Should You Lose Fat, Build Muscle, or Maintain? (Nutrition & Training Audit) | Ep 315

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Feeling stuck between competing fitness goals? Unsure whether to focus on fat loss, muscle building, or maintenance?

In this episode, I share a real live recording of a 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment with Sam, who wasn't sure which direction to take her fitness journey next despite already establishing solid nutrition and training habits.

Sam has made impressive progress with her nutrition and training habits but struggles with competing goals: wanting to build muscle and improve bone density while maintaining the lean physique she worked hard to achieve. 

Having previously reached 14% body fat, she loved how she looked and felt, but found this difficult to maintain long-term. Now at 18%, she's hesitant about entering a building phase that might push her away from her aesthetic comfort zone.

You'll discover why the choice between building muscle and staying lean doesn't have to be binary, and how finding the right balance can transform both your physique and long-term health.

Main Takeaways:

• Why "aggressive maintenance" might be the perfect approach for building muscle without sacrificing leanness

• How to increase training intensity to improve bone density and muscle growth

• The importance of strength-focused training versus hypertrophy for overall health outcomes

• Why adding just 50-100 calories can make a significant difference in your body's ability to build muscle

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why you might be torn between competing fitness goals 
4:11 - Bone density, muscle building, and training intensity 
12:04 - Choosing between maintenance, fat loss, or muscle gain
15:44 - Why small calorie increases help with building muscle
19:44 - What is true maintenance?
21:51 - Improving bone density 

The Right Time to Cut, Build, or Maintain—and How to Know for Sure

You’ve cleaned up your nutrition. You’re training consistently. You’ve even dialed in recovery and started tracking data. But you’re still asking the one question that seems to haunt every lifter at some point:

What should I do next—lose fat, build muscle, or maintain?

This episode of Wits & Weights gives you a front-row seat to a real 15-minute coaching call that answers that exact question. Sam, a listener with solid habits and experience, wants to know what phase to pursue after already hitting 14% body fat, feeling confident, and then regaining a few pounds. The result? A powerful, nuanced strategy that might help you finally get clear on your own path.

Let’s break it down.

Why the “Next Phase” Dilemma Is So Common

Here’s the truth: you can always make a case for fat loss, maintenance, or building muscle.

• You might want more muscle mass and strength

• You might want to stay leaner and feel comfortable in your clothes

• You might just want to do something new to break the monotony

But the best decision starts with clarity. And that comes from:

• Knowing your long-term why (health? confidence? strength?)

• Understanding your set point and current biofeedback

• Accepting the trade-offs that come with any goal

In Sam’s case, she’s already experienced what 14% body fat feels like. It was empowering. But it also took work to maintain—and she wasn’t sure she wanted to live there year-round. That’s the kind of honest reflection that needs to happen before you jump into your next phase.

What Is “Aggressive Maintenance”—and Why It Works

One of the core ideas from this conversation is something I call aggressive maintenance—which is basically a lean gain or body recomp approach with the smallest caloric surplus possible.

• You’re training with intensity and progressive overload

• You’re tracking data like body weight, energy, and strength

• You’re increasing calories slightly—maybe 50–100 kcal—to provide just enough energy for growth

• You’re aiming for a slow drift upward in weight over several months (think 0.15% of bodyweight per week)

This is a sweet spot for people who:

• Are already lean or metabolically healthy

• Don’t want to do a full bulk but want to gain some muscle

• Prefer to avoid fat gain and are patient enough to play the long game

It’s also a great way to develop nutritional skills like managing food intake with more flexibility and learning how to eat for performance.

Why Training Intensity Matters More Than You Think

Sam mentioned she’d been active for years, but only recently started pushing intensity—moving from an RPE of 4 to more like 6 or 7. To truly grow muscle and build bone density (her goal after a recent DEXA scan), you have to train at a higher intensity.

That means:

• Moving toward RPE 8–9 on your main lifts

• Choosing weights that make you doubt whether you can finish the set

• Progressing your strength, not just doing more reps

This is where a structured strength program comes in. You don’t need to kill yourself with volume or chase soreness. You need consistent progressive overload with big compound lifts (squat, press, deadlift, pull). And you need to track it.

What About the Scale and Body Fat?

If you’ve ever hesitated to eat more because of the scale creeping up—even if you know you should be building—you’re not alone.

But as I told Sam, maintenance is a range, not a single weight. A swing of 2–3 pounds in either direction is totally normal. The goal during aggressive maintenance is to see a very slight upward drift over time, especially if strength is improving.

You’ll also want to measure other data points:

• Strength progress

• Waist and other measurements

• Recovery markers (sleep, energy, HRV)

• Subjective feelings of motivation and drive

The real transformation happens before it’s obvious in the mirror.

Why the Right Program Is Everything

Sam is following a functional bodybuilding program, which is great for movement quality and hypertrophy—but maybe not ideal for prioritizing strength and bone density. I suggested a hybrid or powerbuilding approach:

• Start sessions with a main lift (squat, bench, deadlift, press) in the 4–6 rep range

• Follow up with 1–2 variations or developmental lifts

• Finish with isolation work or accessory volume in the 8–15 rep range

This still builds muscle. But it prioritizes strength, which in turn supports everything else—including aesthetics.

If your bones and joints matter to you—and they should—getting stronger is non-negotiable.

Maintenance Isn’t Stagnation

Choosing not to cut or bulk doesn't mean you're spinning your wheels. In fact, maintenance done right is often the most strategic thing you can do:

• It teaches you to train hard without the distractions of dieting

• It improves your relationship with food and your body

• It sets the stage for better results in your next fat loss or building phase

And when you're ready, a small caloric increase (50–100 kcal) and a focus on performance can push you into a lean gain without sacrificing confidence, clothes that fit, or summer plans.

The key takeaway?

You don’t have to diet or bulk to make progress. You just need a goal, a strategy, and consistency.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

What should you do next? Build muscle, maintain your current physique or cut body fat? Today's episode will give you clarity, because you're going to hear a real-time rapid nutrition assessment call with someone who's made really impressive progress but now faces that familiar quandary what is my next phase? We are going to talk about an approach that honors both your aesthetic goals and long-term health, especially bone density. Approach that honors both your aesthetic goals and long-term health, especially bone density. You'll discover why intensity in the gym might matter more than calories, how to break through training plateaus without compromising results and deal with what feels like competing fitness goals so that you can move forward with confidence.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Ape, and today we are featuring another recording from a rapid nutrition assessment call with someone who is weighing different options for their next fitness phase. Now, these are just 15-minute calls that I offer for free to help people identify their key roadblocks, create a plan moving forward. It's not a sales pitch. You can use the link in the show notes anytime if you want to schedule one with me, and today's conversation with Sam perfectly captures the struggle that many of us face wanting to build muscle for health and strength while maintaining a lean physique that we worked hard to achieve. And what makes this really valuable, I think, is that, sam, she has already established some solid nutrition and training habits, yet she still needs guidance on an optimal path forward. We always need support and guidance at these forks in the road, no matter how much knowledge we have, no matter how much we've been there before. I have coaches, I have systems that help me as well, and I feel like these calls will give you a way to do that. So, whether you're currently in a similar position as Sam or you know, you'll be there one day. I think the insights from today's conversation are still going to help you navigate what to do next in your fitness journey with a bit more clarity.

Philip Pape: 2:08

Thanks, sam, for setting this up. I know you've been listening to the podcast a while, so you also have a lot of knowledge and experience. You mentioned that you're looking at counsel on what phase to go into next. Right, should you build? Should you maintain? Should you do fat loss? Um, and let's see. I, it says here, you've invested time in nutrition and fitness coaching with great results. Give credit for being dialed in in the behaviors, to the behaviors we care most about. So those would be the big pillars we talk about a lot and, um, I can make a case for each of the three options. We all can at any given time. Every day I'm thinking about these three options myself.

Philip Pape: 2:45

I'm like because are you the type of person who just loves to push a little bit and kind of vary things up?

Speaker 2: 3:06

nerd out on this stuff. I have really good systems in place and I frankly do get a little bored and restless. So I, like I probably too often kind of reconsider the plan, like, oh, does it need tweaking? Does it need tweaking? And a lot of times the answers just stay the course. But that's sort of what I want to talk about is like am I just being restless and a little, you know, do I need to just kind of settle in? But I do think it's helpful for me to hear what I'm settling into and kind of for the right reasons.

Philip Pape: 3:32

So yeah, and you hit the nail on the head by saying the right reasons, because usually what I come back to is the front of the loop and the back of the loop. The front of the loop is like envisioning your future self. Why are you doing this? What does it look like? What are you actually trying to achieve? Like, what is the real reason here, the purpose driving you other than short-term? Yeah, I like up a good project, which is also acceptable, and then and then, um, knowing that you've been through this before, you know there's some level of, I'll say, discomfort, um, in change. And so what's going to give you the most momentum toward that goal in the next, say, six to 12 months? So how does what resonates with you there?

Speaker 2: 4:11

I guess I'm I'm torn because one of your first questions always is, and ought to be, like what's your goal, what are you working towards? And kind of what's your why for that goal Right? Kind of what's your why for that goal right? Like fair questions, I think I'm torn because I want to build muscle and I particularly want to get my bone density score higher. I had a recent DEXA scan.

Speaker 2: 4:35

This is very much on my mind, so I know what's needed in order to do that. I need to push it in the gym more, just as some very quick backstory on gym training. So I would say for many, many years I've always been a very fit and active person, but for many years, kind of in my twenties and thirties I'm now in my late forties, I would say my RPE during workouts, bar cycling, hiking, that kind of stuff my RPE was always like three, four. You know it's kind of mild to moderate. I would say the last two to five years I've gotten much more comfortable with being in like a five six zone and now I'm looking, I know I need to move more into an RPE of like seven, eight and nine in the gym, particularly around strength training, if I'm going to move the needle on building muscle. So I've recently started following a program I really like I don't know if you know Marcus Philly functional bodybuilding.

Philip Pape: 5:37

Yeah, I know, I don't know that specific one Continue.

Speaker 2: 5:40

He's great. He's kind of an ex crossfitter who's really come up with a lot more kind of sane approach to weightlifting and a lot of mobility work. So anyway, I really like his program. I'm weightlifting currently four times a week, but I know the direction I need to go in has a lot to do with increasing intensity, so, like when it comes to the muscle building and the bone density piece, I kind of understand how to do that.

Speaker 2: 6:06

I think the part that feels like maybe I'm torn about is I also would like to have um, lower body fat than I currently do and, um, this is the part that I just sort of not sure about. I'm currently sitting at 18%. Last year I had done a fat loss phase and I got down to 14%. I felt amazing. I felt shredded, I felt strong, I liked how I looked in clothes, I felt confident, and that was a very hard place to stay.

Speaker 2: 6:41

In the course of a year I've put back on seven pounds, not through being slovenly or not moving. I've been constantly active and training, but I do think my body kind of likes to sit where it always kind of has and to go down from there requires a caloric restriction at being in a calorie deficit, but it comes with, I think, a pretty good feeling, and that's where I get torn. Okay, you might tell me, in order to put on muscle, you've got to go into a build. And I'm kind of sitting here going. I feel really ambivalent about that because I'm already at the top end of my weight range. If I just start kind of increasing calories, even in a slow and steady way, I might feel a lot of discomfort with that, and I so. Anyway, I've said a lot.

Philip Pape: 7:36

No, you said a lot of great things on a lot of really good points, so I took some notes, cause there's different things we should cover here. Um, let's start strategic. Let's start strategic. Let's start high level. When you talk about discomfort and top of your range and all of that, it's very personal, right? I always tell people how do you know you're ready? You just know that you're kind of uncomfortable where you are and you want to go the other direction. Having said that, one question I always like to ask is besides a seven pound weight gain, have you ever intentionally tried to build muscle, or even been training to build muscle and slowly gained weight?

Speaker 2: 8:09

besides that, no, I've never gone into a caloric surplus, um, I have only ever been at maintenance and trying to add muscle or been in a deficit and trying to add muscle trying to add muscle, or been in a deficit and trying to add muscle.

Philip Pape: 8:27

Okay, and you mentioned that when you got shredded it was hard to maintain, which means your body set point might float a little bit higher than that, which is totally normal, especially when you're talking 14%, which when I always subtract 10 to think of a man, it was like 5%. It's very lean again, not right or wrong, but it makes a lot of sense. So I would first ask and rule out or accept in is there a really driving reason to get shredded?

Speaker 2: 8:52

right now? Absolutely no, none of that. It was just a feeling of confidence that I haven't typically experienced day to day. I really like how clothes fit. I liked how I felt naked, frankly, like I just felt comfortable, strong and confident. So, but no, there's no kind of event, there's no particular anything that's significant.

Philip Pape: 9:25

Okay. So the next thing I want to get to because I want to come back to the three options maintenance, fat loss, muscle building is when you talk about training intensity. I like that because sometimes we feel like we have to bring out the intensity or, like you said, you're not feeling like you're necessarily training as intensely as you can and you understand that that's important. How do you know? So this is kind of just putting you on the spot how do you know you're training intensely or not?

Speaker 2: 9:53

One obvious side effect for me is getting a little sore at times. I would say when I've been weightlifting before exercising, kind of prior to this year, last year, I didn't experience soreness kind of ever, and now I'm trying to feel it a little bit more the next day as some biofeedback, like hey, your body responded to what you did yesterday. So that's one thing. I think the other thing is, mentally, when I'm choosing a weight that I'm doubting can I do that, that's usually an indicator that I'm stepping out of my comfort zone.

Philip Pape: 10:31

That's a good one.

Philip Pape: 10:31

No, I like that right, because sometimes it is about making the attempt regardless.

Philip Pape: 10:37

So what I think of when you say you're doing four days a week and it's kind of a bodybuilding thing, is um, when I work with a beginner who's never lifted before, for example, we're going to use like a very simple strength based program I deal with barbells if they have it, if not, we can use dumbbells, and I would I would actually use a program that involves pushing load and only load and not reps or rep ranges, not even rep ranges. Right Sets across like starting strength, something like that, only because it basically tricks you into getting more intense, like, involuntarily you are going to, it's going to get to a point where the RP is getting to six, seven, maybe eight or even nine. Um, assuming you don't push, you know the load too much from one session to the next, cause that's one of the variables. You don't push, you know the load too much from one session to the next, because that's one of the variables, and so have you. Have you done like a focus to strength?

Speaker 2: 11:26

training. You know, push the numbers type program A little bit. I wouldn't say program, but like. So part of the help and the coaching that I've gotten over the course of the past 18 months was I worked with a trainer so that I could feel what it felt like. Well, first of all I wanted to get like really good form, but I also wanted to feel what it felt like to go somewhere I hadn't been before with someone watching, because I was scared.

Speaker 2: 11:50

It brings up a lot of fear in me to go to like seven, eight, nine. So not a program per se, but I've, I've done, I've had some rehearsal with what it feels like to kind of push and get uncomfortable.

Philip Pape: 12:04

Okay, and now this segues then into the phases. Because if you're in a fat loss phase, you know a bodybuilding style program can be great because it's auto-regulated right, like you can adjust um, you can be, you can push intensely, even if your strength isn't necessarily increasing, and hold on to muscle. But that that's. That's. The goal is to hold on to muscle, which it sounds like you've kind of already gone through. That Um, I'm leaning, like for you more toward maintenance, recomp, man, maybe muscle building. I know you came with maybe some preconceived notions like he's going to tell me to gain Um, and obviously it I don't. I'm not going to tell me to gain Um, and obviously I don't. I'm not going to force you to do anything, obviously. But where, where, where the options are, are um maintenance right? If, if your body fat is in what you think of as a healthy range and your training is progressing, um, that could be a really beneficial place to be, because then you can, I'll say, chase the numbers in the gym. You can chase the progression in the gym as your like metric, and not worry about body weight, body anything really. Just, yeah, I take body measurements once a week, things like that, but you can just focus on the growth and the energy and the performance without pushing yourself to that level of, like my clothes don't fit, discomfort, self doubt, looking in the mirror and but also not worried about like, starving yourself to get to it. I'm not saying that's what you did, but there are sacrifices in both directions. Um, the pros being that you know the pros of that approach being you could potentially gain some muscle with minimal fat gain. It's very flexible for your life. You could just live and enjoy the summer which is coming up right without feeling uncomfortable in a bathing suit. Uh, if, if you have the occasional high stress or other demanding things in your life, it's, it's great Cause you're energized, right, yeah, the really only downside it's going to be a little slower. The visual changes are slower. It requires a little more patience. Um, I like to track even more precisely in maintenance, just cause it's, you know, sometimes hard to tell what's going on without doing that, but it's a great place to be. So that's one option.

Philip Pape: 14:00

The other option when we talk about muscle building is if you're willing to accept a little bit of fat gain, knowing that you can really pack on some more lean tissue so that later lean phases you can get, say, shredded at a higher body fat, with more food, with higher calories, with less impact to your hormones, less negative biofeedback. It's a short-term kind of trade-off for that, right, where the benefit that you go after and you focus on is on chasing the strength and size, and size in a good way, right, because I know some people and women you know chided that thought of bulkiness. You upgrade, upregulate your metabolism, you know you potentially eat more food which helps you develop that skill of doing that in a controlled way. Uh, the cons, of course. Now you're going to have a little more fat there and maybe psychologically run into some issues. So, having said all this, is there a place that you're leaning toward so far, or do we need to drill in a little bit more?

Speaker 2: 14:58

I guess it's one thing I feel a little bit uncertain about, and maybe the whole answer is like I've just never really pushed to a level of intensity where the muscle building is really like alive and well. So I think that like that is a place to really put my focus, like that is something I can control, is like regardless of you know, we're really only talking about like 50 more calories a week, if I do the math, kind of the way that I think you counseled prior clients to do um, which is not significant at all, but the bigger kind of lever it feels like right now is okay, really committing to the training yes and if I did that at maintenance, just to see, like, does that move the needle at all?

Speaker 2: 15:44

And the hypothesis is that a little bit more food would be the variable that would like move the needle a little bit more. Um, I still don't entirely understand why that's the case. If my protein is really high, which it is right now, and I'm training intensely, what would just a little bit more food do? Can maybe you address that piece, because that would help me make sense of the delta between maintenance and a little bit more.

Philip Pape: 16:16

Yeah, I mean, I think of the body as a system and you've got lots of mechanisms going on, like just now sitting there, right, you have so many mechanisms with your hormones, um, keeping you alive, with your organs. Organs actually are very hungry. People don't realize that, and when you're at, let's say, you're at true maintenance exactly the maintenance you need you have everything required to maintain homeostasis and that's where your body likes to be. And so if you go into the gym and you hit it hard, your body, let's say, has to hit a decision point. Do I devote some of the resources coming in to build that muscle by sacrificing storage of energy, which is like a survival mechanism, or do I just, um, maintain what's there and it's?

Philip Pape: 17:04

And here's the thing there's a lot of debates today about whether maintenance is really all you need. I think what it comes down to is the experienced folks, the trainers and lifters out there who are talking about this. They really know how to stay on that aggressive side of maintenance, which is kind of like. You mentioned 50 calories. To me, that's like almost maintenance, right, even though you might be more petite and a lighter body weight. That's why your calories needs and now it can go out and give you um, the, the amino acids you know, devoted to structural build, building of the muscles, and and it's a fine threshold. Because if you, if you're not quite at that threshold, it's still like maintenance and then your body is just kind of floating. And if it's well beyond that, you know, the more you go, the more you're likely to hit that maximum. But then you keep going and you're going to gain more fat, right? That's why we're trying to find that spot. So I don't know if that explained it for you.

Philip Pape: 18:04

It's, I guess not well understood as the exact mechanisms. Why?

Speaker 2: 18:08

No, but I kind of think about it almost from like a resources perspective, that like when resources are scarce, obviously your body is going to try to hold on to it. When resources are just plentiful enough, you're going to kind of stay as things are. But you kind of have to move into like a little bit more of this surplus for your body to be able to release and like to kind of change its focus somehow.

Philip Pape: 18:32

Yeah, it's a prioritization.

Philip Pape: 18:33

And also because you're leaner, you don't have excess energy and so your body, like the hormonal signaling, is even more errors on the side of homeostasis, of holding onto that energy.

Philip Pape: 18:46

So it's kind of like a slight disadvantage that leaner folks have. Right, if you were overweight or even just a little bit, had a little bit of extra fat, your body would perceive maintenance as still potentially a surplus because of the extra fat storage you know it's. It's all just a net energy system to think of it that way. So that's why I do like for you since you basically laid out your thoughts uh, an aggressive maintenance which would be like a lean gain of like uh, 0.15% body weight a week, let's say around that range which would gain very little scale weight over a meaningful period. Like you could do it for six to nine months and you're not talking about a lot of pounds, right. But you give your body the best chance to build. And what's neat about that too, sam, is even though how do I put this there's a chance for some recomp as well while you're doing that, right, meaning because you're in that safety point. Your body might then release some more fat anyway as part of that process.

Philip Pape: 19:42

So kind of interesting place to be.

Speaker 2: 19:44

Yeah, okay, um, and then just last question, in terms of like knowing I'm really at maintenance, I'm looking at my trend weight and so over the course of from Jan one to now, it has fluctuated within four pounds. So some weeks it's up, some weeks it's down. The weeks it's down it's often deliberate, it's not accidental. I'm like, oh, I didn't like the spike from a couple weeks ago. Let me kind of pull my calories down a bit. But within that four pound range, do we tend to think of maintenance as a range or do we tend to think of maintenance as, like within a pound, like a very kind of tidy little unit?

Philip Pape: 20:24

No, the former, yeah, the former. Um, two or three pounds plus or minus is a good. You know, the lighter you are, the smaller the absolute number, but, like for most people, it's like two to three pounds in either direction. So you're talking about like a six pound swing. So you've been a maintenance. That's what I would say. If I saw your purple graph, it'd be like kind of right in that window, right, yeah, yeah, in which case then, a dedicated lean gain should see a very slight drift upward over time. You know, um, the the what.

Philip Pape: 20:51

So here's an interesting, since you've never done this on purpose, um, one of the challenges you might run into is your metabolism responds upward and you fall behind and you're actually no longer in aggressive maintenance, and so you kind of have to get it and look at your expenditure and see how it's trending.

Philip Pape: 21:07

If it starts to take off like really steeply, I would usually advise getting ahead of that by eating more, you know, just to kind of avoid a plateau, because the plateau is just kind of wasting time. If you know, just to kind of avoid a plateau, cause the plateau is just kind of wasting time, if you will, at maintenance. Um, and then the training side. This is really up to you. But, um, if you've never done like a super meaningful strength training focus, I would. I would bias your program toward that where you have either full on main lift focus or a hybrid like what they'd call power building, which is main lifts with some bodybuilding but like focused on the heavier side, especially when your concern is bone density you know you're saying versus hypertrophy versus just hypertrophy or just like eight to 12 rep range type stuff, not to say.

Philip Pape: 21:51

I mean, you probably have heard the science by now. There's a lot of flex in all of that and you could have a hypertrophy bias. In a strength program, for example, you might have one lift that's a main lift and you you do it in like an eight to 12 rep range but then you'll progress over time to like a lower rep range as it gets heavier and it becomes strength, but then it cycles back to the higher rep range as it gets heavy. Um, you can do more of a pot, power building, which is like I'm going to do a main lift, heavy, I'm going to do a support main lift or developmental lift. So you might do like a squat and then a sumo deadlift and then two or three bodybuilding style, right.

Philip Pape: 22:29

Or you could do just straight up strength, where it's like I'm going to do three or four main lifts and variants of main lifts, all compound lifts. You know I'll do a, I'll do a squat, I'll do a sumo, I'll do an RDL, maybe one bodybuilding support thing and call it a day, but like they're all pretty heavy, right, how do you? How do you do? You have a trainer that's giving you a program now, or what are you following?

Speaker 2: 22:50

No, I'm. I bought Marcus program and so following it I move every day of the week, but I'm weightlifting four days. It does tend to be the higher rep range stuff which I was thinking about more like from an aesthetic perspective, looking like I lift, which is always like a fantasy, but you're saying from a bone density perspective, especially thinking about going heavier and not being as hemmed in by those higher reps.

Philip Pape: 23:20

Yeah, it's. It's mainly for that, because your strength and function and bone density is all I think. I think that's like priority number one. Did you listen to my recent episode, strength versus hypertrophy? Yeah, I mean, maybe re-listen to that Cause, then you kind of hear the logic and the progression of it yeah. Yeah, re-listen to that, because then you kind of hear the logic and the progression of it. Yeah, yeah, re-listen to that one.

Philip Pape: 23:44

Um it all works, I'll say, Um, but I like efficiency, you know. Yeah, yeah, Me too. If you can get super strong, it can then translate to having more confidence and higher lifts with your hypertrophy work Also. Doing it that way gives you even more idea of intensity and training close to failure. Yeah, Because when it's five reps for three sets and you can only do five reps, you're up there like RPE eight maybe and you feel it and you know what it's like. But it also won't necessarily make you sore. But for the first time you do it right, Because the body adapts quickly and maybe learning to not necessarily chase soreness but really chase growth is the way to go.

Philip Pape: 24:26

Anyway, I think you have a good. I think you have a good plan aggressive maintenance, um, strength focus. Obviously, if you need specific resources, I've got plenty. I can send you some of our workout programs or point you to some trainers that I like for that Um. And then, since you're already using macro factor, you know how to set that up. So I think you're golden. What?

Speaker 2: 24:44

do you think I feel great. I mean, I'm just basically listening to your podcasts as like a little coach in my ear and trying to make adjustments, kind of based on what I'm hearing and learning all the time. Um, so I'm going to, I'm going to try this out and I might come back to you at some point and just sort of say I think I'm ready to do more of a build, but I'd like to kind of partner and have somebody helping me do that. Just cause that every time. You know it's like the first time you do anything. Sometimes it's helpful to have a coach A hundred percent.

Philip Pape: 25:16

There's so many things. You don't know. You don't know.

Speaker 2: 25:18

That's where I like to put it.

Philip Pape: 25:20

So now you're now you're playing offense, now you've got some good data to get started. I'm really excited for you because it's you've got so much like potential there. I just know it, I can feel it. You have a great attitude and I think you're you're committed and you're going to make it happen. So awesome, sam.

Speaker 2: 25:34

Okay, awesome Phil. Thank you, I so appreciate your time.

Philip Pape: 25:37

Thanks so much. You know how to reach me and have a great day. Enjoy your time in New York and we'll talk soon. Thank you, sounds good, take it easy. All right, and that was my recording with Sam and if you found value in that, if you want your own personalized guidance, like Sam received for your situation, I invite you to go ahead and book your own free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment with me. Don't be shy, I'm a nice guy, I'll make you feel at ease.

Philip Pape: 26:02

It is not a sales pitch. Basically, it's us talking about the thing holding you back right now, whether it's nutrition, what to do next, your training, really anything and give you some targeted, actionable steps in a fast-paced 15 minutes. So to schedule it, use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click the button at the top. Again, no sales pitch, just some guidance from me to you to help you achieve your goals more efficiently. All right, so as we wrap up, I think the most exciting thing about my conversation with Sam and hopefully you got that as well is just focusing on the fundamentals, the pillars right, progressive overload, proper nutrition, consistency with your habits.

Philip Pape: 26:40

You're gonna transform yourself without anything radical. You just need to know a direction and then a consistent plan to get there, knowing there will be deviations along the way, and that's totally okay. Your metabolism's very adaptable, you're very adaptable. So get on that and also schedule your call if you think it'll be helpful. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that the most powerful fitness tool it's not in a supplement, it's not in the latest YouTube workout program. It is the intelligent application of effort where it matters most. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Your Secret Weapon for Fat Loss is NOT a Calorie Deficit or Macros | Ep 314

Is fat loss really made in the kitchen (combined with strength training)?

Or do we have it backward?

This episode examines why building muscle must be your first priority for any successful physique transformation... even before worrying about calorie deficits or macros.

You'll discover how strength training creates the metabolic foundation that makes fat loss dramatically easier, why muscle tissue acts as your body's "glucose sink" improving insulin sensitivity, and how this approach leads to better regulated hunger signals and more sustainable results than traditional dieting.

Let's challenge what the fitness industry teaches about weight loss and give you a more efficient starting point for your transformation.

Main Takeaways:

• Building muscle first creates a metabolic environment where fat loss becomes dramatically easier

• Strength training improves insulin sensitivity through the "glucose sink" effect

• The right approach allows you to eat more food while achieving better results

• Building a muscular foundation changes your entire relationship with nutrition and fitness

Episode Resources:

• Follow The B.Rad Podcast for more great content from Brad Kearns

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why the traditional approach to fat loss is backward
8:54 - Why fat loss shouldn't be your first priority
15:32 - How strength training cascades to better eating habits
19:38 - How lifting prevents metabolic disease
23:27 - How your metabolism adapts to increased food intake
31:44 - The Norwegian training revolution: eat more, train harder
39:35 - Why even the "perfect diet" is not enough without training
47:22 - Walking as essential daily movement
57:27 - How walking more improves health markers
1:03:03 - The simple approach to starting with strength training

Build Muscle First and Fat Loss Becomes Effortless

If you’ve ever been told that fat loss starts with a calorie deficit, I want to challenge that idea head-on.

Most of the fitness industry has it backwards. The typical prescription—“just eat less and move more”—assumes your body is primed to drop fat if you simply create a deficit. But that’s like trying to drive a car with no engine and hoping momentum will carry you forward.

The real secret weapon for long-term, sustainable fat loss is muscle.

Let’s unpack that.

Why Starting with Fat Loss Rarely Works

When most people decide to transform their physique, their first move is to slash calories and start doing cardio. But if your body lacks muscle mass, this strategy fails in two major ways:

1. You burn fewer calories at rest (low BMR).

2. Your body becomes more prone to muscle loss during dieting, which further lowers your metabolism.

This is why so many people hit plateaus, experience extreme hunger, and end up regaining the fat they lost—often with interest.

A Muscle-Centric Approach Changes the Game

Building muscle first does three things most diets can’t:

1. Increases your metabolic rate. Muscle is metabolically active tissue, meaning it burns more calories even at rest. As you gain muscle, your maintenance calories go up.

2. Improves insulin sensitivity. Muscle acts as a glucose sink, soaking up carbs and helping regulate blood sugar and hunger hormones like GLP-1 (yes, the same one targeted by Ozempic).

3. Regulates hunger. Strength training has a powerful normalizing effect on appetite. Once you’re building muscle and eating enough, fat loss phases become easier and don’t require white-knuckling through hunger.

This creates a metabolic environment where fat loss becomes almost effortless after you've built the foundation.

Lifting is Not Optional—It’s the Catalyst

Most of my clients are busy professionals in their 30s, 40s, and 50s who struggle with stubborn fat despite “doing everything right.” They’re walking, eating clean, even tracking food—but they’re not strength training effectively. Once we shift their focus to lifting heavy 3x per week and pull back on all the unnecessary cardio, things start to change—fast.

You can’t sculpt a pebble. Build the rock first.

Even if you’re already carrying excess body fat, lifting should still be your top priority. Yes, even before dieting. Because that muscle you build now protects you from fat regain later.

Training First, Then Diet—Not the Other Way Around

Here’s what this looks like in practice:

• Start with a baseline phase: two months of strength training, tracking intake, and letting your metabolism adapt upward.

• Watch your hunger, sleep, energy, and biofeedback improve as training becomes a part of your life.

• Then, if needed, enter a modest fat loss phase—eating more than you ever thought possible while still dropping fat.

This is why many of my clients never diet again after doing it right once. They build the metabolic machinery first, then tap into it when it's time to lean out.

Why Cardio Isn’t the Answer

Cardio isn’t bad. But most people overuse it, doing long sessions of steady-state or HIIT thinking it’ll burn the fat off. What actually happens?

• You burn relatively few calories compared to the time investment.

• You increase cortisol and stress, especially in women dealing with hormonal issues.

• You risk muscle breakdown unless you’re lifting alongside it.

Strength training, on the other hand, is cardio for many people. It spikes your heart rate, stimulates your muscles, and gives you the “afterburn” effect (excess post-exercise oxygen consumption). Add in walking and optional sprints or sled pushes and you’re golden.

Your Body Wants to Be Strong—Let It

Muscle isn’t just about aesthetics or performance. It’s your long-term insurance against aging, diabetes, insulin resistance, and frailty. It makes eating more food possible without fat gain. It improves body image, energy levels, and even mental health.

You don’t need to chase your VO₂ max. You don’t need endless cardio. You need to get strong.

And once you do? Fat loss gets easier, hunger becomes manageable, and you’re no longer stuck yo-yoing between crash diets and burnout.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You've been told that fat loss is made in the kitchen, with a calorie deficit combined with strength training to hold on to your muscle. But what if that's completely backward? What if building muscle must come first in your transformation journey if it's really going to work? Your metabolism, your insulin sensitivity, your hunger signals and, yes, your ability to shed stubborn fat is tied into how much muscle you have, and most fit pros aren't going to tell you this because it challenges the industry's eat less, move more mantra and what they're trying to push, which is generally weight loss. Today's episode reveals why strength training creates the metabolic engine that makes fat loss almost effortless by comparison and gives you a framework to finally get those lasting results. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:04

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today's episode is something special because I recently had the opportunity to be interviewed on the Be Rad podcast with Brad Kearns, former world-ranked professional triathlete, guinness World Record holder and New York Times bestselling author. And this is around the time. I read his book, co-written with Mark Sisson, called Born to Walk, and he had me on his show because we wanted to tackle one of the most persistent misconceptions or myths in fitness the idea that calorie restriction and diet should be your first priority for fat loss, or indeed that quote unquote fat loss itself should be the first thing you do. Instead, we explored why building muscle through strength training is the foundation upon which all successful body transformations are built. So why wait? This discussion aligns perfectly with what I've been teaching for years on this show that a muscle-centric approach creates the metabolic conditions for easier fat loss. Approach creates the metabolic conditions for easier fat loss, for better health, for long-term sustainability.

Philip Pape: 2:09

Rather than create another entirely new episode on this topic, I wanted to share this conversation because I essentially hit the juggler Is that the term? I went straight for the juggler when it talks to the principles that I regularly discuss anyway, and I think it's a great encapsulation of that. If you enjoy this episode, all I ask is go ahead and hit follow on Wits and Weights if you haven't already, and that way you'll catch every episode when they come out on Mondays, wednesdays and Fridays. And then go ahead and follow Brad's podcast Be Rad with Brad Kearns, and I love his podcast because of the aspect he takes when it comes to cardiovascular fitness and endurance, especially from the perspective he comes from. All right, so here we go. Here's my conversation with Brad Kearns about why building muscle first is your secret weapon for effective fat loss. Philip Pape, we are here. We are here. Good to see you again, brad.

Brad Kearns: 3:02

I had so much fun joining you on your fabulous podcast Wits and Weights, where we talked about the book Born to Walk and a broad-based approach to functional fitness, and so I said we got to get over to B-Rad and get in deep with the great work you're doing over there, especially as you describe your, I guess, quantified and analytical approach to proper fitness protocols. And I've always been kind of a intuitive style athlete and not getting deep into a regimented approach because I know that doesn't work for me from experience. But I also realize when I'm performing or pursuing these complex goals, like trying to be a sprinter in the old man's division and dealing with minor injuries and aches and pains and things that set me back that you really have to be careful and strategic with your dispensation of energy in order to progress with fitness. So I thought we could get into that background mission statement of your podcast and then some of the the fun things that you've learned as a host and fun topics that really have resonated with your, your listeners. How's that for an intro man?

Philip Pape: 4:13

yeah, man, that's a great intro. It's funny. I just heard you talking on your show about um you were talking to one of the greatest runners of all time and how she has an intuitive approach. And I get these comments all the time from folks that say, well, I'm not a data person, I'm not um, I'm not an engineer, I don't think that way. And yet I've talked to experts who are professional bodybuilders, competitive bodybuilders, who had one point in their life where they said, look, I need to buckle down and use some sort of tracking or measurement just to know where I am and to calibrate where I am first, and build that skill and build that intuition, and then, at some point in their lives, they have that level of intuition that they don't need to do it anymore. So I hear what you're saying, man. I could go both directions and the spectrum is wide and I'm all about flexibility. So, yeah, let's get into it.

Brad Kearns: 5:01

Yeah, you were talking about Shelby Houlihan, the American record holder at middle Distance, who just came back from a four-year layoff, and I was really blown away about how she mentioned that intuitive approach and just getting out the door and running at whatever pace she felt like. And so here's like one of the fastest female runners in the world who, if you were training with her, you'd be like how fast are we going today? I don't know, we'll see. And it was really a profound insight. But at the same time, she's working with the greatest coaches on the planet who have a very, very refined and sophisticated approach.

Brad Kearns: 5:35

I had Grant Fisher's coach on my show, michael Scannell, old friend of mine, who I used to race with in a professional duathlon, and he reported how they sat down in November and plotted out his path to the Paris Olympics and where he had the magnificent performance of winning two bronze medals in both the long distance events of 5,000 and 10,000. But he had every workout planned from November to August 4th for the first race and August 9th for the second race. And that was fascinating and he said he was so structured and so focused that he hit basically every single workout. So that's the sign of a really well-informed training program If you can lock in and perform every workout as desired. But of course, for the average recreational enthusiast that's listening to wits and weights or trying to get out there and stay fit and as well as coach soccer and perform in the in the corporate setting, uh, that's when we have to. We're forced to have a more fluid approach, but we still might benefit from that foundation of structure and quantification yeah, I think there's a place for guardrails.

Philip Pape: 6:40

while being simplified and also the the intuitive aspect in terms of, let's say, your biofeedback, how your sleep is, your stress, your digestion, your hunger, those things can be quantified, even though they're subjective, and so you're kind of melding the two together just to give yourself an idea of where the heck you're landing right now, to even make a decision from and have informed data.

Brad Kearns: 7:05

What kind of stuff is important, like if someone came in as a new client who's proclaimed a desire to get fit and they're doing a little bit of this and that, but now they want to get into a program.

Philip Pape: 7:15

Yes, I help with clients with strength training, body composition, fat loss, and it's funny because we do. We have a lot of the same approach when it comes to getting stress off of the body through potentially reducing the amount of cardio and, uh, how much you're working out and also training in a way that gives you more recovery. Especially as we age, people complain about, you know, their joints, um, and injuries and health issues, and they're stressed because of life and their family. They have families, like you said, because of life, and they are family. They have families, like you said, gen pop, we have, you know, two jobs or running a business and parents, and so, um, when we start, I I just like to spend two months baselining what you're doing and giving you your own self-awareness of how much you're eating, what you're eating, the composition of the food, some of the micronutrients and the fiber, um, how the movement and the training you're doing affects your recovery, because I don't want to say, hey, here's the best program for you on day one if I don't even know you yet.

Philip Pape: 8:10

I do an intake but I don't really know. I want to see how your expenditure and your metabolism responds to the things you're doing. I want to understand how your hunger and your sleep responds, because after two months you may be in a great position to build muscle rather than try to diet and lose fat and have the best outcome that way. We just don't know until we have that initial, you know data set. So having a coach to guide that uh, you know with you, it's kind of like the analogy you said with these elite athletes. Even a gen pop person can have that person in their corner and take off some of the mental stress and even emotional stress, right when they can be the person that you can unload to, and all you got to do is just enter the numbers and your coach can kind of help you understand what the numbers mean and then you can make decisions from there.

Brad Kearns: 8:54

What is a gen pop person?

Philip Pape: 8:58

Oh, what do you mean Like general population?

Brad Kearns: 9:00

I just oh gen pop Okay, I thought you were going to say like gen X, gen Y and gen pop, like for old old mans or whatever. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 9:07

Okay, gotcha General population Is dropping excess body fat, the preeminent goal that you see the intent is the person's thought when they come to me weight loss or building muscle and we have to reframe it, and that's one thing we can get into is we reframe weight loss away from scale weight and to body composition, metabolic health and having a muscle-centric approach to health and physique.

Brad Kearns: 9:37

So maybe you can go deep on that term. What does it mean to you?

Philip Pape: 9:41

The term body composition.

Brad Kearns: 9:43

Muscle-centric approach oh, muscle-centric approach?

Philip Pape: 9:44

Oh, muscle-centric approach, yeah, so you know, we think I guess we talk about being over fat or obesity being a concern in society and for sure it is, I'm not going to deny that, and there are a lot of extrinsic factors, environmental factors behind that. But what I find is people are attempting to lose weight or lose fat as the predominant way that they get quote unquote healthy, kind of like they. Many people think running or cardio is the predominant way to get healthy or lose fat. We know that's not the case.

Brad Kearns: 10:11

Burning calories.

Philip Pape: 10:12

Yeah, yeah, burning calories. And until you've spent some time understanding how to train properly to add some strength and muscle to your frame, you can't maximize the health that you're going for, even if it is a great physique, because you haven't built the foundation, so you can't sculpt a pebble, is the analogy. I like you can sculpt a nice big stone, but you can't sculpt a pebble, so you've got to build that at some point. If you've got excess weight to lose or excess fat to lose from a metabolic health perspective, fine, we can get there, it's not a big deal, but at some point you then have to build muscle.

Brad Kearns: 10:48

It seems like someone who is succeeding building muscle is going to shed excess body fat in the process.

Philip Pape: 10:55

Exactly that's the secret that I don't like you don't know what it's experiencing.

Brad Kearns: 10:59

We gave it away. All the other trainers are listening, going. Oh, I'm going to redo my branding now.

Philip Pape: 11:04

Yeah, right, no, and that's the thing. You can't, you don't, you can't, you can't know that until you experience it, we can talk, talk about it all we want on our podcast, and I do, brad. Like half of my episodes in the last month are probably about why you should gain weight, you know, or why you should build muscle, and it's not always about gaining weight on the scale, brad right. It is really about energy and fueling yourself and performance mindset, rather than even a physique or a scale mindset. And once you're focused on performance, all the other things start to come in mind. Whether you're trying to lose fat or not, like you said, you will start to lose fat. It gets easier. Your metabolism increases because of the extra muscle mass, the extra weight you're carrying around, the lower stress, the higher protein, the higher fiber. It all aligns really well.

Brad Kearns: 11:51

It also seems like right now, as I am a member of the 60 plus division I just turned 60 recently and so I'm looking around at my peers and I have a lot of lifelong friends who have had extreme or a decent or good devotion to athletics and fitness and all that but it seems like we're now kind of turning a corner, hitting a fork in the road, where the first and foremost objective is to build or preserve that lean muscle mass and muscle strength and not so concerned primarily with keeping the waistline down. But I think you know the dad, bod and the busy working parent, male or female, from ages 25 to age 50 or what have you, is kind of just not eating too much food and keeping your pants size the same. But now it seems like, you know, we have an intense focus and a desperate need to keep that muscle on, to the extent that we might even, you know, rethink some of these strategies that maybe have been successful to manage caloric intake.

Philip Pape: 12:59

Yeah, are you familiar with Jonathan Sullivan? Some people call him Sully or Dr Sully. He wrote the barbell prescription and he uses a term called the athlete of aging, to that exact concept. If we think of life as not an inevitable decline but really an athletic pursuit where we want to thrive as a human and again, this is why I resonate with your message so hard, is that that's what we want. When I'm 95, I still want to be deadlifting, like I want to die doing a deadlift. You know what I mean, like whatever that means to you.

Philip Pape: 13:31

And it hits really close to home for me, brad, because I've had two situations just in the last two weeks with family members one who passed away after being in a nursing home for a number of years and declining very quickly because he just wasn't mobile. He could have been but he kind of, I'll say, gave up on life. I hate to say it that way, but it was. It was sad, you know, and he was in a wheelchair and then the health issues accelerated, um, because of it. And then another family member who went to the hospital with heart issues. And it's, it's the same story we've heard so many times, the predominant story we hear with older folks of polypharmacy right Taking so many medications on top of each other, of heart conditions, of metabolic disease, type 2 diabetes, all of these age-related diseases, even some cancers, could all be prevented with a little extra muscle mass, a little more movement and just watching what you eat and really enjoying the process too.

Brad Kearns: 14:28

So, when you have an intake or a thousand of them, what are the prevailing themes Like? What do you think is the biggest and most egregious offense to healthy living and longevity?

Philip Pape: 14:43

That's a good one. The most egregious offense.

Brad Kearns: 14:46

So is it the junk food diet or is it the, uh, you know, sedentary baseline daily pattern, that kind of thing?

Philip Pape: 14:54

Yeah, I mean, I guess the red flags are going to depend on the person, but it generally is the lack of training or training properly. So we're talking lifting weights and I know there's kind of this triumvirate, um and I know you talk about as well of you know lifting heavy things and then moving a lot, and then some sort of explosiveness, right, whether it's the sprinting or the player, what have you? Um, people are not training and so no matter what they do with their diet, it's not going to matter, because they're going to lose muscle. That's my perspective. So when someone comes to me and says I want to fix my diet, I don't care about lifting weights right now, I'm like, let's flip that around. Let's flip that around.

Philip Pape: 15:32

If I can get you in the gym, it's going to cascade to your desire to fuel what you're doing in the gym, to want to eat healthier. You're going to have better regulated hunger signals year. You're going to have better regulated hunger signals. You're going to have greater insulin sensitivity, all the other things that lead to the eating side becoming much easier. And guess what? You'll have a little more resilience, even if your diet isn't so great, like at least to start, until we start to optimize it going forward.

Brad Kearns: 15:55

Yeah, I think what you just said is hugely underrated. Like people do not make that connection, they you know the diet industry is massive and all the programming and things we've heard our whole life to where you know you just got to manage your portion sizes and fast a little bit or try keto or do this or do that. But then maybe like describe in more detail how going and hoisting some weight around is going to optimize your dietary habits.

Philip Pape: 16:24

Yeah, yeah, this is. This is a great topic, I mean, I think so. There's multiple reasons for it. The big one is, I think, the hormones and the insulin sensitivity from lifting weights, which is extremely underrated because we know that insulinemia you know the term.

Brad Kearns: 16:42

Hyperinsulinemia is chronically excessive production of insulin.

Philip Pape: 16:45

Yes, yes yes, always trying to suck out the technical terms which is related to cortisol, which is related to the lack of muscle mass, is extremely important because muscle is a thing for glucose, right.

Philip Pape: 16:56

So the more muscle mass you have, the better you can utilize the carbs that you're eating. And I always talk about carbs in the context of how sedentary you are, because you can't simplify carbs being good or bad. Right, you can't just say, well, carbs are bad. Well, if you're sedentary for sitting on the couch all day, the more carbs you eat, sure, it's just going to go to fat storage it really any excess of calories are, but carbs especially right. And there's inflammation and et cetera.

Philip Pape: 17:21

And quite the opposite happens when your strength training is that your body wants to suck those carbs up, both the ATP and then the glycolytic process that comes after that from long training sessions, from having the muscle mass. It's just going to suck it up like a sponge. That's sort of the way I like to say it. And so you need those carbs. You want those carbs. Where was I going with this In that, from a metabolic and insulin perspective? For food, it means that you can have a very flexible diet, both in terms of macronutrients and calories. You can be fueled up, you can eat more food and be living the vast majority of your year, not dieting. That's what I wanted you to get to is where you're almost never dieting, isn't that great.

Brad Kearns: 18:06

I mean, I hope people do. You really get this insight deeply? You powered through that with a great explanation and the sync concept. So I want people to fully understand. When you have a lot of muscle mass on your body or you're stimulating the muscles in a workout, the, the glucose is going into the muscle to refuel and replenish. That's insulin's job is to restore energy into storage depots we know about how it does that into the fat stores, but it's also doing that to help, you know, replenish and recover your muscles. Compare and contrast to someone who's sitting around. What happens to that glucose? Well, in the case of the trends of modern lifestyle in America and across the world, you're gonna get type two diabetes over years and decades because the glucose just flows around in your bloodstream. Insulin is produced, that mechanism gets exhausted. That's that hyperinsulinemia, and then you have elevated glucose and elevated insulin and that's the disease pattern of life. So it's sort of you know, the reason that going and lifting weights is important is so you don't get diabetes.

Philip Pape: 19:18

In a nutshell, and, in the short term, take advantage of the fact that it, you know it suppresses those postprandial glucose spikes, blood spikes, which then affect your hunger signals. You have much better regulated satiety. All this GLP-1 talk about the weight loss drugs. Well, your body has that naturally and strength training can trigger it Without side effects.

Philip Pape: 19:38

Yeah, it can trigger it, which intends to decline with age, which is one of many reasons people have more and more difficulty as they age, unless you're training. So to me, lifting weights, I don't want to say it solves everything, but it is kind of the magic pill to a lot of these issues that people have with age. And Brad, I've had clients who are very well muscled and they need to lose some body fat because they're very over fat as well. But they have much better health markers than somebody with less muscle who's overweight. And that just tells you something right there that there's a huge mitigating factor, that muscle mass. That can't be underrated.

Brad Kearns: 20:15

I'm kind of curious how someone gets to that point, because if you are a fit enough person to carry around an impressive amount of muscle mass, why the heck do you still have a gut there? And it must be just horrible dietary choices that override all these beautiful insulin sensitivity benefits of lifting the weights every day.

Philip Pape: 20:37

Yeah, I mean. There's multiple reasons. One is intentional in the powerlifting world, People intentionally gain a lot of weight to push more lifts and get bigger numbers.

Brad Kearns: 20:46

Yeah, physics yeah.

Philip Pape: 20:48

That's all it is. Yeah, yeah, you get more cross-sectional area. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. The allometric scaling that occurs and then the absolute numbers that scale up once you gain more weight.

Philip Pape: 21:00

And, frankly, just, some people never had a great diet to begin with, even though they lift weights. It doesn't. They're not mutually exclusive. It's very possible to have a poor diet and still have been able to lift and build muscle over time, as long as you have the just net fuel in your body. It's not efficient.

Philip Pape: 21:16

But guys come to me and they're like hey, I've tried carnivore, I've tried this, I've tried that. And we we work together say look, all you need is a good, nutritious, nutritious, whole food diet. Look at your protein, look at your fiber. You're still going to have plenty of calories coming in, but we're just going to, you know, track what's going in your body and we're going to regulate that so that you can drop some of that fat and then get back to a nice lean state and then you're good to go. Um, I'm right now in a gaining phase, brad, I am. I mean, you can see me just by top. It's not like I'm. I'm fat, right, uh, but I do that on a regular basis, I will gain 20 pounds and then lose 20 pounds, but with the intent to build muscle over time.

Brad Kearns: 21:56

Uh, so describe how and why you initiate these gaining phases.

Philip Pape: 22:01

Yeah, for efficiency.

Philip Pape: 22:03

So if you gain right now the research based on the latest studies and meta-analysis, which are quite recent there've been maybe four or five studies in the last five years that have given us the most of this data Gaining weight at around, let's say, 0.3 to half a percent of your body weight a week for a beginner or intermediate is kind of the optimal level where you're going to gain the most muscle without gaining too much fat in terms of time duration, and it's going to depend on the individual.

Philip Pape: 22:32

So if you've done it before, you may know your individual numbers and they might be higher or lower. If you kind of know that, let me tell you I have spreadsheets for all this stuff, right, you know we have a numbers guy where you can plug in numbers and know exactly how efficient your muscle gaining was, so that next time you go in a bulk you could either go faster or slower, um, but then you do that and now you're talking six, nine, maybe 12 months where you add a significant amount of muscle, and we're talking multiple pounds, right, five, 10 pounds of muscle, uh, and then you can do a fat loss phase and then you can effectively sustain that. The alternative is doing a more intuitive approach and kind of maintaining your weight and building muscle slowly over time. It's just going to take a lot longer to add those slabs of meat to your body. That's all.

Brad Kearns: 23:16

So are you systematically over-consuming calories when you're in the gaining phase and as well as doing hypertrophy style workouts?

Philip Pape: 23:27

it's exactly what it is. Yeah, you're in an intentional calorie surplus. It's not crazy, it's not a dreamer bulk, as they would call it back in the day, where power lifters you know go in and order you know ten cheeseburgers and like three orders of fries, it is maybe 200 calories a day surplus, right, something like that for most people.

Brad Kearns: 23:45

That's what everybody eats, Philip, Come on Just naturally right. But they're not training. That ain't no surplus. We're in a lifelong surplus yeah.

Philip Pape: 23:53

Yeah. What happens, though, is if you're doing it consistently and by consistently I mean because you're tracking, you don't fall too low or you're unintentionally not in a surplus your expenditure, your metabolism will tend to ramp up quite a bit. Hundreds of calories, like for most people. For women, I'll tend to see anywhere from like 100 to maybe 400 or 500 calorie increase over the months. For guys, it could be 1,000. It could be 2,000. It's insane. And you're eating. You know where you start eating.

Brad Kearns: 24:22

2,600, 2,700 calories. You might end up 4,000 or more, Like I'm up to 4000 now. It's a lot of food, man. It's a lot of food. So your metabolism is increasing as a consequence of both eating more food and doing these strenuous workouts.

Philip Pape: 24:41

Yes, and gaining more weight? Right, Because you're carrying around more your BMR is higher. And probably metabolic adaptation, that it's like opposite metabolic adaptation, where your body is just so flooded with energy it tries to be as inefficient as possible in burning calories.

Brad Kearns: 24:57

How so.

Philip Pape: 24:57

Kind of the opposite of how. So what do you mean? How so?

Brad Kearns: 25:02

I mean you're over-consuming calories.

Philip Pape: 25:04

So what is the adaptation that's occurring where the body's trying to yeah, I mean, I believe it's just your body is not trying to hoard calories like it would during a fat loss phase, when, I mean at the mitochondrial level, you're even conserving energy. The hormones get downregulated. I think it's just the opposite of that, right? So I don't know to what extent that's the case. I think it's just the opposite of that. So I don't know to what extent that's the case. I don't think we have science that says it's.

Brad Kearns: 25:28

These are the exact components. Yeah, it's a fascinating, fascinating topic. Well, you know, it happens and the science is uh, what your scale says? Uh, three months later, because theoretically, you would gain um way more than you did if you just counted calories and had the same lower metabolic rate, right?

Philip Pape: 25:53

Right, exactly that's where you would hit plateaus if you weren't tracking that and staying on top of it. You basically have to over-consume by more each week as your body is ramping up.

Brad Kearns: 26:01

It's the opposite, uh, the traditional approach to uh fat loss, where you're lowering calories, lowering calories and a lot of times uh, that doesn't work so well, as we know.

Philip Pape: 26:13

Exactly. I'll say it's not a symmetrical problem. The fat loss side of the equation has lots more detrimental potential when you're chasing down into a deficit, because now getting to zero means you starve to death. Going the other way is a bit of a different situation. It's more of you're maybe trying to stuff yourself and I don't like to put it that way, because if somebody gets to that point, we need to talk and figure something out that is more sustainable. But it's not a symmetrical problem, if that makes sense.

Brad Kearns: 26:43

Well, also, what's interesting is, I assume you're choosing exclusively healthful, high satiety, high nutrient-dense foods, and so it's not the cheeseburger and the milkshake diet and therefore, like you say, it's a ton of calories. It feels like you're a chore to eat that much food because you still have optimal appetite and satiety signals, but you're overriding them in order to add some more muscle.

Philip Pape: 27:12

Yeah, that is actually a big challenge is when you have that high volume food and you're trying to gain weight. Now, if we think of whole foods, there are calorie dense whole foods right Like nuts. So that is where you start to incorporate more nutritious foods that are also calorie dense.

Philip Pape: 27:29

Liquids like a smoothie, yeah pre-digested things like that, and you know what. For flexibility, though, I do think it's okay to have maybe five, 10% of your diet. Just I don't want to say free for all, but it's there for some flexibility. I know we may not be on the 100% same page there, but in my view is, when people restrict completely, they tend to binge, they tend to go the other direction and, honestly, when you have everything else dialed in, you're, you're. You're pretty good from that perspective. The other thing, what's interesting you mentioned hunger. Your hunger signals regulate and then what I find happens is you're really good at telling whether your body needs more calories before you know it, like before the data tells you, because you can actually get hungry in a gaining phase. If you're starting to fall behind your metabolism, I'll have clients say why am I hungry? I'm eating 3,500 calories. I'm always eating 20. I'm like because your body is hungry.

Brad Kearns: 28:24

Yeah, that's fascinating, even though you're eating a lot of calories, yeah.

Brad Kearns: 28:27

Yeah, and you're turning up these important dials. I've talked about this a lot on my podcast referencing the work of Dr Herman Ponser, author of Burn, and talking to Jay Feldman four times the Energy Balance podcast, where he has this bioenergetic model of health where the more you consume in nutritious foods I'm talking exclusively about that, not shoveling junk down your throat but when you consume an optimal or even, in your case, like an aggressive amount of calories, you're going to turn up the dials of reproduction repair, growth and locomotion. I wonder if you experience certain symptoms like you're a little warmer or you're more fidgety at your work desk because your knee's tapping, because you have so much energy and so much energy to burn. I'm pleased to present B-Rad grass-fed whey protein isolate super fuel, the absolute highest quality all-natural protein supplement infused with creatine that delivers everything you need to optimize your appetite for fat loss, recover quickly from workouts and build and maintain lean muscle mass the single most important attribute for aging.

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Philip Pape: 30:54

Yeah, that's a really good one. You definitely get hotter. I hear that all the really good one. You definitely get hotter. I hear that all the time. It's like you get hotter. And so for women who are in peripost menopause and they have hot flashes already it's kind of an interesting one, although some of those symptoms get mitigated when they're actually building muscle. Just ladies who are listening, just so you know it's kind of interesting. But yeah, the fidgeting is another one. That definitely explains why your metabolism takes off like a rocket, because everything stacks on top of itself. You actually move more unconsciously, and this leads to the joke about powerlifters trying to do as little as possible when they're not lifting weights so that they don't have to eat even more. Right, it's kind of a joke. Right, we want to be active, we want to be walking. It's great for a joke. Right, we want to be active, we want to be walking, it's great for recovery, etc. But there is a long-time joke about powerlifters just like acting like sloths between their lifting sessions.

Brad Kearns: 31:44

Well, what's really interesting about that is now emerging research in the endurance athletic world, especially with these Norwegian triathletes who are coached by Olaf Alexander Boo triathletes who coached by Olaf Alexander Boo, a scientist with a scientific approach and we're now realizing that the consumption of calories as many as possible is fueling a more ambitious training regimen than we've ever seen, whereby these guys can go faster, for longer and train harder than any triathlete from back in historical times.

Brad Kearns: 32:17

And it's really fascinating to me because I felt like I stuffed my face every day for those nine years of training and traveling on the professional triathlon circuit and we always had to have food around us and I traveled with a bag of food, but it was the only way we could sustain a really ambitious training regimen.

Brad Kearns: 32:35

And we also learned from like old time bodybuilding culture that the limiting factor for Mr Universe to not have even bigger muscles, or Arnold in the movie Pumping Iron, the limiting factor was not that they couldn't train another hour a day and go from five hours a day to six hours a day. The limiting factor was the ability to digest and assimilate calories, and your stomach will explode if you go over 7,000 calories every day for six months time requiring you to down-regulate your training. But somehow the triathletes who are training eight hours a day now they're inhaling so much food, not only in real life but during exercise, that they're able to go really fast and be in the carbohydrate burning heart rates, rather than this huge emphasis we've always had at endurance of, like you wanna be a good fat burner and you wanna lower your heart rate, so you're burning emphasizing fat burning during your workouts and you're not getting tired. So it's kind of like flipping it on its ear to say eat more, train harder, get fitter, build more muscle, live longer.

Philip Pape: 33:40

Yeah, exactly, and I didn't know if that's always a good thing, but in general, if you're doing it right and you structure your recovery, well you can avoid, because what I also see is if you go too hard, then now you potentially have joint and tendon issues, especially for those bodybuilders where they're almost outpacing their own ability to with their connective tissue to support what they're doing. Of course, that's where enhanced and steroids come into play too for some of those Um, but that's another great point about why we we become this huge furnace is that you can train harder in an almost exponential way when you're highly fueled, thus accelerating the ability to build that muscle. Maybe that's why it's super efficient to be in a calorie surplus.

Brad Kearns: 34:23

You know that kind of ramp up of your.

Philip Pape: 34:25

I see it myself as well, and one of the hardest things is to pull back from that when you need to, when you're trying to like peak out on your strength, when you're trying to peak out on your strength and you actually want to reduce the volume and actually hit max loads, it feels like you're not working out that much, so you're almost, you almost like to have to hold back, like just today I didn't do accessory work in my training because I'm in a final three week phase where I'm going to peak out on week four on my squat, my deadlift, my press. I'm deliberately eliminating all that volume to put it all into the ability to hit those lifts and it feels like I'm not working because I have all this energy, like you suggested.

Brad Kearns: 35:04

Yeah, yeah, I mean this is, I'd say it's become a hugely controversial subject because we have so many longevity experts touting the amazing life extension benefits of fasting and restricting carbohydrates to the extent of ketogenic eating, and I've had a big recalibration in my own mindset and belief system and strategy to realize that if you're in that category of healthy, active, athletic person with good blood values and so forth, the restriction of calories for any reason is unwarranted and I'd much rather focus on eating more, moving more, training harder, recovering faster as my path to longevity.

Brad Kearns: 35:47

My new mantra, as listeners know, is perform, recover, perform, recover and that there is no role of fasting in that equation. And I appreciate this discussion about kind of the opposite strategy. Because you look healthy on the screen, man, you're putting up some big weights. I mean, how are we gonna measure your longevity and your basic health and fitness status right now? How about pulling a new PR on the deadlift? So whatever you're doing is working by definition, as opposed to starving yourself and heading to the gym and pulling some moderate weights or whatever the opposite would be.

Philip Pape: 36:25

Yeah, and I feel like when you get to that point of building that foundation, even if you are going to go into a calorie deficit and go into a fat loss phase, it tends to be so much easier and almost not feel like a diet.

Philip Pape: 36:38

I mean, I have a lot of clients in this situation where I say, look, let's not worry about cutting right now, let's build a foundation. What you're going to find after that is that a quote unquote diet, maybe the only diet you'll ever do, because you're trying to get to that whatever leanness that is that you're going to walk around, as even that isn't going to feel that hard. It might take 12 weeks and it might be at a moderate rate of loss and because you have this high metabolism, it's kind of easy to do and you're still going to eat mostly what you like. You know you have to cut out a few things here and there, um, and then you're done. So doesn't that sound great Like? If you're listening to that, just understand how powerful that is versus the yo-yo dieting always losing weight, losing muscle when you lose weight, because that's what happens when you don't train and then you get more and more skinny fat or fat over time, and then the metabolic issues wrap up, you know, as we age.

Brad Kearns: 37:25

Yeah, I wonder you've probably seen this too. When we were, you know, really first building the primal blueprint community and doing retreats and interacting with a lot of people, there was a lot of people that came to us with seemingly severe metabolic damage from a long history of yo-yo dieting and they'd come forth and report that, hey, I tried your eating style of the ancestral approach with meat, fish, fowl, eggs, vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds. I don't eat any grains anymore, I don't eat processed sugars, I'm not drinking my Starbucks anymore and I'm still struggling to reduce excess body fat. And I wonder if you see that amongst your population, and are there some people that, just because of their past history or their current status of poor metabolic flexibility or whatever you want to call it, do they require some kind of a different approach? Or how do you deal with that?

Philip Pape: 38:17

Sure, I mean, there I'm, I'm like I might be that guy. So I was so, way back in the day I did at Atkins right, I remember Atkins even slim fast. I mean it's crazy. This stuff I tried over the years and then I joined the CrossFit community back in 2010. I did that for about eight years and I found out about the primal community and paleo and I actually did that. I have so many cookbooks still in my kitchen with paleo recipes, okay, and I was still overweight and I couldn't quite get there either.

Philip Pape: 38:51

It helped a little bit, right, it helped in terms of other aspects of health, but without that training stimulus, you're right, there was a big missing piece. That's the piece that I'm so passionate about now. That's why I put it at the top of the list and everything else kind of falls from that. The other thing is, what was I going to say about that? I think people get too hung up in the fact that certain foods whether you talk about the quality of food or the exact type of food or the macro are going to solve everything for them or vastly improve their metabolic health. I think even if you had the quote-unquote perfect diet, it is not enough. It is just not. You have to give yourself the chance to live like a human, a functional physical, pushing things around, human in the world.

Philip Pape: 39:35

I knew a guy, kevin Kevin. What's his name? Oh man, kevin McShann is that his last name? He's in a wheelchair, he's paralyzed from the waist down and one of his favorite things to do every day is lift weights. And he, he talks about it. So passion. He's like no one has an excuse. If you can I mean if you can move something on your body, you can be active and you should be active. Very inspiring guy, guy.

Brad Kearns: 39:57

Right, there's, it's within reach of everyone and, interestingly, it doesn't take uh, huge chunks of time to dabble and and and progress down this road of being a competent person who does resistance exercise. So it starts there. Diet is not enough. Love it, yeah. And how about compare contrast to the widespread pursuit of steady state cardio in with the goal of weight loss? You know what I'm going to have to say about it because I said it on your show, but is there, do you have some insights about the difference between a protocol that has strength training, some brief, explosive activity like sprinting, a foundation of, you know, comfortably placed movement versus the people who are getting that sweaty red face climbing the stairs for 45 minutes, however many days a week, at the gym, or going to these difficult classes like the morning spin class and all that thing as their main and perhaps sole pursuit of fitness.

Philip Pape: 41:02

Steady state cardio yeah, there's a couple angles I could come at this, one from. One is the fact that you can find thousands, if not millions, of people who don't do any of that type of cardio and have amazing health. I mean, if that's not proof, you know people who lift, people who don't do any of that type of cardio and have amazing health. I mean, if that's not proof, you know people who lift, people who walk, they eat right. You know, like you said, they might, they might do occasional activity, they might play sports. You know they have fun, but they are not doing that. I know what you refer to as metronomic, day in, day out cardio. That that's one. That's one answer I have. Uh, another one is just clients that I've worked with, especially women, who have what they think is an adrenal failure or an issue with their cortisol. They have hormonal issues. They might be as young as 27 or in peri and postmenopause, and it's often that they're just doing too much, that the stress is compounding what's going on with their bodies. And when I tell them let's just drop all of that, I mean I like to take a like eliminate all the cardio approach first add in the lifting and then start to add in the other things until you hit a equilibrium, a nice equilibrium, right. You'll know when you've gone past that point.

Philip Pape: 42:16

And I had a client who she thought she would have to be on medications forever. And um, she was a massage therapist, so she was active like seven, eight hours a day working with people, and she was going to the gym five or six days a week. She was doing Peloton, she was hiking, she was doing a lot. And I got her training three days a week for about half an hour, lifting really heavy. And they say, no, you shouldn't put uh, women who have adrenal issues and high stress on heavy lifting, don't do that. It's just like when they talk about autoimmune conditions. Don't lift heavy.

Philip Pape: 42:46

Quite the contrary, the evidence supports lifting heavy for just about any population. And I think you know this, brad like and by heavy I mean 60 to 90% of your max. You know like, whatever you can lift for the, for one single rep of, let's say, a deadlift or squat, 60 to 90% is a really solid range to lift in. And what happened to this client is she came off her medications because her stress dropped significantly without any other changes to her lifestyle. It was mainly the movement Like you're talking about. It was just too much cardio. That's just two angles I come at it from. The whole sprinting thing is actually a little bit newer to me, to be honest, and like I said before we started recording, I'm telling everybody about it because I'm doing it myself too. I just did my couple first sprints over the last few weeks.

Brad Kearns: 43:32

Nice. Yeah, it's a difficult one to ramp up with, because most of us stopped from our last season in middle school, soccer or high school or what have you. And then we know from research that we lose the anaerobic explosive muscle fibers at a much greater rate from aging than we do. Our aerobic conditioning and for some reason, the fitness population at large are getting their cardio in but, you know, grossly deficient in anything that resembles near maximum effort.

Philip Pape: 44:09

Yeah, and I wonder, in the lifting community specifically because I've talked to a bunch of guys since you came on the show community, specifically, because I've talked to a bunch of guys since you came on the show there are different pockets of knowledge and understanding. When it comes to quote unquote conditioning, because it's always been a hot topic with the old adage of, like cardio is going to kill your gains, right, and then there was the counter argument of no, no, no, in reality you can actually do a decent amount of cardio, up to like half the amount you lift, without detriment. The question is, what do you mean by cardio? Because that's a very broad umbrella, and so I start with the lifting and I say, okay, lifting itself is, um, is, is really a form of cardio. Um, your heart rate is constantly spiking when you're doing heavy, especially when you're lifting heavy.

Philip Pape: 44:52

I can show you on my Apple watch you know, look at this guy guy, he went on a jog with a lot of stoplights, I guess it looks like that you know every spike is a rep of of my deadlift and it pops up to you know 130, 135, like actually right around the fat max heart rate, believe it or not kind of interestingly.

Philip Pape: 45:08

I don't know if there's a correlation there, um, but the cumulative amount of um getting your heart rate high plus the epoch right, the post, the post-active post, uh, you know, I'm trying to say exercise post, uh, whatever the, the acronym.

Brad Kearns: 45:21

Excess post exercise. Excess post yeah, oxygen consumption is uh. The concept is that you you burn more calories after the workout and that's where you get the really strong driver for fat reduction. It's not the eight 700 calories you burned at the workout, but it's the next 24 hours that matters a lot.

Philip Pape: 45:42

Yeah, and I still use that, the old term afterburner effect, and you know well, that's, that's not real, but actually there is, there is, it is still a thing. Um, so, there, so just lifting alone is going to get you somewhat well-conditioned. And then I go to the next step and say okay, does your strength training program include speed work or enough volume that that also increases your work capacity? So that takes you to another level of conditioning. So, for example, um, the West side barbell guys like Louie Simmons, the conjugate style program, now those guys were like big enhanced pot body, uh, power lifters. But the principles that they used and I don't have to go into all the training principles of conjugate, but they had two days a week that were max effort and two days a week that were dynamic effort. And on the dynamic effort days they would use accommodating resistance. So they would use bands or chains. Um, if you don't have bands or chains, you just use vault, you speed. So you do a lot of sets of low reps sub-maximally. So rather than doing, say, three sets of five heavy squats, you might do 10 sets of two at 70% right, and you're taking 30 or 60 seconds rest instead of two, three, four minutes rest and you are exploding on that concentric as powerfully as you can, where the plates are rattling, like that's a good indicator that you've done it right and that builds work capacity. It builds the movement pattern. You know it's a developmental variation for the main pattern when you're not without taxing your central nervous system with the load, and then you've got conditioning as well. So I like that approach.

Philip Pape: 47:22

If you're a lifter, then I say, okay, what else do we need? Walking, that's the next form of cardio. We've got to get to that. Eight to 10,000 steps is usually solid for a lot of people. It's very practical. If you want to be a 20,000 step a day guy, go for it, but you know eight or 10. And then it's the big question, brad, what do we do? Do we need anything else? And so when my clients are in fat loss, they're like should I get a little cardio boost? And what I've recommended up to this point is some form of medium steady state, like on a bike or pushing a prowler, but not running, cause I'm a big fan of, you know, recovery involving using the concentric and not the eccentric right. You do all those, those um squats, those air squats and CrossFit. That is that you're going to be sore.

Brad Kearns: 48:04

So the eccentric. Uh just define that a little bit in case in case. People are uh falling off a bit.

Philip Pape: 48:12

Sure, yeah, yeah, I know it's, it's the, I'll guess. I guess I'll say the pushing up part of the movement, the contractile part of it, so, like in a squat, it's the coming up part of the squat, whereas going down that's the concentric. That's the concentric.

Brad Kearns: 48:23

Yeah, the concentric is lifting up and the eccentric-. The eccentric is like when the muscle is lengthening and shortening at the same time, or something. That's why you get sore. Is that the definition?

Philip Pape: 48:39

Yeah, yeah, I should get a better way to describe it, but yes, I think of like running, for example. The concentric is when you push off the ground, the eccentric is when you land.

Brad Kearns: 48:48

The eccentric is when you land. Yeah, so when you're landing people, like going down a hill, and you see your quads tighten or tense but they're also being forced to absorb the impact, so they're kind of they're flexing but they're shortening at the same time. Same with lowering down from the deadlift is lifted off the ground and then you lower. The eccentric part is what causes that micro tears in the muscle and soreness, and I believe that's exclusively so, like you can't get sore doing concentric things, only the eccentric.

Philip Pape: 49:25

Right, because the eccentric is what controls the resistance against gravity.

Brad Kearns: 49:29

Right, so that's what leads to the muscle producing force and then tearing and oh right you're, you're absorbing gravitational force while you're flexing the muscle, as opposed to um not absorbing the gravitational force.

Philip Pape: 49:43

Yeah, yeah, which is why I like say swimming or biking or pushing or pulling a sled as forms of quote unquote cardio, um, but, but.

Philip Pape: 49:53

But, like we talked about before, I liked the idea of sprinting as opposed to hit. Um, I used to. I used to be into the Tabata style CrossFit hit, which was like the inverse of what you you know. It would be like a two to one work to rest ratio, and then I kind of evolved toward a maybe one-to-one, but I like the one-to-six that you talk about with sprinting as well. Regardless, very few of my clients do much of that cardio anyway, because they find they don't need to and most people don't quote-unquote like doing this kind of cardio great reason is for recovery from the other workouts.

Brad Kearns: 50:31

You're going to be bashing your muscles with the ultimate eccentric behavior of running down a paved road especially. You mentioned Tabata, which is a popular interval training protocol, but what's so funny about that? Has been widely misappropriated and abused, because the original research with the Japanese speed skaters was it was a four-minute workout. It was 20 seconds on, 10-second rest, 20 seconds work. Or is that the opposite? Excuse me, 20 seconds work, 10 seconds rest?

Philip Pape: 51:05

Yeah, two to one, yeah, yeah.

Brad Kearns: 51:06

Yeah, two to one work to rest yeah, and then you're done in four minutes. But you go to the local neighborhood fitness club and they say 9 am Tabata class, and so they'll do like all kinds of crap with this two to one work to rest ratio, first with your bicycle pedaling, and then you get off and do some pole work or whatever. But the workout's meant to be an extremely challenging, high-intensity interval session and it's over in four minutes, besides warm-up, cool-down and all that stuff. So it's a great protocol, unless you extend it out to an hour of CrossFit where you're doing Tabata, box jumps and rope climbs and upside-down push-ups and things that get people injured when they get fatigued at the end.

Philip Pape: 51:50

And then you do grace, you do you know where you're doing like 30 power cleans with 135. I was there, I did it for eight years. It didn't do anything for me other than give me some injuries, some tweaks. I was miserable most of the time, although I love the community, and I touched a barbell for the first time, which was great, but I didn't learn proper form until after I stopped doing CrossFit and just focused on on training. Um, and that's important for people to know, because I think I think it's okay to be I don't want to say judgmental, but I try to discourage people from doing those things at all, like I'm not sure that there is any positive, even when you have the community aspect. I think there's other ways to do that. There are some really good group traditional strength training programs now where you can get in a group but actually train with progressive overload.

Philip Pape: 52:38

Do it low and slow, take your rest periods, have your recovery. That's what I would encourage people to look for.

Brad Kearns: 52:44

I'll tell you my CrossFit strategy that was very successful for me is you bail out at around the one third or the halfway mark, cause I've done a grand total of three or four CrossFit classes in my life, visiting someone. Hey, let's try this out. And there's so many good aspects of the community and the, the, the philosophy of broad-based functional fitness and all that great stuff, as opposed to training for a marathon. It's the run fit club where we show up and we jog six miles every day. We're CrossFit's, building all these skills. But, like at the one third to halfway mark, I was good and I'm a fit person. But you know they're saying, okay, we're gonna do 15 pull-ups and then come over here and do the box jump and then climb the rope. All right, I did it high five. And then they go okay, now we're gonna do a set of eight and then break it down to four and then we're gonna do five and I'm like, what the F are you talking about? I just did 15 pull-ups. That's a personal best for the year.

Brad Kearns: 53:42

So I think the fatiguing aspect of a lot of traditional fitness programming is the big problem, not the workout design so much as when we're talking about elite, high-performing athletes, especially the people we watch in the Olympics. They're not blasting these workouts to the point where they're on their hands and knees and having shitty times in the last four reps. They are very consistent and they're almost always working well within their capacity. We will watch Gabby Thomas collapsing on the ground after running a mile time trial, since she's the Olympic 200 meter champion, and that was not her cup of tea. But even then she got up if you want to watch the video and did four straightaways of 150 builds or whatever. So we're socialized, I think, to struggle and suffer and CrossFit is extremely to blame there there, as well as the endurance community to blame rather than a properly organized training session where you don't walk out of there staggering to the nearest pint of Ben and Jerry's.

Philip Pape: 54:41

Yeah, and I think it comes down to what are you trying to accomplish and if that is not getting you what you're trying to accomplish.

Brad Kearns: 54:46

I want to crush myself. Man, that's my goal.

Philip Pape: 54:48

Exactly. Yeah, I want to be miserable and I want you know, I want to be injured.

Brad Kearns: 54:52

I want to be miserable.

Philip Pape: 54:53

Yeah, and I'll tell you if. If your goal is to get your VO two max up, you could do that with lifting and walking and if you want to get a little bit higher, apparently sprinting which, by the way, I'm going to do an official VO two max test. It's been a long time I got when I'm at the peak of my bulk and I'm at my heaviest and I've barely started sprinting. That's going to be my baseline. I'm going to report back after about three months, once I've lost about 15, 20 pounds and have been sprinting for a while. We'll see.

Philip Pape: 55:21

I'll share that data with you guys, Listeners.

Brad Kearns: 55:23

Vo2 max is a volume of oxygen per milliliter per kilogram of body weight. So you're going to be gaming the test. Milliliter per kilogram of body weight? So you're gonna be gaming the test. If you drop 10 pounds, your VO2 max score will skyrocket.

Philip Pape: 55:34

I don't care, man, no, I'm just yeah, yeah, no, it's great, we can normalize it you can I? Bet, you can normalize it by body weight.

Brad Kearns: 55:42

And also well, you have maximum volume period and then, and that's, I don't think that would be affected by anything. Whether you're lifting weights or sprinting, I mean you kind of have. That's why VO2 max is largely genetically determined. It's just how much oxygen can you consume when you're exercising at high intensity. But I'm also annoyed at how the fascination and the hype around VO2 max is like the ultimate anti-aging marker and it is. If your VO2 max is terrible, then you're in bad shape, son, and you better get your butt together and get out there and move your body and work your heart and lungs. However, once you have a competent VO2 max, which I'm certain that you'll have from your lifetime commitment to fitness, it's not such a big deal and arguably we might want to negotiate for carrying around more muscle mass as hitting another important fitness pillar that directly compromises your VO2 max potential.

Philip Pape: 56:42

Yeah, which then brings up another issue, or not an issue, but a curiosity people might have is how important a lot of these health metrics are Resting heart rate lipids. A lot of these health metrics are resting heart rate lipids, hrv. Especially in the context of your current periodization phase and the body mass and muscle mass you're carrying around, it is really important. Like BMI, for example, is a totally worthless statistic unless you're just looking at a population right, and we know that new metrics like body roundness are more relevant. And, honestly, just taking a tape measure of your waist, you know you can kind of that's one of the best proxies for body fat right there. Anyway, it's very simple and that's the kind of data I like working with clients on, where it's data, but it's easy to measure, it's easy to track. Where I was going with that is that.

Philip Pape: 57:27

Going back to those clients who are highly muscled but also overweight, you will still see health metrics that are not where they need to be because they're not walking enough. For example, I've had clients who are lawyers. They sit around all day. They get 3,000 steps. They're highly muscled. We don't change anything except their steps. They go up to 6,000, 7,000, and their resting heart rate starts to decline and a lot of their health markers, according to blood work, improve just from the walking. And so that's just just, you know, more proof of the power of being an active person in general and not having to do it via miserable cardio or chronic cardio.

Brad Kearns: 58:05

Is 3,000. Pretty crappy, is that like a pretty inactive person? So you will. Even if you're just going from the parking garage to the office building and then you go down the hall to use the bathroom and then you walk around the house, are you going to get up to like one or two or 3,000 steps with doing almost, you know, minimal exercise?

Philip Pape: 58:27

So if I think of my own self working at home, if I was recovering from surgery, and I could hardly do anything?

Brad Kearns: 58:34

no, I've been in that state. I probably still got like 1,500 steps.

Philip Pape: 58:37

I don't know you can almost not, unless you're just sitting in one spot all day, which I suppose there are people who do that. I mean, this guy was lifting weights, so just from the lifting sessions, three days a week, he was probably getting 3,000 steps from his lifting session or 2,000. Was lifting weights, so just from the lifting sessions, he, you know, three days a week, he was probably getting 3000 steps from his lifting session or 2000. Really, wow, maybe 2000. Um, I pace, I pace between my sets to get steps while I'm working out.

Philip Pape: 59:01

So that's a good trick for people to have it stack. But going from three to six and then six to eight or nine, we know that that seven to nine is really the sweet spot right, Based on the mortality literature, on a massive step change in your health. And that's not inaccessible for most people. Seven to nine, it's not crazy.

Brad Kearns: 59:18

If it is, then we got problems and we got to talk about it and we got to set you up with with with Philip and take, do that intake form and say what the heck is going on here.

Brad Kearns: 59:26

Um, I mean back to the message of the book born to walk like this is a whole separate category from your fitness objectives, and your to-do list is that we are obligated to be in movement throughout the day. It's a no-brainer, it's like on the same category as sleeping. And then, oh, do you want to have a high quality, fit, active, energetic life? Then let's talk about fitness. But I kind of put that in the given category rather than oh, okay, I have to do some weightlifting twice a week and I got to.

Philip Pape: 59:56

I got to walk like no kidding, yeah, if I have a client who is not walking and they should be. And here's the thing with coaching right Is that you can't force people to do things, but you can try to frame it in a way that shows them it's inevitable that they need to do this for their own health. I do think, like the training consistently and the walking are must do's, no excuses. If you can't do them, then something else has got to change, Whether that's a time audit, getting something else off your plate, eliminating, delegating on and on, it's a time management thing for a lot of folks to be honest.

Philip Pape: 1:00:36

That's your excuse and there's no excuse. You can do it with your dog. You can do it with your kids. You can do it walking around the house. How many of you are watching Netflix or scrolling social for at least an hour a day?

Brad Kearns: 1:00:52

That hour, go ahead and scroll social but walk while you're doing it like, don't make an excuse. Yeah, it's like saying I I don't have the budget for uh nutritious foods. And then I have my uh b-rad nutrition guide where they I rank the world's most nutritious foods by by category. And we have sardines up there, we have liver up there, which is dirt cheap compared to buying a steak or even even a, and so there's numerous foods that are among the highest on the planet and they're pennies compared to driving through Chick-fil-A. I just lost another sponsor. Sorry, but you know there is budget concerns with people and time concerns too, and I've heard from those people and they've given me some plenty direct feedback that I strongly appreciate and empathize with people that are really jam-packed and we don't want to cut into sleep with nonsense social media badgering like just get up at 4.30 and do it man, no excuses, no, not going to happen, not going to be successful.

Brad Kearns: 1:01:47

But there's that time management layered underneath where, oh yeah, I forgot about my Netflix hour to three hours every evening. Can I pinch into that?

Philip Pape: 1:01:58

Yeah, it's funny. I just in my Facebook group yesterday we posted the question like what's one of the what's one of the most challenging things about your fitness? And somebody said getting up at 3 am for cardio? And I replied brutal and I replied well, I see two problems with this. Do you want me to say what they are?

Brad Kearns: 1:02:16

Cardio and getting up at 3.30? Exactly. Oh my goodness.

Philip Pape: 1:02:21

But then to be fair, he said, well, I'm just walking on an incline. I'm like okay, well, that's a little better than when I thought what you meant with cardio. But I'm still saying you're getting up at 3 am. I hope you're going to bed at like 7 pm or something.

Brad Kearns: 1:02:32

Hey, that's a pretty disciplined person right there, someone who gets up in the dark and walks on an incline. They're going to succeed with a little tweaking. So before we wrap up, like if someone just wants to get started and drift over in that direction of being a competent resistance training person that's building muscle and looking toward that longevity goal, what's a baby step one can take if we haven't gone near that side of the gym over there with the bros clanking the plates?

Philip Pape: 1:03:03

Yeah, I would really love for somebody to have access to a barbell and I could give them the baby steps from that. This is the challenge, Brad, is people. This is one of the excuses you get is I don't have access to this or that, or my gym doesn't have this, or I have home gym. So really it's starting with what you do have access to right and not making any excuses, and then working on the main movement patterns squatting, picking things up, engine pressing and everyone's at different strength levels. Everyone has different equipment access. Obviously, if you reach out to me, I'm happy to give you a free program template or guidance based on what you have, but that's really what it comes down to.

Philip Pape: 1:03:41

We we could do a whole podcast about progressive overload and training session. You know training and all of that, but it's really three days a week usually is sufficient for most people shouldn't take more than half an hour to 45 minutes when you're beginner beginner and what we're looking at is, uh, fairly heavy, fairly low reps. You know we're talking four to six, maybe up to eight to 12, you know, in that range of reps, maybe three sets of three or four exercises, a full body, and you do that. You take a long, you take long rest periods. By long I mean at least two or three minutes. These aren't the 32nd circuit training. You're not super setting, You're just one exercise and then the next, uh, three sets each, and then you take a day off and you do it again three days a week and that's it Like. It's not at all like anything that you guys think of with F45 or CrossFit or you know the running club Right.

Philip Pape: 1:04:34

That's just to keep it very high level, brad.

Brad Kearns: 1:04:37

That's great. I mean you can probably utilize the machines if you're completely incompetent with a bar and you want to learn carefully and slowly. I saw people getting trained with PVC pipes with the experts that came to our primal con retreats and it was like you know, if you do 20 reps with a PVC pipe on deadlift, you're going to feel it, even if you're pretty fit, like you don't have to load up right away and bring in injury risk. I would hope.

Philip Pape: 1:05:09

Yeah, actually it's funny. I was just talking to another lifter about the concept of progressive overload, um. I had a podcast in fact today's episode that just came out. Whenever this is coming out it's it's called um the only strength standard you need, and it was the idea that the overarching principle of getting strong is that your body needs stress. And by stress I don't mean chronic stress, I mean it needs a stimulus, it needs to recover and then it will stress. And by stress I don't mean chronic stress, I mean it needs a stimulus, it needs to recover and then it will adapt. But the stress has to be enough. Just like in your thermostat it's only gonna kick in when the house is too cold or too hot. You need to push and challenge yourself just enough so that you adapt for the next time. So you come in on Monday, you squat, you do three sets of five, at whatever weight, I don't care, maybe it feels super easy. You go in on Wednesday. I want you to add a certain amount of pounds.

Philip Pape: 1:05:56

Maybe it's five pounds, maybe it's two, If you're not super strong. Maybe it's 10, maybe it's 20. If you're just a 20-year-old male testosterone coursing through your veins and then do that each session, At some point it's going to start to feel heavy, but at some point it's going to start to feel heavy, but you also are going to be able to keep going up for quite a while. A beginner can double or triple their strength in just a few months.

Brad Kearns: 1:06:18

You know the legend of Milo of Croton, the great, legendary ancient Greek Olympic athlete. He was undefeated as a wrestler, one of the greatest Olympians of all time. In the old days in Greek history, he gained his strength by raising cattle, and so he'd pick up the calf when it was born, and then he'd pick up the calf every day for the rest of its life until he's picking up whatever a 400 pound animal. But yeah, that progressive overload. That's the. Yes, I got to get better at that man, because I'm kind of working with the same weight on my hex bar deadlift, because I have some fears about injuries. I've strained my back before and then I'm performing a recovering in my sprint workouts my bread and butter. But it's a really important point to remember that the body loves that challenge adaptation and that comes when you extend out and get toward your limit.

Philip Pape: 1:07:12

Yeah, and you can do that with anything. Like you mentioned machines. There are obviously different tools for different jobs, some more efficient than others, depending on your goal, and again, we can talk about those details, but doing something and progressing on it is going to be helpful. It's funny you mentioned the low back thing. A lot of people do have fears about injury and I've known so many folks. I can think of one guy in particular um, he's an engineer, a guy from India, and kind of very skinny, you know, kind of skinny fat if you will. About 40 years old. Um eats a lot of Indian food, which delicious, but you know the, the macros aren't always optimal for for building, and he had really bad back pain. And this is super common with desk jockeys, right?

Philip Pape: 1:07:55

And I've experienced it myself, just really sore back pain. I said why don't you try deadlifting? I'll come to my? He lived nearby. I said come to my home gym and we'll just do it together. I'll show you how to do it right and then I'll give you a simple progression. And he started doing that and all his pain is gone.

Philip Pape: 1:08:16

Okay, and I'm not. I don't mean this to say, oh, this is a miracle thing, because your particular back issue may be specific, but many people have seen pain go away in their joints and their back just from lifting weights. It sounds counterintuitive to folks that don't quite get it, like with the deadlift. Deadlift is one of the best tools to improve back pain. You got to do it right and you're going to have good form, but I'm super passionate about that, yeah.

Brad Kearns: 1:08:33

It's great for your joint health. Yeah, you're getting the blood flowing, you're getting the discs lubricated. You're working toward a stronger, more resilient body. So whatever got you that back pain in the first place? Now you're a stronger guy. You're going to ward it off.

Philip Pape: 1:08:47

And would you rather have a strong bad back than a weak bad back?

Brad Kearns: 1:08:50

That's what I'm about to say Philip Pape, everybody from Wits and Weights podcast, tell us how to connect with you on your Facebook group and the other places that we should engage.

Philip Pape: 1:09:01

Yeah, I mean on Facebook. We can put the link in, but it's called Wits and Weights. On Facebook, my podcast is Wits and Weights and on Instagram at Wits and Weights, so pretty easy to find me.

Brad Kearns: 1:09:11

And you offer this remote service for consultation and programming.

Philip Pape: 1:09:18

Yeah, I do online nutrition coaching, so it's really about fat loss, building muscle, all of that and, again, you can go to witsandweightscom learn all about that, or hit me up. And what I really want you to do, though, is listen to my podcast first and get the basics and understand my philosophy, and learn first before, because I want you to have that foundation, because then you're going to really take off and level up.

Brad Kearns: 1:09:40

Love it. Nice little assignment. Okay, first people go listen and then reach out Come inform man, Bring your A game to fill up when you finally reach out and connect. Thank you so much for spending the time. I love what you're doing.

Philip Pape: 1:09:58

Keep it up and thanks for listening. Everybody. All right, that was my conversation with Brad Kearns on his Be Rad podcast, and what I hope you take away from this discussion is how fundamentally important muscle is as a foundation for any successful physique transformation. The typical approach most people take is they restrict calories, they add in cardio, they white knuckle through hunger, and that is what doesn't work long-term, because it does not address the root cause. When you build muscle first, you create a metabolic environment where fat loss becomes just so much easier, dramatically easier. Your body becomes a glucose disposal machine. Your hormones work with you instead of against you. Your hunger signals normalize, and I've seen this pattern play out hundreds of times with clients those who focus on strength training first and diet second consistently achieve better, more sustainable results than those who do it the other way around. And this is especially true for people in their 30s, in their 40s, 50s and beyond, when natural muscle loss accelerates.

Philip Pape: 1:10:59

Remember, muscle's not just about looking good or even being strong, though those are fantastic benefits. Your muscle tissue is highly metabolically active. It acts as your body's primary glucose sink. It's a sink for the carbs that you eat and it creates the conditions for optimal fat metabolism. So the more muscle you carry, the more resilient your metabolism becomes against diet fluctuations, aging, hormonal changes, all of it.

Philip Pape: 1:11:25

So if you are struggling with stubborn fat, if you're hitting plateaus despite doing all the things, I encourage you to flip that around. Focus on building strength first. If you've never doneaus, despite doing all the things, I encourage you to flip that around. Focus on building strength first. If you've never done it before, building muscle and watch how much easier fat loss then becomes when you have that foundation in place. All right, if you enjoyed this episode again, all I ask is you hit follow on the podcast to catch every episode when they come out and then go follow Brad's excellent podcast. Be Rad with Brad Kearns wherever you listen to your podcast. All right, until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember the secret to lasting fat loss isn't found in restriction. It's found through building building muscle, that is. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

10 Fat Loss Myths the Fitness Industry Keeps Selling (Isaiah Mitchell) | Ep 313

Get the other part of this conversation on Isaiah’s podcast “Fat Loss Forever” to hear Philip expose 10 more myths!

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Think fasting fixes everything? That carbs are the enemy? Or that intuitive eating is where everyone should start?

You’re not alone. You're being misled by an industry built on half-truths.

Today, Isaiah Mitchell, the owner of Relentless Pursuit Coaching and host of the "Fat Loss Forever" podcast, dismantles 10 of the most persistent fat loss myths keeping you stuck. From the fasting hype and cardio obsession to hormone blame and the lie that clean eating must be perfect, he brings the science and the nuance to help you stop spinning your wheels. 

Catch the companion episode of this two-part special collaboration on Isaiah’s podcast where Philip breaks down 10 other myths, including metabolism, fasted cardio, and fat loss over 40.

Main Takeaways:

• Intermittent fasting isn't magic, it only works if it helps you eat fewer calories

• Intuitive eating is a skill you earn, not how you start

• Cardio alone won't get you lean, strength training builds the body you want

• Carbs, sugar, and seed oils aren't the enemy, context and calories are king

• Your dream body won't fix your life, mindset and habits matter most

Timestamps:

03:02 – Myth 1: Intermittent fasting is a magic fat loss method
11:25 – Myth 2: Intuitive eating is the best place to start
15:47 – Myth 3: Cardio is the key to fat loss
22:45 – Myth 4: Carbs make you gain fat
31:40 – Myth 5: Lifting makes women bulky
35:15 – Myth 6: You must eat clean 100% of the time
41:10 – Myth 7 and 8: Sugar and seed oils are toxic
51:01 – Myth 9: Hormones are the reason you're not losing fat
54:33 – Myth 10: Your dream body will solve everything
1:00:01 – Outro

Get the other part of this conversation on Isaiah’s podcast “Fat Loss Forever” to hear Philip expose 10 more myths!

Why You’re Still Struggling to Lose Fat (Even Though You Think You’re Doing Everything Right)

Ever feel like you’ve tried everything the fitness industry recommends—fasting, clean eating, cutting carbs—and yet you’re still not seeing the results you want? You’re not alone. In this episode, Isaiah Mitchell and I break down 10 of the most persistent fat loss myths that are being pushed by influencers, outdated gurus, and even some well-meaning coaches.

We go beyond surface-level advice and explain what actually works when it comes to building a lean, strong, sustainable physique—without the frustration and wasted time.

Myth #1: Intermittent fasting is the magic solution for fat loss

There’s nothing inherently magical about skipping breakfast. Intermittent fasting can help some people eat less—and that’s why it works. But it doesn’t bypass energy balance, boost metabolism, or trigger massive fat loss unless you’re still in a calorie deficit. In fact, some people—especially women—may experience disrupted sleep, cravings, and hormone issues from rigid fasting routines. If it works for your schedule and hunger patterns, great. But it’s not a shortcut.

Myth #2: Intuitive eating works for beginners

Listening to your body sounds great in theory. But most people’s internal cues are broken from years of dieting, binging, and emotional eating. Intuition is a skill that’s earned after you build structure, awareness, and consistent habits. If your “intuition” keeps leading you to snacks and overeating, it might be time to learn how to regulate that first.

Myth #3: Cardio is the best way to burn fat

You burn more calories during cardio, but it adapts quickly. Your body becomes more efficient, burns fewer calories for the same effort, and you risk increasing hunger. Resistance training, on the other hand, builds muscle, increases metabolic rate, and helps you shape your body. Cardio has its place for cardiovascular health—but it’s not the best physique tool.

Myth #4: Carbs make you fat

This one refuses to die. Carbs aren’t inherently fattening—they’re your body’s preferred energy source. Excess calories make you fat, whether they come from fat, carbs, or protein. If anything, carbs support training performance, recovery, hormone balance, and even better sleep. Demonizing carbs is lazy thinking. Context matters.

Myth #5: Lifting weights makes women bulky

Building noticeable muscle takes years of consistent training, eating, and recovery—especially for women. Most of the “bulk” new lifters feel is due to fat covering muscle, temporary inflammation, or water retention. The truth is, muscle creates the shape you want. You’re not going to “accidentally” get too muscular, no matter how hard you try.

Myth #6: You must eat clean 100% of the time

Not only is this unnecessary—it’s counterproductive. Clean eating perfectionism often leads to binge/restrict cycles, guilt, and burnout. You can (and should) include 10-20% of your calories from foods you enjoy, without fear. Progress comes from consistency, not perfection.

Myth #7 & #8: Sugar and seed oils are toxic

The dose makes the poison. Moderate amounts of sugar, especially in a nutrient-dense diet, are not harmful. The same goes for seed oils, which have been unfairly demonized based on rodent studies or biased social media influencers. Real human studies consistently show no harmful effects—and sometimes benefits—when total diet quality and calorie intake are controlled.

Myth #9: It’s your hormones

Hormones play a role, but they rarely explain fat gain on their own. Sleep, stress, low muscle mass, under-eating, and poor recovery habits all affect your hormones. And guess what? Those are things you can work on. Blaming hormones too early often gives away your power to change. Test if you need to—but don’t assume hormones are the problem if you’re skipping the basics.

Myth #10: Your dream body will fix everything

This is the big one. If you think reaching a goal weight will solve all your problems, think again. Body image, self-worth, and sustainable change all require inner work. If you lose the weight without changing your mindset or habits, you’re going to struggle to keep it off. This is why identity and behavior change matter more than just hitting a number on the scale.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Have you tried intermittent fasting? Have you tried clean eating 100% of the time? Have you tried cutting carbs completely because you heard they make you fat? If you have, you're among the millions of people who might be struggling to lose fat, despite doing what the fitness industry says you should do, and these are among the many myths out there that could be holding you back. Today, we are exposing 10 of those myths with my guest, isaiah Mitchell, who transformed his own physique by losing 100 pounds and keeping it off for nearly a decade. We're going to share what works instead of what's being peddled by industry and influencers, such as why intuitive eating might be sabotaging your progress, the truth about hormones, about seed oils, and why that dream body might not solve all your problems after all. We want you to stop wasting time on strategies that don't work and focusing on the pillars that do.

Philip Pape: 1:03

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm bringing you a special collaboration with Isaiah Mitchell, owner of Relentless Pursuit Coaching and host of the Fat Loss Forever podcast. I want you to go follow that right now, because we are doing a collaboration in both feeds. Isaiah has a really powerful story because he lost 100 pounds and has maintained that loss for nearly a decade. But it was only after years of losing, regaining the same 20 pounds you know the yo-yo diet cycle that he learned the real science of fat loss, the inner psychological work required for change, just like we love to talk about on this show.

Philip Pape: 1:51

So today we're discussing 10 fat loss myths that are being sold to you being sold to me and Isaiah by the fitness industry that you want to be aware of if you want to actually make progress and stop spinning your wheels. But wait, there's more, because we're going to discuss 10 more myths over on his podcast, fat Loss Forever, where he dropped an episode and had me on to discuss some myths about broken metabolisms, fasted, cardio, body fat building, muscle over 40, among others. But in today's episode you are going to learn from him about strategies like intermittent fasting, the truth about carbs and sugar, and why even achieving your dream body might not solve everything. Isaiah, welcome to the show.

Isaiah Mitchell: 2:26

Thank you, brother. Thank you, happy to be on, and it's crazy that, just with even these 20 myths that we've been able to come up with relatively quickly like me and you had our list put together so so fast and there's still so many more like we could, we could make this, you know, bi-monthly collaboration until the end of the year and we'd probably still have some, uh, some myths to sift through. But, yeah, I'm excited to get into this, especially, uh, the deeper psychological stuff which is really going to be, uh, more so for our last one on the, the dream body.

Philip Pape: 2:59

but, yeah, I'm excited to dive in and happy to be here yeah, and I think, coming from this lens of myths and you're right, because we chatted back and forth and you came up with 10 in a minute and I said, oh, I like a lot of those. You took the ones I would have come up with first, but let me just think for another minute. Okay, here's 10 more. No big deal.

Philip Pape: 3:17

It's a good lens, because the confusion and the copious amount of information on social media and the internet is often the first thing that makes people overwhelmed. Right? They come to us as a coach or in a Facebook group and they're like what do I do? There's just this guy's saying seed oils are bad. This guy says I should fast. What the heck do I do? So let's start with one of the biggest ones of all, man, which is intermittent fasting. Is this magic pill for everything? It solves everything. It solves everything. It gives you mental clarity, it helps you lose weight. It's autophagy is going to clean up your cells. You're going to live forever. What's the reality, man?

Isaiah Mitchell: 3:54

Yeah, and what you said. There is a great place to start, because I think one of the most egregious parts about intermittent fasting is all of the ridiculous claims that get attached to it, and a lot of it's true for sure, but not to the degree that it's being sold to you. It's very, very largely blown out of proportion. And if we could just kind of summarize the myth in a sentence, it's intermittent fasting melts fat, boosts your metabolism and bypasses the rules of calories, bypasses the laws of thermodynamics. And now the reality here is intermittent fasting works because it helps you eat less. It's really not any more complex than that. Not because there's something magical about fasting in and of itself, and in my opinion, fasting tends to just lead to a worse relationship with food, and I really think it should be reserved for spiritual practices for you detaching from food and learning to just sit with yourself, learning how to be bored and not fill in that hole constantly with food. That's where I think the magic of fasting really shines is separating ourselves from food. Now to get into the bit of the evidence in 2020, we had a randomized control trial published in JAMA Internal Medicine and they found no significant weight loss benefit for the fasting group compared to the regular meal timing group, and this is just one of hundreds of studies we have showing no benefit for fat loss or even autophagy, which is another thing that gets thrown out there in the whole fasting thing. The thing to understand about autophagy is it's not just an on or off switch. This is something that's always happening in the background. So when they equated calories and protein between the two groups group that ate all day, group that did intermittent fasting their results were exactly the same. All day group that did intermittent fasting their results were exactly the same. And in fact, some of the fasting participants actually lost a little bit more muscle mass, which is absolutely what we don't want.

Isaiah Mitchell: 6:13

So here is what intermittent fasting does. This is the truth. It helps some people keyword some people control their hunger by shortening their eating window. So if you lock yourself into I'm only allowed to eat during this time for some people you're going to end up eating less calories and then you lose weight.

