Is 800 Calories a Day Unsafe? | Ep 368

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Why do some people thrive on far fewer calories than others (who might be miserable eating at that level)?

When we talk about whether 800 calories a day is "unsafe," we're asking the wrong question. After all, your size, training, activity level, and energy needs are unique to you and can vary widely among the population.

Learn why there's no universal unsafe calorie number, how to determine your own metabolic limits using biofeedback, and the critical trade-offs between aggressive deficits and sustainability. 

Main Takeaways:

• There's no universal "unsafe" calorie number

• Metabolic adaptation is real but reversible, not permanent "damage"

• Use biofeedback (energy, sleep, strength, mood) as your personalized guide rather than arbitrary rules

• The trade-offs between speed, sustainability, and metabolic preservation require intentionality

Episode Resources:

• Wits & Weights Facebook Community - Connect with others who understand nutrition isn't about universal rules

Timestamps:

0:50 - The obsession with 800, 1200, and 1500 calories
5:18 - The reality of individual energy needs
8:50 - Very low-calorie diets (VLCDs) in clinical settings
10:30 - The Optavia problem
16:14 - Metabolic adaptation vs "metabolic damage"
19:28 - Speed vs. sustainability vs. metabolism
20:44 - Using biofeedback as your personalized compass
24:23 - The non-negotiables
25:29 - Context vs. absolutes

Is Eating 800 Calories a Day Unsafe?

“Is 800 calories a day unsafe?” You have probably seen this question on Instagram or heard it from friends, and the truth is there is no universal answer. Fitness culture loves absolute rules like “never eat below 1200 calories” for women or “never below 1500” for men. These numbers are arbitrary and ignore the huge differences in body size, activity level, and energy needs.

A 105-pound woman might only burn 1500 calories in a day, while a 300-pound man can burn over 3000. The same 800-calorie intake has completely different effects depending on who we are talking about. That is why context matters more than any magic number.

The Real Definition of a “Very Low-Calorie Diet”

In clinical nutrition research, a very low-calorie diet (VLCD) is defined as 800 calories per day or less. These protocols are not everyday lifestyle diets. They are temporary, physician-supervised interventions designed for severe obesity or type 2 diabetes.

Studies show that when they are done with medical oversight, these diets can:

• Produce rapid weight loss (3–5 pounds per week)

• Improve blood sugar, blood pressure, and cholesterol

• Reverse pre-diabetes or type 2 diabetes in some patients

But they also include safeguards that commercial programs skip:

• High protein intake to preserve lean mass

• Supplementation for vitamins and minerals

• Regular medical monitoring

• A defined timeline (usually no more than 12–16 weeks)

Where Diet Programs Go Wrong

Programs like Optavia often take the concept of very low-calorie diets and turn them into a one-size-fits-all solution. Everyone gets the same 800–1000 calories, usually from processed meal replacements. Exercise is discouraged, protein is too low, and there is no plan for what comes after.

This combination is why so many people regain the weight. They lose muscle along with fat, their metabolism adapts, and they never learn sustainable nutrition habits.

How to Think About Safety

Instead of asking “Is 800 calories unsafe?” ask these three questions:

1. What is my current energy expenditure?
   A petite, sedentary woman might maintain on 1500 calories. For her, 1000–1200 could be a moderate deficit. For a larger, active man, 800 would be a starvation-level intake.

2. How long am I doing this?
   Aggressive deficits can be safe if they are short. A rapid fat loss phase of 2–3 weeks with high protein and resistance training is not the same as eating 800 calories indefinitely.

3. What does my biofeedback say?
   Numbers only tell part of the story. Energy levels, sleep, training performance, mood, recovery, and hunger are all signs of whether your body is handling the deficit.

Metabolic Adaptation vs. Metabolic Damage

Crash diets often spark fear of “metabolic damage.” In reality, what happens is metabolic adaptation—a temporary slowdown in energy expenditure beyond what you would expect from losing weight alone.

The more aggressive and longer the deficit, the stronger the adaptation. But it is reversible, especially if you preserve muscle through protein and strength training. Permanent “damage” is not what is happening, despite what marketers want you to believe.

Trade-Offs You Need to Understand

Every fat loss phase involves balancing three competing priorities:

• Speed of results: Larger deficits mean faster fat loss.

• Sustainability: Smaller deficits are easier to stick to long term.

• Preserving metabolism and muscle: Requires resistance training, enough protein, and not dieting too aggressively for too long.

You cannot maximize all three. Instead, you choose your trade-offs based on your goals, life circumstances, and biofeedback.

Practical Guidelines

• Do not blindly follow calorie rules you see online. Your maintenance calories are unique to you.

• Short aggressive diets can be safe if you are prepared, fueled with protein, and consistent with strength training.

• Long-term diets should be moderate to preserve adherence, energy, and muscle.

• Always prioritize protein and resistance training no matter how aggressive your deficit.

• Use biofeedback as your compass. If your strength drops, recovery tanks, or you feel miserable, you are pushing too far.

Final Thoughts

800 calories is not inherently unsafe. It can be appropriate for certain individuals in tightly controlled contexts, or completely unsustainable and counterproductive for others. What matters most is the context, duration, structure, and your body’s feedback.

Instead of chasing one-size-fits-all numbers, build the skills to understand your own energy needs, create a plan that matches your goals, and adjust based on biofeedback. That is how you diet safely and sustainably.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Is 800 calories a day unsafe? The answer might surprise you because it depends entirely on who we're talking about. A 105-pound woman has vastly different energy needs than a 300-pound man, yet programs like Optivia push 800-calorie diets on everyone. Today, we are going to cut through the confusion around very low-calorie diets. You'll learn why there's no universal unsafe calorie number, how to determine your own metabolic limits using biofeedback and data, and the critical trade-offs between aggressive deficits and sustainability.

Philip Pape: 0:50

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach Philip Pape, and today we're going to tackle one of those highly debated questions in fitness Is 800 calories a day unsafe? And I picked 800 on purpose, because sometimes people say 1200 or 1500, and we're going to get into these nuances. But I picked a really low number because the question comes up all the time. Given our cultural obsession with magic numbers, with universal thresholds and set points, we act like 800 or 1200 calories is the universal floor for women and 1500 for men and that anything below that for everybody is automatically dangerous. But the reality is, as always, more nuanced than any arbitrary threshold and it depends on context, constraints and individuality, and I love the fitness industry and I say that sarcastically. You know Instagram. They love to exploit confusion, confusion across the board.

Philip Pape: 1:52

Companies, weight loss programs they market things that are ridiculously extreme, to be honest, and they do so via fear. They spread fear about things like metabolic damage. We still hear that term. Your metabolism is broken or damaged, not a thing. And then you are left wondering if that lower calorie target is going to help you reach your goals faster or it's going to sabotage your metabolism. Why can this program do this? But then this influencer over here says that's way too low, and I made this episode because one of our Physique University members actually asked the question said like I've heard that X number of calories is too low. Is that true? And I wanted to address this because it's a very relevant topic. There is a rise in rapid weight loss and, yes, rapid fat loss too, but sometimes they get interchanged incorrectly.

Philip Pape: 2:42

We know about Optivia, which has been around a long time, and I have clients that constantly come to me saying, yeah, I tried Optivia in the past. It was miserable. I was down 800 calories and you weren't supposed to exercise and it was just arbitrary, regardless of your size, your activity level, your metabolic needs, not even the very basic quote, unquote personalization. And then we're also seeing more research on physician supervised very low calorie diets for obesity. And then we're also seeing more research on physician-supervised very low-calorie diets for obesity. And we're seeing, with weight loss medications, very low-calorie diets, intentional or not. We're seeing research on diabetes reversal, pre-diabetes. And that adds all this complexity to the discussion where you're like, well, what's the thing that I'm supposed to go with? And, by the way, it's actually quite simple. What's hard is implementing it for you. We're going to get into that.

Philip Pape: 3:28

But before we get into the specifics, I do want to share something that Julia from Physique University recently told me. She said quote I joined WWPU and finished the onboarding today. I'm glad I'm here. Before I thought it's just more information and better organized as is possible to soak up in the podcast, but I started to feel that the community and support are really the resources which will finally move the needle for me. Now this, I'll say, perfectly captures things that obviously I'm not marketing as well myself, and that is that it's not just about the information, it's how we implement it right. Individualized approaches matter so, so much.

Philip Pape: 4:09

And Julia realized shortly after joining. Because, again, apparently the way I market it isn't good enough to show you this that generic information, even if it's helpful, even if it's evidence-based, like we talk about on the show, is not enough. She needed personalized guidance to find what worked for her unique situation. So if you're ready to do that, let's say you've been listening to the podcast for a while and you want to stop guessing about all these things, including calorie needs. But that's just scratching the surface. You really are looking for a system designed specifically for your body, for your goals, for your constraints, for your preferences, right? These are all important things. Physique U is where we make that happen, where we help you determine your metabolic needs, your hormonal situation, your training situation, and create a sustainable plan that preserves muscle while achieving your physique goals. You can learn more about that at the special link in the show notes, because only that link is going to give you a free nutrition plan that I will build for you, because you're a podcast listener and I love to give stuff away. So go to the special link in the show notes to join Physique U, get the free plan and we'll see you in there.

Philip Pape: 5:18

All right, let's talk about why this question about calorie levels and whether 800 calories or 1200 or whatever is unsafe, even matters, right, it comes down to fitness culture. We're obsessed with magic solutions, formulas, the one best fit answer, right? The one thing you know. You've probably heard again that women should never go below 1200 calories or 1,500 calories, and these often get thrown around as if they're universal laws of physics, but they're completely arbitrary. Here's the reality. Okay, let's get into numbers.

Philip Pape: 5:52

A sedentary 105 pound woman Okay and I've worked with some clients that are in that range might only burn 1,200 calories per day at rest. That is her total metabolism, not even RMR or BMR. We're talking about her total daily energy expenditure. You add in, you know, even more neat walking movement on top of that. Maybe she pushes it up to 1500. She had some muscle mass, right, she does all the healthy lifestyle things and she's still burning 1500 calories. So for her, at 15 or 1600 calories, even eating 1200 calories is just a very moderate deficit, like 25% deficit. Right, it's small, it's not going to even feel like starvation. I mean, I've worked with these clients before and I've had them on the show before, in fact, where they'll say you know what? This is what my body needs it feels okay. And so if you're 105 pounds and you burn, you know, between 12 and 1600 calories, then eating a thousand calories may be totally reasonable for your deficit.

Philip Pape: 6:51

Now eating 800, even at that level tends to be pushing it for most people. It doesn't mean it's unsafe. It depends on the deficit and how long you go, and the reason I wanted to start with that question for this episode is to suggest that there really is no good answer to that. I would say unsafe is relative to how aggressive your deficit is, how long it is and how it is affecting you right Now. Compare that to. On the other extreme, we have people that are 300 pound plus, who might be burning 3,000 calories at rest. A male, for example, who burns 3000 calories is not uncommon at all. Somebody who lifts weights in fact doesn't have to be 300 pounds, it could be 225, 250 burning that much. So for him, 800 calories, like actually an actual intake of 800, would represent a massive, ridiculous, extreme. Yes, unsafe deficit. It would be like 70, 75%, okay, and that would be extremely difficult to sustain outside of clinical supervision. And having said that, I recently onboarded a client who weighs about 250 and he had done Optivia at 800 calories and told me how miserable that was. And it's not like he died, right Like.

Philip Pape: 8:01

When we say unsafe, we also have to qualify and define what we mean by the word unsafe. To me, unsafe is more about the totality of the context, right Like if we're driving. If you said, is driving 65 miles an hour unsafe? Well, it depends on the road conditions, the weather, your car, the driving experience. 65 miles an hour in a school zone is extremely unsafe, but on the Autobahn you're probably going to get honked at for going too slow, right? So same thing applies to calories. In that the context really matters. In fact, 800 calories is not far from where a lot of people might hit when doing a rapid fat loss phase for two weeks with protein modified fast. Right, and it wouldn't be unsafe in that context. It'd be highly controlled, highly structured, exactly what they're intending to do. That's why I think it's important not to blanket statement anything.

Philip Pape: 8:50

So when we talk about very low calorie diets and defining our terms, there's actually a term VLCD very, very low calories per day, I think. Or very low calorie diets, right, vlcds. And they are actually defined as 800 calories a day or less. But these are not like lifestyle diets. These aren't rapid fat loss phases. They are clinical interventions, typically under medical supervision, for people who have severe obesity or diabetes, and there's actually a lot of robust research on properly supervised, very low carb diets or low calorie diets, not carb Icalorie diets. When you look at those studies, we see rapid weight loss of about three to five pounds a week and a lot of the blood markers improve. Blood sugar, blood pressure, lipid profiles make sense because we know that there's a high correlation with reducing excess body fat.

Philip Pape: 9:43

Notice that what I said in this these are properly supervised, clinical, very low carb, very low calorie diets, have somebody monitoring. They have high quality protein which is gonna preserve your lean mass. They have vitamin and mineral supplementation, regular checkups with the medical provider, and they're temporary no more than, say, 12 to 16 weeks, which to me is actually quite a long time for 800 calories. If you weren't in a medical situation, at most you might do it for two or three weeks and then they transition back to higher calories. So either way, you're recovering afterward, which again doesn't mean it's unsafe. No, for these people it's actually what they need to survive and live a thriving life again and have healthy blood markers so they don't die. That's the opposite of unsafe. Now life again and have healthy blood markers, so they don't die. That's the opposite of unsafe. Now do they have to do it that way? I don't know. That's a whole different conversation.

Philip Pape: 10:30

I think the problem comes when the commercial, highly marketed weight loss programs take a number like that and then they give you the food Optivia, anyone. They give you processed bars and shakes, they send it to your door, they tell you not to exercise and then they send you away for months at a time and like good luck. Well, we know how that ends. That ends with crash and burn and even if you lose the weight, you're going to gain it all back because you don't know how to sustain that right. And I'm sorry to pick on Optivea specifically, but it comes up time and time and time again Cl and time and time again, clients and students every day who I talk to have tried this in the past and I wish I had met them before they tried it. But hey, it's a good learning experience, if nothing else. Right, it puts everyone on a really low, sub-thousand calorie diet using pre-packaged foods. That's gross, I mean, I think that's gross. I don't want to live that way.

Philip Pape: 11:22

You know what I did slim fast a long time ago when I was like 20 for maybe two months, hated it. It was miserable. Every time I knew I was going to have lunch I'm like, what am I doing? I think I actually eventually snuck Chinese food with my slim fast, thinking that well, I'm still having the slim fast. Like, seriously, I think that's what I did because I was so craving more food and obviously, okay, look, there's a lot of problems with this approach. It's not like I'm telling you something that is surprise, but the big one is the one size fits all calorie target, regardless of body size, activity level, metabolic rate. And it ties to this topic because people will say the 1200, the 1500 calories, the less than 2000 calories, whatever is, quote, unquote this or that for everybody. You just can't make statements like that. Again, 120 pounds versus 200 pounds, sedentary person versus active person, somebody lifting weights with lots of muscles, somebody who's who's sedentary, right, big differences. So that's the big one.

Philip Pape: 12:19

The second one is that for the programs that push these things, sometimes the macros are all screwed up or the protein is low and I know there's a whole movement toward you know protein is dangerous or like stop protein maxing or proteins crowding out all this other stuff. Folks, we do not get enough protein on average in this country or in the world in general. Most people are far deficient just getting enough protein. We're not talking about 300 grams a day of protein. We're talking 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of your body weight. So if you're 150 pounds, that's no more than 150 grams of protein. It's not a massive amount of protein. And if you do it as a percentage of your diet, it's also not massive. It's like 15, 20%, right, it's not that high. So if you're on an aggressive deficit, you have to have high protein by default. So as soon as you lose the connection between those two, you're going to have problems.

Philip Pape: 13:08

And then the other thing here is that something like Optivia discourages exercise. I don't understand that and I'm not going to waste my time reading the Optivia and the Manjaro and the Terzepatide or Wegovi and all that, where people are giving these things or maybe they get them themselves without any guidance on lifestyle, and they're not lifting weights and they lose muscle as a result, right, not because of the drugs, but because of the aggressive deficits, the low protein and all of that, and it leads to worse body composition outcomes, which is not what we're trying to do right Now. The programs that give you foods that are prepackaged I mean just that's a whole separate issue as well. You know, being dependent on these, it's really quite the racket, isn't it Like? Just, instead of learning how to structure your own nutrition, just make your own food. Or even if you want to buy prepared food from like a service and choose the foods that meet your goals, that's fine. It's this idea of them sending it to you and locking you into that. So now compare all that to what we talked about on width to weight, which is an evidence-based approach where we calculate your energy needs, we make sure you have enough protein, we emphasize resistance training consistently and, most of all, we use flexibility with your food, with really, really the whole process is got a lot of adaptability and flexibility built in, because it should conform to your constraints and your life, your ability to adhere and maintain beyond just a short-term dieting phase and actually be able to eat for life. And so this is why context matters so much in nutrition and why I love to help people get to that next step of.

Philip Pape: 14:52

Okay, I've listened to the podcast, or I listened to a bunch of physique. You know fitness podcasts and I know the science and I know the general idea here. But how do I do that for myself, right? So that's why I created Physique University. We don't use arbitrary numbers. We actually help you determine your actual needs based on your body size, activity level, biofeedback. We then work backward to create the plan that has the right aggressiveness for you.

Philip Pape: 15:18

So, again, it's not just here are my calories and macros. It's what is your goal? Is your goal moderate fat loss or body recomposition? Is it a bit more aggressive? Are you actually trying to build muscle? And then, what is the right lever? And then, beyond that, should you be eating the same calories every day or should you cycle? Should you have more on the weekends, right? All that's what I'm talking about when it comes to making it fit your life, so that the numbers are the same, but the way that it's structured might vary drastically, right? So it's not just. Here's a template. So, anyway, if you're looking for something like that, check out Physique U, use the special link in the show notes. I'm going to keep mentioning this because that link is going to give you a special bonus. You're going to get a free nutrition plan from me and that's going to unlock an accelerator that'll help you get even faster to your goal. Not quick fix, fast, but efficiently fast to your goal to lose fat, to build muscle, for your situation.

Philip Pape: 16:14

So let's address the elephant in the room metabolic adaptation. Right, you've heard me talk about this, or, if you're new to the show, I want to contrast metabolic adaptation with terms like metabolic damage or starvation mode that are used by people to claim that either aggressive deficits are harmful and permanently so, or that you are permanently harmed because of something you did in the past, and I'm sorry, but we're going to have to fix that, and here's my special protocol to do it. The truth is more nuanced and also more empowering, I would say, in that metabolic adaptation look at the word adapt. Adapt is something that is flexible, right, it can adapt one way and then it could adapt back. It's a real thing. It's a real phenomenon where, when you eat less, your metabolic rate decreases beyond what you'd expect, just from losing weight. So if you're losing weight, if you're in a deficit, the fact that you weigh less is going to burn fewer calories, yes, but beyond that, your metabolism goes down due to what's called metabolic adaptation. It's kind of a protective mechanism. It's an efficiency mechanism.

Philip Pape: 17:23

We've talked about the biggest loser study and I know there's a big Netflix documentary about it I haven't seen it yet but they had massive metabolic adaptation. It persisted years later and it's recoverable, but it's recoverable only on a similar timeline as it was adapted in general right. And in that study they had extreme deficits combined with excessive cardio, combined with inadequate protein. They had muscle loss and they had metabolic adaptation. So part of their metabolic decline became permanent, not because of adaptation, but because of things like muscle loss that they're going to have to build back.

Philip Pape: 17:58

When we talk about just run of the mill metabolic adaptation, this is driven by a few different things. Now, if you're losing lean mass, to me that is not a source of metabolic adaptation. That is a source of burning fewer calories due to having less muscle. That's different. But the hormonal changes that come in from metabolic adaptation, like a decrease in thyroid and reproductive hormones, those are real and they cause you to burn fewer calories and that's normal.

Philip Pape: 18:27

And the more aggressive you go, the more that's gonna happen, to the point where you're also getting the lean mass loss. You're getting the hunger that gets ramped up. You're getting the fancy terms like hyperphagia, which is just massive hunger, but if you're in the right window, you're gonna have some metabolic adaptation. But you're going to have some metabolic adaptation, but you're also going to preserve your muscle by eating protein, by training, and the adaptation is much less severe and more, I'll say, reversible in a short period. That's the way I'm going to put it. It's always reversible. It depends on how aggressively you did the diet.

Philip Pape: 18:58

And again, this connects to this topic of like 800 calories or whatever. So I guess the silver lining of that is that an aggressive deficit, in some ways it's reversible. And because the time is short, the reversibility is also short. But if you go aggressive for a long time, then that's where the problem comes in. You're not gonna permanently damage your metabolism, which is the thing that could sensationalize. Okay, I hope all that made sense. So I like to think like an engineer.

Philip Pape: 19:28

Right, every diet involves trade-offs between three main factors the speed of your results, the sustainability of the process and, I'll say, preserving your metabolism, that's. I'm not talking about the cost schedule, quality triangle, the iron triangle, fat loss that's a different thing that I talked about in another episode. This is more of a the three things that are going to get impacted the most when you do a diet and how you can optimize. So you can optimize for speed and you can go very aggressive with a deficit, but you're going to sacrifice sustainability and that's where you have to keep the time short. Right, you're going to increase the risk of muscle loss. If you don't, you're going to increase the risk of severe metabolic adaptation. So that's one thing. You could also optimize for how sustainable it is, how much you can adhere to it, by making it more conservative, but of course, your progress is going to be slow. And then you can optimize for preserving your metabolism by going at a reasonable level of aggressiveness, but also having diet breaks and refeeds, and that's going to extend your timeline. Extend your timeline. You're not actually on the net increasing your metabolism, you're just taking breaks along the way and it's going to take longer, but it's going to feel more sustainable while still being somewhat aggressive, if that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 20:44

So the key here is to understand these trade-offs and then to choose intentionally, consciously, not accidentally, falling into usually what's an extreme approach because someone said you know these are the amount of calories you should or shouldn't go above or below. So let's talk about biofeedback for a second, because that's another thing I had in my notes here. That is extremely helpful as a guide. All right, we fixate a lot on numbers and, when it comes down to it, numbers like your expenditure, like how many calories you have to hit, like your macros, are just starting to scratch the surface, right? What's really below all of that is what's in your body. It's your biofeedback, it's the constant information that you get about whether your approach is actually working or you're pushing too hard.

Philip Pape: 21:33

Now, it's hard for many people to read those signals when they first do this, because they're so screwed up, they're so misaligned and miscalibrated from years of doing this the wrong way, and that's okay. When you start to do things intentionally, you also start to regulate your biofeedback signals. Your energy levels, your sleep quality, your strength in the gym, your recovery, your hunger, your mood all of that starts to get more regulated and then therefore more trustworthy. So it's kind of a chicken and egg, right. So that's why it helps to not be pushing anything too hard initially, to not be in a diet and to let things regulate while you're improving your sustainability part of the equation and improving your food quality and things like that, and then you can challenge yourself. And then, once you challenge yourself with something like a diet, the goal is not to feel miserable. Right, we don't want to be miserable, and so the warning signals will be there in addition to the numbers.

Philip Pape: 22:29

The numbers are one thing, but if I say, go and eat 800 calories and you do it and you actually feel great during the process, who am I to tell you that that's unsafe or too low? But if I tell you to eat 1500 calories for a diet and you're you know you normally burn 3000 calories chances are you're going to get fatigued from that pretty quickly. You're going to have trouble sleeping, you're going to have potentially a loss in your strength and muscle. You might you might be in a bad mood, you might get hangry or actually lose hunger, you might lose hair. I mean I don't know. There's going to be a lot that happens in women. There's a lot of hormonal impacts, right with not only thyroid but, you know, menstrual cycle. I mean everything.

Philip Pape: 23:06

So when you get that kind of biofeedback, that indicates you're pushing beyond what your body can handle sustainably, and that's where it gets into the word potentially unsafe. You know again, what does safe mean? That's questionable. Now, the beauty of biofeedback is it is completely personalized to you, by definition. Right, the more petite woman eating 1200 calories, she might have excellent biofeedback, being in this moderate deficit, and the weight just comes off, no problem done with, the diet moves out. But then you got that bigger man, let's say the 200 pound man. He's eating 1800 calories. My show warning size For me. My biofeedback can fluctuate, and so that's another, more advanced way to handle those signals, in that you can push sometimes and pull back other times. So, regardless of your calorie target, two factors are critical that we've mentioned already no-transcript, very low calories.

Philip Pape: 24:23

Maintaining those priorities of training and protein is going to dramatically improve your results and reduce the negative consequences that come from aggressive dieting. All right. So I had some other things. I had some other things to talk about it, but I think we're going long winded here.

Philip Pape: 24:39

My, my message to you if you're considering a very aggressive approach, obviously if you have underlying health conditions, if you're taking medication, something like that, working with a health provider, right, that's outside my scope, that's medical. If you're considering it for something like rapid fat loss and I get people come to me all the time. Hey, I want to follow your rapid fat loss protocol and I'll say, okay, are you training? Are you tracking? Are you eating enough protein? Do you have a good body image? Do you have a good relationship with food? If any of these answers are no, sorry, don't do rapid fat loss, because that's just recipe for disaster, you know, is your stress high? Is your right sleep bad? All that stuff has to be dialed in right. So if you're considering a very aggressive approach, it is perfectly safe, if it's right for you, if it's controlled and structured and if your biofeedback is solid for the duration of that deficit.

Philip Pape: 25:29

So I want to leave you with what I consider the most important insight from today, and that is that the fitness industry, they've conditioned us to think in absolutes, and maybe conditions not the right word, I mean, I think it is, but it could just be that they have, you know, blasted the message that there are dichotomies, that there are false dichotomies. I should say, you know, safe versus unsafe, you see it all the time Fear mongering all the time, good versus bad, right versus wrong. But your body doesn't operate that way. Right, it has context, it has constraints. So it's not whether X number of calories is inherently safe or unsafe. It's whether a specific target makes sense for your unique combination of all the things your body size, your activity, your goals, your life circumstances.

Philip Pape: 26:13

So, instead of asking what should everyone do which is, by the way, a very common question to podcasters is what? What is the answer to this? What should I do here, without the context? It's what makes sense for me right now. Okay, what makes sense for me right now? In fact, I was just thinking in our, our Facebook group, which you can join for free anytime, which, in which Facebook group, we actually have an Ask Philip thread that I do once a month, and the whole point of that thread is for you to ask the question what makes sense for me right now, right.

Philip Pape: 26:42

And then you stop being a victim of arbitrary rules Yep, I said it trigger word victim and you start being the intelligent I was going to say designer, but isn't that referred to a creationism and stuff, the engineer of your own approach, right? And this is the mind-blowing shift in your brain that I think separates people who actually get this thing, that make it last, that sustain those results that they're walking around one year, five years, 10 years from now, having lost the fat, having improved their body composition and they're living an enjoyable life from those who bounce and yo-yo between the extreme approaches, hoping that the next solution is going to work for them. So the next time you hear someone online say that a specific calorie number is universally safe or unsafe, number one, unfollow them. And then number two, you'll know that you're missing the bigger picture, or that they're missing the bigger picture, I should say, because of everything we talked about today. Right, and you know better. You know better. So, instead of searching for the magic number, focus on developing skills, skills the skills to understand your energy needs, your biofeedback structure, your nutrition for your goals. Make informed trade-offs based on what matters most to you right now, which only you know, only you know, and if you need to share it with someone else to get some accountability and some help, that's what we're here for. That is how you make it sustainable. That is how you achieve your goals.

Philip Pape: 28:04

And look, if you want to connect with others who understand this. You don't want to join Physique University yet. You're not ready to take the plunge there and accelerate your results to that level. You can still join our free Facebook community. I that level, you can still join our free Facebook community. I already mentioned it once. You can search for it on Facebook or click the link in the show notes, and that is where we share experiences, we ask questions, we support each other without judgment, without oversimplified advice that you're going to find everywhere else. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your physique is built through evidence, not arbitrary rules. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. Talk to you next time.

Can Your Phone Replace a $100K DEXA for Body Fat and Physique Tracking? (Jason Moore) | Ep 367

Want to build muscle, lose fat, and train smarter? ⁠⁠⁠Join the new Physique University for just $27/month⁠⁠⁠ and get your custom nutrition plan FREE (limited time).

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Can your smartphone really rival a $100,000 DEXA scan? What if the same device you use to scroll Instagram could also reveal your body fat percentage, fat distribution, and even your HRV?

I sit down with Jason Moore, founder and CEO of Spren, a company turning your phone into a precision biometric tool. We talk about how Spren compares to gold-standard lab equipment, why body composition tells you more than scale weight ever could, and why tracking trends is often more important than chasing perfect numbers. This conversation will show you how technology can bring lab-grade insights straight to your pocket.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 – Intro
2:36 – Why body composition matters
6:56 – How a phone measures fat
10:55 – Accuracy versus precision explained
14:38 – Lean mass and muscle changes
20:15 – Why fat distribution is key
29:56 – Apple versus pear body shapes
33:20 – How often should you measure
40:15 – Using your phone for HRV
45:34 – Predicting VO₂ max with data
48:32 – Turning numbers into outcomes

Episode resources:

• Website: spren.com 

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/thehumanjason 

• Instagram: @thehumanjason 

Can Your Phone Really Track Body Fat Like a $100K DEXA Machine?

If you care about building muscle, losing fat, and improving health, you have probably heard of the DEXA scan. It is considered the gold standard for measuring body fat, lean mass, and fat distribution, but at more than $100,000 for the equipment and a hefty fee per scan, it is not practical for most people. Enter smartphone-based body composition apps that claim to give you DEXA-level accuracy with just your phone’s camera.

Jason Moore, founder of Spren, joined me to talk about how this technology works, why it matters, and what metrics beyond body fat percentage could transform how you approach your physique goals.

The Evolution of Body Composition Tracking

For decades, the scale has dominated how people think about progress. Later came BMI, calipers, tape measures, InBody scans, and of course DEXA. Each has its benefits and drawbacks. What makes smartphone technology unique is that it combines accessibility with validated accuracy.

By training machine learning models on thousands of side-by-side scans with DEXA, Spren has created algorithms that can analyze images of your body and estimate fat mass, lean mass, and fat distribution. Every scan improves its calibration to your individual body, which increases precision over time.

Why Fat Distribution Matters More Than Body Fat Percentage

We often think the number itself is what matters: 18 percent body fat, 25 percent body fat, and so on. But Jason points out that where you store fat is more important than the total amount when it comes to health risks.

• Gynoid fat (hips, thighs, butt) is generally less harmful.

• Android fat (trunk and midsection) correlates with visceral fat, which surrounds your organs and is tied to heart disease, diabetes, and inflammation.

Spren’s Android-Gynoid ratio (AG ratio) is one of the best available proxies for visceral fat. Improving that ratio not only changes how your body looks but also improves health markers.

Lean Mass: The Most Valuable Tissue You Have

Spren also tracks lean mass, which includes water, bones, organs, and most importantly, skeletal muscle. Over time, the biggest changeable factor is muscle. And since muscle mass is one of the strongest predictors of longevity, performance, and metabolic health, monitoring it alongside fat loss is critical.

This makes Spren useful not just for people chasing aesthetics but also for anyone prioritizing healthspan. As Dr. Gabrielle Lyon often says, we do not have an obesity problem so much as a muscle deficiency problem.

Frequency of Measurement: Weekly is Best

Like weight tracking, consistency matters. DEXA scans can be thrown off by hydration and food intake, and smartphone scans are no different. But because you can measure frequently at home, the algorithm smooths out these variables.

Most users find that once per week works best. It balances accuracy with sustainability and avoids the psychological fatigue of obsessing over daily fluctuations. If you prefer daily scans, you can, but the improvements in precision are marginal compared to the mental load.

Beyond Body Fat and Muscle: HRV and VO2 Max

Spren is not stopping at body composition. Using the phone’s camera and fingertip measurements, the app can track heart rate variability (HRV), resting heart rate, and respiration. These markers are powerful indicators of recovery, readiness, and stress.

Soon, Spren will roll out validated estimates of VO2 max, a key measure of cardiovascular fitness. By combining body composition, HRV, and VO2 max, your phone will give you a well-rounded view of both health and performance, without the need for expensive lab tests or wearables.

Why This Matters for Everyday Lifters

Most lifters and everyday athletes do not need bodybuilding-level precision. What they need is reliable, repeatable data that tells them if their training and nutrition are working. Smartphone-based tracking can provide:

• Confirmation that lean mass is being maintained during a cut

• Evidence that muscle is being built during a bulk

• Insights into whether fat loss is coming from the midsection (android fat) or less concerning areas

• Recovery data to adjust training intensity and stress management

All from the same device you carry everywhere.

The Takeaway

While no method is perfect, the technology behind smartphone body composition apps is now accurate enough to rival clinical tools like DEXA. When used consistently, it can track fat loss, muscle gain, fat distribution, and even recovery metrics in a way that is practical and affordable.

If you want better insight into whether your hard work in the gym and kitchen is paying off, it might be time to put your phone to work.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Can a smartphone app match the accuracy of a $100,000 DEXA scanner for body composition? My guest today discusses new technology that uses your phone's camera to measure body fat percentage, your Android to gynoid or AG ratio and HRV, all without additional hardware. Learn how weekly measurements compare to daily and monthly tracking, how professional coaches are integrating this technology with elite athletes, and how you can better track progress to achieve your health and physique goals. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing a new way to measure body composition using your smartphone.

Philip Pape: 0:52

You guys know I like tech, I love data, I love precision and I was excited to have Jason Moore here today. He is my guest. He's the founder and CEO of Spren, a company that is turning your phone into a precision biometric tool and linking to lots of other amazing things that we can get into. Spren has already helped over a million users measure body comp, the AG ratio which we're going to explain what that is HRV and soon other things like VO2 max and even, I think, mental stress load, using nothing but your phone's camera. Today, you're going to learn how this technology's accuracy compares to other everyday measurements like calipers, like tape, as well as clinical equipment like DEXA, why additional metrics like the AG ratio that I just mentioned might be more helpful than some others like body fat percentage alone and how the timing of your measurements and other process-related improvements can dramatically affect your results. So, jason, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Jason Moore: 1:45

Hey, philip, happy to be here, thank you, thanks for hosting, and I love that I'm in good company with a bunch of nerds that are ready to dig in on data and technology. So, yeah, excited to be here.

Philip Pape: 1:56

Oh, 100%, man, this is cool stuff, I love this stuff. And when you look at the history of how we measure body composition which, by the way, some people don't even know what we're talking about when we say body comp, right, we're talking about the percentage of different types of tissue in your body, like fat to muscle, and we care about that because just losing weight isn't the only marker of health right, it's your overall body composition. And when you look at the evolution of, okay, we've got scale weight, then we have BMI, then we have BMI, then we have measuring body fat in all different ways, lots of confusion, and now we have fat distribution. Even so, if a healthy physique is really important to somebody who's listening, what is the best way to think about body composition before we get into the details?

Jason Moore: 2:36

of measuring it. Yeah, I mean, that's a super critical kickoff point. So thanks for bringing it up, because if you've ever worked with clients, if you're a coach out there or something like that, and you ask people like what's your goal, they might say, like lose 20 pounds, and you're like, well, why right? And it's like, well, I don't know, I just need to lose 20 pounds. And if you really kind of start to unpack it, usually it's either because they may know that they're kind of you know, carrying a little extra fat, or they don't like how they look, or they don't like how they feel, or there's some health or longevity reason. You know, potentially they got diagnosed with prediabetes or something like that. Right, like they kind of triggered this. A lot of times it's looks and or even if it's not, a lot of times the outcome can be tied to looks, because that we're just very visual creatures and so instead of asking them, you know how much weight you want to lose. If you show pictures of like different looking physiques and say, like point to the one that you think that you want to be like, you know, in the next reasonable amount of time, let's say six months or something like that and they point to one. You might actually say, hey, you don't actually need to lose any weight on the scale to look like that, and what really might just need to happen is we need to just prioritize, you know, our lean mass, like our muscle, a little bit more and trade some of that fat for lean mass. You might actually end up being the same weight on the scale, but look a lot better, look or like more like your goal, so to speak. But look a lot better, look or like more like your goal, so to speak, also feel a lot better and then have a lot of your health markers get into range. And so body composition.

Jason Moore: 4:12

Maybe this is about a roundabout answer here, but body composition looks way beyond that scale weight and looks at the composition from a fat and muscle and water perspective, but also the distribution around your body, because it matters where you carry fat and muscle. Generally speaking, more muscle is better for most people. There's some diminishing returns at the top of that, but when it comes to fat, being like a little bit soft is really not that big of a deal from a health perspective. Like a little bit soft is really not that big of a deal from a health perspective. There's no real evidence that having a little extra fat is unhealthy. It's where that fat is on your body that really matters from a health perspective. But in any case, too, there's a looks portion of that that body composition gives us a window into. So does that kind of cover it.

Philip Pape: 5:03

you think, yeah, no, you hit on some really good points. I want to reiterate for listeners the first is just the weight loss versus fat loss, and I like that you use the language there, because a lot of people don't, especially with marketing in this industry. Your website if you go through the onboarding to figure out what the best way to use the app is, right off the bat it talks about fat loss and I was happy to see that. Right, I know you guys use the term weight loss in articles and stuff, but still, the look and feel versus the health right, they're not mutually exclusive. I love that you mentioned that as well, because you know we talked about on the show. It's okay to have vanity goals, it's okay to care about how you look, because ultimately that's an expression of your health and it's not that we're looking for external validation so much as there's an internal confidence and self-image associated with that, and I think it's a mentally healthy place to be when it's tied to your health and the process, as opposed to tied to weight loss at all costs.

Philip Pape: 5:55

You then said the two different physiques, so what came to my mind was a little bit of a litmus test when you ask, let's say, a woman. You ask her what is a ideal physique and she points to an athlete who's pretty lean. And then you ask her to guess the scale weight and invariably they're going to be off. You know, not everybody. If they know I'm trying to trick them, they'll go higher. But they're generally like 20 or 30 pounds heavier than you think right Because of the density differences and the lean mass and all that.

Philip Pape: 6:22

And then you mentioned the distribution of fat, which I want to get into. One of your competitors keeps adding different metrics like booty score and physique score, and I'm like it's pretty funny because it looks like algorithmically it tries to be tied to where the fat is, just like when you get a DEXA or when you get an InBody or something, and they try to measure visceral fat, right. So I want to talk about that. First of all, how can a smartphone measure all this? Because I want to understand that. And then let's get into what it's measuring and body fat distribution, all that good stuff.

Jason Moore: 6:56

Yeah for sure. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I'm a technologist and I've done some inventions on my own and stuff, but the things that we're doing now just kind of blow my mind with the phone and the camera, because there's a lot of different ways to do it. One of those would be like if you were to look at an image of an individual standing and you could see their whole body right, you could kind of go and measure like okay, if you knew their height, you could go measure their waist, and you could go measure like their shoulders and things like that, and you could start to get an idea of their body composition. That way, it'd be a rough estimate, but you know, that's kind of what we do. Again, if you're a coach and you're looking at somebody like a client standing right in front of you, you can kind of gauge their height, you can kind of gauge their shape, and you can kind of start to make some guesses at their body composition. So that's one way.

Jason Moore: 7:46

And then what we've done, though, is, you know, dexa is kind of the gold standard, so to speak, of what consumers have access to.

Jason Moore: 7:53

Of course, mri is really more of the gold standard and like autopsy or something, but that's a one way, you know, measurement.

Jason Moore: 8:02

So in any case, we benchmark off of DEXA and what we've done is we've had thousands and thousands of people do DEXA scans and also take images with their phones of their body, and then we train machine learning models to start to see what the DEXA sees by predicting that outcome using different machine learning models. And so for us, I mean, that's an expensive way to develop these estimating technologies, and some companies have spent dozens and dozens of millions of dollars trying to figure out how to do that, and we've been very fortunate to have some major unlocks that have really made the accuracy essentially comparable to DEXA, by collecting enough ground truth data and pairing it with a diverse population, and then some in-house expertise of we've just been working with sensors and physiology measurements for over a decade. So that's kind of how we do it. It's a little bit of a black box underneath the hood, you know. There's probably some things like that going on that like a human could start to do, but then the machine learning models just take all of that to the next level.

Philip Pape: 9:09

Yeah, no man, I'm nerding out on this because I love that stuff.

Philip Pape: 9:13

Before we got on the call, you were talking about how you guys have been using AI machine learning long before ChatGPT existed and people don't realize that that kind of technology has been probably two decades in the making across a variety of fields. Right and so taking real-world of technology has been probably two decades in the making across a variety of fields right and so taking real world data that has been validated after the fact with higher quality machines like a DEXA, and then reversing that back into okay, what can we infer from the data? I love that. When you take that compared to, let's say, a very simple way to measure fat that I have clients do or suggest to people, is the Navy formula, neck and waist, or for females, neck, waist, hips right, and there's supposes that there's some sort of ratio going on there. And I tell people look the number, don't trust the number, trust the trend over time of the number. Is your technology giving you a number that you think is actually reasonably accurate, or do you also have some reservations on that?

Jason Moore: 10:06

No, yes, so insofar as much as you trust DEXA. And so DEXA is not perfect. In fact we're within the margin of error of DEXA itself. So if you take multiple DEXA machines and compare them to each other and then you kind of take like a weighted average or something like that, then we're actually closer to the weighted average than the individual machines sometimes are, and so the accuracy is very high for the actual number. But then the precision is even higher because we have some advantages in the sense that we have software and you know the whole infrastructure behind the software to then calibrate. So one of the neat things about our algorithm is that every time you do a scan it calibrates to you and your body, and so the precision actually goes up with the more scans that you do.

Philip Pape: 10:55

Oh, the internal precision for you. Yeah, okay, the internal precision of the algorithm.

Jason Moore: 10:59

That's right, and so the other thing that that does is allows you to start washing out things like water weight fluctuations, and so the other thing that that does is allows you to start washing out things like water weight fluctuations, and so even DEXA is sensitive to changes in water and bioimpedance and these other technologies are as well, and by being able to do the scans frequently over time, we actually can isolate out those variables and get even more accurate with the numbers.

Philip Pape: 11:23

Oh man, let's dig into that because you got ahead of my next question, which was ahead of my notes. Conditions like fluid, right, because that's the big thing. I tell people if they're going to get a DEXA. Try to replicate exactly what you did same time of day, like before you drink and eat all this fun stuff. You're saying because of your own frequency of data collection, it can smooth those out. Is that like so? If I did it in the morning one day, afternoon, the other day after eating a bunch?

Jason Moore: 11:46

you know, fat loss versus muscle gain it can account for that I mean, so we would still recommend that you try to do it in a consistent way, but the short answer is that, yes, at least better than alternatives can, right, and so you know that's you're hitting on.

Jason Moore: 12:01

A really important point is that a lot of people like, let's say, if you're a member of a gym or you know something like that, you go in and you do a workout and then you're like, oh, I guess I'll do a body scan while I'm here, and it's just like completely random what the state of your body might be.

Jason Moore: 12:16

You may be super dehydrated or you may be more hydrated if you've been chugging water the whole time you were working out, and then it depends what you ate and when the last time you ate was and all of these other factors. So what we find is that, even if there are facilities in a gym to do this, people end up liking doing it at home because it's just easier to be consistent and so you can like. The average that people do for us is they measure once a week, and so it's like a Sunday morning kind of routine or something. You get up, you do your scan before you do other things. You know you can like take a sip of water. It's not, it's not going to be that sensitive, but and then, yeah, and so you can create that consistency a little bit easier if you're able to just do it wherever you are with your phone.

Philip Pape: 13:02

And there's no special suit required, like one of your competitors.

Jason Moore: 13:05

No special suit.

Philip Pape: 13:05

No yeah that's I have that, I have that, and I'm like it's annoying to have to put that on, even though it's cool. Yeah, yeah.

Jason Moore: 13:11

And it's yeah, it's interesting, I think it's clever and I think all of these things are just good for the consumer to have options and thing that works for you. And, honestly, I think you also hit on a really important point at the beginning of this question, which is that as you track over time, the direction matters even more, unless you're in an absolute where that's at one of the extremes right. So if you're like extremely obese, for example, then yes, that's very important to know and you probably already know that if you're in that state, and then the trend away from that state is really where the magic starts to happen.

Philip Pape: 13:52

Cool, all right. So we know about or we, I should say the general public generally when I talk to them, knows about lean mass versus fat mass and how lean mass is comprised of fluid and glycogen, as well as organs and bone tissue and muscle Muscle. We can't forget muscle and that you're trying to reduce your overall body fat and that alone is going to correlate very highly with health and your physique. But there's other things you measure, and that's what I want to get into how they measure them for one, because I'm very curious, whatever you're able to reveal, but the AG ratio, the distribution, visceral fat, you know. Maybe give us a hierarchy of each of these. And then what's most important and why should we care about these?

Jason Moore: 14:38

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, like you hit on, like knowing your lean mass and your lean mass index, which is basically indexed against your height, these are really critical things, you know. I think Dr Gabrielle Lyon she's kind of says we have a sarcopenia problem, you know, not an obesity problem, and it's basically that muscle especially is just this precious metabolic tissue that does so many beneficial things for the body and for your brain function and your longevity. So that's a critical one that we obviously provide. You know, over time, if you were to measure changes in lean mass which you said includes water, organs, bones and then of course muscle and other things really over time, the thing that changes muscle and other things really over time, the thing that changes that you can change the most is muscle, right, and so water is what you see changing day to day.

Jason Moore: 15:31

You know, if people are measuring their body weight on a scale and they're like I lost five pounds yesterday and then I gained it all back the next day, it's like no, that was just water, right, you know for the most part. And but then over the longer periods of time, you know that noise kind of washes out and muscle is really the thing that is the primary driver of change in lean mass. Hopefully you're not. You know decreasing and increasing bone weight that much. It's very light compared to the muscle tissue. So that's one.

Philip Pape: 16:00

Can we actually interrupt on that one? Because people who really nerd out on this stuff and I actually came up with my own spreadsheet for this about a year ago, trying to infer the actual muscle because the skeletal muscle there's no way to do it and maybe you're going to correct me if I'm wrong other than to say, okay, studies have determined it's roughly this percentage and now you can infer against how you gain or lose lean body mass and try to, like you know, based on your wrist size. There's like some other interesting factors that go into trying to estimate and at the end of the day, you kind of don't care really, because what matters is the lean mass changes, your fat mass changing. But what are your thoughts on that, on like skeletal muscle itself and measuring that?

Jason Moore: 16:41

Yeah.

Jason Moore: 16:41

So it's a great question, and different companies who create measurement tools have kind of their proprietary formula, so to speak, that they claim is like better than anything else out there, and we have formulas internally that we also use, that we start always from the scientific research, and so most of the time the hard part for us is getting all the sensing algorithms working, and that's where our secret sauce is.

Jason Moore: 17:04

But then, when it comes to calculating changes in the physiology, we try to stay as close as we can to the scientific literature, and so you know, like you did, probably as your starting point for your spreadsheet, and but then from there it's exactly the mentality that we have is, again, it comes back to then the changes over time, Right. That we have is, again, it comes back to then the changes over time, right. And so, again, making it so that you can measure more frequently allows us to start to isolate out that kind of what is a normal, let's say, like a standard deviation for your daily weight fluctuation, right, as a very simplistic kind of way of describing changes in water Fluid.

Philip Pape: 17:42

Yeah, yeah, that's great.

Jason Moore: 17:43

Exactly so. That allows us to establish a baseline and understand like what your coefficient of variation is on changes in fluid, and then from there we can start to see the macro level trend occurring. That is more likely. There's just a higher probability that that's changing skeletal muscle actually.

Philip Pape: 18:03

Okay, and a tangent off. The tangent, before we get back to the list of things, is different phases, right? So we talk a lot about periodization. You get a muscle gain phase or fat loss phase, and in a muscle gain phase you just have a lot more gut content, a lot more carb consumption, a lot more glycogen in your muscle mass and your liver and everything, and then the opposite direction. So can you account for that? Is there a way for the user to input data on that, or do you just again the weekly? Just will work it out over time.

Jason Moore: 18:30

It's getting more and more sophisticated. The weekly kind of works itself out over time. But you know, another example of that is like going on or off of creatine, for example, right. So you know, right now, just to be transparent, that will pretty much count as a boost to your lean mass or your muscle when you cycle on to creatine, if you were not using it previously. Now, the good news is is, again, you'll know when you do that and we provide some ways that you can kind of log that you're starting creatine, for example, and then from there the trend is still very meaningful, right, yes, and then from there the trend is still very meaningful, right? And so that's kind of how we're handling it right now. But we're always trying to get more sophisticated with those things. But it is tricky and to your point, from a practical perspective, at the end of the day, what we're really needing is to know that our behaviors are translating to a positive trajectory, and so, yeah, we're dialing that in more and more.

Philip Pape: 19:25

Yeah, it reminds me a lot of you know you're familiar with macro factor. Are you stronger by science? So we use that, like all my clients use it. I talk about it all the time because they have a similar philosophy of with their expenditure algorithm, of trying to smooth it out, avoid overcorrection, handle all these transitions and handle discrete things that lifters are doing, like creatine, that you can really point out and that is a big one, because that is a source of frustration for people. I say look, expect anywhere from two to like five or six pounds of you just don't know. Some people are over-responders and they're so over-responding that like it takes a month or two to work itself out and then it looks like you're burning way fewer calories and, like you said, it looks like you have all this extra lean mass. That's just fluid, so it's good to be aware of that. So back to the hierarchy. So you just talked about lean mass versus fat mass. What's next, or what's the next level down?

Jason Moore: 20:15

Yeah, so then you can get really really deep on distribution of fat and muscle around the body From a muscle perspective. Like I mentioned earlier, generally more is better for most people, for most things, but if you're going for a specific look, then you may care a little bit about more of the distribution of that muscle, depending on the audience. I mean that I would say for most people doesn't matter until you're at the more advanced stages of muscle development, matter, until you're at, like, the more advanced stages of muscle development, and that for most people it's just like, hey, let's develop the entire body, you know, from a muscle perspective. And in any case, though for fat, this is where it kind of bridges into like are your priorities looks? Are your priorities health and longevity?

Jason Moore: 21:00

For, again, most people the overlap is very high between those things, but then at some point, you know, they do diverge a bit. What we really care about from a health perspective is visceral adipose tissue, which is basically the fat that's around the organs and in your abdominal region. That is the really big, you know, red flag for health and longevity and health outcomes, and it also isn't helpful for aesthetics either. It tends to be a really high correlation between visceral adipose tissue and body shapes that people don't like.

Philip Pape: 21:34

Yes, yes, yeah, exactly, Muffin top, menopause, belly beer, gut, all the phrases we know right, yes, yes, exactly.

Jason Moore: 21:42

And so for us we offer this thing called android-gynoid ratio and android fat, and gynoid fat specifically, can be measured. But this is sort of it's not a direct measure of visceral adipose tissue, because what it is is android is the trunk, essentially how much fat are you carrying in the trunk and gynoid is the lower, like the hips, in the lower limb region of the body. And this is there's, these ratios like you just mentioned, like neck, waist and hips, for example, or waist to hip ratio, these things that are kind of nice, simple markers that are very useful in fact, if no one's beyond the scale, if somebody is like wants a really easy thing to start with, if you have a tape measure, you can start measuring your waist and your hips and your neck, right, and it doesn't cost anything. You can just and you can start to get an idea of whether or not you're moving in the right direction. But in any case, we measure those things you know, automatically now, and the-gynoid ratio is basically the best proxy indicator of visceral adipose tissue other than directly measuring the visceral adipose tissue. The correlation in the research is anywhere from like 0.7 to 0.95, depending on kind of the population and the measurement methods, but in any case, it's a very high correlation between the android-gynoid ratio and the visceral adipose tissue number. So again, this kind of comes back to what we just said about body shapes that you don't want typically correlate with high visceral adipose tissue or fat around those organs.

Jason Moore: 23:26

With high visceral adipose tissue or fat around those organs, and it may not, as a percentage, be that much of your body fat, right? So the visceral adipose tissue as a percentage of your total body fat may not be that much, but it's the dangerous stuff. And so you know. Regular exercise, lots of walking, anti-inflammatory lifestyle whether that's getting enough recovery and sleep, managing stress, having eating high quality foods with lots of nutritious choices versus kind of more, like you know, rich processed foods All of these things not only help us feel more energetic and like look better, but those are the things that happen to also improve visceral adipose tissue as well.

Jason Moore: 24:06

So, yeah, we just try to help make that easy for people to measure. We are not, so the camera can't see inside your body and that's why we need to be very like, clear about what we're measuring right. And similarly, bioimpedance and other tools don't directly measure visceral adipose tissue unless you were to place the measurement tools directly on that area of the body right, and x-rays can see inside right Like a dex as an x-ray, and so all of these tools are estimating, and as are we, but that's how we present it to, let's say, the end user, because really it's a win-win. If you're just improving your Android gynoid ratio, it's something you can measure now, whenever you want, using our app, and then you'll get an indication not only of the aesthetic goal but, if you're likely, improving the visceral adipose tissue as well.

Philip Pape: 25:02

Yeah, the fact that it presents itself visually obviously seems to be a plus in terms of being able to measure it. When you're taking an image and you're sensing these things Because I was going to ask you about that it's like how do you infer fat mass? You said you have all this validated kind of reverse engineered data Then you must be correlating that with the outward appearance of someone effectively. Is that a simple way to put it?

Jason Moore: 25:25

Yes, yeah, and we so we require you to get in your underwear usually, or, or, if you, certain fitness attire works to like sports bra and like tight fitted biking shorts or something like that. But yeah, it's really amazing what machine learning and computer vision can do and what it can see that the human eye can't really see. And because there's different gradients on the skin, you know, depending on this is another thing too that we've had to develop, and why it's so expensive to develop this stuff is changes in lighting actually can change your appearance quite a lot, right, and so we tell people you've got to have adequate lighting. You can't do our measurement in the dark, but the cool thing is is that once you reach a critical mass of volunteers and training data and ground truth data, it actually can account for the changes in lighting. Interesting.

Philip Pape: 26:17

Like self-driving cars kind of that's what I'm thinking of, how they can handle just about any environment. Yeah, Okay.

Jason Moore: 26:23

Yeah, and so the cool thing too is we can even detect, like, okay, last time that you did a scan you were standing six feet from the phone and this time you're standing six and a half feet from the phone. We don't just assume that you got shorter since the last time that you did a scan. Right, we can actually detect that and account for that and correct for that.

Philip Pape: 26:45

You know, as we were talking, I was rudely Googling something that came to mind as you were mentioning visceral fat, because there's something called the body roundness index. You must be familiar with this Body roundness index, which calculates visceral fat based on gender, ethnicity, age, height, weight, waist, hips, and it tries to determine your adipose tissue. And I don't know how validated it is, but it sounds similar, right? It's using again outward measures and I suspect you have a lot more fidelity because you're able to use more. Is that the case? I guess, when you're measuring fat mass and visceral fat and everything, have you found that there's a kind of complex web of data points and it's like a human wouldn't really be able to comprehend it because the machine learning has gotten to that point, or can it be kind of proxied and simplified in some way? To admit, that's pretty good.

Jason Moore: 27:33

Yeah. So I mean like to your point. Yes, you can start like it's kind of like we were saying earlier where you can like, as a coach, you can look at a client and see, like, generally speaking, I know they're in this range, right, and you may be plus or minus some amount, and as you learn more about them you may get a little bit more accurate. The body roundness index is intended to be a replacement or an improvement to BMI, and so body mass index is essentially just your weight and your height compared, right, and essentially what you know. Let's say. Let's take the military, for example. The military used to exclude people from qualification for duty based on BMI, so you could have a really strong individual that's got high muscle density be excluded from, you know, qualification for duty.

Jason Moore: 28:21

The very people you want in the military big, strong guys from qualification for duty, the very people you want in the military big, strong guys, exactly, yeah, and so BMI is just really not that useful for a lot of things, and we're finding that out more and more. Bri is sort of an answer to that. It's something that you can measure with low tech, basically, and get a much better indication directionally of somebody's health or their metabolic health and ability, and so it's better predictor for a lot of different risks. But it still is not the same as doing a DEXA scan or understanding your visceral adipose tissue a little bit more closely or, in our case, your android-gynoid ratio. That is the best estimate of that.

Philip Pape: 29:02

Cool. Yeah, I knew you would know about that. It's just one of those new things on the scene because people talk about BMI a lot and how awful it is, even though it still has some validity at the extremes.

Jason Moore: 29:12

I mean it's definitely like look, you know, if you're really jacked, right, so like if you measure your BMI and it's like too high, and you look at yourself and you're like I'm jacked, then you know.

Philip Pape: 29:23

That's all my clients, man, that's all my clients. No, you use your intuition in that scenario right.

Jason Moore: 29:29

Otherwise, the BMI might be telling you something that you know there's something to improve there.

Philip Pape: 29:34

Yeah, no, that's funny. You mentioned that Cause. Yeah, but most people I know who have been lifting a while, they do get to that point where they're carrying extra weight on purpose and they have more muscle. So it's like you're in that easily in that what looks like obese category and it's like don't worry about it. The apple and pear shape discussion that we've talked about over the years is that relevant here? Is that related to the AG ratio as well?

Jason Moore: 29:56

Yes, so if you have a higher android-gynoid ratio, which means the android number is higher typically than the, gynoid one yeah, so that's that apple shape.

Jason Moore: 30:06

And then if you have the reverse, where your gynoid number is higher and that's a lower ratio, that's more of that pear shape. And so men typically have a little bit more of an apple shape. Just, you know, stereotypically carry fat more around the midsection and women, more stereotypically, carry it more in the hips, the butt, the thighs, etc. And have more of the midsection, and women, more stereotypically, carry it more in the hips, the butt, the thighs, et cetera, and have more of that pear shape. And so you know, generally speaking it's you can get really into the weeds for any individual right? Yeah, makes sense, but those are kind of the general ranges.

Philip Pape: 30:40

So if it's top to bottom and that's the ratio, do we care about a number on a scale or do we care about change again?

Jason Moore: 30:48

really strong, especially like. Take the difference between a bodybuilder and like a strong man. Right and strong men, competitors tend to have very thick trunks but it's like huge amounts of muscle, you know, whereas a bodybuilder can have tons of muscle but have a pretty narrow waist, and a strong man would then have a higher AG ratio versus the bodybuilder, and it's difficult to say in those extreme cases.

Jason Moore: 31:29

I guess which one is more or less healthy? Right, Right, Because it kind of just depends. If they're recreationally pursuing those sports, then they both might be perfectly healthy, but at some point they're both sacrificing health to pretty high degrees in chase of performance. And so, in any case, if you're looking at the AG ratio, the reference ranges are based on, like the mean population norms, and so you don't want to be out of range most of the time, unless again you're super jacked and you know it Got it. So yeah, high AG ratio generally means more adipose tissue, more visceral adipose tissue in the midsection and again, isolating out fat from muscle as well, because in that strongman bodybuilder example a lot of that was lean mass. But we're wanting to look at fat distribution really.

Philip Pape: 32:30

Okay, yeah, no, that's fascinating stuff. I'm just curious behind the scenes what it all means, because I think of how we're all so different and I've always said I have a bigger butt than the average man. Most guys have flat butts and I have a big one, so my AG ratio is probably going to be a little bit wonky to start, but then it matters how it changes over time. Measurement a couple times I did want to address that because when it comes to measuring lots of different things, we have different scales. We measure right From daily to weekly to monthly to quarterly, depending on what it is Usually like food and weight. I generally recommend people do daily if they're trying to be precise about it, and then they use averages and trends. I think you mentioned weekly on Sundays, which also sounds like pretty much aligns with general advice when it comes to body measurements just basic metrics, but why wouldn't you do it more frequently or less frequently than that?

Jason Moore: 33:20

So you can, and that's just kind of where the average, where people land, and so some people do it daily and then kind of, you know, again, we just strongly caution. This this all kind of basically comes back to is we don't, since we're not selling a device and we don't have all these costs tied to that. Our goal is to not get you to just do measurements for the sake of doing measurements, so to speak. Sure that we're selling outcomes, right. So basically it's like the measurement tool is just one thing that is important in getting you to the outcome that you're looking for, and so that's important context that we can dig into. But then the other piece is the mindset of the individual doing the measurements, right. So if you really want to be an optimizer, then you could do these every day and you will just know and we will try to educate you as well that those daily fluctuations that you may see are a little bit more tied to you know, water changes and things like that. And then we're trying to look at the macro trend a little bit more there, Right? And and then again, you could do it less frequently once a month, once a quarter, People who do DEXA scans usually are doing them, maybe once a year or maybe twice a year or something like that.

Jason Moore: 34:40

The problem is, there is again. It's like doing a blood test once a year. That's great. It's better than never doing a blood test. But certain markers, even in blood biomarkers, heavily depend upon what you ate the day before. Yes, yes, yes.

Stephanie: 34:56

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment. It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Philip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits that you only did two measurements.

Jason Moore: 35:57

Well then, if you're on like a down slope on one measurement and you're on an upslope on the other measurement, you might be like, oh, my weight hasn't changed at all, or something, when in reality your mean weight over the course of, let's say, a couple weeks, that baseline might be 10 pounds different actually. And so what we're trying to do is kind of zero in on what's a frequency that allows us to make decisions and make informed choices but not overwhelm ourselves. You know, depending on what our mindset is or capacity for isolating out variables.

Philip Pape: 36:26

Yes, and that's a really important point, is the psychological and the fatigue that comes along with any of these systems. I mean, same thing goes with food and tracking and everything else. It's like that balance between precision and going crazy, like you know. Where's the fine point? I think it's a fascinating topic because in the scale weight world right there have been a lot of studies on this. There's a fascinating one that compared five days, compared zero, like once a week, to five days a week, to seven days a week, and found that the seven days a week tracking had the best adherence and sustainability results.

Philip Pape: 37:02

And I mentioned macro factor before and they use a exponential 20 day exponential moving average for weight, which is like okay, over a three week period. That's long enough to know that you've accounted for water weight fluctuations and because you're weighting the more recent measurements more heavily, that also gives you a good confidence that you're either going up or going down. So that's why I think it's fascinating with measurements, because I've never recommended more than once a week only because your body can't change that fast in terms of measurements. But when you have this level of precision you guys have, I wonder if that changes the equation where, like if you don't mind doing it every day. Does that give you any sort of edge? Does it help the app? Does it help it learn about you and all that? Or is it kind of is there a sweet spot for people who are willing to do it more frequently? That's what I'm asking.

Jason Moore: 37:48

Yeah, I would put it more in the optimization camp to do that. So yes, the algorithm gets better if you do it frequently that way, but not that much better. And also from a practical decision-making point of view, you know you're probably not making big changes in your. So it's like measuring like sleep or HRV or something like that. You can measure that on a daily basis and look at these kind of weighted moving averages and things and say like, oh, I got a little bit of a light sleep. I'm not really going to change my whole routine for the day based on that, but if you have a major red flag come up you might right. That doesn't happen typically with body composition and so, unless you're just extremely dehydrated. So that is one. Actually let's part the curtain, I guess, a little bit on.

Jason Moore: 38:37

One reason why some of our members have started to measure more frequently is as we start isolating out the changes in fluid. That does give us a little bit of a window into hydration, and so we're kind of studying that still, because I think it would be kind of easy to over extrapolate that. But in any case there might be some guidance that would be useful on how much to prioritize hydration or electrolyte balance or things like that. Based on some of these like more daily changes or short term changes. But yeah, from body composition point of view, to your point, once a week is great. You know, at the end of the week you can see some of the change happening and start to have that like directional trend forming, even after just one week, and start to make choices of like are my protein targets or are my macros or are my calorie targets, kind of keeping me in the direction or range that I want to go in. Right, Fascinating.

Philip Pape: 39:37

You keep bringing up topics that I would love to go down in the future, like the hydration because immediately my mind goes to the amount of water you're carrying at any given moment isn't as simple as how much hydration you've had right. It's also what you've eaten and how much sodium you've had. And menstrual cycle for women and inflammation from your heavy leg day yesterday. It's insane how much effects fluid containing your body and you might drink the exact same amount day to day. So that's fascinating. Hrv you mentioned it, so you opened the door to that. Because you guys measure HRV and I know you're working on VO2 max or inferring VO2 max. Tell us about those. Let's start with HRV VO2max or inferring VO2max.

Jason Moore: 40:15

Tell us about those. Let's start with HRV. Yeah, so I mean overall, our mission is basically to take meaningful data points that are used in lab settings and to break down the barriers so that people can just measure them, while keeping the quality high. Hrv is actually where our company spent. You know, basically the first half of our existence was focused on HRV, and so we have a long history with it.

Jason Moore: 40:35

We worked with the polar chest straps, the Garmin chest straps and using Bluetooth and when that was innovative a decade ago. And then we created our own hardware, a medical grade sensor that we distributed to 80 countries around the world and then discovered that we could do countries around the world and then discovered that we could do again kind of cannibalized ourselves in that regard by saying we had all this ground truth data coming from validated sensors like chest straps and ECG based sensors, and we could use that data to train models, to then detect heart rate, hrv and respiration using just the camera of the phone. And so we have that technology now it's in the Sprint app as well, and you can track resting, heart rate, hrv and respiration just by touching your fingertip to the camera on the back of your phone and doing heart rate that way is not actually that novel. There's a lot of companies that have been looking at that and it's a similar technology that wearables use. So you know, ppg is this whole rabbit hole we could talk about.

Jason Moore: 41:40

But essentially wearables are shining light into your skin and as the blood flows through that area of the skin, the color and different features of that camera signal change as the blood flows through and different features of that camera signal change as blood flows through, and you can calculate what's called pulse, wave volume and things like that from that data. So similarly, the camera can do that too. If you open the camera app, you don't even need a different app to see this. But if you open the camera app on your phone and just cover the camera with your fingertip, the whole camera will turn red and as light shines through your finger you have to be in a bright room or whatever, right?

Philip Pape: 42:18

Which I am, and I'm doing it yes.

Jason Moore: 42:21

And so some people, if you look closely enough, can actually see their pulse in that in the camera, and so it's pretty cool, I did it.

Philip Pape: 42:28

Right now, guys, I'm seeing it like yeah, yeah, oh man, that's cool, Isn't that cool, right?

Jason Moore: 42:34

So that you know again, you could sit there and count your pulse like on a clock and come up with your heart rate from that number. But a heart rate variability needs a much higher degree of accuracy and granularity, precision. Hrv is essentially calculating the time in between, the variation in time in between each heartbeat, and it's measured in milliseconds. So you need really more precision than the human eye can offer to measure HRV. But the really fascinating thing is once you get HRV and you have resting heart rate, of course, and then respiration can be extrapolated from heart rate and HRV. Respiration can be extrapolated from heart rate and HRV because one of the primary contributors to changes in your HRV is your respiration. It's called respiratory sinus arrhythmia and we could go in this whole rabbit hole for that. But as you breathe in, your heart rate increases and as you breathe out, your heart rate decreases. Unless you're exerting yourself heavily, then it's kind of imperceptible, basically. But in any case, these three things give you a lot of information.

Jason Moore: 43:42

People will typically do this first thing in the morning. Every morning you just wake up, touch your camera for 60 seconds. You'll get that resting HRV, heart rate and respiration data, which then translates into algorithms that we had developed over the last 10 years that allow you to get that readiness and recovery scoring. Some people, who might have a whoop or an aura ring, you know, might be used to having a readiness score or recovery score. That's something that we were some of the pioneers of, but we went in a different direction. Instead of doing the continuous monitoring through a wearable, these are point-in-time measurements that you don't need a wearable for and I have just as much utility, and we have a ton of scientific studies now that we can point to predicting injury, predicting recovery, predicting inflammatory conditions and things like that. Just doing these morning spot check-ins, that is awesome.

Philip Pape: 44:35

I mean the way you could use a camera and some just having this in our pocket, because I love looking at history and like the history of computing and computers and just the space program and everything that we have since then, just to be able to do this is awesome. Look, I know we only have a couple of minutes. Do you have like a few minutes past the hour just to wrap up? Okay, cause the VO two max. I'm really curious about that.

Philip Pape: 44:53

I did my first ever, my only so far VO two max in the lab test, which is miserable for anybody, especially if you don't like cardio, which I don't, like everybody knows. Like I love walking and sprinting, but not going all out for until you die on a on a on a treadmill, which is what they do, guys. It's tough and it was. You know I was carrying excess weight because I was at the top of a bulking phase which then slams the number down, unfortunately, and then I don't have very, I'll say, as high cardiovascular fitness as I would like to have and can work on it. So VO2 max we see it as somewhat of a gold standard of cardiovascular fitness. How do you guys measure? How do you guys plan to measure that?

Philip Pape: 45:34

Or infer it, I guess.

Jason Moore: 45:36

The underlying data is tied to this measuring resting, heart rate, HRV and respiration and so, with some other context pulling in, things like activity level, exercise and some performance stats can enhance the accuracy of the estimate. But even with just those daily physiological measurements, there's actually some pretty good literature now showing that it's essentially looking at the correlation between those and VO2 max. And so we have seen just look, digging into the data, you know we have seen some ways to kind of refine that a little bit more to where we feel comfortable. We tend to have a pretty high bar of like, like you said, like somebody might put out like a booty score or something like that, and that's, that's cool. It talks to people like.

Jason Moore: 46:21

Some people are like oh, I want my booty score to go up or down, I don't know, I'm not sure, but in any case we tend to kind of err on the side of like. Is this related to something that's valid? You know that we've seen proof for, and so VO2 max estimates from these kind of longitudinal cardio respiratory markers are something that we're really excited about because we're getting pretty close on that and from a longevity perspective, or even a performance perspective for many sports, you know, strength, VO2 max, like these are like top of the list things that people should be caring about. From a health, it's like if you're looking for looks, you're looking for health or you're looking for performance, you know. Vo2 max, strength, mobility, balance, muscle mass these are the top of the list.

Philip Pape: 47:12

Okay, and that actually brings up one quick question then, with muscle mass, are you able to give somebody sort of a physique score symmetry, something like that, or is that coming in the future?

Jason Moore: 47:23

It's a good question. Yeah, I mean basically, yes, it's coming in the future, and partially just because, too, these types, as you start to collect all this data, even somebody like you and I, I mean, I don't know, maybe we're pretty off the charts when it comes to our appetite for digging into the data, but 95 to 99% of people are like I want to know that the underlying data is there and that it's credible. But I also just want to see, like this summary score or this like tell me what to do, kind of thing, Right, and so we're always looking for ways to make it easier. Again, that booty score is a good example of like some people are, just like I. Just that's all I want to know is, is my booty going to get more peach perky or you know whatever? And so yes is the short answer, Love it.

Philip Pape: 48:12

Yeah, I can see the skies are living on this, especially the way technology is going. I'm sure you guys' capability is just going to continue to increase. All right, so as we wrap up, is there anything else you wish I'd asked, or anything about what you guys are doing with the population of Spren users that we should know about that? I haven't asked because I don't know to ask it Anything like that.

Jason Moore: 48:32

Yeah Well, I'd mentioned that we're selling outcomes and that people kind of scratch their head a little when I say this.

Jason Moore: 48:39

But these measurement tools and the data that you get out of them is just this tiny slice of the pie when it comes to the overall health and wellness journey or the performance journey, and I obviously think it's an important slice because I'm devoting my life to it journey, and I obviously think it's an important slice because I'm devoting my life to it.

Jason Moore: 48:56

But all the ways that you translate that into action for your nutrition, for your exercise, for your sleep, for your stress, for recovery, for, you know, relationships and navigating all of that stuff, that's where really all the magic happens, and the data should just be in support of all of that.

Jason Moore: 49:13

And so the first question that we always get when people do our body scans and other things is like wow, I did not know this about myself, now, how do I improve it? Right, and so we're not the experts at everything in the entire world. We can guide you generally in the right direction. But we also now partner with coaches and experts and fitness and wellness facilities and we're excited about that because these brands appreciate these brands and these experts appreciate our scientific credibility and our proof points and quality, but then they can also help bring a lot of the expertise and the guidance and the individual services that people need to actually get the results. So I just wanted to share that, because that's how we see ourselves fitting into the universe, and actively. That's a big part of the platform that we're expanding right now.

Philip Pape: 50:10

Well then, we're aligned because I'll let you in on a secret I only like to have people on the show who are going to teach me something new, that amplify a slice of that pie that we haven't covered too much and that the listener can learn something new. And then the rest of this podcast tries to cover all those other things as well. So I totally feel you, man, because we need them all, but we also need to take action and implement the information. But I love informed decision making and that's what we're trying to do here. I appreciate you, I appreciate your genuine passion for this. I can tell you know there's a lot of different types of folks in the world and I can tell you you're in this and it's important and you want to help people. So thank you so much, jason, for the conversation. This is a lot of fun. I could keep going, but it's and Waits. Where can folks find you? Where do you want to send them to?

Jason Moore: 50:53

Yeah, thanks Sprencom S-P-R-E-N, or you can search for Spren in the app store. We're there as well, so we love hearing from people. So shoot us a message if you've learned something or you have feedback for us or if we can improve in any way. You can find us a little bit on socials. I'm going to be honest and say that we're not the best at keeping like a big social media presence or anything, I like you even more, man, since you said that, because I'm not a huge fan of social either.

Jason Moore: 51:21

Yeah, I mean, it's a great tool for some things, but people also scratch their head when I say over a million people have actually used our tools, but we only have a few thousand followers on social because we're just not that active there. But we only have a few thousand followers on social because we're just not that active there. But we learn genuinely a lot from the community and that's one of our secrets. That's not so secret, but anyways, thank you, philip. This has been awesome and yeah, I can tell by the way you lead all of this, that there's a lot of people in your audience we could learn from as well, so that's exciting.

Philip Pape: 51:51

I love it. Yeah, I'm going to be digging into this more. We're going to we're going to stay in touch, because it's pretty cool when things like this come up, and I wasn't really aware of it, which is crazy, cause I I look into this stuff all the time and somehow, so now we're going to make people aware of it, at least in my community. And again, thanks, jason, for coming on.

Jason Moore: 52:08

Thanks, Bye.

Do You Know Your FFMI? (The Muscle Metric That Ignores Body Fat) | Ep 366

Get your FFMI calculated automatically with the Physique & Biofeedback Tracker in Physique University to track your actual muscle development over time and understand exactly what phase of training you should focus on next. This special link also gets you a FREE custom nutrition plan:
bit.ly/wwpu-free-plan

--

Is your strength training actually building muscle?

Scale weight fluctuates, body fat measurements are inconsistent, and progress photos depend on lighting and angles.

There's one metric that cuts through all this noise:

Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI)

It shows your actual muscle development regardless of whether you're carrying extra fat or feeling bloated, and once you understand yours, it changes everything about setting goals and how to focus your training.

Most lifters have never heard of FFMI. Unlike body weight or even body fat percentage, FFMI isolates your actual muscular development from everything else, giving you clarity about your progress that no other measurement can.

Main Takeaways:

• FFMI measures your muscularity independent of body fat percentage

• Two people with the same training experience can have vastly different FFMI numbers, requiring completely different approaches

• Building muscle takes years, while losing fat takes months, so you need a more precise way to track this

• Your FFMI determines whether you should prioritize muscle building or fat loss (vs. your feelings or the mirror)

Episode Resources:

• Chef's Foundry non-toxic ceramic cookware (50% off): witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry

• Body Recomp Workshop replay and bonuses at live.witsandweights.com (includes free custom nutrition plan)

Timestamps:

0:00 - What is FFMI and why it's a game changer
5:06 - 2 scenarios that reveal everything about your training focus
8:16 - FFMI values explained (what your number actually means)
11:15 - How FFMI determines whether you should cut vs. bulk
17:12 - Natural vs. enhanced FFMI limit
19:45 - Why low FFMI means muscle building is your priority
22:14 - How the fitness industry gets muscle vs. fat loss backward
25:29 - Tracking FFMI over time to validate objective progress
27:03 - Muscle development vs. body composition

Why FFMI Might Be the Most Important Muscle Metric You Aren’t Tracking

If you have been lifting weights for a while, you have probably experienced the mental game of looking in the mirror and asking yourself whether you are actually building muscle. The pump fades, the lighting is bad, or maybe you are carrying some extra fat, and it becomes hard to see progress. Traditional metrics like scale weight, body fat percentage, or progress photos only tell part of the story and often leave you guessing. That is where Fat-Free Mass Index (FFMI) comes in.

FFMI provides a way to measure your actual muscular development relative to your height, independent of how much body fat you are carrying. Unlike scale weight or body fat percentage, FFMI cuts through the noise and shows you what really matters: how much muscle you have built.

What is FFMI?

Fat-Free Mass Index is calculated by taking your lean body mass (everything that is not fat, such as muscle, bone, organs, and water) and dividing it by your height squared. This normalizes muscularity for your frame, so taller and shorter individuals can compare more evenly.

Because it is independent of body fat, FFMI does not change if you are lean or carrying more fat, as long as your muscle mass remains the same. That makes it a reliable marker of progress whether you are in a bulk, a cut, or somewhere in between.

Why FFMI Matters More Than You Think

Most of us make physique decisions based on feelings. Feeling soft usually leads to cutting, while feeling small often leads to bulking. These choices are emotional, not data-driven. FFMI provides objective clarity.

If your FFMI is low, it is a signal that you need to focus on building more muscle. If it is higher but you are carrying extra fat, then cutting to reveal what is already there will give you the best results. It separates the two sides of body composition and helps you prioritize what actually matters.

FFMI Benchmarks and What They Mean

Although there are tables for both men and women, here are some general ranges for men (subtract about 3–4 points for women):

• 17–18: Beginner level. Some muscle, but still early in development.

• 19–20: Recreational lifter. Noticeable muscle mass that others can see, especially when lean.

• 21–22: Serious lifter. Several years of consistent training with visible muscularity regardless of body fat.

• 23–24: Advanced natural lifter. Represents years of dedication and training.

• 25+: Rarely achieved without performance-enhancing drugs. Considered the natural ceiling.

These ranges make FFMI a great tool for setting realistic expectations. Building muscle takes years, not weeks, and FFMI helps you see where you stand on that journey.

Using FFMI to Guide Your Goals

If you are sitting at 20 percent body fat with an FFMI of 19.5, you may already have a solid base of muscle to reveal, so a fat loss phase makes sense. If you are lean with an FFMI of 17, cutting further will not create the physique you want because you simply do not have enough muscle yet. In that case, building muscle should be the priority.

This is where FFMI becomes powerful. It shows you whether your next step should be building or cutting, and it keeps you from spinning your wheels switching back and forth based on how you feel.

The Science Behind the Numbers

Research from the mid-1990s measured FFMI in natural bodybuilders compared to steroid users. Natural lifters almost never exceeded 25, while enhanced athletes often went well above. This number has since been used to spot unrealistic claims about natural physiques. For everyday lifters, it serves as a reality check for how much muscle can be built naturally and how long it takes.

How to Use FFMI in Practice

• During a cut: FFMI should hold steady if you are maintaining muscle while losing fat.

• During a bulk: FFMI should increase slowly if you are gaining muscle rather than just fat.

• During body recomposition: Even small improvements in FFMI show that you are building muscle while trimming fat.

Tracking this number alongside your other metrics can keep you grounded and motivated through the ups and downs of training.

The Mental Shift

Perhaps the biggest benefit of FFMI is psychological. It allows you to celebrate progress in muscularity even if you are not yet lean. It also prevents the trap of endlessly cutting without enough muscle underneath or bulking without a plan. FFMI gives you clarity about what is working and what you should do next.

FFMI is not just another metric. It is one of the most reliable ways to measure actual muscle growth over time, independent of body fat or weight fluctuations. By tracking it, you gain objective insight into whether you are truly building muscle and where you stand relative to realistic, natural benchmarks.

Instead of guessing whether you should bulk, cut, or maintain, let FFMI guide your decisions. Building muscle is the foundation for every physique and performance goal, and this metric keeps you focused on what really matters.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

you've been training for two years. Some days you feel jacked, other days you feel small. You're stronger than ever, but you can't tell if you're actually building muscle or just getting better at lifting. What if I told you there is a number that cuts through all the noise, a metric that shows your actual muscle development, regardless of whether you're carrying extra fat or feeling bloated or lean. It's called fat-free mass index and most lifters haven't heard of it, but once you understand your FFMI, it changes how you think about progress, goal setting and whether you should be cutting or bulking. Today we're exploring the muscle metric that might be more important than anything else you're currently tracking.

Philip Pape: 0:51

Welcome to wits and weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip pape, and today we're going to talk about a number that could reframe how you view your physique progress. Picture this you're looking in the mirror after a training session, after a workout, your pump's gone, the lighting's bad. You're questioning whether all these months of consistent training have actually built any muscle. Or maybe you're carrying around some extra body fat and you're wondering if there's muscle underneath that is worth revealing. This is a mental game when it comes to physique versus body fat versus muscle in the context of our training and it happens to all of us because we're often tracking the wrong things or failing to track things that will better validate what we're trying to measure. Scale weight fluctuates daily. Body fat measurements are inconsistent and only part of the equation. Progress photos are also highly subjective and they depend on lighting and angles. But there is a metric that cuts through a lot of this and can show you something more fundamental how much muscle you've actually built relative to your frame.

Philip Pape: 2:04

Now, before we get into this metric, this FFMI metric, I want to share a message from Matt in Physique University. He says Philip Pape's amazing. You've got questions about health. He's got answers. It's not diet and exercise, but also the mental side of losing weight. I've recently been dealing with more stress than normal and we figured out a way. The membership is a no brainer for anyone on the fence. He will help you in any way he can. Thanks for everything, philip.

Philip Pape: 2:30

So I'm sharing more of these testimonials directly from folks in Physique University, so you get a sense of what we have in there, right, because it's not just about information and education like on the podcast, it is. How do we implement that? How do we personalize it? What specific ideas can we come up with to help you look like you, lift and deal with stress and increase your metabolism and find a flexible way to eat so you no longer feel restricted, and all of those things? So if you want access to the tools in there that also help you calculate and track your FFMI that we're going to talk about today, alongside other key metrics that matter for building muscle For example, our muscle gain efficiency tracker, or our body, our physique and biofeedback tracker all of that stuff and how to implement it, like Matt mentioned, head to witsandweightscom. Slash physique to join Physique University. We will help you. Take all of these tools, put them together to understand. This is what's actually happening and this is what I need to do now. All right, so let's talk about FFMI and why it is such a game changer, why I'm focusing on this more now, why I added it to our Physique Tracker in Physique University.

Philip Pape: 3:41

It stands for Fat-free mass index. It is your lean body mass. It is everything that is not fat divided by your height squared. So it's a simple formula. There are adjusted versions of that for gender and for extreme heights and all of that, but very simple. It is a way to normalize your muscularity for your height. So if you think of your muscles, your bones, your organs, your water, all of that structural stuff that makes up your body is your lean mass, and so it looks at that because it's not your fat mass, so it's independent of how much body fat you have and normalizes it for your height, and that's what makes this powerful. Ffmi is completely independent of your body fat percentage, and we're going to talk about why that's helpful and why that's important. Because whether you're 10% body fat, super lean, or you're 25 or 30 or 40% body fat, you have a little extra body fat maybe to lose. Your FFMI is going to stay the same as long as your muscle mass stays the same, so it gets rid of the variable of body fat for this analysis, which is helpful, for in a lot of ways, this means it can show you something that most other metrics cannot your actual muscular development, separated from everything else. That is the power behind it. Now, why this changes everything about progress and how you view and track it, as well as your goals.

Philip Pape: 5:06

I'm going to give you a couple scenarios. Right, that happen all the time. I see this with our students. Scenario one let's say you're a guy who's been lifting for a year. You're sitting at 20% body fat. You're feeling a little bit soft. That's maybe a little bit more than you want. Maybe you're 25% body fat. You're wondering if you should cut or keep bulking. And some of you are wondering like, well, why wouldn't you just cut at that point? Well, a lot of you guys care about your strength, you care about building muscle, you understand the value of eating enough and sleeping enough and training hard and getting PRs, and you don't want to sacrifice that just for the sake of leanness. So you go ahead and you calculate your FFmi and it's 19.5. Well, that tells you that underneath the layer of fat you've built a recreational level of muscle mass. Right, there's a bit of muscle there, maybe more than somebody who is skinny, fat or hasn't trained at all, and you just need to reveal it. So that's one scenario.

