How Melanie Dropped From 24% to 16% Body Fat (and Still Got Stronger) | Ep 295

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Can you build muscle while losing fat, or is it just a myth? What if shifting your focus from aesthetics to performance is the missing piece?

I sit down with my client Melanie, who transformed her body by aligning her training, nutrition, and mindset. She dropped from over 24% to 16% body fat while gaining over three pounds of muscle, without giving up her daily treat!

Today, you’ll learn all about:

03:20 - The power of accountability in staying consistent
05:05 - Why she prefers working with a coach
07:38 - The mindset shift from aesthetics to performance
09:17 - How minor nutritional tweaks accelerated fat loss
11:06 - The impact of sprinting on her physique
16:29 - Strength gains while losing fat
24:53 - Why trusting the process is key
31:51 - How a single daily treat helped her stay on track
42:50 - The power of meal prepping and planning for success
47:44 - Outro

How Melanie Dropped From 24% to 16% Body Fat While Getting Stronger

If you’ve ever wondered whether it’s possible to lose fat while gaining muscle and getting stronger, Melanie’s story proves that it is. She dropped from 24% to 16% body fat, gained over three pounds of muscle, and improved her lifts—all while maintaining a sustainable approach to training and nutrition. Here’s how she did it.

Shifting From Aesthetics to Performance

When Melanie started, her primary goal was aesthetics—losing body fat and achieving a leaner physique. But as she progressed, she realized that focusing on strength and performance not only helped her stay motivated but also contributed to her fat loss. By setting strength goals, she kept pushing herself in the gym, leading to muscle growth and a more sculpted body over time.

Key Takeaway:

• Focusing solely on fat loss can be frustrating. Strength and performance goals provide tangible progress markers that keep you motivated.

Accountability and Coaching

Melanie had worked with a coach before, but after a break due to personal circumstances, she found herself struggling to regain consistency. Seeking accountability, she worked with me to develop a structured, evidence-based plan that aligned her training and nutrition. She trusted the process, made small adjustments along the way, and stayed the course even when progress felt slow.

Why Coaching Helped:

• Removed decision fatigue—she didn’t have to guess about macros, deficits, or meal timing.

• Provided accountability, keeping her committed to the plan.

• Helped her adjust strategies based on how her body responded.

Key Strategies That Led to Success

1. Nutrition Adjustments: High Protein, High Fiber

One of the first major shifts Melanie made was increasing her protein intake. As she got leaner, we upped her protein to preserve muscle mass and optimize body composition. She also added more fiber, which helped with digestion, satiety, and overall gut health.

Why It Worked:

• Protein keeps you fuller, supports muscle retention, and has a high thermic effect.

• Fiber helps regulate digestion and reduces bloating.

2. Experimenting with Training & Sprinting

Instead of cutting more calories when her fat loss slowed, we introduced sprinting to increase her energy expenditure without excessive dieting. The result? A noticeable increase in leanness without sacrificing muscle.

Why It Worked:

• Sprinting is an efficient way to burn fat and improve metabolic health.

• It allowed her to keep food intake higher while still progressing.

3. Sustainable Nutrition: The Power of Flexibility

Melanie was consistent with her diet but also enjoyed small treats. She had one Ferrero Rocher chocolate every day—her "non-negotiable." This flexible approach helped her stick to the plan without feeling restricted.

Why It Worked:

• Sustainability matters more than perfection.

• Allowing small treats prevents cravings and bingeing.

Trusting the Process

Even with a solid plan, there were moments of doubt. Melanie sometimes felt frustrated when the scale wasn’t moving as expected or when changes weren’t immediately visible. However, she kept coming back to a fundamental truth—fat loss takes time, but it will happen with consistency.

Key Mindset Shifts

• Progress isn’t always linear—fluctuations happen.

• Every meal is a fresh start; one indulgence doesn’t derail the plan.

• Trust the science—energy balance always wins.

What’s Next for Melanie?

Now that she’s hit her fat loss goals, Melanie is focusing on getting stronger while maintaining her results. She’s considering a potential muscle-building phase in the future but, for now, is prioritizing strength progress and enjoying her maintenance phase.

Takeaways for Your Own Fat Loss Journey

1. Strength Training is Key – Lifting weights while losing fat helps maintain (or even gain) muscle, improving your physique.

2. Nutrition Should Be Structured but Flexible – Hit your macros, but allow room for foods you enjoy.

3. Fat Loss Takes Time – Impatience is the biggest killer of progress. Trust the process and stay consistent.

4. You Can’t Outwork a Bad Diet – Proper nutrition makes all the difference.

5. Sprinting Can Be a Game-Changer – It’s a simple, effective way to burn fat without cutting more calories.

If you're struggling to lose fat while maintaining strength, take a page from Melanie’s playbook: align your training, nutrition, and mindset for sustainable, long-term results.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been consistently lifting weights and monitoring your diet, but you're still not seeing the body composition changes that you want and you're starting to question is it even possible to lose fat while maintaining or building muscle? This episode is for you. Today, I'm talking with Melanie, who transformed her physique by shifting focus from aesthetics to performance and getting stronger, dropping from over 24% to just 16% body fat, while actually gaining over 3 pounds of muscle and seeing her lifts go up. You'll discover what helped her achieve these results and the two most important factors of success in aligning your training, nutrition and mindset to achieve any physique goal. Achieve any physique goal. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:55

I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today I've invited on one of my amazing clients, Melanie, to talk about her results and how she got there Now. Melanie came to me initially with aesthetic goals. She had quite a bit of experience in the past with different programs and even some success, and she wanted some guidance and accountability. Together, we started shifting her focus from not only aesthetics but also strength and performance, and she dropped around eight and a half percent body fat. She'd simultaneously built three pounds of muscle at a fairly, I'll say light body weight, and we'll get into some of the numbers and she developed a sustainable approach that keeps delivering results, and more to come. So today you're going to learn how she did this, how you can apply these lessons to your own journey, some of the challenges along the way.

Philip Pape: 1:39

Melanie, I thank you so much for joining me today, Hello. So let's start with some background, because I think that's where people want to understand, like, what were you doing before and then what happened throughout this process? Just to share a little bit about yourself what led you to seek out coaching, Because I know you've worked with a coach before, somebody who I know quite well. Feel free to share as much as you want about that.

Melanie: 2:02

Okay, after the birth of my second kid in 2014, I kind of realized my body wasn't springing back as it used to. So I sought out some nutritional guidance from Paul Salter, who you just mentioned, and I worked for him for gosh, almost eight years. He took me through a bunch of deficits and a bunch of maintenance cycles and everything, and then about two years ago I had kind of stopped with him because I had a family medical issue that I had to attend to overseas and when that happened, basically all nutrition and all fitness went out the window because it was for an extended period of time. When I got back stateside I was really struggling with being consistent with anything, not because I didn't know how to, but I think personally, for me, accountability is kind of what at least gets me started, and then I can you know, once I've kind of seen the results, I can maintain it for the most part, and I think that's where I was struggling. Paul had recommended you, and so that's how we connected.

Philip Pape: 3:13

Yeah. So for folks who follow the show for a while, paul's actually been on twice. I was on his show and he he definitely has his careers evolved. He went into hypnotherapy and I think he works with golf experts and professionals now Unless you're a golfer, but good guy. And what's really cool is that you know I know there's different coaches at different levels and you already had coming in, I can tell like a deep knowledge of you, know the basics for sure, like macros and how that works, but even some more advanced techniques, as well as a pretty high level of awareness on some things like your connection with food, your own body and how it responds. And yet there's still more to learn. Right, there's always more to learn.

Melanie: 3:54

Yes.

Philip Pape: 3:54

And so when you say accountability gets you started and then you're able to maintain, I guess people want to know does that mean I need to work with a coach for eight years or for 20 years or for all my life? What's the value of this Like? What's going on there? They want to know.

Melanie: 4:09

So the reason I worked with Paul for so long was because he was amazing. Number one, number two, I kind of wanted to push my body as far as it could go because I had a lot of time, back then at least, and so if I wanted to do a maintenance cycle and then I wanted to do a deficit and I didn't want to do the deficit on my own, because it's one of those things where I just want to outsource it to someone else I didn't want to have to have the mental, do the mental work of thinking what should my macros be? How long should I do this for? Because I had the privilege and luxury of working with a professional and being able to afford one. So that's kind of why we did it that way, and I'm one of those weirdos that actually likes being in a deficit.

Melanie: 4:52

It's something about just knowing that. That's what it is and I don't have to tweak anything. Somebody is telling me exactly what to do. My brain is now freed up to have to make decisions about other things. So I think that's where working with a coach for me comes into play. Even when I was working with you right, it was I just trusted you a hundred percent, whatever you said to do, except maybe give up that one chocolate a day. I was like, okay, fine, Because at the end of the day everything is almost reversible, right, like if it didn't work out we could tweak it to see how my body would respond to something. It's it's. It was a learning process for the both of us, cause it was the first time you were working with me to see how my body would respond to what we had kind of programmed, if you will.

Philip Pape: 5:39

You said so much good stuff in there. Seriously, and I know it's just like natural to you no big deal, but like for sure, having a professional to create a plan is helpful, because sometimes we say, well, just just listen to Phil's podcast and you'll learn all about. Uh, you know the macros and what rate of fat loss to go at it, whatever. But even that can be overwhelming because you're like for me, I have very specific goals and as specific body weight and specific whatever training plan, what do I do? And so it isn't just information, it's information crafted and structured and tailored to you, the liking being a deficit. Well, let's get back to that one. Let's pin that one for a second, cause that'll be interesting, and I know I like working with you, melody, cause you've got you've got some cool no-transcript.

Philip Pape: 6:34

It's to seek someone who is going to work with you, to learn with you, to be humble, hopefully somewhat humble where they need to be, and then maybe more assertive where they're not they don't need to be, and then maybe more assertive where they're not they don't need to be. And things like you know how you were able to build muscle even at a fairly lean body weight. You know leanness, body composition as well as lean weight and still able to build muscle, but because the numbers don't move as much magnitude wise for you, like compared to a 300 pound dude. You know it's like how do we tease out what exactly is happening? And then also the fact that you want your Ferrero Rocher. Let's just admit like I was like okay, I'm not going to push that one, don't worry. Flexible diet, that's what we're here for. So yeah, I just want to rephrase everything I just heard you say, which I think is valuable as far as liking being a deficit.

Melanie: 7:26

Tell us more about that. I think that's mostly a control thing. Right, it's like it's. It's knowing that I can push my body to somewhat of an extreme obviously we're not doing bodybuilder type deficits or whatever right, but for me that's somewhat of an extreme compared to my maintenance and knowing that I can do it. So there's some sort of control that goes in there that I enjoy, that I can do it. So there's some sort of control that goes in there that I enjoy.

Melanie: 7:50

When you're in maintenance there's a little bit more leeway of kind of going off your macros a little bit, right, like if your macro was, I don't know, like 70 grams of carbs or whatever, if you're in maintenance, it's not that big of a deal if you even for a week, go over it.

Melanie: 8:01

Right, because you're in maintenance and it's life and you're supposed to be able to enjoy life when you're in a deficit. Theoretically you shouldn't be in a deficit for a prolonged period of time. So there is more of a hey if you want to really maximize your results in this short period of time and short because it's completely relative to each person you will get the results you get based on how well you adhere to your prescribed program, if that makes sense. So there is a, and I kind of enjoy just knowing hey, for me it's kind of this control thing. And then the aesthetics part of it. You do see the weight shed and you do see your body recomp happening, and that kind of just motivates you to kind of keep on track as well. So there's, you know, there's two aspects to it, for me at least.

Philip Pape: 8:54

Yeah, and speaking of the physique, you know your body was fairly sensitive, I think, to like glycogen and carb swings right, where, like you know, you can sometimes get some bloating and fluid retention, sometimes not, and I think you even started to get used to when and why that would happen. As far as the control, I totally understand that. I think people need to understand I've said this before fat loss is not a joy ride. It's not fun in the sun. It is a goal, it's a change, it's a little bit of discomfort and you're forcing your body to release energy and the question is how fast and hard and long do you do that for? And that's the sustainability piece. It's not like when people say, well, you can do it without hunger and you can do it without whatever. No, you're going to have some hunger, right, and you have to control something. So when you said control, I thought of okay, the structure that we put in place here is not just the rate, but also the fact that you have certain amounts that you can eat, like there literally is a physical amount of stuff you need to eat and the more volume type foods you can have, the more like physical volume you can eat, but still the calories are limited. And you said something in one of your check-ins. I have a whole bunch of quotes from you here, so I'll see if I drop them in One you said I can still have fun and eat with other people and be mindful about portion sizes. Super simple, but literally that is the thing that you're restricting. You're not restricting what you eat and having fun, right?

Philip Pape: 10:16

Tell us about some of the experiments we tried. I know you didn't necessarily do everything I suggested. I don't mean it like that. I mean it like sometimes I said, hey, this is something we could try if you want. Like I would give you the option, such as you know what we would like go higher protein when the calories were getting lean. Or I know, more recently we talked about sprinting. But is there any particular experiment that comes to mind that you wanted to bring up?

Melanie: 10:39

So I think there's two things, everything that you mentioned. There's two things that I clicked with that I thought worked for me. There were other things, obviously, but those were the ones that resonated for me, maybe three actually adding fiber to my diet I forgot to mention that when we actually started working together, I was coming off, basically, like I mentioned, off that medical issue with my family. I was not eating at that point in time and it was a struggle for me to even get calories in, and so then you kind of had me just get to maintenance before we even went into a deficit obviously, and that was a struggle at the very beginning. Then obviously your body gets used to it and blah, blah, blah. But cut to me, being 47 now I think, and as you get older, I think, fiber becomes much, much more important, and that was something that was just not on my radar and so you asked me to introduce fiber. That was super helpful just in terms of bloating to some degree, that I noticed. One of the other things that we also strategized with was increasing protein, and when we started doing that, I noticed just a very perceptible drop increase in leanness. It was a visual, um, visual increase in leanness. For me, when we added protein. And then the other thing that actually kick-started it was when we added protein.

Melanie: 12:03

And then the other thing that actually kickstarted it was when we introduced sprinting.

Melanie: 12:08

Yeah, and that was towards the tail end, and one of the reasons we did that is because we didn't really want to take away calories, because I was already in such a very low I was already at low numbers and I probably would have become super cranky if we had taken it even lower. So we looked at other ways of managing the balance of energy expenditure and intake and one of those things was well, let's increase the energy expenditure and we just did sprinting, and that I mean after a week or so of it. It feels good. Obviously, the endorphins are firing and you feel like a youth again. You're like I can sprint, I can do this, but it also does kickstart that leanness again. So those were three of the strategies that you had mentioned that really clicked for me and I'm still doing the fiber thing, obviously, and I'm still doing the protein thing. I'm not doing the sprinting as often anymore, maybe like once a week, just for fun at this point, just because it's like a fun thing to do now.

Philip Pape: 13:02

Yeah, yeah, I'm sprinting more as well. I'm right with you and I'm telling more and more people about it. There's going to be an episode coming up about sprinting which actually might have preceded this one by the time this comes out. So, yeah, I mean for fat loss, I almost wish we had done it even earlier, just to see what would happen. And this is again the part about like not every coach knows everything and we're always learning and your coach should be learning.

Philip Pape: 13:23

But the protein is an interesting one because, again, because you're fairly lean, operating on low calories, low body weight, those small changes in macros can make a big difference and we don't always know why. I can go through the science of the million things that protein does and still we don't always know 100% why. For you, for Melanie, it causes a little bit of leanness. It could be that you were just carrying a little bit less fluid from glycogen, or it could have been that you literally were burning a little more calories because of the thermic effect of food. You never know. The fiber let me tell you, melanie, lately, these carnivore episodes I put out the amount of trolls you get on YouTube about how amazing carnivore is and you don't need fiber to survive and all I want to say is like there's a lot of things you don't need to survive, but let me tell you how beneficial these are and I fear for their gut, like years down the line, by not having any fiber at all.

Melanie: 14:13

Well, I mean, on that note, you know, being the age I am, I had to get my colonoscopy this year. I think we had yeah, it was while I was working with you. Obviously, and the thing that the Klonos the guy that does it stresses, he's like he just said, the majority of Americans do not get nearly as much fiber as they should. So you can either supplement I mean he was mentioning the standard fiber in the orange canister that you get at the grocery stores or whatever but you know, to each their own, like you had mentioned, you have. You actually have a list in all the documentation that you give us. You know a wealth of information. You have a list of fiber rich foods. You don't have to take a supplement. You can if you want to, but you can also get it from fruits and veggies and all that stuff is just playing around and seeing how it works for you.

Philip Pape: 15:02

Yeah, yeah, and people make excuses with that stuff and I'm like an apple has like five grams of fiber. So if you need 10 grams of fiber, two apples like we'll get you. It's not a big deal, it's just so people are. People are such a dearth of fruit and nutritious foods and that it's a game changer. So all right, so really cool. We're kind of getting into the weeds, but they're good weeds to get into. I do want to know that. I do want to help people understand. When you came to me with the, I'll say, aesthetics goal, which we all have, that and, frankly, the vast majority of people I work with that's one of their goals. Right, it's not the only goal necessarily, but you also did shift toward this focus on strength and performance and had some strength progress, even in fat loss. That, if I'm recalling our data right. Yeah, tell us about that. Like the mindset shift and then also the process.

Melanie: 15:47

So initially, like you mentioned, I came with a set of goals, just because I was probably half a size bigger than I usually am, so my clothes were getting snug and it was just affecting my mental state of you know, I feel like I'm doing everything right, but it's not. You know, it's not working. So I should probably reach out to an expert slash professional again to kind of just get on the right track. And then kind of, when we got into it just because for me, as you mentioned, it wasn't necessarily that I had a weight goal right, it was more what I looked like that I wanted to achieve, because it was a slower process for me, uh that I would imagine a lot of people uh, we kind of shifted to.

Melanie: 16:31

Well, let's, let's look at some other goals. Let's see if we can reach a number on our deadlift or on our squat or whatever. And the magic of it is, as you get stronger, you build more muscle, which builds more fat, which helps you achieve your aesthetic goal anyway. But it's just shifting your mind to it's a more achievable goal in a shorter amount of time than maybe the aesthetic goal that you're looking for. So it's these small wins along the way that keep you motivated and keep you in the game, because you're just achieving these small wins and not you can't always focus on the big prize right at the beginning. You kind of have to achieve these small goals to get to that big prize. And it was just a way of reframing hey, what can we do and what can we achieve in the next two weeks, Kind of a thing.

Philip Pape: 17:19

Yeah, I'll put it this way Even if it weren't getting you a meaningful change in that short period, the fact that you had something to focus on that was moving forward, like. Like that's what people need to find for themselves, whether that's their step count or their protein or their lifts. The nice thing about training is you could always make progress. It doesn't mean the weight on the bar is always going up for a lift, for the max rep, but something should always be moving and then that's a great sign.

Philip Pape: 17:43

Now in fat loss, honestly, Melanie, I know we've gone back and forth on the numbers, but people don't often build muscle at all during fat loss and it's hard to say how much of your lean mass was muscle. But out of the roughly you drop 8.5% of body fat and of the pounds that you dropped, you gained about a third of that value as muscle, which is pretty nice ratio. So in other words, it's a one to four ratio of muscle to fat, but in a fat loss phase, which usually you're trying to count the ratio when you're gaining. Anyway, where I'm going with this is like, how did this performance focused approach feel for you as it went forward Like how are you going to carry that forward into the future? Has it changed your approach at all, or what are your thoughts around that?

Melanie: 18:26

No, I mean, I'm still continuing. I still have a goal of certain numbers to reach on some of the big lifts, and so you know every mess of cycle because I follow a program that's broken down into mess of cycles I'm kind of increasing my one rep max because I am still getting stronger, and even more so now that I'm in a maintenance phase, right, so my body has the energy to kind of push through it even more. So that's always going to be a goal. It's like how many pull-ups can I do? How many, you know, because you always still want to be fit, I'm still young, and so it's one of those things where I'm happy, where I am aesthetically. So now I've got another, not necessarily a goal, but I just want to keep on moving the needle, at whatever rate that means for me.

Philip Pape: 19:13

Yeah, and I'm going to put you on the spot. Like are you open to building and gaining, to build muscle.

Melanie: 19:18

So that one is tricky. Just because I I feel like when I am actually, when I am actually um over my maintenance weight, if you will, because I am building, I feel more sluggish. Personally I feel more sluggish, which means then when I'm not as quick on the weights I can't pull my body weight up doing pull-ups. But I haven't actually worked with a coach in a building phase. So who knows what that would look like? And I know, in order to show that muscle at least from what I've read and you can correct me if I'm wrong you kind of have to build. You have to build muscle in order to kind of shape it right. So Paul was very unsuccessful whenever he broached that subject up with me. You might have better luck down the road, but right now I kind of like where I am.

Philip Pape: 20:06

And look, there's no right or wrong answer.

Philip Pape: 20:08

Honestly, people would love to be able to lose fat and get to some level where they're just, you know, cool, they're cool with it, they're happy and you can still get a lot of progress.

Philip Pape: 20:17

The fact that you built muscle while losing means you have some early, like novice type response still in you to be able to keep gaining muscle at definitely a maintenance and there's always like different trade-offs, like you could always go to a very lean gain. If you're not the type that's like I, have to put on all this muscle and then cut it off. You know cause a lot of us are and a lot of my clients get into the habit of cycling every year more aggressively. But if you're like not comfortable adding 10 more pounds of scale weight because of that's a whole mental thing there's nothing wrong with being at like a little above maintenance and just drifting kind of up, since your body is very responsive, until you hit a wall. Then, when you hit the wall, then you say, okay, now maybe I have to ascertain like one more cut and then a really aggressive bulk for a while and then back to a cut. You know those kinds of long term strategies.

Melanie: 21:06

So do you take clients immediately from a deficit to a build, or do you prefer to have them stay in maintenance for a bit?

Philip Pape: 21:14

It depends on their goals. You know what I mean. Like it depends on their goals, I give gentle nudge to go into a bulk, because if you're working with me and paying for me, I'm not going to say it's easy to be at maintenance, but like we've done that, now I want to show you the whole different side of it, all these new challenges that people just don't know, like people watching this and listening. I know you want to lose weight. I know you want to lose fat, but there's something magical about building as well. That's its own thing, but that's in the future. It's all part of your plan, melanie, of like this never ends, the process never ends. You can do it however you want. You know, yeah, it's life.

Melanie: 21:47

Well, yeah, and it really shouldn't, right? I mean, because your body is constantly changing, so what works for me, or what I think works for me this year, may not work for me next year. You know, and so you do. You can't just you can't always stick with the same plan because it worked for you in the past, because your body has now changed. You've gotten, you know for me. I've gotten older, older, my hormones have changed. My body now might be sensitive to something that I used to eat or whatever, and so I can't, you know things like that.

Philip Pape: 22:17

A hundred percent. That's a really important point, especially we're both in our forties and I will say even in a two-year period. Because of how your body changes, deliberately and unintentionally, as well as life situation changes, you'll find that the system and the process of experimenting on yourself and getting data you want to keep doing that because, again, the next phase isn't going to operate like the last. So you need to early on understand what's happening so that you could interject and it might be better, it might be worse, it's just different. You know it doesn't matter. Like I wonder about the mindset stuff too, because again, I know you worked with Paul. Paul is a huge, like behavioral change guy. He's very much in a mindset motion. Is there any anything different now than when we started that you found about this process from a mental perspective, like as you were checking in, as you were thinking about that new year's party and whether or not your physique was changing and so on.

Melanie: 23:09

It's one of those things. Just because I had worked with someone for so long, my mind was in the right place. That doesn't mean it wasn't hard at times, and you are well aware of that. When we had our check-ins right, like you mentioned, I would always write I'm frustrated that either the scale weight's not moving or I'm frustrated that I'm not losing as inches as fast as I would like. But I am trusting the process because, at the end of the day, every single time that I was in a deficit in the past, as long as I trusted the process, I would get there.

Melanie: 23:45

It just doesn't happen as fast as anybody likes. Right, you wanna like immediately. It's kind of like you see those memes online, right? Somebody just I worked out today and then they're looking at their abs in the mirror and it's what they look like. You don't get the results you want immediately, so it's just staying the course, and I think maybe part of what happens for people is you get frustrated and you just kind of give up, not saying that that hasn't happened to me before, and then you just kind of either, you know, not work out for a week or just go overboard on the eating for a week, and that's also fine, as long as you kind of come back to the process.

Melanie: 24:23

Ideally, you know it's just the sooner you come back to the process, the less of that little blip occurs. Because as long as you trust the process and you stick with it, you're going to get the results. It's just inevitable. It's how well you adhere to the process. But you can have F-ups along the way, right? I mean, we're all human, nobody's a robot. So it's just as long as you're consistently coming back to where you need to be or where you want to be, that's the key.

Philip Pape: 24:55

It's a great way to put it. I mean, I think of like a rubber band getting stretched where it always comes back to where it needs to be. Or I think Gary V posted an image on Instagram the other day that had five glasses of water and it said this is what people think consistency is, and it's like every glass is full. And then here's what it really is. It's like full, almost empty, halfway almost empty, and it's like but there's always a little water in there and like that's the thing is. Like you've always got a little water in your glass and you kind of you come back to that and some days are full and some days are not. And yeah, your check-in comments were along those lines, which I think is healthy. I think people need to understand that. Like you said, I'm following the process, but, man, I do not like feeling this flubby right now. Like that's one of your I hope you don't mind me sharing this but like I think they're good because I would see those and as a coach at initially, I'm like, oh, I, you know, I take it personally when a client feels discouraged in any sense, but also, at the same time, it's human. So when you say these things. It's just an acknowledgement of reality.

Philip Pape: 25:51

You had another one about a New Year's party. You said I intentionally ate what was there. I also knew I wasn't really going overboard and my body would adjust back in a few days, as it did shrug emoji. So again you were like confident, the process would work. Now, not everyone's that confident and I suspect newer folks and this is where I'm going to ask for your advice for somebody listening, somebody who is like a month into the process or two months in. They don't have the long history you do. I've seen this as well where a small fraction of clients I lose them because they're impatient and they're like I'm just frustrated, nothing's happening, I'm going to quit, and it's like I tried to reel them back. Not everybody can be saved in that sense, let's just put it that way. What would you say to somebody in advance so that when they have those doubts, what can they do?

Melanie: 26:37

I mean it's normal, right. It's very frustrating. It's hard to just keep on saying trust the process when you can't give them a definite date, slash time as to when the process for them is going to be achieved. It's just, hey, I mean it's scientifically, it's just going to happen. There's just no way that it's not. The only variable right now is the amount of time it's going to take you to get there.

Melanie: 27:03

And then also, alluding to that, is the very beginning of this whole journey for me, the nutrition aspect of it, when I would kind of fall off of my prescribed plan, if you will, it was. I read this once. It's like, you know, you get a hole in one tire, I would puncture all four tires. I'd be like, well, I went off plan, so I'm just going to go balls to the wall and I'm just going to eat everything in sight. And that took me a couple of years to go.

Melanie: 27:30

Hey, we don't need to do that, right? Okay, you ate a cookie, you ate two, three cookies. Who cares? That was one meal. Every meal is your starting point and every meal can be a starting point, not to say that you can't also go balls to the wall for one day, two days, three days, like I said, as long as you get back to it and you're consistent, like you said, some days you're going to be 100%, some days you're going to be 50%, 40%, the average, it's law of averages, it's all going to work out eventually. The only delta is going to be the time taken to get there.

Philip Pape: 28:01

Yeah, very well said. I'm not going to add to that because that was good. Yeah, no, people listen. Listen to that. That is exactly what it is what did come to mind there, though there's something else, a side tangent that I was thinking of having to do with. Oh, I guess you know, when you mentioned being in a deficit and stuff like that, I'm such a rational, logical person often, and you know so I will use logical, I will use logic to try to convince people sometimes. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but the logical side of that is, if you over consume by you know, a thousand calories one day, but you're under by a thousand the rest of the week, you're at maintenance, right?

Melanie: 28:39

Exactly, but that's. I think that that can be hard for some people who are already in a deficit, because they're already like just going to keep at those calories and now it's that mental game of, well, you're going to take away more even though I may have gone over, but it's that like, well, that was the baseline for me, and now it's less, even if it's for four days, so I can see where that would be a struggle for people. I think that would be a struggle for me. You literally I mean you mentioned just very briefly, but one of the things that I held steadfast my entire deficit journey with you was my one for error share, and you even suggested at the very end, when we were kind of tapering off, you suggested, hey, let's see what would happen if we got rid of that for share and maybe had another carb alternative that didn't have as many fat grams in it, because we were really playing around with numbers for me and I was just like, no, I don't want to, that's all good, that's right.

Philip Pape: 29:39

I like to give options, right, like sometimes you want your coach to just tell you what to do. But seriously, sometimes you need options. And I'm not going to say it's like a child, but that did come to mind right, because when you have a kid like I remember when our kids are little, it'd be like give them two options, exactly, and it's cool, because we are humans and we do get paralyzed by indecision sometimes. But also, if you are too restrictive and say like this is the only way, then people can push back if they really want to have their chocolate, that's cool. You're an adult, you know.

Melanie: 30:04

Well, I think, logically for me, I knew that that was going to do, that was going to do, that was going to shift stuff. I knew it. Like it makes sense Logically, you're consuming less fat grams. Obviously it's going to make a shift, but for me it was also at that time. Hey, I feel like this is a way for me to kind of be more consistent with the plan, because I'm getting my treat, and so my concern was well, if I drop it, am I going to feel like I'm being restricted?

Melanie: 30:30

Because throughout my, our entire deficit journey I didn't feel restricted, and that generally is the case with me. I don't feel restricted. But if I felt at that time, if we had just taken away that chocolate, I would have felt like, oh, this is no fun.

Philip Pape: 30:44

It was the one thing. Yeah, it was like a symbol of freedom.

Melanie: 30:47

Of normalcy. Yes, Like this is normal. I'm still eating a chocolate. This is not a deficit.

Philip Pape: 30:51

Yeah, no for sure. And people listening, you guys all know what your we call them non-negotiables are. Now, not everything can be a non-negotiable. If your non-negotiable is three glasses of wine every night, we're going to have a discussion about that non-negotiable. But yeah, perfectly wrong.

Philip Pape: 31:06

It's funny because I'm thinking about how I'm going to go into fat loss phase in like two weeks myself and all the things I'm going to cut out and that's where your brain goes. But really the brain has to go to like you know, what am I keeping in that I enjoy, and then I'm going to make everything else kind of scale around it to still be successful with fat loss. And for me that's probably ice cream or something. But you don't have options today. With technology, with food science, with ninja creamies, you know there's all sorts of ways to get creative about this. All right, so what a classic table topic style question, like if you can go back and tell yourself something that you didn't know back then and by back then I mean either when we started or it could even be way back when. Uh, what would you tell your younger self?

Melanie: 31:47

I mean what I? It's basically just trust the process and be consistent, like those are the two things that I think will really factor into somebody having success with achieving their goals. And it's really hard to trust the process and I get that because for some people that the visual differences, or even the quantifiable differences, aren't immediate and it may take a month or two or three, like it, especially if you don't have a, you're not working with large numbers, right? It's not like you want to drop 40 pounds, you may want to drop five pounds, and sometimes that smaller number is the harder number, right, because it just is. And so trust the process that was something that I had struggles with when I first started. And then just be consistent, right, because science is not doesn't lie Like, the more consistent you are, just the faster you'll see your results. So, truly, you hold, you hold how fast you're going to achieve your goals.

Melanie: 32:53

But, that being said, also, you might discover things with your body that you weren't expecting, right. Maybe your body isn't responding to something that you planned out for, and then you're just going to have to adapt and tweak. And that's where working with somebody like you comes into play, because something that works for me that you've prescribed may not work for somebody else that you've prescribed may not work for somebody else that you've prescribed, but because you've worked with so many people, you kind of know all these little tricks to throw out there for people to try, and that's the value that comes from hiring someone to work with you, and they're working with you. You're not working for them, they're not working for you. Y'all are on this journey together, and I think that's one of the things that people also don't necessarily understand. Like you're in it as much as I'm in it on my journey right, because it's you're making the plan and I'm following it, but we both have input in what's happening too.

Philip Pape: 33:49

Oh yeah, and I want to make sure that plan adapts with you in real time. And it's funny you mentioned you talked about experimentation and learning about your body and all that. I will have clients that early on will say, hey, this thing kind of is not working, so I tested by doing this and I'm all for testing, trust me, I am. The accelerator you get, I think, with a coach is they can say don't do that again, like that test you just did. It's not going to work, but it's cool that you tried it.

Philip Pape: 34:15

I'm all for that, but like if you were on your own, you would try it and maybe go a long time not understanding why it did or didn't work. You know that that's what comes to mind. For me is like no, no, no, no want to experiment.

Melanie: 34:28

I mean, there's so much more wealth of knowledge that you have with working with so many people, and that's something that you know me I'm not going to have, even though, like you've mentioned, I've done this for so long, but I've only done this for so long, with me and my body's changing every year, so it's almost like I'm a different person every year. So, like we mentioned, what worked last year may not work for me, may not work as well for me this year.

Philip Pape: 34:50

For sure, and every person at every time is a unique starting point, so you've got to be willing to like, open your eyes to what the data is telling you.

Speaker 3: 35:01

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 35:41

When you mentioned trust the process. I guess one obvious question then would be or philosophical question almost is when someone said well, what is the process? What do you mean by that? Like is it? You know what I mean, and I know that's kind of a loaded question, but if somebody has that confusion, what would you say?

Melanie: 35:56

I mean, ultimately it just boils down to if you eat less than your expenditure, you are just going to lose weight. But that's frustrating sometimes because you feel like you're eating so much less than you're putting out. So why isn't the fat loss happening faster? And it just won't? Because your body is going to be like hey, I'm not going to let go of this so quickly because I don't know when we're going to get food again. I mean, it's one of those things, right? Uh? But back when in my twenties, I was like well, as long as I don't eat, I'm going to. I'm not, I'm going to lose weight, and you, that's just.

Melanie: 36:25

Life's too short to not enjoy eating. There is so much good food out there, man. So as long as you are just level-headed and approach everything in moderation and just trust, trust the process, right, it's hey, I'm, I'm getting all the nutrients in, I'm getting my fiber in, I'm getting my carbs, my fat, my protein in and everything. And you have the luxury of playing around with what you want to eat, right, like, if you want to have a big juicy steak one day, go for it. Once again, it's a one day thing, right. The next day you can go back to your thing. Your body adapts so well at any age. Like it's not like it adapts so well at any age. It just may take a little bit longer as you get older, and that's normal, but it will adapt.

Philip Pape: 37:21

Yeah, no, I love it. You talked about energy balance. It's a fact, no-transcript, at least have like grasped that concept. And then it's like well, what is that for you? Because it's probably not your hormones, it's probably not menopause, it's probably not any of those things, even though they have an impact. It's the fundamentals. So you mentioned moderation, nutrients, balance, flexibility. That sounds like a great diet, as opposed to cut out all carbs or cut out all plants.

Melanie: 38:10

Well, what I want to highlight again, because we probably just glossed over it in the beginning, I came to you off that issue where I wasn't eating and I was definitely not lean. So that does I mean I would just, I would just survive, basically, basically. But my body did not like that, obviously. And now I'm eating. I'm eating what I should be eating for my you know body type or whatever, and I'm still leaning out because now my body is used to this. So don't think that you just have to stop eating. Your body will get used to you introducing food back.

Melanie: 38:46

Remember that when you go on a deficit, you may be limiting the amount of food that you're eating, but that's not going to be forever. You can still maintain that aesthetic goal or whatever into your maintenance and increase more calories because there's a scientific approach to it and you do that so well. You know that your deficit journey is just such a short period of time of what your whole journey is going to be, so you just have to make that quote, unquote sacrifice for just a short period of time.

Philip Pape: 39:16

Yeah, it's like a competition almost with yourself. For a short period of time You're going out, you're competing, you're, you're pushing yourself, your discomfort, your, you know it's a change and then you're done and, like you said, sustaining it is important because 95% of people and I know Paul Salter, his company used to be called the 5% solution because it referred to those 5% who successfully maintain the results, versus the 95% who don't so.

Melanie: 39:40

but people are afraid, like when I stop my diet I'm just going to gain it all back, Right, Not if you do it Right, I mean, and, like I said, you can still have days where you, you know, go out and you're eating a nice dinner at a restaurant, you have that slice of cake for dessert or whatever, and then the next day, the next meal is a new meal, a new day, a new start. Just be consistent. It really sounds so repetitive, but it really is. On the days that you don't want to go to the gym, just go to the gym, start walking on the treadmill if you don't feel like lifting, because it then just starts to click. You're like well, I'm here already, might as well, just go, let's just do some free weights. Oh well, okay, well, the squat rack's empty. Well, let's.

Melanie: 40:19

The other thing to mention I was pretty, pretty repetitive. I think at one point you were like are you just copying and pasting your food choices? Because I literally eat the same thing every day for the most part. And I do that because, once again, I don't want to have to think I've got what fits my prescribed plan and I don't want to have to think I've got what fits my prescribed plan and I don't want to have to think about it changing every day, and that works for somebody like me and may not work for somebody like, say, my husband. If he were to do it, he can't do that repetitiveness, and so you, if that is something that works for you.

Melanie: 40:59

It's such an easy thing because I would have my meals prepped in the fridge ready to go. You know, I'd buy rotisserie chickens from the grocery store, just shred it, it's ready to go. I always have protein on hand and I was fine eating chicken for every meal. It didn't phase me at all. That, I think, also really helps the planning having something ready to go, Because you don't want to be, well, I'm really really hungry and I don't have anything to eat except this package of Oreos, if you will Right, and it doesn't have any protein in it or the protein that you should be having or whatever or plan to have. So as long as you're kind of have stuff ready to go, that also comes in really handy, because then it's that little click of well, I don't have it, I'm just going to eat whatever.

Philip Pape: 41:50

Now that doesn't necessarily happen. Yeah, yeah, that's. I mean meal planning, meal prepping is. It's a spectrum Like you alluded to. Like you like to eat the same thing every day, that's great. That'll serve you really well If you like it.

Philip Pape: 41:59

If you don't, you can at least have a few options prepared ahead of time for the week. Mix and match them. The point is to get rid of the decision fatigue. I like to call meal prep an act of self-care for your future self right. It's like the stressed out person who may not have food, who's going to eat the Oreos now, has the option Whether it's a snack. I mean, again, it's a spectrum.

Philip Pape: 42:19

You could have a whole pantry full of great snacks that you would go to instead of the Oreos or fruit, or you can literally have every meal prepped in Tupperware. You know whatever, whatever way you want to go with that. So it's funny because every new client who isn't educated on that coming in, I'm like, okay, here we go again, like this is. I know this is going to be a game changer for them and a lot of people see it as meal planning, meal prep, like it sounds like this chore, you know, it sounds like budgeting or whatever, and really it ends up being a lot easier, because then the whole week gets freed up from all this meal prep during the week and you're like, oh, now I see.

Melanie: 42:51

Yeah, that phrase decision fatigue is I've never. I mean, I may have heard it before, but it hasn't clicked with me. But that is exactly why I like being in a deficit, that's exactly why I like not having to think about something. After I've thought about it one time, it's like, okay, the decision has been made and I'm just going to repeat what we decided again and again, and again.

Philip Pape: 43:13

Exactly so. You've got all these great tools. I'm sure we can go on and on about all the things, but it's going to be different for everyone. You've got these results. You're still leaning out a bit. We've got the sprinting added in, which is cool, and still leaning out a bit. We've got the sprinting added in, which is cool. And I you know you're getting stronger, you're getting faster. All these, what's next Are you? You mentioned sustaining it, but I know you always have some goal.

Melanie: 43:33

I do. So, you know, I we've stepped away from working together for right now and I said I'm probably going to reach out again when I want to be in a deficit again, because it's one of those things like I said, I enjoy doing it and I especially enjoy doing it during the holiday season. It's just an incentive for me to just not go off track Once again. For me, I would say you know a lot of it is the accountability hey, I have. I'm working with someone. I'm letting my team member down if I just do whatever I want to do. And so one way for me to just know for sure that I am not going to gain the holiday 15 or holiday five or whatever it is, is like, hey, we're working together, we have a goal I'm going to do.

Melanie: 44:19

It Doesn't mean that I can't enjoy that one New Year's meal or the one Christmas meal or whatever, but it just means that every time my neighbor brings over a cookie or something, I don't always have to eat it because I'm trying to achieve something for myself. So right now, while I'm in maintenance, my goal is just to get stronger and stronger and stronger, more so than anything because I am at my aesthetic goal. My clothes are fitting the way I like them to. I like the way I look personally, so that's all good. And then when I want to go into a deficit again, I just like having somebody that's an expert, that will just do all the decision making for me, like you just said, and I just have to follow along and do that. So that's kind of my plan right now. Cool yeah, getting stronger is one of my plan right now.

Philip Pape: 45:05

Cool, yeah, getting stronger is one of my favorite goals, so you can't go wrong there and honestly, you could do some form of that forever. And uh, again, I mentioned Nikki Sims earlier but she said it's like going from skinny to strong, uh kind of deal. So you know if and when you're ready to build, definitely reach out. But again, you mentioned about losing. You know I've got plenty of clients who do it seasonally. They're like all right, it's fat loss time. Let me go talk to Phillip. You know it's just one of those and I don't take it personally because you know, whatever you need help with, I'm here to help. So let me ask you this as we wrap up is there anything you would say to somebody who's on the fence about coaching and either may not be the right fit for coaching, versus they are Like I'm really curious. I'm always curious about that. Like, is there somebody who shouldn't, other than maybe they can't afford it, or and and you know we all have different price levels, that's different. What do you think?

Melanie: 45:54

There's so much value to having a coach because there is so much information out there, it takes so long to kind of comb through the weeds. It's hard to know what's necessarily accurate. You could follow three people whom you really admire and trust and they could have three completely different opinions, and then you're just like well, I don't know what I should do for my body. Am I going to really experiment with all of these things? Having you in my back pocket, if you will, was just. It just took all the stress out of it Because, like we mentioned, you've worked with so many people, so you've kind of had the experience of knowing what works or what you can already see is not going to work for somebody.

Melanie: 46:34

You know if you're trying something, and so it's just the experience, the ability to kind of cut out all the noise, all that extra noise, and say, hey, let's try this, let's try this Somebody. If you want that person to make all the decisions for you, great. If you want it to be more collaborative, great. Like a coach is supposed to and this is what you do also kind of be a therapist to kind of figure out what that person's uh receptiveness to which coaching style like as somebody. Does somebody like being told what to do like me, and does it. Or does somebody like being more collaborative and doing it that way? So I can't stress enough just how much easier it is to achieve your goals if you work with a coach. I'm not saying you can't, it's just there's a lot of noise that gets cut out when you work with a coach.

Philip Pape: 47:23

Yeah, I like the way you put that, because if you're ever hitting your head against the wall about anything and you've already listened to all the podcasts and read all the books because I've been there where I'm like I could do this it's like, ah, something's not quite cutting it. I mean, just find that person, that expert, get a referral, talk to Melanie, talk to anybody and go for it. So, yeah, I mean thanks for sharing your story today. I know there's probably a lot more we could have gotten into. I guess I'll ask you is there anything we didn't cover? You're like, oh, I gotta, I gotta tell people about this.

Melanie: 47:51

No, I think when I remember just meal prepping, like that was such a big thing, I can't believe I almost forgot that one. But that one does really help you kind of stick with your goals and then just be patient. It's okay to be frustrated, Just know that it will happen. The delta is the time.

Philip Pape: 48:10

It will happen, absolutely it will happen. It's just a matter of time. Thank you so much, melanie, for coming on, and I'm excited to see what happens next. I am hoping we can stay in touch and maybe get you building some muscle here in the near term.

Melanie: 48:23

I'm going to keep saying it, I'm going to keep saying it, I'm going to keep saying it, I'll keep on getting stronger. So we might, we might, be there.

Philip Pape: 48:29

Exactly, exactly Once. Yeah, um yeah. If you hit that wall during maintenance, you're like, why isn't it happening?

Melanie: 48:46

It's because of the food You're going to need more food. Yeah, all right. Well, thank you so much for coming. Feel free, what's the best way to do that Email, if you want to drop it somewhere, or do you just want me to say it?

Philip Pape: 48:52

Yeah, I'll drop it in there. I'll drop it in the show notes so people can look at that.

Melanie: 48:55

Okay, all right, yeah, that's the best way.

Philip Pape: 48:57

Awesome. Thanks so much for coming on.

Melanie: 48:59

Thank you.

When You CAN "Eat More to Lose Weight" (for Fat Loss) | Ep 294

Join Wits & Weights Physique University for a custom nutrition plan incorporating these volume-maximizing strategies. Get 2 weeks free to try it out. If you're not sure it's for you, email me at philip@witsandweights.com for a personal demo!

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Can you actually "eat more to lose weight" (as the fitness influencers claim)?

Well...yes! But it has nothing to do with reverse dieting, ending "starvation mode," or fixing your metabolism.

The fundamental truth remains: you need a calorie deficit to lose weight (and thus fat). But there's a legitimate way to increase your food volume while maintaining that deficit.

Discover 5 science-based strategies to fill your plate and feel satisfied without sabotaging fat loss...because the best diet is the one that you can stick to!

Main Takeaways:

• We still live in our universe: a calorie deficit is required for fat loss

• There are legitimate, science-based strategies to eat more food volume while maintaining that deficit

• There are many ways to increase food volume, and some have bonus effects (like triggering your fullness signals)

• The most powerful results come from combining multiple volume-maximizing techniques

• Optimizing food choices is key to sustainability during a fat loss phase

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Timestamps:

0:01 - Misleading fitness influencer claims and why people might lose weight on some programs
2:57 - What "eating more" actually means for effective fat loss
4:17 - Approach #1: The macro that burns more calories
7:33 - Approach #2: A special (almost magical) type of carb
10:41 - Approach #3: Using food physics to your advantage
13:42 - Approach #4: Why physical structure matters for satiety
16:48 - Approach #5: Timing and frequency also matter
19:43 - How to create a system to "eat more" and lose fat more effortlessly

When You CAN "Eat More to Lose Weight" (For Fat Loss)

"Eat more to lose weight!" It's a catchy phrase used by fitness influencers, often tied to myths about "damaged metabolism" or "starvation mode." While some people do lose weight after increasing food intake, it’s usually not for the reasons they think.

There is a legitimate way to eat more while still losing fat—but it’s not magic. It’s science. If you’ve ever struggled with hunger or felt like you had to suffer through dieting, the key isn’t eating more calories but eating smarter within your calorie target.

Let’s break down five evidence-based ways you can increase food volume, stay satisfied, and lose fat effectively.

The Truth About Eating More and Losing Fat

Before we dive in, let’s set the record straight:

• You still need a calorie deficit to lose fat. No amount of metabolic hacks will override the laws of energy balance.

• “Eating more” refers to food volume, not calorie intake. The goal is to feel fuller on the same or fewer calories.

• Strategic food choices can make fat loss easier and more sustainable.

With that in mind, here’s how to optimize your fat loss diet so you can eat more food without eating more calories.

#1 - Increase the Thermic Effect of Food (TEF)

TEF refers to the energy your body burns digesting food. Different macronutrients require different amounts of energy to process:

• Protein: 20–30% of its calories are burned during digestion.

• Carbs: 5–10% are burned.

• Fats: Only 0–3% are burned.

This means that eating more protein naturally increases calorie expenditure, effectively creating a larger deficit while keeping food volume high.

For example, if you eat 500 calories:

• A high-protein meal (60g protein, 15g fat, 30g carbs) might leave only 415 calories available after digestion.

• A higher-fat meal (30g protein, 30g fat, 30g carbs) might leave 445 calories available.

Over time, this difference adds up, making protein an easy way to eat more while still losing fat.

#2 - Optimize Fiber Intake for More Volume

Fiber is a volume optimizer because it adds bulk to food without adding as many calories as other carbohydrates.

Most carbs provide 4 calories per gram, while fiber provides 0–2 calories per gram, depending on the type. This means that high-fiber foods fill you up more for fewer calories.

For example:

• 100 grams of white rice: ~350 calories, ~0.5g fiber

• 100 grams of brown rice: ~340 calories, ~2g fiber

The small fiber difference means brown rice is slightly more filling for the same calorie count. But scale this up across all your food choices, and you’ll see a significant impact on satiety and calorie intake.

Pro tip: If you're tracking macros in an app like MacroFactor, you might notice that fiber grams are included in your carb count, but the total calorie estimate is lower than expected. This is because fiber doesn't contribute as many digestible calories as other carbs—a fact you can use to your advantage.

#3 - Choose Foods with High Water Content

Foods high in water naturally have low calorie density, meaning you can eat more of them for fewer calories.

Consider this comparison:

• A pound of spinach has ~100 calories.

• A pound of oil has ~4,000 calories.

Clearly, weight and volume don’t always correlate with calories. By filling your plate with water-rich foods, you increase stomach fullness without excess calories.

Examples:

• Swap half your pasta for zucchini noodles – You'll double your portion size while reducing calories by 40%.

• Start meals with a vegetable soup – Studies show this can reduce overall calorie intake by 20%.

#4 - Leverage Food Structure and Texture

How food is structured affects how full you feel. Foods that require more chewing and take longer to eat increase satiety.

• Whole fruit vs. juice: A whole apple (~95 calories) takes longer to eat and digests slower than apple juice (which contains 2–3 apples’ worth of sugar).

• Air-popped popcorn vs. chips: A cup of popcorn (~30 calories) is much more voluminous than a handful of chips (~150 calories).

• Lean meats vs. processed meats: Chicken breast takes more effort to chew than ground chicken, increasing satiety.

This is why choosing whole, unprocessed foods can help you eat more without actually consuming more calories.

#5 - Optimize Meal Timing and Frequency

Meal timing can impact hunger and energy regulation during fat loss.

• Frequent, smaller meals can help regulate blood sugar and reduce cravings.

• Eating more earlier in the day aligns with your circadian rhythm, leading to better energy and appetite control.

• Spacing protein evenly throughout the day maximizes muscle retention and satiety.

If you typically eat 2 large meals and struggle with hunger, try switching to 3–4 meals with a protein focus.

The Smarter Way to Lose Fat

When you combine higher protein, fiber, water-dense foods, structured meals, and strategic timing, fat loss becomes way easier.

This isn’t about “eating more calories to lose weight.” It’s about maximizing volume, satiety, and adherence while staying in a deficit.

The best part? You don’t have to starve yourself or feel miserable. You just have to eat smarter.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Eat more to lose weight a common refrain by fitness influencers who claim your metabolism is damaged and you're in starvation mode. Sometimes people do lose weight with this advice, but not for the reasons claimed. Today, I'm revealing what science actually says about increasing your food intake during fat loss. There's a legitimate way to eat more while losing fat, but it's not what you've been told. This approach has helped my clients overcome plateaus and actually enjoy their fat loss journey instead of constantly battling hunger. If you're tired of all the confusing advice, this episode will give you the clarity you've been looking for.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're addressing one of the most persistent myths in the fitness industry this idea that you need to eat more to lose weight. You've probably heard fitness influencers claim that your metabolism is damaged, you're in starvation mode or you need to eat more to rev up your metabolic rate. When people do lose weight following this advice, it's usually because they've improved their food quality. They've started tracking more accurately. They've gotten rid of those oops weekends. They've improved their food quality, they've started tracking more accurately. They've gotten rid of those oops weekends They've added in training, not because they've fixed their metabolism or reverse dieted by increasing calories. The fundamental truth still remains that you need a calorie deficit to lose fat. However, there is a legitimate way to increase your food volume while maintaining that deficit. It is not about magically increasing calories, but it's about strategically selecting and structuring your food choices. Those choices will help you maximize volume and satiety while supporting fat loss. So today I want to share five evidence-based approaches that I use with clients that will allow you to fill your plate and to feel satisfied while continuing to lose fat effectively. And still get allique University, where we provide you with lots of things, but basically we give you a system and support to reach whatever your goal is for your body composition, and that includes a custom nutrition plan tailored by me to your unique needs and preferences. Targeted workout programs every month, monthly challenges, a supportive community, lots of courses, trainings, workshops you name it all to keep you accountable and engaged. Just go to witsandweightscom, slash physique, or click the link in the show notes to learn more. You can have a two-week free trial, so there's absolutely no risk. Go check it out.

Philip Pape: 2:57

All right, let's get into today's topic and I want to clarify what I mean when I say that you can eat more and lose weight. I am not suggesting that you can magically consume more calories and still lose fat. That is where I think the influencers mislead people with the marketing right Like you could just eat more calories, eat more food in general and you're going to lose weight somehow. What I'm talking about is increasing the physical volume of food on your plate while still maintaining the calorie deficit, the physical volume of food on your plate while still maintaining the calorie deficit. And this is an approach where you need some data-driven information, nutrition science, a systems thinking mindset to optimize your fat loss journey. It's a very creative, almost engineering type approach to structuring your meals and choosing what foods to eat. You don't just do it willy nilly. You don't just choose foods based on macros. This is not if it fits your macros. There is a little more nuance and there are a few more variables involved. So when we apply this thinking to nutrition, we are trying to do what we're trying to maximize satiety and satisfaction while keeping calories in check. So our constraint is the calories, but then this other lever is how full we feel. So I've got five approaches that I came up with for today's episode to increase your food volume but still maintain the calorie level that you need to support fat loss.

Philip Pape: 4:17

All right, so approach number one is understanding the thermic effect of food. T-e-f. This is the slice of your metabolism Like, if you ever look at it on a pie chart, and I show you the four components of metabolism. This is the one that takes about say, 10, 15% of calories a day to burn, and what I mean by burn is this is the energy your body uses to digest, absorb and process what you eat. Different macronutrients actually require different amounts of energy to process, and protein has the highest TEF or thermic effect of food, at approximately 20 to 30% of its calories being burned while you digest it. So you're really only quote unquote absorbing 70 to 80% of what's going in. Carbs burn about 5 to 10% and fats burn only about 0 to 3%. So what this means practically it's pretty cool.

Philip Pape: 5:13

If you throw this in a spreadsheet and you play around with different compositions of macros, you'll see that the more protein you consume, the fewer calories you're probably going to actually take into your body, which will look like a higher energy expenditure, if that makes sense. So, because technically it is a higher energy expenditure. But what matters is that you could either eat more and not gain as much weight, or you can eat less and lose more weight. That makes sense. So if you consume 100 calories of protein, your body's going to use 20 to 30 of those just in the digestion process, leaving 70 to 80 net calories for your body to actually use. Compare that to fat, where the same 100 calories still means almost 100 net calories. So by increasing protein intake, by slightly reducing fat or carb intake, while keeping total calories the same, you effectively create a larger calorie deficit without changing your food quantity because you're bumping up your expenditure just a bit.

Philip Pape: 6:12

So again, if I want to give you two examples so you can visualize this as you're listening, let's say we have two meals that are 500 calories. Meal one has 30 grams of protein, 30 fat and almost 30 grams of carbs. Meal two has 60 grams of protein, 15 grams of fat, so that's double the protein, half the fat and about the same amount of carbs. With meal one, after you account for this TEF, your body will net about 445 calories out of the 500. With meal two, you might net only 415 calories out of the 500, and that's a 30 calorie difference. And that's just from one meal. It's just a 30 gram difference in protein.

Philip Pape: 6:56

Imagine if you go from a fairly low amount of daily protein to a much higher amount. Many of you listening the first time you've done this, or if you haven't done it yet, chances are you're gonna double, possibly triple, the amount of protein. So it starts to add up. This is also why sometimes I suggest, during fat loss, to jack the protein up even higher and take it predominantly from fats and not as much from carbs. Of course there's more to it than calories, right? Protein is also more satiating, above and beyond this effect, and so it helps you feel full longer. So by strategically increasing protein intake, you're not just reducing the effect of calories, you're also reducing hunger.

Philip Pape: 7:33

Two for one, one of my favorites, all right approach. Number two fiber. So fiber is the volume optimizer I'm gonna call it Okay and it is unique among the carbs, among the carbohydrates, because, unlike other carbs which provide four calories per gram, fiber provides fewer usable calories, between usually zero and two, maybe up to two and a half calories per gram, depending on the type of fiber. And what makes this interesting is that most food tracking apps, like if you're using macro factor, like I recommend link in the show notes try it for free with my code Wits and Weights you will and also nutrition labels as well. They actually count the fiber as grams of carbs, but then the calories will usually be altered to match the proper amount of calories, and that is why when you try to add it all up, sometimes it doesn't match. Like if you just take your carbs carb grams times four, it may be higher calories than what is actually shown on the nutrition label, because the nutrition label is based on the true calories that are in there. Same thing when you log the food, and so this creates an opportunity when you're tracking via macros, in that when you increase your fiber intake, you increase your food volume and you quote, unquote hit your carbs before you get to the same calorie level than if you had a lower amount of fiber. Does that make sense? So even if you have the same, like, let's say, 100 grams of carbs a day, if more of those grams are fiber, you're actually gonna consume fewer calories and so that gap between the gram math and the calories will widen and you can take advantage of that. Now the even bigger benefit is that fiber adds bulk to food without adding the proportional calories. It absorbs water, it expands in your stomach, it slows digestion and all of those increase satiety. And so, again, I can give you a concrete example here.

Philip Pape: 9:26

If we talk about white rice versus brown rice, right and nothing's good or bad. This is just a difference in choices for what you're going for here. We take 100 calories of white rice compared to 100 calories of brown rice. The brown rice contains more fiber, not a huge amount more, but it contains a little bit more, and that means it will physically take up more space in your stomach and digest more slowly. Then you'll likely feel fuller from the brown rice, even though the calorie count is identical, which means you might actually choose to eat less brown rice and have fewer calories and be just as full, or eat the same amount and be even fuller. You get what I'm saying. You have a lot of levers to play with. Now imagine applying this to your entire diet. If you're always selecting higher fiber alternatives for carb sources, you will dramatically increase the volume of food while maintaining the same calorie intake. That is amazing. And, by the way, the other, the other way to think about this is even once you've hit your carbs and your protein in your food logging app and you notice the calories are short because you eat a lot of fiber. You now you have a choice. Maybe you're getting full enough where you don't need those extra calories and you'll be in an even bigger deficit, as long as it's not too big, right. Or you can now eat a little bit more food in case you're having a little bit of hunger, and this can actually offset it where you have less hunger. You see how this all makes sense, all right.

Philip Pape: 10:41

The third approach out of the five I wanted to talk about today of how to eat more and still lose fat is related to water content and food density. And if you think about, say, spinach a pound of spinach versus a pound of oil Just imagine a pound of spinach in a giant bowl versus a pound of oil in a little tiny bowl they're going to contain vastly different amounts of calories. Now, this is an extreme, I get it. You might substitute the oil for peanut butter. Same concept the spinach has like 100 calories in a pound. The oil has about 4,000 calories in a pound. So that is a 40 fold difference in nutrient density or calorie density. Right, because foods with higher water content will have lower calorie density, because the water adds weight and volume without adding calories. Take an apple, go, put an apple in macro factor or whatever your food logging app is, and see how many grams of that apple is water. It's a huge percent. It's like 80 or 90% of it is water. It's surprising. Almost You're like wow, that's actually mostly water.

Philip Pape: 11:45

And we can use this principle to again increase the volume of food on our plate. For example, adding vegetables to a pasta dish might double the volume, but only add calories by increased by like 10 to 15%. And so I'm going to give you another specific example. You take a cup of cooked pasta with 200 calories. You take a cup of zucchini noodles. That's 20 calories. So I'm not telling you to replace one with the other, although that's a great thing you could try. But you can do half and half Get half the pasta, half the noodles. You'll have the same volume that goes in your stomach, but you're going to reduce the calories by 40%. That's a nice little hack where you still have the delicious taste of the pasta and then maybe a little bit crunchiness of the zucchini, and yet it's all this giant bowl of noodles. It's great.

Philip Pape: 12:33

Consider soups, right? Studies have shown that having soup before a meal can reduce total calorie intake by up to 20% because the water content increases your stomach volume. It also triggers satiety signals. There's something to be said for having actual calories in the soup versus just, say, drinking water before the meal. And I'm a big fan of vegetable soups as well during fat loss, largely for that reason and this isn't just a theoretical approach, right, this is like a data-driven thing that you can easily measure and figure out as you are planning, as you're doing your meal plans, and you think about okay, what does the thing weigh versus how many calories it has? Simple math, right? I'll give you another cool example. You look at popcorn in the store, grocery store, and notice the back. You'll see 28 grams of popcorn is a serving. Well, 28 grams is the weight. But now look how many cups are in that 28 grams. A regular salted, simple air pop popcorn is going to have like four cups for that 28 grams. The dense sugary kettle corn might only have like one and a half. And it's kind of tricky because you're looking at it and saying, well, they're both 28 grams, yeah, but the amount you get for the 28 grams is vastly different.

Philip Pape: 13:42

Okay, approach number four here involves the food structure in the physical form of food and manipulating it. Okay, so listen up here. This is another hack for you. All, right, air. How many calories are in air Zero? Okay, air is calorie free. So if you can incorporate air into foods, it increases their volume without adding calories. In fact, this is how ice cream makers make cheap ice cream they add air to it and it gets, takes up more space for fewer calories. They can then say it's this low calorie ice cream and it's just not as good as the really rich dense stuff, right, but it has fewer calories because there's more air. This is also why a cup of air-popped popcorn has fewer calories than a cup of kettle corn, because there's more air and there's less dense material.

Philip Pape: 14:29

Segueing from the example I just gave you earlier. Now it's more than just air. The physical form of food impacts how A typical medium apple has like 95 calories, 100 calories. If you juice the apple, you're going to consume way more than one apple's worth of juice to feel satisfied, right? That's just intuitive. And then you're going to double, triple your calorie intake. Of course, it's all sugar. You're not going to get fiber, yada, yada.

Philip Pape: 14:58

On the other hand, foods that require more chewing, for example, lead to greater satiety with fewer calories, and that's partly due to the additional time that it takes to eat them. There's also some, I believe, some hormonal triggers from your saliva as well, but even the additional time that allows your body satiety signals to kick in in your stomach and your gut and so on, and so we can use this principle by choosing foods that have more complex structures, that take up more space and require more chewing. So we're thinking harder foods that have more complex structures, that take up more space and require more chewing. So we're thinking harder foods that require more chewing. I actually first heard this from Dr Eric Trexler probably a couple of years ago, and I continue to use this as a phenomenal tool.

Philip Pape: 15:38

An example would be always choosing whole fruits. You know you're not gonna drink. I hope you're not drinking fruit juice during fat loss anyway. I mean, you can and you can plan for it and put it in your macros and all that, but the whole fruits are going to take you much farther. Or even fresh fruits versus dried fruits, of course.

Philip Pape: 15:54

Um, opting for popcorn instead of chips. I think popcorn is a great hack during fat loss. It really is, because it has a lot of the characteristics of, you know, salty, crunchy snack foods, but it's significantly less calorie impact. And again, you could get light kettle corn. You don't have to go all out with just plain popcorn. If that's not your jam, you could still have something flavorful. There's so many things. You could put really nice seasoning on it, some spices and so on, making it home, whatever.

Philip Pape: 16:21

And then also picking foods that require chewing over those that don't. And one thing that comes to mind here is meat. You know, when you think of like chicken breast, it does require a lot of chewing. You know lean pork, and it has a lot of other benefits too, not least of which is all the protein. So if you can include more structurally complex foods in your diet, you can increase the volume and the satisfaction of your meals and reduce calorie intake. All right, there's a pattern here. That's why I'm doing this episode.

Philip Pape: 16:48

And then the last approach, number five is meal timing and frequency. So optimizing timing and frequency, which, during fat loss, can be really important for a number of reasons. So let's talk about what the research says. Eating the same amount of calories spread across. More frequent, smaller meals can increase satiety compared to fewer, larger meals, and that is simply related to blood sugar. That's because more frequent meals are going to maintain more stable blood sugar and again, I'm not, you know, blood sugar is not a boogeyman. Blood sugar spikes aren't the problem. None of that is what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about your hunger signals, because you have stable blood sugar and more opportunities for the body to signal fullness when you have frequent meals.

Philip Pape: 17:31

Now, these aren't always universal. Some people do a little bit better with fewer meals, space more tightly together where they have a fasting window. Right, you could say you could call it intermittent fasting, but it may not. It may just be a you know, a little bit later breakfast, a little bit earlier dinner type of deal, especially when there are lower calories. So it really depends, your body will adapt. But in general, more frequent meals that are like a modest size and not too tiny are going to give you stable blood sugar if they're balanced, you know protein, carbs, fats, and then they're going to signal fullness. So if you have like a 2000 calorie daily budget for fat loss this is just an example, I know you might have less you could eat 2000 calorie meals, or you can eat four 500 calorie meals, you know, and four or 500 calories is around the point where I would call it a meal. Less than that could get a little bit tricky here, because it might not be enough to make you feel full. Of course it depends on what. It is right. The total calories are going to be the same, but the four-meal approach keeps you in a fed state longer and reduces the extreme hunger between meals again, in general.

Philip Pape: 18:32

Also another trick front-loading calories earlier in the day. Right, you've always heard like having breakfast is a good thing to do. It aligns better with your circadian rhythm and that tends to result in better hormonal responses. You know we think of cortisol, for example, and less nighttime hunger. Believe it or not, eating earlier in the day, even though I've often recommended sometimes reserving some calories for later in the day because of late night hunger. Sometimes it's because you're not front-loading the protein and the calories earlier in the day.

Philip Pape: 19:02

So it's worth trying these things out. It's worth trying them out at the very least and see what works for you. So, from a systems perspective, we are optimizing the distribution of energy across time to maximize satiety and minimize hunger. It's kind of like if you can track when you're having your meals and then compare that to your hunger, you can then experiment and find the optimal point right. It's this intelligent personal structure for your meal timing and frequency that works with however your body's natural naturally works. However your body naturally works, okay, so I want to tie all of this together. I just gave you five really cool approaches. I hope at least one of them is going to help, be helpful to you and um the.

Philip Pape: 19:43

The real power here is is really combining them systematically. So, again, you don't have to do them all, but my most successful clients are generally doing all of these at some point and you build it up as a set of skills. So imagine combining higher protein intake, which you should be doing anyway before you even hit fat loss. Fat loss. Increased fiber same thing. Lower food density right, we're talking about calorie density. More complex foods that require chewing, optimizing your meal timing and frequency. The compounding effect of all of these will create a calorie deficit that does not feel anything like a typical diet that you've experienced in the past, where you were just slashing and burning and cutting and just feeling miserable. So definitely give it a shot.

Philip Pape: 20:28

Start with one, proceed to the next and the next and see how it helps with your hunger signals and your fullness, so that you can eat more quote unquote more food and in some cases, literally it is more in terms of volume and still maintain the calories or maintain the fat loss without as much hunger. And again, this is being smart and efficient. This is it. It's not trying to be a disciplined, will-powered, white-knuckling your way through dieting. No, it's understanding the physical and the biochemical properties of food and then using that knowledge to your advantage.

Philip Pape: 20:58

And then, when you approach the diet from that perspective, you realize that both eat less to lose weight and eat more to lose weight are actually oversimplifications. I think the more accurate statement would be maintain a calorie deficit to lose fat, but optimize your food choices so you can eat more volume while doing so. I know it's not short, punchy and sexy, but it's the truth and it's based on science and reality. And this not only makes fat loss more effective, but also the S word more sustainable. And sustainability is the key to long-term success. Because, after all, the best diet I'll say it over and over again to the cows come home the best diet is the one you can stick to.

Philip Pape: 21:39

By applying these evidence-based principles to your nutrition, you then transform what is a white-knuckled crash diet weight loss journey to a systematic approach that aligns with their body's natural process, and that's super important. That is an important shift. We don't want to be battling hunger. You're going to have a little bit of it, but you don't want to feel like you're constantly fighting it, especially if you have a history of a higher appetite than someone else.

Philip Pape: 22:06

If you want to learn more about how to do all of this, how to optimize your nutrition without the struggle, check out Whitson Weights Physique University. In there, we provide you everything you need the tools, the methods, the onboarding, the support, custom nutrition plans, workshops, courses all of that. We don't make it overwhelming. We guide you step by step from the beginning and have myself, my team, supporting you. We incorporate the principles we discussed today, tailored to your needs. We tell you how to tailor them as well. Personalized support. You get access to workout programs, challenges, a community check-ins, all of it. Go to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to learn more. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember smart nutrition is not about restricting yourself. It's about getting more from less. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights podcast.

7 Benefits of Sprinting to Lose Fat (And Why It Beats Cardio, Especially for Lifters!) | Ep 293

Get FREE access to our live workshop on adding sprinting to your training in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) plus a custom nutrition plan, live coaching calls, monthly workout programs and challenges, weekly check-ins, a supportive community, a resource vault, and courses on fat loss, physique development, and more!

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What's the best form of cardio for fat loss? If you lift weights, will cardio kill your gains?

Learn why SPRINTING is the secret weapon for lifters who want explosive strength and a leaner physique without compromising their gains.

Discover how this form of high-intensity movement complements your strength, power, and muscle development while accelerating fat loss.

Main Takeaways:

• Sprinting recruits the same type II muscle fibers you use during heavy lifting

• The hormonal response to sprinting is more similar to heavy lifting than cardio

• You'll burn fat more efficiently while preserving muscle mass

• Just 1-2 short sessions per week creates significant benefits for lifters

Episode Resources:

• Join WWPU and get access to tomorrow's live sprinting workshop and your first challenge + 2 weeks FREE: witsandweights.com/physique

• Related episode: Walking vs. Running for Fat Loss and Longevity (Brad Kearns)

Timestamps:

0:00 - Why sprinting is different from cardio 
4:33 - The problem with traditional cardio
6:52 - 7 benefits of sprinting for lifters
7:22 - Benefit #1: Improved conditioning without muscle loss
9:09 - Benefit #2: Enhanced fat loss while preserving strength
10:23 - Benefit #3: Explosive power development
11:25 - Benefit #4: Optimized hormonal environment
12:27 - Benefit #5: Direct strength carryover
14:00 - Benefit #6: Enhanced recovery capacity
15:37 - Benefit #7: Mental toughness & power output
16:34 - The sprinting protocol explained 
21:30 - Implementing sprinting efficiently in your training

Why Sprinting is the Ultimate Fat-Loss Tool for Lifters

If you’re lifting weights and want to lose fat while maintaining muscle, you’ve probably asked: What’s the best form of cardio? Or maybe you’ve heard that cardio can kill your gains. The truth? Traditional cardio might not be doing you any favors—but sprinting? Sprinting is an entirely different beast.

Sprinting isn't just another high-intensity workout. It's a tool that enhances fat loss, builds explosive power, and even improves recovery—without sacrificing your hard-earned muscle. If you’ve been avoiding cardio or dreading long, exhausting HIIT circuits, it’s time to rethink your strategy.

Let’s break down why sprinting should be in every lifter’s arsenal and how to implement it properly.

The Problem with Traditional Cardio for Lifters

Many lifters either overdo cardio or avoid it entirely. The problem is that traditional forms of endurance cardio—like jogging, cycling, or long HIIT circuits—can interfere with muscle growth and strength gains. Here’s why:

• It can increase cortisol levels – Long-duration cardio can keep stress hormones elevated, making recovery harder.

• It competes with strength adaptations – Your body isn’t sure if it should be in endurance mode or muscle-building mode.

• It can lead to muscle breakdown – Extended cardio sessions tap into muscle tissue for energy, reducing overall muscle mass.

But lumping all conditioning into the same category is a mistake. Sprinting is not the same as endurance cardio.

Why Sprinting is Different

Sprinting is a pure, explosive movement, similar to lifting heavy weights. When done correctly, it taps into your fast-twitch muscle fibers, improves power output, and creates a hormonal response that supports fat loss while preserving muscle.

Think about the difference in physique between an elite sprinter and a long-distance runner. Sprinting builds a strong, muscular, and powerful body. Long-distance running? Not so much.

And the best part? Sprinting is time-efficient—a few short, all-out efforts provide massive benefits in a fraction of the time compared to traditional cardio.

7 Research-Backed Benefits of Sprinting for Lifters

1. Boosts Conditioning Without Muscle Loss

Sprinting trains the phosphagen energy system—the same system used for heavy lifting. This means you can improve work capacity and recovery between sets without the downsides of endurance cardio.

2. Accelerates Fat Loss

Sprinting triggers excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC), keeping your metabolism elevated long after your workout. Unlike HIIT, which can push your body into excessive stress mode, sprinting gives you the calorie burn benefits without the hormonal downsides.

3. Develops Explosive Power

Every sprint is a full-body plyometric movement, training your nervous system to generate maximum force in minimal time. This translates directly to better performance in heavy squats, deadlifts, and other compound lifts.

4. Creates a Hormonal Environment for Muscle Growth

Sprinting increases testosterone and growth hormone while reducing cortisol. It also improves insulin sensitivity, which helps with nutrient partitioning—meaning more of your food goes toward muscle repair and less toward fat storage.

5. Carries Over to Strength and Lifting Mechanics

Sprint mechanics improve hip drive, triple extension (ankle, knee, and hip coordination), and overall movement efficiency. This has direct benefits for squats, deadlifts, and athletic performance.

6. Enhances Recovery Between Workouts

Sprinting strengthens connective tissue, improves blood flow, and reduces inflammation. Since it's short-duration, it doesn’t tax your recovery like traditional cardio, making it an ideal complement to strength training.

7. Builds Mental Toughness and Maximum Power Output

Sprinting forces you to push through short, high-intensity efforts—similar to heavy lifting. Training at max effort expands your mental resilience and your ability to push harder in the gym.

How to Incorporate Sprinting (Without Overdoing It)

Sprinting is not something you jump into full speed on day one. Proper implementation is key. Here’s a simple, effective sprinting protocol inspired by Brad Kearns:

The Sprinting Protocol:

• 4 to 8 sets of 10 to 20 seconds all-out sprints

• Rest for 6x the sprint duration (e.g., if you sprint for 10 seconds, rest for 60 seconds)

• Do this 1-2 times per week

• Start on a bike or incline before moving to flat ground sprints

Key points:

• Sprint at max effort—99-100% intensity

• Rest fully between sprints to maintain high output

• Begin with fewer sets and work your way up

• If speed drops off, stop the session (sprinting at reduced intensity becomes just another cardio session)

Sprinting Surfaces:

• Best: Bike, sled pushes, hills, stairs (low impact)

• Progression: Gradual transition to flat-ground sprints (avoid cushioned running shoes)

For most lifters, twice a week is enough—one session on a bike, one on flat ground. This gives you all the benefits without interfering with lifting.

Why Sprinting is a Game Changer for Lifters

Sprinting isn't just cardio—it’s a force multiplier for your training. It burns fat, builds explosive power, enhances recovery, and improves work capacity—all without sacrificing muscle.

By adding sprints to your routine just twice a week, you can unlock a new level of athleticism, conditioning, and fat loss that supports your lifting goals instead of working against them.

So if you’ve been hesitant to add cardio, give sprinting a try. It’s short, efficient, and—when done right—it’s one of the best fat-loss and performance-boosting tools for lifters.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

One of the most common questions I get is what do I do for cardio or will cardio kill my gains? Well, forget traditional cardio, hiit workouts or metabolic conditioning. There's a form of high-intensity movement that's completely different, one that can complement your strength, power and muscle development while accelerating fat loss. Today, we're uncovering why sprinting true anaerobic sprinting is the secret weapon for lifters who want explosive strength and a leaner physique without compromising their gains. You'll learn the science behind why sprinting complements muscle building, while other forms of conditioning tend to break it down, and exactly how to implement it to accelerate your results. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are examining why sprinting belongs in every serious lifter's training arsenal. Let me be clear we are not talking about cardio jogging or those exhausting HIIT circuits that leave you drained. We are talking about pure, explosive, anaerobic work, the kind that triggers muscle fiber recruitment and hormonal responses similar to heavy lifting. Even if you've sworn off cardio to protect your gains, the unique benefits of proper sprinting might change your mind. Now, before we get into these benefits, I want to tell you about two exciting things happening in our Wits and Weights Physique University coaching program. First, tomorrow I am hosting a live workshop where I'll break down my complete sprinting protocol the exact method I use with clients to accelerate results, to improve fat loss, to get leaner without losing muscle, and it is really a game changer. If you're wondering how to implement your quote unquote cardio Plus, we are kicking off our first ever transformation challenge in the community. We're going to have monthly challenges going forward and when you join WWPU now today, you're going to get free access to both the workshop and the challenge and 14 days of access to sort of kick the tires and see what it's all about. So click the link in the show notes or head to witsandweightscom slash physique to learn all about Physique University and everything that's included, as well as get free access for two weeks and you'll have access to tomorrow's workshop on sprinting. As well as get free access for two weeks and you'll have access to tomorrow's workshop on sprinting as well as our first challenge all the resources associated with that, as soon as you join.

Philip Pape: 2:33

All right, let's break this down into three segments when we cover sprinting today. First, I'm going to talk about what most lifters get wrong about cardio and conditioning and why sprinting is fundamentally different. It is its own term, sprinting. We don't want to confuse that with running totally different things. And that's the first thing. Second, we're going to explore seven research-backed benefits that make sprinting uniquely valuable in and of itself for anyone focused on building strength and muscle. This is something I'm personally incorporating now that I wasn't before. It is a game changer. It's a level up in my personal education, both as a podcaster and a coach, and also for my clients. Finally, I'm gonna outline the framework for implementing sprinting in your training without compromising your primary goals. And again, if you wanna join us for tomorrow's live workshop in the Physique University, just join today. Again, you can cancel literally right after the workshop if you don't think it's for you, but at least you can be there. It's live, it's on Zoom, you'll get all the resources, you'll get the guide and I'm going to go over specific protocols in much more detail than what I'm covering today.

Philip Pape: 3:35

All right, let's start with the elephant in the room, which is this widespread fear of cardio in the lifting community, and there's either a fear of it, or people are doing it wrong, or they think they have to do a lot of it, or that it's the way to instigate fat loss. And I've done other episodes about cardio itself and the value of walking as opposed to doing chronic what's called metronomic cardio like running. But then we have on the other side people saying well, I have heard that too much cardio is going to interfere with my recovery, interfere with my gains, so I'm just not going to do it at all. And I think I think the fear isn't entirely unfounded because traditional cardio training that we are all used to in our head, which is, you know, excessive, oftentimes incorrectly in terms of form, especially if you're a runner. There's a lot of heel striking, cushioned shoes, just terrible for your joints, for your recovery, for muscle tearing. That can definitely interfere with muscle growth and strength development, for sure.

Philip Pape: 4:33

And there is solid evidence showing that too much endurance work can elevate cortisol. Especially when you have these long sessions and now you're just taking that cortisol up chronically. It can create excessive systemic fatigue and then that impacts your lifting performance. You get to the gym and now you're sluggish, you're drained, you can't push as heavy or hard. It can generate competing adaptation signals to your muscle development. So your body's like am I in endurance mode or am I in muscle building mode and then they increase your overall inflammation and keep you under-recovered just indefinitely, so to speak.

Philip Pape: 5:09

Where most people get this wrong, though, is they lump all forms of conditioning into the same category. Right, they hear cardio and they immediately think of long runs and less psyching, the brutal hit circuits for those of us who are familiar with CrossFit or F45, and they kind of destroy you, right, and for some people, that's a badge of honor. Yeah, it killed me, it destroyed me, I couldn't get up. That is not a good thing. Now, this is like saying that all resistance training is the same, whether you're doing lightweight, high rep pump work or heavy compound movements. No, it's not all the same.

Philip Pape: 5:38

The stimulus matters enormously, and sprinting is fundamentally different. It's a unique form of I don't even know if I call it conditioning, but it's definitely a specialization that is missing from a lot of our repertoires. It is not endurance work, right. It's not even really cardio in the traditional sense, because, true, sprinting is a pure expression of power, right, it's more like an explosive lift, that concentric on your bench press or your squat, than a conditioning session, and when you sprint properly, you're recruiting the same type two muscle fibers that you target during heavy squats or deadlifts, you're actually training your nervous system to generate maximum force in minimal time. And, just as a side tangent, look at the physiques of a 100 meter, 200 meter sprinter and compare that to a long distance runner. I'm not saying it's all about physique, but there is a difference in how the body expresses and develops itself to support that specialty. And this distinction is really important because it completely changes how your body responds to training. Instead of breaking down muscle tissue to fuel this long duration work, you're actually creating an anabolic environment that supports muscle growth and strength development.

Philip Pape: 6:52

We're going to touch on this a little bit. I don't want you to think that sprinting itself is how you build muscle, but it supports it and it can complement it in really almost magical ways. It's pretty incredible. So that's why sprinting is different. Now I want to break down the seven specific benefits that make it uniquely valuable for lifters. I'm of a mind now that everyone should be doing this. These are not theoretical. They're backed by research, they're backed by real world experience with athletes, with lifters, and so I'm going to go through each one.

Philip Pape: 7:22

Number one is you can improve your conditioning very effectively without muscle loss. And the first and most immediate benefit here is really related to improved work capacity, but without any of the downsides of traditional cardio phosphagen energy system, right, the ATP-CP, the adenosine triphosphate, creatine phosphate system, and that is the same one you use for heavy lifts as opposed to your glycolytic glycogen burning system, and so that means you're going to have better recovery between sets during your lifting sessions. Because you have this higher work capacity, you have an enhanced ability to sustain your intensity throughout your workouts and then improved overall training capacity, but without breaking down muscle in the process. And I don't want to make it sound like all other forms of cardio aren't going to help you get conditioned. I do think you can do low-grade workouts, intent, like what they call low intensity, steady state cardio, and as long as it's not running, um, if it's something that's concentrically focused, like being on a bike or swimming or pushing a prowler, I still I still can recommend that to like. It's not going to necessarily hurt doing that. If it's done a couple of times a week, you know for far less of the amount of time as you lift weights. That's still the benchmark. I still stand by that. You don't necessarily need to do it. In fact, I would prefer you just walk and sometimes make your walking a little bit harder like rucking weighted vests, inclines, walking really fast, things like that than those other forms of cardio.

Philip Pape: 8:55

And then add sprinting in for its unique benefits. Trust me, sprinting is its own thing. You've got to be doing this. Number two so okay, so that's number one. It increases your work capacity without any of the downsides. Number two it enhances fat loss.

Philip Pape: 9:09

Okay, and this I used to be skeptical over. I didn't understand quite why that would be the case. But there's a few different reasons for it. One has to do with hormones, which we're actually going to put into a separate category and talk about in a moment. For this one, I'm just going to focus on what they call the EPOC effect excess post-exercise oxygen consumption, where your body stays in a heightened metabolic state for hours after your session.

Philip Pape: 9:34

So this really does kind of come down to a little bit of a calorie burn thing, right, kind of like when the benefits of HIIT that they've said. Well, with HIIT you can burn a lot of calories in a short amount of time. The problem with HIIT is you could push past that fat burning point into the height, the stress triggering point. With sprinting you don't get to that point. So you're kind of like giving yourself a little bit of a boost is what I like to think of it and your body will kind of tail off into that calorie burn long after you finish, which is pretty cool. And then your body's going to preferentially burn fat because of the mode of the anaerobic mode of training. And of course, you maintain muscle mass because you're triggering strength, not endurance. So that also enhances fat loss, right. So all these little side effects of sprinting where your body perceives it as more of a strength activity rather than an endurance activity, and yet you get the cardio benefits.

Philip Pape: 10:23

Number three is explosive power development. This is where sprinting kind of stands on its own, other than dynamic effort type work. So what I mean by that is for anybody who's used to using speed work in the gym, where you might use a submaximal weight for just a few reps but then you might do like 10 sets with very short rest periods and use explosive force. It's kind of in that regime, right, but a lot of people are not doing that in their programming, nor do you necessarily have to. But this is definitely where sprinting shines, because every sprint is essentially a full body plyometric movement. Right, you're teaching your body to generate maximum force in minimal time, to recruit those high threshold motor units, to improve the rate of force development, and all of these directly carry over to your lifting performance. I would be interested to see if you incorporate sprinting, how it actually improves potentially some of your lifts and definitely lower body lifts, but just lifts in general, all right.

