The 98% Success Method to Go Alcohol-Free and Get Lean (James Swanwick) | Ep 325
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Do you feel like alcohol helps you relax? What if it’s quietly sabotaging your fitness, sleep, and focus?
I welcome James Swanwick, former ESPN anchor and founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, and we talk about why so many smart, health-focused people still drink, even when they know it’s holding them back. James breaks down the hidden impact alcohol has on your sleep, metabolism, hormones, and mindset, and why willpower alone isn’t the answer.
He also shares how to reframe your relationship with alcohol using science-backed tools from his book “Clear” and his 90-day program. If you’re serious about building a strong body and a clear mind, this might be the shift you didn’t know you needed.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:07 – How alcohol became culturally normal
5:07 – One drink a day still harms your brain
9:42 – The smiling assassins in our lives
13:14 – Alcohol vs food: the real cost
20:29 – The hormonal and metabolic toll
25:50 – Why “don’t drink” backfires
33:02 – Rewiring your environment and cues
38:19 – When to try non-alcoholic substitutes
42:34 – A glimpse into the alcohol-free life
47:32 – Outro
Episode resources:
James Swanwick’s book: CLEAR
Instagram: @jamesswanwick
Why High Performers Struggle to Quit Drinking (And How to Fix It)
You eat protein. You train. You track macros. You even hit 10k steps before breakfast.
But Friday night rolls around and somehow a few drinks sneak in again.
The truth is, you probably already know alcohol isn't helping. It hurts your sleep, tanks your workouts, and delays fat loss. But knowing that doesn’t make it easier to stop. Especially when it’s been baked into your lifestyle for decades—work dinners, parties, wind-downs after long days, and those smiling friends who hand you a drink before you can say no.
In this episode, I sat down with James Swanwick, former ESPN anchor and founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, to talk about why smart, health-conscious people still drink—and what to do instead.
This isn’t about white-knuckling sobriety. It’s about building a better lifestyle, one that aligns with your goals, energy, mindset, and physical performance.
The 98% Method: Why Willpower Fails
Most attempts to quit drinking rely on willpower. But James explains that this is like fighting a battle with no armor. It’s not sustainable, and it’s not how our brains work.
The root of the problem? Your brain’s reward system.
We’re conditioned from childhood to associate alcohol with celebration, relaxation, and connection. It becomes so embedded in our identity that we don’t even question it. But alcohol doesn’t reduce stress—it creates it. You're drinking to numb the stress that alcohol caused in the first place.
And because the body prioritizes detoxing alcohol, it shuts down fat burning, slows metabolism, disrupts sleep, and alters hormones like testosterone, estrogen, and melatonin. Even one drink affects your performance, hunger, mood, and motivation for 24–48 hours afterward.
That’s what James calls “death by a thousand cuts.”
Why Your Fit Lifestyle and Alcohol Can’t Coexist
Even “moderate” drinking—the kind your doctor or friends might call harmless—erodes progress in subtle ways:
It delays muscle recovery
It stalls fat loss by slowing your metabolism
It disrupts your sleep architecture
It increases cravings for carbs and sugar
It lowers testosterone and increases estrogen in men
It raises breast cancer risk in women
And it turns social events into environments you associate with drinking, making it harder to break free
Here’s the deal: you can’t optimize your physique and drink regularly. At some point, the tradeoff just doesn’t make sense.
So how do you actually stop?
James’s Alcohol-Free Lifestyle method uses neuroscience, habit design, and positive psychology to break the cycle. Here are a few key principles:
Stop saying “don’t drink.” The brain doesn’t process negatives. Instead, say “I choose to drink soda water with lime tonight.” Tell your brain what to do, not what to avoid.
Eliminate cues in your home. Remove the liquor cabinet, the wine glasses, the “just in case” bottles. Replace them with visual cues for hydration, health, and vitality.
Reframe the identity. Don’t call yourself “sober” like it’s punishment. Say “I live alcohol-free.” Own it. Be proud of it. It’s not a limitation. It’s an upgrade.
Practice gratitude. Write down 20 things you’re grateful for every day. This reduces cravings by more than 30%, and helps fill the emotional gap alcohol used to mask.
Surround yourself with the right tribe. People who support your goals. People who don’t pressure you to drink. James calls them “smiling givers,” not “smiling assassins.”
And if you’re not ready to go alcohol-free forever, start with 90 days. But don’t just “survive” it. Enjoy the process. You’ll be shocked how much better you look, feel, and perform without it.
What to expect after quitting
Better sleep (the kind that actually restores your body)
More consistent energy
Faster fat loss with less effort
More visible muscle definition
Sharper mental clarity
Less bloating, water retention, and inflammation
Higher self-confidence and drive
Improved relationships and conversations—without numbing yourself
And yes, you’ll probably get better looking too. Just saying.
If you’ve built a strong foundation for fitness and health but alcohol still has a seat at the table, this is your chance to remove it for good—and get results that finally match your effort.
Have you followed the podcast?
Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.
Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!
Transcript
Philip Pape: 0:01
You want to cut back on alcohol. You've even tried a few times, yet somehow Friday night rolls around there you are, glass in hand, making the same old excuse about just want to relax, or I just enjoy the beer or the wine. What if I told you alcohol isn't actually helping you unwind at all? Today, my guest is a former ESPN anchor and the founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, and he's revealing the neuroscience behind why smart, successful people continue drinking, despite often knowing better. You'll discover why willpower fails, how alcohol sabotages your fitness goals, even a little bit of drinking, and a practical approach to breaking free without depriving yourself. If you want to stop letting alcohol rob you of mental clarity and physical results, this conversation is for you.
