The Lost Legacy of Women's Strength (Anne Marie Chaker) | Ep 361
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Were women in the past weaker than men, or have we been sold a lie? What if prehistoric women could outlift most modern athletes? And how does understanding this history change the way you train today?
I’m joined by Anne Marie Chaker, author of Lift: How Women Can Reclaim Their Physical Power and Transform Their Lives. We break down archaeological evidence that shows ancient women had elite-level strength, explore how cultural narratives have stripped women of their physical identity, and reveal why midlife can be a prime time for building muscle. You’ll learn simple, sustainable ways to start lifting, structure your workouts, and rethink food as fuel, not the enemy.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
0:00 – Intro
2:24 – From journalist to competitive bodybuilder
4:30 – Archaeological proof of elite ancient women
7:07 – The Viking warrior who wasn’t a man
11:10 – The mixed messages of modern fitness culture
17:37 – How to fuel like an athlete
26:10 – Navigating perimenopause and training
30:05 – First steps for women new to lifting
36:10 – A brief history of strong women in sport
40:09 – How lifting shapes identity and mindset
Episode resources:
Website: annemariechaker.com
Book: Lift: How Women Can Reclaim Their Physical Power and Transform Their Lives
Instagram: @annemariechaker
Reclaiming the Strength Women Were Born to Have
If you picture women in history as frail and passive, it is time to rewrite that image. Archaeological evidence shows that prehistoric women had bone density and upper-body strength rivaling today’s elite female athletes. Viking warrior graves, long assumed to belong to men, have been confirmed female. For most of human history, women were not bystanders to physical work. They were builders, warriors, and athletes by necessity. The idea that women are naturally weak is a recent cultural invention, and it has cost generations their physical power.
The reality is that women have always been strong. That strength was essential for survival and deeply woven into everyday life. Today, reclaiming it is not about chasing a particular physique but about living with more capability, confidence, and vitality, especially in midlife and beyond.
The Original Athletic Body
A Cambridge University study comparing the bones of ancient women to those of modern women revealed something remarkable. Prehistoric women had bone structure equivalent to today’s top female rowers. These women worked the land, carried heavy loads, ground grain, and performed the relentless manual labor that kept their communities alive. Their strength was not a rarity, it was the norm.
This was the “original” female body, built for resilience and power. That reality stands in sharp contrast to the modern thin ideal, which only took hold in the last 150 years, often coinciding with moments when women gained social influence. The flapper era in the 1920s, the waif look of the 1990s, these trends emerged alongside women entering new roles in politics and the workplace. Thinness became a tool of control, undermining physical autonomy.
Midlife Strength Is Not Only Possible, It Is Advantageous
Perimenopause and menopause are often framed as a period of decline, but they can be a powerful window for building and preserving muscle. Training during this phase supports bone density, metabolic health, and quality of life for decades to come. Shifting the focus from weight loss to muscle building changes the game entirely.
The key is structured strength training, not endless cardio. Compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, presses, and pull-ups form the foundation. Three sessions a week, 30 minutes each, done with focus and progressive effort, are enough to spark meaningful change. You do not need a fancy gym to begi. Dumbbells, bands, or even just body weight can work.
Food as Fuel, Not an Enemy
For many women, the turning point comes when food is no longer seen as something to restrict but as something that builds strength. Adequate protein is essential, and simple staples like chicken tenderloins, turkey crumbles, potatoes, rice, and liquid egg whites make hitting daily targets easier. Prepping these foods ahead of time removes decision fatigue and helps avoid the last-minute takeout trap.
Structure does not mean rigidity. Within a balanced framework of protein, carbs, and fats, there is room for favorite foods, whether that is a date night meal or birthday cake with family. This is about sustainability, not punishment.
Lifting for Life, Not Just for Looks
The benefits of strength training go far beyond aesthetics. Lifting heavy builds capability and confidence. It changes how you move through the world, how you age, and even how you see yourself. It also sets a visible example for younger generations. When children see their mothers lifting and enjoying it, they learn that strength is normal, not exceptional.
The workout itself does not have to be exhausting to be effective. Training at about an 8 out of 10 effort (RPE) for most sets ensures that muscles are challenged enough to adapt without leaving you drained. Consistency, not destruction, is the goal.
How to Begin Reclaiming Strength
Start where you are, at home or in a gym, with a few key movements like squats, presses, rows, and hip thrusts.
Commit to 3 focused sessions per week, about 30 minutes each.
Prioritize protein in every meal and prep staple foods in advance.
Track progress against your own past performance, not against someone else’s body.
Stay consistent, even when life gets busy, knowing that small, repeated efforts build lasting results.
The Takeaway
Women are not new to strength. They are returning to it.
From the agricultural fields of prehistory to the competition stage at age 50, the female body has always been capable of power and endurance. Reclaiming that legacy is less about chasing a physique and more about embracing the body’s potential.
When you train with purpose, fuel with intention, and measure progress by your own evolving capabilities, you are not just getting stronger, you are aligning with the way women were always meant to live.
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Transcript
Philip Pape: 0:01
If you think women were historically weak and passive, you're about to discover how wrong that assumption is. Archaeological evidence reveals that prehistoric women had bone density and arm strength comparable to today's elite female athletes. Viking warrior graves once assumed to be male have been confirmed female, and the delicate flower narrative you've been told about women throughout history is a complete fabrication. Narrative you've been told about women throughout history is a complete fabrication. Today, my guest reveals the lost history of women's strength and why reclaiming this power isn't just about looking good. It's about surviving and thriving in midlife and beyond. You'll discover why your female ancestors would outperform most modern women in strength tests, how perimenopause actually creates opportunities for building muscle and specific training approaches that work best with female physiology. Stop believing the lie that women are naturally weak when the evidence proves women are built for physical power. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.