Philip Pape: 11:25

Benefit number four is the optimized hormonal environment. So the hormonal response to sprinting is really helpful and critical. It's more similar to heavy lifting than traditional cardio. We're talking about increased testosterone, growth hormone, lower cortisol response. It's like how lifting increases your stress and blood pressure in the moment the acute response but it lowers the chronic response compared to endurance work, whereas endurance activity excuse me, cardio could actually ramp that up and increase your stress. I know people say well, I run to relieve stress and it's enjoyable. That's like saying I drink alcohol to relieve stress. It doesn't quite work because it actually increases your chronic stress. It increases your insulin sensitivity as well, which is incredible, and that helps with nutrient partitioning and fat loss and your health markers all around. We know blood sugar control again same effect as lifting has, but this is a form of quote unquote cardio. So that's benefit number four is the hormonal environment hugely beneficial.

Philip Pape: 12:27

Benefit number five is the direct strength carryover, which I've already alluded to, but I wanted to put it in its own item because the movement patterns in sprinting can enhance your lifting mechanics for primarily the lower body lifts. Think about your hip drive, right, which is critical for squats and deadlifts, not just the hip drive, but really the development systemically of your body as a system. Right, it's a movement pattern. It's the same reason we like to do full body squats is. It recruits all the muscles in synchrony, right as an orchestrated system. So you think your squats and deadlifts could potentially be enhanced.

Philip Pape: 13:06

You get better at what's called triple extension your ankles, your knees, your hips, the three joints. When you think compound lift is because multiple joints are involved. When you do a squat, your ankles, your knees and your hips are involved and studies have shown sprinting can improve your triple extension. So if you're like, hey, my ankles are tight or I don't feel like I have the range or they're, you know, my knees have been bothering me, sprinting might be able to help with that, believe it or not, whereas running can often have the opposite effect. It could really bang up your knees and ankles, especially the way most people do it. And so then you get improved overall body coordination and control. I mean, look, when you sprint, it is a primal, invigorating movement that is very human and it puts you, it enhances your mind muscle connection like few other things. And so think about how that carries directly over to lifting. All right.

Philip Pape: 14:00

Number six the benefit of sprinting is your recovery capacity. Now, this is a little bit different than the work capacity. This is recovery between sessions. So proper sprinting, it does a few things. That helps recovery. And again, it seems counterintuitive because it's this very explosive. It seems like a taxing thing sprinting itself. But remember, it's extremely short, at least the protocol we're going to talk about. Stick around.

Philip Pape: 14:26

I'm going to talk about the protocol in a bit. It's extremely short and it does not go past into that stressful regime. So what it does do is it strengthens your connective tissue, it improves blood flow without creating the excessive inflammation, and so it helps you build your work capacity gradually and systematically. And, by the way, when you start sprinting it's pretty much going to gas you. You're probably not going to be able to do the full protocol, trust me, even if you're quote-unquote fit, you may not be able to handle the full protocol on day one. You're going to work up to it and once you can do the full number of sets, then you're just going to get faster and faster. That's the way you're going to progress. You're not going to add more time, you're never going to add more sets. You're going to get up to sort of the main protocol and then you're going to get faster and faster. And that is I mean, that's almost, I guess proof that it's going to improve your conditioning in that sense. Only because you're not able to do it as much. The first session, and then you can the second, and then better and better and better. Right, but anyway, this enhances recovery capacity between your lifting sessions, which is why well, not why, but I like doing sprinting on an off day or on an upper body day later on, far removed from your lifting.

Philip Pape: 15:37

And then number seven, the final benefit I want to talk about today is the mental toughness and power output. I'm just kind of linking these together. The psychological demands of sprinting are unique. Now that I've done it I've started doing it myself I recognize that it's its own form of mental resilience because, say, unlike grinding through a long set or a cardio session, that's a different mental issue or mental challenge Sprinting. It requires you to be completely focused for short, intense bursts, which reminds me a lot of like a single rep of a very heavy squat, for example. It requires you to generate maximum effort on command and it creates mental resilience that, I believe, carries over to heavy lifting, and so they complement each other. So you notice, all of this is very much overlapping with lifting weights and yet it gives you the benefits of cardio.

Philip Pape: 16:34

So what could be better for lifters? That's my argument to you. That's my question is what could be better? Do you see a problem with this? So I like to use a protocol, now that it's inspired by Brad Kearns. He was on the show. I've actually, you know, googled, researched, used AI to explore lots of different protocols and I could see why Brad ended up at this particular one. Because it's just simple, it makes sense and it does the job, and he and the way it, the way it goes, is as simple.

Philip Pape: 17:04

You do four to eight sets of 10 to 20 seconds all out, with six times the rest period. Okay, hopefully I didn't confuse you too much. So, 10 to 20 seconds. All out. And all out literally means all out, like you are hauling ass at the maximum possible effort. I mean 99.9%, if not 100%. If that's possible, all right. For 10 to 20 seconds, then you take six times that duration of rest. So if you go for 10 seconds, you rest for at least 60 seconds. If you're able to go the full 20 seconds, you rest for at least two minutes. And I say at least you can rest longer.

Philip Pape: 17:42

The whole point is getting completely recovered. In fact, you might need to rest a little longer at first. And then you do that four to eight times. And let me tell you, when you do this the first time, you may barely get four of those sets and don't try to get a fifth or sixth. If your speed is dropping off, you have to go all out. If you're not going all out, you're done, you're done. Don't push it, or else you're going to get the negative effects of any other form of cardio. You're getting passed into that stress point. So, four to eight sets, 10 to 20 seconds all out, six, x times the rest period versus the work period.

Philip Pape: 18:14

Now how can you do this? Do you have to do this on flat ground. No, you could do this on a machine like a bike or elliptical or even a stair climber, and I would, in fact, encourage that initially, while you're working up to it, or use stairs or use a hill, because that'll be a lot easier on some of your joints that aren't used to this yet your calves, your shins, your ankles and then work up to the flat ground. So the way I'm doing it is I'm using a bike twice a week and as we get towards spring and everything's starting to thaw because we still have a lot of snow and ice I'm going to be adapted enough. I should be able to comfortably be getting all eight sets. I'm up to like six or seven right now because it is that difficult in a good way, and I consider myself pretty fit. I have a resting heart rate of like 45, and yet I need to adapt to this and train for it. So you know, I'm going to get up to my eight sets twice a week and then I can incorporate at least one of those as flat ground sprinting once a week.

Philip Pape: 19:07

Um, and I picked up some barefoot footwear for it to give that a shot. But cause I would? I would avoid using like cushioned running shoes, because that introduces the same kind of problems that you get from running in those shoes. So that's what I would do. I wouldn't do this twice a week on flat ground like running. Uh, you know, ground-based sprinting. I know we like to call it running, but it's not running, it's sprinting. I would do at least one of those on a machine, or both of them, and only limit your flat ground sprinting to no more than once a week and give it a shot.

Philip Pape: 19:35

Give you know again if you join physique university today for a free trial and then join our workshop tomorrow and, by the way, the workshop will have a replay, in case you're listening to this episode and it's too late for the workshop, which is, um, tomorrow, tuesday, uh, whatever the date is, I'm sorry I don't. I'm recording this ahead of time, um, but whenever this episode came out, tuesday at 12 PM Eastern, the replay will be available. But in that workshop I'm going to break down how you can incorporate this into your, your programming, very specifically, with all the options, with all the ways to do it, with how to progress it and all of that. So today I just gave you the basics and that's enough to run with pun intended dad joke to sprint with, I should say. But in the workshop we're going to go over the details, all right.

Philip Pape: 20:19

So one thing that's fascinating that people miss about sprinting is it starts to reframe how you define intensity, right. It's kind of like what happened to me when I started lifting weights and I realized that the word intensity in the lifting community refers to the weight on the bar, not how much you're pushing it or how much you're sweating or your heart rate goes up. So sprinting kind of has a similar thing. When you, when you experience true maximal output in a sprint, it starts to create a. You experience true maximal output in a sprint, it starts to create a new reference point for effort in your training. That heavy set of squats that felt like a 10 RPE might now feel like an eight. Think about how mind-blowing and amazingly helpful that could be because your capacity to generate force, to recruit muscle fiber, to push past perceived limits Remember, some of this is just mental.

Philip Pape: 21:06

Some of this is just mental. It all expands your base, expands of your explosiveness, your power, your perception of what hard is, and that's why sprinting is not just oh, it's just another training tool. It's a catalyst. It can enhance everything else you do in the gym, right? You're not just adding more work, which is typically what we do with cardio. It's adding the right kind of work that amplifies your primary training goal.

Philip Pape: 21:30

So the last thing I'm going to say about sprinting for lifters it's simple and it's efficient. That's the essence of this show, isn't it? It's simple and efficient. You don't need complex protocols or hours of your time. A few short, like one or two a week, which would take maybe 15, I mean, do the math but 15 to 20 minutes tops with all the rest. It's mostly rest, let's be honest. But one or two short focus sessions can dramatically improve your body's ability to build muscle, to burn fat, to generate power. You are going to feel super athletic, you're gonna feel even younger than you already are feeling from lifting weights and when you program it correctly, it becomes a force multiplier for everything else you're doing in the gym.

Philip Pape: 22:11

So if you want to take your training and physique to the next level, now's the perfect time to join Wits and Weights Physique University so you get access to tomorrow's sprinting protocol workshop plus free entry into our upcoming challenge when you join this week. By the way, these challenges we do they're going to be mini challenges about 10 days long. They're not going to be like an entire month every time, month after month. That's going to burn people out. I'm all about efficiency. It's 10 days. We level up one skill. The first challenge is going to be about actually steps right. So we're going to give you some fun ways to level up your steps not just step count, but different things to try to make it more fun and interesting part of your life.

Philip Pape: 22:46

So all of this stuff, it's not theory. We give you systems, we give you support to build your best physique using these tools. So you don't have to do chronic cardio, you don't have to restrict food, all of the things we onboard you. We give you a custom nutrition plan. We give you monthly workouts, the monthly challenges and tons and tons of support and great people in there who are super curious and excited. So if you're a curious person who just wants to learn and you want to get pretty much as much education as you would get in a nutrition certification, but as a person who just wants to level up their physique, go to winstonweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to join Today. Two weeks free, free challenge, free workshop. I'll see you there Until next time. Keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that getting lean doesn't mean endless hours of cardio. It means training with purpose and with power. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Why Women NEED to Bulk for Long-Term Strength and Longevity (Niki Sims) | Ep 292

Download my free Strength Training for Hormone Health guide to optimize your hormones, boost your metabolism, and maintain muscle mass for life.

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Are you worried that lifting heavy will make you "too bulky"? What's holding you back from building muscle as a woman?

I'm joined by Nikki Sims, strength coach, and Chief Experience Officer at Barbell Logic, to break down why most women are leaving huge muscle and strength gains on the table and how understanding the science of muscle growth can change your fitness journey.

Nikki also shares her journey from skinny to strong, her experience with bulking and cutting phases, and the biggest lessons she's learned from coaching women for over a decade.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:09 - Why do many women fear their physical potential?
03:58 - The influence of media and beauty standards
07:12 - From aesthetics to strength and performance
10:49 - Strength training as a gateway to confidence
19:11 - Can you be "too strong" or "too muscular"?
27:17 - Nikki’s personal bulking and cutting experiences
32:39 - Gaining weight vs "getting fat"
39:31 - How long should you bulk?
50:33 - Building muscle even when you can't squat or deadlift
56:20 - The surprising mental health benefits of lifting heavy
1:06:19 - Why every woman should get a strength coach
1:10:00 - Outro

Why Women Need to Bulk to Stay Strong and Healthy for Life

If you’ve ever worried that lifting heavy or gaining weight would make you look “too bulky,” it’s time to throw that fear out the window. The truth is, building muscle is one of the best things women can do for their strength, confidence, and long-term health. And no, you’re not going to wake up looking like a bodybuilder overnight—because that takes years of intentional effort.

Strength coach Niki Sims joined me on Wits & Weights to talk about why so many women hold themselves back from getting stronger, how to bulk strategically without unnecessary fat gain, and why this shift in perspective could completely change your fitness journey.

Why Women Fear Muscle (and Why They Shouldn’t)

Women have been conditioned to believe that getting stronger means getting “big and bulky.” Niki pointed out that this fear is rooted in outdated beauty standards from the ‘90s and early 2000s—the era of ultra-thin models and low-rise jeans. Society told women that being as small as possible was the goal, and lifting weights seemed to be the opposite of that.

But here’s the reality:

• Muscle doesn’t appear overnight. Even men, who have significantly more testosterone, take years of dedicated training to build serious muscle mass.

• Getting stronger makes you look better, not bigger. A well-trained body isn’t “bulky”—it’s athletic, powerful, and lean.

• You won’t gain muscle by accident. Building muscle requires strategic training, progressive overload, and enough food to support it.

Strength vs. Aesthetics

Shifting the focus from appearance to performance changes everything. Instead of worrying about getting too big, imagine being able to deadlift your body weight, carry your own luggage without struggling, or maintain your strength well into your 70s and 80s.

Strength training helps women:

• Prevent osteoporosis by increasing bone density.

• Boost metabolism by maintaining lean muscle mass.

• Improve body composition—muscle is denser than fat, so even if the scale goes up, your physique will look more toned and firm.

• Enhance confidence by proving to yourself what your body is capable of.

Bulking Without Getting “Fat”

Many women think that “bulking” means eating everything in sight and getting fluffy. Not true. A smart bulking phase is controlled, gradual, and focused on muscle gain, not fat accumulation.

Niki shared her personal experience going from 185 pounds to 155, using strategic bulks and cuts to build muscle while staying comfortable in her body. Her key takeaways for a successful bulk:

1. Eat in a Small Caloric Surplus

A slight increase of 300-500 calories per day is all you need to build muscle without excessive fat gain. This allows your body to use the extra energy for muscle repair and growth.

2. Prioritize Protein

Aim for at least 0.8-1.0 grams of protein per pound of body weight to fuel muscle recovery. Good sources include lean meats, eggs, dairy, and protein supplements if needed.

3. Train with Progressive Overload

To build muscle, you have to challenge your body. This means gradually increasing weight, reps, or intensity in your lifts over time.

4. Measure Progress with Strength and Performance

Instead of obsessing over the scale, track your strength gains, body measurements, and how you feel in your clothes. A slight increase in weight is normal—and necessary—for muscle growth.

5. Give Your Body Time

Muscle-building is a slow process. A bulk should last at least 3-6 months to see meaningful changes before considering a fat-loss phase. Trying to stay too lean year-round prevents muscle growth.

The Mental and Physical Benefits of Strength

Beyond the physical transformation, lifting heavy has profound mental benefits. As Niki put it, “You’re rewarded for how present you are.” Training forces you to be in the moment, to focus, and to build resilience—both mentally and physically.

It’s not just about adding muscle. It’s about training for longevity, being able to move well as you age, and developing an unshakable confidence in what your body can do.

TL;DR — Women NEED to Lift and Eat to Support Muscle Growth

The idea that lifting will make you “bulky” is one of the biggest myths holding women back from reaching their full potential. Strength is not just about aesthetics—it’s about health, longevity, and quality of life.

Instead of fearing muscle, embrace the challenge. Train with intent. Eat to support your performance. And recognize that getting stronger is one of the best gifts you can give yourself for the long haul.

If you’re ready to break free from diet culture and step into your strongest self, start lifting heavy—and don’t be afraid to fuel your body properly.

Episode resources:

• Beast over Burden Podcast

• Instagram: @barbell_logic 

• Youtube: @BeastOverBurden 

• Get a free coaching consultation with Barbell Logic: barbell-logic.com/experience
  

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

🎓 Get your first challenge FREE (plus 40% off for life) in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) using code POD40

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free for evidence-based workout programs

🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a woman who's been hesitant to lift heavy or build muscle, worried about getting too bulky or confused by all the conflicting advice about gaining weight, this episode is for you. Join me and strength coach Nikki Sims as we reveal why most women are leaving massive gains on the table and how understanding the science of strength training and muscle is a game changer for giving you confidence with your fitness, so you can finally just get strong. Learn why the fear of getting too muscular is holding you back, discover what actually drives muscle growth in women and get practical tips, as always, to start thriving in strength. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to utterly dismantle one of the biggest barriers holding women back from reaching their physique and longevity goals with the one and only Nikki Sims. Oh my gosh. Longevity goals with the one and only Nikki Sims oh my gosh. She's like I'm just Nikki.

Philip Pape: 1:10

Now for those of you who don't know Nikki, and come on, if you don't know her already, go check out her stuff. She is the Chief Experience Officer at Barbellogic. She's host of the Beast Over Burden podcast. Definitely give that a follow. She spent over a decade helping women overcome their fear of building muscle and getting stronger we're going to talk about today, while transforming her own relationship with training and nutrition. By the way, she loves deadlifting. Check out her Instagram profile Best Good stuff. She's up in the four plates and I, for one, I'm a huge fan and stoked to talk with her today. So you are going to learn today what drives muscle growth in women. You're going to learn how to bulk strategically without getting bulky. You're going to learn how to break free from some of the myths and mindsets that hold you back. And stick around, because Nikki will be giving you plenty of tips as we go along to get started later on in the episode. Nikki, thank you for coming on the show.

Niki Sims: 1:59

What an intro man. It's good to be here.

Philip Pape: 2:02

It is awesome to be here. It's so much fun to meet somebody who I've followed for a while through Barbell Logic we talked about before recording. I came from the Starting Strength community and I've shared a lot of your videos with folks, so anybody who's looking for really good form checks go check out your YouTube channel and then definitely follow the podcast. I want to talk about what we're here for today, which is do you find that many women fear their own physical potential?

Niki Sims: 2:28

It's a really good way to put it at the base of what might be happening inside them, and I think they're fearing what they might have to look like in order to be strong, because there's such an instant image that pops into most people's head when they hear I have to put on muscle is that of a stage-ready bodybuilder or someone who's gone really far, and very successfully far down the road of putting on as much muscle as they can, and so I think they're afraid that that's what they are hearing, that they have to become, when it's really not the case.

Niki Sims: 3:04

That may not be the journey for them, and if they want to do it you don't get there by accident. I'm sure you've said this a million times. That doesn't happen on accident. That happens with a lot of hard decisions and a lot of hard work. So, yeah, I think when women are hearing this conversation about needing to put on muscle or hear that they should put on muscle, it's a fear of what could happen to them and it's something that they don't want to happen to them, and that's always worth digging into to learn more about what those words like bulky really mean to them.

Philip Pape: 3:37

Yeah, yeah, because like a man might hear that and be like heck, yeah, like, let's bulk up. You know, and it's a different intonation or a implication. It's funny you mentioned the. You know, it can't happen by accident. You wrote a really good article about this whole topic and get pretty vulnerable in your thoughts on this and you said if you don't want to look bulky for muscle, I'm sure you won't. So I mean, let's just hammer that point home. I'm still surprised having been in the industry for I don't know four years now not a huge amount of time, but long enough to even see trends evolve in that time that this is still a big fear. Let's explore that. Why is that? Is there marketing behind it? Or is it just a lack of clarity with the information out there?

Niki Sims: 4:18

I think it's a fear because, especially, I think, women in my age group and I I'm in my late 30s I have, I think, less than two weeks in my 30s counting down the days we grew up with this idealized image of like Kate Moss or in really thin actresses, and there were even a lot of movies and magazines that told us what it meant to be fat and we were probably all that weight range which was a healthy weight range.

Niki Sims: 4:49

And so there's this and it was shoved into our brains when we were really young and still developing. So it's really hard to break away from this idealized image that we still Part of our brains still think we need to look like that image that we still part of our brain still think we need to look like that. And we're afraid to be far away from that, from those physical characteristics which are really skinny arms, super duper, flat stomach, the worst jeans ever, which are the low rise jeans Like you can only wear those if you are really really thin, which, if you are, that's great for you, whatever. But it's like a fear of not being what we really thought we were supposed to be.

Philip Pape: 5:29

Yeah, it's funny you mentioned, like Kate Moss. I know, the SNL 50 thing is going on and there's like all these actors in there and you can kind of see some of the standards, the beauty standards, and I know, for guys like Brad Pitt, the Fight Club thing gets thrown out all the time and you know, to the credit, today, like you're seeing some of the bigger guys, like I don't know if you've seen Reacher on Amazon Prime, that guy, yep, it is definitely a double standards. It's not like you see women, big, strong women, coming out in these positions, in these roles, even today, Even in the superhero roles, they're like wait, I was like, I wouldn't even trust you to pick up a 15 pound dumbbell like no yeah yeah, yeah, that's right.

Philip Pape: 6:06

There was a movie called the gorge with like a sniper.

Lisa: 6:09

I just watched that yeah wasn't it good?

Niki Sims: 6:11

wasn't it good?

Philip Pape: 6:12

um what's her name? Joy, joy's in her name, yeah and something like yeah and with the big eyes and um, and she's doing all this athletic stuff and you know, some of it actually makes sense if you're thinking of the calisthenics part of it and like the acrobatic part of it. But then she's also supposed to be this like superhero, you know, strong and everything. She's kind of small, you know.

Niki Sims: 6:30

Yeah, and you know, some people are genetically certain ways Sure and when their bodies are left to their own devices, meaning they're not trying to change them, they might end up being easy gainers or it might be really hard to gain weight. And you know we're left thinking about these things, like when you start to get into the industry, like you, of changing bodies. You cannot help but think about that stuff. When you're watching someone whose physicality is part of their role is like I know what you have to live like to look like that and you can't do it for long.

Philip Pape: 7:04

Yes, and then when it bleeds into clients, then you're like now, wait a minute, let's take a step back and focus on what we really are going for here. Maybe that's a good segue, nikki, into talking about strength and talking about, like, the things we can really go after from a performance perspective, even if physique is a little piece of that. You know, I guess. What does strength mean to you, and as a woman and more generally, as a human, you know, and maybe we can go off of that tangent.

Niki Sims: 7:32

Yeah, and even just this pivot is important because it's going from this kind of outside like image of what you think you should be and how you should be seen to something that's yours and like being in your body and making choices about your working out and your training.

Niki Sims: 7:52

It's about how you interact with the world. It's about how you eat, it's about how you feel, it's about how you sleep, it's how your whole 24 hours actually feels like, how you're able to experience it, how you're able to take ownership over it, versus someone looking at you from the outside and you thinking that you should look a certain way to them. So now we're really pivoting it to something that we cannot control, to something that we have a lot of control over and we can actually get a lot of joy and rewarding feelings out of. I think that's such the way you pivoted, I think is really just a great example of why it's really important to actually start thinking about okay, well, how, how does it feel to be on the same team as my body? Yeah, and how does it feel to see what it it performs like and looks like when I'm in a good relationship with it?

Philip Pape: 8:40

Yeah, yeah, it was in my notes here. It says when, when Nikki says this, you want to pivot to the strength topic? I'm just kidding. I like how you said it is the locus of control. I don't think you used the word locus, but I know that's what you mean.

Philip Pape: 8:58

I don't think I've used that word, but I'm going to them are mine and you said taking ownership of your 24 hours or, to paraphrase, which is amazing, because I do see a mindset shift with people who are struggling and feel like they don't have control and don't have confidence and they're not sure why what they're doing doesn't translate to some result, and that's a lack of control, right, and they might even do things that are extreme, like dieting that, and then it doesn't work. And so this idea that, wow, you could become a beast, right, and then you can conquer your burden, to take your podcast title and kind of mold your physical relationship as a physical relationship with yourself, in terms of relationship with strength. So I mean, maybe dive into that a little more because I want to know. You've talked about going from skinny to strong. Why is it important, I guess? Why should people care?

Niki Sims: 9:49

about that being strong at all. Being strong is a different way of being in the world. You are able to do so many more things than you ever knew you could, and you start to really understand what your body is for. I think a lot of people can just get completely tied up and being in their head and they have no relationship with what it's like to exert their bodies. You know there are so many people who are just so completely sedentary, you know, living on the internet, doing whatever, but have no appreciation for what it feels like to contract your muscles really, really hard and to earn fatigue and to realize that you can do a single chin-up, which maybe you thought was just something completely impossible, or to squat your own body weight. There's this whole world of feeling that, before you really get into it, you don't know exists, and when you do learn about that, and once you get into it and feel what it's like, it's so hard to go back.

Niki Sims: 11:04

Once you know what strong feels, like you just can't, you can't not be it. It's like too devastating I totally jive with that.

Philip Pape: 11:10

100 because yeah, it's like a different version of yourself emerges from this cocoon.

Philip Pape: 11:15

You've been like sedentary in it's like the matrix what you're saying. It's like you're taking the red pill or whatever the pill is that shows you what it could be. Yeah, and you're a human right Like so. I just interviewed Brad Kearns. I think his episode comes out before this one. He co-wrote a book with Mark Sisson on the value of walking right Born to walk. It's walking versus running, and the whole premise is just our relationship with the world. When you talk about, you know walking barefoot, or you know sprinting or lifting heavy things or playing. Those are human things. What are many people doing? It's the opposite of those.

Niki Sims: 11:48

Yeah, Right, yeah, and they, like both our bodies and our brain, can be really victims to hormones, or they can create hormones that we really want, and so, interestingly, those chemical reactions can make us feel out of control. But when you get organized in your training and you get organized in your eating, your ability to understand what's going on increases and you can experience less stress by feeling like a victim to those hormones and even just your own thoughts. And so when you become more physical and when you interact with the world through your body, I think you can be a lot more accepting of yourself.

Philip Pape: 12:39

Yeah, it creates acceptance and also maybe resilience from that. Yeah, you just said something very powerful. You said get organized with training and eating, which hits a nerve for me because I talk about physique engineering and using data and tracking, and I know you guys do as well. And just today, I think, or yesterday, somebody who had like dabbled in one of my group programs. She's like I think this is going to be too overwhelming because I have three kids and you're asking me to track things right. And immediately I thought, okay, I've seen this story before, right, because you've got to meet people where they're at. But also, I think people don't necessarily realize how valuable it is to get organized, in that it reduces the stress eventually if you kind of get over that hump.

Philip Pape: 13:19

Tell us more about that. When you say get organized with training and get organized with eating, what does that mean?

Niki Sims: 13:25

It means appreciating that your actions today may not be felt until two, three, four or five weeks later and your ability to appreciate or to feeling a payoff is not instant anymore and it can be wildly rewarding is not instant anymore. And it can be wildly rewarding, but what it feels like in the moment is you do a workout and, instead of the goal being complete exhaustion and no longer able to do any more reps, and you're just totally done. Or you look at your fitness tracker and you see, oh good, I've burnt 600 calories. That's great. That's not the reward anymore.

Niki Sims: 14:07

The reward is a cumulative effect where you're managing your stress and you're managing your recovery and change happens over a longer amount of time, but it's very much a lasting change. It takes a lot of work to build muscle. You can start to see the effects pretty soon if you're new to training. But when you look at people who are really jacked, they've been doing it for a long time and you can really appreciate how much work went into that body composition changes. It's so hard. It's so hard to make those decisions every day and to kind of learn how to be at peace with the discomfort of saying no to things that you really want to say yes to, but the end, actually there's not even an end anymore, it becomes infinite. And that's another mindset change is. You know, when you're organized with your training, it's just this repetitive cycle of learning, trying something and learning, trying something and learning instead of the mindset of well, as soon as I do this, I'll be happy, huge shift.

Philip Pape: 15:17

There's no end point. We're so on the same page.

Lisa: 15:20

man, I have there's a buddy of mine he's another lifter.

Philip Pape: 15:23

We he and I are like Socrates philosophers the way we get into the same kind of stuff. And we're like man. We just love the process. You really fall in love with that process, even though it's always hard, like I think that's an important message.

Philip Pape: 15:36

It's never easy, but, like, the things that come out of it make your ability to interact with the world way easier. I would argue right and I think you're arguing that to some extent in that the things that become hard with age and frailty are not going to be the hard things you have to deal with as much because you're dealing with the. You have the voluntary hardship today. Right, it's the term you guys use. You also said you become at peace with discomfort, which is again amazing because it's the concept of ever changing, always changing and growing, and not just sitting back. So what are your thoughts on? Like dopamine hits and endorphins from exercise, which get a lot of play out there, that is an instant gratification, is it not?

Niki Sims: 16:15

Oh yeah, and I love that. I love that.

Philip Pape: 16:18

I am here, for it.

Niki Sims: 16:21

And I think it's important to have stuff like that in there, but it does change over time. You know, a dopamine hit for me now, like I do spin classes. I live across the street when I'm in California from a great spin studio, and that has sometimes a probably positive effect on my conditioning, but sometimes I can go too hard with it and it actually steals from my recovery. I accept this, but in that space it is a huge mental break for me, and it is such a win that I come out of there less stressed, and so that's a huge win. So that's important, but I also know that is not contributing to my muscle building. It's not how I lose weight. I don't care how many calories I burn, it is just for fun.

Niki Sims: 17:14

And other dopamine comes from, or dopamine hits can come from. You know, marking your workout complete, that counts Same as, or not even as big, but hitting a PR boom, that's a huge one. The interesting part of that, though, is you hit a lot of PRs in the beginning, and you get addicted to that, but it's not going to happen very much, as you know, as you keep lifting, so it's not a huge like ah, this is the best, I'm only going to get better and better. You're going to squat 225 a million times in your life where it used to be one arm.

Philip Pape: 17:47

Your new PR is my shoulder didn't hurt after those presses. Yes.

Niki Sims: 17:52

Yeah. So you have to know like and you've experienced this, like you have you know, 20% of your workout days are full of those kinds of dopamine hits Like everything's awesome, you hit some PRs, or it's just a really good day, and then some days are the complete opposite Nothing feels good. You have an old tweak that's acting up, the music is crappy and even though it's your own music but today it just sounds so dumb and you cannot get into your workout and you just want to throw a tantrum. But you could do the exact same work and have two different experiences, and your body still needs it.

Philip Pape: 18:28

I feel you all the way you just look for those wins, whatever it is. I was joking with some buddies where I had 395 on the bar and they're like, why don't you just go to 400? I'm like, well, the math works out that way because I'm progressing. Last year last week at 385. I'm doing 4055 next week and I actually responded something nerdy, like it's, I'm holding my mental reserve until I go to four plates next week or something.

Philip Pape: 18:50

You know what I mean and they're like you know, you gave me, gave me shit for it, but um, uh, yeah. And if you guys look at, if you look at nikki's game face after she does her deadlift on instagram, you can see this like satisfaction right after that rep. That's just a subtle difference. It's like yeah, some people are like I will clap myself.

Niki Sims: 19:09

I'll be like yeah, it's good stuff, it's such a good feeling.

Philip Pape: 19:15

So before we I do want to get into the whole building muscle science and everything, but before we do that, is there another extreme where you can be too strong or too muscular. I just want to get that out of the way, sure.

Niki Sims: 19:26

Well, I talk about this with nutrition a lot.

Niki Sims: 19:30

I don't love saying that a certain food is healthy or not, because I think it comes down to the quantity of any food.

Niki Sims: 19:39

Like cashews, you might hear that they're healthy, but if your diet only consists of cashews, not so healthy, especially if you're trying to not gain body fat. So, similar to training, there can be a point at which the pursuit of muscle actually starts to deteriorate your health, which could be, you know, if you start using supplements, that you know, if you start using a lot of steroids like that can have a very ill effect on your heart. So it's whenever you start doing things that are at all costs. How is it influencing your internal organs? How is it influencing your connective tissue? Are you able to enjoy your life outside of the gym or are you just saying no to everything because you're too exhausted, or you believe that the only way you can obtain joy is by being the most muscular person in the world, or for yourself? So if you start making trade-offs for your health, your heart, your joints and in your life outside the gym, then I think that that can become too much. It's probably not what you actually want.

Philip Pape: 20:44

Yeah, I'm glad you put that in the context of you've got a system. Is your life Like you've got more things? It's not that they have to be in quote unquote balance. I don't like that term necessarily, because things get more important sometimes and then less others. Sure, in my opinion. But you're right, I was thinking about how some guys push the deadlift so hard that they might have some low back fatigue right, or they're doing a bunch of RDLs or whatever, and now their wife asked them to help out with something they're like sorry, I'm too sore for my lifting and that thought goes through my head.

Philip Pape: 21:13

And my wife's. Like the cinder block is frozen to the ground because it's like nine degrees here. Can you pick it up Now? In that case, I couldn't get it, but there's something called leverage. So if you're an engineer.

Philip Pape: 21:22

You know you can use a pole. Anyway, that's a good one, all right. So let's get into the building muscle. So where do we want to start? Let's start with you, because some of my followers I said Nikki's coming on, they were like gaga about it and they wanted to hear your, some of your story. I don't want to do the whole thing here, but the strong, the skinny to strong, right and like, and then specifically like, we want to hear about bulking phases you've gone through and then maybe we could parallel that with some of the generalities and science behind it.

Philip Pape: 21:54

So, yeah, go for it.

Niki Sims: 21:56

Short story was I was a gym rat in high school. I tried to play sports. I was terrible at it. The coaches were like what have I done? She's tall and useless, and so team sports were never for me.

Niki Sims: 22:09

But I loved being at the gym, which eventually led me to meeting CrossFit and I really enjoyed CrossFit. My boyfriend at the time and I were just doing it at the gym some sort of pull-ups and squats and whatever. And then a gym opened up and we started going to those classes and I really, really enjoyed it. I loved the community. It was the first time I really had fun working with the barbell. I don't remember a lot of it, but I remember doing really dumb things, like really ugly power cleans and this one I'm really embarrassed to admit, but I have used a band and added weight to myself to do chin-ups, thinking that I was doing weighted chin-ups Interesting, Very shameful. I wake up at nine and just like oh, I can't believe I did that, but you know that's what. And like no, CrossFit coach was like that's not really working, which is like such a.

Philip Pape: 23:01

So you were just making yourself heavier, but then still using a band. Yes, that's okay, interesting.

Niki Sims: 23:05

You know, I didn't know what I was doing, but I think pretty shortly after that I had $1,000 in a weekend. So I went and got a CrossFit cert and I started just coaching at that gym there and I was working in construction management at the time. That's what I got my degree in. But I wasn't happy there and I was happy at CrossFit. So I was like, all right, let's leave this job and start doing CrossFit full time. And then I did.

Niki Sims: 23:28

The other thing that always happens in CrossFit is you believe you can do it better than they're doing, so you open up your own gym. So back in I think it was 2009, we opened up a CrossFit gym back in New Mexico and so lots of barbell fun taught me how to build community, and it was four years later that I encountered starting strength, which totally that flipped another switch of oh my gosh, I just want to get strong, and now I can see that there's a program to do so and that sounds amazing. So the joy for CrossFit decreased and the interest in dedicated barbell strength training really increased, and so I pivoted from CrossFit to becoming a private or personal strength coach. I'll say it that way Moved to San Francisco, moved to Atlanta and that's when online coaching started back in 2016 and then eventually wound up here in SoCal working for Barbellogic Online Coaching. So through that journey it was like kind of being a gym rat getting more into the barbell, barbell via CrossFit and then just boom, full barbell.

Philip Pape: 24:39

I'm smiling because it sounds like me. I mean not to make it about me, but it's so funny because I was in CrossFit for eight years. Yeah, and it sounds like me. I mean not to make it about me, but it's so funny because I was in CrossFit for eight years and my coach, who owned the gym, he kind of evolved away from CrossFit himself. He was more into just straight up lifting and powerlifting and whatnot. And then I discovered starting strength in like 2020, during the pandemic.

Philip Pape: 24:57

You know it's funny how many people came that route and that's how I found out about you guys too, cause I know you kind of branched off from that and a few other guys, like barbell medicine, you know, met Jordan on the podcast too and stuff. So okay, so that's like the what and it's good. People understand like hey, crossfit, there's maybe a place for it, there's the barbell piece, there's the community. There's definitely a lot of things that are maybe detrimental, especially if you go too crazy with it and you can get injured and stuff. We all know this, we all know that.

Niki Sims: 25:29

Yeah, Well, they're like. I think there are three pathways. You find out you're really good at CrossFit and you become a CrossFit athlete. That's for you know not that many people. You get hurt and you leave, or you get into barbell training. Yes, yeah.

Philip Pape: 25:39

You don't get great results and then you go into barbell training. All of a sudden the world changes. So that's what people want to understand is like okay, what happened? Like so you're still doing that because obviously it's given you something. Did the change happen pretty quickly, Like your strength doubled in a few months doing the novice linear progression, and what did that look like?

Niki Sims: 25:58

It did, yeah, and I had been, you know, doing CrossFit for many years by the time I did the novice linear progression. But yeah, I got much stronger. I wish I could remember my numbers, but I remember being stuck at a 200-pound squat for a really long time, definitely got past that eventually. It took me ages to squat 300 pounds but I finally did it. But getting to two plates was really fun.

Philip Pape: 26:20

There's a lot of guys that can't do 300.

Niki Sims: 26:22

After that I was like, cool, I'm retiring the squatting, I get it. But yeah, I think I got my deadlift up to fives at 265 at some point, maybe more, I can't remember, but that was like pretty good in the CrossFit world. So you know, even with going to the gym that many times and being that invested in constantly varied functional fitness, yeah right.

Niki Sims: 26:45

Yeah, I wasn't as strong as I could be, and so I got stronger. Once I had a dedicated program Right, and then, even since then, I've gotten stronger, you know, as evidenced by weight on the bar in certain lifts. But I've only continued to put on muscle and while not all my numbers have gone up that entire time, I have put on more muscle.

Philip Pape: 27:09

That's an important distinction, yeah.

Niki Sims: 27:10

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 27:11

So let's link that to what you did to make that happen. Right, there's obviously the training and the lifting, and then nutrition is a huge part of this. Yeah, so over the last when did you start starting strength? What year was that?

Niki Sims: 27:23

13.

Philip Pape: 27:24

Okay, so it's been a little over 10 years, so it's been like 12 years. Yeah, like, what did the nutrition look like? And when did you do some periodization, like your first bulk, for example, or first cut or whatever? How does that look?

Niki Sims: 27:37

I think one of my my most notable bulks was it wasn't really an intentional bulk, but it was a really stressed out bulk I got divorced and I wanted to leave my gym and I moved to another state and then I didn't have anywhere to live. So it was like in a year I left my gym and I moved to San Francisco and I had to live in this Airbnb until I found a place to live and I was so stressed out I was just eating jelly beans, thinking that I need the carbs to lift and enjoying San Francisco, which is such a fun city. But I got up to my heaviest, which I think I was like 185 at my very heaviest. And that's when I was like, oh my gosh, I do not like this at all and I think my lifting was going well. But I was so uncomfortable in my body so I did a cut through macro tracking. I did. If it fits your macros, I'd eventually got down like 30 pounds to 155 and I competed in a meet at that time.

Niki Sims: 28:40

So since then my body weight goes as high as 170, 172. And that's as much as I'm comfortable. I don't feel comfortable above 170. And it's not a payoff in my training anymore. Okay, a bunch of weight, I'm going to get stronger. No, that's not going to happen to me anymore. In fact, it just makes me really uncomfortable. And really to add muscle, you don't have to be in a tremendous caloric surplus. You really don't. It's not 1000 calories a day, it's like 300 calories a day, depending on how much you weigh going into it. So that's another interesting thing to take away from this is like you can do GoMad. You can put on a bunch of weight, you will get stronger, but I don't think you need to go to that extreme.

Philip Pape: 29:29

Right, right. Yeah, GoMad's a whole separate thing. Yeah, I couldn't even do GoMad if I tried. It's just too much milk. But it's funny because you say it's only 300 calories and I know when I see typical bulks it's like between 150 and three, maybe 400 calories. You know, for the average person and for some men it might be higher. Right, but 300 calorie surplus might sound crazy to a lot of people listening or a lot of women listening. I want to address that topic of the fear not just of getting bulky, but specifically gaining weight on purpose, Because I did a podcast episode recently or right before the end of the year, called like the most underrated fat loss secret keeping you from getting strong, and it was basically like you need to gain weight, Like that was the spoiler alert. It's like you might be dieting too much. So I kind of want to address that, because you just mentioned it doesn't have to be getting fat, it just has to be strategic yeah.

Niki Sims: 30:20

Yeah, and it's so important to learn how to do that, because if you are in a mindset of thinking that you need to work harder and eat less, you actually really end up setting yourself back, sometimes quite significantly, because more likely to get hurt and you can't progress in your training. And if you can get into a little bit of a caloric surplus, as much as you're wanting to do and comfortable doing, you end up learning what it feels like to feel really freaking good in the gym and it is fun. It's really fun. And that whole lesson of recovery and how it's fueled by your nutrition is a big one, because under eating and overtraining is it can be really devastating.

Niki Sims: 31:10

I went through a period of doing that and that's where I was my most injured and that has set me back in a few ways for a really long time and the mindset and I think this is really important for women. You don't have to max out your energy expenditure when you're training and I think this is really important for women. You don't have to max out your energy expenditure when you're training and it's like working out is not the reward for or it's not the punishment for eating. The goal is to feel energized when you're training. And to train four times a week? If you don't have to do it seven days a week, you don't have to feel starving. What if you felt really powerful and good while you're working out and you could end a session excited for the next one because you know you can do more? Such a different way to be.

Philip Pape: 31:59

It is. And again, going back to one of your recent posts on IG where you did like doubles I think it was for 300, whatever. It was like sub max doubles on your deadlift and you said this is recoverable. Like you're, like, I'm done and this is. It was a good turn. Like at first, I'm like do you mean, did you get injured or something? What do you mean? And I'm like, oh, she's talking about the fact that she's managing her stress and recovery.

Niki Sims: 32:18

to come back a few days later, a week later, and do more.

Philip Pape: 32:21

Yeah, you're right, because it's not. You know, you're not burning calories, you're not trying to get your heart rate up, you are training. You're training, yes, and you're powerful.

Niki Sims: 32:28

Yeah, there's more, there's more. There's going to be more time. It never ends.

Philip Pape: 32:31

It never ends, but that's a good thing, so okay. So this like not wanting to push too hard, like you talked about your comfort level, at whatever that was 180, or you said 172. 170 something, yeah, and I imagine a lot of women don't quite know where that is yet. Or even, what would you say to someone who the only time they've ever gained weight in the past was accidentally and it was fat because they weren't training?

Niki Sims: 32:57

Yeah, why is this so different? This is different because your calories are going to be coming from food that's really useful to what you're doing, meaning you know how much protein you're getting and you're also filling in the calories with fruits and vegetables and fiber. Nutrient-dense food.

Philip Pape: 33:15

It's not pop tarts, it's not a bloat.

Niki Sims: 33:17

It's not sugar, it's not booze, yeah, and there's a place for stuff like that, absolutely, and I think it's really important to have, you know, those delicious things in there. But it's coming from a place that's driving your body growing in a good way, building muscle, and it's also at an amount that you are in control of. It's not an uncontrollable amount, it's not an uncontrollable rate, and so it's not a runaway train of Girl's cat cookies. It's a strategic amount of increase and so you're still in the driver's seat and you know that you get to have fun with that weight when you're strategically gaining weight and in terms of like how you look because you are, what I have found for myself is I will only compare myself to when I was very lean and I forget about all the other days that existed when I wasn't that, and I will decide that I was at my happiest at this moment in time and I imagine that I was like that all the time and that's not the case and you'll and especially with women you go through like so many changes throughout the month. You basically get four of you for the price of one where you're like really happy and lean, and then you're really fluffy and tired and we can sometimes only remember or believe that that current reality is the forever reality and forget all of the cycles that actually exist.

Niki Sims: 34:49

But the discomfort that can come from gaining weight, I think can be solved by knowing that it's not forever and something as simple as wearing the right clothes. It's such a hack that I find is really worth it. You might have clothes that work really really well when you're at the skinniest part of your cycle and you might have clothes that make you look freaking amazing when you're in the thicker part of your cycle and play to the strengths of your body. I think it's totally fine to do that, because if you're trying to gain weight, you are going to gain circumference in places. Get the clothes that look good on you, yeah, and if you don't, it's honestly just like torturing yourself.

Philip Pape: 35:32

Yeah, and resolve to the fact that you're going to need different sizes, and probably forever, if you're going to periodize like we do, I know I have two or three different sizes of different clothes and I'm like all right, these shirts no longer fit right now. I'm going to switch to these loose ones over here.

Niki Sims: 35:45

And you'll look better when you put them on. And then you're like, oh okay, this is okay and it's just the number on the brand. I wear so many different brands and the sizes aren't consistent and we can get into a whole destructive thought process around that. But you're building your body. Show off what you're building. It's not easy, but do yourself a favor and celebrate it, because it looks really good. When you start getting thicker legs and a thicker butt and your back gets muscular, get a new sports bra that shows it off. Don't get the one that's just like a little pinchy for size two girls, not worth it.

Philip Pape: 36:20

I agree and as a man and I am married and I love my wife, she's attractive and this is not a but um, I can tell a woman who lifts and is strong and even if she's totally dressed up, um, you know, you, you even see it in the face, but in a good way, like there's this muscularity, there's a strength there. That's really good. And I like the way you reframe all that, because some of us gain fat in different areas and I hear that comment as well Like, well, you know, I gain it all in my stomach or I gain it all in my butt. I'm a guy, I gain it in my butt. It's weird. And you know you gain it in certain areas, yeah Right. And so you're like, but embrace that, because maybe that helps your leverages or squat or whatever. You know, you never know.

Niki Sims: 36:58

Yeah, it's discomforting in the times when you're looking at yourself in the mirror in a certain light, in a certain outfit, but it's really good when you are deadlifting, when you are squatting, when you are benching, when you are actively trying to build. You cannot build if you don't have enough, and so once you do it and you put in the work and you see your new shape, it's really really fun because you know it took a lot of work.

Philip Pape: 37:25

A hundred percent. A hundred percent, yeah, and it happens fairly fast. If you're a beginner, it happens fast. And why wait? Like I always say, why wait? You know somebody, she's you know somebody reaches out and they're 60 years old. I've never built muscle, like, don't wait, don't wait till you're 70. Do it now? Yeah, I also have there's a male client I have who's never built muscle in his life, older client, and he's like three weeks in and already expressing some of these fears himself, like it happens to men too. He's like I'm feeling frumpy, I'm feeling puffy, like, and some of these symptoms are just, are more of a fluid retention issue initially.

Niki Sims: 37:58

Very helpful to know that and maybe we can talk about that. Does your body adapt to that? Is that something you have to get used to? Like it's great? Take that as well and also just know that when you don't want to see that bloat, you can make it go away very quickly, like when, for example, when bodybuilders get ready to do a show to. From what I understand, they don't do legs for like a week or something and you would think they'd be doing a bunch of legs, but like a big, heavy leg day, it makes you retain more fluid and you'll even see that in your waist measurement.

Philip Pape: 38:46

And the scale.

Niki Sims: 38:47

Yeah, and the scale yeah.

Philip Pape: 38:49

Yeah, yeah, cause they'll, they will drink a ton of water, uh, to get their body to start releasing water as an adaptation, and then they'll stop drinking water and then they'll release more water and get dehydrated.

Niki Sims: 38:59

Yes, to go along with.

Philip Pape: 39:00

What you're saying is avoiding the inflammation from the bigger. That's pretty cool stuff to understand when bodybuilders manipulate it. Yeah.

Niki Sims: 39:07

Yeah. So even when I do like my measurements and I'm just like, okay, well, these are the measurements. After like a mega leg day, they're going to be a little bit bigger.

Philip Pape: 39:15

Yeah.

Niki Sims: 39:15

Okay.

Philip Pape: 39:16

Yeah, that's good to know too. If you have like a shifted training schedule and then you're taking measurements the same day every week, that might throw off the numbers schedule and then you're taking measurements the same day every week, that might throw off the numbers. That's good to know. Yeah, you said so. A couple other things I wanted to address. One is the duration of a bulk, what you like, because I've heard different recommendations from different experts. I have my own thoughts. Like I think you should bulk for plenty, like six, nine, 12 months. If you can help it just to kind of get into that super anabolic mindset, just keep going, but you also don't want to gain too much.

Niki Sims: 39:50

So what are your thoughts on length of a bulk that would have to do. I mean a big kind of buffer I would put. There would be your waist measurement. The classic waist measurement that is correlated with more health risk is a 40 inch waist for men, Like if you, if your waist starts getting over 40 and you're not like a huge guy who's also super muscular, that is a measurement where, when you're around that range, like okay, this might be the time to pull it back a little bit and get under 40 safely for a while.

Niki Sims: 40:20

I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. And then thinking of what you want because if you're bulking for a year, I think that's an important thing to keep in mind and then thinking of what you want, because if you're bulking for a year, you have to think, well, what do I want the next year? Am I okay with this? Do I just want to do a little cut and be like five pounds lighter? Am I actually really happy? Are you doing this for you? Are you doing this because someone said that it's important that you can lift a certain mountain and the only way you can do that is by gaining 40 pounds? You know, I think it's always just a question of is this what you want now, six months from now, and maybe like a year from now?

Niki Sims: 40:58

I've been thinking just in the timescale for women, like when we get into this age range of early 40s, when our body is just going to be like hey, did you enjoy yourself, Did you have fun? Well, too bad, it's over now. I'm just going to really mess with you for the next five years. It becomes so much harder to lose body fat. I feel like um kind of ticking time clock now where it's like I don't want to go into the throes of menopause with extra body fat because it's only going to get harder to lose it and I don't want to have to fight that battle as much as I might have to if I go in with a lot of body fat. So I'm trying to like prepare for that part of my life by being muscular and, you know, comfortably lean, because I don't want to have to be, you know, without any estrogen and exhausted and mad at the world and fat.

Philip Pape: 41:54

Yeah, and you're hitting on like. What we know is the main cause of like a dropping metabolism and menopause is the hormonal changes causing muscle loss, which then you gain fat, cause you're not eating any less and then it just spirals, yeah, so so wait, going back to the bulk, if you tie this to, no, no, it's okay, no, it's all related, right, it's good to know If we tie this to. I'm only 40 years old, nikki, just you're young, you're so young.

Philip Pape: 42:18

You got years. I'm 44 and I'm younger than I've ever been. That's the way to reframe it, right, yeah? So if we go way back to a comment you made about like a 300 calorie surplus, I don't know about you, I like to use 2,500 calories per pound for building.

Philip Pape: 42:31

Oh, okay, because of like the density between fat and muscle, and if you assume 50-50 fat, muscle, blah, blah, blah, all the nerdy stuff, it comes out to like 3.6 pounds a month. So that would be, then, like 40 pounds for a year If you just built, built, built, built, built, built, built. You know. Now, granted, if you were going to build for a year, you might not want to go that aggressively, you know, to make all the trade-offs. So that's kind of like what I was asking. I like that. You came from the perspective of well, you don't want to be too big for metabolic health reasons. You also don't want to be uncomfortably large where now you're just like a far cry away from your lean goal. So is there a minimum though that you're like you got to at least build for a certain amount of time in a surplus.

Niki Sims: 43:14

What kind of experience level are we talking about that?

Philip Pape: 43:18

is a good question. I guess we're talking to people who've never bulked before, so we can go with early intermediate kind of deal. They've been training for a bit and like on the thinner side, that's another good question. Yeah, let's say yeah, let's say for. So for a male, what are we talking about? Let's say, 20% body fat, where you actually do have a little bit of fluff right and you haven't gotten all the way to as lean as you want to get. But maybe you had a fat loss phase to get you there. At least that's a common situation, I see, where people have a lot of fat to lose. They lose some of it, they're not quite there and then they want to build.

Niki Sims: 43:50

Yeah, I would, man for someone like that, they probably. First we need to figure out what they're actually eating and get to like a stabilized caloric intake and it's very likely that, you know, I'll probably start with four to 500 calories a day extra because their training is going to go from nothing to something big. You know, and see how they respond to that. I like to give nutrition changes three weeks of consistency before I make a change and if I find that they're feeling energized, they're recovering, and if I do see a half a pound to a pound a week of increase, then we're in a good spot right there.

Philip Pape: 44:34

Cool, yeah, I like that. You said start a bit aggressively because again people are afraid they're going to just blow up and gain a bunch of weight. But are you doing that because you know there's this hump to get over and also perhaps that your metabolism is going to start ramping up, cause you said, the training becomes like you have more volume in you, more intensity, the weight's going up faster all that.

Niki Sims: 44:49

Yeah, Like you go from squatting 95 pounds a week and then you know, not that, long after you're at, like you almost double that and the there's a delayed onset of nutrition effect where you know it goes both ways, unfortunately. Like you can be in a deficit and not really know it, and then you feel it two weeks later when you're just like, oh my God, I feel terrible when I'm training, Like I'm just so under recoverance because, well, you might've been in a deficit for a while and now you're realizing it because your training output is really high.

Philip Pape: 45:19

It's the hunger during a build that people talk about.

Niki Sims: 45:27

Yeah, how am I hungry? I'm like because you actually need the food. It hasn't happened yet, yeah. And so, yeah, when you're about to really increase the amount of tonnage someone is working with, from zero to thousands and thousands, you need to prepare them and you need to prepare the habits, because it takes a while to figure out how to get 150 to 200 grams of protein a day. You're really changing how you're living by where you go to the grocery store, what you buy at the grocery store, learning how to prepare chicken in a way where it's not gross. So there are a lot of habits that have to be established, and so it's okay to get that moving along pretty quickly. Yeah, for sure, takes a while, totally agree.

Philip Pape: 46:02

And the good thing about a bulk I would say is or maybe tell me if you agree or not but like it's asymmetrical, like fat loss versus bulking, it's not. It's not really two sides of the same coin. Like bulking, you have all this energy coming in right. Fat loss, you're really stealing lots of resources from your body.

Niki Sims: 46:30

So it's not like they're just the opposite. Does that make sense? Do you know what I'm saying? Totally agree. Yeah, very, very different way of experiencing the changes and making choices. You know, when you're when you only have so many calories and you're in a deficit, you're like, well, should I have this piece of bacon or should I have this type of meat? And it's like when you're in a surplus, you're like mom, both. It's great, life is good.

Philip Pape: 46:46

It's true. Where's the next one? I don't have enough.

Niki Sims: 46:51

And you have to like really partition your energy and be like well, I need to make sure I have this amount by this time or else I'm going to become a hangry monster at 4 pm. So let me make sure I do this. And, like you have to math out your day so much differently because just you're hungry and all you, sometimes all you can think about is your next meal. It's really hard.

Philip Pape: 47:09

Which is another reason you want to bulk a lot if you can like, if you can spend a lot of the year not dieting. I should say not necessarily you know, yeah, which gives you.

Philip Pape: 47:17

then you know, what are your thoughts on having more muscle and having a higher metabolism? And I ask it because I feel like there's some myths or people overestimate the contribution of muscle mass to calorie burn. But I do think the fact that you can carry more weight and you have more muscle and you can train more with more load and tonnage, that's what burns more calories. But like what do you think?

Niki Sims: 47:40

I totally agree, and as far as I understand, there are some people that have to get down to really low amounts of calorie to lose weight and that's pretty challenging, even when they are muscled. There's definitely a genetic range in there, true, but if you do have that, I call it like an. It's a. It's an expensive tissue to maintain, which is what I want. Like, I want that muscle tissue because it needs a lot to be happy. That is beneficial because, like you said, you can burn more calories while you're working out, even though it's not exactly what matters as much, it's just that you can burn more calories between your training sessions and you get to eat more to support that, which is really way more fun, like some of my friends, when they're trying to lose weight, like they're down and like 1500 calories and I'm just like, wow, I'm at like 2100 in a deficit.

Philip Pape: 48:31

Like and that's all carb difference. Right there, too, you're like differencing keto and like 150 grams of carbs or something. Oh man, yeah. And speaking of that you did mention earlier uh, we joked about the pop tarts, but it is. We are on the same page. I think people need to understand that you need to be eating a lot of whole foods and nutritious foods that support your performance, but there's plenty of room for other indulgences in there, and you should have a flexible diet. So I don't think we have there's no argument there. So I guess, when we talk about women being bulky and the physique side of it and the muscle you mentioned earlier, you can get stronger to a point. At some point the muscle keeps going. What is that like? Where does that come from? And then what's happening? And then what does that kind of look like for a woman?

Niki Sims: 49:14

The way I learned this was by getting really hurt, okay, and that happened because I was training really really hard. I was doing jujitsu three to five times a week and I was lifting really heavy four times a week. I was very, very lean, so I was not recovering, and it was during that time when I hurt my back. I don't have a diagnosis, I don't know what happened, but I can say my ability to lift kept decreasing, which meant my ability to perform a squat and a deadlift to the full range of motion I was unable to do without pain, and the amount of weight I could do in any range of motion decreased to the point where it was zero across every way. And that's a huge identity crisis, because this is what I do for a living.

Lisa: 50:06

It's what I've been doing for almost 20 years.

Niki Sims: 50:09

What am I going to do with my life now? I'm also a coach. I got to figure this out and I just knew okay, if I can't do those lifts that I have built my house upon, I still need to build muscle. What am I going to do to build the muscle? So it went from this shift of just being dogmatic and thinking like I must do these lifts and I must see the weight on the bar go up to thinking like, well, this is what I can do. How do I do the right amount? What is challenging like and what does progress look like?

Niki Sims: 50:44

And so that shifted to going to the gym using machines that I could do, learning what machines I couldn't do, doing unilateral work at the gym and do a lot of machines that kind of make you tired but it's not really useful.

Niki Sims: 51:06

And so it went from figuring out how big of a movement can I do, just like we do on a squat You're using your hips and your knees and your back. How close can I get to simulating that kind of training movement? And then I would just kind of dial it back to being more isolated, based on how I was feeling during that time, and eventually I was able to get back to squatting, even though my back still doesn't really like it. But I was able to get back to deadlifting gradually over time. But I was able to still challenge, whether it be one muscle group at a time or several muscle groups at a time, in a way that was hard but doable and recoverable. And so amazing. You can still build muscle and you don't have to squat, even though I still advocate for the squat, just for the record.

Philip Pape: 51:56

Yes, yes, and it is not mutually exclusive. And what you're saying hits really hard with a lot of people as they get older and go through training either training injuries or just injuries from real life. Usually that's where you get injured. It's just life. And myself included, I had a back surgery, an appendectomy a month later and then rotator cuff surgery last year and through each of those it's kind of like oh no, I can't do certain things, but what can you do? Like what can you do? And there's even this like cross-education effect where you can use one side of your body and it will translate to maintaining muscle on the other. So no excuses, people, right? Nikki's telling you that like, you can learn from that. Those experiences, yeah.

Niki Sims: 52:34

Go, you know, get out of your comfort zone. Go to the gym. You know, I know a lot of listeners probably make fun of people in the gym doing God knows what, but when you are in this position of not being able to do the things that worked in the past, like it's time to start having an open mind and get down to the principles of hard but doable and recoverable. Yeah, and you can make that work in a lot of different domains.

Philip Pape: 52:57

ABT always be training I just made that up?

Niki Sims: 52:59

Yes, always be training.

Philip Pape: 53:00

It's funny because the people I follow now you know I also came through starting strength and you know they get accused of being a little dogmatic, but they're for a certain population, you know, they're for the novice who can do all these things. But, like Andy Baker you mentioned, he was just on the show talking about all the ways you can squat if you don't want to or can't do low bar, or if it's not right for you, right Like if you're trying to hit your quads and build those suckers. That's not going to be the quote unquote optimal to do that. Lauren Colenso-Simple, she was on the show, she's in mass. She talks about machines being just as effective if you're, like you said, using the movement pattern. So people you can train no matter what. And so, with that in mind, what would you say are the non-negotiables, besides finding a way and doing it consistently? What are the non-negotiables when it comes to building muscle for women that they have to have in their pillars, their foundation?

Niki Sims: 53:51

I think you got to squat Cool Because you move your hips, you move your knees, you learn how to engage all of your abdominal muscles, all of your back muscles, and you just get such a big bang for your buck. It is such a crucial part of a training program and if you can't squat, I recommend a leg press although there are a lot of different leg presses in there that vary from great to crappy or a belt squat, but a big leg movement also deadlift. Pretty much everybody can deadlift. I don't know if I've met anybody who couldn't deadlift, but that is a really important one because you are very likely going to lift the most amount of weight that you possibly can in a deadlift. Depending on how you're built, it's going to be the deadlift or the squat, but you can impart such a huge training effect on your body. It's so much more impactful to do like a couple sets of five deadlift than do like an hour long orange theory class.

Philip Pape: 54:58

I'm so glad you said that I was doing rack pulls the other day. I'm like I know what you mean. You just feel it everywhere. You gotta take a nap right after.

Niki Sims: 55:06

Like it's big but you gotta spend some time buying into that, like it takes a while to to build everything stronger together. Usually what happens and that's when we see like the back start to round and the deadlift is usually the form breakdown. There are a lot of little muscles going on in the back. It's a huge system of joints and insertions and origins and at a a certain point, parts of your body are going to become stronger than others and so it's kind of going to feel like two steps forward, one step back for a while. But over time and over time you learn how to be strong as your whole self. And that's what I love about the deadlift, and I think this is what some people experience with a squat. I think I've maybe done like four squats in my life where I'm like, yeah, that felt good.

Philip Pape: 55:53

But like I'm so with you there, no wonder I like you so much, like I love the deadlift.

Niki Sims: 55:58

It's 100 pounds more than my squat, so yeah, but you feel like you can use your every cell and be completely present with what you're doing. I have never felt what I have felt in a max deadlift in anything else in my life. It is the pure experience of being alive and doing something huge and it's so fun. And you got to learn how to do that because, like I said, I just don't think there's anything like it.

Philip Pape: 56:28

My God, I trained this morning and I want to go out and do a deadlift already. I know, right Today, I need to recover. It's so good it is. It is so good Seriously. Have you found people with back pain feel better after they start deadlifting?

Niki Sims: 56:40

Oh yes.

Philip Pape: 56:40

Yes, so people are aware.

Niki Sims: 57:06

That's a, and women who I train, who are pregnant, they're like I just want to squat. It feels so good, I just want to squat. And I'm like, okay, well, we might, we can also maybe take out your deadlift. And they're like no, my lower back is just like you know, they have relaxin, so their hips are like separating, and learning how to brace actually feels really good. So the deadlift feels really good for them too. So those two movements, I think they've got to be in your game at varying degrees over time, but those are so big, and then you got to do some upper body stuff too. I think rows are really, really important Bench pressing, overhead pressing, multi-joint movements where you can eventually move a lot of weight and eventually move a lot of weight.

Lisa: 57:28

Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, philip Pate. With his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful app called Macro Factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and he really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me. So thank you, willow.

Philip Pape: 58:11

This is kind of an off the wall question because when I think of rows I also think, you know, people do a lot of mid-back type rows, like the barbell row, or they'll do more cheater style rows, like upright angles, but I don't think a lot of people put as much credence into rotator cuff health and, like you know, scapular retraction type, like higher level rows. What are your thoughts on that and like, maybe your favorite types of rotator cuff specific work?

Niki Sims: 58:35

Man, that's a great question. I can't say I've gotten too nerdy in that, usually like like shoulder vegetables, like or like you got to eat your broccoli, so like um, light banded work, or like face pulls stuff like that sure I don't know if these count, but straight arm, lat pull downs.

Philip Pape: 58:51

Those just feel really good oh yeah, okay, I get it yeah, it's straight almost like a pullover, but standing yeah yeah, those just feel amazing.

Niki Sims: 59:00

Nice dumbbell rows you can have a lot more variety on. You know, if you're how much weight you're doing, you can change how you're raising the weight, if you're pulling it back towards your hip. Or if you're how much weight you're doing, you can change how you're raising the weight If you're pulling it back towards your hip or if you're changing the angle with your rowing and with that type of accessory work. I found times when it's useful to you know, go for the heaviness place in your program to be used with a, an eccentric or a pause, because then you really actually start to feel what it's like to use your rotator cuff and to stabilize your shoulder and like, oh yeah, that feels really, really good, which helps your bench press and you know all the big things.

Philip Pape: 59:39

Yeah, yeah, because that's I mean, at least I see it like shoulder health is probably yeah, other than low. Back by the most common complaint for people All right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't come. Yeah, exactly yeah, and a lot of lifters and coaches have their own personal experience with that too. Okay, so the last piece here I think wanted to cover you mentioned it a couple of times was the longevity piece, and also you talked about living in the world functionally being useful. How does the physical strength relate to the mental resilience in that longevity? So by longevity I didn't just mean health span, although that is important, but more of the training longevity and the mental longevity and the stress resilience and all of that stuff that you kind of alluded to earlier. Am I making sense?

Niki Sims: 1:00:25

Can you phrase it one more different way?

Philip Pape: 1:00:27

Let's talk about mental health and the impact. Let's do it that way, just say mental health, yeah, that sounds great.

Niki Sims: 1:00:32

So the way I have found it to be useful is it teaches you how to be present with something, and in a world where we're so easily distracted, that really becomes a skill to hone. When you have the bar on your back or in your hands, you are rewarded for how present you are. You do not want to be distracted. You can tell when you're trying to think about too many things and you feel how great a rep can be when you're focused on like one thing at a time. You know what does it feel like to be in my midfoot, what does it feel like to place my knees here, and that's such a great place to be in your brain. And I like to keep my entire training sessions present. I hate when I get down in an email. I don't even like to look at my phone when I train anymore. I just want to listen to my music and I want to do my lifts and to have that kind of sacred space where you can let your brain breathe and just connect with your body. I think having that spot in your calendar is really important for mental health, or else you're spending the rest of your day in a really kind of reactive territory, most likely. So I think that's a big one.

Niki Sims: 1:01:56

And also we touched on this earlier but taking responsibility for yourself. It's your training, it's your eating, it's your body. You are the one who's responsible for it and you can blame stuff on your coach. You can blame stuff on your parents. You are the one who's responsible for it and you can blame stuff on your coach. You can blame stuff on your parents, but you're the one who's making the choices and when you train for a long time, you learn what you have to, I guess, roll with in terms of hormones and energy fluctuations and injuries and stuff like that. But you also learn how to succeed because of what you do and the choices you make and the resources you start to call upon. And that's fun to learn how you can win and you can feel successful and at peace with yourself. I'm glad I asked you the questions.

Niki Sims: 1:02:46

I think about that a lot. I just want to sit on that no for real.

Philip Pape: 1:02:49

Like just you said, we're being rewarded for how present you are. I really love that and it actually makes a good kick in the pants to me too, cause when I lift sometimes I get distracted by emails or whatever. Yeah, and then the opposite would be like, like you said, just being mindful even if you don't listen to music. Try that. I've found that that's an interesting, it is nice to be too, because then you can like almost talk to yourself about the cues and stuff yeah, yeah, one of my favorite things is feeling the midfoot when I'm dead lifting and when I'm squatting.

Niki Sims: 1:03:18

It's the ultimate cue, like if, if something's wrong down there and you fix it, probably something or two or three other things are going to click into place, and that's a fun one because it's I don't know. I just always feel much stronger when I figure out what that feels like. It's a fun one to warm up with too.

Philip Pape: 1:03:35

And I know you're a good coach you probably look at form checks and you can just see that tiny bit of deviation.

Lisa: 1:03:39

you know in the toe or the heel and be like okay, that's what we got to work on.

Philip Pape: 1:03:43

And you also said taking responsibility, which I totally agree. I definitely see a dichotomy in there, in the lifting community, between the folks who are kind of committed to it and they no matter what happens. They're like I'm going to learn from this and I'm going to keep going versus the ones who are like excuse, excuse, excuse, it's like it's not my fault, it's something else.

Niki Sims: 1:04:02

Sure, it's going to happen to you. So what, what?

Philip Pape: 1:04:04

are you going to do with it?

Niki Sims: 1:04:05

Yeah, and that can look like program hopping. It can look like getting the instant fix that is being pushed on you on Instagram. You know biohacking, but when you train for the long haul, when you coach someone for the long haul, that stuff doesn't. It's just kind of noise. You really have to learn how to adapt training to the circumstances of your life yeah, which you have to do all the time, and it translates to life too.

Philip Pape: 1:04:36

Yeah, it just makes. Yeah, translate.

Niki Sims: 1:04:38

So would you say lifting is more art than science, or a little both I think programming has a lot of art to it because you have to be creative. And you have to be creative and you have to elicit an emotion. There's some people who don't really care. They're just like give me my 3x5s, give me my 3x8s, whatever I'll do it. It's great. But when someone is bought into their program, it becomes more effective and the relationship improves. So I think a good coach knows how to program, based on what a client's goals are and what makes them feel good about themselves, and invested in their training. That makes it more successful.

Philip Pape: 1:05:17

Love it All right. Last, or maybe second to last, question would be for any women listening to this right now. She knows she wants to get stronger. She's very inspired. You know how this is like you hear a podcast, you're energized and it falls away if you don't do something. What is she need to do to commit to this? What is the next achievable step?

Niki Sims: 1:05:36

I think you should get a coach, and I say this because I'm a coach, but it's also be and I'm a coach because this is what I believe in. I agree, I'm sure you have coaches too. Yeah, I have a coach, for sure. So many times I get excited about something and then I start to research it and I get completely overwhelmed with all the things that people are telling me I should do. Before I know it, I haven't done anything.

Niki Sims: 1:05:56

But a good coach will find out what's important to you, they will learn about what you have available to you and they will give you the recipe to get started. And that can be the biggest. First step is like get someone to help you get started for your first week or your first month, and then you're going to be on a really good trajectory from there. But I think a coach is a great thing to outsource your training to, because they have so much experience experience and that's what you hire them for. Hire them for their experience. They know better than you. It's like such a good way to respect your own time. If you respect your time, get a coach.

Philip Pape: 1:06:39

No matter how stubborn you are, get a coach, trust me. Yeah, yes, do you know. You know John Patrizzo.

Niki Sims: 1:06:44

Oh my gosh, I love him. Yes, I call him Dr Cargo Shorts.

Philip Pape: 1:06:47

Yeah, yeah, cargo Shorts. Yes, he helped me out early in the year or last year with just coming up with a training program for like one month, you know, as I was dealing with some regression in my post-surgery situation and again I was being really stubborn. I'm like frustrated, frustrating, hitting a wall, hitting a wall. I just got to get a coach. It wasn't even about money or anything, it was just my stubbornness. And way back when I started starting strength, I went to Cody and Eno here in Connecticut and like an hour he fixed, you know, months and months of bad habits even though I read the books, watched the videos, did the things.

Philip Pape: 1:07:20

So, listen to what Nikki's saying, get a coach, yeah, get a coach. All right. So I do like to ask this of all guests, and that is is there anything you wish? I had asked that we didn't cover.

Niki Sims: 1:07:32

I always ask people that's in their PDC interviews. Well, I'm thinking of you know, it seems like every year or I don't know, every stretch of time, there's like a theme in my own lifting around my coaching, and the one that's coming up for me now is just really appreciating time and how important appreciating that as a variable is. It's one that we have no control over, and so the best you can do is appreciate what it can do for the other things that you do have control over. And I keep seeing this as like an example in when I'm programming the deadlift and when I'm doing my own deadlift, it does so well when I don't load it heavy every single week. It needs time.

Niki Sims: 1:08:24

And same thing with nutrition. Your choices they're hard at the day, they're hard for a week, but if you let that pile up for three weeks and six weeks and two months and three months and four months, stuff happens. But you can't control time. And it's a really. It's one that you can only appreciate after you've been doing this for so long and you can feel how it becomes a really special part of your training because it also makes you realize, oh, I have time, I don't have to force this PR right now. I don't have to do a significant deficit. I can do a more conservative deficit. I have time. So really appreciating how that can be a it can't be something that you ignore. You have to, you know, include that in how you're thinking about things.

Philip Pape: 1:09:21

So, guys, nikki just reframed a constant fixed variable that we always think of as limit limitation yeah into an advantage yeah of like you, go through the process and let it percolate, let it marinate, let it ruminate whatever the word is over time that's so good.

Niki Sims: 1:09:39

Yeah, thanks for saying that so eloquently.

Philip Pape: 1:09:42

No, no, you said it, you said elegant, I just built off of it. Um, yeah, you should do a whole like episode about that. On, on on beast over burden.

Niki Sims: 1:09:49

Just talk about time. We keep bringing it up, and I think that's why it's just like. You know, how, how is this? How am I putting so much gravity on this moment versus what if I let myself think of not just this one moment, but the next three weeks? And how does that change the pressure of this decision? It's an important one, yeah.

Philip Pape: 1:10:13

Yeah, and I don't know if this helps or not, but the more you give yourself the time to grow, probably the more time you'll have in your life Like literally, your lifespan and your health span will be longer. So you're almost getting a payback for that investment.

Niki Sims: 1:10:28

Yeah, that is nice to think about. Yeah, to me that just feels like a relief. You don't have to have it all figured out right now. You have to take action. But again, there's never an end. It's just infinite, until you die.

Philip Pape: 1:10:43

Love it All right, this has been a lot of fun. I mean really really so much fun. I'm so glad that we connected and that we were on the show.

Niki Sims: 1:10:50

Thanks for having this podcast.

Philip Pape: 1:10:52

Yeah, yeah. No, it's the labor of love. It came out of my own passion before I ever got into coaching or anything. So keep it going Nice. Um, where should people find you? I want to send them to the best place.

Niki Sims: 1:11:09

So I Instagram.

Philip Pape: 1:11:10

I haven't figured out a good way to say, my Instagram handle yet.

Niki Sims: 1:11:13

Nikkiinthegym. Thank you, yeah, I just need a rapper, I need a hype boy. Nikki in the gym, it's Nikki with one K. There's a period between each word. I'm also at barbelllogiccom slash team. You can just Google Nikki Sims. I think my image search history. There used to be another Nikki Sims that would pop up when you typed that. But she is the Nikki with two Ks and we have very different jobs.

Philip Pape: 1:11:38

Okay, and now I'm curious, but okay.

Niki Sims: 1:11:44

And on YouTube I'm also. What am I? Nikki Sims in the gym.

Philip Pape: 1:11:50

Got it and of course, the podcast.

Niki Sims: 1:11:52

Yeah, yes, yes, come to our podcast. We're Beast Over Burden, powered by Barbell Logic. I'm sorry for the worst delivery of. Where can I find you answers ever? Not at all, not at all, don't worry.

Philip Pape: 1:12:01

I'm just going to edit it all out. I'm just kidding. No, it's all good. It's all good. We'll include those in the show notes. As always, really solid, so much fun. If anybody has questions, you guys should reach out to Nikki for just to answer the question, to say hi, she will respond to you. Love it, you can go to If you need a coach, whatever. Yeah.

Niki Sims: 1:12:18

Yeah, if you want to learn and I am in the abundance mindset of online coaching, like love that people are able to do that. Now, if you want to do a call with us, you can go to barbellogiccom experience. It's a free call with a coach. Again, I just want people to get coaching and that's a way for you to see what it might be like with us or with whoever, so check that out too 100%.

Philip Pape: 1:12:42

Yeah, all right, nikki, it's been so much fun. It's been awesome we're it's been awesome. We're going to get a lot of people strong, bulky jacked, whatever phrase hits with you, down with the thickness.

Lisa: 1:12:52

Yeah, let's get down with the thickness.

Philip Pape: 1:12:54

Yeah, I like it alright. Nikki, thanks so much for coming on thanks for having me.

Niki Sims: 1:12:57

Thanks everybody.

10 Reasons Muscle Burns Even More Calories Than You Think (Thermal Mass) | Ep 291

Get your free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint at witsandweights.com/muscle to optimize your nutrition for maximum muscle growth while minimizing fat gain.

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You've heard that a pound of muscle burns 6-9 calories per day at rest, but most fitness experts stop there.

Discover the engineering concept of Thermal Mass and how it parallels the way muscle tissue creates a metabolic environment that dramatically increases your daily calorie burn through multiple mechanisms most people never consider.

Main Takeaways:

• The commonly cited "6-9 calories per pound" dramatically underestimates muscle's true metabolic impact

• Muscle affects your metabolism in 9 additional ways beyond just its resting calorie burn

• Building muscle creates a body that maintains stable, healthy body composition with greater metabolic flexibility

• The engineering principle of thermal mass provides the perfect analogy for understanding these complex mechanisms

Episode Mentioned:

• The Most UNDERRATED Fat Loss Secret Making You FATTER (and Sabotaging Muscle Gain Too)

Timestamps:

0:02 - Why the standard calculation of muscle's calorie burn is incomplete
4:59 - #1: The 24/7 furnace effect
6:22 - #2: Burn more doing the same thing?
7:17 - #3: Heavier = Leaner
8:12 - #4: The 38-hour afterburn while you sleep
9:54 - #5: How muscles transform fat tissue
11:24 - #6: The training-triggered fat burner
12:40 - #7: A buffer system for metabolic stability
14:30 - #8: Activate calorie-burning brown fat
15:11 - #9: The secret weapon against metabolic slowdown during dieting
16:04 - #10: Creating a metabolic furnace beyond just muscle
17:20 - Practical applications for transforming your physique
21:42 - Philip's crazy musings and diatribes (to psych you up)

Don't forget to download your free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint

Muscle Burns More Calories Than You Think: The 10 Mechanisms That Supercharge Your Metabolism

You've probably heard that every pound of muscle burns more calories—typically around 6 to 9 per day. That number sounds disappointingly small when you consider the effort it takes to build muscle. But what if I told you that this basic calculation massively underestimates how muscle impacts your metabolism?

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we're uncovering 10 distinct mechanisms that make muscle a metabolic powerhouse, far beyond the calories it burns at rest. These hidden factors are why lifters can eat more food without gaining fat, maintain leaner physiques effortlessly, and experience fewer metabolic slowdowns over time.

Why Muscle Acts Like Thermal Mass for Your Metabolism

Before jumping into the 10 mechanisms, let's use an analogy. In engineering and architecture, thermal mass describes a material's ability to absorb, store, and release heat over time. Think of concrete or brick—they slowly absorb heat and gradually release it, stabilizing temperature without needing constant energy input.

Your muscle tissue functions the same way. Instead of heat, it regulates energy balance, calorie burn, and metabolic efficiency, keeping your metabolism running smoothly even when you're not working out.

1. Muscle Directly Increases Your Resting Metabolism

Muscle burns more calories at rest than fat—this part is well known. Studies show that each pound of muscle burns 6 to 9 calories per day, meaning an extra 10 pounds of muscle adds roughly 90 extra calories burned daily. It’s a small boost, but when combined with the other mechanisms below, the real impact is exponential.

2. Muscle Increases Calories Burned During Movement

Because muscle is active tissue, carrying more of it increases the number of calories you burn even during low-intensity activities like walking, standing, or fidgeting. If two people weigh the same, but one has significantly more muscle, they’ll burn more calories doing the same activities.

3. More Muscle Means You Carry More Weight (and Burn More Calories)

Muscle is denser than fat, meaning you can weigh more while maintaining a leaner body composition. Simply put: if you weigh more (because of muscle), you burn more total calories every day—even at rest.

4. Strength Training Triggers EPOC (The Afterburn Effect)

After a hard training session, your metabolism stays elevated for up to 38 hours—a phenomenon called Excess Post-Exercise Oxygen Consumption (EPOC). The more muscle you have, the greater this effect becomes.

5. Muscle Releases Myokines That Help Burn Fat

Muscle isn’t just passive tissue—it’s an endocrine organ that releases signaling molecules called myokines. One of these, irisin, can reprogram fat cells to burn more calories instead of storing energy, directly increasing fat metabolism.

6. Strength Training Enhances Fat Oxidation

During training, your muscles release interleukin-6 (IL-6), which signals your body to burn fat more efficiently. The more muscle you have, the more IL-6 you produce, improving your ability to use stored fat for energy.

7. Muscle Improves Insulin Sensitivity

Muscle tissue acts as a “sink” for glucose, preventing blood sugar spikes and reducing insulin resistance. The more muscle you have, the better your body utilizes carbs, making it easier to stay lean while eating more.

8. Strength Training Activates Brown Fat

Unlike white fat (which stores calories), brown fat burns calories to generate heat. Strength training activates brown fat, increasing total calorie burn beyond what would normally be expected.

9. Muscle Helps Regulate Appetite and Metabolism

When you train, your muscles release GDF-15 (Growth Differentiation Factor 15), which helps suppress hunger and regulate metabolism, making it easier to maintain a leaner body composition.

10. Muscle Supports Thermogenesis (Heat Generation)

Strength training activates Free Fatty Acid Receptor 4 (FFAR4), a receptor that signals increased fat oxidation and thermogenesis (calorie burning through heat production). This means your body naturally burns more energy when you carry more muscle.

How to Leverage These 10 Mechanisms to Burn More Calories

Train With Progressive Overload

The best way to build muscle is to progressively challenge your muscles over time. This means lifting heavier, increasing reps, or adding training volume to drive adaptation.

Eat Enough Protein

You need at least 0.7–1.0g of protein per pound of body weight to build and maintain muscle. Protein also has a high thermic effect, meaning you burn more calories digesting it compared to carbs and fats.

Stop Fearing Calories

Muscle requires energy to grow. While you don’t need a massive calorie surplus, chronic under-eating makes muscle building nearly impossible.

Strength Train 3-5 Days a Week

To keep your metabolism firing, lifting weights is non-negotiable. A mix of heavy compound movements and hypertrophy-focused work will maximize your muscle-building potential.

Be Patient—Muscle Is a Long-Term Investment

Building muscle takes months and years, not days and weeks. But every pound you gain increases your metabolic efficiency, making fat loss easier and allowing you to eat more without gaining fat.

Final Thoughts: Why This Matters for Fat Loss and Longevity

Muscle isn’t just about looking good—it’s a biological advantage that makes fat loss easier, boosts your metabolism, and improves insulin sensitivity. If you’ve ever wondered why lifters seem to eat more without gaining fat, this is why.

This isn’t just about “burning more calories.” It’s about retraining your body to use energy efficiently, making it easier to stay lean, strong, and metabolically healthy for life.

Want to take advantage of these benefits? Download my free Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint to learn exactly how to eat, train, and build muscle without unnecessary fat gain.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free for evidence-based workout programs

🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

You've probably heard that every extra pound of muscle burns more calories, specifically about six to nine calories per day. It doesn't sound like much, and most fitness experts will actually stop right there and say, okay, more muscle burns more calories. Moving on, today we're going to talk about 10 distinct mechanisms that actually make muscle tissue a metabolic powerhouse, well beyond just the calories that it burns by itself, and that exponentially increases how many calories you burn every day. I hope through this, you'll finally understand why building muscle creates such profound changes in your body composition, energy levels and metabolic health. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring why muscle tissue impacts your metabolism far more profoundly than you might think or you've been told.

Philip Pape: 1:09

You've likely heard that muscle burns more calories than fat. Now people used to use this to say it burns way more calories and fortunately, most of the industry has heard the evidence by now that muscle burns about 6 to 10 calories per pound at rest, or six to nine I think. Now that number seems disappointingly small when you consider how hard you work to gain each pound of muscle, Because if you have an extra 10 pounds of muscle, we're talking, at most, 90 more calories a day. You're like, oh, that's not that much. But what if I told you that this basic calculation actually underestimates the overall systemic metabolic impact of muscle tissue? And this is the kind of stuff I think about, guys, when I go to sleep at night. Is what's really happening when I or my clients add five pounds of muscle and all of a sudden you're burning way more calories than you would think from just five pounds of muscle. There are other things going on, and so there's this parallel between how muscle affects your metabolism and how thermal mass in materials. Yes, this is the engineering connection I'm making today, the analogy thermal mass and thermal mass. Materials regulate temperature, so materials like concrete or water. They absorb heat, they store it, they release it gradually to maintain stable temperatures. Well, your muscle tissue actually creates a metabolic environment that constantly consumes, uses and distributes energy throughout your body. It's super, super active. It's like its own organism taking care of things for you, and this thermal mass analogy helps explain why the metabolic benefits of muscle go beyond those basic six to nine calories per pound.