Philip Pape: 6:00

Scenario two maybe you're lean, maybe you're 12% body fat and again, I'm using males here for the body fat. You can add about eight to 10% of that for females. So you're lean, 12% body fat. People say, hey, you look good but you feel kind of small. You're FFMI, you calculate it and it's 17. Okay, now that's kind of skinny or skinny fat, right, it depends. And again, we don't care about the fat for this calculation, but that's may what it presents itself as. And now you understand, okay, that's why I kind of feel kind of small and not very muscular, despite being lean, despite being in a low body fat. You just haven't built much muscle yet, right? Those are two common scenarios.

Philip Pape: 6:38

I guess a third one that just comes to mind, and I've seen this as well, as guys who've been lifting or men who've been lift, women, I'm sorry who've been lifting for, let's say, three to five years or longer, and they're carrying a lot of extra weight on their frame because they really never have gone through a fat loss phase. But the FFMI can tell them hey, I actually do have a lot of muscle under there and I just have to reveal it. So it's kind of similar to the first scenario. And then, if so, if you're like skinny fat, right, cutting anymore is not going to change anything, you're just going to get skinnier, fatter, or just, you know, skinnier, without any definition. Same training experience, different scenarios here, different next steps.

Philip Pape: 7:18

When you think about FFMI, independent of fat, so what it means is is as follows. I'm actually going to go through the different FFMI levels and what they mean. And, by the way, one of the inspirations for this episode was a recent Jeff Nippard YouTube video about, natty or not, how FFMI is often used as a cutoff, like if you're over 25, you're on drugs, if not, you're not, and there's some truth to that. But that's kind of where it came from. For practical, everyday purposes, my audience you guys listening and our students in physique you, you know, don't care about that distinction. They care more about how. What do I need to do next? What do I need to focus on? How muscular am I? Is this important? So there are different tables that we have for comparing men to men and women to women, but I'm just going to go with the male side of things. And then for women, it tends to be less because women carry more body fat and less muscle, and it is what it is right, but we do have comparison tables for both.

Philip Pape: 8:16

So if you're around 17, 18 FFMI, this is the low end. This is the beginner territory. This might be the lean guy who looks okay in clothes but then feels small, or the higher body fat guy who's just starting to build a base. So a lot of us in our forties, fifties, who are just we're kind of sedentary most of our life and hadn't lifted or are detrained and have some extra body fat, still don't have much muscle right now. So that's 17 or 18 FFMI. Then we get up to 19 to 20. You're a recreational lifter at that point and, by the way, the FFMI is a kind of narrow range. I mean we're talking 17 to like 24. For the vast majority of people that's a small range of numbers. I almost wish when they came up with this they were able to, you know, scale it up so it has more resolution. But it is what it is.

Philip Pape: 9:00

So back to what we're talking about 19 or 20, recreational lifter. You have some noticeable muscle mass. If you're lean, people probably can tell hey, you're kind of fit, you lift. You know, maybe at the earlier stages not big and jack, but you lift. If you're carrying some fat on top of that, then there's something underneath that could be worth revealing, depending on how much fat you have to lose and how defined you want to look and all that.

Philip Pape: 9:24

Then we move up a little bit more 21 to 22. This is where you get into what I'll call a serious lifter. Somebody who has dedicated themselves for a bit maybe a year or more, maybe two years, doing it the right way, has developed some muscle. That is obvious, regardless of body fat levels. And I say that because obviously, if you have too much body fat it's going to be hard to tell, but even then, guys who have a lot of muscle can carry a lot of body fat and you can still tell they're muscular. You know they're not going to have six pack, but if they're wearing a shirt you can see the big traps, big shoulders, the back, the taper and all that stuff. Okay.

Philip Pape: 9:55

And then we get to 23 to 24 and I've been lifting now for officially, seriously, for about four years, four to five years, and I'm around 23. And honestly that I have a long way to go, but this is somebody who is getting along with their development as a natural lifter. It represents several years of consistent training and honestly, the difference between 20, 22, 23, 24 can be really big. So if you're, if you're 22 or 23, that you've, you've worked hard to build muscle and that's a lot of you out there. Be proud of that. To get to 24 is quite advanced and quite muscular, and then again 25 is kind of the peak. So 23 to 24 is years of consistent training. Maybe some solid genetics Again, I don't buy into that too much being a deal breaker for people.

Philip Pape: 10:46

And then we get to 25 and up and this is the natural ceiling based on decades of research on drug-free bodybuilders versus steroids. Most of us listening don't have to worry about that. If you're enhanced, great, you might then crack that ceiling, but it's not something we have to worry about. So hopefully this sets a good frame for where you want to be or where you are right now. And then for women, just shift these down about three to four points. What I just said. That's really all you have to do. So FFMI becomes very powerful for decisions.

Philip Pape: 11:15

Most people get caught up in kind of endlessly cutting and bulking, not knowing when they should do both. It's one of the most common questions I get when should I cut, when should I bulk? I've done episodes about that and even then there's not like a universal principle. But if I were to get as universal as I could, I think FFMI is a great metric for that. Now, because FFMI is independent of fat. If you have 40% body fat, even though you're super muscular, I'm probably going to say you need to lose some fat for health reasons, right, but those are kind of I'll call it the outliers or on the edge.

Philip Pape: 11:48

Usually, a lot of guys I work with, or even women who have a lot of weight to lose, it's not that they're carrying like this massive amount of muscle underneath with some exceptions, right, I do have clients that are like look, I have built muscle, I am muscular. I just don't know how to deal or dial in my nutrition. Okay, that makes sense. So if your FFMI is really low let's say 17 or 18 for a guy to me, no matter what, your priority should be to build muscle. Now, again, if you carry a lot of extra weight because we're trying to separate the two variables you can still build a lot of muscle while being in a slight deficit. Perhaps we just went over all of this when we talked about body recomp on a recent episode, as well as in the workshop we had, which you can still grab that replay. You can grab the plan. You can grab the nutrition plan, all the guidance on how to set up your next 12 weeks to body recomp that is available at livewitsandweightscom link in the show notes. But if you are on the low end of this scale, build muscle please. Unless you're very, very high body fat, I want you to build muscle and what that means is at least body recomp, but ideally in a surplus. You need more muscle mass before you worry about getting leaner to reveal the muscle Again, unless we're talking health reasons and then you're kind of doing both at the same time. If we move up the scale and your FFMI is pretty solid, let's say in the 21 to 22 range, then it's going to depend more on the body fat at that point, and cutting at that point to reveal what you have makes complete sense if you're not as lean as you want to be because you've done the hard work of building the muscle.

Philip Pape: 13:19

Hey, this is Philip, and before we continue I want to talk about cookware. We all love to make our own food. I love nonstick pans. The problem is I've avoided them for years because when they get scratched, when they get heated, they can release microplastics, pfas, small particles that can accumulate over time in the body and some studies have shown them to be linked to health issues. If you're optimizing your nutrition and making lots of food for you and your family at home. It doesn't make sense to compromise that with questionable cookware. So that's why I was interested when Chef's Foundry, who is sponsoring this episode, showed me their ceramic cookware. It's called the P600 and uses Swiss-engineered ceramic coating which has no Teflon, no PFAS, no plastic components, it is nonstick, it works on all stovetops, it goes straight into the oven. All the things you need if you're trying to cook a lot of your meals at home. Right now you can get the p600 at 50 off by going to witsandweightscom slash chef's foundry. You'll also get a bunch of accessories with that. There's a whole page that explains what you'll get for that discounted 50 off. Go to witsandweightscom slash chef's foundry or click the link in the show notes. All right, let's get back to the show Now.

Philip Pape: 14:32

Building muscle takes time and it takes longer than you think. It takes years, especially as you advance. I will say the first year is a huge step change for people who do it right. So you can definitely get a kind of a quick win in that first year or two, um, and then couple it with a fat loss phase to to reveal that. But then you're going to probably spend, you know, three to five years of consistent training to go from an 18 to like a 22 FFMI, which makes sense, cause, again, I'm, I'm around there 22, 23, and I've been lifting for four or five years. If you've been lifting for like 10 years and you've done it consistently and you have decent genetics, you're probably pushing 23, 24 at this point.

Philip Pape: 15:12

Right, and a lot of people are surprised by that because most people are not competitors. Most people are not posing and oiling up and, and you know, trying to be a bodybuilder on stage or get like 8% lean. But I have clients who are not competitors and when they do take the time to really lean out which, again, is an extreme thing it's not the best thing for your health. I'm just going to say that it's not the best. But getting super shredded, you end up looking like somebody who maybe can go on stage at least in an amateur competition, right? So it's, it's achievable is my point and my show Whits and Weights. The show is not about. It's not about physique for its own sake. The reason I care about all this is for the muscle side of things. But a lot of people have vanity goals. They have physique goals as well and they both align physique and health, as long as you are not pushing an extreme or doing it for very long.

Philip Pape: 16:04

So back to FFMI three to five years of consistent training to get to that 21, 22 range and compare that to how fast you can lose fat. You know, if you want to drop 8% of body fat, it takes about three to four months for most people. Yeah, you can drop five to 8% body fat in three to four months. I can help you do it. We do it all the time and I know a lot of you are like, yeah, but that's really what I want. But the time and I know a lot of you are like, yeah, but that's really what I want. But no, that's not what you want. You want to look and feel better, you want to be stronger, you want to be fitter, you want to have better health. That comes through building muscle and then losing fat is kind of the easy part and it actually gets easier when you build muscle. But fat-free mass index, depending on the number you are today, is going to help you understand the timeline you're operating on. So you have realistic expectations and we just did a survey of like 130 intakes in our what do you call it? In our Physique University. We did a survey of the intake assessments and found that the vast majority of people who join our program are looking to build muscle and lose fat and they understand the value of building muscle for all the things that are important as we get older. That's why I care about this.

Philip Pape: 17:12

Okay, now let's get a little nerdy here and look at the science and history behind these numbers, which I think are fascinating, and then stick around for the end when we're going to talk. We're going to tie this all together on really how to use them in terms of tracking and making progress and setting goals. So the landmark research on this comes from Khoury and colleagues back in 1995. They measured FFMI in natural bodybuilders versus steroid users. They found a clear cutoff that natural guys rarely, very, very rarely, exceed 25 FFMI, whereas enhanced athletes easily surpassed it. Now you could be enhanced and not above FMI if you're not genetically gifted, if you're not working consistently. I mean, a guy who's sedentary and takes drugs isn't gonna be a high FFMI, but if you are natural, you're definitely not gonna get above 25, 99.999% of the time is the point.

Philip Pape: 18:04

And what's fascinating is this research coincided with this transition period in bodybuilding. If you look at classic bodybuilders from the pre-steroid era guys like Steve Reeves and there's an asterisk on him Some people think, oh well, yeah, he had access to the earliest steroids before even the Soviets knew about it. I don't think so, but anyway, steve Reeves, john Grimmick, reg Park their FFMIs typically fell right around that 25 mark and then in the 1960s, steroids became widespread. Suddenly, we saw physiques that were off the charts of what we think of as an enhanced bodybuilder today, and the research at that time was a foundation for the natty or not movement. Okay, people then started to use FFMI calculations to analyze modern physiques and to call out impossible claims.

Philip Pape: 18:54

And even though I kind of my premise of this episode is you haven't heard of this or you're not using this metric, I do think that that's a true statement. With most people, they really don't know what this is. It's just social media and fitness influencers that are trying to talk about Natty or not. And okay, this guy has a 27 FFMI, he has to be on steroids, whatever. So when we talk about that limit of 25 for natural it's, it's based on a lot of data and, again, that Jeff Knippard video is really good at showing the clustering around that and we know from competitive natural bodybuilders versus the genetic elite who are natural, who've optimized everything and this is like the ceiling right. So I think it's helpful. That little tangent was helpful to talk about where this came from. Now let's get back to us. Why do we care?

Philip Pape: 19:45

I think once you know your fat-free mass index, your training focus can become clearer, because if you have a low FFMI, your job is to build muscle. Strength and muscle I should say they go hand in hand and this might mean you have to go into a bulking phase or maybe stop undercutting your nutrition, stop underfueling. It could be as simple as that that you're just under eating Women ladies this is often the issue Under eating food, under eating carbs, but men face this issue too. It could mean that you need to go into a bulking phase and prioritize that hard training and building your base, building your peak, and not worrying about getting a little bit of fat in the process, because that's going to come off fairly easily and the muscle has to be a priority and has to come first. Now, if you have a more solid FFMI you know somewhere over 20, but then you have higher body fat, well, that's a very enviable position to be.

Philip Pape: 20:37

We have a guy in our group I just thought about who was confused on this number because his FFMI was reasonably high but he carries extra body fat. He's like how can I be like an athlete? I'm like the athlete's underneath it. That's what it is. You've built muscle, which is cool. Like other people have a longer path because they haven't even built the muscle yet, and you're in the enviable position of having that muscle to reveal, and so a proper cut will transform your physique because there's actually something substantial underneath. Now, if you have a high FFMI because you've been training well, now you're playing a different game because your gains are going to be slower. You're closer to your genetic potential and it's more important to maintain what you have than try to aggressively push for more muscle. And you're more in the body recomp slash fat loss regime or you're really gonna have to dial it in with the surplus when you are trying to continue to build on top of that high level of muscle you already have.

Philip Pape: 21:34

Now, if we think about this in the context of our goals and the fitness industry, we've been conditioned to focus on body fat first, on body fat percentage, and I talk about it a lot. I talk about leanness. I talk about body composition, yes, but we put it first to an extreme where it's all about getting lean all the time and forgetting that leanness involves muscle as well. That body composition is two-sided, it's not just the leanness. So if you have like, let's say, 20 or 30 pounds to lose which is kind of a subjective statement, but you know what I mean A lot of times we do a fat loss phase first because of the psychological win.

Philip Pape: 22:14

It's like Dave Ramsey and his snowball effect. Anybody who ever followed him when it comes to debt in his you know the way he explains it is the logical thing to do would be to pay off your highest interest rate debt, but the psychological thing to do as a human might be to pay off your smallest debt. So you get rid of it, then your next one, then your next one. So I think of like people having a little extra weight being a little fluffy and they haven't really lifted. I get them lifting, but then we might do a fat loss phase fairly early just to get that psychological win, to get that leanness, even though there's not much muscle there. If anything, it could also help prove to yourself that you need to build muscle because, hey, I didn't quite get the physique I wanted yet, even though I've lost some of that fat and I get the value of building muscle. So that's my point of all this.

Philip Pape: 23:00

And I think the FFMI is another really solid metric to show us why the building muscle side is important. Because if you're a 150 pound guy at 15% body fat but you have an abysmally low FFMI of 16, cutting to 10% body fat's not going to create the physique you want. It's not going to do it. It's just going to make you look smaller, scrawnier, skinnier, weaker. That's it. You're going to be a smaller version of the same thing. Right, it's strength and muscle over skinniness. Because even if you want the physique we think of as, I guess, skinny, skinny, muscular, whatever you still have to have the muscle. That's really the point. You still have to have that, right?

Philip Pape: 23:38

This is also especially relevant for women who've been told to do all the cardio and to move and eat 1200 calories or a thousand or 800 or whatever. I'm going to do an episode very soon, I think next week, about those low calorie levels. Are they safe or not? What's the narrative around it? What should you be thinking of in the context of calorie intake, but I do think a lot of women are under eating and do so to try to get lean, but then they have a very low muscularity right, it's like 14, which is the equivalent of like a 16 or 17 for a man, and then you're not going to have that shape or the tone or the definition that you're looking for. You're just not. You've got to build the muscle. So the real power of FFMI comes from tracking it over time and watching it change, just like a lot of the other things we talk about During a proper muscle building phase. You should see FFMI gradually increasing.

Philip Pape: 24:33

In our 90-day body recomp workshop I walked through the tracker and I gave an example of a very conservative body recomp phase over three months. Okay, by body recomp again, I mean building muscle, losing fat at the same time Very conservative. Lost a tiny bit in the waist, you know, gained a little bit in the neck. This was for a male, but for women same thing could apply. You can use the hips as well and when you look at the numbers you notice that by just fueling yourself appropriately and not dieting, and you lose a tiny bit of fat and you gain a little bit of muscle, your FFMI starts to climb up, and that's a really good validation that even a short period of training effectively and fueling yourself pays off. It will pay off. So if you're afraid of gaining too much fat and you don't want to go bulk and go into a surplus, that's okay. You can body recomp. If you're afraid of restricting and trying to diet to lose fat, you don't have to do that either. You can body recomp. That's my point. So you know.

Philip Pape: 25:29

If you're in a cut, by the way, your FFMI should hold steady while your body fat drops. That is important to understand as well, because that tells us we're holding on to our lean mass, right, because it's just a function of lean mass, normalized by your height. So both of those should hold steady. They go hand in hand. Now, if your FFMI is dropping during a cut, then you are losing muscle, right? If it's increasing during a bulk, you're gaining. No, if it's not increasing during a bulk, then you're gaining mostly fat and not muscle. So again, it's just another way to objectively tell whether your training and nutrition are working, and it is a nice simple number to normalize against.

Philip Pape: 26:08

Now let's talk about the mental side. Let's talk about psychology. There's something very liberating about this number, about FFMI the more I've thought about this, because it separates your muscle development from your body composition and that means you can actually feel good about your progress. You have a win there, even when you're not at your leanest. Because people always ask how do I focus on other stuff when I'm gaining this extra fat? And one of the things I'll say is hey, have a couple sets of clothes one for when you're bulking, one for when you're leaning and wear your bigger clothes. That's one way to feel better. Great. Also, focus on the process of building strength. Also, focus on your measurements. But a lot of those are a little bit kind of buried in the weeds. If you have this one number FFMI you can and you just ignore everything else. It's kind of liberating in that you know are you building muscle or not, because that's the goal. That is the goal right. So you know, regardless of how much body fat you have.

Philip Pape: 27:03

Now the power lifter sitting at 22 FMI and 25 or 30% body fat, he's built impressive muscle mass. He's not fat, he's very strong with a layer of fat over the muscle. I think that's a very different mindset. There are guys that carry a lot of extra fat, but they have a lot of muscle under there. They're in a much healthier state than the average person who doesn't have that muscle. The skinny, fat guy who thinks he's in decent shape because he's not fat well, his 16 FFMI just shows that he is lacking one of the most important pieces of tissue on his body and has to build muscle. He doesn't have to lose weight anymore. He really doesn't.

Philip Pape: 27:40

So I think what really makes FFMI really transformative is how it changes the relationship with physique development. Most people are trapped in this reactive thinking you know, I feel fat, so I need to cut, or I feel small, so I need to bulk. But then they're making these decisions based on feelings, based on the mirror, not based on data. And you know how much I love data, know how much I love data. Ffmi gives you objective clarity and tells you whether your feelings match reality or whether you're focused on the wrong variable.

Philip Pape: 28:09

And it reveals that building an impressive physique is primarily about one thing accumulating muscle mass. Over time, it really is Everything else. Getting lean, looking bigger, feeling confident becomes much easier when you have substantial muscle mass to work with. I'm going to keep hammering that home time and again. And this changes how you approach training as well, because instead of hopping around and switching between programs and switching between cutting and bulking cycles based on how you feel that week, you develop a longer term perspective. You understand that building muscle is the foundation. Everything else is just revealing or optimizing what you've built.

Philip Pape: 28:52

And so here's the thing If you're listening to this podcast, have you been spending years spinning your wheels because you're trying to optimize body composition without enough muscle mass to optimize? Or even just you've been trying to lose weight? And now you realize it's about much more than that. Well, ffmi is a really good number to tell you which side of that equation needs your attention, all right. So FFMI fat-free mass index at the end of the day, it's just going to tell you reality and then you can act on it. You know whether you discover you have more muscle than you thought hiding under some fat.

Philip Pape: 29:40

No-transcript. And it's not about body fat percentage in and of itself. Right, because body fat percentage is tricky. It can be the same at different body weights because you have more or less muscle, and so the more muscle you have, the less you're concerned about body fat percentage, if that makes sense. Right, because you can be lean at a higher scale weight. We want to build that muscle mass first and then optimize how you present that muscle. That's the way I would put it.

Philip Pape: 30:10

Okay, so start tracking your FFMI. You can take the formula that I mentioned today, you can look it up or join us in Physique U. We have a way to track that automatically, based on your measurements, where it automatically gives you your lean mass, your fat mass, your muscle to fat ratio, your fat-free mass index, the comparison tables, all of that stuff, so you know what's happening over time, even if you're doing something very precise like body recomp. So if you wanna do that, join us in Physique U. If you wanna go straight to get the replay and the bonuses from the body recomp workshop, there's a special link for that. It's livewitsandweightscom and, by the way, you get another bonus in there, which is a free custom nutrition plan. So you'll have everything you need.

Philip Pape: 30:52

I gave it all away in that workshop. Go to livewitsandweightscom or click the link in the show notes and you're gonna get access to all of those tools, made clear on how to use them All made clear on how to use them All. Right, until next time. Keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember that building an impressive physique starts with understanding what you're working with. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. Talk to you next time.

5 Ways to Reverse Menopause Belly Fat (New Science) | Ep 365

Build muscle and lose fat (no dieting or bulking) with the 90-Day Body Recomp Workshop replay + bonuses (90-day week-by-week plan, custom nutrition plan, and training programs for 3, 4, and 5 days per week):
live.witsandweights.com

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You've been told that belly fat gain during midlife is inevitable... just part of aging and declining hormones that you have to accept.

Recent research from the landmark SWAN study that followed 308 women for 12 years reveals the truth: "menopause belly" isn't random aging.

It's a specific, predictable hormonal reshaping of where your body stores fat that begins 3 years before menopause and can be prevented and reversed.

Discover the exact timing windows when intervention works best, why some women don't experience this shift at all, and the science-backed strategies that can help you take control of your body composition during this transition... no matter where you are in the process.

Main Takeaways:

• Menopause belly is a measurable shift from protective fat storage (hips/thighs) to dangerous visceral fat around organs (not just general weight gain)

• Fat redistribution accelerates dramatically during the menopause transition but begins up to 3 years earlier

• You can prevent and reverse this fat redistribution

Episode Resources:

• 90-Day Body Recomp Workshop with replay and bonuses: live.witsandweights.com

• Chef's Foundry non-toxic ceramic cookware (50% off): witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry

Timestamps:

0:00 - The research on menopause belly fat
5:41 - Visceral vs. android vs. gynoid fat patterns
7:50 - When fat redistribution actually begins
9:33 - Biological mechanisms
12:59 - Individual differences
14:40 - 5 ways to reverse menopause belly fat
24:23 - Why this research is empowering for all women

How to Reverse Menopause Belly Fat with Science-Based Strategies

For decades, women have been told that gaining belly fat in midlife is just part of aging. The message has been that your metabolism slows, hormones shift, and there is nothing you can do about it. But new research shows that menopause belly is not just about getting older. It is a specific and predictable hormonal shift in how your body stores fat. Even more encouraging, this shift can be slowed, prevented, and even reversed with the right strategies.

What the Research Actually Shows

A major breakthrough came from the SWAN study, which followed hundreds of women across the menopause transition using precise body composition measurements. The findings revealed:

• Before menopause: Fat is stored mostly in the hips and thighs (the “gynoid” or pear-shaped pattern).

• During menopause transition: Fat storage shifts dramatically to the abdomen and upper body (the “android” or apple-shaped pattern).

• Acceleration: Visceral fat, the dangerous kind around your organs, increases by over 6 percent per year during this transition, which is much higher than before or after.

• After menopause: The rate of belly fat gain slows but does not stop, while protective hip and thigh fat may actually decrease.

This redistribution is not random, and it is not inevitable. It is driven by measurable biological mechanisms.

Why Belly Fat Increases During Menopause

Several key factors drive fat redistribution:

• Estrogen decline: Estrogen normally protects against visceral fat by directing storage under the skin. As it drops, fat moves inward around organs.

• FSH increase: Follicle stimulating hormone rises and independently promotes central fat gain.

• Mitochondrial decline: Estrogen supports cellular energy production. Its loss reduces metabolic efficiency.

• Inflammation loop: Visceral fat releases inflammatory molecules that promote even more fat storage.

• Muscle loss: Sarcopenia accelerates during menopause, lowering metabolic rate and compounding fat gain.

Why Timing Matters

The shift starts about three years before your final menstrual period, often in perimenopause, when cycles become irregular. This means women in their late thirties and forties may already be experiencing changes in fat distribution without realizing it. The earlier you address it, the easier it is to control, but even post-menopause, reversal is possible.

5 Science-Based Ways to Reverse Menopause Belly Fat

#1 - Strategic Nutrition

• Avoid extreme calorie cuts that accelerate muscle loss.

• Use moderate deficits (less than 500 calories) or pursue body recomposition.

• Prioritize protein to preserve lean mass and metabolism.

• Get enough fiber for satiety and gut health.

• Stay flexible and include foods you enjoy for sustainability.

#2 - Resistance Training

• Progressive overload with compound lifts is non-negotiable.

• Building muscle protects metabolism, burns fat more effectively, and shifts fat distribution away from the belly.

• Ab exercises are optional. The real driver is total lean mass.

#3 - Smart Movement and Cardio

• Daily walking (8,000 to 10,000 steps) reduces visceral fat and supports overall health.

• Avoid excessive high-intensity cardio, which raises stress hormones.

• Break up sedentary time by standing and moving for 2 minutes every half hour to improve insulin sensitivity and fat metabolism.

• Use short sprints or fun cardio occasionally for variety.

#4 - Lifestyle Optimization

• Sleep quality is critical. Poor sleep directly increases belly fat storage.

• Stress management reduces cortisol, which otherwise promotes abdominal fat.

• Build daily habits to lower chronic stress and protect recovery.

#5 - Targeted Support

• Creatine is a proven supplement for muscle, strength, and even cognitive support during menopause.

• Address individual nutrient deficiencies (magnesium, omega-3s, etc.) if identified.

• For some women, hormone replacement therapy may be appropriate under medical supervision.

Why This Matters Beyond Aesthetics

Belly fat can feel frustrating from a physique standpoint. It is also a major health risk. Visceral fat is strongly linked to cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, and inflammation. By targeting the causes of menopause belly, you are not just reshaping your midsection, you are protecting your long-term health.

Menopause belly fat is not inevitable. It is driven by predictable hormonal shifts that can be mitigated with nutrition, training, lifestyle changes, and smart support. The earlier you start, the easier it is to prevent, but even after menopause, you can reverse fat gain and improve body composition.

Every woman has the power to change her trajectory. By focusing on the fundamentals such as protein, resistance training, daily movement, quality sleep, and stress reduction, you will not only look better but set yourself up for decades of better health.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You've been told that belly fat gain during midlife is just part of aging, that it's inevitable that your metabolism is shot and there's nothing you can do about it. But what if I told you that's not the whole story? Recent research found that menopause belly isn't just about getting older. It's a specific hormonal reshaping of where your body stores fat, one that begins years before menopause and accelerates during the transition. But the same research reveals the exact timing windows when intervention works best, plus some insights about why some women don't experience this shift at all. Today we'll break down the science behind what's really happening to your body during menopause and the specific strategies that can not only prevent but actually reverse central fat gain.

Philip Pape: 1:00

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're gonna break down recent research that changes everything we thought we knew about menopause and fat gain the frustrating shift from storing fat in your hips and thighs to your belly, your abdomen. This is not random, it is not just aging and it's definitely not inevitable. This episode is gonna arm you with science-based strategies to take control of your body composition during the menopause transition, no matter where you are in the process, whether you are in your 20s and it hasn't come, if you're in perimenopause, if you're close to menopause or you're past. It doesn't matter the how today is going to work for you, either to prevent or reverse what we talk about, but it's important to understand the why. So let's start doing that, and before I do, I want to share something that Kate sent me.

Philip Pape: 1:55

Kate is one of our students in Wits and Weights Physique University and she said I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape at Wits and Weights. I've been listening to his podcast for about a year now and they're great, thoughtful, straightforward and useful information related to strength training and nutrition. In a world filled with conflicting advice, philip really cuts through all of it. I actually liked the info so much that I joined Physique University and have been in it for several months. Since then, I've learned more about structuring my own workout programs, become way more consistent with my exercise and have let go of a lot of baggage about how I eat. I'm still on my health and fitness journey, but I really appreciate the tools Philip has given me to keep going, and I love that, because that is what we're about on this show, we're cutting through the noise, we're giving you practical tools that work and then, if you choose, to get the accelerator of support and community, we have that for you as well.

Philip Pape: 2:50

And related to that, we had a workshop last week and I want to mention this because it's relevant today. We had a 90 day body recomp workshop and, just like Kate was talking about, with tools and community and all that, we talked about how to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, and why I'm mentioning that now is that when it comes to menopause belly, when it comes to women in peri and post menopause, I understand that there are fears with gaining fat by building muscle and fears with restricting and dieting and binging and all those issues when going in a calorie deficit. So there is a middle ground that you can accomplish and you can do it very effectively. We held a workshop on this. The workshop is done, but the replay is available, as are all the bonuses, and the bonuses include a complete, mapped out 90 day plan for body recomp, a free custom nutrition plan, training programs whether you work out three, four or five days a week at a gym at home doesn't matter your level everything you need. If you go to livewitsandweightscom or click in the show notes, you can grab all of that the replay and all the bonuses and get the support in Physique University, get your entire first month included all of that for $27. So if you're interested, livewitsandweightscom and those principles that we taught in that workshop apply perfectly to what we are discussing today, and so let's do that.

Philip Pape: 4:07

Let me start with what might be the most important finding in menopause research in years, and it's about four years old now, 2021. Dr Greil Greendale and her team followed 308 women for 12 years as part of the often talked about SWAN study, and I think this study is referenced with a lot of the Ozempic research as well. It's the study of women's health across the nation, and they didn't just track weight, they also tracked body composition. I believe they use research grade, consistently performed DEXA scans, which is very common in research, to see where fat was being stored, and what they found was, I'll say, remarkable on one hand, but probably not surprising to a lot of you out there. A lot of you women, whether you're in past or not yet in menopause, you're aware of this, and that is the dreaded menopause belly. It isn't just women are getting older and gaining weight everywhere and thus have menopause.

Philip Pape: 4:59

Belly. It is a specific, measurable shift in how your body stores fat, in your fat distribution. Before menopause, women are storing fat primarily in what researchers call the gynoid pattern, that is, hips, thighs, butt Think pear-shaped. And then during the menopause transition, fat storage shifts rather dramatically to the android pattern that is abdomen and upper body think apple shape. So go from gynoid, which is pear shape, to android, which is apple shape, and the numbers are really mind-blowing because the change pre and post menopause is vastly different.

Philip Pape: 5:41

Visceral fat that is, the dangerous fat around your organs, that that is representing this belly fat we're all concerned about. It increased before menopause but only in small amounts. Then, during the transition, it accelerated to 6.2% a year. That's a lot, that's a huge change, a little bit of an increase to a massive increase every year. And then android fat showed a dramatic change where pre-menopause it increased by 1.2% a year. And then android fat showed a dramatic change where premenopause had increased by 1.2% a year, during the transition by 5.5% a year.

Philip Pape: 6:11

And this isn't just about appearance, even though that might be the source of the frustration. Visceral fat right, the belly fat around the organs is strongly linked to cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, systemic inflammation. So we're talking about a fundamental change in health risk, and I love that improving your physique can also improve your health. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, to me, that's very efficient. Everything we talk about on the show will effectively hit all the check marks of longevity, health, strength, physique fitness, function and, yes, how you look. It's beautiful, it works together. So let's talk more about that transition and when this starts, because there's confusion there.

Philip Pape: 6:59

Most women think menopause belly begins when menopause begins, which is technically when your periods have stopped for about a year, and the research shows that the fat redistribution begins earlier than that, actually three years before your final menstrual period, which is about two years before the start of menopause. Let's say so. Let's just call it three years, right? So if you're in perimenopause right now, which is generally in your forties, for some women it's early, as early as their late thirties, the phase when your cycles become irregular but you haven't stopped completely, or when the hormones are starting to decline this process has already begun. It's begun right, and I know it's begun because I talk to women every day and there's students in our physique university who are in their forties. You know they're not really that close to menopause yet, and yet they're seeing some of the challenges Some are, some aren't right Like.

Philip Pape: 7:50

It's very individual and this, this understanding about timing, is really important because it opens up a larger window of intervention that most women don't know exist, where, by the time you realize what's happening, you know you've already gone through the most effective prevention period. I'll call it. That will make it easier when you get to that point. Having said that, now is the best time to start. When you're listening to my podcast, when we talk about fitness and training and nutrition, you can't get in a time machine and go back in time, and why would you wait to improve your health? So now is always the best time. So it almost doesn't matter that you have this intervention window, but if you're 25 right now, or you're 35 or 40 or whatever, now's the best time to start anyway, and just know that it's going to benefit you tremendously down the road.

Philip Pape: 8:38

So we fast forward to menopause. Post-menopause, what happens? Well, the acceleration that happened during the transition actually slows down. So the menopause transition itself is a vast pool of accelerating fat gain and fat redistribution, and that's why it's so tough for so many women, right, I get it Like the research is telling us this is what is happening. The visceral fat will continue to rise even after menopause, but it slows down to about one and a half percent a year. Android fat slows to about one percent. Gynoid fat, which is the protective fat in your hips and thighs Also, that actually might begin to decline. So that's not great either, right? Your protective fat declines about one percent a year. So you're watching your body transform from a protective fat storage distribution to a risky fat storage if you don't do something about it, and if you haven't and you're already menopause, fear not, you can reverse it. We're going to get into that.

Philip Pape: 9:33

So let's talk about the biological mechanisms here, because understanding the why helps us develop the how. And the main drivers here are Well, there's several drivers. The first couple are hormone-related. So estrogen that is the biggest driver of all. Estrogen declined during menopause because estrogen has a protective effect on fat storage and preferentially directs fat to subcutaneous sites on your body, under the skin rather than around your organs. And when estrogen drops, you lose that protective mechanism. But estrogen is not the only player here. We also have FSH, follicle stimulating hormone that goes up during menopause, and research shows that this is independently associated with central adiposity right Belly fat gain as its own factor. Your body is getting hit with both issues from estrogen dropping, fsh increasing.

Philip Pape: 10:28

Then we have the mitochondrial component. You know, mitochondria is like the power plants of your cells. Well, estrogen helps maintain the efficiency of mitochondria and because it declines, your mitochondrial function declines as well, which then affects your metabolic rate. It reduces your metabolism and it makes fat storage more likely. And then we have inflammation, the big boogeyman of inflammation. But in this case we're actually talking about inflammatory markers like IL-6 and TNF-alpha. These are cytokines that are released by visceral fat. Visceral fat is metabolically active, so it increases your inflammation, and then this creates a feedback loop where that fat storage promotes more inflammation, which then promotes more fat storage. And then we understand why there are so many challenges at this time of life. By the way, I did a whole episode on inflammation not long ago, talking about the biggest factors which have to do with lifestyle and how inflammation is misunderstood. But there is true inflammation going on at the cellular level that can be caused by lifestyle factors that we're also going to talk about today anyway. And then, finally, we have muscle loss. Muscle loss accelerates during menopause, something we hit on a lot on this show. Sarcopenia is what it's called. Sarcopenia further reduces your metabolic rate as well and then creates an environment where fat gain becomes increasingly likely.

Philip Pape: 11:47

Hey, this is Philip, and before we continue, I want to talk about cookware. We all love to make our own food. I love nonstick pans. The problem is I've avoided them for years because when they get scratched, when they get heated, they can release microplastics, pfas small particles that can accumulate over time in the body, and some studies have shown them to be linked to health issues. If you're optimizing your nutrition and making lots of food for you and your family at home, it doesn't make sense to compromise that with questionable cookware. So that's why I was interested when Chef's Foundry, who is sponsoring this episode, showed me their ceramic cookware. It's called the P600 and uses Swiss-engineered ceramic coating which has no Teflon, no PFAS, no plastic components. It is nonstick, it works on all stovetops, it goes straight into the oven All the things you need if you're trying to cook a lot of your meals at home. Right now you can get the P600 at 50% off by going to witsandweightscom slash chefsfoundry. You'll also get a bunch of accessories with that. There's a whole page that explains what you'll get for that discounted 50% off. Go to witsandweightscom slash chefs foundry or click the link in the show notes. All right, let's get back to the show Now.

Philip Pape: 12:59

Before we continue, I do want to mention that there are big individual differences when it comes to menopause and fat redistribution. So don't assume that you're going to be right in the middle of the population, because there are a lot of genetic differences, for example ethnic differences. You know white and black women have similar patterns of central fat gain, but for example, japanese women in the study had no increase in visceral or android fat. Instead, their gynoid fat decreased. So there could be genetics, cultural factors, dietary patterns that also influence fat redistribution, and these are kind of confounding the research. So it's very difficult to tease all these things apart, and you know Japanese populations have very unique lifestyle factors and there could be something there that's genetics. Then there's also the timing that we've been talking about, where the researchers could predict fat distribution changes based on proximity to the final menstrual period with very high accuracy, and so this suggests the process itself is more controlled and predictable than we might have thought before.

Philip Pape: 14:05

And then the last thing I want to mention here is the research is probably explaining why some women seem to have no issues, they kind of sail through menopause, minimal body composition changes. They're like what are you people talking about? It's fine. And others are struggling massively, like significantly right. And it's not just genetics, it's definitely not willpower. There are measurable biological processes at work that potentially are the differences between some of these women, and a lot of it has to do with lifestyle and things that they did earlier in their life. So again, not that we can go in a time machine, we can't.

Philip Pape: 14:40

So if we have this understanding, what can you do about this right now to either prevent, if you're young enough, or reverse menopause, belly fat? So let's start with nutrition. Your approach has to be, I'll say, strategic and not necessarily aggressive, right? Let's not be impatient and say, okay, I'm going to lop off the belly fat. How do I do it, philip, let's do it. I like your excitement, but we have to be strategic, right?

Philip Pape: 15:05

Severe calorie restriction, for example, is not strategic. It can actually do make things worse. It can accelerate your muscle loss, it can worsen the decline in your metabolism. So that's the first thing I mentioned is if you're trying to lose fat in general and you know you need a calorie deficit to do it. This is where, for menopausal women, or if you're trying to, you know, if you're in perimenopause going, getting close to the transition very reasonable deficits are a good way to go right.

Philip Pape: 15:31

We're talking probably less than 500 calorie deficits, and this is where flexible eating then becomes your best friend, because you don't have to eliminate food groups, you don't have to follow restrictive meal plans. That is not what we're about. You track your calories, you're tracking your macros and micros and your fiber and you hit your targets. You hit your protein targets, you hit your fiber targets. You fill the rest of the foods with things that you enjoy that are mostly whole foods, but not always and make it sustainable so that you can go out and have fun with the ladies on Saturday night. Right, have fun at the birthday party, eat your cake, it doesn't matter. We want a sustainable, long-term approach that prevents the all or nothing mentality that I see derailing so many women.

Philip Pape: 16:14

Protein becomes really critical for women for everybody, but women especially because of the need to protect that lean mass during weight loss or even just during this transition, and to maintain your metabolism, and the protein can come from a lot of places. Right, I get a lot of questions about well, I don't eat this, so how do I get my protein? I'm like there's a lot of foods with protein yes, meat products, animal products, chicken, dairy, lean meats, seafood. There's soy-based products for plant eaters. There's protein powder. There's a million ways to get your protein during this transition, and I would focus on whole foods most of the time, but don't stress about it. I like an 80-20 approach, aiming for nutrient-dense choices 80% of the time, maybe 90% of the time, depending on how many calories you have to play with, leaving room for foods you enjoy. And that's really it.

Philip Pape: 17:07

Now I've done other episodes that go way into all the nutrition science, into macros, all of that stuff. We covered all that on the workshop and exactly how to calculate that stuff. So, again, go to livewitsandweightscom if you want to grab the replay and the guide and all that good stuff is going to help you out. But when it comes to nutrition, having a reasonable deficit or not even being in a deficit and going for body recomp and making sure to prioritize protein and fiber and flexibility are going to go a long way. So that's nutrition Training.

Philip Pape: 17:37

You guys know resistance training is non-negotiable. If you don't know that, I'm telling you it now. This is your most effective tool to prevent sarcopenia and to maintain your metabolic rate. And, ultimately, building muscle is the thing that's going to help you lose fat and lose that belly. It just is. I'm not talking about doing ab work, although that can be a tiny, marginally bit helpful right in helping those muscles pop and creating more definition. I'm talking about building muscle in general and how fit it makes you and how much a fat burner it makes you, so that the losing fat piece is easy. It also shifts the distribution of your fat. It also helps reduce fat going to your belly. So, focusing on progressive overload using compound movements, squats, deadlifts, pressing rows, all of those things Training sufficiently with challenging weights, with enough frequency. And then cardio let's stop doing all the excessive cardio. The F45s, the Peloton, the CrossFit style cardio Walking should be the foundation.

Philip Pape: 18:36

You know, 8,000 to 10,000 steps is perfectly reasonable. More than that is fine. It's low stress, it's sustainable, it's excellent for health and fat loss. Another hack I have for you is move throughout the day. Don't sit around for longer than half an hour at any one time. Get up every half hour and walk for two minutes. I did a whole episode on how tremendously that increases your muscle protein synthesis, your insulin sensitivity, reduces your visceral fat storage, et cetera, et cetera. It's tremendously beneficial. So if you are being sedentary, even though you lift weights, even though you walk occasionally or even get enough steps, but you're being sedentary the rest of the day, not being sedentary can be tremendously beneficial for your belly fat, believe it or not. And then any other cardio should be very, very strategic. I'm a big fan of anabolic sprinting once or twice a week and that's it. That's it. I have a lot of resources on this. I'm not going to go into great detail, but the point is you can lose fat. You can lose belly fat. You can build muscle with very little.

Philip Pape: 19:28

What we think of as traditional cardio Basically a lot of walking, not being sedentary, and then maybe some sprinting or fun cardio here and there. Not being sedentary, and then maybe some sprinting or fun cardio here and there. A lot of the fat distribution is going to be controlled through your diet, maintaining a healthy weight and body fat. Do not fall into the trap of thinking you need to just exercise more, eat less. Exercise more, eat less. Has that worked for you in the past? That's all I'm going to say. Has that worked for you? And I mean the recent past? Right, I don't have to talk about all the negatives from excessive cardio, but it's going to make you more stressed and that's going to interfere with recovery and stress.

Philip Pape: 20:01

Stress is one of the biggest causes of visceral fat storage. And that brings me to lifestyle factors, right? Sleep quality. Honestly, if I had to put something at the very top besides lifting weights, it'd be sleep quality. Not just the amount of sleep, but sleep quality, consistent bedtimes and wake times. Lifting weights, it would be sleep quality. Not just the amount of sleep, but sleep quality. Consistent bedtimes and waketimes, good pre-bed rituals, not having blue lights too close to bed, because poor sleep, for sure we know, worsens fat around the organs, it worsens belly fat. When they've compared two groups, one that was sleep deprived versus one that had enough sleep, the sleep deprived group gained a lot more belly fat period. So, even if you're doing all the other things, if sleep is really bad and if you have a stressful job, a stressful life, stressful finances, stressful whatever, if you can work on getting those things out of your life improving those things right.

Philip Pape: 20:47

I saw a post by somebody in another group I'm in. He said he has a three-hour round-trip commute and 10 hour work days. So so I can only train two days, and the response was well you, you basically need to find another job Like that's the best thing you could do right now. Don't, don't worry about when to train. That's the 1%. The 99% is this job is killing you. So think about the things you can control. Stretch management is tied into that, right. Chronic, chronically elevated cortisol is going to directly promote abdominal fat storage period.

Philip Pape: 21:18

Now, when we talk about supplementation, the only thing I'm going to mention today for that is creatine. I think there's a benefit to trying creatine, seeing if you respond to it from a training perspective, but also for the potential cognitive benefits, especially during menopause. Now, there are other things people might recommend during menopause, like, hey, are you taking magnesium? Do you have enough fish oil? Do you have any deficiencies you need to address? For some women, adaptogens are helpful, like ashwagandha, right, but those are all very specific and very personalized, and, again, they're the 1%. I think creatine, though, can be very helpful, and high dose creatine I think I might do a whole episode about it Could also help cognitive function and relate to these things as well.

Philip Pape: 21:54

And then hormone replacement therapy. We got to mention it, hrt, bioidentical hormone replacement. It wasn't included in the SWAN study, but that is, of course, a big variable for some women. If you are deficient in your certain types of hormones and you've done all the other lifestyle factors, this is something you got to consult with your healthcare provider on, but that could be a game changer, whether it's thyroid, progesterone, estrogen, whatever. So I kind of mentioned before this.

Philip Pape: 22:20

This isn't just about vanity or fitting into clothes, even though the menopause belly phenomenon starts from that for many of you. This is a fundamental shift in your health risk as well. I think it's important to glom onto that and understand that visceral fat accumulation increases heart disease, diabetes risk, mortality. All of that Understanding the mechanisms and timing that we've talked about today. It empowers you, it gives you the power. You don't have to accept an inevitable decline. It's really about strategically intervening as soon as you can. Research shows us that fat redistribution can absolutely be slowed, stopped and reversed with targeted approaches, and that is proper training, proper nutrition that is not restrictive, that is more nourishing and fueling you, building muscle, moving, walking, not having too much stress and getting good sleep. It's all of guess what the pillars that we should be doing anyway, and that is actually quite empowering, because that means pretty much everybody listening to this podcast.

Philip Pape: 23:20

If you can do those things, those strategies, and stick to them consistently, you're going to have massively improved results over the general population and even over where you would have been a year from now. So you've got to start now. You've got to start as early as you can which by definition is now and then be consistent and focus on those fundamentals that drive the biggest changes and not getting lost in the little optimization details or supplements or detox cleanses or any of that nonsense in the fitness industry. And we can help you. We can help you do that if you just listen and apply the information in this podcast. Or the one factor that increases commitment and achievement by 50% is having accountability. Join us in Physique University. One of the best ways to do that is go grab our body recomp workshop and bonuses that we did by going to livewitsandweightscom, because that'll get you right into a method and step-by-step process that you can start to apply to do exactly what we're talking about today and focus on the thing that you might be missing right now, and I'm excited for you.

Philip Pape: 24:23

I'm excited about this research. I'm excited that we are learning that the conversation around menopause and belly fat and everything has shifted. I think for decades, women have been told that weight gain and body shape changes are just part of aging. They're just hormones. They're just what happens. Deal with it, accept it, focus on other things, and the research itself shows us this is wrong.

Philip Pape: 24:44

The menopause transition does create specific, measurable changes in fat storage that we can predict, we can prevent, we can reverse. And cultural factors, dietary patterns, genetics, lifestyle they all affect this, and one of the things you have the most control over is your lifestyle and your nutrition. So every woman listening has agency in this process. You are not at the mercy of hormones. You are not destined for a decline in your metabolism. You have tools, you have the timing, you have the science to guide your decisions. So, just to recap, what does work to prevent and reverse menopause? Belly Strategic nutrition focused on having enough energy, fuel, protein, fiber, with lots of flexibility and not doing anything too extreme. Consistent resistance training to preserve and build muscle mass, lifestyle factors that optimize your hormones. And inflammation, like getting a sufficient quality sleep, eliminating stressors from your life, reducing your perceived stress and being active in general right, going for those walks, not being sedentary throughout the day the women who take control of their body composition that way during this transition. They don't just look better, they do, by the way, they look great, but they don't just look better. They are altering their health trajectory for the future.

Philip Pape: 25:58

All right, if you're a new listener dealing with these exact challenges, here's what I want you to do right now. I want you to open up your podcast app, scroll down to the review section if you're using Apple, and tell us your story. How did you find this show? What has been your biggest struggle with body composition during this phase of life? Give us a five-star review that tells us what you're struggling with or how the show has helped you, and that's going to help other women discover these strategies that actually work and I personally read every single one. I love to give shout outs on the show, please. I'd be so grateful if you leave a five-star review today. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember that menopause isn't the end of your physique goals. It's the beginning of a new chapter where you get to rewrite the rules. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights.

Can Your DNA Predict How Fast You'll Build Muscle and Lose Fat? (Joe Cohen) | Ep 364

Join Physique University (free for 2 weeks) to engineer your best physique using our science-based fat loss and muscle-building blueprint

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Why can two people follow the same diet and training plan but get completely different results? Could your DNA explain why fat loss feels harder, or why recovery takes longer? And is genetic testing the breakthrough it claims to be or just another fitness gimmick?

With me is Joe Cohen, founder and CEO of SelfDecode, to separate the science from the scams. Joe shares what your genes can actually tell you about building muscle, losing fat, and preventing disease, and where the industry is misleading you. We also dig into how combining genetic data with lab work creates actionable steps you can measure and adjust over time.

Tune in to discover whether your DNA could be the missing piece in your fitness journey.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 – Intro
2:17 – Why most DNA health tests fail
6:44 – Marketing hype vs real science
9:59 – Moving beyond the fitness basics
12:01 – Diseases genetics can predict well
16:38 – Universal habits vs targeted actions
18:15 – How SelfDecode prioritizes recommendations
22:43 – Genes and training insights
27:22 – Pathways and functional genetics
31:17 – Combining genetics with lab work
38:07 – Joe’s story of food intolerance
45:45 – Where to learn more about SelfDecode

Episode resources:

• Website: SelfDecode.com

• Instagram: @mrbiohacker 

• Facebook: @selfdecode 

• X: @SelfDecode 

Can Your Genetics Really Predict Fat Loss and Muscle Gain?

If you’ve ever wondered why some people seem to build muscle easily or drop fat faster than others, the answer may partly be in their DNA. But while genetics influence everything from your recovery capacity to fat storage tendencies, the consumer DNA industry is filled with oversimplifications and outright misinformation. The reality is more nuanced than “you have this gene, so you need this diet.”

Understanding how your genes affect training and nutrition requires separating science from hype. Genetics can provide insights into risks and tendencies, but those insights need to be validated, contextualized, and combined with lifestyle data before they become actionable.

The Problem With Most DNA Fitness Tests

Many DNA companies sell the idea that one or two “magic” genes dictate how you respond to exercise or diet. They’ll claim you’re a “carb burner” or that you need to train a certain way based on a handful of SNPs (single-nucleotide polymorphisms).

The problem is that most traits, including muscle gain and fat loss, are polygenic—influenced by thousands, sometimes millions, of genetic variants. Looking at a few SNPs in isolation cannot accurately predict outcomes. At best, these simplistic reports exaggerate small effects. At worst, they mislead people into unnecessary restrictions or wasted supplements.

What Genetics Can Actually Tell You

When done properly, genetic analysis can provide useful insights into:

• Disease risk – Conditions like cardiovascular disease, prostate cancer, and type 2 diabetes are strongly influenced by genetics, and polygenic risk scoring can help identify higher probabilities.

• Nutrient needs – Some variants affect vitamin metabolism (like MTHFR and folate), influencing whether supplementation could be helpful.

• Pathway tendencies – Genes involved in methylation, detox, or inflammation may highlight where you are more sensitive and where lifestyle interventions could matter most.

• Response tendencies – VO₂ max, recovery capacity, or susceptibility to injury may be partially influenced by genetics, though training adaptation still requires experimentation.

Lifestyle Still Reigns Supreme

Even with clear genetic risk, lifestyle often dictates when or if problems develop. For example:

• Someone with high cardiovascular genetic risk may avoid disease for decades with exercise, good nutrition, and stress management.

• A person predisposed to higher body fat storage can still maintain a lean physique with consistent training and dietary awareness.

Your genes might set the stage, but your daily habits determine how the play unfolds.

Where Genetics Fits Into Training and Nutrition

For physique goals, genetic data should be treated as one layer of personalization, not the foundation. The hierarchy still starts with proven fundamentals:

• Strength training

• Adequate protein

• Sufficient sleep

• Stress management

• Balanced nutrition

Once those are in place, genetic insights can act as nudges. For instance, if your profile suggests you metabolize vitamin C poorly, supplementing might help. If your labs plus genetics show elevated inflammation risk, prioritizing anti-inflammatory foods and training recovery becomes even more important.

The Role of Data Beyond DNA

Because genes don’t change, the most powerful use of DNA testing is combining it with lab work and lifestyle tracking. You can see if your actual biomarkers (cholesterol, blood sugar, hormones) align with your genetic risks, then act accordingly. More importantly, you can re-test labs after making changes to see if your interventions worked.

This creates a feedback loop where genetics give you tendencies, labs show your current reality, and lifestyle changes move the needle.

The Takeaway

Genetics will not hand you a perfect workout plan or tell you exactly which foods to eat. But when interpreted properly, they can help prioritize risks, guide smarter supplementation, and provide extra motivation to double down on lifestyle basics. The real win comes from combining DNA data with blood work and consistent tracking to make informed, personalized choices—while ignoring the hype that one gene explains it all.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been following the same training and nutrition advice as everyone else, but getting wildly different results, your genetics might hold the answer. But here's what most people don't realize your DNA doesn't just influence whether you'll be good at sports or prone to certain diseases. It might reveal how your body responds to specific macros, how it recovers from training, and whether you're predisposed to store fat or build muscle more efficiently. My guest today has analyzed over two and a half million genetic variants for more than 200,000 people. He's going to reveal what your genetic blueprint might tell you about optimizing your physique. You'll discover the specific genes that may influence your body's response to training and nutrition, learn how to interpret genetic data without falling for overhyped marketing, and find out whether personalized health based on your DNA is the next revolution in health science.

Philip Pape: 0:59

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are going to examine whether your genetic code can unlock better results from your training and nutrition. My guest today is Joe Cohen, founder and CEO of SelfDecode, a DNA and biomarker-based health platform that uses AI to deliver personalized health insights. Joe has spent years battling brain fog, inflammation and fatigue through self-experimentation, and he claims to have optimized over 400 lab markers. His platform has analyzed genetic data for over 200,000 people and he currently takes 170 supplements daily based on his genetic profile. Today, you're gonna learn which variants might influence muscle building and fat loss, how to identify legitimate genetic insights for marketing hype, and whether personalized nutrition based on your DNA can give you an edge in achieving your physique goals. Joe, thanks so much for coming on the show. My man.

Joe Cohen: 1:55

Hey, thanks for having me.

Philip Pape: 1:57

So I want to start talking about the industry first and then drill down to the specifics here. I think you've said that most of the DNA health companies and I know there are a lot out there I get pitched all the time to be on my show that they're essentially scams, I think, is the word you've used, and I want to understand what makes that the case and what differentiates what people should be looking for from those companies.

Joe Cohen: 2:17

Yeah, so genetics is a very complex thing and typically most things that we have are what's called polygenic, which means there's a variety of genes that are related to it, variety of pathways or variety of genes, and there's different ways of looking at genetics, but essentially what has been found is that typically there's millions of variants that contribute to a condition or any trait. Typically, if it's intelligence, it's not just you don't have, like an intelligence gene or a variant, it's typically there's many, many variants that are related to it. And you know some of these things are not fully decoded, but you know that what we do know is that there's a millions of variants that, or thousands or hundreds of thousands that are typically related to these polygenic traits. Some things are just very specific variants like, for example, lactose intolerance. It could be one, two, three, a couple variants related to that, but most things are actually quite polygenic, which means that there's a lot of genes that are related to it.

Joe Cohen: 3:25

Polygenic, which means that there's a lot of genes that are related to it. That means is if you're looking at you know a hundred SNPs or variants, then you're not going to be able to tell or predict something that is related to millions of variants or hundreds of thousands, it's just there's not enough information, and so what these companies typically do is they'll look at one variant and they'll tell you you have a high risk for this, or you're like this, or you need this or you need that. They make broad conclusions based on specific variants and what they're doing is they're treating it like almost like a lab test. Like you get your LDL cholesterol tested, you have this gene. Now you got to treat this gene and do this, that and the other thing, whatever, right, like. The problem is that you have 200 million SNPs, so you're not going to like you've got these. There could be 20,000 SNPs that make you more likely for something and 10,000 that make you less, and you kind of have to figure out what's the based on all that information. What is the total likelihood, like how likely are you to get this condition? And it's not yes or no. It's, like you know, are you in the 80th, 90th percentile? Is your risk of getting the condition? Maybe in a population, it's 1% of people who are whatever have a condition, and even if you're five times the risk, then you're 5% right. So it's not like, it's not just yes or no. Do you have this right, and so there's different kinds of genetics.

Joe Cohen: 4:56

When you want to predict stuff, the only way to do it is through polygenic risk scoring, and then you get okay, so we'll just focus on this for a second, this polygenic risk scoring, and then you get okay, so we'll just focus on this for a second. This polygenic risk scoring area. There are some companies very few that do polygenic risk scoring for consumers, but then the problem is is that if you, they don't actually do legit polygenic risk scoring, meaning they might just look at multiple variants, but then they're not doing it legitimately. They might look at two, three, five, sometimes 30, whatever, but they don't. If it's not like legitimate approach, then it's not. You know it's not very good. Now, even if they did look at many, whatever they're looking at, you want to validate that you're able to predict something.

Joe Cohen: 5:41

Genetics is about prediction, right that? A lot of genetics is about prediction. You get a test because you want to try to predict something in the future, or you want to try to predict anything, maybe what supplement you'll do well with, or whatever. So if you're trying to predict some kind of condition or some kind of tendency and these things have many genes. It's not just enough to say that you came up with an algorithm that can combine many thousands of variants or whatever, and use AI and machine learning and give you a result. You actually have to validate it and that's why, even with these LLMs like ChatGPT, they have this war with each other where each of them. But at the end of the day, there's some kind of standard that they test against and then they kind of compare each to each other how good are they at reasoning and different kinds of things, different areas, and so the same thing should happen in genetics, but it's not. It for consumer genetics, it's just the wild west where you know. You just say, like whoever has the best marketing is essentially winning the race.

Joe Cohen: 6:44

Yeah, because the you know a guy like who's not an expert, many, basically anybody who has a podcast about this, about anything, is not an expert in genetics. Typically right, and you could get on a podcast whether it's andrew uberman or even peter attia, and the guy they don't really know, peter attia already, like, he did recommend self-decode, but he he wasn't fully understanding, he didn't fully under understand genetics and he just kind of knew that you do need to look at more variants. He just didn't really dig himself deeply into it enough. But he said, based on what I could figure out, self-decode seems like the best one. Right, yeah, and he was pretty honest about that. But the idea is that he doesn't know, uberman doesn't know.

Joe Cohen: 7:29

You take like any top health influencer, they don't know. And Uberman was once kind of promoting InsideTracker, which has they don't have good genetics software, right, it's just not valid, it's not accurate, it's not valid, it's not good. I think InsideTracker has moved a little bit away from genetics, but I'm just giving you an example of somebody like Uberman who's not going to understand. He's a neuroscientist, it's a completely different science and it's not something like you could just have a PhD, even in nutrigenomics, and understand this kind of polygenic risk scoring it's.

Joe Cohen: 8:08

You need to be a bioinformatician, genetics, statistical genetics. It's kind of like a different field. And so what we see is that people who don't know what they're doing in the health space trying to get into genetics and the result is garbage into genetics and the result is garbage. And but some of these people are skilled marketers, like the 10X people. There's some other people, right, like they're good at sales. Grant Cardone doesn't know the first thing about anything related to science, but he's a good salesman, so he doesn't need to know. It's, you know, same with Gary Brekker doesn't know anything about genetics, but he's a great salesman and he can, like you know, look at somebody talking about hydrogen water and be able to formulate some sentences that sound good, but he doesn't know anything about genetics. Yet he's selling a genetic test as if this guy's the expert in genetics.

Philip Pape: 9:02

Yeah, I'll tell you what you're preaching to a big choir here, because the tagline of this podcast is skeptics of the fitness industry. You don't even have to get into AI, informatics, genetics, to see that kind of extrapolation from data, to make wild conclusions and fearmonger things right, because it goes viral, it gets clicks, it gets attention Exactly and you see so much misinformation. That's why I wanted to have you on. I've had a few other folks in this space on and I understand it's like a very emerging field and what you just said like garbage in, garbage out. If the data is not actionable, not only can you not do anything with it, it's useless, but I think it could also lead to, you know, unintentional actions and fears and, oh my God, I'm at risk for this thing and, like you said, it's 500% higher risk, but that's relative to a 0.1% risk in the population, so it's all relative. I think all of that's important, which is why I wanted to start there, because then the question is okay.

Philip Pape: 9:59

If people are like I've optimized for my system in my life, my fitness system, the basics, I'm training, I'm eating my protein, I'm moving around and I'm doing things like that and I'm tracking right, we talk about tracking all your lifestyle metrics, the things that you can easily do with a smartphone, and they want to go to that next level. That's where I think some of these interesting avenues like genetics come in. I've personally had tests done and you're right. Sometimes they will just take a single snip and say, okay, you're a carb burner and I'm like what is this Like? You know, how does that help me and is it even accurate and how do we trust that information? So, for the purposes of this audience who's concerned about optimizing their biology and optimizing their health and lifestyle, Can you, as the owner of Self2Code and your platform, say with some reasonable level of confidence that certain variants influence specific things that we can act upon, like your recovery or how you train or what you eat?

Joe Cohen: 10:58

To be very honest, I could go through it, but fitness is probably you could do. Okay, so you can make actions. For everything related to genetics there's always something you could do, meaning like it's giving you information and if you have good genetic software, then it'll give you good information, but it's not going to tell you exactly which exercise you need to do. If you need to do more forearm, you need to do more forearm training. It's not going to tell you.

Philip Pape: 11:31

That would be incredible. Just have a robot tell you everything you need to do. Yeah, Right.

Joe Cohen: 11:36

It's not going to tell you if you need to stretch five minutes instead of ten. It can't get that exact. So you've got to understand what it can or cannot tell you. In general, though, the predictions you got to understand. There's also a hierarchy. It's not necessarily something's wrong or right. There's a hierarchy of how accurate something is, depending on the topic.

Joe Cohen: 12:01

When governments spend billions of dollars to build up databases, disease databases, and they, you know to predict things, they make these databases available so that companies and academics can actually train their models on diseases, and so diseases in genetics you can actually predict reasonably well, because there's been a lot of money pumped into it. There hasn't been a lot of money pumped into it. There hasn't been a lot of money pumped into how much you know, like in the nutrition stuff as much. So it doesn't mean that it's wrong. It just means that it's not as accurate as the disease stuff. And even with disease stuff, there's things that are just going to be more genetic and things that are going to be less genetic. Prostate cancer and cardiovascular disease are pretty genetic, and it's also very predictable Whether you're going to get prostate cancer, cardiovascular these are type 2 diabetes, also very predictable. So there's like a lot of this there's about you know. I would say there's about 150 conditions that we can predict reasonably well that if you have high risk, you probably want to do something about it. There's some change you're going to want to make. That is one way to look at genetics, where you look at a total risk. So I think it's a good idea to go through the different kinds of genetics because it's not just one thing. There's the polygenic risk scoring genetics, which is useful in the sense of if you want to know what you're at high risk for, and typically there's ways to reduce the risk.

Joe Cohen: 13:34

Whether it's prostate cancer or anything Cardiovascular, there's always hundreds of things you could do to reduce your risk if you know exactly what you need to prevent. So you know, just for prostate cancer, for example, tomatoes and lycopene that helps prevent prostate cancer. It's one thing. There's many things Green tea, different things, there's some supplements, like there's a whole bunch of different things you could do potentially to prevent prostate cancer. I wouldn't say that these things are a treatment.

Joe Cohen: 14:01

If you have prostate cancer, you take lycopene, your prostate cancer is going to go away. It doesn't really work like that right, but for prevention it makes more sense, like I wouldn't say if I had prostate cancer I'm not going to be, like, well, I'm going to eat tomatoes and it's going to go away. But if you're eating tomatoes over many, many years and you're taking supplements, then it can push that off for like 20, 40 years, right, like enough so that it's not relevant, because you could live to 100, 120, whatever the technology we have at that point is, and it's not going to be as relevant. So you want to push it off as much as you can. You know, and none of the nutrition and supplement stuff are going to make you live past 120. I think 120 is something that maybe you can get to with all the latest and greatest supplements and drugs and lifestyle stuff, but then after that it's kind of just like we need to replace your limbs and shit Cyborg.

Philip Pape: 14:55

Exactly.

Joe Cohen: 14:57

So, but that's one thing that genetics can do. It can help predict diseases pretty well.

Philip Pape: 15:02

Yeah, yeah. No, let's compartmentalize here, because early on your first answer you were talking about the polygenic nature of some of these and how sometimes it's hundreds, if not thousands, of genes that come together, maybe millions, whatever. And I remember reading recently they discovered all the genes that comprise stuttering, whether somebody stutters, and it was like 40 something genes that they identified.

Joe Cohen: 15:23

That makes sense. Right, that makes sense. I mean at least yeah.

Philip Pape: 15:31

Yeah, yeah, where. But then I also have heard, like for Alzheimer's risk, there are those that there's like one snip or two snips that can give you a big indicator. No, it's not true, right.

Joe Cohen: 15:37

Millions yeah.

Philip Pape: 15:38

Exactly so that that's where the misinformation is. And then, when you mentioned lifestyle and you mentioned the tomatoes for prostate cancer, my mind always goes to the hierarchy of things you do in your lifestyle. In other words, you wouldn't want somebody to say, well, the answer is the tomatoes, more like that is going to nudge things in the right direction, but you still should be doing other things. I also think there's something every human should be doing, no matter what, for healthy lifestyle that probably also reduce the risk of all of these things. That makes sense, like strength training, you know, muscle centric medicine is, I know, a hot topic term today mental health, right.

Philip Pape: 16:14

I read about the link between depression and diseases of, or dementia related. You know, alzheimer's and age related dementia, right? And so there's like a cascade of connections between these things as well. Where am I going with all this is, how do we get people to know what they should do, no matter what, versus how they should target in on the things that are most important to them and then make these changes, like eating more tomatoes.

Joe Cohen: 16:38

Well, I think the things that they, first of all, I think people need like motivation. There's some things. We will tell you that strength training or some kind of aerobic exercise associated with lower risk of prostate cancer or whatever, it is right and that does repeat itself a lot. So there are certain things that everybody knows and sometimes people don't do, but you might sometimes need some more motivation to understand why exactly you need to do this right. When it comes to these recommendations, like you said, you're going to be at risk for, let's say, 20 different conditions or whatever. Right, you're not going to take a supplement for every condition, necessarily, but what we can do is we look at all these conditions, all your umbrella tests, and we can tell you like a best fit, this thing is going to help you with the most things that you have, issues, with the most risks that you have, including. You're also able to put in symptoms, conditions and goals. We could take all that into account and then we give you the whole list. For whatever we recommend, we say here's all the reasons why you should take it. So it gives you a very clear rationale about all the reasons you should take it, with the references. So I don't think all because you have a high risk for one condition that you need to take every supplement to prevent that condition. But it should nudge you in the right way. And then the question is okay, well, you need to be nudged in different ways based on all these different information, and so you need software to put that all together for you and tell you what you should be taking. What's the most important thing for you? That's going to help with the most of the things and the most important things.

Joe Cohen: 18:15

So that's kind of how we make recommendations. It's by nudging things higher up on the priority list. So if you have a specific variant, it'll nudge it up a little bit for a certain condition. And then, if you have a specific variant, it'll nudge it up a little bit for a certain condition, and then if you have a risk for that condition, it'll nudge it up in the list. If it's a serious condition, it'll nudge it more. It goes on like that. And then if you have a symptom, condition or goal, it'll nudge it up significantly more if it helps with that.

Joe Cohen: 18:44

And then, once you see, it'll see the whole like whoa, okay, this thing helps with all these different things my labs and this and it gives you a much bigger picture. It lets you see, wow, okay, now I see why I need to take this. Not because some guru told me, necessarily you know to do this and you could also see for certain things that everybody knows they should be doing Exercise. You could see all the different reasons why you should and typically we actually, if someone says they exercise already, we hide these kinds of recommendations because they get pissed when they see exercise as a recommendation. They're like I already know I need to. You know I already do it, yeah.

Philip Pape: 19:23

No, I like that. That's the essence of personalization. I think the word personalization gets overused in the industry and people are like, yeah, we personalize the program to you.

Philip Pape: 19:31

Give us your age, your height, your demographics and we'll give you a template and what you're doing is you're, you're you're personalizing the output based on collecting all this data, letting you know using power, assists and tools, of course, to interpret it and then linking it to what you've validated is worth going after. So my question, then is I think you personally take a ton of supplements have we validated that the supplements themselves or these recommendations will actually do the thing? Is the data just as strong behind those behavior and supplement type recommendations as the genetic root cause is? Does that make sense? Is it validated as well?

Joe Cohen: 20:08

We validated the prediction, as it's a good prediction in terms of it can predict these kinds of conditions in the future, meaning it's predicting that you have a high risk, so not everybody's going to get it. It's still a probability. Again, it's depending on how healthy you live and all these other factors. But the genetic part we know is true in the sense you have a high genetic risk. So we're clear about that. That's been validated.

Joe Cohen: 20:33

The other stuff, like does this recommendation work? We can't. It's very hard to validate that because what we can show you is all the rationale as to why it's being recommended, which is what we do, and then you can choose if you want to take it or not. You can't validate something we're recommending is going to prevent. It's already validated that there's studies showing that something helps with prevent prostate cancer. So we're not doing the validation for that, or at least there's studies related to that. But what we're doing is we're just putting that information together for you so that you can then make a decision. Does this thing make sense for me, given all this information, and then you could either do it or not. Right, so it's I wouldn't say that. That's you know. Like, yeah, you can't really validate that per se. But that's why we give you the all the rationale, so that you can make an intelligent decision and be like, okay, I think this makes sense, or not.

Philip Pape: 21:31

No, it makes perfect sense, man, and I'm just clarifying for the listeners they understand. There's like different systems being put together here, right, there's the genetic analysis and then there's okay, we have epidemiology, we have maybe random controlled trials and maybe we have a bunch of rat studies or whatever. Behind all the other information we think we know about the supplementation, the lifestyle changes and whatnot, because that's another area rife for misinformation, I'm sure you agree it's like. So. Then if you do recommend all of these things let's say it's a ton of different supplementation does it reconcile interactions and dosing and all of that to make sure that the totality makes sense?

Joe Cohen: 22:11

Yeah, I mean it does give you dosing, standard dosing. It doesn't change the dosing based on it just because there's too many unknowns there, but it just tells you what is the best thing for, like it prioritizes what's the most important thing for you, what are the most important things? And then you could keep going down the list and see like okay, so here's my top 10, top 15, top 20. You can just keep going down and see what makes sense for you to do cool.

Philip Pape: 22:43

And going back to the genetic variations I know you mentioned, it's very hard, it's very infrequent that you're going to have like one gene that's going to affect a clear outcome. There's something called the speed gene, I think ACTN3, I was looking up just some genes to ask you about and this is one has to do with fast twitch muscle fibers. Um, I like, if you take that example right, how actionable is something like that? Like if you know for a fact, because there are certain things I've seen with other services, they'll say, okay, you're a morning person versus a night person, so you need to go to bed earlier or later. Or you know you burn carbs better than you burn fat, so and I'm always skeptical of those conclusions so what are your thoughts on that?

Joe Cohen: 23:21

I don't personally know what to do with the fast Twitch fiber one like what are you going to do with that information?

Philip Pape: 23:28

I mean I don't know, yeah, I don't know, higher reps versus lower reps.

Joe Cohen: 23:32

I have no idea I don't think I would train. That's what I'm saying. Like there's specific things.

Tony: 23:37

Like I don't think you're going to figure out higher reps versus lower reps based on your genetics you just got to train and figure it out right, because that's the advice I would give is you're going to figure it out when you train yeah, yeah, what you could do is like, let's say, it could tell you what your natural vo2 max tendency is and then it could give you ways to improve your vo2 max and and some of those improvements could be genetic based.

Joe Cohen: 24:03

So then there is specific variants that if we know that you already have an issue and we could say we can make it. Sometimes there are studies that show that if you have this predisposition or if you do this when you have high LDL cholesterol, it'll bring down your cholesterol more if you take this drug or this supplement or something like that. So there are studies done like that and we put that in the software. Also, there's other things that If we see a supplement works in a certain pathway, we will say that this thing can help. You have this pathway that is high risk and this thing could help with that. Or, for example, if we see you have a predisposition for lower vitamin C and vitamin C is related to some condition like low vitamin C, we could say that put it up higher on the list and say, because you have this predisposition, so that's all explained. So there's kind of like the macro picture which I think is important for genetics. You want to see what you're at risk for. And then there's like going into the details where sometimes you might change up a recommendation for something, like you might try something else first. You know like acne could be from like 20 different causes. So this is an example. You know, my girlfriend had some acne and I I gave her some general stuff and that helped, but not completely. And then we were trying different things and we I was actually waiting for a genetic test because I thought that would help to see if it's actually genetic or not. Turns out it's not and she said nobody in her family has it, so it's, it's like something that's not genetic with her. And I also saw it wasn't. Like I was already suspecting that it was hormonal, but we didn't have the data for it. Now we see that it's not genetic and it actually doesn't, and the doctor told her he thought it was hormonal as well, like she does have higher testosterone levels for a girl. So, for example, you know that that could be a reason why a girl has acne right, or it could be from many, many other reasons, different kinds of acne. But this is an example where also genetics can sometimes help you figure out. Like, hey, if it is genetic, then there's other things to do about it, right? If it's not genetic, if it's more environmental, because you just have some elevated hormone, then there's going to be other things. If it's genetic, it usually means there's multiple biochemical pathways at work and you kind of need to do a bunch of things, but then when you do that it will help. If it's an environmental thing, it's usually something very specific that's causing it. Just be a specific hormone. It could be a specific thing. Then if you do other things, it's just not going to help as much because you just didn't do the exact thing that you needed to do. So that also is a method where you could use genetics to help. And then I would say that there is a functional way to use genetics as well, and I want to get into that. The functional way is you're looking at so we do have this approach, for example.

Joe Cohen: 27:22

Okay, so we look at pathways. For example, we have a methylation, detox pathway, histamine pathway and what we do there. I think it's reasonably good actually. So what we do there is we will look at all the genes in a given pathway. So methylation, so we're already narrowing down to something specific. You take one of the main genes with methylation. So there's about 30 different genes in methylation. We see how does it relate. We make a diagram. We see all the different SNPs within a gene and any time like if overall you have risk in a gene, it will light up red so you could see the pathway as a whole. And then we give recommendations based on the pathway as a whole and I think that could be useful in. You do need like a provider sometimes or you need to be a nerd to like really read, but I do think the pathways when we're designing it sometimes we don't know exactly like like I don't know how my results are going to be, but when I like plug it in, I'm like pretty good in terms of the recommendations and showing what are all the things in the path, like things I wouldn't be able to figure out if not seeing a diagram. So we have the pathway reports.

Joe Cohen: 28:33

Unfortunately, the other companies do not do a comprehensive job at these pathway reports and so again it falls short with what they're doing. Even within this approach they're not doing a good job. And then there's like the Gary Brekka DNA company kind of approach where they're looking at like five SNPs, the DNA company, 83 SNPs and they're trying to make very broad conclusions based on you know you. Basically the whole 10x health report is if you have mthfr or not. The other stuff is just not significant enough. It's like do you have mthfr, yes or no, and we will test it. Like you can get that from any dna test pretty much, but they're just overcharging you for it. Like you can do our test for 600 bucks, get you know thousands of reports and all this kind of advanced tech, or you could do theirs for 600 bucks and you just get MTHFR. So it's like and in ours you'll get MTHFR as well.

Joe Cohen: 29:36

That's what I mean by it's a scam in in the sense that they're really like mthfr is an important gene. Everybody should know it if they have like these variants. But it's just kind of like over emphasis on one gene. Right, there's many other important genes and and, like you said, apo e is important. You should know what braca is important. These are things. These are important genes, not saying not. But the problem is that, first of all, if you don't have ApoE, you could still have high risk for Alzheimer's and if you do have ApoE, you can have low risk. You really have to look at many of the genes, right. So that's where the problem comes in. When you try to look at specific genes, even the most significant ones out there, it's still not going to give you an accurate prediction. And but now, when you get to the functional ones, when you exclude MTHFR, the functional ones are usually much less predictive of anything.

Philip Pape: 30:31

And yet the functional ones, like you said. That really got my, you know nerd brain going as an engineer of like imagining a dashboard up on a, you know, in a control room right when you see the chain of events and you see the feedback loop and everything connected and you're trying to identify that chain of events genetically and where things are hung up or at high risk. Are you able to, like you mentioned, the methylation pathway? Are you able to combine that with then, say, blood work, lab work, Because I've heard you talk on other shows about you know, it's not just genetics, we also have a whole health side of the marker analysis. Combine those to also do a before and after when you make a change, because that's the other thing I'm wondering about is, okay, you've done these things, how do you get an after? Because your genes don't change? So what does change and can you measure that? So that's what comes to mind for me right now.

Joe Cohen: 31:17

Yeah, you can do blood tests on everything. So what we do is, any time we have a report, let's say, if I have high risk for cardiovascular disease, right, we will tell you all the different blood tests that are related to cardiovascular disease and then you can upload it. You buy the test, you upload it. Whether it's from us or not, it doesn't matter. You get the test, you upload it and then we can tell you which ones are increasing your risk, which ones are decreasing your risk, and so then you could focus and we tell you each one how to reduce the risk for the marker. So once you know that you're at high risk for cardiovascular disease, first of all, some people maybe would want to start taking statins. We'll tell you. We have a pharmacogenomics report to see.

Joe Cohen: 32:01

Are you going to get muscle pain from statins? For me it says I do get muscle pain and I just you know I'm an experimenter, so I'm like, let me see, I'm going to see. Most people I don't think want to do that. Right, they're not going to do what I'm doing, just to experiment for the science purpose. But I took it and I got very severe muscle pain. Interesting and also, yeah, so there's kind of like you know there's like the pharmacogenomics part of it which is pretty good. So you could see that if you do have specific variants, pharmacogenomics is typically of a specific variant. You're going to do worse or better with a drug. That does have an influence. I'm not saying not. The problem with some of the supplements are sometimes there's studies. A lot of times there's not. But even then it's not going to say to take a drug or not. If you just get your pharmacogenomics report, you still need to see are you at risk for the condition? Right, like? You have to see a lot more information. So you really need a very robust, comprehensive platform. But yeah, so let's say someone has cardiovascular disease.

Joe Cohen: 33:07

If you also have, you could have the risk from genetics, but you might have low cholesterol. I mean, you're still high risk. It's actually what they the recent study found in you know top journal that we didn't publish this one. But we have our own studies that we publish on our results, which shows that we have the best results when we benchmark it. But this study was just showing that cardiovascular disease in genetics, if you have a high polygenic risk score for cardiovascular, it's actually more important than pretty much any other risk factor that you can have Blood pressure cholesterol. It's actually more important than pretty much any other risk factor that you can have Blood pressure cholesterol. It's like pretty much tied with like blood pressure, which is pretty huge, so, but it's more important than cholesterol, than high cholesterol or any of these other markers that you might have, even like inflammation.

Joe Cohen: 33:55

Just when they look at all the different things, you have a high polygenic risk score. It just comes to the top. This is the most significant thing in terms of risk. Now, what you can do under that circumstance is make sure all the other markers are low risk and also do certain things that prevent cardiovascular disease in general. There's a whole bunch of stuff you could do, and so that's what I did. I just make sure I do have a high risk of coronary artery disease in my genetics and I just make sure that I've got low risk in all of the labs that are related to cardiovascular disease. So I can see that it's changing, that the labs get better. It's high risk. Then it goes to low risk, right, and so you can change these things.

Philip Pape: 34:39

Yeah, man, I get so many questions. I could talk to you for hours, to be honest, because I'm like what do I focus in on?

Tony: 34:45

My name is Tony. I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Wits and Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 35:28

Cardiovascular disease. We talk about that a lot in the show in the context of obesity, lifestyle and also how age-related disease has evolved over humanity's existence. Right, Like at one point we didn't see any of these diseases, and even things like type two diabetes we used to call it adult onset and now it's in children, right, Because of lifestyle. And so that brings up the question of epigenetics. Like if you went to Homo sapiens 20,000 years ago and did a genetic test, would they have a risk of cardiovascular disease still? Or has that been bred into us via more recent modern man's lifestyle? You know what I mean. Like those questions come to mind no, they always.

Joe Cohen: 36:05

They always had. The risk was always there. The genetic risks are always there and and not people could die from a heart heart disease, even if they live a very natural lifestyle true, yes it's, even if they live a very healthy lifestyle.

Joe Cohen: 36:20

And then the question is how long you're going to? You're going to die from heart disease at some age, no matter what Right, maybe if you live to a hundred, maybe if it's 90, some people 35, right Like if they're very young. So you know, living like an unhealthy lifestyle could make someone get heart disease at 70 or 60 instead of 90 or 80. But what I'm saying is that now, so if you don't have genetic risk, you'll still get heart disease. But the question is when. And if you have a high genetic risk, it's going to be 20 years earlier, let's say to be 20 years earlier. Let's say and so if you have a high genetic risk and you don't eat healthy, you can get a heart.

Philip Pape: 37:08

Like people were dying from heart disease all the time, like earlier ages and then you know, throughout history, yeah, yeah, no, it makes sense. What you're saying makes sense in terms of the risk versus when you would get it and whether it's inevitable. And we see a correlation, right with lifestyle and obesity and that going up because of the reason you said is you're accelerating the process. So another one related to this comes up is autoimmune conditions. Pat, a lot of clients have had different autoimmune conditions, from lupus to rheumatoid arthritis to you know undifferentiated things that they show up in their lab work, right, they have the antibodies for it. They may or may not have the diagnosis and there are obviously different medications and there's what do you call it biologics today, like Dupixan and things like that, that can deal with those. But one of the recommendations for certain autoimmune conditions is elimination diets because there's something that is triggering, right, the inflammation in your food. How does that fit into all of this in terms of you know, the recommendations? Does that make sense?

Joe Cohen: 38:07

I might be. Yeah, so I might be the only person in the world, definitely the only person I know I've heard of. I used to be on a carnivore diet. I could only eat meat. If I ate anything else, I get like brain fog, pains, like fibromyalgia, just everything. Every random issue would just my body would just start going, you know hey, if you had an apple, like it would be a problem.

Joe Cohen: 38:30

Yeah, if you just yeah, if I ate an apple, I get like, start getting like tired, like, oh, I can't think, I don't know what's going on. My brain slows down. You know, like I get a food coma from an apple, literally, and I get bloated and like it's like, wow, you ate an apple and now I'm bloated. I can't think Unmotivated. I'm like, you know, it's as if I, it's as if maybe someone else ate like a heavy pasta, huge heavy pasta.

Philip Pape: 39:02

And then you, you know, and they're like, oh, like you get a little, you know how you get a little brain like oh yeah, or drink wine, like when I drink wine, or something like that. Yeah, same thing yeah.

Joe Cohen: 39:10

So it was like I would eat an apple and that would happen, right, I'd be like what the fuck's going now? If I eat something else, like a bread, I'd be out for days. So I basically just at a certain point, I figured out in 2013 already that I need to go on this diet that doesn't have any. It's just meat and chicken, beef, chicken and really clean salmon, and that's it. That's all I ate. Wild Alaskan frozen salmon crazy. I should warm it up and like no spices, nothing like, just very plain, just beef, and I would just, yeah, I would melt down from everything.

Joe Cohen: 39:53

Uh, now I can eat anything bread, gluten, everything, literally everything and the way I did that was reverse all my food sensitivities. It was actually somewhat gradual, but it was also pretty like there was things that I figured out. Oh, I got to do this and then it just made a huge difference and now I could just eat anything. So we were talking about like so number one is in my results come up that have a high risk of food sensitivities and also food allergies, but what we see is that I also reversed it. So I had it from a young age already. I remember as long as I can remember I would get tired from eating, like bread or any kind of you know any carbohydrates. And then now I don't. Now I could eat anything cheese, dairy milk, whatever you name it. It doesn't matter if it's A2, a1, a, this gluten, whatever. It doesn't make a difference.

Philip Pape: 40:52

That's a big business.