Philip Pape: 1:09
I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm excited because we're challenging what you think you know about women and strength throughout history and even modern times, because my guest is Anne-Marie Chaker, a former Wall Street journalist who made a quite dramatic career pivot to become a competitive bodybuilder at 50.
Philip Pape: 1:27
She's the author of Lift how Women Can Reclaim their Physical Power and Transform their Lives. We're definitely going to link you guys to that in that book and we're going to play on that in today's interview. She combines evolutionary biology, archaeological evidence, sports science, culture to reveal how women have been I'll say, systematically conditioned to believe they're naturally weak, when the opposite is quite true. And today you're going to learn why prehistoric women had strength levels that would potentially shame modern athletes. The cultural narratives that have stripped women of their physical identity and how those have evolved. The specific ways that women over 40 can reclaim their evolutionary advantage through intelligent training, which we're all about here. Whether you're a woman looking to build strength or anyone interested in nerding out on the intersection of history and biology and performance, today's episode is going to change how you view women's physical capability. Anne-marie, hope I got all that right. I'm very excited to get into this with you, and welcome to the show.
Anne Marie Chaker: 2:21
That was beautiful, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Philip Pape: 2:24
So I want to really start from the historical lens. I don't know if we can make this a chronological story, but your book Lift challenges all of these assumptions about gender and physical capability, that women throughout history have been weaker, or there are certain views that we have on them culturally based on recent history, especially like the Victorian age and all of that, and that they're maybe less involved physically than men throughout history. But your research, I think, suggests quite the opposite. So when you look back at the majority of our history, first of all, what was expected of women? What's the reality there? What was expected of women in terms of strength?
Anne Marie Chaker: 2:59
So this book was really born of my own experience, philip, when I, you know, was in my 40s and life had hit kind of a tough patch. You know, I, through happenstance, kind of entered this weird wild world of weightlifters and bodybuilders and kind of weightlifting had changed my life Right. So it was like the world was black and white and then it was Technicolor Everything. Once I started working with this coach and lifting weight, my body was transferring, but it was also my mind started transforming and so, like you know, had more confidence. I, you know, would come back to my desk after a good lift and I would, you know, I could hear it in my voice I was wearing lipstick again, like everything, like I just felt like a new person, and so the dripplist in me really wanted to understand well, where has this been? My whole life, like my entire life, I was chasing skinny right, always, this feeling like I had to lose weight. If I did, it wasn't ever enough, and like I had to be thin. And it's like the message that is ingrained in our heads from the moment we were born and suddenly embracing kind of the moreness of muscle and the idea of building oneself, kind of radically transformed my life in every which way. So the journalist in me really wanted to understand why the heck have we been, you know, chasing this thing when this other thing is clearly the answer? And I became enamored of you know.
Anne Marie Chaker: 4:30
I started, you know, kind of researching the history of the thin ideal and where the heck this came from. And I kept coming back to this study out of Cambridge. This professor kind of realized. Study out of Cambridge, this professor kind of realized like how come, you know, early bones of women are always being compared to men but we never compare them to how women, modern women's bone structure looks. So what if we took Neolithic and Paleolithic women's bone skeleton and compared them to a sample of modern women? So she looked at a sample of different modern students at Cambridge University more sedentary students, athletes and she found that the early women's bones were about the size of the elite rowers with their big, developed kind of upper bodies.
Anne Marie Chaker: 5:23
So this blew her mind and blew my mind too, because it said these early women were buff, they were lifting heavy things, they weren't sitting around wondering like how do I get thinner. They were, you know, an integral part of agriculture. It wasn't like, you know, this hunter gatherer myth where, like, the men are doing all the work and they're hunting and they're doing all the things and the women are picking berries in the field. No, the women were working hard. So this, to me, said that this is the OG body, this is the body that women are intended to have and that we perform best at. And that was why, to me, as an athlete who was lifting heavy things, of course, I was working, doing much better in every which way. So it kind of went from there. If I was experiencing this, if I was kind of coming home to this body that I felt like I was always supposed to have, I wanted other women to kind of experience this as well.
Philip Pape: 6:24
I was always supposed to have. I wanted other women to kind of experience this as well. You know the story about looking into the why and history. Right, it reminds me of Jen Todd, right, jen Todd, who is a pioneer in powerlifting for women. She kind of founded many of the academic. I think she even still edits a journal and she I forget which university she went to, but anyway it reminds me of that, of looking back and saying you know, we make all these assumptions about how women were acting in society. You mentioned the gathering versus the hunting. Are there particular points in our culture's history? Is it? Do you have to go back to prehistory, or is there? You know, during post-agriculture and civilized time, I guess, where we see this? You know, because I'm just really curious what they were doing to get those massive rower density bodies.
Anne Marie Chaker: 7:07
It's interesting because we look at things through this modern lens of. You know how women are supposed, you know how men behave and how women were. You know we think we have so many cultural touch fairy tales, and you know marketing message on cracker boxes and you know all kinds of things. There was another thing that I found which blew my mind, which was this Viking grave in Birka, sweden, that was discovered, and in the grave was this great warrior, clearly a leader, buried with the horse and chess pieces. That showed that this was a leader who was thinking about strategy, clearly the grave of a great leader. For eons it was assumed that this was. I think the grave was found and I could be wrong here, but I think it was like 1917. And so for many, many years it was assumed that this was a male, and it wasn't until just a few years ago, that very recently, that it was found that this warrior had two X chromosomes.