Philip Pape: 2:45

Before we get into these 10 mechanisms that I want to talk about. If you're ready to start adding more muscle right now, you can't wait. Download my free muscle building nutrition blueprint. I believe it is our most downloaded, most popular guide. It's a very detailed guide that breaks down how to eat and how fast to gain and a whole bunch of other details what to measure, what to track to maximize your muscle gain while minimizing your fat gain, which is something you want to do. If you want to take advantage of the 10 things we're talking about today, click the link in the show notes or go to whitsonweightscom slash muscle to get your free muscle building nutrition blueprint.

Philip Pape: 3:23

All right, let's get into the science of muscle metabolism. All right, first we're gonna explore this concept of thermal mass, and I'm honestly not gonna take very much time on that. Then we'll get into the 10 specific mechanisms by which muscle increases your daily calorie burn and then, finally, how to leverage these to transform your physique, which we're all here for right. So let's start with this concept of thermal mass.

Philip Pape: 3:46

In engineering, in architecture, thermal mass is a material's ability to absorb, store and release heat. So materials with high thermal mass, like concrete, brick, water they absorb heat slowly, they store it efficiently and they release it gradually, and that is why they are really good materials for regulating temperature in buildings. Right, concrete, brick water. When the sun beats down on a stone house during the day, the walls don't just heat up right Like an oven, they slowly absorb the thermal energy and then they keep the interior cool as a result. Right, I grew up in Florida. We had cinder block houses with holes in them for that reason. And then, as evening approaches and outside temperatures drop, the same walls gradually release the stored heat, so they maintain this nice, comfortable internal temperature without any additional energy required to change the temperature. And that is very similar to how muscle tissue functions metabolically in your body. Just like high thermal mass materials create thermal efficiency and stability, muscle tissue creates metabolic efficiency and stability. Boom. And that is how I wanted to create an analogy today to the engineering world.

Philip Pape: 4:59

And we are now going to explore how this happens through 10 distinct mechanisms. And here's another episode. I spent a lot of time researching because I am so curious and not skeptical, but like I just really wonder what the heck is going on in our bodies where people with more muscle mass burn more calories, and it does not seem to be explained simply by the amount of calories muscle burns. All right, so let's start with that one and then go to the other nine. So the first mechanism is it's increasing your resting energy expenditure, your BMR, your basal metabolic rate, because even when completely at rest, muscle tissue requires energy for maintenance, and it requires more than any other types of tissue. And so the often cited figure of six to nine calories per day we've alluded to is accurate for this mechanism. And the cool thing about it is it's 24 seven, right, your muscles are just burning away like a furnace 24 seven at this higher rate. So the more you add, the more you burn, and there's nothing more to this in that you know six to nine calories. So let's say, on the upper end, nine calories a day per pound. When you add 10 pounds of muscle to your frame, that's extra 90 calories per day, which isn't nothing. It's small-ish, but it's not nothing. It all starts to add up. Add another five pounds, add another 10 pounds of muscle over the course of your lifting career, and now you're constantly burning a couple hundred calories more a day. So that's mechanism number one, which we've already talked about.

Philip Pape: 6:22

Now let's get into the cool stuff. Mechanism number two is the fact that when you have more muscle, it is because it is not just passively on your body, it is actively participating in your movement. It even inches up your calorie burn when you're doing physical activity versus somebody else who's the same weight but they have less muscle, if that makes sense. So even if you're the same body weight but you have more muscle mass, you have a better body composition. You're then going to potentially burn more doing what you're doing training, walking, moving, cardio, whatever and I don't think we can quantify how much that is Is it 10 calories? Is it 50 calories? But it's just a fact that you are going to be able to burn a little bit more because you have improved body composition. And that leads us to the third mechanism, which is the improved body composition allows you to carry more total body weight while maintaining lower body fat percentage.

Philip Pape: 7:17

And so a lot of my clients you know they might go through an initial fat loss phase and then they're all excited to build muscle. We build muscle. Now they have an extra five, seven pounds of muscle and then they want to do another fat loss phase, but they realize they don't need to lose as much as last time. So and I see this in my own weight graph from my last, say, four years. It goes up and then down, then up then down, but every time it goes up, it goes up higher than last time, and every time it goes down it doesn't go as far down, meaning I can walk around at, say, 180 pounds, whereas before I'd be 170 pounds for the same body fat percentage. So guess what, when you are heavier, you burn more calories just from being heavier Awesome. So that's definitely a reason why some people who have more muscle burn more calories. They're just carrying more weight in general, which is amazing for many other things, not the least of which is now you can eat more food. All of this stuff actually lets you eat more food and you burn more calories, not the least of which is now you can eat more food. All of this stuff actually lets you eat more food and you burn more calories.

Philip Pape: 8:12

So mechanism number four is called EPOC, post-exercise caloric burn, also called the afterburner effect, and I don't want to overstate any of these mechanisms. This is all kind of nerdy and in the weeds, and I will admit, with all the research that I did, there's not like one body of research that combines all of this together to say like, if you have an extra pound of muscle, you're going to end up burning an extra, you know, 20 calories a day because of all these factors. Nothing says that I am basically stitching these together. So you guys understand the value of it and nerd out with me together. All right, all right.

Philip Pape: 8:46

So EPOC, or afterburner effect this is where, after you exercise, after you've elevated your heart rate whether it's training, movement, cardio, whatever, sprinting your body's gonna continue burning calories at an elevated rate for hours. Now two things happen. One is while you're in the gym and Brad Kearns talked about this when he was on the show even when you're effing around between your sets, doing nothing, your heart rate is probably elevated because every time you hit another set, you bump it back up. Well, now you're just burning way more calories for that whole session than if you weren't exercising. It makes sense, right? But the other thing is, after you stop working out, your body will have an elevated metabolism. For a while, I actually found that studies seem to agree. It's long. It's like well over a day Like degree. It's long. It's like well over a day, like I think I saw 38 hours post-workout for an intense strength training session, 38 hours. That's like a day and a half where you have an elevated metabolism just from that training session. And so now, if you have significant muscle mass, this might mean a lot of extra calories burned, because you're now stacking it on top of the extra calories you're able to burn because you have more muscle mass, if that makes sense, right? So you're just stacking all this stuff on top of each other, all right.

Philip Pape: 9:54

Mechanism number five is myokine secretion and fat metabolism. I believe I'm pronouncing that, right, myokine. So think of muscles as an organ, right? Like the biggest, one of the biggest organs on the body. It's an endocrine organ. It secretes compounds. One of those is called myokines, like when you contract your muscle, and those myokines regulate fat metabolism and insulin sensitivity. Now, side tangent we know that strength training and having more muscle both improve insulin sensitivity tremendously. Just keep that in mind. Which allows you to eat more carbs, allows you to utilize carbs, allows you to be healthy in terms of blood sugar, a1c, all that. So back to myokines. So myokines ensure kind of like an efficient energy usage across your body and because of that, you potentially can burn more calories beyond the immediate location of where you're using the muscle, of where you're using the muscle. And there's a, there's a myokine called irisin irisin or irisin I-R-I-S-I-N. That programs white fat cells to behave more like brown fat cells, which are more active, and so there is a theory there that that is part of that process. You're actually turning fat tissue into a more calorie burning fat tissue, and I think this also correlates somewhat with the idea that visceral fat is more active, right? So when you are strength training, when you're active, when you're muscular, you actually use more of that fat, which is why it's easier to keep smaller belly and reduce belly fat when you lift weights. Cool, all right.

Philip Pape: 11:24

Mechanism number six is enhanced fat oxidation through IL-6, interleukin-6. This is a cool one, okay. When I first heard about this, I want to say, like a couple years ago, I was like what are they talking about? This is a compound released during strength training. Okay, so this is while you're lifting weights. So remember, it's not just about having the muscle, it's also the process you go through to have the muscle. And I think it's really empowering to know that not only is strength training a hard thing that's satisfying to do, but it also has a lot of other in the moment, benefits. We're not talking endorphins and dopamine, right, instant gratification. We're talking like really fundamental physiological benefits of the training itself. And so this compound is released and it triggers fat oxidation, probably because your body's like I'm going to need some energy soon, so we're going to break down some fat for energy, okay. And so IL-6 transforms how your body utilizes fat. It makes you a more efficient fat burner, and so the more muscle you have, the more IL-6 you produce during activity. Because now you're stacking that on top of your training and training more intensely, it accelerates fat metabolism beyond what would be predicted. Again, just by looking at the resting calorie burn of your muscle, you see the pattern here, right, these things stack on top of each other.

Philip Pape: 12:40

Mechanism number seven All right, now we're getting really nerdy on this one Fibroblast growth factor 21,. Fgf21. It's another compound produced by muscles which is crazy. Like muscle is producing all these things that are only beneficial. It enhances insulin sensitivity. It enhances metabolic efficiency, which means you could adapt to different energy demands.

Philip Pape: 13:02

This goes back to, you know, your ability to switch between energy systems. Right, and it's like a, it's like a buffer. Muscle mass maintains muscle mass is like a sink I've used that term, a sink for glucose, but it's also this buffer that helps your metabolism remain more stable despite changes in calorie intake. It also helps regulate glucose metabolism, which is your ability to switch between carb and fat burning right, and that also helps you with weight management. So all this stuff is tied together in a crazy, amazing, beautiful way, bringing this to mechanism number eight, the activation of brown adipose tissue. So we talked about myokines like erycin, which activate brown adipose tissue, which then burns calories purely to produce heat rather than store energy, and so I'm closing the loop with that one, because that wasn't even the benefit of the myokines. This is another benefit of the myokines, where brown fat can burn up to like 300 calories per day in some individuals on their body, and those would never have been factored in if you didn't have it. This one I'm a little skeptical about, but the more I research it and kind of follow it up and follow it up, it looks like it's a legitimate mechanism. There are many other mechanisms people claim when it comes to brown fat and white fat, and maybe the jury's still out here, but I still think it jives with the fact that when you are more muscular and you train, you are transforming your body in many ways beyond what we realize. It is not just visual, it is deep down at the cellular level. It's incredible.

Philip Pape: 14:30

All right, mechanism number nine growth differentiation factor 15. I told you we were getting nerdy here, guys. Gdf-15, and that is also released by muscle that's been exercised. So it's kind of like the what do we call it? The FGF21? No, not that one the IL-6. Yes, like IL-6, it's released when you exercise. I'm going back to my notes here. And GDF-15, guess what it does? It regulates appetite and energy balance and metabolic stress. It helps your body maintain metabolic homeostasis effectively when you are stressed or in a calorie deficit. Okay, think about that. Think about that.

Philip Pape: 15:11

I've talked many times about how our bodies seem to be way more resilient to the stresses we put on it when we're lifting weights and have more muscle. This sounds to be, this sounds like. When I came across this, I'm like this is so cool. This is an actual biological mechanism that could explain part of that right. And so when you have more muscle mass and I've seen this with my lifters who've been lifting for many years they don't have as much of a slowdown in their metabolism when they diet. It just seems to be the case. Now it's relative to that same person if they didn't have as much muscle and we can't do that study, can we? So it's hard to like, you can't necessarily compare across people that way, but it just seems to be the case and it would. Would be explained by this right. And so you regulate appetite, regulate energy intake. Now it's going to support your calorie, calorie expenditure, because now you're going to be able to eat more, even in a fat loss phase, and you're regulating your energy or your appetite and you're going to prevent overconsumption.

Philip Pape: 16:04

Pretty fascinating stuff, okay, and I keep saying that I know, but even I am, having gone through this research, the final mechanism number 10, because 10 is a nice round number, but also 10 seemed to be the amount of things I could find is free fatty acid receptor 4, ffar4, along with thermogenesis. So the last one here is where muscle activity so again using the muscles, pretty cool. Muscle activity triggers FFAR4 activation and what that does is stimulate fat burning thermogenesis, which is generating heat from calories. And really that's all the information I have. Basically, it shows you how muscle creates this metabolic furnace of an environment that's constantly burning more calories in ways that seem to be above and beyond the muscle tissue's own energy needs, and that's really what I wanted to include here.

Philip Pape: 16:57

You're welcome to listen to these, listen to the show note, or look at the show notes and listen to this again and kind of do your own research on these. If you find anything I said that was incorrect, let me know. This is really deep into the stuff. That's even beyond where I typically ever have to go, because I I don't need to be explaining this to to my clients, but I like to know it as a science communicator. So check them out if you want, um, practical implications.

Philip Pape: 17:20

So, now that we understand these 10 mechanisms, kind of hopefully, how do we apply this to transform our physiques? Cause, here's the thing you don't have to understand why any of these things work. You just need to go and lift weights and eat your food and you'll get there. And that's that's how I generally help. People is like let's just focus on what we can do and can control. But I also have this podcast and people are people expect me to kind of get uh, to geek out on this stuff. So the what is the first thing you could do? Okay, duh, persistent resistance training, right? Okay, if you're lifting. If you're listening to this podcast and you don't already lift weights, you're like who is this guy, this crazy guy? You'll quickly find out that well, first of all, weights is in the name of the podcast Wits and Weights, so it's important. But secondly, it is the number one thing everybody should be doing to the day they die resistance training.

Philip Pape: 18:05

If you are currently focused on cardio for weight management, if you think diet's going to solve everything and you don't need to lift, think again. Right, you've got to lift. You've got to lift at least two or three days a week. At least at least two to three days a week. The long-term metabolic advantages are just too critical and significant to ignore.

Philip Pape: 18:25

Second, with your resistance training, you've got to do it right. You've got to focus on progressive overload To continuously build the muscle. You have to progressively challenge your muscles with increasing effort of some kind. And I say it that way because, yes, you can increase weight on the bar. You know the amount of weight you're moving. You could also increase volume. You can increase sets, reps. There's lots of ways to progressively overload and the more advanced you get, the more nuanced this gets. But I don't want to overcomplicate it Basically. Basically, your training has to challenge you more and more over time and that ensures that you adapt and that you develop these muscles. And there's a strength component and there's a muscle component. They overlap to some degree. If you're a beginner, just getting stronger is going to build muscle too, and then eventually you can branch out to more specialization All right. Third out of out of uh five things here Okay. Out to more specialization All right. Third out of out of uh five things here Okay.

Philip Pape: 19:17

Third, for practical application of what we're talking about protein into it in protein intake super critical. That goes hand in hand with your training, right? About 0.7 to one gram per pound of your target body weight every day. Once you have that sufficient protein which we talked about, I think, just um. Two days ago on our last episode, I deep-dived into how macros work in your body. That is going to allow your body to build and maintain muscle mass, and I'm not going to say it mitigates a quasi-effective training program, but you've got to have both in place. And by having both in place, you've given yourself a little bit of a buffer to experiment, to play around, to see how things work for you and then to grow your butt off and build that muscle.

Philip Pape: 19:53

Fourth, don't fear calories. We've got to stop fearing food. Building muscle requires energy. You don't need a massive surplus, but chronically under eating is going to sabotage your ability to build muscle, and also under eating carbs. More muscle means a higher metabolic rate. That is the whole point of this episode. If you want that, if you want that, you've got to go into a muscle building phase at some point. You can't just try to limp along body recomp or dieting all the time. You just can't.

Philip Pape: 20:19

I've done a lot of episodes on this. If you're curious about the best one, um, I would go look at the one. It's called the most underrated. Look for the word underrated in my podcast library. Search the word underrated Um for the word underrated in my podcast library. Search the word underrated Um, and it was toward the end of 2024. If I, if I don't forget, I will include that in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 20:39

Last thing you gotta be patient and consistent. This is a long game, folks is a long game, but it's a beautiful long game. It is one of uh, what, what the people at Barbara logic called voluntary hardship. It's doing a hard thing that is super satisfying and fulfilling, instead of the instant gratification or being lazy, it's being you know, I don't like to use the word disciplined I feel like there are ways to do this where it takes away a lot of the friction and you just do it and it doesn't even feel like discipline, like I don't feel like I'm disciplined because I train four days a week. I feel like I have to do that, like I just have to do it, and it's hard and I still have to do it because I know what the payoff is gonna be. Building muscle takes time. Building strength takes time. You know months, years, not days and weeks. Yes, you can get quick progress initially as a beginner, and that's empowering and that's nice to have that win. It's motivating, but then you gotta keep going. It's motivating, but then you got to keep going and the compounding effect of all this makes it one of the most worthwhile long-term investments you'll ever, ever, ever make in your health and your physique in your life. I hope I got that through to everyone.

Philip Pape: 21:42

This was a kind of a unique episode the way, the directions I took it. I think the true metabolic advantage here. Why even put this together? Even though it sounds like it's about calories, it's about resilience and adaptation and making your body super metabolically just strong to anything that's thrown at it. You think about people who seem to eat whatever they want without gaining weight. It's probably not their genetics. Maybe when they're 20 it is, but when they're older they probably have more muscle mass. They probably have more muscle mass Like. The people that can eat whatever they want at 45, around my age are the ones that are still fit and have muscle mass, because everyone else who's let themselves go. Trust me, they cannot eat whatever they want, right.

Philip Pape: 22:22

Being more active, being fit, being a person who moves not chronic cardio, but you lift and you move right and now you're activating all of those 10 mechanisms that we discussed today. You're not it's not just about calorie, but like temporarily increasing your calorie, but you're changing your body's relationship with energy Right energy, think about it fuel. You're creating a physique that efficiently utilizes calories to maintain your muscle, to recover for your activity, rather than someone who Defaults to storing fat. It's a huge difference in the type of person you want to be and live as, and this is why bodybuilders and lifters and powerlifters and strength athletes they can consume seemingly enormous amounts of food when they're at maintenance, definitely when they're building. I know when I'm building, like I am right now, it just doesn't end the amount of food I have to eat. And then, during maintenance, I get to eat I'll call it plenty Like I'll never, ever feel hungry, even at maintenance, because the muscle mass allows me to eat more than I used to, and I see it in my metabolism. How it's calculated I use macrofactor. You can see that the number is higher than it used to be, and I see that with all my clients as well. Right, so you've got this metabolic engine. It's powered by your muscle mass and it is running hot through those 10 mechanisms we discussed.

Philip Pape: 23:38

All right, I'm making this episode longer than it needs to be. Here's the thing. This is available to anyone. Any one of you listening, if you're willing to put in the work of progressive resistance training, get in the gym or home gym or whatever, regardless of your age, your gender, your hormone status, your genetics, it doesn't matter. The laws of physiology apply to everyone and muscle is going to respond to a proper stimulus at any age. That's it. All right, I'm not going to recap all the 10 mechanisms or anything. You can go back and listen to those If you're ready to start building more muscle and you want to leverage what we talked about today, just download the free resources I mentioned earlier.

Philip Pape: 24:18

It's free. What's the harm there? It's going to get you going, get you motivated. It's called the Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint. It's a guide my most popular guide breaks down how to eat, how to train, what rate to go at, what to track, what to measure. It has an example of an actual muscle building phase. The whole shebang, okay, and you're going to minimize fat gain, which I know you want to do when you're building muscle. It tells you macros, tells you calories, tells you timing. Click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash muscle to get your free copy Again. Witsandweightscom slash muscle or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that building muscle is about far more than just looking good. It's about creating a metabolic engine that supports lifelong health, performance and body composition. This is Philip Pape, and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

What Happens to Macros (Carbs, Fats, and Protein) Inside Your Body? | Ep 290

Join the Wits & Weights Facebook group where this question originated and connect with like-minded people who are focused on evidence-based nutrition and training. Click here to join

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If you've been told that "a calorie is just a calorie" or that certain macros are "good" or "bad," you're missing the fascinating biological reality of how your body processes different foods.

Learn the surprising truth about what happens to each macronutrient inside your body, including why carbs don't easily convert to body fat, how fats support crucial hormones, and what makes protein so special for body composition.

Main Takeaways:

• Your body processes each macro through completely different pathways with unique effects on energy, hormones, and body composition

• Fears about carbs are completely misplaced once you understand what actually happens after digestion

• Fat metabolism reveals why certain dietary recommendations of the past were fundamentally flawed

• Understanding protein's unique properties explains why it's so powerful for physique transformation beyond just building muscle

• The concept of metabolic flexibility changes everything about how you should approach your nutrition strategy

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why simplified views of macros miss the biological reality
3:28 - Carbohydrates: from mouth to bloodstream and beyond
9:31 - Fats: the misunderstood macro and its critical functions
15:24 - Protein: the structural macro that burns calories during digestion
21:29 - Practical implications for meal composition and timing
27:40 - The surprising truth about metabolic flexibility
30:32 - Key takeaways and why balanced nutrition works best

What Happens to Macros in Your Body (and Why It Matters for Fat Loss and Muscle Growth)

If you've ever been told that "a calorie is just a calorie" or that carbs are the enemy, you're missing a critical piece of the puzzle—how your body actually processes different macronutrients. The truth is, what happens after you eat carbs, fats, and protein plays a huge role in your energy levels, muscle growth, and fat loss.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we break down the journey of each macro—carbs, fats, and protein—from the moment you take a bite of food to how your body absorbs, stores, and uses those nutrients. If you're someone who tracks macros but still wonders why certain foods affect your body differently, this episode will clear up the confusion.

Carbohydrates: Energy or Fat Storage?

Carbs tend to be the most misunderstood macro, often blamed for weight gain. But in reality, all digestible carbs eventually get broken down into simple sugars—glucose, fructose, and galactose—which are then absorbed into your bloodstream.

• Immediate Energy: When you eat carbs, your body either burns them right away or stores them as glycogen in your muscles and liver.

• Glycogen Storage: Your muscles can store about 500g of glycogen, and your liver about 100g. This is crucial for high-intensity training.

• Fat Conversion Myth: Excess carbs don’t automatically turn into fat. The process, called de novo lipogenesis, is highly inefficient in humans. Instead, your body tends to burn excess carbs for energy while storing more dietary fat.

So, the real issue isn’t carbs—it’s overall calorie intake. If you’re in a surplus, you’ll store fat regardless of whether those extra calories come from carbs, fat, or even protein.

Fats: The Most Efficient Energy Storage

For decades, dietary fat was demonized, but fat plays an essential role in hormone production, brain health, and energy balance.

• Slow Digestion: Fats take longer to digest than carbs because they must be broken down with bile and enzymes before absorption.

• Energy Storage: Unlike carbs, which have a limited storage capacity (glycogen), fat can be stored in virtually unlimited amounts in adipose tissue.

• Fat Storage Efficiency: Dietary fat is stored in fat cells with minimal processing, making it the easiest macro to store as body fat. However, fat itself doesn’t make you fat—excess calories do.

• Types of Fat:

  • Saturated Fats (animal products, coconut oil) – Safe in moderation but should be kept under 10% of total calories.

  • Monounsaturated Fats (olive oil, avocados) – Generally beneficial for heart health.

  • Polyunsaturated Fats (omega-3s, seed oils) – Essential for the body, especially for reducing inflammation.

  • Trans Fats (processed foods, hydrogenated oils) – Avoid as much as possible due to proven negative health effects.

Protein: The Building Blocks of Muscle and Metabolism

Protein is the structural macro, critical for repairing and building muscle, regulating hormones, and supporting immune function.

• High Thermic Effect: Your body burns 20-30% of protein calories just digesting it (compared to 5-10% for carbs and 0-3% for fats).

• Muscle Retention: Adequate protein intake (0.7-1.0g per pound of body weight) is essential for preserving lean muscle, especially during fat loss.

• Satiety & Fat Loss: Protein keeps you full longer than carbs or fat, making it a game-changer for those trying to lose body fat without feeling constantly hungry.

• No Storage System: Unlike carbs and fat, protein doesn’t have a dedicated storage system. Your body either uses it or converts excess to glucose or fat.

Practical Takeaways: How to Apply This Knowledge

Now that you understand what happens to macros inside your body, here’s how to use that information to optimize fat loss and muscle growth:

1. Meal Composition Matters

Balancing protein, carbs, and fats in each meal helps stabilize energy, prevent blood sugar crashes, and support muscle maintenance. A simple meal could be:

• Protein: Chicken or tofu

• Carbs: Sweet potatoes or rice

• Fats: Avocado or olive oil

• Fiber: Leafy greens or other vegetables

2. Pre- and Post-Workout Nutrition

• Pre-Workout: Prioritize fast-digesting carbs and protein (avoid fat and fiber) to fuel your training. Example: Whey protein + banana.

• Post-Workout: Focus on protein and carbs to replenish glycogen and stimulate muscle recovery. Example: Chicken + rice.

3. Protein Timing

While total protein intake matters most, spreading it evenly across 3-5 meals can optimize muscle protein synthesis.

4. Adjusting Macros for Your Goals

• Fat Loss: Maintain protein intake, reduce carbs and fats to create a calorie deficit.

• Muscle Gain: Increase carbs and protein to fuel muscle growth while keeping fats moderate.

• Maintenance: Find a balance where you feel energized, strong, and can maintain body composition.

Final Thoughts: Don’t Fear Any Macro

Carbs aren’t evil, fat isn’t inherently bad, and protein isn’t just for bodybuilders. Your body thrives when all three macronutrients work together. Whether your goal is fat loss, muscle gain, or simply improving overall health, understanding how your body processes food will help you make smarter nutrition choices.

Want to dive deeper into these topics? Join our free Wits & Weights Facebook group, where we break down the science, answer your questions, and support each other’s progress.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been told that a calorie is just a calorie, or that carbs are the enemy, or even that fat makes you fat, you're missing the crucial biological reality of how your body actually processes different foods. These oversimplifications ignore the complex journey that macros take once they enter your body, a journey that directly impacts your energy levels, your muscle growth and, yes, even your fat loss. Today, we're breaking down exactly what happens to each macro. After you swallow that bite of food, you'll discover why protein requires twice the energy to digest as carbs, why some carbs raise blood sugar faster than others, and how fat metabolism actually works. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Haidt, and today I'm going to answer a question that goes beyond simple calorie counting to a fascinating world of the biological mechanisms that determine how your body processes different foods. Now, this episode was inspired by Joy Kay from our Facebook group, who asked and I'm going to quote her directly I would like to know more about each macro and their function in the body. Do carbs turn into sugar? Speaking of sugar, what is its effect? And, joy, I love this question because understanding what happens to carbohydrates, fats and proteins after you eat them gives us some insights that go beyond just tracking the macros, and I don't think I've covered it in depth on the show before. So here we go. When you understand these processes, you can make better nutrition choices, and I love understanding that none of these things are to be feared. Most foods are not to be feared, and it really comes down to why certain strategies work for your goals while others fail for you and stop falling for nutrition myths that ignore the biological reality of how your body works. So today we're going to trace that journey of each macro, from the moment it enters your mouth to how it's broken down, absorbed and ultimately used by your body, with all of the important implications for your training, your body composition and your health. And I'm going to keep this a little science-y, but not too much, so I hope you enjoy the level of detail today Before we get into the science of macros.

Philip Pape: 2:30

If you enjoy evidence-based information, like on this podcast that cuts through the confusion of all the information in the fitness industry, join our Wits and Weights Facebook group. That is where Joy asks the excellent question we're answering today. It is full of like-minded people, curious people sharing their experiences, asking questions, supporting each other on their fitness journeys. Look for Wits and Weights on Facebook or click the link in the show notes to join our free community. So we're going to talk about a bunch of different things today and the way I've organized it is pretty logical. We're going to talk about carbohydrates, then fats, then protein and then tie it all together with practical implications for things like meal timing and food combinations and kind of your overall nutrition strategy. And I want to emphasize that understanding these it's not just academic, it does have real practical implications. You don't have to be a scientist per se. In fact, just listening to this podcast is a great way to absorb this information and understand. Hey, I've got some freedom and flexibility here based on what my goals are.

Philip Pape: 3:28

All right, let's start with carbohydrates, since they tend to be the most, I'll say, misunderstood and controversial macronutrient. And to answer Joy's direct question, yes, all digestible carbs do eventually get broken down into simple sugars in your body, but the process and the timeline can vary dramatically depending on the type of carbohydrate. So the journey begins in your mouth, where many journeys begin I'm sorry that was uncalled for when an enzyme called amylase starts breaking down complex carbs into simpler forms of carbs, and that's why, if you chew bread long enough, for example, it starts to taste sweet. I don't know if you ever thought about that before, but it's true. I used to love taking the crust off my bread and then squishing the bread into a little ball. Anyway, when that happens, you're literally beginning the conversion to sugar right there in your mouth. Very little digestion happens in your stomach for carbs.

Philip Pape: 4:24

The real action takes place in your small intestine, where more enzymes continue breaking down those complex carbs into their simplest forms glucose, fructose and galactose and these are the simple sugars that your body can actually absorb through the intestinal wall into your bloodstream. Then these simple sugars, bam, hit your bloodstream and what happens? Your pancreas releases insulin. Insulin is usually portrayed as a fat storage hormone, and that is an oversimplification, because it is really a crucial anabolic hormone. Remember anabolism. Anabolic means building up of tissue we love that word when it comes to growth and building muscle, and it helps transport nutrients into cells throughout your body. That is what insulin does. When it comes to carbs specifically, insulin helps shuttle the glucose from your bloodstream into different cells where it can be used for energy your brain and red blood cells, for example, preferentially use glucose for fuel. Now, when you consume more carbs than your body needs for immediate energy, that's where things get interesting and that's where a lot of the misconceptions come up.

Philip Pape: 5:34

Some glucose is stored in your liver and muscles as glycogen, so think of this as your body's short-term energy reserve system. It's super important for high intensity movement like strength training and glycolytic forms of activity, including various forms of cardio. Your muscles can store about 500 grams of glycogen. Your liver about 100 grams. Of course, the more muscle you have, the more you can store. Remember that. So that's about 2,400 calories of stored energy ready to fuel your workouts. The key point here that explains why carb loading before you train or have intense exercise can explain why this is so beneficial and why I talk about it all the time when it comes to your pre-workout meal is that your body can access glycogen stores much more rapidly than it can mobilize fat for energy, and that is why it is ideal for a heavy lifting session or an intense training session.

Philip Pape: 6:31

Now, if your glycogen stores are already full, contrary to popular belief, excess carbs don't just automatically get stored as body fat and you blow up and all of a sudden, you're just super fat because of carbs. It doesn't work that way. The process of converting carbs to fat, which is called de novo lipogenesis, is very inefficient in humans. Your body actually prefers to burn off the excess carbs by increasing energy expenditure or simply reducing fat oxidation, meaning it burns the carbs and saves the fat. Now that doesn't, of course, mean that you could eat unlimited carbs without gaining fat. That's energy balance, right. That is where you do get fat from eating carbs, just like you get fat from eating protein or fat as well, because you're eating too much. If you consistently eat more calories than you burn from any source, you will gain weight. Always remember that. It has nothing to do with the carbs. The metabolic pathway from carbs, specifically, to fat storage is way more complex than most people realize and, by the way, we're not going to dissect that all here today.

Philip Pape: 7:31

Now, not all carbs affect your body the same way. Important to understand that Factors like fiber, the structure of the food, how it's processed and then what you eat with the carbs will all influence how quickly they're broken down and how dramatically they affect your blood sugar and insulin levels. Right when you hear advice to add fats or protein to your carbs to reduce blood sugar spikes. That's why they're saying that this is the concept behind the glycemic index and glycemic load right Measures of how quickly and significantly a food raises your blood sugar. Foods with lower glycemic indexes, like most vegetables, legumes, you know, beans, some whole grains. They cause a slower, more moderate blood sugar response compared to high glycemic foods like white bread or, yes, even potatoes and processed things like sugary food, sugary drinks. And that difference in blood sugar response has implications for your energy level, for your hunger, even for your long-term health. But we don't want to conflate rapid blood sugar spikes short-term with long-term raised blood sugar. Very important distinction right Now foods that cause rapid spikes and crashes in blood sugar. They can lead to bigger fluctuations in your energy, they can affect your hunger signals and then, over time, if you have a high consumption of sugar and carbs and you are not utilizing it right and we want to utilize it with an active lifestyle, with strength training, with muscle mass, that's where potential issues with insulin sensitivity come into play, which, again, we are going to mitigate that such that it almost doesn't matter If you're, if you're covering all the bases, you can eat carbs and have a spike in blood sugar and in fact, a spike in blood sugar can be helpful when you're going into the gym and you're going to utilize that right, and that that's again where we conflate the issue. So that's the whole carb section I wanted to talk about and lead into the next one, and again we're gonna come back to implications when we tie all this together as a whole, as a whole. Okay.

Philip Pape: 9:31

Now let's talk about fats, which I wanna call, I guess, the most misunderstood macro of all. I mean, if it's not carbs, it's fat, because for decades okay and I'm 44, so I grew up in the 80s when fat-free and snack wells was the thing all the way up into the 90s We've been told that dietary fat made us fat and caused heart disease. There's a lot of reasons behind this and the history of the science and the seven country studies and saturated versus not. We're not going to get into all that. The reality, of course, is more nuanced. That's the point here, one of the points, and we're going to go through it.

Philip Pape: 10:05

So, fat digestion it starts minimally in your mouth and stomach, but mostly occurs in your small intestine, and it does so with the help of bile from your gallbladder and then enzymes from your pancreas and that's what breaks down dietary fats into fatty acids and glycerol, and then those are then absorbed into your intestinal cells. Pretty cool, right? So here's where fat metabolism gets more fascinating, I'll say. Unlike carbs, which travel directly into your bloodstream, dietary fats are packaged into lipoprotein bundles called chylomicrons, and these travel through your lymphatic system before they get to your bloodstream. Guys, if you're like, wow, philip knows his stuff, I did a lot of research for this episode and I have a lot of notes. So, just so you know, this is what science communication is all about when you're not an expert in the field. So hopefully I'm doing it justice Anybody who is an expert in this stuff. If you catch a mistake, let me know, but I definitely did a lot of research. Okay, moving on.

Philip Pape: 11:01

So the difference in transport between fats and carbs, right? This explains why fat takes longer to affect your blood levels and energy systems compared to carbs. It's a slower, more gradual process. On a little side tangent, I will advise clients to limit or eliminate any fat in their pre-workout to avoid this, this mechanism of slowing down digestion, because what it does is it slows down your body's absorption of protein and carbs, and so you can see how it's all interconnected. Okay, so that was a side tangent, but important to know as to why I recommend fewer fats and fewer fiber, lower fiber in your pre workout things that slow digestion.

Philip Pape: 11:38

So once your fats are in circulation, they can then be used for immediate energy needs. They're stored in fat tissue for later use or they're used for essential functions like hormone production, brain health, cell membrane integrity all the things we know that fat is important for. Your brain, in fact, is about 60% fat, and you need dietary fat for the production of hormones, including the big ones, big reproductive hormones, testosterone and estrogen right, so fat is essential, you have to consume it. Hormones, testosterone and estrogen right, so fat is essential, you have to consume it. And there are issues with people getting too low in their fat intake.

Philip Pape: 12:17

Now, an important point about fat storage because that's a lot of the things we care about is body fat storage. When you consume dietary fat, it can be stored in your fat cells with minimal processing, right, it just kind of goes right in there, and that's what makes fat storage more efficient from an energy standpoint compared to converting excess carbs or protein to fat. But this is super important. That doesn't mean that eating fat automatically makes you fat, because your body is constantly mobilizing and storing fat based on your overall energy needs. It's what your body needs, your metabolism. If you're in a calorie deficit, you're gonna burn fat for fuel, regardless of how much fat you eat. If you're in a calorie surplus, you're gonna store fat, regardless of whether it came from fat, carbs or protein, although, like I mentioned before, the conversion from carbs and protein is actually less efficient.

Philip Pape: 13:07

Different types of fats also affect your body differently. So, without going too deep into the chemistry, because I'm not even equipped to do that, here are the key distinctions between the four types of fats that you hear about, that exist and you hear talked about. Let's start with saturated fats. These are the ones solid at room temperature. They're found in animal products some plant oils, but mainly animal products and they've gotten a bad rap right because of their correlation with cardiovascular health. But moderate amounts in the context of an otherwise healthy dietary pattern are fine. And then, if you want a number, I would say no more than 10% of your calories or a third of your fats. It's a good rule of thumb. A little more than that's fine, but we're just saying that's a general ceiling.

Philip Pape: 13:50

Then we have monounsaturated fats. Those are the ones found in olive oil, avocados, nuts Most people don't argue about these. Okay, they're like everybody's like. Oh yeah, those are good, those are beneficial for heart health, and they are, they're good. Olive oil is great. Okay, I just had a whole bunch of pasta with olive oil and some chicken thighs that I meal prepped for lunch. You know, I have 3,600 calories. I'm trying to get in right now in a building phase.

Philip Pape: 14:12

Then we have polyunsaturated fats. All right, these are usually found in omega-3s, like fatty fish, flax, seeds, walnuts, and then some omega-6s, and these are the essential fats that your body cannot produce. So we definitely want to consume these polyunsaturated. Oh and, by the way, seed oils are among those and they also get a huge bad rap in the industry for no reason whatsoever. Totally unnecessary, just understand that.

Philip Pape: 14:43

And then trans fats. Now those are I'll call the quote unquote bad ones. They're found in artificially hydrogenated oils and they're actually problematic and we don't see any upsides to those and they have negative health effects. So they've been mostly banned. You're hardly going to find those. So the bottom line on fats is that they are essential nutrients. They are helpful for hormone production, brain function, nutrient absorption. And then, yes, they can be efficiently used for energy, especially, you know, the low energy activities. Walking is great form of uh movement for fat oxidation, so is the occasional sprinting, so is lifting weights and recovering and being active and moving Cardio and high intense running. Sometimes it backfires and actually causes you not to oxidize fat as well.

Philip Pape: 15:24

Keep that in mind, okay, and then we come to protein, my favorite. Well, I don't know, I think carbs are also my favorite, just because people love to hate on them and they need a little bit more love. But protein, this is the structural macro. All right, this is the bodybuilders and the lifters' favorite macro, but it's also becoming more popular among the general population, thankfully. And finally, I don't know if I mentioned this on podcast yet, but I saw a commercial for Oikos Greek yogurt during the Super Bowl, and they were. The selling point was that it had a lot of protein and it's good for muscle. I'm like, yeah, that's great, I'm glad that that is what is in our, that is what we're selling it on, and it's for a good reason, right? But protein is important for a lot more things in building muscle, which is one thing I do want to touch on because that's all we talk about sometimes is muscle.

Philip Pape: 16:14

So protein digestion that begins in your stomach. You've got hydrochloric acid, which denatures the proteins, and then there's an enzyme called pepsin that starts breaking down protein into smaller peptides. You've heard peptides right, you've heard of like injectable peptides. That's what they are they're proteins. And then this process continues past the stomach into the small intestine. More enzymes break the peptides down into the individual amino acids and then small peptide chains can be absorbed into your bloodstream. Now, unlike carbs and fats, proteins are not primarily used for energy they can be in rare circumstances but primarily the amino acids become the building blocks You've heard that before the building blocks for nearly every structural and functional component in your body Muscles, yes, but also enzymes, hormones, immune cells, hair, skin, and the list goes on and on.

Philip Pape: 17:10

So think of protein as the construction material for your body. It's constantly being used to build and repair tissues, and this is why protein is critical during periods of growth, like when you're a child, when you're an adolescent, but also recovery, like after an injury, and of course. Of course when you're trying to build muscle through resistance training, and when I say build, I also mean hold onto muscle if you are in fat loss, for example. Protein does also have unique properties that make it the favorite macro when it comes to body composition. The first one is its high thermic effect of food, the TEF. This means your body burns more calories digesting protein compared to carbs or fats. Specifically, about 20 to 30% of the calories from protein are used just in digesting and processing the protein 20 to 30%, compared to only 5 to 10% for carbs and 0 to 3% for fats, and so this higher energy cost contributes to why protein helps a lot of people with fat loss.

Philip Pape: 18:14

When they increase the protein in their diet from you know, when they double it, for example, which is very, very common Many people are far under eating protein. When you start working with me and we start tracking, you end up doubling or tripling in some cases, and what that does is it burns more calories just to digest and you start to lose weight without trying, and yet you feel full. That's key. Second, speaking of full, protein is highly satiating. It does help you feel fuller longer compared to equal calories from carbs or fats, and so this satiety effect is yet another reason higher protein diets are effective for fat loss right? They help you control your hunger signals and your calorie intake.

Philip Pape: 18:52

And then third, adequate protein intake is crucial for preserving lean mass during weight loss. Remember the key here everyone and if you've never heard this before, listen, right now we are not trying to lose weight, we are trying to lose fat, body fat and get leaner, more muscular, fitter. And if you just crash diet or you lose weight or you're on Ozempic, you just lose weight or you're not resistance training, you're not eating enough protein, you're going to lose muscle. We don't want to lose muscle, that's the wonderful thing. We want to keep on our body and have more of so protein you need adequate protein to preserve that lean mass. And so when you're in a calorie deficit and you have sufficient protein, it signals to your body to preserve the muscle tissue. It says, look, I've got the building blocks available, so I'm going to go ahead and use them, right? And then you preferentially burn what Fat for energy, which is fat is a great storage place for energy.

Philip Pape: 19:49

As for the fate of excess protein beyond what your body needs for tissue building and repair, it doesn't directly convert to muscle, right, and that'd be great if you could just keep eating unlimited protein. Eat 500 grams of protein a day and just become massively jacked. It doesn't work that way. Instead, what happens is excess amino acids can be converted to glucose through a process called gluconeogenesis, or, less efficiently, stored as fat. But the metabolic cost of this conversion process is really high, and that's another reason why high protein diets tend to be beneficial for body composition. Is it actually? If you get into this state of conversion, it burns a few more calories, but but this doesn't happen a lot. I just want to keep that in mind. There there are corner cases where this happens.

Philip Pape: 20:36

A final note on protein metabolism. Unlike carbs, which can be stored as glycogen, and fats, which can be stored in adipose tissue, your body does not have a dedicated storage form for amino acids. You either use them or lose them right Through excretion, like going to the bathroom, you know urine or they get converted to other compounds. So this is why you might hear the advice to spread protein intake throughout the day for your muscle protein synthesis. It's a slight advantage. It's not massive like we used to think. It's just a slight advantage because your body can only use so much at once for muscle protein synthesis. But recent studies have shown it's probably a lot more than we think, so don't get too hung up on. That is my point. It's a slight, slight advantage. If you want to eat all your protein in one or two meals, you can still have great results, as long as you're hitting all your protein.

Philip Pape: 21:29

Now that we understand the journey that each macro takes through our bodies and I, for one, am excited by understanding this stuff let's talk about what this means for your nutrition strategy in practice. Let's start with meal composition right. Understanding how different macros are processed helps explain why just balancing your meals tends to work really well for most people. Combining fats, proteins, fiber-rich carbs in a meal it's going to moderate your blood sugar response. You're going to have a nice amount of energy. You're going to support your muscle maintenance and your muscle growth. It's just a nice way to practice your meal planning and your meal execution, not trying to have all protein over here and all carbs over here.

Philip Pape: 22:11

Just keep things balanced. The one small exception I would say I mentioned earlier is your pre-workout. Take fats out of there and take fiber out of there and make it mostly protein and carbs. And you're deliberately doing that because you want to inject your bloodstream with carbs and actually cause a spike and use insulin for its advantage when you're lifting weights, but other than that, keep it balanced throughout the day. For example, chicken sweet potatoes right, Chickens are protein, sweet potatoes are carbs, avocados are fat, vegetables are fiber. That's just a simple example and you're going to digest it at a reasonable rate. You're not just going to have a huge blood sugar spike and you're going to have more stable energy levels. Maybe, maybe better nutrient partitioning. Maybe I'm not going to lean too much into that one, but I like balance. The other thing about balance is it makes it easy to hit your macros because from the beginning of the day, you're balancing out what you need the whole day. Well, you never fall behind on anything that makes sense. You never fall behind.

Philip Pape: 23:07

Now that's not to say some meals won't have a lot more protein or a lot more carbs. Definitely happens. You know that's fine. Some people need they need so much protein. They're like I don't want to have a lot of protein in every meal. I'm going to have a bowl of Greek yogurt in the afternoon or pre-bed snack to get my last, you know, 25 grams of protein or something. So that's meal composition.

Philip Pape: 23:25

The second one is meal timing and this is where the digestion rates affect your strategy. So, pre-workout nutrition I've touched on it twice already. I should have just waited till this section, but we want easily digestible carbs to get that jolt of glycogen in your muscles ready and available for training period. The only alternative to this is going to be eating a lot of your carbs at dinner the night before. If you train really early and for whatever reason, you can't get over the excuse not to eat, and I say it that way because vast majority of people, they just make an excuse. It's like just eat a banana and drink some whey shake, just do it. Just do it 10 minutes before you work out, it's fine. Some people, though, might have specific cases, like thyroid medication, where they just have to wait before they eat and then they want to work out, and it's like they don't want to wait an hour before they work out. So I get it.

Philip Pape: 24:15

In that case, have a bunch of carbs at night for dinner before, and I mean like a significant portion of your carbs, um. And then you want protein and carbs. So protein for the muscle, repair carbs, replenish glycogen, enhance protein uptake with the insulin. And then your pre-sleep meals Um, I like protein but, and maybe fat, but fewer carbs, right? You don't need to like jolt yourself with protein right before bed, like it used to be said, that you had to eat casein protein and get this bolus of protein and build muscle at night. No, you don't need that. But if you're going to have a snack late at night, you know protein is not a bad idea. Protein and fat. So I think, like Greek yogurt, for example, um, fewer carbs. If you need a little honey in there or something, fine, but you know the fats slow your digestion. You get sustained energy. It doesn't disrupt sleep. If, like, large carb loads could disrupt your sleep, that's really the only reason you might avoid a significant amount of carbs before bed and just measure this stuff. If you have an Oura ring or just you're tracking your sleep quality, you could tell you know over time.

Philip Pape: 25:45

No-transcript, always, always, always going to be around 0.7 to one gram per pound of, I'll say, body weight or target body weight. And I say target because if you have a significant weight to lose or gain, you could base it more off of the final weight. But anyway, 0.701 isa, nice broad range. It gets you in the ballpark. It's plenty, and most people are not there when they get started. So getting it up to that point is going to be really good for you.

Philip Pape: 26:15

Then we have carbs or no. Then we have fats I like fats. Second Fats have a minimum threshold, carbs or no. Then we have fats I like fats. Second fats have a minimum threshold. It's probably lower than you think, but I like to be safe, so I I usually peg it at 30% of your calories.

Philip Pape: 26:29

The challenge is going to be in fat loss If your calories are low. If your calories are low, you might need to be down at 25% or even 20%, some people even lower than that, and then physique competitors even lower than that, like they can go really low, which can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. So start at 30% and then, if you don't have a lot of calories to play with, it could always go down. If you have more calories to play with, it could go up a little bit right. Or if you just like to have more fat in your diet, like if you came from the keto world or something, and then guess what? The rest goes into carbs.

Philip Pape: 26:56

So the carbs are going to fluctuate based on your phase. If you are at maintenance or in a muscle building phase, you're going to have a ton of carbs, which is great. You need them, you want them and they're delicious. And then if you're in a fat loss phase, the carbs are going to come down. The most of any of the macros, protein stays the same Fats scale as a percentage, but then carbs are what's left, and so if you only have like 1400 calories to work with, your carbs might be a hundred grams or less, which some people are listening thinking well, that doesn't sound that low, I'm used to that. Well, that's because most of society pushes low carb today and doesn't realize that. You know, people trying to build muscle can thrive really well on two, three, four, five, 600 grams of carbs, depending on how many calories you need in a muscle building phase. All right.

Philip Pape: 27:40

So something that might surprise you about macro metabolism I always like to have a little teaser at the end here of something different that you haven't heard is that your body is adapting its metabolic pathways based on what you are regularly eating. Right, there's a name for this. It's called metabolic flexibility, and you got to be careful when you Google that term, because you'll hear some kind of crackpot theories about this, and then you'll see, the more evidence-based and the term gets thrown around kind of loosey-goosey, but it's basically the ability to switch between your energy systems and your carbs and fats for fuel. Right, people with higher flexibility, metabolic flexibility can thrive on the various macro distributions because your body's adapted to whatever fuel source is predominant. And I would say that this is really, when you train, when you're consistent with your nutrition, when you walk a lot, when you do some occasional sprinting, you play and you do things like that, your body is just fitter and better at utilizing the fuel you give it. That's the way I like to explain this, just at a high level.

Philip Pape: 28:41

Right, and you personally might thrive better on a slightly lower carb diet. Right, you're probably not going to thrive on very low. I will tell you that If you're trying to build muscle, it's almost assured you are not going to be that successful, I'm sorry, on a very low carb diet, you're just not okay. And it's not about metabolism or genetics, it's really how your metabolism has adapted over time. So if you come from the low carb world and you're listening to this podcast and you're like, well, interesting, I can eat a lot more carbs, just understand, there will be a little bit of an adaptation phase, right, and then your body will become more efficient at using whatever energy substrate that you consistently provided. Then, once you understand that, now you have the freedom to customize your whole diet, eat whatever foods you want within those guidelines of your macro, your micro, your calorie needs, and now you can have that adapt to your preferences, your lifestyle, how you like to go out to eat, your travel specific goals.

Philip Pape: 29:41

Am I going after muscle or am I going after fat loss? Rather than following a quote, unquote diet, a one size fits all thing, carnivore, keto, whatever it is, whatever extreme diet and they are extreme. People accept it. They're extreme. They're telling you to cut out a whole bunch of foods for no reason. They claim certain reasons that are not supported by science. But you don't need to do that. If you personally don't like a food or don't thrive on a food or have an allergy or an intolerance, well then that makes total sense to avoid those foods. But don't just fall for the one-size-fits-all recommendations. All right, and that is the power of understanding macrometabolism. It frees you from nutritional dogma. It gives you the knowledge to make choices that work for your unique body and goals. So let's just do a quick recap, since this was a decently long episode.

Philip Pape: 30:32

Carbs are broken down into simple sugars used for immediate energy or stored as glycogen for later use. Contrary to what you'll hear on social media, the direct conversions of carbs to fat is pretty inefficient and you don't just store carbs as fat. It all comes down to energy balance. Fats are digested more slowly, they're transported differently and they serve functions beyond energy, including hormones and brain health, and then proteins are broken down into amino acids that serve as the building blocks for virtually every structure in your body. They have a high thermic effect, they promote satiety and they're essential for preserving and building muscle.

Philip Pape: 31:08

So hopefully you understand all this a lot better than when you started, when you pushed play in the episode, and you understand why a balanced approach to nutrition works best for most people, why meal composition matters not just total calories, but the composition and the macros and then how your body adapts to different dietary patterns and even meal timing and things like that over time. And the most important takeaway again, it's not about finding the perfect macro ratio or the perfect diet. It's how your body processes the nutrients, tracking and measuring, performing and applying the knowledge of the feedback you get to create an approach that works for you, your goals, your lifestyle. That is exactly what I help people with all the time, that I'm excited to help them with, and why so many people get amazing results when they work with me in our coaching program. And that wasn't even a sales pitch for my coaching program. That was just stating a fact.

Philip Pape: 31:56

What I'm going to promote here is just something free our facebook group. If you found value in today's super deep exploration of macrometabolism, just join our Facebook group. That is where Joy asked the question. It is a supportive community. You can ask your own questions, share your experiences, connect with people, listen. One of the most successful aspects of getting a result is having accountability. All right, and of course, one of the best ways to get accountability is one-on-one coaching. The next best would be a group coaching and the next best would be a free community. So start out. Start with our wits and weights Facebook group and see what it's all about. Click the link in the show notes and I'll see you there until next time. Keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember understanding how your body works is the first step to making it work better for you. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How Cassandra Lost 11 Lbs Fat in 12 Weeks (While Building Muscle & Eating Carbs) | Ep 289

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Are you training hard and tracking macros but still not seeing the results you want? Do you wonder if your body is just “different” or if you’re missing a key piece of the puzzle?

I talk with my client Cassandra, who successfully lost fat and built muscle at the same time after years of slow weight gain—all while eating plenty of carbs. 

You’ll discover the exact system we used to help her break through plateaus, achieve sustainable fat loss, and develop a balanced approach to nutrition without extreme restrictions.

Today, you’ll learn all about:
02:52 - Why "doing everything right" wasn't working
04:44 - Small but critical nutrition mistakes
07:05 - Starting with a maintenance phase
11:11 - Simple lifestyle tweaks that helped
11:59 - Meal timing strategies
13:41 - The impact of walking and daily movement
14:55 - Coaching and accountability
17:29 - Cassandra’s results
22:51 - Overcoming food fears
28:55 - Mindset shift about weight trends
31:42 - From fat loss to muscle building
38:01 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Join our free Facebook group and say hello to Cassandra, plus get support, live Q&As, and accountability from others on their journey to strength, health, and fat loss

How Cassandra Lost Fat and Built Muscle While Still Eating Carbs

If you’ve been grinding away at tracking macros and hitting the gym but aren’t seeing the results you expected, you’re not alone. A lot of people feel stuck, like something’s missing or that their body just doesn’t respond the way it “should.” That’s exactly where my client Cassandra was—until she made some key changes and saw a serious transformation.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, Cassandra shares how she lost 11 pounds of fat in 12 weeks while building muscle, improving her energy, and eating plenty of carbs. Her story isn’t about some extreme crash diet or cutting out all the foods she loves. It’s about strategy, consistency, and having the right systems in place to make fat loss actually work.

The Struggle: Doing All the “Right” Things and Still Not Seeing Progress

Cassandra wasn’t new to lifting or nutrition. She was doing group strength training, working out on her own, and using Macrofactor to track her food. But despite her efforts, her body weight kept creeping up—about 10 pounds over three years.

Like a lot of people, she figured she was following the right process. She was eating high protein, lifting weights, and even tracking macros loosely. But here’s the thing: she wasn’t in a consistent deficit, and her macros weren’t optimized for her body.

“I would eat in a deficit for three days, then not for three days,” she admitted. That back-and-forth meant she wasn’t seeing the fat loss she wanted. And without the right level of accountability, it was too easy to veer off course.

What Changed? Key Adjustments That Made the Difference

Once Cassandra started coaching with me, we focused on a few critical adjustments:

1. Establishing True Maintenance Before Fat Loss

Like many people eager to cut, Cassandra had skipped the crucial step of finding her actual maintenance calories. Instead, she jumped straight into a deficit without first stabilizing her intake. That meant her calorie target wasn’t dialed in, and Macrofactor was constantly adjusting.

By spending a full month at maintenance first, she got clarity on what her body actually needed. She also realized that eating at maintenance gave her more energy, improved her workouts, and set her up for success when we transitioned to fat loss.

2. Dialing in Macros (It Wasn’t the Carbs Holding Her Back)

One of the biggest revelations for Cassandra? Her fat intake was too high.

She’d always assumed her carb intake might be the problem, but after analyzing her food logs, it became clear that excessive dietary fat was the real culprit. Once we pulled fat levels down to a reasonable range and redistributed calories more strategically, her body started responding almost immediately.

“I love fat—feta cheese, avocado—but it wasn’t as hard as I thought to scale back,” she said.

3. Structuring Nutrition Around Training for Maximum Energy

Cassandra was lifting early in the morning but eating a full meal beforehand. We adjusted her pre-workout nutrition, shifting her toward a simple protein shake before training, followed by a more substantial “second breakfast” post-workout. That change allowed her to train just as hard while making better use of her calories throughout the day.

Her meals also became more strategic—higher carb at lunch, lighter dinner—so she had energy when she needed it most.

4. Prioritizing Strength and Movement Beyond the Gym

Cassandra was already training, but we upped the intensity. She started lifting heavier, incorporated more structured progression, and even got extra support from her partner, who’s an experienced weightlifter.

Beyond the gym, she also made simple lifestyle shifts, like adding a standing desk and a treadmill desk to get more movement throughout the day. She committed to hitting a minimum of 8,000 steps per day, which had a huge impact on overall fat loss and metabolic health.

The Results: More Muscle, More Strength, and More Confidence

Over six months, Cassandra dropped 11 pounds of fat and saw a 5% reduction in body fat on her DEXA scan. Even more impressive, she gained lean muscle mass at the same time.

Beyond the numbers, she:

• Increased her strength in the gym

• Lowered her resting heart rate from the 70s to the upper 50s

• Built muscle definition to the point where people started commenting on how jacked she looked

• Felt more in control of her nutrition and lifestyle than ever before

And the best part?

She never had to cut out carbs or give up the foods she loved. She simply learned how to fit them into a system that worked for her.

What’s Next? A Shift to Muscle Building

Now that she’s successfully leaned out, Cassandra is thinking ahead. The next phase of her journey? A lean gain—a structured muscle-building phase where she’ll add muscle while keeping fat gain minimal.

This is where things get exciting. After spending time in a deficit, moving into a slight surplus will allow her to push harder in the gym, recover better, and see even more physique improvements. If you’ve never bulked before, it’s a game-changer for long-term results.

Takeaways for Your Own Fat Loss and Muscle Growth

Cassandra’s story proves that sustainable fat loss isn’t about restriction—it’s about strategy.

If you feel stuck, here are three key takeaways you can apply today:

1. Find your true maintenance before cutting—it’s worth the time investment.

2. Optimize your macros for you—don’t just assume you need to slash carbs. Bonus: use MacroFactor to make this super easy.

3. Lean on support and accountability—whether that’s a coach, a community, or a training partner, the right guidance makes all the difference.

And if you’re ready to take your own results to the next level, consider coaching to help you cut through the noise and actually implement a plan that works.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

🎓 Get your first challenge FREE (plus 40% off for life) in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) using code POD40

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free for evidence-based workout programs

🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been tracking macros and following a training plan, but still struggling to see results and you're starting to wonder am I missing something or is my body just different, this episode is for you. Today, I'm talking with my client, cassandra, who successfully lost fat and built muscle at the same time after years of creeping body weight, all while eating plenty of carbs as well. You'll discover the exact system we use together to finally break through and help her achieve sustainable fat loss without extreme restrictions. Whether you're just getting started, or maybe you're feeling stuck despite doing all the right things, today's chat with Cassandra will show you what's possible when you have the right strategy and support. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:55

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're doing something different Instead of our usual guest interview. I am really excited to introduce you to one of my clients, cassandra. Cassandra has achieved remarkable results using the systems and strategies we talk about on this show losing significant body fat while maintaining and even building muscle and, yes, eating carbs. Most importantly, she's developed a sustainable approach that fits her lifestyle, not the other way around. Today, you're going to learn the exact process. She followed the mindset shifts that made the difference and how you can apply these lessons to your own journey. Cassandra, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today.

Cassandra: 1:35

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat with you.

Philip Pape: 1:38

So I just want to start with a little background. We don't have to do your whole life story. I know that's not what you wanted to come on here for, but I want to understand just where you're coming from. A little bit about yourself. That and then what led you to seek nutrition coaching in the first place?

Cassandra: 1:52

Yeah, so I'm a 40 something female. I live in Florida. I have always, as my adult life, been committed to healthy living, working out, but that's been a long progress to learn about what is right for me, what changes my body. So when I came to you, I was not out of shape at all. I was doing group strength training classes. I mean actual strength training barbell. I was going to the gym on my own but I had noticed I was very slowly putting on weight, like maybe 10 pounds over about three years. It was just really slowly creeping on there. And I was listening to your podcast. I was loosely following macro factor but not seeing changes, not positive changes, and I really just needed accountability. I needed someone to help me just stay on the path, and that's when I reached out to you.

Philip Pape: 2:43

Cool. So I like how you said. You know you weren't quote unquote out of shape, but the weight was creeping on. And you know I like it when people hear real stories from real people, who. It's not like you're a total beginner, you know 300 pounds overweight and like don't know what to do at all. It's that you've taken the action, you've done things, you've gotten in shape, you're going to the gym. You even started using Macrofactor listening to this show, and I encourage people to suck up the education and try things for yourself and experiment, but still something was going on and you were like I need to figure it out. So was that the biggest challenge for you then was just, you had tried different things and there was some mystery to be solved, or what do you perceive as the number one thing that you said? No, I really have to have coaching, I really have to have that accountability. What is that?

Cassandra: 3:32

Yeah, you know I felt like I was doing things right, but I can look back and sort of pinpoint where I wasn't. You know I would eat a deficit for three days but then not for three days. And so for me, I think I just I needed the accountability. I needed someone that I knew was going to be looking at my nutrition every two weeks when you evaluate it and holding me accountable and calling me out if I didn't follow it. And for me, just knowing that I don't want to say pressure, but just someone there was really going to help me.

Philip Pape: 3:59

Yeah, I think support is underrated, right? I mean, coaches have coaches too. I've got a lot of mentors and coaches and the more I've been in this space, the more I want to immediately go and find somebody that knows more than me to help me out. So it sounds like there was frustration with even if you kind of knew the process, there was still something preventing you from really sticking to it and you're like just let me lean on someone a little bit, take off some of the, I guess, mental stress. Maybe Was there an element of that to it.

Cassandra: 4:24

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.

Philip Pape: 4:27

And then you kind of talked about what you were already trying. What do you think about? The approach you were using wasn't working, and the way I want kind of the listener to perceive this is, let's say, they said look like Cassandra, I've done those things and I know I need to be in a calorie deficit or whatever it is, and I know they're going to work, so I'm just going to do it on my own. I hear Cassandra, but I'm not like her. You know I can do it on my own, like I want to understand where that is, because I've been there too. Like, try to do it on my own, thinking, you know I got this.

Cassandra: 4:58

Yeah, so there were. Just I think there were things I wasn't doing them quite right, like I was hitting my protein and maybe the calories of my fats were really high and my carbs were really high, and this is something you called out when I started to go into the deficit. Um, you sort of called out that my carbs and fats were a little excessive. So we cut back on that and I started to see, um, a little bit of difference in my weight going down.

Philip Pape: 5:24

Cool and sometimes it is the little things. It's like boom revelation on day one and as a coach, I love that because I don't want to say it makes my job easy. It more makes it. It allows the years of times of seeing this with other clients allows me to bring that to you and say, look, go through my Rolodex People know what a Rolodex is anymore. Go through your Rolodex in your head and say, okay, this is the thing that might be helpful and if it doesn't work, we go to the next strategy. It's funny you mentioned fats and carbs, because you know how people have a fear of carbs and often say, well, I think my carbs are just too high. And a lot of times you get into the data you're like, no, it's actually the fats that are too high and that's what you're missing, because you keep trying to cut carbs but somehow you keep gaining weight.

Cassandra: 6:05

Yeah, and I love fat. You know I had a very high fat diet. You know I love my feta, cheese and avocado, but it hasn't been that hard to scale back. And you know we started with the maintenance phase, which I had skipped. That when I was trying to do things on my own, I didn't really think it was important and that was silly because it's very important. Own I didn't really think it was important and that was silly because it's very important. It was really helpful to learn like what my body feels like at maintenance and to also be tracking my foods and thinking, okay, well, I can cut this when I go into a deficit, I can live without that feta, and so that was really helpful for me and that was how I really learned to sort of trim the carbs and the fats once we got into that deficit phase.

Philip Pape: 6:45

Yeah, and it's great to have those foods you love and like try to figure out how you get them in. You said something interesting there about maintenance. So did you say you tried to do maintenance before we worked together and like tried to shortcut it? Or even when we started you were impatient to get through it? What's the situation?

Cassandra: 7:06

No. So when I listened to your podcast before I worked with you, you would mention it's important to learn your maintenance and you would always start your clients at maintenance. And I never did that. As soon as I went into Macrofactor, I downloaded it. I immediately went into a deficit and I think that was the wrong thing to do, because Macrofactor needs to learn your maintenance to be able to do a deficit or add weight. And I didn't really realize that and I think I wasted a lot of time watching it adjust the figures trying to figure out where I should be. So we had us at maintenance for about a month and it was just very helpful. It taught me to be very intentional about what I was eating and just learning how my body feels on the right amount of calories, and so, yeah, I'm really glad we did that together.

Philip Pape: 7:45

I love how you frame that and, yeah, I recall it took about a month together and for anyone listening, I usually recommend a month to two. But I'll tell you clients who are dedicated, like you were, who did the work and, honestly, the best coaching experience you're going to have a relationship. If you hire coaches, you've got to do the work too, and that way you're going to accelerate the process together. But a month is a reasonable amount of time. The shortest I've ever done it is maybe two weeks, and that's only because someone had already kind of been in maintenance on their own, coming into me to working with me. And then you said it's really about feeling and understanding your body, which is crucial because fat loss is a big change, it's a big stressor. It's a big change, it's a big stressor, it's a big, you know, a different variable affecting your body. It's totally unlike not being in fat loss, right? So maybe just color for people. What does that mean? By getting to understand?

Cassandra: 8:37

your body across all the facets that you learned during that period. Yeah, so how much energy I had was really interesting to familiarize myself with by eating a bait net, because you know when you are working with a client you ask them at every. I had was really interesting to familiarize myself with white eating and maintenance, because when you are working with a client, you ask them at every check-in how are your energy levels? And my energy levels were awesome. I was just killing it at the gym, killing it with my lifts, and it just taught me when I'm eating right and not going over and not going under, I'm doing what my body needs. I can do really well in the gym and have energy for my day, and I think that was really important to learn. And so, comparatively, when we did go into the deficit, I did feel those energy levels drop a little bit, of course, but I knew my body well enough to sort of understand what was happening.

Philip Pape: 9:21

So that brings up another interesting question about when you talk about energy and feeling this sense of, I guess, thriving during this period, because a lot of people, especially women who've been chronically dieting, almost don't know what that feels like, and so I've had clients who started the maintenance phase and then they decide they don't even want to do fat loss because they just love how it feels. Now that brings up the question did your goal sort of shift in your head, both the superficial goal of like X number of fat pounds to lose or what have you, and then the deeper goals you had. Did that shift at all? From the time Like you first hired me, you were all excited going home Like I'm gonna lose 20 pounds or whatever, to after the maintenance phase and we started fat loss, did you have a slightly different perception of what your goal was.

Cassandra: 10:04

No, not really. I definitely wanted to get that extra weight off. Yeah, so no, no for me. I had my eye on the prize.

Philip Pape: 10:13

All right, fine, fine. So see, audience, that's what's called. I didn't prepare Cassandra ahead of time for any of these questions and I don't know what the answer is going to be. So, as much as I try to lead her to an uncertain answer, she was honest with that. She knew what she wanted and, honestly, working with you the whole time, I knew you were the type of client that I would love to work with, because you're ready to go, you're focused. So then that gets to our approach, because people are like well, what did she do? I know she wanted to get fat loss and she was going to the gym and like, if you want to work with me, you should already be lifting. That's what I'm telling anybody who listens. Otherwise, listen to the podcast, listen to this case study with Cassandra and go, start lifting weights and reach out for help. But once we started working together, what were some of the big changes in your approach to nutrition and even to training?

Cassandra: 11:01

Yeah, I made a lot of changes, big and small. So I had been doing group strength training classes, as I mentioned, and then going to the gym on my own a couple times a week, but I definitely hit a plateau with that. So for me I did take on a personal trainer, which I know is not feasible for everyone, but that helped my partners and great weightlifters. So I asked him to start helping me more in the gym and that kind of pushed me outside of my comfort zone and definitely it was sore every day. I also made some smaller changes. Like I work remotely but I didn't have a standing desk. So I got a standing desk and a desk treadmill and I make myself take 10 minute breaks throughout the day to get on that treadmill and I hit my step goals that you wanted us to hit minimum 8,000 steps a day. So I was really good at that.

Cassandra: 11:51

And then nutrition it's it adjusted quite a bit, especially in the deficit phase. You know I was I'm a morning workout person at am and I was. I believe that I had to have a meal in my stomach before I worked out and working with you I learned to adjust my foods more strategically. So I started with the protein shake and then I worked out and I was fine and then I went on to what I call second breakfast afterwards, where I feel my body a bit better and then that kind of kept me full so I could eat lunch later and I would do a higher carb lunch and then a lighter dinner and that took a while to sort of tweak that in a way that benefited me and my schedule and my workout. But learning how to eat strategically and adjust my foods around exercise helped a ton.

Philip Pape: 12:39

That's really good, because sometimes people simplify these things, like you should have protein and carbs before a workout, and I say that a lot to people who are just not eating at all. In your case, we had to listen to your body, look at your biofeedback which, by the way, every time you checked in with me, you would share okay, here's my digestion, my soreness, my energy, my sleep, et cetera, and we can kind of see okay, this is trending one way or the other, or I'm struggling with this or I'm feeling wiped out in the gym. Let's strategize over meal timing, not necessarily what you're eating or how much you're eating. It's sometimes when. You also talked about the personal training and having a partner who's into weightlifting. So, again, that's great support, which is why it's awesome when you can be with others, even if it's not an intimate partner, but a friend, a training partner, somebody you work out with to kind of push each other and have that same environment. And, by the way, again for folks listening, there's a whole spectrum of how you get support. So notice how Cassandra had a personal trainer.

Philip Pape: 13:41

I have a lot of clients who have their own personal trainers. I have clients who lean on me for programming and feedback. And I have clients who are kind of in between, where they might program for themselves or I might give them a template, and then they're pretty self-sufficient and then they reach out for form checks. So it kind of depends on what you need and I think that's a great thing. And then the standing desk, the desk chart on the other side. I love that you mentioned walking, because I think when you and I started together, I definitely talked about the importance of it. I don't know how forceful I was, because now I'm even more like we've got to get your steps up, because I'm even more of an advocate of the importance for fat loss and for metabolic health. Well, like, what are your thoughts on that topic in general, about steps, oh, I'm a huge advocate of walking and getting steps.

Cassandra: 14:21

You know, I used to be a runner back in my 30s and my knees really hate me now for it and I just wish I had known that. You know, walking just has so many great qualities and like I can go for a good 30 minute walk outside and just feel like I've had the best workout. I encourage everyone to do it. It's just really good. Just good for the body.

Philip Pape: 14:43

A hundred percent no, and no excuses too. Right, I think anybody can find a way. I mean, you did the stand-up desk and the desk treadmill. Others might pace around on their meetings and others might have to go for walks and I know you have a dog too. That probably helps, right.

Cassandra: 14:57

Yes, forces me outside, for sure.

Philip Pape: 15:00

It's a great reason to have a dog. Okay, I guess another thing that comes to mind then is how did this whole thing feel? Comes to mind then is like, how did this whole thing feel compared to what you did before Cause I know we talked before, we recorded about a lot of this is really how you felt as a person, or what you were doing, the confidence, the mindset. You know what I mean? Just generally, how did it feel? Did it feel more frictionless, did it? You know, tell us about that.

Cassandra: 15:25

Yeah, it felt way more frictionless. I'm a very structured person and I felt like working with you really helps me keep a structure around everything trapping my nutrition and my workouts and for me that's very motivating. I like to feel like my house is in order. When it is, I'm in order and I feel good. So, yeah, it felt really good and then when I started seeing progress, like that's just boosted my confidence and it was just awesome, awesome to see those changes. And you know, I have never done progress photos before because I don't think anyone really likes to do those, but doing them with you, I'm really glad it forced me and I could see that difference. I mean, you don't see it in yourself day to day, but when you pull a photo three months apart, it's really great to be like oh, oh, wait, yeah, there's a lot less fat there. So I appreciated that that was incorporated into our process.

Philip Pape: 16:17

Yeah, it is. Interestingly, it's a very delicate subject and you know there are definitely clients who don't even want to give me the pictures to begin with and I don't pressure them because I'm like look, ultimately it is for you and you and I were talking before. We recorded that I hardly ever use before and after photos, even if they're fantastic, only because I don't think that's the message we're trying to convey is just that it's about the physical appearance, even though hey side bonus, yeah, you're going to look much better because you're healthier and you're fitter. So it's an interesting topic. Tell clients about how that experience was. How did I react? How did I use your photos during the process? Because it's usually pretty minimal, but maybe you can tell us.

Cassandra: 16:56

It's very minimal In the feedback videos, I think twice in the past five months you actively kind of pulled up the photos and pointed out what you, the difference you saw, which I appreciate it, because you you were pointing out, like muscular growth that I, like I was more focused on, like oh yeah, my waist is trimmer, but you're like no, I can see the muscle in your arms, you know, like it just it definitely helped me to see your perspective of them. You didn't focus on them a whole lot, like you're not analyzing them every week, so people are nervous about it.

Philip Pape: 17:28

Yeah, exactly Because because it's a very it's sensitive and I know people have. I mean, body image is a very personal thing. So I think I'm like, if it were me, if I ever had a coach share photos you know, I almost don't want to send the photos, but you that, that's what it is. It's not like every week. I'm like look how much skinnier or fatter you are, and look at this and that, look at your butt and your hips, and it's not like that at all. It's very simple, objective, as needed. Okay. So then, speaking of results, then what are some of the wins you got? So we've worked together for about six months and you had a month of maintenance and then fat loss phase. Maybe just walk us through what the periodization looked like and then fat loss phase.

Cassandra: 18:09

Maybe just walk us through what the periodization looked like. Yeah, so in total I'm down about 11 pounds and I get quarterly DEXA scans which, for those who don't know, you lay flat. It scans you. It's very unforgiving. You're laying flat. It sends you an outline of your body, your fat, your lean body mass, your bone.

Cassandra: 18:24

My body fat decreased by 5% and my lean mass went up a little bit. So that's, that's the muscle that I've I've put on. And there's also other changes that you notice, like my resting heart rate decreased by from like 70s to upper 50s, and that's amazing. I've never had anything below 70 for resting heart rate, so that was really great to see. And my clothes fit better. I look better, I mean there's just so many changes and I want to point out that my transformation wasn't dramatic. Like 10 pounds might not sound like to a lot of people, but a lot, but for me, I was having a really hard time getting that off and I didn't have a lot of weight to lose. So for me, I was having a really hard time getting that off and I didn't have a lot of weight to lose.

Philip Pape: 19:10

So for me it was uh, it was transformational, yeah, and the fact that you added muscle. I think we had a part of our conversation at one point was like you think you're good, like, in other words, you were super happy with the muscle. At that point you weren't even as concerned about losing any more fat, is that right? I seem to recall that at one point you were like I don't know, it seemed like some sort of shift in your mindset around the body composition.

Cassandra: 19:31

Yeah, yeah, I was going to say there was a mindset shift where I I really started to just become proud of the muscle that I had and it was showing and the strength I was building in the gym. And you know I'm I mentioned um, I used to do these group classes and I stepped back from those to focus on my other training. But I did go back recently and I hadn't seen my peers in a few months and someone said Cassandra is looking jacked and there was like this ripple of approvals and agreements and it just felt really good to hear that and to see that. So I think at some point, like I knew I needed to lose the fat to see the muscle. But that started to happen and I just started to feel really proud of the muscle that I was building.

Philip Pape: 20:14

Yeah, I mean you were doing both at the same time, so it definitely even accelerated the process. I remember one day you sent me a photo you were doing lat, pull downs or something, a photo of your back and, by the way, I love backs in general because that's something that I personally have a decent back, or some people struggle with that and others struggle with other parts of their physique. And yeah, she's just looking jacked. You could just see the Christmas tree down her spine and her delts, and that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I comment on physique. It's just good to see the development across all of that and it was exciting because you, just out of the blue, are like look, how excited I am at this.

Philip Pape: 20:47

And then the external validation. You know there's nothing wrong with that if you're not outwardly just seeking that. So the fact that you just showed up and they're like, hey, you look jagged, it's like, okay, great, you know I'm doing the right thing. So then, speaking of sets of physical, speaking of that, then the mindset, or your lifestyle. You know we try to work around your lifestyle, like with my clients, we try to work around what you're doing, even though there's change involved. So what's different both mindset and lifestyle since we started?

Cassandra: 21:20

So let's talk about lifestyle first. You know one of the areas which was a sticky point and still is challenging, as I travel for work once or twice a quarter. We also have a fifth wheel we take out, we travel personally and so learning to keep my nutrition and check while on the road was hard and we had to work through that. And I think the what we kind of agreed upon was going to maintenance when I do that and so rather than keeping in a deficit because that's really hard to do when you're eating out and buying food to go so I just kind of committed to that and looking at restaurant nutrition meals ahead of traveling and finding something that sort of fit my nutritional guidelines and getting that and just doing my best to not go out from that. So that helped a ton. But also one of the reasons I wanted to work with you is I didn't feel like I had to cut out things that I enjoy in my life. I love ice cream, I love nothing but cakes, like I don't want it to be able to eat those and I could and it's what it's not like every day. But like you know, I was still could make room for that in my life and I was still seeing weight loss. So I think that was something. I really appreciate it and also just helped me with my mindset, sort of realize like I can still enjoy my life.

Cassandra: 22:38

I also pretty much cut out alcohol, which has been awesome, and you did a podcast on this but I allowed myself to start drinking diet sodas Again. I used to demonize those like I'm gonna get cancer, but I allowed myself to start drinking diet sodas Again. I used to demonize those like I'm gonna get cancer, but actually I really like diet soda and kind of like I gave that to myself and it sort of kept my sweet tooth at bay and I think was a good, you know, certainly better than the alcohol and helped me maintain my goals. So there was just definitely like just some lifestyle changes that I took, you know, a little bit of time to incorporate. And then mindset, that's a harder one, but I feel like once you see your body changing, you're willing to just sort of do what you need to do, to just keep going with it. You know, seeing those changes helped a ton and just helped me really commit to our program.

Philip Pape: 23:31

I hope everybody takes that message in right now, because we've talked about the answer to motivation is not discipline and willpower, it's taking action and getting a result and then you get motivated. It's like a flywheel, and I see it over and over and over again and I feel really bad for folks who don't take that step, or if they take the step, maybe it's the wrong step or they don't have the support or education and even the things you just listed off guarding travel and alcohol and diet soda and everything and that it took you a little time to incorporate it. Those are all key messages here, because you took a little step here, a little step here, literally more steps, another step over here, and they just sort of built on themselves in a I don't want to say easy cause. It took effort, but like a totally doable way, even when you're in fat loss.

Philip Pape: 24:20

And what I don't want this podcast to be is like let's go through every single strategy that Cassandra used so that you can use it too. Through every single strategy that Cassandra used so that you can use it too. It's the principles of, you know, making it work around your lifestyle. So I really love that and I always like to ask this because you've learned a lot. You probably learned even more than you realize. You've learned, right, if you just like, sat down and wrote it out. But I always like this thought experiment If you went back to yourself before we got started, what would you tell that person? That would even accelerate it further.

Cassandra: 24:52

Um, that's a good one.

Philip Pape: 24:56

And you can even go back further in time if that makes it easier.

Cassandra: 25:00

I don't know. I think I would tell her to just not be afraid to um, tweak things and adjust things and be what she needed to do to reach her goals. I mean, I definitely was forced to do that with you. I force sounds like a bad thing, but it's not like I. Just you really challenged me to sort of think about things differently and it really helped me achieve my goals. So that would probably be my suggestion to her six months ago.

Philip Pape: 25:26

That's great, yeah, and I know you did that, so I guess what she would be doing is doing it even faster and quicker and sooner, maybe.

Heather: 25:33

Hello, my name is Heather and I am a client of Philip Pace.

Heather: 25:37

Just six days after I started this cut, my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana, turkey.

Heather: 25:44

As I tried to process the stress and trauma, my first instinct was to say, oh, you've been through something hard, this is not a good time. But instead I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day and he helped me keep my macros that day, and not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body, but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was going to need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months. Here I am on the other side of eight weeks, got my kids through all the things that we have been through, and I weigh 12 pounds less than I did, and I got a new PR on my bench press. I have a long way to go and there are still things that I really want to accomplish, but now I know that I can and I'm really grateful. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 26:33

There's something called a forcing function, right In math or engineering or whatever I always pull these things out of my butt where they use the word force can be a positive and what you're talking about in that something that didn't exist, now it exists. It's a force, it's a push right, it's like Newton's, whatever law. It's like you can't help but be like pushed along. It's like somebody's here pushing you can't. No, no, no, no, no, okay, no, I'm going to do it. And then, combined with all this tracking and everything, okay, oh, I know what I want to ask you. Speaking of the tracking, you said you're a structured person and appreciated that. What if somebody's listening and says I'm not that kind of person, I'm kind of willy-nilly, I don't like data, I don't like to weigh myself. I'm just curious what your thoughts are. Could this process work for them, or do you think it's like a certain type of person needs to work with a certain type of coach?

Cassandra: 27:20

I think I'm someone who loves the data and entering things so much it's hard for me to understand people who might not be natural to that.

Cassandra: 27:28

You know, I would really encourage them to just commit themselves to tracking for maybe a week and get it like a sense and make sure that they understand, like what three ounces of meat looks like or what 80 grams of raspberries looks like, and then you know, like maybe they could sort of not track, but I I just think that it's just such a benefit and hold you so accountable and it's really eyeopening. Um and calories out of very quickly and if you're not tracking those, it's really, really easy to go over.

Philip Pape: 27:58

So you're saying it's easier to track and have confidence in what you're doing and know what you're doing than to not track and just be totally lost. Yes, kind of what you're saying, yeah.

Cassandra: 28:08

And also the tracking. It doesn't take a lot of time out of your day. So every morning when I make my protein shake and I pull out macro factor and I add in what I think I'm going to eat for the day and it takes me two minutes and macro factor is really good at like following your algorithm of food, I guess, and suggesting what you think you're going to put in at that time. It's usually right at the top. I mean, it takes me two minutes and then, as I make the meal, I weigh it Again. It takes me five seconds and I just adjust it and it's there. I know some people just aren't inclined to that, but it really is very simple.

Philip Pape: 28:48

And it's just a habit that you have to make for yourself. Yeah, totally agree. I think you just got to do it. That was your advice is like just try it out, because you might be. You know, people say that they don't like something until they do it, and then whoa, I used to be that way, just about macros in general. Like I tried it years ago, the app was terrible, so it was slow, too much friction, I didn't know what to do with the number, I didn't know even what my targets were, and so of course it didn't work. But if it works for you and you get the result, then you'll see how amazing something like that could be. So, all right, is there anything else about like nutrition science or, let's say, your metabolism or maybe something specific to women that could be helpful? Somebody listening that you learned through this process? I don't. I'm not trying to lead you to any specific answer, just you know how we track your expenditure and we talk about stress and things like anything come to mind.

Cassandra: 29:35

Can we talk about weight trends?

Philip Pape: 29:37

Sure, let's do it. One of my favorite topics.

Cassandra: 29:40

Yes, you again.

Cassandra: 29:41

You did a podcast on this.

Cassandra: 29:42

But, um, you know, I think for people, especially women, the number on the scale carries so much weight and it took me a while to understand that the weight trend is far more important than what's on the scale day to day.

Cassandra: 29:57

And you know, when we're working with you, we weigh in every day, tracking a macro factor, and there are some days where I would get really frustrated by what I saw on the scale and I would pull up macro factor and look at the weight trend and there's a light purple line in the background that I think is your actual weight and that thing is all over the place. It's up, down, up down. But then the weight trend the solid dark purple line was always going down, always. So even during those periods where I was plateauing and just feeling really frustrated, I'd look at macro factor and it would sort of be my little ally encouraging me because that weight trend was always going down and it just takes time and over time you get there. So that helped me in sort of not putting so much value on the scale weight every day.

Philip Pape: 30:46

A lot of people need to hear that they really do. And that principle applies to lots of data points, right? Because you go to the gym one day and your lifts aren't quite what they are normally, you don't just give up and say like that's a reflection of your entire training program, it's just quote, unquote bad day. It's not even a bad day. It's a day that you learn from Same thing the. You know your calorie level. Like did I ever get on you for like being 50 calories off or even hundreds of calories off If you had a bad week? I never hopefully never berated you for that. It was more of here's data, right.

Cassandra: 31:18

Yeah, no, exactly. I mean sometimes you say, oh, a couple of days where you were a little high, but um, it's. You know, I never felt bad about it. I always felt comfortable. Communicating with you of, like, I had to travel or work was very stressful and I just kind of dress ate a little bit. I always felt very comfortable in our check-ins putting that in, so you sort of knew what was going on in my life and I never felt judged at all. I always felt comfortable yeah.

Philip Pape: 31:46

Yeah, and Cassandra's talking about the times when I like numbers attract me. So when I look at the data, I'll see like highs and lows and I'll highlight them. Sometimes I use yellow or maybe red. I like in my head, try to avoid red because it looks like bad and I don't mean to say that, but I'd be like, yeah, here we have some outliers, let's talk about what might've happened. And you know, go look on those days and see what happened and there's data for you. So, all right, you know results wise, a lot of mindset stuff, physique improvement, you're stronger, you lost fat. Where are we now and what's next for you? And we could even use this as a little bit of coaching on air, if you want. Where do we want to go next?

