The Surprising 4th Macro That Stalls Fat Loss (and Increases Belly Fat) | Ep 275

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That hidden "4th macro" (beyond protein, fats, and carbs) might be the reason you're not seeing results despite tracking everything else.

Philip exposes how this macro impacts your physique beyond just adding calories. What is is? Alcohol!

Learn the science behind alcohol's effects on fat storage, muscle growth, and metabolism - and discover practical strategies to maintain your social life while achieving your physique goals.

Main Takeaways:

• Your body handles alcohol completely differently from any other macronutrient

• Alcohol affects your physique through multiple mechanisms beyond just calories

• The timing of your drinks matters more than you might think

• Exercise changes how your body processes alcohol in a surprising way

• Daily habits matter more than occasional indulgences

• Small strategic changes can lead to significant improvements

Timestamps:

[00:01] Introduction to the concept of a "fourth macro" disrupting fat loss progress
[02:28] Breaking down alcohol's unique properties compared to other macronutrients
[05:23] How alcohol reduces muscle protein synthesis by 24%
[07:21] Research on alcohol's relationship with visceral fat storage
[09:25] Strategic approaches to minimize alcohol's impact on physique goals
[12:14] Practical tips for reducing alcohol consumption
[15:13] Handling social pressure and building alcohol-free habits
[16:41] The surprising connection between exercise and alcohol processing
[18:31] Three-phase framework for managing alcohol while pursuing fitness goals
[20:38] Final thoughts on prioritizing what matters for your physique

The 4th Macro Sabotaging Your Fat Loss and Fitness Goals

When we talk about macros, the usual suspects come to mind—protein, fats, and carbs. But what if I told you there’s a sneaky “fourth macro” that could be the reason your fat loss has stalled, your midsection isn’t budging, and your muscle gains are taking a hit?

That’s right, I’m talking about alcohol, the often-overlooked macronutrient with seven calories per gram that’s wreaking havoc on body composition goals.

Here’s how alcohol disrupts your progress and what you can do to minimize its impact while still enjoying life.

What Makes Alcohol the “Fourth Macro”?

Alcohol has 7 calories per gram, placing it between carbs and protein (4 calories/gram) and fat (9 calories/gram) in energy density. But that’s where the similarity ends.

Unlike the other macros, your body has no storage mechanism for alcohol. It sees alcohol as a toxin and prioritizes metabolizing it immediately, sidelining everything else.

This metabolic priority creates a cascade of effects that sabotage your fat loss and muscle-building goals.

How Alcohol Impacts Fat Burning

A study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition found that alcohol suppresses fat oxidation (a fancy way of saying “fat burning”) by up to 73% for four to six hours after drinking. Think about that: for hours after you enjoy a couple of drinks, your body essentially pauses its fat-burning efforts.

During this time, the calories from your food—carbs, fats, and even protein—are more likely to be stored as fat since your body is busy processing alcohol. This is like a metabolic traffic jam where alcohol gets the fast lane while everything else is stuck waiting.

The Triple Threat: Muscle, Fat, and Hormones

The effects of alcohol go beyond fat storage.

1. Muscle Protein Synthesis (MPS)

MPS, the process your body uses to build and repair muscle, takes a major hit from alcohol. A landmark study in PLOS ONE found that alcohol consumption post-workout reduced MPS by 24%, even when subjects consumed enough protein. Translation? If you’re drinking after training, you’re undoing some of the hard work you put into the gym.

2. Hormonal Chaos

Alcohol disrupts hormone production, particularly testosterone, a key player in muscle building and fat loss. Studies show testosterone levels can drop by 23% after regular alcohol consumption. Women experience hormonal interference too, with impacts on testosterone and other key hormones.

3. Visceral Fat Accumulation

Alcohol has a dose-dependent relationship with visceral fat (the dangerous fat around your organs). Men who consume more than 14 drinks per week have 30.7% more visceral fat volume compared to non-drinkers. This isn’t the fat you pinch; it’s the deep belly fat associated with serious health risks.

Does Tracking Alcohol as Calories Solve the Problem?

Many people assume they can account for alcohol’s effects by tracking it in their calorie target. While this approach might help with calorie control, alcohol’s impact goes far beyond energy balance. Its hormonal disruptions, suppressed fat burning, and interference with muscle recovery make it a much more complex issue.

Practical Strategies to Minimize Alcohol’s Impact

1. Be Strategic About Timing

• Avoid drinking on training days. Alcohol reduces muscle recovery, so drinking after a workout is a double hit.

• Limit drinking to rest days to minimize its impact on performance and recovery.

2. Moderation is Key

• Every drink you skip is a win for your physique goals.

• Set reasonable limits. For example, aim for one to two drinks per month if body composition is your primary goal.

3. Social Strategies

• Have a go-to non-alcoholic drink like sparkling water with lime or a non-alcoholic beer.

• Be the designated driver—it’s a built-in excuse not to drink.

• Suggest non-drinking social activities like hikes or workouts with friends.

Alcohol Becomes Less Appealing Over Time

As you progress in your fitness journey, something interesting happens: alcohol naturally becomes less appealing. When your training, nutrition, and recovery are dialed in, the short-term pleasure of alcohol often pales in comparison to how good you feel when you’re performing well and seeing results.

This isn’t about perfection or total abstinence (unless that’s your choice). It’s about aligning your actions with what’s most important to you—your health, fitness, and longevity.

My Final Thoughts

Alcohol isn’t just another macronutrient; it’s a disruptor that can stall your fat loss, reduce muscle growth, and lead to long-term health risks.

The good news is, you don’t need to eliminate it completely. With strategic timing, moderation, and better habits, you can still enjoy the occasional drink without derailing your progress.

Remember, every drink you skip is a step closer to your goals.

The key is understanding how alcohol affects your body and making informed choices that support the results you’re working so hard to achieve.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

There are three macros, right Protein, fats and carbs and you might be tracking them. You're tracking your calories, your training, but something's off. The fat loss has stalled, maybe around your midsection, and the culprit might be a hidden fourth macro that's wreaking havoc on your body composition. This often overlooked factor is doing more than just adding calories it's actively interfering with your metabolism, muscle growth and fat storage patterns. Today, we're uncovering the science behind how the fourth macro disrupts your progress and what to do about it. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:54

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today's episode comes from an important question in our Facebook community. Jerry asked about alcohol's impact on body composition beyond just calories, and it's a really good question, because we are always obsessed over protein, fats and carbs, and alcohol does act like a fourth macronutrient in some ways. That might surprise you, and the truth is, most of us, myself included, have been pretty misled about alcohol's effects on our physicals especially, and if not misled, then maybe the information just isn't out there. We've heard everything from you know it's no big deal as long as it fits your macros to even unhelpful information now that can be damaging, like red wine is good for your heart. So today I'm going to break down what the evidence actually says about alcohol's impact on the things that we really care about here fat loss, muscle gain, body composition so you know you can make an informed decision. Now, before we dig into that science I mentioned, this question comes from someone in our Facebook group. If you want to connect with Jerry or anyone else who's trying to optimize their nutrition and training, they're sharing their progress. They're sharing their progress. They're sharing tips. They'll answer your questions. You can get form checks, all this fun stuff using the evidence, using good, solid training methodologies. Join our free Facebook group. Just search for Wits and Weights on Facebook or click the link in the show notes and you will find a supportive community, like-minded people just like you, most of whom listen to this podcast and just want to help each other succeed.

Philip Pape: 2:28

All right, let's start by breaking down what makes alcohol unique compared to other macros. Alcohol is definitely a macro. It has seven calories per gram in terms of its density, its energy content. In terms of its density, its energy content. And so it sits between protein and carbs, which those have four calories per gram, and then fat has nine calories per gram, so it's in between, but that's where the similarities end. Okay, I don't want you to think of it as like the other macros, because your body handles alcohol completely different from any other nutrients, and understanding that is really important.

Philip Pape: 3:05

First, let's talk about what happens when you consume regular macros. When you consume protein, carbs and fats, your body can store all of those nutrients. Carbs get stored as glycogen in your muscles and liver. Fat gets stored in adipose tissue. Protein gets broken down and used to build or repair tissues. So your body has options and it can process these nutrients at its own pace.

Philip Pape: 3:29

Alcohol is a completely different story. Listen up, okay. Your body does not have a storage mechanism for alcohol Zero. It views alcohol as a toxin that must be cleared from your system immediately. Right, and this isn't about preference, it's a biological imperative. Your liver drops everything else it is doing to deal with the alcohol first, and this metabolic priority then creates a cascade of effects that directly impact your body composition.

Philip Pape: 3:59

Research published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition shows that alcohol suppresses fat oxidation. That means fat burning by up to 73% for four to six hours after you drink. Think about that. For up to six hours after having drinks with your dinner, your body basically stops burning fat. But it gets worse Because during that time, guess what happens to all the other calories you consume, all those carbs and fats that you're eating alongside your drinks, or even just your regular meals. They are more likely to be stored as fat because your body's too busy dealing with the alcohol. So it's like having this traffic jam in your metabolism where everything backs up while there's one priority vehicle alcohol. Maybe, know, maybe Elon Musk owns the alcohol company, I don't know, but it has priority everything, everything else, and it gets through. Now you might be thinking, okay, but what if I account for the calories from alcohol in my daily target? Right, if I, I should just track it right. And that is a great question. And it leads us to the next point point, because even if you could perfectly account for the calories, alcohol still affects your body composition through multiple other mechanisms that have nothing to do with calories. So let's get into that and talk about kind of the triple threat here between muscle, fat and hormones. As it relates to alcohol.

Philip Pape: 5:23

We're going to start with muscle protein synthesis. That is, the process of building and maintaining muscle mass. You might have seen it abbreviated MPS, right, and that's all it is. It's building muscle. And there was a landmark study in PLOS1, I never know how to pronounce it, plos1, that found that alcohol consumption decreased exercise induced muscle protein synthesis by about 24% when subjects consumed alcohol post-workout. Now I know we're not all just like chugging down a glass of whiskey or a beer right after a workout although I have done my share of obstacle course races in the past and got my free beer and I can tell you that was a pleasurable experience but still, we're not all doing that. But regardless, 24% drop in muscle protein synthesis after having a drink after exercise like that's a huge reduction in your body's ability to do the thing that you just trained for build and repair muscle, even when you're eating enough protein and training Like that's crazy. So put that in perspective. Imagine you just finished a training session. You spent 90 minutes with your squats, with your deadlifts, with, with your, all your accessories, right, and you you even hit your protein target for the day. You're eating plenty and you're feeling great. Then you have a few drinks with dinner, so maybe you're training in the afternoon, even though you did everything else right, you've just cut your potential muscle gains for that session by nearly a quarter, according to this research Um, you research, and I know we're not.

Philip Pape: 6:52

I mean, it depends on how often you do it right, how much you drink and all of that. But the impact goes beyond and I want to kind of stack on top of that it's beyond just the protein synthesis, because it also affects your hormones. It affects your testosterone levels and, as you surmise, not in a good way. Research shows that regular alcohol consumption can suppress testosterone production by up to 23% in men, and then for women, even though the impact is a little bit less dramatic, it still interferes with testosterone, as well as other hormones that affect body composition.

Philip Pape: 7:21

And then let's look at fat storage, because it gets interesting here as well. There's research in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition that shows that regular alcohol consumption has a dose-dependent relationship with visceral fat, that is, the dangerous fat around your organs, your belly fat, and men consuming more than 14 drinks per week had 30.7% more visceral fat volume compared to non-drinkers. Right, and that is not just the subcutaneous fat that you can pinch, it is the deep belly fat that is associated with serious health risks. It isn't just a function of these guys gaining more weight. It is a separate variable that is very important to get into your brain, like I've.

Philip Pape: 8:08

This is one of the primary reasons I've all but cut off alcohol. I admit I still have a drink every now and then. Once a month I'll have a drink. I mean it is so rare compared to what it used to be for many of these reasons. And then there's something that doesn't take. It doesn't get talked about enough how alcohol impacts your stress response, because when you drink, your body produces more cortisol, the stress hormone. We think of alcohol as this downer. It like relaxes you and everything, but it actually makes you more stress on the whole. High cortisol levels are associated then with guess what? Increased belly fat storage and reduced muscle mass. Double, triple, quadruple, whammy. I mean you do the math. You're not just dealing with direct effects of alcohol, but then this hormonal cascade that creates an environment perfect for fat storage and muscle loss.

Philip Pape: 8:57

Come on, guys, are you getting the picture? That is not what we want, right? And I did this episode because I didn't want to say, hey, alcohol's poison, it's toxic, you shouldn't drink it. I actually wanted to come to it from the other direction of no-transcript. If you care about these things, it's up to you how much. Or if you want to drink alcohol, right, that's it. I'm not coming to it from the judgment or shame perspective, but from the physiology, the anatomy, the biology perspective, all right.

Philip Pape: 9:25

So what do we do with all this information? Right, I'm not here to tell you never to drink again. I know that's not realistic for most people and, quite frankly, it's not necessary for the vast majority of us to achieve our goals. Oh boy, I said it. Yes, I said it, and I know I've had some guests on who've talked about total abstinence from alcohol and that is totally an option for you, absolutely an option. I would totally encourage that if you want to do that. But I'm talking realistic pragmatism here and I know not everybody's going to do that. So instead, let's talk about strategic approaches to minimize alcohol's impact on your physique goals. We'll start there and if you decide you want to totally abstain because at the end of the day that will get you the most benefit, that is up to you.

Philip Pape: 10:08

So first, let's talk about timing. If you're going to drink, do it on rest days, don't do it on training days. If we're to believe the 24% reduction in muscle synthesis. You don't do it on training days, right? If we're to believe the 24% reduction in muscle synthesis, you don't want that happening right after a good workout. Now, it's going to happen whenever you drink. So just know that on the net it's still going to have an impact. But if you train on your off day, that might be a little bit better than training right after you work out or on your training day. But not only that your performance in the gym is going to suffer if you're training while your body is still processing alcohol. So don't do it on, like the evening before your training day either. If you train in the morning, just be smart about it and separate it.

Philip Pape: 10:46

And I see this with clients, right? They hit a great workout, a great training session on Friday. Then they go out for drinks that night and then they're like I'm kind of weak and unmotivated on Saturday. Well, what the heck? You just had a bunch of drinks Friday night, right? It's not just in your head. Your body is literally still dealing with the metabolic aftermath of the drinks.

Philip Pape: 11:04

Um, which, by the way, it doesn't necessarily happen if you have like a massive buffet or Chinese food. Many times you go into the gym next day and you're like super energized from that. So that's why there's a difference between these things. Um, the second is the amount, the quantity. Right, we know that there's a clear dose dependent relationship with the negative effects and, by the way, I should have put this disclaimer early on.

Philip Pape: 11:27

If you struggle with alcohol, if there's alcoholism in your family or yourself or any, I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole. It is outside my scope to deal with actually alcoholism and alcohol dependency. This episode is not for you. This is about just understanding the relationships between moderate alcohol consumption and your body. Okay, so the dose dependent relationships. So every drink that you don't have is a win for your physique. I want you to remember that Every drink you choose not to have. So if you were gonna have like five beers in a row but you decide every other beer is an alcohol-free beer, count those as wins for your physique, and you might be rolling your eyes at this point thinking, okay, again, here's the lecture about never drinking again.

Philip Pape: 12:14

But that's not what I'm suggesting. I want you to set some reasonable limits based on your goals. So if you're serious about body composition, I would limit yourself to one to two drinks per month. And if that sounds crazy, if that sounds extreme for you and I've been there I used to have a glass of wine every night and I used to have like five, six beers on the weekend and I gradually weaned myself off and started to swap things out. So what do you do? Well, you start by cutting your current intake by a percentage of that, like maybe in half, and observe the changes, and then you might be surprised how much better you feel and perform Right, and the way I would do that is I wouldn't just say, okay, if you drink two drinks every day, drink one drink every day.

Philip Pape: 12:51

I might want to drink, like you know, half the days or something like that, but do whatever makes sense to you. Um, you know, one of our, one of our members in our in um, my group program, the physique university, had some struggles with drinking and and you know I see this a lot, right, I see this a lot it's like everything else starts to get dialed in and drinking still is a challenge, and so she simply moved from drinking every weekend every other weekend. So she still accepted the fact that she wanted to go out with her girlfriends to the pub and really enjoy the craft beers, but it would be every other weekend and the weeks where she didn't drink she was like holy moly, I have way better recovery, my walks feel great, I feel like just more up to doing things, my training's consistent, I'm hitting PRs, I'm actually I can lose weight, my metabolism goes up, and then it kind of slides back a little bit on the weeks where she would drink. So that's what I mean by kind of alternating, to see the contrast in your own self and let that data drive you to your decision-making. And then as far as the social strategies, I think that's where most people struggle the most, because it's rarely about that physical craving for alcohol, right, or the physical hunger, whatever you wanna call it. It's the social pressure, it's the habits that we built around drinking. So what do we do about that?

Philip Pape: 14:06

All right, first have a go-to non-alcoholic drink ready to go right, and it could be something, not even in the realm of alcohol, like sparkling water with lime or a seltzer or something you know, not hard seltzer, but a regular seltzer, diet soda, something that looks like a drink. No one questions it. You're at the party, they think it's a rum and coke, whatever. Who cares Not that it should matter, but I know a lot of us care. So that's where I'm starting from. And then, guess what? You stay hydrated too, so probably makes things. You could maybe have the food. You stay hydrated, you enjoy yourself. Don't get as buzzed if if it's mixed in with alcoholic beverages and you're cutting down, um. But here's the thing there are also lots of options with the rise of these non-alcoholic uh, craft beverages, beers and mixed liquors and even wines. So, uh, going with a non-alcoholic beer is a great option these days. Seriously, it tastes, they taste pretty good. So if you just like the ritual and the taste of beer, that alone could be enough for you to say, ah, this is pretty close to it. I'm just not getting that buzz, but I'm also not getting all the terrible after effects and effects on my body composition later either. Um.

Philip Pape: 15:13

The second thing is you don't have to explain yourself to anyone. You just don't write a simple like hey, I'm good with water tonight is enough. If someone's pushing you to drink, it's. It's more about them. It's about their relationship with alcohol, their insecurities. It's not you. Right now you can be strategic. You can volunteer to be the designated driver, and then you know, they know you can't drink or say, hey, I have, I have an early morning training session, like that's important to me, I'm just not drinking. Cause that if you have to give a reason there's, there's a strategic way to do it. And then the third thing here is you know why don't you build connections with people and activities that don't revolve around drinking it and activities that don't revolve around drinking it might sound obvious, but I think that's powerful, right? Instead of meeting friends for drinks, suggest going on a hike or doing a training session together, or a lunch where you're having food but not drinks. I mean, you be the judge. And then you'd be amazed at how many people are actually relieved to have social options that don't involve alcohol.

Philip Pape: 16:10

It's funny part of my wife's family. They stay away from alcohol because there's a history there, and so when we go to parties with them, it's just I remember early on being a little frustrated. I'm like, where's the cooler with the beers? Where where's the wine? And after a couple of those I just didn't think about it and I would go and guess what. We have fun, it's no big deal. You enjoy it. You have diet soda, you have the cake. Right, you throw the football around, whatever, and you have fun. You don't need the alcohol, um, so so that's kind of. Hopefully I didn't get too judge judgmental there. Hopefully that was a reasonable take on this subject.

Philip Pape: 16:41

Uh, and I think if, if you, if you think about alcohol and training, um, it's if you link them together, I think it's going to be helpful, because we know the research shows that regular exercise changes how your body even processes alcohol. Like you actually become better at clearing it, which is not an encouragement to drink more, but it does potentially reduce the negative effects on body composition. It might explain why some, like active, healthy people, seem to handle alcohol better than others. And again, it doesn't mean you should drink more. It suggests that maintaining your training routine becomes even more important. If you choose to drink occasionally, right, you're building a better defense system against the negative effects of really anything you put into your body. It's like having a better cleanup crew right, better, better detox crew in your body. And it like having a better cleanup crew, right, better detox crew in your body. And it explains something that I've noticed with clients over the years that those who maintain consistent training schedules they go to the gym, they put in the work. Even if they do keep drinking moderately, right, they tend to maintain better body composition. They can lose fat. Yes, they can have a-pack abs. Then those who are intermittent with their training but strict about alcohol Now, process that. It's not that the alcohol becomes harmless, it's that the positive adaptations from regular training provide some protection against the negative effects, because you're, overall, a healthier person on the net, which again is a good theme to remember when we talk about moderation and balance, and even when it comes to your food and your indulgences, that, yes, you can have some vices in there. I'm not going to tell you one way or the other, just know the impact and also prioritize being a healthy, fit person, all right. So this episode is getting long in the tooth, but I think it's a really important topic and I want to help you create a practical framework for managing this while pursuing your physique goals.

Philip Pape: 18:31

So three phases I wrote down here. First one is you want to do an audit, an assessment, take an honest look at your current health. Just be honest with yourself, right? How many drinks per week? When do you typically drink? What triggers the desire to drink? Do not judge yourself, just gather the data like we would with anything else we do here. It's data tracking.

Philip Pape: 18:52

Phase two is strategic reduction. Right, this isn't going cold turkey. It's making those intentional choices that are really easy, like switching one drink per week to a non-alcoholic or moving your drinking days away from your training days. Phase three is then building the new habits. Right, and this may be a little harder for some of us, but it's where things get sustainable.

Philip Pape: 19:12

Find the go-to non-alcoholic drink that you identified in phase two. Build connections that don't revolve around alcohol so you don't have as much temptation, and then create routines that don't involve drinking, just in general, things that help you relieve stress, because a lot of you are like well, I drink to relieve stress. There are a million ways to relieve stress that don't have super negative effects that ultimately increase your stress, and remember that one Alcohol actually increases your cortisol. So the key to all of this is progress, progress, progress. It's not perfection. Every drink you don't have is a win for your physique goals. Remember that Every time you choose water instead of wine, you're giving your body a better chance to build muscle and burn fat efficiently, if that is your goal.

Philip Pape: 19:49

So the fourth macro remember that this is the fourth macro, alcohol. It is unique, right, especially if you're trying to be fitter and leaner and more healthy and live a long life. Understanding the mechanisms empowers you to make informed choices. It's not about complete restriction, at least not off the bat. Ultimately, if you want to do that for alcohol specifically, I don't think that's a bad idea. But it's really aligning your actions with what's important right now, right. And when you understand how alcohol affects your body at a biological level. By the way, share this episode with somebody else who needs to understand this or maybe just doesn't know or thinks that there's something good about alcohol. Then you can make decisions that support your goals, just like anything else where we try to get more educated. And then you find that you know, as your physique gets better, your training progresses.

Philip Pape: 20:38

Guess what's going to happen? This happened to me, happens to so many people. The drinks become less appealing. You just want them less Again. The occasional whiskey or whatever you enjoy. I still do that. I get it. But it's not because you're restricting yourself that you avoid those things. It's because you're prioritizing what really matters to you above that. All right. If you found value in today's episode and again you want to connect with others like Jerry on their fitness journey.

Philip Pape: 21:02

Join our Facebook group. Just search for Wits and Weights or click the link in the episode notes and hop on into the group Once I approve you in there, which is usually pretty quickly. Share your thoughts on this episode, right, Say hey, I found you through the alcohol episode and it was interesting and I want to continue the conversation. Right, and hey, I'd love to hear your strategies for managing alcohol, if that's specifically what you're looking for. Uh, but there's lots of other topics we cover in the group, so join to check those out. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, sometimes the best gains come from what you choose not to consume. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How to Stop Your Fitness Goals from Destroying Your Relationship (EJ and Tarah Kerwin) | Ep 274

Join our free Facebook group to continue this conversation and connect with others who are building their best health and physique. You’ll get exclusive content, live Q&As, and free nutrition and training guides.

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Is your fitness journey unintentionally straining your relationships? How can you pursue personal goals while maintaining emotional intimacy? What systems can help couples thrive in both their health and love lives?

Philip (@witsandweights) explores the intersection of fitness and relationships with EJ and Tarah Kerwin, licensed therapists and co-hosts of the Relationship Renovation Podcast. Together, they uncover practical tools for navigating conflicts, aligning goals, and fostering collaboration in your fitness journey without sacrificing connection with your partner.

Discover how to avoid common pitfalls, communicate more effectively, and build systems that honor your individuality while strengthening your bond. Whether you're meal prepping or juggling gym schedules with kids, this episode offers essential strategies for harmony in both your fitness and personal lives.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:45 Relationship dynamics and connection with fitness and nutrition
6:38 Managing different schedules and priorities with adaptiveness and intention
10:06 Creating collaborative systems as a couple
13:23 Plan, predict, and prepare
16:25 Maintaining emotional and physical intimacy during intense fitness phases
18:21 Balancing parenting, meeting needs, and gym time
22:21 Recognizing how to show support in coupleship
26:14 Agreement boundaries in coaching dynamics
31:06 Addressing body image and emotional triggers
35:09 Communication strategies, triggers, and boundaries around fitness and nutrition goals
44:02 Navigating differences in parenting and shared values evolve over time
49:13 How vows and flexibility support long-term relationships
53:48 Rapid-fire questions
57:45 Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: relationshiprenovation.com

• Podcast: relationshiprenovation.com/podcast 
  

How to Pursue Fitness Goals Without Destroying Your Relationship

Pursuing fitness goals like building muscle, losing fat, or dialing in nutrition can be life-changing. But what happens when your partner isn’t on the same page? If your fitness journey starts creating tension at home, it’s time to reevaluate your approach. In this blog, we’ll dive into actionable strategies to achieve your fitness goals without sacrificing connection, using insights from licensed counselors EJ and Tarah Kerwin.

Why Fitness Can Strain Relationships

When one partner starts taking fitness seriously—meal prepping, counting macros, or hitting the gym regularly—it can leave the other partner feeling neglected or left behind. Common sources of tension include:

• Different eating habits, like one partner sticking to a strict meal plan while the other enjoys takeout.

• Conflicting schedules, especially if workouts take priority over shared time.

• A lack of communication about how these goals affect the relationship.

These issues don’t mean your fitness goals are the problem. Instead, they’re an opportunity to strengthen your relationship by getting intentional about balancing priorities.

Build Systems for Collaboration

The key to balancing fitness and relationships lies in building systems that work for both of you. EJ and Tarah recommend these strategies:

Daily Check-ins

Spend five minutes every day sharing how you’re feeling and what your goals are for the day. This small habit can help align priorities, minimize misunderstandings, and create a sense of teamwork.

Plan, Predict, Prepare

Adopt the "plan, predict, prepare" framework for everything from gym schedules to meal prep. Anticipate potential points of conflict and create solutions in advance, like alternating gym times or meal prepping together to stay connected.

Set Clear Boundaries

If one partner wants to help coach the other, make sure it’s a mutual decision with clear boundaries. Avoid letting fitness become a source of criticism or control—it should always be about support.

Addressing Mismatched Fitness Goals

It’s common for one partner to be more invested in fitness than the other, which can create friction. To avoid resentment, focus on acceptance and curiosity instead of judgment.

Ask questions to understand your partner’s perspective:

• "What’s been your experience with fitness lately?"

• "How can I support you without pushing my own goals onto you?"

This approach turns potential conflict into an opportunity to connect, while allowing each person to maintain their individuality.

Don’t Let Fitness Hurt Intimacy

Extreme fitness goals, like contest prep or cutting phases, can strain emotional and physical intimacy. The Kerwins recommend soft, empathetic communication to stay connected during high-stress phases:

• Use “I” statements to express concern, e.g., “I’ve noticed you seem more stressed lately. Is there something I can do to help?”

• Avoid criticism or defensiveness. Instead, focus on curiosity, e.g., “What’s driving you to push so hard right now?”

Fitness should enhance your life—not put up walls between you and your partner.

Adapt to Life’s Changes

Your relationship, like your fitness goals, will evolve over time. Injuries, schedule changes, and family priorities all come into play. A strong relationship isn’t about avoiding challenges but navigating them together.

Think about your fitness journey and relationship as part of a long-term plan. If something isn’t working—whether it’s a workout routine or a shared responsibility—adjust and move forward. Remember, flexibility is key to sustainability in both fitness and relationships.

Actionable Tips to Balance Fitness and Relationships

1. Make Fitness a Team Effort
   Even if your partner doesn’t share your goals, find ways to involve them. For example, meal prep together, even if you’re eating different foods.

2. Be Curious, Not Critical
   When conflicts arise, approach your partner with curiosity instead of judgment. Ask open-ended questions and listen to their concerns.

3. Protect Time for Connection
   Don’t let gym time or meal prep come at the expense of emotional intimacy. Schedule quality time together, even if it’s as simple as a nightly walk or cooking a shared meal.

4. Communicate Your Why
   Share why your fitness goals matter to you and how they align with your shared values as a couple. This builds mutual understanding and support.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've noticed your relationships becoming strained as you pursue your fitness goals or your partner seems distant or resentful about your dedication to training and nutrition, or even if you're struggling to balance your physical pursuits with your emotional connections, this episode is for you. Today, we're discussing the often ignored impact that pursuing fitness can have on our closest relationships, and how to prevent your path to a better body from leading to a broken connection. Whether you're meal prepping while your partner orders takeout or spending Saturday mornings at the gym instead of enjoying time together, what we're about to share will help you achieve your fitness goals while strengthening, not sacrificing, your relationships. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:59

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are exploring that delicate balance between fitness goals and relationship health with EJ and Tara Kerwin. Now, ej is a licensed professional counselor and Tara is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and as co-founders of the Relationship Renovation Counseling Center and hosts of the very popular Relationship Renovation podcast, go make sure to follow that. They have helped many couples work through the challenges of pursuing individual goals while maintaining strong emotional connections. Today, you'll learn how to maintain that emotional intimacy while pursuing your physique goals, how to turn potential sources of conflict into opportunities to connect, and specific tools for building a stronger relationship through your fitness journey. Ej Tara, welcome to the show.

Tarah Kerwin: 1:47

Thank you so much for having us. We're very excited to be here.

EJ Kerwin: 1:50

Yeah, nice to meet you, Philip. We are excited to have this conversation.

Philip Pape: 1:57

And I'm going to say this as a first, guys, because we were talking before we recorded that we talk about the nuts and bolts of fitness all the time but never quite get into relationships much more than surface level. So I wanted to have you on to get into that, because I see something all the time with my nutrition clients and I hear it from listeners that, for example, one partner is tracking their macros, their meal prepping, they're using a food scale, they're training, they're changing all their habits right, and the other is at some level not that they either they're not fully on board or they're far from that behavior and there's a huge disconnect. I guess I want to start with that dynamic, the relationship dynamic in that situation, so that people listening can say, okay, I kind of fall into that bucket, and then we can talk about what couples can do about it. You can just share with us your experience with that dynamic.

EJ Kerwin: 2:48

Well, I mean on the personal level. We've just seen it over. You know we've been together over a decade and both of us have had times where we've trained for marathons, you know, embarked on like personal journeys around, whether it be weight loss or toning or whatever. And how much more effective it is when we're both sort of in it together, you know it just makes it a hell of a lot easier. Like you said, if you're eating the same way and so you're meal prepping together, it makes it easier. And then we've also had times where you know there's an injury or there's just a lack of motivation from one of us and that that can not just like make it harder to achieve your goals but also create like disruption and just how we're getting along.

Tarah Kerwin: 3:31

Well, and what? The first thing I think is when EJ and I first started dating, I was a big runner and he's like Tara I hate running, so don't ever expect me to be a runner and I was like, oh, I would, I would never do that, like right. But this relationship, just like we're trying to get in shape with our body, and that's its own system. The relationship is a system and if you don't have skillful ways of making that collaborative, then people will be in it alone. And then that's what we see when couples come in and they're alone in their wellness journey.

Tarah Kerwin: 4:02

Maybe one's got more motivation than the other, but they're not talking about it, they're not sharing their experiences, they're not in this place of acceptance around. Maybe I am more motivated to eat healthier this year, but this person isn't. But how can we create systems that feel cooperative, collaborative so that we can still both support each other and not judge each other to make it feel like we're in it alone? And again, the couples we see they're in it alone. Maybe one person's really healthy and fit, the other person's not so motivated, for whatever transition timing, whatever it may be, for a myriad of reasons, and they, like, are fighting against it, like how dare you want me to change and why don't you want to be healthier and you're just like you guys? How do we get in this together so both of you can get your needs met even though they're differently? Like we can, this can happen. I know that's like a long answer to your no it's beautiful.

Philip Pape: 4:58

There's so many gems in there. One thing you said was skillful ways of making it collaborative and making systems, and just because you have maybe slightly different goals or your different times in your life and this evolves through a relationship. I know for a fact I've been married to almost 20 years and I can tell you that we both have changed quite a bit since then, and it's cool. We both have different goals at any one point and the telling someone right off the bat this is what I like, this is what I don't right Honest communication, just so that you can get on the same page, because, who knows, maybe it is a deal breaker for, like getting married, that hey, you don't like to run, forget it, that's you don't like to climb mountains.

Philip Pape: 5:37

I don't know, but it sounds like communication is obviously going to be important part of this, and also supporting each other regardless and there's going to be a lot of personal stuff for me that comes out of this conversation, which I'm sure you get that a lot where I think about.

Philip Pape: 5:51

I'm huge into lifting my wife she strength trains, but she's more into cardio type stuff and we've realized that what we want to do is just support each other, whatever that means for that, and by doing that you then tend to get a little more openness on both sides to what the other is doing and curiosity, I guess I would say Absolutely. So then what happens when this goes to that level of a wide chasm? Right, when one partner gets very serious you mentioned before we recorded a bodybuilding competitor and we talk about this show of physique development where it gets really. When you get super serious about it, it's an extreme and a lot of things fall to a lower priority. Can you do that sustainably while still being in a relationship and how does that happen? How does that work?

EJ Kerwin: 6:38

Well, I mean, I think a number of things falls into this category, and and certainly fitness, and and then like training for serious fitness goals, definitely, and and the negative dynamic that often happens is we are, uh, adaptive creatures, you know, we, but we oftentimes adapt unintentionally, right, and so, like in this case that we were talking about earlier, we there was one member of the couple who you know, who did competition, you know where the physique competitions, and so they would go through like a two month cutting period, I think it was, and what they said was like, basically, what happens is, during that cutting period, the one partner just became a bear, you know, and was just like you know. Cause they were, they were at a calorie deficit and so their mood was deteriorated, you know they, they bordered on depression, because when you're, when you're not, when you're not feeding yourself, you can get depressed, you can get anxious, and the way they unconsciously adapted was they would just basically avoid each other for two months.

Tarah Kerwin: 7:44

But the one thing that would happen is she would be alone in it every day because of the guilt she would have for like being a bear, but just would not talk about it. So he would just. He just learned, like just don't stay away, we will not have a relationship.

Tarah Kerwin: 7:57

For two months We'll live together. I'll help her do the meal prep. But other than that, like but she was still alone in her suffering and he felt super alone, Like he wanted to support her and be like hey, I got you, but she had all this shame around being such a bear that she would push him away.

EJ Kerwin: 8:15

And so. So our goal with couples oftentimes is like looking at okay, one's what, what are the ways that you've adapted? Adapted without intentionality? Okay, what didn't work about that? All right, let's create a new system. Right, like, okay, you want to support your partner. You know you go through mood changes. Well, let's make really intentional decisions around that. And that's a big thing that we help couples overcome in multiple ways is just getting like intentional and making decisions that make sense and that keep you emotionally connected. Because what we find happens is first, like that couple, they become emotionally distant from one another because they're not checking in, but then eventually what it leads to is physical disconnection, is like they stop having sex because you know your partner might look fantastic, but if every interaction you have with them is either negative or you're just not talking to them, what are the chances your sex life is going to stay positive?

Philip Pape: 9:19

Yeah, you talked about being adaptive creatures and not doing it with intentionality, and that's that's what appeals to me. Here is again the theme that you don't have to abandon these pursuits. It's just what are you doing to make them intentional, and I suppose that there will be. That would then open up conversation to other trade-offs or compromises that both sides need to make. So, for example, if that person you were talking about the competitor, that's the woman in the relationship right, she was the competitor.

Philip Pape: 9:49

Yep, and she's like look, I have to weigh all my food on a food scale every time I eat. How does that affect when they get together to eat, or do they eat separately? Like I'm curious about the details of how that looked and how they dealt with that. You said they were having issues, but did they resolve those issues and then what did that look like?

Tarah Kerwin: 10:06

So I'm going to bleed this into another couple that I actually directly work with around this, and what would happen is he is meat potatoes kind of dude, like loves his cheese on his potatoes. She went through the six month hardcore training and food, like counting her macros, micros, all of that. And so at first, right, they came in because he was like I'm not eating that crap that you prepared, right? So, anyway, they started having all of this conflict and I was like, okay, hold on a second, let's just get down to what are each of your needs. His need was cause she was the cooker. She cooked every meal for him. He worked nine to five job. She got off earlier so she would cook the meals.

Tarah Kerwin: 10:51

So what we did is we started to come up with agreements. What was he willing to do? What was she willing to do? What was he willing to eat that was clean? What was she willing to eat Maybe one day a week that wasn't so clean, because she got to have like a little cheat day, if that's what this one coach called it. And so we literally sat for a three-hour session and came up with a system every single day for this couple so that both of them would feel they were winning, so they would do a bunch of the meal prep on Sunday for both of them together, and that way they're still eating together, but they might be eating different meals. But now, even though he wasn't in it with her, she felt like, oh my gosh, he's still willing to meal prep with me on Sunday, cause I can't do all of this like two separate meals breakfast, um, lunch and dinner by myself.

Tarah Kerwin: 11:42

And they like literally it was like one or two sessions and they had they not come in. I can tell you, cause we've seen this too they're in a place of resignation. This will never change. This person isn't for me. I don't want to do this anymore. And I was like I helped them be in this place of acceptance, like, look, your wife is going through this program. She's really motivated. I know it's changing your lifestyle completely. It's not forever. What are you willing to do to be in this place of acceptance instead of powerlessness? And when you kind of use that language from like disempowered to empowered, people like, oh, it's like you don't even think about it. It's like the situation is the same, but you could either resign to it and become a victim of it, or you could be like how can I accept that this is our situation right now and how can we work together to the best of our ability to come up with agreements that feel good for both of us?

Philip Pape: 12:32

Yeah, I like the idea of the agreements, because those difficult conversations it's just what they are, I mean again speaking from personal experience and my wife is great at initiating those and I've learned to initiate them because you know, guys and women often don't approach that in different ways and it's like you get the pit of your stomach. You're dreading it all day. If you want to have this conversation, especially if you don't have the support or maybe therapist to kind of make you do it if you will for lack of a better term but then it's like many things that you dread it's. It's kind of tell me if I'm wrong, but it's almost like overblown. Once you get through it you realize that actually wasn't as big a deal, but it's going to make a massive improvement because we labeled these specific things. Like you said, we're going to agree on exactly what we want to eat and we'll know that about each other and then we're going to do the things together, even if we don't eat the same thing, right?

Tarah Kerwin: 13:22

And every single day checking in with each other. Like Dr Stan Tatkin, he's this great researcher in the field of relationships and he has this the triple P's plan predict, prepare. We can't predict everything, but we can predict a lot of things on a daily basis. And if we can plan, predict, prepare for our day every day as a couple whether that's around lifestyle, meal planning, workouts we're going to get successfully through it. But most people don't take those 10 minutes to do that. And then all of these right unconscious expectations, disappointments, self judgments, insecurities, you name it.

EJ Kerwin: 13:58

Well, and it, and it, and it metastasizes right, because it starts off as just like okay, we can't talk about nutrition. You know, every time we talk about nutrition, it ends up in a fight so you, so you avoid it, you know you avoid it.

EJ Kerwin: 14:14

And then and then you just start feeling more emotionally disconnected, or you or you lose confidence that you can face conflict and come out with a resolution that feels good for both people. And so there's again, there's that initial emotional disconnect. We just won't deal with it and it just starts to spread because it's like, well, if we can't talk about this and we probably can't talk about parenting, and if we can't talk about parenting probably can't talk about money. And then all of a sudden, you're, you're avoiding every and especially, like you said, men, men will just be like, well, I'm not going to bring up anything difficult, I'm just going to like can, I'm going to hide in my cave, I'm going to go do my thing and she'll do her thing. And uh, and our goal was like we bring people back and we say, hey, you have different needs, let's negotiate it, you know, let's. Let's honor each other. Let's negotiate it, you know, let's honor each other, let's find some healthy communication habits.

Tarah Kerwin: 15:09

And let's figure out that you actually can solve these problems and that you're not uniquely broken and that you can get through it. It's just skills that we are not. We don't learn how to you know skillfully navigate through difficult emotions. We learn how to defend ourselves from them. So when they hear that you're not uniquely broken, we all have to learn these skills. It's not innate in us. It softens it a little.

Philip Pape: 15:31

Yeah, and that makes me think that any two people on the planet, when you put them together, you're going to have, like a Venn diagram, two circles that overlap a little bit, but there's a lot that doesn't overlap and I think, if we recognize that, about even our closest spouse or partner, whoever that's the case. Something you said, aj, about the men in the conversations. I was watching Ghosts recently. You guys know that show. I think it's on Paramount. It's hilarious. Was watching a game and his wife came up and asked a question and he pauses it and he goes. Okay, this is the best part of the game. But I think this is the time when I need to pause and listen to what you have to say, Like it was the that exact dynamic of you know we're watching the game like come on, but this is important.

Tarah Kerwin: 16:18

You are the most important thing to me. I really want to hear what you have to say.

EJ Kerwin: 16:22

Well, that's, that's that also speaks to this idea of like uh, men are pretty trainable. We, like I've I've found, like in couples counseling, that when you're able to break down I work with a lot of like male engineers over the years who come in and their wives are like telling them like I need you to be more emotionally present. There, they come to me and they're like what is she talking about? I have no idea what that is, president. There they come to me and they're like what is she talking about? I have no idea what that is.

EJ Kerwin: 16:46

And and you just break it down of like well, you want to have this in your relationship, which oftentimes is physical intimacy, right, well, she needs emotional intimacy, and here are things you can do that are pretty practical. When she walks in the house, you put down whatever you're doing, you walk up to her, you give her a hug and a kiss. You know it's like and and men will be like okay, yeah, you know that that's reasonable, that makes sense. But when it's veiled under things like like emotional connection or or vulnerability, there might that that isn't practical enough. You know that's not. That's not like if I do a and B, then then I get C.

Philip Pape: 17:25

Yeah, and that idea, the idea of the systems and the check-ins, I think hits on that in a way where you're just you're making it this objective thing. You know, if I know I want to build muscle, I've got to train three days a week. If I know, when I have more vulnerability and emotional connection, I have to do X, Y, z, like I get that, I get that, and that's a way to appeal to some gender specific differences that folks might have, and I'm sure in your practice everyone's different in their own way, but you just have to find what that is right. Okay, so I'm curious about. We talked a little bit about the food differences. The other thing is the training and schedules and stuff like that. Going to the gym People always ask about that. Well, especially women who have kids, then they have to take care of the kids, or the provider have to get kids ready for school, the list goes on. One parent works from home and they want to go to the gym. That's a massive source of fighting that I've come across right.

Tarah Kerwin: 18:21

Well, I was going to say women, biologically, just like the nurturing piece like there, are more biologically equipped to put all these other needs in front of their own, where and again, this is gender specific but men, like, they're really good at taking care of their own needs, right. And so there's this very like unconscious thing that can happen where it's like, oh, like for me, when I'm putting away laundry, like my laundry is always the last to put away, and I'm like, why is that? Because, like, everybody else comes first. We have four kids and my husband and I didn't even think about it, but guess what I do now? I put away my laundry first.

Tarah Kerwin: 18:55

But it's that idea around like what, if, like that's happening in the relationship, I'm going to start to build resentment. But I didn't intentionally mean to do it. So it's that whole idea of checking in every single day, ej and I wake up at five, 15 in the morning. I'm like, when can I have my gym time? When can you have your gym time?

Tarah Kerwin: 19:15

We make it happen so that both of our needs for fitness are met, because we're agreeing that both of us. It's a very important thing every day for our mental health, for our physical health, to have our gym time and today we're going to the gym at four o'clock so we had to hire a sitter to come watch over our kids so we could do that together, because we didn't have time in the morning to separate and do it. So it's just about a recognizing that needs are equally important and that you have to be able to have those conversations to say what are you needing, what am I needing and how can we make this happen realistically, right and timing and everything. That's where that plan predict, prepare comes in.

EJ Kerwin: 19:57

Well, and I think we we try to use like plural pronouns when it comes to these type of things Like, instead of what, what you know, what you and I, we try to look at it as a we and that we know when we are both taking care of ourselves. We know our brain chemistry is better, we know we feel better about ourselves, we know our attraction level is better, and so it's about like like this is a shared goal, instead of getting you know which. Again, some of this is like a little evolutionary biology stuff where we're very like self-centered, like what I, I, I, you know, and we try to make it about like this is what this is a shared goal we have together. Now, it it might be separate, there might be a period of time where where I'm more in the running phase and she's, you know, more in the F45 phase or what, or whatever you know, and that we have to just like adjust it. But they're shared goals we have together.

Tarah Kerwin: 20:56

And I. But and I do think the first piece of it is like recognizing that the individual needs are both equally important for the sake of the coupleship and being okay to be okay with that. Because I remember, even as a new mom, like, oh, my needs aren't important, like I'm raising humans that have to stay alive. And it actually got us in a really difficult place, which is why we created our Couples Counseling Center in the first place, because I didn't think I had any right to have needs, I mean, my everything went out the window and I lost my identity with my running and my fitness, and it felt really bad. But I just felt like, oh, this is just what we do. And we know now that, no, like you, create systems that will make sure that needs are getting met on both sides, cause that's going to feel really good for both people, and and not lose your sense of individuality within that coupleship.

Philip Pape: 21:48

Yeah, I could see how the nurturing nature of women and again, these are just general statements I know we're making, but there's a lot of truth to them Both really attracts me to the opposite sex in terms of that empathy that they have, and I've learned a lot from it, being around my wife seeing that. At the same time, I could see how it would burn you out because you're putting so many things first. How can a spouse, husband, partner help a woman who does that to herself? How can he help her, maybe prioritize herself, if that yourself, if that makes sense, I mean I love that question.

EJ Kerwin: 22:22

Yeah, for me, like I had to like recognize how much easier it is for me to take care of myself.

EJ Kerwin: 22:31

That that was like sort of the first step was like it took me a long time to realize like, oh, like, some of that resentment she has is like sort of well-based, and that the reality is is, is that like yeah, like I just wake up because I happen to be a morning person I just wake up and I go off to the gym and I'm gone from like five to seven, and then I swoop in and, you know, pick up the kids and take them to school, but like then Tara's left with like the rest of the day where she's trying to figure out how in the world, and clearly it's not working because she's not getting there.

EJ Kerwin: 23:07

So the first thing I had to do was just realize, like you know that that like OK, like I am kind of just taking care of myself and not making room for Tara, right, and then, and then the next thing was like OK, I'm going to have to adjust. You know, like, yeah, I would love to go to the gym every morning at six and and that works for me, but it's not, it's not working for for Tara. She wants me to be around, even if she's isn't able to say it. She needs the support in the morning. So so then it's like okay, like how does this become? Not just me take caring myself, but how does it become us creating a system? And for us it was like, well, we wake up in the morning and we make a plan. You know, because our, our life is sort of it's different from day to day One kid has basketball on Tuesdays, but then there's gymnastics on Wednesdays.

Tarah Kerwin: 24:04

And I was going to say too really quick now to interrupt. But we were just on this new mom's podcast and she asked a very similar question and like moms need to be taken care of too. And so partners hear that because I'm trying to be a super mom right, we had twins that had colic and I'm like nursing and not sleeping or not. But I looked like I got this. I know I haven't slept for five days, but I've got this. So EJ just feels like, oh, she's got this. She's like superwoman. That's not actually happening.

Tarah Kerwin: 24:33

I did not know how to say I need help or support, Because if I say that, that means there's something wrong with me. So when EJ was like baby, your needs are so important, Like you are priority, Like him saying that to me helped normalize and validate that I don't have to be in it alone. So I feel like, yes, EJ doing his individual work, but him letting me know it's okay, you need to get your ass to the gym, Like this is really important, I was like, okay, thank you for recognizing that. It's just you're, you're seen, You're seen and you're being taken care of while you're also taking care of others.

Philip Pape: 25:09

That's great yeah. Going back to plan, predict, prepare. And yeah, because I was thinking, you know, on one hand, we would all love to have our whole week planned and our month planned and like we know when we're going to work out and everything. But life doesn't work that way for everything, for food, for everything. And so, um, I was going to say, ej, just get up at three in the morning and go to the gym.

EJ Kerwin: 25:27

Then right, but that's then, you get no sleep and then you're grumpy and who knows what else. Where does all levels go up and I end up with a hump on my back. And who needs that? There you go.

Philip Pape: 25:37

So something came up regarding training. It comes up a lot in my world where we lift and one partner might ask for help from the other partner, like some coaching, and there's always there's kind of a running joke like never coach your wife. That's the joke, Cause even and I've been through this personally where my wife has asked for help but I'm like I wait until she asks, Cause I don't want to, you know, I don't want to coach her, so to speak, Cause that's not our roles. Um, some people do it successfully and others find that it causes, it makes things worse. So what are your thoughts on that?

Tarah Kerwin: 26:08

Well, yeah, I, I'm interesting to hear what you say, then all yeah.

EJ Kerwin: 26:12

Cool, I think, especially in our relationship, it's I think you, I think you use the Venn diagram, uh, example a while ago, like that that our roles and the aspects of our relationship have a way of polluting other ones, right, and so like, yeah, if you become your, your partner's coach, there are certain ways in which a coach treats the person they coach and there's certain ways in which a husband is a husband to his wife, and then there's certain way business owners, you know, and that's something that that we realize is like our business, our business ownership roles we're messing with our husband wife roles, husband wife roles.

EJ Kerwin: 27:05

And so I think that that's the problem about having that dual relationship is, if is maybe some of the dynamics within your relationship, maybe around control, maybe around poor communication, if you're not careful, it comes into that coaching and and, and it then ends up just not being a positive experience. You know, I can think of a couple I worked with years ago who he desperately wanted to coach his wife in in, uh, on the physical side, you know, in weightlifting, and she just had no interest in it and a lot of it was the, it was the unresolved dynamics that they had in their husband and wife relationship and and so, and then he, you know, really hurt him because it was such an important thing, it was such an important part of his life and he really just wanted to share it, um, but it just wasn't going to happen, you know, and so well, because then there's that feeling of like I'm being judged or if I don't get it this right way.

Tarah Kerwin: 27:56

So I mean I would say it's possible if you have very clear boundaries here's what's okay, here's what's okay, here's what's not okay. It's okay for you to tell me to go up this amount of weight. It's not okay for you to say like I can't believe you didn't just get that last rep in. I mean, I don't exactly know, but like having very clear boundaries around that role, I know each and I do that in our professional life Like here's what's okay, here's what's not okay. Like here's what's okay, here's what's not okay. So if you can have those again agreements, boundaries within that coaching dynamic. But you also say, how do we make sure that this doesn't spill over in our parenting roles or because they're uniquely defined? So I feel like if a couple has good communication skills, is able to have clear boundaries here's what's okay, here's what's not okay I think that's like such a great gift to be able to share that together. But usually people don't have that and so it ends up being it ends up being a nightmare.

EJ Kerwin: 28:52

Well, and then there's all the stuff around like body image and all that right Is like you might be the type of conversation someone you coach you might be able to have a more difficult conversation around around their body that if you have with somebody you're intimate with, they might. That might be a heck of a lot harder. Yeah.

Philip Pape: 29:12

Totally different. I can't imagine if I said to my wife let's get, let's look at your progress photos and look at your uh, you know shoulder definition here, and like no way you've been slipping.

EJ Kerwin: 29:21

Yeah, you're going to a separate bedroom tonight?

Philip Pape: 29:24

yeah, it's crazy, um so. So that's a good segue. Then, when we talk about body image, you mentioned one couple who, like, almost let her health get even worse because as a backlash to her husband or partner being so obsessed with his physical development. Right, do I have that right?

EJ Kerwin: 29:42

Yeah, they were, you know, and then that's within the realm of fitness, but also, sometimes it can be a way a partner protects themselves from intimacy is like is like I don't want to, I don't want to to be attractive to them, or it's the power I have of choosing to work out, not work out that, um, we can definitely use, you know, our fitness, our lack thereof, as a way to, to agitate or to keep ourselves separate from our partner.

Philip Pape: 30:16

I was talking to a guy today who said you know, I'm in my fifties. I built a lot of strength. I want to lean out, but I don't want to get abs, because I know that's weird in my 50s. Like it was this concept of 20 somethings versus 30 and 40 versus 50s, and then whether you're in a relationship or not, whether you're trying to chase girls in your 20s or whatever, and I think there's a lot of maybe misaligned even understanding of what men and women find attractive. So actually the question I wanted to ask more for you, tara, is like do women I mean I know this is general, everybody's attracted to something different? But when it comes to physique, when it comes to six pack abs, when it comes to leanness versus big fat and skinny and all that, like where do women stand on caring about that? And like, how important should it it be? And are men like spending way too much time doing this stuff? I oh my gosh.

Tarah Kerwin: 31:07

That's a loaded question, I know I know, I know, yeah, I mean I here's what's important for me if I see ej taking care of himself, that's important because it makes me feel like I can trust that he cares about his body, his mind, his soul for longevity. So I know that I'm not going to right. I don't have to worry about him having a heart attack or stroke or modeling unhealthy dynamics to our children. So just knowing that he cares and he takes initiative and, yeah, we fall off sometimes but we have this trust that we're, we're really. We want to be healthy. We want to have a healthy mindset. We're not rigid in it, we're very flexible. But I think we both trust each other.

Tarah Kerwin: 31:54

So I don't need him to have six packs Like, is that sexy? And yeah, but I don't. I love him for who he is, cause I know that he yeah, but I don't I love him for who he is because I know that he tries really hard to feel comfortable in his body the way it is. We also have a history. We're both eating disorder specialists, so we've worked with a lot of anorexia, bulimia, purging through exercise. So we know how important body acceptance is and positive body image, no matter what it looks like. So you're probably like talking to the wrong person when it comes to like, how important is that physical critique I think it's the biggest thing for me is like he's willing to stay healthy and strong because it's important to him and it's a value for him and it's also a value to me. So now it's shared.

Tarah Kerwin: 32:40

And if it turned into six-pack abs awesome.

Philip Pape: 32:44

No, that's the good hierarchy of priority. Put that at the bottom.

EJ Kerwin: 32:47

start with the health I know another thing you've expressed to me, though, is when I am being more disciplined around nutrition and around fitness, that you feel then supported in your goals, and when I'm slipping, you get kind of frustrated because you don't feel supported, because then it feels like well, well, like you know, like like you don't really care, and it makes it harder for me to care, you know. So that comes down to with couples like do we have shared values around fitness? Do we have shared values around nutrition?

EJ Kerwin: 33:24

And that can be a one of the big disruptors I've also seen is where two, where there's a couple who doesn't really nutrition and fitness are not important to them, and then, all of a sudden, one of them like the light goes off and, for whatever reason, they're like oh my God, I want to like, feel good in my body, and I want to like, I want to be strong and I want to look in the mirror and feel more proud of myself, and they get on like a fitness journey, and their partner's not there, you know. And then sometimes, their partner even feels like, sort of like judged by it, and almost like back to what we were talking about a few minutes ago, sort of digs their heels into their unhealthy lifestyle because they feel like, like almost like just their partner not being okay with the way they they were, that then it's a judgment on them and that that I've seen cause like major difficulties.

Philip Pape: 34:19

That's a theme that comes up a lot, and not not just with couples but just all relationships. I've noticed, right when you've got a circle of friends, you all go out to the. You know you go out on the weekends, you drink a lot, you go to the game. You know you party all the time, you eat, maybe even smoke, whatever, and then all of a sudden the light goes on for one person and the rest are like trying to pull you back in, potentially unconsciously, due to this insecurity. So as far as your friend circle, it may not be as big of a I'll say deal day-to-day versus the person you're married to or living with. So what do we do about that? What does someone do about that on both sides? So the person who sees their spouse doing this which I suspect somebody could be listening to this podcast, curious about how they haven't really gone on that journey and maybe they got into it because of their spouse and they're not sure and then vice versa, so to me, I'm cause what I?

Tarah Kerwin: 35:10

when I'm thinking about this dynamic, it feels like codependence versus individuation in a relationship. And so and I recognize with EJ and I like, when we both fall off, like we're like, oh, I'm signing up for this fall off, and I'm signing up for this fall off too, let's totally go crazy, and then in January 2025, we are going to get really fit. So that's a codependent piece. That actually doesn't feel really good, because now I've lost my own sense of identity within it. And so when we are talking about this dynamic, I'm like, how do we create a healthy, interdependent system where, if one has a higher motivation than the other, we don't personally react to it, but we're a cheerleader for it?

Tarah Kerwin: 35:54

And if there are insecurities coming up for me, like oh my gosh, I see like EJ's like eating potato chips and drinking whiskey every night, and and I'm like I've been to the gym three times like hey, just checking in with each other emotionally around, what is it like for you to be in this place right now and what's it like for me? And how do you make it not about judging each other, right, because it could be that EJ is maybe going through a difficult transition and like he's kind of just zoning out for a little bit like that's okay. But if I didn't know that and I didn't talk to him about it, I'm going to be like oh gosh, this is my life in 10 years he's going to, like, you know, be that couch potato that I don't want. I mean again it's. It could go down any many different ways, but if you're talking about why it's happening, you, you, you have your sense of independence still, but also for the sake of the relationship and you're, you're really trying to avoid that enmeshment piece. Okay.

Philip Pape: 36:49

Yeah.

Tarah Kerwin: 36:49

And just because EJ is not working out and I am, or I'm not working out and he has, like, what is my insecurity around that? That's growth for me. Like, why am I so triggered by that? That must be something. Then that's my own guilt. Like, oh, I have a hard time being consistent in my life. Why is that? Oh, because I'm a human. Okay, I'm going to have a little self-compassion here, you know, but you got to look at those triggers. Why does it bother me if someone else is being healthy and I'm not?

EJ Kerwin: 37:16

I mean, the big thing for me is just, you can't shy away from the difficult conversations, and that's a big concept that we talk about constantly on our podcast is just like if the actually taking on the difficult conversations builds connection. No-transcript. We've gotten better, you know, and so when it comes around fitness and nutrition, it's just like you just have to, you have to know that you're you're better off talking about it than not talking about it. And if Tara is feeling like a sense of discomfort with some of my habits and she knows like when I'm not taking care of myself, you know, my belly gets bigger and then eventually I don't like, I don't like it, it doesn't, it doesn't feel good, you know, and she oftentimes can see something about me before I see it. And so it has to be okay in our relationship that Tara can be like yo, look you, just, you haven't been really taking care of yourself. That, that, that, that great.

EJ Kerwin: 38:46

And and I'm concerned for you because I know how you are, I know you, I know you care, um, but but what's going on? Cause, cause it's probably not just that. I'm like F it, you know, I want to like, I just want to get you know, I just want to put on 10 pounds Like boy. That sounds fun to me. It's the yeah. It's like I'm struggling to be consistent or or stressed out or.

EJ Kerwin: 39:08

I'm super stressed and I'm just not doing a good job of taking care of myself.

Tarah Kerwin: 39:13

Or talking about it with your partner.

Philip Pape: 39:14

Yeah so so the way Tara would bring that up is and I stay statement about her observations relative to what she knows and you know about each other. Like I noticed you, you've been stressed and not doing this thing that I know you value.

EJ Kerwin: 39:27

How would that look? I mean, if she comes into me with hey, first of all, we always talk about like, when, where, how, like, if she comes to me at the at the right time, um, and she doesn't in a time where you know there's not a bunch of kids and I'm not stressed and she does it then she comes the how is. She says like, look, honey, I'm really concerned about you. Like, cause I? I know, like I've I've known you for years. I know how much you enjoy feeling good in your body and I know how much you enjoy when you have a goal that you're working towards.

EJ Kerwin: 40:01

That's going to be so much more hearable to me than if she's like why didn't you go to the gym? What is going on with you? You are not doing the things that you you know. I'm like cause, what am I then? I'm like automatically defensive. I'm like this is your problem. Like back off, like that doesn't feel good. I'm like this is your problem. Like back off, like that doesn't feel good. Yeah.