Isaiah Mitchell: 6:35

But secondly, it can really help you create some structure and boundaries around meals and if you're someone that's just getting started, I don't think this is an absolutely terrible idea, but it's definitely not the solution to all of your problems and for some people it may improve insulin sensitivity and digestion, especially if you're someone that's used to just kind of eating all day and just kind of nibbling and grazing here and there. You establish some routine and some structure. Give your body a couple hours to not be eating food and not be digesting food, and we can see some health improvements there. Now what it doesn't do is override a calorie surplus. It does not guarantee fat loss and it does not work for everyone, especially women. It does not work for everyone, especially women, and a lot of them experience worse sleep, worse cravings and even menstrual cycle disruption. So for my ladies out there, I strongly recommend eating a balanced breakfast, so kind of our TLDR here for intermittent fasting. If you eat more calories than you burn, even in an eight-hour window, you will still gain weight Period, end of story.

Philip Pape: 7:48

Yeah, I love that you got into the nuance because I think that is a recurring theme that's going to come up as we go through each of these that we want the listener to understand we're thinking through this, looking at the data, looking at the evidence and also trying to personalize this that there are potentially benefits to everything we talk about today. You have to understand the context for that. Just two things real quick.

Philip Pape: 8:07

You mentioned, for the weight loss, for the calorie thing, I saw a post by I think it was the bodybuilding dieticians on Instagram today where they had a table and it had all the diets right Keto, carnivore, et cetera, et cetera and it had all the things that were unique with these check boxes. The last column was calorie deficit and every single one was checked, including the row that said energy balance, right, like a normal, flexible diet. So it's important people understand that's the main driver here. The thing you mentioned about spirituality and sitting with your hunger is a really good one, man, because I literally just got off a call with a client who's more of an advanced guy. He likes to experiment with different protocols and I actually suggested to him hey, have you ever tried fasting for a day to see what it feels like for your hunger.

Isaiah Mitchell: 8:50

Yes.

Philip Pape: 8:50

Because we were talking about psychological and physical and I used to fast. I don't anymore. But when I'm in a fat loss phase now, hunger is no big deal. When it happens I can kind of sit with it. You know, move on. So just maybe pulling that thread a tiny bit and then we'll move on to the next one, because we got, we got to tend to move, to get through, oh, this hunger thing isn't really that much of a challenge.

Isaiah Mitchell: 9:31

It really doesn't have that much power and control over me, outside of the power and control that I'm giving to it and you know anyone that's done a 24 hour fast. You know there comes a point pretty early on in the day, maybe around like noon 2 pm, where it's just gone. The hunger is gone, the desire to eat is gone and the mental clarity just comes in and the presence with you and your environment, your ability to just show up for people around you. Better. That day, like everything just gets better. So I think that's probably the best way to use.

Isaiah Mitchell: 10:00

Fasting is some sort of, you know, spiritual religious practice, whatever it is, but as a end-all, be-all solution to your weight loss problems from now until the rest of your life? Probably not, and it's it's kind of the same thing with keto. We want to ask ourselves what am I actually going to learn from this if I actually end up at my goal? So, for example, if you do keto and you lose 100 pounds, what did you learn? To avoid carbs, that's it. You got nothing else out of that and now here you are, 100 pounds down, wondering how you're going to avoid carbs for the rest of your life.

Isaiah Mitchell: 10:38

Same thing with fasting. If you lose 100 pounds fasting for 16 hours a day, what did you learn To not eat between this time and that time? Nothing about portion sizes, meal building, macros. What's in your food? How do certain foods make you feel? So we want to get curious and actually ask ourselves am I going to learn something I can keep forever from this tool? And then also, can I do this for 10 years? Yeah, because if I can't, I probably shouldn't even do this for 10 years. Yeah, because if I can't, I probably shouldn't even do it for 10 days, let alone 10 minutes, because come day 11, the inputs gone, so the output is gone, and this really is a game of inputs and outputs. We take away that input, we take away the output.

Philip Pape: 11:21

Yeah, agree, and so you want that input to be sustainable, which is actually a perfect segue into the next myth, which is about intuitive eating. That it's a great weight loss or fat loss strategy for beginners Listening to your bodies, eating when you're hungry, stopping when full. However it's defined. Why is that a myth?

Isaiah Mitchell: 11:40

Yeah, yeah. So this is a really a really good one, and one that's been around for a long time and, just like the one we got into and the rest of them, there's a lot of good stuff here and there's a lot of truth, but the problem is people don't realize that intuitive eating is a final destination. It is not a great tool in the beginning, because most people's intuition tells them to eat pizza and ice cream. That's what most people's intuition is telling them. So in the beginning of most people's weight loss journey, we can't yet trust our intuition, and that's okay. So the myth is that all you need to do is listen to your body and you'll lose weight. But for most of us, listening to our body is kind of what got us in this position in the first place, and of course, there's probably a lot of deeper stuff underlying their trauma.

Isaiah Mitchell: 12:33

How food was talked about and interacted with in your house as a child All of that plays a very significant role. But the reality is, this only works if your internal cues are calibrated, and for most people they're just not. So if you have spent years or even decades dieting, binging, skipping meals, emotional eating, your hunger and fullness signals are probably way off. You're probably always hungry and never really satisfied. So telling someone To just intuitively eat Under those conditions Is like handing them a compass that's been spinning for years. It's just not going to get you anywhere.

Isaiah Mitchell: 13:17

So what most beginners need First Is a basic understanding Of energy balance. They need a consistent Meal structure structure and they need at least an awareness of protein, fiber and calorie intake. And then after that we can layer in those intuitive eating skills on top of that. And in fact my clients that are working on this stuff tracking their calories, getting an understanding of energy balance, bringing some awareness to protein, fiber, calorie intake Every time we are presented with an opportunity where we're in a social eating environment, we're outside of our house, we're at a restaurant, we're at a barbecue these are opportunities to sharpen that intuitive eating sword while still laying down the foundation of what we actually need. So in those moments restaurant, birthday, whatever it is I'll advise my clients to not even track that day. Let's just use the day to listen to our body and get better at that skill. So intuition is only helpful when it's been trained and most people need to get some reps in with structure before they can actually trust their instincts.

Philip Pape: 14:32

Yeah, framing it as a skill is exactly the way to go. Right, and people often don't want to put in the time, the work, put in the patience to do that. It's kind of like with strength training, right? You don't just go into the gym and say do what you feel, man. Just you know you're going to be fine. Just do what you feel. Pick whatever machine, do what you want.

Max: 14:47

That's what I did in the beginning, you know, yeah.

Philip Pape: 14:50

Or, hey, I'm going to give you a paycheck with your job. I want you to just you know, spend and save, don't track it, don't don't have a budget. Skill is great. And then, especially, what you said about practicing pulling away from the support mechanisms of tracking, for example, when you go on a vacation, having used the tracking long enough, that you've honed that skill and I'll tell you, people have been doing this for years and years still aren't going to be perfect at it and like, oh, I love to use tracking just to know that I can be precise, and then I can come off of it for a while and kind of go back and forth. So yeah, guys, you just intuitive eating, you can get there, but you have to start somewhere else before you can get there.

Max: 15:32

So that's a good one All right man.

Philip Pape: 15:34

Myth number three always love this one. Cardio for fat loss. Just so you know, we've talked about this a lot in the podcast recently. I'm a big fan of anaerobic sprinting and not chronic cardio and doing lots of walking and lifting, so people listening to the show are on board with that. But there's a lot that still say, hey, I'm doing the Peloton, I'm doing all the cardio, I'm running whatever. Why is that a problem for fat loss? Aren't you burning a ton more calories? Isn't it great for that?

Isaiah Mitchell: 16:02

Right, for sure, for sure. And this is where right what you said there is where a lot of the confusion happens, and this kind of goes back to having a basic understanding of energy balance, but also having some semblance of understanding of how the metabolism works, as well as adaptation and survival. So if we take an hour of cardio and compare that to an hour of strength training, is that hour of cardio going to burn more calories? Absolutely, but not for long. So if you run a mile and that mile, you are burning 300 calories in that first week. Burning 300 calories in that first week. Not very long after that, the total caloric burn is going to significantly decrease, and this is because your body is getting better at that thing you keep making it do. And in the case of cardio, your body is becoming more efficient with calories, meaning it doesn't have to use as much energy as it used to to do that same amount of cardio. Now, in the context of survival, this is great. It'd be absolute disaster if we were hunter gatherers and burning four or five, six thousand calories a day. We wouldn't be here today. So thank goodness our metabolism adapts in both directions.

Isaiah Mitchell: 17:24

Now the myth here is if you want to burn fat, just do more cardio. Now, by no means am I anti-cardio or saying cardio doesn't have a place in people's fitness regimes. It absolutely does, specifically for cardiovascular health and, like every exercise, cardio is just a tool, not necessarily a body sculpting strategy. So, yes, cardio absolutely burns calories, but it does not build muscle, it does not build your metabolism long term and it does not reshape your body in the way that you're after in that tone, lean, defined, athletic look. That's just not going to get you that and in fact, a 2012 meta analysis in obesity reviews showed that diet plus resistance training diet so calorie deficit plus strength training consistently outperform cardio for fat loss and body composition. So long low intensity cardio, minimal calorie burn, high intensity cardio going to be very tough to recover from and can also spike your hunger no-transcript.

Philip Pape: 19:07

What are we trying to get here? A strong, muscular, lean, healthy, functional body that only get there by lifting weights and, by the way, that supports fat loss, because we're not just trying to lose weight, right, we're trying to lose fat and get the better look and feel that we're going for. But you also mentioned the side effects of cardio, like your hunger signals, and that is a real phenomenon. It's, it's been studied, it's been supported and we all know it. Come on, we know it. If I go out for a short couple of sprints, you know. Or if I lift weights, uh, I feel great, but I don't feel I'm not starving, you know. I'm not going to go and crave carbs, sugar, fats, whatever, yeah, but if I run, you know, a 5k, it's like where I don't care, give me a beer, it doesn't matter, just give me some source of energy right now that I need to gobble down, to make make up for it.

Philip Pape: 19:52

Um, yeah, so those are good points, man. I don't know if you want to say anything else about it. We could, we could get going. I know it's kind of like a list we have here.

Isaiah Mitchell: 20:01

I guess what I want to leave the audience with here is just ensuring that cardio isn't the only thing that you're doing Now. If you're like a triathlete, if like cardio is your entire life, you're a cyclist, you're a marathon runner, whatever that makes sense, and this is very goal specific. But for most of you, you want that lean, toned athletic body and you want it to last forever in a way that doesn't make your life suck and had I lost that hundred pounds.

Isaiah Mitchell: 20:35

Without strength loss, I would have been in a very, very difficult position to maintain that weight loss. Because when we strength train, when we go through a reverse dieting process, we're able to reset our baseline or our maintenance calories, and this is the first thing I do with every single client is we rebuild their baseline so we actually have room to cut from without making you absolutely hate your life. So to kind of put this in perspective, a lot of women come to me needing to lose 20, 30, 40, 50 plus pounds and they're eating 1500 calories or less and nothing's moving. The scale isn't moving, inches aren't dropping. And I'll always ask them you know, are we strength training? No, we get protein intake back. They're eating like 40 grams a day.

Isaiah Mitchell: 21:32

And then also, the most important question is have you ever gone through a dedicated muscle building phase? And the answer is always no. Flip it around. Have you ever gone through a dedicated fat loss phase? And the answer is always no. Flip it around. Have you ever gone through a dedicated fat loss phase my entire life? 10, 20, 30 times. And this is the problem Every time we go through that cycle we lose a bit of body fat, but we also lose muscle and then we gain the body fat back and we don't gain back the muscle and year after year, decade after decade, metabolism gets slower and slower and slower and you're just left feeling like your body is broken. So TLDR here is make sure strength training is at the center of your routine and cardio supplements around it in a way that you enjoy. So if you hate 5Ks, don't do 5Ks. If you love the rower, do the rower and you'll be more consistent.

Philip Pape: 22:28

Cool man. I mean. That's why I wanted to have you on the show, and vice versa, because these are exactly the points of trying to get into, drill into people's heads, especially the one you mentioned about spending time in a muscle building phase. Many times, that's the thing that's missing from fat loss, because you've pushed, pushed in one direction and you haven't, uh, built up the boulder that can be sculpted versus the pebble you are right now exactly so no, it's good, and I stole that from someone else.

Philip Pape: 22:52

Man, that's where I hear all these great metaphors from. So, um, so we talked about nutrition, we talked a little bit about dieting. The big boogeyman of course, besides seed oils, it's a different boogeyman. Of course, besides seed oils, it's a different boogeyman is carbs right. Carbs, not just carbohydrates in general, but the fact that they have some unique propensity to make you even fatter. And there's an entire school of, I'll say, belief out there, the Gary Tobes of the world, who still push this lipid hypothesis. Or is it the lipid hypothesis, the fat you know what I'm saying? The carb fat storage hypothesis that has been debunked. Where do we go with this now? To just let people know they, they can eat carbs. Carbs actually may be great in certain contexts and they may not make you fat for the reasons you think, at least. What's the story?

Isaiah Mitchell: 23:36

for sure. So this is one I have talked about agnosium I never get tired of writing about, uh, this, and I'm honestly. I'm honestly kind of surprised it's still as prevalent of an issue as it is in 2025. But we just continue to do the good work.

Isaiah Mitchell: 23:52

So, of course, the myth here is that carbs equal storing body fat equals avoid at all costs. And the reality is carbohydrates are actually the body's preferred fuel source. The body, every single one of your organs and even your brain rely on glucose, which comes from carbohydrates. Now, weight gain, fat gain, happens when you eat more calories than you burn from any source, any source carbohydrates, dietary fats, protein although it's going to be very, very unlikely, you know, we see in like metabolic tracer studies. If any of them has a higher propensity to be turned into actual body fat, it's fat. Because it's already fat, it's really easy to turn fat into just stored fat. So low carb diets can work because they often reduce your calorie intake and also suppress appetite, but carbs themselves are not the issue.

Isaiah Mitchell: 25:00

15 review in the Lancet compared low carb and low fat diets and found no significant difference in fat loss when the calories and protein were matched. And this, once again, as we talked about earlier is one of hundreds of thousands of studies. I can't even tell you how many low carb versus this, low carb versus that, low carb versus that, and every single time when the calories and protein are equal, the results are exactly the same. So what comes down to? What do you prefer, what makes you feel the best and what can you actually stick to? And for most people, the answer is definitely not going to be keto, but maybe somewhere in the middle.

Isaiah Mitchell: 25:46

You know, not everybody is, you know, high performing athlete that needs three to four hundred grams of carbohydrates a day. But the TLDR is it's not the carbs, it's about context and calories, calories. So 100 grams of sweet potato isn't necessarily the same thing as 100 grams of donuts in terms of like, how you're going to feel nutrient content, how that's going to influence your food choices the rest of the day, and also, you know, pro differences in protein content, differences in fiber content, can vary differently between certain carb sources. But I think a lot of people just have an immediate reaction when they hear the word carbs and they instantly think of stuff like french fries and donuts and the cookies and the chips and not realizing broccoli is a carb source.

Isaiah Mitchell: 26:39

All vegetables are a carb source. Fruit is a carb source quinoa, white rice, sweet potatoes, all of this different kind of stuff and not only do they have carbs, they also nutrients, and this is the. This is the context that gets ignored so often when grifters and gurus want to hone in and demonize a single ingredient in a food, be that, you know, like oxalates in sweet potatoes or something, or like the lectins and beans you know goitrogens and broccoli yes, yes, ignoring the fact that the dose makes the poison, and these things are dosed to be harmful for insects, not a hundred and fifty to two hundred and fifty pound human and also all of the other nutrients that come with it that counteract that.

Isaiah Mitchell: 27:29

One little thing in there, and even in, you know, meat there's like the, the, any GU seven or something that's like potentially carcinogenic, like there's something in everything that we could hone down and be like oh look, that's bad for you, we can't eat that anymore. But if you go down this path long enough, if you read enough diet books that are written for my, you know physicians, you will be left with ice cubes and that's it.

Philip Pape: 27:54

So you won't need anything. Exactly, exactly. Plants will kill you, meat will kill you, fats will kill you. You're done. You're done, you're done, you're dead and you're just suffering through life and you don't get to enjoy your next meal. Yeah, no, I mean, there's a lot there. Obviously, this is one of those that could be an entire episode itself. What I think you've been doing throughout this conversation is focusing on also the positives, though, both what we lack when we avoid these things, such as the nutrients, but also the positives of hey, your brain needs this as an energy source. Hey, energy balance is determined by the totality of your dietary pattern and your calories. It has nothing to do with the macros. These give people the permission that many folks don't think they have from having been conditioned, I think, through this industry. To say something is just so nefariously terrible for them, so I think that's good. What about just real quick carbs for people who are building muscle?

Isaiah Mitchell: 28:56

What's the benefit there? Yeah, yeah, so, truly one of the best ideas because, as we just covered, it's your body's preferred fuel source and it's also its most efficient way to turn that food into actual usable energy. And when we talk about using fats as fuel, on average it's about two to four times slower. So absolutely not what we want. So when you have adequate carbohydrates and your resistance training and you're trying to build muscle, you're just going to have better workouts, you're going to have better pumps, you're going to feel better, You're going to be able to push yourself harder and then also recover better on the back end, which is where everything hinges on, because you only get the gains that you can recover from and then, not to mention, we're going to sleep better.

Isaiah Mitchell: 29:37

Carbohydrates, of course, raise insulin, which they're supposed to. It's a normal physiological process, but insulin and cortisol work counter regulatory to each other. So this is why I encourage all of my clients make sure they get in some post post workout carbohydrates, and I typically recommend shifting their carbohydrate intake to have most of it in the back half of the day, when cortisol is usually going to be the highest. You're getting off work. You're already stressed from that. You got cut off in traffic. You get home, your kids are running all over the place. Let's bring down that cortisol with some carbohydrates. So net benefit really no negatives there for anyone wanting to build muscle. Now can you build muscle on a ketogenic diet? Absolutely. There's plenty of people that are living proof of that. It's just not the most efficient way.

Philip Pape: 30:29

It's going to be slower.

Isaiah Mitchell: 30:30

And you're not going to have a pump like say goodbye to your pumps, for sure yeah, no, it's great.

Philip Pape: 30:35

I mean we we did a whole episode on the um, the anti-catabolic effects of carbs but this idea of carbs for cortisol and hormone support and everything is also under um rated or not talked about enough, so I think I might do another episode on that. Thanks for the thanks for the inspiration with that answer.

Isaiah Mitchell: 30:50

Yeah, um, yeah and another quick little blurb here before we move on to the the next one. I know a lot of anti-carb people will bring up the fact that carbs are not essential, and they're not. Neither is fiber. Right, and that's exactly what I'm about to get into, because that actually does make carbohydrates essential. Are they essential for survival? For you? Just stay alive? No, you can eat zero carbs and stay alive, just fine. But we're not talking about just staying alive. We're talking about optimizing and thriving. So if we're talking about optimizing and thriving, no carbs means no fiber. Therefore, carbohydrates are essential for optimal health, in my opinion. Yep, I agree.

Philip Pape: 31:39

I agree, man. All right, no argument here. We're just going to agree the whole time here, but I guess that's okay, since we're trying to help people break the myths and have some clarity. So myth number five, one of my favorites I've had a lot of women trainers and bodybuildersers on lately too, including Holly Baxter was on recently, and we're always hitting on this myth that lifting weights makes women bulky. I'm not even going to explain the myth I think people have heard it was like 30 women had done one workout and they woke up looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Isaiah Mitchell: 32:07

That's right, man. When I got my driver's license, the very next week, nascar was calling me and trying to sign me onto their team, so hopefully you guys can realize that.

Philip Pape: 32:24

I know man I'm totally joking. And all the jacked women at the grocery store yesterday. They're just everywhere. They're just everywhere.

Isaiah Mitchell: 32:33

So the myth here here, of course, is strength training is going to make you look manly, it's going to make you look too muscular, it's going to make you look like a football player. And the truth is there are men with more advantageous genetics than you, more natural testosterone than you, a more anabolic internal environment in their body, that have been trying to get that body you're afraid you're going to get for decades and they're still not there. After meticulously training, dialing in their sleep, dialing in the nutrition, they're still not there and they're trying to get there. So you not trying to get there without the inner workings of a man? That's absolutely not going to happen.

Isaiah Mitchell: 33:16

So building visible muscle takes years, even with optimal training, eating, sleep, genetics, and women typically have 10 to 30 times less testosterone than men 30 times less testosterone than men. So most of the bulk that women feel when they start lifting is muscle being built underneath body fat inflammation and water retention. From being new to training changes in like glycogen stores as well. If we're building new muscle, that's just more storage. You now have to store those carbohydrates. So when we eat, carbohydrates comes in as glucose and then we store it as glycogen in skeletal muscle and also in the liver. It's actually pretty cool. You can store somewhere around like 2000 calories of carbohydrates just in the body to be used whenever it's absolutely crazy. And then also, what could also be happening is not adjusting nutrition to reduce body fat while you're building that muscle. So what most people call toned is just showing the muscle that you've built through lower body fat. So if you want curves, what you actually want is muscle.

Philip Pape: 34:32

Yep, totally agree. And the way I like to illustrate that as well, isaiah right, is, you know, asking a woman to show me a physique that she admires from an athlete or someone you know, someone out there that looks lean in tone. Guess their weight. Look up their actual body weight and it's usually 20 to 40 pounds heavier than they think. That's the bulk you don't want. I doubt it. That's the bulk you don't want. I doubt it. That's exactly what you want. So let's just put that to bed. And if it's a fat gain, fat loss situation, it has nothing to do with the muscle. It has to do with the cross-sectional area of the fat, with the muscle or the fact you haven't revealed the muscle yet. So really good points.

Isaiah Mitchell: 35:08

And it only stands to benefit you from a metabolism perspective, from a sustainability perspective, from being able to eat more while still losing body fat perspective. It's, it's everything you want, yep all right, man, let's keep going.

Philip Pape: 35:22

Uh, you got to eat clean 100 of the time, don't you like clean eating it's, it's a religion for some people I used to be there, man, I did paleo, I did uh, you know, quote unquote clean, whatever that means. Um, I love whole foods, I love nutritious foods. Why don't we just eat 100 of those?

Isaiah Mitchell: 35:37

for sure, for sure. So I I saw a post yesterday by um steve craft coaching. If you know him, he's a he's a guy from the uk, absolutely hilarious. But he made a post on kind of how the fitness industry goes through this cycle. You know, every couple decades of like, oh it's, everything has to be clean. 100 percent of the time, calories don't matter. Then we go on to the next thing and ultimately we land back at. You know, it's calories in, calories out at the end of the day. And you should probably leave a little flexibility to enjoy the short time you have on this earth, because life is a lot more than your body. Life is a lot more than food.

Isaiah Mitchell: 36:15

So the myth here is that results require rigid perfection, and I am living proof that's not true, because I absolutely was not rigidly perfect on my journey of losing 100 pounds. And here I am, almost 10 years later, and it ain't coming back. And I have a mini bag of Doritos Almost every day. I'm drinking a diet soda right here and it's showing no signs of coming back. On top of that, the over 400 clients I've worked with and I can show everyone their consistency trackers None of them were perfect. None of them have a From start to the end of our time, working together 100% across the board. They had some perfect weeks, maybe they had a couple perfect weeks in a row, but progress does not demand perfection, and consistency always, always, always beats perfection.

Isaiah Mitchell: 37:13

And here's the kicker you can eat clean 100% of the time and still gain fat, and then, on the flip side, you can eat only cupcakes, only cupcakes, and lose fat steadily. Are you going to feel different on one versus the other? For sure, are you going to feel different on one versus the other? For sure, and of course, those are two extremes, which is I did that on purpose, because I boxes, it's probably good to eat, and then the remaining 20 percent goes to the things that make you happy, even if they're providing absolutely no nutritional content. We have to make room for these things, because the vast majority of you listening to this are not david goggins and do not want to live that life and really just don't read. And I honestly, I think the, the internet as a whole, is kind of getting tired of the whole red pill, super hardcore discipline, no days off, just keep grinding like. I think we're kind of getting tired of it.

Philip Pape: 38:27

So we are man, yeah and yeah, I and I've, and I've never resonated with that. I love doing hard things, but, man, when somebody says I'm doing 75 hard or doing this extreme approach, I'm just like why? My first question is why? Because are you doing it? Because you think it's going to instill some sense of discipline you didn't have before. That's fine, you want to try to do that, but good luck doing that the rest of your life and happiness and enjoyment from food. There's nothing to be guilty of regarding that.

Philip Pape: 38:56

I've seen people comment, uh, to say, hey, if you think food's for enjoyment, you've got a problem. I'm like that's a problem with you, buddy. There's emotional eating. There's, you know, trigger-based, you know, things that we try to find from food. That's a different situation. You're not doing it because you're happy, you know. In that sense, I'm having my wife's birthday cake all week, you know, because it was her birthday and I'm in a fat loss phase, man, so on. You know 1,800, 2,000 calories. That's slightly more challenging, but I am going to enjoy it and it's going to work and I'm going to lose the fat, just like you did, and I always have a box of Pop-Tarts in the cabinet for when I'm in the fat, when I'm in the muscle building phase, they do not look how they used to do.

Isaiah Mitchell: 39:36

It's disrespectful at this point.

Philip Pape: 39:38

And they're tiny too. They're smaller. Yeah, not having it, everything shrinks. Not having it, but what?

Isaiah Mitchell: 39:43

you got into there is, more often than not, that emotional eating, the trigger-based eating, the binge eating, aiming for 100% clean all the time.

Isaiah Mitchell: 39:55

That is where this will lead to, exactly Because we go back to something called the forbidden fruit effect, in that humans only want what we tell ourselves we can't have is bad for us is off-limits. So quick thought experiment for everybody here anyone that's ever struggled with binging I will bet everything I have that none of you are binging on chicken salads. It's just not happening. It's the cake, it's the candies, it's the cookies, it's the pizza, it's the things you told yourself you're not allowed to have for xyz reason, because you think it's fat and because you think it's going to kill you, because you think it's poison, uh, because susan down the street told you, uh, to stop eating them. But this strict eating very often leads to an all or nothing mindset, the binge restrict cycle, which is absolutely nasty and very difficult to get out of, and then also nutritional deficiencies due to limited food variety. So I would rather you, the listener, eat 80 whole foods and 20 for your soul instead of burning out on 100 and quitting by week three, which is what happens every single time.

Philip Pape: 41:15

That's the way to put it. So I'm wondering if we can segue into myth seven and nine, which is sugar and seed oils, based on this conversation, because it's effectively saying okay, you guys are talking about pop tarts and Doritos and I've heard that there's just sugar is toxic and seed oils are toxic and plants are toxic. We talked about it. So I think there's going to be some similarities, even though there's unique aspects to each. But sugar being inflammatory, unhealthy, fattening, seed oils being just terrible for you in every respect whatsoever, that we're trying to ban them. What's the reality?

Isaiah Mitchell: 41:46

Yeah, this is where we definitely get into the weeds and into the nuance. We definitely get into the weeds and into the nuance. So even early on in my coaching career, I was taught there are good fats and bad fats. Omega-3s good black and white, on-off switch. Omega-6s bad inflammatory, on-off switch. And nothing in nutrition is black and white.

Isaiah Mitchell: 42:14

So let's start with sugar and the myth being that all sugar is bad and any amount is toxic. And the reality is sugar in excess, especially when it's combined with ultra processed foods and a sedentary lifestyle. That is what contributes to inflammation and disease, and it's actually from the surplus of calories. So if you kept your energy intake in check, if you were eating excess sugar but you were at a maintenance level of calories, it's ultra processed foods and you have a sedentary lifestyle. You are better off than the person that's ultra processed foods and you have a sedentary lifestyle. You are better off than the person that's simply eating more calories than you.

Isaiah Mitchell: 42:58

So just being in a caloric surplus is one of the biggest culprits and drivers of inflammation and disease, regardless of the composition of your diet. If I follow a Mediterranean diet and, for the next year, eat more calories than I burn, I'm going to be in a worse place as far as my health. But a small amount of sugar in a nutrient dense diet is not a problem, especially when we control calories. 18 review in nutrients very, very reputable journal, found that moderate sugar intake did not independently increase any inflammatory markers when total calorie intake and other nutrients were managed. And then, on top of that, the who recommends keeping your added sugars under 10% of total calories, and this is typically my recommendation for clients. Same with saturated fats, both that and sugar. Keep it between 10% to 20% of your calories and you're going to be good to go, which does not mean elimination. So the poison is in the dose and in you know what else you're eating with it.

Philip Pape: 44:15

But I can promise you fruit is not the enemy of anyone, but the 3 pm vending machine might be yeah, especially since the high levels of these things, especially added sugars or potentially seed oils, are generally correlated with high processed food consumption, ultra processed food consumption, which leads to, ad libitum, generally more calorie intake. If you're not tracking Now, if you are tracking, if you're following it, you can easily moderate those things. And if they're only part of a 10, 20%, as you recommend, again even easier to flexibly moderate and include them.

Max: 44:51

Shout out to Philly Pay. I know Philippe for a long time. I know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength and that's why I choose him to be my coach. I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably. Philippe helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations while not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy, but now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently but, most importantly, I do it sustainably, If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a lean, strong body is what you're looking. So we briefly touched on seed oils.

Philip Pape: 45:38

Again, I'm just flipping two of these myths around. To continue on that line, seed oils have another unique concern in that people talk about the processing, which that really gets to me, because my philosophy is like I almost don't care how it's processed. If the outcome shows better health than something else, it's worst health that's. That's seems logical to me to think that way, but of course people have concerns. What's wrong with seed oils? Why are they getting such a bad rap and what's the reality?

Isaiah Mitchell: 46:05

Yeah, so A little bit into like the conspiracy theory here, but I think one of the biggest reasons they're getting vilified and most things go back to money at the end of the day, they're very, very cheap. They're very, very cheap and inexpensive. So we're talking about like canola oil, soybean oil, sunflower oil, safflower oil. They're toxic, they cause inflammation, they're going to kill you, they destroy your metabolism, which isn't even really possible, and the data just doesn't support any of these claims. And I've talked to so many people on the Internet, back and forth, in comments on different podcasts, talking about seed oils and you can't find me any research to support their claims. And then, of course, we get into it's all. It's all bought and paid for. All the researchers are corrupt. We can't even trust science, and that's just a lazy argument in my opinion. And they never have issues with the study layout, the methods that were used. Maybe they want to attack, attack the funding, but we flip that around on them. Have you ever funded research? Noble, someone's got to like, someone's got to pay these, pay these researchers. But even just to get into some of the evidence 2017, there was a systematic review of 30 plus clinical trials, so a systematic review for anyone that doesn't know is basically a study of studies, so there were over 30 clinical trials included in this review published in circulation found that increasing linoleic acid, the main omega six in seed oils, did not increase inflammatory markers, and that finding this is the important part has gone on to be repeated and replicated year after year. Every time a new study comes out on seed oils, we find inflammation actually getting better. Especially with canola oil, we see improvements in inflammatory markers, improvements in lipids, improvements in insulin sensitivity in lipids, improvements in uh insulin sensitivity.

Isaiah Mitchell: 48:17

So most of the fear comes from one charlatans and grifters on social media so quick, you know little breakdown of what to look for. If they're filming content shirtless in a grocery store, just hit that block button. If they're wearing blue light blocking glasses while not even looking at a screen, probably a good idea to just block them. And if their content is mostly based on fear, making you afraid of certain foods and vilifying specific chemicals, specific ingredients, probably not someone that's actually worth their salt. And most of the fear comes from rodent studies using absolutely absurd amounts of seed oils that you and I as humans could not feasibly obtain, especially on a regular basis. Or it comes from data of oil being reused over and over and over again at high frying temperatures.

Isaiah Mitchell: 49:10

Now that, I will say, absolutely has some, you know, negative stuff that can come with it, but for most people cooking at home with canola oil, you use the oil once and you're done. You know, at a fast food place might be a little bit different, but when used in moderation, especially cold or lightly cooked, seed oils could actually support your heart health and even lower LDL cholesterol when replacing saturated fats, which is what people should actually be afraid of. If we're going to be afraid of anything, it's moderating our saturated fat intake. And the crazy part is the people that are the most vocal about villainizing. The crazy part is the people that are the most vocal about villainizing seed oils glorify saturated fat and deny the science we have.

Philip Pape: 49:58

Yeah, cherry pick studies to death.

Isaiah Mitchell: 50:00

Yep. It is directly linked directly linked to LDL cholesterol increasing, which is an independent, independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease. So if you're stressing over the seed oil in your salad dressing, but eating ultra processed snacks five times a day and walking around with a little carcinogen every single day, you're missing the forest for the trees.

Philip Pape: 50:26

Smartphone. He's holding a smartphone, guys.

Philip Pape: 50:30

So, yeah, I mean I couldn't have said it better, especially when you compare saturated fat. One other thing that has come up over the years that I think has been debunked is the omega three to six ratio. I think the general consensus is that adding in more omega three is beneficial, and that's really where it came down from. It wasn't even the ratio itself. And, like you said, omega six, like linoleic acid, is, especially when compared to saturated fat, an improvement in your health. So just look at the data, guys. It's all out there.

Philip Pape: 50:58

And don't follow the people. Block all the people. Isaiah said to block, so grocery store.

Isaiah Mitchell: 51:04

Once a quarter I'll repost my list of people to unfollow people lying to you on social media. That's good.

Philip Pape: 51:12

All right, we got a couple to get through here. Um, the second one or the ninth myth year. Now it's number nine. Uh, hormones, where do we start? Because everything gets blamed on hormones. Everything gets sold as a hormone balancing or hormone fixing remedy. So just maybe keep. Let's keep this somewhat concise, cause I know it can go off into a crazy level of detail, for sure. But yeah, it's your hormones, right right, absolutely not your.

Isaiah Mitchell: 51:39

Not your habits, not your lifestyle, not the lack of muscle, not the chronic yo-yo dieting.

Philip Pape: 51:44

So that's it, you just, you just answered it, those other things are the reason, exactly, exactly.

Isaiah Mitchell: 51:50

But that comes back to what I've noticed the majority of the population seems to be allergic to in 2025, which is personal responsibility and accountability. The more we can point the finger to something else, the better we feel. But what we don't understand is when we point that finger, we are choosing where the power goes, where the control goes, and the day that you finally flip that around and realize it's me, you can finally start moving forward. So hormones like insulin, cortisol, estrogen, thyroid hormones absolutely play a role in metabolism and, most importantly, in appetite a very, very big role in appetite. But in most people, the real issue is not their hormones, it's chronic stress, it's poor sleep, it's low protein, it's low fiber, it's inconsistent or no habits and it's no or inconsistent resistance training.

Isaiah Mitchell: 52:54

And now getting into some of the research back in 2020, we've got a meta analysis from endocrine reviews and they found that why, while hormonal imbalances can contribute to weight regulation, they rarely cause significant weight gain on their own without lifestyle factors. So that was their actual conclusion from that meta analysis. So we have to fix the basics first, then check our hormones. But blaming them too early is often just a distraction from what we can actually control. And I always tell people go test them, go test them, because one of two things is going to happen Everything's fine and now we have to point the finger back at you, or everything's jacked up and we still have to point the finger back at you because they're jacked up because of you, because of our lifestyle, because of our habits.

Isaiah Mitchell: 53:52

So, either way, it goes back to us and refocusing on the basics and what we can control.

Philip Pape: 53:59

And I think that's powerful, like once people realize that you're not calling people victims. I mean, people might make themselves victims but you're saying look, you've got the say in this and the way that you take responsibility and accountability may require getting support, may require pharmacology, we don't know, but it's probably going to require starting with the pillars of lifestyle, like you mentioned, and honestly, you can expand that and generalize it to any boogeyman, any outside, like you said, external locus of control that you're pointing at Start with yourself, do it first and then check what's left. I love that approach. See what's left? You don't know until you've eliminated those variables first. So 100% awesome. And so the final myth today is if you woke up tomorrow in your dream body, all your problems would go away, life would be perfect, it's sailing to the sunset.

Philip Pape: 54:48

You die a happy person. You never have to worry about anything again. True right.

Isaiah Mitchell: 54:54

I wish sunset, you die, a happy person, you never have to worry about anything again. True, right, I wish, I sure, I sure wish it was the case, and a lot of people seem to seem to think that's the case, and they tend to put off a lot of the uh, what I like to call inner work until they reach their destination. They're like oh, I'll just worry about that when I get there. Or even like how are we going to keep it off for the rest of your life? I'll worry about that when I get there. Or even like how are we going to keep it off for the rest of your life? I'll worry about that when I get there. Right now, I just want to get there so I can be happy, which is a whole other conversation.

Isaiah Mitchell: 55:20

It's like wait, why are we putting our happiness on hold for this thing that we don't even know if it's going to make you happy for more than five minutes or a week? But if you woke up tomorrow and you had your dream body, the excitement would last for all about five minutes, because you would very quickly get the reality check that you have no idea how to maintain it, because you're still a binger, you're still a stress eater, you're still an emotional eater, you still don't do your workouts, you still don't have a step goal set for yourself, you still don't have a wind down and sleep routine. So you've got the destination, but you don't have. You don't even know how you got there and you haven't become the person that can stay there. So the myth here is that weight loss is going to fix all your problems and fix your self worth. But the reality is losing weight can and usually does, boost your confidence, but it doesn't automatically erase insecurity, body image issues or emotional eating patterns. And in fact, research from the Journal of Health Psychology shows that body dissatisfaction often persists even after weight loss, unless deeper mindset and identity work is done. And this is 99% of my program and what I work on my clients with is the reason you became overweight in the first place, fixing that root cause deeper mindset and identity rooted issues, because nobody, myself included, becomes 100 pounds overweight because you felt like it, because it was fun, because it made life better. It doesn't. It makes everything about life worse. You are running from something, you are suppressing something. You are suppressing something or you are distracting yourself from something and the outer work losing weight, seeing the scale go down the inches, your clothes fitting differently.

Isaiah Mitchell: 57:21

The outer work without the inner work does not work, and I don't want any of the listeners here to have to go through what I did because I made this mistake. I lost 100 pounds without doing the inner work. There I was 100 pounds down, no idea where to go from there. I had no idea what reverse dieting was. I knew very little about metabolism. I sure as heck wasn't going on a bulk because that scared the crap out of me. So there I was, 21, eating 1500 calories, no sex drive, no libido. My hair was falling out and for the next four years I battled an eating disorder of that binge and restrict cycle because I never did the inner work. So trust me when I say the outer work without the inner work does not work, and if you hate yourself on the way down, you will find something new to hate when you get there. So you have to work on who you are becoming, not just on how much you weigh.

Philip Pape: 58:27

Yeah, and that's an interesting one, because people are seeking the outward manifestation of what it takes to get there with the inner work. But you can get there with superficial outer work in some way, and that can be highly misleading. Going back to our early discussion about intuitive eating, of building the skills and the proactive systems and habits underneath, that gets you there, how do people then? What should people be striving for? They come to you and they say I want to lose weight. That's their number one top thing. You then have to drill that down. I've definitely seen people's mindset evolve as you work through these and they discover oh man, this is really not about my physique, this is really not about even my health, so to speak. It's perhaps what those things get me, but it's also getting there in the right way with the right process.

Philip Pape: 59:20

So, just to kind of tie it off in a bow. How does someone listening? What should they ask themselves now about what they really want to drive them to start the proper process?

Isaiah Mitchell: 59:30

Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure you ask this question a lot too. But one of the the first questions I'll ask people when they, when we get clear on the goal you know I want to lose 50 pounds, I want to lose a hundred pounds, why, why and what do you think that is going to do for you? And then we just keep going deeper and deeper from there. You could follow that up with asking why? Five more times that eventually we'll get to the actual, uh, the actual route. But what I definitely want to leave people with on this one is just kind of a brief understanding of identity and why it's so important, especially in the game of weight loss. So, for the easiest way for me to help people conceptualize identity in this context is think of a thermostat. So I set my thermostat to 70 degrees and it's 90 degrees outside, starts to heat up the inside of the house. Thermostat goes up, it realizes that, kicks in and cools the house back off to its set point at 70.

Isaiah Mitchell: 1:00:35

The same is true for your identity in the game of weight loss. So if you label yourself, if your identity is a binger, someone who's never motivated, someone who can't be consistent, someone who always gains the weight back. Someone who starts over every Monday and then you lose 5, 10, 15, 20 pounds. That's a threat to the system. Thermostat kicks in, brings you back to your set point. I knew you'd gain the weight back. You're not motivated again, you're self-sabotaging again. That is the very thing that we have to fix, or you will struggle with weight loss for the rest of your life. There is no sugar code in it. There is no way around it. You have to fix the root. It's just like you know getting into like the functional medicine side of things, like we have to get to the actual root cause of what's causing these symptoms to manifest. Same thing here perfect usually a lot man.

Isaiah Mitchell: 1:01:30

A lot of that usually comes back from childhood.

Philip Pape: 1:01:34

Yeah, exactly. So every single one of these myths can spawn lots of discussion, lots of learning, lots of education. Guys, if you're listening to this, this is just 10 of 20 myths we're covering, because we're going to cover 10 more. On Fat Loss Forever Isaiah's podcast it should be in your feed right now. But each one of these, if anything, piqued your interest, if anything sound like a low-hanging fruit, an opportunity, something you're curious or skeptical about, please reach out to us but also dig into it further. Check out Isaiah's podcast, check out mine. We'll have links in the show notes. But, man, thank you so much for doing this, isaiah, we really covered a lot of ground, just you know, with those 10 minutes.

Philip Pape: 1:02:10

So thank you, man.

Isaiah Mitchell: 1:02:12

Absolutely, it was a pleasure. It was a pleasure. Hopefully the audience got something out of it. That's what we're here for.

Philip Pape: 1:02:17

All right, man, so I'm going to include the link in the show notes to check out Isaiah's podcast and go check out the other 10 myths that we talked about there, and I'll see you next time, man, peace out.

Why It's Perfectly OK to Chase Aesthetics (Lose Fat to Get Lean, Healthy, AND Happy) | Ep 312

Join Wits & Weights Physique University and get 2 weeks free plus access to your first challenge. Transform your physique in a way that optimizes both health and aesthetics with a personalized nutrition plan and workout programs that align with your goals. Go to witsandweights.com/physique

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Feeling guilty about wanting to look good? To have visible abs, a perky butt, or bulging biceps?

It's time to shed that unnecessary burden. 

The fitness industry has created a false dichotomy between training for health versus training for appearance, making many feel ashamed about aesthetic goals. 

Yet research reveals these pursuits are actually aligned, with the body composition that looks good typically being the same one that optimizes health markers.

You'll discover why your desire for a better physique isn't shallow but actually connected to both biological drivers and psychological well-being... and how pursuing reasonable aesthetic goals provides benefits that extend far beyond fitness.

Main Takeaways:

• Health and aesthetics aren't opposing forces; they're complementary goals that largely overlap

• The body fat levels considered visually appealing align with optimal health markers

• Pursuing aesthetic goals develops life skills that transfer to other areas

• Building muscle is both aesthetically beneficial and critically important for long-term health

Timestamps:

0:01 - Breaking free from guilt about aesthetics (how you look)
2:22 - The false divide between health and appearance 
8:27 - When clients whisper their aesthetic goals
10:17 - The science that connects looks and health
14:06 - Psychological benefits of physique goals
17:11 - The evolutionary reasons we care about looks
22:15 - Balancing aesthetics and health in practice
28:53 - How physique development skills transfer to success in life
34:30 - Embracing both health and aesthetics

Why Chasing Aesthetics Might Be the Healthiest Thing You Can Do

If you’ve ever second-guessed your desire to look lean, muscular, or just damn good in the mirror—this is your permission slip to stop apologizing. Because the idea that caring about aesthetics makes you vain, shallow, or somehow less focused on “true” health? It’s nonsense. And in this episode of Wits & Weights, I’m breaking down why your aesthetic goals might be the best thing you could do for your long-term health, confidence, and quality of life.

The False Choice Between Health and Aesthetics

There’s a narrative out there that says you have to choose between training for performance or training to look good. That if you chase visible abs or muscular arms, you’re neglecting your health or falling for toxic fitness culture.

That narrative is wrong.

In coaching, I hear it all the time: people whispering their aesthetic goals like a guilty confession—"I know I should just focus on my health… but I want to see my abs too." Here’s the thing: wanting to look better is not in conflict with improving your health. In fact, the path to an aesthetic physique overlaps almost perfectly with the path to better health.

Leaner, Stronger, Healthier: The Overlap Is Real

Let’s look at some objective data:

• Optimal body fat ranges for aesthetics—about 10–15% for men and 18–23% for women—are the same ranges associated with:

  • Lower cardiovascular risk

  • Improved insulin sensitivity

  • Better hormonal health

  • Reduced inflammation

A 2019 study in the European Heart Journal found that body fat percentage—not BMI—is one of the strongest predictors of heart disease risk. So if you’re pursuing fat loss to look more defined, you’re also putting yourself in a much better position metabolically.

On the muscle side, higher lean mass is tied to:

• Reduced all-cause mortality

• Better glucose control

• Higher resting metabolic rate

• Stronger immune function

In other words, the pursuit of a more muscular and lean physique supports your health markers across the board.

And yes, even visible abs matter. Not because they’re a badge of honor, but because lower visceral fat—the dangerous kind that wraps around your organs—tends to be associated with leanness in the abdominal area. So if your stomach is flatter, you’re not just "looking fit"—you probably are metabolically healthier.

Strength Training and Nutrition: The Foundation for Both Goals

Here’s where the methods really align:

• Resistance training is non-negotiable. It improves aesthetics, supports bone density, boosts metabolism, enhances function, and increases longevity.

• Proper nutrition—especially adequate protein and whole food intake—supports muscle retention, improves energy, regulates hormones, and makes fat loss sustainable.

There is no contradiction here. The same plan that helps you uncover your physique is the plan that improves your blood work, mental health, and stress resilience.

But What About the Mental Side?

Let’s talk psychology.

Studies show that body satisfaction is associated with lower anxiety, higher confidence, and improved well-being. When you pursue aesthetic goals in a healthy, structured way—not through crash diets or disordered habits—you tend to feel better because you’re building something. You’re working toward something. And that increases self-efficacy—the belief that you can take control of your body, your habits, and your life.

In coaching, I’ve seen this time and time again. Someone starts with the goal of getting leaner, and along the way:

• They gain confidence to ask for a promotion

• They engage more fully in relationships

• They show up with purpose, discipline, and pride

This isn't superficial. This is identity-level change. And it starts with honoring the desire to look and feel your best.

Yes, There's a Line—but Most People Aren't Even Close to It

Of course, we’re not ignoring the extremes. Competitive bodybuilding, crash dieting, or obsessing over aesthetics at the expense of your well-being—that’s not what we’re talking about.

But that’s also not where most people are.

Most people need permission to start caring about how they look, and to know that it’s not vanity. It’s self-respect.

Because the truth is, for 95% of people, chasing aesthetics improves both physical and mental health—as long as you do it with intention, evidence, and sustainability in mind.

Make It Sustainable, Trackable, and Aligned

How do you pursue this the right way?

1. Define your goals clearly: "I want a lean, muscular physique that reflects and supports optimal health." Say it out loud. It’s not selfish. It’s empowering.

2. Use the right metrics:

   • Track body composition, not just weight

   • Measure strength, mobility, and performance

   • Use biofeedback: energy, mood, libido, sleep

3. Avoid extremes: No crash diets. No endless cardio. No restrictive eating.

4. Cycle your goals: Use short fat loss phases and maintenance periods. Build muscle when you have the energy and food to support it. Don’t try to do everything all at once.

5. Leverage aesthetics as motivation: It's totally okay if you’re motivated by the mirror. Let that fuel your consistency while the deeper health benefits quietly accumulate in the background.

Final Thoughts

Looking good and feeling good are not opposites. They are deeply intertwined.

Strength training, lean mass, and moderate body fat levels are some of the strongest predictors of health, performance, and resilience—especially as we age. Aesthetic goals are not a distraction. They’re a feature, not a bug, of an optimal training and nutrition plan.

So chase the aesthetics. Build the muscle. Lose the fat. Show up in your life with confidence.

And if you want help doing it the right way—with data, structure, and support—you can always check out Wits & Weights Physique University. That’s where we guide you through a sustainable transformation built around evidence and engineering.

Because you deserve to look great and feel great—for the long haul.

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Get notified of new episodes. Listen on Apple, Spotify, or all other platforms.

Then hit “Follow” and you’re good to go!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever felt guilty about wanting to look good like, somehow wanting visible abs or defined arms makes you shallow or vain, this episode will free you from that unnecessary burden. The truth is that wanting to look athletic, lean and muscular is not just about vanity. It's deeply connected to optimal health markers, longevity and even psychological well-being. Yet many of us have been made to feel ashamed about aesthetic goals, as if pursuing a better physique means we're somehow superficial or missing the real point of fitness. Today, we're challenging this false dichotomy between health and aesthetics, revealing the overwhelming evidence that they're actually aligned. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:12

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are tackling something that I see all the time in coaching and online discussions, social media, and that is the false divide between training for health and training for aesthetics. And you've probably heard things before like focus on your health, not how you look, or train for performance, not appearance, and these are all well-meaning statements that are, in some cases, trying to focus you on a goal which is completely understandable, but in many cases, it creates a false choice that leaves a lot of people I'm sure, yourself included, feeling guilty because you want both and you always feel kind of torn between them. And then you might come to me saying, hey, which one do I do next? But let's talk about what the actual research says, because I effectively want to give you some permission to embrace both. And what if I told you that the research actually shows a substantial overlap between what makes us healthy and what makes us look good? And that's what we're looking at today. We're going to examine why it is completely fine, even beneficial, to pursue aesthetic goals alongside health goals, and why they are often the same exact journey.

Philip Pape: 2:22

Whether you're trying to build muscle, lose fat, improve your overall body composition, I want you to walk away understanding why these pursuits both serve your health and your happiness. And, before we get into it, if you are ready to transform your physique in a way that optimizes both health and aesthetics, I want to encourage you to join our Wits and Weights Physique University. Now, the name of that program, physique, can be a little misleading, because people again think looks, look like you lift, that's great. But we also take a science-backed, systematic, systematic, systematic approach to building your ideal body, one that looks great and functions optimally, because, again. They go together so you can join, get two weeks free, kick the tires, get your first challenge, free access to your custom nutrition plan. For me, um, all the things for free, right from day one, full access. Just go to wits and weightscom, slash physique or click the link in the show notes. Yeah, there's lots of other things in there, like custom workout programs dropped every month. There's a monthly challenge. There's, of course, a very supportive community where you can be vulnerable and share what's going on and get help in a private setting and keep you accountable. So witsandweightscom slash physique, click the link in the show notes and again, just transparently. As far as pricing, once the free trial is over, it's87 a month. I mean, you're not going to find something that is pretty close to one-on-one coaching where I'm extremely involved as a coach for that price.

Philip Pape: 3:50

So remember, looking good, being healthy or not, competing goals, they're complementary and that's what we're talking about today and it's also what we teach in Physique University. All right, so let's get into why. It is perfectly fine to chase aesthetics and break it down into three sections. I like to be organized. So the first section we are going to explore this false dichotomy right that is abstract and created by the industry, I would say or created by coaches in many cases between health and aesthetics. Second, we are going to examine the science showing the overlap between aesthetic goals and health markers, and then, finally, we're going to discuss how to approach aesthetic goals in a balanced and sustainable way, because what we are not pushing here is some sort of extreme get shredded and, uh, wreck your hormones type of approach. Even if you do have a goal to, say, compete in a bodybuilding show or something like that, which is an extreme um, there are ways where you're living day to day where you can chase both goals, All right.

Philip Pape: 4:51

So, starting with the false dichotomy, there is a narrative that you must choose between training for health or training for looks, and when I did my coaching certification, we learned something called the iron triangle. Is it the iron triangle? Yes, I think that's what it is, and I actually still. I still teach that, I still talk to my clients about it. It's the idea that if you want to improve, say, your aesthetics, there's a point in time where you're going to have to focus more on fat loss than on trying to push your gains, but there's also time you're going to focus more on gains to build that muscle base before we go to fat loss. So in that perspective, yes, there are some trade-offs that always have to be made if you're going to go all after a specific goal in the short term. But in the long or in the medium term not even the long term, the medium term, like a year or two out you can combine these different periods, what we call periodization and ultimately get the best of it all, doing it in an efficient way.

Philip Pape: 5:49

So that's kind of what I'm talking about today and that's in contrast to what you hear in the industry, like the functional fitness crowd that says you know, aesthetics are shallow pursuits. You always have to have a deeper reason for this, like there's something wrong with you or you have body dysmorphia or disordered whatever, and again, the actual disordered whatever is outside the scope of today's podcast. We are talking about a healthy pursuit of aesthetics, even sometimes for its own goal, and that is okay. On the other hand, you also have physique competitors who push the extremes of aesthetics that might temporarily compromise your health and we talk about on the show, like the cost of going to that extreme. But I think this is a false choice. I think it's like saying that you have to choose between enjoying food and fueling your body and eating nutritiously. Why not both? Why not both? I heard on a podcast recently them talking about the no sugar challenge they were going through and how much of a struggle it was, and I thought well, that's because you're trying to cut something out completely, when, in fact, you can enjoy foods with sugar but also have lots of nutritious foods alongside them and have a great dietary pattern.

Philip Pape: 7:02

So, anyway, the dichotomy probably came up in a few different places. I think the first place is the legitimate reaction against the unhealthy extremes of bodybuilding and physique competitions, and when you see Instagram physiques where competitors might sacrifice health for stage ready appearance. Now there are some people doing this in a very controlled, deliberate, precise way, where there is still a short-term sacrifice to these things, for sure, but they know how to minimize that and they do it in a and I'll call it a healthy way, even though the pursuit itself may still be extreme. Then there's the marketing angle right, the camps, the health longevity camps, the aesthetic stamps. I mean these are to the extreme as well. You have longevity camps talking about not eating very much protein Somehow that helps with longevity, or biohacking to death, my 200 supplement stack or all sorts of gadgets and equipment and programs that sell all these different products and, at the end of the day, they're trying to sell you something. Heck, I'm trying to sell you something. I'm trying to sell you a healthy result that you can live with for the rest of your life, just to be honest. So that's what I'm trying to sell you, that's what I've gotten for myself through lots of hard knocks and hope to accelerate the process for you through this podcast, and do it in a very reasonable, evidence-based, nuanced, personalized way.

Philip Pape: 8:27

And then, finally, we have the well-intentioned but misguided attempt to make fitness more inclusive by downplaying aesthetics right, and again, the attention is good and I get. We all need our boogeyman and it's great for a clickbait or a podcast episode where you're trying to appeal to people who may have self-doubt about their physique at the moment and feel like they can't get there, and so you focus and sit on these other things, or someone who's older and they're like, well, I don't really care how I look, I care more about my bone density or living a long life, and, and that's fine, and again, your personal reason for doing it is your own and I like that. We want fitness to be accessible to everyone. But I think it does inadvertently shame people who do care about their appearance. Again, not you as an individual who's saying that's what you want, but the industry as a whole by somehow calling out people who want to improve their look as a bad thing, calling out people who want to improve their look as a bad thing. And I've worked with numerous clients who you know they initially like they whisper their aesthetic goals right. They almost apologize about it. They say things like well, I know I should really focus on health and being a role model for my kids and living a long life, but I really want to see my abs too. And they say it like with some guilt and shame, as if this desire is something to be embarrassed about. But that desire is not shallow, it is human, it is normal and it's often aligned with health. There's often a biological drive for why we want to look good. Let's just admit that. Okay, and I know looking good is very subjective, but there's aspects of it that are actually universal and objective that we can get into. So this brings us to the second segment today, which is the quite remarkable overlap between aesthetic goals and health markers. That even I was surprised about when I researched for this episode.

Philip Pape: 10:17

And again, let's just go and look what the science tells us. Let's first talk about body composition, which is one of the main emphases Is that plural for emphasis? Emphasis of this show is not focusing on weight loss, but focusing on body composition. The composition of body fat to lean mass and body fat percentages that are, I'll say, typically considered aesthetically pleasing, based on studies and people's reporting and surveys, is around 10 to 15% for men and around 18 to 23% for women. And guess what? Those body fat ranges align almost perfectly with optimal health markers, where maintaining body fat in these ranges correlates with better insulin sensitivity, improved hormonal profiles, reduced inflammation, lower risk of chronic diseases like heart disease, diabetes, certain cancers. I mean we know that the vast majority of these things are correlated with obesity, which is correlated with lifestyle, and it's all connected. So there was a study in 2019 in the European Heart Journal that found that body fat percentage was a stronger predictor of heart disease risk than BMI alone. And there have just been so many studies that show that and it's probably obvious at this point to many of us, especially when we talk about how BMI is not sufficient usually to detect some of these risks. You know, body roundness and body fat tend to be better indicators and the sweet spot for the lowest risk of heart disease is right in the range. That is also what most people consider visually appealing, right.

Philip Pape: 11:55

Again, this is trying to make this a little more objective and numbers-based. And then, if we look at the muscle mass side so that's body fat we look at the muscle mass side. You know the, the defined muscular physique that many pursue, that I'm still pursuing, raising my hand, like I. I didn't start pursuing it properly until my forties and I'm only 44 and I have a long way to go. Like my goal is to keep getting younger every year and notice younger means look good and feel good and perform well and be healthier. Uh, but anyway it's it. Anyway it's not just for show, even though many pursue it for that, especially younger dudes, let's say, or certain you know, if you're going for competitive aspirations, higher muscle mass We've talked about it many times on this show, but I can emphasize again it's associated with improved metabolic health, better glucose control, stronger immune function, even reduced mortality.

Philip Pape: 12:46

Right, not in and of itself right, we still need to have a reasonable level of body fat, right. We can't go to the other extreme and say it's only about muscle. But you've got to have muscle is kind of my point. There's a 2018 meta-analysis in the Journal of Kachexia, sarcopenia and Muscle that found that higher muscle mass was associated with lower all-cause mortality. And that's just again. I'm picking individual studies. Try to focusing on meta-analysis where they look at multiple studies, but you probably don't need me to convince you that muscle mass is important, even like superficial abs, right.

Philip Pape: 13:21

Having a six-pack or eight-pack or whatever that many of us chase can have health significance. When we flip it a little bit and talk about visceral fat around your organs your abdominal fat, which is metabolically more active and associated with increased inflammation and disease risk and all sorts of health issues so you could argue that a visible six pack doesn't just look good. It indicates lower visceral fat and therefore better health. It doesn't mean you have to get to the point of that level of being shredded. I do want to give that caveat. It just means that if you are lean in your belly area, there's probably some things you're doing right from a health perspective, assuming you haven't gone to like an extreme of getting too shredded right Now.

Philip Pape: 14:06

What about the process of getting there? Well, the method used to improve aesthetics resistance training, proper nutrition, are exactly what anyone, including health authorities, most fitness professionals myself recommend for optimal health. Like, resistance training is a non-negotiable in my opinion. Right, yes, being active, yes, moving, yes, managing sleep and stress, but resistance training is non-negotiable. And I would say sufficient protein and nutrients are the other non-negotiable that has a little bit more flexibility in what we mean.

Philip Pape: 14:42

It's not like binary, in the same way that resistance training is binary. Like you have to do that, um, it's more the levels that you need. Uh, but there is no other path there. There is no other path, right, you can't. You can't improve your health and longevity with running. In fact, you probably are going to set it back. You can't improve it with just yoga or just mindfulness and meditation, and I say just because those things are all great, not the running, but you know, walking is far superior, of course, for fat loss and longevity and health.

Philip Pape: 15:13

But all those other things for your mental state, fine, you can do, them, great, but they are not going to give you what you need without strength training and the quote, unquote, functional strength that we've touched on just here and there I'm not a big fan of the word. We had Lorenzo, um, lauren, lauren, colenzo Semple on from mass talking all about that topic. Right, it's a real misnomer in the industry, um, but the Any program that purports to develop functional strength is probably doing so through some form of resistance training. Even the things that I don't like so much, like CrossFit, the strength and the barbell, part of that is still thinking in terms of, hey, we need to load you up and push those muscles and challenge you. The only difference is how they're marketed and then also whether they achieve that efficiently. But you've got to resistance train, you've got to have proper nutrition, and those give you good aesthetics and good health.

Philip Pape: 16:06

So now let's touch on something that is often overlooked or maybe not talked about enough, and that is the psychological benefits of aestheticals, not the detriments. Right, we know we can talk about the dark side, but I care about how we look matters to us psychologically, because I wouldn't want you to pursue a goal like that if it was harmful to your mental health. Studies consistently show that body image impacts our mental health. It impacts your self-confidence and your well-being, which is why it's so important. Which way do we push the needle on this? There was a 2020 review in Body Image that found that satisfaction was associated with no, I'm sorry that body satisfaction was associated with better mental health outcomes across the board. Right, when we achieve our aesthetic goals, we often experience more confidence, reduced anxiety, greater satisfaction with ourselves, and so, to me, these are not shallow outcomes. These are legitimate psychological benefits.

Philip Pape: 17:11

Right, we focus a lot on things like body positivity and people's self-doubt and negative self-talk about their bodies, but we don't focus enough on the fact that those same people probably want to improve their. But we don't focus enough on the fact that those same people probably want to improve their body as well and need to be encouraged in a positive way to go. Do that, not shame them for it, but also not settle for where they are now. There's always a way to improve, and I've seen clients transform massively, not just physically, but mentally, when they achieve the physique that they've worked for, and it's okay. That's why I'm making this show, guys. It's okay to go after that because, at the end of the day, they all serve the same purpose.

Philip Pape: 17:52

Right, there are things like changes in your posture that have profound impacts not just on health, but also confidence. Right, I hear from clients how they're able to engage more confidently in a social situation. Maybe it's because people judge you for how you look. Maybe it's simply because they know they're accomplishing something that very few other people are and they can stand tall and proud. Right, maybe they haven't lost all the body fat or gotten to exactly where they want, but the change and the process and method are really what's bringing them the confidence right. Lifting heavy not even heavy, just lifting at all and making progress. And they often say look, I feel more capable in this area of my life, this area of my life, my relationships, my friends with my job okay, those are positive.

Philip Pape: 18:40

Now, let's not deny, let's not be delusional about the unhealthy extremes that could occur. Body dysmorphia and eating disorders are out there. They are serious concerns, right? Holly Baxter talked about her own past with eating disorders and she's a physique competitor, but she does it in the right way. Now you know, pursuing reasonable aesthetic goals as part of a balanced approach to fitness does not cause these issues. Let's be clear it can actually improve your body image when approached in a healthy, constructive way, which is exactly why I don't like restrictive dieting, crash diets, demonizing foods, moving ahead with poor relationships to food, because they're all tied into your body, your safety, your security, your self-image, all of that. But if we can make the process itself positive, we can make the outcome that comes from it, of improved body image, also positive. Does that make sense? I hope that makes sense. It does to me. Maybe I'm off my rocker. I think it makes sense.

Philip Pape: 19:41

Then there's the evolutionary angle. That's worth considering. You know I mentioned biology. I think it's important to touch on because our appreciation for these you know, beauty standards or aesthetic qualities it isn't arbitrary, like it's deeply rooted in biological signals of health and reproductive fitness. There's a reason that we are attracted to certain people from a young age, I mean around the time of puberty. Look back to it and just think about the hormonal chaos you had in your teenage years and how you're attracted to certain forms of things that you find beautiful. Right, and don't be ashamed of that.

Philip Pape: 20:16

From an evolutionary standpoint, visual cues of health, clear skin, symmetrical features, favorable body composition have been valuable indicators of genetic fitness. This is evolution. Our ancestors couldn't run blood panels, they didn't do DEXA scans, obviously, they didn't even have like barbells to lift, but they relied on visual cues to assess health when selecting a mate. And again, it's a little bit subjective, right, there have been times when being on the heavier side was actually considered valuable and a sign of health, robustness and wealth too. So it's not to say that this is a perfect correlation by any means. Let's acknowledge that. But there are biological reasons nonetheless. So when you find yourself drawn to a certain physique, whether it's muscle definition or a particular body shape or overall leanness, you're probably responding unconsciously to deeply ingrained biological signals that historically correlated with health and genetic fitness. Right, the ability to spread your seeds, to pass along your DNA to offspring who will have the best chance of surviving in the world.

Philip Pape: 21:29

Now, that doesn't mean that all beauty standards are biologically determined. Again, nuance guys. Nuance, right. Don't hold me to a what do you call it? Soundbite. That's why I like long form here.

Philip Pape: 21:41

Right, cultural factors play a huge role. Let's acknowledge that, right. If we understand the evolutionary basis that's like the baseline we can then help explain why certain physique goals persist across cultures and time periods and they tend to cycle back and forth but stay within kind of a range. And then it also suggests that our desire to look a certain way is not shallow. It is also not culturally imposed, right, it is partially hardwired and that's nothing to be ashamed of Like. Just acknowledging reality of your biology is nothing to be ashamed of.

Philip Pape: 22:15

So now let's talk about how to approach aesthetic goals in a balanced, sustainable way that actually enhances health rather than compromise and I include mental health in there, for sure, body image. So first, recognize, health and aesthetics exist on a spectrum, right, they're not in opposition, they're not mutually exclusive, and that goes back to the whole triangle idea where you have trade-offs and you can't, you can't pursue all in parallel to the nth degree, you know, to the 10th degree, whatever, I'm trying to say, to the maximum degree. And they're on a spectrum, but they're not exclusive, they're not an opposition. The methods stack on each other. The methods that improve your health markers, like your nutrition, your resistance training, having adequate sleep, managing your stress, also enhance aesthetics up to a point. It's only at those extremes, like bodybuilding, competition prep or extreme endurance training, right, marathon runners, long distance runners where the true exclusive trade-offs might appear, if I'm to put it that way. I mean, you know that just visually you look at a marathon, an elite marathon runner. They probably don't have a physique that most people aspire to. Let's be honest, right. And then you look at somebody who's an extreme bodybuilding competitor, especially enhanced, because if you're enhanced on steroids now you're messing with your health in other ways. But even if they're not, they've made some sacrifices to their health and longevity. Yes, at least in the moment. A lot of it is recoverable, but at least in the moment to get there. So we're not really talking about that. For the vast majority of us in the middle you know 95% pursuing both simultaneously aesthetics and health is not only possible, but it's actually optimal. It's optimal. So I wanna give you that permission to go after them together.

Philip Pape: 24:05

The second thing is you want to set goals that serve both purposes and make sure they're logical, they're rational, right. So instead of saying I want six-pack abs or I want to lower my cholesterol, try. I want to achieve a lean, muscular physique that reflects and supports optimal health. This is the framing, and again, we're talking about the big goal. We're not necessarily talking about the short-term goals. This is a framing, positive framing. It acknowledges both aspects but doesn't privilege one over the other. So I'll say that again, if you want to repeat it with me as kind of a mantra. I want to achieve a lean, muscular physique that reflects and supports optimal health. Just one way to do it. You might put it in your own words.

Philip Pape: 24:45

And then, third, I want you to use metrics and data that capture both health and aesthetics. You knew I would get to this eventually. We're all about engineering data, measuring, tracking, experimenting and doing what works for you. So body composition, which is the ratio of fat to lean mass, is going to be far more informative than weight alone, even though you need to track weight as well. Now, I don't get hung up in trying to exactly calculate body fat. It's more of the change in your body composition over time. Are you building muscle and losing fat? Is your waist shrinking while your biceps are growing, for example? Right, and a lot of this comes through look and feel and performance, as well as proxies for body composition.

Philip Pape: 25:25

Speaking of performance metrics, what are those? Strength? There could be some cardiovascular metrics, but I prefer things like stress metrics, hrv, as opposed to, say, vo2 max. I think that is much less useful, especially if you're looking for body composition improvement. If you're looking for body composition improvement, Um, but resting heart rate is a good metric for health for sure, right, blood markers like lipids, uh, and what did I say? Yeah, um, and your blood pressure, even your movement quality, and it's kind of how do you? How do you track that? Well, some of you may have issues with your joints and you can track the level of pain or level of mobility in those joints and how that improves over time. Right, many people they start lifting, their back pain goes away, their knees feel better, their elbows, their shoulders feel better to a point, right, unless you go too extreme in the other direction. So you can track all of these things and then you know that's just tracking.

Philip Pape: 26:16

And then how do you put all this together to make sense? Well, that's where the sustainability comes in, and I kind of I feel like I overused that word and we're not talking about energy sustainability. We're talking about can it be sustained for life, not just for a year or three years or five years, but for life. It's going to cycle through. You're going to have different sub goals and periodization where you go to more extremes in different directions, but overall it's still a sustainable approach.

Philip Pape: 26:40

Crash diets are not sustainable, right? Even if you want to go after a very rapid, aggressive fat loss phase, which is something that I can teach you to do for an advanced person who's done all the other things first. We're still going to do it in a way that doesn't harm your health, that maintains your muscle, that maintains your protein, that gives you refeeds for your energy and that keeps it really, really short, right? I'm talking about crash diets like restrictive diets, where you're not really in control. You're just cutting, cutting, cutting. You lose a bunch of weight really fast. It might temporarily improve your appearance Probably not, because you're probably going to lose muscle along with some fat, and it's going to harm your health anyway. It's going to wreck everything.

Philip Pape: 27:20

To be honest, extreme exercise same idea, lots of cardio, right? Put that in the equation. I just spoke to someone yesterday on a rapid nutrition assessment and I could tell exactly what her problem was. She tries to lift weights seven days a week and it's like a YouTube workout and she's with like 10-pound dumbbells, right. So right there, I know she's doing a cardio endurance type approach. It's probably stressing her out and it's not building muscle. So it has both of the opposite of what we want when it comes to aesthetics and health.

Philip Pape: 27:51

Again, because they are aligned and show up for fairly easily I'm going to put it that way easily, even though there's always effort involved, but fairly low friction, where you are progressing gradually in a way that serves both health and aesthetics, without getting so extreme and losing patience that you haven't gotten it all tomorrow. So I'm getting a little long-winded today, but I think this is an important topic and I did want to share something that might surprise you a bit about the relationship between aesthetic goals and everyday life. And it's a pretty cool thing that I've learned talking to very skilled bodybuilders, physique competitors I think of, for example oh my gosh, revive Stronger. You guys know who that is. What's his name? Host of Revive Stronger. He was on the show man I am blanking out right now, I'm not going to look it up anyway. He, um, steve Steve Hall. There we go. He was.

Philip Pape: 28:53

He and Dr Eric Helms and others like him, um have demonstrated how the skills and the mindset you develop while pursuing aesthetic goals can transfer really well to other areas of life. I think there's a little bit of a push, a little bit of an extreme that we go after with some of this, and I hate to use the word extreme, it's just discomfort, expanding your comfort zone and pushing yourself to grow the essence of the struggle, of the human condition. For those of us who really love and relish life every day, it's because we are going after it. We are improving something, maybe everything all day in some meaningful way. We have purpose right. And so that skill, that mindset, it applies pretty darn well to aesthetic goals, to strength, to performance, all of it, even if you do shift around in the very micro goals that you pursue.

Philip Pape: 29:44

Think about what it takes to transform your physique Consistent effort over time, delayed gratification, patience, strategic planning, but also measuring your progress and adapting to the challenges, to the plan, like the black line versus blue line thinking that I talked about on a recent episode, managing setbacks, all of that. These are not just fitness skills, they are life skills, and I've worked with a lot of clients who didn't really have that baseline of those skills in their life in general. And by going through that process together for health, voila guess what? Now they've got confidence and a system and an approach that they can apply to learning an instrument, becoming a better gardener, becoming a leader in work, improving their relationship the list goes on and on. It's incredible, and I've observed clients who transform their physiques and the language.

Philip Pape: 30:39

The narrative that comes out of their mouth evolves to this almost sometimes shock at the improvements that they have that were unexpected in their careers, relationships or personal projects. It's kind of like something I've experienced on a smaller level when I joined Toastmasters years ago and I worked on my speaking skills and I thought, well, I'm going to become a better presenter by doing this. No, it was far more than that. I became more confident in every meeting at work. I could speak to you know, executives and customers in a way that I felt like their peer and that we could really engage in an intellectual level, all because I could communicate.

Philip Pape: 31:15

So don't discount the discipline, the systems, thinking, the growth mindset that you can develop through physique transformation. We're not going after short-term before and after photos here. We are going for long-term transformation in who you are, your identity, your systems. I can remember a client who lost a decent amount of weight and by weight I mean fat and built a bunch of muscle at the same time, and he said you know, something like I used to think that I couldn't stick with anything hard. Right, that was his identity. Now I know I can commit to something long-term and then see it through and he just he had to go through this process, and I think the physique development process is a good way to do it because it can give you a lot of quick wins along the way and your physique will change, like it. It just will, if you do this right.

Philip Pape: 32:08

And if it's not, if you're listening to this or watching this right now and you're like, yeah, but that hasn't happened for me, you just don't have the right approach and that's okay. Like that's not a judgment on you, that's an objective fact that I want you to get on board with me about and say, okay. Well then, I know that Philip is telling me there is an approach that'll work. What the heck is that? Talk about that on this podcast, but you're always welcome to reach out to me one-on-one. I'm not going to bite. Hit me up in the Facebook group, send me a message on Instagram at Wits and Weights. Send me a question at witsandweightscom slash question and I'll talk to you like a person, like a human, about what it takes. I'll send you a free episode or resource. I'm not here to sell you anything. If you need my help, you'll ask for it.

Philip Pape: 32:49

Another client that I can think of that came to mind. She had a thing at work where she wanted to have a promotion or she wanted to get into a leadership role, mainly because she was super stressed at what she was doing. I get this a lot with clients who they're stressed in their jobs and part of the thing we work through is are you even in the right role right now, or is there a way we can mitigate this with everything else you're doing? By the way, lifting weights tends to reduce your stress anyway. But she said, you know, I was confident enough because of the physical transformation and, mind you, she didn't lose a lot of weight on the scale, but she built muscle, improved her physique, had a better posture, just felt like she could go after it. And then she went and asked and she got the promotion right, like stuff like that really makes me happy and proud for them, because this transfer effect it's not anecdotal. I mean research shows this consistently.

Philip Pape: 33:40

I did some training in positive psychology and it is clear that self-efficacy, your belief in your ability to succeed, generalizes across domains. Okay, success in one challenging area builds confidence that transfers to others. So why not do it with your body? Because then you get all sorts of benefits, including a long lifespan and healthspan. That then translates to other things. It's pretty awesome, right? So when you pursue aesthetic goals in a healthy, systematic way that's what we're talking about You're not just building a better body, right. You are building better life capabilities and profound benefits that go far beyond the superficial. All right. So let's wrap it up here, and I want to emphasize the key message it's perfectly fine to chase aesthetics. In fact, it's normal, it's healthy. It is often in fact, almost always aligned with optimal health outcomes.

Philip Pape: 34:30

The body composition that looks good in the mirror is typically the same one that produces favorable health markers. Yes, you'll go through periods where you carry a little extra body fat. Some of the numbers start to drift and you're doing it on purpose, to build muscle. But then you come back the other way you lose some fat and, all of a sudden, everything is even better than it was before. Plus, you tend to eat more food and carry a little more body weight without having to worry about it. The training right, the strength training that builds the physique is the same training that enhances your capability, your function, your hormones, your longevity building muscle. If you're not doing that, I'm sorry. You are just not going to have this result. There's no way to do it. Otherwise, the nutrition that reveals your muscle definition, right Fat loss and maintaining a healthy body weight is the same approach that supports internal health. When you're getting enough nutrients, enough protein, enough hydration, enough, you know, just energy, calories, that's healthy. So let go of any guilt that you might feel about wanting to look good right now. Let it go. Let go. You can look good, it's okay. You can want to look good, it's okay.

Philip Pape: 35:40

Embrace the aesthetic goals and just think of it as a comprehensive part or a part of your comprehensive approach to fitness. It honors. It honors how your body looks and how it functions together. So remember three principles. I'm going to leave you with this. Three principles One health and aesthetics are not opposing forces. They complement each other and they largely overlap. Number two the methods. The process that produces optimal health also creates an appealing physique as a byproduct. And number three pursuing reasonable aesthetic goals. Right, I said reasonable aesthetic goals can also provide psychological, mental health benefits and life skills that extend way beyond fitness to everything in your life. And when you approach it this way, thoughtfully, patiently, the pursuit of an aesthetic physique does not detract from health but enhances it in so many ways, and that is something worth striving for as a human being on this earth. So get after it.

Philip Pape: 36:40

And one way to get after it is to transform your physique using evidence in a systematic way, tracking it the right way, and we help you do that in Wits and Weights Physique University. We give you a personalized nutrition plan when you join. So here's how it works. You join, you get a nice prescriptive set of steps from me, an onboarding course where you submit an intake literally on day one. You could do it within minutes. I look at that within a couple of days. Give you back a plan that shows you how to map out all of this stuff.

Philip Pape: 37:11

Okay, and it it can be overwhelming at first. So what we do is we guide you through step-by-step. Here's how you track this. Here's how you track that. Here's the one thing you want to start this week. And then here's how to stay accountable. You want to check in every week with us and, yeah, there's a lot of bells and whistles and courses and challenges and all that. You don't have to do any of that. Just come join us, get the plan.

Philip Pape: 37:32

I mean, that alone is worth a year in the program, in my opinion, and I've had people cancel in the first two weeks because maybe they said they couldn't afford it or they weren't sure if the program was for them. And I'll say here I'm going to give you a plan anyway as a parting gift. And I've had a few of those people then say, oh wait, this is actually super valuable. I want to stay in and find out how to apply it to my life. So join now. It's a free trial for two weeks. You get to kick the tires. You could get your nutrition plan as part of that and, even if you cancel, you got it for free.

Philip Pape: 38:02

Go to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes Again witsandweightscom slash physique. And there's a demo there. By the way right, I don't keep anything hidden there's a video of me walking you through with a screen. Share what the heck the program looks like. So there's no risk whatsoever. Give it a shot. Remember that looking good and being healthy are not competing goals, right, they are complimentary, and I definitely want to show you how to achieve both. But for now and until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that pursuing an aesthetic physique is not shallow or vain. When approached properly, it is a natural expression of your desire to optimize your body's appearance and function. This is Philip Pape and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Are Low-Carb Diets Spiking Your Cortisol and Tanking Your Metabolism? | Ep 311

Download your free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide at witsandweights.com/free to learn exactly how to set up your macros (including CARBS!), calories, and meal timing to support your metabolism.

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Your "healthy" low-carb diet might be secretly working against you by elevating your stress hormones and slowing your metabolism.

Beyond the immediate effects of energy crashes and stalled weight loss, emerging research reveals a deeper, more concerning connection between carb restriction, stress hormones, and metabolic health.

If you've been experiencing (or want to avoid) energy crashes, stalled fat loss, or feeling unusually stressed, there could be a physiological connection between your carbohydrate intake and cortisol levels that's sabotaging your results.

This episode reveals the research-backed connection between low-carb diets and elevated cortisol, and how this hormonal response can trigger a cascade of metabolic effects that make fat loss harder, not easier.

Discover the optimal carb approach that supports your metabolism, thyroid function, and training performance while keeping stress hormones in check.

Main Takeaways:

• Low-carb diets trigger a stress response that elevates cortisol, even without a calorie deficit

• Chronically elevated cortisol can suppress hormones and slow your metabolic rate

• Carb timing can help manage cortisol levels

• Carbs should be reintroduced gradually if you've been on a very low-carb diet

Episode Resources:

• Download the Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Timestamps:

0:00 - Why low-carb diets might be working against you
2:25 - The hidden connection between carbs, stress, and metabolism
4:13 - How carb restriction increases cortisol levels
7:04 - Impact on thyroid function and metabolic rate
9:39 - What happens to workouts and performance
12:49 - Finding your optimal carb intake
17:23 - Tips to reintroduce (or increase) carbs in your diet
22:58 - The bidirectional relationship between cortisol and metabolism

The Hidden Link Between Low-Carb Diets, High Cortisol, and a Slower Metabolism

If you've been on a low-carb diet and feel like your fat loss has stalled—or worse, you're gaining weight despite eating "clean"—there may be something deeper going on. We’re not just talking about energy dips or missing out on your favorite foods. We’re talking about what happens to your hormones and metabolism when you restrict carbs too aggressively, for too long.

And it’s not good.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we’re looking at how chronic low-carb diets can spike cortisol, suppress thyroid function, and tank your metabolism—even if you’re not in a calorie deficit. If that sounds counterintuitive, it’s because most people have been sold the myth that carbs are the enemy. But your physiology tells a very different story.

Why Your Body Sees Low-Carb as Stress

Let’s start with this simple fact: Your body sees severe carb restriction as a threat. Whether you’re eating fewer than 50g of carbs a day on keto, doing “lazy low-carb,” or cycling in and out without much structure, your body perceives this as a form of physiological stress.

When carbs are low:

• Glucose becomes scarce (especially for your brain and muscles)

• Cortisol (your stress hormone) ramps up to maintain energy balance

• Your metabolism starts shifting into conservation mode

In one study published in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, participants on a low-carb diet saw significantly elevated cortisol levels compared to a moderate-carb group—even when calories were the same.

So this isn’t just about dieting. It’s about how your body responds to macronutrient balance, especially if you’re already stressed from work, training, or poor sleep.

Cortisol Isn’t Just a Stress Hormone—it Affects Your Thyroid and Metabolism

Elevated cortisol over time can suppress your thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), which in turn reduces your T3—the hormone responsible for keeping your metabolism running efficiently.

This means:

• Fewer calories burned at rest

• Slower fat loss (even at the same intake)

• More muscle breakdown (catabolism)

• A cycle of fatigue, cravings, and poor recovery

A suppressed metabolic rate doesn’t just make fat loss harder. It can also create a false plateau, where you’re technically in a deficit but your body has adapted and slowed down energy output to match.

And no, it’s not just “water weight” from carb depletion. That’s part of it, sure, but the underlying issue is hormonal strain—especially if you're also dieting, training hard, or under psychological stress.

Common Symptoms of Chronic Low-Carb Stress

If any of these sound familiar, your carb intake might be too low:

• Constant fatigue, especially after workouts

• Poor sleep or trouble falling asleep

• Feeling “wired but tired” at night

• Digestive issues or food sensitivities

• Constant food cravings

• Flat, unmotivated training sessions

• Mood swings or anxiety

Even if your weight loss started strong, it may have hit a wall. That’s likely your cortisol talking.

Why Moderate Carbs Support a Healthier Metabolism

When you start increasing carbs—especially around training and in the evening—research shows that you can:

• Reduce circulating cortisol

• Improve thyroid hormone output (especially T3)

• Support better sleep and recovery

• Increase glycogen stores for training performance

• Reduce food cravings and promote satiety

Most active individuals who strength train should get 30–40% of their calories from carbs, or simply structure their meals so that carbs fill in the rest after hitting protein and fat targets. This allows you to eat for performance, recovery, mood, and metabolism—not just the scale.

When Is It OK to Go Lower on Carbs?

There are times when carbs will dip—mainly during aggressive fat loss phases. But even then:

• Keep carbs as high as you can while maintaining a calorie deficit

• Make sure protein is anchored and fat intake is sufficient

• Time carbs around your workouts for energy and recovery

• Don’t diet so aggressively that your carbs drop to zero

And always remember: fat loss is about energy balance, not carb restriction. Cutting carbs isn’t magic—it just reduces calories (and water weight). The rest is mostly hormonal chaos.

How to Transition Off a Low-Carb Diet (Without Gaining Weight)

If you’ve been low-carb for a while, here’s how to increase carbs without derailing progress:

1. Titrate slowly: Start by adding 25g/day for a week. Then increase again if needed. This gives your gut, metabolism, and blood sugar time to adjust.

2. Pull from fat first: If your fat intake is high (which it probably is on low-carb), reduce fat slightly as you increase carbs to keep total calories stable.

3. Time carbs wisely: Prioritize carbs around training and dinner. This improves performance and recovery while managing cortisol and sleep.

4. Track your biofeedback: Energy, sleep, mood, hunger, training performance—monitor them closely before and after adding carbs.

5. Focus on whole foods: Fruits, potatoes, rice, oats, whole grains—these bring fiber, hydration, and micronutrients, not just calories.

Carbs are a tool. When used right, they support not just energy and performance but also the hormonal balance that drives fat loss and muscle retention.

It’s Not About Being Anti-Low-Carb

This episode isn’t here to demonize low-carb diets. For some people, they may still have a role. But if you’ve been stuck, fatigued, or frustrated with your progress—and you’re not eating enough carbs—it’s time to question the dogma.

Because if your metabolism is running on fumes, you’re not just making fat loss harder… you’re making everything harder.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:00

We've talked about the benefits of carbs for muscle, for energy, for performance but what about the detriments of a low-carb diet in and of itself? Many times, people who are on a low-carb diet will experience energy crashes, stalls in their weight loss, stalls in their performance in the gym, and there's a reason for this that we don't often talk about. That has to do with cortisol and your metabolic rate. So today we are talking about how your quote-unquote healthy low-carb diet might be working against you, and then how to have a more flexible approach that you're probably going to enjoy more anyway and will help you get the results you want. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're talking about carbs again, but from a different angle. There is a connection between lower-carb diets and both cortisol and your metabolic rate. That I think is really, really important and causes things like stalled fat loss, like crashing energy, feeling unusually stressed, and many people experience these symptoms, but they don't connect them to their carbohydrate intake. The research now suggests that there is a physiological reason for this. There is a hormonal chain reaction that can slow your metabolism and potentially make fat loss harder, not easier. Obviously, anything that reduces your expenditure, your metabolism, the amount of calories you burn every day, is going to make this harder, because you're going to have to eat less, potentially to maintain the deficit, or you're going to have slower fat loss at the same intake. And, of course, the less you eat, the less energy you have, the hungrier you are. There's a cascade of things that are just not good. We always want a higher level of energy, a higher level of energy flux, even when we're trying to go for a fat loss. And while the keto community, the low carb communities, everyone who's just low carb, maybe even carnivore they often dismiss these concerns or they say that there are other reasons. The evidence is becoming harder and harder to ignore, not to mention the outcomes. Right, when we see something like people on higher carb diets can build a lot more muscle, there's a reason they have more energy coming in, more recovery ability. But there are also negatives in the other direction when you have low carbs that prevent the fat loss you're trying to achieve.

Philip Pape: 2:25

And I'm not here to demonize low carb approaches. I never do. I never demonize low carb in and of itself. What I say is that you want to eat in a way that supports what you need and what you want, and many people. What they need is more energy, more performance, more recovery. They want to build muscle. What you want is foods that you enjoy, a lifestyle right To be able to go out to eat, to be able to not say no all the time. So when you combine these together for most people that generally means moderate to higher carbs and you can absolutely get all the amazing body composition results you want. Doing that. We talk about it all the time.

Philip Pape: 3:00

So I'm not here to demonize low carb. I want to look at it through the lens of evidence and engineering to find a balanced, sustainable approach for you. So you understand what you're getting into. And before we get into all of that, if you just want the guide to learn exactly how to set up your macros and your calories and everything else, I do have a guide that is super popular. It's on flexible dieting and you can use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free, I think. On that page. It's called Nutrition 101 for Body Composition, but it's the same idea. It will help you implement the principles we discussed today in a very practical, step-by-step way for you and just go download that using the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 3:39

So let's talk about this. I'll call it hidden connection between your carb intake, your stress and your metabolism. And it helps to understand what happens in your body when you significantly restrict carbohydrates, because at its core, your body receives or perceives severe carb restriction as a form of stress. The fact that you don't quote unquote need carbs to survive is a red herring, right, because we're not trying to just survive, we're trying to thrive. We're trying to have all the things that we want to achieve our goals and live a great life.

Philip Pape: 4:13

And research has consistently shown that low carbohydrate diets increase cortisol. What is cortisol? It's effectively the stress hormone, and a study published in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism found that, when compared to a moderate carb diet, low-carb approaches led to significantly higher cortisol concentrations over an eight-week intervention period. And cortisol is what allows you to respond to threats. So when your carbohydrate intake drops too low, or it's intentionally low, your body faces a few challenges. First of all, glucose availability for your brain and muscles goes down. Secondly, your body has to find alternative fuel. And thirdly, this then requires substantial adaptation in your metabolism, and all of these trigger a stress response. There is research that shows cortisol levels consistently increase on a keto diet, and keto is essentially an extreme form of carb restriction, and the reason this matters is because chronically elevated cortisol is linked to a ton of negative effects.

Philip Pape: 5:15

I know we've talked about stress often on this podcast, but it can't be understated how impactful stress is to your metabolism and, conversely, to metabolic dysfunction. When it's high and low-carb, folks are going to say that, hey, you know, this is going to be temporary. Right, this cortisol increase is temporary. It's part of adaptation and there's always some truth to that when there's ever any change to your lifestyle. But for many people, especially when you have other forms of stress, which is pretty much everybody, every human being who has work, family, even your training, is stress. This is just additional hormonal strain on top of that stack of stress. That is going to become problematic when you sustain it right, when you sustain it, and this is regardless of weight loss. Okay, so we're not even talking about just when you're in a calorie deficit. We're talking about when you're not in a calorie deficit and you're restricting carbs. It is going to increase your cortisol levels compared to a moderate fat or moderate carb diet, right? So, in other words, the cortisol response is not about the weight loss. It's specifically related to the carb restriction. And that's what brings me to an important point. It's specifically related to the carb restriction, and that's what brings me to an important point.

Philip Pape: 6:26

Your body does not distinguish between different types of stress. Yes, there's all the chronic perceived stress in our life, like your deadline at work. There's the hormetic or acute stressor, like your intense training session. There's stress from doing too much cardio some of us have right and then there's stress when you're dieting. But when you're not dieting, there's also stress from severe carb restriction, regardless. And guess what? It all triggers the same hormonal cascade your cortisol levels remain chronically elevated, and then this affects your metabolic rate, which is the next piece of the puzzle, okay, so that's why this is important.

Philip Pape: 7:04

We've established that low-carb diets increase cortisol. Okay, even is the next piece of the puzzle. Okay, so why? That's why this is important. We've established that low carb diets increased cortisol. Okay, even in the absence of a calorie deficit.

Philip Pape: 7:09

So where things get interesting here is that your metabolism, which is made up of multiple components, one of which is just your BMR, your basal metabolic rate, which is like two thirds of your daily calorie burn. It's the foundation of your metabolism. If your cortisol is sustained and it's high, right? If, if, what am I trying to say? If you have sustained high cortisol, it is going to suppress your thyroid stimulating hormone, that's your TSH, the production of your TSH, and that then impacts the thyroid hormones that regulate your metabolism. So your thyroid gland right, which is in your neck it's like that butterfly shaped gland. It produces hormones that control how quickly your body burns calories. So it's like a thermoregulator, some people call it, and when cortisol interferes with that, then your metabolic rate is going to slow down. It's all a cascade, right, and so we don't know the exact impact.

Philip Pape: 8:01

But for someone with, like, a resting rate of, let's say, 1200 to 1500 calories, if you had a 20% suppression, then that would be like up to 300 fewer calories a day and that's almost like 30 pounds of weight gain every year or lack of weight loss. You know what I mean Like just to give you the numbers. A few hundred calories a day can make a big difference to many of us, especially smaller people, women, petite women like, whose rates are fairly low. Now it just makes it lower, it makes it even harder.

Philip Pape: 8:31

Also, this isn't just about cortisol, because when you cut carbs, a few other things happen to your metabolism. The first thing is that your body becomes more efficient at conserving energy, and adaptation that's effectively designed to keep you alive during food scarcity and the lack of carbohydrates can give your body the feeling that it doesn't have enough nutrients or enough food or enough energy, even when you're not in a calorie deficit. Again, I'm trying to hammer home the point that this is above and beyond and independent of dieting itself. This is the low carb aspect of it in and of itself. The second thing is that having low carbs means you're going to deplete your glycogen very quickly. That could also result in water loss and, you know, give you the phantom appearance that you've lost weight because it's glycogen, it's water weight, and then it masks what's actually happening, creating the illusion of progress when your metabolism might actually be slowing. And so this is a big problem when you go from higher carbs to lower carbs very quickly. Sometimes that actually happens on purpose when you go into fat loss phase, but when you understand that that happens, it's fine.

Philip Pape: 9:39

The problem is that the glycogen depletion also affects your workouts, your performance, your energy, all of that. That's a different issue, but it still adds to the stress. So if you don't have to be on lower carbs even when you're dieting, it can be helpful. This is why I sometimes ask people to trade off some protein and carbs, depending on the energy that they need. The third thing here is that when you have long-term carb restriction, the research has shown that this can reduce your T3 thyroid hormone, and that is yet another, let's say, dampener on your metabolic rate, affecting everything. It affects everything. It affects your stress response, your mood, your digestion, your immune system, your libido, of course, your metabolism and then your energy levels. It's all connected, right, and then we've talked about this on other podcasts, so it wasn't really part of today's episode.

Philip Pape: 10:30

But just remember that muscle breakdown, also called catabolism, right, when you have more cortisol, it's going to increase the breakdown. It's like your body's way of trying to grab energy wherever it can. And since muscle tissue is metabolically active, of course, and you lose it, it's not good. It's not good when you lose muscle, which is going to just further reduce your calorie burn as well. So when you combine all these changes from low carb, just losing weight, losing fat is going to be progressively harder over time, simply because you were on lower carbs, and that's why a lot of people get initial success with these diets and then they hit these huge plateaus.

Philip Pape: 11:08

I used to think it was just because, oh, you're losing water weight fast, so you think you're in the right deficit. Then that slows down. You're no longer in the deficit. You feel like you're in a plateau. Really, you just need to lower the calories. No, it's actually a lot worse than that. It's a lot worse than that. There are actually compounding effects above and beyond that related to the cortisol-carbohydrate connection. So you know, those are the issues.

Philip Pape: 11:30

When you have carb restriction and a lot of people listening to the show or maybe this is the first episode you've ever heard you're like well, what else do I do? I've heard that cutting carbs. You know carbs make you fat. Right, that's a myth. We know that's a myth. At this point, energy balance is what caused you to get fat or lose weight. It has nothing to do with carbs, just has to do with calories. But we know people have been conditioned to think that carbs are bad in some way.

Philip Pape: 11:54

The answer is that there is no one size fits all answer that your individual and ideal carb intake is going to depend on a lot of factors. If you are sedentary, you don't need nearly as many carbs as if you're active. Of course, if you're listening to this show, strength training is non-negotiable, and strength training requires a lot of carbs to really make the most of it. Walking is something you should be doing as well, and so you should be active. Right, and you're trying to support your metabolic health. You're trying to maintain your stress levels. You're also trying to eat food you enjoy, so that it's sustainable Food that's satiating, like high-fiber foods. Well, what are high-fiber foods? Well, a lot of carbs. Vegetables, fruits, grains contain fiber. Right, also, just having a delicious, energy-promoting meal that's balanced between fats, carbs and protein. You're still going to have carbs, so there really is little to no benefit in cutting carbs for the vast majority of people when you're not dieting.

Philip Pape: 12:49

Now, when you are dieting meaning you're in a calorie deficit the calories are going to come down. You're going to keep the protein high, you're going to keep the fats moderate and you may end up with fairly low carbs. This is why you don't want to diet at too fast of a rate If your metabolism is fairly low to begin with and you have unrealistic expectations, and so you go in an aggressive rate of loss. Your carbs are going to come way down and you're going to start to see some of these independent low-carb or carb restriction-caused issues. And that's the message of today's podcast. That is why I wanted to make this, so that you understand that restricting your carbs has its own detriments, above and beyond detriments from other things, and it can exacerbate your metabolic decline.

Philip Pape: 13:32

So, if you're listening, even if you're a client, if you're in our physique university we've talked about this many times and you're in a fat loss phase, think about the rate of loss, like how many calories do you actually have to play with, because just being super low calories like 1,200, 1,100, 1,000, could be where the problem is and also think about how many carbs you have in there and when you're eating them. Are you eating them around your workout? Little fixes like adding 20 grams of carbs and taking it from protein, or even some from fat, could be exactly what you need to avoid some of these issues, and we also have studies showing, I'll say, the other side of the same coin, in other words, what happens when you increase your carbs. Well, again as part of a healthy whole food diet, right Dietary pattern. I don't mean processed carbs like pizza, donuts, muffins. Those aren't carbs right. Those are processed carbohydrates, fats and sugars. That's not carbs right. Carbs would be an apple or a whole grain piece of bread is a carb.

Philip Pape: 14:30

Studies show that increasing those carbs may reduce circulating cortisol and then dampen the associated psychological stress-related responsiveness. Psychological stress-related responsiveness Do you know what I just said? So your cortisol becomes more sensitive to your psychological stress when you have more of it circulating in your blood and that happens when you have less carbs. But if you increase your carbs you actually reduce the cortisol and that can have a big impact on your fat loss and how you feel. So for most active individuals, if you're training, if you're walking, moderate intake, which usually amounts to about I don't know 30 to 40% of your calories I don't think in terms of percent calories I like to anchor my protein, anchor my fats and then the rest is carbs, which usually provides a nice balanced approach, gives you plenty of glucose to support your thyroid function, to obviously support your training too. It keeps cortisol in check and then allows for fat loss when in calorie deficit because you're keeping it moderate.

Philip Pape: 15:29

Now, carb timing can make a difference. I mentioned this a couple of times. But if you place most of your carbs around your workouts, also in the evening before bed not like right before bed, but in the evening, like with dinner those are two times that are going to help you with your performance, with your recovery and even your sleep quality. You with your performance, with your recovery and even your sleep quality. Right, there is research that adding some you know nutritious carbs at night can help you with your sleep quality and manage cortisol levels. And I had a client who was like right on the verge of feeling kind of wiped out with their workouts and all we did is we just swapped a little protein for carbs. We're talking like 10, 15 grams. It was not much at all, but it was enough. It was enough.

Philip Pape: 16:06

And you don't know until you experiment with it. Track the data, compare the before and after, compare your biofeedback, like your energy, your workout performance, like how many reps did you get? How did you feel? Did you feel recovered? Did you get sore? Look at your sleep quality, your HRV, things like that, your just general feeling of like chronic stress, your food cravings yeah, we forgot to mention that, but food cravings and hunger signals are all impacted by this as well.

Philip Pape: 16:32

And then, of course, you know are you making progress? Are you able to make the progress you want? Right, and it doesn't mean, hey, you have to start cramming your mouth with tons of carbs and eat pasta and bread and eat like a bodybuilder diet with like 600 grams of carbs. Right, you still care about, okay, the quality of it and the quality of it being reasonable. Minimally processed foods are always a good start to add in, like fruits, potatoes, rice, oats. They provide energy, fiber, micronutrients, sometimes hydration. So all these just support your health in so many ways. Right, we're not trying to swing into eating all processed foods that some people call quote unquote carbs that are not, but really a nice, balanced, whole foods based, nutritious approach. I don't see how anybody can find that unreasonable, but you'd be amazed, or maybe you wouldn't. You see it on the Instagram all the time People demonizing fruits and carbs of any kind, talk about how carbs make you fat All the myths that still persist today.

Philip Pape: 17:23

Now, if you want to put this into practice, I'm going to give you some strategies. Okay, first, if you've been on a very low carb diet for a long time. We're talking about like 50 grams a day or less then I want you to honestly assess your biofeedback right your fatigue, your mood, your sleep, all of that and then gradually titrate up your carbs and see how it changes. Don't do anything else and keep your calories the same too. So that's the key here is like keep the calories the same, but increase your carbs. Take it away from fats first and then protein. I mean it's kind of weird. Like a lot of people with a low carb diet also don't even have great protein, they end up having a lot of fat, right. That's what I see. That's like the keto diet. So you may have a lot of room to bring the fat down. Replace it with carbs. And the key word here is gradual, because here's the other thing I get right.

Philip Pape: 18:10

People are like oh, I added in carbs and I had bloat and I had like digestive issues and I had this and that. Well, yeah, because you're massively changing not only your patterns and your habits from your body's perspective, but you're introducing like you're flooding it with things that it's just not used to. Same thing with your gut right and the gut bacteria, the gut health, all of that. So don't blame the carbs, blame the method to reintroduction. Your body needs time to readapt. So I would add like 25 grams of carbs tomorrow, right, for the next week, and just leave it there and then add another 25 grams a day the next day, like however many grams, to get you to your your goal, because this is also going to prevent, like blood sugar spikes that you're not used to, especially if you're not eating balanced meals. If you are, it's not as much of a concern. It gives you a metabolism some time to adjust. It lets you see what's really working. So that's the first strategy is just like this gradual reintroduction.

Philip Pape: 19:04

The second thing is pay attention to the timing. We mentioned it before, but I just want to be very specific, right? Having some carbs in the evening can help reduce cortisol, and eating carbs around your workout is going to match your activity level, your training days or your training, especially for those intense sessions. You're going to notice a difference. Most likely. I don't recommend anybody train fasted unless you know for a fact that you perform more optimally, which is very, very rare, right, and it's going to help with your stress as well. Um, on rest days, yeah, you, could you reduce carbs, lie and do some slightly and do carb cycling. Maybe. I generally recommend most people just keep it consistent day to day and then um see if it to change, to deviate from that, but just start there, all right.

Philip Pape: 19:47

The fourth strategy here is really, um, I'll call it periodic carb cycling. I'm not talking, this is so. This is different than daily carb cycling. This is, uh, over time, right, so like over as little as like a week, um, but it could be multiple weeks where you follow, like, a higher carb approach and then a lower carb approach and see if you notice a difference. And I only like that so that you can both play around with what refeeds feel like, like how, when you flood your system with carbs, what it does for you, but then also see the difference when you do restrict carbs and build that sensitivity. This is more of an experimental thing to see, like prove to yourself that there's a certain optimal level of carbs for you.

Philip Pape: 20:35

The fifth strategy here is to be aware of all the other things stressing you out, because if you're under lots of, like perceived or psychological stress, if you're not sleeping well, if you're over-training, over-exercising, this is going to sound weird. But rather than me tell you to eliminate all that, because I know it's difficult. It's a process, right, you might just need more carbs to offset it, to mitigate your stress load. Sounds strange, I know, but all of this stress is cumulative when it comes to your cortisol. So, at the very very least, not restricting carbs when you have all those stressors is a good start. But even Flooding your body with more may be the way to go.