Cassandra: 32:22

Yeah, so I had a very stressful travel week last week, and while I tried to eat at maintenance it was a little over. Normally the scale is a little high and then it kind of, just you know, goes right back down and it hasn't done that yet, and so I feel like we should still be in a deficit for a little bit longer. But kind of once I get to a range where I'm feeling really good, I think the focus for me is going to be muscle building. You talked about doing something like a I can't remember what you called it like a light gain or something like that Lean gain. Yes, that's it. Maybe going into that next.

Philip Pape: 32:57

Yeah, and just so folks know what Cassandra's talking about, for me, a lean gain is still meaningful gain. It's not like if you Google lean gain right now and say I want to see what she's talking about, you're going to see a lot of conflicting advice, just like you will with everything when you Google it, and maybe you're not even fully aware, cassandra, what I would recommend to you. But it's like you're going to gain some pounds back. You know what I mean. You're going to gain some pounds back over a six or nine month period, but a lot of that's going to be muscle and for hit it hard, you're going to experience a level of ability to push like you've never had before. I can't even explain it to you until you get there. But all this stuff you're talking about using the results to give you motivation there's a whole world you haven't experienced. I'm so excited for you and I only say that because I personally, every time I go through a bulk, relearn or learn again the potential that the human body has, and I think it accelerates when you're not only well-fed but super well-fed, like when you are in that surplus.

Philip Pape: 33:54

Most people listening are like what do you mean? I'm just going to gain weight and get fat. That's the opposite of what we're talking about. We're talking about training three, four, five days a week, really hard, on a structured program, and you're feeding your body all the fuel it needs and then some. So I like your approach, since you have had a whole mentally healthy approach on the fat loss and you know how to do it. Another few pounds for the psychology of it. But also, when you stop, you know you're going to bump back up and I know you told this to me yourself in a check-in. You're going to probably pop up like maybe three pounds or something where I don't know. I think you're sitting at like 127 now or something. Right, I hope you don't mind that I said that. And so let's say you get down to 125, you'll pop back up to maybe 128 once you go back to maintenance, because of the fluid, which also scares a lot of people when they're not in control of this process, because it feels like I'm getting all the weight back right. So don't be afraid of that.

Philip Pape: 34:49

And then, just like before fat loss, we normalize at maintenance before muscle gain, and that's more just to let the numbers even out so that you don't over undershoot during a muscle gain, or else you get really frustrated initially and then really it's just step on the pedal for at least six months at. For you, cassandra, I'd probably recommend I'm going to say 0.3% or 0.4% body weight a week, so we don't have to do the math on air, but like whatever that comes out to be times, 26 weeks is that six months? I guess you're probably going to look at like around the 10 pound mark, which sounds insane because you just lost almost that much, but well over half of that should be muscle Right. And then then you cut five or 10 pounds and you'll be sitting five pounds heavier than you are right now and all of that's muscle right. So all that muscle that's popping out all over on you right now, it's just going to be more of that is what it's going to happen. How does that sound?

Cassandra: 35:51

Yeah, no, that sounds, that sounds good yeah.

Philip Pape: 35:54

Okay, yeah, yeah, we can map that out. But I mean, do you have any thoughts or fears or like questions about gaining?

Cassandra: 36:00

I mean, you know, some of the non-scale wins is just like being able to fit into clothes that I haven't been able to fit into and button up pants that didn't button up, and so I don't know, if we do that, am I not going to be able to fit in those clothes for a while and then it goes back down, or like how that impacts my you know size, I guess.

Philip Pape: 36:21

So the honest answers? I don't know, because it's going to depend on how your body responds to the measurements that affect your clothes. And why I say it that way is you know, you're not going to gain as much fat as you had. You're going to gain a percentage of the weight as fat, but you might gain it all in your midsection, where somebody else gains it somewhere else. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, so the distribution, the chances are. However, you won't, and what will happen is you're it almost feel like your muscles outpacing your fat and then you'll get to a point where you might feel a little uncomfortable or like it's starting to push into that old pant size a little bit. But you'll have been measuring your waist the whole time and you'll kind of know that. But, like, the waist size will creep up, but also the muscle size will creep up. And it's this fine dance Don't throw away your old clothes. But this is dance don't throw away your old clothes. But this is also why I generally prefer doing bulks through the winter months.

Philip Pape: 37:14

So we should talk about an advanced strategy where maybe you just hold on to all your progress through the summer and just have fun during beach season at your lean weight and then go for the bulk. There's different ways to do it. Nothing's going to change visually for the first couple months. You know how it goes. Just like with fat loss. It takes a while and then it'll start to all of a sudden happen and for some people, cassandra, really, they can go quite a while on a gain, because what happens is the muscle that they're adding almost makes up for the fat, in that it gets distributed more aesthetically and also kind of pushes out your skin and fat. You know it kind of just pushes it out. You have a little more surface area to use, so it doesn't actually look fat and it's almost healthier to have that little extra layer of fat too. So, but a lot of interesting things about the process that you're going to learn.

Philip Pape: 38:03

Okay, all right. So last thing to wrap this up I know there's some people watching who are in the same spot you were a few months ago. Maybe they even have a lot more progress to go. Maybe they're not training consistently yet, whatever, and they're struggling in some way. Maybe it's a loose fat. Maybe they've tried macros and it hasn't worked for them. What would you say to them, like if they're on the fence about what to do. What would you say to them?

Cassandra: 38:25

what to do. What would you say to them?

Philip Pape: 38:27

Well, I'd tell them to hire you as a coach.

Cassandra: 38:36

Sure, I appreciate that. Yeah, no, it's helped to have someone else being a second set of eyes in your life. I mean, we talked about the accountability, but you know, I've spent a lot of time the past 10 years or so learning about nutrition and weightlifting and I still learned so much more in my process with you that really helped me achieve my goals. And I think it just if it's really important to you to dial it in having a coach to help you is essential and it's an investment, but it's an investment in yourself, your health, your future, so I would encourage them to do that.

Philip Pape: 39:05

Awesome, awesome, awesome. So you heard it from Cassandra and, by the way, we have multiple ways to support people, all the way from free things like our Facebook group, through lower budget, all the way to one-on-one coaching. So I'm not trying to exclude people if you need the help, so keep that in mind. Is there anything you wish I'd asked or a topic you wanted to bring up that I didn't bring up?

Cassandra: 39:25

Just on what you said. You know you have a Facebook group. That's really good. I don't post in there a lot, but I'm really impressed by sort of the quality of the questions and the posts. So for people who might not be ready to hire a coach, I'd say start there. That's where I started before I decided to hire you as a coach and it definitely influenced my decision to go with you and I also learned a lot from that group as well. So that's my final thought. I think we've kind of covered most everything that I've learned. It's been a really great process.

Philip Pape: 39:56

Well, it's been amazing talking to you. If anybody wants to reach out to you, since you're in the Facebook group, they should just join the Facebook group and then they'll find you in there. We'll include a link to that in the show notes. And also, I was thinking the other way. I don't think you and I took advantage. Did you do the free call with me beginning, I forget? Are you just like signed up?

Cassandra: 40:13

No, I emailed you and then we, we went and we just took off because you're ready, you're ready.

Philip Pape: 40:17

But if you're hesitant, you're listening. I do do a like a 15 minute call all the time with folks, and that's not a sales pitch, that's and again, you didn't experience that, but it's a lot like 15 minutes of this conversation we just had basically just chatting about what your goals are and then what the next steps. Anyway, thank you again for sharing your story. I really appreciate you doing this, cassandra. I hope people are super inspired about what they can achieve and I'm really excited to see what's next for you.

Cassandra: 40:41

Well, thank you for having me. It's been such a fun process the past five months and it was really great to chat with you about it.

Philip Pape: 40:48

You're an amazing client, Cassandra An amazing person as well. Thanks for coming on.

Cassandra: 40:54

Thank you so much.

What Your HRV Numbers Actually Mean (Resonance Theory) | Ep 288

Submit a question for the podcast (and get a personal reply plus a shoutout). Just go to witsandweights.com/question

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Confused about what those HRV numbers mean on your wearable device? Or if they even matter?

Learn how Resonance Theory, the same science behind musical instruments and bridge collapses, reveals why focusing only on heart rate variability (HRV) numbers misses the bigger picture of what's happening in your body.

Main Takeaways:

• Your absolute HRV number matters less than changes from your baseline

• 3 key factors affect your baseline HRV

• Daily factors like sleep, alcohol, and stress can push you away from baseline

• Looking for patterns over 2-3 weeks is more valuable than daily numbers

• Understanding your body's natural frequencies helps optimize training and recovery

Episode Mentioned:

• Interview with Dr. Peter Martone [Episode ###]

Timestamps: 

2:01 - What is resonance theory?
4:08 - Interpreting HRV numbers and using data effectively
10:43 - Tips to improve HRV 

Remember, to submit your question for a future episode, go to  witsandweights.com/question and you'll get a personal reply from me plus a shoutout on the show!

What Your HRV Numbers Really Mean and How to Use Them to Improve Recovery

Heart Rate Variability (HRV) is one of those health metrics that pops up on your fitness tracker, but what does it actually tell you? You might see numbers jump from 25 to 65 overnight and hear that “higher is better,” but is that really true?

In this article, we break down what HRV really measures, why the absolute number doesn’t matter as much as trends, and how resonance theory explains your body’s natural rhythms. By the end of this article, you’ll know exactly how to use HRV to optimize your training, recovery, and overall well-being.

What Is HRV and Why Should You Care?

HRV measures the small variations in time between your heartbeats. Unlike a steady drumbeat, your heart isn’t perfectly rhythmic—it adapts to what’s happening inside and outside your body.

A higher HRV generally means your body is in a more relaxed, adaptive state (parasympathetic nervous system is dominant). A lower HRV suggests higher stress, fatigue, or poor recovery (sympathetic nervous system is dominant).

But here’s the key: HRV is highly individual. What’s low for one person might be completely normal for another. Instead of focusing on an arbitrary “good” number, the real value comes from tracking your personal trends over time.

Resonance Theory and Why Your Body Functions Like a Tuning Fork

To really understand HRV, let’s talk about resonance theory.

In engineering, resonance happens when something vibrates at its natural frequency. Think about a tuning fork that hums at a precise pitch or a child swinging higher when pushed at the right timing.

Your body operates on natural rhythms, too:

• Your heart rate beats around 60 times per minute at rest.

• Your breathing rate is about 12-20 breaths per minute.

• Your sleep cycles follow a predictable pattern.

When these systems sync up, your body operates at peak efficiency. But when stress, poor sleep, overtraining, or bad nutrition throw things out of sync, HRV takes a hit.

What Your HRV Numbers Actually Mean

HRV scores range from below 20 to over 200 milliseconds, and here’s what really affects them:

1. Age

HRV tends to decrease with age, but it’s not just about getting older. The bigger factor is lifestyle—lower muscle mass, less movement, and more stress cause the decline, not just aging itself.

2. Fitness Level

Better cardiovascular health usually means a higher HRV, but you don’t need to run marathons to improve it. Strength training, walking, and general movement all contribute to a well-functioning nervous system.

3. Genetics

Some people are just wired to have higher HRV than others. That’s why your personal baseline matters more than any universal standard.

How to Interpret HRV Trends

Instead of obsessing over daily changes, look for patterns over weeks and months.

• A sudden drop (20% or more) – You might be under-recovered due to poor sleep, alcohol, stress, or a tough workout.

• A consistent downward trend – Overtraining or chronic stress could be wearing you down. Time to reassess training volume or lifestyle factors.

• A gradual increase – Your recovery habits are working, and you’re adapting well to training.

• Extreme daily swings – Your body’s rhythms might be out of sync due to inconsistent sleep, erratic training, or stress.

HRV is best tracked overnight with wearables like the Oura Ring, Whoop, or Garmin since that’s when external variables (movement, food, etc.) don’t interfere as much.

How to Use HRV to Optimize Training and Recovery

Breathe Your Way to a Better HRV

Deep breathing exercises like box breathing (inhale 4 sec, hold 4 sec, exhale 4 sec, hold 4 sec) can help regulate HRV by calming your nervous system. The key is slow, controlled breaths—around 6 breaths per minute tends to match the body's natural rhythm.

Train Smarter, Not Just Harder

HRV trends can help guide training intensity, but don’t let them dictate every session. Instead, use them as one piece of the recovery puzzle. If HRV is tanking consistently, it’s worth adjusting your volume, sleep, or stress management.

Sleep and Nutrition Matter More Than You Think

Poor sleep wrecks HRV. Alcohol, late meals, and inconsistent bedtimes disrupt your body’s natural rhythms, leading to lower HRV and worse recovery. If you want a stable, higher HRV, sleep should be your number one priority.

The Bottom Line

HRV is a useful tool, but it’s just that—a tool.

Instead of chasing a higher number, focus on creating balance in your body through sleep, strength training, daily movement, and stress management. Use HRV to guide recovery adjustments, but don’t overthink it.

By understanding resonance theory and tracking your HRV trends over time, you can make smarter training and recovery decisions to keep your body performing at its best.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

you've seen those HRV numbers pop up on your fitness tracker or aura ring 25 one day, 65 the next. Maybe you've heard higher is better, but you're wondering what the numbers really mean for your health and performance. Today I am getting into why HRV metrics only tell half the story. Using a principle called resonance theory the same science that explains why bridges collapse and musical instruments sing You'll discover how your body's natural rhythms affect everything from stress to recovery. By the end of this episode, you'll understand not just what your HRV numbers mean, but how to actually use them to optimize your training, sleep and overall well-being.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're uncovering what heart rate variability, or HRV, really tells us about our bodies by looking at the science of resonance. I want to give a special shout out to Aubrey in our Wits and Weights Physique University, who asked a question related to HRV and she said quote I am not clear on what good, normal, bad numbers might be for HRV. So not only will we answer that question today, but you'll learn why focusing solely on those numbers might be for HRV. So not only will we answer that question today, but you'll learn why focusing solely on those numbers might be missing the bigger picture of what's happening in your body. Before we dig into HRV and resonance theory, I want to let you know that if you have questions like Aubrey did, and you're not already in one of our communities and you want to have a topic covered on the show, you can head over to witsandweightscom slash question witsandweightscom slash question link in the show notes as well, where you can submit your question to me. You'll get a personal reply. I will answer your question, usually within a couple days max, and then you'll get featured on a future episode and I'll even give you a shout out if you prefer.

Philip Pape: 2:01

All right, so I want to start with a concept of resonance as the background and in the world of engineering, resonance occurs when a system vibrates at its natural frequency. Now, every physical object has a natural frequency. That's the rate at which it wants to oscillate when it's disturbed. So if you strike a tuning fork and then it vibrates at its specific frequency, it's going to create a pure musical note, right? People can use that to tune instruments, for example, If you're pushing a child on a swing at just the right timing and then they go higher and higher. This harmonious timing creates what we call resonance. The opposite happens when frequencies clash right, A marching army is going to break step when they cross a bridge because their synchronized footsteps could match the bridge's natural frequency and cause it to collapse. I don't know if you knew that this isn't just theoretical. It actually happened to the Broughton Suspension Bridge. I think I'd say it pronounced Broughton Broughton in 1831, when 74 soldiers marched across it. Broughton Broughton in 1831, when 74 soldiers marched across it. And you may know the famous Tacoma Bridge that tore apart as well. Kind of an example of frequencies gone wrong.

Philip Pape: 3:13

And this is where it gets interesting when it comes to health and fitness. Your body operates on natural frequencies as well. Your heart beats around 60 times a minute at rest. These are averages, okay. You breathe about 12 to 20 times a minute. These are not random numbers. They are your body's natural oscillations, and when these systems are synchronized, they create what engineers would call constructive interference, which means it amplifies their effects. When they're fighting each other, you get destructive interference, and so this is why HRV numbers alone like let's be honest just about any metric by itself isn't going to tell the full story. If you have an HRV of 50, it might be fantastic for you but very concerning for someone else, and so it's not about hitting a magic number right. In this case at least, it's about how well your body systems are resonating together.

Philip Pape: 4:08

So I want to address Aubrey's question directly about interpreting HRV numbers. I don't want to remain theoretical here. For you guys, your HRV can range anywhere from below 20 to over 200 milliseconds. The crucial thing here that I've already alluded to is that these numbers are highly individual. I have clients with average HRVs in the 30s who are incredibly fit, and others with numbers in the hundreds who might struggle with recovery. So think of HRV kind of like your body's check engine light as opposed to your speedometer right, the absolute number matters less than how it changes from your baseline. So when you understand something like resonance theory, this makes sense. Just like the tuning fork has its specific frequency, your body has its natural rhythm. So three key things affect this natural rhythm your baseline HRV.

Philip Pape: 5:02

The first one is age. Hrv generally decreases as you get older. Okay, and like many things when it comes to age, my big caveat here is a lot of things that happen as we age are actually tied to other variables like a loss of muscle mass, a loss of fitness, lower activity, higher stress, and we need to make sure to separate the two. But generally, if you live the average typical american's lifestyle, which is fairly sedentary not at all what we are going for here a lot of these things will just simply get worse with age. But we're trying to defy age, aren't we anyway? That's age. The second of the three is your fitness level, so it usually increases with cardiovascular fitness. Okay, and remember, cardiovascular fitness isn't just from cardio. In fact, it's predominantly because you are generally active, you walk a lot, you move and you lift weights. It's not just because you are a runner or endurance athlete. In fact, for many people like that, they actually have issues with stress.

Philip Pape: 6:00

Keeping that in mind, Number three is your genetics, and that's kind of your starting point, and that's why the absolute number isn't as important as you seeing your trend over time and then making the changes to nudge it in the direction you want. Now, daily factors can then push you away from your baseline and this is where it's kind of a chicken and egg. It's like do you want to react to the HRV or do you simply want to recognize that what you do is going to affect your HRV and change your behaviors? I mean, I would argue they all work together, but just keeping that in mind, poor sleep is the first one, and big one, that is going to knock your systems out of sync and going to cause your HIV to drop. Alcohol huge disruptor to your natural frequency, Anybody who has an aura ring. If you eat too late or you have too much alcohol, you're going to see your HRV be worse the next day or overnight. High stress that creates dissonance in your autonomic nervous system and then even things like room temperature can affect how well these resonate together. It's why we talk about having a really calm, dark, cool environment for sleep.

Philip Pape: 7:04

So if you want to actually use the information because I know a lot of you you see it and you're like okay, that's great, what do I do? Instead of chasing just a higher number, which was the chicken and egg thing I mentioned I want you to look for patterns. Okay, Patterns First. You're going to establish your baseline. So you've got to. You've got to be tracking your HIV somehow with some sort of wearable over about two to three weeks and you notice that many things that we track when it comes to human body. It's like you've got to do it for at least two to three weeks. It just takes time to understand these things. Um, so, two to three weeks of your normal routine, your normal living. You're going to track your HRV during sleep, because that's when external factors are adding noise to the system, adding extra variables.

Philip Pape: 7:44

Hrv during sleep is a really reliable indicator from a day-to-day trend, and then you're going to look for significant deviations, For example, a sudden drop of 20% or more below your baseline. That usually says that you have excessive stress or poor recovery. That's a sudden drop. And do we always have to be worried about that? Eh, I mean, if you know why, if you, if you, if you, you know, got drunk last night, then that could explain it. Or if you had like an extra 2000 calories late at night, right, and you know what causes it again, chicken and egg it's like, okay, I know that happened, move on, Um, but it's good information to know why that the HRV dropped is because your stress level just went up because of what you just did. So it's a good way to correlate those things. That's a sudden drop. Now a consistent downward trend over several weeks. That could indicate, for example, that your training load is too high. Maybe you're overtraining and you're getting fatigued, assuming nothing else is pushing it up like some new source of chronic stress or some anomalous situation like travel. But again, that's why it's good to understand, it's good to take these measurements when you're in your normal routine so that you can isolate variables.

Philip Pape: 8:58

Multiple days of elevated HRV actually could be a good thing. It could indicate that you're adapting really well to training. It could also be that you just improved your sleep, Like I just started using a new pillow sleeping on my back. And I'm monitoring my HRV. It's only been a week. I've seen it go up, I've seen it go down. I don't know if the trend has is is has moved in one direction or not yet, Cause you can't tell just from a few data points, just like can't with scale weight or anything else. And then if, however, if, however, you have large day-to-day swings, so we're talking about huge ups and downs. Okay, and this is different than scale weight, because the scale weight, that's actually pretty normal With HRV it could mean that your body's natural rhythms are being disrupted somehow and that itself, even though it may not deviate to a certain value.

Philip Pape: 9:43

The fact that it's fluctuating so much could be a red flag. So, going back to resonance theory, where this becomes practical, and remember the analogy of pushing the kid on the swing just at the right time, well, you can kind of work with your body's natural frequency to optimize your HRV and if, for those of you who caught my episode with Dr Peter Martoni, he actually talked about the fact that if your HRV is higher and you're adapting well and handling stress well, it also could represent a more distinct gap between your parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous systems. There's a healthy separation and distinction between the two. They're not overlapping and conflicting with each other. So it kind of goes with this whole frequency resonance thing where we don't want them to clash, we want them to actually be more in sync and not interfering with each other. So if you want to optimize your HRV, a lot of this has to do with stress, but it's also recovery and training. It's the things that you're doing in between the recovery.

Philip Pape: 10:43

So, breathing practices you know we'll get talked about a lot, but they're they're actually kind of underrated. I think even just taking 30 or 60 seconds to stop and breathe it could be very helpful. Um, people with anxiety, whether it's chronic or acute bouts of anxiety, find that breathing practices are extremely helpful because it forces you to become mindful and it also makes your body feel safe. It feels like, hey, there's not a threat here, because I'm able to focus on breathing like this. How would that even happen if I was under threat? Therefore, activate the parasympathetic nervous system and relax. And it's like six breaths per minute tends to match your cardiovascular resonant frequency. So there is this theory that breathing in sync with your heart rate can be helpful.

Philip Pape: 11:30

Now, don't overthink it. This could stress you out. Just using a typical like box breathing technique, chances are your heart itself will also match your breathing, so it kind of works that way. There's also your training. So some people are actually using the aura ring data to schedule their workouts when they know the HRV is at or above baseline.

Philip Pape: 11:51

Now the problem, the only problem I have with this one is like, if you wait till the day of and you wake up and you're like, oh, my HRV is good today, Now I'm going to train, I'm not, as I'm not a big fan of that, because I'd rather you have a training schedule that is preplanned and sometimes, when your HRV isn't great. You can still train really well and actually you might need the training to kind of get you out of the funk, so to speak, and help you out. Um, it's just more of the intense training where you might be dealing with things that are exacerbating your existing fatigue. I think it's good to pay attention. And if your HRV is like totally shot because you just like whatever you did last night was not pretty normal routine, I mean yes, then you've got to consider seriously whether it's going to be most effective to train.

Philip Pape: 12:31

But for a lot of people I'll tell you what just going by feel is not always the best indicator of how effectively you're going to train or whether it's good for you. I'm sorry to say so. I usually recommend people just get in the gym, warm up, see how you feel and, you know, modify the lifts if you need to like, if low back fatigue is an issue or whatnot, but don't necessarily let your HRV tell you what to do. And then recovery protocols as well. Hrv is a good indicator of how you're recovering and so if you are pushing or backing off, or you're in fat loss or you're in a gaining phase, it's kind of nice to see the patterns and correlate them with how hard you're pushing and how much you're recovering, you might find that like an extra training day in between your training weeks, like two days off instead of one day off, for example, is exactly what you need to get your HRV to have a much better trend over time. But it's gonna take a while to kind of figure that out.

Philip Pape: 13:29

So I guess my point with this whole episode is to not really overthink HRV and use it as more of a lagging indicator of the stuff you're doing. Maybe it'll give you some surprise insights. A lot of times it's not really surprising why it's lower. But if you're trying to tweak something to improve recovery or your training, adaptation or stress, it's great to have a baseline and then see like three weeks later oh yes, it actually improved. So it is likely that what I did helped me. Again, the only caveat there is if it didn't improve markedly, that doesn't mean it's not beneficial. Whatever you're doing, it could take longer to reveal itself through your HRV, or it may not really reveal itself through your HRV, and that's why I don't want you to put too much stock in this one number.

Philip Pape: 14:15

All right, so tying this all together, this principle of resonance. It doesn't just explain HRV. It actually it reveals why certain practices feel almost magical. All right, so I mentioned box breathing. That is a technique used by Navy SEALs and most people think it works because you're you know, quote unquote calming down. Right, You're calming down, but there's actually a lot more to it. There's science behind it, because when you breathe in for four seconds, you hold for four, out for four and hold for four. You are creating a 12-second cycle and that is five breaths per minute. That is actually remarkably close to the resonant frequency of six breaths per minute I mentioned earlier. So I kind of buried the lead back then.

Philip Pape: 14:59

And then I recall that I had a note on this and wanted to share why that, um, that system, why there could be some uh magic behind this, behind the mathematics of our bodies and our heart rate and our breathing. I mean it's pretty cool, I mean it almost sounds woo, woo, right, but it really is mathematical if you think about it, Um, and then you're literally like tuning your body, like an instrument, bringing your whole system into harmony. And that's why some people do get really great results from breathing work, Um, but others don't, because you, your resonant frequency might not match up with that breathing, and so that is something to think about. In other words, try box breathing and if you can experiment with different numbers of seconds, you may find something that's closer to your resonant frequency. Cool stuff, Whether you buy into it or not, it doesn't hurt to breathe and to relax, guys.

Philip Pape: 15:51

Okay, as we wrap up, I want to recap the key points so you don't forget all this. Okay, HRV, resonance theory. Your absolute HRV number matters far less than how it changes from your baseline. Remember that, Like a tuning fork, your body has natural frequencies that work best when in harmony. If you can understand the patterns through both HRV, through your breathing, through your training, recovery, all of your health practices, it's just one more thing in the toolbox to help you improve and optimize the way you live your life. And then simple practices like the controlled breathing can sometimes help you even find your resonant frequency. Isn't that cool? All right, the beauty of viewing HRV through the lens of this theory, through resonance theory, is it transforms something that just seems like this random, complex number into potentially an intuitive tool. You know, you don't have to obsess over the number, Just learn to work with your body's natural rhythms and then the numbers will follow. All right, If you have questions about today's episode or any other health or fitness or nutrition topic you want me to cover on the show, head over to witsandweightscom slash question.

Philip Pape: 16:56

Witsandweightscom slash question. I'll throw a link in the show notes and then your question might and I'll say might, but almost most certainly will be featured in a future episode. I mean, I need a lot of topics, folks. I never run out of episodes to put topics into. So today we answered Aubrey's question. Yours can be in a future episode. Go to witsandweightscom slash question. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, just like a well-tuned instrument, your body performs best when all systems are in harmony. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Should You Lose Those Last 5-10 Pounds? (Nutrition & Training Audit) | Ep 287

To book your own FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment (not a sales pitch) and have me personally audit your training and fat loss approach, visit https://witsandweights.com/free-call

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Trying to lose those final 5-10 pounds but feeling stuck?

In this episode, I share a real live recording of a 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment with Libby, who wasn't sure if she should continue losing weight for fat loss... and together we discovered a better path forward.

You'll hear how shifting your mindset to body composition (not scale weight) might be exactly what you need to finally achieve the lean, strong physique you want.

Main Takeaways:

• Why continually pursuing weight loss isn't always the answer to achieve your ideal physique

• How to transition from a fat loss phase and keep your progress

• The importance of training frequency, steps, and proper nutrition

• Why gaining weight strategically can lead to better long-term body composition results

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

• Episode related to the fear of gaining too much fat - Why I’m Getting Fluffy Before I Get Jacked

Should You Lose Those Last 5-10 Pounds or Shift Your Focus?

For many lifters, the idea of hitting a specific scale weight becomes an obsession—especially when they’re down to those last stubborn 5-10 pounds. But is losing more weight actually the right goal?

In this article, we’re breaking down a real coaching conversation where I told my client Libby to do the exact opposite of what she expected: gain weight instead of losing it. If you’re stuck chasing an arbitrary scale number but still feel like something’s missing, this might be the shift you need to finally get the strong, lean physique you’re after.

You’ve tracked your food, hit your macros, trained consistently, and lost weight. But now you’re sitting at a lower weight than you’ve been in years, and something feels off. You don’t necessarily want to be lighter—you just want to look leaner, stronger, and more defined.

That’s exactly where Libby was when she booked a 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment with me. She thought she needed to lose five more pounds, but what she really needed was a new approach.

The Shift From Fat Loss to Muscle Gain

Step 1: Understanding That Weight Loss Isn’t the Goal Anymore

When we dug into Libby’s real goal, it wasn’t about the scale. She wanted to change her physique, add definition, and feel stronger.

Her first breakthrough? Realizing that chasing a lower number on the scale wasn’t the answer.

➡ Instead of "losing weight," the focus shifted to "building muscle."

This is a key moment for many lifters who’ve been in a deficit for months (or years). The lean, athletic look they want isn’t going to come from eating less, but from fueling muscle growth and embracing a building phase.

Step 2: The 3-Part Plan for Lean Muscle Gain

Once we identified that a muscle-building phase was the next logical step, I gave her a clear roadmap to follow.

1. Reverse Out of the Deficit and Hit Maintenance

• Instead of staying in a caloric deficit, she would increase her calories to maintenance for a few weeks.

• This helps reset metabolic function and ensures her body is primed for muscle growth.

• Key strategy: Jump straight to maintenance instead of slowly increasing calories (reverse dieting is unnecessary).

2. Lean Gaining Phase (3-4 Months of Strategic Bulk)

• After stabilizing at maintenance, she’d enter a small surplus (~0.3-0.4% body weight gain per week).

• Focus: Strength training progression and hitting enough protein (~0.8-1g per pound of body weight).

• The mindset shift: This phase is about building muscle and embracing the number on the scale going up (because that’s what muscle does).

3. Mini-Cut to Fine-Tune the Physique

• Since she had a deadline (summer), she wanted to feel leaner by July.

• Plan: A short 6-8 week cut to trim excess fat while keeping the newly built muscle.

• Key metric: Body composition (waist measurements, muscle retention) over scale weight.

Common Fears About Gaining Weight (and How to Handle Them)

It’s normal to feel hesitant about intentionally gaining weight. But building muscle is the only way to look more defined. Here’s how to reframe the process:

✅ "I’ll get fluffy." – A small, controlled surplus won’t make you fat. Fat gain is minimal if your surplus is within 200-300 calories.

✅ "I’ll lose my progress." – You’re not “losing” progress, you’re evolving it. Muscle takes time, and this is the next phase of long-term success.

✅ "I don’t want to eat that much." – You don’t need to stuff yourself. Increase meal frequency, add liquid calories (milk, shakes), and choose denser foods (nuts, whole eggs, ribeye).

✅ "Won’t I gain muscle in maintenance?" – Not significantly. Without a caloric surplus, muscle gain is very slow or nonexistent beyond the newbie stage.

Gaining Might Be the Missing Piece

If you’re stuck chasing those last few pounds, ask yourself this:

👉 Do I actually need to lose more weight, or do I need to gain muscle?

For many, shifting from fat loss mode to muscle-building mode is the key to finally achieving the physique they want.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
https://witsandweights.com/free-call

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

👋 Let's connect! Ask a question, get my FREE newsletter, or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS.

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free for evidence-based workout programs

🫙 Get 20% off Legion supplements with code WITSpod

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

Have you been stuck in the cycle of trying to lose those last 5-10 pounds, but something just doesn't feel right. Your workouts are there, you're tracking your food, but the results don't match your effort. Today, I'm sharing a recent coaching call where I told a client to do the exact opposite of what you might expect gain weight. You'll hear why this approach could be exactly what you need too. Whether you are a former cardio junkie turned lifter, a busy mom or dad juggling fitness with family, or just tired of chasing that arbitrary scale weight, this episode reveals how shifting your mindset about weight gain might be the key to finally achieving the lean, strong physique you're after. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and I want you to picture this. You've already lost some weight, some fat, through tracking your food, lifting weights, eating your protein. The scale has moved, but now you're stuck. You think maybe I need to lose five to 10 more pounds, but deep down, you're wondering if that's really the best way to go. You're pretty happy where you are, even though there's a little more fat to lose, but you also know that you want to improve your physique. That is exactly what happened during a recent 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment call that I had with Libby. I'm going to record more of these now going forward so you can hear what it's like to have a conversation with me and get some coaching on these calls. What started as a conversation about potentially losing the last few pounds or maybe going back to maintenance, turned into shifting your mindset toward gaining weight and building muscle, and in today's episode I'm going to share what happened during that call. I'm going to just play the recording for you and why this mindset shift about gaining weight could be what you need for your own transformation. As you listen to the rationale and the process and how this is done Before we get into it, if you're feeling stuck with your nutrition or training, if you want the same kind of clarity and direction Libby gets after you listen to this book a free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment with me.

Philip Pape: 2:14

It is not a sales pitch at all. You will hear this exactly today in the recording. Just click the link in the show notes, go to witsandweightscom, click the big button at the top or click the free call link. This is a focused, fast-paced strategy session where we identify your biggest roadblock, and then I give you a three-step action plan to overcome it. All right, enough of that.

Philip Pape: 2:33

Let's get into today's story about why sometimes the best way forward is to flip your approach. So I know you gave me a little bit of information when you signed up for this and you had mentioned, uh, your goal weight, your body composition. You've gotten to a certain point and you're wondering what to do next and really the purpose of this call. It's only 15 minutes, right, it's pretty fast paced. I want to get a fairly clear picture of where you're at, what's holding you back, what the next steps could look like, Um, and then really help you narrow it on one thing and give you a few steps to get there. So, with that said, what is the main reason you booked the call?

Libby: 3:08

Sure, so I am, I'd say, a few months into my new healthcare journey just learning about macros and protein and the value of strength training. I was always a pretty healthy-ish person, I worked out, I did all the things, but then I guess this month I just started to learn more about the macros, about intermittent fasting. I was searching in podcasts and I was like using keywords, and so that's how you popped up and then I just started listening to a bunch of your episodes and I felt like they really helped me like educate myself and just really really add to my knowledge base. And so I guess, like if, to just like kind of like set the stage super fast. So I'm 42, have three kids, again like more or less, you know, healthy. I'm at the.

Libby: 3:59

I used to be like more of a cardio person and then it's, you know, I learned that like weight training is really important. So I guess you know, what I wanted to say today is to tell you kind of like what I'm doing nutrition wise, what I'm doing fitness wise, and just kind of get your assessment on like where I should go from here. But essentially, like I'd say, probably in the summer I was about 10 pounds heavier than I am today, and five, six. I was about 150 pounds. Let's call it I wanted. My goal was like. I was like I want to get to 145. That would be awesome.

Philip Pape: 4:32

I mean, I'm a foodie, I really like food, I like to eat.

Libby: 4:33

I don't overeat but I enjoy it. I don't want to live a life of deprivation, I don't want to be in a diet, but I I was like, okay, if I could get to 145, this would just be great. And I started, you know, upping my protein a whole bunch, learning how to do that. I started intermittent fasting, but like baby fast, like just don't eat after dinner and the next time I eat is morning, that's really all it is. But that also helped me and I just found that I think, probably especially because of the protein, that over the past few months, like the weight has that weight that I held onto there kind of just went up. Like I just lost the weight. I didn't even feel like it was a huge effort and then actually I went past that 145 and now I'm at like 140. And so this is like an interesting thing for me because like I haven't been this weight probably since, like maybe almost having my first child, which is now he's turning 11 next week and I'm like I don't think my weight at this. My goal doesn't have to be weight anymore. Like I just don't actually like I feel healthy, I feel like I look like I feel good how I look, and so I'm like, okay, weight doesn't have to be the goal. But I am, of course, like I'm holding on to some excess fat, like it's in the stomach area. I've kind of always held like I'm not large, but I've always held some excess weight in my stomach area, in my thighs, and I'm like, okay, I think this is a body composition change I'm looking for, so I don't need the scale weight to move, I just want to add muscle, right, convert the fat to muscle. And so first it was the eating, it was like the adding the proteins.

Libby: 6:06

I'm using macro factor because of you. I used your link. Thank you so much for that. I think macro factor doesn't. But the thing is this now I'm weightlifting a lot more. So I don't think macro factor likes the fact that, like I put in that my goal now was 135, because again, I just don't even know what to use as my goal. Maybe my goal should just be maintained, I don't know. But it just keeps kind of cutting my calories down and I'm not. I'm not hungry, I'm okay. I just like don't know how much more I wanted to take me down Because, again, I'm weightlifting and so, if anything, I think maybe the number on the scale is actually going to go up a little bit maybe.

Libby: 6:43

And so that's the thing. So, nutrition-wise, that's kind of like what I'm keeping tabs on there and then working out-wise. I go to this amazing gym here we strength train. It's hypertrophy. They're like OCD on form. They have their eyes on you. I'm doing all kinds of things with better form than I've ever done in my life before. So I do that twice a week. I do Pilates once a week and then I'm trying to just then find a way to get hit in once or twice on my own or in a class and just like get my heart rate up, because I feel like I should have a little bit of that, okay.

Philip Pape: 7:20

I'm letting you talk because you're saying so many things that I want, if people hear this, that you've already leveled up and I was going to ask you, like, what does your training look like? How are you tracking? Are you eating more protein? So you even have a mindset of, okay, it's not all about the scale. So I love that. It sounds like obviously you'd listen to the podcast. What were you? What keywords were you searching?

Libby: 7:40

by the way, when you think I was searching like macro. I was searching protein. Okay, I was probably also stretching like strength training or like weightlifting.

Philip Pape: 7:49

Okay, cool. So, um, just just to summarize, right, you've gone through part of the journey. You've lost some fat I'll say, you know, not just weight. You've lost some fat. You've been training, you're eating, you're doing a lot of the right things, Right, and now you're wondering what to do next. Uh, in terms of not only your goal, but like which direction you want to go. So I was going to say, like, are you chasing fat loss? Are you chasing muscle? Are you chasing performance? Like what is the real thing? If you dug deep, where you want to be like a year from now, do you care at all about the scale anymore? It sounds like you're moving mentally away from that. In which case, have you ever gained weight? Have you ever intentionally gained to build muscle?

Libby: 8:26

So I know I listened to your episode about like. You know, sometimes it's not right to be like in a cut and you should do the gain. So the answer is yeah. I mean now I've done a whole bunch of months of like doing this cut and I'm like, well, maybe I shouldn't actually like, or even maybe I should just be eating at maintain so that I can like really build muscle. But yeah, I mean, that's what I'm looking for. I'm really looking to like convert the fat to muscle. That's like my main. Yeah, right now, yeah.

Philip Pape: 8:51

And I know. And what we mean right, of course, is is lose fat, build muscle at the same time. And when you mentioned a macro factor giving you lower and lower calories, that's because your expenditure has dropped Correct In the app. You've seen it drop. Now it could drop. It could drop for good reasons. It could drop because you're gaining muscle and losing fat already and therefore the scale isn't moving as fast as it would if you were only losing fat and Maca Factor says oh well, if you're eating this amount of calories and you're not losing as fast, we think you are burning fewer calories. In reality you're not. You're just kind of it doesn't know that you're adding muscle.

Philip Pape: 9:28

I see that all the time with clients. It looks like a plateau, but then you measure your waist and your measurements. How are you measuring? Are you? Are you taking circumference measurements?

Libby: 9:35

Yes, so I just started like I literally three weeks like I literally have taken two measurements. Now because, again because you cause you were like why didn't you start measuring?

Philip Pape: 9:45

So I started doing, do you, do you like? Just very simply like, like your clothes, how they fit, like, do they fit Does is your waist smaller, like things like that, even without the measurements, can you tell over this time?

Libby: 9:56

Yeah, I mean well, yeah, I mean I'm comparing myself at this point to, like, let's say, August or September. So, yes, definitely a definite difference. And people, I mean also the biggest thing is that I'm like getting it from. I'm getting positive affirmation from other people.

Philip Pape: 10:15

Awesome. And then, internally, what kind of affirmation do you want? And by what I mean by that is are you wanting to be? Are you wanting to be stronger? Are you wanting to be? Is there a athletic or performance related goal you have? Like, I'm just curious, beyond just physique, if there's anything specific you're going for.

Libby: 10:32

Well, I do actually this is kind of funny to say this, but um, I've never been able to do like a real pushup off my knees, cool Okay. And I really like to be able to just crank out some pushups. I'm just not there. I mean, I'm just not there yet, you know.

Philip Pape: 10:45

Okay, perfect, so awesome. That is a strength goal. Pin that and put that up on your wall or wherever, and make that a goal of yours. Because then, as you think about your training, your cardio, the mix of how you move because I know you mentioned twice a week training, once a week Pilates and then some HIIT Definitely have some specialization in there toward the pushup and, of course, if you need resources on that, let me know.

Philip Pape: 11:11

Um, a lot, of, a lot of women will want to get their first chin up, for example. Right, so there's a progression you can get there, um, but that that's a, that's a fun way to drive your need to gain weight so that you, when you start doing it, libby, you're not getting too concerned about the fat you might be gaining or the muscle, because that's the biggest fear. So I mean, based on what you're saying, I think the only thing really holding you back from like explosive performance and being super strong and what, um, what? Nikki Sims she's actually giving me the podcast from Barba Logic. She calls it thriving and strength. Right, thriving and strength is the gaining uh for muscle. So I think, if you're open to it, that a six to nine month building phase could be really solid for you if you do it at a conservative rate, since you're already tracking with macro factor. I mean, how does that sound?

Libby: 11:58

before I get into any details on that, I mean it obviously like sounds a little scary to me because you're just like you know, you're like I've made all this progress and like now is it real? Like what am I going to see? But like I guess what I could do is, instead of tell macro factor that I want to lose, I can just tell it I want to maintain right, and then it will anyway just up my calories and I could just try eating at that maintain level.

Libby: 12:22

Like it's funny because I am maintaining right now, which is why he doesn't like that I'm not losing. But maybe I just tell it I don't want to lose and then it will up me, would that be?

Philip Pape: 12:31

Yeah. So if I were to like, let's say, let's say you were a client, I never worked with you before we said our goal is to build muscle, I would definitely, I would definitely spend a month or two of maintenance to let things normalize.

Philip Pape: 12:41

And then I would go into a surplus, but you don't want to just be at maintenance long-term. If you're going to do this right, and since you're currently in a cutting phase, I would definitely set it to maintain for three to four weeks, just so you can let the calories come up. When you do that, try to overshoot the calories. A mistake a lot of people make is they stay in an unintentional diet. You've probably heard of reverse dieting out in the world. I don't like that term. I don't know if you've ever heard me say I don't like reverse.

Philip Pape: 13:09

Reverse dieting is when you just gradually increase calories to try to get back to maintenance. Well, since you're tracking with Macrofactor, you know what your maintenance calories are. Just jump right to there and overshoot it by a little bit, and then that'll force your body to recover as fast as possible. And then, over a several-week period, you'll see some transitional changes like a fluid retention, maybe a tiny bit of bloating. That sometimes happens initially because you're upping your carbs and your body sucks in more glycogen, and initially it's like a little bit of puffiness. But then your body adapts and it starts to release the fluid again and that gives you a nice chance to just kind of get used to that. See how you feel with your training. You should feel really good. Your biofeedback should tick upward, like you shouldn't have hunger. Your sleep and stress and all of that should like feel better, supported by the energy, and then you can say hit the gas pedal, go for a gain at something like if if you want to be conservative, 0.3%. Everybody wait a week.

Libby: 14:08

And I'll send you.

Philip Pape: 14:08

I'll send you resources on this later. You know, when we're done I'll shoot you an email with the steps, Um, and I'm also going to send you. Just yesterday in the physique university we did a training on gaining and the fears associated with it. So I'm going to send you like a Google doc that has some thoughts, just to kind of reset your mind. And then I did a podcast a long time ago that said why I'm getting fluffy before I get jacked and I, like was vulnerable about my concerns about that. That I think you'll relate to as well, so I'll send you those, Um, but yeah, I would. I would say maintenance for four weeks and then 0.3% body weight a week for at least six months. And given that it is, uh, February, you're in the Northern hemisphere I would take that all the way out, past any point where you're like worried about eating too much If you got off of the game, meaning like go all the way through the holidays.

Libby: 15:01

Okay, although this is probably going to like reverse it. It's just in the summer when we moved back to the States and I see people I know this sounds whatever. This sounds maybe shallow, like I just I want to look great when I see people in like July Okay.

Philip Pape: 15:17

So, okay, got it. Here's what we can do. Are you, are you pretty happy with where you are right now as a, as a baseline? Okay, okay, then what we can do is it is February, so, uh, march, april, may, june, july it's still a decent amount of time. There's a couple of ways we can slice this. One is to do like a, a mini bulk, which normally I wouldn't recommend, but it's something, and you can kind of dip your feet in the water and see what it's like for like three months March, april, may and then you could do a six to eight week mini cut and kind of get right back down to where you were, but having added a little bit of muscle.

Libby: 15:51

How does that sound?

Philip Pape: 15:52

Yeah, I would, I would we're trying that, in which case you don't want to wait too long to get started. So I'm going to say maintenance two weeks, bulk three months. Cut six to eight weeks, the bulk is, the bulk is going to be. I almost want you to go slightly more aggressive, so I'm going to say 0.4% a week and then the cut is going to be what's your expenditure right now? I didn't ask that.

Libby: 16:16

I'll let you know.

Philip Pape: 16:17

Let's see.

Libby: 16:18

My expenditure. Um so, uh, here's what it says right now. So it's saying 1794.

Philip Pape: 16:26

Okay, we're on 1800 and that's after the cut. Has it dropped? And it's dropped from like what? 20,000, 2,000, 2,100.

Libby: 16:34

Oh, do you know that I'm not? I actually hold on. Look, there's this insights graph. Um, let's see where. Would I see the very beginning of it?

Philip Pape: 16:43

Yeah.

Libby: 16:44

I think well, you know I haven't been using, I mean because of you. I haven't been using it that long, so probably I only started it in the high 1800s.

Philip Pape: 16:54

Okay, okay, fair point If you haven't been using it long and it may not have converged all the way to 1880 something.

Libby: 16:58

Yeah, cause I've only had like a month and a half of data. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 17:03

Okay, then when you go back to maintenance you're probably going to be obviously in the upper 1700s. It may recover a little bit over the next couple of weeks, but that's. It's pretty short timeframe for that to cause any much change. But then when you go into the bulk, um, you're probably going to be eating, you know, 1900, maybe 2000 calories. Like it'll push you a little bit. The carbs are going to come up a bit and then you do that for, you know, 12 weeks or so and if you do the math you'll see you're not going to gain that much and at least half of it's going to be muscle. If you're training hard, it's going to be-.

Libby: 17:34

And the funny thing is I'm like what will I even do with 2,000? Like if you give me 2 eating like this, that I'm like what do I even need to get to 2000 calories? I guess like lots of snacks, I don't know. I just I have a good protein rich meal and I'm like I'm full. I'm like I cannot stuff another bite in my mouth.

Philip Pape: 17:55

So I mean yeah this is where we can go down so many rabbit holes. Obviously, um, this is what I help people with coaching, but honestly, the the the easiest advice I would say is meal frequency is your best friend. Like having more meals?

Philip Pape: 18:09

because, that's usually the biggest challenge for people who don't get hungry is just um frequency and then a little more calorie dense foods and occasional indulgences are fine if you need to get them in there, as long as you're eating like 80% 90% of whole foods and fiber. Um. So I would say that for the food and then for your training. The only I wanted to visit that real quickly because, um, all I would think here is I would prefer you be training three days a week and if I was going to ask you cause this membership.

Libby: 18:38

You could do it's this, this. It's like this membership gym and you can move to a third day a week.

Philip Pape: 18:44

Yeah.

Libby: 18:44

So I just wanted to ask you like in in my scenario, you would do three days a week of weights at the gym For sure You're 42 years young.

Philip Pape: 18:53

Look, I'm 44. You're 42 years young. A lot of potential for muscle. Three minimum. I mean maybe even four, but I would say three. Um, I don't know. The Pilates If you do it for fun, that's great, Like you don't need it.

Libby: 19:05

I want to do it. It's like something that I just love, or whatever.

Philip Pape: 19:09

Yeah, that's cool, yeah, so. So one Pilates is three weights and then but like I, need to get right Like I should get some.

Libby: 19:23

I should to Fitbit like literally new a month I'm trying to hit those 10,000. And if the weather's nice here, more so.

Philip Pape: 19:31

Yeah, yeah, 10,000 solid, I mean anywhere over eight, is good. And then if you really want some little bit of extra hit to your cardio, hit to your health heart, but not hit. I'm a big fan of sprinting now, and by sprinting I don't necessarily mean on flat ground, I mean you could do it on a bike or elliptical or whatever. Really, um, simple short sprinting protocol. So you're going to look at it and say this is kind of like hit, but it's a lot more recovery and rest time than normal hit. And honestly, at this point, listen to my episode with Brad Kearns coming out on the 21st and he mentions the exact protocol that I've stolen from him, because a lot of my clients don't even do cardio in that sense, they just walk a lot.

Libby: 20:15

Walking is the best.

Philip Pape: 20:16

Thing you can do for fat loss. It keeps the stress low. Hit can be a little bit stressful. Granted, when you're gaining it's less stressful, but you don't need it unless you really really enjoy it. Libby, which most people don't Do you enjoy it or no?

Libby: 20:31

I'd say like not really. But there is something about when you're done and you feel really good. You know what I mean.

Philip Pape: 20:36

I get it, I get it, that's the dopamine and the endorphins.

Libby: 20:41

I get it, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 20:46

But it also. So just always remember that kind of addictive high is also associated with stress. So, um, whereas walking you don't get the addictive high, but you get the more long-term high. You know what I'm saying? Like it's super. So that's just my philosophy on that. Um, I think that covers the bases. Again, I'm going to number one. You're going to go to maintenance, bulk, then cut, and then you could always redevelop a new phase of periodization after that. It never ends. It's a fun thing. I'll send you two resources that I mentioned. And then I recommend up up into three days a week training, lots of walking. You don't need to do the hit, it's not going to hurt.

Libby: 21:18

I mean, if you've fit in, that's great, and then I'll send you a recap with with notes and resources later on.

Philip Pape: 21:24

Awesome, okay, are you in our Facebook group?

Libby: 21:31

Um, I don't know actually. No worries, I'll send you a link to that. I've looked at it.

Philip Pape: 21:32

Have I joined? I mean probably joined, I don't know. Yeah, all right, cool, I mean any other questions, anything else? Uh, this, is.

Libby: 21:36

This is truly like amazing and, uh, I may be reaching out to you at some point about coaching as well, so thank you so much. This is a great start and definitely I'm looking at it as like this is a long-term, like. I think, my perspective has you know what I mean. It's not just like a diet, it's like this is now like life.

Philip Pape: 21:57

I can tell you you and I are totally on the same page. I'm really happy when I meet someone like you who's like, just gotten the bug and discovered this, the the secret sauce of like how this all works based on the evidence, just like I did like four years ago, and it becomes so much easier. You're going to get all the, all the things you want if you just put in the work and um, yeah, I'm here to help you out. However I can Amazing.

Libby: 22:17

Awesome Thanks.

Philip Pape: 22:18

Libby, thanks for doing the call, awesome yeah.

Libby: 22:20

Thanks so much for your time.

Philip Pape: 22:31

All right, look for my email. Okay, sounds great. Thanks again. Bye-bye, all right, and that was my call with Libby.

Philip Pape: 22:33

As we wrap up today's episode, I really want you to take away one key message that sometimes the best path forward isn't always what you expect, and that's why some expert guidance and someone looking over your shoulder could be exactly what you need. Libby came to me thinking she needed to lose the last few pounds, but what she really needed or wanted was permission to build, to build muscle, to build strength and, most importantly, to build a new relationship with her body and the scale. And she was already on her way toward doing that, and now she's going to take it to a new level. So if you're in that place right now where the scale has become your enemy, where you're stuck trying to lose those last few pounds, or where you just know something needs to change, but you're not sure what, take that as your sign. Your breakthrough might be on the other side of letting go of weight loss or even fat loss as your primary goal. And if Libby's story resonated with you, if you're ready to get the same clarity about your next steps, go ahead and book that call with me.

Philip Pape: 23:24

It's a free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment. It's not a sales pitch, it is just a focused session. We identify your biggest road block. I give you some steps, some resources. Off you go and you find success in just 15 minutes. That's all it takes. You could transform your approach to fitness and nutrition, just like Libby did. Click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click the big button to schedule that assessment. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember sometimes gaining is the new losing. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Walking vs. Running for Fat Loss and Longevity (Brad Kearns) | Ep 286

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Are your long runs and cardio sessions actually making fat loss harder? Could walking be more effective for your physique and longevity?

I bring on former pro triathlete and Olympic coach Brad Kearns to challenge the conventional wisdom around running and fat loss. Brad explains why chronic cardio may sabotage your metabolism, increase your appetite, and even make you lazier.

Brad Kearns is a two-time US national champion and a former #3 world-ranked professional triathlete. He is the co-author of Born to Walk with Mark Sisson. Brad is a coach, researcher, and speaker focused on longevity, fat loss, and performance.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:12 – Why running is the second most dangerous sport after football
06:19 – The genetic flaw in the argument that humans are "Born to Run"
09:34 – How chronic cardio affects metabolism and fat loss
14:27 – Why most calorie burn calculations are totally inaccurate
20:56 – Walking is anabolic, running is catabolic—here’s why
30:02 – The best way to sprint for fat loss (without burnout)
39:09 – Why endurance runners tend to be lazier throughout the day
45:46 – The fat max heart rate and why most people run too fast
55:36 – How to run without destroying your metabolism or joints
1:04:13 – Outro

Episode resources:

• Free bonuses when you buy the book: borntowalkbook.com

• The B.rad Podcast

• Website: bradkearns.com 

Walking vs. Running for Fat Loss and Longevity

If you’ve been logging miles on the treadmill or pounding the pavement in hopes of burning fat, but the results just aren’t there, it’s time to rethink your strategy. In this episode of Wits & Weights, former pro triathlete and Olympic coach Brad Kearns shares why chronic cardio might be holding you back and how a simple shift to more walking (and less running) could improve fat loss, recovery, and longevity.

Why Running Isn’t the Fat Loss Hack You Think It Is

For decades, running has been sold as the ultimate way to get lean. But the science tells a different story:

• Running increases appetite and calorie compensation – More miles often lead to more eating, negating the calorie burn.

• It’s a catabolic activity – Over time, excessive endurance training can break down muscle tissue instead of preserving it.

• Chronic stress from running raises cortisol levels – Elevated cortisol can lead to increased visceral fat storage, making fat loss harder.

• High injury rates – Around 50% of regular runners get injured every year, making it one of the riskiest sports for long-term health.

Yes, running can be a fantastic form of movement if done properly and in moderation. But for many people, it’s more of a fat loss roadblock than a solution.

Walking: The Underrated Fat Loss and Longevity Secret

Unlike running, walking is a low-stress, high-reward movement pattern that aligns with our genetic blueprint. Here’s why walking should be your go-to for fat loss and overall health:

• Minimally stressful and anabolic – Unlike running, walking doesn’t break down muscle tissue. In fact, it can support muscle retention when paired with strength training.

• Keeps cortisol in check – Because walking is low-intensity, it promotes fat burning without excessive stress.

• No recovery cost – You can walk for hours a day without wrecking your body, unlike long-distance running.

• Supports cardiovascular health – Walking at a brisk pace provides many of the heart-health benefits of running without the downsides.

The Fat Max Heart Rate: The Key to Effective Movement

One of the biggest takeaways from Brad’s research is understanding the Fat Max Heart Rate—the intensity level where your body burns the most fat per minute.

A simple formula to estimate your Fat Max Heart Rate:
180 minus your age

For example, if you’re 40 years old, your Fat Max HR would be 140 beats per minute (BPM). Going beyond this threshold shifts your body from primarily burning fat to burning carbohydrates, increasing fatigue and stress hormone production.

Most people hit their Fat Max HR with brisk walking, not running. That’s why slow, steady movement is often a better long-term strategy for body composition and overall health.

Sprinting: The Missing Piece of the Puzzle

If you love running but want to make it more effective, sprinting is the way to go. Sprinting is powerful, explosive, and delivers benefits that long-distance running never will:

• Triggers massive fat loss, especially visceral fat.

• Boosts testosterone and growth hormone, making it one of the best anti-aging activities.

• Improves athletic performance and enhances overall movement efficiency.

• Doesn’t lead to the same metabolic slowdown seen with chronic endurance training.

How to Sprint for Maximum Benefit

Brad recommends a quality-over-quantity approach to sprinting:

• 4–8 sprints per session

• 10–20 seconds per sprint

• At least a 6:1 rest ratio (e.g., if you sprint for 10 seconds, rest for at least 60 seconds before the next one)

Unlike running, sprinting is about short, explosive bursts with full recovery. You’ll get stronger, leaner, and more athletic—without the wear and tear of endurance running.

Making Walking a Part of Your Daily Life

The key to making walking effective is consistency. It’s not about tracking every step—it’s about integrating movement naturally into your lifestyle:

• Walk after meals to help with digestion and blood sugar control.

• Take walking breaks at work instead of sitting all day.

• Use a dog walk or a podcast (like Wits & Weights!) as motivation to get moving.

• Replace short drives with walks whenever possible.

Brad makes a great point—walking isn’t just exercise, it’s a biological necessity, much like sleep. When we move more, we function better. Simple as that.

The Bottom Line

If fat loss and longevity are your goals, walking and sprinting should be at the core of your routine—not chronic, steady-state running. While running has its place, most people overdo it and end up harming their metabolism, increasing stress, and slowing fat loss.

Instead, prioritize:
✅ Daily walking (as much as possible)
✅ Strength training (to preserve muscle and metabolism)
✅ Sprinting (for maximum fat loss and longevity benefits)

By shifting your mindset from “running for fat loss” to “walking for health and sprinting for performance,” you’ll burn more fat, stay injury-free, and improve your overall longevity.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been hitting long runs and cardio sessions, hoping to get leaner, but you aren't seeing the fat loss results you want, this episode is definitely for you. Former pro triathlete and Olympic coach, Brad Kearns, reveals how chronic cardio may be sabotaging your metabolism and making fat loss harder. You'll discover why walking could give you far better results than running. Learn about how running impacts your appetite and hormones, and understand exactly how to optimize your movement for both physique and longevity. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 0:46

I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're challenging conventional wisdom about cardio and fat loss with Brad Kearns. Brad is a researcher, coach, former two-time US national champion, number three world-ranked professional triathlete. He placed second in last year's USA Masters National Championships in the 55 to 59 high jump. His new book, Born to Walk with Mark Sisson, exposes the science behind why extensive walking, not running, aligns with our genetic blueprint for optimal health. Today, you'll learn the metabolic reasons running can make fat loss harder, how it might make you lazier and tips for a more effective approach to cardio for fat loss. Brad, thank you so much. Welcome to the show.

Brad Kearns: 1:26

Hey, philip, I'm glad to be on. Great intro there. Thanks for spending the time and, yeah, we're going to roll up our sleeves and get into it, because we got some issues to discuss in the fitness world and it's been decades now of this programming message, of struggling and suffering your way to getting fit, that this is the path and it's time to unwind it, because so many well-meaning people have, you know, laced up their running shoes and, in the case of what we focus on in the book, but also, you know, devoted gym rats who are going in and taking a bunch of classes or immersed into the extreme CrossFit community and, by and large, following an inappropriate protocol that leads to breakdown, burnout, illness and injury and especially, failed efforts at reducing excess body fat and all kinds of other fallout, where the body is trained inappropriately and the results don't happen.

Philip Pape: 2:19

So let's go right for the jugular, because you took us there. You mentioned some trigger words for people, I'm sure including CrossFitfit, which I did for like eight years before I switched the way that I trained. What's wrong with running brad like what is wrong with it?

Brad Kearns: 2:31

uh, well, depends who you are, and it's really a wonderful outlet for people who are highly trained and well adapted and have that baseline physical fitness and musculoskeletal resiliency to enjoy endurance training. But it can easily lead to problems when you are not well adapted and you're coming from sedentary lifestyle patterns and then lacing up the shoes and heading down the road. So we need to look at running as a very dangerous, high risk sport because of the aforementioned fallout that I talked about. I talked to earnest high school kids who are competitive runners and then they get injured and their parent seeks me out to talk about my experience as a former elite level high school and college runner and pro triathlete and I say you know, you understand, like it's probably the second most dangerous sport on the high school docket besides tackle football. And it's this pounding and this prevailing approach where the obsession with repeatedly accumulating lots of miles day after day in the interest of getting fit for these ridiculous events that we glorify, like the 26.2 mile marathon. So it's inherently too stressful for the body and for most participants to gain any benefit from.

Brad Kearns: 3:53

Therefore, we have that tongue and cheek title of the book. We call it Born to Walk and it's a little bit of a take on the 2009 bestselling book called Born to Run, which glorified the amazing genetic attributes of the human for endurance. So we are indeed built for occasional magnificent feats of endurance as we are hunting down our prey on the savannah and evolving to the top of the food chain because we are able to access the big game and the nutrient-rich foods, and so that's part of our evolutionary biology that we are, for example, bipedal, so we are much better runners than a four-legged creature, and we have sweat mechanisms so we can persist and do endurance achievements in the heat where other animals might become overheated. We have an Achilles tendon, which primatologist Bill Sellers contends is quote the primary evolutionary adaptation that made human beings who they are, because our ape cousins, who don't have Achilles tendons if you go to the zoo and watch a chimpanzee decide to sprint across his area. He's running with this strange flat-footed style like a gorilla, and they're not well adapted for running any distance.

Brad Kearns: 5:04

And so we take this story and this message and then we have a very flawed misinterpretation and misappropriation to conclude that we are going to benefit from running long distances on the regular. So what happens when we get into overly stressful workout patterns and I'll define exactly how you can determine whether you're in an overly stressed pattern or not. But when we overstress ourselves with regular workouts that are slightly to significantly too difficult, that's when we incur these overuse injuries at an amazing rate. The stats on the running community are absolutely shocking and embarrassing. Yale University School of Medicine contends that 50% of all regular runners are injured every year and that 25% of all devoted runners are injured at any given time.

Philip Pape: 6:02

Yeah, I was going to get into that stat, so I'm glad you led with that, because two major things you brought up. One is the injury rate. I know soccer is another one that's way up there on the injury rate, which involves a lot of running but of course involves people crashing each other without equipment on, and I know lifting weights is at the bottom, if not the bottom lowest injury on the list, just so people are aware of that. You also mentioned the genetic or ancestral factor. Let's just talk about that for a second, because you made a great argument that it is a, not a red herring. What's the logical flaw when people say, well, if our ancestors did this one thing, then it extrapolates to everything else, which we do, for food too, let's admit it, yeah.

Brad Kearns: 6:38

Yeah. And then you, you lead with sentences like wouldn't you think that blank, blank, blank, lead with sentences like, wouldn't you think that blank, blank, blank? And I'm like, well, maybe not, but since you loaded me up, I guess I have to think that way, yeah, so I guess it's out of context. Evolutionary biology insight. So indeed, if we went and looked at the Hadza in Tanzania one of the last remaining hunter-gatherer populations on earth they cover between three and nine miles per day in the course of their daily business gathering or out on persistence hunts. And so the human has long been engaged in frequent everyday movement, until only actually recent times, when you think of, like you know, the industrial revolution. Before that, we were mostly farming and moving on our feet, and even in factory life, people were working hard and moving on our feet, and even in factory life, people were working hard. That's why we have three meals a day, because you have to fuel up at breakfast to go and bust your butt in the factory. You got to take a midday break because you've been working so hard and then you come home and you want more food and we still have three meals a day for people that sit in front of a screen all day.

Brad Kearns: 7:39

So modern life is so different that we really can't compare to some hunter-gatherer anecdote and contend that we too can engage in persistence hunting day after day.

Brad Kearns: 7:52

And in fact, the ancestral pattern was completely different than what we perceive it to be, because if we were to fail at persistence hunting, we would be someone else's dinner. To fail at persistence hunting, we would be someone else's dinner. So we did not chase after the antelope for hours and hours and finally prevail because it got too hot. But we did that once in a while and then we carried the game back to camp and we celebrated and feasted for a long time. And hunter gatherers, by definition, did the bare minimum physical activity necessary to survive, whereas today we have a tendency to overexercise, especially in the running and the fitness communities where we push ourselves so hard. Because of all the confines and the comfort and predictability of modern life, we feel compelled to push and challenge our bodies, and that stuff is all great and it's a great way to live a balanced, adventurous, active life. However, the problem occurs when you overdo it and compromise your health, compromise your fat loss goals and get into these ruts where we see as a common pattern in the fitness scene.

Philip Pape: 8:57

Yeah, perfect segue to talk about metabolism expenditure. There's a few concepts here that overlap we can maybe get into. When you talk about the Hadza, first of all, what came to mind is how much honey they eat.

Brad Kearns: 9:07

I remember watching the documentary about that.

Philip Pape: 9:10

It's pretty cool. But the idea of, for example, the constraint versus the additive model of expenditure you're familiar with Henry Ponser's work on that and the doubly labeled water study and then the fact that people overexercise I mean that is a key pillar we address on this podcast all the time is, a lot of people are doing too much and not enough of the right thing, and in my own nutrition coaching practice, plenty of a person, especially women, but I don't want to stereotype because men too will come in, just they're doing too much. And then you step back, you strip it out, you focus on lifting heavy and walking and all of a sudden so many things start to normalize. So how does this chronic cardio affect your metabolism, your ability to burn fat? And then we can lead to what are the alternatives?

Brad Kearns: 9:53

Right. This constrained model of exercise asserts that we engage in an assortment of compensatory behaviors when we expend an excessive amount of energy exercising. I think it was Dr Herman Ponser's quote where he said reproduction, repair, growth and locomotion are a zero-sum game. So locomotion means all manner of movement and workouts and your workout patterns. And then if we dedicate too much energy to locomotion we turn down these important dials of repair, reproduction and growth. So that means the compensation theory of exercise means if you wake up your alarm at 6am and go slam a spinning class or run eight miles in the freezing, cold winter temperatures in Connecticut, the rest of the day your body is going to conserve energy because you expended so much with the workout, especially if the pace was incorrect, and we'll get into that shortly. But it also means that this exhausting, depleting exercise pattern that many fitness enthusiasts are engaged in will dysregulate appetite and satiety hormones. So the 6 am spin class is paired directly with reaching for the pint of Ben and Jerry's in the evening and wolfing the whole thing down. The body does not like to be depleted and exhausted on a regular basis and we kick into these survival mechanisms that prompt us to overeat, as if the brain is telling the body well, I better finish this whole pint in case this fool tries again tomorrow morning to wake up at 6 am and burn 750 calories at spin class. So that's the constrained model of integer expenditure as we turn down other dials. And the additive model, like you mentioned, is this long flawed notion where you can go on the internet and calculate your basal metabolic rate and then go determine that a spin class burns between 650 and 700 calories and then add that up and, as the calculation finishes here, you should lose 42 pounds of excess body fat in one year because you're doing spin class three days a week and obviously we've learned that that's a disastrous, dismal failure.

Brad Kearns: 12:03

But to continue on this rant, to answer your question, what happens when you engage in overly stressful endurance exercise patterns is that you chronically overproduce stress hormones and they linger in your bloodstream, just like they do in our hectic, high-stress modern life.

Brad Kearns: 12:20

So we already have stressful lifestyle patterns that are in disconnect with our ancestral model and our genetic expectation for health.

Brad Kearns: 12:28

And now you layer on top that 6 am spin class or that long distance run and that 30 miles a week that you're trying to hit, and then work it up to 40 miles a week before the marathon comes in the final months, and what happens is it's stress on top of more stress, and when you put out too much cortisol people are familiar with that term as the preeminent stress hormone when you do that routinely, your body gets the signals, the genetic signals are sent to add body fat and shed lean muscle mass and, in particular, you are prompted to store visceral fat.

Brad Kearns: 13:03

That's the health destructive fat that collects around the organs, even worse than the subcutaneous fat, which is stored all over in your problem areas and is largely. It's not a big health concern, but the visceral fat has immediate destructive effects to your overall health and your hormone balance. And this is what happens to endurance freaks that train too hard and push their bodies without that balance of stress and rest and also a more varied fitness program where, like you say, you're doing the low-risk activities like lifting weights are far more safe than just jogging down the road with your elevated, cushioned shoes.

Philip Pape: 13:39

And I want to put a pin in a topic to get to later, if we don't forget, because I do want to address the corner case of the person who can do a high level of endurance activity and balance things out. I want to talk about that but in the meantime, a few things just to clarify for folks listening because you put that so clearly is, if you're trying to burn an extra 100 calories from more activity, you're probably going to offset a fraction of that, if not the whole thing, through this compensatory mechanism.

Brad Kearns: 14:07

Yeah, philip, when I worked for a spinning company, the spinning indoor cycling program, my friend Johnny G invented spinning and we were trying to educate consumers about different things and so we actually funded a study to see what the calorie burning was like. And a spin class burns around 650 to 700 calories in that 45 minute class. And then I did a macronutrient analysis of a Jamba Juice medium smoothie and a breakfast scone and it was like 710. So you're going at 6am if you do a spin class, you're going to be tending to reaching for that extra food to replenish depleted glycogen.

Philip Pape: 14:47

Yeah, and guess what, if you're tracking and you use willpower or discipline to not do that, then you're just going to be starving. So it's just either way right. It all works out one way or the other, and this is why I like the body, treating the body as a closed system. Because you mentioned BMR calculators and people know the pie charts that have BMR, thermic, effective food, exercise and non-exercise, and they try to add it all together and really what you should do is okay, this is what I'm eating, this is how my weight is changing. Therefore, I know how many calories I'm burning. And that's effectively what Ponser and the guys did is, they said, almost everybody on the planet has roughly the same BMR when normalized for muscle mass, when normalized for body composition, and so that's not going to be an efficient way to burn more calories, and I know we're going to get to one. That is that everybody knows we're going to talk about, which is walking.

Brad Kearns: 15:35

On that note, I came up with some interesting research in the course of writing this book, which was really fascinating. Someone who is sedentary and unfit this is the sitting is the new smoking body of research. But what's happening there is that they are engaging overactive inflammatory processes and stress reactivity end quote. I'm remembering this, burned into my brain. So they are burning energy in an inappropriate manner.

Brad Kearns: 16:04

And the analogy that was brought up was like the firefighters are in the station and they're not getting any calls on the truck and so they're racing up and down the stairs and then they're coming over to your house just for practice and so they bash in your front door and they run up around and they also put an ax into your stairway and then they go back to the station and rest and then do it to someone else's house. So we don't want these overactive inflammatory processes and stress reactivity, but that's what's happening if you do insufficient exercise and don't burn the calories in the correct manner through extensive everyday walking and dedicating yourself to an appropriately designed fitness program. And that's again because you mentioned the ceiling. It made me think of that and like, wait a second, how is my unfit, lazy neighbor burning the same number of calories per day, as I am. When I'm going to these, 6 am spinning classes. Some of it is devoted to the body not working right.

Philip Pape: 17:01

Yeah, it is fascinating when you look at walking versus standing and not being sedentary versus cardio versus lifting and when you kind of combine the best of those. I was just talking to my coach the other day about having better work capacity and conditioning when you're a lifter. Are there benefits to that from a nutrient partitioning perspective? And there is evidence that shows that if you're trying to build muscle, for example, and you're in a calorie surplus, a little bit more of that will go toward muscle. If you're a little bit better conditioned, it doesn't mean doing a bunch of cardio. It just shows how, like we're kind of meant to be fit people. You know doing things.

Brad Kearns: 17:36

Yeah, and also, uh, you're probably familiar with Chris Hinshaw. He's a big coach in the CrossFit scene, his business is called Aerobic Capacity and he's a former compatriot of mine on the professional triathlon circuit. So we both had that extreme endurance background Now, you know, transformed into he's a big CrossFit guy and I'm a sprinter and a high jumper in Masters track and field. But he was discovering when he started working with the CrossFit athletes that these guys are so powerful and explosive and have the amazing ability to do 10 box jumps and then climb the rope and then do some upside down handstand pushups. However, with the lack of that baseline endurance or that baseline aerobic capacity, they're going to do this amazingly impressive workout and bomb out in 17 minutes instead of 31. And they're going to get eliminated in the CrossFit Games regionals instead of going to the finals. So every athlete in every sport obviously the elite soccer players and the NBA players who are running up and down the court everyone needs this aerobic foundation in order to thrive and perform, even in the most explosive events.

Brad Kearns: 18:44

A power lifter okay, the most explosive sport of all where your effort is four seconds long, the longest thing they're asking you to do is lift the weight off the ground. But how long do these guys' workouts last? They last for hours. They do a two and a half hour weightlifting session. So as soon as you get out of the car and walk through the parking lot to the front door of the gym and beep your pass and get your towel and head over to the weights and do a warm-up set and then sit and go through your text messages, which apparently is part of gym culture these days. And I often wonder because I'm not a big gym guy, philip, but I'm like I see a guy on the bench press machine that I want to use, but he's resting between sets and sending text messages. Is it okay to say hey?

Philip Pape: 19:30

can you text like one bench over, so I can do my one set and move on with my life. It is okay. It is okay. It's a genetic to say can I work in there? Yeah, you should tell him to pace around, get some steps, yeah exactly, but I'm making the point.

Brad Kearns: 19:39

It's like as soon as you get out of your car car your heart rate is at least double resting rate, and spiking up even higher when you're doing sets. But when you're sitting on the bench texting it's still double resting rate. So you are getting a cardiovascular training effect for that entire hour and 45 minutes that you're goofing around in the gym in between doing hard stuff, and so that counts toward your cardio quotient to the extent that you don't have to go and pound out miles on the road to hit that checkbox on your total fitness scoreboard.

Philip Pape: 20:14

Yeah, that's right Because, again, I used to do CrossFit and you get conditioned but you also burn out and if you look at the competitors, they also focus a lot on their strength and their exercise. You know their movements to where they have a strength base as well, such that the cardio, the conditioning for them, visceral fat. But you mentioned something specific. You said it can break down muscle tissue, I believe, which means it's catabolic, and people love to understand, or don't always understand, that concept of anabolic behaviors eating anabolically, having higher energy flux through walking that it's anabolic. Recovering is anabolic, Hormones are anabolic, but catabolic is the opposite. I don't know where you stand on carbs. This is just a side tangent, but I often talk about how sometimes carbs can be anti-catabolic when you're building muscle. But anyway, that's a separate topic yeah, well said, exactly.

Philip Pape: 21:09

Yeah, yeah. So I know you said walking is anabolic and running is catabolic, so maybe explain that a little more for folks.

Brad Kearns: 21:16

Oh, my goodness, that's so funny. You bring up this because Mark and I spent probably a week talking back and forth to add a couple paragraphs to the book to explain it properly, and it's so complex, but we want to give you the simple insights. But just as a background, like body is, it's an oversimplification to say this is catabolic, this is anabolic, but it makes the point really well. But at all times the body's undergoing processes that are both actually and the best example is sleep. So sleep is called an amphibolic process because you are both engaging in catabolism as well as, of course, anabolic. Uh, when you talk about, you know restoring and repairing and regenerating with your overnight sleep. So with walking, it is sending signals to the body for anabolic processes because it's minimally destructive, you have minimal impact, trauma and you're getting all these processes working. Where you're getting more blood flowing, oxygen delivery, you're building a brain-derived neurotropic factor to help with neuroplasticity. So all this great stuff is happening with minimal penalty or destruction or breakdown. Now with running overall for most runners, because they are not fit enough to really do the sport in a manner that is minimally stressful and building the aerobic system, they're just breaking down the body over and over with a slightly too stressful pace and also incorrect form. That's resulting in more impact trauma, because what we see this pattern is the over-striding, breaking, jarring heel-striking pattern as seen in 80 to 95% of all recreational runners, according to Dr Daniel Lieberman's research at Harvard percent of all recreational runners, according to dr daniel lieberman's research at harvard. And so the reason that we see so much of this overstriding braking pattern are people that are poorly adapted, have insufficient overall physical competency and musculoskeletal resiliency to run with correct form. Why are they running or how are they able to run?

Brad Kearns: 23:19

It was the invention of the elevated cushion shoe back in the 1970s by Nike. So these shoes came out where you could put on the shoe and shuffle down the street with this heel striking pattern and go and run five miles, whereby, if you didn't have these magical shoes, you'd be traumatized after two minutes or three minutes and your calves and your feet would hurt because of the poor running form. So the shoes enable poorly adapted people to run who should not be running in the first place. Do they cause poor form? Of course not. It's an innate object that sits on a shelf and so what they do is enable poor form.

Brad Kearns: 23:57

What's the cause of poor running form. It's that lack of basic physical fitness. So you have tight hip flexors, you have tight hamstrings, you have dysfunctional glutes because they don't fire, because your form is incorrect. You have poor core strength and poor foundation, so that you have an insufficient forward lean of the trunk, so you're allowed to do this breaking stride. You have poor ankle mobility and all these factors against you because you're not a super fit person and you have a lot of sedentary patterns in life. And then you insist on shuffling down the road at this dangerous sport that is gonna drive chronic overuse injury.

Philip Pape: 24:35

Because it's so easy, right? You just lace up your shoes, no equipment needed, and you just go. Yeah, so I know the shoes in the 70s and I believe there was some book in the 70s too, that I don't know if you know which one it is that led to a huge the fitness revolution, or whatever.

Brad Kearns: 24:49

what came to running this running boom kicked off, and it's important to understand, because there's been so much hype and marketing commentary socializing us to think that running is this end all fitness accomplishment, when in fact it's, you know, mainly catabolic and prompts accumulation of fat rather than reduction of fat and prompts the loss of muscle. And boy, we really got into this mess with profit driven corporate marketing forces with a big interest in it, especially the running shoe advertising Just do it is widely regarded as the greatest advertising campaign of all time, and so, hey, how can you resist? And I want to clarify that, like getting people off the couch in comfortable modern life and out, doing something is a great step forward for mankind, but it's really important to do it correctly, otherwise we can actually be worse off than someone who just engages in a basic level of activity, like tending to their garden and walking down to the post office to mail a letter, and all those quaint memories that we have from a previous time, before the fitness boom kicked into gear.

Philip Pape: 25:58

Yeah, so we addressed some of the reasons why running is not great for fat loss. Not only that it breaks down muscle tissue, but you also compensate for the calorie burn. It also causes overtraining, which means you're not going to be moving as much or you're going to impede recovery. But just to make it super clear for people I know there's this idea running makes you tone, it burns fat. It's just part of that culture. Why is just that not the case? Just so people know. Like the big bullet points behind that.

Brad Kearns: 26:26

Well, it's not a very demanding sport for the overall musculoskeletal system. Right, you're just shuffling down the road. Go look at the elite runners in the Olympics. These guys are super skinny and somewhat emaciated, but they're also ripped and they're fine athletes and they're running at a very, very high speed. So it's sort of like a different deal when you look at a guy who's running a two-hour marathon or running the 10K around the track in 26 minutes. They're extremely highly trained athletes and very fit and have the physique of a champion.

Brad Kearns: 26:59

So the recreational aspect, where people are running very, very slowly. However, they're still stressing their bodies too much with the simple act of running that they're not adapted to do. So it's kind of like pushing yourself to do a bunch of deadlifts, of squats with really crappy form and continuing and insisting to continue and do more and more sets until you're really tired and your form's even worse, and then you get injured and exhausted and reach for the Ben and Jerry's. We wouldn't dream of doing that, that stupid of a workout in the gym, but basically that's what we're seeing every day when people are going for that weekly mileage goal, with that poor form, with that excess impact, trauma and the overeating and the appetite and satiety dysregulation that occurs from overly stressful pattern. And one thing when you listed off those reasons that were criticizing running, we forgot another huge one, which is, if you're devoting all this energy to cardiovascular endurance training at a slightly to significantly too stressful of a pace, guess what you don't have time and energy for anymore. You don't have time to even dabble in weights and go do one set through the machines once a week, or the very bare minimum necessary to maintain functional muscle mass and muscle strength, and forget about probably the greatest return on investment of any workout known to mankind, which is sprinting right. So the brief, explosive, all out sprints are the thing that we lose more quickly with aging than we do the cardiovascular endurance.

Brad Kearns: 28:36

I talked to my mom about this. She's 87. She's in fantastic shape and she walks one to two miles every morning with her dog and she's very proud of it and looks around at people her age who are falling apart and I say, hey, that walk is great, that's a great foundation. Now you need to keep that appointment with the personal trainer at the gym and you need to go put your body under resistance load to maintain that muscle mass. It's absolutely essential and I think you know it's nice to see now with the content you're putting out and many other people like strength training and sprinting are vastly more important than this baseline cardiovascular steady state endurance training Because, as I mentioned, you are getting cardio if you become a competent strength trainer or a sprinter.

Philip Pape: 29:19

Okay. So you opened the door to sprinting because I wasn't even going to go there. I was next going to say okay. So we know pretty much for a fact that you could lose fat, be fit, not have to run ever. Trust me, I know from personal experience and coaching many, many clients who don't want to run and they don't have to run. But sprinting is its own form of running, in its own category, and I will say I love it. I don't do it as often as I used to. Again, in CrossFit, my favorite thing to do was shuttle runs.

Philip Pape: 29:44

I love the ones where the every minute on the minute where you had to do like I don't know, I think it was 10 meters, and then on the second minute you do 10 meters and then 10 meters back and then on the third you add another segment. You see, if you can get up to like 18 was a pretty good. Like you know, I have an ego. I'm satisfying my ego right when you get to like 18, but let's dive into that then, because I don't talk about that enough on the show. I'm not against it. I talk about things like pushing and pulling sleds. We talk about if you need to go on the bike or do some swimming or something that is completely concentric without the eccentric loading. That's cool, you know, for a session here or there, but tell us about sprinting.

Brad Kearns: 30:22

Well, if we had more space on the cover, the book would appropriately be titled Humans Are Born to Walk and Sprint. Okay, and so that is. Our essential genetic expectation for health and survival is that we need to be prepared. In primal times we need to run for our lives or run to get food so we didn't starve, and so that selection pressure, the genetic adaptations occurred where we became great endurance machines, as discussed earlier, and we also became very strong and we became powerful and explosive to deal with a primal hazard. So we want to honor those genetic expectations for health today, and sprinting is a hugely important piece of the puzzle.

Brad Kearns: 31:04

Interestingly, it doesn't take that much time, so it's not a huge ask to have someone sprinkle in some sprinting stimulation into their fitness regimen. And we're talking about when we really use the term sprint properly. We're talking about a brief, explosive, nearly all-out effort, and we know from exercise physiology the human can only deliver a maximum effort for seven seconds. Right, that's what the ATP, creatine, phosphate, the energy inside the cell where you can go full bore, starts to peter out at seven seconds, and so anything over seven seconds is not technically a pure sprint. So when we watch the 100 meters in the Olympics and the guys run 9.79,. They're actually decelerating a bit in the final stages of even the fastest, most explosive event in the Olympics. So that's something to understand when we talk about sprinting. The ideal template for a workout would be to sprint for 10 to 20 seconds. Yes, sprinting for seven seconds is great, but if we get 10 to 20 seconds then we're getting some good fitness stimulation. But we're stopping before we incur too much cellular stress and musculoskeletal trauma and stress hormone production because the workout's too brutal and your tongue's hanging out at the end.

Brad Kearns: 32:20

So a proper sprint workout is not Rocky Balboa puking on the side of the road from going so fast so many times. It's a very crisp, explosive session where you're executing precise technique and you do not degrade over the course of the workout. So, unlike high intensity interval training where you're hanging on and you got two more and you can do it and the group is rallying around you and you high five at the end as you're dripping in a pool of sweat during that spin class where you're asked to go over and over again for 30 second sprints with 30 seconds rest and we're going to go for it, that's one form of training but true, sprinting is an extensive amount of rest in between very brief bursts of all out performance. So I give this recommended template for anyone could be a four to eight sprints lasting between 10 and 20 seconds, with a minimum six to one recovery to work ratio. So if you're sprinting for 10 seconds, you rest for at least a minute before you do another sprint and that gives you this consistent quality of high performance effort with each rep. You only have to do four to eight.