Tarah Kerwin: 40:21

It's that soft curiosity and we say we're each other's blind spots, like so many times, like I don't really know what's happening for me and EJ, coming in to be curious and supportive, feels so good because we've gone really good at learning the skills to have that soft startup right. The Gottmans call it soft startup versus harsh startup, like why are you eating that cookie? Versus like hey, honey, help me understand what's happening for you right now.

Philip Pape: 40:51

Right, because there may be an emotional eating piece.

Philip Pape: 40:55

Yeah. So a couple of themes stick out. I mean one is the individuation versus I think you said enmeshment or codependence, right, but then the other being curiosity, and it reminds me of something in positive psychology where there's a hierarchy of connection and the way that you respond to somebody. There's like four categories, right, and of course there's ones that everybody would say, yeah, that's not great when you respond that way. But then there's one where there's a subtle difference, one being hey, how are you, or or you know, just parroting back what they said versus what you said, tara, which is asking a follow-up, asking you know, being curious, wondering about it, because then it kind of puts it back on, you know, from the other person's perspective, and not you accusing them right now you're pushing it on them. Yeah, um, good stuff, good stuff.

Tarah Kerwin: 41:40

And I was going to say really quick because under that, my concern, my curiosity, it's like I love this person and I want this person to be around forever. That's so flattering. But usually people think of it as like, oh, I'm not enough for you, oh, I'm not good enough, and it's like, actually, if I U-turned it, it's because I love you so much, I just want you to be here with me until my grandpa lived to 110. So at least 110,. Babe, you got to surpass my papacy. But we don't share it out like that. It comes out so critical. So, yes, it's really. Yeah, thank you.

Philip Pape: 42:16

I feel you. No, I know what you mean.

Allan: 42:19

Hi, my name is Alan and I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well-being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching, support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, philip Pape is the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 43:10

You mentioned kids before. I think there's a place to bring that in because for many people listening who have children, and not to really talk about the parenting itself, but really for the relationship with the children involved in that relationship, Given everything we've talked about, where there are differences, there is individuation. Not everything's the same in a physique competition and one's not. Or one parent thinks keto is the way to eat and the other one thinks it's like vegan. I mean, I know a couple who's one eats meat and one eats vegetables and they make it work with their kids and their kid eats both, which is just it's a little bit odd, but it works. So how do you deal with that and make sure the kids are growing up in a healthy environment?

Tarah Kerwin: 44:01

I mean, first of all, I love that because you're highlighting that every individual is unique and whatever that uniqueness to them is is a gift and a present. It's not the right way or the wrong way, but that vegan is a gift for you. That's you, and you celebrate that. So those unique differences to me, you celebrate that. And then how do you bring that together so it can combine into the family that feels good for all? Cause now they're learning balance. They're learning respect of individual differences and uniqueness. That, and that's the thing too. Couples come in like you guys are two unique individuals. You are not the same person. You're not supposed to be thinking the same thing. And if you think that, then what does that say about you? That like you're inferior or like it's right? Having that conversation is like oh yeah, you're right, we are different, yeah.

EJ Kerwin: 44:51

I mean, I think you want to cultivate individuality but also bring a focus to common denominators. Right, like in that couple you're talking about where one's a vegan or one's vegetarian and one's you know real meat-based diet. It sounds like right there, like, although it might look like they're diametrically opposed, the common denominator is they care about what's going into their body. You know they're making intentional choices. They're just different, intentional choices.

Philip Pape: 45:26

It's a good reframe, yeah.

EJ Kerwin: 45:27

Yeah, so for me, that's what I want to focus with. If that was causing that couple problems, is I want to focus on like wow, like what a wonderful thing that you both care you know so how do you support each other in the thing that is common?

EJ Kerwin: 45:40

Because wouldn't it suck if you were with somebody who didn't didn't care whatsoever, you know. So I'm looking for things value-based, mostly because, also like one, one thing that I know is like when our actions and our values don't line up, we tend to suffer more, right? So? So then it makes sense then that you want to support your partner in living in their value system, because then there's a higher likelihood they're going to feel good. You know they're going to feel good about how they move through the world.

Philip Pape: 46:11

So let's pull on that. The values, what if? What if a couple came together, they got married and they realize, you know, before long, they have two very different values and very important areas religion, politics, even dietary preferences, whatever I mean. It does that Can? Can that work? You know, we we seen like what is that? Uh, james Carville and Mary.

EJ Kerwin: 46:37

what are the two that were married, Right?

Tarah Kerwin: 46:38

I don't know, if they're still together, but yeah, I mean, this is, it's difficult. And this is where, right we, from the start of the consultation, where we see a couple like we have to make sure they have one shared vision or goal for each other, but they're solvable and not solvable problems, like if you want kids or you don't problem solve and expect that that's going to shift, and so there's just this level of reality that we get couples into, like if there's not even that like a goal that you can say, like we can't see you, like that, that like no work could be done here. But I mean, for us people coming in right, it's like it's either this or we're done. There is so many shared values that they just forgot. But if there are those non-solvables, like we've had couples like right, where maybe they got together oh, I'm thinking of this one. They got together. They both didn't want children.

Tarah Kerwin: 47:31

And then there was this really horrible accident that happened where one almost passed away and she realized like oh, I really want children now and he's like. And she realized like, oh, I really want children now and he's like. No, like, how did this change? Like well, yeah, a near death accident, like, and unfortunately, like, they ended up separating cause she and right, she has a family now and children and remarried, but like it wouldn't change and she was just hoping, well, he'll just see one day, like that kids are important, or I'll just get pregnant, and then we'll just like get trapped in this and that kids are important, or I'll just get pregnant, and then we'll just like get trapped in this and it's like no Right. So they came and they did like a amical separation within the couple's yield because there was no changing each other's mind and we couldn't help of the experience that happened there. But things change and you just have to have very adult, realistic conversations because if there's not shared values, it's not happening.

Philip Pape: 48:22

Okay.

Tarah Kerwin: 48:22

So, I know, that's very direct.

Philip Pape: 48:24

No, no, no, it's some. Some of this is going to be a little on the darker, sadder side, because that's reality and it happens. Um, it's funny. I have a client who was her big win was finally finishing her separation with her, with her, with her ex, and it allowed her to focus on herself like never before and for her.

Tarah Kerwin: 48:42

That's a positive.

Philip Pape: 48:42

So I mean, sometimes I have, but we're not here to talk about breaking people up. I just wanted to understand where the lines are. And I guess the other thing is physically we have impacts on our bodies and our energy levels and stuff. When we're going through some of this, when we're training or dieting or whatever, when that changes, how do you help couples maintain that intimacy physical, emotional, whatever when, like, the energy is tanking, you know? That's another thing that comes to mind.

EJ Kerwin: 49:13

I mean, I think I would put it in the context of a relationship being longitudinal, like, right that this is going to be, you're going to be with your partner for years, decades, right, and you know, especially when it comes to, I think, what you're talking about around, like you know, a, a, a period of time, you know, a training period of time is being able to keep it into perspective and be like, okay, like you know, my partner needs this support, or I need to be patient for this amount of time, um, but it's going to pass. You know, and that's like a big thing we talked to couples about. You know, cause there is like sort of for some and imply, you know, an implied agreement, but for some it's explicit, it's like in in the vows they take, in the good times, the bad right, and that, like, there are going to be times where your partners might go through a really difficult period of time. There will be, and that could be a month, it could be a year, it could be a couple of years, right, and what is your, what is your vow? You know, what is the promise that you've made to your partner, and so if your partner goes through, like you know they go through, you know, like an injury or or you know, a really big health crisis, right, like, is there a limit? Like, oh, they can only be sick for three months and then then I'm out, you know.

EJ Kerwin: 50:37

So I would bring it sort of into that context of like, okay, let's, first of all, let's talk about it. Your partner, you know, sort of needs your support in doing this. There is going to be this negative, maybe, effect that you're going to have to deal with, but is that okay and can you trust that it will pass, that you guys will manage it, that you'll have open-hearted, kind conversations about it and that, and that eventually you know you you'll have open-hearted, kind conversations about it and that eventually you know you'll move through it together. Because that's the partner I want. You know, I want the partner that trusts I'll be there for her no matter what she goes through, and that she'll be there for me no matter what I go through.

Philip Pape: 51:16

I love that you mentioned vows and longitudinal thinking here, because that's the essence of sustainability, right Having the thought that things aren't always going to be exactly the same and the energy levels change and our needs change from one to the other. Like you said, if you get it, I mean my wife stuck with me, not stuck with me. I know she'd stick with me, but I had several surgeries over the past few years where you know I was like um needed a little more attention for a little bit. After that she was just amazing. But uh, yeah, we're going to go through those times. It's also another reason. So listen up, listeners. I just recently did a podcast episode about why you don't want to diet very often and you want to actually gain muscle and gain weight to allow you to live in that high energy state. So, when it comes to relationships and being there for the other person, just remember the least you can have to diet, the better, right, yeah?

EJ Kerwin: 52:04

Well, I mean, I can just think of like so last. So both Tara and I have, uh, enjoyed running over the years. She did. Eventually I caught the running bug, like you know, a year or two after we got together and I just, I mean, I loved it. It was just like a really neat high I'd never experienced, and seeing how it affected my body was kind of cool. And so we had fallen off the train of running and we'd been just lifting for a while. And last year we were like, let's do the San Diego marathon, let's do that, like that'll be fun to train. And we attempted to train the way we train years ago and we both got injured literally within like six weeks.

Tarah Kerwin: 52:46

We did run the 5k we went.

EJ Kerwin: 52:47

we went from like. We went from, like you know, running one to two miles to running like 12, 13, in like a four-week period, which which our bodies are not equipped to do anymore like we have to have a have to have a much less steep hill, but we got injured and we both struggled. We both struggled with that. We both sort of like it bummed us out. We could have still trained in certain ways and we just didn't. Our nutrition went offline and so it sucked, but we had, we sort of adapted our way through it. We made a compromise, we just ran the 5k instead. And now we're, a year later, looking at it and being like okay, like maybe let's do that goal again, but let's yeah, let's maybe just do the half and let's really intentionally train this time, instead of trying to train like a like you know, like somebody younger than than than who I am.

Tarah Kerwin: 53:44

Be realistic of where our bodies are right now.

Philip Pape: 53:47

Yes, yes, that makes sense. That makes sense. All right, as we wrap up in time, I hope you guys have a little time for a couple of rapid fire questions here I'm looking for some short, short answers, whatever comes to mind, and maybe each of you can give an answer however you want to do it sure might be hard for terry.

EJ Kerwin: 54:03

Yeah, it's fine short answer short all right.

Philip Pape: 54:07

So the first one is what's one thing everyone listening who's in a relationship should start doing tomorrow that they're not doing today checking in every single day about how they're feeling and a shared like intention or goal for your relationship.

Tarah Kerwin: 54:22

That day it takes five minutes. I'm feeling this, this and this. My intention is to like send you some cute texts today and then we end it with a positive relationship statement, Like we can handle this shit together, whatever it might be. Right now it's the holidays, are like we got this.

Philip Pape: 54:37

Nice.

Tarah Kerwin: 54:38

It takes five minutes. You're on the same page, okay.

EJ Kerwin: 54:40

Go. I like that one. I'll just just say yes on that, Okay.

Philip Pape: 54:45

Okay, all right. If you go, wave a magic wand and make every couple understand one thing about balancing their fitness with their relationship, what would it be?

EJ Kerwin: 54:55

Things are going to change. Things are going to change Like, like your, the pattern of your life are going to is going to change. Your physical body is going to change. That you have to be adaptable and know just because one thing is working doesn't mean that same thing is going to continue to work for for a long time. Be adaptable and I can handle this and I can be flexible. Yeah, good.

Tarah Kerwin: 55:17

I love flexibility. We preach that all the time, so I love that this and I can be flexible, yeah.

Philip Pape: 55:21

Good, I love flexibility. We preach that all the time, so I love that. The last one is what's the most surprising thing you each have learned about each other this year?

Tarah Kerwin: 55:30

Oh, my goodness. Oh, I actually just learned it on our podcast. We recorded this morning that when I touch EJ's face with my two hands and give him a kiss, I'm the only person that's ever done it in his whole life, and it makes them feel very loved. That's sweet, like I'm going to do that more now. I had no clue.

EJ Kerwin: 55:47

Well, and and I can uh go directly at fitness with this is that I didn't realize until she told me early on the year that when, when I sense her frustration with me not being as tuned into my nutrition, it's not because she's judging me, it's because she just doesn't feel supported then in her nutritional goals. I always felt judged it was that she just doesn't. She needs help. She needs help, and when I'm being steady, it's easier for her to be steady.

Philip Pape: 56:20

Awesome. I want the listeners to know that even an experienced relationship, couple license and everything with a podcast is still always going to be learning about each other, right?

EJ Kerwin: 56:28

That's our whole gig right there.

Tarah Kerwin: 56:30

This is why people love us.

EJ Kerwin: 56:31

We're in it with you.

Philip Pape: 56:32

We're in perfect, all right, cool. Is there anything you wish I had asked that we didn't cover today, in this realm that you're like? Ah, we really wanted to address that one thing, anything you can think of.

Tarah Kerwin: 56:43

I feel like this was so great that we touched on so many different avenues and aspects of relationship and wellness. So, no, not, not for me.

EJ Kerwin: 56:50

Yeah, I mean, I think like if we were ever to go deeper, I think around like physical intimacy, I think that that's. That's a big thing and sort of like people they're changing bodies as they age, their fitness goals being in alignment, out of alignment, like how that affects their sexual intimacy, I think is something that could be explored deeper that's a good one.

Philip Pape: 57:13

That's a good one. Yeah, you're right. That's like a whole other conversation, so I love it All right we'll leave it at that. I do want listeners to know how to get ahold of you guys. If it's not obvious, from if you're watching the video, you can see the name of their podcast, of course, Relationship Renovation Podcast. Where do you want folks to find you?

EJ Kerwin: 57:28

I mean, the easiest thing to do is just at Relationship Renovation. Type it into Google, You'll come to our website. We have in-office home programs. We're launching some coaching programs next year, you know just relationship renovation will bring you right to us All right.

Philip Pape: 57:45

Awesome. This has been a pleasure. I hope the listeners got a lot from this. Again, it's we've never talked about this in this great detail, and yet it's one of the biggest roadblocks, challenges, but also opportunities to move forward when it comes to physical, mental health. So thank you so much, tara and EJ, for coming on the show.

Tarah Kerwin: 58:02

And we feel grateful to be your first yes.

Philip Pape: 58:06

I'm not a virgin anymore. No, sir, all right, thanks, guys. Thanks for coming on, absolutely Bye-bye.

The 7 Types of Rest and Recovery for Maximum Muscle Gain (Work-Rest Cycle) | Ep 273

Download the Stress Solution Guide now with more detailed strategies to reduce stress (and improve fat loss and muscle gain)

--

Are you tired despite getting enough sleep? Are your workouts feeling like a grind?

Learn how the engineering concept of the Work-Rest Cycle combines with the 7 types of rest can be used to maximize your muscle growth and recovery.

Research from Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith reveals why sleep alone isn't enough, and how implementing all 7 types of rest can accelerate your results.

Main Takeaways:

• Why proper maintenance is crucial for optimal performance

• The 7 types of rest: physical, mental, sensory, creative, emotional, social, and spiritual

• How implementing all 7 types of rest can improve results more than additional training or food

Today you'll learn about:

00:58 Why sleep alone isn't enough for complete recovery
02:22 The Work-Rest Cycle
03:15 The 7 types of rest
11:42 How to implement all 7 types of rest
15:16 Using metrics to track recovery effectiveness
17:01 Why rest might be more important than training
18:38 Recap of the 7 types of rest

Episode Resources:

• Join the Physique University

Mastering the 7 Types of Rest for Ultimate Recovery

When it comes to building muscle and maximizing recovery, most people focus on just two things: sleep and taking days off from the gym. But what if I told you that’s only scratching the surface? According to research, your body needs seven distinct types of rest to recover fully, grow stronger, and reach your physique goals. Today, we’re diving into these seven types, framed through an engineering concept called the Work-Rest Cycle, to help you build a smarter recovery system.

1. Physical Rest

This is the most obvious form of rest and includes both passive and active recovery:

• Passive Rest: Sleep, naps, and complete relaxation.

• Active Rest: Light movement such as walking or mobility exercises on rest days.

Studies in the Journal of Applied Physiology show proper sleep increases muscle protein synthesis by up to 60%, while active recovery can reduce muscle damage markers by 40%. Think of physical rest as maintenance for your body’s machinery—sometimes you need to shut it down completely, and other times, keep it running lightly to prevent rust.

2. Mental Rest

Mental fatigue impacts your workouts and overall performance. Studies published in Frontiers in Psychology reveal that mental fatigue reduces time to exhaustion by 15% and impairs decision-making during exercise. Even a brief mental rest, such as a one-minute breathing exercise, can improve cognitive performance by 26%. If you feel scattered or unfocused during your workouts, chances are you need more mental rest.

3. Sensory Rest

Constant stimulation from screens, noise, and artificial light overwhelms your senses. Research in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism shows that excessive sensory input increases cortisol by up to 50%, which directly impacts muscle growth and fat storage. Reducing screen time by just two hours a day can lower cortisol levels by 20% and improve sleep quality by 35%.

4. Creative Rest

This type of rest isn’t just for artists; it’s about giving your brain the freedom to explore new ideas and perspectives. Studies in Behavioral Sciences show creative activities increase brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), a protein crucial for learning and adaptation. For fitness, this means better movement patterns, motivation, and adherence. Even adding variety to your exercise routine can stimulate neuromuscular efficiency and improve results.

5. Emotional Rest

Unprocessed emotions can act like a pressure gauge ready to burst. Research in Psycho-Neuroendocrinology shows that emotional stress increases cortisol by up to 37% and decreases testosterone by 10-15%, directly impacting muscle growth and recovery. Practices like journaling or talking to a coach can help you release pent-up emotions and restore balance.

6. Social Rest

Positive social interactions can enhance your recovery. According to Behavioral Medicine, they boost muscle protein synthesis by 25% while reducing inflammatory markers. Whether you’re an extrovert or introvert, balancing energizing and draining social activities is key to optimizing your recovery system.

7. Spiritual Rest

Spiritual rest involves connecting to something larger than yourself, whether that’s religion, purpose, or long-term goals. Finding meaning in your fitness journey helps maintain motivation and consistency. Think of it as your body’s mission statement, guiding your actions and keeping you aligned.

Building Your Recovery System

To implement these seven types of rest, start by auditing your recovery patterns:

• Identify your biggest rest deficits.

• Create a recovery schedule that addresses these gaps strategically without adding unnecessary stress.

For example:

• Combine sensory and mental rest by walking outdoors without headphones.

• Pair emotional and spiritual rest by journaling about your deeper fitness motivations.

Tie these strategies to measurable metrics like workout performance, sleep quality, or stress levels. This data-driven approach ensures you’re continuously fine-tuning your recovery system.

Recap: The Seven Types of Rest

1. Physical: Sleep and active recovery.

2. Mental: Clearing mental fatigue.

3. Sensory: Reducing overstimulation.

4. Creative: Adding variety and inspiration.

5. Emotional: Processing feelings and reducing stress.

6. Social: Balancing relationships.

7. Spiritual: Finding purpose and motivation.

When you optimize your recovery across all seven types, you’ll amplify your results far more than just pushing harder in the gym. Proper rest isn’t about doing less—it’s about doing the right things to keep your body running like a well-maintained machine.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:02

If you're always tired despite getting enough sleep, or maybe your workouts feel like a grind and you're not getting the results you want, maybe there's something missing when it comes to your recovery. Most people get this completely wrong. They oversimplify recovery as just sleeping more or taking days off from the gym. But research shows that your body actually needs up to seven distinct types of rest to maximize your recovery, your muscle growth, to achieve the physique you want. So today, using an engineering framework called the Work-Rest Cycle, we're going to talk about exactly what these are and how to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:58

I'm your host, philip Pape. Now you know that feeling when you get a full eight hours of sleep but you still wake up exhausted. Now you know that feeling when you get a full eight hours of sleep but you still wake up exhausted. Or when you take a rest day but your next workout feels heavier than ever. There's a reason for that. Sleep and physical rest are just two pieces of a larger system that your body needs to recover and grow. How the engineering concept of the work-rest cycle combines with research on seven essential types of rest to create your complete recovery system. And before we get into it.

Philip Pape: 1:32

I want to share something that will help you implement an improved approach to stress. It is an expanded version of my stress solution guide. So if you've ever downloaded this before, it was a pretty small guide based on some ideas that we had talked about on the previous episode, but I've expanded it with probably three or four extra pages of very detailed strategies for managing stress. So to get your free copy of that, just click the link in the show notes. You could always go to witsandweightscom slash free. Again. This is the expanded stress solution guide at witsandweightscom slash free or the link in the show notes. All right, in engineering because today we like to talk about engineering frameworks and applying them to your body, to your life In engineering we use something called the work rest cycle to maximize productivity while presenting or preventing system failure.

Philip Pape: 2:22

So I want you to think about a manufacturing line that's always running 24-7, producing widgets Doesn't matter what kind of widgets and if you let it keep running forever, if you never have scheduled maintenance periods, machines are going to break down and when that happens, efficiency is going to drop and eventually the whole system is going to fail. Your body operates on the same principle. It is a complex machine. It's not like a complex machine. It is a complex machine. It's not like a complex machine. It is one and it needs multiple forms of maintenance to perform at its peak. And the problem is that most people focus on just one or two types of maintenance and ignore the others, and that's like only changing a machine's oil while ignoring all the other aspects of managing the machine. It's kind of like with your car, like a lot of us we change, we get gas, we fill up the tank, but then we neglect a lot of the other things and then, before you know it, we've got a thousand dollar bill at the auto mechanic. Eventually, something's going to break, is the point here.

Philip Pape: 3:15

And this is where Dr Sondra Dalton-Smith comes into play. She is a researcher who identified seven distinct types of rest. I learned about her with a recent guest on the show, allie Shapiro. She mentioned her on the show the seven types of rest and I looked into it and I said you know, I need to do a podcast on this because I think this is a great way to frame your overall recovery system and each one of them can play a vital role in your fitness and I think we're neglecting a lot of them, myself included. So I think you're going to get a lot out of this. So here we go the seven types of rest and how they relate to you and your recovery.

Philip Pape: 3:51

First is physical. This is probably the most obvious that we are familiar with. This, yes, includes sleep, but not just sleep. We need both passive physical rest, like sleep and complete relaxation and naps, but also active physical rest. Like you know, light movement, walking, that kind of recovery you do on your rest day, but you're awake and doing something. So studies in the Journal of Applied Physiology have shown that proper sleep increases muscle protein synthesis by up to 60%. Research in sports medicine shows active recovery between training sessions can reduce muscle damage markers by 40%. So sleep and active recovery it's kind of like with a machine which needs to be shut down occasionally and needs some light operational periods while it's running. Same thing your body needs both forms to optimize recovery.

Philip Pape: 4:43

The second type of rest is mental rest. Think of this like rebooting an overloaded computer. You know when your computer starts to crash and Chrome gets really slow and you're like what's going on, I'm just going to reboot it. That usually solves everything. Well, think of your body like that as well. You kind of get this buildup of mental stress. Research in Frontiers in Psychology shows that mental fatigue significantly impairs physical performance and it reduces time to exhaustion by up to 15% and impairs decision-making during exercise. So we know mental fatigue is not just about in the brain. It translates to your physical and can reduce your performance in the gym. It affects your workout focus, your form. You're literally just like running on fumes, right, mental fumes, and you you kind of know when you get to this point, but sometimes you may not realize it because it's that just at just below that, just above that level. But you need more mental rest than that and studies show that even brief mental rest breaks, even a minute of breathing and taking a break and just stopping Again, this was on let's see episode with Molly McNamee recently. She talked about taking 30 second breaks between meetings or tasks. Even just the 60 seconds of conscious breathing can improve cognitive performance by 26%. So mental rest is incredibly important.

Philip Pape: 6:05

Third, we have sensory rest, now your body's sensory systems. This is more than just the physical, like the overall sleep and rest that we need. In that sense, these are the actually your senses, right, your eyes, your ears and so on. They can get overwhelmed, right? Just like on any machine, you could get overwhelmed by constant input from screens, from noise, from artificial light. Research in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism shows that excessive sensory stimulation increases cortisol by up to 50% above baseline. And we know about cortisol, don't we? It directly impacts everything Muscle growth, fat storage, you name it. A 2023 study found that even two hours of screen time reduction per day can lower cortisol levels by 20% and improve sleep quality by 35%. So when we talk sensory rest, oftentimes we're talking about sleep quality, and yes, these all tie together, but I'd like you to think about it as its own form of rest. How do we reduce the sensory overwhelm? And, by the way, I'm going to get to strategies for all of these, but I really wanted to lay them out first and get you thinking about why these are important.

Philip Pape: 7:15

The fourth type of rest is creative rest. Now, in engineering terms, this is like giving your system an upgrade right? A new algorithm, new input, new inspiration, right, a new feature. Research in behavioral sciences shows that creative activities reduce cortisol levels and increase BDNF, that's brain-derived neurotrophic factor, and that is a protein that is crucial for learning and adaptation. Amazing, right. So creative activities, we know, increase that. And for fitness this means better movement patterns, increased training motivation, which means increased adherence and consistency.

Philip Pape: 7:57

Studies show that, for example, just varying your exercise selection this is an argument for variety, right? Argument for variety here. It can improve things like muscle activation and your neuromuscular activity efficiency significantly, compared to something that is repetitive over and over and over again and we kind of know this intuitively. I do argue for some level of variety. I'm I'm, I'm okay or I'm a big fan of a basic but boring approach when you first start training just to get super strong, super fast. But then I think there needs to be a little variety in there, for a variety of reasons. Um, muscle activation is just just one of them. There's a study that I found that linked those together. But there's a lot of other reasons having to do with what might be called creative rest.

Philip Pape: 8:43

The fifth type of rest is emotional rest. Think of emotions. Like your pressure gauges, they need regular release of the emotions to prevent system overload. I never want you to hold your emotions back. We need to express them, we feel them. We can't help it. It's a matter of how we cope with them and research in psycho neuroendocrinology shows that emotional stress increases cortisol by up to 30% or 37% and decreases testosterone by 10 to 15% and that, of of course, directly impacts muscle growth and recovery. And then, conversely, we know that emotional regulation techniques can reduce stress-induced hormonal disruption.

Philip Pape: 9:26

The sixth type of rest is social rest. So, just like collaborative systems you know, like think of teamwork or teams working together, they need breaks between intensive, all out brainstorming, right? You ever been in a team in a meeting? You can't just go on and on and on. You're going to eventually burn out. You need a balance, uh, so, similarly, you need to balance socially draining versus energizing interactions in everything you do. Whether you are more of a loner type or more of a social type, we all need relaxation and periodization between being with people and not being with people. Research in the Journal of Behavioral Medicine shows that positive social interactions muscle protein synthesis by up to 25% and increase inflammatory markers. And you notice I'm throwing you a lot of numbers and research and everything. I wanted to make sure this one tied into some of the findings we actually see associated with these types of rest. There's plenty of science behind it and a lot of it is somewhat intuitive, but it's good to understand these.

Philip Pape: 10:38

Finally, number seven the seventh type of rest is spiritual rest, and in engineering, this is like having a clear mission, operational purpose, what I'll call a user story or a requirement for your machine. Now, that's kind of a stretch for an analogy. So let's talk about what this means for you. Spiritual rest means connecting to something larger than yourself. That can mean a lot of things to people. It's not just religion or spirituality per se. It could be finding deeper meaning, finding purpose, finding why you are doing this in the first place on the long arc of life, and this maintains your long-term motivation, your long-term consistency, versus just having short-term reasons for doing this. So, if we're gonna take all these seven types of rest, how do we create a practical system for implementing them? Now, I recently went over these in my group coaching program in Physique University. We had one of our coaching calls. I went through specific actions for each one that people could take to apply to them.

Philip Pape: 11:42

But I'm just going to ask you, without without just listing a laundry list of things, start by auditing your current recovery patterns. Like, think about the seven types of rest we just talked about. You can go back and reference them. What are your biggest rest deficits? Right, most people are severely lacking in at least one or two, if not three, of these seven areas, so identify the ones that need the most attention, and then I want you to have a recovery schedule that hits all of these. Now, some of the things are going to be things you're already doing and some will be to address the one or two that you identified as the biggest low-hanging fruit, and this doesn't mean adding more to your day and doing more. Please don't take it as that, because that is going to affect your stress and rest in the most ironic way. This means being strategic and efficient, using stacking, combining things and so on.

Philip Pape: 12:45

For example, you can combine sensory and mental rest by doing your relaxing thing that you like to do. Let's say it's walking outside without listening to a podcast or listening to music. Now you're going to say wait a minute, philip. Haven't you talked about habit stacking, where you can walk or listen to a podcast? Yes. However, if you're constantly stimulated, if when you're indoors, you're always on a screen or have something in your ears, and then you go for a walk and you still have something in your ears, that could be a problem and you could be overloaded and you don't have sensory rest. Instead, take advantage of the fact you're outside to look at the sky, the clouds, the birds, the trees, the animals, other people. Just be with your thoughts and get the sensory rest along with the mental rest. And, by the way, you're probably also getting a form of physical rest in recovery. Getting a form of physical rest and recovery all three just by going for a walk out in nature.

Philip Pape: 13:47

You can stack emotional rest and spiritual rest by taking a moment to write down or journal or think about your deeper fitness motivations. If you haven't done that in a while, right, that's tied to your spiritual rest, but it's also emotional because it lets you get out on paper what you're thinking and feeling. This is where, when you're working with a coach, you can be super helpful when they're prompting you, when they're asking questions from a objective, unbiased sense. So I'll give you an example of this. Many of you, you probably share things with your loved ones or family or friends, even someone who's very supportive, and you tell them hey, I'm tracking my food or I'm lifting weights or I'm focusing. If they're super supportive, they're going to be positive, hopefully, about it. They're not going to question you, they're not going to sabotage you, and they're going to say, hey, that's awesome. And if you've had a bad day and you say this terrible thing happened, they might say, oh, that sucks.

Philip Pape: 14:32

Now, some of us need that, but in some cases, that may not give you emotional rest because it didn't allow you to unburden the emotion in a full way, in a complete way. What I mean by that is a really good friend is going to empathize with you, but they're not necessarily going to help you process or move through it. Like, say, a therapist or even a coach, right? Or? Or someone in a community, like a Facebook community you're in who doesn't have a personal stake with you, but they still want to help you, and so they, they're listening, they allow you to vent, you can share the challenges you've had, and then, if you ask for help, they can say, okay, tell me more, what have you tried? What haven't you tried? Hey, maybe here's some things to try and you could unburden those emotions in that way, right?

Philip Pape: 15:16

So really get creative about each of these types of rest, and then you could, of course, make this very objective by tying that to your metrics. To make this very objective by tying that to your metrics, to your biofeedback. By the way, we just did an episode not long ago called the 6-10 biofeedback model, where we talk about different metrics. So, whether it's your workout performance which translates into, say, energy, recovery, motivation, right, all of that stuff, all of those metrics, and of course, the direct ones like sleep, stress and all the things you like to measure with your rings and your watches and everything which I do as well, you can then get that as feedback and see what's working and what's not, and then you can adjust your recovery schedule, your rest ratios, so to speak, based on these indicators. And I have a lot of ideas where those came from. Again, I didn't want today's episode to be a laundry list and I have a lot of ideas where those came from. Again, I didn't want today's episode to be a laundry list.

Philip Pape: 16:21

A few other things that come to mind would be if you normally are listening to music while working out try not listening to music, just silently work out. Think about a lot of this is that rest and recovery is probably going to build more muscle for you than your training and your food. And that might sound a little bit sacrilegious from coming from me. I say it, however, because a lot of you you've you've started to dial in your training. Your training three, four or five days a week. You started to dial in your food. You know, maybe you're tracking, you're kind of understanding a little bit how macros work and energy balance, and there's still something a little bit holding you back or maybe the progress isn't as much as you'd like.

Philip Pape: 17:01

I bet there's a lot of opportunity with rest and recovery. That's the one that people neglect so often, and sometimes we throw up our hands and we say you know, I just don't have the mental capability here, I don't have my life doesn't allow for it, because I don't have enough time. There's a lot of excuses we make. Let's just be honest, and so I want you to take it at a bite-sized, micro level. Pick one of the seven types of rest right and focus on it, because you want to be a well-aimed machine, well-maintained machine. A well-maintained machine Think of a car that you actually take into the shop regularly. You don't have to worry about it, like it just runs and runs and runs, just fine.

Philip Pape: 17:39

But one that gets neglected is constantly going to have problems, and all those problems which you could translate to being injuries or sicknesses, or you're way too tired or whatever burnout. They actually stack on top of each other to the point where you just never get in a rhythm with your routine. But if you take the time now to actually think about getting your body rest across all seven areas, that is going to amplify your results far more than pushing harder on any single dimension. Right, and this is why some people get better results doing less, like training three days a week instead of four or five, because maybe they're resting more and then they're getting rest across all the dimensions and and and right. And so if I'm going to recap real quick the seven types of rest which, again, I encourage going back and listening through the episode for the details Number one, physical.

Philip Pape: 18:38

Number two, mental. Number three, sensory. Number four, creative. Number five, emotional. Number six, social. And number seven, spiritual.

Philip Pape: 18:43

All right, it's a pretty cool concept, this whole idea of work rest, um, where we don't pay attention to the rest enough. Let's be honest. And if you, by the way, if you want to see the full uh workshop that we did, where we went over all the details and gave you specifics for each, you could join physique university Anytime. Go to wandweightscom slash physique and you'll learn about everything provided there. But part of that is the regular coaching calls where we cover topics like this in detail and give you specific actions and frameworks to apply them. All right, I mentioned before, if you want to have a little bit more help with managing stress and some strategies, you can download my expanded stress solution guide. Go to witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using those wits, lifting those weights, and remember that proper rest is much more than just sleep. It's strategic recovery across all seven types of rest we talked about today. This is Philip Hape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. Talk to you next time.

The WORST Weight Loss Diet to Lose 20 Pounds or More | Ep 272

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Are crash diets secretly sabotaging your fat loss efforts? Can eating less ever be too much? What if the key to lasting results is a completely different approach?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives deep into the science of fat loss to reveal why the most common methods of rapid weight loss often fail and how they can even harm your long-term goals.

Discover the red flags of unsustainable diets, why most of them fail, and how to design a personalized, sustainable fat loss strategy that works for your unique needs and lifestyle. Philip breaks it all down into actionable insights to help you lose fat, build muscle, and feel amazing without falling into the crash diet trap.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:37 Red flags to spot an unsustainable diet
7:50 Why crash diets seem to make perfect sense
9:31 Science of how your body adapts to aggresive calorie cutting
12:38 Five specific ways that crash dieting makes sustainable fat loss harder
19:18 Three key principles for sustainable fat loss
22:48 Building a good system that works for you
24:22 Why a moderate approach beats crash dieting every time
26:23 Outro

Episode resources:

• 10 Intermittent Fasting Myths That Need to Die

• 6 Ways to Lose Fat in 2025 (Using Science-Based Methods)
  

The Worst Diet for Losing 20 Pounds (and What to Do Instead)

When faced with the goal of losing 20 pounds or more, many people turn to crash diets, believing that rapid calorie cuts or eliminating entire food groups will lead to faster results. The logic seems simple: eat less, lose more. But this oversimplification ignores the complexity of human physiology and often leads to poor outcomes.

Crash diets—those that drastically cut calories or promise extreme results—trigger your body’s survival mechanisms. This includes metabolic adaptation, muscle loss, and rebound weight gain. Instead of delivering sustainable results, these diets create a cycle of frustration, burnout, and eventual weight regain.

Why Crash Diets Seem Logical (But Aren’t)

The premise of crash dieting is rooted in the calorie deficit equation: if reducing calories by 500 per day results in 1 pound of fat loss per week, then cutting 1,000 or more must be even better, right? Not so fast. This linear approach fails to account for the body’s sophisticated adaptations.

When calories are cut too aggressively:

• Metabolism slows down. Your basal metabolic rate (BMR) drops beyond what would be expected from weight loss alone, sometimes by 200–300 calories within weeks.

• Movement decreases. Non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) declines, meaning you unconsciously move less, further reducing calorie burn.

• Exercise becomes less effective. The calories burned during workouts decrease as your body becomes more efficient.

• Hunger hormones spike. Leptin levels drop, while ghrelin increases, making you hungrier and hyper-focused on food.

Five Ways Crash Diets Sabotage Fat Loss

1. Accelerated Muscle Loss
   Crash diets often result in losing 40–50% of weight from muscle mass, particularly when protein intake and resistance training are neglected. This loss not only slows your metabolism but also diminishes your overall strength and body composition.

2. Increased Hunger and Cravings
   The hormonal shifts from aggressive dieting amplify hunger and cravings, making it nearly impossible to stick to the diet. Research shows that extreme calorie cuts can lead to binge-eating behaviors, further derailing progress.

3. Compromised Training Performance
   Low energy levels from extreme deficits mean weaker workouts, less intensity, and fewer calories burned during exercise. This compromises your ability to preserve muscle and maintain progress.

4. Psychological Burnout
   Crash diets rely on willpower, which is a finite resource. The constant mental battle to stay on track leads to emotional exhaustion, making these diets unsustainable in the long run.

5. Rebound Weight Gain
   Studies reveal that 80–95% of crash dieters regain the lost weight within 1–5 years. Worse, the regained weight often consists of a higher percentage of fat, leaving you in a worse metabolic state than before.

What Works Instead: A Sustainable Fat Loss Approach

Crash diets fail because they fight against your body’s natural processes. Instead, adopt these evidence-based principles for lasting fat loss:

1. Create a Moderate Calorie Deficit
   Aim for a 0.5–0.75% body weight loss per week, which minimizes metabolic adaptation and hunger. A moderate deficit provides enough energy to fuel your workouts and daily activities while ensuring fat loss.

2. Preserve Muscle with Protein and Strength Training
   Prioritize resistance training and a high-protein diet. These habits preserve lean muscle, maintain metabolic rate, and improve body composition as you lose fat.

3. Plan Diet Breaks and Recovery Periods
   Incorporate planned breaks at maintenance calories to reduce psychological fatigue and maintain consistency. These breaks help you manage social events, holidays, and life changes without feeling restricted.

Why Systems Beat Diets

Think of your fat loss approach as a system, not a diet. A successful system is:

• Efficient: Minimizes wasted effort while maximizing results.

• Reliable: Produces consistent outcomes you can depend on.

• Sustainable: Fits into your lifestyle and allows for flexibility.

• Adaptable: Adjusts to changing circumstances, such as stress, travel, or holidays.

The worst weight loss diet is the one that sets you up for failure by undermining your body’s natural processes and your psychological well-being. Instead of chasing rapid results, focus on building a sustainable system that prioritizes fat loss, muscle preservation, and metabolic health.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

When you decide to lose 20 pounds or more, what is the first thing that you typically do? If you're like most people, you probably jump straight to cutting calories, trying intermittent fasting, cutting food groups like carbs, or following some quick-fix diet something unique, something new that promises rapid results in maybe as little as a few weeks, and it seems to make perfect sense. Eat way less food, lose way more weight right. But what if the most common approach to losing those 20 plus pounds, the one that feels the most logical and that everyone seems to try first and say is working for them is actually setting you up for failure? Today, I'm going to show you why the most popular weight loss method might be sabotaging your results and, more importantly, what the science says you should do instead.

Philip Pape: 0:51

The allure of rapid weight loss is everywhere. You see before and after photos all over the place claiming that someone dropped 30 pounds in 30 days. You see influencers and hear podcasters recommend extended fasting or detoxes or eliminating food groups to slim down, and the message seems clear If you want dramatic results, you've got to go for dramatic measures. But what if those common approaches to dieting in fact, most of the named diets out there are all really just crash diets that make things worse in the end. And what if there was a more intelligent way to lose substantial amounts of fat while preserving muscle and maintaining long-term metabolic health? Today, we are breaking down the science of why most diets fail, what actually happens in your body when you cut calories too aggressively, and how to approach fat loss in a way that creates lasting results, even when you do have 20, 30, or 40 or more pounds to lose. Now, before we get into it, if you are tired of the cycle of aggressive dieting followed by rebound weight gain, I do offer a free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment, which is a call without a sales pitch, where we get on Zoom for 15 minutes and identify what's been holding you back. We create a simple, science-based plan usually two or three steps that works with your body, based on what I've learned about you in our conversation. And that's it. You go along your way with a little more clarity and some action. All you got to do is book your free call using the link in the show notes and hopefully I'll be talking to you soon.

Philip Pape: 2:25

All right, First let us define exactly what we mean by aggressive calorie restriction or crash dieting, because when I titled this episode the Worst Diet. The irony there is that I would never recommend a best diet. In other words, the best diet is going to be the one that is most personalized to your needs and your level of flexibility and rigidity, and that's the point. And so when I talk about a worst diet, I'm also not talking about a single diet. I'm talking about an overall philosophy or approach that the vast majority of people use, probably 95% or more, because that's the amount of people that fail to maintain the results. Therefore, it's not working. It's not working. So if you tell me, no, keto worked for me, I'm going to ask you well, are you still doing it and is it still working for you? And if you say yes and yes, and I feel great and it's everything that promised and more then awesome, guess what? That is the diet that works for you, but the vast majority of people it's not the case. So what do we mean by these approaches? All right, I'm going to give you some criteria.

Philip Pape: 3:29

These are the red flags. If any diet has these, then it's a red flag and probably not going to work. The first one is just that they're asking you to cut calories to some extremely low, usually arbitrary level. If I were to give a number on that, I would say for women that's well below 1,200 calories. For men it's well below 1,500. Understanding that, it is highly personal. If I have a client who weighs only 100 pounds or 110, she's a very petite female, she might be dieting at 1,000 and it feels just fine, with no hunger and no metabolic issues. But she's a lot smaller. Her body doesn't need nearly as much energy coming in, so it's not as restrictive for her. Similarly, with a male, smaller in stature, maybe lower in weight, he might find that 1,400 or 1,500 calories is fine for dieting. Others, myself included, anything below 1,800 feels very restrictive. So a diet that tells you you've got to eat this many calories like Optivia I think it's 800 calories Ridiculous. That is a huge red flag there.

Philip Pape: 4:28

The second one is that it promises an outcome like a certain amount of weight loss in a certain amount of time. That is unsustainable. So usually that's well more than two pounds per week. And again it depends on your body mass, right? A 300 pound person losing two pounds a week, that's actually totally reasonable. A hundred pound person losing two pounds a week? That would be highly concerning. So I like that as just a general average, but usually they're promising something that just sounds good enough to be great for marketing, right? I lost this many pounds in this many weeks and it just sounds almost too good to be true, but not quite, but it's probably too aggressive.

Philip Pape: 5:09

The next red flag is that they're telling you to cut foods out, and so this is the red flag that, honestly, the vast majority of diets pin themselves on Food groups like carbohydrates or fat. Most diets don't tell you to cut protein thank goodness, although maybe we're going to see that next but even specific foods. They'll tell you to not eat these specific foods because they are insert fear-mongering adjective here inflammatory. It drives me crazy, right? So if anything tells you you can't eat something, that's a red flag. And then the next one is if it tells you you have to fast or switch up your meal timing to a certain feeding or fasting window, that is a red flag as well, because, again, there is no right or wrong feeding window. It's going to depend on what works for you across a variety of factors.

Philip Pape: 6:00

Fasting myths that have to die and that was the point of that episode was to talk about how none of the claims for fasting actually hold up in terms of them being superior to non-fasting. They may work for you, but they are not superior. And so that's the red flag is if it says you have to include certain fasting windows. And then the final red flag is that they claim to reset or boost or fix your metabolism, with the caveat that I probably have used adjectives similar to that, either inadvertently or in a colloquial way, because it's great for marketing, and I admit that I'm trying to do that less and less now. I don't think I use the word reset. I definitely don't use the word fix. I'm pretty clear that you cannot damage or harm your metabolism. The word boost, yeah, I've used that, but I usually use it in the context of the philosophy of boosting your metabolism through having more muscle mass or moving more, things like that. But a diet that says eat this way and it's going to boost your metabolism, that is the red flag, all right.

Philip Pape: 7:03

So I want to break down today's episode, which I have no idea how long it's going to be, but it's an important topic. I actually broke it down into four segments to make it more accessible. I'm first going to talk about why crash diets. They seem logical and pretty and neat, but they lead to poor outcomes for some very clear reasons, and once you understand them, you know to look for them when it comes to assessing diets. Number two is the science of how your body adapts to aggressive calorie cutting, because that is the root of a lot of the problems people have. Number three is I'm going to give you five specific ways that crash dieting makes fat loss specifically harder, and then, finally, the alternative based on evidence that works for you to give you the sustainable results that I think you're looking for and why you're listening to this podcast.

Philip Pape: 7:49

So let's start with why crash diets seem to make perfect sense, and the logic goes something like this we know that we need a calorie deficit to lose fat. All right, now, if you don't accept that to begin with, go back to Nutrition 101, energy balance, physics, thermodynamics, whatever you want to call it. It is an absolute fact that we need to eat less than we burn to lose weight on the scale and ultimately then to lose fat to lose meaningful fat. Can you lose fat and build muscle at the same time? Yes, and then we're getting into nuances, but in general, you need a calorie deficit. So if a 500 calorie deficit leads to losing one pound per week, then a thousand calorie deficit should mean losing two pounds, right, and then a 1500 calorie deficit, even faster. So just cut as many calories as you can, eat as little as you can, you're good, right?

Philip Pape: 8:39

The problem with this linear way of thinking is it ignores the fundamental complexity of human physiology. Your body is a very sophisticated system, and it adapts to protect you from what it perceives as a threat to survival, to homeostasis, to vibrancy and vitality. Right. When you cut calories too aggressively, you are triggering a bunch of sensors in your body. You're triggering a cascade of protective adaptations that are going to make fat loss way more difficult. And if you think about it from an evolutionary perspective, our bodies evolved during times when food was often scarce and the ability to adapt to reduce calorie intake by becoming more efficient with energy use was then crucial for survival. And so this isn't a flaw in our biology. It's a really amazing feature that helped keep our species alive.

Philip Pape: 9:31

And so this brings us to the science of how your body responds to aggressive calorie cutting, because when you suddenly drop your calories very low just, we're talking not a normal calorie deficit, but a very aggressive calorie deficit, which you will have from many diets. When you cut out a bunch of foods, you cut out a bunch of processed foods, cut out a bunch of carbs or even go on one of these weight loss drugs, for example, you're going to have potentially a huge drop in calories, right, because you don't have an appetite for the drugs in particular, but also because you cut out calorie dense foods. And so what happens? So let's say, you drop well more than 500 calories a day. First, your BMR, your basal metabolic rate that is, the energy you burn at rest begins to decrease beyond what would be expected from weight loss alone, because when you lose body mass, your BMR goes down.

Philip Pape: 10:20

But we have found that research from, in fact, dr Eric Trexler and others have been involved in this research shows that the adaptation that occurs can reduce your daily energy expenditure by 200 to 300 calories within weeks of starting an aggressive deficit, and I've seen, over time, clients' metabolisms drop by up to 600, 700, 800 calories over a long time. But they can happen quickly, especially when it's aggressive. And then, second, your NEAT, your non-exercise activity thermogenesis all the movements you do outside structured exercise naturally decreases. You fidget less, you take fewer steps, you generally move less throughout the day, right, and a lot of it's unconscious some of it's conscious, but a lot of it's unconscious and studies show that this can account for another two to 400 calorie reduction in your daily energy burn, right. Third, then you have your exercise activity thermogenesis how many calories you burn during your training, your workouts, your structured cardio all of that becomes less efficient. The same workout literally burns fewer calories as your body adapts to preserve energy. You actually become more efficient during fat loss. One study found participants burned 20 to 30% fewer calories doing the same exercise after 12 weeks of aggressive dieting. So it stacks on top of itself.

Philip Pape: 11:42

And then on top of all of this is that hormone levels shift to keep you alive, to preserve your energy, to preserve your existing precious fat storage, which is very important from an evolutionary standpoint. So this means decreased thyroid hormone production, reduced testosterone and growth hormone, increased cortisol, changes in hunger and satiety hormones like leptin and ghrelin, right. And these are not permanent. That is very important to understand. These adaptations are temporary. They're your body's natural, reversible response to what it perceives as a threat, and the problem is that crash dieting it's like a threat, it triggers them. It triggers these adaptations much more dramatically than a more moderate calorie deficit, even though any deficit's going to trigger them to some extent. Crash dieting triggers them much more, to the point where you're kind of past the precipice, and it makes it very difficult. So then this brings us to five specific ways that crash dieting makes sustainable fat loss harder.

Philip Pape: 12:45

We're sort of connecting these concepts of what happens to specifically when we're thinking of fat loss. All right, number one accelerated muscle loss. This is the whole purpose. When we're trying to lose fat but not lose muscle and improve our body composition, this is the whole purpose. When we're trying to lose fat but not lose muscle and improve our body composition, this is the whole purpose of keeping a fat loss phase moderate. Actually, when you cut calories too aggressively without adequate protein and resistance training, that's the worst case.

Philip Pape: 13:12

Research shows up to 40 to 50% of the weight lost can come from lean mass. So a lot of you out there, if you're listening and you're not strength training, you're not eating enough protein. Don't go into fat loss yet, because you're going to lose muscle and then you're not going to lose fat, or you're going to lose some fat but you're also going to lose muscle. That's the problem, you know. I think somebody tried to argue with me about this on I don't know where it was on YouTube and say, like, show me the research that says you don't lose fat when you lose. And I said no, no, no. The issue isn't that you don't lose fat, it's that, along with fat, you lose a bunch of muscle. I'd rather you lose only fat.

Philip Pape: 13:47

Another study found that aggressive dieters lost twice as much muscle as those taking a moderate approach, even with the same total weight loss. And again, this is all accelerated when you're not training, when you're not eating protein, when you are lifting weights and you are eating protein, you can actually mitigate this quite a bit, and that's why you can go somewhat aggressively, depending on how long it is, and not lose muscle. But again, that's a little bit more of an advanced strategy once you've got all this stuff dialed in. And I talked about that on other episodes, such as the January 6th New Year's episode about six ways to lose fat in 2025. So check that one out Now.

Philip Pape: 14:25

Why does all this matter? Right, muscle tissue we know it burns more calories than fat when it's at rest. Right, and so we want to have more muscle for a variety of reasons. But that's just from a metabolic and from a calorie burning perspective. It's going to make fat loss harder when you don't have the extra muscle and you start to lose it and your metabolism decline accelerates, and that's the worst thing we want to happen, all right.

Philip Pape: 14:48

The second thing is that you'll get increased hunger and cravings, well beyond what you would if you were at a moderate deficit. So it's almost like an exponential curve. The more aggressive you cut, the more you ramp up those hunger and cravings because the hormonal adaptations that happen. They are making you hyper-focused on food. For a reason and you've probably heard maybe have heard of the famous Minnesota starvation experiment, which gave us a lot of research that we still rely on today Participants in that study became obsessed, literally obsessed, with food. That's all they can think about. They had intense cravings. Many developed binge eating behaviors that persisted after the study. So that alone, from a sustainability perspective, if you think about dropping your calories to the point where you can tolerate it versus past that point, that makes a big difference on whether you're successful.

Philip Pape: 15:40

Number three here is compromise training performance. So because we are trying to prioritize fat loss and not muscle loss and therefore we want to train, we also want the fat loss itself to not chicken and egg us out of training properly, right? So if you don't have enough fuel, so if you don't have enough fuel, if you don't have enough recovery, your workouts are going to suffer. And I guess the irony is that we are deliberately cutting down on fuel and recovery by going into a fat loss phase. So we have to find the right balance, otherwise you just can't push as hard, you can't lift as heavy, you can't maintain the proper intensity, get that stimulus for muscle preservation and then you'll burn fewer calories and it all stacks on top of itself. So think about training and performance. That's huge.

Philip Pape: 16:25

Number four is psychological burnout, mental burnout, right? Extreme restriction, then, requires willpower, and that is not something we have to rely on. Is willpower, discipline and always being on and consistent and perfect? No, we don't want to have to rely on it. We want to enjoy our life and the fact that life is fluid comes and goes. Stress comes in and out, people come in and out. Our situation changes weekly, if not daily, right? And we know that willpower is this finite resource.

Philip Pape: 16:53

Psychology tells us that most people hit a breaking point pretty early on if they go too aggressively and then you realize that this fast, quick fix type of deal is not all it's cracked up to be. It doesn't even give you the result, even if it's just pure weight loss. Oftentimes you won't even get it because you can't stick with it. You hit a breaking point. Only the people who really white knuckle it out, that really just stick with it with their discipline yeah, they'll finally get it. You hit a breaking point. Only the people who really white knuckle it out, that really just stick with it with their discipline yeah, they'll finally get it. And then they're still going to have all the other problems like muscle loss and hunger and everything else. So then it just becomes impossible and that's not sustainable.

Philip Pape: 17:25

The last one number five is the rebound weight gain. Studies are consistently showing between 80 and 95% of crash dieters regain the weight within one to five years. Right and remember, crash dieting is something that adheres to any of the red flags that I mentioned earlier. So don't think that you are not crash dieting because you're doing keto or you're doing intermittent fasting. There is a crash dieting aspect to that that's going to make it unsustainable. And then, more concerning is when people fail to sustain the results, they actually usually end up heavier than their starting weight because they've lost muscle mass. So not only they're heavier, they've got even higher percentage of body fat at that heavier weight. And now they've prolonged their metabolic adaptation which, although I mentioned it's temporary, there are aspects of it that permanently change. If your body composition has changed, granted, you can come back and restore it with bringing back your muscle mass, with losing some body fat, but know that that is what happens. So what's the alternative to all of this? What do you actually want to do?

Speaker 2: 18:32

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement, for all of our help. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 19:18

All right, I'm going to break it down into just three key principles that I think are the most important. Sometimes I can go down a rabbit hole and give you like a million things to do. These are three principles that I work with all my clients to incorporate as part of their skill set, and if you just think about these, write them down, put them on a post-it, put them on your fridge, they're going to go a long way. The first principle of sustainable fat loss is doing it moderately, like doing all things moderately. Create a moderate deficit, right. Create a moderate deficit that allows for adequate nutrition, energy performance, while still getting you the result. So moderate for you is going to be moderate for someone else. I usually talk about a sweet spot of around a half percent 0.75% of your body weight a week. Some people might be lower, some people might be higher, some people it's a lot lower. You may be the type of person that has a fairly low metabolism, not a lot of wiggle room, and you've got to go at like a 200 calorie deficit a day and it's going to take you many months to get to the number you want. Well, so what? You're going to get there as opposed to either not get there or get there in the wrong way and lose a bunch of muscle, make it unsustainable, regain the weight all the things we just talked about. So the moderate rate of loss is actually a very important principle to think about because it can override all the other trade-offs you're thinking of. Right, if you're thinking, okay, I'm going to speed it up at this point because nothing's going on in my life, but it causes a lot more hunger, you might not stick to it. Right, if you are trying to hit a certain date and then you go at a faster rate of loss, you might end up losing muscle. So there's a lot of reasons not to do it aggressively. There are a small subset of reasons where you can do it aggressively, but again, that's beyond the scope here when we're talking about general principles for sustainability.

Philip Pape: 21:09

So the moderate deficit is number one. The second one is that muscle preservation, and I put that as a catch-all principle because then it causes you to think of your protein intake and your resistance training together, but also things like carbs. So it kind of ekes into different aspects of this. We want enough protein, but we also want enough carbs. We also want to train consistently, but not so much that we over-train or don't have recovery during fat loss, that we're starving or whatever, and it kind of forces you to think about all those things. It helps you maintain your metabolic rate. It ensures that weight loss comes primarily from fat tissue and you're going to have better body composition outcomes.

Philip Pape: 21:47

And then the third principle here is planning in diet breaks and recovery periods. So, combined with the moderate loss, the preserving muscle, then the breaks allow you to think about your life. This is where many people go wrong. They think they want to just keep pushing harder when progress slows or they're going to keep going, going, going, going and never stop. But we know that taking planned breaks up at maintenance calories is going to help you, and so we're going to talk about that. And yeah, while it gives you a short physiological break, it's mainly a psychological break and then it teaches you. Oh, I can do this for a long time because I know that I can accommodate parties and holidays and travel and trips and it's not a big deal. I'm just taking a quick little pauses along the way, and that is also part of principle number one of being making it sustainable and moderate in terms of the rate of loss, all right. So hopefully that all made sense to you guys, and I like to think in terms of an engineer, you know that. And so what we're doing is we're building a system.

Philip Pape: 22:48

When I say what's the worst diet, it's the diet that doesn't give you a system for making it work for you. But what does a good system look like? Well, a good system is going to be efficient, which means you use minimal resources, and that can include mental resources. It's reliable, meaning you know if you do it it's going to get you a result consistently. Three, it has to be sustainable. So that means you've got to be able to do it and turn the crank, no matter what's going on in your life. You can keep doing it over and over again. You could ostensibly do it forever. I mean a true fat loss phase. We want it to be a fixed duration, but you're going to be able to do the process no matter what life throws at you, even if you adjust the scale or the magnitude of it. And you'll be able to take breaks. You'll be able to periodize and those sorts of things. And then the fourth thing about your system is it should be adaptable. So I kind of just alluded to that. But it needs to be able to respond to changing conditions, no matter what. Like, you've always got plan B, c, d, you always have. If, then and it's kind of built in right A crash diet fails every one of these criteria.

Philip Pape: 23:56

It's inefficient because, well, the main reason it's inefficient is it wastes muscle tissue, so it doesn't even get you what you want right, and so, by definition, it just fails. It's unreliable because the results are going to vary wildly. I can't guarantee that you're going to have a certain body composition coming out of it. It's just so chaotic. It's also unsustainable because it just fights against what your body's trying to do. Because it just fights against what your body's trying to do, or put another way, it causes your body to over-respond when it comes to homeostasis, hormones, muscle loss, body fat storage, etc. And then it is inflexible because there is nowhere to go when progress stalls, except just eat less, and that's the worst thing.

Philip Pape: 24:37

Whereas a moderate approach checks all the boxes, preserves muscle, produces results that are reliable, you're confident, you can do it. It works with your body's adaptations. It also leaves room for adjustments to work with your life whenever you need to, and that's all the time, let's be honest. So, while the crash dieting might seem faster initially, it takes longer to reach your goals when you factor in the recovery time, the rebound, weight gain, the loss of muscle and I hope I couldn't make it any clearer than that. Okay, I don't think I said that right. I don't think I can make it any clearer than that.

Philip Pape: 25:11

So the worst weight loss diet isn't really a diet, it's the approach and it's the mindset that that approach creates. It's something that teaches you to view your body as an enemy, which is not what you want. You want to work with it, right. It promotes an unsustainable and all or nothing mentality, a poor relationship with food, and there's no way you can have lasting change under those conditions. But if you're armed with science, like we covered today, and what actually works, a flexible approach, you can be among the less than 5% that choose a different path that respects your body's superiority, in that your body knows what it's supposed to do. It delivers the results you want. It builds sustainable habits and preserves the muscle and the metabolic health that make long-term fat loss possible. And, of course, if you are ready to create your own sustainable fat loss plan, if you want a little bit of expert guidance.

Philip Pape: 26:06

Go ahead and book that free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment with me. It is not a sales call, it is a hey, how you doing. Let's get to know each other, tell me what's happening, and here's a few things you can try that are going to give you some clarity. We'll identify what's been holding you back. We're going to create a simple, science-based action plan, and I usually end up sending you some guides or resources along with that if not a workout program, for example and it's going to help you lose fat? It will. It's going to help you maintain muscle. It's going to help you maintain and improve your metabolic health. Just by applying those principles, click the link in the show notes to schedule your free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment. And with that, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember the best approach isn't the quote-unquote fastest one, it's the one that lets you maintain your results for life. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Why Food is NOT the Problem When Your Diet Falls Off Track (Ali Shapiro) | Ep 271

Do you feel trapped in a cycle of dieting and frustration? Why do your best efforts with food seem to fail when it matters most? Is it possible that your food struggles are about something deeper than food itself?

Philip (@witsandweights) explores the deeper roots of food consistency with integrative health pioneer Ali Shapiro. Ali shares why food battles often represent safety battles, how to identify hidden triggers and a practical framework to break free from emotional eating. Learn why food is more than fuel, how unmet emotional needs affect your habits, and how to achieve sustainable food freedom.