Philip Pape: 21:12

And the reason I included this in here is a lot of my clients come to me like they're just stressed, they're under eating, they're not training right, and we want to get them doing all these things. But one of the first things I have them do is start tracking their food and try to eat more carbs that's usually what happens or more protein as well. You know cause I'll have, I'll have female clients. I can't eat that many carbs. I can't eat a hundred grams of carbs, or I can't eat 200, whatever it is. And I'm like it's okay, we're going to titrate up right? Here's some ideas, here's some lists let's start incorporating. And a lot of times they're like oh my gosh, like I feel so energized. I feel like I can do so much. I feel like I've got a new lease on life. You know I'm not. I'm not gaining weight, but I'm feeling better, I'm able to push more in the gym. It starts to Like offload some of the stress for them and and that's why we know that there's this hormonal connection with carbs, right?

Philip Pape: 22:04

The last thing is you want to track all the things you care about when comparing lower to higher carbs. So energy levels, sleep quality, workout performance, well-being, mental health, it doesn't matter, you pick it, pick what those are. I have a set of markers that I use with clients, but you may want to track whatever makes sense for you Hunger signals, et cetera. The goal is to find that sweet spot, right? You don't have to eat lots and lots of carbs, but generally a low or very low carb approach is not going to work for most people. Whether you're a man, a woman over 40, under 40, it doesn't matter. Don't tell me hey, I'm a woman over 40 and peri-postmenopause, so I've been told I need to eat low carbs. No, usually it's the opposite. Usually you're not eating enough carbs to support optimal hormone function, metabolism. You're impeding your fat loss progress. Eat those carbs, all right.

Philip Pape: 22:58

So the neat thing about all of this is the body is complex, so these relationships tend to be bi-directional. You know like the cortisol levels reflect how your metabolism is varying, right, independent of psychological stress. And we know that baseline concentrations of plasma cortisol actually vary with your metabolic rate based on your mass, like based on your body mass. So what this means is that cortisol is not just influencing your metabolism, it is a component of your metabolic process. It actually regulates the energy production and utilization in your body, very much like thyroid. Right, it's bidirectional and that means it suggests that optimizing metabolic health is not about your macros or calories. It's about creating the best lower stress hormonal environment to support efficient energy flux, energy production using the energy, using the nutrients.

Philip Pape: 23:50

And so when you maintain the right carb intake, you are you're not just doing all the superficial things, you know, fueling your workout, satisfying your cravings, blah, blah, blah You're supporting the hormonal cascade that keeps your metabolism humming. And then you know acute stress. Yeah, that can suppress appetite in the short term, but chronic stress can increase your consumption of highly palatable foods, especially carb-rich palatable foods. Interestingly, you know, carb-rich, fat-rich, sugar-rich, and that can increase your visceral adiposity, which is your belly fat, cause weight gain, all the things. And that also explains why extremely restrictive diets usually lead to rebound, overeating and then weight regain Another reason we don't want to restrict carbs.

Philip Pape: 24:34

So if you can find that sweet spot of your carbs, then you're kind of optimizing this whole ecosystem in your body that determines your body composition and your energy, your longevity, your health, all of it. So carbs are not good or bad. They have a role in your body's hormones. It's hormonal milieu symphony, whatever you want to call it, and it's a really different way of thinking about them. They're a tool, and learn to use the tool. For you.

Philip Pape: 25:01

The goal is not to swing from one extreme to another here. I don't want to demonize carbs and I don't want to consume them indiscriminately. I'm definitely not going to demonize them, if you know me right, but I also don't want to think well, just, you have to eat like all these carbs. There's a thoughtful, individualized approach. I know a few folks who've been lifting a long time and they know the value of carbs and they also can't take a lot of carbs. And and they know the value of carbs and they also can't take a lot of carbs, and they've tracked it and they've compared it and they've done all the things we've talked about and they've arrived at the fact that, yeah, you know what? I'm actually better on higher protein and moderate carbs. Somebody else is better on normal protein and super high carbs.

Philip Pape: 25:37

The fitness industry loves to sell simple, black and white solutions. Carbs are evil, fat makes you fat. All that, Just throw it away. Unfollow. Listen to this show. Reach out and understand that there is nuance to all of this your diet, your hormones, metabolism and that helps you make the informed choices that get you the results you want. All right.

Philip Pape: 25:56

So again, if you found value in today's episode, if you want to learn how to settle this up just very simply your macros, your calories, your timing, your carbs download my free flexible dieting guide. Use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom. Slash free Again. It might be called Nutrition 101 on that page, but the flexible dieting guide is gonna help you implement the principles we discussed today Very step-by-step, simple, personalized to you, to support your metabolism, help you achieve your physique goals without all of this restriction or all of this stress. All right, until next time. Keep using your wits, lifting those weights and remember that strategic carb intake can help keep your stress in check and your metabolism firing on all cylinders. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Can You Lose Fat Without Tracking Macros? (Christina McClurken) | Ep 310

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Is macro tracking hiding the real reason you're stuck? What if ditching calorie counting helped you lose more fat, without the burnout?

I’m joined by Christina McClurken (aka Your Healthy Bestie), a former physical therapist turned functional nutritionist. She shares her system that helps burned-out dieters lose fat without logging every gram. You’ll learn why traditional tracking might be the wrong solution, how to reconnect with your body’s hunger signals, and what six metabolic pillars can completely change your approach to fat loss.

Christina McClurken is a functional nutritionist specializing in women's metabolic health. Creator of the Metabolic Revival Method, she focuses on helping women break free from diet culture using six foundational pillars. Her no-number tracking system helps clients reduce stress while still making sustainable progress toward fat loss.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

05:21 - Christina’s six pillars of metabolism
06:46 - How to track food without numbers
09:42 - Daily weighing as a learning tool
12:38 - Using plate structure for portion control
17:29 - When is someone ready for fat loss?
20:59 - How blood sugar affects hunger and cravings
24:37 - Movement, muscle, and blood sugar balance
27:58 - The role of indulgent foods in weight loss
29:03 - Dealing with metabolic adaptation
37:46 - The truth about stress and nervous system regulation
44:48 - Gut health as a vital part of fat loss
54:36 - The #1 habit for fat loss success
58:55 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: yourhealthybestie.com

• Instagram: @its_christina_mcclurken 

• Youtube: @your-healthy-bestie

How to Lose Fat Without Tracking Every Calorie or Macro

If you're burnt out from food logging and app-based nutrition tracking, you're not alone—and you might not need to be doing it at all.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, I sat down with Christina McClurken, a fellow evidence-based coach who challenges the belief that you must track every gram of food to lose fat. She works with women, especially those coming from a background of chronic dieting, to lose weight sustainably without calorie counting. So naturally, we dug into how this works, why it works, and who it's actually for.

Whether you’re ready to ditch your macro app or just want to understand your body better before your next fat loss phase, this conversation delivers a surprisingly effective alternative.

You Can Still Track—Just Not How You Think

Let’s clear this up right away: Christina’s approach still involves tracking—but without using numbers. That means no calorie goals, no macro targets, no green checkmarks or red warnings in an app. Instead, she uses a hand-written tracker built around qualitative feedback:

• How full and satisfied you felt after the meal

• What your energy and focus were like

• If there were digestive issues like bloating or gas

• Your emotional state when you ate (and why you were eating)

This style of tracking forces you to pay attention to how your body is responding to food—not just what the data says. Over time, it builds awareness and self-trust, which is something a lot of chronic dieters have lost.

The Six Pillars of a Healthy Metabolism

Tracking macros is a tool—not a lifestyle. Christina’s method is built around six metabolic health pillars, not just food:

1. Nutrition (with an emphasis on quality, protein, and fiber)

2. Movement (daily steps and strength training)

3. Sleep

4. Stress management

5. Gut health

6. Mindset

If even one of these is ignored, fat loss becomes unnecessarily difficult. Think of these like a structure: if a pillar is cracked or missing, the whole system becomes unstable. In fact, Christina often starts with improving sleep, hunger cues, and energy before allowing a client to enter a fat loss phase.

How You Can Know You’re in a Fat Loss Phase (Without Tracking Macros)

You don’t need to count macros to be in a deficit. You just need evidence that your body is in a deficit—such as:

• The scale trending down (using weekly averages or month-to-month comparisons)

• Circumference measurements dropping

• Hunger around 80% fullness—not stuffed, not starving

• Cravings are low and energy is stable

She uses a simple plating method to create meals that balance blood sugar and support muscle: 30g of protein, 2–3 cups of produce, and adjustable fats and carbs. To lose fat, she just slightly reduces those carbs and fats—maybe half a cup of rice becomes a third, or a full avocado becomes a quarter.

This small shift lowers total intake without requiring obsessive control.

What About When Fat Loss Stalls?

Metabolic adaptation is normal. Christina helps her clients push through this with:

• Maintenance breaks: Strategic periods where clients increase food intake slightly to maintain their weight and restore energy. Often used around holidays, vacations, or after long stretches of dieting.

• Reverse dieting (what she calls “stabilization”): Slowly increasing calories back up to a true maintenance level without triggering fat regain.

• Biofeedback-first approach: She won’t initiate fat loss unless someone’s sleep, stress, hunger, energy, and digestion are in check.

That last point is huge—many people try to lose fat when they’re not even physiologically or mentally ready.

What Gets Measured Still Gets Managed

Yes, she tracks. But it's less about “hitting your numbers” and more about:

• Understanding your triggers for eating (stress, fatigue, schedule)

• Noticing when you’re satisfied instead of full

• Seeing the downstream effects of sleep and stress on your hunger, energy, and cravings

This is about learning to eat like a normal human again. And that is the goal. You’re not meant to live your life glued to MyFitnessPal. Whether or not you ever go back to tracking macros, it’s the skills you build along the way that keep results sustainable.

So… Should You Stop Tracking?

That depends.

If you’ve never tracked macros, you’ll probably learn a lot by doing it for a while. But if you’ve been at it for years and are burned out, it may be time to rebuild your food awareness from the ground up.

If you’re struggling to follow the plan you know works—or to keep results once you’ve achieved them—it could be because you're treating nutrition as a math problem instead of a human behavior challenge.

As Christina said on the episode, this isn’t “anti-tracking”—it’s just tracking in a way that meets people where they are, with less stress and more success.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been tracking your food and logging every gram of protein, carb and fat that crosses your lips, but still struggle to see results, or, worse, you're exhausted by the constant measuring and tracking, this episode is for you. My guest today has discovered that for many people, especially those caught in chronic dieting cycles, tracking macros might be masking deeper metabolic issues that no amount of precision measuring can solve. Christina McClurkin, known as your Healthy Bestie, joins me to discuss a surprisingly simple approach that's helped her clients lose stubborn fat without the mental burden of tracking macros. Whether you're burned out from tracking or simply curious about alternative approaches, this conversation will challenge you to rethink what's truly necessary for lasting fat loss results.

Philip Pape: 0:56

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're discussing an approach to fat loss that doesn't rely on tracking every calorie or macro, something many of us in the evidence-based fitness world, myself included, might find surprising. You might think why am I talking about this on the show when I'm such a data nerd? Yet increasingly, it is relevant if we are honest with ourselves about the real underlying principles, about personalizing the experience to the individual and what it truly takes for. Recently, it is relevant if we are honest with ourselves about the real underlying principles, about personalizing the experience to the individual and what it truly takes for fat loss. So my guest today is Christina McClurkin known as your healthy bestie, that's me.

Christina McClurken: 1:35

yeah, that's you all right, I love it.

Philip Pape: 1:38

And Christina began her career as a physical therapist, specializing in geriatrics, and that gave her definitely a unique perspective on the long-term consequences of neglecting health, which many of us have probably seen with individuals in our lives as they get older. And she wanted to break free from those patterns of diet culture that she developed growing up in the 80s hey, we're from the same generation, that we are. And then she immersed herself in the science of metabolism. She developed a balanced eating blueprint the balanced eating blueprint and that's her program focused on the six pillars of sustainable weight loss, without constant measuring or tracking. So today you're going to learn how understanding blood sugar can reduce cravings and promote energy. What's missing in your fat loss journey tips you can implement today if you're looking for that more intuitive approach to nutrition that still delivers results. Christina, welcome to the show.

Christina McClurken: 2:32

Hi, philip, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Philip Pape: 2:36

And so let me just start with this right the research. The research seems to show that tracking calories and macros improves your outcomes and maintaining your results. If so, why would anyone not want to track?

Christina McClurken: 2:48

Oh, my goodness, wow, do we have a whole hour for this? Yeah, I think there's. First of all, there's research to support just about anything and everything. Right, whether you or I agree with it or not, I think that that is something that we can agree on, right, that there's lots of research.

Christina McClurken: 3:04

I am a big scientific nerd myself and I am all about N of one, meaning you need to be an experiment of your own one person, because whatever the research says, it may work for you and it may not.

Christina McClurken: 3:17

So I gosh I can't remember whose quote it was I heard, but it was said just let research refine your approach, but not define your approach, because we can kind of lose ourselves in the weeds if we're constantly following the research, because you could be jumping ship every two days on a new weight loss approach.

Christina McClurken: 3:32

So, you know, I find, as like you said, a female especially who grew up in the eighties and I always like to say diet culture is basically part of our DNA, right, when we grow up, then it's just kind of built into the hard wiring.

Christina McClurken: 3:45

There is a part of our DNA, right, when we grow up, then it's just kind of built into the hardwiring. There is a lot of negative connotation and stress and emotional weight no pun intended that comes along with constantly looking at your food as in a calorie or a macro or a point or a container or whatever way you want to look at it. So while it may be helpful for some to know numbers and to do that, it may not be helpful for some, and that is part of what I found for myself for a period of time in my life and for a lot of women that I coach. And I say a period of time in my life because, now that I've healed my relationship with food, I'm okay counting numbers if I need to for periods of time. But I think we have to honor each individual and where they're coming from in their journey. And, as you and I both know, stress is a big impediment to weight loss. So if stress comes from numbers, we have to find a way to work around that too.

Philip Pape: 4:37

Yeah, beautifully said and, honestly, I agree with everything you're saying and we're not going to be arguing today, trust me. Yeah, some we're not going to be arguing today, trust me, yeah, it's. Some of this is around the language and also where people are starting from and what we mean by these different things. So you said N equals one, and when we say evidence-based, I think a lot of people go to scientific studies and from you and I are experienced. Evidence is you, the person, as well as the anecdotes, as well as the coaching experience. So, when we talk about tracking, there's different types of tracking, right, and I definitely want to single out calorie macro tracking, but then I also want to understand okay, so how do you help people build awareness or get over the issue that they're struggling with with some form of measurement, tracking, awareness, whatever you want to call it, because that's ultimately, I think, the principle that we're probably going for.

Christina McClurken: 5:23

Yeah, yeah, I absolutely have my clients track and I think that's ultimately, I think, the principle that we're probably going for. Yeah, yeah, I absolutely have my clients track and I think that's a big misconception. It's not that we're not tracking, but we just are not tracking numbers in that stretch of the imagination for the most part. So the way I believe my program, which formerly was called the Balanced Eating Blueprint, is now called the Metabolic Revival Method, and I did change it because it really is. You know, I think when you make put the word eating in a program, it's great.

Christina McClurken: 5:46

But nutrition is one of my six pillars, which you know. As we know, the metabolism is a holistic thing, and so I coach on what I call my six pillars of a healthy metabolism, and that is nutrition, yes, but movement, sleep, stress, gut health and mindset. Because they are pillars, they do not. I don don't call them silos because they do not exist separately, like they are pillars. And if we are, you know ourselves are a building being held up by all six. They all need to be strong, right and never in order to have a real high functioning metabolism.

Christina McClurken: 6:13

But when it comes to the nutrition pillar and we talk about food I do have my clients track, but we're like old school, literally hand tracking, and I say that because you absolutely have to bring awareness to what you're eating, right, what gets measured, gets managed and if what, I would say what we think we're doing, what we're actually doing are two different things until you go write it down. So I do have my clients track and that is our data really for a lot of things, including not just are we able to lose weight, but are we properly balancing our macronutrients, how is our energy? Are we responding well to our food? So you know, when I have my clients track, we're not just looking at the calories and the macro breakdown, we're looking at Did it keep you full and satisfied? Right Cause, that's not just about the macro composition. Did you enjoy the meal? Were you gassy, bloated, brain foggy?

Philip Pape: 7:11

after, or did you feel fueled and energized and have mental clarity, so really actually getting in touch with not only the food you're eating but how your body is uniquely responding to those things? This is great.

Christina McClurken: 7:15

So you have them track with side-by-side with each meal, those factors, right, if I've created my own tracker unique that I use inside my program, and it's not only those factors, but also I let meal timing right.

Christina McClurken: 7:25

So I want to know when you ate. I want to know why you ate, whether that was actual hunger or sometimes obviously we eat out of, not out of hunger, right, this world would not have a problem if we only ate when we were hungry. But you know what, sometimes we eat for schedule, right. Sometimes it's we had breakfast at eight and we're not really hungry at 11, but we've got a meeting midday and we won't have a chance to eat till three. So sometimes we actually should eat for a scheduling purpose, right. So we're looking at all of that sort of stuff. So I track what they're having when they're having a time of day for meal timing, the mood they're in when they're having it right, because we shouldn't eat in a stressed state and then, yes, how they feel after, whether they feel full, satisfied, energized, mental clarity or bloated, gassy, brain, foggy, tired, need a nap, that kind of stuff.

Philip Pape: 8:08

And how would you compare that to? So, when people think of tracking and you mentioned how it's stressful, it's overwhelming or it's obsessive or whatever the word is where most people think of an app a food tracking app, a food logging app right, and I agree that many of those apps are just terribly designed as well, and they're also they're good at shaming you when you don't hit targets and things like that. How much of that is part of the problem versus if you know. If your hand tracking was an app, would that be like the best a good food tracking app, yeah, yeah.

Christina McClurken: 8:38

I think one of the challenges that I find with apps like MyFitnessPal, I use chronometer with my clients who are tracking so we can see nutrient density and everything. But I think part of the problem is is that as soon as we throw an number, even if you tell someone not to look at the numbers, and soon as we throw numbers in there, a lot of people have these again, especially if you've come from I work with a lot of women right of my age group so who come from diet culture. They see a number of grams of carbs that must be too much, right, there's automatically this I feel like dieting has rid women in particular of their self-trust and they can't feel like they can't trust their body to know. None of my clients, when they come in, are barely ever in touch with their hunger cues. Right, it's externally driven like well, this is an appropriate number or portion or size. But if you took two people and ask them that like right, it's completely different depending on what preconceived notions they come in with.

Christina McClurken: 9:33

So I just find that sometimes, sometimes the visible numbers are helpful for people and I'm all about using when they are oftentimes in the initial stages, when women have been tracking by calories or macros or something for a long time. They're so swayed by those that it's hard to get in touch with their own hunger cues, satiety cues, relationship with food issues. So I find that removing those numbers for a period of time can be helpful to actually get them back into touch. Like why am I eating? Am I actually hungry for this? Am I trying to hit a number Right? Those sorts of things.

Philip Pape: 10:07

That makes a lot of sense, because these things can be a distraction, right? They're like this short-term metric that, honestly, is meaningless in the moment until it's taken in context and connected to something else. And I wonder so, how do you feel about the scale? Because that's another controversial area where one of my struggles with clients is. You know, we want to have data over time, but I also don't want them to even care what's happening day to day because it fluctuates so much. What are your thoughts on that?

Christina McClurken: 10:30

Yeah, so I do and again, very individual with my clients. In general, I do recommend use of the scale on a daily basis and part of the reason is to actually decrease that emotional attachment to it. So, you know, I show them graphs over time and really explain that it we do have to zoom out right. This is this is not day to day that we're looking for. We're looking for week to week averages and even as a female if I have females that are still cycling, we're look. We're not, you know, a male you could compare average week one to two to three to four to five women I'm looking at, you know, period week of month one to period, week of month two. Pms week of month one to two. What are those sways?

Christina McClurken: 11:08

I use it again as data for them to get to know their bodies and this is also how I can teach them that there are different things that affect the scale than just what you ate, because women, when they start doing this, will learn that they could eat the same thing five days in a row and their scale is up and down and they're like what the heck?

Christina McClurken: 11:29

I must need to eat less. I'm like, no, you know, this is natural fluctuations, it can fuck me. This is why we track on our trackers also how much they slept the night before, right, what their water intake is. So it's a learning tool for me to be able to use it with them to explain that okay, you see, the scale went up. I, I must have to eat less. I see you slept three hours the night before, right, you're stressed because you have a deadline at work and your kids are this. So they start to see the correlation between these other factors and the scale and that when they start managing stress, that comes down. So it really does actually help that detach that emotion from it.

Philip Pape: 12:01

Yeah, and I'm going to put you in the same league as Holly Baxter, who I recently interviewed, and she brought up something similar with fiber. Right, how you know the intake of fiber and carbs and things can just massively change your fluid retention and thus your scale weight, but connecting to it is the key that you keep coming back to. This is like the theme. So then, if you're starting to make those connections for your hunger signals and what you eat, when you eat, when you need it, et cetera, where does a target or a goal come in?

Christina McClurken: 12:27

Yeah, well, do you mean in terms of like actual?

Philip Pape: 12:31

nutrition, what you eat, how much you eat, things like that. Like, if you have a fat loss goal, you got it.

Christina McClurken: 12:36

Yeah. So I use a plating system with my clients a visible kind of visual plate, and built into that is ensuring they're getting enough fiber and protein. So each plate should have two to three cups of veggies. Breakfast is a bonus Not everybody does that but at least lunch and dinner 30 plus grams of protein, and then the fats and the carbs are what we toggle. That's what's variable. So I always say protein and produce constant. Other ones are variables and that is where we toggle.

Christina McClurken: 13:03

So this is where a lot of women come in, and you I'm sure you see this a lot. I'm eating healthy but I'm not losing weight. Well, you can be eating healthy and maintenance. I eat. Once you get to your goal weight, I'm sure you're going to be eating healthy and maintaining Right. So when we start tracking they they under.

Christina McClurken: 13:16

I teach them about the plate, the guidelines why I'm a big fan of. If you understand why, like that, fiber helps stretch your stomach, turns off your hunger hormones, keeps you full protein. Same thing turns down your hunger hormones. So they understand why they're creating that plate the way they are and that they have the freedom and flexibility and that not every day needs to look exactly the same. I think it would be strange if we were all the exact same amount of hungry every single day, right? So it gives them that little bit of freedom.

Christina McClurken: 13:41

And then, when I look at their data again, we're going to look at like a seven day period of tracking and once we have your plates balanced and you're eating fiber, protein, fats, carbs and scale staying the same, then I say okay, what we're going to do is we're going to skim down those fats and carbs just a little bit off every meal and, for example, that can look like taking a half a cup of rice down to a third a cup, like a half an avocado down to a quarter of an avocado, and then they can still keep the same flavor profile of their meals.

Christina McClurken: 14:10

Right, it tastes the same because we're going to do little bits off all meals. They don't even really notice a difference. And it's a very easy way to put someone into a calorie deficit without them feeling like they have to remove their favorite foods or, you know, leave things out, or I feel like they have to measure it down to the gram. And it gives them that freedom and flexibility to also just, you know, maybe there's a meal they say I don't really want the carbs here, because I'm going out to dinner, I know I'm going to have actually, you know, quite a bit more. So that's flexible like that.

Philip Pape: 14:36

I hear you. My wife's birthday is next week and I'm in a fat loss phase. So I'm thinking about I already ordered her a cake and we're going out to a nice restaurant. So you know, you got to make that work. So what's cool is that you're getting to the same behaviors through different methods, as the way I'll put it in that, like if somebody was tracking macros, what would change in a fat loss?

Philip Pape: 14:57

Well, the fats and carbs would come down, and if you're not downing with protein and fiber, you're going to get super hungry and you're not going to hold on to muscle. So you're kind of approaching it just from a different angle, which I love. What about the situation where someone the aggressiveness of the fat loss is a factor and kind of the amount somebody is hoping to lose, let's say, um, that's going to affect all of this. So there's a patient's component to this, I imagine. Like I've got 30 pounds to lose, but like you know how hungry do you want them to kind of accept, or are they doing this in a way that they're not accepting too much hunger? Or you know what's your metric for that?

Christina McClurken: 15:32

My metric for that is I tell people when we're in a weight loss phase, like your goal is to lose and again, fat loss phase, because obviously the method I use is based on fat loss, but I think my clientele tends to use the words weight loss more right is based on fat loss, but I think my clientele tends to use the words weight loss more right. But basically I tell them, if we could eat to about 80% fullness, meaning at the end of every meal, you could eat more, but you don't have to right? I think we all know that feeling where it's like, yeah, I'm not stuffed, I could eat, but I don't really have to. And so that's usually the kind of guideline I give people to go by when we're in a maintenance phase. Then we can eat till we're like we're full, right, like that meal, like I don't think I could have anymore. And again, you're not going to do that every meal of the day or you'd probably end up being in a surplus. But that's kind of how I tie into like what is it that feeling? So I don't have to rely on an external number to know I'm in a deficit.

Christina McClurken: 16:20

And then the other thing is is I tell people. That's why we're looking at your weekly average weight. Guess what? If you're learning that feeling of eating to about 80% full and the scale is going down, guess what? You're in a deficit. And you didn't need to look at a number to know you're in a deficit, like we're figuring that out. Or if it's not the scale that's going down, it's your inches, right? Like that's the other thing.

Christina McClurken: 16:47

Program. This is not going to be like you went on up to be a and you dropped 20 pounds in a month, because that would be you know the incorrect way, which is why you gain it back, right. So I always say when you lose three to five pounds in my program, it's going to feel like you, like 15 in a different, because they're losing so many inches, right. So that's kind of a say like when we look at the data, if either the scale's going down or your inches are going down, we know we're in a deficit or a correct fat loss, without having to actually be like you know weighing your chicken breast.

Philip Pape: 17:14

Yeah, and it makes a lot of sense for folks who track or don't track when they've at least mastered these skills you kind of get in tune with. This is the level of hunger or fullness I have, and I know from having just having tuna on some. I actually use some low carb bread. That's one of my processed foods when I'm in fat loss. Uh, I ate that and I'm like I have an apple over here, but I'm gonna save that for my snack later Cause I'm good. You know you just kind of like good, you get used. People are hearing this and I know you want to get them ready, like you need to be ready, including the emotional side and the cravings, and some people are going to take longer than others. What are your criteria to be ready?

Christina McClurken: 17:54

Yeah. So we start, um, you know my program with what I call a priming phase and that is where for me it's all biofeedback based. So if people aren't familiar with that term, you know biofeedback is your hunger. I always say, because I work with women, like, ask yourself how is she feeling? And then it's like she S, s, h? E. So sleep, stress, hunger, energy, and you know hunger goes with cravings, energy also goes along with mood and recovery from your workout. So those are my criteria. I will.

Christina McClurken: 18:25

I will not put somebody into a attempt at fat loss or weight loss until we're sleeping well, right, stress is well managed, hunger is controlled, craving no, no outlandish cravings. Energy is good and if they are active and you know the recovering from their workouts. So really the criteria is that we learn how to balance our plates so they're eating by the meal structure, right, we're hitting protein goals, which again, at least 30 grams at the meals, but that I help everyone individually figure out what is their goal, based on whether they're looking to maintain right, their their weight loss goal, and then if, obviously it's very hard for people to get that in three meals, so then we add in strategic protein snacks, et cetera. So I have to make sure people are hitting their you know, getting enough fiber, getting their protein. They have their balance plates down. We're at a place where they're not feeling restricted, deprived, binging behavior, any of that. They're sleeping well, their energy is good.

Christina McClurken: 19:09

So if all biofeedback is good and they've learned their plate structure, then we can start that's kind of like the foundational and then we can start that kind of skimming process of skimming things down. But I, you know, I always tell women that you have to look at the whole body and the person in which you are trying to approach fat loss. Because if you're mentally ready but your life is a big stress bucket at the moment, right, dieting is a stressor, fat loss is a stressor. So I always tell people that it still might not be the right time. There's plenty of progress to be made in maintenance. So we have to look at not only you know, are your plates in order, but like what's going on in your life at the moment too, to make sure it's the right time.

Philip Pape: 19:48

Yeah, and are you? I assume there's some level of, I'll say, tolerance or flex, depending on it's like a relative improvement for the person right, or you don't want everybody to be a 10 out of 10 on everything?

Christina McClurken: 19:58

No, oh gosh, no, and yeah it. You know, and this is like you know, as a coach, and that's why there's nuance. And then the human coach you're coaching, right? That's why I say N of one, right. So there's some people that are, you know, take a little bit longer right To really kind of understand. There's other people that are just given the surface of balance in their meals and they're ready, you know. So it all kind of depends and, like I said, it depends on the dining history and how long they have. If someone came into my program and has been under eating for, you know, a decade, five years, even one year, or have come off a program like Optivia or something like that, we're going to balance their plates and build them up to like a good maintenance and learn that and stay there for a little bit, right, before we pull the trigger to skim, just like you would with anybody else, because we have to keep in mind, you know, how adapted or maladapted their metabolism is when they come into the program too.

Christina McClurken: 20:47

So that history plays into it, yep.

Philip Pape: 20:49

And again, I'm always asking for a friend on the show because my whole, our whole audience is friends. There might be people new to the show. People have no clue who I am or you are. I'm playing the idiot here as if I don't know any of this stuff, but half of it I might not, because you have your own unique approach. So blood sugar I want to. I want to touch on that because I do love this topic. I think it can get misconstrued and it could get definitely overhyped like fear mongered, but there's I talk about all the time as like a massive game changer, if you do it right. So so talk about what that means blood sugar balancing or using blood sugar as a metric to improve your food.

Christina McClurken: 21:24

Yeah, and I get a lot of with the social media world right now and everyone wearing their CGMs or continuous glucose monitors and stuff. I get a lot of questions do I need one? I'm like no, no, no, because we can tell.

Philip Pape: 21:35

If you wear one of those, it's going to tell you not to eat potatoes, right? Well, so in here, yeah.

Christina McClurken: 21:39

And then you won't. But again, I think the normal person doesn't quite know how to, you know, interpret the data. So you know, I always tell people when let's tie it into symptoms, right, someone comes to you. They're like I'm constantly hungry, I've got a lot of cravings, or I have a 2 PM energy crash, or I'm in the kitchen late at night, right. So when I, when, when we talk about balanced blood sugar versus erratic and imbalanced blood sugar, the erratic and imbalanced blood sugar is creating mood swings, energy dips, like highs and lows, cravings, hunger, so it's, that is your body's interpretation of the highs and lows of a blood sugar. I always tell people think about, like the six flags, like the biggest rollercoaster in the place, right, the highs and the lows, the ups and the downs. That's what we want to avoid. We want to be on the little kiddie roller coaster that has, like you know, it looks like a lazy river kind of thing. Because, when you know, blood sugar rises and dips are natural and when you eat food, right, it's going to change.

Christina McClurken: 22:32

But we want to avoid those high swings and lows because those are typically what's creating the primary complaints of people who are coming in struggling with nutrition and weight loss right. They have hunger they try to. They have cravings, their energy dips, they need the caffeine and the sugar at mid-afternoon. So built into the structure of my plate is keeping your blood sugar balanced right. So when we have our carbohydrates in the presence of protein and fiber right, it mitigates the effect on our blood sugar and that's what helps keep us on that kiddie roller coaster. So I really kind of I'm a big fan of you know give a man a fish he eats once. Teach a man a fish he eats for life, like I really teach women about how their body is working and how the foods they eat and in the way they which they eat them is impacting their blood sugar. I call it really food organization, not elimination.

Philip Pape: 23:19

Yeah, I love that because even how you sequence your foods in a meal can have an effect on those right, and people don't understand that. And it doesn't have to be complicated. It sounds like even just balancing your macros throughout the day could help a lot of folks who are normally jumping protein over here and then carbs over here. Where does walking, movement and even strength training fit into the blood sugar equation?

Christina McClurken: 23:40

Yeah. So movement is the second pillar of my program and that encompasses both exercise and non-exercise movement. And so you know, when it comes from the way our metabolism is broken down, our total daily energy expenditure, you know, 15% of the calories you burn comes from non-exercise movement, 5% from exercise. So the first thing I teach women is that we don't have to be stressed about not working out seven days a week, right, Because the non-exercise movement is more important when it comes to blood sugar. They both have a huge impact, right.

Christina McClurken: 24:08

So the more non-exercise movement we do, particularly timing your walks after meals and such, obviously helps balance your blood sugar, because your muscles are your biggest uptakes of glucose. So you eat a meal, you've got glucose in your blood, If you can put that to use, so go for a walk. Or if you can't go for a walk, do 50 chair squats, go up and down the stairs in your house or walk down the hall at work or whatever. You're going to be utilizing that blood, that sugar from your meal. So it's not going to be free floating in your blood and keeping your blood sugar spiked. When it comes to exercise and, of course, weightlifting is what I recommend that women are doing and everyone really is doing again, your muscles are your biggest stores of your glucose, so you will absolutely have a better blood sugar response and insulin response when you can build more lean muscle tissue and when we're exercising we actually don't need insulin to take that sugar into our blood as well, so it helps with insulin resistance and really our overall insulin sensitivity.

Philip Pape: 25:02

Yeah, I like that. I like to reframe insulin as a huge friend of ours when we lift weights. You know it's a massive friend for shuttling nutrients and stuff. Cool. So when you one other thing you mentioned was um, you know, or maybe you didn't mention this let's talk about processed foods and indulgences. Right, that's a big one, because we're big into flexibility and if people are coming to you struggling with emotional eating and you know they binge on that chocolate or they eat the baked goods or the donuts and the message is like, well, you can probably still eat those, but you know, how do we make this all work?

Christina McClurken: 25:34

Yeah, yeah. Well. So the first thing I always say is my approach is definitely a health first weight loss and health first fat loss. So I always tell women, like food quality matters, right, and not only matters for, as we know, you know, staying full and all that stuff. But it really does matter in terms of we are doing everything we're doing to promote health. I will never assist someone in weight loss. That's going to be detrimental to their health, but food quality does matter because I think this world is over obsessed with macronutrients and nobody's talking about micronutrients and it is the vitamins, the minerals, like all of those things that we need that come from our foods that are giving us that glowing skin and shiny hair and good energy and really essential for every microscopic process and cellular turnover that's going on in your body. So we can't ignore food quality.

Christina McClurken: 26:20

The way I teach women, because it is not. I think that you know when people say 80, 20, right, like that works for some people, some people like 90, 10, some 70, 30, like it's a hard thing to follow. I call and this is exactly how I teach my kids, which is a great thing, because I feel like you know, working with women that have kids. I say we have our empowered choices for food, which those are the whole foods. And then we have our sometimes foods, and that's how I call them sometimes foods, because you know, fruits, veggies, whole grains, protein, lean protein you can eat those at any meal, anytime. But the things like the cake, the cookies, the donuts, the ice cream, those are for sometimes, they're just not all the time food, and so it's a really great way for people to grasp concept. Like, yeah, I can have those sometimes and we're.

Christina McClurken: 27:03

When we're working on weight loss, I always say it's about aligning your actions with your goals, and so sometimes, if a woman has a week where, let's just say, all her meals, yes, are balanced and she's sleeping well and her stress is managed, she's doing her movement, but the scale is not moving. You know, one of the first things we do is we look back and say, well, like, how many days did you include some sometimes foods? Right, because maybe that snack is a little less favorable. Or, you know, end of the day with some wine or some ice cream, and it might be four days. I'm like, okay, well, that might be enough to put you in maintenance right now. So what if next week. We just take that down to like one or two and that's a simple way to track where they don't feel restricted and they just know okay, this is also teaching people to be intentional.

Christina McClurken: 27:38

Think ahead, look at your week. What do you have going on? Yeah, maybe there's a dinner out on Friday and you know that's the day you want your sometimes food. So Monday through Thursday you're just going to keep it pretty clean, right, and then they can see that if the scale goes down the next week, that's how they're learning their threshold of in weight loss mode. How frequently can I, you know, have some of those less than empowered choices? Okay, and then when I'm in maintenance, maybe that can be three days a week and I'm good. So it's a really nice way to help people kind of learn that like, yeah, you have that wiggle room for the fun and that sort of stuff, but we're still looking at again when we're tracking, how it's making you feel like. Did you wake up with a headache the next day? Did you feel like crap? Because then it doesn't become. I've told you you can't have anything, because I will never. I can't, it becomes. I'm choosing not to have that because I now I don't want to feel that way anymore, you know.

Philip Pape: 28:23

You're a beast at the psychology, because this is what it's all about, right, christina, like it really is, and you kind of train yourself. It sounds like if you put in place a lot of what you've talked about already, like fiber, blood sugar balance, enough protein, a lot of those tend to teach people to like those foods more anyway, and you get to. You know, I don't feel great when I go to the restaurant, or I don't feel great when I have too much of this food over here. Uh, sometimes food, so if it's more than sometimes, maybe that's that's the thing.

Christina McClurken: 28:49

Look at the frequency of it Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 28:53

All right. So you've got somebody into fat loss. They've dialed in some of these things. They're not perfect, you know 80%, like, like many of us, um, and metabolic adaptation is going to happen. Right, you're going. This is just inevitable for everybody listening, metabolism is going to decline during fallacy, even if you're doing it at a reasonable glide path. And normally somebody going through that with this history of, say, yo-yo dieting, it'd be this massive uncertainty and black hole of what's going on. And now I feel like I can't lose weight, right. So when you're working with women, they've gotten to this good state they're in fat loss. How do you deal with that?

Christina McClurken: 29:28

Uh, yeah, and again, just kind of on a case by case basis, and, as you know, it all comes with like what their dieting history was, how long they've done it, et cetera. So, uh, it let's just say two different avatars. So, for example, one woman who maybe has 80 pounds to lose, right, and she's been in a fat loss phase, weight loss phase, and she's lost about 45 of it. But you know, we're six months down the road. Uh, we take a break and that's probably one of the hardest things to convince people of, cause I think a lot of people, women, everyone thinks that it's like, from this way to go, wait is, as certainly you know, point A to point B. We're not stopping or taking a detour, but, as you know and this is where I come from educating about how their body works is that that adaptation is happening and that we do need a break for the body and also the mind. And that's the other thing is there's a level of burnout when someone has this more significant amount of weight to lose. Right To be focusing on weight loss for so long. So I tend to do that season, like on a season by season basis, right?

Christina McClurken: 30:25

So I had a lot of women who I actually had them take a maintenance break over the holidays because guess what? Maintenance is a skill. So to learn. I think so many of us come from. We're either in a in a mode of losing weight or we're gaining weight and that we don't know how to just kind of pause and maintain. So I have people, if they have a long time, a lot of weight to lose and we need to take that little break to prevent any sort of too much adaptation, that we take a maintenance break. And just how I taught you is how we analyze, you know, when we're in weight loss versus maintenance, what do they get to do? In maintenance? That can look like different for everybody. If someone likes to include more, sometimes foods, maybe that's what it looks like. If someone just wants to eat a little bit more at every meal, like even like then more nutritious fats and carbs, add those like increase a little bit right, maximize your energy, lift a little bit more right, think all this. There's so many things that can happen and it's a skill to learn how to maintain and not gain right? So we take breaks and then we resume. So I did a lot of that with people over the holidays and we resumed in January and then continued into weight loss mode and now they feel like they built that little bit of trust in themselves Like, wow, I can most people are. I used to gain five pounds over the holiday. Now I actually know how to maintain and then I can go back and lose some more and I'm refreshed for it. So I definitely incorporate breaks If someone has maybe just comes in and they only have, you know, under 20 pounds to lose.

Christina McClurken: 31:41

Oftentimes we don't need to institute that in terms of the adaptation, but sometimes we do for the psychology, like you said, the psychology piece, the mindset piece. Sometimes it can be like I've got a calendar where a month of travel for work and social events and everything and and honestly, like let's just maintain because that's what a month is a really short period of time and you can get right back out after. And sometimes that stress of trying to be focused on weight loss when food is out of your control a little bit more often we're traveling, then we don't need that added stress. So let's focus on movement, let's focus on stress management, let's focus on sleep, mindset, work and then slide back into a weight loss, fat loss mode after. So it can be seasonally, it can be situationally and again, I think it's just all embedded in that is helping women understand that they can start to trust their bodies again, that they're not going to, just like you know, turn on them.

Philip Pape: 32:29

Yeah, that confidence in physique development and or not, it's not just your physique, but you know what I mean your body, being able to control it, and control, not gaining and not just losing is really powerful because, like you said, then you could go after it with a newfound energy. I wonder how? So what about the extreme case where someone has a very over-responsive metabolism right, it drops a lot, like you know you've seen these avatars. It runs the gamut where they would just have to really eat a lot fewer calories to continue with that pace. Do you reassess and say, um, where they would just have to really eat a lot fewer calories to continue with that pace. Do you reassess and say, hey, we're going to slow down the end goal of where you're going to get to, or what Cause, even if you take a break, it's going to resume at that level?

Christina McClurken: 33:09

Yeah, I go really biofeedback based, Like I said the body will not lie to you.

Christina McClurken: 33:13

So I feel like if people, if I do start to notice, like people are telling me I have more cravings this week, or I found myself, like you know, just thinking about that ice cream in my freezer every night, those sorts of things, or gosh my workouts, I just can't, I'm sore all the time, you know. So it really kind of depends on I go by biofeedback, because that really is the language of your metabolism. I always tell you if you can learn how to speak metabolism, which is those sorts of things like, then you can kind of know. So if someone's biofeedback is all good and they're still losing weight, and even if it seems like, well, we probably should take a break. But biofeedback is fine, I don't mess with anything. Right, I don't, I don't mess with anything. It's only when I start to see biofeedback start to suffer, that then we will maybe put the pause on things until everything. Then we build that back up, get biofeedback where we want it and then resume.

Philip Pape: 34:00

Okay, cool. And when somebody takes a break? So here's where, like, our approaches are slightly different in what we track sometimes. But like one thing I like, I definitely like to calculate someone's TDEE based on their food and weight and you'll see situations where when you do take a break, they're not eating enough to fully recover. They're kind of like hovering right under there and partly it's because the skill you've given them kind of allows them to stay in that state without it feeling too bad, but it also kind of slows down that recovery. So how do you help address that? Again, is it biofeedback?

Christina McClurken: 34:30

still, yeah, no, I definitely do kind of exactly the opposite of what we do to lose like skim, fats and carbs, and you don't really notice the difference. I strategically instruct them how to add that in without really noticing like they're going to get over full right. So, oh. So I know you're feeling pretty comfortable with that. You know like half a cup of oats at breakfast and you know I don't know like one tablespoon of dressing at lunch on your salad. Why don't we actually bump that up a little bit? You know a little bit more oats, three quarters a cup, maybe put two tablespoons on. So you're not really noticing it. It's not making you feel that you're not feeling overstuffed, we're not getting digestive distress, but I know in my head that like that's a simple way to add 150, 200 calories a day without peanut butter.

Christina McClurken: 35:11

Yeah, that's what I said. I said give me a drop of peanut butter, I can crush that in like 30 seconds so I get 500 extra calories. But yeah, so that's really how I do it. It's kind of teaching them that same skill without having to look at the number. Like let's just incrementally add a little bit, nourish your body, because when we eat not enough, there's always some system of our body that's having to pull from and we don't want that right. So kind of explaining to them that, like that's again how your body's working. So we need to actually boost that back up. And that's the same method I take with them at the end, when we're kind of you know what everyone else would technically call a reverse diet. I call it like we're just going to fuel you back up. So, yeah, you feel good because your hunger hormones are controlled, but now we're going to slowly and incrementally add back in so that you don't gain.

Philip Pape: 35:50

You don't really notice it, but now we're giving your body more of what it needs Posing that loop again where you said maintenance is a skill and they'll know that, when all is said and done, they'll be able to sustain these results forever. What about? Do you use refeeds or kind of calorie cycling? Again, I know you're not tracking calories, but you said seasonally. So I assume even week to week or intro week, you might have people change their patterns.

Christina McClurken: 36:13

Yeah, yeah. And that again is, you know, I don't tend to. I don't tend to attract people who are I don't want to say attract Most of my clientele is not maybe like lifting so significantly heavy or intensely that they need these refeeds. I'm often working with more of the perimenopausal woman who needs to learn how to scale back on the intensity of the exercise and that sort of stuff. So typically with my clientele we're not really there where we need like refeed. I again am all about the more so, yeah, the mental and the physical break. So if it happens to be, you know, a weekend where there's a couple nights out or a couple nights where you just have more or whatever, like great that your body needed, that you use that, put it to use for a great workout the day after. But it's not so like strategically planned in, it's more self-guided or, like I said, I kind of use that intuition with them.

Philip Pape: 37:06

Which is consistent with it computes, and also the word refeed. All these terms we use are so uh, I don't want to say they're pretentious sometimes, but sometimes they are, like you said, reverse dieting. Um, it's funny.

Christina McClurken: 37:21

Well, I think the only reason I put that in air quotes because I always approach my program where it's not a diet, right, it's a lifestyle. But that's how I explain that is a phase of my metabolic mastery program, which is what I call stabilization, meaning we're now going to stabilize you at this new weight eating more, and it essentially is the reverse diet, which is what most people would term. You know, term it yes.

Philip Pape: 37:38

Yeah, let's talk about sleep and stress. I know you mentioned them earlier. You can lump them together, but also not there's very distinct things about them.

Philip Pape: 37:46

So there's a lot of conventional wisdom or like the same old kind of advice about both. Like for sleep, it's okay, you need a certain amount of hours of sleep, you need to do all these hacks not hacks, but you know change your environment. Ritual, sleep ritual, blah, blah, blah. And then for stress, the talk is always about sleep or stress. Um, coping mechanisms. Uh, is that the way that you frame this, or is there?

Christina McClurken: 38:10

a more targeted, practical approach for people. Yeah, when I talk about stress, I use the term stress Cause that's what you know translates to people. I really mean nervous system regulation. So you know, we, as we know, and I explained to my clients we have two arms of our nervous system sympathetic, parasympathetic, right, sympathetic is that fight or flight which most women are in from the minute they get up to the minute they go to bed. It is go mode until you hit the pillow. And then parasympathetic, that rest and digest which none of us are really accessing during the day. So you know, the way I explain it again is that that is the shift that happens with the female metabolism as we enter perimenopause is we are less stress resilient and more sensitive to stress.

Christina McClurken: 38:45

And when I say stress, it can be in all forms. A lot of people think the perceived stress like I got a deadline at work, my kids are driving me crazy, I'm playing parent Uber, I've got sports games to go to, right. But that's one form of that's perceived stress. But there is circadian stress, which is where sleep comes into the stress mix there are. There is stress from, you know, imbalanced blood sugar. That's inflammatory stress, right, there's. There's stress in our body on that. There's stress from the toxins in the food we eat and the environment we have in our cleaning products and our all of that sort of stuff. So, um, and there's stress from exercising too much, right, there's stress from moving too little. So it really is.

Christina McClurken: 39:20

When I talk about stress, it's about mitigating all forms of stress on the body as best we can. And that's where you'll hear sleep like tied into that, even though I think sleep is its own separate entity. But I really kind of am training women. When you're thinking of the perceived stress is that we're looking at nervous system regulation. So how often during the day can we activate that parasympathetic nervous system? Because when that's activated, the sympathetic is not. They cannot be going at the same time. So using simple things like breath work, right, like three squared breaths, quickest way to activate your parasympathetic nervous system grounding, you know, can be things like a guided meditation, a quick gratitude practice, a journaling. So when we're talking stress, as in the perceived stress, um, that is really how I'm talking about it. It's like let's actually talk about it as nervous system regulation. So taking out out of our stress nervous system and into our rest nervous system.

Philip Pape: 40:08

And what are your thoughts when it comes to perceived stress, if you can't change a situation right which is oftentimes true, but two different people perceive the same stressor differently, causing different internal stress in that part of the nervous system, so do you talk through that? Are there mechanisms where people can let things go when they happen to them?

Christina McClurken: 40:29

Yeah, yeah, and.

Christina McClurken: 40:30

I use a lot of. That's where it comes from. It's not about, like, everyone's perception, like you said, it's different. This is subjective, it's not objective. So it's more about you know.

Christina McClurken: 40:39

I always get that cliche saying like what happens around you is not a match for what happens within you. So it's like it's not about removing the stressors in your life. We're about mitigating the stress on your nervous system. So it might take somebody, you know, and that's some salt bath for a half hour, some legs up against the wall of meditation and 20 minutes of breathing to get over a snafu during their day, where for somebody else it might take, okay, a quick little release, like, and that's it. So that's on a person to person basis.

Christina McClurken: 41:06

It's about how, you know, I always say we have this like stress management toolbox and it's like how many tools do we need to pull out of the toolbox at any given time? And that is going to be based on your perceived amount of stress. So, um, you know, for one person it might mean like, yeah, let's just insert a little bit of midday breath work like a physiological site, and that's enough for them. For someone else, it's like well, I'm doing that, but I'm still, like you know short, with my kids craving sweets and all this stuff, then we need to add in a little bit more layers to that puzzle.

Philip Pape: 41:33

Okay, and I asked do you know Adam Badger? And he's in our group.

Christina McClurken: 41:36

Yeah, he's local to me. Actually I was on his podcast.

Philip Pape: 41:40

So he was on the show, I was on his and he was on my show and his episode will be coming out soon Probably a little before yours actually and one of his specialties seems to be helping people understand the trigger of why they react the way they do to stressors, and I just thought that was a very intriguing. Yet other helpful angle for folks, cause I was thinking of my own life, how I used to like be road rage was easy to come to me and then I, and then I had kids and I got too many speeding tickets and I started to like actually obey the speeding laws and then when I met my wife was like super kind and forgiving of people and she'd be like that guy's just having a bad day and I started to integrate that thinking just by osmosis. We're now like all this shit on the road doesn't really affect me and I'm like, well, can we train ourselves by digging into the tree? That's why I bring it up. It's just a cool. No, I love that. I'm actually reading.

Christina McClurken: 42:28

I don't know if you've ever heard of the motion code and the body code, so I just but yeah, I use a lot of you know and just pulling from my own experience because, as we were talking about the cancer card of my family before you know, when I was going through some real hard times with my sister being ill and I'm an empath and I worked in healthcare and I was working with sick patients, I was just holding everything right, like everything.

Philip Pape: 42:54

Oh, you were a vessel for everyone's emotional stress.

Christina McClurken: 43:02

And so you were a vessel for everyone's emotional stress, and so I do work with women on specific mantras and things and affirmations that can help them. So one of my favorite ones that has become now a favorite of my clients is when you're supporting people through things, I would say to myself I help but I don't hold. I'm helping you but I'm not holding this energy. Or I care but I don't carry. I care about you but I'm not carrying this as something that's happening to me or you, but I'm not carrying this as like something that's happening to me. And or deep breaths, like you know, inhaling, saying I release and a big, open mouth exhale, I let go.

Christina McClurken: 43:23

So I really use kind of strategic things and mantras because, as we know, those have to like, resonate with you, to use, but like for each individual and whatever they're going through. And this is why coaching is coaching right, it's not a transfer of information, it's not just I manage your stress and get seven, eight hours of sleep. It's like let's actually dig into your own stressors and what will help you around that. So, yeah, I definitely believe there is a nuance to all of that, depending on the person, depending on how they react in response to certain things, and then what tools I can give them to help them manage that on their own. Got it.

Berkeley: 44:02

Hello, I am Berkeley and I wanted to give a huge thank you to Philip of Wits and Weights. He has helped me so much, gave me a completely free 30 minute call where he answered all of my questions, gave lots of great insight into programming and nutrition. All of his content is really wonderful and he has a great Facebook group that is supportive and informational. He has tons of free resources that I really really enjoy and they're all super science-based. What I really love about Philip is that he always updates his guides and he makes time to answer any questions, even though I am not currently a paying client. He really has helped me so much and I'm just so grateful.

Philip Pape: 44:49

All right. So there's something you like to talk about that is also very popular now and the research is still being developed. It's gut health, right. Well, I want to talk about that because it's one of your pillars, it's like a whole pillar, right, and that's important because I used to be kind of skeptical. This is like two years ago. I was just getting into coaching, like what is this? But it's powerful. Tell us why it's so important to everything.

Christina McClurken: 45:11

Yeah, yeah, I mean, you'll hear a lot of those terms Like the gut is the second brain. I actually kind of think of it as like the first brain. You know it's not just brain communicating down to the gut, it is absolutely the other way around as well. So you know the gut brain access is very for real. So, psychologically, what's going on with us will affect our gut. What's going on our gut will affect us psychologically. So when we, you know our gut, if you think of it as this, you know the microbiome, right, this big series of all these little microbes in there. You know they're all feeding off of what we put in our body, right, and if they're not healthy, then we could be eating all the healthy food in the world and not absorbing those nutrients, right, and so and there's a lot of women who are coming from a place of, yeah, completely eliminating food groups, right, and if you're eliminating an entire food group, the microbes that like to feed off, that will die off until you start to feed them again. There's people that might be coming from something like Optivia, eating a lot of highly processed foods. Right, your body's not getting nourished, it's not getting the nutrients that it needs and it cannot translate those to you and your body. And sometimes that's why women wonder I lost all this weight on a program like that, but I felt like crap.

Christina McClurken: 46:13

My stomach hurt, my digestion was really crappy, Crappy. No, I'm dead dead literally. I mean I came from healthcare. There's never TMI. I think of bowel movements as like an additional vital sign, so it's kind of an inclination of what's going on in your body.

Christina McClurken: 46:28

And inflammation stems from the gut. We both know systemic inflammation is one of the biggest disruptors of your weight loss attempts, fat loss attempts. So we really do have to care for our gut and the way I do that. Again, without being eliminating foods or being nitpicky, I'm all about nutrition by addition, right. So when we part of my plate is, yes, two to three cups of veggies, but how many different colors are you getting right? Those sort of things? The whole foods, the new. That's why we're choosing our empowered choices and not our sometimes foods all the time, because those empowered ones are feeding our gut with what they need to to digest our food properly. You know our serotonin is made in the gut primarily. So if you're wondering why your mood is imbalanced, we have to have a healthy gut to have a happy life. So, yeah, it's an entire pillar built in, because if we're not-.

Philip Pape: 47:11

Some amylose is tied to the gut.

Christina McClurken: 47:13

Yeah, exactly. So you know it's a pillar that, again, I address in, not a way that we have to. You know, I'm not bombarding people with tons of supplements, because I think that's also one of the worst things. There are certain ones. Yes, I'm a functional nutritionist. I strategically supplement with people that who need it. But a lot of people are looking for, you know, the, the bloat, debloat pill or something on Instagram, or not even slowing down enough to chew our food Right, even slowing down enough to chew our food right. So we, you know I talk about even the process of chewing and meal hygiene and how it impacts your digestion and then what you absorb from your food, and so it's all built in around the habits and the plate that we are working on improving our gut health throughout.

Philip Pape: 47:50

Yeah, and even even, like you mentioned supplements, prebiotics, probiotics, people think supplement, and yet the food you eat and how it ferments in your gut creates all of those four Correct yeah, so in my gut health module we talk about the prebiotics, the probiotics, the postbiotics, which are made by the two, and what those roles play, so that again it becomes okay.

Christina McClurken: 48:07

I'm choosing my foods now because I know the benefit they're having in my body, not just because it was on an approved or not approved list.

Philip Pape: 48:13

Yeah, and you mentioned different colors and diversity of food. I mean, if I suppose, if you're trying to get a certain amount of fiber and vegetables, naturally you're going to have a little more diversity. But do you, do you advise on specifics like, hey, get different types of apples, different types of this, different like to that level of diversity?

Christina McClurken: 48:35

bottom, like how many colors you know are you getting? Yeah, for that reason, because obviously, like you know, our purple veggies are going to come on and red are going to come along with different than green and orange and um, so that's really kind of you know, the. It's again a visual representation of just be mindful that we're getting different colors. And I'm not, you know, I'm a very realistic person. So if I have someone that comes in, they're like I don't like veggies that much. I'm like let's pick the one or two you like and let's roll with that at first, right? So again, it's just part of the process eventually. So if I don't want someone stressing over not getting you know 10 different colors of veggies in a week, if there's fruit too, right, yeah, well, exactly, exactly, yeah.

Philip Pape: 49:13

No, I asked that cause I man who was on the show a long time, a long time ago he was great Um, judson Brewer I think it was Dr Judson Brewer talking about all the different compounds and the different varieties of the same types of fruits and vegetables can help with your gut bacteria. I'm just curious. I'm going to call out the carnivore people here, uh, and you're going to call them out with me, I think. And basically, what do you say to the person who's like I did carnivore, I cut out all my fiber. Now I did carnivore, I cut out all my fiber. Now I'm feeling great, everything's awesome, and of course, it's the one. It's the you know this is going to work for everybody type of deal. My theory is just you know you did an elimination diet and you're just haven't reintroduced anything.

Christina McClurken: 49:49

Yeah, I mean I think you know you cannot. If you know this fiber is not a sexy topic, right? So there's not a million Instagram reels on the power of fiber, although they're coming now, like there is protein and stuff. But you cannot, if you go and read any of the research, right, you cannot deny that you are significantly lacking. You know you're a vitamin and mineral deficient if you are only eating meat. And you know, oftentimes you know, having worked in healthcare, I did counsel a lot of clients on nutrition and I would encounter some that were doing carnivore and were great, and then a few months down the road they've got gallstones and kidney issues and you know. So I think that there is.

Christina McClurken: 50:25

This is why I always say my approach is health first, weight loss, because, sure, carnivore might help you lose weight Great. But you cannot deny that when you're removing a lot of essential vitamins, minerals, nutrients from your body, which we get from our fiber and our gut, there's eventually going to be a catch to that right, your body will let you know. So, again, I think, when we're talking about weight loss, there's a million ways to do it that might not contribute to long-term health, and so I and I'm not opposed to those for short periods of time, if that's what people choose to use. But again, having worked with geriatrics and people who only wish they could go back in time and get their health back, you can't deny that having those foods in your repertoire that are providing you with fiber and all of those sort of things are eventually going to be needed to be reintroduced.

Philip Pape: 51:15

Yeah, I agree, and it's one thing to have flexibility and say, well, if it works for you, but it's another thing is long-term, is it really working for?

Christina McClurken: 51:23

if you're not tracking the right things here no-transcript cake on your birthday, right, or your wife's birthday, Like I value that and maybe not, but eventually you know there's going to said you mainly work with peripostmenopausal women who aren't like big, huge into lifting.

Philip Pape: 52:10

Do you ever work with, like physique goal oriented folks who are wanting to be really precise and are they tracking?

Christina McClurken: 52:13

or do some of them also use this approach? So some it depends Again, some of them are using this approach and having great success with that and some of them I do try to understand into tracking and I will say I kind of am like the backward approach, where most people will come in and have a program where you track macros and the goal is eventually to wean off, to not track macros Right. So I actually do the reverse. We come in and we actually like, don't track that stuff, because we get them back in touch with you know, understanding how their body works hunger, fullness, why we're choosing the foods we are, how to balance our plate, biofeedback from an actual like in, you know, inside, we get it now.

Christina McClurken: 52:43

Then all there is people that then we're like, okay, now we're at a point where we need the more meticulous data and then we go to tracking right, and then we go to tracking and then now usually, even if they've, this is where I am in my life Now I can do that without being swayed by numbers or having that negative connotation, because I've kind of relearned that process.

Christina McClurken: 53:02

So there are people that we definitely end up now Okay, and even even someone who's maybe doesn't have extreme physique goals. But now we're just kind of stuck right. We're like it seems on paper that we're doing everything right but the scale is not moving. So like let's actually put numbers to this because, as you know, there's an human error in tracking, even whether it be in, you know, writing it down or in an app and so yeah, so then we'll, we'll use it and, like I said, I tend to use chronometer or chronometer, I don't even know how you say it, but it is my favorite, because then we can also look at, you know, vitamin and mineral and are there gaps that we need to fill in and that sort of thing, when people are getting a little bit more, more in that we want to optimize, kind of stage.

Philip Pape: 53:36

Yeah, that makes sense. You got a right tool for the job, depending on what level of precision you're trying to get, um, even if it is by hand. That's why you made your tracker, so that's awesome. Um, do you have time for a couple of rapid fire questions? Absolutely, love it. All right. So what food is worst for your blood sugar balance, if that's a thing um, it's not a food, it is how you eat the food right?

Christina McClurken: 53:58

So I say food organization, not elimination. I think there was this time where it was like pick the lowest glycemic index, everything. Well, you can essentially lower the glycemic index again by pairing it with protein and fiber. So my whole thing is just try not to eat carbs alone and pair it with fat protein, because that will buffer the blood sugar response. So the worst thing for your blood sugar is to just eat a simple burning carb on its own. That you know. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 54:22

Is there a caveat right before you lift?

Christina McClurken: 54:26

weights, your muscles will put it to use. And then but, I, also still think you should have some protein before you lift weights. Well, that is when I tell people have the simplest carb you can find right. Like we're not talking high fiber or anything right before you go lift.

Philip Pape: 54:43

For sure, for sure, and there's other reasons for that which we're not going to get into. Yeah, is there?

Christina McClurken: 54:46

one habit you would say is most important than all others for success Sleep, yeah, sleep, okay, yeah. I think sleep sets people up for success. I think people don't realize the effect it has on your eating choices the next day, your hunger, your craving. So if I could say that the habit and break it down to the micro habit, get off your phone an hour before bed, that's the habit.

Philip Pape: 55:01

I can see that, because it's also one of the hardest, I think, for people to change. It's just so ingrained in, like everything about your life. So then my next question is what is the hardest of your pillars, would you say the most challenging to implement? Is it the sleepers and one of the other ones?

Christina McClurken: 55:15

Gosh, you know, I really think the mindset pillar is probably the hardest for a lot of people and again, that there's so much that we encompass, whether it be relationship with the hood, behavior change, right, the all or nothing thinking. So I, and that is what will hold everybody up, you know, it's how long we can get to before we can kind of really peel back the layers of the onion of the mindset.

Philip Pape: 55:33

Yeah, and that can be its own episode.

Christina McClurken: 55:34

We didn't even dive too much into that.

Philip Pape: 55:35

But yeah, much about that. But yeah, how long you talk about hunger cues. So how long does it take for someone to see their hunger cues? Basically normalizing, let's say.

Christina McClurken: 55:45

I mean it can happen in a week. I've done even like a free challenge. I did in January. The first week was the theme was protein and produce right and it was just like get 30 grams at your meals, get your two to three cups of veggies. The amount of people that are like I can't believe. My hunger, my cravings, that nighttime like binging is gone in like five days. So it can take. It's like rapid fire if, depending on you, know where you've come in in your life. But to actually feel that physiological difference it can happen in three days.

Philip Pape: 56:11

Yeah, that's good. That's good for people to know. It's not even though you have to be patient for some of this. That can happen quickly. What's the most overrated supplement that people keep recommending?

Christina McClurken: 56:21

I would say, oh my God, there's so many that yeah, there are, it's a tough question right.

Christina McClurken: 56:26

That could be a whole nother episode itself, but I think you know, I honestly will say supplements like the, you know, melatonin I'm just going to say that for state and I'm going to use this example because, and whether it's melatonin or some other, like nighttime sleepy something, I'm all for it, right, but it's a supplement and it cannot take the place of you should not be scrolling your phone till 11 and popping a melatonin to try to go to bed, right? Well, I think, I think a lot of these sleep supplements because the world is slow, so sleep deprived, and that is one of the things that almost everybody struggles with that they're trying to supplement for when, when they're not realizing that if we can get natural sunlight during the day, balance our blood sugar, stop eating two hours before bedtime and get off our phone and like dim our lights, you're going to sleep way better. And you could save that 80 bucks a month on your like sleep supplement.

Philip Pape: 57:13

For sure I love my Amber. Amber glasses. You know throw them on at night, um, and I just started using a pillow that helps my head kind of hang back a little bit. So you know I'm a, I'm a side sleeper, so I'm trying to be a back sleeper now and kind of support my neck a little bit more evenly.

Christina McClurken: 57:29

It's a little bit of things like that.

Philip Pape: 57:31

It's um, it's a oh my gosh, I should know what it is, Cause I had them on. I just had them on the show. You can put me on the spot, Dr Martoni Neck nest.

Christina McClurken: 57:40

I use pillow eyes. It's one of the like PTs and chiropractors use, like a little curve, and I love it too. It makes I sleep on my back as much as I can too.

Philip Pape: 57:47

Yeah, you can get that cervical spine supported, and I wear a sleep mask too, which is so awesome.

Christina McClurken: 57:52

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 57:53

Okay, last one, what's the number one benefit? Your clients report. That has nothing to do with weight loss or fat loss to fit your client's report.

Christina McClurken: 58:00

that has nothing to do with weight loss or fat loss, not fearing food anymore, being able to eat like a normal human. I always say that's like the goal of my program is like I can just eat, like I think many of us forget, like what it's like to just eat and not, you know, over-.

Philip Pape: 58:11

Confidence in food and like you're not going to lose control. That's awesome, all right. Is there anything we didn't cover? I know there's a million things. Oh my.

Christina McClurken: 58:24

God, I know I could talk to you for days Anything you wish. I asked in this topic specifically around tracking and not tracking. Yeah, no, I don't think. I think the take-home message should be when people hear like you can lose weight without tracking, it's really not. As you know, we need to track right, we need data.

Philip Pape: 58:36

It's not quote-unquote, just like not tracking.

Christina McClurken: 58:38

You know, and there's there's guidelines to it that are going to inherently build in that control, but it's like we are tracking. It's just a way to track without numbers, without weighing and measuring, as you know, so that you feel like you're not, I guess, like so encompassed by by all of that sort of stuff. So just to remove the stress, but there, but there's always got to be tracking to it, because you know, like we say, what good measures get managed, so we have to have an awareness of some way. It's just a different form of tracking right To, to pull a little bit of stress off that.

Philip Pape: 59:05

I agree, and you're covering the key variables, Like, I think, even people who subscribe to tracking calories and macros. Like you said, if it's just about macros, you are missing out on so much other context. But if you can put it as part of an overall system and now you can kind of pick and choose pieces that work for you. There was Dr Sarah Balanzai. She was on the show and she wrote the book Nutrivor and it's funny because she has a little comment in there about like you don't have to track calories and macros, but then she has a tracker based on nutrient quality. So I'm like, okay, there you go. So anyway, where can people find you, Christina?

Christina McClurken: 59:37

They can find me on Instagram at it's underscore Christina, underscore McClurkin, which I'm sure you can write that out, and my website is yourhealthybestiecom.

Philip Pape: 59:47

Awesome, we will do that. Let's see website and IG. We'll throw that in the show notes. Thank you so much, christina. It was a lot of fun. Listeners are always looking for just different approaches. Something's going to work for them, something's going to resonate, so I hope they reach out to you if that's right for them.

Christina McClurken: 1:00:00

Amazing. Thank you so much. I totally enjoyed it it was a lot of fun.

How to Lose Fat and Gain Muscle WITHOUT Bulking or Cutting (Jeff Hoehn) | Ep 309

Get the other part of this conversation on Jeff's podcast "The Mind Muscle Connection" to hear Philip discussing more aggressive approaches to body recomposition

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Can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time, without gaining or losing weight, but instead by eating at maintenance calories to achieve the holy grail of body recomposition (aka "body recomp")?

Jeff Hoehn of The Mind Muscle Connection podcast and I break down what's possible and how to adjust your diet and training to create an environment for body recomp at maintenance. You'll learn the realities of this approach and who will benefit most from it.

This is one part of a special two-part collaboration. Don't miss the companion episode on Jeff's podcast where Philip covers slightly more aggressive approaches to body recomp.

Main Takeaways:

• Is body recomposition at maintenance actually possible, and for whom?

• The surprising truth about what happens to your weight during successful recomposition

• Why your training approach matters more than you might think

• The often-overlooked nutritional strategy that can make or break your results

• How tracking progress differs when you're not focused on weight loss or gain

• The hidden lifestyle factors that determine your recomp success

• Why the maintenance approach might be more sustainable than traditional methods

Timestamps:

0:01 - What is "body recomp" at maintenance?
3:03 - The science behind simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain
5:28 - Who body recomposition at maintenance works best for
10:17 - Maintenance vs. slight surplus for muscle building
14:09 - Common problems and pitfalls with the maintenance approach
20:20 - How to track progress when the scale isn't changing much
24:45 - The value of tracking weight as data
28:19 - The role of lifestyle factors in successful body recomposition

Listen to the other part of this conversation on Jeff's podcast "The Mind Muscle Connection" to hear Philip discussing more aggressive approaches to body recomposition

Recomp Done Right: How to Build Muscle and Lose Fat Without Bulking or Cutting

You don’t have to stuff your face to bulk or starve yourself to get lean. There’s a better way to change your physique—one that doesn’t require weight fluctuations, yo-yo dieting, or playing mental games with the scale. It’s called body recomposition at maintenance, and it might be the exact strategy you need right now.

In this episode, Jeff Hoehn and I talk through the maintenance-based approach to recomposition—how to build muscle and lose fat (or at least reduce body fat percentage) without dramatically changing your body weight. If you’re tired of the extremes, keep reading.

What Is Recomp at Maintenance?

Body recomposition is simply the process of building muscle while losing fat. You end up with a leaner, stronger, more athletic physique—even if the scale doesn’t move much (or at all). Recomp at maintenance means your calorie intake stays roughly the same, but the quality of your inputs—training, nutrition, sleep, stress—gets dialed in.

In other words, you’re not in a bulk or a cut. You’re staying steady in calories, but changing your body from the inside out.

Can You Really Build Muscle and Lose Fat Without Changing Weight?

Yes—but it depends.

You can build muscle and lose fat at the same time, especially if:

• You're new to resistance training or coming back after a break

• You’ve dieted a lot in the past and never trained properly

• You’re “skinny fat” and want to reshape your body without gaining weight

• You’re not super lean but don’t have a ton of fat to lose either

However, if you're already lean and have been training consistently for years, it’s harder to make dramatic changes without entering a surplus. For more advanced lifters, a slight surplus is often needed to maximize growth.

The Hidden Benefit of Maintenance: Changing Body Fat Percentage

Even if you’re not losing pounds of fat, you can still lower your body fat percentage by adding lean mass.

Think of it like this:
If you weigh 160 lbs at 25% body fat, that’s 120 lbs lean mass and 40 lbs fat.
If you stay at 160 lbs but build 5 lbs of muscle, now you’re 125 lbs lean mass and 35 lbs fat = 21.9% body fat. That’s recomp.

Who Is This Best For?

Maintenance-based recomp works well if:

• You’ve been yo-yo dieting and want to rebuild metabolism and muscle

• You want to look like you lift without the ups and downs of bulking/cutting

• You have a bit of fat to lose but don’t want to aggressively diet again

• You’re motivated by strength, performance, and body composition—not the scale

It’s not ideal if you need to drop 30+ lbs of fat. In that case, a focused fat loss phase is more efficient.

What Makes It Work? (Spoiler: It's Not the Calories)

Calories are only part of the story. What really drives body recomposition is your inputs:

• Progressive strength training (compound lifts, consistent overload)

• Adequate protein intake (0.8–1.0 g per pound of goal body weight)

• Meal timing around training (especially pre- and post-workout carbs and protein)

• Recovery, sleep, and stress management

• Daily habits and structure, including consistency with tracking

If your training sucks, your recomp will too. The signal to grow muscle has to be loud and clear—especially if you’re not in a surplus.

Common Mistakes That Ruin Recomp

If maintenance-based recomp isn’t working for you, it might be because of:

• Unstructured eating habits (under-eating during the week, binging on weekends)

• Skipping meals, especially around training

• Not tracking accurately (or at all)

• Inconsistent protein intake

• Poor training performance (too little volume or intensity)

• Too much stress, not enough sleep

You can’t expect high-level results from low-effort habits. Recomp is slower than bulking or cutting, so your execution has to be tighter.

How to Track Progress Without Losing Motivation

This is one of the biggest challenges. People want dramatic changes, and maintenance doesn’t feel exciting on paper. So how do you stay motivated?

Track:

• Training performance (are your lifts going up?)

• Progress photos (every 4–6 weeks)

• How you feel (energy, libido, mood, hunger)

• Circumference measurements (waist, hips, etc.)

• Sleep quality and stress levels

And yes, still weigh yourself, even if your goal isn’t weight change. The scale provides important feedback about your energy balance. Just understand that daily fluctuations are normal and long-term trends matter more.

Should You Aim Slightly Above or Below Maintenance?

Depends on your psychology and your history.

If you’ve under-eaten in the past, you may benefit from pushing slightly above maintenance (e.g. 100–150 kcal/day over). That upward drift in body weight—just 3–5 lbs over a year—is often where the best results happen.

If you’re more worried about fat gain, you might stick right at calculated maintenance (with precise tracking). Either way, be honest about what’s working. Are you getting stronger? Is your body composition improving? Adjust accordingly.

Final Thought: You Need to EARN the Right to Cut

Maintenance isn’t just a holding zone. It’s a productive phase that:

• Rebuilds your metabolism

• Improves training performance

• Grows muscle without added fat

• Sets you up for a more effective future cut (if you decide to do one)

So if you’ve been spinning your wheels chasing fat loss or feel afraid to bulk, this might be your ideal path.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you are daunted by the thought of force-feeding yourself to bulk for muscle, but fear gaining fat or aggressively dieting to cut for fat loss, this episode will give you a new perspective. The question we're asking is can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time, without gaining or losing weight, but instead by eating at or maintenance calories to achieve the holy grail of body recomposition? My guest and I will break down what's possible and how to adjust your diet and training, and you'll learn about the realities of body recomp at maintenance and how to create an environment to get the results you want. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've got something special lined up with my friend, jeff Hain, host of the Mind Muscle Connection podcast. Jeff and I decided to tackle body recomposition, which is your ability to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, but from two different angles, on our two shows. So today, on Wits and Weights, you're going to hear us focus on the maintenance approach. Can you transform your body without drastically changing your calorie intake? And if you enjoy this conversation, make sure and follow Jeff's podcast Again, the Mind Muscle Connection, where I jump on as a guest to discuss body recomp, but using slight surpluses and deficits rather than maintenance.

Philip Pape: 1:43

Now, if you guys don't know Jeff, he's been on the show a few times. We've collaborated for a long time. He's a great guy, a really honorable authentic fitness professional out there, and he's helped lots of clients probably hundreds, probably thousands at this point transform their bodies with evidence-based methods. His knowledge in body recomp has made him kind of a go-to expert for people looking to do this. So that's why I thought this would be valuable for you guys. So I want you to listen carefully today to learn what you can and cannot do at maintenance to maximize your results, regardless of your experience level. All right, jeff, thank you for coming on again and welcome to the show. Let's get into it.

Jeff Hoehn: 2:18

Yeah, man, I'm looking forward to chatting about this and having both of these angles here.

Philip Pape: 2:28

I think it will be super uh interesting for the, for the listener. Yeah, we were joking, as we prepared for this, that, um, maybe we're going to disappoint people because everyone wants the holy grail body recomp. And you hear, like a lot of marketing around this like, yeah, just build muscle, lose fat at the same time. Um, I even hear some of the big names like, um, uh, holly baxter, you know she's actually gonna be on the show man, if, if you can believe it, holly Baxter is big into like let's just stay near maintenance and you can build a ton of muscle and lose fat. So what I want to address first is, like, what does the science say behind that? In general, can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time? And then we can get into like, who and what situations can work at maintenance or not work.

Jeff Hoehn: 3:03

Yeah, yeah. So, like you said, you know, it's kind of a misconception, right, that that you can't, you know, do both at the same time. And you, and you certainly can, Um, you know, and the research does back this up. I know there was a study from Bearcat a couple of years ago and they looked at advanced, you know, people that had been training for a little while and they were able to gain muscle and lose body fat, right, you know, there's kind of that misconception that you need to if you want to build muscle, you need to be in this like large surplus to do that.

Jeff Hoehn: 3:28

And again, we'll, I'm sure, throughout this we'll, we'll dive into the specifics of where that might be, you know, feasible at and where that makes the most sense. But you know, a lot, of a lot of people have I tell people this a lot of people have a lot larger of a runway to do this than they, than they think. Um, you know, I think a lot of people just say, oh, you know, I've been training for a couple of years, I can't do it. But, um, again, as I'm sure we'll get into, there's a lot of things that go into it that people are not maximizing, um, where they're going to be able to. You know, see this, this simultaneous fat loss and muscle gain, Um, but again, it is that kind of holy grail is going to depend. It's going to be in the right situation and I think our inputs are going to be super important as well in that process.

Philip Pape: 4:10

Yeah. So I really want to get right to the what you probably hear and I hear as well People that haven't gone through this before, haven't cut, haven't bulked, maybe aren't even attracting their nutrition and they're like I don't want to gain a bunch of weight because I'm going to get fat and I don't want to have to diet because that sounds miserable and I've tried it before. I really want to gain like 15, 20 pounds of muscle and I want to do it at maintenance, like is that even possible? And again, we can break down from there, like the situations and scenarios behind it.

Jeff Hoehn: 4:37

Yeah, so I think so. So let's, because I kind of, before we talked about this, we kind of had an outline planned out when we were talking about you know, my approach was we were going to talk about the maintenance side of things and you said, you know, lose fat and build muscle. I'm like I kind of said, hey, I didn't want to ruin that episode right away by just saying, hey, being at maintenance, the downside with being at maintenance is you're probably not, probably you're not going to really lose any amount of body fat when you're truly at your maintenance. You know calories and again, we can talk about what exactly maintenance calories is, but that's going to be the one downside. However, you the question you specifically asked was hey, I want to gain, you know, say, 15 to 20 pounds of muscle. Can I do that at maintenance? And I believe you can totally do that at maintenance calories right now and saying that this is where it gets a little confusing. But you know, if you're gaining tissue and again, via, via muscle, you are going to you probably see your body weight trend up.

Jeff Hoehn: 5:28

So it's going to get a little confusing in terms of, like you may not actually keep your exact same body weight, right. So that's where things can get a little bit kind of confusing. If you're just looking at numbers and based off of of body weight, Right. But if we're talking specifically, hey, you're at maintenance calories and you don't want to gain a ton of body fat, you can certainly do that, um, and again, I I'll go into this. But I guess the thing that you could do, though and this is where maybe some people get confused is you know you could theoretically lose by, like your body fat percentage could decrease by kind of taking this approach, right, um, because, again, you're increasing your, your lean body mass, um, and you know, again, if your weight's not really trending up a ton, you know you may see your, your body fat percentage decrease a bit here, uh, in this process. So I don't know if I answered your specific question on that, but you did and you, you hit the nuance on the head right there.

Philip Pape: 6:17

There are a couple different subtle scenarios near maintenance, one of which you just said is you can build muscle, you may even gain weight, you're kind of at maintenance or slightly above, but your body recomp is changing without losing fat necessarily. But your, you know your body fat percentage goes down. It's just numbers. If you have more muscle as a percentage of your body, you have lower body fat percentage and that is recomp. So I think people need to understand that. But you also said that you can't like lose meaningful fat in terms of just pounds of fat, unless you're in a deficit, which is a whole different situation. So when people understand that if they have like 20 or 30 pounds to lose fat, is it the most efficient approach? And this leads me to the question of who is it right for, who can benefit, who should waste the time at maintenance let's call it when they should be in a deficit, versus those who would like really maximize the results this way?

Jeff Hoehn: 7:08

Yeah. So, like you said, I mean, you're not going to get, you know, you're not going to have this crazy amount of of body fat loss here at this, right. So to me, who would benefit the most from this? Well, this is going to be somebody who maybe you're quote, unquote skinny fat or you've, like, done a ton of diets in the past and you've just always focused on like weight loss in the past. And you just always focused on like weight loss in the past, right, and? And usually that approach is going to lead to somebody not really ever focusing on like hypertrophy style training. It was usually, you know, the the kind of avatar I'm thinking of as someone who, like, cuts out all their carbs, go super low calorie, just does a ton of cardio, right, and again, that's probably not going to be great from a muscle, lean body mass standpoint. So I think that person who's like yo-yoed in the past and always focused on just weight loss and like just being their small self, that's somebody who I think could benefit from being around their maintenance calories and really focusing on on adding muscle in that process, right, you're not actively trying to see your body weight go down. Maybe it comes up a little bit, but you're again like we said. You're, you're decreasing your body fat percentage and, um, again you're kind of getting rid of that. That skinny fat, look right. So that's one person that I think would benefit the most from that.

Jeff Hoehn: 8:13

And then another person that would benefit would be someone who, again, muscle is. You want to add a ton of muscle, but you're also not necessarily as lean as you want to be yet, right. And so again, this kind of comes around to someone who's again always kind of fat loss dieted, or maybe you just don't want a fat loss diet right now, right. And again, adding more muscle is super important to you.

Jeff Hoehn: 8:36

To me, that's going to be someone who is going to benefit a ton from being at, you know, their maintenance calories and trying to, um, just focus on, on, on that. And again, you're not like super lean either, right, cause the leaner you are, the tougher this is going to be. To build muscle at maintenance, you're going to have to, you know, have a little bit of body fat on your body. So I think, really long story it's going to be most beneficial for someone who's dieted a ton in the past. You aren't super lean, but you aren't. Uh, yeah, you're not super lean, but you also maybe aren't necessarily like super overweight either. Because again, in that situation you probably would be better off kind of going at the approach, you know, more of a fat loss kind of a style approach there.

Philip Pape: 9:12

uh, with that, yeah, it makes sense and again it always comes out to. It depends on what's your training history, what's your dieting history, what is your goal right now? Cause I I'm sure you've met lots of guys who have a little extra fat and they're not ready for fat loss. So what? Here's an interesting thing I've seen come up lately, jeff, and I wasn't really aware of it so much more than like a year and a half ago.

Philip Pape: 9:36

But there are definitely a lot of influencers and some very respected guys out there who lift a lot, who will say you never really need to gain a lot of weight or be in a surplus. You could always be. You could always be in a little bit of a maintenance plus mode, you know, like just just riding just above maintenance and feeding yourself every day, never falling into a deficit, really, and you can get tremendous results, and then you don't have to worry about gaining a bunch of fat. But then we have, like Helms et al right, the, the, the study that came out was it last year that showed we could actually go more aggressively than we thought and not gain fat. So what are, what is your thoughts on maintenance being kind of this Holy grail for building muscle when it's like just above maintenance. You know what I mean.

Jeff Hoehn: 10:17

Yeah Well, again, I mean, the key is going to be you're going to, you know you're going to limit, you know body fat gain in that process. But again, if you're like on the leaner side and you already have a good amount of muscle, again that's probably not going to be the right approach for you. You're probably going to need to be in a small surplus. Um, and again, if you really want to build a ton of muscle, right, like I think that that's another person that, like you're going to probably need to be in a small surplus. But most people don't necessarily want to be bodybuilder style, you know, uh, muscle size, right. So, like for them, to me it makes a little bit more sense to not have to be in this surplus, to then, you know, kind of have to cut it all off later on, right, I just feel like people do a lot of kind of yo-yoing, uh, with that uh approach, right. And again, the big thing being like what we do in that process is super important, like maximizing our training, right, that so it's geared towards hypertrophy, you know, setting up your lifestyle so that you're in a good spot to add muscle, right. And then you know, same thing with nutrition, like making sure those things are dialed in. You know, the more we can get all those things dialed in, the more likely you're going to be able to ensure that you're going to build muscle without, you know, gaining body fat and really not needing as big of a surplus or needing one at all. So again, I think it really comes down to our methods and what we do. That's going to be the biggest thing.

Jeff Hoehn: 11:32

What I see happen a lot of times is people will think that the magic is gaining weight and like that's where, that's where they spend all their time is like just trying to see their scale weight go up. Hey, I'm in a surplus, so I'm just or I'm in a building phase, I want to try to add muscle, so I just want to see my scale weight go up and that, like is this the main thing that they focus on in that process? And they kind of overlook the inputs which ultimately, are going to really be the most important thing to tell your body to add, you know, lean body mass in that process. So hopefully that answers your question there. But that's like the big thing that we're looking at there with that is really your inputs are going to be the big thing, um, and then again, the more muscle you want to build and the leaner you are and the more muscle you have, we're going to have to shift to, you know, being in a surplus.

Jeff Hoehn: 12:13

And I always tell people this too at the end of the day, when we look at the three energy balances that we can be in and when it comes to muscle growth, the best is going to be a small surplus at the end of the day, right? If you want to absolutely maximize muscle growth, you know. If you want to absolutely maximize muscle growth, you know a small surplus is going to be the best in most situations. Second, maintenance is going to be right. There Again, you can still build a ton, a good amount of muscle around your maintenance calories. And then three, a deficit. Right, the larger the deficit, the less likely this is going to be to happen. No-transcript building muscle.

Philip Pape: 12:56

Yeah, and you pointed out that the training variables absolutely at or near the top right. Like we hear it over and over again, people focusing too much on, maybe, protein and they're not even training hard Like that. That's my problem nowadays is I've talked to people who say, look, I want to lose fat or I want to improve my body composition, I'm not worried about the training part. Tell me about the nutrition. I'm like no, no, they go together and if anything, you need to be training and then the food will follow. So we we've kind of put into buckets the type of person or the scenario you're in where you would find success from body recomp, near maintenance. It sounds like definitely, if you're maybe leaner. If you don't, um, or or no, if you're leaner, you need to build potentially more aggressively. But people have just a little bit of fat to lose or not worried about like massive fat loss. Um, training is important. Progressive overload, you know, protein, all that stuff.

Philip Pape: 13:46

What are the top one or two, I guess, problems people have when they do try to do that Like is it they accidentally fall into diets all the time? Or some lack of consistency, because maintenance you talked about it on my show a long time ago. It can be its own challenge just trying to stay in that realm. So what kind of tracking, what kind of precision, what kind of problems do people have with doing this? Yeah, so you're basically saying, like, what kind of precision, what kind of problems do people have?

Jeff Hoehn: 14:09

with doing this. Yeah, so you're basically saying like, hey, someone is they want to try to maximize building muscle here around maintenance. Like what are the big problems that people end up kind of running themselves into to not maximize this?

Philip Pape: 14:19

You got it, yep.

Jeff Hoehn: 14:20

Yeah, I mean, like you said, the big thing being the not dialing in your nutrition in terms of, like you said, under eating, potentially meal timing being a big one, right, where you know people maybe are skipping meals, maybe they have some days where they're higher calorie because they go out and eat, have you know, they have events, or maybe they just don't really care about focusing on their nutrition on that day, um, and then they have. Then they see their scale go up a little bit and now they you know they're they're like, oh boy, I got to make up for that now, and now I got to go low calorie, right, and so that is the. The trick here with being around maintenance is it does give you a little bit less wiggle room in terms of, like you know you really want to try how often you're skipping meals and like dipping into large deficits, because that is going to be something that can large deficits in the short term, because that is going to be something that over time, is going to impact your ability to add muscle and, you know, not overall body composition. So I guess it would be having unstructured nutrition days where they're either too high or too low, and again one or two here, and they're not going to make or break, but the more often those happen, that's going to lead to suboptimal body composition, uh, in the long run.

Jeff Hoehn: 15:27

And then again, meal timing, like you said, skipping meals, um, not having meals around your training sessions, uh, you know, that's one thing that I think people often overlook is the importance of meal timing around their workouts. Uh, especially in this, when we're trying to do what we're doing here, where we want to add muscle without really adding much body fat, your training is going to be super important, and so we want to make sure we set that up in the best way possible. So, again, whether that be making sure that you you know however you like to structure your meals around your workouts, but making sure you're well-fueled going into your training so you have the best training possible, making sure you're well hydrated going into your training, right.

Philip Pape: 16:03

Define that, jeff? Define that for people, jeff, just so they know that maybe keto is not the answer here, I don't know. Tell me.

Jeff Hoehn: 16:08

What do you mean? What about hydration?

Philip Pape: 16:11

Fueling yourself before your workouts?

Jeff Hoehn: 16:12

Yeah, so, just again, making sure that you're not going into your training like not having eaten for three, five plus hours. Or again, making sure you do get some carbohydrate intake, uh, around your workout, right, um, just again, making sure that we're not just again not going in to it to where you're hungry, and then that's going to impact your, your, your training performance, um, there, right Cause, again, that's going to be something that in the short term maybe you don't really notice it, but over time you take someone who times that, has really good meal timing, around their workouts compared to someone who is just lax around it. Over a year, I guarantee you the person who is on top of their meal timing is going to see much better progress from a body composition standpoint because they're going to set themselves up from a to have good training sessions, which ultimately is the most important thing to send that signal to build muscle. Um, and then also like not getting protein around your workouts either, right, whether that be? Hey, maybe you like to go work out when you first wake up, that's fine. Um, so again, after that, make sure you get some protein in at least around your sometime around your workout. Same thing there. You put someone who nails that versus someone who doesn't.

Jeff Hoehn: 17:13

The person who nails their protein around, their workout, to me, is going to have better results. You know, when you expand out, uh, their hydration, again, even a small amount of dehydration which you can't even really notice, can potentially impact performance. So, again, we want to make sure what we're hydrated, uh, there, right. So from a nutrition perspective, those are the big things. And then, obviously, like you said, you know training is super important. But if we're not on top of our like protein, and when I mean protein, like overall intake and even timing, to an extent I think you're going to uh potentially impact your, your, your muscle gain, um, and therefore your body composition over the long run.

Philip Pape: 17:50

Yeah, and, by the way, you guys, if you're listening, if you don't follow Jeff's show, follow it, because he he constantly goes into these details and like what to do under different scenarios. So we're not, we're not going to like dive into how much protein you need and all that fun stuff today, even though we both could do it for hours. What I really want the listener to understand is is this right for me? Two more things come to mind in that context.

Philip Pape: 18:12

One is how do you track this in a way that still motivates you? Because I could see you, especially if you have a new client. Do you ever get a new client that comes to you and it's like you know, I want a better body and I want to just like be a maintenance. I mean, that to me doesn't sound sexy or like something anybody would ever say, um, so like, is this a? Is this the best protocol for someone who's just doing it for the first time? Because I could see a lack of motivation from a feeling like a lack of direction. How do you address that?

Jeff Hoehn: 18:38

Yeah. So you know, again, I think it is important to see where, where the client is at and what they want to do when they when they come in. Right, because, again, if somebody is super like, again, knowing what the client wants I think is super important, right. So, again, like this if somebody is like, hey, ultimately I want to lose body fat, and we look at their history and they and they haven't dieted recently, okay, well, hey, maybe we are going to push you into a small like a deficit is going to be something that's probably going to be better for you now. But let's say, somebody wants to add muscle and like this is what they want to do that. And we look at their body composition. I'm like, hey, we could sit here and we can put you into a surplus and have you gain weight, but do I think that's going to be the best for your long term body composition? Because I think if we just focus on scale weight, that's where you're going to kind of get yourself caught up and think that you're just kind of not making progress. So it's looking at other aspects, right, and what I mean by that is, yes, you know, progress, pictures, measurements, but again, even those probably aren't going to be like this drastic change, you know, in a two, three month span, just by what we're doing here with this approach, right, so it's more so like hey, you know, training performance, like tracking that, seeing that improve, like kind of you know, connecting the dots there with the training performance. Also how they feel as well, too, right, like that's something that I'm consistently like trying to check in with clients on of like, how do you feel? Like, if you're feeling better, you're feeling strong, you just feel more flexibility, you have more energy from day to day, uh, whatever that is for the person, better libido, whatever it is like those are things that we're really going to hone in on, because I feel, like, at maintenance, you can really dial those things in. Um, so, really kind of connecting the dots there, uh, to show them improvement from that perspective, I think is is, uh, it's huge.

Jeff Hoehn: 20:20

And then again, if you take blood, like if you get your blood work checked, you know, looking at that, um, you know, those are the things that I always try to connect to, like looking at those things versus just scale weight and then explaining to them hey, if we can nail this down to where you know, we can get your habits in place here.

Jeff Hoehn: 20:36

Um, get your lifestyle habits in place. Um, you're getting stronger, you're adding some muscle. Like this is going to set you up for more effective and efficient fat loss. When we, when we get there, um, or maybe you don't even need to do that, maybe you decide like you love this and you feel soup, like your, your body composition continues to improve and then maybe you feel like you don't ever really need to fat loss diet. Or maybe you do this and then now it's like it makes fat loss um something that you just do for a very short amount of time throughout the year, just to kind of clean things up a little bit, versus like being in this endless yo-yoing where, like every time you get into fitness, you only focus on dropping weight, don't really build any habits, and then you and then it's just this kind of vicious cycle on there. So connecting the dots there with that, I think, is super important too.

Philip Pape: 21:17

For sure, and you, you talked about kind of this magic of maintenance when you were on the show before that. It can be used as a tool in in before you ever diet, you know just to dial things in after you've gone through fat loss to sustain. Now we're talking about using it strategically to potentially improve your body recomp long-term as a mode to be in.

Philip Pape: 21:35

It's hard for me to understand, Jeff, because I just so love change and like constantly seeing things happen and but some people are totally cool with it. Some people are like I don't want the, maybe the fatigue of constantly trying to add more or reduce more. So when we do talk about staying in maintenance and not looking at the scale, there still is a scale component in that maintenance, by definition, is staying right here in this like narrow range. How do people do that in terms of using the scale, or do they? Are there situations where they don't even need to? Because if, if you weigh yourself today and then six months from now you're roughly the same, hey, you're kind of at maintenance, right, I don't know what are your thoughts on that.

Jeff Hoehn: 22:14

I personally, like I try to get everyone to use the scale just as a as a tool, and like try to educate them around it, right? So, like, cause I do get some people are like, oh, you know, I just stopped using the scale Cause it gets in my head. It's like, well, I want to work on that because we need to like figure that out. This is just data at the end of the day, right, so I like to make sure somebody takes, you know, their, their scale weight there, cause I just think that, again, it's a great way to kind of learn what's actually going on, because, at the end of the day, we do need to take that, because that's going to tell us the energy balance that we are in, uh in, in that process, right, so I think it's super important as far as, like, what, what I'm looking for on the scale. Again, this is, as I've said, with everything so far, it's going to be very context dependent on the person, but you know what I mean by that is, if you just got done with the fat loss phase and now we transition you to your maintenance calories, you're going to see this kind of weird stabilization of your scale weight. So that's just all kind of noise, in my opinion, right. So there's that. But from there, biggest thing I'm looking for is just not seeing any trends in a short amount of time, to me as maintenance, right. And so what I mean by that is if we're consistently seeing, when we look at your average weight for the week and we see it trending either up or down, that you're in either a surplus or a small deficit, and then from there it's like, well, you know, if we're finding that, hey, you're feeling good, your body composition is really changing, maybe we can kind of continue on that trend, no-transcript plus or minus, and then again, over time, maybe it is drifting in.

Jeff Hoehn: 23:57

So just for example, um, my, my last fat loss phase ended in uh 20, the end of 2023 ish, like October ish timeframe. I was one 55, spent the next couple of months purposely gaining a little bit of weight, you know, letting things kind of stabilize a little bit, uh, and then from there I gained up to about one 62 and then really over the last like 60 ish weeks. You know it's been between one 63 and one 66 and it's kind of slowly trended up that way. Now somebody could be like you know it's been between 163 and 166 and it's kind of slowly trended up that way. Now somebody could be like, well, dude, you're in a small surplus, but really it, to me it's. It's maintained, really over time, right, so we're talking maintenance is not going to be this exact number of like oh hey, you're 166.6. Now, you're going to stay there every single time you go in. Right, you may see it trend one way or the other, just a little bit, but it's those short-term trends that we just don't want to see there.

Philip Pape: 24:45

This is a very important point, Jeff, I think for people, because if you're thinking of maintenance as literally an exact number all the time, you could be setting yourself up for failure because you could be dipping into deficits. And I don't know about you. When I think body recomp, I rarely think of it as a very tiny deficit, Like. To me that's kind of inefficient, right, Because your body will adapt and keep you at maintenance, but then now you're not eating as much as you could, so you're just never quite fully recovered and you're not really losing fat either. So is what you're saying is maybe the best, maybe one of the best or efficient approach is to kind of be a little bit on top, like almost have that upward drift, because three to six pounds in a year or two, it really is nothing. And and and frankly, if you're going to build muscle and that's a denser tissue, like you said earlier, you're probably going to want to have a little extra weight anyway. Is that? Is that where the thinking is?

Jeff Hoehn: 25:35

Yeah, pretty much too Right, Like artificially low maintenance, like this artificially low maintenance calories, where their their body's adapted to that and now you know, they don't feel as good, right, their body's just not thriving at that point. So what I suggest is at that point, hey, you're going to increase your calories a little bit and you may see your weight again kind of stabilize a little bit, but you're feeling good. And then you know, again, we're not necessarily trying to push weight up, but if it turns up a little bit over say a three, six, 12 month span, as long as you're feeling good, body composition still looks good. You know, based on all the things that we're tracking, performance is good. I'm not, I'm not concerned about your weight, not like coming up, you know, a couple of pounds, right? So again somebody could argue of like, oh, hey, that's not maintenance, then that's a, that's still technically. You're not trying to push scale weight up every single time you weigh in or over multiple weeks, right? For?

Philip Pape: 26:37

sure, especially when the goal is body recomp. The goal isn't to be at maintenance, that's just a route to get there right.

Jeff Hoehn: 26:44

Really, at the end of the day, what we're trying to do here is we're just trying to fuel your body enough, okay, to make sure that you're giving it the micronutrients it needs. Um, you know, when we're at maintenance, everything just flows much better, right? When you're giving your body enough fuel, uh in in in that process, right? So, again, libido is going to be in the best uh position. Um, there, uh, again, you're going to feel your best here, uh, in this right, bio, your, your uh blood work and everything should be in a good spot. As long as, again, as long as we are continuing to do all these things outside of, like, like the sleep stress, solid nutrition, um, training, right.

Jeff Hoehn: 27:19

I always tell people, just because your scale weights, if your scale weight isn't trending down and you want it to, but you're doing all those things, you're going to see a different body composition over time, um, by by doing those things, right.

Jeff Hoehn: 27:38

So I always try to frame it as that. And again, our body needs this, this period of time, to be around these, these calories, and my whole thing on this is if somebody, let's say somebody, they they do this fat loss, they do muscle gain, but they still have some body fat they need to lose. This is the perfect position for you to be for, say, six, nine months out of the year, because you're putting your body in the best position to to feel good where it's at, you're continuing to build your habits. Um, and you know, that beats somebody who still has body fat to lose and they're. They're losing body fat, but then they try and go into a large surplus and gain weight. Um, over time, right, but again, not to confuse people, it's okay If you see your weight come up a little bit during that period of time. The key is to just not try to push it continuously going up, right, that's where people gain body fat and that's where I think people get themselves stuck long-term in that process.

Philip Pape: 28:19

For sure, yeah, unless you're doing it on purpose, right, like I just gained 15, 17 pounds and it's like, and I got to pay for it by fat loss, dieting the other way. But so just very specific tip for folks then, if they're working with a coach who gives them a target, or they're using a tracking app and they have a target, that where they think their maintenance calories are at this point, um, do you recommend slightly overshooting on a daily basis? Is there a, like, a mental strategy you recommend to make sure you're in the right spot?

Jeff Hoehn: 28:44

Yeah, this again, I hate to say this, but it's going to depend on the client, right, like again, if they are super, like, if they're a little bit on the leaner side, they really want to maximize muscle growth, I'm going to say, hey, it's okay If you go a little bit over, right?

Jeff Hoehn: 28:57

If someone is maybe a little bit more, um, uh, I don't know the word I'm kind of looking for here they, they, they really want to be careful with gaining body fat mentally. You know I can just tell, right, but we're going to pair that with their biofeedback and everything like that, and I want to, I want to see how they're feeling there and then obviously again continuing to monitor their, uh, their body composition, because that's going to, to me, that's going to be the the biggest indicator, because I think where you want to be careful with is people are very good at under reporting their, their caloric intake, right. So this is where it comes into like, okay, in theory, in theory, in a perfect world, maybe we do kind of have them push slightly above what their quote, unquote, maintenance calories are, whatever, whatever that is for that person. But in practice, this is where, like you kind of, I like to rely on like, okay, here's what I've seen. I know that people tend to underestimate their caloric intake. Let's, maybe you can be a little bit lower than that, right.

Philip Pape: 29:52

No, no, I agree. Like different yeah, Different people have different mental framing around targets and, and you know, like some people want to hit the target right on Cause they're kind of robotic about it, like you know, I love hitting my targets Others always have to be in one direction or else they feel like they fail every day. Not that we want to have them in that mental state, but it depends. Like you said, it depends. So, um, we, we covered a lot of the go ahead.

Jeff Hoehn: 30:15

Well, I was just gonna say, hopefully that gives somebody an idea of like, hey, where you know you're kind of at, that gives you a better idea of where you should, should kind of focus on. And then again, looking at your trends, where's that trending at over time, if you're slightly seeing your body weight trend down, someone who pushes it a little bit higher, um as well to there.

Philip Pape: 30:32

So this is why I like to talk to guys like you, jeff, because we all have slightly nuanced takes on this. Like I would probably fall in the trap on my podcast of saying just always go over a little bit if you're trying to be a maintenance, cause I've seen too many people diet under. But then I recall the clients who need to be careful because they're they're trying to avoid gaining too much. So again, whatever resonates with you, you got to go with that. Is there any last tip or pitfall that we didn't cover related to body recomp at maintenance you want listeners to know about.

Jeff Hoehn: 31:02

Yep. So, again, like I said, I just think people tend to overly focus on, hey, surplus, gaining weight, losing weight, when we need to focus on the training stimulus that we're sending, because that, ultimately, is going to be the most important. People overlooked that just because you're training doesn't necessarily mean you're doing that in the most efficient way. There again, nutrition obviously not only calories and macros, but like quality of food that you're bringing in, making sure you get enough protein. And then the couple that I see people commonly overlook are going to be their lifestyle. They're again setting up their environment right, whether that, again, that's your relationships, that's your environment in terms of your work, what you, you know, what you're around all the time.

Jeff Hoehn: 31:39

Sleep is a huge one as well, too, and not only, hey, just get eight hours of sleep, but sleep quality, like making sure we're setting ourselves up for good sleep, and you can kind of put in your circadian health and circadian rhythm into that.

Jeff Hoehn: 31:49

And then and then stress management, right, and stress management being not only, oh, hey, I had a stressful day at work, but again thinking about all the stress that we're putting on our body, uh, and thinking about it from that standpoint and balancing that out to where. Hey, you know we want to have a good balance of parasympathetic, sympathetic inputs and making sure we're balancing that out and we're not letting it get too far on, say, the sympathetic side of things, right? So, again, that's going to look different for everybody what that is, but figuring out what you're doing to your body, that's adding stress, and trying to bring that down, those are going to be things I think people often overlook and can make the world of a difference and really allow you to get more out of every calorie that you put into your body. Um, it's probably the best way I could. I could put that.