Joe Cohen: 40:52

right there there's a lot of people who have issues with food and I noticed that everybody has some issues with food and it's more of a problem that as you get older you lose tolerance to foods and it's also how much. There's also a degree of like. If you have a reaction 10 percent or 20 percent or 100 percent you just get, like you know, out of commission. 20% or 100%, you just get out of commission. Two people could have a food coma. One gets maybe 5% tired but they're still able to work and do whatever. The other person gets slammed the whole day. They can't function. And you see that even people who are like beasts they eat a pasta in the morning A lot of them are just like fucked, so they don't do that. They'll just kind of like. A lot of people will do intermittent fasting because they kind of know they'll eat something, but it slows them down. Food is not supposed to slow you down.

Philip Pape: 41:49

Yeah, so they work around it by either starting to restrict or to strict a timing.

Joe Cohen: 41:53

Yeah, and so. But if you're, if you know how to do it and again, like the only way I figured it out was with precision health then you could fix all these things, and same with any kind of issue. There's a way to fix all these things. It's just a question of do you know the right way to do it? And unfortunately, you know charlatans are taking it over by saying we're going to test five snips and tell you everything you need to know. Like you know, if you got anxiety, you got heart to MTHFR. Let me explain to you. It's like this is your whole world. You're like whoa, I can do this test.

Philip Pape: 42:33

It sounds so simple, doesn't it?

Joe Cohen: 42:35

Right. So simple it's. Just let me tell you something. It's MTHFR. It's so simple it's just. Let me tell you something. It's MTHFR. It's the secret. We do have all these functional reports. By the way, One of the things we did was we just replicated every one of these other companies, so that if you're like curious, oh, I want this 10X report, we're like, let's make this better so that it's not complete shit, and then call it something else 100X, whatever. I get it, man.

Philip Pape: 43:05

So wait before we get off the food thing because I know we're almost out of time is just give me one example of how one of the foods you were intolerant to, how you overcame that. Now I'm really curious about that.

Joe Cohen: 43:19

So for me, with food, intolerance is not one reason why you're intolerant to food, and it's very kind of. I would say that I figured things out over time over, but there was a very big acceleration. So I figured things out from 15 years ago already, but there was a very big acceleration in the past couple of years because of how intelligent the software and just precision health has become like more accessible to blood tests, better software. So in the past three and a half years think about it like this I reduced the food sensitivities. But it was at a point where my diet was like I could eat vegetables and fruits and so it was like, okay, I'm not just eating meat and beef, right, like I'll eat. And then I was kind of eating some fruit, nuts and seeds sometimes. But then I just figured out one thing at a time boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, just.

Joe Cohen: 44:18

And like each thing I figured out I was like whoa, the sensitivities went down more, 80%, 90%. Now I can eat this, I eat avocados. I remember just reacting to every single food I eat avocados, boom. And then two years ago I would not react to 60% of foods, then 70%, 80%, and as I did more and more things. Now I'm just like I can eat whatever I want. Now I've got the least restrictions. People are like, oh, I can't eat this, or else If I eat pizza now, I'm fine. I don't have a food coma, which would be anathema. Forget about pizza. I couldn't eat an apple, yeah yeah, yeah, no that apple.

Philip Pape: 44:59

Man, I couldn't eat an apple, you know?

Joe Cohen: 45:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no that apple man, I couldn't eat a fucking tomato, forget about an apple, you know.

Philip Pape: 45:09

And the reason this is important right is because, at the end of the day, we want people to live their lives and enjoy food. Food is good, right, and there's too much fear-mongering around it, and some of it may come from a legitimate place, but it's generalized and it's marketed as if, like, this is the diet, this is the perfect diet, and we talk about restriction versus like flexible, personalized restraint. You know, like you want to have flexibility, you want to have some level of restraint in your diet depending on your goal, but then also, hopefully, you can eat whatever the heck you want If that's a food you enjoy and there's a way to get there. So this is awesome, man. I mean, I know we just scratched the surface. Folks can find a lot of your content, but where do we want to send them to to learn more about your work right away?

Joe Cohen: 45:45

I would say Self Decode or Mr Biohacker on Instagram. There's some content there and I think it's important to understand. Really, like, genetics has huge, huge power and precision. Health in general is is very significant. The problem nowadays is it's just going to the person who markets it the best, which is an issue, right.

Joe Cohen: 46:09

And what are these people going to say? They're going to say that I've spoken to some of these people. I'm almost I'm, like you guys realize like what's going. They usually will bury their head in the sand, but also they're going to be like oh, we're, you know, we're just looking at the functional genes and so number one is we, we do that, we can do that, we do that Right, so that if somebody wants that, it's like, here you go.

Joe Cohen: 46:34

But the problem is it's it just doesn't like the if, like, you can't just make predictions based on specific variants, even though they're going to tell you, oh, it's all validated. By the way, that word validation can mean two very different things, right? What they're saying is that there's some kind of study that shows an association between a gene, a SNP, and a condition, between a gene, a SNP and a condition. The problem is that that association might exist, but it wouldn't exist across all different ancestries. It might not be replicatable.

Joe Cohen: 47:07

Now, let's say it is replicatable. The effect size is so small that you would need to add up hundreds of genes in order to get something significant. So the problem is the effect size. But we do still allow people to use genetics in that way because I think sometimes, if you want to play detective, you can learn, you could pick up interesting insights here and there by looking at these genes, and so we just do everything. We've become like the everything platform, and part of the reason we also do everything is because we also license out the technology to other businesses okay so it's basically whatever we get a request for, or if another company's doing something, it's like we can do that too.

Joe Cohen: 47:51

Not a problem here here it is right. Like so we just have like kind of a smorgasbord of everything you could do with genetics and I would you know, and whatever someone wants you could do with genetics and I would you know, and whatever someone wants you can do, right. Like it's like you want this gene, you got it. What do you want? Tell us the genes. We make like custom reports, whatever you want. If you wanted to make a wits and weights genetic report, we can make one for you. You just tell us the topics. Whatever you want in there, we put it in there.

Philip Pape: 48:21

Love it man. Love it man. Yeah, I'm all about data. Like you said, you can't really have too much. It's just can you make sense of it? And, with the power of what we have now with tools and AI and what you guys are doing and the validation, I think that's awesome People this. So we'll send them to selfdecodecom and check out Joe on IG at Mr Biohacker and Joe man. Thanks for your time, thanks for coming on and sharing this. I'm glad we had you to discuss the future, the future of health and medicine and all of this today.

Joe Cohen: 48:50

Appreciate it. And one last tip is you could also upload your lab tests. For me it's like a game I play. Can I move my lab results? And what's amazing is that you can move every single lab result. It's unbelievable.

Philip Pape: 49:04

Nice and then so you can interpret the before and after per the question I had earlier right and see what you've done.

Joe Cohen: 49:09

So yeah, that's what it's all about.

Philip Pape: 49:11

Yeah, you got to, you got to change your. You have to have data that's actionable, that you could make a change from and then be able to measure every lab test, every single blood test you take.

Joe Cohen: 49:19

You can alter.

Philip Pape: 49:21

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's in your control, folks, all right. Well, thanks for coming on, joe.

Joe Cohen: 49:25

Thanks for having me.

How to Estimate Your Metabolism ACCURATELY (The Best Way to Calculate Calories) | Ep 363

Get your free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition Guide to learn the fundamentals of energy balance, macros, and meal timing for building muscle and losing fat: witsandweights.com/free

Get Chef's Foundry P600 Ceramic Cookware - 50% off at witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry

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Stop letting inaccurate metabolism estimates sabotage your nutrition goals. 

The fitness industry has convinced us that estimating metabolism requires expensive tests, fancy gadgets, or complex formulas, but there's one method that cuts through the noise using evidence, engineering, and efficiency.

Your fitness tracker says you burned 3,200 calories, online calculators recommend 2,400 for maintenance, and your metabolic test shows 1,850 RMR. They're all probably wrong.

Discover the one method gives you your actual daily calorie burn with scientific precision so you can run your next fat loss or muscle building phase confidently and with success.

Main Takeaways:

• Your metabolism has 4 components that fluctuate constantly

• Online calculators can be off by 300-600 calories per person

• Fitness trackers have 27-93% error rates for energy expenditure

• The only accurate method is to track calorie intake + trend weight over 3-4 weeks to reverse-engineer your actual TDEE

• This approach is self-correcting, personalized, adaptive, and works even with imperfect food logging

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS - the app that automates metabolism tracking using the method discussed

• Get Chef's Foundry P600 Ceramic Cookware - 50% off at witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry

Related Episode:

• 4 Ways to Increase Your Metabolism by 500 to 1000 Calories per Day

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why most metabolism estimates are completely wrong
6:30 - Online calculators
9:10 - Fitness trackers and wearables
10:43 - RMR testing
12:29 - Measuring inputs/outputs vs. mechanisms/effects
15:10 - How to calculate your real TDEE
23:38 - My favorite app that does this for you
26:08 - Imperfect food logging, water weight, and metabolic issues
30:40 - Why you should start tracking TODAY
31:48 - Becoming the scientist of your own physiology

The Most Accurate Way to Measure Your Metabolism

If you have ever tried to figure out your daily calorie needs, you have probably been met with conflicting answers. Your wearable device might tell you one thing, an online calculator another, and a lab test something completely different. The truth is, most popular methods for estimating your metabolism are off by hundreds of calories, and some can be wildly inaccurate. That inaccuracy can lead to poor nutrition decisions, stalled progress, and endless frustration.

When we talk about metabolism in this context, we are really referring to total daily energy expenditure (TDEE): the total number of calories your body burns in 24 hours. This number includes your basal metabolic rate (BMR), the thermic effect of food (TEF), calories burned through planned exercise (EAT), and the energy you expend through all other daily movement (NEAT).

Because these factors fluctuate constantly, any method that tries to predict your metabolism from static data (like height, weight, age, and activity level) will always be limited. Instead, the best approach is to measure your metabolism directly through your own data.

Why the Common Methods Fall Short

• Online calculators use formulas based on population averages. They can get you into a rough ballpark, but individual differences mean you could be off by 300 to 600 calories (or more).

• Fitness trackers estimate calorie burn based on heart rate and movement, which studies show can be off by 27% to 93%. Even if they were accurate, they only measure part of the total picture.

• Metabolic tests (like RMR testing) may give you a precise reading of your resting calorie burn, but that only accounts for about two-thirds of your TDEE and ignores daily fluctuations in activity, adaptation, and other factors.

The Black Box Approach

Instead of trying to measure each component of TDEE, you can measure its effects. Think of your metabolism like a “black box” in engineering:

1. Energy In – How many calories you eat.

2. Energy Out – Reflected in changes to your body weight over time.

If your weight stays the same, your calorie intake is roughly equal to your TDEE. If your weight trends down, your intake is below TDEE. If it trends up, your intake is above TDEE.

By tracking your daily calorie intake and your weight over several weeks, you can reverse-engineer your actual metabolism without expensive equipment or guesswork.

How to Do It

1. Track your food intake daily, as accurately as you can, using a food log or app.

2. Weigh yourself every day under similar conditions (like first thing in the morning).

3. After 3–4 weeks, calculate your average daily calories and your average weight trend.

4. If your weight stayed stable, your average calories are your current TDEE.

5. If your weight changed, adjust your calculation using the fact that one pound of fat is roughly 3,500 calories to estimate your TDEE more precisely.

This method works because it accounts for everything (your BMR, your activity, your genetics, your current health, and even daily fluctuations in movement or stress) without needing to measure each one separately.

Why This Method Wins

• Personalized – Reflects your actual physiology right now.

• Adaptive – Captures changes in metabolism due to dieting, training, stress, or lifestyle.

• Practical – Requires no special equipment or lab visits.

• Self-correcting – Even with imperfect food logging or a few missed weigh-ins, long-term trends remain accurate.

Turning Data Into Action

Once you know your true TDEE, you can confidently set your calorie targets for fat loss, muscle gain, or body recomposition. For example:

• To lose about 1 pound per week, eat roughly 500 calories below your TDEE.

• To gain muscle without excess fat, eat a small surplus above TDEE.

You can track this manually or use an app like MacroFactor, which automates the calculations and updates your targets based on your latest data.

The Bottom Line

Your metabolism is not a fixed, mysterious number. It’s a dynamic measure that changes with you.

By tracking what you eat and how your weight responds over time, you can get the most accurate picture of your daily calorie needs. This approach puts you in control, so you can make informed adjustments and stop relying on inaccurate guesses from gadgets, calculators, or outdated tests.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Your Fitbit says you burn 3,200 calories. The online calculator tells you to eat 2,400 for maintenance. Your metabolic test results say your RMR is 1,850. So which one is your actual metabolism? Here's the truth. They're all probably wrong, and relying on these methods to guide your nutrition is like using a broken compass to navigate. The fitness industry has convinced you that estimating your metabolism requires expensive tests, fancy gadgets or complex formulas, but there's one method that cuts through all the noise and helps you build a strong, healthy physique, using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:55

I'm your host certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we are going to expose why almost every method you've been told to use for estimating your metabolism has some fundamental flaw and is preventing you from getting the result you want. Most people are walking around with just lots of wrong assumptions about how many calories they burn each day. It's one of the biggest questions I get, one of the biggest sources of confusion and the lack of clarity and confidence, because they are using tools that are simply inaccurate. They are off by hundreds, sometimes even a thousand calories, and then they wonder why their nutrition isn't working. I hear statements like I'm in a calorie deficit, but I can't lose weight. That is a fundamentally untrue statement. If you're in a calorie deficit, you will lose weight. The problem is, you are not in a calorie deficit, but think you are, and this isn't about gaslighting. This is a problem that I had for a long time and a problem that many of you come to me with, and we can quickly solve it, and that's what I'm intending to do today. So by the end of this episode, you are going to know the one method that works, why it's the only practical, practical way right outside of a scientific lab, to get accurate data and then how to implement it yourself, starting today. And the reason we care about this is we want to know how many calories we burn every day, because that is our maintenance calories. That is where we can then start from to build muscle or lose fat and know how much we need to eat on a daily basis, and that fluctuates every day. So you're going to get some clarity by the end of today's episode, but you have to listen all the way through to understand how it works Before we get into it if you want to understand not just this, not just how to track your metabolism. That is the premise and that is the foundation, but then we have to optimize your metabolism to build muscle, to lose fat and also understand how your metabolism changes over time.

Philip Pape: 2:46

Download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition Guide. It breaks down the fundamentals of energy balance, macros, meal timing the best tool for the job to calculate your expenditure and then change your targets weekly so that you can hit your goal. So if your goal is fat loss, you wanna download this guide because it's gonna walk you through the exact steps to set it up, to start running and go and start implementing the information you hear today. Go to witsandweightscom, slash free or click the link in the show notes for the nutrition one-on-one guide. All right, so what is your metabolism and why is there so much confusion over this?

Philip Pape: 3:23

Let us start with what we're talking about when I say metabolism on this show most of the time, and definitely today, and that is your total daily energy expenditure, tdee, the total number of calories your body burns in a 24-hour period, and it's made up of four components and I'm sorry if you've heard this before, but it's worth repeating. Your BMR basal metabolic rate that's about two-thirds of what you burn every day keeps your organs functioning, your heart beating, your brain thinking. Number two is a thermic effect of food. Tef, that's another 10%. That is the cost of digesting and processing what you eat. Then you have the two activity components that can vary a lot from person to person. First we have exercise activity thermogenesis EAT, and that is your planned, deliberate workouts, and that can be anywhere from 5 to maybe 10 or 15% of your calorie burn, and that is anywhere from 15 to 50% depending on how much you move throughout the day, how active of a person you are. So when you add them all up and notice, that's a lot of things if you try to track them individually, which spoiler alert we're not gonna do. Okay, spoiler alert because, for example, your wearable tracks a tiny fraction of this. It tracks how much you move and even then it's not even accurate, so it's useless. Fraction of this it tracks how much you move and even then it's not even accurate, so it's useless. So from an engineering perspective, these components, we have to think about them as not just different from person to person but fluctuating constantly within yourself. Your NEAT alone, your non-exercise activity thermogenesis, can swing by hundreds of calories based on stress, sleep, temperature, mood, let alone your actual movement, how much you're walking or standing or doing chores and parking farther in a parking lot. So that can change a lot.

Philip Pape: 5:12

Your BMR, your basal metabolic rate, which a lot of people think of as their metabolism. It's only the base of your metabolism. It's that two thirds I mentioned. That actually can shift a lot due to adaptation during dieting or during bulking. It can shift based on how much lean mass you have. And so trying to pin down your metabolism with a single number or an equation is like looking at a river.

Philip Pape: 5:36

Imagine looking at a river and the river's flowing, and you're going to measure the flow rate of that river through a single measurement. Right now I'm just going to stick an accelerometer I don't know what measures flow rate, but a flow rate sensor inside a river and that's the river's flow rate. That's the river's metabolism forever. No, obviously not, because the river is going to constantly change the size, the speed, the conditions, the temperature. Everything's going to change. It's dynamic and it's all happening below the surface. Temperature everything's going to change. It's dynamic and it's all happening below the surface. That is your metabolism.

Philip Pape: 6:10

Okay, so now that we know that, you might be thinking oh, my God, you just made it even harder on me. How do we, how do we even figure this out? Let's talk about the popular methods people use and why they're pretty much all useless. Okay, and I'm sorry, they just are. They don't work. They do not work. They might be a good starting point or they might be a good single flow rate in the river, but that's all they are Okay. So let's talk about those methods.

Philip Pape: 6:30

We're going to start with the online calculators because for many people, that is, I'll say, the easiest or most accessible or the one you hear about most often online. And we have one on our website. If you go to what's the weightscom slash calculators, calculators, yeah, you'll find one there. But I have caveats and fine prints all over it saying that this is just a snapshot starting point and it has a lot of error. But and there's a reason there are times when you might wanna use it and we'll talk about that in a second. But these calculators use equations like the Mifflin-St Jor or the Harris-Benedict equation that were developed from population averages, and actually my website has an updated version of that, where Stronger by Science tweaked it even further, and it's based on things like how much you train, not just this generic activity level, but regardless.

Philip Pape: 7:21

Whatever one you use, they will get you, I'll say, in a very large ballpark and I say it that way because the ballpark, you know, think of a baseball diamond okay, and you've got the two foul lines. Imagine a huge park that goes out 450 yards. You're going to be somewhere in there, okay, but if I said I'm going to hit a fly ball and you have to be in exactly the spot, I'm gonna hit it, the chances of you being right are pretty much random chance, right. So these online calculators are about that level of precision. They can be offered like 300 to 600 calories in either direction for an individual. They don't account for A lot of things. They don't account for your training of things. They don't account for your training history, your genetics, your current metabolic state, but, most importantly, how your body adapts and responds and moves all of it right. Just adding it all together, it's not going to be able to accurately state your metabolism based on that.

Philip Pape: 8:19

So that's the online calculators, and they can be a good, I'll say, starting point. And even then, they're not a great starting point. In fact, when the method that I teach we're going to talk about in a second, you don't even need that. The reason you might use it is because you're impatient to have a number to start from, the problem with that being that you then are fixated on that number as if it means anything, and so then you start with that number and then realize, oh my God, I actually burned 500 calories less. My metabolism just tanked. No, it didn't, the starting number was just not right. Okay, so that's. That's why I don't even think it's good to have a number to start with technically, even though the app that I use, macro factor, does have to start with a number. I'd rather you ignore everything until you've gone through the process that we're going to talk about and then use the real number based on real data. Okay, anyway, that's online calculators.

Philip Pape: 9:10

What about fitness trackers? Okay, what about? Look, I have an Apple watch, I have an aura ring. Study show that wrist worn devices can have error rates of 27 to 93% when estimating energy expenditure. There was a study in JAMA internal medicine. It tested seven devices you all know and love Apple Watch, fitbit, garmin, all the big names and it found they were consistently inaccurate for the calorie burn estimates, because they are using your heart rate and motion sensors and they are just guessing at energy expenditure based on formulas, and then heart rate correlates really poorly with calorie burn anyway, especially when you're resistance training, and then they can account for things like your metabolic state, how your body compensates for exercise later in the day when you reduce your NEAT because you're compensating for exercising in the morning, all of that. So your wearable is useless in terms of its fundamental accuracy to begin with. And even if it were accurate, it only gives you the piece of the pie that's represented by that movement, not all the other pieces I just mentioned, like your arm are and your food, you know thermic effect of food, all of it. So that's, that method is flawed and I don't use it at all, like I just don't. There's no reason to use calorie burned on your watch for any reason whatsoever. Well, okay, I'll take that back. The only reason you might use it is to compare different sessions, if you're trying to compare their intensity. That's about it, all right.

Philip Pape: 10:43

The next method that is flawed is, I'll say, metabolic testing, and this is dangerously flawed because it gives you something that might be reasonably accurate but that doesn't help you. Let me explain. These are the when you go to a gym or a medical facility and you get an RMR test right. Some of them are based on bioimpedance measurements, some are under controlled conditions with a cart and a mask. There's just so many different ways and they might be accurate in that specific moment, but your RMR, as we mentioned earlier, is just about two-thirds of your total metabolism. So it doesn't help. I mean it doesn't help. It doesn't tell you all the other things that stack on top of that, and those other things are the ones that change a lot anyway. So all the other things that stack on top of that and those other things are the ones that change a lot anyway. So it's not going to tell you how your metabolism changes day to day and it's not even going to tell you your total energy burn right now. You know, even if you had it done regularly, which would be expensive, it'd be impractical You're still missing the total energy expenditure. So those are useless. So those are the big ones.

Philip Pape: 11:40

Right, and from an engineering standpoint, if you can't measure something directly, what do you do? You measure its effects, you measure the inputs and outputs, you measure what we call the black box. You think of a control system or just a closed system, and if you're able to tell what's coming in and going out. You can tell how the system is changing. Your metabolism reveals itself through the relationship between energy intake and body weight changes over time. It's very simple and elegant, and this is based on the fundamental principle of energy balance, which balance calories in, calories out which, by the way, if it didn't work, we couldn't do this. So we know it works, we know it's accurate, it's physics and it's simply this If you're eating at the level of your total daily energy expenditure, that big pie chart for the day, if you're eating that exact amount of calories, what's gonna happen?

Philip Pape: 12:29

Your weight is gonna stay the same, because you're bringing in energy that matches the energy going out. And so what happens? Your weight stays the same. If you're eating more than that, your body has to store that somewhere in your fat. You gain weight. If you're eating less, you lose weight. Right, you get the idea. And so this method works because it captures the whole thing, the whole black box, the whole pie chart, the whole total daily energy expenditure. It's your BMR, your activity, your metabolic adaptation, your genetics, your current state, what you're eating, how you're eating, how you're processing, all the crazy stuff that goes inside your body. You don't have to worry about it. You don't have to measure it, you just take what's coming in, see what's going out. The change is telling you what your metabolism is right. It's like the best version of a continuous metabolic test that's practical, that's running in the background of your life all the time. It's always there, it's hiding in plain sight, like I mentioned before.

Philip Pape: 13:17

Hey, this is Philip, and before we continue, I want to talk about cookware. We all love to make our own food. I love nonstick pans. The problem is I've avoided them for years because when they get scratched, when they get heated, they can release microplastics, pfas small particles that can accumulate over time in the body and some studies have shown them to be linked to health issues. If you're optimizing your nutrition and making lots of food for you and your family at home, it doesn't make sense to compromise that with questionable cookware. So that's why I was interested when Chef's Foundry, who is sponsoring this episode, showed me their ceramic cookware. It's called the P600 and uses Swiss-engineered ceramic coating which has no Teflon, no PFAS, no plastic components. It is nonstick, it works on all stovetops, it goes straight into the oven. All the things you need if you're trying to cook a lot of your meals at home. Right now you can get the P600 at 50% off by going to witsandweightscom slash chefs foundry. You'll also get a bunch of accessories with that. There's a whole page that explains what you'll get for that discounted 50% off. Go to witsandweightscom slash chefsfoundry or click the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 14:28

All right, let's get back to the show. So how does it work in practice? Simple you track your calorie intake fairly accurately okay, and I'm gonna put it that way because it doesn't have to be perfect and then you weigh yourself every day. That's the most precise way to do it and then, over a period of about three, maybe four weeks, you're gonna have a good trend. You're gonna have a good moving average of your weight and your calorie intake. If your average intake, you know your moving average, we can get into complicated algorithms and all that. We don't need to do that. If your average intake was 2,400 calories and your weight stayed the same over that three to four weeks, then 2,400 is very close to your average TDEE during that period, right.

Philip Pape: 15:10

But we can get even more precise. We can, because if you lost one pound over those three weeks eating 2,400 calories, then your TDEE is higher, right, it's higher than what you ate, because you ate less than you needed. So your TDE would be like 2,570 calories and that's based on the idea that one pound of fat loss is equal to 3,500 calories, right? So we know metabolism is dynamic, so you're going to change in some way, even if it's small, like usually people aren't just this exact same weight day after day after day. There's going to be some change or some up and down or some drift, right? So you take the duration, you take how much you ate per day, you take the fact that a fat, a pound of fat, is 3,500 calories, and take how much you weigh and from that you can tell how many, how much, how many calories you're burning every day, knowing that that's going to keep changing every day. It's going to keep drifting every day. I mean, if you look at my expenditure graph, it goes up and down kind of ridiculously, and that's why I track it, because otherwise I would have no idea.

Philip Pape: 16:08

So the key here is not to use the daily measurements. The key is to take daily measurements, but use the trend over time of those measurements. Don't even take weekly measurements for this. Take daily, because if you take them once a week you might be at a high point or a low point. That's not going to tell you anything either. Right? This is simple math. The more data you have, the more you can smooth out the average, because your weight can swing by a lot day to day. Sodium, stress, hormones, glycogen, fluid, gut content. Right, go up two pounds down two pounds up three pounds down one pound up one pound down four pounds, and at the end of the day it might be the same. Right, the trend over time might tell you. You know what? I'm actually maintaining my weight, even though I have a lot of fluctuations, especially if your eating patterns are not stable. Right, if you eat a lot on the weekends and eat less on the weekdays, for example.

Philip Pape: 16:55

So this approach? It just destroys everything else because of its precision and accuracy. Right, it has massive advantages over all those other things that are just junk. I mean, I'm just being honest Like they don't help in any way. They actually make it worse, because you end up trusting a number that is totally far off from reality and making choices based on that is called an uninformed choice.

Philip Pape: 17:21

We want to make personalized, informed choices. So why is that the case here? All right, I just mentioned it. First of all, it's personalized. It accounts for you what's happening. You don't have to know why or all the details, but you have a unique physiology in that moment, on every given day, unique activity pattern, unique metabolism, unique adaptations, unique hormones, unique stress, unique everything. And that makes you different from the average person, but it also makes you different than you yesterday. So it's highly personalized. The second thing is it adapts to you, so kind of segwaying off of what I just said. You're changing every day.

Philip Pape: 17:58

You need something that can be fairly responsive. It can't take six months Practically. We know we can't do it in two days because your weight changes too quickly, your body doesn't respond that quickly, so we have to find a sweet spot that makes sense from a practical perspective. So agile metabolism changes due to dieting, training, stress, life circumstances. This method is going to capture those in a reasonable timeframe. You know a couple of weeks, maybe a week. You know we can't over trust or overemphasize the data, even though it seems highly precise because it's a moving average, because even a moving average remember, you're taking, you're including some of the data points from two weeks ago or three weeks ago. Things have changed since then but you're doing your best to go with the ebb and flow, right, but you are not stuck with some fixed flow rate in the river from six months ago, because that's useless.

Philip Pape: 18:52

The third thing is, this is a very practical approach. It's just so elegant, in my opinion. I use the word elegant in the engineering sense in that it's a very easy design. It's like E equals MC, squared right from Einstein. It's a very elegant formula and, at the same time, it represents something mind-blowingly complex, right, the theory of relativity. But it's elegant because you can express it so simply, express it so simply. Well, this is elegant in terms of how practical it is.

Philip Pape: 19:22

You don't need equipment, right, I mean, other than a way to log your food, which we have apps for that, or to weigh yourself, I mean okay, so you don't need special equipment. You don't need expensive tests. You don't have to pay for stuff other than a subscription to an app, maybe, and the occasional body weight scale when it breaks. You don't need complex formulas or calculations. Now, I say that with this asterisk depends on how nerdy you are and how much into math you are, but you don't when you use, for example, macro factor, which is the app that I recommend. It does it for you. If you're so inclined and you want to make a spreadsheet for all this, you can, and you can make it probably pretty good, but it's not as complex as if you had to measure all of the stuff happening in your body. That would be just insane, right? You need a food scale, a bathroom scale, and consistent data collection is all you need, and make it easy on yourself to do that. Right. Use frictionless methods to do this.

Philip Pape: 20:13

The fourth benefit of this is it's self-correcting. This is huge. If you're not tracking accurately, if you're missing calories here and there, it's still going to work. You know why? Because it is based on the outcomes, not the inputs. So what's cool with this is it has a lot of resilience. You can be off by up to 30% with your calorie tracking as long as you are tracking, and it's still going to be robust enough to cover you. You can skip some weigh-ins and it's still going to be robust enough to cover you. You can skip some weigh-ins and it's still going to be robust enough. That's pretty cool, right?

Philip Pape: 20:43

I recommend tracking daily and doing it as precisely as you can. But if you skip a weight, if you skip a food log, a day of food logged, or if you're having to estimate because you're traveling at a restaurant, whatever, it's going to be good enough to actually work quite well anyway. And I wanted to mention that because that's an excuse for people who say, well, I can't track every day, or I go to restaurants, I can't be precise. You don't have to be Sorry, you don't have to be. You can have a lot of flex here and it's going to be fine. Right, your weight trend is going to reflect your true average intake over time and the weight trend is resilient to a few missed weigh-ins. Your food is resilient to lack of perfection with your logging right.

Philip Pape: 21:22

And then, finally, when you tie this all together, what does it do? It gives you a thing that you can actually act on in an informed way when you know your real TDEE the pie chart. This is how many calories I burn every day, pretty close to reality. Now I can say, okay, I want to lose a pound a week. That's 500 calories a day. I burn 2000 calories, so I need to eat 1500 calories. And then next week, based on my tracking, it turns out that my TDE dropped a little bit. Well, I need to drop calories a little bit or wow, I'm walking a lot. My TDE is actually going up. I need to eat more to stay in that deficit or surplus or whatever it is right.

Philip Pape: 21:58

Whatever direction you want to go, you want to do body recomp as well. We just talked about body recomp. We just had a 90-day body recomp workshop in Physique University. The day this episode comes out, it was the day after we had the workshop. If you want to see the replay and learn how to track not only track your metabolism, but also come up with a 90 day way to use that information to build muscle and lose fat that's what we did in there. More importantly, though, you know what else we do in physique university.

Philip Pape: 22:26

We deal with scenarios when your expenditure goes up or down and you're not sure why. We can talk through that. We have guides on that. We have coaches who can help you understand it. We can diagnose it. We could even get on a live call or hot seat to interpret your data, to see if it's the data itself or something that you've done that you're not even aware of that could be causing the change, so that you can take control of the situation and know what to do next. Whether you're losing fat, you're hitting a plateau, you're trying to build muscle right, and that's that engineering mindset I want us to cultivate. That this is information, and if we can have accurate data, we can make good decisions. So go to witsandweightscom slash physique If you guys want to join us in there, if you want to get the replay of the body recomp workshop, or if you just want to hit it hard and implement a fat loss plan that I build for you and be able to get unstuck when it seems like you're stuck, that's where we do that PhysiqueUniversity, witsandweightscom slash physique.

Philip Pape: 23:21

Now you could do all these calculations manually, like I said, with a spreadsheet, but I think there's a better way. It's called Macrofactor. I am such a shill for this app because I've used it since launch. Yes, I'm an affiliate. Please support me. My code is witsandweights all one word. You'll get two weeks free and you won't look back.

Philip Pape: 23:38

It's made by the team at Stronger by Science, greg Knuckles and those guys, and it's built specifically on this methodology. It is the only app that does this. How does it do it? I'm just going to quickly explain. When you log your weight every day, it uses a 20 day exponential moving average. You don't have to understand it. It's just a moving average to give you a trend weight. Then it looks at how much food you've logged every day and it reverse engineers your metabolism based on that. That's it, and then it updates your metabolism every day as you provide the data and says okay, it is Monday Time to check in. Your metabolism is up a hundred calories this week. Therefore, we're going to increase your targets by a hundred calories. And the protein, fats, carb breakdown are depending on some other factors like what kind of balance you want, how aggressive you want to be with protein, whether you're lifting weights, etc.

Philip Pape: 24:28

By the way, everyone here should be lifting weights, right? Okay? So I love Macrofactor. Again, you can download it from your app store. It's a paid app, but, my God, the the for 72 bucks a year is going to save you probably thousands of dollars in frustration and healthcare costs and probably other programs for the rest of your life. So it pays for itself instantly. Wits and weights or no, go to go to macro factor from your app store and then use my code wits and weights all one word and that's it. It's going to remove the guesswork for you If you want an app, if you want to do it yourself and you're you nerd out on this stuff. Do it share, share with me your experience, how it's going.

Philip Pape: 25:06

All you need is food and weight right and everything else calculates for you, and you don't have to worry about wearables. You don't have to worry about getting a cup using a calculator. You don't have to worry about going to use a machine in the gym right calculator. You don't have to worry about going to use a machine in the gym right. I've been using it myself, all our clients use it, physique University clients, all use it. And I have not found anything else that provides anywhere close to the accuracy of the TDEE estimate than Macrofactor. So that's why I'm such a shill for it. Okay, I'm a fan boy, as they say. All right. So I know some of you are thinking but Philip, what if I don't log perfectly? What if I forget a meal? What if I estimate my portions? And I've already addressed this to an extent. But I want to go a step further and say that that is a strength of this method because of how it's based on the closed system and the outcome right, it's not based on all the stuff under the hood. So you so let me give you an example Some people might be accidentally under logging every day or over logging every day because of whatever they're doing in their life.

Philip Pape: 26:08

As long as the, as long as the under or over logging is fairly consistent no, you know what? It doesn't even have to be that consistent. Again, you can be off by 30% in either direction. It's going to be close enough. When you think of calories, calories are like in the thousands, right? So if you're off by a few hundred calories, when it smooths it out and then links it up with your weight, it's still going to be pretty darn close to reality and you're still going to be able to nudge your diet in the direction you want to go, with some confidence, with a lot of confidence, because that's the thing people are missing, isn't it? They're missing the confidence to know how much do I eat, or I'm eating this much. I think it's gonna do this, but it's not what the heck's going on In my world. I know how much to eat, and so if I'm eating that much, that's not the problem. It's something else, like something's happening with my expenditure. That's not the problem. It's something else Like my something's happening with my expenditure that's causing me to either fall behind or get ahead of the deficit or the surplus. It's not that I'm not eating the right amount. I know how much to eat, right? Obviously, if you're eating way more way below than the target, way below the target, that's an independent issue, right?

Philip Pape: 27:18

And another question to get is okay, what about the fact that your scale weight changes so much? And some people don't realize this, but it does. It changes due to water weight far more than it changes due to fat changes. And that's why I like tracking every day, which, by the way, has been shown in studies time and again to be the most effective means of hitting your goals and maintaining them Weight loss, maintenance, muscle gain, whatever is to track daily. And that's because you get this trend that smooths out all of that noise the noise from the sodium, from the Chinese food and pizza, from the hormones, from the glycogen, from the hard training session, from the inflammation, from your menstrual cycle, all of it. So that's another question that comes up. Another one is what if my metabolism is insert adjective here broken, non-responsive or I have a thyroid condition? Again, the robustness is built in.

Philip Pape: 28:10

Even if you have metabolic issues, legitimate issues, this is going to reveal your actual energy expenditure so that you understand reality. You might discover that, yes, your TDE is far lower than you expected. And the initial response for many of you is I thought it was burning, you know, 2000 calories, but I'm only burning 1600. Now some people will say what's wrong with the app? It says I only burn 1600. Others will say, oh, it's really good to know that I only burn 1600. And, by the way, you can test this out by eating 1600 for a while and notice that your weight stays the same.

Philip Pape: 28:44

But now you have accurate data work to work with instead of guessing right that that. That, to me, is gold. That's gold because if you have a low metabolism, and it's just the way you are, you can do something about it. You can add more neat into the equation. You can use nonlinear dieting. Maybe everything is suppressed and you're under fueled. Maybe you have a hormone issue, like it allows you to separate the variables and figure out what's going on. Or, you know, you just have a lower metabolism than the average person and go listen to my episode on what to do if you have a very low metabolism. Okay.

Philip Pape: 29:20

So the next question I get is like, isn't this too much work? It sounds like a lot of tracking. Well, you're already eating food, I hope, or else you'd be dead. You're probably weighing yourself occasionally anyway. All I'm asking you to do is log daily which every time I've done a poll of my clients or Facebook members and said give me your screen time for macro factor. It's like three minutes a day. It's like three minutes a day Cause you end up copying and pasting. You end up being very quick with the app. It's one of the fast. It is the fastest app on the market. It's been tested to be the fastest. It has a great database, right. It has AI, it has all that stuff. It's fast. So you're taking three minutes a day to log your food and you're taking 30 seconds a day to weigh yourself, and that's it Right.

Philip Pape: 30:02

And then, but the clarity you get for your expenditure priceless To steal from the mastercard commercial right, beyond that right, like once you establish your baseline expenditure. Now you have this data point You've probably never had in your entire life and that alone is going to give you more clarity than you've had before to make decisions with your food, let alone getting into macros and all that other stuff. So you should just start it and try it, just try. You know what, get what's in get. I keep saying that get macro factor and use the two weeks free. In those two weeks, do what we just talked about Log your food and weight every day and reach out to me on Instagram and tell me about your experience.

Philip Pape: 30:40

If it was awful, if it doesn't work, if you think it's not a great app, I want to hear it. I really do, because I want to know why. Because a lot of times it has to do with the learning curve or other aspects. Some people may just not like it, but once you start using it, what I've found is that you realize your metabolism is not mysterious. It is not uncontrollable. Which Metabolism is not mysterious? It is not uncontrollable, which is what all the marketers want you to believe.

Philip Pape: 31:01

I want you to come to me, whether you just check out the podcast or come into our Facebook group, or you want to implement this stuff for you in our Physique University or coaching. I want you to come to me with more clarity you've ever had before, that you can do something about your metabolism and that you can measure it, because then, from that premise, you're going to start to see patterns. You're going to notice how your metabolism responds to your training, different stress levels, your sleep patterns, what you eat, when you eat it right, your pre and post workouts. You see how your walks, you know how your vacations versus work schedule affect your metabolism, and then you become the scientist of your own physiology. That's what I want for people. That is where the power comes from.

Philip Pape: 31:48

I've had clients discover their metabolism was way off from what they thought 400 calories higher, 500 calories lower and explain why they weren't getting what they wanted, why they weren't, say, losing on whatever calories that the last person recommended, or the calculator or coach or whatever right. And we see the other direction, people trying to go into a gain and build muscle, and they find that in reality, their metabolism takes off like a rocket and that's why they can't keep up and they can't eat enough to gain the muscle, and so they're always kind of falling behind and it holds them back from building lean mass. And so it's not just about getting a number, it's getting an understanding of how your body works, and then that is the foundation for all the nutrition decisions you can make. I love that there are people out there that want you to just eat intuitively and monitor your blood sugar, and based on satiety. But we need precision, folks, we need some awareness, we need some numbers Like I'm just, that's just me, I'm sorry, that's me, I'm a numbers guy.

Philip Pape: 32:50

If you're not a numbers person, then maybe this approach doesn't work for you. If you like to track numbers, because you notice it helps you manage your income and expenses so you can be set for retirement and for your family, then that same principle applies to everything else, especially fitness and nutrition, where it is very numerically measurable in many senses. And so you're not guessing, you're not hoping. You're operating from a place of confidence based on your own data. So again, your metabolism is not mysterious. It is not an unchangeable genetic lottery that dooms you to struggle with your weight. It's dynamic, it responds to you, your lifestyle, and you can measure it very simply and very accurately. And every day you wait to start collecting this is another day you're just flying blind right. Every meal you eat, you don't know your TDE. You just can't make informed decisions. If your goal is physique and health, all right. So let's do this together. Let's understand our numbers and use that to make smarter choices. So you stop hoping and you start engineering your results. That is it All right.

Philip Pape: 33:53

This episode opened your eyes to how metabolism works, and I should say that the metabolism itself. I didn't really get into the science of that too much. I really wanted to talk about how you measure it with this episode. So if you do that, the next question might be okay how can I change it? And so I have an episode called four ways to increase your metabolism by 500 to 1000 calories per day. Episode two, three, six, two, 36. I'm going to link it in the show notes. It's called four ways to increase your metabolism 500 to a thousand calories per day, which gives you strategies to boost your TDEE once you know what, what it actually is. Sorry, I'm losing my voice today. So combining today's tracking method with those strategies, that is what's really powerful. All right, until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights and remember your metabolism is not a mystery. It's data to be collected. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Fat Loss WITHOUT a Calorie Deficit? (Body Recomp Explained) | Ep 362

Join the 90-Day Body Recomp Workshop tomorrow (Tuesday, August 19) at 12 PM Eastern for only $27 (replay included). Get Philip's complete system for simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain, plus a custom nutrition plan. Register at live.witsandweights.com

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Think you need a calorie deficit to lose fat? Or months of bulking followed by months of cutting to reshape your physique?

Think again.

Body recomp (the simultaneous loss of fat and gain of muscle) isn't just possible... it's achievable for most people under the right conditions. 

Your body can become remarkably efficient at energy partitioning, directing nutrients toward muscle growth while mobilizing stored fat for fuel. 

This episode breaks down exactly how this works: how your body can simultaneously burn fat and build muscle, often without scale changes.

Learn who can achieve this "impossible" feat and how to do it.

Main Takeaways:

• Body recomp is simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain, possible even at maintenance calories

• Your body actively partitions energy based on training stimulus and protein intake

• Beginners, detrained individuals, and overweight people have the highest recomp potential

• Scale weight becomes virtually useless - track strength, measurements, and photos too

Episode Resources:

• 90-Day Body Recomp Workshop - Tuesday, August 19, 12 PM Eastern ($27)

• Chef's Foundry P600 Non-Toxic Ceramic Cookware - 50% off at witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry

Timestamps:

0:01 - The scale weight paradox
3:45 - Body recomposition
5:06 - Why THIS is non-negotiable for recomp
6:48 - Energy partitioning and insulin sensitivity
9:30 - Who can achieve body recomp (spoiler: more people than you think)
12:27 - Detrained individuals
13:45 - Overweight or obese
15:09 - Older adults and advanced lifters
18:34 - What is required for body recomp & how to track
22:37 - Patience + realistic expectations
26:02 - Metabolic health improvements
28:39 - Sustainable physique development

How to Lose Fat and Build Muscle at the Same Time

If you have been told that you must be in a calorie deficit to lose fat, you are not alone. Most people believe the scale is the ultimate measure of progress. But what if you could lose fat and build muscle at the same time without the scale moving much at all? This process, called body recomposition, is possible for more people than you think when certain conditions are met.

Body recomp means simultaneously gaining lean muscle mass and reducing fat mass, resulting in an improved physique and better metabolic health. It can happen at maintenance calories, in a small deficit, or even in a slight surplus depending on your training status and approach.

Why Body Recomp Works

The first driver of recomp is resistance training. When you lift weights, you send a signal to your body that muscle tissue is valuable and should be preserved or built. If you are consuming adequate protein, your body will direct nutrients toward muscle repair and growth. If you are not in a large calorie surplus, it will use stored fat to provide the remaining energy needed.

The second driver is improved insulin sensitivity from training. Better insulin sensitivity means your body is more likely to direct carbohydrates into muscle glycogen storage instead of fat storage. Over time, you are partitioning more of your calories toward building muscle and away from accumulating fat.

Who Can Benefit Most from Recomp

Almost anyone can experience some level of recomp, but certain groups see the biggest changes:

• Beginners – New lifters adapt quickly, building strength and muscle while using fat stores for energy.

• Detrained lifters – Those returning to training after time off regain muscle faster due to muscle memory.

• Overweight or obese individuals – Large energy reserves from stored fat make it easier to fuel muscle growth without overeating.

• Older adults – Progress can be slower, but with smart programming and higher protein intake, body composition can still improve.

• Advanced lifters – Gains are harder to achieve, but recomp is still possible with precise training, nutrition, and patience.

Key Conditions for Recomp Success

1. Progressive strength training – Focus on compound lifts with progressive overload to continually challenge your muscles.

2. Adequate protein intake – Aim for roughly 0.8 to 1 gram per pound of body weight daily.

3. Controlled calorie intake – Stay in a range from a small deficit to a slight surplus, depending on your goals and experience level.

4. Quality recovery – Sleep and stress management are non-negotiable for muscle growth and fat loss.

Tracking Progress Without Obsessing Over the Scale

The scale alone is not enough to measure recomp. A better approach combines:

• Circumference measurements (waist, arms, chest, hips, thighs)

• Progress photos

• Strength increases in the gym

• How your clothes fit

These indicators together provide a clear picture of fat loss and muscle gain, even if body weight stays the same.

Realistic Expectations

Recomp is slower than dedicated bulking or cutting. You might see noticeable changes in six to eight weeks and major results in three to six months. A good outcome could be losing a quarter pound of fat per week while gaining 0.3 to 0.4 pounds of muscle, creating a leaner, more defined body over time without drastic diet swings.

Why Recomp Improves Health as Well as Appearance

Beyond looking leaner and stronger, recomp improves metabolic health. More muscle mass supports better insulin sensitivity, blood sugar regulation, and functional capacity. Lower body fat reduces risk factors for chronic disease. This is why body recomposition is not just a cosmetic goal—it is a long-term investment in your health.

The Bottom Line

Body recomp is not magic and it is not reserved for beginners. It is the result of consistent resistance training, strategic nutrition, and patience. When you set up the right conditions, your body can indeed burn fat and build muscle at the same time. The scale might not reflect your progress, but your strength, measurements, and the mirror will.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Picture this scenario you step on the scale for weeks at a time and it really hasn't changed. But your clothes are getting looser, your muscle definition is starting to show, you're hitting PRs in the gym and according to conventional wisdom, this really shouldn't be possible. You have to be in a calorie deficit to lose fat, right, but what if I told you you can burn fat and build muscle at the same time in a process called body recomposition? Today, you're going to discover the specific mechanisms that allow your body to mobilize stored fat for fuel while building lean tissue. Who can achieve this seemingly impossible feat? And it's more people than you think and why your weight might be the worst indicator of your.

Philip Pape: 0:50

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're talking about one of the most misunderstood concepts in fitness, and that is body recomposition. Body recomp is the process of losing fat and gaining muscle simultaneously, often, but not always, without seeing changes on the scale, and this concept usually challenges what a lot of people believe about energy balance calories in versus calories out. Can you do it? Can you not do it? Is it going to take forever? Is it only for beginners? But when you peel back the onion, the science seems to be pretty clear, and understanding how this works can change how you approach physique development. If you're the type of person who doesn't always want to or doesn't feel you need to use bulking and cutting which are deliberate and more assertive or aggressive muscle building and fat loss phases, so you might be frustrated by the scale. Getting a little bit obsessed with it, you might be afraid of gaining fat when you gain weight, you might not want to go into a big calorie deficit. All of those things are perfectly normal and okay, and you might be curious about how to optimize your body composition while just hanging out right Without these traditional cutting and bulking phases. Either way, this episode is going to give you the knowledge to make that happen.

Philip Pape: 2:17

Now, before we get into those mechanisms which I think are really important to understand, or else you can't take the right approach, I want to let you know about something special happening tomorrow that is relevant to this topic. I'm hosting a 90-day body recomp workshop where I'll walk through my system, my approach for transforming your physique without worrying about cutting or bulking. We're going to cover the nutrition setup to optimize this energy partitioning. We'll discuss today training protocols or principles that maximize simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain, as well as a specific training program. I actually recommend following and the tracking methods and principles to show you that it's working, even when your scale weight doesn't change, or it could be that your scale weight is changing a little bit, and we're going to talk about how to demystify all of that. I'm going to share some of the mistakes that prevent body recomp from working and how to avoid them Again. The workshop is tomorrow, tuesday, at 12 Eastern in physique university. It is only $27 to get all of that, to get your free nutrition plan, to get the replay. If you can't make it, go to livewitsandweightscom or click the link in the show notes to register Again. Even just for the workshop itself, 27 bucks is an amazing value. So check that out, livewitsandweightscom, or click the link in the show notes, and you're going to get a 90-day body recomp plan, three phases, all laid out for you for how to do this the right way.

Philip Pape: 3:45

All right, let me start by defining what we are talking about when we say body recomp, because it sounds obvious, but I think it gets misapplied and misdefined a lot. Body recomp is the simultaneous loss of fat mass and the gain of muscle mass, resulting in improved body composition, even when total body weight remains unchanged, or it could change. That's kind of the caveat that I wanted to add, because body recomp a lot of people think of it as just maintaining your weight and getting the result. Not necessarily, and we're gonna get into those nuances, and so this often flies in the face of the conventional wisdom that you have to be in a calorie deficit to lose fat. Most people think of energy balance. You know, kind of like a bank account, calories in calories out, end of story. But your body has a lot that's going on inside. Okay, about the distribution of tissue inside your body, not just your body mass and not just the energy, the overall energy, right? So then we get into biochemical mechanisms, right? Biochemistry is what I meant to say about reallocating energy in ways that, at the surface, seem to break the math. But it's not breaking the math, it's just we're using the wrong math premise or we're looking at the wrong type of math when we talk about it. So let me explain how this happens.

Philip Pape: 5:06

At the physiological level, your body doesn't just dump the incoming calories into a single pool and randomly allocate them right. It is actively deciding where your energy goes, based on some key signals, some key inputs, and the most important of these by far is the training stimulus from resistance exercise, from strength training. And if you're not doing that or don't want to do that, I'm sorry. You are not going to achieve body recomp. You're also not going to achieve fat loss If you're taking GLP-1 drugs. You're not going to get fat loss. You're going to lose a bunch of weight and lose a bunch of muscle. All those scenarios require training from resistance exercise.

Philip Pape: 5:46

So when you lift weights, you create a demand signal for muscle protein synthesis. You're telling your body muscle and protein are important to have. Your body prioritizes sending amino acids and energy toward repairing and building your muscle tissue. At the same time, if you're eating adequate protein but you're not in a large calorie surplus, your body still needs some energy to meet its overall needs and it's going to. At the same time, it's devoting some of that protein toward muscle. It's going to mobilize stored fat to meet the energy needs. So this is what I mean by energy partitioning. I want you to think of it as like your body's resource allocation system becoming more efficient. So, instead of defaulting to just storing fat which is the vast majority of the population because you're resistance training and eating protein, you're going to preferentially fuel muscle growth and you're going to use fat stores for energy. Again, it's going to depend on the overall energy balance as well, but this is just the basic explanation.

Philip Pape: 6:48

The second mechanism here is improved insulin sensitivity. Resistance training dramatically improves how well your muscle tissue responds to insulin, and that means the carbs that you eat are much more likely to go toward refilling your muscle glycogen rather than being converted to fat, because your muscles are this metabolic, this glucose sink, as you've heard, and it's pulling those nutrients away from fat storage. It's a beautiful thing. So when you're in a true body recomp state, you're running two different processes at the same time. Right Now, your body's running these things all the time anyway, but you're trying to balance them out, just so. Muscle protein synthesis is happening at an accelerated rate because you're training, because you're eating enough protein and you're not in much of a deficit. And I say it that way because you could be in a tiny deficit, you could not be in a deficit at all, or you could be even in a modest deficit which, for a newer lifter, could still allow you to build muscle. At the same time, your body is mobilizing fat stores, using what's called lipolysis to provide energy for the process.

Philip Pape: 7:52

Again, if you're in that window, right, if you're in that window like, you don't like. If we think of the other direction, if you're in too much of a surplus, you just don't need. What am I trying to say? You are intaking so much food that, no matter what your body does, even though it's burning fat, it's not going to burn all the fat and therefore you're going to gain fat, right. So we have to be in this window, this kind of slight deficit to slight surplus plus window, which is why I mean you don't necessarily have to be at true maintenance for this to happen.

Philip Pape: 8:25

Now, muscle tissue requires relatively few net calories to build right. We're talking like 200 to 300 calories a day for active muscle growth, because it can't build that quickly. Even if you're new. It's going to be faster than if you're a more advanced trainee, but it's still not anywhere near as fast as the rate that you could lose fat. So if you're eating at maintenance, your body can easily draw energy from stored fat. For that slight bit of calories it needs to build muscle. So it's kind of taking from one and give it to the other. It's like the Robin Hood that you want in your body right, robbing from the fat, the rich fat stores, to give it to the poor muscle stores. You build a muscle right, and guess what? This gets even easier if you have a little extra fat to begin with. So I always say, like, the positive framing on being someone who has extra weight to lose is that that extra body fat on your body is an energy source when you start lifting weights. It's kind of a cool thing. So this is why the scale can stay exactly the same or it could even go up slightly while you're losing fat and gaining muscle. It could even go down slightly.

Philip Pape: 9:30

I've spoken about these different forms of body recomp in the past and I tend to be biased more toward maintaining or building rather than losing. But you can definitely achieve it in all of those scenarios and you're essentially trading the dense fat tissue for denser muscle tissue as you do that, and that's why the math gets a little wonky. So you might be thinking, okay, so who could actually do this? Because that is the big question that gets asked and often answered by fitness influencers in a very simplified way. So not everyone can achieve what I'll say is dramatic body recomp, but everybody can achieve some body recomp. So if we understand the buckets of people here and criteria, then you can set realistic expectations.

Philip Pape: 10:14

So let's start with beginners, newbies, people who are highly detrained I kind of put them all together but we'll separate them. For now. We'll start with beginners. You never lifted before. If you're a beginner, you have among, if not the highest potential for body recomp, because if you're new to resistance training, your body has this huge adaptive capacity. The neuromuscular adaptations alone can drive these huge strength gains right. You can double, triple, quadruple your strength very quickly in just a few months, while your muscles then also start to grow to support that increasing strength. And your body hasn't adapted to the training stress yet because you have a lot of potential. So it responds aggressively to whatever calories you give it right, and we're going to come back to that. This is why I'm not a huge fan of being in a deficit for recomp or even just at maintenance. I like it to be a little bit more aggressive than that. But anyway, hey, this is Philip and before we continue.

Philip Pape: 11:09

I want to talk about cookware. We all love to make our own food. I love nonstick pans. The problem is I've avoided them for years because when they get scratched, when they get heated, they can release. The problem is I've avoided them for years because when they get scratched, when they get heated, they can release microplastics, pfas small particles that can accumulate over time in the body and some studies have shown them to be linked to health issues. If you're optimizing your nutrition and making lots of food for you and your family at home, it doesn't make sense to compromise that with questionable cookware. So that's why I was interested when Chef's Foundry who is sponsoring this episode showed me their ceramic cookware. It's called the P600 and uses Swiss-engineered ceramic coating which has no Teflon, no PFAS, no plastic components. It is nonstick, it works on all stovetops, it goes straight into the oven All the things you need if you're trying to cook a lot of your meals at home. Right now you can get the P600 at 50% off by going to witsandweightscom slash chefsfoundry. You'll also get a bunch of accessories with that. There's a whole page that explains what you'll get for that discounted 50% off. Go to witsandweightscom slash chefsfoundry or click the link in the show notes. All right, let's get back to the show.

Philip Pape: 12:27

The second subcategory of this first category is detrained individuals. They also probably almost as good as beginners, if not a slight advantage because of how the body springs back has a sense of muscle memory because of how you've trained in the past. So if you used to lift weights and then took a decent amount of time off, this I'll just call it muscle memory. It's kind of a colloquial term but effectively your, your muscle fibers are going to regain the size that they've previously been programmed to be capable of. Right, it's just going to, they're going to balloon right back to that size very quickly while your body again is needing that energy. So it's going to burn through fat that that you have on your body.

Philip Pape: 13:00

And if I've had clients who the ideal person for this was somebody who had extra fat. So let's say a guy who would normally walk around at 190, slightly muscular, he detrained and he gained a bunch of fat and he's weighing 230, now 240. That guy can eat a bunch of food, start training and walking and everybody around him is going to be jealous because he's going to start losing that fat and gaining that muscle at the same time, while losing weight on the scale at a good clip and his metabolism going up. So, honestly, a detrained person is rife for this. Now, what about people who are overweight or of an obese weight? Right, I would say that those people also have a huge advantage that I've already alluded to. They're gonna see excellent body comp results because you have significant fat stores. So look at that as a positive.

Philip Pape: 13:45

What can I say? Yes, your health is at risk. Yes, you need to bring that fat down, but you can also take advantage of that situation because your body has plenty of stored energy to draw from, to the point where your body perceives this as not even a deficit when you go into one, as long as it's not too big, right. And that's the example where actually losing weight slowly can work, but it tends to happen over time even so, because of the amount of fat to lose. So when we talk about our 90-day plan tomorrow in the workshop, it's going to apply to anybody, but the amount that you achieve in 90 days is going to depend on your starting point, and your starting point is also going to inform how aggressive you want that to be. We're going to talk about that and give you all those scenarios so you can customize it. But the larger your fat stores to begin with, the more readily your body can mobilize that fat for fuel, because it's there.

Philip Pape: 14:37

Why not? Let's talk about older adults, because that's a massive part of the population listening to this show and in Physique University. And that's what I consider myself. I guess I'm 44, but I feel like I'm getting younger every year. That's the point. But older adults can absolutely achieve body recomp as well. It's typically a little slower, like everything else. Recovery is a little bit less. There's a little bit more anabolic resistance, where your muscles don't respond as readily to the protein. You should probably be eating more protein, but it doesn't mean you train more. That's the only thing. You can't change much because that could actually backfire.

Philip Pape: 15:09

If you have the right programming, if you have high protein intake, you know, and you're managing your fatigue and your recovery, then yes, again, body recomp is totally possible. And a lot of these categories overlap, right? People are overweight, people are detrained, people are older, these can all overlap. And then we have finally the advanced lifters intermediate, late intermediate to advanced lifters. I would say they have the lowest potential for body recomp. But again, it's not impossible. It's just a matter of degrees. If you've been training consistently for years, your body's already adapted to training more than a newer lifter and you're probably going to benefit from being more aggressive. And the extreme of being aggressive, of course, is cutting and bulking. But since we're talking about body recomp, it just means pushing the needle a little bit more in one direction, in my opinion, toward the higher building and gaining direction, to be honest. But there is a case to be made for the other direction as well.

Philip Pape: 16:02

So achieving body recomp, you know it's like, it's not automatic. That's one of the things I want you to take away here, in that we're going to talk about how it happens. But you can't just stay at maintenance and it happens, right. You have to have these, you have to have specific conditions that are met, and those conditions are the things we're going to cover tomorrow in the workshop, because there are it's like if, then statements, it's like, if this do this, if this do that, right, and it's a lot. It's a lot to cover in one episode and I honestly want to give it to you know, the clients who are really going to implement the information, and I want you to implement it. I don't want you to just binge this show out for a walk and you're done and you move on. I want you to implement it, so I'm going to show you.

Philip Pape: 16:41

Okay, how should we train? Should we go toward building or toward losing, to stay in that window? What do macros look like? What does timing look like? What do we track Specifically? What and how often do we track, and how do we do it in a simple, achievable way, in addition to scale weight and food, because you're going to track those anyway, but the scale weight's going to become less important. So what should we pay attention to? And then, what kind of mistakes are people making? So this is tomorrow, tuesday, noon Eastern, only $27. You get the replay. You get the custom nutrition plan for free that I put together for you and, by the way, that nutrition plan could be a fat loss plan that you want to use later and then, in the short term, you can do the body recomp that we're going to talk about. Go to livewitsandweightscom or click the link in the show notes. Again, that's livewitsandweightscom. Sign up for the workshop. If you're already in Physique U, you get it included. Hope to see you at noon Eastern.

Philip Pape: 17:42

Continuing on here, though, as far as conditions, we've mentioned the biggest one of all, and that is a strong muscle building stimulus, and that means progressive overload with a foundational set of movements like compound movements, with some extra volume in there, depending on your training age and your goals. Okay, we're going to talk again in the workshop, we'll get into details on that, and I'm going to give you an exact training template that I recommend. That's going to give you massive growth, surprising level of growth. You'll see, we're going to talk about it in there. Okay, but you need enough volume, you need enough recovery. The nice thing about body recomp is, if you listen to what I'm suggesting and bias toward growth rather than toward a deficit, you're going to be in a better position to make all that progress and not be frustrated and really challenge yourself and get that, those adaptations but then also not worry about gaining fat, which I know a lot of you are scared of, scared of right.

Philip Pape: 18:34

And then we have our protein intake. You know we're not going to get into macros here, that's actually pretty simple. I talk about it a lot, but we're going to talk about that. And, of course, your calorie intake. This is where it gets a little tricky because are you? Are you aiming for maintenance? Are you aiming to push your maintenance? Are you aiming to be in a deficit? And then, when you do one of those three things, what is your body going to do in response? And how do you keep up with that, knowing that the amount of change is so small? It's it. You've got to be very precise in seeing how that tracks right and how you do that. So my point is here you just have to be on top of things, and that's why body recomp isn't just something that happens just because you stay at maintenance, because the last thing you want to do is be toggling between a surplus and a deficit and never quite being in one spot. And then, of course, sleep and stress management all of that that are always important that always supports your hormones are going to just be just as important, of course, when you're going for body recomp.

Philip Pape: 19:32

So let's talk about the tracking side of this, okay, because this is where people get frustrated and give up. They're using the wrong metrics, or they're not patient enough, or they're changing too many things at once, or all the above, all right. Let's start with scale weight. So scale weight is both virtually useless for tracking body recomp, and also completely essential, and I'll tell you what I mean From the useless side. Okay, seeing the scale stay the same or go up or go down is not going to tell you whether recomp is working. It's just going to tell you that you've kept your energy balance in a certain range to keep you at that scale weight. That's the useless side, right, because if you're gaining this dense muscle tissue and losing the less dense fat tissue, you could gain, stay the same or lose and not quite be sure what happened, unless you're tracking other things to show you what happened. So that's the useless. Where it's essential, though, is you still want to know what your body weight is doing, because that's going to allow you then back into the body fat and muscle distribution. It is one of several metrics that go together as a system. So that's scale weight.

Philip Pape: 20:48

Body fat is the next one, and this one's big right, and you've probably heard me say that there is no way to measure body fat accurately, and that is true, but there is a very good way to measure the change in body fat over time, and you don't have to use DEXA, you don't even have to use an in-body. We could do it very simply with simple circumference measurements, correlated with things like photos, how your clothes fit and such. And even then you still have to individualize. You have to understand well for you what should we expect to change? Because you may carry fat in a different spot than someone else. You know, a menopausal woman might be carrying a lot more in her belly and it doesn't come off as fast from there but it comes off in other places. Maybe waist size isn't the most reliable. There are ratios that we can use that will make it a little bit more reliable, correlated with the other stuff.

Philip Pape: 21:37

The other stuff like photos, okay, and strength progression and how your clothes fit. So I'll say circumference measurements do tell a pretty honest story. You know waist, arm, chest, neck, thigh measurements when we're looking at body recomp, but it's, how do you interpret those? Then we have strength progression, another huge variable, another huge condition. Of course you should be training consistently, and this is again why I like to be in a slight surplus for body recomp and slight I mean very, very slight, okay, just because you want to be fully resourced for that strength and for that muscle building. If you are progressing, that is a great sign. No matter what it's a great sign. The more of a deficit you're in, the more under fueled you are, the harder it is to progress. So the more you're able to easily progress and feel energized and less sore and recovered and and more recovered, the more you know, just from that alone, that you're on the right track. You're getting stronger, you're maintaining or improving your body composition as expressed in the gym.

Philip Pape: 22:37

And then I mentioned things like clothes. I mean, it's such a simple thing but honestly, it's the biggest mind shift that people have, where the scale doesn't move or it even goes up a little, but their clothes are looser and they're like this is just so weird, right, but it's an important indicator that this thing is working. So you've got all that. And then the other thing I mentioned is patience and expectations, because body recomp is, by definition, going to be slower than a focused cutting or bulking phase. Now, I say by definition, what I mean is the end result. So if you want to reduce your body fat percentage and increase your lean mass, almost always it's going to be more efficient to do separate cutting and bulking phases. But for those who don't want to do them, don't want to recomp over a long period, they want to do kind of a short-term result, without dealing with extra fat gain or going on a deficit and all of the challenges that come along with those.

Philip Pape: 23:38

Body recomp is a great middle ground. It really is. It's a great compromise, it's a good tradeoff. So in a cut you might lose, let's say, a pound a week or even two pounds a week, depending on where you're starting from. But of course you have to be in a deficit and you have to be doing all those things right. You have to do the dieting piece of it and body recomp. However, you might lose, let's say, a quarter pound a week of fat, but be gaining, let's say 0.1 or 0.2 pounds of muscle, right, or something like that. In other words, it's going to be a similar ratio, I would say as being in a surplus, but it's going to be on the top end of that ratio, biased toward muscle.

Philip Pape: 24:19

So I just told you the wrong numbers. I should have flipped it around. I should have said like 0.3, 0.4 pounds of muscle versus like 0.1 pounds of fat, 0.2 pounds of fat, in other words, more than two to one ratio of muscle to fat. But their numbers are small, right, and in this case the scale might drift or might stay the same, and I say it that way because it depends on how precise you are and how responsive your body is to the different changes in tissue. Okay, that's why we can't completely rely on the scale, but we definitely know if the scale is going up too fast or going down too fast, then that's an overcorrection and that gives us information as well.

Philip Pape: 24:59

So over several months, over the three-month period we're talking about in the workshop tomorrow, you're going to get a good physique improvement. If you do this right In realistic expectation terms, you are Versus a good physique improvement. If you do this right In realistic expectation terms, you are Versus people who do crash diets. They lose a bunch of muscle, they get really gaunt and weak. Then they binge it all back. They're back where they started with more body fat. To me that's not body recomp right. So most people are going to visually see noticeable changes at about the six to eight week part mark, if they're consistent with their training and nutrition. And then by three months the momentum really starts to build and by that point my goal when I give you a 90 day plan is to say, hey, by then you're going to be so excited about this. The sky's the limit. You can continue recomping for six to 12 months and really get a fantastic transformation. Or you could say, hey, I'm gonna go with. I now have the confidence and the courage that I know how to do this. I can go step on the gas pedal and go build muscle or go lose fat in a more aggressive way. And that's what I like about all of this it's teaching you about yourself and how this stuff works.

Philip Pape: 26:02

I would say a lot of influencers out there really oversimplify things. They oversimplify energy balance and they also oversimplify body recomp itself and your body is very sophisticated. But if you understand the inputs and outputs and then what's happening inside bio mechanical or biochemically, you can definitely gain the system a bit to make it work for you. Energy partitioning, creating the right conditions, reprogramming how your body responds to food and training at the cellular levels what we are trying to do. Your muscles will become more insulin sensitive. Your body's going to more preferentially burn energy I'll say fat. But then we can get into the whole energy system argument and I don't want to misrepresent this. It's not that you burn more fat, it's that you are shuttling more nutrients toward muscle growth and your body has, no, no choice but to find the energy somewhere else, and it's going to find that in your fat, right. So you are actually burning net fat, not just oxidizing fat in general. I hope that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 27:05

I did a whole episode about like burning versus losing fat, but I don't want to go down the rabbit hole right. And as much as everybody listening here is like, oh, I want to do this, I'm going to look great, I'm going to improve my physique, that's just a nice side effect. Like physique development is a side effect you are actually becoming metabolically healthier, even in a proper body recomp phase. Better insulin sensitivity means better blood sugar control. More muscle mass means better functional capacity. Improved body comp means reduced risk for all the chronic diseases, and so, yes, you can improve your health this way too. And body recomp is the intersection of optimal health and optimal physique development. For those who don't want to really push it, with my goal being that you're going to learn that you might want to eventually push it. But this is a nice, very productive baby step there, really more than a baby step.

Philip Pape: 27:52

I don't mean to belittle it in any way. In fact, that's why I'm doing a workshop tomorrow on it because it's one of the most commonly asked things, and I'm not going to come in tomorrow and say so. The secret is you can't do it. No, of course not. No-transcript. We want to work with your natural system to achieve something that, for a lot of people, seems impossible but is completely doable getting leaner and stronger at the same time. So it's not magic, guys.

Philip Pape: 28:39

Body recomp's not magic. It's not too good to be true. It's not only for beginners. It's a legitimate physiological process that happens when you create this window of conditions through consistent resistance, training, adequate protein intake and patience. Patience is the biggest success factor of all. Well, the other big success factor, I'm gonna say, is accountability and support. We hardly talk about that, but we should talk about it more, because that is the number one reason people are most successful reaching their goals is they have support. Again, another thing we have with the workshop tomorrow and with Physique U.

Philip Pape: 29:16

The biggest mindset shift, though, is moving away from okay, this is maintenance. Right, that's my measure of success. That's kind of boring and it's not going to get you very far, but if you start tracking what matters your strength progression, your measurements, how you feel, your biofeedback, all of that then body recomp becomes kind of an enjoyable gamified engineering system to go after. It's actually kind of fun, and when you figure that out, when you do that well, you can then shift the levers in one direction or another if you want to go there Because your body wants to be strong and lean and you've got to fuel it so we can do body recomp while fueling and not gaining too much fat. That's kind of that sweet spot. I want to get you in right, because the goal isn't to lose weight. It really isn't. I hope you know that by now, or at least listening to this show, and if you haven't, I'm glad you found us, because the goal is definitely not to lose weight. The goal is to get a strong, capable, healthy body that feels and looks good, has muscle definition, is lean, but you don't necessarily have to lose weight to do it. So body recomp is often the most sustainable path to achieving that goal, and a lot it's mentally sustainable for a lot of people as well. So if you want to stop being frustrated with whatever you've tried in the past for recomp or cutting or bulking or dieting, or maybe you just weren't sure what to do and you want complete clarity, a plan for body recomp.

Philip Pape: 30:41

Join me tomorrow for the 90-Day Body Recomp Workshop. Tuesday, august 19, 12 Eastern. There will be a replay with all the stuff. If you can't make it, you're still going to get everything. I'm going to show you my approach for achieving simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain setting up your nutrition, training, tracking the mistakes, troubleshooting what to do for your scenario, and we're going to have time for Q&A as well. So it's literally a workshop where you're going to be thinking, hmm, how do I put this in plan in place for me? Okay, philip is walking me through and now let me ask him my specific questions. For my scenario, we're going to answer those in the workshop and if we can't get to everyone's questions, we're going to answer them after the workshop in the community.

Philip Pape: 31:23

So so it's tomorrow, tuesday, 12 Eastern. It is 27 bucks. Go to livewitsandweightscom or click the link in the show notes. One of the best values you're ever going to find to get you clarity and result with your physique and health that you'll ever find $27, livewitsandweightscom or click the link in the show notes. I really hope to see you guys there. It's going to be a lot of fun. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember when your body comp is improving. The scale is irrelevant. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The Lost Legacy of Women's Strength (Anne Marie Chaker) | Ep 361

Want to build muscle, lose fat, and train smarter? ⁠⁠⁠Join the new Physique University for just $27/month⁠⁠⁠ and get your custom nutrition plan FREE (limited time): bit.ly/wwpu-free-plan

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Were women in the past weaker than men, or have we been sold a lie? What if prehistoric women could outlift most modern athletes? And how does understanding this history change the way you train today?

I’m joined by Anne Marie Chaker, author of Lift: How Women Can Reclaim Their Physical Power and Transform Their Lives. We break down archaeological evidence that shows ancient women had elite-level strength, explore how cultural narratives have stripped women of their physical identity, and reveal why midlife can be a prime time for building muscle. You’ll learn simple, sustainable ways to start lifting, structure your workouts, and rethink food as fuel, not the enemy.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 – Intro
2:24 – From journalist to competitive bodybuilder
4:30 – Archaeological proof of elite ancient women
7:07 – The Viking warrior who wasn’t a man
11:10 – The mixed messages of modern fitness culture
17:37 – How to fuel like an athlete
26:10 – Navigating perimenopause and training
30:05 – First steps for women new to lifting
36:10 – A brief history of strong women in sport
40:09 – How lifting shapes identity and mindset

Episode resources:

• Website: annemariechaker.com

• Book: Lift: How Women Can Reclaim Their Physical Power and Transform Their Lives

• Lift Substack

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/anne-marie-chaker-62119317 

• Instagram: @annemariechaker 

Reclaiming the Strength Women Were Born to Have

If you picture women in history as frail and passive, it is time to rewrite that image. Archaeological evidence shows that prehistoric women had bone density and upper-body strength rivaling today’s elite female athletes. Viking warrior graves, long assumed to belong to men, have been confirmed female. For most of human history, women were not bystanders to physical work. They were builders, warriors, and athletes by necessity. The idea that women are naturally weak is a recent cultural invention, and it has cost generations their physical power.

The reality is that women have always been strong. That strength was essential for survival and deeply woven into everyday life. Today, reclaiming it is not about chasing a particular physique but about living with more capability, confidence, and vitality, especially in midlife and beyond.

The Original Athletic Body

A Cambridge University study comparing the bones of ancient women to those of modern women revealed something remarkable. Prehistoric women had bone structure equivalent to today’s top female rowers. These women worked the land, carried heavy loads, ground grain, and performed the relentless manual labor that kept their communities alive. Their strength was not a rarity, it was the norm.

This was the “original” female body, built for resilience and power. That reality stands in sharp contrast to the modern thin ideal, which only took hold in the last 150 years, often coinciding with moments when women gained social influence. The flapper era in the 1920s, the waif look of the 1990s, these trends emerged alongside women entering new roles in politics and the workplace. Thinness became a tool of control, undermining physical autonomy.

Midlife Strength Is Not Only Possible, It Is Advantageous

Perimenopause and menopause are often framed as a period of decline, but they can be a powerful window for building and preserving muscle. Training during this phase supports bone density, metabolic health, and quality of life for decades to come. Shifting the focus from weight loss to muscle building changes the game entirely.

The key is structured strength training, not endless cardio. Compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, presses, and pull-ups form the foundation. Three sessions a week, 30 minutes each, done with focus and progressive effort, are enough to spark meaningful change. You do not need a fancy gym to begi. Dumbbells, bands, or even just body weight can work.

Food as Fuel, Not an Enemy

For many women, the turning point comes when food is no longer seen as something to restrict but as something that builds strength. Adequate protein is essential, and simple staples like chicken tenderloins, turkey crumbles, potatoes, rice, and liquid egg whites make hitting daily targets easier. Prepping these foods ahead of time removes decision fatigue and helps avoid the last-minute takeout trap.

Structure does not mean rigidity. Within a balanced framework of protein, carbs, and fats, there is room for favorite foods, whether that is a date night meal or birthday cake with family. This is about sustainability, not punishment.

Lifting for Life, Not Just for Looks

The benefits of strength training go far beyond aesthetics. Lifting heavy builds capability and confidence. It changes how you move through the world, how you age, and even how you see yourself. It also sets a visible example for younger generations. When children see their mothers lifting and enjoying it, they learn that strength is normal, not exceptional.

The workout itself does not have to be exhausting to be effective. Training at about an 8 out of 10 effort (RPE) for most sets ensures that muscles are challenged enough to adapt without leaving you drained. Consistency, not destruction, is the goal.

How to Begin Reclaiming Strength

1. Start where you are, at home or in a gym, with a few key movements like squats, presses, rows, and hip thrusts.

2. Commit to 3 focused sessions per week, about 30 minutes each.

3. Prioritize protein in every meal and prep staple foods in advance.

4. Track progress against your own past performance, not against someone else’s body.

5. Stay consistent, even when life gets busy, knowing that small, repeated efforts build lasting results.

The Takeaway

Women are not new to strength. They are returning to it.

From the agricultural fields of prehistory to the competition stage at age 50, the female body has always been capable of power and endurance. Reclaiming that legacy is less about chasing a physique and more about embracing the body’s potential.

When you train with purpose, fuel with intention, and measure progress by your own evolving capabilities, you are not just getting stronger, you are aligning with the way women were always meant to live.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you think women were historically weak and passive, you're about to discover how wrong that assumption is. Archaeological evidence reveals that prehistoric women had bone density and arm strength comparable to today's elite female athletes. Viking warrior graves once assumed to be male have been confirmed female, and the delicate flower narrative you've been told about women throughout history is a complete fabrication. Narrative you've been told about women throughout history is a complete fabrication. Today, my guest reveals the lost history of women's strength and why reclaiming this power isn't just about looking good. It's about surviving and thriving in midlife and beyond. You'll discover why your female ancestors would outperform most modern women in strength tests, how perimenopause actually creates opportunities for building muscle and specific training approaches that work best with female physiology. Stop believing the lie that women are naturally weak when the evidence proves women are built for physical power. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:09

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm excited because we're challenging what you think you know about women and strength throughout history and even modern times, because my guest is Anne-Marie Chaker, a former Wall Street journalist who made a quite dramatic career pivot to become a competitive bodybuilder at 50.

Philip Pape: 1:27

She's the author of Lift how Women Can Reclaim their Physical Power and Transform their Lives. We're definitely going to link you guys to that in that book and we're going to play on that in today's interview. She combines evolutionary biology, archaeological evidence, sports science, culture to reveal how women have been I'll say, systematically conditioned to believe they're naturally weak, when the opposite is quite true. And today you're going to learn why prehistoric women had strength levels that would potentially shame modern athletes. The cultural narratives that have stripped women of their physical identity and how those have evolved. The specific ways that women over 40 can reclaim their evolutionary advantage through intelligent training, which we're all about here. Whether you're a woman looking to build strength or anyone interested in nerding out on the intersection of history and biology and performance, today's episode is going to change how you view women's physical capability. Anne-marie, hope I got all that right. I'm very excited to get into this with you, and welcome to the show.

Anne Marie Chaker: 2:21

That was beautiful, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Philip Pape: 2:24

So I want to really start from the historical lens. I don't know if we can make this a chronological story, but your book Lift challenges all of these assumptions about gender and physical capability, that women throughout history have been weaker, or there are certain views that we have on them culturally based on recent history, especially like the Victorian age and all of that, and that they're maybe less involved physically than men throughout history. But your research, I think, suggests quite the opposite. So when you look back at the majority of our history, first of all, what was expected of women? What's the reality there? What was expected of women in terms of strength?

Anne Marie Chaker: 2:59

So this book was really born of my own experience, philip, when I, you know, was in my 40s and life had hit kind of a tough patch. You know, I, through happenstance, kind of entered this weird wild world of weightlifters and bodybuilders and kind of weightlifting had changed my life Right. So it was like the world was black and white and then it was Technicolor Everything. Once I started working with this coach and lifting weight, my body was transferring, but it was also my mind started transforming and so, like you know, had more confidence. I, you know, would come back to my desk after a good lift and I would, you know, I could hear it in my voice I was wearing lipstick again, like everything, like I just felt like a new person, and so the dripplist in me really wanted to understand well, where has this been? My whole life, like my entire life, I was chasing skinny right, always, this feeling like I had to lose weight. If I did, it wasn't ever enough, and like I had to be thin. And it's like the message that is ingrained in our heads from the moment we were born and suddenly embracing kind of the moreness of muscle and the idea of building oneself, kind of radically transformed my life in every which way. So the journalist in me really wanted to understand why the heck have we been, you know, chasing this thing when this other thing is clearly the answer? And I became enamored of you know.

Anne Marie Chaker: 4:30

I started, you know, kind of researching the history of the thin ideal and where the heck this came from. And I kept coming back to this study out of Cambridge. This professor kind of realized. Study out of Cambridge, this professor kind of realized like how come, you know, early bones of women are always being compared to men but we never compare them to how women, modern women's bone structure looks. So what if we took Neolithic and Paleolithic women's bone skeleton and compared them to a sample of modern women? So she looked at a sample of different modern students at Cambridge University more sedentary students, athletes and she found that the early women's bones were about the size of the elite rowers with their big, developed kind of upper bodies.

Anne Marie Chaker: 5:23

So this blew her mind and blew my mind too, because it said these early women were buff, they were lifting heavy things, they weren't sitting around wondering like how do I get thinner. They were, you know, an integral part of agriculture. It wasn't like, you know, this hunter gatherer myth where, like, the men are doing all the work and they're hunting and they're doing all the things and the women are picking berries in the field. No, the women were working hard. So this, to me, said that this is the OG body, this is the body that women are intended to have and that we perform best at. And that was why, to me, as an athlete who was lifting heavy things, of course, I was working, doing much better in every which way. So it kind of went from there. If I was experiencing this, if I was kind of coming home to this body that I felt like I was always supposed to have, I wanted other women to kind of experience this as well.

Philip Pape: 6:24

I was always supposed to have. I wanted other women to kind of experience this as well. You know the story about looking into the why and history. Right, it reminds me of Jen Todd, right, jen Todd, who is a pioneer in powerlifting for women. She kind of founded many of the academic. I think she even still edits a journal and she I forget which university she went to, but anyway it reminds me of that, of looking back and saying you know, we make all these assumptions about how women were acting in society. You mentioned the gathering versus the hunting. Are there particular points in our culture's history? Is it? Do you have to go back to prehistory, or is there? You know, during post-agriculture and civilized time, I guess, where we see this? You know, because I'm just really curious what they were doing to get those massive rower density bodies.

Anne Marie Chaker: 7:07

It's interesting because we look at things through this modern lens of. You know how women are supposed, you know how men behave and how women were. You know we think we have so many cultural touch fairy tales, and you know marketing message on cracker boxes and you know all kinds of things. There was another thing that I found which blew my mind, which was this Viking grave in Birka, sweden, that was discovered, and in the grave was this great warrior, clearly a leader, buried with the horse and chess pieces. That showed that this was a leader who was thinking about strategy, clearly the grave of a great leader. For eons it was assumed that this was. I think the grave was found and I could be wrong here, but I think it was like 1917. And so for many, many years it was assumed that this was a male, and it wasn't until just a few years ago, that very recently, that it was found that this warrior had two X chromosomes.

Anne Marie Chaker: 8:07

It was, it was a woman, and how interesting is that? I mean I, if I found the, I would have assumed it was a man too, right, but it's like only in modern times. Really, it's really the, the idea that men are the stronger. Sex is really the product of the last 150 or so years. Men are the stronger. Sex is really the product of the last 150 or so years and I would argue, you know it's something that has benefited a patriarchy run by men. If we keep women in a more childlike, controlled, weaker state, that benefits a world run by men. And we see this take place most sharply in certain times where women really gain more power and influence.

Anne Marie Chaker: 8:50

So, for instance, when women won the right to vote in the 1920s, what did we have? We suddenly had the flapper was the look where, you know, suddenly thin was in in a big, big way. This reared its head again. For instance, you know, we saw it in the 80s when women suddenly were infiltrating boardrooms and the corporate world and we had the power suit with the big shoulder pads. You know, suddenly we had Kate Moss, and you know.

Anne Marie Chaker: 9:18

So there are moments where, you know, you see the skinny thing rise most sharply when women start to show an inkling of more power. So I could go on and on about this. But it's not just one thing that caused skinny to be. There were many things, from food supply and demand. We want to emulate wealth, right. Well, when food became more plentiful, more people had access to the stuff. So you know, the pendulum started to swing more towards thinness and you know the dawn of the calorie and the obsession of measuring it and all of these different things, kind of fueling the flames. But at its core, I think you know really the skinny obsession is really a product of control and keeping women in a weaker state which has never benefited us.

Philip Pape: 10:14

Yeah, I mean, I love strong women. My wife lifts weights, we're talking about that a lot, and, of course, I suppose I'm the last person who can talk about patriarchy, being a man myself, so I'm not going to go there, but I could see that in history. I think it's important to understand history and why certain moments and landmarks had shifted the narrative right Like the Victorian frailty. You know where were our ancestors from 10,000 years ago and how they lived versus a thousand years ago in the Middle Ages, and the Vikings versus the Victorian age, and so I suppose you tell me if this is true or not. Are we in a new renaissance now? Because I think we're talking more about it. I think there's more acceptance for strong and being fueled, but I also hear just as strong some of the terrible messaging that has hung on since the 80s, that gets amplified on social media, especially to younger girls, with how the algorithms work and things like that. So what are your thoughts Like? What period are we in now in terms of women's strength?