Philip Pape: 0:53
Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing a topic that affects nearly everyone pursuing better health and fitness, and that is our relationship with alcohol, with drinking. We all know that alcohol isn't great for our health goals, but many of us, especially high achievers, continue drinking regularly despite knowing better. And why is that? And can we approach this in a way that doesn't feel like deprivation? To answer these questions. I'm joined by James Swanick, a former SportsCenter anchor on ESPN, host of the Alcohol Free Lifestyle podcast and author of a new book, clear, which gives you a neuroscience-based method to quit drinking, based on root causes and not on brute force or willpower. Today, you'll learn why smart people keep drinking even when they want to stop, the false beliefs we construct around alcohol, how drinking affects your fitness goals and, of course, some tips to break free from alcohol without feeling deprived. James, thank you so much and welcome to the show.
James Swanwick: 1:54
Thank you very much. Great to be here, Philip.
Philip Pape: 1:56
So, rather than jump into the topic of why people drink, I'm curious about when alcohol became so normal, like, why and when did it become so normal in society?
James Swanwick: 2:07
It starts when we are little kids and our parents say to us or the adult figures in our life say to us oh no, no, little Philip or James, you can't drink now. You can drink when you're older. And so our parents or the adult figures in our life implant this idea that drinking alcohol is something to aspire to, it's a rite of passage, you get to do it, it's something to savor. I would submit that is a nonsense. It's just attractively packaged poison, but that's where it starts. Also, there's this conditioning that in order to create romance, in order to create camaraderie, in order to create celebration, we must have attractively packaged poison present, which, of course, is a ridiculous notion.
James Swanwick: 2:48
However, that has been passed forward through generations after generation, and now we're in this. What I submit is this ridiculous cultural society where we have just normalized drinking, this poison which, as you reference, can be so damaging. And I don't mean so damaging because you're waking up in a ditch or you're drinking excessively. I mean so damaging that you only have one or two seemingly innocent drinks per day. That can still be damaging, and I call that death by a thousand cuts. It's not the waking up in a ditch, getting arrested, doing anything too crazy, but over many years and decades it catches up with you.
Philip Pape: 3:33
Attractively packaged poison. I like it. Okay, so we know where we're going with this show. You know I want to pull on a thread there. When you talk about conditioning from a young age, I definitely see that my dad drank beer pretty much regularly, like all his friends and all his peers, and I drank quite a bit most of my adult life. What about cultures where it is not as aspirational and I don't know if those exist, like people think of France, kids start drinking from a young age, or whatever age, and it's not as taboo. Are there any differences there that we see, or is it pretty much the same thing, just at different ages?
James Swanwick: 4:07
I would submit it's the same thing. Different ages. I mean, there are some cultural differences where, like you referenced, in France, people kind of build this idea of connection and family we must drink this poison. But I'm saying you can build connection and family without drinking the poison. And you know, the French may feel like, oh, this is a great way to create family ties, et cetera, but at what cost? And that's what I really try to do in my book, clear, and what I try to do with my work, which is we're so focused on normalizing this alcohol and we justify it. Oh yeah, it's fine to give kids 15, 14, 15, 16 alcohol in France. You know, as long as they're not getting drunk, it's just a little thing, it's fine. But what we're doing is we're setting them up for a lifetime of drinking habits.
James Swanwick: 4:52
And again in 2022, there was a study out of the UK of 35,000 middle-aged adults which showed that even one seemingly innocent drink per night was enough to cause some level of gray and white matter destruction in the brain, in other words, some level of brain degeneration.
James Swanwick: 5:07
And yet, culturally, we hang on to this idea that drinking is fine. It's fine, it's fine, it's no big deal. I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not getting arrested, it's fine. It's not fine and all of the new studies are showing that like the, the strain it puts on our heart, on our our liver, on our sleep, on our gains that we want in the gym, the additional calories we're consuming that we ordinarily would not if we weren't drinking, which can lead to a loss of confidence, which can lead to craving more sugary foods, which can lead to overeating, which can lead to obesity, which can lead to irritation and stress and frustration. I'm trying to really articulate to people that the death by a thousand cuts are often silent cuts, invisible. You don't see them. But if we trace it all back, we can trace it back to starting drinking at age 14 or 15.
Philip Pape: 6:05
Yeah, and I would love the listener to come out of this episode even if they're skeptical or objective in terms of the cost benefit. A lot of people do the cost benefit trade-offs of any of this stuff. I mean, obviously nobody says here's a little Oxy, it's okay, here's a little heroin, it's okay. And there's a cultural difference in how we treat alcohol as a premise. Right, that we have to break through. But then if we could get to the point where someone says, look, even one drink a month is a problem and or here's the trade-off I'm making, that would be helpful.
Philip Pape: 6:36
You mentioned gains. That's like the key word, man, for everybody listening. They're like, okay, you got my attention. Now, james, let's talk about how it hurts my gains. But really I want to go back to why people then defend it, besides the generalities that we talked about, why specific people rationalize it even when they know that it's bad, and we're going to get into why it's not great and why it's death by a thousand cuts. But most people know let's be honest, right, and those in my community who listen to this podcast we definitely have talked about the hormonal impacts, the fat loss impacts, excessive consumption, sleep impacts, all of that. We'll get into that, but why do people defend it in your practice?
James Swanwick: 7:14
People have been using it to relieve themselves of stress and anxiety, and they become addicted to that way of relieving themselves of stress and anxiety. They become addicted to that way of relieving themselves of stress and anxiety. The irony is is that we're drinking it to relieve ourselves of the very stress and anxiety that drinking itself is creating in the first place, and then we get stuck on this vicious stop-start cycle. This vicious cycle we're also in our reptilian brain, if we go back hundreds of thousands of years and if you understand the concept of Dunbar's tribe. Dunbar suggested that we used to be in tribes of about 160 people when we roamed. The earth happened that meant almost certain death, because a rival tribe would kill you, or the saber-toothed tiger would chase you and eat you, or the bear would get you, or the wolf would get you, or you'd die of isolation somehow. Now the reality is in the modern world, we're not going to die from being kicked out of a tribe, but nevertheless, that reptilian fear that we have still exists, and so that shows up with oh, if I'm not drinking, my friends will kick me out of the tribe, society will kick me out of the tribe. It's this irrational fear in the modern world, a rational fear in the you know, years and years and years and years ago, centuries ago, but an irrational fear in today's world. So we keep justifying it because it makes us feel safe. We keep justifying it because it temporarily numbs us from the pain of being ourselves, because reaching for a drink is really only reaching for the pursuit of feeling something different in the moment.
