remember that the weight gain, the body composition changes during peri and post menopause are not inevitable. They are not right. They are not from just getting older, they're not just because of hormones. They're a sign that your body, or they're not a sign that your body's failing or you're doomed to struggle with your weight for the rest of your life.

Philip Pape: 25:36

When we look at the research research peel it back and when I look at real experience with many, many different clients across the spectrum of menopause and different situations, we see that the interplay between the declining estrogen, the rising FSH, the muscle protein breakdown, the protein leverage, all of that is understandable, it is objective. And then it shows us what works Strategically increasing the protein, strategically adding in progressive overload-based strength training and, in many cases, yes, hormone replacement therapy. It's all of those things. Now you may not want to have medications or therapy or whatever, and that's fine. I've worked with clients who said you know, I want to go all natural with this, and then we again have to have the realistic expectations for what that means. You can still have incredible progress, absolutely Okay, absolutely.

Philip Pape: 26:26

The women who thrive during this transition are those who understand what's happening in their bodies, their personal own bodies. That's what I mean, not just the science, that's great, but they actually collect the data, they measure things, they track things Not in an obsessive way, not in a way that's highly convenient or takes a lot of time In a very efficient way, measuring the right things, making it a habit, and not trying to fight physiology by doing it too quickly or being impatient or throwing up your hands saying no, no, no, this doesn't work, I'm done. Or I tried this for a week and I got frustrated. My scale weight popped up. It doesn't work. Those attitudes are not going to serve you well, but an attitude of patience and ownership and positivity, of hey, I know this can work. I'm going to take the philosophy and the steps that Philip just talked about and figure out what the low-hanging fruit is for me and for many of you.

Philip Pape: 27:17

It might be that you're not strength training or doing it in a way that progresses, or maybe you're not strength training or doing it in a way that progresses, or maybe you're not tracking your food. You're not even sure how much you eat. Maybe you're not eating enough, maybe you're not eating enough protein or carbs. All of that and it's just updating your strategy objectively to match your phase of life, and then you're going to be amazed at what's possible. You really are All right.

Philip Pape: 27:36

So if you're ready to take some action with an evidence-based approach that we talked about for women navigating fat loss during peri and post-menopause, the guide that I put together lays out the key steps that we talked about today so you can personalize it for yourself. It's called Menopause, fat Loss Over 40. It includes everything we discussed how to plan your calories and macros, how to train, all of it. Go to witsandweightscom, slash free or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember this transition isn't the end of your fitness journey. It's the beginning of a new, empowered chapter of life where you understand your body better than ever before. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The Biggest Training Mistakes After Novice Progression (Starting Strength CEO Nick Delgadillo) | Ep 334

Get your free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint to optimize your diet and tracking so you have the energy and recovery to maximize your lifting

–

Why did your strength gains stall, and what can you actually do about it? Are you overtrained or just under-recovered? And when is it time to change the program, not your goals?

I’m joined by Nick Delgadillo, CEO of Starting Strength Gyms and host of the Stronger Is Better podcast. We break down what really causes lifters to hit that dreaded wall after the novice phase and how to break through it with intention and sustainability. Nick explains why small tweaks, not full overhauls, are key to continued gains and how your form, food, and follow-through matter more than fancy programs.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:38 – The psychology of the post-novice wall
5:25 – Why recovery outside the gym matters
10:23 – Novice vs. intermediate isn’t black and white
13:11 – How to troubleshoot your progress
17:21 – Three-part self-check before changing programming
28:26 – Training through tendon pain safely
34:59 – Returning to strength after surgery
50:15 – How mindset shapes long-term success
53:20 – Starting Strength Gyms and the future of lifting

Episode resources:

• Starting Strength Podcast

• Stronger is Better Podcast on Spotify / Stronger is Better Podcast on Apple

• Website: startingstrengthgyms.com

• Instagram: @liftfightwin 

Why Most Lifters Stall After the Novice Phase (and What to Do Instead)

You’ve followed the plan. You ran your linear progression. You’ve built a decent strength base. But now the weights aren’t going up like they used to, and suddenly you’re stuck. This is where most lifters either stall for years, burn out, or start program-hopping. But it doesn’t have to be that way.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, I talked to Nick Delgadillo, CEO of Starting Strength Gyms, about the real reasons people hit a wall after their novice phase and how to transition smoothly into intermediate training without overhauling everything or spinning your wheels for years.

Why Linear Progression Eventually Fails

During the novice phase, progress feels almost magical. You add weight to the bar every session, your muscles grow, your technique improves, and life is good. But this phase doesn’t last forever. Typically within 4 to 7 months, progress slows and motivation starts to dip. Here’s why:

• Strength gains require more recovery, more food, more sleep, and more consistency.

• Training gets hard quickly. Especially with aggressive linear programs like Starting Strength, the intensity ramps up fast. If you’ve never done hard physical things, this can be a shock.

• Distractions creep in. Life gets in the way. You miss sessions. You question the plan.

This is the point where you either double down or drift away. And for most lifters, this is when they need to shift their mindset, not their program.

The 3-Part Self-Assessment for Stalled Progress

Before you blame your genetics or age, Nick recommends a simple framework to troubleshoot your progress:

1. Form Check

Are you lifting with good enough technique to keep progressing? Not perfect, but efficient enough to avoid energy leaks, joint stress, or form breakdown at heavier weights.

Even experienced lifters benefit from a coach’s eye. Many issues like elbow pain, knee discomfort, or hip shifts come down to bar path, grip width, or back tightness. It’s not always a matter of needing more rest or switching exercises.

2. Compliance

Are you actually doing the program? Not your interpretation of it. Are you missing sessions? Changing rest times? Adding unnecessary fluff or skipping important sets?

One of the most common reasons lifters stall is because they aren’t being honest with themselves about consistency.

3. Recovery

Are you sleeping enough? Eating enough? Getting enough protein and carbs to fuel adaptation?

As Nick said, you can’t have an intelligent programming discussion unless you’re recovering well. Most of the time, the issue isn’t overtraining. It’s under-recovering.

Programming Changes Should Be Small and Strategic

Moving beyond novice training isn’t about scrapping your plan or jumping to a new program. It’s about making the smallest possible change to continue progress.

If your deadlift stalls but your squat and bench are fine, only adjust the deadlift. Maybe it needs more rest. Maybe the frequency needs to drop. But leave the rest of your program alone.

In fact, Starting Strength's own "advanced novice" programming recommends this tweak-as-needed approach, but most people skip past it and jump programs.

Progress after the novice phase should look more like this:

• Slowly increasing volume or intensity

• Adding light days to support recovery

• Introducing backoff sets or rep variations

• Spreading training stress more evenly throughout the week

All of that depends on collecting feedback, being patient, and keeping things simple.

Strength Training Is a Long Game

Strength is a lifelong pursuit, not a six-month challenge. If you want to keep lifting into your 50s, 60s, and 70s, your training has to be:

• Sustainable. You can’t go all-in all the time.

• Goal-oriented. If you don’t know what you’re working toward, training loses meaning.

• Adaptive. Life happens. Injuries, stress, and schedule changes will force you to pivot. Don’t quit. Just adjust.

When Injuries or Pain Show Up

Tendonitis, shoulder pain, low back tweaks — these happen. But most of the time, they’re not a reason to stop training altogether. Nick’s advice:

• Start by checking technique. Most chronic pain comes from small but fixable form issues.

• Don’t deload right away. Instead, keep the load heavy but use variations like paused or tempo reps to avoid aggravating the injury.

• Drive healing. Don’t just wait to feel better. You need to apply stress to stimulate adaptation and recovery.

Even post-surgery, strength training can be the recovery tool when approached correctly.

Grit Is the Real Secret

Some lifters are wired for delayed gratification. Others aren’t. When they don’t see instant results, they give up. But if you can push through the discomfort and uncertainty, that’s where long-term success lives.

You don’t need constant motivation. You need a reason to keep showing up. A plan. A coach. A community. A reminder that doing the work is the goal.

As Nick put it, if you believe you can’t succeed, you won’t even try. But if you participate in the process, even without guarantees, you’ll grow.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

you've put in the work, you follow the program, you've built a solid strength foundation, but now your progress has hit a wall. That linear progression that works so well in the beginning isn't delivering results anymore. Today, starting Strength CEO Nick Delgadillo reveals why lifters get stuck after the novice phase and what to do about it. You'll discover the biggest mistakes that halt your progress when it's time to change your program and the principles to keep getting stronger for decades, not just months. If you're wondering why your strength gains have stalled, stop blaming your genetics or age. This episode will help you build your skills as an intermediate or advanced lifter.

Philip Pape: 0:47

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:53

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are tackling one of the most frustrating challenges in the strength world why progress stalls after your novice gains and what to do about it.

Philip Pape: 1:05

My guest today is Nick Delgadillo, the CEO of Starting Strength Gyms and a starting strength coach with tons of experience over a decade of experience guiding lifters through this exact transition. He's also host of a new podcast, stronger is Better. Go follow it, go check it out. He goes into very specific and useful detail on really the principles, which I think are important, but also the details on the methods. So today we're going to discuss the post novice period, after linear progression starts to slow down and that's where all the complicated questions start to pop up the critical errors that lifters make in their training after that phase, and then how to structure your approach to have a long lifting career, given the challenges of life, the injuries, the circumstances we all face as humans who just want to be strong until we die of a deadlift in our nineties. Nick, it is an honor to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on.

Nick Delgadillo: 1:56

Absolutely. Thank you very much, philip. That was a fantastic intro man. I appreciate it.

Philip Pape: 2:01

That's what it's all about, man. I mean and it's great to have somebody on who is deeply embedded in the world that I care most about, which is strength training in general, the word strength being extremely important there, but also from a practical standpoint people can definitely get confused when they starting strength, they go through the basics, they get newbie gains. It's kind of almost easy for a lot of individuals. Let's just oversimplify it and then they start to hit a wall, sometimes very early, and we'll talk about when that is. But, in your experience, what separates the people who keep making progress from those who don't around that?

Nick Delgadillo: 2:37

period.

Nick Delgadillo: 2:38

Yeah, there's a combination of things that happen and you're exactly right. The beginning is exciting and it's easy. It really is easy because there's a lot of things going on. You're learning a new skill, you're learning a new way of moving, you're actually getting stronger and that happens very rapidly and you start to make a lot of progress and there's even some depending on who you are and how your brain is wired you may actually start to see some uh, some aesthetic benefits as well, even if you're like lying to yourself, it's to some extent. But there's a lot of uh, positive feedback occurring in the novice program and it's uh, it's kind of like this compounding process. That is pretty exciting and it's really cool.

Nick Delgadillo: 3:19

Pretty soon, uh, after you know, after, depending on on how young you are and how well you recover and all the things that we always talk about you're looking at four to six months, maybe a little bit longer than that, typically for that kind of exciting novice period where you're just doing the most basic version of strength training and making a lot of rapid progress. A few things happen. Number one just from like a psychological slash, emotional standpoint. Stuff gets to get, starts to get really hard all of a sudden and it goes from like easy to like a little bit hard and you're still enjoying it to really, really hard and you have to, and that happens sooner because of how aggressive the starting strength program is and how quickly you're making improvements. That happens fairly quickly and sometimes, especially people who haven't done really hard things physically before, it's kind of a wake up call and that's one of the factors that makes people stop progressing or shift their goals, or shift their goals away from strength training or find some other hobbies, some other, some other physical thing to do, right. So there's that. There's also the the physiological situation, which is that, uh, you know, everything follows the law of diminishing returns and your, your body, is the same way. Strength adaptations are expensive, they're metabolically difficult to achieve and you're coming up on that reality at about the four to seven month mark. So the key to continue through that and to continue progressing forever is actually slow, heavy reps, and that's the key to strength training.

Nick Delgadillo: 5:00

People who are predisposed to enjoying strength training. They thrive off of that, they enjoy it. That's not the case for most people walking around and they can learn to enjoy it sometimes, but it's really just, is really hard work. So there's that aspect of it. There's the recovery aspect of it in terms of needing more resources in order to continue progressing, needing more food, needing more protein, better sleep, all the things that happen outside of the gym.

Nick Delgadillo: 5:25

And that's difficult. That's very difficult because that involves you extending training, extending the hour or 90 minutes that you're in the gym into the rest of your life and thinking about the next training session. What are you going to do in order to be able to add more weight to the bar in the next training session? And then there's also the time commitment. There's the time commitment. You know the workouts are taking a little bit longer.

Nick Delgadillo: 5:48

And then there's also just the human nature is to is to get distracted right, especially as things are getting things are getting more difficult. You start questioning what you're doing, and then other other uh, ideas, methods, concepts start to become really, really appealing. So one of the things that I really try to do is get people to understand the fundamental concepts and the basic principles so that they at least have a guide on their path, because it's totally understandable to not wanna be a strength athlete. That's a little bit insane, and our contention isn't that everybody should be a strength athlete, but that you should pursue strength training for probably the rest of your life. And so what does that look like?

Nick Delgadillo: 6:26

Going forward and that's a question that each individual trainee and each individual lifter will have to answer for themselves and that happens again at like, the four to six month mark is like. What do I want this to look like? My opinion is that it should be sustainable and that you should incorporate strength training into your life, because it's absolutely necessary If you want to. I mean just as a human walking the earth right.

Philip Pape: 6:53

Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, I personally love it. I know people who get into lifting and think about principles like you're talking about in that way are much more it seems, much more adaptable and open to learning and growth. You know, mentally and physically, as their body changes, the situation changes, the circumstance changes, but the principles remain the same. Um, just just my story, real quick, right.

Philip Pape: 7:09

It was back in the pandemic. You know I hadn't even learned much about proper strength training. I did CrossFit for like eight years and then, having to be at home with hardly any equipment, I just started diving into books and podcasts, including starting strength, and I learned about go mad as well and I knew that wasn't the right diet for a 40 year old. But I will say I drank probably a half go mad diet for a few months and gained a ton of weight, but it helped tremendously Right and I was. I was gaining cause.

Philip Pape: 7:37

You talk about resources, gaining a ton of strength and, as well, muscle, but I didn't care at the time about the muscle side of things yet and the things you mentioned about it being easy, because almost anything works. So we need to understand the principle that makes it work and then carry that forward is missed on a lot of folks in my opinion. And then the how it's physically expensive and you need to keep up with that, uh, is also important, and I'm more of a nutrition guy now because of that, because I see that's often a missing piece for folks. It's just eating plenty of food and carbs and getting the energy, but anyway. So when we look at this arc of someone's lifting journey, when do they hit that first wall? And when they do so, are they intermediate at that point, and I know the answer or are there things that maybe give them feedback, objective feedback, that they should take to continue their novice phase before we get to the intermediate phase?

Nick Delgadillo: 8:29

Yeah, people tend to think of it as an achievement or an endpoint or some kind of like a hard transition from one phase into another. I really, really would like for people to stop thinking about things in this sort of rigid paradigm of novice, intermediate and advanced, because it's all very squishy. The only one that's really an actual category that I can point to somebody and say this is your category and this is the process that you're going to embark on is the novice phase, because that's really simple. All it means is that you can add weight to on is the novice phase, because that's really simple. All it means is that you can add weight to the bar every single time. And even like the novice nomenclature is a little bit, I hardly use it, like in practice it's good. I think it's good for coaches to have this language, to be able to discuss programming and be able to discuss these concepts, but in practice, like if I'm talking to a client or a member at a gym, I will rarely, or if ever, use the word novice, because novice carries some uh, some implications, uh, connotations, and then I have to explain myself. Really, all I want you to know is that you can add weight to the bar every time you come to the gym and we're going to do that, and that's what a novice is and not that's all, and it doesn't matter. Like it could be 65 pounds on the bar, it could be 315 on the bar, so beyond that, it's kind of like a joke at the seminars. It's like some of your lifts are in a novice program, some of your lifts are in an intermediate program, some of your lifts are in an advanced program. So what are you? I mean, pick one right. I tend to look at it as like the squat, because that's the sort of the in my view. It's kind of, or the way I think about it. It's kind of the driver of the of the program, but it does. It doesn't matter ultimately, right? So anyway, point being, it's not, it's not like this, this end point, it's not this smooth or not smooth, it's not this hard transition from like one day you're, you're novice and then two days later you wake up in're intermediate.

Nick Delgadillo: 10:23

I understand that in starting strength and practical programming there are references to an approach where you run the novice program until you stall and then you take a deload and then you run it again and then you take a deload and then you run it again and then you switch into an intermediate program that works in a demographic of trainees who are actively growing and getting bigger, which pretty much narrows it down to young males, and that's it. That's the only demographic that should really be following that approach, because literally between like this week and next week, that kid may have grown a little bit or their body said better. Their body is in a position to grow rapidly and aggressively and respond to an aggressive program. That approach is not well-advised for almost anybody else. So unless you're a 25-year-old guy or under 30-year-old guy and under, and maybe needing to gain some weight, don't do that. So what you're going to do instead is a gradual approach which follows just solid principles.

Nick Delgadillo: 11:29

For anything that's process-based, you have a process that's working. Something in that process is not working anymore, meaning like your press stops going up or your deadlift stops going up, whatever. So what you do is you look at your process and you say, okay, what pieces of this are not working for me anymore? And then I make adjustments to just that piece of it and then let everything else continue the way it's working. So that's kind of the magic. This is referenced in practical programming in the advanced novice chapter. But I and every single person who's done starting strength ever has managed to miss that part of practical programming because we don't actually read the book. You just look at the programs and then I really started to hammer on that with my own thinking and with my own clients and with my programming lectures. And that's actually where the magic is.

Nick Delgadillo: 12:19

It's like understanding how to make small changes. And people have taken this concept and like rebranded it and renamed it, other things, but just making a small change, the smallest possible change to affect the least number of variables, because you have a process that's working. Let's not change everything at one time. Just change one thing and then see what happens and then reassess. You're on a short enough timeline at that point that you'll know if something's working or not within a week generally, but even within a couple of weeks you'll know whether or not you made the right programming change. And that's the key to the whole thing. It's small changes to continue progressing. So there's never this like go, go, go, stop and then switch programs. It's always like go, go, go, go, go and then, rather than stopping, it's just throttling back. You know, just just take the foot off the gas and then take the foot off the gas a little bit more, and that's, that's the. That's the way it looks forever after that.

Philip Pape: 13:11

Yeah, yeah. So you hit at the heart of the systems thinking that I love to talk about too, as an engineer. I'm an engineer by background of controlling the variables, getting the feedback. I just had a client who, for the first time, is eating a pre-workout Right and and he's like what should I eat? He said, try a banana. He's like well, how much? How you know how many? I said just try a banana, you know, so he ate a banana.

Philip Pape: 13:32

A couple of days there he's like man, I feel stronger. I got more reps in the gym. Should I double it, like how many grams? I said, well, that worked. Now double it and see if it works better, and if it doesn't, you're good. You got your answer. So I think it can be quote unquote, simplified in that way. But where the challenge might come in for people listening is what if it isn't the programming? What if it's all the other things outside the gym which I know you also like to talk about? How do we normalize those, at least even if they're not optimal, just kind of make them stable enough or identify what those are so that we can identify programming as the concern?

Nick Delgadillo: 14:04

That's a great question, man. You cannot have an intelligent programming discussion and you can't make a wise programming decision in terms of continuing to progress if you don't have all the other variables controlled, and, just like you said, they don't have to be optimized, but they do have to be controlled. So, uh, that includes things like, uh, nutrition, for sure, it includes things like sleep, and then, uh, you know, all the other things like rest times and appropriate weight jumps, all the things that rip a toe covers in the first three question article. So, um, the things that you have the most control of, probably in order, is your nutrition and then, secondarily, is your sleep. Uh, so, you know cause, depending on the situation, you may or may not be able to sleep, you may have small kids in the house, you may have a crazy work schedule or whatever, but a variable that you definitely can't control is is what you put in your mouth, right? So, uh, and and that's a thing that that almost doesn't matter too much, especially in the beginning oh well, it does matter. But people, uh, you can get a lot of progress without thinking about it, right? So you can do a shortcut or a hack, like GoMad, as a smaller guy and take care of a huge chunk of your nutrition needs just by drinking milk, but that's not sustainable and a lot of times it's not a good idea for who's doing it. So, yeah, that's another aspect that needs to really be looked at at that. Uh, at that critical point, at the four to four to seven month mark, it's starting to look at all the all the habits and things outside of the gym, right? So first step, it's the same kind of systems, uh, thinking that you're you're talking about First thing is just to get a handle on what's going on.

Nick Delgadillo: 15:48

People start wondering it's like what, what's happening? Like, why isn't this working? And then they, and then they, and then they start consuming information and worrying about detail when, like, the big stuff isn't taken care of. I think you know my, my wife the other day said something about it was like genius, but it was, and people have heard this before. But it's like worrying about the pebbles or the sand instead of the boulders Right. Like, get the boulders right and then you'll have bandwidth and room for everything else you need. So it's like, do you even know what you're eating every day and you don't have to tell me a number? But like do you have an idea of how much protein you're eating? And people will say something and it's like it's probably wrong, right? So it's like maybe just write it down, put it in an app, whatever, and let's get a handle on what's going on.

Nick Delgadillo: 16:34

And again, optimizing isn't the first step, because optimizing, especially from a lifestyle standpoint, which includes nutrition and sleep, is a big ask for people. You're now affecting potentially social situations, emotional stuff and just comfort and lifelong habits at that point. So step one isn't like let's figure out exactly your macro split that you need, because you won't even know, right? So it's like somebody could tell you, but that may not be right. Let's establish your macros and then let's start tracking. You're asking somebody to rearrange their entire life. That's not sustainable. Again, sustainability is important. So let's get a handle on it, see what's going on, and then let's make small incremental changes, exactly like we would do for programming, and see what's happening.

Nick Delgadillo: 17:21

But to answer your question, I think I got a little sidetracked there. To answer your question, you cannot have, in the context of continuing to progress your strength training, you can't have a good discussion without making sure that you have control or that you have a good idea of what's going on with your recovery, and it's just that simple. And form is another one. Like, your form has to be close enough that you're not causing massive inefficiencies in the lift that are holding you back, and that can happen in stuff like the deadlift, that can happen in stuff like the overhead press, for sure, and, to some extent, the squat. So the way I describe it is before you make a programming change, we need to do like a self-assessment, and the first step in that self-assessment is is my technique good enough? All, right, and when I say good enough, like, these lifts aren't hard guys, so like, within 90% of what we at starting strength, um, have spent a lot of time thinking about the uh, the most efficient way to do these things, meaning that they allow you to lift the most weight and they, they uh, produce the least amount of wear and tear on your joints because of the lack of extraneous movement during these, during these movements, right, joints because of the lack of extraneous movement during these, during these movements, right? So is your technique close enough, right? In other words, are you not causing any issues that are that are leaving weight off the bar?

Nick Delgadillo: 18:44

Second thing is um, are you compliant? Uh, and that's probably even more important than form and nutrition, anything else is are you actually doing the program like a program and are you actually showing up? So if you go on your training log and you've got a month's work of worth of a training scheduled and you've missed two or three workouts in that month, I would say you're not compliant. I would say that that the first step is like okay, in this case, let's take a little bit of a reset and let's make sure we don't miss a workout for X amount of time and see what happens. That may, in and of itself, take care of the problem for you.

Nick Delgadillo: 19:12

So it's form, it's compliance, and then the third thing is recovery. Am I doing the things that I need to do outside of the gym? And the answer may be yes or no for each of these things. So the next step in that self-assessment is what do I do? Do I get compliant? Do I get my form checked? Do I meet up with a coach and fix that issue? And if it's a recovery issue, then okay, what do I need to do from a nutrition standpoint? Because you're not going to be able to uh, effectively progress and really like with any of your goals if you don't have at least the nutrition side of it, uh, taken care of. And when I say taken care of, it's just like we've been saying, it's like get a handle on it and then start making progress towards optimizing. Yeah, we're dealing with physiology, we're dealing with bodies and we're dealing with improving structural and metabolic adaptations, and that requires a level of attention to your nutrition situation that may be a little bit uncomfortable and you've got to be moving towards that all the time.

Philip Pape: 20:10

Yeah, everything you said is it provides a great framework to kind of check off the boxes and in priority, uh order, the form and the technique. I can't stress, re-stress what you just said as to how important that is, not to the extent that you prevent trying to progress in your lifts, cause that's a whole other excuse people make, like oh, I'm looking at my form but that I mean I'm not a starting strength coach, I'm a nutrition coach.

Philip Pape: 20:35

But I do provide form checks and a lot of it is based on what I've learned from starting strength and I'll tell you, somebody who's been lifting for 20 years can still have pretty bad form until they get it checked against the proper biomechanics and bar path and all of that and you can fix it very quickly within a couple sessions. I went and saw Cody and Nino here in Connecticut after applying starting strength on my own and I'm the type of guy man that reads the book. You know three times highlights it, take notes. I did all the exercises from the pictures. You know, empty bar, everything, and still I had a ton of stuff that had to get fixed and that's great. That's why you need that third-party perspective and happy promoting starting strength for that purpose, cause there's a lot of great guys and gals out there that can do that. So getting that will help you progress more efficiently with less injury.

Philip Pape: 21:20

We'll feel better for your joints and actually do the program you mentioned doing the program where if somebody is doing these things, so let's say they got their form checked, they got their, they're being consistent in the gym and their recovery is unchanged. Let's call it. Is there a sense of uh, when we talk about stalling out right People? When they stall because they they went in for a session, expected it to progress and it didn't. On a weekly basis, let's say, for intermediate programming, what's your normal recommendation? What do you look at? Once all these things are checked off. That makes sense.

Nick Delgadillo: 21:54

Yes, my goal as a coach is to not have anybody stall or fail. So I think, if you're paying attention, I think if you are well, it's always a good idea to be anticipating issues right. And again, if we're thinking of just handling processes well, handling systems well, you need to be anticipating issues right. And again, if we're thinking of like, just handling processes well, handling systems well, you need to be ahead of problems. You can't be reactive, you have to be proactive. So a good strength coach will do that. A good strength coach will be proactive and not let you get to the point where you're pushing at the limit because there's multiple things going on. Part of it is like, you know, it's like the stress the stress is going up, but your recovery ability is going up and you're kind of reaching all these inflection points at the same time. So, in a situation where you have lots of variables that are being controlled, the failure point, it represents a situation where you have not accounted for certain things and now you've got some potentially uncontrolled variables that you have to deal with. So I don't want to. I don't want to get there, in addition to the psychological problems that come along with like failing, especially with something like a squat it's, it's, it's too much. It's too much to at one time to deal with, right? So I want to be proactive. I want to make programming changes, not early, but proactively, while at the same time making programming changes reluctantly. So that's kind of the way I think about it the programming changes should be proactive, but they should be reluctant. So I'm not changing programs just because, because what we're doing is working, I am changing programs ahead of when I think there's going to be a problem. Because if I'm looking at a lifetime of training, even if I have a client or a member for two years, I'm looking at the long game, and this week of training or this session represents a very small chunk of the next two years of training. So I would rather have success, I would rather have progress, even if that means slowing down a little bit, if that means that we're going to be successful for another three months, another another year, another two years. You know what I'm saying.

Nick Delgadillo: 23:58

So, um, so yeah, as soon as, as soon as I and, by the way, the way I'm doing it is I'm looking at at the bar speed, I'm looking at what's happening under the bar, along with the things that the lifters reporting right. So if they're starting to feel aches and pains, they're starting to feel like they're getting, they're having trouble going to sleep at night, we're going to. We're going to talk about nutrition, we're going to talk about sleep, we're going to have all these discussions about recovery factors. And if, if I'm satisfied that there's nothing that they can do or that they're willing to do right. So that's two different things there's nothing they can do or they're willing to do in order to fix that situation, then we'll make a programming adjustment and it's going to be a small adjustment. It might be taking a light day on a squat, it might be progressing the training early into intermediate programming because we can spread stress out rather than having these large doses of stress multiple times throughout the week. So, yeah, first thing is like because I probably didn't screw up the loading, I probably didn't screw up the rest times or anything like that.

Nick Delgadillo: 24:55

As a coach, I've been doing this for a while, so usually it's something that the lifter is doing outside of the gym that's causing problems. So we're going to run the assessment, see what's going on, see if we can make any adjustments there and then, if not, we'll make a programming adjustment. The lifter may very well just not want to continue doing the things that they need to do outside the gym. That's okay, like that's cool. There's going to be lifts that you can continue to drive up. There's going to be lists that are going to have to take a little bit of a backseat, and that's on me to to make it work for them, right, while at the same time doing like the Jedi mind trick coach stuff in the background to try to get them more compliant, more to what they need for their own good, right. So yeah, I don't know if I've answered your question, but-.

Philip Pape: 25:36

Yeah, no, you're always answering the question. There's no. We go on tangents here that are great, and the fact that your immediate answer was well, you basically shouldn't miss reps. I mean, let's just simplify it, you shouldn't miss reps and if you did, there's some reason for it, and we try to anticipate those reasons, like if, then what is the strategy? Again, same thing, like I think, with nutrition, is you know things are going to happen and you know your life looks a certain way, so let's account for that, and it may not be perfect and, like you say, you may not things, and you're just going to accept the trade-off. But you've talked about on other shows being undernourished versus overtrained. You've kind of addressed the undernourished piece. Have you seen people get overtrained or overreach at this level?

Nick Delgadillo: 26:20

No, I don't think that's actually the thing. It's under-recovered for sure. I mean, your body can do amazing things. So I think the idea that someone training for five months is over-training is not the deal. That's not happening. A guy who's been training for two to three years, who's squatting 500 plus, pressing near 300 pounds, benching near 400 pounds and deadlifting 600 plus yes, that guy can overdo it Absolutely. So it's like people at that level.

Nick Delgadillo: 26:49

My job as a coach is almost to hold them back. Um and and hold them back. It's like the wrong, the wrong word, but like I think you understand what I say. It's like like manage their stress, right, literally manage their stress. For almost everybody else, my job is to figure out how to help them manage their relationship with the high stress. So that doesn't always work out, because this is like, like I said at the beginning, is really hard work, right, so, but that again, that's okay. So, no, it's not overstressing, it's under recovering is the way to think about it. So we can either address that through better recovery habits outside of the gym, but then you have all these things that we've talked about in terms of lifestyle. Stuff doesn't always work out. So it's like what can I get out of the trainee in order to help themselves? Along with, what small changes do I need to make to the program at this point in order to continue making it work for them? So it's just going to be slower progress, right, and that's just the reality of the situation.

Philip Pape: 27:51

Yeah, yeah, no-transcript burned out, that's kind of colloquial. But more specifically, uh, things like tendonitis, right, like physical, what might seem like an overreach injury, it could be a form issue, it could be many things could be things outside the gym, we know, and given your programs to produce some sort of it's intended to produce some sort of output, do you switch priorities? Do you manage that in a certain way and get back to it? I know it's a huge topic, but shout out to Dustin Lambert he's a host of Working Weights LLC and I wanted to pass that question along to you because he wanted to know you know, how do you manage that? Things like tendinopathy?

Nick Delgadillo: 28:26

Yeah, okay, yeah, great question. So first thing is and this is something I missed talking about originally, but the novice phase. So, as you're running through the novice program, you have one objective, you have one goal and that's to get stronger. Because you're doing this with the realization that getting stronger will improve all of your physical attributes. It'll improve your health in various ways, right. It'll improve your blood sugar, your metabolic panel, all these things. It'll just improve your physical existence, right. So there's no discussion, there's no need to do anything other than just get strong during the novice phase. That's not the case once you are moving into intermediate and definitely when you're moving into advanced programming. It's not that you have to have this deep discussion about goals, but at the point that the novice program starts to slow down, it's time to start thinking about and, as Andy Baker says, declaring a goal. You have to have a goal in mind because it orients your training, it keeps you focused and you can have an intelligent discussion with yourself or with your coach about how what you're doing fits into that goal, because lifting in and of itself is not a worthy goal for most people, especially when it gets hard because all of a sudden you're waiting. It's like is it worthwhile? Why am I doing this? I'm going to go to hot yoga instead, because that's like easier and more fun, but still hard, you know. So what is the goal? What do you want to do?

Nick Delgadillo: 29:54

I've actually advised people to find another hobby. Like lifting is not, like you're very strong, but lifting is driving you insane. Like you need to go find a physical hobby where you can use your strength and see how much progress you've made. Um, because you, being in your garage gym by yourself driving yourself crazy over, like missing this, this 410 pound rack pull as a woman is nuts. Like don't do that. You're, you're, you're driving yourself crazy, right? So anyway, that's a, that's a sidetrack, but anyway, the answer to the question is you have to know, as a coach, what your lifters goal is at that point, and, as a lifter, you have to know what your goal is, and then you have to decide that continuing to strength train and drive the weight up on the lifts is going to get you to that goal, and that's where a good coach can help you.

Nick Delgadillo: 30:45

So, in the context, so the question was about tendinopathy or some kind of an overuse injury or something like that. I almost always default to assuming that it's an inefficiency issue. It's a technique issue. So and you can almost like pinpoint it's like if somebody's knee hurts at a certain point, you're like, okay, well, yeah you're, you're knee sliding at the bottom of the squat, their hip flexor hurts. Uh, yeah, you're slamming into the bottom of your squat, their elbow starts to hurt. On the bench press, for example, yeah, you're doing something with the squat grip, you're collapsing at the bottom of the press, right? So these are these kind of like common injuries that are, yeah, common overuse injuries that people get, and sometimes they'll blame recovery, which may be true, but a lot of times it's just that they're doing something in the gym to cause that to happen, or outside of the gym also. So I would assume one of those things first.

Nick Delgadillo: 31:36

So first thing to do is check technique. If there's an obvious technique error that's occurring, fix that first and then see if it resolves. If that doesn't fix it or you can't identify a technique error, then the next thing to do especially with tendon stuff, tendonitis, you know any, any tendinopathy is to not reflexively deload the bar, because all you're doing is like there's a threshold right and there's a threshold for pain and there's a threshold for the tissue and all you're doing is just kind of hovering back and forth or at that threshold and it never gets better, or it gets better very, very slowly, uh, and you're just in pain the whole time. Right? So the key to doing this and shout out to will morris for for opening my eyes to this many, many years ago the key to doing this is to stay heavy and keep driving the weight up. And then you have to figure out how to do that, right. So, through pause, like let's just take a knee pain in a squat, for example, somebody develops a knee tendonitis.

Nick Delgadillo: 32:34

So fix technique first. That doesn't work. Okay, let's figure out where in the squat does it hurt. So maybe you slow down and you keep the bar as heavy as you can, but you do tempo work instead of just normal squats. Or you do paused work, right. So you pause just right before the, the, the, the knee's going to hurt, and then you hold it there for two or three seconds and then you stand back up. But the key to that is to load it as heavy as you can tolerate, rather than the typical approach was like okay, we're going to keep squatting, because squats are a great exercise and we're going to take 50 pounds or a hundred pounds off the bar and then run it back up. It doesn't actually work Like you have to. The stress recovery adaptation deal applies to injuries as well, and you have to drive healing. You have to make it heal, not let it heal. That's a quote from Rip, which is awesome. Right, you have to make it heal, not let it heal.

Philip Pape: 33:21

That's a quote from Rip, which is awesome right, you have to make it heal, not let it heal. Yeah, that's a great concept. I've worked with John Patrizzo on some of my own things because I had rotator cuff surgery and it is so true that sometimes you just need a tweak here or there. But actually going heavy, you often surprise yourself when you're like you know, actually it doesn't hurt and it feels great and I'm getting stronger despite the injury. You're like you know, actually it doesn't hurt and it feels great and I'm getting stronger despite the injury. It's a whole mind shift. Speaking of Jedi mind tricks, it's like it makes you realize that there's power in what you talked about to drive healing and use the tissue and break up scar tissue and all the fun stuff. What about the more extreme case where somebody has had an injury that got to the point of of surgery? Is is just a function of get the surgery recover, come back to it, or is there more to it?

Nick Delgadillo: 34:04

yeah, come back to it, but come back to it gradually and slowly, right so, you're yeah, anytime you have you have a situation like that. First of all, you know, depending on the injury, uh, there are some things that you might not be able to do or that are not a good idea, right so. And then also, the other part of it is the the timeline for when it's a good idea to start again. So, you know, when I'm dealing with with somebody who's in a situation like that, I'll ask for advice. I'll ask Patrizzo or Will or Nick D'Agostino or Rory or one of these, one of these physical therapists for their opinion. Make sure that the lifter has at least had a discussion with their orthopedic surgeon about what they intend to do and at what point. Right, so you at least get their opinion. So it has to be up to the lifter whether or not they're going to follow the guidelines that the surgeon sets or recommends, or disregard them.

Nick Delgadillo: 34:59

Now, in my experience, most reasonable orthopedic surgeons are in favor of people getting back to lifting pretty early. So that's, that's good news. In practice, like when they send them off to physical therapy, that actually doesn't occur. Uh, but either way, that's kind of a separate discussion so you won't get too much uh, uh pushback from, from, uh, from orthopedic surgeons. In my experience at this point about people going in and doing stuff like this, it's just like you want to have a reasonable expectation of when it's a good idea and they may say and this is a thing that's happened, I've heard people say you won't be able to lift that amount of weight in a year for over a shoulder surgery, like a Mumford procedure, and it's like dude, that's just not true. But that's okay, like if, if, if. That's just something you're saying, like you're not saying don't lift for a year, you're saying that's how long it's going to take. All right, it's going to take two and a half months.

Nick Delgadillo: 35:50

So, anyway, but there are some injuries, some. There are some some procedures that need're cleared. We're good to go. We're going to start training. Um, it's the, the. My general approach is going to be to get range of motion back and then start loading Right. So, and range of motion may be no weight, maybe a little bit of weight. It may be just like a wooden dowel or a PVC pipe. Um, it may be like. Ripito has this excellent video on shoulder rehab where we're using the rings. You know he's using the rings and showing you?

Nick Delgadillo: 36:24

Yes, it's good, fantastic stuff, right so, and that's the same, that's the same concept Range of motion first and then, and then loading and I've used that protocol at least three times now with people coming back from shoulder surgery, and it works. It works phenomenally well. Like people go to their follow-up appointments and their doctors are just surprised by how well they're doing, right. So, yeah, that's the general concept. It's it's range of motion first and then loading after, right?

Nick Delgadillo: 36:51

So the main thing to understand, though, is that, because these lifts are, are, um, they're, they're totally natural movements, right, so, it's, it's just you're moving your body through normal ranges of motion, through normal joint angles, um, you're able to use them as the tool to rehab effectively. So you don't have to, you don't necessarily have to modify anything other than maybe, like range of motion, loading, but you can basically just take people through the squat progression or the deadlift progression might have to be a rack pull rather than a deadlift, um, you might have to press off of pins or something like that bench press off of pins, but you just take the fundamental movement and you use that to rehab people, and you know, as you know, that's what John, that's what John does, and that's the good physical therapists who are associated with us do Uh and it works great good physical therapists who are associated with us do, and it works great, yeah.

Philip Pape: 37:48

And I guess the final thought about this is is there an anatomical situation, or multiple that could occur that would prevent somebody from doing a main lift like the overhead press? When we're talking about shoulders, there's something I just learned about the type three acromion, which is like a very hook, like acromion that where you could have much more easy friction on the rotator cuff.

Nick Delgadillo: 38:06

Right.

Philip Pape: 38:07

Would something like that require alterations? And if you say this is like outside your scope because it's more of a medical thing, I understand.

Nick Delgadillo: 38:13

No, it definitely is outside of my scope. But I'm pretty confident in assessing whether or not I can proceed with somebody. And, uh, you know, the way I look at it is if, if I can get the person to move unweighted through the complete range of motion without causing them pain or severe discomfort, they're good to go Right. Um, so yeah, I think in the instance of, like, a hooked acromion, they're going to experience pain when they put their arm up over their head Right, and they'll be like, oh, okay, we let's. Uh, maybe that's not a good idea, we'll come back to it and I don't like I don't need to send them off to an x-ray or MRI or anything. It's like, okay, we're just not going to do that. Uh, let's go to the bench press. But I know, okay, look, if I can't get your Probably full range of motion bench, not a great idea. So we're going to do some partial, partial benching and go pretty, go as heavy as we can without compromising the stability of the shoulder and putting them in a in like an extreme range of motion, and I'm totally comfortable with that. I'm also thinking, okay, it might be a challenge to get them under the bar in the squat. So it's like, let's try low bar. And if you, if you get under there, and it's just like you gotta tell me if it hurts, and I'll be like, okay, we'll try high bar, if that works, you can do it without any pain, great, all right. But then even high bar hurts. So we're gonna go to a Mars bar, we're gonna go to a safety squat bar, right, and then I just know that that's gonna be the deal with them, and then we're gonna drive the hell out of the deadlift, right, and we're going to make the deadlift kind of the main thing.

Nick Delgadillo: 39:39

So, as a coach, I have all the tools that I need in order to know whether or not somebody can, can, can do something or not, just based off of really based off of the teaching methods that that, that Ripto, starting strength, have developed, and they're they're super, super useful as assessment tools as well. It's just, it's just kind of almost common sense If something hurts, like if somebody comes in and tells you I got a bad shoulder, and you start putting them through something like, oh, that really hurts, I believe them and I'm going to say, okay, well, let's adjust it or skip it, and then we'll come back to it. Right, if I have an actual diagnosis from somebody and they tell me, like, whenever people say I can't do something, like I want to see, right, I want to like just put your arm up over your head real quick. And if they just like throw it up there, I'm like, well, let's look. And I won't dismiss anybody. I'll say, hey, come over here, let's take this wooden dowel, let's run it up the rack and tell me how it feels.

Nick Delgadillo: 40:32

And then you know, I'm kind, the minute this starts to hurt, we'll stop and we'll do something else. So don't, don't worry about it, I just want to see. And then that tends to work out pretty well. But you know, if somebody does this and they go like this, like all right, we're going to or something from a physician, an orthopedic surgeon, or something I'm going to ask, I'm going to ask people, I'll ask Rupert Till, or I'll ask Will, or I'll ask somebody like, hey, what do you think about this? And just just see what they say. So we have enough resources now that I don't have to. I'm not in the in the dark by myself, right.

Philip Pape: 41:23

So it's a good combination of common sense, experience, yeah, finding a way to train despite what's going on, I mean and I had, I used a harness for one arm, deadlifts with a sling back when I was recovering Cause I was just so I had cabin fever of not doing deadlifts, you know.

Tony: 41:32

My name is Tony. I'm a strength lifter in my forties. Thank you to Phil and his wits and weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 42:16

Actually speaking of that. That brings me back to the statement you made earlier about finding a goal to orient your training, to focus yourself. It seems like there's a small percentage of people who actually do love lifting for its own sake. Is that a problem? You just love doing it for its own sake? I know you said you think everybody should have a goal. That's not a problem at all, those are the easiest people to work with. Okay, yeah, yeah.

Nick Delgadillo: 42:38

Yeah, because I don't have to convince you of anything. Right, it's like you're, you're down and you love lifting, you love feeling heavy weights, you love grinding through reps, you love hitting those, uh, those, those PRS. Um, again, those are the people that usually I need to, um, I need to, uh, put the brakes on, put the brakes on them Right, yeah, cause they'll cause they'll do too much.

Nick Delgadillo: 42:56

So, yeah, those are, but those people are easy. I love coaches that will tout and present their strongest and most successful athletes, people who are competing at the highest levels, and show them off as like, essentially, you didn't create that that person would be successful, no matter who they're working with. And I've, I've, I've been lucky to work with people like that, and I've, I've, as I think is like an honest assessment. It's like what did I actually do? It's like, you know, I actually just I actually told you, hey, don't do that, that's a bad idea. Like, do this instead, chill out a little bit, slow down, and and you're, you're essentially like keeping those people from being their their own, their own worst enemy.

Nick Delgadillo: 43:40

But they're going to be successful because they're driven, they're motivated, they have, they have exactly their goal in mind and they're going to do whatever it takes to make it happen Right. So, um, it's for them. It's more about like, helping them think about things in an intelligent way rather than like just just, uh, screwing themselves up, cause it's hard for people who are super high performers like that to look beyond, like what's in front of them, um, so so you gotta, you gotta, keep that, that perspective in in there for them. Um, but, dude, training, training people who, who are uh, who are super motivated and super uh, who are athletic and are, um, very strong. That's, that's easy, man.

Philip Pape: 44:17

That's all you gotta do is not screw them up yeah, and you alluded to the. I think you call it something like the high performance coach bias or something that bias where like high performance? Um, you know, I wonder about this. This makes me think of, like you and your, your history of lifting. Um, do you work regularly with a coach yourself and have you had, like, parts of your life that have been super stressful where you had to massively adapt your training?

Nick Delgadillo: 44:41

Oh, absolutely, yeah, Uh, I don't, I don't have, I don't use a coach now. Um, will Will Morris was my coach for two years and I hired and he was actually the first coach I uh I actually ever worked with. So I'm uh, I'm very much I think I think you mentioned it very much like a figured out myself kind of kind of dude. Um, so I picked up the book through well, I picked up the videos in the book through CrossFit when Rip was the barbell guy for CrossFit and then started doing it myself, started doing it with my clients and then went to a camp a three lift camp it was squat, bench, deadlift with a starting strength coach and then quickly learned that I was doing everything wrong and then I had been coaching for a while then. So I went back and just like fixed everything, um, and then I went and did the certification. But in that whole time I've the only coaching I have received myself was at that camp and then at the, at the starting strength seminar that I went and certified in 2011. So, other than like just being around rip or being around other coaches when we're lifting together and they'll like say something, you know, give me some feedback.

Nick Delgadillo: 45:48

But, yeah, my first actual coaching relationship as a lifter was with Will, after I injured my back. So I had a really really severe back injury. This would have been 2022, I believe. Really severe back injury. This would have been 2022, I believe. And uh, yeah, it, uh, it knocked me on my ass pretty bad. I was, uh, I was in bed for a while. I was on a Walker for or not a Walker on a cane for I think two months. Um and um, yeah, talking to Will afterwards, he thought I was uh going to have to go have, uh, some kind of a surgery on my on my low back. So, yeah, it was pretty severe and then he coached me through that. I was convinced at the time that it would take me, that I would never be like back to normal, so to speak. But uh, three months later I was, I was training again. Um, four months later I was back on like a novice linear progression. Uh, a year later I had uh, or not even. A year later, I think it was like seven, seven months later, I had uh, rack pulled 500 pounds, which was uh, which which you know I thought would would. I really thought would never happen again, like based on how I felt, but yeah, so I would say, to answer your question, that was a pretty life-changing event for me, because it's one of those things that makes you realize how shitty your lifestyle is and reorients your priorities. So, yeah, a lot came of that in terms of training and how I approach training and how I think about training.

Nick Delgadillo: 47:20

Up until that point it was very much like a lift heavy, even if things were pretty insane during that time period because it was like lockdowns and I stopped flying. So I was driving all over the country in a car, in a little tiny car. I was driving a Nissan 370Z and I was at the time I was like a little tiny car, I was driving a Nissan 370Z and I was I'm a at the time I was like a 330 pound man. So that's probably what screwed up my back, cause I would like go and drive and go and drop into the gym and lift, uh, after not after sitting for hours, and then, um, and then I would go do jujitsu stuff and, uh, not take care of myself. I wasn't eating, well, I was. I was training really inconsistently, still trying to lift as heavy as I could, and then it, it all just kind of accumulated and, and I think, just culminated in that, in that situation. So, anyway, yeah, so that that that made me realize how important being consistent was, made me realize how important everything, especially at the age of 42, 41 at the time.

Nick Delgadillo: 48:16

Like you, you have to take care of yourself. Like you have to, you have to uh to put it, to put it as simple as possible Like you have to move, like lifting by itself is not enough. Like you gotta, you've got to move. Initially, lifting takes care of all your needs. But when you've been at it for a while, and especially if you're going to do other hard physical hobbies, like, um, I do, I, I, uh, I do a lot of Brazilian jujitsu, it's not enough. Like just going to jujitsu, just going to to lift weights three, four times a week is not enough. Like you have to intentionally uh take care of your, your joints. You gotta, you gotta move around, you gotta even just walking, whatever, like any, anything that that uh gets you moving, where I'm not sitting for six hours and then going to lift and then sitting for another three hours and then going to jujitsu, it's a terrible idea.

Philip Pape: 49:01

Yeah, yeah, those make or break moments I mean I can relate to it. I'm sure lots of folks listening can where you know, when I had back surgery, what now, four years ago and I wasn't much of a walker before that and then the thing they want you to do right Day one of you know, recovering your back is to start to walk and I significantly increased my walking and actually started to love it because of what it? You know that feedback loop of how it helped me feel and for your health and everything. And I think some people will give up and there's moments where you give up because it's too hard or because you think you can't do it. You can do again.

Philip Pape: 49:34

And that goes back to what you talked about earlier grit, persistence. It's maybe the number one driver of success. Honestly, when they do studies on even children, you know, and how, their lifelong success. So when you talk about jetty mind tricks, for example, as a coach, if somebody's listening, who has a higher propensity to give up, and we see those folks like, well, I did this, it didn't work, I got frustrated, I stopped, I moved to the next thing and you just want to shake them and be like, no, there's something on the other side, man, that you're missing out on, but it's their personality or how they're raised or conditioned. Do you have something to tell them that would help unlock that? Or like a different way, a mind trick, anything that would? I know it's a big question to get them moving forward.

Nick Delgadillo: 50:15

Yeah, that's tough. I don't know, outside of no, there's not a single thing you can say to somebody like that, and I've dealt with many people like that and it's. I mean, this is one of those situations where you become not only someone's strength coach but also their sort of therapist, right? Yes, for sure. Yeah, it happens probably in all coaching. But, uh, the yeah, man, it's just you. You, you got you got to get them to trust you.

Nick Delgadillo: 50:44

Um, you'll have lots of like sort of arguments about just random things, uh, and, and essentially what what's going on is that they're sort of their own worst enemy. Right? The difference between an individual like that versus an individual who performs at a really high level and let's set aside anybody who was genetically predisposed to be really athletic and successful, I'm talking about normal people who do really impressive things the difference is that the other person just believes that they can do it, it, and, as cheesy as that is, that sound, it's like if you, um, yeah, that's not something you can, you can uh instill in somebody. So, as as a coach, my job is just to kind of take it day by day and uh and de-conflict their own brain, like where they're just like everything is, everything's a problem, everything's the end of the world, I'm not good enough, type stuff. It's like, uh, you, just, you just find small opportunities to um, uh, and, and with some people I just ignore it, you know, that's sometimes just yeah, if they're, if they're being hard on themselves, it's just like I won't even respond, cause, cause, cause, maybe sometimes it's like they, they, that's that's how they get like the, the, the feedback, right, it's a positive feedback. So I'll just disregard, like somebody just says, oh, this, uh, I'm such a shitty squatter or something I just won't, I'll just ignore it, right, and I'll just be like great job, you know, and just just move on. Uh, looks good to me, you know, Uh, and I won't even acknowledge it. So I guess that's kind of the, the, uh, yeah, man, I don't know, there's not a single thing you can say.