Anne Marie Chaker: 8:07
It was, it was a woman, and how interesting is that? I mean I, if I found the, I would have assumed it was a man too, right, but it's like only in modern times. Really, it's really the, the idea that men are the stronger. Sex is really the product of the last 150 or so years. Men are the stronger. Sex is really the product of the last 150 or so years and I would argue, you know it's something that has benefited a patriarchy run by men. If we keep women in a more childlike, controlled, weaker state, that benefits a world run by men. And we see this take place most sharply in certain times where women really gain more power and influence.
Anne Marie Chaker: 8:50
So, for instance, when women won the right to vote in the 1920s, what did we have? We suddenly had the flapper was the look where, you know, suddenly thin was in in a big, big way. This reared its head again. For instance, you know, we saw it in the 80s when women suddenly were infiltrating boardrooms and the corporate world and we had the power suit with the big shoulder pads. You know, suddenly we had Kate Moss, and you know.
Anne Marie Chaker: 9:18
So there are moments where, you know, you see the skinny thing rise most sharply when women start to show an inkling of more power. So I could go on and on about this. But it's not just one thing that caused skinny to be. There were many things, from food supply and demand. We want to emulate wealth, right. Well, when food became more plentiful, more people had access to the stuff. So you know, the pendulum started to swing more towards thinness and you know the dawn of the calorie and the obsession of measuring it and all of these different things, kind of fueling the flames. But at its core, I think you know really the skinny obsession is really a product of control and keeping women in a weaker state which has never benefited us.
Philip Pape: 10:14
Yeah, I mean, I love strong women. My wife lifts weights, we're talking about that a lot, and, of course, I suppose I'm the last person who can talk about patriarchy, being a man myself, so I'm not going to go there, but I could see that in history. I think it's important to understand history and why certain moments and landmarks had shifted the narrative right Like the Victorian frailty. You know where were our ancestors from 10,000 years ago and how they lived versus a thousand years ago in the Middle Ages, and the Vikings versus the Victorian age, and so I suppose you tell me if this is true or not. Are we in a new renaissance now? Because I think we're talking more about it. I think there's more acceptance for strong and being fueled, but I also hear just as strong some of the terrible messaging that has hung on since the 80s, that gets amplified on social media, especially to younger girls, with how the algorithms work and things like that. So what are your thoughts Like? What period are we in now in terms of women's strength?
Anne Marie Chaker: 11:10
It's such a great question and I have so many feelings and so many thoughts. You know, as the mother of a 14 year old girl who's just recently discovered TikTok. I was just sitting on a bus next to her and literally watching her for hours scroll through my phone and look at TikTok, and so it was really kind of fascinating study on what she's seeing and what message. And let me tell you, it's not pretty. It's not pretty. There's this whole skinny obsession rearing its head again and I mean, and on the other hand, I go to a gym and I see, I see we're starting to see many more women and when I started my journey, I started hitting the fitness, the weight room, and I would say 2018, 2019, I was really one of the only women in the weight room. I was largely 18, 19, 20 year old young men. I was kind of the grandma.
Anne Marie Chaker: 12:04
Now I think you know the influencers gym influencers, as they call them. We're seeing a lot more women in the weight room, which is wonderful, and they know what they're doing. It's impressive Like they go and they know what to do, they've watched the video and they go with friends and so forth. So, and of course, glp-1s now again. So there's different things going on and I think it's all kind of shaking out. There was one, I don't know if you remember, in my book, a study of Miss Americas from, you know, 50 years ago to now, and it was this researcher who kind of noted that you know, we're starting to see more of a skinny, muscular ideal, which also isn't good, you know, because that's not healthy either and it's an ideal that's even more impossible to reach. So I think there's a lot of mixed, confusing messages going on and I don't think the skinny thing is going away anytime soon, unfortunately.
Philip Pape: 13:05
Yeah, I think you talked about that on a recent Substack article.
Philip Pape: 13:08
Yes, a little like that for folks.
Philip Pape: 13:09
You've got a lot of really cool articles there, some cross-posted as well with other folks that you collaborate with, but that skinny, muscular I think you were talking about an actress in particular but it makes me think of, from the male perspective, how Fight Club became like a landmark for the new physique of super skinny, not even shredded and muscular, just kind of gaunt and skinny, right Like with the six pack, and why those things are so powerful and why they take control with these huge and so I always think I don't know what you think is that if you're different, if you're weird and you're the minority, you're probably doing the right thing in any given part of society.
Philip Pape: 13:45
So if we're to elevate this for folks listening and, by the way, a lot of our listeners, they're into lifting, they want to know about this. We're trying to get the message out about. You know, if you want to lose fat, that's fine, but it's not about weight, it's not about scale weight, it's not about being skinny. It's about fueling yourself and being healthy and performing yourself and being healthy and performing. Who are your favorite athletes today that would exemplify that or to not put you on the spot, like you know what people should look for when they're trying to follow individuals on social media or podcasts or whatnot to get the right messaging into their feed.