Philip Pape: 32:28

Yeah, it's a great way to put it because smart, efficient, you know doing it the right way. Otherwise you're kind of wasting time, um, and you've got some really good content on this. I know you do these workshops occasionally, these free workshops on body recomp, that kind of go through the big pillars. So if you guys are interested in learning more, definitely reach out to jeff. And if you enjoyed this conversation where we talked about body recomp at maintenance, um, as I mentioned earlier, we recorded a companion episode right now in Jeff's feed the mind muscle connection. Go follow the show, download it, listen to it. That's why we're keeping these a little bit shorter.

Philip Pape: 33:00

Today, where I interviewed Jeff about, or no, where he interviews me, I get confused about using, um, what we're calling a near maintenance approach. So that's more. When you want to step the gas, step on the gas pedal, go maybe a little more aggressive, but still get body recomp, as opposed to necessarily going all out in one direction, and we're going to get deep into that there. So click the link in the show notes or go search the mind muscle connection on your favorite podcast app. Check it out. And Jeff, thanks, as always, man, for collaborating and coming on the show.

Jeff Hoehn: 33:30

Yep, this is super fun dude.

Preserving Muscle on GLP-1 Weight Loss Medications | Ep 308

Get your free 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment to identify your biggest nutrition challenge and get a personalized action plan to optimize your approach, whether you're considering GLP-1s, currently using them, or transitioning off (or go to witsandweights.com and click "Free Nutrition Audit")

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Millions of people are experiencing dramatic weight loss results with GLP-1 medications like Ozempic, Wegovy, and Mounjaro, but there's a catch that many doctors aren't discussing: without the right approach, up to 40% of that weight loss could be coming from muscle, not fat.

This episode gives you a blueprint for maximizing the benefits of these medications while protecting your metabolism, strength, and long-term results. 

Today I'm sharing practical, evidence-based strategies to preserve muscle while maximizing fat loss on these powerful appesite-suppressing medications, including how to adjust your nutrition, training, and lifestyle to maintain those results even after you stop.

Main Takeaways:

• GLP-1 medications aid weight loss primarily through appetite suppression

• Muscle loss isn't caused by the medications but by rapid weight loss without intervention

• Resistance training and sufficient protein intake are non-negotiable for preserving muscle mass

• Plan your transition off medication well in advance with a strategic approach

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Timestamps: 

0:01 - Understanding GLP-1 medications and body composition
6:29 - Protein and nutrition strategies
10:14 - Micronutrients and tracking calories
12:10 - Why resistance training is essential
16:02 - Managing energy levels and strength training
16:47 - Planning for reducing or coming off GLP-1 medications
21:56 - Body recomposition

How to Keep Your Muscle While Using GLP-1 Weight Loss Medications

If you're using GLP-1 medications like Ozempic or Wegovy (or even just considering them), you're probably doing it for fat loss—not to lose muscle and feel weaker. But one of the most under-discussed side effects of these powerful appetite suppressants is that without the right habits, you could lose a lot of lean mass.

We’re talking up to 40% of your weight loss coming from muscle—not fat—if you don’t implement key strategies. And that's not because of the meds themselves. It’s because rapid weight loss, no matter how you get there, can cost you muscle mass when you’re not actively protecting it.

Let’s walk through how to prevent that from happening so you can maximize fat loss, maintain your strength, and transition off the meds without regaining the weight.

The Truth About GLP-1s and Muscle Loss

The headlines make it sound like these drugs are inherently harmful to your muscle tissue. They’re not.

Semaglutide (Ozempic, Wegovy) and tirzepatide (Mounjaro) work by reducing appetite—slowing gastric emptying and acting on hunger centers in the brain. That’s why weight loss outcomes are often more dramatic and sustainable than crash diets or even bariatric surgery.

But that success comes with a catch: lower calorie intake + no training = muscle loss.

In studies like STEP 1 (semaglutide) and SURMOUNT-1 (tirzepatide), up to 40% of weight loss was lean mass. Not because the meds target muscle, but because people weren’t eating enough protein or lifting weights. If you crash diet without those, you'll see similar ratios.

Strategy #1: Prioritize Protein—Even If You’re Not Hungry

A suppressed appetite sounds great until you realize it also means less protein and fewer nutrients.

If you want to preserve muscle:

• Aim for 0.7–1.0 g of protein per pound of goal body weight (e.g., 110–150g/day if you’re aiming for 150 lbs).

• Distribute protein across all meals, starting each meal with your protein source.

• Use liquid protein if needed—protein shakes, Greek yogurt smoothies, bone broth.

• Rotate protein sources if taste aversions kick in (chicken, fish, eggs, tofu, whey, etc.).

• Track your food with an app like MacroFactor to make sure you’re getting enough.

You might not feel like eating, but you can’t skip this step. Your body doesn’t magically hold onto muscle unless you give it a reason to.

Strategy #2: Strength Training Is Not Optional

This is the other half of the equation.

If protein is the raw material, resistance training is the signal that tells your body, “Hey, we need this muscle—don’t burn it for fuel.”

Your plan should include:

• At least 3 full-body workouts per week, minimum 2 if you're brand new.

• Focus on compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, presses, and rows.

• Train with progressive overload, meaning try to lift a little more or do more reps over time.

If you're on a GLP-1 and not lifting, you’re almost guaranteed to lose muscle as you drop pounds. Don’t rely on cardio or random YouTube workouts—resistance training is the intervention that changes your body composition.

Strategy #3: Don’t Go Too Fast

The hunger suppression from GLP-1s can tempt people to undereat a lot. Some users drop to 800–1000 kcal/day without realizing it.

Track your calories and:

• Keep your fat loss rate to 1% of body weight per week or less.

• Stay aware of your energy, recovery, mood, and sleep—biofeedback matters.

• Eat enough to train hard, not just enough to lose weight.

Yes, these meds help you lose weight faster, but faster isn’t always better. It’s about fat loss with muscle retention.

Strategy #4: Supplement Micronutrients You Might Miss

Less food = less opportunity to get essential nutrients. You may need to supplement:

• Multivitamin as a catch-all

• Vitamin D, calcium, magnesium, omega-3s

• Iron (especially for women)

• Any others based on your blood work or symptoms

This becomes even more critical the longer you're eating at a deficit.

Strategy #5: Have a Plan for Coming Off the Meds

This might be the most overlooked part.

Many people regain 2/3 of the weight within a year after stopping GLP-1s—unless they’ve already built the lifestyle to maintain fat loss.

Here’s a smart exit strategy:

1. Raise your calories to maintenance while still on the drug—before stopping.

2. Continue progressive strength training—don’t skip a beat.

3. Taper your dose under medical supervision to avoid appetite rebound.

4. Practice mindful eating and meal planning—structure and awareness matter.

5. Consider a short building phase (slight surplus) after you stop to focus on muscle growth and reframe your relationship with food.

When you do it this way, you avoid the rebound, feel empowered by your new lifestyle, and build a body that doesn’t need the meds anymore.

Final Thoughts

GLP-1 medications can be a powerful tool, but they’re not a standalone solution. If you don’t strength train, track your intake, and prioritize protein, you risk looking and feeling worse—not better—even if the scale says otherwise.

But if you use these meds alongside the right strategies, you can:

• Drop fat rapidly

• Maintain or even build muscle

• Recomp your body in a way most dieters never do

• Transition off the meds with confidence

And if you’re unsure how to make this work for your situation, I offer 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment calls. No pitch. Just clarity. Let’s figure out what your next step should be.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're one of the millions of people using weight loss drugs or thinking about them, you've probably heard about the impressive results on the scale or are experiencing them yourself. But you've also heard that there's a chance for massive muscle loss without the right lifestyle in place. So today I'm going to share with you some practical strategies to preserve muscle while maximizing fat loss on these medications, including how to adjust your nutrition, training and lifestyle, and then, if you choose to, you can maintain those results after you stop. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are talking about how to optimize your lifestyle, nutrition and training when using GLP-1 medications. And this is both if you are considering them or you're currently on them, and, if you're on them, whether you want to continue using them or come off of them. So I'm very open-minded to all the different scenarios here, and this is not at all going to be a judgment on the medications or your choice to use them, but rather how to make the best use of your lifestyle in the process. I want to start by thanking Michael Kay. He's a fellow coach who we've been chatting for a while now. I actually did another episode in response to his sending me a question a while back, but today he sent me an email that helped inspire this episode. Or I should say he sent me the email a while back, working with clients on these medications, which very much reflect what I have seen as well, and he said quote we have a great opportunity to shed light on this subject and keep our clients safe and well informed. And, quote he emphasized the importance of the various lifestyle changes that must be made alongside these medications, and we are going to refer to some research as well. All of this perfectly aligns with what the evidence tells us and is also counter to some of the fear mongering like hey, you're just going to lose a ton of muscle, so why go on these meds? When the reality is you will lose a ton of muscle when you crash diet, whether or not you are on the meds, and so the principles of how to counteract that are going to be the same.

Philip Pape: 2:25

Now, before we get into it, if you are looking for personalized guidance on your approach, whether you are considering GLP-1s or currently using them or you're transitioning off, I've worked with all of these scenarios. We have folks in our Physique University and one-on-one clients who are in these various scenarios and what I do is I offer these free calls. They're called rapid nutrition assessments and it's a 15 minute fast paced call where we identify what is your biggest challenge right now, why? Why are you reaching out for help, and can we come up with two or three specific plans to address it. That's it. No sales pitch, it's just some advice. I'm playing more of those on the podcast. In fact, we're going to have one of those calls coming up soon that I did with Sam. She was a more advanced person, experienced with nutrition and training, wondering if she should build, maintain or lose fat. So you're going to hear that soon. But if you want your own version of that and you want to talk to me on a Zoom call and just get some clarity, click the link in the show notes to schedule that, or go to my website, witsandweightscom, and click the big button for the rapid nutrition assessment, and that could be pretty much just what you're looking for to optimize your approach if you feel like you're stuck.

Philip Pape: 3:34

So I want to talk about the medications, their impact on body composition, first, and then we'll set the stage for what's to come. So we're talking about GLP-1 receptor agonists like semaglutide, which is Ozempic, or Wagovi, or terzepatide, which is Manjaro, and of course, this class of drugs continues to expand and get more potent, and they work mainly by reducing appetite. The way they do that is a little complicated, but effectively they can slow your gastric emptying, they can increase your feelings of fullness, and then they act on brain centers that control hunger, and that's critical, because we know how important brain related genetics are to hunger and appetite and is why so many people struggle with overeating, even when they know that that's the issue, and it's difficult to overcome, and that's often why some people are prescribed these meds. If you then are able to control those mechanisms, you then can have significant calorie reduction without the willpower struggle that many dieters experience, and that is why the results are so impressive. Across the board. We see clinical trials showing average weight losses of 15 to 20% of total body weight in about 68 to 72 weeks. So it's fairly aggressive and way more effective than previous weight loss medications and, like bariatric surgery outcomes, things like that and the numbers are even higher for some of the more advanced, like terzapatide, is higher than semaglutide, and there are new classes of drugs as well, and it's effectively like doing a very rapid or aggressive diet on your own, but people tend to be able to stick with it and see it through because of the reduction in hunger and so on.

Philip Pape: 5:14

Now, what's important to understand about body composition? Okay, there was a step one trial for semaglutide where researchers found that 40% of the weight lost was lean tissue. Right, lean tissue includes is your lean mass and includes muscle. It technically includes bone and water as well, but the vast majority of this is what we're talking about is muscle tissue. And there was a similar finding in the Sermount 1 trial for terzepatide.

Philip Pape: 5:40

Now, that does not mean these medications cause muscle loss. Very important to understand. Instead, it is just a natural consequence of rapid weight loss without doing something to preserve muscle. Very important Because, if we put this in perspective right, when you're not on these medications typical weight loss that we see with just your normal dieting approach a calorie deficit may also include some muscle loss. In fact, the average person losing weight without trying to hold on to muscle might lose 25 to 30% of their weight as muscle, right. So the main reason the percentage is a bit higher with GLP-1s is the rapid rate of the weight reduction. That's really all it is. If you did this on your own and lost weight that quickly, you're also going to experience a 30 or 40% loss as muscle.

Philip Pape: 6:29

So the point isn't to be fearful or alarmed here, but understand this and then be strategic about it, just as we would implement specific strategies for any weight loss approach. And, in fact, if you're listening and you have no desire at all or need to go on these meds, principles we talk about today are still valuable to you, and so we want to have these targeted interventions, and it would be awesome if everyone on these drugs everyone on these drugs had to be in a sort of patient-centered approach that had nutrition and lifestyle and training built in, like you had to do those things, but the real world and healthcare doesn't necessarily work that way. So hopefully you're listening to this podcast and getting the power to do this on your own. So I want to talk now about protein and nutrition, and then we'll talk about other lifestyle factors, especially strength training, of course. So the first, I guess, intervention for preserving muscle here is optimizing your protein intake, and I start here because for most people, this is going to be, I'll say, an easier play, in that we all eat food already.

Philip Pape: 7:28

You're already thinking in terms of weight loss and what goes in your mouth, and there are some things that make it a little more challenging on these medications because a lot of people experience reduced obviously reduced appetite, appetite overall, but sometimes an aversion to protein rich foods. Others have an aversion to fat rich foods, right Like processed foods, which isn't the worst thing in the world when you just don't like to eat those things. But when it's protein rich and you all of a sudden like kind of like a pregnant woman, all of a sudden like craves or hates a certain food, I've had clients tell me they suddenly can't stand the taste of chicken or eggs or something that they enjoyed and and, and we have to understand that. So you have to be more deliberate and strategic about getting your protein. So, based on the research I've talked about this many times before I recommend aiming for 0.7 to one gram per pound of body weight per day. So if your goal weight is and again, this is goal weight, ideal weight, whatever you want to call it and if you're on these drugs, you're probably trying to lose weight. So if your goal weight is like 150 pounds, then that's say 110 to 150 grams of protein a day, and this is not a bodybuilder level protein intake. This is very solid amount, shown in research, to preserve muscle mass. When you are in significant calorie reduction because we have to make that assumption when you are in significant calorie reduction because we have to make that assumption I'm going to assume on GLP-1s, that you're going to be going at a rapid rate of loss. However, however, we want to make sure that loss is controlled and we're actually eating enough food to prevent it going so fast that we still lose muscle even despite these interventions.

Philip Pape: 8:59

But anyway, back to protein. All right, simple strategies If you have protein at every meal. Back to protein. All right, simple strategies If you have protein at every meal. Prioritize protein at every meal. Start with protein before moving on to other foods, because not only do you want to have the protein, you want to get ahead of your hunger signals that are less than someone else would have, and it ensures that you get the protein before you fill up.

Philip Pape: 9:19

Um, the second thing is, if you need liquid sources of protein, like protein shakes or Greek yogurt smoothies, right, it could still be whole food, like Greek yogurt, where you're smoothing, you're blending it, uh, even bone broth, like it's got to have a decent amount of protein, though, and it can sometimes be easier to consume. And then you want to distribute protein throughout the day, and this is not because science says that's so much better for building muscle. It's mainly to, um again, be able to get it all in right and not feel too stuffed or too full, and and there might be a tiny optimal advantage for muscle building, but I'm not asking you to do that for that reason. Uh, and then the next thing is, of course, you know, if you have an aversion to a specific source of protein, like chicken. You got so many other options. You've got fish, shrimp, dairy eggs, plant-based options, you've got tofu, tempeh, all of that. Just make sure you get enough, right. Just make sure you get enough. There's also whey protein versus pea and rice protein if you need to supplement.

Philip Pape: 10:14

So the other thing that happens beyond protein is, of course, your nutrients, and I don't mean nutrition like your food, but your actual nutrient, micronutrient sufficiency, because when you're losing weight rapidly and you're not taking up in as much food or calories, you're then reducing your intake of essential vitamins and minerals, and so you may need to supplement more than you would in the past and you may lead to a deficiency if you don't right. And so what are we talking about? Well, I like multivitamins as a catch-all vitamin D if you need it, calcium if you need it, omega-3 supplements, magnesium, for sure. But you may have other needs. Vitamin C, you know, you may have other needs, that, even iron, sometimes for women, but again, that's between you and your medical practitioner, based on your specific needs, based on your history. And then I alluded to this already but you've got to be mindful of your actual calorie intake.

Philip Pape: 11:05

If anyone's taking GLP-1s and not tracking their food, I think they're doing themselves a disservice, because you're going to have significantly reduced appetite and could potentially eat way too little. Yeah, you're losing weight Great. But you're also going to lose muscle and you're going to have additional nutrient deficiencies. You're going to be low on energy. It's going to be this kind of vicious cycle. It's not going to feel great.

Philip Pape: 11:27

So, actually, you know, determining your appropriate calorie target, which, in my opinion, would be no more, no more than 1% of your body weight a week maximum. Okay, for most people that are not on these drugs, a half a percent is usually reasonable, maybe 0.75. When you're on the drug because you have so much less appetite, you end up going more aggressively, but sometimes too extreme. So track it. Use Macrofactor. Use my code Wits and Weights to get two weeks free. Try it out. Link in the show notes. Use Macrofactor and track your food so that you know how much you're eating and how much you should be eating to continue at that rate. By the way, that's the only app that will do that for you, because it can calculate your metabolism and tell you true calorie targets for you.

Philip Pape: 12:10

All right, so if protein is the foundation of preserving muscle from a food perspective, then resistance training is what actually makes that possible. So listen up, I could have put this as number one, but I wanted to start with the food side, because it's very unique to these meds. But resistance training has been clearly demonstrated time and again as the most effective intervention to maintain muscle mass during weight loss and then when you're not losing weight. Of course, it's how you build muscle, and this becomes even more critical when using these meds, mainly because the meds get you to go at a more extreme rate of loss, like we've talked about, but not too extreme, right, okay. So in practical terms what this looks like is probably a minimum of two, but ideally three strength training sessions per week, potentially four once you get into it and you're like, hey, this is a lot of fun, I'm getting strong, et cetera, but three days a week, full body, mainly compound lifts and use progressive overload.

Philip Pape: 13:10

Now we're not going to get into great detail on how to do all that in today's episode. If you're not sure what I'm talking about. I've got plenty of episodes on this. I did one recently called strength versus hypertrophy. I think it's going to be a classic. It's a really good overview of this, of all the principles, and then from there you can branch off into other episodes or reach out to me.

Philip Pape: 13:27

But I think the most effective approach, just at a high level, includes compound movements that engage multiple muscle groups. So we're talking about squats or, if you can't do squats, leg presses for your lower body, deadlifts for your hamstrings and back and posterior chain, bench presses for your chest, for your triceps, overhead presses for your shoulders, and then like rows or pull downs for your back, for your biceps, things like that, and then you could throw other fun stuff in there if you've got the time and inclination. But for those new to resistance training, I think a very simple three-day full body using these basic lifts is super solid, something like starting strength. We've got workouts in our Physique University that will get you started and then you can move up into more intermediate programs. Definitely, working with a coach is super recommended early on, even if it's just a few sessions to get your form dialed in. Or again, if you're working with us or in our Physique University, you can submit videos anytime for free as part of the program and get a form check and you're going to get where you need to be.

Philip Pape: 14:29

You're going to get stronger, you're going to build muscle and then, if you're on these drugs, what this will look like is maintaining all that muscle so that you prioritize fat loss. That is how you lose fat. It's not cardio right. It's not cardio ever. It's not cardio right. It's not cardio ever. It's lifting weights, building muscle, holding onto that muscle so that you lose fat, and so that's how we improve our body composition and you don't get skinny fat, frumpy, weak, low energy, all of that.

Philip Pape: 14:55

Speaking of energy, energy can sometimes be quite a bit lower while you're on GLP-1 meds because of the lower calorie intake, especially if you're going more aggressively. So it's kind of ironic not ironic, but like you've got this ability to eat less because your appetite's less, but then there are other negative consequences if you do it too aggressively. So many of my clients who are on these drugs, I still don't want them to go at the full level of aggressiveness because of the negatives to their other biofeedback, like their energy, like their recovery, their sleep, their stress, all of that stuff. So you want to have realistic expectations around your workout intensity, right your training intensity, because it could be compromised a bit if you're going really aggressively and you don't have much energy. And so I really focus on consistency right, getting to the gym three days a week and doing the program and trying to progress right. You're not necessarily going to chase all time maximum personal records, but if you're listening to this podcast and you're not and this is all new to you anyway you're probably going to have some growth regardless. Just get in the gym three days a week and do it, do the training right, focus on slowly progressing and do the training.

Philip Pape: 16:02

The timing can also help, depending on your injections. So this is specific to the meds. Some clients find that training shortly after their injection, when appetite is most suppressed, actually allows them to maintain their energy level, but others prefer training right before their injection or their meal, when energy might be slightly higher. Right, so it's very personalized, but you need to track this stuff and figure it out. Um, and then you you don't need to be a power lifter, a bodybuilder, whatever. It's just moderate resistance training with barbells, maybe dumbbells and machines, depending on what you have access to is going to give you massive, significant benefits compared to just not doing it. You've got to train, you've got to resistance train and then do it for the rest of your life. There's so many benefits to that.

Philip Pape: 16:47

We're not they're outside the scope of today's episode, but I have plenty of other episodes that get into that and then I think the final piece of the puzzle here is planning for what happens when I'll say if and when you decide to reduce or discontinue GLP-1 therapy and I say it in that subtle way because some people might feel like they want to stay on it for a while. They're asked by their doctor to do so. There could be metabolic or health reasons for doing so. Maybe you've come off of them and found that it's very difficult for you to continue maintaining your habits even when you've done everything right, and it's just your brain and your genetics are that way. Again, I'm not here to judge.

Philip Pape: 17:29

A lot of folks, though, want to try and then eventually get off of the drugs and discontinue them, and they understand that this is a lifelong thing, that we need to do this the right way and set yourself up for success, because the research is clear that weight regain is very common after stopping these meds. In the Step 1 Extension Study, participants regained two-thirds of their lost weight within a year after discontinuation. But guess what? This does not have to be your outcome. It's also a very typical outcome, even when people are not on these drugs and go through weight loss, and I think that's actually an empowering statement I just said, because what it means is it's not really the drugs, it's the fact that the drugs allow you to have a calorie deficit, and then the lifestyle is not in place at the same time to allow you to come off the drugs and maintain it, just like somebody who's not on these drugs loses weight the wrong way and loses muscle and then regains their weight that way, it's the same thing really. So the wrong way and loses muscle and then regains their weight. That way, it's the same thing really. So if you can plan properly, you can maintain your results, and this planning begins months before you stop the medication.

Philip Pape: 18:30

So here is my approach to this. I've done this with clients. It works really well. I can refer you to individuals who've done this. It works okay.

Philip Pape: 18:40

The first thing you're going to do is gradually transition to maintenance calories. You're coming out of a deficit. You're increasing your calories to maintenance while you're still on the medication, and this gives your body time to adapt to higher food intake while the appetite suppressing effects are still present, with the caveat that you might want to reduce the dose. So you do this in conjunction with your doctor and you talk to them and you say, hey, I've been working with Philip, where I've been listening to his podcast, I've been training, I've been tracking my food, I've been eating plenty of protein. Right, I'm active, I'm an athletic fitness lifestyle individual, not like I was before, when I first came to you, doc, but now I am, I've got my lifestyle in place and I want to eventually get off these drugs. So maybe I'm going to titrate down by a fraction of the dose while you then increase the calories, all right.

Philip Pape: 19:35

The second thing is and this should go without saying, but I want you to make sure that your resistance training program, by this point, is consistent and progressive, because by the time you start tapering off the meds, this is going to be like a well-established habit. It's just part of your lifestyle. Strength training above all, okay. Third, I want you to learn and practice mindful eating strategies while you're on the meds, that you're just going to continue, mindful eating strategies while you're on the meds, that you're just going to continue. And that could be a number of things that could be simply eating slowly, you know, uh, planning your meals in advance, meal prep, meal planning To me, that is a form of mindfulness as well. It could be, you know, learning to estimate your foods visually so you you eat reasonable portions, balancing your macros right. That's what I mean by mindful, not just the you know, put your fork down between each bite type of thing, but more of the mindfulness of the eating and the mindfulness of the planning, prep, logging, tracking, all of it, all right. And then I want you to connect. So this is number four I want you to consider a gradual tapering strategy. So I already alluded to this when I talked about going to maintenance.

Philip Pape: 20:42

But people have success tapering. This is true of most things not all, but most types of dosing approaches where your healthcare provider can help design this for you so your body adjusts to the changing appetite signal because it is fairly proportional to the medication, right? And so that way you don't just get a sudden rebound and all of a sudden feel like you're starving and you could eat anything. So for most of my clients, I'm gonna transition, or I'm going to recommend transitioning, not just to maintenance but actually slowly toward a slight caloric surplus that coincides with the tapering process and gets you into a really a building growth, a high energy state of thinking right, where you are now setting up structure and control about your eating, even when you're eating more enough to slightly gain weight. And it's a very different way to live than the reason you gained weight before, where it was uncontrolled, you couldn't control your appetite signals or whatever. Now we're going to direct your increasing appetite toward muscle growth rather than fat storage and towards something that benefits you right, and that's a beautiful thing in my opinion.

Philip Pape: 21:56

So it's really about having a plan before you stop. I don't want you to just discontinue it and have no strategy and then, even worse, not having done any of these things to begin with. Anyway, right, you put the lifestyle in place, the training, the protein, the tracking very simple, right, just the simple pillars. Yeah, you can get increase your step count. Yes, you should focus on sleep and stress. All that's great.

Philip Pape: 22:16

But the big ones are really training, protein, tracking, right, consistency, controlling your mindfulness or having a mindful approach to not only eating but planning, prep and so on, and then tapering your dose down as you bring the calories up and potentially bring the calories even more up, past maintenance to a slight building phase, and it all just lines up really well. After that you can see how you feel, not being on the meds, eating plenty of food, building growth. It should help manage the hunger really well at that point, because most people who are gaining weight to build muscle actually don't have much hunger. When they do, it's because they do need to eat more food, but it kind of mentally frees your brain from even having food noise because you don't get the hunger and you're off the medication, and it creates a nice positive association with food. Then, after you build muscle for, let's say, six months now you can go potentially into maintenance or another fat loss phase without the medications and that's like your next phase of your overall approach that you can experiment with. That's well beyond the scope of today's episode.

Philip Pape: 23:20

So what's really cool about these medications is they present a unique opportunity for body recomp. That isn't possible when you're not in the meds. And I'm not telling everyone to go out and get your injections. What I'm saying is is if you're on these medications, because they so effectively manage hunger, they can create an environment where you can be in a calorie deficit without the hunger or even brutal hunger, depending on how you've done it that normally accompanies significant weight loss. Right, most people, when you're on these drugs, are not going to really be able to push at that 1% for very long, but when you're on the drugs, you kind of can.

Philip Pape: 23:56

I mean, I've had clients who are like yep, I'm not hungry, yep, I'm not hungry, and here we are in this like pretty significant deficit. So then you can get some substantial fat loss in a short amount of time while preserving your muscle. If you do it with lifestyle, you've got to have the meds with the lifestyle, okay. And I've had clients who've got amazing body composition transformations, who were on the meds initially just to lose weight. We got them actually thinking in terms of fat loss and body comp training and nutrition and it helped them do it. I'll say faster, true, faster. Yeah. Let's just not beat around the bush, because they didn't have the hunger, but we didn't want to go so fast that it'd affect them in other ways and they got it over fairly quickly. So you know we're talking 40, 50, maybe 60 pounds of fat over. I don't know what are we saying? A nine, 12 month period. I may have the numbers off. We don't want to go past 1% a week, but some clients come in and start there. You know they're 350 pounds, right, so it's all relative Um, and then they'll actually gain some lean mass in the process. So actually get some recomp, which is totally possible when you have a lot of weight to lose.

Philip Pape: 25:01

And for many people that seems like an impossible thing to do without the appetite management benefits of the meds. And that's why I am very open-minded to what you need as an individual, even though I'm not out there being like, yeah, come, take these drugs and then join my program. It's not like that, it's hey, I want to help you do what you want to do with the drugs or without them. Okay, the I want to help you do what you want to do with the drugs or without them. Okay, the medications are not magic pills, although some would argue they're pretty close. The problem is they're. The magic that they do cause is misleading, because weight loss by itself isn't going to get you what you want to be. You want to have fat loss. So if you pair it with lifestyle, that's where you're going to get the great results. And then the habits and the muscle that you build during the process that becomes your foundation for the new you that doesn't need these meds anymore. Potentially, right, potentially. Again, I don't want to make anyone feel guilty Like, hey, I tried all this, I came off the meds. I felt like I couldn't control my appetite.

Philip Pape: 25:55

There may be deeper or more genetically linked challenges for certain people. So main takeaways here GLP-1 meds are powerful tools to lose weight, but they work best when combined with lifestyle to optimize fat loss, body composition, holding onto muscle right. Otherwise you can lose up to 40% of your body mass as muscle. Number two you want to prioritize protein of 0.7 to one gram per pound of your goal body weight, even when you don't feel like you can eat it. And that's where you have to get creative. How do you get it in liquids, different timing, et cetera. Number three resistance training has to be a non-negotiable part of your routine. Resistance training, not just a YouTube workout, right? Not just randomly going to the gym, but actually training with progressive overload to signal to your body that muscles should be preserved. Number I think I'm on number four here.

Philip Pape: 26:44

You want to plan for transitioning to a lower or off of the medication well in advance. Come up with a plan to do it. Reach out to me, work with your medical practitioner. Now doctors, in my opinion, most of them don't understand, don't understand building muscle, losing fat, body composition, energy balance they really just don't. They don't have much training and nutrition in lifting. Some do right, more do now than in the past but many don't. And so, unless you have a really good feeling for that being the case with your practitioner, reach out to me, listen to the show, join us in Physique University. We'll help you do that. And so it's a strategic approach, right, where these meds are just objective tools to help with the appetite. They're catalysts, and if you do all the other things that's going to set you up sustainably for the rest of your life, all right. So I hope that clarified your approach to these meds.

Philip Pape: 27:35

Whether you're thinking about them, you're on them. You want to come off them. You're unsure about the best strategy for a situation? I off them. You're unsure about the best strategy for a situation. I'm not offering medical advice. I'm not recommending them one way or the other. I'm just trying to help you navigate them, if that's in your realm. So, if you want to talk about it, I offer a free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment. Again, during this Zoom call, which is not a sales pitch at all, we're going to identify your biggest challenge right now and create a plan to address it. And if you want to talk through these meds maybe you're on them. You want to know what's my plan to get off? We can talk about that. Just some advice that you can implement, starting right now. Click the link in the show notes to schedule it or go to witsandweightscom and until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights. And remember it's not about losing weight, it's creating a strong, healthy body that you deserve. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

How Women Can Build More Muscle and Gym Confidence (Holly Baxter) | Ep 307

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Are you putting in the work, but muscle growth feels impossible?  Are you secretly blaming hormones, age, or your DNA? What if your struggle isn't about effort but about your approach?

I interview Holly Baxter, world champion bodybuilder and registered dietitian to cut through the misinformation and reveal the real strategies you need. Forget the hours in the gym and obsessive calorie counting. We'll uncover why women often plateau, the truth about hormonal changes, and how to optimize your training for maximum impact with limited time.

Holly Baxter is a two-time world champion natural bodybuilder, IFBB Bikini Pro, and accredited practicing dietitian with over 13 years of experience. She’s the founder of Be A Fit, a training and nutrition app designed to support women with evidence-based programs and macro-friendly recipes. Holly is known for her honest, science-first approach to helping women transform their physiques and relationship with food.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

03:18 - Fear of bulking, disordered eating, and the identity trap
07:24 - The differences in how women build muscle
11:47 - Menopause and muscle-building
21:33 - Smart training approaches for older or less confident lifters
26:25 - Is periodization necessary for hypertrophy?
33:39 - How your training phase affects your results
41:14 - Top 3 principles for your first serious build
47:09 - What to track during a long-term building phase
53:57 - Minimum effective dose training for hypertrophy
57:40 - Inside Holly’s new fitness app, Be A Fit
59:05 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Holly’s App: BiaFit

• YouTube: @HollyTBaxter

• Instagram: @hollytbaxter 

• Related Episode: 10 Reasons Muscle Burns Even More Calories Than You Think (Thermal Mass) | Ep 291

Why Building Muscle Feels So Hard for Women

Here’s the truth: most women are ready to jump into fat loss. It feels familiar, it's what the industry pushes, and the results can feel quicker. But building muscle? That’s the part most skip or under-commit to. And that’s a problem—because without muscle, fat loss just makes you a smaller version of the same shape. If you want curves, definition, and real physical change, muscle-building has to be a priority.

But that means facing fears—of gaining weight, of losing control, or of not looking your best every single day. This isn’t about willpower or effort. It’s about confidence, body image, and a lack of education around female physiology.

The Truth About Women’s Physiology and Muscle Growth

Despite all the myths out there, women can build muscle at the same relative rate as men. Yes, men typically have more muscle mass to begin with, especially in the upper body. But when it comes to percentage growth from resistance training, the research shows that women respond just as well.

Some advantages may even lean in your favor. For example, women tend to have better fatigue resistance and blood flow to working muscles, which can make short rest periods and higher-rep training more effective. That’s great news if you’re busy and can’t always do 90-minute sessions in the gym.

Building Confidence and Strength—Efficiently

Training smarter, not longer

You don’t need to live in the gym to see results. Even training three to four times a week for 60 minutes can lead to serious physique changes, especially when your workouts are focused and tailored to your current ability and goals.

If you’re a beginner, 10–15 hard sets per muscle group per week is often enough to see progress. Intermediate to advanced? You might need closer to 20–30 sets for your priority muscle groups (like glutes or shoulders), but you don’t have to hit everything at once. Rotate focus as needed. Use shorter rest periods. Choose exercises that target multiple areas (think leg press vs. leg extension). Efficiency is the name of the game.

Try low-load, high-rep training

Low-load training (think lighter weights, higher reps taken to failure) is one of the best ways to build muscle while minimizing joint stress. It’s especially effective for women who are new to lifting or are returning after a break. Research shows it works just as well as traditional strength training—as long as you're training close to failure.

Approaches like myo-reps and blood flow restriction (BFR) training can also boost intensity without requiring heavy loads. More importantly, they build confidence—because getting stronger is one of the fastest ways to change how you see yourself.

Adjusting Your Nutrition to Match Your Phase

Muscle growth requires energy. If you’re constantly in a deficit, you’re limiting your ability to train hard and recover—especially if you're already lean. And no, you don’t need to bulk aggressively or put on a ton of weight. Most women can build muscle effectively at maintenance or with a small surplus, especially if they’re above ~25% body fat.

The key is consistency, protein intake, and matching your nutrition to your current phase:

• During a build: prioritize calories, protein (at least 0.7–1g/lb of body weight), and recovery.

• During a cut: understand that progress in strength or volume may slow. You may need to dial back volume, increase recovery time, and focus on maintaining as much muscle as possible.

• At maintenance: this is where many women can recomposition—lose fat and build muscle slowly if the training and diet are dialed in.

Recovery, Confidence, and Realistic Progress

One of the biggest game changers? Accepting that muscle growth is slow—and that’s okay. We're talking millimeters of change in a matter of months. You won’t see it overnight, and you definitely won’t see it through the layer of body fat that often comes with a building phase. But the long-term return is huge.

Use performance goals, data, and tracking as your motivation:

• Track key lifts over time (and celebrate strength gains).

• Use wearable devices to monitor changes in workout energy output.

• Track protein and fiber intake to stay consistent.

• Monitor your steps and movement patterns to explain weight changes.

And above all, track how you feel—your confidence, your consistency, your energy.

The Real Goal: A Stronger, More Capable You

It’s not just about building muscle. It’s about transforming how you see yourself. When you stop identifying progress with being lean or perfect and start seeing it in your skills, strength, and mindset, everything changes. Your body follows your behavior—and your belief in what’s possible.

If you’re tired of spinning your wheels in the gym, consider doing the opposite of what the fitness industry says: eat more, train hard, stop chasing fat loss 24/7, and trust the long game.

Because the real win isn’t in doing more. It’s in doing the right things for you—consistently, confidently, and sustainably.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a woman who's been grinding away at the gym for months or even years with minimal muscle growth to show for it, you might be wondering if it's your genetics, age or even hormones. You've tried increasing protein, lifting heavier and following programs designed by top coaches, yet the results remain frustratingly slow. What if I told you the problem isn't your effort or your genetics, but rather the training principles themselves? Today, world champion bodybuilder and nutrition expert Holly Baxter joins me to reveal the science-backed strategies that actually work for women's unique muscle building needs. You'll discover why the fitness industry is confusing all of us, the real truth about hormones and muscle growth and how to break through those stubborn plateaus, even with less time in the gym. Listen up if you want to finally build that strong, aesthetic physique you've been wanting.

Philip Pape: 0:56

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we get into the science of optimizing training for women with the incredible Holly Baxter. Holly is an accredited practicing dietitian with over 13 years of experience in nutrition and training. She's a two-time world champion in the natural fitness division, ifbb Bikini Pro. Author, educator and creator of Be A Fit, an innovative new fitness app with lots of science-backed workout programs and hundreds of macro-friendly recipes. And today you're gonna learn about training strategies that work specifically with the female physiology, the truth about things like hormones, muscle development, how to avoid mistakes that keep women from achieving their muscle building goals. From the very best who's done it herself and worked with lots of women like you. We're going to get into recovery tracking, nutrition and more. Holly, it is so good to have you on the show.

Holly Baxter: 1:55

Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Philip Pape: 1:58

So let's just jump right into it. You know a lot of women are trying to build muscle, trying to develop the physique. But a lot of women are trying to build muscle, trying to develop the physique. They might see you on social media, follow you, and perhaps they've been doing some of the right things. Let's say, maybe they've gotten some of their habits dialed in. They listen to this show, they follow you, they know some of the basics of training and nutrition. Even then, what would you say is the biggest factor that holds most?

Holly Baxter: 2:24

women back from their muscle building potential. Oh, I think this is a very clear, distinct winner. I would say their inability or unwillingness to commit to a muscle building phase.

Philip Pape: 2:35

Okay, that's a good one.

Holly Baxter: 2:36

I think most women tend to be ready to go in terms of fat loss, which I can fully, you know, can go and I get behind. I think you know there's a time and a place for that, but to their own detriment. I think a lot of folks will pursue fat loss over the extremely important muscle building phase that's going to allow them to actually make progress, you know, in the future.

Philip Pape: 2:57

Yeah. So that's good because I know you probably talk about fat loss a lot. It comes up and nutrition and we talk people's ears off about that. But I've tried to get that message out and I feel like someone yourself, being a woman having a certain experience in the past I know gone through disordered eating and you know the whole physique competition journey that you can very much relate to the fears as to why they don't want to do that. You know, is it really the gaining weight and the getting bulky? Is there something deeper than that? What is your thought on that?

Holly Baxter: 3:28

I think there's unfortunately just low confidence and a lot of negative body image. You know, for a lot of females that I work with and I think, because I've been so open and just transparent about my experiences over the last decade, you know, in the bodybuilding sphere, I think people have felt a little bit more comfortable kind of opening up and sharing their own struggles, and I mean it's been a really long and challenging journey for me too. I'd say I wouldn't have been able to work through that myself without professional help. So, speaking to my eating disorders, so I'd say from about age 15 through to age 25, I struggled with an eating disorder. I had bulimia and binge eating disorder and I think for the longest time I spent all my efforts, all my mental energy, all my physical energy, like doing the things that I was really good at, which was training like a Trojan and putting in the work like in a physical sense. But I kind of lacked accountability and didn't the work like in a physical sense. But I kind of lacked accountability and didn't take any responsibility for my psychological state and I think that I just assumed that I could outwork it and you know it was a sad and false reality that I carried, and it wasn't really until I started working with a psychologist to kind of work through that and, you know, provide some pushback and challenge that negative narrative that I held for myself, did I then finally start to make progress in a healthy way. So I think that women do need to take some responsibility in improving how they view themselves, and it is a really huge obstacle to overcome.

Holly Baxter: 5:00

But I think if you're intentional about it, if you do the work, if you do the reading and find somebody that you know can support you through that, there is a wonderful existence on the other side that still affords you to make, you know, improvements to your body composition, but you also still feel so much better about yourself as a person.

Holly Baxter: 5:18

You know, I think I used to, you know, put so much value and weight into physical appearances and I never, you know, put so much value and weight into physical appearances and I never, you know, gave myself enough credit for the other qualities and characteristics that just make me a good person until I started focusing on those things and really shifting my perspective about how I viewed myself. I was in the same boat, but I think that's a really important component of getting to where you want to be with your physical body, but I also think, lack of knowledge and understanding about how our bodies and our biology works. So I think, through you know, lack of nutrition, education and understanding. That, too, is also another big thing that holds a lot of people back in making progress. And there is so much misinformation available on social media. I think it's really a hard time to know what's truthful and what's, you know, complete nonsense. So you know, finding the right professionals to kind of help you navigate through that is a critical piece in this too.

Philip Pape: 6:21

I totally agree. I mean, that's why I started this podcast, following individuals like you and trying to learn as much as possible and know that physiology is, there's science to it and there's experience and anecdote as well. But at the end of the day, you also have to discover what works for you individually based on that, and it is a whole process. I love how you said a wonderful existence on the other side, you know, hitting right into identity, and you said you know the qualities that make you a good person. That hits part of me as well, because you could get so hung up in the outcome and the physical side that you don't address the psychology, which then makes the outcome very much easier to attain, almost like a side bonus.

Philip Pape: 7:02

You know, unless you're talking about physique competition where you have to really dial it up to that next level. So we're talking about women, but like and I'm a man, so enlighten me here but are there differences that we really do need to pay attention to versus those we don't? And what I mean by that is there's principles, right, there are training principles, there's nutrition principles, physiology that is kind of the same no matter who you are, and it has to be individualized regardless. What would you say for women specifically? Are the things that they need to pay attention to beyond that, that makes sense.

Holly Baxter: 7:34

Yeah, so I think in terms of like muscle, like physiology and muscle growth, I actually have an entire chapter on sex differences in my book actually, which talks and plays into this, probably a lot more in depth than what I will cover today. But I think first and foremost we do need to identify that there are some baseline physiological differences between men and women. So men do tend to have a greater total amount of skeletal muscle mass compared to women, and that has been observed in a number of different research studies. So one that springs to mind was by Albey and colleagues, and I think there's another one by Gallagher and colleagues, and they used a combination of DEXA and MRI, which MRI is the gold standard for measuring muscle cross-sectional area. So in those research investigations it does clearly show that men have more skeletal muscle, but it tends to be disproportionately greater in the upper body. So men will have somewhere between 30 to 60% more muscle in their upper body compared to women. But if we then look at the female's physique, we tend to carry a greater amount of our muscle mass thankfully, in my opinion, in our lower bodies, and you know that kind of checks out amount of our muscle mass, thankfully, in my opinion in our lower bodies and you know that kind of checks out I think you know I can observe that in myself. I'm sure we observe that in ourselves and the clients that we work with. So to me that doesn't really come as any kind of surprise. But you know, does that actually interfere or have any influence on our ability to build muscle? No, and there doesn't really seem to be any differences in response to different training stimulus either, you know, between men and women, which is great. We're kind of all on an even playing field.

Holly Baxter: 9:15

So if we take a look at, like some of the research generally, what we would expect to see in terms of like muscle growth adaptations in response to, like a resistance training program and usually most of the studies that we look at are somewhere between eight to 12 weeks in duration and the norm or the average change in muscle thickness as measured by what's usually B-mode ultrasound. That's one that's most commonly used in exercise science because it's a little bit more affordable. It's a lot more difficult to get your hands on an MRI and the cost goes up astronomically with those types of measurement tools. But 0.2 to 0.3 centimetres would be a typical like muscle thickness increase over that timeframe Now as a percentage or relative change we might anticipate, you know, muscle growth being somewhere in the realm of like 6 to to 10% over that time frame. Now if we were to look at males' data, we might see males increasing by 0.4, say, of a centimeter, so we're doing 4 millimeters over that time span, whereas a female you might see a response of 0.2, for instance. But if we look at that relative change or that percentage increase in muscle thickness, they're not statistically different, they're basically the same. So that's great. It means that regardless of whether you're a man or a woman, if you do your resistance training, if you train hard, we all have the same potential to build muscle.

Holly Baxter: 10:44

But there is one area that I will say women might actually have a slight advantage, and I say might for a couple of reasons. So a lot of the research that looks at this particular outcome has been done in isometric exercise, which is basically where you contract your muscle and you go to failure or to exhaustion, but you're not taking it through a full range of motion. So that type of training, what we would typically do in the gym, is called isotonic training. So in this isometric literature it does seem to indicate that women might be slightly more fatigue resistance resistance rather and that might be in part due to, like, our hormonal differences. So women tend to have more estrogen than males and that can help with vasodilation and nutrient delivery. But women also tend to have more capillarization too. So I guess the benefits for that would mean that women have slightly better muscle perfusion, which is essentially better blood flow delivery to our muscle and therefore also better clearance of some of those metabolic byproducts that accumulate within our muscle when we do a working set. So I guess the benefits with having more capillarization and maybe more, you know, more estrogen than our male counterparts is that we probably have.

Holly Baxter: 12:07

And again, this is not consistent in the isotonic research, but it is consistent in the isometric research is that we might be better at recovering between sets and thus we might also be better at responding to short rest periods. And I think this is really important because I know so many of us ladies are always extremely busy, are always rushed, and you want to be able to do something efficiently. So potentially being able to call upon short rest periods for resistance training, or at least be able to do it better than males again, in some studies might actually be a bit of an advantage. So, short of those things, there aren't really any other differences that I can think of. From a biological standpoint, that would mean women don't have the same potential to build muscle as men.

Holly Baxter: 13:02

And before I forget, there is one another area as well. I remember seeing a paper I think it was by Weston colleagues Don't quote me on the year, but it was a few years ago and they were looking at muscle protein synthetic response rates in response to, like an acute resistance training session and despite some pretty significant differences in their hormone levels after that bout of exercise I think they were looking at testosterone and a handful of others. There were some appreciable differences in testosterone response but despite those hormonal differences between the men and the females in this study, the muscle protein synthesis was actually very similar. It remained elevated between men and women. So I think this is all really good news.

Philip Pape: 13:48

Yeah, and that last one. It just makes you realize how complex physiology is. Right. You can't simplify to just testosterone if one sex has just leagues more of this particular hormone and it doesn't make a difference Incredible. So just to recap, women have a lower baseline muscle mass, which makes sense. We know that women have higher body fat and there's biological reasons for that, but can build at the same rate and ostensibly forever. Right, there's really no age limit. You keep building muscle. And then the fatigue resistant aspect. That is fascinating. I know what you're talking about, where we kind of don't know and there's several mechanisms we're trying to understand. But the idea that you could have more efficient workouts is cool. What about the recovery between sessions? Is that affected as well, for like volume and frequency?

Holly Baxter: 14:34

I probably haven't done as much reading in that area specifically, but I mean, if I were to speculate, I think there's probably always going to be like a certain amount of recoverable training volume and I think that we can probably adapt to increasing training volumes over time too. So you know, when someone's first starting out, if they're a beginner, I would have to speculate that initially if you did a certain amount of training volume you'd probably find that you didn't recover very well from that that stimulus. But the more you do it there's that general adaptation, neurological adaptations you're better able to handle that volume moving forward. Sorry, I don't know that. I've seen any specific studies that compare training response or recovery times. But yeah, I honestly don't know the answer to that.

Philip Pape: 15:26

How much do we know, holly, other than just get in the gym train and figure it out? But yes, it's funny because volume and intensity get a lot of play, and especially on the podcast, and there's a lot of confusion. And even from personal experience, I just did a what would you what you would call a volume based program, where you're progressing to build your base with lots and lots of sets, but highly submaximal. So there's multiple training variables involved and that's where it gets confusing. More volume could be recovered, more recoverable than less, if you're at a like a lower load, for example. That's just what comes to mind.

Philip Pape: 15:58

What about peri and post menopause? A very hot niche in like marketing and the fitness industry and like go other than the Ozepic crowd, right, uh, the the GLP one crowd, it's, you know so many. I don't want to say excuses, but like a lot of the marketing is around. Everything is changing your life now because of the hormonal differences and so you've got to have specific training. You got a specific diet, specific this. What are your thoughts on that in general? But then where are the legitimate changes? Where a woman who you know her estrogen has dropped, her gesturons dropped, she needs to consider the changes that come along with that.

Holly Baxter: 16:31

Yeah, I think I'll probably start off with a disclaimer. So I haven't personally published any research in menopausal or postmenopausal females. All of the work that I've been involved in are in young individuals that are still menstruating, or males, of course, as well. So from what I have read, I mean unfortunately there is not a lot of data at the moment in that particular study population. I know it's becoming more and more popular and I'm really excited to see you know where that line of research goes.

Holly Baxter: 17:01

I think Dr Stu Phillips has been doing a lot of work up in Canada specifically focusing on, you know, this group of individuals. But I think, generally speaking, we do know that you know, with age, our sex hormones specifically do start to decline, and know that you know, with age, our sex hormones specifically do start to decline. And for women, you know, testosterone is starting to decline, estrogen is starting to decline at about age 30. And it continues to do that, you know, through to the end of life. Basically, and whilst I don't know that that would necessarily have any direct implications on how much muscle we can grow, I believe that some of the symptoms of low testosterone and low estrogen can become problematic if you are aspiring to have a high degree or a high amount of muscle mass just through its capacity to leave you feeling exhausted and like fatigued. So if you're not feeling very energized due to having low testosterone or low estrogen levels, it's a lot harder to stay motivated. And you know, show up regularly and consistently and lift, not to mention then lift with any degree of intensity, and we know how important proximity to failure is for muscle growth. So I think that might be another area where, unfortunately, a lot of women and I have worked with a lot of women in the gym as well over the years and we might perhaps and I don't want to generalize too much because I've also trained with some women that train really hard, but I might say on average, maybe more women struggle to really train at that rate of perceived exertion that is going to be effective for eliciting muscle growth. There was a meta-analysis that came out just last year, I believe, by the Data Driven Strength guys here in Florida actually, and they found that somewhere between an RPE of 7 through 10 seems to elicit similar, know similar muscle growth responses.

Holly Baxter: 18:55

But there are probably a number of people that don't necessarily train in that um like degree of effort and it's not because they're lazy or, you know, they're not competent or able. I think sometimes it all also comes down to, like our confidence in the gym, especially for older women that may not have grown up in this fitness space Like I think of my mom, for instance. She's in her late fifties, women in their sixties like fitness and lifting weights wasn't something that was super popular, so they've kind of adopted resistance training a little bit later in life and may not feel as confident as you know us. You know that have been in the gym for you know, two decades almost, as in you know us, you know that have been in the gym for you know two decades almost as in you know in my case. So I think there's probably also, you know, the element of I don't really feel very confident in doing this, or they don't have a workout buddy or someone that they're you know training with. That gives them that support and encouragement to train hard and truly take their muscles to failure and truly take their muscles to failure.

Holly Baxter: 19:54

But to bring the conversation back to menopause in general, I think all of the principles that I use with my younger clients are the same principles that I use with my older clients, and I don't want to call them old because they're not. They're not in their 70s, I'm talking like 40s, 50s and 60s. So it probably means that for this demographic we need to be a little bit more focused and dialed in, because what I might be able to get away with in terms of my protein intake, my calories, the consistency of my lifting, my sleep, my stress, it probably needs to dial up a few notches relative to my younger self. So, outside of that, I think everything that I teach is basically the same, but we probably need to focus a little bit more.

Philip Pape: 20:45

So that's a good point because I there's like a dichotomy here where the older, like my older clients that are again older I'm 44 and whatever 44 years young that sometimes they're also more committed and willing to do that and to learn. There's like in a different, more mature life state in terms of their wisdom and their hard knocks of life. And again, not to generalize, but sometimes that counteracts some of what you're saying, which makes total sense, but in general for any age. You mentioned RPE. You mentioned exertion and working hard, the confidence how can you build that? You mentioned a training partner. We know somebody can get coaching and support, but let's say they were by themselves. Is there an actual training approach, like using plus sets at the end of your sets to figure out what your true capability is? You know something like that where you'd say, oh, this is a cool technique, you can try to really push yourself without it being a willpower thing.

Holly Baxter: 21:43

Yeah, look, I think I probably implement a little bit more low load training with my like 40 plus clients and honestly, that's probably like 90% of my people that I work with and there's a couple of reasons I implement low load training and I best give a definition of what that is first. So typically, when we look at you know, ways or approaches to build muscle, we can implement high load training, which is taking like relatively heavy loads for fewer reps. So, to generalize, that's your traditional strength training 12 to sorry, 8 to 15 repetitions. Low load training is where we take lighter weights and we perform a higher number of repetitions. So that might be, you know, somewhere between 15 all the way up to 90 reps. And, believe it or not, there are studies one here in fact, at the University of South Florida that did like 90 rep sets to failure and they were able to accomplish the same hypertrophy response as the group that did the traditional resistance training. So I think that that's good because we've got such a broad spectrum of like training strategies and approaches that allow you to grow muscle. But as we get older, at least in my experience and even me personally I say my experience, my clientele, but even for me, when I was doing, you know, some power lifting training, I found that like my joints were getting sore, I was getting injured and I was in my thirties then and getting, you know, like some problems that I wasn't experiencing, you know, short outside of doing like very heavy training. So you know, I do get that feedback a lot from clients that are kind of coming in for the first time where they've tried that traditional high load training and they're, you know, just feeling the wear and tear on their body, perhaps a little bit more, you know, because of the aging process. So the strategy that I use to help build confidence is the reliance on low load training a little bit more. So we do, you know, higher rep ranges, slightly lighter loads, but taking it to failure, or at least very near to, to still elicit a very good muscle growth response.

Holly Baxter: 23:46

And you can also, I guess, improve and build confidence in training to failure with light loads, which is inherently safer with techniques like myoreps, which is basically perform an initial set of 15 repetitions, rest for a really short period of time, I think 10 to 15 seconds, followed by, like you know, an eight rep set and then you rest again, followed by another eight rep set. So you basically kind of cluster. You know this group of exercise with really short rest periods, light loads, but you of exercise with really short rest periods, light loads, but you can get very close to failure doing that and the research would indicate that can lead to similar growth responses. You could also try approaches like blood flow restriction training. Sorry, that's where you know you're applying a tourniquet or some kind of cuff to the proximal portion of the arm or the leg. You're using significantly lighter loads and you can still take that set to failure but in a much safer way, rather than relying on really heavy loads as per traditional training to signal muscle growth. So that's kind of the approach that I take.

Holly Baxter: 24:53

And of course you know you've got to take everybody case by case. Some people you know are a lot more confident in the gym. Maybe they did some kind of sport, you know, when they were younger and they're just a little bit more athlete. But I've got people right now who are in their 60s and this is the first time they've ever been into a gym. You know they've got various like physical issues and limitations and it's a gym. There's various physical issues and limitations and it's a process, but I think you meet them where they're at and, as you see them starting to grow in curiosity and confidence, the ball just starts rolling and it's really cool to see.

Philip Pape: 25:30

Yeah, and this is why there are so many approaches that can work. And you mentioned the rep range is massive. I mean anywhere from you know, two to 90 reps if you were to combine all regimes together and we're talking specifically hypertrophy, you know we don't want to get too much into maybe strength and big lifts Like you alluded to. I've had folks on the show who like they're all into that and then others that say, look, machines are just as effective as free weights. And the answer is yes to all of it. Like, meet you where you're at and make sure you're training hard and within the proximity to failure. So I like that technique for individuals who feel like you know, maybe the big squats aren't for them or they've tried it or they're intimidated.

Philip Pape: 26:07

Okay, so we kind of alluded to earlier, I think, not dieting and that you need to build muscle, at least be in maintenance, at least be gaining, combining that with your training. What are your thoughts on periodization for someone and again our audience is like I guess we're not talking to the total beginner necessarily, or like a little bit step above that, who kind of understands macros and a little bit of this but just break down what effective periodization looks like when we're talking hypertrophy as the goal.

Holly Baxter: 26:40

Look, I think periodization has its place within a training program. But I think you know the concept in general was initially like founded to help mitigate, like external stresses. So essentially we would look at, let's say, the elite sporting athlete who's, you know, trying to compete in their let's say it's a sporting athlete who's trying to compete in their let's say it's a football game or they're doing basketball or something like this. This concept or this idea of periodization is to help mitigate and limit external stress from other outside sources. So basically, as the stress of one thing starts to increase, we kind of want to taper down the other to make sure that there's some sense of balance and that the person isn't dealing with too much at any one time.

Holly Baxter: 27:21

So I don't know that I would necessarily utilize periodization in my resistance training profiles or programs for clients unless they have multiple different stresses or interests. So if they came to me and said, look, I'm a professional athlete, I also care about muscle, I also am interested in doing a marathon in six months time They've got a lot of different interests Then I think there's probably some relevance for periodizing a program. But for the average person who's just going into the gym, who's wanting to improve strength to a certain degree, but their primary goal is just hypertrophy. I don't know that there is a whole lot of need to implement a periodized approach, because we should just be focusing on one training program that is helping them achieve their muscle growth, and I mean, if there's no other competing stress, then we don't really need to periodize. So I don't know whether that does that make sense.

Philip Pape: 28:21

It does. I'm so glad you took that approach and didn't let me like lead you to what you thought I was trying to get to, because I would agree, there's a lot of conversation around like daily, undulating periodization or linear periodization.

Holly Baxter: 28:37

So again, I think those approaches work well, perhaps for individuals that have strength specific goals but they're also wanting to lift for muscle growth. So I know a lot of power lifters, for instance, would benefit from implementing some kind of periodized training approach because they, you know, they're trying to manage the fatigue from their hypertrophy training whilst they're also trying to maximize strength. So you know there's probably a greater need in those instances to include that type of training approach. But I think you know, for someone like myself, or maybe the people that are listening, if you're just going into the gym with the goal of improving your metabolic health, growing some muscle and internal, so you know, making some improvements in strength, that's probably not as important. I think. You know I want to minimize the complexity of someone's program so minimal is best.

Philip Pape: 29:32

No, it's good to identify who it's appropriate for and it depends on your goals, right? If you're an endurance athlete and you're going to do some big cycling race in six months, you know you may have to back off from that and decide how you train now versus how you train closer to the race. Or if you're an athlete, or you know, if you are building strength, there's like a base and a peak. You know phase you would go through and you wouldn't want to be doing seven lifts a day, type body building training when you're going for the peak. But for most people, like you said, keep it simple.

Philip Pape: 29:59

There is a lot of program hopping and we're not talking about that either. How committed should someone be to a single program style or an actual program in terms of weeks or months when they're just trying to get the best result? Keep it simple, keep going before they maybe get tired of it. Is it psychological, like when you just get bored of it and you're ready to move on, or is there a point where the variety is necessary for extra stimulus and symmetry and development of your physique?

Holly Baxter: 30:28

Yeah. So this is a really interesting question I'm sure we have put. So I have a research review where each month we publish, I guess, four different articles on different topics in relation to exercise science and nutrition, and I feel like we did one very recently that looked at exercise variety versus like a very repetitive you know, very repetitive style training program, and I think there are potentially some benefits to exercise variety if the exercises are targeting in different joints, different angles and also potentially different muscle groups within like a specific area. So I think, to give an example, uh, like a leg press or a squat probably does a really good job at targeting not only the rectus femoris but the vastus lateralis and the vastus medialis, so three different areas within our quad, whereas like a extension that does a fantastic job at, I believe, just, you know, nailing and hammering the vastus lateralis, that big muscle down the front of the leg. So you know, in a sense, you probably want to have a combination of different types of exercises to ensure that you're covering all of your bases. But ultimately, if you have a specific set of training goals and I'll just use my own right now because it's a really easy example to talk about because I'm a bikini competitor. All I care about is my glutes and my shoulders. I do not care about anything else at the moment. Sorry, the majority of my work and time spent in the gym is those two muscle groups. Everything else is a secondary focus.

Holly Baxter: 31:57

So, provided that your program is set up to specifically target the muscle groups you care about, if there is enough diversity within those exercises, like we've kind of just described, there's technically no need for you to ever change your program. Because you know, if you've got five staple movements that are targeting the muscles that you want to grow, then in essence you could do that same program for an entire year, provided that your goals didn't change. Now, of course, you'd need to implement all of the. You know typical principles of hypertrophy, you know training with a high degree of effort, implementing progressive overload, and you know that would obviously increase your rate of perceived exertion over time. But yeah, short of that, I mean I think the biggest reason why I change my program is just for enjoyment, like program excitement, program motivation. It's about six weeks for me where I'm like yep, I'm ready for a new program. I don't know about you, but it's about that time for it.

Philip Pape: 33:01

Yeah, it sounds about right. Six weeks, six to nine weeks. I would say, yeah, that's right in the bailiwick, okay. So what about so if we're not necessarily having to periodize and we're not necessarily having to change the program frequently, which is good. It keeps it simple, straightforward. You commit, you develop. I think there's a lot of, like you mentioned, neuromuscular adaptation. There's aspects that you just in the first week you know you have that soreness and then you get, you'll get adapted and now you're growing. What about the different phases of nutrition that go with that? Because people will say, well, what should I do during fat loss versus not? Because my opinion is, if it's auto-regulated it can all work in all phases, versus, say, chasing PRs, which is going to be very difficult in fat loss when you don't have as much energy but there's also a volume component too, right, like you almost sometimes can't work as much in fat loss. What are your thoughts on that?

Holly Baxter: 33:49

Yeah, definitely. So I mean I have definitely been through my first year of fat loss training.

Philip Pape: 33:53

Of course. To the extreme right, I mean I have definitely been through my first year of fat loss pain, of course, right now unfortunately To the extreme right, yeah, to the extreme.

Holly Baxter: 34:04

So I mean, if somebody is striving for muscle growth, I mean if you're trying to do that in a calorically restricted state, I think you're going to limit your capacity to grow muscle and probably also just your general enjoyment and your performance, like all of those things, are going to be compromised, and again, the degree to which probably depends on how long that diet phase is, how much total body mass you've lost and other factors like that. But it's interesting, and I try to refer back to the research and what we actually see. The most recent paper that I read was by Helms and colleagues and they were reviewing, I guess, a fixed resistance training program under different caloric states. So there was a group that were just at their calculated maintenance for this training intervention. It was a group that ate in a modest surplus and then there was a group that ate in a high surplus and what was really interesting was that the hypertrophy response between those groups was actually insignificant. Now I might argue that the study design perhaps wasn't as great as it could have been. I don't know whether the program that they implemented with these participants was necessarily geared up to have them make meaningful muscle growth changes. I don't know whether the volume was quite high enough for this group of resistance trained individuals, but my theory is and again, I can't say that I've seen any data on this, but you know, anecdotally, through the work that I've done with clients, and maybe you've experienced this too I think that the the ability for somebody to build muscle might actually come down to their starting like body fat percentages or their current body composition. So my hypothesis would be that and again I have to pick a line in the sand here so I'm going to say 25% body fat If you are above 25% body fat, I think, even if you are at maintenance calories.

Holly Baxter: 35:50

I believe, based on what I have seen with clients over the last two decades of working one-on-one with people, and for myself too, I do believe that these individuals can make meaningful progress in terms of building muscle because they have, you know, they have residue body fat, they have an energy source on their person that they can utilize to, you know, build that foundational muscle. Conversely, the leaner we get, there's less of a reservoir of energy, there's less adipose tissue that can be used for the provision of energy and to build muscle. I suspect that the leaner, we get sub 25% body fat. I think it becomes significantly more difficult to build an appreciable amount of muscle in that state If you're not then providing that energy through dietary meats.

Holly Baxter: 36:39

So I do think it's possible for people to build muscle even at maintenance and probably even in a deficit in some cases. But that probably depends on their baseline characteristics. For the leaner individual, if they are trying to also create a deficit, it'd be like if I today you know I'm four weeks out from a competition there is probably very little chance that I'm building any muscle right now. I'm just trying to hang on to dear life for what I've got because I don't have a whole lot of energy reserves to fuel, you know, the building of more muscle tissue. So I think you were talking was your original question about strength.

Philip Pape: 37:22

No, it was about the confusion over like, how should I train in different phases? And what you just said was you know, depending on the energy stores you have on your body right, the more fat to lose, the easier it is probably to build muscle without being in a huge surplus, and leaner you are, you need a surplus. I guess the sub question for that is should people train?

Holly Baxter: 37:40

My answer would probably be no, with a few minor caveats. So I'd say that if your goals are unchanged so if you still have the goals of building a fantastic set of quads or a gigantic set of biceps the program that you implement during a fat loss phase would still be the same program that you implement during a muscle building phase. The key differences would be that you're probably not going to quite get the same response to that program. If you're in the extreme calorie deficit and you're a really lean person, the caveat might be that, due to low energy availability and perhaps inadequate micronutrient intake, your recovery probably isn't going to be as good during that calorie deficit. So I would say that the training probably going to be as good, you know, during that, uh, calorie deficit. So I would say that the training probably needs to be geared towards, um, a more modest approach. So, for instance, I do not ever program, or very rarely, I shouldn't say ever.

Holly Baxter: 38:37

I do not program very often when I'm dieting. You know rpe 10 or rpe 9. Even I try to train within an appropriate, you know, rpe 10 or RPE 9. Even I try to train within an appropriate, you know, or at an appropriate intensity, but not so high that I, you know, injure myself, because my injury risk would be heightened during a calorically restricted state. So I think the intensity at which I train is probably a little bit less.

Holly Baxter: 39:01

And then the other thing I think that's important to consider is that when you are dieting and you're calorically restricted, your performance is going to suffer. At some point. You might start to see performance decrements what you were able to lift at the beginning of your training block eight weeks in and your dieting might be noticeably different because you don't have the same energy levels to kind of get in and train really hard. And that's also problematic for dieting too, because we do start to see trends down in how much energy you're actually expending during your workouts when you're in that calorically restricted state too. So it makes it harder and harder to lose fat. You know the lower your calories and the longer you've been dieting, so it makes it harder and harder to lose fat. You know the lower your calories and the longer you've been dieting, so it's a tough situation to navigate.

Philip Pape: 39:50

It absolutely is. And I know from personal experience right now because I'm also in a fat loss phase for the last four weeks or so kind of a mini cut which is very, very aggressive. And you go in with high hopes that you're going to continue your training just like you were doing and you're like I need to cut volume here because there's just nothing left, even with the banana right before your workout or whatever. Calories are just so low. So people need to understand that. But then also, getting back to the other side, the muscle building side, it implies that there's potentially a lot of opportunity for women to spend time in that type of phase not gaining, you know, tens and tens of pounds and lots of fat, right?

Carol: 40:31

But doing it in a lean, healthy way. Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way, so if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 41:10

What are your general? I mean, we could spend a whole episode talking about muscle building, what to do, and I've talked about it as well but like, what are your top three principles, I guess I would say for someone wanting to do their first serious muscle building?

Holly Baxter: 41:22

phase. I can't stress enough the importance of patience and I think once somebody understands the reality of speed at which a muscle grows, I think that can be really helpful. A lot of people don't have a solid understanding of what's realistic, so when I mentioned to somebody, it is really like watching paint dry. You know, I mentioned before, 0.2 to 0.3 of a centimeter is what we would typically observe in the average eight to 12 week study intervention. So I'll say, okay, we're going to do a three month field. I'm like do you think that you could see three millimeters if I were to tell you to look in the mirror and most of them will say, oh, probably not. So then I might say to them okay, well, what about six months? So we do a six month build. And you didn't have any interruptions. You consistently trained that entire way through. Maybe now you've acquired 0.6 of a centimeter. Do you think that you could see that in the mirror? And some of them might say yes, others might say no. But I'll always push back and say, well, if you've got body fat and most of us do during a build I would encourage you to have some body fat if you're going to do a build, so that you've got the energy to train hard. But most of us wouldn't be able to see even that kind of a change because we have a layer of body fat sitting over that muscle. So I think that it is. It's a challenging phase because you can't see the rewards immediately, like you can when you're dieting. You know there's that instant gratification when you start to see body fat stripping away, um, but you can't really see muscle growing. So I think you know patience is so important, um, and I know I sound like a broken record in my check-ins to my clients, but I'm like this is eat, sleep, train, repeat right now and make sure that you enjoy what you're doing so that you do consistently show up and keep at this and, I think, reminding folks that the benefits may not be visible.

Holly Baxter: 43:11

Now, this is like your short-term sacrifice for long-term gain. But for every one kilogram of muscle that somebody puts on, you're able to increase your basal metabolic rate by somewhere in the measure of 22 to 25 calories per kg. So on the front end that doesn't sound very meaningful, right? So let's say you put on four kgs I mean that's or five kilograms. We're talking 100 calorie increase to your BMR.

Holly Baxter: 43:37

But it's when you then move that more muscular body and you just go about your day to day activities or you do the same lifting program that you've been doing for a few years in that more muscular body. Now it burns so many more calories because it's moving and it makes it so much easier in the future to actually achieve your fat loss goals. Because, without changing anything to how much exercise you do, you might do the same cardio. Anything to how much exercise you do, you might do the same cardio, same five-day training split, same incidental movement. But your body's like a guzzling truck. That's just incredibly inefficient. It uses a lot of energy. So it's so much easier to burn fat and then maintain a leaner physique once you've acquired the muscle. But again, I think so many women get stuck on. But I want to see my leaner self. I want to be lean. For every week that they diet. That could have been a week chasing the muscle that they ultimately need.

Philip Pape: 44:39

No, it does, and that's like an investment in years and years and years of much easier living, dieting, whatever you're trying to do after that. Like you said, we did an episode not long ago called like 10 ways muscle burns more calories beyond what you think, or something that was looking into the research beyond just the cost of the tissue that you mentioned. Right that in American units, right, 10, 10, around 10 calories per pound. But same thing where there's other things happening, some that we don't even understand. Right, there seems to be other mechanisms, signaling mechanisms and such that cause us to burn more calories because we have more muscle, not to mention just standing around with more body weight. Because you're leaner at a higher body weight, you're burning more muscle. That's pretty cool.

Philip Pape: 45:29

And then the patience of of doing it and getting through it and you, as a coach, saying, look, just keep doing what you're doing and focus on the process. That's all I can help you with right now. And as a coach, you're probably like I wish there was some other special magic thing I can mention this week. But there is it. Just keep it up.

Holly Baxter: 45:40

Yeah, I think for men and women too.

Holly Baxter: 45:42

though. I mean I work with dozens of guys as well. Some compete competitively, Others are just gen pop wanting to be healthier, live a better quality life. But I think even the males struggle with not necessarily being at their lean, shredded physique too. I get just as much, or close to the same, kind of pushback, having a little bit of the tummy tire or excess body fat.

Holly Baxter: 46:06

But yeah, I think this is why it's also important to have a coach or to do the work yourself, whether it's through listening to audio podcasts, reading that help you improve your overall confidence and like self-worth. I know a lot of the client coaching sessions with my clients are just helping them, you know, recognize their value outside of their physique and kind of talk them off the cliff that they're sitting on because they feel so unhappy in how they look visibly. But you know, we then focus on their performance and you know how they're feeling and their confidence in you know, being consistent and all these other things. So, yeah, it's. There are different focuses, I think, in a building phase and different challenges and, yeah, again, I think the biggest thing is just having patience as your muscle is growing.

Philip Pape: 46:59

Yeah, and you just mentioned one way to maybe support that patience with some I'll call it instant gratification or short-term thinking is tracking the right things that cause there are things that do change more quickly that you could celebrate. What would those be? What would be the big things that most people should be tracking?

Holly Baxter: 47:19

Um, I would say, uh, like, if they're open to doing like macro tracking, I think, um, knowing and feeling confident in your, your decisions around your nutrition is helpful. Knowing that you're getting a sufficient amount of protein in uh is really important. I, for some of my clients, they just track protein and calories. Others are tracking you know, all macros. But I think that that gives confidence and, you know, helps them in trusting the process. If they know that these are my current calories, this is intended to keep my weight, you know, know, relatively stable, or at least they've got a trajectory of where they're heading and each week they can look at their data and go, yep, okay, what's happening is supposed to be happening. So, yeah, caloric tracking, nutrition tracking, I think is really important, protein especially.

Holly Baxter: 47:58

And then from a training standpoint and this is not something I always used to do, I probably only implemented it in the last maybe eight to 10 years of my practice is tracking energy expenditure, like within a workout. So I mean, many of us wear Apple watches, garments, fitbits, tracking how much energy you expend in your workouts and just looking at the relative changes week over week. And then, if you're open to it, I also have some of my clients that, like data, do the same thing, you know, with their steps. We'll track relative changes from week to week so they can kind of see and make sense of why you know their weight might have gone up a little bit more this week than others. And it could be very easily distinguishable because, oh, look at that, my average steps this week were 4,000 less than last week.

Holly Baxter: 48:39

Or, oh, see all those sessions that I missed because I was busy doing things with the kids. Oh well, see all those sessions that I missed because I was busy doing things with the kids. Oh well, that amounted to a thousand calories less than last week. Oh well, naturally that's why my weight went up a little bit, sorry, I think having that data can be validating because it helps us make sense of why things are happening. I think tracking fiber is another really important one that obviously influences scale weight significantly really important one that obviously influences scale weight significantly. So I think one of the things that a lot of my clients have been grateful for is me being able to point out, like why you know their weight went down or why it went up.

Holly Baxter: 49:14

In response, to massive fluctuations in just food choice. I'm like, guys, this isn't even a bad thing. Like here's why you gained weight. It has nothing to do with body fat. Like here's why you gained weight, it has nothing to do with body fat. So data certainly can be a positive thing, especially if this is a long, six to 12 month game plan of building so that you can make sense of the changes, and that gives confidence. Yeah, and I think, just from a training standpoint, having some physical challenges that you can work towards too, it's one thing to just look at yourself in the mirror, but to have something that you can tangibly try to improve in terms of strength, picking a few key focus lifts and getting into the gym and having a performance-based goal, I think is also incredibly valuable during that building phase. Otherwise, it just becomes very monotonous and repetitive.

Philip Pape: 50:08

Yeah, it's kind of meandering and aimless at that point. I totally know what you mean. It could be a PR on a lift or it could be hey, I'm going to do my first unassisted pull-up, or whatever it might be. One thing I want to ask about you said energy expenditure in your workouts. Why do you track that specifically? And I ask for two reasons One is the inaccuracy of some of this data on wearables, to be honest. But then the other is what are you trying to measure? Because I would suspect measuring volume, tonnage, things like that are a good indicator of your lifting progress, but what are you trying to measure with that expenditure?

Holly Baxter: 50:37

Yeah, sorry, the reason that I would track energy expenditure. And I want to just point out you are 1000% correct about these wrist-worn prices being largely inaccurate. I'm not looking at those necessarily for their absolute number, so I don't believe when I see somebody's done you know, 5,000 calories of energy expenditure across the week from their lifting and their cardio, that that's actually true and correct. I'm looking at the relative change from week to week just to. And again, if they're at maintenance, I want to be able to say to them your energy balance has stayed pretty consistent this week and thus there shouldn't be anything to worry about in terms of your body composition changing. And again, a lot of my clients are worried if in their in their building phase, that I'm suddenly putting on all this body fat. So it's nice to have that data to show them. Hey, look, for the last five weeks of your you know training, you've had very consistent week to week energy expenditures. Sorry, you know, there's no reason to believe that you've put on body fat.

Holly Baxter: 51:34

And then the volume tracking that's really nice. If you train in the same location with the same equipment. I find that I place less value and weight in volume if I've got a client that is traveling, you know, every week their year, uh, because of their work, and they're in different gyms where the machines all load a bit differently. So, um, yeah, I think the volume tracking has its place. If you do and are somebody that has a um, a gym that you train at consistently and you're following a structured program, because then you can at consistently and you're following a structured program because then you can actually see like you're making progress in said lift. If you've got your overhand shoulder press you've been working on that I mean you can see your volume increasing week over week.

Philip Pape: 52:16

But those are all fair points. And I asked about the energy thing because I'm going to start using that with my clients. Honestly, I've never just I've always dismissed it because of the inaccuracy and like trying to understand the value. But if you take the totality of as a proxy for just your overall activity and energy flux, it's great and it goes beyond just steps right Because it kind of includes everything, I think that's pretty cool.

Holly Baxter: 52:38

Yeah, some of the clients will use some of theirs just run in the background. We'll use some of theirs just run in the background. So they'll give me their total daily energy estimated energy expenditure. I probably use that less but I do like it for if you've got a six week or a nine week program, as you said, that you're following consistently, if, like, I like to look at well, what was your energy expenditure for these sessions.

Philip Pape: 52:57

For the sessions yes, yes.

Holly Baxter: 52:58

And sometimes you will see noticeable differences, and it might be oh, you know, my kid had me up all night, I didn't sleep, or I have been unwell, and you can see the changes week after week, even though it's the same program. Um, that can help, um provide a reasonable justification for why their weight might be moving around a little bit. So, um, yeah, I find that very helpful.

Philip Pape: 53:20

Got it? No, I love that stuff. We're all about data and I'm always trying to discover new things to track. You know HRV over here and this over there. Do you have like five minutes just to wrap?

Holly Baxter: 53:28

Okay.

Philip Pape: 53:29

Absolutely, because the one thing I kind of was going to lead part of this discussion with was more about time efficiency and I and the conversation actually took a really nice direction and other very critical topics but I did want to get back to if women are stressed. You know they have a stressful life, busy life. I'm sure lots of women in your you know client base are trying to find the time to work out. We know it's important but there's also a limit with kids and with family or with work. What is, I'll say, the minimum effective dose? Right?

Holly Baxter: 54:10

Or minimum viable product, whatever with time in the gym or number of sessions or length of sessions where you still can get amazing results for hypertrophy. Yeah, so it does depend on someone's training status. So for like beginners, brand new to lifting the first time stepping in the gym, then the number of sets that you would need per muscle group per week is probably somewhere between 10 to 15 sets. So it's actually quite difficult to prioritize every single muscle group, believe it or not, otherwise you'd probably be living in the gym, and even more so if you're an advanced lifter. But to just generalize, if you've got, say, three key areas you want to grow and you're time poor and you're a beginner, then just make sure that those three key muscle groups you are doing somewhere between 10 and 15 sets per week and that you're distributing them over a minimum of like two days or two days. Training frequency. What we tend to see is, once you perform more than, say, nine hard working sets, when taken to failure within a single session on one muscle group. So, example, quads you wouldn't want to do four quad exercises taking you to 12 sets in that same session. There starts to be diminishing returns. So we don't necessarily see any additional benefits in terms of hypertrophy beyond that. So I personally stick to like six to nine sets maximum on one muscle group before I move on. But for advanced lifters those numbers are quite a bit higher and I would say probably somewhere between 20 and 30 working sets or direct sets, taken close or to failure, per muscle group per week. So I have found in my experience I can usually only fit about two or three focused muscle groups up in that kind of volume range before I run out of days in the week to train. So everything else kind of then takes a back seat. So if I pick my glutes and my shoulders and maybe my quads as my focus muscle groups, that's going to take up a few days of your training. So you know all of the other groups might end up being just at maintenance volume. So that would be somewhere between you know, zero and 10 sets per week would probably I should say three sets to 10 sets per week would help you to maintain your current muscle mass as an advanced lifter. So that's kind of how I would encourage somebody to think about their their training week if they're time poor and then to utilize like efficient training strategies.

Holly Baxter: 56:31

So I mentioned before, like the benefits of potentially relying on like female biology, capitalize on short rest periods. We have this innate ability at least it seems sorry in some research to have shorter rest. So, provided that your recovery allows you to perform eight or more repetitions in your subsequent sets, you know, even if you've had 30 seconds recovery, that still leads to the same kind of growth response as resting for three minutes. Now, I know some people love resting for long periods. Go for it. You'll probably have a much higher total volume, but that doesn't inherently mean that you're going to get more muscle growth. So, yeah, I opt for short rest periods when I'm busy. I'm usually only in the gym, like four times a week for about 60 minutes myself, so that plays a really important part in getting in and getting out and still getting a really effective workout.

Philip Pape: 57:27

That's good. I mean people. It's good to understand that this is accessible for anyone at any training age, even as an advanced, and by by the time you get to be an advanced lifter, you're you're probably so into it that you're going to find the time anyway. That's my take on it. But you know your, your app, uh be a, is new and improved and got lots of great features. How does that play into how people train and help them do this?

Holly Baxter: 57:50

Yeah, oh, my gosh, I'm so excited about it. So we launched a product last year actually and unfortunately we had to take it off the market for various reasons that I can't discuss today. But I have a new business partner and we basically rebuilt this thing bigger and better, and it is incredible. So we have hundreds of different training programs with many different focuses. So I believe we have strength focus programs, hypertrophy, cardio, mobility and warmup programs and catered to different experience levels, and all the programs implement an evidence-based approach and it's got so many really cool features. So one of the things that I always found frustrating when I used to be a personal trainer, back when I was like 18 years old, was I'd write a program for a client and they're like I don't have that piece of equipment feature where, if you use this little button, it will show you every other exercise in our entire workout library that targets the same primary muscle group as the movement you're trying to replace, so you don't have to guess your exercise.

Holly Baxter: 58:54

It'll show you these are the 50 or 60 other movements that will target that muscle group. So that's been really a really great tool. We've also got a brand new build your own workout feature. So for those that are more advanced and just want to kind of dabble and having a nice platform for your programs as opposed to putting them in Excel sheets, it does that. But it's got so many cool features and I can't wait to keep adding more.

Philip Pape: 59:18

Great yeah. And look, if someone's listening and you're looking for a workout program based on evidence-based principles. And, by the way, the two pain points you just talked about from personal experience are big pain points like swapping exercises. I do it all the time, whether I'm following my own program or someone else's. Just I'll need to do it, and most apps you just have to know and then search for it, and so that is really cool. And then I know you have meal-friendly or macro-friendly food in there as well. So for people that are trying to get an all one-stop shop for everything, it sounds like a great app. So we're going to, we're going to throw that in there. Is there anything else you wish we had covered?

Holly Baxter: 59:51

um, holly, before we adjourn, oh my gosh, there's so many things.

Philip Pape: 59:56

No, not right now.

Holly Baxter: 59:59

Okay.

Philip Pape: 59:59

No, that's all good. Um, where do you want people to find you?

Holly Baxter: 1:00:01

I mean, we'll definitely throw the app in there, or else you want them to hit you up. I think most things you're able to discover on my Instagram platform, but I'm on YouTube. I always do educational videos on YouTube. That's kind of my pride and joy over on that platform. But I put lots of content out on Instagram. We put our website, we've got the app links and everything available right there. So that's just Holly T Baxter.

Philip Pape: 1:00:22

Cool, all right, we'll keep it simple. Through the app, the YouTube, the IG, people can reach out to you. Thank you so much for coming on. These are always really good topics to revisit because there's so many myths out there and so much nonsense, and I like your measured, you know, evidence-based approach, but it's still super flexible and anyone can do this. So thank you, holly, for bringing your expertise to the show of the show.

Holly Baxter: 1:00:44

Thank you, I had a great time.

Does the Perfect Fat Loss Plan Exist? (Black vs. Blue Line) | Ep 306

Get your free 2-week trial of Physique University where I teach a complete system for transforming your body using evidence-based strategies and engineering principles. Go to witsandweights.com/physique

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You've tried following your calories and macros perfectly, the "perfect" fat loss plan, a meal plan, or a diet where you have to eat specific foods or eat at certain times (like keto, carnivore, or intermittent fasting)...

But then life happens and you fall short. Why do these approaches consistently fail? And what should you do instead?

Today I introduce the powerful engineering concept of Black Line vs Blue Line thinking that completely transforms how we approach nutrition plans. 

You'll discover why perfection isn't just unnecessary... it's actually working against you.

This episode provides a framework that aligns with both human psychology and the realities of daily life. You'll learn to build intelligent flexibility into your nutrition plan, navigate challenging scenarios like social events and travel, and transform your relationship with food!

Main Takeaways:

• The Black Line represents the "perfect plan" while the Blue Line represents what actually happens in real-world execution

• Success comes from skillfully navigating deviations, not eliminating them

• Rigid plans create all-or-nothing thinking that leads to the "diet spiral"

• Building adaptation skills is more valuable than strict adherence

• Strategic flexibility accelerates results rather than slowing them down

Timestamps:

0:01 - The problem with plans  
3:57 - The Black Line vs. Blue Line concept
7:19 - Why rigid nutrition plans typically fail 
14:11 - Design with flexibility from the start
15:46 - "If/then" frameworks for common scenarios
17:49 - Your hierarchy of nutrition priorities
19:41 - The 80/20 principle
21:05 - Pre-planned contingencies
22:31 - Mindful deviation
23:42 - Momentum vs. perfection

Why the Perfect Fat Loss Plan Is Failing You (And What to Do Instead)

You’ve been told to follow the plan. Hit your macros. Stick to your meal prep. Don’t deviate. But what if that rigid, disciplined, Type-A mindset is exactly what's slowing you down?

In this episode, I introduced a powerful engineering concept called black line vs. blue line thinking, and how it reveals the real reason most fat loss plans fall apart—especially for high performers who “do everything right.”

Let’s break down what this means and how it can radically change your approach to nutrition, fat loss, and fitness.

The Black Line: Your Ideal Plan

The black line represents perfection. It’s the detailed, structured, idealized plan:

• Calories and macros are calculated

• Meal timing is dialed in

• Grocery list is prepped

• Meal prep is flawless

• You hit your training days and stay on track

It’s the plan you create with full control and zero friction. It assumes your life behaves like a controlled experiment.

But guess what?

That’s not real life. And it’s definitely not sustainable.

The Blue Line: Real Life in Action

The blue line is what actually happens:

• You have a surprise meeting at work

• Your kid gets sick and needs you at home

• You forget to prep lunch

• You go out to eat and can’t track perfectly

• You hit your calories but your protein is low

• You overeat one day and under-eat the next

The blue line is your actual path through daily life—full of variability, messiness, and unpredictable events. It’s where real fat loss happens.

The irony?

We think fat loss depends on following the black line perfectly. In reality, success depends on how well you navigate the blue line.

Why Black Line Thinking Sabotages Progress

Most clients who come to me have internalized this black line mindset. It sounds like:

• “If I go over on calories, I blew it.”

• “If I miss a workout, I’m behind.”

• “If I can’t track on vacation, there’s no point.”

• “Once I fall off, I need to start fresh next Monday.”

This creates:

1. All-or-nothing thinking

2. Psychological stress

3. A fragile system that breaks with any deviation

You don’t need more rigidity. You need resilience.

How to Shift to Blue Line Thinking

Instead of obsessing over the perfect plan, build skillful adaptation strategies into your nutrition from day one. Here's how:

1. Start With Flexible Targets

Use ranges, not hard numbers.
Example: Instead of “I must hit 2000 calories,” try “anywhere from 1800–2200 is fine across the week.”

Set minimum protein goals and then let carbs and fats vary based on life and preference. Focus on consistency over precision.

2. Plan for Real-Life Scenarios

Create go-to strategies for events you know will happen:

• Eating out? Pre-log your meal.

• Social event? Hit protein early in the day.

• No time to track? Use hand portions or “good-better-best” food choices.

Most people don’t fail because they’re lazy—they fail because they didn’t have a plan for what to do when the plan breaks.

3. Practice Mindful Deviations

Not all deviations are failures. Some are intentional choices—like eating dessert at your anniversary dinner. Others are unplanned but still manageable.

Either way, reflect, don’t react:

• What happened?

• Why did it happen?

• What would I do next time?

This is how you learn.

4. Use the 80/20 Principle

Aim for 80% consistency, not 100%. This gives you breathing room to navigate life and prevents the guilt spiral that happens with tiny slip-ups.

80% could mean:

• 22 out of 28 meals on plan each week

• 5 of 7 days hitting protein

• 4 strength sessions out of 5 planned

It’s not a cop-out. It’s a reality-based framework.

5. Track Data, Not Just Targets

The real power of the blue line is in the feedback loop. Track what you planned (black line) and what actually happened (blue line). Look at the gap, and use that to make adjustments.

That gap isn’t failure—it’s opportunity. It’s the space where coaching happens and where sustainable change lives.

The Unexpected Benefit of the Blue Line

Here’s the counterintuitive part.

When you embrace flexible, resilient thinking and stop trying to “nail it” every day, your results actually improve:

• You stop starting over

• You avoid binge/restrict cycles

• You build lifelong skills

• You feel less stressed about food

• You get more consistent

The blue line doesn’t slow you down. It accelerates your progress—because it aligns with real human behavior.

The Real Goal Isn’t Precision—It’s Progress

You don’t need the perfect fat loss plan.

You need a plan that bends without breaking. That adapts with you. That survives a chaotic work week, a kid’s birthday party, and a summer vacation without completely unraveling.

So ask yourself:

Are you obsessed with walking the black line?

Or are you ready to embrace the blue line—the messy, real, adaptable path to your best body and most confident self?

If this resonates, it’s exactly the kind of flexible strategy we use inside Physique University, my system for sustainable fat loss and muscle building. You’ll learn how to build a plan that bends, not breaks—and finally make progress that lasts.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free for evidence-based workout programs

🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Maybe you've tried all the diets, you've tried all the plans, you've joined multiple programs for fat loss and you've stuck to the rules. You've stuck to the targets. Even if you have calories and macros and you follow them perfectly, somehow the results don't always match the promise. Is it a lack of discipline? Is it your genetics? Is it your hormones? Or could the entire approach be flawed from the start? Today, I'm revealing an engineering concept called black line versus blue line thinking that will probably change how you think about your plan in the context of the real world. This episode is going to give you a more counterintuitive approach that I think will lead to better, faster results than the perfect plan ever could. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are examining a concept that I learned recently from the engineering and manufacturing world that will revolutionize your approach to nutrition and help you break free from the rigid all-or-nothing mindset that sabotages so many people. You might have heard people talk about all-or-nothing before, but this is going to be a different look at that, because, whether you've tracked macros for years or you're just starting your nutrition journey, understanding the difference between the black line of perfect planning and the blue line of real world execution are going to change your approach to dieting and eating food in general for the rest of your life. It is a paradigm shift. It's been a game changer for my clients and now I have a framework to better explain it by. It's going to give you both better physical results, but also better psychological relationship with food. So today you're going to learn why pursuing nutritional perfection actually works against you, how strategically deviating from your plan can accelerate your progress, and then a framework to build intelligent flexibility into your nutrition plan. I'm going to be specific today, as always, I'm going to give you tactics to navigate real challenges, like social events, like travel, those inevitable days when cravings feel overwhelming, and if you are tired of feeling like you're constantly falling short of your goals and trying to start again over and over. I think this episode is a different perspective that aligns with both human psychology and the realities of daily life. Now, before we get into it, if you are enjoying this engineering approach to fitness and nutrition, I think you're going to get tons of value from the Physique University, where I teach a complete system for transforming your body using evidence-based science strategies, engineering principles just like we are discussing today, in a very accessible way. Students in Physique University learn to implement this kind of flexible approach to nutrition, to training, really to everything in life, while still achieving remarkable results. And if you wanna join us there to take advantage of that, get your free two-week trial, get your free first challenge, get a custom nutrition plan and everything else that comes in there. Go to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes Again witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 3:34

So let's talk about this engineering concept called the black line versus the blue line. It's something I actually just came across recently, but it explains this so well. It comes from systems thinking and from human factors engineering. I saw it in a number of places. One place was an article by an engineer in LinkedIn. His name is Jason Daring, I think is how you say it.

Philip Pape: 3:57

But the actual concept goes back to safety science and organizational psychology, where researchers like Sidney Decker, eric Hallnagel, pioneered the study of how work is actually performed versus how it's prescribed. So listen up, because this actually applies to your job as well, not just nutrition. So the fundamental concept is that the black line represents work as imagined, planned or designed. So that is your idealized path, that is the perfect procedure, the flawless execution. So in the engineering world it shows up as detailed procedures, steps, checklists, process documents right, so stick with me, because we're going to apply this to nutrition. The blue line, however, represents the work as actually performed in the real world. It's what happens when humans execute the plan in variable, complex environments where the conditions are constantly changing, and the blue line, naturally, of course, is going to deviate from the black line as people adapt to all the things going on, all the things that are changing, all the unexpected variables. So this concept is central to what safety scientists call safety two thinking Okay, safety two, like not one, but two.

Philip Pape: 5:17

And that focuses on understanding why things go right most of the time, rather than just analyzing the failures. Pretty cool, right? Why do things actually do go right most of the time, rather than just analyzing the failures? Pretty cool, right? Why do things actually do go right most of the time? And the insight that they found is that success doesn't come from perfectly following the black line, the plan. Success comes from skillfully navigating the blue line, making smart adaptations, having flexibility, maintaining resilience when the deviations occur. In fact, research in this area shows that things go right most of the time, not because people originally follow the plan and the procedure, but because they successfully adapt to the changing circumstances, which are inevitable. And when things go wrong, it's rarely because people deviated from the plan. Right, we don't blame the person. When things go wrong, it's usually because of an outside force they encountered a novel situation beyond their experience or their adaptability.

Philip Pape: 6:12

So now let's translate this directly to nutrition. Right, we talked about the black line versus blue line generally. Now we're gonna talk about why, normally rigid plans usually fail with nutrition. So the black line in nutrition is your perfect meal plan, right? Your perfect nutrition plan, it's the calories and macros, tracking to those exactly the precisely measuring and weighing your food. You know, having your meals with the right timing, the absence of, maybe, things you're trying to avoid. It might even be the absence of complete food groups. If you're trying to avoid. It might even be the absence of complete food groups if you're trying to follow a rigid diet. It's basically the plan that you design on Sunday night, that you say I'm going to start on Monday with the best of intentions, and this could apply to even when we do this right a proper fat loss plan where you do have some calorie macro targets and you know exactly what you're trying to do and you have a lot of flexibility in your food choices. This could still be the black line. You're assuming you're going to be able to hit those targets and your protein, fats, carbs, your meal timing every day right, you're going to assume that that's the perfect plan. That's the black line.

Philip Pape: 7:19

The blue line is what actually happens in life. Okay, you execute that plan and, starting on day two, things start to go wrong. Your meeting runs late and you're starving right, it's what happens when your friend invites you to an impromptu dinner. It's what happens when you're traveling and your options are limited. It's what happens when stress, when emotions, when just the human cravings we all have start to influence your choices. Okay, and most people approach nutrition with the first mentality, the black line mentality.

Philip Pape: 7:47

I can even accuse myself, when I have a brand new client, of having that to an extent, because I give you a plan, I give you an idealistic scenario of all the things that if we do them, we're going to get from A to B. Right, that is a black line, where you believe that success means following the plan perfectly and any deviation represents failure. And this perspective from engineering shows us why this fails. And it's simple. Think about it this way In a complex environment and guess what? Daily life is right, complex, unpredictable.

Philip Pape: 8:19

There are simply too many variables to account for. You just cannot account for everything that's going to happen. Just like if you made a map and gave yourself directions from here to the store, you don't know if there's going to be a squirrel crossing the road construction along the way. Just you don't know what's going to happen. Somebody's going to sideswipe you, right? Just as no procedure can anticipate every possible scenario, your plan, your nutrition plan cannot possibly, nor should it account for every situation you're going to encounter.

Philip Pape: 8:49

Um and and I think the driving example is apropos, right, because if you try to do that, if you try to tell somebody when they have to break, accelerate, change lanes et cetera, you're not, you're not going to account for what's what's happening, you're not gonna know when to put in those instructions. You can try, and then, when you actually drive, you see how closely you follow your procedure. In reality, you don't right it it. So your procedure only captured the most basic aspects of that driving trip right, turn here, stop there, et cetera. But then every trip you are actually successful and you get to the store. You adapted and adjusted to tons of things that were not in your plan right, and so you didn't succeed because you followed your plan perfectly, but instead you skillfully navigated the variables and unexpected events.

Philip Pape: 9:34

So when we think of nutrition plans and why they fail, there's a few obvious reasons. The first one they ignore the complexity of real life. So, again, going back to the plan that I provide to clients, we go in already discussing from day one that this is an adaptable plan and that we're not. We're probably not going to, it's probably not going to be working like you think by day two or three, because something's going to happen in your life and that's when we're going to have to have a conversation, coach and client um, to help you get through that. So plans ignore the complexity of life. They assume a level of control and predictability that does not exist, and so when you design a meal plan, for example, this is a good example of something too rigid. A meal plan doesn't account for all the variables that affect your eating behaviors, from your emotional state at the moment, to your work schedule, to your social obligations.

Philip Pape: 10:23

Second is that rigid plans do create an all or nothing mindset. The more rigid, the more of that mindset you're going to have, because when hitting that target exactly is the only acceptable outcome. Any deviation is going to make you feel like a complete failure and that's what leads to what I call the diet spiral. This is where a small deviation triggers that feeling of failure, like you let yourself down. It leads to you giving up entirely the effort mentality and that leads to even more extreme behaviors in both directions.

Philip Pape: 10:55

The third thing is that rigid plans don't build the adaptation skills right. So when I give my clients a plan, it's understood that this is just one little piece of an overall strategy. But when your strategy is just stick to the plan perfectly, you're not going to develop the decision-making abilities, the skill needed to navigate the challenges that come up. And this is a skill. If you want quick weight loss, you can crash, diet on really low calories, you can cut out carbs, lose a bunch of weight. You won't even know how you got there and if you try to do it again, it's not going to work. And then what do you do afterward? Right, you didn't develop any skills, and then you're extremely vulnerable to any situation that disrupts your routine in the future.

Philip Pape: 11:37

The last thing about rigid plans is they create psychological stress, and it's unnecessary. It's just not necessary. It's this constant pressure to be perfect. It's the guilt when you inevitably deviate. It's the anxiety about social situations. Tell me if this doesn't sound familiar, right? All of this decreases your quality of life. It just makes life suck and then, ironically, guess what happens.

Philip Pape: 12:03

It makes the adherence to the plan harder and harder and harder, and so it's something I see with clients all the time who've come to me in the past having tried all these different approaches. Usually it's specific diets keto, carnivore, whatever and they're rigid, right, it's like you have to cut out these food groups or you have to stick to this specific meal plan, and they always start with enthusiasm, they stick to it for a while, they get some quote unquote progress, and sometimes I'll even ask, hey, what's worked for you in the past? And I say, well, keto worked for me for three months, but then it stopped, right, like you're not still doing it for a reason. You feel like a failure. You then abandon the plan. You think all plans are like that, and even when you start a new cycle again, you have more and more skepticism for each one. And then they come to me and they're like super skeptical, not even thinking they should hire a coach, because every other coach or plan they've tried hasn't worked. And it's not a personal failure, um, it's a predictable outcome. This is, those are.

Philip Pape: 12:57

Those are flawed approaches, because you're trying to follow the black line perfectly. It's, it's. It's not just difficult, this is not, guys. This is not a matter of getting over the hump and doing it. It is fundamentally misaligned with how humans operate in complex environments, and that's why I thought the black line versus blue line was really a really great concept, right.

Philip Pape: 13:18

And so if, if, rigid adherence to this straight black line, this perfect plan, is not the answer, how do we embrace this more curved, meandering blue line and still make progress? Because, at the end of the day, you want to end up close to the black line anyway, don't you, right? And so the key here listen up. The key is to shift from a perfection-oriented approach to a resilience-oriented approach. Go from perfection-oriented, where you're trying to stick to your plan, stay on track, stay on the rail, to a resilience-oriented approach, a very flexible, adaptable approach and instead of trying to eliminate the deviations right, which is just as good as trying to eliminate all the things that stress you out in life, you can't, you're not gonna eliminate them we need to get better at navigating them. So here's how to do it. Here we go.

Philip Pape: 14:11

All right, first, I want you to design a plan with flexibility built in from the start, and that means guidelines instead of rules, ranges instead of targets, identifying your non-negotiables, but being flexible everywhere else. That is the kind of plan that I put together for you when you join Physique University or you work with me as a client, in that we give you yeah, we give you some protein and protein, or we give you some macro and calorie targets, but actually I don't even give you targets technically, we have you use an app that will determine the right targets for you flexibly based on your metabolism as it changes. So already we're getting more flexible. I also don't want you to hit the numbers. I want you to get a minimum protein, but then stay within a wide range for your fats and carbs and a range for your calories, right. I also want to allow you to eat all the things that you love to eat whenever you want to eat them, as long as you're sticking within the overall guidelines for your overall diet, that is flexibility. That is flexibility. That means you can eat whatever foods you want and as long as you're eating largely whole, nutritious foods with plenty of protein and fiber. Right, hitting those minimums, getting into those ranges, but not hitting the exact targets, you're going to be good. So instead of saying I have to eat 2000 calories every day because that's my target, you're going to say well, first of all, let's look at it across a week. If I'm aiming for, say, 14,000 calories for the week, I just want to get close to that for the week. So I can go, you know, 1700 one day, 2300 the next, no big deal. I've got some up and down flexibility and then at the end of the week if I found that I was too far off one direction or the other. That's just data that I know I can adjust from and it acknowledges the reality of the blue line right from the beginning.

Philip Pape: 15:46

The second thing you're going to do is have decision-making frameworks for common scenarios for you, things that all you know are going to happen. Right, the goal is not to eliminate those, it's to intelligently foresee them and navigate around them or through them. For example, you could develop your strategy for eating at restaurants. Super common, everyone goes to restaurants, like 99% of people do, right? So what are you going to do? Are you going to download the menu ahead of time and pick what you want and pre-log it? Are you going to look at the calories and macros if it's like a chain restaurant or get something similar to that? Are you going to look at the calories and macros if it's like a chain restaurant or get something similar to that? Are you going to have just a simple plan of I'm going to start from my vegetables, then lean protein, then carbs, I'm going to have two drinks, no more. Or I'm going to have non-alcoholic beer right, you just have a strategy because you know you're going to the restaurant. So I don't want you to go there with no strategy and then the next day say I went to a restaurant, couldn't help myself. Or the reason I went over my calories and macros is because I went to a restaurant.

Philip Pape: 16:47

Well, you didn't have a strategy, right? Same thing goes for any social event, a party. We just had my wife's birthday and I knew for a fact I'd be eating cake and I'd be eating leftover cake for the next few days. So, guess what? That cake goes into my plan ahead of time and now I know what's left for the rest of the day, right, you know when you're going to have periods of high stress, the things for your kids you know play or sporting event or when you're going on vacation. You know that 90% of these things you know. And for the things you don't, you probably are 90% confident that they're going to happen at some point. Like you know, your friend's going to ask you out on some given day. So have a strategy, right? And when I work with clients, we like practice these scenarios, we try to role play. Or I will ask them what would you do when this happens? And let's talk about your vacation in a month rather than, you know, tomorrow, the vacation starting tomorrow. Let's give it some time and build confidence and competence about those scenarios. So with that, let me share some practical strategies, of course, for implementing the blue line approach, because that's what we're all about.