Anne Marie Chaker: 11:10

It's such a great question and I have so many feelings and so many thoughts. You know, as the mother of a 14 year old girl who's just recently discovered TikTok. I was just sitting on a bus next to her and literally watching her for hours scroll through my phone and look at TikTok, and so it was really kind of fascinating study on what she's seeing and what message. And let me tell you, it's not pretty. It's not pretty. There's this whole skinny obsession rearing its head again and I mean, and on the other hand, I go to a gym and I see, I see we're starting to see many more women and when I started my journey, I started hitting the fitness, the weight room, and I would say 2018, 2019, I was really one of the only women in the weight room. I was largely 18, 19, 20 year old young men. I was kind of the grandma.

Anne Marie Chaker: 12:04

Now I think you know the influencers gym influencers, as they call them. We're seeing a lot more women in the weight room, which is wonderful, and they know what they're doing. It's impressive Like they go and they know what to do, they've watched the video and they go with friends and so forth. So, and of course, glp-1s now again. So there's different things going on and I think it's all kind of shaking out. There was one, I don't know if you remember, in my book, a study of Miss Americas from, you know, 50 years ago to now, and it was this researcher who kind of noted that you know, we're starting to see more of a skinny, muscular ideal, which also isn't good, you know, because that's not healthy either and it's an ideal that's even more impossible to reach. So I think there's a lot of mixed, confusing messages going on and I don't think the skinny thing is going away anytime soon, unfortunately.

Philip Pape: 13:05

Yeah, I think you talked about that on a recent Substack article.

Philip Pape: 13:08

Yes, a little like that for folks.

Philip Pape: 13:09

You've got a lot of really cool articles there, some cross-posted as well with other folks that you collaborate with, but that skinny, muscular I think you were talking about an actress in particular but it makes me think of, from the male perspective, how Fight Club became like a landmark for the new physique of super skinny, not even shredded and muscular, just kind of gaunt and skinny, right Like with the six pack, and why those things are so powerful and why they take control with these huge and so I always think I don't know what you think is that if you're different, if you're weird and you're the minority, you're probably doing the right thing in any given part of society.

Philip Pape: 13:45

So if we're to elevate this for folks listening and, by the way, a lot of our listeners, they're into lifting, they want to know about this. We're trying to get the message out about. You know, if you want to lose fat, that's fine, but it's not about weight, it's not about scale weight, it's not about being skinny. It's about fueling yourself and being healthy and performing yourself and being healthy and performing. Who are your favorite athletes today that would exemplify that or to not put you on the spot, like you know what people should look for when they're trying to follow individuals on social media or podcasts or whatnot to get the right messaging into their feed.

Anne Marie Chaker: 14:16

Well, I don't know that this is revolutionary or anything, but I've been really taken with Alana Marr. I think you know her Instagram is just a masterclass. I think she works with her sister on it. I could be wrong. It's just like she's funny and she's brave and she talks about her. I mean, her body is unbelievable, she's big and she's unabashedly strong and she talks about how she feels and she's honest, like sometimes like she feels not so good and like she worried, like it's just a very honest, funny and brave social media account and it represents kind of the best of what social media should be, which is just honest. She's very body-powered, she's strong and she's proud of her strong body and she eats like there was one where she was biting into a donut the other day and she was just like I am enjoying a jelly-filled donut and it was just like. It was just so funny and you just wanted to eat the donut with her and and hash it out. But you know, trying to think of other athletes, that none come to mind.

Philip Pape: 15:30

No, that's okay, and that's a lot of Mar with an eye right, a lot of Mar with an eye. Yeah, yeah, the Mar, yeah, olympic medal is um, definitely check her out. I gave her a follow as well. How about have you heard of Jessica Bittner?

Anne Marie Chaker: 15:39

That name rings a bell Canadian forklift.

Philip Pape: 15:42

She's a powerlifter in Canada, super, super strong. So yeah, I was just curious, right, because I think you have a 14-year-old daughter, I have a 13-year-old and an 11-year-old, right, and they actually don't have cell phones yet.

Anne Marie Chaker: 15:56

No, neither do mine.

Philip Pape: 15:57

They play with. And no judgment on anybody, I'm just saying like that kind of wholesale takes an element out of the equation. But I am also, you know, concerned about that. Like, how do you get educated yourself when you're raising your, your children, your daughters, to, when they see that information, to have the right judgment on that and critical thinking skills around that? Right, because we can't control everything. Once they grow up, they're going to be exposed to all that, so what do they do? So that's just kind of where all this is coming from.

Anne Marie Chaker: 16:24

It's amazing what they absorb. I haven't done much with TikTok but I was like this is what you guys are interested in and you're seeing these little gym video. Let's do some together. So we started just a couple of weeks ago I started taking little videos in the basement here where I keep my weights and stuff with mother-daughter nonsense workouts and stuff. And it's funny, my little one who's 10, she said we were. I was doing a bench press with her spotting behind me and we had the cell phone camera on and she goes all about the bulk and and I was just like where do you know this? Like she's like like they pick up on stuff that they see on tiktok.

Philip Pape: 17:08

so anyway, well, it's funny you mentioned bulk. Right, because the language we use is important too. Right, because you hear still fears about bulking and getting big and being muscular and and or the other terms like being tone and being lean and all that. It, or the other terms like being tone and being lean and all that. It's like trying to define all that or dispel what it all means. You're all about, from what I understand, you know, fueling yourself and performing, and so what I'm curious about being a bodybuilder 50 awesome, this is like you're. You're still you're prepping for your first show, right?

Anne Marie Chaker: 17:37

No, no, I've done shows before. This is. I'm in prep for my first pro.

Philip Pape: 17:42

Pro show yeah, yeah, okay, awesome. So what is that? Obviously, bodybuilding itself does come with certain extremes. We've talked about that on the show in terms of like, when you have to lean out ready for the show. But in terms of the building and the improvement season, what does that look like for you? What does the everyday person, who doesn't even want to compete, who's a woman? What are the general principles they should be trying to incorporate when they go down this journey of strength and health?

Anne Marie Chaker: 18:07

Yeah, I would say it really reframed my feelings about food as something to like oh my God, avoid guilt as like something to embrace and to really eat more quantities of, like whole and plentiful food. And that doesn't mean it's a great big free for all, and but I would say that I prepare my own food ahead of time to ensure that I'm eating really well. And that sort of approach of preparing ahead of time and meal prep which is like a term you hear a lot now with social media, but prepping your food ahead of time has been the big game changer for me In the past.

Anne Marie Chaker: 18:57

I would eat when I got hungry, you know, and I would eat when I got hungry or I would come home from work and it was like, oh shit, there's nothing in the fridge. Take out menus. There was a, you know, it was always like feeding myself was like a last minute thing when I got hungry. And then, of course, you're not going to make great choices, you're just kind of going to eat what's easy, quick or yummy. Kind of going to eat what's easy, quick or yummy. So now I have a much more I mean bodybuilders think in terms of macronutrients. So that's how I categorize my food. I think the big three are carbs, proteins and fats and basically I do like a big shop on Sunday. I'm a big Aldi's shopper. I love Aldi's. It's cheap and it's quick and it's everything you need and it's no frills. I save so much money shopping at Aldi's and, by the way, I'm not like an Aldi, I don't get any money from Aldi's.

Philip Pape: 19:54

This episode is sponsored by Aldi. This is not a sponsored by Aldi. Maybe I should reach out to them, I know.

Anne Marie Chaker: 20:00

But so anyway, sunday big shop at Aldi's. Come home I always make a ginormous big green salad and that's like the thing I keep in the fridge and I pull from that all the time. I make a pot of boiled potatoes, either sweet or white, it doesn't matter and or white rice I love white rice. So those things are always like those are my ready to go carbs and then proteins I eat things that the rest of the crew will like also, so I'm not cooking meals forever. You know different meals for everyone.

Anne Marie Chaker: 20:34

So grilled chicken I buy those chicken tenderloins, throw those on the grill those last a couple of days, everybody eats those. I do something I always call a tenderloins throw those on the grill those last a couple of days, everybody eats those. I do something I always call a turkey crumbles, which is a pack of 93% and 99% turkey mixed together with a pack of taco seasoning. That's awesome. I eat that on salad. I eat that with potato, kids eat that with tacos. That is gold. And then liquid egg whites are like the mother's milk of bodybuilders that I consume that in a smoothie. That is like gold for my mid-afternoon smoothie. I usually combine that with some banana or berries, maybe a spoonful of peanut butter. If I need fats banana, but liquid egg whites is always. And yeah, like I eat pretty basic but it's good food and it's satiating and I like, really like protein. I mean, I like meat.

Philip Pape: 21:32

Yeah, no, we're all about protein and carbs. So I love, I would be hungry if I didn't just have lunch, so it sounds so good. But I do want to give the audience some takeaways. Right, because we talk about macros and tracking and all that. But there are some simple things that you just mentioned that are timeless. They're principles, they're things that will make your decision fatigue way lower when you get to, you know, prepping your dinner for the kids and your family.

Philip Pape: 21:56

And you get home and you don't have much time, you don't go for the Chinese takeout, and that is, you know. Two things you mentioned One doing things ahead of time, prepping ahead of time, reducing decision from the week. And of course, that could be extrapolated to anything, to preparing what you're going to eat, to the grocery shopping you do on Sunday, to having a meal plan, whether it's a loose mix and match or more, you know, firm, depending on what your preference is Right. And you mentioned very simple but like great choices for foods that are high in satiety, high in fiber. Right, the potatoes, for example, are underrated, source of staying full. People don't realize. And then all the beautiful, the egg whites. Actually, that's another underrated thing because people talk about whey protein and that one is really good.

Anne Marie Chaker: 22:39

So underrated. I mean you don't even need whey protein if you're using liquid egg whites. I think a lot of people get grossed out by the idea of the egg and, like you know, I always get like don't you have to cook them and you don't, they're pasteurized so you can consume that, and like they're totally flavorless. So once you get past the mental block of them being eggs, it's totally flavorless, it's fine.

Philip Pape: 23:04

Yeah, yeah, great, and you can mix it in with whole eggs as well and increase the protein density. Yeah, and you said one other thing about reframing around food, about it not being a big free-for-all, and it reminded me of I think I'm going to do a podcast about this Lyle McDonald wrote an article years ago called excluding the middle, and it's basically the false dichotomy where and this is big on social media right when it's like well, over here you've got the all pop tart diet and then over here you've got the all clean and like super boring bodybuilder diet and, like you said and you mentioned Ilana Mar eating the donut, there's room for it all. Don't't. Don't assume this false dichotomy. But you have to have structure, you have to have planning. Right is that? Is that the message here?

Anne Marie Chaker: 23:43

absolutely, absolutely, and that's really kind of like. That's continues to be like. My challenge is, like you know, finding the. I love the way actually you put it is the structure, having the structure as the backbone and allowing yourself a life.

Anne Marie Chaker: 24:01

But always kind of coming back to the backbone of um, right now, for instance, you know I'm in prep and I'm like weeks before competition, so I'm not, I'm really careful and um yeah, I'm really dialed in, but in the, when the competition season is over, I'm still tracking, you know, I'm still tracking macros and making sure I'm like hitting my protein and allowing myself, you know, I might have I don't like the term cheat days, because I feel like but it's yeah, but I, you know, go on a date night, allow myself a date night with my husband or drink wine and have like a wonderful meal, and that is totally awesome and cool.

Anne Marie Chaker: 24:43

It's not every night, because then it wouldn't be special, right. But you know, a date night, or like, if I'm, you know my kid is having a birthday, like I'll enjoy birthday cake because it's birthday cake, it's my kid, it's life, you know so it's not like it's, it's not like it, just life, you know. So, it's not like it's, it's not like it. Just because you're a bodybuilder doesn't mean like you're negating everything, you know it's within a framework and allowing yourself, you know the times, to enjoy the special things which is important and very important, you know, and that's like, and they're special.

Philip Pape: 25:16

So yeah, and so I don't know how natural this segue will be, but because we're talking about bodybuilding and also mentioned your age, the natural question is okay, perimenopause, menopause, hormones hot topic today. We've touched on it on this show, talking about some of the chain acceleration and muscle mass, and obviously it's very different from one woman to the next as to how they're going to respond and whether HRT is in the mix and all this other stuff. I think the listener wants to know that phase of life does it present certain challenges for some women that they need to work around with their lifestyle, with their training, with their food? Because I know what a lot of women tell me is I'm trying to lose weight and I'm having trouble doing that, and it becomes a weight loss discussion as opposed to, maybe, a building or muscle discussion. Where do you stand on all of that? What should be the first focus for someone in that age range? What are your thoughts on all of that? The perimenopause, training, lifestyle, all of that?

Anne Marie Chaker: 26:10

Yeah, no, it hit me. You know, I kind of had this idea of like menopause, like you know, like I don't know it was like for those people, like you know. And so when I started feeling these symptoms I would say about a year ago, and I thought a hot flash was like oh Lord, I'm having, I'm hot. No, it didn't feel that way to me at all. It was like a prickly sensation and I thought I was having a panic attack, like that's what it felt like to me, like prickly, like anxiety. So I didn't associate it at all with menopause. But then it started happening with some frequency and I had this like really bizarre road rage incident with this other driver and which was very unlike me. So I remember coming home and Googling road rage and menopause and it turns out rage is a thing. And then I realized the prickly feelings and then I was having other symptoms and so, yes, menopause is real and I found some relief with I take an estrogen patch and that has helped a lot.

Anne Marie Chaker: 27:25

But it's funny, there was a story in the Wall Street Journal about how, like certain phases in your life where you age more and like for men, it's like between I don't know, I don't remember, it was like between 43 and 44.

Anne Marie Chaker: 27:38

And like for women it was like between da, da, da, and it's just like I just feel like the last year has been like suddenly, like I have hit, kind of like I, I have aged more and I've felt it at the gym, like I feel like my body feels different, like I, you know, like I've aged, so I don't know.

Anne Marie Chaker: 28:01

It's kind of exciting this competition season because I'll see how things shake out. Like you know, I no longer, like in the past I used to be really competitive against other people, like I used to really want to win and kick butt and you know, this time around I'm more interested in like myself, like I still want to win and do well, but I'm more interested in like how I'm going, still want to win and do well, but I'm more interested in like how I'm going to look compared to the last time I stepped on stage and kind of this is so no, but I'm feeling pretty good. But it does feel like I will say 50 feels different than the last time I competed, which was I was 48, 48 and a half.

Philip Pape: 28:36

Yeah, I mean I like that. It sounds like a very healthy perspective of competing with yourself, right? Because one of the common questions I get is like how strong should I be for my age, or how big should my muscles be for my age, or how, whatever I'm like, the best standard is yourself, Like where were you last year or last month or what are you trying to improve in, and compare yourself to that. But let's dig one level deeper though, in the whole menopause thing, because when I had Holly Baxter on the show and I asked her the very first question, like what are most women not doing or should do that they're not doing, she said just building muscle, like whether it's in a calorie surpluspost-menopause. I mean really everybody.

Philip Pape: 29:20

As we age, we hit these age markers that you mentioned and things start to change as well, as we've had a certain lifestyle for like 20 years, 30 years. That is, I guess, catching up to us, if you will Like. Where should someone start? Where should a woman listening here say, wow, Ann Maria, that's awesome what you're doing? I don't think I'm going to be in a show next year, necessarily, but I want to get healthier. What's the first step?

Anne Marie Chaker: 29:41

Yeah, that's a great question. So a couple things. You can decide whether you want to do this at home or join the gym. My feeling is I like having both options. It doesn't take a lot to have a couple things at home on days where you can't make it to the gym. Go to a corner of your house. If you have a couple pairs of dumbbells, maybe a band, you actually get a good workout done.

Anne Marie Chaker: 30:05

The beauty of the gym is it's like it's nice to get out, it's nice to see other people, you might make a couple friends, you know, and you have space to kind of spread out there's more stuff. So I really enjoy going to a gym and kind of seeing the familiar faces and kind of high fiving my pals that I see there. And benefit of gym too is if you join, like you'll get a freebie session or two with a personal trainer. So really work them to give to, you know, push them, to give you kind of a plan to start but really like if you're doing some kind of weight training three times a week, give it 30 minutes three times a week. I sort of feel like most people can do that. And when I say 30 minutes, like you know, the other day somebody said oh yeah, it's 30 minutes.

Anne Marie Chaker: 30:52

It's like yes, but make it 30 minutes where you're not like looking at your phone or staring at the wall or thinking about something else, like really make it that like I'm going to give myself 30 minutes and I'm going to be out the door and here's, I'm going to do these three or four exercises, you know, three sets of 10, and like get it done. But yeah, we're all guilty of, like you know, getting distracted or looking at our phone and wasting time, but, like you know, if you make it efficient, you're likelier to, you know, come back again and again and and stay on top of it.

Philip Pape: 31:25

I feel like uh, yeah, we're all about efficiency, because that that's one of the biggest excuses to consistency is the time and I like, how you mentioned, make it count. Right? I was listening to, I think Dr Mike is retell talking about training hard and people will say, well, I'm in the gym, you know seven days a week, bro, and you know I'm hitting, but of course they are on your phone. You're doing maybe one set. You know you're not training with relative. You know you're at like five or six reps shy of failure. You know you're not training hard. But if you could, those 30 minutes, like you said, three or exercises which I look at your content and it's what I would expect for somebody who knows how to lift. It's a lot of compound lifts and variations on those and a little bit of accessory work in there, because obviously you're a bodybuilder working on your physique. What are those three to four exercises in general for a new lifter?

Anne Marie Chaker: 32:10

So I am a big fan of, I love the squat. So having a barbell at home, I think is a good thing. You can also do with just dumbbells. But the squat, the deadlift, the chest press, you know, pull up, those are kind of like my meat and potatoes that I think of. And then from there, you know, then you can talk about rows or other push exercises, pushups and you know kind of work from there. But those really lead my workout. You know the hip thrust, those lead the beginning of every one of my workouts and you know, from there the accessory work is really done at the end.

Philip Pape: 32:54

Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.

Lisa: 32:56

Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, philip Pate. With his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful little app called Macro Factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and he really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense.

Lisa: 33:33

And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me. So thank you, Villa.

Philip Pape: 33:40

I still hear a lot of people wanting to do the circuit YouTube workouts, and no judgment. I mean there's specific trainers and workouts that are very effective, but there is a culture correct me if I'm wrong where, especially I see it with women they want to do these kind of follow along circuit style, not very much rest. What are your thoughts on those types of workouts? Can they be effective or not?

Anne Marie Chaker: 34:05

I think you know we've been conditioned to think of exercise as like cardio, right, that you have to like end it in a breathless state of like puddle of sweat and want to die in the middle of the floor. And you know I none of my workouts looks like that. You know I hit an eight on the scale of one to 10 of the RPE rate of perceived exertion. The name of the game is to fatigue the muscle. If you're fatiguing the muscle, then you're doing it right and you know your body, you know when you hit that point. You know what an eight is on a scale from one to 10. And then you know you keep doing that, you keep lifting heavy things and hitting that eight, and that's what you know.

Anne Marie Chaker: 34:54

I'm fatiguing, but in a good way, and I finish and I don't feel like I'm dead. I feel like I've put in a good lift and I can move on with my day. Good lift and I can move on with my day. And then I am likely to do that again and again and again, consistently. That's the thing. None of my workouts is like kill yourself material. It's like it's a good lift and I do it consistently and that's it. That's not sexy, but that's what it is.

Philip Pape: 35:28

I mean you hit on at least three principles that are important. One you mentioned the eight RPE over and over again, which for anybody who's thinking about that would realize and understand. Strength. That means you're actually going to get stronger over time because to be able to hit that eight the next time in the gym, you've adapted and you've gotten stronger. Right, that's a great approach to training. What I want to do is connect that to a little bit back to the history again, maybe over the last I don't know century or so, when we think of the culture of women in powerlifting, which was kind of non-existent until I don't know 60s, 70s, you tell me, I'm not sure when women powerlifters even existed. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Anne Marie Chaker: 36:10

Women powerlifters. So there's a chapter in the book where I looked at strong women over time, starting with kind of even the term strong women we looked like in the 1890s. They were, you know, circus performers. They were you, you know, they were anomalies. They were almost like the bearded woman, like, oh, the woman with the muscles, who's like lifting the dumbbell, you know. So there was that.

Anne Marie Chaker: 36:36

And then over time there were, like these flickerage moments of women athletes. They're, you know, like the roller derby, you know it was this whole thing like the sport in the 1940s and 50s where, like, women were, you know, pushing and shoving each other around and they were, you know, on roller skates and they, you know, they were stars and people knew their names and they they were on television and you know, for whatever reason, that kind of fell out. There was the queen of Muscle Beach, pudgy Stockton. She was, you know, the first woman to wear a two-piece bathing suit and you know, she kind of like was the starlet in Hollywood of Muscle Beach and she was kind of the first female body. So yeah, so, like over time. Then what else did I write about? The women of glow, the, the women wrestlers, and then the dawn of you know female bodybuilders around that time.

Philip Pape: 37:38

So yeah, yeah that show glows is good too if you haven't seen, it was great.

Philip Pape: 37:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I know, I was just wondering about that, you know, because again, we keep tying it back to culture and identity and I mentioned Jen Todd because she was just in the local newspaper, for some reason, talking about lifting the Dinnie Stones over in Scotland. I hope I got that right and the identity and psychology thing is important, right, because here you are, you're a journalist. Maybe we could talk about did you not lift? Until when did you start lifting? How old were you?

Anne Marie Chaker: 38:20

So it's funny growing up, the first time I really hit a weight room was when I rode crew in college for a time and that was the first time that, like the weight room had come and I loved it.

Anne Marie Chaker: 38:28

I loved it, I felt like very at home and comfortable in it and I could see changes happening in my physique and and then that just kind of disappeared. Once I, you know, graduated from college, like started life, growing up, working, having a boss, paying off student loans, like that space in my life was gone and suddenly, like everything exercise related was about, like you know, losing weight and you know, or yoga or polite or things that, like I wasn't interested in. So this was a different time. But the weight room wasn't something that, like I come back to for decades. So when I started with my coach again when I, you know, in my 40s, it just felt like this wonderful homecoming. It's like, oh God, I remember this stuff and I did this stuff when I was in college and felt so good then. So it was just kind of like this wonderful, like coming home to my body.

Philip Pape: 39:25

So then, how it sounds like the relationship with building the physical strength like changes your psychological relationship with a lot of things, like with aging, with your capability, with your function, like how powerful is that? Because you're right, even people. I wasn't into athletics as a young person, so I just kind of found it later in life. But I equally see many, many dudes. For example, who I know, a guy. He was had interest from the Yankees for the major leagues when he was in college, you know, and he ended up being an engineer. And you know, you look at them 10 years later you would have no clue, right, cause he just got into that world, he stopped lifting, he stopped being active, and so you kind of lose it. How powerful is that, that connection?

Anne Marie Chaker: 40:09

that identity, especially for women. Oh, it's everything. It's everything. It gives you a core sense of capability and confidence and feeling like you can take care of yourself. And the wonderful thing is like, now that I'm a mom, I love that my daughters can see me doing this stuff in the basement and they don't think it's weird or anything. And they've like started kind of picking up a dumbbell or whatever and like becoming interested in doing it with me. And so, like you know, I'm not going to say they do a whole lot, they get bored very quickly but at least they're like you know, they're kind of like doing it with me and it's not weird for them, and enjoying like coursing around some weights and stuff with their mom, something I never got to do with my mom.

Philip Pape: 40:55

Yeah, it's not like they're having fun. That's the important thing at that age, right yeah.

Anne Marie Chaker: 40:59

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 41:00

Yeah, yeah, and I think it's an underrated thing is why I ask Cause it's until you do it you don't realize it. I mean men and women. You know, for me, just the idea of doing this hard thing and getting better. There's a lot of things we can't control in our life, right, but we can control the shaping our body and then I think it really does shape our mind. So it's really powerful to hear what you've been through.

Anne Marie Chaker: 41:21

We're in our heads so much. We're in here so much. It's important, I think, to make yourself do something hard every day to push yourself physically to lift heavy things and put them down and do that and it's part of like what makes us tick, like what makes us go. We shouldn't lose sight of that. It's a healthy thing, building your strength.

Philip Pape: 41:56

All right. So then, thinking about the societal relationship we started with and the history and kind of the phase we're in now, you know we've seen the explosions of, for example, CrossFit. Crossfit started around 2010 to become really popular. Then we have things like Orange Theory and Curves was around for a while. Right, Remember that. Are they still around? I don't know.

Philip Pape: 42:14

I think, they're still around Bodybuilding right, which you exemplify and powerlifting. So what's next? What's happening next? How do we get the message out? I mean, is this just a matter of women following the right content and going to the gym and just seeing how they feel? Like do you have a system, a process and approach that you'd recommend somebody you know do? Or is it more on the food side first, like, what are your thoughts there?

Anne Marie Chaker: 42:37

I think they go hand in hand. I think you know starting to think about things that you want to change. So, on the food front, maybe it's like maybe you are snacking on you know your kid's lunchbox or maybe you're eating out too much, but find the one thing that you think you'd like to change and start there nutritionally For workouts. I mean, I think you know starting with body weight is you know, if you have a body, you have a gym. You don't necessarily need to be lifting dumbbells. You can start light or start just getting used to the motion with your own body and starting in a corner house, picking three things Maybe one day it's an upper body, Maybe day two is a.

Anne Marie Chaker: 43:26

Chapter six of my book actually gives you a nice way to frame your week and think about picking exercises and what to do on each day of the week. So I would, you know, recommend starting. You don't have to know anything. So I recommend starting there and think about joining a gym. Pick a place that is within easy reach of your house that you're not going to be. You know driving 15 minutes or more, but you know within. You know 10, 15 minute drive and aim to go there.

Anne Marie Chaker: 43:55

You know, once or twice a week, maybe it's like, one day you do it at home, a couple of days you do it at this gym and just kind of like figure out your rhythm and see how that's working for you. And I think, getting out of the house. I think it's good to have a setup at home, but I think getting out of the house is really important. I think it's great. I like seeing new people, meeting people, exchanging words with people. I think it's very healthy. It's something that I really underestimated the power of community and you know needing each other. So I think I'm a big believer that gyms and, you know, workout spaces and studios can, can fulfill some of that for us.

Philip Pape: 44:32

I mean, it makes sense, the number one, the number one factor for wellbeing is relationships right.

Philip Pape: 44:37

Is having having social network, and obviously you gave people a framework for a lot of flexibility here and some really good ideas, right, like maybe you start at home, you maybe have the gym, maybe mix, maybe mix them both. Right, people don't often think out of the box like that, like I don't have to do it all at the gym, I don't have to do it all with weights. I love your quote. If you have a body, you have a gym. Like no, there's no excuse. But we're also not telling you like yeah, you know, you got to.

Philip Pape: 45:07

I love that, because one of the first things people when they ask me, like how should I train? And I start to give them principles and they're like, okay, what do I do with that? And it's like, okay, here's a simple program that'll get you started. And then we can tie that back to the principles that Anne-Marie talked about today and training hard and putting your you know, putting effort into it and making it count. Because why waste the time You're there to get some work done, Right, awesome, all right. So really good things, really empowering. Is there anything you wish I had asked that we didn't cover on this topic? I'm sure there's a few things, but anything that comes to mind that you wanted to answer.

Anne Marie Chaker: 45:41

No, I mean, I would just for women in particular. I would just, you know, don't underestimate your strength. You, I would just you know, don't underestimate your strength. You know you are an athlete, you have always been one. Even if you think you're not, you're not, you are. You multitask like nobody's business. Our bodies are incredible. We bring life into the world. We live longer than men. We are so strong stronger than men in a lot of ways that you know we didn't talk about, but that you mean like childbirth, that.

Anne Marie Chaker: 46:13

But also, you know, just like in this day and age, when we're obsessed with longevity, how interesting is it that since the dawn of time, across all cultures, women have lived longer than men? We still don't understand really why. And that's because, you know, we don't study women enough. We tend to study men. In terms of muscularity, you know women have different types of muscle fiber. More of quick response.

Philip Pape: 46:41

Like power, explosiveness, yeah Right. But women have more like endurance, yeah.

Anne Marie Chaker: 46:46

And we are able to withstand and endure more than men. So I mean, just women are like, incredibly strong in ways that we don't give ourselves enough credit for. So build and capitalize on that strength and stop trying to whittle yourself down. Power yourself, build yourself, and you're so worth it.

Philip Pape: 47:09

You are, and I've seen I've been surprised myself how many women, when they lift and kind of show me their recoverability and their ability to push reps and volume, like there is a an edge that women have with recoverability and and which almost means like you might have to even work a little hard in the gym sometime, cause you can handle more, which is fascinating. So you said you are an athlete and have always been one. We're going to leave it at that. That's a beautiful quote. Where do you want listeners to learn more about you, anne-marie? And you work besides a book, which I will definitely link in there as well as your sub stack, so I've already got you covered there.

Anne Marie Chaker: 47:40

Okay, my website is annemariechakercom and it's C-H-A-K-E-R-A-N-N-E, so A-N-N-E, mariechakercom, to learn more about who I am and what I'm doing and what I'm writing about.

Philip Pape: 47:55

Awesome. We'll include that and all the other links in there. Thank you again. This is a fun topic. I know we just barely scratched the surface. You guys pick up her book if you want to learn a lot more nerd out on that, or check her out on other podcasts as well. And, marie, thank you so much for taking your time and being on Wits and Weights.

Anne Marie Chaker: 48:10

Thank you, Philip.

1920s Weight Loss Secrets (Calories, Candy, and Cigarettes) | Ep 360

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Diet culture emerged in the 1920s, when calorie counting was invented, cigarettes were marketed as weight loss aids, and thinness became associated with moral virtue for the first time in American history.

Discover how the birth of modern diet culture 100 years ago created patterns we're still repeating today.

Main Takeaways:

• Dr. Lulu Hunt Peters invented calorie counting in 1918, selling 2+ million copies of the first diet bestseller

• Lucky Strike's "Reach for a Lucky instead of a sweet" campaign increased cigarette sales 300% by targeting weight-conscious women

• The moral dimension of dieting (connecting food choices to character and virtue) started in the 1920s and persists today

• Bizarre 1920s fads (grapefruit diets, tapeworm pills, vibrating belts) reveal humanity's eternal search for effortless weight loss shortcuts

• Energy balance remains the core principle, but now we understand the many other nutrition and lifestyle components that matter

• The desire for quick fixes is deeply human but misleading... sustainable success comes from embracing fundamentals

Episode Resources:

• Join Wits & Weights Physique University for $27/month - get your custom nutrition plan built for free when you use the exclusive podcast listener link

• Get Chef's Foundry P600 Ceramic Cookware - 50% off at witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry

Timestamps:

2:37 - Dr. Lulu Hunt Peters, calorie counting pioneer
6:42 - Cigarettes vs. sweets campaign
9:30 - Bizarre 1920s fads (grapefruit diet, tapeworms, and vibrating belts)
12:44 - What the 1920s got right about weight loss
15:18 - 3 major mistakes that persist today
19:17 - Why we still seek the same quick fixes 100 years later
22:21 - Sustainable fundamentals vs. magic solutions

1920s Weight Loss Fads That Still Shape Diet Culture Today

Imagine a world where eating a candy bar was a moral failing, and lighting a cigarette was seen as a healthy choice. That was America in the 1920s. Diet culture was just being born, with calorie counting, bizarre fad diets, and aggressive marketing from both candy and tobacco companies. Some of these ideas were effective in their own way, while others were dangerous or downright absurd. Many still influence how we think about food and body weight today.

The Birth of Calorie Counting

In 1918, Dr. Lulu Hunt Peters published Diet and Health with Key to the Calories, the first diet book to become a national bestseller. Peters had struggled with her weight and flipped the scientific concept of the calorie from a tool to prevent malnutrition into a method for eating less.

Instead of saying “one slice of bread,” Peters wrote “100 calories of bread.” She taught women how to calculate their ideal weight and daily calorie needs, and allowed them to eat whatever they wanted as long as it fit within their calorie budget. This was the beginning of food tracking as a weight loss strategy, and it worked for the same reason it works today: awareness and accountability around energy balance.

However, Peters also tied thinness to morality, self-control, and even patriotism during wartime. Being overweight was framed not only as unhealthy but also as unpatriotic and morally suspect. This moralizing of food choices remains a damaging undercurrent in diet culture today.

Cigarettes as a Diet Aid

As beauty standards shifted toward the slender “flapper” figure, the tobacco industry saw an opportunity. In 1925, the American Tobacco Company launched the now-infamous “Reach for a Lucky Instead of a Sweet” campaign for Lucky Strike cigarettes. The ads featured slim women and claimed smoking could help avoid fattening sweets.

The results were dramatic. Sales tripled in five years, and the percentage of women smokers in the U.S. jumped from 6% to over 15%. The campaign cemented the association between smoking and weight control, an idea that persisted for decades.

Candy Fights Back

Not everyone welcomed this new “diet aid.” The National Confectioners Association accused Lucky Strike of spreading dangerous misinformation and argued that candy was part of a balanced diet. The Federal Trade Commission eventually forced tobacco companies to soften their claims, but the damage was done. Millions of women had taken up smoking in the name of staying thin.

Extreme and Strange Fad Diets

The 1920s and 1930s were full of other questionable approaches. The grapefruit diet promised fat-burning enzymes, but in reality kept people on extremely low-calorie meal plans. Even more disturbing were tapeworm pills, marketed with the claim that ingesting a parasite could help you lose weight without changing your eating habits.

Mechanical “reducing salons” were also popular. These featured vibrating belts, electrical stimulation devices, and massaging rollers, all promising to shake the fat away.

What They Got Right and Wrong

Peters’ emphasis on calorie awareness was a major breakthrough, and her flexible approach meant people could eat a variety of foods without banning entire food groups. The problem was the reductionist focus on calories alone, ignoring nutrient quality, protein intake, and satiety.

Moralizing food choices was another lasting mistake. Linking body size to personal virtue still leads to guilt, shame, and unhealthy relationships with food. The 1920s also marked the rise of dangerous quick fixes, from cigarettes to starvation diets, and the belief that weight loss should be effortless if you just found the right trick.

Lessons for Today

Many of the same patterns are still with us. Modern diet products and “miracle” plans often make the same promises as 1920s fads, just with updated branding. The human desire for shortcuts has not changed, but we now have the scientific knowledge to do better.

We know that sustainable fat loss and muscle gain come from combining sound nutrition, adequate protein, strength training, good sleep, and stress management. The fundamentals are not glamorous, but they work. Calorie tracking can still be a valuable tool, but it should be combined with a focus on food quality, overall health, and building habits that last.

The history of diet culture shows that while technology, fashion, and marketing evolve, the core challenges remain the same. By understanding where we have been, we can avoid repeating the same mistakes and focus on strategies that actually support health and performance for the long term.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

Keep a candy bar in your pocket and you are committing a moral crime. Light a cigarette instead and you're making a smart health choice. That was America in 1925, when weight loss meant counting calories, resisting sweets and turning to tobacco companies for nutrition advice. Today, you're going to discover in a very fun episode how the first diet bestseller in history revolutionized eating by reducing food to simple math, why cigarette companies waged war against candy manufacturers in the name of slimness, and the bizarre lengths people went to to lose weight from grape-only diets to swallowing parasites. These aren't just quirky footnotes from history. The echoes of 1920s diet culture still shape how we think about food, willpower and our bodies today.

Philip Pape: 1:00

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach and historian, philip Pape, because today we're traveling back to the roaring 20s this is 100 years ago to look at the birth of modern diet culture. I thought this would be fun because I'm a huge fan of history and I wanted to see what has stuck with us till today. I'm a huge fan of history and I wanted to see what has stuck with us till today. What has kind of was insane back then. That doesn't exist, and also what practices were used that are still used, just maybe in a different way. When it comes to the fitness industry and marketing and diet culture, we go back a century, to when Americans discovered calorie counting, when cigarettes were used as diet aids and the pursuit of thinness first became fashionable and even patriotic. We're gonna look at what worked, what failed and why. Understanding history because, as they say, those who understand history, who do not understand history, are doomed to repeat it. Why this might save you from repeating the same mistakes when we look at the context and reflect on the choices that are great or great great grandparents made. All right, before we get into this, if you want to come into the modern age and understand what does work for nutrition nothing fancy, no tricks, no lose weight quick schemes I have a guide that is really popular. It's called Nutrition 101 for Body Composition and it tells you how to set everything up for fat loss or muscle building. It gets you started. If you've never done this before or you want a refresher, you can get a free copy by clicking the link in the show notes or go to whitsawaitscom slash free for the Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide.

Philip Pape: 2:37

All right, let's get into the fun today and begin our story way back in 1918 with Dr Lulu Hunt Peters, a woman who would, unknowingly at the time, reshape how America thinks about food. Even that's stuck with us to this day Now. Peters was a doctor or physician in California. She struggled with weight her entire life. That we can all identify with. At her heaviest she was like 220 pounds, and in the early 1900s that we can all identify with. At her heaviest she was like 220 pounds, and in the early 1900s that was an outlier that made her stand out dramatically. This is a society that was just beginning to shift away from viewing plumpness as a sign of prosperity. We're aware of that. How in some cultures, even today, but definitely in the past, saw being heavier as a sign of wealth and prosperity. And Peter revolutionized weight loss 100 years ago by doing something nobody had thought of before.

Philip Pape: 3:30

She took the scientific concept of the calorie, which researchers used at the time to study malnutrition and make sure people got enough energy, and she reversed the purpose Instead of using calories to help people eat enough, she used them to help people eat less. And she wrote a book which you can still find copies of it online. It's called Diet and Health with Key to the Calories, and it was the first diet book to hit the bestseller list. We are talking about a woman who sold over two million copies at a time when there were no podcasts, there was no social media, there was no Amazon. There was no social media, there was no Amazon, there was no Barnes and Noble, it was just word of mouth, newspaper columns, and her book stayed in the top 10 bestsellers from 1922 to 1926. And it was number one for two years straight.

Philip Pape: 4:16

Peters turned food into math right, which that appeals to me as an engineer, and it's a lot of what we talk about when we talk about being data-driven. Instead of saying, you know, eat one slice of bread, she'd say, eat 100 calories of bread. She created formulas to calculate what she called ideal weight and daily calorie needs, where women could eat whatever they wanted as long as they stayed within their calorie budget. So what does that sound like? It sounds like if it fits your macros, doesn't it? And I don't mean that as a criticism either. It's more of okay, interesting, different way to think about it. Rather than quantities of food, it's energy levels of food in terms of calories, and that's still what we do today. When we talk about tracking your food with an app like Macrofactor, right, you're just measuring the calories and macros. So Peter's literally invented calorie tracking as a weight loss strategy and, just like today, it worked because it created awareness and accountability around the thing that matters when it comes to gaining and losing weight, and that's energy balance, and we're going to add nuance to this. And why? That's not the only thing, of course, before you get your hackles raised too much, just stick with me.

Philip Pape: 5:19

So Peters was. She was teaching nutrition, but she was also selling what you might call a moral philosophy because of how she framed dieting. She said it was a patriotic duty, and this was during World War I. She said that hoarding food in your body was as unpatriotic as hoarding food in your pantry and connected thinness to self-control, to modernity, to virtue, where being overweight wasn't just unhealthy, it was morally suspect. Okay, and that's the part we can question and that is stuck with us to today. The moral dimension of dieting, the idea that what you eat reflects your character, started at that time. So that is the big black mark that we're going to come back to in this episode. You know there's good and bad right, somebody who can do a great thing and also set us up for failure for years to come.

Philip Pape: 6:09

So at the time that she was teaching the country to count calories, we have the tobacco industry. Okay, and the tobacco industry was all about marketing. They saw opportunity in the 20s because the beauty standards were changing. You had the flapper look Go, google it Like the roaring 20s, the flappers. That flapper look, having a boyish figure was more fashionable for women. Women were looking for more ways to stay thin. It was all part of a new dieting culture. It was not something that started in the 80s. This started in the 1920s.

Philip Pape: 6:42

So we have George Washington Hill, president of the American Tobacco Company, and he owned Lucky Strike Cigarettes, very famous brand. Back then. In 1925, he launched what would become one of the most successful and controversial ad campaigns in history. Quote reach for a lucky instead of a sweet, reach for a lucky instead. We're talking about cigarettes, guys. And so there wasn't subtle marketing. It was like they were positioning cigarettes as a diet aid. Their ads had slim, elegant women. They promised that smoking would help you avoid the temptation of fattening sweets. So it's kind of like a, a habit swab, if you will like, instead of a sweet, you can have this cigarette in your mouth. They hired celebrities for endorsements. They claimed that something like over 20,000 physicians endorsed their cigarettes as less irritating to the throat. Right, we know later on things like menthol and all these positive associations with this. This wonderful cigarette came along in the marketing, but it was really successful because their sales skyrocketed by. I think they like tripled in one year because of this campaign. They went from 14 billion cigarettes in 1925 to 40 billion in 1930 and became the number one cigarette brand because of this focus on being slim.

Philip Pape: 7:55

And then so then we have another health health segment the confectionery industry, the candy industry right, so cigarettes and candy, right, the National Confectioners Association. They threatened legal action, arguing that candy was part of a balanced diet and that Lucky Strike was spreading dangerous misinformation. So look, we even had social media wars back then. Before social media, we had candy manufacturers arguing for nutritional balance and you had tobacco companies promoting cigarettes as health aids. And it sounds so absurd today if it weren't so harmful and long-lasting in the history of this country.

Philip Pape: 8:35

So eventually, the Federal Trade Commission, the FTC, they stepped in. They forced Lucky Strike to tone down their marketing and by 1930, their ads had disclaimers that said they didn't claim smoking would reduce weight or flesh or whatever, but that, rather than reaching for a cigarette instead of overindulging would help maintain a quote modern, graceful form. Lucky Strike had at that point successfully associated cigarettes with weight control in the mind of the public and anybody who's older than maybe a teenager, and probably, if you're a teenager, you're aware of the association between smoking and being thin. It's been around for a long time and the percentage of women smokers in America jumped from 6% in 1924 to over 15% by 1929, right, that's millions of new women smokers, probably most of them motivated by concerns about their weight. So you see how this is all coming together.

Philip Pape: 9:30

So while Peters was teaching calorie counting and Lucky Strike was pushing cigarettes, the overall diet industry was getting really creative with their marketing in a way that, like modern influencers, would probably admire, I'll just say, to put it cynically. So I'll give you an example the grapefruit diet. It was also known as the Hollywood diet or the 18 day diet. It emerged in the thirties. It had its root, I guess, in the late twenties, but emerged in the thirties. It required eating a whole grapefruit with every meal and the theory was that grapefruit contained special enzymes that could burn fat. But what ended up happening is people would have a very low calorie diet of like five to 800 calories per day of just eating a grapefruit as a meal. Right, that was one diet.

Philip Pape: 10:16

There was another one called that involved tapeworm pills. This is crazy. Advertisements at the time promoted pills containing tapeworm eggs, gross. The idea was that you would swallow the pill, the tapeworm would hatch in your intestines and then it would eat some of your food. For you. I hope I didn't lose you with how disgusting that is. You didn't even have to have portion control. You didn't have to have Ozempic, just eat a tapeworm egg and let the parasites do the work. So historians that are looking back at this in my research they debate whether the pills even contain tapeworms. Maybe they were just a scam, but the point is people were willing to intentionally ingest, you know, tapeworm eggs and infest themselves with parasites just to lose weight.

Philip Pape: 11:01

And then you had all the mechanical solutions that we laugh about. You had salons that were called reducing salons that popped up and they had vibrating belts. They had the electrical muscle stimulation. They had wooden barrel massagers. All of them promised to shake that fat right off your body. Women would pay to be strapped into a contraption that would jiggle them into slimness, all right. So when we look back from the modern perspective, what did the 20s get right? Because I think it's important to kind of look at both sides.

Philip Pape: 11:32

Hey, this is Philip, and before we continue, I want to talk about cookware. We all love to make our own food. I love nonstick pans. The problem is I've avoided them for years because when they get scratched, when they get heated, they can release microplastics, pfas small particles that can accumulate over time in the body and some studies have shown them to be linked to health issues. If you're optimizing your nutrition and making lots of food for you and your family at home, it doesn't make sense to compromise that with questionable cookware. So that's why I was interested when Chef's Foundry, who is sponsoring this episode, showed me their questionable cookware. So that's why I was interested when Chef's Foundry, who is sponsoring this episode, showed me their ceramic cookware. It's called the P600 and uses Swiss-engineered ceramic coating which has no Teflon, no PFAS, no plastic components. It is nonstick, it works on all stovetops, it goes straight into the oven All the things you need if you're trying to cook a lot of your meals at home. Right now you can get the P600 at 50% off by going to witsandweightscom slash chefs foundry. You'll also get a bunch of accessories with that. There's a whole page that explains what you'll get for that discounted 50% off. Go to witsandweightscom slash chefs foundry or click the link in the show notes. All right, let's get back to the show.

Philip Pape: 12:44

So we go back to Peters, who created the book. Her core insight about energy balance that was obviously important. That was spot on. Calories in versus calories out is still the fundamental principle of managing weight. And her emphasis on tracking, on awareness that was actually pretty revolutionary at the time and it's still the foundation of a dieting or a food awareness approach today. When it comes to tracking, some would argue that there's many other ways to do it and it comes down to psychology and this and that, but it's an important foundational concept. She also understood something many people today forget and that is you have to make sustainable changes you can live with long term. Because she didn't ban food groups, she didn't require you to do anything exotic with your recipes. She had a very practical and flexible approach. So those are good things right Now.

Philip Pape: 13:30

What about all the things they got wrong? Because that's pretty much where it ends. First is the what I call reductionist approach to nutrition, where you're only focusing on calories right, peter's, only focused on calories and you're not thinking about food quality and nutrient density and adequate vitamins and minerals, where you could technically follow such a plan and eat nothing but junk food, just like the podcast I just did, the all junk food diet versus clean eating right, it's that same thought. And you could eat nothing but candy and you could quote unquote lose weight. But you're gonna have a lot of other problems, right? And the same mistake shows up today with the misnamed if it fits your macros approaches. And so I want to say it that way, because if it fits your macros itself has been bastardized to mean not what it was originally intended, but we think of it often as just ignoring food quality eating whatever you want as long as it fits your macros, right. But we know that nutrition quality matters for your health, for your satiety and for the sustainability of your diet. So that's the first one. Is that reductionist approach.

Philip Pape: 14:30

The second problem from back then that sticks with us today is moralizing food choices, because they turned eating into a moral issue at the time, tying it to the war, where thin represented virtue and self-control, where overweight represented weakness and lack of character. And we still see that today. Right, not just the moralization of food I've talked that to death in other episodes and even the idea of cheat meals, but the idea that it's about willpower and discipline and that you are failing if you're not able to do this. The third thing is that the willingness to embrace dangerous quick fixes right, the cigarette, the tapeworm examples. I know they're extreme, but they were happening, especially the cigarettes. You know that mindset is still with us today.

Philip Pape: 15:18

The belief that there must be a hack, a shortcut, a secret that makes weight loss effortless. Right, we see that in detox teas, fat-burning supplements, extreme elimination diets. The products change over the years, but the underlying promise is the same that you can bypass the fundamentals of energy balance because that's not going to work for you, right? No, no, no, that's not going to work for you. No, I don't need to change my behavior, I just need the right product, the right shortcut.

Philip Pape: 15:41

So what we're really looking at here is the birth of diet culture as we know it today, before this decade we're talking about before the 20s being plump, being bigger, being full. It was often seen as desirable, it was a sign of health and prosperity, and it was the 1920s that created the modern association we still have between thinness and virtue, health, social status. And it happened for a few reasons. The first I already mentioned the flapper fashion that required that boyish, slender figure. World War I normalized restriction and rationing, and so it became easier to frame food limitation as a noble thing. You had the rise of mass media and advertising. That created new ways to sell products by making people dissatisfied with their bodies what we would call today a pain point.

Philip Pape: 16:30

And, probably most importantly, the 20s marked the moment when weight became seen as something completely under individual control, this calorie counting that Peters came up with. It suggested if you had enough knowledge and willpower, you could achieve any body size you wanted. And although this was kind of revolutionary, it was also problematic, as we see today, because it places the entire burden of weight management on individual choices, ignoring all the things that affect those choices, like genetics, hormones, environment, dozens of other factors that influence your metabolism and ultimately, yes, calorie balance and your body weight. But they might have upstream causes that then affect your, let's say, ability to make those choices. So we're still dealing with those consequences of the mental shift today.

Philip Pape: 17:20

When someone is struggling with their weight, right, we assume they're not trying hard enough or they don't have enough information, rather than recognizing this complex interplay of factors involved. I mean, consider just genetics alone, brain-related genes and appetite, and how powerful that can be when combined with the modern food environment. So all of these bizarre methods, all of these dangerous products, you know, we can look at them from afar and say, oh, that's insane. What were they thinking? But the challenge that people faced back then was the same one we face today. Right, we are still human beings and we still want to balance enjoying food and social eating with maintaining a healthy body weight in an environment that makes it very, very easy to overconsume. And that's why I think it goes beyond just energy balance. Energy balance is the downstream effect of many, many upstream causes.

Philip Pape: 18:08

Calorie counting does work, or tracking, I should say tracking your food works because it creates awareness and it creates structure. The cigarette ads were successful because they offered an alternative to food-based pleasure. The weird fad diets provided clear rules and a sense of control. Right, and so none of these were perfect solutions. They were attempts to solve a problem that industrialization and food abundance had created, that never existed before.

Philip Pape: 18:37

And so what's different today right now, in this moment, in 2025, is we have the scientific knowledge to do this well, to do this much better. We understand protein's role in do this much better. We understand protein's role in satiety and muscle. We know strength training increases your metabolic capacity, resilience and health. We understand the importance of sleep and stress management, having a healthy relationship with food, how important that is, as well as sustainability. But somehow we are still drawn to the same types of solutions that our great-grandparents fell for. We still look for the magic food, the secret supplement, the perfect workout that's going to make everything effortless. So the 1920s do teach us something important. That's why I made this episode.

Philip Pape: 19:17

The desire for quick fixes and simple solutions is deeply human, but also deeply misleading, because when you succeed, it's because you embrace fundamentals and principles that make it sustainable long-term, so that you can keep doing the thing long past getting some intermediate result. Peters, going back to again the author, she succeeded not because of a magic solution, but because she created a system for managing energy balance. It was a good start from that perspective, not from the other stuff she did regarding moralizing the food and moralizing being skinny, the people who fell for the cigarette ads and the tapeworm pills. They were looking for the quick fix instead of doing the work. And again, I'm not saying any one of these is 100%. One way or the other.

Philip Pape: 20:06

There's little bits and pieces we can take from history. There's lots of it we throw away, and what's left, we see how it holds up through the scientific method and through experimentation. So today we still have these magic pills. It might be intermittent fasting or keto or a carnivore diet or whatever new detox or other trend that promises to make weight management effortless. Obviously, we have now the weight loss medications, which I hesitate to put that exactly in the same category, even though the, let's say, certain type of person that might be seeking it out to avoid doing the lifestyle changes might fall under this category, as opposed to someone who's like you know what I want to do both. I understand the value of both, and one is a tool and one is a system I need to put in place.

Philip Pape: 20:47

Either way, the underlying appeal is the same that there's a shortcut around the fundamental work of building healthy habits. Not that, not that you have to have willpower and make certain choices necessarily, but just we have to find a way to make it so that you can make those choices, if that makes sense. So the problem is, what works is not exciting, it's not exciting. I try to make it exciting on the show, maybe you know, and once you get the result you realize how exciting it is. But we're talking nutrient quality, protein training. You know psychological aspects of behavior change, sleep management, stress, all that fun stuff, and it actually works. Those work right. You don't need tapeworms, thank God, and those things work All right.

Philip Pape: 21:25

So as we wrap up this journey through history, through 1920s diet culture, just think about the lens of history and how every generation thinks it has discovered the secret, the secret to easy weight loss. Right, the specifics always change, the methods change. The fundamentals are the same. That's what doesn't change Dr Lulu Hunt-Peters, who wrote the book. She got it right when she focused on energy balance and practical tracking. She got it way wrong when she ignored food quality and turned eating into a moral issue. The tobacco industry, I think, got it all wrong. Right, promoting cigarettes as a health aid. But they understood human psychology.

Philip Pape: 21:59

People want alternatives to restriction. It's just they provided a really awful alternative. The fad diet promoters, who still exist to this day. They always get it wrong because it's dangerous, it's a quick fix which has other negative side effects. But they also recognize people do want something simple and clear to understand. They don't want something too complex and confusing.

Philip Pape: 22:21

So that's where we come to full circle, here to wits and weights, where we have the knowledge to do better. Right, we can sure we can count calories when it's helpful, but we don't have to become obsessive. We can improve our body composition through strength training instead of some supplement or whatever. We can create sustainable habits, all of that stuff. But we can also simplify it at the same time and cut through there and give you the clarity of what to do next. Right, the goal is never to be perfect. It's never to find the one true thing or the one true diet. It's to build a sustainable nutrition approach and training approach that supports you, your health, your physique goals and, of course, your quality of life. So if you want to learn how to do that very clearly, to accelerate the results not a quick fix, but to accelerate efficiently how to go on that journey I'd love to help you in Wits and Weights Physique University.

Philip Pape: 23:11

That is not a quick fix program, I'm sorry to say. It is not a magic solution. It is not even a secret. Everything we do in there is talked about on this show. We just help apply it to you specifically to get it done and do it efficiently and get the result. For just $27 a month you will get what amounts to personalized, individualized nutrition planning, training, adjustments, live coaching, community accountability all of that stuff to take a nutrition plan and execute it and get the feedback as you get stuck along the way.

Philip Pape: 23:42

And if you join now, using the exclusive link in the show notes, I'm going to build your custom nutrition plan for free. That's normally an add-on, but I want to make it easier for you to get started and even further accelerate the process to doing what works. Go to the link in the show notes it's a special link in the show notes and join Physique University. Let's build something together that is sustainable for you. Let's stop chasing all the trends so that you can finally have the result and make it last. All right, until next time. Keep using your wits, lifting those weights and remember the best diet. Secrets aren't secrets at all. They are just fundamentals applied consistently over time. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Are Nonstick Pans Leaching Microplastics and Forever Chemicals Into Your Food? | Ep 359

Get Chef's Foundry P600 ceramic cookware at 50% off plus a complete guide on cookware materials and safety at:
witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry

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Do you cook with nonstick pans, microwave with plastic containers, or wonder about materials you drink out of?

Learn about the science behind 3 major categories of chemical exposure from cookware and food packaging: microplastics, PFAS ("forever chemicals"), and plasticizers like BPA.

While avoiding fear-mongering, we discuss legitimate concerns about how these compounds might affect hormones, inflammation, and long-term health when exposure accumulates over time.

Plus, learn practical steps to minimize exposure without losing your mind over every container in your kitchen.

Main Takeaways:

• Microplastics from scratched cookware and PFAS from nonstick coatings are legitimate concerns worth addressing through simple swaps

• The "dose makes the poison" cumulative exposure over time matters more than occasional contact

• Easy wins include replacing scratched nonstick pans, using glass containers for microwaving, and choosing ceramic or stainless steel cookware

• Your body's detoxification systems are enhanced by the same foundational health practices we always discuss (strength training, quality nutrition, adequate sleep)

Timestamps:

0:02 - 3 categories of chemical exposure from cookware
3:20 - Microplastics
5:21 - PFAS "forever chemicals"
6:56 - Plasticizers, BPA, and aluminum leaching
8:38 - How these exposures might affect you
10:38 - Recommended cookware
14:46 - Should you be concerned?
19:25 - 3 levels of kitchen safety
21:30 - Avoiding food safety anxiety
22:17 - Recap for cookware, storage, and water

Try Chef's Foundry P600 ceramic cookware at 50% off - Swiss-engineered ceramic coating with removable handles, no PFAS, no Teflon: witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry

Are Nonstick Pans and Containers Quietly Affecting Your Health?

When it comes to optimizing health, nutrition, and physique goals, most people think about calories, protein, and training. Few stop to consider something much more basic: the materials that touch your food before it hits your plate. Every pan, spatula, food container, or takeout wrapper has the potential to transfer trace compounds into your meals. This includes microplastics, PFAS (often called “forever chemicals”), and plasticizers such as BPA. These are not hypothetical. They are already in many kitchens. The real question is whether they matter enough to address, and if so, what you can do without overhauling your entire lifestyle.

Rather than stoking fear, it is worth looking at the actual evidence, the likely risk, and the simplest steps to reduce unnecessary exposure while still living in the real world.

Microplastics and Scratched Surfaces

Microplastics are plastic fragments smaller than 5 millimeters that can shed from cookware coatings, cutting boards, and plastic storage containers. In the kitchen, scratched nonstick pans and worn synthetic cutting boards are common sources.

Animal and lab studies suggest these particles may trigger inflammation, oxidative stress, or affect the gut barrier, although human long-term data is limited. The concern comes from cumulative exposure over many years, especially for people who cook most of their meals at home using high heat and nonstick surfaces.

While the actual dose in typical use is likely far lower than in lab tests, replacing old scratched pans and worn cutting boards is a simple way to minimize how much ends up in your food.

PFAS or “Forever Chemicals”

PFAS are synthetic compounds designed to repel water, oil, and stains. They are used in traditional nonstick coatings such as Teflon, in some fast food wrappers, microwave popcorn bags, and takeout containers. The two main concerns are:

1. Persistence. PFAS do not break down easily in the environment or in the body.

2. Potential Health Effects. Large-scale studies have linked higher PFAS levels with altered thyroid function, cholesterol changes, and hormone disruptions.

Older versions such as PFOA have been phased out, but newer versions are still being studied. Since cookware is one of the most frequent points of contact, choosing PFAS-free options can be a meaningful long-term improvement.

Plasticizers and Other Compounds

Plasticizers such as BPA and BPS are used to make plastics flexible and durable. They can be present in reusable bottles, food storage containers, and even the linings of cans. Phthalates, another group of plasticizers, are found in soft plastics such as cling wrap.

Some of these compounds are known endocrine disruptors in lab settings, meaning they can interfere with hormone receptors. While the human risk from everyday kitchen exposure is still debated, reducing contact is straightforward. Use glass or ceramic for storage and avoid microwaving food in plastic.

Practical Steps to Reduce Exposure

You do not have to replace your entire kitchen overnight. Instead, treat this like any other long-term upgrade and make the swap when you are already replacing or adding something.

• Cookware. Replace scratched nonstick pans. Choose stainless steel, cast iron, or high-quality ceramic. For example, I use ceramic-coated pans from Chef’s Foundry that are PFAS-free, non-chipping, and multi-purpose. If you want to check them out, go to witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry for 50% off.

• Food Storage. Use glass containers with silicone or rubber lids for reheating and storage. Avoid microwaving in plastic.

• Takeout and Packaged Foods. Transfer food from takeout boxes or bags into your own dishes before heating.

• Cutting Boards. Use wood or high-quality composite boards instead of heavily worn synthetic ones.

• Water. Consider a water filter and avoid leaving plastic bottles in hot cars.

Avoiding the Fear Trap

It is important not to let this turn into food safety anxiety. The body has impressive detoxification systems, including the liver, kidneys, and lymphatic system, that process and eliminate many compounds we encounter. The goal is not to panic over occasional exposure. Instead, make low-effort changes that reduce your total lifetime load.

When you focus on the fundamentals such as adequate protein, strength training, movement, sleep, and stress management, you build resilience. Kitchen material choices are a smaller pillar, but one that can complement your overall health strategy.

Final Thoughts

Microplastics, PFAS, and certain plasticizers are not the biggest threat to your health. They are worth addressing when it is simple and low-cost to do so. Start with the items you use most, such as your go-to frying pan and your meal prep containers, and choose materials that avoid unnecessary chemical contact. Over the years, these small decisions can add up, especially if you cook daily.

If you are in the market for new cookware, the Chef’s Foundry P600 ceramic system is a durable, PFAS-free option I recommend and personally use. You can check it out at witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

When it comes to cooking and preparing your food, there's one area most people aren't thinking about, and that is the materials that touch your food before it hits your mouth. I'm talking about microplastics that might be flaking off from scratched cookware, pfas, which are called forever chemicals from nonstick coatings and some plasticizers that might leach from food containers. And the question isn't whether these compounds exist in your kitchen. They do. The question is whether they're actually affecting your health, your hormones, your physique goals, things like that. So today we're going to separate the legitimate concerns from the fear-mongering, examine what the science shows about chemical exposure from cookware and packaging what I do personally and give you some steps to minimize risk without losing your mind over every container in your kitchen.

Philip Pape: 0:59

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're talking about something that we haven't covered before. It's at the intersection of nutrition, health and consumer safety, and that is chemicals that might be migrating from your cookware and your food packaging into your meals. And you might be thinking, wow, philip never really talked about this kind of stuff, because oftentimes it's in the realm of fear-mongering or selling you the idea that everything in your kitchen or you eat is toxic, and that is not what I'm doing today. Instead, I want to look at the actual evidence around microplastics, pfas, other compounds that could potentially affect your health. There's a lot of attention on these now and I personally in my family I don't want to be a hypocrite I have, over the years, gotten rid of, for example, teflon and nonstick cookware in favor of other materials. I've gotten rid of plastic Tupperware in favor of glass. I use glass water balls, things like that because I think there is a potential long-term concern here and I also think the bar is really low to make the changes. That could, you know, avoid any of the concerns altogether, versus other things like, let's say, doing a cold plunge every day or buying a sauna. That is in that 1% and is a high bar to change your behaviors. So I want to talk about what the research tells us and give you a framework today to make informed decisions about what touches your food, and I'll give you some specific recommendations of what to look for when you go shopping or you're looking to replace your cookware and kitchenware.

Philip Pape: 2:33

So the exposures of these materials. Again, I don't want to fear monger. They're not going to make or break everything, but they can impact some people more than others and the toxin or the poison is always in the dose. So for those of us who are meal prepping or cooking our food at home, which I highly encourage, you're eating eggs, you wanna use nonstick pans and such, you're using those materials a lot and so the material is touching your food in multiple different ways at high heat. It is definitely important to make smart choices and kind of stack your odds in your favor for the long term. So when we talk about chemical exposure from cookware and packaging, I'm going to break it into three main categories and understand the science of these is still developing, but we also have decades of research in some areas as well.

Philip Pape: 3:20

The first category is microplastics Very hot topic today. I see it everywhere. I subscribe to some magazines like Scientific American that are talking about it all the time. It's in the oceans, it's everywhere, right, whether it's a big concern is what's being discussed Now. These are very tiny plastic fragments. They're smaller than five millimeters. They can be released from synthetic materials through the use of those materials. Now, many of us just intuitively when you sit back and think about okay, we're making petroleum-based synthetic plastic compounds and everything in the planet is made from these things and it touches everything.

Philip Pape: 3:54

There is some just common sense, I'll say, behind that, whether you subscribe to that or not, as evidence that they're probably interacting with our food supply in some way. Right, but we know that they do to an extent. In your kitchen, what happens? Right? This comes from plastic containers, especially when they get scratched, worn out, nonstick coatings, even synthetic cutting boards right, we all have those synthetic cut and you've got scratches all over them. Well, what has come off from that? That has potentially gotten into your food as well, right? So what we know from the research, animal studies, lab work they're not always longitudinal, sometimes they're correlational. We've got to suss through all that. It's difficult, but what we think is that microplastics have some impact inside the body, whether it's inflammation, oxidative stress, disruption of the gut barrier, things like that and we don't have clear evidence of what these mean for long-term health at the exposure levels most of us experience. It's like how we've studied aspartame to death. We've studied artificial sweeteners and we know that the level of exposure of those is so high you don't need to be concerned. But the level of exposures to these microplastics may be lower to cause that concern, and many humans might be experiencing high levels because of how we use this cookware and the heat behind them, right? And so when they test these things in the studies, they often are using huge doses or higher order of magnitudes that you would get from you know, let's say, just cooking your eggs in a pan, but still the cumulative effect is where the concern is. So that's microplastics.

Philip Pape: 5:21

The second category is PFAS. Pfas and these are usually called forever chemicals. These are man-made substances that are designed to do amazing things, right, they repel water, they repel grease, they repel stains, and that's what you'll find in nonstick cookware, coatings like Teflon and fast food wrappers, microwave popcorn bags, even some takeout containers. And the concern with the PFAS is twofold. First is that they persist in the environment and in your body, right, they just don't break down, and that is the forever nickname, and that's a concern to me for sure. The second is that when we look at large population studies, there are correlations between higher PFAS levels and changes in the population of thyroid function, cholesterol levels, hormonal markers. And again, we have to watch out for interpretation, right? Because these studies can't necessarily account for all the lifestyle factors that might be driving both PFAS exposure and health outcomes. But still, the persistence of the compounds and the consistency of these findings across many different studies is concerning, and it has also led to regulatory action. Again, whether you trust governments or not, right, we're in a very heated climate when it comes to that right now. But we've looked at older forms of these chemicals, PFOA. Pfos are being phased out in favor of newer versions still being studied. It's kind of like, you know, refrigerant for air conditioning has evolved over years because we know it was poisoning the air, toxic to people, right? So we just we've studied these enough to see that these effects happen. So the first. So that's, that's the second category.

Philip Pape: 6:56

The third category is plasticizers and related compounds. So this would be BPA and BPS, which you've probably heard of, because there are a lot of companies marketing BPA-free hard plastic containers like for water bottles, and I personally use a glass water bottle. I don't even want to take a chance of any of these plastics, you know, leaching off in any way, especially if you send them through the dishwasher and they're experiencing heat. They can be on the linings of cans. You know people don't realize when you get a can of soda or beer or whatever. A lot of those cans, they're not just raw aluminum, they actually have a coating, a plastic coating, inside and if you're drinking multiple of those every day you're getting exposed to that Phthalates hard word to pronounce from very soft, flexible plastics. And then even aluminum can leach from uncoated cookware if you're cooking very acidic food.

Philip Pape: 7:46

So if you look at the research here, we know that some of these compounds can be endocrine disruptors, can impact hormone receptors, at least in laboratory resetting. So again, you, the real world, impact. How? How much is it for most people, you know, given our bodies can detoxify, I wonder that that that's where my skepticism comes from, but it's also where I say look, where can we make decisions that are easy in our life, that can avoid these concerns? And the cost benefit is there, knowing that there's an, a level of uncertainty, right Like, why take the chance if it's easy enough to just get glass versus plastic, or easy enough to get ceramic versus, you know, other coatings on your cookware? So I it isn't just theory, right Like, I think there's a practical perspective to this, for why I wanted to make this, this study.

Philip Pape: 8:38

And we talk a lot about fat loss. We talk about metabolism, insulin sensitivity, we talk about inflammation, things like that. Any one of these things could, systematically and through a cascade in your body, be affected by something like oxidative stress from microplastics, right? And it's not like that's the thing that's causing you not to lose fat. If you're listening to this, thinking this is a fat loss episode. No, that comes down to energy balance, consistency, other lifestyle factors, training, et cetera. That is outside the scope of today. But when we think of hormones, for example, et cetera, that is outside the scope of today. But when we think of hormones, for example, right, pfas levels correlated with lower testosterone or altered thyroid function, at least at the population level, I wouldn't be surprised if, over the longterm, we do discover these effects, because we are seeing much lower T in the population among men, hence the ranges have dropped. We're seeing fertility issues.

Philip Pape: 9:28

You know, people can't pinpoint a single root cause, but when, systematically, you're exposed to a lot of these things, you can call them toxins if you'd like. They're basically foreign substances that really shouldn't be in the body. The accumulation of these could actually be a concern, right, even if they're within normal variation based on what the studies have told us. If you're the type of person that uses these a lot more and cooks a lot more food at home and uses the microwave a lot more, then you might be of more concern than someone else. Longevity and overall health is probably where this is of most concern, because it's not one exposure we're concerned about, right, it's the accumulation over time, the cumulative load of stressors and I'll use the word inflammatory inputs basically just your body having to respond, right, the oxidative stress, your body having to deal with it, process it through your liver, process it at the cellular level. And if you're already optimizing the big pillars nutrition, training, sleep, stress, et cetera I do think this is one of those smaller pillars that can be helpful to just be conscious about, and that's why I wanted to make this episode. So let's do that. Let's let's talk about what you should practically consider doing.

Philip Pape: 10:38

That's easy, and the first one is cookware. So if you have old, non, if you have old scratched nonstick pans and the coating's flaking off, or you scratched, or just just that you scratch them a lot, I mean, when I cook, you know I've got, you know, either a spatula or fork or something scraping on in there and there could be small pieces that flake off on a regular basis. I would say that's worth replacing. I personally just don't use the traditional non-stick pans. What I use now it's actually from Chef's Foundry. It's a ceramic coating that doesn't chip and it has a lot of other cool features in the pans, like the handles come off and you can use it on different surfaces. You could put it in the oven. It's multi-use. I love multi-use stuff. Like we replaced our crock pot with the instant pot and also with another one that can do multiple functions, like a Dutch oven, right. So I love that kind of stuff because it's very efficient. So I would get something like the Chef's Foundry stuff and, by the way, they are a sponsor of this episode. So if you go to witsandweightscom slash Chef's Foundry, you can get 50% off Really good stuff. I use them myself.

Philip Pape: 11:44

If you love to cook eggs or you like to sear your meat and you want a nonstick surface love to cook eggs or you like to sear your meat and you want a nonstick surface, that is an easy change to make, right, that is an easy change to make. If you're already in the market for them. Definitely check those out, along with wherever else you're looking, amazon, walmart, wherever you're doing your shopping and when it comes to cookware. So let me go through the different materials. First, stainless steel is great. I have all clad for a lot of my stuff stainless steel. It's durable, it's non-reactive, it doesn't have any coatings You're good. But it's not non-stick right. So things will stick to it and that's the biggest not complaint. But like people who just want the convenience easy to clean, you know, easy to cook eggs and things like that it's not non-stick right. Cast iron is great. It has to be seasoned. It's really good for heat. It's great for things like steaks and grilling. It's naturally nonstick, but I've not known anyone, myself included, that can keep it that way for very long. So I wouldn't necessarily call cast iron nonstick per se. And then we get to the ceramic cookware and that's where it's a great material. I think ceramic's awesome. It avoids synthetic coatings entirely. Typically it could be more fragile, but, like I said, this particular product the P600, again go to witsandweightscom slash chefsfoundry. It's much more robust than that and it's 50% off. So check that out.

Philip Pape: 13:01

For food storage, the biggest win here is avoiding microwaving your food in plastic containers. Just don't do that. I mean, my wife convinced me of this years ago. You can get really nice glass containers that have rubber tops and then if you're going to store food, I think that's that's a little less of a concern to use plastic right, cause you're not heating it up, and you can get BPA free, very hard plastic containers. So I mean we just use the glass for everything. It's going to last forever. I mean we just use the glass for everything. It's going to last forever. And the reason is the heat and the fat increases the migration of compounds from the plastic into your food, especially soft Like I can't. I cringe a little bit thinking about this really soft plastic basically melting and re hardening right next to my food in the microwave. I don't know. I mean that's just more of a whether there's evidence on it or not, and I think there is, I'm just not going to do it right. So glass or ceramic containers eliminate this concern and oftentimes they work better in terms of heating. So try those out.

Philip Pape: 13:57

If you use storage containers, again, look for BPA-free. Always replace containers that are starting to show wear or it depends on how often you're doing it. But there are certain wrappers and like microwave popcorn bags and some takeout containers that they have a grease resistant coating inside that are treated with PFAS, these forever chemicals. So be careful, you know, and definitely don't heat them up in there, right? Occasional exposure is probably fine, but if you're eating takeout multiple times a week and I know some people who just don't wanna cook and they eat out a lot, which people who just don't want to cook and they eat out a lot, which isn't great for your waistline when it comes to fat loss usually, but if you do, just watch out for those.

Philip Pape: 14:46

So you might be wondering okay, philip again is the evidence-based guy he's talking about, with a lot of caveats are we sure about these health effects? Are they of a decent enough magnitude to worry about this? And I think it's a fair question, question that we should always be asking that question about everything in this industry, and I'm a fan of informed decisions and understanding even the small impacts that could exist out there, so that you can then decide. You know, if someone says broccoli is toxic because it has certain compounds, I'm going to ask you how much broccoli are you eating and does it affect you in any negative way? And then, thirdly, if, if you're not eating that much and it doesn't affect you are much broccoli are you eating and does it affect you in any negative way? And then, thirdly, if, if you're not eating that much and it doesn't affect you, are you still concerned or will it make you feel better to avoid broccoli, but without fear, mongering it, right?

Philip Pape: 15:25

It's very individualized and so when it comes to your cookware, if you're going to replace something, anyway, I would look. I would be thinking consciously okay, I've got a scratch pan, I need something new. Okay, let's go shopping. Let me listen to Philip's episode again on what to look for. You know, with the ceramic cookware, with the glass containers, things like that. Not to be paranoid, but just because it's easy to do, it might as well, right, just gets the uncertainty out of that. That's my thought on this.

Philip Pape: 15:59

And when we're talking about forever, chemicals, microplastics that leach from nonstick services, and you are meal prepping and you're making food from home and you like nonstick pans, you're using it a lot, and that's my point. You're using it a lot because I do too, and I just got rid of that stuff. So, again, that's why I was interested when I hooked up with Dave at Chef's Foundry. So they are just full disclosure. They're sponsoring a string of episodes because I wanted to connect with them and share this change that people can make toward their meal prep. So it's called the P600. It's a ceramic cookware system. It's basically three pans with some other goodies that come along. 50% off, go to whitsawastecom slash Chef's Foundry.

Philip Pape: 16:33

And the reason I like these is because I've been skeptical a long time about ceramic anything because it chips. It's why we didn't get ceramic. What do you call it a sink? When we built our house, we went for straight up stainless steel and a little bit is unfounded, but not always, because I've been to people's houses and they've got chips in there. They've got chips in their sink and I'm like, well, you're putting heavy stuff in there and washing it all the time. But if we talk about cookware, the coating a ceramic coating like the one I'm recommending here it doesn't have Teflon, doesn't have PFAS, doesn't have any plastic, right? That's the basic thing we're looking for and it's Swiss engineered, which I don't know what that means, other than it seems highly, highly durable and doesn't chip Like stuff has on. It doesn't chip, it is genuinely non-stick and it'll just stay that way forever.

Philip Pape: 17:20

You want eggs slide off, you want to sear protein and, you know, steer your roast on there at high heat and just easily clean it, like that is super convenient. And then again, I mentioned multi-purpose, this one. It works on induction as well as gas, which I know most pans do, but some, some pans have a hard time with induction, like electric stoves. And then the really cool thing about these is it has removable handles. So not only does it make it easy to store so you're not like flipping them around and getting them all locked in with each other with the handles but you can put it in the oven without a handle, like if you guys like to use oven mitts and you don't have a lot of room in your oven. It's really helpful for that. So performance and design is pretty cool.

Philip Pape: 18:03

As an engineer, I like to see something that is high quality, that serves what you want but also is multifunctional. So right now they're offering the P600 at 50% off and these free accessories. You go to witsandweightscom slash chef's foundry and, whether you grab their cookware or not, check out the page because they have a guide there about cookware materials. You know the safety. That complements what we're talking about today. Check it out, witsandwheatscom slash chefs foundry.

Philip Pape: 18:29

All right, let me continue here and talk about the regulatory environment for a second, and I know again, there's a lot of mistrust right now about government agencies and administrations and whatnot. The food safety agencies here in the US and in Europe have been aware of PFAS and microplastics for many, many years and they're still trying to update the guidelines and regulations. This stuff never ends right. The challenge that I found looking into this is toxicology testing wasn't designed for a couple areas that they're trying to evolve to. One is the persistent compounds that accumulate over time. Right, a lot of this testing is acute, or it's what am I trying to say? It's like isolated. Right, it's hard to look at the long-term impacts of compounds that accumulate. It's also hard to look at mixtures of chemicals interact in what you'd say are complex ways, so regulation is always catching up to the science. Then, that creates uncertainty for all of us, and my goal at Wits and Weights is to give you a little more clarity.

Philip Pape: 19:25

Ceramic cookware, glass containers, glass water bottles is a great place to start. And the compounds that we've been discussing today we know a lot about them. They've been used for decades. Right, I'm not gonna fear monger over some massive health problems they're gonna cause, but if you're using them a lot, it's worth being concerned, especially from the endocrine disruption and the oxidative stress perspective, and you could always test yourself before and after. I don't expect you're gonna see a huge difference in the short term. Long term, though, I think it could help, you know.

Philip Pape: 19:59

Let's talk about your hierarchy of kitchen safety. Just to wrap this up, level one is basic food safety. Use the right cooking temperature, avoid cross-contamination, wash your hands right, stuff like that. If you get eggs from chickens, like we do, we wash our eggs to avoid, you know, any salmonella or anything like that, so you don't get those acute illnesses, those bugs, those food poisonings, things like that that none of us love. So that's level one.

Philip Pape: 20:24

Level two is, I'll say, quality food and ingredients. Right Now, again, it depends on what you can afford and I actually spoke to a rancher on the show not long ago about beef and organic and all the different labels. And really, if you, if you get whole foods, that's a huge step up right to begin with, regardless of someone's claim as to their quality. But it's up to you to kind of decide okay, what is quality for me and why am I choosing this food, without, again, without the fear-mongering. And then level three is what we're discussing today and that's just minimizing external exposures to things like chemicals, all these, all these great products we make over the year, over the decades. Unfortunately, some of them have things that might be getting into our food that provide benefits over the longterm. So why not reduce your exposure to those? And I would say it's a hierarchy, so you focus on level one, then level two, then level three.

Philip Pape: 21:09

If you're looking for new cookware, check out the guys at chef's foundry, witsandweightscom, slash chef's foundry. And then, before we wrap up, I want to address the psychological aspect here because I don't want you to develop anxiety around food safety. I don't want you to develop that. Okay, and I know some of the language is marketed that way and that's marketing. That's marketing and I hope I haven't used that language myself.

Philip Pape: 21:30

If you're worried about everything you do every day, that's going to cause you stress. Right, if you focus on the big pillars make your own food, eat adequate nutrition, train, you know, maintain your social connections and relationships those are the best ways to kind of keep that stress down. The goal here is informed awareness, not hypervigilance. So just to recap, for cookware, replace your nonstick pans when they're scratched, when the coating is degrading, or if you're looking for new cookware, consider stainless steel, cast iron or my favorite, ceramic WoodsonWeightscom slash Chef's Foundry. Check those guys out. Don't panic about using something else occasionally, right, especially newer versions that may not have some of these chemicals. Things are always changing, but if you want something long-term, stainless steel, cast iron, ceramic are a great way to go For food storage.

Philip Pape: 22:17

Use glass or ceramic when you microwave, replace plastic when it's cloudy, cracked or showing wear, and you know it's less of a concern storing in the fridge versus heating things up For takeout, for packaged foods. Just be aware of the frequency and like what these things are coming in and transfer the food into your own containers, plates, bowls, things like that. If you're gonna heat it up, use the glass. And then for water you could use a filter, because we didn't even talk about microplastics potentially in water. I personally have well water so I'm lucky because I avoid all that stuff, even though we do have a couple of filters on that. Tap water in most developed countries is quite safe, but I say that with a big asterisk because we know Right, don't leave plastic water bottles in hot cars, for example. That could heat them up Right, and the research on this stuff is evolving really quickly, and five, 10 years from now we're going to have maybe more long-term studies, maybe some more better analytical methods on for the toxicology and things like that, and so I just don't know where it's all going to go.

Philip Pape: 23:20

But today these are the things you can do. I hope I gave you guys the right amount of nuance, because your body's ability to detoxify and process and eliminate compounds like that is pretty amazing, but sometimes you know there's a little too much load based on these wonderful inventions that humans have made when they interact with our food. And so you know the best way you can support yourself is living well, moving, eating mostly whole foods. You know you have a liver that detoxifies, you have a kidney, you have a really strong gut, you have a lymphatic system, and they're all improved when you have good foundational health practices, like we talk about on this show, and so your body can handle a lot of this. Right, you should be strength training that's one of the best things for inflammation and circulation and supporting your detoxification and your organs. Believe it or not, you should be moving around. You should be eating a lot of protein and whole foods right. Your liver needs the amino acids for what it does. You need lots of sleep, you know. You need to clear that metabolic waste from your brain by getting enough sleep. We haven't even talked about that too much on the show. It makes sense, however, at the same time, to minimize unnecessary exposure when it's practical when it's practical. So have a healthy, resilient body and then complement with some of these informed choices.

Philip Pape: 24:42

So I want to leave you with one final thought before this episode gets too long, and that is that in our modern world, we are exposed to lots and lots of synthetic compounds that didn't exist 100 years ago. Some of these exposures are probably not a big deal. Some might actually be helpful, and then some might pose risks. So we want to have critical thinking skills to evaluate these based on evidence rather than fear. Make simple changes where they make sense and focus your energy on the factors that have the biggest impact on your health when it comes to what touches your food quality materials. Don't let perfect be the enemy good enemy of the good, you know, and just pay attention, folks, just pay attention. It's all about daily choices, all right.

Philip Pape: 25:20

So if you found this episode helpful and you're considering upgrading your cookware. Anyway, I mentioned Chef's Foundry earlier, their P600 ceramic system. It eliminates all these coatings that we've been discussing. Any of the microplastics just makes it easy. It's an easy choice. Definitely, shop around, tell me what you use, send me an email, hit me up on Instagram. I love something that is multifunctional, that looks good, that works well and that cooks my eggs without sticking to the pan. That's it, especially what we do in my family, where we cook multiple batches of eggs in a row and you know how that can get really nasty if it's a traditional like steel pan. So quality cookware, good performing, you know food, food prep hardware, all that good stuff. Go for it. Until next time, keep easing your wits, lifting those weights and remember, when it comes to what touches your food, quality matters, what's on your plate matters, how you cook your food matters and, most importantly, how you show up for yourself. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Managing GLP‑1 Side Effects for Weight Loss Without Losing Muscle (Justin Silver) | Ep 358

Get 10% off SymptoGuard to manage GLP‑1 side effects and stay consistent with your eating and training.

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Are GLP-1 drugs like Ozempic secretly stalling your progress? Why are so many users quitting despite major weight loss?

I talk with Justin Silver, founder of SymptoGuard, who watched his father battle severe Ozempic side effects that nearly took his life. Justin shares the real reasons users struggle on GLP-1s and how these can derail your fitness and muscle goals even while losing weight. If you're taking or considering GLP-1s, this episode will help you manage side effects, protect your protein intake, and make the drugs actually work for you.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 – Intro
2:13 – Age, side effects, and body stress
4:49 – Justin’s father's Ozempic story
6:16 – What’s really causing the distress
8:23 – Lifestyle habits reduce symptoms
11:43 – Top 2 side effects that derail progress
14:15 – The problem with food noise
19:02 – What’s in SymptoGuard and why
21:57 – Clinical results: 50% less nausea
25:24 – GLP-1 trends: fewer injections, more side effects
28:44 – What doctors need to understand
33:32 – Where to learn more and get support

Episode resources:

• Visit witsandweights.com/symptoguard to learn more, view the ingredient label, etc.

• Instagram: @symptoguard and @thejustinsilver 

• Facebook:  @Symptoguard

• Youtube: @SymptoGuard 

Protect Muscle While Managing GLP-1 Side Effects

As GLP-1 medications become a standard tool for weight loss, many users face nausea, fatigue and gastrointestinal discomfort that can derail strength training and protein intake. If you rely on drugs like Ozempic or Wegovy to shift the needle on body composition, you also need a plan to preserve muscle mass and maintain performance. Below you’ll find practical, evidence-based strategies to tackle side effects, support your nutrition, and keep your workouts on track.

Before diving into tactics, remember that one in seven Americans now uses a GLP-1 medication and over half of them stop within a year. Side effects rank as the second biggest reason for quitting. By addressing symptoms proactively, you can improve adherence and protect the muscle you worked so hard to build.

Understanding GLP-1 Medications and Their Impact on Muscle

GLP-1 drugs work by suppressing appetite and slowing gastric emptying, which helps reduce calorie intake. However this slowed transit time also means nutrients and water move through your digestive tract more slowly. Common physiological effects include:

• Reduced absorption of calories and protein

• Dehydration from lower fluid intake

• Electrolyte imbalance due to altered digestion

If you do not replace lost nutrients, your body may draw on muscle tissue to meet energy needs. That increases the risk of lean mass loss and slows your metabolic rate, making long-term fat loss harder.