Nick Delgadillo: 52:15

I will, uh, I guess, as a piece of advice, it's just like don't shortchange yourself, because whatever you believe is what's going to happen. So if, if you think that, um, you can't do something, um, why would you, why would you not try? Uh, it doesn't make any sense, like, why would you just attempt it, right? And because even even in just attempting it. Um, you can learn a lot, right? So it's not the. The fundamental problem is like looking at an end goal rather than rather than enjoying the process, and that's almost, that's almost cliche at this, cliche at this point. But it's like enjoying the process, enjoying the journey. Um, that's, that's actually not even enjoying, but just participating is what matters, right, participating in the, in that, in that process of doing something hard is profound, uh, so you can choose to just uh not participate, but uh guarantee that there's no good outcome from that.

Philip Pape: 53:06

Agree, a hundred percent certainty you will fail. Yeah, a hundred percent, right, that's good. Yeah, make the attempt. That is, that is, uh, that is a good principle of all of this. So I know we're short, I know we're almost out on time here. What's, what's exciting? You now in the world of starting, strength, going forward.

Nick Delgadillo: 53:20

Oh man, a hundred percent starting strength gyms, that that, that, that's, that's the. Yeah, it's very exciting. Um, people are really interested in this. You know rips rips been talking about uh uh on his podcast, about, uh, about gym ownership.

Philip Pape: 53:35

Yeah, he's been doing the advertisement at the beginning. I'm like cool man.

Nick Delgadillo: 53:38

Yeah, so we've got lots of people interested in owning gyms. We've got lots of passionate gym owners, We've got awesome coaches, and it's cool to be bringing starting strength to the world, like in a retail setting, in these beautiful gyms. So, yeah, it's really exciting. We've got a lot. We've learned a lot. We've got a lot, we've learned a lot. Um, we've got a lot of work to do to make this work. Uh, at scale, which you know, we're getting to that point where it's like things are going to start growing. So we're just we're going to get better at all of this stuff. So, uh, yeah, that's that. That's it, man. It's really, really exciting. It's becoming, if it's not already, it is part of the popular culture, so to speak, Like people know, people understand that strength is important. And, yeah, I feel like we've done this at exactly the right time and we intend to be the sort of the gold standard for how strength is delivered to the general public.

Philip Pape: 54:35

Yeah, man, I think it's exciting. I mean, the kernel of your ideas started like 20 years ago but you're just getting going now with really expanding and you're right about the timing. You know what would be a cool topic for your podcast would be like the culture of lifting over the decades, you know, and how, because we had the Arnold culture and right you have. You fast forward all the way. You had the CrossFit culture 10, 20 years ago and you're right, like in on podcasts and in just the general lexicon, there's way more acceptance for this.

Philip Pape: 55:03

A lot of the myths about you know, bulking and injury and all that are starting to be dispelled and it's really exciting.

Nick Delgadillo: 55:09

Yeah, hardly even have those conversations anymore. And, and you know, one of the things that we've learned from the starting train gyms is you get. You get a 58 year old woman walking in the door into a barbell gym and uh, and, and she knows that she needs to get. She doesn't know how, she doesn't know what, anything, she's never done a squat before, but all she knows is that, yeah, I need to be, I need to be strong you need to be doing it that tells you everything you need to know, right there, right, and also the kids.

Nick Delgadillo: 55:30

the kids, like I was just thinking. I've just been thinking about this recently, but the kids want to be jacked and they didn't grow up with Arnold and Dolph Lundgren and Sylvester Stallone and these action movie stars that were huge. They grew up in a different cultural environment than I did, for sure, but right now, in 2025, the teenagers want to be jacked. So that's great.

Philip Pape: 55:54

Yeah, and my daughters are starting to think about getting into it. I mean, I have a 13 and 11 year old, so I told 13 year old when she's 14, I think it's a good age to start training with daddy in the gym regularly. But make it fun, you know just make it fun. Uh, cool man. Where do you want folks to reach out to you? Do you want the podcast or website? What's the best place?

Nick Delgadillo: 56:12

IG, ig there's a few places. Yeah, my instagram is, uh, nick d, underscore ssc. Um, if you want to, if you want to check out the podcast, it's on youtube, uh, starting strength gyms youtube. Uh, rip, and I well, I mean rip, but I'm on the show. We've got the starting strength radio podcast on the starting strength youtube channel. Um, we've got a podcast at um ssgymscom. If you, uh, if you want to email me and uh, yeah, I think that. I think that pretty much covers it.

Philip Pape: 56:40

Cool man. Yeah, I'll include that, all that in the show notes, and I've gladly promote your stuff because I think it comes from a good place and very sound principles, and we're all about efficiency, engineering systems here as well, and why not use the most efficient tools and process for, you know, to get the job done? That's kind of makes a lot of sense.

Nick Delgadillo: 56:55

Thank you, man. I love efficiency too. I came from the logistics world. I love efficiency. It's my favorite thing in the world.

Philip Pape: 57:01

It's awesome. It's awesome. All right, man Well, thanks so much for agreeing to come on and having this conversation. It was a lot of fun.

Nick Delgadillo: 57:07

Absolutely. Thank you very much.

Is Fiber Useless? The Carnivore Diet Thinks So | Ep 333

Grab your FREE Nutrition 101 Guide for Body Composition to build a flexible, evidence-based approach to eating that supports your physique goals without restriction or dogma:
https://www.witsandweights.com/free/nutrition-101-guide

--

The carnivore diet community claims fiber is unnecessary, even harmful. But what does the science actually say?

Learn why fiber does far more than "keep you regular," how eliminating it affects everything from muscle building to longevity, and how to make evidence-based decisions about fiber intake for your goals.

Main Takeaways:

• Fiber produces short-chain fatty acids that reduce inflammation and enhance muscle protein synthesis

• Going zero-fiber may provide short-term symptom relief but creates long-term health risks (15-30% higher disease rates)

• The carnivore claims about fiber being "non-essential" ignore massive benefits for satiety, hormones, and gut health

• Smart approach: Address root causes of digestive issues rather than eliminating all fiber permanently

Related Episode:

• The Blue Zone Hoax (and Other Diet Myths That Won’t Make You Live Longer) | Ep 330

Timestamps:

0:01 - The fiber war (Carnivore vs. mainstream nutrition)
4:30 - What fiber actually does beyond BMs
5:51 - How fiber affects muscle building and hormone production
8:33 - The carnivore honeymoon period and what happens long-term
11:56 - Gut bacteria changes and health consequences
14:58 - Debunking carnivore claims about fiber
19:53 - 15-30% lower all-cause mortality with higher fiber
21:37 - How to optimize fiber intake
24:56 - The surprising link between gut bacteria and protein synthesis for building muscle

Why Fiber Still Matters More Than Carnivore Advocates Want to Admit

There’s a growing corner of the internet convinced that fiber is not just unnecessary, but possibly harmful. According to the carnivore crowd, removing all plant-based foods, including fiber, is the path to solving digestive issues, inflammation, fat gain, and chronic disease. The pitch is simple: meat is clean fuel, plants are toxic, and fiber is just unnecessary bulk.

But there’s a problem. That viewpoint completely ignores decades of nutritional science and a huge body of research showing fiber’s positive effects on body composition, disease prevention, satiety, gut health, and even performance.

This episode is not about fearmongering or nutrition tribalism. It’s about examining what the evidence actually says so you can decide what works best for your goals.

Why This Isn’t Just a Pooping Debate

The mainstream association between fiber and digestion (“keeps you regular”) is a fraction of the full story. Fiber influences nearly every system in the body, from inflammation to blood sugar regulation to muscle protein synthesis.

When fiber reaches your colon, your gut bacteria ferment it into short-chain fatty acids like butyrate. These aren’t just waste products. They improve insulin sensitivity, reduce systemic inflammation, support immune function, and even influence how effectively you build muscle from protein.

That’s right. Fiber could help you use protein better.

The Carnivore Honeymoon

Many folks experience initial relief on a carnivore diet, especially if they previously struggled with gas, bloating, or IBS. But this is often just symptom suppression. Cutting out all fiber might eliminate discomfort temporarily, but it doesn’t resolve the underlying root cause.

If anything, removing fiber over the long term may worsen your microbiome. Beneficial gut bacteria starve without it, and less desirable species (some linked to inflammation) start to dominate. Over time, this shift may increase the risk of chronic diseases, including cardiovascular issues and metabolic dysfunction.

But Is Fiber Essential?

Technically, no. There’s no established RDA for fiber, which is one of the talking points from the anti-fiber side. But neither are carbohydrates technically “essential,” and yet we know they’re critical for training, recovery, and body composition.

Just because you can survive without something doesn’t mean you’ll thrive.

Population studies tell us that people with the highest fiber intake (typically 25–40g per day) have a 15–30% lower risk of all-cause mortality than those consuming the least. Those are massive effect sizes—especially when you consider how easy it is to include fiber-rich foods in a flexible diet.

Practical Reasons to Eat More Fiber

• Satiety: Soluble fiber forms a gel in your stomach, slowing digestion and helping you feel fuller with fewer calories. This is a huge win during fat loss phases.

• Blood sugar control: That same gel also slows glucose absorption, reducing spikes and crashes in energy.

• GLP-1 production: Fiber naturally increases this hormone (the same one targeted by Ozempic), which helps regulate appetite.

• Hormone health: Research links higher fiber diets to better testosterone levels in men and more stable hormone profiles in women.

• Muscle growth: Fiber supports the gut bacteria that help regulate insulin sensitivity in muscle tissue, which can improve muscle protein synthesis.

Reintroducing Fiber After Carnivore

If you’re coming off carnivore or just dealing with gut issues, fiber doesn’t need to be reintroduced all at once. Start small. Pick a single low-FODMAP, high-fiber food (like oats or fruit) and give it time. Monitor your response. Then try another.

This method not only helps rebuild your microbiome but also reveals which foods actually cause issues and which don’t. It's the opposite of restriction. It’s about expanding your diet intelligently.

If you find over time that you can’t tolerate any sources of fiber whatsoever (and I mean after reintroducing dozens of foods slowly and systematically), then yes, you might be one of the rare exceptions. But the default should be inclusion, not exclusion.

Final Thoughts

The idea that all fiber is bad, or that carnivore is the default human diet, isn’t supported by anthropological or scientific evidence. It's based on anecdotes and short-term benefits that ignore long-term consequences.

Fiber may not be sexy, but it works. It’s a quiet performer that supports your gut, your metabolism, your hormones, and your gains in the gym. And it does all that while making your diet more flexible, not less.

You don’t need to moralize food. You don’t need to obsess over fiber. But you probably shouldn’t ignore it.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

The carnivore diet community has declared war on fiber. They claim it's completely unnecessary, even harmful, that humans evolved to thrive on meat alone and plants are just making us sick. Meanwhile, mainstream nutrition science treats fiber as one of the most important dietary components for health and longevity. So someone has to be wrong. Here Today, we're cutting through the noise with actual data. You'll discover what fiber really does in your body beyond keeping you regular, why eliminating it might be sabotaging your goals, and how to make an evidence-based decision about fiber that's right for your situation.

Philip Pape: 0:49

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're going to settle one of the most heated debates in nutrition Do you actually need fiber, or is it just an outdated piece of dogma from the plant lovers? The carnivore movement is growing really fast, and I think this is an important topic, because people are claiming that eliminating all plants, including fiber, has transformed their health, and they may not say you need to eliminate fiber, but they may say it's no big deal to eliminate it. And then, on the flip side, we have decades, decades of research that link fiber intake to everything from weight management to disease prevention, to improved gut health, which happens to be linked closely with a lot of these positive outcomes. And what bothers me about this debate is that both sides are making claims without looking at or describing the complete picture of what fiber does to your body. And of course, I lean more heavily on criticizing the carnivore camp because they're just outright dismissing evidence. But sometimes the other camps will go a little bit overboard on why we want fiber or maybe they'll miss parts of the picture. So today, with this episode, I want to examine the evidence, the biological mechanisms in our body, and then figure out what approach makes sense for you, because you may need more or less fiber and you will thrive on a certain level for your goals. Before we break down that controversy, if you will just want a simple approach to your nutrition that is flexible, that doesn't cut things out but rather includes the things you need, that sets the right calorie and macro goals, fat loss, muscle building phases, without any hype, without any claims, without any restriction, just practical strategies, download my free nutrition one-on-one guide. This has a focus on flexible dieting and body composition. It's a roadmap to build something sustainable, something that you can live with and enjoy while still getting your results. It's just simple no fluff. Based on the evidence. Click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free to grab your copy of my Nutrition 101 Guide for Body Composition.

Philip Pape: 2:59

Okay, so let's start with the fiber debate. What is really going on? I think it is not about fiber. I think this is really about how we approach nutrition decisions in general. Do we make choices based on short-term feelings and I mean feeling in the objective way, like how you feel, or the anecdotal short-term results, short-term being as little as a few weeks or month, but as long as one to two years in some cases? Or do we look at longer-term data five, 10, 20 years, lifetime data? Do we consider the isolated effects? Or do we think about how everything connects, because our bodies are guess what a system?

Philip Pape: 3:36

Fiber itself, in fact, touches almost every aspect of your health and physique in ways that you might not even realize. That even I'm learning more and more about. It's fascinating your ability to build muscle, to lose fat, to maintain energy, to be fuller, to prevent disease and have long-term health yes, longevity. All of this is influenced by what's happening in your gut gut health. Now, this is not a gut health episode per se, but you are massively changing what's going on down there when you eliminate fiber, and it takes a while for that to happen, and we don't have a lot of research that shows all of the negative effects that are probably going to be realized down the road. We do have research on all the positive outcomes from including it. So, just to make an assumption, there's probably an opposite effect when you get rid of something that helps. We'll see, we'll see. That's part of the conversation we're going to get to today.

Philip Pape: 4:30

The carnivore folks are going to tell you that the fact that fiber is so impactful on everything in your body is exactly why it works to eliminate it. They're going to say you eliminate the problematic component, you eliminate your problems. But let's talk about what fiber actually does, because most people are thinking of fiber first and foremost as like the scrub brush Sorry to be gross. It cleans you out, right, keep things moving, bms, all that jazz but that's maybe like 20% 10 to 20% of what's really happening when you eat fiber, and this is what I used to believe too, that it was just for being regular. But it's a lot, lot more than that when you consume fiber, it travels through your digestive system unchanged until it reaches your colon and then something remarkable, something fascinating, happens.

Philip Pape: 5:15

The bacteria there that are living in your gut and you have trillions of bacteria they use that fiber as fuel to produce compounds. Those compounds are short chain fatty acids. And these aren't just waste products, right? People say, oh, they're waste products of your digestion. They are molecules that go into your bloodstream, they travel throughout your body and they have an impact on your inflammation, on your immune function, even on how your muscle tissue responds to protein responds to protein. Yeah, fiber intake can potentially affect your muscle building and I've worked with a lot of lifters who have strength trained for many years.

Philip Pape: 5:51

A lot of them went on carnivore because they couldn't quite figure out how to control their body fat, their belly fat, all that stuff. And we gradually reintroduced plants and a more diverse diet and their gains started to take off like they hadn't in a long time. Part of it was carbohydrates, for sure. Part of it was fiber, and it all worked just fine. In fact, they felt better, they had better outcomes. But I don't want to anecdotally say well, just because you feel better in the moment, that means it works. That is not what I want to say, because that's exactly the claim carnivore folks make, and it's misleading, because short-term results may belie long-term results.

Philip Pape: 6:25

There's more, though, beyond this right Soluble fiber. That's the one that creates like a gel in your substance. It's like a gel-like substance in your stomach. That's what slows down the absorption of nutrients, and so that is what's really awesome for blood sugar control. People talk about eating balanced meals, managing your blood sugar. It does that, but not only that. It dramatically increases your satiety signals, helping you feel satisfied with fewer calories. Now you might say, well, protein does that, and I have lots of meat in my diet. Great, I agree. Like increasing your protein in your diet does help tremendously with satiety, but fiber also has a huge impact on satiety, to a level where, when you're going after some aggressive fat loss, for example, it could be the difference between being able to sustain your diet and not being able to really stick with it for long enough.

Philip Pape: 7:15

There's also something really fascinating about fiber in today's context. You guys heard of GLP-1, the hormone targeted by the weight loss drugs like Ozembic. Well, guess what fiber does? It increases the production of GLP-1, the hormone targeted by the weight loss drugs like Ozembic. Well, guess what fiber does? It increases the production of GLP-1. It's kind of like a small micro, natural version of what people are paying all this money for, not to the same dosage, absolutely it's not going to have the same degree of impact. Let's be nuanced about it. But just by eating plants like eating what you should be eating a diverse diet you're going to actually improve your production of GLP-1. By the way, you know what else can improve. It Is strength training. This is not about strength training, but I always have to slip that in.

Philip Pape: 7:53

Another thing is related to hormones. We've seen that fibers link to higher testosterone levels in men, better hormone balance in women and the cascading effect of all of that, like affecting your sleep quality and your mood and your cognitive function. It all occurs through the gut brain axis. You know some people call the gut the second brain. That is what we are talking about. That's why I said initially fibers interwoven in almost everything that's going on. So when someone says is just about pooping, they're missing like 80%, 90% of what fiber actually does, and to kind of frame that, then what does it do?

Philip Pape: 8:33

We actually want to talk about what happens when you get rid of it when you go, say, full carnivore and you eliminate fiber completely. And this is where we have to be careful, because the effects build on each other over time and they're not all obvious at first. And, to be fair, we don't have a lot of long-term studies about the negative effects, of the potential negative effects of these diets long-term. We just haven't studied them long enough, like we've studied other diets, like, for example, the Mediterranean diet, which is chock full of fiber. And guess what? People have incredible long-term longevity outcomes on that diet. They're high in carbs too, by the way. So there's this honeymoon period.

Philip Pape: 9:11

We have to address this because this is where, like, for example, the YouTube hater comments every time I talk about how great carbs are and they say, no, I went carnivore and everything got solved and you don't need fiber. Well, many people initially do feel better when they eliminate fiber, especially if they had digestive issues. It's almost like a confirmation bias the bloating stops, the gas goes away and they're like yeah, see, fiber plants, those were the problem. But what's really happening is that you're eliminating the immediate symptoms, but you're not addressing the underlying cause. How do I know this? Well, I know this because I've worked with so many clients to reintroduce fiber-containing foods and carbs without the issues recurring, and I've said this on a previous episode you cannot use an anecdote to prove a claim, but you can use an anecdote to disprove a claim, and what I would like to disprove here by saying I've seen many people who went carnivore and eliminated their symptoms and then reintroduced plants and carbs in the right way and the symptoms did not come back.

Philip Pape: 10:16

Well, right, there disproves the claim that it was carnivore and carnivore alone that that solved the underlying root cause. No, the root cause in their case was certain foods didn't work for them, period, and we just eliminated those foods and reintroduced the rest. That's all it is. And I hope for anybody listening who's doing carnivore and, like you, know what I really miss my sandwiches, or I miss my fruit, right, or I miss my rice or my oats or anything. Man, I just had a client he knows who he's talking about he's going to laugh because I've mentioned him a few times who just started eating oats and he's like man, where has this been my whole life? It's amazing. Anyway, we've got to not make universal claims that, okay, I went on carnivore, cut out plants and fiber, therefore, and felt better. Therefore, it's because of all plants and fiber. That is a false correlation, or it's a correlation, but it's not cause and effect, it's not causality.

Philip Pape: 11:06

So let's talk about your gut bacteria. What happens here then, when you don't have the fiber in there? Well, they start starving without their fiber fuel and the beneficial species that produce, for example, anti-inflammatory compounds start to die off. Really good species of bacteria we want in our gut the kind of things that they put into probiotics and you know that you supplement with those are dying off because you're not feeding them and they get replaced by bacteria that do thrive in low fiber environments. And we've identified many of these species of bacteria and found that those tend to be more inflammatory and less beneficial. But again, it takes quite a while for this effect to accumulate. We're talking not weeks or months, but potentially years and as your microbiome shifts, certain things are going to start to weaken or break down.

Philip Pape: 11:56

You know you've heard of leaky gut. I still think the evidence is out on that being fully the way it's described. I think it's described in a colloquial way where, like, inflammatory compounds leak into your bloodstream and then you have an immune response. But there is a connectedness between your gut and your bloodstream. That is real. And when you don't have beneficial bacteria and all you have are these I'll call them harmful or less beneficial bacteria then it makes sense that this is going to accumulate over time in terms of the response on your body. So long-term is where what we have to look at. Studies that have been following people on very low fiber diets do show increased rates of cardiovascular disease, certain cancers, metabolic dysfunction, over time. We are talking about 15% to 30% increases in disease risk, based on large population studies.

Philip Pape: 12:52

And what concerns me is that the carnivore success stories or anecdotes those are all short-term. The people that comment on my YouTube videos and say you're full of it, I did carnivore, I feel great, and they've been on carnivore for two months or maybe six months or maybe a year, but it's nowhere near long enough to tell what's going on. It doesn't mean it's not a fantastic elimination diet I don't discount that that's the case to eliminate something that's causing you issues and then reintroduce, one at a time, things that don't. We just don't have good data on what happens to people who eliminate all plants for decades. And if you want to participate in a massive uncontrolled experiment and roll the dice on. Eh, maybe it won't be so bad for me, even though I know a diverse diet that includes fiber is great for me. You go right ahead and do that.

Philip Pape: 13:37

I'm just giving you the warning bells with this episode that there are long-term consequences potentially to those actions, Um, let alone the diet just not being sustainable or enjoyable. I mean, if you can only eat three foods, like a little kid, and not eat your fruits and vegetables and I'm sorry to be snarky, cause that's honestly what it amounts to Um, and be happy that way that I'd like to meet you, because the vast majority of people I've met who are in carnivore will say, yeah, they miss their ice cream or they miss their pizza or they miss, you know something, some whole foods like fruit or oatmeal or something like that. Again, I'm throwing out anecdotes too, so maybe I'm falling prey to the same problem that other people have, but again, to me, the anecdote is disproving the universal claim that carnivore is the bee's knees by saying, no, you know what? There's plenty of people that thrive on a plant-based or not plant-based, but a diverse diet. Not only that, we have good evidence, like the Mediterranean diet, for example I think I already mentioned that that show phenomenal long-term outcomes from having a diverse diet, which makes a lot of sense, and I understand the appeal to carnivore approach. It has some level of elegance and simplicity, right. It's attractive that you just eat these foods, and there are a lot of foods that many of us love, like animal products. Yeah, who doesn't love that, except vegans and vegetarians? And many people, yes, do report initial improvements, right.

Philip Pape: 14:58

But what I want to do now is analyze, or examine the arguments against fiber. The first claim is that fiber isn't essential. It isn't essential, meaning you don't have to consume it to survive, and there's no RDA. Yeah, that's technically true, that's technically true. You know what else? Carbs technically aren't essential, and yet we know there are massive benefits of carbs. And so just because they're not essential or there's not an RDA for it, doesn't mean that it is not extremely beneficial and almost necessary to have a really solid approach to your nutrition and your health.

Philip Pape: 15:32

The second claim is that fiber causes digestive problems. Well, sometimes it does, especially if you increase it too quickly or if you have underlying gut issues, or if you find certain foods that happen to have fiber inflammatory. Right, you may have IBS, you may have some other bowel condition and then, absolutely, you're gonna be more sensitive to certain types of fiber not necessarily all fiber, though. I know plenty of folks with IBS who they just have to be aware of what fiber works for them and so I think the solution here again isn't just eliminate everything and move on with your life. It's maybe eliminate and reintroduce or identify what's causing you problems. That's the second claim. You can't just say all fiber causes digestive problems.

Philip Pape: 16:15

Claim number three is that you can get everything you need from animals. This is maybe one of the worst claims of all of these, and I think this ignores just some very obvious nutritional gaps, and I don't know how you get around these except potentially with lots and lots of supplementation. But then your argument kind of falls flat, because then you're saying that you need those things. You're just going to get them from a different source. You know where's your vitamin C, your folate, your magnesium, the thousands of beneficial plant compounds that protect against cellular damage. You know that aren't necessarily listed on the nutrition label, right? Yeah, you're not going to develop scurvy, but we're not optimizing for not dying of deficiency diseases. We're optimizing for peak performance and longevity, right, the word thrive always comes to mind in this context. So that's the third claim, that, yeah, you can get everything from animal products. Not true at all. There are so many beneficial things in plants that you're probably gonna be sorry you don't have long-term, especially for the gut health.

Philip Pape: 17:12

The fourth claim is that humans evolved eating mostly meat. These ancestral arguments you know, I used to fall for them when I was back in my paleo days and people would cherry pick the anthropological evidence. It doesn't support it. Our ancestors were opportunists. They ate whatever was available, and that includes significant amounts of plant matter in most environments, just like there's no plant-only environments. I did that episode on the Blue Zone hoax and how just about every society on the planet eats a diverse diet based on what's available to them. Some may eat a lot of honey, some may eat a lot of goat's milk. It really depends. And what we evolved eating isn't necessarily optimal for modern life and modern goals. Or else you know what? You probably wouldn't be eating nearly the amount of protein you need. Let's just be honest. If you just naturally ate, you probably wouldn't have enough protein. And of course, I know what the carnivore guys are saying. They're like see, that's why you need carnivore. No, that's a false argument that we're making segment uh segment.

Philip Pape: 18:56

The next segment that I have in my notes is to talk about the uh what the research shows for studies with people eating fiber. So if you look at large long-term studies involving millions of people, there is a pattern and that is that higher fiber intake is consistently associated with lower rates of chronic disease, with better weight management, with longer lifespan. And if all the claims fall on their face, why wouldn't you just allow yourself to eat fiber which gives you more options for food? Like to me, that is the simplest argument. It's like now you've um re, you've given your permission to actually enjoy many, many more foods in your diet. If you truly and absolutely a bore, you hate all forms of carbs and plants or anything with fiber. You just absolutely hate them all and you're not willing to include them for any reason, even though it could be beneficial to get over your pickiness and train yourself to like them which you can do, by the way then I don't know what to say.

Philip Pape: 19:53

I don't know what to say that doesn't seem to strike me as the vast, vast majority of people. I think the vast majority of people have normal lives where they go to parties, they travel, they go places where the food isn't in their control and they just want to enjoy themselves, not in a hedonistic way, but in a flexible way, what we talk about here all the time. If we want to talk about specific studies, there's a 2019 meta-analysis in the Lancet. All right, a meta-analysis is a study of studies and it found that people consuming the most fiber I mentioned this, I alluded to this earlier had a 15 to 30% lower risk of death from all causes it's called all cause mortality compared to those eating the least fiber. That is a massive effect size that shows up across different populations and different study designs. You hear what I just said People consuming the most fiber had way lower risk of death than people who consumed the least fiber.

Philip Pape: 20:49

And what's most important is that the amount isn't that much. It doesn't mean you need to eat 50 grams of fiber daily. It means that most people are going to benefit from adequate fiber intake. What is adequate? Well, because there's no RDA, as the carnivore people will tell you. We've seen from, we've had to extract this from research comparing these different levels, and it suggests that it's around 25 to 40 grams, and I've used a formula before of 14 grams for every thousand calories you eat.

Philip Pape: 21:18

And now I tend to simplify. I say look, if you're a woman, go for 25. If you're a man, go for 35. You'll be golden. If you're higher than that, great, no big deal. There is such a thing as potentially too high digestively or hunger-wise. You know, you might not even be able to eat enough things like that, but for the vast majority of people their fiber is probably too low.

Philip Pape: 21:37

So what's really the point of this whole thing? The point here is not to choose extremes of anything, even how much fiber you eat. It's to optimize it for you. Optimize. Look at your situation. If you're dealing with digestive issues, you can work with a practitioner. You can work with a medical professional, functional medicine folks there's some good ones out there that work on this Nutrition coaches of course I'm going to plug my own work as well and you can address the root causes. And part of that might involve reducing or eliminating fiber temporarily, absolutely, as in elimination diet, because you may not know what you have and you need to get down to the root cause. But I will tell you what the root cause is.

Philip Pape: 22:12

Not gonna be all fiber, just eliminate fiber or eliminate plants. The goal should be to eventually include beneficial plant foods as your gut health improves and why not? That's great, that's really empowering, that's freeing, that's flexible. And when you do so, you're going to focus on fiber variety, because different types of fiber feed different bacterial species to the level of it could be beneficial to eat different types of apples, different types of oranges or whatever fruits you like, because of all the different compounds in the different species or breeds, or whatever the word is for those, because they all feed different species of bacteria. You want soluble and insoluble fibers from different plant families and guess what? You monitor how you feel and you adjust it gradually. You don't do it all at once, you do one at a time. You could do carnivore for, say, a month or two as an elimination diet. It's a great elimination diet.

Philip Pape: 23:02

And then add in something you think is very easy on your stomach, right, a fruit, for example, that has fiber, maybe it's oats, something and give it a week, give it two weeks, give it a month, give it as long as you need to evaluate. Hey, you know what? Actually, I can eat this food just fine, no issues whatsoever. Now, if you spend five years and you, one at a time, introduce every source of fiber and every single one causes you problems. I'll eat my shorts that all fiber is an issue for you, but we can never make the claim that all fiber is an issue for most people. And then, as far as wanting to include fiber, leaning into the benefits you get from it can be very helpful as a driver to do this. The satiety effects make fat loss easier, the metabolic benefits support muscle building, recovery all of it.

Philip Pape: 23:48

I'm going to give you one more thing to think about with fiber that I learned from some of the guests that I've had on and some of the latest research happening, and that is the compounds that are produced when your gut bacteria ferment fiber. Right, because, remember, it's great to eat fermented foods, but you also ferment fiber yourself in your body. The body's amazing, it really is. It can enhance get this okay the compounds produced when that happens can enhance muscle protein synthesis, mps. That's the rate at which we build muscle, because when the good bacteria, the beneficial bacteria, break down fiber, they produce something called butyrate, and the butyrate goes in your bloodstream and has been shown to improve insulin sensitivity, specifically in muscle tissue. And that means fiber isn't just supporting digestive health. It's literally helping your muscles use protein more effectively. What other great reason is there than that? For those of us who are lifting and trying to build muscle, it's not the only reason, but it's a cool one. There's also some emerging research showing that certain fiber types can increase the absorption of amino acids, right Again broken down from protein, and that improves the muscle building response to your training.

Philip Pape: 24:56

So the carnivore community's argument that you can optimize muscle growth with meat alone, I think ignores some of these pathways right that are tied to the gut, which a lot of you there might be even surprised in this episode that that is the case. I used to kind of ignore gut health, say, okay, that's a side thing over there. More people I talk to, the more I look at the literature and the more I work with clients, I realized that the pathways involved in gut health and having the right gut bacteria in your body, coming from diverse fiber consumption, produce compounds that are beneficial in many, many, many ways. And you're making this anthropological or ancestral argument. Maybe we should turn that around and say you know what? We probably thrive as humans because we can handle a variety of foods and maybe we should be eating a variety of foods for that very reason. Not necessarily these specific foods, but just diversity in general. And that's why I like looking at the complete picture at the system, rather than getting caught up in dietary dogma. Because that is what it is these diets. They are dogma. They are rigid, restrictive forms of thinking that allow for no disproof of their hypothesis whatsoever, even though the counter arguments and evidence is all around them.

Philip Pape: 26:13

So fiber is not just staying regular, it's not just preventing disease, even though those are great things Trust me, I know when I don't have enough fiber. I'm not gonna go into details but it's also a performance enhancer. It's like nature's natural performance enhancing drug right. It's a GLP-1 producer. It's great for your physique goals and I think there's a lot of mechanisms we're only beginning to understand because gut health is still in its nadir, to use a fun word. Or is nadir the right? I think that's the beginning. Now you got me thinking. Does nadir mean the peak? I meant to say fiber is in its nascent period of research? Anyway, I'm being a total grammar snob right now, forgive me.

Philip Pape: 26:52

The carnivore versus fiber debate. I don't even know why there's a debate, but I think we need more evidence-based thinking and not ideological extremes, to the point where I would say that an ideological extreme is, by definition, not evidence-based. It just has to be, because nothing is that black and white. Everything's individualized at the end anyway, right? So you can't make those types of claims.

Philip Pape: 27:16

Eliminating fiber might provide short-term relief, especially if you have digestive issues. But if I'm going to take an analogy, we've had some water issues in our house issues. But if I'm going to take an analogy, we've had some water issues in our house, right, if I have a problem in the toilet or speaking of pun intended fiber episode, or problem with the sink or whatever, if I shut the water off to the house, it's going to eliminate that issue, isn't it? But it's not fixing the root cause. I mean, that's just a simple analogy that comes to mind. So I don't think I have to reiterate the details.

Philip Pape: 27:44

But immune system, hormones, muscle building, disease risk, longevity it's all improved by having higher fiber in your diet and you don't have to choose a side. Just look at the complete picture and give yourself flexibility and figure out what works for you. That's it. Just don't be extreme, don't restrict unnecessarily. I'm trying to give you some power back here. That's where I had to go. That's a journey I had to go through.

Philip Pape: 28:05

I used to do paleo, I used to do keto and all that, and it was always like cut, cut, cut. What can't, can't, can't I eat? You don't have to do that right. Your gut bacteria have been waiting millions of years for you to feed them properly. They're way older than us. Don't starve them. Don't starve those little buggers. They need to eat. All right, all right, if you want a nutrition approach for you, just the simple steps that goes along with this to create a flexible approach that still meets your goals.

Philip Pape: 28:33

Download my free guide Nutrition 101 Guide Link in the show notes. Totally sustainable, science-based approach. It's personalizable. It doesn't tell you here's a meal plan, here's what you have to eat. No, it says let's figure this out together for you. Let's use the right tools to figure it out. Go to witsandweightscom slash free to get your free copy of the Nutrition 101 Guide. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember, when it comes to nutrition, the best approach is usually the one supported by the most evidence, not the loudest voices or dogmatic camps. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Can You Spot Reduce Belly Fat (and Other Stubborn Areas) After All? | Ep 332

Submit a question for the podcast (and get a personal reply plus a shoutout). Just go to witsandweights.com/question

--

Tired of hearing "spot reduction is impossible" while still struggling with stubborn belly fat, love handles, or other problem areas?

Spot reduction (the idea that you can target specific fat deposits through isolated exercises) has long been dismissed as physiologically impossible. Yet many of us continue desperately doing endless crunches hoping to melt away belly fat, or countless tricep exercises trying to slim our arms. 

The frustration of seeing minimal results leads many to either give up or search for increasingly exotic solutions.

So...is there a way to actually "spot reduce" after all?

Discover why the traditional approach fails and the 3 factors that actually create the results people want from spot reduction (hint: it's not targeting those areas directly).

Main Takeaways:

• Recent research suggests limited spot reduction might be possible, but it's not the solution to stubborn fat

• Stubborn areas have more alpha-2 adrenergic receptors and poor blood flow, making them resistant to fat loss

• Real "spot reduction" happens through strategic muscle building and fat loss cycles over years (not weeks or even months)

• You can't sculpt a pebble, but you can sculpt a boulder - build the foundation first

Related Episodes + Resources:

• Your Very First Cut (Lose 10-30 Pounds of Fat) | Ep 197

• The 3+3 Model of Optimal Fat Loss | Ep 326

• Grab your FREE Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint

Timestamps:

0:01 - Stubborn belly fat and "trouble areas"
4:14 - New research on limited spot reduction
6:17 - Why stubborn fat is actually stubborn
7:45 - Common mistakes when targeting problem areas
10:50 - The real way to "spot reduce"
11:34 - Factor #1: Building the foundation (you can't sculpt a pebble)
14:00 - Factor #2: Strategic fat loss phases vs crash dieting
16:19 - Factor #3: Time and patience (the 90% psychology factor)
18:22 - Why muscle building is the game changer
20:13 - How your body becomes a fat-burning system

The Truth About Spot Reduction and Stubborn Belly Fat

You've probably heard it for years: “You can’t spot reduce fat.” Do a thousand crunches and you’ll still have belly fat. Hit the triceps hard and the back of your arms will stay soft. But what if the truth is a little more nuanced? What if you can achieve what most people want from spot reduction… just not in the way you’ve been told?

In this episode, we dig into real-world experiences from two listeners and break down the science behind why certain areas seem to hold fat forever. More importantly, we talk about what actually works if you want to reveal definition in those areas.

What Spot Reduction Gets Wrong

Let’s get this out of the way: traditional spot reduction (the idea that working a muscle will burn the fat sitting on top of it) doesn’t really work. Yes, a 2023 study did show that ab training combined with cardio resulted in slightly more fat loss from the trunk area. But it was a very small difference, not enough to explain the kind of stubborn fat issues most people are trying to solve.

Instead, what people really want is to see more definition in specific areas: the abs, the thighs, the arms. And you can absolutely do that, just not by isolating those areas through exercise alone.

The Real Problem: You're Trying to Spot Reduce Without Changing Body Composition

One listener, a 58-year-old man from the Philippines, had hit his goal weight and was happy with his muscle-to-fat ratio, but he still had a noticeable amount of lower belly fat. He didn’t want to lose more weight and started doing targeted ab exercises, hoping to trim the area. Nothing changed.

What’s going on here? There are three key possibilities:

1. Not enough ab muscle to reveal
   You can be lean, but if you haven’t built enough abdominal muscle, you won’t see much definition. This is where hypertrophy-focused ab training matters.

2. Still carrying too much fat overall
   Lower ab fat is usually the last to go, especially in men. You often have to get below 12% body fat (sometimes closer to 10%) to see this area lean out.

3. Fear of losing muscle in a cut
   With the right training, protein intake, and a smart fat loss phase, muscle loss can be minimized. This fear is valid, but it’s also solvable.

The takeaway? Changing your body composition systemically is what gets results, not just shrinking a specific area.

How Spot Reduction Does Work (Just Not the Way You Think)

Listener Aubrey, 41, has been cutting and building muscle strategically for years. She wrote in to share that, only recently, she started seeing glute definition she never had before… because her body had finally “worked its way” through the more stubborn fat stores.

She didn’t do this through special exercises. She did it by following three key principles.

1. Build a Solid Foundation of Muscle

You can’t carve detail into a pebble. But a boulder? That has potential. If you want to see shape and lines, you need something there to reveal. This means training with progressive overload, using proper volume, and consistently eating enough to support muscle growth.

Compound lifts like squats and presses go a long way, but targeted ab work or glute work with overload can help if there’s a specific aesthetic goal. The key is that this happens during phases of maintenance or surplus, not while dieting.

2. Use Strategic Fat Loss Phases

If you’ve built muscle and now want to see it, fat loss phases are the next tool. The more muscle you carry, the easier it is to get lean and look defined at a higher scale weight. And each cut can reveal a bit more, especially in those stubborn areas.

Just don’t crash diet. Controlled deficits, high protein, consistent resistance training, and strategic use of diet breaks are what preserve muscle and keep fat loss sustainable.

3. Give It Time

This is the part most people ignore. Aubrey has been doing this for over four years. Every year, she’s gotten leaner, stronger, and more defined, at a higher body weight. That’s what recomposition looks like. It’s not a six-week fix. It’s a multi-year project of cycles: build muscle, lose fat, maintain. Repeat.

And with each cycle, your body gets better at partitioning nutrients, managing insulin, burning fat, and building muscle. This is why those areas that used to be stubborn finally start leaning out.

So Can You Spot Reduce?

Not in the traditional sense. But you can absolutely look leaner and more defined in specific areas by:

• Building muscle that you can eventually reveal

• Getting lean enough through smart fat loss phases

• Repeating the process over time and accepting that this isn’t a sprint

If you’ve been training, eating reasonably well, and feel stuck with one particular area, ask yourself: Have I built enough muscle to see anything there? Have I gotten lean enough to reveal it? Have I given my body enough time to respond?

If not, now you know what to do.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You've been told for years that spot reduction is impossible. You can't do crunches to lose belly fat, tricep exercises to lose arm fat or squats to lose thigh fat period. But what if there's actually a way to spot reduce, just not how most people think? Today we're examining what's really happening when people finally lose stubborn fat after years of struggle, why the traditional approach fails and the three factors that actually create the results people want from spot reduction. The answer isn't in targeting those areas directly. So what is the answer? Tune in to find out.

Philip Pape: 0:46

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're tackling one of the most persistent questions, or myths, in the fitness world, and that is can you actually target stubborn fat areas? Now, the short answer is no, at least not how most people think Traditional spot reduction, where you work one area and the fat just melts off. The long answer, though, reveals a different approach that does deliver the results people want from spot reduction, but without the frustration that most people experience. And before we get into this, this episode is actually based on two different listener questions that I've smushed together into one topic and if you want to send your question in and get it featured on the podcast whether it's training, nutrition, mindset, building your physique, any of it just go to witsandweightscom slash question and you'll get a personal response by me by email and potentially get it featured on the show and a shout out if you'd like. And again, that's witsandweightscom slash question. So that's what we're doing today. We're going to share two listener questions. They're almost stories about these listeners that capture what most people experience with stubborn body fat, and you might definitely relate to this.

Philip Pape: 2:04

The first one is a 58 year old guy from the Philippines, uh, who wrote, quote I've been training for a little over six months now and I've achieved both my target weight and target muscle to fat ratio. I've even developed visible muscles on my upper abs. My problem is that my lower abs still protrude with a healthy dose of belly fat. I can't seem to get rid of it. And then he continued. He said I don't want to lose more weight as I'm happy where I am, so I'm hesitant to go on extended calorie deficits. I'm also concerned that I may lose muscle if I go on extended calorie deficits To try to lose the belly fat. I started to do targeted exercises leg lifts, sit-ups, side pulls, russian twists to try to focus on losing the belly fat, with no visible progress. And I picked out this one in particular because here's a person who has done a lot of the right things. He's achieved the weight he wanted and the muscle mass and body comp, except he has a stubborn area of belly fat, and men and women relate to this in different ways, but definitely starts to occur more and more as we get older. So if this sounds familiar, I think that's because it captures what most of us experience.

Philip Pape: 3:08

The other listener and I'm going to address both all of this together in one topic. The other listener is Aubrey, who is 41, and she wrote me on Instagram. She said, quote I would love to hear your take on trouble areas leaning out more with each cut phase. I think it has to do with continued leanness from adding muscle and maintenance through the year and then just having less fat overall, and then when I go to cut, it impacts my trouble areas. It takes time, so I don't think people understand that things can keep improving and body shape can change for the better as years pass on. And then she added, quote I am in a cut now and I'm seeing muscle definition in my butt that I know I've never had before. It's like my body said okay, she's mastered the leanness up top, let's start hacking away the lower. Finally, now, these are two completely different experiences, different stories, but they all link together in a very amazing way that we're going to address today and kind of look at what the key is to all of this. And you want to listen to the whole episode because we're going to take you through the story of what the research says, what's actually going on, what approach most people take and why it doesn't work, and then the actual way to do it. So you're going to want to listen all the way through if you want to understand the full context and what to do for your own situation.

Philip Pape: 4:14

So let's address the elephant in the room, and that is that there is recent research suggesting some limited spot reduction might be possible. Ooh, shocker. You didn't know. I'd say that, did you. There was a study in 2023, I think it was actually reviewed in the May 2020, may or March, I forget which one 2024 issue of Body by Science by Bill Campbell that I had the pleasure of contributing to as an expert contributor and it talked about ab training, but I want to talk about the study itself. The study found that combining ab exercises with cardio led to slightly more trunk fat loss over 10 weeks, and it's a very tiny bit, but it's interesting Now why this misses.

Philip Pape: 4:57

The point is that even if you can achieve some small amount of localized fat loss, it's just not enough to solve the real problem people have with those stubborn areas, and that's why our first listener question he was doing everything and still, even after targeting those areas, it didn't seem to work. And the real issue is not that you need to target them directly. The issue is most people are missing the requirements for accessing stubborn fat stores in the first place. What do I mean? All right, let's get a little sciencey here, because here's what's happening when you have stubborn fat. Okay and I'm just using that word a little bit loosely, but we all know what it means it's the areas of fat that seem to be the last to come off, or maybe they don't even seem to be able to come off. They're just like if we lost all the fat in our body, somehow the stubborn fat's still going to be there. Well, what it is is they have more what's called alpha-2 adrenergic receptors that inhibit fat breakdown, and they have poor blood flow. This is very reminiscent of visceral fat around our organs, for example, and this makes them resistant to fat loss, even in a calorie deficit. All right, there's a big caveat on that, because we're gonna talk about ultimately what it takes. A calorie deficit is gonna be part of the solution, potentially, but they are more resistant during a calorie deficit.

Philip Pape: 6:17

So for men, it's typically the lower abs and the love handles I feel like. For me it's my butt, so that's just me. For women, it's my butt, so that's just me. For women, it's often the hips, the thighs, the lower body. But and this is the big but pun intended fat loss is still primarily systemic. It's system-wide. Your body mobilizes fat from throughout your body, based on your overall energy balance, your hormones, your muscle mass and your genetics.

Philip Pape: 6:47

And the reason people get obsessed with spot reduction is they're looking for a shortcut around the fundamental requirements of fat loss. They want to keep their current body composition and just target the problem area. And I'm not calling you out to our 58-year-old caller. He didn't want me to use his name, so all cool. I'm not trying to call you out as if you're not-old caller. He didn't want me to use his name, so all cool. I'm not trying to call you out as if you're not trying to do the right thing.

Philip Pape: 7:08

But it may require more fat loss than you believe and that's one of the issues. What have I told you if there actually is a way to spot reduce? But it requires a different approach that works with your physiology and it takes time. It's not just a one-and-done thing. So let's talk about. Let's talk about the different approaches. All right, our 50 year old, 58 year old guy from the Philippines is experiencing exactly what happens when you try to spot reduce without addressing the underlying issues. He's addressed a lot of them, so congrats, kudos to him. For sure, he is a far ahead of where most people are right now. So congrats on that big win to be celebrated.

Philip Pape: 7:45

He's achieved his target weight is muscle to fat ratio, but he called in, or he wrote in with lower belly fat that he's frustrated with. He doesn't want to lose more weight and he's trying to target the fat, but the problem is he may not have enough muscle mass in his core to reveal the definition, even at his current body fat level. That's one thing, because if you don't train your abs properly and that's a key word, properly, we'll get to that. They won't be developed enough to show, even when you're lean right. And that's independent of genetic differences, because we all have different. Not everybody has a six-pack under there, some have, you know, eight packs, four packs, different kind of shapes.

Philip Pape: 8:22

So that's the first thing. He may not have enough muscle mass. Some people think you do. You said you're at your ideal muscle-to-fat ratio, but usually it's a lifelong process and you want to keep adding muscle. Second, his overall body fat might still be too high, and that's probably actually where I'd go first in his case, potentially, knowing that he has trained for a while If you're brand new, I would definitely lean more toward the muscle side of the equation. But his body fat might be too high for lower ab definition, even if his total muscle to fat ratio looks good from his perspective. Lower abs, the lower section of the abs, are typically the last place that men lose fat and you usually have to get down to something like 10% to 12% body fat or lower to see them clearly.

Philip Pape: 9:03

So again, not wanting to lose weight piece of it comes into here with his fears because then we have to understand okay, well, how do we get to that level of leanness if it's not strictly through losing more weight or fat? The third thing here is he's afraid of losing muscle in a deficit, but I think this fear could be preventing him from doing what might be necessary. So if the reason you and I say you, because I wish I could use your name but if the reason he doesn't want to lose more weight is because he thinks he'll lose muscle, well that's an easy problem, right. A strategic cut with the proper training to hold on to muscle, with enough protein, that's an easy problem. We do it all the time. That's the very definition of a fat loss phase, when done properly, is you're going to lose very little to no muscle. So if that's the only thing holding you back, then that's great, because you're gonna be good if you're training, eating protein, doing all the right things, right. And so I think overall, this actually represents maybe the most common mistake people make is trying to solve a body composition problem without changing body composition. And again, I know he's saying he wants to improve body composition but without losing weight. And you can do that. You can do that by building more muscle and then losing fat. That's what I alluded to already. But the targeted exercises that he's doing, um, yeah, they might build some muscle, done properly, but they're not going to spot reduce the fat. And I did allude to training abs, and of course you want to do that, but it's not going to be the only thing you know. Plus, you have to be progressively overloading and actually building that muscle, which we have to confirm that you're doing. So that's that's the big uh takeaway in terms of why things don't work. It's if your your body fat's not low enough, you haven't had enough muscle or you're afraid to lose weight to reveal the muscle because of other reasons, like in this case, um, losing muscle in a deficit, uh, but that's, and that's that's the one. That's one listener.

Philip Pape: 10:50

Now let's look at Aubrey, our other listener, who wrote in because she's discovered a, the real way to spot, reduce, so. So in her case she's not asked, calling in at a frustration. She actually wants to share the fact that this can work and I think that's that's awesome. Um, and she's done it by improving body composition systemically over time. That's how you actually get the results people want, but it's through a different mechanism. So let's talk about the um. I'll say three factors for doing this, because this is really the. The money here is what do you do? So the first factor is you have to have a foundation. I've said before and I stole this from someone years ago you can't sculpt a pebble, but you can sculpt a boulder, and you need to become that boulder first that you can then sculpt down.

Philip Pape: 11:34

Aubrey mentioned adding muscle and maintenance through the year. She said that in her quote in her message to me adding muscle in maintenance through the year and I think this is crucial because you can't reveal what isn't there. If you want to find abs, you have to build abs. If you want a shapely lower body, you have to build those muscles. There's nothing to show otherwise, right. And this means training your target areas like any other muscle group, with progressive overload, sufficient volume and consistency. And, yes, you're going to hit your abs, like, let's say, abs. Specifically, you're going to hit your abs with big compound lifts. But then you also want to have some special ab work in there once or twice a week, like, like they say, 10 to 20 hard sets per week per major muscle group, using exercises that allow you to add weight or reps over time, like a a loaded ab crunch, for example, or if you did hanging leg raises, it's increasing your reps.

Philip Pape: 12:24

But here's the key you have to do this during periods where you're eating enough to support muscle growth. You cannot build muscle in an aggressive deficit or even a moderate deficit. Unless you're totally new to this, you're not going to build much muscle, and the amount of muscle we want to get this lean shredded look that I think you guys are going for when we talk about spot reduction does take at least one or two cycles of truly building muscle. And Aubrey mentioned, you know, doing it at maintenance, like being in maintenance throughout most of the year. That's a great strategy If you're willing to actually gain weight and go into a surplus. That could be even more optimal short term, especially if you're on the younger end of the training spectrum younger as in, newer to training, not young in age. End of the training spectrum. Younger as in, newer to training, not young in age. So that's the first foundation is building the foundation becoming the big granite of muscle that you can sculpt down rather than being a skinny pebble that has nowhere to go?

Philip Pape: 13:18

Factor two is then strategic fat loss phases, not crash dieting, not cutting super aggressively. Again, going back to Aubrey, she talks about each cut phase impacting her trouble areas more each time she does it and I've seen that myself. I've seen that with clients, and that is you have to actually lose enough fat to reach those stubborn areas and the first time you do a fat loss phase you just may not have enough muscle and then you may not get lean enough. But first time you do a fat loss phase you just may not have enough muscle and then you may not get lean enough. But each time you add muscle it's easier to get lean in terms of you don't necessarily have to cut down to as low of a body weight to get lean. So more muscle, cut fat, more muscle, cut fat. That's why we like bulking and cutting generally as an optimal way to do this.