James Swanwick: 9:04
In most cases, people with a drinking problem, let's say, are drinking to relieve themselves of an uncomfortable feeling. And so if you then remove this thing that they've been trained to go to when they feel discomfort of any kind, well what are they left with? Discomfort, discomfort, and that feels awful and unsettling, which is why people defend it so much because it does give them that temporarily, because it does numb themselves from the pain, because it does allow them to procrastinate on key strategic decisions in their life. And also, addition, there are smiling assassins all over the world, and a smiling assassin is someone who's smiling as they offer you a drink or as they're drinking with you.
James Swanwick: 9:52
It's the waiter or the waitress who says hello, mr Pape, can I get you started with a glass of 10 pounds of unwanted body weight? Hello, mr Swanwick, can I get you started with a bad night's sleep and some shame and regret in the morning. That's essentially what they're saying when they show up and they're like oh, hello sir, hello ma'am, I'll be your waiter tonight. I'll be your server. Can I get you started from the drinks menu. And then our friends are smiling hey, phil, can I get you a drink? James, can I get you a?
Philip Pape: 10:20
drink.
James Swanwick: 10:20
And they try to be hospitable hosts. That's very nice of them offering me a drink, but they're offering me attractively packaged poison, and so if everyone, as they're consuming this alcohol, is smiling and portraying this image of camaraderie, then the idea that you would stop drinking, unconsciously or consciously, means you are now rejecting the camaraderie, you're rejecting the tribe, You're rejecting culture, yeah, fear of getting kicked out of the tribe, hence commercials that portray huge parties and a grand old time when drinking.
Philip Pape: 11:00
It's interesting because, philosophically I don't know if you found this to be true in your life, not even with alcohol, but with anything it seems like the thing everyone doing, often not the, not the thing we want to be doing. Do you notice that? Okay, so there's a little carve out in there. I want to address, because people are going to say well, what if I'm the type of person who I drink one beer every three weeks and it's at home, by myself or with my family because I like the taste of beer, right, those kinds of? I'm trying to dig into some of the rationales people have and I'm curious about those.
James Swanwick: 11:29
If they're drinking one beer every three weeks, you know, candidly, I don't see there's any real issue with that. If you generally like the taste and you're drinking a beer or two every three weeks, that's not going to cause too many problems, from my research and from what I have read. But then the question really is are you sure that it's only three weeks? Are you sure it's every three weeks? And most people, if they're honest when they dig into it, maybe it's not, maybe I'm drinking a little bit more consistently than I would like to admit. In that scenario, philip, there's no real challenge, no real problem.
James Swanwick: 12:03
Long-term health consequences? Short-term, sure, because if you're drinking beer anywhere close to bedtime, that's going to compromise your sleep. And when you have a compromised sleep you wake up just a little bit irritable, just a little bit more fatigued, a little bit more tired. Your body stores a little bit more fat. You don't lift as heavy in the gym, you're not as motivated to go to the gym in the first place Because you're tired. You might then reach for a sugary food to give you a little bit of an energy boost. So ordinarily you wouldn't eat the chocolate bar or the muffin, but now you reach for the chocolate bar and the muffin, or the Gatorade instead of a soda water, and now you're drinking some more sugar and you know what I mean Like.
James Swanwick: 12:37
So these kind of things can really happen, and most people are drinking close to bedtime. That destroys your sleep. What you're essentially doing when you drink close to bedtime is clocking in for a night's work at a time when you are supposed to be clocking out from the day's work. Your body wants to be resting, it doesn't want to be working. So again, coming back to it, look, a drink on occasion here and there, as long as you don't feel like it's compromising your life, no problems. But be aware even that is going to compromise your sleep, which is going to compromise the following day.
Philip Pape: 13:14
Yeah, and I think people will compare. Sometimes they'll compare alcohol to say poor food choices. And I'm all about flexible dieting, right, like if you're eating 80%, 90% whole nutritious foods, then indulge in the rest, you're probably in the top 95% as far as diets go. But what are your thoughts about that when people compare the allowances they give themselves for that flexibility on the food side versus the alcohol side? Because I feel like there's zero benefit to alcohol, whereas the food at least has contextual benefit.
James Swanwick: 13:48
I mean, why are we negotiating with ourselves over this? Like, why are we still clamoring on how can I have a drink? Can I have a drink? I'll just drink on weekends. I'll just drink on special occasions. What is it about it that's so special? It's piss in an attractive bottle, like.
James Swanwick: 14:06
I really challenged this. The first time anyone had a drink probably you were 12, 13, 14, you had a sip or something. Did it taste nice? Nope, of course it didn't. I remember my dad gave me brandy and I spat it out. I went ugh. So it naturally doesn't taste good. We've acquired the taste as we've gone along again.
James Swanwick: 14:26
Why are we just so in love with this damn thing? Do you remember the movie raiders of the lost ark with, yeah, of course, indiana jones? You know in that in the first scene where he's got the idol and he's running away from the, the, the boulder, and then he kind of escapes the boulder but then the nazi is there with the tribes and then the tribes andmen are all got their bows and arrows pointed at him and he has to hand over, reluctantly, the idol to the nazi sympathizer and the nazi sympathizer holds up the idol and all the tribesmen quickly stop pointing the bow and arrow at indiana jones and start bowing down and saluting this idol, this golden, golden idol, and that enables Indiana Jones to make his escape. That's what we're doing with alcohol. We're bowing down and worshiping the idol of alcohol.