Brad Kearns: 33:32

Oh question, in the back of the class, what if I get really good and fit and I do eight good ones? Then what you're going to do is you're going to go faster. You're not going to go up to 12 someday or 14, or keep adding volume, as we've been socialized to believe inaccurately by fitness programming where it's like more, more, more. With sprinting it's all about quality and extensive rest and, as you read on my bio, now that I'm a master sprinter and having to learn all the attributes of sprinting that weren't familiar to me as a longtime endurance athlete, I'm getting scolded by my advisors because I'm only taking a six to one ratio, which I feel is plenty for me.

Brad Kearns: 34:12

But to do to get fast at 10 second sprints, you might want to rest for two or three or four minutes before you do another one, and that's just a more sophisticated level of sprint training. But for the basic template for everybody is that four to eight sprints, 10 to 20 seconds, six to one ratio, and then you're opening up a whole new world of fitness benefits. Especially, and probably of most interest to people, is the ability to shed excess body fat quickly, especially visceral fat, and there's great research showing that sprinting targets visceral fat reduction in particular, because visceral fat is more metabolically active than subcutaneous fat, so it makes it easier to remove if you send the right genetic signals through things like sprinting or I guess you could arguably throw in fasting and things like that that are trying to rev up the metabolism.

Philip Pape: 35:06

I have to say, brad, you've got the bug in me all right, so I got to do this now Because you're right, the way I used to do it was more of the HIIT style that you're talking about, and I absolutely love this prescription and the caution to only go up in intensity, only go up in speed, as your form of progressive overload for your sprinting is really good, because then people aren't doing oh, now I'm doing 12 of these, now I'm doing 20. Guess what? My Brad Kearns protocol is now an hour long. It doesn't work that way. This is good. I'm going to follow up on this with you later and then this could be a whole separate topic to dive into. All right, cool Sprinting, brad. Good, everybody has that.

Brad Kearns: 35:43

Oh yeah, sprinting is definitely a full show dedicated to that.

Brad Kearns: 35:48

And when we look at these research benefits like brain-derived neurotropic factor and just making you a more confident, resilient person, and also what sprinting does is it reduces perceived exertion at all lower levels of exercise intensity.

Brad Kearns: 36:03

So if you become competent at sprinting, your five mile jog or your hour long group exercise class in the gym, everything feels easier and it literally is easier because, as you know from like central governor theory, your perception of how difficult the workout is is how difficult the workout is.

Brad Kearns: 36:23

And so when we say my quads got really tired on my 12th rep of squats, it's not literally true. The quads don't have feelings and emotions and think they're tired. It's your brain that gets tired because you never worked that top end, and so everything becomes sort of a challenge or grueling or all these sensations where we need to teach the body to perform that brief, explosive, powerful as the essence of anti-aging. So the anti-aging benefits are tremendous and, in contrast to that chronic overproduction of stress hormones that I talk about with an endurance training regimen, what sprinting does is an appropriately brief fight or flight spike of hormones into the bloodstream and then, because the workout is over quickly. You're able to quickly recalibrate back to homeostasis and come back stronger and more resilient, thanks to testosterone and growth hormone coursing through your bloodstream, acting upon target organs, building more muscle, shedding excess body fat and improving the brain's perception of fatigue during exercise.

Philip Pape: 37:29

Yeah, the mind-body thing is really powerful there you mentioned. This reminds me a lot of just the system we use for lifting right, it's the ATP-CP system, and if you look at the physique of sprinters, you know that they're not emaciated like long distance runners.

Brad Kearns: 37:47

Yeah, there's a popular quip when we're doing live lectures and you ask have you ever seen a fat sprinter?

Brad Kearns: 37:55

And the answer is no. There's no such thing, because it's the penalty for carrying excess body fat when you're going at high speed is so severe that the genetic signaling will occur every time you do a sprint workout to shed that excess body fat, to adapt and become stronger for next time. Now, have you ever seen a fat marathon runner? In fact, the research from Cape Town Marathon in South Africa determined that 30% of the participants were over the healthy BMI range. And then we compare contrast to World Health Organization research showing that 30% of the global population, largely in the developed nations, is also outside of healthy BMI range. So when you go to an event and you cannot distinguish between the spectators and the participants, you got a problem with your sport. You go to a powerlifting meet I can see who's competing in the heavyweight division and who's watching, but the marathoning generally does not support any improvement in physique and can actually cause extreme harm with that accumulation of visceral fat and the loss of muscle mass.

Philip Pape: 39:02

Yeah, and I know when I've sprinted and I've asked people to just do it randomly who are lifters, who squat a lot, it's like that base of power goes a long way as well. They're a duo, they're like.

Philip Pape: 39:12

Batman and Robin. There, it's cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool, all right. So on the other side of the spectrum, you posted something on Instagram just recently, a few days ago that said endurance running the way most people do it prompts increased laziness in general life, and I'm very intrigued by that. I want you to tell me more about that one.

Brad Kearns: 39:29

Yeah, it happens both consciously and subconsciously. So when you're proud of yourself for waking up on the cold, snowy morning and running eight miles before most of your neighbors are awake, or they're shuffling out to pick up the newspaper and head back into the warm home, what happens is you give yourself permission, you give yourself a hall pass to be lazier throughout the day. And so when you're asked, hey, do you mind raking the leaves this afternoon? You say I'll do it tomorrow because I ran eight miles this morning and I'm tired and lazy. So, on a conscious level, you give those hall passes for another scoop of ice cream, another serving, another helping at the meal, and runners glow and crow about how they have a free pass to eat more food.

Brad Kearns: 40:20

And you were mentioning the books that helped launch the running boom. One of them was the complete book of running by Jim fix, who famously dropped out of a heart attack at age 51, ignoring all recommendations to get medical checkups, even though he had a family history. And he would write passages like the great thing about running is when the furnace is hot enough, anything will burn. In other words, you don't have to scrutinize your dietary choices because you're burning so many calories. And this became a cultural paradigm in the seventies. And even the leading cardiovascular experts at the time the doctor, said the same thing they thought you would be heart attack proof if you could run a marathon and now're seeing the opposite a rash of heart problems in long-time extreme athletes.

Brad Kearns: 41:01

But back to the permissions where consciously you give yourself those hall passes and then subconsciously the body engages in these energy conserving mechanisms to react to what's perceived as a survival threat and so you need to conserve energy.

Brad Kearns: 41:18

You turn down those other dials, remember they are reproduction repair and growth in favor of excess locomotion. And I think the most extreme example when we talk about reproduction for males that would mean one's libido and for females, reproductive fitness can go awry with these extremely high-performing females when their body fat drops below a threshold and they experience amenorrhea, the loss of menstruation. So whether or not you're interested in family planning and what's happening in the immediate future, our primary biological drive to exist is to reproduce. So when one loses reproductive fitness, this is an extreme indicator that one's stress mechanisms and lifestyle are out of balance. And the elite female athletes deal with that routinely, especially in the sports that demand low body fat. So if you see a female with six pack. She is treading on thin ice, even though she looks great and is getting a lot of followers on her social media posts. Um, the body does not really want to be pushed that hard and you have to make all these concessions for general health.

Brad Kearns: 42:26

Yeah, and one thing I mentioned uh, you know I was. I was pro circuit for nine years, so I traveled around the world. I trained all day. I slept for half of my life during my career as a pro triathlete 12 hours, 10 hours a night and two hour every afternoon. But I also experienced all around five or six colds every year and it was just part of life as a pro triathlete, with all that traveling and all that training. So, hey, that's nine years times, let's say six.

Brad Kearns: 42:58

I had 50 upper respiratory minor infections in my peak years of ages 20 to 30. Kind of ridiculous, when you think about it, that I was bashing my immune system and suppressing it so routinely with all that stress, hormone production. And, on a less extreme example, that's what the recreational enthusiast is dealing with, because they have little kids that they have to get up and deal with school and then they have to go to work and be responsible and rake the leaves and they want to run eight miles in the morning and it's too much. In contrast, that sprint workout that I described fills you with energy and enthusiasm and a level uh appetite and satiety hormone, uh status, so that you go through life eating healthy, nutritious meals and feeling great and having more energy because you work out and train rather than less hey, just wanted to give a shout out to philip.

Jerry: 43:49

I personally worked with philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.

Jerry: 43:57

Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one. He's really taken the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth. If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, philip.

Philip Pape: 45:00

Yeah, again, the parallel with lifting is I was thinking the exact same thing when you talked about running. I used to try to train for half marathon. I never got there. That was many years ago. I hated it, I hated the running. But yeah, you felt like, well, I just did this thing and now I'm exhausted and the rest of the day is done and maybe I'm going to eat more too. But lifting and sprinting give you a different feeling, especially with the cortisol. It helps you manage that and feel like you want to be productive, and there's also the mental resilience you get of overcoming these hard things.

Philip Pape: 45:30

The costs of getting lean are very important. You just mentioned that. We've talked about that as well, and we've talked to bodybuilders about it who are like, look, it's a serious thing, it's an extreme. Like any other sport, you have to be willing to do the trade-offs, like the immune system. People don't think about that. But if you've already got metabolic adaptation happening during fat loss, now you're just going to exacerbate it with all the other stuff happening. So all great stuff. So you mentioned heart health and I think you've talked about something called the Fat Max heart rate. Do I have that right in my notes and people are thinking again running heart health zone two it's all the rage now getting doing zone training. What are your thoughts on that?

Brad Kearns: 46:06

Yeah, that's funny because I was just looking down at my notes is the one thing that's really important to cover, and you mentioned it briefly at the outset. It's sort of like when can you get permission to run and when can it be beneficial? So it's the metabolic and stress impact of one's workout that determines whether it is supportive to long-term fitness improvement as well as longevity, or whether it can set you back. And so there's this important concept called fat max heart rate, and it represents the intensity level at which you are burning the maximum number of fat calories per minute, and that goes with the heart rate. So fat max heart rate is widely regarded as 180 minus.

Brad Kearns: 46:47

Your age is a great way to pretty accurately estimate your fat max. So I'm about to be 60 years old, so I go 180 minus 60. My fat max heart rate, my training heart rate at fat max, is 120. If I were to speed up and raise my heart rate and go faster, of course I'm gonna be burning more calories the faster I go. You burn more calories sprinting than you do when jogging or walking right. But at fat max, what happens if you envision a upside down U-shaped curve is you start burning fewer fat calories per minute in favor of a quick spike in glucose burning as well as a quick spike in ventilation and stress, hormone production and everything. So this cutoff point is so important to recognize because if you go past fat max, the workout now becomes moderately stressful rather than energizing and restorative. So the amount of low intensity movement that one can do there is virtually no ceiling to the benefits you accrue. So if I say, philip, hey, let's take this summer, take a break from podcasting and let's hike the 2,000-mile Appalachian Trail in 90 days, that would by and large be a tremendously healthy way to spend the summer. We're hiking at a comfortable pace, we're outdoors, we're getting sunlight, we're getting de-stressed from mobile technology and taking breaks and having all kinds of great benefits. So there's no upper limit to the benefits of moving more.

Brad Kearns: 48:14

There's research from Cooper Institute about this group called Super Exercisers and they studied these people that reportedly exercise 30 to 35 hours per week for decades. I'm envisioning like someone retired who walks five miles every morning and then walks the dog for another 30 minutes at night. Whoever these people are that can put in that much exercise, but they're super healthy and they have great longevity. Obviously it's not extreme exercise at that level. But the active lifestyle is number one. Then what happens when you exceed fat max heart rate routinely? Then you are getting into these glucose burning workouts that are turning you into a sugar burner and a sugar chomper. You are suppressing immune function in favor of this chronic stress hormone production and all the benefits kind of go out the window when you routinely exceed what is regarded as that cutoff between a stressful workout and a restorative workout.

Brad Kearns: 49:12

You mentioned all the fascination with zone two and it's wonderful to see this popularity now because the upper limit of zone two correlates with that fat max heart rate. But one contention I have with the fitness movement right now is no one's giving enough love to zone one and the amazing cardiovascular benefits you accrue when you're doing very comfortably paced zone one exercise, like getting out of the car, walking across the parking lot, sending text messages between your sets you're still in zone one and you're still getting all kinds of training effect to the fat burning enzymes and energy systems in the body. Here's an important anecdote or a comparison Elouid Kipchoge, the greatest marathon runner of all time, the guy who ran 159 in the marathon and two Olympic gold medals. He performs 83% of his weekly mileage in zone one, not zone two. Of his weekly mileage in zone one, not zone two, zone one, he does around 9% in zone two and 7% at the higher zones where he's really hitting it hard and doing these amazing track workouts. But what he's mostly doing for you and I, the direct comparison would be a medium to brisk walk.

Brad Kearns: 50:25

Now, for him, zone one is eight minute pace per mile at high altitude for an easy 15 mile run. Uh, because he's so physically conditioned. Yeah, and he's running a marathon, by the way, at a pace of four, 34 per mile. So an eight minute mile, even though it's pretty impressive to you and I, is way, way slower 63% slower than his marathon pace. Wait a second. Take the average marathoner and slow down 63%. Guess what you're doing? You're walking and you're training, just like the greatest runner of all time trains. There's the argument to emphasize walking and not worrying about having to shuffle down with this breaking stride because you're not adapted to run correctly anyway.

Philip Pape: 51:08

Yeah, I love it. Two things come to mind there, brad. One is recent research that confirmed again that the volume of movement, no matter the intensity, is pretty much equally effective for heart health. Right, which is what you're kind of saying. Like, you can walk, walk, walk, walk a ton and it's cool, like, and it's great for you. It also makes me think about the mode of movement and training. We've been talking about combining walking with lifting and sprinting. When you lift for 90 minutes like that's typical for me, a 90 minute session and I look at my Apple watch there are moments that I peak into zone two on a heavy deadlift or on, you know if the rest period short or whatever, so you're going to hit zone two and then sprinting, you're going to hit it, of course, maybe even zone three or four, because that's very short, yeah, whatever Zone five.

Philip Pape: 51:52

Zone five, and the percentages you mentioned actually align perfectly with that idea. Not that you have to measure it I don't even care about it, to be honest, and personally I don't know if you do but I just Not at all.

Brad Kearns: 52:03

No, I mean, the reason you need to care about heart rate is if you're at risk of getting into these chronic patterns. So when I was a pro triathlete, I obsessively measured my heart rate at every single workout, making sure that that beeper alarm did not go off, because that is the destruction of a desired effect of the training session and I could not get away with that stuff. And, interestingly, because I was so fit back when I was a young person and racing fast, I would do a lot of my workouts in zone one, just like Kipchoge, because zone two was six minute pace per mile and you can't pound the body with that kind of impact, even though it feels comfortable. And I'm still chit chatting with my training partner the training becomes too stressful and so the fitter you get, the more time you're spending building that aerobic base correctly. But again, we have to realize that the stress is relative, such that our protocol for preparing for our modest endurance goals would be a lot of walking and then an occasional effort where you push your body hard and you have a great effort doing the weekend 10k race or whatever it is, whatever your goals are.

Brad Kearns: 53:09

So I don't want to blanketly trash running.

Brad Kearns: 53:12

It's been a part of my life forever and I've got a lot of great benefits out of it. I have buddies from high school that are still running and enjoying it because they've been fit their whole life and the run is like a brisk walk for most people, but we have to honor that. Fat max heart rate is like a brisk walk for most people, but we have to honor that fat max heart rate. See what that represents for us in our own workout protocol and accordingly proceed at that pace rather than bullheadedly and doggedly assume a running pace because you think that you have to. And also what this means is the duration of the workout has to be at, or below fat max heart rate. So what this means is the duration of the workout has to be at, or below fat max heart rate. Right? So as we get tired as the workout proceeds, we have to slow down, and so you might be able to run one or two miles jogging before that heart watch beeps and then it's going to start beeping the rest of the workout.

Philip Pape: 54:00

Fair point, because the fixed point is that heart rate, which then shifts as you get fatigued.

Brad Kearns: 54:05

Yeah, and what a lot of people do is they say, hey, let's go and keep a nine minute per mile pace for our six mile run. Well, that doesn't make any sense to the body and the brain. The brain knows intensity and the heart knows intensity. So your nine minute pace should be nine nine, nine, 20, nine, 45, 10, 10, 15, whatever, because we're honoring heart rate, not blindly adhering to some pace. The only time that you should do that is in a race where you're trying to run your best time. Of course you want to run the same split per mile. That's how records are set and personal records are set, but training is entirely different than race model for most people two more things I want to cover before I do.

Philip Pape: 54:46

I wanted to say a nerdy thing. When you mentioned the fat max heart rate and you said you know, it's in the shape of and I thought you were going to say parabola, because I'm a math guy and you said upside down you, which is what most people would get.

Brad Kearns: 54:56

You're a good communicator, but like, I think, parabola, that's the word I was looking for. Oh, okay, okay.

Philip Pape: 55:02

But it's okay. You probably don't want to use it in most contexts, as people are like what are you talking about? Um, I was thinking of price optimization from economics, where you have like price economics major.

Brad Kearns: 55:13

So now I'm with you, man. I remember that, the price optimization curve. Yeah, I had a instructor with a british accent. Let's, let's, investigate our price optimization curve. Oh, you can't charge too much and make more money. I see, I see.

Philip Pape: 55:28

Unless you want to preserve your monopoly. It's Microsoft new back when they sold Windows 98. They sold it way cheaper than the price. Max profit maximization to keep the market, you know.

Brad Kearns: 55:37

Wow.

Philip Pape: 55:37

Anyway. So two final things. That one is let's talk about people who do love running or maybe are good at it or want to get good at it and still want to do it, and they're like I hear you, brad, but I still want to run. How do I do it? And then we can conclude with how do people incorporate walking? I think those are two good places to kind of end the.

Brad Kearns: 55:55

Nice. So you want permission to run? That's great. Let's first look at the propensity for an addictive approach. And we have a whole chapter in the book called the Ordeal of the Obligate Runner. And the very definition of addiction is requiring a hit or a dose in order to feel normal. So we think about the addicts on the street. They're drug addicts and they need it. They steal money and they want to go get high. Well, it's not really that they want to get high, that might have been at the start. They need to steal money and go get their drug to feel normal, to get to baseline.

Brad Kearns: 56:30

So if you're listening and you're wondering, am I an addict to exercise? If you feel cranky, irritable and out of sorts, if you miss your workout on a particular day, this is a sign of addiction or an unhealthy obsession with exercise. And that's very easy to drift in that direction, especially as your goals become more refined and sophisticated, as in you get more and more immersed into endurance culture or gym culture or CrossFit culture. So we have to be very careful and realize like and I had to learn this as a high performing athlete to like hey, look in the mirror and what are my goals? My goals are to excel in the races. And what are my goals? My goals are to excel in the races and I'm making a living at this, so it's very important. It's not just a hobby. So I need to take absolute best care of my body. So I had built in guardrails against overtraining, because if I disperse that energy in the workout, it was costing me a chance at winning prize money in the race. So you very quickly become a really, really smart trainer when you get your ass kicked in the race because you came in a little bit tired. So those are nice protocols to have and I'm just honoring that and sharing that with other people that like look, if you're here to do a favor for your health, to promote longevity, to prevent disease and to get the body composition of your dreams, these are all warranting a sensible approach rather than an overly stressful approach. So that permission to run let's really ask what you're all about. And if you want to really enjoy yourself and take care of yourself, you can slow down and it's okay and you're still getting a good workout. But that permission comes from how well you perform at fat max heart rate. Now here's another little side note. If you're not, if you're frustrated that you have to go so slow, you're allowed to do jog walks for the duration of your workout. So you can go and jog for 30 seconds and then walk it off just as your heart rate's about to climb and start beeping and ruining the intended metabolic effects of the workout. You walk for a minute or two or three or four minutes and then do another jog and then walk and then do another jog, so you get some running in. You get that sensation of running. That's great.

Brad Kearns: 58:41

The other side of the coin that you asked was how do we get a more walking-oriented lifestyle?

Brad Kearns: 58:47

I think we have to make a fundamental shift in our mindset and our philosophy to put walking in a different category.

Brad Kearns: 58:56

It's not like a fitness option, it's really like sleep.

Brad Kearns: 59:00

It's a human genetic expectation for health and when we don't move sufficiently during everyday life, we incur all manner of immediate consequences. One of them is a decline in cognitive function the brain research. There's one study from Stanford that I mentioned in the book you experience cognitive decline after 20 minutes of focusing on an intense, peak performance cognitive task. So if you do not take a break every 20 minutes from intense work, a break will be taken for you, and I find, with my tabs open on my browser, I have these high jump videos that I love watching, and I find myself watching them instead of focusing on a book manuscript or a podcast outline because I've been working for too long. Afternoon nap, which I'm a huge fan of, because I know when I come back I'm going to be kicking butt at a different level than if I were just powering through all these natural declines in cognitive function. So that's a big vote there for just sprinkling in short and longer walks throughout the day as a fundamental necessity to be at your best anyway.

Philip Pape: 1:00:06

You're a master at reframing this stuff. I really love this. I'm glad you came on to talk about this because just the way I mean think of walking as sleep Beautiful right Because people are thinking they have to almost force themselves, or it's their training or whatever, and I haven't tried to talk about it in language like walking should just naturally flow from the things you enjoy doing and let's find a way to incorporate into your life anyway.

Brad Kearns: 1:00:30

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 1:00:30

And not think of it as trying to get steps right, Like people just think of it as trying to get steps, even though it's a good way to measure a proxy.

Brad Kearns: 1:00:36

If that works for you, that's great. You know if some accountability is fine. My other favorite example is like having a dog. I'm a big dog lover. My dog of 15 years is gone now. She had a great run but like I didn't think for a second that I wasn't motivated enough or I was too busy to get that dog out twice a day like she deserved.

Brad Kearns: 1:00:57

It's like if you're going to adopt an animal, you have a commitment, a lifelong commitment, to give the animal the life it deserves. So I don't care if it's snowing or too hot or you're too busy. You get the dog out for their daily exercise and to serve something higher than yourself and your own fickle forces of like motivation and willpower. Like you mentioned at the start of the show, that's a no brainer. So I think the dog is in your corner. And how can you turn down? I mean, look the dog in the eye and say sorry, I'm too busy, I got a work deadline. I can't take you out for five minutes, boy, that'd be tough. I can never turn my dog's face down. And then the dog has that amazing circadian programming where, at 5.07, they know it's time to eat and they're like where's my bowl? It's after five, you're late. Oh, I love it, man.

Philip Pape: 1:01:40

Yeah, yeah. We have two little dogs, and one is really good at hopping up on you. She's so little she hops like a foot up under your calf Like it's time to go out, Even if you took her out an hour before. If it's the time, it's time, like it doesn't matter.

Philip Pape: 1:01:54

Oh man, this has been fantastic. So many amazing things here about not only why to do this, but just you know the sprinting and the lifting and the walking and what it means to be a human doing hard things but also doing things that are fulfilling for our lives. Being kind of an athlete of aging is the term I've heard some people use. Is there anything we didn't cover that you think is worthwhile, that you wanted to bring up.

Brad Kearns: 1:02:17

Well, I'm glad we got into sprinting because that's been my obsession of recent years and I think it just feels so good to kind of see yourself as an actual performing athlete, where I think in endurance scene we're just shufflers, heading down the sidewalk and accumulating miles and we're so far from you know, an actual athletic competition type of mentality and even if it's not a big part of your life, I promote, you know, with my whole message and you land on my website and it says pursue peak performance with passion throughout life.

Brad Kearns: 1:02:50

I think we need something to give us an edge and give us a little bit of nervousness and, you know, trepidation that we're putting ourselves out there and we're still competing at something and pursuing goals throughout life. Because what instead we see in culture are dudes watching the NFL for seven hours every weekend and perhaps offering up some stories about how, back in the day, you know, I was supposed to play quarterback for SC but I banged up my shoulder at the summer practice and that was the end of my career. Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever, everyone's got a story and they have their heyday back in their youth and then the rest of the time we just sit around and watch others. I think there's a better way to go through life and to pick something that's scary and challenging, that you have to train for and prepare for, and that will get you out the door. When things are, you know, have a tendency to get comfortable and convenient.

Philip Pape: 1:03:41

So be an athlete, not a shuffler find an edge compete. Pursue your goal always be improving, always be improving. Pick something scary, pick something challenging. Totally on board with that philosophy, my friend.

Brad Kearns: 1:03:57

And where do you want folks to look you up? Well, we talked about Born to Walk and we have a great website called borntowalkbookcom where we have these bonus items. When you place an order at whatever retailer you like, you come back and you can get these great PDF download resources and shopping discounts and all kinds of things. I host the Be Rad podcast. I would love to have you on someday. We can talk more about strength training and that precise approach that you communicate, so maybe that'll be a good place for people to start and bradkearnscom all kinds of fun stuff going on and I'm so glad to connect with you here and great interview. Keep up doing the great work that you're doing.

Philip Pape: 1:04:32

Likewise, Brad BornToWalkBookcom. Get the free bonuses. Definitely get the book, the Be Rad podcast. I'd love to be on it. So thank you for the offer and this is a pleasure. I could talk to you for hours and, honestly, there are other topics like sprinting we could get into in the future, I'm sure.

Brad Kearns: 1:04:46

So thanks again for coming on Brad. Thanks a lot, Philip.

What Is Your Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) Score? (The Bottleneck Effect) | Ep 285

Get 14 days and your first challenge FREE in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) plus the Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) calculator, a custom nutrition plan, monthly challenges, workouts, and coaching through the community. Tap on this special link for an exclusive 40% off rate for podcast listeners

🎓Learn about WWPU here, then use this super secret link for two weeks free and an exclusive 40% off rate

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Want to know if you're actually building muscle or just gaining fat during your bulk? 

Learn about the Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) score and how to use engineering's Bottleneck Effect to optimize your muscle-building system.

Discover how factors like training experience, frame size, and strength ratios influence your muscle-building potential, then learn to identify and fix what's limiting your gains.

Main Takeaways:

• You have a unique muscle-building potential

• Your Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) indicates how well you're gaining muscle vs. fat (how "efficient" you are)

• The 5 key bottlenecks that limit your muscle-building success

• Having a solid system + consistency = sustainable results

Timestamps: 

0:01 - Why we need a better way to measure muscle gains
3:05 - Introducing Muscle Gain Index (MGI) and Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE)
7:31 - Interpreting your MGE score
9:46 - The 5 bottlenecks holding back your gains
19:13 - Using data to validate progress
21:30 - Tips to implement for your next muscle building phase

Get 14 days and your first challenge FREE in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) plus the MGE calculator and a 40% off discount exclusive to podcast listeners

How Efficient Are Your Muscle Gains?

Most lifters track their weight during a bulk, but that number doesn’t tell the full story. Sure, the scale is moving, but how much of that weight is actual muscle, and how much is just fat?

That’s where Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) Score comes in—a system I developed using an engineering concept called the bottleneck effect to measure how efficiently you’re converting your calories into muscle. In this article, we’ll break down how to calculate your true muscle-building efficiency, what factors influence your potential, and how to fix the biggest roadblocks holding back your gains.

Your Body is a “Muscle-Building Factory”

Think of your body as a muscle-building factory. Every factory has:

• A theoretical maximum output (how much muscle it can build under ideal conditions)

• An efficiency rating (how well it actually converts inputs—like food and training—into muscle)

Your Muscle Gain Index (MGI) represents your potential for muscle growth, while your Muscle Gain Efficiency (MGE) tells you how well you’re achieving that potential.

MGE is a score from 0 to 1 that represents the ratio of muscle to total weight gained.

• 0.1–0.3: Poor efficiency (mostly fat gain, minimal muscle)

• 0.4–0.6: Moderate efficiency (balanced muscle and fat gain)

• 0.7+: High efficiency (maximizing muscle gain while minimizing fat)

• >1.0: Recomp territory—building muscle while losing fat

The higher your score, the more efficiently you’re packing on lean mass.

What’s Bottlenecking Your Gains?

If your MGE score is lower than expected, something is slowing down your muscle-building process. Here are the five bottlenecks that could be limiting your gains:

1. Training Bottleneck (Weakness or Poor Program)

• Not following a structured progressive overload program

• Avoiding compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, and presses

• Lifting too light or not training close enough to failure

Fix: Use strength-based programming, track your strength-to-bodyweight ratio, and progressively overload every lift.

2. Nutrition Bottleneck (Inconsistent Eating or Poor Macros)

• Inconsistent calorie intake (some days too high, some too low)

• Not eating enough protein (aim for 0.7–1g per pound of body weight)

• Gaining too fast or too slow, affecting muscle-to-fat ratio

Fix: Plan meals ahead, stay consistent with protein, and aim for controlled weight gain (0.5–1 lb/week).

3. Recovery Bottleneck (Sleep & Stress Issues)

• Poor sleep quality or low energy levels

• Constant fatigue or the need for frequent deloads

• Chronic high stress raising cortisol and slowing muscle growth

Fix: Improve sleep quality, manage stress, and prioritize rest days. If you constantly need deloads, adjust training volume.

4. Body Composition Bottleneck (Starting Too High or Low in Body Fat)

• Too lean: Your body resists gaining muscle to preserve energy

• Too high in body fat: Poor nutrient partitioning, leading to more fat gain

• Hormonal imbalances affecting metabolism and muscle protein synthesis

Fix: Optimize body fat levels before bulking, use phased nutrition strategies, and strength train year-round to maintain a high metabolic rate.

5. System Integration Bottleneck (Lack of Strategy or Tracking)

• No long-term plan for muscle growth

• Not tracking key metrics like weight trends, strength progress, or macros

• Following a randomized approach instead of a structured one

Fix: Use a tracking system, periodize your nutrition and training, and follow a step-by-step approach to muscle gain.

How to Use MGE to Optimize Your Bulk

To maximize your muscle-building efficiency:

1. Track your weight and body fat over the course of your bulk

2. Calculate your MGE score (inside my Physique University calculator)

3. Identify your biggest bottleneck (training, nutrition, recovery, body composition, or strategy)

4. Fix one thing at a time and reassess every 4–6 weeks

The Big Takeaway

Muscle gain isn’t just about eating more—it’s about gaining efficiently. Your MGE score helps you measure progress beyond the scale, ensuring you’re actually building muscle instead of just getting fluffy.

If you’ve ever felt like your gains aren’t what they should be, this is your tool to fix it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's say you've been building muscle, tracking your weight, watching it go up steadily during your bulk and the number on the scale is going up, but it doesn't tell you how much of that gain is actually muscle. What if there was a way to know exactly how efficient your muscle building efforts are? Using an engineering concept called the bottleneck effect, I've created a system that measures your true muscle building potential and efficiency, and today I am introducing how the MGE score muscle gain efficiency can tell you if you're mostly building muscle or just gaining fat. You'll learn the factors that determine your baseline muscle mass potential, how to calculate your efficiency score and, most importantly, how to identify and fix whatever's holding back your gains. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:04

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm introducing a revolutionary way to measure your muscle building success. I want you to think of your body as a muscle building factory. Engineers know that every factory has a theoretical maximum output and actual production efficiency. Your body's no different. There's your potential for muscle growth, which I call the muscle gain index, and then there's how efficiently you're reaching that potential your muscle gain efficiency, both of which are new scores that I've created. They are part of a spreadsheet, a tool where you can plug in some numbers between the beginning and end of your bulk and see how efficient you were at gaining muscle. Now, before we dive into the score and how to use it, if you want to actually access that complete calculator, along with some other evidence-based tracking tools like a body composition tracker and a biofeedback tracker, they're only available in Wits and Weights Physique University. I saved my most juicy choice calculators for that group and all you have to do is join, and I don't know what you're waiting for. It is super affordable and it is extremely valuable. Go to whatsoeightscom slash physique or click the link in my show notes to learn more about the Physique University, where you can take your tracking and results to the next level. This is only for people who are lifters, who are frustrated that they haven't quite gotten the fat loss or muscle gain output that they want, and we help you dial it in. We onboard you, we take you through a step-by-step method and process based on evidence and we tell you exactly how to measure and calculate those things so that you have utmost confidence and no more ambiguity or questions about what your metabolism is doing, how to train, how to eat, and then you can get that result with tons of support and accountability. So if you want to join Wits and Weights Physique University and get access to the exact calculator I'm talking about today, check out the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightcom slash physique.

Philip Pape: 3:05

Now, stick around anyway, because I am going to explain generally how this works and you'll understand what matters. So, whether you have the calculator or not, so that you know how to go into your next muscle building phase and do it efficiently. So I'm going to start by understanding our theoretical maximum output. Right, if we think of the factory analogy here, because this is an engineering episode, what we want to do is avoid bottlenecks. We want to understand the maximum, but then we also want to avoid bottlenecks.

Philip Pape: 3:36

So the theoretical maximum output for you is your muscle gain index, mgi. Muscle gain index, mgi. This actually tells us how much of your lean body mass is likely skeletal muscle mass, based on key factors that influence muscle building potential. Okay, listen to that again. When you gain weight to build muscle, you're going to gain some body fat and you're going to gain some lean mass. What I do with the muscle gain index is tease out how much of that lean mass is likely skeletal muscle mass, so actual muscle mass, because not all of it is muscle. Some of it is bone, fluid, organ, other tissue, and we need to understand how much is muscle.

Philip Pape: 4:16

And the factors that affect your muscle are like, let's say, the specifications of your factory's machines, right? So there's a list of these. First there's whether you're male or female, because that's going to affect your baseline muscle mass potential, not, I repeat, not the rate at which you gain muscle. Ladies, men, it's exactly the same, no matter your sex, no matter your age. What's different is the baseline potential, because men start with a higher baseline, given that they have more muscle mass, but it's only about 2%. Believe it or not, it's only about 2%, so it's actually quite negligible.

Philip Pape: 4:50

Age is the next factor that's going to impact your muscle building capacity, because the older we get and by older I mean over 50, over 60, your muscle building capacity declines just a tad, just a tiny, tiny bit. But guess what? It's always there. You always can build muscle to the day you die, all the way through into your 90s, we've seen, but it does have a small impact less you're stronger and then you might. So there's kind of this counteracting forces going on which leads me to your strength to body weight ratio, and we can measure that through your squat or we can measure it through your deadlift, for example, and that's your current performance. That is also going to affect your muscle gain efficiency. Then we have your frame size, and that can be measured by your wrist. That can tell us do you have a small, medium or large frame? And that also determines how much of that percentage of lean mass is skeletal mass as opposed to maybe just bone right or representing something that is not muscle mass. And then, finally, your current body fat percentage, which influences hormones. It also influences your muscle building efficiency, your muscle building efficiency.

Philip Pape: 6:04

So the muscle gain index that I came up with is a formula that accounts for all of these things. So in the calculator I created, you basically plug those in and it gives you an estimated skeletal muscle mass out of your lean mass and it pushes it up or down depending on all of these factors. So a young male with years of training experience and strong lifts might have very high potential, while someone starting out would have room to grow but the benefit of newbie gains. So it's kind of balanced between all of these. So that's kind of the potential of your body, of your factory, and now we have to measure how efficiently that it's running. And this is your MGE, your muscle gain efficiency. That number tells us how much of your weight change is actually muscle and how efficient it is. So it's roughly a number between zero and one, the way that I came up with it, and this accounts for the changes in your muscle mass, the changes in your total body weight, and whether you're bulking, cutting or recomping as well, because I don't want to ding you if you are cutting and of course you've retained or gained a little muscle mass, even though it's small. The fact that you're cutting means you might have been pretty efficient at cutting, gaining muscle, because you did better than the average, if that makes sense. So I'll give you some real world example, right, or examples for this score, this muscle gain efficiency A score near the bottom, near about 0.1, remember this goes around zero to one.

Philip Pape: 7:31

There are possibilities of going negative and possibilities of going one, but those are very extreme cases. So a score near 0.1 just means a very poor bulk. It means you gained almost all fat. A score in the middle, around 0.5, is hey, this is a pretty good bulk, it's pretty decent bulk. You've balanced your muscle and fat gain. A score above 0.6 shows high efficiency, right, you're actually gaining a lot more muscle than fat. And then, if you're like re-comping, you could see scores over one, which is like the holy grail of gaining muscle while losing fat.

Philip Pape: 8:04

But the asterisk on that, folks, when you think about that, is the quantity of muscle might not be that much. In other words, it's, it's very efficient, but because you're not actually gaining weight, you have to multiply that efficiency by how much weight you're gaining, which is small. It's going to stretch out the duration by months or years to actually gain the same amount of muscle as somebody who's at like a 0.6, but gaining weight faster, if that makes sense, right. So I know it sounds a little bit confusing. If you have the spreadsheet, it makes total sense. It actually calculates it for you and then it says oh, here's your number and here's how efficient it is, and here's what you might do differently next time. Um, but, and the other thing I want to clarify is a 0.5 doesn't mean it's like 50% lean mass, 50% fat. However, it does almost mean you've gained 50% muscle to fat. You get what I'm saying. So it's a little bit of a different way to look at the data that you can't just easily calculate from knowing your body fat.

Philip Pape: 9:03

All right, so when the score is lower than expected, something is bottlenecking your gains, and that is really the point of this episode is not to say, hey, you know, here's a calculator, here's a formula. I'm not even going through the math and, honestly, even if you don't have the spreadsheet, you can still do the right things to have the best success. I just know some people love to have that feedback and that data to really dive in and level up to the next level, and that's what we help people do in our coaching program and in the Physique University. So if that's you listening, you're like, yeah, I need to get to that level. Definitely reach out and join, definitely reach out and join. But if your score is lower, uh, there are five potential bottlenecks.

Philip Pape: 9:46

All right, the first bottleneck is the training bottleneck, and that is where you basically you're weak. You just don't have a high squat to body weight ratio. Something has stalled out, right, you haven't either that or you're a newbie. And again, I want to kind of separate training age, because if you are fairly new to this, you're going to gain muscle fairly quickly, but you still have to be on the right program. You still have to have the right progression, the right amount of volume, incorporating the big systemic, compound movements, proper intensity. All of that is basically going to fix this issue. So if weakness, if a lack of strength, is a thing preventing you from gaining muscle, you are always going to be stalled and you are always going to gain more fat than muscle in the future when you try to gain weight and this could have been your problem most of your life. If you're not training properly, if you just hit the gym randomly, if you just use the machines without regard for progress over time, that's what's going to happen.

Philip Pape: 10:38

Somebody in our Facebook group just posted hey, I want to go into a fat loss phase. I'm not sure how to train and, by the way, for the last two months, even though I'm not in fat loss, I haven't made any progress on my lifts and I said whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, you're not even ready for fat loss. My man, like we. We got to fix that before you do fat loss, before you do a gaining phase, whatever. So that's the training bottleneck that's. That's a big one for a lot of people. And again, in you know, in our coaching, we take you through the steps to find out where's the issue for you. Is it your form? Is it your progression? Are you not understanding how to, like, use micro plates or something to go up at the right level? Um, are you even using the right program, et cetera, right?

Philip Pape: 11:20

The second bottleneck is nutrition. So this is where you have either your weight gain is too rapid or you don't have enough protein, or you're very inconsistent with your eating. You know, inconsistency is the big one here and the fix, of course, is consistency with your protein at that 0.7 to 1 gram per pound, a controlled rate of gain when you're bulking or when you're cutting, of course. But one of the problems people have is they bulk in a very seesaw roller coaster way where they'll eat a lot more food on certain days than other and on the weekly average they're kind of bulking and on certain days they're way overconsking and on certain days they're way over consuming and certain days they're actually under consuming. It just creates chaos to their body. Where you're not efficiently gaining, you're not using meal planning. That's. The fix is to use meal planning, meal prep, always plan ahead and know what you're gonna eat you know, not down to like every single ingredient, but it could just be the general foods or types of foods and making sure to plan ahead.

Philip Pape: 12:20

The third bottleneck is recovery. So poor sleep quality, constant fatigue, no rest days. You know, when I hear someone say I have to have deloads constantly, that's a big red flag. You shouldn't need deloads very much at all, depending on the program, or ever if it's built into the program. And this could definitely be a different issue related to sleep or stress, or the wrong kind of lift for you, or pushing too hard and trying to overreach or you're not taking enough rest, and so obviously the fix here is that consistent sleep, bedtime, wake time, consistent amount of sleep that you need. Maybe it's seven, maybe it's eight hours, you know, maybe it's six and a half. Having deloads, yes, if you need them. I talked about this in episode I think it was 282, about the only strength standard you need. We talked about progressive overload and I briefly discussed deloads in there about how, ideally, if you structure your program the right way, you hardly ever need them, and then, of course, managing your stress, whether that's managing your perceived stress, having stress coping mechanisms, tracking the data associated with stress, like HRV, and focusing on sleep to improve your stress, and so on. Right, so that's the recovery bottleneck that's going to hold you back from building meaningful muscle. Yes, even when you're gaining and eating a lot of food, improper recovery could happen, because now you're able to train much harder, but you're also able to push past the limit much more easily. Much harder, but you're also able to push past the limit much more easily.

Philip Pape: 13:39

Bottleneck number four out of our five bottlenecks is the body composition bottleneck, where, if your body fat is too high or too low, or you have poor nutrient partitioning, or you have hormonal issues, things like that, there could be a lot of different causes depending on the person, and so that's why I lumped it kind of into its own category. It could it could have to be with the fact that you are not optimizing the body fat range to be in for you. Like some people say well, I have to get down to X percent body fat and I want to live there. Well, for you that might be way too shredded and unhealthy. For another person, it might be perfectly normal. So we have to have realistic expectations.

Philip Pape: 14:18

Also, phasing, periodizing your approach I mean that is the bread and butter of what we do in our coaching is we develop periods and phases for you. I mean, when I give you your nutrition plan when you join Physique University, one of the main features in there is explaining what to do over each various range of weeks, like weeks one through four. You're going to do this, weeks five through 12, you're going to do this and we phase the approach to kind of ease you in properly. So you're doing the right things and developing the right habits and it also works really well with your body, your hormones, your body composition. And the last thing as part of this bottleneck is addressing hormone health. And I do love to address hormone health with lifestyle, which means strength training, lots of walking, managing stress and eating plenty of food, first to see what gets normalized, before you then say, well, okay, I still have certain hormones that are far out of whack. I need HRT or some sort of treatment. So that's the body composition bottleneck.

Philip Pape: 15:11

And, by the way, ladies who are in peri and post-menopause, body composition is going to get worse if you're not lifting weights and it's the main reason your metabolism drops during that time of life, because your muscle mass drops, your fat goes up, even if you maintain the same scale weight, and then it does a number with your hormones and everything just cascades. You know, thyroid, cortisol, insulin it all cascades and a lot of times all you've got to do is take off some of that stress and start lifting weights. Really, that's sometimes what the main fix is. The last bottleneck is the system integration bottleneck. This is about your overall system.

Philip Pape: 15:48

We talk about system engineering and physique engineering and that is your goals, your approach, your consistency. You know if your goal is mismatched to what you're doing, or you're trying to go too quickly for the quick fix, or the approach you're trying to take doesn't quite jive with the evidence or your body, or you're not consistent, those are all gonna be bottlenecks to gaining muscle. And the fix is gonna be having all of these aligned with you, with your lifestyle, with your body, with your needs, with your preferences, focusing on one phase at a time, one goal at a time and, of course, tracking and measuring everything that matters. Tracking and measuring everything that matters and I could have put this at the top of the list everyone because 90% of the time, when someone reaches out, they're new to the community, they're new to the podcast and they say I'm struggling with X, maybe X is binging on the weekends, maybe it's, you know, with their lifting. I say, are you tracking? And they're like, oh no, I'm not tracking. What should I track? Right, if they're open to it. I hope you're open to it and then I'll give some free resources on how to do that.

Philip Pape: 16:51

One of the best resources is my Nutrition 101 guide. If you're looking for something free, go. If you're looking for something free, go to whatsoeightscom, slash free and you can find that it actually tells you how to set up your calories and macros, the correct way dynamically to work with your body, and then how to do it for the different phases. So all of these things, these system things I know it sounds complicated if you're new to this or if this is the first episode you've ever heard of my podcast, but it really does put you in a situation where it's sustainable rather than a quick fix, where it's part of your life, where you don't have to cut out all carbs or all plants or whatever extreme diet and you can just focus, actually have the confidence, actually make the progress. Everything is aligned and part of why you're able to be successful is because you know what the heck is going on and you know what's going in your mouth and you know what your squat was two weeks ago, right, and you're tracking and measuring the right things, all right.

Philip Pape: 17:43

So that's kind of the meat of this episode was what the bottlenecks might be that would prevent your muscle gain efficiency from being higher than it could be. And for most people that means if it's like, as in the 0.2, 0.3 range, we can get it up into the 0.5 to 0.7 range and you're golden, like getting it to 0.8, 0.9,. That's usually not realistic for most people, it's just it's kind of the extremes of the range. So, to use this score, if you have our calculator, if you're in Physique University and you actually have the calculator, the way it would work is you would enter your numbers from before and after, right, or you can do it in the middle of a bulk to see how efficient it is going, because a bulk is usually six, nine, 12 months anyway. So if you're three months in, you can calculate how efficient you are. So you're going to calculate your muscle gain index, that's, your skeletal muscle mass that you're possibly gaining. That's your potential. Then you're going to see how efficient your muscle gain efficiency is and then you can use that to reverse, engineer what your bottleneck is and fix one thing at a time and reassess every four to six weeks and you're golden. That's how we do. That's how we do it. It's continuous improvement and feedback.

Philip Pape: 18:49

So what's really fascinating? When it comes down to cause, I'm so nerdy and data centric. I love my Excel spreadsheets and, by the way, this is an Excel spreadsheet and even if you're not in quote unquote into that stuff, having these different angles of data can reveal patterns that are just not visible with the stuff everybody uses. Like they're not going to be visible. If you just take your scale weight right.

Philip Pape: 19:13

If I have a client who's frustrated because their gains are quote unquote slow but their MGE score shows that they're actually building very efficiently, let's say at a 0.6, well above average. And we look at all the data, how it correlates, and we're like, actually you're doing a fantastic job. It's just you don't quite have the patience. Yet this is the first time you've gone through it. Your expectations are skewed by social media. But understanding your true efficiency, then it. Then it changes their perspective and it changes their motivation. In fact, I just had a client. We just ended our six month um contract together, um, you know, and we're parting ways amicably, like I do with many clients who they learn what they need to learn. They're they're good to go and they they're, you know, happy to tell others about me and move on, and that's what I love to see.

Philip Pape: 20:00

You fire me as a coach and she, along the way, she always had a little bit of frustration where it seemed like things weren't quite moving. And at the end of it all, we crunched the numbers and we said, wow, you dropped 9% body fat and, by the way, she only weighed like 120 pounds when we started. So she was already pretty light and lean like 120 pounds when we started. So she was already pretty light and lean. She's shorter, she's a leaner frame and we had to take it very reasonably during the fat loss, so she wasn't down at 800 calories and at the end of the day over you know a three, four month fat loss phase, pretty typical she lost 9% of her body fat and, what's interesting, it wasn't just fat loss. She actually gained, I think, three and a half or four pounds of muscle as part of it. So her scale weight didn't drop as much as she expected when we started, but she was actually happier with the results because she was leaner than when we started, like quite a bit, and so all of this stuff is super fascinating.

Philip Pape: 20:54

It's why I love frameworks and the engineering side of it all. It strips away the emotion. It gives us concrete data to work with. Your body is so sophisticated it's the most sophisticated factory that you'll ever operate and it deserves this level of analysis, at least initially, so that you can know what the heck is going on if you're struggling right. It's not necessarily a long-term thing, although many of us get the bug and we always want to have our numbers and things like that. It's really about becoming more in tune with yourself, whether it's through numbers or through journaling or through whatever method of tracking makes sense for you, but it's doing something to get that feedback All right.

Philip Pape: 21:30

So, as we wrap up, remember you have a muscle building potential and there's a certain efficiency you can go at to reach that potential, and bottlenecks are what limit your efficiency.

Philip Pape: 21:40

So, understanding the five bottlenecks, you can then focus on one of them at a time and slowly crack the armor holding you back from building as much muscle as you want to build. If you want to calculate your own MGA score, if you love data, like me, if you're nerdy about this, if you really want to level it up, take it to the next level. This, if you really want to level it up, take it to the next level. If you want to access our complete suite of tracking tools and, more importantly, the accountability support strategy to actually get the result you want for fat loss and building muscle, join Wits and Weights Physique University today. Head to witsandweightscom, slash physique or click the link in the show notes to learn more about WWPU and start optimizing your gains. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, in the factory of your physique, removing those bottlenecks will help your gains soar. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

My Hardest Bulk Ever (The Hidden "Energy Drain" When Your Metabolism Fights Back) | Ep 284

Get your free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint at witsandweights.com/muscle to optimize your nutrition for maximum muscle growth while minimizing fat gain.

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Learn how your metabolism can fight back during an aggressive muscle-building phase by dramatically increasing energy expenditure, even when you're doing everything right. 

Discover the hidden factors driving this metabolic adaptation and how to overcome them.

Main Takeaways:

• Your maintenance calories can increase significantly during a bulk due to metabolic adaptation (400+ calories)

• High-quality muscle gains are still possible even when facing metabolic resistance

• The 3 key factors that drive increased energy expenditure during a building phase

• How to successfully break through a hardgaining plateau

Episode Resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS

• Download my Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint

Timestamps:

0:00 - The unexpected metabolic challenge
3:10 - Real data from my current bulk
8:33 - The hidden energy drain revealed
14:50 - 3 factors driving metabolic adaptation
16:48 - Strategic approach to overcoming plateaus
21:27 - Being realistic about timelines and goals
23:19 - Key lessons and broader applications

When Your Bulk Hits a Wall (How to Overcome Metabolic Adaptation)

Bulking should be simple, right?

Eat more, train hard, and watch the muscle pile on.

But what happens when your body seems to fight back, burning through your surplus like a furnace and refusing to let the scale budge? That’s exactly what I ran into during my latest bulk, and if you’ve ever stalled while trying to gain size, this one’s for you.

Why Metabolic Adaptation Isn't Just a Fat Loss Problem

We talk about metabolic adaptation all the time when it comes to fat loss. Your body gets efficient, burns fewer calories, and makes it harder to drop weight. But the same thing happens in reverse when you’re gaining—just with a different set of challenges.

Instead of holding onto energy, your body ramps up its calorie burn to keep weight gain in check. Here’s how it happens:

• Increased NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis) – More movement, fidgeting, pacing, and subtle activity burns extra calories without you realizing it.

• Higher Training Demand – As you get stronger and lift heavier weights, your energy output climbs, especially if you’re running a high-volume program like I am.

• Metabolic Inefficiency – The more food you eat, the harder your body has to work to digest and process it, leading to an increase in calorie burn.

My Bulk Was Textbook… Until It Wasn’t

I started my bulk in late October, aiming for 1 pound of weight gain per week. Everything was on track—strength was up, muscle was growing, and my body fat stayed in check.

Then, around mid-January, the scale stopped moving. Despite eating in a consistent surplus, I hit a wall. And it wasn’t just daily fluctuations—my trend weight refused to climb, meaning my body had found a way to burn through the extra energy I was throwing at it.

My estimated maintenance calories jumped from 2,550 in early December to over 3,000 by February—a massive increase in energy expenditure. And despite pushing food intake higher, my metabolism adapted to keep me in check.

How to Overcome a Bulk Plateau

If you’re running into this same issue, here’s what you need to do:

1. Dominate Your Calories

• Eat early and often—front-load your meals to stay ahead of your burn rate.

• Focus on calorie-dense foods like whole milk, fattier cuts of meat, olive oil, and nut butters.

• Use liquid calories—shakes, smoothies, or even whole milk can make hitting your target easier.

• Add extra snacks with minimal fullness impact, like dried fruit, granola, and dark chocolate.

2. Track Your Trends and Adjust

• Don’t just look at daily weigh-ins—track your trend weight over weeks.

• Increase calories proactively, not reactively. When weight gain slows, add 100-300 calories immediately before you fall behind.

• If eating more becomes unbearable, dial back activity (lower step count, adjust training volume).

3. Reframe the Challenge

• A fast metabolism isn’t a bad thing—it’s a sign you’ve built muscle and increased metabolic capacity.

• Focus on performance. If strength is climbing and body composition looks solid, don’t stress over a short-term stall.

• Keep your bulk timeline flexible—if you don’t hit your exact weight goal by a set date, it’s not the end of the world.

My Final Thoughts

Bulking isn’t just about shoveling in more food. Your metabolism adapts to fight back, sometimes in ways that make progress frustrating. But if you recognize the signs early and adjust accordingly, you can push through and keep growing.

This isn’t a failure—it’s proof that your body is adapting, and that’s a good thing. Keep eating, keep training, and keep pushing forward.

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment:
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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

Everyone talks about metabolic adaptation during fat loss, but no one warns you about what happens during an aggressive bulk. Here's what's happening right now Despite eating in a clear surplus and hitting PRs in the gym, my metabolism has cranked up to burn through everything I throw at it, my maintenance calories have shot up multiple hundreds of calories in just a few months, and today we're uncovering the hidden ways your body fights back during a muscle building phase and why, even when you're doing everything right getting stronger, building muscle, eating more than ever the scale can suddenly stop moving If you're trying to gain some muscle or push past a plateau in a bulk. You're going to learn exactly how to identify and overcome these metabolic roadblocks. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Hape, and today we're examining a fascinating phenomenon that is happening right now in my current bulk and I just had to press record and talk to you about it I am at least 14, let's see as I record this 15 or 16 weeks into what started as a textbook gaining phase, the strength gains have been very consistent, doing great in the gym, about to hit new PRs, the muscle gains are there, based on all of my measurements, but my body has thrown me a metabolic curve ball that I guess I didn't quite see coming. I've had situations in the past where I hit plateaus and hard gaining phases, but this one was quite persistent and I didn't wanna just record another podcast about eating more food. I think I wanted to explain the complex ways that your metabolism adapts during a bulk, because we talk about metabolic adaptation during fat loss all the time, but there's this reversed way that that happens during a bulk for different reasons and in different ways. That I think is important to understand, and these adaptations can sometimes derail your progress because they put you into what looks like a plateau and it could last for a long time if you don't know what to look for and what to do.

Philip Pape: 2:14

Now, before we dive in, I have created something for those of you wanting to maximize your muscle building results. It's one of my most popular downloads. It's called the Mus building nutrition blueprint. It lays out the exact steps to optimize nutrition, training and recovery for maximizing your gains while minimizing fat, and I keep it updated with the latest evidence. For example, what are the optimal rates of gain? If you want to understand a little bit of the science behind effective bulking, if you want to avoid some of the common pitfalls and if you want to see an entire appendix of how a real bulk was actually done successfully, with all the numbers, download your free copy at witsandweightscom slash muscle or click the link in the show notes for your free muscle building nutrition blueprint Again witsandweightscom slash muscle, or you could always click the link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 3:10

So I want to start with some real experience, some real data, and share that with you. Because the numbers I'm a big numbers guy. I'm always tracking as much as I need to to measure progress, and they always tell you a story about what's happening, and in this case it's a story about how our bodies adapt during what I'll call an aggressive bulk. I started this gaining phase back on my birthday, october 26th, and I weighed about 175 pounds on the scale. I'm 5'9", I'm 44 years old Actually, I turned 44 on that day, obviously and the first 11 weeks or so went pretty much according to plan or maybe not 11, maybe 9 or 10 weeks. I went from 175 to about 189 by mid-January, and so I gained about exactly a pound per week. Exactly what I was going for right at the upper end of the new sweet spot and I say new because I used to be more conservative. Now I push things a little more aggressively for me and my clients, knowing that the science says it and reality says it, we could actually go at a decent clip to support real growth of muscle but avoid adding excessive fat. But only if you're precise about it and you're tracking your numbers. That's the key. And if you just kind of wing it and lag behind what's actually happening, it's not going to work as effectively. And so I would say the quality of my gains has been pretty solid this time around even more so than last time Based on body fat calculations using the Navy formula.

Philip Pape: 4:32

It's very simple For men that's just your neck and your waist, for women it's neck, waist and hips. Plug it into a calculator online. I actually have one in my website too, witsandweightscom, and the trend is what matters, not the actual numbers but the trend. And if you go by that, I've added about nine pounds of lean body mass, which is about 58% of my total weight gain as lean tissue, which, for being an intermediate maybe advanced trainee, I guess I'll go with intermediate it's a pretty good ratio right. Most would consider that pretty optimal. If you're more on the beginner side, you would expect to gain a little more, Keeping in mind that that 58 or that 60% lean mass it's not all muscle. There's a small percentage of that that is going to be fluid. That will come off later on when I do a fat loss phase, but a lot of it is muscle. So I'm happy with that and my measurements confirm this efficient gain.

Philip Pape: 5:22

My chest has gone up by about an inch and a half Um, and I'm not very good at developing my chest, I'll be honest. I'm more of a back guy, arm guy. Um, chest and legs are where I struggle and you don't have to work a little bit harder. My biceps have grown by half an inch. Thighs have added about one and a half inches.

Philip Pape: 5:37

You know some of you may say, oh, that's not a big deal. Others may say, oh, that's great. Keeping in mind I've been running primarily a strength-based program to build my peak, not a hypertrophy program. So I'm not really trying to add visible mass, especially pumping it up with fluid. I'm really looking to push. My lifts and my singles are going to be tested in a few weeks and I'm very confident that I'm going to hit new PRs based on my progress so far.

Philip Pape: 6:03

My waist has only gone up an inch and a half at most, so that tells you. I'm also having minimal fat gain around my midsection and I can see it in the mirror. This is the first bulk I've ever done this aggressively where I don't see a lot of fluff, which is pretty cool. It's kind of a validating thing where the more you do this and the more muscle you have, the less you have to be concerned about the fat that you add during a bulk. Okay, so that's the setup, but then something interesting happened because, despite continuing to eat in a surplus in the proper aggressive surplus I'm tracking with Macrofactor. By the way, guys, if you don't use Macrofactor, it's the only app that exists that can actually calculate your dynamic metabolism based on what you eat and what you weigh exists that can actually calculate your dynamic metabolism based on what you eat and what you weigh, and then it adjusts the gain or the surplus based on your true rate of gain, which is important in a surplus, because muscle and fat have different densities and everyone gains different ratio of muscle to fat, and so an app that can do that is incredible.

Philip Pape: 6:59

Of course, I'm an affiliate, so full disclosure. You can support me using my code wits and weights, all one word macro factor, downloaded from the app store. Anyway, I use it myself and despite consistently getting stronger in the gym and eating in, this surplus was a decent surplus my weight started to plateau, and by weight I don't mean my scale weight, I mean my trend weight. My scale weight always fluctuates, but you can tell when it's starting to fluctuate and it's like up down, up down within the same range for a while. That's telling you there's a plateau. And we're talking about this happening for almost a month now, and I know what to do during a plateau.

Philip Pape: 7:34

I eat more food. I get ahead of it. I always advise my clients when I see this we just need to get ahead of it. A hundred calories, 200, sometimes 300 calories, because your expenditure is starting to skyrocket, your metabolism is going up, and that's what I started to do. I just started to eat a heck of a lot more food, and part of the challenge there is I eat a lot of whole foods. So unless I add a ton more junk food or processed food, it's a challenge, right, but I'm not complaining about that I know to do that I can make it happen.

Philip Pape: 8:02

Now, the 189,. We're still not near my target of 195 to 200, which I had almost planned to reach by now before I transitioned to the maintenance phase, and so that's why I wanted to make this episode for any of you struggling with gaining right now. So here's where the story gets fascinating. Now I want to talk about this hidden energy drain that I teased you about in the podcast title. So I've been using Macrofactor tracking my nutrition and my expenditure throughout this bulk. The app calculates your expenditure based on your actual intake and your weight trend.

Philip Pape: 8:33

As I mentioned, you know one of the most powerful ways that we have to understand metabolism in real time, short of getting measured with a mask and or doubly labeled water or something crazy like that in a lab. So my expenditure started at 2,640, so 2,640 calories in October, and you might say, oh, that doesn't sound that high. But look, this was after a long cut, so it had come down, and then, after a little bit of a roller coaster, it actually dropped up, went up and went down to about 2,550 in early December which, by the way, that can happen. So don't get worried if your expenditure drops at the beginning of a bulk, um, that's normal. Your body's becoming more efficient, some other stuff is happening. But then the wild, uh, rocket launch occurred.

Philip Pape: 9:17

Okay, my expenditure started climbing steadily, week after week, until it hit nearly 3000 calories, and that's about a 400 calorie increase in maintenance, um, in a very short period, very, very quickly. And oh, and, that's, that's a net, by the way. So that's, it's more like 450, and it's actually above 3000 now. So we're pushing a 500 calorie change. So think about that for a second. My body's now burning extra four or 500 calories every single day compared to when I started the bulk. Even when I intentionally overeat by two to 400 calories above my target surplus, my body finds a way to burn through it all. The metabolism is incredibly adaptive and right now mine is working overtime. Right it's it's almost to my detriment.

Philip Pape: 10:00

And then what makes this more interesting is my diet quality is solid. Is it better than ever? I think it's pretty steady state, like generally. I, you know, I want to be a good example for my clients. I eat 80, 90% whole foods, a lot of fruits and vegetables, a lot of whole food based grains and, of course, lots of meat and dairy and fiber. I try to get you know at least 30 grams of fiber a day and this is fantastic for health, for digestion, for metabolic health, for hormones all that and even for your hunger signals to an extent. But it actually then creates another interesting challenge for gaining weight, in that they're nutrient-dense foods, so they're also higher volume foods and they're more filling. They have a higher thermic effect, so you're burning even more calories and sometimes it makes it hard to reach the high calorie targets. Now, like I said, that's not the fundamental issue that I'm having. I'm willing to make that trade-off right For long-term health and performance, because I'm trying to push.

Philip Pape: 10:56

But what I wanted to talk about is what's causing this, what I'll call energy drain. It's weird I know it's a weird phrase, but kind of, the way I see it is, the opposite thing happens in fat loss, where your body's clamping down. It's getting super efficient, it's trying to conserve energy and you don't want it to do that. You want it to burn calories. But in the bulk it's almost like an energy drain, like a leak, like your body is just burning so many calories. It almost seems impossible. So I want to explain that. The first thing that comes to mind is your training expenditure, and what I mean by that is we don't often give enough credit to the fact that the way we train burns calories, because even I often talk about the fact that that is not why we exercise right, we don't exercise to burn calories, but it does burn calories.

Philip Pape: 11:43

Now I've been running. Shout out to Alex Bromley Okay, look him up on YouTube. Really smart guy, uh, and I think he was just on Dave Tate's um table talk as well. I'm running his bull mastiff program which, by the way, I think you could still get it for free in boost camp. If you download boost camp, it's a really good workout logger app. I use it. Use my link in the show notes. I get a little bit of a bonus for affiliate bonus. It's very small, but just if you're looking to support me. But you can get Bull Mastiff and run it yourself.

Philip Pape: 12:12

Now this is a I'll call it a high load, but also high volume strength building and then peaking program, meaning for about nine weeks you do three waves of ever-increasing volume, that reset for each wave and you're doing a lot of volume, more volume than I've ever done, maybe double. Then you switch to a peaking phase where you reduce the volume but you start increasing the load. You get up into fours and then triples and then doubles. Now I'm finally in singles phase, which is going to lead to testing my one rep max for my squat, deadlift and so on. And while you're doing this kind of training, especially the high volume training that I was doing even though each rep might be more efficient as you get stronger, your body's using less energy for the same movement, because my movement patterns are being executed so frequently. I feel like there is a sense of efficiency there and then I'm able to push even harder. And now the increased volume and intensity. You multiply those together, you get higher energy demand. So while the efficiency might save a little bit, the volume more than makes up for it, especially the program I've been running. Again, I've never run this high of a volume program before. I suspect that's part of it. Now it's been at least six weeks since I was at level of volume. It's been way less volume and it's still going up. So you know it could be a cascade effect or just like kind of a runaway effect going on. So as you get stronger, as you're handling heavier weights during a bulk, even if you're doing fewer reps, your total tonnage, your work capacity tends to increase. You're able to push harder, push to that more effect, your effective reps get to a higher load, et cetera. All of that burns a ton more calories and then it has that afterburner effect and so on. So I think that's part of it. I think that's part of it. Just keep that in mind.

Philip Pape: 13:53

The second factor is NEAT, right, non-exercise activity thermogenesis. You heard me talk about this. This is everything you do outside the gym. Primarily you're walking. This is everything you do outside the gym primarily you're walking, but also you're fidgeting, unconscious movement, and it increases even if your step count doesn't change. Your knee might increase, sometimes dramatically, when you're in a surplus because you've got all this extra energy now almost nervous energy, you might call it. Your body unconsciously moves more throughout the day. You fidget more, you tap your feet, maybe you shake around a little bit more. Um, I stand working up most of the time and I catch myself. You know, shifting around you might take more steps, you might pace more when you're pacing, you know, you just might pace more and all these small movements add up to hundreds of extra calories burned without you realizing it. So that's my second theory here of supported by the evidence, is that your neat is unconsciously going up, even if your step count doesn't necessarily go up because of all these other unconscious movements.

Philip Pape: 14:50

The third factor is broader metabolic adaptation concept We've talked about a lot, especially during fat loss. You know, just like your body fights to preserve energy during a cut, it can fight to prevent excessive weight gain during a bulk by ramping up various metabolic processes in your body, like increased body temperature. You get a lot hotter, trust me, during winter now it's like the gap is even wider between what my wife thinks is cold and what I think is cold. You get higher energy expenditure during digestion. You're just eating a heck of a lot more food and digesting it a lot more frequently. Subtle changes in your hormone levels right, your body's like, yeah, you've got, you're flooding me with energy, there's no need to conserve anything here, wrap it all up, which is a great place to be energy wise. But then you become just less and less efficient with calories. You're just wasting calories left and right and your body's just burning the heck out of them. So those are the three factors I believe are important behind why you might have this runaway effect with your expenditure.

Philip Pape: 15:52

So understanding these adaptations has led me to think about how are we strategic with this? If you're dealing with this, what do I do for this? And three specific things came to mind. Yeah, I'm just going to, I'm just going to jump into them and you're basically balancing the fact that you have this short-term goal of, like, eating a ton of food and keeping up and continuing to build. I will say the one caveat before I get into any of these is I noticed that even though I have quote unquote maintained the fact that I've been eating more and more food has, ironically, still given me the feeling and performance of being in a surplus energy state. So it's not like I've fallen behind, because that's another issue people face is they actually start losing weight in this situation? But I've at least kept up with it and it's been more than enough, with a little bit of extra fat I have as well, to not make me feel like it's a problem, which I guess is a cool thing, right?

Philip Pape: 16:48

So the first thing I like to do as a strategy is what I call caloric dominance. Like, you've got to dominate those calories, and that means not just eating more, right, that's the simple thing. Okay, I need more food, great. But eating smarter, like front loading your calories in the day and around your training sessions, like just you've got to get ahead of it and be smart and realize that if you don't, it's going to catch up to you by later in the day. It's a little bit of a job. It's a little bit of a job to do. You got to understand that there's a trade off, there's a sacrifice, and that you have to be paying attention. And on top of this stuff, you've got to be strategic and plan ahead. Plan ahead, just like in fat loss, you want to plan ahead Same thing here to get all the calories in and eat around your training. Eat a ton around your training when your body is primed to use them, not like right before you train, where it's going to give you digestive issues, but around the training, strategically.

Philip Pape: 17:45

Add liquid calories. Whole milk is awesome If you can tolerate dairy. Whole milk is awesome If you can tolerate dairy, excuse me. Whole milk is fantastic. It's for the price and the macros and the calories and everything. It's a wonderful food. Of course, you know protein shakes, adding higher calorie ingredients, processing things, nuking, not nuking things. What am I trying to say, blending things together into smoothies and stuff, can definitely help. That's more of just a general strategy to get it in.

Philip Pape: 18:09

But high meal frequency, calorie dominance, starting early, getting around your workouts, calorie-dense foods that don't kill your appetite but still maintain that base of nutrient-dense whole foods. So, adding in extra olive oil to your meals, choosing fattier cuts of meat oh, extra olive oil to your meals. Choosing fattier cuts of meat oh ribeye this is the time to go to town on ribeyes. Man, that marbled fat there is like nature's butter. Well, butter is from nature, but you know what I mean? It's like the steaks built in butter, having lots of nuts and nut butters as snacks. You know it's great and the key here is to to keep it consistent. Like having regular meal timing.

Philip Pape: 18:51

While you're scaling everything up because you don't want to make, you don't want to get in a situation when you're just trying to catch up and you're stuffing yourself. That is not fun. Or you're like I'm gonna go Like uh gorge on rice crispy streets and pop tarts because I just need the calories. That is not a sustainable situation you want to be in. So again, think of things like dried fruit, granola, like homemade or even packaged granola. They tend to be calorie dense as well, without giving you excessive fullness. So that's calorie dominance.

Philip Pape: 19:20

The second thing here second strategy, is about mindset. It's about maintaining perspective and resilience. So, instead of just getting frustrated by the plateau, which you know, after a week I'm like, okay, it's not moving, what do I do, right? I use this opportunity to learn about my body's response, and it might be different every time you do a bulk Like. For me, this is a unique situation for the first time because it's it's persistent, but it also maybe tells me some good things that my body is really growing and really taking advantage of this caloric environment.

Philip Pape: 19:53

So your data, whatever data you have, like the data for macro factor, for example it's not just numbers sitting there, it's the feedback you need to close the loop right. The control system. It helps me understand how my metabolism adapts to different situations. This is why I like people to keep tracking, even when they're sick or even when they have a surgery or whatever, assuming the tracking itself isn't stressful in those situations. It helps you understand how your body reacts to those, and then that knowledge is super invaluable for future gaining phases or whatever situation and, of course, for me, helping others through similar challenges. It's amazing.

Philip Pape: 20:29

So when you're facing a plateau, it's easy to get caught up in the numbers and just lose sight of the bigger picture. And remember that your scale weight, your trend weight, is just one metric. I mentioned this already. My performance is really strong. My energy is really high. The quality of my training not only hasn't it suffered, it's continuing to increase, and through this I've been dealing with some of my legacy shoulder issues, having nothing to do with my bulk or anything else, and those gave me little setbacks along the way. But the fact that I'm so well fed has actually been helpful. So sometimes the best response to a plateau any plateau is step back, appreciate the progress you've already made, appreciate all the wonderful victories you're getting right now despite the plateau, and, of course, stay patient with the process, because it's data telling you that something might have to change. You learn from it and you grow and you continue. That's what I have to say about that. All right.

Philip Pape: 21:27

The third strategy is I guess it's also mindset, but it's really being realistic about the timelines and the goals, because that can frustrate the heck out of you, like like it could have done to me when I said I needed to be, by one at one, 95 by this date, cause I'm going to be doing a cut like four weeks after that. No-transcript will end naturally at that point. And you know what? That's perfectly fine. Not only that, what are the advantages of that? All right, maybe one advantage is I won't be as heavy as expected, so the cut is gonna be easier to get to my target weight. Great, that's a great way to reframe it.

Philip Pape: 22:25

When I look at the bigger picture, I'm in a great place. I've gained quality mass, my performance is solid, I'm maintaining better nutritional habits than ever before, even in a gain, and the fact that my maintenance calories have increased so dramatically is actually a sign of improved metabolic capacity. Sometimes our bodies have different plans than what is up here in our brains, and learning to work with that because that's reality, that's reality rather than against it that is going to go a long way toward being a positive, optimistic person. That will make you successful over the long term. All right, so I hope you take away from all of this something super fascinating and also inspiring about building muscle, in that your body is very intelligent. Also inspiring about building muscle in that your body is very intelligent when you understand that these adaptations occur not as obstacles, but as signals that you are pushing the boundaries of growth.

Philip Pape: 23:19

That is where you can say all right now, what do I do to work with that? The fact that my maintenance calories have increased so dramatically is not a problem at all. It is a sign my body has built the machinery to handle more volume, more food and ultimately, yeah, more muscle. That's my takeaway. Maybe I'm rationalizing, lying to myself, but I don't think I am. This is like an increased metabolic capacity. It means I'm more resilient. It means I'm more capable of handling intense training. It means I'm better equipped for long-term growth. And guess what? I know I can now do this kind of program in the future and get some pretty good gains, which means look out numbers. Here we come, all right.

Philip Pape: 23:58

So we often hear about metabolic adaptation during fat loss, but the same mechanisms are working in reverse during a bulk, and that was what I wanted to talk about today. So if you can understand this, it's not just going to help you gain weight, that's fine. Eat more calories, that's fine. It really helps you build a more resilient, more capable physique All right, a physique that you didn't have before. That is a new person. You've become a more athletic, strong, capable person. Stop chasing skinny, start chasing strong.

Philip Pape: 24:27

What I've learned through this phase has changed how I approach muscle building now for the next time, as well as for myself and my clients. And sometimes the hardest gains. You know that these hard parts are the things that teach us the valuable lessons about how our bodies adapt and grow. All right, if you want to build muscle more effectively and understand the science behind successful bulking, grab your free copy of my Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint. This guide gives you the exact steps and framework to optimize your nutrition to maximize muscle growth and minimize fat gain. Head to witsandweightscom slash muscle or click the link in the show notes to download your copy 100% free. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember when your metabolism fights back, it is not trying to stop you. It is challenging you to get stronger. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Are Low Bar Squats REALLY Needed for Strength and Size? (Andy Baker) | Ep 283

Download my free Progressive Overload Guide to maximize your progress in the gym and build strength and size.

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What if sticking to just one squat style is actually limiting your gains? Struggling with joint pain or mobility issues from low bar squats but are afraid to switch?

I’m joined by elite strength coach Andy Baker to break down the myth that low bar squatting is mandatory for gains. We dive deep into the world of squats, comparing different styles to see which ones are best for building muscle and strength. Andy and I will help you figure out the perfect squat for your body and what you want to achieve.

Andy Baker is a highly sought-after strength coach, co-author of Practical Programming and The Barbell Prescription, and owner of Kingwood Strength & Conditioning. Through his Baker Barbell Club, he’s helped thousands of lifters get stronger by training smarter.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

05:59 – Why low bar squats aren’t as superior as you think
09:40 – The origins of low bar squatting and why it became dominant
16:40 – When and why you shouldn’t low bar squat
22:05 – How to know if you should switch your squat
29:20 – The real reason elbow and shoulder pain happens with low bar
35:40 – Why strategic variation makes you stronger and healthier
46:07 – The most underrated squat variation for quad growth
55:49 – The #1 most common squat mistake lifters make
1:09:05 – Best squat variations for quads—Andy’s top picks
1:20:52 – How to cue yourself for a perfect squat
1:25:00 – Outro

Episode resources:

• Baker Barbell Club: andybaker.com 

• Ep 60: Strength and Programming for Maximum Gains at Any Age with Andy Baker

• Ep 131: Andy Baker on Bodybuilding for Hypertrophy and an Aesthetic, Muscular Physique

The Truth About Low Bar Squats for Strength and Muscle

If you’ve ever forced yourself into a low bar squat because you thought it was the only way to get strong and build muscle, or if joint pain and mobility issues have made it a struggle, this is for you. Strength coach Andy Baker is back on the show to break down the role of squat variations and whether low bar squatting is truly necessary for size and strength.

Why the Low Bar Squat Became the Gold Standard

The low bar squat has been championed in strength training circles—especially in programs like Starting Strength—for its efficiency. It recruits a lot of muscle mass, allows for heavier loading, and helps beginners get strong quickly. But as Andy points out, this doesn’t mean it’s the only way to squat, nor does it guarantee better results than other variations.

• More weight ≠ more muscle – Just because you can lift heavier doesn’t mean you’re maximizing hypertrophy.

• Not all squats are created equal – Different squat variations shift emphasis to different muscle groups.

• Injury and comfort matter – If low bar is wrecking your elbows and shoulders, forcing it may be a losing battle.

The Real Difference Between Squat Variations

Andy sketched out a simple spectrum: on one end, not squatting at all (zero), and on the other, the low bar squat (rated as a 10 in effectiveness). But the kicker? Most other squat variations—high bar, safety bar, even some machine-based options—were clustered right behind it at an 8 or 9. The takeaway? The difference between them isn’t as drastic as people assume.

So if low bar is causing pain or limiting your progress, shifting to a high bar squat, safety squat bar, or even a well-executed hack squat isn’t going to derail your strength gains.

Does Low Bar Build More Muscle Than High Bar?

Here’s where it gets interesting:

• Low bar squats bring in more hips, glutes, and adductors, making them effective for overall strength but not necessarily optimal for quad growth.

• High bar squats put more demand on the quads while still engaging the posterior chain.

• Safety squat bar squats challenge the upper back more and can be easier on the shoulders and elbows.

• Hack squats isolate the quads effectively while minimizing stress on the spine.

For muscle growth, a mix of variations often works best. If you’re trying to maximize quad development, relying only on low bar squats might not be ideal.

When to Ditch the Low Bar Squat

If you're constantly dealing with nagging pain in your elbows or shoulders, or if low bar just doesn’t feel natural, it’s worth experimenting with different squat styles. Some key scenarios where swapping it out makes sense:

• Chronic elbow or shoulder pain from low bar positioning

• Struggling to hit depth or maintain good form

• Plateauing in squat strength despite consistent training

• Training for hypertrophy and needing more quad emphasis

What’s the Best Squat for You?

It depends on your goals:

• For strength – If you’re a powerlifter, low bar squatting is useful for competition. But if you’re a general lifter, you can get strong with multiple squat styles.

• For muscle growth – A combination of high bar squats, hack squats, and safety bar squats may be better than just low bar squats alone.

• For longevity and pain-free training – If low bar is causing chronic issues, it’s not "better" for you—choose a variation that lets you train consistently.

At the end of the day, squatting in a way that fits your body and goals is more important than sticking to a specific squat style out of dogma. Don’t let attachment to one lift limit your progress.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been forcing yourself to low bar squat because you believe it's the only way to maximize strength and muscle, or if nagging joint pain and mobility issues make low bar squatting a struggle and you're wondering can I squat a different way and still build strength and size. This episode is for you. Today, I'm discussing the low bar squat with strength coach Andy Baker. You'll discover how different squat variations compare for building muscle and strength, learn why sticking to just one squat style could be limiting your results, and get a clear framework for choosing the right squat variation for your goals and body. So, whether you've got injuries, you're questioning if low bar squatting is right for you, or you just want to understand the options, this episode will give you the knowledge to train effectively without giving up squatting altogether. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:00

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've invited Andy Baker back on the show for the third time to discuss squat variations and challenge the notion that there is one best way to squat. Andy's a highly sought after strength coach, co-author of Practical Programming and the Barbell Prescription. He's the owner of Kingwood Strength and Conditioning and the online Baker Barbell Club, where he's helped thousands of lifters like myself train to get stronger by training smarter. If you missed him last time, check out episode 60 and 131, where we discussed his programming, philosophy and approach to bodybuilding. I'll throw the links in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 1:35

But today we're answering the question are low bar squats really needed to build strength and size? Andy, thanks for coming back on the show. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. So I wanted to bring you on because a few days ago in your Facebook group, you posted a picture of a line graph from zero to 10, and 10 was the low bar squat, implying it was the, let's say, most effective squat. Whatever you want to call it. Zero was not squatting at all, and then a whole bunch of other variations of the squats clustered near the 10. And I want to ask you why you posted that and get into what it means.

Andy Baker: 2:08

Yeah, so that little graphic or that little picture that I posted, it came as a result of a conversation with one of my members, a longtime member of my club, and it's a conversation that I not just had with him. I've had with dozens or hundreds of people in some context. You know, throughout all the time I've been, you know, hosting forums and social media and you know just conversations with clients and that sort of thing. It's something that's come up, you know, a million times. And so the little graphic that I did was a hand-drawn. You know, I just I had this conversation with him and I literally just reached over and grabbed a piece of typing paper and a Sharpie and made this and took a picture of it with my phone and posted it on the Facebook group, because I don't know how to create infographics, because I'm-.

Philip Pape: 2:55

That's the way to do it, man. It's organic, right I'm technologically.

Andy Baker: 2:58

you know, like my technological age is about 80. So I don't know how to use Canva and all that stuff. Every time I do it it winds up taking me 10 times longer than it should, and it's just so. I'm like you know what, I'm just going to draw this really quick and take a picture of it and put it on there. But like it got a lot of response on there and I was kind of surprised like how many people really responded to that and kind of self-reported, like how eye-opening it was to me, which that happens when you're coaching.

Andy Baker: 3:27

Sometimes you don't realize things that you assume to be common knowledge or things, that you take a lot of things for granted, and then you you say something. You know just a little short infographic or an offhand comment that you make on a subject and it just, for whatever reason, resonates with tons of people. And this one did, and basically the conversation that I had with him. It's a guy that has been lifting in my club for a long time and he's had a history of different injuries and things like that. Nothing major but just little shit that we all get when we're pushing ourselves hard, but things elbows and shoulders I can't. Actually I can't remember right now what the actual issue he was having, but it's been a recurring issue with him over a number of years with low bar squatting and basically what he was kind of reporting to me was that I had told him to start integrating the safety squat bar, you know, not too long ago to kind of save some wear and tear on his elbows and shoulders.

Andy Baker: 4:28

Um, and then he had more or less basically just converted to safety bar squatting entirely and trained like that for a while and didn't have any issues. Uh, all the kind of the, all the little minor injury stuff that he had been dealing with off and on, just kind of went away when he switched over to the safety squat bar and then he decided, okay, I'm going to go back to low bar and a lot of those, some of the little injury stuff started coming back. He was very disappointed and frustrated because low bar is something that he wanted to do but he's like, at this point is it worth it? And he he sounded like the tone of his post was very dejected and I was, I like I didn't quite get it.

Philip Pape: 5:07

Life is over because I can't lower anymore. That was kind of the tone is that like, is it over for me?

Andy Baker: 5:11

like yeah, and the kind of the tone of his post was that like, well, I'm relegated to this other squat variation. You know, I'm relegated to safety squat bar. So it's. It was like somebody told him you know, you just need to do yoga or something you know know. It was like and I'm like, dude, it's not that big of a trade-off. And so I said, let me here, let me explain this to you, because I think you're making this out to be a much bigger deal than it is to switch to some other squat variation. And so I did the little graph and I'm like, look, you guys know me, I came out of the starting strength world. I'm an advocate of the low bar squat. I do think it's. You know, if you had to rank them, um, which that's. That kind of stuff's hard to do because it's always context dependent. It's hard to. With exercises, it's always hard to say this is best. You know this is first, this is second. You know cause it's?

Philip Pape: 5:58

it's context dependent the S tier, the A tier, yeah, yeah.

Andy Baker: 6:01

Right. So it's like it will. It's always. It goes back to that answer that people hate, which is you know, it depends. You know what's the best squatting? Very well, it depends. But you know, if I kind of made this little chart and I was like okay, or this little graph and I was like okay, if we assume, if we're going to say that you know, low bar is the best and I put that as a 10, you guys have in your head that these other squat variations are like two and three, like they're, they're like way, way down, and I said, look, they're probably like eight or nine, like they're all. So it's like all these squat very like low bars, 10 it's over here, but then like right behind it would be the other. You know squat variations of um. You know front variations of um. You know front uh, not front squats necessarily, but high bar, safety bar and and then like zero is like not squatting yeah, it's good to have that on there.

Philip Pape: 6:52

And then like, and then even like leg presses.

Andy Baker: 6:54

I put it like six or something and you know, as what happens online, people get really wrapped up in like the actual number. Well, is it a six? And I'm like don't get. What the point is is like you're not, you're not missing out on that much by switching to it. So like don't get dejected and think that like it's over for you because you can't do this one exercise. And I would say that to any exercise, not just low bar versus high, I'd say that if a guy can't bench, you know, for whatever reason, you know, if the, if the flat barbell bench, like are you missing out on some stuff by not being able to do that? Probably, but is there other things that you can do that are going to still get your upper body, you know, big and strong, of course. So it's not like it's over. There's been plenty of great, you know, bodybuilders and strength athletes and stuff that had to do modified versions of things you know.