Philip Pape: 14:00

Again, for most men, lower abs they're not going to show until you're around 10 to 12% body fat. I don't like living at that percentage. I usually get down around 14% when I'm pretty lean, like for the summer, and I have a little bit of, not a little bit. My abs are showing but they're not like super cut because I don't want to, I don't want to diet down to 10 to 12%. Generally. Some clients I have love living around you know 8% body fat as men, or and to the point where some of them are even afraid to gain weight, and that's a separate issue.

Philip Pape: 14:29

For women, lower body definition is going to require getting quite lean. I'm just sorry to say it, to tell you the truth, but it's usually somewhere around 16 to 20% body fat, or potentially lower for women. And again, percentage body fat doesn't directly correlate to scale weight. It correlates to how much muscle and fat you have. So of course, if you have more muscle, you can be at the same percent body fat at a higher scale weight. And that's what Aubrey, and that's what we're trying to get at here.

Philip Pape: 14:57

It's easier, each cut phase, each bulk, each cut to get there, and that means accepting that you might need to lose more total weight than you initially wanted the first time and maybe less the next time and the time after that, not because the scale number matters, because that's what it takes to access those fat stores. Listen, your body's going to run out of places to get fat and then it's eventually going to go to that trouble area and it may just require getting a lot more lean than you've ever been. It may also let's be honest about it require getting more lean than you want to be, or that is super sustainable for you, and part of that is genetics. It's just genetics, but that's okay. Anybody can do it.

Philip Pape: 15:33

However, so it's a very strategic thing and to me, fat loss needs to be done intelligently, moderately and keeping the protein high, continuing to strength train, planning in diet breaks or refeeds all of the things we talk about a lot on this show and recently have covered in other episodes, like the three plus three model of optimal fat loss. You can go find that one. I did an episode quite a while ago called your very first cut, which you can search in the feed. So that's. The second factor is doing strategic fat loss, knowing that in between you're going to be building muscle and kind of going back and forth. And then the final factor here maybe this is the biggest one for all of you is time and patience, and I know you're rolling your eyes like oh, here he goes again, but you know how much of this is just psychology. 90% of it is psychology.

Philip Pape: 16:19

Now, aubrey's been at this for four and a half years. Okay, I've been at this for four or five years four or five years myself and I have a long way to go to where I could really be at the place where I feel like super lean and it's easier and I can carry a lot more body weight. But if I drew a graph for you up and down with body fat, with weight, with all the things you would see it trending toward being leaner at a higher body weight and therefore being easier to see my abs or get the fat off my butt or whatever. It doesn't mean that I always live that way. I live many times with more weight on my body because I love to lift and make progress and feel great as well. Aubrey said quote things can keep improving and body shape can change for the better as years pass on, and that is what most people miss.

Philip Pape: 17:02

Real physique transformation happens through multiple cycles of building muscle and losing fat over years, not weeks or months. I'm sorry. I know you want the quick fix. I know you think I've got to lose the weight. It's not about that. It's about building muscle and losing fat. You have to be training that is a non-negotiable and then each time you go through one of these cycles, you build muscle for, in my opinion, six to 12 months and then you cut for maybe eight to 16 weeks right, that's two to four months. And then you maintain for a period. That's improving your body composition at a fundamental level and being able to see more of your definition the more you do it. So the muscle you build. How many times do we have to talk on the show about the benefits? But it does, it's everything. It raises your metabolism, it improves your insulin sensitivity, it changes how your body partitions nutrients right, and that's what muscle gets you. Fat loss phases will get easier and more effective because you have more of this metabolically active, what we call expensive muscle tissue. Right, and you notice. I didn't even get to things like specific exercises, because at the end of the day, if you simply do basic strength training with progressive overload, you get stronger, you build muscle generally systemically over your body and then you use nutrition to cut fat, you probably can get to the leanness you want doing that alone.

Philip Pape: 18:22

Some of you, because of genetics or because of a look you're going for, will definitely want to specialize and train certain muscle groups more. You just will. There are phenomena that occur with the body and how it stretches skin, how it stretches the layer of fat on top of those stubborn areas that we're not even getting into here because it's in the weeds, it's in the noise, it's very individual and genetically specific, no-transcript. The one little trick with some of these areas like the abs is, for some people, they do need to have loaded ab work, whether that's hanging, leg raises, reverse crunches, ab wheel rollouts, what's the other thing? You know, loaded ab crunches, like there are plenty of ways to load your abs and make sure to focus on the area that you care most about developing, but all you're doing is you're potentially increasing the muscle mass a little bit, a little bit, like we're doing is you're potentially increasing the muscle mass a little bit, a little bit, like we're talking. You know, millimeters or centimeters, like it depends on which one we're talking about where the real game changer is going to be how lean you get. That's just it, I'm sorry to say, but if you have overall more muscle mass, you could be overall more lean at a higher body weight, and that's what makes it really cool over time.

Philip Pape: 19:37

So I think what people really want from spot reduction is to see definition and shape in specific areas, and the secret? The secret is that you can achieve this, but not by targeting those areas directly. So when you build muscles systematically, when you lose fat strategically over time sometimes years, I'm sorry to say it, it just is going to take time you create what looks and feels like spot reduction. Your trouble areas will eventually lean out, not because you targeted them, but because you've built the foundation that allows your body to access those fat stores effectively. Because your body is a system, it is integrated.

Philip Pape: 20:13

When you build muscle, you're not just building that specific muscle, you're improving the entire metabolic profile of your body. When you lose fat, you're not just losing fat from one area. You can't even control that. You're changing your hormonal environment, your insulin sensitivity, your body's entire energy management system. And that's why Aubrey, for example, can see changes in her fourth year. She couldn't see in her first year. She hasn't just lost fat, she's systemically upgraded her whole body's operating system, for lack of a better phrase.

Philip Pape: 20:41

Every training session, every meal, every recovery period is programming your body for that long-term lifestyle, as whatever phrase works for you athlete, lifter, healthy, person and when you understand this, then you're going to stop looking for the quick fix, the shortcut, which isn't going to work anyway. It's just not going to work, and then you can start building that foundation and that's the lasting change you're going for. It's going to take time and the irony is, when you stop trying to spot reduce and you start focusing on body composition, your trouble areas are going to start responding, not because you're targeting them, but because you've created the conditions to access those fat stores and that's really all it is. So can you spot reduce belly fat? No, not in the traditional sense of targeting directly, but you can absolutely achieve the results you want from spot reduction through building muscle and losing fat over time. For our 58-year-old guy from the Philippines, this might mean accepting he needs to either build more muscle or yes, lose more fat, or do both in strategic cycles.

Philip Pape: 21:38

For Aubrey, she's discovered the real secret here patience and consistency over the years, not quick fixes over weeks. Your stubborn fat areas are not stubborn because you need better exercises okay, it's not that. They're stubborn because you have to give yourself the time and patience to build muscle and lose fat. That's it. Many people haven't even taken time to build muscle and if you're one of those, listening everything else I talk in this episode, almost doesn't matter until you do that, all right. If you have any questions about building muscle, losing fat, applying any of these strategies we talked about, or you have follow-up questions about specifics, submit them at witsandweightscom slash question. You'll get a personal response from me and we'll potentially feature it on the show, if it makes sense. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your best physique is not ever built using shortcuts. It is engineered through patience, consistency and an understanding that real transformation takes time. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Is THIS the Ideal Protein Bar for Lifters and Athletes? | Ep 331

Join Physique University (free for 2 weeks) to get a custom, flexible nutrition plan so you can enjoy foods that feel good!

–

How do you know what’s actually in your protein bar? Could sweet potato be the secret ingredient that changes the game?

I had a conversation with Tony and Lori, the husband-and-wife team behind Muscle Up Bars, the protein bars born from a dream and built for real performance. We talk about what sets their bars apart in a crowded market: a clean ingredient list, balanced macros, and the power of simplicity. 

Whether you’re a CrossFitter, busy parent, or just someone trying to fuel smarter, this will help you understand what to look for in your supplements and why quality matters.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:29 – Dreaming the first recipe
5:00 – Why sweet potato is the star
9:11 – Breaking down the sugar-to-protein ratio
13:16 – Why texture makes it taste real
20:32 – Disrupting the market with simplicity
23:02 – When and how people use the bars
26:28 – Scaling up without selling out
39:15 – Handwritten notes and customer love

Episode resources:

• Website: muscleupbars.com

• Instagram: @muscleupbars 

How to Choose a Protein Bar That Actually Supports Your Training Goals

Protein bars are everywhere, and for good reason. They’re convenient, portable, and (sometimes) tasty. But if you’re trying to build muscle, improve body composition, or just hit your protein targets consistently, not every bar is going to be the best tool for the job. Some are closer to candy. Others lean ultra-high protein but sacrifice taste and digestibility. So how do you choose the ones that actually support your training goals?

In this episode of Wits & Weights, I talked with two athletes-turned-entrepreneurs who created a bar they couldn’t find in stores… one focused on quality protein, balanced macros, and real-food ingredients. While their approach may not be for everyone, it sparked a broader conversation about how to evaluate the bars you keep in your pantry.

Why the Protein to Sugar Ratio Still Matters

If you’re using a bar to support muscle building or recovery, protein needs to be the star. One quick metric I like to use: does it have at least twice as much protein as sugar?

For example, the Muscle Up Bar we discussed has 15g protein and 7g sugar, which fits that guideline nicely. This isn’t about demonizing sugar. Some quick carbs can be helpful depending on the context. But if a “protein” bar has more sugar than protein, it may not be the most efficient tool for fueling your goals.

Whole Food Ingredients Aren’t Better, But They May Feel Better

Some folks prefer bars with minimal ingredients because they tend to sit better digestively, especially pre-workout. In this case, the base is made with things like sweet potato, almond flour, and coconut nectar, which gives it a subtly sweet, almost cookie-dough-like texture.

That doesn’t mean bars with sugar alcohols or artificial flavors are bad. I still eat plenty of those, and they can absolutely fit into a flexible diet. But if you’ve ever noticed that some bars leave you feeling bloated or overly full, it might be worth experimenting with options that lean more toward real-food ingredients and simpler macros.

Why Whey Protein Still Reigns Supreme

From a quality standpoint, whey protein concentrate remains one of the best options for building muscle. It’s complete, easily digested, and high in leucine. Some bars blend multiple protein sources to increase the grams per serving, which can work well depending on the goal, but it’s worth paying attention to how your body responds to different protein types.

Some brands also lean heavily on collagen or plant-based sources. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s something to be aware of if you’re counting on the bar as a primary source of complete protein.

Texture, Flavor, and the “Real Food” Experience

One thing that stood out in this conversation was how much texture can impact enjoyment and satiety. If a bar feels like dense taffy or melts into a chalky paste, it might be hard to stick with consistently. A more natural texture, like the soft, slightly grainy bite you get from almond flour and cacao nibs, can make it feel closer to eating real food than a supplement.

And yes, flavor still matters. You don’t need every bar to taste like birthday cake, but if it’s a chore to eat, it’s not going to become a regular part of your routine.

When (and Why) to Use Protein Bars

Here’s how I like to use protein bars in a flexible diet:

• As a pre-workout snack when I’m short on time

• As a midday option when I’m behind on protein

• As a dessert replacement when I want something sweet but still want to hit my macros

• Occasionally split in half to keep calories lower while staying full

Could you get the same protein from whole foods? Sure. But sometimes convenience wins. The key is knowing what you’re getting and how it fits into your overall nutrition plan.

Ingredient Preferences Are Personal, So Let the Goals Guide You

Some people prefer to avoid artificial sweeteners, colors, or gums. Others don’t mind them at all, especially if it means more flavor or lower calories. There’s no one right answer here. But it’s worth knowing what’s in your food, how it affects you, and whether it supports your goals.

If a bar keeps you full, helps you hit your protein, and you enjoy it enough to eat it regularly, that’s a win.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're trying to build muscle and build that strong, lean physique, protein bars can be a hugely convenient tool in your nutrition arsenal. But there are tons of options on the market, so how do you choose ones that actually support your training goals as well as your values? Today I'm talking to two athletes who turned their quest for better nutrition, a better protein bar, into a business. You'll discover the science behind protein quality and absorption, why thoughtful ingredients and sources matter for performance, and how to evaluate macro ratios to align with your fitness goals. You're going to walk away understanding how to make more informed choices about the protein supplements you use to fuel your training and recovery and recovery. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today's going to be a lot of fun because we are discussing protein bars and the supplementation industry. We're talking ingredients, macros, quality, flavor, how to choose all of it, and my guests today are Tony and Lori, the founders of Muscle Up Bars right here in Connecticut.

Philip Pape: 1:14

I am a personal consumer of their bars I just crushed one chocolate chip right before this interview and I've been a customer since pretty much, I think the first year they launched, and Tony is a certified financial planner by day. He's a dedicated CrossFit athlete, an Olympic lifter in his free time, and Lori is a doctor of audiology who's also a certified personal trainer, or was a certified personal trainer, is currently a coach, and together they've created protein bars designed with athletes and lifters in mind that are focused on the optimal macro ratios, I'll say, but also, and maybe more importantly, quality ingredients, and, from my personal experience, they're very delicious and my wife and kids agree as well. So today we're going to get into that. We're going to discuss the science behind effective protein supplements, how to evaluate ingredient quality when you're looking at a label because this is the bar for people who read labels and some tips to incorporate convenient foods like protein bars into your diet. Enough talking, tony, lori. Welcome to the show.

Tony: 2:11

Thank you.

Philip Pape: 2:12

Thanks for having us. All right, I hope I got everything right in the intro, but I just want to let people get to know you and really get to the root of the story behind your success and the bar that you create. What made you think way back when, when we can make a better protein bar there's so many on the market, but we can do something different.

Tony: 2:29

Well, I think it all started out of frustration. I'm a little bit picky about what I eat and I like to read labels, even going back a number of years. So I couldn't find a bar that I liked because I was reading the labels and I was finding either too much sugar or too many chemicals or a lot of weird ingredients. So you know, I just knew I had this, this frustration about finding one that I liked. So I literally one night had a dream that I was making protein bars in my kitchen with the ingredients I had in my pantry sweet potatoes, protein powder, chocolate chips, almond flour. And I woke up and I said, lori, I just had a very strange dream. I was making protein bars and I saw all the ingredients and she said that's weird.

Lori: 3:20

Yeah.

Tony: 3:21

I said, yeah, I don't know why I'm having this dream, but I couldn't get the idea out of my head and I literally saw all the ingredients and I saw myself making it. So after about a month of thinking about it, I said you know what? I'm just going to try this. And I tried the recipe that I dreamt of, with the sweet potatoes and the whey powder and the almond flour, and threw some bars together and they tasted delicious. I brought them to our local CrossFit gym for people to try and they said these are great. Where'd you get them? I said, well, I made them at home and that's really how it started. And I thought well, you know, if I'm frustrated, other people must be frustrated, and I know I can make a good bar. I made one first try. Maybe we can turn this into a little business. And we didn't really have any aspirations about becoming a big brand or anything. We just really I want bars for myself that I was comfortable eating.

Philip Pape: 4:13

Yeah, so I'm curious more about that, because I don't know if you're naturally impulsive and just the type of person just does something, or this was very different for you. Start there, because that's the first question.

Tony: 4:24

I don't know. Am I impulsive? I do. I like to do things. I like to cook, like to tinker in the kitchen, I like to do projects. I'm a bit of a do-it-yourselfer and I do like to cook. So I think all that together just spurred me on and gave me the inspiration to give it a try. Why not try it?

Philip Pape: 4:44

So I mean sweet potato. We can get into some of the ingredients that are fairly unique and, I'll say, unusual. As far as protein bars go, and some of the things I love about it, Was there like one thing you said look, no protein bar that I ever eat has this. Was it the taste? Was it the ingredients? What was it for you?

Lori: 5:00

Well, most of the protein bars that were out there, you know they, oh, this is great protein. And we'd look at the back and it would really be a candy bar. There would be more sugar than protein. At the time we were really involved in CrossFit and sweet potato and protein was just what we ate. So we didn't see any other bars out there that had sweet potato and we thought this is a great binder, a great carb. I mean, it's nature's best carbohydrate, I think. So there was nothing like that and we decided that we wanted to always have at least twice as much protein than sugar, and if there was any sugar, it was going to come from something natural. But yeah, there just wasn't anything out there like that. And bad ingredients, bad taste a lot of sugar.

Tony: 5:52

I don't know if we're trying to be different with the sweet potato. It was just the magic ingredient that allowed us to have some natural sweetness without adding a lot of sugar and without having to use sugar substitutes, without having to use sugar alcohols. A lot of bars have sugar alcohols. In fact, when we, when we found a manufacturer to make the bars for us because we couldn't do mass production in our little kitchen we told them what we wanted and they came back with us to us with a recipe that had all kinds of fake sweeteners in it and we said what is this stuff? Why? Why is this in here? Do we have to have this? They said, no, you don't have to have it. It's just the way we do things.

Tony: 6:31

It was for everybody else yeah and we said laurie kept saying, well, take this out, take that out. We went through probably a dozen different recipes, eliminating, yeah, ingredients that the manufacturer wanted us to put in but we didn't want, and we ended up with something that's just very simple, minimal number of ingredients. It's not super sweet, which I think most consumers are used to, it's just naturally lightly sweet, and that's what we wanted. It's not a dessert, it's a protein bar.

Philip Pape: 7:04

Oh yeah, but you can eat this for dessert, let me tell you. Let me tell you Okay. So let me give my personal thing, cause this is just so the listener knows. I invited Tony and Lori on. I love the protein bars. They always send these really sweet, like personal notes with their packages. There was actually a little I don't know if it was a manufacturing defect or somebody had opened the package, it doesn't matter and they sent me a new box because there was one small bar in there that was a little bit off and that's like the kind of stuff that good business owners do.

Philip Pape: 7:33

But I wanted to bring you on because literally, the bar itself is just so tasty. It does have a great sweetness. My kids will say you know, it tastes like real food. It doesn't taste chemically and I'll admit I have. I have six different brands of protein bars in my pantry and I'm sure a lot of your customers do, because they.

Philip Pape: 7:51

It depends on what you're looking for. Are you trying to get super protein dense? Are you trying to have you know, very sugary candy bar style? You know we do it right, but but this is the only one that I. I eat it and I'm like wow, it's, it's like, it's like you just made it in your kitchen and it reminds me you talked about the sweet potato. I used to be big into paleo. Now I have more flexible diet but and CrossFit as well. I was in CrossFit and I. One of my favorite recipes was a pumpkin pie type custard. We did them in these ramekins and pumpkin puree was the base. It wasn't the sugary pumpkin pie mix, it was just pumpkin puree and it's like my wife makes butternut squash, doesn't have to add much to it, not even add butter, and it just has a great taste. So I'm just kind of promoting you guys and the bar for making that choice, even if it was unintentional. And why don't more? Why don't more bars have these kinds of ingredients? Is it the taste profile? Is it cheaper?

Lori: 8:42

they didn't even have it. Yeah, they had to order it in for us. You know here this was this manufacturer that all they do was make bars.

Tony: 8:50

So they had never heard of it. They had to source it for us specifically. As far as we know, no one else uses it at this point. I don't know why, because to us it just seemed to make a lot of sense. I'm always staying on top of what's new in the bar market. As a matter of fact, I have a couple of our competitor bars right here.

Philip Pape: 9:07

Oh, I see David there. I know you posted about David, yeah, yeah, and even today.

Tony: 9:11

I mean, these are relatively new to the marketplace and if you look at the ingredients list they are loaded with all kinds of different weird sweeteners.

Lori: 9:20

And the artificial colors too, which is just crazy, you would think, with all the talk, now this one is even has a laxative warning on the back.

Tony: 9:28

Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't want to eat before you work out hey, what was popular when yours came out?

Philip Pape: 9:33

it was quest bars, right wasn't that rx bars and quest has like definitely gives people some digestive issues right.

Tony: 9:40

Rx bars were interesting because they didn't have the sugar alcohol. But when you look at the sugar to protein ratio, they have more sugar than protein yeah, yeah, you're right.

Philip Pape: 9:51

They call them a protein. That's the other thing is you call it a protein bar. It's got to have at least at least 10 grams of protein, in my opinion, if it has more sugar than protein.

Tony: 9:59

To me that's a candy bar, it's not a protein bar. So we want, we wanted our ratio to be at least twice as much protein as sugar, and the sugar has to be natural and just a light, light amount just to make it a pleasant bar to eat, not a candy bar or dessert.

Philip Pape: 10:13

Yeah, and I would hope you know again those listening. We talk about shifting your diet toward mostly whole foods with some indulgences in there. You generally, in my experience, your sweet tooth gets resensitized when you're eating more fruit and when you're eating more whole foods and sweet potato, like you said. So it actually does taste, to my opinion, rather sweet in a good way, like in a good natural way, or you could eat it for dessert, just so people know. This one bar, at least what I have a chocolate chip. It's 230 calories. It's 12 grams of fat, including only three grams saturated. It is 22 grams of carbs and 3 of those are fiber, probably from the sweet potato, and maybe I think you might add some probiotics or something else that has fiber. We can talk about it. And then 7 grams of sugar, but only 4 grams added. So that's mostly from the fruit right or from the vegetable, from the sweet potato.

Tony: 11:00

Sweet potato and coconut nectar.

Philip Pape: 11:02

And coconut. Coconut nectar oh cool, yes, I used to drink that stuff and 15 grams of protein, so that, like the, I was teasing everybody. How much protein does it have? So, while there are bars that have like a lot more density of protein, I would call this a more balanced, good source of, like overall energy and that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. So, but the two to one protein to sugar ratio tell us about that. Where did that? Was that just your challenging?

Lori: 11:32

yourself versus what was out there. I, you know I had found a yogurt that was on the market um cities and they used to promote that when it was right on top. I think they ended up having to change that. Maybe someone else had copyrighted that, but it just really made me think that's a good way of doing things. We need to have at least twice as much protein than sugar. If we could have the sugar even lower, we would, but we really hate to change anything because they are super delicious and it is natural sugar when we first made the bar, my number one priority was good ingredients and clean.

Tony: 12:17

My priority wasn't a great taste, right? So I said, even if the sugar is low, if it doesn't taste great, I'm gonna eat it because it's good and it has good ingredients. Turns out they they taste great and they have good ingredients as well. But we were really trying to push the sugar down.

Philip Pape: 12:33

It's a good combo, yeah yeah, where I think most.

Tony: 12:36

most bar companies probably design their bars for taste first, because that's how consumers evaluate the bars if, if you read a bar review, they're always talking about oh, this one tastes great. But to me it's more important what are the ingredients and what are the macros? That's the taste good, but it has to have good macros first.

Lori: 12:54

They definitely do. I mean this one here is birthday cake.

Philip Pape: 13:00

Natural. Why would I want to do?

Lori: 13:01

all this working out and turn around and eat birthday cake what's?

Tony: 13:04

funny is, this one is called cake batter. They go after taste first.

Philip Pape: 13:10

And you know what's sad is. I know the difference between those flavors. That's funny.

Lori: 13:16

You talked about really eating whole foods and not having a lot of packaged things, and that was another thing. We both were so busy and on the go. You know, at the time I was running around seeing clients coaching at different gyms and you know, when you stop somewhere you're starving because you've been going all day long. What are you going to grab? If you walk in a convenience store, it's going to have all the sugar, alcohols and all that. That was another reason we just needed something.

Tony: 13:48

That was good if we had to grab and go yeah, and 100 when you're starving, I mean you're going to grab whatever you can and we had young kids that we were taking to sporting events and the kids, you know, needed something quick and you don't want to feel guilty as a parent giving your kids something that's not healthy, you know. So we have this as an option for our kids as well. And, like you said, kids it's amazing. Kids love these bars. We have kids two years old, five years old, right, and the parents have to hide the bars from their kids because the kids just love them.

Philip Pape: 14:19

That's true, and I my favorite is the chocolate chip. But they're all good, but that's just. I'm a huge chocolate fiend and just having it broken up by that occasional chip, that surprises you, You're like oh, it's so good.

Lori: 14:29

Also kind of took the philosophy, you know, like Ben and Jerry's, in regards to texture. We wanted a bar that had texture. So you know, you've got the cacao nibs, you've got the chunks of chocolate, all that. It's just like a nice little surprise each time you take a bite.

Philip Pape: 14:47

It is, it is. And again, I like people are probably listening like wow, you're going to have a whole episode about protein bars but we're going to get into some more of the ingredients and science behind it. But sometimes when you find something, it's just unique. The texture is not to be underrated. It's like how do I describe it? It's got a little bit of um I don't want to say graininess, cause that sounds bad. It's like uh. It's like uh how do I? How do I describe it? Like almost like cookie dough, a little bit texture right when there's a little bit of roughness in there and it feels good on your tongue, and then it's smooth at the same time.

Philip Pape: 15:17

You know what I mean yeah, and it sort of melts in your mouth.

Tony: 15:20

Yes, texture mouth. Yes, texture is really important when it comes to food. People don't realize, but you know, even when you're eating a meal, texture in a restaurant is very important. You want you have some crispy, some crunchy, some?

Philip Pape: 15:32

salt and sprinkle the mouthfeel from the fat, like the fat, I imagine the mct oil and some of the things in there. Give it that mouthfeel. Are there like? When we look at some of these separate things, we some of these strike me as back in the day with keto and paleo. When I see MCT oil, for example, is that bulletproof coffee right, which I don't do that anymore, but still is it a hangover from that, or is there a benefit to it?

Lori: 15:56

It is because that's how we started. We really started thinking about everything in 2015, 16. That was still really big Right. So you know that helped us kind of craft it in the beginning and then, like I said, we hate to change too much.

Tony: 16:14

It's in there. It's going to stay there, yeah.

Philip Pape: 16:17

Yeah, and then the whey protein itself, of course, that's. You know, people are generally thinking protein bar, so what does it have? And it's just whey protein and whey protein concentrate. Is there anything you look for there in terms of sourcing, in terms of how it's filtered or processed, anything like that?

Tony: 16:33

We work with again a co-packer who produces the bar for us and we do rely on them to make sure they're sourcing good, clean ingredients for us. We wanted a whey protein bar. A lot of bars will use whey protein but then supplement with other proteins egg whites or soy or pea. They try to get the protein numbers up, but correct me if I'm wrong. I believe whey is a full protein.

Philip Pape: 17:02

It's complete protein. It's the highest quality in terms of like leucine content.

Tony: 17:05

Yeah, Right, so we can maybe on our label, boost our protein gram number up by adding some supplemental proteins. But to me, what's the point?

Philip Pape: 17:15

I agree, and the sneakiest one is collagen. When they add collagen, I mean sometimes it's in the form of gelatin, which makes sense. You might even have I don't know if you have gelatin, but you don't have gelatin. No, gelatin, I mean that I can get it, I can get as a binding or whatever. But when they just add collagen to get the numbers up, I'm like, oh, collagen is like two amino acids, you know. So that's good, okay. So I mean some of the evidence is still out on whether any of that is is, um, actually correlated. I do know collagen is good for joint health and connective tissue, with its specific type, which if you don't have that type in your bar, it's still not that it's kind of useless. Go back to the sweet potato. Are there specific benefits? You like to tout about having that in there, like the fiber or the nutrients or anything like that.

Tony: 17:57

Again, we didn't put the sweet potato in.

Lori: 18:00

On purpose. On purpose because we thought it was a I know what you mean. It was in your dream.

Tony: 18:04

It was in my dream. But you know, in doing research we know that sweet potato is. It's a great carbohydrate. It has some sweetness to it, some sugar, lots of vitamins and minerals. It's just a. It's just a great overall carb and vegetable to eat. It works really well in our bar. You know, there's really no more science behind it than that.

Philip Pape: 18:25

Yeah, yeah. And you know, when I think of potatoes and sweet potatoes, there's the carb sources, the fiber, and there's also the satiety.

Lori: 18:32

So between, like, the fat and the carbs, yeah, Fun fact I don't like sweet potatoes, so I don't want people to think that the bars even taste like sweet potatoes.

Philip Pape: 18:42

True, true.

Lori: 18:43

I mean, I've had a few people that say I can taste that and I'm thinking, no, that's psychological.

Tony: 18:50

And we also go back and forth on should we be promoting the sweet potato or not? Because you have people like Louie, who don't like sweet potatoes, and say I don't want that bar because I don't want something that's going to taste like sweet potato. Interesting, yeah, so tastes like sweet potato. Uh, interesting, yeah, so it's. It's sort of a catch-22. It's, you know, adds a lot of positives to the bar but also may turn some people away, which we don't want to do. But again, it doesn't. You can, you can vouch for this you don't taste sweet potato no, you don't.

Philip Pape: 19:17

It's not like the. Uh, what is it? Larabars with the dates. Where you like, taste right yeah you know.

Philip Pape: 19:22

so if you don't like dates, you're not gonna going to like it, all right. So I know your protein sources or protein types have changed over time. I mean, how does the market drive some of your decisions? I know you mentioned the David Barr. Maybe you didn't mention it, but it was. You were showing it. I don't know if you like to mention competitors, but everybody knows, and they recently changed, I think they went from some sort of natural to artificial sweetener in there, which, again, as part of your overall diet, you can have a Diet Coke, you can have this and that, but if you're going to be pounding protein bars a lot, you may want different ingredients, especially when they don't taste great. So how does the market drive these decisions for you?

Lori: 19:58

Yeah, I'm going to be perfectly honest. I mean, for us we've kind of steadfast in trying to stay with the ingredients that we have. The more natural things are, the more expensive they are.

Philip Pape: 20:10

Yeah.

Lori: 20:13

So I think there are companies that say we want to save money and make more, so we're going to use cheaper ingredients. I mean, it's just a fact.

Tony: 20:25

I think, rather than reacting to the market, I think we're in a position where we're trying to influence the market, maybe change the market and upend the market and be a little bit of a disruptor in the bar market.

Tony: 20:32

I think we're in a position where we're trying to influence the market, maybe change the market and upend the market and be a little bit of a disruptor in the bar market. I think we've been sort of ahead of the whole make America healthy again movement. I think people are starting to catch up with us. So, rather than adjusting to what the market wants, we're trying to educate the market on what they should be eating. So we do funny little posts. We take some shots at the other bars that are out there because we read the ingredients and unfortunately we know that a lot of people don't turn the bar over and read what's on the back. They read what's on the front of the label. So we're out there trying to educate the marketplace and drag people along with us, and I think educating a marketplace is difficult and it takes a lot of time, but we're in it for the long haul.

Philip Pape: 21:15

Yeah, I love it and hopefully this podcast does its tiny piece pimple on the whale toward doing that. But yeah, so that's interesting. You met, yeah, you mentioned the mom movement and the politics of it. I just spoke to a an alcohol-free lifestyle gentleman, james Swanick uh, who probably be on the show right before, right after, this episode, and, um, he's talking about how alcohol free has is becoming more and more acceptable. Right, and I do see a healthy lifestyle and lifting weights and quality food. It's great Like that's a wonderful move direction that we're going in.

Tony: 21:48

Yeah, it is. Yeah, we haven't gone an alcohol free yet.

Philip Pape: 21:51

Well, you know, I just it's one thing at a time, you know. Whatever's important to you, all right, so like, what's your favorite way to actually incorporate these, either yourself or like your typical customer? I'm sure you post these on stories too, but how do people incorporate them in their, their diet?

Tony: 22:09

Well, again, when I started doing this and incorporate them in their diet Again, when I started doing this, I was working in an office nine to five. I'd have lunch at noon, I worked till five-ish, drive an hour home, go to the gym at six or 6.30. That's six hours since I had anything to eat and I would always stop and say I need something in my stomach before I work out and I'd go to the convenience store, the CVS, the gas station, where I'm trying to find something quick to eat and that's where my frustration just kept building. So for me, you know I eat one if I've worked all day on my way to the gym, so I have some energy to work out. Lori, you might use them a little bit differently.

Lori: 22:47

Yeah, I had one this morning driving to work. I wanted to get there early. I didn't want to spend any time. You know, um didn't have a lot of time to make breakfast, so I had her on the way to work. Once I got to work I was able to make a little more to eat.

Tony: 23:02

She didn't have one for lunch.

Lori: 23:03

I didn't have one for lunch too, but also for me. A lot of times I will eat half before, like a lifting session, kind of halfway through the session, eat the other half Right To keep myself going, but because they're filling. But you know when, when you're lifting heavy, you want that.

Tony: 23:25

So I think you know people can eat them as a quick, convenient source of energy for working out, but they're also either protein're protein bars, right, so we are. We're always looking to supplement our protein. We can never get all the protein that we need. So for me, you know, midday snack, if I'm looking for something to grab real quick while I'm working, you know I'll grab a protein bar, cause I know I need extra protein because I'm not getting all the protein.

Philip Pape: 23:49

Love it, okay, yeah. No, I just want to give people options. I mean pre-post-workout convenience option you talked about the convenience store option Mid-afternoon snack that's my favorite use of it. It is a dessert. Let me just give it to you guys. A dessert Now granted you could maybe.

Tony: 24:03

People often ask us can we use this as a meal replacement, can we? This is a meal replacement. I always say no. I say eat your meals, take a third of them and eat this in between.

Lori: 24:15

But I know a lot of you know, women people are looking to lose weight or or you're just on the go with the kids right and you know, a lot of people aren't going to do what I used to do, where I would just take, you know, grab a chicken breast put. You knew that it would drive you crazy, put in a ziploc and off. I'd go and just munch on my chicken breast, you know, um, but a lot of people don't want to do that. Um, yeah.

Philip Pape: 24:39

So what about adding to recipes? Do you guys? I like I haven't looked too into it. I'm not a big recipe guy. There's some people, including someone on my team she's the opposite. She like loves planning her whole week out with like fancy recipes. I opposite, she like loves planning her whole week out with like fancy recipes. I have a ninja creamy, though I could see potentially adding this somehow. But uh like, maybe as the thing the mix in afterward. But yeah, do you guys?

Lori: 25:02

do recipes where people like break these up and put them in something. Not necessarily, but we we had someone that took little pieces and put them in her oven and turn them into little cookies. You know, just kind of melts it all a little bit, yeah, but we used to do that with quest bars cause they turned into cardboard and you have to stick them in the microwave.

Tony: 25:19

Yeah yeah, I don't know. I've actually ever eaten a quest bar. I was a two. I was too afraid.

Philip Pape: 25:23

After reading the label, it's it's yeah, yeah, I used to eat them just like it was. It was. You didn't have a lot of options back then. Yeah, exactly, so now we've got options. So you guys are. Obviously. You have day jobs, and this is not the only thing you do. How does that work? Just give us a peek into your life.

Tony: 25:41

How does it work? It's pretty difficult. We're up early in the morning writing notes and fulfilling orders. We're up late at night preparing for orders for the next day. Um, I was out at lunchtime, um, restocking our inventory, you know. So it's wherever we can squeeze in it was. You know, it started off as sort of a um, a weekend side gig, but it's, it's almost become a second job. Um, yeah, so you know we we definitely have to squeeze it in where we can. I work from home so I have a little bit more flexibility. But, yeah, we're in the we're making it work.

Tony: 26:18

We're making it work, yeah.

Philip Pape: 26:20

Yeah. So I hope people listening try these out. Just buy a few boxes. Try them out because you won't be disappointed. Get you some new clients.

Tony: 26:28

I have some interesting statistics if you're interested. I've been doing some research, please do. We're actually looking at bringing on some investors, so I'm putting some decks together. What's interesting about our bar is that if you come back for a second order means you like the first order. You come back for a second order. The average person buys nine times.

Philip Pape: 26:49

Awesome, awesome. They do that on like a subscription. The average person buys three times because they Awesome. They do that on like a subscription.

Tony: 26:52

The average person buys three times because they just get sick of the bars. Nice Right. So we have a very high return customer rate. Our retention rate is super. We have a subscription program. We have a lot of clients on subscription where they give us a box or two or three automatically every month. That's a great piece of business for us and really convenient for the consumers.

Philip Pape: 27:18

So with the investors, are you looking to scale or go to physical locations, things like that?

Tony: 27:24

We're looking to scale. I mean, we sell bars all over the country. We've hit every one of the 50 states and we've also hit puerto rico, uh, yeah, um, and hawaii. It's kind of one of the 50 states.

Tony: 27:39

We don't ship outside of the united states at this point because of sorry, friends in australia yeah, just to get them we have people asking from canada all the time we get them in canada. We have people from Europe asking if they can get them in Europe. So we haven't gone that route yet, but we're looking to scale the business. The thing about the protein bar business is it's really a volume business. There's not a lot of profit, there's not a lot of margin in the bars. People are very price sensitive, so we have to keep our prices as competitive as possible, and the only way to make a real living off of this is to scale and drive your unit costs down. So that's our next move, I think.

Philip Pape: 28:18

Yeah, and I don't know how price sensitive I am. I definitely shop around for a lot of things, but I will say this is one of those that I've subscribed to and I honestly didn't care what the price was because I love them so much, so that's a great product to have. Seriously, because there are some things I'm like do I still need this? Oh, and the price just went up again. Uh, yeah, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit, but what's like the biggest complaint you get, even today that maybe you're working on what it what keeps you up at night that you're trying to improve? Complaint from customers or Customers or, yeah, customers.

Tony: 28:49

We don't get any. Okay, okay, every once in a while, like you said earlier, maybe someone gets a bar where the wrapper is open, so the bar dried out. That's a manufacturing thing or a wrapper, so we'll replace the bars. Someone got like a half a bar for some reason in their box, so we send them a new box of bars. No one ever complains about the taste, the, the, uh it's very it's very rare.

Lori: 29:15

I think we could. Since 2016, we definitely could count on just one hand how many like low star reviews we've gotten, and when we get them, we actually put them on our instagram because we want to be very transparent.

Tony: 29:33

But it's almost kind of funny you know, because when someone said all these bars don't taste good, so we posted that, and someone said well, I'll take them, she doesn't want them.

Philip Pape: 29:40

I love them.

Lori: 29:41

That's great yeah, so we really is remarkable people want more flavors.

Tony: 29:46

We've had. We have two flavors. Right now, with the peanut butter, we have the chocolate chip. Yeah.

Lori: 29:50

Yeah, so more requests than complaints.

Tony: 29:52

Yeah, looking for different flavors. People want us to make something that's dairy-free.

Philip Pape: 30:00

Oh, yeah, okay.

Tony: 30:02

Probably fruity too right.

Philip Pape: 30:03

They want something fruity yeah something fruity.

Tony: 30:09

Sometimes someone will say, oh, oh, the bar has too many calories.

Lori: 30:14

Well, I know, I know so, but so you know actually, you know what, you know what.

Philip Pape: 30:18

That is an interesting one. Let's, let's, let's head on that just real quickly, because I suspect it's the fat that's giving the most calorie impact, right, because fat's so dense. Is that something you've thought about of like stripping that back and have a lower fat, higher protein, carb version? No?

Tony: 30:34

No, we're happy with the balanced macros, and if you don't like a balanced macro bar, there are other bars that you can purchase.

Lori: 30:41

Or you can do like me and have half or half half. Have the other half later.

Philip Pape: 30:45

And you know what? 200 calories is only 10% of your day. So guess what, folks? You get the rest of the day to choose what you want. It's not that hard.

Lori: 30:52

You know, it's kind of like you're only eating it at home because of the convenience. Um, you know, hopefully you are eating real foods the rest of the day. So you know, and you're going to feel nice and full.

Philip Pape: 31:05

So yeah, I like it. For that reason I will say that, of all the years, now that I've had protein bars, protein powders, you know things like that like, unless you're going to go with a whey protein powder, which is pretty efficient, you're not trying to get a bar to give you all your protein. It's like, well, I need protein and you know I need to get a lot of it every day, so why not have something that has more protein than other things and it happens to be great in all these other ways? I mean, that's just kind of my logic on it, right, yeah, I agree.

Philip Pape: 31:38

Okay, so, and we talked about the consumer awareness, about ingredient quality. I mean, how do you think that's going to? I know you're trying to inform the market, but then you're also trying to meet the market where it's evolving. What are, like, the top two or three things? Are they related to specific ingredients, like when people got all upset about red dyes for a while and, of course, seed oils has always been a villain and things like that. Is it that or is it more just general quality?

Tony: 31:59

Well, we've never had any of those things in our products, so we never had to worry about those things. But as those become more prevalent in the news, then we'll promote those as well. So we did a post recently about the birthday cake bar that had all the different red dyes and so forth in it. Um, you know we do posts about sugar, alcohol all the time. So again, we're. The market is evolving and I think they're catching up with us and we're trying to educate them at the same time.

Philip Pape: 32:25

So, um, yeah, I'm just curious, it's fine, yeah, I'm, I'm. I asked lots of questions, guys, so don't you know what I mean? Um, I'm just very curious. So, all right, it sounds like you know. It started with a dream, which I love. I like when. When I said impulsive, you know I meant that almost as a compliment, cause I tend to empathize with that idea of the more you do, the more you hustle, the more movement you make in your life, the more serendipity finds you, and you're not going to know until you put yourself out there.

Lori: 33:02

So is there something along the way you've tried and didn't work out regarding either the bar specifically or just business in general? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know espresso bar. Yeah, so we did try to cater to the non-dairy folks and used collagen. We actually had a double chocolate espresso bar Delicious, but you either loved it or hated it. So it was definitely it was our least sold. We still have people that will ask are you going to bring that back? But, um, perhaps if we had made it not double chocolate espresso, because we had, it had espresso beans in it, like it was delicious.

Tony: 33:43

So, again, that texture that I love salsa covered espresso beans and, at the time, like actual bean that's crunchy and everything. Yeah, yeah we actually had those in the bar. So you know, I guess that was catering to a certain, uh, taste bud yeah plus collagen is very difficult to work with, as you know.

Tony: 33:59

It's sort of gluey. Yeah, yeah, for sure, it's hard to get the right texture for us. We worked really hard on getting the right texture. I thought we had it. You know we hit it pretty well, but it was still a little gluey. So yeah, we had that part for like a year or a year and a half, and we had to discontinue it because it just wasn't selling fast enough it.

Lori: 34:18

Yeah, it was a lot like the um rx bars, where you felt like it kind of got stuck in your teeth oh, you know what like built bars too. Maybe you know you haven't even tried it.

Philip Pape: 34:30

No no okay, there's a whole thing there because built bars. They're very gluey, some people hate them, some people don't protein.

Lori: 34:37

You know we just couldn't. So you know it would kind of seep out. And if the oil is seeping out and then it's coming through the, we don't want you to that was the collagen yeah, like it would. It was oily, yeah, so I say, yeah, it was kind of a no, that's good, but the concept just didn't work.

Tony: 35:11

So we got really lucky with our first two, and the third one was kind of a dud, but that happens.

Philip Pape: 35:16

Keith, are you still experimenting with some things, even if you can't talk about them Always?

Tony: 35:22

Well, we can talk about it, okay, I don't know what he's going to say.

Tony: 35:27

I have grand visions for this company being more than just a protein bar company. I don't think that there is a trusted protein supplier out there where I can go and feel good about what I'm buying in terms of all the different ways that we eat protein other than meat, so I make my own yogurt at home. I would love to have a protein yogurt that people can trust that has great ingredients. I'd love to have a, a, um, a protein powder that people can trust even maybe a protein drink and be like the trusted protein company I don't think that's where you're going?

Tony: 36:02

I don't think that, uh, yeah, is uh. That doesn't exist in the marketplace at this point.

Philip Pape: 36:08

Yeah, what do you think of companies like um, like Fairlife, like fair life. You know who has the, the filtered milk. I'm thinking of a couple that people tend to find are cleaner.

Tony: 36:20

Ish, right, because they're mainly milk, but they have other stuff in there there are good companies in each silo, but there's no company that says we're we're covering all the protein sources protein stuff.

Philip Pape: 36:29

Yeah, be your trusted protein company yeah, you're right, because some the companies like first form, which I'm an affiliate for them, but honestly, a lot of their stuff has tons and tons of you know these ingredients and they they spend a lot of time trying to educate on protein and how it's filtered, but not really talking so much about all the other ingredients in there. So you know, cool. Yeah, now what about a? What about a vegan option? And again, I don't I eat meat, but I do have a lot of clients that are vegetarian, vegan, and they're always asking for that kind of stuff. So, on the whey protein side, pea and rice is a great option. Are you ever looking to that?

Tony: 37:01

We've had people ask for that. I'm just not sure that the vegan consumer is a large enough percentage of the entire population to make it worth it for us at this point. We still have 300 million plus non-vegans that we have to sell to and convince before we try to go out to the vegan market, and that's not really where our expertise lies. So after having the lack of success with the collagen bar, I'm probably a little hesitant to try something unusual again, not having any expertise in that area.

Stephanie: 37:37

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment. It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Philip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape: 38:23

So do you have a way that people get to you with feature requests or ingredient requests or new product requests? Is it just on your website?

Lori: 38:30

Sometimes they'll just email us, you know, and ask.

Tony: 38:33

Email. We have a lot of instagram messages, facebook messages through our website. We have chat bot on our website that you know comes straight to us. Even though it's a chat bot, we can answer. We answer chats pretty much.

Philip Pape: 38:48

Almost feels like 24 7 yeah um yeah, no, I can tell you guys have a feel of of a. You know the direct to consumer. You care, you listen to people, you talk to people and again, just for anybody watching the video, these notes are great and I can't imagine how much time you put into them. But what was the genesis of this?

Tony: 39:15

Delorey, I said you know, even though we're selling protein bars, I believe that we're in the relationship business, so we have to treat this like we're building relationships because, really, ultimately, that's what we all do. You do it, we do it as audiologists and financial planners. That's what we do. So why not do it with a food or a protein bar? We're in the relationship business. So Delore already started writing these handwritten notes and it's just become like, uh, um, you know, a signature deal for us.

Lori: 39:41

People always comment on the handwritten notes I just think it's really important for people that it is a relationship and we want people to know that we appreciate that they're doing business with us. So I feel like I can take the time as long as I can take the time to write the note, like I love writing the note that says thanks for a second order. Right, and I want people to know that we know they're getting a second order. I just think it's important.

Tony: 40:09

Or thanks for your 20th order. We got an order today from someone. I think it was their 109th order.

Philip Pape: 40:16

Wow, is that like a record, or who did you? Know, that's great. That's great. Um, yeah, no, this one said Phillip, thanks again, Looking forward to the podcast. You know, just, it was great, you know it was nice.

Tony: 40:28

Um, I think that was me.

Philip Pape: 40:31

I haven't learned to distinguish your handwriting. Yeah, yeah, you can tell, you can see man it's handwriting. Yeah, all right. So I mean, what are you excited about now going into the future?

Tony: 40:42

Well, this idea of scaling, of becoming a bigger brand, of becoming the trusted protein provider I mean, again, I make my own yogurt at home. I love the idea of homemade yogurt knowing exactly what's in it, which is, you know, basically just one ingredient or two ingredients milk and, and uh, the protein bacteria, if you want to call it that. You know, I just growing and becoming. You know, you know we have these.

Tony: 41:09

I have a grand vision, right, we started as a mom and pop thing, just so we can have something that we trusted. Um, and I want it to be something, just so we can have something that we trusted, and I want it to be something that everyone can trust and something that everyone can feel good about. I think that in the supplement space, if you want to put us in the supplement space, I think if you ask people what's the first thing that comes to mind when you say supplements, they probably say I don't really trust them, I don't know what they are, what's in them, they're not regulated. I don't you trust them. I don't know what they are, what's in them, they're not regulated, I don't know where they're coming from. I want to be a trusted provider of good products for people and then having that relationship mindset as well, I think we can take this and turn it into a fairly large organization.

Philip Pape: 41:54

I mean there's tremendous value in that fairly large organization. I mean there's tremendous value in that Is part of that strategy connecting with athletes or influencers or business owners or podcasters. I'm just curious.

Tony: 42:04

Yeah, for sure We've. You know, we've worked with athletes, We've worked with Olympic weightlifters, we were Olympic rower, we had an.

Tony: 42:12

Olympic rower. You know people are reaching out to us all the time from you know, not with nil right. A lot of college athletes are reaching out to us looking for um products. Um nascar reached out to us recently. So there's a lot of opportunity to partner, uh, with different athletes. But you know we're pretty picky. We don't want just any athlete just for the name. If we're going to partner with someone, we want it to be someone who shared the same values as we do and can help us grow the company, rather than just piggybacking on what we do.

Philip Pape: 42:52

It's a fascinating industry. I don't envy you because I understand how hard it is and it sounds like quite the hustle, but you're also doing what you can to really grow and make an impact. I don't know if you follow Mike Matthews right. He's the owner of Legion Athletics. They're a massive, massive supplement company and he just ended his podcast after many years because his supplement company is finding success now, after getting to $65 million of revenue. You know what I mean. Like it took that long before you said okay, now I'm independent. And I'm not trying to make you guys put pressure on you guys. I just think it's a fascinating industry for sure. Very much like most of retail in the food industry, I imagine, when it comes to the competitiveness and the margins and things like that.

Lori: 43:32

Yeah.

Tony: 43:33

We used to work with a food group where we had we were with a granola company, a yogurt company, a chocolate company, all different, all different, um, direct-to-consumer types of food companies and all small startups and they were, all you know, all had the same issues. So, um, yeah, it's, it's the food industry, the supplement, the protein. They're very competitive, difficult businesses to survive in.

Philip Pape: 44:02

I feel like you guys should be in Whole Foods, you know, but I'm sure you hear that a lot because that's a hard business to get into.

Lori: 44:07

Yeah, and then there's and again, it's what you said, so we're in our the local, all the you know Carol Luzzi's around here, big Y right.

Tony: 44:17

Yeah, we have a handful of local markets that we service here in western Connecticut. We decided not to expand that as much and really focus more on the direct-to-consumer through our website, so we can just reach more people.

Lori: 44:37

Yeah, higher margins, more scale. Yeah, there's also the issue of we have a nine-month shelf life because it's natural ingredients. So if we try to do something like a whole foods, it's just constantly we'd be having to replace bars if they didn't sell out or whatever and, like you said, the, the margins and what they want and you know how much they want to pay for something. So, yeah, yeah, it just doesn't work.

Philip Pape: 45:03

That's important Sticking to the values. That's why. That's why we buy the product. So is there anything else, as we wrap up, that you wish I had asked that we didn't cover?

Lori: 45:12

I don't think so. No, I can't think of anything.

Tony: 45:20

So, from your perspective, as someone who eats the bars, who understands the ingredients, how would you describe this to one of your clients? How would you describe the benefits of the ingredients, and not so much the taste of the bar, but the benefits of the ingredients, and not so much the taste of the bar but the benefits of the ingredients?

Philip Pape: 45:38

Well, I do lead from the taste, though. Yeah, I mean I mean most, most folks I work with or listen to podcasts. You know they have body composition goals, athletic goals, performance goals and, um, pretty much understand energy, balance and macros, or they're learning about it. So I'm going to start there and say you know, you need protein supplementation Great bar for that. It has a balance. That a macro is great for that. But it also is a source of energy.