James Swanwick: 15:15
And I say why? I say why are we worshiping this false god? Because it's like a toxic friend. It doesn't want you to leave it, it doesn't want you to break up with it, it doesn't do anything good for you, it doesn't serve you. And yet you're staying in this toxic relationship. You're choosing to stay in this toxic relationship while simultaneously bowing down and saluting it. So we're frustrated by the consequences of the relationship, yet we're still, like in the raiders of the lost ark movie, bowing down and worshiping it. So just stop worshiping it, stop clinging to this idea like oh, but I can just drink on a special occasion. Why is drinking worthy of being referred to as a special occasion? The special occasion is health, joy, clarity, focus, a good night's sleep, great connection, fun, laughter, movement, connection, gratitude. That is the special occasion. And you can have a special occasion every damn day of your life, living alcohol free.
Philip Pape: 16:23
Yeah, I love it and I think, at least in my personal experience, the relationship with alcohol for me and I've seen this for a lot of people evolved as I embraced a healthy lifestyle elsewhere. Right, and I think that's at least those listening to this show. I'm hoping that you know this, this episode I can share with them to say, look, you care so much about lifting, moving, eating right, mental health, walking, sleeping. Why is this special, is what you're saying, and so maybe we hit on the top couple reasons, one you already mentioned, which is that we think it relieves stress and we think it's going to help us unwind, and it's even worse when we do it at night. But why isn't that the case? Why does it not actually relieve stress and what's happening physiologically? Yeah, well, it actually creates more stress.
James Swanwick: 17:06
And what's happening physiologically? Yeah well, it actually creates more stress Temporarily. When we drink it, it gives us this temporary, illusionary sense of relief Right, so it does provide this feeling of relief for a little while 20 minutes, 45 minutes an hour but then the consequences of that relief then create more stress and anxiety. That leaves you craving, wanting to then create more stress and anxiety. That leaves you craving, wanting to relieve yourself of stress and anxiety. And it's this perpetual vicious cycle. It's this merry-go-round that you just are unable to get off.
James Swanwick: 17:39
When we drink, the body straight away recognizes it as a foreign poison and the body then goes to work to try to rid itself of the poison. We're consuming toxins. The body doesn't like these toxins. The body's then saying how do I get rid of these toxins? So you're now putting undue strain, unwanted, undesirable strain on the body. The liver goes to work, the heart rate increases. That puts pressure on the heart. The enzymes liver enzymes go up. It also has us increasing our appetite. So we end up eating more food than we might ordinarily eat just because we've drunk a glass of red wine or a beer or a scotch or whatever. All of a sudden, because it's turning into sugar. It leaves our body going oh okay, I want more of this. Let me get more of this. You know, you haven't eaten carbs for a while and then you start eating carbs and then you just really desire more carbs. That's what happens.
Philip Pape: 18:39
Deprivation amplifies desire. Yep.
James Swanwick: 18:41
Yeah, and think about it Like you go to a restaurant and you sit down and you're trying to do a cut and you're trying to watch your calories, you're trying to lose some weight, and you say I'm not having the dessert tonight, no way. And the smiling assassin comes over and says oh, can I get you a glass of wine? Oh, just have a glass of Riesling or one glass of white wine. Okay, you're just drinking 300 calories in that white wine, same amount of calories as a donut or a packet of crisps, but more than that, because the drink now increases your appetite. Now, when the dessert menu comes over, the smiling assassin goes oh, can I get you some desserts, some cake? Would you like the cookie? And you're like all right, okay, who do you want to split it with me? All right, all right, okay, we'll have it after all. And then you have that cake half a cake, a few bites, maybe the whole damn thing. And then you get that cake half a cake, a few bites, maybe the whole damn thing. And then you get in the taxi or the Uber and you go home and you go to sleep. And then you wake up in the morning and you go oh man, I wish I didn't have that glass of wine and that piece of cheesecake last night, right, and now you've undone all the good work that you had.
James Swanwick: 19:43
So, look, it causes the body to go to to work. But you don't want the body to go to work, at least not in that way. You want the body to go to work when you're in the gym and you're looking for gains. You want to build some muscle, you're looking to burn so bad, that's when you want the body to work. But guess what a great night's sleep is where the repair from that work happens. But when you are looking to rest to grow the muscle, to get the gains, you're now saying oh no, we're not going to rest, I'm putting you to work again. The body's unable to do what you want it to do from the intention that you have from going to the gym in the first place so does it also impact hormones?
Philip Pape: 20:29
my understanding is that moderate, almost daily drinking does have a really insidious impact on hormones lowers libido in men, raises the risk of breast cancer in women, slows down the metabolism.
James Swanwick: 20:48
So if you're looking to burn unwanted body weight, for example, it's not going to happen if you're drinking, or it's not going to happen as effectively if you are drinking. You're just literally pouring more calories in and also slowing down the process. There's a couple of studies out. I'll have to dig in a little bit more into those studies but they found that one or two drinks the night before is enough to slow down your metabolism to the point of a few pounds a week. I'd have to dig into that a little bit more, but I know that your listeners here are particularly interested in lifting weights and gains and losing weight, muscle and things like that. So if, if you're if, let's just say, fat loss is your goal, that can slow down your metabolism enough to have you leaving.
James Swanwick: 21:33
Have you feeling frustrated that you're not losing as much weight? I'm actually on a cut at the moment. I'm tracking all of my food with MyFitnessPal and I'm walking 16, 17,000 steps a day at the moment and I'm trying to do like under 1650 calories a day and I've been tracking it. In the first seven days I lost a lot of money, not a lot of money, I'm sorry, a lot of pounds. Six pounds in in a week and then it kind of stalled and I got a bit frustrated. What's going on?