Andy Baker: 7:45

So, and that was kind of my point with him was like, look at this point, even me being an advocate of like low bar and all that kind of stuff, you're going on several years now of battling this stuff and even if it is theoretically better on paper for all the reasons that you know, I would tell you that it is it's not better for you as the individual in practice because you're having to just constantly battle through entries and it's not just affecting your ability to squat, but when your elbows and shoulders and stuff are getting tore up from it, it's affecting your bench pressing and your upper body work too. So it's not. What good are you really getting out of it by constantly having to battle through this?

Philip Pape: 8:28

Yeah, people reduce it to just the lift as opposed to the systematic recovery, the consistency, like you said, the avoiding injury. Man, we were talking before about my shoulder and my favorite lift used to be the overhead press and I can't do it right now. So what do I do? Do I go cry? No, I have to figure out what to do. But there might be people listening like why is this a big deal? There are others listening like they love you because they, you know starting strength and they came from that world and they're like well, we know why the low bar is just dominant. What is the origin of that whole thing? So we can get into it. Why is the low bar squat seat put on this pedestal?

Andy Baker: 9:01

Well, it's for the reasons that are outlined, that Ripoteau has outlined in starting strength, basic barbell training, and again you have to kind of put that into context of who is starting strength written, for it's a beginner's program and we're trying to maximize certain amounts of things, and one of those things we're trying to maximize is efficiency. And so you know, what are the lifts that were selected for a novice program, you know, for somebody that's interested in general strength, and that would be the overhead press, the bench press, muscle mass through their most effective range of motion with the most weight possible. So, what variation of lifts? Uh, best satisfy those three criteria and we're going to use those to help us kind of make our exercise selections for a novice and just work on mastering those basic lifts rather than trying, just like any other area of skill development, whether it's in sport or not, even outside of sport, any other discipline that you're trying to learn from scratch and master, is going to start with a handful of basic fundamentals that need to be mastered before you move on to the next thing and the next thing and so.

Andy Baker: 10:29

But then the argument becomes well, what are the basics? I mean, most people don't get in an argument about that, whether it's weight training or math or baseball or any other discipline that somebody would be trying to learn from scratch. If you just make the general assertion that, well, you need to master the basics first, most people go, oh yeah, that makes sense, that's probably right, and then you go on to more and more complex things. From there the argument comes as okay, what are the basics, what are the basic things that you should master? Because most people agree that, as a beginner in any discipline, trying to master too many things especially for people that are doing this, that aren't particularly athletic all the time, it's harder for them to master too many things. So what are the things that we want to focus on in the beginning, that are going to give you the biggest ROI on your return in the gym, that are going to build the most amount of strength, build the most amount of muscle mass, carry over to other endeavors, and so those are the reasons that the low bar was chosen as the squat variation is that it allows more weight to be used. It works more muscle mass than the other variations through their most effective range motion. So does it work? Now, it doesn't work.

Andy Baker: 11:35

The quads specifically, as well as, say, a high bar squat, but the high bar squat in general uses less weight and it doesn't work other muscle groups quite as well as the low bar squat in general uses less weight and it doesn't work other muscle groups quite as well as the low bar squat does. So that's why the low bar was chosen. It doesn't mean a high bar squat is a bad exercise. It just means that for a novice, we think that a low bar squat is the best way to go for those reasons. It's going to work more muscle mass and allow you to use more weight, which are important things for a novice to do in terms of it, because the novice program doesn't use a lot of exercises.

Andy Baker: 12:09

So we're looking at what the exercises that we do use. We want them to work more muscle efficiently, and so on a low bar squat you get a lot of quads not as good as a high bar, but you still get a lot. A lot of quads. You get a lot of hamstring, a lot of gluten, a lot of quads. You get a lot of hamstring, a lot of gluten, a lot of adductor, and so we like to develop all of those things with just a single exercise, which is the way a beginner should do it, as opposed to where we would do. Let's say, we want to work the legs with leg extensions, leg curls, an adductor machine and RDLs or something. That's an inefficient way for a novice to build muscle mass and strength when you could basically develop all of those things with a single exercise.

Andy Baker: 12:53

That is also going to increase force production to a much higher degree. So that's why the low bar is recommended for a novice and then as a, as a trainee progresses and his the goals become more specific to that person. Then you look at, not just on squats but every exercise, branching out your exercise selection to more you know uh, meet whatever your individual goals and needs are. So that's where that comes from.

Philip Pape: 13:19

Yeah, yeah. And before we get to that cause, I love that. If you were writing start, if you were inventing a starting strength today it never existed, you'd never heard of any of that Would you still pick the low bar squat even if equipment wasn't an issue? So, in other words, safety squat bars are just as common as barbells, um, kabuki bars, whatever. Is there anything you would? Would you make a change today?

Andy Baker: 13:41

Not really, because if you do, it just muddies the water for people. You know it depends on whether you're when you're talking about providing information. Are you providing information to an individual or are you providing individual to the masses, to a large group of people? And and to you know and I get an. You know this is always hard when you're writing, when you're doing like what I do and you're trying to do articles or podcasts or whatever. You know this is always hard when you're writing, when you're doing like what I do and you're trying to do articles or podcasts or whatever, there's always a million different caveats and exceptions to everything that you're going to say, and it's it's hard to say anything without you know wanting to provide all those caveats and exceptions to everything, but then what happens is everybody thinks that they're the exception.

Philip Pape: 14:23

Right, so it's.

Andy Baker: 14:24

So, in terms of just now, I can tell you in practice, having walked a million people through you know, like a like a novice program, there are plenty of people, especially with my in-gym clients, who tend to be much older, who from day one cannot do a low bar squat. They and it's it's because of the grip issue. They just and if you've never worked with adults in their 50s and 60s and 70s I mean it's 50-50 at best whether somebody's going to be able to get a bar into the low bar position and you don't want to force it down there. I mean some things can be stretched.

Andy Baker: 14:59

Sometimes people have mobility issues that can be improved with time, but sometimes those issues with your you know you get older men and stuff in there with very arthritic shoulders and that sort of thing those are that's not really that improvable. So you're going to have to find a place on their back where they can put the bar and squat it. And so you're going to have, if you, if you do this stuff in person with people, you're going to have a whole bunch of your clients, especially if you're working with older adults, that are going to be high bar squatting from day one and are never going to low bar squat because they cannot get the bar into that position, and trying to force it into that position is only going to do damage to them from an injury perspective. So sometimes those mobility issues improve over time, yes, but sometimes they don't, and so it's not an issue that you necessarily want to force.

Andy Baker: 15:45

And so, in practice, you're going to have a whole lot of people, uh, that are going to wind up, you know, doing high bar squat or even like a safety bar squat or something like that, from day one, you know, and so that's, uh, that's one of those things, and that's that's where the importance of and and and rip went to in starting strength. Rip went to great pains not to just provide a program in there but explain certain things that would help a coach who can take the information and think on his feet about how to make these adjustments there are. He went to great pains to making sure that people understood things like the relationship to where the bar sits on your shoulders or your back and where it is relative to your midfoot.

Andy Baker: 16:32

Well, when you understand that, you can tailor a squat to anybody, right, and so, um, principal first principles Yep, right, you do have, and so you need to understand the whole thing and the bigger picture rather than just doing what people do, which is flip to the back of the book and find the program and go, okay, I'm going to do this and oh, I can't. Low bar squat, what do I do? Well, if you understood the whole model of the pains that they went to to explain you know how and why squats are performed, the way that they are, um, and how to do them and how to coach them, then you will learn that you know the high bar versus low bar thing. It kind of exists on a spectrum as well. Not everybody is a pure high bar squatter with the bar way up on top of their traps, nor are they a pure low bar squatter with it. You know much further down across the spine of their scapula and that some people may be in between.

Andy Baker: 17:25

But as long as you understand that relationship to where does the bar sit relative to its position over the middle of the foot, then you can put people into a squat that's going to work for them and it may be kind of a tweener, a little bit of a kind of between high bar and low bar squat that feels right for them, that maximizes and gives them the best leverage, but isn't going to force a range of motion on their shoulders that they can't do, and that that position on their back may change over time.

Andy Baker: 17:53

They may be able to get the bar lower. They may start out low and it needs to go higher because it's causing problems, and then you, as the coach, know how to adjust the rest of the squat in order to accommodate where the bar is going to be on there. A big mistake that people make in this high bar versus low bar thing is they'll read the book and they'll go well, I can't do low bar squat because that hurts. And so they'll put the bar in a high bar position and then continue to use low bar mechanics for the rest of the squat.

Andy Baker: 18:22

And you can't do that Because then if you're trying to keep a more horizontal back angle and use a lot of hip drive and you've got the bar and high bar, you're creating a moment arm where that barbell is getting way forward to the midfoot and that's not a good position to be in.

Andy Baker: 18:37

Likewise, if you have the bar in low bar position and you're trying to keep a very vertical torso and you're not understanding why you can't get to depth, well, it's because if you get to depth you're going to fall over backwards because the weight is now so far behind your midfoot that you can't balance it anymore, and so understanding that relationship between bar and midfoot really solves this problem. So you're just trying to get the bar in the right spot for each person, not necessarily getting so wrapped up in whether is it in high bar or is it low bar or is it kind of somewhere in between, and then just getting people set up in the right squat that's good for them, and using those kind of those physics principles that are outlined in the book, those very basic physics principles, to keep that barbell in balance over the midfoot so that they can squat strong but also squat safely.

Philip Pape: 19:29

Yeah, and I'll say anybody who hasn't read starting strength, it is worth looking at the biomechanics charts where they explain all that, also the 30 something page chapter on squats, and actually sit and take notes and start from the you know foot stance and doing it without a bar, and go through that whole process and then get a coach. Once you've tried that for a little bit because you still are not are going to be missing some things. Yeah, people's arms are different lengths. There's so many different reasons. I was talking to my, you know, tony. He was in the group Tony Perry. I'll give him a shout out, cause he he wanted me to send some questions your way too, but he's now maxing, or he's now hitting PRS on his high bar because he switched to it because of his, uh, soreness in the elbow.

Philip Pape: 20:08

As I joined a doctor a doctor, you know I myself went to kind of a between high bar and low bar because of my shoulder, and yet now I'm like, should I just go to the safety squat bar? After seeing your graph, it's like it's not that big of a difference, right, so? But at the end of the day, what you said about the bar path and being over midfoot once you understand that, you can then understand the eye gaze, you understand where squat shoes might be helpful, you understand, like you know, where the knees go and the different squats, because sometimes there'll be more forward and the more upright squats and such. I mean you kind of figure that out over time. So a lot of this which I've learned from you, andy no-transcript.

Andy Baker: 21:09

And then, like you said, understanding individual anthropometry I've been low bar squatting for over 20 years. I've never had an issue with any of the stuff that people regularly have issues with. I've never had shoulder inflammation, I've never had elbow inflammation. I've never had a torn adductor. You know some of those, uh, the most common problems that we see from low bar squatting. I've never had that. But I can't use just my own experience as a lifter and carry that over to a coach and and uh, or in my role as a coach and I have to recognize that certain people are going to and you can do the other assumption that everybody makes is that if my elbows are hurting, my shoulders are hurting or whatever, I'm doing something wrong, that I'm making an egregious form mistake, and if I could fix this, that may be the case and that's why coaching is important you may be making a mistake. There are some very common mistakes that people make in low bar that will exacerbate all of those injuries. I'd say the most common one is probably carrying way too much of the bar weight in the hands. So people have in their head that the low bar is much lower than it actually is and so they've got that bar seated actually well below the spine of the scapula and what happens is, in order to accommodate that, they're either having to bend way over a much more horizontal back angle than what we would like, or, if they try to keep the torso more vertical and what's kind of a more natural or more aesthetically pleasing looking squat, is that they wind up carrying a lot of the weight of the bar in their hands, as opposed to the whole weight of the bar in their hands, as opposed to the whole weight of the barbell sitting on their back. And that's one of the places that we try to get people on. Day one is kind of where they could kind of loosen the fingers off the bar and the bar still pinned to their back, so they're not actually carrying load in their hands. Because if you are, that's going to drive this area in here, nuts shoulders, it's not your shoulders and elbows aren't going to hold up to that. So, getting the bar higher if people are carrying the bar too low and carrying it in their hands and getting that into the proper place Some people are, especially smaller guys.

Andy Baker: 23:17

They tend to want to pull their hands way too far in and it's like they're under so much tension while they're squatting. It's like, yeah, if you do enough reps like that, enough days per week, you're, you're holding a very, very forceful isometric contraction there. You know it could lead to some some elbow or shoulder, you know discomfort and it's like you know, teaching people. It's not really about where your hands are, it's about your shoulder blades. It's about keeping that really tight upper back, really retracting those shoulder blades with some people call packing. You know you're taking all the skin and muscle and fat on your upper back and really pulling it in tight and really building a good shelf for that bar to sit on. The hands work to just kind of reinforce those tight shoulder blades. But you can keep the tight shoulder blades and move your hands out a little bit in order to take a little pressure off the elbows.

Andy Baker: 24:09

And a lot of people don't they have this idea that their hands need to be drawn in just absolutely where it's. It's like if you pulled their fingers off the bar they would just come apart, like you know, like a cartoon. You know cause they're, they're wound up so tight underneath that. So tight is good, we don't want to be loose under the bar, but understanding what is the role of the hands, the role of the hands is to reinforce the tightness of the upper back, not to have the hands tight on the bar just for the sake of having the hands tight on the bar.

Andy Baker: 24:37

So a lot of people just don't understand big picture of why things the way, that they are the same thing with the thumbs around the bar versus thumbs over the top of the bar. You know a lot of people don't. The reason why you know it's often coached to have the thumbs over the top of the bar instead of gripped around the bar is because that makes it harder to hold the weight in your hands and we're trying to teach the lifter to pin the bar to your back. Pin the bar to your back, pin the bar to your back with your hands Don't hold the weight in your hands and so by eliminating the thumbs it almost it mechanically prevents them from holding a lot of the bar weight in their hands. It forces them to just pin the bar to their back and that keeps a higher percentage of the bar weight, you know, just on their torso instead of in their hand, no-transcript. And when you have a good, clear, big picture, understanding of that, then it allows you to manipulate them in order to fit you, as opposed to just say, well, I got to do it this way, I got to do it this way.

Andy Baker: 25:42

And there's so many people that get involved in this world that are just so obsessive, compulsive about things to their own detriment, and they don't even really understand why it is they're doing what they're doing. And so when you, when you don't have the big picture understanding, then you don't know how to manipulate the variables to create a good squat for yourself or for the lifter that you coach, you're just, you're just blindly following this model, and the model is to get you into a good. It's like one of the things of a model, one of the analogies that I use, and this is true of programming and it's true of uh, of, of, uh. You know technique models, if you want to call it that, or is that. It's kind of it's like a hand-drawn map for somebody. You know, if I draw you a very detailed hand-drawn map, um, of how to get somewhere, how to go somewhere, that's going to get you really, really close to the destination, if it's accurate, but it may not account for every pothole in the road, every puddle every log that fell.

Philip Pape: 26:44

You know what I'm saying.

Andy Baker: 26:45

You're going to have to do some self-navigation on that road. You can't just close your eyes and blindly lock down the road because I drew you a map. You still have to have your eyes open and learn how to navigate some of this stuff. And the same thing is true whether it's a program that somebody writes for you or that you're following, or whether it's a technique model that you're following, is that, yeah, you should try to follow it as best as you can, but you still have to do some individual adaptation along the way to make it fit you and realize what you can manipulate and what you can't. And that makes it really easy and it undoes a lot of this kind of obsessive, compulsive thinking.

Andy Baker: 27:17

Makes it really easy and it undoes a lot of this kind of obsessive, compulsive thinking and it undoes some of the anxiety about having to switch from a low bar to a high bar, which is just, or you know, a safety squat bar or something which to me, even as a starting strength coach which advocates for low bar squatting, I just don't see as that big of a deal in practice for people who are just trying to use this for as a means to get generally stronger and build some muscle mass.

Andy Baker: 27:38

It's just not that. It's just not that big of a deal, especially if you're constantly battling injuries and such like that. Just, I mean, you know as well as I do the one thing that'll derail your progress more than anything else in the jeb it's not your squat technique, it's not your program, it's injury. Injury is the the thing that will set you back weeks, months and years and cause you to never get any headway when you're continuously dealing with the same old injuries over and over again. And so getting somebody where they can train in a way that's pain and injury free is, you know, it's really one of the big picture things you got to take care of.

Philip Pape: 28:21

Yeah, and that's why I wonder how many people start with a low bar and let's say they deal with all the biomechanics and the technique issues you talked about, cause we're maybe talking two audiences at the same time one who maybe hasn't quite learned the low bar squat properly or need to learn some of the things you talked about, like the thumb over grip and others, and then you have folks that are like a lot of folks in your club who came from the starting strength world. They know the low bar squat, they've done it, and then something happens either they get injured or it's just not comfortable anymore. Um, how common do you see people then transition away from the low bar squat due to those issues and maybe even find better results, cause now they've got something that works for them introduce some variations to their programming.

Andy Baker: 28:55

Most people will not just low bar squat all the time. I usually don't remove it from the program, you know, unless there's a need to remove it from the program, like they have an injured adductor or something like that but or if they're, you know they're having the repetitive shoulder and elbow pain and we can't get it fixed. You know, if there's no reason to remove it, I don't just arbitrarily remove it, but I may reduce the frequency of it and introduce other variations for any number of reasons, Some of which just might be preventative. It's just to to, because I know those issues are likely to occur, even if their form is good, and all that kind of stuff I may introduce, like their light day squat, maybe a safe squat bar.

Philip Pape: 29:56

It's simply to eliminate the movement pattern altogether. Right, of course, the cause of the issue, yeah.

Andy Baker: 30:01

Right, and that's what what gets people is is, um, it's not just the low bar squat like in the starting strength program where we're having people squat three days a week heavy. You know that's, that's a short term thing for a novice. You know. I always say you know you're looking at six weeks to six months. You know, with six weeks being really really short on the short side, six months being kind of exceptionally long, most people be it in that three to four month range of how, how long they're going to be able to run or should run the novice phase of the program. But during that short window of time, you know we're having people squat fairly heavy three days a week because they can, they can get away with it and they can, they can add weight to the bar, you know, two to three times a week, um and so, and they can put a lot of poundage on their bar in a very short period of time. They'll make the fastest progress they've ever made. But then you know, once the once the novice gains are realized, you have to. You have to uh, switch your programming methodology.

Andy Baker: 30:55

And squatting with the low bar heavy three days a week is not a good idea and squatting low bar period three days a week may not be a good idea, even if you're using something like a heavy light medium system where you're only going heavy once a week and the other days. It's the frequency that gets people and that's not just true of low bar squats, that would be true of a lot of different lifts. It's it's the frequency that you're exposed to that creates the problems. It's not usually the load, it's the fact that you're low bar squatting three days a week. So you're just hammering away on the exact same tissue in the exact same way in the exact same spot, day after day after day after day, and that's what's. That's what gets people so like, say, reducing.

Andy Baker: 31:38

If you're squatting twice a week and you're going to have your heavy main squat day, be your low bar squat, but then your light day later in the week, maybe that's a safety squat bar so that we're still training that squat pattern. It's not that different from a low bar. In some ways it's not different at all, depending on how you carry the bar, but it allows your shoulders and your elbows to relax and get a break. And maybe that lighter squat day is being paired with your heavy bench day so that you can do your squats first and you're not carrying any of that fatigue over to your bench press. A lot of people and I guarantee there's somebody listening to this they think they're they're they go to, they're doing their bench pressing and they're feeling that elbow tendonitis in their you know, in their elbows while they're bench pressing and they think, well, what am I doing wrong on the bench, like it's like nine times out of say one are you bench pressing?

Andy Baker: 32:29

directly after squatting?

Andy Baker: 32:39

If so, we're going to change that. Or are you bench pressing the day after squatting? And if so, we're going to change that. We're going to bench the day before we squat instead of vice versa, in order so that they're not having to, Because what happens is that the inflammation that's being created in their elbows from the low bar isn't manifesting until they get on the bench, but they attribute it to their bench press because that's just where they feel it, but that's not what's causing it. It's the low bar squat that's causing it. So you know. So just playing with exercise selection, you know, down the road in order to minimize that kind of stuff and say stay healthy and stay injury free is just smart programming.

Philip Pape: 33:16

Yeah, you know, the more I've gone through this with some of your programs, like Conjugate, your bodybuilding program, others even volume-based programs where they have developmental variations of the lift and talk to a bunch of great coaches on this show is the variety has massive benefits. Once you get past that point, even for reasons you may not be aware of, because of the fatigue versus stimulus over time issues, especially as we get older, where things are just cascading across days, like you said, you might be doing your low bar Monday and then your next upper body. You have a developmental variation of the squat, you mix it up or testing the one RMs on conjugate right and you go to a. You rotate literally every week. There's something to be said for that Cause. I know there's dogma in the world that they come from with starting strength, which a wrong audience cause. That's beginners Right. And if, if you then extrapolate that, okay, so the next 10 years I'm going to do the same three lifts over and over, it's not going to be sustainable For most people.

Andy Baker: 34:10

That's true. And exactly what you're saying for strategic variety is kind of what I call it, where the variety is strictly there for the purposes of fatigue management, and that's both systemic fatigue, you know, just manipulating the exercises so that you're using, like with the conjugate program, like on your max effort day, where you're. You know, this week we're doing a rack pull and it's 650 pounds, and then the next week we're doing a front squat which is 300 pounds, like that's there strictly to kind of mitigate some of that systemic fatigue, but also the local fatigue which is not doing the same movement hard and heavy, over and over and over again, because it's the same. I call them hotspots, but it's basically the same little, it's not just the same tissue, but the same little spot, the same little point on the tissue where it's the weakest or the most vulnerable is being stressed over and over and over and over again and not getting any time to recover from that stress. Even just switching from a low bar to a high bar is slightly changing where the peak stress is at in the tissue, and I don't necessarily know where it's at in every single lift, but I know it's different, right, so I know the peak stress in a max effort, low bar squat is in a different spot than it is in the high bar squat and in a different spot than it is in the low bar squat and in a different place than it is in a deadlift. And so by kind of varying up those movements week to week on your heaviest days, you're minimizing that stress being all directed in the same exact place every single time.

Andy Baker: 35:44

The best analogy and I have to give credit to Matt Winning for this, for pointing it out I don't know if he was the first, I'm not a big, necessarily Matt Winning guy, but still I have to give credit for it because he's the one where I heard it and I was like that's perfect analogy. It's just like rotating the tires on your car. Why do we rotate the tires on your car? Because, if you're and if you want to take that analogy even further, what if we kept the tires, all four tires, in the same spot and all we did was high speed left turns in a circle, right, that's where would the where be? Well, it would be in one spot, it would be in a, it would be in one spot and it would be in a predictable spot, right, because the peak amount of stress on those tires is in the same spot all the time. But how so?

Philip Pape: 36:25

how do you accelerate?

Andy Baker: 36:26

It would accelerate because you're going fast, right, and it just like with you when you're going heavy. That's like the same analogy is going fast, so you're applying peak stress to the same area over and over and over again. Well, how do you mitigate that? Well, make some right-hand turns, mix the right-hand turns in with the left-hand turns. Rotate your tires every few months so that it's a little bit. The back tires get moved to the front and left gets moved to right. So you're mixing it up a little bit and it's just a small amount of variation like that, you know, can save your tires a lot of wear and tear, right. So it's, that's the same way to the tire.

Andy Baker: 37:03

Analogy is the same way to think about the different tissues on your body is, if you're going hard and heavy frequently, all the time on the same lifts, it's going, you're going to wear out those spots. So, figuring out a way to reduce frequency, introduce variation. There's a lot of different ways you can go about it Managing, mixing up the loads, the intensities, that sort of thing. That's going to save you a lot. And again, it mitigates against injury and overuse, which is the thing that derails your training more than anything. So I'd rather have somebody injury free on a, maybe a what is on paper a slightly suboptimal program, versus being on the optimal program and being hurt all the time.

Andy Baker: 37:47

Right that that makes it not an optimal program it cancels out the optimality and it made and it differs across individuals, right like, like what's, because again we get into the anthropometry thing. So even with differences in anthropometry I mean the frequency and the exercise selection and all that that may work for well for one guy is not necessarily going to work for the next guy. And and even even not just limb length and things like that, but even you know even the size of a guy's traps and upper back. I mean, if you get a guy that's a real thick power lifter type guy with real thick, big traps and big, thick upper back, versus a guy that's 165 pounds, that's not as developed or whatever. I mean that can be different as well. Have trouble with low bar, say, one guy doesn't have enough thickness to do it, right, he's got, he just doesn't have enough meat back there. I mean he can, but it makes it harder when you don't have, when there's nothing to pack, pack together and create a shelf for that bar to sit on. You know that the skinny guy may have trouble with it, but so also is the big, thick guy that's got monster traps and a big thick upper back and all that. He may also have trouble getting the bar down there. So you. You know you just can't force it with everybody and you have to kind of, you know, understand the bigger model and then just find, find the spot on the back and the variation that's going to work best for them. Yeah, go ahead. I was going to say just, I mean, this is just an aside, but I was kind of terms of the preventative thing, where I was talking about changing exercise selection slightly, not just in response to a problem, but in order to potentially prevent a problem that you know is likely to occur.

Andy Baker: 39:31

I do that a lot with certain athletes. A lot with certain athletes Probably more than any other sport of athletes that I've worked with is probably swimmers and baseball players. If I work with a pitcher that's a young kid or whatever that's got a really good arm and that's pitching a lot and maybe has a chance to go play college ball or maybe, you know, get drafted minor league or whatever. Like you have to protect their arm. As a coach, as a strength coach, yes, you want to get them bigger and stronger and all that kind of stuff is. Have them start having shoulder and elbow pain on their pitching arm. It'll get you.

Andy Baker: 40:18

I mean, you're one you can't, as a coach, be responsible for creating problems in the gym that are then carrying over to their sport. That's regardless of any sport. But like stuff like that, where you're you don't have a lot of leeway and the thing is is like with inflammation, tendonitis and things like that once it gets set in it's very hard to get rid of. You know, especially on a kid. That's like a pitcher that's throwing all the time the way that they do now, where they're not just. You know, it's not like they just have a game on Saturday.

Andy Baker: 40:49

These kids pitch all the time. They're going to private lessons all the time. So that arm is under a tremendous amount of wear and tear and of none of those, those types of factors are under your control as a coach. So you know it's very rare. If I get a kid of that caliber which I do get occasionally I'm probably going to have them safety squat bar right right off the bat, because I don't even want the potential of low bar squat fucking around with their shoulder or their elbow.

Andy Baker: 41:16

Yeah, just get the arms out of it, right, if it's just a general guy, that's, you know, 35, and comes in it's like, hey, I just want to build some muscle and get stronger. Then it's like, yeah, we're going to try low bar, you know, and if it doesn't work later and you start getting some elbow and shoulder pain, no big deal, we'll switch it up, you know and figure out. But somebody like that where you've got a higher caliber athlete or something where you have to really protect them, in those cases it may not even be worth the risk and it may just be well to start a risk mitigation game right off the bat and particular I have special interest in, and Tony and I were talking about how it places a little bit more stress on your back, actually in a weird way with a yoke, where you find you can't you know you can't push as much through the legs and the loads a little bit less than your low bar, but also there's this extra back element.

Philip Pape: 42:12

Is there some sort of rig or special equipment for an athlete where, if they literally just want to use their legs and nothing else, you know what I mean Like, or is that? Is that a hip squat or a belt squat? You know what I mean?

Andy Baker: 42:22

Yeah, that would be a belt squat, which may be appropriate in certain cases. I don't really put a. I put a belt squat kind of in the same place that I would like a leg press or something it's not like a six or seven, I'm not.

Andy Baker: 42:33

I'm not against them, but I don't think that they're quite as good of a tool. As you know, I like the idea of the force being generated from the legs and traveling up, you know, through the back and through the core, if you will, through the abs into the torso and up into the bar. I like that longer kinetic chain. I think there's a lot of value on that for most people in terms of really developing, you know, real practical full body strength. I think that longer kinetic chain of you know, from from the feet all the way up into the bar has a lot of value. You lose a lot of that with a with a belt squat or you know a leg press, certainly, um, you know, but do they have their place? For sure, if you have a guy with a bad injury, uh, to the upper body, where you know, or the back you know a guy with a bad injury to the upper body or the back, a guy with a bad back injury, something like that, then for sure a belt squat or something like that is entirely appropriate. The safety squat bar there's a learning curve to it, for sure. I kind of liken it to and again, it kind of depends on the person and where the bar exactly sits and even what they choose to do with the handles. You watch some guys kind of push up a little bit as they go down and come up. Some guys pull down a little bit, you know. So where does that bar sit? You can even flip it upside down to make it really hard if you want to. It's more like a front squat there, but it's you know, it's.

Andy Baker: 43:53

To me and this is just my own personal feedback from it, no-transcript my subjective feedback on it is it's kind of a tweener in between high bar and low bar. The weight that I'm able to do kind of reflects that. You know. It kind of is the weight I can squat on. Safety squat bar is kind of in between what I can do. You know high bar versus low bar. So I think that's an indicator to look at.

Andy Baker: 44:40

And then you know, I would say, depends on how you want to look at this.

Andy Baker: 44:43

Is it a downside or is it an upside to the safety squat bar is the stress that it places on the back and the fact that you do have to develop a very strong upper back in order to safety squat bar big weight, because it does want to roll you.

Andy Baker: 44:56

It does want to kind of collapse your upper body and roll you over. So if you're not you know, if you're not paying attention to that, if you're not you know, holding everything tight from the, from the waist up, and paying attention to that, it's easy for the heavy safety squat bar to get to fold you in half and you can kind of feel that when it gets heavy, you can feel that that that pressure of wanting to fold you up and you have to resist that at the same time that you're coming up, which is an element that is there on a barbell squat but not quite as pronounced as it is on a safety squat bar. So you know, in terms of, is that a pro or a con? It depends on the context. I happen to think that safety squat bar squatting, getting really strong on a safety squat bar has tremendous carryover to a barbell because of the fact that once you get on the barbell it almost seems easier after the safety squat bar, because of the fact that you've had to learn.

Philip Pape: 45:50

I totally agree with that yeah.

Andy Baker: 45:51

Your back and your core, if you will, and everything has gotten so much stronger that the barbell it feels I don't want to say feel easy, but it almost is like you're squatting on a machine or something, because you're not having to fight that tendency of that bar to want to fold you in half. So I think it has tremendous carryover to the squat. I also think it has tremendous carryover to the deadlift because I think in order to get a big safety squat, bar squat, you have to get, you have to get very, very strong in the mid back, and I think that that that's a positive thing. Um, as an assistance exercise, if you wanted to call it an assistance exercise for the deadlift, I think safety box safety squat, bar squatting is right up there, almost at the top of the list in terms of in terms of improving deadlift strength. So that's that's a. That's a pro as as a con. You know, deadlift strength, so that's a pro as a con. For people that are less athletic and maybe don't already have that upper body kind of the upper back or core strength or whatever you want to call it. It could be a con because then the limiting factor on the squat is no longer the legs and the hips.

Andy Baker: 46:52

It's like a front squat. It's like a front squat. It's like why is a front squat? In theory, is a front squat a really good squat variation for building up the quads? In theory, yes, for where you know the, where, where the bar sits and the fact that other muscle groups aren't as involved in the quads are having to do all the work and torso is very vertical and you can get a really full range of motion on the quads by getting deep, because you're not having to fight the resistance from the hamstrings and all that. So in theory, the front squat is a really great quad developer. In practice it's not always, because the limiting factor is almost never quad strength. For most people it's the rack position.

Andy Baker: 47:30

So, in order, from a hypertrophy standpoint, in order for an exercise to be considered a good hypertrophy movement, the limiting factor needs to be the target muscle that's being trained. So if you're doing front squats for the development of your quads but the quads are not what's limiting you and you're being limited by your ability to rack the bar or even just hold the bar upright and you're failing because you're getting doubled over at the bottom of the squat or halfway up on the squat, then it makes it not such a good exercise for that purpose. And so the safety squat bar in general is not as challenging as a front squat in order to maintain position, but it's more challenging than a barbell for most people, and so in some ways it could be considered not as good of an exercise if the limiting factor is that. But it's like everything else, though. If you start it, if you're new to it, and you start it in a conservative spot, you know with a weight that you can do and do in good form, and then you load it progressively, but conservatively.

Andy Baker: 48:30

Everything that needs to get stronger is going to get stronger. I mean your legs are going to get stronger, you know, at the same pace as your. You know your abs and your upper back and all that stuff that needs to be strengthened in order to. So it's all going to get stronger if you train it. But at the beginning there may be a little bit of a learning curve for people, because the limiting factor is not the legs and the hips but instead is the you know, the upper back and the ability to hold that weight. So you know, that's just that's. That's one programming consideration.

Philip Pape: 48:57

Yeah, yeah. And then there are a million ways to vary these things like um, pause squats I learned from you with the safety squat, bar or plat squats. You can really hit the quads really hard with those. One question that comes up then okay, if you've got high bar, safety bar, low bar, they're kind of clustered together. They each have their not pros and cons, but different things that you need to adapt and get stronger with the different muscle groups, like we were talking about, to put a positive spin on it. And then you shift a little bit over and people are thinking okay, in the absence of low bar squats and again shout out to Tony for this question you still want maybe to develop the part of your hip musculature that's maybe not getting hit as much with the low bar that you have it out of your program. Would you then supplement with leg press, hack squats, box squats? What's your approach to that for folks who are just not low-barring anymore?

Andy Baker: 49:41

Yeah, it all just depends on the goal. I mean, certainly, the thing that the low bar really hits well and a lot of people. Part of the reason you know it gets hit hard is because this is where a lot of the injuries occur is the adductors, which know, which is on the end, the big meat on the inside of the leg that then wraps around to the back of the of the leg and kind of attaches on the, on the underside of the pelvis, in the in the rear. A lot of people mistake uh, what is an adductor injury for a hamstring strain? Most people cause it, they, they, it the adductors. You think of them on the inside of your leg, which they are, but they're hip extensors and they go around to the back and so adductors get hit hard in a low bar squat and that is one of the most common areas where you see a bad injury on low bar squat. That's the most common bad injury on a low bar squat is a torn adductor. They hurt like a motherfucker and they take forever to heal and so but that's, that tissue is being it's being stretched a lot at the bottom and it's it's being really heavily engaged in a lot of that hip drive element from a, from a low bar squat, is coming off of a rebound, not just of the hamstrings but off of the adapters, and so that's an element that you that you somewhat lose the with other squat variations. You know I'm not a big fan of like the adapter machine or something like that. So you're you know you're losing that If I was having somebody say strictly high bar, you know I would certainly make sure and I do some of this with athletes anyways I would make sure that we're doing things like RDLs or something like that. That really hits a lot of the of of hamstring. But you know for, for that really hits a lot of the of of hamstring. But you know for for most people, just for your average guy looking to, just I'm just trying to get stronger and build muscle mass. You know the mechanical differences between high bar and low bar. Are they different? Yes, are they that different where it's just going to affect the regular guy trying to get bigger and stronger? Not, not really.

Andy Baker: 51:35

You know I I took a picture. I think I put it on my Instagram picture or video. I'm not sure how long ago it was. It feels like maybe six months ago, probably been longer, and it was a picture of me at the bottom of a low bar squat and then another side-by-side a picture of me at the bottom of a high bar squat and you can barely tell the difference right. I mean, the the back angle is slightly different. You know the every the knee angle is slightly different, but they're not that different now they are more, they are more they're they're they're more different on certain people, certain body types may may exhibit more difference between high and low bar, but, like on me there, it wasn't that, it wasn't't that different. Now it's different enough, even though to the naked eye it doesn't look that like that much.

Andy Baker: 52:21

But I can still low bar squat a lot more than I can high bar squat, even though that I train high bar now more than I do low bar. But I so there is difference in the fact that you are can squat a lot more weight. You know it's a different movement You're bringing in and the reason you can squat more weight is because you're bringing in more muscle mass into the movement. So the low bar allows you to squat that heavier weight. But even all that being said, functionally carry over to everyday life. General leg size, that sort of thing. Are you losing that much between switching from one variation to the other? Not really If you're highly competitive in a given sport.

Andy Baker: 52:57

Are you competing in powerlifting? Are you missing something by not low barring? Yes, because the whole idea in that sport is to squat as much weight as humanly possible and low bar is going to allow you to do that. If you're bodybuilding, are you missing something by exclusively low bar squatting? Yes, most likely, if that's your only variation that you're going to have in your program for your legs is a low bar squat, you know. Are you potentially missing something? My answer for most people and again this varies by anthropometry, but for most people, yeah, you're going to be missing something.

Andy Baker: 53:32

Because I know, like, for me and I was never a prolific squatter best squats I ever did was, like you know, around 550. I think I did a triple with like 535 or something like that. So not not world-class at all by not even impressive by today's standards, but not weak, um, and it's, it's definitely stronger than average. Your average guy did squat in the gym, um, but visually, you know, my quads were not developed, you know not, not really, I mean, are they bigger than the average guy that doesn't squat? Yes, but were they for somebody who had spent that much time under the bar and could squat five, 50, you would think you would see a bigger set of quads than what I had. Um, what I did have was a gigantic ass and a gigantic set of adductors. So that's so. All of my leg mass was basically I always I've made that joke a bunch of times I was all ass and adductors, but quads not so developed.

Andy Baker: 54:24

Now a guy with a slightly different build may be receiving a little bit more of that stress, you know, in his quads and it's not like my quads didn't get work. I mean they still got sore and all that kind of stuff didn't get work. I mean they still got sore and all that kind of stuff. So I know that quads are getting work, but from just a purely aesthetic standpoint of you know, like if you were competing in bodybuilding or whatever, you know, I got much more development in my quads when I started switching to predominantly high bar and safety, squat bar, squatting and less low bar, which is to be expected. You know I wasn't that strong at them when I first started, which was another indicator that they maybe weren't doing all that much work in the low bar squat relative to the posterior chain, especially the adductors, them relative. Some of that's just technique, getting used to the technique and all that. But I'm a pretty good athlete so the technique changes aren't necessarily that hard for me in the gym.

Andy Baker: 55:26

For some people it's like reinventing the wheel. I mean, if you work with guys that just aren't good athletes and aren't good natural lifters, slight changes in technique it's like, oh my God, it's like you're teaching them to, you know, a whole new sport or something. Whereas a good natural athlete can switch between a high bar and a low bar squat, no problem. But athlete or guys that aren't good natural athletes have a harder time with that kind of stuff. And that's one of the reasons, like rip talked about in the in starting strength about one of the reasons if you go back to the early earlier in starting strength, about one of the reasons if you go back to the early earlier editions of starting strength, there were some variations of the novice program which had front squatting on the middle day. So you would, you know, squat regular back squat on Mondays and Fridays and then the middle day was like a front squat and the you know the idea was to, you know, to lessen the load a little bit or whatever.

Andy Baker: 56:13

But the kind of the challenge with that is that those are two fundamentally different movement patterns. One, you're trying to teach a guy to stay bent over and drive with his hips. The other, you're trying to teach a guy to stand straight up and, you know, come straight up with the legs and almost push the hips forward and you're bad natural athletes, which a lot of your clients are going to be. If you're a coach, you're just you're not going to be always working with very gifted people. It completely confuses the movement pattern in their head. Now, if you have a guy like a college athlete or something, that's not going to happen. They're not going to be confused. Their mechanics and their proprioceptive awareness and all that that's not going to be confusing to them.

Andy Baker: 56:49

To switch between a high bar and a low bar or a front squat All three of those could be taught at the same time and they'll immediately know how to differentiate between how to do.

Andy Baker: 56:56

All three of those could be taught at the same time and they'll immediately know how to differentiate between how to do all three of those. But if you take a less talented, less gifted person and you try to teach a multiple squat variations at the very beginning. It's like you're trying to teach them three different sports at once. It totally doesn't make sense in their head and they'll start trying to do low bar stuff on their front squats and front squats on their low bar and it's a mess in their head. Bar stuff on their front squats and front squats on their low bar, and it's just it's a mess in their head. So that's just something that you learn as a coach and something that Rip identified pretty early of let's not confuse the average non-athletic person with too many different cues for too many similar movements, Cause it just muddies the water for them a little bit.

Philip Pape: 57:30

Yeah, there's a lot there, eddie, a lot there, eddie, but yeah.

Andy Baker: 57:35

That's what I do, I do. I stream of consciousness.

Philip Pape: 57:37

So no, no, it's all good. I'm trying to figure out what to follow up on Cause I know you asked something.

Andy Baker: 57:42

I know you asked something about leg presses and hack squats, but I don't remember now.

Philip Pape: 57:45

You covered it, you covered it. You always cover it in your own way, which is good. So I feel like to listen to you. But but developing those movement patterns I mean the, the, the low bar squats technical enough, like you said, for a beginner to not have to throw in yet another thing to learn. And but then going back to the argument of variation, I mean again, you talked about not only strength but size. We know a lot of strong guys who don't necessarily have the most well-rounded physique, or maybe it's asymmetric, if you want to use that term, like you said, ass and adductors, and what are the things you work with when you coach and in the club and everything else is the everyday Joe who wants to be strong but also look good. Yeah, there are guys who want to push their lifts. We also want to, you know, look healthy and have decent physique.

Andy Baker: 58:26

Yeah, I just call it. You know, small B bodybuilders you know, not competitive, not not up on stage with the spray tan and all that, but basically training for as much muscle mass you know as possible so that it to maximize their, their physique, for their, for their genetics, within reason.

Philip Pape: 58:43

Right, which closes the loop on the whole discussion of squatting being one, one type being superior or not. It really depends. And, like you said, if you're a power lifter, olympic lifter or something, it's going to be one thing, something that's going to be one thing. If you're an everyday guy that's trying to be well-rounded, enjoy the variety. Like I think there's a fun, you know, mental aspect to getting to try all of these things. Um, and even, you know, using blocks and periods to kind of go through one. You know, if you want to do five, three, one and stick with one lift for a while but then vary the reps, great. Then you go to the bodybuilding for a while. Maybe try that. You know it's good stuff. Andy, I know we don't have a lot of time left. Are you open to some rapid fire questions about this topic? And by rapid fire we can keep the answers a little shorter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine, I'll try to time myself.

Andy Baker: 59:24

No, no, no, it's cool. The problem is is, once a thought gets into my head, if I don't say it, I'll lose it.

Philip Pape: 59:38

It doesn't come to say so all right. So what's the most underrated variation of squat in your opinion?

Andy Baker: 59:44

Oh, you know what I'm going to say here? The 14 inch camber bar squat. Okay, the rackable camber bar for that. So, that's the, the, the curved. No, no, no, that's like I call that the. Well, yeah, different people call it. That's like a Buffalo bar, which is like the, the, the Duffalo bar, whatever they call it, like the the curved bar, where the the it's the 14 inches the weights are basically sitting at, like hip level um, when you're standing there.

Andy Baker: 1:00:15

That is a hard version, but that is a um. That is a great version to squat with. Um. I think it's very underrated for quad development and the reason I say that is because it's similar to a front squat, which is it doesn't look anything like a front squat but the weight tends to swing out a little bit in front of you, kind of like where the bar would sit if you were front squatting it. You have to keep a more vertical torso and you can't really hip drive on that. You can cheat a little hip drive into a like.

Andy Baker: 1:00:48

So a guy that's, let's say, just trying to work his quads right, I little hip drive into a high like. So a guy that's, let's say, just trying to work his quads right I have to watch this because of my bill. When I'm just trying to really work my quads, when I'm not trying to, there's a difference between working your quads and trying to squat a heavy weight right. So when I'm trying to squat a heavy weight, I'm going to introduce techniques and squat with leverages that allow me to squat the most weight. So that's going to be low bar and I'm going to introduce a lot of hip drive into that movement. If I'm trying to work my quads, I'm going to high bar or safety squat bar or camber bar or something like that and I'm going to intentionally try to reduce the amount of hip drive that I get into that movement, because that is the reason you hip drive is to recruit hamstrings and glutes and such into the movement and I'm trying to not do that.

Andy Baker: 1:01:30

The camber bar does not allow you to hip drive very much. What will happen if you try it is your hips keep going up but the bar just sits there. But you really have to drive straight up through the bar and you have to keep a more vertical torso, kind of like with a front squat. But where the bar sits it's so much more comfortable. It's not like a front squat where the whole time you're fucking fighting that rack position. Or if you're doing it like I do with straps, you're battling with the straps or moving around. And if you don't have the mobility to do a really, really good front squat, then they're a challenge constantly because of the rack position and then it makes them not a great quad developer because the limiting factor is your just ability to hold the weight, whereas the Cambridge bar doesn't have that. It's very, very comfortable to hold.

Andy Baker: 1:02:16

People talk about the instability of it and all that, but I think that I haven't really. Unless you're using shitty form or whatever, the weight doesn't really swing that much. So it does sit comfortably on your back, but it keeps a lot of pressure just on the quads. And every time I do that movement which is not very often, because the bar is a pain in the ass to go get it's 85 pounds. It's hard to carry across the gym and I'm lazy, so I often pick a variation based on how the rack is already set up. So it's like, if safety squat bar is sitting in the rack already on the J hooks, I'm like, oh, I'm safety squat bar squatting today. If the high bar, if the bar bell's in there, yeah, so I'm, I'm all about like, so it's, it's um, but every time I do that lift I'm like why don't I do this more, Like this, like I, like my quads are so pumped and particular where you'll feel it is right, in that area of the quads that is the hardest to develop for most people, which is that, that area, the lowest part of the quads.

Andy Baker: 1:03:20

Okay, the most, the most distal area of the quads, right above, like the knee, which is the part you know if you're training for aesthetics and you're wearing shorts or whatever. That's the part that's visible Right and like you can have big quads. But when that area is like you have turnip quads, so that the quads are really big up top by the hips but small above the knee, you can't really tell that you have jacked quads right. But when you get done with a set on that camber bar, that specific area of the quads is just lit up and I'm like I don't know why I don't do those more and I don't know why I don't prescribe them more to more of my clients that have access to that bar, because it's a very, very underrated tool for quad hypertrophy I think.

Philip Pape: 1:03:57

Well, it's been a while since I got a new bar, so because I've looked at the transformer bar for years, it's just so expensive and it probably gives you something similar, maybe with, depending on which.

Andy Baker: 1:04:12

The cambered bar is the easiest on the shoulders. It is absolutely the easiest bar to squat with on the shoulders because your hands are at your sides. Your hands sit at your side, so it's really, really easy.

Carol: 1:04:20

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Philip Pape: 1:05:00

So my next two questions. I think you answered them Best. Variation for quad development Sounds like you like that one for quads.

Andy Baker: 1:05:06

I can't say it's the best. It's definitely unique. It's definitely unique enough to potentially integrate for just for the just for its own sake. It's hard to say what's best, and that's true with any exercise, because you're always trying to find that sweet spot, kind of that nexus between load and the range of motion of the muscle that you're trying to target right, so you can stimulate a muscle really really well with certain exercises, but that just you just don't have the capacity to really load those exercises well, which makes them, you know, not as good.

Andy Baker: 1:05:42

It's kind of like a bench press versus a cable fly. Like a cable fly does it? Does it hit the chest really? Or let's see either. The better example is like an overhead press and a lateral raise. Right, a lateral raise is a good exercise, like it. It hits the side delts really, really hard. What's the problem with it? There You're going to have an inability to load that movement over time, right, and so you can only. So you need to find movements that both stimulate the muscle really really well but that also allow you to progressively load them into the heaviest weights, and so that can be a little bit.

Andy Baker: 1:06:18

That's like the low bar versus high bar thing, right? Yeah, do low bar allow you to use more weight? Yes, are your quads doing more work? Not necessarily Because, yes, you're using more weight weight, but not all of that weight is being done by the quads. You know you're doing. A good portion of that extra load that you're using is adductors, hamstrings, glutes, whatever. So for again, for the beginner, that's appropriate, but for a guy with a very narrow focus in that training session of I'm just trying to apply stress to grow my quads, you know is is a low bar better just because I can squat more weight? Not necessarily, because not all that weight's being done by the quads. You know it's being done with a lot of others. So maybe a high bar is better from that standpoint because, yes, it's using less weight but much more, a higher percentage of that weight, is actually being lifted with the quads.

Philip Pape: 1:07:09

Would you if you, if you had to rank just for quads being lifted with the quads? Would you if you, if you had to rank just for quads? You know, and would you even throw the leg press in there, or hack, squat, or you know a pause variation like which one would if you had to pick one? You know, hack squat.

Andy Baker: 1:07:22

Yeah, I mean of all variations are just like non-barbell stuff um squatting variations.

Philip Pape: 1:07:29

If I had a, if I had a gun to my head and they said A Texas six shooter.

Andy Baker: 1:07:36

You have to go into this bodybuilding contest in 12 weeks and your success or failure will be dependent on the size of your quads. I love these analogies because it will. If you can be honest with yourself, what would you do? I would live and die on the hack squat. Yeah, I think it has probably more more capacity than anything. Talking about strictly quad hypertrophy, it's, it's hard to beat a hack squat. You know there's some downsides to hack squats but, um, in terms of just strictly the hypertrophy of the quads, it's, there's nothing else involved in that movement, which is a downside for a strength athlete who actually does want other muscles involved in that movement low on the platform, narrow ass to grass, full range of motion, slight pause at the bottom is very, very hard to beat that and you can load them super, super heavy, um yep which.

Andy Baker: 1:08:40

So it's very hard to make an argument against a hack squat for just pure quad hypertrophy cool hack squat.

Philip Pape: 1:08:47

I'm saving up for one of those machines at home because those things are damn expensive they are and they and they're good, and don't get a cheap one because they're not worth it. Right, so right right, no, yeah, for sure. So what's the? What's the most common squat mistake that you see?

Andy Baker: 1:09:00

oh, not understanding that relationship between barbell and midfoot. You know they did they, and so they're making changes to the squat without understanding how the changes to the squat are affecting that relationship. And that's the one thing that really can't be compromised with. If you're talking about doing a good, you know there's areas for compromise in all different aspects of the barbell squat. But the one area that really doesn't have any room for compromise not if you're squatting heavy, if you're squatting light, I guess it doesn't probably doesn't matter as much, but that that that barbell has to remain over midfoot and a lot of the changes and manipulations that people make, they do so without understanding how those changes are going to affect that relationship. And so you need to understand the model of a squat from a big picture view and understanding.

Andy Baker: 1:09:51

Okay, when I move the bar up my back, how does that going to affect my torso, my torso angle? You know my back angle. If I move the bar lower on my back, how's that going to affect my, my back angle? You know that sort of thing and and you know, and so if you don't, if you don't understand those, then it may. It makes it harder to make technique adjustments to yourself. So I think that's. I still see that. I see that with some of the guys in the club sometimes, and I'm surprised that I see it because they're like well, I switched to high bar and what they mean by that is well, I just moved the bar two inches up my back, but I changed nothing else.

Andy Baker: 1:10:26

You tried to do everything else the same way and if you think of the balance point, of what is your midfoot, that's a very small area, and so if you're changing the bar on your back by several inches, you're changing that relationship significantly and on a very heavy weight.

Andy Baker: 1:10:44

You're going to find yourself in trouble If you've got the bar and high bar and you're keeping the exact same back angle and you're trying to hip drive out of the bottom and all that. So if you say I'm going to switch to high bar but then you change nothing else, you're kind of in trouble. And the same thing for a guy that wants to try low bar, that you know wants to switch to low bar and then tries to keep all the rest of the mechanics exactly the same, is he's going to have trouble with that squat. It's not going to feel natural to it.

Philip Pape: 1:11:09

Two things about this. First is, like I liked that your answer was a principle as opposed to a tactic, cause I think you know a lot of the answers about a common mistake would be foot stance or some specific tactic, and, like you said, it comes down to the principle from which all potential mistakes derive for every individual. But then, um, would you recommend some sort of like mind body exercise where and I'll tell you from personal experience, trying to find the right position for my shoulder in one session I remember trying like eight different positions for the bar and loading it just so I could see the difference, and that actually taught me a lot just in that moment, something I'd never done before about the differences. Would have you done something like that or recommend it?

Philip Pape: 1:11:49

in terms of, in terms of just like learning, just a learning learning thing, just to understand the midfoot out of the context of just one type of squat, but actually being able to translate it across the different ones, it kind of depends because people are different types of learners.

Andy Baker: 1:12:03

Okay, so some people are going to learn really well by seeing it. Like seeing the diagram, like what they have in starting strength, like seeing the seeing the diagram of the guy squatting from a profile and seeing the line drawn down from the end of the barbell, you know, to the mid point on his foot and seeing how a change in back angle would affect that. Like some people will see that and it will translate. Like they'll understand that and can get it to translate immediately. Like once they understand it intellectually, they can get it to translate on the gym floor. And some people may understand it intellectually and not get it to translate on the gym floor because they're smart but bad athletes. And some people can have it very roughly explained to them and can feel it when it's right and feel it when it's not right. And those are usually your good athletes. Your good athletes don't require a whole lot of instruction. They feel what's right. Naturally, they pick up things on their own with just verbal cues Okay, move the bar a little bit down your back, tighten up your shoulders. Now, when I want you to go down, I want you to lean over just a little bit more, and they understand exactly what that means and they do it perfectly with just a short verbal instruction. So it kind of depends on what type of learner you are. So a lot of I mean.

Andy Baker: 1:13:24

Eventually you have to learn by being under the bar and you have to learn what that feels like and you have to use enough load to where a mistake. You can feel it. If the weight is too light, a lot of people can't like. An empty bar is not enough weight for people to learn with because they don't feel the mistake. If you're a let's say you're a 225 squatter, you're likely not and you're saying I'm trying to work on technique with the. I'm going to go in the gym today with just the bar and I'm going to work on technique. That's not going to work because 45 pounds is not enough weight for you to feel your mistake. You need to feel how wrong it is when you lean over too much and get the bar out over your toes. You can take an empty bar and put the bar out over your toes and you're not going to feel it. You can maybe put 135 on your back and lean over too far and have the bar four to mid toes and you're not going to feel it. You can maybe put 135 on your back and lean over too far and have the bar four to midfoot and not feel it. So you got to have enough load. That's why we're always we're not just when we talk about like we kind of make fun of, like I'm going to have a technique day and I'm just going to do like really lightweight work on technique. We're not just shitting on it Like, oh, you're a pussy or it's not that. It's that. No, it really is not technique training.

Andy Baker: 1:14:35

If you're going with really lightweights, the weight, in order for the technique to be trained, it has to be done with a heavy enough weight for you to really integrate it and really understand what a good rep versus a bad rep feels like.

Andy Baker: 1:14:48

And that's the same in any sport. I mean, if you're trying to teach somebody how to hit, yeah, there's things that you can do, little drills you can do to work on certain things. But if you're not swinging that bat full speed, you know it's not going to be integrated into the mechanics. You know, because doing doing things slow in sport or doing things very light in the gym is not really technique work, because the technique involves the load. That's a part of it and it's, and that lifter barbell system and its relationship to the center of mass and and your balance point over your middle of the foot changes with load. You know. So that that center of mass is not the same at 135 as it is with 315. So you're not really working technique when you're going with very light weights. So it's, if you're going to work technique, it has to be heavy enough for you to actually feel a mistake yeah, fair point.

Philip Pape: 1:15:45

I only asked because it was an accidental thing that I had put myself in, because I couldn't get into a position right and and I was already fairly loaded up after because, like you said, during the warmup you don't even notice Right, and then it starts to hit you and you're like, wait a minute, this isn't quite going to work. Let me shift it. And I noticed from three different variations back to back. It was just a little revelation for me. I'm not, that's how I was curious about that but if, but of course you're going to get fatigued if it's loaded up too.

Andy Baker: 1:16:12

Right, that's true too. Yeah, and there is. I mean, there's always room for self-experimentation with that kind of stuff and you learn. I mean, dave Tate has this kind of philosophy and I somewhat agree with it. I definitely see his point and I somewhat disagree with it. But he's like everybody needs to work without a coach for two years.

Andy Baker: 1:16:35

And there's some value to that, because if you're just having somebody walk you through everything all the time, you kind of it's like think about it. Like when I'm driving somewhere, if I'm sitting shotgun and a buddy of mine or an uncle or somebody else is driving out and we're driving out to a hunting property, going out in the middle of nowhere, if I'm sitting shotgun I can never tell you how to get, how to get to where we're at. But if I'm driving myself, I'll remember where to go and where to turn and all that kind of stuff. And it's kind of the same principle of you know, when you're always the passenger which sometimes, as a client, you are because the coach is doing so much of the work and the thinking for you and he's telling you put your hands here, lean over this way, put your feet here, do this, do that. He's doing so much of the thinking for you and you're just doing it, which of course usually leads to better results in the short term.

Andy Baker: 1:17:28

But you're also not necessarily always learning why. Because I know me as a coach, I don't always explain why to all my clients. They're not necessarily interested all the time. So every time I give them a cue or a set of instructions, I don't always tell them. And this is why we're doing it right, because I got an hour with that person and it's like we got to just get the workout done and get out and they don't. Some of them care, some of them don't, and so it's kind of the same thing of like Dave's point of you know, it's not a bad idea for somebody to just train completely on their own for a number of years so that they can go through all that self-experimentation, even if maybe they don't get the best results. But they will learn some stuff better on their own by doing it on their own and then having it kind of fine-tuned with a coach.

Philip Pape: 1:18:11

Yeah, that's one way to put it, but I'm sure you've seen a situation where there's a lot of bad habits to break down, if it's been too long.

Andy Baker: 1:18:18

Yeah, and it depends. Again, it's one of those things where it depends. It depends on the person, and some people really need the coaching and they need the hand-holding and they won't figure it. They will never figure it out on their own, they just don't have the aptitude to do it. Just like I probably wouldn't figure out nuclear physics on my own right, I could probably you know what I'm saying. I could read every textbook in the world cover to cover and still not know. You know, not know anything. So it's like it's if you don't have the aptitude for something, you're probably not likely to do that well on your own without some coaching.

Philip Pape: 1:18:56

Yeah, and the whole thing about cues, that's an interesting one, because that's kind of the final thought I have here is when you talked about the mistake being people don't understand the relationship or don't take time to learn it, and then you talked about different learning styles. So you've got the on paper biomechanics and then you have trying it out. If somebody is at least starting just on their own and they haven't had a coach yet, what's maybe I don't know if it's a cue is the right thing to ask you about, but something that they should be thinking about tactically to make sure that they're tying it to the midfoot model. You know, cause just to say, well, put it over your midfoot isn't going to work for everyone.

Andy Baker: 1:19:29

No, it doesn't work. I mean, even with an experienced lifter, I don't ever say get over the midfoot.

Philip Pape: 1:19:35

Right, that's not the actual cue Right.

Andy Baker: 1:19:37

So I will tell them something to put them over the midfoot.

Andy Baker: 1:19:41

So I may say uh, you know, I may say something like you know you're on your toes, or something which they're usually not on their toes.

Andy Baker: 1:19:48

But I'll see, you know, I'll see their heels start to slightly lift off the ground right, so they're starting to carry too much weight on the balls of their feet which is going to shift everything forward of midfoot. So I'll say, you know, I may say back on the heels or get off your toes or whatever. And again, the thing with cueing and we talk about this in the seminars is it's cueing becomes a very intimate language between the coach and the client, and the same cue may not work for one person the way that it does for others. And that's part of your role as a coach of people is understanding. What word or phrase am I going to say to this person that effectively reminds them? And it doesn't matter what, it is right. So it's just like when you're trying to teach people to set their back on a deadlift. With some people you say set your back harder. The next person you say lift your chest more. You're trying to get two people to do the same, but for the one person, telling them to set their back doesn't cue anything. So you tell them to lift their chest and it does. But then for the next guy, if you tell them to lift their chest, they so you tell them to lift their chest and it does. But then for the next guy, if you tell them to lift their chest, they don't set their back, they drop their hips. So you don't use that cue with that guy, but you do use it for the other guy. So you're trying to get the same result, which is, I'm trying to get both of those guys to flatten their back out, but I'm using two different phrases between each lifter because I know, for whatever reason, one clicks with one guy and not the other guy. So the same thing would work on a squat when you're trying to get somebody back over, say midfoot or whatever it might say.

Andy Baker: 1:21:16

I may tell a guy you can get back on your heels. Well, I don't really want him on his heels, I want him off of his toes, right, and some people bond better to negative versus positive. So get off your toes versus get on your heels. One's a positive, positive, one's a negative. One is stop doing this, the other is start doing this right. So some people interpret positive versus negative a little bit differently. You know it may be.

Andy Baker: 1:21:43

It may be if he's leaning over too much, if his back angle is starting to drift too far down, I may tell him chest up, you know that's getting him over midfoot. You know, because I don't want to, I don't want the bar him leaning over too much more to where the bar starts to drift forward to midfoot. So I'm telling him chest up more to get the barbell back centered over midfoot. So the chest up cue is a midfoot cue, it's just. I'm not telling him get over midfoot because it's not necessarily specific enough. It's too, it's too zoomed out. You need something more specific in that instance to get him midfoot.

Andy Baker: 1:22:17

So, um, and not every cue is about getting them onto the midfoot. There's other things. You can fuck up in a squat, you know, knees out. Knees out can get people back over midfoot.

Andy Baker: 1:22:27

Because if a guy's knees are drifting forward too much as they squat down or they're having a lot of knee slide at the bottom, that will pull that whole lifter barbell system forward a little bit and can get them off the midfoot.

Andy Baker: 1:22:39

So I may cue them knees out more.

Andy Baker: 1:22:41

You know I want them to shove their knees out more as they're descending and, and that cue is and knees out fixes a number of different things sometimes, but one of the things it may do is help them get back over midfoot better. So that cue it's just I'm chewing these out in order to help get them back over midfoot, among maybe a couple of other things too. But that's so. You just have to find the language between you and your lifter as a coach that's going to resonate with them in real time, and that's really all that queing is is what is real time instruction that I can give them while they're performing the movement that gets them to do what I want them to do under the bar. And if I said purple monkey dishwasher and that got them to shove their knees out and lift their chest up, then that's a good cue, right? So it doesn't matter what the cue is. As long as the lifter understands what that is and does what I want them to do in order to correct the form, then it doesn't matter.

Philip Pape: 1:23:40

Yeah, and I think it's powerful because when I learned starting strength I did it from the book. I did it on my own for several months. Then I went to see a starting strength coach here, cody Anino, here in Connecticut. Starting strength coach here, cody Anino, here in Connecticut. And within one hour you know he fixed, you know, 90% of what I was doing wrong. Right, just because of having that ability for an expert to say here's what I'm seeing and here's, here's the cue you need. You think you can cue yourself and watch yourself on video and it's just there's a block for a lot of us in getting that right until you have that expert or you join the barbell club and you post a form video and have andy uh say say exactly what he's seeing. He'll get you fixed up and it's never too late.

Andy Baker: 1:24:15

Sometimes you get the coaching. I was at a. I remember back in 2000 I don't know when it was, I was just fresh out of the military, but it was sort of in 2007 or something like that and I, my deadlift was around like 500 and I'd kind of been stuck around like in that 500 range for a long time. And I did like a 10 minute coaching session with Rip and Josh Wells in the back of a gym. They were doing a. They were with CrossFit.

Andy Baker: 1:24:42

Rip was with CrossFit still at the time and he was doing a seminar there and he had invited me out just to attend and sit in on the, on the, the lecture and such.

Andy Baker: 1:24:52

And then during like the lunchtime workout, like where the coaches lift and stuff, I I got in a workout and, um, I was doing my deadlifts and him and one of the staff coaches got me by Josh Wells, who's an excellent coach here at Houston actually, to walked over and they were watching me deadlift and I remember I don't even remember what the cue was, but Rip was, like you know, in his here do this, do this, do this, okay, pull, pull, another rep.

Andy Baker: 1:25:15

And I did it and 500 went up easy, whereas before it was like kind of a max effort. And then I threw on like 525, 530 and it popped right up. That's one little simple cue by a good coach like a Rip or a Josh Wells on a guy that's not elite but already at 500 deadlift that PR'd my lift by 25 pounds right there on the spot. So it's little things like that that even an experienced lifter who more or less knows what they're doing is not seeing in themselves or feeling themselves that a trained eye can see and fix. Right there in the moment, and in some cases instantly, you know, set a 25 pound PR.

Philip Pape: 1:25:59

If you're watching or listening, listen to what Andy has to say here, because you will be a better lifter if you take his advice. So I know we talked a lot about squatting. Is there anything else we should have covered that you're like yeah, I got to get this off my chest about squats?

Andy Baker: 1:26:16

No, not really. You know, I would just tell people to in general about their training. Kind of the way this whole conversation and this whole podcast episode started is just relax, you know, like have fun with it. Like if you can't do, yeah, if you can't do exactly what you want to do, like just relax, make small changes and then go for it as hard as you can from there and chill out about it and don't turn like there's enough stress in life where we don't need to turn our training into another form of stress. So just chill out.

Philip Pape: 1:26:43

True, it's true. And if you're like type a uptight guy like I am, it's all the more that you need to relax and chill out, cause it will definitely help's most of the guys I'm talking to I mean, that's who a lot of my clients are, and I'm not that way, they're the ones who listen to podcasts too.

Andy Baker: 1:26:56

And I'm not that way. Yeah, a type A guy is the one that's going to tune into a podcast on squat mechanics, like you know what I mean, and that's it's like not my personality, but it's written in a book or whatever drives them nuts and they wind up sucking a lot of the enjoyment out of the process but also, I think, sucking some of the results out of the process too. One of the things look around at some of the guys that are really really strong out there. Social media is not always the best place to gather information, but a lot of them are having. If you kind of watch it, just it appears from the outside they're having a lot of fun with their training. You know, and I don't think it's just because they're awesome lifters. I think the fact that they're having fun with the training sessions are just nothing but one big giant source of anxiety and stress for you. How good are you really going to be?

Philip Pape: 1:27:55

100%, 100%. Where's the live by man? Yeah, all right, where do you? I think I'm going to send people to the barbell club if you're good with that, but is there anyone else who want people to hit you up?

Andy Baker: 1:28:04

Yeah Well, to find the barbell club or one-on-one coaching or training templates or whatever else. It's all there at andybakercom. You can find everything from there.

Philip Pape: 1:28:23

All right, and those who follow me also, if you have questions about it, I'm in the club and I know a bunch of guys in there, so if you want to know what it's about, reach out Andy. Thanks again, man. It's always a pleasure. We get deep into some of this stuff and people need to know to just chillax, have fun with their training squat, however, it makes sense. There's no right, there's no wrong. Just train and get better over time, that's right. Thanks for coming on, man. All right, man, thanks, appreciate it.

The ONLY Strength Standard You Need to Progress Forever (Control Systems) | Ep 282

Get 14 days and your first challenge FREE in Wits & Weights Physique University plus a custom nutrition plan, monthly challenges, workouts, and coaching through the community. Tap on this special link for an exclusive rate for podcast listeners

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Stop chasing arbitrary strength standards and learn why progressive overload is the only metric that matters for continuous progress.

Discover how engineering Control Systems reveal the three key components that regulate your training adaptation, and why understanding them transforms your approach to building strength. 

Whether you're plateaued or just starting out, this framework will help you create sustainable progress without burnout.

Main Takeaways:

• Your body operates like a control system with built-in feedback loops

• Three components (PID control) determine training adaptation

• Progressive overload requires strategic adjustments based on data

• Small, consistent changes beat random progress chasing

Timestamps:

0:01 - Why arbitrary strength standards hold you back
2:53 - Control systems and progressive overload
8:01 - Understanding PID control for training
10:22 - Proportional control: Immediate response
13:15 - Integral control: Accumulated training effects
14:35 - Derivative control: Rate of adaptation
16:48 - Practical metrics to track
20:25 - Creating a sustainable feedback loop 

The Strength Standard That Actually Matters for Lifters

Too many lifters chase arbitrary strength standards, thinking they need to squat twice their body weight or bench two plates per side to be “strong.” But true progress isn’t about hitting some magic number—it’s about optimizing your body's adaptation process.

In this episode, we take an engineering-based approach to strength training by looking at progressive overload as a control system. When you understand how feedback loops drive long-term strength, you’ll stop spinning your wheels, avoid unnecessary plateaus, and set yourself up for consistent gains.

Why Strength Standards Are Misleading

Strength standards exist as general benchmarks, but they don’t tell you anything about your personal progress.

• Some lifters progress quickly, while others take years to hit certain numbers

• Body weight, limb length, and experience all impact how much you can lift

• Chasing external numbers without respecting your own feedback loop leads to frustration, injuries, or plateaus

Instead of trying to match someone else’s numbers, focus on what your body is telling you and adjust training accordingly.

Strength Training Is a Control System

In engineering, a control system is a feedback loop that continuously adjusts to reach a goal—like how your car’s cruise control maintains speed or how a thermostat keeps your house at the right temperature.

Your body operates the same way with strength training:

1. You apply a stimulus (lifting weights)

2. Your body adapts by building stronger muscles and neural pathways

3. You track progress and adjust the load accordingly

If you overload too fast (slamming the gas pedal instead of smoothly increasing speed), your system breaks down—bad form, stalled lifts, or even injuries.

The Three Components of Training Adaptation

To make progressive overload work efficiently, we can break it down into three key principles inspired by PID control systems (proportional, integral, and derivative control).

1. Proportional control: Small, gradual increases

Your body responds proportionally to the challenge you give it. If you add weight too fast, you’ll exceed your ability to adapt and stall out.

Instead, make small, strategic jumps based on what your body can handle:

• Beginner lifters: Increase weight each session, ideally by 2.5–5 lbs

• Intermediate lifters: Progress may be slower, so use microplates (e.g., 1.25 lb increments)

• Advanced lifters: Focus on weekly or monthly increases, plus other overload methods like more reps or volume

2. Integral control: Tracking fatigue and accumulated volume

Your body doesn’t just respond to today’s workout—it remembers the total workload from the past weeks and months.

Track these three key variables:

• Volume per exercise (sets × reps × weight)

• Total workload per muscle group

• Progression over time (across a 4–6 week cycle)

If fatigue is building faster than adaptation, you might be doing too much volume too soon and need to scale back.

3. Derivative control: Managing fatigue and recovery

Your rate of progress matters just as much as progress itself. If you push too hard too fast, fatigue builds up and stalls your progress.

Signs you need a deload or adjustment:

• Performance plateauing or declining

• Feeling drained even after rest days

• Warm-up sets feeling harder than usual

• Decreased motivation to train

The key is to preemptively manage recovery, not just react when things break down. Planned resets or deloads every 4–6 weeks keep your system running efficiently.

How to Apply This for Long-Term Gains

Forget arbitrary strength standards. Instead, create a feedback-driven system that maximizes your progress.

1. Track your performance: Log your lifts, reps, and volume so you have real data to act on

2. Make small, measured increases: Avoid ego lifting and jump weight only when your body is ready

3. Monitor biofeedback: Sleep, energy, and soreness tell you when to push or pull back

4. Use strategic recovery periods: Deloads and training waves prevent burnout and injury

5. Think long-term: Your training is a process, not a race—play the long game and build sustainable strength

Final Thoughts

Strength isn’t about hitting some number on a chart. It’s about understanding how your body adapts and managing that process like an engineer. If you get your progressive overload system dialed in, you’ll be able to make gains for years—without burning out or stalling.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Are you chasing arbitrary strength standards, constantly comparing yourself to what others can lift? Maybe you're frustrated that your squat still isn't at body weight or your bench press hasn't hit two plates yet. Here's what most lifters miss that true strength development works just like a control system. It's not about hitting random numbers. It's about creating the right feedback loop for continuous progress. Today, we're talking about why progressive overload is the only strength standard you'll ever need and how understanding control systems will transform your training forever.

Philip Pape: 0:44

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're talking about the most important principle in strength training, the one from which all others derive progressive overload, or what some people like to call progressive loading, because technically you're not overloading, but that's a different topic and we're going to look at this progressive overload or what some people like to call progressive loading because technically you're not overloading, but that's a different topic and we're going to look at this through the lens of engineering control systems. I'm surprised. I have never talked about control systems before, but here we are. A control system is a feedback mechanism that helps something, improve or maintain stability, like, for example, for example, the speed on your cruise control in your car right. Or another one I like to talk about is your thermostat Keeping your house at the perfect temperature. It's always feeding back based on what the actual temperature is, and your body has a similar system for adapting to training. And if you can understand that and tie it to this concept, it is kind of going to revolutionize how you think to getting stronger.

Philip Pape: 1:48

Now, before we get in to this episode, if you want to experience a program that applies this and all of our other principles for nutrition training mindset with scientific precision I'm just kidding, not that scientific, there's a little bit of flex in there I want you to consider joining Wits and Weights Physique University. We now have, as of the end of February, going into March, we're going to have our first monthly challenge. Every single month we're going to have a challenge in the group in addition to the custom nutrition plans, workouts, tracking tools, courses, the supportive community check-ins all of that to help you reach your strength and physique goals faster than ever. So if you want to try it free for 14 days and get your first challenge at absolutely no cost, use the special link in my show notes. That is the only way to get it. You have to click the link in the show notes to join for free for the first 14 days, wits and Weights Physique University and get to try the first challenge at no cost, and I will be unveiling what that challenge is soon. But you can join at no cost. Reach out to me if you have questions.

Philip Pape: 2:53

And now I want to get into today's topic, which is progressive overload, and we're going to cover it from a different perspective. First we're going to talk about control systems, because control systems are a really good analogy to our bodies in the context of strength training. Then we'll talk about the three components that regulate your training adaptation, and then how to apply this framework to your own training so you can get some consistent progress. Now I've talked about progressive overload before. I usually approach it in the more traditional sense, talking about increasing your weight and your reps and all of that. But today is going to be a different angle that I think you're going to appreciate.

Philip Pape: 3:31

So let's talk about control systems. These are actually everywhere in engineering. They're everywhere in your life. You don't even realize they're there. They monitor outputs, they compare them to a desired target and then they make adjustments and anything run by a computer today pretty much has a control system and that's how things can run optimally and automatically. So I mentioned the cruise control in the intro your car's cruise control very common system that we're all familiar with. It is measuring your speed on the road, it compares it to your target speed and then it adjusts the throttle. Now, of course, if you're driving a Tesla or something that has automatic driving, that is a much more advanced control system that's using sensors and cameras and everything to keep you on the road. But just back to the cruise control, you know if you go uphill it's just going to add more gas. If you go downhill, it eases off and it does it in a very smooth way. Well, generally it does. It's not jerky, it's not like over responsive. The system's always working to maintain that perfect speed.

Philip Pape: 4:29

Well, your body works the same way when it comes to building strength. When you lift weights, you create a stimulus. Your body then responds by adapting. It builds stronger muscles and more efficient neural pathways. Right, it's both neuromuscular as well as physical muscular. But here's where most lifters go wrong. They focus on arbitrary numbers instead of trying to optimize the feedback loop so that they can keep making progress.

Philip Pape: 4:55

Whether you want to call it ego lifting or just a lack of understanding very common problem, I see. If I give you a concrete example. All right, let's say you're squatting 225 pounds and then you try to jump straight to 275 pounds. What usually happens? Your system gets overloaded, your form breaks down, your reps get sloppy, you risk injury. And it doesn't even have to be that big of a jump. You may take a 10 pound jump and it's too big. It's one of the most common reasons people fail their reps common reasons people fail their reps. Then they say, hey, philip, this isn't working. Should I do a reset or take a deload? I'm like, no, you just jumped too much and you would have known not to do that if you had taken your history and your data into account. But we'll get back to that. So if you jump more than you can handle, that'd be like again in the car analogy you're slamming the accelerator instead of letting the cruise control make the smooth adjustments. And remember when you do that your car can't quite get there and then it may eventually get there, but it's basically doing it in a very jerky way that taxes the engine, your body, like a good control system needs time to process the feedback and then adapt. I mean Same idea Now progressive overload, which is the gradual increase in training demands. That's all that is right.

Philip Pape: 6:10

It's not that your body is on its own just deciding to get stronger. It is that you are pushing it to its limit and it's getting stronger. And it works just like any other well-tuned control system. You provide a stimulus, you measure the response and you make calculated adjustments. And too many lifters get caught up chasing numbers. I need to squat 315, or my buddy squats 315,. I'm only squatting 275, so I'm weak. But yeah, maybe for you you're not. I should be benching twice my body weight. Whatever. You know these strength standards and I've been asked many times before like what is considered strong? Well, it's all relative to you. Some people are super strong right out of the gate. Some people are not. Some people actually get stronger, faster than other people, and so if we use arbitrary standards, they are going to ignore how your unique system responds.

Philip Pape: 7:00

Think again about homeostasis, your body's natural tendency to maintain balance. When you train, you are disrupting that balance and then your body is going to adapt to handle future disruptions better. That's one way to put it. Another way to put it is you are shifting your homeostasis, your capacity, your peak. You're shifting it outward, you're shifting it upward and it's this beautiful feedback loop that allows you to become a different person physically, but only if you respect how the system works and lean into it properly. So that gets me to something very it's going to sound a little bit technical.

Philip Pape: 7:36

It's something we use in control systems and it's called a PID controller. I'm going to use this as an analogy for the three components of training control, but you'll I'll go back and forth so you know what I'm talking about. So don't get lost in the terminology. It's a pid controller, proportional integral derivative. Again, you don't have to know exactly what those means mean and I'm going to give you a very um kind of simplified definition of those. So it might sound complex, but your body's response to training follows the same pattern.

Philip Pape: 8:01

Let's let's just break it down First. The P. So remember PID proportional integral derivative. The P is proportional control. This is your body's immediate response to a training stimulus, like right in the moment when you lift a weight. That's challenging but manageable, meaning you can actually do it, and that includes for all the reps. So that means if you're doing a set of five, that means you lift a weight that you can get for a set of five and it's not like a max, all-out grindy set.

Philip Pape: 8:29

Your body then responds proportionally proportional. It recruits the right amount of muscle fibers, it helps you maintain proper form, right Balance, stability, all that and it helps you complete the movement successfully. A lot of this is neuromuscular. A lot of this is based on movement patterns. This is why having enough reps and enough practice and frequency is important. But the point is your body will proportionally respond.

Philip Pape: 8:55

If you, however, try to go too heavy, too fast, the system gets unstable. You're going to fail your reps or your form is going to break down. That could be the potential for injury. Your nervous system also gets overwhelmed, especially on really big lifts like deadlifts. But if you increase it just the right amount, right, just that five pounds on your bench press, or maybe it's two pounds with microplates depends on where you are your body's going to adapt perfectly. There's a nice sweet spot. It's not super wide, but it's also not so precise. You have to be down to a decimal point or anything like that. And again, I've seen this countless times with clients those who try to force huge jumps in weight inevitably are going to plateau. I don't even call it a plateau, I just it's like um, they, they feel like the program's wrong for them or it's not the right weight or not the right lift or whatever, and they immediately go to the doom and gloom. All these potential issues and, granted, if you're not sleeping enough, you're not eating enough, those could definitely be the issues. But sometimes it's just you're not increasing by the right amount or you're not taking enough rest period and you're just over. It's not only progressive overload, it's progressive way overload, okay. But if you respect this proportional ability for your body to meet the demand only up to its limits, right, and getting into that sweet spot with those small calculated increases, now you could build strength consistently for years on end. I mean years and years. So that's proportional control. Then we have integral control Remember PID proportional, integral, derivative. So integral control.

Philip Pape: 10:22

This is really looking at history. It's looking at the accumulated training over time, not like your injury history or your training or diet history over the years. This is more of the recent, like the last few days or last few weeks of training, and this is also why tracking your volume and your progression and what you're lifting and how much you're lifting really matters a lot. Okay, your body, just you know it doesn't just respond to what you're doing today. It kind of remembers the workload that you've handled over the past few days, weeks, even months. And so if you brought me someone and said, hey, write a program for them, I wouldn't know what is optimal for them unless I talk to them about what they've done recently, right? Or I would have to get them into a kind of prep, easy kind of prep phase for a few weeks just to work all the fatigue out of their system. Actually, there's a good analogy when we talk about dieting and prepping for fat loss, kind of getting the food-related calorie deficit stress out of your system similar idea. So your body kind of remembers this kind of like. You know it's like your bank account. I mean, you know, if you put $1,000 in the bank today, that's great, but if you've spent so much money the last six months that you're in a million dollars of debt, that thousand dollars isn't going to do much. So I don't know how great of analogy that was, but it came to mind. And back to training.

Philip Pape: 11:46

This is where the program, a lot of programs themselves, like in isolation, actually fall short because it's all about this individual workout, right? Hey, come buy my latest workout, like I have a workout for you. Or follow this workout on YouTube and it just says just jump right in, it's not personalized, it doesn't count for history. If, if you're going to buy a program from somebody, um, take, take my coach, andy Baker, for example. He sells templates on his, on his website, but when you download one of those templates, it's this like 20 page PDF explaining the principles behind it, and there's actually a lot of work you have to do to make it work for you. And this is not a criticism on Andy, he wouldn't mind me saying this. It's because he doesn't know where you started from and you need to figure that out as you get into the program. He's not just going to say, hey, do these exercises these days and you're done. Anybody can do that with chat GPT today. That's going to fall short and you're done. Anybody can do that with chat GPT today. That's going to fall short.

Philip Pape: 12:40

Um, the bigger picture is are you gradually increasing your volume or have you gone with too much volume recently? Are you balancing intensity and volume over different exercises, days and weeks, right, Because your body knows this, even if your mind doesn't realize it, and that's why you need um, well, I guess I'm going to get, I'm going to get to the third piece now when I talk about deloads. But that's why you have to be aware of your history when you program. So the last part is derivative control. So remember PID proportional, integral derivative Derivative control is the rate of change, so that's how quickly you're progressing or accumulating fatigue, right.

Philip Pape: 13:15

And this is why we need either deloads or we need a program that naturally incorporates resets or variety or undulation or waves or whatever it is. It doesn't have to be complicated Some are more complicated than others Some sort of cycling that is in there where you don't even need a deload necessarily, right, some programs you just design it that way and then six weeks and then you have a deload. Others it's kind of built in. You know, like I'm following a program that's based on a base strength and then peak strength, and every third week you reset slightly, but the reset is heavier than three weeks before that. So it's kind of a natural deload.

Philip Pape: 13:55

Your body has limits on how fast it can adapt, so if you're pushing too hard, too fast and the system starts to get too fatigued, you start breaking down. That's where you're going to hit a wall and you're going to keep hitting a wall until you somehow release all that tension and go at the right rate of change. So both the history of it how much have you accumulated and then also now what we're talking about is the rate of change, how fast and how hard you're going as you work through this are really important. It's like balancing all of this out is critical. So now, how do we use this knowledge to build your real-world strength, to become as strong as possible, to keep doing it without injury, to keep going and being consistent?

Philip Pape: 14:35

The first thing is to forget arbitrary strength standards. Don't worry about it, stop asking about it, stop worrying about absolute numbers and instead create a system that respects how your body actually adapts to training and you may respond differently than someone else to a certain amount of volume. You may respond differently when you're in fat loss versus when you're not, or when you're eating certain foods versus not, when you're training fasted or not, how much cardio or sports or other things you're doing outside of the lifting sessions. So, going back to our three components, if we want to apply these to real life. Let's start with proportional control. This means you're going to make small, consistent increases in either load that's, the weight on the bar and or reps. So if you're bench pressing 185 for three sets of five, you may not want to jump to 215 next week or next session. Whatever program you're following. You may want to go from 185 to 190. And if you've been doing that for a while and it's getting really, really hard, you might want to go from 190 to 192 and a half.

Philip Pape: 15:40

This is where microplates are helpful and a lot of people somehow don't even realize they exist. I shouldn't say it that way. That sounds patronizing. I should not have said that, but what I mean is a lot of people. You could sense some of my frustration here and how many times this comes up. For those of my clients listening who have benefited from me sharing microplates, who didn't know this before, I apologize if that comes across as insulting, but I guess I'm just saying I'm surprised that it's not part of the common lexicon, like so many other things.