Philip Pape: 17:49

So strategy number one is having a clear hierarchy of your priorities. So what this means is list out on a piece of paper or in a note app the order of things as they are in terms of importance to you. So what is the most important thing? Is it your strength training? Yes, that is part of your nutrition, believe it or not? Threw you for a loop there, I know, or did I. Is it your protein intake? Is it your overall energy balance? You know your calories and the deficit or surplus you're trying to be in. Is it the whole food consumption? Like, maybe you are eating a lot of processed foods or going out a lot and your goal is to shift more toward the whole foods for the nutrients and for the satiety right. Any one of those might deserve more of your attention than just trying to hit exact numbers. In fact, they always will.

Philip Pape: 18:40

So create a hierarchy of your priorities. I don't talk about this a lot because sometimes we think of these as pillars, that we have to do all of them, but in reality we should do one at a time to start, unless you're working with a coach or a support system where you can really fall back on that as you slip along the way, which is going to happen at first. I would just do one at a time and then you can make better real-time decisions when the deviations occur, because you'll know which aspect of the plan you're going to protect most fiercely, like if training's at the top. You know that that's going to affect all the other decisions around it in terms of your schedule and what you're doing for your training. So that gives you the flexibility elsewhere in all the rest of your schedule or all the rest of your plan, because you're protecting the one thing that is most important right now, and for food-wise, for nutrition-wise, this could be definitely protein intake. Right, that might be the thing that you're going to fiercely protect, no matter what. That's number one Strategy.

Philip Pape: 19:41

Number two is I alluded to this with Whole Foods, but it's the 80-20 principle. We come back to this a lot, but it's because it's super simple and powerful and it's the rule of thumb that if you aim for 80% adherence to whatever it is your core principles, then you have 20% flexibility your core principles, then you have 20% flexibility. Yes, this applies to the whole foods versus anything else, but it also applies to 80% consistency to your protein, 80% consistency to the calories, and it'd be when, when we say consistency, we don't mean, um, like 80% of the week, you try to hit your calories and then the other 20% you go hog wild with, like cheat meals. That's not what we're talking about. We're just saying you know you're going to try to adhere but in reality it's not going to be perfect. So give yourself an 80% goal is my point, and however you want to define that 80%. So, for example, if you eat four meals a day across seven days that's 28 meals in the week then that means 22 or three of those meals are going to align with your plan. If you have 80% and five to six of them may not right Again, it's not cheat meals, it's just building in adaptability. And you notice it's not a lot, it's five to six, but it's not zero either. You're not giving yourself a completely rigid approach. So that's strategy number two is apply 80, 20, wherever it makes sense.

Philip Pape: 21:05

Strategy number three this is if, then contingencies, pre-planned contingencies for common scenarios. Like you know that Christmas is going to come on December 25th, so why haven't you budgeted and saved up for the gifts instead of spending it on your credit card? Right, that would be what a financial person would chide you for. I'm the nutrition guy, but I know a little bit about finance. What I'm going to suggest is think about the situations that are most often derail your nutrition efforts, but are going to happen one way or the other. They either happen on a consistent basis or they happen randomly, but they happen and then come up with strategies for handling them.

Philip Pape: 21:43

So, if work dinners right, if you you know work maybe you're an executive, maybe you're a lawyer or something and you have to go treat customers or suppliers, take you out for dinner all the time or whatever and that's a challenge then you might have a standard approach developed ahead of time. You review the menu in advance, you decide on your meal before arriving, you pre-log it. You have a protein shake beforehand or some other lean protein earlier in the day. If you're concerned about portions etc. Having some sort of plan, you can come up with that plan. Right. That's flexibility too. You can come up with that whatever makes sense. If I'm your coach, I'm going to help you come up with that, but ultimately it's on what works for you, and that means you can navigate any deviation with confidence. Maybe not 100% of them, some things are going to surprise you, no matter what, but the vast majority of them you can foresee All right.

Philip Pape: 22:31

Strategy number four is what I call mindful deviation. So when you deviate from your plan. You will. You always will. You will many times. Except that I want you to deviate mindfully rather than reactively.

Philip Pape: 22:48

Somebody else called this a planned reaction. I think, or a what do they call this? A proactive reaction. It's a mindful deviation. It's a conscious choice. It's made with awareness as opposed to impulsively reacting to your circumstances. This could be anything from pattern interrupts to Having your priorities in your head that we talked about earlier and then acting on those, to taking a pause and thinking about the emotions going through your head. There's a lot of reasons, so I'll give you a specific example. Choosing to enjoy your grandmother's special brownies at a family gathering is very different from mindlessly eating cookies because they're in the break room at work, right? The former is a blue line adaptation. The latter is you're just getting knocked off course, you're just letting it happen. So even with deviations, they can be mindful, important distinction, all right.

Philip Pape: 23:42

And then strategy five is I want you to focus on the momentum rather than the adherence or the perfection, because if you think of the blue line approach, where we have a black line, that's a straight perfect line, and then we have this meandering blue line, that's reality. Remember that success is not defined by adhering to the black line. It's defined by your ability to maintain momentum right, even though it zigzags, even though you have inevitable deviations from the black line. You're going to end up near the black line, but you're going to deviate constantly. It's your ability to keep the line being drawn forward right. And so that means, for example, celebrate when you get through a challenging situation reasonably well, instead of beating yourself up for not handling it perfectly. Celebrate yourself for getting through it reasonably well. Celebrate yourself for getting through it reasonably well. It means quickly returning to your baseline after a deviation, right, getting up near that black line, but not necessarily on it, but close to it, rather than allowing one off-plan meal that you feel guilty about turn into an off-plan week. So think about it visually that blue line it starts to deviate away from the black line. That's your off-plan meal. Well, all you have to do is deviate back to the black line the next day, instead of continuing to go farther and farther away from the black line and going off the page.

Philip Pape: 25:04

And then kind of putting this all together is using data to refine your approach to all of these things over time. Right, you knew it would come back to data with me, didn't you? I mean, one of the most powerful aspects of this concept, this blue line concept, is it creates a feedback loop, because you are tracking both your plan, which is the black line, and you're tracking what happens, which is the blue line. Pretty cool, right? You're actually tracking what you intend to do and you're tracking what you actually do, and that gives you an idea of the gap and the insights so that you can keep improving. And the gap isn't something to beat yourself up over. It's an acknowledgement of reality and how you're able to navigate and how you can better navigate in the future.

Philip Pape: 25:44

So if you, for example, notice that you consistently struggle with late night snacking on work days very common that is valuable data. So instead of saying I'm going to try harder to resist, which is willpower, you might adjust your meal timing right To put a snack toward the end of the day to take care of your hunger. Or you might change the composition of your meals to have more fiber and vegetables to make you fuller, more protein in your dinner right. Whatever it takes to better manage evening hunger, other than dealing with emotional triggers and things like that as well, it may just be a simple solution like that that helps you get back near the black line. So I wanna talk about something counterintuitive here, related to this. That is directly from experience with clients.

Philip Pape: 26:34

Okay, as a nutrition coach, one of the most difficult things for me and the challenge that I fully embrace is getting clients to adopt this blue line approach to nutrition. Now, I haven't called it blue line before. I might start doing that, but there's this assumption that embracing flexibility means I'm going to slow down my progress, right? Well, if I deviate constantly, aren't I going to get fat loss slower? Right? Aren't my results going to be mediocre because I'm allowing for constantly getting off track? In reality, the opposite happens, because when you shift from a rigid, the black line mentality to the flexible blue line approach, your results usually accelerate, and the reason why is you're no longer caught in the cycle of perfect adherence followed by complete abandonment. You maintain consistent progress. That's all it comes down to. You don't do it perfectly, and that's the point. You do it consistently, though, and you keep doing it. The small, deliberate deviations that you allow prevent the massive unplanned deviations that derail your progress completely.

Philip Pape: 27:40

I think even more importantly is that the blue line approach helps you build skills, what are called progressive adaptation skills. Right, just like with training. Think about it. Just like with training, where progressive overload increases your strength and muscle over time, progressive adaptation with nutrition makes you more resilient, makes you more capable, makes you more skilled. You're going to be able to teach this stuff, my friends. If you work with me as a client, you are going to be able to come out the other end teaching other people how to do this, because you'll just know how to do it, and that's what I want for you. I want you to know how to do this, because you'll just know how to do it, and that's what I want for you. I want you to know how to do it. You can get some of that from this podcast, but you get a lot of that doing it yourself.

Philip Pape: 28:21

And so what happens is some wonderful side effects. Yes, you transform your body Great, we all want to do that but you also transform this relationship with food, because a lot of that relationship is tied up in the anxiety and those situations that cause the deviations. You no longer fear social situations because you're prepared, or going on a trip because you have the skills to navigate them. Food becomes a source of nourishment and fuel and enjoyment, yes, rather than anxiety and guilt. And then, probably most powerful of all just to wrap this up and then I'll shut up is when you do this, you stop identifying progress with perfection and then you understand that any path to any goal not just nutrition, anything in life it's not a straight black line, but it's a winding blue one. And not only is that okay, it's exactly how it should be, isn't that powerful? I'm exciting myself as I talk about this, because when I came across the image of the blue versus black lines, that oh, light bulb clicked, got to share this with my audience.

Philip Pape: 29:20

So if we bring this all together, the black line versus blue line concept shows us that in a complex environment AKA life success is not from perfectly following an idealized plan, but from navigating with skill that you develop over time, the inevitable deviations, the inevitable adaptations that are required, because it's the real world. So when we talk about adapting to your goals, your lifestyles, your preferences and all that which sometimes sounds like marketing speak, that's kind of what we're talking about. And when you apply it to nutrition, your approach changes, your mindset changes. You no longer try to be perfect, but instead you try to develop the skills, the strategies, the mindsets that allow you to maintain progress right. Maintain progress despite the complexities of real life, and you're not lowering your standards by doing this. You are not giving up on your goals. It's approaching those goals in a way that aligns with reality, rather than fighting against it, and building a sustainable approach. Boom, that's what it is. That is what sustainability is.

Philip Pape: 30:29

So I'm going to encourage you right now to examine your own approach to your nutrition. Are you caught in the trap of black line thinking, where any deviation feels like failure, or have you or will you embrace the blue line reality, where skillful navigation and adaptation lead to progress and lasting success? All right, if you enjoyed this concept, if you found it helpful. I'm all about frameworks. I'm all about systems and applying engineering-type principles to your nutrition and training, because they work. They reflect some of the most complex environments and situations in real life, and imagine if you can deal with your complex human body in the same way, with simple frameworks and systems that just finally help you break through and make it work.

Philip Pape: 31:17

If you want to do that, please join us in Physique University. Link in the show notes. You get a two-week free trial. Tons of goodies in there. We do masterclasses with guest experts. Now we do challenges every month. You've got courses. You've got a free custom nutrition plan when you join, put together by me. And remember that plan is the black line. The blue line is what we teach you Evidence-based. They work in the real world, not just on paper. You can get all the details. You can learn more Zero risk. Go to witsandweightscom. Slash physique or click the link in the show notes. All right until next time. This is Philip Pape reminding you to use your wits, lift those weights and remember that life is a meandering, flexible, adaptable blue line and if you follow it, you will get all of the results you ever dreamed of. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

8 Fat Loss Strategies if Your Metabolism is Really Low | Ep 305

Get your free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide to setup your diet, calories, macros, meal timing/frequency, and more for fat loss, muscle building, and maintenance or go to witsandweights.com/free

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Is your metabolism REALLY low?

If you've been doing everything right... strength training consistently, eating well, walking 8-10K steps daily, managing stress and sleep...

Yet your metabolism seems stubbornly slower than everyone else's...

This episode will help you create a successful fat loss plan that works with your unique metabolic constraints rather than fighting against them.

Main Takeaways:

• Some people genuinely have lower metabolisms due to factors beyond their control

• Your body's "calories out" equation can vary dramatically between individuals

• Strategic food choices can maximize satiety even on lower calorie budgets

• The psychological approach to a slower metabolism matters as much as tactics

• Success comes from designing around constraints rather than fighting against them

Timestamps:

3:10 - The key factors behind metabolic variation
10:32 - Systems thinking
11:29 - Food satiety/volume
14:13 - Nutrient quality
15:44 - Protein considerations
16:46 - Calorie cycling
19:46 - Meal timing
22:27 - Food environment
23:24 - Training-recovery balance with limited energy
24:26 - Daily movement
25:22 - Expectations

When Fat Loss Feels Impossible Due to a Slower Metabolism

If you're eating well, lifting consistently, walking every day, managing stress and sleep, and still feel like fat loss is glacial—you might be dealing with a genuinely low metabolism. You're not broken, and you're definitely not imagining it. Some people truly burn fewer calories than others, even when their habits are dialed in. The real question is: what can you do about it?

This isn't about metabolic myths or fixing a broken metabolism. It's about working with the body you have and creating a sustainable fat loss system that respects your physiology.

Why Your Metabolism Might Be Lower Than Average

Let’s get something straight first. Energy balance still applies. Calories in vs. calories out is real. But here’s the nuance: calories out isn't the same for everyone. You could be doing all the right things and still burn fewer calories than someone else your size.

Here are five major reasons why:

1. Genetics

Your DNA can account for a 10–20% difference in resting metabolic rate (RMR) between people of the same size and composition. Mitochondrial efficiency, hormone sensitivity, and family patterns all play a role here.

2. Metabolic Adaptation

If you've dieted aggressively or yo-yoed in the past, your body may have adapted by conserving energy. Think of it like your metabolism learning to run on less, which is great for survival but tough for fat loss.

3. Physiological Efficiency

Some people are just really good at extracting energy from food and moving efficiently. It sounds great until you realize it means you burn fewer calories doing the same things as others.

4. Hormonal Differences

Variations in thyroid function, insulin sensitivity, and sex hormones can all subtly (or significantly) impact energy expenditure.

5. Body Size

If you’re a smaller individual—especially petite women—you naturally require fewer calories to maintain your body weight. That means fat loss must be even more precise.

8 Fat Loss Strategies When Your Metabolism Is Low

Rather than fighting your physiology, let’s design around it. Here are eight evidence-based strategies that can help.

1. Prioritize High-Satiety, Low-Calorie-Density Foods

Think lean proteins, high-fiber veggies, fruit (like oranges), white potatoes, stews, soups, stir-fries. These foods give you the most fullness per calorie. You’re creating volume and satisfaction without going over your calorie target.

2. Maximize Nutrient Density

When your calorie budget is limited, every bite needs to count. Focus on micronutrient-rich foods like fatty fish, organ meats, leafy greens, cruciferous vegetables, berries, and eggs. Your body will respond better when it’s nourished.

3. Increase Protein Intake

Go beyond the standard 0.7–1g/lb body weight. Aim for 1.2–1.5g/lb if you can, especially if you're in a deficit. Protein boosts thermogenesis, enhances satiety, and helps you hold onto muscle while dieting.

4. Use Calorie Cycling or Refeeds

Alternating lower and higher calorie days (especially tied to your training schedule) can improve sustainability. It doesn’t boost metabolism per se, but it makes the process more livable. Structured diet breaks every 6–12 weeks can also help.

5. Optimize Meal Timing and Frequency

Smaller feeding windows (e.g. 11am–5pm) may help some folks feel more satisfied on lower calories. Others might benefit from frequent mini meals to stabilize energy. Track your hunger, energy, and mood to find what works.

6. Dial In Your Food Environment

You have less room for "error," so reducing decision fatigue matters. Meal prep, structure your fridge and pantry, plan social events, and keep tempting ultra-processed foods out of sight if they derail you.

7. Match Training to Recovery

You don’t need to train less, but you do need smart programming. That means purposeful sessions with manageable fatigue. If you’re always wiped, you might need to cut volume or train fewer days. Recovery fuels progress.

8. Squeeze More NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis)

If you're already walking 8–10k steps, try adding 2–4k more through movement snacks, post-meal walks, standing desks, or even carrying groceries one bag at a time. It adds up.

Mindset Is the Secret Weapon

Fat loss with a low metabolism is more of a mental game than a physical one. You may have to accept slower progress, more meticulous tracking, and tighter margins. But here's the upside: this often leads to better, longer-lasting results.

Clients I’ve worked with who had extremely low maintenance calories (and I mean 1300–1500 for maintenance) still achieved jaw-dropping body composition changes. But we focused on process, not the scale. We built muscle. We tracked everything. We got creative.

If that’s you, keep this in mind: your metabolism isn’t a problem. It’s just a constraint. And constraints are what systems are designed to solve.

If you want help building your personal system, start with my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide. It’s the foundation for every advanced strategy I talk about on the show.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been doing everything right strength training, consistently eating, well walking, 8-10,000 steps daily, managing your stress and sleep yet your metabolism seems stubbornly slower than everyone else's. You're not alone and you're not imagining it. Some people genuinely have lower metabolic rates, despite doing everything by the book. The truth is that traditional calorie deficit approaches that work for most people might be leaving you feeling miserable, hungry and watching your strength plummet when you're already eating what feels like next to nothing. Today, we're going to understand why some people have inherently lower energy expenditure and how to design around this metabolic constraint. You'll learn how to create a fat loss system that works specifically for your unique physiology without requiring extreme restriction or endless cardio. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're talking about a situation that frustrates many of my clients and listeners, and that is having a genuinely lower-than-average metabolism, despite following all the right habits. So this isn't about metabolism myths or misconceptions, or also how to support your metabolism when you haven't done all the things. We actually covered that in episode 302, the one right before this, about why your metabolism declines with age and what to do about it, and that is a very good foundational episode if you're kind of new to this and wondering where to start, but today is okay. You've done the things and I still have a much lower than average metabolism, and so what this is about is acknowledging that there are significant genetic and physiological variations between human beings. Right, that just genetics alone will cause differences, and some people simply burn fewer calories at rest and during activity than others, even when controlling for body size, muscle mass, what they call fat-free mass and activity levels. What is pretty exciting, though, is that once you acknowledge the reality right, facts are facts, and once we analyze it like an engineer we analyze it systematically, understand what's going on we can design fat loss approaches that work with your body's unique constraints, instead of fighting against them, like I've helped many clients do who've had this exact issue Before we get into it. Of course, if you want to take that first step toward understanding your metabolism and how to accurately track and adjust your nutrition for your unique needs, again, this episode is really a more advanced topic, but if you're trying to take that first step or you want a refresher, download my free Nutrition 101 Guide for Body Composition. The link is in the show notes. Totally free, it gives you the foundation you need to implement even the basic two advanced strategies that we'll discuss today. It's a game changer. So go to witsandweightscom, slash free or just click the link in the show notes to download my Flexible Dieting Nutrition 101 for Body Composition Guide.

Philip Pape: 3:10

All right, so let's start by talking about why some people have lower metabolic rates despite what I'll call optimal habits. And this is crucial because, assuming you've got all the habits in place and that's a big assumption, right? Sometimes people have done all the things and yet they haven't. They still have a lot of chronic stress and they don't realize it. Or the way they respond to stress is really causing their cortisol to go haywire, and that is what's preventing them from losing fat. Assuming you've optimized everything, understanding the why behind the remaining constraints will no-transcript episode.

Philip Pape: 4:11

I've identified the five primary reasons why your metabolism might be genuinely lower than average, despite following the advice. First and foremost is just genetics, and it's not something we can control, right? Research shows that as much as a 10 to 20% difference can be found in resting metabolic rate between individuals of similar size, age and body composition, and that's not a small variance, right? That's not nothing. That's the difference between someone needing 1,800 calories for maintenance versus, say, 2,200 calories for maintenance versus, say, 2200 calories for maintenance. And these are encoded in our DNA. It affects a lot of things. It affects our mitochondrial efficiency, which I talked about on the last episode. It affects our hormone sensitivity, meaning like you might metabolically adapt more aggressively as soon as you start going on a diet because of how sensitive your hormones are. And if your parents, if your siblings, also struggle with similar issues, there definitely could be a genetic component at play. Not always right. A lot of us just have family who they don't know what to do and they've kind of let themselves go. They're sedentary, they don't train all of that and don't always read genetics into that. But you do know that there are differences between individuals just doing the same things and at the same body size.

Philip Pape: 5:30

The second factor is adaptive thermogenesis, or metabolic adaptation, we call it, and this is history-based. What I mean by that is, if you've been through periods of significant dieting and calorie restriction in the past, especially chronically restrictive diets or yo-yo dieting your body may have developed a I'll call it persistent, not permanent, that's. That's I gotta be careful of my words, but kind of a persistent, long-term, deeply embedded and developed metabolic adaptation. Right, and we know this from the extremes, like the Biggest Loser show. That was a game show where contestants lost a ton of weight really fast and their metabolisms adapted and when they went back to eating the normal amount of food for their maintenance, their maintenance calories were way lower than they were before and they persisted for years after the diet ended. And so your body essentially becomes more efficient at conserving energy, which is great for survival when there's a famine, right, but it's frustrating when you're trying to get a certain body composition in the modern environment. So it's good to understand that your history is going to play into this. You can't change history, it is what it is, but just understand that.

Philip Pape: 6:43

The third factor out of five is physiological efficiency, and this means this this is also kind of a genetic thing, right? Some people, um, just extract more energy from food and then they conserve more energy when they're active. Your body might have more efficient digestive enzymes, more efficient mitochondria and less energy wasted as heat. Okay, so that means you're like. It sounds great, except the problem is it means you're not going to burn very many calories. It is great for survival. It's an advantage. It's a disadvantage when you're trying to lose fat, when you're trying to get rid of energy. So I guess the positive reframe on that is you're an efficient beast, but unfortunately it makes it a little harder to lose fat. I get it.

Philip Pape: 7:27

The fourth factor is hormonal factors. Right, we never want to blame hormones, but we do want to understand there are variations in people's thyroid function, their insulin sensitivity, their sex hormone levels. Some of these are because of your history and because of your lifestyle. Others are simply genetic differences. And remember that the normal clinical range is not always the best indicator of the optimal range, right, and the optimal range for you might also be different than someone else's optimal range, and that can cause differences in energy expenditure. So if someone, for example, who's at the lower end of normal thyroid function might burn significantly fewer calories than someone at the upper end, whether that means you need treatment or not, that's a medical decision that you want to find a competent expert to talk to about, but it may be genetics as well. And then, finally, your body size is going to matter. If you're smaller framed, you're going to burn fewer calories, like you might have smaller bones, smaller organs just be small in general as a person. So this is like petite women. Okay, I've had clients or women they tend to be a little bit more challenging clients just because everything is at a smaller level of change.

Philip Pape: 8:38

Um, the sensitivity is is kind of, I guess, smaller in a way, uh, in that they're already in a light body weight and sometimes a lean body fat, and so, uh, any standard approach or standard calorie recommendation might be completely off the wall for them and have nothing to do with what they really need. And you got to be careful and not say, oh, you're at 1100 calories in your diet, that's really, I've heard, that's really low. Well, if you're 110 pound female five, five, two that might be more than enough calories for you at maintenance. I don't know Right, and in society where we eat food and we have certain amounts of meals and food, you know, meals are a certain size and all this it can be frustrating for them because they feel like they're eating way less than other people, but really they're eating what their body says they need and it's the size they were born with. So we have to deal with that.

Philip Pape: 9:27

Now I want to address a common objection I hear when discussing this topic because often people will say you know, people say, but that violates the laws of thermodynamics, right? Or calories in calories out still applies, and I'm I'm the biggest advocate for acknowledging that energy balance is reality. Right, and both those statements are true that energy balance governs weight loss. But the key uh insight here is that your body's calories outside of the equation is what can be dramatically different from person to person, and it can change a lot even when all observable behaviors are identical. Right, and people get hung up on calories in calories out as if it's fixed Obviously calories in is what you eat, but calories out is vastly variable, based on a lot of factors. Right, so it's not like energy is appearing or disappearing magically. Right, conservation of energy thermodynamics it's recognizing that the, the system, the body system efficiency varies significantly between people. Okay, so hopefully I've gotten that message through without rambling too much on it.

Philip Pape: 10:32

But this is where a systems-based approach becomes even more invaluable. The thing that we teach here and that I offer clients and what we work through it is not just cookie cutter diets and just random programs and YouTube influencers and all that that. None of that stuff works for most people, especially people who have to really dial in due to a lower metabolism. And if you think of a system, right, systems have constraints. They have efficiencies. When we can't change the core efficiency of the system, which is your metabolism, when we can't change that, like the core level of it right, I'm not talking about your overall TDE, the things we can change but when you can't change the core, we want to design around that, we want to acknowledge that and we optimize the other variables and then create what I'll call like redundant systems that don't rely exclusively on the constrained component. And you're like what the hell are you talking about? Okay, let me get into it. So let me get into how we apply this.

Philip Pape: 11:29

All right, we're going to create a fat loss system for someone with a lower metabolism, and for some reason this is the week of eights, because on the last episode, I talked about eight strategies for preventing metabolism decline with age. Today, we're going to talk about eight strategies for a fat loss system for a low metabolism. All right, the first four are going to focus on optimizing nutrition without requiring extreme calorie restriction. This is a really important topic because what most people do is they just feel like they just have to cut calories to a ridiculous level when they have a low metabolism. You don't have to.

Philip Pape: 12:06

Strategy number one is high satiety, high volume, low energy density foods. I know for some of you that sounds obvious, but a lot of you are not doing this. Even if you don't have a low metabolism, this is a game changer. This means building your diet around foods that create the maximum fullness signal with the minimum calorie input Lean proteins think chicken breast, white fish, egg whites, shrimp, tuna, those kinds of things, lean pork, et cetera. Even very lean beef are up on this list. High fiber vegetables and fruits. High resistant starch foods like white potatoes. One of the most high satiety fruits is orange. When you eat the whole orange not the rind, obviously, but don't have orange juice, eat the orange. The goal is strategically increase your food volume without increasing calorie intake. Think of large salads, vegetables, soups, stews, stir fries you know dishes that take up a lot of stomach space relative to their calorie content.

Philip Pape: 13:05

I did an episode on that recently. Go hunt for it. It's in the last few weeks or reach out to me. It was all about that. It was all about it was actually called um when eat eating less. Sorry, let me think about this Eating more to lose weight actually works. That's what it was, and it was the idea that you're actually eating more volume, you're not eating more calories.

Philip Pape: 13:24

So I have I have several clients I can think of who are kind of struggling with that low maintenance intake, even after we've bumped it up a bit. They're building weight, they're, you know, walking, they're doing all the things, and what we had to do is just acknowledge they needed a lot more high satiety and high fiber foods, a lot more protein as well relative to the normal recommendation. And then they and by they I mean men and women. I can think of one woman in particular who was actually on the podcast recently, melanie, you could go check out her episode we're able to and by they I mean men and women. I can think of one woman in particular who was actually on the podcast recently Melanie, you could go check out her episode we're able to create this modest deficit and not feel deprived. We can't necessarily create an aggressive deficit because of the calorie levels, or else you get into that point of where the hunger signals really get triggered a lot, but we could at least have a modest deficit and slowly lose fat over time and still feel satisfied, all right.

Philip Pape: 14:13

So you can start your meal with, for example, a large volume of vegetables and then follow it by lean protein and then have the starchy carbs and fats at the end of the meal, for example. The sequence of how you eat can be really helpful. So that's strategy number one. Strategy number two is nutrient density, maximizing nutrient density. So this might sound the same as volume and there is mathematically a similarity. But you've got to think about it this way when your calorie budget's limited, you want every calorie to work harder for you.

Philip Pape: 14:43

So when I say nutrients, I'm actually talking about micronutrients, right, and so if you can select foods rich in micronutrients and high quality protein, it's going to support your training performance, your muscle retention, your cravings, your satiety, just having more nutrients in your diet, because your body kind of knows when it's deficient. It's not as precise and targeted as people think like, oh, I crave vitamin E or whatever. Evidence doesn't quite support that, whatever Evidence doesn't quite support that. But you do get more satisfied and support many of these hunger signals with more nutrient-dense foods, and that might be introducing things like organ meats, fatty fish, leafy greens, berries, cruciferous vegetables, eggs. All of these are what some people call superfoods I don't like that term because there's no good or bad foods, but they are super in terms of their nutrient density. So actually, somebody I had on the show, dr Sarah Ballantyne, wrote a book called Nutrivor great book, and she actually ranks a lot of foods based on their nutrient score. So that could be another way to look at it.

Philip Pape: 15:44

All right, strategy number three is I alluded to this already but slightly higher or a lot higher protein intake than the standard recommendation. So my standard recommendation and what the evidence shows is 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of body weight. I would shoot that up to maybe 1.2, as much as 1.5. Now the problem with going too high is you leave very few calories for carbs and fats. So it really is a fine dance between the macros. And again, all of this is for somebody who knows what they're doing, who's tracking, who can be pretty consistent with this. Otherwise you're going to drive yourself crazy and you really have to go back to the basics first and not even try to lose fat potentially until you've dialed those in. So we know protein is the highest dermic effect of food. Your body burns more calories digesting it. We know that higher protein intake enhances muscle retention. We know it promotes greater satiety. All the things you got to get with protein. I feel like I've talked about this so much recently. If you're listening to even two episodes, you'll get plenty of it. So increasing protein above the normal could be helpful.

Philip Pape: 16:46

Strategy number four is calorie cycling and refeeds. So normally I would not recommend calorie cycling, carb cycling, even refeeds to newer people following a fat loss plan. Refeeds I might like making Saturday and Sunday a little bit higher days than the other days, but I mean strategic refeeds, like bringing up your carbs so your calories are all the way to your maintenance right, not just a little bit higher, but like a lot higher, literally taking a break, um. But you could also have calorie cycling within the week and kind of line it up with your training, line it up with your hunger signals. I've definitely had clients who have to do that just to, because the calories are so low that their body really feels the difference. And if you can support your training and recovery the most, the rest of it kind of works out, if you will.

Philip Pape: 17:34

It doesn't work for everyone. Some people need the same calorie intake every day, but others can alternate between low and high calorie days, usually by changing carbs, and it will minimize I don't want to say it minimizes metabolic adaptation. It's going to slow the rate of fat loss down right, unless your low days are even lower, which I don't recommend. But it's going to feel even more sustainable and you'll be consistent and be able to continue getting the result without just feeling like you're kind of crashing all the time. Because the alternative, if you're going to have the same calories every day might be like you're not quite in a big enough deficit but you're also not quite at maintenance and so you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot by not getting movement. You know your body adapts to the food and you feel like you're dieting but you're not getting the result. It makes sense. So sometimes having the lower and the higher, where the lower is more aggressive and the higher is closer to a refeed or somewhere in between, it's really going to depend. You've got to experiment with it. It's going to really help you push forward sustainably. It might look like four to five days at a deficit and then two to three days of maintenance. It might be three days in an aggressive deficit and four days of maintenance or no days of maintenance. Maybe they're all dieting days, but some are just more aggressive than others. And again, usually where the carbs are placed around training sessions.

Philip Pape: 18:57

Kind of related to this, actually, as part of the strategy, is structured diet breaks. So hold on, let me look at my list, my notes here. Yeah, so I'm including this. I'm including this here. So diet breaks are like an entire week, or even an entire month, every six weeks, 12 weeks, whatever you need to just recover from the stress of dieting mentally and physically before you continue, just to keep it sustainable. It's not going to change your metabolism in any way, but you might have. You know, you're going to have some improvements in your hormones, your energy, your training performance during that phase. So if you can hit it a little bit harder, you actually do get a net benefit for the overall fat loss phase. So that's the nutrition side, the first four strategies. The next four are going to be about activity and recovery and some of the psychological factors, so I'm kind of lumping them all together into the final four.

Philip Pape: 19:46

So this gives us a strategy number five and that is meal frequency and timing. So when you are on these tighter calories with a lower metabolism, the meal pattern is going to really have to line with your natural hunger signals and your energy needs. This is a form of intuition, but combined with tracking and measuring that intuition, if that makes sense, right? So in other words, you need to understand when and why you get hunger. You need to understand when and why you have high or low energy. It's not just I feel this way and so I'm going to kind of uh, wing it, right You're, you want to journal it, track it, write it down, check it off, whatever makes sense for you. Use a number scale. It's a form of tracking for you. When you have the lower metabolism, to compliment your tracking of food in your training, right, my clients all track a lot of this stuff anyway. So, again, if you just want somebody to help you do that and give you a plan and say here's what you need to do that's why somebody would work with me or join our Physique University.

Philip Pape: 20:42

But look, when you have a lower metabolic rate, you've got to get more creative you might find that you need some form of a feeding fasting window. I've never, ever said intermittent fasting can't work for somebody. I hope you know that. I do say that it's not necessary for most people and it creates no different result from a calorie perspective than any other feeding window, but from a hunger signal, satisfaction and consistency perspective, you might need a tighter feeding window because the calories are lower. So then you might have, like, your first meal at 11 am and your last meal at 5 pm, with a meal in between. Each of those meals can then be bigger. Your body adapts to having the fasting window and it's more sustainable. So fewer, larger meals feel more satisfied, trigger the fullness hormones and so on, and you're able to maintain your calorie level and feel good about it.

Philip Pape: 21:32

Having said that, the fasting window needs to be intelligently aligned with your training, so you're not training fasted. That's my biggest caveat on that. Now you might be on the opposite extreme and you might benefit from more frequent smaller meals to maintain stable energy throughout the day right, and this is more of the blood sugar control and you might need that little bit of a hit of the meal to kind of just stay satisfied all day. What did I want to go with this? So I'm telling you a lot of stuff, but the main thing here is experiment. You can't just track your food, but you have to track hunger, energy, mood, training, performance, right and connect them to your meal patterns to identify what works best. You know some clients that have lower metabolisms use fasting and others hate it. Right, so, like it depends on what works for you, all right.

Philip Pape: 22:27

Strategy number six this is about diet quality and your food environment. So when you have a lower metabolic rate, you have a smaller margin for error when it comes to the highly palatable, ultra processed, the calorie dense foods that can easily lead to over consuming those foods, and so creating an environment that supports adhering to the fat loss phase becomes even more paramount. Right, meal prepping, limiting the availability of foods that would tempt you in your house or, at least in eyesight, having a plan for social situations where you're going to have a lot of calorie dense options. Notice, I'm not telling you to not enjoy those foods. I'm telling you that you need to be creative with setting yourself up for your environmental success and reducing decision fatigue so you can enjoy those foods on occasion, knowing the ultimate quantity is not gonna be as high as someone else with a higher metabolism. It's just the state of things. All right.

Philip Pape: 23:24

Strategy number seven has to do with your recovery and training volume. So when your calories are low and I know this from personal experience right now because I'm in a fat loss phase and totally understand my calories are still higher than the people we're talking about in this episode. You can get wiped. You've got to balance your training stimulus with a recovery capacity, and it doesn't mean training less or less frequently, but it does mean making sure that every training session has a clear purpose, gives you a very precise outcome and that your recovery between sessions is prioritized right. What you don't want is excessive fatigue building up from overtraining, which then reduces your other activity levels and then decreases your expenditure even further. You might have to reduce yes, you might have to reduce some volume, but it might be more about focusing on the intensity of that training, the load of the training, the progression. Maybe you need to do three instead of four days. Maybe you need to do six instead of three, you know and spread out the recovery.

Philip Pape: 24:26

It's really going to depend on you at creative ways to increase your need even further. And I know you're like oh, really Like even if you're already getting eight to 10,000 steps every day, can you add another two or three or four in some achievable, sustainable way? Right, that you're not already taking advantage of Now. If you're getting eight to 10,000, that's a meaningful amount, but I know you could push to 12 or 14 with a little extra effort, unless you just absolutely don't have time and no capability to do that, in which case you've got to evaluate whether you should be in a fat loss phase or even trying to do it as aggressively as you are. But we're talking short walks after meals, using a standing desk, taking movement breaks during work, even finding ways to be less efficient with your task right, multiple trips to carry groceries instead of carrying everything at once. I mean little hacks like that sometimes work.

Philip Pape: 25:22

So those are the eight strategies, and I think the thing that's going to be the crucial glue that binds it all together is your mindset toward this process. It has to be. It has to be so. I've worked with several clients who have very, very low metabolic rates and I found that their psychological approach is going to determine their success way more than any of the tactics, because sometimes you're doing all the tactics and very little moves on the needle and then it slowly starts to move right and it's like you have to have that. I don't want to call it discipline, but I want to call it a positive mindset that the process is the most important thing and the outcome is going to come from the process, and so this means you have to adjust your expectations. I'm sorry, you just have to adjust your expectations and be realistic, right? You need to recognize that having a lower expenditure does not indicate poor health. It doesn't indicate you're a failure. It just requires you to be more strategic. And so any common fat loss advice out there to cut X number of calories and lose a pound a week or whatever, it might mean an unbearably low intake for you and that's not for you. So you might have to accept a more modest deficit, a slower rate of fat loss, and then you're still going to have better long-term outcomes when you do that.

Philip Pape: 26:39

Go listen to the podcast with Melanie. She dropped eight and a half percent body fat. The actual pounds loss wasn't that much, but she built muscle at the same time. If we were just thinking about weight loss, man, that would have been so frustrating. I would have not wanted to keep working with her as a coach because I would have thought I was a total failure. But because we were tracking all the different things and focusing on the process, we got incredible results for what you wanted, right, and it takes time. It takes time. So think about all the things we talked about today Embracing the process instead of the outcome.

Philip Pape: 27:10

Right, don't just fixate on the scale. Build your system. Are you being consistent? You know at least 80% with the things that you care about, whether that's protein, training, recovery, whatever. Those are the things in your control. Right, the outcome is not in your control. It will result from the things you're in control, but that's what's in your control.

Philip Pape: 27:27

All right, let's recap the main points. Yes, some people genuinely have lower metabolic rates, even when you're doing everything. Right, you are not a failure. It is a physiological constraint period. It is just the facts, ma'am. And if you implement the eight strategies we've discussed high satiety foods, nutrient density, protein higher than average, calorie cycling if needed, meal timing, your food environment, balancing your training and recovery and finding ways to move even more you can create the system that works with you.

Philip Pape: 27:59

So, remember, the mental piece is probably as important as all these. It kind of puts them all together. Adjust your expectations, embrace a sustainable, lasting approach and focus on process-oriented goals instead of outcomes. Right, it's not a life sentence. I mean, no matter who you are. We don't want to spend that much time fat loss dieting, and by not much time it's going to depend. It might mean six months, it might mean three months, it might be nine months the first time, and then, once you get there, you can maintain your leanness and focus on energy performance, building muscle.

Philip Pape: 28:30

You're going to you're going to achieve your goals. You're going to achieve your excuse me body composition goals. You just have to have a thoughtful, personalized strategy that is more creative than what might work for, say, the average metabolism. All right. So if you enjoyed today's episode and you want to start implementing the basics before you get to the more advanced strategies, download my free guide Nutrition 101 for Body Composition. It's going to help you establish the foundational habits that make these strategies even more effective. Go to whatsoeightscom or click the link in the show notes to get your copy. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your unique metabolism isn't something to fight against, but a key constraint to design around in your personalized physique system. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Constraint to Design Around in your Personalized Physique System. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

You’re Doing Everything Right… So Why Is Your Body Stuck? (Adam Badger) | Ep 304

You’re tracking your macros, crushing your lifts, and doing everything right. So why aren’t you seeing results? What’s holding you back?

I bring on Adam Badger to dig deep into how stress can completely override even the best fitness strategies. We talk about strategies on how to break plateaus, uncover emotional patterns that sabotage progress, and build habits to manage stress.

Adam Badger is a fitness coach and founder of Badger Strength. With over a decade of experience and hundreds of transformations under his belt, Adam focuses on helping everyday people improve physically and mentally by addressing the emotional side of fitness. His no-BS approach makes him a master at uncovering the hidden reasons clients struggle, even when they’re doing “everything right.”

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:34 - The three “I”s: Impatience, Improvement, and Intervention
05:57 - Why even the best programs fail when stress goes unaddressed
09:36 - Use task tracking instead of weight tracking to build momentum
13:49 - Are hormones the issue—or is it something deeper?
17:22 - How small tracking mistakes (like apple juice!) block fat loss
20:20 - Why your perception of stress matters more than the stress itself
25:48 - The 4-step framework to manage chronic stress
29:20 - Step 2: Identifying your emotional root causes
33:29 - Why you may have a hidden victim mindset (and what to do)
43:06 - Proactive vs. reactive tools to regulate stress
48:45 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Overcoming Stress Workshop Recording

• Ep 183 (“Life Update After My Near-Death Experience”)

• Instagram: @coachadam_b 

• Email: abadger@badgerstrength.com
  

When Fat Loss Progress Stalls Even Though You’re Doing Everything Right

You’re hitting your macros. You’re lifting consistently. You’re doing your steps, managing sleep, staying off the booze—and still, the scale won’t budge and your body feels stuck. This episode is for the person who's convinced they’ve been doing everything “right”… yet results are inconsistent, slow, or non-existent.

If that’s you, you’re not lazy, broken, or crazy. But you might be missing what today’s guest, Adam Badger, calls the “invisible” factor blocking progress.

The Real Reasons You’re Not Seeing Results (Even If You’re Doing It All)

You might be tracking, lifting, walking, and sleeping—and still not losing fat or feeling better. Here’s a mindset framework Adam uses with his clients to break down what’s really going on: the three I’s.

Impatience

You’re doing the work. It’s going well. But it’s only been three weeks, and your expectations haven’t been met yet. For most people, that’s not a failure in consistency—it’s a failure in patience.

This shows up as:

• Comparing your timeline to someone else’s

• Expecting daily or weekly drops in scale weight

• Feeling frustrated even when you’re nailing your habits

If this is you, the fix is less about tactics and more about zooming out. What’s your real reason for doing this? If it’s just to see a number drop, you're likely to stay stuck.

Improvement

This is the “I’m 90% compliant… but not really” zone.

It might look like:

• Tracking perfectly Monday through Thursday, but forgetting the wine, snacks, or takeout on the weekend

• “Lifting” at the gym but never progressing the weight, reps, or technique

• Logging your food but missing the bites, licks, and sips

In this case, it’s not that you’re doing everything right—it’s that your perception of compliance doesn’t match reality. And that means we need to improve the process, not overhaul it.

Intervention

You’re patient. You’re compliant. You’ve been at this for 6 months. And you’re still stuck.

Now we look deeper.

What Might Be Blocking Progress? The Hidden Variable: Chronic Stress

When you’ve ruled out impatience and execution, the last—and often overlooked—culprit is chronic stress. Not just work stress. All stress.

Why Stress Slows Progress

Stress influences energy balance in multiple ways:

• Suppresses appetite or leads to emotional eating (or both)

• Decreases motivation and energy for training

• Increases water retention, masks fat loss on the scale

• Affects sleep quality, recovery, hormone balance

But here’s the thing: it’s not the amount of stress that always matters—it’s your perception of it.

The 4-Step System to Handle Chronic Stress

Adam breaks this down into a usable process for anyone who wants to identify and fix stress as a fat loss roadblock.

1. Identify Your Chronic Stressors

These fall into three buckets:

• Psychological: career pressure, parenting, imposter syndrome, social comparison

• Physical: overtraining, undertraining, poor sleep, chronic pain

• Metabolic: thyroid, gut health, autoimmune issues

Write them down. Get specific. Awareness is step one.

2. Identify the Root Cause

Why is this stressor causing stress in the first place?

That sounds circular, but here’s what it means: You might say your job stresses you out. But what about your job? Is it fear of failure? Feeling unseen? A need to prove yourself?

This is the work. Often the root cause goes back to subconscious beliefs—like not feeling worthy, not feeling safe unless you're in control, or believing that everything rests on your shoulders. These beliefs influence how you perceive everyday events, and therefore, how your body responds to them.

3. Build Proactive Habits

These aren’t revolutionary. They’re the basics you hear all the time. But the goal here is to treat them as signals to your body that you are safe and well:

• Eat nourishing, balanced meals (3-4 times/day)

• Train consistently (especially resistance training)

• Walk regularly

• Practice mindset work (journaling, breath work, prayer, therapy, whatever works for you)

If you do these things regularly, your baseline stress levels stay lower—even when life gets chaotic.

4. Use Reactive Tactics

When you do get stressed—and you will—what do you do?

Use a short sequence:

• What am I feeling right now?

• Why am I feeling this way?

• What’s one small action I can take to shift my state?

It could be going for a walk, calling a friend, journaling for 5 minutes, or doing a breathwork drill. The key is to interrupt the spiral of rumination and move toward regulation.

Stop Looking for the Perfect Plan—Start Solving the Right Problem

If you’re plateaued and frustrated, you don’t need a new diet, more cardio, or an aggressive cut. You might need to zoom out and look at your internal operating system. Your thoughts, beliefs, habits, and stress response are just as important—if not more—than your macros.

To get unstuck, you need to work smarter, not harder.

You need to do the internal work with the same discipline you apply to your external habits.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

let's say you're doing all the right things, you're tracking your macros, going to the gym consistently and checking off all the nutrition and training boxes, but you're still not getting the results. Well, your problem might not be what you think it is. Today, my guest, adam Badger, reveals why something invisible might be sabotaging even the most disciplined approach to health and fitness. You'll discover why your body can override even the best nutrition, how emotional patterns silently block progress and real strategies to break through plateaus, when white-knuckling it with willpower is not cutting it. Stop blaming yourself for lack of discipline when the real culprit might be hiding in plain sight. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:05

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to look at why even the most disciplined nutrition and training plans can sometimes fail, despite your best efforts, despite doing all the things, checking all the boxes. And my guest today to talk about this is Adam Badger. He is a fitness coach. He's a buddy of mine, he's had me on his show as well. He's got over a decade of experience helping everyday people transform physically and mentally, and I think the mental side is super important here. Since founding Badger Strength in 2018, adam has guided hundreds of clients maybe thousands to exceptional results by simplifying nutrition and training, while emphasizing the critical role of mindset. His approach to sustainable fitness, which we love here as well, focuses on addressing both the physical and emotional aspects of health. So today you're going to learn why there might be some hidden barriers to your progress that have nothing to do with your knowledge, with your discipline, how emotional patterns can override even the perfect plan, and some tips to get over the hump and start getting results. Adam, my man, welcome to the show.

Adam Badger: 1:58

Well, thank you, man. That was a great introduction, very, very, very flattering and also super professional. I'm jealous.

Philip Pape: 2:05

I just always try to cultivate that radio voice you know.

Adam Badger: 2:09

No, no, it was perfect. It was perfect. I also. I know no one's watching on video, but I don't. Normally. I'm wearing a tank top right now and I'm not normally like douchey like this. It's just really hot in my office. No, I thought you were just trying to show off the gun, so it's good I did just work out, so I was feeling a little more confident than normal.

Philip Pape: 2:23

A little pumped. I hear you, man. I hear you man, you know it takes some courage to do that. So you know, and we love training, we love nutrition, we love talking about this stuff all the time, and you and I were, I guess, not joking because we don't want to take this. We want to take this stuff seriously, but how? And you've talked about clients as well, and people who reach out that say I really am doing everything you talk about, adam, like I'm eating the protein, I am tracking, I am training, I'm like getting enough sleep, something is still off and I've got the knowledge. You know, it's not like I'm the noob that doesn't even know I need to track my food. What's the real reason, then, that people fail to transform despite doing everything right, or thinking they're doing everything right, that people fail to?

Adam Badger: 3:04

transform despite doing everything right or thinking they're doing everything right. So I used to say that it was one of the two I's and I've kind of updated that to be it, to say that it's one of the three I's. So generally, what I found in my experience that it's usually comes down to impatience, improvement or intervention, right? So if you're checking all the boxes and you're doing everything and you feel like you know you're not seeing progress, are you being just impatient? Do you have unrealistic expectations of how quickly you're going to see results? That seems to be a very common one, right? So for some people, let's assume that they're no one's 100%. So let's assume they're 90% consistent. Their stress is not much more than normal, right? Like they have a pretty normal life, little stressors here and there and they're being super consistent. Then it's usually just impatience, like you just need to have a more realistic timeline around how quickly your body can actually change.

Adam Badger: 4:07

Then there's improvement. This is the person who says they're doing everything 90%, but really maybe it's only 60 or 70%, right? That's when you're tracking Monday through Thursday and you feel like, well, that should be enough, and then Friday night through Sunday night is just dumpster fire and you don't really know how many calories you're intaking. Or maybe you are going to the gym four days a week but you haven't progressed weights, you haven't gotten better at technique, you haven't actually gotten any stronger, you're just kind of breaking a sweat. Okay, that person needs improvement. They need to improve their consistency, they need to learn more about how to train properly. But then there's also the step of intervention about how to train properly. But then there's also the step of intervention. So let's assume someone has been relatively patient, they've been consistent for six months. They're just not noticing much change at all. So they're not being super impatient. Let's assume that, across the board, they are checking all their boxes. They're in that 80 to 90% consistent range. They are progressing in the gym, they're just not seeing it. That's when we can take the step of being like okay, we have to intervene here. This is like the intervention step and not intervention, like we have to have a gum to Jesus, talk with you, but just, we gotta, we gotta do some investigation and go okay, what's what's going on here?

Adam Badger: 5:19

Now that can kind of shift into what our main topic was, was probably going to be, which is well, what is likely going on with that person and those are the people where there's likely a lot of chronic stress and they are unaware of how that's affecting their body. So they're they're not fully. They're not fully connecting their mental health or their emotional health and their physical health. And I always stress that I don't mean this in like a hippie woo-woo way, because I'm not like that at all. I'm just talking about how chronic stress affects you physically and mentally and it makes results much harder to achieve and it really extends the timeline. So that means you have to be very, very consistent for much, much longer to see a little bit of progress, or you can actually get in there and address your levels of chronic stress, what's stressing you out, how your body's responding to stress, and it doesn't always mean you got to do like blood work and stuff like that. So anyway that I said a lot.

Philip Pape: 6:27

No, no, you didn't. Actually, that was perfect. Like we could literally bottle up that as a clip because the three eyes. I love frameworks and I think that was one of the best ways I've ever heard this. I'll call it a sequential process of self-reflection of are you doing this? And actually it is contact. It's good context for this episode, because I think what we're talking about here is you feel stuck and you think you're doing the right things. Well, check off. These are other boxes to check that you might not be checking.

Philip Pape: 6:54

And impatience is amazing because I did a podcast about it recently, because I do get a lot of clients who start with me and not usually not one-on-one clients so much. Well, you know them too. Every client who, like you know, we're trying to set up their diet, we're trying to set up their training. They're open, they're committed to it, they're doing the things. And then after three weeks, why am I not losing weight? I'm so frustrated Like what's going on. And there's a lot of opportunity there for reframing, support, accountability around patients, which is a skill. It's a skill because I'm an impatient guy, trust me. I used to speed all the time because I'm impatient.

Adam Badger: 7:30

Me too. I'm extremely Listen. I always like to tell my clients I'm extremely impatient. I'm not a patient person. I want results as fast as possible too. I get it. You're never going to meet someone who's like, no, I prefer to have slower results. Of course, if, if all things considered, you could get results faster without any negative side effects, who's not gonna choose that? Like everyone's gonna choose that, probably again with the, with the caveat that there's not gonna be negative side effects to that. So if you're like, hey, listen, you listen, you could do this a sustainable diet, a sustainable workout program but you'll get results in three months versus six months, which you're going to choose, most people are going to choose three months. Why wouldn't you?

Adam Badger: 8:12

But the patience part is so important because and I think this is where we can get into the mindset and talking about human behavior I get it. I get, when you take the leap and you invest in yourself and you hire a coach, or you invest in yourself by going to a gym or invest the time and energy into a program, you have this impulsive or instinctual desire to see a return on that. And when you're not seeing a return on that, yeah, you're going to start getting inquisitive and going, oh, what's going on? I don't know why I'm. What's the point? So for those people, let's just say it is an impatience thing.

Adam Badger: 8:48

You got to start looking at. Well, why am I actually even doing this in the first place? Like, why do I want to lose 20 pounds? Why do I want to get leaner, why do I want to get stronger? Because if you can get to the root of that which can tie into, like the stress management, that which can tie into, like the stress management, the chronic stress and all that stuff, but if you get to the root of that, you can then start looking at your results beyond just the scale and body comp, like are you sleeping better? Are you feeling better? Are you getting stronger? All that stuff.

Philip Pape: 9:14

And do you think there are some. I'll call them simple hacks, or the way that we frame, we call it periodization, right, but for those who don't know, it's just having phases and having, which sometimes are tied. We tie them to timelines, sometimes incorrectly, I'll say. But, for example, I only do monthly plans for my coaching. Now, just recently switched to that, mainly because I found that some of the impatience comes from the pressure of the clock, the pressure of like I paid for six months and I have four months out of that for fat loss and I'm one month in and I'm not quite where I thought we should be based on that pretty graph you showed me which maybe that's my mistake of like here's the ideal trajectory and and it's like, oh geez, you know they feel like their money and time are locked Right. So are there just again, before we move into the other eyes and then eventually stress like not having a timeframe or not having a target weight. What is your approach to that?

Adam Badger: 10:06

Just as a very simple thing people can do right now we're trying to say lose fat, I would say it's a good question. Uh, cause? I'm trying to think of a simple answer? Because, because, because I would say the the easiest thing you could do upfront is to start tracking progress by the completion of the tasks and not by the scale and body measurements.

Philip Pape: 10:29

That's good, right, that's good.

Adam Badger: 10:30

So I would be like yeah, start and start just going. Hey, I want to hit you know, let's say you're doing four workouts a week. Okay, I want to do at least 15, 16 workouts this month. Check those boxes. I want to do at least five walks a week. Check those boxes. I want to hit my calories and protein at least six out of seven days. Check those boxes and start getting like enjoyment out of that. And if you're not enjoying that, understand that maybe.

Adam Badger: 10:58

Then there's something you need to address in terms of your personal process, the routine you're building. So if I'm looking at if I'm looking at building a routine or building a lifestyle, it's not that, like every little thing we do to lose 20 pounds, you have to do for the rest of your life Because, as you know, losing weight by nature is a temporary process. It's not something you should do. But the habits you build along the way should be relatively sustainable. They just the dial gets turned down a bit once you're in maintenance. So, are you eating foods that you enjoy? Are you noticing you have more energy? Are you getting better sleep? Are you making improvements as a human being? Is your quality of life getting better, like? These are all things that I understand when you're trying to lose weight.

Adam Badger: 11:41

It's very emotional. You want to. I always describe it. It's like climbing, or I think I might've used this analogy with you. It's like climbing a rickety ladder and you're you're almost at the top. You want to just get onto the roof right, cause you just want to feel that stability of going. Oh God, I reached my goal weight, or I reached my goal pant size. Now I feel safe, but at the end of the day, like you're still the same, you're like you still have to figure out how to live in that, in that, in that place. So people are trying to latch on to some like emotional security, and I feel like that's what a lot of coaches don't talk about. They're just talking about patience and we'll track your progress, enjoy the process. But you have to understand that this person. They're trying to latch on to a sense of security because they think when they have that security and they feel comfortable in their body, that it's going to fill some void, and usually it's not.

Philip Pape: 12:32

Yeah, so there's a lot of great stuff, a lot of gold there, man, because I was thinking of a movie I think it's on Hulu called Fall. Have you seen this? No?

Adam Badger: 12:40

I haven't.

Philip Pape: 12:40

Okay, you talk about the rickety ladder. Well, this is a. In this movie, these two girls, women, whatever, uh decide to climb a radio tower. That's like force tall, tallest structure in the world and all the way up there some disasters occur.

Philip Pape: 12:54

Let's just leave it at that. I don't want to spoil the movie, it's really good and but it reminds me of like they're barely getting there there stability. It's kind of like rock climbing for the first time without any guidance, right? You just don't know if the carabiner and the thing that goes in the rock I don't know what it's called is going to hold. Okay, and like you said, what if you want to go back down the ladder? Well, now it's rickety, right. Some rungs are going to fall and the whole thing might fall off.

Philip Pape: 13:16

I like that analogy and also the checking the boxes, because people get hung up on the quantities or when they think of consistency, they think I'm always hitting the target, as opposed to I'm doing the thing, which may or may not hit the target all the time. But like per habit theory, james, clear atomic habits, compounding all that fun stuff. You just got to do it multiple times to put it in place and then you can start to optimize, maybe the quantities and the numbers you hit. I mean, at least that's what comes to mind for me. So that's impatience, man, and then improvement. We could just gloss over that a little.

Philip Pape: 13:47

I think I'm not gonna say it's obvious, but there definitely is a gap from like I'm doing the thing to now I'm improving the thing and then I've improved to a point where I should be getting the result and I'm still not getting the result. That takes us to okay. Something else is going on. So, adam, what could the things be on that list before we get to chronic stress? Or another way to look at it, is the excuses people make. That's not chronic stress. Do you know what I mean? Like hormones? Hormones come to mind.

Adam Badger: 14:19

Yeah, I think so. I think what people forget is that, when it comes to and I want to just like let everyone know, like I'm not a hormone expert or a thyroid expert or by any means I'm not an endocrinologist I've had clients, but I can count on less than one hand the amount of clients I've had where the reason why they weren't seeing results was a legitimate hormonal issue.

Philip Pape: 14:42

Exactly, it's a small percentage, but it's real. We're not gaslighting anybody here, yeah.

Adam Badger: 14:46

I had one client who was specifically and this is an interesting story. I won't go into the whole thing, but basically her not seeing results almost saved her life because she was doing everything, Everything was on track, she was checking all the boxes and we worked together for like eight months and she's like I just am not seeing like any changes. So then that led to getting testing and she found out she had like a, a potentially cancerous growth on her thyroid and then she got it surgically removed and now she's great.

Philip Pape: 15:19

Did you take that personally, Like how did that make you feel through the process? I think people want to know, because we're humans too as coaches and I tend to take these things a little bit personally, like I'm not able to help you what's going on?

Adam Badger: 15:30

Yeah, I always get. I will always turn the finger at myself first before I go, or the clients, like you know, lying, or whatever. I was like, oh man, like and and yeah, I'm a human too. So I was like, do I suck at this? Like, what am I doing wrong? I could have 29 clients all doing good. I have one client that's not. I'm like, oh, maybe I just suck, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am and I would rack my brain and we would do maintenance breaks, we would do form check videos, we would do a little bit more of an aggressive diet.

Adam Badger: 15:56

And there was, there was like very, very slow progress and she wasn't someone who was overweight. She was like you know, you're a, a mom, busy, and she was in a healthy weight range, but she just wanted to be more. She wanted to look like she worked out and she felt like she didn't. And once we discovered that, I was like, okay, this makes sense. And I was honestly just more, you know, happy for her that she was getting answers and she was. And then it was more about just talking to her about how she was emotionally feeling dealing with this. She had a daughter and now she might have cancer, like it was a whole thing, of course.

Adam Badger: 16:29

But then on the flip side of that, I've had other clients who were hitting plateaus, and I remember one client specifically this is someone who is more of like a hybrid client. So they were doing in-person coaching and also doing nutrition coaching and she came in one day and she was like in tears, she nutrition coaching. And she came in one day and she was like in tears. She's like I just don't understand. I am tracking and I just am not losing it. She dropped like 10 pounds and just like plateaued out. I go, just do me one favor tomorrow. I don't care what it is, anything that enters your mouth, just track it, just just. Maybe there's something that we're not seeing. Turns out, she was and I will laugh at this and I don't mean to be mean about it, but it was just. It was just. This is where knowledge comes in. She was drinking apple juice at every day and just was like, oh, it's apple juice, like it wasn't even like tracking it.

Philip Pape: 17:18

Oh, it's a fruit, it's a vegetable. Those don't have any calories.

Adam Badger: 17:21

And I was like how much are you drinking? She's like I don't know like a few glasses. So she was drinking like 600 calories of apple juice a day and wasn't tracking it. And then she stopped that and started losing weight. So I was like, okay, there was improvement.

Philip Pape: 17:32

And I had another client recently who you know, hold on hold the thought on the other client, just just so people know like this is a thing. You may not be doing it on purpose, you may be misinformed or you could be tracking chorizo as like lean pork, you know, and like it could be as simple as that You're 400 calories off or you're copying and pasting an error you made months ago, perpetually Right, so anyway continue, way, continue.

Adam Badger: 17:52

No, it's a, it's a real thing and I've had that happen several times. I had a client recently who's you know kind of uh, same deals, like a little not as emotional about it, but it's like I just feel like I'm in this plateau and I said okay, and I said let's, let do me a favor, like you're, start sending me some form, more form, check videos. You were being consistent with that in the beginning, when you kind of laid off that and then when I just realized, oh yeah, you know like you're, she's working on her home, she's working out at home, she's got dumbbells, I'm like you're, you're lifting your heaviest dumbbells Like they're nothing.

Philip Pape: 18:17

Now so you need heavy.

Adam Badger: 18:19

You need heavier weights, so like she. But now she's like an A plus client, so she goes okay and she's ordering more weights.

Philip Pape: 18:26

So she was like barely maintaining her muscle when she was trying to build.

Adam Badger: 18:30

Right, yeah, so she had like dropped like 15 pounds and then it was like it like steadied out and I'm like, okay, so basically what's happening is now your, your calories are pretty consistent, but your calorie output is just plateaued. Yeah, so instead of us dropping your calories, let's ramp up your, your workouts a bit. And it's like oh yeah, the weights that you're using are just too light for you. Now you gotta, you gotta, bump it up. So there is definitely a cause for improvement.

Adam Badger: 18:56

As far as the next thing we're going to talk about, intervention, there is just a very small amount of people who it's like oh, you have this underlying thyroid issue.

Adam Badger: 19:05

Generally, even if you did have an underlying thyroid issue or hashimoto's, or hormonal or perimenopause, any of that stuff, I always like to really stress to people it doesn't really change the protocols that much.

Adam Badger: 19:20

Like, let's say, you go, I have this thyroid issue or I like save for something where it requires surgery, like my thyroid is slow or I have hashimoto's or I have autoimmune, yeah, all that stuff is being affected because you're in a chronic state of fight or flight and your body's like shutting down and it's not going to prioritize muscle building and fat loss. And I always like to stress people because you know, we know, starvation mode is not a thing. We live in 2025, modern day America and you're paying for. You're paying for one-on-one coaching, which means, like you know, you're probably doing well financially. You have access to high calorie, palatable foods. So there's probably some holes, like when you're stressed out and your calorie output goes down. Not only does that does that affect the you know, obviously your calorie balance, but there's probably times throughout the month, throughout the week, throughout the quarter, where you are giving in and those are just having a bigger impact because you're not able to push it in the gym.

Philip Pape: 20:18

Do you find, before we go too down this rabbit hole, do you find that individuals in that demographic which most people listening to podcasts are probably in that realm who, let's say, they have a stressful job, they have some chronic life stress, like we all do, and then they start doing the things right, they start developing the systems and habits that you work with them on, that we talk about here as well, and a few months in, do you see some marked improvement despite all the stress, and that the stress is just kind of a plateau point? Or do you find that right off the bat it's a problem?

Adam Badger: 20:50

That's a good point. So I hope this answers your question, because this is where my mind went when you asked me that, and this is where my mind went when you asked me that, and this is something that I talk about with clients a lot, and it can really help really change your life. Your perception of stress is what causes the negative side effects, not the stress itself, so the example I use with people is if you're, I'm a pretty, there's certain things in life that I stress about that if I told people, they'd be like you're, you're crazy, and there's other things in life that don't bother me, that seem to really like rile other people up. The example that I always use, though, is like if you're driving in the in the fast lane on the highway and someone cuts you off fast lane on the highway and someone cuts you off let's say, me and Steven are both in that same situation I get cut off and I roll my eyes. Steven gets cut off and he starts cursing at the other driver, and he's got a vein in his neck and he's red in the face. He's clenching the steering wheel. We experienced the same stressor, but his perception of that, which we can go into. Why that's like like the root of that, why that bothered him, which is another step. But his reaction to that stress, his perception of that stress, the fact that he felt maybe emasculated or scared in the moment, is causing all the negative side effects. Now you take that one little tiny incident but multiply that a thousands of times a year. If you're perceiving your chronic stress as this life or death situation, physiologically you're going to handle stress way worse and it's going to have a more impactful effect on your body. So if you can, if all of your stressors in life stay the same but you learn to work on how you're perceiving them, you can have the same stressors and not as many negative side effects.

Adam Badger: 22:45

And I've seen that one client that I use as an example all the time. She started with me about a year ago she worked with me for six months total. Over the course of six months she lost 25 pounds. She went from working out zero times a week to four times a week, slowly, because it started with two. She went from saying she wasn't a gym person and had no time for the gym to being a four times a week gym person. She didn't track food, said she had absolutely no time to eat, was eating three to four meals a day, started getting her steps in, went from 2,000 steps to 8,000 steps over time. But nothing about her life changed in terms of her stressors. She had the same job. In fact, her job got more stressful because she took on more responsibility. She had the same two kids with the same amount of afterschool activities, the same husband, the same social life, same amount of travel. Nothing changed, but her perception of her life changed and her habits changed.

Adam Badger: 23:36

And I'm not trying to go off on too many tangents, but I basically break it down for my clients that do you have your proactive habits and your reactive solutions. Your proactive habits are the things you do regularly, consistently, whether you're stressed or not, and your reactive stuff is when stress does tend to hit you and you start and you do get triggered. These are the kind of things you can implement in the moment to pull yourself out of that and perceive your stress differently. So that's kind of how I break it down for clients is really building these core proactive habits that build like an armor so that you're able to handle stress better, and then reactive tactics so that when you do spike your stress or your stress gets spiked by life. You can then handle it in the moment and not let it spiral.

Philip Pape: 24:20

This hits so hard, man. I'm smiling for those that are not watching the video, because what Adam's saying is it's profound, it really is, and I don't mean that in a light way either, because we talk about stress in a nebulous form. Sometimes we tie it to our hormones, like cortisol. We also talk about all these little hacks to mitigate stress, and breath work and yoga and all that, but the idea that stress is going to happen, what do you do? It's not just about like meditating, right, it's. Do you even perceive the stress in a way that's going to internalize it for you in the first place? The reason I resonate this with Adam is because, again, I could see.

Philip Pape: 24:59

The road rage used to be a thing for me until I had kids and then realized how dangerous it was in a car to allow yourself to react to that initial emotion that comes in. So you start to find that deeper. Why which ties to what you said earlier why are you doing this the fitness thing? Well, why am I acting this way? And why am I even driving a car with my kids while I'm trying to get them from one place to the other? Cause I protect them and I'm keeping them safe.

Philip Pape: 25:26

And so you get to the point at least I did, where you know I wasn't speeding, I kind of brush off. I don't get into fights. If people want to instigate, I just let them go, let them merge and the stress you're just like the burden is just totally off. And you know, adam, like working with clients, if a client messages you, maybe they want to cancel, maybe they're frustrated because they're not getting the result, like that stresses me out because I feel like I'm letting them down. But if I have to do a billion things and have a lot of people depending on me, like I roll with it, man, like to me that's super low pressure. I can handle emotion, people's emotional stress coming at me. So we all have different things, like you're saying, that stress us more than others. So, having said that, I think that's it sounds like the thing we should be focusing on today, because people can take control of that.

Philip Pape: 26:10

Like I feel like today, with stuff you're going to share, they can have a few steps to empower them to change their perceived stress, and I wonder what those are.

Adam Badger: 26:18

So, so the way I walk people through it is, uh, I like to break it down into uh, four steps and uh, step one is identifying your chronic stressors. So this is obviously very individual, but you have to. I mean, you can make a mental note of it, but like it would helpful to write it down and and just kind of take stock of what are the things in your life currently that are consistently causing you stress, right, not like little incidences over time, but like what are the things that are causing the chronic stress in your life? So that's step one is you got to create that list that could probably take you 10 minutes, right, like, like, actually like nail that down. You can even take it a step further and nail it down to like the top five, whatever it is, but you got to really like be aware of it, cause if you're aware of the things that are stressing you out, guess what? Like now you know when they're popping up you can be more prepared for it, right?

Philip Pape: 27:13

Just like with your three big three or four that most people have.

Adam Badger: 27:16

I mean, I would say, obviously it's very individual, but generally speaking, when we're talking about and this is a I mean, this is probably a step prior to that, but it's just understanding that stress kind of basically can be put into three buckets, right, it's like your psychological stress, your physical stress, metabolic stress, right? So psychological stress, that's probably the most common one, right, that covers, like you know, sadness, depression, anxiety, overworked, overload, over consuming information, like all that falls in that bucket. Then there's like physical stress. That's like the type of workouts you're doing or the type of workouts that you're not doing, like, right, if you're sedentary, that's physically stressful, the type of, you know, if you've had injuries, nagging pains, things like that, that's your physical stress. And then your metabolic stress is like the underlying stuff that we were kind of talking about. So if you have thyroid issues, digestive issues, that's also stress on the body. So all of these things are. These are three different stress buckets.

Adam Badger: 28:11

I would say, for most people, what you have to understand is your psychological stress, like saving for, like, let's say, you're you're completely overtraining or you're completely sedentary, or you have like some really bad injury. Obviously that's a physical stress, but for most people, psychological stress is the big one and that's what's trickling into the other areas, right? So I like to have people really mostly focused on psychological stress, because that's usually the thing that they need to tackle, whereas because if you're overtraining, I could tell you to train less. That's a pretty easy fix, but psychological stress is a little deeper, cool man.

Philip Pape: 28:45

So that's identify your stressors. They're psychological, physical, metabolic, and there's a whole potential list there that may be appropriate to you.

Adam Badger: 28:52

And for most people it's a psychological one, and that tends to be things like kids career self-doubt, things like that, and that leads into step two. So step one is identify your chronic stressors. Step two is the big one. That requires the deeper work and this is the work that most people I don't want to say they're unwilling to do, but you really have to commit, you know, you really have to like commit to I'm going to do this deeper work and that's identifying your root cause. Why are these things in your life actually causing stress? Again, perception right. So it's like I like to always be nuanced. You could not get too down the rabbit hole on step two and still probably fix your chronic stress. But going down the rabbit hole on step two and actually committing to doing that work and not putting a timeline on it and doing it over time, are you allowed to curse on this podcast?

Philip Pape: 29:50

Go for it.

Adam Badger: 29:51

It can fucking change your life, not only physically, but we're talking about your relationships, your finances, finances how you're showing up in the world. Step number two is like like I could get emotional talking about how deep I've gotten into step number two and it literally it can change your fucking life, but you have to be willing to do the work. It's identifying root causes like why are these things stressing you out? And it comes down to what underlying subconscious beliefs are you holding on to that are showing up in your life that is affecting everything. So, for example, if work is a chronic stressor for you and you dig a little bit into that, why is work stressful? Oh well, I'm overworked, I'm taking on too much, I feel like I have too much on my plate, okay, well, why is that? Why do you see that behavior showing up in your life? And if you go down that rabbit hole enough it could it could come all the way back down to like well, when I was a kid, my parents got divorced and I didn't see my dad as much and that made me feel unworthy and I felt like if I was successful in life, like this isn't my personal story, but like and that, why now in life I'm constantly trying to overachieve, overdo things. I'm, you know I'm a perfectionist. I'm all or nothing. I've never felt good enough. That's the stuff you need to work on, because, if you're aware of that, I like to compare it to an analogy that I use with my clients.

Adam Badger: 31:16

It's like Haley Jo Osment in the Sixth Sense. He can see dead people. When he first sees dead people, the whole first 75%, 80% of the movie is him freaking the fuck out about seeing dead people and trying to fix it. And then, when he accepts that they're there and he's always going to see them, he now is calm about it and handles it better. That's what your underlying subconscious beliefs are. Once you see them, you're like you're going to be like oh, I don't want to see that. It's going to freak you out. You're like I don't want to, I don't want to think about that, like that's scary. But now you're aware of show up as a different parent, a different spouse, a different employee, employer, like you're going to show up differently in all areas. So to start doing the work on that is you have to start. I would start by looking at you. Know what is the trend in your life? Like some common ones that I see are overachievers. Right, that's like a very common one.

Adam Badger: 32:11

perfectionist perfectionist another one is like that people don't really think of is like I call it life of the party someone who's always, who's never opening up, right, they're always cracking jokes, self-deprecating everything's lighthearted. They never. You can't have a deep conversation with them. That person might be thinking well, no one cares about my feelings, they're bottling up all their negative emotions. They don't ever feel safe to express them. What do you think that leads to? Chronic stress? Right, chronic psychological stress? Yes, the yes man or yes woman right Over committing saying yes to everything never setting boundaries.

Adam Badger: 32:48

These are some very common ones. You can even even another. One is like an underachiever, someone who's so afraid of failure that they never take a chance on themselves, they never actually push themselves, they never actually go for that promotion or ask that person out because they're so afraid of getting shot down. When you start to recognize these patterns in your life, it's going to open up a lot of doors for you that are actually going to be very, very impactful in how you're showing up in the world.

Philip Pape: 33:12

Then steps three and four oh, hold on, hold on, hold on. You don't get to go on here. I can talk about that all day. I just, I, just I want to sit on things because, like, we're not just providing information, I think if you're listening to this, this could unlock everything for you. And I will admit, like Adam is an expert in this stuff. I can just tell he talks about it in his show, talking fit, all the time time and I think he's underselling himself on how important this is. Because when you said identifying root cause, I bet a lot of people went to all, right, I want to identify the root cause of what the stressor is. No, you're saying why does that stressor cause you stress Again, going back to perceived stress, that is an important, profound distinction. It really is. It's super important, adam, important profound distinction.

Tony: 33:59

It really is. It's super important, adam. My name is Tony. I'm a strength lifter in my forties. Thank you to Phil and his wits and weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out.

Adam Badger: 34:43

Well, here's one that I missed.

Adam Badger: 34:44

I'm excited about it because it's so helpful. This is a big one that I missed. It's a common category people fall into too is a victim, and when I say victim, I always want to explain this to people, because people, when they first hear that one, they're like well, that one's not me, like it might be you, because a victim is not someone who just walks around feeling sorry for themselves. That's not what I'm talking about. Right Again. That's like kind of like I hate social media. Like that's the messaging that people go oh, you got to stop being a victim or stop feeling sorry for yourself, right, no excuses.

Philip Pape: 35:12

Yeah, it's like this oversimplification.

Adam Badger: 35:14

Victim mindset is not about feeling sorry for yourself. A victim mindset means you don't trust your own ability to save yourself, so you're always looking for someone else or something else to come fix your problem. And it actually took me to do some deeper work to realize that that was one that I had, and wasn't willing to admit that I had, because I always used to think well, because I'm someone who honestly is, I'm resilient, I am very, I have a good work ethic, like I'm a hard worker. So I was always like I'm an overachiever. I'm an overachiever, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig.

Adam Badger: 35:52

For a couple of years not like three days to realize like, oh, I keep falling into this victim mindset. Well, where does that come from? Oh well, I had a relatively traumatic childhood and as a kid I couldn't depend on the people I was supposed to depend on. So I always used to have these thoughts when I was a kid that something or someone was going to come in and like save the day. And I used to have this thought like, oh, if we just won the lottery or if this one thing just happened. And when I started to do is, I started to try to.

Adam Badger: 36:24

Once I realized that nothing was happening. I then put that pressure on myself. I've got to be the one to save my family and that was the hard wiring. Again, subconscious is not something that you're thinking of every day. It's under the surface. It's not something you're necessarily even aware of. That hardwiring and that pressure was running my life, for I'm 34 right now, so I don't know. 33 and a half years of just this pressure and it was draining my nutrients. I was chronically stressed, highly anxious. I didn't even realize I had anxiety until I was in my 30s because I just thought that's just how I am so realizing that can be very powerful because once you realize it, you have control over it. When you have control over it, you can control it right, you can manage it.

Philip Pape: 37:12

Yeah, yeah, and it sounds like it would express itself in many ways that people label things from imposter syndrome to, like you said, being a victim to self-doubt and all of these maybe to a lack of confidence, because I could see how that would cause that as well. So does some of that continue to linger for you? I'm just curious, and also I don't know if we want to take a quick tangent into a life-changing experience you had recently and how that has evolved your personal perspective on any of this, including yourself.

Adam Badger: 37:39

Yeah. So the one thing I always coach my clients on is if you expect that these things are going to go away, then you're always going to be discouraged. So they never go away. You get better at managing it. It's like your relationship with food. If you're someone who used to, you know be afraid of carbs, you're kind of always going to be afraid of carbs to a certain degree, but you get better and better at managing it. But if you expect, if you're waiting for the day where you're just gonna wake up and you're all these things are going to go away, then you're always gonna be discouraged, because every time you feel down or you feel insecure, you feel lack of confidence, you're like, oh man, this isn't working.

Adam Badger: 38:13

Back to the impatience and the improvement Right? So for me to answer your question yes, it shows up every single day, every single day. There are multiple times a day where there's something that just triggers those thoughts and I have to actively and intentionally reroute. So make to make sure that I'm not, I'm not showing up as that version of myself for my wife and my kids, and that sounds way oversimplified and it's not as easy as I made it sound. But that's the work they have to do, and you're not going to be batting 1000 on it either. There's going to be days where you feel like you're trying so hard to reroute your brain and reroute the way you're thinking and you're just going to be caught up in that thought pattern and you just get better and better at managing it.

Philip Pape: 39:00

And just to not let it go, something happened to you recently right, yeah, yeah.

Adam Badger: 39:04

So I got in a really bad car accident. It's March, it's mid-March right now we're recording this. So it was February 1st. I went to the gym on a Saturday morning this you know, I was just. I went to the gym on a saturday morning. Uh, was driving home. I came to like a blinking red. I slowed up to a stop it was it's six o'clock on 6 30 in the morning on a saturday no one's on the road. So I slowed up to a stop at the blinking red and then pursued forward like you do.

Adam Badger: 39:31

That's, that's how a blinky red words it it's stop sign, the, the, the uh intersecting uh lane is like a 55 mile an hour uh, highway, uh, and the person who's coming down didn't slow up for their blinking yellow um, I know this because the distance between the two lights. If they had split up even a little bit, it would have been a fender bender, um, and I can't really remember, but I'm like 98% sure they didn't have their headlights on because the, the road is so like you could literally see like a mile down the road, like I would have seen headlights coming. So it wrecked me, man, like like the, like I still like have like my neck. I, my neck is like super tight, my shoulder, my collarbones messed up. But anyway, long story short, I a half a second later it would have been way, way worse. Uh, and I have two kids, like I had to like take my. Luckily they weren't in the car, but I remember taking my daughter's car seat out of my car and being like wow, she could have been in the car with me. Like scary, scary. Now the sexy Instagram story would be oh, this was like a life changing moment.

Adam Badger: 40:39

And then I immediately switched my mindset and like now, like I have this new zest for life. Life's not that simple, right? So like it started with immediate like anger and slight depression, I would say Cause I was like that happened. But then nothing about your life changes really.

Adam Badger: 41:02

And I was back to work on Monday with all this pain and slight concussion, but I had that underlying self-belief of like well, I can't take time off of work because if I take time off work, I'm not providing for my family. So I just kind of went back into those old thought patterns and then I kind of came out of them and kind of found like that's when I started like you know really going like what am I doing? Like what are the things in life that I'm doing that I don't enjoy that I'm spending so much time doing? And then I started to go off on that and like start to focus more on things I enjoy. And then that then I'm a human too, so then got impatient with that, so that that wasn't really like converting in quotes right to like new clients and opportunities. We got frustrated again, got mad again, got it.

Adam Badger: 41:46

So it's like impatience, impatience exactly so then, but now I've come I kind of come to a place where, like, I feel like I'm much more clear and I'm starting to really take back a lot of ownership over my career and my life that I was giving up to things and people that I thought could quote unquote, like save me, which which sounds extreme, because I've been in the same career for 11 years, I've made a really good living, I provide for my family. Realistically, on paper, my life is better than I thought it was going to turn out, but there was something inside of me that kept saying it wasn't good enough. It's because of these expectations and pressure that I was putting on myself and then I kept giving up authority to like, oh, this business coach, this person, this resource could help me get to the next level.

Philip Pape: 42:35

Like program hopping for business.

Adam Badger: 42:42

Yeah, program hopping for business. And then it was like I'm chasing something that I don't even necessarily enjoy doing and the truth is I love what I do. I was just packaging it in a way that wasn't aligned with me because I thought that's what I had to do, again, giving up ownership. And now I'm at a place where I'm like I could continue to do something that wasn't working and that I wasn't enjoyable, and it could end up with me getting hit by a car. So why not try doing stuff that I do enjoy in a way that I enjoy doing it and feel aligned with? Because I could still get hit by a car, but now I have a pickup truck so I'm less likely to get railed like that.

Philip Pape: 43:17

Hey, that's part of the solution. So I wanted people to understand this right, because, again, being human and dealing with things that are stressors, those are stressors too, and you just talked about some tools and active, proactive behaviors for that. I know we're running short on time and there's more steps beyond the identifying root cause, like how to deal with it. Well, actually, you just mentioned them.

Adam Badger: 43:36

So steps three and four are proactive habits and reactive tactics. Oh, cool, and you mentioned those. Yeah, Okay, yeah, yeah. So so just to give quick context for people, cause it's um, proactive habits are literally the stuff that Philip and me talk about all the time it's are you eating nutrient? Are you eating nourishing, balanced meals and getting adequate fuel every day? Notice, I didn't say on a diet, I didn't say cutting carbs or being in a deficit, Like step like you got to make sure you're eating enough.

Adam Badger: 44:06

Because when your body is under fueled guess what, that is Stress. And when your body is under fueled, that's when, like, appetite signaling shuts down and it's cool if I'm a little bit late for my next call because I really feel like this and when your body is under fueled, that's when, like, appetite signaling shuts down. And and if it's cool if I'm a little bit late for my next call because I really feel like this could be useful you have to understand that, like when your body is in fight or flight, it does not know the difference between road rage, work, stress and someone trying to kill you. If someone was trying to kill you, your appetite signaling would shut down All of your. You would get that tunnel vision. Your limbs would kind of go and kind of get like the blood would flow from your limbs to your gut and like you would get heightened senses. That's why when people fast they're like I feel so alert yeah, Cause you're fucking in fight or flight Like. So your, your body is like we're starved. We got to find food. We can zone in on something. So if you're nourished and you stop three to four times a day to sit down and eat a balanced meal, what do you think that signals to your body? It signals to your body that you're safe, because if someone was trying to kill you you wouldn't be able to stop and eat a balanced meal. So, eating balanced meals, getting regular exercise two to four times a week I recommend the best way to do that is resistance training, as I'm sure you've talked about a million times. But the best form of exercise you can do I would say secondary to that would be walking.

Adam Badger: 45:23

And then next is like some sort of mindset practice that you feel aligned with. It doesn't have to be anything specific. It could be like if you enjoy meditation, if you enjoy breath work I'm not religious, but if you are religious, prayer, going to church, like that's a form of mindset work, doing something regularly that is giving you. Whether it's three minutes or 60 minutes doesn't matter, where you're just focusing on your mental health. And if you don't I heard this quote from Tony Robbins if you don't have like 10 minutes a day to prioritize your life, then you don't have a life. So if you can't find three minutes in your schedule to do some breath work or meditate or whatever, then you don't really have a life because you're just a slave to your schedule.

Adam Badger: 46:08

But those are kind of like the proactive stuff. And then reactive is pretty much just like a three question sequence, is like no-transcript email or having a conversation that you've been avoiding right. But it gets you into a mindful place where you can move to the next logical step, as opposed to ruminating in the stress which prolongs the stress. And that's where people go into poor stress coping mechanisms, where they drink alcohol, they overindulge, which then just prolongs the stress, right. So if you can identify the stress, acknowledge why it's causing you stress in the first place and then reroute and do something productive to pull you away from it not avoid it, but pull towards a solution then it makes it.

Philip Pape: 47:14

That's your reactive tactic. So good man, so many mic drop moments in there seriously.

Philip Pape: 47:17

And I want to chat with you later on because I know you're going to have to go to a call soon about all of this. I want people listening anyone listening who follows my show here, who trusts me in any way reach out to Adam. I'm going to include his contact information and I know we also have what can we send them to. That's like the best, next best, thing to learn about, to go down this beautiful rabbit hole of learning about this.

Adam Badger: 47:40

So if you want a little bit more details on like, you know, if you're just hearing me for the first time, you might not care, but episode 183 of my podcast is about, like my mindset shift after the car accident that I had, about like my mindset shift after the car accident that I had um, but I also I also will say um, I know that I know that this isn't probably the most efficient uh way to like, like, encourage people to get in contact with me, but there's no, there's no like strings attached here, because, as we're having this conversation, I realized like, oh, this, this is a good idea to send people.

Adam Badger: 48:12

This is I did a workshop basically breaking down those four steps and getting deeper into each of them. It's a little bit of a watch. It's probably like it's over an hour, but if you want that, I'll send it to you for free, so you can contact me through my Instagram page or you can email me. It's a badger at badger strengthcom, but no strings attached. I'll just send you the recording of that because it literally just walks you through me talking about the underlying health issues that I had that were related to stress, and then talking about the four steps, the stress buckets. It really is just like a lecture on everything we talked about, but actually just kind of laid out and a little bit more consumable.

Philip Pape: 49:00

Yeah, dude, I want to send people your way because, again, Adam's a great guy, he knows what he's talking about. This is probably the clearest framing of this that I've I've ever heard personally, and I've watched and listened to a lot of content. Man and you and I know each other and I still haven't heard it expressed so eloquently and articulately and helpfully. So, everyone, I'm going to include the exact link to get you that workshop, because I think that'll be the most powerful thing, but then we'll include some secondary links to direct access as well. Adam man, thank you for taking your time coming on the show. This was a blast. I'm really glad we had you on to talk about chronic stress, because ultimately it's going to help people unlock what might be holding them back.

Adam Badger: 49:34

Thank you, man. I really appreciate the opportunity and once we started talking like getting into the flow of it, it was really cool. So I appreciate the opportunity a lot.

Philip Pape: 49:43

Yeah, man, so we're going to be in touch and hope you have an awesome weekend.

Adam Badger: 49:47

Thank you, man, you too.

The Hidden Triggers Making You Overeat Without Realizing It (Sarah Krieger) | Ep 303

Get the other part of this conversation on Sarah's podcast "Don't Call Me Skinny" to hear Philip discussing the data/systems side of emotional eating

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Ever find yourself demolishing a pint of ice cream after a stressful day even though you weren't physically hungry?

Your problem isn't lack of willpower – it's invisible emotional triggers hijacking your eating decisions without your conscious awareness.

Today, Sarah Krieger of the "Don't Call Me Skinny" podcast reveals the psychological side of emotional eating while sharing practical tips to build a healthier relationship with food.

This is one part of a special two-part collaboration. Don't miss the companion episode on Sarah's podcast where Philip covers the data-driven systems approach to conquering emotional eating!

Main Takeaways:

• Emotional eating isn't about willpower but about hidden psychological triggers

• Childhood experiences often shape our emotional relationship with food

• The language we use about food reveals our deeper relationship with eating

• Creating awareness through pausing before eating can interrupt autopilot behaviors

• Sitting with uncomfortable emotions rather than eating to suppress them is key

Timestamps:

0:02 - Understanding emotional eating and triggers
7:24 - The first step to take
10:19 - Language and reframing around food
14:14 - "Clean" vs. flexible eating
17:26 - The "pause" method
22:11 - The power of tracking
24:49 - Addressing deeper emotional issues
32:08 - Data/systems-based approach

Get the other part of this conversation on Sarah's podcast "Don't Call Me Skinny" to hear Philip discussing the data/systems side of emotional eating

Why You Keep Reaching for Food and Don’t Know Why

Emotional eating isn’t about food. It’s about patterns. Triggers. Coping. And if you’ve ever found yourself elbow-deep in a bag of chips or polishing off the pint of ice cream on a stressful Tuesday night, you know exactly what I’m talking about.

We think it’s willpower. But what’s really happening is a complex web of emotional associations that started long before your last diet.

What Emotional Eating Actually Is

Emotional eating happens when you eat for a reason other than physical hunger. It’s reaching for food to feel better, to fill a gap, to distract from the hard stuff. But unlike physical hunger, emotional hunger comes on fast and usually targets specific foods—the ones tied to reward, comfort, or nostalgia.

And you’re not broken for doing it. The brain is wired to seek relief from discomfort, and food is one of the most accessible and socially acceptable ways to get that hit of dopamine.

The Hidden Triggers Behind Emotional Eating

Childhood Conditioning

Many of us were raised in environments where food was the solution to everything. You’re sad? Here’s a cookie. You did well in school? Ice cream time. Over time, your brain connected emotions with specific foods and responses.

Lack of Emotional Regulation

If you weren’t taught how to sit with uncomfortable feelings or navigate stress, food became the default coping mechanism. And it works—for about 5 minutes—until guilt and shame kick in.

Environmental Cues

Sometimes the trigger isn’t even internal. It’s walking past the pantry, seeing the chips, and unconsciously grabbing a handful. Your environment is a powerful cue, and we’re often unaware of how it shapes behavior.

Signs You’re Emotionally Eating

• You’re not physically hungry but feel compelled to eat

• You crave specific "comfort" foods

• You feel out of control when eating

• You experience guilt or shame afterward

Why Awareness is Step One

If you don’t know what you’re doing, you can’t change it. Emotional eating thrives in autopilot mode. Just like driving to work and not remembering the last five turns, food behaviors can feel automatic.

Start with awareness without judgment:

• Track when and why you eat

• Journal how you feel before and after meals

• Pause before eating and ask: Am I physically hungry?

Even just saying out loud "I’m doing the thing again" can break the spell and help you reclaim agency.

Dismantling the Moral Language Around Food

One of the biggest red flags of a poor relationship with food is language: "I can’t eat that, it’s bad." "I need to burn off that pizza." This kind of food morality creates guilt, which fuels more emotional eating. You start to see food as a threat rather than fuel.

The Oreo is just an Oreo. It’s not your therapist. It’s not your enemy. It’s just food.

Tools to Interrupt the Cycle

Use the Pause Method

When you feel the urge to snack, pause. Take a breath. Ask yourself what’s actually going on. This isn’t about restriction; it’s about awareness. Are you anxious? Bored? Lonely? Naming the emotion reduces its power.

Try the Apple Test

Would you eat an apple right now? If yes, you’re probably physically hungry. If not, it may be an emotional craving. You can still eat, but now you’re doing it with eyes open.

Pair Foods Strategically

Instead of banning snacks, try pairing. Apple + Oreo. Protein + treat. You get satisfaction and satiety without spiraling into a binge.

If It Goes Deeper, That’s Okay

Some of us carry decades of food trauma. Maybe food was used to control you. Or maybe it was the only stable thing in a chaotic household. That doesn’t get fixed overnight, and you don’t have to figure it all out alone.

Working with a coach or therapist can help unpack the deeper patterns and create strategies for lasting change. But just acknowledging the connection between emotions and eating is a massive step forward.

Final Thoughts

You’re not lazy. You’re not weak. You’re just stuck in a loop your brain thinks is helping. But with awareness, better language, and the right tools, you can build a healthier relationship with food—one where eating is a choice, not a compulsion.

Start small. Reflect. Pause. Pay attention to the language you use. Then take the next step.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

If you've ever found yourself demolishing a pint of ice cream after a stressful day, even though you weren't physically hungry, your problem isn't lack of willpower. It's invisible emotional triggers hijacking your eating decisions without your conscious awareness. Today, we're exposing these hidden psychological forces and why they're sabotaging your nutrition goals, despite your best intentions. You'll discover the neurological reasons your brain connects food with emotional relief, how to decode your unique trigger patterns and some strategies to rewire these responses for good. If you're tired of that frustrating cycle of emotional eating followed by guilt and shame, today's conversation will give you the psychological toolkit you need to finally break free. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:04

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm excited to bring you a special collaboration with Sarah Krieger, owner of Consistency Over Perfection Fitness and host of the Don't Call Me Skinny podcast. We're giving you twice the fun today, because we are dropping two conversations on our two shows, each tackling emotional eating from different angles. Today, sarah is diving into the, I'll say, very, very powerful, very critical psychological side of emotional eating. And then make sure and follow her podcast Again Don't Call Me Skinny, look it up. I'll include the link in the show notes and you're going to hear me discuss the data-driven system side of conquering emotional eating, and I'll again include the link in the show notes, as both episodes should have dropped today.

Philip Pape: 1:49

All right, so a little bit about Sarah. After losing 80 pounds, keeping it off for four years without fad diets, she now helps women through her, empowered by the Basics method, a really solid method, totally aligned with us in this show, so you definitely want to check that out and she focuses on a lot of mindset work and breaking free from diet culture. As a former educator turned coach, she's developed some powerful strategies, some tips to address the emotional side of eating, and today we're going to look at some of those hidden triggers that drive emotional eating and then give you some tips to build a healthier relationship with food. Sarah, thanks for doing this with me and welcome to the show.

Sarah Krieger: 2:28

Thank you, I'm so excited to be here. It's been a minute and I'm excited to tackle this one.

Philip Pape: 2:32

Let's do it. Let's do it. So, emotional eating it's a big hot topic and I don't know. I think one of the best places to start for folks is just in like the practical problems that you see day to day when people come to you and they're like I'm hungry, I crave things, I overeat, I love the Ben and Jerry's ice cream, um, and we can get into topics like um, emotional hunger, you know physical versus emotional hunger signals and all that. But just let's take a take it from the beginning. You know what? What is, what is the issue?

Sarah Krieger: 3:03

Yeah. So I think there's it's a cult, like a culmination. I think that, um, you know my story really is what drove me to be a coach and help women. And even in the very beginning I was very like here's your macros, here are your, you know, here's your training program. Like why are you not turning in a check-in? Like what's wrong with you? I say that in quotation marks Like I thought you wanted to lose weight and it wasn't really until I started coaching other people where I realized like this is a much bigger issue or problem.

Sarah Krieger: 3:34

The emotional side of this, tackling the feelings, tackling okay, well, why am I having all of these things? Why can I not stop at one Oreo? Why do I have to eat the whole bag? Why do I wake up at 2am with sour cream and you know, sour cream and potato chips all over my chest and I blacked out and I don't know what happened, like how does this? Like how did I get here?

Sarah Krieger: 3:55

And so I feel like this emotional, this emotional side I like to refer as like fixing the food relationship and just having a better relationship I think all comes down to an awareness piece. I think a lot of people just aren't aware, they're not educated around food, educated around emotions, how to emotionally regulate themselves, and I think that that's kind of like the deep part of this where it's this it can get ugly and it can get really um, I don't want to say it can get very like self-judgy, like what's wrong with me? Why can't I get fixed? I there's, why can so and so do this, but I can't seem. Why can she have cake and not eat the whole cake? But I can't do that right. So then it turns very internal and I think that this is a big piece that we are completely missing the mark on.

Philip Pape: 4:50

Yeah, there's, and there's a lot of comparison. Like you said, there's a lot of frustration. I mean people, root cause, which would you agree that you know everybody's different, Like some people can process through some mild emotional eating, potentially with just some strategies, Others it's like let's go crack open your childhood trauma here. Like what do you agree? There's this maybe spectrum going on?

Sarah Krieger: 5:21

Oh, absolutely, I think that you know, especially it depends. I truly do feel like this stems that you know, especially it depends. I truly do feel like the stems from you know your childhood. I feel like not everybody has always had a weight issue. A weight issue was always my story. Like I knew in kindergarten I was the big girl, I was bigger than all the other girls. Like that was my story. That's what I knew.

Sarah Krieger: 5:40

Some women come into this.

Sarah Krieger: 5:42

Maybe you know postpartum that I see that are like this hasn't been an issue until you know my adult life.

Sarah Krieger: 5:50

I had never had this issue growing up and I really truly feel like a lot of the women that come to me on the bigger, I would say the more difficult end of that spectrum, where it's that this is very deep rooted hiding in closets eating Doritos you know the parents buying, you know food, but they weren't allowed quote unquote, allowed to eat that food, those kinds of things.

Sarah Krieger: 6:13

Or just growing up in a home where food was always that right. Like an Oreo is always going to be an Oreo, it's never not going to be an Oreo, it's never going to trick you or anything. So it's like, almost like it's creating that safe place with the food. It's like okay, no matter what I do with this Oreo, it's going to be an Oreo and it's going to be delicious and it's going to make me feel better in this moment, and so that's what I'm going to turn to. So I definitely think there's a spectrum of women that I see where it's just like hey, we have to get really deep on, like what's going on? Versus like okay, this has been an issue for this long. Like here's some methods. Let's try these first and then go from there and see what happens.

Philip Pape: 6:49

Yeah, you know, I've I've seen that, I've seen that spectrum and it really depends on where the coach is coming from. That's why I like how we're we're covering this from different angles today so people understand that you know everyone's different. Um, you mentioned awareness. I really love that because we want to define that. I think today, to me, awareness could be to someone listening, I'm tracking my food, or it could be I'm identifying my triggers, or it could be I'm journaling my hunger. What do you define as awareness? Is it all those things, or where does it start?

Sarah Krieger: 7:24

all those things and every again. I think one thing about, like coaching and people, is realizing. Like everybody's in a different place, I've had people come to me where they've already tracked all their macros before they know exactly how to use a scale, and I have other people who are like that is so I've tracked coins, but I've never tracked macros. I don't know what I'm doing here, so I think that it's all. It's all. This whole thing is very individualized, so sometimes awareness is my clients just taking photos in a food log. Hey, let's start here. Where are you at? Oh, hey, let's just start with.

Sarah Krieger: 7:52

I call it the basic plate method. So everything I do is about the basics. So just learning how to build a basic plate. It is not. This does not have to be your you know five star gourmet French meal. This doesn't have to be this. It can be literally just like let's understand and define what is the protein and make sure we're getting protein at every single meal, right? So I think that awareness can be. It can be that kind of tracking. It can also be like why am I wanting food right now? Like what is it about food right now? Like I'm feeling stressed right now. Am I actually hungry for food or am I just wanting this? Because this makes me feel good in this moment and I think I need it right? That's also awareness. So I think it just like meeting the individual and the client where they are, because no one, no like, no two people, no five people, no 10 people that I've ever worked with ever start in the same place, ever.

Philip Pape: 8:44

Yeah, and so as far as where you are, then I mean I like your method and your framework. I love frameworks. You know, you have the basics and all that. If we were to talk about a framework for the emotional eating cycle or the chain of events, right, there's a trigger potentially somewhere, there's cravings in there, there's indulgences, there's guilt and shame, there's you even alert alluded to feeling safe, like that Oreo. That consistent Oreo helps you feel safe, which is a could be a very powerful concept when you explore it. So what kind of framework do you like if that makes sense, or how can people really understand it, who are listening to figure out where they are in the cycle or how you would take them through that?

Sarah Krieger: 9:22

Yeah, I think that you know, I I listened to a lot of language. I listened to the language that people use. So, um, if somebody were to come to me, or if you use language such as like, oh, I can't eat this, it's bad, or language like that, I can't eat that, I'm on a diet, right To me this is kind of like language of somebody who has a poor relationship with food. They probably use food to cope or emotionally, um like make, make them feel better, so cope, um those kinds of things right. So, if you're using specific language, that's where I'm going to be like, okay, we need to start by educating. Like food is not moral, it's not good or bad, we give it the moral value based off of what society has told us, based off of what we think oh, I ate all these Oreos. And then the scale went up. But we're not addressing the actual problem, which isn't the Oreos. Actually, the Oreos were there to help. I use Oreos because I love Oreos.

Sarah Krieger: 10:19

Hey, I don't disagree, dipped in some milk. I know People yeah, people dog on them so much, but I absolutely love them. But it could like insert your vice. It could be pizza, french fries, it doesn't matter. And so it's like understanding like the Oreos aren't actually the problem. It's why we are going to the Oreos, why we can't stop with the Oreos. So for somebody that's using language such as, again, this is bad food or I don't eat that. It's bad, you know it's.

Sarah Krieger: 10:49

I even just recently, I'm like, going through these conversations that I've had with people like you know, even language such as, like you know, trying to work off the food that they've eaten in the gym oh, I need to burn all these calories, right, that to me is language. And I'm like, okay, you're in this category, right. But if we understand that, it's like, okay, I, I know that I can have hashtag balance, and I use that word very faringly or very kind of yes, kind of sarcastic Cause it's like hashtag balance. It's like, well, there's not. I don't know what that really is for people. But so if you're coming to me with that kind of language where it's like, well, I know, I can have an Oreo, but my problem is X, y Z. Like I know that I can eat cake with my kid on at a birthday party, but that cake then leads me into well, then I have cake, and then I have this, and then I have that.

Sarah Krieger: 11:38

Ok, well, you might be in a little bit of a different category or a different place, right? Or it's just like I know what I'm supposed to do, I just don't do it. Right. Again, language is like language is everything. Ok, but there's a reason, ok. So if you know what you're supposed to be doing and you know that you need to be eating fruits and vegetables, but it just doesn't seem to happen, is that actually an emotional issue or is that like a capacity space? Like it's just I'm so busy I don't know how to plan appropriately. Like, is it more of an emotional issue or is it more of like a technical, almost issue versus that? So it becomes a little bit. It just kind of depends and I language for me is like huge listening to what the client is telling me. That's kind of how I decide, like, hmm, I think that we need to start here first.

Philip Pape: 12:23

Yeah, I love that. I don't know if that's a framework, but no, no, it is. It's actually crystal clear. I mean, I got at least two major takeaways here that I think the listener can can just on their own, like a self audit is is thinking about how they speak. Um, you mentioned, you know, the moral judgment on food, or even morally labeling yourself in the context of food as really powerful statements. I would even kind of infer from what you said really anything that's that's negative.

Philip Pape: 12:51

Um, to generalize, it could possibly be a reframing opportunity, even if it's the truth. Do you know what I mean? Like, even if you're stating a fact, but in a negative lens. I'm a very positive optimism bias type person and what you're suggesting is that, like if you're a coach working with someone, you don't just jump into here's your macros, go follow it. It's like, talk to me, talk to me, what's happening, what are you trying to accomplish here? You know, hopefully you have a good intake process and then you can say, okay, I'm hearing some things you're saying and when you check in with me, um, let's, let's try reframing it this way. I love that.