James Swanwick: 22:04
And then when I kind of dug it, I realized I wasn't entering a couple of drinks, not alcoholic drinks, but I wasn't adding electrolyte drinks and some coffee into the app. I was just putting the food, not the liquids. And when I looked at like the electrolytes how many calories and stuff were in the electrolytes, I was like, oh my God, there's like 100 there. And oh my God, the coffee there. There's like a 50 or 100 there, depending if it's a latte or not.
James Swanwick: 22:28
And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, that's two, that's 200, maybe 300 calories a day over seven days. That's 2100 calories. Like to have that? Yeah, yeah, at least that's enough for you not to lose that weight. So the same thing with the alcohol, right, not only is it additional calories, but it's the slowing down of the metabolism, it's's the disruption of the hormones your melatonin release. Melatonin is an important hormone for sleep that doesn't release in the way that nature intended it to release when you drink destroys sleep. So, yes, there's massive hormonal effects if you drink even innocent amounts of drink, of alcohol.
Philip Pape: 23:04
Yeah, people need to understand this because there's cascading effects. There's the stoppage of fat oxidation because the toxins have to be metabolized first. There's all of that and the last question I guess I have before we get into the neuroscience and then how we break this habit, because ultimately people are like, okay, now what do we do? Is there anything else you would put at the same level as alcohol, assuming someone is not smoking or taking drugs? Is there anything else you would put equivalent to alcohol or near it, or is it in a class of its own?
James Swanwick: 23:34
That's a great question. There's a couple of studies that have come out over the past five or six years, so just before the pandemic hit. There was a study that I referenced in my book, clear, which showed the damage and harm to individuals and the damage and harm to society and listed the whole lot of drugs. Would you be shocked to learn that alcohol is actually more damaging to society than cocaine? Like that's extraordinary. It's something like I have to reference the book a little bit better here. But there's like heroin, crack, crack, cocaine, meth, alcohol, and then there's like cocaine and things and it goes down from there Right and ketamine and things like that society either slightly above or slightly under consequence significance than meth and crack and heroin. Like crazy in terms of the damage to society. The fact that alcohol would even be close to heroin and the impact on society is astounding. And yet it's legal, it's on every corner. We smile when we consume it.
Philip Pape: 24:53
It's just because it's death by a thousand cuts and we don't see it so obviously in front of our eyes until years, decades have passed yeah, many people are opting into this and, like you said, even as a society we've opted in and I'm sure it's a function of scale too right, just the fact that that's the case, it means it's just pervasive everywhere. Okay. So if someone says, all right, I get it. It's not great, there's no benefits, it's a poison death by a thousand cuts. What do I do about this? I know you, you know in your book, which when we were, when we scheduled this, I don't even think it was out yet, and it came out pretty recently. I believe.
James Swanwick: 25:30
Yeah, it did. Yeah Came out in March of 2025.
Philip Pape: 25:33
Yeah, yeah, exactly Just a couple of months ago. So you definitely talk about the neuroscience there, dopamine and the reward centers and all of that. Where's the best place to start so that someone understands, like, how they're altering their brain and how they can then use that information to change their behavior?
James Swanwick: 25:50
Stop saying to yourself you need to stop, I have to quit, don't drink. Because the mind doesn't understand the negative command. It just hears the word alcohol. So a lot of us are walking around saying, geez, I need to quit, I hope I don't drink. Don't drink tonight.
James Swanwick: 26:14
And there's a bundle of nerves in the brain called the RAS, which stands for reticular activating system, and those bundle of nerves are like a laser seeking missile, which is it will focus on whatever it is that you are repeatedly thinking about. So if you are repeatedly thinking about alcohol, even if you're saying don't drink, need to quit, you're thinking about alcohol, alcohol, alcohol. So it's a lot easier for you to drink alcohol. It's harder for you to stop right. On the flip side of that, if you say to yourself what you will do, I'm easily going to drink soda water, ice and a piece of lime tonight. I'm easily going to walk up to the barman and say you know what? Give me a soda water, ice and a splash of cranberry. Now, that's very easy. The mind and the reticular activating system understands that positive command. We're telling ourselves what to do as opposed to telling ourselves what not to do. And when we tell ourselves what to do. It's a lot simpler and a lot easier for us to achieve and accomplish that very thing.
Philip Pape: 27:04
You know, I was thinking about how we're titling this episode and when I look at your content and everything, I think we start from the quit and the stop and the have to not drink alcohol, right, because that's how we reach someone who's thinking that way. I don't know if you agree with that, but like you see it in the marketing side, and then I imagine you have to then do the switch and say let's. It's kind of like I talk to people and they're like I've got to lose weight and I say, well, really we're not trying to lose weight, we're trying to build muscle and we're trying to add in nutritious foods and we're trying to add in protein and we want to.
Philip Pape: 27:33
So I love, that it's directly tied to our brain in that way. So what are your thoughts on that then? The language we use, the marketing, the whole kind of journey that people go through from the initial recognition to the switch.
James Swanwick: 27:48
People are always saying sober, sobriety, recovery, clean. We don't use any of that language. In our organization, at Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, we use the phrase alcohol-free, we're choosing an alcohol-free lifestyle. The name of my coaching organization is called Alcohol-Free Lifestyle and the key word there is lifestyle. It's the style of life, life. It's not needing to be sober and white, knuckling it and trying to be like sober, sobriety, recovery, clean, surrender to a higher power.
James Swanwick: 28:18
We dismiss all of that verbiage. It's been used for 75, 80 years and that's why aa, who really uses that language, has a seven percent success rate and a 93% failure rate if you judge success over long term. So we instead say we get to be alcohol free, we choose to be alcohol free as opposed to I need to be sober, I'm sobriety, I'm three years sober, I'm like three years sober means that you've probably been white knuckling it for three years, whereas we get to be alcohol free, I get to choose this lifestyle. That's the kind of verbiage difference and instead of using phrases like I need to, I have to, which feels very draining and heavy and tough and implies friction, we say I choose to, I get to, I want to, and it might seem you know, minor, a minor thing, but we arise in language, we are language, and so the subtle changes there can have profound generational impact.