Common Side Effects and How They Affect Your Routine

Before you can protect muscle you need to know which symptoms cause the most interruption:

• Nausea and dizziness often flare up after each injection or first thing in the morning

• Constipation or diarrhea result from slowed movement through the gastrointestinal tract

• Fatigue and low energy stem from lower caloric and fluid intake

These effects can make you skip training sessions, reduce protein servings or cut back on overall food volume. Over weeks and months that adds up to less muscle protein synthesis and a drop in strength.

Evidence-Based Strategies to Tame Side Effects

Rather than juggling half a dozen separate supplements, choosing a combined formula can simplify your routine and target multiple pathways at once. Look for a product that includes:

• Probiotics and prebiotics to support healthy gut flora and regularity

• Vitamin B12 and Coenzyme Q10 to boost cellular energy production

• Ginger root and magnesium to calm nausea and relieve mild cramps

In a double blind clinical trial with more than 120 participants, those using an all-in-one supplement reported a 50 percent reduction in gastrointestinal discomfort and nausea compared to placebo. Improved comfort means better consistency in both nutrition and training.

Nutrition Tactics to Preserve Muscle Mass

Even with side effects under control, defending lean tissue requires focused eating strategies:

• Hit 1.6 to 2.2 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight daily. Distribute intake over 3 to 5 meals to maximize muscle protein synthesis.

• Choose easy-to-digest protein sources such as Greek yogurt, cottage cheese, lean poultry and fish when appetite is low.

• Use protein supplements (whey isolate or collagen peptides) immediately after workouts or during mild nausea to ensure adequate amino acid delivery.

• Monitor fiber and fluid balance to support gut function. Aim for soluble fiber-rich foods like oats or bananas in small portions to avoid overloading the system.

Tracking your macronutrients and hydration can highlight gaps early and prevent catabolism of muscle tissue.

Lifestyle Adjustments for Consistency

Small tweaks in movement and routine can reduce side-effect severity:

• Incorporate light exercise such as daily walking or gentle cycling to stimulate digestion and circulation.

• Hydrate consistently with water or electrolyte blends to prevent lightheadedness and fatigue.

• Adjust injection timing under medical guidance. Evening dosing may allow overnight symptom resolution and smoother mornings.

• Build accountability through coaching, group support or nutrition-training apps so you stick with meals and workouts even when side effects strike.

A reliable daily routine reduces the chance that discomfort will derail your progress.

Supplement Support

When you need targeted relief, simplified dosing makes all the difference. SymptoGuard combines helpful, evidence-based ingredients like probiotics, B12, CoQ10 and ginger into a single formula that addresses nausea, GI distress, and low energy to reduce supplement costs. For 10% off (the already-discounted price), visit witsandweights.com/symptoguard.

By integrating a solution like SymptoGuard with smart nutrition and lifestyle habits, you create a system that keeps side effects from standing between you and your strength goals.

Bringing It All Together

Managing GLP-1 side effects is not about masking symptoms with the most powerful medications. It is about combining proven supplements, focused nutrition and consistent movement into a cohesive plan. When you tame nausea, optimize protein intake and maintain hydration, you protect muscle mass and ensure that weight loss does not come at the expense of strength.

For many, adding a purpose-built supplement like SymptoGuard is the last piece of the puzzle that turns a difficult journey into a sustainable transformation.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

One in seven Americans are now on GLP-1 drugs like Ozempic and Wagovi, but here's what doctors aren't telling you Over half of users quit within a year, and a third of those quit because of difficult side effects that disrupt their training, their protein intake and thus their ability to maintain muscle mass when trying to make the necessary lifestyle changes. In parallel, my guest today watched his father get prescribed 19 different pills just to manage his ozempic side effects, and that nightmare sparked him to identify ways to manage them proactively. You'll discover why nausea and fatigue from GLP-1s aren't just uncomfortable but actively work against your health and fitness goals, the clinical data behind supplementation to help with these side effects, and tips to stay consistent with your routine and progress while dealing with these medications. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:04

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm very excited to be discussing a topic that affects millions but gets very little attention in the space, and that's the impact of side effects when taking GLP-1s and what you can do about it. My guest is Justin Silver. He's a serial entrepreneur, founder and CEO of SymptoGuard, which he created after watching his father suffer through months of debilitating side effects hospital trips from Ozempic Now. Justin's background obviously gives him a unique perspective on both the business and personal sides of this huge health trend, and he's here to share what he's learned about the real world impact of these drugs and what we can actually do about it. So today you're going to learn the latest clinical research about managing these effects, specific strategies to protect your consistency, your training, your nutrition and thus, of course, your muscle mass if you're taking or planning to take these. And, justin, I just want to thank you so much for coming on the show.

Justin Silver: 2:02

Yeah, it's an honor to be here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to discuss this with you. I think we have the opportunity to help millions of Americans and I'm excited to do it.

Philip Pape: 2:13

So let's start right off with talking about side effects and how big of an issue that is. Like if you had to create a pie chart of all the reasons people maybe quit the drugs or have issues with these, where would side effects fit into that?

Justin Silver: 2:25

So side effect? Someone already created the pie chart. Thankfully I don't need to be that guy. Side effects are the number two reason that people stop taking a GLP-1. Number one is actually having to do with injection frequency both the fear, the frustration and just having to deal with needles, even the ones that automatically go in. Injection frequency and fear is the number one reason people stop taking the GLP-1. And side effects are a close number two. They can have deep impact for people, especially the older you get, the more the side effects tend to impact people. So when you're talking about people in their 50s, 60s and 70s for them is a truly pressing issue.

Philip Pape: 3:08

So let's talk about what they are, why it affects people when they're older, because I do like those demographic segments, because it kind of gives us sometimes an insight into other things, because we do that all the time when we talk about health, longevity, training and so on. So tell us more about the side effects. Which ones are the most common, perhaps?

Justin Silver: 3:29

and then why the age difference? When it comes to people who are older, they've often been in the same way of doing things for decades. So if you suddenly are 25 or 30 or 35, your ability and your body's ability to change and deal with eating less, you know dealing with a different speed of your, you know the food moving through digestive tract. You're able to just deal with that a little bit better. Your body is more able to cope with those differences. I liken it to pregnancy. You know if a person in their early 20s gets pregnant, you know they have that kid. They walk out of the hospital the next day, assuming all goes well. But if you're 40 years old and you're having a baby, regardless of how successful or healthy you are and how healthy the baby is, it's still a big impact on your body. It's the same with GLP-1s, and so if you're losing 100 pounds at 65 years old and you've spent the past 35 years living a relatively sedentary life and overeating constantly, the impact is going to be much, much bigger.

Philip Pape: 4:30

Yeah, so that makes sense, and I know you have a personal story we alluded to in the intro here with your father that led to him taking a bunch of different medications to try to deal with the side effects and go to the hospital. I'm wondering if that would be a good story to segue into. What I'm curious about is the side effects, how they cascade and what you learn from with your father's experience?

Justin Silver: 4:53

essentially, yeah, of course. So my dad got notification from his doctor when he was 62 years old and he said unless you can lose 100 pounds, you're not going to see your next birthday. Type 2 diabetic, morbidly obese. And he was having this experience where either he changed his lifestyle significantly or he wasn't going to make it. And so we took a step back as a family, heard about Ozempic. He started taking Ozempic and within nine months he lost 100 pounds For him, truly a life-changing drug, something that's allowed him to survive and, you know, to become a healthier person.

Justin Silver: 5:29

But losing 100 pounds, you know, in your early 60s, is not a very simple or very easy thing on the body. And so, you know, he faced debilitating side effects nausea, dizziness, fatigue. He would go to the restroom you know, use that and then, when getting up, he would face that same nausea, that dizziness. He would end up passing out and my mom would find him on the floor passed out, and have to call an ambulance to come get him because she thought he was dead. He would, of course, go to the hospital and the hospital would recommend different supplements each time that he could take to help combat this nausea, this dizziness, this fatigue. And so he was taking everything from chromium to CoQ10, prebiotics to probiotics and more, and in the end he was taking 19 pills every single morning, and I knew there had to be a better way.

Philip Pape: 6:18

Okay, and physiologically, why is there so much distress? Is it the rapid change that leads to this cascade and the body just can't quite handle it through the liver, the thyroid, all of the systems that are supposed to handle load and stress, or what's going on there?

Justin Silver: 6:33

Yeah, so it's across the board. So some of it is from the actual drugs themselves. Slowing down your GI tract allows your body to absorb more nutrients from that food. That's great, you know. You're not, you know wasting as much, essentially. But when you slow that down, it not only pulls out the nutrients but it can also pull out the water and that could lead to constipation. You also are, you know, getting the actual side effects of your body changing. So suddenly you have gaps in your nutrition because you used to eat a you know 3,800 calorie diet that, while you know overeating and unhealthy, it generally filled your nutritional needs. And now suddenly your hunger is evaporated, your food cravings are minimized and your seeking of nutritional food might not be all there. So your body is changing. You're losing weight, you're not consuming enough food and oftentimes there are gaps in that nutrition. So, across the board, you're getting just a massive change in your body and your mind and the side effects are a result of all of that.

Philip Pape: 7:41

So that makes a lot of sense. Constipation you know the gut issues that are happening. I imagine your microbiome.

Philip Pape: 7:47

We don't even begin to understand that yet and what's happening, even the body changing, I mean even when you're doing it with just lifestyle. We know that you have to be aware of, okay, if you're in a big calorie deficit, not to have malnutrition, to eat enough fiber and nutrients and everything. So I'm curious are there certain patients? Okay, you mentioned age what about the lifestyle differences? And what I mean by that is I'm sure there are a lot of people on Ozempic that are trying to lift weights and eat more protein and there are a lot that aren't. Do we see segmentation in that regard, where the side effects are minimized a bit from natural lifestyle changes before we go to then supplementation?

Justin Silver: 8:26

Yeah, absolutely.

Justin Silver: 8:27

I think you know, especially if you're younger and so your body's able to change a little bit easier.

Justin Silver: 8:33

If you're eating a nutrition filled diet that's got protein and it has, you know, a good mix of vegetables, if you're doing all of that, you might still face some side effects, but you lower the likelihood drastically. So when I talk to peers and I say, hey, if you're taking a GLP-1 and you're 25 to 35 years old and you're doing everything right, the likelihood that you're going to have side effects is actually quite low. And you're not really somebody who is a SymptoGuard prime customer or someone who that should be top of mind where we're targeting as someone who is, you know, in their forties, fifties, sixties, seventies. These people have spent a lifetime of a sedentary lifestyle. Generally, you know, nutrition is not where it could or should be, and we are helping to fill those gaps for those people because you start losing a little bit of weight. Taking a GLP-1 does not mean you are a healthier person. It's a whole bundle of stuff that can make you healthy and SymptoGuard plugs in to be part of that equation.

Philip Pape: 9:38

for millions of Americans, hey guys, I want to give a quick shout out to SymptoGuard for sponsoring today's episode and, honestly, it's a perfect fit given everything Justin and I have been digging into. If you're taking a GLP-1 med like Ozempic or Manjaro, you probably know that these side effects can hit really hard Nausea, low energy, digestive issues, nutrient absorption and that can make it tough to stay on track with your training, with your protein, the lifestyle changes that you're trying to make, and just feel like yourself when going through this process. What I love about SymptoGuard is it was built for these with ingredients that you would recognize, that I would vouch for, like B12 and probiotics and ginger. It's a solid evidence backed option for some of the side effects, like nausea. In fact, in a 2025 study, 92% of users reported reduced nausea compared to just 24% on placebo, and that's a big deal when you're just trying to be consistent and when the side effects are the number one reason most people stop taking these meds. So if you are on this journey and you want to feel better while preserving muscle and staying consistent, give SymptoGuard a try. Check it out, just click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash SymptoGuard for 10% off your order. That's witsandweightscom. Slash SymptoGuard or click the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 11:00

Now back to our conversation with Justin. Okay, and that makes sense. I appreciate the nuance because I definitely have spoken to people who are. You know, there's conflicts of interest. We people have to have their skepticism up, and that's I wanted to bring you on, because I know that you do your best to support all of this with what the evidence says, and you're trying to help people who have a legitimate concern with a tool that they're trying to use in combination with lifestyle and it's not for everyone, so we want to be honest about that. But also, I appreciate you saying like look, a lot of people face these side effects and it's the number two reason people quit and this is the tool we want to use, so let's try to make it all work together. Having said that, when we talk about the quitting from the side effects, what does the segmentation data show in terms of which side effect, or two, is most prevalent and causes people to quit?

Justin Silver: 11:46

Yeah. So the two that stick out are nausea and what is defined as general GI tract discomfort, gi, gastrointestinal. You know this is anything to do with your stomach, your bowels, it, you know, ranges, constipation and diarrhea. It's all that discomfort all in one. So nausea and GI tract discomfort are the two biggest issues. They impact you when you wake up, when you go to bed. They have that kind of consistent feeling, things like dizziness, that often comes at a certain moment when you might be dehydrated because again, your craving for even water is minimized and so you might be dehydrated. So it hits you when you get up or when you sit down. Certain movements might trigger that, but you're not seeing dizziness, just if you're sitting down on the couch. And you know, I think for all of these side effects they have their moments where they would flare up the most. But generally that kind of consistent nausea, especially nausea post-injection or nausea in the morning, as well as constant GI tract discomfort, those are the hardest hitting side effects.

Philip Pape: 12:50

Yeah, I could imagine that being an unpleasant feeling just from having one day of GI distress from like a bad protein bar. I can't imagine you know months and months when you're trying to use this. So then that raises the question for people who don't quit the drug and just deal with the side effects. What does it then lead to while you're on the drug? Does it reduce the efficacy? Does it change your eating and lifestyle patterns as a result?

Justin Silver: 13:13

Yeah, I mean you think about it like let's imagine you've had nausea all the time, right, I think?

Justin Silver: 13:19

you know, you wouldn't want to eat. Yeah, I mean, that would be just a bad way to live. You know, a big part of the reason people are taking these drugs in the first place is they want to live a healthier life. Right, weight loss is the precursor to living a healthy life. Just seeing a number on a scale is meaningless If you can't walk and function. People are losing weight in order to spend time with their grandchildren, their children, in order to move around the world, to get in and out of their car easier, to feel good, and so that's what this all comes down to. And so these side effects which are, you know, on your pathway to feeling good, if they're making it really hard to do that, you can imagine. You know you stop taking the drugs. It doesn't make it a pleasant experience and it could, just, you know, derail that progress. So it's really about how do we live this healthy life?

Philip Pape: 14:08

And does it impact specific macro or micronutrients? And what I mean by that is do you get less of an appetite for certain things, like less of an appetite for protein, or you know anything, in particular fruit, I don't know.

Justin Silver: 14:19

Yeah. So there's a concept in the GLP-1 world called food noise. It's basically that voice in your head that's saying you need to be eating food and then when you walk past our world, our environment and big food that has kind of trained us to seek food, you see McDonald's as you're driving through your town and then you suddenly are craving physically craving McDonald's. You think about the French fries, the burgers, the soda, all of those things. This minimizes that across the board. What it does not do is make you a healthy eater, and so that's still on you. But I believe in the American people and I think that most people want to eat healthy.

Justin Silver: 15:00

The reason we're not eating healthy, we're not living a healthy life, is because we're being chemically trained to not do that right. There's billion dollar you know a hundred billion dollar corporations whose goal is to make you buy more food and not be satiated by it. So we're all living in that world. We're chemically trained and addicted to this food. But now, suddenly, if you didn't crave it, if you weren't addicted and you could give yourself that choice, I think that many Americans are making the right choice and they're having a good protein filled meal but a diversity of food in there. If you're given the chance to escape that chemically addicted side of this, you have the potential to make those good choices. So there isn't necessarily a oh. Suddenly you're not craving fats, you're not craving carbohydrates and you're going to crave protein. It just limits that completely protein. It just limits that completely. So your cravings go down in totality. But then it becomes an easier choice to eat right, if you're suddenly not chemically forced to eat incorrectly.

Philip Pape: 16:11

Yeah, yeah, and I would agree with that characterization. I think that you hit on one of what I see as three major prongs with this, the first being what you just said, which is the food environment and the food noise, and I think that's coupled with what makes it very difficult for some individually, which is the brain-related genetics that we are well aware of now with appetite we had Dr Stephan Guionet on the show talking about this great guy in the field, right, researching this. And then the other prong would be the yo-yo dieting and the kind of dieting history we know that there's an exacerbated impact of a dysfunctional appetite and hunger signals from a repeated history of dieting. So I'm just kind of agreeing with you that when you combine all those, for some people it's such a huge hill to climb to get over that that they just need a tool to say, okay, let's take away that the noise, focus on the signal, and then we can build our lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 17:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Having said that, even when they're doing that and then they have side effects, do the side effects then cause them to make any different choices with their eating, for example? I'm thinking like nutrient malabsorption you mentioned. So does it affect anything special that is worth mentioning what I'm getting at.

Justin Silver: 17:22

Yeah, I mean, think about it like this If you're nauseous, you're probably going to not eat enough, and so it might not necessarily be the choices. But the situation is pretty simple. If your stomach is really hurting and you're having issues going to the bathroom, you're going to eat less. It's just like when you're sick in any way. And when you're sick or when you're eating less, it becomes harder to have that right mix of nutrients and to fill that all out. And that's where you get into this cycle of side effects and then malnutrition, and then side effects and malnutrition. And so you know we're here to help break that.

Justin Silver: 17:57

But you know people are going through these journeys because it's a lot worse to be obese. You know, and that's the fact, you know you have this whole. We're talking about side effects like nausea and, you know, dizziness, gi tract. But having type two diabetes, having neuropathy in your fingers, being unable to move around the world, you know this is worse than all of that, yes, and so we want to solve that and we're part of the system that's helping us solve that.

Philip Pape: 18:27

Part of the system. I love that. That's the trigger word for me in a good way. System, because we talk about building your system, which is a combination of components right, it could be different tools, tools to support those tools, lifestyle. And there's a funny story Somebody in our group coaching program. He is concerned that he's not eating enough, he's on these drugs and he's trying to fix his lifestyle. Let's just say, and his concern not even having side effects is I'm actually eating too little for what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to split the difference. So it's even more important that if the side effects make that worse, that we deal with them. So let's talk about I want to talk about the ingredients in SymptoGuard because I want people to know that I advocate for evidence-based solutions.

Philip Pape: 19:08

We don't fear monger. I don't want to deal with any weird, non-supported herbs from some country that we've never heard of. Maybe there is something like that. Yeah, there's no foreign herbs here.

Justin Silver: 19:21

You know, really, this is as simple as you can imagine. We are the all in one. So my dad went to the hospital and he was. They told him take zinc, take chromium, take CoQ10, take prebiotics, take probiotics. We put that all in one, so you get two things when you take an all in one. Number one it's easier. I don't know if you've ever tried to swallow 19 pills in one morning. I can tell you from my dad's experience it sucks and it's not the way you want to live life. And even though you're taking these injections and you're trying to live a better life, taking 19 pills a day does not help you lead that life.

Justin Silver: 20:01

The second thing is we're saving people some money. You know GNC and some of these big you know pharmaceutical guys. They're going to or not, pharmaceutical big supplement guys. They make money when you buy 12 different bottles. You buy a bottle of CoQ10 for $20, a bottle of vitamin D for $20, a bottle of vitamin B12 for $20. Yeah, they make more money. We're putting that all into one and we're charging less than $50. If you're on the subscription, it's less than a dollar a day. We're really trying to make this affordable for people, because it should be. You're already paying a bunch of money for these drugs. Very few people are covered by insurance for GLP-1. So you're self-paying for these drugs oftentimes between $179 and $500 for a brand name medication. Let's not add on $200 a month worth of supplements. Let's try and do that for $1 a day.

Philip Pape: 20:56

Yeah, exactly, and, listeners, by the way, you're going to see, I'm going to include a link in the show notes, for because we were able to arrange a deal to get you a discount, a nice discount, so we'll throw a link in there. But you can check out the label, you can look at all the ingredients. You'll see B12, you'll see ginger, CoQ10, very normal stuff that we've talked about a million times. It's funny. You mentioned the 19 pills. I actually take a lot of pills, but only because for performance stuff. But years ago I used to make my own pre-workout because it was hard to find a pre-workout with what we now know to be like kind of the bread and butter right Caffeine, L-citrulline, beta alanine and like one other I'm forgetting, and now you can get that in every pre-workout practically on the market. But I actually had like a segmented tub with all the powders with special scoops for each to get the right amounts mixed every day.

Philip Pape: 21:43

So I know what you mean. You got to be like super dedicated if you got to do that, but it's a pain. So having said that, then I know you guys have clinical trial results showing outcomes from these and I'm curious what those showed how significant improvements were in different measures, different side effects compared to placebo.

Justin Silver: 22:04

Yeah. So we did a double-blinded trial 126 participants so the results are statistically significant. On average, people saw a 50% reduction in side effects. That's beyond what they had for the placebo, and so this is, you know, truly significant. You know we are positively impacting people's lives and that was generally across the board for nausea, dizziness, fatigue and GI tract discomfort. So those are the things that we are focused on and where we really made an impact that was all paid for out of our budget.

Justin Silver: 22:42

You know this has been bootstrapped up until now because for me, you know, I know there's a lot in the market. I know a lot of people are spending a lot of money and they're self-paying for GLP-1s. We're going to only sell them something that works, and so you know it's not for everybody, but for those people who are experiencing the side effects and we are filling those nutrition gaps. We are really making an impact and we have 100% satisfaction guarantee because, again, we know it's not going to work for everybody. So if you're taking SymptoGuard, you're not happy on it, all you have to do is reach out to us and we're happy to refund you, because we know we're going to be helping millions of Americans. If you don't fit that because it's just not the right supplement for you. That's completely okay.

Philip Pape: 23:29

Awesome, yeah, no, it's good to hear that. It's good that you've tested these for listeners who want to try these out and do. We're going to hold Justin to his promise, of course. Let me know if it works and let me know if it doesn't, and we'll keep him honest, and I'm sure the proof is in the pudding. So when people are taking these then do you see any sort of? I guess what I'm asking here is have you measured any lifestyle modifications or long-term effects once you've mitigated the side effects from your drug specifically, or is it just assumed that, okay, the symptoms are gone, so ergo it's going to be successful?

Justin Silver: 24:05

Yes, we don't have any kind of longitudinal over multiple years type of clinical trials or customer trials yet, but what we do have is evidence that we have this day on their GLP-1 while taking SymptoGuard. And if you're taking the GLP-1 in order to lead a healthier lifestyle, minimize food noise and be able to eat a healthier diet without being impacted by big food and chemical addiction to food, we are allowing you to do that for a longer period of time. So my hope is I can come back to you in a year or two and say here are all these case studies and all this experience, but right now, the main thing that we can say is we're making it easier for you to stay on a GLP-1. And that's what you want to do in the first place.

Philip Pape: 24:51

Makes total sense, pretty easy to understand the cause and effect there. So, looking ahead in the future of these drugs, right, we'd say GLP-1s, which admittedly is a simplification because there are now dual agonists, there's now triple agonist drugs. There's so many things that operate on different pathways and different hormones. Are we looking at worse side effects profiles for those Like what's going on there?

Justin Silver: 25:12

You know it's all kind of happening in real time, but here's what I'll say. In the beginning of the pod we talked about the number one reason why people stop taking a GLP-1, and that's injection fear, fatigue or frustration. That's the first time I've used those three Fs, but that sounds great. We're going to use that in the future Injection fear, fatigue and frustration.

Justin Silver: 25:41

And so that, if any of your listeners are very familiar with the industry Novo Nordisk is the maker of Ozempic they have set their targets and their research targets on actually minimizing the number of injections. The frequency Right now it's weekly. Their goal is within the next year to have that at monthly and within three years to actually have that at quarterly Kind of. I mean a wildly impactful thing. At that point you could just go to a doctor and they would be able to do it. I mean a wildly impactful thing. At that point you could just go to a doctor and they would be able to do it. I mean it's only quarterly. The impact to your life would be, I mean, so minimal compared to weekly. But that does, as of now, temporarily worsen side effects. And so for us, you know, the goal is to plug right into that system. We want to be able to help people stay on these drugs longer in a healthier way, and to be able to feel those effects without feeling terrible. That's our goal.

Philip Pape: 26:28

Yeah, no, that's good. That's a good point about frequency injection too and how that would affect side effects because of the kind of the curve of that. So you know. Another question related to this then, in the future of the space is like what are your competitors? Are there competitors in this space? Are there more targeted interventions coming? Are you guys looking to continue to improve the formula or change the formula? I should say Maybe it doesn't need to be improved world, like you said.

Justin Silver: 27:01

You know, at some point you had a bottle and you were trying to create your own formulations. You know I love to think of you know Brian Johnson I'm sure many of your listeners know him, the good and the bad, but he does say some things I love. He says every calorie in his diet fights to be there, and that's how I think about supplements to support the GLP-1, where every piece of that supplement needs to fight to be there. It needs to be proven, it needs to have an impact and if not, why are we taking it? And so that's really what we're doing Right now. We're focused on these side effects. There is absolutely a world where we can expand that, offering protein being a big thing that is often lacking in the diets of people who get on GLP-1s. There's something there and, long-term, we think there are lots of different drugs with lots of different side effects GLP-1s and others and to be able to support along the range of side effects in general, there's a big potential impact.

Philip Pape: 27:57

No, that's great. Yeah, you know those listening who are thinking about taking them or currently taking them or can empathize with what you're talking about. Yeah, supplements I always think of a hierarchy right, kind of what you just mentioned fighting for the space. I think of it as a pyramid where you know you've got your training and your protein and adherence and like the big basics at the bottom and then supplements are kind of near the top. But for some people the supplements might rise further up, depending on their needs. So I love that message. And then maybe I'm going to get you in trouble here, but what would you say to doctors and prescribing physicians when it comes to these drugs and the side effects? Because I feel like there's big gaps in prescriber education on these, as well as gaps in the advice and support that comes along with these drugs. Sometimes it's just prescribed and other times there's okay, you need to maybe lift weights or exercise or move and eat your protein and things like that. What is your message for the healthcare industry?

Justin Silver: 28:55

Yeah, I mean I think the message for the healthcare industry is, first and foremost, kind of to double down on your point. You can't just start taking a GLP-1 and continue to live a sedentary life, eat less and think that equals a healthy outcome. Simply losing weight doesn't mean you're getting healthier. It's a step in the right direction, but there's a lifestyle change, there's leading a more active lifestyle, and that's simply walking. For a lot of people, that's simply walking. For a lot of people, that's just walking around, and so it doesn't need to be. You're in the gym, you know, pumping iron for, you know, for five days a week.

Justin Silver: 29:29

It's small changes that can have a big impact. Walking is a huge one of them, and also the natural movement helps to minimize GI tract discomfort because you're actually getting up and walking around. There's a physical element to that as well. So I think just pushing people to say it's not just that you eat less, it's that you need to change your whole lifestyle that's, I think, the number one thing.

Justin Silver: 29:53

The second thing is that a lot of telehealth providers and general healthcare providers, their first thought when they hear nausea is actually to prescribe Zofran, and Zofran is like dropping an atomic bomb when you need a small punch. I mean, the nausea drug given to patients on chemotherapy is a very, very powerful anti-nausea medication, very powerful anti-nausea medication. Most people on a GLP-1 are facing mild nausea, slight nausea that they want to minimize, and so I'd say it's a really good idea to look in the middle before we go straight Zofran to say are there supplements like SymptoGuard or others who are able to fill that gap for us? Those are the two big things a great lifestyle, and let's focus on having the right kind of prescribed drug or supplement that's going to meet them where their needs are.

Philip Pape: 30:53

Yeah, what came to me was minimum effective dose and also the opportunity cost, like when you have an alternative now that helps you avoid taking something overly powerful. That's great because that didn't exist in the market before and that is a net positive from just that perspective alone. And look my wife when she had morning sickness and chewed the ginger gum. I know how powerful simple herbs like ginger you know. Is it an herb? What do you call ginger?

Justin Silver: 31:17

I guess it's a root right, a root exactly.

Philip Pape: 31:22

But how powerful something like that can be, and you've done the research to say, okay, here let's pick the right things, put them together into a supplement, all right, so, listeners, a few things coming out of this. Here is you know, justin's obviously an expert in the area and seems to care about this, is passionate about it. He's going to be in our Physique University doing a private live Q&A for anybody who's in there, and if you're not in there, another reason to join, because he's going to be in there answering your questions pretty soon. But is there anything else that you wish I'd asked Justin about this space that people need to know?

Justin Silver: 31:50

Man, you asked a lot of great questions For me. I'm on a GLP-1 myself. I think this is going to have far-reaching impact. One in seven Americans are taking a GLP-1 right now. That's expected to go to one in four. We've already seen results on weight loss, but we're seeing results in anti-addiction and leading a healthier lifestyle, and this feels like we're in not even the first inning, but we're kind of in batting practice for the baseball game that is the GLP-1 industry, and I'm just really excited to be able to be in that world, to be able to help people in my smallest way and to be making an impact.

Philip Pape: 32:30

Yeah, I agree, and I can tell you do it with a smile and the positivity and the energy is obviously there. So I appreciate it. And last thing, last thing, man, where can people learn about you and your work?

Justin Silver: 32:40

Oh man, check out SymptoGuardcom. It's the best place to learn about SymptoGuard and what we do, how we do it, why we do it. There's so much great stuff on there. A lot of hard people have made that site look amazing. And then, you know, also check out at SymptoGuard across different channels. We have a SymptoGuard Facebook group where we have people who are taking GLP-1s, symptoguard, all of that. They're able to get in there and have discussions about the experience. You can follow me on Instagram at TheJustinSilver if you want to check me out. I think I'm like the second or third most famous Justin Silver, so you can find me at the Justin Silver and, either way, I just hope that you get a chance to learn a little bit more. And a fun fact, I'll let you in on something. If you see any pictures of our bottle and there's a hand model holding that bottle, it is, in fact, my hand, so I am a famous hand model in the world of Simtoe art.

Philip Pape: 33:41

That's pretty cool. All right guys, check that out. I'm a big fan of education, so I definitely want you guys listening to get as educated as possible. Check out their Instagram at SymptoGuard. Check out the Justin Silver on Instagram and then, instead of going straight to SymptoGuardcom, click the link in the show notes and you'll get 10% off SymptoGuard and it is going to teach you about um. It's going to take you to the site anyway and you could actually go to witsandweightscom slash SymptoGuard. So it's easy on you guys witsandweightscom slash SymptoGuard, or hit them up for the education on Instagram. Justin, it's been a pleasure. Hopefully people can learn more about you and the product as they check things out. Everybody be skeptical, as always, but I think this is good stuff. That's why I'm vouching for it and I appreciate you coming on, justin.

Justin Silver: 34:22

Thanks so much for having me, man, this was great.

5‑Day Powerbuilding Blueprint for Strength and Size (Introducing RESOLUTE) | Ep 357

Get my new RESOLUTE 5-Day Powerbuilding template when you join Physique University to maximize both strength and muscle growth simultaneously at this link (special for podcast listeners to get a FREE custom nutrition plan when you join): http://bit.ly/podcast-new-wwpu

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Most lifters choose between getting strong or building size.

Powerbuilding represents the intelligent marriage of strength training and hypertrophy, allowing lifters to make simultaneous progress in both areas without compromising either goal.

Discover why the traditional approach of switching between strength and hypertrophy programs limits your progress, and how Philip's new RESOLUTE 5-day powerbuilding design helps you create synergistic gains.

Main Takeaways:

• 3-week rep range rotations prevent adaptation loss while maintaining progress across all rep ranges

• Starting every session with your heaviest main lift when fresh maximizes neurological demand and drives all other lifts

• Developmental lifts reinforce main movements without competing, addressing weaknesses while adding complementary volume

• Dedicated back and arms specialization accelerates physique development without interfering with main lift recovery

• Intelligent deloading only when necessary (every 9-12 weeks) rather than forced periodic breaks

Episode Resources:

• Chef's Foundry P600 Cookware: Swiss-engineered ceramic coating with no PFAS, Teflon, or plastic components. Get 50% off at witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry

Timestamps:

0:01 - What is powerbuding for strength AND muscle?
3:15 - Why strength and hypertrophy training are synergistic
5:37 - 3-week rep range rotation system
10:08 - Main lifts and developmental variations
14:37 - Back and arms specialization
16:51 - Adaptive deloading
19:34 - Frameworks vs rigid programs
22:28 - Building both strength and size systematically

The Powerbuilding Strategy That Builds Size and Strength Without Burning You Out

If you're running out of energy before you run out of sets… if your secondary lifts are crushing your joints more than your main work… or if you're stuck choosing between strength and hypertrophy—this new powerbuilding blueprint is for you.

In this episode, I walk you through the full design of my new five-day powerbuilding program, RESOLUTE. It’s built around sustainable progression, overlapping recovery windows, and minimal wasted effort. Whether you’re transitioning from a novice linear progression or you’ve been chasing PRs for years, this plan gives you a structured path to size and strength with room to recover and adapt along the way.

Let’s break down how it works.

Why I Built This: Strength Without the Fatigue Hangover

I've been running intermediate-level programs since my Starting Strength days—Upper/Lower splits, 8/5/2 powerbuilding, Conjugate-style templates—but they all came with compromises:

• Too much overlap in fatigue between lower body and upper pulling

• Accessory lifts that felt like punishment after the main work

• Not enough room to push main lifts AND recover

So I pulled from multiple systems—Wendler’s 5/3/1, Andy Baker’s periodization models, and Alex Bromley’s strength frameworks—to build a five-day split that trains everything, overtrains nothing, and focuses each day on a clear purpose.

The result is RESOLUTE.

The 5-Day Structure: High Intent, Low Interference

RESOLUTE runs on a 5-day weekly template:

1. Lower A – Primary squat + assistance

2. Upper A – Primary bench + assistance

3. Back and Arms – Isolation-heavy, moderate volume

4. Lower B – Secondary squat/deadlift + accessories

5. Upper B – Bench variation + upper back, delts, triceps

Each day has one clear focus. You won’t be deadlifting the day before squatting or smashing your arms the day before heavy bench.

It also builds in what I call rotational fatigue buffering—rotating rep ranges across weeks and lifts so you’re never stacking maximal fatigue in the same zone week after week.

The Weekly Rep Rotation: Strength Meets Hypertrophy

You’re not locked into 3x5 forever. RESOLUTE runs a 4-week undulating cycle:

• Week 1: 5s (volume-strength)

• Week 2: 8s (hypertrophy)

• Week 3: 3s (intensity)

• Week 4: 10s (volume-hypertrophy)

These are rotated across different lifts each week so you’re always in a different rep zone without needing constant max effort. One lift might be pushing triples while another is hitting 8–10 reps, keeping you fresh and building a wide strength base.

The Prioritized Movement Model

Each day starts with a primary compound, which rotates through a strength cycle.

Then comes a secondary movement that supports or fills in gaps (think front squats, RDLs, Spoto press). These are always submaximal—your CNS won’t be fried.

Finally, we hit accessory work—higher reps, lower loads, isolation where needed. But even here, there’s intention. You’re targeting weak points, improving muscle balance, and managing fatigue.

For example:

• On Upper A: Main bench, followed by a long-pause bench or weighted dips, then lats, delts, and curls.

• On Lower B: Front squats, RDLs, split squats, and abs.

Back and Arms Get Their Own Day—Finally

This isn’t a throwaway day. It's a high-quality pump session that:

• Promotes recovery between heavy pressing/pulling

• Drives direct hypertrophy to arms and back

• Fills in volume for isolation work that doesn’t interfere with main lifts

Back and arms often get shortchanged in other templates. Not here. If you're a natural lifter, you need the volume to grow.

Built for Real Life: Auto-Regulation and Progression

You’re not a robot. You’ll have weeks where everything feels heavy, and others where you’re smashing PRs.

That’s why RESOLUTE uses:

• Top set + backoff schemes (e.g., top triple, 3x5 at 85%)

• RPE guidelines to avoid overshooting

• Rest days as needed, since five days doesn’t mean five in a row

It’s flexible, but not random. You can repeat blocks, reset intensity, and keep progressing month after month.

Who It’s For

This program is built for intermediate lifters—meaning you’re past the newbie gains, and you’ve probably done a few strength or hypertrophy programs already.

Ideal for:

• Lifters who want size and strength without burning out

• Those who train 4–5 days a week and want structure

• Anyone tired of disjointed push/pull splits or cookie-cutter powerbuilding

It’s not for:

• Absolute beginners (run a basic LP first)

• Athletes with 3 or fewer training days

• Anyone chasing singles every week

Join Physique University to get full access to this and every other training template.

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Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Now most lifters choose between getting strong or building size. Today, I'm introducing my new five-day power building template, called Resolute, that is intended to do both at the same time. You'll learn how three-week rep range rotations can keep you progressing without plateaus, why starting every session with your heaviest main lift maximizes gains, and how dedicating one full day to specialization can accelerate your overall development. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm sharing something that I've been developing for a while behind the scenes. It is called Resolute and it is my new five-day power building template designed to maximize both strength and size or muscle growth simultaneously. It's available exclusively inside Wits and Weights Physique University, but today I want to break down the principles behind it and why it works, and how you can apply these concepts to your own training. If you want Resolute, as mentioned, it's available only inside Physique University, which you can join for just 27 a month using the link for podcast listeners in the show notes, and if you use that link, I'll build out your custom nutrition plan for free. You'll be able to grab the template. Get any of our other templates, learn how to use them and get support as you make adjustments or substitutions or deal with your own personal limitations, whether it's equipment, physical or otherwise.

Philip Pape: 1:38

So last month I had a call with someone I'm going to call him Mike. Mike had been lifting for about three years, so he was kind of on the intermediate level of training and he had been constantly switching programs, bouncing between programs every few months or so it wasn't like every week, but it was every few months. He would go from a power lifting program and get a bit stronger with his numbers, but then he wanted to improve his physique, so he'd switched to bodybuilding and he built some muscle there, but then some of his main lifts would stagnate. He didn't feel like he was really making overall progress and I think that problem isn't unique. It's the inevitable result of how not only how programs are designed, but how people think they need to apply specific programs at specific times. That may not be right for them and what they really want to do is what you really want to do is treat strength and hypertrophy, you know, not like oil and water, like they're completely separate things, but there there's a massive overlap.

Philip Pape: 2:33

We talked about this in the strength versus hypertrophy episode, and people get stuck in their head that I'm either training for strength you know, powerlifting, max numbers, peak intensity or I'm training for size, and that you have to pick a lane every time. And I think the research shows that for practical purposes, for everyday people just trying to do both because we all have, we tend to have both of those desires. I mean, I will talk to people who just don't care about their strength whatsoever, but that's rare. The research shows that these are not opposing forces and that if you can get stronger, it's going to give you size. If you can build some size, it's going to help push up your strength, and there's periodization between these. They're synergistic.

Philip Pape: 3:15

But there's also a way to do them concurrently. In many cases, the stronger you are, the more weight you can use for the hypertrophy work. So wouldn't it be interesting, if you're getting strong while also applying that to hypertrophy, the more muscle you then have, the better your leverages, the stronger you become? Most likely you are probably eating to gain a bit of weight as well, and so you can take the muscle size that you're building and feed it back into your main lifts and getting stronger. So instead of trying to optimize them separately, which for some people, will take longer, cause more frustration and also is almost too optimal, if you will, right For the everyday person who's just going to work out four days a week, maybe in their home gym, or maybe they only have an hour. You can design one system where they enhance the other as you go along, and I've learned this from some of the best out there, including my current coach, andy Baker. We see it in different applications of strength development, including in the powerlifting world, where they understand that becoming well-rounded and hitting your weak spots then translates to strength.

Philip Pape: 4:17

So the program I put together is a little bit of a blend of the best of what I've learned from some of these other coaches. Again, it's called Resolute and in that plan the idea is that you can go for quite a while and push your main lifts at moderate strength levels while also making your hypertrophy work more effective, and then vice versa, back and forth virtuous cycle, and the whole thing is sustainable because you rarely need deloads the way it's designed, with resets and waves. So I think it's. You know, I'll admit it, I'm standing on the shoulder of giants here, but I've also put these things in practice myself and worked with clients who have tried them, and I'm taking the best of all these together and designing this with a both end approach. So we're going to talk about the main pieces of the program, and these are things you could do on your own. You don't have to join us to get the program or to get the template, but if you do, it'll be all prescribed, spelled out nicely, and I even include in the template a starter set of all the lifts. In other words, you could run those lifts, as is almost indefinitely, and I put it into Boost Camp, so you'll get a link where, if you want to use Boost Camp, the workout app, it's preloaded in there for 12 weeks, right? So the main thing there is the first lift of the day.

Philip Pape: 5:37

This is the three-week rep range, and I stole this idea from concepts like Jim Wendler 531, from Andy Baker's KSC Power Building, which is an 852. And what I'm doing here is having you work in rep ranges but also rotate those reps. So week one You're working in the six to eight rep range, week two in the three to five rep range, week three in the two to three, and I like the ranges in this case. It gives you a little bit more of that auto-regulation, rather than absolutely having to progress on a certain rep range. It gives you some auto-regulation, gives you a little more flexibility for some of the bumps and bruises and dings and recovery issues that we face. Also makes it a little bit easier to run during fat loss, because a lot of our students are trying to do this during fat loss.

Philip Pape: 6:21

So it gives you a little more allowance to be able to push the weight up, even if you say, drop a rep as long as you're still in the rep range and you're pushing those rep ranges independently over the three weeks later. Right? So the six to eight rep range, you're gonna push it up three weeks later. Right, so the six to eight rep range, you're gonna push it up three weeks later in terms of weight, you're gonna keep pushing it up until you drop below the rep range and then you're gonna do a reset. That's really it, and you're gonna do that independently for each rep range. So if your two to three reps is driving up but your three to five reps drops, the three to five reps gets reset, the two to three reps keeps going, right, and all of this is explained in words in the template itself.

Philip Pape: 7:04

Now you might be thinking, okay, that's just periodization, but I don't think it is. I think traditional periodization moves you through phases linearly, right. You spend like four to six weeks in one rep range and then you move to another. I think five, three, one is built on that and part of the problem there is, by the time you cycle back to a rep range or a specific number of reps, you you might've lost some of the training or adaptations that you built there. Um, and for my client base and those of you listening, most of you are beginner, novice, intermediate, late intermediate as opposed to more advanced trainees, and I think this kind of weekly system will progress you better because you can get higher frequency. I hope I'm not losing you guys in explaining all this. Okay, it's all spelled out in the template. If you join Physique University, so if you stop providing a stimulus to a particular rep range, you're going to slowly start detraining in that rep range, which is not always a terrible thing if you're still getting the movement pattern in within other rep ranges. But this kind of splits the difference and helps you do both right. You do six to eight reps, then you do three to five, then you do two to three and now you're back to six to eight just three weeks later, and you've kept the movement pattern going in the meantime and the different rep ranges help the other rep ranges right. So you are never more than two weeks away from a rep range, your adaptations stay fresh, your strength stays kind of where it needs to be and at the same time you're building some size, and I think there's research that shows this kind of approach is really solid.

Philip Pape: 8:31

Hey, this is Philip, and before we continue, I want to talk about cookware. We all love to make our own food. I love nonstick pans. The problem is I've avoided them for years because when they get scratched, when they get heated, they can release microplastics, pfas small particles that can accumulate over time in the body and some studies have shown them to be linked to health issues. If you're optimizing your nutrition and making lots of food for you and your family at home, it doesn't make sense to compromise that with questionable cookware. So that's why I was interested when Chef's Foundry, who is sponsoring this episode, showed me their ceramic cookware. It's called the P600 and uses Swiss-engineered ceramic coating which has no Teflon, no PFAS, no plastic components. It is nonstick. It works on all stovetops. It goes straight into the oven. All the things you need if you're trying to cook a lot of your meals at home. Right now you can get the P600 at 50% off by going to witsandweightscom slash chefs foundry. You'll also get a bunch of accessories with that. There's a whole page that explains what you'll get for that discounted 50% off. Go to witsandweightscom slash chefs foundry or click the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 9:41

All right, let's get back to the show. You know Mike Zordos and their colleagues showed that undulating periodization, which is varying the intensity in shorter timeframes, is gonna produce superior strength gains compared to a linear progression. This assumes you've gotten through your novice linear progression. It also produces better hypertrophy because you're using heavier loads more frequently, right? So it's a combination of the heavier and lighter loads in the rotation.

Philip Pape: 10:08

Every session in Resolute starts with a big barbell movement. When you're fresh, squat bench dead overhead. The four main lifts it's four days. That's four of the five days. So stay tuned. I'll explain what the four main lifts. It's four days, that's four of the five days. So stay tuned, I'll explain what the fifth day is. And that's kind of an intelligent design to push all those lifts up and to accessorize around them. You have only so much energy, only so much focus and strength in each session, right? Some of you are doing this during fat loss, so you have even less, and a lot of programs will scatter this across multiple exercises where, like the squat, sandwich between leg press and lunge, or if you're talking full body or the bench, comes after three other pressing movements and it's again.

Philip Pape: 10:47

It depends on your goal. If your goal is to work on weak spots and variations, that might need to come first before you hit the main lift. But resolute, it's power building. So we're prioritizing what matters most and that's the most neurologically demanding lift and that gets your, gets you in your peak fresh state. Then you're focused, you're firing all cylinders. You could do the warmup with that lift. You can develop that movement pattern, attack it right. It demands the most from your entire system and it then drives everything else right. A stronger squat means you can use heavier weights on lunges, for example. A bigger bench means the accessory pressing can carry more load. The main lift sets the ceiling for what follows, so it kind of primes you. I really love that approach and it's a very traditional approach because it works After the main lift, resolute introduces the developmental lift and this is a concept I've seen in many of the best and then dropping to a very light rep flat dumbbell bench.

Philip Pape: 12:00

You're actually dropping the load just a little bit and doing sets of eight. So, just to be clear, it's sets of eight, so it's an interesting rep range, but it's a fixed number of reps so that you can focus on progressing exactly that lift with those reps over time as developmental variation. So, for example, after heavy squats you might do pause squats. Right right After bench press you might do close grip or incline. So it's very similar and it reinforces the main lift without competing with it, and that helps also with fatigue and recovery.

Philip Pape: 12:31

The developmental lift, the whole point of it, is to address weaknesses in the main lift but also add volume in a way that enhances instead of detracting from the primary goal. Because if, for example, your bench stalls because of weakness in your tricep, the close grip bench as your developmental lift attacks that limitation and this is where customization can occur, right, if you're in Physique University and you're like you, look, I'm really trying to work on this part of my body Is this the best developmental lift? We could say no, why don't you do this one instead? Right, why don't you do a paused or a spotto press or a Larson press instead? And a lot of programs. They either skip that approach or they just kind of move on to completely unrelated variations. And I'm not saying that's bad. Again, it depends on your goal. It depends on your goal. But I think this is a very intelligent approach. We're trying to put in there where it's like, instead of a redundant stress, it's a complimentary stress, so you get a little bit extra benefit, not so much fatigue built up, and you're attacking the main lift and supporting the main lift. So again, resolute's available exclusively inside Physique University, which you can join using the podcast listener link in the show notes. If you do, it's still 27 a month, but you'll get a free custom nutrition plan and then when you jump in free custom nutrition plan and then when you jump in, I can show you immediately where to find that training template.

Philip Pape: 13:48

So another thing I think separates Resolute from a lot of the power building programs you see, is the fifth day is a specialization day dedicated entirely to back and arms. And I think I love focusing on the back and arms because both from a physique perspective. They get neglected and people want to develop them. And from a health symmetry, supporting your other lifts, perspective, injury prevention, supporting your shoulders, for example. People don't realize that the value of the back being strong to support your shoulders. So I'm not talking about the big rope-like back development you get from deadlifts, I'm talking about a little bit more direct work on your lats, your rhomboids, your rear delts, right, kind of that mid to upper back area. And then of course, arms. We you know men and women all like to have stronger, bigger looking arms.

Philip Pape: 14:37

And although you hit arms both directly and indirectly throughout the week, you then can specialize on the weekend and hit them really hard as the very last part of the session. You then can specialize on the weekend and hit them really hard as the very last part of the session. And so that's what I wanted to do with the power building here is really reserve some back and arm specialization for that last day, but you're still hitting the back and arms during the week. So you're getting a decent amount of volume, but it's spread out really nicely and then you get that, you get that Saturday or you get the the. You get the Saturday and Sunday off If you do it five days straight or you can take a day off in the middle. We have a couple of ways to do that. We can show you in the template itself in Physique University. If you join, there's not really a right or wrong because it's designed with fatigue recovery built in, even if you do them five days straight.

Philip Pape: 15:22

So the reason I like back strength is it also translates to your pressing strength. Your arm development translates to everything, also translates to your physique and we know that performance is limited by your weakest component and it's often hard to figure out what that is. But for a lot of lifters, that's back strength, that's also their arms right. So you know, triceps are huge in a lot of movements and they often get a little bit neglected, even though they come along for the ride with things like pull-ups and chin-ups and close grip bench and even rows. Hitting them directly is helpful. So we don't want weak backs. Strong backs are extremely helpful.

Philip Pape: 15:58

Benching is supported by your lats for stability. Squat supported by your back. In terms of you know, especially if you're doing, let's say, a safety squat bar, a lot of you are using that now. It actually really helps to have that strong back. Your upper back can round under load, so really strengthening that can help. So we're dedicating an entire session to back development and trying to remove that bottleneck and also help with the things people want, which is that that look right. And then we can't pretend that aesthetics don't matter, because they do. Big arms make everything look better, especially triceps. People think it's the biceps, but it's the triceps and they help fill out your shirt and they are the difference between for some people looking like you lift and not, and so we throw it in there Again. You can completely alter this if you want and say I'm going to do leg specialization, understanding that there's going to be a fatigue cost depending on how you change the program. So again, I'm trying to do this intelligently, with a purpose rather than random.

Philip Pape: 16:51

And one of the things I wanted to think about here was deloads, because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about how to use deloads and how and when and what they are. I think a really well-designed program is such that you almost never need to use a deload unless you feel the fatigue building up and then I'll say intuitively, decide that you need that. The three-week waves and the resets Make it so that you have a very good chance of dissipating fatigue without needing deloads. Where the deload might be needed is if you're in a fat loss phase, don't have a lot of resources, you're not getting enough sleep, you're not eating enough right, you have too much stress. So these are all things that would cause a deload, simply because there are other variables outside the gym that are affecting your training.

Philip Pape: 17:37

But also after you run this for, let's say, three or four waves, so nine or 12 weeks, you might find that you need to deload just because of built-up fatigue for your personal recoverability, or because the lifts are getting a little bit stale and you want to do a reset. And then you want to switch to substitute some of the variations and accessories or even the main lifts right, even the main lifts. And that's why I think I have written in there every nine to 12 weeks if necessary. And when you do a deload, there's a couple of different ways to do that beyond the scope of today's program. But for a lot of people that's gonna be dropping the intensity just a bit and cutting out some accessory work, right? Not a wholesale, like elimination of days, although in a five-day power building program that is another option. You can drop to maybe three days for that week. You know, three or four days, just hit the main lifts and a variation and be done with it. There's a lot of different ways to do it.

Philip Pape: 18:27

My goal is that you don't even need a deload, so we're not forcing you to take a deload. I'm not saying you have to take it. It's going to depend on are you recovering well, are you progressing, are you feeling good? Why interrupt the momentum if all those things are good? That's my point. And you'll know when your performance stagnates or declines. And that's why we measure biofeedback, we track our lifts. You know we look at our, make sure the volume is right for us.

Philip Pape: 18:50

Even when you start a program like this, even if you're fully resourced and nourished, the way it's written may be too much for you or it may not be enough, right. I think the volume is pretty reasonable for the average person, but I can definitely see, again in a fat loss phase or something like that, where you would need to reduce it. So the the deload, you know you want to keep training your nervous system, keep handling those movement patterns, but you're going to give your tissue a little bit more recovery if you need it right If you need it. So I want you to think about program design here, because that's this episode is really about the design. Yes, I'm telling you about a template. I would love to have you in Physique University because I know if you join you're going to be extremely successful and learn finally how to lift the right way and progress and then actually get the result you want, which is building muscle and then losing fat.

Philip Pape: 19:34

But program design-wise, a lot of lifters approach training like following a recipe. Right, it's like it's kind of interesting. It's like here is a program and I'm going to follow it and I'm going to get the result. But we talk about engineering systems all the time and the best systems here are adaptive. So all of my training templates they're called templates because they're frameworks. It's not just here follow this exact program. It's here's the template and why as a starting point. Now let's tweak, based on how you're responding, what you need, what you like, just like with food. It's like if I gave you a meal plan as opposed to a meal framework. Right, a meal framework might be here's your calories, here's your macros, here's your micro goals, here's all the foods you like. Now you can mix and match the way you want it.

Philip Pape: 20:19

Now, when, when it comes to training, people like a little more guidance and a little more structure right off the bat, because it's a bit more challenging to understand from the overwhelming list of exercises how to put it together. So that's why I think these templates are a good launching off point and the system does a lot of the thinking for you, which is we kind of need that from a mental fatigue perspective, but then you, your thinking, or if we support you in doing that, is to adapt to your conditions and your recoverability. So it's not this like rigid protocol that's just going to break down from day one. And once you understand the principles which, by the way, in our training templates, one of the first sheets in there describes all the main principles and also some of the tactical things like warming up then you comply them to any template, any goal, right.

Philip Pape: 21:02

If you want to focus more on strength, you could adjust the variation selection. Or you can have more variations of the same, more variations on the main lifts in there. You could have lower rep ranges. Right. If you want more size and you want to modify the rep ranges if you're dealing with an injury, right, you can swap out lifts. There's a lot of ways to modify it. So it's not just following a program. It's okay. I'm engineering my training around this template and building a skill that serves me for the rest of my lifting career.

Philip Pape: 21:30

I love this stuff. Okay, so I'm excited about Resolute. It's not just a great program or technically template. It represents a, an intentional way of thinking about strength and size, not as competing goals, but how to collaborate and putting them together. And then throw in some of that fun but helpful specialization as well and make it adaptive, make it a bit auto-regulated and help you systematically address the things that are lagging but also allow the things that are progressing to continue progressing right.

Philip Pape: 21:59

It's designed for real people, real lifters who have real lives, who are trying to combine everything into right. It's designed for real people, real lifters who have real lives, who are trying to combine everything into one in an intelligent, efficient way. It might not be the 99.999% optimal for each, but it's 95% optimal for both. So if you're looking for efficiency, that's where Resolute delivers and that's what thinking about systems brings to your training. And you'll get stronger, you'll build size. You'll get both probably faster than you thought possible. Probably faster than you've been able to in the past.

Philip Pape: 22:28

So if you wanna stop choosing between them, if you wanna start building with a power building approach, resolute is waiting. We've got it already up and running inside Physique University. And if someone else is looking for a good program or a template template, text this episode to a friend who's been struggling. I think they'll thank you, for you know the ideas, the programming principles and you guys can probably put together this program yourself. I'll be honest. But we've got it all set up for you. So use the link in the show notes to join, get a free nutrition plan, come in and get resolute and until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember you don't have to choose between strong and jacked when you engineer a system for both. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The All Junk Food Diet vs. Clean Eating (Lyle McDonald on "Excluding the Middle") | Ep 356

Get a FREE custom nutrition plan when you join Physique University to maximize both strength and muscle growth simultaneously at this link (special for podcast listeners): http://bit.ly/podcast-new-wwpu

Get 50% off Chef's Foundry P600 ceramic cookware (no PFAS, no Teflon, no microplastics) at witsandweights.com/chefsfoundry

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Influencers claim you can get shredded eating nothing but junk food. At the same time, clean eating gurus demonize a single cookie (or even broccoli!) as though it's poison. Both miss the point entirely.

This false dichotomy creates an all-or-nothing mindset that undermines your success. When we operate at extremes, either "if it fits your macros" with zero regard for food quality or rigid clean eating that moralizes every bite, we set ourselves up for an unhealthy relationship with food. 

The research consistently shows that the sustainable solution lives in the unsexy middle ground that nobody wants to talk about because it doesn't get views or sell weight loss programs.

Learn about Lyle McDonald's concept of "Excluding the Middle" and why the fitness industry's obsession with extremes traps you in cycles of all-or-nothing thinking that undermine long-term success.

Main Takeaways:

• Why both "if it fits your macros" junk food diets and rigid clean eating miss the point

• The research supporting the middle ground: 85% whole foods, 15% flexibility

• How rigid dietary restraint increases binge eating risk while flexible restraint improves outcomes

• The exact framework for implementing sustainable nutrition without moralizing food

• Why planning for flexibility (not spontaneous perfection) is key to long-term success

Episode Resources:

• Get 50% off Chef's Foundry P600 ceramic cookware (no PFAS, no Teflon, no microplastics)

• Lyle McDonald's "Excluding the Middle" article

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

• Episode: Why Macros Might Be All You Need to Streamline Your Nutrition

Timestamps:

0:01 - The false dichotomy of nutrition extremes
6:04 - All "junk food" diet
10:35 - 100% clean eating
15:28 - The middle ground
21:07 - 300 calories a day for enjoyment
22:27 - Flexible vs. rigid restraint (targets + guidelines)
24:19 - THIS is everything
25:30 - Planning for flexibility vs. spontaneous "perfect" choices

Stop Moralizing Food and Start Making Progress That Sticks

Can you eat Pop-Tarts and still lose fat? Sure. Can you get shredded eating nothing but chicken, broccoli, and sweet potatoes? Also yes. But if you're stuck swinging between those extremes—binging on processed food or obsessively avoiding it—you’re missing the point. And you’re probably missing your goals, too.

In this episode, I break down Lyle McDonald’s underrated concept of excluding the middle, and why most nutrition advice online is just a tug-of-war between extremes. From all-junk-food diets to moralized “clean eating,” both camps have it wrong—and both create more problems than they solve.

The Problem with Extremes

Social media thrives on black-and-white thinking. Either you’re eating ultra-processed junk and bragging about your Pop-Tart diet, or you’re posting meal prep containers of dry chicken breast and crying about seed oils. It’s no wonder people feel trapped.

But here’s the catch: neither extreme works long-term. They’re loud, but they’re not sustainable.

Let’s look at what each side gets right and wrong.

The All-Junk-Food Approach

Yes, energy balance determines fat loss. If you're in a calorie deficit, you'll lose weight—even if you’re eating mostly ultra-processed food. There are plenty of studies and n=1 examples of this working.

But…

• You’ll lack essential micronutrients: vitamins, minerals, fiber, and phytonutrients your body needs to function.

• You’ll struggle with satiety: processed food is engineered to be hyper-palatable and addictive.

• You’ll likely derail your health markers: even if your weight improves, your insulin sensitivity, blood lipids, and overall function may not.

• You’ll ignore the human side of eating: social, emotional, and cultural connections to food get left behind when you reduce everything to numbers.

This approach might “work” for body weight in the short term, but it misses the full picture of health, longevity, and adherence.

The Clean Eating Trap

If junk food is the Wild West, clean eating is the food police. This camp insists that “clean” foods are the only acceptable choices and labels anything outside the club as dirty, toxic, or immoral.

Sure, there’s value in eating mostly whole, minimally processed foods. That’s not controversial. But the clean eating crowd takes it too far:

• They create moral categories that lead to guilt and shame.

• They make the diet unsustainably rigid, especially in social settings.

• They increase the risk of binge eating and disordered patterns through all-or-nothing rules.

People don’t fail clean eating because they lack willpower. They fail because it’s not built for real life. It's a rulebook that punishes you for being human.

Why the Middle Ground Works

You don’t have to pick a side. In fact, the answer is exactly where almost no one looks: the boring middle.

Research consistently shows that people who practice flexible dietary restraint (rather than rigid rules) are more likely to:

• Maintain their weight long term

• Reduce binge eating episodes

• Have a better psychological relationship with food

This isn’t vague advice. The practical approach is:

• 80–90% of your calories from whole, nutrient-dense foods

• 10–20% from foods you enjoy, even if they’re processed or indulgent

So yes, you can lose fat while still eating ice cream. And you can get healthy without eliminating your favorite foods. But you need a framework.

How to Implement Flexible Restraint

Here’s how to make this work in real life:

1. Use the 85/15 Framework

Set a daily target for flexibility. For example:

• 2,000 calories per day = 300 flexible calories

• 1,500 calories per day = 225 flexible calories

That might be a chocolate bar, a cookie, or a glass of wine. The rest of your diet is made up of foods that keep you full, energized, and hitting your macro targets.

2. Combine Macro Tracking with Food Quality

Tracking macros teaches you how much you're eating. Focusing on food quality makes sure you’re getting nutrients and staying full.

It’s not either/or. It’s both:

• Protein from chicken, eggs, Greek yogurt

• Carbs from fruit, veggies, potatoes, and grains

• Fats from olive oil, nuts, seeds

Add in protein bars or ice cream occasionally. Just make sure it fits.

3. Context Is Everything

A food’s “value” depends on the situation. Gatorade during a long workout is smart. Gatorade while sitting on the couch? Not so much.

One slice of pizza on a Friday night out with friends doesn’t undo a week of solid nutrition. But eating it daily because you didn’t plan ahead? That might need to be addressed.

Context helps you make choices without guilt.

4. Plan for Flexibility

Flexible doesn’t mean spontaneous. Planning is what makes flexibility sustainable.

• Know when social meals are coming and plan lighter meals around them.

• Track indulgent meals ahead of time, so you stay within your calorie goals.

• Expect holidays, birthdays, and travel to happen—and don’t pretend you’ll be perfect.

You wouldn’t show up to a powerlifting meet without training. Don’t show up to your weekend without a food strategy.

Letting Go of Perfection

The minute you stop trying to eat perfectly, you start eating better.

When cookies aren't forbidden, you stop craving them all the time. When pizza is just a food—not a cheat—you start making better choices that fit your goals.

This is what we help clients build inside Physique University. Not a list of foods to avoid. Not a prescription to eat like a robot. But a real, livable system for eating that supports fat loss, muscle gain, and a long-term healthy relationship with food.

Because in today's extreme, performative nutrition culture, the most radical thing you can do is be boringly moderate.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Yes, you can lose fat eating pop tarts and ice cream. You could also get ripped eating nothing but chicken, broccoli and sweet potatoes. Both statements are true and both approaches could derail your progress in ways most people don't think about. Today, we're exploring one of the most important concepts in modern nutrition science the false dichotomy, and why the fitness industry's obsession with extremes traps you in these cycles of all-or-nothing thinking that undermine your long-term success. You'll learn why the solution lies in the unsexy middle ground, how rigid dietary rules increase your risk of binge eating, and the exact framework to build a sustainable approach that delivers results without turning food into a moral battleground.

Philip Pape: 0:53

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach Philip Pape, and today we're examining one of the most persistent problems in nutrition culture the false choice between eating like a garbage disposal or like a monk. If you've ever felt torn between influencers pushing if it fits your macros, all junk food diets and clean eating gurus demonizing everything a single cookie, a Pop-Tart you're experiencing exactly what researcher and author Lyle McDonald calls excluding the middle, and it's probably costing you results. By the end of this episode you're gonna understand why both extremes miss the point and how to build your sustainable approach to work in the real world. Now, if this all-or-nothing pattern sounds familiar, there's always a faster way forward with more support, wits and Weights. Physique University gives you a system to eat with confidence and deal with these issues while building the physique you want. And we are all about sustainability and we are all about meeting you in the middle and allowing you to enjoy your life and have fun and eat things you enjoy but still make progress on your goals. Physique University gets you that framework the community and, of course, a custom nutrition plan built by me, if you use the link in the show notes and that is specific to your goals Link in the show notes to check that out. I just wanted to mention that.

Philip Pape: 2:18

But now let's get into how we build a sustainable system for our nutrition. First, we're going to break down this concept that I've already alluded to. It came from an article I read by Lyle McDonald called Excluding the Middle, and why it is a very important idea when it comes to modern nutrition. Second, we're going to examine the two extremes the all junk food diet, the rigid clean eating. What they get right, what they get very wrong and why both can cause problems, and where the middle ground is. Third, we're going to explore what the research says about the middle ground and why it's not just more effective, but that is where sustainability happens. And then, of course, I'm going to give you some practical tips to implement this in your own life, complete with some real numbers and specific strategies. So definitely stick around for the whole episode to get the whole context and then the practical tips as well. So let me start by giving credit where it's due.

Philip Pape: 3:06

This entire discussion is built on an article by Lyle McDonald from bodyrecompositioncom. It's called Excluding the Middle. I heard him mention it on an episode recently with Brandon DeCruz and, of course, brandon DeCruz and I just did a back and forth Q&A episode on both of our shows. So kind of coming full circle here Now. Lyle's been researching body composition and nutrition for a long time, for decades. Some would argue he's one of the godfathers of flexible eating and this particular article it's a bit on the older side when he wrote it, but it still is highly relevant and it, you know, in his own style of cutting through the noise and calling people out, it's pretty clear.

Philip Pape: 3:42

The core idea is that in any debate, but particularly these nutrition debates, people are constantly framing issues in extreme black and white terms. They are ignoring the nuance, they're ignoring the middle ground, where the real solutions exist, and they use it as a straw man. They use it to suggest that, if you don't agree with their position, you must be talking about the opposite extreme, as opposed to something more nuanced. I just wanted you to think about it. When was the last time you saw a social media post on Instagram about eating mostly whole foods with some flexibility? Well, you probably see them if you follow the people I follow, but most people don't see these, so I'm not going to say that you never see them.

Philip Pape: 4:20

The more people you follow that do have that kind of nuance in their language, the more you'll see. But it doesn't get clicks, it doesn't get views, it doesn't get virality. What does is hey, I ate nothing but donuts for 30 days and look how he did it and how shredded I got, or you know, these toxic foods are destroying your metabolism and whatever it is, whatever the food of the day is it could be seed oils, it could be broccoli, doesn't matter and it's not just annoying. I mean, it's very annoying, but it is actively harmful, actively harmful. I want you guys to realize that, and that's why it's so important who we follow and who we trust, because when we exclude the middle, we're creating that false dichotomy, we're creating false choices that lead to the all or nothing thinking, to dietary extremism, to failing at what we're trying to do in the first place.

Philip Pape: 5:07

It's funny I just went to a book fair at our local library and I looked at all these old school books on dieting and weight loss and they've always had that same messaging it's this diet or that diet, and it's always an extreme. It's like here are the rules, here's how you cut things out, and it's based on psychology, because our brains love certainty. We want clear villains and heroes. We want clean versus dirty. In fact, one of my villains for the podcast is both the clean and the dirty camps. Right, that is my boogeyman, and it's a hard one to have because it's hard to be a hero of nuance. Let's just say but that's where we've got to be. So you've got healthy versus toxic, you've got good versus bad, and nutrition doesn't work that way. We can't force it into boxes, because what that does it ends up forcing what decisions we make and those decisions practically move us further from the goals. So what are those extremes? That's what I want to break down.

Philip Pape: 6:04

Next, and hence the title of this episode, let's talk about the all junk food extreme. This is the, I'll say, energy balance. Calories a calorie if it's a macros idea, but taken to the logical extreme. And this is where the straw man comes in, because it is true that a calorie is a calorie from an energy perspective, but it doesn't mean that that is the only variable at play when it comes to our nutrition. Right, it may be the only variable at play when it comes to strictly gaining or losing weight in a vacuum, but that's barely scratching the surface and the argument goes like this Since weight loss is about calorie balance, you can literally eat anything pop tarts, ice cream, fast food as long as you stay within your calorie targets. And they're not entirely wrong about the calorie part.

Philip Pape: 6:55

I saw an article in. Where was this? Oh yeah, our local newspaper has this wraparound to celebrate like 200 years of the paper or something, and there was something from the I want to say early 1900s, and it basically talked about, you know, eating less than you burn if you want to lose the weight that you added on Right, and so we've. We've known this for a long time. We have studies that show people losing weight on diets composed of just about anything, including all or mostly processed foods. You know the famous Twinkie diet professor Mark Mark, how, how, how? He lost 27 pounds eating mostly those Twinkie you know survive into the apocalypse snack cakes while staying in a calorie deficit. So we know that that part works. But what?

Philip Pape: 7:35

What it gets wrong and it gets a lot wrong is, first, micronutrients do matter. You know macros matter too, but micronutrients also matter. Your body needs vitamins, minerals, fiber, phytonutrients all of these things compounds from plants to function optimally. This is why I don't even like you know the carnivore diet, for example, that excludes so much of that from plants, because it's the same idea. It's like we're trying to get a result from looking at one variable excluding the rest, and good luck getting adequate nutrition from pop tarts, and you'll be deficient in dozens of essential nutrients if you do that.

Philip Pape: 8:08

Second, satiety being full is so crucial for adherence. It's probably the number one variable for adherence. Processed foods are engineered to be hyper palatable and very easy to overeat. That's what they're designed for. I'm not going to blame the companies for doing that. They make them that way on purpose. Good luck staying in a calorie deficit when you're fighting food addiction or binging or lack of satiety because you're eating mostly processed foods right, sure, we want to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight, lose fat, but it's very hard to do so when you're eating mostly processed foods.

Philip Pape: 8:46

Third, the health markers beyond weight. Right, weight, I guess, is a health marker, but there are so many health markers beyond weight that matter that we often ignore in these discussions. We're always talking about weight loss. Now I'll be the first to say that losing significant weight if you're unhealthy, in and of itself is probably the biggest factor toward lots of things improving from inflammation to gut health, to immunity, to even just it helps you lose body fat. But we also have to think about blood sugar control and cardiovascular health and muscle mass and function and all of those things that are influenced by how we move, how we train and how we eat right. And so just reducing it to if it fits your macros is not enough. It will get you to a certain extent and it will allow you to put some structure and control over your diet, but only to a point if you're not paying attention to all these other things. And control over your diet, but only to a point if you're not paying attention to all these other things.

Philip Pape: 9:40

And then the last thing about the all junk food approach is it ignores the psychological component. Food is more than fuel. Right, it should be fuel, but it also is tied to our emotions and our culture, our ethnicity, our social connections. And so this, even if it's not the all junk food, but if it's, if it's your fit, your macros, we're reducing it to pure mathematics. We tend to miss that human element, and I've gotten caught in that trap where I'm very focused on even even focused on hitting the numbers that I want to hit, and it causes me to make weird decisions in social situations that aren't always aligned with my bigger goal as being a human in society or with my family. Now, sometimes it is, sometimes that does come first, but when we reduce it to something like just calories or just macros, this can often happen. So that's the all junk food diet extreme, I'll say, where it doesn't matter, quote, unquote what you eat.

Philip Pape: 10:35

The other extreme, the other side, is clean eating, and I'm actually going to pound on these guys a lot more, because that's where I see a lot of the toxic behavior coming from, as well as the emotional issues around food that get developed. The obsessiveness around it tends to be more on this side. Yes, we have a little bit of obsessiveness on the other side, but when people have created moral categories around food right, chicken breast is good, cookies bad One cheat meal means you failed, need to start over tomorrow. I don't even use the term cheat meal, but you get the idea and I've heard on podcasts people trying to go the other direction and say, well, all these new diet people saying nutrition, people saying that there are no good versus bad foods Of course there's good versus bad, right, and you hear that false dichotomy come up over and over again and I probably said, hey, there's no good or bad, but we wanna add some context and nuance to that. So what does it get right? Well, whole foods are generally more nutrient-dense foods. They are more satiating per calorie. They support better health.

Philip Pape: 11:36

The food quality piece is extremely valid. It is. I don't want to deny that. That's the point. I don't want to deny that. That one piece of it is great. In fact, I will tell people hey, eat 80, 85% whole foods and you're golden as long as they meet your other goals, right, as long as they meet your calories and macros and the other things. It's kind of a blend of the two.

Philip Pape: 11:55

But where this whole clean eating philosophy goes way off track is the first thing is it moralizes the food in a way that is psychologically damaging. Period when you label foods as good or bad. This is the thing. When you do that, you are setting yourself up for guilt and for shame and for an unhealthy relationship with eating. I don't care if you think seed oils are harmful and processed foods harmful and therefore a Pop-Tart is quote-unquote bad, simply by labeling that, moralizing it instead of just saying it is a food that has these characteristics. Does that align with what I'm trying to do? That is what creates that unhealthy relationship. Secondly, it's just unnecessarily restrictive. There is no evidence that 100%, quote unquote clean eating is required for health or body composition goals, right, and in fact the stress of trying to eat perfectly is often more harmful mentally than the occasional treat, and we know that people inevitably will binge their foods again and again anyway when they try to keep them away 100% and try to abstain with everything. The third thing here is that restriction leads to binge episodes, which I just alluded to. So I kind of jumped the gun. Research is consistent in showing that rigid dietary constraint increases the likelihood of binge eating period.

Philip Pape: 13:11

Hey, this is Philip, and before we continue, I want to talk about cookware. We all love to make our own food. I love nonstick pans. The problem is I've avoided them for years because when they get scratched, when they get heated, they can release microplastics, pfas small particles that can accumulate over time in the body and some studies have shown them to be linked to health issues. If you're optimizing your nutrition and making lots of food for you and your family at home, it doesn't make sense to compromise that with questionable cookware. So that's why I was interested when Chef's Foundry, who is sponsoring this episode, showed me their ceramic cookware. It's called the P600 and uses Swiss engineered ceramic coating which has no Teflon, no PFAS, no plastic components. It is nonstick, it works on all stovetops, it goes straight into the oven All the things you need if you're trying to cook a lot of your meals at home. Right now you can get the P600 at 50% off by going to witsandweightscom slash chefsfoundry. You'll also get a bunch of accessories with that. There's a whole page that explains what you'll get for that discounted 50% off. Go to witsandweightscom, slash chefsfoundry or click the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 14:22

All right, let's get back to the show. Tell someone they can never have ice cream again, and what's the first thing that they're going to crave all the time? Ice cream. Of course we know this. This is pretty intuitive by now. And then, finally, the restrictive mindset here is socially isolating. When you can't eat at restaurants, you can't enjoy birthday cake, you can't participate in the party and eat what's provided or what your grandmother bakes for the holiday, you're just trading all of these moments of social connection for dietary purity right Now.

Philip Pape: 14:54

Again, I alluded to the fact before you don't have to be all or nothing here. There are cases where, if someone is pushing something on you over and over and over again, you have to create some balance and boundaries. That's fine. I'm talking about the idea that you can't ever a hundred percent, just because you feel like you have this false dichotomy in your head that you have to stick with. So if both extremes are problematic, what does the research actually support? And the answer is beautifully boring A diet primarily based on nutrient-dense whole foods with room for some discretionary calories from foods you enjoy.

Philip Pape: 15:28

That's it. I know it sounds simple. You probably hear it a lot. You hear 80-20, right, and it actually works. But it has to work for you in the way that you want to construct it. So if I give you some numbers, right, research says that getting 80% to 90% of your calories from minimally processed nutrient-dense foods provides most of the health and satiety benefits you're looking for. The remaining 10% to 20%, that is your flexibility buffer. That's like your buffer that solves all those other issues, including the psychological ones. And this is not just theory. There have been studies on this that look at flexible versus rigid dietary constraint and they're always showing better outcomes for the flexible approach. It just kind of makes sense, right? But I know we can't just rely on common sense and anecdote. It helps to have data as well. But people who allow themselves that little bit of wiggle room, some freedom in their diet, have better long-term maintenance of their weight. They have lower rates of binge eating. They have better psychological relationships with food. Right, and again, we're not talking about the extremes.

Philip Pape: 16:27

Don't take this to mean, oh, you can eat whatever you want. Of course not. I just set the whole context of why. That's not what I'm saying. We know that metabolic ward studies show us that, while calorie balance of course drives weight change it always does they naturally just eat more calories. When they eat more whole foods, they naturally eat fewer calories. In other words, the quality of your overall diet will affect the quality of your diet. Isn't that kind of interesting, right? And you know this. It's not that you're addicted. It's not that, oh, I just had some candy and all of a sudden I'm just going to go crazy on candy. It's more of your overall dietary pattern.

Philip Pape: 17:19

If you eat mostly whole foods, you know what you are going to crave mostly whole foods. You're not going to have as much of a sweet tooth. That's how I am today. I used to love candy. I used to love sweets. I almost had to force myself to just enjoy a couple gummy worms or something that my kids offer me. It's like, oh, that's okay, that tastes good, that's sweet, that's fine, and you know, whatever not like, it used to be right. You lose those inhibitions Now. That doesn't mean you're not going to have specific foods that you want to binge to the day you die. That that's definitely the case with some people, and there's tools that you can support that. We're also not saying you have to have all foods that are in the indulgent spectrum as part of your 10 or 20%. You can abstain from certain foods if that's helpful to you and allow in other foods that serve the same purpose for you, if that makes sense, whether it's a craving or an experience or what have you.

Philip Pape: 18:09

So this is a nuanced, evidence-based approach and that's exactly what this podcast is all about. That is what we teach inside the physique university. You know, we see people all the time that are tired. They're just exhausted of bouncing between this diet and that diet and, oh, now it's my hormones, and now I have this condition, and now it's my thyroid, and so now I have to be in this diet. This person on social media said this doesn't support my thyroid, this doesn't support this. What about when I'm trying to build muscle? What about when I'm trying to lose fat? Right, it's exhausting. And then none of those things ever stick because it feels like these very specific, highly restrictive solutions for specific problems rather than an overall sustainable system that just works no matter what you do long-term.

Philip Pape: 18:54

You can change the levers and dials. Right, you can change the calorie dial, but just start scaling things up and down. When I'm in a fat loss phase and I'm eating only, say, 1800 or 2000 calories, of course I'm going to eat a lot fewer just food and a lot less food in general, including processed food than when I'm eating 3,500 or 4,000 calories. Maybe the percentages are similar, maybe not. It depends on what I need to make me successful. But there's a lot of flex in there. So I'm just mentioning that that is so important and sometimes it helps to have people in your corner to support you. That's why we have Physique University it's just 27 a month free nutrition plan included, if you use my custom link in the show notes. And I want to continue here talking about behavioral psychology, because I think that is really crucial here and we have to talk about it.

Philip Pape: 19:39

Flexible dietary restraint, where you have guidelines but not rigid rules Okay, guidelines but not rigid rules is going to correlate with better long-term outcomes. Again, it's not eat whatever you want. It's not intuitive eating. It's guidelines instead of rules. Rigid restraint that is where foods are strictly forbidden. That correlates with higher rates of eating disorders and weight regain. So we want flexible restraint, not rigid restraint. Think about those terms. The word restraint is in both. There's guidelines in both, there are boundaries in both, but one is flexible, one is rigid, and this does make intuitive sense when you think about it.

Philip Pape: 20:22

If you tell yourself you can never have pizza again, what happens when you inevitably do have pizza? You feel like you've blown it. It often leads to well, I might as well keep going, I'll get back to it on Monday and then a full binge episode. But if pizza is just one food among many in your overall dietary pattern, having a slice or two, it's not a moral failing. It's just Tuesday Decided to have pizza on Tuesday, all right.

Philip Pape: 20:47

So now we get to the implementation. How do we implement this middle ground approach? I'm gonna give you a few guidelines as part of a framework. Okay, the first one is the 85-15 rule. Now, I mentioned we're not having rules, but rule here is, in the colloquial sense, as in a rule of thumb right, a thumb suck. You're going to go up and down depending on what you need.

Philip Pape: 21:07

Now I talk about 80-20 a lot, but I think 85% is a good place to aim for, especially when you are in a fat loss phase and when you look at the numbers. When you look at the numbers, okay, so if you get 85% of your calories from minimally processed, nutrient dense foods right, which gives you all the health and satiety benefits you want, leaves 15% for pure enjoyment foods. What does that look like? Well, if you're eating 2000 calories a day, that's 300 calories of flexibility. That could be a few cookies, a muffin, a big chunk of dark chocolate, like whatever you enjoy. 300 calories a day is actually a decent amount when you think about it, when you're planning it in and thinking in this flexible way, as opposed to just ad hoc, intuitively eating whatever you want and snacking right, snacking is a big challenge too for folks. Now, you could do 80-20, you could do 85-15, you could do 90-10. Even that is flexible, based on the number of calories. You have to work with what you like to eat. I have clients who just love whole foods, so almost all their foods are whole foods and then occasionally they have a really indulgent treat. So that's the first one. Just have a ratio for yourself in numbers, in other words, know what calories you're eating. If you're in a fat loss phase, eating, let's say, 1500 calories, then maybe 200, it's 200 calories of flexibility a day, all right.

Philip Pape: 22:27

The second principle here is having macro targets, yes, but with food quality guidelines. So, instead of just tracking macros or just focusing on food quality, do both right. Have your targets, use something like Macrofactor to track your food, and have targets for your body composition goals, right, and your calorie goals. So you've got your calories and, within that, your protein, fat, carb targets, but you're trying to hit those through whole food sources to focus on food quality. That's really all it is, and your protein might come from chicken, fish, eggs, greek yogurt most of the time, with the occasional protein bar when life gets busy. Your carbs are going to be mostly from fruits, vegetables, grains, starches, most of the time, with some room for ice cream on the weekend. And remember most of these indulgences pizza, ice cream, muffins are usually a combination of macros and not very much protein. Very often, right, even pizza, unless you get, like it, loaded with lean meats, which is a very rare thing, let's be honest. Usually it's sausage and pepperoni. You know, very fatty meats, a lot of fatty cheese. Right, it's going to have a lot of fats and carbs in there. So you're kind of covering both with that. But on the indulgent flexibility. So if you're really to sum this all up, I would say the vast majority of protein is going to come from whole foods. Some of your fats and carbs might be where the reserved calories come from. For the indulgences Maybe. Again, unless it's like a protein bar, then it's kind of a neat little hybrid. So that's.

Philip Pape: 23:52

The second one is macro targets with food quality guidelines. The next one is the principle of context. The same food can be appropriate or inappropriate depending on context, on the situation. This is why I don't like this rejection of no foods can't be good or bad. Yeah, foods can't be good or bad, which is what I generally say. And then people are like rejecting that, saying no, no, no, they absolutely can't. No, it's context.

Philip Pape: 24:19

A Gatorade during a two-hour training session where you didn't get your pre-workout and you're short on carbs, could be extremely helpful. But if you just get that as an indulgent drink while you're sitting on the couch watching Netflix, probably not. I mean, I shouldn't have to explain this, but I think it does help to understand that, that you shouldn't beat yourself up based on the context. I mean, don't beat yourself up at all, but understand this. You know, post-workout fast food because you're genuinely hungry and it's your only option might be okay in that context Now, maybe it's Chick-fil-A with grilled chicken, with some of the waffle fries or something I don't know versus something that is farther away from your macro goals.

Philip Pape: 25:02

But if you have that every single day because you don't plan for your food and because you get stressed, that's not optimal. There are differences here, and even the first example, where you're hungry and it's your only option, you probably could have planned better. But we always have our next best choice. That is my point, and that's context is everything. And so that segues into the last piece of practical implementation here, which is planning ahead. Like, planning ahead is the thing that glues everything together.

Philip Pape: 25:30

If you can plan for the flexibility and I know that sounds counterintuitive, but it's not, because, remember, we're talking about flexible restraint, not anarchy, not quote unquote intuitive eating anything goes and eat whatever you want. We're talking about planned in restrained flexibility, rather than trying to spontaneously make perfect choices. Do you see the difference? A lot of us, we think we have a plan in our head and then in the moment, we're going to make great choices. No, it doesn't work that way. We're human beings. We get stressed, we get distracted. Right, it doesn't work. That way we get fatigued. Plan for that flexibility.

Philip Pape: 26:05

If you know you're going out for pizza Friday night, work that in to your plan. Whether that's your calories, your macros, your micros, whatever you feel like it is or isn't going to serve, pizza is going to give you some of the things you want and need. It will, but not everything, and it might take away from others. So make make the indulgence part of your, say, 15%. Don't pretend that it's not going to happen when every single Friday night you know you end up going out, even when you don't think you're going to, and then feel guilty when it does happen. Right, it's like don't pretend that Christmas isn't going to happen and therefore you didn't save up to buy gifts, right, it always happens.