Philip Pape: 13:24

Um, where was I going to go with the second thing you mentioned. It's totally escaping me right now, but you know how that goes. We'll come back to it. I do It'll. It'll hit you at a different moment. It will, it's right. Oh, I know what it was. So what are your thoughts on? Um? So I've I've got a lot of experts that come on my show. I know you talk to people on yours and occasionally I'll get the person who's like. I'm aligned 90, 95% with them. But there's this piece about clean eating, or like judgment of like the ultimate place to get to is no processed foods. The ultimate place to get to is like you're clean. And there's this little bit of judgment even for people who obviously have gotten their goals they're fit, they're lifting, they feel great, like everything's in check and, yes, they have those Oreos, like they've gotten to a healthy mental state and they're eating Oreos. What are your thoughts on that in the industry?

Sarah Krieger: 14:14

Well, my personal thoughts are I don't believe in clean eating unless you're putting your food in a dishwasher or scrubbing it like I think that's what we reference as clean eating. Now I do believe in uh, how I, how I frame it is like, yes, there are more nutritious foods than others, like that we can't state that, like an apple is quote unquote worse than an Oreo. We know that's not true. Right, you're getting nutrients and all sorts of things and the the amount of just fullness that you're going to feel from an apple versus an Oreo, like there's distinguishable differences, but sometimes the Oreo satisfies a need or a desire that you want to have and it doesn't make it bad. So, for me personally, I'm kind of under the guise of like the majority of times, whatever that means for you personally. Yes, you should be eating whole foods that are nutrient dense, that make you feel good, that don't drag you down, that don't make you groggy and tired and bloat and blah, blah, blah, that don't drag you down, that don't make you groggy and tired and bloat and blah, blah, blah, and either super constipated or pooping. All of it Like, yes, like that to me is optimal. But also part of optimal is living right, which also means that maybe you do have. You know, like, tonight I'm going to be super honest. Right Tonight we're going out for my brother-in-law's birthday, okay, so am I going to have an alcoholic drink? Probably right. Do I drink alcoholic drinks every day of my life? No, I'm not a person to tell somebody not to do something you're not allowed to have. Don't eat this.

Sarah Krieger: 15:51

The goal is to get there on their own, like, if they choose, then you know, I've had clients that drink, honestly, you know, 10 to 14 drinks in a week, maybe sometimes even more, and I'm like, whoa, right, like, let's, let's talk about how this impacts our. Let's talk about how this impacts our um, um, our results that we're trying to get Right, um, it's no different than a client that comes to me, though, and has 700 calories of, you know, peanut butter, m&ms, or you know, chocolate, milk and all this stuff and like, but their lunch was 200 calories, but their snack side was 500, right, like, how can we like? This isn't necessarily, you're not bad for doing this, but how can we do it a little bit more so that it gets to where you want to go? Right, let's increase those meal sizes and let's decrease what we have, because you're not going to want those snacks. I'm a big believer in that part the bigger the meal, the less the snacks.

Sarah Krieger: 16:46

So for me it's like just trying to get a client to get there on their own. So I'm not necessarily like a you're not allowed kind of coach. Right, you can have M&Ms, you can have Oreos, you can have an alcoholic drink. But like you also need to take responsibility and own how that is going to impact and then understand like, well, the scale didn't go down this week. You know, on average I maintained or my sleep was kind of trashy, or now I drink too much in my digestion. You know I've sat on the toilet all day. Like, okay, well, that's what happens when we do those things. And now we understand how that impacts something and how can we change it a little bit differently for the next time.

Philip Pape: 17:26

Yeah, and that is back to your first comment about awareness. That's closing the loop. Right, that is closing the loop. People are walking through their day in a state of chaos and uncertainty, a lack of clarity, shoveling food in their mouth, not realizing why they're doing it and also how it interacts with how they feel and everything else. Right, or you know, like definitely the zealots in the certain diet spaces will say well, I feel great on XYZ. Well, have you tried the other alternative, the more flexible alternative, and linked it to your performance, your feedback, your digestion, et cetera? Flexible alternative and linked it to your performance, your feedback, your digestion, et cetera. Um, yeah, I just.

Philip Pape: 18:02

I asked that question because I think sometimes people put on a pedestal elite athletes or physique competitors or whoever might have these somewhat extreme approaches and even though it's kind of quote unquote working and they started through that process that we're trying to take them through, they end up at their own form of an extreme. That isn't necessarily where we want to be. So back to emotional eating. Then you mentioned triggers. You mentioned safety and things like that. Is there something you'd like the listener to know, to be aware of the triggers or or documenting those Cause. That is the awareness when it comes to this, this piece.

Sarah Krieger: 18:35

Yeah, I mean, I think this is a process. This is, I think, the first thing that somebody has to understand that this is not changing tomorrow. You didn't get here in a day and those behaviors that you do have I mean, we live on autopilot what 95% of our day. So once we start forming these habits and these things are just part of who we are, it's going to take an actual like stopping point, a wall. You're going to have to go. Okay, I've hit this wall. I have to. Okay, stop, pause. I have to stop for a second, right, and that takes a minute to get to.

Sarah Krieger: 19:08

Sometimes it's easier, you know, depending on the client, it can be easier for some than others. But what I like to do is first start just, you know, saying out loud, or just having the client they could write it down, right. What we want to do is start bringing awareness without judgment. I think that that's the bigger key to this. It's not about like, well, I thought about having this thing, but then I went and had it anyway. Okay, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing, because we were at least at least able to be aware before we did the thing right. So then it's a different move from that element. Right, but the very first thing I have people do is just take a breath, take a pause for a second, the moment this thought comes into your brain, or even maybe you don't even realize the thought. But now you're reaching into the refrigerator, or now you're reaching into your pantry and you're going oh, wait a minute. Or you're opening it up and you're like, oh, wait a minute. Right. It's like making just a pause and going okay, I'm doing this thing right now. And just like saying it okay, I'm doing this thing, okay, I'm getting, I'm going to eat this thing. Right. It's not about like being aware.

Sarah Krieger: 20:18

Like I said, the majority of us are not aware. We, we drive places. We don't even did I just stop at that stop sign, like I don't even know how I got, like we're just and that's scary because we're driving and I've had those moments Like I'm like how did I get here? I have no idea where. Or you're on autopilot and you always go one way or one direction and then you need to go a different way, but you turn the way that you always go.

Sarah Krieger: 20:43

It's a very similar concept, so For me it's like having them pause. They could document in a journal they could document in the food log. I actually had somebody do group coaching and every time she ate she put down why she was eating, like okay, breakfast, this is what I had, this is why I'm eating this. That was her choice, that was something that she wanted, because she can go back then and see like why am I eating what I am and what do I need to do to kind of move away from it? Eating what I am and what do I need to do to kind of move away from it. So I think just even just like breaking up that brain pattern of like just doing it versus pausing before we do it. So like pause method, that's very common.

Sarah Krieger: 21:21

I always talk about the apple method, like if you want the Oreo, eat the apple first and if you're still hungry, then go ahead and have that. So I think there's like lots of different ways to to document what we're doing. I talk a lot about food pairing for people. So like again, like having the apple with the Oreo, like this is cool, let's do it together. That's another way to become a little bit more aware. But I really just feel like in the very beginning, like for somebody that's really struggling with, and again, this is language that they use. Typically. I don't eat a lot during the day. I'm barely eating anything, the the. The reality is we're we're eating a lot more than what we think we are.

Philip Pape: 22:00

We're just not aware that we're eating the what we are, and so stopping that brain pattern and probably not satisfied with what we're eating, so it feels like we're not eating right.

Sarah Krieger: 22:11

Correct. Oh'm still hungry. I couldn't eat that much. Oh, probably.

Philip Pape: 22:15

So, speaking of pause, I want to pause there because people should sit on this and I resonate really hard with this. I was thinking of an example through Toastmasters Toastmasters, a public speaking organization 10 years ago. When I started doing that, I had lots of ums and ahs. And I had lots of ums and ahs and I'll tell you, podcasting works that out of you too, but I had lots of ums and ahs and one of the roles in a Toastmasters meeting is to pay attention to those. And another thing you're encouraged to do is video yourself, and as soon as you do that, like immediately, you cringe, right. We have an emotional reaction to ourselves. It'd be kind of like if you had a camera in your kitchen. As I was thinking, as you said this, for your midnight snacks, you had a camera just watching you the whole time and you watched back your security footage of yourself and you're like oh, interesting, like here are my behaviors. So the point is it does work, and I think a lot of people are not even taking that first step. It's not that hard. I mean, sarah, what you're telling us is not that hard. It's got to be done. And then, once you do it, who knows what you discover it's crazy and we're going to talk about data and systems and like, really it's all aligned, like that's what you're saying is the same thing. Um, we may just come at it from slightly different starting points.

Philip Pape: 23:17

And you also mentioned how, like the apple and the Oreo or heck you know, controlling your environment and having the bowl of apples you keep saying that keeps seeing the apples. I really want an apple right now. I had an orange for lunch. It was so good, so I'm good on my fruit for a little while, but anyway, um, I'm just, I'm just kind of rambling because I think it's really awesome that people understand they can pause, they can document in some way, whatever way works for them, they can recognize, and that leads to behavior change. Measuring leads to behavior change. Um, what about? What about the deeper stuff? What about when you have issues in the past, past experiences that shape that emotional relationship, traumas? We kind of touched on that, but some people are thinking, geez, it's deeper than what you're saying.

Sarah Krieger: 23:57

Yeah, and I think that that's what a lot of people you know. The admittance of that, I think, is very difficult. I come from a home where we were Italian. We scooped carbs with carbs, you know. We put that pasta right up on that bread and go to town.

Philip Pape: 24:14

That's great.

Sarah Krieger: 24:15

Yeah, you know where. We had big family dinners. So there's a lot of different ways that food can be embedded in the emotions, right? Also, being Italian, we eat food for every single motion that exists You're happy, you're excited, you're sad, you're depressed, it doesn't even matter. There's a reason always to be eating and it's always tied to something that either makes you feel really good or really bad, and then then boom, insert. That's the solve your problem. I've grandma said it would so clearly you know. So there's that piece of it, but I do think that.

Sarah Krieger: 24:49

So, speaking from my own like I'll just speak from my own personal opinion, or take on this experience, which is I always was made fun of, specifically by siblings, specifically by, I think that's that's about it. And when I, in my childhood it was, it was a lot of my siblings as I got older, I always had this weight issue, as I said, and then I got married and in this marriage it was a lot of cheating that took place and unfortunately, I used as why I had always used was food to cope with that element of me. So even when I have moments that I'm removed from this marriage by almost 10 years, 12 years at this point, I think actually, so I'm removed by this marriage. But anytime I have a thought from the past or like this feeling, felt a lot like that feeling, did I go back and it kind of like brings this visceral emotional body response right. Hands might get clammy, heart might start to race a little bit, like those kinds of things, and the first thing that I wanna do, or used to do, was I would used to just go fuel it. I would just go oh, this will make me feel better. The ice I love ice cream. Ice cream's gonna make me feel better. Taco Bell is gonna make me feel better. Pizza is gonna make me feel better. Eating out of this bag of chips is going to make me feel better. And again, by the time I didn't realize it, you know I'm 250 pounds and what just happened to me, you know what happened.

Sarah Krieger: 26:22

And so understanding, unfortunately, I don't feel like that. We allow ourselves to just sit with the emotions. We try to fix ourselves, we try to cover them, we try to move on from them as fast as possible, because they're awful and they feel terrible and that's the reality. So it's a matter of how do I sit in this and just let myself feel this and go. This is uncomfortable, but it's okay, and nothing is nothing is going to fix this. Nothing's going to change me. Eating the pizza doesn't actually fix the problem. It doesn't change the feeling. It's not going to make my heart rate slow down this exact moment right, but how do I just sit here and let this be for a minute and that? We don't like that. We want to try to fix ourselves as soon as we can, so we just go for the thing that we think is going to make us go. Everything's better until the next time. And it happens again and again, and again.

Philip Pape: 27:19

So how do people do that? Because that I totally agree. Like there's so many paradigms of of watching the emotions float by and the river of the mindfulness practices of maybe the pattern interrupt you already mentioned, which is maybe another tool to you're about to eat, you stop. Maybe you think about the emotions that you're recognizing, like. What are your thoughts on that?

Sarah Krieger: 27:40

I wish I had an answer that it wasn't. It depends, but unfortunately in this, what we do, it always is going to depend on the person. I'll say this the majority of women that I have worked with have deep emotional childhood trauma and I am not a trauma specialist, right, I'm not here to help fix people. What I am here to do is help guide them into understanding why these habits are happening. Understanding why these habits are happening and, on the flip side, if they need to go, get that additional support outside of me so that they can work through those things like I don't work through things with people like that on that level, right, but we talk about what these habits are, why we might be feeling this way, those kinds of things.

Sarah Krieger: 28:25

I'm really, really particular about staying in my scope of practice, but what I will say is this having a coach, having a person, one that can relate, that can understand, that can just say you make sense, this is okay and there's a reason why it's happening. Sometimes, give that client enough space to go just breathe for a second, because all of their life my life included until I figured this out, I didn't know that that was okay. I didn't realize, like, what I was doing was actually keeping me from doing who knows what I don't even know, right, I mean we could go to the deep end and go to drugs or alcohol or who knows and people do that, right, they do those same things for coping. So I feel like we don't know enough that it's okay, like these things are keeping me safe, right.

Sarah Krieger: 29:15

I always talk about the previous version of myself, like I wouldn't be who I am today without her fucking up and fighting like hell for me, right, like I would not be, I would not be here doing the thing. So what she did for me the last you know, 32 years prior of my life, she kept me going, she kept my furnace burning, she kept, she kept me alive, she kept me all those things so that I could figure this out and do what I needed to do today. So I wish I had a better answer of, like how somebody would go about this. But I think that if you're struggling with this, you need to find a coach, a therapist, somebody that can help ground you a little bit and help get you to see, like this is, this is okay, like you are not broken, you're not, you don't need to be fixed, but you just need to give yourself some space to be and that's okay.

Philip Pape: 30:06

And I hope, if they're listening to the show and hearing your soothing voice, sarah, that they will understand that this is the first step, like just hearing that it's possible that you can get there, that there's support and that also your identity continues to evolve. Your identity, your, sarah, as well as the person listening's identity, continue and mine as well forever, which is great. It's part of the human condition. That then depends on what level of support they're going to need. But if you haven't resolved the issue, it sounds like someone should at least start with maybe some of the tools here. I'm all for experimentation. Try it out today, try it out Logging awareness, things like that, and then you know, reach out, keep listening to our shows and then reach out for the kind of help you need. Is there anything about emotional eating? We didn't cover? It's a huge topic, it's a massive topic, I know, but just to kind of keep it concise today, is there one specific thing you wanted to mention that?

Philip Pape: 30:56

we haven't yet.

Sarah Krieger: 30:57

I mean that we haven't. I think you kind of touched on something right there that we haven't touched on and I'll just briefly talk about it. It's be open to try things. Be open to try things and they might not work for you. And I think, again, people want specifics. Right, we can. Here's your macros, here's your training program. Okay, here's the exact amount of time that you need to go work out and here's all the but really it's that's not what you actually need, and you might find that this particular method might not work for you. The pause method might not work for you. Okay, so what we got to find out what will, and be open to that. Like, hey, that wasn't for me and that's okay. Like this thing oh man, she talked about this thing on here and that she's crazy. Okay, but there is something out there, it's not the only thing, yep.

Sarah Krieger: 31:43

Correct. That can potentially work for you. So I think, being open, like everybody just wants the answer, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. Everybody just wants the answer. Just tell me what to do, and I'll do it.

Sarah Krieger: 31:57

Man, if it was that simple, we would be, everybody would just write the book about it and you would just serve everything Exactly and everybody would be looking like a hot snack, right, like that's the reality. So, and that's not the case, sadly. So we, we, we got a lot of work to do in our, in ourselves.

Philip Pape: 32:08

Love it, and the fact that you can do it and it will happen, and you just haven't found the right approach for you, is a great positive. That's the optimistic attitude that I absolutely love. All right, so I'm going to tell the listener here that, if you enjoyed this, this is just one half of a greater conversation about emotional eating on Sarah's podcast. Don't call me skinny, right, don't call me skinny, it's got. It's got a longer name behind it. Uh, that you'll see when you search it up. Don't call me skinny.

Philip Pape: 32:34

We are going to talk about data and systems and all that, but a lot of it's going to be aligned with what we're talking about here. So, stop now hit follow, cause this is almost the end of this episode. Anyway, go in your podcast app, find it, use the link in the show notes and you'll catch me talking on her show, and then you could also, uh, enter the world of Sarah, where you can hear about all her other frameworks and her other episodes, which are awesome. Um, she's got a little bit spiciness to her and a really great you know mindset about all of this that I love. So, sarah, thank you for coming on my show. Thank you so much you.

Metabolism Slowing Down with Age? What is REALLY Happening (and How to Reverse It) | Ep 302

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Discover whether your metabolism actually slows down with age and what's really causing those body composition changes you're experiencing.

Learn 8 evidence-based strategies to maintain or even boost your metabolism regardless of age.

Main Takeaways:

• The surprising truth about metabolism and aging that contradicts what most fitness "experts" have been telling you

• The hidden factors that make it seem like your metabolism is slowing down (when something else entirely might be happening)

• Why strength training might be the single most powerful tool for maintaining metabolic health as you age

• The two foundational nutrition and movement strategies that can dramatically impact your metabolic rate with minimal effort

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

• 10 Reasons Muscle Burns Even More Calories Than You Think

Timestamps:

0:01 - The myth of metabolism and age
6:30 - What research reveals about metabolic rate
7:33 - The true culprits behind what feels like metabolic decline
11:41 - Strategy #1: Strength Training
14:35 - Strategy #2: Protein
15:57 - Strategy #3: NEAT
17:51 - Strategy #4: Sleep
20:05 - Strategy #5: Stress Management
22:31 - Strategy #6: "Cardio"
23:44 - Strategy #7: Nutrition Periodization
27:12 - Strategy #8: Meal Timing & Frequency
30:53 - The fascinating "secret function" of muscle tissue few people know about 

Why You’re Gaining Fat After 40 Even Though Your Metabolism Hasn’t Slowed

If you’ve ever said, “I can’t eat like I used to,” or blamed your weight gain on a slower metabolism after turning 30 or 40, this one's for you. We’re told that metabolism crashes as we age. But the research tells a different story.

Your metabolism isn’t automatically slowing down. The real problem? You’re losing muscle, moving less, and stacking up lifestyle habits that sabotage your energy balance. The good news is you can reverse all of that—and it doesn’t require a time machine or hormone replacement therapy.

Let’s break it down.

What Actually Is Metabolism?

Metabolism is your total daily energy expenditure (TDEE)—how many calories you burn every day. It’s made up of:

BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate)

This accounts for about 60–70% of your calorie burn and includes all the basic functions your body performs at rest—heartbeat, breathing, organ function.

TEF (Thermic Effect of Food)

Roughly 10% of your daily burn comes from digesting and processing food, and protein has the highest thermic effect.

EAT (Exercise Activity Thermogenesis)

Calories burned during structured exercise—only about 5% for most people.

NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis)

All other movement throughout the day, like walking, cleaning, fidgeting. This is highly variable and can swing by 1,000+ calories depending on your lifestyle.

Metabolism Doesn’t Drop Until Your 60s

According to a massive study by Herman Pontzer using doubly-labeled water (the gold standard for measuring energy expenditure), your metabolic rate remains stable from your 20s through your 60s—when adjusted for fat-free mass. That’s the key.

So if your BMR isn’t crashing with age, why does it feel like you’re gaining fat just by looking at a donut?

The Real Reasons You Feel Sluggish and Soft as You Age

Muscle Loss (Sarcopenia)

Muscle is metabolically active tissue. The less you have, the lower your BMR. You start losing muscle in your 30s, and it accelerates after 50 unless you actively fight back.

Hormonal Shifts

Testosterone, growth hormone, and IGF-1 all decline with age. Estrogen drops in women. These changes affect your ability to build or preserve muscle and shift where your body stores fat (hello, belly).

Mitochondrial Decline

Your cells become less efficient at producing energy. Inflammation and oxidative stress compound the problem.

Increased Fat Mass

Fat tissue burns fewer calories than muscle and contributes to inflammation, especially the visceral kind that wraps around your organs.

Lower NEAT

As you age, you probably move less. NEAT is the silent killer of your calorie burn—when it drops, your energy expenditure plummets.

Poor Sleep and Chronic Stress

Sleep disturbances and cortisol overload wreak havoc on glucose metabolism, hunger signals, and fat storage—especially around the belly.

The 8 Strategies to Reverse “Age-Related” Metabolic Decline

1. Strength Training

Non-negotiable. Lift weights to rebuild muscle, boost mitochondrial function, support hormonal health, and kickstart the metabolic engine that is your muscle mass.

Start with 2–3 sessions a week, using compound lifts like squats, presses, and deadlifts. Learn proper form, progress over time, and yes—lift heavy.

2. High-Protein Nutrition

Protein preserves muscle and increases calorie burn through digestion. Aim for 0.7 to 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight per day. Bonus: You’ll feel fuller and eat less naturally.

3. Move More (Boost NEAT)

Walking, chores, standing, fidgeting—all of it matters. Don’t just hit the gym and sit the rest of the day. Aim for 7,000–10,000 steps, but even adding 2,000 per day can have a huge impact.

4. Improve Sleep Hygiene

Sleep is the foundation. Set consistent sleep/wake times, even on weekends. Blackout curtains, white noise, and a cool room help. Sleep isn’t a luxury—it’s required to support metabolism and recovery.

5. Manage Chronic Stress

You can’t eliminate stress, but you can change how you respond to it. Walks, journaling, downtime, even 15 minutes of doing nothing can bring cortisol back down and make your body feel safe to burn fat.

6. Do the Right Kind of Cardio

Walking is king. Sprints and play-based activity can help. But skip the chronic, moderate-intensity stuff unless you love it. Prioritize lifting and walking instead.

7. Spend Time Out of a Calorie Deficit

If you’re always dieting, you’re always breaking down. Spend time eating at maintenance or a slight surplus to build lean tissue and recover your hormones. Dieting is a temporary tool, not a lifestyle.

8. Eat Consistently

Meal timing and frequency should align with your current goal—fat loss, maintenance, or muscle gain. You don’t need to fast or graze all day. Just eat consistent meals with protein, fuel your workouts, and stick to your plan.

Your Muscle Is an Endocrine Organ

This one might blow your mind: muscle is more than meat. When you contract it, it releases myokines—signaling molecules that regulate metabolism, inflammation, and even brain health. It’s like your muscle is talking to the rest of your body, saying: “We’ve got work to do—stay sharp.”

This is why training alone—not even counting the gains—can improve insulin sensitivity, reduce chronic disease risk, and literally reverse cellular aging.

Final thoughts

Age isn’t the villain here. Inactivity is. Most of the metabolic changes we blame on aging are actually the result of muscle loss, lifestyle, and neglect.

The truth? You have more control than you think. And when you act, your metabolism responds.

Start lifting. Eat more protein. Move your body more during the day. You don’t have to do it all at once. Pick one thing today and go.

Your age is just a number. What you do with it? That’s what counts.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Your metabolism is slowing down. They say you can't eat like you did in your 20s. It's all downhill after 30. But what if I told you that most of what you heard about aging and metabolism is completely wrong. Aging does not inevitably doom you to weight gain and energy loss. The latest research shows that your basal metabolic rate stays remarkably stable from your 20s until your 60s. So why are so many people struggling with weight gain and energy loss as they age? Today, we are uncovering the real culprits behind what feels like a slowing metabolism, and they're not what you think. You'll discover the shocking truth about what's actually happening to your body as you age and the eight evidence-based strategies that can not only prevent metabolic decline but potentially reverse it.

Philip Pape: 0:56

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're tackling one of the most persistent myths in the fitness world the idea that your metabolism inevitably slows down as you age. We've all heard it or said these things ourselves Just wait until you hit 30, 40, 50. Your metabolism just isn't what it used to be, and these are the kind of statements that seem to make intuitive sense when you notice changes in your body composition and your energy levels as you get older. But the thing is that research tells us a different set of facts and both are not mutually exclusive. In other words, you're both right, and when we look at the data, we discover that the relationship between aging and metabolism is more complex and it's more within our control than conventional wisdom or the industry might suggest. And today I want to break down what is happening. What is happening with your metabolism as you age, why you might be experiencing changes in your body composition getting fluffier, getting more belly fat, things like that and, most importantly, strategies, of course, strategies that you can implement, starting today, to maintain or even boost your metabolic rate, regardless of your age. And it is never too late, before we get into it, if you are right now feeling like you're struggling with your metabolism or your body composition or your energy, I've created something that can help Wits and Weights.

Philip Pape: 2:24

Physique University is my coaching community. It's where I've taken the best from my private clients, my one-on-one process, and put it into a group program that's more, let's say, affordable and accessible to a lot more folks. And we tackle these kinds of issues by giving you a roadmap, an onboarding plan to follow. It personalizes the nutrition and training based on the evidence. And right now I'm offering two weeks free so you can kick the tires. You get access to your first challenge free when you join and within those two weeks you could take full advantage of the program. No strings attached, nothing blocked off, including the customized nutrition plan, training programs designed for your goals, direct access to me, our community for support, for accountability. So much more. Just go to whitsonwastecom, slash physique, or click the link in the show notes to get started.

Philip Pape: 3:11

And I just want to get back into the topic now and let's talk about what's happening with metabolism as you age. First, we have to understand what we mean by metabolism. Your total daily energy expenditure, tdee, which we also call our metabolism, is the amount of calories you burn every day. It consists of several components and if you have to break it down, we typically use four components so you can understand what happens as we age. So the first component is your BMR, your basal metabolic rate. This is the energy your body needs just to maintain your basic physiological functions while you're just going about your business your heartbeat, your breathing, your cell turnover, your brain function, your organs and so on. For most people, this represents about two-thirds of your total daily calorie burn, so that's very important to understand. Next is the thermic effect of food, or TEF. That's the energy your body expends to digest, absorb and process the nutrients you consume. Tef typically accounts for about 10% of your total calorie burn. And then, finally, we have two pieces that are often lumped together but they're quite distinct that are related to your physical activity. One is eat and the other is neat. Eat is exercise activity thermogenesis that is, the calories you burn during planned exercise, which represents just 5% of your daily burn, and non-exercise activity thermogenesis, or neat, and that is all the spontaneous movements you make throughout the day fidgeting, doing chores, standing instead of sitting, and including walking in there, which, yes, can be deliberate, but it's distinct from eat. So if you combine those, you got the other rest chunk of your metabolism. Like I said, 5% for neat, maybe as much as 15 to 30, 40, 50% for neat, depending on how active you are.

Philip Pape: 5:00

The surprising thing that floors a lot of people and it surprised me when I learned this a few years ago is the research published by Herman Ponser. Now, his initial research was in 2021 in the journal Science, very well-respected journal. He later wrote a book called Burn and he showed based on doubly-labeled water, which is a very accurate way to determine someone's metabolism that when adjusted for fat-free mass put a pin in that because we're gonna come back to it it's actually a really important caveat. When adjusted for fat-free mass TDEE, your expenditure, your metabolism remains relatively stable from age 20 to age 60. It's only after age 60 that we start to see a noticeable decline in the metabolic rate, and this is important. I want to repeat that because it's so contrary to popular belief and you might not even believe it based on how your own body has responded with age. Your metabolism doesn't automatically slow down just because you're getting older, at least not until you're well into your 60s. But if that's true, why do so many people experience weight gain and difficulty losing fat as they get older, even though they're eating the same amount? And so the answer really lies in the physiological and lifestyle changes that often accompany aging. And remember what we said adjusted for fat-free mass, so this is going to be relevant here Fat-free mass includes muscle tissue, okay, so it is not simply aging that is causing your metabolism to slow.

Philip Pape: 6:30

Let's look at the actual mechanisms that lead to, I'll say, what feels like metabolic decline and in actuality, does reduce your metabolism, and it's tied to fat-free mass. The first and perhaps most significant factor is just that it is muscle loss. You are losing your fat-free mass. That is known as sarcopenia when you lose muscle. With age, this is a natural process. With aging Starting in your 30s, we begin to lose our muscle mass gradually, and then it accelerates after 50. And since muscle tissue burns a lot more calories, not only at rest versus fast tissue, but for many other reasons that having more muscle burns calories, which I discussed in a past episode, episode 291, 10 reasons muscle burns even more calories than you think. Losing muscle directly then impacts your BMR, your basal metabolic rate, and research shows the average person loses three to 8% of their muscle mass per decade after age 30. And then this rate accelerates after age 60.

Philip Pape: 7:33

And what's causing the muscle loss? A big part of it is hormonal changes. Right as we age, we have decreases in our anabolic hormones like testosterone, growth hormone, igf-1, which is insulin-like growth factor one, and these are all critical in building and maintaining muscle. So you don't have the same hormonal milieu, as they call it, as when you were in your 20s when you're just raging with hormones. Also, changes in thyroid hormone activity can reduce your metabolic rate, and declining sex hormones affect fat distribution and our body's ability to preserve muscle. Another reason is mitochondrial dysfunction.

Philip Pape: 8:09

Mitochondria, as you might have heard, are the powerhouses of your cells. They produce energy, and as we age they become less efficient. That results in a reduced cellular metabolic rate, and then that is compounded by increased oxidative stress, increased inflammation, and then that further impairs mitochondrial function. Then there's the increase in fat mass. So, unlike muscle, fat tissue is far less metabolically active, which means it contributes minimally to calorie burning. And then, as you age, there's usually a shift toward visceral fat accumulation. That's the dangerous fat that accumulates around your organs, and this type of fat releases inflammatory cytokines that can negatively impact metabolism throughout your body.

Philip Pape: 8:55

But perhaps the most significant factor that most people don't consider outside of muscle mass is the reduction in physical activity and neat, as we age we often become more sedentary, we sit more, we move less. Spontaneous activities like taking the stairs, walking to the store, fidgeting, tend to decrease, sometimes dramatically, and this reduction in daily movement can account for hundreds of fewer calories burned each day. And then there's sleep quality. Sleep quality declines with age. Many older adults have disrupted sleep patterns shorter sleep duration, poorer sleep quality. You know, life just gets in the way, right? We get busy, we have kids, we have family. Work gets more stressful. Poor sleep is not great. It impairs your glucose metabolism and elevates your stress hormones. It increases your cravings, increases belly fat storage. It reduces fat oxidation and all of those things functionally slow your metabolism.

Philip Pape: 9:53

And then finally, kind of related to this, but separate is chronic stress. Right, I could put this at the top of the list for some of you. Yes, it becomes more common because we have complexities as we get older. I sometimes daydream about those times when I was a child and I could just frolic outside in the summer in the grass on my bare feet without a care in the world. I look at my pets and I think the same thing. I'm like if only I could be a dog for a day. Now, in my 40s, I know what stress is like. We have elevated cortisol from this chronic stress. That encourages fat storage again, especially in the abdominal region. It also promotes muscle loss, insulin resistance. So it's a laundry list of things and it's not that your metabolism is just slowing down mysteriously. It's that all of these factors, many of which are lifestyle-related, are creating the conditions for metabolic decline, driven largely by the reduction of fat-free mass, the reduction in muscle, combined with all the stressors that I just talked about.

Philip Pape: 10:51

The good news is that, since many of these are within our control, we can take action to prevent or reverse this decline right now. No matter what age you are Obviously the younger the better, but you are where you are, so don't make any excuses. As you're listening to this show. If you are not active, if you are not strengthening, if you are not doing the things we're going to talk about in the next section, this is your wake-up call. This is your clarion call. This is the moment where you cross the Rubicon and you say I am finally going to prioritize myself so that I can live a long, healthy life. I have not just a lifespan, but a health span. I can fulfill. What? The deeper why is my purpose in life when it comes to my physical and mental being on this planet? What is that for you? And so I want to get to the part you've been waiting for here. What can you do about this?

Philip Pape: 11:41

And I've identified, for this episode, eight evidence-based strategies that can maintain or increase your metabolic rate, and you're going to have heard this many times on the podcast in one stage or one form or another. And these are principles. These are foundational, but I want to break them down for you. Strategy number one can you guess it? I'm going to give you a pause. Of course, strength training.

Philip Pape: 12:03

Without strength training, almost all of this goes out the window and you join the mass of the population who ends up in metabolic decline, frailty and diseases of aging. Inevitably it will happen. It will happen if you are not strength training. Sorry to say it, but I'm not sorry, because strength training is amazing. It can be fulfilling, enjoyable and you're gonna feel like a badass if you do it. Okay, resistance training will combat sarcopenia, because why You're building and you're preserving muscle mass I mean, it's as simple as that.

Philip Pape: 12:35

You're doing what the human body was evolved I don't want to say designed, evolved to do is push against loads in the real world, and this has so many benefits. It enhances the mitochondrial density and function we talked about in the real world, and this has so many benefits. It enhances the mitochondrial density and function we talked about at the cellular level. It boosts your metabolic efficiency. It increases your anabolic hormones, all the things right, not to mention making you functional and strong and capable and building muscle mass, just in general. And of course, side effect is you have a more athletic, lean physique. So it mitigates the age-related hormone declines like nothing else.

Philip Pape: 13:11

I mean, it is incredible how many people I've worked with and I will put myself in that category who are in their 40s or 50s or 60s have had mostly a sedentary lifestyle, start strength training and it is like they are a completely new, young, fit person. It is incredible, and the research is clear on this. Strength training is non-negotiable if you want to maintain your metabolism as you age. So how do you do this? Well, I would start where you're at, if you're not training at all. Two to three strength training sessions per week.

Philip Pape: 13:46

Focus on compound movements like the squat, the deadlift, the bench press, the overhead press. Eventually you've got pull-ups or chin-ups in there, maybe you have some rows in there and then eventually you can branch out into machines or bodybuilding work or whatever. But you're going to start simple with basic compound movements that engage multiple muscle groups for the most muscle mass efficiently. Full range of motion that gets you stronger. Don't be afraid to lift heavy. Progressive overload is key to stimulating growth and maintenance. Okay, I've talked about this on other episodes, I'm going to leave it at that. It is so important that you get into this. You start training, you learn how to do it properly. I mentioned earlier we have something called Physique University. We will teach you how to do that. We not only teach you how to do it and give you programs, we're gonna show you how to program for yourself so you have the skill to do it for the rest of your life. That's number one.

Philip Pape: 14:35

Strategy number two is to prioritize high-protein nutrition. Protein-rich diets support the muscle synthesis and they prevent what's called catabolism, which is the breakdown of muscle tissue. They prevent this. You don't need a massive amount of protein, but you probably need a lot more than you have today. Protein also has the highest thermic effect of food among the macros protein, fats, carbs. Protein will burn more calories being digested than carbs or fats, and so you get a lot of benefits with protein for muscle, for maintaining your diet, for feeling full, for being satisfied, for having delicious food and for adults over 40, research suggests you need even more protein, and we're talking again, not a massive amount.

Philip Pape: 15:19

I would start at 0.7 grams per pound and work your way up to as much as one gram per pound and you're fine. You'll never really have to go beyond that, except for special cases or advanced strategies. All right, spread it across your meals and you're golden. Of course, you should be tracking your food so you know how much protein you're getting. That's, that's a, that's a side method that supports getting enough protein. Um, if you want to do that accurately, precisely and easily, I would use macro factor. Link is always in my show notes at the bottom. Use my code witsandweights all one word to get two weeks free. But that will be a game changer for you. All right.

Philip Pape: 15:57

Strategy number three is to boost your NEAT, your non-exercise activity thermogenesis. This is also a game changer for people. I've had clients who are desk jockeys, lawyers, accountants, engineers. They might get 3,000 steps in a day because they're not thinking about it and they've gotten in a rut of just working all day. Going from three to even six or seven massively improves your health, your calorie burn, your longevity and lots of other things like blood sugar control, hormones, et cetera, insulin resistance the list goes on and again. Start where you're at Small, frequent movements throughout the day can, by themselves, significantly increase your calorie burn right.

Philip Pape: 16:33

Using a standing desk, taking short walks, pacing between meetings or during all meetings, if you can doing your chores, gardening right, not, you know doing things with your hands outside instead of hiring everybody to do stuff. Going up the stairs, parking farther from the store and that's just not even going for deliberate walks, which are the next level to this All these contribute meaningfully to your calorie expenditure. So what does that sound like? It sounds like not sitting on your butt all day. Sitting itself is its own mortality risk. So not sitting combined with regular movement throughout the day is going to mortality risk. So not sitting combined with regular movement throughout the day is gonna be huge. And we know that NEAT can vary by up to 2,000 calories per day between individuals of the same size based on their lifestyle right. And we're not talking 30,000 steps a day, we're talking about being fairly sedentary to being somewhat active. So this could potentially be the most impactful factor in the short term, especially for your daily energy expenditure, which will make then eating easier, getting more calories easier or being in a deficit easier when you're going for fat loss. In fact, we just did a mini challenge in the Physique University to help everybody increase their set count. So if you join, you can go grab that. We're done with the challenge. But the challenge document and guidance is there. It's a lot of fun, we gamify it and we do challenges every month. So another reason to join, all right.

Philip Pape: 17:51

Strategy number four is to improve your sleep hygiene. Hygiene just a nice fancy word for all the aspects of your sleep ritual, your routine. To improve the quality of the sleep, yes, we want to have sufficient duration, sufficient hours of sleep. Like you don't want to be so deprived that you're just exhausted and, whatever you do, it's not going to matter. We're talking five to six hours of sleep is really that threshold where you start to get deprived. But if you, if you're over, say, six and a half, and you're aiming for that, seven to nine hours, you know nine, nine is almost nobody I've worked with, other than retired people, are going to get nine hours of sleep. Let's just admit it. Okay, that's fine. Raise your hand, you know who you are. Um, the vast majority of us are going to get maybe seven or eight, and that's fine, as long as you focus on quality, because the quality is what really impacts the hormonal function and your thyroid, your metabolic health, your cravings, your, your belly fat.

Philip Pape: 18:42

And along with that comes consistency. If you, the number one hack I have for you, if you want to call it that, is going to sleep and waking up at the same time. Even if you only get six hours of sleep, I would rather you first get a consistent six hours of sleep, at the same sleep and wake times, even on the weekend, than try to get an extra hours of sleep if that's not, let's say, accessible or sustainable for you. So consistency is actually the biggest game changer for people. Then there's the environment. You know the dark, quiet, cool environment.

Philip Pape: 19:16

Sleep mask I'm a big fan of a sleep mask. I like the pressure that it puts on your eyes. It creates a sense of safety to your body, especially if you're a side sleeper and you're trying to sleep on your back. It's yet another way to create that pressure on top of you to keep you on your back. And we know that just poor sleep is a game changer in the negative sense, like it's a link to reduced insulin sensitivity, increased hunger hormones, decreased satiety hormones. I mean, you get, you could. You're starving and craving high sugar, high fat foods, when you don't get enough sleep. You know this, like if you're listening to this, you know this, and even if you're tracking your food, you're going to be hungry, hungrier, a lot hungrier. Even if you have the so-called discipline or willpower not to eat the extra calories, you're doing yourself a disservice by not getting enough sleep. So if you're gaining a bunch of weight, if you have metabolic dysfunction, if your metabolism is declining, sleep is a big part of that.

Philip Pape: 20:05

Strategy number five is managing chronic stress. Now, this one is a tough one for a lot of folks. Yet it could be the most important aspect, because a lot of us can't change the job we have or the family we have, and those things cause stress for us. And you've heard all the tricks you know mindfulness, meditation, deep breathing, yoga, doing things you enjoy, play, doing a hobby right, you've got to find what that thing is for you. For some people, it's just adding in some time for short breaks throughout the day and just not go, go, going forever throughout the day. It's finding time for yourself. Just like I encourage you to carve out time for training, I encourage you to carve out time for nothing, and by nothing I mean you've got no obligations or priorities in that time you've scheduled with yourself. It could be 15 minutes and you're just going to do something for yourself to lower your cortisol or make it more consistent, to improve your mental health, and this could be going for a walk, which kills two birds with one stone and increases your NEAT. It could be simply sitting down and enjoying a nice book, having a coffee, whatever that's for you to decide, but this is going to be massive when it comes to your metabolism. And if you've done all the other things, later this week I'm doing an episode with Adam Badger Shout out to him Great guy, fellow coach, and he's really an expert in chronic stress. And what I like about him is he doesn't approach it from reducing your stress or coping with your stress, but rather how do you change your perception of stress? Ah, so I want you to listen to that episode on friday or, if you're listening to this later. It's two episodes after this one Because we all face the same kinds of stressors, but we don't all react to them the same way.

Philip Pape: 21:55

Right? We don't all react with road rage when someone cuts us off in traffic. Some of us are able to just let it slide, understand that maybe that person's having a bad day and, honestly, do we care and just move on, and your reaction to that causes a physiological stress reaction or not? And there's a long list of things like that. So understanding how you respond to the stressors can be a game changer, even if you don't eliminate the stress or do a stress coping hack. All right, stress coping hack All right.

Philip Pape: 22:31

Strategy number six is, I'll say, cardiovascular exercise or training or activity. Now, I got to be careful here because many of you are doing too much cardio, but I think there's a place for activities like play sports, sprinting, that, especially when they're anaerobic, like sprinting that can enhance insulin sensitivity. They actually can contribute to your metabolism, your energy flux and your training and recovery. I know that most health organizations recommend 150 minutes of moderate intensity activity per week. That's what, two and a half hours but a lot of people misconstrue that to be like running. I do not subscribe to that. I think your strength training provides a lot of the purpose of that in terms of cardiovascular health and even conditioning. Yes, I think walking is the next thing that gets you to let's say, 90, 95% in this, in this uh bucket, and then the other five 10% could be the play, the sports, the sprinting. I would avoid medium to high intensity chronic type exercise like running, unless it's something you really enjoy. But that's a whole separate topic, because some people think they have to do it, some people are addicted to it. That's all a separate topic, but I would prioritize lifting, then walking and then a little bit of player sprinting. All right.

Philip Pape: 23:44

Strategy number seven is to actually spend time with your diet not in a deficit and potentially a lot of time in a slight surplus, to support the first thing we talked about, which is strength training. I really should have coupled them together, but I don't wanna do that because they're separate skills that have to be developed. One skill is strength training, which you could do regardless of your diet, and then the other is your diet itself, which will support your strength training and the building of the muscles. So I wanted to include this in here because, yes, in the short term, eating more food will increase your metabolism. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about fueling yourself and giving yourself the energy to support your hormones, to support your muscle building, to an extent where you develop metabolic health over the years and you're able to support muscle building much more efficiently. What do I mean? I mean not dieting all the time, or even that frequently. So when I work with clients, what we do is we learn how to control our physique development and control our diet in a structured way where we don't feel it's restrictive, but instead it's fuel, it's energy and we spend.

Philip Pape: 24:49

Most people end up, after they've gone through the first year or two of this fat loss with understanding how to build muscle as well will start getting into yearly cycles where they might be dieting as little as, say, six, six weeks and, as the most, the maximum you would be dieting on a regular basis is maybe three months at the most. Okay, in a 12-month period. So what does that leave you? Well, that leaves you with at least nine months of not dieting. Now, that doesn't mean you have to be in a calorie surplus in those nine months building muscle, but it does mean you're not dieting. I, however, would encourage people to spend a decent amount of time in a calorie surplus early on, as they're doing this for the first time.

Philip Pape: 25:30

As a noob, you know, a novice, late novice, intermediate for the first couple of years, maybe even three years, have two or three muscle building phases in there. Doing that will give your body the best chance to pack on all that lean tissue and set yourself up for the rest of your life. To just maintain that muscle right, you've got to go through the building process once at least once or twice, I should say. You could do it a few more times if you're really into this. You really want to add even more muscle. But even just doing it once or twice is going to be a game changer for you, because now you'll have that extra lean mass, you'll have a higher metabolism just walking around, you'll be able to carry a little more body weight, eat a little bit more food and again, that is a game changer. That is how you increase your metabolism, especially for women in peripost-menopause and men who have a decline in testosterone. It is going to counteract all the things you are concerned about that cause issues Because, for example, the drop in estrogen causes extra belly fat storage and a drop in muscle mass and an increase in body fat. Well, if you're strength training and you're eating, you're going to counteract that. You're going to build muscle, you're going to lose body fat and therefore you are going to thrive in peri and postmenopause, where everyone else is struggling and that's what you want, all right.

Philip Pape: 26:37

The last strategy, number eight, is also nutrition related. It's really your timing and your meal frequency. So the way I like to think of this is meal timing and frequency is more about consistency for your current phase. So what do I mean by that? You're going to be in a phase when do you have a goal? Your goal might be fat loss, it might be to maintain, it might be to build muscle, maybe you have an athletic pursuit, it doesn't matter. You're in a phase, right, and within that phase, you're going to have a certain amount of calories and macros and you'll come up with a decent meal structure for that, right.

Philip Pape: 27:12

I want to eat four times a day, mostly protein, and here are my feeding windows, or my feeding times the. The goal, then, is to be consistent with that. Consistent not just with quantity, but also with timing, right, we're not talking about fasting here. I'm not talking about anything fancy. Just like the sleep wake times, and sleep times should be consistent. Your eating should be as consistent as possible. Now, calories can fluctuate. They can fluctuate naturally and they can fluctuate intentionally, and I think the body is okay with that, as long as you do that consistently as well, like if you have three high days and four low days every week. If you just keep doing that like clockwork, your body will get used to it and we've seen that that can improve your body's I'll say safety that it feels and it will jack up your metabolism. In many cases it probably has to do with insulin sensitivity Again, mitochondrial function your cells.

Philip Pape: 28:03

It probably has to do with insulin sensitivity Again, mitochondrial function your cells, guys, your cells. You want to baby them and treat them like pets that you're trying to take care of, and by cell I mean just everything in your body. This includes your gut health, everything else, yes, and I don't want you to think that you have a lot of control directly over the cell, but the things you do, your cells are watching and listening and learning. They're reacting to it. Your whole metabolism is derived from how they function, and how they function is derived from what you're putting in your body, how much energy you're giving it and what you're doing.

Philip Pape: 28:34

It's lifestyle. All the diseases we're concerned about that are the biggest killers cardiovascular disease, diabetes, et cetera. All all you know all come from obesity and that all comes from lifestyle. Right, we have control over this. We may need help. Sometimes we need pharmacology totally understandable, that's fine, but it's in our control. That's the point at some level. So when you've got this I'll call it metabolic flexibility and improved efficiency and insulin sensitivity you're going to burn more fat, you're going to have better fat oxidation, you're going to have more easily preserved lean tissue and avoid catabolism.

Philip Pape: 29:08

Right, I hope I'm not throwing around too many technical terms here, but really this is what it comes down to. If you understand physiology, biology, anatomy, you understand that you are almost in total control of this, even though to get that level of control may require guardrails, structure learning and yes, for some people, pharmacology. It depends. I'm not ruling out lots of tools for the job. We just got to get the job done right. The effectiveness is going to vary from person to person because of genetics, but it's largely within your control. You just have to find out what works for your body and works for your lifestyle, and you don't have to implement all these eight strategies at once. Please don't do that.

Philip Pape: 29:45

Start with the foundational ones, the first three I talked about Strength training, protein intake, moving more. Just start there, and even there you could just do one at a time if you'd like, pick the one that's most accessible to you. Start doing it. If you want to increase your protein, what do you do first? Well, you got to track how much you eat and how much protein you eat. So you go, use macro factor to do that and log it, and then you'll know within a few weeks how much protein you actually have and how much you need. Boom, you have the gap. You work up to the gap, you get there. New habit Strength training. Well, you need to know how many days a week you're going to do it, what equipment you have access to, and then what program are you going to follow? Again, in Physique University, we make that super easy for you. Come join us, try it out for a couple weeks. Steal all my stuff in that first two weeks. Get your custom nutrition plan, cut and run. You could do that if you want. I hope you don't. I hope you stick around and see the value of it and want to actually learn and grow and develop your system.

Philip Pape: 30:35

It's kind of like going to college that's why we call it university, but in a good way. Well, not good. I liked college. Some people, you know, find it difficult. Um, I found it difficult and I enjoy it, but anyway. Uh, it's like going to nutrition and training school, um physique university. What's in weightscom slash physique. All right, the cool thing.

Philip Pape: 30:53

I wanted to give you one more fascinating little fact here. Okay, about metabolism and aging related to muscle, because we think of muscle as for strength and aesthetics, but your muscle is an endocrine organ. When you contract it during exercise, your muscle releases compounds called myokines that regulate your metabolism and your inflammation. And the myokines communicate with your fat tissue, with your liver, your brain, all your organs, and create a cascade of positive metabolic effects. And that is why training itself not just building muscle, but the training itself improves insulin sensitivity, your hormones, your fat oxidation, reduces inflammation, supports brain health.

Philip Pape: 31:34

There is a still understood, like less understood, aspect of building muscle that seems to burn more fat than not building muscle, independent of all these other factors that we think we know about already. And it's incredible. And this means when you engage in strength training, you're not just building muscle to be strong, to look better, you're activating a signaling system that's just sitting there ready to be used. That's going to improve your health at the cellular level. See, we're back to the mitochond improve your health at the cellular level. See, we're back to the mitochondria again, at the cellular level, and that's why I often tell my clients muscle is your metabolic currency, right, the more you have, the richer your metabolic health will be. And, unlike the inevitable decline in certain hormones with age that you would have if you didn't train, you're going to increase this signaling through strength training well into your 80s and 90s. Isn't that amazing? So when you pick up those weights, you're not just fighting against age-related muscle loss, you are reprogramming your metabolism at the molecular level period. That is the power that you have over your aging process, regardless of what conventional wisdom might suggest.

Philip Pape: 32:42

All right, so as we wrap up, remember aging does bring certain changes, right, that is biology. We can't avoid it. You're eventually going to die. We have to reconcile with that. But this narrative that your metabolism is doomed to slow down dramatically, it's just not supported by the science. I actually get a little bit annoyed and irked when I see memes about this stuff, just like I do when people make fun of how much they love cookies. You know, like it's this inevitable thing. I actually get annoyed by that. Now, I probably shouldn't, but it's kind of a defense mechanism people have because they're not doing the work, they're not focusing on their nutrition and they're not training. Maybe they don't know what to do. If so, if you know someone like that, give them a link to the podcast.

Philip Pape: 33:21

But what the research shows is that many of the metabolic changes we associate with aging are heavily influenced by the lifestyle factors within our control. So if you implement the strategies we discussed today, especially strain training, protein intake and increased movement, you can maintain or improve your metabolic health regardless of your age. Your age no longer becomes a factor. You're going to get younger as you get older. That's my philosophy. Right now, I'm 44 and I'm way younger physically than I was at 25. And you could be that too. I don't care what age you are right now.

Philip Pape: 33:52

Your metabolism does not have to decline just because you're getting older. Remember that small, consistent actions are going to compound over time. This is really about habits. This is a process that's going to take time. You're not going to overhaul your entire lifestyle overnight. So start by focusing on just one strategy today that seems most accessible to you and build from there. If you rush the process, if you're impatient, you're not going to make it and you're going to be relegated to the vast majority of people who do see the decline in their metabolism. But if you do these things, your metabolism will thank you. Your cells will thank you for decades. Right and again, maybe the most important takeaway is you have far more control over your metabolic not only your rate, but your fate than you may have believed, because your metabolism is not at the mercy of when you were born. It is responding to the signals you give it through your daily choices and habits.

Philip Pape: 34:43

All right, if you found value in today's episode, if you want personalized guidance on optimizing your metabolism, your training, your nutrition, your body composition, your health, just join us already. What are you waiting for? You're gonna regret not joining us at Wits and Weights Physique University I have a link in the show notes. Or go to winstonwatescom slash physique. You're going to get two weeks free to just try it out. Open kimono. I will even give you a demo if you'd like.

Philip Pape: 35:07

I want you to know what it's all about and what you're going to get, because I'm kind of sad when people come in and they are there for maybe a week and they don't really do anything and then they leave. I'm like, oh, you just missed out on something that is going to change your life. Yeah, there's a lot of bells and whistles in there, right? You get a customized nutrition plan from me based on your specific goals. You get workout programs. You get workout philosophy.

Philip Pape: 35:32

There are courses on physique development. There's the community, there's the coaching calls. We're going to have some live workshops. We're also going to have some guests on our lives and, of course, a supportive community. Just go to witsandweightscom, slash physique or click the link in the show notes. What are you waiting for? Let's create that sustainable approach that works with your physiology, so that you can combat metabolism with age. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, when it comes to your metabolism, age is just a number, but what you do with your body every day is what truly counts. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How Strength Training Enhances Mental Toughness and Reduces Stress (Amanda Nigg) | Ep 301

Download my free Fat Loss & Muscle Gain Nutrition guide to setup your calories, macros, meal timing, and more to eliminate the guesswork and improve your physique and body composition.

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Feeling overwhelmed, burnt out, or stuck in your head? What if the key to unlocking your mental resilience isn’t talk therapy but lifting weights?

I talk to Amanda Nigg, aka the FarmFit Momma, about how strength training helped her recover after losing everything in a devastating fire. We discuss how doing hard physical things builds real psychological resilience, how strength training transforms your mindset, and why busy people need this more than anyone.

We dig into the connection between mental health and physical strength, the science behind why it works, and the practical ways to build your own strong body and mind even with a packed schedule.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

07:20 - Amanda’s story of how lifting saved her
13:07 - Which came first: lifting or resilience?
17:09 - The case for short, effective workouts
22:13 - Why lifting heavy won’t make you bulky
30:38 - The hormonal and mental benefits of lifting
34:12 - Physical progress vs. mental progress
35:48 - How busy moms find time to train
42:58 - The impact of discomfort in training
51:41 - Can lifting and nutrition reduce anxiety and depression?
56:42 - Reframing your internal dialogue to transform your life
59:01 - Rapid-fire questions
1:04:00 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: farmfitmomma.com

• Instagram: @farmfitmomma

• Facebook: @Farmfitmomma

• X: @farmfitmomma 

• Youtube: @farmfitmomma

• FarmFit Method Training: farmfitmomma.com/farmfit-method-fitness 
  

Lifting is Therapy

Most people start lifting to look better or get stronger. But for a lot of us, it's the psychological benefits that end up making the biggest difference. You might start for the aesthetics—but you stay because it keeps you sane.

When you train with intent—whether it's progressive overload, getting one more rep, or hitting a PR—it rewires your brain. It gives you a structured way to do something hard, on purpose, and come out the other side stronger. Lifting gives you reps of resilience. And when you get those in the gym, you’re better equipped to handle the stuff life throws at you outside it.

What lifting weights does to your stress levels and anxiety

We know that exercise releases endorphins, but strength training specifically has unique effects on your mental health. It’s not just a dopamine hit. It’s a reset. You’re putting yourself under load—literally—and teaching your nervous system how to respond to pressure.

It’s also one of the most consistent ways to reclaim agency. When life feels chaotic, just knowing your training session is on the calendar—and that you're showing up regardless—helps restore a sense of control. You don’t need a 90-minute workout to get that benefit. Even 20–30 minutes of intentional movement can change your entire mindset for the day.

It doesn’t need to be intense to be effective

There's a false belief that if you're not killing yourself in the gym, you're not doing enough. But most of the benefits—both mental and physical—come from structured, progressive work. A short, focused lifting session with clear movement patterns and progressive overload will almost always outperform random high-intensity circuits when it comes to long-term results and psychological carryover.

The connection between physical strength and emotional resilience

We tend to separate mental health and physical health like they’re two different things. But they’re not. They’re tightly connected. When you challenge yourself physically, you're also training your mind to tolerate discomfort, build discipline, and stay grounded.

This becomes obvious when you're facing something hard—stress, burnout, grief, uncertainty—and lifting becomes the one thing that helps you feel like yourself again. You stop viewing it as optional. It becomes non-negotiable. And that mental shift is where the real transformation starts.

Confidence isn’t the goal, it’s the byproduct

A lot of people chase confidence, but you can't shortcut your way to it. You build it through reps—doing the thing you said you'd do, especially when it’s hard. Over time, lifting creates proof. Proof that you’re capable. That you’re strong. That you’re consistent. That your body can do hard things. And that proof builds confidence that’s earned, not faked.

And no, lifting heavy won't make you bulky. It’ll make you smaller, tighter, and stronger. Especially for women, resistance training is one of the best tools for improving body composition and developing lean muscle—without the side effects you’re afraid of.

Making training sustainable in real life

If you're like most of my clients, you’ve got a million things going on—family, work, kids, zero margin for fluff. The solution isn’t trying to “find time” but to build systems that make lifting a part of your day. Early morning before the chaos starts, during a kid’s nap, or while dinner’s in the oven. It doesn’t matter when—what matters is that you’re consistent.

The myth that lifting has to be long or complicated is one of the biggest reasons people never start. But you don’t need a gym full of machines. You don’t even need a gym. You need a few basic movements, progressive overload, and the willingness to keep showing up.

Discomfort is part of the process

The first time you squat under a bar or try to lift something that feels heavy, it’s going to suck. But that discomfort is the point. When you lean into it, your threshold for what you can tolerate goes up. You get mentally tougher. You stop quitting on yourself. And eventually, it’s not something you force yourself to do—it’s something you crave.

It’s more than training—it’s how you live

You can’t always control what happens to you, but you can control how you respond. Lifting helps you practice that. Reps, sets, rest, repeat. The more consistent you are with your training, the more you start to realize you can handle anything.

This isn’t about motivation. It’s about momentum. You won’t always want to do it. But you’ll always be glad you did.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If anxiety, stress or life's overwhelming demands have been holding you back and you've been searching for a practical way to build true mental resilience, strength training might be just what you need. Today, I'm talking with Amanda Nigg, who rebuilt her life through lifting after losing everything in a devastating fire. You'll learn the science behind why pushing weights builds your psychological armor, practical ways that busy, hardworking people can use fitness to strengthen body and mind, and how physical resilience directly translates to mental toughness in everyday life. Today's episode will show you why lifting weights might be the most powerful therapeutic tool you're not using. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:52

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've invited on Amanda Nigg, aka the FarmFit Mama, to discuss the connection between strength training, which we all love, and mental toughness. Amanda is a certified personal trainer, nutrition coach, wellness expert, who founded FarmFit Training after rebuilding her life through fitness following a devastating house fire in 2020. She's a busy farm wife and mother. She lives on a 114-year-old South Dakota farm and brings that unique experience to helping hardworking people develop physical and mental toughness through structured training and nutrition. Today, you're going to learn how doing physically hard things like lifting weights build psychological resilience almost like nothing else. Some strategies to manage stress and anxiety through lifting and tips for building a routine that works for you to build that stronger body and mind. Amanda, welcome to the show.

Amanda Nigg: 1:45

I love it. I love it, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape: 1:48

I'm excited to be here and we were chatting before we got on about. You know you can see a barn outside your door. You're in the agriculture industry. There's so much happening there and even though I'm not a city boy, I'm in Connecticut. We live on six acres ourselves with some trees. A lot of folks may or may not relate to that lifestyle. What I thought was cool about talking to you today is that kind of resilience and toughness that you might have from practical experience with the farming lifestyle, but also working with clients and what you've discovered through fitness. So, to kick things off, I just want to ask you what mental changes do happen when someone starts lifting weights.

Amanda Nigg: 2:30

Oh my gosh, there's so many. A lot of people don't understand the interconnection between mental health and physical health. You really can't look at one or the other when you're talking about physical fitness. Your mental health is going to be right there, it's going to be impacted, it's going to be changed just by working on yourself. And a lot of people think, oh, you know, taking that time for myself, it's more like a selfish endeavor and it really isn't, because you impact those around you in a positive manner by taking care of yourself. And the same token with mental health. Like you can't work on your mental health without tapping into your physical health.

Amanda Nigg: 3:07

And so I think the biggest thing, especially in my industry, is, you know, things are advancing as far as technology. Like they're coming out with self drive tractors, believe it or not. Like we don't have one on our farm, but man would, I love one. But the cool thing is, like you know, as technology advances, what's not advancing in my industry is health and physical health, and we're talking physical and mental health, and so it was one of those things where there's tons of amazing influencers. I hate that word, by the way influencer, I just hate it. I'm like, if you're passionate about something, why do we have to label it as influencers? But that's a whole balling.

Amanda Nigg: 3:50

But as far as agriculture goes, there's tons of people out there that are bridging that gap between consumer and producer, which I'm also doing, that as well, like I'm really debunking those myths. But what wasn't present in our industry is somebody standing up for physical and mental health, and that's really where I focus on. I really want to be able to bridge that gap when it comes to physical and mental health for my industry. And a lot of people don't realize like agriculture is your backbone of the world. We're not just talking like it's the world. Like without the food system, nobody would exist.

Amanda Nigg: 4:20

You know we have those hobby farms, everybody, and don't get me wrong, I have my own garden that I'd like to dabble in and think I'm an advanced farmer when it comes to my own garden, even though weeds take it over. But with that being said, you know, physical health and mental health is something that I'm super passionate about and I love to keep educating myself. Like I, just because I have the certifications doesn't mean I stop. Like I actually just purchased another certification off of NASM for sports nutrition, and so I'm starting to dabble into sports nutrition and youth as well, and so I'm always a student when it comes to learning and incorporating new practices that I can bring to the table.

Philip Pape: 5:00

Love it. Yeah, Sports nutrition Now you're talking my area. We definitely can chat about that. Yeah, no, no, Cool, it's it. That's awesome. I mean yeah, because it all works together. And the more you learn about each of these bits and get the education, the more you realize how it's all connected. It's all connected systemically, physiologically and then even with your mind and with the way we interact with our professions and our careers and other people. So what's interesting is you mentioned the ag industry, physical mental health. What that made me think of was so I'm in the engineering industry and in manufacturing for years. There were always safety issues, right, and the more like, even ergonomically, just having to bend over to do, you know, fasten something together on an assembly line could cause back issues, and over the years they've put in place, uh, more safeguards, you know, for physical health. Mental health is definitely something that the whole world hasn't really talked a lot about until the last maybe decade or two maximum. I don't know if you agree with that. That's what I've observed.

Amanda Nigg: 5:59

I wouldn't even say the last couple of years, yeah.

Philip Pape: 6:01

Yeah, no couple of years True.

Amanda Nigg: 6:03

Yeah, like no, mental health wasn't talked about a lot. It was more of a stigma of like, if you talked about it, like you were weak, is how people kind of viewed mental health. And then, ever since the C word I don't know if I should say it here, but ever since 2020, like, a lot more people are open about it and, I case in point, my whole story is about it, you know, and so it's a topic that is being brought out and talked about a lot more, which is really cool to see, because if you can talk about your mental health struggles, it actually shows how strong you are. It's not a weakness, it's a strength, and I think it's really cool how industries are starting to talk about it, and I would definitely say it's more prevalent in the last couple of years, believe it or not, in my opinion, and tell me more about that I would love to hear about in that industry, because we never talk about that industry on this show, so it's pretty cool.

Philip Pape: 6:56

What have they recognized and put in place? Because I'm sure there's some general lessons there for anybody.

Amanda Nigg: 7:01

Well, I mean in rural America, rural anywhere, and we're talking international as well like they're just, the services are very slim. It's not like I can go to a counselor, like I still have to drive 45 minutes to even a counselor, you know, and when I was going through my struggles in 2020, like so, to give a little bit background, yeah, please do tell me is, um, I actually graduated college as a radiation oncology therapist, so a medical degree. Like, I have that fixer personality, I love to fix things. And the reason I went into oncology is it was an industry that I really wanted to understand. We're talking like 14 years ago, I just put a date on myself. I feel old. Now I'm like 22. Come on, oh, I wish, let's say I look it now. But like 22, come on, oh I wish. Uh, let's say I look at.

Amanda Nigg: 7:50

But you know, even a long time ago, when I went into the oncology field, there was so much that people didn't understand in that industry and that's what really drove me to it, because I wanted to understand it and be that fixer solution. And so later in my adventures, I ended up selling door-to-door insurance because, like, they threw me in pediatric oncology and I'll be the first to tell you like, fresh out of college, I wasn't ready for that industry. That is like those people are saints that can stay in that industry. And so when I started selling insurance, I did door-to-door sales and I learned a lot about myself in that process because, like, door-to-door sales is the hardest type of sell that you will ever have to do. You have five seconds to make that first impression, and so I learned a lot in that at personally, but also the supplemental coverage that I sold. It was still that fixer type of solution where it would money directly to the person if they went through a catastrophic illness like cancer, heart or accidental, but in the same token, it allowed people to choose the quality care they want instead of the quality care they could afford. So I loved it.

Amanda Nigg: 8:51

I actually sold insurance for 11 years, believe it or not, which is insane to say, but in 2020, the day before the national pandemic, we just built our forever home. That was actually half a mile away from the farm and me and my husband poured our heart and soul Like he was the contractor for our house project everything and, as you probably can already guess, our house burned down. We lost everything. So, march 19th 2020, we lost our entire home. And then the next day was the official quotations here lockdown.

Amanda Nigg: 9:25

And so it was like not only was the world and you know, especially in the United States going through this lockdown of like nobody knew what was happening, you know, and we're all guessing like and it you know, there's tons of speculation soaring around Our family was homeless, like we had nowhere to go and and you couldn't even go to a grocery store. Like everything was shut down. And so, like I was super struggling, like I really started to struggle with my mental health, like I wasn't able to sell insurance anymore. I'm homeschooling my children. I'm social distancing, which I'm an extreme extrovert, like I love to be around people. And then, in addition to that, like we're homeless and we're trying to figure out our next steps on top of all this and it was a lot to take in Like I'll be the first to admit like I was very vocal about my mental health struggles, because it's just like I had the only solution that was available was a 1-800 number, which, again, that works for some people and I don't want to downplay that.

Amanda Nigg: 10:25

Like, if you're really struggling, yes, definitely call that, but for me, I viewed it as like a bandaid approach. It's like why would you cover a bullet wound with a bandaid? Because that you don't really. You're talking to a complete stranger, dumping your emotions out. And then what happens? When it happens again and you're struggling again, you're going to have to relive, open that bullet wound back up, get all that information back out and then try to work where you're going through in that moment.

Amanda Nigg: 10:51

And so, like for me, I really dove hard into my fitness journey. I started going to our junk pile. My husband would bring me random like junk pile tires like I'm covered in talking, covered in dirt, like this, these junk pile tires. Because like'm covered in talking, covered in dirt, like just these junk pile tires.

Amanda Nigg: 11:05

Cause, like my gym was in our home and he knew how much I loved, you know, taking that time for myself. And he understood the value that I did and how it would allow me, you know, to be able to give to our family, because it's a lot harder to pour from a half empty cup than a half full. And he understood like, hey, I need to take that time for myself. And so I started posting these random workouts online and I wasn't certified at the time and I remember the pivoting moment for me, the aha moment was in May of 2020 that I launched this plank challenge and it was nothing crazy, felt like it was some generic program I saw online and I kind of tweaked it a little bit and made it more universal and I launched it online for the month of May, which is Mental Health Awareness Month, and I had 800 plus people in agriculture across the world participate in this, Like I honestly don't know the number.

Amanda Nigg: 11:59

I mean, I was getting tagged left and right from people from Australia, uk, canada, united States and it really just opened my eyes like nobody's really tackling that physical and mental health component within this industry. And it was just. Like you know, I did a couple other challenges later that year, but it really lit my fire where I decided to go back to get me my personal training in nutrition. It was where I started and I officially opened the doors to FarmFit training February 5th of 2021. Because it was like you know, if nobody's going to do this, I want to be that change. I want to give individuals a solution to where they have a space. If they were like me, that wouldn't call that number. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 12:43

Yeah, you wanted to be that change and you did. That sounds like in less than a year, totally unexpected, and that's a rough story. Obviously, I'm sure you've told the story many times. That's probably therapeutic in and of itself, but what I want to know is there's some steps skipped there that the audience wants to know of. You said you did these workouts after the house burned down and that helped push you through it. That implies that you were already. You know cause you had a gym in your house. Yeah, would you say, cause. What's the chicken and egg here? Pun intended farm joke, I guess we do have chickens, by the way. What came first, chicken or egg? What came first? The lifting or the mental kind of resilience? You know what I'm saying? That's really the topic of today is how strongly did your existing routine and love for fitness push you through it versus it drove you to it? You know what I mean 100%.

Amanda Nigg: 13:37

I was that overweight mom, so I've always been physically active. I am a very strong competitor. Like, I grew up playing sports. I was the type of kid that was in every sport imaginable and I would excel in every single sport. Like, I have a very competitive drive to me and when I went into motherhood I'm five, one and a buck, 20, 120, 125. Like, I gained 60 pounds. My first pregnancy, like being pregnant, did a number on my body and I had two. My first pregnancy was an emergency C-section. My second one was a scheduled C-section. So, like it wasn't even like your typical normal pregnancy. It was rough and I'm thank God. I love my boys to death, but I'm officially done having kids.

Philip Pape: 14:24

Understandable.

Amanda Nigg: 14:26

But you know, like I was that mom that was uncomfortable in her own skin. I was that super insecure with who I was, and so for me I knew I had to get back to feeling comfortable in my own skin. And that looks different for everybody, like how you view yourself and and and they throw this word confidence out and first and foremost, a lot. There's two ways you can view confidence Like. You can view it as like cockiness. Some people have that cocky confidence. But another way to view confidence is believing in your own abilities and what you bring to the table. And for me I didn't have that. And so when I started working out, I actually started with a CrossFit program which I don't follow her anymore. She went all bougie. If you've heard of Christmas Abbott, she's a CrossFit person.

Philip Pape: 15:10

I'll just be honest. I kind of stay away from the CrossFit community these days, but okay.

Amanda Nigg: 15:16

That is a, that's a cult. Let's just say what it is.

Philip Pape: 15:19

I did it for eight years but yeah, I escaped. I escaped the cult.

Amanda Nigg: 15:26

Well, the CrossFit community appealed to me because it was just you see, all these bad-ass people and you're like.

Amanda Nigg: 15:29

I'm part of that, and so, um, when I, after my second pregnancy, I did do a couple of CrossFit programs and I loved it and and my husband saw the change in my personality, like in my motivation and just carrying myself, like how I carried myself every day, today it was like I had a purpose. And so I guess, back to your chicken and egg comment I had to start working out to tap into my mental health to be to where I am today, and so that's what happened in 2020. When I lost my gym is I knew I had to go back to the ground and get to back to the foundation of diving that time into myself so that I could be able to show up powerfully for my family, especially when we were going through so many unknowns in 2020.

Philip Pape: 16:16

Yeah, that's well said. I caught a few things there that were kind of the deeper part of why that was important to you, one being having a purpose, you said, and the other the confidence and showing up for yourself, time for yourself. There's a mindfulness component, especially when we're in the stressed world where we're just on the go, never dedicate. I mean, I get that as a business owner and you know a very packed schedule, my lifting four days a week. It just is going to happen Like matter. What it's going to happen, I mean, short of some emergency, and yet I probably wouldn't have a really dedicated self-time without that.

Philip Pape: 16:51

So, having said that, I want to understand the elements of training and exercise that are most beneficial, both in the evidence if I don't know how much up on all the evidence you are but also in practical experience, because sometimes I feel like people use exercise in general uh, stressful exercise as well, like CrossFit can be as maybe a scapegoat or an escape that doesn't actually reduce stress or anxiety or it doesn't actually, uh, build the confidence and the resilience right. It's almost like an endorphin or dopamine hit band-aid. What are your thoughts on that spectrum between that and something that's truly rejuvenatory? Yeah, that's a beautiful word, by the way, just made it, just came up out of my ass. I love it, I love it.

Amanda Nigg: 17:39

Well, first and foremost, people overcomplicate things let's just lay it out as it is and especially when it comes to fitness, they think they need to work out an hour to two hours a day and they're like, oh, I don't have time. The number one excuse, especially in my community, was time, and so I've done a ton of research. To answer your question, I've got 800 plus page scientific journals and I remember coming across this one scientific journal and it really hit home for me, and it took these two groups of people, 50-50. It took the first group. They had four movements. The second group had the exact same four movements, but the first group had only four rounds of these four movements and it was like a 15 to 25 minute workout. And then the second group had to. They didn't have a number, the rounds weren't given, they just had to go for time, which was 45 minutes to an hour. And what they'd noticed over the course of this three month trial period is the group that had the set time not only performed better but lost more fat, built more muscle and had more mental health clarity than the group that had to work the 45 minutes to an hour.

Amanda Nigg: 18:48

And the reason for this is progressive overload. A lot of people overcomplicate exercises where they think they have to do a ton of different movements to get a full body workout. And if you simplify that and that's what we do in FarFit trainings, we really specialize on that quick and effective methodology Like, hey, I'm going to give you a 15 to 25 minute workout but I'm going to humble your ass in that time, but then you get on with your day and so, like the biggest thing, especially out there in this industry and you can probably contest this is people make excuses because they're afraid of getting started, or they use time as an excuse, like I don't have the time to invest in myself right now because I don't want to make that time is what it boils down to.

Amanda Nigg: 19:34

And so it was one of those things where that scientific journal was super eyeopening to me, where it was just like, okay, if I'm going to create something, it's got to be quick and effective. We have to teach how to do progressive overload correctly, and we have to really educate people that you don't need a lot of equipment. You can use a tire or a tractor weight Like you don't have to have this big fancy gym, or if you have access to a gym, great. But I knew it had to be an at-home program where I could really take that excuse of time off the plate. And that's the same with nutrition. We really approach nutrition differently too, and so it's just like I really wanted to hone in on both of those and create something that was sustainable, that where individuals could show up for themselves and put in the work, but it could be a part of their everyday life.

Philip Pape: 20:25

You're using all the keywords that I love, amanda sustainable, time-efficient, progressive overload and this is really good. I want people listening or watching to get this message. Number one you said the biggest excuse is time. I was just talking to my daughters I think it was last night so every night we put in a bed, we have these. Somehow we're getting these deep conversations. They're only 10 and 12. They're actually turning 11 and 13.

Philip Pape: 20:49

But we were talking about how the speed of light is fixed and we were talking about relativity believe it or not, I know it's weird, we homeschool our kids too and we were talking about time as like it's fixed, right, I mean, it's not fixed.

Philip Pape: 21:01

If you're traveling near the speed of light, then it can kind of bend and stuff, but it's the only thing you can't change and what you're getting at is that that's the one you can make it as in, you can clear it from your schedule, right, but you can't like create more time, so that's that's important, to just acknowledge that. Like you can't change 24 hours, so it's up to you to change other things to fit within the 24 hours. But then the progressive overload as a way to be time efficient, simplify, reduce stress, humble yourself, like you said, I love that and effectively do something hard that I think pays off longer term in terms of the high you get from it. Let's just say, in which case, what I want to ask you, amanda, with this long diatribe, is what do you say to people who say, well, that's not hard enough, that's not intense enough, that doesn't like I, like my CrossFitter, I like my you know, big, intense, my, my Peloton type workouts? What do you say to those people?

Amanda Nigg: 21:54

Peloton is made for the masses, it's not made for yourself. So, first and foremost, any of those programs Beachbody, peloton they're made for the masses. They're not going to challenge you like a good program like per se, phillip or I put together. I promise you that. And secondly, workouts should humble you and you should hire a coach that can actually educate you on the process. Like, a lot of people don't understand progressive overload correctly, even fitness instructors out there, like fitness people, I've seen them explain it so wrong. And so, when you're doing progressive overload correctly, the first and foremost let's debunk this myth that gets thrown out there in the fitness space is lifting heavy weights will make you bulky, especially for females. That is such a false lie. I am a 5'1 and I'm 125 pounds. Trust me, I'm not bulky.

Philip Pape: 22:43

You guys need to check out her. You gave me like a photo to use for the cover art and you're like, it looks like you're in the jungle. I know it's like a farm thing, but there's like leaves and again, and I'm not, it's not a body image thing, but you can tell I say this all the time when a woman is like muscular and lean, like you have a fit, lean figure and I bet you weigh more than people think, right, Like, and you're being 5'1".

Amanda Nigg: 23:04

Like they see me and they're like, they don't like, especially when I'm wearing baggy clothes, like I'm petite, I'm 5'1", you know I'm fun size, and so when they see me they don't understand the strength that I have. And so, like, for example, I always your muscles Like it, like it cracks me up because like that I can come over and lift the heavy stuff and help him, like when we're fixing our combine or tractor. He knows I can do it. Um, but a lot of people underestimate my strength ability. And that's the thing too is like ladies here is going to make you leaner, tighter, smaller.

Amanda Nigg: 23:40

And a lot of women, when they join a program, what's the number one word? They always say Tone, I want to be toned. The only way you're going to get toned is if you pick up those weights. Do not shy away from that. And then you know again, male and female chemical makeup is a lot different. We're not the same genetic profile. So when a male picks up heavier weight, you know, and hits his protein numbers, he's going to look a lot different compared to a female. Yes, there's some females and male influencers out there that are taking that steroid and they look manly. Let's just like females that look manly. But if you're doing it correctly and incorporating progressive overload correctly, you're going to get leaner, smaller, tighter ladies and those men are going to see that progress that they're looking for. You know most men want that chest, the arms, the back, you know. And so you're going to see that progress a lot more. And the thing with progressive overload is it's got to be taught correctly and again, there's so many fitness influencers that do not teach it correctly, and so that's actually what one of the things I love covering with my clients and educating them on is like okay, this is how progressive overload looks like you want to start, you want to warm your body up before you work out, you want to hit your max, like a lot of people reverse. This, by the way, is you want to hit your max weight in the beginning and by the end. If you have to drop to maintain form, that's good, because you're hitting muscle failure earlier on instead of later in your workout. You don't want to hit muscle failure at the end of your workout.

Amanda Nigg: 25:15

And again back to that case study. That's what that case study talked about is a lot of that group that had the set rounds, those four rounds, in that 15 to 25 minute workout. Guess what? They pushed the weight because they knew they were only going to be doing it for 15 to 25 minutes, versus that group that worked out for 45 minutes to an hour. They're like gosh. We got to do this for the long haul. I'm not going to pick up heavier weights, so they probably didn't hit muscle failure until the end of the workout versus the beginning, and so there's a lot that happens with that, which I don't know how deep you want to go into this, but, like you know, you have to create those micro tears in your muscle and that's how you build and repair it, and obviously nutrition plays a huge component into that as well.

Philip Pape: 25:54

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I could definitely talk for hours about all the mechanisms underlying muscle building and strength. What I would love the listener to get from this, from you, is you know you said it's a hard, humbling thing. I always like to say, if you're lifting weight, weight's the right way. It'll never be easy, but life is going to be a lot easier because you're stronger like later on, you know when you do every day task.

Amanda Nigg: 26:20

you know like, think about it Like I dropped that nugget in there that my husband texts me saying he wants my muscles. You know, it's like that. It's the fact that my husband views me as an asset and knows that I can help him. I just love it. You know like you're independent.

Philip Pape: 26:36

You're not only independent, you contribute even more than independence. Like you know what I mean.

Amanda Nigg: 26:40

Like you can do those everyday tasks like do you imagine how, how much you squat and pick up during the day? Like how many squats people do? Or even walking, like people don't realize how much they use their muscles in a day, and if you're, if you use your muscles and again strengthen them, it makes those everyday motions a lot easier, um, a lot way, a lot easier to be able to handle. Where, like, there was this really strong commercial. Tell me if you saw this, though. This commercial was it like an 80 year old grandpa and he started lifting weights, and in this commercial it was a christmas commercial. He was lifting this weight and his neighbors were older people. They'd peek in and on him. He was out in his garage lifting this kettlebell, like just kept doing this kettlebell moment and, um, they kept talking about him. You know, like, why is he working out at 80 and stuff? Well, at the end, the reason why he was working out is he wanted to be able to lift his granddaughter, to put the star on the tree. Yeah, I've seen that one.

Amanda Nigg: 27:40

That's a good one, and you know the thing, the point of that one super powerful, first and foremost, but the huge point there is a lot of people are not going to understand the things that you do, and when you dive into a fitness journey, you might get flack and you might get people being like, oh, look at her, she's posting pictures of herself again on the internet. Or look at her, she's bragging about her meal that she ate today. You're not doing this for everybody else. You're doing it for yourself, but you're going to slowly impact those around you and you have to realize, like you're your longest commitment and checking in with yourself and being able to be like you know what. I don't want to be that 80-year-old sitting in a nursing home who's tied to a wheelchair. I want to be that 80 old freaking, busting out pull-ups and being that grandma that's super hands-on and so it's just that type of mental switch where something that I do with every single one of my clients is we do a wise statement. Have you ever done that before?

Philip Pape: 28:37

Yeah, or the five wise yeah.

Amanda Nigg: 28:39

Well, we don't do the five wise, we do a wise statement. So the wise statement is your deepest, darkest emotions you have about yourself. So before anybody can even start coaching with us, especially in my one-on-one coaching, is they have to create this wise statement. Sometimes it's superficial, you know. I want to look good, feel good. Or other times it's like my mom was obese. I don't want to be obese. I want to change that pattern for my family. I to be obese. I want to change that pattern for my family. I want to be an active, hands-on mom or dad, you know sometimes Be a role model for my kids.

Philip Pape: 29:06

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Amanda Nigg: 29:12

Sometimes it gets super deep and that's when you know you're on the right path of creating your why statement. Because those why statements like motivations, fleeting, it's going to come and go, but when you tap back into that why statement, it's going to change as you go through your fitness journey, but it's going to be super powerful tool, not only physically but mentally, to drive you to be like you know what this is, why I'm showing up. I'm showing up for myself, because I want to be that active, hands-on mom. I want to be that mom where all those other moms are sitting there talking on the sideline and the boys are playing football and I'm right there and I'm totally that mom. So I have a nine-year-old and 11-year-old boy. I'm a boy mom and I am totally that mom.

Amanda Nigg: 29:47

Like they were playing football the other day and I was right in there playing tackle football with a bunch of 11-year-olds. You know why all these other parents were sitting on the sidelines and it's just like you know. I choose to have an active lifestyle because there's so many moments where I'm not going to have that with my kids as they get older and I'm not going to be the cool mom anymore and I don't. I want to take advantage of it as much as possible, and if tapping into myself for 20 minutes a day gets me to those goals and keeps me being able to be that hands-on mom, I'm going to do it.

Philip Pape: 30:20

Yeah, and that's the powerful thing here is that you have the deep why and now you have a process to get you there and the process itself isn't really that. I'm not going to say hard Again. It's hard to lift weights, but in a good way. But it doesn't have to be taking over your life and this stressful thing that you hate or don't look forward to, like a lot of workouts can be. And I can totally relate, right, because we have dogs, I have kids, we have chickens, they have hamsters and I love to just like get on the floor and crawl around and just whatever. You know, my, my girls are getting tall and bigger and then you know, my youngest especially, will still ask me to hold her and I'm like sure, brace Cause it's more of a deadlift. Now you're heavier, it's cool, you're bigger, but let's do to the lifting weights then, like a great example is.

Philip Pape: 31:05

You know, I see it all the time with clients. I'm sure you do too. This amazing thing that happens is transformation. That happens fairly early on. I mean it could be within the first few weeks, where you don't necessarily see muscle or have like lost many inches in your waist, but you're feeling more powerful and strong and like there's hormones that are just being triggered testosterone, igf-1, like all this fun stuff. Maybe tell us about the physiology, because then that leads to the mental piece, which is also physiological, not just like emotional per se. How does training affect your hormones, your stressors, that feeling of power, like we can get into all that? I know how passionate you are about this.

Amanda Nigg: 31:45

Well, I'm super passionate, but we're going to hit nutrition into that at some point as well. But you know, like lift more weight, first and foremost you release this amazing thing called endorphins and those are like our body's natural ability, it's like your happy pill and, first and foremost, a lot of people once you start to tap into it. That's why you see people working out years and years and years later because they love that. They love that adrenaline rush and that's one thing I love too in the morning when I work out, just that feeling of accomplishment that I get of, like I checked in for myself. This is a big deal, you know, and some days not my lifts are not the best, I'll be the first to tell you. Some days I'm like that was a shady workout, sorry.

Philip Pape: 32:28

I don't know if I should have said that it's all good. It's all good.

Amanda Nigg: 32:30

Like you know, and there's other days where I like I crush that and I into it. Not going too deep and keeping this in layman terms is your body is this amazing mechanism and, like a lot of people don't realize, like when you start to lift those weights, there's so much happening in your body and it becomes this addicting agent where you're like I want to check in the next day, I want to come back, you know, and sometimes that takes time. Like progress I think that you hit that right on the head is progress takes time and the biggest thing is it takes consistency. Don't expect to lose 20 pounds in the first month. First and foremost. If you did, I'd be able to crash diet or something.

Amanda Nigg: 33:20

We all diet culture and you're going to get all back because you're not establishing those habits. You have to create those habits and progress takes time and it's it's the more consistent you are with, like, lifting weights, like I do. Something called functional hybrid training is what I really specialize in and, again, it takes time and we really explain that to clients where it's like you know you're going to start to notice mental changes as you start to lift and show up for yourself way before you start to see the physical changes. And I think everybody needs to know that is like physical changes they will come and they will come differently for each people, like I had a client that went through 12 weeks and didn't really see a lot of physical changes in 12 weeks, believe it or not, but she saw major changes mentally.

Amanda Nigg: 34:08

I shit you not after 12 weeks, week four or um, it would have been 14, 14, week 14. It's like her body just went boom, started seeing the muscle definition. She started seeing the popping, her pants size was a lot smaller, she started seeing her abs and it was like her body just all of a sudden just flipped a script. And that's the cool thing too is like your body's unique and it's going to change when it needs to. But the biggest thing is you have to be consistent and you have to believe in the process and the journey, and a lot of people tend to tap out before the magic even happens.

Philip Pape: 34:42

Yeah, I totally know what you mean. Just today I was talking to a client. We've worked together a long time. She's going to go on on her own. That's usually what I want is for someone to fire me. But at the same time I'm like sad. And we look back at her data and there was a time early on where her scale weight basically stayed exactly the same and she dropped like four and a half percent body fat. But we looked at her check-ins back then and it was like all of these mental things. It was like, oh my gosh, I'm doing something I've never done before. Oh my goodness. And yeah, clothes are fitting better and whatnot. But it's this accomplishment win, win, win.

Philip Pape: 35:15

You know whether it is endorphins and dopamine and also, just seeing, you know the data as well. All of it comes together. Um, it's really empowering. And you're right, like men and women will respond differently. It'll be based on your nutrition, based on how you hold onto. Maybe fluid, if you're getting super like, strong and jacked quickly, that could actually cause you to gain weight, right, like, and you know, and kind of offset Right, and so and again, once they plateau, they're not doing the training right, because you should never plateau if you're doing it correctly, sure.

Philip Pape: 35:48

Yeah, absolutely so. Then you mentioned consistency several times and there's all these words that get thrown out Consistency, motivation, willpower, discipline Did I say discipline? And you also mentioned time and hardworking people who are super busy, and I can't imagine like farming, for example, always seemed to me like a very hard scrabble, tough, you know, kind of lifestyle when it comes to finding that time. So how do you do it all Like? How do you not make excuses when you know life's going to be chaotic, it's going to be busy? How do you prioritize that?

Amanda Nigg: 36:18

Well, for me personally are you talking clients? Because me personally, I just know that if I don't, for me to give to others and so I mentioned that earlier and I don't know if you caught that nugget is I mentioned the glass half full, half empty, thrown around a lot, like it's a lot harder to pour from a half empty cup than a half full, and that's super powerful, Like if you think about it, like when you have, when you show up for yourself, you have the ability to give to others because you checked in with yourself. And again, it's not being selfish, it's being, it's realizing if I don't check a little time, how am I able to give to my family? You know, my husband's super busy on our farm we're just gearing up for planting season. I have two boys that are super busy and ton of sports. They're very active, little men, busy and ton of sports. They're very active little men. And it's just like I know as a mother, like I can't give to them until I give to myself. And that doesn't mean I'm being selfish, it just means I want to be a good mother and I want to show them and lead by an example.

Amanda Nigg: 37:15

And so when people say they don't have the time, or come with those excuses like how do I juggle it all is I get up at 5 am. I'll be honest, I don't have to use alarm clock. My body just wakes up and my boys know it. On the weekends it seems like they love to wake up super early, and during the week it's a struggle to get them out the door to school, but on weekends they'll mosey up at 5. Like, sometimes they'll join me in my workout or other times they'll sit there and watch me and have a conversation while I'm working out, and I cherish those moments because I know I'm showing them how to take care of their body and I love, I love having my boys join me in the kitchen. Like they'll make snacks with me, they'll they'll pipe in and make dinners with me. I actually have a recipe I'm dropping tomorrow that my youngest made with me and it's just so cool to teach them and educate them how to feel their body, because I was one of those people that came from a mother that was always on the hamster whale diet culture. Like my mom right now is taking Ozempic, which don't get me started on that Not a fan, not a fan, but you know, like she's always looking for those quick fixes, and same with my sister, and I didn't want that. I wanted to show them like, hey, let's do this the correct way. Let me show you how to like be physically fit, but also let's dive into nutrition. Let me educate you about nutrition and feeling your body and how, what it does to your body. And it's such cool opportunities that I have with my children where I get to educate the way, and it's so cool because then I use those moments and I bring it to our community.

Amanda Nigg: 38:49

You know, in my space, farm fit training is like it's not just me having those moments, it's a ton of my clients. Like we have a community group chat in my app and I'll have pictures. Clients post pictures of them working out with their kids at 5 am. Or some of my farmers prefer to work out at the end of the day and they'll post it. Or I have have farmers attend. We do something called Farmcast once a month where I do like educational hour hour long educationals and they'll be in the tractor listening to me, in the tractor listening to me, you know, and it's just like we're a unique industry. But again, if your why is strong enough, uh, the rest. It will fit into your life exactly how it's, but it doesn't need to be complicated and it's super simple to say that, but it's, it takes work.

Philip Pape: 39:49

It takes work. Yeah, absolutely, it takes something getting over that initial hump and then, like you said, if it's a deep enough reason, you're doing it.

Amanda Nigg: 39:54

It's almost inevitable and then eventually you get to the point where you couldn't imagine not doing it.

Amanda Nigg: 39:59

You're doing a step challenge for my community and I wrote my boys in it. My son has an Apple Watch. He doesn't have a phone but he has an Apple Watch and he competes with me on steps like make it fun. You know, that's the biggest thing is like this should be something that you look forward to, you know and it is fun and something about checking in with yourself. And so I think a lot of people make it not fun and that's why they check out so early because they view it more as like a task I have to get done, instead of being like I get the opportunity to do this, like I can be able to move my body, I get to be able to feel my body, body and when you, when you view it that way, just the way you talk about it and your language around it, it's going to impact and it's going to switch your whole mental health side of things on how you view what you're doing for yourself.

Philip Pape: 40:51

Yeah, I agree, I just did squats today and I'll tell you, Amanda, that that is that's the one compound lift that is always been mentally hardest for me, right, Because it's just my I'll call it weakest of all the lifts. And I know I I'm not going to say I have to do it I know I want to do it because I'm progressing it and I have a training program and I it's been giving me great results. And so that leads me to to ask you this is that, while you can make things as fun as you can, there is an aspect of discomfort when we talk about progressive overload that you have to face, and how do people handle that initially and then they're effectively. That's part of training, your mind, isn't it? And that's part of the resilience that you get out of it. What are your thoughts on that piece of like, the actual hard part of a really heavy squat or deadlift?

Amanda Nigg: 41:37

Well, mine's pull-ups, by the way I hate them Okay.

Amanda Nigg: 41:40

You hate them, okay, okay I'm not a fan, but you, everybody has to start somewhere. You have to start somewhere. When I first started pull-ups like I love push-ups which is really weird like push-ups are my jam and burpees. I love push-up and burpees, but when you tell me I have to pull myself up on a bar, I struggle because it's just like it's a whole different beast for me myself. And so you have to be willing to get uncomfortable to grow. And if you're not willing to be uncomfortable to grow, you will never grow. And so when you get to certain things that you don't necessarily enjoy, just look at it as, like, I am growing. Here I have the opportunity to grow. Here it's going to get better. I'm eventually gonna start lifting heavier weights. I'm eventually going to start lifting heavier weight. I'm eventually like women.

Amanda Nigg: 42:25

A lot of women struggle with pushups, for example. It's just not their favorite thing. And again, you have to be willing to be uncomfortable to be able to grow. And so what I tell my ladies is your pushup might not look the best right now.

Amanda Nigg: 42:39

Watch the video, pay attention to the cues that I give you. Send me videos if you want me to look and critique your form, but you have to still show up for yourself and still put in the work, because anytime you want to grow as an individual, you have again. You have to be willing to do the uncomfortableness to get through that. And and I can relate that to like public speaking I never thought I would be on stages public speaking about physical and mental health for agriculture at like ag events not my cup of tea. But I know like the more I get on stage, the more I get uncomfortable, the more I can grow and become a good speaker, for example, and so like it's just anything in life. You don't even have to tie it to fitness or nutrition or anything Like it's just. If you're not willing to get uncomfortable, then there's not going to be an opportunity for growth.

Philip Pape: 43:28

A hundred percent and yeah, and if we could teach our kids that, that's even better. My oldest daughter, we have them go to something called gavel club, which is like an extension of Toastmasters for public speaking, cause you mentioned the nervousness of speaking, the nervousness of speaking, and my youngest loves it. My oldest is not a fan, mainly she doesn't like the group itself, but that's a different situation. But she will say the way she frames it, it's like this positive reframing. She's like I'm not really a fan, but I know it's good, I know it's helping me and it's like you know what I mean. It's like that discomfort of we're obviously not going to force her to do something. That's just terrible. But this thing is helping her grow and she acknowledges that and I think it's a strong skill to develop. And the younger you are, the better right. Otherwise, we get into habits of a lot of negative self-talk and thinking we can't do and quitting. Yes.

Amanda Nigg: 44:14

The only time you fail is when you quit yeah.

Philip Pape: 44:17

Yeah, if you don't make the attempt, you've quit. That's true. Yeah, my definition Business.

Amanda Nigg: 44:26

You know, like we're both entrepreneurs, we both have a fitness business, like there was times in my fitness business, oh my God. Like being an entrepreneur is a whole different beast in itself. But you know you have to work through that uncomfortableness and and realize like, hey, it's not going to get better If I just walk away and throw in the towel. Like I have to continue to show up for myself and that goes with the nutrition. Nutrition is a beast. A lot of people struggle when it comes to nutrition. Like the actual exercise side of things. People can start to get those habits and form them. But tying nutrition to exercise and tying to filling your body correctly, that's where a lot of people super struggle because again, we live in a society that is all about quick fixes.

Philip Pape: 45:06

Quick fixes yep, and it's confusing so much misinformation with all the micro stuff that's not important or doesn't work.

Amanda Nigg: 45:13

I don't know if you've heard of nutrition, but this will be interesting if we dive into this.

Philip Pape: 45:17

Oh, nutrition, oh yeah, yeah, no. So part of our bread and butter is evidence-based, flexible dieting. So I highly yeah, yeah, macros, and you know, covering, covering your micronutrients with, with a balanced, whole foods based approach where you can fit in indulgences and as long as you're fueling your body and getting enough carbs and not training fasted. That's one thing. I don't know if you agree on that one, but that's generally what I like to recommend.

Amanda Nigg: 45:42

I am not an intermittent fast girl. We're actually on the same page.

Amanda Nigg: 45:45

So I can't talk about that because that's super important to talk about. It's like I am a huge anti-intermittent fasting. If you're feeling your body correctly, there's no need to fast, first and foremost. And macros for those people that don't know the word macro means large, so you're focusing on the nutritional value of foods in large amounts. So protein, carbs and fats. Now in my training we really focus on um, high protein. Um, because protein is a building block of life.

Amanda Nigg: 46:13

But how I educate and teach it is super unique. Like I don't hand you a cookie cutter nutrition, brilliant. I more approach it as let's make this meal that's going to work for your whole family, because I were, I feed anywhere from four to eight people during harvest time, because we have seasonal health. I'm not going to make myself a meal and make them something totally the same, and so I really focus on making high protein meals. And then what I do is how I can customize. It is different size or toppings, and that's how I hit my macros. And then what I do is how I can customize it is different size or toppings, and that's how I hit my macros, and so it's more like sustainable.

Amanda Nigg: 46:47

But with that being said, oh yeah, if there's an Oreo on the counter. I'm totally going to have it. I'm all about flexibility. Like we drink whole milk in my household because, first and foremost, there's so many amazing benefits from whole milk. But you know, like that's the thing is. Like a lot of people are just not educated properly on nutrients and they feel like, oh, if I have a little Oreo, there goes my whole nutrition. No, it's about building a better relationship with food, and a lot of people are emotionally attached to food and that's why they struggle. I would and correct me wrong, phil but like um, I would take somebody that is obese in a program over somebody that's an under eater, because those under eaters is mental health.

Philip Pape: 47:36

It's much tougher, and they might have disordered eating in the past and everything and overweight or people who are obese have have a lot of energy to start with too, and they will make a lot of progress when they start training.

Amanda Nigg: 47:45

Yeah, Because, like when you take someone that's an under eater there, you can't even address nutrition without attack, like really working hard with them on viewing food as fuel. Um, and you know, the crazy thing is I actually had a couple of dietitians go through my program that were anorexic and that was super hard. I'm like wait, you're a dietitian teaching nutrition to people and you're anorexic. Like it was a hard struggle with them, but you know, they came out great and they actually started seeing muscle and it was. It turned out great, but it was really that mental health. Was super hard to work with them through that because it's just like they viewed they didn't view food as fuel. It was like a negative notation to them shout out to philip pay.

Max: 48:33

I know philly for a long time. I don't know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength, and that's why I choose him to be my coach. I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably. Philip helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations while not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy, but now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently but, most importantly, I do it sustainably. If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a lean, strong body is what you're looking for, philly Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape: 49:17

Let me ask did they, when they started moving more or lifting or whatever program you had them on? Did that tie into a better relationship with food, just on itself or Over time?

Amanda Nigg: 49:28

over time.

Amanda Nigg: 49:29

When they first started, they couldn't even lift five pounds because they didn't have the super weak and so we really had to hit the nutrition side of things and the mental health and the coaching and really tap into that. So I am actually certified um, uh, in psychology. Like we had to really tap into that first before we could even uncover and get them doing progressive overload and any of that talk. And so it was. It was, it was hard, but it was so worth it because now they look fabulous and it makes me feel better because they're the ones that are legit dietitians. They're out there working at medical facilities and it's like how could you have spent all those years being a?

Philip Pape: 50:10

dietitian. I know what you mean. There's definitely a lot of dichotomies like that. I've had coaches who coach other. They're nutrition coaches and they seek me out because they're certain. It's almost a form of education. They're seeking a better education with you. I think is also, even though it's for themselves. It also is for how they can help people. So you probably just helped at least two people and then everyone else they helped in the future, which is fun?

Philip Pape: 50:36

Yeah for sure. Yeah, Cause it's not about the information, it's really about the support, accountability, finding what works for you. So wait, you said psychology. That's an interesting one because I'm wondering from a psychological perspective, when we talk about some common things today, like anxiety, a lot of people seem to have anxiety. Again, I don't know how clinically diagnosed that is or if it's just people talking about it. Like we said, people talking about it, A lot of people are overwhelmed, highly stressed. Where does training and where does strength? Where does nutrition fit into that as potentially a protocol for it? You know, without any other variables changing, let's say, I know we're not talking about somebody who needs, like, some deep mental health or, um, you know what?

Amanda Nigg: 51:17

I'm saying Psychology is, uh, through ICF. Have you heard of that International coach federation? Um, yeah, it's one of the highest standards of Psychology teacher is through ICF. Have you heard of that International Coach Federation? Sounds familiar, yeah. Yeah, it's one of the highest standards of qualifications you could get, and the reason I got that and I'm actually continue working on it I'm working on Neurologistic Programming Master and Practitioner as we speak.

Philip Pape: 51:37

Oh, NLP.

Amanda Nigg: 51:37

But the reason I even dabbled into it is because of the fact that when you start like I've had countless women on antidepressant pills when they joined the program and again we've dabbled into this as like as you start to work out, like the hormones and just the amazing benefits that come from that it also pays into that because a lot of people might take an antidepress pill. Some people actually need them clinically need them. I'm not anti, like if you clinically need it, that's a whole different part. But if you take it because it was subscribed and first and foremost, I hope every doctor is talking to everybody about nutrition and exercise before they subscribe a pill, which is not the case but, with that being said, is like when you start to dive into a physical and nutrition and start to simplify that like anxiety let's take that one is as you start to go through it and build those healthy relationship and create a sustainable system for yourself.

Amanda Nigg: 52:39

The biggest thing we talked about was consistency earlier on is a lot of people get anxiety when stuff is not routine or it's out of their comfort zone and they get overwhelmed with situations, and the thing here is when you start to really start to pay attention to your body and the cues and what it gives off. Your anxiety is actually going to diminish or not because you're more intuitive of what your body needs. And same with antidepressant I've had countless women go off antidepressant pills after they joined. My program is because they realize, hey, I can actually show up for myself, you know, fit it in my routine and it's going to start to change my mindset and then I'm feeling myself next thing. You know I don't really need this antidepressant or this anxiety medication because I'm not as overwhelmed and you also, like, your hormones start to change as you go through that. I don't know if you want to go here.

Philip Pape: 53:36

No, no, that's good. I'm thinking like they had a sense of uncertainty and overwhelm and now they have a sense of control, confidence, structure, purpose. Even if it is like getting in tune with your own body signals, you do it in a structured way. That's like somebody's guiding you to say okay, we're going to look at this information about yourself, we're going to ask you questions, we're going to help you reflect, and then, before long, and then you hit the weights and you hit the discomfort of the gym and you're progressing there too. It's just an amazing soup of improvement going on.

Amanda Nigg: 54:06

Yeah, and it's like, honestly, like good fitness coaches out there, we need to be recognized because, like, yes, there is some pretty shitty fitness coaches out there, but I think you and I are on the same page as far as everything is. When you find a good coach, that is like you're not just a cheerleader in your back pocket, but somebody that's very knowledgeable and able to help you work through those, it can be life changing, it can be super transformative. And so, like I always like to say, instead of calling myself a fitness coach or a wellness coach, I like to say I'm a transformational coach, because that's truly what we are, at the end of the day is we're not just talking about fitness with you, we're not just, you know, educating you on nutrition or, you know, helping you create these habits for yourself. We're really transforming your life to something that, if not, where you were super healthy at one point, to even better, one of the stigmas. So I'm actually getting certified in youth coaching and the reason for this is a lot of certifications going on.

Philip Pape: 55:08

Well, it's good, it's good.