Ali Shapiro is the creator of Truce with Food and host of the Insatiable Podcast, and she brings a fresh perspective to overcoming diet struggles by addressing the emotional and psychological roots of our relationship with food.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:38 Why food struggles aren’t about food
6:32 Understanding emotional hunger
11:58 Tools Vs. Deeper psychological work
18:37 Food and the human experience
25:32 Stress, loneliness, secret eating, and falling off track
29:58 The T.A.I.L. framework for emotional triggers
36:18 Facing triggers and learning growth
38:34 Ali’s personal journey with food and health
45:04 Finding trust and meeting your needs
51:26 Compassionate witness and feeling significant
55:45 Outro

Episode resources:

• Ali’s Truce with Food program

• Insatiable Podcast

• Website: alishapiro.com

• Instagram: @alimshapiro 

• Youtube: @alishapirollc.founderoftru9290 
  

Why Food is NOT the Problem When Your Diet Falls Off Track

If you’ve ever felt like food is your greatest struggle, despite your best efforts to track, measure, and follow all the rules, you’re not alone. But what if the real battle isn’t about food at all? This article unpacks why food is often a symptom of deeper emotional and psychological triggers—and how understanding these can lead to freedom with food.

The Root Cause: Safety and Belonging

According to Ali Shapiro, creator of Truce with Food, our struggles with food often tie back to a need for safety and belonging. From childhood to adulthood, our emotional systems are wired to seek these needs, and food often becomes a substitute when we feel unsupported, inadequate, or isolated.

For instance:

• Emotional eating can be a response to feeling overwhelmed or lonely.

• Overeating in secret often signals a lack of support in your life.

• Cravings may reflect a need for comfort or reassurance rather than physical hunger.

Understanding these connections is the first step toward lasting change.

The TAIL Method to Identify Emotional Triggers

Shapiro outlines a practical framework called the TAIL Method to help identify emotional triggers behind food struggles. Ask yourself: What’s at the TAIL end of your food noise?

1. Tired: Are you exhausted, physically or emotionally? Rest might be the missing ingredient, whether it’s physical rest like walking or emotional rest through support.

2. Anxious: Is uncertainty or external stress weighing on you? Focus on feeling resourced rather than in control.

3. Inadequate: Are you doubting your capabilities? A compassionate witness—someone who offers support without judgment—can help you navigate self-doubt.

4. Lonely: Do you feel isolated or disconnected? Addressing your need for belonging or significance can reduce feelings of loneliness.

By recognizing these triggers, you can meet your emotional needs without turning to food.

Why Falling Off Track Isn’t a Failure

Many of us view “falling off track” as a failure, but Shapiro argues there’s no such thing as a track. Life is fluid, and every challenge is an opportunity to learn and grow. Instead of beating yourself up, ask:

• “Why does this behavior make sense?”

• “What feels hard right now?”

• “What do I really need in this moment?”

The answers to these questions can help you uncover the unmet needs driving your behavior and develop more effective strategies to address them.

Food as a Metaphor for Belonging

Food is deeply tied to our sense of belonging, whether it’s sharing meals with loved ones or the comfort we derive from childhood foods. Shapiro explains that food noise often reflects a hunger for connection, safety, or meaning.

For example:

• A parent hiding in the pantry to eat after a stressful day might be seeking respite from feeling unsupported in parenting.

• A corporate worker stress-eating at their desk might be masking feelings of inadequacy or unfulfillment.

The solution lies in addressing the root need—whether that’s support, connection, or a sense of purpose.

Building Self-Trust and Food Freedom

Breaking free from food struggles requires rebuilding self-trust. Start small:

1. Identify your triggers using the TAIL method.

2. Meet your needs with appropriate actions, like asking for help, creating emotional rest, or practicing self-compassion.

3. Shift your mindset from “fixing” yourself to learning from your experiences.

With time, these steps can help you achieve true freedom with food—no white-knuckling required.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been fighting food for what feels like forever, tracking, measuring, following rules, only to fall off track again and again, and you're exhausted from food being the project in your life, this episode is for you. Today, we are discussing how the real battle isn't about food at all. It's about something much, much deeper. You'll discover why what you've tried in the past has not worked and how to finally move to a place that's less lonely and isolating and much more confident when it comes to your eating habits, so you can finally attain that freedom with food. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are daring to discuss the deeper roots of food consistency with Ali Shapiro.

Philip Pape: 0:57

Now, ali is a rebel with a serious cause, a pioneer in integrative health, the creator of Truce with Food, and she's the host of the top-ranked Insatiable podcast. Go, give that a follow. I think she's going to have me on soon, so follow that podcast. She has spent over a decade helping clients break free from the cycle of dieting frustration, burnout, not to mention the challenge that we face in the industry with the medical system, diet, culture, body positivity, movements and she does that in her own unique way. And what I love about Allie's approach is how she goes way past those surface level ideas and the motivational memes about consistency and she instead helps solve the emotional and psychological roots of why we fall off track. So today you're going to learn why food battles are actually safety battles, how to identify your hidden eating triggers and a practical path to food freedom that doesn't require white knuckling your way with an unsustainable solution. Allie, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Ali Shapiro: 1:57

Thanks for having me, philip, this is going to be good.

Philip Pape: 2:00

It's going to be awesome. Yeah, the stuff that you talk about with food safety and the relationship with food is super interesting and I think a lot of people listening they struggle with these different thoughts that they have. Right, somebody might say you know, I just can't stop eating, or I have no discipline around food, or it might be very narrow and topic, like I can't help but eat those Hershey kisses every time I see them, right, right. So I mean, so how do you actually? You know, we know it's not about food. I think is where we're going to get to in this conversation. They're telling you something else. So in your words, you've mentioned something about the relationship with safety being part of that. What do you mean by that?

Ali Shapiro: 2:38

Yeah, and I love that we want to define our terms, because safety could be a lot of things, right? Let me start with the food as an example, because it can be about the food and you talk about this a lot on Wits and Weights. So if you think about like, you're sometimes having thoughts of like oh my God, I need I don't know a burger or something, right that might be. Your body feels physically unsafe because your blood sugar isn't balanced right. It's like you don't have enough protein, right, and so that food noise is driven by your body saying I am unsafe. I may have the calories, but I don't have the nutrition I need, right.

Ali Shapiro: 3:12

So I think- True hunger true hunger, yes, physical hunger, true hunger, right. So I look at everything through this lens of safety. What most people, if we go out one ring, if we're looking at like safety rings, like I think of like physical, emotional, spiritual, right, but emotional is kind of in between that and all of us have this deep primal need to basically feel at home in the world, right, feel at home in our bodies, feel at home when we're at home with our families, feel at home at work in a way that we feel we can contribute. So I think we can think of emotion as safety, as like abstractly kind of feeling at home, but on a biological level we also need to feel, we also need to know that we have that safety.

Ali Shapiro: 3:58

So, even though in America we kind of have this highly individualistic like and I'm all for personal responsibility, this is about holding the end and we need each other. And so one of the really interesting things that you know wasn't available to Maslow when he was creating his hierarchy of needs that neuroscience has now proven is that the sense of belonging is more important than even having your basic needs met, and that's because we can think about safety as when you're a child, right, you need someone to care about you to get your basic needs met right the caretaker, feeling at home and being at home with that caretaker and again, there's lots of variations in that definition but you need someone to care about you enough that they're going to get you to where you can be self-sufficient. But still, even as adults, we still have a need to have other people and feel like we have our place in the world and that we can contribute. And so that's what I mean by feeling a sense of safety.

Philip Pape: 5:01

Yeah, that's a very it's a profound and almost mind-blowing place to flip the idea of the you mentioned Maslow's hierarchy of needs and saying that we are social creatures. You have no argument for me on that at all. I used to be a very much like independent cause, like it's we're all you know, in my idealistic youth right, it's all me. But I've come to realize through family and friends and business and life and also, like you said, biology and what we've learned about evolution, that we wouldn't be humans without depending on each other. For that, I mean, babies are helpless for the first few months of their life because they're able to survive with humans.

Philip Pape: 5:35

So your work then proposes that this food noise gets louder because we are feeling separate or feeling alone. And I think you even talk about the physiological piece of that, like the stimulants or the attachment chemicals in our brain, I believe. So I mean let's keep going down that thread, just so people understand, okay, what exactly is happening. And we're not talking about physical hunger, we're talking about what do you call it? Physiological or psychological, emotional hunger.

Ali Shapiro: 6:03

Yeah, I mean, I would say it's emotional hunger, like it's the metaphor, the metaphor of hunger, right, cause our body doesn't speak in language, it speaks in metaphor.

Philip Pape: 6:12

I mean that's good, stop Hold on A metaphor of hunger. Okay, this is great. A client in my recently went back and forth Cause I was saying let's address your hunger, and she's like it's not hunger. It's not hunger, it's cravings. I'm like oh, I see what you're getting at and I think this is part of the thing we want to clear up with terminology is that hunger is like not just food hunger, it's hunger for many other things.

Ali Shapiro: 6:32

Yes, yes, and you can. I mean, I've sometimes call it phantom hunger, but I think it's also realizing that, yes, hunger is a metaphor, right, and so once you know your blood sugars, balance, your gut health, your strength, like, you got all the physical safety Right and you're still having that food noise. So an example I'll give you a couple of food examples of how people, when that food noise, when it's an emotional food noise, right, and these are come straight from client examples. Right, I was with, I was just starting with the client and she's like OK, so I'm all or nothing. And I don't really. I think all or nothing is that's a whole other podcast. But I was like okay, so when do you get into your nothing phase where you're like chuck it, f it, right.

Ali Shapiro: 7:13

And she's like well, like I'll be eating really healthy, and then my, my kids want to go to Chick-fil-A and we're rushed and it's convenient and easy, and so I will just be like, okay, I'm going to just eat this for this lunch, and then the whole day is ruined, right, and what we were able to parse out is that she actually has a story that her needs are inconvenience.

Ali Shapiro: 7:34

She's like I've been told I've been in inconvenience, like my whole life, right, and so it's like okay. So in that moment she didn't even know that she had needs, right. It was just like, oh, I want it to be easy, I have this food noise. This is the most easy path to that, because feeling our emotions actually requires space and time, because so many of us are going going, going. But that's an example of and it's unconscious, not because it's deep and dark, but just because you're going on automatic pilot. But she had a need there to feel like I want to eat something healthy, but she thought that was in conflict with what her kids wanted and she didn't want to be an inconvenience there.

Philip Pape: 8:15

Okay, I see she didn't want to be an inconvenience herself too. Isn't it funny how we separate our kids from ourselves sometimes like that, unconsciously or not.

Ali Shapiro: 8:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's like, okay, we need to work on, like how is this not like a being health, eating healthy is all on you, like you have to carry the family that way, like because when we're often in all or nothing, we we think we're in, things are there's a conflict between our needs and everyone else being happy. So that's like the safety right? Oh, if people are happy and they get their way, then I'm still going to be included. Here is kind of the assumption in that particular case. So there was a need to want to eat healthy, but there was also a competing need, the perception of being an inconvenience, and obviously you can reconcile both of those once you understand what's happening. But that's one example of emotional safety.

Philip Pape: 9:07

Yeah, and how? How did you uncover that? Like, how does someone listening uncover that? Obviously, we're all we're always going to say go talk to Allie, you know she's a great coach join her program and all. But in reality, you know, people want to understand. What are the tools here, what are the strategies for doing that?

Ali Shapiro: 9:25

Yeah Well, I think the first thing is to realize that when you have phantom hunger hunger that's not physical the go-to knee-jerk reaction is to beat yourself up to be like, oh, I told myself I wasn't eating the Hershey's today, why am I? I can already see myself going home and eating them. Or if they're at your co-worker's desk, I don't know, do people work in person anymore? It's true? It's true, the bulls are there. Yes, you're still there all these years later. I knew they were there when I was in corporate.

Ali Shapiro: 9:50

So the first thing is just to say, like, why does this make sense? So, rather than beating ourselves up because you were talking earlier about that physiological need for safety, and so what you were talking about is what Dr Deborah McNamara talks about in her book Nourish. She's a child developmental psychologist, but she talks about how food stimulates attachment chemicals, but it doesn't give us the deeper belonging that we actually need. So from the time we're born, right, food gets coupled with someone cares about you. So as adults, we turn to the food. We feel like someone cares about us, but we don't actually have the support of the. It's not a caretaker when you're an adult, but it's people that care about you, including yourself, advocating for your needs. So that's why you have to say first of all, why does this make sense? Like on a primal level, I need to feel this emotional safety and it's my hunger. This emotional hunger, as a metaphor, is pointing me to the fact that I do not have it Like that is all that's telling you. It's a symptom, not the problem.

Philip Pape: 10:57

And do you? What is your opinion on the idea that there are different angles of attack for this right and there are different tribes and camps and I know how you're big, like me, you are skeptical of anybody who goes all in one direction but there's the idea that we can use tools and strategies to process our way through, In other words, not necessarily have to uncover the root cause, just find something that helps us move forward and then maybe it eventually resolves the issue, versus going all in on the psychology side, uncovering your deepest, darkest secrets from when you were a child, to like figure it all out, right, Like a therapist. Like what is your thought on that spectrum? Do you know what I'm asking? When it comes to like like you could just change your environment that's a common strategy that's talked about. Right, Like change your kitchen environment and put food where you don't see it, and like those strategies you know what I'm saying and they can help people without always understanding the trigger fully, and I think you need both. It depends, but I'm curious on your thoughts.

Ali Shapiro: 11:58

Yeah, that was gonna be my answer. I think if someone's new to all of this, they should try that, and Someone's new to all of this they should try that. And if it works, my clients have tend to be overwhelmed by all of that. They've tried it and I think of like, for example, some of my clients had food insecurity as a kid Right and so them not having food in the house makes them feel emotionally unsafe. It's like I even though I know logically and this actually I had I actually had a couple of clients who were cruising and then COVID came and they just needed one spot session because they were like, why is this food noise back?

Ali Shapiro: 12:28

Like I have not had this for years. And I was like what feels hard about it? Like that's the next question, what feels hard about right now? And it was like, oh my God, there's supply chain issues. I can't get all the food I need. I'm. I am back to being eight years old again and not knowing if we were going to be able to eat at night, and so these.

Ali Shapiro: 12:46

I think what ends up happening is we give people these blanket prescriptions, not knowing like what does that trigger Cause, even if you change your environment. Even if you do all of this stuff, you still have to be with other people, you still need to interact with people, and so it's, you know, and I, for example, I also had one client. She was trying to do mindful eating, okay, and we were actually working on her feeling really alone and isolated in her life and she had friends around her and all this stuff, but she, there was still stuff that she didn't, she didn't realize she wasn't bringing like her full self to her relationships, right, and so she ended up feeling quite alone, even though she was around other people who liked her and cared about her, and she was like, you know, I've tried the mindful eating stuff. I know I'm not supposed to listen to podcasts, I know I'm supposed to breathe and she's like, but when I do that it's so apparent how alone I am.

Philip Pape: 13:38

Like yes, cause it's now she's, so she's just with her own thoughts. She's even more alone.

Ali Shapiro: 13:42

Okay, interesting, I was like, turn on the podcast. Like, like, you know, like, like that's not, and I think cause you're an engineer, you'll appreciate there's. There's like a sequence over strategy, right, like, okay, all of these strategies will work at some point at potentially for you, but what is the sequence that it makes sense?

Ali Shapiro: 13:59

right so if someone is. You know, I have a lot of clients who have, like you know, hashimoto's or maybe on the pre-diabetic track or something right, like if you may need to stabilize yourself physically, um, but if you've already tried that and it's like I know what to do but I can't do it, um, you know, maybe I need to look at more the psychology. And I would also say and I know that you know it's both camps, but we know what stress this the way that I look at it is like this is whenever you're working on the physiology, you're also working on your psychology, and whenever you're working on your psychology yeah, it's just like an infinity feedback loop.

Ali Shapiro: 14:36

So it's like, oh, the psychology I was going to say is also realizing that so much of our safety is in our body. So it's like these emotional needs generate our thoughts. So I don't, I'm not, I'm. I do more developmental psychology where I'm like, I'm not concerned about all of these thoughts going on. We need to look at the deeper need that makes you think you're, you're trying to be good in your thoughts, but it's driven by a need that needs you to question if that's really the good thing to do.

Philip Pape: 15:04

Right, so like, for example, okay, yeah, no, no, you please, please, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 15:10

So, for example, um, one of my clients, she would find herself, you know, before going out to eat. This was before we started working together. She's like I will go, look at the menu and I will know what I want to do, I want to make the healthy choice. And then I get there and I am just like, go with the flow I'm going to order, you know.

Ali Shapiro: 15:30

And it's like what is happening and it's like, oh, she was feeling high maintenance, like when we actually got to it right, it was like she thought the good thing was to be easygoing and eat with everyone else she felt judged or whatever, for being too prepared or something, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 15:47

Well, the perception and this was based on the past, again, it wasn't deep dark into her childhood. It was just like, oh, my family judged picky eaters right, and so it's like, if I didn't know that I'm putting that on my friends now, which, when I so, then we have her try. It's like, okay, that's a small risk. Next time just say you know what, I'm good, I'm going to order this, like what happens? And it's like, oh, nothing happened In fact. Like it opened up this great conversation about oh, I know this is embarrassing, but I used to feel pressured to eat with all of you guys. And then it opened up this big, deeper conversation, generated more emotional safety about, like you can totally eat what you want. I sometimes feel pressure the next time a couple other of her friends ate order different.

Ali Shapiro: 16:32

And so what's often happening with our perception is we're always bringing the past to the present, right, like all of us. So we're often thinking like the good thing was to just go with the flow, be low maintenance, don't be a burden, and what the task of developmental psychology as adults is to say wait a second. This is what I learned and it's not my work is, even though maybe we will touch on the hard things that happened in childhood. It's really about the cultural conditioning of what everyone thinks is normal. That is good or bad, right, and so it's like that's like normal. The more you do this work, the more you're like normal is bad shit, crazy, but we keep going along.

Philip Pape: 17:16

Yeah, yeah, no, I, I. You hit me so hard there. The cultural cause I was thinking, even thinking of alcohol and like the more extreme things that we rationalize to some nth degree. And it wouldn't make any sense if an alien came to our planet and said what are you doing to yourself? What are you guys doing? It's part of our culture, it's our conditioning, and there's behavioral psychology, there's social psychology and learned behavior. So I think the average person, if they could know more about what you're saying and kind of be just open to it and aware of it, will help maybe interrupt some of those patterns and issue just from the awareness.

Philip Pape: 17:49

Here's my maybe this is a deeper question, or maybe not. Why are we even talking about this? And what I mean by that is why is food itself the thing? Like? Many of your clients are probably just like mine. They're highly independent, they're intelligent, they're disciplined, they're high achievers, they're successful in a lot of things. Why do they struggle with food? I mean and we're talking everybody, like it's almost everybody has some struggle with this. Is it because it's your area of expertise and we're talking about it, or is it literally come to the top of the list because it's something we do, we need every day, as humans, like. What are your thoughts on?

Ali Shapiro: 18:20

that. I love that. You asked that because I'm out in the wild and people are like what do you do? Like the easiest way is to be like I help people who want to eat, eat and be healthy do it. And they can't. And they're like isn't that all of America? And I'm like, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 18:42

But I think it comes down to like nature really designed food to be communal and to help us. Like, if you think about um, like it helped us. If we think about belonging, even if we go out to the original belonging is belonging to the land, right. Like food helps orient us. That's a form of safety, like here's the season you're in, right, here's how to take care of your body.

Ali Shapiro: 19:00

And I think about food being the most intimate relationship we have, like what we eat literally becomes our blood, our bones. Like you can't get more intimate than that. And so I think between that, we feel healthier when we feel rooted into place. We feel healthier when we're rooted into family, into community. And again, I'm pulling from some of Dr Deborah McNamara's book nourish, but she talks about like nature, creating this exquisite design of how you know, mealtime is really about. Like I said before, feeling our feelings requires space and safety, and it's like mealtime is often the chance to like, slow down and feel these feelings and then you have the food as like almost what can't be said right, like if, when I think about when people pass away, what do people do to show you that they're there for you?

Ali Shapiro: 19:53

They, they bring a casserole, they bring you know, and it's so to me it's just like nature. Quote unquote comfort food isn't bad, it's necessary. It's when we're turning to comfort for something that it can't.

Philip Pape: 20:08

It can't fulfill. Yeah, it can't fulfill. Satisfy it can't satisfy. You're insatiable. There you go, yeah, yeah, dr.

Ali Shapiro: 20:13

Gordon Newfield says there's. Who is Dr McNamara's mentor? He says there's nothing as addictive as something that almost works, and it's like the food almost works, but it's the, it's the care that's in in constant, that that is what we really need. And so and I think in our culture that has a lot of food issues I don't think we have a lot of communal care. You're expected to do everything yourself.

Philip Pape: 20:38

The care ensconced in food and the experience of food is what we need. I love that. I like the word ensconce too, but I don't know where that came from.

Philip Pape: 20:47

It's great. I know it's so poetic, right. Like this is great. Yeah, so many things come to mind, like just humanity and culture and religion as well, Like people, different religions and how food is a central part of that, and like we don't want to deny those things. We don't want to like. What you're implying here is that there is a, there can be absolutely a comfort and enjoyment of food, and I've seen people post comments to when I've said that before. I'm like if you can enjoy your food, if it satisfies you and you can eat it without guilt, like that's a great place to be. Oh, you shouldn't enjoy food, or food is fuel. Like. What are your thoughts of those? Are those like you know?

Ali Shapiro: 21:22

food is fuel.

Philip Pape: 21:23

You shouldn't enjoy food, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 21:24

Yeah, I mean, I think it's and right, it is fuel. And again when we think about you. Know, the Surgeon General said loneliness is more dangerous than smoking right or longevity and health right, yeah, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 21:37

And we're in a culture that loves to measure and quantify it, and I love numbers and all that stuff and they, I think, the best things in life. You can't always quantify. Like you know, you, you have kids. It's like, oh my God, I saw that dance recital. It's like, how do you quantify that, that feeling of pride of seeing your kid like nail something after struggling with it, or even in yourself, right Like it, even at the gym? Like it's like when I can, can just get like even like one pound more on the squat rack. It's like it. Yes, I know I've done better because of the one pound, but it's like it's the, the strength and the courage that ultimately is like what makes, I think, life worth meaning. So I think food can be fuel and I think we need. If you're struggling with it or if you, if you, I would just I think of food as a metaphor. So I'd be really interested with someone who thinks it's only fuel. Like what, what are you missing out on that you don't think you're missing out on? Yeah.

Philip Pape: 22:34

Oh, for sure, For sure. And I joke all the time on my podcast how I'm like kind of a foodie and my wife and I are very different. Like she, she can basically eat anything and it does. It kind of all tastes the same to her. I mean she admits that's just her how her taste buds are, you know, there's like two super tasters and whatnot. She, she, appreciates really good food, but I I'm at the next level, like I could tell you what ingredients are in there or not in there. You know this needs more of this, needs more of that. So there is a fun connection and I like how you tied it to how we feel when we accomplish things or when we're in the gym or whatever, because it's so central to the human experience.

Ali Shapiro: 23:06

Well, I was going to go back to one level deeper too, because this is, I mean, this is the spiritual level. But depending on your beliefs, I mean I think God is part of the earth, right, so it's like it's almost also this, like spiritual right and, like you said, all religious traditions, right, revolve around food and the symbolism there. So we can also look at, you know, it is like us, like the universe, right, it's like commuting with that like right. And when you're like I often say to clients, like when have cause, sometimes people will come to me like I struggle with portion control and I'm like, well, tell me a time where portion control was easy.

Ali Shapiro: 23:44

And it's like, oh, when I went to my family's and we make this thing, let's call it sourdough bread. I don't know, that's probably because I just was on Instagram Everyone makes sourdough bread Like, oh my God, it takes so long, but we all do it together and it's like, oh my God, that spiritual experience of being with others and having you know, and just like that is like the nourishment that we really want. And so I also think it's just food is spiritual, for how I I think of the earth and what it provides as part of that spiritual energy that that has created all of this.

Philip Pape: 24:19

Yeah, and if and if I were to connect that for people who are not as spiritual and that's cool I would say that food making food is one of the last primal things we do like, other than sex. Right, it's making food and that, like we don't build our own houses I mean, most of us don't I built a little bit of my house, but that I would never do that again. But you know, we don't build it Like we don't build shelter, we don't hunt for our food even, or we don't do all the primal things. So maybe it's just like a vestige of what's left from our primal, you know nature yeah.

Philip Pape: 24:51

As we're on the internet talking on a podcast. So it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool, it's holding the end.

Ali Shapiro: 24:55

It's holding the end. Yeah, it's holding the end.

Philip Pape: 24:57

I like that holding the end to your partner.

Ali Shapiro: 25:03

Yeah, yes, Say what they said, and.

Philip Pape: 25:05

Conan O'Brien's really good at that. His podcast, what's it called? Conan Meets a Friend One of the best podcasts ever.

Ali Shapiro: 25:12

I really liked him. Why did the nightly show with him not work out? That feels like forever ago, but I was really-.

Philip Pape: 25:18

I think he's driving now though on the podcast, you should check it out.

Philip Pape: 25:23

Yeah, it's okay. So I guess, going back to um, see, I always have a bunch of questions and notes that I'd never get to, which is cool, so okay. So, handling stress and the alone, the loneliness of all of this, and then tying that to falling off track with food, where do we want to take it to? What's the next step? Right, so now we've, we understand there's the psychology of it. I understand why food is maybe important on both sides of it. Talk about the loneliness and the stress and handling that and falling off track, because ultimately we want to get back on track, or maybe it's not even a track Like maybe we should talk about. Is there really even a track? Is that a faulty premise? I don't know.

Ali Shapiro: 25:59

I freaking love that you asked that question, because of course, I use that in my marketing, because that's right, but there isn't a track. If you know how to learn from what's happening, it's all the same. You know, and this is I mean. This comes down to religion as well Like, but I mean well, there's certain spiritual traditions that believe like, everything's welcome, it's not a problem, right To try to like right. But in America we believe you have to earn your goodness. So it's like falling off track is bad versus like.

Ali Shapiro: 26:25

Why does this make sense? Why? What can I learn from this? And so I think, if people and I love that you use the word alone, because that is you know, and especially for people listening you know that you feel alone if you're secret eating right Like that's what I tell clients Like, your food is always telling you what your needs are in a metaphor. So a lot of my clients, for example, will like after their kids, like their, their, like their kids are melting down or something they just like escape to the pantry and it's like secret eating Okay.

Ali Shapiro: 26:56

Secret eating yeah, yeah, I got it. Or waiting till everyone's alone. You're doing it in your car at night, whatever. That's a symbol or that's a symptom, symbol, metaphor, whatever you want to say that you're feeling unsupported somehow in your life, so kind of the. And I'm gonna give you these steps and knowing that this can be hard, because often the emotions are so overwhelming that you may have to ask yourself this three or four days after the fact.

Ali Shapiro: 27:17

So in Truths, with Food, I always wait. I always tell people like in the beginning. It's kind of like we're just saying like can we catch this after the fact? Not till you're like two or three months in. Are you going to be able to like catch yourself in the moment, because these needs the more we restrict these emotional needs, kind of like, the more you restrict your hunger, then they come back even more in terms of that kind of unnameable energy that causes people to turn to food. So why does this make sense?

Ali Shapiro: 27:45

And then, when the food noise is happening, right, like if you're my client who was like in the pantry, right With her after, like her kid, like hiding from her kids, right, it's like what feels hard about this, right, and if, again. If you're also eating alone, you might want to say it may not be about what just happened the day, like the moment you left work and now you're in your car. It may. It may be something that happened, but because our emotions take space to like actually feel an unfurl, it's not going to be like this happened and then this, and then the food noise happened. It's going to be like once I act although for many of my clients the food noise is just a constant hum, right, it's like it's like a rock in their shoe.

Philip Pape: 28:24

So it's like it's all the time, which could make it even harder to tie it to the thing, which is why we need to dig in here.

Ali Shapiro: 28:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think saying like, what, what feels hard about this, right, and it's like I feel alone in parenting, right, I feel alone. I'm trying to think of a recent you know, yeah, I feel alone with my family trying to eat healthy, right, I feel alone. Um, I'm trying to think. When I struggled with food, I felt, um, my corporate job was like, um, my corporate job was like stressful but boring. I don't know if that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 28:58

I totally understand that. Yeah, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 29:00

And like, and I again, I was in my early twenties but I had had cancer at 13 and I was like, why am I wasting my time? I don't this feels so hard to like do be spending my all my time, and I don't know what I want to do, and you know. So it's like I felt really and a lot of my friends were like really into climbing the corporate ladder, which I get, but I was just like. That's just not like. You know, you didn't have a purpose.

Ali Shapiro: 29:28

Yeah, like for me that just did not seem enticing you know, I mean, and I was in a competitive corporate job and I was doing that, but I was like this sucks. And again I have friends who love that right, like I love corporate. But it made me feel even more alone because again, having cancer at 13, it sets you on a just a different existential track, let's put it that way. So you want to ask yourself what feels really hard about this and then you want to try to unearth the need that's within that difficulty, right? And there's one of the intermediary steps that you can ask yourself what feels hard about this. You can say what's at the tail end of my food noise? And tail stands for T, a, I, l, and this will help you identify the underlying kind of state of being. So T is for tired, right? So a lot of my clients who are at the end of the night, they're like I deserve this.

Ali Shapiro: 30:19

And it's like why does it make sense? I'm exhausted, I've had no fulfillment all day. It's you know, get up, get the kids work, get home, get the kids, and now it's like this is the only reward.

Philip Pape: 30:33

And it could happen at 3 pm in the afternoon too, right oh?

Ali Shapiro: 30:36

yeah.

Philip Pape: 30:38

Yes, I've heard it all.

Ali Shapiro: 30:39

Yeah, well, and if you're going through perimenopause or menopause and have like sleep issues, you know it could be like first thing in the morning and so T is tired, a is anxious and this is uncertainty and this is uncertainty from the outside. So I don't know about you, but I know a lot of. I had a lot of clients drug come to me during COVID, right, covid was like this uncertain time, like what is happening? How long is lockdown? What are people are sick? I should I go outside, Right? So that uncertainty. We saw alcohol and food consumption like skyrocket, right. Our public health went down considerably, right, not to mention like kids' mental health. So anxiousness is like uncertainty from the outside.

Ali Shapiro: 31:21

Then the I is inadequacy and that is when we're wondering is it me Like? I had a client who introduced with food? It was awesome, she was able to interrupt the cycle because she went to a new job and she was like learning all the systems and everything, but she accidentally did like the wrong project and she's like it made me feel so inadequate and she's like my old way of being would have been like okay, you're going to work and you're going to fix it and then you're going to eat because this sucks. While you're doing this, she's like what I started to do is like I'm going to tell my boss, like you know and, and, but she, so she had to. She felt inadequate. But I was like, are you really inadequate or are you new to the job? You know? So it's like you need someone to be like oh, I have this need for an extension of time and the boss was like, yeah, but I definitely need it by Wednesday.

Philip Pape: 32:13

Let's make sure that you understand, you know, and it was like, oh, my God, you can do that you know she was like, it was probably a big relief.

Ali Shapiro: 32:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when we're feeling inadequate, we're like it's me, not the environment or the contextual, the specifics of the circumstance. And then, last one is that loneliness of like. I just feel separate from here in some way. I feel alone. Often a way that you know that you're having that lonely trigger is you're like if I was thinner, this would not be happening, right? That's a common way of kind of offloading the sense of aloneness of you know, I would. I would be dating now. If I was thinner, I would have already asked for that promotion, if I felt more confident in my body and all of that stuff. Again, holding the end can help and you don't have to wait for that. You can start working on the skills you need to get better communication in relationships or what is the path to the promotion and who do you have to talk to? So those are the triggers of like, when you can say why does this make sense? What's at the tail end of this? And then there's needs within each of those triggers.

Philip Pape: 33:12

Yeah, love it. I love frameworks like that. No, this is really good and I know we could do multiple episodes about each one of these, but I like having that framework where it's definitely not just one thing and we oversimplify it sometimes, and we talked earlier you can't just patch it or bandaid it with a tool or one size fits all like here.

Ali Shapiro: 33:34

Here are the tips for how to blah, blah, blah Right Um, but you can use a framework right. Framework gives you agency.

Philip Pape: 33:37

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure, and it and it's nuanced and it gives you options to kind of dig into each of these. And, as you were saying that, I was thinking, oh yeah, interesting, thinking about my past, where I struggled for like 20 years with food and and I always thought it was a very different way than others. And that's true because we all, we all, get there in different ways. Inadequacy is an interesting one, right that? I assume that's uncertainty from the inside, cause you said, anxiety is uncertainty from the outside, right, self-doubt is an easier way of saying it. Self-doubt is an easier way of saying it Self-doubt.

Philip Pape: 34:07

And I like the example you gave, because there are I bet anybody listening can imagine can think almost every day a situation where you screwed up or did something, or maybe somebody gave you a disappointing answer, right, like I wanted to do this collaboration with another podcaster. His PR person's like said no, he's not interested. And immediately you think, okay, it's me right, like there's something wrong with me. And of course, you could ask, you could say, oh, can you help me understand why? But, like, 90% of the time, it's some other situation that has nothing to do with you. At the same time, I like your thought of nothing is bad, everything is. You should be curious, right, Be curious and look at it as a way to learn, even if it is something you did, I mean sometimes a way to learn, even if it is something you did.

Ali Shapiro: 34:49

I mean, sometimes there is that so Well, and what happens is, like when we struggle with food, it wears away at our self-trust a lot. And so what ends up happening is, if we don't ask those questions like what could I do? Or I love that podcaster example, Like oh, why did I? I remember pitching someone that I was friends with, like friendly, you know how it is, and like I heard nothing back and so I was like, look, I understand your platform is, like, you know, next to mine. If that's the issue, that's fine, I'm just following up. And she's like, no, let's do it. But it was like I mean, that's like a happy ending, but you know, you sometimes in this-.

Philip Pape: 35:21

But you stood in For a while, right, yeah, until you got that answer, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 35:25

But what I'm saying is like, we have that inadequacy trigger will stay until we actually learn the skills of like. So if someone said, if they were like, look, it was great, it's just bad timing and they're going to have an opening in September, it's like okay. Or if they were like I mean, you're a podcaster, I get are horrible, I know yours would not be horrible. But like, if you're someone who keeps getting denied, it's not that it's you, it's the skillset that you can learn. Right To like okay, you need to get better at pitching, otherwise you're going to keep thinking it's you rather than realizing. So that's part of like the work, as well as like all, right, I have this need, I want to be on this podcast, and it's like okay, let's work backwards and figure out because you're capable, right, you can. Yes, yes, sounds like criticism, but now, okay, I know that we're kind of running out of time, but tell me about like, what were the 20 years? Like, what was going on for you, if you think of that break?

Philip Pape: 36:17

Yeah, I mean I I don't get. It's not a big dramatic story, to be honest. Uh, but you know, from from the time I got out of college to when I was about 40, I just didn't know how to eat or train or anything, and so I was constantly dieting and yo-yoing and all of that. But when you mentioned things like eating in secret because I definitely have clients that deal with that and I've thought of my own times in the past doing that, eating in a car or when I was in my 20s and there was relationship issues I would like go to friendlies and buy like this huge chocolate fudge sundae and then just like eat it in my bedroom. You know what I mean and stuff like that, which I couldn't imagine doing now. But you know what. It took a lot of learning about yourself and right and that empathy, that like self-empathy, and tools and practice and falling in your face over and over to like figure it out.

Ali Shapiro: 37:13

So yeah, but can you see, isn't it interesting? Friendlies and relationship issues, doesn't that make sense? It's like, okay, it makes sense because you I don't know what the relationship issue was, but like, let's just say you wanted to be in a relationship or you had a fight, or whatever. It's like, oh my God, I'm feeling alone in this. So it's like the food gives me the attachment.

Philip Pape: 37:27

Exactly.

Ali Shapiro: 37:28

Can you see how?

Philip Pape: 37:29

like that oh for sure, for sure, it lines up.

Ali Shapiro: 37:35

I just I appreciate you sharing because I think everyone listening should ask themselves, like when was food easy for me and when was it hard for me? And you will probably see this theme because once you see it you can't unsee it, but it takes kind of a while because it's invisible, right?

Philip Pape: 37:48

It is, it is and you you can I mean as coaches you can kind of see pretty quickly in talking to someone that maybe they're they're on one side of that precipice or another. Right Like you, can I mean unless, unless they're putting on you know, a bold face, right Like some people might do initially, until you really learn who they are deep, deeper down. But, um, yeah, you can tell in people's language sometimes, like this is not really an issue. Let's focus on the facts and let's get our through our goal and others are like, well, I keep falling back off track on this thing. So now that you asked about me, I actually want to ask about you, cause you mentioned, I know, your history of an early cancer diagnosis. I know you've talked about that on your podcast as well. I mean, where does all this come from and this desire to help people do this? Because I imagine it's from a deep place for you.

Ali Shapiro: 38:34

Yeah, yeah, I mean I started struggling with my weight like probably when I was around oh my God, I'm so bad with like ages but probably like seven or eight, and at the time I didn't understand, like what I know now with my functional medicine. Background is like I had been exposed to pesticides a couple like right before that and I have like an overactive immune system, I mean, based on type of cancer I had, that's what it was. But I started to gain weight around eight or nine years old and I think it was from the inflammation, from the pesticide exposure Cause. I was an active kid, like we ate. My dad was a health and phys ed teacher. My mom grew up on a quote unquote organic farm. They didn't call it organic at the time. It was just like my grandma was all about nutrition, like she believed in that. Like in the forties she was so progressive and so we ate really healthfully and everything.

Ali Shapiro: 39:25

And I just started to gain weight and I tried to do Do you remember Richard Simmons? Oh, yeah, yeah, I tried Weight Watchers at 11. But what had happened in between? That is, I had been bullied in fifth grade and I think and my parents I mean you and I are around, I think the same age, the 80s and 90s people, just I'm only 25, just so you know, just kidding.

Philip Pape: 39:46

No, I'm just kidding, I'm 44.

Ali Shapiro: 39:48

So I'm like a couple of years older than you, but it was like no one has done feelings, you know, until recently. So it was just, and I think I was like so ashamed, like I could have told my parents, but I didn't. And so that's when I would start coming home and eating bagels, like my parents were city school teachers we didn't have bagels in the suburbs yet this is how long ago that was and so there would be these like cinnamon raisin bagels, and I would just come home and be so. I mean, it's called an emotional immune system, which is basically your belonging system but it was so alarmed that it was like, because I had been ostracized right From all of these girls, that was like those bagels saved my life. I mean, they then caused me to gain weight and like then feel even more ostracized and then, yeah, then I got, you know, obviously, went through cancer at 13 and lost a ton of weight and was like the thinnest that I had ever been, and because it was still the early nineties like not a lot of difference of media, I had still internalized that health equals thinness only, and so it felt like there was all this pressure to stay thin, to not, you know, not have a relapse, that.

Ali Shapiro: 40:54

And then when I was in high school, high school I could outrun my eating, like I got up every morning, like you know I mean I was I ran a lot Like I definitely was like, okay, and you get attention, you know, from for me, for from boys, it was like, oh, this is amazing, you know. But then when I went to college which again was that uncertainty trigger, even though I was really excited to go, I was a smart kid, like it wasn't academically challenging, it was just, oh, my God, this is different. It was like I started my emotional eating, started to turn more into binging and stuff like that, and so that that's like a brief, you know history of of my background. But yeah, no, this is.

Ali Shapiro: 41:32

And again, when I found functional medicine in my early twenties and was able to reverse my depression, my IBS, all of this stuff, and lose 15 pounds, but then I couldn't keep it up when I was stressed, I'm like no one has more incentive to be healthy than a cancer survivor, and I know this stuff now that food can be medicine, not just calories, and I was like there has to be more to this, because I'm pretty disciplined, so that's kind of how I came to it and I just you know this, I mean being. I love what you do because you can be with the nuance, but the default narratives in this industry are just like so outdated. And it's like come on, people like let's update our software here, you know.

Lisa: 42:12

Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, philip Pate. With his coaching I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful app called macro factor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me. So thank you, willow.

Philip Pape: 42:55

I get the sense. You know I don't want to generalize, but I get the sense that people, once they learn a little bit of information, they're experts, right, you know what?

Philip Pape: 43:02

I'm saying, oh yeah yeah, and I mean maybe we all do it. I'm sure I do it as well. I try not to. I was having a text chat with a friend of mine lifting buddy, and we were saying how both of us had had mentors early on that taught us the value of humility and like asking stupid questions, like asking. And I told him I had a, a boss of mine, maybe 15 years ago, who knew, you know, he had 20 years of experience and he would always go into a new project asking questions like a third grader Like I initially was shocked because he would ask questions that I would, I feel like other people would feel embarrassed to ask.

Philip Pape: 43:35

But then you realize everybody else wanted to ask the same question. You could tell Cause they're like oh, I'm glad he asked that and and and. That's how he would just learn really fast. So why did I bring that up? Because, oh, we're talking about the industry and I think there has to be that curiosity and openness that you don't know what you don't know, right, right, that's the hardest part. And even what you do know may be subject to change because you don't have all the facts or all the information. So the other cool thing is about you, allie, since we met. How did we meet? I don't know, it was through podcast pitching or something right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 44:26

But like I couldn't figure all this out till I was 40. And I did it in a different way than necessarily uncovering the emotional side. But when I speak to folks like you, who's an expert in this other realm, I love it because you're like you come on here and you teach me and the listener that there are just so many things that we can not that we have to be overwhelmed with, but that we have tools to the process with right To get through these like cause. I talk about data all the time and tracking and awareness, and I think there's a place for that. But some people have other trauma and things that they got to deal with um, unnamed energy or under what did you call it? You called it unnamed energy. Yeah, yeah, well.

Ali Shapiro: 45:06

I mean cause. Some clients call it automatic pilot. Some clients feel like they're like something voracious just comes over me and what it really is is their emotional immune system is so alarmed that they feel so unsupported or their needs are not being met. And there's no amount of like. I always tell clients you can do, you can, you can do all the morning routines, you can. You can have every hack available to you, but we have a primal need to have these caretaking needs met.

Philip Pape: 45:32

Yeah, Belonging yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 45:33

Yeah, yeah. So it's like I'm all about less is more. Self-care is being self-aware these days. Don't get me wrong. I have a sauna too. I mean, I'm not like a purist here.

Philip Pape: 45:46

No for sure, Self-care is being self-aware. No, I love that and it goes both ways. Yeah, absolutely so. When the belonging thing? So just to pull on that a little bit, when we talk about the tail method and understanding where these things come from, how do we then get to the trust that we want? That's the big question. A good way to maybe wrap up this segment today.

Ali Shapiro: 46:10

But I will say for people, I mean I'm not going to get into like the boring academic piece of why this happens, but when people can just start to identify those tail triggers, if they are like in in Truce with Food, we talk about seven inch, seven foot, 70 foot waves. If there's seven inch waves like, they're just like oh, I'm tired, that sometimes that's enough to be like this is, the more you do it, the more you're like oh, this isn't about the food, and so like, the more you can see that even that starts to restore self-trust. Because so many of my clients like I've tried everything right, if there was a solution out there, I would. I would have already known by now like it's, they really feel like they're broken in some way or they love food too much. That's that's also sometimes what people think.

Ali Shapiro: 46:50

So understanding, why does this make sense? What's at the tail end of this that can start, especially in those seven inch smaller stressful situations start to be like oh, so the needs are, when you're tired, you need rest and people think rest is just sleeping. No, there's physical rest, which is I mean, this is your wheelhouse, it's walk, it's walking non-exercise recovery yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 47:15

Yeah, non-exercise activity, thermogenesis, right, right. Neat activities, right, I mean I can't tell you how many of my clients I like gently suggest I'm like walking after meals, walking when you're stressed, walking to be more creative, and it's like once it's like all of us who are super competitive have dismissed walking because we're like it doesn't count, it's not fast, it's not intense, it's amazing. There's other kinds of rest and I'm pulling on I forget her name's work. This is someone's work who has identified these types of rest. But there's emotional rest, right, so hiring someone like you, or coming into Truce with Food, where you can have someone help you figure out what's going on, right, and so that's not all on you. So there's different kinds of rest that you can again, and I like focusing on needs because it offers flexibility, right, I mean some of my clients. I'm just thinking of one client. She's a partner in a law firm, you know, and she's on the 50th floor of the building and it's like so many of these ideas for, like she's like I get, you know, I bill every six minutes. I don't even have time to go down the elevator to the 50th floor, you know. I mean, well, now she's a partner, now she's not the same, but point being is you have to be able to find something that can fit your environment Right. So that's why focusing on needs enables flexibility with uncertainty or anxiousness is often how people can identify.

Ali Shapiro: 48:32

That is, you need to feel resourced. People think they need to feel in control. That's not true. You need to feel resourced in amongst that. So, like if you think about during COVID, you know, if you were someone struggling with with food, how could you have resourced yourself more? And that might mean, you know, I know we were like daycares, like there were no daycares, I just had a baby. It was like we never planned on having a nanny but we ended up having to get a nanny so that like we could both work and it was not the expense that you know we planned on paying, but it was like I don't know how long this is going to happen and my husband and I both work. So it was like you know, you have to find resourcing and resourcing can also be rest right. So some of these you know time resource Yep.

Ali Shapiro: 49:14

Yeah, yeah, but always plan for more time and energy than you think you're going to do when you have to resource.

Philip Pape: 49:18

Yeah, yeah, we were just. We were talking about your new program that you're launching and how like the amount of work that that creates. That you don't necessarily expect and now all of a sudden it's, it's blocks in your schedule you didn't account for and you're like, okay, now I need to move things around. But you have a really excellent, great way of communicating, ali. That I appreciate here. I hope the listeners do as well. Where? Just the way you put the emotional rest right there? That term, I'm going to be using that from now on. Honestly, it's a simple two words that I haven't quite heard people use that, but the fact that you need support and community and someone else to lean on is really, really important, because not only does it give you the emotional rest right, it gives you the extra. It's like you're borrowing their whole history and experience to be your partner in this thing and so then creates future emotional rest too, by accelerating your knowledge and your everything.

Ali Shapiro: 50:09

So, yeah, I just want to give credit. That is not my term. There's a woman I forget what her name is, I'm like totally blanking right now but she is the one who came up with seven types of rest. So I just want to make sure.

Philip Pape: 50:21

I wasn't saying you trademarked it or anything. It's like Kleenex, you know, like we. Just I think that's a problem.

Ali Shapiro: 50:25

Like I really think like you know, giving sourcing, rooting back from where the people who have contributed, because it's all a conversation. We're, all you know, having conversations together. So I just want to give her credit, but I feel like I'm. So If you Google seven types of rest, she has a TED Talk.

Philip Pape: 50:41

It will come up I'm going to do that Seven types of rest, because that again is a very nebulous topic when people talk about rest and recovery. You know, even when I try to do it.

Ali Shapiro: 50:52

It's like okay, creative rest different. There's active and passive, physical rest um emotional rest, and I'm forgetting um a couple of the other. Oh, sensory rest, okay.

Philip Pape: 51:01

Which you know, so I know I know what that is, without even having explained to me. I need some sensory rest, Not right now. This is actually a very rejuvenating conversation, so I and L for the needs as well. Uh, oh well, I, what do you mean from tail? Yeah, so I did T and a. Oh, you mean Cause we're revisiting it? Yes, please, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ali Shapiro: 51:25

Um, so I is. When we're feeling inadequate, we need a compassionate witness, and this is important because I want to define it, because a compassionate witness isn't someone who's going to try to swoop in and fix it for you, right? So a lot of times when my clients are like, oh, I'm struggling with my food, and why did I fall off track, it's like they'll go to like the one person that knows they're struggling and they're like you're beautiful, don't worry about it. Or someone's like why?

Ali Shapiro: 51:49

are you still hung up on that, you know, and it's like, okay, you want someone who trusts that you can figure it out if you just have the space to like have a soft landing. So I just wanted to define that for people Cause, and that's why working with someone like you or me and Truce with Food, you know, is like someone who's like I know how to support you in this with, like you know, making you more self-sufficient. But you first have to like know what's happening and all that stuff. But a compassionate witness with anything, right, like even you know, like my mom friends, like sometimes I'm just like, oh my God, I'm so tired. Like you know you could take care of yourself, whatever. But when you have a toddler and are working and daycare closes and just people being like I know, right, like, it's just like I feel seen.

Ali Shapiro: 52:34

And that actually brings me to L, which is loneliness, and loneliness. We all have a need to feel significant. We have a need to feel like we are contributing and that we matter. And so, really, when we're feeling alone, we have to feel like even our struggles are important and matter. So, like, even if you're my client who's in the cupboard struggling with parenting, it's like, okay, what's important to me here, how you know, do I need to get support? How do I want to show up to myself? What do I value, maybe, is is that need that that needs to be significant, but those are the four needs that that come with those triggers, and then, as those get satisfied, you stop turning to food because the real safety or belonging need is being satiated Is being met.

Philip Pape: 53:17

So that wraps the whole thing up really nicely. Right, because you've got the true needs. You're satisfying them no longer with food. All right, beautiful, I love that. Is there anything else we didn't? It's a lot, I know. And is there anything else we didn't cover that you wish I'd asked about in this whole realm? No, I think it's a great question.

Ali Shapiro: 53:35

I really appreciate you sharing your story because I think that prompted everyone else who's listening to think about that for themselves. Yeah, I could probably do that more.

Philip Pape: 53:44

Maybe I have a little bit of a wall when it comes to that stuff, but it's all good, all right, cool. So I know there's a lot going on in your world. I would like listeners to be able to find you. I also know you have a program launching this month and normally we don't do big promotions on this, but for this specifically, I do want people to know everything you just talked about. They can get that kind of support, so tell us where they can find you.

Ali Shapiro: 54:05

Yeah, if people want to go to alishapirocom. And, like Philip said, my Truce with Food program, which this is actually the 14th year I've run it, or it'll be the 15th year, and it's been featured in all sorts of media. Well, my client's weight loss success has been featured in media, but it's a six month program that helps you author a new story around belonging to find food freedom. No white knuckling required. It's six months, 13 group coaching calls with me and a research-based client, proven framework Cause. Again, frameworks create choice, help you become more self-aware versus um.

Ali Shapiro: 54:37

I attract a lot of perfectionists who, you know, think it's like oh my God, am I going to have to white knuckle and perform this perfectly? And it's not that. And then we also do cover the food piece around blood sugar and gut health. Um, and so yeah, yeah, because it's an integrated program and it is life-changing and people can go to alishapirocom backslash truce with food group program and you can see a ton of testimonials. It's a very thorough page. I'm a very thorough, research-based person, but I also, you know, academia and theories can only take you so far, so you'll see the real world applications. So, for people who want deep and practical, this is like and really want to learn that consistency, staying on track, and to eliminate all, like free up all the energy that the food noise takes and puts that in a different direction for 2025. This is the program for them.

Philip Pape: 55:28

Awesome. I will encourage people to check it out and I'm going to include the exact link. We'll make sure we get the right link in there for folks, so take them right there from the show notes and I encourage you, if you're listening, if this sounds like something you could use the help with and reduce your emotional, get some more emotional rest, allie seems like the right person to go to. So, allie, thank you so much for having this amazing conversation, sharing your expertise, your wisdom, your positive energy. It was great to have you on.

Ali Shapiro: 55:52

Thank you, philip, for having me, and I'm looking forward to having you on Insatiable Me as well. Looking forward to it.

The 6-10 Biofeedback Model for Faster Fat Loss (Balanced Scorecard) | Ep 270

Book your FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment and get personalized guidance on which metrics to track for your situation

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Your fat loss. Is. Stuck. You're even tracking your food and weight. But something's not working.

What if every plateau, stall, or setback could be prevented by knowing which body signals to monitor and how to interpret them?

Learn how to use the Balanced Scorecard approach to organize critical body feedback into a powerful dashboard for fat loss.

I'm revealing my 6-10 Biofeedback Model that I use with every client to identify issues before they happen to keep fat loss moving.

Main Takeaways:

• The 6 core metrics in your baseline fat loss dashboard to measure essential daily feedback

• The Balanced Scorecard framework to organize metrics in 4 categories

• The 10 advanced metrics that provide deeper insights when strategically tracked

• Using multiple organized data points helps prevent plateaus by revealing early warning signs across all aspects of health

Book your FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment and get personalized guidance on which metrics to track for your situation

Unlock Fat Loss with the 6-10 Biofeedback Model

Fat loss isn’t just about tracking calories and stepping on the scale. Your body is constantly sending feedback—signals that can help you break through plateaus, optimize your training, and achieve results faster. But are you listening?

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we dive into the 6-10 Biofeedback Model, a comprehensive system for interpreting your body’s signals. By combining six foundational metrics with advanced tools tailored to your individual needs, you can create a balanced scorecard for fat loss and avoid the frustration of flying blind. Let’s explore how biofeedback reveals the missing pieces in your fat loss journey.

The 6 Core Metrics You Should Track

Start with these six essential biofeedback markers to build your fat loss dashboard:

1. Stress: High stress disrupts recovery, ramps up cortisol, and stalls fat loss. Monitor your overall stress level on a scale from 1–10.

2. Sleep: Both quantity and quality matter. Poor sleep affects hunger, recovery, and muscle building.

3. Hunger: Use hunger ratings (1 = very hungry, 10 = no hunger) to gauge whether your calorie deficit is too aggressive.

4. Energy: Track daily energy levels to assess recovery and ensure your nutrition supports performance.

5. Recovery: How well are you bouncing back from training? Low recovery might mean overtraining or insufficient nutrition.

6. Digestion: Gut health affects nutrient absorption, inflammation, and overall well-being.

Applying the Balanced Scorecard Framework

Borrowing a tool from engineering, the balanced scorecard organizes biofeedback into four perspectives:

1. Physical Health: Focuses on physiological markers like digestion, hydration, and skin health.

2. Mental and Emotional Well-being: Includes mood, body image perception, and cravings.

3. Recovery and Adaptation: Tracks how well your body handles training stress.

4. Sustainability and Progress: Assesses adherence and how well your plan fits into your real life.

By categorizing biofeedback, you can identify imbalances and take action proactively.

The 10 Advanced Metrics for Faster Progress

For more complex cases or plateaus, consider these advanced tools:

Physical Health

1. Bloating and GI Distress: Identify food intolerances or meal timing issues.

2. Skin Health: Changes in complexion can reveal nutrient deficiencies or inflammation.

3. Hydration: Monitor hydration levels through urine color, thirst patterns, and skin elasticity.

Mental and Emotional Well-being

1. Mood and Mental Clarity: Fluctuations may signal the need for nutrition or training adjustments.

2. Body Image Perception: Track your subjective view of progress to reveal emotional patterns.

3. Cravings: Differentiate between hunger and emotional eating triggers.

Recovery and Adaptation

1. Heart Rate Variability (HRV): Indicates stress and recovery capacity.

2. Libido: A sensitive but telling metric for hormonal health and stress.

3. Menstrual or Hormonal Symptoms: Track cycle regularity and symptoms for better insights.

Sustainability and Progress

1. Lifestyle Flexibility: Rate how well your plan adapts to real-life demands.

Creating Your Fat Loss Dashboard

1. Start Simple: Track the six foundational metrics weekly.

2. Add Advanced Metrics: Introduce advanced tools as needed, based on specific challenges.

3. Look for Trends: Don’t react to single data points. Use patterns over time to guide decisions.

4. Adjust Proactively: Use biofeedback to tweak calorie intake, training, or recovery before hitting a plateau.

Biofeedback = Faster, Smarter Fat Loss

Tracking biofeedback transforms your fat loss journey from guesswork to precision. By listening to your body’s signals and responding appropriately, you’ll avoid burnout, sustain progress, and build the confidence to tackle any challenge.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you track your food, your weight, a few other things, but you still feel stuck with fat loss and you wonder is there something I'm missing? This episode is for you. Most people focus just on the scale or a few other metrics beyond that, but your body is complex. It is constantly sending feedback that could speed up your progress if you know where to look. So today I'm sharing my complete 610 biofeedback system that I use with clients to show you how to learn about those signals that can unlock faster progress, to create sort of a dashboard for fat loss. Most importantly, you'll learn how to stop flying blind and start making Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:57

I'm your host, philip Pabe, and today we're taking your fat loss game to a new level. We're going to harness the power of biofeedback, not just the basic tracking although we will establish that but a complete system used to organize and act on crucial data, especially when you're not quite sure what's going on from that top level surface feedback. Picture a pilot with all of his gauges or her gauges and instruments flying through the sky. I actually have a pilot's license I haven't flown in years, but we were taught to look at multiple instruments. I think there are at least six that we looked at, not just airspeed or altitude, and we're doing this because we want to trust the instruments but also correlate them and ensure a safe, efficient flight and kind of understand okay, if this instrument's broken over here, we can trust these other three to tell us what's going on and your body is similar, right, the scale is one of those many instruments your food, your lifting performance just a couple of those instruments. And when you know how to track and interpret all the other signals, especially the biofeedback during fat loss, that is how you unlock the knowledge of what's going on, the confidence of what's going on with your body, so you can make faster progress, and then that's what allows you to get through the plateaus and have fewer setbacks.

Philip Pape: 2:13

Now, before we get into it, if you want some help implementing what we talk about today and just chat about your situation and what's holding you back and where you want to go, book a free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment with me. It is not a sales call. Anybody you ask and I could give you references knows that all I do is try to help you on the call, give you some clarity, send you on your way with some actions, and it's up to you. If you want to implement or if you want to reach out for more help, that's fine. Or go to our Facebook group or join our Physique University, I don't care. As long as I'm helping you go from this lack of clarity to a little bit more clarity and steps you can take. So if you book that call it's called a rapid nutrition assessment we can identify what metrics from today's episode you should focus on first and then help you create a clear action plan. If that's something you want to do, just click in the show notes to schedule your call, or go to witsandweightscom and click the giant button in the top right. All right, that's enough plugging for today.

Philip Pape: 3:10

Let's get into today's episode and break it down into three segments. First, I want to cover the core six biofeedback metrics that I recommend everybody track, no matter what. All my clients use this in our check-in forms and it's kind of that essential minimum foundational knowledge for fat loss. If you're not even tracking these, that is huge low-hanging fruit for you. Second, I'm gonna introduce the what's called balanced scorecard framework, something I learned in my engineering career and show how it helps you organize your tracking into some different lanes or different perspectives and make the data actionable for you. And then we're going to look at the 10 advanced metrics that can accelerate your progress when you strategically and that means you don't need them all you may not need any of them, but in some cases, individual circumstances call for pulling out the big guns, and that is why I'm putting these all together today six, 10, the six that everyone should track and 10 that you may want to consider for more advanced situations. All right, so let's talk about the six foundational signals that everyone should track during fat loss, and you, as an individual, might track other things beyond this. That's totally cool with you. This is what I want everybody to track as a start.

Philip Pape: 4:31

Number one stress your overall stress level. A scale of one to 10 for pretty much all of these could be helpful. Some of these metrics we talk about will have other ways to measure them or we'll have multiple sub measures that you could potentially use, but not to make it complicated, we're just going to go through each one. So stress high stress is one of the biggest saboteurs of fat loss. It ramps up your cortisol. It makes um fat, you know. It makes you store belly fat. It slows down recovery. There are so many reasons. Stress is the number one thing on this list because high stress is going to prevent fat loss, no matter how hard you cut your calories, how how hard you train, how hard you do anything else. So stress is number one.

Philip Pape: 5:06

Number two is sleep, so almost as if not more important than stress for a lot of people, both the quantity and the quality. And again, for my clients, I ask them to rate on a scale of one to 10, but I talk about both. Are you getting enough sleep? Are you getting enough quality sleep, restful? Some clients will go to a deeper level than that and track their, you know, with an aura ring and track REM and deep sleep and stuff. But just start at the top. How is your sleep in general? Because that impacts your hunger hormones, that impacts your recovery, your cognitive performance, your muscle building, everything All right?

Philip Pape: 5:40

Number three is hunger. So again, you can rate this one to 10, and when you are not in a deficit, hunger should be rated pretty high, as in you're not very hungry. One here is very hungry. A 10 is not hungry at all and you can tell if your deficit is too appropriate or too aggressive. Too appropriate is appropriate or too aggressive based on sometimes based on this alone. If I see a client's hunger trending downward, it's a proactive signal that we're about ready for a refeed, a diet break, or to let off the gas a little bit on the deficit. And it would behoove you to be very aware of that as you move forward, so that you can be successful and modify how you eat, what you eat and the dieting itself, all right.