Anne Marie Chaker: 14:16
Well, I don't know that this is revolutionary or anything, but I've been really taken with Alana Marr. I think you know her Instagram is just a masterclass. I think she works with her sister on it. I could be wrong. It's just like she's funny and she's brave and she talks about her. I mean, her body is unbelievable, she's big and she's unabashedly strong and she talks about how she feels and she's honest, like sometimes like she feels not so good and like she worried, like it's just a very honest, funny and brave social media account and it represents kind of the best of what social media should be, which is just honest. She's very body-powered, she's strong and she's proud of her strong body and she eats like there was one where she was biting into a donut the other day and she was just like I am enjoying a jelly-filled donut and it was just like. It was just so funny and you just wanted to eat the donut with her and and hash it out. But you know, trying to think of other athletes, that none come to mind.
Philip Pape: 15:30
No, that's okay, and that's a lot of Mar with an eye right, a lot of Mar with an eye. Yeah, yeah, the Mar, yeah, olympic medal is um, definitely check her out. I gave her a follow as well. How about have you heard of Jessica Bittner?
Anne Marie Chaker: 15:39
That name rings a bell Canadian forklift.
Philip Pape: 15:42
She's a powerlifter in Canada, super, super strong. So yeah, I was just curious, right, because I think you have a 14-year-old daughter, I have a 13-year-old and an 11-year-old, right, and they actually don't have cell phones yet.
Anne Marie Chaker: 15:56
No, neither do mine.
Philip Pape: 15:57
They play with. And no judgment on anybody, I'm just saying like that kind of wholesale takes an element out of the equation. But I am also, you know, concerned about that. Like, how do you get educated yourself when you're raising your, your children, your daughters, to, when they see that information, to have the right judgment on that and critical thinking skills around that? Right, because we can't control everything. Once they grow up, they're going to be exposed to all that, so what do they do? So that's just kind of where all this is coming from.
Anne Marie Chaker: 16:24
It's amazing what they absorb. I haven't done much with TikTok but I was like this is what you guys are interested in and you're seeing these little gym video. Let's do some together. So we started just a couple of weeks ago I started taking little videos in the basement here where I keep my weights and stuff with mother-daughter nonsense workouts and stuff. And it's funny, my little one who's 10, she said we were. I was doing a bench press with her spotting behind me and we had the cell phone camera on and she goes all about the bulk and and I was just like where do you know this? Like she's like like they pick up on stuff that they see on tiktok.
Philip Pape: 17:08
so anyway, well, it's funny you mentioned bulk. Right, because the language we use is important too. Right, because you hear still fears about bulking and getting big and being muscular and and or the other terms like being tone and being lean and all that. It, or the other terms like being tone and being lean and all that. It's like trying to define all that or dispel what it all means. You're all about, from what I understand, you know, fueling yourself and performing, and so what I'm curious about being a bodybuilder 50 awesome, this is like you're. You're still you're prepping for your first show, right?
Anne Marie Chaker: 17:37
No, no, I've done shows before. This is. I'm in prep for my first pro.
Philip Pape: 17:42
Pro show yeah, yeah, okay, awesome. So what is that? Obviously, bodybuilding itself does come with certain extremes. We've talked about that on the show in terms of like, when you have to lean out ready for the show. But in terms of the building and the improvement season, what does that look like for you? What does the everyday person, who doesn't even want to compete, who's a woman? What are the general principles they should be trying to incorporate when they go down this journey of strength and health?
Anne Marie Chaker: 18:07
Yeah, I would say it really reframed my feelings about food as something to like oh my God, avoid guilt as like something to embrace and to really eat more quantities of, like whole and plentiful food. And that doesn't mean it's a great big free for all, and but I would say that I prepare my own food ahead of time to ensure that I'm eating really well. And that sort of approach of preparing ahead of time and meal prep which is like a term you hear a lot now with social media, but prepping your food ahead of time has been the big game changer for me In the past.
Anne Marie Chaker: 18:57
I would eat when I got hungry, you know, and I would eat when I got hungry or I would come home from work and it was like, oh shit, there's nothing in the fridge. Take out menus. There was a, you know, it was always like feeding myself was like a last minute thing when I got hungry. And then, of course, you're not going to make great choices, you're just kind of going to eat what's easy, quick or yummy. Kind of going to eat what's easy, quick or yummy. So now I have a much more I mean bodybuilders think in terms of macronutrients. So that's how I categorize my food. I think the big three are carbs, proteins and fats and basically I do like a big shop on Sunday. I'm a big Aldi's shopper. I love Aldi's. It's cheap and it's quick and it's everything you need and it's no frills. I save so much money shopping at Aldi's and, by the way, I'm not like an Aldi, I don't get any money from Aldi's.
Philip Pape: 19:54
This episode is sponsored by Aldi. This is not a sponsored by Aldi. Maybe I should reach out to them, I know.
Anne Marie Chaker: 20:00
But so anyway, sunday big shop at Aldi's. Come home I always make a ginormous big green salad and that's like the thing I keep in the fridge and I pull from that all the time. I make a pot of boiled potatoes, either sweet or white, it doesn't matter and or white rice I love white rice. So those things are always like those are my ready to go carbs and then proteins I eat things that the rest of the crew will like also, so I'm not cooking meals forever. You know different meals for everyone.
Anne Marie Chaker: 20:34
So grilled chicken I buy those chicken tenderloins, throw those on the grill those last a couple of days, everybody eats those. I do something I always call a tenderloins throw those on the grill those last a couple of days, everybody eats those. I do something I always call a turkey crumbles, which is a pack of 93% and 99% turkey mixed together with a pack of taco seasoning. That's awesome. I eat that on salad. I eat that with potato, kids eat that with tacos. That is gold. And then liquid egg whites are like the mother's milk of bodybuilders that I consume that in a smoothie. That is like gold for my mid-afternoon smoothie. I usually combine that with some banana or berries, maybe a spoonful of peanut butter. If I need fats banana, but liquid egg whites is always. And yeah, like I eat pretty basic but it's good food and it's satiating and I like, really like protein. I mean, I like meat.