Philip Pape: 46:04

As far as the ingredients, well, and it tastes great that you guys can't discount that, let me tell you. And then, as far as ingredients, for sure, like I always struggle to find, I don't even use the word clean. I know you guys use it. That's just me. I just use like whole foods, like I almost think of this as a whole foods bar. You know what I mean. Like a protein bar, energy bar. A lot of people are looking for that, and with 10, 20% of your diet made up of some sort of indulgences, you're probably going to spend your processed food budget on pizzas or donuts or something like that, right?

Tony: 46:36

So we do pizza.

Philip Pape: 46:38

Yeah, you know, I mean, you know whatever, and so this fits squarely in the. This is nutrient dense, it's, it's delicious, it's got fiber and it could actually fit in that side of the equation rather than be considered like processed food. So I think that's a differentiator for you guys for sure. Yeah, I don't know if that was a good explanation, think that's a differentiator for you guys for sure.

Lori: 46:59

Yeah, I don't know if that was a good explanation, but that's what comes to mind.

Tony: 47:02

Yeah, yeah, it's good, thank you. And we're so busy talking about the bar all the times ourselves. It's nice to hear what other people think about it, especially people in the industry. You know, experts like you, like yourself.

Philip Pape: 47:09

Yeah, it's hard to find when people say okay. I actually rely on clients and group members, people in the Facebook group, to kind of tell me what are you finding out there in the world? That's what you consider clean or minimal, and usually it's fewer ingredients.

Lori: 47:23

Yeah, things you can pronounce.

Philip Pape: 47:24

Things you can pronounce.

Tony: 47:26

Things you can find in your pantry.

Philip Pape: 47:27

Yeah, it does it Pretty much. Most people will find that it tastes good when it's like that, in other words, like a bar like this. Unless you don't like an ingredient, you're going to find that it tastes good, whereas you find that the bars with artificial sweeteners and sugar, alcohols and what there's always some segment that say like something's off Taste McTallick does something when I go to the bathroom. No thanks, right. So you know. And again, I eat those bars. Other people do as well, we all. We're not. I don't want you to say perfect Cause there's, there's no such thing.

Tony: 48:01

We're not all eating a hundred percent whole foods, but this is definitely a great option in my opinion. Yeah, I appreciate that, so again, and again for the listeners I've.

Philip Pape: 48:05

I invited them on. So this is not like an infomercial paid, nothing like that. I'm paying them for the bars and there's no affiliate thing, nothing like that, and I'm happy to do it and I hope everyone looks you guys up and buys the bars. So what is the best way to do that?

Tony: 48:18

Let's check out our website muscleupbarscom. It's, you know, really consumer friendly website. We have right on the front page the homepage. If you don't want to dig in, you know it's all the different pages behind. You can buy our three box pack, which is two boxes of peanut butter and one box of chocolate chip. You get three boxes. Or, if you just want to try the bars, we also have a what's called a score for a four pack sampler right on the homepage. Just hit the buy button. You don't have to dig through the website to find that. So you want to try and get the four pack. If you want to jump right in, there's a three pack Well, three boxes which is 36 bars, right on the homepage.

Tony: 48:58

And you know we have blogs, we have nutritional information. If you want to check out our label, our nutritional label, it's in there on every product page. So all the information, we're very transparent. Everything's out there. A lot of times when you go to a protein bar webpage which I do a lot to look for the ingredients, I can't find them. Really have to dig for them. Right? Ours are right there, you know. Read the label. It's there for you to read and if you like what you see. Give them a try. Phillip believes they taste good. I think they taste good.

Lori: 49:31

And I think most people think they do. I do also want to say that we do wholesale. So if anybody's listening and they have a gym or whatever a small store, we do wholesale.

Tony: 49:41

We sell to gas. We don't promote to the gas stations but we have gas station scholars who want to sell our bars. We ship bars out to a gas station in New Jersey and Arizona recently. So yeah, we do wholesale on direct to consumer on our website yeah, love it.

Philip Pape: 50:00

I mean, yeah, like you said, there's a, there's a comparison table there, there's a whole blog reviews, all of that stuff, amazing.

Tony: 50:07

All right, muscle at barscom, I'll throw it in there which we try to be better about doing, and we're putting some fun posts up on instagram. Yep bars, you can find us there as well.

Philip Pape: 50:15

Cool, I'll put the links in the show notes which we try to be better about doing, and we're putting some fun posts up on Instagram.

Philip Pape: 50:18

Yep, you can find us there as well. Cool, I'll put the links in the show notes and thanks so much for doing this. It's been a pleasure to meet you guys in person again, I think again and um, share your story and talk about this, this awesome food product that is, uh, going to help you make gains while sticking to good quality ingredients and enjoying a snack that really does taste great. Thanks, Thanks, guys.

Tony: 50:40

We appreciate you inviting us. Thank you, and I appreciate the opportunity to chat with your listeners.

Philip Pape: 50:46

Thanks for coming on.

Tony: 50:47

Thanks, bill, appreciate it.

The Blue Zone Hoax (and Other Diet Myths That Won’t Make You Live Longer) | Ep 330

Join the Wits & Weights Facebook Group for evidence-based support and community, plus live Q&As and exclusive content

--

Learn about one of the biggest nutrition hoaxes of our generation - the famed Blue Zones, where people supposedly live extraordinarily long lives due to their traditional diets and lifestyles.

When demographer Dr. Saul Justin Newman examined the data behind these celebrated longevity hotspots, what he discovered was shocking. Those regions with the most reported supercentenarians (people over 100) weren't the healthiest places. They were areas with poor record-keeping, poverty, and weak documentation systems. What's going on?

You'll also discover how regions celebrated for plant-based eating actually consume meat daily, and get a data-driven framework for spotting diet deceptions.

Main Takeaways:

• Blue Zone supercentenarian claims are largely based on fraudulent data and poor record-keeping

• Many "plant-based" Blue Zone regions actually consume animal products daily

• Extraordinary health claims require extraordinary evidence - use the 5-point framework to evaluate nutrition advice

• Real longevity factors are simple and well-established by the evidence without the need for "secrets," supplements, or hacks

Timestamps:

0:01 - The Blue Zone data fraud
8:17 - The plant-based diet deception in Blue Zones
10:10 - Other diet myths: alkaline diets, detox cleanses, dietary extremism
14:20 - 5-point framework for spotting nutrition nonsense
25:53 - What actually contributes to healthy aging
29:05 - Healthspan vs. lifespan

Why the Blue Zones Don’t Hold the Secrets to Longevity

The truth behind the myth

For years, we’ve been sold a story. A handful of remote regions across the globe—Okinawa, Sardinia, Nicoya, Ikaria, and Loma Linda—where people routinely live past 100, supposedly thanks to their clean, plant-based diets, strong communities, and healthy lifestyles. The so-called Blue Zones have spawned best-selling books, coaching programs, and enough recipes to fill an entire aisle at Whole Foods.

But here’s the problem: the foundation of this entire narrative is built on incredibly shaky data. In fact, once you actually examine the records, the story unravels faster than you can say “centenarian.”

Fake numbers, fabricated ages

Let’s start with the numbers. When demographer Dr. Saul Justin Newman analyzed Blue Zone data, he discovered massive inconsistencies. The highest reported concentrations of supercentenarians weren’t in places with excellent healthcare or low crime—they were in regions with poor record-keeping, widespread poverty, and high rates of pension fraud.

Take Japan, for instance. An audit in 2010 found over 230,000 “missing” centenarians—individuals supposedly alive on paper but either long dead or untraceable. Italy and Greece showed similar patterns. In Costa Rica’s 2000 census, after correcting age errors, the number of centenarians dropped by 90%. That’s not a typo.

You can’t base longevity advice on people who didn’t actually live that long.

But what about their diets?

Even if we (generously) ignore the sketchy records, the dietary narrative doesn’t hold up either. The popular Blue Zone pitch is that these populations thrive on a near-vegan diet, with meat being a rare treat. But in practice, meat and animal products are part of daily life in these regions:

• Sardinia: Shepherds consume goat’s milk, cheese, and pork regularly.

• Okinawa: Pork is central to the cuisine—every part of the pig gets eaten.

• Nicoya: Beef and pork are dietary staples.

• Ikaria: Lamb, fish, and dairy are common.

• Loma Linda: Adventists follow a largely plant-forward diet, but many still consume dairy and fish.

So when people cherry-pick the “plant-based” bits and ignore the rest, it’s not science—it’s marketing.

Other myths that sound good but don’t hold up

The Blue Zones are just one example of how a compelling story can overshadow real evidence. Here are a few others:

• Alkaline diets: You can’t change your blood pH with food. If you could, you’d end up in the ER.

• Juice cleanses and detoxes: Your liver and kidneys do the detoxing. Starving yourself on green liquid doesn’t help.

• The one-true-diet trap: Whether it’s vegan, carnivore, keto, or Mediterranean, any diet claiming to be the only solution is a red flag. What matters most is whether it’s sustainable, nutrient-dense, and personalized for you.

Most of these myths follow the same formula: take a small truth (like “vegetables are good”), blow it up into a universal law (“only eat plants”), and wrap it in a story designed to sell you something.

A better framework for evaluating diet advice

So how do you sort through the noise? Here’s a five-part checklist I use:

1. Watch for red flags: Any one-size-fits-all diet claim is probably wrong. Biology is complex and personal.

2. Evaluate evidence quality: Anecdotes and testimonials are not proof. Look for randomized controlled trials and, most importantly, your own results.

3. Consider the source: Are they selling something? Do they have actual expertise? Just because someone has a million followers and a lab coat doesn’t mean they’re legit.

4. Understand the mechanism: Can they explain how the diet works beyond buzzwords like “toxins” or “inflammation”?

5. Seek nuance and balance: Good advice sounds like “it depends.” It acknowledges trade-offs and context, not absolutes.

What actually contributes to a long, healthy life?

Despite all the pseudoscience out there, we do know a few things for sure—because they show up over and over again in quality research:

• A diverse, balanced diet with both plants and animals.

• Regular physical activity (especially resistance training).

• Good sleep, stress management, and community support.

• Consistency over perfection.

You don’t need to live in a remote village or cut out entire food groups. You don’t need to chase 110 years on paper when 90 strong, healthy years would be a much better goal.

So instead of falling for feel-good longevity myths, focus on what’s real, practical, and doable. Train hard. Eat well. Sleep deeply. Build muscle. Spend time with people you care about. That’s the real longevity plan—and no fake census data required.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

What if I told you the so-called Blue Zone longevity secrets might be more about bad record-keeping and pension fraud than actual science that many of those 110-year-olds never existed in the first place? Today, we're exposing the truth behind one of the biggest nutrition myths of our time. You'll discover why the Blue Zone diet narrative is built on shaky data, how regions famous for plant-based eating actually consume meat daily, and the warning signs that reveal when diet advice is more marketing than medicine. We're also tackling other diet deceptions that promise weight loss and longevity but deliver disappointment instead, so that by the end of this episode, you'll have a data-driven framework for spotting nutrition nonsense and focusing instead on what actually works for your health and body composition. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:04

I'm your host, certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're applying that engineering mindset to one of the most persistent nutrition myths of the past two decades the blue zones. If you've never heard of these, they've been celebrated as proof that certain diets and lifestyles can dramatically extend human lifespan. There have been books, documentaries, media that have promoted these regions as having cracked the code of longevity. But what happens when you examine the data behind these claims, what we find is a cautionary tale about how poor record-keeping, selective storytelling and even confirmation bias can create very compelling narratives that just fall apart under scrutiny. And I know this was talked about recently on, I think, the Mind Pump podcast. I originally heard about it on a news podcast a few years ago and I wanted to revisit this today to talk about not just the blue zones themselves, but overall. How do we spot these kinds of problems out in the industry? Before we get into the myths, I want you to know if you're looking for evidence-based support for your health journey and want to talk to others who have the same level of skepticism and curiosity as you do. Join our Wits and Ways Facebook group. It's totally free. A community of like-minded people who value critical thinking over clickbait. We regularly discuss how to separate the legitimate health advice from some of these other things, and we often have people coming in asking about things like carnivore or longevity or things like this. Just search for Wits and Weights on Facebook or click the link in the show notes and join us in the Facebook group. We recently exceeded the 1,000 person mark, so it's a very vibrant and growing community you're going to love. Click the link in the show notes or search for Wits and Weights on Facebook.

Philip Pape: 2:45

All right, let's start with what blue zones claim to be. You may not have heard of these and if you haven't, they are five regions around the world where people supposedly live very, very long lives. Okinawa in Japan is the one often spoken about, sardinia in Italy, nicoya in Costa Rica, ikaria in Greece and Loma Linda in California, and the story is very, very compelling, as many stories are. These places allegedly have very high concentrations of centenarians and super centenarians, so people who live beyond 100 years, who attribute this long life to their traditional diets, to active lifestyles, to strong communities, and the story has been so powerful that it really has actually spawned an entire industry of cookbooks, of supplements, of coaching using the phrase Blue Zone. And here's where my mind kicks in, because, as extraordinary as the claims are, any extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, right, and when Dr Saul Justin Newman he is a demographer who won an Ig Nobel Prize for his work he examined the data behind the Blue Zone longevity claims, he found something that's pretty shocking, and I was shocked to learn this just a few years ago or maybe it was last year, actually, that the regions with the highest reported numbers of supercentenarians supercentenarians were not the healthiest places. They were actually correlated with poverty, with poor record keeping, with higher crime rates and with very weak documentation systems. So, in other words, the places claiming to have the most 110-year-olds were exactly the places where you'd expect to find errors in data and fraud. And Newman found that birth rates of the supposed supercentenarians were oddly clustered on days ending in zero or five, suggesting that many dates were approximated or made up when exact records weren't there.

Philip Pape: 4:38

So this is like a classic red flag when it comes to data analysis that anyone would recognize as not what I shouldn't say. Anyone like an engineer or mathematician looking at the data, I would say, would recognize it as a non-random distribution. Um, and honestly, if you saw this in a list and you're like, well, what's up with all the you know tens and 25s and tens and 25s, it doesn't make sense. Um, you'd probably notice that pattern. But it gets worse than that because in Costa Rica's 2000 census, 42% of people age 99 and above had misstated their age and after correcting the errors, the centenarian population of Nicoya that's the region in Costa Rica, right, that's a blue zone it dropped by 90%, and so the elderly life expectancy ranking fell from world leading to near the bottom.

Philip Pape: 5:27

And this is just a really shocking example of what happens when we accept these feel-good stories and don't validate the data. And then they persist for years and years and you might think these are just like innocent record-keeping errors, but sometimes there's something more nefarious at play, and Newman discovered that many of the supposed centenarians were victims of pension fraud, and that's where families don't report death, so they keep getting benefits. They get benefits from the loved ones Even though they've died, they think they're alive. They keep getting pension benefits. Japan is a really dramatic example of this.

Philip Pape: 6:01

There was an audit by the government in 2010 that found more than 230,000 listed centenarians were unaccounted for, so they were either missing or long dead, and that's a lot. That's 82% of their presumed centenarians were either missing or dead, some of them for many decades, and their families collected pensions. There's a particular case with a Tokyo man who was thought to be 111 years old and he was found mummified in his home. I know it's awful. He had actually died 32 years earlier, in 1978, and Newman said quote the secret to living to 110 was don't register your death. Kind of some very dark humor there, but that's what was going on, and this isn't unique to Japan.

Philip Pape: 6:43

Italy also discovered about 30,000 dead pension claimants in 1997. In Greece, at least 72% of the reported centenarians were dead or non-existent. And what this means is that all the data, the foundational data that supports blue zone claims is just totally unreliable. But now what if we set aside the age verification issues for a moment, although I mean honestly, that loses me right there. When I hear that amount of fraud and misinformation, I can't, really I don't even want to look at the data. I mean, I don't even want to like discuss the veracity of any of the dietary claims. Why would you? However, even when you do, it's problematic. So that's kind of.

Philip Pape: 7:22

The next turn I wanted to take for the show was the blue zone narrative. You know, from a nutrition standpoint, the story goes like this these regions follow primarily plant-based diets, with meat as a very rare indulgence, and that that explains their longevity, and this narrative has been used to promote plant-based eating as the key to long life. But when you look at, you know what these people in the regions actually ate rather than what the marketing materials say they ate. A different picture emerges right. In Sardinia, goat's milk, sheep's cheese, pork are common staples. The shepherds, who supposedly exemplify the blue zone longevity they consume animal products every day. In Okinawa, pork has been like the center of their traditional diet for centuries. They eat virtually every part of the pig, including organ meats, and seafood is consumed regularly. No surprise if you've ever been to Japan. I haven't been to Okinawa, but pretty familiar with Japanese culture and diet and yeah, there's plenty of meat there.

Philip Pape: 8:17

In Nocaya, costa Rica, beef and pork are widely consumed. In Icaria, greece, fish, dairy products, lamb are eaten. Loma Linda, california, there's one exception there the Seventh-day Adventists. They follow a largely plant-based diet, but they also consume dairy and sometimes fish, and they also abstain from smoking and alcohol and they exercise regularly and they have strong community. So you can say well, maybe that's why they live a little bit longer there.

Philip Pape: 8:45

No-transcript presentation of dietary patterns and that's what we see all the time in the industry today with what we call confirmation bias. Right, it's like the blue zone, the people promoting the blue zone diets. Again, aside from the whole data fraud issue, they emphasize plant foods and then downplay, or they cherry pick or ignore all the animal protein consumption because it doesn't prefer fit the narrative. What's so funny about this whole thing is they've done that, thinking that the blue zones actually have the output or the outcomes that they're claiming to have, and they don't. So it kind of like makes the whole thing fall like a house of cards.

Philip Pape: 9:20

So this blue zone myth is one example of how nutrition advice gets distorted, but I wanted to look at some other deceptions that promise weight loss and longevity but will make you disappointed if you try to follow them, let alone them being in many cases restrictive or unsustainable. Let's talk about something like the alkaline diet, which is that you can change your blood pH by eating certain foods, and that prevents disease and promotes longevity, and this is physiologically impossible. Like, your kidneys and lungs regulate your blood pH, and if food could alter it, you'd be in the emergency room. You wouldn't be living longer. And the reason some alkaline foods, like vegetables, are beneficial doesn't have anything to do with pH. It's because they're nutrient dense, they're high in fiber and they displace less healthy options. Right, that's just one example, and, by the way, you'll not I'm not going to hit on some of the big ones like carnivore in this episode.

Philip Pape: 10:10

I've done that a lot lately. I could definitely have included some of those and I'm going to do some future episodes on specific topics like fiber. I have an episode coming up on uh, whether fiber is necessary because carnivore diet claims it is not. Um, another example that comes to mind is detox cleanses, juice fasts that promise all sorts of things to reset your metabolism, to flush toxins, and this I always love to talk about detoxification, because the best detox fires your own body right your liver, your kidneys. They're detoxing your body 24-7. They don't need any help from anything else like a juice cleanse. And in fact those level of extreme approaches usually have the opposite effect long-term. They end up slowing your metabolism, they cause nutrient deficiencies, they cause muscle loss, all the things just because you're not getting in the things you need the protein, the nutrition, the fiber, whatever right.

Philip Pape: 11:01

And then there's the marketing war between low-carb, vegan diets, plant-based, which all claim that their approach is the secret to longevity. And again, all of these can work when they are, I'll say, well-planned out, well-thought out, structured and and here's the key word sustainable for you. If you can stick to the diet, it's good for you. I've heard the argument made lately that well, even if it's hard to stick to. That's not the point. Isn't health more important than anything? And therefore you'll do what it takes? Well, no, human psychology would beg to differ, because anybody who's tried not anybody, but the vast majority of people who've tried any diet that restricts things that they would otherwise eat, is going to be a problem, because you're going to binge on that later. You're going to miss it, let alone potentially unnecessarily cut things out that you could, uh, benefit from. You know, nutrient wise, fiber wise, taste wise, everything, um, what matters overall, I think?

Philip Pape: 12:01

I think the takeaway here is the dietary pattern is going to matter a lot more than the specific uh ratio of these things, and what I mean by that is like low carb is focused on what Lowering your carbs? Vegan is focused on just having plants, carnivore is just having animal products. In every single case, you're like flipping these ratios around to an artificial imbalance, let's call it, rather than having a balanced dietary pattern. You know, the funny thing is what your grandma said about eating in moderation actually holds up pretty well. Now there are some ways that you want to nudge that balance based on your goals. Right, like, most people aren't eating nearly enough protein, so when you eat quote unquote in moderation you're not really thinking about it you still might not have nearly enough protein for what you need as a lifter, as an athlete, as an aging person who's worried about muscle loss right. So there are ways to nudge it, but we're not talking about wholesale obliteration of one part of your diet, like carbs or plants or animal products, and so the pattern here with all of these is that any of these approaches.

Philip Pape: 13:06

What they do really well is they take a kernel of truth. They take a kernel of truth Like I did an. I just did an episode I think it was last week on fat loss versus fat burning, and the kernel of truth is that if you eat a low carb diet, you're going to burn more fat Guess what? That's actually true, but you're not going to lose more fat because you're actually eating more fat. So it all nets out and see, that's where you take the kernel of truth and you expand it and you say so it all nets out and see, that's where you take the kernel of truth and you expand it and you say okay, if you're burning more fat, it means you're going to lose more fat. No, that's not true. It just means you're burning more fat versus glucose. Somebody else is burning more glucose versus fat. It's all energy and all that matters is calories and calories out. And so they blow it up into a universal solution, right, some kernel of truth.

Philip Pape: 13:45

They take, for example, some compound in a plant is toxic at like massive levels and they say, well, that that means plants are toxic and all plants are toxic and therefore you get rid of plants, you solve all your issues autoimmune conditions, gut health, everything else. Go ahead and eat carnivore, and it just massively misses, um, the evidence. It also ignores individual differences between people. So anytime someone makes a claim that this is the one true diet, you're, you've got your skepticism. Hackles have to get raised because everybody's different your metabolism, your genetics, your lifestyle and there is no one true diet. So how do we protect ourselves from all of these deceptions?

Philip Pape: 14:20

Here is kind of an engineering-based framework, I would call it for evaluating nutrition claims. I'm going to give you five things to think about. Okay, this is for nutrition nonsense. First, you want to look for any red flag, and this sounds generic. So what I'm talking about is what I just mentioned Claims that a diet is one size fits all. That's the big red flag. Human biology is complex, it's individual. What works for one person may not work for another. So right there, right off the bat, if someone says this is the way to do it for everyone, boom, be suspicious. That's probably not true. Second, you want to examine the evidence quality. So not just the evidence, because evidence-based, science-based, gets thrown around a lot.

Philip Pape: 15:01

I use the term, and at this point it's become almost meaningless, because anecdotes and testimonials are not data. In fact, let me tell you something I was thinking about the other day. I'm all for anecdotes and stories. When they are used to disprove a one-size-fits-all claim, I'm all for that. In other words, if you say carnivore is right for everyone and then I say, well, what about these people over here who are not eating carnivore and they're thriving? Well, right there, you've just disproven that carnival's right for everyone. But you can't flip it around and say, well, this person, all his autoimmune conditions, gut health and brain fog went away because he went on low-carb diet. Therefore it's right for everyone. No, so you can't do that. You can't use one anecdote to make a universal claim. You can use an anecdote to disprove a universal claim, though. Right In general, in general. In other words, that's how the scientific method works is you make a hypothesis, you test it. If you find any evidence that doesn't support the hypothesis, well, your hypothesis is disproved and you need to adjust it right. You need to adjust it.

Philip Pape: 16:02

So when we talk about evidence quality, you know you want to look for, if you're looking at scientific literature, controlled studies, I mean some of the best would be randomized controlled studies, which are randomized controlled trials, rcts, which are very hard to find in the nutrition world. Usually we have observational studies that show correlation, not necessarily causation. That's where we get into real sticky wickets here we talk about, for example, people used to say look, diet Coke causes obesity because look at the correlation in the observational studies. Well, it turns out that people who have weight to lose will drink more Diet Coke because they're trying to lose weight. It's not because drinking Diet Coke causes weight gain. And we see those kinds of correlations all over the place. All over the place and everything you look at weight loss, you know well, they went on low carbon, they lost weight. Therefore it causes weight loss. Well, no, turns out that they cut their calories because they got rid of a bunch of processed foods and they were able to better manage their hunger signals etc. Right, so we have to be careful about evidence quality. Honestly, the best evidence I always say is N equals one. The N equals one sample size of one. You, you are your own best evidence. So I love starting with the foundation of what the science might suggest for you and giving you a ballpark or framework or guardrails, but then you need to try it out right.

Philip Pape: 17:18

I have clients all the time. I have one client in particular I can think of right now. He used to do fasted training and I said well, let's try eating some carbs before you train. He's like how much should I eat? I said let's try 20 grams. Okay, how did that feel? Wow, I felt like more energized. I was able to get more reps. I wasn't winded by the end. He's like should I eat more? I said what do you think? I'm like why don't we try double and tell me what you think? He tried double? He's like well, you know what? That was even a little bit better. And now that my training volume is increasing because I have the energy, I need more energy and that's what works for him. And now he might even try 60 grams and find out that that's optimal, and then 80 grams is too much or not necessary, right?

Philip Pape: 17:54

So your best evidence is yourself, and evidence quality to me is a hierarchy. You've got yourself in there. You've got, um, very controlled studies in there. You've got, you know, people you trust. I'll say then that that's kind of a thorny one. It's like I don't know if you trust me, right, if you just started listening to me, you don't trust me yet. But if you've listened to me for a long time and you've applied what I've said to your life and it works and I tried to come across, as I'll call it, sensible or flexible, if you will. I call out people all the time, but it's because they're trying to be restrictive and make universal claims, and I'm trying to counter that narrative by saying that nothing is universal, that it depends on you. So if you start to trust me and listen to my show, you're going to then give more weight to the evidence that I try to present in the future and which means I have a very large responsibility to deliver that to you. So that's evidence quality.

Philip Pape: 18:48

The third way to protect ourselves from diet deceptions is consider the source. So I kind of just started talking about this already in my last few statements. But is the person making the claims trying to sell you something? Do they have relevant credentials, relevant expertise? You know they don't necessarily have to have a degree per se or a certification. It really depends right, like in the medical field, they might need to be licensed and stuff, for you know legal and liability reasons, but it's up to you to kind of decide whether it's the appropriate level of credentials. I know lots of strength coaches who don't, who never got a personal training certification, but they're far more experienced and helpful than the vast majority of people who have personal training certifications. You know what I mean. Just just cause I know what it takes to. You know, get a cert is super easy. It's, it's a test, it's easy, whereas to become an actual, effective strength coach takes years of working with clients and you might do that without certification. So you just have to understand the source.

Philip Pape: 19:40

You look at the big scandal with the liver King and steroids and Paul Saladino and the supplements and all those guys out there. Generally people have millions of followers. You got to watch out like the ones that have the biggest followers I'm the most skeptical of. It's not, again, not necessarily the case, right? This is just a correlation that I'm making for you. Um, I'm just saying that the ones with the MDs behind their names and 2 million followers, you've got to got to make sure that they're saying what they're saying for a reason and it's not for trying to sell something, right? And having said that, the vast majority of people educating online probably have a business tied to that education in some way. So of course, they are trying to make a living. They might have a business. They're trying to make money. Guess what? That's what I do. I provide coaching, right. But I don't make claims that are not true to try to get you to sign up for coaching. You know that wouldn't work too well because if that worked you would sign up for coaching and then all of a sudden I wouldn't be able to deliver on the result because it doesn't line up with the evidence, right? So, again, you have to. You know I'm thinking more like people trying to sell supplements or, you know, rapid weight loss programs or something like that.

Philip Pape: 20:47

The fourth sign on spotting nutrition nonsense is you want to ask about the mechanism or the method, or the what should I say? The physiological means by which the intervention actually works in the body. Can they explain how it works? Vague claims about boosting your metabolism or alkalizing or diet cleansing, detox, whatever, or even inflammation that's the big trigger word these days, guys inflammation.

Philip Pape: 21:14

I think I'm going to do a whole episode just about inflammation how it is misused as a label, but also how it is misunderstood biologically, because inflammation can be measured in blood markers in some ways and in many ways it can't. But inflammation is directly tied to lifestyle and there are a lot of influencers that scare you into thinking that inflammation is tied to specific foods. That's just one example and no matter how hard you try, you can't find anything anywhere in the evidence that would support their claim, for example, seed oils being inflammatory. The evidence does not support that claim and I bring that one up specifically because it is so often repeated that it's inflammatory, it's inflammatory, it's inflammatory. What's inflammatory are dietary patterns and movement and sedentary behavior and stress and smoking and alcohol and lack of sleep and so on. There's a lot of things. I'm going to do a whole episode about it, but the point is you have to be able to understand the mechanism. Again, going back to last week's episode fat loss versus fat burn or lose fat versus burn fat. I tried to explain the mechanism behind how we store and lose fat on our body and how we actually burn fat in the moment, and how these are different mechanisms that lead to understanding the language we use around them.

Philip Pape: 22:32

Okay, and then the last thing here, number five, is look for balance and nuance. I think I've alluded to this several times, but legitimate nutrition advice is probably gonna start with something like it depends or multiple approaches can work, or individual factors make matter, or this is personal. You know those that kind of I try to use that language. Now, sometimes I get on my high horse, I get on my rants, my rambles, and I might make a statement with a lot more confidence and definitiveness than I intend to get across, or maybe I do intend to get it across, depending on what I'm talking about, but I try not to make a claim about something that is universal to everyone other than what's universal is that nothing is universal, right, in other words, that I'm definitely confident about that, that multiple approaches work. Yes, human physiology is universal, but your lifestyle and all the other epigenetics and phenotypes and all the other things that come into play as you live your life are what causes us to diverge and requires a much more nuanced application of the info.

Philip Pape: 23:34

Like, let's say, we're talking about training, not even diet. We're talking about strength training, and someone says how should I train? Oh, that is such a huge discussion. There's so many aspects to that. I can throw out generalities. I do all the time on podcasts, like you know, hit the big muscle groups two times a week using compound lifts and train like three or four days a week, like that would be a nice way to say it. That's just general, general principles right, principles, that's a good way to put it. Principles are universal, methods are what change.

Philip Pape: 23:59

And if someone doesn't talk in that way, if they talk, if they instead go into the grocery store on their Instagram reel and say you see this food, don't eat this food. It's got all this stuff. This is inflammatory, it's going to kill you, it's toxic. They don't know what they're talking about, right? They have no balance, no nuance, they don't put it in the context of your dietary pattern, they don't know who you are, what you eat, what you do. If I'm an athlete eating 4,000 calories, I could darn well eat 100 calories of just about anything, I don't care how quote-unquote toxic it is. You know, other than alcohol and, frankly, even alcohol if you just want to reduce it to calories there are other problems with alcohol, of course and have great results. Live a great life, feel great, thrive, live a long life. All of that right, because in the context of my 4,000 calories, or 3,000 calories or whatever, it's a tiny fraction of an overall dietary pattern. That's nuance, that's balance, right.

Philip Pape: 24:48

It's not promising miraculous results or claiming to discover the secret that thousands of researchers somehow missed, right. And the blue zones are really a great example, because they've become something that everybody just clings to and it's become quote unquote, common knowledge. And even that was completely wrong. Now you might be wondering if the blue zone claims are exaggerated, does that mean we should ignore everything out there about healthy aging and be very skeptical that the data is correct? I wouldn't say that. I would say this is where the mindset. When you examine what actually contributes to healthy aging, we do find consistent patterns that don't require believing in the kind of logic that the blue zones would have you believe, and these are very well supported by the things I talked about earlier, like randomized, controlled trials. We know these things, so I'm going to share them in a second. But my point is, if something new comes along and says here's the secret to healthy aging, you've never heard before boom red flag. Probably not true, right? Yes, we're discovering new things all the time, probably not true?

Philip Pape: 25:53

The real common factors among long-lived, healthy populations are very straightforward they eat nutrient-dense foods, including both plants and animals, so a diverse diet. Think about something like the Mediterranean diet, for example, which has lean meats, seafood, whole grains, seeds, nuts, fruits, vegetables, all of it. They stay physically active throughout their lives, they manage stress effectively, they get adequate sleep and they maintain strong social connections. And that last one is probably underrated. I don't talk about it as enough as I probably should, because we don't often think about that as health and fitness, right, the health of it, but really relationships, social connections, community is a big part of health, happiness and wellbeing, and I mean the the uh scientific term wellbeing used today in psychology literature, happiness and well-being. You know, self-reported happiness and well-being is highly correlated with strong social connections being the top factor. So nutrient-dense, diverse diet, which means a very flexible diet that gives you a lot of choice physically active, managing stress, adequate sleep, strong social connections.

Philip Pape: 27:00

Notice that none of these require any extreme dietary restrictions, expensive supplements, following the exact eating pattern of a village or an ancestral diet or whatever. They're principles that can be adapted to virtually any food, culture or lifestyle, which is beautiful, right, because food culture. Think about it as human beings. Food is part of our culture, it's part of the social experience, it's part of the social connections, in fact, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying food and having it be part of our ethnic culture, our religions, our spirituality, just our fun, our everyday fun, all day here. Getting to grill some meat with the family becomes an experience. My daughters love to help out, season the food, figure out how to cook it just right, how do we all like it, enjoy the meal together. It's wonderful.

Philip Pape: 27:51

And of all the blue zones, I would say the Loma Linda blue zone is a really good example of this, where there is reality, there is some truth there. It's the Seventh-day Advent is there and they don't have unusually high numbers of very old folks like super centenarians, but they do have higher average life expectancy overall. And if you look at their lifestyle, they don't smoke or drink, they eat a balanced diet with plenty of protein, they stay active and they have strong community support, and that's what longevity looks like. Right, it's not magical 120 year olds, it's not people reaching their eighties, but it is people reaching their eighties and nineties in good health. I always joke I want to die doing a deadlift in my nineties, maybe in my hundreds. That would be great, and that's actually far more achievable and valuable than trying to chase these extreme longevity things. And I didn't even talk about all of the longevity and biohacking podcasts out there that make claims using devices and supplements and talk about telomeres and all of these crazy things. Right, maybe I'll get proven wrong and some of those people will be here and they'll all be walking around at 120 years old, but I doubt it and I wonder how great of a life they lived, you know, and and whether they actually enjoyed it.

Philip Pape: 29:05

And by enjoy I don't mean the opposite extreme of being a heathen, a heathen right, where you're over consuming, you know, ultra processed foods and smoking and drinking and all that. I don't mean that at all. I mean having a thriving, healthy life where you're lifting weights, you're being active, you're getting off your butt every day, involved with your family, with your community, you know, making social connections and just being positive. I mean, it's kind of the way to put it. Put it so, by debunking these myths and having your own skepticism checklist, then you actually get more clarity on what works, because it gets rid of the noise when I talk about the BS and the noise in the industry, that's what I mean. Instead, you can just focus on the simple things at work building muscle with strength training, eating adequate protein from yes, both plant and animal sources. Eating your fiber, eating your carbs, your plants, your fruits all of that good stuff in a reasonable balance, whatever makes sense for you, whatever your goal is, maintaining the calorie balance appropriate for your goals. So, yes, even if you're trying to lose weight or fat, you got to understand that you need to eat less than you burn. Prioritizing sleep and stress management two of the biggest factors in all of this, including things like visceral fat accumulation as we get older, hormones, et cetera and then cultivating meaningful relationships.

Philip Pape: 30:19

And the problem is, these are not sexy marketing messages. They're just not. They're not. They're based on solid evidence. They actually work, but they're not sexy marketing. So I hope those of you who listen to this podcast appreciate where I'm coming from when I talk about this and that you'll share with others who need to hear a similar type of message and just take a more reasonable, sensible approach and do the thing that works. And guess what? The thing that works sometimes takes effort. No, it does take effort. It can be hard, right, but it pays off in the end. The hard of doing the right thing now is far less than the hard of not doing it later.

Philip Pape: 30:52

So if you're going to evaluate health advice in today's very, very much information saturated world, just remember that the very compelling stories, the viral content that spreads really fast, is often not accurate. Let's just put it that way. It's the careful science and the evidence takes time and it tends to be more simple in terms of the ultimate solution. And then it blinds us to red flags in the data because we want to latch onto these amazing stories, us to red flags in the data because we want to latch onto these amazing stories. So when you apply these principles to nutrition claims, when you demand good data, when you look for consistent patterns, when you question extraordinary claims, the picture emerges that the secret to healthy aging is not in remote villages in the blue zones, which have obviously questionable birth records. They're found in the well-established principles that have already been validated across multiple populations and studies over decades, and we have it right in front of us, right.

Philip Pape: 31:49

And that doesn't mean we should become cynical about all health advice. I don't want you to go the other extreme and just never trust anything. We just have to become critical thinkers. Question the data behind any claim that is a bit too impressive. Look for balanced, evidence-based approaches that have nuance, rather than this is the one true diet or way to work out, and if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is Like that is a time-tested adage and I don't know about you. I want to optimize my health span. I want to optimize the years that I spend healthy, strong, capable. You know not just my lifespan, I don. I want to optimize the years that I spend healthy, strong, capable. You know not just my lifespan. I don't want to just live a long time, I want to optimize my health span, and that is totally achievable when you have the right approach, all right. So if you want to connect with others who share this thinking, this evidence-based, critical thinking for health and nutrition, you want to learn and you're curious and you're willing to put in the effort, you're not just binging content, you're willing to do what it takes to, yes, lose the fat, build a muscle, look better, feel better all the things you want.

Philip Pape: 32:48

Join our Wits and Weights Facebook group Totally free. That's where we discuss how to separate legitimate science from hype. There's a lot of engagement there. There's fun questions being posted. I do live Q&As. There's sometimes early podcast drops all sorts of fun stuff. You're gonna find a supportive community. That's the best part about it is the other people there that value critical thinking over quick fixes. Just search for Wits and Weights on Facebook or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember the best health advice isn't exotic or complicated. It is nuanced and personalized. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Lean Bulk to Gain Muscle at 68 Despite Shoulder Issues | Ep 329

Join WWPU (Wits & Weights Physique University) to get a tailored nutrition and training system to lose fat and build muscle (at any age) - first two weeks free:
https://witsandweights.com/physique

--

"You're too old to build muscle." 

"With injuries like that, you should stop lifting weights." 

Have you heard these discouraging statements from doctors, trainers, or well-meaning friends, either yourself or older adults in your life?

We are shattering these harmful myths through the journey of my client Beth, who at 68 years old is successfully building muscle despite dealing with a significant shoulder injury.

If you've been told that age means you can't build muscle anymore or that injuries mean you should abandon your fitness goals, this episode will change your perspective.

Beth reveals exactly how she's adapting her training around medical limitations, why prioritizing muscle growth before fat loss has been revolutionary, and the specific techniques allowing her to gain muscle despite challenges that might sideline others.

Main Takeaways:

• Why building muscle is not only possible but essential after 60

• How to adapt training around injuries without sacrificing progress

• The mindset shift needed when transitioning from years of dieting to muscle building

• Why strength training becomes more important, not less, as we age

• How to balance strength training with other activities like cycling

Timestamps: 

0:01 - Building muscle after 60 despite shoulder injuries  
4:50 - History with "traditional" dieting (Weight Watchers, Nutrisystem, etc.)
6:53 - How thyroid medication changes affected her metabolism 
15:49 - Dealing with shoulder injuries (SLAP lesion and rotator cuff issues)
19:21 - Training modifications for shoulder limitations 
24:44 - Psychological benefits of being strong at any age 
26:56 - How she gained mostly muscle and dropped body fat without having to lose weight 
31:01 - How strength training enhances her cycling performance 
35:02 - Strategies for balancing strength training, biking, and recovery 
46:54 - Advice for older adults hesitant about strength training 
47:58 - Beth's 94-year-old mother who lifts weights

Join WWPU (Wits & Weights Physique University) free for 2 weeks!

Over 60 Lean Bulking (Even After an Injury!)

Most people assume muscle growth stops after 40. Some push it to 50, but 60? Forget about it. And if you’ve got an injury on top of that, you’re expected to sit down, slow down, and give up.

That’s exactly why this story matters.

In this episode, I talk to Beth, a 68-year-old member of my coaching program, who’s doing the opposite of what most people her age are told to do. She’s not cutting calories. She’s not overdoing cardio. She’s not trying to get “toned.” Instead, she’s lean bulking. Purposefully adding calories. Training with structure. Working around a shoulder injury. And most importantly, building muscle.

If you’ve ever questioned whether it’s possible to change your physique later in life or thought your medical limitations were a hard stop, this one will change your mind.

The power of a lean bulk (yes, even postmenopause)

Beth didn’t start from scratch. She was already active. She had tracked macros. She’d used MacroFactor. She’d done P90X. She’d ridden bikes, run races, and counted Weight Watchers points in the past. But she hit a wall. Despite everything she “knew,” her weight kept creeping up and her metabolism felt like it was in freefall.

That’s when she reached out and we changed the strategy.

Instead of cutting, we focused on muscle. Instead of lowering calories, we raised them. That’s when things shifted.

Her lean mass increased. Her energy returned. Her lifts improved. And her body looked and felt stronger than it had in years—even though her body weight was technically the highest it had ever been.

Why? Because she finally had the inputs aligned for growth. Not just physical growth, but metabolic, mental, and emotional growth. She was doing something most women her age are never told is even an option.

What if you’re injured?

Beth’s shoulder pain wasn’t minor. We’re talking SLAP tear, tendinopathy, and osteoarthritis. Her ortho told her no overhead pressing, no lat pulldowns, no reaching behind her back.

But she didn’t quit.

Instead, we modified. Machines replaced barbells. She discovered the safety squat bar. She limited bench range of motion and used a Smith machine to find pain-free angles. She took the pressure off perfection and focused on consistency.

That decision alone is something most people miss. Training around pain is better than not training at all. It’s not about what you can’t do. It’s about what you can do.

And Beth is living proof of that.

Her results speak for themselves

• Body weight: up 3 pounds

• Lean mass: up 4 pounds

• Strength: steadily increasing

• Confidence: through the roof

• Lifestyle: more active than ever

Even with shoulder limitations, her leg strength is better. Her biking feels easier. She can lift her own bike, carry a case of water, and do things she couldn’t years ago. She’s prepping for a biking vacation this fall and training like someone half her age. And she’s doing it all with intention and control.

Why this matters for YOU

If you’re over 40, 50, or 60, it is absolutely still worth chasing strength. You can build muscle. You can reshape your body. You can avoid the trap of yo-yo dieting and the long-term consequences of constant restriction.

Beth’s story is a reminder that lean bulking is not just for young guys. It’s for women. It’s for older adults. It’s for anyone who wants to regain control of their health and performance.

And yes, there’s always a way to work around your limitations if you have the right mindset and coaching.

If you want to join a community that supports that kind of transformation, where the people lift each other up (literally and figuratively), check out Physique University. You’ll find people like Beth who aren’t interested in the latest fad—they’re interested in what works.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you think it's impossible to build muscle after 60, or 50, or even 40, or injuries mean you have to abandon your fitness goals, think again. My client, beth, has not only embraced a lean bulk at 68 years old, but is succeeding despite a complex shoulder injury. In today's conversation, you'll discover how she's adapted her training around medical limitations, why prioritizing muscle growth before fat loss has been a game changer for her results and the exact strategies that are working when other approaches failed. If you are dealing with age-related concerns, recovering from injury or tired of yo-yo dieting, beth's approach proves it's never too late to transform your physique with the right strategy. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:58

I'm your host, philip Haith, and I've got something special for you today, because I'm sitting down with Beth, a member of our Physique University community who is challenging conventional wisdom about fitness after 60. At 68 years old, she is navigating a significant shoulder injury while purposefully building muscle mass, and that is a strategy that contradicts much of what she'd been told throughout her life and many of you have probably heard. Today we're going to talk about how she's adapting her training around those limitations, the mindset shifts that have been critical to her progress, and the specific techniques that are allowing her to gain muscle despite challenges that might have sidelined others. We'll also get into some real-time coaching to optimize her approach going forward and give you some takeaways to apply regardless of your age or your limitations. Beth, very excited that we can do this together, so thank you for joining me.

Beth: 1:49

Thank you for having me Excited to do it.

Philip Pape: 1:52

Yeah, yeah, no, it's great. I'm excited for the listeners to learn about how you've done this, because there are definitely a lot of naysayers and there's a lot of frustration out there, and you've experienced some of that. Right, you've spent most of your life trying different diets, weight loss approaches and now, at the young age of 68, you are focused on building muscle and not just necessarily cutting calories. What made you decide to pursue muscle building at this stage, instead of focusing on what you did before or on weight loss or anything else?

Beth: 2:25

at this stage, instead of focusing on what you did before or on weight loss or anything else. Muscle building is actually not totally new to me. I actually used to lift weights in my 20s. I've always been very active, but then I switched, I suppose like a lot of people, and did more cardio. I suppose like a lot of people, and did more cardio, and I say I've always been active. It's. It has changed and evolved over different times. I've been a runner. I did some triathlons in my thirties. I do a lot of bike riding right now and I'm planning for a bike riding vacation and that's part of my decision-making in in trying to put on some muscle and to do a building phase versus um dieting. But uh, also did P90X about 10 or 15 years ago when that was on the phrase.

Philip Pape: 3:23

I remember that that was so much fun.

Beth: 3:26

I've done a lot of different things and I've been listening to Philip on the just following the hard details of what's going on and trying to figure out what's going on versus just cut calories, yeah, so very interested in following all that, so decided to join. But I, of course, was wanting to lose some fat. I had previously, was about 10 or 15 pounds lighter and I've had some changes in thyroid medications and some different things and the weight has accumulated and I wanted to knock it off and I wanted to knock it off.

Philip Pape: 4:25

Cool yeah, all right, no, we're going to. I want to get into each of those, because listeners are like Ooh, thyroid, let's talk that. Oh, you did P90X, and what are you talking about? Following the details and doing the science? So, uh, you know, you and I know what it is. But let's, let's walk through one at a time. Um, I, I, we've talked in the past and I know you've done I think you've done Weight Watchers, nutrisystem, all of that in the past. When was that? And then, from there to now, how did you, how did you get where you are today?

Beth: 4:50

Weight Watchers was, probably has has been, a part of my life. I've never been grossly overweight, though, but you know, like everybody, you're always especially women we want to be thin and lean, um and um. I always thought Weight Watchers was very healthy, but I also learned there's ways to, uh, to get around that, and I'm tired of the. I didn't like the whole point system and tired of the. I didn't like the whole point system and and doing all that, and I've tried to educate myself on on being healthy. I want to be my healthiest as I age and, um, I've been I've actually been counting macros for a few years now. Um, so I know how to do that and I kind of liked it.

Beth: 5:46

But, like all people, it's like I feel like I know how to do it and what I'm supposed to be doing, but it was still the weight. The weight gain was still getting away from me, and I don't want to throw the thyroid out again, but with the change in thyroid medicines and I've used macro factor, I was just seeing my expenditure go crashing down. So you know, I was eating 1900 calories a year ago and biking and doing things. I was lifting weights a year ago, but maybe not as consistently or following a plan as well as I am now, and I can't eat 1900 calories without gaining a lot of weight. And I just watched that expenditure a macro factor coming down and watched my weight going up and it's like things are changing and I need to get a hold of this.

Philip Pape: 6:53

Yeah, so awareness is the first step, right, and that leads. That makes me think what, when you were tracking macros in the past and you were still gaining weight and that wasn't what you wanted, were you? I assume you weren't using macro factor or you weren't aware of your expenditure, perhaps such that you were at maintenance or in a surplus without thinking you were, or you thought you were in a deficit and you weren't.

Beth: 7:15

I was not. I was at macros that had worked for me in the past Um and I was using a different app Um and um when I started getting into Macrofactor and seeing what was going on. You can see just this downward slope and I think it's mostly related to the thyroid issues and I know women like to blame thyroid for a lot of things, but I've been hypothyroid since the 90s, so I've been on medication for a long time and what was working just changed. I started having actually some heart issues. I was having tachycardia with exercise that was beyond what it should have been, with exercise that was beyond what it should have been, and the weight gain and some hot flashes that were beyond menopause hot flashes. So it turns out.

Philip Pape: 8:20

I was hyperthyroid, got it Okay. I mean, at least you found this out Because of the meds yeah, because of the meds.

Philip Pape: 8:24

Yeah, because of the meds and and um, and I know, working with other clients on on synthetic T3 and other thyroid meds, that there's a lot of tweaking sometimes involved to find the right levels for you. So here's the thing. A lot of people are going to be listening and they're saying, oh, so your expenditure was crashing down. You know, on one hand you could throw up your hands and say like that's, that's the end of it, like there's nothing I can do. On the other hand, you can say you know what? It's great that you have the data to show you your expenditures crashing, like whatever app you use or however you calculate it. I mean, we use macro factor because it's the only app that can give you that information.

Philip Pape: 9:00

It's not the app's fault, right, that the expenditure is going down, and it's not yours either. It's just the reality of what's happening. So, um, what did you decide to do at that point? I mean, I know the answer here, beth, but just for the listener, what did you decide to do once that pattern occurred? Quit, be more specific, you mean quit trying to lose fat, lose weight.

Beth: 9:22

No, I just I was doing the trial of Whitson Waits University and I absolutely love all the information and I love the way that you're data driven and I love all of that. But I was like all of that. But I was like this is just. This is just me crashing my my medicines and I need to get this under control before I can move on to, um, losing weight, and this is not the time to be trying to lose weight. And you were very kind enough to come to my rescue and talk to me very kindly and help me out there.

Philip Pape: 10:10

Yeah, I appreciate that, because it's just as not just as it's almost as frustrating for me to see you go through that and then now be in the position of we've got to figure something out. And sometimes that decision is like you decided to do is, let's focus on recovery and um, a different goal in the short term, or maybe in the medium or long-term, while potentially addressing other things, which is a great strategy. I mean, anyone listening if, if you've got and we're going to talk about your physical injuries too, but if you've got things going on you've got to recover from, why add more stress to the situation with dieting and fat loss? Now, if you were burning 3000 calories and it was like a moderate deficit you could do easily. That's a different situation, but that wasn't the situation. So, um, you decided then to come out of fat loss and figure out what to do next, right, and that was potentially build some muscle.

Beth: 11:02

Yes, yes, um, I did finally find my maintenance in um in macro factor and it was much lower than what I would have liked, but it is what it is. Um and have to deal with that. So, um, we discussed it and decided to do a somewhat of a lean build, to add in a little bit calories and try and put some muscle on um, try and preserve my metabolism. If not, maybe keep it a little push up Um, and so this is a. This is brand new. I have never tried to. I've always wanted muscle, but I've never tried to purposefully add in calories and put a build on in that way. So it's new.

Philip Pape: 12:05

And is that because of fear of gaining weight? Is that just because it is new and you're not sure what it's going to come of it?

Beth: 12:15

Yes, it's a fear of gaining weight. You spend your life trying to. You know, I've said that I've never been overweight. This is my highest weight non-pregnancy weight that I've ever been. But honestly, I do feel like I have more muscle than the last time that I was here. I have been here before and it looks different. It looks different. I got to say it's, it's. It's not quite as devastating as it has been in the past and I also know that my metabolism is doing a little better. And I want to just throw one thing out. I'm going to throw out about wits and weights. That was very nice.

Beth: 13:06

You were on vacation.