Philip Pape: 6:27

Number four is energy. Now, energy is kind of a vague term, right, but what I'm referring to here is your energy level throughout the day, especially around workouts. Now, we all have that 3 pm. Well, many of us have that 3 pm crash. Right, it comes from cortisol and you're tired and you're working all day. But we want to distinguish the fluctuations in energy levels from the baseline and try to understand what is causing it to go up and down. Right, low energy signals, maybe too large deficit, not enough carbs, not enough food around your workout, you know, training too hard or too often All of that can be helpful. Too hard or too often, all of that can be helpful.

Philip Pape: 7:07

Number five is recovery. So I look at this as a corollary to energy, but frankly it's a corollary to sleep and stress as well. They're all related right. Hence my pilot metaphor earlier. These are all part of system. So recovery is how well you're bouncing back from training, how much or little soreness you have. I don't want people to be chasing soreness. Once you get into a program and you're consistent with it, you shouldn't have a lot of soreness and you should be able to recover and bounce back to the gym and really go after the next session.

Philip Pape: 7:36

Poor recovery means something with volume, something with nutrition. It could be because of a lack of sleep or too much stress. So again, it's all tied together. It could be because of a lack of sleep or too much stress. So again, it's all tied together. And then the last one here is digestion. Gut health is so crucial for nutrient absorption, for revealing food intolerances, for whether you have enough fiber. Are you eating a diverse variety of foods? There's a lot of things that our gut can tell us, and so when I say digestion, it's at a very high level. Are you bloated? Are you gassy? How are your bowel movements right, things like that. And then you can drill down from any of those. So it's pretty simple.

Philip Pape: 8:14

But a lot of you probably aren't even tracking these at like a weekly level and all you have to do is, on a scale one to 10, track these. That's what I, we want to be able to kind of organize and interpret all this data. Because it's one thing to have the data, that's step one. It's another thing to know what the heck to do with it, right, and what is important versus what is temporary. Let's say, for example, if you've got all your family over this week and your whole routine has changed and your whole food situation is different, it's going to affect all of your biofeedback measures, and yet it all may be irrelevant because the context, the environment, has changed for that brief moment. But if something becomes more chronic, that is more of an indicator. Similarly, something might decline, like hunger, might get worse during a dieting phase, and yet it's perfectly normal, or it's a trade-off that you're willing to make, right. Or if I'm your coach and I see hunger goes from no hunger at all 10, to a seven and it stays there, I'm not that worried, right. But if you start getting into six and five and four territory, okay, then we have to have the conversation of what needs to change.

Philip Pape: 9:26

So the engineering framework I'm going to bring into this today is called the balanced scorecard, and it's just a way to track performance across multiple dimensions. In the aerospace world we had something called the control tower, right, funny? You know fancy names, silly names for these things. Just imagine pillars or columns. If you're a spreadsheet person, you could just imagine these as being different columns of things that you measure and then the rows are the specific metrics. Okay, that's all I'm going to talk about spreadsheets today, I promise.

Philip Pape: 9:57

So why don't we apply this ourselves to fat loss? And we can use four scores or four perspectives, four pillars, let's say. The first pillar is your physical health. These are your direct physiological markers. The second is your mental and emotional well-being, that's, your psychological state, because that is very telling. The third is your recovery and adaptation. This is how well your body handles the stress. It's a little different from the physical or the physiological. And then the fourth one is your sustainability and your progress. These are factors that affect your adherence, which so many programs and people and podcasters neglect when they talk about things like weight loss is adherence. So if we have a framework like that. We can not just focus on one thing and get obsessed with it and neglect others. We think of it as a system and we can organize our thoughts.

Philip Pape: 10:52

So guess what I'm gonna do for you? I'm gonna share with you the 10 advanced metrics that I thought about as the ones that I most likely go to with clients beyond those six that you would find helpful. There could be 20 beyond this that I might reach to in advanced situations, but I think these 10 are very important and I'm going to break them down by the four pillars that we just talked about. So let's start with physical, and I'm going to give you three advanced metrics here. The first one is bloating and GI distress, and this is distinct from the digestion that we talked about earlier. This is actually a more advanced tracking of your meal timing, the combinations of food that you eat, and then the stress responses, all of which trigger discomfort. So you're really creating a correlational tracking mechanism to track, potentially, food intolerances and food combinations and whatnot.

Philip Pape: 11:50

And I've had clients who have advanced conditions where they can't handle certain types of foods. They need low FODMAP diets, low histamine diets, something like that, but rather than just restrict everything or go through a random elimination diet. We can actually go the other direction, so to speak, and actually start tracking what happens with your response as you eat what you eat, to really dial in on what might be causing the discomfort. So that can be helpful. I know it sounds kind of vague, but it is an advanced metric to identify hidden intolerances, to optimize your meal composition, your balance, for whatever the issue is for you. It might be nutrient absorption, right. It might be your gut health, it might be an intolerance or a condition that you have, so bloating and GI distress. Tracked against timing, food combinations and stress responses that trigger them. All right.

Philip Pape: 12:43

The second one, under physical, is your skin health. If your skin complexion changes or you have acne patterns or skin dryness, these can and they come out of nowhere. These can reveal some sort of systemic inflammation, autoimmune conditions, nutrient deficiencies, hormonal shifts, something like that. And oftentimes people will go to a band-aid for that, like I'm just going to have collagen protein or something. But we really want to understand when something changes with our body that there could be something going on. But we really want to understand when something changes with our body that there could be something going on.

Philip Pape: 13:15

And the third advanced metric here is hydration, not just the you know yes, you should drink sufficient water and monitor your intake but also look at signs like the color of your urine, your thirst patterns, your skin elasticity, and so that's why I bring this up along with skin health back to back, because your skin can also tell you a bit about your hydration. And, of course, hydration impacts your other top level biometrics hunger, energy recovery. So if we're having an issue there and all the other things are checked off, I'm going to look at hydration. And hydration can sometimes be more complicated than just the amount of water you eat. It could be what you drink. It could be what you're eating, your source of electrolytes when you're eating and drinking this stuff. Some people they might drink, quote unquote enough, but they do it all at one time of the day. There's a lot that goes on there.

Philip Pape: 14:02

So bloating, ngi, distress, skin health and hydration are three advanced metrics you could consider for physical, for mental and emotional. The first one here is a big one and some coaches I know have this as a top line metric. I actually have it as a slightly more advanced metric because and let me just tell you what it is it's mood and mental clarity, and I think a lot of times my clients will talk about this anyway as part of their wins, their challenges, their roadblocks, their energy, their recovery, and there's no need to ask yet. Another separate question about mood is what I used to have it in there and I actually got rid of it because of that reason. It was kind of redundant. But for some clients and for some of you listening, tracking things like your level of focus, your alertness, your emotional stability throughout the day you know that are that aren't correlated with things like a menstrual cycle or any other condition. Sudden mood changes, brain fog can signal that your nutrition plan is affecting what's going on, or your training or what have you before things stall and you can do something about it. And then the next two you're going to understand why these are all part of mental and emotional and some of these can be interrelated.

Philip Pape: 15:11

The next one, which is the fifth advanced metric, is body image perception. Uh, yeah, you can track that. You're. It's. It's your subjective view of progress, like how your clothes fit and how you look in the mirror and your progress photos and all of that how you feel about your body. You can track that. Now be careful, right this if, if you have, um, an existing issue with body dysmorphia or some unhealthy emotional patterns around body image, that's outside my scope of practice. I'm strictly talking about a self-rated perception to kind of get awareness on that and reveal whether that's tied to your patterns, like your eating patterns, and that's really all I'm going to say about that, to be honest. But it is something worth tracking.

Philip Pape: 15:54

And then the next one, under mental and emotional, is your cravings. Now, this is important because I just had a back and forth with a client the other day and we were talking about hunger and she kept saying, well, it's not hunger, it's not hunger, it's cravings. And I said, okay, I get what you're saying. There is a distinction there, absolutely Thank. Thank you for clarifying the language we want to use, because hunger, desire for something that's not necessarily food, that could be a craving, even though it could be food, so intense desires for foods or tastes for example, salty, sweet but also a desire for something to reduce the stress that you have, right, whatever the trigger might be. And this can indicate an emotional need that needs attention. It could also indicate the need for a strategy, a simple strategy in place, some level of tracking or pattern, interrupt or changing up your environment or having a food swap. I mean, there are a lot of different strategies for this. It's a whole separate topic, and I think I might even do a upcoming episode that goes through my hunger scale and diary to dive into the difference between physical and psychological hunger, which falls in this category. And then we get to the third pillar here, which is recovery and adaptation, and I have three here as well. So this brings us to overall number seven of the ten heart rate variability, hrv.

Philip Pape: 17:14

For those of you who wear a watch or a ring, you can measure your HRV, which is effectively a measure of your nervous system's recovery state. Low HRV can sometimes predict that you're going to have stress from overtraining before the performance actually drops, and so what it could tell you? And it's funny because your ring might actually say, hey, we noticed your HRV is low, you may not be in a great state to train Now. I take those with a big grain of salt, because the last thing I want you to do is you feel great, you've got energy, you're good to go, and your ring says, man, maybe you shouldn't train today, and then you don't train. That's the last thing I want to do it's more of correlating this with the other indicators of potential overtraining or excessive stress. And if you know, you've just been pounded into the wall by life stress, by chronic stress. It's good to be aware of that proactively, to see if you need to modify your training in some way to accommodate that, not necessarily skipping your training session, but modifying it in some way. And that's where a good coach can really help you figure out what that might look like.

Philip Pape: 18:20

Number eight, which is the second one in recovery and adaptation, is your libido, your sex drive, your sex function. And again, I used to have this as one of my main metrics, but it's very situational. Let's just say it's a sensitive topic, right, and sexual drive and function are an indicator of hormonal health, right? Testosterone, for example. And your stress load too. If you have too much stress or you're excessively dieting, you're getting burned out. That's going to affect your libido and it's tied to other things like energy recovery and so on. So it's a good thing for some of you to track. Many of you don't even have to. You know, uh, you know it kind of intuitively, but you can do it objectively.

Philip Pape: 19:00

And then number nine, which is the last one under recovery and adaptation here is your menstrual or hormonal symptoms. So this is men and women. For women, it's your cycle, you know, tracking uh, how regular it is and what symptoms do you have associated with it, either on a regular basis, like as your baseline, which can be helpful for you, or if you're working with a coach, to understand if any modifications have to be made or deviations to that, which is also really important. And then for all clients, for men as well, just monitoring any symptoms that are important to you that would suggest an imbalance with your hormones, understanding that during fat loss you're going to have a down regulation in all your hormones anyway. So again, you have to take it as part of the system. And then the last category here, and also the last metric. The last category is sustainability and progress.

Philip Pape: 19:49

And so the metric that I want you to track is lifestyle flexibility, how well your plan adapts to your real life. Now, I don't actually track this as a number with clients. I don't have clients tell me oh, I was an eight this week on lifestyle flexibility. We can tease that out from the other metrics and their reporting of how their week went and how we discussed their check-in. But when you do this yourself, why don't you create a separate metric on its own that scores you for that week and says based on following my plan, this is how easy or difficult it was to stick to the plan, given my life right Social events, dining out without anxiety, travel schedule disruptions, family meals, celebrations, work, stress, deadlines. And what's interesting about this is it's kind of flipping it around, isn't it? It's saying, okay, I have my plan, I believe it's the best plan for me, but this week it was like a three because life happened.

Philip Pape: 20:47

If your plan was a lot more flexible than when life happens, the plan may be rated higher than that, and so when you get a three or a four and if you get periodic or repeated versions of that low score, it tells you your plan is simply not flexible enough for you. Instead of trying to fit your life to your plan, try to fit your plan to your life. So that is the last metric. And what's super fascinating about all of this and again, I hope you don't feel overwhelmed like you have to use all 16 of these metrics. Use the first six to start and then get inspired by the other 10 and you may have your own that you want to use, but the goal is to reveal a solution to a plateau before you hit the plateau, like when my clients, when their hunger or cravings are increasing, or their recovery is increasing, or their recovery is declining or their energy is low and by low I just mean like one or two ticks lower than last time. It gives me a clue.

Philip Pape: 21:44

Now we might not have to change things, but there's a good chance. I'm going to say you know what, let's ease off on the calories or let's take a refeed or let's take a diet break. And oftentimes what happens is my clients tell me before I tell them, because they check in and they say you know what, based on having you know, you made me score this stuff and I noticed that all these numbers have ticked down. I didn't quite realize that that was the case. Maybe it's time for a little bit of a break. And then you come back stronger and you continue losing the fat while others crash into a wall and kind of beat their head into the wall over and over. And that's the power of having multiple data points that describe your overall body, your system, organized in a way that shows you how they connect. You're proactive instead of reactive with your fat loss All right.

Philip Pape: 22:28

So when we talk about physique engineering, that is what we mean Not guesswork, but being data driven. Not hoping what you're doing works, having concrete, specific data showing you what's working and what needs to adjust. If you're like that's too hard, well, you're just not going to get the result you want. There's a little bit of effort involved. You could also reach out for support. You could join a community like our free Facebook group. You can reach out for coaching. You can join our physique university, which is a more budget friendly group version of coaching for a lot of you who may not be able to afford or want to work with a one-on-one coach.

Philip Pape: 23:03

And the first place to start is just reach out for a 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment, because that is a call. That is not a sales pitch. Or we're just going to get on the phone. We're going to talk about the weather, and then we're going to dive in too, because that's what you always start with, right, and then we're going to dive into hey, which metrics or what data or what form of tracking or what kind of nutrition or training approach might you be missing? That will help you make progress. A simple, I'll say, two or three step action plan. That's it. I want you to click the link in the show notes to schedule that, or go to witsandweightscom and click the link in the top right and we'll have that call and you'll get some clarity. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your body is always giving you feedback. The key is knowing how to listen and respond. All right, I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

How to Eat Thousands of Calories to Gain Muscle and Weight (Not Just for Hardgainers) | Ep 269

Download my free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint for the exact steps to structure your diet, calorie surplus, macros, and more to gain muscle at the optimal rate while minimizing fat gain or go to witsandweights.com/muscle.

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Do you struggle to eat enough calories to support muscle growth? Have you tried "just eating more," only to feel sick or frustrated when the scale won’t budge? What if eating more calories could actually be enjoyable—even with dietary restrictions?

Philip (@witsandweights) shares 12 proven strategies to help you break through plateaus and gain weight effectively. Inspired by listener Jim from Michigan, who tackles weight gain challenges while playing hockey in his 70s, Philip dives deep into strategies that fit any lifestyle.

Whether you’re a “hard gainer,” have specific dietary restrictions, or simply want to build muscle sustainably, these tips will transform how you approach nutrition. With practical advice like adding calorie-dense foods, leveraging liquid calories, and making your meals more appealing, you will be empowered to fuel your body for growth without the misery of force-feeding.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:34 Strategy #1: Adding calorie-dense food to your meals
5:08 Strategy #2: Incorporate liquid calories
6:17 Strategy #3: Enhancing meals with smart calorie boosts
6:50 Strategy #4: Focusing on the foods you enjoy
8:06 Strategy #5: Increase your meal frequency
9:15 Strategy #6: Don't drink water before your meals
9:52 Strategy #7: Embrace calorie timing
11:22 Strategy #8: Make your food visually and socially more appealing
13:28 Strategy #9: Have high-calorie snacks always available
14:26 Strategy #10: Sneak calories into drinks
15:43 Strategy #11: Plan your meals around fats
17:40 Strategy #12: Track and adjust by keeping it simple but systematic
19:43 Managing stress and recovery to improve appetite
22:59 Outro

Episode resources:

• Gain weight episode: The Most UNDERRATED Fat Loss Secret Making You FATTER (and Sabotaging Muscle Gain Too)

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS
  

How to Eat Thousands of Calories to Gain Muscle and Weight (Not Just for Hardgainers)

If you’ve ever struggled to gain weight and muscle, you know the frustration of eating until you feel stuffed, only to see the scale refuse to budge. It’s even more challenging if you have a small appetite or dietary restrictions. Fortunately, there are practical strategies to help you eat more calories and enjoy the process without feeling miserable.

Whether you’re a hardgainer trying to pack on mass or simply someone looking to support your muscle-building goals, these 12 strategies will make a big difference. Let’s dive in.

12 Strategies to Eat More Calories Without Feeling Miserable

1. Add Calorie-Dense Foods
   Focus on foods that pack a lot of calories into small portions, such as avocados, nuts, seeds, and oils. These can be easily added to meals to increase calorie intake without increasing meal volume significantly.

2. Incorporate Liquid Calories
   Liquids don’t fill you up as much as solid food, making them a great way to sneak in calories. Think shakes, smoothies, or whole milk-based drinks with added protein powder, nut butter, or fruit.

3. Enhance Existing Meals
   Boost your current meals by adding calorie-dense ingredients like butter, cheese, or coconut milk. For example, cook eggs in butter or mix nuts into your oatmeal.

4. Eat Foods You Enjoy
   Choose foods you genuinely like to make the eating process enjoyable. You’ll naturally eat more when you enjoy your meals, which makes hitting your calorie goals easier.

5. Increase Meal Frequency
   If eating large meals feels overwhelming, try eating smaller meals more frequently. Instead of three large meals, aim for five to six smaller ones throughout the day.

6. Avoid Drinking Water Before Meals
   Water can fill your stomach and suppress your appetite. To maximize your ability to eat more, save your water intake for after your meals.

7. Capitalize on Hunger Windows
   Eat larger meals during times of the day when you’re naturally hungrier, such as breakfast, post-workout, or before bed. Use these windows to load up on calories.

8. Make Food Visually and Socially Appealing
   We’re wired to eat more when food looks good or is enjoyed with others. Plate your meals attractively and enjoy them in a relaxed, social setting to increase your intake.

9. Have High-Calorie Snacks Available
   Keep easy-to-grab, calorie-dense snacks on hand, such as trail mix, protein bars, or nut butter packets. These can help you stay on track when you’re busy.

10. Sneak Calories Into Drinks
    Add calorie-dense ingredients to beverages you already drink, such as whole milk or heavy cream in coffee or tea. This is an effortless way to increase your intake.

11. Plan Meals Around Fats
    Fats are the most calorie-dense macronutrient, with 9 calories per gram. Build meals around fatty foods like salmon, avocado, or nut butters to easily add calories.

12. Track and Adjust
    Use a food tracking app to monitor your calorie intake and make gradual adjustments. Start with a slight surplus and increase incrementally to avoid feeling overwhelmed.

The Secret Ingredient: Stress Management

It’s important to remember that stress and poor recovery can suppress your appetite and digestion, making it harder to eat enough. Prioritize relaxation, quality sleep, and manageable training to keep your body in an optimal state for eating and recovery.

Ready to Build Muscle?

If you’re serious about gaining muscle, download my free Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint, which gives you the exact steps for setting up a successful muscle-building phase, including calorie targets, macros, and tracking tips. Head to witsandweights.com/muscle to get started today.

Eating more doesn’t have to be a chore. By using these strategies, you can fuel your muscle-building journey in a sustainable and enjoyable way!

Send questions to @witsandweights

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free for evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Leave a 5-star review if you love the podcast!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Have you ever felt frustrated trying to gain weight and muscle where, no matter how much you think you're eating, the scale just won't budge? Maybe you've been told just eat more, but you feel stuffed and sick every time you try. Or maybe you're dealing with certain dietary restrictions that seem to make everything harder. Today, I'm giving you 12 specific strategies that make eating more calories not just doable, but actually enjoyable. You'll learn exactly how to break through your plateau without force-feeding yourself or feeling miserable. These are proven methods that work, whether you're 20 or 70, whether you have dietary restrictions or not. So if you've struggled to gain weight and build muscle, stick around. You're about to learn exactly how to make it happen. You're about to learn exactly how to make it happen.

Philip Pape: 0:52

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're tackling a challenge that doesn't often get enough attention how to actually eat enough calories to support muscle growth. I want to give a special shout out to Jim from Wayne, michigan, who inspired today's episode. He sent in a text message and he wrote hey, philip, I've been listening to your Wits and Weights podcast for about six months. It's great. I realized that the majority of people want to lose weight. I've been skinny my entire life 5'9", 140 pounds. I'm still active. I play in an over 70 ice hockey league once a week. I was diagnosed with celiac disease 20 years ago. Not fun, but it could be worse. I know I need to be in a calorie surplus, but I usually struggle to eat 2,000 calories a day. Could you please do a full-length podcast on how to gain weight and muscle? So thank you, jim. This is exactly the kind of specific problem or challenge that I want to hear from you as listeners about, so I can deep dive into it. On the show, and while we recently covered some fundamentals of gaining weight to improve your body composition, that was episode 257 at the end of 2024. I'm going to link that in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 2:06

Today we're going to focus specifically on 12 strategies to get the calories in, just to be able to eat them all when you struggle with appetite or dietary restrictions. By the way, this could apply to anyone at any calorie level, not just hard gainers, even if you're, say, a woman who's trying to get back to maintenance for the first time and you feel like it's too many calories, these strategies can still apply. So before we get into it, though, you might be wondering okay, that's great, but why do I even want the calories in the first place? How do I build muscle? What is the strategy there? For that, I'm going to ask you to download a free guide that I have called Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint, and that's going to give you the exact steps for doing that, for setting up your muscle building phase, from the optimal surplus and rate of gain to the macros, to what to track and even a specific example of a real bulk. So click the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash muscle to download that free guide, and that'll set up your muscle building phase for success. And then, when you're running that, you'll say okay, now let me listen to this episode to understand how to get all that food in, because it's not working for me quite yet.

Philip Pape: 3:15

All right, so I'm going to break down these 12 strategies into three sections. First, we're going to cover four strategies to add calories without feeling stuffed. We're going to cover four strategies to add calories without feeling stuffed, then four strategies for the timing and habits that could make eating easier. And then, finally, four strategies to implement it sustainably. So let's start with adding calories without feeling stuffed. Strategy number one is pretty straightforward, and that is adding calorie-d dense foods to your meals. This is about making every bite count, focusing on foods that pack in as many calories as possible into as little volume as possible, which you'll find that a lot of these strategies are the opposite of what you would do during fat loss. So keep that in mind in case it sparks some curiosity there. So I'll give you some example Add avocado to things, if you like avocado.

Philip Pape: 4:04

They're very calorie dense and we're talking mostly whole foods here. By the way, doing it with whole foods. Obviously, you can add in processed foods and we're going to touch on that occasionally here but there are calorie dense whole foods. So avocado, egg sandwiches. You can drizzle olive oil over just about anything, but I'm thinking vegetables or rice. You know, when you're making rice, add olive oil in there, or a tablespoon of olive oil is 120 calories. You can add butter when cooking, which makes it taste great anyway, like even better. I love putting butter on steak. When I'm cast iron, I'm frying it in a cast iron skillet and then I finish it off in the oven.

Philip Pape: 4:40

Always keep in mind saturated fat intake, of course, but again, we're trying to get more calories here. And then nuts and seeds, incorporating them into everything. You can put them in salads, you can put them as a side, you can eat them straight up. And remember that fat, as a macro, has more than twice as much calorie density as protein and carbs. It has nine calories per gram instead of just four for the others. So take advantage of that macro.

Philip Pape: 5:06

So that's number one is calorie dense foods. Strategy number two is to incorporate liquid calories. All right, liquids just don't fill you up like solid food. There's a reason for that they are effectively pre-digested. You think that's gross. I'm sorry, but that's. You know, when we're having liquid, anything that would normally be a food, you're taking a step out of the process and so you're able to eat more of it. So we're thinking shake, smoothies, whatever, and honestly I'm not going to be giving you a million recipes here but a base of some beverage like whole milk has a lot of calories.

Philip Pape: 5:39

I love whole milk, just in general. When you're trying to gain weight, it goes down easy. And then there's brands like Fairlife that have higher protein and Fairlife chocolate milk that has even more calories. So whole milk, a banana, some peanut butter. So that's our calorie density right there. A couple tablespoons of peanut butter. So let's see 150 calories for the milk, 100 calories for the banana, 200 calories for the peanut butter, and then whey protein. Even a scoop of whey protein is 120. So that's over 500 calories that you can drink in just minutes. And if you have dietary restrictions, like Jim's celiac disease, just make sure it's gluten-free, okay.

Philip Pape: 6:16

Strategy number three is adding extra calories to existing meals by just enhancing what you already eat with some smart swaps. So like cooking eggs right in a slab of butter instead of using a spray just to make sure you add those calories. Adding an extra slice of cheese to your sandwich, mixing nuts into your oatmeal, using coconut milk in whether it's a curry or a soup, something like that. So that's a very simple one of just like seeing how you can add calories that are almost unnoticeable and don't really fill you up in any way to existing meals. So strategy number four is to focus on foods you enjoy. Now, this might seem obvious, but it's one of the top factors of a sustainable diet.

Philip Pape: 7:02

No matter what you're doing fat loss or gaining You're going to eat more consistently when you actually like your food period. So it's one of the tenets Don't be guilty with what you eat. Make sure food satisfies you, make sure it meets your goals and make sure you enjoy it. So you don't want to force feed yourself bland chicken and rice if you hate it. I don't care if you're in fat loss or gaining right.

Philip Pape: 7:24

Force feeding of any kind is not going to be good and I hear oftentimes people say how do I get more calories? Or I feel like I have to force feed myself, or calories, or I feel like I have to force feed myself, or I need to force feed myself to get the calories. What do I do? And it's like no, you don't need to force feed yourself. Let's listen to this episode, all right. So that was it for strategy number four, just focusing on foods you enjoy, because that, mentally, is going to cause you to be able to eat more. Just a simple one there, in case you're trying to force feed anything. Now I want to move on to the second group of four, which is related to timing and habits. So strategy number five. And so, not to confuse you, but I'm keeping the numbering from one to 12, but I separate into four groups of or three groups of four.

Philip Pape: 8:05

Strategy number five is to increase your meal frequency. Just as simple as that. But again, a lot of people are not doing that. People get in a rut and the way you eat is just the way you've always eaten and it's based on your work schedule or how you pack your lunch or whatever. But you've got to be creative and say okay, instead of three huge meals, I'm going to have five meals. I'm going to have three modest meals and two small snacks, right, or six or even seven. I mean, you'd be surprised how many you could fit in if you're creative about it. And a lot of people are stuck in this, like intermittent fasting mindset or feeding window mindset, or not eat too early, too late. It's super flexible. It's super flexible. So meal frequency itself can be effective for you because you won't get too full on any one meal and, again, you won't feel like you're force feeding yourself. So if you're only eating three times a day and you're trying to gain weight, you're going to have to eat at least four or five, just almost across the board, no matter who you are. I'm still in my gaining phase now. I definitely eat six times a day, maybe seven, and it just makes it so much easier because then each feeding is reasonable in size, it goes easy on your stomach, it digests well, you feel great throughout the day, and so on. All right.

Philip Pape: 9:20

Strategy number six is don't drink water before your meals. Now, some people would advocate for this strategy in general for a number of reasons I'm not going to go into. But it's a good one here, because most people don't think about this. They just drink when they drink. Water fills your stomach. It reduces appetite. Drinking water before your meals could be a great technique when you're in fat loss, but to try to get in the calories it's going to be very tough. So just start with the food and then fill it in with the liquid, unless you're just having a liquid meal, like we talked about earlier. So don't drink water before meals is strategy number six.

Philip Pape: 9:52

Strategy number seven is to embrace calorie timing by taking advantage of your body's natural hunger windows. So what I mean by this is you're going to be hungry, even in a gaining phase, at certain times. You know when that is, and for a lot of people that is first thing in the morning. So don't skip breakfast, pre and post workout right Now you may not be that hungry before your workout, but you should be have some hunger after your workout. Take advantage of that to really gobble up the fuel. And then before bed, and you're like, well, that's shocking. Before bed, I don't mean like eat at 9pm and then go to bed at 10pm, I mean, like you know, 6 or 7pm, like as late as you can push it where it doesn't affect your digestion or your sleep, and it may be a smaller feeding, it may be an extra kind of dessert slot or a pre-bed meal, that's like two hours before bed. That's smaller, right. Think like Greek yogurt with berries, that kind of level. Or I like a casein pudding with almond milk protein, where it's kind of light but it's still got a decent amount of protein in there and some calories, maybe a couple hundred, 300 calories to finish up your day. And it goes well with the frequency thing, right, I mentioned eating more frequently, because then you might have, okay, first thing in the morning, pre-workout, post-workout, lunch, afternoon snack, dinner and then pre-bed, and that's like seven feedings right there, and that's on a training day. Maybe on a rest day you have one fewer feeding and then you have to just be aware of the fact that you need more calories per feeding. All right.

Philip Pape: 11:22

Strategy number eight is to make your food more appealing visually and socially. I would say we naturally eat more when food looks good, right. Why do you think we love going to restaurants and having somebody else make these nice plates of food? It comes out heck, even going to like a greasy diner, and it comes out. You're like oh, this looks delicious because you didn't make it right. Or when you eat off of somebody else's plate, somehow it tastes better.

Philip Pape: 11:49

We went to Montreal years ago and I was amazed at the delicious food there. But not just that, it's how they plated everything. I was like everybody is a chef, is a culinary gourmand over here. We would just go to a diner for breakfast and the fruit was like cut up into, was sculpted into fancy shapes. Everywhere we went was like this. It was like an expectation and we wanted to eat it. Let's just put it that way.

Philip Pape: 12:15

So when food looks appetizing, when we're eating with other people, when we're relaxed, when we're not rushing and even sometimes when we're distracted, which normally is a big no-no because we want to eat mindfully. But when we're talking about a positive distraction, I'll say, like eating with our family at the dinner table. We can potentially eat more that way. So how you take advantage of that is obviously, besides going to restaurants when you're at home is the food just looking good, being food that you enjoy, being a good, interesting combination, fun recipes and eating with other people, and making sure to kind of load up on the food when you're doing that, because that's kind of tricking yourself to eat more without realizing it. If you will, it's just very interesting. And even being relaxed and not rushing and being mindful, sometimes you can actually eat more naturally because of the lower stress. It kind of depends on the person. So make food visually and socially appealing is the overall tip there. So make food visually and socially appealing is the overall tip there.

Philip Pape: 13:16

All right, let's go to the final segment here, which is really about, I'll say, implementation and sustainability. So these are some more day-to-day practices that you can have. So strategy number nine here is to have high-calorie snacks always available, like to pre-prep to meal prep. High calorie snacks, simple right. Always have ready to eat calorie dense foods available trail mix, protein bars, nut butter packets, pre-made sandwiches there's so many things and, yeah, I'm okay with protein bars. You don't want to be eating five a day, but look for those opportunities. Trail mix is a great one, because then you can get like nuts, dried fruit, even throw in some M&Ms in there the kids' version of trail mix. Again, we're trying to gain weight here, so we've got this flexibility. Think about that and pre-make your snacks, just like in a fat loss phase, where I recommend that you pre-make high-protein, low-calorie, like lower-fat snacks. Same idea here Just prepare higher-calorie snacks for yourself and easy things to grab and pack and go on a hike with or throw in the car or whatever. All right, that brings us to. We got three strategies left.

Philip Pape: 14:28

Strategy number 10 is to sneak calories into drinks. So we talked about sneaking calories into food earlier. This is really when you have a drink that you're already having, like coffee, have it with whole milk. Now, if you like your coffee black, and that's just how you drink your coffee. But a lot of us put cream or something in there. Put the most calorie dense thing in there. Now, right, put whole milk or heavy cream. Put heavy cream in there there, actually, almost. I don't want you to go bulletproof coffee because I don't like that huge amount of MCT oil in there. But that's a high calorie beverage. You know. Protein shakes made with whole milk instead of water or almond milk, having juice juice is okay occasionally, right Between your meals, you know, combining this with the liquid thing that we mentioned earlier. So just sneaking calories into everyday drinks that you already drink. Now I wouldn't want to go to like regular soda, for example. I'm not going to go that far. It's more of, I'll say, whole food type additions to what you already drink. Actually, tea works for that as well. My wife loves having milk with tea, kind of British style. I actually joke with her. I'm like, oh, are you having some tea with your milk? And she knows that and it tastes great. I get it All right.

Philip Pape: 15:43

Strategy number 11 is to plan your meals around fats.

Philip Pape: 15:49

Because fats are the most calorie dense, I want you to build meals around them.

Philip Pape: 15:54

So salmon with butter sauce, pasta with cream-based sauce, nut-crusted chicken or fish Meaning. What I mean by that is, unlike the earlier tip of just like adding fat, this is making sure that you pick meals and recipes that are fat-centric, that are fatty, that are rich. You're like oh, that's what I'm hearing on this podcast is very interesting, right, because it kind of flies in the face of sometimes what you think about with nutrition advice, but it's about your goals, it's about your context. We're trying to get more food in here, so enjoy the rich foods you know. Eat like the French, let's say right, whole eggs are great during this time. So think about fat centric meals as opposed to the protein and carbs, because you're probably going to get enough protein anyway if you're already there when you're not gaining. And then the fats are where the calories come, and then the carbs are everything else. Your carbs shouldn't be low, unless you're deliberately on a low-carb diet. But people forget about the value of fats for increasing calories.

Shonnetta: 16:55

Hi, my name is Sharnetta and I want to give a big shout out to Philip of Wits and Weights. I discovered his podcast just a few short months ago, but I quickly realized how valuable his content is. With all the many fitness and nutrition influencers out in the world today, I often suffer from information overload, but Philip poses careful questions to his guests that get to the meat of the subject matter, while most everyone offers free guides to this, and that what I found most unique about Philip is his live training and weekly Q&A sessions. If I can't make it live, I can always catch the replay. I am very grateful to find someone I feel is so passionate and genuine to his purpose, while also being hands-on within the Wits and Weights online community. He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do.

Philip Pape: 17:40

And then the last strategy is to track and adjust by keeping it simple but systematic. I want you to think of progressive overload for your calories. Okay, first you have to understand your baseline. How many calories do you actually need? Hopefully, you're tracking and you know what your surplus is and you know what your maintenance calories are. So you know that you're burning, say, 2,600 calories and you're in a 300 calorie surplus. You're going to eat 2,900 calories and you feel stuffed when you eat even just a little bit above your maintenance. Well, aim for not quite the full amount on week one, right? Aim for 2,700 and then 2,800, then 2,900, right? Very simple thing. I do this with clients all the time. I give them a very achievable goal for the next couple of weeks before their next check-in so that we're not feeling like we're overreaching and feeling like we failed just because we didn't miss it. Focus on one meal at a time, right, and one day at a time and a really good way to do this is if you're using a food logging app like Macrofactor is to take what you normally eat and then, for tomorrow, pre-plan and pre-log one change to a meal or one additional snack or meal per one of the strategies we talked about today. So don't change everything all at once, just tweak and add, tweak and add and it might be adding more fat, it might be adding an extra feeding, might be adding a shake in there, whatever makes sense, so that you're not obsessing or worrying too much about doing all of this. And then you're gonna adjust based on how well you feel. This is where biofeedback can come into play, like your hunger signals, and it's the opposite of during fat loss. So our goal here is not to feel like we're force feeding, like we're stuffed. So anyway, that's really putting it all together. The way I categorize these in the three groups may be a little bit arbitrary, but I wanted to keep it organized for you as you go through this and then you could use the timestamps to find each strategy. We'll just list the strategies right there in the show notes for you to make it easy so you can dive in.

Philip Pape: 19:40

Now. The one thing that you might be missing that has nothing to do with food and I wanted to address it and it could be the best way to increase your intake is managing your stress and recovery, just like during fat loss, when you're in a gaining phase but you are chronically stressed or you're under-recovered, right, that might be due to a lack of sleep, maybe overtraining, although that's not usually the issue. Your body actively suppresses your appetite and digestion. Now I've told you many times the opposite, that it can cause you to have a higher appetite and actually over-consume. But remember, we're in the opposite. We're in the opposite world here, the mirror world, alternate reality of gaining, where everything kind of flips on its head and when you're really stressed you may actually have trouble eating and your digestion might be off your gut health, things like that. And so sometimes, if you can barely eat 2000 calories and then you go on vacation and you relax, you're like I had no problem putting away 3000 plus calories a day without thinking about it. Why is that? It's because you're relaxed, you're not stressed. So it kind of goes both ways and I want you to keep that in mind, which is great because it means we should always be striving to manage our stress and recovery that way. It's not like we have to change the principle during a gaining phase.

Philip Pape: 20:55

So I want to just recap the 12 strategies for you just to reinforce in your mind real quick. I'm just going to list them. Number one calorie-dense foods. Simple, very high-level strategy. Number two liquid calories. Number three enhance your existing meals. Tweak them.

Philip Pape: 21:13

Number four make sure you're eating things you enjoy. Number five add more meals or feedings. Increase your meal frequency. Number six don't drink water before meals. Number seven use the eating windows that you are already hungry with, like first in the morning, after your workout, before bed, you know, afternoon whatever Take advantage of those to add in the calories. Number eight make sure it's visually and socially appealing when you're eating. Number nine pre-plan or pre-prepare calorie-dense snacks, like think the trail mix, for example. Number 10 is to tweak your everyday drink that you already drink, like your coffee or tea, and add in some calorie-dense liquid to that, like heavy cream. Number 11 is to prioritize fatty foods in general. Just think of rich, creamy, fatty, nutty cheese, all those things. Prioritize those. And then the last one is to track and adjust systematically and use a form of progressive overload to kind of ease into this and work your way up.

Philip Pape: 22:15

Now do you remember Jim's question about struggling with celiac disease? Notice how all these strategies they work with any dietary restriction. It's about the principles, right? Not the specific foods. I gave you some examples, but we're not about specific foods here, so you can, no matter what you're dealing with. You can apply these principles All right. If you want to put all these strategies into action in a gaining phase, remember I have a free muscle building nutrition blueprint that builds on everything we covered today in terms of the setup, like what are the calories and macros, what is the surplus, what should I be tracking, what is the biofeedback, what are the measurements, and then an example of a real bulk. To get your copy, click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash muscle to download that right now. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, building muscle isn't just about lifting heavy, it's about fueling heavy too. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Dynamic Resistance Using Tonal vs. Free Weights for Muscle Gain (Troy Taylor) | Ep 268

Download my free Progressive Overload Guide to learn how to gain muscle, strength, and performance like never before.

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How can dynamic resistance change the way you build muscle? Are free weights holding you back in certain lifts? Could technology offer a safer and more efficient way to train without compromising results?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives deep into the science of strength training with Troy Taylor, Senior Director of Performance Innovation at Tonal. Troy shares his expertise from analyzing data on over 200 billion pounds lifted, offering a fascinating perspective on how dynamic resistance, like that provided by Tonal, compares to traditional free weights for muscle activation, hypertrophy, and strength development.

Explore how technology can enhance your training with real-time resistance adjustments, eccentric overload, and accommodating resistance—all while ensuring safety and efficiency. Whether you’re a seasoned lifter or starting, this will expand your understanding of resistance training science and innovation.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:21 How Tonal differs from free weights
7:12 Tonal features: Spotters, eccentric loading, and tracking
13:28 Who benefits most from Tonal’s capabilities
16:43 Strength training data analysis and trends
23:32 Why older adults can see faster strength improvements
25:28 Morning workouts and their impact on consistency
27:23 Tracking gains and hypertrophy progress
31:59 Program customization and progressive overload
34:56 Customized weight training, fatigue, and recovery needs
41:42 Leveraging lengthened partials and eccentric overload
47:22 Tonal’s new Training Lab launch in NYC
49:04 Outro

Episode resources:

• Instagram: @strengthsciencetroy

• Website: tonal.com

• Training Lab: tonaltraininglab.com

• Facebook: @TonalStrong 

• Youtube: @TonalStrong 
  

Dynamic Resistance with Tonal vs. Free Weights for Muscle Gain

In this episode of Wits & Weights, we explore how dynamic resistance stacks up against traditional free weights for building strength and muscle. My guest, Troy Taylor, Senior Director of Performance Innovation at Tonal, shares cutting-edge insights from analyzing over 200 billion pounds of lifts.

You’ll learn how digital resistance adapts to your strength curve, why Tonal feels 20–26% heavier than free weights, and whether that translates into better muscle activation and growth. Troy also explains how technology like real-time resistance adjustments, eccentric overload, and detailed data tracking can complement traditional lifting.

Key Highlights

• Why Tonal Feels Heavier:
  Tonal’s electromagnetic resistance eliminates inertia, requiring continuous effort throughout the range of motion. This makes every rep feel harder compared to free weights, where momentum can provide assistance.

• Advanced Features for Strength and Safety:

  • Dynamic adjustments: Tonal can automatically adjust resistance mid-lift if it detects you’re struggling, acting as a built-in spotter.

  • Eccentric overload: Push 100 pounds on the way up and resist 125 pounds on the way down with the touch of a button.

  • Chains and bands emulation: Adjust resistance to match your natural strength curve, providing consistent tension at every point.

• Who Benefits Most from Tonal?
  While Tonal can accommodate up to 250 pounds (equivalent to 300+ pounds in free weights), it’s ideal for hypertrophy, functional fitness, and accessory work. It’s not designed for competitive powerlifters working with extreme loads, but it excels as a versatile, tech-enabled home gym.

• Consistency Through Data:
  Tonal tracks every rep and provides insights into muscle fatigue, progress, and performance trends. Users who engage with their data and follow structured programs see higher consistency and better long-term results.

The Science of Dynamic Resistance

Tonal’s innovative design enables unique training benefits:

• Enhanced Muscle Activation: Research from High Point University shows similar muscle activation to free weights at a lower absolute load, making it an efficient option for hypertrophy and strength.

• Data-Driven Programming: AI algorithms progressively overload your lifts based on performance, ensuring continual gains while minimizing plateaus.

Building Strength and Hypertrophy

Whether you’re rehabbing an injury, maintaining muscle during a fat loss phase, or chasing strength and hypertrophy, Tonal adapts to your goals:

• Recovery programs with lighter weights ensure consistency without overloading.

• Dynamic resistance modes help target specific phases of movement, such as lengthened partials for hypertrophy.

Closing Thoughts

Tonal’s dynamic resistance system isn’t here to replace free weights but to offer a complementary tool for modern lifters. With cutting-edge technology and real-time data, it’s reshaping how we approach training—whether you’re lifting for longevity, muscle growth, or strength.

Send questions to @witsandweights

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

New research shows that dynamic digital resistance feels up to 26% heavier than free weights, but does that translate to better muscle growth? Today we're getting into the science with Troy Taylor, who's analyzed data for over 200 billion pounds lifted. As the Senior Director of Performance Innovation at Tonal, you'll discover the latest research on muscle activation, learn how dynamic resistance adapts to your strength curves and understand exactly when to use each training method for optimal gains, even if you're currently all in on free weights. If you're curious about technology and optimizing muscle gain, you'll really enjoy this episode. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:10

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're examining the science behind dynamic versus traditional resistance training with Troy Taylor. Now Troy leads performance innovation at Tonal, where his team analyzes millions of workouts. Understand the effectiveness of dynamic resistance. As the former high-performance director at US Ski and Snowboard, he helped athletes secure over 500 international podiums using traditional methods. Now this experience lets him evaluate where each training modality might be most effective for muscle development, and today you're going to learn what research shows us about muscle activation in these dynamic versus free weight training. You're going to look at the scientific mechanisms behind things like perceived effort and actual gains and understand how to optimize your training using one or both approaches. Troy, welcome to the show.

Troy Taylor: 1:45

Thank you so much for having me on. I look forward to our conversation.

Philip Pape: 1:48

So I wanted to kick off with a study that hopefully I have my facts right 2021 at the Human Biomechanics and Physiology Lab at High Point University and they compared the muscle activation in Tonal's product to free weights, which is the main point of skepticism for many of us, of not only feeling the load and feeling the heaviness of it, but actually getting the result and getting the muscle growth. And I think they found something like 23 or 26% heavier it felt heavier based on RPE. So what's actually going on there?

Troy Taylor: 2:20

Yeah, so it was Kevin Ford's lab out of High Point University. He's an awesome biomechanics researcher. 200 plus peer-reviewed papers. And so what we heard from our community hey, I can curl 20-pound dumbbells in the gym all the time, but 18 or 17 pounds on tonal feels really difficult. What's going on? And so we basically wanted to commission peer-reviewed research to be able to look at that. And so what we did, or what they did, it's an independent study, I just get the results.

Troy Taylor: 2:49

It looked at four different movements. I know there were curls in there, there was deadlift in there, there was a couple of other movements and they did two things. Number one, they worked out they took 15 or so subjects, moderately trained, and took them to an estimated one RM and free weight and an estimated one RM on tonal and compared the two. And what we found out is right in that 20, 25% range is tonal feels 20, 25% heavier than free weight, and we'll talk about why that might be in a second. But essentially they were lifting for the same maximal effort. They were lifting less on tonal than they were on free weights. And then they did a back-off training session where they looked at 10 reps at, say, 70% of your 1RM. I'm pulling this from memory but I think it was right around there. And then they looked at surface EMG for muscle activation and what's happening at this lower resistance, because 70% at lower 1RM is a lower weight. What's happening with the muscle activation from a surface EMG point of view? And in that they found basically the same EMG activation at the same relative percentage of 1RM, but an absolute lower muscle mass and surface EMG. It's got its pros and cons. It's very good. It gives us an understanding of the muscles activated. Emg does not equal hypertrophy necessarily, but it does give us an indicator that the muscles are activated at lower weights. So the question would be why? I think it's probably the question that you asked me and I took a long way of answering it, but I think we didn't start like. This is not studied in the research necessarily, but like from our own internal data, we've been able to analyze this.

Troy Taylor: 4:18

A vast majority of it comes down to moment of inertia and the impact of inertia. When you're lifting with a free mass, it's Newton's second law Once it moves it wants to carry on moving. How we can clean and jerk and snatch is the bars going up and it gives me time to get under it, and so once you're putting speed into a free weight bar, it wants to carry moving up fast for a little period of time. That doesn't exist as much on tonal. It's not that there's no inertia, but there's much less inertia. The motor, as soon as you start pushing or stop pushing against, it essentially stops very quickly. So you have this lower level of inertia. Therefore you have to push through the entire range of motion for every movement, which means that your estimated or your 1RMs and your muscle activation essentially can be reached at a lower weight. I'd say that's some made up percentage, but 70, 80, 90% of the variation is based on that.

Troy Taylor: 5:11

There's also a component of stability, depending on the movement pattern. On deadlift it doesn't really matter Deadlifting on tonal and deadlifting in free weight, stability doesn't really come into it. You're lifting a heavy object off the ground but say something like bicep curls, it's a cable machine. That's what tonal is, and so it's slightly different. Right, there's a bit more stability in going on in terms of variations of shoulders and sort of your shoulder girdle and stability around there, potentially within the sort of the wrist and also the elbow, and so you might get additional activation. I think they probably looked at bicep brachii or something like that in the research study of that stabilization component which would add to a slightly lower estimated 1RM but potentially increased or similar muscle activation.

Philip Pape: 5:55

Yeah, okay. So there's a lot to unpack and a lot of really cool things I want to touch on, because I was just talking to a friend of mine just before this call. He was showing off some of the new equipment that his YMCA has that introduces instability, such as water-based weights things like that, perturbation, training type kind of Perturbation training, yeah, and we talk about how there's pros and cons, depending on what your goal is right.

Philip Pape: 6:14

Sometimes you want a ton of stability if you're trying to target a muscle group, and sometimes you want instability, which then tends to reduce the overall load, but then systemically you get some benefits. So you're kind of touching on those things. And the thing with tonal and I know we haven't even, like, exactly said what it is People can Google it. We're going to talk about it, Is it? It does remind me of a cable machine and it reminds me specifically of like, when my cable machine sometimes needs to be oiled up or like has more friction than I intended in the pulley and so you notice it gets even more. You know more of that resistance through the range of anyway, bad analogy.

Philip Pape: 6:48

The point is it's very different than just a free weight, like you said, because of the um, the strength curve and the momentum and all of that. So I'm trying to think of where the best place to start on this is. I think our audience is people who are used to traditional lifting and I want to understand what's similar, but then also what makes Tonal unique and maybe an advantage over traditional lifting. I just threw like a bunch of stuff at you. Go ahead, man. Yeah, no.

Troy Taylor: 7:13

I'm not sure my product marketing would love the analogy on the stickiness.

Troy Taylor: 7:17

But it's extremely smooth, but you do have to pull through the entire range of motion. There's no freebies. That's the way I can think. You imagine a rotational chop or something on a cable machine. If you get that moving in the first quarter of it you don't really have to pull because the momentum is taking you. The rest, with tonal, it's almost like working with chains, which we can talk about. It's maintaining the load, it's not increasing the resistance, but it's maintaining the resistance through the entire range of motion, which makes it feel different and technically harder. So let's get there. So where to start? I would say what is Tonal and then we can go from there.

Troy Taylor: 7:51

Tonal my VP of product, farman, gave me this because I struggled to give an elevator pitch it's an entire gym that fits in your space with the options of personal training. So what makes it an entire gym? About it yes, it's a cable machine. It's a dual stack cable machine in that there's two arms that come out. You can do 250 plus movements, from deadlifting and squatting and bench pressing to flies, to attach a barbell, to attach ropes, to attach handles If you see on my Instagram to attach any other accessory that you might want to attach a cable machine, even things like sled drags and stuff like that, if you want to get a little outside of the box so you can replicate many, many, many movements maybe not all, but many movements from a gym. It fits in your space. If you're watching this on video, it's behind me. It attaches to your wall. It's about five inches thick. It looks kind of like a big screen TV. To some extent it's designed to be in your home, whether it's a home gym or in your living room or your spare bedroom. It can go in your garage, but the idea was to kind of make it aesthetically pleasing so more people can put it in, because we know the more obvious it is, the more likely you are to use it. It's good for us from an engagement point of view. It's good for the consumer because, from an engagement point of view and with personal training, yeah, we have 300 or so programs and adding every month 5,000 workouts.

Troy Taylor: 9:10

Myself and my team write a lot of those along with coaches, from everything from I want to build muscle mass to I want to lose fat, I want to do strength training where I want to do yoga or I want to do all these different variations. So it's got a whole kind of components there, and then we have, you know, virtual coaches that are on screen that can show you the technique. And then we use technology both table position data and also AI, pose estimation models from a camera to be able to tell you are you doing that movement well, and give you coaching cues of yeah, hey, we've noticed that, you know that shoulder stability on that overhead press seems to be a little off, or you seem to be moving really quickly on the eccentric and not controlling it, and we can give you coaching cues for that. So it's that, and it provides resistance via a motor rather than through iron or traditional weights, and so I think the easiest analogy for people to get their heads around this is it's the Tesla or electric car to a combustion engine in some aspects, and there are people that love both, and there are pros and cons to it or differences between them the fact that it's electromagnetic we have that lack of inertia we talked about. So it's a motor that's providing it, but also that allows us to one monitor highly, highly in detail 50 Hertz, hertz, 50 times a second, every position, every force.

Troy Taylor: 10:26

Imagine you've used a gym aware or a linear position transducer, or sometimes an imu attached to a bar that measures your bar speed. We do that every rep, every exercise, every person, close to 10 billion reps or something like that. But you can also as, as well as monitoring it it's closed loop you can change that resistance in real time. So an example of that might be hey, chains, I want to hit the chains mode. As you increase, as the cables extend, we can make it linearly heavier. Touch of a button, you want to add an eccentric, accentuated, eccentric loading. Touch of the button, you can add eccentric loading, and so it's 100 pounds going up, or concentrically, 125 pounds eccentrically.

Troy Taylor: 11:09

And it allows us to build AI algorithms like, say, a built-in spotter mode. So if we detect you are struggling, you're halfway up a bench pressure, you're in your home gym, you're shouting for your wife or your husband or someone to come and help you, we can peel the weight off. We can do one of two things Peel the weight off one pound at a time until you move it, so it automatically allows that. Or two, just switch the weight off if you're not moving, automatically done, it's gone, disappeared. You hurt yourself. Done, there's no resistance anymore, immediately. So those are some of the ways and changes that we take traditional training and make some things better.

Philip Pape: 11:45

Yeah, no, I love. I'm a huge fan of technology. I mean I have I always have the latest Oura Ring and Apple Watch and like phone and tablet. I just love that stuff. So it's really cool to see how you're using things in very creative ways like that, with the real-time resistance, for example, like there's no way you could do that unless you had this kind of system or just the monitoring. I mean, I'm a huge fan of tracking and monitoring.

Philip Pape: 12:09

We talk about it all the time, and to do that with a traditional gym would require lots of extra equipment and expertise to even do that properly. And then the spotter as well, because people with home gym safety is huge. And again, when I hear people benching without spotter arms, I'm like what are you doing, Right? So one question that comes up then when we compare to traditional load is those of us that are trying to build a big base of strength and we like to push big lifts and high loads, something like a squat, and you're a 300, 400 pound squatter or you're a four or 500 pound deadlifter. I know the limits, just pure numbers wise are like 200. And maybe that's going up in the next version. Um, how does that compare and how can you? Can you replicate that, or is that just a different use case?

Troy Taylor: 12:47

Yeah, so as we record this podcast, 200 pounds is the max limit for Tonal. We talked about how that feels, 20, 25% lighter, so it feels like 250 pounds of free weight. And as of the 8th of January we announced because this podcast will release after then Tonal 2, which goes to 250 pounds. And so if you think about that, times by 20 or 25%, you're now over 300 pounds of equivalent resistance from a mass. That's, I think, the limit of where you can go. And then it's like if you're training 1RMs and you can 1RM 500 pound deadlift, are you going to do your max strength training on top? No, we're not that use case.

Troy Taylor: 13:28

The number of people that are lifting 500 pounds on a deadlift are probably not that many, while it's feasibly technically to do that. On electromagnetic resistance you start making trade-offs, mainly price and cost, because we have to have bigger motors that draw more power. You need special voltage in your house to be able to power that and then we have to beef up every single component to not be able to lift 500 pounds. But you have to make safety factors, factors of safety 3.75 times the amount of weight you can lift. So you have to make all the components 15, 16, 1700 pounds and so it just exponentially is not worth it. So if that's your goal and you're trying for one RMs and that's where you're not, then tone is probably not the product for you, for that circumstance Doesn't mean it can't be a good product for accessory training and other things.

Troy Taylor: 14:15

I'd also say if we say we're at 300, 315 pounds of free weight equivalent, if you're training you're a 500 pound deadlifter or maybe slightly less, but you're training, you know you're a 500 pound deadlifter. Or you know maybe slightly less, but you're training 6, 8, 10, 12 rep petitions. You're probably right in that kind of range. It's probably your 1RM work that we can't do or your very low rep work, but you know lower percentages of your 1RM. You're probably out. So we're really excited about that change in that you know there's only 10% ish of our users that actually max out the machine. But I'm one of those 10% on deadlifts and some of our other community, and so we wanted to be able to raise it up to 250, which subjectively I've never had no research on this Like, yeah, I can deadlift 350. I can just about get 250 for a single on total. It's maybe a bit skill training too and your ability to do that, but it feels pretty heavy.

Philip Pape: 15:10

That's cool, yeah, no, I mean, I can definitely imagine, even for the strongest folks. And again, you're not talking about competitive power lifters or anything here.

Troy Taylor: 15:17

Let's start with the population. But even those- 35, 55-year-olds is target audience. We have definitely 18 to 80-year-olds, but it's probably people like me and you who are relatively strong, but not necessarily I'm mentioning you in my level of strength, which is probably not fair but relatively strong, but not competing on the powerlifting stage.

Philip Pape: 15:38

Yeah, yeah and for sure. Given my own experience with running all sorts of programs, probably 80, 90% of the work you're going to do would fit in that envelope. For tonal, if not more especially hypertrophy work, you know bodybuilding type splits and whatnot, working out in the eight to 12 rep range and stuff, I definitely see the benefit. And for developmental variations, like you said, maybe you go to the gym once or twice a week to get the big heavy stuff and then you've got your tonal. For everything else it's convenient as a home gym option.

Philip Pape: 16:05

I do yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, exactly, that makes sense. Yeah, and I even have clients that don't have tonal on this. Still, they'll go to the gym for this and they'll have the home gym for this. So it's a very common thing to kind of split that up, since you have all this data, and not just data in the moment for the lifter, but all the I think you 200 billion pounds of lifts or something like it's a really amazing number. What kind of patterns are you seeing that? I don't know what we should talk about specifically, but either progression rates comparing to traditional resistance insights that are that surprise you guys, and maybe we're like are informing the future of the product. You know, tell me about some, some of what you learned from the data.

Troy Taylor: 16:43

Yeah, and so, yeah, I think it's where we really support. Last year, the state of strength that I think was we were around 200 billion pounds, then it's more now. I don't even know how many billion, but it obviously increases every time anyone lifts, and so you get both just the amount of lifted, and then you get to track people longitudinally anonymously. But we first released the product late 2019, not a ton of users back then. You're a small startup, but as we add more people and more things, that data set grows, but also the longitudinal tracking we forward another five or 10 years. You're like okay, I got a decade worth of data from someone that transitioned from being well, not someone from tens to hundreds of thousand people that transitioned from being 30 to 40 year olds. What can I learn? And so I would say right now what are some of the key insights? I think a lot of them, I would say, are proving out what research studies is generally shown in short term 12, 16 week studies, but maybe in slightly different populations and over longer times and also assessing some of the epidemiology research, so like cross-sectional, where I take a bunch of 34 year olds and I look at a bunch of 40 year olds and see what's the difference between them, and so some of the things that I really like out of that is number one.

Troy Taylor: 18:06

We see changes in strength are dramatic with people that train. That's not new. We know people get trained, they get stronger, but they get stronger and it's not just. It doesn't stop at 12 weeks. We're seeing consistent increases over the first year, two years. After two years it does start to plateau, for sure. You still make incremental increases, but looking at tens of thousands of people who are looking at the mean increases in terms of that, you're definitely seeing these increases. We're talking 70%, 75% I want to say average in the first year increases in strength across the general population. This is not a well-trained resistance population, this is not a beginner population. It's just looking at tens of hundreds of thousands of people and what kind of changes they seem to make. Those changes regardless of age. And actually our 55-plus-year-old members seem to make relatively larger increases in strength than our younger population, which I think is a great message for me as a 45-year-old and they start at a lower baseline, for sure, but relatively, and I think the research again shows this that we can build strength at any age. But we're seeing they can build strength as fast, if not faster, than our younger population and for significant periods of time. We're seeing that our female members particularly are lifting heavier year over year, week over week. They're relatively individually getting stronger and making those same changes, but they're also as a cohort of a population. If you got to look at, say, 25,000 females that joined in 2020 and compare it to 25,000 females that joined in 2020, people are getting stronger over time that join our product, both as they join and their increases once they get there. So I take that as a really good message for the message that strength training for female it seems to be getting out there at least taking this data and kind of interpolating or extrapolating it a little, which I think is super cool.

Troy Taylor: 20:01

And then one of the things that I think we have a unique vantage point because of the data is what is associated correlation, not causation, with markers of consistency, like. So maybe most of your audience actually probably just works out, because they're intrinsically motivated. It's part of their identity that we're in the autonomy stage. I'm going to work out if no one's looking, no one's monitoring. It's just who I am. It's what I've done always and I will always do the average person. Cdc says what 30-something percent of Americans self-select that they resistance train twice a week and I think that's probably self-selected, so it's a little high. So most of the population isn't training. So what can we see in the data that looks at consistency and what is correlated again, not causation with consistency. And we see people that join programs are more consistent than people that just do one-off workouts. Makes a ton of sense. You've got a bit of a plan. You've got a commitment device from behavior science. You're signing up to something. So maybe there's actually reverse causation, a bit of like people that sign up for programs are more likely to intend to do that. But we'd certainly see the increases there.

Troy Taylor: 21:14

People that check their stats and their progress tonal tracks every rep every time. You get to see your volume, your power. You get to see progress. Strength training changes are slow, sometimes they take a while, but with Tonal, with one pound changes you can get to. Oh, I've got a new estimated one RM. I lifted more volume than ever. My power on this move is higher than it's ever been. People that check their stats are more consistent. And then some of the other data is right, like consistency of timing of training and having the same window. People that train in the morning are slightly more consistent than those in the afternoon, and so these other data is around consistency, which we can either use to build into the product to make it more sticky pretty freaking sticky already, but more sticky and help people there or things that we can share with the broader fitness population. Hey, from this unique vantage point of data, maybe incorporating these things into fitness training program might help clients be more consistent.