Philip Pape: 21:32
Yeah, no, we're all about protein and carbs. So I love, I would be hungry if I didn't just have lunch, so it sounds so good. But I do want to give the audience some takeaways. Right, because we talk about macros and tracking and all that. But there are some simple things that you just mentioned that are timeless. They're principles, they're things that will make your decision fatigue way lower when you get to, you know, prepping your dinner for the kids and your family.
Philip Pape: 21:56
And you get home and you don't have much time, you don't go for the Chinese takeout, and that is, you know. Two things you mentioned One doing things ahead of time, prepping ahead of time, reducing decision from the week. And of course, that could be extrapolated to anything, to preparing what you're going to eat, to the grocery shopping you do on Sunday, to having a meal plan, whether it's a loose mix and match or more, you know, firm, depending on what your preference is Right. And you mentioned very simple but like great choices for foods that are high in satiety, high in fiber. Right, the potatoes, for example, are underrated, source of staying full. People don't realize. And then all the beautiful, the egg whites. Actually, that's another underrated thing because people talk about whey protein and that one is really good.
Anne Marie Chaker: 22:39
So underrated. I mean you don't even need whey protein if you're using liquid egg whites. I think a lot of people get grossed out by the idea of the egg and, like you know, I always get like don't you have to cook them and you don't, they're pasteurized so you can consume that, and like they're totally flavorless. So once you get past the mental block of them being eggs, it's totally flavorless, it's fine.
Philip Pape: 23:04
Yeah, yeah, great, and you can mix it in with whole eggs as well and increase the protein density. Yeah, and you said one other thing about reframing around food, about it not being a big free-for-all, and it reminded me of I think I'm going to do a podcast about this Lyle McDonald wrote an article years ago called excluding the middle, and it's basically the false dichotomy where and this is big on social media right when it's like well, over here you've got the all pop tart diet and then over here you've got the all clean and like super boring bodybuilder diet and, like you said and you mentioned Ilana Mar eating the donut, there's room for it all. Don't't. Don't assume this false dichotomy. But you have to have structure, you have to have planning. Right is that? Is that the message here?
Anne Marie Chaker: 23:43
absolutely, absolutely, and that's really kind of like. That's continues to be like. My challenge is, like you know, finding the. I love the way actually you put it is the structure, having the structure as the backbone and allowing yourself a life.
Anne Marie Chaker: 24:01
But always kind of coming back to the backbone of um, right now, for instance, you know I'm in prep and I'm like weeks before competition, so I'm not, I'm really careful and um yeah, I'm really dialed in, but in the, when the competition season is over, I'm still tracking, you know, I'm still tracking macros and making sure I'm like hitting my protein and allowing myself, you know, I might have I don't like the term cheat days, because I feel like but it's yeah, but I, you know, go on a date night, allow myself a date night with my husband or drink wine and have like a wonderful meal, and that is totally awesome and cool.
Anne Marie Chaker: 24:43
It's not every night, because then it wouldn't be special, right. But you know, a date night, or like, if I'm, you know my kid is having a birthday, like I'll enjoy birthday cake because it's birthday cake, it's my kid, it's life, you know so it's not like it's, it's not like it, just life, you know. So, it's not like it's, it's not like it. Just because you're a bodybuilder doesn't mean like you're negating everything, you know it's within a framework and allowing yourself, you know the times, to enjoy the special things which is important and very important, you know, and that's like, and they're special.
Philip Pape: 25:16
So yeah, and so I don't know how natural this segue will be, but because we're talking about bodybuilding and also mentioned your age, the natural question is okay, perimenopause, menopause, hormones hot topic today. We've touched on it on this show, talking about some of the chain acceleration and muscle mass, and obviously it's very different from one woman to the next as to how they're going to respond and whether HRT is in the mix and all this other stuff. I think the listener wants to know that phase of life does it present certain challenges for some women that they need to work around with their lifestyle, with their training, with their food? Because I know what a lot of women tell me is I'm trying to lose weight and I'm having trouble doing that, and it becomes a weight loss discussion as opposed to, maybe, a building or muscle discussion. Where do you stand on all of that? What should be the first focus for someone in that age range? What are your thoughts on all of that? The perimenopause, training, lifestyle, all of that?
Anne Marie Chaker: 26:10
Yeah, no, it hit me. You know, I kind of had this idea of like menopause, like you know, like I don't know it was like for those people, like you know. And so when I started feeling these symptoms I would say about a year ago, and I thought a hot flash was like oh Lord, I'm having, I'm hot. No, it didn't feel that way to me at all. It was like a prickly sensation and I thought I was having a panic attack, like that's what it felt like to me, like prickly, like anxiety. So I didn't associate it at all with menopause. But then it started happening with some frequency and I had this like really bizarre road rage incident with this other driver and which was very unlike me. So I remember coming home and Googling road rage and menopause and it turns out rage is a thing. And then I realized the prickly feelings and then I was having other symptoms and so, yes, menopause is real and I found some relief with I take an estrogen patch and that has helped a lot.
Anne Marie Chaker: 27:25
But it's funny, there was a story in the Wall Street Journal about how, like certain phases in your life where you age more and like for men, it's like between I don't know, I don't remember, it was like between 43 and 44.