Beth: 13:09

I started this whole lean bill and it was just interesting because my expenditure did start going up but my weight trend started going down and it was just doing some strange little things there to begin with and you were on vacation, so I didn't want to bother you on vacation and I knew you would answer it when you got back. But I reached out to another member. I just got into the build part of Wits and Weight and found someone that had been through this before and looked like they kind of did the same thing and I won't mention names, but she very generously answered me and reassured me, and so don't be afraid to tweak it a little bit. You know, up your calories just a little bit if you need to. You may need to make a little jump and it just feels like a family, is, I guess, what I'm trying to get at. You were not there, I know you would have been, but you were on vacation, well-deserved vacation, and I just reached out and I got an answer very quickly and very kindly and it was great.

Philip Pape: 14:28

Yeah.

Beth: 14:29

I I just wanted to give a shout out to the community. It's a great community. It feels like. It feels like you get to know people and that they are family.

Philip Pape: 14:37

I love that you said that, because I remember seeing that message come through. I don't know if you can hear my dogs, but we both have dogs. Um, I saw the message come through cause I still monitor that stuff, even when I'm on vacation just on the back end, and then I saw someone chime in and I'm like this is the power of numbers. Obviously, I take one vacation a year for a week, and that's when you needed the help, but I'm glad that you saw the power of having others have gone through the same experience. That's why I made this for us and I say us myself included, because I like to have others to bounce ideas off and learn from too.

Philip Pape: 15:12

Um, not everybody is, I guess, as public or wants to share in that way, right, that's why there's different ways to do this for people. Some people want to keep things private, uh, but by doing that you could leverage the, the, the learning from someone else. So, um, yeah, that's great. Thank you for mentioning that. Thank you for mentioning that. Um, so let's talk about your current situation then, right now, because you're also dealing with shoulder issues, right, and you've got an injury, a slap to lesion, I think was the specifics, some osteoarthritis, tendinopathy and your rotator cuff. Um, what's what's going on there, your rotator cuff. What's going on there?

Beth: 15:49

I don't know what's going on there. I've been very lucky. I haven't had joint issues in the past or any kind of injuries. It was not from strength training, it was from newly being retired and taking up golf Very dangerous sport. Didn't know it was a dangerous sport.

Philip Pape: 16:13

You'd be surprised all those sports.

Beth: 16:15

Yeah, I've done triathlons, I've done horseback riding and I get injured playing golf. So anyway, it's just a nagging injury and my orthopedic surgeon has suggested not doing any kind of overhead presses, not doing any lat pulls. I have not been in physical therapy, although I'm exploring that right now because I want to get back to doing overhead presses and whatever, and it's not a severe pain but it's not very hard to get it hurting. It'll be good for a week and then I can reach the wrong way and something happens. So every time I look at different exercise plans and we're going to talk about that perhaps later or perhaps now, I don't know. You know, everything includes doing some lat pulldowns or doing some overhead press. Overhead press is a normal part of compound exercise that you expect to do. I've also changed my doing a bench press. I do a bench press but I have started doing it on a Smith machine and I set the pins where my elbows can't come down further than my chest.

Philip Pape: 17:50

So partial ROM, partial ROM or spotto press kind of a few inches high.

Beth: 17:54

Just a few inches high, because it does hurt to come down and it also affects before this actually happened back early September. It's been going on and off for since then, um, but it's affected being able to do uh, a squat. My arm does not feel comfortable being pulled back in that kind of position and so I've been doing leg presses, um, and just recently started doing hack squat because I can do those easily. So I've moved more towards machines. I was previously doing a lot with the barbell, but I'm not doing very much with the barbell anymore.

Philip Pape: 18:44

Let's talk through this now, because I have personal experience with this myself having had rotator cuff surgery and also literally just went to my surgeon yesterday just to relate to your story, and found I have, because of my anatomy, my supraspinatus, which is the top part of the rotator cuff tendon, is much more prone to friction from I don't know if it's like the clavicle or the scapula that hits it and he's like, yep, so you might have this your whole life, where there's just a chance that you're going to tear your tendon. I'm like, oh, that's great. So, first of all, there is a great physical therapist I know who's a barbell trainer. His name is John Patrizzo. Shout out to him.

Philip Pape: 19:21

He was on the show a long time ago. He and I chat occasionally. He will do, he will do some coaching for me with regards to this. So if you ever want a connection, um, I know he'll do a free zoom call just to talk to you about it and give you some suggestions. But as far as a few things, a squat, totally understand what you mean. Do you have access to a safety bar?

Beth: 19:41

I do I've never used it, but I do that will solve the problem.

Philip Pape: 19:45

For that then, you could squat normally for the rest of your life, because your hands will be in front of you. Neutral position, no big deal. You don't have to extend your shoulder. Okay, that's check. Okay, now you can squat. Okay.

Beth: 19:58

I will try it next time.

Philip Pape: 19:59

Yeah, yeah, safety bar and anybody listening, that would be the one with the big yoke on it. It has some handles that stick in front. Um, a little bit of a caber bar, what's that? Are they heavier than the traditional bar? Usually, like mine is 65, um, but it depends on the specific one. There's also different brands, like the kabuki transformer bar is another one where it's actually got adjustable angles and stuff to it. Um, yeah, so just check it out they. Maybe there's a what they would call woman's version, which I know it's like insulting these days, but there's a woman might be a woman's version that's lighter, kind of like a lighter barbell.

Beth: 20:34

Okay.

Philip Pape: 20:35

Yeah, and then for the pressing um, I'm definitely not against. Like machines have their place. For sure it can be a huge tool. Um, with pressing use, I think you said you could do incline right, Incline pressing. With pressing, I think you said you could do incline right, Incline pressing.

Beth: 20:48

I was not told. No, I actually have an appointment with my surgeon after this this afternoon. Oh, cool Okay.

Philip Pape: 20:56

Because what comes to mind is there's grip, so neutral grips, and I know you're doing some of this. There's grip, there's changing the range of motion and so even if you do an incline dumbbell press or even a barbell press, you could do a very narrow grip or a neutral grip with the dumbbells. And a lot of people don't think about that. They're like I'm just going to press them, just rotate into a neutral grip and try that out. Um, do it as long as it, as long as you feel no pain, because correct me if I'm wrong when you do, when you tweak it cause you're doing the wrong thing, it happens pretty quickly, right?

Beth: 21:29

It does, and I was told not to do overhead presses that it would impinge on the tendon. However, I don't feel any pain with doing overhead presses, and that's one of the things I'm going to talk to him about. What hurts me more is internal rotation, like taking a shirt off or reaching back.

Philip Pape: 21:54

Yep Internal like as if you pulled your back. You pulled your hand behind your back and tried to clamp it to your back right. Yes, internal rotation Yep.

Beth: 22:03

That's what really bothers me.

Philip Pape: 22:05

Okay, One of the best stretches for that is to lay on the ground on your back, put your arm, you know, put, put your, put your arm at 90 degrees and then just push your forearm forward down to the ground. Okay, that's a great stretch for that. Um, it's also why you're you can't squat. That's why you have discomfort squatting. Is the internal rotation Right? Um?

Beth: 22:26

right, that's, that's. Yeah. Well, that's more external. Have discomfort. Squatting is the internal rotation.

Philip Pape: 22:28

Right, right, that's what that's. Yeah, well, that's more external rotation, but still same idea, um, but anyway. But you're going to talk to him and then and then we can connect you with John If you need to. The point is, for the pressing um, as long as you don't feel pain, and training sessions with that movement over the next couple weeks that it doesn't start to accumulate. You just want to stay far away from that so you don't get inflammation, you don't jack up the inflammation.

Philip Pape: 22:58

So partial ROM, like you're doing with the Smith, is great. You can do that with a traditional bar where you literally just stop annually two inches above. That's called a spotto press. You could put pins. You could also do a very close grip kind of like people do for close grip bench, and just make that your own, your normal bench. You know, tuck, tuck your elbows in and you'll notice that should feel a lot different because your shoulders are hardly getting involved. Gotcha, tuck them in. Um other than that you can get crazy with like multi bars and lots of other things. But if you just find like three or four substitutions and just stick with those, you know it should work.

Philip Pape: 23:34

We can go over more specifics outside of this call. If you want, like, what can I do for this, what can I do for this, I can give you options. That would be awesome, yeah, so the good thing is, you continue to train, like a lot of people would just give up, and you're continuing to train. I actually love it. You love it, yeah, cause you get. You get the result.

Beth: 23:54

Well, I just feel so good when I come out. It's it's a kind of a non-negotiable Good. Monday, wednesday, friday it's to the gym.

Philip Pape: 24:02

Yeah, it needs to be. It needs to be a non-negotiable. It's like eating protein it's got to be a non-negotiable. And you, you actually shared some data with me. You shared a lot of data, which I love. Data and no, no, no, it's great. I mean I cause a lot of. It was like yesterday and I haven't even had time to process all of it, but what I did notice a few things. One is your body fat has gone down and you've gained lean mass, which is body recomposition, and you kind of alluded to that earlier when you said I was, you were uncomfortable gaining weight, and then you said but it's not, the sky's not falling and in fact, maybe that's given you the stimulus and the growth anabolic environment you needed all these years. Potentially, what do you think? Because I have been lifting weights.

Beth: 24:44

I'm not new to lifting weights, but I'm definitely putting muscle on and the whole reason we're doing this podcast is doing the protein challenge. So I'm getting lots of good protein and extra calories about 100 extra calories over what my expenditure is and it definitely seems to be working.

Philip Pape: 25:09

Tell us more when you say seems to working what? Let's get into some specifics.

Beth: 25:14

Um, I had not been changing a lot with strength grains and getting PRS and I'm not making amazing changes in lifts, but it's going up steadily, um, so I'm going to a new level with the lifts, um, and I have good energy um to do it. Um, I'm in the gym for an hour hour and 15 minutes and um feeling good about that, um, but I mean I could just feeling good about that, but I mean I could, just I can see the muscle and I'm looking forward to down the line when I take off some fat and can actually see it a little more. But I'm definitely just I'm feeling stronger, I can see the muscle and it's all good.

Philip Pape: 26:09

Yeah, Not only is it good, it's phenomenal. Let me tell you why, Cause you did send me your data. I'm looking at it right now. You went from a body weight of 142 with 91 pounds of lean mass to 145 at 95 pounds, and I'm just rounding numbers. Basically, you gained like almost pure muscle, effectively, is what you did, which is like like 80% of the now, just to put it in perspective, we know some of that is that's lean mass, which includes muscle, bone, water and organs. So the other thing that changes is water and everybody gains a little bit of fluid when they start gaining from carbs and such. But honestly, to gain that much um, in terms of lean mass because of your measurements, the way we do it here we use the Navy formula and all that is phenomenal, Like that's.

Philip Pape: 26:56

That tells me something there's. There's almost like a newbie gains that you're getting, even though you have lifted your whole life, that you didn't get to experience until now, which is crazy. That are not crazy. It's wonderful. I mean, you're 68. And again, people are hearing this like Whoa, you could still build muscle at 68. You can do it at 78, 88, 98. Honestly, it's great. I'm just saying it's, it's amazing, yeah.

Beth: 27:15

And I mean, I have to be honest, I love being able to be strong. It's, um, we've talked about I'm training for a bike vacation and you know I'm able to, you know I'm able to, you know, lift my bike easily out in and out of the truck and putting it up on the wall. And um, you know, we were over at a friend's house and she asked me to go get my husband to carry in a case of water and I'm like, well, I'll go get it. No, no, no, no, no, you don't need to be doing that. It's like it's not anything I can do that.

Philip Pape: 27:48

Love it.

Beth: 27:49

Um, and I love it. I don't, I mean I like, I like being strong, I want to stay strong. My mother lived to be 98. So I hope, um, I'm hoping, up carrying in the case of water when I'm 98. Um, maybe, maybe not I don't know you should be.

Philip Pape: 28:05

You should be able to, you should be able to.

Beth: 28:07

You should be able to.

Philip Pape: 28:08

I've talked to bodybuilders in their eighties. Who you're like? They're like 55, right.

Beth: 28:14

No, they're not, I am, I like, I like being strong, it's. You know, my husband is just like can you pick up that end of the couch? My daughter recently moved and we have a sleeper sofa and it's like I got it. I'm okay Picking it up and go and it's a good feeling, yeah.

Philip Pape: 28:33

Yeah, sorry, I'm letting you speak, but it's a good feeling. I mean, when people are thinking, why do I do this? Is there something that? So now it's a good feeling, it feels great to be strong, that alone probably motivates you. But is there anything along the line that you've actively sought to get better at, or you've done this for a reason?

Beth: 28:53

let's say Um, just want to live a long, strong life. Um, I just want to. Um, my husband and I like active vacations. We're usually, we're usually biking and hiking, and I don't know if I would know what to do just to sit on the beach all day Not that I don't like to do that, I do but I like being able to do other things too. Um, that's great. I like being active. I don't. I don't want to sit around for my life and yeah and we talk about.

Philip Pape: 29:31

it's funny because some people put themselves in a box with these things, like, when it comes to strength, physique development, whatever, um, where they're, they're almost focused too much on, too much on the process, and I say that in a way. What I mean by that is they're focused too much on I have to do protein, I have to have calories, I have to lift weights, as opposed to leaning into that bigger picture of how it fits your life. And early on when you joined, I remember you talking about biking and, um, sometimes people think, oh, we're the no cardio people, right? Like, like we, we talk about lifting and walking and maybe sprinting, but we're not about endurance athletics.

Philip Pape: 30:11

But for you, that is something you enjoy and it's part of your activity. It's a sport that you, uh, lean into and it helps you thrive and live your active life. So the strength training and the diet and everything supports it, um, is is from my perspective. So what are your thoughts on? What are your thoughts on that in general? Like, why do you love to bike? How does this help with your biking, and so on.

Beth: 30:33

Oh, it absolutely helps with the biking. Um, I actually went out. I, I uh, I'm a fair weather biker. I like a beautiful day and being out on my bike and, um, it's, it's, it's good for the mind, it just makes you feel good to be out on a beautiful day and to be doing something physical and the strength.

Beth: 31:01

We went out the other day and I live in Kentucky, it's been a little windy and weather here, if you ever catch the news and we went out the other day and it was 18, 19 mile an hour winds with gusts up to 35 or 40. And I'm like this is crazy, we don't need to be out here. But we decided to go. We just did 11 miles, which is not going that far, and I felt good, I had the strength to do it. We've got lots of hills and hills and wind and, um, my legs are just a lot stronger. Um, it was, it was actually could make it enjoyable, um, on a not so great day. But, um, uh, the the strength is definitely helpful on the bike, but the strength is definitely helpful on the bike.

Philip Pape: 31:50

Yep, yep, that's what I hear, yeah.

Beth: 31:52

If it was just a little flat road and we're just going slow and tottering around, it wouldn't matter that much. But we've got a lot of hills and we are trying to do some distance We'll be building up here. Right now we're just doing my longest ride is about 20 miles, but we'll be working up to 30 or 40. Probably is all we will, but that's still a couple hours out riding hours yeah, I mean it makes.

Philip Pape: 32:21

It makes a lot of sense. We we hear time and again dealing with athletes or people who have a sport, that strength is a foundation, such that it, like it's an amplifier for everything else. You know it's it, it makes everything else easier. And so when you talk about pumping your legs in a concentric fashion over and over thousands of times, it makes sense that if you can produce more force than the next person who weighs the same, that you'll have an easier time of it. Right, right, just to put it in pure math.

Beth: 32:49

Yes, Just bringing out the engineer in you. Yeah, yeah yeah.

Philip Pape: 32:52

No, it's important to know, though. Yeah.

Beth: 32:55

But it also prevents injury.

Philip Pape: 32:58

That is true, yeah.

Beth: 33:00

Less likely to get injured, whether it's biking or doing anything else. 100%, but I'm thinking in the biking world it's good to have that muscle strength.

Philip Pape: 33:13

Yep, and you'll find this with sports, with BJJ, I have a client who's a competitive rifle shooter. Oh, wow, I have a client who's a competitive rifle shooter Pretty cool and she, for the first few months we worked together, she was doing kind of a group class because we didn't want to touch her training. We wanted to focus on diet. First she had quite a bit of weight to lose, let's say, plus 300 pounds and we then recently switched her to lifting more, like you're doing right, focus on strength, focus on progression, and she's like wow, this is just making the sport my rifle sport so much easier all of a sudden, within within weeks. And I think it's again.

Philip Pape: 33:51

Another thing is the things you want to do in your life, whether it's biking or a sport, or soccer or even walking. You know, walking upstairs, depending. If you're 85 and frail and you've never lifted, and then you start lifting, you can walk upstairs. That's, that's an amazing, uh, life transformation for someone. So you're very inspiring, beth, because people are hearing this and hopefully think, wow, I can. You know, age is not a factor, honestly, if you do this.

Beth: 34:17

It's. It's really not. I mean I do have the shoulder ache and I've never had that before, but it's okay, um, just work around it and and not that big a deal. But I don't want to say that I don't feel that different than when I was 40, but I really don't. I mean I can't. There's nothing that I can't. There's nothing I can't do if I want to, um, and it's great.

Philip Pape: 34:42

So I know you're always focused on what to do next and how to continue optimizing refining. You and I talked back and forth before this recording about your lifting, your workouts, a little bit about your nutrition in your next phase. Where do you feel like you need the most help at the moment? What's the number one thing you're focused on that you have questions on.

Beth: 35:02

My biggest questions are going to be on just balancing everything, because it's very hard. I am taking a total rest day today. I biked over the weekend. I lifted weights yesterday. Thyroid's been cut a little bit so it takes me a little time to adjust to those and tired and learning to take a rest day. And maybe I talked to you a little bit about maybe cutting. I hate to cut back on the strength training. I don't really want to cut back. I want to be more efficient with it so that I can fit everything in and have the energy to do everything. So I'm looking for balance and scheduling it all getting it all in but also getting the rest. I need to do it.

Philip Pape: 35:58

Okay, tell me, let's break down the big blocks of time throughout your week. So start with training. How many days and how long are your sessions?

Beth: 36:25

it's on the treadmill and, um, I usually do a little bit. The first set of exercises I usually do warmups. Um, for whatever I'm lifting, If it's like press, I'll do warmup sets is my warmups. Um, I don't do a lot of stretching.

Philip Pape: 36:38

Okay, so a little over an hour that's. That's totally reasonable. Most people train between an hour and hour and a half. If you're doing, you're doing four days. Right At the moment I'm doing three days. You're doing three Okay. However, I could add in a fourth day and just do it at home with dumbbells Um wait, we're trying to, we're trying to take stuff away here, beth, right, I know, and that's a hold.

Beth: 37:00

And that's my problem. I get it.

Philip Pape: 37:03

We want to do it all we want to do it all. Okay, so you've got three sessions a week. Those are on weekdays. Those are on weekdays. I go Monday, wednesday, friday.

Beth: 37:14

Could you do one on the weekend? How would that work with your schedule? Um, I could.

Philip Pape: 37:16

And I only bring that up as a lot of people don't even think about it. They're like, oh wait a minute, I can make one of my training days a Saturday or Sunday, and that solves a whole bunch of issues for some people. Some others have like tons going on on the weekend and it doesn't work.

Beth: 37:28

Um, but I like the. There's no reason why I can't do it on the weekend.

Philip Pape: 37:32

Yeah, just an option. It's an option Like so I've I've worked with folks, and myself included, who've had, let's say, four day or even five day programs and you always think Monday, tuesday, thursday, friday, but nothing prevents you from doing like Monday, tuesday, thursday, saturday. Or you know like, if you're doing a five day program, you can make Tuesday and Wednesday your days off. You know what I mean. So that's one option. Um, so you've got your training blocks and then those are at a gym, so it's an hour, an hour 15 plus commute.

Beth: 37:59

Yes.

Philip Pape: 38:00

Which is like 15 or something.

Beth: 38:02

It's 15, plus commute, yes, which is like 15 or something. It's 10 minutes.

Philip Pape: 38:04

It's nowhere all right. So it's almost two hours. And then you got your shower and your prep, your bag, gym bag and all that. So almost two hours on those three days. Um, what's the next big block that you have throughout your week where you're doing it regularly and it takes time?

Beth: 38:18

um, so t usually, uh, we go to a track it's a motor speedway track that's open, so we have no cars to worry about that's open to bikers and runners, um, and my husband loves to do that. So we go on Tuesday nights to do that. We're not going tonight cause we're getting weather again tonight to do that. We're not going tonight because we're getting weather again tonight, and that's usually a big block of time. We're trying to get in about 30 miles, which is a good two hours, and it's about a 40 minute back and forth, so it's about an hour and a half of commute. Also.

Philip Pape: 39:03

Okay, but that is that a non-negotiable right there at that one.

Beth: 39:06

That's pretty non-negotiable Okay.

Philip Pape: 39:08

So it's in there, All right, Um, cause you're you're talking about balance and I mean it's. It is. It is a function of priorities and not only priorities, but, um, is there anything you can eliminate? That's like the bottom of the list where I go. Can you, can you eliminate, can you delegate, can you automate? And then the other stuff just stays like it is today, Cause it's optimal, Like your training is probably the only way you could save time potentially is have a full gym at home. You know, I don't know if that's even an option to have, like a barbell gym with some machines and stuff at home.

Beth: 39:39

I don't have a barbell at home. Um, I don't have a barbell.

Philip Pape: 39:47

I do have power blocks that go up much higher than I will ever use and a bench yeah, you said that that's right, so you could yeah, you could take one of your instead of adding a fourth day. Take one of your three days and make them at home and now. So that would save you what 30 minutes from commute, okay yeah, I have time.

Beth: 40:00

It's more energy, is what? Okay, I'm thinking to be honest okay, so you're training you. You train monday, wednesday, friday, with the tuesday biking yes, and then I've got to get in a couple more days of biking. For sure, this isn't a bike race that I'm training for, it's a vacation, but it still will be you or 30 miles of biking in the mountains.

Philip Pape: 40:25

Okay, this is where I'm thinking. So one of two options that come to mind, one is is potentially, um, either cutting out a lifting session altogether and I always hate to say that but if it's short term cause, when is your, when is your vacation?

Beth: 40:38

September. We've got a long time to go.

Philip Pape: 40:41

Okay, You've got four months. I wouldn't do that just yet. Um, that's one option. The second option would be you could split your training into four or five much shorter days, since time isn't the problem and recovery, recovery is the issue. Some people recover better with smaller sessions. Right, If you're doing, are you doing? I know you sent me your workout, but it's um, is it a push-pull legs or is it a full body?

Beth: 41:04

It's more full body. Yeah, it's what I had been doing, and then I started playing with it this past week and I'm not sure I'm happy with where it's at, so we'll talk about that later.

Philip Pape: 41:16

Yeah, because you could do a four-day where the sessions are like a half hour and you do three lifts. You know something like that. Um, that's the second option. The third option is just moving the days around and make it work better, because the biking day is smack dab between two training days.

Philip Pape: 41:34

And that's where I would rather almost like if you were training Monday, wednesday, friday and could put the biking day wherever you want. The long one, I'd put it on Saturday. So since you don't have that situation, it's like what? If Tuesday is like your Saturday and then you would do, your training week would be Thursday, saturday, monday or whatever. You could do the math, but you know what I mean. You'd have, you'd have Tuesday, and when you do, wednesday would be off.

Beth: 41:57

So take a rest day on Wednesday.

Philip Pape: 41:59

Yeah, and just shift it so it's like Monday, thursday, thursday, saturday, something like that. You know what I mean. Right, you can flip it around in your head do Thursday, saturday, monday, but you don't have the same idea. Um, what about what? What about the other days? What, how much? What kind of activity are you doing?

Beth: 42:16

Um, I am walking. Is is up around 9,000. I think it was averaged 8,800 for the week and I'll have to get out and walk. I've got the dogs to walk and usually in the summertime that picks up too a little bit. I know last summer I was doing more around 11,000.

Philip Pape: 42:39

Well, that's reasonable, Beth. So 8,000, it's not even taxing. It's fine. How's your sleep?

Beth: 42:45

Sleep is good.

Philip Pape: 42:46

Sleep is good Stress.

Beth: 42:48

Stress is pretty good Okay.

Philip Pape: 42:52

So let's get deeper then, when you talk about energy. When is it worse? During the week, and what does it feel like?

Beth: 43:01

I guess I was exhausted last night and today and so it's like today is just an enforced rest day. I'm not even doing a lot of walking today, um, because we had a big bike ride on Sunday, um, and also biked on Saturday, but it was that short, windy one, but that was still a hard bike ride, even though it was short, and then lifted weights yesterday and yesterday afternoon I was beat and I should be. I mean, it was. I don't know that anything is happening, it's just that I need to. I just want to make sure that I get like a couple of rest days, which means I'm going to be biking on days that I'm lifting too.

Philip Pape: 43:45

Yeah and that's not the worst thing in the world, it's just if you're doing full body. That's where the challenge could be, so that's where I was going to go next with you, beth, is the split makes even more sense where you have two light upper body days and then two lower bodies, and the lower bodies are very far removed from your biking.

Beth: 44:04

And I kind of like that. Okay, I like a little bit shorter, maybe a little bit shorter lifting days.

Philip Pape: 44:10

Yeah, cause if you're okay with the commute time and all that, it's not a big deal. Some people like to go to the gym almost every day, so, um, that's. I think that would work for you. It's like just a typical four day split where your heavy biking day comes after potentially an upper body day, and then you get a rest day after that and then a lower than an upper, than a lower meaning wait, upper or no, then lower, upper, lower. I have to figure that out, but yeah, there's a way to do that to make it work. Okay, we'll get into specifics. Yeah, that would work, and then you could just follow a traditional kind of like you're training now pretty much any four-day split would work, and you might just have to cut off some movements if it's too much and then substitute the movements for your shoulder. That's what I would do.

Philip Pape: 45:04

Do? I know you use Boost Camp, right? I do so. I often recommend programs in there from other coaches for people because I'm just like pick the best program for you right now. I followed my own and others and you can kind of mix around when you need to. But, um, maybe filter through there on the different things, say four day and this and that and then, or I can find one for you as well. There's I'm pretty familiar with them by now, by now. Or you can just use one of my four days in the Physique University as well. Okay, all right. Anything else that we didn't cover so far?

Beth: 45:31

I don't think so. I think we've covered it. The only thing maybe, is doing periodization that at some point in time here, doing periodization that I'm at some point in time here. I'll go into a and go into a fat loss phase, and I'm actually kind of looking forward to to doing this and and think about doing this again, you know, doing a building phase here get addicted to it in a way right, and then get back into a building phase and then maybe get into a maintenance phase.

Beth: 46:07

I don't know. We'll have to, we'll have to talk and figure that all out.

Philip Pape: 46:10

But we'll talk. I mean the. The one piece of advice on fat loss is just pick a quiet time of year, you know like. Don't pick it when you know you'd want to eat all the foods, right like holidays. Be careful gotcha, gotcha.

Beth: 46:22

That's probably the good building phase, I would guess.

Philip Pape: 46:24

Exactly, exactly.

Beth: 46:25

Thanksgiving or Christmas is that build time?

Philip Pape: 46:28

Exactly it is. It's how you line it up. It works out really well, all right. So I guess my last question or two here One is if let's say there's really anybody listening, but say, older adults who might be hesitant to prioritize building muscle, yeah, maybe they have injuries or medical conditions like you're facing a bit, maybe they don't, maybe it's just a hesitation, like you had. What advice would you give them based on your experience?

Beth: 46:54

To do it. Jump on in there, get started. Go to the gym, start lifting. My biggest recommendation, seeing my friends that don't lift and um, whatever is to, to take it slow. You don't have to. You don't have to go in and lift a hundred pounds to start with on the barbell. You go in and and you know, lift that five or 10 pound dumbbell, whatever you can do and and build from there. Um, it's not, it's not a sprint. Unveil whatever you can do and build from there. It's not a sprint, it's just take your time and just start.

Philip Pape: 47:29

Just start, take your time.

Beth: 47:31

Be patient. It's a wonderful feeling.

Philip Pape: 47:33

It's a wonderful feeling. Yeah, definitely lean into that. There is a lot of misinformation or misunderstanding from people who don't lift. I see it as well. My parents live in the villages there. You know people there in the seventies, eighties, nineties and it's these things, these ideas about I'm going to get hurt, or that's too heavy, or my doctor said not to do this, or blah, blah, blah, like you've heard it all, and it's never too late to start.

Beth: 47:55

So um, please, please, please do. That was an inspiration and I found was absolutely hilarious.

Beth: 47:58

That was an inspiration and I found was absolutely hilarious. My mother lived to be 98 and she was good most of the time. She lived in a house for a long time with steps and we're like do you need to get out of the house? She goes no, that's my exercise, that keeps me going. If I have to go up the steps to go to bed, then that keeps me going. But she moved to Florida eventually and I was going down to visit her one time and I hadn't seen her in several months and I said well, do you want to do lunch? I'll be there by lunchtime and she goes I would love to do lunch but it's going to have to be after one o'clock because I'm going to be in the gym. And I was like and I think she was about 94. Then I was like, okay, that's great.

Philip Pape: 48:44

That is awesome, I love it.

Beth: 48:46

And she did not lift weights all her life but she did walk and she did stay active in her own way At 94, she had her personal trainer and I'm peeking in the window and she's got a dumbbell in her hand and she was going to town and I was like, yes, I like it. Yes, no excuses people, if you're listening for lunch.

Philip Pape: 49:12

That's so inspirational. Um, yeah, yeah, please, please do guys. I mean, the older I get, the more I see it with with that generation and I don't want to be there and, heck, I even have shoulder issues at the young age of my forties or whatever it happens. All of us. So what you keep training, you find a way, you keep moving, keep learning. So if you're listening and Beth's journey has sparked something in you which I hope it has and you want to take a smarter approach, which is just getting started, like she just said, getting started working around whatever limitations you have we're all different, we all have things.

Philip Pape: 49:47

It's no reason not to do it. Maybe you're navigating the hormonal changes. Maybe you're tired of the social media craziness and misinformation. Then try out Physique University like jump in, there's a free trial. You can say hi to Beth. You can see what's going on. We do challenges all the time. A free trial you can say hi to Beth. You can see what's going on. We do challenges all the time. She actually won our protein challenge, which is one of the reasons Her reward is getting grilled on a podcast, you see. So, yeah, just check it out. I'm not going to pitch it any more than that. We'll include the link in the show notes. But, beth, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you for sharing the experience. People need to hear this because it's very important, so thank you.

Beth: 50:23

Thank you for giving me the chance. Appreciate it.

Can You Eat "Clean" Without Food Guilt in an Ultra-Processed World? (Alana Bonnemann) | Ep 328

Join Physique University (free for 2 weeks) to get a custom, flexible nutrition plan so you can enjoy foods that feel good!

–

Are you stuck in a cycle of guilt every time you eat something “off plan”? Do food rules make grocery shopping feel like a minefield? 

Alana Bonnemann, a naturopathic nutritionist and host of the Health After 30 podcast, joins me to talk about the rising culture of food fear and how to escape it. 

We unpack why our relationship with food often feels so complicated, the role of diet culture and childhood conditioning, and how to replace guilt with trust. Together, we explore what it actually means to “feel good” after eating, how to eat with intention (not obsession), and why a little cake won’t wreck your health goals.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:36 - Childhood food rules and guilt
4:16 - What eating without fear looks like
6:02 - Why body awareness matters
11:01 - Can healthy food taste good
14:31 - The truth about eating cake
20:13 - Diet culture vs true health
29:54 - How to know what feels good
41:05 - Change your default eating loop
47:32 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Health After 30 Podcast

• Website: alanabonnemann.com

• Instagram: @naturopath.alana 

• Youtube: @alanabonnemann 

Stop Feeling Guilty About Food and Start Trusting Your Body

Why clean eating can backfire

Let’s talk about the food rules in your head. You know, the ones you never agreed to but somehow feel guilty breaking. Don’t eat after 7 PM. Sugar is evil. Finish your plate or no dessert. Ultra-processed = ultra-toxic. These rules didn’t just appear out of nowhere. They’ve been conditioned into us through a mix of diet culture, childhood habits, and social media hysteria.

In today’s world, where Instagram health gurus and fear-based food headlines are louder than ever, people are afraid of food. Not just fast food or soda, but even fruit if it’s not organic, or bread unless it’s sprouted, or yogurt if it’s not raw and homemade. But this kind of moral judgment about what you eat isn’t helping your health—it’s probably hurting it.

If you’ve ever felt ashamed for eating a slice of pizza or guilty after enjoying dessert with friends, it’s time to challenge the “clean eating” narrative and build a healthier relationship with food.

The food guilt cycle

Here’s how the cycle usually goes: You stick to a perfect, clean diet for a while. You’re “being good.” Then something happens—stress, a vacation, dinner out with friends—and you deviate. You eat the cookie, or the burger, or the donut. Cue the shame spiral. You tell yourself you’ll do better tomorrow. The cycle starts again.

This pattern is common, but it doesn’t actually lead to long-term change. Instead, it wires your brain to associate certain foods with failure and morality rather than nourishment and choice.

But what if food wasn’t good or bad? What if eating cake didn’t mean you “fell off” your plan, but was simply part of a normal, flexible approach to food?

Your body already knows what to eat—if you listen

The key is getting in touch with your body’s feedback loop. When you eat something, how do you feel afterward—not just emotionally, but physically? Energized, clear-headed, satisfied? Or bloated, sluggish, and tired?

Most people never pause to reflect on that. We’re so used to eating based on rules or restrictions that we’ve lost the ability to tune into how food actually makes us feel. But when you start paying attention to your energy, digestion, sleep, mood, and even cravings, patterns emerge. You learn what foods truly nourish you, and which ones don’t.

This doesn’t mean you never eat the “fun” foods. It means you do so intentionally, without guilt, and with awareness of how they impact your body and your goals.

Redefining healthy eating without restriction

So, what does eating well look like when it’s not driven by fear?

• It’s diverse. You’re not eating the same five “safe” foods every day. You mix things up and experiment.

• It’s functional. You eat to feel good—not to hit arbitrary macros or check a “clean” box.

• It’s enjoyable. You actually like your food, because flavor and pleasure matter too.

• It’s intentional. You know why you’re eating what you’re eating, whether it’s for recovery after training, a special event, or simply because it sounds good.

In my own life and with my clients, I’ve seen how adding foods in—especially nutrient-dense, high-protein options—automatically crowds out the less nourishing stuff without needing to restrict. You don’t need a “cheat day” if you don’t feel deprived in the first place.

The power of language and how it shapes your habits

If you catch yourself saying, “I was bad last night,” or “I deserve this,” or “this food is clean,” stop and think. Food isn’t moral. Burgers aren’t dirty. Kale isn’t virtuous. These labels create invisible walls between you and your goals by tying your identity to what’s on your plate.

Let’s drop the labels and get specific instead. “I chose this food because I was tired and needed something quick.” Or, “I ate this because I wanted to enjoy dessert with my family.” These are honest reflections. And they help build trust in yourself—a far more powerful motivator than guilt.

Navigating restaurants, vacations, and the real world

Yes, most of us want to eat in a way that supports our physique, strength, or longevity goals. But life happens. Social events, travel, holidays—they’re all part of it.

Rather than white-knuckling your way through these situations, reframe them. You’re not “off plan.” You’re just making a conscious choice to participate in life. You can still be mindful: eat slowly, stop when full, skip the food that doesn’t taste that great. And maybe bring the leftovers home to enjoy later.

The goal isn’t perfection—it’s confidence. Confidence that your next meal will nourish you. Confidence that a few drinks or slices of cake don’t erase your progress. And confidence that you’re building habits that will actually last.

The 80/20 rule done right

I often talk about the 80/20 rule, and it applies perfectly here. Aim for 80% of your food to be nutrient-dense, whole, and aligned with your goals. The other 20%? That’s where life happens. Enjoy it. Don’t overthink it. And don’t apologize for it.

If you’re not tracking, focus on habits like adding protein, eating more plants, and tuning into your fullness signals. If you are tracking, be honest and include the “fun” stuff in your totals. Either way, the point is to build a pattern that’s sustainable—and that you enjoy.

Because if you can’t enjoy the process, what’s the point?

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever looked at your grocery list and wondered, am I buying the right foods? And you've read every ingredient label, or you feel guilty about enjoying meals of friends because they don't fit your clean standards, this episode is for you. The rise of social media gurus has created a culture of fear around food, where everything seems potentially harmful, from anything in a package to even fresh fruits and vegetables. Potentially harmful from anything in a package to even fresh fruits and vegetables. My guest today reveals why this fear-based approach to eating might be worse for your health than the occasional indulgence. You'll discover what's more important than perfectly adhering to your diet, how to navigate grocery shopping without paranoia and some tips to enjoy eating again without sacrificing your health and fitness goals. Stop letting food fear control your life and learn how to build sustainable, enjoyable eating habits that actually improve your health long-term. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:03

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing how to make food choices in our modern world without falling prey to fear, guilt and obsession. In a food environment dominated by processing, by ultra-palatability hard word to say and with social media constantly bombarding us with confusing and conflicting nutrition advice. Many people are scared of their food choices. My guest today is Alana Bonneman, a naturopathic nutritionist who specializes in helping women reconnect with their bodies and find sustainable approaches to nutrition, which is what we're all about here as well. She guides clients away from restrictive diets and toward nourishing foods that support abundant energy, balanced hormones and optimal health, and she is the host of the Health After 30 podcast, so give that a follow, because there's a conversation with us on there as well. Today, you'll learn why your relationship with food matters more than perfect adherence to clean eating, how to approach processed foods without fear, and some tips to make food choices that work for your lifestyle and health goals. Alana, good to see you again. Welcome back. Welcome to the show.

Alana Bonnemann: 2:09

Yeah, thank you, Welcome back yeah we just had a wonderful episode on the Health After 30 as well, so it's really good to be here.

Philip Pape: 2:16

So on that show we talked about lifting, we talked about nutrition and lifestyle and all that. Today, I really want to dig into the topic of food fear and the environment and kind of how people make choices. The first question that comes to mind then is, like what is going on when people are afraid of food? Like why is that even a thing? Let's start there.

Alana Bonnemann: 2:36

Well, I mean, that's a learned behavior, right. Why are we afraid of food? And that comes down to, perhaps, the psyche of things. Also, perhaps we could even go into the food rules that we've been taught. So this comes not only from society and Instagram and all the rest of it, but also what we've been taught at home. If you've ever heard or maybe you might even say it yourself no, you probably don't, but it's something that I definitely heard when I was growing up up that you need to finish all the food on your plate in order to get dessert. You know things like this, or yeah, you have to. What's another?

Philip Pape: 3:12

food rule yeah, clean your plate. No, you're right yeah, yeah.

Alana Bonnemann: 3:15

My grandmother would always say you know, if you leave any rice on your plate, that's the amount of holes that your partner's going to have in their face when they're older, like terrible, why that's so arbitrary. So we kind of grow up with these understandings of what food is. And also, you know, finishing a plate in order to get dessert, that means it's also putting this dessert and sweet stuff on a pedestal as well. So this distorted idea of what food is and how it serves us and how we should be eating it, rather than what we think we should be eating, becomes really, really difficult.

Philip Pape: 3:50

Yeah, yeah, and there's a should in there that I think is important, the word should and rules, and that really hits me hard because you and I were chatting, I think, off the record about just our history with that. So then the converse of this is like what would a world look like where people didn't have fear, guilt, morality related to food? Like what is that ideal vision If there was never any of this conditioning these food rules, anything else, what would that look like to you?

Alana Bonnemann: 4:16

The thing is you know what you feel good on. If you pay attention, you will know what foods make you feel light and agile and focused and full of energy and vitality. And you know the foods that don't make you feel that way. It's just that in today's society, when that's set up, the foods that don't make us feel so good, so that means perhaps sluggish, constipated, bloated, sedative you know, in a way they're just really delicious and they're designed to be delicious and that's not with your health in mind. That's obviously in the minds to make, make money or make business or, you know, just to basically sell things that are delicious.

Alana Bonnemann: 4:57

This is not to say that those things are bad. Food is food. It comes down to okay, how much should can we, how much do we thrive on of that? And that comes down to the ability to be able to listen to your body. So when you say how does an ideal world look like? It's different for everyone, because everyone needs different things. How much do you exercise? How much do you move? How's your stress levels? Where are you at in what stage of your life depends on how much we need to be eating. But knowing what foods you thrive on and what foods you don't, and if you went a little bit there then you would get a good understanding of what you should be eating.

Philip Pape: 5:36

Two corollary questions come up from this Cause. I love. I love how you got into that, like you know what you feel good on. The first question that comes to mind people might wonder is what if someone has been eating a certain way for so long that, at least in their own narrative or their mind, they don't feel that that's true, that they can't claim that they know what they feel good on, perhaps because they haven't given themselves the opportunity to see the difference? Is that a thing?

Alana Bonnemann: 6:02

So they've been following dogmatically we talked about as well a certain way. So perhaps what's their goal there and why are they doing it and are they feeling their best? And it's often funny if you ask people like how are you, how is your life, we usually will answer oh well, as an Australian, we answer yeah, great, everything's good, I feel well, I feel productive. But if you start to strip things back and you dive into well, how are we sleeping for women? How are you menstruating? How are your bowel movements? How is your energy? Do you need to rely on coffee to get through the day?

Alana Bonnemann: 6:41

If you start to kind of dig into that, then you might get some clues into what's working and perhaps what's not working as well. So a lot of the time when checking into your body which I think it really comes down to understanding what you need is getting in contact with your body, which is, let's be fair, a lost art. We don't know how to do it because it's kind of been drummed out of us or you know, just basically forgotten is our mind takes over.

Alana Bonnemann: 7:09

So if we're reading all the literature which I know is important and we need to know we need to know what's happening and how our bodies function and how different things work in our bodies.

Alana Bonnemann: 7:16

This is why the academic side of nutritional science is so wonderful, but if we just rely on that and we believe or we kind of put ourselves into that statistic of what that certain research says, it takes us away from us knowing what we need, what you need, what the individual needs. So I think at the base of this, it comes down to trust, understanding and feeling how to trust yourself and to be able to let go of things that you think might be serving you, perhaps are serving you but also might not be serving you. What you said really nicely on my podcast was you know you can take everything away but then reintroduce things, start to bring things in and see, you know if your world crashes you didn't say that, but you know. Basically, see if things crumble and I I really agree with that approach and if you've been living in a restricted, start to bring things in and see how it works and then you can go from there.

Philip Pape: 8:19

Yeah. So what you're saying, from what I hear, is being intentional and taking a moment to breathe and think and reflect on your life, because I think people do make the excuse, maybe about their food choices or their habits, and that's okay, right, like people, that's human behavior. But then to say, okay, I need to look at how, when I eat that protein bar, when I eat this food or drink this at this time of day, what is the cascade of data? I'll call it data is what you're telling me.

Philip Pape: 8:50

It's funny Cause we we joke about, like me being the sciencey guy and you being more fluid, but at the end of the day, we're still being intentional and observing and at the end, that's that's what data is right. So, to trust yourself, you want to define yourself and your identity and what's happening in this moment, and then it sounds like you can make changes from there. Let me ask you this you mentioned how food science and the food industry makes food so delicious, and does that mean that the foods that are good for you can't be delicious? Now, obviously it's a leading question, but let's address that.

Alana Bonnemann: 9:21

Yeah, well, you know Michael Pollan right? He's an American-based author. He has a little book called Food Rules, which I mean I find food rules to be a funny name, but he says which will kind of segue into my answer he's got these different rules and one of them is when you go shopping, it's to shop the periphery of the supermarket, so you walk in and you walk into the fresh produce and then on the peripheries it's usually freezers. That's how it is in Australia, that's how it is in Germany, I assume in the States and basically everywhere that's how it is. In the middle of a supermarket is aisles of canned, packaged foods. They're foods with additives. They're there to basically have long shelf lives, emulsifiers and lists that go quite long, and you know they need to be able to hold flavor and they need to be able, yeah, to be palatable. So they do these foods taste good, but they might not feel good also just because of the different ingredients that are in them as well.

Alana Bonnemann: 10:25

I think your question was can healthy foods taste good? Is that what you're alluding to? I mean, the thing is and I will be honest here when I first got into the health space, when I first started studying nutrition, I remember learning about all of the different benefits that nutrition can have. You know whether it was anti-inflammatory, for cardiovascular, for skin, for gut, for mood, for like, all the different things that tricks and tips that you could do in order to have a good diet. And I was not eating for the joy of eating, I was eating for the benefits of eating. So it didn't matter if it tasted good or not. Like, for example, a protein bar, do they taste that good? Like they do the trick to get a bit of protein in, but are they like? Do they taste that good? So you know whether we need this amount of protein or this amount of fiber.

Alana Bonnemann: 11:18

I think making sure that you're getting the right things, but also enjoying what you eat does play a huge like. It plays a huge part on it. Eating, like in cultures, it's such a huge part of what we do. We do it several times a day. It connects people. It connects with yourself. You know it is. It's the first thing we do. When we are like bottle fed or breastfed in a nurturing situation by our primary caregiver. You know they're there with us. So eating is a huge part of what we do and to some extent. Yes, it should be enjoyable and it can be enjoyable.

Philip Pape: 11:54

And I love that. And, of course, I ask a lot of leading questions or a lot of kind of questions from a place of skepticism for the person listening. I love food, I'm a huge foodie. I love to prepare nutritious foods and make them taste good and, honestly, if I'm trying to eat something like, let's say, brussels sprouts, because I know they're cruciferous and they have these nutrients and I heard they taste good, and yet my whole life I've had exposure to only boiled, canned Brussels sprouts that make me gag. And then I try fresh, roasted Brussels sprouts with a little bit of salt and they're divine, like this totally different food.

Philip Pape: 12:29

I think that's important. Like I've seen people comment no, it's not about enjoying your food, it's about fuel or it's about nutrition, and it's not, it's a human experience. So I think that's why I wanted to ask that early in this episode, so that people, you know, give themselves the permission to enjoy food, to actually seek out delicious ways to prepare, to purchase the ingredients, everything, but also understand when we say tasty or delicious or whatever. What do we mean? And if you eat Oreos and they spike your dopamine but then you know you got some rumblies in your tumbly right, like Winnie the Pooh would say maybe there's something off that doesn't work for you Now. Granted, I personally I could eat an Oreo every now and then when I'm in a bulking phase and it's whatever, but I'm actually thinking of it then as just fast sugary nutrition for a lifter in a tiny, tiny percentage of my calories.

Alana Bonnemann: 13:13

That's so interesting. So you see food in that respect, and I guess that's it. You're seeing food as serving a purpose for gain or loss.

Philip Pape: 13:24

It's a carve out. It's a carve out for if I have to eat 4,000 calories, I literally am not going to enjoy all 4,000 calories. Probably that's a different topic for a different day.

Alana Bonnemann: 13:35

Some people will, some people will eat all whole foods and it's more power, I mean, but I would I mean, yeah, I guess I would maybe put honey, or that's interesting because, yes, if you start to see just the calorie impact of the from an Oreo, of what you can get compared to, I never thought about that, to be honest. So I've never bulked, so it's never been, it's never been something that I've had to think of. And even for those who I work with, you know it's like feel good weight, sometimes it is weight gain. Okay, then how can we do it? And I usually do it with whole foods, but I never thought to, never crossed my mind.

Philip Pape: 14:09

Yeah, so, okay. So now I have another question for you, then. Do you think people should be striving for a 100% whole food diet, or that there should be some carve out or allowance or whatever term you use for whatever you know ice cream, baked goods, donuts, pizza, whatever.

Alana Bonnemann: 14:31

Yes, I, I straight up, I say eat cake and feel great, like not. I mean, you're on the same page. It's not about restrictions, but I think the difference between eating a food like an Oreo in order to get a result is different to I shouldn't eat this food. Go back to your first question, because the whole point is like, because that's bad and I can't eat this cake, it's not the cake. You know, if you eat cake seven days a week, your body's going to feel it. Your body's probably going to ask for something like a salad. But likewise, if you're just eating salad seven days a week, your body's going to ask for something like a cake.

Alana Bonnemann: 15:02

So no, and when you eat this cake, you want to not feel bad. You don't want it to be a terrible experience If your whole purpose is to lose weight, build muscle, whatever it is that you're trying to get with nutrition and then you're having a piece of cake or whatever it is, and you feel bad for eating it. You quickly smash it down and then you feel bad for eating it, or you quickly smash it down and then you feel bad for eating it. That's actually equally going into that diet cycle of like I want to get to a certain goal, I'm doing it, I'm motivated, I had a weak point, I feel guilt, I feel shame, I'm pathetic. Okay, I'm motivated again to lose weight again. And it's just, that cycle isn't helpful for anyone and it will usually keep people stuck in their let's call it a weight loss journey or in their health journey in order to get to a certain result.

Philip Pape: 15:51

Yeah, yeah, so so then, how does the language change when you work with somebody? And they are, you know, let's go, let's reverse engineer it. Somebody who's who's been successful and gone through this transformation and used to think of foods as good or bad, or had guilt or shame around certain foods. This binary thinking or moral thinking what does it look like when you don't have that anymore? What is the language someone will use around, say, a processed food that they just eat it because they want to eat it and it's?

Philip Pape: 16:20

not there's no moral judgment.

Alana Bonnemann: 16:21

Yeah. So in order to get to that place of no moral judgment, we need to actually address the language that we're using towards the foods. The whole industry and I get caught up as well doing it. Sometimes we will call it food good or bad, healthy, unhealthy, super junk food. And just by doing that like I went to a cafe the other day and it had clean like the cafe is like clean food, like acai bowl, like whatever it was there and I was just, I just observed that because that meant at this cafe that was clean, which meant the burger across the world. That's not clean, that's dirty. So even if you are perhaps not fully aware of like that clean or not, just the idea that it's not healthy, it's not clean.

Alana Bonnemann: 17:05

I'm going to have a burger, I'm doing something bad. Oh, like, I'm doing something naughty. I often hear that, oh, I deserve a piece of cake. It's something naughty. It's not naughty to have a piece of cake or a burger. If you do it intentionally, as the one-off thing, and you enjoy it, I think that's going to hit more dopamine than eating it and then feeling stress and guilt and shame afterwards. That's probably adding more to the stress and the imbalance of your health in general if you're seeing those foods as bad. So you can start with the language and this is you know. When we say healthy, healthy food, everyone kind of knows what healthy is or unhealthy is, but by just labeling those foods it really puts that judgment on the foods and then also the people eating them get that judgment whether it's yourself eating it or if you're judging other people for eating those foods as well.

Philip Pape: 17:58

Yeah, a hundred percent, it does, it does. And I even have deep seated in my brain when someone themselves declares that they're not eating something because it's quote unquote, unhealthy, and I'm there choosing to eat it. I think, wait a minute, what are you saying about me? But then you know, it's like back in your brain we want to belong, we want to be part of that group and it kind of isolates and singles people out. So with this diet culture because that's really what it is, this conditioning, the guilt and shame on food choices what are the signs that people should look for about themselves, to kind of reflect?

Philip Pape: 18:36

on themselves with this unhealthy food guilt and maybe how it connects with their well-being.