Philip Pape: 22:06

I'm smiling because you should just be the co-host with me, like you're just selling every point that I want people to hear about training every time on this podcast. I mean I want to summarize some of what you said for folks just so they drill it in. But like the fact that you get so much stronger in the first year or two, no matter your age, is super empowering, right? Because the kind of the I like to call it the number one cause of death is frailty, which leads to falls, which leads to a lot of the other metabolic disease that ends up being heart disease or this or that. It's all tied together to strength muscle, you know and that. And so in one to two years, having 75% growth in year one not uncommon, you know. When I tell people in three or four months, you can like I'll say I'll say double. But I say double too. It's easy to remember. But yeah, you know, but like newbie, get it brand new People can really double it. So you're talking about the average 75% in one year and then another, probably another 50% in the second year.

Philip Pape: 22:59

It's massive and most people are far from their genetic limit at any one point and that life interrupts us and we detrain and so train for the rest of your life and you'll always probably improve in some sense. And then the rates of gain. Yeah, I've, I've seen that as well, troy, lately. How, for example, you know, women and men gain at roughly the same rate. Women often think they're disadvantaged. The only disadvantage is they have less muscle mass to start, but the rate is the same. And what you're saying is that it might even be faster when we're older, potentially. I mean, what's the theory there? That we're detrained, we've lost muscle mass and it kind of comes back faster, something like that.

Troy Taylor: 23:32

Yeah, potentially guesstimation here, but yeah, potentially. Our users are people that trained in high school and college and then stopped training for a long time. The data also points they're more consistent and this data doesn't normalize and so they're training more frequently and more consistently. Therefore they get better gains. They have more time. Maybe the young kids or the busy job or whatever it might be. Not many 55 plus year olds have both of those, but as a cohort population they train a little more consistency, which I think is probably also driving it Okay.

Philip Pape: 24:04

So, yeah, we're taking more of the retirement age as well, and, yeah, okay, got it. And then females women lifting heavier yeah, that's a big message we have here, and I try to get a lot of guests on, also experts who are women in that sphere, to talk about that, because there are a lot of misconceptions about what women can't do, which most of them are false at any age, especially peripost-menopause, where some of these myths start to come up, and we know it's just like with most people. It's the loss of muscle mass and the increase in body fat, and you just have to flip that around. And then I love the stats about consistency because you hit on a couple of things. One that tracking. I love tracking and measuring.

Philip Pape: 24:43

People complain about tracking being obsessive or whatever. But all evidence about tracking anything food, lifting, whatever, food doesn't matter shows better results, at least for a period of time, at least for a period of time. So you train yourself right and then you can get off that if you need to. But the fact that you have the ability to see wins at a more granular level, I think is important, right? It's why, when we talk about your lifting, you know you should track as many measures as you care about, that will change fairly frequently, so that you can see the progress and you're doing it automatically for folks. And then the morning training guys listening, if you've already listened to this show, I talk about it all the time. There is a difference for people. The morning is just you get going. It creates consistency. Don't say you're not a morning person. Stop saying that. Just try it out for a while.

Troy Taylor: 25:27

Anyway, Troy, yeah, I have empathy. I never thought I was a morning person, but I have a couple of young kids and a wife. That's morning personal. I'm a morning person now, uh, but I, some people. It's not feasible, right I?

Philip Pape: 25:40

got my job for sure, and that kind of thing.

Troy Taylor: 25:42

So I don't want to like and it's, it's.

Troy Taylor: 25:44

The data from ours is not like it's all if I don't go down in the morning I shouldn't work out, but I think what it is is less stuff comes up during the day that derails you, and so I think that's primary is my hypothesis of what drives it, and and so you can do that. And then number two is like, yes, if you do do it, the kind of the rest of your day goes better. We know the impact of you know training on BDNF and mood state and you know selective attention, executive function, all these other like emotional and mental and cognitive functions, in addition to the physiology. I feel more energy in those. But yeah, we definitely see that. In addition to the physiology, I feel more energy in those. But yeah, we definitely see that. And I personally I just said I just finished my workout, like 10 minutes before this.

Troy Taylor: 26:24

I finished my 10 minute workout. I just exercised snack, I got something in. It started my day right. I didn't have long. I had a podcast. I probably should have tried to do my hair a little better, but I'll go back after this podcast and try and get another 10 minutes in. And then you know, this afternoon I'll go and get, and I got 30 minutes of training, but it was in three 10 minute blocks, um, and that's how I structure my day.

Troy Taylor: 26:46

I don't do that first one, I don't do the other ones. It's like this like you've got to get that breadcrumb going.

Philip Pape: 26:51

Yeah right, there are a lot of benefits to morning training if you can do it. Another one is, I think, stress management we're seeing when you look at cortisol and stuff like that. So, okay, you talked a lot, so you mentioned strength a lot, which is music to my ears because I always start from that. But strength and hypertrophy, although they're somewhat proxies for each other, they're also not always correlated. So when it comes to hypertrophy, how are you measuring your population on that like circumference? Measurements and such we are not not directly.

Troy Taylor: 27:24

We have a beta of a computer vision-based estimation. I'm an applied scientist at heart and that kind of thing, so I want to be able to do everything really accurately. If I can't give you a good number, I don't want to just give you a number. My take on what the data says on a lot of that even I would go to bioelectrical impedance and arguably even something like DEXA on an individual level. It's at a population level DEXA is great, but an individual level, those variation charts are pretty significant Correct. So no, we haven't.

Troy Taylor: 27:56

I can take a lot of my guidance from some of the influences and researchers in this space. I feel most of them are more subjective on a lot of those measures. Yes, if I could measure your bicep girth or your waist girth or your hip to waist ratio really accurately, I would. I don't think that the technology is there right now. We don't measure hypertrophy directly, but certainly we have indirect measures, whether it's strength or volume lifted and things like that. And then we have a community 60,000 or so in our Facebook community and you get to see their transformations. I wouldn't say we're like a transformation tonal brand. That's not really what we do. We don't do before and afters. Try and sell you gimmicky, right? Uh, that's not a time but. But people want to post their progress, which is awesome until you get to see. So we don't. I would say. Also, muscles no tension, right, tension is what drives mechanical tension is what drives hypertrophy, and I think we have extremely strong evidence that tonal drives the same, if not more, mechanical tension yeah, for sure additional training.

Troy Taylor: 28:57

Therefore, you you can get the same kind of hypertrophy and I'd say it's. It's interesting because I would love to be able to measure it. It's what the vast majority of our users select as their goal right 40 something percent of our members say they want to build muscle. I have that goal as a 45 year old kind of things. Um, we have, we are seeing an increasing uh number that say they want to move, work, movement, quality, function, strength, basically this bucket of goals that lead to longevity, health, span. But the largest cohort of people, particularly our male population, say they still want to build muscle and that's where we focus a lot of our programming and time and attention for sure Got it Got it.

Philip Pape: 29:31

Yeah, and I only ask as a nutrition coach who helps clients track these things, and we just do classic tape measure and then use something like the Navy formula. It's not difficult to do that on your own. I just was thinking like the Zozo suit and things like that, where they've got the imaging and can kind of measure your circumference and then you know, I assumed you could do something like that Fast forward 18 months, two years, I don't know the timeline.

Troy Taylor: 29:55

I don't, like I told you, we have a beta product. That's just within our internal staff. I probably shouldn't share those things, but the technology will get there. If you think about the advances in pose estimation models and advances, I don't doubt, particularly for girths, it will get there. Body fat, muscle mass I think you're stretching.

Philip Pape: 30:10

I agree To do girth measurements.

Troy Taylor: 30:12

do it with accuracy, in my opinion, is a matter of time before it can get to that level, and I think that'd be awesome that we can do that and track those progresses.

Philip Pape: 30:22

Yeah, Cause once you have that, now you can. You've got things like the Navy formula as well as the new body roundness index, and I don't know if you're familiar with that. Yeah, Okay. So I did want to ask about okay, let's run it, run us through a single lift. So let's say the overhead press, one of my favorites. It's one of my favorites because I've always loved it, but also I had rotator cuff surgery last year and I couldn't do it and I've been working on my shoulder a lot to get back. So if you just want to get better at that, you want to improve your shoulder health and your shoulder size, what would the progression look like? What does the machine look like for an overhead press? Like what does the machine look like for an overhead press? Just with that example so folks can visualize this.

Troy Taylor: 30:59

Yeah, so myself and the team, the performance innovation team, so my team, my background is mainly from Olympic sport, but we've got people that spent a decade or so at Exos, one that did their PhD at P3, p Performance Project in Santa Barbara, which shows a lot of the basketball players and around there. What my team basically said how would a coach, how would a world-class hopefully coach, address those? And so, if we're taking something like an overhead press, we would split our library into some buckets of movement patterns, right, what is a regression or a beginning movement pattern that we might be able to do? That that is likely smaller in range of motion, potentially maybe lower resistance to start with, and then have progressions both in the movement pattern and in the resistance and the range of motion so we can build that up strength over time. And so, depending on what the specific case might be, we might have some quote-unquote remedial internal and know internal and external rotational work in there that will be programmed into that.

Troy Taylor: 32:02

We might have, you know, you know, a high base of support in a on a overhead press, you know, maybe a barbell versus a handle or something like that. Or maybe we go a handle with lower resistance, so it's a lighter weight. So you can work on the mechanics of doing that and then increase the range of motion that you can move that over time to progress it into something that would be more, more where you want to work, but depending on whether you're, you know, want to do that movement pattern, to be stronger at that movement pattern, you want to increase your 1rm or you, you know, want to build more muscle mass around that. Then we change the rex and schemes you know, obviously relatively increase, relatively load more on for a strength parameter, probably bias, more proximity to failure and volume for hypertrophy outcomes, and typically we would progress. I would say every program is a little different or can be a little different. I would say our default pattern is to more build from hypertrophy into strength than the other way around.

Philip Pape: 32:59

Okay, tend to go higher rep ranges. Wrap the reps as you go.

Troy Taylor: 33:03

Yeah, higher rep ranges closer proximity to failure into more strength-biased work. Lower rep ranges strength. It gives us the hypertrophy training and the generally slightly higher rep training. It doesn't have to be very high but slightly higher.

Philip Pape: 33:22

Rep training doesn't have to be very high, but slightly higher.

Troy Taylor: 33:23

Rep training allows us repetition of practice and skill. Yeah, that's huge, which itself is a component of that strength. Skill acquisition is something that we want to install. We know the drivers of um motivation. We talked about intrinsic motivation before. I like competency. I want to feel good about things like and then autonomy and connectedness, but self-determination theory, but competency. We want our members to feel competent, that they have the ability to do this lift well.

Philip Pape: 33:43

And then on that progression, since it has all the data and it knows you, let's say it's a I don't know three-day program, four-day program and the next time you overhead presses, four days from now, does the program tracks like your calendar? What if you miss a workout? Is it going to somehow test you into the new load?

Troy Taylor: 34:00

Yeah, it has a has a calendar where you can self-select it. It knows when your last workout was. As long as it's within a normal sort of range of window, um, it doesn't change anything, but it has muscle utilization. So we estimate the muscle utilization and fatigue for every movement. So, like you know, if your program was three days a week, say, but like hey, uh, the bros called me and we went and we benched super heavy on a Tuesday and like it wasn't part of the program on tonal, we'll track that data and say you're fatigued? Um, like we wasn't part of the program but we know that you did it and therefore we will, you know, say that you're fatigued. You get to be able to see that data of muscle utilization and muscle fatigue. Um, and, yeah, we can, we can adapt around that no, no, that's good.

Philip Pape: 34:42

Yeah, I'm just, I'm just it's. It's pretty cool when you can. I'm thinking again of consistency one, because people always have roadblocks, like now I have to think about my next workout and then how much weight do I lift the next time, and all these things. I was gonna say that we.

Troy Taylor: 34:56

We suggest every weight for every movement. We do a movement calibration or a strength calibration. At the start it's only four movements and essentially it takes you up to an estimated, probably like it's 10 or 8 RM, and then we estimate up from there. But from there we can estimate with an AI algorithm every single movement for every single pattern, so you get the right suggested weight. And then we have another algorithm that has progressive overload built in it.

Troy Taylor: 35:24

If we sense those last two reps, you're not in close proximity to failure. We're going to increase that weight by one or two pounds for the next workout and we do that a little more. Let's say I'm going to say the word aggressive, but a little faster earlier in your progress, because we know you're going to be making progress quicker and a little slower once you've been established lifting hey, I sure has been lifting for a while now on toner. I'm not increasing the load every single time, even if I say I've got like two reps in failure. I'm going to shoot like the machine's going to want me to show that to it a couple of times.

Troy Taylor: 35:52

Yeah that this wasn't just a freaky strong day and he slept great, ate great, took all the stress out of his life. Then he hit PRs. But I need to do it multiple times to do that. But essentially there's a progressive overload algorithm, so you're constantly being challenged in that variation.

Philip Pape: 36:10

Yeah, I love that. And another thing that came to mind when you were talking about the shoulder pressing it sounds like you can have therapy and recovery programs as well.

Troy Taylor: 36:18

Right, yeah, we have a recovery like default recovery weight mode. So super easy. You can just add recovery weights to any workout, any program. Hey, today I don't feel it. I slept terribly, you know, but had more alcohol than I probably should have. Whatever the reason is, hit recovery weights, everything drops to 80% so you can still do the training session again.

Troy Taylor: 36:37

Consistency Don't want to lose that habit, kind of things, but everything's a little diet things. And then the next time you can go back to your full weight. And then we have, like more specific programs where we will reduce the weight from your like what an estimated you know, one RM for that particular move will be for specific kind of purposes. Sometimes it might be for more like I don't know, a hypertrophy. We want to do myoreps and therefore we need to reduce the weights, or something like that. Or it could be for a therapeutic situation where someone you know we had some programs that are intended for absolute beginners and we don't want to push you we know enjoyment is super important. We know, um, we know that doms are a challenge to building consistency early. So let's try and take away that option to start with.

Jerry: 37:26

Hey, just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.

Jerry: 37:28

I personally worked with Philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.

Jerry: 37:36

Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one he's really taken the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth. If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, philip.

Philip Pape: 38:39

I was even thinking if someone, let's say someone had had surgery and they needed rehab obviously there's a medical kind of scope of practice issue involved as well. But do you like, could I go in there and say give me a shoulder internal rotation mobility program.

Troy Taylor: 38:55

Number one. In that scenario your therapist can write a custom workout, a custom program, or you as an individual to for your very specific individual, for your very specific, and then you can add recovery weights to that kind of thing, so it's going to give you a lighter. We have an algorithm that if you've been off the machine for a while, we will reduce the weights because you're probably detrained. I think in therapy situations we certainly have a number of therapists that utilize tonal in their rehab process and in their small group training process. I would say that's mostly done via a custom basis where just a trainer goes in or a coach goes in or a therapist goes in. Hey, this is my specific shoulder rehab program for you. You can do it in my clinic on my tonal or you can do it at home on your tonal and we get the data. Either way, yeah.

Philip Pape: 39:39

And what about somebody's phase of nutrition, like if they're dieting, they're cutting heavy versus they're bulking? Do you just account for that with the progressive overload detection or do you program that in? Do you say like I'm actually in a fat loss phase now, so you got to account?

Troy Taylor: 39:56

for that you would get to choose from your goal and therefore the workouts or programs that would better align to your goals. We know that diet is mostly nutrition-based. Our philosophy from a training perspective during periods of fat loss or weight loss is generally to make sure you have enough stimulus to maintain muscle mass. I don't think anyone that diets wants to lose muscle mass. So we know that proximity to failure and volume are important to maintaining muscle mass. So we'll that proximity to failure and volume are important to maintaining muscle mass. So we'll be thinking about those in a program and we do have an element of work in there.

Troy Taylor: 40:28

Right, burning extra calories is not going to be the difference maker between losing 20 pounds and not losing 20 pounds. But if I can give you a bit more compound high movements, bit more volume, we measure work, so we measure force over distance all the time. If I can bias the movements towards those big compound movements rather than a ton of isolation exercises, yeah, I'm going to try and leverage that a little bit and maybe that will be a couple of hundred calories, that additional burn that you might get. But I'd say that's our kind of approach is to mostly focus on the maintenance of muscle mass and making sure we're getting stimulus and secondary to work about with work during those periods.

Philip Pape: 41:04

Okay, cool, yeah, just throwing a lot of these questions are just literally selfish questions. For me wondering about this stuff Because another one comes to mind is there's a lot of talk in the research about range of motion and lengthened partials. What's better, what's not?

Troy Taylor: 41:18

Milo Wolf.

Philip Pape: 41:19

Yeah, yeah, exactly, milo Wolf right, and there's a lot of. I guess the general consensus right now is look, just use a diversity of movements. We're talking about traditional training, Use full range of motion by default, but then you can play around with different ranges as finishers and bodybuilding, because you have this different strength curve. How does that equation change?

Troy Taylor: 41:41

Yeah, good question and one I would love to investigate when I get some research time. I know we have a Toner, brad Schoenfeld out of Lehman College, big hypertrophy researcher, milo and Pat. Dr Pat are both involved with Lehman College. They're visiting profs over there so they both have experienced Toner. So we've had some conversations around how we might do that.

Troy Taylor: 42:05

I think there's a couple of things, my take on that research and I think this is emerging and so I don't think there's an absolute consensus. The evidence-based community says this is the way. But I think what it seems clear is you need to do the lengthened portion of the rep if that is whether it's part of a full range or a dedicated partial in that. So when we're talking about the lengthened partial, imagine a fly and it would be this extended part. My peg is most stretched out, that portion you should probably, if your hypertrophy is your goal, not just ever do a partial in the short one range of motion. I think the research is very clear in that, whether the lengthened partial to full range or whether it's just the length and partial to half range is more hypertrophic or not, I think there is evidence to suggest in some muscle groups it looks like it is, whether that's based on only in new lifters and novice lifters, whether it's based on sarcomere, genesis or myofibril or hyper. I don't know if I have a strong opinion on that and I think we could probably get debated by experts much better than me in that space. But definitely you need to do the full range of motion or you need to do the length and portion of that.

Troy Taylor: 43:11

Total has two things. Number one we apply consistent resistance throughout, so it doesn't really matter. So if you imagine, yeah, so that'd be number one. Number two we can emphasize more resistance on the long muscle length, partial portion of that. So imagine a pull down. This is where it's stretching of the lat. You can make it heavier here and lighter here. Reverse chains you know chains like you.

Troy Taylor: 43:38

You can't do change pulling down uh, but you would imagine as the cable extends chains would make it heavier.

Troy Taylor: 43:44

Reverse chains we call smart flex essentially matches the strength curve of the movement. Say it's 100 pounds here, 99, 98, 97, 96, 95, 94, 93, maybe it's 80 at this bottom range. So I'm actually taxing that long muscle length which is where I'm strongest right, that long muscle length which is where I'm strongest right and that might, might lead to more hypertrophy growth because you'd be maxillizing, getting maximum mechanical tension in that long muscle length. I think that's pretty cool. We haven't researched that in a peer reviewed randomized control trial. I would love to at some point. But theoretically, as I understand the mechanisms, you can any row based exercise, particularly, or any any chest based exercise you can over emphasize that that strength curve, uh, which I think is pretty cool.

Philip Pape: 44:34

I think that's really cool too. And then it it brings up you mentioned chain, so like accommodating resistance. That makes me think of. Let's take a bench press sounds like you can. Then because of the curve, you could emulate chains or bands and you could even do an overload right like an eccentric overload. You have that mode.

Troy Taylor: 44:50

You can do it both at the same time if you want um right yeah you don't need a spotter to like take off the first time you do it you're like oh, but like it's potentially very beneficial. Uh, so chains my take on the research, for you know, louis Simmons and all back in the powerlifting days in the West Side really good for powerlifting right or for power development. As we extend. We are generally, you know, we are most powerful at that end range of motion. Chains overloads that end range of motion, so we're getting constant resistance. With Tonal we already said that we don't get that freebie anyway and if you add chains to it it could be really, really beneficial for power training.

Troy Taylor: 45:26

And so I think about that for people that want to get strong or do powerlifting things. I actually think about it for the 55-year-old female that wants to maintain deadlift power. Power is the ability to get out of the chair, to walk up the stairs, to have gait speed, to do all those activities. Those are power exercises. And so I love to add chains because it's a touch of a button to a 65-year-old, post-menopause female program. Because, yeah, it's lighter at the bottom and as you come up and you're stronger at that top motion, it accommodates the resistance to get that power kind of emphasis. And, yes, accentuated eccentric loading probably good for strength development, maybe for hypertrophy. I think the research is out there. But you could add 100 pounds on the way up, 125 pounds on the way down and you can literally do those two together on tonal, which is, I don't know of any evidence to say that's beneficial. But you can if you want to, it's awesome.

Philip Pape: 46:16

Yeah. And one last question related to that. Then if you have a sticking point, so again just saying bench press and you.

Troy Taylor: 46:26

You have a sticking point two inches up the chest, if you're me, yeah does tonal detect what that is based on your velocity or something we we can't. We will detect the velocity change and so that's where I use with that burnout mode, so that will be where it decreases one pound resistance. So I get continual progressive overload of that. In that it will be, you know, 200. I can't bench 200 on tonal. It's too hard for me. I can bench significantly more on a freeway, but on tonal I'm kind of like sets of eight around 180. 180 here and I get to get off two inches off my chest and then it will go 179, 178, 176, 175, and then I can move it again and then it can go back to 200. I can either leave it so it doesn't increase or it goes back to 180 pounds at the top and every time I get to that sticking point it reduces a little bit and I get to work on that sticky point overload.

Philip Pape: 47:07

So cool man. No, I'm glad you came on. I'm glad we had you on to talk about this. It's just fascinating. I go on all day. I know we're short on time, so I do. Is there any question? You wish I had asked that I didn't, and what is your answer?

Troy Taylor: 47:22

Not really, I will say, because when this is releasing, tonal is home gym, that's what I think. We are in some personal training studios and some physical therapy clinics. In January February in New York we are opening the Tonal Training Lab, which is like small group boutique fitness training based on Tonal. So if you're hearing this and you're in the New York area and this comes out around that kind of time from January into February, you can try tonal not just in a showroom and a retail but based on a a sort of a boutique fitness uh work, small workout class which is project time, and even I'm kind of super excited to see how that goes.

Philip Pape: 47:54

Yeah, that's awesome. So that's a, basically a gym is what you're saying with.

Troy Taylor: 47:57

Yeah, Imagine imagine a small group. There's, I think, eight to 10 tonals in the room. It will be a standardized group class but all the advantages of tonal plus real life coaching, Nice. So you get the kind of combination of this tech enabled in-person class, all right, troy.

Philip Pape: 48:12

Well, yeah, thanks for coming on, man and letting us. I mean, I really want people to open their mind to these possibilities because I definitely was skeptical a couple of years ago when I first heard about you guys. I think I heard, I saw, I think you were on Mind Pump and I was like starting to warm up and then had some clients start to use it and start to research it more. This is interesting, especially as part of, like, your overall package here for training and what the options are out there. So keep doing what you're doing, man. I'm excited for the next chapter and thank you so much for coming out.

Troy Taylor: 48:45

Oh, and where do you want people to reach you? Cause I want to throw those in the show notes. Oh, yeah, so, uh, my Instagram is strength science Troy. Uh, you'll see lots of tonal, some evidence-based fitness, but lots of tonal uh. And you know, non non-officials accessories uh for for fun ways to train uh on that. Obviously, tonalcom is the main tonal website and that tonal training lab, uhlabcom, is the website for the New York pop-up gym. Those are probably the best places.

Philip Pape: 49:04

I'll throw those in there. And again, thank you so much, man, for coming on. Thank you so much for having me.

The 3 Million Steps Challenge for Massive Fat Loss in 2025 (Compound Effect) | Ep 267

Join our free Facebook group to connect with others taking the #3MillionSteps2025 Challenge challenge!

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Are you struggling to lose that last bit of fat?

Research shows hitting the right number of daily steps can dramatically boost your metabolism and fat loss through NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis).

Learn how the engineering concept of the Compound Effect explains why small, daily increases in movement create exponential results over time - transforming not just your physique but your entire metabolism.

Main Takeaways:

• The Compound Effect shows how small daily improvements lead to exponential results

• 8,200 daily steps (3 million/year) hits the research-backed sweet spot for health benefits

• Walking enhances lifting results through improved recovery, nutrient partitioning, and metabolism

• Personalized progression rates ensure sustainable implementation based on your starting point

Benefits of walking according to research:

• Enhanced insulin sensitivity and blood sugar control

• Improved nutrient partitioning for muscle growth

• Better recovery between lifting sessions

• Reduced muscle soreness and inflammation

• Enhanced sleep quality and stress reduction

• Increased NEAT for easier fat loss

• Preserved muscle mass during cuts

• Better joint mobility and reduced stiffness

• More stable energy levels throughout the day

• Improved cognitive function for training focus

Remember: Walking alone isn't enough - you need progressive overload through strength training. But for those already lifting, increasing daily steps is the perfect complement to optimize your results.

Join our free Facebook group to connect with others taking the challenge and share your progress

3 Million Steps for Fat Loss: Harnessing the Compound Effect in 2025

Think your daily steps are insignificant for fat loss? Think again. Walking isn’t just a casual activity; it’s a powerful tool for fat loss, improved health, and better training results when used strategically. In this episode of Wits & Weights, we explore how the compound effect—a principle rooted in engineering—shows why small increases in daily movement can lead to massive transformations over time.

By targeting 3 million steps this year (about 8,200 per day), you’ll unlock benefits like better recovery, fat loss, and nutrient partitioning while building sustainable habits. Let’s dive into why daily movement matters, the science behind our 3 million steps target, and how you can implement this challenge today.

The Power of the Compound Effect

The compound effect, a key concept in engineering, shows how small changes can yield exponential results over time. In fitness, this principle applies directly to walking. Every additional step creates a cascade of positive changes:

1. Boosts NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis): Increases daily calorie burn.

2. Enhances metabolism: Improves insulin sensitivity and nutrient partitioning.

3. Promotes overall activity: Encourages more spontaneous movement and better cardiovascular health.

For example, taking 500 extra steps daily might seem minor, but over time, this compounds into significant health and fat loss benefits.

Why 3 Million Steps?

The goal of 3 million steps in 2025 boils down to hitting the evidence-based sweet spot for daily movement. A 2022 meta-analysis in The Lancet found the ideal range for health benefits is 7,000–9,000 steps per day. Our challenge of 3 million steps (8,200 steps/day) falls right in the middle.

Benefits of hitting this target:

• Metabolic improvements: Better insulin sensitivity, blood sugar control, and nutrient utilization.

• Fat loss support: Increased calorie burn (e.g., 120,000 calories/year for 3 million steps).

• Recovery and performance: Enhanced blood flow, reduced inflammation, and faster muscle recovery.

• Mental and physical health: Better stress management, improved sleep, and reduced systemic inflammation.

Building Your Step Goal System

Step 1: Track Your Baseline

Before setting a target, find out your current average steps by tracking for one to two weeks. Use any fitness tracker, phone app, or wearable device.

Step 2: Gradual Progression

Increase your steps incrementally.

• Add 500 steps per day each week if starting from a low baseline (e.g., 3,000 steps/day).

• If you’re closer to 6,000 steps/day, aim for 1,000 extra steps per day weekly.

Step 3: Create a Supportive Environment

Incorporate walking naturally into your daily routine:

• Take a 10-minute walk after meals.

• Use rest periods during workouts to add steps.

• Park farther from your destination or use stairs instead of elevators.

Step 4: Build a Feedback Loop

Track your steps and celebrate progress. Join the Wits & Weights Facebook group for accountability and community support. Share your journey using #3millionsteps2025 to connect with others taking the challenge.

Walking as a Catalyst, Not a Replacement

While walking provides incredible benefits, it’s important to pair it with strength training. Progressive overload through lifting is essential for building and maintaining muscle, which complements the metabolic benefits of daily movement. Walking is the catalyst that amplifies the results you’re already achieving in the gym.

The Compound Effect Goes Both Ways

Every decision compounds over time—whether it’s adding steps or skipping them. A small daily effort, like taking the stairs or walking after dinner, accumulates into big results over weeks and months. Conversely, neglecting these actions can lead to regression.

By embracing the compound effect in 2025, you’re not just adding steps—you’re creating a ripple effect for better health, fat loss, and fitness success.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Think your daily movement doesn't matter much for fat loss. Recent research shows that simply hitting 8,000 steps a day dramatically reduces mortality risk and boosts your metabolism. Today, we're using the engineering principle of compound effects to reveal why 3 million steps this year 2025, could transform your physique and health, and how small increases in daily movement create exponential results over time. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring how one engineering concept, the compound effect, reveals why taking just a few more steps each day this year could be the missing piece in your lifting and nutrition strategy. Now you're already putting in the work at the gym, I hope lifting weights, tracking your protein, focusing on progressive overload. If you're not doing those things, I would set those foundations up before you try to ramp up your steps. But if you're not paying attention to your daily movement, you're missing a crucial catalyst for better recovery, nutrient partitioning and your overall results. Recent research in the Lancet Public Health tells us that mortality risk decreases significantly as steps increase, especially up to about 8,000 to 10,000 steps per day. But most lifters fail to hit these targets because they're trying to change too much too fast, they're not consistent, they're missing the power of compound effects entirely. Today we're gonna break this down into three parts First, how the compound effect in engineering systems explains why small movement creates exponential results. Second, the science behind why our target of 3 million steps lands perfectly in that research-backed sweet spot and can amplify your training results. And finally, the exact system you'll use to build up to this goal this year, based on your current starting point. Before we dive in, if you're ready to join others who are taking up this challenge for themselves this 3 million steps in 2025, and you want some accountability, some support, a place to share and track your results, join our free Wits and Weights Facebook group. You can search Wits and Weights on Facebook or just Facebook. Facebook or click the link in the show notes and you will there find a community of like-minded people who are just sharing their progress. They're posting every day, they're supporting each other and you can look up the hashtag 3millionsteps2025 to specifically follow along in this challenge. Again, join our Facebook group, click the link in the show notes or search for it on Facebook.

Philip Pape: 2:49

Now let's start by understanding the compound effect from an engineering perspective. We like to do that on these Wednesday episodes. In engineering systems we see this principle everywhere, from thermal systems, where tiny improvements in insulation can lead to big savings in energy, to electronic amplifiers, where a small signal gets stronger through a feedback loop, and chemical reactions, where catalysts compound the rate of change. The key here? You don't have to understand these systems, but it's the principle behind them. They don't just add up changes linearly, they multiply them over time through positive feedback loops. James Clear captured this perfectly in Atomic Habits when he talked about how a 1% daily improvement compounds to a 37x improvement over a year. So it is an incredibly important principle that can definitely work with your body, because things in the fitness realm work the same way.

Philip Pape: 3:49

Every additional step that you take creates a cascade of positive feedback loops. Notice I'm not just talking about adding steps and that's the end of the story. Listen to this chain of events. First, when you move more, yes, you are increasing your what we call NEAT, your non-exercise activity thermogenesis. Higher NEAT then boosts your daily calorie burn. That higher calorie burn, or higher energy expenditure, improves a lot of things, such as your insulin sensitivity and, of course, the amount of food you can eat and the amount of fat loss you can achieve. Enhanced metabolism also makes future movement easier. You are now a healthier person. You have better cardiovascular health, better blood sugar control, on and on. And then all of this improved fitness leads to potentially more spontaneous activity that you may not even be aware of, further increasing your NEAT. This is why active people burn a lot more calories, even above and beyond what you would think. Because of this cascade, because of this compound effect of one little thing that upward spirals into multiple behaviors, sometimes unconsciously.

Philip Pape: 4:59

Now one of my clients, jerry I had him on the podcast a while back. He had already lifted for many years. He built a ton of muscle. He was carrying a little bit extra weight, so we wanted to work on fat loss, but he was only getting like 3,000 steps a day because he was an attorney on his butt all day behind a computer Raise your hand virtually if that is you and so we got his steps up to about 8,000 steps per day. It wasn't like 12. It was eight. And within I'll say within weeks, if not days his resting heart rate dropped dramatically. But he also saw that his expenditure climbed as he was in fat loss, which was almost a little I'll say a little bit surprising. It wasn't surprising for me I've seen this happen but the fact that he'd already built most of his genetic muscle that's what made it a little bit surprising the power of adding some steps, and that was just for his expenditure. We saw his health markers improve as well from the movement alone, before he had even lost very much weight at all. So keep that in mind if you're facing a plateau, if you're having issues with recovery, with training, with the amount of food you're eating, how powerful steps can be.

Philip Pape: 6:12

Now let's get into why this specific number. So I came up with this challenge. I'm calling it the 3 million steps challenge. It's not a challenge that you sign up for. It's just a goal that you can aim for for the year, and then you join our Facebook group and together we are going to help each other achieve it. And that specific number may not even be your goal. We'll get there. But I want to explain that number first. If we break it down to a daily number, it comes out to 8,200 steps per day. And here's where the research gets interesting. A 2022 meta-analysis in the Lancet showed that the sweet spot for health benefits lies between 7,000 and 9,000 steps per day. So this target of 8,200 lands right in the middle, right smack dab in the middle of this evidence-based range.

Philip Pape: 6:56

And for those of you already committed to strength training, which I'm going to mention multiple times today, you've got to be doing Walking is not enough, you've got to be strength training. The benefits directly support your goals and they compound them and they spiral them upward. So let's go through those benefits. I have quite a list based on what we've seen in the research. First are the metabolic benefits. Walking enhances your insulin sensitivity, which means better nutrient partitioning when you're trying to grow muscle. Now we know strength training also vastly improves this as well, so they go hand in hand. Related to this is it improves blood sugar control, which helps you with recovery, reducing fat storage as well. If you have historical issues with blood sugar maybe you're pre-diabetic or diabetic it's as powerful, if not more so, than metformin, which is the leading type 2 diabetes medication.

Philip Pape: 7:50

When you go for a walk after a meal so that's always the first place I advise people putting their walks is after a meal. It increases your NEAT, which we mentioned before, and that can account for up to half yes, half of your daily energy expenditure if you are a big time walker, and it also helps with your appetite regulation energy expenditure if you are a big time walker, and it also helps with your appetite regulation. So it just naturally helps you get in better tune with your hunger signals and makes the intuitive aspect of eating food easier. While you're tracking and getting to that point and I see this all the time with clients who increase their steps they're like wow, I didn't know it would help me with my yeah, my BMs and my digestion, but also with my hunger signals. Awesome, so those are metabolic.

Philip Pape: 8:29

Then we have the recovery and performance benefits that I don't think get talked about enough. For example, it enhances your blood flow between your training sessions. So it can actually not only help your muscles recover and repair, but also reduces DOMS, right Delayed onset muscle soreness. It's a great way to just kind of mitigate some of the soreness that you might get, which you shouldn't always be sore, but if you're in fat loss or you're doing a new movement or certain high rep work, I get it. You could, you could be sore. Maybe a type of person that has some extra cardio in there, you might get sore. So this is helpful. It also lowers systemic inflammation, which actually supports better adaptation to training, which is more of an acute inflammation, right, like training is an inflammatory response to the muscle tearing, but we don't, which we want, but we don't want systemic inflammation, so walking actually lowers that. It also improves your sleep quality.

Philip Pape: 9:21

Okay, if you're having trouble with sleep or getting good sleep quality and you're not walking enough, adding some walks in, especially later in the day, not too late, could be helpful. See what it does for your sleep, and we know how important sleep then is for everything else Muscle growth, fat loss, you know, avoiding fat gain in your belly, all those things. And then it helps reduce your stress. Just walking itself can be stress relieving in many different ways right Walking out in nature, walking while you listen to a podcast or music, just being with your thoughts, being with people, being in the sun. But it also just naturally reduces your chronic stress physiologically and that supports better testosterone and better growth hormone production. We see how all this stuff is connected. And then the last, not last. I actually have four categories here. So the third category benefits from walking, from steps, is the fat loss support which I know a lot of you came to listen to this based on my title, but it is very helpful and it's a great incentive.

Philip Pape: 10:15

So walking creates a calorie deficit. Well, it creates a calorie deficit. If you were previously at maintenance and now you add more steps, you're obviously going to burn more calories. Something like if you add 4,000 steps a day, you might burn an extra, say, 150 calories a day. That is not nothing. That is pretty significant because that means if you were maintaining, well, now you could eat 150 more calories of food to maintain, or you can just eat the same and actually start losing you know, maybe a half a pound a week or not quite just by adding 4,000 steps a day.

Philip Pape: 10:46

Um, success studies show us that successful weight loss maintainers right, people who lose weight and fat and they maintain it. They average about 11 to 12,000 steps and again, you don't have to go that high. If you're doing a lot of other things, it's not going to be as necessary. I do like those numbers if you can get there, but we're focusing on that 8,000 step minimum today and then over a year. If you, let's say, you got 3 million steps, that is equivalent to about 120,000 calories burned right, and again, that's total. Obviously, if you're getting 4,000 steps now, and you'd go up to eight. You're getting 60,000 extra calories, not 120, but you get what I'm saying. Just do the math. So, as far as fat loss goes, those are helpful.

Philip Pape: 11:29

It also helps preserve muscle during fat loss phases because you are increasing your energy flux. You're keeping your metabolism higher than it otherwise would be, which then allows you to eat more of everything protein, carbs, everything that supports muscle and helps avoid catabolism, the breakdown of muscle. Super amazing thing that you might not be thinking about. It's like well, if I'm in the same calorie deficit, what does it matter? Well, wouldn't you rather be in the same calorie deficit with 200 more calories a day? Yes, of course you would. And finally, it supports insulin sensitivity, which we mentioned before, but that also makes your body more efficient at using nutrients, which can be helpful during fat loss. And then, finally, we have lifting-specific benefits Better joint mobility, reduced stiffness between training sessions and, by the way, the best thing you can do for your mobility and joints is lift weights.

Philip Pape: 12:19

So don't take this to mean like, oh, we're gonna walk to offset how weights hurt your joints. No, that's not the mentality. The mentality is we need to lift weights. That supports our joints, and then walking also supports our joints and helps with the blood flow, and all that. It also improves your cardiovascular function, of course, which helps with your work capacity, which helps you get through workouts and get all the reps without feeling out of breath. It gives you more stable energy levels throughout the day, partly because of the blood sugar control, and it gives you better cognitive function for focusing during intense training sessions.

Philip Pape: 12:51

And I didn't even mention the mental health benefits. I don't know why I didn't have that in my notes, but the mental health benefits of walking are also well-demonstrated and worthwhile even just for itself. I did mention stress, but anyway, now I wanna be crystal clear again Walking alone is not enough. You absolutely need to be lifting weights with progressive overload to build and maintain muscle mass. But for those of you who are already doing this, increasing daily steps is like adding fuel to the fire. It's adding a catalyst to those efforts. That's the compound effect, and I see it with clients all the time. They add more walking in and so many things start to improve, almost surprisingly, like they'll fill out their check-in form and they'll say well, you know, I just all of a sudden felt like I had a lot more energy and I was actually walking more this week. Like well, there's probably a reason for that, and so any one of these benefits might apply to you and they're worthwhile in terms of a reason to walk, all right.

Philip Pape: 13:48

So here's where we get a little bit more practical right. Just like in engineering systems, we want to calibrate based on where you are starting from and where your baseline is. So, even though 3 million steps for the year equals 8,200 steps a day, if you are currently getting 3,000 steps a day, I don't want you to try to get 8,000 steps this week. Just add 500 steps this week and then add 500 more and then keep going. Now, if you're already getting, say, 6,000 steps, well, maybe you're at the point where you can add a thousand steps this week instead of just 500. You know, it's kind of like progressive overload for walking and just gradually progress. Allow the compound effect to start working.

Philip Pape: 14:26

Don't overwhelm your schedule or your stress or your lifting or anything by feeling like this is a burden. We don't want it to be a negative. We want the walking just to be an easy little thing. They're adding in and, by the way, 500 steps, that's like a quarter mile. You can add that almost by just changing some of the way that you do normal day-to-day activities, your chores, where you park, when you go to the store, taking the stairs instead of the elevator, pacing around the house, when you're on a call, it may not even require a walk, quote unquote. But then to get more steps than that, yes, it helps to have structured walks in there. So how do we do this?

Philip Pape: 15:01

All right, step one is to get that baseline. If you don't even know what you're getting, that's step one. Track your current steps for a week or two using any old device that can do that. They're all fine. Your phone, a wearable, an expensive wearable, cheap wearable they all work and you'll get a good average right.

Philip Pape: 15:17

Some days are high, sometimes are low. Don't beat yourself up just because you had a low day, because then you might have a high day. Don't try to make it up. Just see what your average is and then, based on where you honestly are now, you can choose how you want to increase from there and set your new floor. And then make sure that you are doing this intentionally around your schedule with what's really going to happen in your life. Don't just assume you can crank up the steps without any thought, right? So that's step one. Step two is so. In other words, I want you to not feel like you're forcing yourself to do it. I want you to set up the environment to help you be successful.

Philip Pape: 16:00

Park farther from the gym or the grocery store. Take a 10-minute walk right after you train. You know, since you're already at the gym, like, just add the walk to your gym session. Think of it as a cool down, or do it before the gym session, that's fine. Think of it as a warm up. Schedule walking meetings if that's a thing you can do. Add a 10 minute walk after meals, or even a five minute walk if that's all you can do.

Philip Pape: 16:23

Here's a hack that I like Use your rest periods between your sets in the gym and just walk around. I mean, unless it's just like massively intense, like super heavy deadlifts, where you're just gassed and you need to sit, and that's better for you, unless it's that, use the periods between the sets to just get a bunch of steps. You might get two or 3,000 steps during your training session just from that. And then the final thing here is now that you've tracked your baseline, you've set a target and you've set up your environment for success is to build that feedback loop. All right, log those steps Now. Again, if you're using a phone, it does it for you pretty much. I like an app called pedometer plus plus. Uh, it's on iPhone, I don't know if it's on Android, but it's a free app. You can donate to them too, but it's free, and it has a widget for your uh what do you call a complication for your Apple watch, so that you could set a target and see how you are tracking against the target.

Philip Pape: 17:18

Another way to build a feedback loop is to join our Facebook group and share your progress. That's actually one of the most powerful ways is community support and accountability. Jump on in there, show us your pretty face, take a picture of you walking, video of you walking outside, whatever. Throw a screenshot of your GPS, track whatever floats your boat, and we'll just all jump in and give you the applause and the recognition, but also the encouragement to keep going and help with any issues along the way. Also, look at how your increased steps helps everything else.

Philip Pape: 17:52

So you should be tracking your lifting performance at a minimum. Is it helping with that? Is it helping with your heart rate? Right, you're probably tracking. That was part of your. If you have a wearable, is it helping with your sleep, with your energy, with all the? Tie them together as an incentive for why increasing your step count is so helpful. And then always celebrate achievements. So if you went from 3000 average and now you're up to 3,500 average, celebrate that. It is worth celebrating.

Philip Pape: 18:24

All right, the last fascinating kind of twist here I want you to think about with this compound effect is that it works both ways. In other words, if you make a choice to take the elevator instead of the stairs and then you keep doing that, that's going to compound over a year in the opposite direction. That's 365 opportunities. If it's every day for the effect to work either for or against you, it's like a decision tree. So it's just like how missing one workout is not going to kill your gains, but if you keep skipping sessions, it's going to cause you to detrain your daily movement. Choices accumulate into either progress or regression. So this is the year to think about which direction you want to go. The compound effect is not just a abstract principle, right, it's a fundamental law of nature. It really is. We see it everywhere and by applying it to your movement through the 3 million steps challenge. You're working with those natural laws to amplify your results instead of fight against them.

Philip Pape: 19:18

All right, join our Wits and Weights Facebook group to connect with others taking the hashtag 3 million steps 2025 challenge. You could share your progress. You could support, be part of a community that understands the power of not quick fixes, but small, consistent actions. Click the link in the show notes to join the group or search Wits and Weights on Facebook. Until next time, keep using those wits lifting some weights and Weights on Facebook. Until next time, keep using those lifting some weights and remember every step counts. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

6 Ways to Lose Fat in 2025 (Using Science-Based Methods) | Ep 266

Download my free Precision Fat Loss Guide with the 6 core fat loss strategies customized for your experience, goals, and lifestyle (or go to witsandweights.com/free)

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Struggling to shed fat without sacrificing your sanity? Why do 95% of dieters regain weight—and how can you avoid that trap? Can fat loss really be sustainable without drastic measures like cutting carbs or doing a 28-day challenge?

Philip (@witsandweights) kicks off the new year with a powerful guide to six evidence-based fat loss strategies tailored to your unique lifestyle and goals. These approaches aren’t about quick fixes but real, lasting results without misery or burnout. Learn how to pick the strategy that fits your body, goals, and life, and start 2025 with a sustainable plan you’ll stick with.

You’ll also hear why most fat loss plans fail, the role of metabolic adaptation, and the secret to flexibility in dieting that most people overlook. Download Philip’s free Precision Fat Loss Guide at witsandweights.com/free to follow along and put these strategies into action.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:03 The three main reasons diets fail
8:27 Strategy #1
10:48 Strategy #2
13:15 Strategy #3
16:50 Strategy #4
18:44 Strategy #5
21:03 Strategy #6
23:04 Understanding metabolic adaptation and its impact
27:38 How to choose the right strategy for you
30:41 Setting up calories, macros, and meal timing
37:26 The importance of maintaining strength while cutting
39:17 Why successful fat loss doesn’t require perfection
41:36 Fat loss that fits your life
42:52 Outro

Episode resources:

• Have you heard about MacroFactor’s massive $100,000 New Year's Transformation Challenge? They’ll be giving away $50,000 to a grand prize winner, and $500 to 100 more people! All you need to do to enter is download MacroFactor – use my code WITSANDWEIGHTS to get a two-week free trial – then fill out a quick form at macrofactorapp.com/challenge
  

6 Science-Based Fat Loss Strategies to Kickstart Your Success in 2025

If you’re tired of falling into the same diet traps every year and want fat loss methods that actually work, this is your year. Forget the quick fixes and unsustainable trends—2025 is all about using evidence-based strategies tailored to your goals, lifestyle, and experience.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, I break down six proven strategies for fat loss and show you how to choose the best one for your unique situation. Whether you’re just starting out, have been training for years, or want to refine your approach, these methods will help you achieve sustainable results without sacrificing your sanity—or your favorite foods.

Why Most Fat Loss Approaches Fail

Before diving into the strategies, let’s address why so many fat loss attempts fall flat:

1. One-size-fits-all plans: Most diets ignore individual differences like genetics, lifestyle, and metabolic rate.

2. Focus on short-term results: Quick fixes lead to muscle loss, hormonal imbalances, and eventual weight regain.

3. Unrealistic expectations: Many plans assume you can live like a robot, ignoring real-life challenges like social events, stress, and fluctuating schedules.

The solution? Personalization and flexibility. By choosing a strategy that fits your life, you can avoid these pitfalls and finally make progress.

The Six Science-Based Fat Loss Strategies

1. The Slow Burn

Target a gradual fat loss of 0.25–0.5% of your body weight per week.

• Best for: Beginners or those with a lot of weight to lose.

• Why it works: Preserves muscle, minimizes hunger, and allows for social flexibility.

• Example: A 200-pound person aims to lose 0.5–1 pound per week.

2. The Sweet Spot

Lose 0.5–1% of your body weight per week over 8–16 weeks.

• Best for: Those who want faster results without extreme measures.

• Why it works: Balances results and sustainability while maintaining workout performance.

• Example: A 200-pound person loses 1–2 pounds per week while staying consistent in the gym.

3. Rapid Fat Loss

Drop 1–1.5% of your body weight per week for 2–8 weeks max.

• Best for: Advanced lifters with a specific deadline, like a photo shoot or event.

• Why it works: Delivers fast results but requires precision and strict adherence.

• Caution: Should only be used as a short-term tool to avoid muscle loss and metabolic adaptation.

4. Ride the Wave

Cycle calories or carbs based on training days or social events.

• Best for: Those with irregular schedules or frequent events.

• Why it works: Reduces diet fatigue and makes the process more flexible.

• Example: Higher calorie intake on leg day, lower intake on recovery days.

5. Alternating Phases

Periodize your diet with on/off cycles, such as 2 weeks in a deficit followed by 2 weeks at maintenance.

• Best for: Advanced lifters or those with unique schedules.

• Why it works: Provides mental relief, hormonal recovery, and sustainable progress.

6. Recharge, Recomp

Focus on eating at maintenance while building muscle and losing fat slowly.

• Best for: High-stress periods or plateaus.

• Why it works: Allows for recovery, resets your metabolism, and promotes recomposition.

How to Choose Your Strategy

Picking the right strategy depends on your goals, experience, and lifestyle:

• Beginners: Stick with the Slow Burn or Sweet Spot to master the basics.

• Intermediates: Any approach except Rapid Fat Loss can work, depending on your preferences.

• Advanced lifters: Match the strategy to your specific goals, such as prep for a competition or overcoming a plateau.

Implementation Tips

1. Know Your Maintenance Calories
   Track your food intake and weight for two weeks to determine how many calories you need to maintain your weight. Apps like MacroFactor can make this process easier.

2. Set Your Deficit and Macros

• Protein: 0.7–1 gram per pound of target body weight.

• Fats: Around 30% of calories, with the rest from carbs.

• Adjust calories based on your chosen strategy.

1. Track Progress with Trends

• Focus on weekly averages for weight and other metrics, like waist measurements and progress photos.

• Don’t stress over daily fluctuations—what matters is the overall trend.

1. Prioritize Strength Training
   Maintain your regular lifting routine and push for strength gains to preserve muscle during fat loss. Avoid the myth of switching to higher reps for "fat-burning."

2. Plan for Real Life
   Incorporate flexibility with planned higher-calorie days or maintenance phases to stay consistent long-term.

The Key to Sustainable Fat Loss

Fat loss doesn’t have to be a miserable grind. By choosing a strategy that aligns with your situation and building in flexibility, you can achieve your goals while living your life. The best fat loss plan isn’t the one that promises the fastest results—it’s the one you can stick with long enough to see meaningful changes.

Send questions to @witsandweights

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're already dreading another year of frustrating fat loss attempts, wasting time with those popular diets that don't work for your lifestyle and genetics, or feeling overwhelmed by all the nutrition advice out there and not sure what actually works, this episode is for you. Today, I'm breaking down six science-backed strategies for fat loss that you can implement this year, based on your unique situation, your experience, level, goals, lifestyle. I'll show you how to choose the method that will work best for you and the exact steps to put it into action. And the best part is you don't have to do anything extreme. A 28-day challenge, start fasting or cut out food groups these are approaches that fit you like a glove, so you can stick with them long enough to lose fat without being miserable. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are kicking off 2025 by breaking down six proven strategies for fat loss that align with your individual needs, and that is the key differentiator. The timing of this episode is intentional, because January is not just about New Year's resolutions. It's about starting the year with the right tools and knowledge to make sustainable changes, whether you have a resolution or just want to follow the process and get the result, and that is what we're covering today. Now, before we get into those strategies, I want to let you know that I've created a free guide called Precision Fat Loss that complements today's episode perfectly. It gives you a targeted plan including all six core strategies that we're discussing. It gives you detailed guidance on choosing the right one for you and the steps to implement your strategy properly. You can get your free copy at witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in the show notes, and it's a great companion to follow along with this episode.

Philip Pape: 2:06

Now, my goal, as always, is to live up to what you're asking for as the listener or the viewer, so I wanted to share some recent five-star reviews that explain what we're about much better than I can, and I'm going to start with a review from RNK. Great stuff. Philip delivers interesting insights in a polished way. I love the analytical approach to health. He kept me engaged throughout the episode. The next review is from Brad Kearns, who, by the way, is going to be on the show soon. Really well-informed and interesting. Philip does a fantastic job, covering the most interesting and important topics, including scientific research into easily understandable and actionable tips for healthy living and especially getting fit and strong for a lifetime. And then we have LadyLifter07. I love that. Handle Best nutrition podcast. Real advice for real people. Always look forward to the next episode. I should use that as my tagline going forward Real advice for real people.

Philip Pape: 3:03

All right, let's start by addressing why most fat loss approaches fail. We've got to understand what the heck is going on in the world where so many people they lose weight and then they gain it back, and even when they lose weight, they lose muscle and they don't understand how to do this, despite tons and tons of information. And there are three core issues that I see all the time, especially with clients, and this is why they tend to seek me out and reach out and say, hey, I need help with this. The first core issue of the three is fat loss approaches usually treat everyone the same. They completely ignore individual differences. Now, I'm not talking about just general personalization. I'm talking about the vastly different genetics and lifestyles and goals that people have. And yet we lump fat loss all into one big giant category. For example, you've got people with different metabolic rates, just genetically and also based on their history. Some of you can eat 3,000 calories, maintain your weight. Others maintain it 2,000 or far less. That's the first issue. Then there's the recovery ability, and this is important for fat loss. When you're training five days a week, six days a week and you can't recover, that's going to add stress during fat loss, and you know some people need more rest, some people need more rest. Your lifestyle demands and your stress levels play a huge role. You know A busy executive with three kids is going to need a very different approach than someone with more flexibility in their schedule. And then the training experience and the muscle mass you already have. These are all factors that dramatically influence how your body responds to a calorie deficit. So that's the first core issue.

Philip Pape: 4:43

The second core issue is that traditional approaches focus on short-term results. You hear me talk about this a lot. I think it's worth harping on the fact that 99% of diets out there are trying to get you a quick fix, whether it's the crash diets, whether it's the detoxes, whether it's programs like Weight Watchers or Optivea, whether it's the weight loss drugs and again, I'm not bashing on those drugs for people who need it. I'm just saying the marketing of that is promising rapid weight loss, even if it's ostensibly for a health issue, you'll still see like such and such achieved, you know, 45 pounds of weight loss. But what actually happens to the vast majority of people doing this when you're losing weight so quickly is, yeah, your hormones get completely out of whack. We know that happens Metabolic adaptation. I'll address that later. But worse for most people is they're losing muscle. They get ravenously hungry, they're cutting food so they want to binge on those foods again and they gain it all back. We're talking 95% of people gain it back within five years and oftentimes because you have less muscle, you're now going to have more fat than you had before, even at the same weight, and a lot of you are gaining even more weight than that. So the body fatness just keeps to creep up over the years.

Philip Pape: 5:54

There's zero consideration in these approaches for building the habits that take you through all the different phases of life and through training and not losing muscle, the importance of maintenance, the importance of building and losing fat. It's all about the quick fix and that's the problem. The third problem is the approaches don't account for real life. A lot of them claim to be personalized, but by that they usually mean oh, we're going to take your gender and your genetics, or we're going to take your gender and your height and weight and a few other factors, and that's what we mean by personalization. No, what I'm talking about is the very significant differences between how people live and who they live with, and where they live and what their job is, and so on.

Philip Pape: 6:41

And the existing approaches assume you're going to be this perfect dieting robot who never has social events. You never travel, you never. You know you have perfect stress levels. You get eight hours of sleep every night. Come on, like, when does that ever happen? Ever, ever, ever, except maybe maybe a 20 year old or something with, like, no stress in their life. No, your work stress fluctuates. Your training intensity varies week to week. You've got family obligations that pop up. A sustainable approach has to account for all of that. It can't be the other way around. We can't say, well, you need to just get rid of all that. Like, you're not working hard enough. You need to double down and like, be disciplined. No, no, come on, this is reality, so work with me here, all right.

Philip Pape: 7:28

So I want to now dig into the six evidence-based strategies that I've developed over the years with clients, and when I say I've developed, there's nothing new under the sun here. I'm just going to be totally honest. What I've done is taken, everything that I've worked with over the last three years myself, clients, this podcast and for 2025, I smushed it all together into a very simple, understandable set of six strategies, all right, and I'm going to split them into three and three and then talk about how to which ones to pick, based on you. So let's build this piece by piece. I'm going to start with a foundational approach and then go to the advanced methods. Think of it like a pyramid, where you want to master the basics before moving to the complex stuff. And, by the way, the Precision Fat Loss Guide if you download it, it will tell you with a check mark or an X whether each plan is good for you, based on all the different situations that you could be in, so you can immediately rule out things that I would not recommend for you right now. So, strategy number one of the six here we go. Here we go.

Philip Pape: 8:25

I don't know how long this episode is going to be. I call it the slow burn. You're targeting a loss of around a quarter to half percent of your body weight a week, which is quite reasonable and conservative, and you're doing it over anywhere from 12 to 20 or more weeks. I mean you could conceivably do it forever. I would never do a fat loss phase like that, but if you have like 300 pounds to lose, this could be the one that you want to go with, you know, in segments, over time.

Philip Pape: 8:54

Now I know it doesn't sound sexy, right, this is not a quick fix thing we're talking about. This is about a half a pound a week for a 200 pound person, but here's why it's so powerful. First, you are going to maintain almost all your muscle mass Like. That solves that problem right off the bat. When you're only dropping weight this slowly, your body has time to preserve that precious muscle tissue. Compare this to crash dieting, whether it's done on purpose or because you're on a weight loss drug GLP-1, you know, semaglutide, terzapatide, et cetera where you might sacrifice a decent amount of muscle as much as five to 10 pounds of muscle just to see the scale move faster.

Philip Pape: 9:39

The second thing is this approach has the highest adherence rate. Okay, I've seen this with client and it just makes mathematical sense. Why? Because you're not walking around starving all the time you can eat enough to fuel your workouts, to maintain your energy, to enjoy your food, and that's why I really like the slow burn. For a lot of people, again, you got to get out of the quick fix mentality and think I want to get the result. Yeah, but I actually want to keep the result and do it in a sustainable way. And, speaking of sustainability, it's perfect for that.

Philip Pape: 10:10

This is the third reason I love it so much. You've got enough mental bandwidth to focus on things like eating your protein, your meal prep, recovering from your workouts, your training, and you're not just white knuckling through hunger, right, you get the mental capacity to focus on the process and the habits. And then, finally, there's a lot of room for social flexibility. If you have a wedding, a holiday party, if you like to go out a lot, whatever it is, one higher calorie day isn't going to really do anything. It's not going to derail anything. It's going to be a blip because we're not talking about having a very aggressive deficit. You're always not that far from maintenance anyway and you're just doing the slow burn. So that's strategy number one.

Philip Pape: 10:47

Strategy number two this is the sweet spot and this is where you're targeting around a half to 1% of your body weight loss per week over about eight to 16 weeks. All right, this is actually my go-to approach for many clients because it perfectly balances the results with the sustainability. So it gets you there faster. And again, I can't discount the fact we do want to get there in a reasonable amount of time, right, or else we get impatient or we get mentally fatigued. So I understand speed is a factor, right, just not going too fast. And then the faster we go, the shorter the duration we can handle. So this is the sweet spot half to 1% loss per week over eight to 16 weeks. And so when you're losing about a pound a week for someone weighing 200 pounds, do easy math.

Philip Pape: 11:39

You can see meaningful changes in the mirror while still having enough calories to maintain the quality of your training, and I think that's really important. I think the quality and ability to perform in the gym is like half the equation when it comes to fat loss. All right, you're not going to feel like you're dragging yourself through your workouts and the psychological impact is also moderate. It's more than the slow burn, but it's still moderate Meaning. Yeah, you're going to feel like you're dieting. You're going to have a little bit of hunger, but it's not overwhelming. You can still think clearly at work. You can still engage people with people socially. You can still maintain your relationships. It's not some extreme like, say, a physique competitor would do, and I can't tell you how many clients appreciate this balance. And, by the way, the reason I use this and not the slow burn with most clients is because they have my support there to know that they can fall and they can trip a little bit along the way, but I'm gonna keep them going, I'm gonna be there for them and they'll learn the skills that they need faster because they're working with me to get there.

Philip Pape: 12:42

But you can definitely do this part on your own if you've got the right plan and the right approach. Now what's really nice about this is you have room for again some occasional higher calorie days, even if they're not planned in, even if they're not refeeds. Maybe you're going out to dinner with friends, maybe you've got a birthday coming up. You can just plan around the events for the week and not feel like you're really going way off, like oh my goodness, I'm just gonna wipe out my whole week's progress with this one thing. No, you can shift things a little bit and you've got some still plenty of flexibility. So that's the sweet spot.

Philip Pape: 13:15

So strategy number three Now this is rapid fat loss. Okay, so you'll notice strategies one, two, three are really different buckets of speed. And before we get to the advanced ones, this is rapid fat loss. Now I have to be very clear here. This is like a precision tool that should only be used in very specific situations. We are talking about losing one to one and a half percent of your body weight over a very short timeframe two to eight weeks max. And by eight weeks I mean like you really better have a lot of muscle mass and some decent weight to lose and be everything dialed in. I would say it's more like four weeks is where I've seen this happen, and if you've ever heard me talk about rates of loss over 1% is where you're starting to risk a little bit of muscle loss. That's why we keep the duration very short. The main benefit here is you guessed it speed, speed.