Philip Pape: 26:42

The stuff in your life happens, and this could mean a whole bunch of different things to plan around it. It could mean eating a bit lighter during the day, friday, and starting with your lean proteins and vegetables. It could be, you know, shifting your training day around or getting some extra walking in. I mean, I don't like to move the calories or to burn the calories through movement, right, but just thinking about how you're moving things around and accepting that one day of higher calories in the context of a week of appropriate eating is completely fine. And when we say 15% of your 100%, it doesn't have to be daily.

Philip Pape: 27:15

Some people have a very boring Monday through Friday with their planned out meals, and it's all whole foods, and then they quote unquote, save their indulgences all for the weekend. You can do whatever you want, absolutely enjoy it. That's the whole point Flexible restraint. Now, when you think about this middle ground, it's really a game changer. I mean this is the thing that changed my life when it comes to nutrition, because when you stop moralizing food, you start making better choices automatically. Again, it sounds counterintuitive, but I see it with clients all the time. Somebody finally gives themselves permission to have the ice cream and then they stop thinking about ice cream constantly.

Philip Pape: 27:54

When cookies are not forbidden, they become less interesting, right? I mean it's fascinating how that works. It's like that old saying the best way to get someone to do something is tell them they can't do it. Right? That's when we remove the forbidden fruit aspect from foods. That is where they lose their power over us. So instead of spending your mental energy fighting the cravings, feeling guilty about food choices, you can redirect that energy toward things that matter, like your training, like your sleep, like managing your stress, because the middle ground isn't just about these physical outcomes, which are definitely real. It's going to improve your physical outcome, but it's the food freedom. It's being able to go to a restaurant with friends without anxiety and say no, I can't have that, I can't have that, I can't have that. It's about enjoying birthday cake without guilt. It's about building a sustainable relationship with food that serves you for life and not just the next dieting phase, and that, more than any macro split or food rule, that's what separates the people who maintain the results long-term from those who end up yo-yo dieting forever. There you go.

Philip Pape: 28:55

All right, if you enjoyed this episode, I want you to check out episode 194, why macros might be all you need to streamline your nutrition. It's an interesting one. That sounds contradictory to what I talked about today, but it's actually a gateway into this idea of flexible restraint from both angles from the macros angle and from the food quality angle. So I think it's a good companion to the discussion today about finding that balance Link is going to be in the show notes to that, to episode 194. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember the most radical thing you can do in today's extreme dieting culture is to be boringly moderate. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Ozempic Envy, GLP-1 Microdosing, and the Weight Loss Wars | Ep 355

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The psychology behind weight loss methods has created a moral battleground where people judge themselves and others based on whether they use traditional lifestyle approaches or pharmaceutical interventions like GLP-1 drugs.

People are losing 40 pounds on Ozempic or secretly microdosing GLP-1 drugs, while underground resentment brews between those who "did it the hard way" and those accused of taking "shortcuts."

We're keeping it real about the psychology behind the Weight Loss Wars using a (more reasonable) systems-based approach that eliminates judgment while optimizing for what actually matters: YOUR sustainable results.

Main Takeaways:

• "Ozempic envy" reveals more about our relationship with effort than with results

• Fat loss is an engineering problem, not a moral issue

• GLP-1 microdosing creates fascinating case studies in behavior modification (and still requires building lifestyle skills)

• The most successful people combine external tools with internal skill development

• Stop keeping score of who's doing it "right" and start engineering systems that work sustainably for YOU

Episode Mentioned:

• Eat More To Lose Weight? (The Iron Triangle of Fat Loss)

Timestamps:

0:00 - The Weight Loss Wars and moral superiority
3:00 - What is "Ozempic Envy"?
8:00 - GLP-1 microdosing
11:00 - Why we assign moral value to effort and struggle
15:00 - GLP-1s and/or lifestyle skills
18:00 - Designing YOUR system (ignoring distractions)
22:00 - Lifelines vs. shortcuts
24:00 - How to stop the weight loss wars

Navigating Ozempic Envy and the Weight Loss Wars

There’s a new tension in the fitness world that goes way beyond macros and reps. It’s the unspoken competition between people who lose fat through years of lifting, meal planning, and habit building, and those who use GLP‑1 drugs like Ozempic or Mounjaro to accelerate weight loss. You see it in the office when a coworker drops 40 pounds in half a year. You hear it on social media when someone quietly admits they’re microdosing these medications. And you feel it in the conversations where people defend their chosen path as morally superior.

In this episode, I break down why this is happening and how you can approach your own goals without getting pulled into what I call the weight loss wars. It’s not about taking sides. It’s about understanding that these drugs, like any tool, are one component in a larger system.

Why we attach moral value to weight loss

Many of us who’ve put in years of consistent training, tracking, and mindset work see our transformation as something we’ve earned. The struggle becomes part of our identity. When someone loses weight faster through medication, it can feel like our hard-earned narrative is being devalued. On the flip side, someone on medication may feel dismissed or judged, even when they’re putting in real effort alongside their prescription.

This is where envy creeps in. But it isn’t really about body weight. It’s about the story we tell ourselves about what our effort says about who we are. That’s human, but it can also be toxic if we let it cloud our thinking or turn us against each other.

Microdosing and building skills

There’s a growing trend of people microdosing GLP‑1 drugs, taking a fraction of the prescribed dose to dampen appetite without fully relying on the medication. For some, it’s a way to give themselves space to practice new habits without the overwhelming hunger signals they’ve battled for years. We don’t yet have long-term data on this approach, but it makes sense from a systems perspective: a minimal intervention that still leaves room for skill-building.

No matter what, those skills still matter. Medications don’t teach you how to plan meals, lift weights, or build resilience. They can buy you time, but you still need to build a foundation that will outlast any prescription.

Stop keeping score

The moralizing around weight loss methods helps no one. It doesn’t matter if someone chooses medication, macro tracking, or both. What matters is whether the system they build is sustainable. The reality is that many people who succeed with GLP‑1s long term would also succeed through lifestyle alone—if they had the right support sooner. And many people who pride themselves on doing it “naturally” may be clinging to struggle as part of their identity, even when another tool could help.

Engineer your own system

Think like an engineer. What inputs—training, nutrition, sleep, stress management, medications—will create the outputs you want, with the least cost to your health, time, and energy? Your journey isn’t a moral contest. It’s an optimization problem.

If you’re using GLP‑1s, pair them with strength training and protein to protect muscle. If you’re not, stop worrying about what others are doing and double down on your own habits. Either way, focus on skills you can sustain long after any prescription ends.

The weight loss wars don’t have to define your journey. You can respect your effort, respect others’ choices, and build a system that works for you. Show up, lift with intention, and commit to a process that supports your goals for years to come.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

your co-worker drops 40 pounds in six months on ozempic and suddenly everyone's questioning whether your two years of lifting and tracking macros really counts. Meanwhile, people are secretly microdosing glp-1 drugs, trying to hack their appetite without admitting they're using medication. And then there's the underground resentment brewing between those who did it the hard way and those taking what some see as pharmaceutical shortcuts. Today we're discussing the psychology behind what I call the weight loss wars, why fat loss has become a battleground of moral superiority and how a systems thinking approach can help you navigate this mess without losing your sanity or your gains. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:57

I'm your host certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're going to tackle one of these emotionally charged topics in fitness at the moment, and that is the social and psychological warfare happening around the GLP-1 drugs. You know them Ozempic, manjaro, all of them. This isn't about the medications, though. This is about how we assign moral value to different paths toward the same goal, and why understanding the systems behind our judgments can free us from both the envy and the guilt. So, if you're considering these drugs, if you're avoiding them on principle, if you're secretly resenting someone who uses them. I think today's episode will give you a framework for thinking clearly about tools, outcomes and what drives sustainable change. And before we get into it, if you've been nodding along already and thinking, yeah, I need to stop second guessing myself, focus on myself and just build a system that works for me, crowd out the noise, forget about all the nonsense and the distractions. I don't want you to just listen and binge my content. I want you to take action inside wits and weights. Physique university is where you can do that. You'll get the tools to train more intelligently, to eat more flexibly and with clarity, to stop getting caught up in other people's methods and hopping around and getting overwhelmed with all the craziness in social media.

Philip Pape: 2:18

And we've worked with many, many people who are on these drugs and, again, you may not be taking them. You may not wanna take them. Today's episode, I think, covers a lot of areas of the psychology around this, but we've definitely worked on people, with people on drugs like terzepatide, helping them build the foundation they need to eventually transition off of them while maintaining the results. Not that you have to do that, but a lot of people want to do that. So if you want a framework for this we just relaunched at a much lower price, more accessible to so many more people. Used to be 87 a month, now it's 27 a month and I still have my exclusive link in the show notes. If you use it, I'm also going to throw in a custom nutrition plan that I build for you. The link is in the show notes. I'll see you there.

Philip Pape: 3:00

But let's talk about today's topic, what we're actually dealing with, because the conversation is already happening. It's happening everywhere. It's on social media, it's in the office, it's in person, it's everywhere. But I think most people don't have the language for what's really going on because it's so new and we're so emotionally charged with this stuff.

Philip Pape: 3:20

So I came up with a phrase called Ozempic Envy. I haven't even Googled it. Maybe it's trademarked, I don't know. It just came to my head one day, and ozempic envy is what I'm calling the emotional and the social tension between people who lose weight using these drugs the GLP-1 receptor agonists, right and those who do it through what we traditionally think of as lifestyle changes. What I'm all about on wits and weights well before these drugs came around, but I think it's more complex, it's more nuanced. It's not just the jealousy we're talking about here, because on one side, you have people who've spent years trying to do the quote unquote right thing, the lifestyle changes, mastering their nutrition, grinding through all the roadblocks along the way, learning to to love vegetables, like I did, building the discipline from following a process to hit the gym consistently, to train consistently, to, to do all the behavioral changes involved, and they see that their identity is at least partly built on that effort. Right, that that's like a transformation story. Many of you are going through that right now. Many of you have in fact said, hey, I'm not, I want to do this, naturally, I don't want to go on drugs, right, and it's that mentality and I'm not judging anyone on any side of this equation. Please stick with me. You're going to see where this comes out the other side.

Philip Pape: 4:39

So that's, on one side, people who've been trying to make the lifestyle changes, and then on the other side, you have people taking the medications inject themselves with some aglutide or trisepatide or one of these, and they might drop 15 to 20% of their body weight in a year with what the outside sees as minimal effort. Right, and we know about the research. The data is there. This is quite a miracle drug. At this point the STEP trials are referenced all the time, step that show an average weight loss of about 15% with semaglutide versus maybe 2% with placebo right. So it helps a lot of people who have been struggling, even when they're trying to lose weight, lose fat, get healthy. And it's obvious why people might need, want, be prescribed, desire whatever adjective or is that an adjective verb you want to use for these drugs.

Philip Pape: 5:31

Where I think it gets interesting about this whole Ozempic envy thing is I don't think the envy right and envy comes from different groups here. It's not about the weight loss, but the story that comes with the weight loss. About the weight loss, but the story that comes with the weight loss. When someone loses weight through what we'll call the traditional methods, right, they're not just doing the thing they're, they're gaining some sort of narrative and identity shift. Like I'm the type of person who can make choices and stick to hard things, I've overcome my impulses. Let's say I've, I've earned this, I've earned this body, and then that becomes part of their identity. Now I'm not saying there aren't equally as many unhealthy identities that have come along when someone has lost weight, I'll say the through through behavioral methods, but not necessarily the right way.

Philip Pape: 6:18

And that's where it gets really complicated. And I'm not even talking about the drugs when I say that. I'm talking about crash dieting. Right, crash dieting detoxes all the things that are not sustainable that we talk about, and then when someone gets results of weight loss and they've done the medication, it can feel like that story gets devalued for them, even if they are in parallel doing the lifestyle changes. And honestly, I believe it's a crime for a doctor to prescribe the medication and not give any guidance or advice or direction on the weight training or the lifting weights to hold on to muscle, to eating protein, to making sure you don't eat too little, because I've seen this problem where you just don't have an appetite and you really under eat and it doesn't help you. You crash diet, you lose weight fast, but then it's not sustainable unless you stay on the drug.

Philip Pape: 7:10

And so I want to help everybody through this message. And yet somebody who's used the medication, whether or not they've done it the quote unquote right way supporting themselves with lifestyle, they can feel like their story gets devalued and that their effort doesn't matter as much as someone else. And that's where all this friction comes from. It's like jealousy all over the place. The envy is everywhere, on all sides, right?

Philip Pape: 7:28

So I want to start there as the premise and then I want to touch on some side topics related to this that I see in the industry right now and a big one right now is microdosing. Okay, microdosing and it gets fascinating here because I see a lot of rationalization going on and when you think of behavioral engineering, this is a good story. Some people are microdosing these drugs and all that means is you're taking a lower than prescribed dose of the medications and it's not because you can't afford the full dose, right, it's because you, you're deliberately doing that to help with your appetite, your appetite awareness. Maybe you are the type of person who feels like I I want to split the difference, I don't want to go all out, all into the drug, but I want to try it and see if it helps my appetite and get that nudge toward better eating habits while improving the lifestyle. Okay, again, no judgment on that, but I'm but. So the but.

Philip Pape: 8:19

Here is what I think people are doing in some cases. Not everyone is maybe trying to hack their own psychology just a bit, right, it's kind of that building that safety net of reduced hunger, but then they don't want to override their natural signals. So I understand that. I understand the trade-off and compromise they're trying to make. They're trying to engineer this middle ground between pharmaceutical intervention and, I hate to say, willpower, because we all know we can develop healthy eating habits without willpower. That's what we do here when we talk about the tools to change your behavior.

Philip Pape: 8:53

But I feel like some people you know they're frustrated. They feel like it does take willpower and, I'll be honest, it takes action. There is action that is required, like getting the cookies off of your counter into your drawer that takes action. There is action that is required Like getting the cookies off of your counter into your drawer that takes an action to change your environment right. Those little things, those are all actions. That is true. And whether you want to argue that's willpower or not, I'm talking about the white knuckling like in the moment. Stress is high, emotion's high and then I'm going to all of a sudden, just for the first time ever, choose not to eat the cookies, right? We know that. That's not how it works, so it's understandable.

Philip Pape: 9:27

People want that little bit of a nudge and from a like, a systems design perspective, thinking like an engineer, with data and tools. It makes perfect sense, like, if your goal is long-term behavior change, you want the minimum effective, the most efficient intervention that still allows you to build skills and habits. If you have too much of that intervention, like the full dose of the drugs, you're probably thinking okay, I'm going to become dependent and I'm not really going to learn the thing because I'm getting miswired signals to my brain, right, just by virtue, by definition of how it works. But if I have too little like or none at all, I don't get the results. I need to build momentum.

Philip Pape: 9:55

So I want a little bit of a kick in the pants for my brain related genes, my appetite, and I guess I guess the challenge here is, right now we don't have clinical data on the microdosing you know to, to know how effective it is really, although we could extrapolate and we could use basic math and like okay, well, if I take half the dose, I might have to have the result, but we can't oversimplify, right? So people are essentially running experiments on themselves and then we have anecdotal reports, we have Instagram posts, we have podcasters, we have whole programs built around micro dosing and again, I don't want to sound judgmental toward that, I haven't tried it myself. Heck, if I did it today, if I started it, would I find that, oh, this is actually an amazing tool. Now, when I do a fat loss phase, maybe I can micro dose. It takes away the appetite and I can more easily control myself, and I can more easily control myself. But then the other side of me says no, I really want to inherently build it in to my system, right, not through willpower, but hey, I plan my meals out to have more fibrous foods, knowing that fiber gives me more volume, knowing that that's gonna help with my hunger signals, and then it allows me to eat in a way that I wanna eat for the long term. Right, and can you do that while microdosing on GLP-1s? Yes, and I also help people do that while they're on there so that they could transition off of them is kind of the point.

Philip Pape: 11:10

But, but, but and I'm going to keep saying but, because I want to hedge myself here and there when it comes to psychology and when it comes to judging people, because I want to zoom out and look at why this creates the emotional reactions that we have A lot of. It is about us. A lot of it's about us as individuals, not about you, not about others. By you I mean the other right At its core. It's not about Ozempic, it's how we assign moral value to different types of effort, because we have a deeply ingrained belief we're all human beings that the human struggle, the struggle, equals virtue. Right Sisyphus, pushing the rock up the mountain from Greek mythology struggle equals virtue, that the harder path is the more noble path.

Philip Pape: 11:50

And admittedly, I talk about doing hard things all the time. But I'm also talking about being efficient and minimum effective dose. So do these reconcile with each other? And so if I'm an engineer and I said let's go with this more complicated solution because it's going to be automatically better than a simple one, because it's harder, that's nonsense. That's not how optimization works. So it's always tricky when I use language on this show we talk about like smarter, not harder. Well, maybe, maybe not more efficient, maybe it might be hard. It might be hard in a different way than something else. Is hard like hard beating yourself against the wall, cracking your skull, not getting a result, is worse than a hard that moves you forward by leaps and bounds. And so when someone says, like I did it the hard way. What they're really saying is I want credit for the difficulty of my method, not just the outcome. Right, and that makes sense psychologically, because effort justification that's a cognitive bias. We value things more when we worked harder for them. Yes, but we've got method and we've got outcome. And what are we actually trying to optimize for? So I'm going to go back to the whole engineering thing about optimization.

Philip Pape: 12:59

If the goal is sustainable fat loss and improved health, the quote unquote best method is the one that achieves that goal most reliably for the individual, with the fewest negative side effects, at the lowest cost. Not just financial costs, time costs, stress costs, opportunity costs, all of it. And if you're not sure what I mean by opportunity costs, that's the cost of not making a choice, that's the cost of having chosen something different. So for some people that might be GLP-1 medications this is my point. For others it might be structured nutrition and training and for many people guess what? It might be a combination of both, at different levels of both, including microdosing. And so the judgment comes in when we start conflating the method with our character, with our identity, when we start thinking about how the way you lose weight says something about who you are as a person. So they're all tools, is my point.

Philip Pape: 13:47

If I'm going to give you the TLDR here Now again I mentioned, if you're on a medication like this GLP-1, or you're considering it long term, you're going to need more than the drug to create lasting change. I mean you could be on the drug for the rest of your life. I suppose That'd get pretty darn expensive and I don't think anybody wants to depend on anything like that the rest of their life period. I take a what do you call it? Biologic for a condition I have and I technically have to be on that the rest of my life because there's not really a way to deal with it Otherwise. I don't want to do that, but I kind of have to, barring some extreme or some new cure that comes along.

Philip Pape: 14:22

But when it comes to this stuff, we can work with you. You can listen to the show. You can put in basic principles of food planning, meal planning, meal prep, tracking, food volume right and be successful. But sometimes you need others to help you do that and you need ideas from people and you need to crowd out the noise. We do this in Physique University. I just want to mention that one more time. We've helped a lot of folks in there do this exact thing. I can hook you up with some individuals who are on, for example, teresapatide and have come off, and there's a strategic way we do that. By the way, that's not just hey, come off and you're done. It's how do we align that with the calories you're eating and the phases of training and physique development? So, physique university 27 a month used to be 87. Now it's 27.

Philip Pape: 15:07

I've got an exclusive link in the show notes where if you use that link, I'll get triggered, not triggered, I'll get notified and then I'll know to give you a custom nutrition plan for free, instead of the add on. Like, if you go through the public link you have to pay for it. So it'd be free and I don't want you to just say, like, throw up your hands and say I need to rely on these meds forever If you want to come off, if you want to build your system alongside it for your lifestyle, but still stay on it for a while, or microdose or whatever, we can help you do that. So use the link in the show notes for that. So how do we think about this more clearly. Well, I want to propose a framework that focuses on your system, on designing your system, rather than moral judgment. And I first need to be clear about something. Okay, if I haven't been already I absolutely support people who choose to use, or need to use, glp-1 drugs.

Philip Pape: 15:55

If you have significant weight to lose for your health, if you've spent a lifetime struggling with appetite regulation, emotional eating, which can be genetic, brain-related genes I had Stephan Guine on the show quite a while back talking about that it can also be the result of years of I hate to say, damage, but years of suppressed metabolism and fat gain due to yo-yo dieting and restriction. For that type of person, these medications can be life-changing tools. There's no shame in using every tool available to improve your health and quality of life, but and this is crucial the medication is one component of a larger system. You still need the lifestyle foundation to make the results sustainable. Even individuals like Dr Spencer Nadalsky, who praises these drugs, says it's the drugs and the lifestyle. It's not just the drug. Could it be just the lifestyle? For sure, but some people benefit from having the added tool of the drug, and so, if you think of the whole compendium of fat loss tools, right, your whole toolbox.

Philip Pape: 16:58

They're all different components in a system. You have the behavioral components habit formation, meal planning. You've got physiological components, like the strength training, like eating your protein. You have the psychological components, like managing your stress, like eating your protein. You have the psychological components, like managing your stress or how you perceive your stress, like sleep, optimizing your sleep, but from a psychological perspective. And you've got and I don't, that's a whole separate episode and now you've got the pharmacological components. So behavioral, physiological, psychological, pharmacological and each component has trade-offs. That's what it comes down to. The behavioral components require your time, they require developing skills, but they do build long-term resilience and capability. Pharmacological components are going to work faster but may create dependency if you don't pair them with skill building. So I want to help you build your skills, whether or not using these other tools at the same time. And the question isn't which component is morally superior? Right, that's like there's no good or bad foods. We talk about that. The question is what combination of components creates for you the most robust and sustainable system.

Philip Pape: 18:08

So if you've been dieting for decades yo-yo dieting and you've developed a dysfunctional relationship with your hunger cues, a GLP-1 drug might provide stability, to learn proper portion control and food selection so that the hunger cues aren't so utterly distracting that it prevents you from doing that. It's not a crutch, it's more like scaffolding right, when you see scaffolding on a building it's going to go away, but you can build everything and support everything while you build the building. But you still have to build the building. You still have to build the skills. The medication is not going to teach you how to eat for satiety. In fact it overrides those signals, which makes it a little bit more challenging. But it gives you the time, the space, to build that skill.

Philip Pape: 18:53

In fact, I mentioned microdosing Many clients I have. They've reduced the dose as they've increased the food volume and their hunger starts to go up slowly, while their ability to naturally manage hunger signals also goes up at the same time. So the skill is going up, up, up up, the dosage coming down, down, down, down. Eventually the dose is gone and the skill is at its max. That make sense. Hopefully you can visualize that right. And so there's your training, there's your sleep and stress, there's all the lifestyle things right, and the medication is not going to create those habits for you.

Philip Pape: 19:28

So yeah, I get the envy or the jealousy for people who've just taken the drug, lost a bunch of weight. They don't do anything else and they're walking around like look at me, I get the envy for that. I also think who cares Like don't worry about them, it's not going to work out for them in the longterm unless they also do the skills. And if you're one of those people listening to me, no moral judgment to you. If you've never built the skills and weren't even sure you had to, or didn't know where to go, come talk to us, join us at Physique University. This is the positive lens that I'm trying to share here is I'm not going to judge you, I'm going to help you. So the reframe for this episode is fat loss is not a moral issue, it's just an engineering problem. It's a an engineering problem. It's a biological engineering problem.

Philip Pape: 20:12

You have inputs like food, activity, training, stress, sleep, genetics, hormones, medication yes, medication, that's an input, right? Because guess what? We're all on all sorts of medications beyond GLP-1 drugs. You might be on a statin, you might be on HRT, whatever. Those are the inputs. It's data. You have the outputs your energy level, your body composition, your health markers, your performance, your training, progress, et cetera. Your job or our job with you, if you want. The help is to design that system that reliably converts the inputs you can control into the outputs you want.

Philip Pape: 20:43

And some people need more tools or different tools than others. Period. Some people need more scaffolding. Some people need more intervention and more support. It doesn't make them weaker. It doesn't make them weaker. It doesn't make them less disciplined, it just makes them different. That's it. That's it okay.

Philip Pape: 20:58

So when you see someone losing weight on Ozempic, instead of thinking that's cheating, try thinking that's an interesting solution to a complex problem. I wonder what are the components that they are using to make it sustainable? That's an objective way to frame this Kind of maybe clumsy way to say it too. For those of you who are more concise writers than me, feel free to rephrase. So when you see someone who's putting in a lot of effort over, say, a two year period to transform themselves, with tracking their macros, with using fat loss and muscle building phases, going to the gym four days a week, you know, instead of thinking, okay, that's the only way to do it, just say, look, that's impressive dedication, you know. I wonder what internal and external support systems made that possible. Yeah, okay. So I want to. I want to.

Philip Pape: 21:50

I want to share something, just one last thought with you here, because I think the people who are people who are most successful with these drugs long-term are often the same people who would have been successful with traditional methods if they never did the drug and they had the support earlier. I truly believe that. I truly believe that I think, having said that it might've been extremely difficult to do so, I'm believe that I think, having said that, it might've been extremely difficult to do so. I'm not saying that, I'm not saying it's not difficult, and I don't think they're using the medication to avoid doing that. I think they're using it to make building those habits easier while they address what are oftentimes very serious health concerns or years of appetite dysfunction. Come on, guys, let's have some empathy for people. I'm sick of all the moralizing and the judgment out there. Just stop it. And if you're following somebody on Instagram who's just hammering these people, unfollow them. Just unfollow them.

Philip Pape: 22:51

Emotional eating since childhood, who tried every diet imaginable, and for them, the GLP-1 meds were not a shortcut. They were a lifeline that gave them just a little bit of breathing room to learn what normal hunger and satiety, feel like I can think of two or three clients right off the top of my head. One person, a woman, who never lifted in her life. She was in her 60s taking Ozempic. We got her training, we got her eating more food volume, really loving to throw in vegetables to her lunch and dinner, and it didn't take a lot, but it was enough to get her body recalibrated to where it needed to be so she could come off those drugs. It's incredible.

Philip Pape: 23:19

Now the flip side that might maybe it surprises you even more is some of the people who are most vocal about doing things naturally are using their struggle as a form of identity protection. They are so invested in being the person who can do hard things that they'd rather suffer than admit a tool might help. So there's a difference between doing hard things in a productive way and doing them in a way that's just I don't wanna say stupid, but it's holding you back. And both patterns reveal the same underlying truth of the universe that sustainable change requires external tools and internal development. You can't inject new habits out of nowhere, but you also can't will away decades of biological and psychological programming and so, I think, a really robust system, which is what we're about?

Philip Pape: 24:25

Wits and weights. That's what we're about. It combines the best of both. They use whatever tools are available behavioral, pharmaceutical, technological, social that they're comfortable. They're about identity, about effort, about what we think we deserve credit for, and the fact that I use the word wars intentionally, because we don't want to be dealing with wars.

Philip Pape: 24:44

Do we in this space right? It's a systems design problem. It's not a moral judgment contest, and then the conversation can shift and you can hear a little bit of emotion and passion with me today, and hopefully it's not directed in a negative way, but more in a positive of think of how many more people, think of how many more people we can help if they just understood that it's okay to combine tools and process together like this to to get their result. And it's not whether somebody earns it, it's whether you build the system, you can maintain and develop the skills. That's it. It's skills. It's skills. Guys, you know, some people are gonna do that with the drugs. Some people will do it with macros and progressive overload. Many are gonna do it with a combination of a bunch of tools that we haven't even thought of yet. Right, there's more to come. Who knows? Maybe, maybe, uh, what is it called? Myostatin blockers are going to become a tool in the future and people everybody's going to be jacked. I don't know right. Your job isn't really to judge the tools. I think your job is to engineer the system that works for you. Forget all the noise, forget judging other people. Be supportive of people, empathize, right. If you need something, you need something. Stop keeping score of who's doing it the right way. Just do it. Just do it for you, have fun, reach out, join Physique University.

Philip Pape: 25:57

And if you enjoyed this episode which I admit is a complex issue and I hope I gave it the nuance it deserved I want you to check out a different episode called Eat More to Lose Weight the triangle. Sorry, I butchered that Eat more to lose weight the iron triangle of fat loss. It's episode 204. I'm gonna link to it in the show notes, and that episode is about how you can't optimize for everything at once and have to make smart trade-offs, which I think is really apropos for what we talked about today. So, episode 204, eat more to lose weight the iron triangle of fat loss. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember the best tool is the one that gets the job done sustainably. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Q&A - Post-Bulk Fat Loss, Walking Too Much, and Diet Fatigue (Brandon DaCruz) | Ep 354

Check out the other half of our Q&A on Brandon's Chasing Clarity podcast, where we tackle your questions on hunger, cravings, appetite, and artificial sweeteners.

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Just wrapped a bulk and scared to lose muscle? Over 50 and unsure if gains are still possible? Walking 20,000 steps a day with no results?

In this Q&A, I team up with physique coach Brandon DaCruz, host of the Chasing Clarity podcast, to tackle five hot topics around fat loss, muscle building, and diet fatigue. We break down smart post-bulk strategies, how much walking is too much, and realistic expectations for muscle gain over 50, plus how to recover when dieting burns you out.

Don’t miss part two of this episode on the Chasing Clarity podcast, where we explore how hunger, cravings, and sweeteners impact your results.

Main Takeaways:

• A smarter way to cut after a bulk

• When walking too much backfires

• Muscle gain over 50 is slow—but possible

• Don’t underestimate diet fatigue

• Lifestyle stress and recovery matter more than you think

Timestamps:

2:00 – Post-bulk strategy for women 40+
8:34 – Are 20K steps a day too much?
22:15 – Building muscle after 50
28:49 – Best small-space home gym setup
36:56 – How to recover from diet fatigue
41:08 – Training and recovery during a fat loss phase
46:54 – The signs you're hitting a wall
53:50 – Training mindset and strength drops during a cut

Check out the other half of our Q&A on Brandon's Chasing Clarity podcast, where we tackle your questions on hunger, cravings, appetite, and artificial sweeteners.

What to Do After a Bulk, When Steps Stop Working, and Diet Fatigue Hits Hard

You just finished a bulk and want to cut fat without losing the muscle you worked so hard to build. Or maybe you're 50+, training hard, and wondering why your gains feel slower than ever. Maybe you're stuck walking 20,000 steps a day and not seeing any new fat loss progress. Or you're simply tired of tracking, dieting, and trying to care when your body just wants a break. If any of that rings true, this episode was made for you.

Brandon DaCruz and I got together to answer five tough questions that cut through common confusion about body recomposition, diet periodization, and realistic results. These aren’t surface-level tips. We went deep into physiology, recovery, psychological stress, and the mindset needed to play the long game.

Post-Bulk Fat Loss for Women Over 40

This one comes up a lot, especially among high-achieving women who went all in on building muscle but are now hesitant about cutting. The fear of losing progress is real, but Brandon laid out a strategy he calls “descending and dynamic,” which means starting your fat loss with a slightly more aggressive deficit (think 1% of body weight per week) and then tapering it down as fatigue sets in.

Key takeaways:

• Preserve muscle with proper resistance training. Train the way you built the muscle. Don't back off just because you’re cutting.

• Eat enough protein to preserve lean mass and support appetite regulation and insulin sensitivity, especially during hormonal transitions like perimenopause.

• Do bloodwork before cutting to check thyroid, estrogen, progesterone, and cortisol. You want your physiology in a good place before pushing into a deficit.

• Track more than just weight. Body measurements and strength data help you understand what’s really changing, even if the scale moves quickly or not at all.

Is There a Limit to Steps and Energy Expenditure?

Yes, but almost no one hits it.

This question came from someone already getting 20,000 steps a day, wondering if walking more would help with fat loss. It opens the door to a common misunderstanding: the idea that the body eventually "shuts down" and stops burning extra calories from additional activity.

The reality is more nuanced:

• There is a constrained energy expenditure model, where your body adapts and limits total calorie burn at very high levels of activity.

• But that threshold is far higher than most people will ever reach, typically in the range of 4,000-5,000 calories per day or more.

• People like the Amish who average 14,000-18,000 steps daily still maintain lean body compositions and high caloric intakes without metabolic collapse.

• The real problem isn’t too much walking. It’s how much else you’re stressing your system with (undereating, undersleeping, and overtraining all at once).

• Instead of piling on more steps, consider increasing the quality of your movement: walking on inclines, rucking, or using walking to recover rather than burn more.

Muscle Gain After 50

Here’s the honest truth: muscle gain is slower as we age, especially after major weight loss. But it is still very much possible if you train right, eat enough, and give it time.

Brandon offered rough monthly weight gain targets based on training experience:

• Novice: up to 2% of body weight per month

• Intermediate: 1-1.5%

• Advanced: 0.5-1%

Fat loss can happen much faster than muscle gain, which is why most people need a longer building phase, what Brandon frames as a 4:1 ratio of building to cutting over the course of the year. You can’t expect to cut for three months, bulk for three months, and repeat endlessly.

And the best marker of muscle gain? Consistent strength improvements (at least early on), steady scale trends, and measurements that reflect muscle growth in the right places. As always, patience is the name of the game.

Small Home Gym Setup

If you're lifting at home and want to build an effective space in a tight footprint, go for sustainability and adaptability. My take: start with a squat rack and free weights. Even if your room is small, most people can fit a rack and barbell with a little creativity.

Brandon’s take: go hybrid. One great option is a multi-use rack with cable attachments (he recommends the Prime Prodigy) paired with adjustable dumbbells and a solid bench. That lets you do almost every compound and isolation movement without needing ten machines.

For a budget option, I still love the Fitness Reality rack with a cable add-on, and microplates are a must if you want to make small progressions.

Handling Diet Fatigue

Fatigue isn’t just hunger. It’s psychological, physical, and lifestyle-related. We talked about clear signals to look out for:

• Rising hunger and cravings

• Mood swings and irritability

• Decline in training performance

• Poor sleep and low motivation

Brandon’s “pull to push” approach includes:

• Deficit deloads: 4–7 day breaks from the diet by increasing calories to (or above) maintenance, with mostly whole, filling foods.

• Deload weeks: temporary reduction in training intensity or volume to promote recovery.

• Lifestyle support: meditation, self-care, outdoor walks, and even programming relaxation into your plan.

My go-to strategy is aligning food and training with real life. Use weekends for planned refeeds. Pause dieting when you're traveling. And be intentional with your training split so it supports your recovery, not just your progress. You might even train better with fewer but higher-quality sessions during fat loss.

The big picture here is this: you don’t need to grind through every phase. Fat loss, maintenance, and muscle gain all serve a purpose. Structure your year and your habits around that cycle, and you’ll avoid burnout, keep your results, and feel better doing it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Maybe your body isn't transforming the way you expect it. Maybe you just finished a bulk and you're terrified of losing all that hard-earned muscle. Maybe you're over 40 and wondering if building muscle is even possible anymore. Or maybe you're so burned out from dieting that the thought of another cut makes you want to give up. Today, I'm teaming up with Brandon DeCruz to answer five body composition questions that keep you up at night, the ones that determine whether you'll actually achieve the physique you want or stay stuck for years.

Philip Pape: 0:39

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm very excited, guys. I'm bringing you something fun here a collaboration with none other than Brandon DeCruz, accredited nutritionist, world-class online physique coach and co-host of the Chasing Clarity podcast. Now Brandon is joining me for the third time here on Wits and Weights to help me answer your most pressing questions about body composition, building muscle training and more, based, as always, on the evidence and our firsthand in-the-trenches experience coaching many, many clients where I joined Brandon to tackle even more questions related to managing hunger during fat loss, beating cravings and other topics related to that.

Philip Pape: 1:29

Head over to the Chasing Clarity podcast. Find it in your podcast app or click the link in the show notes. Give it a follow. You're gonna find that episode in your feed right now. We dropped them on the same day. Again, the link is in the show notes. Go look for Chasing Clarity podcast. And Brandon my man, thank you again for reaching out to make this happen and for coming on the show again.

Brandon DaCruz: 1:48

Absolutely, my friend. It's a pleasure and I'm really happy with how our last episode just went, since we're recording back to back, and I'm really looking forward to digging into this and really giving a lot of evidence base and also practically applicable information for your audience.

Philip Pape: 2:00

As you always do, and the two episodes have quite different topics. So, guys, definitely, when you're done with this, next in your feed, go right over to Chasing Clarity and we're going to get right into it with our first question today. This is a good one. What is the best post-bulk strategy to preserve muscle and lose fat for women over 40, especially during perimenopause?

Brandon DaCruz: 2:18

All right. So this is a situation I deal with quite often because I work with a lot of women over 40 that are going through hormonal transitions like perimenopause. Now there are a few key strategies I use when transitioning a client from a building phase into a fat loss phase, especially if the goal is to preserve muscle, drop body fat and do it in a way that supports their long-term health and sustainability. So the first thing I want to look at is the rate of loss, because that is something that we're going to have to determine right off the bat, and the first. How I really approach this is I use what I call a descending and dynamic rate of loss. So when I kick off a fat loss phase, I actually start with a slightly quicker rate of loss up front and then gradually I slow it down as we move throughout the phase. So instead of tiptoeing into a deficit which is something that some people make the mistake of doing and they're not really getting progress off of that what I'll do is I'll create a more assertive calorie deficit at the start, which allows us to leverage the motivation they have, the fact that they have very little, if any, diet fatigue and they've been in a surplus for an extended period of time, so there's more calories to pull from. And then also, I want to utilize the fact that body fat is at its highest, meaning that there's more stored energy that we can pull from and there's less risk of muscle loss. And within that, what I found is, when I take a, you know, a quicker rate of loss in the beginning, let's us get some wins, and it's a psychological win for that person because those early body composition changes create momentum and that momentum facilitates better adherence, so we're getting better outcomes in the long term. Then, as we diet and fatigue you know, diet fatigue especially accumulates, I'll taper the deficit down to a more moderate approach. So usually what I'm doing and this is I'm going to give you a broad-based perspective, but oftentimes it'll look like something like I might start at 1% body weight loss per week and then I'm going to taper to 0.5. And then when I get especially women very lean, it's going to be like 0.25 per week towards the end of the phase.

Brandon DaCruz: 4:01

Now the second key component is going to be resistance training. We cannot, you know, overlook that. You know, it's so important that if your goal is to preserve muscle, that you train in a way that sends a signal to maintain it. So I always tell clients that the training that built the muscle is a training that will maintain it. And this becomes even more critical for women over 40, who may be dealing with hormonal changes that make muscle retention more challenging. So we want to make sure we're sending the right signal to your body that that muscle is needed.

Brandon DaCruz: 4:25

The next thing I'm going to do is I want someone to follow a high protein diet and this is really going to help with enhancing your ability to maintain muscle. It's going to help with appetite regulation and it improves insulin sensitivity, which is really important. If we're looking specifically at women over 40 in that perimenopause transition whether that be peri or even into the menopause transition a lot of times the downregulation of hormones, especially the decline in estradiol, is going to contribute to impacting their body composition, their appetite regulation and their metabolic health, especially from an insulin sensitivity perspective. This is a little bit different than most people would recommend, but one thing I found in practice to be very advantageous is I always suggest having your labs done prior to jumping into a deficit, because we want to look at how things are looking internally, and personally I work with a lot of women from the ages of, say, 35 to 55, and many of them are high achievers, and that's great.

Brandon DaCruz: 5:13

I love that mentality, I love that type A personality.

Brandon DaCruz: 5:16

But what does that come with?

Brandon DaCruz: 5:17

For every gimme, there's a gotcha.

Brandon DaCruz: 5:18

So many of these women are burning the candle at both ends between their professional and then their personal lives, and they're often putting their health last.

Brandon DaCruz: 5:25

So what I like to do is have clients run blood work to assess sex hormones, thyroid function and stress markers to make sure that things are in the right place. And I really want to make sure that estrogen and progesterone aren't bottomed out yet at this phase in life, that their thyroid function is sufficient to support fat loss. And I also want to make sure that cortisol isn't chronically elevated from, whether that be stress under recovery or lifestyle factors, Because if you start a fat loss phase with dysregulated hormones and metabolic dysfunction, it's going to make the process harder and a lot of women in this age group are already having trouble with that. So if you have put in the time, effort and energy to do a muscle gain phase which I commend you for because I love seeing women become the strongest version of themselves you really want to put yourself in the position to succeed, making sure that everything is in check before you go into a fat loss phase and then take approach that's going to be fit to your physiology and also to your psychology.

Philip Pape: 6:12

Yeah, I love everything you said, especially how we're coming from a strategy here, from someone who should be congratulated for doing something that very few people, let alone women, but men and women will, I'll say, have the courage to even attempt and to go after really building, going into an improvement phase, adding weight, knowing that some fat might come along for the ride to optimize their ability to build muscle, which is one of the most critical things at this time of life, because of what you talked about, the hormones. I also like the phrases you have for everything descending and dynamic. I'm going to steal some of this because I do love the idea of going all out, pretty aggressive at first. We also have to understand, as part of that I wanted to piggyback off of that the idea of lean mass versus muscle, versus body fat, because there's fears that go both directions. The fear going up, of course, is I'm going to get too fat, I'm going to gain too much fat. The fear going down is I'm going to lose all my muscle, I'm going to get deflated, and it's helpful if you're tracking and measuring circumference I don't want to say body fat directly, but you can infer body fat from trends reasonably accurately so that you understand. Okay, there's sometimes that whoosh effect early on in a fat loss phase, which doesn't mean you've lost all your muscle within two weeks. I think that helps from the fear in this question, which is how do I preserve muscle?

Philip Pape: 7:22

Obviously, you hit on training being the biggest signal, protein being extremely important.

Philip Pape: 7:26

But even understanding that you are not losing muscle, even if the data shows a big drop in weight or quote unquote lean mass, because a lot of that's going to be fluid, so that you don't react, you don't overreact and say, okay, I need to get back out of this, you know, and stop trying this. The diet itself, too I always like to think of how are you eating during your bulk? Were you maintaining the foundation of whole foods or are you adding a lot of processed foods? Again, no judgment. Some people do that if they need to get the calories, but it can be more difficult when your diet has biased or skewed away from that when you go back into fat loss phase, and it takes a different mentality to reset to that point versus somebody just maybe starting fat loss for the first time not having gone through the muscle building phase. So I think we hit on the big things with again training, protein, the rate of loss, the lean mass and then the diet itself. Anything else you want to add?

Brandon DaCruz: 8:17

No, I think we really recapped that. Well, my friend.

Philip Pape: 8:20

Cool. All right, let's go to the next one. Good luck on that fat loss phase. We're here for you. So the next one is about oh, this is a good one. This is good for Brandon, because Brandon is the energy flux guy. All right, and I guess I'm answering it first, but you're going to have a lot to add to this.

Philip Pape: 8:34

The question is is there a point where increasing daily steps no longer boost energy expenditure meaningfully? I get this a lot. You probably do as well. You probably get it a lot Because it's interesting. You'll have somebody say look, I get 20,000 steps a day, should I go to 30? I'll get interesting questions like that and I was wondering where I should attack this.

Philip Pape: 8:57

One prong is talking about the constrained energy model, because I love the subtleties behind that. I know you've talked about on your show a lot and it's highly misunderstood. So we'll see if I don't misrepresent it. But for most people, you know, an increase in movement is going to be somewhat correlated with an increase in expenditure up to a point, and then there's some sort of diminishing returns and it's all tied into how the body compensates. But it's also very individual, right? It depends on what kind of responder you are to NEAT, whether, when you increase your step count, you are compensating elsewhere, and so on. So I think, number one I always think of, are you measuring and tracking the result of these changes pretty precisely? For me, for my clients, that is, we're tracking food, we're tracking weight, so we have a good estimation of your expenditure.

Philip Pape: 9:43

Let's change one variable. You talked about this earlier, I think it was on your show, or this one, I don't know. Yes, sir, changing one variable at a time. Right, like an engineer, like a scientist, go ahead and add that 5,000 steps a day and see what it does to your biofeedback, to your expenditure, to everything else. There is a sweet spot, though. Is also part of my answer hearing that most people are going to benefit somewhere in that eight to 12,000 range, and maybe a little more. But once you get into the twenties, I suspect that now you're getting into a slightly more excessive, extreme regimes of walking for a lot of people, but not necessarily everybody. And is it stressing you out? Is it affecting you know, your cortisol, your feeling of burnout? Are you forcing yourself to do it because you feel like you have to burn more calories? And there's other levers you could take advantage of. So I'm going to start there, brandon, because energy flux is part of this and I want to hear your take on it.

Brandon DaCruz: 10:30

All right. So I'm going to disentangle this from energy flux, because the high energy flux approach that I've taken is mostly done through dialing in and increasing energy expenditure through steps, but I'm also doing it with a concomitant increase in food. So if you ever hear me speak about this concept, it's always eat more, move more. It's never the reverse, nor is it are we chasing movement to get down calories. It's more so that I'm trying to get this intrinsic link between energy expenditure and energy intake and getting this coupling effect where I can get someone into a higher maintenance calorie intake. And there's many things more nuanced approaches that I utilize and very context specific that often I don't get to get into with podcasts, just because you know I'm not able to do a lot of like case study reviews, but when it comes down to it, when I saw this question come through, I said this is definitely targeted towards me because, especially of a podcast, I've gotten a lot of questions about that. I did with Lyle McDonald and a few months back we really broke down some of the misinterpretations of the constrained energy expenditure model and that was a three-hour podcast, so I won't be able to re-encompass it here, but I will give you my thoughts, both based on the literature because I read 22 papers for that podcast and then, in conjunction with having worked with 1,100 plus people over the years, utilize step count as a way to increase energy expenditure, increase maintenance, calories, be able to get people on who what I consider and what I refer to as a state of abundance in addition. So, first off, that I do want to make it clear because sometimes people get this misconstrued I do believe that energy, energy compensation, exists. I do believe in the constrained energy expenditure model, but I think that the point where additional activity stops contributing to meaningful energy expenditure increases is actually a lot higher than most people think. And I think that a lot of people have taken that model where you do a comparative analysis and you look at the constraint model where it's a, you know, sloping off and it's also like an asymptote, and then you look at the additive model where it just literally goes up and many people say, oh well, the constraint model means that you know if I do extra cardio, I'm never going to burn, you know, the calories that I thought I could. Well, there's many inaccuracies within that because of the fact that a lot of these activity trackers are very off in terms of their accuracy in estimating energy expenditure. So there was a meta-analysis on this that found that risk-worn and commercially available activity trackers are between 28 to 93% off, I believe.

Brandon DaCruz: 12:41

Now, when it comes to step counts, now this is very interesting because we have limited data from people that have consistently hit high step counts. So the one study that I can think of that actually looked at this was a study I often speak about, which is the Amish study, and this is essentially where researchers tracked physical activity in traditional Amish community, and so what they found was that the Amish men in this culture consistently averaged 18.4 steps per day, and then the women averaged over 14,000 steps per day. But then, when we look at their body composition, the men were walking around with 9.4% body fat, with no dietary intervention. They ate plenty of food, I think their calories were around 3,600 calories and the women had 25% body fat. However, the average woman in that culture, specifically in that Amish community that they looked at, had six to seven children. So the data is confounded by the fact that a lot of times when they're doing these measurements, some of these women are pregnant, so obviously they have higher adiposity levels, which is essential for carrying a baby to term. Now, even with very high step counts between 14,000 and 18,000, we still see clear metabolic and body composition benefits, so it is safe to say that they are burning more calories.

Brandon DaCruz: 13:49

But to really answer this question, I think we need to discuss a concept that's often overlooked, which is referred to as maximum metabolic scope or maximum sustainable metabolic scope, and what that tells us is how, far above your resting energy needs, your resting metabolic rate, can your body maintain energy output on a consistent basis? And the best data we have from that is actually an endurance training study. It's an overview like an umbrella review by I believe it's by Thurber and colleagues, and they looked at athletes ranging from extreme endurance athletes like triathlons to ultra marathons, to even like the race across the USA, which is, I believe, a 20-week essentially contest or competition, where you run a marathon a day, six days a week for 20 weeks. So we're talking about very extreme expenditure levels. Now, when we actually look in short bursts, elite athletes, especially endurance athletes, can burn between nine to 10 times their BMR in events like Iron Man's or even ultra marathons.

Brandon DaCruz: 14:42

But when it comes to your actual sustained energy expenditure like Ironmans or even ultra marathons. But when it comes to your actual sustained energy expenditure, the maximum sustainable metabolic scope is found to be 2.5 to three times basal metabolic rate. So I'll give you guys an example to really break that down practically. I have a BMR that's around 2000 calories. So that means my maximum sustainable energy expenditure would be 5000 calories per day. Now if you're someone out there that you're lighter than I am, I'm over 200 pound male. I'm over six foot tall, so I'm a little bit bigger than the average individual. But say that you're the average woman walking around, your BMR is usually going to be closer, say, the 1600 calories. So that means your maximum daily output is still 4,000 calories per day.

Brandon DaCruz: 15:16

But to actually reach that amount of energy expenditure you need to be moving essentially all day. You need to train, walk and be physically active, probably four to six hours a day. I actually did some calculations for my podcast with Lyle and it was really like higher level output in addition to training for five to six hours a day to get to these maximum sustainable outputs. Now here's the thing, that's, if you did it in a single day, you would have to do this consistently to actually see a constraint. And just realistically. I always think about this in a practical perspective. I work with people in the real world. They're busy. A lot of people are actually underactive, more than they're overactive, and so the average person, the general population and most of our clients. They aren't anywhere near the ceiling. So, yes, I do believe that there is a point of diminishing returns, but no, the vast majority of people won't hit it and I don't believe that they have to worry about it.

Philip Pape: 16:01

Yeah, have to worry about it. Yeah, you hit it on the head right there. I was just thinking like let's stop overthinking it. You know, I'm sure you have the client that loves to send you multiple questions a day and overthink all this stuff, which is great. I love curiosity. But the question was, you know, implying, should I keep going up because it's going to help my energy expenditure? And I like how you answered that.

Philip Pape: 16:18

Um, what's interesting is we can think more creatively when it comes to our movement and our time efficiency. My clients are all super busy, I'm busy, you're busy, and I always think, okay, what are you trying to do when you ask this question? If you're trying to boost your energy expenditure, can we just make your walking a little bit harder, right? Can we use inclines and rucking Little things like that is the way I like to go to it, brandon, right? That way we're not just adding, adding, adding, because, as you know, once you've used up the time in the day, then you start hitting your stress, then you start affecting your sleep, then you start making eating harder and all of that. So, again, practical, real world. I think we covered it.

Brandon DaCruz: 16:51

Absolutely no. I will admit that I am a data nerd myself. I'm just saying, practically I'm the person that probably spoken about step counts and energy flux the most and I have very infrequently seen someone that I truly believe has hit a cap and when it has, it's been confounded. So I'll give you an example. We actually there's research, by Willis, I believe, that looks at the influence of energy balance status on energy expenditure from activity and it's within this constrained energy expenditure model and they find it was a best fit model essentially. So this is statistical modeling, but what they did was they looked at interventions where people are in a large deficit versus maintenance, versus a surplus, and wanted to see what the best fit, what they mean by that. What model best fits this? Is it the constraint model or the additive model? Well, in my model for energy flux, I'm keeping people at maintenance or in a slight surplus, but I'm allowing activity to increase that maintenance, calorie intake and also help with nutrient partitioning and insulin sensitivity and nutrient delivery. Now what's interesting about that? And now I was utilizing energy flux. I think I had spoken on your podcast about it even before this Willis paper came out, because it's fairly new. Now the interesting thing about that is that when they did a best fit model analysis they found that the constraint model only was the best fit, meaning it was most applicable when someone was in a deficit in an active period of weight loss. Now that could be for multiple components, but we also know that metabolic adaptation down-regulates a lot of the same components. That would also decrease energy expenditure and could be confounded or conflated for the constrained energy expenditure model.

Brandon DaCruz: 18:15

It's very hard to disentangle metabolic adaptation, low energy availability and the constrained energy expenditure model Because if we think about it a lot of times, neat down-regulations can be in the realm between 400 to 500 plus calories per day. But then if someone's doing a lot of activity but then they're sitting a lot, that could be a downregulation in NEAT. But then it's almost conflated because they're doing 24-hour measurements of energy expenditure through doubly labeled water. They can't really disentangle. Was that from NEAT or were they not burning as many calories as we assume they would, based off the cardio or the step count that they were doing? So there's many things that we can disentangle there, but when you look at maintenance or in a surplus, the additive model meaning the more steps you do or the more activity was specifically activity. So I don't want to mischaracterize the research. It wasn't looking at step counts, but the more activity you did, the more calories you burn, and so we have to. There's many influences within that. There's many different variables where for most people, I don't think they have to worry about it.

Brandon DaCruz: 19:08

There have been some very specific cases and I can be a case study or an example. I have had many women that were conscious prep athletes. They were competitors that have come to me on enormously high step counts 25 to 30,000 steps per day. They're on very low energy intake and it's almost like it's something that people within the functional realm refer to as weight loss resistance, which I have a little bit of an issue with, just because the fragility narrative that comes with that and it's a misunderstanding of physiology. It's not that they don't respond to a deficit, it's that their energy expenditure is so low in so many other components that they're not eliciting a rate of loss that would be in alignment with what most people would expect.

Brandon DaCruz: 19:43

Now I have a specific case that it was an IFBB figure pro which was on under 1200 calories per day doing two plus hours of cardio per day. Her step count was approximately like 20,000 steps per day. Most of that was actually being done through cardio, though, because she was doing higher intensity cardio for 120 minutes a day, so it wasn't picking up. It wasn't like she was doing a lot of daily activity, it was more so. She was getting like 14,000 steps per day just through cardio, like intentional cardio, and then about 6,000 throughout the course of the day. She was very sedentary in between these bouts early in the morning, fasted cardio an hour, before bed an hour, and then throughout the course of the day she was very she. She wasn't too active.

Brandon DaCruz: 20:20

However, when I looked through, I mean I put a comprehensive lab analysis every I mean her thyroid, her sex hormones, everything was downregulated. She had hypothalamic amenorrhea, which is essentially the cessation of menstrual cycle for three or more months due to low energy availability. So all these different physiological components were downregulated to the point that her body wasn't burning a lot of energy. So it was just what she had from resting metabolic rate and she was a very small female what she had from energy expenditure. But all these different components, including her need, her non-exercise activity, thermogenesis, were downregulated.

Brandon DaCruz: 20:47

So a lot of times that may be misconstrued for the energy constraint model, and it could be. It could definitely be a constraint, but I think that there are many other inputs for a metabolic adaptation perspective, specifically from an adaptive thermogenesis perspective, which is where we see a decrease in metabolic rate specifically, or energy expenditure specifically, that exceeds what we would expect from weight loss alone, and then we also have to tie in low energy availability and relative energy deficiency. So, just for anyone out there, I don't think most people have to worry about this, and if you are someone that you're just trying to become a healthier version of yourself and improve your body composition, you're at 10,000 steps per day. Don't worry about going to 12,000 and that you're not going to get a benefit from it.

Philip Pape: 21:23

Exactly, and how many of those people in these studies are lifting weights too? I always, I always, think that right. The last thing I want to add to this we'll go to the next question is I just recently did an episode about the walking snacks research from like 2022 that compared squatting.

Brandon DaCruz: 21:36

You're talking about exercise snacks.

Philip Pape: 21:38

Yeah, but specifically they looked at squatting versus walking, versus sitting for seven and a half hours, and the vast difference in muscle protein synthesis and vascular blood flow and insulin sensitivity between those groups, walking being the superior group of them all. So even when you talk about confounding variables and what happens during fat loss, how you start to compensate across the board, it's important to tie those together and not overthink it. That's the goal, not overthink it. So, all right, let's go to question three, which you're going to answer first here, and that is what is a realistic rate of muscle gain for someone over 50 who's lost significant weight and is now training hard?

Brandon DaCruz: 22:15

All right. So I think the first thing that we need to consider and understand is that the rate of muscle gain isn't linear and it depends heavily on your training age. So, both based on like the research and then also my experience coaching clients of all different ages and training levels, I found that the best way to go about this in terms of how to conceptualize this, is to scale your rate of gain based on your level of advancement. So if you are now, this question didn't really disentangle, you know it could be assumed that they were training previously or they just started training. So if you are a novice, I would aim for a monthly rate of gain of around 2% of your body weight per week. The less trained you are, the more essentially, the larger of a ceiling you have and the quicker you could push for gains. If you're an intermediate, I would aim for a rate of gain of 1% to 1.5% per month, and then, if you're advanced, it can be as low as 0.5% to 1% per month. So for someone who's over 50, who's lost a lot of weight and is now training hard, the rate of gain that they will have will depend on whether they're more of a novice or they've trained consistently for years. And then I get a lot of clients that I want to cover this because of the context that this listener sent to us about the fact that they just lost weight. And I get a lot of clients who are very fatless, focused initially, and now they want to focus on building muscle.

Brandon DaCruz: 23:24

And if this is where you are now, I think it's important to realize that fat loss and muscle gain do not operate on the same time course. So the rate of fat loss far exceeds the rate of muscle gain. So in a deficit, most people can lose and safely lose, say, 0.5 to 1% of body weight per week, especially early on. But in a surplus, I would only really recommend most people if they're really trying to maximize we're talking about maximizing muscle gain in terms of lean muscle, cruel and fat and making sure that there's not excess of that mass accumulation I would recommend most people to target 0.25% per week, and so that's going to even taper down as someone becomes more experienced. So I think one of the biggest mistakes people get when they've been in this cutting mindset is they're used to seeing quick progress, especially things they're seeing like almost daily improvements, and they want to spend equal amount of time cutting and building, and that just cannot be the case. The reality is that muscle takes much longer to build than that takes to lose, and that means that your yearly strategy needs to reflect that. So with clients myself, I like to do a four to one ratio in terms of building time in time spent in a surplus or even at maintenance, as compared to time spent in a fat loss phase.

Brandon DaCruz: 24:31

So you know, if you're 50, or you know 50 or not, realize that muscle gain is going to be slow. But with the right strategy it's possible, especially if you're doing the things that support hypertrophy the most. So you want to make sure that you're eating in a modest surplus, you're prioritizing protein intake, you're progressively overloading in your training and that you're not overlooking the lifestyle variables, especially in your 50s. You want to make sure that you're managing recovery, you're getting an adequate sleep, especially in your fifties. You want to make sure that you're managing recovery, you're getting inadequate sleep and you're managing your stress, because these are all things that could have downstream effects on not only hormones, your biofeedback, your recovery, but also your ability to accrete or to gain muscle mass and another. Just food for thought, or just like a little suggestion out there is be patient.

Brandon DaCruz: 25:10

You know, a lot of times I've had a lot of clients that come to me.

Brandon DaCruz: 25:12

I have a lot of clients that are between you know, I generally work with people between 35 and 55, but right now I have, you know, at least a handful of individuals that are between 60 and 70.

Brandon DaCruz: 25:21

And I find this to be very interesting. But they're very impatient and sometimes it's I'm not saying that they're that they're in their life, but they have waited so long to make these changes that they're so excited to do so. But they want to see fast progress. They want to see it right out the gate. And what you have to realize is you have to be patient. You can't mini bulk your way to meaningful gains and you have to realize that this is a process just like anything else, and give yourself grace and know that this is going to be a process, that it's an investment. I look at it almost like I would an investment fund. Every day that I train or I have a client train, it's a penny into the progress bank and over time you realize, hey, I have a lump sum of money or I've been able to save something that's really going to be able to set me up from a foundation perspective later on in life. But it doesn't happen overnight, so don't rush the process.

Philip Pape: 26:06

Yeah, patience seems to be underlying everything, everything we talk about, including fat loss, and I'm going to cross that off my list because you mentioned it. But what I like that you did in addition to talking to the rate, because people do get kind of hung up on how fast should I be able to gain muscle, and therefore it implies maybe there's a lack of patience for that. You talked about the time scale in two respects one being the ratio, which is a nice way to put it, because then you put in perspective well, how much should I be cutting on a regular basis it's not what most people think where it's a switch that you're always going into dieting mode, and then also the implying how long it should take then to gain the muscle, which is a lot longer than people think. Right, it's at least in my experience working with clients like a good six or nine months or more sometimes for a thing, and people are like, well, can I just do it for two months and then go back? And I think there's disadvantages to that because you're not going to see the result. You're also going to not give yourself that anabolic advantage let's call it of sustaining that surplus for a while and you see some magic happen when you hit months, three, four, five, with everything, including your metabolism, cranking up.

Philip Pape: 27:06

For a lot of people which is another point I wanted to mention in that, if you're not tracking this somewhat precisely per the numbers that Brandon's mentioned which are not that big, they're like kind of almost in the noise if you don't have a good way to track it or a good coach to work with, you might fall behind on the intake needs. It happens all the time. Right when you plateau going up because you're not sort of staying ahead of that with your intake, I'll get clients who say why am I feeling hungry? I'm like that's probably your body telling you you are under-resourced right now and that metabolism is cranking up. Maybe, maybe not right, could be cravings, could be other things, and so that comes to mind.

Philip Pape: 27:43

And then hitting on the actual numbers, how do you even measure all this? This goes back to something we talked about on your podcast with body fat and lean mass. I think it could be very helpful to have your measurements, have your strength numbers. Understand there's also a difference between strength and hypertrophy, depending on how experienced you are.

Philip Pape: 27:57

If you're a novice, you're going to get a lot of that neuromuscular adaptation. Your numbers are going to go shooting up, but you're not going to see anything visible for a while. You're just not, and that's okay. So you're going to have to be patient with it. If you're more advanced, you kind of know what to look for. So I think that kind of puts it all together and then be patient but also be ready to say when you've hit the goal you want to hit, because it's kind of an art, not all, not just the science. Right, you might say it's six months, and then you know you get to six months and everything's feeling great and the numbers are moving and you really don't notice too much extra body fat. There's nothing preventing you from continuing. You know you could, you could, you could train and gain for a long time if it's right for you. So, all right, I guess we beat that one to death. Right, that's a good one.

Brandon DaCruz: 28:37

Hell yeah.

Philip Pape: 28:37

All right. So question number four is about home gym equipment. I love this one. What's the best use of space for a small home gym, free weights or machine like the total gym? Am I taking this one first?

Brandon DaCruz: 28:49

Yes, you are. You're going to be definitely going to be the expert, because I have only trained in a home gym during one period of my life.

Philip Pape: 28:55

You know what A home gym is. What got me where I am right now? Because back during the pandemic, everything shut down. I didn't have anything and I had to hustle on Craigslist and Facebook to get a rack and a bar and around that time I was reading the muscle and strength pyramids and starting strength and all of that. So, look, it's all going to depend on what your goal is, how you want to train, how much you're willing to invest in the space and all that. However, I think people make excuses on this a little bit, in that if you give me your footprint, if you send me your blueprint of your room, I could probably fit a power rack in there. Almost always, even a tiny room, I mean there's exceptions. You also have to consider the ceiling clearance right. If you're in a basement, you're not going to be able to necessarily do overhead presses with a seven foot high basement. So I think the best use of space to me is the one that's going to be give you sustainability for growth. We talk about progressive overload. If you invest a ton in equipment that is going to seal, you know, hit a ceiling, within six months or a year you're going. You might regret that decision. So I would think carefully about what's going to allow you to have longevity.

Philip Pape: 29:55

For me, a home gym is one of the biggest hacks for people who are busy. It's not for everybody. Not everybody can afford it or have the space. Some people like to go to commercial gyms for a lot of reasons the plethora of crazy equipment. They have right, lots and lots of equipment, the camaraderie, the community, the music, whatever.

Philip Pape: 30:13

But think of the pros and cons here, of you save on your commute, you have a lot of convenience. You can do some clever things like two days, you know, very tiny sessions, exercise, snacks, all that fun stuff that I'm doing, and you could do rehab, you could do therapy. It gives you a lot more options when you're at home. So, long story short, what's the best use of small space? I would see if you could fit a rack or free weights as the foundation. That is my opinion. But I have clients who have a tonal. I have clients who have Bowflex and it can work, but it tends to you know, it tends to like top out at some point and it's kind of weird to be able to do all the potential training you want to do. So I'm going to start there, brandon, and curious on your thoughts.

Brandon DaCruz: 30:52

Perfect. Yeah, I definitely agree with the power rack and then some additional equipment pieces, but I think that it's very important to really get down to the brass tacks and really realize that this is going to depend on your goals, your experience level, your budget and then how much you prioritize space efficiency versus exercise variety and I say the latter because I work with a lot of intermediate to advanced trainees that are trying to get to that next level, and so a lot of times we are trying to bias certain regions of a muscle group and I'm not saying they're beyond compound basic lifts but we need a little bit more variety, we need a little bit more equipment accessibility. So you hit on things that I would say for the general person a hundred percent and I'll take this more maybe from the clientele that I work with and maybe some of the home gyms that I've built out. What I found to work best for clients that train at home, especially when I'm walking them through the process of, hey, we're going to build out a gym. This is a lot of people that come to work with me. They are very they're high achievers or high performers and whether they're a high and, you know, bought into the process than your average gym goer.

Brandon DaCruz: 31:58

To be honest with you, and so often what I do is I recommend a hybrid approach, and what I mean by that is I want to combine free weights and then a multi hybrid rack or like cable season. And the one I like most and I recommend clients to get a lot is one of the prime prodigy racks. They have a full series of them and so, like one of the constructions that actually looked into some of my client programs to see, like some of the setups that I've given them, one of the ones that has worked really well that is really good for a small space Like I have. Some people with a one car garage or one room of their basement is to combine adjustable dumbbells, which you can fit into tight spaces, which is also going to replace multiple pairs, and then a prime prodigy rack which, if you guys aren't familiar with that, it has a squat rack in it. It has a dual high and low cable pulley system in a single unit and also has a pull-up bar, and so if you get a barbell and then you get an adjustable bench, you literally have everything that you need and you can do almost every both free weight and cable-based exercise you could think of.

Brandon DaCruz: 32:58

You could do flies, you could do, you know, lengthen partially all these different things cable pull-downs, all these different exercises, both for the upper and lower body, and it's not small by any means, but it has a good footprint for as much of its delivering. So you can have a squat rack, you can do your compound basic, you know multi-joint movements but then you can also do other movements that you wouldn't be able to do if you only had free weights and you also wouldn't have the same resistance profile. So one thing that I really like to do this for is a lot of like cable lateral work and I'll do it in, you know, really be able to get into a lengthened position, because if you are only using something like a dumbbell, you're only going to have short overload at the top of the movement. So these are just a little more advanced and maybe a little bit more intricate strategies, but I think either way that you would go.

Brandon DaCruz: 33:40

If you are someone that's willing to invest into your health, your fitness, your body composition and build a gym in your home, I commend you. So any way that you could start off work. But if you're trying to get into a little bit more of the nuances of things. I think that would be the direction that I would suggest or, you know, head you in.

Philip Pape: 33:58

This is why I think you're such a great communicator, right, because you laid out the actual product, the products and the specific things. It's funny you mentioned the Prime Prodigy because there's a really cheap rack on Amazon by Fitness Reality. It's been around for maybe eight years. I've told tons of people about it just because it's so inexpensive for the budget. It's like $400 and it has a an optional lat pull down, full up and down cable attachment and the bar built in. But there was a funny Amazon or a funny YouTube video about it, cause it was my first rack that I ever had and it said watch how this cheap rack handles 700 pounds. And I thought it was going to implode. They basically loaded a racks up high with a bar weighted with 700 pounds and the guy just dumped it onto the spotter arms and in slow motion. You're like, oh no, this thing's going to collapse. And it just bounced gently up and they're like this is a good rack. You know what I'm like. Okay, I feel I feel good recommending that to people.

Brandon DaCruz: 34:48

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 34:48

It's steel, right, it's. It's two by two, it's not three by three, but it's steel. So I love that idea. And the adjustable bent dumbbells too. You know, I know there's the power, the power blocks and Bowflex might still make theirs. Occasionally, walmart might even have something that comes through. It doesn't matter, I mean. So what I wanted to add to that was microplates. Right, having microplates for both the barbell and the dumbbells is helpful, because people say how do I, how do I go up by five pounds on my dumbbell from 15 to 20? I can't do it. Microplates are really helpful.

Philip Pape: 35:16

And then, when you are trying to be efficient with space, you alluded to multi-use A leg developer at the end of an adjustable bench. You can find that is really helpful for leg curls and extensions. It's all plate loaded. All my stuff is plate loaded, just because that is how they sell it. And then a pec deck, reverse fly. So anything that could do three or two or three things is a great idea. So awesome, I love it. Good stuff, man, perfect. Want to go to the next one, absolutely Okay.

Jerry: 35:42

Hey, just wanted to give a shout out to Phillip. I personally worked with Phillip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist. Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one. He's really taken the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth.

Jerry: 36:05

If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you, philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, philip. Really encourage you to see, if he may be able to help you out.

Philip Pape: 36:56

So thanks again, philip. Actually this is the last question. So diet fatigue you get to answer this one first. What nutritional training or lifestyle changes do you make when someone's dealing with diet fatigue?

Brandon DaCruz: 37:10

All right. So I have taken a lot of clients through fat loss phases. So I've experienced and encountered a lot of diet fatigue and really, if you are someone that is unfamiliar with the concept, it's just the fatigue, both mental and physical, that can accumulate across the course of a fat loss phase. And really, when I encounter this or I see a client that is dealing with this and it's starting to come across in their check-ins and their biofeedback, even in their photos, sometimes I'm a big fan of pulling back to be able to push forward, and that's actually an expression that I use with my clients. I have a push and pull method. So there are times that I'm pushing them towards fat loss, where we're driving greater body composition change, and then there's times that I'm pulling back and dissipating fatigue. And I see this very specifically because the clients that I work with are high performers and they're also those types of individuals that they were buried themselves if I wasn't there, and so it's not always about pushing harder. You know, I like to take what I call a systems-based approach that supports both someone's physiology and their psychology and that's going to utilize all three of these interventions. So this was a great question that they're looking at nutrition. You know training and lifestyle. So on the nutrition side, I will usually start with refeeds and high days. But if a client is deep into a dieting phase and their biofeedback is showing signs such as heightened hunger, low mood, elevated stress, even some water retention like you're getting some edema from just very high stress levels and potentially from cortisol I'll often implement what I refer to as a deficit deload and that's essentially a four to seven day diet break where I raise calories back to maintenance or even slightly above, and I would rather overshoot it than undershoot it. I'm really trying to use this as a restorative break to lower their perceived exertion, both physically and mentally, their perception of restriction. So I'm trying to get them more into a mindset of flexible eating, flexible eating control or flexible eating attitudes, rather than rigid restriction. I'm trying to reduce stress and I want to reset them before the next fat loss phase block and so during a dusty deload, like I said, I'm going to bring calories back to maintenance or above and we're really focusing on high satiety whole food meals to support appetite and micronutrient needs. Because if your biggest piece of feedback that is indicating diet fatigue, besides the mental stress of it all is that you have very heightened hunger.

Brandon DaCruz: 39:16

A lot of times people kind of I don't want to say blow it, but they almost don't take advantage of the deficit deload or some people would term that a diet break. They start eating hyper-platable foods, they start having fun foods and things that are going to drive generally passive overconsumption. So sometimes they'll overshoot their calories but they actually didn't get a satiety benefit. And one of the biggest mistakes I see with clientele, or that I've seen just in other applications, is where someone takes the same amount of calories that they have and they increase them. So say they were dieting on 2000 calories and they were in a 500 calorie deficit, so we brought them to 2,500 calories. But they brought that 2000 calorie diet that was mostly made of whole, satiating, micronutrient dense foods. They bring 20, bring it up to 2,500 calories but they eliminate a lot of the satiating food sources that they had that were helping with satiety appetite regulation. They they, you know swap it with with fun food, which is great from a pleasure perspective, but now you're not actually getting the appetite regulating. You know effects. You're not getting the micronutrients that are going to help with you know hormonal status and mood and neurotransmitter secretion, and so that is something that I really try to be very consistent and very deliberate with the food sources I use. And I found that by inserting a deficit deload before clients hit a wall, they're able to come back refresh, refocus and ready to make better body composition progress, going forward without burning out.

Brandon DaCruz: 40:29

Then, from a training perspective, I'll usually pull, you know, auto-regulation strategies, because a lot of times people who love lifting they forget that in a deficit. You know, lifting and training is another stress, it's another stimulus, but it's not another stress. So if I see biofeedback is starting to suffer, this could be things like poor sleep, nagging, soreness, or like joint aches and pains, what I would refer to as the niggles. I'll auto-regulate intensity by raising RRR. So I'm going to take them, say, if they're training zero reps in reserve, we might go between two and four. I'm going to reduce their total training volume and then I program a deload week. Now the goal of the deload is not to push performance, it's dissipate the accumulated fatigue, both physically and mentally.

Brandon DaCruz: 41:08

Another component of deloading that I really like to do is to make their sessions more time efficient, because I want to give that client more time back in their day and then I specifically direct them. It's going to depend on the client and how well I know them or what things work best for them, but I encourage them to use recovery promoting strategies so that can be extra sleep, that could be a nap. For some that's yoga, A lot of times it's meditation, or with a lot of people it's just like take time off your feet, watch a movie, just relax. You don't always have to feel like you have to be hyperproductive and really what I'm trying to do is shift them from that sympathetic state into a parasympathetic state. Then, from a lifestyle perspective, I like to realize that this is a total accumulation. We have to look at stress. It's your total allostatic load, which means your stress accumulates into one stress bucket. We cannot separate these. You don't have training stress in one bucket, lifestyle stress in another and nutrition stress in the other. It is all going into one bucket that oftentimes is overflowing. So oftentimes I'm going to lean into recovery-based strategies.

Brandon DaCruz: 42:04

So one of the ones that I use most frequently is meditation. So I had mentioned previously that I recommend an app called the Insight Timer and I like to help clients utilize that, especially at night, but also midday, if they find a stressful part of their day. We kind of schedule this based off like what is this highest stress portions of your day? When are you feeling anxiety, stress rumination, things like that. But meditation has so many benefits from a mindfulness perspective, from a psychological perspective just stress reduction, anxiety reduction, and so that's something that I personally have been practicing meditation for 15 years and I got away from it, and this past year I've dedicated at least 30 minutes a day towards meditation and it's just had such a profound impact on my life and quality of life specifically that I find that integrating with clients I could speak from experience and then also it's been very helpful. Other things I really like to do is having them go for walks in nature, and the reason for that I like to combine two things. Walking is just a great activity in general, especially for your health, but specifically when you do it around greenery, it helps to lower cortisol and improve mood, and there's a lot of research that backs that.

Brandon DaCruz: 43:03

Another thing I really do with a lot of women that I work with specifically is self-care days. I find that I work with a lot of like busy mothers that they're always doing for others, so all day they're working like a high level corporate job and they're attending to their boss's needs or their client's needs or whatever it may be. Then they go home, they're attending to the kids, and then the big kid which is their husband, and so all day everything is about other people and they really take on that maternal role, which I love, but at the same time there isn't enough time where they're just introspectively, you know, kind of looking into themselves and saying what do I need? So a lot of times what I'll assign is like a spa day or a day to get their nails done or a massage, or even just a weekly you know, weekend family outing, and I do it specifically as part of their programming. So I actually build this into their program.

Brandon DaCruz: 43:44

And I do that because when clients feel permission to recover and to pull back, they see recovery as part of their plan and it shifts their mindset from I'm failing or I shouldn't be doing this or I need to be more productive, to I'm succeeding and going to do better by taking care of myself, and Brandon told me to do so. So it's almost like I don't want to say I'm giving them permission, because that's not what it is, but I'm kind of just encouraging them and I'm specifically putting in the plan. The plan and a lot of the people I work with are just executors and so by me incorporating this into actually something that's scheduled, I build out different programs for individuals, but when they receive their nutrition program, it's not just a nutrition plan, it's not just a meal plan. It is a nutrition and lifestyle plan. So there are modifications on a weekly basis going to any categories that fall within that, and that's been very helpful for the clients that I work with. So that's what I would suggest.

Philip Pape: 44:28

It's a lot, man. I mean that in a good way. There's a lot of hacks in there and a lot of principles. I'm not going to repeat everything you had. I want to touch on a couple of them and then add things you didn't already recover, which is a challenge, brandon, because you covered so many good things.

Philip Pape: 44:39

The deficit deload you mentioned overshooting. My listeners need to hear this because you guys you hear me talk all the time about, like, when I go to maintenance, when I want you to go to maintenance to kind of really push it and make sure you're truly at maintenance, otherwise you don't get that full benefit and I think that's really fun. And then you tied to what we talked about in the bulking question about not biasing your food toward the fun food, because then it kind of throws the other phases off. I think that's just a. If you think of your whole periodization strategy gaining, losing, sustaining as having these principles, you're going to be good right, because that's thinking over the long game. The macro rather than just this, is an extreme thing I'm doing right now. The satiety by the way, guys, check out the other podcast, chasing Clarity, because we talked a lot about that if you want details on that.

Philip Pape: 45:21

And then you said allostatic load. Sometimes I call that the metabolic stack. It's like here are the 20 things that are adding up in your life that could affect your stress and your metabolism and everything else. Where's the low hanging fruit? So you mentioned relaxation days as well as building them in. I'm going to add to that and say, yes, you have permission to do whatever the heck you makes you relax. If I want to play video games and shoot people in my video games and that relaxes me, I'm going to do that and you're not going to judge me and then also take like a four day vacation. I mean, this is the thing I've been recommending more to people is we get in a mindset of you know we're disciplined, we've got our routine, we've got our training program. Yes, we might have D loads. Is it okay to maybe take almost a week off? Maybe? I mean some people might need that, right, brandon? I mean some people need that, need that, right, brandon? I mean some people need that. I know somebody, one of my clients.

Philip Pape: 46:12

She works in the news industry man Talk about stress these days with everything happening in the news, you know so she just she just needs to take some time off and just literally do nothing for a few days. So I'm going to add to some of what you said. First, you mentioned a few of the signs of diet fatigue. I think it's important that we are tracking what's important to us so that we can recognize those signs not just subjectively but somewhat objectively, like on a rating scale or something like that. What you mentioned the hunger, the irritability, even the decline or plateauing in your strength, right, because strength and muscle, kind of, are at different timelines. If you will we talked about that earlier If you're food obsessed, if you are having trouble sleeping, a lot of those things are good signs. And then you mentioned nonlinear dieting quite a bit.

Philip Pape: 46:54

I'll say one of my favorite strategies is just the weekend refeed, right, because almost everybody has the weekend is special versus the week generally. But if your week looks different because you have shift work or your weekend is Tuesday and Wednesday, think about a weekly lifestyle that you have and align your food with that. It would be a lot easier. As well as the macro timeline of travel, right? Don't maybe you shouldn't be dieting when you travel. That's a great time to take your break and a great time to take your deload or break from training. As far as training goes, some things I've found work really well when you go to a fat loss phase, prepare for that phase with how you're going to train. Are you going to continue how you're training now? Does it make sense, or are we going to go to a new program? And this is a great time to evaluate the days per week. You know if you were doing four or five, maybe you're better off with three because you get more sleep days. Maybe, as it happened to me at one time during fat loss, I was better off with six very short sessions because it was recoverable. So think about recovery versus stress.

Philip Pape: 47:50

The second thing about training I like is auto-regulated programs as opposed to pushing your numbers programs. Right, I got a lot of guys in our community who love to push their lifts. They like PRs. You're not going to be chasing those during fat loss, most likely. And so what's an alternative? Well, rep range style programs, hypertrophy and bodybuilding style conjugate, like there's a lot of options that allow you to, on the given day, train, you know, out or near failure, whatever makes sense, without necessarily pushing your numbers, and then fatigue can really build up during fat loss if you're not careful. So tracking those sore spots, those hotspots, maybe joint connected tissue, low back fatigue, those kinds of things, measuring your soreness and energy as you go along and kind of seeing like, is that tied to your overall allostatic load and your recovery stack, can be very helpful. So I think that's all I wanted to say.

Brandon DaCruz: 48:40

Awesome. I do want to hit on something. You did mention the potential performance decrements that could be experienced in a phallus phase. I do think that it's important that you go in with a mindset of progression. What I mean by that is you should be going to try to lift more, whether that be from a rep or load perspective, especially in that initial phase, or that initial, you know, say first few weeks of a thalos phase.

Brandon DaCruz: 49:00

A lot of people they go in one of two directions. The one direction is it's almost a scarcity and fragility type of perspective where all of a sudden I've been into deficit. I've had clients that have emailed me two days into a 300 calorie deficit, which is a very modest deficit, and they might've been in a 10% calorie deficit and they've already told me. I think you know performance has dropped and it's just been a psychological thing. Our psychology has a massive impact on our physiology and it's very important to realize that. But at the same time I have the opposite end of the spectrum very advanced trainees that they want to continue making gains as they had been in a building phase and I've pushed their calories up quite high. Their training volume is in a good place in terms of their recovery ability, their volume capacity, their work capacity. And then all of a sudden they start seeing some loss of a rep here or there or they can't lift the same loads, and it's very important to realize that that is a natural and normal part of fat loss. We have to think about it from even just some biomechanics or a leveraging perspective. So say, for instance, the biggest example that I see and I just had this conversation with a client named Mark just a few days ago. He is a very advanced trainee. He's been a natural pro bodybuilder and he no longer competes, but he's still I mean, his physique is at such a greater level now that it was even when he competed. So he is an outlier, to say the least. But this past off season we did an eight month building phase leading into the current fat loss phase we're in. He hit his all time greatest strength, greatest strength numbers, greatest performance, I mean from a load and a rep volume perspective. He was off the charts and I've been training him for two and a half years so I'm able to compare really things over time and we were able to get to body weight high. That was the same as we did the last building phase, which was over a year ago, but his performance blew it out of the water. So it was just very good nutritional periodization plus training programming, matching everything together but this just recently reached out to me that his performance is dropping. Now we're 10 weeks until fat loss phase.

Brandon DaCruz: 50:46

This dude is around 7% body fat and so he's very, very lean. And what I had to explain to him is Mark, you're not only down 16 pounds as compared to where you were in the building phase, but you have lost some of your leverage. So, specifically, what he was noticing is, on his barbell incline press, he was unable to lift the same loads or he was missing like a rep or two, which still, when I broke it down from a body weight perspective, in terms of body weight towards body, you know the actual lifting, you know the actual way he was lifting. He was stronger, pound for pound. However, I've explained to him the fact that when you lose fat, you don't indiscriminately lose fat. You lose fat from your entire body. So, in terms of a pressing movement especially, you have to realize you've lost fat off your back and then also off your chest. So, technically, if you were doing the same amount of weight, you would actually be lifting more because of the fact that now it's a longer range of motion that you have to go through to get the same If you were going quote unquote full range of motion. In terms of your technique and execution, your range of motion has now been extended. So say you lost an inch off your back, an inch off your chest, just from a body fat perspective. You now have two more inches to cover with that same load. So it's not reasonable to think that you won't be able to maintain that.

Brandon DaCruz: 51:54

So you have to realize that there's many inputs that are causing potential decrements in your actual training performance. The one is that you're losing body fat, so you're a smaller individual. Your mechanics might change. It might be harder to brace certain lifts. Most times people will notice that things like their presses, some of their pulls they'll be most impacted. Then, secondarily, you have to realize that the acute energy deficit that you're in is impacting the substrates that you have available to fuel actual training performance. Now that could inhibit some motor unit recruitment or even just a recovery capacity. So now you have depleted glycogen stores, you have less actual fullness in your muscles, so that's also going to interrupt your ability to contract muscle or even go through the range of motion in the same capacity, have the same force or muscle output that you would have if you were in a full-on surplus or building phase. So there's many things. I think that we have to be a little bit more aware of these things and realize all right, I want to go in with the mindset I'm going to keep progressing, especially in that beginning. But if I start seeing things falling by the wayside I'm not saying falling in terms of like a rep or two here or there and you're deep into a fallacy realize that's par for the course. We can make adjustments to try to alleviate that, whether it be a volume reduction or intensity reduction. We're really focusing on a different rep range.

Brandon DaCruz: 53:04

I often find that it's advantageous to shift rep ranges during a fat loss phase. With some of my clientele I actually will shift them down in rep ranges rather than most people will shift things up. I actually want them to maintain that top end strength as much as possible. So I'm trying to have them feel those same loads from a neuromuscular perspective. So say, for instance, they were lifting a specific weight for six to eight reps. I might downshift that to five to seven reps during a fat loss phase, or four to six reps. I'm still going to stay within that hypertrophy zone, but I want them to feel those lifts. So it's still familiar, they still have confidence. They just may be doing, you know, say it was 300 pounds on bench. They may be doing that for three sets of four to five rather than three sets of six to seven, and so these are just different adjustments we can make. But there's also a mindset and a mental perspective you need to bring to your fat loss phases from a training perspective. That's very important.