Anne Marie Chaker: 27:38
And like for women it was like between da, da, da, and it's just like I just feel like the last year has been like suddenly, like I have hit, kind of like I, I have aged more and I've felt it at the gym, like I feel like my body feels different, like I, you know, like I've aged, so I don't know.
Anne Marie Chaker: 28:01
It's kind of exciting this competition season because I'll see how things shake out. Like you know, I no longer, like in the past I used to be really competitive against other people, like I used to really want to win and kick butt and you know, this time around I'm more interested in like myself, like I still want to win and do well, but I'm more interested in like how I'm going, still want to win and do well, but I'm more interested in like how I'm going to look compared to the last time I stepped on stage and kind of this is so no, but I'm feeling pretty good. But it does feel like I will say 50 feels different than the last time I competed, which was I was 48, 48 and a half.
Philip Pape: 28:36
Yeah, I mean I like that. It sounds like a very healthy perspective of competing with yourself, right? Because one of the common questions I get is like how strong should I be for my age, or how big should my muscles be for my age, or how, whatever I'm like, the best standard is yourself, Like where were you last year or last month or what are you trying to improve in, and compare yourself to that. But let's dig one level deeper though, in the whole menopause thing, because when I had Holly Baxter on the show and I asked her the very first question, like what are most women not doing or should do that they're not doing, she said just building muscle, like whether it's in a calorie surpluspost-menopause. I mean really everybody.
Philip Pape: 29:20
As we age, we hit these age markers that you mentioned and things start to change as well, as we've had a certain lifestyle for like 20 years, 30 years. That is, I guess, catching up to us, if you will Like. Where should someone start? Where should a woman listening here say, wow, Ann Maria, that's awesome what you're doing? I don't think I'm going to be in a show next year, necessarily, but I want to get healthier. What's the first step?
Anne Marie Chaker: 29:41
Yeah, that's a great question. So a couple things. You can decide whether you want to do this at home or join the gym. My feeling is I like having both options. It doesn't take a lot to have a couple things at home on days where you can't make it to the gym. Go to a corner of your house. If you have a couple pairs of dumbbells, maybe a band, you actually get a good workout done.
Anne Marie Chaker: 30:05
The beauty of the gym is it's like it's nice to get out, it's nice to see other people, you might make a couple friends, you know, and you have space to kind of spread out there's more stuff. So I really enjoy going to a gym and kind of seeing the familiar faces and kind of high fiving my pals that I see there. And benefit of gym too is if you join, like you'll get a freebie session or two with a personal trainer. So really work them to give to, you know, push them, to give you kind of a plan to start but really like if you're doing some kind of weight training three times a week, give it 30 minutes three times a week. I sort of feel like most people can do that. And when I say 30 minutes, like you know, the other day somebody said oh yeah, it's 30 minutes.
Anne Marie Chaker: 30:52
It's like yes, but make it 30 minutes where you're not like looking at your phone or staring at the wall or thinking about something else, like really make it that like I'm going to give myself 30 minutes and I'm going to be out the door and here's, I'm going to do these three or four exercises, you know, three sets of 10, and like get it done. But yeah, we're all guilty of, like you know, getting distracted or looking at our phone and wasting time, but, like you know, if you make it efficient, you're likelier to, you know, come back again and again and and stay on top of it.
Philip Pape: 31:25
I feel like uh, yeah, we're all about efficiency, because that that's one of the biggest excuses to consistency is the time and I like, how you mentioned, make it count. Right? I was listening to, I think Dr Mike is retell talking about training hard and people will say, well, I'm in the gym, you know seven days a week, bro, and you know I'm hitting, but of course they are on your phone. You're doing maybe one set. You know you're not training with relative. You know you're at like five or six reps shy of failure. You know you're not training hard. But if you could, those 30 minutes, like you said, three or exercises which I look at your content and it's what I would expect for somebody who knows how to lift. It's a lot of compound lifts and variations on those and a little bit of accessory work in there, because obviously you're a bodybuilder working on your physique. What are those three to four exercises in general for a new lifter?
Anne Marie Chaker: 32:10
So I am a big fan of, I love the squat. So having a barbell at home, I think is a good thing. You can also do with just dumbbells. But the squat, the deadlift, the chest press, you know, pull up, those are kind of like my meat and potatoes that I think of. And then from there, you know, then you can talk about rows or other push exercises, pushups and you know kind of work from there. But those really lead my workout. You know the hip thrust, those lead the beginning of every one of my workouts and you know, from there the accessory work is really done at the end.
Philip Pape: 32:54
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.
Lisa: 32:56
Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, philip Pate. With his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful little app called Macro Factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and he really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense.
Lisa: 33:33
And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me. So thank you, Villa.
Philip Pape: 33:40
I still hear a lot of people wanting to do the circuit YouTube workouts, and no judgment. I mean there's specific trainers and workouts that are very effective, but there is a culture correct me if I'm wrong where, especially I see it with women they want to do these kind of follow along circuit style, not very much rest. What are your thoughts on those types of workouts? Can they be effective or not?
Anne Marie Chaker: 34:05
I think you know we've been conditioned to think of exercise as like cardio, right, that you have to like end it in a breathless state of like puddle of sweat and want to die in the middle of the floor. And you know I none of my workouts looks like that. You know I hit an eight on the scale of one to 10 of the RPE rate of perceived exertion. The name of the game is to fatigue the muscle. If you're fatiguing the muscle, then you're doing it right and you know your body, you know when you hit that point. You know what an eight is on a scale from one to 10. And then you know you keep doing that, you keep lifting heavy things and hitting that eight, and that's what you know.