Philip Pape: 14:12

So if you do have a specific deadline, like a photo shoot or a wedding or a competition or that thing on the beach, right, for me it might be my upcoming. You know, we're going to Florida to Disney, we're going to visit my parents, we're going to go to the pool hey, I want to feel confident at the pool, that's all. So maybe I'm going to fit in a little rapid fat loss phase in the six weeks leading up to that point. This can definitely get you there, but you need to know exactly what you're doing with your training and nutrition Now, having this clear end point, like knowing it's going to end, and it's going to end pretty soon, that does help reduce mental fatigue because you know exactly when you'll be done right, and this isn't something you want to do indefinitely. And if you come to me and say, hey, philip, I did your rapid fat loss phase and I want to keep going, what do I do? I'm going to say don't keep going, that's ridiculous. You're just going to start losing muscle mass, your hormones are going to go crazy, you're going to feel terrible and it's going to end up backfiring. Just don't do it right, don't push it. But if you want to, if you're in the middle of a year or two year long building phase and you're like, hey, I just want to shed some fat really quickly in six or eight weeks Again, not a quick fix, this is a controlled high protein, almost like a protein sparing, modified fast.

Philip Pape: 15:22

If you've heard of that. It's very similar to that, but there's refeeds built in. There's a strategy to this and I wasn't going to mention this, but I do have a specific guide called Rapid Fat Loss. If you go to winstowheightscom, slash free, I'm not going to link it in the show notes, I'd rather you get the main precision fat loss guide and then you can like jump from there. But the key here is that short and also you have strategic refeeds and this is usually one day a week after about four days. So four days, very aggressive, and then one day of a refeed where you bump up your calories, mostly from carbs, right up to maintenance, and that's to. It's really to kind of just give you the mental break. It does help maintain some of your performance as well if timed appropriately, but it's mainly the mental break and the quick little jolt of recovery so you can keep going. So those are the three, I'll say, foundational strategies for fat loss.

Philip Pape: 16:18

And now I want to get to the three advanced approaches, and what you're going to find is that these advanced approaches are more about timing and other variables and you could in a way, combine them with the first three. Right, so you can. I would start with one of the first three and then look at the last three to decide okay, do I need to really change the timing significantly based on my life? And that's why you need the guide that I'm sharing, because it tells you later on, based on your situation, if this is appropriate. Okay. Strategy four, then, is called ride the wave. Yeah, I've got some silly names here. Okay, ride the wave.

Philip Pape: 16:56

And this is where things get interesting, because, instead of trying to hit the same calorie target every day which, again, I would recommend for most people to start out you are intentionally varying your intake throughout the week or month, and you've probably heard of carb cycling, calorie cycling. A lot of these strategies are going to be related to that. This approach is fantastic for people who have regular interruptions, regular social events. Maybe you would always go out on Saturdays Great. We plan to hire calories on those days and then we pull back a bit during the week, and the beauty of this strategy is how it reduces diet fatigue and even the fear that you're constantly failing. Even if you're not failing, you know, there's the mental side of oh, I went over again. I went over again. You're not constantly grinding away every day at the same calories that might feel restrictive to you. You've got those higher days to look forward to, right? Not cheat days, but they're planned days where you up the carbs and they're planned in, and this makes the whole process itself again more sustainable for people who have these regular interruptions.

Philip Pape: 18:00

Now, one of my favorite applications is structuring this around training. Right, we got to be careful, though this is where classic calorie cycling comes in, or carb cycling where, all right, you've got a big leg day, we're going to bump up our calories and carbs on those days. On recovery days, we pull back a bit. The caveat is for some people, this backfires because they need more days. We pull back a bit. The caveat is for some people, this backfires because they need more. They need just as many calories on recovery days to feel like they're bringing it back from the fold as they head into the next training day. And it also depends on your training schedule, what time of the day you train, and on and on right. So, again, this is just an example, but ride the wave is essentially what it sounds like. It's you riding the wave of your life, of your week, of your months, of your seasons.

Philip Pape: 18:43

Strategy number five All right, this is called alternating phases and I'll say that this takes the ride, the wave concept, to the next level in which you have a periodized on off. That on-off can be any length, so you might do two weeks of aggressive dieting followed by two weeks of maintenance, and this is especially powerful for advanced lifters, for example, who really understand their bodies, or sometimes women, to line it up with their menstrual cycles, which again, don't just start there, because, for I would say, 90% of women, they don't need to do that, but there's a small subset who it could help. It also might line up with your work schedule, your shift schedule. You know, I have a client who's a I think they call it a magistrate because it's not in the US but she has like intense, like a few intense months where she can't get much sleep, and then a few intense, a few months of total time to do whatever she wants, almost Right. And that's where you can line up the dieting across a month on, month off, two months on, two months off, very much like this stair step approach that I mentioned quite a few episodes ago. You can go, look it up my stair step fat loss process of okay, I'm going to diet for a while and then I'm going to stop, and then I'm going to go on and then I'm going to stop, right.

Philip Pape: 20:06

It's just an overarching alternating phase approach and the mental relief during those maintenance phases can be massive. It could be the exact thing you need just to hold steady, get recovered, eat more food, feel more energized, give your body a break from the stress of dieting. Your hormones get a chance to recover if it's long enough during those phases. Leptin, thyroid, testosterone they all drop during extended dieting and they come back fairly quickly, but not like in a day. So when you alternate, say two weeks on two weeks off or a month on a month off, it can be an interesting way to manipulate that situation. You are not, I repeat, you are not just artificially increasing your metabolism that is bogus BS, myth stuff but you are getting a massive break and things recover to the point where, physically and mentally, you're ready to go for the next phase, which means you're going to stick with it. It's going to be sustainable. Hugely helpful for that.

Philip Pape: 21:02

And then number six strategy. Number six is what I call the recharge, recomp. And again, I don't get any awards for these names. I like alliteration, let's just put it that way Recharge, recomp. So recomp, as in recomposition, where you build muscle and lose fat at the same time, this is technically not even a fat loss phase. You are eating at maintenance while focusing on getting your act together with your training and with your recovery, and this works incredibly well between more focused fat loss phases or if you've got a high stress period.

Philip Pape: 21:39

So the reason I include this as its own strategy is to sort of give yourself the permission to drop this in when you need it. Maybe you didn't plan out alternating phases, maybe you're doing the same calories every day for weeks on end and all of a sudden you're like something is not working, or I'm hitting a plateau, or I'm just not feeling it. I don't want to be dieting, or this thing has come up in my life and I want to take the opportunity for the next month to focus on that. Drop this in. Think of it as a fat loss phase within your overall fat loss approach. It's kind of a mental switch, a flip the script, if you will. You're recharging and you're re-comping. You're trying to still lose a little fat slowly and you might even gain some muscle where you weren't necessarily gaining during fat loss, but you're not ready to push it to a building phase yet or come out of your fat loss phase. You still have more to go, so to speak. So the recharge, re-comp this is its own special strategy that can fit wherever you want or need it. So those are the six strategies and I believe, having gone through this and created this guide in today's episode, this covers the vast majority, if not all cases you could possibly think of, because you can combine these as well.

Philip Pape: 22:49

So the next thing I want to talk about is how your metabolism adapts during fat loss, because this is going to influence which strategy will work best for you, in addition to the other things that we'll get to later. So I want to talk about the three types of metabolic adaptation that happen when you diet, because this is highly misunderstood. So this is when your hormones start to downregulate Things like thyroid, testosterone, leptin. They all decrease and this is your body's way of trying to conserve energy.

Philip Pape: 23:22

Some people have used the term starvation mode, and I don't like that so much, but I get where they're going. It's your body clamping down. It has a built-in preservation system that says, hey, food seems scarce, energy's not coming in, let's slow everything down, right? That's one thing. Then there's the reduction in your daily energy expenditure from the things you may not even notice. You might not even notice that you're not fidgeting as much. You're taking the elevator instead of the stairs, like you just get a little slower and sluggish and, unconsciously or not, decide to not move as often, or maybe you're going to park closer to the store. But not only that your body gets more efficient with movement, which sounds great, but it actually means you're burning fewer calories doing the same activities. So all of this comes into play.

Philip Pape: 24:07

And then the third type of adaptation is probably the most noticeable, and that is the increased hunger signaling that comes along for the ride. And that is because your hunger hormones, like ghrelin they, go up, while the fullness signals leptin we talked about decrease. And so it's not about willpower. This is your body actively fighting against fat loss, and this is why it matters for choosing one of the strategies we talked about, because the more aggressive your approach, the faster these adaptations kick in. And I didn't even talk about the adaptation that occurs because you just weigh less. Right, by carrying around less body weight, you're going to burn fewer calories. Yes, I don't think of that as a metabolic adaptation so much as just pure math based on body mass, right. So if you go with something like rapid fat loss, let's say, all right, you might see these changes I just talked about. These adaptations occur within days.

Philip Pape: 25:00

When we did our challenge for this, probably more than a year ago, I recruited some folks in the community and we all did it together. I saw people's expenditures drop pretty quickly. Now you couldn't tell in the data until days later, or even a few weeks later, because we use averages and trends, but you can tell in retrospect that it dropped a lot faster than it would normally. With the slow burn approach, on the other hand, right strategy one, these are going to happen much more gradually, and then it gives you time to adjust to them. This is where this personal metabolic resilience comes in.

Philip Pape: 25:35

I think this is something that a lot of people overlook. This is your dieting history and your history of yo-yo dieting how often you've dieted in the past. That history is going to play a huge role today. I'm sorry to say it, if you've done a lot of crash dieting in the past, your metabolism might be a little more sensitive to calorie restriction, and we don't entirely always know why this is, and it's not necessarily a massive difference.

Philip Pape: 26:01

For a lot of people, it's just because you have less muscle mass, right, which means, on the other hand, if you spent good time at maintenance and building muscle and not dieting as much, you might be able to handle more aggressive approaches better. But at the end of the day, this just comes down to the fact that you have a higher metabolic rate, and some of you are blessed with that. Some of you are not. The genetics make a difference, and on and on and on. That's why personalizing these strategies are helpful, and when we come back after the break, I'm going to help you choose the best strategy for you and then implement it. Plus, I'm going to reveal the surprising truth about adherence that changes how you think about good and bad days in your diet. And then I'm going to reveal one thing that all successful people do to stick with their fat loss plan and actually get the result they want. Stay with me.

Max: 26:47

Shout out to Philippe. I know Philippe for a long time. I know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength, and that's why I chose him to be my coach. I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably. Philip helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations, while not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy, but now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently but, most importantly, I do it sustainably. If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a lean, strong body is what you're looking for, philly Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape: 27:31

Welcome back Now. I'm going to walk you through exactly how to pick the right strategy based on where you're at right now. If you are a beginner, stick with the slow burn or the sweet spot period. I just simplified the whole thing for you. Forget the rest. Forget number three, four, five, six. Pick number one or two. You need to build those fundamental habits. First, consistent protein intake, regular training, proper recovery. It's like if you learn to drive, you wouldn't start on a Formula One racetrack.

Philip Pape: 28:02

Intermediate folks now, by intermediate that's a very flexible term, but to me that's someone who has some experience training and maybe some experience dieting, but not necessarily In that case you can use any approach, except rapid fat loss is what I'm going to say. So approaches one, two, four, five, six. Because you understand how your body responds to different calorie levels and training intensities. You've got some experience reading your body's signals. So again, even if you haven't, like expressly gone through these types of highly targeted track fat loss phases, you still probably have experience from dieting in general and kind of understanding how your body reacts. But just make sure you truly feel like you have that experience. Otherwise, if you're like this all is new to me consider yourself a beginner, even if you're a more experienced trainer. So that's kind of what I mean is the experience with the dieting and the training together. Now, if you're more advanced, if you've gone through bulks and cuts, you've trained for a while, you're an athlete, et cetera you can use any strategy, but you still have to match it to your goals, right? So if you're prepping for a show, yeah, maybe rapid fat loss makes sense and maybe not, right? I know I talk to a lot of bodybuilders and they actually want to take time to get there and cut over time. Maybe you have some other event or date on the calendar where rapid fat loss makes sense. If you're in a high stress period, maybe that's where you want to drop in one of these recharge, recomp periods and just say, look, I'm not going to give up on fat loss, but I know that it doesn't make sense for me to be in a calorie deficit right now, but I'm going to put it on hold and continue later. But I'm going to still focus on doing all the right things keeping it sustainable, recharging and recovering my metabolism so I stop under eating and then maybe get some recomp as a side benefit. So, other than that, there are multiple other scenarios in the guide itself.

Philip Pape: 29:58

I didn't want this podcast to be three hours long, but there are, I think, four tables for four different types of tendencies or things to think about. There's a table on personal tendencies Do you love tracking, for example and so I want you to go through the guide yourself and just look at each one and say, okay, I'm that person. Here are the things yes, yes, no, no. That could work for me. So what I really want to do today is get to how to implement this. So, once you've picked the strategy, okay. So I gave you the six strategies, I gave you some thoughts on personalization, but definitely get the guide to get all the details, and then now we're going to talk about implementing at a very high level.

Philip Pape: 30:40

All right, the first thing you have to do to implement a fat loss phase is you've got to know your numbers, and the best, the first number you have to know is your maintenance calories. Your maintenance calories are the calories you burn every day. The best approach is to track your food and your weight for at least two weeks and see how your weight responds to your food. That is the only accurate way to do it. First start, but they can be off by hundreds of calories. I think I used to say 400 calories in either direction and I heard someone recently say a 700 calorie swing, so I think it's the same idea. I don't know if they meant 700 either direction or just 700 total, like you could be up and down 350, but it's insanely inaccurate. Your true maintenance calories are probably going to surprise you, because I've had clients who thought they maintained at 1800 and then we get them eating more and recovering and they're actually closer to 2500. And I'll be honest, there's some that are the opposite. They're like yeah, I should be burning 2000, but I'm not losing weight. Well, it's because you actually burned 1600. So the only way to do that is to track your food and weight.

Philip Pape: 31:52

And if you want an app that will do that for you so you don't have to pull out a complicated spreadsheet, download Macrofactor, use my code Wits and Weights. All one word. Yes, this is a plug, but it's a plug for my favorite app. I use it, my clients use it, I talk about it all the time because it's the only app that calculates your maintenance calories accurately and that's what you need to get the targets. Forget the other apps MyFitnessPal, chronometer and so on. They don't do that, so all they are are glorified loggers. They allow you to log food and then they're like tell us what your targets are. I'm like I don't know what my target is. Well, macrofactor gives you the target. Every week you check in, it gives you a new target based on how your and your weight. So you've got to start with that number, because that's the number you would eat to maintain your weight.

Philip Pape: 32:46

And if you're not even eating enough to maintain your weight, that's a whole separate process. Okay, I talked about on the last episode, the last Monday episode, about the 12 month plan. I talked about this recomp phase. Not even talking about that. Today I'm jumping right to the fat loss phase. Once you've done all that setup, you've got your routine in place, and so on. Okay, so if you don't even know all the things you need to do to set yourself up for success in fat loss, go listen to that episode. See episode 260, oh, it was before the new, it was before the replays that came out. Go look for it. It says 12-month plan for your best physique in 2025, something like that. I'll include a link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 33:27

Once you have your maintenance calories, then what do you do next for macros? Get this question all the time. We're gonna set our protein next. We're gonna aim for 0.7 to 1 gram per pound, and you can convert to kilograms if you want. 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of your target body weight. So if you're 220 pounds, you're trying to get to 180, you're trying to lose 40 pounds, doesn't matter. Use 180 as your protein target max. So 0.7 of that to 1 times that, right. So what would 0.7 be? It'd be something like 150 or something. So you'd be around 150 to 180 grams of protein. Okay, don't. If it seems like too much, like way too much, bring it down toward that 0.7. You don't have to go to the one and, by the way, there's no benefit to going beyond that, whether you're in a cut or not, other than the tiny situation of the rapid fat loss phase where you might need to crank it up just a little bit. But even getting to that one is probably enough, even during that.

Philip Pape: 34:26

Now, so you've got your calories, you've got your maintenance calories, you've got your protein. Now those maintenance calories are going to drop to the real target. You need to lose fat, right, and that's going to be based on the strategy you picked from what we talked about earlier. So let's say we're using the sweet spot at a half to 1% of your body weight a week, and so that's going to be about a 500 calorie daily deficit for a 200 pound person. Again, we're not going to do all the math on the show here, but that's what it comes out to be and you can adjust it as you go, like if that's too aggressive, not aggressive enough, you can always adjust it as you go. So once you have that deficit, now you've got your protein, the protein calories will be taking up some of those calories. Then fats and carbs are very flexible, and that's all I'm going to say about fats and carbs. Basically, if you set fats to around 30% of your calories and carbs the rest, that's a good starting point.

Philip Pape: 35:21

Some of you may want a lot less fat, some of you a lot more. I definitely have heard that people on GLP-1 drugs, for example, like semaglutide and trisepatide, do better with lower fat. Just something happens where they have to go to the bathroom or they eat too much fat. So you personally may have different preferences and those preferences shouldn't be based on what someone said about keto or low carb or anything like that. It should be based on how you respond to the fat and carb levels with your energy, with your performance, with your recovery, with your preferences. All of that, all right. And then you want to track all of this. Now, again, if you get macro factor, you can track your food and get your targets based on your real results. But you could use a notebook, you can use a spreadsheet A million ways to do this. All right.

Philip Pape: 36:07

So we've got our calories, we've got our deficit, so it brings the calories down. We anchored our protein and then filled in the rest with fats and carbs. And then a much less concerned, but still has a little bit of importance, is your meal timing. So people are like, okay, now, when do I eat? What do I eat? How do I do this? My main recommendation here is to plan a decent amount of protein and carbs around your training, whether that's in the evening, whether that's in the morning. So if you lift in the evening, you can have more calories later in the day. If you're in the morning, you're going to have more in the morning. Pre-workout, post-workout, and then just keep things balanced as the day goes on. So keep the fats low pre-workout, but other than that, keep everything balanced. Also, don't train fasted, don't go low carb before your workout, just have some protein and carbs before and after. Other situations like low carb, keto, et cetera. Yeah, you're going to have to make adjustments if you want to follow those protocols For the training itself, the goal here is to maintain your strength.

Philip Pape: 37:05

That is absolutely the goal. To maintain your strength, to maintain your numbers. If not, push your numbers higher where possible during fat loss. A lot of people make the mistake of dropping their weight and going higher reps when cutting, thinking it's some sort of fat-burning, you know whatever. A fat loss style workout, endurance, cardio, things like that no, keep pushing the heavy compounds, the heavy lifts, the typical types of training, to give yourself that signal, to preserve muscle.

Philip Pape: 37:33

And then you want to track things to let you know that you are making progress right, not just your scale, weight and your calories and your metabolism, but also the trend in all of those your progress photos, your training performance, your body measurements. I like your waist, especially as a great indicator of fat loss for most people. A great indicator of fat loss for most people. Obviously, progress photos. You're not going to see a lot of change from one week to the next, but if you take it every week, then four, five, six weeks apart you can start seeing changes and that validates that, hey, what I'm doing is actually working. And then just the fact that you are adhering to this process and to those targets, that you are doing something every day For many of us, that is okay. We're logging in macro factor every day. We're putting our trend weight in every day. We're logging our workouts every time we go.

Philip Pape: 38:20

I've had some calls with folks and I asked them how do you track your workouts? They're like yeah, I don't really track them. Okay, it's like calculus then and advanced math to be able to remember every PR from the 20 lifts you just did last week. Impossible, not going to happen. You got to track. Now what most people miss is they get obsessed over the individual data points, and we don't want to do that. We want to look at trends, not data points. We want to have the data points when we look at trends.

Philip Pape: 38:48

One higher scale weight during fat loss means absolutely nothing. For you to gain a pound of fat in one day means you would over consume by 3,500 calories. Well, if you ate roughly the same you did every day before that in that week, and then you gain two pounds. It's not fat, it's water weight, it's glycogen inflammation. There's a whole bunch of reasons that have nothing to do with fat. It's probably going to come right back down, and so what matters is the averages over time. All right, so here's something fascinating Most people don't realize about successful fat loss.

Philip Pape: 39:22

The most successful clients I've had are not the ones that follow the plan perfectly. You're like what Don't you give them a plan and you give them accountability and support, check-ins, and that you're saying they don't follow the plan? No, I'm saying they don't follow it perfectly. They are the ones. The successful ones are the ones who build in the strategic flexibility from the start. I help them do that, I help them identify how to do that, but they understand right from day one that this is not a game of a perfect plan and perfect execution. This is a game of real life, and so let's account for that right.

Philip Pape: 40:03

Think about this If you're doing the slow burn approach and you you're losing a half a percent per week, you can have an entire week where you maintain weight or even gain a little weight and still average out to your target over a month, right, and this, this changes how you think about progress. It also takes enormous pressure off of you, right. It reduces stress, it takes off pressure off a single day or even a single week. And as far as being a coach, I can definitely help people process those thoughts, those emotions, those fears, to realize that that's the case, right, because we can't always see inside ourselves. We get in our own heads. And what's better than that? Even than that, um, the way you think about progress is that your body can respond really well to the consistent variation you give it because it's in this low stress way. In other words, you're planning it in. You avoid extremes like even the ride, the wave and the alternate phase.

Philip Pape: 40:56

Approach, I'm not approach. If I sat down with you and we mapped that out, I wouldn't have like a thousand calorie difference one day to the next. It would still be within spitting distance, so that your body feels assured and safe, let's say, to lose fat. But then it reduces the overall stress on you, which helps with your metabolism because you're planning it in and giving yourself the chance to succeed, and then your metabolism is maybe firing a little bit higher, burning a few more calories as a result, and then it makes the fat loss easier. So the fact that you've built in sustainability, you've slowed yourself down, will probably help you speed up the whole process at the end. Isn't that cool, all right.

Philip Pape: 41:36

As we wrap up, let me emphasize something really important, and that is fat loss does not have to be a miserable grind. It doesn't okay. There's going to be some hunger and some challenges. Absolutely and too many people think suffering equals progress. It's not true. If you can choose a strategy aligned to your situation and then implement it properly with flexibility, you can achieve the results and live your life. They are not mutually exclusive, and that's the way I love to do it, and that's why, once you do that a few times, you realize yeah, it's not so hard. I actually got this, I have the confidence to do this and I don't have to do it too often throughout the year. If you go back and listen to my 12 month episode, you'll understand that I want you to spend probably nine months out of the year not dieting, but when you do have to go after it, you're going to do it just like this, with precision.

Philip Pape: 42:24

All right, if you want to implement these strategies properly. Download my free Precision Fat Loss Guide. Again, it includes the detailed breakdowns of all six strategies, a decision matrix to help you choose the right one, and then some step-by-step implementation guidelines. Use the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free, where I have a ton of guides, by the way, but for this specific one it's called Precision Fat Loss Link is in the show notes, or go to witsandweightscom slash free. All right, until next time. I hope you guys love this one. This was actually a fun one to put together and I hope it kind of maps out my overall thoughts on fat loss in general. Until next time, I want you to keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember the best fat loss strategy isn't the one that works fastest, it's the one you can stick with long enough to actually work. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights and I will talk to you next time.

Why Stress & Cortisol Are Destroying Your Fat Loss and What to Do About It (Molly McNamee) | Ep 265

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Why does your body hold onto fat even when you’re training hard and eating right? Could chronic stress be sabotaging your metabolism, sleep, and recovery? How can small, manageable habits drastically change your stress levels and fitness results?

Philip (@witsandweights) is joined by stress expert and fitness coach Molly McNamee. Together, they unpack the science of chronic stress, its impact on your hormones, metabolism, and body composition, and the small but powerful lifestyle shifts you can make to feel and look your best.

Molly McNamee is a fitness coach specializing in stress management and its connection to body composition. With years of experience in understanding the interplay between chronic stress, the nervous system, and fitness goals, Molly provides evidence-based strategies for restoring balance and achieving results.

If you’re stuck in a plateau, feeling burnt out, or just want to optimize your fitness journey, this is your blueprint.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:15 Stress isn’t all bad: The case for balance
05:41 How chronic stress disrupts fat loss and recovery
12:14 Understanding exercise stress and cortisol
18:34 High-intensity training and your stress response
20:42 Small habits for stress resilience
26:37 Understanding stress and diet effects
31:06 Stress management through routines and play
40:17 Reframing negative self-talk and using your name
44:51 The power of small pauses
50:38 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download Molly’s free Conquer Your Cortisol ebook

• Instagram:  @mfit.workouts
  

How Stress and Cortisol Impact Fat Loss and What to Do About It

If you’ve been pushing yourself in the gym, tracking your food meticulously, and still not seeing fat loss results, stress might be the missing piece of the puzzle. Chronic stress can wreak havoc on your metabolism, disrupt your sleep, and leave you spinning your wheels no matter how dialed in your fitness routine seems.

In this episode of Wits & Weights, I sat down with Molly McNamee to break down the science behind stress, cortisol, and how they impact fat loss. We also explored actionable ways to manage stress without turning your life upside down.

The Role of Stress in Fat Loss

Stress is a natural part of life, and in small doses, it can actually help you perform better. Whether it’s powering through a big presentation or setting a new PR in the gym, short bursts of stress can drive results. But when stress becomes chronic, it’s a different story.

Your body’s stress response, also known as the fight-or-flight mechanism, can lead to:

• Increased fat storage (especially around the belly).

• Decreased metabolic rate.

• Poor digestion and nutrient absorption.

• Interrupted sleep and recovery.

Understanding these effects is key to breaking through fat loss plateaus and optimizing your results.

What Is Cortisol and Why It Matters

Cortisol is a hormone released during stress that helps regulate energy, metabolism, and other essential processes. While cortisol gets a bad rap, it’s not inherently harmful. The issue arises when chronic stress keeps cortisol elevated for too long.

High cortisol levels can lead to:

• Difficulty losing fat despite being in a calorie deficit.

• Loss of muscle due to impaired repair and protein synthesis.

• Constant fatigue and poor energy levels.

It’s important to focus on the root cause of elevated cortisol—chronic stress—rather than the hormone itself.

The Connection Between Stress, Training, and Results

Exercise is a stressor, and not all stress is bad. However, the type, intensity, and frequency of your workouts can either help or hurt your stress levels.

• High-intensity training: Powerlifting, HIIT, and long-duration cardio can spike cortisol, especially if you’re already dealing with chronic stress.

• Low-intensity movement: Activities like walking, yoga, or mobility work activate your parasympathetic nervous system, promoting relaxation and recovery.

Balancing your training intensity with restorative activities is critical for stress management and sustainable progress.

Signs That Stress Is Stalling Your Fat Loss

Not sure if stress is the issue? Pay attention to these signs:

• Poor sleep or difficulty staying asleep.

• Constant cravings for sugary or high-fat foods.

• Feeling rundown or unable to recover from workouts.

• Digestion issues, including bloating or irregularity.

• Fatigue or lack of motivation.

If any of these resonate, it’s time to address your stress head-on.

Practical Ways to Manage Stress

1. Pause Between Activities
   Take 30 seconds to reset between tasks—whether it’s after a workout, before eating, or transitioning between meetings. A simple pause can help calm your nervous system.

2. Create Flexible Routines
   Consistency with sleep, meals, and movement helps your body feel safe. Build routines that align with your schedule, but allow room for life’s unpredictability.

3. Focus on Play and Fun
   Engage in hobbies, laugh more, and prioritize activities that bring you joy. Smiling and laughter can naturally lower stress hormones.

4. Reframe Negative Self-Talk
   Talk to yourself using your name, as if coaching a friend. For example, “Philip, you’ve got this!” This small shift can help you approach challenges with a more positive mindset.

5. Track Biofeedback
   Keep a simple journal to monitor sleep quality, digestion, cravings, and energy levels. Spotting patterns in your biofeedback can guide your approach to stress management.

The Bigger Picture

If you’ve been struggling to lose fat, build muscle, or simply feel your best, chronic stress could be holding you back. But the solution doesn’t have to involve a complete lifestyle overhaul. Start with small, intentional changes—like taking a few deep breaths, adjusting your training, or adding more fun to your day—and watch how your body responds.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been tracking your food, training consistently and seemingly doing everything right but still can't lose fat, or if you're dealing with constant fatigue, cravings and poor recovery despite your best effort, this episode is for you. Today, we are revealing how chronic stress affects your entire system, from your nervous system to your metabolism, to your hormones, including cortisol, and why understanding this connection could be the key to breaking through some of those plateaus. You'll learn exactly what happens in your body during chronic stress, how it impacts fat loss and muscle gain and, most importantly, what you can do about it. If you're feeling burnt out, stuck or just wanting to optimize your results, today's episode will help you work with your biology instead of against it. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:58

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm discussing the science of stress, metabolism and body composition with Molly McNamee. Molly specializes in understanding that complex relationship between chronic stress, the nervous system and even your physique results. She spent years studying how stress affects our entire hormonal cascade including, yes, cortisol, but many others as well and developing evidence-based strategies to help restore balance. Today, you're going to learn what happens in your body during chronic stress, why this matters for fat loss and muscle gain, and practical strategies that work. We're going to explore how different types of training affect your stress response, what lifestyle factors make the biggest difference and specific techniques to build stress resilience. Molly, welcome to the show.

Molly McNamee: 1:45

Thank you for having me here. I'm really excited to be here today.

Philip Pape: 1:49

I'm excited as well. We were talking before we started recording about the fitness space and the fitness industry and how sometimes cortisol is made out to be the big enemy of X fat loss, whatever, and I wanted to start from that opposite end just to set context with the question. Is there a case where stress is good? What is stress good for, so we don't think it's just a boogeyman to everything and then we can look at the opposite and what we're really concerned about.

Molly McNamee: 2:15

Yeah. So I talk about stress a lot with my clients and on my platforms and I always have people come to me saying, okay, well, there's stress in my life, I'm trying to get rid of this, I don't know what to do about it. And then I tell them the goal is not no stress. That is impossible to not have stress in your life. Instead, the goal is really just to help manage your body's stress response better and make sure stress isn't consuming every part of you.

Molly McNamee: 2:40

So, yes, you can have stress in your life and stress can be really good. I mean, if you think about, like, giving a presentation at work, for example, or if you're a performer, like it's good to feel some of that stress and anxious energy before you get going, it can help you perform better. So stress in itself is not just bad, but what is bad is how stress often then consumes our body and then makes it hard to you know, live and function and act the way that we want it to. So, as we have this conversation, yeah, saying that right off the bat of the goal is not no stress is super important. It's just figuring out how to balance that stress and manage that stress better so that it's not all consuming.

Philip Pape: 3:22

Yeah, fair point and we're going to definitely get into that better so that it's not all consuming. Yeah, fair point and we're going to definitely get into that. So if related to that, if there was a myth or trend out there right now, on Instagram, on social media, wherever people are following, you could like, snap your fingers and just like, put the kibosh on it, just get rid of it. What would that be?

Molly McNamee: 3:38

Well, like, one of my biggest pet peeves with the fitness industry as a whole is just the all or nothing mentality, and that can be applied to pretty much any trend that I see.

Molly McNamee: 3:48

So there are a lot of trends that I would like to snap my fingers and have it go away, but it's mainly that mentality of this is the only thing that works. You're going to follow exactly this and this is going to get you that dream body, and if you do anything else, it's not going to work. I would like for that to go away. I also would really like, just from a stress point, the mentality that the only way to get in shape is to feel absolutely dead after your workouts. I would like for that myth to completely go away, because for a lot of people, pushing your body to an extreme is making their problems worse. So that extremist nature of the fitness industry as a whole I would like that to go away. And then I'm sure, if I thought deeper, there are a lot of like little stupid training and things that I would like to go, but it all comes down to that extremist of this is the way and it has to be extreme and that's all that works.

Philip Pape: 4:41

It's not true. No, no, you're right and you hit me really close to the heart on that one. Only because when the trolls come out on YouTube, it's the videos that are triggering people's. You know, latching on to almost a cult-like adherence to one thing right, like intermittent fasting is the only way to do this and it's we're going to work for everybody, or this one thing is the only way to do it. So that's important because people are listening. It's the nuances and it's the personalization. We're going to talk about that.

Philip Pape: 5:06

As far as training goes, I do want to get into. You know why don't we jump right into that? Because people are listening, care about primarily their body composition and their energy levels and just feeling and looking great as a human being, especially as we get older. So when someone's dealing with chronic stress, the standard advice is sometimes cut back on everything. Sometimes, like you said, it's do more of something. So when we talk about workouts, intensity activities in your life, I feel like it's oversimplified. What does the research say, or what do you say about how stress affects our results in the context of just doing too much?

Molly McNamee: 5:42

Yeah, and, as you said, it is totally convoluted, like in the space, because people are hearing things from every different angle and every body is different is really the baseline statement that I go into when I work with clients. I'm like, how I'm going to train you is going to be different from like the answer someone else needs Because it's interesting, because my story I can share a little bit of. I find that a lot of people who have a similar story to me need similar advice to me. People who don't have a similar story to me don't need advice same advice as me. So I would say that I have had high functioning anxiety for my whole life, so I'm always running a bit higher than other people. So what I need from a workout routine is far different from someone else who is not always running on that high end where they're always feeling a bit anxious. They can handle a bit more intensity, but someone who has a baseline level of anxiety in their body they can't handle the same amount of intensity. So, as you said, the answer isn't okay. You need to stop doing everything if you're feeling anxious or if your nervous system is a wreck. It's just finding the right things to do and tweaking things slightly.

Molly McNamee: 6:51

So I find a lot of people when they hear, oh, you're dealing with chronic stress, you should do less. They then jump to the extreme of doing basically nothing. But when I tell people you should do less, it really just means like you're taking two steps backward. So if you're doing cardio every single day, it's okay. Can we take out one cardio session? Can we take out two cardio sessions? And then the other extreme is true. If they're currently doing nothing and they're being told that they should start being active for their mental health or for their stress levels, the answer isn't start working out every single day. It's baby steps forward and baby steps back. So, wherever you're currently at, it's hard for me to say oh, there's one answer for you. Wherever you're currently at, it's going to be either a little step forward or a little step back. Is the answer of do more or do less?

Philip Pape: 7:39

Yeah, and it sounds like, since it's a spectrum, there could be people who are doing, let's say, the right amount of clock time of something, but not the right thing for that clock time right. So it's not just a matter of more or less time doing something. Let's take a step back now so we don't get too far down that rabbit hole and just talk about chronic stress, what it is, how it affects the body, so that people can understand the signs as we move forward, because we're trying to empower people, not just like here are your 20 solutions and here's your decision tree. It's how do I recognize this in myself so that I know something needs to change?

Molly McNamee: 8:12

Yeah, absolutely. Well, our bodies are really cool, like they have this whole stress response system that's there specifically to keep us safe and that's amazing. We don't want that to change. No-transcript. Look and feel the way that you want to Because, as I said, your body's trying to keep you safe when it's stressed.

Molly McNamee: 8:51

So that means it's going to start to hold on to body fat because it's saying I need as much as I can on my body to keep this body safe, so it's going to store as much as it can. Your metabolism is going to slow down because your body is going to say we need to burn fewer calories because we need to keep this body safe for as long as possible. You're also going to find you can't really sleep because your body doesn't think it's safe to. You're not going to be properly digesting food because your body is rushing that process because it doesn't think it has time to do. That is rushing that process because it doesn't think it has time to do that. So that is fine in small doses. Like I said before, stress is fine to have in your life, but when you're constantly in that state, you're just going to find your body's working against you. So if you're actively trying to build muscle or actively trying to lose weight and you are dealing with chronic stress. It's going to be impossible because your body is doing as much as it can to keep your body existing as it currently is. So a lot of people will feel like, oh, my body is like something sabotaging me. My body's doing nothing that I want it to do, and that, of course, makes sense, because if you're trying to burn a bunch of calories and your body is trying to not burn a bunch of calories, that's going to be kind of frustrating.

Molly McNamee: 10:06

So, like I said, it's amazing how our bodies operate and they, like, have these systems that keep our body functioning.

Molly McNamee: 10:14

But because of the way we all kind of live our life right now, we're jumping from one stressful thing to the next stressful thing, to the next stressful thing, and then that stress response is just constantly activated and that's going to make it hard to exist in the way that you want to exist.

Molly McNamee: 10:28

I mean, I experienced that firsthand where I could gain 20 pounds without changing anything about my exercise routine or my lifestyle and I was like, well, why is this happening? This doesn't make sense at all. But it was just that stress sitting in my body. That was making it hard for my body to do what I wanted it to do. So it's very frustrating, but it's also I'm not saying that to scare anyone because there are easy ways to kind of navigate out of that. But yeah, I find a lot of people who come to work with me are saying I've been trying stuff for years like nothing is working for me and that's just because they've been upsetting their nervous system for years and now their nervous system is saying you're not going to do what I want you to do.

Philip Pape: 11:12

Yeah, I think it's an important message. You're right, because there's this like stress stack that's just built on top one on top of the other, on top of the other, and you just talked about how it's a vicious cycle of. You know, if your stress is higher, then sleep can be poor, Then digestion can be poor, then gut health, you know. Then, then then right, and at the end of the day, right. We talk about energy balance.

Philip Pape: 11:33

I just posted something this morning on threads about like the root cause of obesity isn't the overeating, it's what's causing the overeating, and stress is among those many, many factors. And, like you said in your personal story, it's not even overeating like you're eating more, it's just your body is clamping down more and more and now you're eating more than your body needs in the moment because it's stressed. So you mentioned muscle building just briefly. I do want to touch on that. How does this chronic stress affect both the muscle repair that occurs after we work out and also new muscle protein synthesis? And let's talk about people who aren't even dieting, because dieting is its own stress. Let's say you're just kind of at maintenance. How does stress affect that process?

Molly McNamee: 12:14

Yeah. So stress affects a few things that would influence how you're able to build muscle, and one you touched on it before sleep. So if your body is stressed, you're not getting good sleep and you need good sleep for your muscles to repair and change and grow. So you may feel like, oh, I'm lifting the heaviest weights, then you're not sleeping and then your muscles you're just feeling constantly sore and your body's not changing the way that you want it.

Molly McNamee: 12:41

Another thing is digestion, as we talked about. You could feel like, oh, I'm eating protein, I'm doing the things, why aren't I feeling stronger? But if you're eating stressed out, your body's not really going to absorb those macronutrients and those vitamins and everything the way that you want it to, because your body's stressed and again, it's rushing that digestion process. So to build muscle, you need the proper recovery, like you need to be training those muscles and you need to be feeding those muscles. And if your body is stressed, it's hard to get the recovery or the nutrients or like to feel strong in your workouts because, energy wise, you're going to feel tired and you're going to feel weak.

Philip Pape: 13:22

Yeah, yeah, it's important, yeah. So, again, it just all connects together. You mentioned soreness. I think that's a good point because, again, one pet peeve of mine is the people chasing soreness for its own sake, and oftentimes soreness is a an indicator of something that needs to change right. Like you said, it's either recovery there's good soreness, like when you start a new lift. Uh, these are all signs and we're going to get into some of that biofeedback later so that people can understand. Okay, maybe here's a checklist they can go through. But I want to touch on cortisol now, because cortisol has a place in this big picture and, at the same time, we don't want to hyper-focus, I think, on just cortisol because maybe it's a downstream indicator of something rather than necessarily root cause. What are your thoughts on all that?

Molly McNamee: 14:03

Yeah, it is very rarely the root cause. It is like cortisol is being released in your body when your sympathetic nervous system is activated, which is that part of your nervous system that is creating that fight or flight response in your body. So it's often the case of your nervous system is causing the cortisol to rise and not your cortisol is the mystery of where did this come from? Why is this happening? So I do often think there's too much simplifying when it comes to cortisol or hormones or, honestly, you could think of a lot of topics. There's a lot of simplifying of like oh well, this is the result, so this is the problem and I need to fix it somehow. It's same with people who are bloated. They're like oh, I'm bloated, Bloating is my problem. Bloating isn't the problem. Bloating is the result of something else. That's a problem, and that is what cortisol is. It's the result of something else. That is the problem and going on in your body.

Philip Pape: 15:03

Yeah, cool, yeah, because again, there's lots of tests you can get suckered into. I heard about them, some better than others. There's the Dutch test and there's I don't know if that one covers cortisol, but there's like different hormonal panels people get and in some cases I wonder if people are overreacting to their cortisol curves when something's completely normal for them In other cases it's a sign so let's talk about the different things that then affect our stress response that we can do something about, starting with exercise and training, which we've alluded to. How do the different types of movement and exercise affect this chronic stress?

Molly McNamee: 15:38

Yeah, so every workout is going to trigger some stress response in your body. Exercise is a stressor and again, that's why we were saying stress as a whole is not bad. Some stress is good, but some workouts will stress your body out more than others. So something that is more high intensity, that is pushing your body to an absolute max whether that's with cardio or whether it's with powerlifting and you're lifting the heaviest weights you possibly can or you're running as fast as you possibly can and you're doing highly intense workouts. That's going to cause your nervous system to spike more than other workouts would. Also, long workouts keep your nervous system spiked in that stressful state for much longer.

Molly McNamee: 16:23

Obviously, every workout is a stressor. So if you're working out for two hours straight, your body is stressed for two hours straight and, as I said before, that's not saying endurance workouts are bad for everyone. But if you're currently in a place where you're having active panic attacks multiple times a day and you're not sleeping and you're feeling these effects of stress going off, and then being like I'm going to run this stress away by running for two hours is not actually going to help you at all. So it's just knowing kind of what workout to prescribe to you based on what your stress levels are that day that week at that point in your life. So yeah, as a whole, all workouts are going to stress you out.

Molly McNamee: 17:06

Some Some workouts are going to stress you out more, and those are going to be the more highly intense workouts where you feel like something that I think is good to do is the talk test, where, while you're working out, if you feel like you can't say a sentence without stopping to take a breath, that workout is probably more on the high intensity scale. So for someone who's not checking your heart rate or really familiar with what high intensity is supposed to feel like, that's a good way to kind of gauge how intense is your workout. Can you speak in a sentence before taking a breath or are you gasping for air after every word? And if you're gasping for air, then that means it's a more highly intense workout, and that can be with cardio or strength training Again powerlifting I consider high intensity for a lot of people.

Philip Pape: 17:51

Okay, so you triggered me twice by saying that. So the powerlifting I do want to touch on that because, again anecdotally, I've seen what you've seen, where it's going to depend highly on the person and like in the context of everything they're doing. And I say that because, just to challenge it a little bit, there are cases where, for example, I had a client who she was stressed to the max, stressed to the gills, doing a lot. She was mountain climbing like a massage therapist Peloton and she was trying to lift and we just stripped everything away except the lifting and then her lifting became more intense but I think the net change was lower and I think that's important to understand. Like for her, four days a week for 90 minutes was a super low stress way to train for the week because she wasn't doing a lot of anything else.

Molly McNamee: 18:35

Yeah, it circles back to what I said before, where my solution for everyone is what is two steps forward or two steps back? So it's not okay. You're fully going to eliminate all of these things that I'm talking about from your workout routine or from your life. It's just dialing it back a touch. So that could even be like if, for instance, I worked with a client one time and she told me she started having panic attacks and they feel like they came out of nowhere. But this was when she started working out from home and she was doing 50, five zero minute hit workouts. She was doing long hit workouts and I was like you know what? You probably would have been okay if it was 20 minutes, but the fact that you were doing 50 is a big problem, but she was like in a bad place. So we needed to fully eliminate that high intensity from her routine.

Molly McNamee: 19:28

But that is just an example of just dialing it back a bit can be helpful. So it doesn't have to be oh, you're removing all of these things from your life. I have a friend also who is going through perimenopause, or hormones are kind of a mess, and her nervous system is reacting to all of that and she's also training for a marathon and I'm like, oh, what bad timing, because those long, long runs that you're going on are definitely not helping this. So then I'm just encouraging her to, a couple of days, change her training, not stop training for the marathon. So it can just be small changes.

Philip Pape: 20:05

Yeah, so that's, that's good. Let's segue then on the small changes, because you've mentioned sleep, you've mentioned recovery, you've mentioned um. I mean, we haven't even really talked about the life stress that we're all under. That causes a lot of this stress as well. I guess my question is obviously where would someone start? That's kind of the general thought here. But what's the big low-hanging fruit for most people when they do an inventory audit of their life, like just in general, for people listening, like, okay, let me start with the movement or start with the life stress or whatever. Later on I want to talk about unavoidable stress and what we can do about it. But like, here are the things we can control.

Molly McNamee: 20:41

Yeah. So I would always say, instead of thinking what can I remove from my life, think what can I add to my life. And so the easiest place for people to start, I would say, is not even exercise. It's not even what you're eating, it's just little little habits that you have in your day. Can you fix your posture regularly throughout your day? You could start there. Fixing your posture is going to help you breathe more deeply because your lungs are expanded. It's going to help you feel more confident and it's going to help your body feel I know we're all fixing.

Philip Pape: 21:11

I'm like I want to fix my posture right now. I stand, I'm standing, though.

Molly McNamee: 21:14

I'm like I want to fix my posture. Right now I'm standing, though, yeah. So it's small things like that. That is what I help people start with. It's not okay. Who can I break up with from my life to remove a large amount of stress? It's not that it's not okay. How can I overhaul my exercise routine? It's not that. It's what tiny things. Can you do? So with posture? One thing that I encourage my community to do is, anytime you get a notification on your phone, fix your posture.

Molly McNamee: 21:41

That's an easy place to start. Within your first hour of waking up in the morning, can you go outside and take some deep breaths. Start there Like little, little things are going to be the best place for you to start, instead of thinking what big thing can I change, what big thing can I remove? It's really. What small thing can I do to activate my parasympathetic nervous system, that part of your nervous system that's helping you relax and rest and digest? What can I do to activate that regularly, throughout the day, so that stress isn't consuming me? So it's not what to change, it's what to add really.

Philip Pape: 22:18

I love that and I didn't expect that answer, which I'm pleasantly surprised, only because in the nutrition world we talk about that as well. People are always trying to restrict and cut out right and we're like, no, just add in protein, add in fiber, add in some things you like and start crowding the other stuff out potentially. And, by the way, your cortisol guide you have, just so everybody listening. Molly didn't tell me to do this, but she shared it with me and we're going to talk about where to get that. It has some of these tips in there and I saw those ahead of time like, oh, that's interesting, Like little simple things that you don't often think about. So okay, Beyond that, there are some scenarios, I guess, that are of interest to people, and I've had some of my community reach out with questions ahead of time.

Philip Pape: 22:57

For someone who's managing their stress well, let's just say, like they have great sleep and they've balanced their nutrition and their training, but they're still not seeing progress. Like it could stress over the issue Are they missing something? Is there something they're overlooking?

Molly McNamee: 23:13

So, yeah, I used to think stress is just my interactions with people and the world and stuff that I can see. But there are a lot of things that can cause your body to feel stress that you can't even see and you may not even feel and again, I'm not saying that to scare people, but just like raise awareness to it. But things like the products you're using to clean your house or the air quality of the town you live in those types of things can start to stress out your body. You could have an infection that you don't know about, which is something that actually happened to me.

Molly McNamee: 23:48

There was a time where my anxiety and my stress was at an all-time high and I was examining my life and I was like, why is this happening? And then it turned out I had a yeast overgrowth in my gut that was just wreaking havoc on my nervous system. So if you feel like, why is my body not responding, it could be worth investigating like, okay, what potentially unseen things are happening. Not saying that's the right solution for everyone. I'm not saying if you're not losing weight or you're not building muscle, it means something is wrong with your body, but it could mean something is wrong with your body, and I also feel like we all are used to a certain level of stress in our life.

Molly McNamee: 24:29

Like we get used to things and we wake things off as being normal that aren't really normal. So that's where it can be really nice to like have an outside perspective, maybe speak to a friend, maybe speak to a coach or a therapist and just be like so this is what's going on and they may be able to tell you okay, that's actually not super normal. I have a client right now who like literally says oh yeah, things are totally fine. But he's also a single parent. He has three jobs and two are his own businesses and he's like this is all fine, nothing's strange. I'm like there's so much stress in your life that you are just used to this stress, now Normalized it yeah.

Molly McNamee: 25:07

Normalized it. So I would also, I guess, challenge those people who are saying I'm dealing with everything perfectly, but my body's not changing, to potentially examine is that the case? And then also, are there unseen things that could be stressing out your body? Something I think is really helpful for everyone to do, at least for a week or two, is to keep a little vibe check journal in your phone or keep it by your bed and just keep note of how you're feeling each day. Keep track of how are you sleeping? Are you bloated? Do you have a headache? Do you feel anxious? Is your heart racing at all randomly? Just keep track of those things and you may start to see if there are some things actually happening that you weren't aware of.

Philip Pape: 25:54

Yeah, no, you mentioned some great things, the first being that there are lots of things in our environment that could affect us and we don't need to like fear monger it per se, but it's good to be aware. I knew a guy who worked in an office environment and something wasn't right, and there was. He was allergic to some form of mold or something that didn't affect most people you know, and he went and worked from home and all of a sudden it cleared away. So, yeah, I like the Vibe Check Journal. I mean, I talk about biofeedback all the time and it sounds like there are some nice granular levels of stress measures that you can track and maybe, if there's time, we can get into that. But I like that idea Kind of maybe a little bit related to this or not is how often is the case where somebody is just trying to diet too much and that's the cause of their stress?

Molly McNamee: 26:37

That's very often, if not the most common.

Molly McNamee: 26:40

It's potentially the most common.

Molly McNamee: 26:42

I mean, when people are actively trying to lose weight, like the first thing they think is, oh, I should exercise more or I should eat less, like those are the two things people instantly jump to.

Molly McNamee: 26:53

And you can do that again to a degree. You probably do need to maybe eat a little less or move a little bit more, but people often take it to the extreme. So if you have been dieting for a long time, that is a stress in your body Absolutely, and that's like, if it's prolonged and if it's been extreme, that's going to start to upset your body. And also, just like from a metabolism standpoint, when you are stressing out your body with that diet, like I said, your body's going to start to burn fewer calories through existing because it's thinking we're in survival mode. Now You're telling us we're stressed, you're telling us we can't eat, so we're going to keep you safe, don't worry. And you're just not going to burn calories anymore, or you're not going to not burn calories, but you're not going to burn as many calories through existing and then that can make it extremely hard to then actually be in a calorie deficit.

Molly McNamee: 27:46

If you think you are, you may not even be in one, which is annoying. So I would say abusing or over dieting is a huge cause for stress for a lot of people, but also just food in general is a stressor and a trigger for a lot of people, especially like I mean, people who are actively trying to lose weight have probably had some times where they're a bit upset with food and they're a bit upset how they're eating. So just having that kind of negative relationship with food itself can be a stressor. So then it could be anytime you think what am I going to eat for dinner? That could be stressing out your body just itself. Even the fact of like just thinking about food Dieting itself is a stressor, but thinking about food can be a stressor for a lot of people.

Philip Pape: 28:31

Yeah, it makes sense. I mean there are so many causes of overconsumption, related to stress and also appetite regulation and hormones, that they're all tied together. I'm curious. Just recently I learned how there was some study on the thyroid that showed a roughly average 6% reduction in thyroid production during a 500 calorie deficit, right? So like roughly on average, somebody who goes into a diet, their hormones downregulate we know that's part of metabolic adaptation and then it comes back. So it's not like you're damaging it, right From a stress perspective. And maybe it's cortisol specifically. Do we have any sort of numbers or like measures of what happens to cortisol where it's normal but it's going to happen when we diet and then it kind of comes back, do we?

Carol: 29:21

do you have any details like?

Molly McNamee: 29:21

that.

Philip Pape: 29:22

Number-wise. No, I can't spit out numbers for you.

Molly McNamee: 29:22

They would all be a lie and things that I am making up off the top of my head, off of assumptions, but absolutely it's kind of, as we talked about before, where stress in small doses is not a bad thing.

Molly McNamee: 29:29

So if you are the rare person who has never dieted before and you don't have a negative relationship with food and you go on a diet, that can be initially helpful and that initial stressor, as it said, it's not going to be a prolonged effect. Where I find this is a problem most is people who are repeatedly dieting over and over and where they bounce back and forth between dieting and not dieting and they're just kind of flip-flopping through those two extremes over and over, and where they bounce back and forth between dieting and not dieting and they're just kind of flip-flopping through those two extremes. That's where dieting affects cortisol in your nervous system the most. But if you're just occasionally going on a diet, if it's not something you're repeatedly going back and forth with, if it's not something you're over-abusing, then it's not bad. 're over abusing, then it's not a it's not bad, uh and it's. You are going to see those initial effects of maybe your hormones get a little out of whack, but then they do normalize, yeah.

Carol: 30:25

Yeah, no, that's a great point.

Molly McNamee: 30:26

The feed offenders and the the over I was going to say over under eating, which is such a silly thing to say Extreme extreme dieters.

Philip Pape: 30:35

Yeah, extreme dieters A big calorie deficit way beyond what it should be. Yeah.

Molly McNamee: 30:39

Exactly, yeah, that's uh. That is always going to be negatively impacting your body, especially if you do that for a long time like a week, I mean maybe whatever, Uh, but if you're doing that for a while, that's yeah, definitely.

Philip Pape: 30:57

I mean, folks need to hear that. That it's. There are different variables, right, there's how fast you go, there's how long you go, and then how many times you do it and how everything else is set up for that.

Molly McNamee: 31:05

And that's exactly why it's anytime I have conversations with people I say I wish it was black and white, like I wish I could be that coach who presents things as like a black and white thing because it's much easier to sell. But for most people it's not. It's like when I first start working with someone, there's a whole conversation of what is your life looked like up until now, because that influences then what your body is willing and able to do in this exact moment.

Philip Pape: 31:33

For sure. There was a recent study that looked at fat cells and again showed how our history of dieting affects the fat cells kind of resilience and ability to store fat faster and more easily. Right, not necessarily that we produce more. I know that used to be a prevailing thought. I think that's much more rare. We've seen in the evidence that we create more fat cells. But it's epigenetics at its finest. So that's cool. Now what about the opposite end, where we have people who have lots of life stress, like shift workers? I just had someone before this. I said hey, molly's coming on, do you guys have questions? And he's like yeah, I've got 16 hour shifts in a truck and like sleep cycles all over and they can't change it. Like we're talking caregivers. And like sleep cycles all over and they can't change it. Like we're talking caregivers, you know, moms and just nurses. Like there's so many people that have that stress. What's the most realistic? Like no excuse, advice that you'd give them to help make progress anyway, if that makes sense, yeah.

Molly McNamee: 32:30

So, depending on what the extreme is like, if you are working 16 hours and that type of thing, first advice would be you need a routine that you stick to, like you need to stick to it as regularly as possible, and then those people I would especially say those smaller things are going to be really powerful for you.

Molly McNamee: 32:53

So if you are working 16 hour shifts and it is like a highly stressful 16 hours, again, anytime you hear a phone ring can you fix your posture or take a deep breath, like what small things can you incorporate into your kind of hectic day so that you are keeping that stress balanced in your body and it's not getting out of hand?

Molly McNamee: 33:15

But the biggest thing is you need to have a set routine of like okay, this is what I'm going to go to sleep, this is when I'm going to wake up, this is like how I'm going to wake up, this is my morning routine, this is my nighttime routine. Having those routines in place is going to be incredibly helpful because I find for a lot of people because I've definitely worked with some people before that have hectic three-month periods and they're like okay, this three-month chunk in my life is absolutely chaotic and it is every year, but I just suffer through it. You need a routine instead of just suffering through something. So if you're waiting for your next vacation, if you're waiting for your next break to get back on track, set the routine. Make it work with the chaos.

Philip Pape: 34:00

I love it, and is the reason for that the simply having the consistency, and or is it because our bodies respond better to predictability?

Molly McNamee: 34:10

Both a bit. I mean, our bodies feel safer with that predictability and a lot of times where stress becomes a problem is your body does not feel safe anymore. It's just always kind of on edge. So our bodies feel safer with that predictability. Also, having that routine is going to help you sleep better. It's going to help you digest food better. It's just going to help your body function a little bit better.

Molly McNamee: 34:34

Because, especially with like a nighttime routine and stuff like that, I always compare it to toddlers how toddlers have to have like a set list of things that they do or they won't sleep and their nap time and everything Like if we have a routine, our body is going to respond to that routine more effectively versus if we're just like trying to survive and get through it.

Molly McNamee: 35:02

That makes it difficult and I know like I have lots of clients who are parents and they're like, yeah, well, I can have a routine and like it's the best of my intentions to stick with that routine, but then a kid can throw me off of that routine to stick with that routine, but then a kid can throw me off of that routine.

Molly McNamee: 35:18

Allowing your routine to not be so hard and rigid is also an important thing where it's like, okay, well, I have to wake up and I have to do this 10 minute meditation or my life is ruined, like there needs to be some flexibility. There needs to be routine, but there needs to be flexibility within the routine. I hope that makes sense. I even encourage people to kind of have a plan A and a plan B even with their exercise routine, where it's have the thing you want to do and then have a plan B in place, so that it's not the end of the world if you can't do that initial plan A. So maybe having a couple of options for your routine is also a good idea.

Philip Pape: 35:57

Yeah, the kind of not rigid flexibility, but flexibility with guardrails or guidelines, whatever you want to call it, is super empowering, because I know the sleep side of it. People often have random sleep times, even though their wake times are consistent. That's a problem, right? Everybody knows about an alarm in the morning, but nobody sets an alarm at night, right? It's pretty common. So, thinking about those things, you called us all toddlers, which I appreciate, because I have two kids, 10 and 12, two daughters and part of my personal journey of wanting to be fit, as I'm 44 now, is to play with them and to be a kid with them. So let's talk about play for a little bit. I wasn't even going to bring this up but, like, I think that's a huge part of it, whether it's play or hobbies or just really fun diversionary things and where that fits into stress management. What are your thoughts?

Molly McNamee: 36:48

Oh, it is so helpful. I mean even just like if you were to Google, actually I'm not sure if this would be the first thing that you could Google, but if you were to ask what's one of the easiest ways to activate my parasympathetic nervous system, smiling, laughing, like those things are super helpful for helping your body feel safe. So doing things in your life that allow you to smile and laugh and enjoy and feel relaxed are so important, and I also say the same for your workout routine as well are so important, and I also say the same for your workout routine as well. Like if you're having fun with your movements, that's even more beneficial, versus if it just feels like you know 40 minutes of torture, then that's less enjoyable to your body. But yeah, and I find as adults it can be tough to make time for those hobbies and make time for that quote unquote fun, but it is super important too.

Molly McNamee: 37:38

So something I do in my own life is and I know maybe this sounds a bit crazy to people listening, but I write a schedule for everything. So I have a to-do list that includes my work to do, my personal chores and also my fun. I put my fun on on my to-do list and I'm a big advocate for putting yourself on your to-do list instead of just being like, okay, I got to do all of this stuff and if I have time for me I'll get to me. But add yourself and add your fun and add your self-care to your to-do list. Literally, if you need to set aside time for it, like have an alarm go off at like two seven and just know you have five minutes to do something fun at that time. Like literally plug yourself into your to do list, whether it be fun and play, whether it be a hobby, whether it be taking a bath, like it could be, whatever you want it to be. But plugging yourself into your schedule is super important and whether it be play or relaxation, it's important.

Philip Pape: 38:35

That's a good one, Cause we talk about prioritizing all the things we have to do and that are important to us, and it's all serious Like that's, but why not put in the fun time? Uh, even just nothing. Time like just put in time where you're like this is reserved to do whatever I want and we'll see what happens.

Molly McNamee: 38:51

And I know for a lot of people that could be like oh, that's so impossible, like I need to be showing up for all of these things. But I think it's important to remember that if you're not feeling your best, you can't show up 100% for all of those things. Like it's going to take you longer to read an email. If, like, you're experiencing like some brain fog, if you're kind of sleepy, like if you take even just five minutes out for yourself, you may find you get your tasks done faster and more effectively because you gave some of that time back to you and you're feeling more energized because of it.

Carol: 39:25

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 40:05

Now, for those of you listening to this, I don't know if you can hear our smiles and Molly's like bright face, but if you want to watch the video, you should watch it because I think, like the smile, you're right. The smiling is like so important and so kind of um. Related to that is positivity in general. Well, I mean, one thing that I encounter all the time with people frustrated and struggling is negative self-talk and negative framing on things, and I was again, wasn't even going to ask about this, and I'm thinking just again us smiling with each other here and making it a positive thing. How can people use one of those techniques reframing or some behavioral technique that you use with clients to help with their stress, to help reframe the situation?