Philip Pape: 29:18
Yeah, I totally agree. I think there's parallels with positive psychology. Not sure how familiar you are with that field, but it's only about 20 years old, right, where traditional psychology focused on the negative of the syndromes, of the disorders of our brain, and then positive psychology came along and said well, positive isn't the opposite of negative, positive is its own, it's its own thing, it's independent of negative. The more positivity we add in, you know, to simplify it, it crowds. It can crowd out the negative, I guess, is one way to put it. I see the same thing with nutrition or a fitness lifestyle. Right, we choose to train three days a week because X? Right, Because it supports our goals, and you then find out how you're going to change your schedule around that which then ends up getting rid of your Netflix binging here or your unproductive activity over here, whatever.
Philip Pape: 30:08
So I think that is powerful, james, I'm glad you brought that up because there's a lot to be said for language. So if someone's listening and saying, okay, I'm a casual drinker, right, I'm not speaking necessarily to alcoholics here, but I'm a casual drinker, I still think I want to drink because of the social experience. But now I understand why that's just a false belief. Let's say uh, I still love the taste of beer, or I still love the taste of wine or whatever. Again, rationale. What's the first step? Is it what they tell themselves, or is it coming up with a behavior that replaces it?
James Swanwick: 30:42
Well, first step is is identifying that you can have a better and more fun and a preferable lifestyle being alcohol-free and choosing alcohol-free. Once you believe that, then it becomes very easy to live an alcohol-free lifestyle. But while you are maintaining this, what I would submit mistaken belief that alcohol equals fun and not drinking alcohol equals deprivation and pain it's going to be very, very challenging, which is why these 30-day challenges are mostly ineffective over the long term, because people are going in there trying to get to 30 days, white-knuckling it, depriving themselves, and what do they do on day 30, philip? They celebrate with the drink and they return to the same level of drinking that inspired them to want to stop in the first place. So the first thing is trying to rewire the mindset, and this is what we do in our 90-day stop drinking process, which is called Project 90, in which we outline in the book Clear, which is we try to rewire your mindset, and that is taking it from drinking equals fun and pleasure and connection and romance, and not drinking equals pain and suffering and deprivation, to drinking equals pain and suffering and not drinking equals joy and ease and calm and relationship and romance and fun and celebration. So that's the first step. It's that mindset and that's why people come to us. We try to help them rewire their mindset around that.
James Swanwick: 32:06
And the second thing is kind of what james, who wrote the book Atomic Habits, talks about, which is setting yourself up to win with your environment. So that is removing the cues that gets you to drink in the first place in your home. So, for example, a lot of people have bottles of wine and a liquor cabinet and wine glasses and corkscrews and posters with beer things on it and all these kind of shrines to alcohol. My invitation is remove that, because all of those cues those visible cues are making you think about alcohol and so then you're more likely to go and drink alcohol. In other words, just get it out of the home. Now, this is not about trying to remove yourself from all circumstances in life where alcohol is present, because that's unrealistic. Alcohol will always be there, it will always be flowing, it will always be colleagues, always be friends, families, parties, bars, restaurants. But in your own home you can remove it right, get it out of the home and then replace it with visible cues of health and vitality.
James Swanwick: 33:02
I suggest to our clients you buy yourself a bouquet of flowers, whether you're a man or a woman, you put, you get glass mason jars and you strategically leave them around the house. So when you see the glass mason jars, you think about drinking water. You go and you fill up water with some purified water. You drink the water. The flowers are a visible representation of health and vitality and color and scent. Think of those flowers as your own body. The flowers need sunlight. The flowers need water, needs water replacing. Look at those flowers each day and go, oh, I need sunlight, I need water replacing. Let me go outside, let me go for a walk.
James Swanwick: 33:38
The other thing is there's a lot of studies that suggest that you can reduce cravings for any drug, including alcohol, by just having a daily gratitude practice. So a lot of the things that we do with our clients in our Project 90 Stop Drinking process is we have them for 90 straight days, write down 20 things that they are grateful for. We call it the Daily 20. And just that exercise alone living a life of appreciation instead of expectation, is enough to reduce cravings by an incredible 30% plus. In addition to that, the way in which you share with friends and family and colleagues that you're not drinking is more important than what you actually say.
James Swanwick: 34:17
A lot of people mistakenly think they've got to come up with some logical reason as to why they're not drinking. But there's a lot of studies of human behavior and psychology and influence that shows that to influence anyone, it's only 7% what you say and 93% how you say it. And how you say it is body language, tonality, pacing, facial gestures. So instead of going into a situation where someone's going why aren't you drinking? Instead of oh, I wish I could. No, I'm doing this 30-day challenge, I'm sober and you're implying that not drinking is boring and dull, instead you go oh no, I'm alcohol-free at the moment.
James Swanwick: 34:54
I'm like 90 days. I've been six months. I'm feeling pretty good. I lost a bit of weight, I'm sleeping better, I'm owning it and we can just relax and have a good time. You drink your drinks. I'll drink my alcohol-free drinks. Now, everyone can have a good time. So they would be some of the things that I would get people started with. And most importantly, I think, is just own the fact that you love being alcohol-free. Love it, feel good about it and people will relax and they won't judge you.