Amanda Nigg: 55:10

The youth coaching already done. I'm certified through NFHS. I'm a level three coach, so I actually already completed it, and the reason I did it is because there was a lot of school coaches out there that I was questioning their habits and I'm like I want to know what they want they have to know, and so the biggest thing there is, like it's they talked about the interscholastic coach or interscholastic coaching, which is like your student at top and then your parent and your coach are equal and how they all need to work together as a triangle, and I loved it and it just made me really eye-opening to the coaching around our area is. A lot of those coaches don't do that. They're all about the W and especially in like sixth grade, it shouldn't be about the W. It should be about developing that foundation and getting them excited to be able to be a part of that sport and move their body, and so that's why I went down that rabbit hole and got that certification, um, which I'm already for you.

Philip Pape: 56:08

Good for you, because that's there's like child abuse going on in some of these coaching practices with kids losing weight for wrestlers who are teenagers, like all this stuff? Yeah, I totally agree they need. You need to have that systems-based and team-based approach to help the athlete as a person for sure.

Amanda Nigg: 56:26

But I'll be the first to tell you I'm not part of the status quo over here.

Philip Pape: 56:29

So no, no, it's okay, we're all trying to break the mold. We're trying to break the mold.

Philip Pape: 56:34

So I like how you said. I like how you said transformation, Cause that is like a deep seated change in your identity over time. Um, I, I use terms like systems or engineering your life, engineering your body. It's the same idea, right, which is different terminology. And then, like you've mentioned, you know you go from I have to to I get to. There's a lot of reframing. I wanted to ask you about that too, Cause, again, we're talking about psychology, we're talking about mental health. How much of this is reframing as part of your identity shift and that is you. Eventually, everything is more of a positive lens, you know, more of an optimistic lens, you know, even though bad things happen. What are your thoughts on that? Like positive psychology?

Amanda Nigg: 57:12

Well, first and foremost, when you start anything, you're going to talk negative about yourself, like, let's be honest, like there's so many times I've, especially after having my second child, I'd look in the mirror and be like I'm fat, like only if I had this, only if I had that. Like how you talk to yourself is a huge indicator too of like, hey, you have to take that first step and be uncomfortable, and you know, a lot of people don't realize like the way you talk to yourself has a negative impact on your life. It really does. And you know, I always saw my mom fluctuate with weight and talk so negative about her body and I was like no, so like, one of the things I do with my boys is I don't talk about losing weight, I don't talk about random, like a negative terminology. I always talk about being strong and I'm like, I'm like so, for example, they would come in on one of my heavy lift days and I'd be like mom crush that she's on fire. She is strong, you know. And it's just like I'm really vocal about it because, like, when you start something, again, sometimes we talk negative and we're our own worst critic and we don't even realize it and it's just that frame of switching your mindset to feeling like you know what.

Amanda Nigg: 58:27

I showed up today, like your daughter, for example. She hated the speaking a thing and she's like you know what? I don't like it, but I know it's good you know. So it's a lot of that is part of a fitness journey as well. It's like you might suck at something in the beginning. We all suck. That's the thing. We all suck in the beginning. But as you keep going, it's just like your, how you talk and how you frame things and how like I get to instead of I have to. Those are huge part of the process as well. And you know and be like I get to show up today or I get to go to a basketball game with my kids or I get to feel our family Like I mean, do I like cooking every single day? Like I'm the cooker in our house? I don't know about you, but my husband does not cook, so if you cook, phil, you're like up on him.

Philip Pape: 59:15

I do about 10, 20% of the cooking at this point.

Amanda Nigg: 59:18

He doesn't even know how to make mac and cheese, but I love him, it's okay.

Philip Pape: 59:21

It's old farm, like the farm wives always go summertime, the grill comes out, then I cook a lot more.

Amanda Nigg: 59:27

I'm, I'm the griller. Well, he does. He does dabbling, grilling. I do love him. He's actually starting to get out of his comfort zone there.

Amanda Nigg: 59:33

But, like you know, that's the thing is like there was times, like when my boys were younger, I'm like, oh, I got to cook again. Or uh, here we go again. And now it's like I get to, I like enjoy it. I'm like I'm cooking something that's nutritious for my whole family, like I get to buy these ingredients to make this really yummy dish that I know they're going to love. Like yesterday, me and my youngest just made these really awesome, uh, nut bars that I'll be posting tomorrow and it was so fun to make it with him and like show him how to cook. And so it's just like I take those opportunities and I'm like, hey, I can teach my boys how to cook. And like I get this opportunity to teach how to fill the bodies, and so it's just like, going back to your question, I long winded that, but you know, just changing your mindset of how you speak to yourself is huge. You know, instead of saying I have to say I get to yeah, and that will be a huge difference in your life.

Philip Pape: 1:00:26

That is a simple one, right there, applied to everything what. There's somebody in our group program. She calls me a positivity bully because I would do that with her early on. She would say things like that, talking bad about herself, and I say, how about we reframe this? How about this about herself and say, how about we reframe this? How about this, how does this sound? And now she's an expert. It's like a skill you know, you develop, and now she's the one helping others. So we love to see that. Do you have time for like three rapid fire questions? Go for it, okay. Favorite lift.

Amanda Nigg: 1:00:51

Favorite lift. I'm a booty girl. I love Bulgarian spots are dead, oh my.

Philip Pape: 1:00:56

God. That's like hated across the world. That's good for you. I love booty. That's like hated across the world.

Amanda Nigg: 1:00:59

That's good for you, bootylicious booty. And those are my two favorite lifts, like if I had to pick one or the other. Seriously, I couldn't pick between the two of them.

Philip Pape: 1:01:07

And the deadlift is great. You like conventional or sumo? What's your flavor?

Amanda Nigg: 1:01:11

RDL.

Philip Pape: 1:01:12

Okay, great. Good for the hammies too, yeah, awesome. What is so, walking or cardio? I am not a cardio person.

Amanda Nigg: 1:01:19

So I'm not either.

Philip Pape: 1:01:22

I am a weight training like which is crazy, Cause in college I was so cardio person Like I ran a half marathon because you did CrossFit.

Amanda Nigg: 1:01:33

That that computes, that computes.

Philip Pape: 1:01:34

I used to be a hardcore.

Amanda Nigg: 1:01:35

I did create a 12 week running program. I'm going to test it out before I make it public. But, um, and my son's in cross country. So I am certified as a running coach, by the way. Uh, I am getting back into running. Uh, if you had to tell me like, walk on the treadmill 15 minutes or for 20 minutes at 15 incline with a weighted vest, I will hands down. Do that over.

Philip Pape: 1:01:56

I hear you. I've just got into sprinting myself, but I do not like running, running.

Amanda Nigg: 1:02:02

Hey, that's better than long distance running.

Philip Pape: 1:02:04

I'm there, yeah and the last one is um. What do you tell yourself during a hard lift?

Amanda Nigg: 1:02:10

oh gosh, actually I listen to meditation music when I lift as crazy as that sounds like the tibetan, like uh chimes and stuff like that.

Amanda Nigg: 1:02:19

No, I have a meditation music that I have on my. I used to listen to music like heavy, hardcore heavy metal. This year I switched to listening to audiobooks or meditation music and I can't tell you like it's the most amazing thing ever. I I don't know. It's just like the nuggets you grab from listening to auto you book when you left. I know some people are thinking I'm nuts right now. I listen to podcasts when I left.

Amanda Nigg: 1:02:43

Don't, it's, not it's it's, it's the time that I get, but, um, when I tell myself, on heavy lift is one more, one more, you got one more. Like, keep pushing yourself, like you can do one more. Now I'll Like, I just like, especially on our training, you know as many reps as possible, like on a training day.

Philip Pape: 1:03:03

Yes.

Amanda Nigg: 1:03:04

Always tell myself would you get last round? You can crush that Like one more, you know, and it's sometimes we have to remind ourselves that, like we always can, like the way we speak to ourselves during that moment says a lot about our character and says a lot about our persistence, but also shows that, like the mindset is so intuitive to your body, your mind, your body will go where your mind tells it.

Philip Pape: 1:03:27

Oh yeah, your body has far more capacity than your mind usually allows and if you allow it, it can outperform more than you imagine. And it's funny, there's two different types of hards I always think about when it comes to heavy lift. It's like either volume work, where it's the reps, or it's heavy and and you know you don't have a lot of reps, but now each one is just this massive undertaking, right. So either one. This morning I did volume work and, just like you're saying, I did 10 sets of three squat, but they were fairly sub-maximal, but by like or not set 10, but six sets and by like rep five. I'm like my quads are telling me can I really do this? Of course you can do it, just you gotta do it, you know, I mean your mind.

Amanda Nigg: 1:04:06

if your mindset, and don't your body, will go where your mind tells it, Like I mean really, you can do anything as long as you could like.

Philip Pape: 1:04:16

believe in yourself. It is true. It is true it's it's like a trite thing we say, but it is 100% true and you got to believe it. All right. So I know we covered a lot of different things. There's probably a lot we didn't cover, but is there anything you wish I had asked?

Amanda Nigg: 1:04:27

Oh my gosh, we covered a ton. I don't think so. Like I mean, if anybody's ever interested in my story, they can obviously find me. But I mean, if they want to know about agriculture, I mean I'm an open book.

Philip Pape: 1:04:39

All right. So you kind of alluded to where people could fight or what you provide, but where can they find you? So I can throw that in the show notes.

Amanda Nigg: 1:04:46

Awesome. Well, first, thank you for letting me get on. You can find me on Instagram, facebook and X as FarmFitMama. It's FarmFitM-O-M-M-A. I am on TikTok, but I will tell you right now I do not post on it. I kind of deleted that out for now and I'm not on Snapchat, so don't find me over there. And my business page is FarmFit Training and it's on all those same platforms Instagram, facebook and X. And then I also have a website. Go check that out.

Philip Pape: 1:05:13

It's farmfitmamacom All right, we'll throw those in the show notes for sure.

Amanda Nigg: 1:05:26

Thank you so much, amanda, for coming on. This was fun. Appreciate you taking your time. Yeah, thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Epic Q&A - 30 Nutrition & Training Questions Answered with Spartan Efficiency | Ep 300

Submit your question and get featured on a future Q&A or dedicated episode or go to witsandweights.com/question

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It's our 300th episode, so we're doing an epic Q&A!

Like King Leonidas facing the Persian army, we're battling fitness misinformation with 30 razor-sharp answers to your most burning questions.

I'm tackling supplement efficacy, training myths, nutrition controversies, and the truth about building muscle and losing fat... all with the brutal efficiency of a Spartan phalanx.

From Instagram physique realities to whether cardio kills gains, these answers (as always) bring you evidence-based advice that works in the real world.

Main Takeaways:

• Creatine has benefits beyond lifting

• Natural physiques with visible abs are achievable even after 40

• Progressive overload is essential for gains but can be achieved through multiple methods

• Spot reduction of fat is largely a myth, but spot enhancement is very real and effective

• The "eat clean or die" could be holding you back

• ...and tons more!

Timestamps:

0:00 - Celebrating 300 episodes (wow!)
5:30 - Supplement questions (creatine, caffeine, EAAs)
12:47 - Training questions (bands vs. free weights, range of motion, overtraining)
23:24 - Nutrition and body composition (Instagram physiques, carbs, dessert cravings)
41:25 - Mindset and biggest fitness myths (training and nutrition) 

Simplifying Fitness: Top Insights from Answering 30 Big Questions

Ever feel like you’ve spent years hitting the gym, but you still don’t quite look like you lift? Or maybe you're drowning in conflicting advice about carbs, creatine, and how to build muscle without adding unwanted fat. Fitness can feel like an endless battle against misinformation—but it doesn’t have to be.

In a special milestone episode, we tackled 30 burning nutrition and training questions with Spartan-like efficiency. Here are just a few of the biggest insights to clear the confusion and accelerate your results:

Creatine Isn’t Just for Lifters

Creatine isn’t only about gaining strength and muscle—it can also boost cognitive function and performance outside the gym. Unlike trendy ATP supplements, creatine has decades of research backing its effectiveness and safety. Worried about side effects? Studies consistently show creatine is safe for most healthy people—even those managing conditions like high blood pressure.

Progressive Overload is Key—But It’s Not Just About Heavy Weights

Yes, lifting heavier over time matters, but it’s not the only path to muscle growth. Increasing your training volume (sets, reps), frequency, or improving exercise technique can also drive progress. Full range of motion beats partial reps for overall gains, but remember—your technique matters most for safety and results.

No, Carbs Won’t Kill Your Gains

Many still fear carbs, but here’s the truth: carbohydrates fuel your performance, especially during intense training. Low-carb diets can still support muscle growth, but carbs typically make it easier and more efficient to achieve your physique goals. Another myth busted? Cardio doesn’t automatically kill muscle gains—only doing too much without proper recovery does.

Instagram Physiques—Real or Enhanced?

Those flawless physiques flooding your feed aren’t always what they seem. Most social media influencers with extreme physiques rely heavily on favorable lighting, perfect angles, and often, performance-enhancing substances. Achieving a muscular, lean look naturally is entirely possible, even after age 40, but it takes patience, proper nutrition, and consistent training—not quick fixes or unrealistic standards.

There Are No “Good” or “Bad” Foods

Restrictive diets labeling certain foods as "bad" do more harm than good. Sustainable success comes from adding nourishing foods—like adequate protein, fiber, and healthy fats—rather than obsessively cutting out food groups. Balance, not restriction, is your best ally.

Ready for More?

We've barely scratched the surface. For rapid-fire answers to dozens more questions—from spot reduction myths to overcoming junk food cravings—check out the full episode. Armed with these insights, you’ll save time, optimize your training, and finally see the results you've worked so hard for.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free for evidence-based workout programs

🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Have you been hitting the gym for years but still don't look like you lift? Are you confused by all the conflicting advice about protein timing, cardio killing gains and whether creatine is worth it? Like King Leonidas facing the seemingly infinite hordes of fitness misinformation, do you wish you could just cut through it all with a simple this is science. Today we're celebrating our 300th episode by standing against the Persian army of fitness myths, not with 300 Spartans, but with 30 razor sharp answers to your most burning questions about building muscle, losing fat and optimizing your metabolism. From whether Instagram physiques are achievable to killing junk food cravings and training to failure, we're going to cover it all today with the brutal efficiency of a Spartan phalanx. So prepare yourself for glory. I mean gains, because tonight we dine on protein.

Philip Pape: 1:02

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are nerding out and celebrating a massive milestone our 300th episode. That is right 300 episodes of science-based, no-nonsense fitness and nutrition advice to help you build muscle, lose fat and optimize your metabolism, and so much more. And what better way to celebrate that than to channel our inner Spartans from Zack Snyder's visually incredible, if historically questionable, epic 300. Just as King Leonidas and his 300 elite warriors held the narrow pass at Thermopylae, we'll be using the narrow pass of scientific evidence which is pretty narrow at times given all the influencers that are out there to fight back against the Xerxes of fitness myths, the immortal supplement hucksters, the cardio and carb fear mongers and the eat clean or die zealots. We may not have rippling CGI enhanced eight packs, we might not fight in anything but red capes and leather speedos, but we do have some weapons peer-reviewed research evidence, practical experience that are far more effective in the real world. Before we dive into this battle against fitness myths and confusion, I want to take a moment to thank you taste of what people are experiencing with the show.

Philip Pape: 2:47

We have one review from Matko Haig who says Philip helped me with my workouts. I was afraid to push more weight because of my injuries, but that's what helped me feel a lot better. I listen to all of his podcasts now. Love to hear that when someone takes the advice and helps improve their life with it, including getting past some of those fears. Another reviewer, jeff, said Philip does a fantastic job breaking down the fitness industry and helping listeners navigate weight loss more effectively. His recent episode on how carbs, fats and proteins function in the body was especially insightful. I highly recommend his podcast for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of fitness and nutrition. Yeah, that was a fun one, that episode. We explored what happens when macros go into your body. I love to nerd out on that stuff. Then we have a review from Alblamb. Love the research-based advice and the vantage point from an engineer. Feel like we speak the same language. Super informative if you're looking to learn how to actually learn how the body works so you can create the adaptations you desire and not waste time on lies and fad diets. Definitely worth a listen. So those are just a taste of the reviews that have come in and I want to thank everyone who's ever submitted a review. If you want a shout out and I haven't given it to you hit me up, send me an email. Philip1l at witsandweightscom. Every time I hear from a listener, it just makes my day. It motivates me to keep creating content that helps you achieve your goals.

Philip Pape: 4:07

All right, let's get into today's q a extravaganza, because we are tackling an epic number of 30 questions Ranging from supplements and training to nutrition, to recovery. It's all the things. Some will be quick, others a little bit more detailed, but I'm going to try to keep them very Efficient and actionable so you can apply them right away if they're relevant to you. Just real quick, before we actually get into the questions. If you have a question about anything in this realm, I want you to go to witsandweightscom slash question. That's the easiest way to get it to me and then I will definitely answer it personally via email and on a future episode, and I'll give you a shout out. You can let me know if you don't want that. Again, go to witsandweightscom slash question and I'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 4:52

All right, spartans of the iron, let's prepare for glory. Today, as Delios would say, the Oracle's words stand as a warning. Except in our case, the Oracle isn't some mystic priestess with questionable fashion sense, but our very own listeners who've sent in their burning questions. I organized these into some categories and we'll approach them with the precision of a Spartan at least I hope so and instead of spears and shields, we're going to have research and evidence. Remember no retreat, no surrender is great for the movies, but knowing when to adjust your approach is really the smartest strategy when it comes to fitness.

Philip Pape: 5:30

So let's start our battle against misinformation with some supplement questions from Helene, and she asked question one is creatine only for people who lift? Absolutely not All right. Creatine is pretty amazing, one of the most studied supplements. It is known for how it benefits your training and your performance, but it has advantages for anyone who wants to boost performance in general not just lifting, including includes athletics, sprinting Um and it also has cognitive benefits that we're discovering. Studies show that it may help with brain function, especially when you're stressed or sleep deprived, kind of in a way that we see adaptogens help some people like ashwagandha. So, whether you are lifting or you want to just have more mental energy, I think creatine is great for anybody of all ages. You take five grams a day. If you want the cognitive benefits, you potentially want to take more 10, 15, perhaps 20 grams a day. Kind of depends on your size as well, but it is one of the few supplements that I recommend to everyone and has solid evidence behind it.

Philip Pape: 6:27

Question two is caffeine necessary when you lift? No, it's not necessary, nothing's necessary. Is it helpful? Yeah, I think caffeine is one of the best pre-workouts that exist. That's totally natural. It's found in black coffee and it's found in a lot of pre-workouts. We know from the literature it can increase your power output. It can improve your endurance, it can enhance your focus. I mean, anybody knows this I drink caffeine in the morning. I can tell that's my most focused time of the day. Obviously there's other aspects and reasons why you don't have to do it. It's like you don't have to eat before you train no-transcript. But for training purposes, take it 30 to 45 minutes before. Remember that it has diminishing returns if you drink it a lot and you get adapted to it, but it can be a good tool. So yeah, it's not necessary, but it can be a helpful tool.

Philip Pape: 7:22

Question three which macro is the most important? So this is like asking which wheel on my car is most important. Right, they're all necessary. But if I had to rank them, I'd say that protein is definitely at the top in terms of physique development. We know it is essential to maintain and grow muscles. It has a high thermic effect, meaning it burns more calories when you eat it. It satiety, so it fills you up. But really you want to balance your macros for your goals and that usually looks like a good balance of protein, fats and carbs. Carbs fuel performance and recovery fats, support hormones and hormonal health.

Philip Pape: 7:57

The most important macro is probably the one that you're currently neglecting, and for a lot of people that is protein. For others it might be carbs. So take a look, track your food, know what targets are and you can get in the ballpark in terms of muscle protein synthesis. It maybe gets a little bit overplayed in terms of its benefits, because if you're eating enough overall protein that 0.7 to one gram per pound of body weight you're already getting plenty of leucine. If you have it from whole food sources or whey protein, whey protein is very high in it and for most lifters, if you you know, isolated leucine supplementation has minimal added benefit, kind of like EAAs, right, you're kind of wasting your money on that. You might as well just buy whole protein, enjoy eating food and definitely creatine, like we mentioned before. If you're fasted training, which I recommend to almost no one a small dose might provide a theoretical benefit, but then I would again just have protein, just regular protein anyway, because some people don't consider that breaking the fast. Regular protein anyway, because some people don't consider that breaking the fast. But yeah, it's found in pre-workouts. So if you use, like Legion Pulse, for example. L-leucine is in there, along with a couple other evidence-based compounds that we know can be helpful for a little bit of a boost in performance. All right.

Philip Pape: 9:18

Next question Number five is creatine safe for people with high blood pressure? So this is a good one. Another creatine question, because people wonder about the efficacy, the safety, some of the symptoms. The research currently says that it does not impact blood pressure in most healthy people and some actually show improvements in cardiovascular markers. Obviously, if you have pre-existing hypertension, consult your doctor. This is not medical advice. Any supplement you're going to start, you should know your conditions, what the potential side effects are. Talk to a doctor, monitor your blood pressure. If that's a concern when you begin supplementing, start with a lower dose, stay well hydrated and also remember that creatine causes you to retain water, which is normal. It's not a blood pressure concern by itself, but for anything you're concerned about, it's good to consult a doctor and also track these things. Get the blood markers whatever makes sense. Take your blood pressure, all right.

Philip Pape: 10:08

Question number six ATP versus creatine. Why do some people, like Frank's saying, use ATP instead, and is it a viable alternative? All right, atp, which is adenosine triphosphate supplements, that is the let's cut out the middleman approach, since creatine works by helping your body generate ATP faster. However, oral ATP supplements have really low bioavailability because your digestive system just breaks down most of it before it even reaches your muscles. There are studies that show some modest performance benefits, but they're very inconsistent and they typically require much higher doses than creatine. Why did Frank Zane use it? Well, the supplement industry was very different back in the golden era and not everyone had access to the research we have today. So if you want results that have been proven by decades of research, stick with creatine. It's cheaper, it's better research, it is more effective. That's my answer.

Philip Pape: 11:01

All right, question seven are essential amino acids, eaas, actually beneficial for muscle growth or are they just expensive pee? I would say more the latter probably a waste of money. They might support muscle protein synthesis if you're training fasted or you have low protein intake. In fact they probably do a tiny bit. But if you're consuming adequate protein throughout the day, your total protein then the EAAs don't really provide any benefit. Um, they're, you know, a waste of money. They're not magical muscle builders.

Philip Pape: 11:32

Your body will use what it needs. It'll excretes the rest If you have sufficient protein. If you're not training fasted, you don't need them at all. Even if you are training fasted I alluded to earlier, you still probably could just have protein before and or after and not quote unquote break the fast. But that is not my world. I don't recommend training fasted. Just in general, I recommend having protein and carbs. So put the money toward quality food, evidence-based supplements, like creatine we've been talking about, uh, and which is the last time we're going to mention it and the one exception, I think, is maybe vegans or those with very restricted diets who'd struggle to get complete protein, in which case I would try to address the protein issue itself.

Philip Pape: 12:07

All right, so let's move on to some training questions. Question number eight how effective is training with heavy bands compared to free weights? So bands, they are just a. They're like a rubber band. They're a way to create variable resistance. They're easier at the bottom, they're harder at the top, like when they are stretched. That is a strength of them. It's also a limitation, because if you're trying to do some rehab, some isolation work, like pull-aparts, for example, band pull-aparts or some of the shoulder stuff that I use a band for in my house, I actually do that. They're great, but they can't replicate, for example, the consistent tension of free weights throughout a movement's full range of motion. Again, that's not a bad thing.

Philip Pape: 12:47

I've done a combination of weights and bands as well. You can put bands on a deadlift or bands on a squat. That's called accommodating resistance, and if you just isolate them, though, and you look at the studies, they show consistently that free weights produce superior strength and hypertrophy gains to bands. But bands are great for travel, for home gyms. I mentioned accommodating resistance, rehab, all of that. They're a valuable tool in your arsenal. I don't think they're a complete replacement for free weights, but you can argue with me on this. There are band-centric programs where there's a lot of thought behind it. You're using special types of bands. It's really good programming. I'm not gonna be dogmatic about it, but for the vast majority of people, just stick with free weights and you're going to have great results. All right.

Philip Pape: 13:26

Question number nine Do you really have to lift heavy just to avoid having a dad bod? I don't know how to answer this one. I'm going to say do you have to? Depends on how we define heavy, and if we're saying above, say, 80 or even 90% of your 1RM, do you have to no. I think progressive resistance, progressive loading, lifting well above 30% of your 1RM, focusing on hypertrophy, could absolutely get rid of the dad bod if combined with proper nutrition, because ultimately you probably need to lose fat. You need to build muscle, you need to lose fat. However, I think the most effective route to that for someone new is to use compound lifts, fairly heavy, to focus on strength First. I talked all about this in last Wednesday's episode strength versus hypertrophy. Check that one out. You've got to build muscle and maintain muscle when you're dieting. You've got to avoid excessive fat gain and lose fat if you're overweight. You want to progress and be consistent, right, you don't have to be a power lifter. You don't have to be always strength focused on one or Ms. You have to challenge your muscles regularly and keep your nutrition in check and you can definitely get rid of the dad bod. So it depends on your goals. Go check out episode two, 97, on strength versus hypertrophy, for deep dive into that. All right.

Philip Pape: 14:39

Question number 10, what is the advantage of range of motion or ROM in lifting? Should you focus on skeletal range of motion or muscular range of motion, which is safer? This is an interesting one, because I really don't use those terms, I just use range of motion in general. You know full ROM full range of motion typically builds more muscle because it creates greater mechanical tension throughout the movement and you hit the shortened and lengthened portions of the muscle, even though we know you could also get great results from focusing on just parts of the range of motion, and sometimes we do it deliberately right. Full ROM doesn't always mean maximal ROM. It means the optimal ROM for the specific exercise and also your individual. You know biomechanics. So for compound movements, skeletal ROM, like getting full depth in a squat, is very important. For an isolation exercise, muscle ROM, like feeling the stretch and contraction, might be important, and you know safety comes from proper form within your capabilities and forcing yourself into some range that your body cannot handle. That. That's where injuries happen. But the best approach is master technique and then increase ROM as you get better at that specific lift so that you're full ROM for most movements.

Philip Pape: 15:51

All right, number 11, do you need to lift heavier and heavier to keep gaining muscle, or is there another way to progress? All right, this is a confusing thing for people because we talk about progressive overload, which is is a non-negotiable Like. You have to. You have to progressively increase the challenge to continue gaining. But getting heavier on your weights is just one form of that. You can increase your volume, which is sets, times, reps. You can even improve your execution quality, especially when you're newer and get more efficiency from your lifts and have results that way. That's more of a neuromuscular thing. You can shorten your rest periods. You can increase just your reps. You can even add frequency. There's a lot of ways the body responds to novel stimuli, right Increased challenge in all of its forms. So as you advance the weight increases are going to naturally slow down. You can't just forever get stronger, but you can keep progressing and build your muscles slowly over time and then build strength and then build muscle, build strength and kind of periodize over time to get bigger and stronger until you pretty much hit your genetic limit, which, I'll be honest, most people never do. So the answer is no, you don't need to. It's a great and simple way to do it when you're new. But then eventually you go into advanced forms of progressive overload, which I've talked about in the podcast. If you go to podcastwitsandweightscom you can search all our episodes and you can look for progressive overload and you'll see some good episodes on that, all right.

Philip Pape: 17:12

Question number 12, can you grow muscle purely from mechanical tension or do micro tears in the muscle need to occur? Ooh, I like this one because again last week I talked about strength versus hypertrophy and the importance of mechanical tension across the full spectrum. Mechanical tension is the primary driver of hypertrophy, that's the increase in muscle size, in muscle mass, which supports both strength and hypertrophy. Past the newbie phase, microterrors, which is muscle damage, it's more of a side effect than a requirement or an input. Studies show you can build muscle with minimal muscle damage. And what's called the micro tear theory. It's been somewhat overstated and that's why things like soreness are not a reliable indicator of effective training, because your muscles adapt to the tension that you play on them, regardless of whether you're sore afterward. So I would just focus again on progressive overload, consistent training, rather than chasing micro tears.

Philip Pape: 18:06

Question 13, what's the deal with vibration plates? Are they effective and who should and shouldn't use them? All right, vibration plates, man, I think these have been around in some form or another for decades. They are something you want to laugh at, but then, at the same time, they may not be completely useless for things like improving blood flow, enhancing recovery, providing some low intensity activation for people who are deconditioned, maybe for warming up, maybe for increasing circulation in injured areas, maybe as an entry point for people who are just extremely limited mobility, but they're not going to replace what we should be doing Resistance training, progressive resistance training to build strength and muscle.

Philip Pape: 18:45

I frankly don't give them a second thought. I wouldn't even look into them. For most people I wouldn't even consider them. However, maybe you found a special case for them. If you have bone density issues, for example. It might be a negative for those things. I have no idea, so I don't know much about them. I don't recommend them to anybody. This is not the podcast really to get into that. Maybe I'll change my mind in the future. That's all I have to say on it.

Philip Pape: 19:06

Number 14, when does overtraining actually start? Is it just beyond the pump or is there a real threshold? All right. So overtraining, what is it? It's a clinical syndrome that develops over months. It's not just something that happens over a few days or weeks. What most people experience in the short term is actually called overreaching. That's where your performance dips and then it resolves in a week or two once you back off a little bit on your training or you increase your recovery. Maybe you need to eat more, maybe you need to sleep more. Whatever it might be True overtraining, which most people do not experience, it's very systemic, so you're going to have persistent fatigue. You're going to have decreased performance Even when you're rested. You're going to have mood disturbances, a higher heart rate, hormonal disruptions right, there's not like a universal threshold. It's very complex, based on your training history, your ability to recover, your life, stress, like all of this stuff. I recommend monitoring performance metrics and markers of recovery and biofeedback. And if your performance is constantly declining, despite having addressed adequate rest, adequate nutrition, adequate carbs, adequate sleep, you're likely overreaching and should scale back. But again, this is different than overtraining. I think overtraining is kind of like the chronic version of lots and lots of overreaching. All right.

Philip Pape: 20:24

Question number 15, getting us halfway through here. How do concepts like go to failure, go heavy or go home and forced reps impacting natural lifter versus an enhanced lifter? All right, so I'm not an expert in enhanced lifting, that is, using anabolics and other uh medications and compounds to get an edge. Enhanced lifters are obviously able to recover a lot from higher training volumes, from higher intensities. They have artificially elevated capabilities to do that.

Philip Pape: 20:54

If you're natural, training to failure on every set can lead to overreaching. Because you don't have that enhanced recoverability, you're going to have central nervous system fatigue, you're going to have increased injury risk without the gains to go along with it, right? So research at this point is clear that stopping one to two reps short of failure in most sets is going to optimize the stimulus to fatigue ratio and it's even further from failure on bigger, heavier lifts. Occasional failure sets are fine, right, like we do them all the time. If you're doing barbell curls and you go to failure, that's great. Intensity techniques, force reps, even cheetah reps, those are all valuable tools. Myo reps, rest, pause, drop sets. But I would use them strategically. I would use them potentially just on the last set or the last exercise after you focused on the main priorities of your strength or hypertrophy program, maybe during deload weeks. It's the accumulated volume over time that's going to build your muscle, not again how often you go right to failure or feel destroyed after each workout.

Philip Pape: 21:56

Question number 16, what is the threshold for overtraining and how do you know you've crossed it? So we touched on overtraining a few questions ago and I mentioned that there's no universal threshold. I also mentioned the warning signs like performance decreases, chronic fatigue um, that doesn't get fixed with sleep, elevated heart rate, et cetera. But I wanted to bring it up here again because the thing I think you should be focusing on is having productive training and really having a lot of recovery and space. Recovery and space and I use the word space to mean some of you are just doing too much. Even when you're lifting appropriately, you're then filling in the days in between with lots of running or lots of cardio or, yeah, maybe you're not sleeping enough, maybe you're not eating enough, maybe you're under eating and then doing the wrong program while you're under eating. So tracking recovery metrics like HRV could be helpful and your biofeedback on scores scales of one to 10, like your sleep, your stress, your hunger, your digestion and so on, your mood, even your libido, and when those scores are failing, despite the adequate rest and nutrition, that is when you've crossed the line. That is the threshold to me.

Philip Pape: 23:01

Question number 17,. Should beginners train differently than intermediate or advanced lifters, or is progressive overload always the answer? Okay, so I'm going to say yes to both. In other words, progressive overload is the principle no matter what, but the way that you train, the method that you train, will change based on your beginner, intermediate or advanced. To achieve progressive overload? Great question, because I'd love to make that distinction.

Philip Pape: 23:24

Training's gonna evolve with your experience. Beginners are gonna benefit most from learning proper technique, having moderate volume but high frequency. That means you're squatting a lot or you're benching a lot because you can recover quickly, focusing on the compound lifts because they're very efficient, they use more muscle mass, they recruit more muscle fibers, going heavier and focusing on strength and training your full body, usually three days a week, and you're going to progress not just weekly but every session as you master these movement patterns and develop that neuromuscular efficiency media. And you need more volume. You need weak point training. You need potentially body part splits right, you need more accessory work, you need more medium and lighter intensity work for the main lifts and so on Once you become advanced. Now you need periodization, specialization, specific recovery strategies like stretching out your training weeks. There's so many things you know base and peak development, mesocycles and so on but progressive overload remains the same principle, no matter who you are. It's just how you implement the changes right and a beginner is going to add, you know, five pounds to their squat every session. An advanced lifter might add five pounds every six months to a year, right. So they're still progressing, but the training variables that drive the progress shift as you advance.

Philip Pape: 24:42

All right, so let's move on to some nutrition and body composition questions. Now we've got question 18. How realistic is it to be muscular with six pack abs? Is everybody on Instagram really on steroids? What about those 40 or older? Can they achieve that? Look naturally, all right.

Philip Pape: 25:00

The Instagram physique, which I get flooded with it in my search tab, no matter, even if I try to search for things that have nothing to do with it, eventually it works its way back to just flooding me with these incredible bodybuilder style physiques. They're pretty much all enhanced, right, and the massive muscles, they're shredded abs all year round, right For for natural lifters. That is not sustainable. You might get to that point for a brief period and if you want to do that, fine, have fun with it, figure it out. It's fun to do that. But the influencers most of them are enhanced. Most of them are using favorable lighting or angles. Many of them are just maintaining a specific pose or angle or condition. Briefly, for the photos. Actually, I appreciate some of the influencers who show what they look like five minutes apart based on two different poses and lighting. You know, one case they look kind of frumpy and flabby and in the other case they're like jacked. You get it right. It's all manipulation.

Philip Pape: 25:55

But having said all that, being muscular with visible abs, you know, not necessarily dice-like like you know, totally shredded with vascularity, but really solid abs, it's totally achievable, naturally, even over 40. There's no age limit. I know a guy whose podcast I was on. He's in his 80s, he's a competitive bodybuilder and he has abs. It's just having enough muscle and low enough fat, which takes years to do. You're not going to just reveal your abs immediately Now. Could you cut fat down significantly and reveal abs without spending too much time building muscle, possibly based on your genetics, but for most people you got to train your abs and there are effective loaded ways to do that, and then you've got to diet down to have low enough body fat to show them. But trust me, I mean myself. I'm in my forties and every cycle I go through of building muscle, the abs are more and more visible at a higher body fat. So it kind of takes precision initially, but then you can get a pretty impressive physique well into your fifties, sixties, beyond, by doing the things we talk about.

Philip Pape: 26:55

Question 19,. Can you lift big without eating a ton of carbs, or do you need them for performance? Oh, I love questions about carbs. You can absolutely lift heavy on lower carb intakes, right. Just look at any strength athlete in weight class sports who minimize carbs when they're cutting. Look at myself right now. I'm in a fat loss phase on very low calories, intentionally so, because I'm going aggressively for a mini cut and I'm still lifting heavy. Doesn't mean I'm going to hit PRs, right.

Philip Pape: 27:26

There's a reason that carbs are the preferred fuel for high-intensity exercise. They efficiently convert, or the carbs are converted to ATP and that helps with those explosive movements. And studies always not always consistently show that moderate to high-carb intake optimizes performance for lifters and helps you build more muscle versus lower carb diets period. However, the individual response matters. If you're say, quote unquote keto adapted I kind of cringe at the term, but you're keto adapted or you prefer low carb for other reasons, you can definitely make gains, but then you have to really pay attention to your total calories, your protein timing, the carbs that you do have strategically around your workouts and maybe using only targeted, periodized approaches when you're talking about low carbs, but if it's not like a dogmatic thing that you feel you have to follow, just eat your carbs. It's going to help you perform better. You could definitely lift big in a fat loss phase while you're not eating that many carbs. You just may not increase your strength or muscle, but you're definitely going to hold on to it. All right. Question 20. We're getting there Two-thirds of the way through here.

Philip Pape: 28:28

Is it true that cardio kills gains or muscle? What about heart health? Is walking enough? So cardio only kills gains when it creates a deficit in your recovery, when it impedes you from recovering or when it exacerbates your calorie deficit to push you into an extreme where you lose muscle. Now it's almost hard to get there for a lot of people, because when you do too much cardio, your body will actually compensate by lowering your metabolism, but then what that ends up doing is forcing you to eat less to maintain a deficit. That's what I mean, not that that cardio itself gets into a deficit. So moderate cardio, especially walking. Walking, yeah, it's a form of cardio, but cycling, swimming, can absolutely enhance recovery. They can help with your work capacity, with your conditioning. They can support muscle growth by helping with nutrient delivery, with blood sugar, with insulin sensitivity, the list goes on. For heart health, walking is the foundation. If you're hitting that like 7,000 to 10,000 steps a day, it is ideal, and then adding in once or twice a week some sprinting, is a solid approach. Any other cardio it's really up to you how you're able to manage the recovery program. It in keep it from being intense and separate it from, like your leg workouts and, ideally, from your training days. But no, it's not gonna kill gains unless it kills recovery.

Philip Pape: 29:49

Question 21, why do we always have room for dessert, even when we're full? Is there a biological reason for sweet cravings? Okay, and I joked, I think I joked and I said oh, you mean the dessert chamber, like my family's joked about for years, where you could even be stuffed from dinner and somehow still have room for ice cream or that pie, thanksgiving anyone, or the holidays. So this is called sensory-specific satiety, in case you want to label it Basically your taste buds. They get bored with similar flavors but then they respond to new ones that are sweet, that are novel. The food science industry absolutely knows this phenomenon because our brains evolved to prioritize energy-dense foods, especially sugar, when they are available, because they were rare in our evolutionary past. And sweet foods also trigger dopamine, that's your pleasure-reward chemical, and that creates a feedback loop that makes you want to eat more. Right? So, physiologically, your stretch receptors in your stomach might say you're full, but your hedonic hunger system that's the pleasure-based eating overrides those signals. When having protein first, having a drink of water, that reduces this effect when compared to, say, starting with carbs or fats. So, yes, the answer is yes, there's a biological reason for this, but it doesn't mean you have no control.

Philip Pape: 31:14

Question 22, how do you kill cravings for junk food and actually feel satisfied with healthy choices? So I thought this was a natural segue from the last question. This is both physiological that means your body, your biology, it's also psychological in your mind, which are connected. We know this. So the first thing is to ensure your diet has enough protein, which you want anyway. It keeps you full, it's great for muscles, et cetera. Enough fiber, which helps stabilize blood sugar. It's great for your gut, for your digestion, also for satiety. Fiber which helps stabilize blood sugar it's great for your gut, for your digestion, also for satiety. And people on carnivore are missing out on that benefit. And also enough fat, because fat does increase satisfaction in terms of mouthfeel, taste and so on. And so cravings often hit when we are under eating satiating nutrients. It's interesting, right, because you would think it comes from eating too much or eating the wrong things, but it's under eating the things that we need. So that's why I like additive nutrition adding in the things that we want and need.

Philip Pape: 32:09

The second thing is addressing your habit loops, and that is identifying the triggers for your cravings and then create new routines around those, having a pattern, interrupt or a swap. And then, third, you want to gradually replace foods with the additive approach. You've got ultra-processed foods. Replace them with more nutritious whole foods that have similar taste profiles and experiences. Right, kind of like roasted chickpeas might give you a similar experience as potato chips, and your palate is going to adapt over time. It's going to get used to things. You're going to eventually not really like some of those ultra-processed foods or restaurant food. Anyway, your body is going to rebel as you're eating more nutritious foods. And of course, the last thing and I should have started with this, but don't make any food forbidden. There is no bad food. There's no good food, because what you're doing is you're increasing the psychological weight or value of the food. Instead, you want to plan the occasional indulgences in rather than have them reactively, so it avoids decision fatigue and you just have them as part of your plan. Consistency is always going to beat perfection and the sustainable changes like this are going to win over deprivation every time.

Philip Pape: 33:18

Number 23, is spot reduction of fat a myth? What actually happens to fat during exercise? I mean, this is kind of a loaded question. It could be a whole episode by itself. Spot reduction itself is largely a myth. When your body needs energy, it's gonna release fatty acids from your entire fat stores, regardless of which muscles you're working, and fat is mobilized based on hormonal signals. It has nothing to do with local muscle activity. What happens during exercise is you create a little bit of an energy deficit in the moment, and that prompts your body to release fatty acids into the bloodstream for energy, in addition to the energy you get, of course, from glycogen, from glucose, and the fat is transported to your muscles to be oxidized for fuel. There are studies that show this very tiny increased blood flow and lipolysis in areas that are trained directly, like your abs, but the effect is so small that it can't possibly create spot reduction. So the most effective approach again is going to be a calorie deficit through diet, through training Resistance training helps preserve muscle and build muscle, and don't overthink trying to reduce anything in a particular area.

Philip Pape: 34:24

Question number 24, can targeted exercises build muscle in a specific area even if they don't reduce fat in that spot? So again, I wanted to segue from the last one, because this is an absolute yes. So while, like, spot reduction is pretty much a myth, spot enhancement is a real thing. If you think of it that way, it will give you the physical and the physique result you're looking for without the necessity of spot reduction. You can target your biceps by using more bicep curls. You can target your glutes through squats and hip thrusts. You can target your abs through loaded ab work. Right, the caveat is that there are genetic factors. You may not have a six pack or an eight pack. You may have a seven pack. You may have something wonky there, you can't do anything about that, but you can add muscle there and then you can lose fat, kind of like we talked about earlier. Right, and the more muscle you have, the higher body fat you can carry and still see and improve the appearance of that area. And also, by the way, when you have more muscle it kind of stretches out the skin and the fat in a way that is usually also aesthetically pleasing, even when you don't lose fat. That's why I'm a big fan of gaining and building muscle in certain periods.

Philip Pape: 35:38

All right, question number 25. Can you bulk without eating traditional carbs, eg just protein, eggs, milk, et cetera and will you still gain fat? So you're saying basically, low carb or no carb, kind of keto, carnivore, things like that. I would say I'm going to be open-minded here and say yes to both questions. You can gain muscle on a low carb or ketogenic diet, provided you have a calorie surplus and you have plenty of protein diet, provided you have a calorie surplus and you have plenty of protein. And there are some studies that show some comparable gains between lower carb and higher carb. But most show a gap where the higher carbs tend to allow you to produce or build more muscle. But there's always nuances in the variables. So again, that's why I'm always open-minded about this and think a flexible approach is warranted and not to just say, no, you can't have carbs at all, but for the vast majority of people, having more carbs is going to help you build more muscle and it just makes for a more flexible diet anyway more enjoyable diet for most people.

Philip Pape: 36:32

For fat gain you're going to gain fat if you're in a surplus, no matter what the macros are. So that has to do with energy balance period. Now, if you have more carbs while you're gaining weight, there is a chance that more of the energy surplus goes toward muscle and you'll actually gain less fat than if you were low carb. So that is true, but it still has to do with the surplus. It still comes down to proper training, protein timing, nutrient partition, strategies that can minimize fat while maximizing muscle, the way we've talked about before when we talk about at what rate to build and how to do it. So I think the bottom line is carbs can make bulking easier and more performance optimal, but they're not quote unquote mandatory.

Philip Pape: 37:11

All right, question number 26. Should bulking and cutting be saved for years, three plus of lifting or should you start sooner? I struggle with how to answer this because it's going to highly depend on the person and what they want to do. For some people, bulking and cutting can be a lot of fun when I work with clients because they have my help and they can lean to me when they hit plateaus and such. We will have a couple months at maintenance and then lean into a cutting phase or a bulking phase, depending on what they're going for. But that's also partly because they have my support. They have some accountability to fall back on, or those in our physique university same thing.

Philip Pape: 37:48

If you're doing it on your own, I still also think you can do it. I would say at the beginning it would be helpful to be at a slight, very tiny, tiny surplus to make sure you're fully recovered and find your new and true maintenance calories while you're training, to give yourself all the resources you need to train for strength in those first three to six months, and then I would go into a fat loss phase. Again, I have plenty of clients who never trained before they start training with me. We spend two months in maintenance and then go into fat loss and it just depends on what you're ready for how many calories you're able to eat, based on your metabolism, whether you are starting very lean or you have a lot of weight to lose, struggling to progress, et cetera. Right, some people don't like being in maintenance because it feels like they're not doing anything, and it takes its own form of psychological control, in which case even small bulk and cut cycles could be a good way to test the waters. So I would say no, it shouldn't be saved for three plus of lifting. I think that there's no should about it. It depends on what you want. I would say experiment and see how it goes and make sure you're in control and you're tracking your food and all of that, because otherwise it's actually going to be a lot harder.

Philip Pape: 38:58

All right, question 27. Why are people still afraid of fat, which I think you mean like fat consumption and what are the negative effects of avoiding it on recovery, strength and hormones? So we don't talk about fat as much as protein and carbs. And there was like decades of misguided dogma on fat, like the low fat craze of the eighties nineties. I grew up in the eighties so I saw a lot of that with the snack wells and the Olestra, disgusting like synthetic fat and all this stuff. Um, the move toward margarine instead of butter and all that which we know. There was like a back backlash in the other extreme, which always happens, but it's like very deeply imprinted in the public consciousness, despite it all being based on flawed research. Okay, consciousness, despite it all being based on flawed research.

Philip Pape: 39:41

There are consequences when you chronically avoid fat, predominantly to your hormone production, especially testosterone and estrogen. Also, fat helps you absorb fat-soluble vitamins A, d, e, k, so it's going to make that less efficient. It can impair your cell membrane function. It can make you more inflammatory. It can decrease your satiety. It could increase your consumption of sugar to compensate because of the lack of flavor, because you have no fat.

Philip Pape: 40:06

So for strength athletes like, having adequate fat, which is usually above a half gram per kilogram of body weight, let's say, is going to affect, or I should say having adequate fat is good for recovery and performance. Having adequate fat could start to eat into that. So if I have a client in a dieting phase, I never want them to go below like rock bottom. Probably 20 grams, maybe 15 grams if they're super lean and we're really pulling out all the stops Like that's rock bottom. But usually people are in the 20s and 30s at a minimum and sometimes often above or far beyond that. Dietary fats, monounsaturated omega-3s are great, but even some saturated fats in your diet are great and certain fats actually support what we call the inflammatory resolution process. That helps with training adaptation. I know it sounds weird, but you get an inflammatory response from training. Having adequate fats helps you get over the hump of that inflammation and come back to adapt back to a lower inflammation state. I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the show, but it's kind of an interesting mechanic that goes on. So the solution isn't like a high-fat diet or a keto, it's just a balanced approach. I like roughly 30% of calories from fat as a starting point and then you can go a little bit up or down depending on your preference.

Philip Pape: 41:25

All right, so we are going to wrap up with three final questions about mindset. So question 28,. What podcasts do you enjoy? All right, why is this under mindset? Because to me, the mind is also its own metaphorical muscle that needs to be flexed and grown, and I think learning and education is a massive part of that. So thank you for the question. So there are some I'll say longer fitness podcasts like Stronger by Science, iron Culture, revive, stronger, that I enjoy.

Philip Pape: 41:56

I listen to a few new news podcasts here and there, like the journal. I listened to economic podcasts like planet money and freakonomics. I've got some friends in the industry, like Jeff Hain, whose podcasts I follow. I like fun educational podcasts like how, um, what's it called? Oh, stuff, you should know that's what it's called. Let's see some other strength podcasts like starting strength, if you can take Mark Ripito's humor and political views. Barbell Logics podcast, which is called Beast Over Burden. I like Business Wars. I like Buzzcast. As a podcaster, conan O'Brien Needs a Friend is hilarious If you guys like Conan and his brand of humor. And then a few other business podcasts like creator, science and honestly, that is just the tip of the iceberg. I have a ton of podcasts in my queue.

Philip Pape: 42:45

I don't listen to every episode of every show. I am very selective, based on the content, the title. I do listen, sometimes at like 1.25 speed. I don't want to go faster than that or else I'll miss it. I like to listen while I walk, while I lift, and I get a lot of inspiration that way. The common thread to me is people who are kind of changing the mold, using mental models, developing frameworks, developing systems, evidence-based thinking. You know, if somebody gets too off the wall with the claims, I tend to unfollow them. But if there's a good story, if there's a great topic, if there's some really extensive research that's been done, I'm all over that, all right.

Philip Pape: 43:21

Question number 29. What is the biggest training myth that refuses to die? I think my biggest offender here is still the idea that women will get bulky from lifting weights, when in reality most people women, men need to work incredibly hard just to gain modest muscle. Trust me, I know from personal experience and I am a man and my testosterone level is just fine and I eat a lot of carbs and I do my bulks and still it's a struggle to really put on lots of muscle mass, because it's a time-based process that you have to just put effort into and not worry about getting bulky. Most women will benefit a lot from maybe not a huge surplus, but a little bit of a calorie surplus to build muscle for about six to nine months and just try it. Do it for me and report back and tell me how great it feels to get strong, to increase your lifts consistently, to have enough energy, sleep, to have better stress mitigation all of the things in a way that you've never experienced before. And then you also fill out your clothes more aesthetically and then, when you lose some fat after that, you all of a sudden look lean in tone, like you wanted in the first place, and not bulky. So that is the biggest training myth that refuses to die that I wanted to answer. Today I've got about 50 more in my back pocket, all right.

Philip Pape: 44:38

And the last question is what is the biggest nutrition myth that refuses to die? And the one I have to go with here is that any food is good or bad and you have to cut out foods to get your results. So many diets still today carnivore, keto, even intermittent fasting, to a sense are depriving yourself unnecessarily, and I want to give the power back to people listening to know that their meal timing, their frequency all of that is super flexible and what you eat is super flexible. As long as you bring in and add in the macronutrients and micronutrients that support you and your body and how you feel and perform, it's going to naturally work itself out and result in the balance and theents that support you and your body and how you feel and perform, it's going to naturally work itself out and result in the balance and the foods that you need and want. Don't listen to the fear mongering about seed oils or plants being toxic, or carbs, or chemicals or additives or artificial sweeteners or any of that, because if you are consuming 80, 90% whole, nutritious foods, your body easily handles whatever else you throw in it. You have a natural detoxification system there. That's. Another thing is detoxes, don't get me started, and you don't have to overthink it. Just track your food, become aware, add in sufficient protein and fiber and nutrients and you'll be golden. People get hung up so much on these diets and restricting themselves that they beat their head on a wall for years and years and years. You don't have to do that. Just track your food and shift it toward the things that your body needs.

Philip Pape: 46:09

All right, I don't want to make this episode much longer than it has to be. I got through the 30 questions for you guys. I hope you enjoy them. I picked the ones that were kind of more general, that that more more most people would be interested in. And as we close out episode 300, I want to thank you all again for being part of this journey. You know, unlike the 300 Spartans who met a terrible end at Thermopylae sorry for the spoiler If you haven't seen the movie or read history um, our battle here against fitness misinformation will continue, for I want to say forever? I hope not, but we are in this together. I have your support. You have my support. We are allies. We're not immortals, but we are intelligently trained listeners and lifters and we're going to fight on for hundreds more episodes to come.

Philip Pape: 46:53

Whether this is your first episode you've ever heard or you've been doing this for a while, the principles are all the same Progressive overload, adequate recovery, sufficient energy and food, an energy of balance appropriate to your goals. It's the basics, it's the foundations. Sleep, stress those are the foundations. Tracking and measuring the right things for awareness. The specifics, the methods of how you implement them are going to evolve as you progress and they're highly dependent on you and figuring out what works for you. That's what we do in my coaching program, whether it's one-on-one or the Physique University. That is what we do. There is help you discover what works for you. But the fundamentals endure and I'll leave it at that.

Philip Pape: 47:31

So if you enjoyed today's epic 30 Q&A episode, which they're not all like this, a lot of them are shorter. They're not all like this. A lot of them are shorter. They're very focused topics, but I thought this would be fun. If you have your own question, submit it at witsandweightscom slash question. You will get a personal reply from me and I'm going to feature your question on an episode, either a Q&A or as its own topic. I'll let you know and I'll give you a special shout out if you want it. That's witsandweightscom slash question, or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that your fitness journey is a lifelong campaign where victory comes through consistency, not a single heroic moment. This is Sparta. I mean, this is Philip Pape, and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Your Macro Tracking App is Too "Dumb" for Real Fat Loss (or Muscle Gain) | Ep 299

Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

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Meticulously tracking your food but still not seeing results? You're not alone—and it's probably not your fault. 

Most calorie tracking and food logging apps are fundamentally flawed, using static formulas that never adjust to your body's changing metabolism. 

When you sign up for MyFitnessPal, Lose It, or Chronometer, they calculate your calorie needs once and never revisit them, despite the fact that your metabolism constantly adapts to what you eat, how much you weigh, your activity levels, sleep quality, and stress.

This episode exposes why traditional tracking apps fail to deliver sustainable results and introduces the missing element: the feedback loop between what you eat and how your body responds. They are "dumb" apps, not "smart" apps.

Your metabolism isn't a fixed furnace burning the same amount of fuel day after day—it's a dynamic system that becomes more efficient during calorie restriction and changes as you lose or gain weight.

So use the right tool for the job if you want to lose fat and gain muscle!

Main Takeaways:

• Traditional apps like MyFitnessPal, LoseIt, and Cronometer rely on static formulas that don't adapt to your body's changing metabolism

• Your metabolism constantly shifts due to weight changes, activity levels, stress, sleep, and metabolic adaptation

• Food tracking itself is valuable for awareness, but without a feedback loop that dynamically adjusts your targets, you'll eventually hit plateaus

• Dynamic TDEE calculation analyzes the relationship between your actual calorie intake and weight changes to provide personalized recommendations

• A "smart" tracking system becomes more accurate over time as it learns about your unique metabolism

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

• Watch my MacroFactor setup tutorial

Timestamps:

0:00 - Why most calorie tracking apps are failing you
3:05 - The problem with static TDEE calculations
6:18 - How your metabolism actually adapts over time
11:07 - Specific limitations of popular tracking apps
14:46 - Why you need dynamic "smart" TDEE calculation
21:14 - Implementing an effective tracking strategy
25:19 - How proper tracking changes your behavior
27:29 - Recap and recommendations

Why Your Food Tracking App Keeps Failing You

Have you ever tracked your food meticulously, staying under your calorie goals, only to see zero changes on the scale—or worse, see it move in the opposite direction? It's incredibly frustrating, demoralizing, and makes you wonder if your body is broken.

But guess what? It's probably not you; it's your calorie tracking app that's sabotaging your fat loss or muscle-building goals.

A Critical Flaw

The reason popular food tracking apps like MyFitnessPal, Lose It, and Cronometer aren't working for you boils down to one significant flaw: static calorie calculations. These apps rely on fixed formulas, usually based on the Mifflin-St Jeor equation, to determine your Total Daily Energy Expenditure (TDEE)—the calories your body burns daily.

The issue? Your metabolism isn't static—it's dynamic and adaptive. Here's what these apps typically overlook:

1. Metabolic Adaptation

Your metabolism changes as your calorie intake changes. Reduce your calories, and your body learns to burn fewer calories doing the same activities.

2. Body Weight Changes

As you lose weight, your body needs fewer calories to sustain itself, further decreasing your TDEE.

3. Daily Activity Fluctuations

Your daily activity can vary widely—one day you're hitting 10,000 steps, the next only 3,000. Your app doesn't automatically adapt.

4. Stress and Sleep

High stress and poor sleep quality significantly impact your metabolic rate, altering calorie expenditure.

5. Hormonal Cycles

For women, menstrual cycles can shift metabolism by up to 10%, a factor completely ignored by most static formulas.

Why Traditional Apps Just Aren't Smart Enough

When you sign up for an app, you input your age, weight, height, sex, and activity level. The app spits out a calorie goal and expects your complex biological system to fit neatly into this simplistic model. As a result, you're left hitting numbers that don't match your actual metabolic needs.

Even worse, apps like MyFitnessPal encourage eating back exercise calories, which are notoriously inaccurate and often lead to overeating.

What You Actually Need…

So, if static calculations are flawed, what's the alternative? The solution lies in dynamic tracking—a method that continuously adapts based on your real-time body data.

Think about it like a thermostat:

• A dumb thermostat keeps the temperature at a set point regardless of external factors.

• A smart thermostat adjusts based on current conditions, time of day, and user preferences.

Your tracking app needs the same "smart" technology—adjusting your calorie and macro targets based on your body's actual response.

The App We Recommend

At the moment, MacroFactor, created by the experts at Stronger by Science, is the only tracking app currently employing dynamic calculations. Here's how it differs:

• Real-Time Metabolism Tracking: MacroFactor continuously analyzes your calorie intake and weight changes, adjusting your calorie targets weekly.

• Adaptive Algorithms: It learns your body's response patterns over time, becoming more accurate the longer you use it.

• Eliminates Guesswork: Whether your metabolism speeds up or slows down, the app adapts, ensuring you're always at the right deficit or surplus.

Making Dynamic Tracking Work for You

To leverage dynamic tracking effectively:

• Consistent Logging: Track everything you eat daily, regardless of adherence.

• Daily Weigh-Ins: Track your weight daily to capture accurate trends and fluctuations.

• Avoid Manual Overrides: Trust the data-driven recommendations rather than adjusting based on perception.

• Give It Time: Expect meaningful adjustments after 3-4 weeks as the algorithm learns your body's specifics.

Empowering Your Fitness Journey

Tracking isn't obsessive—it's empowering. It provides awareness of your nutrition habits, shows you how your body responds, and equips you with the knowledge to make effective adjustments.

If you've been frustrated by lack of results, your current tracking app is likely the culprit. Switching to a dynamic, personalized approach with MacroFactor can eliminate the frustration and finally align your efforts with real, measurable results.

Remember, successful body composition change doesn't come from trying to fit into generic formulas—it comes from understanding and responding to your unique, dynamic metabolism.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been tracking your food religiously but your weight isn't budging, it's probably not your fault. Most calorie tracking apps use the same static formula, regardless of what's happening with your metabolism. They set a number once, or you have to set the number and never adjust it based on how your unique body responds. So today I'm exposing the critical flaw in nearly every popular food tracking app and showing you what actually works if you want sustainable fat loss or muscle gain, because, while tracking itself is valuable as a first step for awareness, most apps fail to close the loop, and once you understand this, you won't want to waste time with those apps ever again. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today is one of my favorite topics. We are looking at an often overlooked aspect of successful body composition change how most food tracking apps are sabotaging your progress by using static formulas that ignore your body's real-time metabolism. This is a really important topic because if you are stuck, if you are frustrated and you're tracking your food, there could be a very good reason why. Here's the scenario you are logging everything you eat, you're weighing your food. You're using my fitness power lose it or chronometer you never go over your calorie goal but the scale's not budging. Or you're trying to gain muscle, but you can't seem to either get past a hard gaining plateau or you end up eating too much and you gain excess fat, and this is frustrating. It's demotivating, it makes you feel like your body's broken. But today you're going to learn why this isn't your fault. I will explain why most and I mean most, as in every single one except one food logging apps are based on static, unhelpful formulas how your metabolism actually adapts to what you eat and why a dynamic approach that uses your real data in the right way is the only reliable method to maintain consistent progress.

Philip Pape: 2:15

Food tracking itself is incredibly valuable for awareness. It is step one for most people, but without a system that creates the feedback loop between your intake and your results, you are flying blind with the wrong targets. So if you're trying to lose those last five or 10 stubborn pounds, try to lose a lot more than that in terms of fat loss. You're trying to build muscle but not gain too much fat, or you're just trying to optimize your nutrition and figure out what the heck do I eat for my calories and macros understanding why your app's calorie recommendations may be way off are going to change how you think about this, and you're going to have the secret decoder ring by the time this episode is done, and I encourage you to listen through the entire episode, because I'm actually going to talk about specific apps that you're probably familiar with and I'm going to share the solution that will actually figure this out for you.

Philip Pape: 3:05

All right, so I want to start with a fundamental issue that affects virtually every mainstream food tracking app on the market right now. Until times change in the future, this is the case right now, and the problem is simple. Most apps use a static, one-time calculation of your total daily energy expenditure, or TDEE. In fact, some apps don't even calculate that for you. For those unfamiliar, tdee represents the total calories you burn in a day. It is your metabolism, and it includes all the components of your metabolism your basal metabolic rate, which is the energy needed to keep you alive, calories burned by digesting food, your daily activity, both formal and informal, and everything you do.

Philip Pape: 3:47

And when you first sign up for an app like MyFitnessPal, lose it Chronometer and yes, I am naming names so that you know why these apps cannot cut it for what you're trying to achieve. When you sign up, they ask you some questions your age, your height, your weight, your sex, your activity level, your weight loss goal things like that which most apps are going to ask. Some don't even ask that and then they plug the values into a formula it's typically the Mifflin-St Jor equation or something similar and then it spits out a calorie target and then this becomes your daily goal. The app then expects you to consistently lose weight if you stick to the goal. But the fatal flaw is that these estimates, these calculations, are the exact kind you can get when you plug your information into an online calculator. I even have one on my website, and they're based on the average of the population and wildly inaccurate self-assessments of activity level. And yeah, they're the best we can do as far as an average, but they could be way off from your real metabolism up to 400 calories in either direction, and that's assuming you even give it the most accurate information for you. For example, the activity level is highly subjective. What does that mean? And even worse, the targets just remain fixed unless you manually update the information, so the apps don't automatically adjust based on what's actually happening with your body and what your eating patterns are.

Philip Pape: 5:08

So think about this have you ever been diligently tracking your calories and trying to stay under certain targets? Let's say you're trying to lose weight, lose fat, and it just doesn't happen. You just stay there, stay there, stay. Maybe you start gaining weight and it just seems like a mystery and you think, okay, it's me, it's my metabolism, and the app keeps telling you you should be losing weight and you're hitting the targets and maybe maybe you missed the target by five calories or two grams of protein. And then it gives you a big red number and it shames you for it. Right. And then your reality tells a different story from what the app says it should be and this creates a disconnect that is really harmful. It is really harmful for lots of things for body image, for your psychological state.

Philip Pape: 5:49

Through this process, you get to the point where you think tracking is a terrible tool, or it's obsessive or it's not helpful. To be clear, tracking your food is still a valuable practice. Even if you just track stuff on a piece of paper old school, and saw how much and what you eat, it's going to create awareness of the amounts, how much protein problem areas. Are you getting enough fiber? All of that stuff and that gives you data to work with for sure. It is extremely important.

Philip Pape: 6:18

The issue is not with the tracking itself. It's how most apps fail to create the feedback loop between what you track and what actually happens with your body. And again, I made this episode and I'm hoping to be able to share this with anybody in the future who wonders about the apps or anybody who says, well, I use chronometer, so I'm good, it should work. Right? No, it's not gonna work. And to understand why? To understand why these static calculations fail, we have to appreciate how adaptive and responsive our metabolism truly is. Your metabolism is not this fixed furnace burning the same amount of fuel day after day. Right, it's a dynamic system and it's adjusting to many, many, many things.

Philip Pape: 7:02

It adjusts your calorie intake first and foremost. That is probably the biggest factor. People don't realize this. The amount you're eating and whether you are losing or gaining weight are the top two. So number one the amount you're eating. When you reduce calories, your body becomes more efficient. It's going to burn fewer calories to perform the same function. This is an adaptation that occurs because you are starving of resources. And the opposite happens when you eat a lot more, your body actually ramps up. That's the big one. The second factor is weight loss. As you lose weight you have less mass to maintain, so your calorie needs naturally decrease. So you've kind of got this double whammy Adaptation combined with being lighter on the scale, because, just simple math, 180-pound person's gonna burn more calories at rest than 160 pound person with otherwise identical stats, not even counting muscle mass here we're just talking short term.

Philip Pape: 7:48

Number three is your activity level. You know your activity varies every day, just unconsciously, in terms of your steps. Some days you might walk 12,000 steps, other days barely 3000. Some days you might do cardio, some days you lift. They go all over the place. Sometimes you're doing too much cardio and that causes a negative adaptation or you burn fewer calories. It's highly subjective to that. The number fourth factor and these are really two factors, but I like to combine them as stress and sleep Sleep deprivation, poor sleep, restless sleep and or high stress, chronic stress can absolutely alter your hormone balance and your metabolism and they change how efficiently your body uses energy.

Philip Pape: 8:27

And so when you don't get enough sleep, you burn fewer calories. When your cortisol is all over the place. Because of your stress, you burn fewer calories. And then the last factor here is for women their hormonal changes throughout the month because of the menstrual cycle can also affect your metabolic rate by as much as five to 10%. It's not nothing. And even if you don't account for that, you still have all these other factors that cause your metabolism to fluctuate. So these create a constantly shifting energy expenditure that a static formula can't capture. Even if it's accurate for you on one day, it can be off by 600 calories two months from now. That's how bad it is.

Philip Pape: 9:04

And the problem is the traditional apps do exactly that. They provide a fixed target based on this fixed assumption and they expect that your complex biological system is going to conform to their mathematical model in some magical way. Or they make it even worse by having you input your activity or connect to your wearable, and they count back the calories from activity, which makes it even worse. I'll just give you a real world example that I see all the time with clients. I see it with myself in a fat loss phase. When someone starts a fat loss phase, they might have a TDEE of 2,500 calories that's your maintenance calories but after you lose, say, 10 pounds over a couple months, the TDEE could have dropped to 2,200 calories. Could have dropped by 300 or 400 or 500 calories. I've seen big drops because of the reduced body mass and the metabolic adaptation. And so if your deficit was 500 calories because you wanted to lose a pound a week, well, now you're actually in a lower deficit. You're only in a 200 calorie deficit because you didn't change your calories, but your body's burning fewer calories and so your weight loss is going to slow. By what? 60%? And these apps never tell you this is happening. You just don't know.

Philip Pape: 10:13

It keeps recommending the same target or maybe says, hey, what do you want your targets to be, despite clear evidence that your body's adapted right, which the evidence is that you stop losing weight. But then it's frustrating because you're saying, well, the app says I should be so, now something's wrong. And so you get frustrated, even if you're perfectly adhering, and the same issue occurs in the opposite direction. I'm not going to pay too much attention to that here today. I want to focus more on fat loss. But same thing If your app tells you you've got to eat 3,000 calories for a lean bulking phase, but your TDEE is less, you're going to gain a lot faster or, on the flip side, if it's more, you're going to hard gain and so it's even more precise in muscle gain in terms of the data that you need about yourself, because it's a little bit more sensitive up there. So, without this feedback loop that connects your intake to your results, you are just navigating with a broken compass. That is it.

Philip Pape: 11:07

So let's look at the actual most popular tracking apps that are on the market today and how their flawed methodology impacts your results, because I have to be honest, I don't like them. I think they are harmful. Not only do I think they're not helpful, I think they are harmful If your goal is to use the data to then accurately change your behaviors to get the goal you want. If your goal is strictly to log your food for awareness and that's it fine, they're adequate. But for any more than that which, if you're listening to the show, your goal is to improve your body composition these apps will not do them, period. And I want to be crystal clear I don't care about the cost, I don't care about the features, none of that. They just don't do it.

Philip Pape: 11:46

Let's start with the big one MyFitnessPal. Myfitnesspal it has a huge food database. Of course, a lot of it's inaccurate because they're user entered, but let's put that aside. The calorie calculations are problematic because the app asks you for your information when you set up and it never revisits it. It just doesn't consider how your metabolism changes, like we talked about, and then it separates exercise calories from your baseline metabolism, which is even worse, in my opinion. When you log a workout, it adds those calories to your daily budget, which encourages you to eat them back. This is dangerous. This is unhelpful and harmful, physically and psychologically, right? Number one, because exercise calorie estimates are just completely wrong. They're inaccurate. They're often off by 30 to 50%. Number two it doesn't account for how your body compensates for exercise, which is gonna happen and also the hunger that ramps up. And then it treats exercise as completely separate from your energy expenditure, rather than just one of many components of it. Remember, your metabolism is complex. It's comprised of lots of things. Activity is just one tiny thing and, by the way, exercise comprises maybe 5% of your metabolism. So that's MyFitnessPal.

Philip Pape: 12:55

Then we get to Lose it, which is similar to MyFitnessPal. It uses a static TDEE calculation based on your user-reported activity level. It tells you go ahead and select a weight loss rate and then it gives you a fixed target to supposedly achieve the rate, but it doesn't adjust it. If you're eating exactly what it recommends but you're losing weight slower than expected, the app doesn't say oh, this might not be a big enough deficit for, or it might not be low enough calories for you. It just doesn't recognize that. That's a discrepancy. It's dumb Effectively, in my title the word dumb here means lacks intelligence, lacks smarts to do anything helpful. And then you're left wondering why you're not hitting your targets, despite even perfect compliance. And then we have chronometer. Everybody loves chronometer because it has this awesome micronutrient tracking. Fine, it still relies on static formulas like Mifflin, st Jor. You manually set your activity level. The app does not adjust your calorie targets based on real time weight changes or intake real-time weight changes or intake and so even when you update your weight, it just recalculates using the same formula rather than analyzing the relationship between intake and changes in weight.

Philip Pape: 14:01

We have a couple other apps out there that people like to mention. One is FatSecret, the other is HealthifyMe, and same limitations one-time calculations, they don't adapt, they require manual updates, they don't incorporate feedback loops from real world data, and so the pattern across these is clear. I mean, that's the extent of the details I want to get into, because this is not a feature comparison episode. This is calling out the one thing missing from every single app on the market, except one we're going to get to in a second. They rely on a theoretical calorie need rather than your body, so they're good for awareness of what you're eating, but they don't close the loop, so it's good for a few weeks and after that, useless, in my opinion, again, other than just awareness of what you're eating, and that is the key difference between failure and success.

Philip Pape: 14:46

So we've established that you don't just need a static calculation. What do you need instead? Well, you need a dynamic calculation, an approach that refines your energy expender estimate based on what's happening with your body. So think of that as the difference between dumb and smart technology. A dumb thermostat stays at the temperature you set it right, and that's how thermostats were for decades. A smart thermostat will learn your preference, they'll adapt to changing conditions. They might even have a schedule, and they'll adjust to the current temperature, time of day and so on to maintain optimal comfort. Traditional tracking apps are like dumb thermostats they set a target and they never adapt. What we need is a smart tracking app that closes the feedback loop between the intake and the results, between the intake and the results.

Philip Pape: 15:34

So what would that look like? Well, first, it would analyze the relationship between what you eat that's, your calorie intake and how your weight changes. Think about it your body is like a closed loop energy system. You take an energy in the form of food, you expend it in the form of lots of things movement, digestion, training and, as a result of what you do and just how you are, your body burns a certain amount of calories, and that causes your weight to either go up or down, based on how much energy you need to store, based on the net difference of energy. That's it. That's the first thing. The second thing it should do is create an algorithm based on your response. So not only should it take the data and estimate your expenditure, it should also look at it over time and take your history to even better estimate your expenditure. The third thing it should do is then give you targets based on that data. Sounds simple, right? Here's your calories and macros. The calories are what you need to be in the deficit. You want to lose the fat that you want at the rate you want. That's what's missing from the other apps. And then it should also become more accurate the longer you use it, as it collects data Like, for example, as you're gaining muscle, as you're gaining weight to build muscle, it can tell the ratio of muscle to fat based on how fast you're gaining, and then it can adjust for that.

Philip Pape: 16:48

So what app does this? If you follow this show for any length of time, you know what app it is. It's called Macrofactor, all in word, created by the guys at Stronger by Science. I'm a firm believer in this app because the only tool it's kind of like a barbell it is the best tool and the only tool for the job out there to do this as effectively as possible. The only alternative would be to do it on your own in a spreadsheet, which, if you want to, if you nerd out on it, if you can come up with a decent algorithm, go for it. I would rather take years and years of the smartest guys in evidence-based training, nutrition and science, who have analyzed both the physiological side as well as the statistical and algorithmic side, and put it into an app.

Philip Pape: 17:27

So, macro factor, all one word. And here's how it works. It doesn't just ask you to pick an activity level and enter your data. You do that initially. It gives you initial estimate, like every other app, but then the magic starts, because it looks at what happens when you eat a certain amount of food over time to your weight. How does your weight respond to your food? And so it is kind of like having an old style macro coach right, the old old nutrition coaches that calculated macros for you and I've talked about this before in negative terms, in that we don't need them anymore. You've got apps and you've got AI and everything else that can do that for you. That's easy. What you need a coach for is the human part, the psychological part, the supporting accountability. We're not going to get into that. I talked about that recently in a bonus episode.

Philip Pape: 18:12

But macro factor is like an old school macro coach who's just looking at how your weight changes and saying, okay, you're, you're starting to plateau. That means your deficit is smaller than we thought and therefore you're not burning as many calories, so we're going to give you lower calories. That's it. It adjusts up and down as your expenditure changes. So a concrete example of how this works in practice let's say, you begin tracking at what you believe is a 500 calorie a day deficit to lose a pound a week and after two weeks the app set notices that you've only lost a half a pound. Now again, this is over time based on averages. It's not going to do this very quickly, day to day and over respond. It's going to look at your trends over two, three, four weeks but it's saying okay, you're really only losing half a pound over the past few weeks, should be losing a pound, and a traditional app like MyFitnessPal would have no clue, just keep giving you the same deficit until you change it. But Macrofactor will recognize that your TDEE is actually lower than it thought and now it will adjust your intake to reach your fat loss desired rate of loss. And then it's going to update the calories and macros when you quote, unquote, check in with the app. So you check in weekly, usually on a Monday.

Philip Pape: 19:22

That's the default and the formula now no longer matters. The estimate, the initial estimate, no longer matters. What matters is you, your body, and the beauty of this approach is it works regardless of whether your metabolism is faster or slower, whether you've eaten more or less, whether you're hitting the targets or not, it's going to work. And if you are someone who naturally burns way more calories, it's going to detect this, and vice versa If your metabolism is slower, it's going to adjust downward accordingly. And so if you've been stuck trying to lose weight for years and years, or maybe you're peri-post-menopause, maybe you're an older dude who's just been stuck trying all the diets, this could be what you're missing Just an understanding of your metabolism, an approach that adapts as you are trying to change your body, because those things are cyclical.

Philip Pape: 20:05

As you change, your metabolism changes, but then you need to change again in terms of your eating habits, and so the app detects these changes and then adjust your targets. It seems simple, but I'm surprised that no other app does this, and it works in fat loss, maintenance or muscle gain. In fact, macrofactor has some pretty sophisticated algorithms for muscle gain. If you're trying to gain weight, it's going to give you a target, but then, if you go faster or slower than it expects, it doesn't just adjust the target blindly. It actually estimates a ratio of muscle and fat to determine how fast you need to go to gain at the rate you want to gain. It's pretty cool. So that's really all I have to say about dynamic calculation. I mean, it's again. It sounds simple Take what you eat and how your weight changes and calculate the number.

Philip Pape: 20:48

If you try to do this yourself, it's actually pretty sophisticated, because what if you're going from a bulk to a cut? What if you're sick or injured and your metabolism changes drastically? What if you have a period, your period and your cycle changes? There's a lot of reasons our expenditure can change. The app is not going to overcorrect. If you try to do this on your own, you're going to find out that there's all these little scenarios that are kind of difficult to deal with and you're going to have to update your algorithm, and so it gets more and more sophisticated.

Philip Pape: 21:14

So if you want an effective tracking strategy and this is not just tracking, this is tracking and the right targets, first you've got to select the right tool for the job. If you want to get super strong, you're probably going to select a barbell or at least some effective machines. So in this case, you want an app that uses a dynamic calculation period. Right now on the market, macrofactor is the only app that does this, and its algorithm is amazing, and they talk about it openly and transparently and they're constantly improving it. So it's going to improve every week. It's going to adjust your metabolism and give you the right targets.

Philip Pape: 21:46

Number two you've got to be consistent with your logging. So this isn't all just the app doing the job right. You don't just start using the app and, oh, I lose weight. No, of course you have to have accurate data. You want to log what you eat every day, whether you go over your target or not. So I have clients who, early on, they'll say, oh, I didn't track for a week because I got sick. And my response is well, assuming the tracking itself isn't stressful and it only takes like two minutes a day to track when you get used to it especially macro factor Cause it's so fast Keep tracking Even when you're sick again, if it doesn't make it worse. But again, for most people it's an easy, quick thing. And what's nice about tracking no matter what happens whether you're over or under your targets, not eating doesn't matter is it will have precision and accuracy to show you what happens to your body in those times. I actually want you to track in the times that are off plan. So quote, unquote, so we can see what happens to your expenditure in those times. You could adjust accordingly and you get honest data to create that feedback loop so that you have confidence on how much to eat, what to eat and when.

Philip Pape: 22:49

You also have to weigh yourself consistently. So I've talked before about how weighing every day is associated with success and maintaining your results. It is not associated with obsessiveness, because when you weigh every day, you can see the natural fluctuations caused by things that have nothing to do with fat. Weigh every day, you can see the natural fluctuations caused by things that have nothing to do with fat, and then you have to take a trend of that over time. So, like macro factor uses a 20 day exponential moving average, you don't have to understand what that means, but if you think of the 20 days, that's about three weeks. That means fat gain, fat loss, is really only estimated with any precision after about three weeks of data. The next thing is you have to understand that there are lots of things other than fat that will cause your weight to change. So, again tying into the comment I just made about daily weight tracking, we have water retention, sodium intake, carbohydrate levels, hormonal cycles, inflammation from training. Again, what matters is the trend over weeks.

Philip Pape: 23:44

The next thing is you don't want to manually override the calculations. So this is another problem I see is that some people will say, well, it says the expenditure is lower than I like, or I don't think my expenditure is that low and you're like tempted to manually change it. Well, once you've been using the app for I'll say, three or four weeks maybe as little as two, but usually three or four weeks of daily food tracking where you log everything you can't do partial days or it'll think you ate less and daily weighing it's going to have a pretty darn accurate assessment of your expenditure and if it's lower than you like, that's a reality you have to face. But that's a great thing because it's empowering data and it could explain why you've been stuck trying to lose weight or fat all these years, and then you could decide what to do about it. You also have to give these things time. I've mentioned this a couple of times.

Philip Pape: 24:30

Dynamic calculation is going to become more accurate the longer you use it. So the first few weeks you almost can't trust anything because you don't have enough precision, but by, say, four to six weeks, the algorithm is highly personalized and then, of course, course, you would use this as a learning tool. That is really my last comment on this is it's not just hitting targets which, by the way, macro factor doesn't judge you on whether you're over or under, it doesn't color code things, it's completely adherence neutral. It's very nice, it's very good for the psychological aspect, but beyond just hitting targets, you can pay attention to how different foods affect your hunger, your energy, your performance and, yes, your expenditure, and tie it all together right. The goal isn't just to comply to numbers. The goal is really to understand your body's unique response to what you do, what you eat, and then adjust accordingly.

Philip Pape: 25:19

And that's why, as a coach, I really love that my clients use it, because we get far more precise and insightful data than a traditional macro meal plan coach would ever have. And then I can go to that next level of being a detective and helping you understand why the data is doing what it's doing. And that eliminates guesswork. It eliminates the frustration from using MyFitnessPal, tracking your food and not knowing why you're not getting the result. Instead of wondering and being constantly frustrated, you're going to have a system that reflects your body's reality and creates a continuous feedback loop, and that's how we make progress in life, in fitness, in nutrition, everything the cool thing about tracking in general so just to throw a bone to any of these apps where you've decided to track your food and you weren't before is it will start to change your behavior, sometimes in ways you don't notice.

Philip Pape: 26:08

Research shows that people who track their food just track tend to move more throughout the day. They tend to make slightly better food choices, even when they're not consciously trying to. It's why I love having my clients track from day one, so that they start to change their own behavior. Listen, I have clients reach out to me in the first few weeks and they're like I just noticed this, so I changed this. I just noticed I didn't have no protein, so I did this. I'm not even telling them to do this stuff Right, and that's great, because a lot of this is on you, and I don't mean that in a bad way.

Philip Pape: 26:35

I mean you've got the power. It's you've. You take the action. But it really helps to have someone looking over your shoulder to understand why the data is doing what it's doing, so you can take the right actions. And then you take this to the next level not just track your food, but track your expenditure so that you can measure your actual response to food while you're tracking. It's really a profound shift in thinking. It's from trying to conform to what you think is how many calories you're burning, based on a formula, to actually observing and working with what your metabolism is doing. And if you went back 10 years before Macrofactor existed, the way someone would tell you to do this is to manually track your food and manually track your weight and kind of guess and eyeball how your weight is changing to your food. But it's very rough, it's very imprecise, and so that's why I recommend Macrofactor, which then gives you not a dumb tracking app but a smart system that closes the loop.

Philip Pape: 27:29

So anyway, we've covered a lot of ground today and just to bring it all together, the traditional apps my fitness pal lose it chronometer. They have static metabolism formulas that remain fixed regardless of how your body responds. So don't tell me when I suggest using macro factor. Oh no, I don't need to do that, I already use chronometer, it's free, Like, okay, well, you're, you're tracking food and that's it. You're not going to get the result you want without knowing what's actually happening in your body Period. They ignore metabolic adaptation, they fail to account for how your weight changes. They fail to account for energy changes and exercise changes and all of that. They're dumb in a world where you need smart. So even if you've been following your app's recommendations but you're not seeing the results, it's not because you are doing something wrong. It's because you have the wrong targets. So if you want to experience a difference and this is what the only little sales pitch I'm going to make here is to go ahead and try macro factor for free for two weeks. Link is in the show notes. Use my code wits and weights all one word.

Philip Pape: 28:25

I personally have used the app since the day it came out. All my clients, everyone in Physique University, use the app. It is highly empowering. It's going to change your life. It is a paid app and yet what you get for it is worth multiples upon multiples of the cost. I think it's still $71.99 for a year. Now, that's in US dollars. But try it for free using the code witsandweights all one word. Link is in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 28:48

I also have a step-by-step YouTube video that shows you how to set it up properly to find your true maintenance calories the first time. So I'm going to include links to both in the show notes. Grab the app, try it out. You've got two weeks to try it out. If you don't like it, no risk, don't use it and watch my video on setting it up and you're going to be good, you're going to be awesome. Then you're going to be reaching out saying, okay, cool, now I see what you were talking about.

Philip Pape: 29:11

Now I understand my true targets. Now I need to put this into the next level, combining it with my training, with my meal timing, making sure it works for me, with my biofeedback and my energy, and really get the fat loss that I'm going for. But step one is to start tracking your food and weight using Macrofactor. Use my code, wits and Weights, Get the link in the show notes and watch the video. All right, until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights and remember successful body composition change, fat loss, muscle gain, whatever it is, comes from understanding how your unique metabolism is changing, not trying to conform to a generic, static, unchanging formula. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Does Cycle Syncing Your Workouts & Nutrition Actually Work? (Jillian Greaves) | Ep 298

Download my new Strength Training for Hormone Health guide to optimize hormones, boost your metabolism, and maintain muscle mass for life.

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Does your menstrual cycle impact how you should train and eat? Or is "cycle syncing" another wellness trend designed to sell programs?

Dietitian Jillian Greaves and I cut through the cycle syncing hype - what works, what's just marketing hype, and how to support your body throughout your cycle. We break down the science behind hormonal fluctuations and discuss carbs, fasting, birth control, practical training adjustments, and one-size-fits-all protocols. No fluff, just facts.

Jillian is a functional medicine dietitian and women’s health expert specializing in hormonal health, PCOS, and cycle-based nutrition. With a Master’s in Public Health from Tufts University, she has helped thousands of women optimize their health through personalized nutrition and lifestyle changes.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:28 - Why cycle syncing can backfire when taken too far
04:15 - The 4 phases of the menstrual cycle and how hormones fluctuate
07:04 - Why some women feel stronger during their period
13:21 - The impact of carbs on female metabolism and stress resilience
19:13 - The problem with chronic low-carb diets for women
24:20 - Why the luteal phase may require more recovery
30:32 - How to adjust your training and nutrition based on real biofeedback
41:25 - The truth about birth control and why it’s overprescribed
47:02 - Rapid-fire Q & A
52:01 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: jilliangreaves.com 

• Instagram: @jilliangreavesrd 
  

Does Cycle Syncing Work?

The idea of cycle syncing—adjusting your workouts and nutrition based on the phases of your menstrual cycle—has gained popularity in the fitness world. Some claim it’s the key to unlocking better performance, faster recovery, and balanced hormones, while others dismiss it as a trendy marketing gimmick. So, what does the science actually say?

If you’ve ever wondered whether cycle syncing is worth the effort or just another way to overcomplicate your training and nutrition, keep reading.

The Science of Cycle Syncing

At its core, cycle syncing is about making supportive adjustments to training and diet based on hormonal fluctuations. Women’s physiology does change throughout the menstrual cycle, and being aware of these shifts can help optimize performance and recovery.

However, the way cycle syncing is often presented on social media has turned it into an overly rigid system, with recommendations that can get absurdly detailed—like eating specific types of nuts or lettuce on certain days of your cycle. There’s no scientific evidence supporting these ultra-specific food prescriptions. The reality is that small tweaks can be helpful, but cycle syncing shouldn’t be seen as a strict rulebook that dictates every meal or workout.

How Your Hormones Fluctuate Throughout the Menstrual Cycle

To understand cycle syncing, let’s break down the four phases of the menstrual cycle and how they impact energy levels, recovery, and nutrition needs.

Menstrual Phase (Days 1-5, Approx.)

• Hormone levels (estrogen and progesterone) are at their lowest.

• Immunity is higher, inflammation is lower, and recovery is generally good.

• Strength and force production may be slightly higher, meaning it could be a good time to push harder in training—if energy levels allow.

• Some women feel great during this phase, while others may need more rest.

Follicular Phase (Days 6-14, Approx.)

• Estrogen starts rising, leading to increased energy and improved muscle recovery.

• Insulin sensitivity is higher, making it easier for the body to use glucose.

• Strength training and high-intensity workouts may feel more effective.

• Carbohydrate intake can be increased, especially around workouts, to optimize performance.

Ovulatory Phase (Around Day 14-16)

• Estrogen peaks, followed by a sharp increase in luteinizing hormone, triggering ovulation.

• This can be a period of peak energy and performance for many women.

• Some women experience increased joint laxity, so paying attention to form and recovery is key.

Luteal Phase (Days 15-28, Approx.)

• Estrogen and progesterone are at their highest, leading to increased inflammation and lower stress resilience.

• Progesterone has a catabolic effect, meaning muscle breakdown may be slightly higher.

• Blood sugar regulation shifts, making some women feel more fatigued or experience cravings.

• Energy expenditure increases slightly (2-10%), meaning the body may require more calories.

• Many women feel less motivated to train intensely, making it a good time for lower-impact strength work, steady-state cardio, or mobility work.

Practical Takeaways for Strength Training and Nutrition

If cycle syncing has any real value, it’s in teaching women to listen to their bodies rather than blindly following an inflexible program. Here’s how to make practical adjustments based on your cycle:

• Training Adjustments:

  • Use the follicular and ovulatory phases to push heavier training and higher-intensity work.

  • In the luteal phase, prioritize recovery, technique, and moderate loads rather than forcing PRs.

  • If you feel great during your period, take advantage of it! If not, listen to your body and adjust.

• Nutrition Adjustments:

  • Ensure adequate protein and carb intake throughout your cycle to support performance and recovery.

  • Consider increasing carb intake during the follicular phase when insulin sensitivity is higher.

  • Slightly increase total calorie intake in the luteal phase if hunger rises, focusing on protein and healthy fats for satiety.

  • Avoid extreme low-carb diets, which can disrupt hormonal balance and stress the body unnecessarily.

Common Myths About Cycle Syncing

1. You must completely change your workout plan based on your cycle

   • Reality: While small tweaks can be helpful, your program should be built around long-term progressive overload, not week-to-week changes.

2. You need to eat specific foods at specific times in your cycle

   • Reality: There’s no evidence that eating certain foods on particular days balances hormones. What matters is overall diet quality.

3. Luteal-phase training is ineffective

   • Reality: While you may not feel as strong, you can still train effectively. Adjust intensity if needed, but don’t stop lifting altogether.

4. Fast-tracking fat loss or muscle gain requires cycle syncing

   • Reality: The fundamentals of fat loss (caloric balance) and muscle gain (progressive overload + sufficient nutrition) are far more important than cycle timing.

Final Thoughts

Cycle syncing can be a useful framework for understanding how your body responds throughout the month, but it shouldn’t dictate every decision. The most important thing is to get the fundamentals right—eating enough, training consistently, sleeping well, and managing stress. Once those are in place, you can fine-tune based on personal experience.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

The fitness industry wants you to believe, you need to completely overhaul your training and nutrition based on where you are in your menstrual cycle. But what if this trendy approach is actually working against your goals? Today, I've invited on expert dietician Jillian Greaves to reveal what the science really says about hormones and exercise. Learn why rigid cycle-based protocols often backfire, discover the actual signs your body needs adjustments and get practical tips to optimize your training based on your cycle, without unnecessary restrictions. Welcome to wits and weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:48

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm discussing cycle syncing with Jillian Greaves. Now, jillian is a functional medicine, dietitian and women's health specialist. She's helped thousands of women address their hormonal health through personalized nutrition and lifestyle interventions. She earned her master's in public health from Tufts University and has extensive clinical experience at institutions like the USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging. Today, you're going to learn why many standard cycle-based protocols often don't work, what your symptoms actually reveal about your body's needs and how to personalize your approach. That's what we're all about personalizing your approach while respecting your unique physiology.

Philip Pape: 1:28

Jillian, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me Excited to be here, and this is an exciting topic because there's a lot of misinformation about it and I know we're going to clear that up today and people are going to be super crystal clear on what to do People as in women, but you know what Men listening to this or coaches. It's really good information to understand, because hormones in general are kind of a muddy topic. So the question I have for you, just to right out of the gate does it work? Does cycle syncing syncing your training and or nutrition to the menstrual cycle work, or is it marketing to sell programs?

Stephanie: 2:04

It is both.

Jillian Greaves: 2:04

In my opinion, like all things, there's always so much nuance right, and the way that I define cycle syncing in a general sense is ultimately making supportive adjustments to your nutrition, your lifestyle, throughout your cycle to kind of support fluctuating hormones. As females, particularly women of reproductive age, our physiology does change as hormones fluctuate throughout the cycle and there are definitely shifts that we can make and things that we can be aware of, to better support and adapt to these changes. On the other end of the spectrum, when we're talking about, you know, is it real, isn't it real? You know, social media has, you know, kind of blown up in terms of talking about a lot of different things, but with cycle syncing in particular, I've seen so much talk about it in recent years and I think this is where things get a little bit murky or muddy.

Jillian Greaves: 3:01

Where on, you know, in the online health space, cycle syncing has essentially turned into like this rigid diet or this plan that you know women are trying to follow to a T, and I think an even bigger problem I'm seeing is that women are getting so zoomed in on like micro strategies with food, with adjusting their training, that we kind of miss the forest for the trees, and I see people on social media recommending you switch up the type of lettuce or the type of nuts that you're eating based on the day of your cycle that you're on, and ultimately, we really just miss the mark when it comes to actually supporting the things that can make a difference with our training and with how we're feeling.

Jillian Greaves: 3:47

And while the body does mobilize nutrients differently across the phases of the menstrual cycle, we have no data supporting that these ultra-specific microfood interventions and eating this type of lettuce on day 19 and this type of lettuce on day 25 is going to balance your hormones. It's just again we miss the forest for the trees and that's really not what cycle syncing is at the end of the day.

Philip Pape: 4:12

Cool, that's a great answer. And this obsession with these micro strategies, or the 1%, I call them as well, it's a general thing, right? Because I guess the logic that I would apply is men or women, when you are in any one particular state, like a given week of your life, can you, at that level of detail, optimize perfectly for these things? Or is it highly personal and it's really going to take a lot of experimentation and understanding? You know? You know, I mean, we're kind of leading where we're going here.

Philip Pape: 4:38

But so then try to now break it up into what Nikki Sims, who was just on the show from Barbell Logic. She calls her four personas of the month. Right, like, she's like four different people for the month, yep, and now trying to do it for four different people every month for yourself, it's even going to exacerbate the error. Let's call it yes. So you mentioned supportive adjustments and that physiology does change. So let's dig into the science or the reality of basic hormone physiology, maybe in general, and then also throughout the menstrual cycle, because some people are just confused in general about this stuff. But let's break it down. We can talk about the phases, you can talk about how things change in reality.

Jillian Greaves: 5:15

Yeah. So let's break down kind of the four phases of the menstrual cycle and then we can kind of get into talking about actually what's shifting, what's happening and what we can proactively do to support the body. So in terms of the four phases of the menstrual cycle, we have our menstruation phase, which is technically our leading phase, where we're on our period, and this is a period of time where overall hormone levels are at their lowest, at their very lowest throughout the cycle. From there we enter the follicular phase and this is a period of time where estrogen levels are on the rise. So the body is essentially maturing follicles and the secretion of estrogen is increasing throughout the follicular phase. We then enter the ovulatory phase. That's where estrogen kind of hits a peak and this is part of what's going to stimulate ovulation or the release of an egg.

Jillian Greaves: 6:14

Moving on from the ovulatory phase, we then enter the luteal phase. So this is a period of time in the menstrual cycle where both estrogen and the hormone progesterone are kind of at their highest, so the overall hormone load in the body is higher at this time. The luteal phase is typically about a two-week stretch of time and the luteal phase will either end in your period or pregnancy. Those are the only two options. And then we enter the menstruation phase or that bleeding phase again and kind of start that cycle over when it comes to kind of specifically like what's shifting with our physiology, what's happening as these hormones are ebbing and flowing throughout the cycle. So, starting with the menstruation phase or that phase of time where overall hormone levels are at their lowest menstruation phase or that phase of time where overall hormone levels are at their lowest this is actually a period of time where our immunity is a little bit higher, inflammation is a bit lower and recovery is actually generally pretty good. Endorphins are higher at this period of time and studies have actually found that strength and force production is higher. Vo2 max is increased. So, like, how much? You know how much and how well your you know your body is using oxygen during exercise. So women across the board actually do experience, or can experience, more strength gains in their menstrual phase, which might be a little counterintuitive based on some of the information online, but ultimately that lower hormone load leads to increased resilience in the body. So if someone is feeling really good, that can be a time to challenge yourself from a workout performance perspective.

Jillian Greaves: 8:04

That being said, a lot of women aren't feeling their best, you know, during their period, in that menstrual bleeding phase, in which case, you know, we always want to respond to that, listen to that and lean into more rest, if that's what the body is asking for, with then entering the follicular phase again. This is where estrogen is increasing. Estrogen is on the rise and this is a period of time I will say generally and I know we'll talk a little bit more about symptomatic periods and different things going on but the follicular phase is generally a period of time where women feel pretty good, energy is higher and we kind of experience or feel more vitality throughout the follicular phase, and research does suggest that strength adaptation, muscle recovery, is better. Inflammation continues to be lower during this time in our cycle. So the follicular phase is usually a good time to challenge yourself, to focus on higher intensity exercise, strength gains and things that are maybe pushing the body a little bit more, when our resilience and our recovery is higher.

Jillian Greaves: 9:17

Something interesting to note about this rise in estrogen is that this does have some systemic kind of impacts on the body. One notable one is that our cells are actually more sensitive to insulin in the follicular phase, meaning we are better at utilizing glucose energy from food but, interestingly, carb storage and access to carbohydrates in our muscle and our liver is a little bit more difficult. You know, what does all of that mean? Essentially, we may want to amp up our carbohydrate intake, particularly around training. In the follicular phase, our body's going to be really great at utilizing that you know energy. However, it's not quite as efficient at tapping into energy stored in our muscles or in our liver. So overall, I think on a foundational level in the follicular phase, I really emphasize, with women focusing on the foundations and a really balanced diet, consistent eating overall, but then really considering possibly amping up our carbohydrate intake to make sure that we have a lot of energy readily available, particularly if we are amping up our training at this time.

Philip Pape: 10:36

Okay, this is great. I know we didn't get to the other two phases yet in the great detail you just went to, but I'm glad we stopped there because this is exciting to understand that you can leverage. You know how you feel during these phases or how your body responds, knowing that that is maybe unique to you, but also a thing that's going to happen periodically. And that's kind of getting to the questions about how do we then look at our training on an individual basis, not on a general basis, right, because you said some women feel terrible during the menstruation period, and I was actually thinking I was going to ask you a little side question about particular conditions, like endometriosis is a big one that affects a lot of women. I think it's like 25% now. It's a huge number, including some people I know personally, and that definitely affects all of this. Where does that come in, or do we keep that for like a separate discussion?

Jillian Greaves: 11:25

Yeah, I mean we can chat about that now and I think there, cause there's so many directions you could go here and I think I'm talking about all right, you know, in a general sense, when these fluctuations are happening, how are they impacting the body? How can we support those things on a foundational level? When I think about endometriosis, I think about there being issues with estrogen and how we're breaking down and metabolizing estrogen. I think about the immune component in terms of that pro-inflammatory state that's often, you know, kind of goes hand in hand with endometriosis, the gut imbalances that play a role here. So we want to consider those factors, you know, 100% and for someone you know, say, with endometriosis, that's having, you know, issues with estrogen in terms of maybe they're overproducing estrogen, maybe they're metabolizing their estrogen in a way that's creating certain estrogen metabolites that are more, you know, inflammatory or more proliferative. They may not be experiencing these shifts exactly how I'm describing them, and maybe they don't feel great. During that follicular phase, as you know, estrogen is increasing. In that case I, you know, I always say, first and foremost, listen to your body, listen to your body. The worst thing that we can do is ignore how our body's communicating with us. So if the body's asking for more rest or asking you to peel back on, you know the intensity of movement. So important to respond to that In a general sense.

Jillian Greaves: 12:46

For you know someone with endometriosis and say, those issues with estrogen and you know, maybe gut imbalances or the immune kind of pro-inflammatory elements. We may also want to and this is where we can get a little bit more zoomed in but first and foremost always need to focus on those foundations, make sure, like you know, blood sugar is balanced, we're eating enough. All those core foundations are dialed in From there. Maybe we do focus on some micro strategies with food and we're bringing in, you know, foods that help support, you know, healthy estrogen metabolism and clearance. For example, you know we know cruciferous vegetables that are rich in sulforaphane can help with how we're processing estrogens and also have really great anti-inflammatory benefits. So you know, maybe we're kind of focusing on incorporating more of those cruciferous vegetables throughout.

Jillian Greaves: 13:37

You know the follicular phase leading up to that estrogen peak. Maybe we're really amping up and diversifying our fiber intake. Fiber plays a really important role in, you know one supporting, you know, gut health, the gut ecosystem, our intestinal lining, regulation of the immune system, but it's also something that helps with, you know, binding and eliminating excess estrogens if we need support with that estrogen clearance. So there's things that we can do that get a little bit more zoomed in, um, you know, and and can really be beneficial, depending on you know kind of the case. And that's where I think it's like, you know, let's focus on those foundations and then pay attention to what our body is communicating with us throughout the cycle.

Philip Pape: 14:21

Yeah, for sure. Uh, and there's a lot of things in there that would trigger people, and they're the exact type of things that I mentioned that trigger people. But like, what's wrong with fiber and micronutrients? Right, like eating a huge, diverse variety of fruits and vegetables, but you know there's the carnivore camp and some other camps that kind of have a little bit of misinformation on that. And so that leads me back to the follicular phase.

Philip Pape: 14:41

When you talked about muscle recovery adaptation, you also said the insulin sensitivity goes up, but glucose uptake doesn't necessarily follow. But that only means that you can't tap as quickly into your naturally stored glycogen, which I recommend. Most people lifting weights don't train fasted anyway and like, have at least a huge carb-based meal at night, which generally disrupts sleep, or, better yet, eat before you work out in the morning, which is some carbs. It doesn't. It can be a banana or you know, depending. What are your thoughts on that, on carbs in general, on some of the messaging around carbs, on some of this stuff about like, well, women over 40 need to eat low carb and it's a whole thing. So let's clear that up. I know that could be its own episode.

Jillian Greaves: 15:28

I know, oh my gosh, could it be? Yeah, you know I.

Jillian Greaves: 15:29

I will honestly say that low carb diets are like the bane of my existence in terms of my, my work in in the women's health space and, I would say, most all clients we work with. We are working to bring more carbohydrates, more quality carbohydrates, in into their diet. And I think what people often don't understand is that low-carb diets, particularly like these ultra-low-carb diets that we see women on, where there's not even a target there, it's like let's just eat as little carbohydrates as possible. This is a stressor on the body. It's incredibly stressful and if we are experiencing blood sugar crashes, blood sugar dips, in relation to not eating enough carbohydrates, if we're not eating enough carbohydrates to actually support recovery and muscle protein synthesis and all of these things, it's really working against us at the end of the day. And something I always say really working against us at the end of the day and something I always say which is like I understand I know is like a very oversimplified, you know message, but I think it hits home with people is that carbs calm cortisol. So if we are not eating enough carbohydrates, you know we can actually experience dysregulation with cortisol.

Jillian Greaves: 16:39

One of our you know primary stress hormones, which is a you know one of its biggest jobs is to keep blood sugar regulated and to make sure that we have adequate energy for the body to use to sustain day-to-day activities and functioning. So for a lot of women that we work with, I think that hits home in terms of eating enough food in general, but particularly making sure we're getting enough carbohydrates can really help to support the body's stress resilience, to help, you know, with balancing the nervous system, supporting metabolic health, and we can actually, like, reap the benefits of our workouts versus having it be, you know, having workouts be in the context of, you know, poor stress resilience, blood sugar wonkiness, and we're kind of again throwing gasoline on the fire or working against ourselves at the end of the day, yeah, you said so many critical things there, as well as some of the unsung benefits of carbs that I think are really important.