Molly McNamee: 40:44

Well, one of my favorite things to do currently actually and I started incorporating this into my life over the last month and I have found it to be weirdly, really, really helpful is I talk to myself using my name. So I'm like Molly, you're doing great today. Like I literally say my name out loud, and that because you can hear that like oh yeah, positive self talk, like be kind to yourself, that kind of thing and I would always try that and not really feel any different. But actually saying my name and feeling like I'm talking to myself has been incredibly helpful for me for reducing some of my anxiety. Like I have my things that I get stressed about, where it's like, oh, if I am hopping on a call to be interviewed for this podcast, before I like take a deep breath and I'm like, molly, you got this and it can just be as simple as that.

Molly McNamee: 41:35

But that positive self-talk is super powerful and it is on the opposite end, like how you talk to yourself in general is very powerful. So if you're also talking down on yourself, your body's going to start to feel that. It's really going to start to feel that. So, if you're like, why are you doing this? If you're like constantly like criticizing your body and constantly being like why are you doing this? To me your body's going to be like a scared kid, like again we're talking about toddlers Like if you say something mean to a toddler, it's going to they're going to feel kind of bad and your body's kind of the same. I didn't mean to call us toddlers so many times today but we kind of are.

Philip Pape: 42:13

I don't mind at all, and you weren't nervous before coming on right.

Molly McNamee: 42:16

That was just an example, just an example, just an example, but it is interesting, as you do your self-talk. Talking to yourself, using your name can be super helpful. And then also the tone that you're using with your self-talk is also very powerful, like if I'm feeling anxious for something and I'm like pull it together. Molly, you got this. If I just said that a little kinder, my body would have taken it as more of a kind thing instead of a mean thing. So your tone and the words you're using as you talk to yourself and I know maybe I'm strange, maybe I'm the only one who speaks to myself, but you should try it if you have it.

Philip Pape: 42:55

No, you're not the only one. Yeah, but using the name specifically is a really nice twist on it, because we all might. I'm assuming most people talk to themselves. I always joke, as long as you don't argue with yourself, but using your own name is a nice trigger because we respond so emotionally to our name. So I love that. And who else is there to do it for you? I mean, occasionally you have, obviously, people you're interacting with, but you're by yourself, majority of your existence, if you think about it. Yeah, I was just working out this morning and a guy, a friend of mine, would send me these reels of this guy yelling lightweight, lightweight, like when it's super heavyweight to make it feel lighter. So I started doing that and like what if I throw my name in there? Now, philip, you got this.

Molly McNamee: 43:33

This is super light, go for it Right, Like how's that going to affect that Exactly? It is strange, but it is effective and I would love to hear if it helps for you Exactly.

Philip Pape: 43:43

All right, cool, yeah, cause I am a fan of positive psychology, which is a whole separate field. If you haven't gotten into it, molly, look it up. It's like uh, it sounds the same as psychology, but just putting the word positive in front of it, it's a whole separate field of where and I'm not trying to like mansplain, it's just something I'm excited about. Sorry, molly, is that? Um, like, psychology looks at what's wrong with our brain and positive psychology looks like what looks at what we can do positively in our life, and they're not considered opposites. It's like they're two independent things, just like you talked about adding in things to your life. It's not that we're trying to have opposites and cancel things out, right, we're trying to add things to our life.

Molly McNamee: 44:19

So oh, that sounds cool. I'm going to look that up as soon as we're done here, because I'm so fascinated.

Philip Pape: 44:26

It's only like a 30 year old field. I think it started in the 90s. It's pretty recent, only like a 30-year-old field. I think it started in the 90s. It was pretty recent, amazing. Okay. So I think we're starting to wrap up here. As far as strategies, I don't know if people are like hey, molly, there's so many things that you still haven't covered with. What can I do? Is there any one or two big things that stick out that you love to share with people that I haven't specifically asked you about?

Molly McNamee: 44:50

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I'm all about starting small. So if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, that's so small and insignificant, like the small and insignificant things are actually really, really powerful for your nervous system specifically. So one of the things I just recommend everyone do and this may sound a little silly but just pause between activities. In your day.

Molly McNamee: 45:11

We're all often kind of running from one thing to the next, even with our workout. So I'll say this as an example I know a lot of people rush their cool down so that they can hop in their car and get back to their life. But can you take an extra couple of minutes to just lie down on your back and breathe after you finish your workout? Can you literally pause and just breathe and relax for even 30 seconds would be helpful if you're not doing anything like that right now. But so many of us are going from one thing that's stressing out our body right into the next thing right into the next thing. So another example if you're driving and you're rushing and you're in rush hour traffic and you're feeling kind of stressed in your car, you park your car, can you just sit for 30 seconds? Literally just pausing between activities can be a really good way to tell your body it's, it's cool, we're, we're safe. Now you can relax, um.

Philip Pape: 46:01

So I think that's another really easy thing that people could start doing and applying into their life yeah, I can see how powerful that would be, because I'm reflecting on my own most of my days, where it's like one thing to the next, to the next, even when you don't have it. I say even when you don't have it scheduled. I mean, if you're listening to this, think about it, think about your own life every day, even when you have time. How often do we just keep filling in that time and go, go, go yeah.

Philip Pape: 46:26

Right, it's like the next thing, next thing go do the chore over here. Oh, now I have five minutes to do this, Let me go do this. It's just constant.

Molly McNamee: 46:32

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 46:32

And you're saying take a break, yeah.

Molly McNamee: 46:34

Eating is a good place to do this as well. A lot of people will just like have the meal in front of them and start digging in. But if you could stop and take like two deep breaths before you start eating your meal, that's going to help your digestive system feel calmer so it can work better as you eat that food. And it may again sound small and significant, but if your body's feeling calmer while you're eating and you are maybe following a certain diet where you've maybe increased your protein or you've increased something because you have these physical goals, feeling calmer while you eat is going to help you absorb that food and those nutrients better so that you can get the results that you're looking for. So those small pauses again they seem small, they seem silly, but especially like right before mealtime, it can really make or break how effective that meal is for you.

Philip Pape: 47:23

All of these little stress snacks or stress management snacks or whatever are really great, because the typical advice is like start a meditation practice or do yoga, right, and it's like these big things that you're like, no, I'm not going to do that. No, that sounds like where you've come from to get to this point. So things that actually work for people.

Molly McNamee: 47:40

Exactly. I mean, I am someone who is an overachiever, so it is kind of funny for me to like always be advocating for the small things. But I know, like meditation, you said, for example yeah, when you look up how to relieve stress, it's often oh, journal for 30 minutes, meditate for 30 minutes, and I'm just like can you talk to yourself out loud for 15 seconds? And that's your journaling. Can you just close your eyes for 30 seconds and that's your meditation. Like, can it be simpler? So, with everything, if you're trying to incorporate a new habit into your life and you're having a tough time sticking with that habit, I would always ask yourself how can I make this simpler? Because as you try to incorporate new things into your life, it should not feel impossible or that's going to start to stress out your body. So make it simpler for yourself and then just build on that.

Philip Pape: 48:31

It's a great message and I appreciate your perspective on all this, as well as your positivity and your smile and helping me de-stress through this conversation, because I always love talking to great people, so where do you want listeners to find you, Molly? And also I know we're going to throw a guide in there for folks, so feel free to talk about that.

Molly McNamee: 48:48

Yeah, I mean, I know the topic of stress and hormones and all of that is like taboo and kind of dramatic. But, yeah, if you have been listening to this and you've been relating and you're thinking, ok, stress is relevant in my life, what do I do about this, then I have written an e-book that I would love to give your listeners for free, and it's all about mastering your stress hormone, cortisol, and it's filled with a lot of practical and personalized tips that'll just help you figure out really what cortisol is first of all and why it matters. How to identify if your body is producing too much cortisol. There's a really big symptom checklist in there that may be helpful for some of you, and then it also gives even more of these really simplified tips and lifestyle changes and habits that you can start to incorporate into your life to keep your stress hormones happy. So if anyone wants that, it is on my website, which is just my name, mollymcnameecom forward slash cortisol.

Molly McNamee: 49:42

But I'm also all over the social medias. If anyone wants to connect with me, I'm on Instagram under my business name, which is mfitworkouts, and I post stuff on there all the time that's more just like simplified tips, like I've been talking about today, but also if you just need someone as a part of your support system, feel free to message me, and I'm always just down to chat. So if you're feeling kind of lonely I know how lonely it can be when you're trying to lose weight or you're going through some mental health struggles so just reach out. You don't have to be alone.

Philip Pape: 50:13

There you go, if you appreciated Molly's effervescent attitude or appearance today and all her great stuff and, by the way, I did take a look at the guide. I always ask for guests ahead of time to share it with me and I think it's awesome Totally subscribe to everything she's saying. So definitely go check it out. Follow her on IG, reach out seriously. Send her a message, please do. I know I asked for people to reach out to me and few people do it because I know you're afraid or maybe not sure if they're going to respond. Molly's going to respond. Reach out to her and then we're going to do an IG live in January, right? So follow her page just for that Page feed. You know what I meant profile.

Molly McNamee: 50:55

All right, so, molly, thank you so much for coming on. We're going to put those in the show notes. And it's been a blast. Yes, thank you so much. This has been really fun.

25 New Year's Ideas to Lose Fat, Gain Muscle, and Boost Your Metabolism (Lateral Thinking) | Ep 264

Join our FREE Wits & Weights Facebook group to get a downloadable PDF guide of the 25 creative strategies in this episode... and connect with like-minded people who use evidence-based principles to optimize their fitness!

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Are your New Year's resolutions already feeling stale? If you're tired of the same old fitness advice that ignores your lifestyle and preferences, it's time for a different approach.

Learn how Lateral Thinking, a powerful engineering concept, can give you infinite practical ways to lose fat, build muscle, and boost your metabolism without relying on willpower or motivation.

I'm giving you 25 creative strategies that adapt to your life, not the other way around. Whether you struggle with meal prep, workout consistency, or hitting your protein goals, these creative solutions will transform how you approach fitness in 2025.

Main Takeaways:

• How to make healthy choices the path of least resistance using environmental design

• Creative ways to gamify your nutrition and training for better adherence

• Practical systems that work with your lifestyle, not against it

• Why asking "wild questions" leads to better solutions than forcing conventional approaches

📝 Get the free PDF with these 25 ideas by joining our Facebook Group!

Creative Strategies for Fat Loss, Muscle Gain, and Metabolism Boosting in the New Year

New Year’s resolutions often fail because they focus on rigid, cookie-cutter approaches. But what if you could challenge assumptions and craft solutions tailored to your life? Welcome to a smarter, more sustainable way to approach your health and fitness goals using lateral thinking. This method, borrowed from engineering, challenges conventional wisdom and inspires out-of-the-box ideas to tackle the obstacles holding you back.

Below, we’ll explore 25 game-changing strategies to lose fat, build muscle, and enhance your metabolism. These ideas aren’t about doing more—they’re about doing things differently.

Why Conventional Thinking Fails

Most fitness advice takes a linear approach: eat less, exercise more, and stick to the plan. While these are technically correct, they ignore critical factors like your unique schedule, preferences, and rhythms. Lateral thinking turns these issues on their head by asking better questions:

• How can I make nutritious food the easiest choice?

• Can my workouts feel more like play than a chore?

• What if late-night snacking could support my goals?

This shift in perspective makes resolutions stick by addressing your challenges creatively and personally.

So…What are the 25 Creative Ideas?

Just join the Wits & Weights Facebook group to get them totally free or listen/watch the episode.

📝 Get the free PDF with these 25 ideas by joining our Facebook Group!

Start Small and Stay Consistent

You don’t need to overhaul your entire life on January 1st. Instead, pick one or two ideas that resonate and test them out. Adjust, refine, and expand as needed.

Remember, the best solutions come not from working harder but thinking smarter. When you align your health goals with strategies that fit your life, success becomes inevitable.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

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📞 Send a Q&A voicemail

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's be honest, most New Year's resolutions fail because people try the same approaches that didn't work last year. They restrict foods they love, force themselves through boring workouts and wonder why nothing sticks past January. But what if we took an engineer's approach and asked wild questions instead? What if meal prep could be fun? What if snacks could become a secret weapon? Today, I'm using lateral thinking, a powerful problem-solving tool from engineering, to give you 25 practical ways to lose fat, build muscle and boost your metabolism. These aren't just theory. They are battle-tested strategies that adapt to your life, not the other way around round.

Philip Pape: 0:50

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pate. Engineers solve complex problems by looking at them from unexpected angles. Whether designing a bridge or optimizing a production line, we often find the best solutions by asking strange questions. Today, we're applying this concept of lateral thinking to your fitness, your training, your nutrition, to give you creative strategies that actually work. And before we get into it, if you want to connect with others who use these approaches to fitness, join our Wits and Weights Facebook group. It's totally free. Just search for Wits and Weights on Facebook or click the link in the show notes. It is a vibrant community of like-minded people who share ideas and support each other, and it is entirely positive and encouraging. So I encourage you to join our Wits and Weights Facebook group.

Philip Pape: 1:45

All right, let's start by breaking down what lateral thinking is and how you can use it to solve your challenges when it comes to your health and fitness journey. Most people approach fitness with vertical thinking, straight line logic that says to lose weight, eat less or to get stronger, lift heavier. And while these are I'll call technically true, they are not only out of context, but they often lead to frustration simply because they're too simplistic. Lateral thinking is about challenging your assumptions and asking unexpected questions. So here's how that might work. Instead of asking how could I eat less, you might ask how could I make nutritious food the default choice in my kitchen? What if meal prep was a social activity? How could I make vegetables the most convenient snack for me? Or, instead of just thinking that I need to work out more, try how could my commute include movement? What if my training felt like playing a game? And could my kids' activities become part of my workout? These are just interesting little questions, many of which you can come up with a thousand times over that might apply to your situation.

Philip Pape: 2:57

The key is to break free from conventional solutions. So, when you hit a roadblock, ask yourself what assumptions am I making? What if the opposite were true? How would someone from a completely different field solve this? And what aspects haven't I considered?

Philip Pape: 3:14

For example, one of my clients struggled with late night snacking recently or often. It's a very common thing, right? And instead of just saying all right, stop eating after 8 pm, because a lot of people go to the first solution of I need to stop doing this thing. That's the vertical thinking solution. We instead use lateral thinking. We ask well, what if late night snacking could help your goals? Hmm, this then led to preparing a protein-rich snack I think in this case it was Greek yogurt with berries in advance, pre-logging it and actually incorporating it into the meal plan. Amazing, right Now. The problem wasn't the timing, it was the food choices, the portions, things like that.

Philip Pape: 3:53

Now the issue is standard advice and there is a lot of conventional wisdom. Isn't always that it's wrong Oftentimes it is, I will admit, but sometimes it's simply that it assumes everyone can succeed the same way. That is the big assumption in the fitness industry that everyone can follow an intermittent fasting. Everyone can do this one thing and it's going to work for them, and that's this classic square peg into a round hole situation where it's not personalized. And this becomes especially clear in January when the gyms fill up with people following the exact same plan, or they follow a plan that ignores their natural eating patterns, their schedule constraints, their food preferences, their energy and their rhythms, their circadian rhythms, their social lives. It just ignores all of that stuff, and it's no wonder that most resolutions fail by February.

Philip Pape: 4:41

So now I'm gonna give you the 25 ideas. Now, I know this is a lot. This can be overwhelming. I don't know how long this episode is going to take, but we will. Um, I I will include the entire list and the details in our Facebook group. They're not going to be in the timestamps because the show notes would get too long. They're going to be available, posted in the group, totally free. All you have to do is click the link in the show notes join our Facebook group and you'll get the printed out guide version of this. I think I'm going to make a PDF as well, just to make it super easy to get to Join our group and you'll get that, and then you can follow on in this podcast to hear them all.

Philip Pape: 5:18

So number one number one is always eat protein first within your meal, before you touch your carbs or fats. This might seem simple in terms of prioritizing protein and I talk a lot about making sure every meal includes protein but we're talking about a simple hack of just eating the protein first always. You might have heard in the past, like eat your vegetables first, they'll fill you up. I recommend eating your protein first. It will fill you up and meet your protein and this research shows it can reduce calorie intake and maintain your satiety. And then you can track how this affects your fullness levels and adjust your portions accordingly. But always start by eating the protein.

Philip Pape: 6:00

Of personal records for you in the gym, besides just the weight, in other words, many of us track what's our max squat or what's our max five rep, our five rep max squat. I want you to come up with something else that you can track that makes it gamified. For example, how many reps you got with perfect form, right, like so if you're doing a set of five and you know two of those weren't great, you only give yourself a three out of five, and next time you're going for a five. So come up with a way to gamify your workouts beyond just the weight lifted, and that'll give you more frequent wins and also ensure that you work on something like your technical mastery. Number three is using a scale to rate your fullness levels at each meal. You can use a scale of one to 10, and usually I tell people to track things like biofeedback, right, their hunger, their digestion, their stress and so on, but actually track your fullness level not your hunger, but your fullness level when you eat, and then you can correlate those scores with what you ate and when you ate it, and then, after about 30 days, you can see which combinations keep you the most satisfied. Isn't that cool? So that's a way to see what actually fills you up.

Philip Pape: 7:09

Number four this is about strategically setting up your kitchen environment, but I'm going to give you specifics. I want you to reorganize your kitchen based on nutritional hierarchy, the things that you think are most important. So protein sources and vegetables. Put them at eye level. Make your measuring tools easily accessible, including your food scale. Put calorie-dense foods in a place where it requires extra steps to reach them, including putting them in a box, within a bag, within a cupboard, for example, and this is applying behavioral science to your nutrition, in controlling your environment.

Philip Pape: 7:44

The fifth idea I came up with is to film one set of a compound exercise every week that you are working on. You could do them all, but just to keep it simple, film one set let's say it's your deadlift and then you, on your own, compare it to a good form video, like the ones from Barbell Logic, for example. I have some in my own coaching practice and our Physique University, but film yourself, compare it to the form video and make one specific technique correction each week until you get to mastering the movement. This is just a way to, on your own, get your own self-form check by comparing it to videos. All right.

Philip Pape: 8:25

Number six I want you to track unique protein sources you consume each week. What do I mean? Well, research shows that varied nutrient profiles support better body composition, and I know after talking with, for example, dr Sarah Ballantyne, having more variety of nutritious foods in your diet are only beneficial, and I'm talking about protein specifically. So what I want you to do is, within a given week, I want you to not only log your food but look at how many different unique protein sources you consume. Now here's a cool hack for this If you use Macrofactor, export Macrofactor go to the data export where it creates a spreadsheet, and in that spreadsheet is a tab that shows all your foods as a flat list, and from that you might be able to see how many different protein sources you consume. But just pick a specific week and just list them out and try to get at least 10, at least 10 different sources of protein. So if you're always eating chicken breast, that's perhaps not enough variety and you might want to incorporate some other sources of protein.

Philip Pape: 9:27

Idea number seven creative lateral thinking. Idea number seven is what I call a recovery points system. I want you to assign points to different recovery methods that are important to you. For example, sleep quality could be a recovery method, your rest periods between your sets could be a recovery method, your rest periods between your sets could be a recovery method, the days between your workouts and just come up with a score system that has points and quantifies your recovery based on what you want. So what you can do is you can list the things out that you think are important for your recovery, give them points and say I want to get at least this many points this week and that way you can see are you objectively actually getting the recovery you want, as opposed to just going by how you feel.

Philip Pape: 10:11

Now my next idea hopefully it's not too confusing, but here's what I thought, here's what I came up with Create a fundamental take, a fundamental movement or lift that you're trying to work on. Okay, and again I'm going back to squat, because everybody has trouble with their squat and I want you to create a difficulty ladder. So, for example, I want you to identify three things about your squat that you want to nail and that could be getting below parallel. That could be avoiding too much knee slide and it could be keeping your back tight, for example. Those are just three. Just pick three things, specific objective things and it could be keeping your back tight, for example. Those are just three. Just pick three things, specific objective things, and then every time you do a rep, just note did you get each of those things? Now you could simplify and just do two or just do one, and the idea here is to see how often you get all of the cues that you're trying to get throughout your set and only advance once you've demonstrated perfect technique in a session. So I hope that makes sense. Basically, you're identifying the specific cues you want to make sure you get. Make sure you get them for all reps and sets in a session. Then you can advance, and by advance I mean go up and load, for example. All right, so hopefully that wasn't too confusing. That's what I was thinking of on that.

Philip Pape: 11:24

Number nine is Creating your own meal matrix, your own mix and match. So I have a guide that I give to a lot of folks and if you want it, just shoot me a message and it gives you example meal plans. But it also gives you list of foods by macro and then you can mix and match. But I want you to do this for yourself, based on what you like and based on what you eat a lot. So a customized grid, let's say, of protein, carbs, fats. You could even have a separate category for fruits and vegetables, whatever categories you want. Heck, I mean, if you're struggling to get your fruits, make a fruit category and then create mix and match of those to give you your meal plan. I mean, it's as simple as that.

Philip Pape: 12:08

But a lot of people don't even go to that step. They jump right to trying to create their own plan for what to eat. And then they get confused and overwhelmed with so many foods out there. Limit it to the foods that you know and love, that you're going to shop for. Create your own matrix, all right.

Philip Pape: 12:18

The next one is pretty cool. This is number 10. You know how different foods of different calorie density will have much more or much fewer calories for the volume. So, for example, a tablespoon of peanut butter is going to have way more calories than a tablespoon of popcorn. So I want you to create your own reference of calorie equivalent portions. So take some different foods that you like to eat and, in macro factor, whatever food logger you're using, just log the same calories and see how much volume you get for those calories. In other words, see how much you're able to eat for those calories. And the idea is then you can compare what's more calorie dense versus what's more high volume nutrient dense and then you can decide. Okay, here are the swaps that I can make to focus more on usually protein and high fiber and high satiety things, but sometimes you might be surprised. For example, people are often surprised that potatoes are like the highest satiety food in terms of volume and calories. So create your own personal reference of calorie equivalent foods. All right, I'm going to continue here. I've got 15 more. This is a long list and again, I only want you to pick one or two that really stand out to you and you can review this and you can go to our Facebook group and I'll give you the entire guide for free.

Philip Pape: 13:38

Number 11, I want you to take your current training program and for maybe not every movement, but for some movements where there might be sometimes an equipment availability issue at the gym or maybe it gives you a lot of fatigue and sometimes you want to swap it out For whatever reason, I want you to identify a swap exercise, a swap, a different lift that can swap in for any given lift in your program where you might have to do that, so that you have a backup plan so that you don't make an excuse, so that you can still do the movement pattern but allow yourself to adapt to equipment availability and other factors that may cause you to need to switch it out Again, like low back fatigue or something like that. All right, just have something, so you have no excuses. Number 12, this is kind of fun. This is really about cooking methods. I want you to prep your protein sources. Number 12, this is kind of fun. This is really about cooking methods. I want you to prep your protein sources using different cooking methods than you're used to. So if you always cook the same way, I want you to find a couple other ways, whether it's grilled, baked, sous vide, boiled, stewed, whatever. Find a couple cooking methods and I want you to prepare your protein sources differently and then see how it affects your satisfaction, the experience. You might just find that there is a new way that you're going to want to eat certain proteins by doing this. Just experiment with different cooking methods, but just pick one thing that is a protein heavy recipe.

Philip Pape: 15:10

Number 13 is a shopping cart strategy for the grocery store. So check this one out. Try this one out. I want you to divide your shopping cart into three sections. Now you can do this by maybe using your own bags and just have the bags ready to go. Some grocery stores allow you to pre-check as you go along. Whatever allows you to do this, maybe visually One section's for protein, one's for produce, right fruits and vegetables and one's for everything else, and they're evenly divided. I want you to fill the protein first and the produce first before you do the third section. That's it. I don't even want you to shop anywhere other than the protein and the produce and fill those up all the way to those full third and third before we do the third section, just to see what that does for your mindset on prioritizing those types of foods.

Philip Pape: 15:59

Number 14 is about tracking. I want you to track a non-scale measure and I talk about this a lot on the show right Progress photos, performance metrics, energy, hunger, digestion, sleep but I want you to just double down right now on one thing that you think is low-hanging fruit, that you have not been tracking, that is affecting you. For a lot of people this might be, for example, sleep quality and say I am going to track several measures of sleep quality starting today. Now you could use it if you have like an aura ring or a sleep tracker, for example. Or you can just keep it very simple and say when I wake up in the morning, I'm just gonna give myself a one to 10 rating on my sleep quality and I am going to track that to understand my patterns. What am I doing that affects sleep? What can I change, how can I update my sleep routine, and so on. That's just one example. You can pick any non-scale measure you want, whatsoever that you're maybe neglecting, and I want you to double down on it right now and create a little portfolio of that one thing that you want to track and decide other measures that might relate to it. If that helps, all right.

Philip Pape: 17:03

The next idea I had is about meal prep efficiency, because a lot of you will prep on the weekends and I hear complaints sometimes that meal prep takes too long, which is insane. It shouldn't be the case. It should be that meal prep saves you time during the week, but some of you may be doing it inefficiently. So I would take your meal prep, which should be pretty systematic. You want to focus on batch cooking right? Batch cooking some proteins, vegetables, maybe starches, and time yourself and see if you can't get it under an hour. And if you're already under an hour, see if you can't get it to half an hour and really set yourself a stretch goal. Not I don't want you rushing through the kitchen and like potentially injuring yourself, but think of meal prep efficiency as its own process related goal in and of itself. Now, if you enjoy meal prep itself as a stress relieving activity and you want it to take time, ignore this one. But if you think you don't have enough time and you want this to be more efficient, then you've got to track the efficiency and see what you can change and look for ideas to make it more efficient. I mean, I meal prep in like 20, 30 minutes, and that doesn't always include cooking time, but while things are cooking I'm doing all this other stuff anyway, all right.

Philip Pape: 18:11

The next one number 16, is for folks who are still struggling to get enough whole foods in their diet. Maybe they're a little bit picky, maybe they just have too much processed food laying around, whatever. And this is to give yourself a points system and I'm not talking about Weight Watchers here. Okay, I'm not saying points for all the different foods, not talking about Weight Watchers here. Okay, I'm not saying points for all the different foods. Just give yourself your own simple point system related to the minimum amount of whole foods you want to eat every day. And this could be as simple as every time you pick an ingredient you know, like your main protein, your main side, whatever that you give yourself a point if it's a whole food, and every time you choose a processed food, that is either a negative point or just no points. So just keep it super simple and the idea is you have a minimum score every day. So I would take how, look at your food log and if you're like, hey, I don't need enough whole foods, I wanna have at least two more servings or meals or snacks or whatever that have whole foods, set yourself that point difference as your goal. Right, like I want to get up to this level and that's a different way to take your food log and get value out of it, from the awareness to see am I eating nutritionally what I intend to eat, Not just calories and macros? All right, the next one is super important.

Philip Pape: 19:29

I call it movement integration. This is where we make excuses that we can't get enough steps during the day because we don't have time, and I always say, well, can you get steps while doing something else? Can you systematically add in steps without disrupting your workflow for the day? For example, if you're on calls, if you're on Zoom, if you're on your phone, if you're scrolling social media, if you're watching Netflix, can those things be incorporated along, you know, stacked along with movement? So, movement integration. I want you for this idea just identify points throughout your daily routine, sit down, look at your schedule, say, okay, this point, this point, in this point, I could potentially add some movement in, and I'm not going to disrupt anything. I'm not going to disrupt anything. It's really great. Two for one to stop making excuses on getting more movement, all right.

Philip Pape: 20:13

The next one is a little more nuanced. It has to do with hunger and satiety. What I want, what I thought of here for this idea this is number 18, is to give yourself a score for your meal size. Now, this is this. This might sound a little tricky, but, and it could be just based on calories. But the problem with calories is it doesn't account for volume. So you could make it based on grams, if you're weighing everything, for example, and what I want you to do is say, okay, my lunch was 300 grams of food, my snack was 150, my dinner was 700. And what you can do is just give that a simple relative score of meal size, right, and then, based on that meal size, see how it correlates with your hunger levels. Now, this might sound a little bit complicated, but it's. It's an objective way to tie volume and timing with your hunger, especially if you're like, oh, I always get hungry at 3 pm. Well, just do this for a few days. Document your meal size as just you know. It could be a one, two or three. It doesn't even have to be super granular. Just say that this a little tiny snack is a one, this is a two, this is a three. Now again, be careful If you eat a Hershey's bar that's not that maybe isn't a one, that might be a two because of all the calories and then you correlate it with your, your hunger levels. So that that's what I had there. I don't know how helpful that idea is, but I had it on my list. All right, number 19,.

Philip Pape: 21:40

It's going to sound a little similar to the previous one I had about filming your lifts, but this is what I want you to do is take one accessory or isolation movement. So forget about the compounds. This is more for the smaller lifts, and I want you to focus on one technical aspect of that. You can film yourself, you can compare it to videos, whatever, and I want you to focus on progressing that thing. So, for example, a bent over barbell row I recently worked on that and said I need to focus on the angle that my back is bent over and to truly do a proper row where I'm pulling it up to mid back, as opposed to kind of a cheater row where my back angle is up high and I film myself and I watch and I'm like my back's still too high there. What do I? I watch and I'm like, oh, my back's still too high there. What do I need to do? Oh, I need to stand on a pad right A three, a two inch pad so that the bar doesn't touch the ground, so I can bend over enough right. Just take one of those accessory lifts that you're like, ah, I don't quite have this, and really dive all into it. Go watch videos, look at different videos from different people explaining it Long explainer videos and just really dive in and become an expert at that one lift, ask for questions, talk to your coach, et cetera, and really systematically develop that one thing as a skill and then move on to the next one after you've mastered it. Okay, number 20.

Philip Pape: 23:02

Now you guys are going to love this, because you listen to the Wits and Weights podcast and I am bombarding you with constant information and knowledge. Are you doing anything with this and do you even know how to do something with it because you don't even have the information. What do I mean is I want you to build a personal database of evidence-based nutrition information. I want you to have your own. It could be simple. It could be a notes app in your phone. It could be a notes app in your phone. It could be a Google Doc. It could be an email to yourself that you keep adding to Whatever makes sense for you as you're listening to this show and any others. I want you to add one new research-based fact every week. I mean you could add more. I don't want you to go crazy where you're like every day listening to 10 podcasts and adding 100 things. I want you to add like one per week and think about how it practically applies to you. If it doesn't seem like it's relevant or you don't really care whatever, don't add it to your list. Put something on there that you are going to take action on. I'm not even talking about the action taking right now. I'm just saying keep track of those things all in one place so that you can go back and re-review them, get it fresh in your mind, and sometimes that can be a catalyst for taking action. All right, we're getting to the end of the list. I have five left for you. I know this is long.

Philip Pape: 24:12

Number 21 is to create a structured recovery routine. So we talk about having a training routine. We talk about sometimes even having a sleep routine, although very few people do that. I'm talking about creating a recovery routine, and so what this would look like is just like you have your workout logs and you're you know you prep for your four workouts a week or whatever. I want you to have a time dedicated to your recovery, or at least a review of what you're doing for your recovery that prescribes for you specific actions you are taking. So this could be your recovery training routine could have reminders for when to get ready for bed, for wearing your blue blocking glasses, for cutting off your Wi-Fi, for doing your breathing exercises or your meditation. Heck, it could even have going for walks in there, and it's like having a workout routine that's not focused on working out but instead focused on recovery. Does that make sense? This may not be for everyone, but I thought it could be helpful for those of you struggling to recover to actually put it down on paper.

Philip Pape: 25:18

All right, number 22 is a rest period tracker. Now a lot of you struggle with recovery or not being able to get all the reps because you're not resting long enough between sets. You know who you are. For those of you who get your three, four, five minutes or more between a lot of your exercises, or as little as two to three on isolation work, you're probably good. You don't need this one. But for those of you who know for a fact you probably only take 30 seconds of rest or 60 seconds of rest, I want you to put together a way to track your rest periods and ensure that you're doing them. Now, for many of us, this is our workout app or notebook, and some of our workout apps have rest timers, but even then, there's not really a good way to track the rest periods. Some apps I've seen actually do have them built in, but most don't. So you've got to come up with a way to effectively check off the fact you have your rest period. So one way you can do this is take your workout for the coming week and put down on paper how long you are going to rest minimum between every single set. I know it takes work to do this, but just put it down on paper, put little check boxes and then when you go to the gym, have that along with your workout log and make sure that you are actually, you know, not lying to yourself that you're doing the rest and you're checking it off. And I'd recommend at least three minutes between big lifts and at least two minutes between smaller lifts, just to start there. And now you can track your rest periods as their own training variables systematically and make sure number one, you're doing them and number two, that isn't the reason you're not getting your reps or not recovering. All right.

Philip Pape: 26:51

Number 23 is for those who always have trouble getting enough protein, and the easy answer is well, you simply need to have enough servings of protein throughout the day, enough meals throughout the day that have protein to get it in. Another simple strategy is to make sure you are day that have protein to get it in. Another simple strategy is to make sure you are starting with protein early and getting it through. What I'm going to tell you here for number 23 is to meal plan just your protein. So some of you you hear meal planning. You're like I don't want to do that. Okay, I get it. All I want you to do is meal plan, just your protein. What that means is you're going to sit down and for tomorrow, right now, for tomorrow, you're going to say what protein am I eating, how much, and when? That's it? Okay, just very rough it, rough, rough, ball rough, park it. I can't even think straight here, ball park it, ball park it and say, okay, I'm going to have my turkey and eggs here, and then I'm going to have my protein shake here and it's going to be one and a half scoops. I'm going to have my chicken for lunch and it's going to be 125 grams, and so on and so forth, and really just do that. And if you can't hit your protein, doing it ahead of time, without emotion, from an objective sense, then you've just discovered your problem. It's simply a matter of logically getting it in there in the right places, the right amounts with the right frequency. So that's a protein meal planning idea. All right.

Philip Pape: 28:14

Idea number 24. It might sound a little bit redundant with some of the others regarding training, but this is a simple way to do this. This is a movement quality score. So when you're in the gym, what you can do in the note in your app or your notebook is rate the movement quality for the exercise and I would just suggest a one to 10 scale. Now you could get you can get crazy with this you could like break it down into all the different cues, like we talked about before, but I would just keep it simple and say, okay, overall for this exercise today, all the sets that I just did, what was my movement quality? And then you can decide am I going to use that to hold me back from progressing next time or, more likely, I'm going to use that to decide which movements need the most focus? That's really the whole point of this one. It's mapping out your movement quality across all your movements and finding out that, oh, my barbell good mornings have pretty low quality, or my push press or overhead press is pretty low quality compared to others. So that's the one objective that I should probably focus on. The problem is, if you don't do that, it's hard necessarily to know after the fact which one you were most or least happy with, because you've done all these movements. And then the week goes by and you've done 20 different movements. So track on a scale of one to 10, the movement quality and then use that to decide which ones need more work, all right.

Philip Pape: 29:29

And then my last idea is really about thinking of nutrition as a thing that you want to plan for on a weekly basis, kind of like your budget or your work schedule, your meetings, the activities for your kids you know kids, your grocery shopping, it's all part of that. And so what I'm suggesting for this last idea is could you create a weekly ritual that combines all the things you need to do all in one to be really efficient? So meal prep, food preparation, optimizing your environment, your kitchen environment, and then planning for the week with whatever ideas from today or any other ideas you want for your meal planning. So what I'm saying is meal prep, environment and meal planning kind of all in one, say, hour-long session. That's super efficient. So while the chicken is in the oven roasting, you are organizing your pantry and then you go ahead and plan out how that chicken fits into your plan for the week, just putting it down in your schedule with yourself as like your weekly nutrition ritual. Does that make sense? Sometimes we think of these as a whole bunch of different things I have to do. I'm so overwhelmed. I just want you to think of it as one combined thing that gets you a three for one or four for one with your planning for the week.

Philip Pape: 30:47

All right, those are the 25 creative ideas and some key themes you're going to notice if I haven't put you to sleep or lost you by now is making choices that you want, whether you call them healthy choices, nutritious choices, making those the path of least resistance. In other words, those are the default things that are the easiest thing for you to do. That's number one. Number two is turning these things into fun games. I mean, you notice how much gamification and logging and strategy with numbers I'm talking about. Now. If that's not for you, great, it's not for you. But if you want to, you can turn your nutrition and training into a game in so many different ways. Number three the third out of four themes here that I noticed is using the environmental design to your advantage, your system. That's what we're doing. We're setting up your system to work for you, reduce friction. And then number four is building those systems that then work for your life and not thinking you have to follow someone else's plan if it's not for you.

Philip Pape: 31:45

So the power of all of these is you can just start small, pick one idea that resonates with you and again, the whole guide is gonna be printed out in a PDF downloadable. I'm going to post it in the Facebook group. All you have to do is join totally free, and you can find it there. But pick one thing, see how it feels. See how it fits you. One thing See how it feels, see how it fits you, adjust it and, if you like it great, talk about it. Tweak it. Come up with your own ideas, talk to people about it, share it. Right. We're not trying to overhaul your entire life on January 1st. We are trying to find clever ways to make fitness fit into your life forever. Now.

Philip Pape: 32:21

One last thought I had is about lateral thinking, and I know this episode's getting long, but lateral thinking will make conventional approaches also work better, because when you start looking at problems creatively, you develop what engineers call solution patterns. Right. You become better at solving all kinds of challenges, not just the ones related to fitness, and so this could help you everywhere in your life. All right, as we begin 2025, I challenge you to think differently about your fitness goals Instead of forcing yourself into someone else's systems. Use these strategies, these creative ideas, to build an approach that works for you, and remember, the most sustainable solution is rarely the most obvious one.

Philip Pape: 33:00

Don't make excuses. Don't say you can't do something. Say how can I do it? And what if it works a different way? Sometimes you have to look at things sideways to move forward. All right, so again, join our Facebook group. I'd love to see you in there. I'd love to hear from you, I'd love to hear how you're applying these ideas. Or if you just want to join and grab the guide, that's fine too, and you can connect with others who are using these strategies as well. Happy New Year. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember sometimes the best solutions come from asking the craziest questions. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The 12-Month Fat Loss and Muscle Gain Blueprint for Your Best Physique in 2025 | Ep 260

Download my free Precision Fat Loss Guide with the 6 core fat loss strategies customized for your experience, goals, and lifestyle (or go to witsandweights.com/free)

—

Stuck in a bulking and cutting loop without lasting results? Ready to map out 2025 for sustainable gains and fat loss? Want a proven plan to build your dream physique?

Philip (@witsandweights) delivers a powerful end-of-year gift: a complete periodization blueprint designed to help you build muscle, lose fat, and achieve sustainable fitness success. He shares the five transformative phases of the yearlong plan, from building foundational habits in body recomp to strategically timed fat loss, anabolic muscle building, and more.

Learn how to align your nutrition, training, and lifestyle with each phase to create a roadmap for lifelong progress. Whether your goal is to get lean, pack on serious muscle, or overhaul your physique, this provides the step-by-step plan to crush your goals in 2025.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

03:31 Phase 1: Body recomp and the power of building systems
06:11 The role of tracking
09:28 Phase 2: Precision fat loss strategies for sustainable progress
16:58 Phase 3: Beach-ready maintenance for recovery and celebration
20:58 Phase 4: Six months of anabolic muscle building for transformative gains
28:32 Phase 5: Mini cut for the finishing touch on your dream physique
35:49 The principles for success
40:15 Outro

Episode resources:

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

• Watch this video on setting up MacroFactor for your initial recomp (maintenance) phase

• Download Boostcamp to access 70+ evidence-based workouts
  

Your Year-Long Plan for Fat Loss and Muscle Gain in 2025

What if you could map out your entire year to strategically transform your physique? Instead of randomly bouncing between bulking and cutting, this 12-month blueprint takes the guesswork out of building muscle and losing fat. In this article, I’ll break down the exact phases from my latest podcast episode to help you make 2025 your best year yet.

This isn’t about quick fixes or trendy diets. It’s about sustainability, precision, and long-term results. Whether you’re looking to get leaner, stronger, or completely overhaul your body composition, this plan is your guide to success.

Why a Year-Long Plan Beats Short-Term Fitness Goals

Most people start the year with vague resolutions, like "lose weight" or "gain muscle," but they lack the structure to make those goals a reality. A year-long periodized approach:

• Builds habits and systems for long-term sustainability.

• Aligns with your body’s natural rhythms and energy needs throughout the year.

• Prevents burnout by alternating between focused phases of fat loss, maintenance, and muscle building.

With this plan, you’ll not only see physical results but also develop the skills and confidence to continue improving year after year.

Phase 1: Body Recomp (January–February)

This initial 8-week phase sets the foundation for success by focusing on body recomposition and habit-building.

Goals:

• Establish consistent habits: strength training, protein intake, fiber, and hydration.

• Maintain calories to prime your body for fat loss or muscle building.

• Track progress to build awareness without stress.

Why not start with fat loss? Without these systems in place, any progress you make will likely be temporary. Use this time to align your habits and learn how your body responds to maintenance.

Phase 2: Precision Fat Loss (March–May)

After building a solid foundation, it’s time for a targeted fat loss phase. Over these 12 weeks, aim for a weight loss rate of 0.5–0.75% of your body weight per week to maximize fat loss while retaining muscle.

Key Strategies:

1. Personalized Targets: Use tools like MacroFactor to determine your calorie deficit and macros.

2. Flexible Dieting: Build a plan that fits your lifestyle, including planned breaks or refeeds to stay consistent.

3. Strength Training: Maintain high-intensity training to preserve muscle mass.

Fat loss doesn’t have to feel miserable. The goal is to align your plan with your preferences and keep hunger manageable for sustainable progress.

Phase 3: Beach-Ready Maintenance (June)

This short 2-week phase acts as a transition between fat loss and muscle building.

Objectives:

• Replenish glycogen stores and restore energy.

• Stabilize your metabolism at maintenance calories.

• Celebrate your progress and showcase the results of your hard work.

This phase also gives you a mental reset before diving into a longer muscle-building phase.

Phase 4: Anabolic Muscle Building (July–December)

The magic happens here. Spend at least six months focused on building muscle to increase your metabolic rate, improve body composition, and create a physique you can maintain for life.

Principles:

1. Slow and Steady Gains: Aim for a weight gain rate of 0.3–0.5% of your body weight per week to maximize muscle while minimizing fat.

2. Target Weak Points: Use progressive overload and prioritize muscle groups that need extra attention.

3. Prioritize Recovery: Optimize sleep, manage stress, and adjust training intensity to avoid burnout.

This phase is where your physique transforms. Trust the process and commit to the long-term rewards.

Phase 5: Mini-Cut Shred (January–February 2026)

Wrap up the year with a short, 6-week mini cut to shed any extra fat gained during muscle building and reveal your leaner, more muscular physique.

Approach:

• Aggressive but Controlled: Target a fat loss rate of ~1% of your body weight per week.

• Strategic Cardio: Add light cardio sessions to support your calorie deficit without compromising recovery.

• Sustainability: Keep protein intake high and focus on retaining muscle while dropping fat.

This final phase sharpens your results and sets you up for another year of success.

Why This Blueprint Works

This 12-month plan combines evidence-based principles with real-world flexibility. It’s not just about achieving a better physique—it’s about learning how your body responds to different phases of training and nutrition. With this knowledge, you’ll be empowered to make adjustments and sustain your results for years to come.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're tired of jumping from one fitness phase to another without a real plan, bulking for a few months, cutting for a few weeks, never quite getting the results you want, this episode is for you. What if I told you there's a strategic way to plan your entire year to finally achieve that physique you've been chasing? Today, I'm sharing my complete periodization blueprint for 2025 or any 12-month period that will help you build muscle and lose fat more effectively than random approaches. Whether you're looking to get leaner or add serious muscle, or completely transform your physique, this episode will give you the exact roadmap to make 2025 your best year yet. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today is my end of year gift to you as we head into a new year, 2025, a strategic periodized plan for building your best physique over a 12-month period. Now, how about, instead of jumping straight into a diet or even an intentionally designed but aggressive fat loss phase in January, like everyone else, what if you took a more calculated approach, one that will make future fat loss even easier, that works with your body's natural rhythms and the seasons, builds lasting habits and systems and creates sustainable results. That's exactly what you're getting today, and if that's not what you're looking for, this is not the episode for you. And to get a head start on the fat loss phase which, if you follow my plan, will start in about eight weeks from the start of this plan, I've created something pretty unique. It is my new Precision Fat Loss Guide that acts as a decoder ring where you pick and choose your goals, lifestyle and personal tendencies to pick the best of among six core fat loss strategies. To get your free copy of the Precision Fat Loss Guide and get a head start on that, click the link in my show notes or go to winstonweightscom and click free stuff. All right, let's start building the mental muscles so we can have better physical muscle and, overall, better lean physique over the next 12 months.

Philip Pape: 2:18

What we're going to cover today is five phases to map out for the next 12 months. The first phase is going to be body recomp, and this is January to February. Now again, if you're starting this in the middle of the year or some other time, it's fine. This is just hypothetical. January through February body recomp. Phase two is going to be precision fat loss. So that'll be March through May. And then phase three is your beach ready maintenance and that is in June, followed by an anabolic muscle building phase from July all the way to December. And then and I know I'm cheating a little bit we're going to do a mini cut shred January to February, the following year. Now it's a little bit more than 12 months, but the reason I'm doing that is most of you are going to want to build muscle all the way through the holidays. You can obviously cut that phase a little bit shorter if you need to or want to to fit in the shred earlier, but most people aren't going to care. You want to go all the way through, say, christmas, the New Year's, and that's what it's going to look like. A lot of this is flexible. We're going to dive into each phase and understand how they work together to create a solid physique and really give you a strategy that you can then rinse and repeat for the rest of your life.

Philip Pape: 3:29

If you want Phase one body recomp this is an eight-week phase Now. It can be six, it can be 12. With my clients it ranges from six to 10 usually. So an eight-week phase to create the foundation of your habits, while also improving your body composition. Now I know what you're thinking. Why aren't we just starting with fat loss right away? I got to lose the weight. I got to lose the fat A super common request.

Philip Pape: 3:56

Here's the thing Without the system, without the habits in place, any progress you make later will be temporary. It's going to go back to the way it was before. You're going to repeat the cycle that you've repeated in the past over and over again. We don't want to do that. So the philosophy here is simple Start where you are, not where you think you should be, and then focus on fundamentals. Focus on those habits, not little hacks and extreme approaches, just the fundamentals. For some of you, that's going to be quite a bit of behavior change over that eight weeks, and for others it's going to be much smaller. Regardless, we're going to take a tiny habits approach to get there and you're going to start where you're at. Consistency is going to carry you through forever. It's going to beat perfection all or nothing any day of the week, and it'll give you the power that you need to do this yourself. So we're talking about nailing the basics protein at every meal, hitting your fiber intake, staying hydrated, things that sound boring and not exciting at all. Training, training consistently, three, four days a week, whatever makes sense. These, however, are the bedrock of body recomposition and then, ultimately, body composition in general.

Philip Pape: 5:07

Second, we are going to take advantage of your potential for recomp while setting these things up. So, unless you're going to jump right into a muscle building phase which is your right and an option you can just skip this and the fat loss phase and go right into muscle building. I know a lot of you are looking to shed some excess fat first, get a little bit leaner and then build muscle. So that's what we're talking about. So we want to take advantage of your potential to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, initially without trying to diet, without trying to build muscle, but while setting up these systems, because at maintenance calories, eating the same amount of calories that you burn, so the scale weight doesn't change beginners and intermediates can actually burn fat and build muscle at the same time. Now, if you're super advanced, it's going to take a lot longer to do that, but in this case you are primed for it, even advanced lifters. They can tighten up and improve some definition through very meticulous consistency, but we're going for body recomp and we're going for building systems.

Philip Pape: 6:06

The third benefit, I guess, of this phase is we are going to track. We're going to track all the things we want to track, but we're going to make it as low stress as possible. And you might say, well, that's kind of contraindicated, because tracking itself is stressful. Well, no, it doesn't have to be. And if anything, the way I like to track allows you to free up decision-making and free up emotional responses the rest of your week and the rest of the month and give you the confidence to know what to do when you go into fat loss. And all of that actually reduces your chronic stress. It gives you confidence, which is going to reduce your stress and that's going to increase your metabolism. So we love that, and I personally love Macrofactor as an app to track food and weight, because it also then gives you your metabolic rate, your expenditure, your metabolism. It's the only app that does that in real time, dynamically, based on your real data, and all you've got to do is put in your weight and food daily. Yes, daily, because daily is shown to have the best results for people and gives you the most confidence and precision. And we're not going to obsess over what happens every day in terms of our scale weight, but we're going to track it. Think of this as a calibration phase, where you're just aligning everything so that the next few phases there's almost no way you can go off track because you've got everything set up really well for success. So that's phase one.

Philip Pape: 7:29

So phase one you're going to spend eight weeks at maintenance, going for body recomp, without trying to diet, without trying to gain, and what you're going to do during that time is going to highly vary based on your context, but I'll give you my big low-hanging fruit list. Number one you're going to highly vary based on your context, but I'll give you my big low-hanging fruit list. Number one you're going to be strength training using an effective program of progressive overload. Now, that's outside the scope of this podcast to get into all the details on that. I have other episodes that talk about that but you've definitely got to be training so that we can build muscle and then hold on to that muscle during fat loss.

Philip Pape: 8:02

Number two we already talked about tracking your food. Along with that tracking, you're then going to understand your macros. We need sufficient protein, we need sufficient carbs, we need sufficient calories and you're going to eat to that level of maintenance and if it seems like a lot of food, that's okay. We want to slowly get there so that we're fully energized and well-fed and recovered before we go into fat loss. Number three is going to be being active and moving right, getting your steps in. For you, that might be going from 4,000 a day to 6,000. Another person might be six to eight or eight to 10. I would try to add 2,000 steps a day at first, make it sustainable and then get even more than that to aim between eight and 10,000. And then, finally, we have things like sleep and stress. Now, this is a huge topic. We thousand. And then finally, we have things like sleep and stress.

Philip Pape: 8:47

Now, this is a huge topic. We're not going to cover it all today, but the idea is, if this is a red flag for you, whether it's because of unavoidable stress in your life or because of things that are fully within your control, we need to do little things like taking a break between our meetings and taking a breath and calming down and finding time to ourselves, finding time for play, those sorts of things that will help manage our stress. So all of that is getting normalized and calibrated during this first phase and that is why we don't want to be doing fat loss initially. So if you want to know more about that, send me a message. I'll send you one of the previous episodes where we've talked about setting up for maintenance. I have a few of them and it depends on what exactly you're looking for and I'll give that to you.

Philip Pape: 9:28

All right, so phase two after that, first eight weeks. Now we're into March. This is the fat loss phase. This is the moment you've been waiting for and I'm gonna default this to a 12-week phase. But, as I mentioned earlier, if you download my guide, you'll see that there are six different approaches. You could take different durations, different rates, different philosophies based on your situation, but we're going to just talk in generalities here. Okay, so let's assume 12 weeks. I find that 12 weeks is enough to get a decent amount of fat loss, but not so long that it becomes a little bit of a grind and you get tired of it mentally and physically. So we're going to drop fat strategically and the only way to do that is to drop scale weight while holding onto that valuable muscle mass.

Philip Pape: 10:12

And here's the key philosophy most people miss. Fat loss doesn't need to feel like punishment. It doesn't need to feel miserable. I won't say that it is a walk in the park and that it's like going to Disney World other than Disney World in the summer or in the holidays, but it doesn't feel, it's not going to feel like that, but it also shouldn't be miserable. So we want to build a plan that aligns with your lifestyle. That just says okay, let me acknowledge what's happening. Do I love to go out to eat? Do I have travel coming up? Do I like to eat these specific foods? Do I love carbs? Do I like to shift my calories around, based on the day, whatever it is, and build a plan that goes with it. And we're going to focus on three core areas.

Philip Pape: 10:56

So I'm going to touch in more detail here on things that I just alluded to in the first phase so that you have those details. So first is the rate of loss. Using macro factor, for example, you could just plug in the rate of loss you want per week and it'll give you the targets. If you're doing it by hand, you're going to just have to do some math, and what we're targeting here for most people is around 0.5 to 0.75% of your body weight per week over 12 weeks. So you can do the math for yourself and you can realize, okay, that might be 10, 15, 20 pounds, depending on your body weight.

Philip Pape: 11:34

Some people can go a little more aggressive, some people less. And again, if you download my precision fat loss guide, it has all of these prescribed out and written out and all of that. And I see people trying to rush it. So if I say a half to 1%, they're like I'm going to go 1%. So I usually say a half to 0.75% to kind of constrain that and really leaning more toward the half percent. And when you take half percent of your body weight times 12 weeks, it gives you a certain fat loss. I would just say, whatever that number is, be happy with it. Don't try to target a specific number, because after you build muscle later on we're going to do another small fat loss phase anyway and the building of muscle is going to help you be leaner, regardless of the scale weight anyway. So we want to get like some fat loss here, some decent fat loss, but it's not all of it. So quote, unquote, right, and in fact, the slower you go, the more easy it's going to be to preserve that muscle and to keep your hunger totally manageable, making it seem like, oh, it's not so bad, I'm getting through this very consistently, no big deal, as opposed to oh my God, I have to binge those donuts right now. So that's one core area of fat loss.

Philip Pape: 12:42

The second core area is implementing any sort of breaks or refeeds or permission to yourself to go ahead and eat more calories and eat up to maintenance when you need to. Now it's better that those are planned in than just happen randomly, because when they happen randomly, that is the opposite of consistency. But when you plan them in, when you say, look, every day, every week, I have two days of the week where I know I'm just going to want to eat more, you might not even know what those days are. So you're going to plan your calories to suggest five kind of normal or low-ish days and two higher days, and that's what your plan is going to be predicated on, whether that's like one maintenance calorie day every week, one a month, a whole week every month, whatever. Those are all in my Precision Fat Loss Guide.

Philip Pape: 13:28

Again, if you go into there, we're not talking about cheat days, we're talking about psychological resets. Some people call them hedonic deviations, where you give yourself a planned day of deviating up to so you can eat more food. You might call it a strategic metabolic boost. Whatever you want to call it, you're not going to increase your metabolism artificially higher doing this, but you are going to slow down and stop any metabolic adaptation for a moment before it continues back. But it's more for the mental break and sustainability.

Philip Pape: 14:02

And then the third core tenet here of the fat loss phase and this is probably the most crucial, to be honest is we are training to retain muscle. Your resistance training intensity stays high and intensity means a combination of things, but it primarily means you are training hard, close to failure, using progressive overload, still using your compound lifts and your accessories and all the same stuff. You don't completely change your training program. Most people can actually continue with exactly what they were doing in the fat loss and what they'll find is the first few weeks, maybe even the first few months, they can still make progress, especially if this is the first time you're doing it. You might actually build muscle and strength even while in fat loss, because remember, you've only spent a couple months in the recomp phase. You're still in that newbie gains phase. If you're an intermediate lifter, however, you may not gain strength or muscle, but you should easily be able to hold on to the muscle, and so your lifts will either slightly go up or maybe they'll pause. But remember that you're also losing weight. So your relative strength is holding or potentially going up, if that makes sense, and then you're holding on to the muscle. You're eating plenty of protein, all that good stuff, all right. So your progress in the gym become your indicators for muscle retention, as well as your body measurements to an extent. But remember, you're losing fat at the same time, so take that with a grain of salt, all right.

Philip Pape: 15:25

So we had phase one eight weeks of body recomp, building your habits. Phase two 12 weeks. You got two months, then three months, 12 weeks of fat loss, with a lot of flexibility on how to do that. And again, the actual calories and macros are going to depend on your metabolism and your rate of loss. So go, download Macrofactor. I'll include the link in the show notes. I'll include a video showing you how to set it up for maintenance initially, and then you'll be golden on that. You'll get the right targets for your metabolism. If you use MyFitnessPower chronometer, you're not going to get those targets, you are going to have to guess at them and you're going to be off. You're going to be off and you're going to get frustrated. Okay, so that's phase two. Phase three is beach ready maintenance.

Philip Pape: 16:09

Now, this is just a very short blip. This is a couple weeks. You know, maybe I would say two weeks, but it could be one to three, but let's say two weeks. This is like a little victory lap. Okay, you've achieved your fat loss. You're celebrating. Now You're bringing the calories back up. We're going to replenish that glycogen. We're going to replenish your energy stores. We're going to showcase what you've accomplished so far. And by showcase I don't necessarily mean you have to go on the beach and show off your abs. I mean you're just expressing physically with your physique, even if it's to yourself in the mirror, it doesn't matter that you've worked hard to this point to lose some fat and reveal some of that muscle. And the philosophy is to enjoy the benefits of your hard work and celebrate that win, while priming your body for the most magical phase of your entire life coming up, which is going to be muscle building. But before we get there, let's talk about this short beach ready maintenance phase.

Philip Pape: 17:03

The idea is, I don't like going from fat loss straight to a gain, because that transition is so drastic that both psychologically and physiologically it can cause a lot of second guessing and like misinterpretation of the data. I'd rather you kind of bottom out, then go to maintenance and then go to muscle building and in that couple of week period what you're ending and then go to muscle building and in that couple week period, what you're ending up doing is refilling the glycogen in your muscles and it's going to make your physique look pop a little bit because you're kind of dehydrated and, I'll say, gaunt, almost from having dieted. Now we're going to refill that and you might find, hey, I'm actually pretty darn happy where I'm at and you could stay there for a while. You could stay there for weeks, months, years if you wanted to. I don't recommend it. I recommend going to the next phase and building a ton of muscle, which we're going to talk about, but you could so during this two week maintenance phase. It's a very important phase even though it's short. First, what we're going to do is we're effectively refilling everything without spilling over.

Philip Pape: 18:03

The biggest fear people have is oh, I'm going to gain all this weight back and I'm going to binge on all the foods I've been avoiding. Well, first of all, you haven't been avoiding foods, right, you've simply been scaling things down and being strategic about eating your protein and high satiety foods, like fiber containing foods, like fruits and vegetables. Right, you've been doing that while still having some carbs in your diet. Well, what happens now is the carbs are going to get ramped way up, the protein is going to stay roughly the same, the fats are going to scale up a little bit and the carbs are going to scale up a lot. Okay, and again, we're not getting into the actual numbers of all the macros. I've got guides for that and you can reach out for that. We could talk about your specific plan or just download Macrofactor and it'll give it to you, but the carbs are going to ramp way up and I do not like reverse dieting.

Philip Pape: 18:50

So if you hear people talk about reverse dieting reverse dieting is a way to guess your way up to your maintenance I don't want to guess and I don't have to guess because we've been tracking your metabolism Again. If you're using Macrofactor or if you're doing it by hand on a spreadsheet, you know how many calories you're burning over the last week. So if you're in a 500 calorie deficit, you just have to increase. Add 500 calories back in and now you're at your true dynamic maintenance right now. Now those maintenance calories are going to be lower than they were when you started the fat loss phase.

Philip Pape: 19:24

But why wait to get there? Let's just recover. You're not going to gain weight because it's your maintenance right. And so we're going to increase our targets right to our maintenance, knowing that it's going to climb back to a more recovered, stable level and then probably continue climbing when we go into muscle building. So why wait? Let's recover. And so your protein's still going to be around your normal target of 0.7 to one gram per pound. You're going to see improved muscle definition as your glycogen stores fill, as your cortisol levels drop, your hormones get back to normal.

Philip Pape: 19:53

Right and again, if, depending on your experience in the past and how many times you've cut in bulk in the past, this is like your photo shoot phase, even if you're not taking pictures, right. So, but if you haven't ever built muscle, you're probably not there yet, and I get it. You're like well, I'm not quite happy with my physique, it's okay, we're just getting started. And then the third thing during this phase is learning that there is a sustainable level where you can fine tune your social eating skills, your mindfulness, your level of indulgence, because you have more calories to work with. You're no longer dieting, and so now you understand what it's like to diet. Now you're going to get back to something that feels really solid in terms of energy and food, and you'll want to come to grips with that and see what it feels like, because that's where you would live for the rest of your life if you didn't go out, gone to the next phase and build muscle. Right, and for many people that'll be amazing. Right, you've gotten leaner, you've learned how to eat for fullness, for protein, fiber, and now you can kind of sustain that and it feels great.