Philip Pape: 35:29
This is so good, this is gold. It's funny you were saying that because it works with other things. We homeschool our kids and sometimes you'll get a lot of cynicism from people like, oh, what are you going to do about high school? Oh, how are they going to get this and that? And some people try to defend themselves and we're like yeah, thanks for asking, like we love it because of this. So almost like toxically positive, but not really. I mean people will say I'm a positivity bully. I'm a big fan of reframing, like you just suggested. You also mentioned the cues, which works well for food as well. We talked about your food environment. We just went to Disney World and there's a lot of opportunities to see alcohol at different bars and restaurants and one of my kids said well, isn't that pretty? And I said what are you talking about? She said all the bottles up behind the bar. I'm like we do glamorize the beauty of it through the packaging, through the liquor bottles, the vodka right, you know what I'm saying when even my little 11-year-old thinks it's pretty.
Jerry: 36:25
I just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.
Jerry: 36:33
I personally worked with Philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.
Jerry: 36:37
Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one he's really taking the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth. If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, Philip.
Philip Pape: 37:38
All of this is great. So, anyway, I'm just sharing some personal anecdotes Just to recap for the listener. The first thing you said was embracing this as a lifestyle, as a positive. Being proud, being positive, saying like being alcohol-free, is the thing I want to be. It's aligned with my goals. Of course I'm not ashamed of it. Of course I'm going after it. The second thing you mentioned was removing the cues. We just touched on that a little bit. And then the third thing being the gratitude Does that work for emotional eating as well? And the third thing being the gratitude, does that work for emotional eating as well? Because you said it in a study it reduced cravings.
James Swanwick: 38:10
So yeah, I would think. So yeah, cravings. Yeah, for any vice, but I mean, I'm specifically talking about drugs, including alcohol, but it can be for any vice, yeah.
Philip Pape: 38:17
What are your thoughts on non-alcoholic options? Because part of my brain says well, they're mimicking alcoholic beverages, with all the packaging and marketing to go with it, but they don't have alcohol. So what are your thoughts on those?
James Swanwick: 38:29
I think when someone's trying to rewire their mindset, initially in the first 90 days, three months, and trying to create a long-term mind rewiring, I would invite people to refrain from even drinking alcohol-free alternatives. But once you've got to at least 90 consecutive days alcohol-free and you've successfully rewired your mindset and now you get to have power over alcohol alcohol no longer has power over you that would be the stage where you could start introducing some alcohol-free alternatives. The challenge with drinking alcohol-free alternatives as a direct and immediate substitute for alcohol is that the correlation is still there. And so you know. You go there, say hey, can I get a heineken zero? Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have any. Any heineken zero? Oh, okay, let me have a heineken.
James Swanwick: 39:14
And so that association and that correlation is still there again after 90 days, assuming that you have gone through our process, you've rewired your mindset, you now realize that you get to be alcohol-free and that a special occasion is every day that you're alcohol-free. Then you can. I'm okay with that, I'm comfortable with that. But again, I know I'm repeating myself. People can convince themselves oh yeah, I'm just going to drink 0% beers. Well, what happens if there's no 0% beers? What are you going to do.
Philip Pape: 39:44
Chances are you're probably going to order a beer and then the slippery slope is very slippery I understand yep, because you're still seeking out something about that experience or taste or flavor that was associated with the alcoholic version of it?
Philip Pape: 39:55
yeah, that makes sense, I guess what you know. You work with a lot of people, so what would you say is the biggest in that first phase, that 90-day phase, the biggest thing that people do still struggle with? Maybe it's with the people around them. That's. One thing that comes to mind is just how you deal with your friends and your family, but what do you see?
James Swanwick: 40:14
What is the biggest struggle that people have when they're trying to quit? Yes, yeah, it's cultural conditioning. It's not a physical withdrawal. I mean, I know that that's a real thing for a small percentage of the population, like a chemical dependency, but for most people, who might consider themselves a gray area drinker, where they're not deemed bad enough to be an alcoholic uh, but it's bad enough that it's causing consequences, there's no real physical withdrawal. I mean, look again, I'm I'm not a doctor, but it's very much a psychological and habitual challenge that someone has. It's just they're so used to drinking this poison for years and decades and because they're unaware or uneducated or haven't tried an alternative lifestyle, it just seems so challenging and so tough.
James Swanwick: 41:03
And again, smiling assassins are everywhere friends, colleagues, staff, everyone. They're all smiling're all smiling. Hey, have a drink. That's never going to stop. It's going to continue for years and decades and even though there is a cultural change happening right now and people are increasingly turning their back on alcohol, it's not going to stop. People still smoke cigarettes today, even though we've known for three decades. That is not good for us, so it's never going to change.
James Swanwick: 41:25
So you know, you, we really got to get comfortable being alcohol free not comfortable, but like euphoric, that we're alcohol free and once we are, other people see that and more people get on board. Then our social circle becomes smiling not assassins, but like smiling givers, like that. They're giving joy, they're giving pleasure, they're giving experiences. And we're seeing that so much now, like there's a tidal wave of change happening across the world. Alcohol-free drinks have exploded. In australia, my native country, they have these like sunrise raves now, where there's no alcohol present. People show up an hour before the sun gets up and they have a dj and they start dancing, going crazy, and then they celebrate the sun rising or drug and alcohol free, and then they're going for a swim and a run and they're healthy and they're connecting on a health level and a human level, not on a drug-fueled level. So you know, once people can get over that kind of social kind of obstacle that they're fearing and break through that, wow, then life gets to be just glorious.
Philip Pape: 42:33
Do you find that people who then go through that? Is there a correlation with that and a health and fitness lifestyle, or a cause and effect, even?
James Swanwick: 42:42
Yeah, I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010 and I spend time with a lot of very healthy people and most of them either don't drink at all or drink sparingly. And, most importantly, alcohol isn't a necessity for social lubricant, you know, or for connection or fun. For example, a staff member of mine who works with me at Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, it's his 41st birthday on Monday and we're going out to a Japanese restaurant on Saturday night. I asked him who's coming. He told me and I thought about it. I went okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
James Swanwick: 43:18
I think there's maybe two out of 12 people who I know will drink and when they drink they won't be drinking excessively. They'll have like a drink or two. But the other 10, 10 out of 12 people don't drink alcohol-free. And I look at them and I go. They're measured, they've got good conscious communication at least they appear to. I mean, who knows what goes on behind closed doors, but they seem like good people.