Philip Pape: 53:50

I agree. Act as if you're building strength and muscle. Don't let it hold you back. Don't assume failure. The relative strength also often increases, and so that's kind of a fun metric.

Brandon DaCruz: 53:59

I think it's like a Wilkes score they call it.

Philip Pape: 54:00

The Wilkes score. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Right. And you mentioned lower rep range. I really do love that, because that's another misconception. Right Is is that you need more volume or more reps, or you're trying to burn fat. I do love top set back offset for people in fat loss and and only doing two sets for some people, cause it's a good way to save time sometimes and keep that top end intensity on that first step, then get the volume in on the second. That's just a little aside of something I'm in love with these days.

Philip Pape: 54:23

I think we covered it at all, didn't we? I think so, my friend. Yeah, All right. So some of the you know these were some fantastic questions and they're only some of the ones we're answering for you guys, so I want you to go catch the rest of them that we covered Appetite hunger, a whole bunch of topics on chasing clarity and, yeah, we covered four questions on there. So go follow chasing clarity, your podcast app. Check out Brandon and I over there. It's in your feed right now. Use it's in your feed right now. Use the link in the show notes. We're going to see you over there, Brandon. Thanks, brother, for doing this, for setting it up. I really, really appreciate it.

Brandon DaCruz: 54:52

Absolutely, philip, I want to say thank you not only for joining me but also for having me on, and I really hope that everyone out in both our audiences really values the evidence-based information that we brought, and I was really glad that we were unite and really benefit both our audiences in the process.

Philip Pape: 55:18

Yeah, and I always benefit personally too, man, from talking to you too and learning and growing along with the audience. So again, thanks again.

Brandon DaCruz: 55:24

Absolutely Bye.

Ronnie Coleman, King of Bodybuilding (Lifting Legends #1) | Ep 353

Get the new RESOLUTE 5-day Powerbuilding Program in Physique University and stop second-guessing your approach to lifting. Join for just $27/month and get a custom nutrition plan included when you tap this special link for podcast listeners

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Eight-time Mr. Olympia Ronnie Coleman didn't just build a legendary physique. He created a blueprint for what dedication, consistency, and love for lifting can achieve.

His famous "light weight, baby!" was about an approach to training that transformed his body and an entire culture of lifting.

This is the first episode in our new Lifting Legends series, where we connect modern training science with the rich history of lifting culture to extract timeless principles that are relevant today more than ever.

Main Takeaways:

• Ronnie's blueprint for greatness: consistency, simplicity, and genuine love for the lifting process

• Why fundamental movements (squats, deadlifts, presses, rows) built the greatest physique in bodybuilding history

• How to channel Ronnie's commitment while training smarter for long-term health and sustainability

• The difference between training hard and training smart (and why you need both)

Episode Mentioned:

• 12 Rules of Training Volume to Build More Muscle

Timestamps:

0:02 - The King's blueprint for greatness
4:22 - Ronnie's humble beginnings at Metroflex Gym
6:30 - Ssimplicity executed at an elite level
12:56 - Why Ronnie's methods align with modern science
17:13 - Building your own lifting legacy
18:44 - What to emulate vs. what to avoid from Ronnie's approach
23:25 - Excellence + sustainability
26:48 - THIS separates legends from everyone else

Ronnie Coleman and the Power of Consistency

Ronnie Coleman’s journey is one of those rare stories that goes far beyond the stage or the weight room. He wasn’t the kid born into a life of bodybuilding glory. He was a police officer in Arlington, Texas, training in his spare time at a no‑frills gym called Metroflex. That humble, sweltering space with concrete floors and zero air conditioning became the crucible that shaped an eight‑time Mr. Olympia. The message here isn’t about chasing perfection in equipment or waiting for the perfect conditions. It is about showing up, working hard, and letting consistency compound over years.

You can look at old photos of Ronnie and not immediately see the future legend. He had above‑average genetics, sure, but nothing that screamed world champion. What he did have was a work ethic that bordered on unstoppable. He genuinely loved lifting. Watch his old training clips and you see someone smiling, shouting his famous “Lightweight, baby!” before handling weights most lifters will never even attempt. That phrase wasn’t a show. It was his way of reminding himself to stay loose, confident, and excited about the work ahead.

Simplicity executed at the highest level

A lot of lifters get stuck chasing the next best program, the newest piece of equipment, or an overly complex split. Ronnie’s program was almost shockingly simple. Chest and triceps one day, back and biceps another, legs on their own day. Heavy compound lifts formed the backbone: squats, deadlifts, bench presses, bent‑over rows. These weren’t flashy or exotic movements. They were the fundamental patterns of human strength, pushed to extremes with relentless progression.

He didn’t waste energy overthinking. He didn’t abandon a plan every time he got bored. He perfected what worked and then pushed it as far as humanly possible. This is a principle that will outlast every fad in the industry. If you focus on the basics and get incrementally better over months and years, the results will come. It might not be an Olympia physique, but it will be the best version of you.

A culture of effort and respect

Metroflex Gym wasn’t designed to impress anyone. It was designed to build lifters. Ronnie trained alongside everyday gym‑goers, and by all accounts, he treated them with the same respect he gave his own goals. That environment mattered. When you train somewhere that values effort over excuses, it changes the way you show up. Even if you train alone in a garage or a small apartment gym, you can create your own culture by setting standards for yourself and following through.

Ronnie’s joy for training was contagious. He didn’t dread the hard sessions. He lived for them. And that’s another lesson worth stealing: find something about the process that you genuinely enjoy. Maybe it’s the feeling of getting stronger, maybe it’s the focus lifting brings, or maybe it’s simply knowing you’re building a better version of yourself.

Balancing intensity with longevity

We can’t ignore the reality that Ronnie’s career also came with a cost. Years of lifting at the very edge of human capacity led to injuries and long‑term physical challenges. He has said he wouldn’t change a thing, and that mindset is part of what made him great. But most of us aren’t trying to compete at that level. We want to train for decades, not just a few peak years. So take his consistency, his simplicity, and his mindset, but pair it with smarter recovery and self‑awareness. Listen to your body. Train hard, but train smart.

Build your own legacy

Ronnie Coleman proved that greatness comes from showing up, loving the work, and mastering the basics. You might not be aiming for a stage or a title, but you can still create your own legacy. Every rep you do with focus is a brick in that foundation. Every day you show up when you could have skipped is another step toward something extraordinary.

You don’t need the perfect gym, the perfect program, or the perfect timing. You need commitment. You need to care enough about your goals to keep going when it’s early, when it’s cold, when you’re tired, and when it feels like no one is watching. That’s what separates legends from everyone else. Ronnie showed us what is possible when you commit fully. Now it’s your turn to take those principles and write your own story under the bar.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

eight-time mr olympia, ronnie coleman didn't just build one of the greatest physiques in history. He created a blueprint for what dedication, consistency and a pure love for lifting can accomplish. His famous lightweight baby wasn't just about the weight on the bar. It was about an approach to training that transformed his body and an entire culture. Today we're exploring what made Ronnie legendary, how his methods shaped modern lifting, and the timeless principles you can take away from his journey to build your own greatness, because when you understand what drove the king, you'll discover lessons that go beyond the gym Lessons about consistency, simplicity and the relentless pursuit of becoming your best self.

Philip Pape: 0:58

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to celebrate one of lifting's most inspiring figures, while taking away some of the wisdom that can help you with your own training. And this is the first episode in what I'm planning as a series connecting our modern understanding of training with this rich history of lifting culture something that I feel like is getting forgotten or not discussed enough and it's a lot of fun to look into the past and see what those guys did and what we can learn from them, good and bad, to inform what we do today beyond just the science. Now the iron right, the iron culture. We've been learning lessons from that culture for generations and many of us are born in this century or born, like myself, toward the end of the last century and haven't taken the time to study those giants that came before us. But what we do, we see principles that are still relevant, and they were relevant then, but we didn't quite tie it into the science. In fact we sometimes dismiss it as bro science, and I'm here to rectify that with this series and I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. So when you look up the podcast going forward, if it says Lifting Legends, number one, number two, number three, that's the series we're talking about.

Philip Pape: 2:17

Now let's start with Ronnie Coleman. I picked him intentionally because he's got a colorful past and he's got things that are flawed about him and they and everyone does, and I want to give thing, give this the treatment it deserves. So Ronnie Coleman is is a very special piece of this history of iron culture, not just the success he had, but he had a particular approach to the success. That gives us some, helps us take a step back. For anyone who is serious about building their strength and physique, and if you want to do this yourself, if you want to build your own legacy, it's helpful to have to understand history and it's also helpful to put this into a personalized systemic approach for you. So just a quick note so that you're aware I have something called Wittemate's Physique University where you get a lot of the tools we talk about on this show to train with purpose, to eat with intention and clarity, to fuel yourself, to build consistency. That separates good lifters from great ones. And we just relaunched at a lower price. It used to be 87 a month, now it's 27 a month. And if you use the link exclusive in the show notes for listeners, you'll also get a custom nutrition plan for free from me. And, by the way, I'm doing another episode soon on a brand new training template we dropped there for power building. It's called Resolute and it's, in fact, inspired a lot by the guys we're going to be talking about in this lifting series. So use the link in the show notes $27 a month and you'll get a free nutrition plan if you use that link only.

Philip Pape: 3:45

All right, let's talk about this legend, ronnie Coleman. What made him so extraordinary? So quick history. He was born in 1964 in Monroe, louisiana, and he didn't really start serious bodybuilding until his mid-20s. You hear guys like Arnold who started as young as they could possibly get their hands on a barbell. But he was working as a police officer in Arlington, texas and he discovered Metroflex Gym. It was a very simple, no frills kind of temple to training. It's not something you see a lot these days unless you really look for it, and it would become legendary largely because of what Ronnie accomplished in that facility, metroflex.

Philip Pape: 4:22

What's fascinating about his story is how it began, because he wasn't necessarily gifted with perfect genetics from day one, although definitely superior to many, even though people assume you know, oh, genetic freak, it comes easy right. If you look at the early photos you see a good physique, but nothing that screamed future Mr Olympia. But what he had was a work ethic that you could call unshakable right. It was just part of the fiber of his being. He had a genuine love for the process of getting stronger, and I know a lot of you don't necessarily love the process of lifting. You do it for a reason and you tie it to a reason and we talk about that, whereas others and I kind of raise my hand here really do just love lifting the iron and doing the thing, and I think for a lot of us that comes to us as we do it and get the result.

Philip Pape: 5:11

But I feel like when you look at Ronnie's history, he was just in it from the beginning. He trained with joy that's what I would call it. It was like this infectious joy. You look at his smile. I mean he's just a charming guy, right? You watch any of his training videos and you'll see a guy that's not suffering through workouts. It's someone who, like this is his calling, right? He's just going to pursue it with all the enthusiasm he can muster. And there's a famous quote he would say lightweight baby, lightweight baby. And, by the way, try that yourself in the gym when you're about to go for a PR and see if it doesn't, you know, jack you up a little bit mentally when you're about to hit that. So I don't think it was bravado, right. I think it was this genuine excitement about moving heavyweights and pushing his body to new levels, and obviously the results speak for themselves. He had eight consecutive Mr Olympia titles from 1998 to 2005. It's a record that has stood to this day as the gold standard, nearly two decades later.

Philip Pape: 6:07

And, you know, sometimes people simplify it to just that. But there's a lot behind that, right, it's more than just the titles. I think Ronnie created a training culture that emphasized the fundamentals, done with extraordinary consistency. All right, really important things. Listen up, fundamentals, consistency. This is what we're going to hit on today and why I think this is so important.

Philip Pape: 6:30

So now let's talk about his training philosophy, and here's what made it so powerful Simplicity executed at an elite level. All right, simplicity executed at an elite level, the highest level Simplicity so many of us get hung up in. Things need to be more and more complex. We think advanced trainees, it has to be more and more complex and it's true, a lot of bodybuilders to this day get caught up in complex routines and a lot of exotic exercises, and you see it in the training programs out there, and sometimes we seek it out because we're looking for more variety and fun and it's okay to do that. Right, that's part of the process If it, if it helps you enjoy it and be consistent.

Philip Pape: 7:12

But Ronnie was all about the basics, man. He you know squats, deadlifts bent over rows, bench press the big lifts Right, and they weren't just like the, they weren't just the main lifts, they were kind was textbook. If you go watch videos, even with massive weights, I mean it's incredible. And he essentially proved that, look, you don't need complicated programming to build an incredible physique. I think that's a big takeaway here, right? The takeaway that we make lots of excuses. We taught, we program hop, we think we need to know more, more, more, more, more. And at the end of the day, if you're not doing the basic things to begin with, go back to those and it kind of frees you up, right, it frees up the mental stress. And if you just get really good at those, even though they might be a little boring, sure you're going to build something incredible. And of course, you need consistent progression. Right, it's about movement patterns. It's how the body moves through space, it's how we are able to sling around such massive weights and build the strength and size that we're going for.

Philip Pape: 8:15

And his training split was just a very bare bones, classic split chest and triceps, back and biceps, legs but he executed it at a high level of both intensity and consistency. And I want to be clear you can't necessarily start all out with both from day one. If you're a beginner, right, you're going to apply intensity in terms of your progression, but you need to do it in a way that you recover, that you're able to get back into the gym the next session and that you can be consistent based on the number of days per week and the hours that you have and the equipment that you have and so on. All that is important. But he kind of combined the intensity and the consistency in a very elite level, I'll say. And then I think more impressive than that is the maintenance and sustainability of that approach throughout his career. Right, he just stuck with it. He didn't chase new methods, he didn't get distracted by whatever the trends were. Fortunately, he didn't have social media for the most part, maybe until later on. No, no, he figured 2005,. The iPhone hadn't even come out. Right, he found what worked, he committed to it, that's it. And look, what works for one person should generally work for another, at the principle level, but maybe not at the specific method level. But when it comes to lifting, I think if you went back and looked at Ronnie's program and just followed it, you'd probably have great results too.

Philip Pape: 9:35

So let's talk about the culture at his gym, right, metroflex. I think this is really interesting. His home gym, called Metroflex was. It wasn't like a fancy, it wasn't a Planet Fitness type gym. Of course it was gritty, concrete floors, basic equipment, I understand they didn't have air conditioning. And this is in the Texas heat. Okay, I grew up in Florida. I live in Connecticut now, but I'll tell you the summer still get hot and humid and I don't know if Texas is a little bit drier or what, but you know to to train in that kind of temperature. I know how it feels. I know mentally what it takes to decide you're going to do that where it's not as comfortable. But it's where serious people came to do serious work, right?

Philip Pape: 10:11

The culture Ronnie created there was, as I understand it, about mutual respect and shared purpose. Everybody is there for a reason. It's not like when you go to the gym and nobody talks to each other. Everybody has their earphones in. I don't even go to commercial gyms anymore. I work out at home for the purpose that, for the main reason that I'm just there to get the work done and focus and build something. But it also saves me time. But I also understand that. I've been to gyms, even even the CrossFit gym that I used to go to, they had a camaraderie there. They had a community. Everybody was intending to do the same thing, and so it kind of elevates everyone, right? Especially when everyone's better than you and when everyone's there to get better, you end up supporting each other and feeding off of that.

Philip Pape: 10:49

And I think Ronnie, even though he was a multi-time Mr Olympia, he trained alongside regular people, right, because that's how they pay the bills at these gyms. Right, you hear the stories that, like the famous guys, the power lifters are the ones that are not. They're not making the money off of them. Right, they're making money off of regular members. But I understand that he treated people with respect, with encouragement. He's a good guy. And, again, a lot of this is secondhand, guys, as I do the research for this episode, because I don't know Ronnie personally, if he's out there listening to this and wants to correct me, or if he wants to say, yeah, that's, that's what it's about, please reach out, dude, but this is my understanding.

Philip Pape: 11:24

And so if you look at that environment, then what can we take from that? Well, your gym doesn't have to be perfect, but the way that you commit to the intentional process. Does you know? Ronnie didn't have superior equipment or facilities. He didn't have the big fancy gyms you see on YouTube walkthroughs today with you know 500 pieces of equipment specialized for every single thing I've got. You know friends that send me reels and photos and YouTube videos of all this equipment that I would just love to have and then kind of step back and say, do I really need that? Right, and Ronnie succeeded because of his effort.

Philip Pape: 11:56

His effort was superior and far above the average person, but something we can all absolutely strive for. And then he was consistent to whatever environment he was in, cause I'm sure he lifted it other places throughout his career. So don't worry about having the perfect equipment or home gym or the fanciest you know facility and options. You can adjust that stuff right. I mean, we do it in Physique University all the time. People say, well, I don't have access to that or that.

Philip Pape: 12:24

And what we say is look, here's a list of substitutions, let's figure it out, let's train around it, just like when you train around injury. You got to find something that works. You just have to have that, that grit, that mindset, that willingness to show up consistently, independent of the circumstances. And to me. That's what principles are about. That's what rock solid principles are. It's like I don't care what you throw at me. Throw, throw me in in a jungle with some rocks and I'm going to figure out how to train. So that's you know, and I don't know if I'm. I don't know if that's just me or if you feel me on that.

Philip Pape: 12:56

So when we then tie this to today and tie it to the science because at the end of the day, I would love to show you that there is a connection between the things we study today in labs to essentially validate what bro science has known for many years is that a lot of the instinct that these guys had? Like Ronnie, his training choices align with what we know today about building muscle optimally. And, honestly, it's not too much of a surprise when you think, hey, I do this, it makes me stronger, it makes me bigger, ergo, I'm going to stick with that. Right, makes sense. People have experimented for years. There's been coaches and trainers for far before we had all the modern research studies on this stuff, and so I tend to actually give more credence to a lot of that than I do research, even though we're evidence-based and we're evidence-based, we're not just science, paper-based, we're evidence-based. What is evidence? Evidence includes anecdote, coaching experience, personal experience, your own individual experience is your evidence too.

Philip Pape: 13:50

Anyway, back to Roddy. He had a huge emphasis on the compound movements and I will always, to the day I die, talk about how powerful using basic movement patterns, as a human is, is to getting a result If you have nothing else but just the compound movements, the squatting, pulling, pushing right, which can translate to a lot of different exercises. Yes, the big ones squat, deadlift, press, bench press and overhead and rows, but also variations of those. We know to this day that these exercises stimulate the most muscle mass, create the strongest strength and hypertrophy adaptations they use, you know, the full range of motion in a natural human movement. It makes total sense. It makes total sense.

Philip Pape: 14:30

And here's a guy that was doing it long before we had to put that in paper, long before starting strength came around and just wrote it in a book, very excellently, I should add, but we've known it. We've known it for a long time. And then, as far as progression, right, that's the other piece. Consistent, progressive loading, progressive overload. We call it the fundamental, you know, driver of the growth over time, of challenging yourself right to that limit and then continuing to progress.

Philip Pape: 14:53

And Ronnie did that. He was always religious about adding weight or reps over time. He used the body traditional body part split that I talked about, but he trained six days a week. Now you know he was enhanced. We're going to talk a little bit about some of the maybe negatives, I should say, or the extra help he had. But you know he was in six days a week and doing a body part split so that each muscle group could be trained frequently enough to to optimize his results. Now Arnold also did six days. He did two a days. If you ever read his bodybuilding encyclopedia it's insane. I would not recommend that to most people again, unless you're enhanced.

Philip Pape: 15:27

But the principles are still what matters. You know sufficient frequency, sufficient volume, basic lifts, hitting them consistently. I did an episode recently called the 12 Rules of Training Volume that I think you should go check out if you haven't, or listen to it again to get refreshed on what are those principles. And then, when it comes to effort, to me effort in the context of training is training with proximity to failure, for sufficient mechanical tension. So you're effectively pushing yourself to your limits.

Philip Pape: 15:55

I think, ronnie, this is an example where we could argue and say did Ronnie push too much to the limit, right Right to the end, right to failure on everything, even massive, big lifts? And again you have to think about the advantages he had. Yes, maybe extraordinary genetics I know I mentioned they weren't perhaps far above average when he was younger. It's always hard to tell that. Obviously, his physique was genetically blessed in terms of the shape and the symmetry and all that. But pharmacological support, right, peds okay, we can't deny it. All those guys were on drugs, and the ability to train and recover goes way up as a result, and so he could basically, for his full-time job, be training, and we're not trying to do that.

Philip Pape: 16:33

The principles, though, are accessible to all of us. We just have to understand that our recoverability is different. We might not be training six days a week. It might make more sense to do four or five. I will say I have trained six days a week, but then, when I've done that, it's much shorter sessions, much fewer exercises per session, because, again, I don't have the same recovery support and I'm in my 40s, etc. Not excuses, just data that tells me. Here's how I respond and how I need to modify my training, wanted to give you another reminder here that if you're trying to build your own lifting legacy and you want to be systemic about it and and take a system-based, data-based approach, we can definitely help you out inside physique university.

Philip Pape: 17:13

I'm talking about that a lot now because people are always reaching out, listeners are reaching out with questions, and I can get. I sense the not desperation, but I sense the overwhelm from all the information that's out there and we want to give you tools to train with purpose, to eat in a way that is aligned with you, that is flexible. You don't have to do diets, you just build consistency to become a really great lifter, an athlete of aging, and so Physique University is where we do that. It's 27 a month. If you join now, using my exclusive link, I'm going to build a free custom nutrition plan for you. That's normally an add-on, but we just relaunched and I'm really trying to get the group to grow here and take advantage of everything we have to offer to get you that result and the education to build your system and get rid of all the restrictive dieting and all the nonsense out there. So that was just an aside.

Philip Pape: 18:06

And back to Ronnie how do we take his approach and we adapt it to modern life? How do we extract his principles, learn from his successes and his mistakes? So let's be honest about what we should emulate and what we shouldn't. So what should we emulate? His consistency, his simplicity, his love for training. Those are solid. With that alone, his love for training, those are solid. With that alone, mic drop, you can be successful the rest of your life If you show up. Keep things simple, focus on the fundamentals and find a way to love what you do. Find a way to love the process. Either you love it naturally or there's a way. That's the psychology piece we get into, sometimes Absolutely copy that Now.

Philip Pape: 18:44

He also had a tendency to train through injuries and to push max loads, to always go for PRs, to push right to the limit, and again, some of that is because of his higher recoverability. But maybe we don't do that right and understand the differences. You know, ronnie famously said he wouldn't change anything about his approach, even knowing the physical cost. And I'm not gonna get into everything that's happened to him in, say, the last 10, 15 years. You can Google it. He's in the hospital recently, not necessarily related to this, but he's had some struggles in his older years right, and it's admirable that he is loyal to the path that he has followed. Is it wise? I don't know, that is not for me to decide. We can honor his dedication while being more strategic about our long-term health, and so I think the big takeaway from the negative or the dark side is focusing more and more on recovery, and you can't compare yourself to guys that are in PDs, elite level bodybuilders, unless they're natural right. If they're natural bodybuilders, you probably have a little bit more applicability there.

Philip Pape: 19:44

So the first thing I'm going to say here is to embrace this idea of simplicity but periodize over time, meaning you don't, you don't want to just do starting strength for the next 10 years. You don't want to just do strong lifts or five by five or like one single simple program for the next 10 years. You, you, you want to base your training on the fundamental movement patterns, but you want to cycle through periods of different intensity and variations, through that. We've talked about that on the show many times the inherent benefit of variation and how you can progress so that you can fill in weak spots and symmetry and avoid connective tissue degradation and things like that. It's still simple, though, when every time I write a training program or a template, I have a goal in mind and then I very simply strip it down to how do we get to that goal? All right, we need the main lifts, maybe some developmental variations and maybe some accessory work, and then the scheme by which you program. That might vary depending on what you're going for right. Are you going for a base of strength, going for volume, or are you going for peak intensity? So that's the first thing is embrace the simplicity but still have periodization and variety in there.

Philip Pape: 20:50

The second thing is I would also want to emulate his consistency right, always showing up, but listening to your body at the same time, and your biofeedback, not being soft and giving up right away or assuming that a little soreness is gonna. You're gonna call it quits, and I don't mean to insult you or trigger you with that, but it's true. A lot of people are a little bit soft when it comes to lifting and need to be pushed a bit. This is why I like having a coach. This is why I invite you to Physique University so we can have form checks. You could put videos up there. You can get lifted up by the culture we have of lots of people working hard at this and doing it the right way, rather than being stuck watching YouTube videos and being like, eh, I don't know if this works.

Philip Pape: 21:38

Showing up and having the consistency and then intelligently listening to your body and understanding if some days call for backing off a bit, especially if there's pain and that's your body telling you there's a point of issue in your body and so where am I going with this? Sometimes you are intentionally depriving yourself of resources, like when you're in a diet, like when you're in a calorie deficit okay, and then you have to change some things, right. The third takeaway here is find joy in the process. Find joy in the process. Respect your limits, of course, but you know, find joy in it. If you can just love training itself, that's awesome. You've got to love something about it to want to do it for decades, decades. If you're in your 40s, you're going to live to your 90s, you know, barring an accident or something, if you are training and staying healthy, right, just assume you're going to live another five decades. How are you going to enjoy doing this for five decades? There's a way for sure, but how is that going to be for you.

Philip Pape: 22:28

The fourth takeaway here that we can do is respect the fundamentals right, the, the, the basic movement patterns, and make sure that we are recovering for your capability, your age, your lack of PEDs, right, stress, managing your sleep, right, not pushing too hard with, let's say, joints and tendons that need more attention, maybe some stretching, maybe some mobility, it depends right, physical therapy, whatever you need. Just make sure to respect that All right. So I think, if you want to have one big thing that Ronnie Coleman teaches us is that to get to that level of greatness right, and I'm not saying we're going to get to his level of greatness, it's great to strive for that. But to get to that level of greatness right, and I'm not saying we're going to get to his level of great, it's great to strive for that. But to get to that level, you have to have an almost irrational commitment. And when you think about a more balanced approach, for us that's challenging the commitment or channeling that commitment, but doing it intelligently.

Philip Pape: 23:25

You know, and he, he achieved something very extraordinary because of what he did. Right, he refused to accept limits and then I think he paid a price for that. Many of us wouldn't choose to pay that. But that is what trade-offs are about, isn't it Right? We all have to make trade-offs. The beautiful thing is we don't have to make those trade-offs. We can choose to make the trade-offs we want, right? We don't have to be mediocre, that's for sure. But we don't have to self-destruct either.

Philip Pape: 23:48

There's a happy medium where you are excellent and you have longevity and sustainability. I think that's the key here, right? Excellence combined with sustainability, and then you could build something truly amazing and preserve your long-term health and preserve your long-term function, especially many of us getting started older in life. We definitely want to have that as a priority. All right, you have the same opportunity. Ronnie did no-transcript with our understanding of the importance of recovery. Channel the enthusiasm for the process, but respect what your body is telling you. I think these are all reasonable things to do and then think about what you want your lifting legacy to be. It's not something we think about a lot, is it? We just kind of go through the motions. Sometimes we listen to wits and weights. Thank you very much. We apply these things. Maybe you're making great progress, but like what is the long-term legacy right? Not just the physique you build. That's going to come and go. It's not going to be that important to you the older you get. Honestly, it's that example you set it's.

Philip Pape: 25:14

Do you want to inspire people? I don't know if you do or not. This might be just purely self-interested, and I have no problem with that, no judgment at all, because even that self-interest allows you to show up for others in your life. But do you want to inspire people and show them what's possible with your actions, with intelligent, consistent effort? I know I do. I know every time I hear from someone who listens to the podcast and says I changed their life, even if they just did it on their own, love it, in fact. I know I talk about physique adversity. It's not a sales pitch. I lowered the cost because I want to reach a lot more people and help a lot more people, right? Do you still want to be someone who's training strong and healthy in your 70s, your 80s? Yes, your 90s? Right?

Philip Pape: 25:57

Because I think Ronnie's legacy and why I'm going to enjoy doing the series isn't about the accolades or even the price he paid to get there. It's being a human representative of our species, of how powerful an outcome can be when you completely commit to a process. Again, don't take that to mean we can all be Ronnie Coleman's and have that physique. That's not what I'm saying. I think, if we wanna honor the legacy the positive side of this legacy just bring a level of dedication to your smart approach that helps you build the greatness you want but still preserves the ability to enjoy doing it for the next few decades. So what is Ronnie doing that no one else is, that few people are doing what he's doing and millions of people around the world refuse to do it, and I hope we can change. That is showing up and doing the work, no matter how he felt or what obstacles he faced.

Philip Pape: 26:48

Showing up and doing the work Can we do that? Can we do that together? Okay so you had a surgery. Okay so you got sick. Okay so you went on a trip and couldn't track your food or find a gym for two weeks. So what? You're gonna show up and you're gonna do the work. You're gonna show up and you're gonna do the work, regardless of how you feel. That's important.

Philip Pape: 27:07

At 5 am, it's cold. I go to the gym. I know I have to do squats, I don't want to do it, and yet I do it anyway and I feel great. And it's not just the endorphins, although that helps. It's the consistency of the process and what it does for you over time. It helps you do hard things and that makes everything else easier in life Easier in the right way, not in the gluttonous lazy, have things done for you, pay other people to do things for you, eh, but in the I did this and I'm a human and I can show up what kind of way.

Philip Pape: 27:34

Right, you have access to all the tools. Come on, you have access to the tools. You can squat, you can deadlift, you can press, you can row, you can do those things. You can move your body in some way. You can progressively add weight. It's just a process. You just got to do it. You't complain about it, track it, do it.

Philip Pape: 27:51

I hope there's a little tough love in here. You guys know I'm kind of a nice guy a lot and I'm even giving tough love. Probably doesn't sound like tough love to a lot of you, because there's people that are way more boisterous than I am, but you can do it. You can commit to a consistent schedule. You just got to do it. You can approach your training with the same joy and enthusiasm that made Ronnie famous. The only question is whether you will choose to use these tools right now at your disposal with the same dedication that separates legends from everyone else.

Philip Pape: 28:18

Lifting legends, guys, that's what it's about. That's what we're trying to get inspired by with this series. When you train with that level of commitment and make the ordinary extraordinary, through what? Through consistency and showing up, that's it. That's the only thing that separates the 1% from everyone else. Right, and that's how you grow. That's how you build a better version of yourself physically, mentally, everything, all the things. It translates to everything, ladies and gentlemen. It translates to everything. There are two things in my life that has made me massively confident and successful. One of those is learning to speak publicly, because I was so afraid of that for so many years, and the other is getting healthy and fit, and that's translated to everything else. All right, I think that's all I want to say.

Philip Pape: 29:01

If this episode inspired you to think bigger about your lifting journey and how to commit and how to get support and accountability, I want you to share this with someone who needs to hear this message. I want you to share this with someone who needs to hear this message. I want you to text this episode To a friend who's been struggling with consistency, or someone who needs to get inspired, someone who doesn't know much about lifting, to start getting inspired by the greats. Not just some podcaster talking, not just what the scientists say on their research papers, but the guys who've done it, the ladies and gentlemen have done it.

Philip Pape: 29:29

I don't, ladies and gentlemen, I don't know who I'm going to cover in this future. I assume there's women I'm going to cover as well. So, ladies and gentlemen, all of the tough ones of the past who've done this right. Sometimes we all need a reminder of what is possible at the extreme perhaps, but far beyond where we are today, so that we can commit and just get our butt in gear and go. That is it. That is it, guys. Until next time, I want you to keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember that every rep you do, with intentionality, with consistency, is a step toward building your own legendary story. I'm going to talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Is Your LIVER Stalling Fat Loss and Muscle Growth? (Sara Banta) | Ep 352

Want to build muscle, lose fat, and train smarter? ⁠⁠⁠Join the new Physique University for just $27/month⁠⁠⁠ and get your custom nutrition plan FREE (limited time).

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Why are you gaining belly fat even while lifting and eating well? Could your sluggish metabolism be a liver problem in disguise?

I sit down with certified supplement expert Sara Banta to reveal how your liver and thyroid work together to control metabolism, muscle retention, and fat loss and why ignoring liver health might be what’s sabotaging your fitness progress. We unpack how stress, sleep, hormones, and toxins overload your body’s ability to function efficiently, even if you’re doing everything “right.” 

If you're consistent with training and nutrition but still stuck, this might be the missing piece.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:23 – Sara’s health crisis and muscle loss
6:00 – T3, stress, and thyroid slowdown
10:02 – Iodine’s surprising benefits
13:02 – Liver's role in fat storage
18:37 – The real hierarchy of healing
25:10 – What to eliminate—and when
28:56 – Movement and metabolic communication
34:11 – Alcohol, toxins, and your thyroid
36:49 – Final truth: Why proactive health matters

Episode resources:

• Website: sarabantahealth.com 

• Facebook: @acceleratedhealthproducts 

• Instagram: @acceleratedhealthproducts 

• Youtube: @AcceleratedHealthSaraBanta

Why Your Liver Might Be Blocking Your Fat Loss and Muscle Growth

Most people chasing fat loss or muscle gain focus on calories, macros, and training intensity. Few stop to consider that their liver is the gatekeeper to both fat loss and muscle growth. Your liver is where inactive thyroid hormones are converted to the active form that drives your metabolic rate. It processes every gram of protein you eat and determines whether those nutrients end up supporting lean tissue or being stored as fat. When liver function is impaired, you can feel stuck despite doing everything “right.”

How Liver Function Impacts Your Results

If you are eating plenty of protein and lifting consistently but not building muscle, your liver might not be breaking down and repackaging amino acids efficiently. Without that step, your biceps and quads never see the building blocks they need. Your liver also has to handle toxins, hormones, and byproducts of protein metabolism. When it is overloaded, those processes slow down. Fat loss stalls, thyroid output declines, and you may even lose muscle.

The thyroid–liver connection is central to this. Your thyroid produces mostly T4, which is inactive until it is converted to T3, the active hormone that drives cellular energy production. Around 80% of that conversion happens in the liver. If the liver is burdened with toxins, stress hormones, or nutrient deficiencies, that conversion suffers, and your metabolism does too.

Signs That Liver Stress Is Holding You Back

You might notice fatigue even with enough sleep, dry skin, cold hands and feet, brain fog, or stubborn fat gain around your midsection. Lab work might look “normal” at first glance because common panels only include TSH and T4. A complete thyroid panel including free T3 and reverse T3 is more revealing. Even then, blood levels only give a snapshot and do not tell the whole story. Pay attention to biofeedback like digestion, energy, and recovery.

Lifestyle Factors That Harm Liver Function

Modern life is full of hidden stressors that impact your liver. Chronic stress from work or relationships raises reverse T3 and signals your body to store fat and shut down muscle building. Lack of sleep alone can shift your body into this survival mode. On top of that, many people regularly consume substances that directly tax the liver such as alcohol or certain medications. Add in environmental toxins like microplastics, endocrine disruptors, and poor-quality processed foods, and your liver’s workload multiplies.

Practical Steps to Support Your Liver and Thyroid

Before reaching for complex protocols or additional medications, get the basics in place.

• Sleep is non‑negotiable. Waking consistently between 3 and 4 a.m. can be a sign that your liver is struggling.

• Reduce stress where you can, and build habits like strength training that make your body more resilient.

• Choose high-quality protein sources that are easier to digest and assimilate. Many people notice improvement by prioritizing wild fish, bison, venison, or grass‑fed beef, at least temporarily.

• Be cautious with extreme dieting or long fasts, especially during high stress. Your body needs to feel safe to build muscle and burn fat.

Iodine is another overlooked factor. Adequate iodine intake supports thyroid hormone production, helps with fat oxidation, and promotes protein utilization. It also aids detoxification by helping your liver process and remove harmful compounds.

Why Strength Training Still Matters

Building and maintaining muscle increases your ability to store and use carbohydrates, supports hormone balance, and keeps your metabolism robust. The act of training itself signals your body that it needs to maintain lean tissue and energy production. Chronic cardio without adequate recovery, on the other hand, can drive up stress hormones and make things worse.

The Big Picture

If you are stalled despite consistent training and a solid diet, consider what is happening internally. Your liver and thyroid are not isolated systems. They communicate with your gut, your muscles, and even your brain. Addressing sleep, stress, and nutrition gives your liver a chance to convert hormones and process nutrients efficiently again. From there, fat loss becomes easier, and muscle building starts to show results.

Taking care of these foundations is not restrictive. It is about choosing whole, nutrient-dense foods and supporting the systems your body relies on every day. When you do, you free yourself from spinning your wheels and finally see your hard work pay off in the gym and in the mirror.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Your liver converts thyroid hormones from form to active form, processes every gram of protein you eat and determines whether nutrients get shuttled to muscle or fat. Yet most people, focused on body composition, never think about liver health. Today, my guest explains how this overlooked organ controls your metabolic rate, muscle protein synthesis and fat storage, and why liver dysfunction might explain why you're struggling with your fitness and nutrition. You'll learn how to recognize when liver function is limiting your results, which common foods and lifestyle factors can impair liver performance, and evidence-based strategies to optimize liver health for better body composition. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing how thyroid and liver function affects metabolism, muscle retention, fat loss and more.

Philip Pape: 1:02

My guest today is Sarah Banta, a certified supplement expert, health coach and founder of Accelerated Health Products. She's also the host of Accelerated Health with Sarah Banta. Go, give that a follow. She's got well over, I think, 600 episodes covering health optimization and so many topics that you guys really care about. So give her a follow.

Philip Pape: 1:23

And Sarah, the reason I wanted to have her here is she has experienced firsthand how addressing some of these health issues, some that we don't talk about enough or understand enough. The thyroid, the liver, function, everything going on in your body, how they can impact your results, your training, your metabolism, and why some people might get frustrated or hit plateaus despite doing all the right things, despite sound nutrition and sound training protocols. So today you're going to learn how thyroid and liver affects more than just the processing of what you eat and your hormones. It's evolved in hormone conversion, nutrient metabolism, muscle protein utilization, all that fun stuff that we're going to nerd out on. Today. We're going to explore what the research shows about the function of the systems in your body and with your body composition, look at lifestyle factors that can impair your health and discuss evidence-based strategies, as always, to support optimal thyroid and liver health for better results. Sarah, welcome to the show.

Sara Banta: 2:20

Thanks for having me Super excited. I love that you mentioned efficiency and energy in your intro, because I feel like so many people are banging their heads against the wall with workouts and not eating enough or trying to figure out what to eat, when they just have to figure out how their body assimilates and makes energy and becomes efficient with the results. So, anyways, I'm super excited to dive into this because we're going to tackle all of those things.

Philip Pape: 2:50

So you're saying it's not about cutting out whole food groups? Is that what you're saying?

Sara Banta: 2:54

No, it's not and it's not about taking a weight loss drug. It is about your body trusting you. It's about getting all the systems on without the clogs in the wheel per se. So we need everything to be working right and the things that disrupt it. That's what we're going to get into as well, and it does come down to thyroid and liver. Before we get into that, I thought I'd tell my little story.

Sara Banta: 3:23

I've been an athlete all my life. I was a rower, played volleyball in high school, rode at the national level, and those aren't. Rowing especially is not an easy feat. All three of my kids have done it and they've had their own health issues along the way with it. But you have to be dueling right. You've got to have strong muscle, you've got to have good cardio.

Sara Banta: 3:45

But what happened to me almost coming up on a year is I was hit with spike protein viral activity. Well, what was happening to me is my thyroid numbers went down, so my metabolism slowed down. Numbers went down, so my metabolism slowed down, and then I was eating over 200 grams of protein, which, as you know, is a lot of protein for someone my size. But my body was not assimilating that protein and turning it into muscle. And then, fortunately and fortunately, philip, I'm really boring I'm so consistent with my workouts, with my eating regimen and all of that. So anything that goes up or down, it's kind of there's like this outside factor that you've got to look at. So I was not only not building muscle, which was my goal, I was actually losing muscle and my thyroid numbers were going down. My testosterone was going down. I've always had a good, healthy testosterone. So something was amiss.

Sara Banta: 4:49

And when your body is under a stressor whether it's financial stress, your spousal stress or an internal stress of a virus, an allergy or liver being loaded, an allergy or liver being loaded, overloaded your body goes into this survival mode and it says, hey, shut down all these systems. We're not going to worry about building muscle and burning fat, because we've got to take care of this thing over here. And so my liver was not. The wheels had come off. And what people don't understand is your liver and your thyroid are directly connected. Now, regardless of what your diet is, what you're eating even you know eating nothing, you're not going to burn fat and you're not going to lose weight, because your thyroid is in charge of your metabolism. It's in charge of your metabolic rate, your body temperature and for all of you out there going well, I think I have a healthy thyroid. My doctor says it's healthy. They tested my TSH and my T4. That doesn't tell you the whole story. That's two of the many thyroid hormones.

Sara Banta: 6:00

You need to look at the big picture. You need to look at free T3, reverse T3. That will tell you what your metabolism is and what your level of stress is. That your body is seeing, because my T3 was low and my reverse T3, which was my stress hormone, was extremely high during this period. What is that telling my body? You are in survival mode, shut down metabolism. Not only shut down metabolism, but we're going to have this added propensity to store fat because we need to protect these expensive muscles around our belly, our liver, our kidneys, our gallbladder, all of these, our heart. That's why you get the belly fat when you're under stress, right, and you get that thin butt look and the big belly and the big shoulder pads. So your body goes into the survival mode and so your body actually adds on more fat than you would in a non-stressed state.

Sara Banta: 7:04

If you don't have a healthy thyroid, you're not getting energy to the brain and this is what you don't realize. Your body produces T4 and T3, just a little bit of the T3, which is the active thyroid hormone. But T4 needs to convert into T3. T4 is inactive into T3. T4 is inactive, t3 is active. 80% of T4 has to be converted into active T3. And guess where that happens? In the liver. There we go. So how is my liver going to do the job for the thyroid if it's dealing with all of these other things over here the microplastics, the endocrine disruptors, the PFAs, the artificial sweeteners and it's going to disrupt your gut? Now some people could probably eat it fine without any issues. I definitely couldn't. My body said no, so I went back to just whole foods, boring as it is, I did. But your liver cannot help your thyroid if your liver's overloaded with all of this stuff. So when you start seeing a slower metabolism, fatigue, even though you're eating or you're sleeping dry skin, thin hair, cold hands, cold feet, the brain fog, weight gain, especially around the middle that could mean that your liver is not converting that T4 to T3. And that is where the T3 is. What gives your cells that energy, the cellular energy inside the mitochondria. That is where the ATP gets up.

Sara Banta: 8:47

Now, part of this issue with the thyroid is a lack of iodine. And what does that iodine do? It increases your metabolism, right, but not only that. It helps with the protein being used for muscle building and fat oxidation. So you're going to increase that fat oxidation and increase that muscle protein synthesis. Iodine helps that metabolism slow down after, during weight loss. If you're in a cut and you usually see a metabolism slow down, iodine can keep that metabolism boosted because it increases that ATP within the cell. So if your thyroid can't work properly, it's going to make it harder to gain the muscle, to assimilate the protein that you're taking in and turn it into muscle, and easier for you to gain fat. Iodine helps with cleansing the blood so the liver can do its job. It increases the efficiency of the mitochondrial function. Without healthy mitochondria you will not have fat oxidation or muscle performance. You will also have better brain activity.

Sara Banta: 10:02

Iodine deficiency is the number one cause of brain fog, depression, anxiety. Most people on antidepressants are not getting their thyroids tested. Most people on antidepressants if they just corrected their thyroid, they probably would let go of their antidepressant medication. So iodine also helps balance out the hormones growth hormone, testosterone and even the estrogen, progesterone. Most men and women are suffering from estrogen dominance. What does that look like? Man boobs not able to develop the muscles in the body, low testosterone levels. Our testosterone in our men, as you know, I'm sure, is just plummeted.

Sara Banta: 10:49

Well, iodine plays a key role in hormone regulation, not just in the thyroid but through the whole endocrine system, and it also boosts that detoxification in your liver and your lymph. So the iodine is supporting the thyroid, but it is also supporting the liver and helping cleanse the heavy metals, the plastics, the xenoestrogens, the halogens. So, with that being said, like I mentioned, it helps with the focus and if your focus is better, guess what you're going to do in the gym? You're actually going to have better performance because you're more motivated. When you have brain fog or you're depressed, who wants to work out? I just want to sleep in bed, right, so that is all related. But then it gets to the liver.

Philip Pape: 11:38

Early on in what you were just talking about with your own personal experience. I love that you brought up the fact you were super consistent and quote-unquote, boring with your routine. Those are actually my favorite clients because then you could easily tease out the variables Not easily, but you could at least isolate the variables, like you said, and try to understand what else might be happening. You know we're doing all the right things but still something's frustrated. Is it menopause? Is it because I'm old? Right, you get all the classic kind of reasons or excuses and it might be some cascade with your liver, your thyroid, the environmental inputs coming into your body with the modern food environment. So I think that's really important for people to understand first is don't assume and fearmonger for yourself that it's like the sky is falling all over the place. It's, if you can be consistent you can help tease these out. The second thing you mentioned is this big cascade between the thyroid and the liver, which is probably news to a lot of people, and it's not surprising to me how interconnected everything is, because we see, for example, muscle and bone are more connected than we ever thought. Hormonally, right, Fat and muscle cells are more connected, and so your personal experience of, okay, checking my hormones, looking at and seeing the T4, the T3, this that you know when you first do that, people are still overwhelmed, they don't quite know what's going on and they slap a bandaid on it with just they might go straight to HRT. That may not be the solution right. And the fact that it's then linked to your metabolism.

Philip Pape: 13:02

Now we get to the special sauce here of weight loss resistance. And why can't I lose fat? And why is all the fat that I am gaining going to my belly? Why am I eating so much protein, like you did, and not able to utilize it? And finally, that gets us to two things incoming toxins and then mitigation of those toxins in the body. So when we talk about toxins, I've talked about it before in the context of chronic inflammation right, Because we often blame inflammation on, like, specific foods, but it's really the context of your lifestyle and the environment and everything coming together. Answer this question for me, Sarah is our liver capable of detoxifying quite a bit of junk that comes in from the outside if we are doing other things right, or is there a point at which, like it's just kind of a lost cause and we really have to unload those toxins coming in, If you, if that, if you feel me on that and we really have to unload those toxins coming in.

Sara Banta: 13:55

if you feel me on that, from what I've gone through and the way I live my life, I truly believe at this point in modern day society we have to support our livers with the proper supplements. But the other thing I wanted to touch on was you mentioned hormones like let's get on HRT, or I had doctors saying, oh, you need to get on a free T3 medication or you need to get on testosterone. Your testosterone is too low. My body was in a survival stress mode. It was adapting to this condition that I was dealing with. If I had thrown hormones on it which my liver would have had to process on top of everything else I was dealing with, if I had thrown hormones on it which my liver would have had to process on top of everything else I was doing, it was going to make me feel worse. And in fact a side scenario was my own 18-year-old daughter, whose menstrual cycle pain went from a five level five to a 12, where she's throwing up and wanting to yelling at me saying mom, help me, pass out, just hit me. I can't deal with this pain, something a mom should never have to witness. It was horrific. And but what I witnessed was the doctor put her on progesterone to bring up her progesterone. Well, that was going to back up her liver because she was fighting a viral issue as well, and her liver was overloaded. Within one day of using the progesterone, she got even more nauseous. She couldn't even drink water. She got that bad. So throwing on more hormones or things that your liver, your liver's got to process everything, good and bad. So you don't. You want to remove as much as you can.

Sara Banta: 15:45

When we talk about muscle growth, it starts in the liver. Your liver plays that huge role in amino acid metabolism, protein synthesis. This is the other thing, philip. When I was eating, all that protein didn't matter because my liver was not able to break it down and repackage it, those amino acids to send to my biceps and my quads. It wasn't doing what I thought it was supposed to do. So this is where the body builds and repairs muscle tissues. And so if your liver cannot properly convert amino acids or clear out ammonia from protein breakdown, you won't see results.

Sara Banta: 16:25

And the toxins, the plastics, heavy metals, excess estrogens, they get stored in the fat tissue when your liver's too backed up to eliminate them. And so when you try to burn fat without supporting the liver, those toxins just get reabsorbed, trigger inflammation, slow your metabolism and your hormones. We're talking about hormone health, the thyroid hormones, estrogen, testosterone, insulin, cortisol. They're all activated, broken down or detoxed in the liver. If your liver isn't working, you're going to see a sluggish metabolism, estrogen dominance, low testosterone, insulin resistance, cravings, high cortisol.

Sara Banta: 17:09

So all of these things and without that strong bile production. So bile is that detergent for the fat, so it and I put people through a liver cleanses where on that last day of a two week process of eating real food and taking some some herbs, on that last day you do a drink of olive oil and citrus fruit. But that olive oil is kind of that. It emulsifies with the bile to push all that bile and the dirty toxins out of the body in one big push. But without that strong bile production you can't absorb fat soluble vitamins like A and D, e and K. So here you are popping your multivitamin, not doing you any good because your body's not using it.

Philip Pape: 17:58

Let's take a step back before we get to. But you mentioned briefly, not a protocol, but kind of a hierarchical approach that people should take. Where they do the basics, they do the foundations, let's start there. When it comes to you mentioned gut health. You mentioned, of course, stress and the link between stress and your thyroid metabolism, and that's such a loaded topic. Other things to come to mind when you talk about fat, like just being recovered and sleeping and being consistent with your training and maybe not dieting all the time. So, yeah, what does that hierarchy look like? So people are like okay, I've done that, I've done that and I've done that. Now I should look at the next, like the 1%, the 5% solutions that I haven't dealt with yet.

Sara Banta: 18:37

So number one is is free? It's that sleep. None of this stuff matters. I don't care what you eat, what you do, what supplements you throw down your throat. You're not sleeping, you've got. That's step one, and it's easier said than done. My, I wear my aura ring, and it's, it's my, my priority. And what's also interesting, though, is your liver. If you're waking up at three to four in the morning, that's your liver waking you up. That's your liver screaming at you that it wants some support. So sleep is number one. Stress, Stress, easier said than done, though, right, I mean stress is the killer. It's the killer. It causes cancer, it causes brain fog, it causes headaches, it causes your hair to fall out. Why is your hair falling out? Because your thyroid shuts down, and your thyroid says we need to conserve energy. I don't know if we're gonna go through a famine for six months, or if we're being chased by a tiger, or if I'm fighting with my husband. It doesn't care. It is going to shut down your metabolism.

Philip Pape: 19:42

So for all these things we talk about where your thyroid is suspect, if you just went and got blood work, would it show up in your numbers?

Sara Banta: 19:50

Okay, but you have to get the full thyroid panel. Sure, the TSH tells you nothing. That is a thyroid stimulating hormone, that's actually a pituitary hormone. So it's telling your thyroid to produce T4. But T4 does you no good unless the liver converts that T4 to T3. And so I even have a very astute thyroid client who just got her thyroid numbers done, and she had. I saw the TSH, I saw the, the T4. And I'm looking, I see the reverse T3, and I'm keep looking down her test. I'm like where's your free T3? And then I went back because I'm like no, my eyes are just not seeing it. I said where's the free T3? She goes oh my gosh, I can't believe we didn't do it. And that is it. That is your metabolism. Now your reverse T3 says a lot as well, because that's your stress hormone.

Philip Pape: 20:47

So just to put a cap on this right, like, if you get that blood work and it looks good, is there still potentially an issue?

Sara Banta: 20:54

Yes.

Philip Pape: 20:54

Okay.

Sara Banta: 20:55

Okay. So you are different than me, Just the way that your cells can be resistant to insulin. Your cells could be more resistant than mine to thyroid hormone. So what's floating all in the blood doesn't tell the whole story, and it's a snapshot, because did the person take their thyroid medication an hour before or or not, you know? Not at all before they got the blood test. Did they just have a spike of cortisol from a huge stress moment right before their blood test? Have they been under chronic stress for months? All of these things you have to take into account and it's just a snapshot. So your thyroid numbers can go up and down and personally I'm super sensitive.

Sara Banta: 21:46

I feel my body go hypo and hyper. It does this and so it's constantly. I'm managing and I take different doses of supplements for my thyroid based on how I'm feeling. And what do I look for? Better digestion, edema or a lack of edema? My energy, of course. How is my brain working that day? Those are just signs, without a blood test to say, okay, your thyroid's on point today or it's not. And when it's not, I go okay, let's go back to the fundamentals. Where's my sleep, Where's my stress? And it's never. It's never about caloric restriction or I need to work out more, because that those, those thoughts of working out more or eating less is an additional stress.

Sara Banta: 22:39

Right, and not even just that, but not even just doing anything different, but thinking about the fact that, oh my gosh, I'm going to gain fat because my thyroid's not working. Do you not think those thoughts aren't going to affect the way your metabolism, your systems are working? Your thoughts are so powerful. So that's another thing and that's free. So train your thoughts. But with food, I prioritize wild animal protein. I love my venison, my bison, wild fish those are my go-tos. I'll eat grass-fed, grass-finished beef so your body is able to assimilate wild animal protein, wild fish, much more easily. And when I was going through this huge issue with my liver and realized what was going on, I essentially tended to eating a mostly pescatarian diet, which drove me nuts.

Philip Pape: 23:40

And I got as an elimination effectively.

Sara Banta: 23:43

And it was just for a month, just to like my liver a little bit of a break and breathing room. And I was shocked that I actually saw a difference in my muscle tone and things improving. And I thought wait a second. I thought I would get all of that from my all the good red meat I was eating, not the wimpy little fish. But what was happening was the more animal land meats were harder on my liver. Now my liver's healthy now I eat tons of those meats now. So these things are not long-term Fixed. Yeah, they're just a short term to get your body back.

Philip Pape: 24:21

So, okay, you mentioned sleep, stress, food, but you also mentioned the whole conversation about T3 was, I think, one of the takeaways for listeners. There is the importance of biofeedback and the importance of really understanding your body and that hormones and all of these things can vary within the day, day to day, week to week. It's going to depend on your stress levels and everything else. Just like when we talk about fat loss and muscle building, it's like different times of the year. You're a different person. You might even weigh a different amount, you might have. You know it's winter versus summer. There's different things going on. I like the thing about. I like what you talked about eliminating as well. Is there a standard kind of elimination protocol that you suggest for people Like doing a I hate to say carnivore, because, again, I'm not I don't advocate specific diets ever, but like cutting out what people think of as the trouble foods, let's say, like dairy or gluten or something like that?

Sara Banta: 25:10

Yeah, I do tend to prioritize wild animal protein. Fill in with the carbs and the fat, depending on your health goals. Personally, I tend to like carbs more than fat. Most people have fatty liver disease. Fatty liver disease for the American population is over 50%. If your liver is backed up, like mine was, it cannot process that very well. So any ketogenic diet, any high fat, low carb diet, is probably not going to work for you. So that's where the protein is number one and then you fill in with the fats or carbs, depending on what your preference is. I noticed when I started adding in more carbs, my metabolism went up. Imagine that when I started not fasting like I used to, my metabolism went up. Why? Because my body is trusting me.

Sara Banta: 26:08

How much money do you have in the bank? You only got $20. You're only going to spend a very little amount. If you've got millions in the bank, you're going to spend more money and your body does the same with its metabolism. So it's not about protein, carbs or fat. It's more about the specific wrong or right proteins, carbs or fats, and I'm sticking to the more whole foods or wild animal proteins like the bison, the elk, venison these foods also, phillip, there are so many ranches around the country. You just Google at delivery, bison, delivery and you will have plenty of websites show up. They're family owned, they're high quality meats. They're directly delivered to your doorstep in these nice dry ice frozen packages, no more expensive than going to get your meat from the market and it makes it super easy. So it's not a cost thing because the ultra processed foods those costs a lot of money. Your Starbucks costs a lot of money compared to this, the these whole foods that we're talking about.

Philip Pape: 27:18

Yeah, we had a cattle rancher on recently and she was talking about like one of the best places you get food is just your local farmers, your farmer's markets, like just you know, cause at least you can talk to the people raising the food and ask them about their process and what's in it and pesticides and all that stuff. I like that tip.

Berkeley: 27:35

Hello, I am Berkeley and I wanted to give a huge thank you to Philip of Wits and Weights. He has helped me so much, gave me a completely free 30 minute call where he answered all of my questions, gave lots of great insight into programming and nutrition. All of his content is really wonderful and he has a great Facebook group that is supportive and informational. He has tons of free resources that I really really enjoy and they're all super science-based. What I really love about Philip is that he always updates his guides and he makes time to answer any questions, even though I am not currently a paying client. He really has helped me so much and I'm just so grateful.

Philip Pape: 28:26

So now, what about movement strength training? So I'm obviously so grateful. So now, what about movement strength training? So I'm obviously huge in the strength training and one of the things that surprised me being in this industry now is how much that unlocks your body's capability, is the way I'm going to put it like down to the cellular level, how much of our body is tied to. It's not just having muscle mass and looking good, it's the act of training the myokines that get released and the signaling and you're using your body in space like we're meant to do. What are your thoughts on that? Tied to liver and thyroid health?

Sara Banta: 28:56

Oh, it's huge. Your cells are communicating right, and so when you are strength training, you're essentially telling your brain I want to be strong to live life, I want to be more capable, I want to be more grounded. I know that when I feel too thin or not enough muscle on my body, I feel very weak in the mind. So there's this mind body connection there. The muscle is going to burn more fat and burn more calories. Your muscles are glucose storage banks. So the more muscle you have, the more carbs you are able to eat and sponge up.

Sara Banta: 29:42

And the chronic cardio especially for women, it's not going to pay off. Your hormones are going to be wrecked, your hair's going to fall out, your skin is going to look awful and your body's going to go back to that bank thought of hey, I'm not getting enough money in my bank to be expending on an eight mile run right now. So I'm going to lower my metabolism and maybe I'm going to burn a lot of calories during that run. Then I'm going to shut it down. So with I'm a huge believer in strength training. I lift heavy weights. I try to bulk up. It's very difficult, women. You're not going to get bulky unless you're taking testosterone shots, and even then it's going to be difficult, so I'm a huge proponent of that.

Philip Pape: 30:32

My general thought. Having watched the industry and seeing how things have gone, my general advice to people is but I'm curious about your thoughts on the fasted training piece, cause that's where a lot of people go to like EAs, even if they have no problems handling the muscle, the protein coming in right and the amino acids, if they're very efficient with that, do you find them valuable or not?

Sara Banta: 30:52

Yes, so I tend to work out early in the morning and I take my iodine. I take the essential amino acids after and then I really do follow up with a big meal to help fill in and support my caloric need. Personally, that works for me. Some people need a meal in the beginning or in the morning before their workout, especially women. I feel like men can get away with a lot more. Women need to really think through their hormonal balance and how they're feeling.

Sara Banta: 31:25

So do you have to be fasted in a workout? No, Is it a possibility? Yes, but you really need to be listening to your own body and where you are. If you're in a very stressed period of time in your life, not a time to be fasted, right, we want to. If our bucket's full of stress, we don't want to add another one. Just like if our liver bucket's too full of toxins, we don't want to add another one. We need to take care and see where we are, and it might be it might be it might change in a month from now and then change back again for you.

Sara Banta: 32:02

If you are constantly doing the same routine every single day, with the same workouts and the same food, your body's not going to make any big adjustments because it's just going to settle right into that routine.

Sara Banta: 32:18

You know there's that study where they've looked at different tribes around the world where they're doing a whole lot more physical activity than we are, but they're eating the same amount of calories because their bodies adjust. You know your metabolism is going to adjust. So the two biggest things when you're talking about fat loss or muscle building and getting results is your liver and your thyroid. And, like I said, if you choose to eat a meal before your workout or if you choose to be fasted, that's not going to make or break you if you have not addressed the thyroid and the liver. And those things are also related to your sleep and your stress. So it's all interconnected. The cells are talking. Your cells are, just like in your interview about bone and muscle, how they're interrelated, which is super fascinating and makes total sense. All of our cells are talking, All of our organs are talking. You're not just having the head doctor and then the liver doctor and the kidney doctor and the muscle doctor. They're all connected.

Philip Pape: 33:31

I feel like Eastern medicine has known this a lot longer than we have, right? Yeah, absolutely. I think there's one little elephant little or big elephant in the room. People are thinking because we said liver about 100 times and that, of course, is some of the biggest toxins that we're all aware of that maybe we shouldn't imbibe in on a regular basis. Let's just hit on those Alcohol. But I also want to talk about smoking. You would think by now anybody health conscious would not even think about smoking, let alone addiction and all that. But I'm even curious about pot and like cigars and pipes and all that because I've got friends who are like, yeah, I celebrate with my cigars, no big deal, but they're super health conscious everywhere else. How much toxic load does that stuff put on your liver?

Sara Banta: 34:11

Oh, it's not even just your liver. All of the toxins from smoking love your thyroid. Oh, yes, love your thyroid. So you're slow, you think you're suppressing your appetite and you're going to have a weight loss effect from that smoking. It's actually slowing down your thyroid. But, yes, all those toxins are hitting your liver.

Sara Banta: 34:32

Alcohol is a poison. There's no storage capacity for alcohol in the body and you might think, oh well, that's good news, that means that I can drink and nothing's going to be stored. No, what that does is the body says, okay, stop, we got to stop everything else, anything that comes in, other than the alcohol, the carbs, the protein, fat. We're going to store it in our fat cells because we got to burn, burn, burn this alcohol right now, right. And so the liver is just under attack.

Sara Banta: 35:05

And you know I have alcoholism in my family and I don't tend to drink. I've not, I have not said to myself oh, you're never going to be, you're never going to drink, because I don't want to do that to myself. But it's so funny because I'll go out and I'll be offered a drink and I'll think. You know, I feel too good, I don't want. It takes me down when you optimize your thyroid and your energy is up and you feel good. You don't want to be taken down.

Sara Banta: 35:34

My kids, you know, they've experimented a little bit with alcohol. They don't care for it because they feel good on a regular basis and most people are suffering from anxiety and depression and they're using it as a coping mechanism. So the problem is, is alcohol and other drugs, but specifically alcohol makes you more impulsive when you're not drinking. It makes you more depressed when you're not drinking and obviously your tolerance goes up and you need more and more and more. And it's also empty calories and alcohol also crosses the blood-brain barrier. There are so many things that you're looking at it going. Why would I do that? It's true.

Philip Pape: 36:20

Okay, yeah, I know I just wanted to address that because again, people think about that. I'll call that an easy one, but it could be a very hard one depending on your history. But easy in that has a huge positive impact if you can reduce or eliminate and, like you said, reframe and focus on what is life without it and how great can that be and how wonderful it is when we're doing these health-focused activities and foods and drinks. Okay, is there anything I'll say like a misconception or a big thing we didn't hit on related to this topic that you want people to leave with?

Sara Banta: 36:49

I would just say we are no longer in our grandparents' generation, especially if you're wanting to live a vibrant, energy-filled life, and that does require addressing your thyroid, your liver, your stress, your sleep, and more chronic disease than ever before is occurring in everybody, in all ages. Our children one out of three children have a chronic disease that is going to last a lifetime. One in three 25% of children have fatty liver disease. Fatty liver disease used to be an alcoholic's disease and now our children have it. There's something going on that was not here before and it's it's time to wake up. It's time to face the fact that if you want to live a vibrant, healthy life and enjoy the muscle building, the fat burning, but just the energy, the pain-free lifestyle, lack of inflammation or disease, you'll have to be proactive, but you don't have to be constrained or restricted. Like I mentioned, the food guide has hundreds of foods that are delicious, that will help your body heal instead of causing inflammation and causing your chronic disease to worsen. So there are answers.

Philip Pape: 38:13

Yeah, and that's the empowering message that, at the end of the day, we want to take from this. If you focus on yourself, you listen to yourself, you act like an engineer and stabilize some of the variables here and tweak one thing at a time and reach out to and listen to podcasts like ours and Sarah's, I think you'll be empowered, and then it's just a matter of your choice and your actions. So, speaking of taking action, sarah, where can people learn more about you and your work?

Sara Banta: 38:37

Everything's at sarahbantahealthcom. I've got free group coaching because after today you might be going. Wait a second. I have questions. You post the questions in the group chat. I answer daily, seven days a week, almost 24 hours a day, unfortunately for me and my family. But I also post tips and tools, new podcasts, new articles. I write tons of articles. I love writing articles, protocols. You can also get your free protocol off of my website. Just write in what your condition is and I will put together a supplement protocol writing articles, protocols. You can also get your free protocol off of my website. Just write in what your condition is and I will put together a supplement protocol for you. And I truly believe that God's put me on earth to help all of you, and that's my mission.

Philip Pape: 39:22

And I can get on board with that. I feel you, that is our intent. We are trying to help in every way we can and lots of people need it and thank goodness for these platforms like our podcast. We're going to send folks to sarahbantahealthcom for all the stuff you just heard about the Q&A, the Tips to Pools podcast, the resources, the articles, everything. And Sarah, it's been a blast. Thank you so much for coming on. Wits and Weights, thanks, thank you.

How to Warmup and Lift Heavy Weights Safely (Cold Start Problem) | Ep 351

Get a full Lifting Lessons course including how to warmup in Physique University and stop second-guessing your approach to lifting. Join for just $27/month and get a custom nutrition plan included when you tap this special link for podcast listeners

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Most lifters either skip their warmup or spend 30 minutes on elaborate routines that miss the point.

Learn how the engineering concept of the Cold Start Problem reveals the systematic approach to preparing your body for heavy lifting.

Discover why your body needs a proper boot sequence before loading heavy weights, and how to design a targeted warmup that primes your nervous system for peak performance while serving as a diagnostic tool for your training readiness.

Main Takeaways:

• Your body operates like a computer system that requires proper initialization before running high-performance tasks

• The 3-phase warmup sequence: System Power-On, Hardware Check, and Application-Specific Loading

• Your warmup serves as both preparation and diagnostic tool... listen to what your body is telling you!

• Movement-specific ramp-up sets are non-negotiable; everything else is optional based on your needs

• Distinguish between normal muscle soreness (DOMS) and pain that signals potential problems

Episode Mentioned:

• Never Fall Off Track Again with Your Fitness or Fat Loss - Risk management principles for training

Timestamps:

1:16 - Why most warmup approaches are fundamentally flawed
3:37 - The Cold Start Problem
6:13 - The 3-phase warmup sequence
10:41 - Example: How to warmup for a 405-pound deadlift
14:50 - The biggest warmup mistakes to avoid
17:49 - Using your warmup as a diagnostic tool
19:03 - DOMS vs. pain
20:59 - Customizing warmups for different scenarios
24:39 - Systemic communication within your body during warmups

Stop Skipping Your Warmup if You Want to Lift Heavy and Stay Injury‑Free

Most lifters think warming up means breaking a sweat or stretching for a few minutes. Others see it as wasted time. Both mindsets miss the point. Your body is a complex system. If you jump straight into heavy squats or deadlifts without properly preparing, it is like trying to run demanding software on a computer that is still booting up. Performance suffers, and the risk of injury skyrockets.

The Cold Start Problem in the Gym

When you’ve been sitting all day or you train first thing in the morning, your muscles are cold, your joints have less synovial fluid circulating, and your nervous system is not primed to fire. If you load a heavy barbell in that state, you’re forcing a “cold start.” Instead of operating at peak output, your body is scrambling to catch up. That lag robs you of strength, makes your movement patterns sloppy, and puts you at risk for strains or worse.

Build a Warmup That Actually Works

A smart warmup is short, intentional, and specific. You don’t need 30 minutes of foam rolling, activation drills, and mobility circuits. You also don’t need to skip it altogether. Treat your warmup like a boot sequence with three phases:

1. System Power On (General Warmup)

Three to five minutes of light movement to raise your core temperature. A rower, bike, brisk walk, or a few bodyweight moves are enough. On a warm day or later in the day when you’ve been active, you can skip this step.

2. Hardware Check (Mobility and Range of Motion)

A quick diagnostic for your joints and movement quality. Can you get into a deep squat without restriction? Does your shoulder feel stable? If you have a history of injuries, add a few targeted stretches or mobility drills here. Keep it brief and specific.

3. Movement‑Specific Loading (Non‑Negotiable)

This is where most lifters should focus. Perform the lift you’re about to train, starting with an empty bar or very light weight, then ramp up with progressively heavier sets. Fewer reps as the weight increases. Each ramp‑up set grooves your technique, primes your nervous system, and gives you instant feedback on how ready your body is.

Avoid These Common Warmup Mistakes

• Spending 20 minutes on every possible drill and wasting energy before the main work.

• Skipping warmups entirely and jumping into heavy sets cold.

• Using the same generic warmup regardless of the day’s lifts.

• Treating warmup time as physical therapy for underlying movement problems that need separate attention.

Warmup as a Diagnostic Tool

A good warmup doesn’t just prepare you physically. It tells you how you’re performing today. If a weight that usually feels easy feels unusually heavy, or if pain appears rather than normal soreness, that is your signal to adjust. Maybe you drop the load, switch an exercise, or take extra rest.

Morning, Age, and PR Days

If you train in the morning or are over 40, add a little extra time or smaller jumps between warmup sets. On PR days, be meticulous with your ramp‑up sets. Stop a few steps short of the PR to conserve energy and give yourself the best shot at a successful lift.

The Payoff

A warmup isn’t a chore. It is part of your training program. It lets you lift heavier, safer, and with better technique. It primes your nervous system, wakes up your movement patterns, and gives you critical feedback so you can train with confidence.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're jumping straight from walking into the gym to loading plates on the bar, you're making a critical systems error that is robbing you of strength and inviting injury. Most lifters think warming up is about getting loose or breaking a sweat, but your body operates like a complex system and trying to run high-performance tasks before properly initializing is a recipe for malfunction. Today, we're exposing why most warm-ups are either too long, too short or completely missing the point. You'll discover the engineering principle that explains what happens when you start lifting cold, how to design a boot sequence that primes your nervous system for peak performance, and why the difference between muscle soreness and actual pain could save your training career. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're tackling something that happens before you even touch your first working set in the gym, but might be the most critical part of your entire training session.

Philip Pape: 1:16

Now most lifters approach warming up like it is a mystical ritual involving foam rollers, resistance bands, dynamic stretching. You know enough to choreograph a dancer team and, trust me, I've been there. I used to do CrossFit. Others treat it like an annoying speed bump between walking into the gym and getting to the real work. Let's just get this over with. But I think both approaches are flawed because they misunderstand the purpose of the warmup and what it needs to accomplish, which is what we're talking about today. The truth is that your body, like we talk about all the time on the show, is a sophisticated system. I've learned from hard knocks, my own injuries and surgeries and other bumps and bruises along the way, that it requires purpose and intentionality. And if we're to use an analogy of a computer, you need to initialize your operating system so that you can operate at peak performance. And if you skip the sequence or if you execute it in the wrong way, you're not just missing out on the gains, the reason that you're in the gym, but you're actually potentially holding your back and making it harder on your physiology, on your recovery.

Philip Pape: 2:22

Now, before we get into the specifics of building up your warmup routine, I do want to share something that can help you systematize this and be very intentional about how you do it. Wits and Weights Physique University gives you those frameworks. We have a course called Lifting Lessons in our training templates course and it gives you chunks of practical recommendations on every one of these and it demos how to do different things, how to warm up, what to have in your gym bag, how to use a power rack, how to live safely, et cetera. And that's how I've structured it, because I've learned from personal experience, from coaching people, from training, what really works for these different things and how people get stuck when they want to go and start lifting weights. So if you're totally new to lifting, or if you've been lifting but you're not confident enough with some of these things, we can definitely help you there and we are relaunching at a much lower tier. It's $27 a month, used to be $87 a month and if you join using my link in the show notes, I'm going to build you a custom nutrition plan at no extra cost. It is a combination of nutrition, training and lifestyle in there A lot of great courses, no pressure, a good community, and it's going to help you get where you want to go. All right, let's talk about warming up and understanding what we're actually trying to solve here.

Philip Pape: 3:37

In systems engineering, we have something called the cold start problem. When you power on a computer from a completely shut down state, it's cold, right, it doesn't immediately operate at its full capability. You've probably seen this with your own computer at home. If it's been off and you turn it up, it takes a while to kind of crunch on. You know, not everything is ready to go. There's just this lag there, right. The system has to load the operating system, it has to initialize drivers, allocate memory, synchronize all the components. And if you try to just jump into, like your video editor or some high performance application before it completes, you know it might crash, you might get an error, it might just really slow down until it's ready to go. Computers get better and better at handling all of this stuff.

Philip Pape: 4:25

But if we think of your body as working the same way, I think it's a good analogy for this process from the time you walk into the gym to the time you lift. So when you walk into the gym, especially guys and girls, ladies who've been sitting at a desk all day, raise your hand, okay, or you just rolled out of bed. Because I train early in the morning, I do try to take some time to eat and read and kind of wake up mentally before I go to the gym. But not all of you have that luxury and some of you just jump right into it. Your musculoskeletal system and your nervous system, it's like they're powered down, it's like they have to have a cold start right. Your muscles are at a very low temperature, your joints don't have the synovial fluid circulating yet, your nervous system isn't yet primed for rapid force production, the kind of power that we put into place when we lift weights, and your motor patterns are a little bit sluggish and a little bit dormant. And so if you load heavy weight onto this unrepaired system, it again is like the analogy I just said trying to launch a really demanding program on a computer. That is still like trying to start up. You're asking for poor performance at best and a crash at worst. And I just I like this analogy. I nerd out on this stuff, if you don't just bear with me.

Philip Pape: 5:37

So where most people screw it up, I'll say, is they either skip the warmup entirely. And I know some of you starting strength guys you're like, oh, I'll just jump right into the lift and warm up with the lift. Okay, I get it, and that might be part of the solution and there's still a way to warm up properly doing it that way. But that's one approach. Other extreme is I'm going to spend 20 or 30 minutes of my workout doing all the warmups, and this week I'm going to add in mobility, and then I'm going to add in breathing, and I'm going to add in dynamic stretching right, and it's like I have to do all this stuff and there's a nice happy medium, right? We don't need to do all of this and we also don't need to skip everything.

Philip Pape: 6:13

The fundamental principle here is that your warmup should be targeted for you, based on your needs and recoverability, and so I'm going to give you some options today. Think of it as having three distinct phases and think about the phases that you need and how long they need to be. Some of these phases may be minimal to non-existent, and others may be the most helpful thing that you personally need in the gym. So phase one is the system power on. We're gonna use the computer analogy. This is the general warmup, and if you're like me, who lives in the Northeast, I train over over my garage where it's like 50 degrees in the winter. It is cold, I'm cold, my muscles are cold, and this is like three to five minutes at most of some sort of low intensity movement. Maybe you have a rower, maybe you have an assault bike like I do, maybe I have just walk around the gym. I don't want you to be running or sprinting at this point. Just keep it easy, light and warm yourself up. Just move.

Philip Pape: 7:13

The goal isn't to break a sweat or to exhaust yourself. You're just increasing your core body temperature. You're getting your joints lubed up with a synovial fluid and if you're already warm, or if it's a warm day or you've been sweating, you know, then you could skip this. You could skip it. I mean honestly, if you're, if it's 4 PM, you've been working all day, you've been moving around, it's a, it's a pleasant day. You probably don't even need to warm up. You know. Increase your body temperature, that's it. So don't do the dynamic stretches or any of that stuff. Or you know you don't have to do jump ropes. You don't have to do leg skips, any of that. You don't have to. I mean, you could, obviously, but I'm not going to waste my power, my muscles or any of that on the warmup. I'm going to keep that for the lifting. So that's phase one. Phase two is like the hardware check right. So now you've warmed up, now you got to make sure things are operating right.

Philip Pape: 8:05

This is where you prep your movement. You do maybe some targeted stuff if needed, and what I mean by that is maybe some stretching or mobility work. If you have, for example, limitation most people, especially the younger you are and if you don't have a history of any issues, you don't need any stretching at all. And some might argue that too much stretching could be a negative when you get under the bar right, because you kind of have almost an over-flexibility versus the kind of strong, slight springiness, stiffness if you will. But what you're looking for here is whether everything is moving and feeling good. Can you get into that squat position? Can you reach overhead? Is your low back feeling good? Nothing feels like it's going to spring out of place.

Philip Pape: 8:50

For those of us with a history of shoulder injuries or knee issues or whatever, do you need to throw on your compression sleeves at this point? Do you need to do stretches under the bar right? If you're squatting? This is a really good one. It might mean grabbing the bar in the rack and just getting under and stretching into that squat position to warm up your shoulders. You know your thoracic rotation, just kind of making sure you've got that range of motion, Some wall slides. If you're talking about overhead pressing, your shoulders are very stiff.

Philip Pape: 9:22

I can go on and on about shoulder stretching myself with bands and stuff. But again, you may not even need this. It's not about activation drills or elaborate movement sequences or pre-exercise or anything like that. It's just is your hardware functioning for the patterns that you are now going to load? That's all it is. But I wanted to mention it because it's an important piece that I do think some people dismiss it as like, eh, nobody has to do that. No, some people do have to do that and I'm acknowledging that for you. But it doesn't have to be a crazy amount, just a little bit of stretching for a few minutes per your needs.

Philip Pape: 9:58

And then the final phase, and this is the non-negotiable part. So again, phases one and two may be partly optional or totally optional for you. The final phase is the, I'll say, application-specific loading. So if we're gonna take the computer analogy but it also that term applies to our body this is where you perform the movement that you're going to train. That's it. You perform the movement you're going to train and you start light and you gradually increase the load until you reach your working weight, and you do that by starting with a higher number of reps at a very lightweight and then jumping up in reasonable increments higher weights, lower reps, taking a little bit of rest but not too much all the way until you're ready for the working sets.

Philip Pape: 10:41

And so what does that look like in practice? Let's say let's go with a big weight Just to give you the full Monty. Here You're going to deadlift 405 and that's your working set. Okay, and maybe it's singles or doubles or triples, doesn't matter whatever, you're 405. So you're going to have a ramp up. It's going to look something like this you might start with the empty barbell. Now, granted, somebody lifting 405 may not start with the empty barbell, is probably going to jump right to 135. But hey, it doesn't hurt.

Philip Pape: 11:08

In fact, you can consider that part of phase two. That's like stretching into the movement right, start with the empty barbell, see how everything feels with your back, with your hip hinging, your knees, you know. Make sure the form is good. Another wrong with doing that it's going to take an extra minute or two. So you might start with the empty barbell for five or 10 reps. Do it once or twice, then you're going to take, you know, enough time to load 45s on the plate to warm up for 135. And you might do that for five or eight, right? I know starting strength has a model where it's like it's like five, five, three, two, one, but that's because they're going for fives. For you you might want to go with more reps at the lower weight and then you know, go eight, five, three, two, one, for example. Just just an idea. So you're dead lifting one, 35 or eight. Okay, add two more 45s, two, 25 for five. Add two more 45s, three, 15 for three.

Philip Pape: 11:58

You notice I'm jumping, kind of it's not a tiny, it's not tiny jumps, it's it's reasonable jumps to kind of split the whole thing from empty bar to working weight into like five or six segments, right, so 315 for three. Then you add, maybe at that point you add the 25s, and do 365 for a double, and then you could jump to 405 right from there. Some people want to have a little extra single snuck in there, so you might jump to 385 for a single and then you're 405, right, it's a little bit of an art, a little bit of a science. The point is you got to feel good, you have to feel warmed up, and so this allows you to gauge your movement readiness as you get to that point, which also helps you understand whether the weight's going to feel good, how you're going to perform right. It gives you a lot of aspects of self-regulation that people miss when they don't warm up properly or intentionally.

Philip Pape: 12:50

So notice what's happening here right. You're not just getting warm because that will warm you up by the way Like that alone will warm most people up. You're rehearsing the movement pattern. You're teaching your nervous system to coordinate all of the muscles involved and you're gradually loading the tissues to prepare them for heavier weight. You're recruiting more and more muscle fibers. You're just gradually kind of massaging out that muscle system, if you will.

Philip Pape: 13:16

And so each ramp up set is both a warmup and a practice session, a skill development session, and so you treat them seriously. You don't just rush through each warmup set. You're thinking about your cues, your form, and because they're light, they allow you to screw up a little bit as you're getting over that morning. Or you know that initial clumsiness that we all have when we first start our warmup in the gym, which is great, because then, by the time you hit real serious weights, you're going to be solid, and this approach is supported by every credible strength coach. I know Eric Helms calls it movement-specific preparation. Greg Knuckles says that if you're going to do one thing, make it specific to what you're training. Mark Ripito of Starting Strength says that you warm up with the movement you're about to train. That's the warm-up. So it kind of is consistent, but it doesn't preclude doing some of the other things we talked about ahead of time if needed.

Philip Pape: 14:09

Speaking of systemic approaches and intentionality, this is what we teach inside Physique University. Again, just to accelerate the process for you and in case you feel like you're still going to be guessing when you go to the gym, we've got a course that walks you through these and, of course, support and accountability so you can post and say hey, how do I warm up for my squat today? I'm doing this at this weight. Is this what I should be doing? Does this training program make sense? You know, take out the guesswork, give you frameworks just 27 a month and I'm gonna throw in a custom nutrition plan today if you join using the special link in the show notes. If you go to the public website landing page, you get the same price, but you won't get the free plan. So use my link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 14:50

All right, let's address some of the biggest mistakes that I see with warmups, because you know it's good to know what not to do as well, cause everybody's thinking here who's watching? Okay, that sounds great, but there are things that I've done for my warmup. Is it okay to do those? Can I keep doing them? Are they helpful? And I think I think the biggest first mistake a lot of people have and it comes from like the bootcamp world, crossfit, f45 world is the everything warmup right, where you spend a lot of time with foam rolling, with dynamic stretches, with mobility on every single limb, maybe yoga positions activating muscles that are firing just fine on their own right. I got to activate my glute muscles. That's actually overloading yourself. You're doing too much before, like you're loading too many background tasks before launching the main application, to go back to the computer analogy, right. So that's the first mistake.

Philip Pape: 15:46

Mistake number two is the other extreme, the nothing warmup. Go straight from the locker room to loading up, you know, maybe not the full working weight, but you go like half halfway there you do a warmup and then you load up the max on the bar, excuse me, right. And that's again like trying to run a graphics intensive game right after you turn on your computer. Right, you got to wait for everything to load up first. Mistake number three is, I'll say, the generic warmup. It's like this is my warmup. I do it all the time, right, it's the same routine, regardless of what you're training, and I would say that on a given day, based on what you're lifting, that the warmup is going to have to conform to get you ready for that. Yes, obviously, the lift itself will, by definition, do that for you. But even when you're like warming up joints and stuff, if I'm not doing any upper body, I'm not going to spend as much time loosening up my shoulder If I literally don't have to use my shoulder in almost any lift for the day. Like, why waste the time you don't really have to Understanding that there are systemic? You know there are connections in the body that are systemic such that you sometimes do need to do that, but you've got to make a judgment call on that. So that's mistake number three.

Philip Pape: 16:56

Mistake number four is another big one, and that is, I'll say, confusing warmups with therapy, right, like, in other words, like physical therapy, if you need 20 minutes of mobility work just to get into a squat position. I think that's more of a movement problem that has to be addressed separately. That's just my opinion. Even me, the guy with shoulder issues it doesn't take me that long to get ready to use my shoulder in a workout, knowing that the lift I'm going to apply next is appropriate for what I'm dealing with. If it's not appropriate, then you may feel like, geez, I need to do all of this stuff first to get into that position. That is just my opinion. You may disagree, you may have a specific limitation, you're like no, I really do 15 minutes, need 15 minutes. I'm just sharing like general mistakes people have where there could be something else going on and I alluded to this before.

Philip Pape: 17:49

But the warmup is a diagnostic tool. It is giving you real-time feedback about how your body, your system, is functioning right now. Today, if your usual warm-up weights like if you're going for that 405 deadlift but the warm-up at 315 just feels really, really heavy for some reason If your movement quality is off, maybe you're just low on energy. You've been dieting, you didn't have enough sleep, the quality is off. Low on energy, you've been dieting, you didn't have enough sleep, the quality is off. If you have pain rather than the normal soreness or stiffness, right, pain that wasn't there before, and you're like what is this? Your body is talking to you right then, and there, like that's a really good thing to listen, to listen to what's going on.