Anne Marie Chaker: 34:54
I'm fatiguing, but in a good way, and I finish and I don't feel like I'm dead. I feel like I've put in a good lift and I can move on with my day. Good lift and I can move on with my day. And then I am likely to do that again and again and again, consistently. That's the thing. None of my workouts is like kill yourself material. It's like it's a good lift and I do it consistently and that's it. That's not sexy, but that's what it is.
Philip Pape: 35:28
I mean you hit on at least three principles that are important. One you mentioned the eight RPE over and over again, which for anybody who's thinking about that would realize and understand. Strength. That means you're actually going to get stronger over time because to be able to hit that eight the next time in the gym, you've adapted and you've gotten stronger. Right, that's a great approach to training. What I want to do is connect that to a little bit back to the history again, maybe over the last I don't know century or so, when we think of the culture of women in powerlifting, which was kind of non-existent until I don't know 60s, 70s, you tell me, I'm not sure when women powerlifters even existed. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Anne Marie Chaker: 36:10
Women powerlifters. So there's a chapter in the book where I looked at strong women over time, starting with kind of even the term strong women we looked like in the 1890s. They were, you know, circus performers. They were you, you know, they were anomalies. They were almost like the bearded woman, like, oh, the woman with the muscles, who's like lifting the dumbbell, you know. So there was that.
Anne Marie Chaker: 36:36
And then over time there were, like these flickerage moments of women athletes. They're, you know, like the roller derby, you know it was this whole thing like the sport in the 1940s and 50s where, like, women were, you know, pushing and shoving each other around and they were, you know, on roller skates and they, you know, they were stars and people knew their names and they they were on television and you know, for whatever reason, that kind of fell out. There was the queen of Muscle Beach, pudgy Stockton. She was, you know, the first woman to wear a two-piece bathing suit and you know, she kind of like was the starlet in Hollywood of Muscle Beach and she was kind of the first female body. So yeah, so, like over time. Then what else did I write about? The women of glow, the, the women wrestlers, and then the dawn of you know female bodybuilders around that time.
Philip Pape: 37:38
So yeah, yeah that show glows is good too if you haven't seen, it was great.
Philip Pape: 37:44
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I know, I was just wondering about that, you know, because again, we keep tying it back to culture and identity and I mentioned Jen Todd because she was just in the local newspaper, for some reason, talking about lifting the Dinnie Stones over in Scotland. I hope I got that right and the identity and psychology thing is important, right, because here you are, you're a journalist. Maybe we could talk about did you not lift? Until when did you start lifting? How old were you?
Anne Marie Chaker: 38:20
So it's funny growing up, the first time I really hit a weight room was when I rode crew in college for a time and that was the first time that, like the weight room had come and I loved it.
Anne Marie Chaker: 38:28
I loved it, I felt like very at home and comfortable in it and I could see changes happening in my physique and and then that just kind of disappeared. Once I, you know, graduated from college, like started life, growing up, working, having a boss, paying off student loans, like that space in my life was gone and suddenly, like everything exercise related was about, like you know, losing weight and you know, or yoga or polite or things that, like I wasn't interested in. So this was a different time. But the weight room wasn't something that, like I come back to for decades. So when I started with my coach again when I, you know, in my 40s, it just felt like this wonderful homecoming. It's like, oh God, I remember this stuff and I did this stuff when I was in college and felt so good then. So it was just kind of like this wonderful, like coming home to my body.
Philip Pape: 39:25
So then, how it sounds like the relationship with building the physical strength like changes your psychological relationship with a lot of things, like with aging, with your capability, with your function, like how powerful is that? Because you're right, even people. I wasn't into athletics as a young person, so I just kind of found it later in life. But I equally see many, many dudes. For example, who I know, a guy. He was had interest from the Yankees for the major leagues when he was in college, you know, and he ended up being an engineer. And you know, you look at them 10 years later you would have no clue, right, cause he just got into that world, he stopped lifting, he stopped being active, and so you kind of lose it. How powerful is that, that connection?
Anne Marie Chaker: 40:09
that identity, especially for women. Oh, it's everything. It's everything. It gives you a core sense of capability and confidence and feeling like you can take care of yourself. And the wonderful thing is like, now that I'm a mom, I love that my daughters can see me doing this stuff in the basement and they don't think it's weird or anything. And they've like started kind of picking up a dumbbell or whatever and like becoming interested in doing it with me. And so, like you know, I'm not going to say they do a whole lot, they get bored very quickly but at least they're like you know, they're kind of like doing it with me and it's not weird for them, and enjoying like coursing around some weights and stuff with their mom, something I never got to do with my mom.
Philip Pape: 40:55
Yeah, it's not like they're having fun. That's the important thing at that age, right yeah.
Anne Marie Chaker: 40:59
Yeah.
Philip Pape: 41:00
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's an underrated thing is why I ask Cause it's until you do it you don't realize it. I mean men and women. You know, for me, just the idea of doing this hard thing and getting better. There's a lot of things we can't control in our life, right, but we can control the shaping our body and then I think it really does shape our mind. So it's really powerful to hear what you've been through.
Anne Marie Chaker: 41:21
We're in our heads so much. We're in here so much. It's important, I think, to make yourself do something hard every day to push yourself physically to lift heavy things and put them down and do that and it's part of like what makes us tick, like what makes us go. We shouldn't lose sight of that. It's a healthy thing, building your strength.