Alana Bonnemann: 18:38

I know we've talked about this a little bit, but just so someone is more aware of when and why they're doing this. Yeah, so I mean the diet culture like I grew up I I was born in the 80s, grew up in the 90s and this is when I think I mean diet culture's been around for ages, but it really hit home. Today we have more of this body positivity, but back in the 90s heroin chic was in and people you know this thin was almost synonymous for healthy. So it wasn't get healthy at any cost, it was get thin at any cost. And I've heard stories of women who used to just drink orange juice and eat cotton balls to get healthy.

Alana Bonnemann: 19:17

Not to get healthy, obviously, to get thin, and so like just the idea to do that and this is perpetuated. So we're trying to get thin, so we hop on any crazy diet to then get a certain result and that's that's backwards. That is not what we should be doing. The goal is to have energy. The goal is to have a functioning menstruation. You know a monthly, not you know painful bowel movements, hair, skin and nails strong. You know focus in your eyes and when you go to work you're feeling productive and you're feeling vital. That's the goal, I think, and also for me, that's again like with this feel good weight.

Alana Bonnemann: 20:00

The weight is actually a by-product of all of those things. I'll also throw sleep in there as well, you know, cause that's obviously important one, but that's, you know, that's, it's a by-product of you optimizing each area of those of that life and diet culture didn't do that. It didn't do any of that because it was all for getting thin. So the first thing is to kind of perhaps be aware of is it about my body or is it about my health? You know, I mean, you put you work with people in weight loss and weight loss. You know making these transformations. So what is it about in the end? What's their true, what's their true calling that they're coming to you to work with? And it usually is about the health, it's not about how they look, although that is the catalyst for people coming in. So that's, I think, the first place to be aware of it.

Philip Pape: 20:50

Yeah, that is huge, because if you're chasing the wrong goal, the feedback loop is not going to align.

Philip Pape: 20:56

In other words, what you do may reinforce that misaligned goal and then you're going to keep going down that path rather than the path you choose to go down. And you're right when it comes to weight loss or even body composition. When it's more physical, some of the most inspiring stories I hear from clients and just people in the general when they start down the path of doing what you're doing is the language around how they feel, the language around how other people perceive them, not physically, but like their energy and their showing up in their health and their confidence, and that can be more inspiring than anything, in my opinion. And then if you happen to have the byproduct of the physical side, that's great. Now, what about something like we talked about strength training on my show? What about somebody who does have a legitimate goal where they're trying to add weight to the bar and they're trying to get stronger and therefore some of these goals need to align with that? But that is physical, not so much about how they feel. What are your thoughts on that?

Alana Bonnemann: 21:53

Well, it's interesting, Cause when we chatted, you were like, okay, this needs to happen. People have to do weights, and you know and I was like, oh, that's so interesting Is that?

Alana Bonnemann: 22:01

okay, you know it's a similar thing, different approaches, so it's crazy. So I take a very holistic approach, very fluid approach, as I said, I will often work with. What is your resistance? What is your resistance to getting to a certain result? Okay, I would just give an example. It's actually the opposite. So it's the like losing rather than putting on.

Alana Bonnemann: 22:23

But, for example, someone who cannot start to get moving a client of mine comes to mind. It's a story of, yeah, I want to do it, but I can't actually do it, like I'm not starting, they're not taking action. It's like what's the resistance there? I get people to literally get a pen and paper and every morning, few pages writing down what's your resistance and writing down into the point where it gets uncomfortable and like why am I even writing about this? Keep writing, you will find the reason to what's resisting.

Alana Bonnemann: 22:58

And so, for example, with this client, she came back to me. She's like oh my gosh, when I was in primary school I was in a sports lesson and I was running and the PE instructor kind of slapped her on the ass and from then on, like for her that was just, it was so violating, and she just shut down and from then on she just stopped doing movement. So to get back to this point of okay, what's at the root cause of you not taking action and you not making change is a really important factor to kind of get through that, understand that and break, kind of break through from that as well, and I think you could kind of see it. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 23:38

Yeah, so resistance. So and the word I use for that is friction it's the same idea of like what is in the way, whether it's some short-term thing you're struggling with or the deeper what you suggested. I had a guest on not long ago Adam Badger was his name, and he talked about stress, and he was talking about how, a lot of times when something happens to us outside of us, we react in a way that ramps up our stress, but that reaction is rooted in something in our life that causes us to act that way where someone else might not. And so I love these ideas of getting further and further, deeper into potential root causes, without driving ourselves crazy, trying to like unpackage our entire psyche on day one right Cause it's a process.

Stephanie: 24:20

It's a process.

Philip Pape: 24:22

But I think that's really important. So let's talk about you mentioned. When we think of foods right, I think there's a spectrum of processing. Is is how a lot of people put it. Do you ascribe to that idea of categorizing foods that way of like, from minimally to ultra processed, and then alcohol needs to be in there too, being a toxin and kind of a unique thing. What are your thoughts on that for people?

Alana Bonnemann: 24:45

listening. Yeah, so there, I mean I think it's generally understood that there's whole foods, processed foods and then these highly ultra processed foods. And to kind of reference Michael Pollan again, because I really like his work, I think he even calls it food-like substances.

Philip Pape: 25:02

Okay, Just to make it sound gross, right? Yeah, a little bit.

Alana Bonnemann: 25:06

But so like, while I do see it like that, I think you know logically I see it like that but in the end food is food, like everything that's being sold at the supermarket is kind of food. So if you can imagine, like I have two children, I'm trying to raise them up to not have highly restrictive diets but to understand that you are going to have everything at your fingertips, like once they're 16 or even like even earlier, like I don't. We're not going to be able to control whatever they're eating. So it's the same for an adult as well. You have access to everything. And if you kind of see it all as food, and again it's actually getting back into your body and understanding what actually makes you feel good, versus the highly processed stuff which, while it tastes good, chances are it's not going to be making you feel good or function well. So yes, and then also on a biochemical level, obviously, when we've got all of these ingredients in these food-like substances, they're not benefiting the body in the way in which whole foods benefit the body as far as macro and micro nutrients go. So I mean, is it even a question to ask if it's out there? No, because they're obviously all available. It's how we kind of associate ourselves with all of them.

Alana Bonnemann: 26:22

Again, I would I try not to call them good or bad, because then it puts you back into the oh, like this is bad, I'm doing something bad. That is elevating that stress level which we want to kind of not, you know, like yeah, and it's also when we call salads good as well. It's just I'm just thinking about it because, like when stress, when stress is involved, stress elevates every single condition, whether it's a skin condition, whether it's a bowel condition, whatever you have, any type of stress is going to exacerbate that. So it's the same thing when you're thinking about nutrition, because so many people we can control our nutrition, we eat several times a day. That's something that we can control. So when we're controlling our nutrition, we eat several times a day. That's something that we can control. So when we're controlling our nutrition and we're not, we're doing things that we think are bad for us, then again this stress is spiked and that's what's going to cascade with every health concern in our body.

Alana Bonnemann: 27:14

Nervous system regulation is huge. So I think, just be aware and be mindful of the foods that are out there and again, and it's hard because they're all delicious and they're all advertised to us in very delicious ways. But understanding what it is that you want and understanding what your body thrives on, and also, if you're on a journey and you want to get there, then you have to be diligent. Motivation discipline can only push you so far. Well, discipline can actually get you probably a bit further than motivation. But you need you need to challenge yourself as well. In that space of challenge you do grow. And I think if you've just been used to kind of having all foods at once, it's going to be challenging to change that. But in that challenge you'll grow.

Philip Pape: 28:02

And this is where we have a lot of overlap right Is the idea that you are creating a sense of awareness, intention. I like the word diligence because it strikes me as an intentional perseverance and intentional decision-making, informed decision-making. It doesn't necessarily mean it requires massive mental energy, especially if you're reducing your resistance, your friction, like it can all come together in a way that's just pushing that comfort zone slowly over time and always improving, just like in the gym where you don't jump to a 400 pound deadlift on day one, you start with the empty bar and you move slowly you mentioned. I want to get back to the feeling good part and get more objective and dig into that so that the listener understands. What does she mean by feeling good?

Philip Pape: 28:47

A little story about my daughter. We have two daughters, 11 and 13. And my oldest daughter, for a while there had some anxiety about going to restaurants and I think the reason was she had a few experiences where it just didn't work well for her system, whatever she ate at a restaurant, because we eat so much prepared at home and my wife is just a great cook and she doesn't use many ingredients and you know we go to a restaurant like once every two or three weeks and it's like all the oils and sugars and fats, and again it's not the good or bad, it's just how do you feel Like. So she would do that and it would get.

Philip Pape: 29:20

She eventually had a little bit of anxiety. We said, hey, why don't we go out? And she just wouldn't enjoy it at all, no matter what it was. And eventually we started to become more intentional, like you said with her about hey, we are going to a restaurant, let's look at the menu, let's figure out together what might make sense and then understand that it's, you know, pretty close to what mommy makes at home. So, you know, give it a shot and then kind of see how you feel afterward. So I think that's a relevant story, but I want to understand from you for the listener how do you know what feels good?

Alana Bonnemann: 29:54

Yeah, well, it's interesting because her that level of anxiety is an indication, like I don't want to say red flag, but it's a, it's a big, it's an obvious sign that something is not going okay. So this can come in, like I mean, yeah, emotional things can come up stress and also we know that our brain and our gut are tight, like the brain access, like we know it's affected and what comes first. If your gut balance is also like your microbiome is out, then it affects your mental health and vice versa. So we know that mood or mental or emotional aspects do play into it. We also need to think about the physical effects that we get, like are we getting digestive cramps afterwards or reflux or just lethargy? You know what's happening with what we're eating or are we getting like super excited from like a bag of Oreos or whatever it is, like the sugar hits? So I think understanding how you're feeling because, okay, like I'm going to put this back down to a very basic thing the body has a life force that like flows through it and you can feel this life force, like if you clap your hands together, force that like flows through it and you can feel this life force, like if you clap your hands together, your hands start to tingle and you'll feel the life force dropping into your body to feel those feelings.

Alana Bonnemann: 31:15

And I don't want to bring it back to emotions all the time, but I think, like a lot of the times I'm working with people, it does come back to how they're feeling, whether they are stressed, whether they have anxiety. Those feelings also have a certain vibration in our body as well. They're not something to suppress and it's really good that you kind of talk through with your daughter. Okay, how can we do this? Because they're there telling us something Anger, for example. We need to listen to our anger. Or, if we're having guilt, listen to that. And what anxiety? What is it trying to tell us and why is it trying to tell us that?

Alana Bonnemann: 31:45

So I've totally diverged, but I think when, like when you, when we want to think about what feels good, you can have the mental side or the physical side of it. Sometimes they're conjoined and then you want to also tap in and listen to that and also perhaps honor that as well, because I think sometimes in your body it'd be like I don't actually want that. For example, if you've eaten breakfast and then you're going out for brunch and you're not hungry but you're eating, to be polite, because it's brunch. Then, even though your body's saying, but I'm not hungry, you kind of override it and then eat anyway. Even though your body's saying, but I'm not hungry, you kind of override it and then eat anyway. So in what ways can we kind of honor our body and listen to what our body's saying?

Philip Pape: 32:35

I think that's the core of it. That piece is actually very powerful in my opinion because if you go, if you extrapolate it to something like alcohol, which is so socially conditioned and, I'll say, twisted in terms of how it's portrayed right as this wonderful thing, and you think of the pressure people put on themselves just to imbibe because they're with people, because of the social whatever, that's kind of the extreme case of it, but I do like the idea that your hunger cues for example you alluded to your context of where you are with people is a variable, it's a very strong variable in your environment and you have control. You don't have control over that, but you have control over what you do within that situation. So understanding why you're making your decisions is really important. Speaking of why, when you go to the grocery store, because now we can get a little practical, get a little more practical.

Philip Pape: 33:24

This is all practical, I shouldn't say it's not, it's all right. They go to the grocery store now and that's a powerful place to be, because that is where you're purchasing all the things that are going to go in your body over the next week or so. Potentially if you cook a lot at home, which I recommend, but to each his own. That balances the. We'll say nutrition quality, cause we don't want to say good or bad, we don't want to say healthy, we want to say like the quality of the food for what you need, and feel with the enjoyment, with the practicality, with the indulgences, like how do we make it all work?

Alana Bonnemann: 33:56

We go to the grocery store. Yeah, I love that. Well, I find, to be honest, I find the grocery stores to be a rather depleting and depressing place. I mean, in Germany I feel like when I go to the fresh produce, all year round I have capsicums, paprika I'm not sure what you call them cucumbers, tomatoes and salad. I feel like the whole year these things are on offer and that is very like. That is a very limited amount of food.

Alana Bonnemann: 34:23

So if you want to kind of get the most out of what you're eating, you need diversity. You need to have diversity. I like to follow the. I like to follow the kind of what do you call it? I guess, let's say, rule If I have eaten it yesterday, don't eat it again today.

Alana Bonnemann: 34:39

So this way you're just changing up what you're eating, and there's some people who don't like having a lot of variety. But this means if you're eating apples like, just change the type of apples that you're eating. I guess, when things are in season, to also kind of eat with the seasons as well. But this is also really difficult. I mean, you can't. That means, you know, for us in Germany, probably in the States as well six months of the year it's winter and you can't have a lot of diversity. There's like potatoes and cabbage. So you need to get kind of clever and see how you can perhaps it's frozen stuff, you know to kind of bring in that diversity. And then when you are thinking of diversity, because you still want to have fun, you don't want it to just be fruits and veggies.

Alana Bonnemann: 35:22

You can't just live on fruits and veg and a good quality protein. You want to be able to kind of have fun. So I don't follow like a cheat day or a certain time, but it comes back to that, really said over and over again, this 80-20 rule. You want to make sure that the foods that you are eating they are as whole and fresh as possible but then also have room for fun. And I think if you've strictly followed something, a high regime, then it might be hard to relax a bit, and if you've strictly just always relaxed, it's hard to have a good regime. But with practice and it does take practice, practice is the progress in this you find a way of what I thrive on and what I can kind of add to.

Alana Bonnemann: 36:10

I think, with the foods that, let's say, less nutritious, the ones that are at least highly processed, the food like substances, why are we eating them? We need to kind of strip back to okay, how did we sleep? Do we need energy? Are we grabbing them for quick energy fixes? Are we coming back from a week of complete, you know, hard work? We're exhausted, we're stressed. Okay, we're eating them to kind of, you know, put down that feeling, or are we feeling sad? Or are we bored and therefore eating those foods? I think it's not necessary. It's what I tried to allude to before. It's not the foods, necessarily, but the reasons why we're eating them play a bigger part in the problem of them. Everyone knows how to eat healthy. If you say eat healthy, people know what that means. But actually doing that is the difficult step, like the actual act of doing it is what makes it hard. So yes, variety is number one, diversity variety and diversity.

Alana Bonnemann: 37:08

uh proportion so 80, 20, and then yeah, with also like moderation it's you know, yeah, moderation is everything as well.

Stephanie: 37:20

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment. It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Phillip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape: 38:06

It's simple, but we do like to complicate things and until you've done it intentionally, you don't know what you are capable of. I mean, that's the way I see it is that right now, as we talk about food, I'm thinking of different foods because it's about lunchtime here. But I also thought what came to my head is the more I personally have gone toward this, you know, nutrient-dense, whole food, diverse approach, and I have a long way to go. Like we all do, we have things that we want to improve with the more I those foods and actually don't crave or want or need the quote unquote indulgences as much to the extent that, like, I can think of a bowl of frozen shrimp with some cocktail sauce as a really tasty, delicious afternoon snack that I would crave and that's awesome. Like, for me, that's great because I consume protein and some taste and whatever. It satisfies the all the things.

Philip Pape: 38:53

So the 80, 20 rule we use it a lot in this industry because I think it is effective. I think the idea of 80, 20 permeates a lot of things. Actually, there's the Pareto principle where, like, 20% of your effort leads to 80% of the results and I think same thing here is that 80, 20 is a good split. But when we say that, how does someone concretely do that? And I ask because we have different approaches. If I had a client who's just tracking their food, it literally is math. It's just like, let's make sure the calorie, like 10, 20% of your calories effectively are, you know, you're not crazy, like half and half like processed foods. Let's say, how do you do it when you're tracking in other ways or not tracking, or however you'd like to do it with clients?

Alana Bonnemann: 39:34

So I focus on what we add in first, like what can we add into your diet? Like when I first start working with someone, I don't ever strip anything away. Like, similar to you, I don't want to restrict anything and usually when you add things into the diet and that becomes a new way of how you do things, it just naturally pushes things out. And while you don't necessarily see that, I mean you like, sometimes with my clients I keep like a food and mood journal what are you eating and how do you feel? So they're writing it down. There, is that awareness there and that assertiveness. But, yes, it's not what you see to be like, oh, I've done this and tick, it's kind of done. It's more of a okay, like I realize that this week I haven't, yeah, eaten this, that and the other.

Alana Bonnemann: 40:18

But in saying that, while we're bringing in foods, I'm also working on the reasons that they would grab for those 20% rule, you know, in the first place Because, again, if your way of dealing with boredom or exhaustion is to go for food, that's always going to be your default, no matter how, how hard you try to stay disciplined at some point you can do it now. For a few months. You can even do it for a year, but if then something happens that just makes you break, then you're going to default back to that. So we need to change that default loop, and so it kind of works. You're working in two ways we're working to break the cycle and also just add in things that are then going to make you also not want them to.

Philip Pape: 41:05

Love it. Change the default loop that hits it right on the head with that phrase. Right, Because it's what is the thing you're always coming back to when life throws its worst at you, right that's the habit you want.

Philip Pape: 41:18

It's not what do you deviate from because of life. So that's powerful In that case. One of the things that many people face regularly is all the social things right, going to restaurants, being asked to go to happy hour, wanting to go to a party, vacation, travel, all the things. And you know there's so many like download my you know travel eating guide, download my travel training guide, and it's like all the traditional things like plan ahead and look at the menu and all that. But how do you get people to become comfortable in their default while maybe doing having that kind of lifestyle?

Alana Bonnemann: 41:53

To honestly, to start off, I don't.

Alana Bonnemann: 41:55

People are like I'm going on holidays to Italy, I'm like enjoy Italy. So at the start it's like that. At the start it's like that, and that's the thing is, on holidays your 20 becomes your 80 and your 80 becomes your 20. And if you're on holidays for longer than three weeks, after some point you probably get constipated and then realize that you need to change and kind of go back to the ways that you're doing things. But as people become more understanding that this way of living, living aligned with their health and I also call it your higher healer Once you tap into something which makes you feel completely different from inside to out, you are unapologetically kind of show up for yourself.

Alana Bonnemann: 42:39

The drinking culture is a huge one, because to go to a bar I live in Germany to go to a bar and everyone's drinking beer and you kind of ask for like a water, sparkling water you know people will say you know like what's, what's wrong with you?

Alana Bonnemann: 42:52

Or oh yeah, you're the healthy and you know at some point, like I stopped caring, like I care what you. Or oh yeah, you're the healthy and you know at some point, like I stopped caring, like I care what you think, but I care about what I think about myself more and I'm living my life in a certain way because I, like, this is how I want to live. So I think you know, when you start, you know in your perhaps not fully committed, then, yes, go on holidays and enjoy it and go to the bar every now and then and live that life, that's totally fine. But for the people who are then aligned with their authentic way of living and say, no, this is what I stand by and this is how I do it, you can then also, but to do that, you have to find what your truth means to you, and that is I'm packing all that uncomfortable stuff that you don't want to do in the first meeting.

Philip Pape: 43:39

For sure, and you want people to fall on their faces sometimes and, like, I saw this funny meme that says, even if you fall on your face, you're still moving forward, right, which is the truth of it.

Philip Pape: 43:51

And since they have a guideline and a structure they're trying to follow. And again, I always come back to engineering words, but effectively, what you're saying right is be intentional. Then you know when you're deviating, because you're being more aware of what's happening in your body. So, let's say, you do go to a restaurant and I say restaurant because that is where some people struggle, right, because it's easy to just over-consume and over-indulge with, even if you are thinking I'm going to have lean meats and vegetables because those taste good, and I'm gonna do this, and that you've got, of course, the alcohol is its own thing You've got the appetizer flowing, you've got all the salads and then the food and the dessert, potentially there for the taking, and you're trying to enjoy this social experience. It's like people are thinking, okay, great, like five days, six days out of the week, my default is this wonderful thing where I'm in tune with my body, and yet I go to a restaurant, and how do I still do that? Right, that's kind of what I'm getting at. People are wondering about.

Alana Bonnemann: 44:43

Yeah, that's a good question, because when you go to the restaurant, like at the end of the day, like when you see food as calories in, calories out, so to say, or I have to eat this many or I can't eat that many it becomes really difficult. Because then you know it's like oh, a beer, is this mention? Okay, but I'm also having this meal. Oh, I don't want a dessert too, and then you kind of it becomes stressful. But if you eat till satiation, like and again honoring your body, I don't want to eat anymore. Or like you know, I'm listening to your hunger cues then do you eat just to like stuff yourself?

Alana Bonnemann: 45:24

And that might the answer might be yes, because it tastes good and like. No judgment there. But you know, if you are living the life where you're like I'm eating because I'm hungry and I'm stopping when I'm full and you're aware of that, then that actually changes the whole entire meal eating out experience. So I think that's kind of how I. Yeah, because listening to our hunger cues and our satiation cues are one of the biggest parts of tapping into our bodies. So I think that's one of the largest parts there.

Philip Pape: 45:54

And that's very consistent with everything you've said today, which is being in tune with that and letting that drive decisions in the moment and not having to artificially constrain yourself via whatever it is right. It's funny you say that because I think of going to an Italian restaurant around here where it's almost all pasta dishes with rich sauces and things, and of course, you can choose to have different, you can choose other things on there, and I know if I have a Alfredo sauce it's probably not going to feel great. So right there I'm thinking okay, my body tells me maybe I want a lighter sauce just to begin with, but even if I do choose to have it, half of that's going to go in the takeout box, Like for sure, because you're right.

Philip Pape: 46:39

You, unless you're mindlessly eating, which is another piece of this is intention.

Stephanie: 46:40

My wife, my kids and I we all have. We have four boxes Every time we go to the restaurant.

Philip Pape: 46:41

This is lunch tomorrow, which is great, because then you save money and you have more food ready to go for the next day.

Alana Bonnemann: 46:44

Yeah, but it comes down having this intention and tapping in with your body, like what we first started talking about. Why is there so much fear around food? And I think, when you're not sure what you should be eating and how you should be eating it, which is aligned with you know, how much exercise are you doing, depending on how much you need? Are you listening to your body's cues? Am I hungry, am I full? Is it appetite?

Alana Bonnemann: 47:08

Appetite's the psychological want for foods, like you walk past Subway and you're like, oh, actually I do want a Subway. That's your appetite, that's not hunger, hunger is. You know you might be lightheaded, your stomach has like some pains in it, like that's the hunger. And so when you yes, when you kind of align with what your goals are and why you're doing this whole transformation, aligning it with exactly how you feel in your body, you become perhaps like more convicted in your food choices and you know I'm making these right choices and there is less of that. Oh, like carbs are bad, I'm scared of carbs. Can't have a cake because, oh, it's bad, and that all will then kind of fall away.

Philip Pape: 47:49

Yeah, I'm hearing that you become confident in your choices, you own them, you become the, you know, the master of your own, your own choices, which is a great place to be. So, as we wrap up cause I think we covered, we covered a lot of great things at all, interconnected ultimately, which is wonderful, and that happens. Is there anything you wish I did ask and if so, what is your answer?

Alana Bonnemann: 48:09

Oh, that's a lovely question. I think perhaps is there and you also touched on this the word holistic. Is there a more holistic approach to self-mastery, optimizing ourselves, getting in contact with our own self, and how can we do that? I think a holistic approach, which is the movement, the strength as you talk about, is one aspect. The biochemical, the toxins, also the nutrition that we put into our body, is the second. The mental and emotional aspect is the third and then I think all encompassing in that is also perhaps I almost want to say spirituality to it, to understanding that our bodies I mean people call our bodies temples you always hear this like your body's your temple.

Alana Bonnemann: 49:00

I feel like your bodies are actually inherited, like a lifelong inherited mansion that you kind of get from your forefathers, and it's filled with habits, these cycles and the way that, the things that we triggered us, perhaps even why we are the way we are, and we need to do some deep work on that first, or at some point to do some work there, because this connects you with a higher version of yourself, a higher, a higher power, which which really then drives you to make the choices, not because you think you should or not because society says you should, but because you genuinely want to be at that place.

Alana Bonnemann: 49:45

I think, yes, you didn't have to ask that question. But when I think about the underlying basis of why I do what I do and how I do everything, I think that is also it, because ultimately, in the end of the day, I would love to see in everyone like a healer in every home. I would love to have a space, a space and a healing area in your house where you have the ability to heal. My dad's a chiropractor and the chiropractic philosophy is the power that made the body, is a power that heals the body, and I genuinely stick by that. And of course, food and of course movement has something to do with that. Of course our mental health does, but then again also the spiritual too.

Philip Pape: 50:22

I love that. I love that. Yeah, I'm definitely open to many of these ideas and to me it comes down to purpose and something deeper and philosophical that we can't necessarily explain. And I love how you said we're connected to our forefathers because we are, I think, physiologically and like genetically, but also there's something that's passed through us culturally and and in some other ways we can't explain potentially. So it's great, the mysteries of the universe, beautiful, all right, we love that.

Stephanie: 50:51

We love that.

Philip Pape: 50:53

So, all right, all right, we want people to find you and I'll definitely be including a link to your podcast, since, um, you know, again, we have another conversation where you interviewed me there. But where do you want folks?

Alana Bonnemann: 51:02

to reach out. Come to alannabonnemancom. I mean that's, if you want to reach out. I guess that's where I hang. Instagram is also there, youtube, linkedin, they're all there, um, but I think the hub of everything I do is at alannabonnemancom.

Philip Pape: 51:17

Cool, We'll make it simple. Podcast alannabonnemancom. You can find all of your resources. You're a very special person, Alanna. I've had lots and lots of interviews, but this was so positive, so much energy and enthusiasm, and I love the fact that we are different in so many ways but also care about the same thing and have purpose and spirituality in abundance. I think so. Thank you again for coming on.

Alana Bonnemann: 51:40

Thank you as well for having me. I also very much enjoy that we have similar outlooks and work in very different ways, but get the same result and also have the same approach. We're always learning.

Philip Pape: 51:53

We learn from each other, so thank you so much for coming on. Likewise, we're always learning, yeah, and we learn from each other, so thank you so much for coming on.

Alana Bonnemann: 51:58

Likewise. Thank you, Philip.

Lose Fat vs. Burn Fat (Randle Cycle, Low-Carb, and Fasted Training) | Ep 327

⭐ Leave a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts (by May 31) for a chance to win a free protein supplement in our monthly giveaway!

--

Confused about "fat burning" versus actual fat loss? Learn why you can be "burning fat" during workouts while not losing body fat.

Today I break down the difference between fat oxidation (using fat for fuel) and fat loss (reducing stored body fat) that most people misunderstand.

You'll discover how the Randle Cycle affects metabolism, why fasted cardio isn't the magic bullet you've been told, and what really determines whether your body sheds fat... regardless of what fuel you're burning in the moment.

We clear up some misunderstandings about low-carb diets (keto and carnivore), being fat adapted, and what's actually most important for fat loss.

Main Takeaways:

• Fat oxidation (burning fat for fuel) and fat loss (reducing stored body fat) are completely different physiological processes

• The Randle Cycle explains why carbs temporarily suppress fat burning, but this doesn't make low-carb diets superior

• Low-carb diets increase fat oxidation but don't produce better fat loss results when calories and protein are equated (in fact, sometimes the opposite is true)

• For successful fat loss, focus on what directly influences body composition

• Adopting an engineering mindset means optimizing for outcomes (fat loss) rather than processes (fat oxidation)

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why burning fat doesn't always mean losing fat
 3:14 - Fat oxidation vs. fat loss
5:09 - The Randle Cycle and fuel selection (glucose vs. fatty acids)
9:36 - Low-carb diets and fat loss
13:42 - Any benefits of fasted cardio (beyond fat burning)?
15:04 - What actually determines fat loss
16:25 - Optimize for outcomes, not processes
17:55 - What you measure vs. what matters = more freedom

Why Fat-Burning Workouts Don't Always Burn Fat Off Your Body

If you're doing fasted cardio or a low-carb diet because you think it's keeping you in "fat-burning mode," this episode is going to clear up a massive myth and save you a lot of time, frustration, and spinning your wheels.

There’s a huge difference between burning fat for fuel and losing fat from your body. Most people confuse the two, and that’s why they aren’t getting the results they expect. They’re told to do things like low-carb diets, keto, fasted workouts, or fat-burning workouts and assume these things directly lead to fat loss. But that’s not how physiology works.

Fat oxidation vs. fat loss: they’re not the same

When you burn fat during a workout (technically called fat oxidation), your body is simply using fat as a fuel source in that moment. That doesn’t mean it’s pulling fat from your love handles or belly to do it. Fat loss happens over time when you consistently eat fewer calories than you burn (a calorie deficit), forcing your body to mobilize and reduce stored fat.

In fact, it’s entirely possible to burn a lot of fat during the day and still gain fat if you’re overeating fat at the same time. Low-carb diets increase fat oxidation, yes, but they also increase fat intake so it nets out. It’s not about what fuel you’re burning right now, but whether your body is consistently dipping into its fat reserves overall.

What the Randle Cycle actually tells us

The Randle Cycle (aka the glucose-fatty acid cycle) explains how your body chooses which fuel to burn. If glucose (from carbs) is available, your body burns that first. If it’s not, it turns to fat. But just because your body is burning fat doesn’t mean you’re losing fat. You’re simply using the fuel you gave it. If you ate a bunch of fat, your body will burn fat. If you’re fasting or low-carb, your body will burn fat because that’s what’s left. It says nothing about the fat stored on your body.

This is the trap a lot of folks fall into. They go low-carb, see high fat oxidation, and think they’re melting fat off their bodies. But if calories are equal (as shown in tightly controlled studies), low-fat diets actually result in slightly more body fat loss than low-carb ones. Why? Because calories and energy balance matter more than momentary fuel usage.

Fasted cardio isn’t a fat-loss hack

Fasted cardio is often touted as a way to torch more fat. Yes, you burn more fat during the workout if you haven’t eaten. But again, that doesn’t mean you’re losing more body fat. Over a 24-hour period, total fat loss is the same as with fed cardio when calories are equated. Multiple studies back this up.

Fasted training might feel good for some, be more convenient, or improve fuel flexibility, but don’t confuse burning fat in a session with actual fat loss. The long-term effect is what matters.

What really drives fat loss

If you want to lose fat and keep it off, stop chasing "fat-burning mode." Instead, optimize for the actual outcome: a better body composition. That means:

• Creating a calorie deficit you can stick to

• Prioritizing high protein to preserve muscle

• Strength training with progressive overload

• Recovering well (sleep, stress management, hormonal health)

• Making it sustainable for your lifestyle

These are the same principles I covered in the previous episode on the 3+3 Model of Optimal Fat Loss. You’re engineering a result, not chasing a metabolic label.

Train for strength, not just fat burning

Your workouts shouldn’t be about how many calories you burn. That’s short-sighted. Instead, use training to preserve muscle mass, drive performance, and shape your body. Cardio is fine, and walking is a great daily movement habit, but don’t fall into the trap of treating the gym like a fat-burning session. It’s a stimulus for change, not a punishment for what you ate.

Optimize for outcomes, not fuel types

From an engineering perspective, this all comes down to inputs and outputs. Your body needs energy. If you give it less than it needs, it has to pull from somewhere, usually stored fat. Whether it burns fat or carbs in the moment doesn’t matter. Focus on the systems that produce the result: sustainable eating, proper training, and consistent recovery.

Once you understand this, you can stop obsessing over being "fat-adapted" or timing your meals around workouts. You’ll get to your goals faster, with less frustration, and with strategies you actually enjoy.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever been confused about why you can burn fat during a workout but not actually lose body fat, or why low-carb diets promise to keep you fat-adapted in fat-burning mode, yet sometimes fail to deliver results, this episode is for you. Today, we're uncovering the difference between fat oxidation and actual net fat loss that almost everyone misunderstands. You'll learn how the Randall Cycle affects your metabolism, why fasted cardio might not be the magic bullet you think it is, and what really determines whether you lose fat, regardless of what fuel your body is burning in the moment. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, certified nutrition coach, and today we're looking at one of the most misunderstood concepts in fitness, and that is the difference between fat burning, or the technical term oxidation, and fat loss, which is literally losing fat from your body generally by losing weight and holding on to muscle. This confusion is often led to questions that come up on a daily basis, especially when I write or do an episode about carbs or low-carb diets, where people say, well, I'm fat-adapted or I burn more fat because I'm low-carb, and it's a complete misunderstanding of what's actually going on, and so people chase down ineffective diets, potentially restrictive diets that are miserable. They waste their workouts by not training the right way and then they get frustrated. They can't figure out why they're not seeing results despite doing the things you're supposed to do. To quote unquote burn fat. The reality is that fat burning and fat loss are two completely different physiological processes. It's unfortunate that they sound very similar, but if we can understand the distinction, it will help you improve your body composition because you'll be informed on whether you're putting your energy in the right place. So by the end of the episode, my goal is to help understand why things like low-carb diets, fasted cardio, other popular quote-unquote fat-burning strategies might not be working as promised. They might have some misdirection in there, and what you should focus on instead if you really want the results.

Philip Pape: 2:27

Before we dive in, I do have a quick favor to ask If you enjoy today's episode. Take a moment to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each month, I'm randomly selecting one reviewer and they're going to receive a free protein supplement of their choice. This is my way of saying thank you for supporting the show, and the reviews help other people discover this show, why people like it and how it might help them to escape the sea of confusion, of misinformation that's out there. So again, go to Apple Podcasts, submit a five-star review, do it on your iPhone or Apple device, and if you don't have that device or don't use an Apple podcast, feel free to throw in a rating on Spotify, or just shoot me a message and say, hey, show's great, thanks for doing it, and that'll make my day All right.

Philip Pape: 3:14

So let's get into the topic and start by defining what we're talking about. The confusion between fat oxidation and fat loss is, honestly, at the heart. It is at the root of so many popular strategies today that are misguided, oftentimes because of this very thing. So what is the difference? Fat oxidation when we say fat burning, right, that is a metabolic process where your body breaks down fat molecules to produce energy, and that's what typically mean when they talk about burning fat during exercise or following a diet or in any situation, fasted training, etc. It's essentially the use of fat as fuel, which is great. We want to do that. We want to use our fat, especially if you're trying to lose it, which leads me to fat loss. See, fat loss actually is the reduction of stored body fat over time, and this is what most of us are actually trying to achieve. When we say we want to lose fat, it's not that we want to just burn fat in a vacuum. We want to lose the net fat stored on our body and we want to add more muscle. We want to lose fat right. We want to look better, leaner, more fit, we want to be stronger, more healthy, more athletic all of the things. So I think what most people miss is that these two processes burning fat for fuel in the moment versus reducing stored body fat over time don't always go hand in hand. In fact, oftentimes they don't go hand in hand. They're different, independent things going on. You can oxidize plenty of fat during your workouts. Going on, you can oxidize plenty of fat during your workouts, but not lose body fat from your body. Conversely, you can be primarily burning carbohydrates during exercise, yet still lose significant amounts of body fat over time, and so this disconnect leads to confusion, especially around low carb diets, keto carnivore, fasted training all sorts of strategies you know, fat burning workouts that promise to maximize fat burning. So that's why I'm creating this episode.

Philip Pape: 5:09

Now let's take a look at the physiology first. I think that's a great place to start and there's something called the Randall cycle. Now I heard about this a long time ago. I kind of forgot about it, specifically by name, until a YouTube commenter mentioned it and they said hey, if this is all true, if low carb diets might not be beneficial for a lot of people, um, why, what about the cycle? Why, why? Why isn't that the reason low carb diets would be so beneficial?

Philip Pape: 5:35

So the Randall cycle it's also known as the glucose fatty acid cycle. It was first described by Philip Randall in the sixties 1963. And it describes the relationship between carbohydrate and fat metabolism in our bodies. So essentially it explains that when your body has both glucose and fatty acids available right, glucose from carbs, fatty acids from fats available as fuel they compete with each other. So when glucose levels are high, your body's going to preferentially burn glucose and suppress fat oxidation right, so it's burning glucose because it's there instead of fat. When glucose levels are low, your body's going to shift to burning more fat.

Philip Pape: 6:15

Now, before I move on, notice what this means. This means when someone says glucose is the body's preferred energy source. That is a true statement, meaning it will burn that if it's available first, then it will burn fat. But of course, if you deprive yourself of carbohydrates, it has no choice but to burn fat. So let's continue. So this is kind of a reciprocal in a way, but it is a little bit asymmetric. Your body's designed to use whatever fuel's most readily available, but it's going to go for glucose first if it's available. That's why it's slightly asymmetric. But it's going to preserve whatever's in shorter supply effectively for when it might be needed later. And that's why the low carb advocates and the fasted cardio enthusiasts where they come in, because they on one hand correctly note that high insulin levels from carbohydrate consumption suppresses fat oxidation, but then they conclude that to lose body fat you should minimize carbohydrate intake to stay in that fat burning mode as much as possible.

Philip Pape: 7:11

But here's the flaw Very important what matters for fat loss isn't the fuel you're burning at the moment, but your overall energy balance over time. That's the key distinction here. So guess what's happening on a low-carb diet? You're eating more fats. In other words, you are taking in the same amount of energy. You're just burning a different type of energy because you have more of it. That's all you're doing, right? Whereas a person with moderate to high carbs is eating less fat. So they're burning more carbs. It all nets out to the same thing in terms of energy balance, and the Randall cycle simply addresses the fuel selection. You know you have a fuel selection dial. Am I going to burn glucose or am I going to burn fat? It's not the chronic change in your fat mass on your body.

Philip Pape: 7:57

So if I gave you a concrete example, let's say you're eating a low carb, high fat diet, right, keto, carnivore, we know them. Your insulin levels are gonna be relatively low and you'll be primarily oxidizing fat for fuel throughout the day. And if you're on keto, you might be to the point of past ketosis where you are what people call fat-adapted, where you just that's always what you're doing. So that's great. You're burning fat, right, you're burning fat right. But if your total calorie intake exceeds your expenditure, you're still going to gain body fat, even though you're primarily using fat as fuel, because the dietary fat you consume but don't immediately burn is going to get stored. So you're just eating more fat and that all that extra fat is now going to get stored, whereas with the other guy who's eating a balanced diet, the extra carbs are going to get or the fat's gonna get stored while you burn the carbs, it doesn't matter. The energy nets out, right. So again, conversely, if you eat a higher carb diet but you maintain a calorie deficit, right? So this is a lot of the people I work with who want a more flexible diet, more balanced, where they can enjoy their carbs, but then we put them into a calorie deficit, guess what? You're still going to burn glucose, primarily during and after meals because of the carbs, which suppresses your fat oxidation, but over a 24-hour period, your body's still going to need to tap into those fat stores once it runs out of glucose to meet its energy needs, resulting in net fat loss, just because you don't have enough energy period Total energy coming in. And that happens even though you're not maximizing fat burning. Right? Fat oxidation at every moment. And this distinction becomes important when we look at how this applies to specific strategies.

Philip Pape: 9:36

Let's start with low carb diets. I know I've already hammered it a little bit, but I want to go one level deep. And then there's absolutely no question that reducing carb intake shifts your metabolism toward greater fat oxidation. We know that. I'm not going to dispute that. That's a fact. Studies consistently show higher rates of fat oxidation both at rest and during exercise in people following low-carb diets, and that is what the Randall Cycle would predict, but it does not translate to better fat loss outcomes, because when calories and protein are controlled, the answer is an emphatic no, there is no difference.

Philip Pape: 10:14

A meta-analysis by Hall and Guo in 2017 found that low-fat diets actually produce slightly more fat loss than low-carb diets when calories were equated. Now, part of the reason for that could be because, guess what? Your body requires more energy to digest carbs than it does fat, just like it requires more energy to digest protein than carbs or fat. So that could be one of the reasons why. There's probably other reasons behind there we're not going to get into today, like anti-catabolism, supporting your training, et cetera. Similarly, and also your stress and metabolism. Okay, enough of that. But similarly, there was a study. It was a highly controlled metabolic ward study. Everybody locked in one place and fed a controlled diet. This is by Hall in 2015,. Found that a low-fat diet led to slightly more body fat loss than a low-carb diet, despite the low-carb diet showing increased fat oxidation.

Philip Pape: 11:06

Now, my point isn't to say that low-fat's better than low-carb diet showing increased fat oxidation. Now, my point isn't to say that low-fat's better than low-carb. It's to say that there's no advantage to low-carb when it comes to fat oxidation and fat loss. Right, yes, you have more fat oxidation, but you're not going to lose any more fat. Now it doesn't mean low-carb diets can't be effective for fat loss either. That's what I want to say. They can be, but not because they maximize fat oxidation.

Philip Pape: 11:29

They work for most people because, number one, you're going to increase your protein intake, which is something everybody needs to do to preserve muscle mass. Number two, it can improve appetite control in some people. Some people actually get hungrier on higher carbs. So having the higher fats and protein helps with satiety Totally true phenomenon that happens. Number three, you reduce water retention, and this is just the appearance of much more rapid progress early on. So when somebody says I went on keto and I lost 10 pounds, yeah, most of that's water weight. And then, number four, it makes your diet, I'll say, simpler in terms of food choices, which will have the illusion of making it easier to adhere, and actually does so for some people, but for most people it actually makes it harder long-term because you're avoiding things that you might otherwise want to enjoy. But again, there are exceptions. There are some people who are like, yeah, I'm happy as a clam on my very limited set of food choices, that's fine, okay.

Philip Pape: 12:20

The point here is the effectiveness of a low-carb diet for fat loss doesn't have to do anything at all with increased fat oxidation and has everything to do with energy balance. Always comes back to that, and the same principle applies then to fasted cardio. I want to talk about fasted cardio. This is an interesting one, because it is true that exercising in a fasted state, especially first thing in the morning before breakfast, results in higher fat oxidation during the workout. And if you have not recently consumed carbs to raise insulin, your body relies even more heavily on fat. So if you never eat carbs, of course you're fat adapted. It's just going to be burning a ton of fat. But this again acute increase, right? This energy selection process toward fat burning doesn't translate to greater fat loss over time, for all the reasons we've already discussed, but I'll just throw another study at you by Schoenfeld, a guy I very much respect in the space. This was from 2014,. Found no difference in fat loss between women performing fasted cardio versus fed cardio when total calorie intake was controlled. So what matters is total energy deficit if you're going for fat loss and not whether that deficit comes from fat or carbohydrate oxidation.

Philip Pape: 13:42

Right Now, that's not to say fasted cardio, has no benefits at all. Again, I love nuance and individualizing here. The first thing that comes to mind is it's more time efficient. For some people. You get up in the morning and you go right. The other thing is it might improve your ability to switch between fuel sources, and then this is an interesting one. Whether that's beneficial in any other way is, I think, still up for debate, but it does do. It does potentially do that it might help you feel better if you don't like exercising, you know, with food in the morning or you don't have time to eat food, you know there's lots of like logistical and preference reasons for this. And then it might have benefits for certain populations with certain metabolic disorders. I never disclaim that that's a possibility.

Philip Pape: 14:26

But if you're just trying to lose fat, you know you have to focus on creating a sustainable energy deficit, and our last episode was all about that. It was all about fat loss. So go listen to that if you missed it. And this happens through your new training. New training this is the combination of nutrition and training called new training, through your nutrition and training approach. Your lifestyle is going to be way more impactful than worrying about whether you're maximizing fat oxidation, and by way more I mean like all of it. In other words, extra fat oxidation from low carb or faster training, whatever is going to make not a lick of difference in your overall fat loss relative to what the other lifestyle changes will.

Philip Pape: 15:04

So if acute fat burning, fat oxidation, is not the key to fat loss, what is Well? Again, it comes down to basic thermodynamics and energy balance. To lose body fat, you have to create an energy deficit where you consume fewer calories than you expend. That is it, and that forces your body to mobilize whatever energy is stored and available right, preferentially from fat tissue, to meet its needs. And again, if you don't have enough calories coming in and you're still consuming carbs, it's going to go to carbs and then it's going to go to fat, but the net effect is the same, right. So the key factors here are then the total calorie intake versus your expenditure, your protein intake, resistance, training and the ability to adhere to your diet. Of course, recovery is massive as well All the things I spoke about in the last episode, the three plus three model of fat loss.

Philip Pape: 15:52

So go for, listen to that, for a deep dive. And none of these things depend on maximizing fat oxidation at any given moment. That is just energy systems. That is just your body saying hey, I'm efficient, you need energy, I need to give you energy. Let's see what's on the menu today. Is it glucose or is it fat? It doesn't matter, it's all energy to your body, right. And at the end of the day, the deficit and the energy balance is what matters. Which brings me to an important engineering principle that applies perfectly here Optimize for the outcome, not the process.

Philip Pape: 16:25

Now, you might be confused when I say this, because I talk all the time about how important the process is. But if we think of engineering where we focus on the end result, the product, the system, the service, the software, we then reverse, engineer and work backward to determine the most efficient way to achieve it. We don't get caught up in optimizing I'll say, individual steps if they don't materially affect the final outcome. We care about an efficient process that gets us to the outcome right, and then we focus on the process, but we optimize for the outcome and for fat loss. This means focusing on the factors that directly influence body composition over time, not on momentary metabolic processes that have little impact on the end result, like I'm not going to tell you to drink more coffee because it might have a slight thermo thermic boost in your metabolism. That's not an efficient way to optimize the process. Think of it like this If you're trying to save money, what matters is the difference between your income and your spending right, not whether you pay for a purchase with cash or credit. That's effectively what this is Glucose or fat, cash or credit doesn't matter. It's all coming from your energy budget. So, with fat loss, what matters is the difference between your intake and expenditure, not whether you're burning fat versus carbs at a given moment. And now I want to address one more aspect of this topic that causes a lot of confusion, and that is the difference between what we measure and what matters. And this goes back to what I just said about optimizing for the outcome.

Philip Pape: 17:55

When people follow low-carb diets or they do fasted cardio or any of these fat-burning tricks, they often point to indicators of increased fat oxidation as proof that they're working. They might mention ketones Look, look at all the ketones in my urine or blood work. They might mention a lower respiratory quotient RQ during exercise oh, I'm burning more fat because my RQ is lower. They might say that they are fat adapted. Oh, I feel great. I have steady energy, I don't have crashes, all my inflammation has gone away. You guys seen these posts by people. I went on carnivore and everything got solved. Well, these measurements do indeed confirm something they increase. They confirm increased fat oxidation. They might even confirm that you have um, eliminated something that didn't work for you and then you just never added, added back the things that do. That's fine, that's cool.

Philip Pape: 18:42

You start where you're at, but they don't predict better fat loss outcomes. They're measuring individual, independent aspects of the process rather than the result. And once you see that they don't actually produce fat loss and you reverse engineer it, you say maybe it's not necessary to focus on fat oxidation. In the end, what I actually focus on is measuring and tracking progress toward the end goal by optimizing the process. For that you know my change in body composition over time, your, your, your trend, weight, your measurements, your photos, your, maybe even body fat.

Philip Pape: 19:14

I'm not a big fan of measuring body fat, but there are ways to do body fat trends that are helpful. Um, has your strength gone up or down? Have you? How are your energy levels, your hunger, your well-being? And yeah, these are outcomes. And by outcome I don't just mean at the end of the day, did you lose 20 pounds six months from now, I mean all the things that come from your day-to-day actions in optimizing the process. Are you adherent to your calorie and protein targets? That is an outcome of the process of being consistent in hitting your targets. So, anyway, I can go on, but I think it's important to understand that difference Fat burning, fat loss two different things.

Philip Pape: 19:51

And this gives you more freedom once you understand that, with your nutrition, with your training or with your new training, just kidding. And that's what matters, right, what matters is your energy deficit. It makes it simple. It actually makes it really simple, and I'm kind of hitting again on some of the messages from the last episode which, again, I highly recommend listening if you didn't. But when you know that what matters is the energy deficit, it actually frees you in a lot of ways. It frees you with your meal timing. You could eat when your schedule and preferences match. You can include carbs I mean, that's the big one that comes to mind If you enjoy them, if they fuel your training, if you tolerate them absolutely. It informs your training.

Philip Pape: 20:34

You're not going to be choosing movement or training for fat burning. You're going to do something that supports your real goal, which is strength, muscle, athleticism, whatever, and then you can find a diet that works for you, not based on some metabolic theory that doesn't actually produce the results, it doesn't optimize for the result and that's much more enjoyable, in my opinion and they're going to produce better results because you're going to sustain them. That's what we're going for, right? The most optimal diet for fat loss is that one that you can stick with. I can say that to the cows come home.

Philip Pape: 20:59

Some people won't accept it. They want to cut their foods. They want to claim that fat adapted makes them superior in some way for fat burning, and it doesn't right. Energy balance is where it's at. All the other things are important for other reasons for health, for strength, et cetera. But today we wanted to talk about the difference between fat loss and fat burning, right? So, to recap, fat oxidation burning fat for fuel and fat loss, which is reducing stored body fat, are distinct physiological processes that don't necessarily go hand in hand. The RAND cycle look it up if you'd like explains why carb intake suppresses fat oxidation, but it doesn't prevent fat loss, because it's the energy balance that matters. Low-carb diets, fasted cardio they do increase fat oxidation, but they don't produce any more fat loss and some studies show they actually produce less.

Philip Pape: 21:48

For successful fat loss, you're going to focus on the factors that influence body composition over time. That's what's important for fat loss. Go listen to my last episode, the three plus three model of fat loss, for details. And then adapting an engineering mindset like we do here, means optimizing for the outcomes over days, weeks and months rather than optimizing for the process itself. The bottom line is that I don't want you to get caught up in chasing fat burning, because what's going to happen is you're going to do restrictive, weird, cult-like approaches. I'm sorry to put it that way, but you are. You're going to fall into a tribe. That's all about fat burning and you're actually not going to lose fat. And I want you to lose fat right. I want you to lose fat doing something that works for you, that feels great, that's good for your body, your preferences, your lifestyle, that's it All right.

Philip Pape: 22:32

If you found today's episode helpful, please take a moment to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts and be entered for a random selection of one winner each month to receive a free protein supplement of their choice. And it means a lot to me when people let me know what they think of the show, and it means a lot to others when they understand what they're getting into, for better or worse. Just go to Apple Podcasts on your Apple device, search for Wits and Weights, click ratings and reviews and leave your feedback. Takes about one minute, but it makes a huge difference, so I really appreciate it. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, when it comes to fat loss, it is not about burning fat in the moment. It's about creating the conditions for your body to lose fat over time. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I will talk to you next time. Bye.

The 3+3 Model of Optimal Fat Loss | Ep 326

Download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide to implement these principles with exact calorie and macro targets:
https://www.witsandweights.com/free/nutrition-101-guide

--

Tired of regaining the weight or losing muscle every time you diet? Sick of feeling like garbage during fat loss phases?

Today I'm breaking down The 3+3 Model, a science-based framework for optimal fat loss that separates what you absolutely need from what's just nice to have.