Philip Pape: 16:10

So look for microplates which include both small fractional plates for your barbell but also plates that can go on dumbbells, and then that way you can progress in the right levels and then, as you get closer and closer to your limit, until you reduce the frequency. In other words, if you're squatting three days a week, you can only go up so so much doing that before you have to now increase once a week, right. Even if you're squatting three times a week, you may only go up once a week, for example, right. So it's got to depend on what level of training you're at. So that's proportional controls, those small, consistent increases.

Philip Pape: 16:48

If you're a beginner, I definitely love focusing on increasing load, and then, as you become more advanced, you can learn how to increase on reps as well, or back and forth load reps, depending on what you're working on. For integral control remember, this is the one based on accumulated fatigue you're going to want to track three metrics. The first one is your volume per exercise. This is sets times reps. It could be times weight as well, so that's called tonnage, but even sets times reps, just the volume per exercise, okay. And then number two is the volume per muscle group, because that way you can see how many sets you're doing per muscle group, which will also tell you maybe you're not doing enough, depending on what your goals are and then your overall training load across your what some people call mesocycle or a block like a four to six week block. What's your overall load? And there's some cool apps that do this as well.

Philip Pape: 17:42

If you're into that, like I use Boostcamp. You could find a link to that below in the show notes. But with Boostcamp you could actually see a graph of your volume over time. So the program I'm following you'll see it go up for three weeks and then drop, and then go up for three weeks and drop. So that can be really helpful for those who are trying to make sure that you're in the sweet spot. Now, if you're following a, if you have a personal trainer or you're following a really good coach or using one of the programs like that are already in Boost Camp, for example they're probably already set up to give you a reasonable volume.

Philip Pape: 18:13

But you need to know hey, I'm feeling really fatigued, do I have too much volume? Well, you don't know that unless you track it, and a lot of people don't track this stuff. I'll tell you, even in my lifting community, with all the buddies that lift, that I know a lot of them don't really think about volume. A lot of them are following lower volume programs anyway. You may not have enough volume, though, for what you're trying to achieve, or you may have too much, and it depends on what phase you're into. You may have to drop the volume, for example. So tracking, that's the only way you're going to know, right, that you're progressively overloading without overwhelming your system.

Philip Pape: 18:47

And then the last piece, the derivative control. This is more. How do you know, do you need recovery or deload, unless you've already built it in, which I talked about earlier, which is a really smart strategy. Just build it in and be proactive. But I want you to be tracking your biofeedback. How's your sleep quality? How is your recovery? I mean, are your warmup sets feeling smooth? Are you feeling kind of wiped out right from the beginning? Is your overall performance trending up or down? How is your motivation? How is your energy right? All of that is important and, again, it may indicate a problem with your diet, with your carbs, with your meal timing, something else like with your sleep, with your stress. But as long as you have the information, you can then start digging into the why behind them. And these indicators are great because they tell you whether you're adapting optimally or you need to adjust something. Of course you can use aura rings, you can use your Apple Watch, and those all have different measures of stress and resilience. It's all good stuff, just make sure you're correlating it with what you're doing.

Philip Pape: 19:40

So the key to all of this? To progressive overload and notice. I'm just talking principles here. This one principle is going to translate to everything else. It is even more important than, for example, mechanical tension. Right, we talk about mechanical tension being the driver of hypertrophy and muscle mass, but I've never seen a really good lifter not also progress by virtue of using mechanical tension. Thus it's sort of a secondary principle, if you will. As long as you're progressing, that tells you you're doing the right things. Now you may have to uncover what things you need to do right to get to proper progressive overload. That's a whole different deep dive. So the sustainable feedback loop is pretty cool once you've implemented it. It makes you a lifter, it makes you confident, it helps you get progress.

Philip Pape: 20:25

So I have a client who made progress on a beginning style three by five style program, kind of like starting strength with some modifications right, and she made progress for a while and then she started to move into an intermediate program and started to stall a little bit and get frustrated and asked her are you progressing on all of your accessory movements? She's like, yeah, all of that's coming straight up. I said, okay, then there's something going on with the main lifts in one of these three areas we're talking about here that we're off on. We're either not increasing the right levels right, we we are, we have too much fatigue. I don't think that's the issue in this case, but you know, could always be that I think it's more the proportional control. We're not necessarily going up in the right levels. Something's off in the way we're progressing. If she's able to progress all this other stuff, you know it could be a form issue or something as well. All right, so you know.

Philip Pape: 21:11

What do you do here for this system? Just to recap, you're going to monitor performance through consistent tracking, so you have the data to act on. You're going to make small strategic adjustments based on your data. You're going to have adequate recovery between training sessions, between sets and across your whole block of training and you're going to repeat this while gradually increasing demands over time as your capacity increases and then, when all of this works well, you're going to notice consistent strength gains without plateaus. They're going to be very infrequent and usually for other reasons, or usually because you've just gone, you've overreached just a little bit. You're going to have better recovery between sessions. You're probably going to have fewer aches and pains, lower likelihood of injury and more predictable progress, like you can forecast.

Philip Pape: 21:55

Okay, six months. I want to. I want my deadlift to be here and I know I have a pretty good confidence I can get there now that I've gotten a predictable process in place. And that's how you build lasting strength without burnout or injury. Right, it's not as exciting as chasing big numbers every session, but it's far more effective and efficient in the long run. That's what we're all about, right?

Philip Pape: 22:16

What's what's fascinating about all this is, once you understand this control your body is a control system. It has these feedback loops you realize that progressive overload really isn't about just adding weight to the bar. Right, it's actually about optimizing your body's adaptation mechanisms, your adaptation mechanisms. The weight on the bar is just a method to get there right. And then that framework can apply to any fitness goal, from fat loss to muscle gain. They're all adaptations. So then you're not just building strength, you're becoming guess what an engineer of your own physique.

Philip Pape: 22:52

That is what we do on this show. That is the point. When you stop chasing arbitrary numbers of any of this stuff and you start treating training, nutrition, mental growth, all of it, relationships like the sophisticated control system, it is, I mean, your body. When it comes to training, everything changes. Your progress becomes more consistent, more predictable and, ultimately, more sustainable. All right, and again, if you want to apply these principles to your training, join us in Wits and Weights Physique University.

Philip Pape: 23:23

I'm going to give you a secret link in the show notes, and I didn't mention it earlier, but in addition to the 14-day free trial, in addition to a free challenge, you are going to get a discounted rate from what is publicly available. It is a rate that I am testing with new clients. Keep it a secret. Well, I know the millions of people listening to the show won't but hearty heart, okay. Anyway, back in the physique university.

Philip Pape: 23:49

You know we use this approach, this kind of very logical, objective, efficient, confident building approach, to help you build strength and muscle and also tackle your nutrition Nutrition is a huge part of it To make this sustainable, to stay injury-free, to get the confidence in the wins constantly. So click the link in my show notes for the 14-day free trial, the free challenge, the secret discounted price. And remember, smart training beats random progress. Chasing every time, every single time, all right until next time. Keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your body is the most sophisticated control system you'll ever work with, so learn how to use it. This is Philip Pape. You've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Is Allulose the New GLP-1 Alternative to Weight Loss Drugs? | Ep 281

Submit your nutrition and training questions at witsandweights.com/question to get featured on the show

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Discover how a natural sugar called allulose is getting attention for potentially offering similar metabolic benefits as modern weight loss drugs by stimulating GLP-1. 

Learn the science behind how this unique compound affects blood sugar, appetite, and fat loss through natural pathways.

Main Takeaways:

• Allulose stimulates GLP-1 more modestly than medications, working with natural body rhythms

• Research shows up to 50% reduction in post-meal blood sugar spikes

• Practical dosing starts at 5-10g per serving, best taken with meals

• May help with transitioning off GLP-1 medications while maintaining results

• Shows promise for preserving muscle glycogen during training

Timestamps:

4:00 - What is allulose and how it differs from regular sugar
5:17 - Key research findings and real-world uses
8:24 - Practical dosing guidelines and timing considerations
10:05 - Benefits and potential side effects

Is Allulose a Natural Alternative to GLP-1 Weight Loss Drugs?

GLP-1 medications like Ozempic and Mounjaro have dominated the weight loss conversation, but what if a naturally occurring sugar could offer similar metabolic benefits? Enter allulose, a rare sugar gaining traction for its potential effects on blood sugar control, appetite regulation, and fat metabolism—all without the side effects or cost of pharmaceutical interventions.

This isn’t just another sugar substitute. Allulose has been shown to stimulate GLP-1, the same hormone targeted by modern weight loss drugs, while behaving more like fiber than sugar in the body. But is it really a viable tool for fat loss and metabolic health? Let's break down the science, practical applications, and how lifters and dieters alike might benefit from this unique compound.

What Is Allulose and How Does It Work?

Allulose is classified as a rare sugar because it naturally occurs in small amounts in foods like figs, raisins, and maple syrup. Structurally, it resembles fructose, but it’s metabolized differently:

• 90% is excreted in urine, meaning it provides almost no usable energy.

• It doesn’t spike blood sugar or insulin levels, unlike traditional sugars.

• It triggers metabolic pathways, including GLP-1, that regulate blood sugar and appetite.

The most compelling aspect of allulose is its ability to stimulate GLP-1, a hormone that slows gastric emptying, reduces hunger, and improves insulin sensitivity. While allulose doesn’t act as powerfully as GLP-1 drugs, its effects align with how the body naturally regulates energy balance, making it an interesting potential tool for those managing blood sugar or working on fat loss.

What Does the Science Say?

Research on allulose is still emerging, but here’s what we know so far:

1. Allulose Can Reduce Blood Sugar Spikes

A 2018 Nature Communications study found that when participants consumed allulose with a meal, their post-meal blood sugar was up to 50% lower. Unlike artificial sweeteners, which often just replace sugar, allulose actively improves carbohydrate metabolism, making it potentially useful for those with insulin resistance or prediabetes.

2. Appetite and Fat Loss Benefits

Animal studies have shown that allulose supplementation:

• Reduces appetite by increasing GLP-1 secretion

• Enhances insulin sensitivity

• Improves fat oxidation, leading to lower fat accumulation

While human data is limited, some physicians, like Dr. Charles Cavo, have reported using allulose to help patients transition off GLP-1 medications without experiencing rebound weight gain.

3. Potential Benefits for Lifters and Athletes

For those who train, allulose might offer glycogen-sparing effects, helping preserve energy stores during workouts. While this research is early-stage, it raises interesting possibilities for endurance athletes and those in cutting phases.

How to Use Allulose for Fat Loss and Metabolic Health

1. Start with the Right Dose

Most studies suggest 5-10 grams per serving, increasing up to 15-20 grams if well tolerated. Unlike artificial sweeteners, allulose doesn’t cause blood sugar spikes, but consuming too much at once may cause digestive discomfort (similar to sugar alcohols).

2. Use It Strategically with Meals

Since allulose improves carbohydrate metabolism, the best time to use it is with meals containing carbs. For those managing blood sugar, this could be a simple way to blunt post-meal glucose spikes without eliminating carbs altogether.

3. Incorporate It into Cooking and Baking

Unlike many sugar substitutes that taste artificial or don’t behave like sugar in recipes, allulose caramelizes, browns, and blends seamlessly into foods. You’ll already find it in products like Quest bars, Magic Spoon cereal, and various protein snacks.

Should You Add Allulose to Your Diet?

Allulose isn’t a magic bullet, but it’s a compelling tool for fat loss, blood sugar control, and metabolic health. Unlike GLP-1 drugs, it works within the body’s natural hormonal pathways, making it a low-risk, accessible option for those looking to optimize their diet.

That said, it’s not necessary for results. If you’re already eating balanced meals with protein and fiber, lifting weights, and managing calories effectively, you don’t need allulose to lose fat. But if you want to experiment with a metabolically friendly sweetener that does more than just replace sugar, it’s worth trying.

Final Thoughts

Allulose is more than just another sugar alternative—it’s a functional ingredient that may improve metabolic flexibility, appetite control, and carbohydrate processing. Whether you’re looking to transition off GLP-1 medications, optimize fat loss, or simply find a better way to satisfy your sweet tooth, allulose offers an intriguing evidence-based approach.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You've probably heard about the GLP-1 medications, like Ozempic, transforming the weight loss industry, but what if I told you there is a natural sugar that stimulates the same pathway, a sugar that can help control blood sugar, reduce appetite and might enhance fat loss? Today we're uncovering the science behind allulose, a rare sugar that's getting attention for potentially offering some of the metabolic benefits of the modern weight loss drugs without the side effects or the cost. You'll discover how this molecule works, what the research shows about its effects on GLP-1 and metabolism, and whether it could be a useful tool in your fat loss toolbox. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to look at allulose. It is a unique sweetener that is generating some news, some buzz, for potentially offering some similar metabolic benefits as modern weight loss medications, but through natural pathways. And the timing couldn't be more relevant, because the GLP-1 drugs like Ozembic and Monjaro have exploded on the scene. They're being talked about all the time, as am I, and they're changing how we think about weight management, fat loss, lifestyle combined with these drugs, understanding alternatives, and it's really cool to have something that might work through similar pathways. That's more of a natural approach, not as a replacement for medication. Again, that is outside my scope. You work with your medical professional. If you have a prescribed need for med, so be it. We're not going to talk about that today, but what makes this topic fascinating is how a natural sugar might actually help control blood sugar and appetite rather than spike it, although, again, we're not going to fear monger over spikes in blood sugar. It's totally natural when you eat any form of carbohydrates that have glucose. It's more of using this for specific mechanisms that are similar to the GLP-1 agonist, and the science behind this shows some insights into our metabolism that go beyond just finding another sugar substitute. So I definitely want you to stick around to hear the more in-depth findings when we get into them.

Philip Pape: 2:21

I want to give a special shout out to Michael Kay, one of our longtime listeners. He's a fellow coach. He and I talk all the time over uh, over DMS, and he brought this research to my attention, so I definitely want to give you a shout out, michael. Uh, you have definitely a commitment to evidence-based nutrition. I know you are always reviewing the studies. You have Google alerts and stuff set up and you shared this with me, so now I can share it with the audience and help make this show what it is, but also help people learn and apply this to their lives.

Philip Pape: 2:50

All right, before we get into the science of allulose, I have a quick favor to ask If you've been enjoying these evidence-based deep dives, these Monday deep dives into nutrition, physique optimization, all of it. Take a moment and submit a question so that I can answer it and turn it into a podcast episode. I'm going to give you a specific reply anyway, a personal reply, and then I very likely will turn it into an episode and give you a shout out. Go to witsandweightscom slash question or click the link in the show notes witsandweightscom slash question. And that will continue to shape the topics that we cover and ensure we cover what matters to you most.

Philip Pape: 3:28

Now let's build our mental muscle by getting into today's topic. Let's start by understanding exactly what allulose is, and I'll never forget when I first learned about this compound, because I saw it as an ingredient on, I think, some sort of Quest bar. I'll say a sweeter version of the Quest bar. Oh man, what was it called? You guys probably even know what it is. I should have looked that up. And you know I was skeptical because I didn't know what it was, and we've all heard claims about miracle sweeteners and all these brand new artificial sweeteners.

Philip Pape: 4:00

But allulose is fundamentally different. When I started to look into it, it is what we call a rare sugar, because it does exist naturally in foods like figs and maple syrup, but it's in tiny amounts. And while it's structurally almost identical to fructose, which is just regular sugar from fruit, our bodies handle it differently. Our bodies handle it differently. Instead of being converted to energy, like regular sugar, around 90% of allulose gets eliminated in your urine, so you only absorb 10% of it, meaning 10% of the calories, and during its journey through our system it triggers some metabolic effects and this is what I want to cover today that I wasn't aware of.

Philip Pape: 4:41

The most intriguing of those is the ability to stimulate GLP-1, which is the same hormone targeted by the weight loss medications like Gozembek and Manjaro. Now I want to be crystal clear here. I'm not suggesting allulose is equivalent to these medications. The GLP-1 response from allulose is equivalent to these medications. The GLP-1 response from allulose is more modest. It's shorter acting, but that's what makes it interesting. It works within our body's natural systems rather than overriding them, and so, combined with lifestyle which we should always have lifestyle in there it could be a great natural alternative to at least start with, if you are considering those drugs.

Philip Pape: 5:17

And that brings me to what the science actually shows. There is a 2018 study in Nature Communications this is the study that Michael sent me that when subjects consumed allulose with a meal, their post-meal blood sugar rise was reduced by up to 50% Kind of like the effects you would have on having a more balanced meal or having fiber in there. Even more interesting, it wasn't from blocking sugar absorption. The allulose was actively helping the body's process carbohydrates more efficiently. So that's pretty cool. But what about fat loss? Animal studies have shown that adding allulose to a high fat, high-sugar diet significantly reduced weight gain compared to control groups, and the mechanism appears to be three different things going on. Number one is reduced appetite, and that's from the GLP-1 stimulation. The second is improved insulin sensitivity and the third is enhanced fat oxidation. Now, we never want to compare animal studies to humans. We know there's a vast majority of them that do not translate and the human evidence is still emerging but it is promising.

Philip Pape: 6:28

Dr Charles Cavo. He's a physician who specializes in metabolic health, and he's reported success using allulose to help patients transition off GLP-1 medications while maintaining their results, which is really crucial, because the weight regain after stopping these medications is currently a major concern. My caveat here is I've worked with clients to help them come off of these drugs. We never had to use allulose and you can still do it, as long as you are eating nutritious foods, you're lifting weights, you're not cutting calories dramatically, and I'll tell you just as a side tangent one effective way to do this if you are on these drugs right now, like terzapatide or something like that, is when you get to a reasonable level of body mass that you're going for with the drugs. You can titrate down the drugs in conjunction with your medical professional and come out of the calorie deficit.

Philip Pape: 7:19

So it helps, of course, to be tracking, to understand your calories and macros, to be eating sufficient protein and fiber and to be lifting weights and being active. Those are the lifestyle changes you have to put in place in parallel. You just have to put those in place so that you're at least going in a reasonable deficit, you don't lose muscle mass, you maintain all of these things and you set yourself up so that it actually is not that big a deal in terms of the food noise and the satiety when you come off the drug. And then, when you do that, don't do it while in a dieting phase, you know, come out of it at maintenance or even into a muscle building phase. That's a whole separate topic. Um, so I just wanted to have that caveat because, yes, I could see that if you lose, use allulose, it's almost like a stepping stone and that is actually pretty cool. I do think that is pretty cool as we start to see allulose in more and more food products, or it's something that you can buy off the shelf and incorporate and, like I said, it's already in like a certain line of the quest protein bars and it's probably in lots of others. At this point, in fact, I think it might be in that magic spoon cereal. Take a look at your ingredient labels, folks, and see where you find it.

Philip Pape: 8:24

Anyway, back to the topic how can we use this information? First and foremost, always, always, always. Dosing matters, the dosage. When we talk about efficacy and we talk about toxicity and you hear about fear mongering about different things, dosing always matters. Dosing in context. Research suggests starting with 5 to 10 grams per serving, working up to 15 to 20 grams if well tolerated and the timing appears optimal, with meals Kind of makes sense. If you're talking about blood sugar and fullness signals and all that, it makes sense that you're doing it with meals, although I could see why people might think doing it between meals could have its own positive effect of potentially reducing your hunger signals, for example.

Philip Pape: 9:07

And then they said especially carbohydrate-containing meals where you want to minimize blood sugar spikes. I have to go on a little side diatribe here. Blood sugar spikes are not to be feared. I had somebody come to me saying I'd stopped eating potatoes because I wore a glucose monitor and my blood sugar spiked. I said oh, how far we've come in this industry where you think just a blood sugar spike itself is somehow a problem. It is not. It is not unless you already have your pre-diabetic, your diabetic insulin, as a concern For a healthy individual who's active. It's not Now. It could cause fluctuations in your energy levels. It can cause different usage of nutrients where maybe it's suboptimal in certain cases if you're just eating lots of carbs at individual meals, and that is why I definitely recommend balanced meals that always have some protein and fiber, and that usually mitigates the concern. And then walking after meals is the other thing. So again, just my little side diatribes here that I think are important in context of all of this.

Philip Pape: 10:05

So back to allulose. I think the beauty of allulose is it's a pretty versatile sweetener, right? Unlike a lot of alternative sweeteners which can have an aftertaste or bitterness or like doesn't behave the same way when you cook with it. Allulose behaves almost identically to sugar when you cook or when you bake. It even caramelizes. And again, intuitively, that makes sense because it's derived naturally from basically a fruit sugar type situation. So it makes sense that it would act naturally. But you never know, right. So for real world use it's pretty practical. But the caveat always caveats. Some people might experience digestive discomfort if they consume too much too quickly. But that's like anything Same thing with sugar, alcohols. Some people tolerate them just fine. Some people have gas, bloating, lots of things that are not great. So always start slowly, look at the dosage, increase gradually.

Philip Pape: 10:58

If you are an athlete or a lifter which should be most of you listening if you lift weights, you are an athlete. If you listen to this podcast and do it the way we talk about it. You are an athlete, I don't care your age, your gender, your previous lifestyle. So for us, some evidence suggests that allulose might help preserve muscle glycogen and that can potentially benefit performance and recovery. So that piques my interest. Okay, now, I haven't done it myself, using it as a pre-workout, but maybe you're going to see this in more pre-workouts, I don't know. We'll, we'll see how it goes. Um, all of this evidence is preliminary, so it always takes a while, like years, for this stuff, stuff, get it to get in there. Uh, but the mechanism makes sense because of its effect on glucose disposal, that it would help preserve muscle glycogen. Um, so something fascinating that I think is going to tie all this together, because this episode isn't going to be too long.

Philip Pape: 11:47

Allulose isn't just affecting our metabolism through GLP-1. The latest research suggests it might help reprogram how our bodies handle carbohydrates entirely. Okay, so think about that. This is a sugar that teaches your body to process other sugars more efficiently, and kind of working with our metabolism in a way, and who knows what that's gonna result in. I'm always skeptical of these kinds of things because at the end of the day, I think we can overthink it and again having balance, having the right level of macros. Having nutritious foods, having sufficient fiber and protein, are plenty to focus on for most people and will do the job. But if you're looking for little optimalities or ways to sweeten things up that are not sugar or not an artificial sweetener, this could be a really cool little corner case. So just to recap first, allulose is a natural sugar that stimulates GLP-1, similar to, but a lot more modestly than, modern weight loss meds. Second, research shows promising effects on blood sugar control, appetite and, potentially, fat loss. And third, its practical use is important in terms of its ability to use for cooking and baking, but always start gradually and dose up so you can see how you tolerate it. All right, whether you're looking to optimize metabolism, manage blood sugar, support fat loss, iolos is a very interesting tool out there in our nutrition toolbox. It's not a miracle Like none of these things are miracle, or superfoods or anything like that but it seems to be a scientifically supported option that works with our body's natural processes and I wouldn't fear it, just like I wouldn't fear pretty much any food at this point, and we're already seeing it in approved products. So there is that. All right.

Philip Pape: 13:29

If today's episode sparked any questions about this or any other aspects of nutrition and body composition. I do wanna hear from you with our new Ask a Question form. Go to whitsonweightscom slash question or click the link in the show notes Again. Whitsonweightscom slash question Sub question. Or click the link in the show notes Again. Witsandweightscom slash question. Submit a question to me and you will get a personal answer by email and then I will turn it into an episode and feature you on the podcast, if you want. That helps shape the podcast and give you what you want. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember sometimes the most powerful solutions are the ones that work with our biology and not against them. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights podcast. I'll talk to you next time.

Make This ONE Change for Better Sleep, HRV, and Fat Loss (Dr. Peter Martone) | Ep 280

Download my free Better Sleep, Better Body guide to optimize your sleep for fat loss, body composition, and hormones

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Could your sleep position be holding you back from optimal recovery? You track your training, nutrition, and HRV—but what about your neck alignment during sleep? 

Dr. Peter Martone joins me to explain how your sleep position affects your nervous system, HRV, and overall performance. He reveals how traditional sleeping positions might be sabotaging your recovery and shares practical tips to start fixing it—tonight.

Dr. Peter Martone is a chiropractor and exercise physiologist with over 25 years of experience. Through his research, he discovered how sleep position and spinal alignment impact nervous system function, recovery, and pain. He has helped thousands optimize their sleep and performance through proper positioning. 

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:12 – What is a "sleep avatar," and why does it matter?
06:28 – How Dr. Martone discovered the link between sleep and spinal health
10:30 – The one sleep change that fixed Dr. Martone’s chronic pain
14:13 – How your sleep position affects your nervous system and HRV
20:09 – The #1 mistake people make with pillows (and how to fix it)
25:47 – Why side sleeping could be causing your shoulder pain
30:42 – The real reason for imbalances and chronic pain
35:35 – How sleep position impacts snoring and sleep apnea
41:18 – The easiest way to start fixing your sleep position

Episode resources:

• Website: drsleepright.com

• Instagram: @drsleepright

The One Sleep Change That Can Transform Your Recovery, HRV, and Fat Loss

Most people think optimizing sleep is all about going to bed earlier, using blackout curtains, or avoiding blue light. But what if your sleep position—the way your body is aligned when you sleep—was the real key to better recovery, higher HRV, and even more efficient fat loss?

In this article, we break down what Dr. Peter Martone shared on the Wits & Weights podcast about why your sleep posture matters more than you think. You’ll learn:

✔ How your sleep position affects your nervous system and recovery
✔ Why side sleeping might be contributing to pain, poor HRV, and even weight gain
✔ The best way to sleep for long-term health and performance

Why Sleep Position Matters More Than You Think

We all know sleep is essential for fat loss, muscle recovery, and overall health. But most sleep advice focuses on surface-level factors like:

• Sleeping in a cold, dark room

• Avoiding screens before bed

• Using supplements like magnesium or melatonin

While these can help, they don’t address a critical factor: how your spine and nervous system are aligned during sleep.

🔹 Your nervous system controls everything from recovery to metabolism
🔹 Neck and spine alignment directly affect HRV, stress levels, and hormone balance
🔹 Sleeping in the wrong position can reinforce poor posture, increase stress, and disrupt sleep cycles

According to Dr. Martone, side sleeping and stomach sleeping can misalign your neck and spine, leading to:

❌ Shoulder and hip pain (especially if you lift weights)
❌ Lower HRV (Heart Rate Variability), making you more sensitive to stress
❌ Inefficient recovery, which can impact muscle growth and fat loss

Instead, the ideal position for sleep is on your back with proper neck support.

The Best Sleep Position for Recovery and HRV

If you want to improve your HRV, reduce pain, and recover better from training, here’s how to optimize your sleep position:

1. Support Your Neck, Not Your Head

Most pillows push your head forward, worsening neck posture and increasing stress on the spine.

✅ Instead of a traditional pillow, use a small support under your neck, allowing your head to rest slightly back.
✅ This helps restore the natural curve of your cervical spine, reducing tension and improving nerve function.

2. Start Sleeping on Your Back

While side sleeping feels comfortable, it puts your shoulders and spine in a compromised position, leading to joint pain and poor recovery.

✅ Transition to back sleeping with your neck supported to allow optimal spinal alignment.
✅ This position promotes better lymphatic drainage, improved vagus nerve function, and reduced cortisol levels.

3. Add Pressure for Comfort

Your subconscious brain associates pressure with safety, which is why many people instinctively curl into a ball when they sleep.

✅ Use a weighted blanket or an extra pillow on your chest or side to mimic the security of side sleeping without sacrificing alignment.
✅ This helps your nervous system relax into deep sleep faster, improving HRV and recovery.

How Sleep Position Affects HRV and Fat Loss

HRV (Heart Rate Variability) is one of the best indicators of nervous system health and recovery. A higher HRV means better stress resilience, while a low HRV suggests chronic stress and poor recovery.

Research shows that **proper sleep posture can:

✅ Increase HRV, helping your body handle stress better
✅ Reduce cortisol, the stress hormone linked to belly fat storage
✅ Improve parasympathetic nervous system function, which controls digestion, recovery, and fat metabolism

By simply adjusting your sleep position, you can enhance your ability to recover from workouts, optimize hormone balance, and even improve fat loss over time.

The Biggest Sleep Mistakes That Sabotage Recovery

Want better sleep, faster recovery, and a higher HRV?

Avoid these common sleep mistakes:

❌ Sleeping on your side with a thick pillow – This misaligns the spine and compresses nerves.
❌ Using a pillow that supports your head instead of your neck – Leads to forward head posture and poor vagus nerve function.
❌ Eating too close to bedtime – Digestion keeps heart rate elevated, disrupting deep sleep.
❌ Ignoring stress before bed – High nighttime stress = lower HRV and poor recovery.

How to Test if Your Sleep Position is Hurting Your Recovery

If you track your sleep with an Oura Ring, WHOOP, or other HRV monitor, try this:

1️⃣ Check your HRV before adjusting your sleep position
2️⃣ Sleep in the optimal back-sleeping position with neck support for one week
3️⃣ Compare your HRV, resting heart rate, and sleep quality

Most people see measurable improvements in recovery, deeper sleep, and less morning stiffness within days.

My Final Thoughts

If you’ve been struggling with recovery, low HRV, or stubborn fat loss, your sleep position might be the missing link.

By simply supporting your neck properly, starting on your back, and using strategic pressure, you can:

✅ Improve nervous system function
✅ Enhance recovery between workouts
✅ Boost HRV and resilience to stress
✅ Support fat loss and muscle growth

Sleep isn’t just about getting enough hours—it’s about positioning your body for optimal recovery.

Try these simple changes tonight, and you might wake up stronger, leaner, and more rested than ever before.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

We all know that sleep is super important and you might even be tracking your sleep, your training, your nutrition, your HRV, your aura ring all of that. But what if your sleep position is the thing holding you back? Your neck alignment, for example, during sleep, affects your nervous system and your recovery. Well, in this episode, sleep expert Dr Peter Martone is on to share how traditional sleeping positions might be working against you and shares a better approach that could help you out. You'll learn why neck position impacts everything from HRV to recovery and get some practical tips to implement, starting tonight. Whether you wake up with stiff shoulders, can't seem to recover between workouts, or you just want to optimize your rest, this episode will change how you think about sleep and sleep position.

Philip Pape: 0:51

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're examining how sleep position affects your recovery and results with Dr Peter Martone. Drawing from over 25 years as a chiropractor and exercise physiologist, peter discovered some profound connections between neck position during sleep and nervous system function, and he's helped thousands optimize their sleep through proper positioning. So today you're going to learn how your sleep position influences nervous system function, why the way you currently sleep might be compromising your recovery, and some practical tips to improve your sleep, starting tonight. Dr Martone, welcome to the show.

Dr. Peter Martone: 1:36

That was a great interview. Thank you for being I mean a great introduction. Wow, you've really summed up everything. I think we're done you did it.

Philip Pape: 1:43

There you go. Yeah, no, you just said that the interview is done. Yeah, there we go. No, that's awesome, you know, for the folks listening. Dr Martone gets around the podcast circuit for sure, and I first heard him on another podcast and it blew me away, because we talk about sleep a lot in the nutrition and training world. It's kind of the same things over and over, though it's the sleep hacks 's, the, you know, the cold, uh, the cold dark room with the sleep mask and the avoiding blue light and all of that. But I want to get into this very special angle that you come at it from with position, and my first question really is what exactly is a sleep avatar? Because I think that would lead to this very well I think that that is.

Dr. Peter Martone: 2:22

That is so. And listen. All the advice from the experts out there. It's great, it's all a piece of the pie, but in moving into this field I realized that they're missing the crust, and the crust is the connection that we live our life. And by the end of this podcast, if anybody wants to improve their performance, take their training to the next level, take their injury recovery to the next level.

Dr. Peter Martone: 2:48

You have to understand one thing that we live our life through our nervous system and everything we do through recovery, through, you know, digesting food, how we digest food, is all controlled by the nervous system. So when you eat food, putting that food in your system, that's not what makes you healthy. It's your body adaptation to that food, and that is all driven neurologically. So when I took that understanding and then I applied it to sleep, you can see that all the advice is great Lie in a cold room. That helps Make it quiet, shut off the TV. All of these things are super important. But what's happening right now? How you're listening to this, let's say, this podcast, that podcast is happening in real time, but you're not listening to it in reality. You're accepting this podcast through your sight through sound. So you're basically your brain is integrating the information and what you're listening to is a distortion of reality. And so what one person's experience might be listening to this podcast the same exact podcast somebody else could have a very this podcast the same exact podcast somebody else could have a very, very different experience because it's driven through our nervous system.

Dr. Peter Martone: 4:09

So when you think about our nervous system, we have basically some specific needs. You're in fight or flight, where you're in like training, or you're in growth or in a repair when you're sleeping. So think about when you are running from a tiger. You're in the stressful state, and that stressful state some people live there emotionally. So if you live in stress, one of the fundamental underlying needs for sleep is safety. So some people require a lot more safety than others. Some people curl up in a ball to sleep and some people can sleep opened up. So, your avatar, we've designed this very specific test at drsleeprightcom, where you take these I don't know, maybe it's 10, 15, 20 questions and it identifies what animal you need to sleep like. Basically, what it's doing is it's identifying what your subconscious need for safety is, and then, by doing that, I give you specific advice based on what your avatar score is or what animal avatar you are. Are you a gorilla, are you an armadillo or are you an ostrich?

Philip Pape: 5:19

Yeah, gorilla, armadillo, ostrich Good, I want to be able to get into that. First, I want to say I didn't take offense that you said this was a distortion of reality, because the context you put it in made 100% sense. I'm a fan of the matrix, by the way, so you got me going there through the senses. But it's true. All of existence that we perceive is through our senses, and even philosophers over the centuries have argued what is real right. So what's really cool about this, peter, is we talk about the central nervous system a lot, with stress and also with training, but we don't drop that connection in very much when it comes to sleep. I'm realizing that myself.

Philip Pape: 5:57

I've talked about sleep a lot and helped many clients with it, and I don't often put it in that context. So that's going to be super helpful as you move forward. And then the need for safety. I just had a guest on talking about the need for safety with our food choices, how we go to food for comfort, and it's just all so primal. So I want to understand about these three animals. I'd be curious what I am. I haven't taken the test yet, but I'm going to do that. You said the gorilla, the armadillo and the.

Dr. Peter Martone: 6:25

The gorilla, the armadillo and the ostrich, and the ostrich. Okay, so now we're in the second step, right? So let's just let's talk about where this came from. Actually, let's just go all the way back and tell you why I'm even in the sleep industry.

Philip Pape: 6:38

Okay, good, yeah, why are you in? It? Does position matter? All of that?

Dr. Peter Martone: 6:42

This was nuts. So I'm an exercise physiologist. I trained in UMass, amherst in Australia. I was a professional trainer in Australia and it was. So I'm an exercise physiologist. I love the study of biomechanics. I geeked out on it.

Dr. Peter Martone: 6:57

I loved the shoulder, but I always had pain. I always had pain in my shoulder. I always had back pain. I went through chiropractic school always had pain, even adjusting patients. I'd teach patients how to get out of pain, but I myself always had pain.

Dr. Peter Martone: 7:11

I attributed it to being a competitive mountain biker skydive, rock climb. I do anything to scratch the itch of having ADD that can drive me to adrenaline. Right, because stimulation is what calms somebody that has a brain that goes a million miles a minute. So I was driven to stimulation.

Dr. Peter Martone: 7:32

And then, you know, my best friend was in a tragic accident, died right in front of me. We were on quads and it flipped over and landed on him. You know, I gave him CPR and it set me into a negative dalwich spiral, just a a dark, dark place where I never wanted to be again. And um, so I was there and I was mountain biking, taking crazy risks, just had my first child and I jumped off this drop. It was about a 10 foot drop on my mountain bike and I felt a little tweak in my lower back and and you know I have had it before it wasn't really too big of an issue. But then after the next couple days, I went down. All I did was pick up a pencil and blew out my disc. Now I'm. I remember I was in so much pain I I told my wife I'm like I call the ambulance, I can't move, and she's like I'll take you to the hospital. What's wrong? I'm like you don't understand. I can't move.

Philip Pape: 8:33

Yeah, unless you could pick me up, I can't move.

Dr. Peter Martone: 8:35

Leg was numb and I had so much morphine. By the time I got to the hospital they asked my wife if I was a drug addict, because I was in that much pain and I can remember me in the emergency room saying how does it get to this? I'm a chiropractor, I understand biomechanics, but I myself can't help myself. So once I got out of the hospital I said I'm not going to have surgery. I got to figure this out. So I reviewed 3,000 x-rays at the time and I just I knew, knew there was a pattern. I just couldn't really put my consciousness to it. So I started reviewing x-rays, reviewing x-rays, looking at cervical x-rays and how they relate to lumbar x-rays.

Dr. Peter Martone: 9:13

Cervical is the neck, lumbar is the back, cervical lumbar, cervical lumbar. And I found this correlation that in our body we're supposed to have curves. You have a cervical curve and the lumbar curve is the same curve. But when you lose the cervical curve, which I had, I had a little bit of a loss of curve, never any pain in my neck. The reactive response due to what's called dura mater tension is a curve in the lower back and that curve in the lower back happens through the psoas major muscle, which is another thing that we found. And the psoas is the only muscle in the human body that attaches directly to a disc. So I didn't have back pain all these years because I wasn't getting adjusted enough or because I wasn't stretching enough.

Dr. Peter Martone: 9:58

It was because I had loss of cervical curve, picking up pelvic rotation, doing an adaptive response, and I'm like, holy shit, are you kidding me, ken? And that was a side sleeper. I used to curl up in my ball because my physiology loves protection, had shoulder issues, hip issues, and I'm like wait a second If I can spend, because I know long, long stretching is the best type of stretching, because I know long, long stretching is the best type of stretching, so I can spend one third of my life stretching my neck back, making sure I can reestablish that curve. In theory, at the time it should be able to take the pressure off my low back and fix my disc problem, and that's what ended up happening.

Dr. Peter Martone: 10:40

I started jamming pillows up under my neck until I created this neckness and then I started to transform the health of my spine and then I transferred that to my patients. So that's really what drew me into the sleep industry. It wasn't because I wanted to help people sleep. I wanted to fix their spines while they slept, and that is why our approach is so much different, because I come from all of this, this wholism, this, this holistic approach to healthcare, and now we've adapted that entire thing to sleep and increasing performance.

Philip Pape: 11:17

Yeah, no, it makes sense Mixing the biomechanics with the nervous system, with your individual propensity for that. What I want to understand, peter, is the three avatars you mentioned. It's a safety thing, but there's also a biomechanical or physical thing. I mean, I guess it's in the questionnaire, but I'm trying to understand how someone decides what they are, and then is the solution very different between them, or is there like a baseline set of things that are practical for everyone to use?

Dr. Peter Martone: 11:45

So then what we do is we have this triune of sleep, and this is where the avatar comes in. You have the conscious brain, the subconscious brain and then the body. Okay, the body wants alignment, that's all it wants. It doesn't want to be in pinning. And this is where the trick is the subconscious brain, the fundamental need for the subconscious brain. It doesn't know posture, it knows pressure, and the subconscious brain wants to feel safe in order to sleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: 12:16

Right, when I grew up in Malden, massachusetts, I was on a busy street and kids would bang on the window and it would scare the heck out of me. So I was always afraid to go to sleep. So I curled up in a ball, I put all these stuffed animals around me, and only when I felt safe was my body able to fall asleep. So different people, depending on their types of personality, require more safety than others. And so let's say you're a gorilla, okay, everybody needs to start in the same position. You're a human, you need your weight distributed over the greatest surface area and everybody needs to start in a specific position. Now your conscious brain is going to say you can't do it. But what your conscious brain is mistaking for comfort, it's the subconscious brain saying this isn't a safe position. That is what we have to understand. So we put the body in alignment. Then we need to figure out a plan to be able to create safety for the subconscious brain, because once you fall asleep, the conscious brain is out of it.

Dr. Peter Martone: 13:15

The subconscious brain controls sleep. So if you can identify the amount of safety somebody needs, some people need to put a pillow on their head, like the ostrich. The ostrich needs to stick to you. They're the stomach sleepers. They need all of that pressure on their chest. They put pillows over their heads. They need to stick their head in the ground to feel safe. The armadillo curls up in a ball. The gorilla has no enemy, so it can fall asleep anywhere. The gorilla has no enemy, so it can fall asleep anywhere. So, depending on which avatar you are, then I can tell you how you need to create safety in order to fall asleep in the aligned position, and then the avatar tells us what technique you need to use to shut off the conscious brain.

Philip Pape: 14:01

Okay, that makes sense. And before we go further, one thing that always comes up for me is the ability to fall asleep doesn't always correlate with the restfulness of the sleep, right? So when someone has no problem just falling asleep, I imagine it's still possible that they're still not in the maximum safe position for them just because of that. Is that correct?

Dr. Peter Martone: 14:23

Yeah, and that's where, like the five pillars of sleep and body temperature, what time you're eating stimulants you have. We have this way better sleep academy where we address all of that, because once you close your eyes, people are like, oh, I can have a cup of coffee and fall right asleep. Oh yeah, you can. Of course you can, but your heart rate's still high, keeping you out of deep sleep, so you're not getting deep restorative sleep. Test still high, keeping you out of deep sleep, so you're not getting deep restorative sleep. Testosterone levels are going to be cranked, adrenal glands are going to be cranked, but you wake up eight hours later and you think you slept great, but you didn't go through the natural cycles. And that's all the technical aspects of sleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: 14:55

And so what we really try to do, especially for that performance in that athlete, when you're looking at pain, pain is biomechanics. Biomechanics follow head position. So most people that have a shoulder issue or a hip issue have a neck issue because their head's too far forward and, due to the writing reflex, your balance is getting thrown off because most people are going to lean to the side of a sprained ankle. So the balance is coming over and the spine is twisting the head's coming forward, then you put that on the load in the gym. Then you're just going to hurt something. Because we want to start with alignment at night, especially for the athlete.

Philip Pape: 15:35

Okay, so just a little bit more on the biomechanics and the physiology behind this, and then I want to get some practical tips for folks. You mentioned the nervous system. Where does the vagus nerve come in here? I think you talk about that a lot in your work as well. Why that matters. It also comes up when talking about stress and relaxation and meditation and all sorts of other topics.

Dr. Peter Martone: 15:57

Yeah, so the vagus nerve controls sleep. So the opposite of sleep is awake. So awake is sympathetic dominance. So the opposite of lifting would be growth. So you have growth in defense. So when you are engaging the muscle, your body is in defense. When you are repairing the muscle, the body is in growth.

Dr. Peter Martone: 16:17

So those two things are like a seesaw. Each one of them is controlled by a very specific nervous system. And the issue is the nervous system is controlled by our emotions. So sympathetic stress whether you're running from a tiger because you're being chased or your body thinks you're running from a tiger, you're going to have a stimulation, you're going to have a stimulant response, which is why emotions affect sleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: 16:43

So the opposite of that is the parasympathetic nervous system. So the parasympathetic nervous system 80% of all the healing that goes on in your body, your body's ability to sleep. It controls three areas immune system, digestive system and reproductive system. So most people don't just have a problem with one of those systems. You have a problem with all three because there's an issue and a dysfunction within the vagus nerve. Now, the important thing about the vagus nerve is that it comes out right at the base of the neck, so when you lose the curve. You are just, you are tanking your vagal nerve function. So because we sleep curled up in a ball, a lot of times people can't sleep because their vagal tone is getting compressed due to the loss of cervical curve and the position is reinforcing that inability, like a weak muscle for you to turn on that deep healing capacity of the vagus nerve, because it's being compressed like stepping on a garden hose.

Philip Pape: 17:45

Okay, great. No, I'm glad you connected all those. So then, if you want to capture a baseline of where you are now based on all of this I don't know if it's like HRV, because I know you've talked about HRV having a big potential impact and improvement when you address this but what would people want to be measuring, like right now today, knowing they haven't touched anything, and then you know, once they've addressed the neck positioning and other factors, they can see an improvement. What would that be?

Dr. Peter Martone: 18:11

yeah, the best thing in this is that's how you brought it up. And I don't care what monitor you're using, whether it's fitbit, whether it's apple, whether it's Fitbit, whether it's Apple Watch, whether it's Oura Ring, it doesn't matter. You just need to be consistent. Whatever you're monitoring. And I like HRV, because HRV, which is heart rate variability, basically monitors the balance between the sympathetics and the parasympathetics, the balance between the sympathetics and the parasympathetics, the balance between the running from a tiger or that survive nervous system or that thrive nervous system.

Dr. Peter Martone: 18:45

When you are surviving and you're running from a tiger, that heart rate needs to be very rhythmic and the body needs to be able to depend on the amount of sugar getting to the cell like clockwork. That's a rhythmic heart rate, believe it or not. If you have a 60 beat per minute heart rate, that's one beat every second. That's not good. You want it variable, like bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. So one beat might be in 0.5 seconds, another beat might be in a second, Next one a second and a half, next one three quarters of a second. So you want that variability within the heart rate because that means the parasympathetic nervous system is at play. So when the parasympathetic nervous system is at play. In your sleeping, your heart rate is very variable. When you're awake and you're running from a tiger, it's very non-variable, so you can then take a reading over a period of a day and see how calm your system is and being able to see how well your body's repair.

Philip Pape: 19:42

That's one of the best explanations I've heard for HRV, because it's a confusing concept for people and even if you have an O-ring like I do, and you know you learn and dive into this subject people don't quite always get it, and your description of it being a gap between your sympathetic and parasympathetic meaning that the more of a calm state you can get into, the more it's going to vary is a good visual for that. So then I guess then I want to get into the positioning stuff, because you talked about a pillow, you talked about the curling up and whatever based on the avatar. I mean, what are all the things that people are going to potentially adjust when they fix their sleep position? All right, sleep position. Is this going to potentially adjust when they fix their sleep position.

Dr. Peter Martone: 20:19

All right, sleep position. Is this going to be audio visual? What is it?

Philip Pape: 20:22

it's mainly audio, I mean, you know, but but we have the video.

Dr. Peter Martone: 20:25

We do have the on youtube yeah, so this is what's going to do. What I'm going to do is I'm going to put myself in the position and you're going to explain what I'm doing okay, all right, okay, here we got it so I will move my audio here.

Dr. Peter Martone: 20:40

My thing oh, I got my spine on the bed, so I'm going to be using right now to do a neck nurse. This is something that we created, but if you have a soft down pillow or you have like a blanket, you can put under your neck. What's important is that you support so anytime you support something in the body you can put under your neck. What's important is that you support so. Anytime you support something in the body, you weaken it Anytime. I don't care what you're supporting. Anytime you support the body, you weaken it.

Dr. Peter Martone: 21:06

So when you use a pillow a pillow is defined as a support for your head You're weakening the cervical curve in your neck. You do not want to support your head when you sleep, but if you support your head or you use a cervical pillow and it goes under your neck and it's supporting your head at the same time, that's even worse. So you want some sort of force. If you have a bad curve, like I did, you want some sort of force applied to the neck that gently stretches and arch back into the neck and that would be distraction. So you support your neck, but you use the weight of your head off of the back of the neck nest or whatever you're using, so that your head is basically almost three quarters of an inch or an inch off the bed and it's gently like a slinky, like a weight up the end of a slinky.

Dr. Peter Martone: 22:01

It's gently stretching the curve back into your neck, even though you're supporting the neck by using the weight of your head as a distractive force. The body reacts to force, a force. Stress is a force that causes change, so that is what will reintroduce the curve back into your neck.

Philip Pape: 22:20

Okay, yeah, it makes total sense. So only support your neck. Your head hangs back a little bit. So Peter is about to lay down on his bed here in the video and he's just got a looks like a soft pillow squished up under his neck, just like he explained, and the back of his head is up a bit from the surface.

Dr. Peter Martone: 22:40

Yeah, I know. And when most people okay, here we go, right, we're going to talk about this. So when most people see that, right, it's like you're sleeping in a coffin the first thing that people say is I can't do that. I get it, you do not have control Right now. Any decision you're making is the conscious brain, so we know that that decision's flawed because the conscious brain makes all the excuses. It's why you don't do it. It's the problem. So let's talk to your conscious brain. Hello, consciousness, I get it. You can't do that. You're not in control.

Dr. Peter Martone: 23:13

I'm talking to your friend who is actually in control, like in my house my wife. You talk to my wife if you want to get anything done. So I'm going to talk to the subconscious brain. Subconscious brain, I know you can do this, but what you're saying is it's not safe and you don't feel safe doing it.

Dr. Peter Martone: 23:28

Listen, all we need to do is fall asleep like this and then, once you fall asleep in this position every night, I don't care what you do. So that's the lifestyle habit. The lifestyle habit is not to be a back sleeper with something under your neck and think that you're not going to be able to sleep like that Get like what every other expert tells you. Oh, you know, fall asleep on your side, that's the best position. Listen, idiot, not an idiot talking like the subconscious brain. You're not in control. I'm not talking like the subconscious brain. You're not in control. Once you fall asleep on your side and your arm's in this position, try to watch a two-hour movie in the position you fall asleep in. It's not possible. So for somebody to tell you that you can fall asleep on your side and that's the best position, you're only in that position for 20 minutes and then the average person tosses and turns 20 to 40 times a night because they're giving them the wrong explanation, because they don't understand spinal biomechanics.

Philip Pape: 24:28

And when you do this thing with your neck, you don't do that, so like what? Inevitably you're going to stay in that position. Is that what you're saying?

Dr. Peter Martone: 24:33

Yeah. So when you I don't want you to think about the whole night, but when you fall asleep in that position, right, everybody needs to start in that position, I get it. Your airway might be an issue. You snore, you have apnea. It's worse in that position. I get all of that. We have tricks and tools to help people overcome those things, but you want to start the body in alignment. Then the next trick is then be able to create the pressure from sleeping on your side, mimic that in the back sleeping position. So, for instance, if I get all right, I'm going to show you one more thing right here. So if I'm a back sleeper, if I'm a side sleeper, okay, I sleep on my side. That's pressure against my face, okay. So what you can do, you take neck nurse, put it on your neck but put a pillow against your face.

Philip Pape: 25:28

Put a pillow against your face on the side, okay.

Dr. Peter Martone: 25:33

Right or put a pillow on your side. You is. How important is it for you and how much safety or pressure do you need to create in order to allow the subconscious brain to have to stay in that position?

Philip Pape: 25:46

Oh man, okay, so, yeah, it makes total sense now. So if your body is inclined to want to go onto its side, you're giving it the safety so that, even if it tries to, it's now snuggled in that pillow and you're remaining aligned.

Dr. Peter Martone: 25:57

Okay, beautiful, yeah, that makes total sense and nobody has ever this has taken so much understanding, because these concepts that you know we have, like spare breathing and all of these things, they didn't exist before, because everybody you know takes the. They look at the 2015 study that was done on rats and say that side sleeping is the best for humans. But even though there's a significant study, this is a gold standard. The gold standard study that tells people that lymphatic drainage happens best on your side was done on a rodent. The rodent spine is completely off the cervical spine is completely opposite the human spine and in there there's a significant, same say, significant statement saying, even though this was done on rodents, we're extrapolating that the same is going to be done for humans.

Dr. Peter Martone: 26:48

And this goes through the entire industry and and it's like it drives me bonkers. So I said I gotta figure out where that study is, because I didn't know that it was done on rodents. I'm like, because there's something flawed because lymphatic drainage only occurs with ease is if the cervical biomechanics are good, because it's flow of the heart with breath around the spinal cord that you you need that cervical spinal flow, and if you have a breakdown in the proper spinal biomechanics of your body. You're backing all that stuff up cause like heart pressure, blood pressure and all sorts of different issues. And that's when I saw the study and I'm like that makes perfect sense.

Philip Pape: 27:30

That makes sense. Yeah, the findings were that, but it does not apply to humans. I mean, I could tell you that from my girl's hamsters, that they're very different creatures than us.

Stephanie: 27:37

I could tell you that from my girls, hamsters, that they're very different creatures than us. The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment. It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Philip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape: 28:23

So we're going to break it down into different pieces here. You mentioned somebody with shoulder pain right, and again, I know lots of people who lived right. They have various issues that come across over time and sometimes they seem to not go away, even if they have surgery, even if they have physical therapy, even if they're doing everything they can to train around it. Maybe it's because of their sleep. I mean, how does that cascade or those mechanisms work to then say, somebody who had rotator cuff surgery and just never quite could recover, now, all of a sudden, is pain free?

Dr. Peter Martone: 28:51

You give me a side sleeper, I'm going to give you a shoulder problem.

Philip Pape: 28:55

Okay, so that's me, that's me.

Dr. Peter Martone: 28:56

I'm speaking for myself. I can see it because your head shifted to the left side, your hip is going to go to the other side and your shoulder is internally rotated. So when you have that, your body posture adjusts to head position. Then Davis's law so writing reflex says body posture adjusts to head position, so the head comes forward. Davis's law says tissue remolds based on the stresses applied.

Dr. Peter Martone: 29:19

So if you're sleeping on your side, you're internally rotating the shoulder, so you're stretching out and you're weakening most people because we're not rock climbers, we're not climbing things have inferior trap issues. The inferior trap is the main muscle that causes shoulder issues and impingement syndromes. Most people believe that the rotator cuffs are the problem. They're not the problem, they're just they're getting worn down because the altered biomechanics of the shoulder, because the shoulder blades. We have weak inferior traps. The inferior trap is done only with one exercise Grab the bar and squeeze your shoulders together. So the blade needs to squeeze together and then that will bring the shoulders back. But if you continue to sleep on your side, you're going to continue.

Philip Pape: 30:07

You're offsetting it? Yeah, cause even uh, dead hangs are known to be helpful. But, like you said, if you're just making the root cause worse, it's not going to help, okay.

Dr. Peter Martone: 30:15

That is a good as long as you go up and down a little bit and just get that flow. But that's what it's doing. It's reversing what? So? The rotator cuff right, supraspinatus, infraspinatus subscapularis and teres minor All of them, you know, most of them do this. Only two of them do external rotation, but none of them really retract the shoulder blades, which is what causes the impingement syndrome, the shoulder riding up into the capsule.

Philip Pape: 30:42

Makes a lot of sense. So I assume similar logic follows for everything down the whole posterior chain when you get to the low back, because low back's the next big hitter, would you say, or from your experience.

Dr. Peter Martone: 30:52

Well, the big hitter is the eyes right. So it's the eyes. Everything wants to level the eyes Now, oh, I got a short right leg. I got a short. That's all bullshit. Those are all adaptation to forward head posture.

Philip Pape: 31:05

Oh, when people say I have asymmetry or whatnot, that's what you're saying, yeah.

Dr. Peter Martone: 31:08

Yeah. So most people are like oh, it's the leg, and they saw a therapist and they say I have to work down here. I got to work on my core more. It's not your core, it's not your core, it's proprioception, it's balance. So it's innervation to the muscle. See, muscles are minions. They're always being told what to do. They're being told by the neurology. So if a muscle is in spasm, it's either moving something or protecting something. That's it. So we have to stop looking at the muscle structure and seeing why it's out of balance. It's out of balance because we're losing. I don't want to get technical, but it's all right, get technical.

Philip Pape: 31:43

It's all good.

Dr. Peter Martone: 31:43

The premise in our brain is atrophy. So, for instance, for you, what I want you to do is go to your screen, look at me through your screen and bring that circle back to your eye. What? Do you mean Like, so make a circle, okay, yeah, and look at me through the lens of the iris of the webcam.

Philip Pape: 32:01

Okay, yeah, it's like a teleprompter, so hopefully I'm doing it All right, make it smaller, make a circle.

Dr. Peter Martone: 32:06

Now bring that back to your eye. Okay, I could, so your right eye.

Philip Pape: 32:11

So now, oh, I see, yeah, you're telling me eyes that are dominant, and I got it.

Dr. Peter Martone: 32:15

Are you right-handed or left-handed? Right-handed, do you kick with your right foot or your left foot, right foot and do you do anything ambidextrous? No, okay, good, so you're fully lateralized. So that fully lateralized neurology is a lot easier to work with than and if you kick a ball, you're going to kick it with your right foot, correct? Yep, for sure it is a lot easier to work with.

Dr. Peter Martone: 32:41

Sleep wise, and one of the issues is you're constricted because I can see it in the way you stand in the frontal plane. So what happens is, as we lean forward or as we atrophy the brain people walk forward. That's why people have foot issues or toe issues. Yeah, you can see it right there. So when you're leaning forward, so when you go to sleep on your back, your body it's a lot of people are going to have nightmares, thinking because it's not safe, because the head's in that extension and you you're not safe in that that backwards plane.

Dr. Peter Martone: 33:10

So you want to work on balance to retrain the neurology, like we're working on a pack right now, on a specific wobble board that quantifies balance. But you want to work on like, just get a wobble board, not a bose ball, it needs to be a wobble board, like really hard wobble board which is a circle with the ball on the bottom and you want to stand on it and and have upright posture. Most I mean most people fall backwards or they fall forwards and they're constricted in one of those planes, but but that is what's firing the patterns wrong. So with all of my athletes, I have them immediately work on balance, because that is the best way to retrain the symmetry of the body. You don't look at it and say, oh, you need to do more on the left psoas, because you're not in control.

Dr. Peter Martone: 34:00

The subconscious brain's in control. It's your nervous system. Yeah, yeah, everything's the nervous system.

Philip Pape: 34:04

No, no, it makes sense, Like I'm thinking robots and gyroscopes and I'm thinking Segway, Like, oh, that's going through my engineering brain of how like all that stays balanced with counteracting forces that you don't even think about. Think about just like with lifting. You know, sometimes just being able to lift with the major movement patterns can resolve some quote unquote imbalances and such that people thought they had, because you're training things as a system, so you're talking about your nervous system. So, okay, this is good, man, I didn't realize I'd get my own coaching session here, but this is good for people listening because they're like now they can walk through the process.

Dr. Peter Martone: 34:37

And you sprained your right ankle, by the way, just to let you know.

Philip Pape: 34:40

I sprained my right ankle. Yeah, you think I did.

Dr. Peter Martone: 34:43

Turn your head to the left side my head to just my head, yeah. And now turn your head to the right, as far as it'll go. See how far you go to the right side and you don't go as far to the left. Yeah, that's coming up from an old ankle sprain. So the talus is pumped forward. It's possible, man, I've had injuries over the years. It's possible, yeah, but your body is leaning to that ankle sprain and then the heads go in the opposite way. So that's the mechanics, so you know, so that biomechanics of that right ankle need to be addressed. So you stand in on one foot on that wobble board, you work on proprioception, you retrain the brain to get out of pain. That's where, like, all of my work was done in that whole area before, and then it moved into the ADD world, then into the sleep world. So that's kind of where all that stuff is put together.

Philip Pape: 35:29

Wobble board sounds like fun. It reminds me of the. Uh what would? I grew up in the eighties. They had the. It looked. It looked like a board with the ball. That was the pogo ball. I know you said not that like the hard one, but still made me think of that. What about people with um, like sleep apnea, snoring issues, does? Where does that come into play with all of this?

Dr. Peter Martone: 35:45

no, that's great. Those are things that have to be overcome with airway management, but it does not change the position. So we have to have anchors. An anchor is something that is is law 100 of the time. So so writing reflex Davis' law, wolf's law and these are laws that they're not denied it's like gravity. You can't deny that. So in one of the laws that we've applied, is that your nervous system controls everything in the body. How important is it that nervous system functions optimally Extremely important While the spine protects your central nervous system. How important is it to maintain the integrity of the spine versus a 2% increase in heart rate, blood pressure when you sleep on your back? It's absolutely asinine when you're looking at things and comparing them to the overall yeah trade-offs.

Philip Pape: 36:33

first principles yeah, right.

Dr. Peter Martone: 36:35

So everybody, regardless of the airway. That's where the academy can come in, right. It can help people overcome things with understanding and learning. We're doing high level view, but you should always just start on your back with the pillow under your neck, put the body into alignment, create safety and then you know remember yourself to sleep, don't think yourself to sleep. So you got to get out of your own mind and you put those three things together. It'll transform the way that you sleep and will transform your results in the gym and improve your performance.

Philip Pape: 37:08

Something came to mind just totally off the wall. Is there any connection with your dreams and this like level of safety in the way you sleep? Like you mentioned the falling back, and I'm like I've always had dreams where I'm falling at the end in my nightmare and that's how I wake up.

Dr. Peter Martone: 37:20

Yeah, because you're losing Remember. Your dreams are in this weird space in the brain that nobody understands. Yeah, true, and if you are losing balance and your head is in a position you're going to stimulate some sort of vertigo, let's say in your head you're going to feel like you're falling off.

Philip Pape: 37:40

Yeah, yeah, I was just curious about that man. This stuff fascinates me. I'm a very skeptical person, very rational minded, but the more I've talked to experts like you and understand that there there is a rational principle basis for this stuff when you really explore it, and it's fascinating. So and then the other thing is my. You know, sleep masks are big now and weighted blankets and all of this other stuff. Are there any any things like that that could either get in the way or help in all of this that we should like maybe stay away from or I love pressure, love pressure in the eyes.

Dr. Peter Martone: 38:11

You can use a sleep mask. You can use a pillow over your head. You can use a sock. I've used a shirt.

Dr. Peter Martone: 38:18

When you travel, it's important to create a cocoon of pillows all around you, stuff them everywhere. Pressure is what creates safety. That's why babies like to be swaddled. That's why the weighted blankets work with some people. I don't use a weighted blanket, I just put my covers up underneath my chin close. I put some on my eyes. I just create that safety type of feeling. I'm more of a gorilla avatar, but I do need the safety. But I don't like all that pressure. I don't like the weighted blanket personally, but I do use it a lot with some of my clients. So I do love the idea of doing that. One thing interference Melatonin interferes with sleep cycles. Right, it knocks you out. Sleeping medication knocks you out, but you don't get good, deep, restorative sleep. Sleep for the bodybuilder or the athlete is the first third of your sleep cycle. The most important sleep for the anxiety, the ADD, the people that need to quantify their emotional stuff in their brains, is the last third of your sleep.

Philip Pape: 39:31

Right, is it deep and then REM? Yeah.

Dr. Peter Martone: 39:32

So the body healing is done in the first third brain heal. Mind recategorizing is done in the first third brain heal of mine recategorizing it is done in the um in the last third. I need it all because I got add. No, I can't super. You know athletic, so I I really am so disciplined on recharging if I want performance during the day. It starts with me at 9.30 when I go to bed and then when I wake up, my daily rituals that I choose. I know how I'm going to sleep that night. So it's not that you can just work on sleep and close your eyes and be healthy and have great sleep. It's really who do you need to become? Nobody wants to waste eight hours in bed. They want who they're becoming because they're getting better sleep.

Philip Pape: 40:18

Yeah, I agree. And what about wasting six and a half hours in bed? Because the other question is people are wondering well, what does Peter think about just sleep duration, like what are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Peter Martone: 40:27

Sleep duration does vary. I need a lot of sleep, but basically what you do is simply what we talked about at the very beginning. You keep taking your HRV. Take a day when you're at your best and see where your HRV is. That's your target. Then you want to increase that by 15% to 20%, or if you're never feeling your best, you want to increase that by 20% to 30%. So you do the thing. If you're not where you want to be, you need more sleep or you need to improve your quality. But I like the number eight right Eight hours of sleep. I like the number eight right Eight hours of sleep. I think the more athletic I am, I need nine, nine and a half hours of sleep. Sometimes If I'm not doing a lot, then I can get away with less.

Philip Pape: 41:09

Yeah, yeah, I know it's tough for a lot of people, but baby steps right Like one thing at a time. So I guess one of my last questions here then is is the best place to start? Besides, we're going to send them to your links and all that. Don't worry, peter, they're going to go through all that, figure out what you've got to offer them. Is it the pillow, or is there any other tip that you usually like to share with folks that they should come out of this with?

Dr. Peter Martone: 41:28

The best thing to start is start with positioning. Yep, start with positioning first. Don't say you can't is. That just lives in your own conscious brain. You start with positioning. You then create pressure in some way. Just use a sleep mask, use a pillow over your forehead, doesn't matter. And then, the biggest thing that I help people to get to sleep and I glanced over this so I want to go back to it think about the nervous system. You have nervous system at play.

Dr. Peter Martone: 41:57

When you are running from a tiger and you have to be quick with it, you know the blood's in the front portion of your brain. You need to think. When you're running from a tiger and react, you know it's the opposite of thinking. It's either remembering or letting go. So you can't think yourself to sleep because the blood's going to go to the sympathetic state and it's going to block you from sleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: 42:25

So if you're falling asleep and you're like I can't do this, I can't fall asleep like this, this is not going to happen or you're living in hate, anger, envy, fear. Those emotions are going to keep you out of sleep. Fear, envy, fear those emotions are going to keep you out of sleep. Now, if you talk about things like love, respect, gratitude and you give in to like an old memory. We have a thing that we call a sleep memory. Walk around a golf course in your head. If you golf a rhythmic, go from every hole, think about every sand trap, you'll be asleep by like the night hole. And then, once you walk that golf course, once walk the same golf course over and over and over again, that rhythmic memory your body will link to sleep and you'll fall asleep real quick.

Philip Pape: 43:10

I like counting sheep. You'll sleep tight, just like it says on your wall oh man, this has been super valuable. Peter, is there anything else you wish I had asked? I mean, I think we covered a lot in one, you know, jam packed topic here. Was anything else you wish I had asked about this topic?

Dr. Peter Martone: 43:25

I like data that identify things that we can control. So the first thing we have to understand is heart rate needs to drop down, respiratory needs to drop down and core temperature needs to drop in order to get good quality deep sleep. You can't do that by exercising too late at night, right before sleep, and you can't do that by eating too late, because if your body's digesting, you're producing heat, your heart rate's staying up and your metabolism will stay stimulated. So you want to go to sleep really clean. I guess you can say so. I have a rule no more than 300 calories within three hours of going to bed, and if it's a big meal, you want to have that at like 5 pm in the afternoon.

Philip Pape: 44:18

You hear that everyone. It's another reason to maybe train earlier in the day. And also, don't eat too late. And for us who are like bulking, which I am right now, that's a little more of a challenge, right, because that just means you need to start early with your food and spread it out and not be too late, because I've noticed those numbers on the HRV and everything just go to hell when you eat too late. With the amount of food I'm trying to eat right now, so, thank you, Peter, for all of that.

Philip Pape: 44:41

Where can listeners find more about TORQ? Where should they start to get the assessment and then find out more about what's available?

Dr. Peter Martone: 44:46

Just go to drsleeprightcom that's D-R-S-L-E-E-P-R-I-G-H-Tcom. Take your free animal sleep avatar test. Then you're in my world. You'll be able to find out anything from me from there, and always on Instagram at drsleeprightcom.

Philip Pape: 45:00

Awesome and I'm going to take advantage of some of this stuff myself. I'm definitely going to do the pillow thing tonight and I'm glad we spoke, because I'm happy to report back after seeing some improvement or checking out your stuff, and I'm glad the listeners got to learn from you today. So thank you so much for taking the time to be on here All right.

Dr. Peter Martone: 45:15

Thank you so much for having me.

Why Your Stress Feels Out of Control (Nyquist Stability Criterion) | Ep 279

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment to identify your stress triggers and get a personalized 3-step action plan

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If your stress response feels stuck in overdrive where small triggers cause massive anxiety, this episode explains why using a fascinating engineering concept.

Learn how the Nyquist Stability Criterion from control systems engineering reveals why some people maintain their cool while others get overwhelmed by the same stressors. Discover how to build a more resilient stress response system based on proven engineering principles.

Main Takeaways:

• Your perceived stress matters more than actual stressors

• Stress operates as a feedback system that can become unstable

• Three engineering principles for stabilizing your stress response

• How to measure and adjust your stress management strategy

Timestamps:

2:41 - Overview of stress as a feedback system
5:03 - Understanding stability and the Nyquist Criterion
7:58 - Three key factors in stress response
10:42 - Strategy #1: Implementing negative feedback loops
13:04 - Strategy #2 & #3: Signal delay and stability margins
16:12 - Building resilience and key takeaway

Why Your Stress Feels Out of Control and How to Fix It

If you've ever felt like stress is spiraling out of control, where even small problems trigger massive anxiety, tension, and fatigue, you're not alone. Many people feel constantly overwhelmed, even when their actual stressors haven’t changed.

The good news? Stress is a system, and just like any system, it can be optimized for stability. In this article, we’re breaking down why your stress response sometimes feels unmanageable and how you can stabilize it—using a simple engineering principle called the Nyquist Stability Criterion.

Stress is a Feedback Loop—Not Just an Event

Most people think of stress as something that happens to them, an external force that they just have to deal with. But in reality, stress is a complex feedback system, much like the thermostat in your house or the cruise control in your car.

Your brain perceives stress, compares it to past experiences, and adjusts your physiological and psychological state accordingly. The problem? Perception of stress is often more important than the actual stressor itself.

🔹 Two people can experience the same stressor (e.g., a busy schedule) but have completely different reactions
🔹 Your body doesn’t distinguish between real and perceived threats—a lion chasing you and an overflowing email inbox can trigger the same response
🔹 Chronic stress can rewire your nervous system to overreact to minor triggers, making small stressors feel catastrophic

So, if you’ve ever wondered why you used to handle stress better but now feel like you’re constantly on edge, it’s because your stress feedback system has become unstable.

What Makes a Stress System Unstable?

In engineering, a stable system is one that absorbs disturbances and returns to baseline—just like cruise control adjusting for a hill and then returning to normal.

An unstable system, on the other hand, amplifies small disturbances until they spiral out of control. This is the equivalent of putting a microphone too close to a speaker and getting that high-pitched, ear-piercing feedback loop.

When it comes to stress, your mind and body can become unstable in the same way, reacting to small triggers with exaggerated responses, making stress compound rather than resolve.

Here’s why:

1. Delayed Stress Processing (Signal Delay)

If you ignore stress rather than process it, the response builds up and hits you harder later on—like a dam bursting instead of slowly releasing water.

➡ Example: You suppress anxiety about an upcoming project, but when the deadline arrives, the stress hits like a freight train.

2. Amplifying Small Stressors (Feedback Magnitude)

Some people naturally dampen stress, while others magnify it by ruminating and overanalyzing.

➡ Example: You get a slightly passive-aggressive email from your boss. Instead of letting it go, you spend hours analyzing the wording, assuming you’re about to get fired.

3. Lack of Recovery (System Damping)

A stable system has built-in mechanisms to return to balance after stress, but if you lack proper sleep, exercise, or relaxation techniques, stress stays elevated.

➡ Example: You have a stressful workweek but don’t prioritize sleep or movement, so the stress accumulates instead of dissipating.

How to Build a Stable Stress Response (Like an Engineer Would)

If stress is a system, then we can apply stability principles to make sure it absorbs stress rather than amplifies it.

1. Implement a Negative Feedback Loop (Cancel Out Stress)

Instead of letting stress build up, use counteracting activities to neutralize stress before it spirals.

✅ Strength training – Lifting weights reduces cortisol and improves resilience
✅ Walking – A 30-minute walk significantly lowers stress hormone levels
✅ Deep breathing – Activates the parasympathetic nervous system, shutting off “fight or flight” mode
✅ Short breaks – A 30-second pause between meetings can stop stress accumulation

Think of it like noise-canceling headphones for stress—you’re disrupting the cycle before it gets out of hand.

2. Process Stress in Real-Time (Reduce Signal Delay)

Instead of suppressing stress, deal with it as it happens.

✅ Mindfulness or meditation – Helps process emotions before they get out of control
✅ Journaling – Writing down stressors helps organize thoughts and reduce emotional intensity
✅ Talking about it – A quick conversation can help diffuse stress before it lingers

Ignoring stress delays the response, which only makes it worse later. The sooner you acknowledge and address it, the more stable your system remains.

3. Build a Buffer Zone (Add Stability Margins)

In engineering, systems aren’t run at their limits—there’s always a safety margin. Your stress system needs the same.

✅ Prioritize sleep – Sleep deprivation makes stress feel worse than it is
✅ Eat enough protein and whole foods – Nutrient deficiencies make it harder to regulate stress hormones
✅ Lift weights consistently – Strength training improves stress resilience by regulating cortisol and nervous system function

If your system already has stability, it takes a lot more stress to push it off balance.

Putting It All Together: Train Your Stress Response Like a Muscle

Just like you wouldn’t go from never lifting to deadlifting 400 lbs overnight, your stress system needs progressive adaptation.

1️⃣ Start tracking your perceived stress (1-10 scale) to notice patterns
2️⃣ Implement just ONE stress-regulating habit (e.g., daily walk, deep breathing, lifting weights)
3️⃣ Adjust based on results – If stress levels don’t improve, tweak your approach

This is how you create long-term resilience—by gradually increasing your stress tolerance while making sure your system returns to balance after each challenge.

The Bottom Line: Stability Beats Elimination

Stress isn’t the enemy. The real problem is how your system responds to it.

Instead of trying to eliminate stress altogether, optimize your system so that it handles disturbances efficiently and returns to stability—just like a well-tuned machine.

No matter how chaotic life gets, you have the ability to train your stress response just like you train your muscles. And just like in lifting, consistency is everything.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're the type of person who feels like your stress response has been stuck in overdrive lately, where little things trigger massive anxiety or where one stressful event seems to cascade into an overwhelming spiral of negative thoughts and physical symptoms, this episode will change how you think about and manage stress. Today, we're talking about why stress can feel completely out of control even when, objectively, the stressors in your life haven't changed much at all. We'll look at stress through an engineer's lens to understand why your mind and body sometimes overreact to minor triggers. Whether you're dealing with daily anxiety, chronic stress that's affecting your training and nutrition, or just want to build more resilience, this episode will give you a powerful new framework to regain control. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that helps you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency.

Philip Pape: 1:02

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're examining stress through an entirely new lens by applying a concept called the Nyquist Stability Criterion, to understand why stress can spiral out of control. And don't worry, I'm gonna explain what that is and you'll see why it makes a lot of sense. Now, I was recently working with a client, michelle. Special shout out to her for inspiring this episode. She is in our physique university and she made I'm going to call it an incredible self-discovery about how focusing on perceived stress versus actual stress helped her finally get a handle on chronic stress that had been plaguing her for years, and that got me thinking about stability in systems and how the same principles explain why our stress response can become unstable. Now what's fascinating is that two different people can experience exactly the same stressor, like a busy work schedule or a demanding training program, but then they react completely differently. One person maintains their cool, the other person gets really overwhelmed. Today, we're going to uncover why this happens and what you can do about it Before we get into it. Of course, if you are struggling with stress, if you want some personalized guidance on managing it while staying on track with your fitness goals, I'd love to help. Just book a free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment call with me. It is not a sales pitch. It is a focused, fast session where we identify what's holding you back whether that is stress triggers or something related to your training nutrition and then create a simple three-step action plan to help you feel more in control. So click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click the big button at the top for that rapid nutrition assessment.

Philip Pape: 2:41

All right, let's get into today's topic. What we're covering today is first, we're going to understand how stress works as a feedback loop and why your perception matters more than the actual stressors. A lot of this is in our minds, so if we can control that, or at least understand it, we can go much farther in coping with stress. Second, we're going to look at why some stress responses stay stable while others spiral out of control. And we're going to look at why some stress responses stay stable while others spiral out of control, and we're going to use the Nyquist stability criterion to examine that. And then, third, we're going to use strategies from engineering as an analogy to help you stabilize your stress response. So bear with me as I nerd out a little bit, but it is going to be super practical.

Philip Pape: 3:19

So I want to start by explaining how stress operates in your body. Going to start by explaining how stress operates in your body, right, most people think stress is just something that happens to them, an external force that they cannot control. But stress is really about how your body and your mind process and respond to those challenges. And it happens through a system, through a complex feedback system, and that's why different people respond differently, and even you might have responded differently to the same types of stress at different points in your life. Now, in engineering, we use feedback systems everywhere, right From the cruise control in your car to the thermostat in your house right, your nest thermostat. These systems are measuring the current state, they compare it to the desired state and then they make an adjustment. That's it, and your body's stress response works the same way. It takes in information about potential threats or challenges and then it adjusts your physiological and psychological state accordingly.

Philip Pape: 4:14

What most people miss is it's not the external stressors themselves that determine your stress level. It's how your internal feedback system interprets and responds to them. And this is called perceived stress, and research shows it's actually a better predictor of health outcomes than objective stressors. And it makes kind of intuitive sense, right, like how you feel in terms of stress is probably more important than, objectively, what the stress might be. And another way to think about this think about your thermostat, right? It doesn't care if it's cold outside because your neighbor left their door open or because there's a winter storm. It doesn't care, it just responds to the temperature change. So, similarly, your body doesn't distinguish between a real threat being chased by a lion right and a perceived one, it initiates the same stress response either way.

Philip Pape: 5:03

We've talked about this before and I've had guests on that talk about the sympathetic versus the parasympathetic nervous systems, the fight or flight response. So this brings us to the Nyquist stability criterion. I know it sounds kind of technical, but it's just a simple principle in control systems that helps determine whether the system remains stable or spirals out of control when disturbed. So I want to break this down in a way that will transform how you think about stress specifically. So in engineering, a stable system is one that can handle disturbances and then return to normal.

Philip Pape: 5:38

Think about the car cruise control. I mentioned that earlier. Cruise control you turn it on, it goes at the same speed without you having to have your foot on the gas pedal when you hit a hill. You get to a hill, it starts to crank up right. It adjusts the throttle to maintain speed, cranks you up and then returns to normal on flat ground. That is a form of stability. On the other hand, it's going to overreact to a disturbance. Each response triggers a bigger accelerating response and that creates what engineers call positive feedback. It's not the good kind of positive right. It's like when you put a microphone too close to a speaker and then you get that small initial sound that gets amplified, amplified, amplified, right. Or if you ever have like, if you're on Zoom on a phone and then you're near a computer, on Zoom, zoom, and all the sound starts to feed back through the speaker and amplifies that terrible, like screeching noise we've all heard. That's what that is Okay.

Philip Pape: 6:34

Your stress response can become unstable in the same way. So let's say you have a deadline coming up for work. In a stable system you would recognize okay, this is a challenge, I'm going to mobilize resources to meet it, I'm going to do it and then I'm going to return to baseline afterward. In an unstable system, the anxiety about the deadline is going to increase your heart rate, increase your muscle tension, makes you more aware of your body's stress response. Your anxiety increases further and further and further and it becomes overwhelming. It creates a vicious cycle.

Philip Pape: 7:06

So that is an important analogy for the different types of people, but even you yourself, the different ways you handle different stressors. You know I always joke to my wife that like I can handle a high level of stress because I just kind of let it brush off of me, and some people perceive that as not caring or not having a sense of urgency. But it can be helpful as well when others get stressed by something Like, let's say, we're planning to go to um, my in-laws are planning to get, they got a flight to go to a funeral and they were freaking out about all the travel arrangements. So I said, okay, let me just go book multiple health hotel rooms for our family, I'll take care of it, they don't have to worry about it. Right, and that's my way of coping to help their stress. And it can be helpful vice versa. But then other things aren't going to stress them out at all. That might make me anxious, right? So we all can relate to this.

Philip Pape: 7:58

So the big insight from this Nyquist thing is that stability depends on how the system processes and responds to feedback right and in engineering terms which, again, we're going to apply this to us as humans, with our bodies and minds. We are going to look at three factors signal delay, feedback magnitude and system damping. So I hope it isn't getting too nerdy, but it's kind of cool how we map these to your stress response. So first we have signal delay. So in engineering, delays between the input and response often cause instability. So think about taking a shower. If you have a long delay between turning the handle and getting hot water, you might overcorrect and end up scalded. Or for anybody who watched Groundhog Day again, because we just had Groundhog Day, bill Murray gets in the shower, he cranks it up and it's freezing cold, right, and you overreact. But anyway you might overreact and end up scalded. And then your stress response has similar delays. When you try to suppress or ignore the stress, it can lead to bigger emotional response later. We all have been there, right, where we push it deep down inside and it comes out ferociously later on. So that's signal delay. That's basically, you're just procrastinating or you're not dealing with it.

Philip Pape: 9:15

The second is feedback magnitude. So a stable engineering system reduces the impact of disturbances. An unstable one amplifies them. Your stress response can go either way. Some people naturally dampen stress, they feel it, they process it, they let it go, and again I feel like I'm more in that camp, just naturally, and you may not be. Others amplify it through ruminating and catastrophizing and you turn small stressors into these major crises. Right, everything is a huge deal. Again, this is not a judgment. This is just something to be aware of. Do you respond this way to stressors? So that's feedback magnitude.

Philip Pape: 9:51

The third one is system damping how quickly these oscillations settle down. So, even when it's been disturbed, do they settle down? In engineering, we add filters or dampers to prevent this. Your body has natural damping mechanisms, like deep breathing and hormonal regulation right, some that you do on purpose and some that your body does involuntarily. But they can be overwhelmed if the system becomes too unstable. Right Again, you can only cope with a certain amount of stress beyond which it starts to expand out of control. So how do we apply these principles to stabilize your stress response? So we're going to use three strategies. I know I have a lot of lists in here, one, two, threes, but hopefully you're following. I'm trying to keep it pretty organized. We're going to use three strategies that are based on this control system theory.

Philip Pape: 10:42

All right, the first one is we're going to implement a negative feedback loop. Remember we talked about feed, positive feedback in the past being a bad thing. In this case, like it amplifies, like that screeching sound when you have the microphone near the speaker. In engineering, a negative feedback stabilizes a system by counteracting those disturbances, almost think of it like noise cancellation for stress. This means you can develop habits that automatically reduce stress when it starts building. And guess what? One of the best habits is Regular movement, regular lifting and, in some cases, a brief bit of high intensity activity like sprinting or something like that, but not overdoing it with lots and lots of chronic cardio, for example, because that creates the opposite problem that increases your stress. So lifting regularly, walking regularly, are two huge ways to increase your resilience and create a physiological response that counteracts the stress hormones like cortisol, or helps regulate them. It gives you resilience. There are also other negative feedback loops you can intentionally incorporate, like progressive muscle relaxation. It's a form of mindfulness, a form of meditation, and many, many others breathing meditation and so on. It doesn't have to be one of those techniques and I will say walking alone can be a huge one for a lot of people and it's easy to do. So that is a negative feedback loop, keeping in mind that that's a good thing. In this context, you're counteracting, you're negating the stress that starts to build up.

Philip Pape: 12:16

The second strategy is reducing signal delay. So notice that these are basically counteracting the problems we talked about before, so you remember how delays. If you delay, it causes instability. Right, and in stress management, this means you want to process your stress in real time instead of suppressing it, instead of pushing it deep down into the core of your stomach. Research shows that mindfulness, meditation, really any form of relaxation, even play, can literally rewire your brain's stress response circuits to respond more quickly and appropriately to stressors. It's like upgrading your processing speed when it comes to the stress and being able to cope with it, to deal with it.

Philip Pape: 13:04

And then the third strategy is adding stability margins. Engineers never run systems at the absolute limit. You always have safety margins built in. So for your stress response, this means maintaining what I call psychological redundancy Getting enough sleep, staying hydrated, eating nutritious foods these create a buffer zone. And lifting weights it's a buffer zone. I've talked about this multiple times recently about alcohol and other things. Small stressors, then, won't immediately push you into instability. You've got a lot more buffer zone built in where you can handle these things better.

Philip Pape: 13:45

So if you take all this together, where does this approach really shine? If you measure and adjust, you can put this whole thing on steroids right. Just like we monitor control systems, you need to track your stress response and there is something called the perceived stress scale. It's a validated tool used in research to help you quantify stress levels and monitor improvements. But you don't have to get complicated. Just start by establishing a baseline and rate your stress level on a scale of 1 to 10 or 1 to 5, whatever makes sense to you. We do that with my clients all the time. As part of our biofeedback tracking In Physique University, we have a biofeedback tracker. It includes stress, among other factors, and you're just going to rate it the same time each day for a week. So normally I recommend people track biofeedback weekly, but in this case, if you're trying to dial in something, you want to do it more frequently and then you're going to implement one strategy right, we're doing this systematically One strategy for reducing stress.