Philip Pape: 18:30

I don't want you to make excuses, right, because sometimes it feels a little heavy and it's just because we're still warming up and then we go after the working weight and you know what we get the working weight. It's fine, right? I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if something's off, something's just off, it might tell you something. And if you're in a dieting phase and you're using auto-regulated type programming like rep ranges, that may be the thing that's telling you. This is what I need to hit today for the reps or for the weight or for the RP or RIR. Right, I would say that's more of an advanced kind of thing, but the warmup can help with that.

Philip Pape: 19:03

And so one more thing comes to mind now that I think about it is the difference between soreness or delayed onset, muscle soreness, doms and pain, because I think some people confuse it too. Yes, I want you to warm up. If you have soreness, try warming up and seeing if you're good to go. But if it's an acute pain, a sharp pain, something that doesn't improve as you warm up, pain that gets worse as you're loading into the warmup, pains that's sharper, radiating pain that creates instability or you're compensating for because it just feels so weak, again it's telling you something and that is the point at which you're able to make a decision and do something about it. Okay, and some of us who've dealt with injuries and surgeries, we get really good at understanding whether our body's ready for something on a given day.

Philip Pape: 19:51

And it may not be that you just don't train. My preference is you train around it or you train something different. Right, if my back is like super sore and fatigued, even on a very light squat, I'm like well, you know, I remember in the past this has caused me to like have a flare up right. This is back in the day when I had a herniated disc, I don't know. So I don't get the pain, but it might tell me to hey, maybe I shouldn't be doing this today because it's right on the cusp. I'm going to do a different. Maybe a couple accessory lifts, like a leg press right and an RDL or something to work similar muscle groups.

Philip Pape: 20:26

So the warmup isn't just for prep, it's a really good diagnostic and then, when it reveals problems, you then have options right. Reducing the intensity, working around with different exercises yes, maybe skipping training I think that's the last resort. But the key here is to listen to the feedback that your body, your system provides and not just push through the warning signals. And that's not just me giving you a disclaimer, that's like really good practical advice. Now, if you're trying to customize your warmup for different scenarios, I wanted to give you some options here, because I know what your next question is like.

Philip Pape: 20:59

Well, what if I work out in the morning? Well, what if I do this? So morning sessions usually require a little more warmup. That's just the fact of it. Your nervous system is sluggish, your joints are stiffer, your core temperature is lower and you just may need to do a little bit extra, but not much, you know. An extra couple minutes, right? An extra ramp up set, something like that. And, by the way, once you're warmed up and have done a lift similar muscle groups that are being used for subsequent exercises you may not need to be warm up nearly as much. I always have one warm up set, you know, and subsequent lifts, unless it's super isolating, like a bicep curl, and even then I still might do a warmup set just to kind of prime things and then I can really hit it hard for the working set right. But an extra minute or two if needed, great, go for it.

Philip Pape: 21:46

If you are older right over 30, over 40, over 50, you know it's not really an age thing so much as a personal recovery thing you might benefit from more conservative jumps between the warmup weights. Your tissues may need, you know, more gradual loading. Hold on, I'm having tech issues on my end. Your tissues may need more gradual loading to reach the readiness versus when you were in your twenties, right, so you know the synovial fluid, the joints, the connective tissue. But again, don't use that as an excuse to go with a 20-minute warm-up.

Philip Pape: 22:20

If you're later in the day but you've been sitting all day or you're stressed to the brim right, which many of us are from our work, your movement quality could be compromised from that. It's very interesting because I work out in the morning almost always, but occasionally I'll have to work out in the afternoon to move things around and I just feel different. I actually don't feel as energized, I feel a little bit sluggish. My body's not used to it. So simply being in a different context or different gym, different day of the week, different time, you really just have to think about. Should my warmup be a little bit more intentional today? Right. Should I target anything more intentionally? Right, but keep it specific to what you've identified not undoing everything and warming up for 30 minutes If you have a max effort day. If you're going for a PR, right.

Philip Pape: 23:06

The warmup for that kind of lift is really critical. You want to be meticulous about the ramp up. You might want to take smaller jumps, but you don't want to over fatigue yourself for that single. But you might want to have a few singles near the target weight, but not too close to the target weight. It's like you're priming your nervous system to perform but you're not overstressing it. Definitely a little bit of art as well as science, but it is one of the most common questions I see, both in physique university and with my coach, andy Baker.

Philip Pape: 23:35

People ask like okay, how do I warm up to hit a PR? And my simplest explanation for that is you're going to warm up like any other lift. You might have an extra single or two. Don't make the last single too close to your last PR, right, keep it like some distance away and then go for a small PR, like, don't do a single that's near your PR already, cause that might tax you out too much. Where you can't hit a PR, give some room, take the time, the three, the four, the five minutes break and then go for that single, that max at your, you know, five pound PR, 10 pound or two and a half pound PR, whatever it is, just to give yourself the best chance of actually getting it. Now, if you miss it, you miss it. If you, but you gave yourself a chance, if you hit it and you feel great, then maybe that's a warmup for an even higher PR. That's just one more single in the way, and now you can take another three, four or five minute break and then hit another PR, right. But if it feels tough or a grind, stay there, like, like, take the wind, take the PR. That's the general philosophy for that.

Philip Pape: 24:39

So I mentioned I mentioned earlier at one point, how our body is systemic. Right, things are connected and I didn't want to forget to mention this. But you're, when you're warming up, right, when you've got the movement patterns and you're priming your nervous system, there's a lot of communication going on. Right, the muscles are an endocrine organ. That means hormones and signals involved, chemical signals, and so when you are ramping up those warmups you're already starting to get one of the benefits that I've talked about before about lifting, which is muscles that release signaling molecules called myokines and they help coordinate this response throughout your body. It is chemical messengers that response throughout your body. It is chemical messengers that are telling your body get ready for what's about to come. Because you're already kind of doing it right. You're warming up, doing those patterns, but you're doing them light. So it's nice because what you can do is now prime your whole system to increase your blood flow, to increase the firing of your nervous system, to tell your brain like we're ready to go and get focused here and like dial in that motor control, that mind muscle connection. So the warmup prepares your muscles and joints and whole body communication to optimize your performance when you're ready to go at it. So that's also why movement, specific warmups are so much more effective than just a general warmup. And then just jumping into the lift is to activate those neural pathways right, and the signal cascades all of that. So we just talked about all right.

Philip Pape: 26:06

So bottom line here, I think I covered everything I wanted to regarding warmups. Basically, the warmup is an important thing. It's not just increasing your temperature to getting loose, right, it's getting ready and getting feedback and diagnostic. It's not breaking a sweat, it's, you know, booting up that whole system so that you can hit it hard with the lift and do it safely and avoid injury. And the warmup should be individualized, just like your training program. It should be just like your goals. It it should be just like your goals. It should be intelligent, like the approach you take with everything else in the gym.

Philip Pape: 26:42

It is part of your training program, that's it. Whether it has to be pre-programmed for you, that's up to you and how much precision you want there. Some coaches will do that. Some people like to pre log what their warmup is going to look like. I don't think that's a bad idea when you're getting started, just to kind of take the thinking out of it when you get into the gym. And they're not a waste of time at all, as long as you don't waste time, right, they're not a waste of time unless you waste time. Unless you waste time is what I think I said. Right, it's, it's intentional and it gives you valuable information about how you are functioning and then you can pay attention to it and then adjust. That's it. Then you can go after PRs, then you can have healthy joints, then you can have safe lifting, then you're gonna feel confident, then you're gonna get the gains, and all because you took a few minutes to do this the right way.

Philip Pape: 27:30

All right, if you enjoyed this episode, I wanted to mention episode 234, which was from a while ago. It's called Never Fall Off Track Again with your Fitness or Fat Loss. It's about risk management principles, because I think warming up is a really solid risk management strategy, and that episode talked even more about risk management for everything that we do. So it's episode 234. I'll include the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, in lifting, proper initialization prevents system failures and malfunctions. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

The Day Weight Loss Changed Forever | Ep 350

Get your free custom nutrition plan (exclusive to podcast listeners) when you join Wits & Weights Physique University for just $27/month

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There was a day when everything we thought we knew about losing weight got turned upside down.

For decades, the advice was simple: eat less, move more.

But then scientists started asking why weight loss always seemed to get harder over time, and what they discovered changed everything.

This landmark Episode 350 explores the paradigm shift that revolutionized our understanding of metabolism, fat loss, and why 95% of people regain lost weight.

Main Takeaways:

• Your body doesn't just passively lose weight, it actively fights back by slowing metabolism and increasing hunger within 2-3 weeks of dieting

• The shift from moral food judgments to flexible, data-driven nutrition revolutionized sustainable fat loss

• Three game-changing strategies emerged: macro tracking as a foundation, working with (not against) metabolic adaptation, and strength training as metabolic insurance

• This scientific revolution changed how we view our bodies, from broken machines needing punishment to intelligent adaptive systems responding to our lifestyle signals

Episode Mentioned:

• Fat Loss vs. Weight Loss

Timestamps:

0:01 - The day everything changed about weight loss
4:30 - Why the "eat less, move more" approach failed
8:47 - How your body fights back: the hormone cascade
10:47 - The rise of flexible dieting and evidence-based coaching
12:29 - Key people who changed the game
14:37 - From food restriction to food awareness
19:35 - 3 game-changing strategies from the research

When Fat Loss Stopped Being About Willpower

The Old Rules That Never Worked

For decades the advice was simple. Eat less, move more, repeat. If the scale stopped moving, eat even less and move even more. And if that didn’t work, the blame was on you. You just weren’t trying hard enough.

But the truth is, most people were trying. They were tracking, restricting, and grinding themselves down, only to regain the same weight over and over. That old model ignored what your body is actually doing when you try to lose weight.

The Day the Science Changed

In the early 2000s, researchers started measuring what was really happening during weight loss. They placed people in metabolic chambers and discovered that after a few weeks in a deficit, the body fights back.

• Your metabolism slows beyond what the math predicts.

• Hunger hormones skyrocket while fullness hormones plummet.

• Your nervous system subconsciously reduces movement.

It isn’t a broken metabolism. It is a protective adaptation. Your body is doing what it evolved to do — defend itself from a perceived shortage of energy.

Why This Matters for You

If you have ever cut calories, done more cardio, and hit a plateau, this explains why. Your body adapts to extreme restriction. Pushing harder only accelerates that adaptation. You burn out, eat more, and often regain with even more body fat than before.

Once this science surfaced, coaches and researchers stopped blaming people and started building new approaches around how the body actually works.

The New Approach to Sustainable Fat Loss

Instead of moralizing food choices or following rigid lists, flexible dieting emerged. You track your intake within guardrails, eat foods you enjoy, and use data instead of guilt. It is not a “diet” in the old sense. It is a framework that allows you to:

• Hit protein goals to keep and build muscle

• Balance carbs and fats for energy and performance

• Include foods you love without sabotage

At the same time, we started planning maintenance phases, diet breaks, and periods to build strength and muscle so that your metabolism stays resilient and your hormones stay supported.

Three Game-Changing Strategies

Track with Awareness

Tracking macros (or a similar system) gives you clarity on what you eat without banning foods. You learn how to adjust nutrients to fit your goals rather than relying on guesswork or rules that do not apply to your life.

Work With Your Metabolism

Instead of a crash diet, use smaller deficits, planned maintenance phases, and recovery periods. This reduces the impact of metabolic adaptation and makes fat loss sustainable.

Train to Keep Muscle

Strength training is the insurance policy for your metabolism. It signals your body to hold on to muscle during a deficit and builds new muscle when you are ready to eat more. More muscle improves insulin sensitivity, glucose disposal, and how your body responds to food.

Your Body Is Not Broken

For the first time in decades, we stopped seeing weight loss as punishment and started seeing the body as an adaptive system. Your body is not fighting you out of spite. It is protecting you. When you work with that system instead of against it, fat loss becomes something you can achieve and keep for life.

If you have been trapped in the cycle of losing and regaining the same pounds, this is your wake-up call. It is not about eating as little as possible. It is about creating a plan that respects your physiology, supports your metabolism, and fits into your life.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

There was a day when everything we thought we knew about losing weight got turned upside down. For decades, the advice was simple Eat less, move more. If you hit a plateau, eat even less and move even more. And if that didn't work, well, you just weren't trying hard enough. But then scientists started asking a different question. Instead of blaming people for their failures, they started studying why weight loss always seemed to get harder over time. What they discovered changed everything. They found that your body isn't just passively losing weight. It is actively fighting back, slowing your metabolism, cranking up your hunger and defending every pound you're trying to lose. Today you'll learn exactly when this shift happened, why it matters for your own fat loss journey and the three game-changing strategies that emerged from this research that can finally help you lose fat and keep it off.

Philip Pape: 0:58

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host certified nutrition coach, philip Pape, and today we're exploring one of the most important paradigm shifts in the history of weight loss science, and what better topic for our landmark 350th episode? I love history and understanding where the modern thinking came from over time, and today's episode isn't just another basic mechanics or fat loss or calories in, calories out episode. This is a story of how a handful of researchers completely rewrote what we know about fat loss, about metabolism, and why so many people struggle to keep the weight off and, more importantly, how you can use this knowledge to break free from that cycle that we're so used to, that cycle of losing and regaining the same 20 pounds over and over again. Now, if you've been nodding along today thinking, yeah, that's exactly what I need to fix, then don't just listen, please. I want you to implement the information. I want you to build your system that works for you. And if you want a little extra help with that, that's what we do inside Wits and Weights Physique University, where we give you all the tools, the methods, the system to train smarter, to eat with clarity, to stop second guessing yourself and really quicken that process. Not a quick fix, not fast weight loss, but get to what works for you efficiently. We don't want to burn you out. We just want to give you a framework so that you can look like you train, look like you lift, feel confident doing it. We just relaunched it. It's $27 a month If you join now using the exclusive link for podcast listeners in the show notes. I'm going to throw in a custom nutrition plan for free and build that out for you.

Philip Pape: 2:44

All right, let's start with the old model, when simple seemed like the answer regarding fat loss. Let's go back to the 90s and early 2000s. Now, I know that doesn't seem like that long ago, but that's sort of when a lot of the big shifts started to happen. When you look back in the history, it took a while, it took decades of research to even get us to that point. But around this time the 90s, early 2000s the weight loss world was, I'll say, simple in terms of how it was marketed Energy, balance calories in calories out, create a deficit of 3,500 calories for the week and lose a pound of fat. Eat clean, avoid junk food, do your cardio, do your running and the weight comes off. And if it stops working for you, if you hit a plateau, then you're probably not working hard enough. You're either cheating on your diet, or you're not tracking your food, or you're not working hard enough. And the solution is still the same. Hey, the principle is you've got to cut calories to be in that deficit, you've got to add more movement to increase how much you burn, and one of the best ways to do that is just eliminate this food group or that food group or use a point system or use some clearly delineated set of rules based on what foods you ate, and it made a lot of sense. It sold a lot of books.

Philip Pape: 3:59

I was on that train for a long time and as much as thermodynamics and basic energy math do work, that is the very end of the root cause chain of why we have issues. The energy balance. Just because it's a fact of nature doesn't mean we can take that back and say, okay, great, I'm just going to, I'm going to cut calories and remove more. It's going to solve the problem because everything is interconnected. And that's one of the major problems with this thinking is that people would do this.

Philip Pape: 4:30

You would start strong in a diet Like I'm going to diet on Monday, I'm going to, I'm going to lose weight, I'm going to just crank up the movement, I'm going to go on that treadmill, I'm going to cut calories. And then you hit a wall. The scale stops moving, even though you're eating even less, even less than you think was humanly possible or for your size or your age or your weight. Right, we understand this language right. I should be able to lose weight at this level of calories. But I'm not right. You're exhausted, you're moody, it hits your energy. You feel like you're always dieting. You can't sustain that extreme restriction. And then what happens? Well, what do you go back to? You go back to what you're doing before, or you just eat more, even if you are trying to restrict foods, and the weight comes flooding back, often few extra pounds as a bonus, more body fat, your physique looks even worse even at the same weight, et cetera, et cetera.

Philip Pape: 5:17

And what got me thinking about this topic recently? Because if you guys listen to Wits and Weights for a while, while you know I've covered body fat overshooting and the five percent of people who actually maintain their weight and fat loss versus weight loss. But I wanted to kind of put the whole history of it together here so you understand the chain of where we got to today and why I even created my podcast and why I personally finally found success in my 40s when it comes to fat loss. And I thought about this recently because a client told me, you know, she's been stuck in this cycle for 15 years and it's the same story I always hear and I don't mean to belittle what the clientele, if anything, I'm trying to suggest that we've all been there. So many of us have that common story of 15 years losing the same 25 pounds, regaining it, starting over with an even more restrictive approach.

Philip Pape: 6:05

Then you exacerbate it with age, with stress, with okay, now it's my hormones, or menopause, and you think it's your problem, right? Or it's unique to you, or you cannot possibly, without starving yourself, get the result that you want. And that's what the old model teaches us that hey, if the system didn't work, it's your fault, right? You don't have the willpower, or you're cheating on your calorie intake. I see this all the time on Instagram, right? The first thing is, oh, you're probably not tracking accurately and you know what. There's probably some truth with that, but the vast majority of people I talk to they're informed, they're educated, they're intelligent, they've listened to the show, they've read stuff, they may even be tracking their macros and their calories and no, they know what they're eating and still it's not working for them. So, is it the discipline? Is it the consistency? Is it all these things we talk about you know, when I have guests and everything else? Or what if it's the system itself that was flawed. So that leads us to what I'll call the, the, the first scientific revolution of this century.

Philip Pape: 7:04

In the early 2000s, researchers at Columbia University started asking a different question. Instead of assuming people were doing something wrong, they decided to study what was happening inside their bodies during weight loss. So we have Dr Rudy Label and Dr Michael Rosenbaum, who conducted studies between 2001 and 2008, took people, put them in metabolic chambers, measured exactly how many calories they were burning before, during and after weight loss, and a lot of their findings upended things. And it kind of shocked people, and you know we take this for granted today, but this stuff wasn't really well understood until the last couple decades. What they found is, when people lost weight, their metabolism didn't just drop by the amounts you would expect from being smaller which, by the way, it does. It does do that. Okay, if you're not even aware of that the fact that when you lose weight, you're going to burn fewer calories just because you're smaller it actually dropped way more than that An additional 200 to 500 calories per day beyond what the math predicted Right. And it's because your body was basically hitting the brakes on burning calories, because you were depriving it of resources, right? We understand this now as metabolic adaptation or adaptive thermogenesis, and it gets even more fascinating when you look at how it happens, because the researchers found the metabolic slowdown happens very quickly, within two to three weeks of starting a diet. We know this later on, when they look at thyroid, how it can drop by an average of something like 6% in a 500-calorie deficit, and it happens very quickly, and so it's not just about burning fewer calories, it's really the body going into this coordinated defense mode with your hormone cascade.

Philip Pape: 8:47

Let's start with leptin. Leptin is your satiety hormone, right. It keeps you full. Well, that drops massively. Now you're constantly hungry. Grelin, your hunger hormone that goes way up and that makes everything you look at look delicious. Your thyroid hormone I just mentioned T3, drops. That slows your metabolism. That's like the metabolic regulator. Your nervous system, even down regulates, and that makes you fidget less and move less. Your non-exercise activity thermogenesis goes down unconsciously, without even realizing it.

Philip Pape: 9:15

So this isn't about broken metabolisms. This is about what some people call survival mode. I don't like that term. I think it's not really scientific or accurate. But you kind of get the idea, though, that your body's doing what it evolved to do, and that's protect you from what it's perceives as a lack of energy, which you could say is like starvation, right, except we're not at quite at that point yet. It's just a down regulation overall in your resources and your calorie burning, down to the cellular level via hormones.

Philip Pape: 9:48

And, by the way, as a quick aside, I mentioned our Physique University. One of the things we love to do in there is give you education on metabolic adaptation. We've done live calls the replays are in there in perpetuity about, hey, when my expenditure, when my metabolism does drop, what the heck is going on and how can I tell what that might be for me. Because we're not going to be going and doing blood work and analyzing our hormones and everything during a diet. No, we are going to want to understand the inputs and outputs and what things we have control over, what things we don't, what things we unconsciously have control over but we don't realize we're losing control like the fidgeting, and what can we do about it? Right? So, just just as a quick aside, I mentioned physique university. We've just relaunched with a new lower price tier. It used to be 87 a month, now it's 27 a month, and I have an exclusive link in the podcast show notes where, if you use that link, I'm going to give you the nutrition plan for free which normally is an add-on and that'll help you get there and start to deal with all of this stuff with metabolic adaptation.

Philip Pape: 10:47

All right, so let's continue with the story here. Right, as metabolic adaptation research started to explode in the scientific community, a new approach started emerging on the practical side that was no longer being pushed by the big diet companies and the big book publishers right, you think, like Weight Watchers, for example, back in the day, atkins. Right, there's entire ecosystems built around these very influential brands, but the new approaches or methods were coming from researchers and coaches who are paying attention to the science and applying it. It definitely wasn't coming from the healthcare industry. We know to this day we have a huge dearth in nutrition and training education among healthcare practitioners. Hopefully that will improve.

Philip Pape: 11:32

But on the ground, boots on the ground, coaches, researchers, trainers, and so here's where we get the idea of flexible dieting, and I know what you're thinking Like if you've never heard that term before. You're thinking, oh, is that just another diet Like the flexible diet? No, flexible dieting is not a diet, it's just a philosophy based on being a little bit more precise and having ranges and guardrails, but eating whatever you want within that very flexible structure, right. In other words, you can still have restraint and control and knowledge about what you're eating, but you don't have to exclude foods. You don't have to judge foods. You can eat for your goals in a much more flexible way, but you still have to have guardrails in place, which is an important concept, because sometimes people think of flexible diet as just eat whatever you want. No, that's not what it is. There's still a level of control and Dr Lane Norton pretty much everybody who listens to this probably knows about Dr Lane Norton.

Philip Pape: 12:29

He started popularizing concepts that we talk about a lot today, like reverse dieting, diet breaks, fat loss, body fat overshooting. Eric Helms and the team at 3DMJ love those guys. Eric's been on the show a few times. They began teaching evidence-based physique coaching. Eric partnered with Andy Morgan and wrote the muscle and strength pyramids, which I think the new revision is coming out very soon, so I'm excited for that. It's one of the books that changed my life back in the year 2000, or I mean 2020, I should say 2020. I'm not that old 2020.

Philip Pape: 13:00

Alan Aragon, you know wrote basically came up the term flexible dieting and a lot of it came out of the bodybuilding forums where they talked about if it fits your macros right, which is kind of a bastardization or a subset of flexible dieting, because it's not just about that. And coaches like Sohee Lee started combining behavioral psychology with macro tracking so that you could say, look, we can have tracking, we can track our calories and macros, we can be precise and have flexibility in how we do that and combine it with behavioral psychology, with habit formation, with self-efficacy, with self-motivation theory all of that stuff combined together to kind of get out of that restriction binge cycle where you don't have the control, where you are just cutting and you don't have any skill development. Right, you can follow keto and probably get some pretty good results if you know why you're doing it and you carry those principles forward. But that's not what happens. People follow carnivore, keto and fasting and they're basically following a set of rules that may apply in the short term to get a specific goal, but then they don't know what to do afterward. They don't develop skills from that. Why are we doing this? You know I can use intermittent fasting or time-restricted feeding with myself or clients in a very intentional way, knowing why we do it. We're not doing it to lose weight. We're doing it to control our schedule for our meals, for example, or to control our hunger signals. We're not doing it to lose weight. And so, anyway, all of this really cool research that was coming out at the practical level, which we still carry forward to today in this ethos that I espouse as part of wits and weights, is what made the approach revolutionary.

Philip Pape: 14:37

Instead of eliminating foods, you just track them, you just get awareness, you measure, you track. It's like a budget for your food. It's actually a pretty simple concept that, for some reason, people get really hung up with being, you know, obsessive or too much or too hard, and it's actually very, very simple and easy to do and you can make it flexible for you. So, instead of like eating clean, which sounds simple on its surface but in reality, you're making hard choices every day in situations that are out of your control, like restaurants and travel, and it just gets so stressful and fatiguing mentally, instead of that, you just have guardrails. Okay, I'm going to try to hit this much protein, stay within my fats and carbs, get some fiber and micros and I've got the whole plethora of the bounty of amazing animal and vegetable. You know animal and plant products to choose from, based on all the other things that I care about, like my social life, my ethnic. You know eating cuisine my how delicious it is, my recipes that I like right, where you're not constrained anymore by someone else's list. And so, instead of suffering through endless restriction style diets, you plan strategic periods, periodization periods of higher calories to be fueled and energized and nourished for your lifting and your muscle growth, and lower calories to release some stored energy in the terms of fat loss, and doing it while other lifestyle practices are in place which are a little bit outside the scope of today's episode, but not completely, because we can never get away from the fact that you have to be resistance, training and being an active person for all of this to work together really well for your health.

Philip Pape: 16:18

But the key here is that the focus shifted from moral judgments about food to data about food, no more good and bad foods. And, by the way, I've heard podcasters and some that I really respect, some whose probably shows I'm probably going on soon, so hopefully I frame this the right way Say both sides of this equation. Oh no, but there are good and bad. Let's stop saying that there are no good and bad foods. There are bad, there's processed and junk food, blah, blah, blah. And then others who you know will say like absolutely you shouldn't label foods good or bad because of the moral judgment.

Philip Pape: 16:48

I think that dietary patterns, everything you eat as a whole, can be healthy or not healthy, and can serve your goals or not serve your goals. But, like a Snickers bar, itself has no label associated with it other than here's what it contains, here's how it's made, here's what it does in your body. Now you go and make your informed choice of whether that is good or bad for you. That is my opinion. But at the same time, I understand that we want to classify foods in a way that bucketizes them for us. So, for example, I'm going to put a Snickers bar in the indulgent, highly processed, ultra palatable treats part of my diet, which means it's going to be relegated to a very, very small set of situations and a very small percentage, right? So if you looked at my overall dietary pattern, you would say, okay, you're kind of treating that Snickers like a pariah over here, and isn't that mean it's bad? Well, yes, except it's not bad in the sense that I feel bad if I eat it because I've chosen to eat it. Because it's bad. Well, yes, except it's not bad in the sense that I feel bad if I eat it because I've chosen to eat it, because it's within that context. That makes sense. I hope that makes sense. So, instead of it being a moral judgment, you're just picking foods that fit your goals and getting rid of foods that don't. That's really it, and there's many goals. I acknowledge that not just gaining and losing weight, but also your health and your blood sugar right and taste preferences and like avoiding things that maybe you would binge on, et cetera.

Philip Pape: 18:17

Now I remember when I first started implementing this back in with clients. What was that Like four or five years ago? Where I quickly realized that this wasn't a physical thing. Yes, it's physical on its surface, but it is far more psychological. For the first time when someone does this, when someone shifts their approach from the moral judgment to the flexibility, people feel like they have control. Now that's liberating, right. The food is not controlling them. Now you can go out to dinner with friends and still hit your goals, or you can plan around it. You can still include foods you enjoy without being guilty about it or feeling shame over it, like that's the power in all of this. So we went to flexible dieting and all the fun things that come around that, with periodization, with meal timing, with refeeds and fat loss and all that fun stuff. And then what came out of this revolution which, again, is pretty recent it's only the last 15 years or so we get some fat loss strategies that help us approach this in a much more liberating and effective way, and I've covered this ad nauseum on other episodes, but I'm just going to give you three of my favorite takeaways here.

Philip Pape: 19:35

The first one, from all of this science, from all of this evolution of the research, is that basically, tracking macros is a good foundation for this flexible way of eating. Now I'm not going to. I have some more things to say about it, but before I do and you think, oh, but what about intuitive eating? And what about people who don't want to track macros but they want to track other things? I think macros are a proxy right. They're a proxy for the types of energy you're going to put in your mouth that support your goals. And there are other ways to track that are proxies for macros. So I'm not excluding completely the ability to do, say, portion-based tracking. I'm going to track these portions of fats, protein, carbs it's still macros or micronutrient-based tracking. You know what the micros still get up to the level of macros, no matter which way you cut it right. And so what I'm trying to compare or contrast macro tracking to is really the alternative of not tracking it but instead excluding foods. Right, and we're not talking about obsessively counting to the gram if that is not appropriate for you, which, by the way, the research shows that tracking doesn't make you obsessive. People who are inclined to be obsessive may exacerbate that with certain forms of tracking, but it has nothing to do with the tracking itself.

Philip Pape: 20:50

But when we talk about tracking and awareness of food now we can be very strategic about targeting our nutrients and I say nutrients to capture macro and micronutrients. It's basically all the energy sources coming in. That includes protein, where we want a certain minimum to preserve and build muscle mass. Right, we want to hold on to muscle mass during fat loss. We want to build it while we're building. We know that it keeps us full, adequate fats for hormone production, carbs for energy, performance and sanity. And then you drill down to the micros. We need fiber for satiety, for a bunch of health reasons, all the micronutrients, of course. And when you track your food, your macros, whatever you want to say that you're tracking, you are effectively monitoring the quality of your nutrition, where you can change the levers up and down right, not based on cutting out whole foods, whole, entire food groups, but by shifting the balance of different foods that you like to eat. So that's really important as a foundation.

Philip Pape: 21:53

The second strategy or game changer from this revolution is metabolic adaptation and understanding it and understanding how to work with it and not against it, like acknowledging that it exists, that you can't do anything about it existing and therefore we have to control what we do to work around it to lessen its impact. Right, because, for example, simply eating in a smaller deficit will lessen the severity of the metabolic adaptation, although you're making the trade-off of taking longer to lose the fat. So it's understanding those trade-offs. It's using planned diet breaks, whether it's a two-day refeed, weeks of eating at maintenance or months at maintenance, or even going into muscle building phases understanding that that is a break from dieting as well to support your hormones, to give you a psychological break from any form of restraint or restriction or deprivation. You know, even if it is a calorie deficit with flexible dieting, you're still restricting something. Right, you are restricting the amount you eat and that can give you a psychological fatigue. And then it means, when you are done, you know how to sustain that, you know how to recover right.

Philip Pape: 23:03

Reverse dieting is a famous term or a popular term in the industry. I don't like reverse dieting, I call it recovery dieting, because we use macro factor, where you know what your metabolism is at the end of a diet and therefore you can recover very quickly without worrying about gaining extra fat. So it means doing that strategically after a fat loss phase to increase your calories and with the knowledge that you know how much to eat now to maintain and recover. And then, third, we finally understood with all of this data that strength training was a big missing piece for everyone and notice, I didn't even talk about it the whole episode until just now. But it is your metabolic insurance, both the active training and the building of strength and muscle. And the only way you're going to lose fat when you're losing weight is to preserve and build muscle through training and that supports your metabolism and that also makes all of this other stuff work more effectively and efficiently and more aligned with what you're trying to do.

Philip Pape: 24:03

Not just having muscle to burn calories. That's a tiny piece of it. It's the training stimulus that tells your body that building and holding muscle is important. Then it cascades to all the things we've been talking about on the show recently, like reducing inflammation, increasing insulin sensitivity, allowing you to better dispose of glucose so you can eat more carbs to build more muscle, and so on, and to kind of take all this information into something that's, I think, very powerful about how we look at our bodies. Right, it didn't just change how we talk about weight loss and I would argue it still hasn't changed it in everybody's mind. Only a small percentage of people really get it right now, and that's the purpose of wits and weights is to really spread that message, and I hope you share this podcast with others too, so that they can start learning and get those aha moments of oh my goodness, wow, you're right, it's not about scale, weight and weight loss, about all these other things. It's incredible.

Philip Pape: 24:58

For the first time in decades, we stopped treating the human body like this broken machine that needed to be fixed and punished, right. That's very prevalent in the 80s and 90s this ethos of punish and sweat and sore and pain, right? Some of you that are younger may not even have seen that, but it's still in our culture. Instead, think of your body like an intelligent adaptive system that responds to the signals we give it through our food, our training and our lifestyle. It's beautiful, it's a wonderful thing. It's why I like applying this engineering lens to the body, and everyone we work with whether that's one-on-one or in Physique University who applies this systemic approach and is patient doing it, will lose the fat that they're trying to lose. They're going to keep it off and they're going to keep it off as long as they want. Many of them, of course, go ahead and they say you know what I want? To build muscle now, and then they get into a whole new phase of growth, and then your body and you are on the same team and that's a real victory here, right? It's not about weight loss. It's about changing your relationship with food, which is something you interact with multiple times every day for your entire life. It's so important to being human, your body itself, which is the thing you're with all the time and the entire process of transformation so that you work with your physiology.

Philip Pape: 26:14

So I thought it'd be cool to kind of take a walk down the memory lane here today with this episode and talk about this. You know what happened quietly in research labs and practical coaching sessions, as these studies and the client transformations occurred over years and years and people stopped asking you know, why are we all failing and so horrible as people and awful at doing things and sticking with things? And instead, why is the system not working for us? Are we just fundamentally not doing this the right way? And I think that is where it got us to a better understanding of sustainable fat loss that we talk about today. And the beautiful thing about this revolution is it's still happening. It's still happening. That's why we need podcasts like this to start to drown out the ridiculous noise that's still stuck in the old world, because every day, people are discovering they don't have to choose between enjoying food and achieving their goals. I still see so many people jumping into carnivore.

Philip Pape: 27:09

I'm like, guys, what are you doing, unless you're using it as an elimination diet to see what doesn't work well for you and then adding the food back in? What are you doing? You don't need to do that. What's the point? There's no need to do that right. Just have a flexible diet and lift weights and do the things we talk about. Be consistent, for sure. You don't need to be perfect. The data is going to beat the emotion, and working with your body is going to be way more beneficial than wondering why you're broken and trying to fight this through more restriction.

Philip Pape: 27:41

All right, if you enjoyed this episode, I think you should check out a classic episode. I'm going to call it classic. It's episode 104, called fat loss versus weight loss. I think it's a perfect follow-up to today's discussion. It goes deeper into why these distinctions matter and then some practical strategies to prioritize fat loss over weight loss. So I would pick that as your next episode, episode 104, fat loss versus weight loss. I'll include the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember the day everything changed wasn't when we discovered new ways to restrict ourselves. It was when we finally learned to respect the incredible adaptive machine we call our body. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Why Women Over 40 Don’t NEED to Lift Heavy to Fight Osteosarcopenia (Megan Dahlman) | Ep 349

Want to build muscle, lose fat, and train smarter? ⁠⁠⁠Join the new Physique University for just $27/month⁠⁠⁠ and get your custom nutrition plan FREE (limited time)

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Is your doctor telling you to “lift heavy” but you don’t even know where to start? Wondering how to build strong bones without ending up hurt or overwhelmed? Curious if weighted vests actually do anything for bone health?

I brought Megan Dahlman back to the show to answer these questions and more. Megan is a strength coach who specializes in helping women over 40 build muscle, improve mobility, and fight back against a condition called osteosarcopenia. We talked about the risks of jumping into heavy lifting the wrong way and how to progress smartly and safely from bodyweight to weights.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:50 – What is osteosarcopenia?
6:38 – How muscles and bones work together
11:28 – Why “lift heavy” can backfire
18:21 – The best place for beginners to start
23:11 – The truth about weighted vests
28:20 – What’s the minimum effective dose?
36:39 – Should you train for power too?
42:04 – Sample training structures that work
51:55 – Home vs. gym: how to decide
55:50 – Where to start with Megan's program

Episode resources:

• Training program – Jumpstart 30

• Youtube: @vigeofit

• Instagram: @megandahlman 

• Facebook: @vigeofit 

• Website: vigeofit.com 

Build Stronger Bones and Muscles Without “Heavy” Lifting

Maybe your doctor just told you to start lifting heavy weights to prevent bone loss. That advice is well‑intentioned, but for many women over 40 it feels unrealistic. You might barely be able to do a push‑up, you may not have been inside a gym in years, and suddenly the expectation is to start hoisting a barbell.

Here is the truth: you do not have to start with heavy lifting to fight bone loss and muscle loss. There is a smarter, safer way to get the benefits of resistance training without injury or overwhelm.

Osteosarcopenia explained in simple terms

Osteosarcopenia is what happens when you lose bone and muscle at the same time. These two systems are linked. Muscles pull on bones when you move, and that stress signals the body to build and maintain bone density.

If you do not have healthy muscle tissue, your bones are not getting that signal. It is one reason women over 40, especially in perimenopause and beyond, face a higher risk of fractures and weakness. The good news is that you can reverse this trend with the right training plan.

Why “just lift heavy” is not enough information

You may have heard that bones need heavy loads to stimulate growth. That is partly true, but it is missing context. Heavy loading on day one is risky if your joints, tendons, and movement patterns are not ready. It can lead to tendonitis, bursitis, or even more serious injuries that sideline you completely. Your body needs to learn correct movement mechanics first. Heavy lifting is a tool, but it is not the first step.

Start with bodyweight movements to build a foundation

If you cannot yet perform a squat or hinge correctly with your own body weight, you have no business loading a barbell on your back. Start by mastering the basic patterns: squats, hip hinges, push‑ups, and rows. Use a mirror or film yourself with your phone to see if your form matches what you think you are doing. Even athletes with years of experience are surprised when they see their movement on video and discover mistakes. Do not train bad technique into your body. Take the time to get it right.

Build consistency before you worry about intensity

The research and my experience with hundreds of women show that two 30‑minute strength sessions per week is enough to start seeing improvement in bone density and muscle mass. The key is not perfection but consistency. You do not need an hour‑long plan with ten different exercises. Start with two or three movements you can do well, repeat them each week, and build momentum. On the other days, stay active with walking or light mobility work.

How and when to add load

When you can perform bodyweight movements smoothly and with control, it is time to add resistance. Dumbbells, kettlebells, bands, or machines are all excellent options. Choose what feels accessible and safe for you. Use loads that challenge you in the 6 to 12 rep range. The last couple of reps in each set should feel hard but still look good on camera or in the mirror. Progress comes from adding a little more load, or a few more reps, over time—not from jumping to the heaviest weight you can lift.

Multi‑joint movements are your best friend

For bone health, multi‑joint movements like squats, deadlifts, presses, and rows deliver far more benefit than isolation exercises. These big patterns engage more muscle mass and send stronger signals to your bones. They also translate directly into daily life—getting up from a chair, picking up groceries, climbing stairs—so you feel stronger and more capable day to day.

The truth about weighted vests and walking

Weighted vests and rucking are popular right now. They can be fun, and they do slightly increase the load on your body. But research shows that walking with a weighted vest is nowhere near as effective as resistance training for bone density. If you enjoy it and it gets you moving, great. Just do not assume it replaces lifting.

Build progressively and train smart

Your body needs time to adapt. You might start with bodyweight circuits for a month or two, then progress to loaded movements, and eventually work up to heavier sets or even some explosive power work like medicine ball slams or box step‑ups. Every step of the way, focus on good form and steady progress.

You can do this!

You do not need to be a competitive lifter to protect your bones and muscles. You do not need fancy equipment or a gym membership. Start small, start at home if that removes a barrier, and build from there.

The most important thing you can do is show up consistently, train movements you can do well, and challenge yourself a little more over time. That is how you fight osteosarcopenia and stay strong for decades to come.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Your doctor just told you that you need to start lifting heavy weights to prevent bone loss, but you can barely do a push-up and haven't been in a gym in years. If that sounds familiar, then today my returning guest, the amazing Megan Dahlman, is going to help you by revealing why this well-meaning medical advice is actually setting women up for failure and injury. You'll learn all about osteosarcopenia and why it's becoming an epidemic among women over 40, as well as surprising truths about weighted vests and other strategies that are often marketed for menopause. Most importantly, you're going to learn the minimum effective dose of resistance training that actually works for beginners, without the intimidation or overwhelm that keeps so many women stuck on the sidelines, even though they absolutely need to strengthen those bones and muscles. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing a critical health issue that's flying under the radar for millions of women.

Philip Pape: 1:14

My guest is returning to the show for her third appearance Megan Dahlman, a certified strength and conditioning specialist with over 17 years of experience coaching women over 40. You might remember her from past episodes where we discussed midlife belly fat and reducing back pain and joint inflammation. I'll throw those links in the show notes. Megan holds a degree in exercise science and specializes in helping women navigate the physical challenges of midlife with sustainable strength training. Pain-free mobility that's her specialty. She has an amazing YouTube channel on these topics and today she's here to discuss osteosarcopenia. Osteosarcopenia a condition of simultaneous bone loss and muscle loss that affects over a quarter of women over 50. You're going to learn why the standard advice of just lift heavy is missing nuance and context and you might be surprised to hear that on this show, especially if you've never trained before how to build a foundation of strength safely and progressively. And, of course, what the science says about the minimum effective dose needed to protect your bones and muscles as you age. Megan, my friend, welcome back to the show.

Megan Dahlman: 2:23

Philip, it is so good to be here. I love chatting with you. I feel like we always get into some phenomenal conversations, whether it's going down rabbit holes, I always feel like we have so much fun chatting together.

Philip Pape: 2:35

We do. I mean, that's why we chatted for so long before we even hit record. Today we have a good time and listeners are going to learn a ton today I know I am as well and let's just start right off the bat defining what the heck we're talking about when we say osteosarcopenia.

Megan Dahlman: 2:50

Well, this is what is sometimes called the hazardous duo. This is the hazardous duo, so it's kind of a newly described syndrome that really highlights the fact that your muscles and bones are a unit. They don't work in isolation, they go together. You can't have a healthy bone without healthy muscle. You can't have a healthy muscle without bone to be there supporting it. So it's kind of recognizing that muscles and bones coexist, and so osteosarcopenia is the degradation of that muscle bone unit, and so these are two chronic musculoskeletal conditions that are associated with aging, and they're both accelerated in menopausal women, which is a little nerve-wracking.

Philip Pape: 3:43

Yeah, it's nerve-wracking, especially the degree to which that happens due to the differences in the sexes and the hormones, and we should get into that. So this is interesting. Osteosarcopenia do you know off the top of your head? Is this term referred to in the literature, or is this a fun portmanteau that we're using?

Megan Dahlman: 3:57

You know, literature is starting to refer to it because if we go back to about 2017, that's where this word starts to pop up and some of them are using it in slight. They might say sarco, osteoporosis or osteosarcopenia, but we're starting to see experts and researchers clump them together because the more research they're doing, the more they're realizing like these are so closely tied for both biomechanical and biochemical reasons, that we kind of have to have them both in the conversation always, and so my hope is that we start to see this term be more as a syndrome, because I think, especially with doctors and prescribers and clinicians that are helping people with one thing or the other, whether it's sarcopenia or osteoporosis if we can start to show people like these things are really connected, I think we're going to get better outcomes.

Philip Pape: 4:57

Yeah, I totally agree, because you can't. Especially when someone asks about a lifting regimen or how do I support my aging, and we talk about muscles by themselves, you know you get a lot of sort of objections in the head like, well, I'm not trying to build muscles, I'm not trying to improve my physique, I'm not trying to maybe even get stronger Although we should all be trying to get stronger, in my opinion. And then when you say, well, what about bone density? Oh yeah, that's extremely important for me as a woman is bone density. You know, my mother had osteoporosis and everybody was on Bonivo when I was a kid and whatever, and it's like the connecting the two makes sense. And you mentioned both the biomechanics and I think you said hormones or what did?

Megan Dahlman: 5:36

you say Biochemical.

Philip Pape: 5:38

Right Chemical. So talk about that. Where's the interdependence between those Talk?

Megan Dahlman: 5:43

about that? Where's the interdependence between those? So mechanically, so when a muscle is used, when it's pulling against a bone, so when there's certain mechanical forces applied to the bone above a certain threshold okay, so there is a little bit of a threshold that you got to be above it can actually stimulate more bone synthesis in that area. That's why strength training is so magical, and I know we're going to get into that later but strength training pushes and pulls against the bone along the full length of the bone in multiple planes of motion, versus like just impact or vertical jumping type of stuff. You're really just creating impact along the bone in one vertical plane. So we want these mechanical forces to be pushing, pulling against the bone because all of those contact points or those attachment points on that bone, it will be stimulated to create more bone synthesis.

Megan Dahlman: 6:38

So that's the mechanical side of things. But then we also have this biochemical side. So there's some complex like endocrine mechanisms that are actually signaled when your muscles are loaded. So muscle loading induces this cascade of biochemical signals that are necessary for bone growth and remodeling, which is really key because of all you're ever doing is, you know, taking the bone evo or the osteoporosis supplement or whatever it might be, You're not getting the benefit of those muscle loading chemical signals that are necessary for bone growth and remodeling. So it's kind of all of these two things combined that creates a really healthy bone muscle unit.

Philip Pape: 7:31

That's really good. I'm going to be using that going forward, megan, because we talk about muscle being an endocrine organ and how. I think it's one of the less paid attention to organs. In fact, we know in medical training it's hardly, it's almost an afterthought compared to the other systems like cardiopulmonary systems and whatnot. Right Cardiac health, but not like muscle-centric medicine or health. But what you just said is that there are signals from the muscle that affects bone growth.

Megan Dahlman: 7:56

Yeah, and here's the craziest thing too. One more study I read said that in individuals with fractures so someone who gets a bone fracture let's say it's not an osteoporotic type of fracture, like they just break a bone somehow Healing times are quicker in those who have more muscle mass. This has been repeatedly demonstrated that the presence of healthy muscle tissue is a positive factor for fracture healing. Isn't that wild?

Philip Pape: 8:25

It is. It is wild. I mean, there are so many of these little surprises about muscle and how they translate to other systems. Even the act of training will send signals to fat cells and help you be more efficient and burn more fat and burn more calories, irrespective of how much muscle you have, even just the act of it.

Megan Dahlman: 8:44

Everything is communicating, nothing exists in its own organ. Like, your muscles are not a separate organ that you have to do something for your muscles and then your bones are this separate organ that you have to do something specific but, like everything, works together, collaboratively and communicates together all the time.

Philip Pape: 9:01

I feel like Eastern medicine has known this for a long time the way they discuss the body. So let's hit on some of the points you mentioned. The threshold for bone synthesis Is that like a percent of your max type threshold? We're talking about loading, or is there some other measurement for that?

Megan Dahlman: 9:16

This is hard to nail down. This is really. It's going to be relative to everybody, to each individual person. So really it's above whatever your baseline is of what your body does on a normal basis. So when we go into a training session, we're usually doing if we're following a good progressive training program we're usually going to be at or above a certain threshold.

Megan Dahlman: 9:41

Maybe not every single workout session, but frequently we're doing something, we're pushing the limits just a little bit, and that's the type of scenario that's going to stimulate significant amount of muscle and bone growth. But we know that even training below you know that progress threshold is still valuable. So it's not like every time you show up for a workout we're going to have to like be maxing out every single time in order to see positive benefits. That's not the case. But as long as the training is above basically sedentary levels, you're going to be seeing some great benefits. So as far as like this is the threshold, it's too inconclusive to say specifically what that threshold is and it's going to be different for each person in every workout situation too.

Philip Pape: 10:30

Yeah, and there's an overlap with the same things that drive your training for muscle growth anyway, in that you get two for one. You get two for one. We did an episode called strength versus hypertrophy you guys should definitely check that out where we talked about some actual numbers that seem to correlate with strength and muscle growth, and the bare minimum seemed to be 35% of your maximum, only because anything lighter than that it's like you could just go all day and it doesn't stress you, whereas 65% starts to affect your central nervous system and your strength. And I'm wondering where the bone development threshold is. And I ask that because, for example, dr Mike Isertil talked about. Somebody said what do you recommend for people over 50? And he's like well, I'd recommend big systemic lifts, fairly heavy, because of the bone density benefits. But we need to get into now, megan, what heavy means. We don't want to scare people away when doctors say just lift heavy. Let's get into that whole hot topic because that's a good segue for this.

Megan Dahlman: 11:28

I feel like whenever we hear lift heavy, that lands on two different types of ears. It lands on the people who are already lifting heavy and really enjoy it and they're like, yes, I'm already doing it, I've got great bones. And then that recommendation lands on the ears of people that are have only ever done cardio or walking or Pilates or yoga and they're scared and they don't know what to do. And there's really rarely anybody in between. And so when doctors prescribe lifting heavy, yes, okay, so bones and muscles do need some heavy load Like we were talking about that above a certain threshold to be able to stimulate this synthesis, this muscle growth and bone growth kind of simultaneously. But we have to consider that your body, like we said, nothing exists in a vacuum. Your bones and muscles don't exist in a vacuum, but also there are also, like discs in your spine, tendons and ligaments, the rest of her endocrine system, your inflammatory system that we're also having to contend with. So for particularly women in midlife that are already dealing with higher levels of inflammation, that can make your soft tissues, like those tendons and fascia and other soft tissues in your body, more sensitive to inflammation, jumping straight into lifting heavy can be extremely problematic if you don't approach it properly. This is where we get a lot of reports of suddenly I have plantar fasciitis or I've got elbow tendonitis out of the blue. I wanted to start lifting heavy and I don't know what to do. I had a phone call with a client a few weeks ago and she got put she this is the exact scenario. She saw her doctor. The doctor's like your bone numbers don't look good. You need to start lifting heavy. So she went home, hopped online, googled heavy lifting program for women. Found. Hopped online, googled heavy lifting program for women. Found a heavy lifting program. Had her lifting heavy overhead, she slipped three discs in her neck and dealt with migraines for the next four months.

Megan Dahlman: 13:43

No-transcript. A lot of these women and men might not have a background in strength training and understanding their body mechanics and understanding body control and how to do a basic body weight squat, let alone put a barbell on their back or have them do a deadlift, getting into a bent over position, which is essentially a deadlift into a hip hinge. It's really a technically complicated position if you've never been taught how to do that, and so if someone is gonna go into the gym and walk up to a barbell, they're not gonna know how to do it properly and they'll end up getting hurt. And so it's such a nuanced conversation where, yes, our end goal might be let's get you to the point where you are eventually lifting heavy for your bones. That doesn't mean that that's where you should start.

Philip Pape: 14:36

And you know what? I know we're talking about women here, but men it's the same thing.

Heather: 14:41

I will say, and I have personal experience.

Philip Pape: 14:43

You talk about form. I consider myself fairly athletic and I was in the physical therapy office the other day and you could see someone who is the opposite of that which I've heard called motor morons. No, no offense to the guy where he was being asked.

Megan Dahlman: 14:56

Okay that's what I like to say. There's a lack of body awareness and coordination.

Philip Pape: 15:02

Clumsy, yeah yeah, you know, athletically clumsy, and you'll give someone an instruction and without the guidance, they, they just can't get it right. Like he was being told to retract a scapula, like hold his elbows locked.

Megan Dahlman: 15:14

He's like I don't know what retract means, let alone what my scapula are.

Philip Pape: 15:17

Yeah, exactly and even when described the right way, he's like bending his elbows and everything. And so some people, even if they mean well, men or women, women are going to have that issue. And you're right, connective tissue is highly underspoken about with older individuals because they do get more pliable and sensitive. You talk about inflammation. Oh, I did a whole episode just about inflammation related to lifestyle, because that's usually what causes it, not food, you know, not eating seed oils, it's the whole lifestyle of chronic stress and sitting and things like that.

Philip Pape: 15:50

I recall myself having shoulder issues and I tried to get back to it too quickly with the heaviness because a little bit of ego, because I had been able to lift heavier, but at that point in my life I really needed to back it down and then progress there. And so what happened is, you know, all that stress on the tendons as I'm pressing, pressing, pressing, boom, I got bursitis. You know, a few weeks later and it's always a lag right, never does necessarily happen the next day. It takes a little while sometimes. So everything you're saying, people should listen up when we say heavy, like I think, yes, heavy relative to what you need to progress, per what Megan said earlier, but not so heavy with bad form, without guidance for your situation that you cause all of these issues.

Megan Dahlman: 16:32

So a hundred percent, a hundred percent, ease into it, always build up, like, ask yourself, where am I at right now? Like, sure, you might have a long training history. In the past. I've got a number of women that I work with that they, you know, used to do orange theory for a period of time or that one time that they had that CrossFit gym membership and we're doing that. And so 10 years later they're like I really need to get back to doing that and I want to just like hold them by the shoulders and shake them a little bit and say that's not where your body is right now.

Megan Dahlman: 17:06

So if you try to go back to that, those are all probably wonderful moves. Sure, maybe we could get there, maybe. But what does your body need right now? Where are you starting at now? Where's your conditioning level right now? Do we need to work on your technique? Do you have shoulder bursitis that we've got to deal with at the moment? First, like, where are you at right now? And you're, you hit the nail on the head when you said my ego, because that's usually the thing that gets in the in the way of doing the proper program that our body needs at this moment.

Philip Pape: 17:38

So get your ego aside and and do like train smart for where your body is right now so that leads to the natural question people, okay, what do I do if it's not CrossFit or 45, which it's not? It's not. I can tell you it's not. That adds its own stress and bad form and everything to speed and everything else. A woman in her forties or fifties, totally new to this. We don't know if she's a motor moron or not. Just kidding.

Philip Pape: 18:07

We all are kind of yeah, of course of course she could reach out to you, go check out your YouTube videos and do your program, but I mean principle wise what's a good place to start?

Megan Dahlman: 18:21

Body weight only, strength training moves. Just start by moving your own body through the basic moves Like learn how to do a squat properly. Do and start doing that. Get your knees familiar with squatting, your hips familiar, your ankles familiar with squatting. Not just one rep, but get them familiar with doing eight of them in a row. Do hip hinges. That's that deadlift action that we're talking about. Get familiar with that movement. It's going to start to train your hips, your glutes, your core in a collaborative way. Start to do some of these full body movements where you don't need any equipment that might be distracting the moment you try to hold on to something or even put a vest on or have some sort of equipment in the picture like a band, like it's just distracting and it's going to distract you from your own technique. I recommend having a mirror nearby or even setting up your phone to record yourself.

Megan Dahlman: 19:17

I did a workout with a friend over the weekend. They were visiting us and she was like do you want to work out together? I'm like when am I ever going to say no to that? So we worked out and I, I, I paused her a handful of times. She's not a trainer. So I paused her a handful of times, just getting into the bent over position. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, set the weights down but freeze frame.

Megan Dahlman: 19:37

And I took a picture of her and I showed her and in her, like just bent over position, like you're doing a row, her spine was completely rounded and for her it felt correct. Like her body feedback was saying this is right. And I said, okay, we got to get you more neutral, which actually means like a little bit of curvature at your low back. And she's like, oh my gosh, that feels so weird. So when you're first starting out, your body might not be giving you the correct feedback. So if we're adding a lot of weights and machines and stuff to the picture, it's just a lot that's confusing. So start with body weight only strength training moves. It's the easiest way to start, like lowest barrier to entry too.

Philip Pape: 20:21

And you just you. You explained why, right, which is important because there's a lot of noise out there when it comes to training. You know people will hear me talk about barbells, but they don't see behind the scenes how you know, I want to show somebody how to set their footstands first and then how to sit back down into it and like all the steps you're talking about where. Look at your from the side, look at yourself from 45 degrees and just evaluate each of these things and listen. When I learned to squat I try I watched a million videos, I did a million body weight squats and I still didn't have it quite right until I worked with a coach who said you know what? Here's some subtle things that you still need to fix.

Philip Pape: 20:55

It's a skill right, it's a skill, and so the proprioception, I think, is the fancy word for like, your awareness of your body in space. Again, if, whether you are athletic or not, if you've trained yourself through bad habits like a bad golf swing, it could feel fine. And habits like a bad golf swing, it could feel fine. And you know back flexion and all that people just don't quite understand until you explain it to them. So, yeah, these are good. Recording yourself is probably one of the best tips you just said. People don't do it enough.

Megan Dahlman: 21:19

People don't do it enough. They're in their excuses. I just don't like what I look like on me. It's like okay, no, you're not showing this to anybody else, you don't have to show it. You can delete it immediately after the fact. But I don't want you moving incorrectly.

Megan Dahlman: 21:34

And one thing I always say is never train bad technique. So if you're using bad technique and if you continue to use it over and over again, you're training your body that that's how you're supposed to do it. So even if, like, you're pushing really hard or you're doing an exercise and you're getting to the final few reps and you have to contort your body to make it happen, you're like I get that question a lot Like, should I just push through? And my answer is never train bad technique. You're going to start to teach your body that this is how we do it and this is okay to do it. It's always going to put you at risk. So the only way to know if you're training bad technique is if you have something that's giving you feedback, whether it's a trainer, that you're working with a mirror or recording yourself on your phone. Just do it once or twice and you'll be like oh my gosh, that helped so much A hundred percent.

Philip Pape: 22:29

Yeah, and you mentioned how, if you yeah you train your bad habits, that become worse. I would add to that that your leverages in your cross-sectional area on your body, they change based on your weight as well. Your body can be changing too, if you're like eating more, or maybe you're dieting and fat whatever, and when you add more, when you do start adding weight I know we weren't even talking about that, but once you do add weight, that changes the center of gravity and then heavier weight changes it more. So it never ends Like you have to learn how you respond in your different body types and weights. Do you agree with that?

Megan Dahlman: 23:04

A hundred percent, and this is might be getting ahead of myself, but I know we were planning on talking about weighted vests too.

Philip Pape: 23:11

Oh, I was going to go there next because you mentioned it. So, oh my gosh, so we can go there now if you want.

Megan Dahlman: 23:15

but like this is often what happens when you just strap on a weighted vest to your body to do strength training workout. I like the idea, but you have to be careful that that's not altering your technique, because your center of gravity just changed. It probably moved a little higher on your body and your balance kind of that your ability to control this added weight that's now wrapped around your body it's going to change. So just be aware that when you do put on a weighted vest for a workout like a strength training workout, it could be altering your mechanics. So be aware, yeah.

Philip Pape: 23:53

So? So then you have to put on a weighted calf weights. My daughters and I were playing Jenga yesterday and we got to the highest we ever got. It was like there were like three rows that didn't, that didn't, that weren't down to, just the two blocks.

Megan Dahlman: 24:07

Just the two little ones.

Philip Pape: 24:08

Yeah, right, and but the very top of the tower gets so wobbly because that center of gravity, so like when you try to take stuff from the top it's like that. So your weighted vest is just shifting that gravity up, moving your gravity up you know, unless you have a big butt or like really developed those legs in parallel or something.

Heather: 24:26

So speaking of the weighted, vest then, like there it's.

Philip Pape: 24:28

it's a big trend right now. Yep, I've been into rucking for years and I've recommended that to folks, but what's going on with the weighted vest? Like let's talk about it.

Megan Dahlman: 24:38

So I feel like, unfortunately, right now the weighted vest trend is is really catching on in the perimenopausal space.

Megan Dahlman: 24:46

So the women between the ages of like 40 and 50, it's now this like social media joke like you know, you're 40 when you're walking with a weighted vest and I feel like going on weighted vest walking is being used as a get out of jail free card. If I just walk with a vest, I'm doing what I need to for my bones and I don't need to do any strength training. Most studies looking at the effectiveness of walking with a weighted vest are not very conclusive studies and in fact they're usually comparing one group who didn't exercise at all with another group that walked with a weighted vest. Obviously, the group that walked with a weighted vest saw some improvements in their bone density. There's one interesting study that I liked a lot that showed a no walking group, a walking group, walking with a weighted vest. I'm like, okay, now we've got a good study that actually compares things properly. There was no difference in bone density between the non-weighted vest and the weighted vest group.

Philip Pape: 25:49

The only difference was improved balance interesting, and is that that's because the load was just not enough?

Megan Dahlman: 25:56

the load was higher on their body. So now they had this like new proprioception thing that they had to deal with, but when it came to bone density, it didn't really it's too. It's no, if you're rucking up hills, you know that's. That's really challenging. I mean, what is a classic rec? That's 40 pounds, right.

Philip Pape: 26:17

Yeah, I mean 25 to 50 is usually what I recommend yeah, yeah.

Megan Dahlman: 26:21

So the the thing is like all these studies showed walking weighted vests, but then when you compare that to what just strength training does for your bones, it pales in comparison. Like strength training, like it blows them all out of the water. Nothing can even come close. The wet walking with a weighted vest does not even come close, and so that's the beef I have with walking with a weighted vest.

Megan Dahlman: 26:49

If that's all you're doing, you're not doing your bones as great of a favor as you think you are. If it means that it's kind of a fun, newfangled thing that's getting you active Now you previously had been sedentary, but now it's motivating and fun newfangled thing that's getting you active. Now you previously had been sedentary, but now it's motivating, and there's this placebo effect of like I think it's doing something good and that's compelling you to exercise more. I am all here for that. But when it comes to bone density because that's what a lot of them feel like that's what we're doing this for it's not doing as much as you think. Like very marginal strength training is going to do way more.

Philip Pape: 27:26

Yeah, and then the way to vest to me, if you compare it to rucking, may provide a tiny boost in. You know how many calories you burn per mile, or something like that. Very small, very little. And then it's associated it's used to be associated with, like military or CrossFit style workouts where you just toss that on and run up hills and stuff and that's cool, it's all fun and games. But, yeah, strength training. So let's talk about strength training then. Yeah, the next level. So you've got your movement patterns safe and neutral. Back, you're learning how to use your ankles, hips, your joints, you know, getting that blood flow which feels great when you start lifting. It's just so good. Guys, if you haven't lifted, what are you waiting for? This is wits and weights. This is Megan Dolan. You've got to be lifting. And so what does the research or your experience tell us about minimum effective dose once you start loading and progressing? And that could be either intensity and load, or we could be talking volume or frequency or all of those.

Megan Dahlman: 28:20

Sure. So first of all, the most important factor is not necessarily dosage but consistency. So the positive impacts on your bone and muscle mass really really are going to come down to how consistent are you with this thing? Because you could have one really like dialed workout per month. But we know, I mean like that's an anecdotal thing, but that's where a lot of people go Like if I'm going to show up for a workout, it's got to like all of my numbers have to be spot on and perfect. And then for the perfectionist listening they're like well, if I can't do that, then I'm not going to do anything at all, and so their consistency with training is nowhere where it should be. So the most important factor first is just your consistency. But it is generally agreed that a minimum of two 30-minute resistance training sessions per week is ideal. So we can see some benefits, some progress, some benefits with two 30-minute strength training sessions per week and muscle change.

Megan Dahlman: 29:30

So stimulation on the muscles, so some adaptations for the muscles can be seen in a wide range of repetition ranges. So forever we were always saying like you gotta like don't do 20 rep things. You know, make sure that you're staying in the six to eight rep or six to 12. But we do see some adaptations in those higher rep ranges too. Now are they the adaptations that we want? You know, we're getting some more endurance capacity in those muscles, which is really great for those muscles.

Megan Dahlman: 30:01

But if we're wanting to really see some muscle growth, like that hypertrophy, usually the six to 12 repetition range is great, which means that if six is the number you're aiming for, when you get to five it should feel tough and that number six should feel really challenging. But with good technique right, you might only have one rep left in the tank, maybe two with good technique. So that's kind of the range that we're looking for. We can see improvements in as little as one set with an exercise. Two to three sets is great, but the difference between so two sets of an exercise is significantly better than one set.

Megan Dahlman: 30:44

So I'm saying like backwards one set is good. We see change, two sets even better. The difference between two and three sets is pretty minimal. We do still see some changes, but it's not as exponential as the difference between one and two sets, difference between zero and one sets.

Philip Pape: 31:05

I think we know the difference, infinite difference, of anything yeah.

Megan Dahlman: 31:08

Infinite difference. And then it really comes down to the greatest changes once again, our consistency, but moving every day, somehow. So even those people that are strength training, lifting weights or doing some form of strength training, twice a week, maybe three times a week, those other days that you're not lifting weights, stay moving. Stay working your body. It doesn't need to be a full workout. It could be going for a walk, could be doing some mobility work, some of that supplementary stuff, which I highly recommend, but stay moving every day. And that's what's going to that consistency over time, with these little bouts of higher resistance. That's where we're going to see some great impact. Perfect.

Philip Pape: 31:54

So I love everything you said because it's accessible and it's a place that anyone can start and go from zero to zero to hero, go up to a really great level of performance, and I often recommend at least two set two sessions as well for older folks generally I hate to say older, but you know, the older we get just because of recoverability and your schedules and practicality and all that and then you get into it right, and then you're going three, maybe four days a week.

Megan Dahlman: 32:20

You get into it right, and then you're going three, maybe four days a week to get into it. I'm usually at three per week. It feels good for me. I like three Usually. My third one might not be quite as heavy and might be a little bit more of the body weight strength training stuff, but for me personally, I lift at least two days a week, usually three, and that feels really good to me. Yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 32:43

Yeah, it has to, and it's got to work with your sleep schedule and how long your sessions can be and if you're commuting to the gym and all that stuff Exactly.

Philip Pape: 32:51

So let's, let's drill down a little bit deeper, because we talked about maybe nerding out on stuff and if Phil ever put you on the spot cause I know there's a lot of science out there that neither of us probably know all of it I want to talk about that. I had a keyword in here from when I was researching for the show osteogenic, which is like the level at which bone adaptation occurs. It's osteogenic, Cool word and there were three things that came up and I want to understand your points on it and whether we're leaving something on the table or not. The first one is load, which we already slightly touched on. But I have seen a lot of research that says, like, real adaptation occurs at a fairly high level of your max, like 85%, you know, like even beyond just the strength threshold, Like what are your thoughts on that? Should someone at some point think about getting into that regime or is it more of a one percenter?

Megan Dahlman: 33:38

If someone enjoys that. I think that a lot of people that actually are, you know, have gotten an osteopenia diagnosis. They're typically midlife or older, where their health up to that point, you know, they hadn't been lifting weights. So that's why they're here, that's why they're in this situation. The idea of lifting at such a high percentage of max feels really scary and you know they might never want to try to do that. So what's interesting is I've had a handful of clients who've gone through my year program and started out with certain bone density numbers that were pretty much borderline osteoporosis, like right in those beginning numbers of osteoporosis, and that was really scary for them. And these are women in their like early fifties just going through my programs, which we don't lift really really I always encourage them to push themselves, but everyone's level of what they push themselves is a little bit different. I don't give them a set number or anything. It's just like we're going to do eight reps. Make it hard, like let's go a little harder than what you did last week.

Megan Dahlman: 34:49

After a year pretty much every one of the women that has been in my programs has seen significant improvements in their bone density and many of them have been able to completely reverse their diagnosis and they're no longer even considered osteopenia. So that's a really good, like just example of you don't have to. You can still see benefits in your bones, like dramatic benefits in your bones. You know, with all else, other factors your nutrition has improved, your stress loads have improved, like there's so many other things at play here. But you don't have to if you don't want to. And lifting heavy can look very different. It doesn't have to look like barbells, it can look like dumbbells, it can look like things you machines, it can look like kettlebells and whatever you have access to. So it's such a nuanced conversation. So I like lifting heavy like a super heavy loads, but I know that a lot of people just don't like doing that.

Philip Pape: 35:52

Yeah, and I wanted to challenge it a little bit for you to give that answer, because there there's there's always carve outs and nuance, and I know there's research on I'll call it frailty, and people don't want to think of themselves as frail, but if you're on the border of osteoporosis, you have a sense of frailty in your body. It doesn't mean you are frail or that you can't go after it and like reclaim that power, right, yes, and where you could go at a much lower load and get, as long as you're using progressive overload. So then that leads to the second piece of this, which is explosiveness, or velocity, or like force over time type training, or what do they call strain rate. The strain rate, I think, is what it's called where you have it could be jumping and bounding in there, but it could just as well being when you're doing the lift on the concentric, you explode, which we want to do anyway for muscle and strength. Yeah, do you? Do you focus on that a lot or does it just come along for the ride?

Megan Dahlman: 36:39

Yeah, I put it in a category of power development and so really any time that you're contracting at a faster pace than just your regular rhythm. This is so important for injury prevention, especially for those that are getting older and might be frail. So we do have evidence that impact work is very valuable for bone density. I love doing the type of impact work in a strength training setting or in a training setting, versus going out and going for like a three mile run.

Megan Dahlman: 37:13

Yes, that's impact, but that's a lot of repetitive in the same motion, same plane of motion. It can be. It can sometimes create a lot of wear and tear on already damaged joints and exacerbate compensation patterns that someone might have. So doing the highly repetitive like impact work is not something I'm a huge fan of for someone who has osteoporosis and wants to improve it, but incorporating some of that higher speed power work, I love it for multiple reasons. However, we can only do it if you already have a really thick foundation of strength, so I want to know that your mechanics of doing a squat are perfect before we ever do a squat jump or a box jump Like you got it. I'm not going to make you do a squat jump if you can't even do a proper squat, like that's square one, you know, or bounding.

Philip Pape: 38:06

It's like the Olympic lifts and CrossFit people jump right into that.

Heather: 38:12

Hello, my name is Heather and I am a client of Philip Pace.

Heather: 38:16

Just six days after I started this cut, my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana, turkey.

Heather: 38:23

As I tried to process the stress and trauma, my first instinct was to say, oh, you've been through something hard, this is not a good time. But instead I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day and he helped me keep my macros that day, and not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body, but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was going to need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months. Here I am on the other side of eight weeks, got my kids through all the things that we have been through, and I weigh 12 pounds less than I did, and I got a new PR on my bench press. I have a long way to go and there are still things that I really want to accomplish, but now I know that I can and I'm really grateful. Thank you, philip.

Megan Dahlman: 39:12

Everything is a progression. So thinking like progressive overload, but also progressive overload with the exercise programming themselves, and this is where we can nerd out on like program design. But if you're going to design and have a good program, you're going to know that this exercise today, next month, is going to progress into this variation of it, which is going to progress into that variation of it Really great example I love to use is I always teach the basic squat first, and then we progress to a staggered squat where one foot is just slightly more forward than normal and we get good at that, which is kind of this offset stance, and then we progress to a split squat. So now we're starting to look more like a lunge. We're not stepping yet. You're not stepping in and out, your feet are still planted, but now there's more balance.

Megan Dahlman: 40:04

Your hips have to work differently, your core has to work, and then we add some stepping with it, like a reverse lunge is usually the easiest. Then we do a walking lunge, then we do a lunge in place and then maybe we'll try a lunge jump at the very end Awesome. And then maybe we'll try a lunge jump at the very end, you know. So like that's kind of how you would properly progress up to those higher power movements. Now there's some movements that are less risky. You know a lot of medicine ball work is not as risky like a medicine ball slam, like just slamming that down no-transcript. And medicine ball is beautiful for that, for a lot of that power work, that for older individuals it can be fun and it's not as dangerous. But definitely something like Olympic lifting, box jumping, hurdle hopping, great for bones. But let's build up to it properly.

Philip Pape: 41:02

For sure. But you mentioned reverse lunge. I actually did some this morning the safety squat bar, and it had been a long time and it's your body gets detrained from some of these movements where you're like, okay, I can't go as heavy as I did last time, let me just take it easy, because those quads are burning. Yeah, one thing that came to mind when you're talking about programming you talked about programming.

Philip Pape: 41:21

One thing I've been doing a lot lately and telling people about is top set back offset, which is, you know, the top set is like heavier, maybe a lower rep range, like four to six or six to eight, and then you drop the weight by like 10 to 20% and then your second set is eight to 12 or 12 to 15 to kind of get both the strength and the hypertrophy and limit it to two sets. So your sessions are kind of short and you really train hard because you're only doing two. So I'm tying it to everything you said about like what's optimum and practical at the same time. Is two sets enough? Is three days enough? How can you get the rep ranges in, but also maybe test the waters with heavy, all of that? So what's like some of your favorite programming schemes that are somebody listening, even if they are newer, they don't get too overwhelmed. They're like, okay, that's interesting I.

Megan Dahlman: 42:04

One of my favorite is circuits. So I almost love programming in circuits, whether it's a superset, so you just do two exercises at a time. I love that for like just mental focus. A superset, I like to call them couplets, so two exercises at a time where you just kind of go back and forth. Now you could do like two exercises that compliment each other like a push and a pull, or you could really overload and do two pushing style movements at the same, you know, like a chest press and a fly. That's intense. So that's one programming thing I really like to do.

Megan Dahlman: 42:39

I love descending reps. I use that a lot. So instead of changing the load, we keep the load the same, but we do we knock off like a rep each set through. That's one of my favorites. Another thing to get that I love to program in a lot is just doing time set, so focusing a little bit more on just the stamina of a movement. You'll use an AMRAP, a little bit AMRAP, so we could do it two different ways. Either Amrap style, so as many reps as possible, like in a 30 second period of time.

Megan Dahlman: 43:15

Another thing I like to do is as many rounds as possible in like five minutes. So we'll put five minutes on the clock. I'm going to give you five exercises. You've got five reps of each thing. How many rounds in five minutes can you do? So all of what I love about all of these everything, everything is going to work. It's all going to work, it's all. It's all going to create good stimulus on your body. The more variety, the better, but you don't want so much variety that you can't focus and you're not able to see progress.

Megan Dahlman: 43:45

So I take things in like in a mezzo cycle. So four week stints of time, usually four to six weeks, is a good mezzo cycle. So within that period of time, with a singular workout, with one workout like a workout, a like your Monday workout of the week, let's stick with one style for that workout. So this workout all cycle. We're going to do descending reps and or we'll do the AMRAP thing for this particular workout for the whole month and then next month we might switch it up, we might. So so you keep things, you keep variety, but not so much variety that it's random all the time and you can't see progress. And I think that's where like CrossFit lands in, where you show up and you have a totally different workout of the day.

Megan Dahlman: 44:36

I'm always trying to PR or even orange theory. You show up, you have a different trainer, you're always doing these random classes. There's no way to have a clear forward progress. And when you have that forward movement, forward progress, you you can give yourself a light week. You know week one can be a light week and then you start building, building, and then you have your final week where that's like all of your effort, and then you have that deload week to follow that. So it's so much happier and safer on your body and it just keeps it fun so much.

Philip Pape: 45:08

Yes, yes, you get bored, otherwise you get bored.

Heather: 45:11

Not getting bored.

Megan Dahlman: 45:11

This goes back to what we said in the beginning of like, the most important thing is just consistency. So if we can keep your workouts like really fun and like interesting and unusual, I have some clients that I work with where they're like just make it different a lot and I'm like well, I'll make it different every four weeks, but it'll be fun styles, so yeah.

Philip Pape: 45:35

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Like I just ran an eight week block and now I'm running a new one where the fun comes within the week. Right, like within the session and within the week you can make it fun, mix it up. I don't want to. I don't want you to ever think the next day you look at your training plan and say, ah, that's the day that we got on. Like, you know, like I mean, we all have movements. We are not huge fans of it, might, maybe, but then it has like three other things we really love, you know, and you're like, okay, I can get through this. You also mentioned the macro level. We want the variety at the micro level. We want the what, the consistency, so you can progress, which is its own fun, challenging thing. Right, because then you go next Monday. You're like, okay, I just did this. My movement patterns are like learning. You know my body's learning this. Now I can probably push a little harder and really figure that out.

Philip Pape: 46:20

The superset thing is cool because there's one or two things I've been doing lately. Megan, I wanted to jump spring off of that. One is adding a third set that is just an AMRAP, but only like 15, 10 seconds after the second set ended. So you do your first set. Take your two, three and four minute rest. You do your second set. I'm sorry this is you could do this with supersets or not, but let's say you're doing a superset and you're doing bicep curls and tricep press downs.

Philip Pape: 46:48

You do your bicep curls, then you do bicep, then you do bicep, then your tricep. After that second set of triceps, 10 seconds later you do another, but an AMRAP.

Heather: 46:57

And it's like a way to test that you're actually pushing to failure.

Philip Pape: 47:00

Yeah, with the same one. Just with the second one to check yourself of whether you're really training hard.

Megan Dahlman: 47:08

I like that. I mean, I wouldn't do that all the time.

Philip Pape: 47:12

Like.

Megan Dahlman: 47:13

I would not put that on like this is how I always do this particular workout. I mean that's definitely gonna max you, but I think that's a unique way to really test and I think in my own workouts I do that sometimes without saying like calling it anything.

Philip Pape: 47:29

Like.

Megan Dahlman: 47:29

I'll know it's my final set. I'll be like I've got more in the tank, so I'll just like keep going until I feel like I've maxed out, because I know like I'm not doing this exercise again today. I feel like I've got some more. I really want to push it, and so it probably is like an AMRAP there at the end where you're just seeing how much of or just maxing out in one way or another. So, yeah, Another thing that I like to add onto the end of workouts for a metabolic boost or metabolic finishers.

Megan Dahlman: 47:59

I don't know if you've ever used these, but this is great for like a conditioning effect on the end of like a strength training workout, just like five minutes max, usually body weight stuff. Sometimes it's fun to do like a strength circuit, but it's usually like a lighter load but high intensity boost, and it can be like a timed circuit, you know Tabata style thing, an AMRAP thing, like three minutes on the clock. How many of these can you do in three minutes? And those are kind of I use the word fun in quotes but you walk away from that on the end of your workout and you're like, Holy moly, that just pushed me over the edge. And the metabolic finishers. Those are fun.

Philip Pape: 48:46

Yeah.

Megan Dahlman: 48:47

More advanced athletes that I work with.

Philip Pape: 48:49

Yeah, it's just those. You got to kind of earn your your right to start doing those right, like I think of BFR in that category too, like blood flow restriction training in that same category.

Philip Pape: 48:58

What about, I guess, tied back to the bone density thing, how beneficial are the multi-joint exercises versus isolation, specifically for bone density, like, what is the advantage you're getting? Other than I could see load, because we can live more with your whole body and maybe that's the thing, but there's also central nervous system activity going on that's not happening with like a bicep curl. What are your thoughts on that?

Megan Dahlman: 49:23

I see the benefit of single joint movements for, like total strength.

Megan Dahlman: 49:30

You know, if that's what you're aiming for is to just like build total, pure strength for this muscle group.

Megan Dahlman: 49:38

For those that are more concerned about their bones, like if that's top of mind, we part of that conversation is also functionality and and how your body functions and moves, your mobility, and so multi-joint movements are always going to fit into that conversation best.

Megan Dahlman: 49:55

So the majority of the people that I work with are everyday individuals that want to feel and move better in everyday life. They don't necessarily want absolute max strength, they want to be strong for daily life and also have really strong bones and muscles. So in that scenario then, the multi-joint movements are always going to make the most sense. So I primarily only program those in because they're just so functional, so effective and they apply to their daily life. Every so often we'll do like a single, you know, just like a chest press which is still multi-joint, by the way, a chest press but it feels like a singular focus that mentally, is really exciting to feel yourself be really strong with, with a movement that's stable. You're working kind of one movement pattern at once. You can always do the strongest thing with that and that feels really good to explore your absolute strength. But as far as overall functionality, the multi-joint stuff is going to be the best.

Philip Pape: 51:00

Yeah, I would agree. I think it checks the box with almost any goal as the foundation. To be honest, that's the nice thing about our discussion here is, if you're listening, everything Megan talked about you should be doing for all the goals. I'll be honest, Like, even if you want to build muscle and physique, you're going to have to have that as your foundation. So it's great, because it doesn't mean you have to go do 10 sports and spend 80 hours in the gym, you know. So, speaking of the gym, what one? One other question I did want to make sure to come away with is somebody's listening, especially women equipment and access and going to the gym and that whole environment. That could probably be its own topic. But, like, do you have some you know my top three tips for, like, actually going to the gym? Like what, what should they be trying to do?

Megan Dahlman: 51:44

at the gym or like.

Philip Pape: 51:45

If they are not, if they haven't started yet. Should they be like, would you recommend finding a local gym first, or a home gym, or talk reaching out to you? You know, obviously they should reach out to you.

Megan Dahlman: 51:55

Yeah, I mean everything I put together, I make so that you can do it in your bedroom if you need to. So, when it comes to training and getting into a routine, the lowest barrier to entry the better. So if trying to find a gym, the lowest barrier to entry the better. So if trying to find a gym, signing up for a membership, walking into an unfamiliar place, those are all huge barriers that might prevent you from just starting. We need to just get you started and get the ball rolling. So most of the time I say just start at home, in your living room, in your bedroom. I have people that work out in their laundry room sometimes because it's the only place that they don't get bugged by their family. No one wants to come to the laundry room. So just start where you are, even your location, and don't feel like it needs to be this huge production.

Megan Dahlman: 52:46

Some people really do enjoy and are motivated by the environment of going to a gym and for certain seasons of life that can be really great. You got a gym, you walk in, you're not going to do anything else there, you're not going to get distracted, you're going to get in, get your workout done and move on with your day, whereas at home sometimes you can put it off because you've got this task and this task. So in those situations, if you lack focus and you keep losing time to get it done at home, then carving out time and having a gym set up or a gym to go to can help with your focus. But for most people I feel like just getting to the gym is a huge barrier. So you can do full, highly effective workouts everything we talked about at home without any equipment to start with. So just get started.

Philip Pape: 53:37

And it saves time, and you mentioned carving out time, so that would be. The last barrier I can think of is, even at home, I've got a packed schedule, I'm a mom, I'm overwhelmed, whatever, and I get this question all the time too. But I'm always curious what, like, your top tip is for that.

Megan Dahlman: 53:52

You know psychological barriers like they're in our mind, and carving out time usually means like. It means that the workout that you're wanting to do you're maybe either dreading or it's unfamiliar and you have this impression that it's going to take you a really long time to learn it and you don't want to learn it. Think of that dreaded feeling of learning a new board game.

Philip Pape: 54:23

You have to read the instructions.

Megan Dahlman: 54:27

It's really fun, it's really good, it won't take that long to learn. You're like I just want to do the other game that I already know how to do. I don't want to waste my time learning this. The same thing happens with our workouts. So usually, if a workout just has a few movements that are familiar to you, you don't feel nervous about them. You're not afraid that you're going to mess up or hurt yourself. You don't feel nervous about them. You're not afraid that you're going to mess up or hurt yourself. Suddenly, you have more time in your schedule to do a workout like that because you're the excuses that you thought were the excuses weren't actually the real excuses. So usually the solution is to simplify the routine that you're trying to commit to. If you continue to not have time to do the workout, your routine's probably too complicated. It's probably overwhelming. You and you're right, you don't have time to do such an overwhelming routine. So just simplify it. Make it just two exercises to start with and build from there.

Philip Pape: 55:25

And so let's segue into our last piece here, our last piece here. With that, you've got a lot of great content. We have a YouTube channel we're going to link in the show notes. Is this something where you would recommend a specific video? We can throw it in where you're going to learn your squat at home tonight After you listen to this podcast. You could do it in your living room, throw it on the TV. It'll take you 10, 15 minutes and that's it. That's how you get started. What do you think?

Megan Dahlman: 55:50

Totally All of the videos that I post on YouTube are 15 minutes or less there we go.

Megan Dahlman: 55:54

I've got some great follow along workouts that are, you know, either mobility focused If you feel like I could just use a stretch or strength training, body weight focused.

Megan Dahlman: 56:06

I try to post on my YouTube channel something that you can do in your living room if you don't have any equipment, and so it's a really great, fantastic place to start. And then if someone, if someone's really wanting to start a follow along routine that progresses and isn't just these like haphazard workouts here and there, but actually is a progressive program and routine, my jumpstart 30 program is a really excellent place for it to start. The first day is like eight minutes long, doesn't require any equipment and we focus so much on that technique. And by month three so if they keep moving through the courses in my series, by the third course we're starting to lift weights. So for anybody listening, that's like I know I need to lift weights. I don't know anybody listening that's like I know I need to lift weights. I don't know if I should start there, but I know I need to get there. My jumpstart series of programs is what's going to get you there lifting weights safely.

Philip Pape: 57:00

And is there like a teaser video or a taste of it from there that we can throw in the show notes for folks?

Megan Dahlman: 57:05

Yes, Just go to VigeoFitcom, slash jumpstart. And that's the info about Jumpstart 30.

Philip Pape: 57:12

Yeah, All right, that's what we'll do. Everybody, please check that out. Megan is awesome. There's a reason I have had her on the show multiple times and she's a font of not only the science information but the practical information and everything she's saying. I agree with it, so it's got to be right. So, yeah, go go check her out. We'll, we can throw your socials in there, but I'd rather them just hit you up at the jumpstart and check that out as step one. So anything else you want to say, Megan, before we sign off.

Megan Dahlman: 57:41

Yeah, just come say hi everybody. I'd love to meet you and Philip, thanks again for having me on the show. I love you. This is great.

Philip Pape: 57:48

Always a pleasure, so much fun talking to you. The time flies by, so thanks again, megan, for coming on. Wits and Weights Thank you.