Learn the 3 foundational elements you must have in place for effective fat loss (the non-negotiables), plus 3 powerful enhancers that can take your results to the next level (the optimizers).

This isn't about suffering through chicken and broccoli or earning your carbs with cardio. It's about engineering a fat loss process that preserves your hard-earned muscle, maintains your metabolic rate, and actually feels sustainable.

Main Takeaways:

• The 3 Non-Negotiables form the foundation of effective fat loss

• The 3 Optimizers enhance your results once the foundation is in place

• Weight loss is not the same as fat loss – this model ensures you lose fat while preserving your hard-earned muscle

• A properly executed fat loss phase can actually improve your body's future muscle-building capacity through enhanced insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning

Timestamps:

0:01 - Weight loss vs. fat loss and The 3+3 Model
4:12 - Non-Negotiable #1
7:41 - Non-Negotiable #2
11:02 - Non-Negotiable #3
15:05 - Optimizer #1
17:55 - Optimizer #2
20:56 - Optimizer #3
24:36 - How to put everything together
27:42 - Why a proper fat loss phase improves future muscle gain
29:11 - Final recap and tips to implement

The Fat Loss Framework That Actually Works Long-Term

Why most weight loss methods fail

Too many people jump into a diet with good intentions, drop weight quickly, and end up looking and feeling worse: skinny-fat, tired, hungry, and frustrated. That’s because most fat loss approaches don’t actually prioritize fat loss. They just cut calories and hope for the best. That means losing muscle, tanking your metabolism, and almost inevitably regaining the weight (plus some).

This episode breaks down the 3+3 Model of Optimal Fat Loss, a framework I’ve refined over years of coaching, research, and helping real people get results that stick. It’s simple, evidence-based, and scalable. We’ll cover the 3 non-negotiables you need in place before any fat loss phase, and 3 optional optimizers that can take your results to the next level.

The 3 Non-Negotiables for Fat Loss

1. High Protein Intake

You’ve heard this before, but it bears repeating: protein is the cornerstone of a successful fat loss phase. Aim for 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of body weight. Here’s why:

• Preserves lean muscle while dieting (anti-catabolic)

• Reduces hunger and cravings (high satiety)

• Increases calorie burn due to its high thermic effect

If you’re not tracking your intake, chances are you’re not getting enough. Most people overestimate how much they eat. Start tracking and aim for protein in every meal.

2. Resistance Training with Progressive Overload

If you're not lifting, you're likely losing muscle. And that means your weight loss isn’t fat loss. Your body will only keep what it’s told to keep. Send the signal to preserve muscle by lifting 3-5x per week, emphasizing compound movements and pushing for progressive overload: more reps, more weight, more intensity over time.

During a deficit, you might not always make gains, but you need to train as if you are. That effort is what tells your body to retain muscle while burning fat.

3. Recovery

Recovery often gets overlooked, but it’s the glue that holds everything together. You can’t build or preserve muscle, control hunger, or keep stress in check without it. Prioritize:

• Sleep: Aim for 7-9 quality hours

• Stress management: Avoid overtraining, manage work/life stress

• Rest days and light activity (like walking)

Even a perfect diet and training plan will fall apart without proper recovery. Fat loss is a stressor, and too much stress means your body clings to fat and sheds muscle.

The 3 Optimizers to Enhance Results

1. Refeeds or Diet Breaks

Strategic refeeds (1-2 days at maintenance) or diet breaks (1-2 weeks) can:

• Improve diet adherence

• Replenish glycogen for training performance

• Temporarily support leptin and thyroid hormone levels

This is especially helpful for leaner folks or anyone experiencing mental fatigue or stalled progress. You don’t need them all the time, but used wisely, they make dieting more sustainable.

2. Creatine Monohydrate

Creatine is a well-researched, effective supplement to support:

• Strength and performance in the gym

• Muscle cell hydration (which may reduce breakdown)

• Cognitive benefits over the long term

Take 5g per day, every day, and let your body stabilize before your fat loss phase to avoid scale confusion from initial water retention.

3. Fiber and Micronutrient Density

Most people think about calories, protein, and maybe carbs. But if your diet lacks fiber and micronutrients, you’re making fat loss harder than it needs to be.

• Fiber (25-35g/day) improves satiety, digestion, and blood sugar regulation

• Micronutrients support metabolism, energy, and hormonal balance

Start by adding colorful fruits and vegetables, legumes, and whole grains (as tolerated). If you're afraid of carbs or plants because of what you saw online, reconsider. Real food works.

Final Thoughts

Most people start with hacks, gimmicks, or extreme diets and skip the actual foundation. The 3+3 Model flips that: start with what matters most (protein, training, recovery), and only then layer in the extras if needed. That’s how you make fat loss work without misery.

And remember: fat loss is just a phase. When done right, it sets you up for long-term success, better muscle gain afterward, and a more resilient metabolism.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Have you noticed how most people lose weight but they end up looking skinny, fat rather than lean and athletic? Or maybe you've tried to lose weight yourself and felt weak, exhausted, constantly hungry. You gain the weight back. That's because there's a massive difference between just losing weight and losing fat while preserving muscle, and most people get this wrong. Today I'm breaking down what I call the 3 plus 3 model. This is a science-based framework to simplify fat loss so it's effective and sustainable. You're going to learn three foundational elements you absolutely need for fat loss and then three enhancements or optimizers that can improve your results. It is about working with your body's physiology to shed fat while maintaining your strength, energy and sanity.

Philip Pape: 0:58

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, certified nutrition coach, and today we're tackling a topic that confuses and frustrates a lot of people Fat loss, just fat loss in general, not weight loss, but specifically fat loss while preserving lean muscle tissue. Because here's the problem Most fat loss approaches or I should say weight loss approaches focus on creating a calorie deficit without any regard for body composition, metabolic health or long-term sustainability. Meaning, can you stick with this diet for a long time, and that's why so many people end up losing muscle along with fat, whether they're doing this naturally or with weight loss medications, and that tanks their metabolism. It ultimately results in regaining everything that they lost, plus some extra, and having higher body fat in the end. But it doesn't have to be this way. By understanding the science and implementing a framework, you can optimize fat loss for the results you want with less suffering, and that is what we're covering today with the three plus three model of optimal fat loss a way to simplify three things you must do and three things you can do to optimize. For the folks who are brand new to this, or even if you need a refresher and wanna do it the right way Before we get into it, if you wanna take a deeper dive into nutrition for yourself and set up your calories, your macros, your meal timing and all of that, I created a free guide that complements today's episode perfectly.

Philip Pape: 2:30

It's my Nutrition 101 for Body Composition Guide, again totally free, gives you a breakdown of how to set all this up, whether you want to lose fat or build muscle. Download it using the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom. Slash free to get a copy of that and many, many other guides, but the easiest way is to click the link in the show notes to get my nutrition one-on-one for body composition guide. All right, let's break down the three plus three model of optimal fat loss. And this is just a fancy name for a framework that I've refined through the years of coaching clients and studying the literature and making this podcast. So I'm hoping this ends up being kind of a definitive episode for hey start here when it comes to fat loss.

Philip Pape: 3:11

So what makes this different is it isn't just a list of tips. It isn't, you know, random workout recommendations. It is a hierarchical framework that distinguishes between what's absolutely necessary versus what can enhance your results. So, right off the bat, I'm trying to simplify it for you so that you don't get bogged down in all the confusion, all the information out there, and you can stick with what matters the most. So I've got two categories.

Philip Pape: 3:35

First, we have the three non-negotiables, and these are the foundational elements that must be in place for optimal fat loss. If you skip these, you are setting yourself up for failure, regardless of what else you do, and you will not lose fat. You might lose weight, but you'll lose muscle too. So that's the important distinction. Second, we have the three optimizers. These are strategies to enhance your results once you have the foundation. Some people jump to these first. Do not do that. Wait till you have the three non-negotiables in place. These aren't even required, these optimizers, but they can improve, sometimes significantly, the outcomes for most people.

Philip Pape: 4:12

So let's start with the non-negotiables. The first one is maintaining a high protein intake throughout your fat loss phase. Now, you thought I was going to mention resistance training, but honestly, if you can't get your nutrition dialed in early on, you're going to get frustrated when you start training due to some lack of energy or a feeling like you're not making progress building muscle. So, even though I often go on podcasts and say everyone should be strength training, that's the thing people are missing, I think.

Philip Pape: 4:42

When you are setting yourself up right now for fat loss from step one, one of the most accessible and important steps is increasing your protein, and that means consuming between 0.7 and one gram of protein per pound of body weight. You can go above that, for sure. There's diminishing returns above the one gram per pound, but I would try to get within that 0.7 to one If you're very lean, or if you're deep into a deficit, or if you're training really, really hard, you might want a higher end of that range or even above that. Or if you just love protein, you can eat more than that. It's fine.

Philip Pape: 5:15

But getting that minimum of 0.7 is so crucial during fat loss. And it's crucial for three reasons. The first reason is that protein is anti-catabolic. It is, of course, anabolic, meaning it helps build muscle, but it's also anti-catabolic. It sends a signal to your body to hold onto the muscle tissue you have when you go into that calorie deficit. This is why you often eat more protein in fat loss than when you're not in fat loss, and it sounds counterintuitive to people and it makes it a little bit more challenging to hit your fats and carbs. But it's so important for your body to tell it hey, go ahead and burn through your fat stores, don't burn through the muscle, right? Because we're trying to avoid that. We're just trying to burn fat.

Philip Pape: 5:59

The second thing is protein is very satiating. Research consistently shows high-protein diets reduce hunger. They increase feelings of fullness. Anybody who's doubled their protein knows this. When you're eating fewer calories in fat loss which is where we're trying to go with this, managing hunger becomes one of the most critical things to stick with the diet, and protein is your best ally here. Besides fiber, I mean protein is it? Third, protein has the highest thermic effect of feeding of all the macronutrients. What that means is your body will burn more calories simply because you're consuming more. Protein burns about 20 to 30% of its calories just to be digested and processed, compared to only about 5 to 10% for carbs and close to 0% for fats, and this gives you a bit of a metabolic advantage and it adds up over time. So, again, we want to get that protein up to a reasonable level before you hit fat loss, so that during fat loss it's much easier to hold on to muscle.

Philip Pape: 6:55

And you know I can't tell you how many times I've met people who thought they were eating quote unquote plenty of protein. And then they track their intake, they use macro factor or really any way to track, and you see that you are probably dramatically overestimating how much you consume. And if you think they're getting enough, just log food for a week and get back to me and let me know what you found. Also, don't forget about distributing your protein throughout the day. It's not, I'll say, required for fat loss, but it slightly optimizes your results. But again, this is not required for most people. They're going to want to have protein in every meal anyway, for the satiety, for the balance, for the blood sugar, for everything else. So that's non-negotiable Number one is get that protein up to at least 0.7 grams per pound of your body weight.

Philip Pape: 7:41

Non-negotiable number two, of course, here it is Resistance training with progressive overload. All right, this is the second non-negotiable. And that means lifting weights three to five times. I mean you could lift six times a week too, but at least three to four, but up to five times per week, with an emphasis, initially at least, on compound movements like squats, hinges, presses, pulls, tracking your performance and striving to maintain or increase your strength over time. Now you're going to be doing this at first not in a calorie deficit, but then, when you are in a calorie deficit, you are still going to intend and train hard to do this, to increase your numbers, even if eventually they potentially stall out because of the lack of resources. That's okay. You're basically giving your body the signal to hold onto muscle, whereas if you were sedentary and not training, your body is going to say, well, fat protein or fat muscle doesn't matter, it's all energy I'm going to burn what I need to burn to lose the weight you're asking me to lose.

Philip Pape: 8:44

Muscle tissue is metabolically expensive for your body to maintain when you're in a calorie deficit. Your body is trying to conserve energy right. It downregulates everything down to the cellular level, including your hormones, and it will happily shed muscle if it doesn't perceive a need to keep it. So for those of you thinking, ah yeah, I train, it's not consistent, whatever, I just want to lose weight, you're going to be in a world of hurt because you're going to just get skinny, fat, fluffy. You're going to have more body fat. That's not what we're trying to do.

Philip Pape: 9:09

Resistance training provides that signal that muscle's necessary and should be preserved. But it is not enough to just go through the motions. Please listen to me on this. So many of you are not training properly or hard enough or consistently enough. Progressive overload is the term we use. Whether you like the term or not, whether it's a misnomer, what it means is the continuous challenge to increase weight, reps and or volume. So something is going up that represents the increase in strength, and I say strength even though we're trying to build muscle. Hold on to muscle whatever. Ultimately, it's expressed through the ability to do more in the gym and that will keep the signal strong.

Philip Pape: 9:48

One of the mistakes I see people doing during a cut, during weight or fat loss, is reducing their training intensity. They think, well, I have less energy, so I should lift lighter. This is exactly wrong. It's exactly wrong. While you might need to reduce overall volume for your recovery, if your recovery is compromised, and that's okay maintaining the load, maintaining the intensity, the signal to your body, high enough percentage of your max is absolutely needed, because your goal isn't to burn calories during fat loss with your training, it's to preserve your muscle mass and strength. That is the main goal. We use the diet to manipulate the calories right, it's an input and output side of the equation and we don't want to become weaker and weaker and then we still have to eat less anyway. Plus, we lose muscle right, and I've had clients who were surprised to find they could actually gain strength while losing fat. And if you're newer, that's not unusual to gain strength, to gain muscle while you're losing fat, especially if you keep the deficit reasonable just by maintaining that training intensity and ensuring adequate protein intake right, your body is very adaptable when you give it the right signals. That's what we're doing. We're telling it to adapt in the way we want, not the way just on a whim. All right.

Philip Pape: 11:02

So the third non-negotiable is recovery. Now, this is a big topic because it includes, I'll say, all the other things that I work with clients on Sleep, stress management, hormonal health, and I find that these are even more individualized only because everybody's lives are so different that, compared to, say, training and food, these have a lot more variability. Compared to, say, training and food, these have a lot more variability and that's why it's important to personalize this. So what we mean by recovery is getting enough high-quality sleep, managing stress to a level that doesn't overwhelm you, that doesn't wreck your sleep Actually, they go hand in hand or wreck your cortisol, make it harder to lose fat because your metabolism is lower than it could have been. It's avoiding overreaching and overtraining by monitoring feedback like, um, I should say, soreness, right, your energy, how does it feel when you go into the gym and come out of the gym, recovery days, et cetera. Right, and of course it should be obvious why this is important.

Philip Pape: 12:06

But just to jump into the science of it, we start with sleep right. Poor sleep is going to dramatically increase your hunger hormone, ghrelin. It's going to decrease your satiety hormone, leptin. So this is a perfect double whammy for cravings, for overeating. You're going to seek out high energy foods with lots of fat, sugars, carbs and not the beneficial kind for you, generally very calorie dense foods usually, and then it's going to be harder to stick to your diet. Or you're going to be sticking to it with lots of willpower and then feeling very, very hungry. Either way is not great. So that's sleep right and the hours of sleep. There's a lot of research on that. It varies significantly by person. Usually you hear seven to nine. Some people can do okay as low as six and a half. Some people need that eight or nine hours of sleep. But then the quality is important and that's a whole other topic.

Philip Pape: 12:57

Stress is the other thing. Chronic stress and your perceived stress is going to elevate your cortisol. Cortisol is great signal for your body to try to hold onto fat, especially around your midsection, and so where's your body going to get the energy from Breaking down muscle tissue? So even if you are doing the other things, if stress is really high and you're trying to lose fat, you can still potentially lose muscle because of that stress.

Philip Pape: 13:25

And then hormonal adaptation is a real thing. That happens during fat loss, and it gets, I'll say, more exacerbated the longer you go or the more aggressively you diet, because your body's really smart. It's going to adjust your hormone levels to fight back against what it perceives as starvation. You know the effect of what you're doing to it. You're depriving it of resources to maintain where it was, and so something's going to have to give. So your body says you know what? Let's save some energy here, let's save some energy there. Downregulate your thyroid, downregulate your reproductive hormones things that aren't as important, let's say. And there you go. So proper recovery helps protect against these to the greatest extent you can, knowing that some of this is inevitable. No matter what, even in a perfect situation, you're still going to have metabolic adaptation from hormones.

Philip Pape: 14:07

The key here is, though, we're trying to mitigate those. So in all of these I would say, if you had to pick one, it would be sleep. It's probably the most underrated factor in the entire fat loss equation, even training and protein, because I've had clients who've made more progress just by improving sleep quality than any other dietary invention or modifying their training. Now, they're usually already training consistently and they're eating reasonably well, but the reason here is that the sleep directly affects your hormone regulation, which directly affects your hunger, your energy for your training and then your recovery, and it all viciously or beneficially cycles together. So those are the three non-negotiables protein, training and recovery. Those are the three non-negotiables protein, training and recovery. Those are the foundation for fat loss. Honestly, you could end the podcast right here, if you've never done this before, and focus on those. Pick one, start with it, roll in the rest, keep going. That is how I help clients in the first couple months of our journey together, before we actually go into a diet.

Philip Pape: 15:05

Okay, now, once you then are in your fat loss phase, or preparing for it, and you've done this before, or you've got the foundational habits dialed in and you want to optimize further, I'm going to give you three extra things to consider. Okay, optimizer number one is strategic refeeds or diet breaks. Now, a refeed is just usually a one or two day period where you eat up to your maintenance by increasing your carbohydrates. A diet break is just a longer period of doing that, usually one to two weeks or even longer. I mean, it could be indefinite and then you're just at maintenance. And these strategies while, yes, they do mitigate some of the hormonal adaptation to your leptin, your thyroid hormones, your reproductive hormones, those are just temporary. More importantly, they reduce your perceived mental fatigue, which helps you improve adherence right, be able to adhere to the diet, and they can help you restore some of your training intensity during that refeed.

Philip Pape: 16:07

We also see that research like well, there was the Matador study and there's also a study that Bill Campbell did that I talked about recently on the show called I think it was called the Weekend Diet. Look for that in the podcast feed, very recent. It suggests that again, not the Matador, but that particular study suggests that your lean mass preservation may actually increase if you use two-day refeeds every week, the catch being you're going to eat even fewer calories on the other five days to stay in the same deficit or you can go to slower weight of loss. So anyway, just to simplify this whole optimizer, think about whether you would prefer to have the same calories every day and that would help you be consistent and adhere, or if you want to have a little bit lower calories on the weekdays and come all the way up to maintenance on the weekends Great strategy. You want to learn all about it? Go check out my recent podcast, the Weekend Diet.

Philip Pape: 17:02

This can be really helpful for leaner clients who are pushing into lower body fat. This can be helpful for high-stress periods when adherence is a little more challenging. These are not cheat days. This is a controlled, structured approach that can be really important. Now that's refeeds.

Philip Pape: 17:16

Diet breaks is the longer breaks you might need. Like someone posted in the Facebook group hey, I've been dieting for 15 months. I've had these great results. Should I take a break? And my immediate response is just a yes, not even a well, it depends. It's kind of she's reaching out with a little bit of a cry for help, saying how she feels fatigued. I'm like okay, that's your sign. Let's just take a break. There's no reason to be miserable and suffer and push it for longer than you need to just to get to a number, when the more sustainable way to do that is to take a break right now. So that's optimizer number one is refeeds or diet breaks. Optimizer number two is creatine monohydrate.

Philip Pape: 17:55

Now, creatine is a supplement and I was hesitant whether this would be in here, because to me, supplementation is just the very tippity top 1% after you've done everything else, and very individualized. But creatine specifically is helpful to just about everybody for training and almost everybody might benefit long-term from cognitive health as well, according to the latest research. And it's very easy to do. Most people have no symptoms or almost everybody is symptom-free. There's a very tiny percentage of people who are actually allergic to it and then there's some people that just don't respond like 10 to 20% of people don't respond. But it's worth attempting, it's worth trying. And this is taking five grams a day of creatine monohydrate starting trying. And this is taking five grams a day of creatine monohydrate starting basically now and just continuing to take it for the rest of your life.

Philip Pape: 18:45

Creatine is supposed to support strength and power output and that could be even more helpful when you're in a calorie deficit so you can maintain your intensity. It increases muscle cell hydration, right. That's why your muscles fill up a bit at first and you gain a couple pounds on the scale of fluid weight, which is totally normal. But that muscle cell hydration can actually reduce muscle breakdown, catabolism, and might help preserve fat-free mass and improve your recovery during fat loss. And that's why I wanted to throw it in here, because creatine does all these things, it may give you an advantage during fat loss and then, finally, it may give you some advantage during fat loss and then, finally, it may give you some improved mental clarity during the cut, usually on higher doses though that's the caveat usually up in the 15 or even 20 gram range.

Philip Pape: 19:29

It is safe. It is inexpensive. It's one of the most well-researched supplements out there. If you're not taking it already, it is definitely worth considering, but do so long before you start your fat loss phase so that you can experience the bump in weight early. Let things normalize, get through any minor bloating or issues with hydration early on, because you should drink a lot of water with your creatine and kind of. Let it normalize and now you're in a good place to know where you truly stand with your maintenance calories to go into the fat loss phase.

Philip Pape: 19:58

And, by the way, just another shout out to the guide that I have, because this episode is not about, uh, setting up your fat loss phase. This is more about the foundational habits you need for fat loss, the actual numbers like how do you determine your calories, macros, all that. I call that the easy stuff, even though some people, people, reach out every day saying I have no idea what to eat for my fats and carbs. I'm like well, it's because you need to track and become aware and then know what your goal is. And there's a way to get that. So download my guide attached to this episode, the Nutrition 101. That will walk you through those.

Philip Pape: 20:32

Today is the non-negotiables and the optimizers. Okay, optimizer number three fiber and micronutrient density. And I left this for last so that you remember it in your head as this podcast will wrap up afterward. It's the most fresh thing in your mind of the optimizers. So this third optimizer is getting enough fiber intake and micronutrient density in your diet.

Philip Pape: 20:56

Okay, and I'm sorry, carnivore and low carb folks, you are not optimizing for fat loss or for long-term health, longevity or performance on a extremely low carb diet generally and I say generally because the vast majority of people will improve, not in those restrictive diets. A tiny percentage of people might thrive on those diets because they have all sorts of intolerances or inflammation from eating those foods. But I'm saying in general that if you are fearful of consuming fiber or vegetables or plants, don't be. Don't be fearful for any of the claims you hear on social media. Don't avoid them just for that reason, avoid them, because it would make sense for you. If that makes sense, all right. So what does this look like? I would say females consuming at least 25 grams of fiber, males consuming 30 to 35 grams of fiber a day, keeping in mind that that gets more challenging when you're in fat loss because the calories are lower, but it also becomes even more effective and helpful in doing so.

Philip Pape: 22:00

Now let's talk about how and then why. So the how is just filling your plate with colorful, high-volume foods, all sorts of vegetables, berries, even legumes, even whole grains. Yes, grains are fine if you can tolerate them. You know, being aware of the calories and the calorie density for your goal, fiber. So the why? Fiber promotes satiety, keeps you full, but it also supports smooth digestion. It reduces issues like bloating that can make a deficit feel worse than it is.

Philip Pape: 22:33

Micronutrients found in all sorts of variety of foods, especially plant-based foods and, by the way, I'm a big meat eater. I love my protein and animal-based products. I'm not vegan or vegetarian, but I love my plants as well, because the diversity is where it's at Magnesium, b vitamins, iron, potassium all the things that support thyroid function, your metabolism, your energy. Yes, you can supplement, of course. I mean vegans and vegetarians often have to supplement with things like B12. People on carnivore often have to supplement. In my opinion, everyone should supplement with magnesium, most likely because we're deficient no matter what you eat, given today's food environment. So if you can focus on nutrient-dense foods, it can reduce.

Philip Pape: 23:13

It can help with other things like food noise and decision fatigue, making your adherence easier. It can actually help with emotional eating and guilt and shame over foods. Believe it or not? Yes, it can, because what you're doing you're adding in things that make your body just feel so good and your digestion smooth and you feel full and satisfied on these whole foods. And this is in addition to the protein we already talked about. And, of course, fats are in there as well, naturally, as you're eating whole foods.

Philip Pape: 23:43

And when I talk to clients, they often report feeling initially hungrier after they go from a junk food type diet to a I shouldn't even use the word junk food. See, there's a label that we try not to use, but a food predominant with ultra-processed foods as opposed to whole foods, and then they switch to more whole foods, and that transition is important because you've got to give it a little time. What's actually happening is they're becoming more aware of their true hunger signals, because processed foods can mask your natural satiety cues the way they're designed and when you return to whole foods it's going to bring back your body's natural regulatory mechanisms. So do it before you go into fat loss. Again, a lot of this is prep work for fat loss. That's the irony of this whole thing is it is to make fat loss easier so that when you go into that deficit, all the things are dialed in to make it sustainable.

Philip Pape: 24:36

So how do we integrate all these components of the three plus three model? Remember the hierarchy. First, ensure you have the three non-negotiables in place High protein intake, resistance training with progressive overload, proper recovery. These must be consistent, and I'm going to say consistent every day. Obviously, you're not going to train every day and you're not always going to hit your protein. You're going to have some days that are less than others, but you want to do something every day for these. And again, training. You might only train three days a week, so the days you're not training, you're gonna focus on recovery in terms of getting enough sleep or walking enough, et cetera. But they've gotta be consistent. Then you're gonna layer in the optimizers as needed for your individual circumstances, your preferences, your biofeedback. Not everyone needs all three. I do have clients that don't take creatine. They're just fine, but they're nice tools to have in your arsenal.

Philip Pape: 25:29

And there's a few insights I want you to take away from this model that probably challenge the conventional wisdom. You've heard the first one. If you've listened to this podcast for any length of time, you've heard this. But if you're new to it, it's important. Weight loss is not the same as fat loss period. You can lose weight and lose muscle, which is not the goal at all. This is what happens when people go on Ozempic and they don't have any guidance with regard to training and protein and they just lose a ton and ton of muscle up to 30, 40% of the weight lost as lean mass or muscle. And so this model, this three plus three, is just a simple way in your head to say hey look, my goal is to protect against this scenario. I'm trying to lose fat, I'm not trying to lose weight, I want to look better, I want to feel better, I want a better body composition.

Philip Pape: 26:13

Second is you don't have to do traditional cardio to lose fat unless you enjoy it or you need it to create the well no, I shouldn't say it unless you enjoy it. That's all I'm going to say. Resistance training provides the extra, the stimulus you need for body composition. Walking provides the overall movement. Right, we didn't even really talk about that in detail, but getting your steps, walking, moving, is the priority when it comes to quote unquote cardio. And then only after that would I consider something like sprinting once or twice a week, if needed, if needed. The third thing here in terms of challenging conventional wisdom is that muscle retention is a skill, like many of the things we talk about. It's a skill, it's a process of personal improvement that's going to be developed over time.

Philip Pape: 27:00

Your fat loss phase does not have to feel like a collapse in your performance and health. It doesn't have to feel like a switch. When most people go on a diet, they think of it as this period of suffering. I'm going on a diet, I'm saying no, I can't do this, I'm not going to eat quote unquote bad foods. It's all these labels, morality behind it, judgment, guilt, fear, shame. But in reality, if you do it right, this can be an enjoyable process that doesn't feel like suffering at all, can be quite reasonably done, and you have to be patient, of course, but it's a strategically engineered period in a year or in a two-year period or whatever, where you're prioritizing fat loss.

Philip Pape: 27:42

Okay, the cool thing about fat loss itself, when you do it right, is it improves your body's future capacity to build muscle and maintain leanness. This is what I have seen and what I believe the evidence shows. When done properly, a well-executed fat loss phase, it yeah, it changes how you look, for sure, but it also rewires your metabolic machinery, for lack of a better phrase. There's research into muscle memory, for example. That shows that the neurological, the epigenetic adaptations from maintaining muscle during a deficit actually makes subsequent muscle building more efficient. You ever heard about that? It's pretty cool. Your body essentially becomes better at preserving and building muscle because you challenged it with fat loss the right way, and that's why I often see clients achieve their best muscle building results in the phase immediately following a properly executed fat loss phase. And if you have some excess weight to lose, I'm totally cool if you want to go with fat loss first, after you've prepped a few months for it, and then build muscle afterward, as opposed to because you know me, I talk about how everybody needs to spend time, at least once in a muscle building phase, but it might be best done after your fat loss phase, depending on where you're starting from. So we have things like improved insulin sensitivity, enhanced nutrient partitioning, optimized hormones. All of it will actually help in your muscle building phase coming up. So let's recap Three non-negotiables high protein resistance, training with progressive overload, proper recovery.

Philip Pape: 29:11

Three optimizers are refeeds or diet breaks, creatine and fiber slash, micronutrient density, and the overall picture here is we don't want to suffer. We don't want to suffer through bland, boring meals. We don't want to punish ourselves with cardio. We don't want to just cut out all these foods so that all we're thinking about are the foods we cut out. This is a physiological process that you can engineer to be efficient when you understand the requirements, and then you leverage what we know, the science that we know, and personalize it to you, and today's model provides you that approach to do that.

Philip Pape: 29:44

All right, if you found this valuable, if you wanna take your nutrition knowledge further, put this into practice and set up your fat loss phase, download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide. It expands on many of the principles we discussed today. It gives you the step-by-step practical approach to do it, and it also, I think, talks about fat loss and muscle building. Although if you're specifically focused on muscle building, go to witsandweightscom, slash free and get my muscle building blueprint. But if you're going to do fat loss, next, download the guide in the show notes for nutrition. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember fat loss doesn't have to be a mystery or a misery when you approach it with intelligence and strategy. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The 98% Success Method to Go Alcohol-Free and Get Lean (James Swanwick) | Ep 325

Join Physique University (free for 2 weeks) to engineer your best physique using our science-based fat loss and muscle-building blueprint.

–

Do you feel like alcohol helps you relax? What if it’s quietly sabotaging your fitness, sleep, and focus? 

I welcome James Swanwick, former ESPN anchor and founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, and we talk about why so many smart, health-focused people still drink, even when they know it’s holding them back. James breaks down the hidden impact alcohol has on your sleep, metabolism, hormones, and mindset, and why willpower alone isn’t the answer.

He also shares how to reframe your relationship with alcohol using science-backed tools from his book “Clear” and his 90-day program. If you’re serious about building a strong body and a clear mind, this might be the shift you didn’t know you needed.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:07 – How alcohol became culturally normal
5:07 – One drink a day still harms your brain
9:42 – The smiling assassins in our lives
13:14 – Alcohol vs food: the real cost
20:29 – The hormonal and metabolic toll
25:50 – Why “don’t drink” backfires
33:02 – Rewiring your environment and cues
38:19 – When to try non-alcoholic substitutes
42:34 – A glimpse into the alcohol-free life
47:32 – Outro

Episode resources:

• James Swanwick’s book: CLEAR

• Alcohol-Free Lifestyle podcast

• Instagram: @jamesswanwick

Why High Performers Struggle to Quit Drinking (And How to Fix It)

You eat protein. You train. You track macros. You even hit 10k steps before breakfast.

But Friday night rolls around and somehow a few drinks sneak in again.

The truth is, you probably already know alcohol isn't helping. It hurts your sleep, tanks your workouts, and delays fat loss. But knowing that doesn’t make it easier to stop. Especially when it’s been baked into your lifestyle for decades—work dinners, parties, wind-downs after long days, and those smiling friends who hand you a drink before you can say no.

In this episode, I sat down with James Swanwick, former ESPN anchor and founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, to talk about why smart, health-conscious people still drink—and what to do instead.

This isn’t about white-knuckling sobriety. It’s about building a better lifestyle, one that aligns with your goals, energy, mindset, and physical performance.

The 98% Method: Why Willpower Fails

Most attempts to quit drinking rely on willpower. But James explains that this is like fighting a battle with no armor. It’s not sustainable, and it’s not how our brains work.

The root of the problem? Your brain’s reward system.

We’re conditioned from childhood to associate alcohol with celebration, relaxation, and connection. It becomes so embedded in our identity that we don’t even question it. But alcohol doesn’t reduce stress—it creates it. You're drinking to numb the stress that alcohol caused in the first place.

And because the body prioritizes detoxing alcohol, it shuts down fat burning, slows metabolism, disrupts sleep, and alters hormones like testosterone, estrogen, and melatonin. Even one drink affects your performance, hunger, mood, and motivation for 24–48 hours afterward.

That’s what James calls “death by a thousand cuts.”

Why Your Fit Lifestyle and Alcohol Can’t Coexist

Even “moderate” drinking—the kind your doctor or friends might call harmless—erodes progress in subtle ways:

• It delays muscle recovery

• It stalls fat loss by slowing your metabolism

• It disrupts your sleep architecture

• It increases cravings for carbs and sugar

• It lowers testosterone and increases estrogen in men

• It raises breast cancer risk in women

• And it turns social events into environments you associate with drinking, making it harder to break free

Here’s the deal: you can’t optimize your physique and drink regularly. At some point, the tradeoff just doesn’t make sense.

So how do you actually stop?

James’s Alcohol-Free Lifestyle method uses neuroscience, habit design, and positive psychology to break the cycle. Here are a few key principles:

• Stop saying “don’t drink.” The brain doesn’t process negatives. Instead, say “I choose to drink soda water with lime tonight.” Tell your brain what to do, not what to avoid.

• Eliminate cues in your home. Remove the liquor cabinet, the wine glasses, the “just in case” bottles. Replace them with visual cues for hydration, health, and vitality.

• Reframe the identity. Don’t call yourself “sober” like it’s punishment. Say “I live alcohol-free.” Own it. Be proud of it. It’s not a limitation. It’s an upgrade.

• Practice gratitude. Write down 20 things you’re grateful for every day. This reduces cravings by more than 30%, and helps fill the emotional gap alcohol used to mask.

• Surround yourself with the right tribe. People who support your goals. People who don’t pressure you to drink. James calls them “smiling givers,” not “smiling assassins.”

And if you’re not ready to go alcohol-free forever, start with 90 days. But don’t just “survive” it. Enjoy the process. You’ll be shocked how much better you look, feel, and perform without it.

What to expect after quitting

• Better sleep (the kind that actually restores your body)

• More consistent energy

• Faster fat loss with less effort

• More visible muscle definition

• Sharper mental clarity

• Less bloating, water retention, and inflammation

• Higher self-confidence and drive

• Improved relationships and conversations—without numbing yourself

And yes, you’ll probably get better looking too. Just saying.

If you’ve built a strong foundation for fitness and health but alcohol still has a seat at the table, this is your chance to remove it for good—and get results that finally match your effort.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You want to cut back on alcohol. You've even tried a few times, yet somehow Friday night rolls around there you are, glass in hand, making the same old excuse about just want to relax, or I just enjoy the beer or the wine. What if I told you alcohol isn't actually helping you unwind at all? Today, my guest is a former ESPN anchor and the founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, and he's revealing the neuroscience behind why smart, successful people continue drinking, despite often knowing better. You'll discover why willpower fails, how alcohol sabotages your fitness goals, even a little bit of drinking, and a practical approach to breaking free without depriving yourself. If you want to stop letting alcohol rob you of mental clarity and physical results, this conversation is for you.

Philip Pape: 0:53

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing a topic that affects nearly everyone pursuing better health and fitness, and that is our relationship with alcohol, with drinking. We all know that alcohol isn't great for our health goals, but many of us, especially high achievers, continue drinking regularly despite knowing better. And why is that? And can we approach this in a way that doesn't feel like deprivation? To answer these questions. I'm joined by James Swanick, a former SportsCenter anchor on ESPN, host of the Alcohol Free Lifestyle podcast and author of a new book, clear, which gives you a neuroscience-based method to quit drinking, based on root causes and not on brute force or willpower. Today, you'll learn why smart people keep drinking even when they want to stop, the false beliefs we construct around alcohol, how drinking affects your fitness goals and, of course, some tips to break free from alcohol without feeling deprived. James, thank you so much and welcome to the show.

James Swanwick: 1:54

Thank you very much. Great to be here, Philip.

Philip Pape: 1:56

So, rather than jump into the topic of why people drink, I'm curious about when alcohol became so normal, like, why and when did it become so normal in society?

James Swanwick: 2:07

It starts when we are little kids and our parents say to us or the adult figures in our life say to us oh no, no, little Philip or James, you can't drink now. You can drink when you're older. And so our parents or the adult figures in our life implant this idea that drinking alcohol is something to aspire to, it's a rite of passage, you get to do it, it's something to savor. I would submit that is a nonsense. It's just attractively packaged poison, but that's where it starts. Also, there's this conditioning that in order to create romance, in order to create camaraderie, in order to create celebration, we must have attractively packaged poison present, which, of course, is a ridiculous notion.

James Swanwick: 2:48

However, that has been passed forward through generations after generation, and now we're in this. What I submit is this ridiculous cultural society where we have just normalized drinking, this poison which, as you reference, can be so damaging. And I don't mean so damaging because you're waking up in a ditch or you're drinking excessively. I mean so damaging that you only have one or two seemingly innocent drinks per day. That can still be damaging, and I call that death by a thousand cuts. It's not the waking up in a ditch, getting arrested, doing anything too crazy, but over many years and decades it catches up with you.

Philip Pape: 3:33

Attractively packaged poison. I like it. Okay, so we know where we're going with this show. You know I want to pull on a thread there. When you talk about conditioning from a young age, I definitely see that my dad drank beer pretty much regularly, like all his friends and all his peers, and I drank quite a bit most of my adult life. What about cultures where it is not as aspirational and I don't know if those exist, like people think of France, kids start drinking from a young age, or whatever age, and it's not as taboo. Are there any differences there that we see, or is it pretty much the same thing, just at different ages?

James Swanwick: 4:07

I would submit it's the same thing. Different ages. I mean, there are some cultural differences where, like you referenced, in France, people kind of build this idea of connection and family we must drink this poison. But I'm saying you can build connection and family without drinking the poison. And you know, the French may feel like, oh, this is a great way to create family ties, et cetera, but at what cost? And that's what I really try to do in my book, clear, and what I try to do with my work, which is we're so focused on normalizing this alcohol and we justify it. Oh yeah, it's fine to give kids 15, 14, 15, 16 alcohol in France. You know, as long as they're not getting drunk, it's just a little thing, it's fine. But what we're doing is we're setting them up for a lifetime of drinking habits.

James Swanwick: 4:52

And again in 2022, there was a study out of the UK of 35,000 middle-aged adults which showed that even one seemingly innocent drink per night was enough to cause some level of gray and white matter destruction in the brain, in other words, some level of brain degeneration.

James Swanwick: 5:07

And yet, culturally, we hang on to this idea that drinking is fine. It's fine, it's fine, it's no big deal. I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not getting arrested, it's fine. It's not fine and all of the new studies are showing that like the, the strain it puts on our heart, on our our liver, on our sleep, on our gains that we want in the gym, the additional calories we're consuming that we ordinarily would not if we weren't drinking, which can lead to a loss of confidence, which can lead to craving more sugary foods, which can lead to overeating, which can lead to obesity, which can lead to irritation and stress and frustration. I'm trying to really articulate to people that the death by a thousand cuts are often silent cuts, invisible. You don't see them. But if we trace it all back, we can trace it back to starting drinking at age 14 or 15.

Philip Pape: 6:05

Yeah, and I would love the listener to come out of this episode even if they're skeptical or objective in terms of the cost benefit. A lot of people do the cost benefit trade-offs of any of this stuff. I mean, obviously nobody says here's a little Oxy, it's okay, here's a little heroin, it's okay. And there's a cultural difference in how we treat alcohol as a premise. Right, that we have to break through. But then if we could get to the point where someone says, look, even one drink a month is a problem and or here's the trade-off I'm making, that would be helpful.

Philip Pape: 6:36

You mentioned gains. That's like the key word, man, for everybody listening. They're like, okay, you got my attention. Now, james, let's talk about how it hurts my gains. But really I want to go back to why people then defend it, besides the generalities that we talked about, why specific people rationalize it even when they know that it's bad, and we're going to get into why it's not great and why it's death by a thousand cuts. But most people know let's be honest, right, and those in my community who listen to this podcast we definitely have talked about the hormonal impacts, the fat loss impacts, excessive consumption, sleep impacts, all of that. We'll get into that, but why do people defend it in your practice?

James Swanwick: 7:14

People have been using it to relieve themselves of stress and anxiety, and they become addicted to that way of relieving themselves of stress and anxiety. They become addicted to that way of relieving themselves of stress and anxiety. The irony is is that we're drinking it to relieve ourselves of the very stress and anxiety that drinking itself is creating in the first place, and then we get stuck on this vicious stop-start cycle. This vicious cycle we're also in our reptilian brain, if we go back hundreds of thousands of years and if you understand the concept of Dunbar's tribe. Dunbar suggested that we used to be in tribes of about 160 people when we roamed. The earth happened that meant almost certain death, because a rival tribe would kill you, or the saber-toothed tiger would chase you and eat you, or the bear would get you, or the wolf would get you, or you'd die of isolation somehow. Now the reality is in the modern world, we're not going to die from being kicked out of a tribe, but nevertheless, that reptilian fear that we have still exists, and so that shows up with oh, if I'm not drinking, my friends will kick me out of the tribe, society will kick me out of the tribe. It's this irrational fear in the modern world, a rational fear in the you know, years and years and years and years ago, centuries ago, but an irrational fear in today's world. So we keep justifying it because it makes us feel safe. We keep justifying it because it temporarily numbs us from the pain of being ourselves, because reaching for a drink is really only reaching for the pursuit of feeling something different in the moment.

James Swanwick: 9:04

In most cases, people with a drinking problem, let's say, are drinking to relieve themselves of an uncomfortable feeling. And so if you then remove this thing that they've been trained to go to when they feel discomfort of any kind, well what are they left with? Discomfort, discomfort, and that feels awful and unsettling, which is why people defend it so much because it does give them that temporarily, because it does numb themselves from the pain, because it does allow them to procrastinate on key strategic decisions in their life. And also, addition, there are smiling assassins all over the world, and a smiling assassin is someone who's smiling as they offer you a drink or as they're drinking with you.

James Swanwick: 9:52

It's the waiter or the waitress who says hello, mr Pape, can I get you started with a glass of 10 pounds of unwanted body weight? Hello, mr Swanwick, can I get you started with a bad night's sleep and some shame and regret in the morning. That's essentially what they're saying when they show up and they're like oh, hello sir, hello ma'am, I'll be your waiter tonight. I'll be your server. Can I get you started from the drinks menu. And then our friends are smiling hey, phil, can I get you a drink? James, can I get you a?

Philip Pape: 10:20

drink.

James Swanwick: 10:20

And they try to be hospitable hosts. That's very nice of them offering me a drink, but they're offering me attractively packaged poison, and so if everyone, as they're consuming this alcohol, is smiling and portraying this image of camaraderie, then the idea that you would stop drinking, unconsciously or consciously, means you are now rejecting the camaraderie, you're rejecting the tribe, You're rejecting culture, yeah, fear of getting kicked out of the tribe, hence commercials that portray huge parties and a grand old time when drinking.

Philip Pape: 11:00

It's interesting because, philosophically I don't know if you found this to be true in your life, not even with alcohol, but with anything it seems like the thing everyone doing, often not the, not the thing we want to be doing. Do you notice that? Okay, so there's a little carve out in there. I want to address, because people are going to say well, what if I'm the type of person who I drink one beer every three weeks and it's at home, by myself or with my family because I like the taste of beer, right, those kinds of? I'm trying to dig into some of the rationales people have and I'm curious about those.

James Swanwick: 11:29

If they're drinking one beer every three weeks, you know, candidly, I don't see there's any real issue with that. If you generally like the taste and you're drinking a beer or two every three weeks, that's not going to cause too many problems, from my research and from what I have read. But then the question really is are you sure that it's only three weeks? Are you sure it's every three weeks? And most people, if they're honest when they dig into it, maybe it's not, maybe I'm drinking a little bit more consistently than I would like to admit. In that scenario, philip, there's no real challenge, no real problem.

James Swanwick: 12:03

Long-term health consequences? Short-term, sure, because if you're drinking beer anywhere close to bedtime, that's going to compromise your sleep. And when you have a compromised sleep you wake up just a little bit irritable, just a little bit more fatigued, a little bit more tired. Your body stores a little bit more fat. You don't lift as heavy in the gym, you're not as motivated to go to the gym in the first place Because you're tired. You might then reach for a sugary food to give you a little bit of an energy boost. So ordinarily you wouldn't eat the chocolate bar or the muffin, but now you reach for the chocolate bar and the muffin, or the Gatorade instead of a soda water, and now you're drinking some more sugar and you know what I mean Like.

James Swanwick: 12:37

So these kind of things can really happen, and most people are drinking close to bedtime. That destroys your sleep. What you're essentially doing when you drink close to bedtime is clocking in for a night's work at a time when you are supposed to be clocking out from the day's work. Your body wants to be resting, it doesn't want to be working. So again, coming back to it, look, a drink on occasion here and there, as long as you don't feel like it's compromising your life, no problems. But be aware even that is going to compromise your sleep, which is going to compromise the following day.

Philip Pape: 13:14

Yeah, and I think people will compare. Sometimes they'll compare alcohol to say poor food choices. And I'm all about flexible dieting, right, like if you're eating 80%, 90% whole nutritious foods, then indulge in the rest, you're probably in the top 95% as far as diets go. But what are your thoughts about that when people compare the allowances they give themselves for that flexibility on the food side versus the alcohol side? Because I feel like there's zero benefit to alcohol, whereas the food at least has contextual benefit.

James Swanwick: 13:48

I mean, why are we negotiating with ourselves over this? Like, why are we still clamoring on how can I have a drink? Can I have a drink? I'll just drink on weekends. I'll just drink on special occasions. What is it about it that's so special? It's piss in an attractive bottle, like.

James Swanwick: 14:06

I really challenged this. The first time anyone had a drink probably you were 12, 13, 14, you had a sip or something. Did it taste nice? Nope, of course it didn't. I remember my dad gave me brandy and I spat it out. I went ugh. So it naturally doesn't taste good. We've acquired the taste as we've gone along again.

James Swanwick: 14:26

Why are we just so in love with this damn thing? Do you remember the movie raiders of the lost ark with, yeah, of course, indiana jones? You know in that in the first scene where he's got the idol and he's running away from the, the, the boulder, and then he kind of escapes the boulder but then the nazi is there with the tribes and then the tribes andmen are all got their bows and arrows pointed at him and he has to hand over, reluctantly, the idol to the nazi sympathizer and the nazi sympathizer holds up the idol and all the tribesmen quickly stop pointing the bow and arrow at indiana jones and start bowing down and saluting this idol, this golden, golden idol, and that enables Indiana Jones to make his escape. That's what we're doing with alcohol. We're bowing down and worshiping the idol of alcohol.

James Swanwick: 15:15

And I say why? I say why are we worshiping this false god? Because it's like a toxic friend. It doesn't want you to leave it, it doesn't want you to break up with it, it doesn't do anything good for you, it doesn't serve you. And yet you're staying in this toxic relationship. You're choosing to stay in this toxic relationship while simultaneously bowing down and saluting it. So we're frustrated by the consequences of the relationship, yet we're still, like in the raiders of the lost ark movie, bowing down and worshiping it. So just stop worshiping it, stop clinging to this idea like oh, but I can just drink on a special occasion. Why is drinking worthy of being referred to as a special occasion? The special occasion is health, joy, clarity, focus, a good night's sleep, great connection, fun, laughter, movement, connection, gratitude. That is the special occasion. And you can have a special occasion every damn day of your life, living alcohol free.

Philip Pape: 16:23

Yeah, I love it and I think, at least in my personal experience, the relationship with alcohol for me and I've seen this for a lot of people evolved as I embraced a healthy lifestyle elsewhere. Right, and I think that's at least those listening to this show. I'm hoping that you know this, this episode I can share with them to say, look, you care so much about lifting, moving, eating right, mental health, walking, sleeping. Why is this special, is what you're saying, and so maybe we hit on the top couple reasons, one you already mentioned, which is that we think it relieves stress and we think it's going to help us unwind, and it's even worse when we do it at night. But why isn't that the case? Why does it not actually relieve stress and what's happening physiologically? Yeah, well, it actually creates more stress.

James Swanwick: 17:06

And what's happening physiologically? Yeah well, it actually creates more stress Temporarily. When we drink it, it gives us this temporary, illusionary sense of relief Right, so it does provide this feeling of relief for a little while 20 minutes, 45 minutes an hour but then the consequences of that relief then create more stress and anxiety. That leaves you craving, wanting to then create more stress and anxiety. That leaves you craving, wanting to relieve yourself of stress and anxiety. And it's this perpetual vicious cycle. It's this merry-go-round that you just are unable to get off.

James Swanwick: 17:39

When we drink, the body straight away recognizes it as a foreign poison and the body then goes to work to try to rid itself of the poison. We're consuming toxins. The body doesn't like these toxins. The body's then saying how do I get rid of these toxins? So you're now putting undue strain, unwanted, undesirable strain on the body. The liver goes to work, the heart rate increases. That puts pressure on the heart. The enzymes liver enzymes go up. It also has us increasing our appetite. So we end up eating more food than we might ordinarily eat just because we've drunk a glass of red wine or a beer or a scotch or whatever. All of a sudden, because it's turning into sugar. It leaves our body going oh okay, I want more of this. Let me get more of this. You know, you haven't eaten carbs for a while and then you start eating carbs and then you just really desire more carbs. That's what happens.

Philip Pape: 18:39

Deprivation amplifies desire. Yep.

James Swanwick: 18:41

Yeah, and think about it Like you go to a restaurant and you sit down and you're trying to do a cut and you're trying to watch your calories, you're trying to lose some weight, and you say I'm not having the dessert tonight, no way. And the smiling assassin comes over and says oh, can I get you a glass of wine? Oh, just have a glass of Riesling or one glass of white wine. Okay, you're just drinking 300 calories in that white wine, same amount of calories as a donut or a packet of crisps, but more than that, because the drink now increases your appetite. Now, when the dessert menu comes over, the smiling assassin goes oh, can I get you some desserts, some cake? Would you like the cookie? And you're like all right, okay, who do you want to split it with me? All right, all right, okay, we'll have it after all. And then you have that cake half a cake, a few bites, maybe the whole damn thing. And then you get that cake half a cake, a few bites, maybe the whole damn thing. And then you get in the taxi or the Uber and you go home and you go to sleep. And then you wake up in the morning and you go oh man, I wish I didn't have that glass of wine and that piece of cheesecake last night, right, and now you've undone all the good work that you had.

James Swanwick: 19:43

So, look, it causes the body to go to to work. But you don't want the body to go to work, at least not in that way. You want the body to go to work when you're in the gym and you're looking for gains. You want to build some muscle, you're looking to burn so bad, that's when you want the body to work. But guess what a great night's sleep is where the repair from that work happens. But when you are looking to rest to grow the muscle, to get the gains, you're now saying oh no, we're not going to rest, I'm putting you to work again. The body's unable to do what you want it to do from the intention that you have from going to the gym in the first place so does it also impact hormones?

Philip Pape: 20:29

my understanding is that moderate, almost daily drinking does have a really insidious impact on hormones lowers libido in men, raises the risk of breast cancer in women, slows down the metabolism.