Philip Pape: 14:39

I touched a little bit on that today. I didn't want to get into the actual all the possible laundry list of stress details. I actually have a guide for that, called the stress solution guide, with specific things you can do. I think we all know some things that we can do, right? I mentioned walking, lifting weights. I mentioned being resilient. I mentioned breathing meditation and so on. I mentioned walking, lifting weights. I mentioned being resilient. I mentioned breathing, meditation and so on.

Philip Pape: 14:59

Um, I had a guest on who talked about just taking 30 seconds or a minute between things in your day, between meetings, between doing an errand and another errand All of those things can increase your resiliency and your stress response. I like the pillars lifting weights, walking, uh, um, you know, eating nutritious foods, getting enough sleep those are going to be the big ones, but you're going to change one thing and then you're going to see how your stress level changes. If you're wearing an Oura ring or some other wearable, it's kind of cool to see those numbers like HRV, resilience scores and whatnot. You could look at all that, look at how your numbers change and then if the approach hasn't really worked, you could adjust the parameters, just like you would tune any system. For me, right now, the thing I'm working on is my sleep posture and let's see when this comes out, when this episode comes out. Okay, this comes out on Wednesday and this Friday the episode with Dr Peter Martoni comes out. He's a sleep expert who talks about positioning, how to have a neutral spine and use back sleeping to improve your HRV and your sleep resilience quality. So that's the thing I'm working on and I'm going to see how the numbers change. Same thing with you. Pick one thing, measure it, track it before and after.

Philip Pape: 16:12

Now, the thing that most people miss about this whole stability thing, this whole stress response thing, it's not about eliminating the disturbances, because we can't control everything outside ourselves. Right, the stoic in me stoicism, ancient philosophy that's still super relevant today says that I can only do it, I can only control what's in my realm of control and I shouldn't really care about the rest. Right, it's changing how your system responds to those stressors. The most stable systems aren't the ones that never get disturbed, they're the ones that handle the disturbances elegantly. The same is true for your stress response. The goal is not to eliminate it, it's build a system that processes it effectively. So, as we wrap up, I want to recap the key points.

Philip Pape: 16:56

Your stress response is a feedback system. It follows the same stability principles as any system. By understanding and applying what we talked about today, you can implement strategies to prevent spiraling out of control and then build lasting resilience. And it all starts from understanding your level of perceived stress and then coming up with solutions to mitigate that. And that's it. It's not avoiding disturbances, it's building the system to respond and return to baseline. And, by the way, your baseline can be much bigger and more robust by building in the big pillars, like the lifting weights and having a healthy, active lifestyle, nutritious foods and so on.

Philip Pape: 17:30

All right, if you're ready to take control of your stress response and you want personalized guidance on some of those big pillars, don't forget I do have this free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment. Not a sales call, it's just you and me chatting about what is holding you back, what are your specific stress triggers or areas of concern with your training, nutrition whatever and create a simple action plan tailored to your needs. I say here you go, one, two, three. Here's a resource or two, totally free, have fun. If you need any other support, you know where to find me. That's all. It is Low pressure. Click the link in the show notes or visit witsandweightscom and click the big button on the top to schedule your call today. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, when it comes to stress, stability isn't about never experiencing stress, it's about having a system that returns to balance. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Lifting Weights vs. Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) for Fat Loss Over 40 | Ep 278

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Can strength training alone help optimize your hormones after 40, or do you need homone replacement therapy (HRT)?

Learn what the research actually says about how lifting weights impacts your endocrine system and body composition.

Whether you're dealing with menopause, andropause, or age-related changes, discover how to make informed decisions about combining lifestyle interventions with medical approaches for optimal results.

Main Takeaways:

• Strength training influences hormones through multiple pathways beyond just building muscle

• Your body becomes more efficient at using hormones through proper training

• The type and intensity of training matters significantly for hormone optimization

• Context is crucial when deciding between training alone or combining with HRT

• Consistency and progression are key for long-term hormonal health

Timestamps: 

00:01 - Can strength training really impact your hormones after 40?
03:47 - Breaking down what happens to hormones with age
08:29 - Three key pathways strength training affects hormones
13:21 - Systems optimization approach for hormone health
17:32 - Three scenarios for combining strength training and HRT
21:04 - Research on maintaining youthful hormone profiles 
22:45 - Closing remarks and community invitation 

Should You Lift Weights or Use HRT for Fat Loss Over 40?

As you move into your 40s and beyond, changes in hormones, metabolism, and body composition make fat loss and muscle maintenance harder than they used to be. The common advice? Get on hormone replacement therapy (HRT) or lift weights—or both. But which approach is best for optimizing body composition, and can strength training alone be enough to regulate hormones?

Let’s break down the science behind lifting weights, hormonal changes, and fat loss to help you decide what works best for you.

How Aging Affects Your Hormones and Body Composition

As we age, hormones like estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, and growth hormone naturally decline, leading to:
✅ More fat storage, especially around the midsection
✅ Muscle loss (sarcopenia), making it harder to stay strong and lean
✅ Decreased insulin sensitivity, making it easier to gain fat
✅ Higher cortisol levels, increasing stress-related fat accumulation

For women, menopause causes a steep decline in estrogen, which leads to a slower metabolism and increased visceral fat storage. For men, testosterone gradually declines by about 1% per year after 30, which can reduce muscle mass and fat-burning capacity.

With these changes, the way you approach fitness and nutrition needs to evolve.

Can Strength Training Improve Hormones and Help with Fat Loss?

The short answer? Yes. Strength training is one of the most effective tools for managing hormones naturally. Research shows that lifting weights influences hormones in three key ways:

1. It Increases Hormone Receptor Sensitivity

Even if your hormone levels decline with age, your body can become more efficient at using them. Strength training enhances receptor sensitivity to hormones like testosterone, estrogen, and insulin, meaning you get more benefits from what’s already in your system.

2. It Triggers an Acute Surge in Anabolic Hormones

Heavy compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, and presses stimulate:
🔺 Growth hormone – Can increase up to 400% during training, supporting muscle growth and fat metabolism.
🔺 Testosterone – Rises significantly even in postmenopausal women, improving lean mass retention.
🔺 Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) – Helps with tissue repair and regeneration.

3. It Improves Insulin Sensitivity

Muscle tissue acts as a storage site for glucose, reducing insulin resistance and making fat loss easier. Strength training increases GLUT4 transporters, helping your body store and use carbohydrates efficiently—without spiking insulin.

Should You Do Strength Training Instead of HRT? Or Both?

The answer depends on your symptoms, hormone levels, and goals. Let’s look at three scenarios:

Scenario 1: Mild Symptoms & Body Composition Changes

If your primary concerns are muscle loss, slower fat loss, and mild energy dips, start with strength training first. Give it three to six months while tracking changes in:
✔ Muscle tone and strength
✔ Fat distribution
✔ Energy and recovery levels

If these improve, you may not need HRT at all or might choose a lower dose if you decide to go that route.

Scenario 2: Severe Menopausal Symptoms or Significant Hormone Deficiencies

If you're experiencing hot flashes, extreme fatigue, major muscle loss, or severe metabolic decline, combining HRT with strength training is likely the best approach.

HRT can restore optimal hormone levels, while lifting ensures those hormones are effectively utilized for muscle retention, fat loss, and metabolic health.

Scenario 3: Already on HRT and Want to Maximize Results

If you’re already using testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), estrogen therapy, or bioidentical HRT, strength training will enhance the benefits and may even allow for a lower dose over time.

Many individuals on HRT find that adding a structured strength program improves their results dramatically by boosting muscle mass, fat loss, and overall energy levels.

Best Strength Training Approach for Hormone Optimization

To get the biggest hormonal response from lifting, follow these science-backed training principles:

✅ Train 3-5 times per week – Focus on progressive overload and consistent resistance training.
✅ Prioritize compound movements – Squats, deadlifts, presses, pull-ups, and rows engage the most muscle fibers.
✅ Use heavy weights with proper intensity – Work in the 4-8 rep range for big lifts and 8-12 reps for accessory exercises.
✅ Rest 2-5 minutes between sets – Allows for maximum strength output and hormone response.
✅ Track your biofeedback – Monitor strength progression, recovery, sleep, and mood to see how lifting impacts your hormones over time.

The Bottom Line: Strength Training Should Be Your Foundation

Whether you choose HRT or not, lifting weights should be part of your strategy. It preserves muscle, improves metabolism, and supports hormone health, helping you stay strong and lean well into your 40s, 50s, and beyond.

If you're on the fence about HRT, start with strength training first, track your progress, and then reassess if additional intervention is needed. Either way, the barbell should be your best friend for longevity, strength, and body composition.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Should you lift weights? Should you get hormone replacement therapy? Should you do both for fat loss over 40, men and women? If you're wondering if lifting weights alone can make a big difference in your hormone levels, we're going to talk about that today. I'm answering a question from our Facebook group about optimizing hormones and body composition after 40, and you'll discover what the research actually says about strength training's impact on your endocrine system.

Philip Pape: 0:26

Whether you're dealing with menopause, andropause or any other age-related changes, the goal is to you build a strong, healthy physique using evidence, engineering and efficiency. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are answering an excellent question from Angela L in our Facebook group, and she asked can strength training impact hormones, specifically in menopausal women? Does strength training provide benefits in production and or regulation of hormones that can help with fat loss? Is strength training a good first step before trying HRT? Now, the reason I love this question is it gets to the heart of something that I deal with constantly in nutrition coaching people wondering whether lifestyle interventions like strength training lifting weights are enough, or do they still need medical approaches like hormone replacement therapy or HRT? Now the research here reveals some, I'll say, fascinating, overlooked connections between resistance training and hormone regulation that we don't talk about a lot and I wanted to dig deeper into that subject today. So, angela, your timing couldn't be better, because I've got lots of clients that navigate this exact challenge and it's been really amazing to see their ability to improve their hormone levels without HRT or in complement with HRT, and we're going to cover that today Before we get into it.

Philip Pape: 2:04

If you find value in some of these discussions based on evidence and you want to connect with others, like Angela who asked the question, who are on their strength training journey, join our free Facebook group. Just search for Wits and Weights in Facebook or click the link in the show notes. It's really an amazing community we're at about a thousand now are really trying to grow. People sharing their experiences, asking great questions. We do a biweekly live. I share lots of free resources. Sometimes I just do ad hoc videos and lives to help you out with specific topics and help each other succeed. So click the link in the show notes to join the Facebook group and I will see that. Come in and I'll approve you and you can join the group.

Philip Pape: 2:43

All right, so let me show you how we're going to break this down today I want you to think of your body as a complex system with multiple interconnected feedback loops. Right, we've talked about this concept before. It's the kind of thing we deal with in engineering. We've got hormone production, receptor sensitivity, tissue response, and all of these work together. If you can understand the connections, we then can optimize the system instead of just focusing on one single component. So I'm going to start by laying out exactly what happens to our hormones as we age, because then that sets up everything else we'll discuss. It's probably why Angela asked the question and then I'm going to show you specific ways that strength training itself influences these hormone systems. And that's, I think, where it gets interesting. Even I always learn something new when I do this research behind the scenes. And then, finally, I'll give you a practical framework, as always, for deciding whether strength training alone might be enough for you or if combining it with HRT makes more sense.

Philip Pape: 3:47

So first let's talk about what happens to our hormones after 40. And for some of you, it might start happening in your 30s. You know, the period of perimenopause for women can start in your 30s. Everybody's a little bit different and of course, men can have a decline in their hormones as well, predominantly testosterone. I'm going to get a little bit technical here, which I think you guys like, but I do like to nerd out. I hope you do too, but I think it's important to understand this.

Philip Pape: 4:13

So, for women entering perimenopause and menopause, what we see is the major change in two key hormones estrogen and progesterone. Now most people know about the drop in estrogen, but what usually gets missed is it's not just the having less estrogen, it's about how that decline affects your metabolic system, your metabolism. The research shows that when estrogen drops, especially a form called estradiol, three major things happen. First, your body starts storing more visceral fat, that is, the dangerous fat around your organs. Your muscle tissue becomes harder to maintain, and so that leads to accelerated sarcopenia or muscle loss. And then your insulin sensitivity also decreases, making it easier to gain fat and then harder to lose fat. And so I see this play out a lot with clients, and we talk about this in the Physique University. We just had one of our live calls and I showed the timeline.

Philip Pape: 5:14

That happens when you get into peripost-menopause, and again, this is going to apply to men and women to an extent, but predominantly women right here, and clients are frustrated. Women are frustrated, right Because you are eating the same way you've always had. But then you start gaining weight, and not just anywhere, you're getting it around your belly right. So we hear the phrases menopause, belly, belly fat. And then your doctor says, even if you have a halfway decent doctors, they might mention HRT. I know a lot of doctors won't even mention it. That's a whole separate discussion.

Philip Pape: 5:44

So HRT hormone, bioidentical, hormone replacement therapy and you either start down that path or you're like well, before I do that, let me try some other approaches, some lifestyle approaches and clients that come to me. Either Either they start on HRT because they've addressed an issue, a deficiency, or they haven't done it yet and they want to see if some other things will normalize their hormones first, to see where the real issues lie, if there are any. So that's kind of where I'm getting to with this episode today, and what I usually see with women in that situation is women are storing more fat. They're responding differently to their usual diet and exercise routine that they've done for years. What worked in the past no longer works now. And it's not that you're broken, it's not that, like all of physics has changed, it's not that you're doing anything wrong, it's that the context has evolved and we have to evolve with it.

Philip Pape: 6:38

And for many of us, for many of you listening and watching, when you were younger, you could kind of get away with more types of training and types of eating and your body would be cool with it. And so then in your brain you're like, okay, this works, but in reality you were just delaying the inevitable. Now, for men, the changes are, I'll say, more gradual, but they're still very impactful. I mean, you know, men are really affected by these, uh, this situation as well, because around age 30, testosterone starts to drop roughly at 1% per year on average, and you know that might not sound like much, but if you compound it over 10, 20 years, you're looking at pretty significant changes. And then, by the age of 50, many men have testosterone levels that are like a quarter, you know 25% lower than their peak. And so what's interesting is for both men and women, they see growth hormone drop and IGF-1 drop with age, and so those are like your repair and regeneration hormones, if you will.

Philip Pape: 7:36

You know, when they decline, everything from your ability to maintain muscle, to metabolize fat, becomes more challenging. It's like stacking on top of each other. Then there's another hormone that tends to be a boogeyman but it does increase with age, and that is cortisol. Cortisol, the stress hormone, and that can affect your body composition. If it's chronically high and higher, cortisol then leads to increased belly fat storage and it could actually break down muscle tissue. And then the, of course, physical and psychological stress of aging just more obligations, and you're older and there's lots of things going on in your life. They drive cortisol up just when we would hope that it's more regulated. So I get it right, I'm 44. I'm just experiencing a little bit of this now. Fortunately, I started lifting about five years ago and I've noticed how beneficial that has been to a lot of different things, including testosterone. Uh, but we're going to get into that now.

Philip Pape: 8:29

How does strength training influence the hormone systems? Because Angela's question was um and by the way, if I sound a little hyper, it's because I've just had my coffee but strength training, um, the? The question is can you just lift weights and will that, you know, fix your hormones, so to speak? And this is where I think, like the technical engineering background kind of helps the systems thinking so, when you lift weights, you are, yes, building muscle, but you're also creating a cascade of hormonal responses. It's like you're tuning multiple control systems in your body simultaneously together. Right, they're not independent variables, they're all working together, and the research here is pretty robust and also pretty amazing. So I reviewed some of the studies. There is a 2022 meta-analysis, which is a study of studies, and they looked at 50 studies and they found that strength training influences hormone regulation through three main pathways, and I'm going to break them down. The first one is that it improves hormone receptor sensitivity.

Philip Pape: 9:31

So, even if your hormone levels are lower, your body becomes more efficient at using what you have. So it's kind of like upgrading your hormone software. Right, even as the hardware changes. The hardware's evolving, but now you're upgrading the software to kind of keep up. It's older hardware but newer software, and I've seen this with male clients. A lot of my male clients are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, so you start to see this around the 50s, especially dealing with lower testosterone, and some men are like jumping at the chance to go on TRT and others don't want to go there yet because they want to see like, is there something else I can do? And so we focus on a structured strength program keeping the stress levels down. Right, you're not necessarily going to the gym seven days a week and what you sometimes find when you lift is that total T doesn't necessarily go up. It could, but free T, the amount available for your body to use, can improve. We see this a lot with those situations where you're more efficient with your testosterone, which is it's emboldening. It's empowering to think that, because then you know it's not, you're not just trying to crank up your T level, you're trying to better use it right, and then your energy improves, you start having better symptoms, maybe building muscle more easily and have improvements in your body composition, even though your hormone level, your total, hasn't changed that much. So the sensitivity is important to understand.

Philip Pape: 10:55

The second. Well, okay, I think I might cover this later, but you think of how insulin sensitivity increases when you lift weights. So apply that to any hormone in a good way. The second pathway is the acute hormone response, right. So, like the in the moment, short-term hormone response. When you perform heavy compound movements, right, like the squat, like the deadlift, your body produces a surge of anabolic hormones. Growth hormone can increase by up to 400% during an intense training session. Testosterone rises significantly Even in menopausal women, who have a much lower baseline testosterone but, as I learned from Karen Martell, that is still the highest hormone in your body. Like you have the most of that of any hormone, even though it's much lower than men.

Philip Pape: 11:44

The acute response from lifting helps maintain your muscle mass and your metabolic health. So it's super important. But wait, there's more right, because I mentioned cortisol. Strength training helps regulate cortisol, the stress hormone, because and the irony is that when you lift weights it causes an acute cortisol spike during the workout, but over time it actually improves your body's stress response system, kind of like how it raises your blood pressure during the workout but it actually gives you lower overall blood pressure and metabolic health. Studies show that regular strength training can lower baseline cortisol levels and improve how your body handles stress hormones, and I think I touched on this a little bit in another episode about how just being a lifter helps your body handle lots of things better stress, alcohol, whatever Very important concept to remember.

Philip Pape: 12:33

And then the third pathway is about insulin sensitivity. So I promised I would get to that. Your skeletal muscle is the largest glucose sink in your body. It's this nice huge pool to store glucose. The more muscle you have, the better your body then handles blood sugar. So strength training increases something called GLUT4, glut4 transporters, and that helps shuttle glucose into your muscle cells without needing as much insulin. And so that is massive for fat loss as well, because better insulin sensitivity means better nutrient partitioning and then better metabolic health. It all works together. It's really, really cool. I hope you find this stuff as fascinating as I do. So that's kind of how strength training impacts hormones through three pathways that are very important.

Philip Pape: 13:21

Now what do we do with this information? So we're going to use what I call systems optimization approach, right? Systems? We talk about systems the same way we would tune an engineering system, right? That's where I come from. So you need, I'll say, four key components to tune your system. You need the input right, these are going to be your training parameters for your lifting. You need the control that's going to be progressive overload and managing recovery. You're going to need feedback. So these are your like, writing down what you're doing in the gym, your performance metrics, as well as your biofeedback and then output. So how does your body composition change and how do your hormone markers change? And, by the way, in the feedback, that can also include the blood work and the hormone panels as well. You may not need to go to that level, honestly, it could be just symptom driven by biofeedback, but just keep that in mind.

Philip Pape: 14:14

So for the training parameters, research shows that the sweet spot for hormones is going to be what we talk about all the time, something like three to five sessions per week, prioritizing compound movements, big heavy lifts that use multiple joints. But it doesn't always have to be in the heavy rep range, which I would say is like four to six and four to eight. It could also you know, you could definitely have some accessory work in there in the eight to 12 rep range. More importantly is the mechanical tension and depends on what your goals are, but some, some combination of those. You then have to have progressive overload consistently applied. What does that mean? That means you are always pushing yourself to your current limit so that you can adapt and create a new limit that's stronger over time. So if you were able to lift you know, 135 pounds for your squat this session, you might lift 140 next time. Or if you're able to get eight reps at a certain weight, you would get 10 reps at a certain weight, some combination of that, which we're not going to get into super great detail today, but I have other episodes about it. I also have some guides on that.

Philip Pape: 15:14

Okay, and then you know, interestingly, when we look at what types of movements create a large hormonal response, it's going to be the ones that use more muscle mass, more of your system, more of your body, the bigger, the ones that recruit more muscle fibers. So squat, deadlifts, um presses, rows, pull-ups, lat pull-downs, really any compound lift you can think of. And then, of course, you can branch out into other movements to compliment that. So it's yet another reason to lift, lift heavy and use compound lifts and use all the things we talk about, as opposed to the YouTube workouts that change every time, that have like 20 reps. That are circuits. You know the circuit training yeah, it's got to be heavy where you're taking long rest periods, you're in fairly lower rep ranges and you're progressing over time.

Philip Pape: 16:02

My female clients who stick to those types of programs are the ones that have massive success and they find that this cascade of hormones leads to lots of other benefits, including fat loss. It makes it so much easier. The rest periods I mentioned that they matter more than most people realize. Um, the rest periods I mentioned that they matter more than most people realize. Um, if you're trying to maximize strength and muscle, you need longer rest periods, but it also doesn't hurt to have shorter rest periods for endurance, for work capacity, for even for hormone output. There is some correlation. So I like to mix both right. I like to have big lifts where you're resting three to five minutes and then a couple accessories after that where you might rest anywhere from rest anywhere from 30 seconds to two or three minutes. So that's just training in general.

Philip Pape: 16:47

The question here now getting back to Angela's original question is should you do strength training instead of HRT or should you use both? It depends. This is where context becomes really important, because this is I'm not a hormone. I'll call it expert. I'm not a hormone coach. This is not a hormone podcast, but I listen to a ton of information about, and research a ton of information about hormones, and I'm always working with clients on trying to, I'll say, not interpret their hormone panels, because that's technically outside my scope of practice, but take the interpretation and then apply it to okay, what are we doing for our training and our nutrition that can be improved? That might then translate back to an improvement in hormones. And the research shows.

Philip Pape: 17:32

I'll say three scenarios that you might fall under. The first one is if your symptoms are moderate and primarily related to body composition so increased fat storage, increased muscle loss I think starting with strength training is the best thing you can do. It's very accessible, right. You can literally start this week. You don't have to hunt around for a good medical practitioner and I mean it's a whole can of worms when you talk hormone replacement therapy. Good medical practitioner, and I mean it's a whole can of worms when you talk hormone replacement therapy. And I would give it three to six months with a before and after, with everything you care about. So if that means hormones, get a hormone panel, maybe work with a hormone therapist, but then see what happens with just the strength training as its own variable. It's good to know that for yourself because that'll give you the confidence that a lot of this is in your control. Okay, and that doesn't preclude you then using HRT anyway. After that. We're only talking a few months.

Philip Pape: 18:25

And I say this because I've had a lot of clients who have these perimenopausal symptoms, right, and some of them have, like you know, the hot flashes and all the symptoms, I mean the laundry list of 10 to 15 symptoms that start to occur, and they come to me for lifestyle changes, and so sometimes what they're doing is a lot of cardio, a lot of um, high rep work. Maybe it's not consistent, maybe they're not progressing, they have a lot of stress, maybe they're not sleeping as enough enough, maybe they're not walking as much. So there's usually a lot of low hanging fruit, and oftentimes you're so overwhelmed with life or you've you've tried so many things or you've paid so many coaches you just feel lost or like you've hit a wall. And, frankly, I get men in this situation too, where they keep jumping around diets. It's like I'm gonna do carnivore, that's gonna fix it. Nope, I'm gonna switch up my lifting to this thing where I don't have to irritate my shoulder at all, and then I'm gonna make progress. Nope, something has to change. You know, something has to change. And so when we take the stress out, we focus on sleep, we focus on recovery, and then we have a reasonable level of intensity and volume for your training right, which for a lot of women means getting stronger, not the circuit stuff. Body composition starts to improve and then the symptoms start to improve, and then, when you get blood work, you notice your hormones are improving as well Not always, but often and then it becomes manageable and then you can say, okay, if I still need HRT, I could at least target it. So all of that was the first scenario.

Philip Pape: 19:47

The second scenario is if you've got severe menopausal symptoms so debilitating hot flashes, significant bone density loss you may need to jump right into doing both Strength training with HRT, right, and frankly, a good medical practitioner who's an expert on hormones should be able to tell you that hey, you're far off the range that you should be on this thing and so we need intervention and even lifting, and lifestyle isn't going to fix that. But a lot of people are kind of on the hairy edge and it's because the lifestyle isn't great and we fix the lifestyle and then everything comes back normal. And then guess what you don't have to do HRT, at least for a while, or you don't have to do as much, or you don't have to do as many different hormones. And then deal with potential you know potential symptoms from that, which, again, I'm not um, I'm not dissing HRT at all. I think it's awesome. A third I think it's awesome.

Philip Pape: 20:41

Third scenario if you're already on HRT, if you're already on it, which a lot of my clients come to me having gone through a hormone therapist or you know I mentioned Kara Martell before and others like her working with her and then they'll come to me. The proper strength training, then, can enhance the benefits of the HRT, and sometimes you end up finding that you need to reduce it. People who strength train regularly respond better to hormone therapy as well, so sometimes it makes sense to do both together. All right, hopefully I haven't gotten off on too many tangents.

Philip Pape: 21:04

But to sum all this up, in general, the research shows that people who maintain consistent strength training through their 40s and 50s often maintain hormone profiles that are closer to their younger years. And that makes sense because physique-wise, body composition-wise, strength-wise, I've seen people turn back the clock 10, 20 years because they improved their lifestyle. Right? There was a recent study that found that resistance-strained individuals over 50 had growth hormone and testosterone levels which averaged 30 to 40% higher than their sedentary peers. Right? So we can't stop the hormonal changes, but we can significantly influence how our bodies adapt to them and are efficient with them by incorporating lifting. There's no reason not to do it, I hope, is the message you've taken from this. So, as we wrap up, remember your body is very adaptive. No matter what age you are, it's always going to adapt to what you give it, and so, if you choose to pursue HRT or not, you should always have strength training in the foundation of your lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 22:04

It's the one intervention that improves every marker of health and fitness. We care about Every single one. There's no downside whatsoever. The key is doing it right, being consistent, using progression right. You don't have to be a power lifter. You don't have to be a bodybuilder. You're not going to get bulky. You don't have to gain weight. You can gain a tiny bit of weight, but it'll be mostly muscle. That's a whole separate topic. You just have to challenge your muscles and push the limits right. The weights have to feel heavy. You've got to be training hard. You've got to be moving and growing. Start where you are, progress systemically and then let those compounding effects of training accumulate and improve your home run profile over time.

Philip Pape: 22:45

All right, if today's episode resonated with you, if you want to connect with others like Angela optimizing their health through strength training, join our Facebook group. Search for Wits and Weights on Facebook or click the link in the show notes. Share your wins. With training, you can ask questions, become part of the community. Have fun. That's what we do. We have fun. We're positive. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your body's systems get stronger and more resilient with every training session, no matter your age. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Managing Autoimmune Disorders and Chronic Illness Naturally (Heather Gray) | Ep 277

Are you struggling with autoimmune symptoms that doctors keep dismissing? Are you tired of trying endless medications without seeing real improvement?

I bring on Heather Gray to share her remarkable journey, from battling multiple chronic conditions for 30 years to becoming a leading voice in natural healing.

As a Functional Diagnostic Nutrition practitioner and head coach at a prominent cancer treatment center, Heather breaks down the strategies that finally helped her overcome chronic illness – and now helps others do the same.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

02:06 - Why focusing solely on treatment fails
08:01 - Understanding the "perfect host" concept
17:15 - The real deal about comprehensive health assessments
20:15 - Moving beyond supplements to true healing
24:22 - The game-changing power of stress management
32:01 - Being your own health advocate
37:04 - Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: renegadehealthboss.com

• Podcast: Renegade Health Boss

• Facebook: facebook.com/RHBPOD 

• Instagram: @renegade_health_boss

• Youtube: @RenegadeHealthBoss 

• Get her free Foundations of Health ebook: rhbcourses.com

How to Manage Autoimmune and Chronic Illness Naturally

If you're dealing with autoimmune conditions like Hashimoto’s, celiac disease, or rheumatoid arthritis, or struggling with chronic illnesses such as Lyme disease or fibromyalgia, you may feel like you’re stuck in a cycle of symptoms, medications, and frustration. While conventional medicine plays a crucial role in managing these conditions, research shows that nutrition, stress management, and lifestyle interventions can have a profound impact on symptom control and overall well-being.

Why Conventional Treatments Alone May Not Be Enough

Traditional medicine focuses on diagnosing and treating disease, often relying on medications like steroids, biologics, and NSAIDs to suppress symptoms. While these can provide relief, they don’t always address underlying triggers like inflammation, gut health, or immune dysfunction.

Some common issues with conventional treatment include:

• Standard lab tests may miss key markers – Many autoimmune conditions go undiagnosed for years because standard testing doesn’t always detect early inflammation or immune dysfunction.

• Medications can’t replace lifestyle changes – While medications help manage symptoms, they don’t fix poor diet, chronic stress, nutrient deficiencies, or toxin exposure, which all contribute to disease progression.

• The role of gut health is often overlooked – Research shows that up to 70% of the immune system is located in the gut, and gut imbalances can trigger or worsen autoimmune conditions.

If your current approach isn’t getting you results, it's worth exploring additional evidence-based strategies to support your body.

The Root Causes of Chronic Illness

Chronic illness doesn’t happen overnight. It’s usually the result of a combination of genetic predisposition and environmental triggers. Here are some key factors that contribute to immune dysfunction and chronic symptoms:

1. Chronic Stress and the Nervous System

• High stress levels lead to increased cortisol and inflammatory cytokines, which can worsen autoimmune symptoms.

• A dysregulated stress response (HPA axis dysfunction) is linked to fatigue, inflammation, and immune suppression.

2. Gut Health and Autoimmune Disease

• A leaky gut (intestinal permeability) allows unwanted substances to enter the bloodstream, triggering immune overactivation.

• Microbiome imbalances are common in autoimmune diseases and can contribute to inflammation.

3. Environmental Toxins and Inflammatory Load

• Heavy metals, mold, pesticides, and endocrine disruptors can contribute to immune dysregulation.

• Air pollution and industrial chemicals are linked to increased risk of chronic inflammatory diseases.

4. Nutrient Deficiencies and Immune Regulation

• Vitamin D deficiency is associated with an increased risk of autoimmune disease.

• Omega-3 fatty acids help regulate inflammation and have been shown to improve symptoms in autoimmune conditions.

How to Manage Autoimmune and Chronic Illness with Lifestyle Changes

There’s no one-size-fits-all approach, but research supports these key strategies for improving immune function and reducing symptoms naturally.

1. Eat an Anti-Inflammatory Diet

• Prioritize whole, nutrient-dense foods like lean proteins, healthy fats, and fiber-rich vegetables.

• Limit inflammatory foods such as processed sugar, refined grains, and industrial seed oils.

• Consider eliminating gluten, dairy, and soy if you have known intolerances or autoimmune conditions.

2. Support Gut Health

• Eat fermented foods and prebiotic fiber to support beneficial gut bacteria.

• Identify and remove food sensitivities that contribute to inflammation.

• Consider gut-healing strategies like bone broth, collagen, and resistant starch.

3. Manage Stress and Regulate the Nervous System

• Practice mindfulness, breathwork, or meditation to reduce cortisol and inflammation.

• Prioritize quality sleep to support immune repair and recovery.

• Engage in activities that activate the parasympathetic nervous system, such as nature walks or deep breathing exercises.

4. Strength Training and Movement

• Resistance training helps reduce inflammation, improve metabolic health, and support immune function.

• Low-impact movement like walking, yoga, or mobility work helps regulate the nervous system and improve circulation.

5. Reduce Toxin Exposure

• Filter your drinking water to remove contaminants like heavy metals and endocrine disruptors.

• Choose organic produce when possible to reduce pesticide exposure.

• Avoid synthetic fragrances and plastics that contain hormone-disrupting chemicals.

Where to Start If You’re Feeling Overwhelmed

If this feels like a lot, start small and build habits over time. Consider:
✔ Eating whole, unprocessed foods
✔ Tracking symptoms and patterns
✔ Prioritizing sleep and recovery
✔ Incorporating daily movement and stress management

Managing chronic illness isn’t about perfection—it’s about progress. The more you understand how lifestyle impacts your immune system, the more control you have over your health.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're battling chronic illnesses like Lyme disease or autoimmune conditions like celiac, hashimoto's or endometriosis, and traditional treatments aren't giving you the relief you need, this episode is for you. Today, I'm discussing natural approaches to managing these complex conditions with someone who's lived it firsthand. You'll discover why conventional testing often misses these telltale biomarkers, how stress and mindset affect your symptoms more than you think, and practical strategies that can help you take control of your health. Whether you're newly diagnosed or have been fighting symptoms for years, today's conversation will give you a new perspective on managing chronic illness naturally illness naturally.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've invited on Heather Gray to discuss natural approaches to managing chronic illness and autoimmune conditions. After spending three decades navigating multiple diagnoses, including Lyme disease, celiac disease, hashimoto's and endometriosis, heather now helps others as a functional diagnostic nutrition practitioner. Today, you're going to learn how to advocate for proper testing, understand the mind-body connection in chronic illness and, as always, practical strategies for managing symptoms naturally through your lifestyle. Heather, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Heather Gray: 1:32

Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape: 1:33

So I brought you on here because we want to talk about something a lot of people struggle with and probably a lot of people silently struggle with, and that is a number of known issues, from Hashimoto's or symptoms that go unexplained or undiagnosed. And then combine that with what I'll say is inconsistent expertise in the medical field. Let's be honest, a bit of gaslighting too, right? A bit. A bit yes, and I know you're the comedian, so you can take that where you want and then like a pharmaceutical heavy approach, right, that's the other piece. So sometimes for people maybe it seems hopeless or like they have no clue where to go. And so somebody listening or watching right now who wants to be inspired, they need a little bit of help. They're like how do I even get started? What's the thing that they're missing that could make the biggest difference, like for their next step in managing or reversing these conditions.

Heather Gray: 2:26

There's a lot of big questions in there. Yes, when do I start with which one do I feel back? You know, no, gaslit, I, that is actually. I talk about that in my standup. I talk about being gaslit basically my whole life. And they say that women are like twice. As you know, it takes twice as long for them to get a diagnosis, a proper diagnosis, over a male, because it's still that type of gaslighting and women are just hysterical and it's just our hormones and our hormones get blamed for everything. It's insane.

Heather Gray: 3:00

I am a big fan of not focusing on treatment, right Like I'm going to die on that hill. Stop focusing on treatment Because once you dial in lifestyle, mindset, diet, exercise, proper exercise, health period, end of story. Between the artificial lights, the EMFs, the toxins in our environment, in our food, in our water, the fast pace, the constant fight or flight, we're stuck in. It's a hot mess and I mean, as you read off the laundry list of diagnoses that I have, I'm a walking talking model, proof of all these toxins, all these issues and what can happen once you start cleaning things up.

Philip Pape: 3:52

Yeah, and we were joking about broken water heaters before we started recording and how we you and I business owners we're stressed we were trying to juggle super busy schedules and there's sensory overload. I do like your what you just said stop focusing on treatment because lifestyle could be the solution, or at least it'll get you a lot of the way there. Right Like sometimes when we talk about hormone replacement and someone says, should I do that or should I do lifestyle? I'm like well, do the lifestyle. You may need the hormone replace, I don't know, but always do the lifestyle, like go train and go be active and eat the right way.

Heather Gray: 4:25

Do not pass. Go, do not collect $200.

Heather Gray: 4:27

Do it anyway, this is where you start because even if you get on hormone replacement therapy, you might need less right Like, because you're starting to get things moving. The way. Our bodies are just so brilliantly made that once we get out of the way, give it what it needs. It's amazing. It's amazing what it can do. It's, I mean, absolutely no short of a miracle.

Heather Gray: 4:49

Like I said, the stuff that I have dealt with in my life, the things that I have overcome you know two suicide attempts. You know horrific pain being a hundred pounds overweight. You know not digesting anything, psychosis from mold, like you name it I have been through it. And the fact that I now shoot. I run two podcasts. I have my practice. I just got hired in a very prominent cancer doctor's practice to be her head coach. I do standup comedy. I travel.

Heather Gray: 5:18

Like my life is not for the faint of heart and it wouldn't be this way if I didn't dial in these lifestyle tweaks and continue to keep some sort of a maintenance going. Like sleep is my religion. You know I make sure I detox every week, like there's certain non-negotiables that I have, because if I don't, I'm a little on the different side. I'm the canary in the coal mine. I, you know I've gotten some. Really I got.

Heather Gray: 5:42

I got dealt some pretty shitty hands with genetics and not detoxing properly. I don't make vitamin D, store it, transport it properly, you know. So it was fun to see these kind of weaknesses within my genes. But, as you know or hopefully you know, I think you know. You know what's in our genes is not the be all end. All you know there's got something called epigenetics, which is our lifestyle and toxins and that sort of thing on what, how the genes get expressed.

Heather Gray: 6:08

So there's so many people that are like, oh my God, I have the BRCA gene. You know I'm down to get cancer and they start to cut off their breasts and I'm like, no, no, no, no. You know, that's why I work for this cancer doctor. I work for us because she is totally in alignment with let's clean up all this stuff first before we ever stop about chemo and mastectomies and all that stuff. And it is incredible. I'm just so impressed with what she's doing as a doctor because she was surgical, you know, medically trained, but then went back to school, learned the functional way and what we're seeing the results with her clients are absolutely amazing.

Philip Pape: 6:45

Yeah. So you mentioned a few things that people are thinking of like okay, you had all these different symptoms. You also have an environment that's not made for humans you mentioned you know we have genetics. Whether we blame our genetics or not, they're there but they're not. You know they're the noise in the signal oftentimes. But at the same time, you did have some things that were unique for you, like the vitamin D deficiency. So a woman listening or somebody who's facing what they can't diagnose, it's chronic fatigue. I know a friend who has chronic fatigue. He's dealt with for years and it's fibromyalgia or one of those areas where it's kind of mysterious. What were the early signs you had and when did you decide that you needed to look into this, not just address the lifestyle? But I imagine there's other things you have to do to pinpoint what it is for you right, what the issue is for you.

Heather Gray: 7:31

Well, absolutely, and I love saying, no matter how common a symptom may be, it is never normal, right? It's always your body's check engine light coming on saying, hey, dummy, there's something going on in here. And all too often we've been brainwashed, you know, to reach for over the counter medications, right, which is just puts a bandaid over that check engine light and then our body just keeps screaming louder and louder and louder until we have an autoimmune disease or we have cancer or we have, you know, something bigger and scarier. But it started with me, like I always start off. I was four years old. I was basically born full of shit, like you know how many people can relate to being constipated as a little kid. And that started my let's throw band-aids at symptoms, you know model with thick, nasty oils, laxatives, but nobody was asking why this four year old couldn't poop hindsight's 2020. That was the. Did you have a lot of prune juice back then? I don't remember. Okay, yeah, I don't remember. I doubt it. I doubt it.

Heather Gray: 8:26

I was eating a standard American diet. Yeah, I was being raised by alcoholic addicts very young alcoholic addicts and my uncle had just committed suicide. So there was a lot of early childhood trauma that, I think, churned on my celiac disease. I said I was eating the standard American or the sad diet and it's kind of what started me to be the perfect storm. And so that's the one thing that I love teaching people is, even with Lyme disease, they're like I got bit by a chick and I got sick. No, actually you've been becoming the perfect host for probably one year, five years, 15 years, before you ever got to the place where Lyme disease could take over. Same thing with cancer. I just got cancer. It's in my history. No, I hate to tell you. It's probably been a lifetime full of stress and toxins and bad diet. And now you're quote unquote again the perfect host, right? So I was living in some moldy environments when I was a kid like I said, a lot of trauma and when I was 13 and got bit by a tick, I was the perfect host. So I got diagnosed two years. No, I didn't get diagnosed two years. I started showing symptoms two years later with my first suicide attempt. That was the first of two or three in the psych ward. So much fun. I just need to write a book about my experience in the psych ward, because this was before they actually separated and had different wings for young adults. So I was 15 in with adults and some of the stories I could tell you it was just ugh but anywho. So yeah, hindsight's 20-20. You know, 27 years later I'm 34 and I finally get diagnosed.

Heather Gray: 10:04

You know, I had been to probably 30 or 40 different practitioners and if that's the one thing I can tell people is like, listen to your intuition If you know something's up. But you keep going to practitioner to practitioner and they say your labs look normal and they don't find anything wrong with you. Next, keep looking. And typically I found that functional practitioners have a tendency to look a little bit deeper, more root cause. Their lab ranges are different. So, like for vitamin D, you know people are like what's functional medicine compared to regular medicine? Vitamin D, the Western model is looking for disease period, that's it.

Philip Pape: 10:40

Based on the population, too Right, and it's a sick population right.

Heather Gray: 10:43

Yes, it's going to skew that bell curve. So, like for me, my vitamin D was in the 30s. Well, according to Western med, 30 to 80 is optimal and it's not In functional med. We want it to be 60 to 80. You know, that means that you're actually performing properly, right and that you're functioning, not just close to flatlining and a disease.

Heather Gray: 11:07

So it was after I, on a podcast, I heard the founder of FDN, reed Davis. He was with Sean Croxton who wrote the book Underground Wellness. He used to have a pretty popular podcast and he was talking about how you got to. You know, make sure the hormones are balanced and that your gut is healed. And you got to detox. I was a silly hairstylist at the time, I didn't have a background in medicine. Intuitively something hit and I was like that's it, that's how I'm going to get better. And so very, very sick, with a young kid and my own business going through this course. You know, just a Hail Mary, hoping that we were going to find answers. And that was the start of my journey. That was back in 2013.

Philip Pape: 11:49

Yeah, obviously a lot of tough, tough situations to get through that that you dealt with. That created what you said, that environment for being the perfect host, which, just so I understand that phrase, this is a combination of the environment we're in as well as our behaviors and genetics. Like, what do you mean by that the perfect host? Can you explain it a little further?

Heather Gray: 12:08

All of the above, anything that lowers your immune system and allows critters to overcome your good guys, the stuff that we do. So birth control, antibiotics, other prescription medications lead to a leaky gut. So if you've got a leaky gut, then we've got a compromised immune system. The stress causes a leaky gut. We have a compromised immune system. Now. You're not getting enough sleep. I was living in a moldy home, so all these things stacked up against my immune system, making me vulnerable, making me more susceptible to these things. So that's what I mean about the perfect host.

Philip Pape: 12:44

Good, yeah, what do people understand? Because, yeah, and gut health I know you briefly alluded to that. We're learning so much more now about the microbiome and its impact on everything. It's even like the second brain of your body, right? You said, listen to your intuition, and that kind of hits on the gaslighting thing a bit from the other end, because we all know multiple people in our lives and ourselves included. I mean my own wife and friends and family and grandparents and parents.

Philip Pape: 13:09

Everybody's been affected by this where they go to the doctor, they get some sort of half-assed treatment and then it doesn't work. They go again. They either get another treatment or they're told well, you just got to deal with it, or it'll go away, or you know what I mean, or or or. There's so many inadequate answers and the idea that if you don't have the answer, you've got to keep going. You've got to be persistent, be in control of your health. I mean I have a personal, just a quick little, almost silly story of I was taking a inhaler, I was breathing it in for an esophageal issue and after about a year of it, my voice started to go hoarse and as a podcaster, this is not great. My voice started to go hoarse, starts out like a smoker yeah right, I Googled it which in the past you'd say that's dangerous. Nowadays I'm like I'm okay if you want to start with Google, because you might get some surprising things that come up.

Heather Gray: 13:57

Start with ChatGTP over Google.

Philip Pape: 13:59

There you go Nowadays, yeah, and it said steroid-induced hoarseness. I'm like, well, that sounds exactly what it is. So, guess what? I took it to the doctor and he's like, no, that's not a thing, oh really. So then I went to a different doctor no, no, that's not a thing. And so I experimented, I Every time I did, guess what? The hoarseness went away, and then it came back. And finally the doctor admitted he learned something from this through his arrogance. And so that's my personal. I get angry at it and I'm not going to say silly, but it was minor for me, but it's a lot more major for a lot of people, depending on what issue they're dealing with, right?

Heather Gray: 14:37

Oh my God, my kid was diagnosed with celiac disease two months after his second birthday. His belly had been so distended for so long, the muscles actually separated like a pregnant person. He you could count his ribs skinny little arms with this great big distended belly. And I remember seeing the hospital's dietician for the first time and I educated her on the celiac diet, like they were. I felt like I should bill her. It was so insane. What year was this? What like this was back in 2012, 2011, because everyone knows about celiac disease.

Philip Pape: 15:15

Now you would think, no, this is, this was right yeah, edge, and I was just like oh my god.

Heather Gray: 15:20

But even then they don't know like it's. One of the biggest misnomers with celiac is that there's all the gluten-free quote-unquote grains. A lot of them cross, react like wheat. So you know corn, rice and they've even got their own form of gluten. You know it's crazy. And oats, you know. So I tell people with celiac it's still because they'll feel better for so I tell people with celiac it's still cause they'll feel better for a while and then they stop and then they usually go backwards again and they don't know why. I've seen it with myself, I saw it with my kid, I've seen it with my patients. So I'm like, if you really want to get better from celiac you know, kind of heal and be more robust, you need to go grain free, because grains, those things are just you know all the gluten-free and a lot of times they're swapping out just regular processed crap for gluten-free processed crap.

Philip Pape: 16:04

Oh sure, sure, like the classic vegan diet I do, I kind of joke about it. It's like all processed foods.

Philip Pape: 16:11

Oh, so if we take that celiac example cause there are so many, if someone suspects they have it, or like people are thinking okay, I have symptoms, I have no idea what it is, when do I start? And then there's also I have symptoms. I think it could be this what do I do? Maybe those are two different scenarios, but let's start with the celiac one. People are confused. Do they get food and allergy testing? Do they get blood work? Do they have to go to a special doctor, special FDN, Like you know what I mean. It's overwhelming.

Heather Gray: 16:37

It's a good point, you know, and a lot of times the testing that a regular doctor will do is not going to unearth what you're looking for, unfortunately. So, like with Lyme disease, they will still use a Western blot, and Western blot is good if you can catch it, like within the first six months. Outside of that, it's crap because it's looking for an immune response and a lot of times Lyme has shut down that immune response and there's a couple like bands missing because of some controversial crap that goes on with our FDA, and so you're not going to get a real good answer from a traditional doctor's Western blot, unfortunately. So you know, I like starting people off with these intake forms. I have two intake forms, all together about 500 questions Like it'll take you a good hour to fill out, but it is really awesome at helping tease out. You know, is it gut issues? Is it Lyme? Is it autoimmune? Is it heavy metals?

Heather Gray: 17:35

You know, looking at the lifestyle back when I first, unfortunately, when they train FDNs and a lot of functional doctors, they just want to like $5,000 worth of labs right off the bat.

Heather Gray: 17:46

I found out very quickly that not everybody could afford $5,000 of the labs and then another $5,000 worth of, you know, quote, unquote treatment or, you know, supplement support, that type of thing. So I really got great at case management and looking at the history and looking at you know, all these different puzzle pieces. That kind of helped me put it together. And then if I felt like further testing needed to be done, I'd be like I maybe want you to do this stool sample or maybe I want you to do this genetic test because I want to see if you've got the genes for celiac or you know, it just kind of depends. But really starting with that case history and extreme intake form I think is a really great place to start, Because if you, you know, if you got somebody who's just wanting to throw either a thousand dollars with the supplements at you right off the bat or $6,000 with a lab test right off the bat, you know might want to run yes.

Philip Pape: 18:39

Yes, no, I've seen it in some of the. There's a lot of new precision medicine companies that have, just you know, popped up out of nowhere. You got to be careful, because their end game may be affiliate sales from supplements. Right, you got to watch out. So I like what you said, though, because when I think of like in my nutrition coaching practice, how it's very personalized, you really have to understand the whole person and how everything interacts and the whole system of like their history. What is in that kind of assessment in generally? Are there any symptoms that you asked for there? Is it their physical, like movement history as well as their medical history? I'm just curious what kind of lifestyle things are in there? Everything it's 500 questions.

Heather Gray: 19:15

All the above. I want to know if you got mercury in your mouth or if you had a root canal, because if so, you might be susceptible to cavitations, which are one of the biggest barriers to health. I need to know if you've had a mold exposure. Have you been tested for sleep apnea? What's your trauma like? Because nine times out of 10, even with cancer these cancer diagnoses if you look back one to a year and a half before their cancer diagnosis something happened. It's insane. Every single time something happened Lyme disease, like I said, talked with my, you know, but a lot of people haven't put the pieces together. So one of the first things I started asking for is okay, so you get diagnosed in 2021. That's pretty common these days. Things are starting to happen in 2021, 2022. What happened before that? Covid stressed everybody else out, whether they got vaccinated or not vaccinated. That's a whole, nother freaking set of can of worms, but digging into the mental, emotional and the stress part of their life as well, because that's the other thing that a lot of doctors aren't talking about, and sometimes those are the biggest wins. I had a guy that worked with me for over a year and I thought he knew my methodology by that time, but he didn't.

Heather Gray: 20:33

I'm still really stressed out and anxious. Can you give me another supplement? I said did you do your grounding exercise today? Get your feet out on the ground for 20 minutes today no. Have you gotten sun on your eyes today? No. Have you taken a 20 minute walk today? No. Have you done your meditation today? No. Have you done your journaling today? No. Have you done your breath work today? No, I'm not giving you any more supplements, like until you learn how to move your nervous system out of fight or flight and into rest or digest all these pills. Even though they might be healthier than their alternatives, it's still just a supplement. That's what supplements are for. They're supplements. They're not supposed to be the be all, end all.

Philip Pape: 21:15

Well, a hundred percent People want to shortcut and make excuses. I love that, so would you. Then, is your approach to the level where you start with lifestyle on day one, or do you still want to do some sort of parallel assessment and start with lifestyle? What does that process look like?

Heather Gray: 21:32

It depends on the person. Everyone is so different and I found that the Lyme patients and a lot of the cancer patients are a lot more sophisticated than other patients out there because they've had to be their own health advocate for so long, especially Lyme. Frigging chronic Lyme just got accepted as a diagnosis two years ago Wow. Okay, the frigging disease that haunted my Lyme.

Philip Pape: 21:54

I live in Connecticut, by the way, and I've heard about Lyme for years, so yeah, it's funny.

Heather Gray: 22:00

The thing that has haunted me for decades just got recognized by the CDC is a real diagnosis chronic Lyme, like. Wrap your brain around that one. So we've had to become our own health advocate, we had to become our own health detective, and so it just depends on where a person's at. But I really I try to do parallel, like I'll start maybe working with them on food stuff At the same time I'm working on them with mindset stuff. You know, it's so funny.

Heather Gray: 22:24

So when I was, you know, getting into the functional practitioner, I was really great at doing the physical stuff right Diet, no problem, in bed by 10. Okay, coffee enema, sure, no problem. And then I would get better and I'd relapse. And then I would get better again and then I'd relapse. And the book the Body Keeps Score came across my desk and if you haven't read it it's a really tough read, especially if you have any kind of trauma, sexual trauma, and I'm on the couch like ugly crying and my ex-husband's like what the fuck are you reading? And I'm like this little girl and her dad and he's like no, no, no, I don't want to hear it. But it was the first time that it was really explained to me how these traumas get stuck in your nervous system and keep you in fight or flight. Right, and it can be big T traumas, little T traumas, but either way they get stuck in your system and we're not meant to be running from a tiger 24 seven, and that's part of the reason why I kept relapsing.

Heather Gray: 23:19

And so once I started moving the needle on my nervous system somatic experiencing work, breath work, tapping, cold plunges, plant medicine completely changed my life total different ballgame. So then I finally I mean I haven't had a relapse of Lyme in five years. I haven't had an autoimmune flare, I've had nothing. I just I have whatever I get right. When I got the flu, it's the flu. When I got a cold, I got the cold, but I don't get any of these other like quote unquote flares, which breaks my heart because so many people think that that's also just kind of normal autoimmune flare. Oh, I'm having a lung flare and I'm like you don't have to have that Right.

Philip Pape: 24:10

You hear that like, especially like with GI issues a lot. I hear that like the diverticulitis, ibs and all that, like the flare ups, and you're saying, because you know people are skeptical, obviously, of a lot of this stuff listening and we're not talking about that you're curing these things but you're helping manage or put them into remission or avoid, like you said, flare ups with the lifestyle changes and it comes down to stress and the sympathetic versus parasympathetic state that we're in. So I do love that, because we talk about stress a lot as being just one of those massive pillars and it ties into your sleep and your sleep quality. And we talk a lot about strength training. I'm curious about your thoughts on just on lifting weights and strength training and resistance training in the context of all of this.

Heather Gray: 24:42

It's the bestest thing in the whole wide world. Like you have to continue to lift weights, and especially anybody over 40. Like if you're wanting to keep your structure, your balance, like any kind of a good lifestyle as we age, we have got to keep our bones and our muscles strong. I you know. Cardio over cardio, I think, is absolutely destroying people.

Philip Pape: 25:03

Yeah, over cardio, yep think is absolutely destroying people.

Heather Gray: 25:06

Yeah, over cardio. Yep, I'm not a fan and I found out in my genetics I have thin veins, thin walls in my veins, which means that if I do cardio for very long, much longer than like 30 minutes, it actually causes inflammation. It causes more stress in my body than it's worse. So I have a diminishing return of investment if I overwork out with cardio. But weights, I love weights. I love pushing something heavy. I just got back into it again. I don't know why I got out. I say that every single time. I'm like oh, I feel great, why did I ever stop?

Philip Pape: 25:34

Yeah, no, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on that with regards to the nervous system and stress too, because people it's underrated, it's like an underrated form of and because people it's underrated.

Philip Pape: 25:45

It's like an underrated form of and you also mentioned menopause, and you know we're learning more and more how, because of the hormone changes, right, your muscle mass loss accelerates at that age. If you're not doing anything to hold on to it and because you tend to eat the same amount of food, you know your body fat goes up and then your metabolism goes down and it all just spirals. Okay, so I know we're going on little tangents here.

Heather Gray: 26:06

No, I love tangents. It's great, it's great.

Tony: 26:09

Yeah, I guess.

Philip Pape: 26:10

I know if I'm thinking of what the listener is asking. They're probably wondering there's all these protocols and all these treatments, and when you talk about lifestyle and you hear something like cold plunges again I know what people are thinking. Are there 30 things I have to do every day just to be healthy? And I know that's. You know, do I have to do grounding and cold punches, this and that? And sometimes I skeptically poopoo on those things when I'm like are you even lifting weights and walking and eating right, like I think there's a hierarchy. What are your thoughts on that?

Heather Gray: 26:38

Oh, absolutely. I just got done doing an interview talking about how I love biohacking, because all the tools you know right now I've got I've got a. This thing generates frequencies through a red light. This is a tracking ring. This is an EMF blanket. This is like I've got like 10 biohacking tools around me at any given time. But that's because I told you I was kind of dealt a shitty hand when it came to my genetics and I have to work a little harder, but it's never, never, never. In place of lifestyle, lifestyle stuff always comes first For me. When I was in, when people are in the thick of healing yes, sometimes it can be. I say all the time sometimes my self-care feels like a part-time job, but it's better being full-time sick and it's all how you frame it. It saves time, money and years down the line, yep absolutely.

Tony: 27:32

It's not I have to, it's I get to right, it's a lack of self-care for your future self. Yeah absolutely.

Heather Gray: 27:39

It's a huge act of love. So, yeah, it just it's doing that. But now, you know, now I sauna every day, I do ground every day, I do meditate every day, so there's certain things and I try to have it stack when I can. You know, I only do coffee enemas once a week now. They used to be more because, like I said, I was born full of shit. That constipation never really changed much. So that's one of those things that I do to keep myself running in that, and this is a very toxic world, you know. So, yeah, there was a documentary out there, I guess, where this guy was like a billionaire doing all these biohacks and like he literally had no time to live because he was doing so many that's extreme it's like about living a long life.

Philip Pape: 28:25

That guy that's trying to extend his life, oh yeah, but he's not really living you know, that's the problem.

Heather Gray: 28:30

You know, and I think he even said that.

Philip Pape: 28:31

He also doesn't look like he lifts weights, but that's my own pet peeve on some of these guys.

Heather Gray: 28:37

Oh, I know, Right, absolutely crucial. You know I'll tell them you got to stop your cardio, but I want you walking, yoga, stretching and weightlifting like that, absolutely, as we're healing. Yeah so many benefits so with the comedy.

Philip Pape: 28:52

I think that's really cool because it's hard, like I do, public speaking and speech contests. But I consider myself highly unfunny, and so in the past I've competed in humorous speech contests, deliberately make myself try to write jokes right, which I think is great. You got to get out of your comfort zone. Oh, absolutely so. If people are listening like, oh, that's interesting, that could be something I would enjoy, or I'm into humor, or I was the class clown or whatever, I'm thinking like, what do you recommend for folks to get into it themselves? I know it's a real side tangent.

Heather Gray: 29:22

I know it's a real side tangent. I took a class Like improv, yeah, and it was stand-up.

Philip Pape: 29:25

Oh, stand-up like okay.

Heather Gray: 29:27

It was funny. There's another doctor, his name's Dr Sam Shea and he's on the spectrum and he does stand-up. He has a one-man show called NeuroSpicy. Okay, and I met with him in person one day, because I do a lot of networking with fellow practitioners, and within five minutes he knew I wanted to speak more and be on keynotes. And he was like you know, have you ever thought about doing standup? I was like why on earth would I do that to myself? He's like cause it's a really great skill to have If you're going to be a speaker. It looks really good on your resume. And I was like, okay, he goes. Do you have any trauma in your life? I said how long do you have for lunch? And he goes I think you'd be really good at it. You should take this class with me. And actually that was a week ago last year. So I've been doing standup for a year. I've actually made money. This year. I've been on over like 50 shows, like in clubs and bars and stuff.

Philip Pape: 30:18

Yeah, yeah, where can we find? Like, are you on YouTube?

Heather Gray: 30:21

for that I'm on YouTube, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 30:23

and then there's a comedy page on my website when I gave health boss, so all right, yeah, I just personally want to check that out selfishly, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna go watch that later. I love stand-up comedy. There's so much of it now too on, like all the streaming services. There's like too much right my name is tony.

Tony: 30:38

I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to phil in his wits andights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 31:20

What's something that you want listeners to learn about you that can help them in ways that were like, if they don't hear this advice, that 20 years are going to go by that they regret not having heard it. Do you know what I mean? No pressure.

Heather Gray: 31:34

Absolutely that not to give up. You know that, like I said, no matter how common a symptom may be, it is never normal and everything is figureoutable for the most part. You know it makes me so sad with these people who get diagnosed with Hashimoto's or other autoimmune and their doctor tells them they have to be on a biological or some other steroid or cortisone or something for the rest of their life. That is absolute BS, you know. And if you're willing to put in the work, because it's not easy, it's not easy going against the grain of society. Sometimes it can feel a little lonely, a little isolating, and I'm finding that it is getting easier.

Heather Gray: 32:11

Like people are starting to wake up, like red dice Woo, you know the FDA finally decided that ref, they're going to ban red dye five. It's going to be another three years. So do yourself a favor. And fricking banded in your own house, cause that stuff's been linked to autoimmune issues, mental health issues, adhd. But slowly but slowly it's starting to come around. People are starting to wake up.

Heather Gray: 32:32

And see, you know, there was a huge group of practitioners who were out protesting in front of Kellogg's and I wish I could have been with them. I was at another conference at that time. But Kellogg's and a lot of companies have got two different ingredients labels, one in Europe and one in the United States, because a lot of the food that we make here is banned in other countries. Right, like, wrap your brain around that one, you know. So, like I said, just really digging deeper, being an advocate for yourself and knowing that there can be another way if you're willing to look. You know, that's kind of so, like I said, just really digging deeper, being an advocate for yourself and knowing that there can be another way if you're willing to look. You know, that's kind of it in a nutshell.

Philip Pape: 33:10

Yeah, no, that and that ties to your earlier comment about persistence or whatever we were saying. You know about continuing to investigate, even whatever the doctors are saying, and it's not solving the issue for you. Okay, so one other thing came to mind when you mentioned that, because you talked about when you were talking about celiac. It was avoiding certain foods, not just grains but other potential gluten-containing foods, some autoimmune conditions that I understand. The first line of defense recommended from a natural standpoint is some sort of elimination diet or potentially cutting out certain foods forever, and oftentimes it's a very unpalatable list of things like 80% of what you would normally enjoy, even in a quote unquote healthy diet. I'm just curious of your thoughts of that where, like you're trying to make trade-offs for the rest of your life and you don't want to suffer either, and they're like here's this biologic you can inject yourself with once a week and you'll be good. You know what I mean. How do people address that kind of decision point?

Heather Gray: 34:07

Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Again, a lot of that's mindset and a lot of it can be done slowly over time. I am a rip the bandaid off type of gal. Not everybody can do what I do. You know Dr Tom O'Brien, he's a huge hero for me and has been for the long time and I had him on my show and he was like you know, Heather, you can do it slower.

Heather Gray: 34:28

You know, like the first month you have them cut out wheat, and then the next month you have them cut out corn, and then the next month and then in a year's time, right, and then it doesn't feel so heavy. Up front I was like, oh yeah, I suppose you could do that. But, like I said, I'm kind of a rip the bandaid off. But I was also really, really sick and I really needed answers, like yesterday. So you can do it that way. A lot of it is mindset, A lot of it's just a new learning curve. I eat amazing and that's why I made like a seven video cooking series, because I got so sick of people going God, what can you eat? And I'm like God, what can you eat? And I'm like tonight I'm having short ribs with braised carrots and sweet potatoes. You know like I am, a bad-ass cook.

Philip Pape: 35:12

You had me at short ribs.

Heather Gray: 35:14

We eat so good. It's ridiculous. And you know, and there's a lot of variety in our diet. Like I just eat real food, you know meat, vegetables, fruit, like there you go. And and I'm not a fan of cutting out a lot of the starchy vegetables because I I know that they can help actually feed the microbiome in a certain way. You know, if you cook, cool it. You know, eat it cooked and cool, that helps with the starch resistance. If you eat it last, it can help with the blood sugar issues.

Heather Gray: 35:45

And never, never never, never eat it naked, you know. Always some sort of a healthy fat, you know because it creates more resistant starch.

Philip Pape: 35:51

When you do that right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heather Gray: 35:53

Yeah, so you know there's a couple of different hacks that I do, but for the most part, you know, I don't. You know, and everybody's different too. I've started doing this genetic test a nutrition genome on people, cause I really want to find out, cause for the longest time everyone was touting keto, keto, keto. I got on keto. It jacked me up in so much weight, I was in so much pain and come to find out that my body does not process that much fat, even healthy fat, like it was like. And then I also had food sensitivities towards almonds and coconut at the time, which is hugely used in a lot of keto foods. So you know I do better on a little bit more of a paleo type diet. You know, even kind of a little on the Mediterranean side. So you know I like finding out what works for a person instead of just this throwing shit at a wall and seeing what sticks or putting somebody on a one sizesize-fits-all, because we're just so different.

Philip Pape: 36:45

All right, is there anything you wish I had asked today? Again, it was a very diverse conversation but, I think, a good one. I think we covered a lot of helpful points for folks who are struggling with some of these and want to know what they could possibly do or what they should do. Anything you wish I had asked.

Heather Gray: 36:59

I know, I think we covered quite a bit.

Philip Pape: 37:01

I know I think we covered quite a bit. Okay, all right, cool, all right. Where can listeners learn more about you? I will definitely look up the comedy side, but from a health side, where do you want them to find you?

Heather Gray: 37:10

I am the Renegade Health Boss across all platforms. And then I have a free Foundations of Health little mini ebook that you can find on rhbcoursescom. That's Renegade Health Boss, rhbcoursescom and that's Renegade Health Boss. You know rhbcoursescom and get that free download and you can, you know, start your journey today.

Philip Pape: 37:30

All right, cool. Yeah, we'll throw those in the show notes. I believe we're going to see each other again soon on your podcast and, yeah, thanks so much for coming on. This is awesome.

Heather Gray: 37:39

Absolutely Thanks for having me.

Daily Scale Weight Tracking Is Useless... and Necessary (Signal-to-Noise) | Ep 276

Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS - download on Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

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Should you weigh yourself daily?

Learn about an engineering concept called Signal-to-Noise ratio to explain why daily weight tracking is both meaningless AND essential.

You'll discover how your body's water balance, glycogen, sodium, and other factors create "noise" that masks the true "signal" of fat loss or gain.

Learn how to use the power of trend weight to get clarity on your progress while maintaining a healthy relationship with the scale. Plus, discover how this same principle applies to all aspects of your fitness journey.

Main Takeaways:

• Daily weight fluctuations are normal and can be 2-5+ pounds due to water, glycogen, digestive contents

• Research shows daily weighing improves outcomes but only when viewing trends vs individual weigh-ins

• The 20-day exponential moving average filters out "noise" to reveal true body mass changes

• This principle applies beyond weight - use trends for nutrition, training, recovery tracking

Episode Resources:

• YouTube video about the research on daily weigh-ins

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS - download on Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

Timestamps:

[03:27] Does daily weighing increase anxiety?
[04:56] Understanding how water weight and digestion affect the scale
[07:43] How to filter signal from noise
[11:21] How to detach emotionally from daily numbers
[14:27] How to implement tracking systems
[15:51] The mindset shift in data-driven tracking

Why Daily Weigh-Ins Are Both Pointless and Essential

Stepping on the scale can feel like an emotional roller coaster. One day, you’re thrilled by the number, and the next, you’re questioning every decision you’ve made. But what if I told you that daily weight fluctuations are essentially meaningless—but tracking your weight daily is still one of the most important things you can do for fat loss, muscle gain, or weight maintenance?

This paradox boils down to a powerful concept borrowed from engineering: the signal-to-noise ratio. By understanding this principle, you’ll not only remove the stress of daily weigh-ins but also unlock a smarter, data-driven way to measure progress.

Why Scale Weight Fluctuates Daily

Your weight isn’t static. In fact, it can fluctuate by 2-5 pounds or more in a single day, even if you haven’t gained or lost an ounce of fat. These fluctuations are caused by factors that have nothing to do with body fat.

1. Carbs and Water Retention

Carbohydrates stored in your muscles pull water with them—about 3-4 grams of water per gram of glycogen. A carb-heavy meal (like pasta or bread) can spike your weight temporarily.

2. Sodium Intake

Salty foods can lead to water retention as your body balances its electrolytes. Ever noticed how pizza or Chinese food makes the scale jump?

3. Digestive Contents

The food and liquid in your digestive system have weight. Depending on your eating schedule and when you visit the bathroom, this can easily add or subtract a couple of pounds.

4. Hydration Levels

Sweating, drinking water, alcohol consumption, or even the weather can affect your hydration and, consequently, your weight.

5. Exercise and Recovery

Resistance training, especially intense sessions, can cause muscle inflammation and water retention as part of the recovery process.

6. Hormonal Changes

Cortisol, reproductive hormones, and thyroid fluctuations also play a role. Women, in particular, experience significant weight changes throughout their menstrual cycle.

Signal vs. Noise

In engineering, the signal is the meaningful data, while the noise is everything that interferes with it. With your scale weight, the signal is the long-term trend—whether you’re gaining, losing, or maintaining weight. The noise is the daily fluctuations caused by all the factors we just discussed.

Think of it this way: tracking your weight every day is like watching waves crash on a beach to determine if the tide is rising or falling. It’s nearly impossible to tell from one wave, but if you zoom out and observe over time, the trend becomes clear.

This is why daily weigh-ins are essential. They provide the raw data needed to uncover the trend. Without enough data points, it’s much harder to determine whether you’re making progress.

The Science Behind Daily Weighing

Research backs this up. Studies, including one reviewed by Dr. Bill Campbell, have found that people who weigh themselves daily are more successful at losing fat and maintaining it long-term than those who weigh less frequently.

Interestingly, daily weigh-ins don’t lead to increased anxiety or obsession, as many fear. In fact, frequent weighing often helps people develop a more objective, data-driven relationship with the scale.

How to Track Weight Effectively

To filter out the noise and focus on the signal, you need to:

1. Weigh Yourself Daily

• Do it first thing in the morning, after using the bathroom, and before eating or drinking.

• Use the same scale and wear minimal or consistent clothing.

1. Focus on the Trend

• Use a tool like a 7-day moving average or, even better, a 20-day exponential moving average to smooth out daily fluctuations.

• Apps like Macrofactor calculate your trend weight automatically, saving you the mental math.

1. Detach Emotionally

• Treat each daily weigh-in as just another data point. The magic happens when you zoom out and observe the trend over weeks or months.

Why Consistency Matters

Consistency in tracking leads to better data, which leads to better decisions. Skipping weigh-ins or tracking sporadically makes it harder to spot trends and adjust your nutrition or training.

For example, if your goal is fat loss, daily weighing combined with calorie and macro tracking can reveal whether you’re truly in a deficit. Similarly, for muscle gain, it can show whether your weight is trending up as expected.

Applying the Signal-to-Noise Concept Beyond Weight

This principle isn’t limited to the scale. You can use it for other aspects of fitness:

• Calorie Tracking: Weekly averages matter more than hitting exact numbers every day.

• Strength Training: Individual workouts are less important than weekly volume and progression over time.

• Recovery: A single bad night of sleep won’t ruin you; it’s the long-term pattern that counts.

My Final Thoughts

Daily weigh-ins might feel pointless when you see the numbers bouncing all over the place. But those fluctuations are just noise. When you focus on the trend, you gain clarity about your progress and can make smarter decisions about your nutrition and training.

By shifting your mindset to see tracking as a data-driven process rather than an emotional one, you’ll unlock a whole new level of control over your fitness journey.

Remember, the signal is in the noise—you just have to know how to find it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You step on the scale every morning, hoping to see progress from all your hard work. Some days you're elated, others devastated. But what if neither reaction is even necessary? Today we're using an engineering framework that will transform how you look at progress tracking forever. You'll discover why obsessing over daily numbers is rather pointless. Yet tracking them is essential, whether you're trying to lose fat, gain muscle or just maintain a healthy weight. Understanding this one principle will give you clarity and confidence about tracking that you've never had before.

Philip Pape: 0:49

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring how the engineering concept of signal-to-noise ratio can change your approach to tracking and tracking progress and measuring progress. Recent research confirms that daily weigh-ins lead to better adherence and outcomes for fat loss than even weighing five times a week or less. Yet we also know that individual daily weights are meaningless due to natural fluctuations in your scale weight. Today, you're going to learn how to resolve this apparent contradiction and apply it not just to weight tracking, but every aspect of your fitness journey. Now, before we get into it, if you're ready to start tracking your weight and your nutrition properly.

Philip Pape: 1:37

One of my favorite tools is called Macrofactor. It is what I use. My clients use. It's the only app on the market that not only logs your food, it calculates your dynamic metabolism so that it can give you targets for calories and macros each week, unlike other apps that simply allow you to log the data. So if you download Macrofactor from the app store, please use my code, witsandweights. All spelled out, all one word, if you want to try that out for free. Macrofactor has the most advanced trend weight and expenditure algorithms of any app. It's super fast and it does all the complex math that we're going to discuss today. It does it automatically. So go get Macrofactor link in the show notes. Use my code WITSANDWEIGHTS to support me, and here we go.

Philip Pape: 2:21

Let's start by addressing something that might seem like a contradiction. I mentioned in the intro that there is research. There's a study that was reviewed in the Dr Bill Campbell's research review recently. I actually have a short YouTube video about it if you check out my channel at Wits and Weights and it shows that people who weigh themselves every day it actually compared seven days to five days and it showed that the seven days themselves every day. It actually compared seven days to five days and it showed that the seven days was more successful at losing fat and maintaining it long-term, let alone weighing even less than that. And yet at the same time and here's where we have to have two thoughts in our head we also know that daily weight fluctuations have nothing to do with actual fat loss or gain. So it's kind of fascinating, right. It's like we want to weigh every day for some reason, but we know that the data every day doesn't really matter that much, and there was a review in the Journal of Obesity that found better results, not just during the fat loss, but people who continue after the fact were successful at maintaining their results.

Philip Pape: 3:27

What's really interesting is that daily weighing does not increase anxiety or obsession, like many people fear or like many people claim. In fact, studies often have shown the opposite. People who weigh daily report feeling more in control, less fixated on their weight over time. Daily report feeling more in control, less fixated on their weight over time. They develop a more objective, data-driven relationship with the scale, and the wild thing is that your body weight can easily fluctuate by, on average, two to five pounds or more in a single day, even with zero change in body fat. And so I want to explain why that is, so that you have the context for why, then, the tracking is so important in the context of this signal-to-noise idea.

Philip Pape: 4:11

So first, here are the reasons weight fluctuates. One of the big ones is carbs and glycogen. Every gram of carbs stored in your muscles pulls in about three to four grams of water. So if you load up on pasta one night where you normally don't, that could be an extra 100 grams of carbs means a pound of water weight the next day. Right, and that's totally normal. It has nothing to do with fat gain. And then there's salt. There's sodium intake. Higher sodium foods cause water retention as your body tries to maintain proper electrolyte balance, and that's why a salty meal can spike the scale temporarily right, think Chinese food or even pizza. Your body is just doing its job. It's very sophisticated, it's very smart to maintain homeostasis.

Philip Pape: 4:56

Then we have, like, what's in your gut, digestive contents gut, what am I trying to say? Gut content, right, are a pretty big factor for some people, because the food and liquid in your digestive system it has mass, and, depending on when and what you last ate, depending on when you go to the bathroom. This can vary by several pounds, right, and it's why weighing yourself at different times of day is not a great strategy for consistency, because even just literally after having a glass of water you're going to, you're going to weigh more. Um, then we have our hydration status, which is always changing. It's not like you're a fixed creature, right. You sweat during exercise, you drink more or less water on different times, you might have some alcohol. The humidity level in the air can affect your body, body's water balance. All of this can cause multi-pound fluctuations.

Philip Pape: 5:45

Then we have training, right. Intense training exercise, especially resistance training, especially a leg day, can cause some inflammation and temporary water retention. Your muscles are holding more water. It's a good sign that you are adapting and you're getting stronger than happens, but it does sometimes cause a pop in weight. Then we have hormonal changes, right, especially relevant for women, but even men experience fluctuations that affect your ability to retain water. There's cortisol from stress, reproductive hormones, thyroid function. All of it impacts how much water your body holds onto.

Philip Pape: 6:19

And now people wonder why the heck the scale bounces around. Well, there you go. When you understand all these factors, you realize that expecting a linear change on the scale is actually completely unrealistic and not to be expected whatsoever. You actually want your scale weight to look like a huge oscillating up and down line or curve over time. It's never going to be that tight, it's rarely going to be that tight. Let's put it that way, right? It's like trying to measure the tide by looking at waves. I mean, that's a decent analogy. If you think of the ocean, it's just pointless.

Philip Pape: 6:54

So this is where the concept from engineering that you probably have heard of before, it's called the signal to noise ratio, where the signal is that meaningful data that we want to measure and then the noise is everything else that interferes with that measurement. Right, and sometimes the noise is a lot more than you want it to be. So if I give you a real world example, when you're listening to you, remember radios, remember radio in your car Okay, I'm speaking to my demographic, which is probably a lot of you listening and you're on a road trip and you get closer to the station and it's nice and clear, and then you start to drive away from the station. What happens? Right, the music, that's what you want to hear, that's the signal. It starts getting mixed with static and the static is the noise and then, as you get further away, the of that signal to noise gets worse and worse, until you can't hear the music at all.

Philip Pape: 7:43

And your body works the same way. Or your body weight, your scale weight, works the same way. The trend in your weight, whether you're gaining, maintaining or losing, that's the signal that we want to know. But all the daily fluctuations we talked about, that's the noise. And in engineering we solve this using a filter. This is a tool, this is a piece of math that you can turn into electronics, and it separates the signal from the noise. So for body weight, we can do that using a moving average. We can just weigh yourself every day and then use, like a seven day moving average or what I like, which Macrofactor uses, a 20 day exponential moving average. And you know, don't let that scare you, it's actually a pretty simple thing. You can even do it yourself in a spreadsheet. But think of it like this Imagine if, instead of looking at the waves hitting the beach and trying to determine the tide, you look at a time-lapse video over several hours.

Philip Pape: 8:34

You ever seen those where now you see the tide clearly moving in and clearly moving out, even though individual waves are always crashing, moving in and clearly moving out, even though individual waves are always crashing right. The exponential moving average does that. It gives more weight to the recent measurements and smooths out the daily fluctuations, and so, as a result, you get this trend line that actually tells you what's happening with your body composition. And I want to get into this, just nerd out on this a bit, because I've looked into this, and I want to get into this, just nerd out on this a bit, because I've looked into this and I even talked to Greg Knuckles a while ago on the podcast.

Philip Pape: 9:05

Why 20 days? Right, it's not random. It's actually long enough to filter out most noise, but short enough to still be responsive to real changes. Because you don't want to wait six months to determine your trend weight. That would be ridiculous. But we also know we can't do it in as short as seven days because it's still too noisy, right. And so you want to balance in between, and that's where the 20 days is really nice. And so when I'm working with clients, it's like the first couple of weeks, we're just collecting data. Let's not even worry about what it says. And then there's the question of the linear versus exponential. If you care about that. I mentioned an exponential average. A linear average would treat the last 20 days the same, but an exponential average gives more weight to recent days, even though it still considers older data. That's a very smart approach, because what's happened to your body recently is more signal than what happened 20 days ago, so that makes it more responsive to the actual change in direction, but still filtering out the noise. And so what's really powerful about this is it gives you better data with less perfect adherence. Okay, so if you In other words no, let me restate it If you only weigh yourself occasionally, you're going to get less reliable information than someone who weighs daily.

Philip Pape: 10:22

That's what I'm trying to say. It's kind of this counterintuitive thing, but the math proves it. Just look at how the formula works. It proves it mathematically that if you only sporadically weigh yourself, it's not going to work so well and it's not going to give you a great idea of what's going on. But if you weigh yourself daily, it will. And it's not going to give you a great idea of what's going on, but if you weigh yourself daily it will. So again, with my clients, I kind of get on them a little bit when they miss some days of weighing because I don't want to sound like a tracking Nazi here, but it's actually going to help you. It's going to help you to know am I actually losing fat or gaining fat, so that I can change my calories appropriately.

Philip Pape: 10:55

So how do we apply this in practice appropriately? So how do we apply this in practice? Well, pretty simple. We need to collect enough data points. That means you need to weigh yourself every day, and the best, most reliable way to do that is first thing in the morning, after you use the bathroom, before you eat or drink, wearing the similar clothing or preferably none, or, you know, underwear or something like that and using the same scale. But this is crucial. This is the crucial part. That's all the logistical stuff.

Philip Pape: 11:21

Emotionally, you need to detach emotionally from those individual numbers. Now, when I say you need to detach, like, can you just flip a switch and do that? Of course not. I get that. But over time, as you do it daily, you will detach right, unless something else is going on. You will detach and I see this over and over again as long as you relate it to the why and the trend and are kind of treating the data like it's supposed to be, like it's meant to be like.

Philip Pape: 11:47

These are just data points. They mean nothing. The magic happens when you look at the trend, right. And so, going back to macro factor, it handles this for you, right. It calculates your trend weight and then it uses that along with your food intake to say okay, based on what you're eating and based on what you're weighing, over a long period of two or three weeks, we know that you're actually gaining weight or you're losing weight and therefore we're going to adjust your intake accordingly. Or maybe you're gaining more or less than we thought, so we're going to go up or down with your calories right Now.

Philip Pape: 12:18

This principle can apply to anything, for example, your calories themselves, your calories and macro targets. I don't want you to hit them perfectly. That's impossible. It's the weekly averages that ends up driving your results. So, again, we don't want to obsess over hitting the exact number every day. That's super counterproductive. Some days will be higher, some days will lower.

Philip Pape: 12:38

It is the trend that matters Now. If you're always over, the trend will be high. If you're always under, the trend will be low. But you've got to give yourself some up and down room to navigate, similar in the gym, with your strength. Your performance in a single workout matters far less than your overall volume for the week, your sets for the week, your recovery for the week, the intensity going up session to session. You're going to have bad days, you're going to have great days. Neither of them defines you or your strength level in the moment. It's the trend over time. Look at your, the weights, the working weights and the volumes over days, weeks and months. I can go on. Recovery right.

Philip Pape: 13:15

Individual sleep scores, individual things that your aura ring tells you like oh my God, it's terrible. Your stress levels through the roof. Your HRV is terrible. Don't stress. I mean, one bad night's not going to ruin you. One perfect night's not going to fix everything. You know, one night of catching up on sleep isn't going to matter. It's the patterns over time, right, get those naps in, get the sleep schedule to be consistent, you know, slowly lengthen the amount of hours over time, and I can go on.

Philip Pape: 13:46

Like progress photos same thing like looking at yourself in the mirror every day can be misleading, but like monthly shots, those show the changes. Now, that's kind of a weird example, because I don't want you to take photos every day, because it doesn't work that way with photos, right, it's not like photos average out that it doesn't work that way. But for you to see the changes over time, you're going to need data points over time to compare to, and then even subjective metrics, like the biofeedback that I asked my clients to give me to rate their energy, hunger, mood. I look at them when they check in, but I really care about the trend, because you're going to have stress, you're going to have soreness, you're going to have issues here and there, you're going to get sick, et cetera. It doesn't matter. What matters is the trend over time.

Philip Pape: 14:27

So if you put all this together, what does it look like? You've got to have some sort of tool to track. It could be an app, a spreadsheet, a notebook. Have a system that works for you, I don't care what it is. Establish the protocol, right. When am I going to track it? How am I going to do it? So, for for weight we already talked about that every day in the morning, blah, blah, blah, um. Commit to doing it regularly, right? If it's daily, that makes sense. Do it daily. Consistency matters the most, so don't beat yourself up if you miss one Um, but also allow yourself to see the benefit of doing it as frequently as you think you need to do it like daily for scale, weight and maybe less for other things.

Philip Pape: 15:05

And then you're going to review your data weekly or biweekly and spot the patterns. You're going to look at the trends. That can be a really fun part of it, because now you've got enough data to give you a trend. And now you're like, oh, I'm glad I had all that data right, because otherwise it'd be missing and it wouldn't be able to figure out what's going on. Same thing with me as a coach. It's like if you weren't tracking for the last two weeks, I can't help you as much because I don't have that data. And so then you can make adjustments based on those trends, not the fluctuations, and it helps you avoid the obsessiveness and the emotional response, because now you're like, oh cool, like that early bad night I had, whatever it was eating too much or not getting sleep actually is just kind of some noise. It's noise in the signal, no big deal, right. And so it helps you reduce anxiety and obsession around tracking. That's the magic of this whole thing.

Philip Pape: 15:51

When you understand that the daily numbers are noise, you stop giving them so much emotional power. That's all it is. It's just a false sense of emotional power over you. Then you become more like an engineer or a scientist, right? You're just collecting data points and then you're going to reveal patterns. And this shift in mindset is really liberating. It is really empowering, because suddenly you can enjoy that dinner out without stress you know it's just noise and a larger signal dinner out without stress, you know it's just noise and a larger signal.

Philip Pape: 16:21

You start to see your fitness journey as a data-driven process rather than an emotional roller coaster. So the next time you step on the scale, remember you're not looking at a verdict, a judgment. You're collecting a data point that, combined with many others, dozens, hundreds of others, reveals the true story of your progress. And this isn't about weight tracking, right, this is about the mindset the mindset of an engineer, actually. That's why you listen to me, I think, someone who can look past the daily noise and see the signal that matters, all right.

Philip Pape: 16:50

So if you want to start tracking the smart way, a great way to do that for your food and your weight, which then gives you your metabolism and your targets if you're trying to gain muscle or lose fat, is to download Macrofactor and use code WITSANDWEIGHTS all one word to try it out. You're going to get access to one of the best trend weight and expenditure calculators out there. That's doing it for you as you log your weight, as you log your food. It makes it super easy. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, in fitness as in engineering, the signal is in the noise. You just have to know how to find it. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.