Philip Pape: 41:56
All right. So then, thinking about the societal relationship we started with and the history and kind of the phase we're in now, you know we've seen the explosions of, for example, CrossFit. Crossfit started around 2010 to become really popular. Then we have things like Orange Theory and Curves was around for a while. Right, Remember that. Are they still around? I don't know.
Philip Pape: 42:14
I think, they're still around Bodybuilding right, which you exemplify and powerlifting. So what's next? What's happening next? How do we get the message out? I mean, is this just a matter of women following the right content and going to the gym and just seeing how they feel? Like do you have a system, a process and approach that you'd recommend somebody you know do? Or is it more on the food side first, like, what are your thoughts there?
Anne Marie Chaker: 42:37
I think they go hand in hand. I think you know starting to think about things that you want to change. So, on the food front, maybe it's like maybe you are snacking on you know your kid's lunchbox or maybe you're eating out too much, but find the one thing that you think you'd like to change and start there nutritionally For workouts. I mean, I think you know starting with body weight is you know, if you have a body, you have a gym. You don't necessarily need to be lifting dumbbells. You can start light or start just getting used to the motion with your own body and starting in a corner house, picking three things Maybe one day it's an upper body, Maybe day two is a.
Anne Marie Chaker: 43:26
Chapter six of my book actually gives you a nice way to frame your week and think about picking exercises and what to do on each day of the week. So I would, you know, recommend starting. You don't have to know anything. So I recommend starting there and think about joining a gym. Pick a place that is within easy reach of your house that you're not going to be. You know driving 15 minutes or more, but you know within. You know 10, 15 minute drive and aim to go there.
Anne Marie Chaker: 43:55
You know, once or twice a week, maybe it's like, one day you do it at home, a couple of days you do it at this gym and just kind of like figure out your rhythm and see how that's working for you. And I think, getting out of the house. I think it's good to have a setup at home, but I think getting out of the house is really important. I think it's great. I like seeing new people, meeting people, exchanging words with people. I think it's very healthy. It's something that I really underestimated the power of community and you know needing each other. So I think I'm a big believer that gyms and, you know, workout spaces and studios can, can fulfill some of that for us.
Philip Pape: 44:32
I mean, it makes sense, the number one, the number one factor for wellbeing is relationships right.
Philip Pape: 44:37
Is having having social network, and obviously you gave people a framework for a lot of flexibility here and some really good ideas, right, like maybe you start at home, you maybe have the gym, maybe mix, maybe mix them both. Right, people don't often think out of the box like that, like I don't have to do it all at the gym, I don't have to do it all with weights. I love your quote. If you have a body, you have a gym. Like no, there's no excuse. But we're also not telling you like yeah, you know, you got to.
Philip Pape: 45:07
I love that, because one of the first things people when they ask me, like how should I train? And I start to give them principles and they're like, okay, what do I do with that? And it's like, okay, here's a simple program that'll get you started. And then we can tie that back to the principles that Anne-Marie talked about today and training hard and putting your you know, putting effort into it and making it count. Because why waste the time You're there to get some work done, Right, awesome, all right. So really good things, really empowering. Is there anything you wish I had asked that we didn't cover on this topic? I'm sure there's a few things, but anything that comes to mind that you wanted to answer.
Anne Marie Chaker: 45:41
No, I mean, I would just for women in particular. I would just, you know, don't underestimate your strength. You, I would just you know, don't underestimate your strength. You know you are an athlete, you have always been one. Even if you think you're not, you're not, you are. You multitask like nobody's business. Our bodies are incredible. We bring life into the world. We live longer than men. We are so strong stronger than men in a lot of ways that you know we didn't talk about, but that you mean like childbirth, that.
Anne Marie Chaker: 46:13
But also, you know, just like in this day and age, when we're obsessed with longevity, how interesting is it that since the dawn of time, across all cultures, women have lived longer than men? We still don't understand really why. And that's because, you know, we don't study women enough. We tend to study men. In terms of muscularity, you know women have different types of muscle fiber. More of quick response.
Philip Pape: 46:41
Like power, explosiveness, yeah Right. But women have more like endurance, yeah.
Anne Marie Chaker: 46:46
And we are able to withstand and endure more than men. So I mean, just women are like, incredibly strong in ways that we don't give ourselves enough credit for. So build and capitalize on that strength and stop trying to whittle yourself down. Power yourself, build yourself, and you're so worth it.
Philip Pape: 47:09
You are, and I've seen I've been surprised myself how many women, when they lift and kind of show me their recoverability and their ability to push reps and volume, like there is a an edge that women have with recoverability and and which almost means like you might have to even work a little hard in the gym sometime, cause you can handle more, which is fascinating. So you said you are an athlete and have always been one. We're going to leave it at that. That's a beautiful quote. Where do you want listeners to learn more about you, anne-marie? And you work besides a book, which I will definitely link in there as well as your sub stack, so I've already got you covered there.
Anne Marie Chaker: 47:40
Okay, my website is annemariechakercom and it's C-H-A-K-E-R-A-N-N-E, so A-N-N-E, mariechakercom, to learn more about who I am and what I'm doing and what I'm writing about.
Philip Pape: 47:55
Awesome. We'll include that and all the other links in there. Thank you again. This is a fun topic. I know we just barely scratched the surface. You guys pick up her book if you want to learn a lot more nerd out on that, or check her out on other podcasts as well. And, marie, thank you so much for taking your time and being on Wits and Weights.
Anne Marie Chaker: 48:10
Thank you, Philip.