James Swanwick: 20:48

So if you're looking to burn unwanted body weight, for example, it's not going to happen if you're drinking, or it's not going to happen as effectively if you are drinking. You're just literally pouring more calories in and also slowing down the process. There's a couple of studies out. I'll have to dig in a little bit more into those studies but they found that one or two drinks the night before is enough to slow down your metabolism to the point of a few pounds a week. I'd have to dig into that a little bit more, but I know that your listeners here are particularly interested in lifting weights and gains and losing weight, muscle and things like that. So if, if you're if, let's just say, fat loss is your goal, that can slow down your metabolism enough to have you leaving.

James Swanwick: 21:33

Have you feeling frustrated that you're not losing as much weight? I'm actually on a cut at the moment. I'm tracking all of my food with MyFitnessPal and I'm walking 16, 17,000 steps a day at the moment and I'm trying to do like under 1650 calories a day and I've been tracking it. In the first seven days I lost a lot of money, not a lot of money, I'm sorry, a lot of pounds. Six pounds in in a week and then it kind of stalled and I got a bit frustrated. What's going on?

James Swanwick: 22:04

And then when I kind of dug it, I realized I wasn't entering a couple of drinks, not alcoholic drinks, but I wasn't adding electrolyte drinks and some coffee into the app. I was just putting the food, not the liquids. And when I looked at like the electrolytes how many calories and stuff were in the electrolytes, I was like, oh my God, there's like 100 there. And oh my God, the coffee there. There's like a 50 or 100 there, depending if it's a latte or not.

James Swanwick: 22:28

And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, that's two, that's 200, maybe 300 calories a day over seven days. That's 2100 calories. Like to have that? Yeah, yeah, at least that's enough for you not to lose that weight. So the same thing with the alcohol, right, not only is it additional calories, but it's the slowing down of the metabolism, it's's the disruption of the hormones your melatonin release. Melatonin is an important hormone for sleep that doesn't release in the way that nature intended it to release when you drink destroys sleep. So, yes, there's massive hormonal effects if you drink even innocent amounts of drink, of alcohol.

Philip Pape: 23:04

Yeah, people need to understand this because there's cascading effects. There's the stoppage of fat oxidation because the toxins have to be metabolized first. There's all of that and the last question I guess I have before we get into the neuroscience and then how we break this habit, because ultimately people are like, okay, now what do we do? Is there anything else you would put at the same level as alcohol, assuming someone is not smoking or taking drugs? Is there anything else you would put equivalent to alcohol or near it, or is it in a class of its own?

James Swanwick: 23:34

That's a great question. There's a couple of studies that have come out over the past five or six years, so just before the pandemic hit. There was a study that I referenced in my book, clear, which showed the damage and harm to individuals and the damage and harm to society and listed the whole lot of drugs. Would you be shocked to learn that alcohol is actually more damaging to society than cocaine? Like that's extraordinary. It's something like I have to reference the book a little bit better here. But there's like heroin, crack, crack, cocaine, meth, alcohol, and then there's like cocaine and things and it goes down from there Right and ketamine and things like that society either slightly above or slightly under consequence significance than meth and crack and heroin. Like crazy in terms of the damage to society. The fact that alcohol would even be close to heroin and the impact on society is astounding. And yet it's legal, it's on every corner. We smile when we consume it.

Philip Pape: 24:53

It's just because it's death by a thousand cuts and we don't see it so obviously in front of our eyes until years, decades have passed yeah, many people are opting into this and, like you said, even as a society we've opted in and I'm sure it's a function of scale too right, just the fact that that's the case, it means it's just pervasive everywhere. Okay. So if someone says, all right, I get it. It's not great, there's no benefits, it's a poison death by a thousand cuts. What do I do about this? I know you, you know in your book, which when we were, when we scheduled this, I don't even think it was out yet, and it came out pretty recently. I believe.

James Swanwick: 25:30

Yeah, it did. Yeah Came out in March of 2025.

Philip Pape: 25:33

Yeah, yeah, exactly Just a couple of months ago. So you definitely talk about the neuroscience there, dopamine and the reward centers and all of that. Where's the best place to start so that someone understands, like, how they're altering their brain and how they can then use that information to change their behavior?

James Swanwick: 25:50

Stop saying to yourself you need to stop, I have to quit, don't drink. Because the mind doesn't understand the negative command. It just hears the word alcohol. So a lot of us are walking around saying, geez, I need to quit, I hope I don't drink. Don't drink tonight.

James Swanwick: 26:14

And there's a bundle of nerves in the brain called the RAS, which stands for reticular activating system, and those bundle of nerves are like a laser seeking missile, which is it will focus on whatever it is that you are repeatedly thinking about. So if you are repeatedly thinking about alcohol, even if you're saying don't drink, need to quit, you're thinking about alcohol, alcohol, alcohol. So it's a lot easier for you to drink alcohol. It's harder for you to stop right. On the flip side of that, if you say to yourself what you will do, I'm easily going to drink soda water, ice and a piece of lime tonight. I'm easily going to walk up to the barman and say you know what? Give me a soda water, ice and a splash of cranberry. Now, that's very easy. The mind and the reticular activating system understands that positive command. We're telling ourselves what to do as opposed to telling ourselves what not to do. And when we tell ourselves what to do. It's a lot simpler and a lot easier for us to achieve and accomplish that very thing.

Philip Pape: 27:04

You know, I was thinking about how we're titling this episode and when I look at your content and everything, I think we start from the quit and the stop and the have to not drink alcohol, right, because that's how we reach someone who's thinking that way. I don't know if you agree with that, but like you see it in the marketing side, and then I imagine you have to then do the switch and say let's. It's kind of like I talk to people and they're like I've got to lose weight and I say, well, really we're not trying to lose weight, we're trying to build muscle and we're trying to add in nutritious foods and we're trying to add in protein and we want to.

Philip Pape: 27:33

So I love, that it's directly tied to our brain in that way. So what are your thoughts on that then? The language we use, the marketing, the whole kind of journey that people go through from the initial recognition to the switch.

James Swanwick: 27:48

People are always saying sober, sobriety, recovery, clean. We don't use any of that language. In our organization, at Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, we use the phrase alcohol-free, we're choosing an alcohol-free lifestyle. The name of my coaching organization is called Alcohol-Free Lifestyle and the key word there is lifestyle. It's the style of life, life. It's not needing to be sober and white, knuckling it and trying to be like sober, sobriety, recovery, clean, surrender to a higher power.

James Swanwick: 28:18

We dismiss all of that verbiage. It's been used for 75, 80 years and that's why aa, who really uses that language, has a seven percent success rate and a 93% failure rate if you judge success over long term. So we instead say we get to be alcohol free, we choose to be alcohol free as opposed to I need to be sober, I'm sobriety, I'm three years sober, I'm like three years sober means that you've probably been white knuckling it for three years, whereas we get to be alcohol free, I get to choose this lifestyle. That's the kind of verbiage difference and instead of using phrases like I need to, I have to, which feels very draining and heavy and tough and implies friction, we say I choose to, I get to, I want to, and it might seem you know, minor, a minor thing, but we arise in language, we are language, and so the subtle changes there can have profound generational impact.

Philip Pape: 29:18

Yeah, I totally agree. I think there's parallels with positive psychology. Not sure how familiar you are with that field, but it's only about 20 years old, right, where traditional psychology focused on the negative of the syndromes, of the disorders of our brain, and then positive psychology came along and said well, positive isn't the opposite of negative, positive is its own, it's its own thing, it's independent of negative. The more positivity we add in, you know, to simplify it, it crowds. It can crowd out the negative, I guess, is one way to put it. I see the same thing with nutrition or a fitness lifestyle. Right, we choose to train three days a week because X? Right, Because it supports our goals, and you then find out how you're going to change your schedule around that which then ends up getting rid of your Netflix binging here or your unproductive activity over here, whatever.

Philip Pape: 30:08

So I think that is powerful, james, I'm glad you brought that up because there's a lot to be said for language. So if someone's listening and saying, okay, I'm a casual drinker, right, I'm not speaking necessarily to alcoholics here, but I'm a casual drinker, I still think I want to drink because of the social experience. But now I understand why that's just a false belief. Let's say uh, I still love the taste of beer, or I still love the taste of wine or whatever. Again, rationale. What's the first step? Is it what they tell themselves, or is it coming up with a behavior that replaces it?

James Swanwick: 30:42

Well, first step is is identifying that you can have a better and more fun and a preferable lifestyle being alcohol-free and choosing alcohol-free. Once you believe that, then it becomes very easy to live an alcohol-free lifestyle. But while you are maintaining this, what I would submit mistaken belief that alcohol equals fun and not drinking alcohol equals deprivation and pain it's going to be very, very challenging, which is why these 30-day challenges are mostly ineffective over the long term, because people are going in there trying to get to 30 days, white-knuckling it, depriving themselves, and what do they do on day 30, philip? They celebrate with the drink and they return to the same level of drinking that inspired them to want to stop in the first place. So the first thing is trying to rewire the mindset, and this is what we do in our 90-day stop drinking process, which is called Project 90, in which we outline in the book Clear, which is we try to rewire your mindset, and that is taking it from drinking equals fun and pleasure and connection and romance, and not drinking equals pain and suffering and deprivation, to drinking equals pain and suffering and not drinking equals joy and ease and calm and relationship and romance and fun and celebration. So that's the first step. It's that mindset and that's why people come to us. We try to help them rewire their mindset around that.

James Swanwick: 32:06

And the second thing is kind of what james, who wrote the book Atomic Habits, talks about, which is setting yourself up to win with your environment. So that is removing the cues that gets you to drink in the first place in your home. So, for example, a lot of people have bottles of wine and a liquor cabinet and wine glasses and corkscrews and posters with beer things on it and all these kind of shrines to alcohol. My invitation is remove that, because all of those cues those visible cues are making you think about alcohol and so then you're more likely to go and drink alcohol. In other words, just get it out of the home. Now, this is not about trying to remove yourself from all circumstances in life where alcohol is present, because that's unrealistic. Alcohol will always be there, it will always be flowing, it will always be colleagues, always be friends, families, parties, bars, restaurants. But in your own home you can remove it right, get it out of the home and then replace it with visible cues of health and vitality.

James Swanwick: 33:02

I suggest to our clients you buy yourself a bouquet of flowers, whether you're a man or a woman, you put, you get glass mason jars and you strategically leave them around the house. So when you see the glass mason jars, you think about drinking water. You go and you fill up water with some purified water. You drink the water. The flowers are a visible representation of health and vitality and color and scent. Think of those flowers as your own body. The flowers need sunlight. The flowers need water, needs water replacing. Look at those flowers each day and go, oh, I need sunlight, I need water replacing. Let me go outside, let me go for a walk.

James Swanwick: 33:38

The other thing is there's a lot of studies that suggest that you can reduce cravings for any drug, including alcohol, by just having a daily gratitude practice. So a lot of the things that we do with our clients in our Project 90 Stop Drinking process is we have them for 90 straight days, write down 20 things that they are grateful for. We call it the Daily 20. And just that exercise alone living a life of appreciation instead of expectation, is enough to reduce cravings by an incredible 30% plus. In addition to that, the way in which you share with friends and family and colleagues that you're not drinking is more important than what you actually say.

James Swanwick: 34:17

A lot of people mistakenly think they've got to come up with some logical reason as to why they're not drinking. But there's a lot of studies of human behavior and psychology and influence that shows that to influence anyone, it's only 7% what you say and 93% how you say it. And how you say it is body language, tonality, pacing, facial gestures. So instead of going into a situation where someone's going why aren't you drinking? Instead of oh, I wish I could. No, I'm doing this 30-day challenge, I'm sober and you're implying that not drinking is boring and dull, instead you go oh no, I'm alcohol-free at the moment.

James Swanwick: 34:54

I'm like 90 days. I've been six months. I'm feeling pretty good. I lost a bit of weight, I'm sleeping better, I'm owning it and we can just relax and have a good time. You drink your drinks. I'll drink my alcohol-free drinks. Now, everyone can have a good time. So they would be some of the things that I would get people started with. And most importantly, I think, is just own the fact that you love being alcohol-free. Love it, feel good about it and people will relax and they won't judge you.

Philip Pape: 35:29

This is so good, this is gold. It's funny you were saying that because it works with other things. We homeschool our kids and sometimes you'll get a lot of cynicism from people like, oh, what are you going to do about high school? Oh, how are they going to get this and that? And some people try to defend themselves and we're like yeah, thanks for asking, like we love it because of this. So almost like toxically positive, but not really. I mean people will say I'm a positivity bully. I'm a big fan of reframing, like you just suggested. You also mentioned the cues, which works well for food as well. We talked about your food environment. We just went to Disney World and there's a lot of opportunities to see alcohol at different bars and restaurants and one of my kids said well, isn't that pretty? And I said what are you talking about? She said all the bottles up behind the bar. I'm like we do glamorize the beauty of it through the packaging, through the liquor bottles, the vodka right, you know what I'm saying when even my little 11-year-old thinks it's pretty.

Jerry: 36:25

I just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.

Jerry: 36:33

I personally worked with Philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.

Jerry: 36:37

Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one he's really taking the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth. If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, Philip.

Philip Pape: 37:38

All of this is great. So, anyway, I'm just sharing some personal anecdotes Just to recap for the listener. The first thing you said was embracing this as a lifestyle, as a positive. Being proud, being positive, saying like being alcohol-free, is the thing I want to be. It's aligned with my goals. Of course I'm not ashamed of it. Of course I'm going after it. The second thing you mentioned was removing the cues. We just touched on that a little bit. And then the third thing being the gratitude Does that work for emotional eating as well? And the third thing being the gratitude, does that work for emotional eating as well? Because you said it in a study it reduced cravings.

James Swanwick: 38:10

So yeah, I would think. So yeah, cravings. Yeah, for any vice, but I mean, I'm specifically talking about drugs, including alcohol, but it can be for any vice, yeah.

Philip Pape: 38:17

What are your thoughts on non-alcoholic options? Because part of my brain says well, they're mimicking alcoholic beverages, with all the packaging and marketing to go with it, but they don't have alcohol. So what are your thoughts on those?

James Swanwick: 38:29

I think when someone's trying to rewire their mindset, initially in the first 90 days, three months, and trying to create a long-term mind rewiring, I would invite people to refrain from even drinking alcohol-free alternatives. But once you've got to at least 90 consecutive days alcohol-free and you've successfully rewired your mindset and now you get to have power over alcohol alcohol no longer has power over you that would be the stage where you could start introducing some alcohol-free alternatives. The challenge with drinking alcohol-free alternatives as a direct and immediate substitute for alcohol is that the correlation is still there. And so you know. You go there, say hey, can I get a heineken zero? Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have any. Any heineken zero? Oh, okay, let me have a heineken.

James Swanwick: 39:14

And so that association and that correlation is still there again after 90 days, assuming that you have gone through our process, you've rewired your mindset, you now realize that you get to be alcohol-free and that a special occasion is every day that you're alcohol-free. Then you can. I'm okay with that, I'm comfortable with that. But again, I know I'm repeating myself. People can convince themselves oh yeah, I'm just going to drink 0% beers. Well, what happens if there's no 0% beers? What are you going to do.

Philip Pape: 39:44

Chances are you're probably going to order a beer and then the slippery slope is very slippery I understand yep, because you're still seeking out something about that experience or taste or flavor that was associated with the alcoholic version of it?

Philip Pape: 39:55

yeah, that makes sense, I guess what you know. You work with a lot of people, so what would you say is the biggest in that first phase, that 90-day phase, the biggest thing that people do still struggle with? Maybe it's with the people around them. That's. One thing that comes to mind is just how you deal with your friends and your family, but what do you see?

James Swanwick: 40:14

What is the biggest struggle that people have when they're trying to quit? Yes, yeah, it's cultural conditioning. It's not a physical withdrawal. I mean, I know that that's a real thing for a small percentage of the population, like a chemical dependency, but for most people, who might consider themselves a gray area drinker, where they're not deemed bad enough to be an alcoholic uh, but it's bad enough that it's causing consequences, there's no real physical withdrawal. I mean, look again, I'm I'm not a doctor, but it's very much a psychological and habitual challenge that someone has. It's just they're so used to drinking this poison for years and decades and because they're unaware or uneducated or haven't tried an alternative lifestyle, it just seems so challenging and so tough.

James Swanwick: 41:03

And again, smiling assassins are everywhere friends, colleagues, staff, everyone. They're all smiling're all smiling. Hey, have a drink. That's never going to stop. It's going to continue for years and decades and even though there is a cultural change happening right now and people are increasingly turning their back on alcohol, it's not going to stop. People still smoke cigarettes today, even though we've known for three decades. That is not good for us, so it's never going to change.

James Swanwick: 41:25

So you know, you, we really got to get comfortable being alcohol free not comfortable, but like euphoric, that we're alcohol free and once we are, other people see that and more people get on board. Then our social circle becomes smiling not assassins, but like smiling givers, like that. They're giving joy, they're giving pleasure, they're giving experiences. And we're seeing that so much now, like there's a tidal wave of change happening across the world. Alcohol-free drinks have exploded. In australia, my native country, they have these like sunrise raves now, where there's no alcohol present. People show up an hour before the sun gets up and they have a dj and they start dancing, going crazy, and then they celebrate the sun rising or drug and alcohol free, and then they're going for a swim and a run and they're healthy and they're connecting on a health level and a human level, not on a drug-fueled level. So you know, once people can get over that kind of social kind of obstacle that they're fearing and break through that, wow, then life gets to be just glorious.

Philip Pape: 42:33

Do you find that people who then go through that? Is there a correlation with that and a health and fitness lifestyle, or a cause and effect, even?

James Swanwick: 42:42

Yeah, I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010 and I spend time with a lot of very healthy people and most of them either don't drink at all or drink sparingly. And, most importantly, alcohol isn't a necessity for social lubricant, you know, or for connection or fun. For example, a staff member of mine who works with me at Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, it's his 41st birthday on Monday and we're going out to a Japanese restaurant on Saturday night. I asked him who's coming. He told me and I thought about it. I went okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Swanwick: 43:18

I think there's maybe two out of 12 people who I know will drink and when they drink they won't be drinking excessively. They'll have like a drink or two. But the other 10, 10 out of 12 people don't drink alcohol-free. And I look at them and I go. They're measured, they've got good conscious communication at least they appear to. I mean, who knows what goes on behind closed doors, but they seem like good people.

James Swanwick: 43:40

They're good morals, they're not prone to irritability, they're not prone to reacting. They respond versus react. They look good, they're in the gym. I see them working out, they go for walks, they get sunlight. The conversations that I have with them is about nutrition and weight loss and weights and mindset and conscious communication and trying to be the best father or mother and trying to be the best leader and trying to be a great colleague, like that's the kind of conversations that you have, and I always, you know, I often say that how you look on the outside is often a reflection of how you feel about yourself on the inside. And so just a warning you do get better looking when you stop drinking alcohol.

Philip Pape: 44:23

That's the selling point, man. That's so good. I mean. This is why I love talking to you guys on, you guys like you on the show, because it is infectious to be around folks like that who share those goals. It made me think, though, because you mentioned you mentioned cigarettes and I I was thinking about, like, the deal makers and people in sales and a lot of the high achievers you probably deal with, who do dinners, lots of dinners, or they go on the golf course or whatever. Is that culture any more challenging, because of just how competitive it is and the deal making and kind of all of that, or is this just a madman fantasy that I have?

James Swanwick: 44:56

I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010. I would consider myself a pretty successful businessman. I've done deals, hired people, done joint venture deals, generated millions of dollars in sales across two different businesses. I guess society might say, oh geez, that would be tough for you to do business because you can't entertain clients or you can't do deals, you can't soften people up with a few drinks. I've been doing it 15 years. Things have worked out okay for me.

James Swanwick: 45:28

And then this whole idea about the golf buddies and stuff and going to the clubhouse of the 19th hole I get it Like the culture's drinking. Let's go back to the clubhouse, have a couple of beers. Ho, ho, ho, how about that? Like eagle, you shot. Oh geez, that double bogey was a nasty one. Great, have one. Great, have all that friendly banter, but do it while drinking a soda water, ice and a piece of lime doesn't make you any less manly. In fact, it makes you more manly. Because, I'll tell you, drinking alcohol destroys your testosterone levels, especially beer. Beer's got so much estrogen producing crap in it. Men are like oh, beer, the irony, right? The irony is that beer is associated with masculinity and testosterone and yet it's a product that destroys your masculinity and testosterone.

Philip Pape: 46:12

And it gives you a big gut to boot over time it gives you a big gut.

James Swanwick: 46:16

yeah, a lot of calories. In fact, just on that, can you have a guess on which two alcoholic drinks generally have the most toxins in it in them? Drinks generally have the most toxins in it.

Philip Pape: 46:28

In them the most toxins, Mm-hmm, Is it? It's not mixed, some sort of mixed drink? It's?

James Swanwick: 46:33

red wine and beer.

Philip Pape: 46:34

Okay.

James Swanwick: 46:35

Most toxins. The least toxins is tequila.

Philip Pape: 46:40

It's also gluten-free. That used to be its selling point, yeah.

James Swanwick: 46:45

If you're going to drink tequila and if you're, you know if you're gonna drink that crazy dealer. And if you're, you know if you're gonna drink, drink tequila, that's the least bad for you, right? But worst in terms of toxins. If you measure toxins, red wine and beer yeah, no, because you mentioned the cigarettes.

Philip Pape: 46:59

And I know guys who everything they do is health focused, except they'll pull out a cigar, you know, every now and then to celebrate. Right, it's just celebrate, it's just the thing. It's just like with alcohol and the culture, all right, well, is there anything? I know there's a lot we could have covered. I wanted to touch on the main points of why we do this. You gave us a great framework for that initial transformation away, not away from alcohol, but embracing an alcohol-free lifestyle, embracing what it is to be a healthy person. Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish? You want to get out there for the listener.

James Swanwick: 47:31

No, I don't think so, other than just a call to arms, so to speak, which is, you know, like culture is going to want to keep you stuck in mediocrity. And in my view and this is my life's work the mediocrity is created through the drift, and the drift is created through consistent, socially acceptable drinking Socially acceptable drinking, but drinking nonetheless and I would just invite you to re-explore your relationship with alcohol. I write about this in my book, which is called Clear. It's available online wherever any books are sold. There's an audible version as well, where you can put me on two speed if you like and get through the book in four hours instead of eight hours at normal speed.

James Swanwick: 48:15

And, you know, start to embrace this new identity. Look, I get that. Not drinking is a threat to your current reality and your current identity, and the fear is that who will I be if I'm not a drinker? Who will I be? I won't be the fun guy, I won't be the romantic guy or the girl, I won't be the cool host anymore. This is such an identity threat and I get that.

James Swanwick: 48:37

But really, if you explore, what's it giving you, if it's giving you mediocrity, and you're stuck in the drift of life and you're meandering and you're floating and you don't like it and you've got less time on this planet than you've already lived. It's time for a change, and change can feel scary I get that. So I really acknowledge those who take the leap and take the plunge. And if you'd like more details, you can go to alcoholfreelifestylecom slash clear and that'll give you details about the book. Or just go to alcoholfreelifestylecom and there's some details there about our 90 day and year long stop drinking processes. And I'm on Instagram at at James Swanwick lots of free tips and tricks. And we've got a podcast as well Alcohol-Free Lifestyle. You can dig into that a lot deeper as well.

Philip Pape: 49:19

All right, so I'm definitely going to include all of those in. By the way, if you're Amazon Unlimited which I am you can get the book for free. Um, hopefully you get a cut of that, even those. I don't know how that works, but, uh, the the book clear your Instagram and also the podcast. We'll include all those in the show notes. And if you are looking to take the leap and get out of the mediocrity and the drifting through life, uh, this is the way to do it. Thank you so much, james, for coming on the show.

James Swanwick: 49:43

Philip, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

How the "Weekend Diet" Accelerates Fat Loss and Preserves More Muscle (Strategic Refeeds) | Ep 324

Download the FREE Precision Fat Loss Guide to choose one of 6 strategies designed for your experience, goals, and lifestyle:
witsandweights.com/free

--

What if shifting WHEN you eat could accelerate your fat loss results?

Most of us tackle dieting by reducing calories evenly each day, but research suggests there may be a more effective approach (and it's easy and even fun to implement).

Learn about a fascinating study that tested weekend refeeds against traditional daily restriction... with surprising results for muscle preservation and how your metabolism slows down during weight loss.

You'll discover how restructuring your weekly calories could significantly impact body composition outcomes, despite creating the same total weekly calorie deficit.

Maybe it is about calorie timing after all!

Main Takeaways:

• Traditional daily calorie restriction works, but research suggests strategic timing may offer muscle-preservation advantages

• The "Weekend Diet" approach maintains the same weekly deficit while distributing calories differently

• Targeted carbohydrate increases on specific days could help minimize metabolic adaptation

• Practical implementation requires careful calculation of weekly weight loss targets

Episode Resources:

• Download my FREE Precision Fat Loss Guide

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

• Link to 2020 study by Campbell et al.

• Previous episode: The #1 Reason to Eat More Carbs

Timestamps:

0:00 - Traditional dieting vs. the "weekend diet" (carb refeeds)
7:39 - Findings on fat-free mass preservation
9:23 - Metabolic impacts beyond muscle preservation
10:22 - Carbs, insulin, and muscle protein synthesis
12:02 - Anabolic signaling pathways
13:03 - Glycogen replenishment (training hard on Monday!)
15:44 - Psychological factors
16:38 - How to implement the Weekend Diet
21:32 - Leptin, refeeds, and hormones 

How the Weekend Diet Could Unlock Better Fat Loss and Muscle Retention

What if simply rearranging your weekly calories—not changing the total amount, not cutting more food—could help you keep more muscle and minimize metabolic slowdown during a fat loss phase?

That’s the idea behind what I’m calling the Weekend Diet, based on a 2020 randomized controlled trial by Dr. Bill Campbell’s team. This isn’t about crash diets or gimmicks. It’s a structured, research-backed strategy using carb refeeds on the weekend that may give you an edge in preserving lean mass while dieting—especially if you’re resistance training and already doing the fundamentals right.

If you're in a fat loss phase, lifting consistently, and wondering how to make it more effective without feeling drained, this might be a game-changer.

What Did the Study Actually Show?

Let’s start with the setup.

Dr. Campbell’s team took 27 resistance-trained men and women, gave them the same weekly calorie deficit (~25%), the same protein intake, and the same four-day-per-week lifting program. But they split them into two groups:

• Group A (Traditional Dieting): 25% daily calorie deficit every day for 7 weeks

• Group B (Weekend Diet): 35% deficit Monday through Friday, then ate at maintenance on Saturday and Sunday (mostly via increased carbs)

Both groups lost a similar amount of total body weight and fat mass. That’s expected, because the calorie deficit across the week was identical.

But here’s the kicker:

• Lean mass retention (fat-free mass):

  • Traditional group lost 1.9 kg of dry fat-free mass

  • Weekend Diet group lost only 0.2 kg
    That’s a 10x improvement in lean mass retention.

• Resting metabolic rate (RMR):

  • Weekend Diet: dropped 38 kcal/day

  • Traditional Diet: dropped 78 kcal/day

Less muscle loss. Less metabolic slowdown. Same fat loss. That’s why this approach is worth considering.

Why It Works: 4 Likely Mechanisms

1. Insulin’s anti-catabolic effect
   The high-carb days bump insulin, which helps suppress muscle breakdown. Even though you’re in a deficit most of the week, the weekend could help “reset” some of the catabolic effects of dieting.

2. Re-activating anabolic pathways
   A constant deficit suppresses muscle-building signals. A short break to maintenance calories may bring those signals back to baseline temporarily—especially important when you’re lifting hard.

3. Glycogen replenishment
   Carbs refill muscle glycogen stores, which improves your training intensity and potentially boosts the mechanical tension you’re applying to your muscles. Better training = better muscle retention.

4. Psychological relief
   Let’s be real: dieting is mentally draining. Knowing you get to eat more on the weekends (guilt-free) can make the whole process feel more sustainable. That alone might improve your adherence and long-term results.

How to Apply the Weekend Diet

Step 1: Know your maintenance calories.
Track your food and weight for at least 2–3 weeks, or use an app like MacroFactor that dynamically calculates it based on your data.

Step 2: Choose your rate of loss.
For most people, 0.5–1.0% of body weight lost per week is a good range. In this example, we’ll use 0.75% per week for a 180 lb person (~1.35 lbs/week fat loss), requiring a weekly deficit of about 4,725 calories.

Step 3: Break up the week strategically.
Instead of a steady 675-calorie deficit every day, do:

• Weekdays (Mon–Fri): ~945 calorie deficit

• Weekends (Sat–Sun): eat at maintenance
  (and bump the majority of those calories from carbs)

Example:
If your maintenance is 2,500 kcal/day, your weekday intake is ~1,555–1,600 kcal/day. Then on the weekend, you jump back to 2,500 kcal/day.

Step 4: Keep protein high
Stick with at least 0.8 g/lb of body weight (~145 g/day for a 180 lb person). Fat can stay around 25–30% of your calories, and the rest goes to carbs. On refeed days, carbs make up most of the added intake.

Step 5: Train hard, especially Monday–Friday
This method aligns well with a M-F training split. You’ll enter Monday with full glycogen stores and likely perform better in your lifts.

Bonus: It fits real life.
Most of us already eat more (or want to eat more) on the weekends due to social events, family meals, and less structure. Now it’s part of the plan, not a deviation from it.

But What About Leptin?

Yes, leptin—the satiety hormone—drops during dieting. High-carb refeed days have been shown to temporarily increase leptin, which may signal your brain that “we’re okay” and reduce diet fatigue or excessive metabolic adaptation. It’s not a magic fix, but another potential benefit.

Just don’t get carried away with the idea that two high-carb days will permanently reset your hormones. It’s more of a short-term adaptive relief.

Should You Try the Weekend Diet?

If your training performance tanks during fat loss, you’re losing more muscle than you’d like, or the mental grind of dieting is wearing you down, this could be a smart approach. The science is compelling. The strategy is simple. And it aligns with how real people live.

---

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

---

Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

One of the primary goals of fat loss is to preserve your hard-earned muscle while you lose weight, and traditional daily calorie restriction absolutely works for this. But there is research that shows how a simple adjustment to the timing of your calories during the week can potentially take your results to the next level. So if you are concerned about losing strength and muscle while dieting or want an edge, this episode is for you. Today, we're looking at a study that demonstrates how restructuring your weekly nutrition pattern preserved significantly more lean mass compared to continuous dieting, despite both approaches creating the identical calorie deficit. We'll go over the evidence, understand why and give you a blueprint to make it happen.

Philip Pape: 0:59

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Hape, and today I'm excited to dig into a research-backed strategy that could give you an edge in your fat loss journey and that is strategically timed. Carbohydrate refeeds, essentially using your weekend, two days a week, to jack the carbs up so that you are eating at your maintenance calories, to potentially give you an edge when compared to having a consistent calorie intake throughout the week. Now, most of us approach dieting with that simple approach at first, which I think is a great place to start, and that is, you reduce your calories to create a deficit and you spread it out, so it's the same every day and then you do that week after week until you reach your goal, and this method absolutely works. But research suggests there could be room for optimization. And if you are in this camp of wondering how do I make this even more effective, today's episode might have you covered. Because what if restructuring the distribution of those calories throughout your week could lead to better muscle preservation and less metabolic slowdown? So today I'm looking at a fascinating study led by my good friend Dr Bill Campbell at the University of South Florida. He's been on the show several times, I had the pleasure of contributing to his research review and we go back and forth a lot on some of these topics. His study with his colleagues was called Intermittent Energy Restriction Attenuates the Loss of Fat-Free Mass in Resistance-Trained Individuals a Randomized Controlled Trial. So I know it's a mouthful. I will have the link to the open access full text of the study in the show notes. And what this research tested is whether a specific pattern of calorie distribution throughout the week could improve body composition outcomes compared to traditional daily restriction, and I kind of brushed this off because we're not brushed it off, but I'll say I brushed off the study and when I heard Bill talk about it on Karen Martell's podcast and it's from 2020, but it is worth revisiting because it still holds up and it's a very powerful potential conclusion for you to experiment with and see if it works for you.

Philip Pape: 3:05

Before we get into it, I do want to make sure you have access to my precision fat loss guide. This is a free guide I created a few months ago and I tweaked it a bit for today's episode to account for these refeeds. This guide complements everything we're discussing today. It walks you through the different ways you can set up your fat loss plan to make it work, based on your personal goals, lifestyle preferences and level of experience, and so it includes all of that. It also includes a whole link, a list of links to relevant episodes on fat loss, depending on where you're coming from. So if you want to download your free copy, use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free. Again, it's the Precision Fat Loss Guide link in the show notes, usually at the very top of the show notes. All right, let's look at the science behind this approach, and then we're going to talk about the potential mechanisms as to why it happened, why the results occurred the way they did, and then we'll talk about how to apply this practically to your own fat loss phase.

Philip Pape: 4:06

So the study in 2020 was published in the Journal of Functional Morphology and Kinesiology, and this was not a study on sedentary or obese populations. It specifically examined resistance trained men and women. So it's directly relevant for those who are tuning into this podcast and focused on physique development, body composition, actually losing fat, because, remember, the premise here is to lose fat. You have to lose body weight, but you need to do it while holding on to muscle. And if this concept is new to you, I have other episodes that will go over the basics. And, again, if you get my precision fat loss guide, the links at the bottom, at the last page are will set you in the right direction.

Philip Pape: 4:47

So back to the study. The researchers recruited 27 participants with an average of five years of resistance training experience, and it was a pretty simple and elegant design, I would say, in my opinion. Uh, participants were randomly assigned to one of two diet interventions, both lasting seven weeks. The first group followed a continuous energy restriction approach. That is essentially the standard method most of us use when dieting, where you have the same deficit every day, and they used a 25% calorie deficit every day of the week.

Philip Pape: 5:18

The second group followed what I'm calling the weekend diet. This is the premise of today's episode, which is you reduce calories more aggressively Monday through Friday so in this case 35% and then increase calories back to maintenance on Saturday and Sunday. And again maintenance. What is that? Maintenance calories are the calories that you burn and therefore, when you are eating to those calories, you're not in a deficit or a surplus, you're just eating to maintain. And the important thing here is those additional calories on the weekend came exclusively from carbohydrates. Now, when you do this in practice we'll talk about this a bit later you don't have to be so precise with having just carbs. Some, some fat, some protein might sneak in there, but predominantly it's from carbohydrates, and there's a reason for that.

Philip Pape: 6:00

And then both groups followed a supervised resistance training program four days per week. They both consumed the same high protein intake of 1.8 grams per kilogram of body weight, which is about 0.8 grams per pound of body weight, which is in the current recommendations for preserving muscle during fat loss phases. I usually give a range of 0.7 to one gram per pound. So it's right in there. And what makes this study extremely valuable is that both approaches created the same weekly deficit. So that is a controlled variable. It's very important that that is controlled.

Philip Pape: 6:35

The only difference was how the calories were distributed across the week. So same training, same protein, same weekly calories, different distribution, so that you can isolate the impact of that distribution as a variable. So what did they find? Well, after seven weeks, both groups lost a similar amount of body weight and fat mass. The weekend diet group lost 3.2 kilograms of weight and 2.8 kilograms of fat kilograms of weight and 2.8 kilograms of fat. The continuous or traditional diet group lost a little more body weight, so 3.6 kilograms, but less a half kilogram less of fat at 2.3. And statistically there were no significant differences in these measures. So our first important insight from this is that restructuring your weekly calorie distribution doesn't necessarily lead to more total weight loss or even more fat loss in the short term, because the basic principle here of energy balance calories in, calories out is still gonna apply. If you create a deficit, you will lose weight. So that's important, right, we're not throwing that premise out at all by any means.

Philip Pape: 7:39

But here's where the data gets interesting. When the researchers measured fat-free mass, which is all of the non-fat tissue you have, so that does include muscle, but it also includes bones, organs and water that's where the significant differences were apparent. So the weekend group lost only 0.4 kilograms of that fat-free mass. The continuous dieting group lost 1.3 kilograms, so that's more than three times as much lean tissue loss in the traditional dieting group. And critics might say, okay, this probably just reflects water retention from the higher carb intake, right? And the researchers anticipated this.

Philip Pape: 8:21

They then measured dry fat-free mass, which excludes total body water. So very, very intelligent here to do that. And the results were actually more pronounced when they did that. The weekend group lost only 0.2 kilograms of dry fat-free mass Very little to no dry fat-free mass, whereas the traditional group lost 1.9 kilograms of fat-free mass. So it actually is even more pronounced when you look at only dry I should say dry fat-free mass. I mean, if you just multiply it, that's 10 times better preservation of lean tissue if you're to use a multiple. But even just in absolute terms, it's close to zero for the weekend group and it's around two kilograms for the continuous group. It's a big difference, right? Two kilograms is almost a pound of fat-free mass loss, and so that is potentially, right there, a substantial advantage if your goal is to maintain muscle and strength during fat loss, right, instead of just looking at the fat loss piece of the equation, looking at the fact that muscle was very well preserved.

Philip Pape: 9:23

Now the researchers also measured resting metabolic rate RMR, right, a component of your total daily energy expenditure and they found that the weekend diet group had only half the reduction of the traditional group. Their RMR decreased by about 38 calories a day. The continuous group reduced by 78 calories per day. Now, neither number is huge in absolute terms, but we're talking only about seven weeks and I have frequently seen in my clients and myself large swings in expenditure, especially a drop during fat loss. If you could do anything to make that less, that means you could eat more food and lose the same amount of weight per week, or you can create a bigger deficit with the same amount of food, right? Either way it's an advantage and, again, both approaches are shown to be effective for fat loss. But the weekend diet strategy seems to have advantages, with preserving muscle mass and minimizing the slowdown in your metabolism, and that is huge. That is actually very huge.

Philip Pape: 10:22

So we want to understand why this is happening and if so, we have to look at the physiological mechanisms behind them. Why the heck would restructuring your weekly calories while maintaining the same deficit lead to such different body composition outcomes? The first mechanism, I think, involves the carbs and the insulin and how that impacts protein metabolism. When you consume carbs, insulin levels rise. I think many of us know that. Right, blood sugar spikes, insulin spikes, whatever you want to call it, and A lot of people think of insulin as a bad thing.

Philip Pape: 10:54

They think of it as in terms of fat storage, right, and in sedentary people it can be a problem. It's often associated with prediabetes, diabetes et cetera. But when you are building muscle, when you're active, when you're lifting, it has very powerful anti-catabolic properties. I had a whole episode on this in the past about the benefit of eating carbs specifically for that purpose, which is reducing the breakdown of muscle tissue, and it's because of the insulin. So during a calorie deficit, what's happening? Well, muscle protein synthesis is happening, but also breakdown is happening, and it shifts toward net breakdown right, greater breakdown than synthesis If you can strategically bump up your insulin with these carb refeeds this weekend diet. It might create this window of reduced breakdown that is more pronounced than the increased breakdown during the week from having slightly more restrictive calories and doesn't compromise fat loss. So your net shift for the week is potentially toward a little bit less breakdown of muscle. Okay, following me on that. That's the first mechanism.

Philip Pape: 12:02

The second mechanism is the impact of the continuous, prolonged energy restriction with the traditional approach on your anabolic signaling pathways. Because in extended deficit we know that it suppresses your muscle building machinery. We know this happens over time. It's why you start to lose strength, you start to lose muscle mass. It just makes it harder to maintain tissue. It's not the end of the world, right? That's why we use reasonable deficits and reasonable durations to minimize that. And you can still do that and have great results. But by periodically returning to maintenance, even for just two days a week, this weekend diet might temporarily normalize these anabolic pathways and give you a little relief from the opposite catabolic pressure that's occurring. So it gets you into I think Bill mentioned this phrase himself. He called it a neutral anabolic state as opposed to a catabolic state. Right, and that difference on just those two days again could make a difference for the week compared to the continuous group and you're taking a break.

Philip Pape: 13:03

The third mechanism is the effect of muscle glycogen. We know that, of course, while you're dieting, your carbs are lower and you are depleting your muscle glycogen more than you would if you weren't restricted. That impacts your training performance. It reduces your energy available for the high intensity contractions from our lifting. And then that lower training intensity simply means less of the mechanical tension you're looking to get on your muscles, which is the primary stimulus for maintaining muscle. Long story short, fewer carbs, harder to train is hard and get as much muscle stimulus.

Philip Pape: 13:37

And the weekend carb refeed effectively replenishes those stores. Right, it's like you're refilling the battery, whereas in the traditional approach it's always a little bit depleted. Well, now you're refilling it once a week and because it's on the weekend, most people train on the weekdays, right, most people, again, traditional kind of calendar approach and therefore you're really jacking up your fuel stores right before your first hard training session of the week, which sets you up maybe for more success and progress that if you're just constantly slightly depleted. And this this also brings up in my mind the idea that the weekend doesn't have to be Saturday and Sunday. You may have a shift type shift type job where you work on the weekends. It might be another two days of the week. I do think it's probably important to have the two days to be contiguous.

Philip Pape: 14:23

I'm not sure the study tried to compare that, but that would be my thought. Now, the study I don't think it directly measured workout performance, but it's probably an indirect result of what was going on. It is that replenishing the glycogen on the weekend supported higher training intensity and created better conditions for muscle preservation, leading to the last component which frankly underpins everything I just said, and that's the psychological piece, the mental piece. Both study groups maintained really good adherence, over 90% completion. But if you think about the real world that we live in, knowing that you can eat more on the weekends is probably going to improve your long-term compliance and I've seen this with all types of nonlinear dieting where the variety and the ability to eat more on some days it just creates mental relief and it reduces diet fatigue and that mental relief from having the higher planned weekend refeeds makes the process more sustainable. You can stick with it long term and, granted, that doesn't speak directly to the weekly muscle preservation and metabolic slowdown, but it does allow you to stick with the diet and it's a great reason to consider this anyway reason to consider this anyway. So that's, that's, in my opinion, the main mechanisms.

Philip Pape: 15:44

And notice, I didn't mention leptin in there. I'll get back to that a little bit later because there's some, I'll say, myths about leptin replenishment and how effective that is, but we'll get back to that. I want to talk about now how you apply these to your fat loss approach and make it practical. So the very first thing we always have to do during fat loss is prepare for it, and I'm going to assume you've done that. That's outside the scope of today's episode, but effectively, you've started training consistently, you're tracking your food, you're eating sufficient protein and you know what your maintenance calories are.

Philip Pape: 16:11

Now how do you know your maintenance calories? Well, you've been tracking your food and weight for at least two to three weeks. Now. You can do that on your own or you can do that in Macrofactor, which is my favorite app. It's the only app on the market that does this Chronometer, myfitnesspal none of those apps can actually estimate your expenditure and give you real targets each week based on that. So download Macrofactor from your app store. If you don't have it already, use my code, witsandweightweights. All one word for two weeks free and it's going to change your life.

Philip Pape: 16:38

But that's what you need to start with is knowing what your maintenance calories are. Once you know that, you can say okay, what rate of loss do I want to go after? For most people, a half a percent a week is really solid, but up to 1% of your body weight per week, which is kind of the upper end for most people outside of advanced populations that I work with, which might go more aggressively, but usually that's the max. And that's because you want to balance the meaningful progress right. You don't want to just take two years for fat loss, you want to do it in a fairly decent timeframe. But you also want it to be sustainable, mentally sustainable, right? Not just with the weekend diet approach we're going to talk about, but just in general the amount of calories that you eat and keeping in mind that the weekend diet approach is going to reduce your weekday calories even further. So you might not want to go as aggressively because of it.

Philip Pape: 17:29

So I'm going to use a I'll call it moderately aggressive number in here of 0.75% just to crunch some numbers for you and give you an idea of what it looks like. So let's say you weigh 180 pounds and you're saying, okay, I'm going to lose 1.35 pounds a week. And since a pound of fat contains 3,500 calories, roughly this translates to a weekly deficit. Okay, for the whole week a deficit of 4,725 calories, so a little over 4,700 calories. So instead of distributing that evenly, which would be a 675 calorie a day deficit, the weekend diet is going to concentrate that deficit into the five weekdays. So now you're going to divide that calories by five and that gives you a weekday deficit of 945 calories.

Philip Pape: 18:14

So if your maintenance intake, your maintenance calories, are 2,500 a day right, that's how many calories you burn, and if you ate that you would maintain your weight you would now want to consume around 1,555 calories during the weekdays. Let's round it to 1,600, so the numbers aren't too complicated. So you would be eating 1600 calories a day Monday through Friday, but then on Saturday and Sunday you jack it up to your maintenance at 2500 calories, with the increase coming primarily from carbohydrates. So if you do some math, it comes out to like an extra 200 something grams of carbs on Saturday and Sunday, which is a decent amount of carbs, and the resulting glycogen flooding your system. And so what this does is it creates the same weekly energy deficit as if you spread it out across seven days. But now you have these structured periods of higher energy availability that, according to this study, might better preserve muscle mass and metabolic rate, and potentially to a really nice degree. So for optimal results here, you are going to have sufficient protein, which is again about 0.8 grams per pound in this case, and for our 180 pound example, that means 145 grams of protein a day. Your fat is going to be pegged at some reasonable amount, usually around 30% of your calories, and then the rest come from carbs.

Philip Pape: 19:38

Now, when you go on the weekend side of the diet, right when the weekend comes around, you want to add in the extra calories from mostly carbs. But again, naturally, you might increase your fats and proteins, because a lot of the food we eat is a blend of macros, it's not just carbs. Now, granted, if you just add more rice or add more potatoes, you're going to have mostly carbohydrates, you know. Add more fruit. Those are the sources of carbs that I would generally recommend are whole food sources of carbs, but of course you can have some indulgences in there, like we discuss.

Philip Pape: 20:09

When it comes to flexible dieting, and here's the cool thing about the weekend diet it aligns really well with how most people live their life. Right, most people have the. They go out on the weekends, they have the social situations, the parties, the travel. All of that happens on the weekends generally, again, unless you have a different schedule, and so these higher calorie days are perhaps more enjoyable, more practical to implement. Because of these real world lifestyle constraints and because you've planned it in, it becomes even less fatiguing and less of a strain on your ability to feel successful, right, like every week is a win because you've planned in all this food. And, by the way, let me tell you, when you do this and you get used to your weekly structure and then Friday comes along and then you get to Saturday, it might actually feel like a lot of food to bump up those carbs on Saturday and Sunday. So that's where deciding how to do it and how to adjust your timing and meal planning appropriately for the Saturday and Sunday, treating them as different than the rest of the week, is going to be really important here. So the Campbell study did measure leptin I wanted to talk about leptin real quick leptin levels and they found that they predictably decreased during the diet in both groups, which is expected, and past research has revealed something about carbs and leptin specifically that I wanted to cover today that, I think, adds another dimension to this weekend diet If you think of leptin.

Philip Pape: 21:32

Leptin is your body's satiety hormone. It signals that you have enough energy coming in. It tells your brain I've got enough energy coming in and so I'm fine, I'm full, I'm satisfied. When you're in a diet, when you're dieting with restricted calories, the leptin goes down and that's what triggers increased hunger. It also is tied to your metabolic rate. You have an adaptive response we call it metabolic adaptation which is tied to multiple hormones, including thyroid, insulin, cortisol, et cetera.

Philip Pape: 22:01

But leptin's a very, very important one. It's the primary trigger for this adaptive response and that is why many of us have trouble prolonging our diets for too long, because your calories just drop, drop, drop, drop and you have to drop the calories along with them, or you just don't lose as fast when you think of carbohydrates, especially when you consume them in high amounts above your daily energy requirements. So in this case we're jacking up to maintenance which potentially is even slightly above your true maintenance at the moment. When you do that, we know that it can rapidly increase leptin on those days. And this is a temporary thing, right, it's just temporary. It doesn't permanently increase your metabolism or anything that some of the influencers try to convince you of with reverse dieting and all that. No, it's a temporary hormonal response and it might attenuate or mitigate some of the adaptive mechanisms from the dieting, from the energy restriction, even if it is just for a few days. But it gives you, yes, physiological relief, because the leptin is higher and you've got the energy flooding your system, but also mental relief from the stress of dieting.

Philip Pape: 23:06

And this is what it effectively does, is it turns your weekend into a, an advantage, and that's why I like this approach. And also, you don't view you don't view going higher on the weekend, like when you go out to eat and you have the appetizer and you have the dessert as this failure, as this all or nothing thing. You're actually optimizing, planning it in, structuring it in. It's pretty cool. It's not cheating either. It's not a cheat weekend Because you're not just going hog wild with unfettered access to whatever. You are strategically bumping up your carbs and, by the way, we do this in a very micro level. When we do rapid fat loss, we'll do like four days of very severe restriction and then one day of refeed, and again, we're not cheating on those days, we're strategically bringing up the carbs. So this weekend diet recognizes that your body's not just a calorie calculator. It is a very complex adaptive system and it responds to all the inputs how much you eat, when you eat it, how you move, how you train, all of it. And so we're kind of making this work with our natural rhythms instead of fighting against them, and so it makes it super sustainable.

Philip Pape: 24:13

I'm actually going to be telling, uh suggesting more of my clients consider this than I have in the past, specifically because I re-reviewed what the evidence has said and I think there is a lot of validity to this. So, to summarize, dr Campbell's research which again shout out to him for doing this work in his lab down at USF suggests that the weekend diet reducing calories more aggressively Monday through Friday, and then increasing carbs to maintenance on weekends, could give you advantages for preserving muscle and mitigating some of the metabolic slowdown. Remember, it's the same fat loss but it's more muscle retention. So, effectively, it's more fat loss, because now maybe you could go a little more aggressively and hold on to muscle and lose a little more fat, or you could simply stay where you are, eat more food, potentially have better training performance, better psychological adherence all of those things we talked about and it naturally aligns with most people's lifestyle patterns, which we're all about here. We're all about, like, making it work for your lifestyle rather than white knuckling it and pushing through.

Philip Pape: 25:19

So if you've tried fat loss in the past and you had, say, more muscle loss than you wanted, or your performance dropped faster than you wanted and or even just psychologically it felt like a slog, try this out. Right, try this out. It's the weekend diet. It couldn't be simpler. If you're using macro factor, I suggest doing it this way. I suggest setting the deficit to the Monday through Friday deficit and just distributing the calories evenly, but on the weekends, just manually increase your carbs. I think that's the easiest way to manage it in the app. Alternatively, you could use the collaborative mode to adjust the macros a little bit manually, which I believe you could also make it work that way. So, whatever works for you, if you're working with me as a client, I'll tell you exactly how to do it.

Philip Pape: 26:05

Anyway, last thing I'm going to leave you with is again download my free Precision Fat Loss Guide, and I'm asking you to do that because it does contain all of the possible flexible and creative approaches to fat loss that you might consider how to do them, the speed, the duration, who it's good for, who it's not good for, and they've got check boxes and Xs basically in these tables to tell you like this is probably the ideal dieting approach for you right now and then that can set you off on a chain of discovery and learning and setting up your fat loss phase for success. Just go to witsandweightscom, slash free, or just click the link in the show notes at the top to get your copy today. All right, Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that sometimes the smartest approach isn't doing the same thing every day, but finding the right rhythm that works for you. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.