Philip Pape: 17:35

I just want to reemphasize three that you mentioned. So people really get that message by saying it's a stressor on the body. I love that, because now you could get the thought that you're dieting while not dieting. That's kind of the phrase I've used. Right, like, when you're low carb, even if your calories are quote unquote sufficient, you're still lacking significant resources for certain things that you care about when you're trying to lift weights, improve your body composition, even just move in general, and then you probably stack on top of that chronic forms of cardio that further exacerbate the issue. So that is huge. You mentioned muscle protein synthesis. You just kind of snuck it in there and people are like what does she mean? Isn't that what protein's for? Right, but it's a. What do we call it? Anti-catabolic? I assume you're talking about the anti-catabolic effects of carbs. Are there any other aspects related to muscle synthesis you want to highlight there?

Jillian Greaves: 18:20

I think, ultimately, I think the big ones being carbs and protein together. Protein gets a lot of attention, but really the that we work with the foundation is often so shaky we need to start there first. So, overall, let's make sure we're eating consistent meals, blood sugars regulated, with meals that contain adequate carbs, adequate protein, so the you know kind of time period, specifically post-workout, post-training, where we can kind of optimize that muscle protein synthesis, the building and repair of lean muscle, and that's where we can kind of bring in carbs and protein in a more targeted way to kind of support that process and optimize recovery and kind of what we're, you know, usually looking to achieve with workouts.

Philip Pape: 19:23

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned the foundational stuff you know usually looking to achieve with workouts. Yeah, it's funny, you mentioned the foundational stuff. I think of some of the questions that I just automatically ask clients in their onboarding it's like do you train fasted? You know like, do you train? Let me know, be honest right now, let's nip that in the bud. Yeah, not that people can't, I'm just saying that's just one example. So then, and then a couple other things you mentioned.

Philip Pape: 19:39

One was cortisol, which again gets a lot of. There's a lot of mystery around it. I did have someone recently on the on the show where we talked about kind of similar to you. You know all the myths around it, how cortisol is really just a lagging indicator of what's going on with your stress system. And there's all these things upstream that can affect not only the production of cortisol but the timing and the cycling of your cortisol. And you're right when people I mean anecdotally, like you probably have worked with hundreds thousands of clients you see, adding in those carbs like generally nothing but wonderful results within days or weeks it's like, oh my gosh, what was I missing all these years?

Philip Pape: 20:13

Oh my gosh, I feel better. Oh my gosh, I can do this and that. Or I'm starting to lose fat or whatever. It's crazy. And the only time I'd ever recommend low carbs is when you are in a calorie deficit and it tends to follow the calories right, like I'm in a fat loss phase now. So my carbs are only 150 and not 400, you know what I mean, but they're not like 30, you know.

Jillian Greaves: 20:32

Right, and and you, you know, I think, carefully selected the word phase, right, you know where it's like an intentional phase where we're making adjustments with, you know, caloric intake, with carbohydrate intake, and I think what we see is, you know, women that have been trying to, you know, cut carbs and eat low calorie for a decade, right? So, um, yeah, I think that's a you know keyword that you use in terms of phase and the intentionality behind that.

Philip Pape: 21:02

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No listeners, listeners anybody who's listened to the show for a while know how much I love cutting bulking phases, stair step, like really making it work for you. And then the other thing you mentioned at some point you mentioned it was blood sugar and insulin. You kind of alluded to it. One of the fears is blood sugar spikes. I talked to someone who had a CGM you know continuous glucose monitor for listeners and she said she stopped eating potatoes because her blood sugar was spiking. I'm like we got to get some education here, right?

Philip Pape: 21:28

It's like blood sugar spikes are normal. They're going to happen. They're especially going to happen when you're only eating carbs. But there's lots of things to mitigate them with. You mentioned balanced meals. I think you mentioned balanced meals, yeah, and also lifting weights mitigates it, Walking mitigates it. But let's just touch on that real quick again, because people are afraid about insulin sensitivity. You know, pre-diabetes metabolic disease, getting fat from carbs, like that blood sugar piece of it.

Jillian Greaves: 21:52

Yeah, and you know, understandably so, with all the, you know, kind of misinformation out there. But you know, ultimately we need carbs to support and regulate our blood sugar. But we always have to think about the context. So you know to your point carbs are supposed to be easily digested, they are supposed to make our blood sugar rise. We recommend eating a potato alone as your meal. No, right, because that's going to produce a bigger, more rapid spike in blood sugar and insulin. That's where we want to think about food pairings and combinations. So we always want to ideally make sure that we're, especially at meals, incorporating carbohydrates alongside adequate protein, alongside fiber, alongside healthy fats, all of which are going to help to slow down the digestion of glucose and to kind of elongate the blood sugar curve after we eat, to prevent big spikes and crashes or kind of riding that blood sugar roller coaster. But again, it's important for, I think, people to know that if you know our body isn't getting, you know, energy, carbohydrates from food, it's going to find it elsewhere. And that's where, again, we you know for experiencing, say, you know, blood sugar crashes or lows because we're, you know, prolonging our overnight fast way too long, or you know we're skipping meals. We're eating low carb, our overnight fast, way too long. We're skipping meals. We're eating low carb.

Jillian Greaves: 23:20

What happens is the body's going to sense that low energy availability and it's going to start pumping out cortisol, which is by definition a glucocorticoid, meaning again, one of its primary jobs is to help regulate blood sugar. So cortisol is going to tap into carbohydrate stores in our liver and our muscles and kind of dump that into the bloodstream to normalize things. At the same time it's also going to tell our cells to become more insulin, more resistant to insulin. So you know it will kind of impede or impair our ability to kind of utilize, you know, carbohydrates efficiently. So it kind of backfires at the end of the day when we're just sort of like arbitrarily kind of cutting carbs, going low carb.

Jillian Greaves: 24:05

So ultimately we want to experience a rise in blood sugar after eating. We just want that to be more stable. We want slow, rolling hills throughout the day versus, like, the big peaks and valleys. And that's where I think there's just so much misinformation and lack of education out there. And I think you know we really strive to do with the women we work with is to get them feeling confident with how to actually like. Utilize carbohydrates to enhance how your body is functioning and to enhance how you're feeling, and to support that you know healthy blood sugar regulation.

Philip Pape: 24:37

Yeah, yeah, it's like these hormones are agnostic, right. Hormones aren't out to get you and something like insulin is extremely beneficial tool for us, especially when we're active and lifting. It's the resistance and it's the counteracting that with the lifestyle choices like cutting carbs that tend to make the difference. All right, I know we got off a very valuable tangent, but let's getting back to the cycle syncing. You mentioned a few things in the research about in general. Everything's a normal curve right For the population in the menstruation cycle and follicular. That could be potentially the higher recovery, higher performance part of the half of the month. Does that mean the other half in relative terms might feel like a drain to a lot of women or is it more of a baseline?

Jillian Greaves: 25:20

Yeah, great question.

Jillian Greaves: 25:21

So I would say, entering the luteal phase, that kind of like final or fourth phase of the menstrual cycle, is where some more significant changes occur that can and should impact how women feel. I don't want to make it seem like, you know, we're robots and nothing is happening internally and we should feel like you know, exactly the same every day throughout our cycle. Experiencing subtle shifts is normal, and when I say subtle shifts I'm talking, you know, some subtle shifts with energy, maybe some subtle shifts with mood or stress resilience, but these things should be subtle and not wildly disruptive. We shouldn't be experiencing extreme anxiety in our luteal phase. Digestive symptoms, exhaustion, crazy mood swings these are all indications that likely the body needs deeper support and there are some bigger, more significant imbalances at play that might need to be addressed. But I would say again, in a general sense, going into the luteal phase, that second half of the cycle, so that's where you know progesterone and estrogen are, you know, going to be higher. This combination or I kind of refer to it as, like you know, the one-two punch of having both of these hormones being higher does decrease our stress resilience, so our body is less resilient to stress.

Jillian Greaves: 26:43

Our immune system is actually altered and the body is in a more pro-inflammatory state throughout the luteal phase and essentially the increase in progesterone. In particular, it increases our sympathetic drive, so the body having more of an affinity for kind of that fight or flight mode. Progesterone also increases the breakdown of muscle, so it's essentially catabolic and that's to prioritize the uterus over skeletal muscle. During the luteal phase our core body temperature increases, or there's more issues with thermoregulation or ability to maintain body temperature. Blood sugar is also impacted where we are a little bit less sensitive to insulin on a cellular level. Our breathing rates are impacted, so there are more significant changes. A couple other things to note would be sodium absorption is decreased. Our energy expenditure at rest actually also increases a little bit anywhere from like 2% to 10%, so not crazy. From anywhere from like 2% to 10%, so not crazy. But we actually may need more energy, more calories, during this phase of our cycle.

Jillian Greaves: 28:05

So I would say, in general, the luteal phase is a time where the body overall is just a bit less resilient. Does that mean you can't do any type of movement? No, absolutely not. But in general I tend to consider the luteal phase as a period of time where women can benefit from more steady state cardio, from low impact, strength training, mobility work and focusing on recovery if we were pushing it a little bit harder, say in the follicular phase. So I think it's just important to acknowledge those physiological shifts and we'll work with many women, as an example, that are going to Orange Theory and trying to hit PRs three to five days a week and they're doing that every single week throughout their cycle, despite maybe not feeling so great in the luteal phase. And you know they might notice um going, you know, engaging in those higher intensity workouts during the luteal phase, you know their sleep is disrupted, their energy is crashing, their digestion is off, um. So which would all be signs that, hey, you know, maybe the context right now, um isn't the time for the ultra high intensity workouts and maybe we need to peel, peel back a little bit. So definitely some some shifts happening in the luteal phase that I would say are more significant. One thing to note too is that the body, actually there's increased fat, fat utilization in the luteal phase, based on what's happening hormonally. To kind of bring all of this together from like a recommendation, you know, action based standpoint, the luteal phase, to kind of bring all of this together from like a recommendation, you know, action-based standpoint, the luteal phase.

Jillian Greaves: 29:39

Generally we may need to eat a little bit more. So, you know, always eat to hunger, make sure we're responding to hunger and not kind of, you know, trying to white knuckle it and then overeating. At the end of the day, if our body is hungry, let's respond to that. We may benefit from increasing protein and fat intake a little bit. So, again, fat utilization is a little bit higher because progesterone is catabolic. We may want to incorporate more protein to support that, to support lean muscle.

Jillian Greaves: 30:10

And from a carbohydrate perspective, we absolutely are still going to want to incorporate carbohydrates consistently, but we may put a little bit of less of an emphasis on carbohydrates during this timeframe than we did, say, in the follicular phase, where we want to make sure we have that readily available glucose to fuel our workout.

Jillian Greaves: 30:29

So we still want to support consistent carb intake, but we may be focusing more so on protein and on fats, which I think, naturally too, a lot of women kind of gravitate towards in terms of like, we're a little bit hungrier, cravings are a little bit higher and protein and fats are really these deeply satiating foods and really help with that blood sugar regulation. This might also be a period of time where we kind of, if we're taking more of a micro focus on things, we may really amp up our anti-inflammatory intake. So we're in more of that you know, kind of pro-inflammatory state Again, you know recovery isn't as great. So that might be a way that we can really support our body with increasing, you know, anti-inflammatories and that might mean, you know, incorporating more of our you know bright, colorful fruits and veggies. Are, you know, herbs and spices, are you know beets are cruciferous veggies, are fatty fish and things that are, you know, kind of flooding the body with more you know kind of compounds that are helping to kind of counteract or combat that pro-inflammatory state.

Philip Pape: 31:32

Yeah, this is great. There's a lot, lots of unpack as they in there. One thing that stands out to me is tying back to listening to your body earlier, the idea of your hunger signals. Once you get the foundations which I know you've said multiple times it's like having the foundation of good balance lots of fruits and vegetables, micronutrients, just a good baseline. I suspect your hunger signals are better in line.

Philip Pape: 31:57

And if you're not constantly dieting, constantly cutting carbs, constantly doing massive chronic cardio, then that puts you in a position where, if your body has a little more hunger in one phase versus another, you can follow it, and I can attest to that anecdotally. I've definitely worked with women who I always like to start people with very, very simple protocols because we don't know yet, and then you find they tend to eat more calories at this point, and then they're perfectly fine over here and like oh okay, there's a pattern and you're a woman, so I suspect what it might be. Let's make sure we're tracking that along with your period. I'm a big tracking and data nerd. So which leads to my next question, jillian, which is are there measures that would help enhance your understanding of this, like HRV, because you mentioned the resilience level and the parasympathetic gap shortens and things like that.

Jillian Greaves: 32:43

Yeah, love that. So absolutely, for people that have an aura ring or a whoop or something that can give you a little bit of feedback about what's going on in your body, you will likely notice, even if you're not super symptomatic, things will likely notice, even if you know you're not super symptomatic, things are really balanced, dialed in with your nutrition lifestyle. You will notice that your HRV is likely lower in the luteal phase. You'll notice that your you know body temperature is elevated. You know if there's, if your tracking device is kind of looking at I know like the Oura Ring specifically, can kind of track you know pockets of you know rest and recovery versus you know pockets that you're in a more stressed out state.

Jillian Greaves: 33:27

You may notice there being some significant shifts going from the follicular phase to the luteal phase and maybe not having changed anything or having any external factors that are driving that and that's kind of based on these internal physiological shifts that we're describing and that's normal, that's normal.

Jillian Greaves: 33:47

And so, again, I think it's listening to how your body's communicating with you and I think you know giving yourself permission in those situations to rest a little bit more to you know really focus on, you know nourishment and you know not trying to, um, do the same thing every day, all all month long? Um, because you know the benefits of, you know any type of exercise, but particularly if we're talking about challenging ourselves. You know the benefits of you know any type of exercise, but particularly if we're talking about challenging ourselves. You know the HIIT workouts and things like that. You know context is king at the end of the day. So you know stress from exercise is healthy and adaptive and can improve our resilience in the right context. In the wrong context, that's where we're, you know, may end up creating more symptoms for ourselves or, you know, kind of creating barriers with the goals that we're working towards.

Philip Pape: 34:36

So context is everything, Don't force it. Listen to your body and people get frustrated with those responses the it depends response. But it really does come down to that. No, I don't.

Stephanie: 34:47

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment. It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. Do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Philip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape: 35:33

So, but speaking of that, I know there are other extremes of this. Where and this is where maybe the diet culture and the marketing side of this goes haywire is when I hear listen to your body. That can have such a spectrum of interpretation, one being, uh, an excuse not to train hard, for example. And by training hard, like, again, my audience is a lot of you know. We talk about strength training, lifting. Um, we don't really classify it as like heavy versus intense or anything. It's just progressive overload, getting stronger, building muscle, whatever makes sense for you. But what? I would be remiss if somebody hears the message and says okay, well, I'm just a little bit down in this part of my cycle, so I'm going to completely change my programming and I'm not going to lift heavy weights or whatever it is that my program states. What are your thoughts on that?

Jillian Greaves: 36:16

Yeah, I think it's there. There's definitely a balance there and, you know, I think this can also kind of loop back to you know, assessing the context in terms of you know what's going on in terms of why might I be feeling this way? You know, how did I sleep last night? What are my stress levels? You know, like, how's my? You know how are my nervous system outlets? Am I, you know, fueling really well? You know, whenever your body's kind of giving you some signals of any sort, whether it be, you know, low energy disrupted sleep digestion is off, mood is off, you know, aim to pause. Energy disrupted sleep digestion is off, mood is off, you know, aim to pause, take a step back and kind of assess what's going on here and what does my body actually need If we identify that, you know, yeah, I'm in my luteal phase but, like I've been fueling well, my stress is low, I'm sleeping really good. You know, maybe I actually do just need to get out there and move my body and that's what's going to help, you know, kind of shift things and help me to feel better. And I'll pay attention to how I feel during that workout and in the hours after, I think, that being an important piece of things that can often give us some helpful information.

Jillian Greaves: 37:24

I don't know if you agree with this, totally open to your thoughts, but I do find, particularly with talking about, say, like luteal phase shifts, paying attention to, you know, energy, in particular, like you know, during, immediately after and in the hours after, can be helpful. If we're feeling good while, you know, while we're working out, we're feeling good afterwards and our, you know, energy is good and consistent beyond that great, you know that's, you know, awesome, that's probably a sign that things are well balanced. If we're doing that workout and 2-3 hours later we're crashing and we feel like we need to take a nap and we can't focus and there are symptoms popping up there, that's where I'd say we need to make adjustments. What I don't want cycle syncing to come across as is that, like you know, women are, you know, weak and can't work out for, you know, half of the month.

Jillian Greaves: 38:17

That is the opposite of what I'm. You know what I'm saying. You know, women are, you know, strong AF, and it's so important to not kind of let this external information tell you that like, oh, I can't do something at a certain time. First and foremost, listen to your body, you know. If you're feeling good, you know, give it a try, focus on all those foundations. But I think if it's hard with the, you know again like, say, the motivation piece or the making excuses, because, as always, there's like so much.

Philip Pape: 38:48

Yeah, no, I feel you and and for sure you, you you're not coming across at all as portraying women that way at all and I always, you know, could get into hot water when I, when I talk about women in general, just you know, especially in modern society. But uh, I know women that I've coached tend to be like super, like, extremely committed and dedicated and seem to recover almost and take more volume than some men in terms of like attacking the hard thing that they need to do. Again, these are just generalizations because there's plenty of men that are, you know, but I like that. You said that basically there is a fine balance, and you asked if I agree with what you're saying. I totally agree.

Philip Pape: 39:26

I think there's fatigue and recovery issues that we have to be almost more cognizant of than necessarily the stimulus side of our workout. We almost need to just pick a baseline to try for our training. Whether that's a volume or intensity-based approach, you don't know how you're going to respond until you've trained right Like beginners, just don't know. So it's always best to start really simple and don't put a lot of movements in there, Don't put a ton of volume and try to constantly be getting your heart rate up. Just keep it simple right. Keep a lot of recovery, a lot of space in there, and then you can say okay, my back's feeling good, you know I'm sleeping fine, I'm able to go in and progress a little bit.

Philip Pape: 40:04

The excuse part in my head comes from the small subset of folks who will say, like in my head comes from the small subset of folks who will say, like it's just hard, and now, because I have this other thing going on, I'm not going to do it. And again, it's not a women thing, it's a men thing too, trust me. So I don't know where I'm going with all that, jillian, but I think people think about these things, so so do I. Totally All right. So we touched on cycle syncing from the research a bit. Is there anything else, I guess, in the research that you think is particularly notable or that we've discovered, especially lately, as this topic's been learned more about? I know women's health has been like a black box for so long and we're starting to finally do research around this. Is there anything else people should know about it?

Jillian Greaves: 40:45

Yeah, I think we kind of covered the big rocks with, you know, cycle syncing or you know kind of what's happening with these shifts throughout our menstrual cycle and kind of some foundational shifts that we can make. I think one thing I'd mention, which I think you've covered on the podcast, is just for women in particular of reproductive age and maybe kind of reconsidering the prolonged fasting or the fasted workouts really at any time in their cycle. That's kind of one additional side note that I would mention.

Philip Pape: 41:23

Cool. No, it's a good one. You mean not doing it at all? Yes, I agree, I always put this tiny caveat of like, well small subset of people may find that they thrive on it, but that's more of my like, cya, because somebody out there is going to say that it works great for them, they don't have any issues, blah, blah, blah and. But in reality, don't do it. It's kind of like the advice where you can you build muscle on low carbs. Ah, there's some people that do it, but why do it? You just have the carbs flooding in your system. It'll make it a lot easier. Um, what about?

Philip Pape: 41:54

Okay, so birth control, irregular cycles? I don't know, those are two separate things. But especially birth control is a super hot topic and I know your thoughts on it, cause I've seen your social media and I know a lot of women's thoughts on it as well as my own. Uh, I don't like it. I don't like birth control because of the, because of a lot of things, especially the pressure on young women to do it like get it over the counter. It's like it's treated like candy, almost compared to bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, which is somehow evil, and yet that's super helpful for a lot of women, so take it away.

Jillian Greaves: 42:25

Yeah, I love, love this topic so much and, yeah, definitely something I'm very passionate about and was honestly like a part of my own health journey a decade ago. But ultimately, I always like to preface conversations like this by mentioning I'm never anti-medication. Medication can be a helpful tool and I always support clients' autonomy to make decisions that feel really great for them. There, the big issue that I have, the two big issues I have with birth control in particular, are one, the lack of informed consent in terms of women really not being given all the information they need to actually make educated, empowered decisions around birth control, and the other big issue that I have is, ultimately, birth control being used to treat every women's health symptom and ailment under the sun.

Philip Pape: 43:18

You know if you have an irregular From a very young age, from a very young age, from a very young age. It's horrifying.

Jillian Greaves: 43:23

You know if you have an absence.

Philip Pape: 43:24

I have two daughters, just so you know, because that's why it kind of pisses me off.

Jillian Greaves: 43:27

Oh my gosh, yeah, and so great that you have this. You know knowledge, though, because I think you know so often, um, you know we, we, we trust our doctors and you know if they're recommending birth control, that you know we're gonna. You know, especially for for parents, you know they're trying to do, do the best they can for, you know, their, their young daughters, um, but ultimately it's birth control is really overused and abused and I think in in my practice, I'm seeing a lot of the implications of that. Ultimately, where you know, I think it's something like over 50 of birth control you know is used for non-pregnancy prevention reasons. I wouldn't even be surprised if the statistic is higher than that I can believe that right.

Jillian Greaves: 44:08

So it's like you know, if you don't have a period um, if your period's irregular, if your period's heavy, if it's painful, if you have acne, if you have you know mood swings, if you have endometriosis if you have.

Jillian Greaves: 44:19

PBLI, the first line of intervention is birth control, and the reason that's so frustrating is because you know hormonal birth control, particularly, you know the oral contraceptive, the combined oral contraceptive, which is most commonly used. It's essentially, you know, disrupting communication between the brain and the ovaries. It is shutting down the reproductive system or kind of shutting your own hormones off. So, although this may provide, say, some symptom relief, it's a big fat bandaid, you know, at the end of the day, and what's most bothersome is that you know people aren't asking the question why, why don't we have a regular period? There's a reason that you know our period and consistent ovulation is considered a fifth vital sign. Why are our periods extremely painful or heavy or symptomatic? These things don't happen for no reason, and that's a lot of the work that we do with clients in terms of let's dig a little bit deeper here and ask the question why and actually understand why these symptoms are happening, what imbalances are driving them and how can we really support the body back to balance. And it's really, yeah, really devastating for women who you know, for example, will work with clients that have, you know, were put on birth control because they're you know they didn't have a period, or it was really, you know, irregular when they were in middle school or high school, and you know, 15 years later, they're, you know, come off and they're ready to start their family and their period's still not there, right, and it's you know.

Jillian Greaves: 45:56

Or if they're put on birth control for managing or suppressing symptoms, they come off and those symptoms come back with vengeance and they feel, you know, like, oh my gosh, I'm at square one. What do I do here? And then, when they seek out support from their healthcare provider, often it's like birth control or bust. So that's the issue I have is that women aren't given all the information to make those informed decisions, to understand how is this birth control actually working in my body, what are the pros and cons, the potential side effects that I should be aware of, and also, you know, just the lack of investigative work in terms of actually understanding why women are experiencing symptoms. And women deserve better. They deserve better and we can get to the bottom of these things and, you know, often eliminate these symptoms naturally, get the period back, get us ovulating regularly, naturally, but women aren't even given that opportunity, which is wildly frustrating.

Philip Pape: 46:51

Yeah, I mean it's. It's funny, the discussion around birth control almost never has to do with it being a prophylactic at this point which tells you something.

Philip Pape: 46:58

And then, um, you know again, you you call it the fifth vital sign, which is amazing because we we know like amenorrhea can be caused by lots of these lifestyle changes we already addressed, like the lower carbs, the lower calories, low energy availability is one right. You see that in physique competitors particularly and then some other sorts of issue that might be happening that you want to resolve first. So I'm glad that you work with women on those kinds of things and it sounds like you come to it from a natural, generally a natural position at first, but aren't precluding medications when needed, which is a great balanced approach to have, in my opinion. On a lighter note, but potentially it could get controversial, are you open to a few rapid fire questions here? Just like short answers are fine. I came up with four that I thought might be interesting. So the first one is what's the biggest false claim about synchro psyche, synchro cycle, synching?

Jillian Greaves: 47:45

Yeah that. I would say that cycle syncing is the solution to PCOS endometriosis and these actual endocrine metabolic conditions. That is it.

Philip Pape: 48:02

Download my free guide to fix PCOS with cycle syncing. All right, what's the most overrated hormone-supporting supplement?

Jillian Greaves: 48:09

Oh, I would say DIM.

Philip Pape: 48:14

Okay, tell us more. People don't know what that is.

Jillian Greaves: 48:16

DIM or diendylmethane is. I'm butchering that, but DIM is a really common compound found in hormone balancing supplements A lot of really popular, trendy ones and it's a compound that can actually influence the overall levels of estrogen and how we're breaking down and metabolizing estrogen, and I see a lot of women kind of taking it willy-nilly. I have hormonal acne, I have painful periods, and it's something that can be beneficial in the right context, but without lab data and an assessment, I see women sort of taking DIM willy-nilly and so, yeah, no, it's good to know.

Philip Pape: 49:03

I mean, I'm sure there's a whole list you could have come up with. That's just one. What's the worst advice you've seen, just in general, about hormones? I know it's kind of a general question, oh gosh.

Jillian Greaves: 49:15

So much bad advice. Yeah, the worst advice in general with hormones, I think, a specific one that doesn't come to mind in isolation. I would say just in general, the like very zoomed in, like micro strategy recommendations that I kind of mentioned this early on in relation to cycle syncing, but I think it stems from the, the influence influencer of, like you know, steal, my hormone balancing morning routine. I have, you know, my green powder and then, um, you know, my lemon water and this and that, and it's not that those things can't be, you know, beneficial or or helpful, but I would say, just all these like zoomed in recommendations that totally missed the forest for the trees. There's no personalization or customization. I think that's what kind of keeps women on on the symptom hamster wheel.

Philip Pape: 50:08

Ah, so, so great. I have another small. I have another podcast, experimental podcast, called Nutrition Science Daily, and almost every episode I try to have some sort of boogeyman trigger like that. You mentioned lemon water. I think I had an episode about lemons and it's like, like you said, could, could these be helpful? Beneficial for something? Yeah, oh, maybe for electrolytes? Yeah, but it's not going to solve all your problems and burn fat and fix your hormones.

Stephanie: 50:26

So that's, that's the key.

Philip Pape: 50:28

Um, all right, last one. This is going to be an interesting one. What are your thoughts on male coaches working with women?

Jillian Greaves: 50:33

Yeah, so you know, I, I'm all for it. If you know the the male coach is, um, you know, respectful of and takes female physiology into consideration. You know, I think in any situation, if you're a female coach or a male coach, it's important to, you know, have some level of understanding of female physiology, you know, depending on, like, where an individual is at in the life cycle and what's happening with hormones, you know, not even just speaking to, like, the menstrual cycle and the reproductive years. But I think it's important to have some education, you know, with female physiology and to take that into account and to not, you know, kind of treat, you know, male and female clients as exactly the same, because there's, you know, a lot of physiological differences there.

Philip Pape: 51:27

Yeah, for sure. No, I'm always curious about that because I can say that my women clients have been one of my best teachers about women's physiology. But at the same time, I do encourage any coach, like you said, men or women to be educated on a lot of these nuances and also be skeptical of what you're reading and where the source of the information is, because I love bringing you on the podcast here because we can discuss that it is a nuanced thing and that you shouldn't ever go overboard and that it's personal. So, with that said, what does the process look like if someone either wants to work with you or just in general, figure this stuff out, because it sounds complicated? If you're listening to the show, you're like man, she covered a lot of things and we're just scratching the surface. How can we take off that stress a little bit?

Jillian Greaves: 52:09

Yeah, and you know it. It at the end of the day it doesn't. It doesn't have to be complicated. I know it can can sound like that when we're, you know, hitting on all sorts of different topics, but you know, at the end of the day, I think, when you you have, you know, custom support and a clear plan and you're not trying to, like, you know, pick and choose and throw things at the wall and see what sticks, it all comes together then.

Jillian Greaves: 52:31

But in terms of you know, working with us, you can find out a little bit more about you know how me and my dietitians work with clients on my website, which is just JillianGreevescom. We work with people in a, with women specifically, in a six-month container. So you know, as you know, healing, achieving goals takes time, so we require a six-month container. So, as you know, healing, achieving goals takes time. So we require that six-month commitment and really support clients comprehensively, from lab testing, nutrition, lifestyle supplements, mind-body techniques and really kind of try to lay out a clear blueprint with that deep customization to remove the overwhelm and ideally, help women get to where they want to go.

Philip Pape: 53:09

Awesome and I definitely have an abundance mindset when it comes to when other coaches on my show I'm like. I want to recommend Jillian here because, just through our conversation and our back and forth, I highly respect what you do and where you come from and the approach you take. So if anybody is looking for exactly what Jillian provides, having a coach for any issues you have is going to accelerate things massively, and I don't say that just because I'm a coach for any issues you have is going to accelerate things massively. I don't say that just because I'm a coach. I believe it and that's why I became a coach. So, having said all that, go to JillianGreevescom. Jillian has been fantastic. I loved our conversation, getting into the weeds and some of these things. Ladies, men, don't cut carbs all the time. Stop training, fasted Support and listen to your body and you're going to thrive out there. So thank you so much, jillian, for coming on.

Jillian Greaves: 53:49

Awesome. Thank you for having me.

Strength vs. Hypertrophy (The 65% Threshold for Lifters Chasing PRs vs. Muscle Size) | Ep 297

Download a FREE set of 8 strength and physique-focused workout programs from Physique University for 3 vs. 4 days, novice vs. intermediate, a built in log, form videos, and exercise substitutions for all types of equipment (barbell, dumbbells, machines, bodyweight) at witsandweights.com/free

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Why does always chasing maximum STRENGTH seem to limit muscle development, while always focusing on building MUSCLE doesn't deliver the strength gains you want? 

This paradox frustrates countless lifters, but the answer lies in understanding the pathways and mechanisms behind strength and hypertrophy.

Learn the science-backed differences between training for maximal strength vs. optimal muscle growth, and how to program for both without compromising either goal.

Main Takeaways:

• The 65% threshold reveals why strength and hypertrophy training require different approaches

• For beginners, neural adaptations drive strength gains with minimal muscle growth

• Advanced lifters need strategic programming to optimize both strength and size

• Mechanical tension drives both adaptations but through different pathways

Timestamps:

0:01 - The strength-size paradox
3:04 - Strength vs. hypertrophy
9:12 - Why intensity differs between approaches
13:01 - Volume for muscle vs. strength
15:55 - Rest periods and exercise selection
17:48 - How to train for strength or hypertrophy
26:53 - Powerbuilding
31:39 - Common myths and misconceptions
37:29 - Training age and how it changes your approach

Strength vs. Hypertrophy and the 65% Rule for Lifters Who Want It All

If you've been lifting for a while, you've probably noticed a paradox. Training for maximum strength doesn’t always lead to the biggest muscles, while training for muscle growth doesn’t always maximize strength. Many lifters struggle with this balance, wondering if they should be lifting heavy to get stronger or using lighter weights with more reps to build muscle. The truth is, you don’t have to pick just one. Strength and size are connected, but they require different strategies to optimize. If you want to get stronger and look stronger, you need to understand how they work together and how to program both into your training.

Strength vs. Hypertrophy

Strength training is about increasing your ability to generate maximal force. Think powerlifters focusing on their one-rep max in the squat, bench, and deadlift. Hypertrophy training, on the other hand, is about increasing muscle size using mechanical tension, usually through moderate weights and rep ranges.

The key difference is in the way the body adapts. Early on, most strength gains come from neurological improvements, not muscle growth. Your nervous system gets better at recruiting muscle fibers and coordinating movement. This explains why beginners can gain strength quickly without seeing major changes in muscle size. As you get more advanced, though, further strength gains require more muscle mass. This is why elite powerlifters are often very muscular, even if their main goal isn’t aesthetics.

The 65% Rule

Research shows that to build strength, you need to train with at least 65% of your one-rep max. This is the intensity threshold needed to develop the nervous system adaptations necessary for strength. Hypertrophy, however, can occur with loads as low as 30% of your max, provided you train close to failure.

For strength, lifting heavy is essential. This means working in the 80 to 100% range of your max to maximize motor unit recruitment. If your focus is muscle growth, though, you have more flexibility. Hypertrophy can be achieved with lower loads as long as you push sets close to failure to ensure enough mechanical tension.

How Strength and Hypertrophy Training Differ

Strength training focuses on heavier loads, lower reps, and longer rest periods. The goal is to train the nervous system and develop efficient motor patterns. This means focusing on compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, presses, and rows with rep ranges in the one to six range, resting at least three to five minutes between heavy sets. Strength programs emphasize quality over quantity, meaning fewer total sets but a focus on executing each rep with maximum force.

Hypertrophy training emphasizes volume. The total amount of work done is a major driver of muscle growth, and this typically means more sets and a broader range of rep schemes, from six to 20 reps per set. Rest periods are often shorter, in the one to three-minute range, to maintain tension and metabolic stress. Exercises include a mix of compound and isolation movements, ensuring muscles are trained from multiple angles for balanced development.

How to Train for Both Strength and Size

Many lifters want to be both strong and muscular. The good news is that you can train for both, but it requires balancing intensity and volume. Powerbuilding is a popular approach that blends strength and hypertrophy. This method prioritizes heavy compound lifts at the beginning of a workout, followed by moderate to higher rep accessory work to build muscle.

A typical powerbuilding session might start with a heavy squat, bench, or deadlift in the three to five rep range. After that, additional compound movements and isolation exercises fill out the session with higher rep work. Over time, this allows you to get stronger while also building muscle.

The Biggest Myths About Strength and Hypertrophy

One common myth is that you need to lift extremely heavy weights to build muscle. In reality, research shows that moderate weights can be just as effective for muscle growth if taken close to failure. The key is mechanical tension, not just the weight on the bar.

Another misconception is that strength gains can happen indefinitely without muscle growth. While beginners can gain strength without significant increases in size, more advanced lifters must build more muscle to keep getting stronger.

The idea that soreness and getting a pump indicate an effective hypertrophy workout is also misleading. Soreness and pump can be satisfying, but they don’t directly correlate with muscle growth. Instead, focusing on progressive overload and ensuring each set challenges the muscle is what matters.

There’s also a belief that bodybuilders aren’t strong and powerlifters don’t care about muscle. In reality, elite bodybuilders are extremely strong, and competitive powerlifters have a lot of muscle mass. The differences come down to training emphasis and competition goals, not fundamental differences in adaptation.

Finally, one of the biggest mistakes lifters make is program hopping. Constantly switching between programs prevents real progress. Strength and size development take months, not weeks, so patience and consistency are key.

How to Structure Your Training Based on Experience Level

For beginners, the focus should be on getting stronger in the fundamental lifts. Training in the four to six rep range with compound movements builds both strength and muscle efficiently. Programs like Starting Strength or other strength-based novice programs are great for this phase.

For intermediates who have been training seriously for at least a year, a powerbuilding approach works well. This involves mixing strength and hypertrophy work within each session or across different training blocks. The key is balancing heavy low-rep work with higher rep muscle-building exercises.

For advanced lifters, specialization becomes more important. If you want to maximize strength, you may need to include dedicated hypertrophy blocks to build more muscle. If muscle growth is the goal, strategic strength phases can help you lift heavier weights, leading to more progressive overload in hypertrophy work.

Applying This to Your Training

If you want to put these principles into action, I’ve put together a complete set of workout programs from Wits & Weights Physique University. These programs include options for both strength and hypertrophy, with built-in tracking tools, exercise substitutions, and structured progressions.

Download your free copy here.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Whether you just got into lifting or you've been training consistently for years, you might be aware of a paradox that going after maximum numbers seems to limit the development of your physique and muscle, while focusing on just hypertrophy or muscle size development doesn't seem to deliver the ultimate strength numbers that you want. Well, research shows that, beyond the novice stage, strength and size gains follow fundamentally different pathways. Today, we're talking about the science-backed differences between training for maximal strength versus optimal muscle growth and how to program for both without compromising either. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm going to address one of the most misunderstood relationships in fitness the connection between strength and hypertrophy, the fancy word for muscle growth and I want to give a shout out to my lifting buddy, tony. You know who you are as well as my client, len, who have pushed me recently to cover this topic in depth and it's a good one, because I see this confusion constantly with clients in our online communities, where people ask should I lift heavy to get stronger, or should I use lighter weights or more reps to build muscle? Or they'll say I'm getting stronger but I'm not seeing much size increase or development of my physique. Or, conversely, you know I look bigger but my lifts aren't really going up that much. Look bigger but my lifts aren't really going up that much. And the separation between these two training goals you know it's not as black and white as many believe, like the old school. Well, strength is one to five reps and hypertrophy is eight to 12, and so on. There is significant overlap, but there are also significant differences in how you should approach each one, and understanding this relationship is critical to design an effective program, or at least choose a program so that you know it gives you the specific results you want. Now, if you want to put these principles into action immediately, I've definitely got something special for you today, because I'm giving away a complete set of my physique and strength-focused workout programs from Wits and Weights Physique University totally free, giving you the whole thing for the current month for all skill levels, all types of equipment. There are swaps, there's video links in there, there are instructions novice, intermediate, glutes and legs. There are a lot of different programs and they're the exact programs that our WWPU members can choose from, including a built-in log, exercise substitutions for home and travel, you name it. So just go to witsandweightscom, slash free or click the link in the show notes. If you go to our website, just look for Physique Focus Programs I think it's called but just click the link in the show notes to get a free copy of that today.

Philip Pape: 3:04

All right, so let's clear up the confusion between strength and hypertrophy training once and for all, making this the definitive episode on the topic. First, let's define what the heck we're talking about. Strength training primarily focuses on increasing your ability to generate maximal force. How much weight you can lift for low reps, ideally for one rep, the most you can lift for one rep, but in that range. So think about powerlifting powerlifting competitions, where athletes perform one rep at the heaviest possible weight for their deadlift, their squat and their bench press. And this is something I didn't understand for many, many years, and once I did and focused on it when I was a beginner, the gain started to take off and it opened up a whole world of learning and understanding about this. But then at some point you start to hit a wall and you're like why am I not getting stronger, or why am I not getting the physique I want? So hypertrophy training, on the other hand, in somewhat contrast to strength, emphasizes increasing muscle size using the ultimate principle, which is mechanical tension, and it's often by doing it through moderate I'll call it moderate weights. I don't like to say lightweights, it's just moderate weights. It's sub-maximal or far from your max for mid to higher tier rep ranges like 6 to 15, up to 20, even up to 30. That's what I'm saying is there's quite a wide range where this can be effective.

Philip Pape: 4:32

Now, the interesting part here is that if you look at the science, we see that these adaptations share a fundamental driver and that is mechanical tension, which I just mentioned in the context of hypertrophy. But the way your body responds to this tension is going to differ, based on load volume and other variables, and here's where the 65% threshold becomes important. I think this is really important. So listen up. Research consistently shows that to build maximal strength, you generally okay, generally, this is a combination of the research need to train with at least 65% of your one rep max. Okay, that is 65% of your max. This is an intensity threshold that ensures that you have sufficient neural right, your nervous system, neural recruitment and adaptation. But if you're just trying to build muscle and I say that in quotes we're going to get to the differences and the overlaps. You can potentially go as low as 30% of your one rep max. Provided that you are training close to failure, you're still leveraging the principle of mechanical tension either way.

Philip Pape: 5:42

So I want to explain why this happens through the lens of the research. So in the early stages of strength gains this is when you're a complete beginner or a novice or even a late novice most improvement comes from neurological adaptations, not muscle growth. Your central nervous system, your CNS, becomes more efficient at recruiting muscle fibers and synchronizing your motor units, and studies show that in novice lifters, increases in muscle size might explain as little as 2% of the variance in strength gains. That's pretty telling, right? That tells you that it's not. It doesn't have much to do with muscle at all, because nearly all strength improvement comes from better neural efficiency and technique, and this is why you can gain massive strength very quickly early on, because you don't need to grow new muscle tissue to get there. You're simply training your body to coordinate better effectively.

Philip Pape: 6:38

So you guys probably know Dr Eric Helms, one of the guys I follow. He's a natural bodybuilder, he's a researcher, always on the podcast circuit Stronger by science, mass, all that good stuff and he explains this phenomenon very clearly. He says when you first start training your body and coordinate the muscles and that's where beginners again can double their strength but have minimal visible muscle gain, and that can be it can be both exhilarating because your numbers are going up, and frustrating because your physique isn't quite changing yet. And then, as you become more advanced, the relationship shifts very dramatically. For experienced lifters, muscle mass then becomes critical for further strength gains. You've heard of you know, working on your weak spots, for example, and it potentially explains 65% or more of the variability in strength increases.

Philip Pape: 7:39

Okay, listen to what I just said. When you're more advanced, muscle mass becomes more relevant for strength. So, in other words, once you've optimized your nervous system and your lifting technique, getting stronger largely means building bigger muscles. And so the chicken and egg is always confusing here, because it's like which one supports the other. The answer is yes, and this explains why elite power lifters are also quite jacked. They're quite muscular, right, they have to be, even if aesthetics isn't their primary goal, and you might see the big guys who carried a lot of extra weight. They then cut down because their goals change. Maybe they even go into bodybuilding and I won't say it's easy for them because it's going to depend on their shape and their symmetry as well. But you see that fat fall off and they've got tons of muscle slabs and slabs of meat on their frame and so at advanced levels, more muscle becomes necessary to continue breaking strength plateaus Really really important, because I think people get stuck in the mindset of doing the same.

Philip Pape: 8:42

You know, three by five program forever, and they are leaving lots of potential gains on the same. You know, three by five program forever, and they are leaving lots of potential gains on the table, even for their strength. So now that we understand the relationship between strength and size, kind of at a high level I don't want to get too deep into the weeds here. There's so much evidence and research out there that you could explore I want to talk about how training variables differ between strength focused and hypertrophy focused programs, and again we're going to get to where these overlap and how you can incorporate a little of both.

Philip Pape: 9:12

But I want to start with intensity right, Probably the most important variable that I learned early on, especially when you're getting started. Intensity is not sweating or feel, intensity is just the load on the bar, it's how heavy you lift relative to your maximum in this context. All right. So for strength development, research is clear on this Lifting heavier weights is superior and that means working at 80 to 100% of your 1RM for your core compound lifts. The heavy weight forces maximal motor unit recruitment from the first rep. That's what's important here, and it trains your nervous system to handle near maximum lows.

Philip Pape: 9:54

And you can go down other rabbit holes and argue about intensity versus volume. I think both are extremely important. I think using intensity and then jacking that up with volume is a great approach. Or going a little bit less intense and making up for in volume, or a little bit more intense and a little bit less volume. It all works and in some cases you cycle through both within one training block Very common. I just increased all of my max lifts. Doing that, I had a base phase where I had lots of volume sub-maximal but then I switched to a peaking phase where I was in the 80 to 90% range with much less volume, to train my nervous system to get ready to hit those max singles, which eventually I did, and it actually felt pretty easy when you take the right approach. So that's strength.

Philip Pape: 10:44

Now for hypertrophy, the intensity range is much broader, which is kind of neat, because if you're really if you don't care, I'll say care about your max PRs and you just want to look better, you want to build muscle, you want to be generally fit and strong, but not strong in terms of the maximum strength. A hypertrophy approach can be helpful and flexible. It can give you a lot of flexibility because the evidence confirms that muscle growth occurs effectively from as low as 30% up to 85% of your 1RM, as long as the sets are approaching muscular failure. And the key factor here again is mechanical tension, not necessarily how heavy the weight feels. And that's a distinction, because some people, I have to be honest, are not training hard enough. And the most recent program I ran and I have one of my programs in the Physique University that is inspired by Alex Bromley. He has a volume-based approach, but the key is he uses AMRAP sets while building that strength base so that you can tell whether you are heavy enough on your load and you're pushing hard enough, without having to rely on subjective feel. And I think objectivity is a really helpful tool throughout this process.

Philip Pape: 11:57

A 2017 meta-analysis by Brad Schoenfeld found that when sets are taken to momentary failure, muscle hypertrophy gains are similar across a wide range of loads. However and this is really important maximal strength was not equal across rep ranges. So let me just repeat that when you take sets to failure just for a moment, you're going to gain hypertrophy no matter the load, at least when it's above this 30% threshold, but your strength isn't the same across different rep ranges. The same review found that heavy load training produced significantly greater one-arm strength gains than light load training. It's not really a surprise to those of us that have done this and trained with this, but it's important to understand that that is the case. That is where some of the differences exist. The second major difference is volume For hypertrophy total volume, which is your sets times reps. You could also say times load, because that gives you your tonnage and remember we are talking about vastly different load levels, so it's important to have that in there.

Philip Pape: 13:01

Volume is a primary driver of growth. Meta-analysis indicate that multiple sets per exercise yield more hypertrophy than single set training, and higher weekly sets per muscle group usually around 10 to 20, tend to produce more growth than lower volumes. Now I've said before that as low as five to 10 can still get you a lot of the gains that you want, but it's not optimal, it's not going to get you the most. And for those of you really serious about this that are putting in the work, just understand you generally need about 10 to 20 sets per week and again, that's a pretty well-established range that gets talked about in the industry by now and it's it holds up, based on the research. So that's that's volume for hypertrophy. Now strength training even though you do need adequate volume, it places greater emphasis on intensity over volume. Right, you can't do as many sets with near maximal weights without your performance tanking and having recovery issues and tons of fatigue. And that's where quality becomes more important than quantity. And that is why, again, to go back to the program I just ran, when I was building the base I was far sub-maximal. I was around 65, 70, 75% of my max, doing more volume, and then, as I got closer to my test, I ramped down the volume and increased the intensity.

Philip Pape: 14:17

Another thing that changes quite a bit is the rest periods. Strength training typically uses longer rest intervals between your heavy sets three to five, six, seven, eight, 10 minutes, sometimes even longer for super heavy, let's say deadlifts and this allows for your ATP-CP this is the adenosine triphosphate, creatine phosphate energy system to replenish itself. Right, it gets depleted very quickly. It also allows your central nervous system to recover and now you can go after maximal performance on each set, which is ultimately the goal, whereas traditional muscle mass or hypertrophy training often uses shorter rests 60 seconds, minute and a half, two minutes, three minutes I usually like two to three minutes for most, unless you are intentionally going after building your work capacity or doing a superset or circuit style training where you are just trying to get to those near failure reps quickly and the theory here is you're trying to increase your metabolic stress. However, however important here, current evidence suggests that longer rest intervals, even with hypertrophy, can actually enhance the muscle growth because they allow you to have more training volume, and this goes back to the volume versus intensity, versus effective reps arguments. A study by Schoenfeld compared one minute versus three minute rests in a hypertrophy program and found that the group that used the longer three minute rests achieved significantly larger muscle thickness gains.

Philip Pape: 15:55

The last thing here is exercise selection is a pretty important variable. Strength programs are gonna focus heavily on compound lifts, compound movements that allow for maximal loading. These are the lifts where you use multiple joints for maximum use of muscle mass and loading. And that would be your squat, your bench press, your overhead press, your deadlifts, your even rows and things like that, whereas accessory work is also chosen primarily to improve these main lifts rather than necessarily build muscle. So those might be developmental or targeted variations of the squat, the bench, the dead, the overhead, et cetera.

Philip Pape: 16:35

Hypertrophy programs can still be centered or foundational around compound lifts, so don't think that it just excludes them. And when we say compound lifts, we also have to expand our vocabulary to include all the variations of compound lifts. Like a Romanian deadlift is still a compound lift, a pull-up is still a compound lift. However, hypertrophy programs will also include more isolation exercises to target specific muscles from multiple angles. A bodybuilder might do flat bench, incline bench, decline, bench flies for chest development. They might do them all in one day with a body part split. A powerlifter, on the other hand, might just do their flat bench and maybe one or two variations both on or on a different day, like their other upper body day, to address weak spots, and might have some other work in there. And that's the big caveat that there is a big overlap here, because when you look at Louis Simmons and the West Side guys and again I know they were equipped, they were enhanced and all that but if you look at something like the conjugate method or really any power building program, you do see a combination of both, with the theory that one enhances the other.

Philip Pape: 17:48

So I want to translate this science into practical guidelines for your training based on your primary goal, and this is going to be a really important episode to come back to when you're wondering if the program you're looking at or the program you're designing is meeting the goals you intend. So if your main objective is maximal strength, maybe you are a competitive power lifter, maybe you just want to be as strong as possible and, by the way, you can cycle through going after strength, going after muscle, doing a little both. If your objective is strength, here's how I would structure your training. I would center your workouts on compound lifts, using primarily the, let's say, one to six rep range at 80 to 90% of your 1RM when you get close to hitting your PR. That doesn't mean you're always working in the 80 to 90%, and that's one of the many caveats I have to give you here because you're probably going to want to add some volume at lower percentages of your max as you build to those lower rep ranges. And we see this in some of the classic programs like 531, 852, where you're cycling through slightly higher rep ranges, slightly sub max, and then you're getting more intense at lower reps and then you're cycling through those. You're also going to take long rest periods, and by long I mean longer than you're probably used to, but sufficient to increase quality as much as possible.

Philip Pape: 19:13

Quality is more important than quantity here. So at least bare minimum three to five minutes between your heavy sets. You're going to focus on quality over quantity and that just means that your form it should always be important, but when it comes to really heavy lifts you've really got to be dialed in on your form. This usually means get a coach who knows what the heck they're talking about, which is also hard to find sometimes. But get a coach you know a starting strength coach is a great idea. Even if you're not doing starting strength, they can help you out. You can definitely reach out to me. I can refer you to people locally or online. There are good people. There are good groups where you could do form checks. I think quality is really important because you're only doing, let's say, three to five sets and you're not doing that many reps, but you're really having. You've got to make sure those reps are done well.

Philip Pape: 20:06

The next thing I think about with strength training training for strength is training with explosive intent Really important. Listen to me here. This is not wishy-washy. Even though the weight is moving slowly, you're going to try to move it as fast as possible on the concentric, like in a squat. That's the up part of the squat. When you're driving up with your hips, you're going to explode into that movement. You're going to at least think that way to maximize your motor unit recruitment. This is important. This is something I didn't understand for a while. You know a lot gets talked about tempo and time under tension which, by the way, is not a thing that is effective at all time under tension. But explosive concentric movement is important. The eccentric it can vary. It depends on what you're going for. It depends on if you're going to have a pause in there and everything. But the explosive intent is important.

Philip Pape: 20:56

Avoid training to failure. That is another important thing. Your programming should be designed where you are somewhat sub-max but still heavy and doing the right amount of reps so that you're at least probably two or three, if not four, reps shy of failure. Now, four reps shy of failure. That is quote-unquote. Six RPE and I rarely use I never use RPE as a training variable. I only use it as a lagging indicator, as a metric to evaluate how you did on something, but not as a metric to tell. I only use it as a lagging uh indicator, as a metric to evaluate how you did on something, but not as a metric to tell you how you should do something. That's where I differ from from some folks.

Philip Pape: 21:30

But you want to stop short of. You don't want to be in a total grind where it's an utter failure on your main lifts. The only time that should really ever happen is if you are testing a one rep max, then it it's, there's a chance it could happen, right? That's just because you're really trying to push to your max ever. And then here's the other thing people miss. Okay, beyond the novice phase, you want to have strategic accessory work in there, because you're going to have weaknesses and you have propensity for injury when you're constantly doing the same lifts and you haven't used variations of those lifts to try to shore up your weak spots. You're going to keep getting kind of stronger in the primary muscle groups involved in that movement while everything else kind of lags, and we don't want that, and that's why there's always a case to be made for some variety once you get past the novice stage. So that's my thoughts on strength training, and again, those are principles.

Philip Pape: 22:23

I noticed I didn't give you an actual program, because there's a million ways to do that, but I will suggest a few things later on. If your primary goal is hypertrophy, you want to look bigger, you want to look more muscular right, many of us want that. Even if we are trying to push big lifts, we still want that as well. Here's what I suggest. You're going to use a blend, a mix of compound and isolation exercises. So this is where you've got to have some targeted work in there to hit muscles from different angles.

Philip Pape: 22:52

You're going to work in a wide variety of rep ranges. You're going to work probably predominantly in the middle, like 6 to 12, which is equivalent to about 60 to 80% of your one RM. Notice, that's still pretty heavy. But you're going to include some lower rep work three to five potentially, which sounds like strength, doesn't it? And higher rep work 12 to 20. I mean, if you're doing a leg press, 15, 20 reps believe it or not, it can be super, super effective. That or hack squat or something like that and it's still going to feel pretty darn heavy and hard with all those reps.

Philip Pape: 23:25

Doing lots of reps is its own mental challenge compared to doing lower reps but heavy, and then you're going to take these sets pretty close to failure most of the time. If you're working in the low rep range, like three to five, you still may be more in that strength mindset of leaving a little bit in the tank. It should be two, three, four reps. But with most of the other stuff, your accessories and especially your isolation movements you're probably going to be around one to three reps of failure. You're rarely going to go all the way to failure, but it's totally doable to do that with something like bicep curls, where you just keep going, you keep going, you keep going and you literally cannot get another technical rep and then you failed and that's okay. But there are some things where you don't want to do that.

Philip Pape: 24:06

And then we mentioned volume. Volume is really important here because you want to accumulate enough volume to grow your muscles. So that is 10 to 20 sets per muscle group per week. If you are time starved, if you just have to be as efficient as possible, going as low as five could give you some results, but they're not gonna be optimal. So 10 to 20 is solid. The rest periods are gonna be, in general, two to three minutes, but some may be as low as a minute or even 30 seconds. Some small isolation work. Or, of course, if you're doing things like drop sets, mile reps, rest, pause sets things that I'm not even gonna get to detail on here but supersets things that I'm not even going to get to detail on here, but a lot of the fun bodybuilding stuff, supersets and so on. They're very time efficient ways to train and still get a similar result but fit more work into less time. But generally I'm thinking two to three minutes. So if I'm going to do pull-ups, I'm going to rest two to three minutes. If I'm doing moderately heavy barbell curls, I'm going to go two to three minutes. Now, if I'm doing 20 reps of dumbbell, hammer curls with rest pause sets, well, those by definition are going to be probably only about 30 seconds. You're also going to when you do bodybuilding or hypertrophy type work.

Philip Pape: 25:17

There is sometimes a benefit to having a really controlled eccentric. That's the lowering phase. Now, this is not because of time under tension. This is more so that you get that pause in the bottom and that stretch in the lengthened position, and it also makes it a little bit harder to come back. You're taking out the stretch reflex. I found that's really good for tendons and connective tissue as well. So one of the things I've learned a lot from injuries and surgeries is the value of pausing.

Philip Pape: 25:45

And when I do, for example, an easy bar curl, I don't just go all the way down and just smack it back up, back and forth like bouncing out of the bottom. I go all the way down almost fully unlocked. I don't go all the way 100% unlocked, but pretty close to it, where it's a very stretched bicep, I pause for a half second and then go again. It's not like I'm waiting down there for a minute, but try it out. It will make it a little harder, you will have to drop the load slightly, but you'll get in a very effective workout.

Philip Pape: 26:11

And then, of course, you want to train each muscle group at least twice per week, and this is more of the frequency variable that we didn't really touch on yet. We talked about intensity, we talked about volume, but frequency is also important, and you're going to want to hit every muscle group at least twice a week, not necessarily directly, right? If you hit triceps one day and you're doing close grip bench the other day, you hit your triceps twice. So directly and indirectly, but one at least once directly and then and then at least twice or more directly or indirectly. Total, now, that's strength and that's hypertrophy. But where most people get confused is well, I want both, like I want to have my cake and eat it too, and you kind of can.

Philip Pape: 26:53

Okay, this is where power building comes in. The quote unquote power building, and I have no problem with the term. Some people roll their eyes. Oh, power building, what is that? I don't think we have to judge the term, just define what it means. And so I think it's an excellent approach for intermediate lifters.

Philip Pape: 27:07

I got introduced to it through my coach, andy Baker. He's been on the show like three times, I think he has the record for being on the show, and since then I've discovered lots of other coaches who have a similar style approach to programming. It's a lot of fun. It covers both strength and hypertrophy, both styles. It helps you learn a lot about your form, about lifts, about how to program for yourself, about how to manage fatigue and recovery. I'm like a walking sales pitch for it because I think, like most, let's say, the guys I identify with in their forties who don't have a crap ton of time, they have some time and they dedicate time to training for sure, maybe four days a week for an hour, hour and a half, but they want to get both and they're like well, if I just focus on going after max PRS, my muscle development's going to lag. If I just go after bodybuilding, I'm going to not get those PRS that I really want.

Philip Pape: 27:55

Okay, you can, you can combine both, and so to do that, you're usually going to start your training session with a heavy compound lift or two in that strength regime, three to six rep range. Maybe you're cycling through whatever. You're then going to follow it with some accessory or targeted developmental work that gets you a little bit of hypertrophy, a little bit of strength support. Right, it works on your weak spots. But also maybe you're in the eight to 12 range for some muscle growth as well, and it really depends on the movement, some parts of your work training block you might be doing goblet squats as your variation, others you might be doing safety bar, heel elevated squats, and one might be more fatiguing than the other. So you're going to have to judge how many sets you're going to end up doing, how much rest you need and what rep ranges you work in.

Philip Pape: 28:44

And then you're going to include both strength specific exercises to support the you know, the competition lifts basically, but also bodybuilding style isolation work. So it's sort of a whole gamut, kind of like a spectrum, and it usually looks like compound accessory isolation, each of those being one or two lifts. So a total of anywhere from three to six, seven or eight lifts, depending on how much time you have and how many sets you're doing, how much volume you can take, how much recoverability you have. And then you're going to periodize your training over time. You might spend part of that time let's say four to eight weeks, not really doing many of the main lifts but just doing a lot of accessory versions of them and emphasizing hypertrophy. But then you might spend 48 weeks really just focusing a lot on the big lifts and again, nothing precludes you from going all in on strength for a while and all in on hypertrophy for a while, and all of this stuff recognizes the fundamental truth that strength and size complement each other, and you will be better for it if you do cycle through. I am not talking about program hopping. I'm talking about spending a methodical, dedicated length of time in one mode learn about it, grow from it, get everything you can from it and then say, okay, I have achieved some level of growth that is meaningful to me. Now I'm going to go and work on a different part of my growth, because that kind of variety itself can be very powerful. More muscles does give you greater strength potential. Getting stronger does allow you to use heavier weights for your hypertrophy work, and so it creates a virtuous positive feedback loop. I'm experiencing that right now. I just hit my maxes last week my squat bench and dead and now I'm back to doing a little bit more power building and I'm finding that I'm way stronger in a bunch of my accessory and isolation lifts. Well, great, what does that allow me to do? That allows me to build more muscle from those. You can't just stay stuck in one.

Philip Pape: 30:44

One of the guys I follow. He was on the show he owns Macrofactor he's part of Stronger by Science is Greg Knuckles. You guys know Greg Knuckles, If not, look him up. Great guy, respected, very respected strength researcher. He nerds out on this stuff and he summarizes this strength hypertrophy relationship perfectly. He said early on in training, muscle mass explains only a few percent of strength gains and in experienced lifters it can explain 65% or more. And I mentioned that earlier and I wanted to reiterate it here in a single quote. All right, when you start you've got to get strong and as you get more experience you can do a little of both, and this shows why an integrated approach is going to yield the best result. When you become more advanced and more advanced doesn't take long to get to. If you do this right, your novice phase might be six months long, maybe nine months, maybe a year max, but then you're an intermediate lifter, then you go after it.

Philip Pape: 31:39

So, as we clarify this relationship between strength and hypertrophy, I want to address some of the mistakes and misconceptions that could be holding you back right now listening to this, because you've heard it over and over in the fitness industry and it's just plain wrong. Okay, the first one is this notion that you must train super heavy to build muscle. Now I respect the starting strength guys, mark Ripoteau, I came through that world. It changed my life. Everyone should buy Starting Strength. In fact, I think Starting Strength is a phenomenal beginner program for anybody to follow and if If you just follow it, you're going to be golden.

Philip Pape: 32:13

However, there is a lot of discussion about how only training that way is sufficient to build muscle, and I know they don't always mean that. What they're saying is for novices don't worry about building muscle, just get strong and the muscle is going to follow. That is true, I do agree with that. But if your goal is to build muscle, you don't necessarily need the heavy close to maximum load training. Goal is to build muscle, you don't necessarily need the heavy close to maximum load training. Research definitively shows that moderate weights as low as 30% of your 1RM can build just as much muscle as heavy weights, provided the sets are taken near failure. The key is always again, mechanical tension and effort, not absolute load, and this is great news if you just want to enjoy the process of building muscle. You have joint issues. Maybe you have limited equipment that you can't get to those loads. You're just not interested in maximal strength. Now I still think that's going to limit you long-term in terms of overall size and muscle development, but you're still going to build a ton of muscle.

Philip Pape: 33:13

The second thing is the idea that you can get as strong as possible without focusing on building muscle, and I don't think the research supports that. I think, early on, getting as strong as possible is the way to go. It's very efficient. It's what you need because beginners can get stronger through neural adaptations without much increase in size, but advanced lifters almost universally need more muscle to keep getting stronger. If you've been training for years and your strength has plateaued, then focusing on hypertrophy for a while might be exactly what you need. And I hear it anecdotally every day.

Philip Pape: 33:46

Somebody says look, I took a break from going. After PRs, I worked on a more well-rounded training program for muscular development. I came back and a lot of my lifts increased. Now it doesn't mean it's gonna directly translate to a specific lift right away, but it's gonna allow you to get to new levels of maximal strength and I think that's an important caveat or an important nuance in that. For example, the program that I just ran I didn't just start right away in triples, doubles and singles in the hopes that I just ran. I didn't just start right away in triples, doubles and singles in the hopes that I was going to get new PRs. No, I actually took a step back and I did more volume to get exposed to the movement patterns while being in more of a hypertrophy range, and then I started to shift more toward the strength range as it supported my strength and then I could hit new numbers. Does that make sense? I hope that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 34:36

The third big myth is that getting a pump, feeling the burn, getting sore, means an effective hypertrophy workout. I am all for getting a pump. It's fun. It is fun and you will get sore when you're exposed to a movement for the first time or two. That's totally normal. And while metabolic stress contributes a little bit to growth, again mechanical tension is the primary driver. The more research has come out, the more we've discovered that's the case. A workout that leaves you pumped and sore is not necessarily better for muscle growth than one focused on progressively loading, using good form and getting that mechanical tension. And you know you're hitting mechanical tension. When you're somewhat close to failure and you're actually able to lift more the next time, I mean that's a really good indicator that you're getting it, not that you're sore, you're getting a pump, et cetera.

Philip Pape: 35:29

And then another misconception is thinking that bodybuilders are not strong or that powerlifters don't care about muscle, Because at the elite level I've talked to these guys directly or on the podcast, or I've listened to them there's a lot more specialization at the elite level and most successful bodybuilders are super strong. They could not get to the size they are without being strong. Most accomplished power lifters they've built tons of muscle mass. Just stop trying to separate them as if they are in separate vacuums. They are not the difference in those athletes. Their training emphasis and their competition goals cause them to train a bit differently, but their fundamental physiological adaptations are the same.

Philip Pape: 36:18

The last thing I want to say that is super important and useful program hopping is not going to help you. Program hopping between strength and hypertrophy approaches like really quickly, within just like a few weeks at a time, without giving it either time to work, is going to set you back for years. You're just gonna be stuck. You've gotta give it time and you have to have patience. Both strength and size development require consistently training, showing up to the gym, progressive loading over time, over months and over years period. I'm sorry to say it, but I'm not sorry, because once you get into it and you realize how fun the process itself can be, you are not fixated on that final number. There is no final number. I look back every year and I say, well, I wanted to accomplish X and I realized I accomplished Y, and Y might be more or less than X and it might be different than X, but I've grown and that's really important. And then you learn from that. But if you jump between programs every few weeks, you're not going to have the accumulation of adaptations, of volume, of even frequency, needed for significant progress. So stop doing it.

Philip Pape: 37:29

So now that we've covered the science and the practice, I want to give you one more thing that might change how you view your training career, and that's what it is. If you're listening to Wits and Weights, strength training should be at the top of your list numero uno. It is the driver of body composition more than anything else. Whether you're trying to lose fat, build muscle, whatever, look great, feel great, get lean, the relationship between strength and hypertrophy is going to change dramatically based on how long you've been training. So I want you to think about this your training career when you're a beginner a lot of you are. You're listening to me. You're thinking I got to get off the couch, I got to start training. Or maybe I used to work out years ago, I've got to get back to it. Or maybe I've been going to the gym for 10 years but I'm not really getting the results.

Philip Pape: 38:17

You're a beginner. You are a beginner. If you don't feel like right now you are constantly getting stronger and growing and building muscle, you're doing something wrong and you're a beginner and that's okay. I envy you because you could now, doing it the right way, get jacked and strong so quickly. And so beginners want to focus primarily on getting stronger. In that moderate rep range, I'll say four to six to really narrow it down for you. Right, fives are classically thrown out there because of starting strength and what is it called? Strong lifts? Five by five, all of those, but even like five to 10, you know, through compound lifts you're just going to get so strong and you're going to build some size.

Philip Pape: 38:56

Once you get past that first few weeks of neuromuscular efficiency and actually start adding new muscle, it is the most efficient path period. The neurological adaptations come quickly. They call them newbie gains. The moderate volume provides enough stimulus for initial growth. And then you have a lot of frequency in that you are like squatting every session. You're deadlifting every session and you can do that. Don't think that you need to squat once every two weeks. You're not advanced enough to do that. You need to do it frequently.

Philip Pape: 39:26

So a program like Starting Strength, as mentioned before, is ideal for this. And you know, if I remember to do so, I'm going to throw a link in. No, you know what, I'm not going to throw a link in my show notes. I already have a link to the workout programs from Physique University in the show notes and in that file. All you have to do is ask for it. You'll download it In that file. If you go to the novice tab, it actually mentions starting strength and it points you to resources, a walkthrough that I've done on it, all the things you need to know. It's all in there, okay, and I give you other options for novice programs as well. These things will produce strength and visible muscle gains. If you're a novice and those first six, nine, 12 months are magical, if you do it consistently, if you eat enough, if you sleep enough, it's amazing. I am jealous for you. You've got to get on that right now.

Philip Pape: 40:13

Now for intermediates who have been training for, say, one to three years, seriously doing it the right way, using a barbell, using heavy implements, whatever it takes to get stronger from wherever you were, wherever you started, power building, I think, is great. I think the power building approach might be I don't want to say yields the quote unquote best results. That's a subjective statement. But it gives you enough heavy work to keep developing that neurological efficiency and keep those movement patterns in there, but also sufficient volume, variety, frequency of smaller isolation work to continue building muscle. So it's a nice blend if you have the time and the inclination for it. It's also a lot of fun. I think it's a great way to just keep yourself motivated.

Philip Pape: 40:56

And now, if you're more advanced than that, if you're pushing four, five, six years of serious progressive training getting strong, building muscle, you're going to need greater specialization period. Your nervous system adaptations are pretty much tapped out. They've maxed out. Further strength gains are going to correlate very heavily on increasing your muscle size, as we've mentioned a couple of times already. I mean this is why elite power lifters include distinct hypertrophy blocks in their training cycle. This is why Westside has power building, slash hypertrophy work constantly in there. They've got speed work, they've got bands and chains accommodating resistance. All of this specialization.

Philip Pape: 41:36

You know you may have a part of your body that does not respond as quickly as others. Maybe it's your biceps, maybe it's your back, maybe it's your calves guys, you know the calves are tough for a lot of us Maybe it's your glutes, whatever it is that you want to get bigger, you might have to specialize, you might need more frequency or a more targeted approach. And so you know, when you just look at competitive power lifters including those and you understand why and conversely, bodybuilders right, who are advanced bodybuilders, they're going to spend time in some strength periods in the off season, when they're eating, when they're not dieting right, because dieting is a big part of bodybuilding leading up to competition. But in the improvement season, the off season, they're going to be pushing their strength in the key lifts, not to mention the accessories and the isolation work. They want to be able to handle heavier weights, they want to have better connective tissue and joint health and ability to handle their fatigue and their recovery. And they might not test their 1RMs all the time, but they will track their strength to ensure that they're actually improving and getting stronger.

Philip Pape: 42:40

So the surprising truth, I'll say, is that for most of us, who I would call enthusiasts or recreational lifters, the goals of strength and hypertrophy are not competing, they're complementary. And if you know how to balance and periodize both types of training kind of like, we balance and periodize fat loss and muscle building phases, calorie deficits and calorie surpluses, and it's based on your experience level, based on the year time of year, based on your personal preferences and enjoyment, based on how much stress you have right now, based on how much recoverability you have, based on your diet itself. Your diet and your training actually go hand in hand as to which one you focus on when. If you're trying to max out your PRs, you probably should be doing that while you're eating a bunch of food and sleeping right, not in a dieting phase. You're just not going to. So if you can do that, you can achieve impressive gains in both, and you're not going to sacrifice either. You're not. It's going to work out, it really will. And isn't that liberating to know that you do not have to choose between being strong and looking strong right, if you have smart programming, you can have both.

Philip Pape: 43:44

So the next time that you are designing your training program or evaluating whether you should follow this strength-focused program here, this power-building program here, this hypertrophy program here, remember a few things from this episode and re-review this episode. I think it's important. Number one both strength and hypertrophy training rely on mechanical tension, but they optimize different aspects of it. Number two is that strength requires heavier loads, usually up above 65% of your 1RM, ideally around 80% or higher to maximize the neural adaptations, the movement patterns. Number three is that hypertrophy can occur across a much broader range of loads, as low as 30% of your 1RM, as long as you're training hard, as long as your effort is sufficient to get close to failure, to get that mechanical tension.

Philip Pape: 44:33

Number four if you're a beginner, get strong, get strong in the compound movements, ideally with a barbell. Number five if you're an intermediate, blend heavy strength work with hypertrophy work and kind of work them both in in a power building style. That's usually an efficient way to do it. And then, number six, if you're advanced, you've got to specialize and recognize that size and strength will always continue to be interconnected. So I want you to understand the science at this point is pretty clear. We're not really fuzzy on this. If you understand the relationship between strength and hypertrophy, you can train more intelligently and efficiently, saving time, avoiding the confusion that plagues so many lifters out there that do not have a clue. And if you think you don't have a clue, listen to this episode at least two times and reach out for help.

Philip Pape: 45:20

Go, download my programs. Join Wits and Weights Physique University. We'll help you figure it all out. And by applying these evidence-based principles. That's what they are. They're principles. It's not specific methods or programs. It's principles. If you can apply them, you're going to optimize your results. You will, I guarantee it. It's physics, it's biology. It's going to work, whether your goal is to lift more weight, build more muscle or both, all right. So if you're ready to put these principles into action because that is what you need next, guys, ladies and gentlemen, you need action.

Philip Pape: 45:51

I've created a complete set of strength and physique focused workout programs from Whitson Weights Physique University. We drop a new set every month and I'm giving you the latest month if you use the link in my show notes and I've got programs in there for novice, intermediate, advanced, different levels of equipment, different days per week. The programs incorporate both strength and hypertrophy elements and they give you balanced development depending on where you are in your training age. There's a built-in log, there's exercise substitutions, there's links to videos. It's got everything. Guys, what are you waiting for? It's totally free. Go to witsowheightscom, slash free or, better yet, just click the link in the show notes to download your free copy today. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember, with the right training approach, you don't have to choose between being strong and looking strong. You can have both. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The Most CRITICAL Skill for Sustainable Fat Loss | Ep 296

Get 2 weeks free + your first trial in the Physique University, the program that helps ambitious individuals master the approach discussed in this episode with personalized guidance and community support at witsandweights.com/physique

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Frustrated by lack of progress despite tracking, training, and eating right? 

Learn why the most critical skill for sustainable fat loss isn't what you eat or how you train, but something far more powerful that most people completely overlook.

Without this skill, you'll likely abandon your efforts prematurely and end up back where you started—it's the ESSENTIAL skill for permanent fat loss results.

Main Takeaways:

• The 4 impatience traps that sabotage fat loss

• Why patience is the foundation that makes all other fat loss skills effective

• 5 practical strategies to develop patience during your fat loss journey

• How to shift from "how quickly can I lose this weight" to "how can I lose this fat for the last time"

Episode Resources:

• Join Wits & Weights Physique University and get your first challenge plus 2 weeks free: witsandweights.com/physique

Timestamps:

• 0:02 - Why patience is the most critical fat loss skill

• 4:13 - The most common impatience traps in fat loss

• 13:56 - Why patience is the foundation skill for sustainable results

• 19:31 - Practical strategies to develop patience

• 27:01 - The liberating truth about patience

The Most Critical Skill for Sustainable Fat Loss

Are you frustrated that fat loss isn’t happening as fast as you expected? You’re tracking, training, hitting your protein target—but the scale isn’t moving fast enough.

Here’s the truth: The most critical skill for sustainable fat loss has nothing to do with what you eat or how you train. It’s patience.

Without it, you’ll abandon your efforts too soon, get discouraged by normal fluctuations, and end up in the same yo-yo cycle that’s held you back for years. But when you develop patience, you unlock a completely different approach—one that leads to permanent results instead of temporary weight loss.

Let’s talk about why patience is the most overlooked fat loss skill, the common mistakes that sabotage progress, and the practical strategies to develop it.

The 4 Impatience Traps That Sabotage Fat Loss

Many people unknowingly set themselves up for failure by falling into one (or more) of these impatience traps:

1. Expecting the Scale to Drop Quickly and Consistently

The biggest mistake in fat loss is assuming the scale should go down every week in a predictable fashion.

But weight loss isn’t linear.

Your body regulates fluid retention, hormones fluctuate, and metabolic adaptation happens. Some weeks you’ll drop pounds, other weeks you’ll maintain—even if you’re doing everything “right.”

This is why trend weight matters more than daily fluctuations. If you panic every time the scale doesn’t move, you’ll be tempted to drastically cut calories, add excessive cardio, or quit altogether—all of which backfire in the long run.

2. Treating Fat Loss Like a Countdown

Many people start their fat loss phase thinking, “I have 16 weeks to lose 20 pounds.” But your body doesn’t care about your deadline.

Stress, sleep, training intensity, hormones, and genetics all affect the pace of weight loss. If you lock yourself into a strict timeline, you set yourself up for frustration when things don’t go exactly as planned.

Instead of focusing on when you’ll reach your goal, focus on how you’ll get there sustainably.

3. Expecting Perfection Instead of Consistency

You don’t need to hit your macros perfectly every day. You don’t need to train flawlessly every session. Fat loss happens because of consistent effort over time, not perfection.

If you expect perfection, one missed workout or one off-plan meal can feel like failure, leading you to throw in the towel instead of staying the course.

4. Assuming Fat Loss Should Feel Easy

You’ve probably heard, “Fat loss should be effortless.” That’s marketing, not reality.

Yes, the process can be simplified and made more efficient, but it still requires:

• Tracking and managing food intake

• Sticking to a calorie deficit

• Prioritizing protein and training for muscle retention

• Handling hunger and energy fluctuations

Fat loss isn’t miserable, but it does require effort—especially at first. The key is making it manageable and sustainable, not expecting it to be effortless.

Why Patience is the Most Important Skill in Fat Loss

Patience is what keeps you in the game when progress slows down. It’s what prevents you from making knee-jerk decisions based on short-term frustrations. Here’s why it’s so critical:

1. Patience Allows for Data-Driven Decisions

When you’re patient, you don’t panic over one bad weigh-in or an off week. You look at the trends over several weeks, analyze biofeedback, and make strategic adjustments—rather than randomly slashing calories or adding endless cardio.

2. Patience Leads to Consistent Execution

If you expect setbacks, fluctuations, and plateaus, you’re less likely to give up when they happen. Instead of questioning whether your plan is working, you stay consistent because you understand the process.

3. Patience Creates Space for Habit Development

You can’t overhaul everything at once. Patience allows you to master one habit at a time, whether it’s hitting your protein target, increasing daily steps, or improving sleep.

The mistake most people make? Trying to do everything perfectly from Day 1. That’s why most crash and burn. A patient approach ensures long-term success.

4. Patience Helps You Set Realistic Expectations

A sustainable rate of fat loss is 0.5–1% of body weight per week. That means:

• A 200-pound person might lose 1–2 pounds per week.

• A 150-pound person might lose 0.75–1.5 pounds per week.

Some weeks you might lose nothing. Some weeks you might see a bigger drop. But when you zoom out, you’ll see the consistent downward trend—as long as you stick with the plan.

5 Strategies to Develop Patience

You might be thinking, “That’s great, but I’m not a patient person.” The good news? Patience is a skill you can build. Here’s how:

1. Use the Right Metrics and Track Trends

• Weigh yourself daily, but only look at the weekly trend

• Track waist measurements and progress photos (the scale doesn’t tell the full story)

• Track strength and gym performance (muscle retention is key)

2. Focus on Process Goals, Not Just Outcome Goals

Instead of fixating on “I need to lose 20 pounds,” shift your focus to:
✅ Hitting protein 80% of the time
✅ Getting 7,000+ steps per day
✅ Strength training 3–4 times per week

The process is what gets you the results.

3. Celebrate Non-Scale Victories

Progress isn’t just about weight. Celebrate:

• Clothes fitting better

• Increased energy levels

• Strength improvements in the gym

• Better relationship with food

These are meaningful milestones that prove you’re on the right track—even if the scale is being stubborn.

4. Surround Yourself with Supportive People

If you’re around people who push crash diets, it’s easy to feel behind.

If you’re around people who understand long-term progress, it’s easier to stay patient.

Find a community (like Wits & Weights Physique University) where sustainable results are the norm.

5. Plan for Plateaus in Advance

Plateaus will happen. If you expect them, you won’t panic. Instead, have a plan:

• Look at the past 3–4 weeks (not just a few days)

• Check your adherence (are you actually hitting your targets?)

• Adjust if necessary, but don’t overreact

The Long Game is the Fastest Path

Ironically, the people who try to lose fat the fastest often fail the hardest. They crash diet, rebound, and repeat the cycle for years.

The people who take their time, focus on the process, and build sustainable habits? They get leaner, stay lean, and never have to "diet" again.

Fat loss doesn’t have a deadline. The only rush is the one you create in your head.

So take a breath. Trust the process. Stay consistent.

If you do that, you’ll reach your goal—and keep your results for life.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

Are you frustrated because your fat loss isn't happening as quickly as you expected? You're tracking, you're training, you're getting your protein, but the scale isn't budging fast enough. Today we're uncovering why the most critical skill for sustainable fat loss is not what you eat or how you train. It's something far more powerful that most people completely overlook. Without this skill, you're almost guaranteed to abandon your efforts prematurely and end up right back where you started. But when you develop it, you unlock a completely different approach that transforms quick-fix weight loss into permanent fat loss. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I want to talk about the critical role of something that many people don't have. Many people need to cultivate something that I didn't have for many, many years and I finally learned to develop, and that is the P word patience. This is not something that you're going to hear from someone trying to sell rapid results or overnight before and after transformations. Those quick fixes are exactly why so many people find themselves in perpetual weight loss cycles, where they lose and regain, and lose and regain the same weight over and over. Today we're going to talk about why patience isn't just a virtue. It is the essential skill that makes sustainable fat loss possible. Whether you're starting your journey today for the very first time the right way, or you've been stuck in a frustrating yo-yo cycle of quick results followed by the inevitable rebound, this episode will give you some of those practical strategies for developing this mindset that we need for lasting change, because, yes, it is a skill and yes, you can develop it Now, before we dive in. If you want to stop this cycle of temporary weight loss and instead build a system for permanent fat loss, I invite you to check out my semi-private coaching program called Wits and Weights Physique University. My team and I there provide personalized nutrition guidance, accountability, a supportive community that helps you master this exact patience-driven approach that we are discussing today. One of our members, nadine, recently shared quote the program has helped me reframe how I look at weight loss. Instead of fighting the process and suffering through it, I'm embracing it with less judgment each day. End quote. And Nadine, if you're listening to this, you know that when you started with us, even the idea of tracking was just a terrible thought, and I know you wanted to get that result and weren't sure quite how to get there and you are a winner because you embraced the process and now are a great example, and even a mentor, to others going through this. So if this sounds like what you're looking for, visit witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to learn more and join us. You'll get two weeks free. Your first challenge free. Kick the tires If you don't like, you can cancel. If you do, I hope you'll stick around. And again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 3:22

All right, so let's get into today's topic on the most critical skill for sustainable fat loss, and I want to break it down into three sections. First, we're going to talk about the common impatience traps that sabotage your effort to lose fat, so that you're aware of them. Second, we're going to talk about why patience is the foundational skill, not training, not nutrition. That is all, quote unquote, easy to do once you have patience. Patience really is that important that makes fat loss possible. And then finally, of course, practical strategies to develop patients during this journey. So let's start by talking about the impatience traps, and I've worked with lots of clients who, when we get started, the first few weeks can be very difficult because we are not just jumping right into fat loss.

Philip Pape: 4:13

And if you want to work with me, if you want to get real, meaningful, sustainable fat loss, just know you're not going to see a drop in the scale in the first month and the reason you're not is intentional. We are trying to set up your system. We are getting you training effectively, we're getting you tracking your food, your measurements, your photos, your biofeedback, all of the things. So we have a good baseline, so we know where you actually stand and then we know your true starting point for the fat loss phase. Well, what happens sometimes with my clients is they'll understand that for the first few weeks and then they'll start their fat loss phase, maybe four or six weeks, in sometimes eight weeks depending on how ready they are. And they're doing all the things they're training, they're tracking, they're staying on top of their habits, they're getting the step count.

Philip Pape: 4:58

But then inevitably I get the message that says I'm so frustrated, the scale's not moving. We're already four weeks into the 16 week fat loss phase and I'm just struggling. I feel like I'm doing everything right and it's not working Right, and you could feel the underlying impatience in these messages. I take it personally, it's that sense of I should be further along or this should feel easier by now. And my clients are not alone in this. This is incredibly common and probably one of the most common frustrations of all, especially when you're conditioned to think about weight loss, specifically the scale moving, and it moving fairly quickly. So what I want to do is lay out the impatient traps that anyone can fall into, including my clients, when they get started with me, even after we have the conversation, even when we set expectations, and I have to be there for them to make sure that they can push through that mental roadblock and start reframing this into a process, into a sustainable system.

Philip Pape: 5:58

And the first impatience trap is you got it expecting the scale to move quickly and consistently, because when you're eating in a deficit, you might think the scale should drop predictably every week. In fact, I usually give my clients a simple little graph that shows them if they start at this point and things go well at a certain rate of loss. They're going to get at this point roughly around this time. But I also have a bunch of caveats. Like it never actually goes that way. It can go up and down. There are things that are going to challenge you along the way, that I'm going to be there to support you through, and at the end of the day, we are going to get you the result. But we'll have done it the right way, while developing your system that will allow you to do it time you want in the future.

Philip Pape: 6:43

Because weight loss is not linear. Your body regulates fluid retention, your hormones fluctuate, we've got metabolic adaptation that happens when you're losing weight. All of these things can conspire to mask fat loss on the scale for days or even weeks, especially when you get started. It's a transition. Your body is fighting your desire to drop energy and so it might hold on to more fluid. Or you could be training harder than you ever have in your life, especially if you're working with beer. You're going to be training the right way. That's going to cause some inflammation, some glycogen uptake you know glucose uptake some fluid retention that can pop the number on the scale a bit.

Philip Pape: 7:22

It's one of those things I'm like man, should I even get people training this quickly and having that effect where they're building muscle and holding fluid but it doesn't look as great on the scale? And then I always get. The answer always is yes, of course, because training is the number one stimulus to holding onto and building muscle. The second one is going to be how fast you diet or gain, in terms of whether you're able to do that. Going to be how fast you diet or gain in terms of whether you're able to do that. So a lot of things can mask fat loss for a while, and this is why I like trend weight and lots of other factors, because even if the trend weight is not moving but your waist is coming down, that's telling you maybe you're building a little muscle and losing some fat.

Philip Pape: 8:00

There's a lot of things that can mask it. And we have to be patient and even if this isn't the right deficit for you, that data will tell us it's not the right deficit. If you're in a true plateau, obviously we want to get through that as quickly as possible and I help people do that with as much data gathering as we have. But it still happens because your body is going to do what it's going to do and if you're measuring against an arbitrary timeline like well, I'm already four weeks in and we're supposed to do this in 16 weeks then you're going to feel like you're falling behind. By the way. This is a reason that I do monthly plans now instead of six month packages, which I literally just made that change not long ago. So I probably have quite a few clients today who came in on paid in full packages and now I do monthly. And the reason I do monthly is I don't want you to feel the pressure of a clock. So any clients listening who are like, oh, how do I do that? Can I switch to monthly? Just reach out and talk to me, because I am always transparent with this stuff and you probably have a great deal because you paid ahead of time. But if monthly is better for you, we can do that. Anyway, that's why I do that. So that's the first trap is expecting the scale to move quickly and consistently. It doesn't work that way.

Philip Pape: 9:09

The second impatience trap is treating fat loss like a countdown with a fixed end point, right. So again, these comments I sometimes have about feeling the pressure to lose and you haven't lost yet. It reveals that mindset, that conditioned mindset. Your body doesn't care about the timeline, it's going to adapt and it's going to do so at its own pace, based on countless factors your hormones, your stress levels, your sleep quality, your genetics, and these factors are always changing. Your body's always changing, even during fat loss. You are becoming a different person day by day, and so your expenditure, your metabolism is constantly fluxing through that and even though your coach might've said you know what we're going to try for a pound a week and you want to lose 16 pounds, so it's going to be about 16 weeks Again. Go back to impatience trap one. It doesn't always work like that. Sometimes it's faster, sometimes it's slower. Sometimes you need to go more aggressive halfway through or less faster, sometimes it's slower, sometimes you need to go more aggressive halfway through or less.

Philip Pape: 10:11

The third impatience trap is expecting perfection instead of consistency. What I mean by that is you are expecting of yourself that you have to do everything perfectly, that you have to get all your protein every day, that you have to hit your calories perfectly, that you have to be perfect that perfectionist mindset which, again, is super common. I have my own tendencies like that. It is a major reason that people abandon their fat loss efforts prematurely because they hit one imperfect week or even day and they decide the whole approach must be flawed, rather than recognizing that consistency over time, which means not perfection every day, but getting something done on that path. As part of that process, getting those wins every day more often than not, is going to matter way more than just a miss in a particular day or a particular week. And for some of you this is a big trap. For others it's not as big of a trap, so recognizing that is helpful.

Philip Pape: 11:07

The fourth trap is the expectation that progress should feel easy. This is important because there's too much overselling of how you work with me and I'm going to make fat loss so easy. There won't be any hunger, we're going to do it the right way. We're going to recover your metabolism. Blah, blah, blah. You're going to eat more and you're going to lose weight.

Philip Pape: 11:28

All of that messaging is terrible because even though fat loss shouldn't feel miserable 100% agree with that it also isn't effortless and I've probably been accused of using those terms as well in relative terms, but I apologize if it came across as disingenuous because in reality, trying to get enough protein, trying to manage your hunger using meal planning, those all require effort. You know hitting the gym, especially when the calories are low, it requires effort, and the irony, I guess, is which is a really nice irony is that if you're trying to do things in a perfect way like, let's say, you're trying to hit all your protein with just whole foods when you realize later that maybe you can have a couple scoops of whey protein to make it a little bit less difficult on yourself are ways to approach the process efficiently by using some upfront effort to then reduce the friction and the effort throughout the process so, while it's not effortless, you can make it more efficient. That, in fact, is what this show Wits and Weights is all about. It's figuring out all the things you don't have to do, then seeing what's left, working hard on those but to do them as efficiently as possible, like doing heavy squats and compound lifts. That's heavy, it takes effort, but it takes a lot less effort than beating yourself up with cardio and going to the gym seven days a week and stressing yourself out and making the calories harder to hit because now your body has adapted even further right and on and on and on right. That's a different type of hard that I don't wish on anybody, but it'll never feel easy. There's always some work that has to be done and, of course again, as a coach, I love helping people through that to find the thing that they can do most efficiently for their time and take the little bit of effort up front to put that in place, to put that system in place.

Philip Pape: 13:19

So these are the four traps expecting linear progress, fixating on timelines, demanding perfection and assuming it should feel easy. And they're the main reasons that I think people abandon fat loss efforts prematurely. And that's why I think it's the most critical skill for fat loss, because otherwise you're just not going to stay the course. And it's not that their approach itself isn't working, it's not that the information is inaccurate, it's that their expectations don't match the reality of how fat loss actually happens. And I suppose you could say that is its own form of information, but some of that information is colored by you as an individual. That's the key.

Philip Pape: 13:56

So then, if those are the traps, why is patient specifically the most important skill? Well, first, it allows you to make data-driven decisions right. So patience is the antithesis of patient. Patience traps right, and when you're patient you don't overreact to normal fluctuations, you collect sufficient data over weeks, not just days, and then you make adjustments based on trends over time. And then this prevents that all too common cycle of constantly changing your approach and hopping around, whether it's your program or your nutrition or what you're eating before anything has time to work. So if you have the data, it starts to give you that confidence over time and again. I see this with new clients who join my coaching program, where they've tried five different diets in the past year carnivore, paleo, intermittent, fasting, the whole thing and they never stick with any of them long enough to see if they actually work. Or paleo, intermittent, fasting, the whole thing and they never stick with any of them long enough to see if they actually work, or they white knuckle through longer than they probably should, whereas patience breaks this cycle by giving strategies enough time to demonstrate their effectiveness.

Philip Pape: 15:01

The second reason patience is so important it enables consistent execution, equals consistent execution. When you understand the natural ebbs and flows, the daily fluctuations, the temporary plateaus, they just don't throw you off. I know every day my weight could be up or down by like three or four pounds and when that happens I look at it and I say that's interesting, check, put it in my app, move on for the rest of the day. Is there a tiny piece in the back of my brain, in my primitive brain, that's still stuck in? Oh no, if you're trying to lose fat and the scale went up. That means it's not going in the right direction. Sure, there's always that tiny piece of doubt way, way back inside, but I've developed a skill of patience and I know that it's going to work because I've done it four or five times by now. I've helped hundreds of people do it, and it always works if you follow the right process. It may be harder or easier for different people, it may take longer, but it's going to work, and so that motivates you to keep executing the plan consistently, because you recognize these are normal parts of the process. You recognize these are normal parts of the process.

Philip Pape: 16:08

Third, patience creates space for developing your habits. Let me say that again Patience creates space for developing your habits. One of the biggest mistakes I see is people trying to change too many habits at once. Now, granted, if you're working with a coach like myself, I will have a list of things that we are going to work on. We don't necessarily hit them all at once, and if we do hit multiple ones, they're in a controlled way, with my support, and as soon as I see there's too much to handle, we strip them away. So there's a balance. There's always a balance. But don't go after too many habits than you can handle. Don't go after too many habits than you can handle. Patience allows you to master one habit at a time, building a sustainable foundation. In my client's case, that might be protein intake, that might be step count, that might be training, and every single one of my clients has one that jumps to the top and then the rest becomes sort of secondary or hey, you know, if we get to that, that's fine, but this is the one we're gonna focus on. And then, once that is in place, it gives you the energy and the space to work on the next one. And patience creates space for that, because you're not expecting to be a master at everything all at once. And then, fourth, is that patience allows for realistic expectations.

Philip Pape: 17:26

When you understand that fat loss is full of these ebbs and flows, you know that a reasonable rate is about a half to 1% of your body weight a week, and even that can vary significantly by the person. You know, for someone weighing 200 pounds, that's one to two pounds a week. And then there's going to be weeks with no apparent progress, despite doing everything right, and some weeks where you might achieve double that rate. You just don't know until you see it on the scale over time. And so the interesting paradox here is that people who try to lose fat as quickly as possible usually end up taking longer to reach their goals if they reach them at all because they're going to crash diet. They're going to lose weight rapidly, they're going to lose muscle as well, and then they'll rebound because they are just starving. They can't sustain the approach. They can't stay in such a deficit. Their training goes to heck that's me trying not to swear and they end up heavier than where they started.

Philip Pape: 18:22

In contrast, those who have a more patient timeline tend to reach their goals faster. In absolute terms I've said this before the long game is actually the fastest path to success. They lose fat at a moderate rate, they preserve muscle, they learn the sustainable habits and they stick those habits along the way, and then they don't experience this rebound and they're the ones that are successful for the rest of their lives. I've seen this play out every time with my clients. Those who want the fast track okay. They usually end up spinning their wheels for years, and I generally will not even take on a client who seems to have that mentality. Those who commit to the longer journey actually reach their destination, and oftentimes in less total duration, despite the slower pace.

Philip Pape: 19:11

So let's get a little bit practical here. How do you actually develop patience? Because you're listening to all this, you're like that's great, now I'm not a patient person, or I don't know how to be patient. Like it's great for you to tell me, philip, but what do I do? So I'm going to give you some actual strategies. How about that? We're going to give you five strategies. Hopefully this episode isn't going too long, but here you go.

Philip Pape: 19:31

The first strategy is to use appropriate metrics and measurement frequency. One of my favorites because it's related to tracking the right not to care about because of the fluctuations. So instead we're going to track every day, but then we're going to take the trend over roughly a three week period. We're going to take progress photos and circumference measurements weekly, but not necessarily care about each one. We're going to look at that over time. We're going to take your performance metrics in the gym and again, it's not doesn't matter if one day you miss some reps. I mean, I don't want you to miss reps. We're going to try to set things up so you don't miss reps. But if you do, if you have a weaker day, if you have an off day, so what? We're going to use that data to say okay, next time, here's what we need to. Frequency. And that's a key distinction, because some data points we do track frequently, like scale, weight and food, we're going to track daily, but we don't necessarily care about the daily number. We care about the weekly or twice or thrice weekly trend. My ability to use the word thrice, I was just able to do that.

Philip Pape: 20:52

Strategy number two focusing on the process goals rather than the outcome goals. This is a classic. Instead of fixating on I'm going to lose, you know, 20 pounds by this date, I want you to set a goal like I'm going to hit my protein target 80% of the days this month. That's an example of a process goal. And even then you're not, because it's for the whole month. You're not even looking at the day-to-day per se. Over a few weeks you're saying am I on track? And then you have time to correct, not feeling like it's all or nothing. Another one would be I'm going to train all my training days this week. I'm going to complete all my workouts, I just did them. It's not even about the metrics, just simple ways to get wins based on the process right, and those provide a lot of motivation. They help you build the habits to your desired outcome and, rather than harping on the things that are negative, celebrate the things that are positive and then just continue working on the other things, all right.

Philip Pape: 21:51

Strategy number three is creating meaningful milestones that are not just about the scale. You know you can celebrate for anything. You can celebrate when you consistently hit your step goal for a month, right Kind of a streak, when you increase your strength in the gym, when you find sustainable ways to incorporate more protein, like it doesn't have to be even the number itself, the amount of protein, but it could instead be the fact that you found an easy way to get your protein through some sort of snacks or protein shakes, or the timing of your food, or making something you really like that just surprisingly has a lot of protein, like, oh, shrimp, I didn't realize that was just pretty much all protein. And these reinforce, these meaningful milestones, reinforce that progress comes in lots and lots of forms. I mean practically infinite forms that you could make for yourself. You could gamify the whole process.

Philip Pape: 22:41

One of my clients from a long time ago his name was Elijah and he had a great example of this. He said, quote I see a visible change in how my arms fit in my shirts. I like seeing that I'm filling out these sleeves a bit better. I also like that. I'm noticing that change. I've also made rep PRs in the gym, which is exciting, so he kind of threw that in too. But just the visible change in how arms fit in shirts, it's a meaningful milestone for him.

Philip Pape: 23:03

Strategy number four building a support system that understands and values patients. Ah, this is a good one. This is a good one. This is being around people who encourage the patients, as opposed to around people that are all fixated on fast weight loss. You know, like, if you're around all people that are on you know this crash diet or on Weight Watchers, you're going to think like them. But if you're around a coach, a community, friends who get what you're doing, then it's easier for you to also be patient when they're patient.

Philip Pape: 23:33

And so the conversations I have with my clients, where I'm able to kind of talk, to all of that lead, so to speak, but also our physique university, where we have a whole slew of people at all different stages of their journey. And what's nice is when a new member comes in they can see from some of the longer term members how they've embraced that process and got the results. And it's really refreshing because they're like oh okay, I know it takes a bit of time and I know I have to put this in place, and doing that I know will also give the result. And when you get that result it's so fulfilling. One of my clients in there, charlene. She said quote I learned that I really do need the support and accountability from a group like this in order to succeed. And Jody said I learned that I do need the support from you and Philip so I don't just keep spinning my wheels, not going anywhere. These are just great examples of the value of accountability for achieving your goals.

Philip Pape: 24:24

Strategy number five is to prepare for plateaus in advance. Oh, this is a good one, you know. So here's the thing If you know plateaus are going to happen, if you assume they're going to happen and that they're actually a good thing, they're a normal thing, then don't wait until you're frustrated to figure out how you're going to handle those plateaus, having a plan for what you'll do when the progress stalls, whether it's your weight your training whatever, because it will stall for whatever reason for internal and external reasons can be massively liberating. And this could include reviewing your, say, previous progress photos to see the changes that the scale doesn't show, so that you know, when things don't feel to be changing, they actually are. It could be focusing on non-scale victories and it could be connecting with your support system, reaching out to say what do I do if this happens? Now, I know you can't anticipate every plateau.

Philip Pape: 25:20

Again, it sounds like I'm plugging coaching a lot here, but it's because this is my personal experience. When it comes to plateaus, it's nice to talk to someone who has seen them all, has seen all the plateaus and can help you kind of get ahead of that. So the key thing here is that patience is not passive. It is an active skill. It involves making deliberate choices about how you measure progress, about what to focus on, about who to surround yourself with and how you respond to challenges. And what's nice about that is it's not that I'm asking you to get patience. That's not a thing. You can't just cultivate patience out of nowhere. You do it by taking specific actions and building the skill, and the most patient people I know are not naturally more patient than anyone else. I'm raising my own hand. I can be extremely impatient, but what these people have, and what I've had to have for myself, is a better system. A better system that accounts for the realities realities of whatever.

Philip Pape: 26:21

In this case, we're talking about fat loss, but it could be any process, and that means I don't have to rely on willpower. I know what will or could happen and therefore I've got a system to handle it. And so think about what we call patience in the context of fat loss. It's really just proper expectation setting combined with the right feedback mechanisms. That's all it is, and when you know what to expect, when you have appropriate ways to measure progress, then consistency becomes easier, rather than it being something that you just have to find right. I know what to do, I just need to do it. No, that should be the way that we do it. We should have a system, so it just happens, and that's, again, extremely liberating.

Philip Pape: 27:01

With this whole thing, you don't need to magically become a more patient person overnight. You just need better systems that allow you to trust the process, and I get that that's difficult when you're doing this the first time, and it takes a while to see some of those results. So that's where you have to lean into some of what I've been telling you today. So when my clients come to me and they're frustrated early on because they're not seeing the scale move, first of all I send them an encouraging message. I say something like hey, I see how frustrated you are. That's definitely not where we would hope to be by now. But I'm here to help you and we could adjust your approach to make sure that you have targets that are both easier to hit and refocus on the progress you've already made. Build on that and then also look at areas where we're maybe underperforming whether it's by choice or because that's how your body's responding and then work on those things. Whether it's your training right I'm thinking of a recent client who just needed a training adjustment because she had dumbbells and a TRX system and wasn't able to get to a barbell anytime soon. So I said, all right, let's work with that. Let's just work with that so you get the progress because it's going to be fine.

Philip Pape: 28:11

And then when the clients are able to step back and see these little forms of progress that then become bigger forms of progress, and then the real big progress starts to happen in terms of fat loss, the perspective tends to shift over time. So I'm kind of I'm rambling a little bit today and being a little vulnerable. Maybe I'm saying things I should or shouldn't, I don't know. This is just what's in my head. I hope you resonate with what I'm saying, and I want to leave you with a quote from one of my clients who went through this and then a few weeks later she said quote I realized I was too focused on the timeline and not enough on the process. Now that I'm tracking more than just the scale, I can see I'm making real progress and I'm actually enjoying the journey. Her relationship with the process had transformed.

Philip Pape: 28:50

When you shift your mindset from how quickly can I lose this weight to how can I lose this fat for the last time, everything changes. The timeline extends, but so does your likelihood of success, and so, at the end of the day, you actually get the results sooner and it's sustainable and ultimately, isn't that what matters. So my final thoughts to you are that patience is it's an essential skill because without it, having all the nutrition knowledge, training, expertise, tracking, diligence in the world will not produce the result. With patience, you give yourself one of the greatest gifts in fitness. It's the thing that is tied to the speed of light that we can't change, and that is time, time, time. You can't change time, so with patience, you actually flex into it. You give yourself time to adapt, you give yourself time for habits to form, you give yourself time for sustainable methods to work, time to build a physique and a lifestyle that you can maintain for life.

Philip Pape: 29:47

So, if you take nothing else from today, I want you to remember that your fat loss timeline is probably longer than you think, and that that's actually good news, because the goal guess what? It isn't to lose fat. It's not, it really isn't. It's to become someone who naturally maintains the healthiest, strongest, leanest physique for you through habits that feel sustainable and that takes time right.

Philip Pape: 30:13

Fat loss doesn't have an expiration date. There's no rush, except the artificial one that we create for ourselves. So I want you to take a breath, trust the process, focus on non-zero days being consistent. Don't try to be perfect. Know that with patience, you will reach your goals. Probably not as quickly as you hoped, but much more permanently than you may have thought possible. All right, if you want to build this patience, muscle this skill, with some guidance and support, that will accelerate the process, which sounds ironic since I just talked about patience, but there are accelerators in this world.

Philip Pape: 30:51

I invite you to join us in Wits and Weights Physique University, where we will help you develop an approach that aligns with the realities of fat loss. It's going to provide accountability when your patience is tested. That's when you need the support, not when things are going well, and then we can help you celebrate all these forms of progress. Go to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to learn more. Join. Get the two-week free trial, free first challenge. Join a community of action takers who are in it for the long haul getting those results. Your transformation awaits witsandweightscom slash physique. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that patience isn't just waiting for results. It's building the foundation that makes those results permanent. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights podcast. I'll talk to you next time.