James Swanwick: 43:40
They're good morals, they're not prone to irritability, they're not prone to reacting. They respond versus react. They look good, they're in the gym. I see them working out, they go for walks, they get sunlight. The conversations that I have with them is about nutrition and weight loss and weights and mindset and conscious communication and trying to be the best father or mother and trying to be the best leader and trying to be a great colleague, like that's the kind of conversations that you have, and I always, you know, I often say that how you look on the outside is often a reflection of how you feel about yourself on the inside. And so just a warning you do get better looking when you stop drinking alcohol.
Philip Pape: 44:23
That's the selling point, man. That's so good. I mean. This is why I love talking to you guys on, you guys like you on the show, because it is infectious to be around folks like that who share those goals. It made me think, though, because you mentioned you mentioned cigarettes and I I was thinking about, like, the deal makers and people in sales and a lot of the high achievers you probably deal with, who do dinners, lots of dinners, or they go on the golf course or whatever. Is that culture any more challenging, because of just how competitive it is and the deal making and kind of all of that, or is this just a madman fantasy that I have?
James Swanwick: 44:56
I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010. I would consider myself a pretty successful businessman. I've done deals, hired people, done joint venture deals, generated millions of dollars in sales across two different businesses. I guess society might say, oh geez, that would be tough for you to do business because you can't entertain clients or you can't do deals, you can't soften people up with a few drinks. I've been doing it 15 years. Things have worked out okay for me.
James Swanwick: 45:28
And then this whole idea about the golf buddies and stuff and going to the clubhouse of the 19th hole I get it Like the culture's drinking. Let's go back to the clubhouse, have a couple of beers. Ho, ho, ho, how about that? Like eagle, you shot. Oh geez, that double bogey was a nasty one. Great, have one. Great, have all that friendly banter, but do it while drinking a soda water, ice and a piece of lime doesn't make you any less manly. In fact, it makes you more manly. Because, I'll tell you, drinking alcohol destroys your testosterone levels, especially beer. Beer's got so much estrogen producing crap in it. Men are like oh, beer, the irony, right? The irony is that beer is associated with masculinity and testosterone and yet it's a product that destroys your masculinity and testosterone.
Philip Pape: 46:12
And it gives you a big gut to boot over time it gives you a big gut.
James Swanwick: 46:16
yeah, a lot of calories. In fact, just on that, can you have a guess on which two alcoholic drinks generally have the most toxins in it in them? Drinks generally have the most toxins in it.
Philip Pape: 46:28
In them the most toxins, Mm-hmm, Is it? It's not mixed, some sort of mixed drink? It's?
James Swanwick: 46:33
red wine and beer.
Philip Pape: 46:34
Okay.
James Swanwick: 46:35
Most toxins. The least toxins is tequila.
Philip Pape: 46:40
It's also gluten-free. That used to be its selling point, yeah.
James Swanwick: 46:45
If you're going to drink tequila and if you're, you know if you're gonna drink that crazy dealer. And if you're, you know if you're gonna drink, drink tequila, that's the least bad for you, right? But worst in terms of toxins. If you measure toxins, red wine and beer yeah, no, because you mentioned the cigarettes.
Philip Pape: 46:59
And I know guys who everything they do is health focused, except they'll pull out a cigar, you know, every now and then to celebrate. Right, it's just celebrate, it's just the thing. It's just like with alcohol and the culture, all right, well, is there anything? I know there's a lot we could have covered. I wanted to touch on the main points of why we do this. You gave us a great framework for that initial transformation away, not away from alcohol, but embracing an alcohol-free lifestyle, embracing what it is to be a healthy person. Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish? You want to get out there for the listener.
James Swanwick: 47:31
No, I don't think so, other than just a call to arms, so to speak, which is, you know, like culture is going to want to keep you stuck in mediocrity. And in my view and this is my life's work the mediocrity is created through the drift, and the drift is created through consistent, socially acceptable drinking Socially acceptable drinking, but drinking nonetheless and I would just invite you to re-explore your relationship with alcohol. I write about this in my book, which is called Clear. It's available online wherever any books are sold. There's an audible version as well, where you can put me on two speed if you like and get through the book in four hours instead of eight hours at normal speed.
James Swanwick: 48:15
And, you know, start to embrace this new identity. Look, I get that. Not drinking is a threat to your current reality and your current identity, and the fear is that who will I be if I'm not a drinker? Who will I be? I won't be the fun guy, I won't be the romantic guy or the girl, I won't be the cool host anymore. This is such an identity threat and I get that.
James Swanwick: 48:37
But really, if you explore, what's it giving you, if it's giving you mediocrity, and you're stuck in the drift of life and you're meandering and you're floating and you don't like it and you've got less time on this planet than you've already lived. It's time for a change, and change can feel scary I get that. So I really acknowledge those who take the leap and take the plunge. And if you'd like more details, you can go to alcoholfreelifestylecom slash clear and that'll give you details about the book. Or just go to alcoholfreelifestylecom and there's some details there about our 90 day and year long stop drinking processes. And I'm on Instagram at at James Swanwick lots of free tips and tricks. And we've got a podcast as well Alcohol-Free Lifestyle. You can dig into that a lot deeper as well.
Philip Pape: 49:19
All right, so I'm definitely going to include all of those in. By the way, if you're Amazon Unlimited which I am you can get the book for free. Um, hopefully you get a cut of that, even those. I don't know how that works, but, uh, the the book clear your Instagram and also the podcast. We'll include all those in the show notes. And if you are looking to take the leap and get out of the mediocrity and the drifting through life, uh, this is the way to do it. Thank you so much, james, for coming on the show.
James Swanwick: 49:43
Philip, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