Philip Pape: 20:57

But now let's go to phase four, and this is my favorite phase of all, and for some of you, I'm going to skip you right to this. First, instead of fat loss because you only have five or 10 pounds to lose, I don't care about that, and by I I mean you shouldn't care about it either, because gaining five, 10, 15 pounds of muscle is going to serve you much more than just losing five or 10 pounds of fat. If you have to lose 20, 30 or more, that's a different story, okay, and I have an episode I did a long time ago called what should you do first? Uh, but anyway, you could follow this plan, whoever you are listening, and it's going to work for you. So phase four is the anabolic muscle building phase. Now we are into July, because we had two months for recomp, we had three months for fat loss and then we had a couple of weeks for maintenance, and so now we're pushing at just about the middle of the year. So now I usually recommend building muscle for six months minimum. So that's why this is going to take a full six months. Now you can cut back on that a little bit to squeeze in a fat loss phase to like fit the exact 12 months, okay, but it doesn't really matter, because a few weeks here or there is not gonna make a difference. I would just get as much as you can out of the muscle building phase, and so think 24, 26 weeks, right around there. Six months, and this is where the magic happens.

Philip Pape: 22:16

The philosophy is simple but profound, and I talked about this in detail on my last Monday episode, so if you didn't catch that. Go check that out. I talk all about gaining to build muscle and how that makes you leaner and how that prevents you from getting fatter. It's so profound. Building muscle takes time, it takes patience, it takes trading the instant gratification you might've gotten in a fat loss phase for the long-term reward of having that extra lean tissue on your body at a higher scale weight, at a leaner, lower body fat percentage. I mean it's so incredible. Having gone through it myself and gone through several muscle building phases and not having done that till I was in my late 30s and early 40s I'm 44 now. It has only taken me three years or so to build a decent amount of muscle to the point where I'm just walking around quite a bit heavier than I used to and way leaner than I was, and I still have a long way to go, which is very empowering and exciting for me because it gives me a drive to want to keep doing this and chances are you're in that boat as well, if not even in a better position, where it's early on right.

Philip Pape: 23:24

So this is profound and it's amazing and we're going to focus on three elements here during this muscle building phase. The first is slow and steady gains, going at the right rate so that we build a ton of muscle and just a little bit of fat. And I say it that way because you're not going to avoid fat gain altogether, but you can definitely avoid gaining too much fat. How much do I mean? I mean, if you're a beginner, you could probably gain, say, two-thirds to three-quarters of the weight as muscle. How does it sound to gain 10 pounds? And the response is kind of a little bit of freaking out. I get it. I get it, cause that's, as a percentage of your body weight, seems like a lot. But what have I said? Eight of those pounds is muscle. Kind of changes the equation, doesn't it? Because now, yeah, you gain 10 pounds, but seven or eight pounds is muscle, so very little of that is fat. Your body fat percentage just went down, even potentially, before you even cut some of that fat back off. I mean, it's amazing.

Philip Pape: 24:26

So slow and stay is what we want and again, we are going to aim for a rate around for most of you 0.3 to almost 0.5% of your body weight a week Men, women, any age, okay, Because we all have the same propensity to gain muscle. Even if you're 70, you can gain muscle at a decent clip if you've never done this before, believe it or not. So, 0.3 to 0.5% of your body weight a week. Again, if you use macro factor, you just plug in the number and it gives you the targets. Now is faster, better, yes, up to a point Beyond that 0.4 or 0.5%. Now you're flirting with. All you're adding is fat territory, but don't let that scare you from pushing it a little bit, especially if it's your first time, because the fat comes off easy. The muscle is the one that's harder to put on, so why not give yourself the best shot? So that's the first thing. Is that slow and steady rate.

Philip Pape: 25:20

Secondly, we are going to prioritize the weak points during muscle building. What I mean by that is you really want a solid, effective program of progression, so you're taking the most advantage of that anabolic environment. Anabolic meaning growth. You've got lots of calories coming in, protein, carbs, hopefully. You're sleeping well and you're keeping stress manageable, and now you're training hard, three, four or five days a week.

Philip Pape: 25:47

What are you training for? How are you training? How are you progressing? Are you building strength? Are you building muscle? Are you peaking?

Philip Pape: 25:53

There's lots of ways to slice this, and so I like an app called boost camp. It's a workout app. It's a free app if you use it. Use my code wits and weights all one word, please, just to support me. But if you go in that app, you can get free programs that are evidence-based by expert trainers and, honestly, any one of those. If you pick, like you know, four days a week I'm focused on strength and muscle building it's going to spit out a bunch of great programs. So you've got to have the tracking of progression of your strength and muscle. So strength is shown through the numbers going up and muscles shown through your physique being developed. Now you're going to be getting some fat too, so your waist might go up, but we also want to see our biceps going up and our thighs going up right and our chest going up and any other body part that you really care about that you're training. So it's prioritizing and I said prioritize weak points, and what I mean by that is the points that have the most opportunity for growth. You really want to go all in for that and the things that you really want to grow. All right.

Philip Pape: 26:56

The third thing here is recovery becomes paramount, even though this is the irony even though you have a ton of calories coming in and that helps with recovery. You're also training hard. You are training hard. So getting that sleep, managing the stress, getting deloads if that's part of your plan or at least doing resets and such in your training program, keeping yourself fresh, watching for injury, like really making the most of it, so you can continue it and get the six months of pure straight training for muscle. Now things will come up in your life. We're not talking about that. If that happens, there's ways to deal with it. You could take little breaks here and there, not a big deal, but really you want to just keep growing, growing, growing and have a blocked approach to get there. Okay.

Philip Pape: 27:40

And then, once you've done that so now you've gone from like January to December you know you've gained 10, 15, 20 pounds on the scale, a significant portion of which is muscle. You're bigger. You probably have a little bit of extra fat, maybe too much fat, maybe you're like ah, you know I'm getting a little uncomfortable here, that's cool Now. And you've gone through the holidays. You've gone through Thanksgiving, christmas, all that. You've had fun, you've had plenty of calories. Your metabolism has probably ramped way up over that time. Now it's time to do a little mini cut to just shred some of that fat off, okay, and just kind of gently come in at a sustainable spot that is heavier, where you were before. We did the muscle, but you've got more muscle and less fat. So you are leaner, your metabolism is higher, you're able to eat more food and now that's your new set point. It's a beautiful place to be in.

Philip Pape: 28:30

What does this look like? I'm going to suggest a six-week mini cut. It's a really nice, super sustainable in and out. Get it over with finishing touch on a year of hard work. So six weeks isn't that long, it really isn't. And if you went through a 12-week fat loss phase, this is going to be comparable, but it's going to be a little different. It's going to be a little more aggressive, and the reason it's more aggressive is that it's short and we're going to reveal your physique. We're going to get out. You have the metabolic capacity and the muscle mass now to do kind of a quick fat loss phase and just get out, and that's what we're going to do.

Philip Pape: 29:05

So first we're going to talk about the rate of loss. We want something more aggressive here, so I'm going to actually push for that 1% of body weight a week and I would use that as an anchor point. If that's still too aggressive for you, because the calories that it brings you to go lower, and if you're like a bigger dude who you know has tons of muscle and a super high metabolism, you might be able to go 1.2, 1.3%, at least for three or four of the six weeks and have no ill precautions no, no ill repercussions and not lose any muscle mass. Okay, so it's really variable. Going to depend, um, and I do mention that in the fat loss guide as well and we're gonna keep protein high. We're gonna do all the same things. Okay, protein in this case might be even higher. So, like, if you've been at a decent amount of protein, maybe this is the one point in your whole plan for the 12 months where you just jack it up just a little bit. All right, depends on the amount of calories you have to play with, the amount of calories you have to play with, all right. So that's the rate of loss up to that 1% of weight a week.

Philip Pape: 30:08

Second is this is where I the only time I actually suggest you might want to add some cardio in, deliberately right, other than other reasons for health, heart health and whatnot, because you enjoy it actually just to ramp up that metabolism a tiny bit, knowing you're doing it in a short duration so you're not going to adapt to it too much. And so I would add like one or two at least zone two sessions. It doesn't have to be hit, it could just be, you know, kind of a get your heart rate going too fast to have a conversation. Level of exertion on a bike or pushing a prowler around or walking really fast or going on an up incline or wearing a rucksack, any, any of those things apply Other than running, I mean, unless you love to run different situation and that's going to support your deficit. You're not going to overload your recovery in that short period.

Philip Pape: 30:54

Doing it like that, I would mix up the forms of cardio that will make you even less efficient, which means burning more calories, and just give that a shot. Just add that in as a little extra jolt for your calorie burn. And then the final thing is you know we're not chasing perfection, we're not chasing an end point. We're not chasing this is going to be the be all end all physique. All we're doing is taking some of the fat gain that you added in the building phase and reduce it, without going to an extreme but still flirting with what it's like to push and to go a bit aggressively. If this is not for you, what you can do instead during this phase is just do another normal fat loss phase at a slower rate and then make the duration be as long as you need it to be. What's going to happen here is you're going to have gone through every aspect of periodization for nutrition, for gaining, for losing and you'll know what your body feels like and what it takes to do each of those, and from that you can assess hey, this was harder here, but this was easier here.

Philip Pape: 31:58

I really like this. I don't like this. Use those subjective feelings, to be honest, to tell yourself is this the right way to do it for me? Next time I do a fat loss phase, I'm going to go slower, or I'm going to put more breaks in, or I'm going to go more aggressively. Some people love to go super aggressive for like four weeks and they're done right. Or muscle building Heck, I really love that. All the food I get to train hard, I'm going to muscle gain for the next two years. It gives you all this flexibility and awareness and knowledge. It's so amazing and that's why I love having a plan right, because the physical transformation is just a side bonus of all of this. Believe it or not, it is a side bonus.

Jenny: 32:39

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement for all of our health. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 33:25

The first time it happened for me, where I could see some muscle definition, feel a bit lean, feel a little bit more confident in a t-shirt, it was fantastic. But the short-term feeling of that sort of normalizes right, it wears off, then you get used to it. Then you're like okay, that is me now, that's my new identity, now what's next? I think the long lasting benefit here is how each of these phases teaches you something. Each of them builds upon each other. They're interconnected in a way that teaches you how your body ebbs and flows, how you can adjust the way you live to what you want with the year and the season and not ever make it feel like too much of a slog or a sacrifice, even though there are trade-offs. And if you kind of think about each phase right, the initial body comp phase, it's not just about hitting protein or setting up this habit, it's really skills. It's an overall system. If you can do that, you can then make a little change to then go into fat loss. If you can't do that, in other words, if the body recomp phase that we started with where you're at maintenance, is not sustainable, that's a great feedback to tell you that fat loss wouldn't be sustainable. So you're not going to go to fat loss until you've got that figured out. So if it takes you 10, 12, or more weeks to do it, so be it. If you need help, if you need help, if you need a coach, that's the kind of thing that I provide is support and accelerating that process to get you to that, you know. So you don't have to be frustrated. So that's the first phase. And then you think of after the fat loss phase, when you go into maintenance I think we talked about it again it's not just like, okay, I'm going to hold steady. It's now preparing for that mental shift, preparing your body, preparing your mind for the next phase, for the productive muscle building phase, the most productive of your life. To be honest, if you've never done it before, it will change your life. It will change your life.

Philip Pape: 35:16

So every one of these phases has a purpose beyond the obvious. I want you to lean into that and really get deep with it, right, really sit with it and think about it and plan it out, write it down on paper and ask yourself what you're trying to gain here, what you're trying to accomplish, because it's not about the result. The process itself is everything. The result will come easily when the process is nailed down right. And it's this compound effect and it makes the whole journey just so more powerful, so much more than some of the parts, and that's why I wanted to share this with you today.

Philip Pape: 35:48

So, as we wrap up, let's just focus on the overarching principles that make this kind of blueprint work for you. First, sustainability is a non-negotiable. Each phase is designed to be challenging because it has to change you physically and mentally, push you, but never overwhelming. The phrase I've used before is expanding your comfort zone, but never far exceeding it. The second principle is to celebrate that process. Again, do celebrate the results as they come as well, but those are going to be fleeting and few and far in between the process, whether it's, you know, you've nailed a habit that before was a struggle. You know, I go to sleep every night by 9.30, every night. Now I am so proud of that, right, oh, I get 8,000 steps every day. Sometimes it's 10 or 12, but every day I get my 8,000. And maybe it's not every day, maybe it's, you know, three days out of the week. I get my 10,000, whatever that goal is for you. And, yes, even physical changes, seeing the definition slowly morph over time, correlated with objective measures like your body circumference measurements.

Philip Pape: 36:56

Hitting PRs is always fun because you're going to be training and growing a lot, especially during your muscle building phase. Every single session is a win. Even if you don't PR every lift, you know you might have some setbacks. You're going to have a lot of them in every single session because you were constantly growing and getting stronger and building muscle, and so all of the success is cumulative and the wins come fast and furious if you look for them, if you accept them in.

Philip Pape: 37:20

And then the last principle here is I want you to balance the science. You know the here's what you need to do, here's what works according to the evidence which I say all the time and anything you hear on this podcast or any other podcast. I want you to balance that with your intuition and your biofeedback, so important. With your intuition even if that's your feelings, I don't care. Like you know, know yourself with your intuition and with your biofeedback. So biofeedback is a little more objective tracked measures of your stress, your hunger, your digestion, your sleep, your libido and a few others that you might want to track. I want you to balance the two and then let that data because that is your whole data set, that is your evidence Let that inform your decisions right, and always be listening to your body so that you are mentally engaged, and then the consistency comes from that engagement, because then you'll be able to, you know, pivot and jink Is that the word jink From Battlestar Galactica? I forget the word Ships do in space. All right.

Philip Pape: 38:22

So now, as you enjoy the holidays or the end of your celebrations, I want you to come up with your plan for the next 12 months based on this episode. That is your action. If you don't do that, you've missed a massive opportunity. And if you do that, you're going to have questions. And when you have questions, I want you to send me a message on Instagram at witsandweights or you don't use that platform, or prefer Facebook, join our Facebook group it's totally free and ask it there and ask other people who are on the same journey.

Philip Pape: 38:53

Now, in a few weeks from now, exactly six episodes from now, episode 266 on January 6th. I'll be breaking down the six. Get a theme here. Six. I'll be breaking down the six. Get a theme here. Six I'll be breaking down the six core fat loss strategies from the Precision Fat Loss Guide that I mentioned several times earlier. So go download it and there you can pick the exact strategy for your fat loss phase, which again starts around month three of the 12-month plan.

Philip Pape: 39:20

I'm gonna be breaking that down in episode 266 on January 6th, but I want you to click the link in the show notes and download the guide now, get a head start on creating your plan.

Philip Pape: 39:30

I mean, in my opinion, what I put together there is unlike anything out there because it gives you different comparison tables based on your experience, your body comp goals, your lifestyle and your tendencies. On your experience, your body comp goals, your lifestyle and your tendencies. Like, each one has a table that says, of the six strategies, which ones are check marks, which ones are X's for you for that, and at the end of it you'll know oh, this one strategy is what's left, that's best for me, or maybe these two strategies? I can pick one, all right. And then, of course, you have to implement it, and that's part of what we talked about today with phase Two.

Philip Pape: 40:06

So to get your free copy of the precision fat loss guide, click the link at the top of the show notes, or go to wits and weightscom and click free stuff and you'll find it in there All right. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your dream physique isn't built in a day, but it is built with a plan. This is phil Pape and I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The DNA-Based Diet That Uses Epigenetics to Personalize Your Health (Dr. Matt Dawson) | Ep 268

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment to personalize YOUR strategy for fat loss, muscle gain, and physique development, giving you a 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

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Could your DNA determine how effectively you process carbs or fats? Are you overemphasizing the role of genetics in your health journey? How does epigenetics empower you to shape your health destiny?

Philip (@witsandweights) examines the fascinating intersection of genetics, epigenetics, and personalized medicine with Dr. Matt Dawson, physician, entrepreneur, and CEO of Wild Health. They uncover how genes influence health outcomes and the extent to which lifestyle decisions can rewrite the script of DNA. Dr. Dawson explains how Wild Health integrates cutting-edge AI, genomic insights, and precision medicine to optimize performance, longevity, and overall wellness.

Dr. Matt Dawson is the co-founder and CEO of Wild Health, a precision medicine company revolutionizing how we approach health by combining genetic insights, blood markers, and lifestyle factors. A trailblazer in genomics-based care, he has trained thousands of doctors worldwide and is dedicated to helping individuals maximize their health potential.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:15 Impact of lifestyle vs. genetics on health outcomes
4:06 The science behind actionable genetic insights
6:31 Personalizing diet and fitness through genetic testing
10:47 How genetic variations influence athletic performance.
15:35 The influence of genomics on health and lifestyle
18:29 Epigenetics: Unique health paths
21:19 Reversing diabetes with personalized medicine and health optimization
26:29 Leveraging AI for health insights and prevention
31:54 The future of precision medicine with large language models
37:50 Why strong relationships are the ultimate longevity hack
39:36 Outro

Episode resources:

• Wild Health Podcast

• Website: wildhealth.com 

• Instagram: @wildhealthmd 

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/wildhealth
  

Unlocking the Power of DNA-Based Diets to Optimize Your Health

What if your DNA could hold the key to better health, a leaner physique, and more energy? Epigenetics—the way lifestyle influences your gene expression—offers a window into personalized nutrition and training strategies tailored to your body. In this article, we explore how understanding your genetics can help you make smarter decisions about your diet, training, and overall health, based on my recent conversation with Dr. Matt Dawson, co-founder of Wild Health.

Dr. Dawson and his team have pioneered a precision medicine approach that blends genomics, blood work, and lifestyle data to create actionable health plans. But before you assume this is just another health trend, let’s break down what this means for you and how it could transform your approach to fitness and nutrition.

DNA Isn’t Destiny, but It’s a Map

One of the biggest misconceptions about genetics is that your DNA locks you into a specific health trajectory. In reality, only about 20% of your health outcomes are determined by your genes—the other 80% is controlled by what you do. This includes what you eat, how you train, how much you sleep, and how you manage stress.

Your genes provide a roadmap, but lifestyle choices drive the vehicle. For example, certain genetic markers might indicate a predisposition for conditions like Alzheimer’s or insulin resistance, but strategic changes in your diet, exercise, and recovery can help mitigate those risks.

Personalized Nutrition: Superfoods and Kryptonite Foods

Not all foods are created equal, and your DNA might explain why you thrive on one type of diet but struggle with another. Wild Health’s genetic testing identifies:

Superfoods

These are foods that align with your genetic needs. For example, someone with specific SNPs (genetic variations) requiring more vitamin D, vitamin A, omega-3s, and collagen might benefit from eating sardines—a nutrient powerhouse for their genes.

Kryptonite Foods

On the flip side, some foods can cause inflammation or other adverse effects. Dairy and gluten, for instance, may be kryptonite for individuals with specific genetic markers.

This isn’t about trendy elimination diets—it’s about tailoring your food choices to what works best for your unique body.

Why Exercise and Recovery Should Be Personalized

Genetic insights can also inform how you train and recover. Are you better suited for endurance or strength training? Do you need more collagen for joint health or extra recovery time after workouts?

Dr. Dawson shared an example of an NBA player who performed worse on caffeine due to his genetic profile, even though caffeine improves performance for most athletes. Cutting out caffeine allowed him to recover better, sleep more deeply, and optimize his training.

The Science of Epigenetics

Epigenetics explores how lifestyle factors turn certain genes on or off. Your behaviors—like eating more omega-3s or getting consistent resistance training—can literally change how your genes express themselves.

For example, someone with genetic markers for an increased risk of Alzheimer’s can dramatically reduce that risk through targeted lifestyle changes, such as improving insulin sensitivity and maintaining a nutrient-dense diet.

How AI Is Revolutionizing Personalized Health

Wild Health integrates AI and large data sets to make sense of your genetic and biometric data. This allows for highly personalized recommendations. For instance, their platform might detect overtraining patterns through your HRV (heart rate variability) trends and recommend adjustments to prevent injury.

It’s like having a coach who understands not just your workout routine but how your body responds to every rep, meal, and night of sleep.

Is Genetic Testing Right for You?

Genetic testing can offer valuable insights, but it’s not a silver bullet. To get the most out of it:

• Work with a provider who integrates genetic data with other key metrics like blood work, sleep patterns, and lifestyle habits.

• Be prepared to use the insights as a starting point—not as gospel. Test what works for you and adjust based on results.

At the end of the day, the power of personalized health lies in its ability to help you cut through the noise of one-size-fits-all diets and exercise plans. With the right data and guidance, you can focus on what works for your body.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're wondering whether DNA testing could help optimize your diet and health, or if you're skeptical about personalized health recommendations, this episode is for you, because today we're examining what science really tells us about precision medicine with Dr Matt Dawson, an expert in this field. As well as genomics and optimizing performance, you'll learn how epigenetics the way our lifestyle influences gene expression shapes our health outcomes, discover which aspects of diet and lifestyle can actually be personalized through testing, and understand whether this kind of precision approach could benefit you. So, if you want to understand how your behaviors interact with your genes to influence your health, what we're about to share will help you make informed decisions about personalized medicine. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing the science of epigenetics and personalized health with Dr Matt Dawson. Matt is a physician, entrepreneur and precision medicine expert who's trained thousands of doctors worldwide in genomics-based care. He's the co-founder and CEO of Wild Health, a precision medicine company that provides personalized genetics-based care and precision medicine to optimize health and healthspan. Today, you'll learn how epigenetic testing can inform health decisions, discover the interplay between your genes and lifestyle choices and understand both the opportunities and limitations of precision medicine for improving your results.

Philip Pape: 1:40

Matt, welcome to the show. Thank you, philip, I'm excited to be here. So I think I've heard you say that DNA accounts for something like 20% of health outcomes and what people always ask is well, how much of that am I beholden to, how much of that affects the outcome where I can't do anything about it? Versus lifestyle's, everything versus something in between? Right, and I'm just curious from your perspective, now that you've been in this area for so long, is there anything that surprises you about where genetics really matter a ton versus where lifestyle really matters, if that makes sense?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 2:15

Yeah, no, I'm glad you framed it that way, because when I get the questions like, is it genetics or lifestyle, it's a crazy question. It's always both for sure, and I'm glad you went into it as a percentage, because I think that's what matters and that's the way to talk about it. Dna is not destiny, as we've heard that saying before. It is only about 20% of your health outcome. The other 80% is what you do, All the things that we know what you eat, how you sleep, your stress levels, how much you exercise.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 2:44

That is what turns the good genes on and off and the bad genes on and off. Like, we all have specific genes that give us advantages and specific genes that give us disadvantages, and knowing what those are and being aware of those, we can then do something about it. So there are a few genes that are kind of deterministic around some very specific diseases, but that's pretty rare. It's pretty, pretty extremely rare For the most part. All the things that we test for wild health, for example, you can do something about, and we want to find those and then talk about what to do about them to accentuate the advantages or to kind of damp down the disadvantage they have.

Philip Pape: 3:18

All right, cool. So let's talk about that, the things you can do something about, because I wasn't sure if I was going to introduce this in here, but just full disclosure, I had. I did some testing with you guys a while back and had the results and I thought it was pretty cool because it gave me a different perspective on things that I might want to look into and be concerned about or not, without you know over necessarily overreacting and freaking out on the results. Definitely some, you know, risk it Alzheimer's and things like that, which jive with my family history. But I think where the skepticism comes in is what is the scientific support for taking a SNP or whatever the result is and saying, yeah, that really has strong support, that it means this potential outcome or this lifestyle change that I need, versus we're still kind of guessing Like, do you have a fair sense of where that falls For?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 4:06

sure. I mean we test for about 700,000 different specific SNPs. The ones that we really have evidence that we can do something about is more like in the hundreds, like a very small percentage of it, but they really matter. I mean you brought up a great example. I mean you just get specific about Alzheimer's disease and ApoE4.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 4:22

So we first started Wild Health my disease, an APOE4. So when we first started Wild Health, my grandmother she passed away from dementia and one of the first patients we saw was my mother. I was worried about her genetics just because of my grandmother, which is her mom, and sure enough, she had an APOE4 gene. So there's a ton of evidence around that you have two copies of the APOE4, you're about 11 to 13 times more increased risk of getting the disease If you have one version. You're two to three times so 200 to 300% more likely to get it than general population. My mother had one copy and what I told her when we found this is like, mom, this is good news that we know about this now, because we know we can do something about it. This isn't devastating news. It's not deterministic. It doesn't mean you're going to get it and we can do something about it.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 5:06

There's a great book called the End of Alzheimer's by Dale Bredesen, and he talks about kind of the, I think, the 36 holes in the roof, all the things you can do. So because we found this with my mother, we just really started focusing on the things that are going to optimize her brain health and going kind of above and beyond what we would have otherwise. And it just so happened in the process she lost 40 pounds in three months, reversed her insulin resistance and said that she felt 20 years younger, but in that process I really believe we probably add an extra 10 to 15 years to her life before she gets dementia. So that's just a very specific example. There's others as well that I could give, but that's the first one that popped out since you mentioned the dementia risk.

Philip Pape: 5:45

Yeah, no, that's a good one. It's a powerful one on a lot of people's minds and some other ones are, I'll say more maybe surprising. Or I didn't even realize you guys would test for them, like what kind of sleeper you are, kind of your chronotype almost and whether you'd react better to certain macronutrients. And again, I have a lot of skepticism in general and that's kind of my framing on this whole podcast episode. So some of it where I'm like well, I'm a lifter, I eat a lot of carbs and I thrive on that, and they're telling me, maybe I'm not a carb processor. What is that? How do I do with that? And I'm not going to do something with every single bit of information. It's more of, hey, this could be a tendency or some correlation. Maybe that's. The nutrition side of it is where there's a lot of questions. How do you guys come to that determination on some of that?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 6:30

Yeah, no, it's a great question. So I'll start off by saying I'm glad you're skeptical. That's necessary. If someone's not skeptical, don't trust them. They're not a good scientist, because science is just getting closer and closer to an approximation of the truth. You never know the ultimate truth. To get very specific about nutrition, though, I also like to tell people that we're doing precision medicine, not perfect medicine. Everything that I would tell someone to do it's a hypothesis based on the information I have, and doing the genetics just gives us much better information. So you get very specific about that. I'll tell you.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 7:01

It was one of the aha moments for Mike and I when we started Wild Health. We looked at our genetics. You mentioned kind of carb processing and saturated fat processing. When we looked at it, mike had all of these sensitivities around saturated fat. He was very sensitive to saturated fats, whereas I didn't have any of those. I had a lot of sensitivities around carbohydrates that looked like I process fat really well. He processes carbs much better.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 7:21

So we had this hypothesis like it looks almost like he should be on closer to a vegan diet and me a ketogenic, very animal, heavy diet. So we tested this. So for a couple weeks we would do just his diet, eating like closer to a vegan diet, both of us doing the same workouts, eating the exact same things, blood tests before and after, and we did his diet. He would destroy me. In the workouts His blood work looked great, my blood work looked crap. It looked like crap. I felt horrible when we switched to my diet more of a ketogenic diet. I beat him in the same workouts. My blood work got better and his got worse. So we tested the hypothesis before we actually said we're going to do this because we want these objective markers. It's the same thing as we make any recommendations to someone we could talk about instead of big kind of macro things like you're talking about very specific molecules.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 8:04

So for myself, one of my aha moments for me too, was I was doing Ironman racing when I first sequenced my genetics and I found that I needed more collagen. At a collagen SNP I needed more collagen protein. I also had a SNP that met. I actually have a bigger inflammatory response to exercise, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. We want a little bit of a hormetic stress, but it looked like I needed more recovery than most people. So when I started, when I dialed that volume down, which would have been not the right thing, according to Ironman right. So it's volume, volume, volume. I dialed that back and started eating more collagen protein, start performing better. And with the collagen protein, all of these old tendon and ligament injuries that I had got better and that they went away. So we'll identify these things, but then we want to test them.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 8:48

The other thing is I think people sometimes put too much emphasis on the little variations. So, for example, it came back that I did better with endurance than strength training. What that did not mean is that I needed to quit lifting weights. Oh man, that would be a nightmare. Yeah, what it meant is look at it is when I am lifting weights. Everyone needs resistance training. Everyone needs these things. I may respond a little better to higher reps, lower weights. So maybe instead of five by five sets, I'm doing three by 10 sets, and when I did adjust for that, I did start making gains a little better. So it's knowing how to interpret it and then also objectively testing it. But like if you go to a doctor or a coach or anybody, now they're going to give you recommendations the recommendation that someone gives you when they know your DNA is still not going to be perfect, but it's going to be better and it's going to be a shortcut to getting to that final perfect answer for you.

Philip Pape: 9:44

I like the fact that it gives you these like a decision tree basically, where, like you said, with a test, with the types of diet you you isolated, right, you used one as a control, one as experiment or for yourself, right, you did a cross comparison, whatever you want to call it, and I highly encourage people to do that anyway, even if it didn't have the gene data and you want to know. Right, that's the only way you're going to know. Your response to training or response to a diet is to try it out. So don't assume that there's one size fits all, which is another key message here, in that people push certain diets right, that this diet is the best for everyone and what you're saying is, no, we're all different anyway and we kind of know that.

Philip Pape: 10:19

My question, then, is how advanced is the world of evidence and testing when it comes to those gene environment interactions? So some of the ones you just mentioned I feel like we're still in the infancy of that when it comes to like big RCTs, randomized control trials and meta-analysis on that stuff. At least, I haven't seen too much of it in the evidence-based fitness side of the thing, but maybe it's more in the genomics and the hard sciences that I don't pay as much attention to. What's the state of evidence today in that?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 10:47

Yeah, so as a scientist, you always want more and bigger RCTs and all of that, so I'm excited for where it's going to go. However, six years ago when we started doing this, when I started looking, I was surprised at how much evidence there was. There was a lot of evidence. Nobody was just doing it yet and that's common, like in medicine, we're always like 15 years behind the evidence. So there is a fair amount. I mean and you mentioned athletics, so there's even.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 11:10

There are studies in athletics where they randomize. There's a soccer team in Great Britain there, also with some other sports teams. I've seen a few different of these studies where they randomized the athletes to getting the standard workout or having it adjusted somewhat for their genetic profiling, like I just mentioned. And in those studies the ones who were randomized to get the genetic-based program did better. They made quicker gains when it came to cross-lateral jumping and a few other specific things that they were measuring. So there is evidence. There's not these massive RCTs, but I think it's unfair to even think there would be, because there's no pharmaceutical company putting a billion dollars behind the studies. So the studies are expensive and, while I'd love to have more to me, there's enough evidence to actually start doing something, but being cognizant of the fact that I'm going to try this, this is probably going to work, but I'm going to actually measure it and have an objective marker to make sure that it's working, because there's plenty of what we don't know.

Philip Pape: 12:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree, that's the case in a lot of these fields. So I was just curious about it and I also think just being just taking the step to do this type of testing I think puts somebody in a position of the awareness and taking an action towards something Like I could imagine. Whatever the result is, you're going to improve something in your life, cause I know I had some, you know, second thoughts about certain things. Can you give us another, maybe, case where the insights from this lead to quite different recommendations for like two different people? Yeah, cause I mean your. Your results is like a 50 page or a hundred page document. Right, there's a lot in there, but maybe one that people would be really fascinated by. Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 12:40

So you're talking about athletics. That's kind of your focus. It's very specific. This is a max contract NBA player that we saw who. He came to us and his specific issue actually came as his mood issues. He's having kind of depression, anxiety, kind of low levels throughout the season, and so what we didn't do is what traditional medicine would do, like put him on SSRI or something like that, the Band-Aid. That's not getting to the root cause. So we looked at his genetics. Then we compared that to his lifestyle. What is he doing?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 13:12

And one of the things that he was doing was the same thing that all of his teammates were doing, which was, before a game, drink a bunch of caffeine, maybe some Red Bulls coffee, something like that, because caffeine has been shown to be an ergogenic aid. It improves performance like period, like we've known that for decades, so it's not a bad strategy. However, when you actually look at those studies, what you find is that for people who are fast metabolizers genetically, they get an improved performance. That happens to be up about 80% of people. When you do a study, if 80% of people in there are going to have a benefit, well then you're going to think that this benefits people. But then when you look at the other people who weren't fast metabolizers, if you're a moderate metabolizer you get no gain. If you're a slow metabolizer, it actually hurts your performance. So for him it turns out he was a slow metabolizer.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 13:55

He also had a specific gene called an Adora 2A. That meant that caffeine disrupted his sleep more than other people. So caffeine is going to disrupt everybody's sleep some, but it disrupted his more. So what was happening is he was doing what his teammates were doing, which, for 80% of them, was probably working a bunch of caffeine. It was hurting his performance and it meant that he couldn't get to sleep at night. It was destroying his sleep architecture. So he was waking up exhausted the next morning drinking more of the caffeine and things to get to shoot around, hurting his performance more. He's in this vicious cycle. So something that would work perfectly for me. Like I'm a fast metabolizer and when I was doing Ironman racing, caffeine was like my best friend because it did help performance. For him, it hurt his performance. That's a perfect example of one genetic snip meaning a very different thing for two different people when it comes to athletic performance.

Philip Pape: 14:43

Yeah, Especially since you said what 20% of people would fall in that category, which is fairly. I mean, it's big but it's also small, in that it's kind of like with creatine, when I say most people benefit but there's actually like 25% that don't you know, and everybody pushes it and everybody says you should take it, but then somebody says, well, I don't, it's not doing anything for me, Well, you must not be taking it, right? Right, it's like we do this gaslighting kind of game which then leads to another thing I wasn't even going to ask about and I think of women's health, hormones, peri-postmenopause like that's a big part of our audience. Where does this come in? And interacting with that world and I bring that up because there's a lot of triggering there there's a lot of emotions with the traditional healthcare industry maybe not being as responsive to some of that as we'd like, and so people go to things like hormone specialists and whatnot. Where does the genetic testing come in regarding women's health and hormones?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 15:34

Well, I think I mean it's loaded. I'm trying to decide where to start, just because we've done hormone replacement therapy for women so poorly for so long that that's like a can of worms, that like we just hurt so many women over the last couple of decades since the Women's Health Initiative study. So I think, in general, medicine has had a very bad view and it's been bad for women, and when it comes to to that, most women would definitely benefit from hormone replacement therapy. Going through menopause and the risks are incredibly overblown. How do genetics fit into that? There's not a lot of great snips that would help specifically guide hormone replacement therapy. That's just something that a good physician should be able to do. There's really nice guidelines around that.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 16:17

Where precision medicine and genomics come in a little more is kind of an ancillary way. What we find is that when you're optimizing, people think I'm going through menopause, perimenopause. This is really difficult, tough it is, and let's probably optimize these hormones and replace them. But other things matter too. Optimizing diet, exercise, sleep all these other things play a key role in how you feel, whether you're replacing your hormones or not. So anything that you do for someone, the same thing with cancer patients.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 16:47

We have cancer patients. A lot of times they come to us. We're not going to say not to do like, see the oncologist and do all of those things, but the basic lifestyle things that we can really guide with precision medicine are going to make a difference in how well those oncology drugs work with, how well you feel and perform, whether you're doing hormone replacement therapy or not. So for that specific example, I would say it plays more of a kind of an ancillary role, except for medications. So if you're talking about oncology drugs or medications, we do specifically like lipids, for example. If someone's lipids are incredibly high and we need to treat them, we don't just put them on the first medication that a physician normally starts. We do pharmacogenomic testing to see which medication they're going to respond best to with the least side effects.

Philip Pape: 17:34

Oh, I can see it sounds incredibly, incredibly useful, especially since, in that case, I imagine you have a good size data set with those correlations and those medications. So you mentioned lifestyle, which we talk about all the time, and I like that you went there, even with regards to hormones, because I also agree most people are going to need some form of hormone replacement therapy, probably and the you know the risks have been overblown and at the same time, we want to address lifestyle. What kind of lifestyle improvements beyond the basics, beyond the stuff that everybody would do regardless of a genetic test? Right, like everybody should resistance train, in my opinion, everybody should be active and so on. Eat enough protein. Are there things you found that are very unique that have come out of your research and how you apply this to people? That are lifestyle habits. People who are listening would say, oh, that's very interesting, like I never thought to change that or to do that differently, but genetic testing might indicate it yeah, I mean, I mean diet is the biggest one.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 18:31

So I gave this specific example with mike and I. Ours was different, but there's a lot of other specific examples. We try to identify kind of superfoods and kryptonite foods for folks and those are going to be different for different people. Like I already mentioned my mother, so I'll mention her. She had, when you're thinking about her, snps to kind of design superfoods for her. She had SNPs around a VDR, meaning she needs more vitamin D, bcmo means she needs more vitamin A, fads2, she needs more omega-3. And a collagen SNP means she needs more collagen. So putting those together then the AI recommended like perfect food for her is a sardine because it has all of those in it. And then, when it comes to kryptonite food, she had an MCM-6, which meant dairy is inflammatory for for her, and SH2B3, meaning wheat and gluten are inflammatory for her, and that's going to be different for everybody.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 19:24

So very specific things around food we find that frequently make a difference. Supplements as well. I already mentioned kind of the caffeine example, but there are other examples with supplements as well. People talk about all times like do supplements work or do they not, which I think is the craziest question ever. They work if you need them and they don't if you don't, and so identifying who needs certain supplements based on their genetics and blood work is important, and that's going to be different for everybody too, things like vitamin D, because I always recommend my nutrition clients.

Philip Pape: 19:56

You know. Get tested for that right, because we know you could have too much vitamin D in terms of supplementation and then many people are deficient. I'm a white guy in new England and I have that personal experience with needing more vitamin D, but what you're suggesting is that the genetics itself have give you a natural tendency to need more of something. Is that that kind of what you're saying, Independent of? I mean, it sounds like you should also get tested for deficiency, wouldn't you agree? They go hand in hand. Yeah, a hundred percent.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 20:22

Genetics is a small piece of the puzzle, it's not the entire thing. So if I go vitamin D, sure you can have the VDR snip. You may need more, but then what is your vitamin D, though? And then, are you living in Florida in the summer or Alaska in the winter? All those or Alaska and the winter, all those things kind of come into it. So genetics, I think, are a key thing. I wouldn't treat someone without having them, but they're just a piece of the puzzle. Even though we're a genomics-based company, I tell people all the time, genomics by itself is almost worthless. I need all the other information, I need the entire picture to really be able to make good recommendations.

Philip Pape: 20:54

Yeah, that's cool. Okay, and so you mentioned Alzheimer's and I don't know if you mentioned diabetes, but I have in my notes that there was a white paper and I should have. I wish I had more of the details. There's a white paper on diabetes reversal. Does this strike a chord with you? Yeah, and I was curious how much of that you could say is from the personalization, from the genetics, and maybe you can walk us through what we're talking about too, versus like fundamental changes that anybody would make that would reverse diabetes.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 21:19

Yeah, great question. So I mentioned my mother and she in three months lost 40 pounds versus her insulin resistance, mike's mother. We put her on the program. She lost 80 pounds, got off all of her chronic medications. Now those are anecdotes, those aren't science. So we looked at our first several thousand patients and we put a white paper out on the results. So I think that's what you're talking about. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome no-transcript. You've got diabetes. We're going to start treating it.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 21:49

They don't want to talk about reversing diabetes. Well, about 3% of people in traditional medicine who have elevated A1c will reverse and normalize their A1c, meaning effectively they don't have type 2 diabetes anymore. In our patient population, those who came to us with elevated A1c, 48% completely reversed it. So about half of our patients are quote unquote reversing type 2 diabetes. Is it 40 or 48? 48, yeah, so about half. So we do get incredible results. And when you look at all the other results we looked at, like LDL-P inflammation very similar, remarkable results we're not seeing in medicine otherwise.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 22:21

You ask a good question how much of that is related to the kind of personalization versus just stuff that people should be doing? I have no idea. I'll tell you what I think. There's not a study that we can do to really tease those out. We'll just never be able to do that. Here's what I believe. I believe that the personalization makes a big difference, but I also believe that there's a component to people actually finally getting to know what's good for them and they're probably more compliant. Also, I mean my mother. I hear people say well, she's just like doing what she needs to do. She always wanted to be healthy. She was always trying. She just didn't know what to do for her. So how much of it was that she's finally doing the right thing for her versus how much of it was she excited to finally have a plan for her and so she did it more? I don't know. Either way it works, and I think it's a mixture of both of those.

Philip Pape: 23:11

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, the more I talk with you here, the more I realize that, yeah, the power in this is the personalization. You know many of us who are in this industry who don't have access to what you do or obviously I could have a client go get a test. We have to take a little more of a trial and error approach or use their history or something like that, but still, like you said, the compliance or adherence with the personalization which gives you this greater clarity, less ambiguity, more confidence that what you're going to do is going to work is super powerful and you're just like adding an extra level of probability on top of that to make it even more potentially successful is what I'm hearing from this. So that's awesome. Whatever gets people to be healthier, matt, is I'm all for. So all right.

Philip Pape: 23:54

So when I think you said you analyze hundreds of thousands of genetic markers or and there are so many snips 70 something, thousand, I don't know what numbers you threw Either it was just massive numbers and just a few of them. Do we know with a decent amount of confidence what the correlation is? Right? You said a few hundred. With a decent amount of confidence, with the correlations? Right? You said a few hundred. How do you avoid going too far and making an assumption that of like a spurious correlation that may actually not be real, like, what's your quality level on that? What is the process? I'm just curious about that.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 24:23

Sure, yeah, yeah, um. So, as we're giving recommendations to people like, do specific things, um, again Again, dna is not everything by itself. It's not helpful. So we're not going to make a recommendation to do X just based on DNA. There's also a conversation with the person. There's their blood work and their biomarkers and all the other data we have. So when we're making a recommendation, we're doing it the same way that a regular doctor would. We make the recommendation based on all the data we have. So, like when we're making a recommendation, we're doing it the same way that a regular doctor would. We make the recommendation based on all the data we have. The difference is we have a lot more data.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 24:58

So, in the recommendations in general too, they're just never going to be way out there, and I'm trying to actually think of a specific time where the recommendation would be harmful, and it's hard to come up with one. I mean we could, let's say, for example, the nba player that I mentioned, maybe for some weird, unknown, unknown reason, like he has a gene that caffeine would make him perform better and it overrides this one that we know about. That's possible, but it's unlikely, and so we would just follow him when we say, stop drinking caffeine for the games. We're then going to follow up and say how do you feel? How did you perform? So anything that we say to do, we usually try to identify an objective marker of is this working? Is something that's going to improve your sleep? Well, we want you to wear a sleep tracker, an Oura ring, an Apple watch, a whoop, something like that, and then when we do it, and then we're going to measure and see how you're doing, so we still want to follow with objective markers when we make recommendations.

Philip Pape: 25:57

That makes sense? Yeah, and it's not. It's not like this binary, like you should get more sleep and you should get less sleep. It isn't like you're going to suggest somebody get less sleep. You know what I mean. It's more of we're going to recommend more sleep for you and then for another person we're not going to recommend more sleep necessarily. It's more of that situation. So you mentioned data, having more data. I'm curious about how you use AI today, especially as hot as that has become as a topic, and again even a year ago, when I did this. I don't know how much has changed since then, but how do you incorporate AI?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 26:29

Yeah, a couple of ways. One it's just impossible for the human brain to take millions of data points and make perfect sense out of that. That's much better for a machine. So we've spent probably $50 million in the last six years developing the AI platform to be able to make the recommendations, to take everything into account and make those recommendations, and we get really interesting things happen from it sometimes.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 26:51

A good example of this is we had a 40-something-year-old guy who was an executive, very healthy former college athlete who just came to us because he just wanted to optimize, kind of get that last 1% and no medical diagnoses, nothing else.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 27:06

But with the AI we found like they had some specific genetic snips. His blood work was not bad, but there's some signals in there and his wearables, his HRV and rest and heart rate all of it together gave a signal that said, hey, you need to do a bigger cardiovascular workup in the sky, which I never as a physician we never would have. Normally he's a completely healthy guy. But it prompted us to go further and do this clearly scan and AI-guided CT angiogram of his heart. And when we did this, we got an emergency call from the radiologist reading and said, hey, he needs to go to the cath lab now and he had a greater than 90% lesion on his LAD, which would have meant in the next year he probably would have had a massive heart attack, potentially died from that, and by finding this, like the AI putting all this together, like we probably added 40 years to this guy's life. He has two young kids, and so that's just an example of the AI being able to see patterns that a human wouldn't see with that much data.

Philip Pape: 28:02

That's cool. So now do you take those patterns and make them kind of codify the pattern itself as a thing that is looked for, that combination of that data, just in that way?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 28:13

Yeah, so we're constantly making recommendations. Then we're constantly feeding things back into the app like, hey, did this work, did this not work? So, just like people out here have been talking about fine-tuning large language models a similar thing with ours and speaking of large language models, so that's the next thing. So we have recently taken all of this IP and put it on top of a large language model so that people can actually interact with it. So, for example, like with our program now, if someone sends a question, a message, to their physician health coach, the LLM will intercept it and looks at all of their millions of data points and gives a recommendation to the doctor and health coach about the potential answer or what to do. The doctor and health coach can then use that or modify it or whatever, but it's just much better at remembering. Like the doctor and health coach, they just aren't going to remember your 700,000 genes and like your entire medical history. And we've actually put this into an app so it's on my phone, I use it every day, but you can actually interact with all this and it pushes notifications to you.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 29:16

So, like recently, I got a notification that said hey, you're overtraining, you're going to get injured or sick if you continue. And so I interacted with it just like you would chat GPT. I said, well, how do you know that? And it showed me my HRV trends and my resting heart rate trends. And then I realized, oh yeah, I've been traveling, I've been working out just as much, not sleeping as well. Historically, because I'm so hardheaded, I would have pushed through that and gotten injured or sick. But because it gave me a subjective feedback, I then interacted with it and said, well, give me a seven-day plan to recover a little better. And it gave me that, but based on my DNA, my blood work, knowing my goals. I knew my goals where I was climbing a mountain called Cotopaxi, coming up, and I wanted to get better pickleball. Those were my two goals, and so it gave me a workout plan to recover and still push towards those goals. So having all that IP built on a large language model that you can interact with, I think is the real future. Yeah, man.

Max: 30:05

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Philip Pape: 30:49

I'm excited about it. I mean, that's I's fat. I'm just imagining all the possibilities just in the world nutrition and training with taking that complexity of data, taking your health data, the biomarkers, genetics, smushing it all together and getting some amazing patterns, cause we all know that information. You know, the problem isn't the information necessarily right. It's people doing things and being compliant and whatnot but also there's so much information we're not looking at. Even you mentioned HRV and recovery data.

Philip Pape: 31:18

Not everyone has an Oura Ring, but I encourage people to play with that stuff and kind of reverse engineer. If you have poor sleep and then you look at the data and it says it's poor sleep, does that make sense for what you did last night, all that stuff. So I think it's awesome. So now, okay, we get down this rabbit hole. People are listening and saying, okay, well, what do I do with all this? What would you tell somebody who's considering genetic testing and they just want to optimize their health? Our audience is generally they're already have some baseline level of they care about lifting and they walk, and I mean most of them. Some people may be listening, saying like I want to do that. Where would you send them first to start?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 31:53

yeah, um, well, obviously, like we created a program that we think we we built to be what we think is optimal, so at wild health, we do that. What I would say just in general, though, is you're going to do genetic testing, uh, one probably have someone. You're doing it with, a provider or someone who understands it, is going to help you translate it, and because you may get things back like that hey, you have this gene, so you're at slightly higher risk of cancer. If X, well, what does that mean? It may mean that your risk of that specific cancer goes from 0.1% to 0.2%. What does that matter? It's a doubling your risk, but not really. It means you got an extra one in 500 risk there, so it's not something to keep you up at night and think about.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 32:34

So having someone that knows how to interpret this and what to do with it is good. Also, not taking it by itself. I already mentioned this thing. Dna by itself is almost worthless. So making sure you, or someone you know, can integrate this with your blood work, your lifestyle, your phenotype, all the other stuff about you that isn't measured in that is critically important as well, and that's how we designed Wild Health to be able to take all of that into account and then have someone to help guide you through it as well when you're trying to implement it.

Philip Pape: 33:03

And what does that look like? So once somebody has taken all the tests which includes, as you mentioned before, not just genetic testing but also some blood work and things that go along with that what does happen next? You know, after the person, kind of review I assume they review with a doctor kind of understand what's happening and then what?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 33:21

Yeah, so if someone was just so decided for wild health. They get a DNA test in the mouth, just a saliva test. You spit it out, you send it back. We ordered blood tests. You just go to a local lab for a request where you have them come to your house. Either one get all your blood and then we collect a ton of information, questionnaires and things to learn things about you that those two things can't measure your blood tests and your genetics.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 33:42

There's a conversation with you as well, the lost art of talking to your patient, which you seem to have forgotten. It's important, yeah, and then all of that together we put into the AI. We get the report and the recommendations, but then how you implement that matters. The perfect diet for someone isn't just the perfect diet based on their blood work and genetics. It's a perfect diet based on that that they will actually do. So we want to like. If I mentioned, the world's perfect food for my mother was a sardine. If she's not going to eat those, then we'll find other ways to fill those gaps. So having the health coach and the doctor to implement and ask questions of that relationship we think is actually really important too to get the biggest benefit from all the testing.

Philip Pape: 34:23

And how about the training exercise side of it? What kind of recommendations would you give to someone? Is there like hands-on support? Do you guys have trainers, or is it more of? Here's what we recommend? Now you're going to have to find a qualified person to do that with.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 34:35

Yeah, our health coaches are all really great at that. Our health coaches are we had a big deal several years ago with CrossFit, so a lot of our trainers are. They're personal trainers also, they're not just health coaches. And so and we do have a couple people on the team who will help even develop training programs.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 34:51

If someone doesn't have someone to do that with, the general report doesn't give a lot of specifics around training, because that is just very specific to the person, that they're what their goals are like specificity, like that's just. It didn't make sense to give training recommendations based on genetics and blood work because, yeah, as you know, and I know that doesn't make sense, like what kind of injury, your injuries, your past, your past, sports, everything, no, that shows up in your genetics. So we don't get specific on those things unless someone wants it and then the health coach can get specific or we actually have some people on the team that can actually write some programming for folks. If they don't have someone, we also frequently will. Just the health coach or doctor will talk to someone's trainer and just help them integrate that information.

Philip Pape: 35:37

They're someone that they really trust and work with already. Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. This is definitely about partnerships and having a team. I mean, I experienced the same thing where somebody might come to me who already has a trainer. I'm like, great, let's work with them, you know, as a team. So you're saying you all have genetics that say, if your deadlift or squat is going to be bigger, right, and you should go after that one, maybe one day.

Philip Pape: 35:55

You know one of the other topics that came up recently on. I had Dr Spencer Nadalski on and we were talking about the healthcare industry and having doctors who lift, and I've only interacted with a few of the guys on your team, but the one gentleman I interacted with for my plan I could, you know, I could tell, based on his knowledge and what, how he spoke, that he practiced what he preached and he's, you know, a fit individual who was into this. I don't know if all your doctors are like that, but I definitely think that's something to look for. You know, when you're a patient looking at a doctor, do they practice a healthy lifestyle? What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 36:29

Yeah, I thought you were going to say I could tell, cause he was Jack and I was like, oh, he seemed like an athletic guy too.

Philip Pape: 36:34

Yeah, he had a coat on, though.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 36:36

Yeah, yeah, um, no, all of our doctors, I mean we just I mentioned code of fact, this is 20,000 foot uh mountain and Ecuador, uh, myself and four of other doctors recently like climbed that and so, like all of our, the people on our team, like they deadlift and squat and uh do endurance stuff and uh and exercise, like yeah, I certainly wouldn't trust a doctor who's obese and smoking and like in doing things that they shouldn't. I mean no judgment against being overweight, but if it's clear that their lifestyle is they're not practicing what they preach, yeah I would just and maybe they've got great advice, I don't know that. But in general, I want to see someone who's practicing what they preach and doing this stuff too, and not just telling you what they've read from a book, but they have some experience with it as well.

Philip Pape: 37:24

Cool, yeah, no, I get that from you guys because there's a lot of confusion in the healthcare industry about what we mean by that Cause there's definitely criticisms of, well, it's sick care, not healthcare, and all this, but your practice is definitely a more proactive. Let's get ahead of it and take control of our health and then take positive action to improve our lifestyle. So this has been awesome. I do like to ask one question of all guests Is there anything you wish I had asked that we didn't cover, and what's your answer?

Dr. Matt Dawson: 37:49

Good question, I think so. One of the things that I so a lot of times I'm asked about all these specific things biohacking type things and like maximizing longevity and genomics and all that, and I think it's all fun and exciting and great, but sometimes I think we lose sight of there's really good science on the number one thing for health, span and longevity. It came out of the Harvard study on healthy aging a massive number of people over decades and what they found was the number one predictor for how long you live and how happy you are is the strength of your social relationships. And so any of the things that we talk about biohacking and genomics and AI and all that if you're not focusing on your relationships, then you're wasting your time. Stop, go hang out with your kids or your loved ones or your significant other or your friends. That's going to be. If you're focused on health and happiness, that's going to be the number one thing. So I always like to remind people of that, as we're talking about all the cutting edge stuff as well.

Philip Pape: 38:46

That's a really great, great reminder. And it's apropos because I'm going to be talking to a couple later this week who is a relationship couple and it's the first time I ever spoke to anybody like that on the show because I'm like we don't just want to talk about protein and lifting here, we want to get into all the things that affect, like you said, your longevity, your happiness, your health, your lifestyle, and they all play together. So I'm glad you kind of ended with that here, dr Matt. Where can folks learn about you guys, either you personally or Wild Health wherever you want to send them.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 39:16

Yeah, wildhealthcom, I think, is where everything is. We have a podcast as well and social media feeds, which I'm so old I always forget what the handles for those are. But yeah, wildhealthcom, I have them all. Don't worry, I'm glad to give a plug for the relationship podcast. Hopefully you can put this one just before that one. This would be commercial for that Like tune in next time to the relationship podcast on Woodson and White.

Philip Pape: 39:36

Yeah, exactly, this one does come out before it. Yeah, yeah, so it'll, it'll be good. It'll be good. No, I appreciate it. All right, we'll send. We'll include that in the show notes. It's been a lot of fun. I know there's so many. It's okay to be skeptical we should be. You should also question the provider of this kind of thing, and my personal experience with wild health has been great. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your thoughts today.

Dr. Matt Dawson: 40:02

Thank you, it was a lot of fun.

How Tinsel the Elf Defeated Doubt with Perfect Form (A Holiday Tale of Strength vs Shadows) | Ep 258

Something sinister lurks in the woods around Strong Point, draining elves of their strength, energy, and most terrifyingly... their ability to train close to failure.

When a mysterious Shadow Wraith begins targeting the village's most dedicated lifters, making them doubt their form and forget their 1RM, Tinsel must face his greatest challenge yet. Can perfect technique triumph over supernatural doubt?

Join us for this special holiday episode as we return to the magical village of Strong Point, where we discover that true strength isn't just about moving weight - it's about moving it with purpose, even when facing your darkest fears.

You'll learn that:

• True strength comes from facing doubts, not denying them

• Perfect form isn't just about the weight - it's about mastery of movement

• Community support and proper technique can overcome any challenge

• Even elves need to train

Plus, discover why Mrs. Claus's protein sugar cookies finally stopped tasting like chalk.

For more about building real strength (supernatural or otherwise), join my FREE email list at witsandweights.com/email

Tinsel’s Origin Story:

• The Elf Who Wanted to Improve His Health (and Get Jacked)
  

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Welcome back, dear listeners, to the magical village of Strongpoint, where snowflakes shimmer like perfectly polished 45-pound plates and every elf has a story to tell. If you joined us last year, you'll remember the inspiring journey of a small but mighty elf named Tinsel. For those who missed it maybe you were too busy tracking your macros or obsessing over your step count let me catch you up. Tinsel wasn't always the symbol of strength and hope that Strongpoint now knows. He once felt as weak as a first-time lifter, trying to explain why they skipped squat day. But with the guidance of Whitney Strongpoint's most compassionate and wise mentor and, let's be honest, the only one who truly understood proper periodization Tinsel discovered that true transformation comes from consistency, proper form and occasionally admitting that, yes, you probably should sleep more this week. By last Christmas Eve, tinsel had become Strongpoint's go-to example of what happens when you actually follow the program instead of just doing whatever that one elf fluencer on Elfingram or EG suggests. Santa himself recognized Tinsel's efforts, entrusting him with leading the sleigh-loading team, a task that requires both strength and the ability to convince Reindeer that no, they cannot skip their carbs. But today's story is different. It's about what happens after you've hit your goals, when the progress pictures are framed on the wall and the before and after shots have gotten a thousand likes. It's about facing a different kind of challenge, one that can't be solved with just another set of bench presses, though Tinsel certainly tried. So grab your protein shake properly, mix this time. We don't want those clumps find a comfortable position, with a neutral spine, of course. And let me tell you about the time Strongpoint faced its darkest hour, which, considering we live in the North Pole, where it's dark half the year, is really saying something. Chapter 1. The First Signs, or why Recovery Actually Matters.

Philip Pape: 2:00

The trouble began on what seemed like an ordinary day in Strongpoint. The village glittered under fresh snow, toy production was hitting new PRs and Tinsel was doing what he did every morning teaching a group of young elves the finer points of Romanian deadlift form, while simultaneously meal prepping and reviewing Santa's logistics spreadsheets. Remember, he demonstrated with a perfectly loaded barbell keep your core braced, like you're about to tell Mrs Claus that her cookie recipe needs more protein powder. Have you ever actually done that, asked Pip, the youngest and most inquisitive of his students. No, tinsel admitted. But I did once suggest she try protein ice cream instead of regular ice cream in her shakes and that felt pretty close to me needing maximum intra-abdominal pressure. That's when Holly burst into the training area. Her usual sparkle dimmed and her festive bells jingling in what could only be described as a minor key. Holly was known throughout Strongpoint for three things Her cheerful songs, her perfect barbell bent over row form and her ironclad rule about never interrupting a training session unless something was seriously wrong. Tinsel, she gasped Something's out there in the woods, something wrong. Tinsel carefully unloaded his plates and racked his barbell because proper gym etiquette doesn't take holidays and asked Holly to explain. I was out gathering pine cones for our lateral raise superset station. She began when I felt it watching me. It's cold, but not the kind of cold you feel in your fingers, more like the kind you feel when someone tells you you're rounding your back too much with your deadlift. The young elves gasped. They knew that was the worst kind of cold. Chapter two the growing shadow, or why you should never skip your compound lifts.

Philip Pape: 3:37

That evening, as the village gathered around the great tree to share stories and their carefully measured portions of casein protein pudding, more elves spoke of the mysterious presence Aspen, strongpoint's most dedicated powerlifting enthusiast, who once attempted to convince Santa to replace his sleigh with a power rack stepped forward. It drains your energy, he said, his voice unusually quiet. I went out for my usual lower body day, you know, just a light session of back squats, leg press and walking lunges, and I barely made it back. It's like something sapped my will to train. I even considered skipping my accessory work. The crowd murmured in horror. Aspen never skipped accessories, ever.

Philip Pape: 4:17

Tinsel exchanged glances with Whitney who had been quietly analyzing the situation while doing her evening set of overhead presses, because shoulder health doesn't take holidays either. This sounds like more than just seasonal fatigue, whitney said thoughtfully, though I do think some of you could benefit from a deload week. But what could cause such weakness? Tinsel wondered aloud, absentmindedly, doing some trap, bar shrugs as he thought. Even that time we accidentally replaced all the pre-workout with decaf Elvish Energizer tea. Wasn't this bad.

Philip Pape: 4:45

Just then, jingle, strongpoint's resident gym equipment mechanic and unofficial chronicler of weird stuff, pushed through the crowd clutching an ancient-looking book titled Supernatural Phenomena and Proper Programming Splits. I think I know what we're dealing with, jingle announced, flipping through pages. The symptoms match perfectly with legendary accounts of the Shadow Wraith, chapter 3. The Preparation Phase, or why Programming Actually Matters. The revelation hit Strongpoint harder than doms. After week one of a new high-volume phase. The Shadow Wraith wasn't just a legend. Parents used to convince elflings to rack their weights. It was real. According to these records, jingle continued adjusting his spectacles while doing standing calf raises, because elves are excellent multitaskers.

Philip Pape: 5:34

The Shadow Wraith feeds on doubt, fatigue and improper form. It's basically like that one guy at the gym who always has something negative to say about your technique, except, you know, supernatural and actually dangerous. Whitney stepped forward her strategic mind, already mapping out a plan. They will need to be stronger, not just physically but mentally. Tinsel. Remember how you used to doubt yourself before learning about progressive overload. You mean last year, when I thought I couldn't load Santa's sleigh? Tinsel replied unconsciously, straightening his posture, because posture cues never leave your thoughts Back, when I didn't understand that strength is built gradually, like adding five pounds to the bar each week. Exactly, whitney nodded. We need to prepare everyone the same way, but this time we're not just fighting physical weakness, we're fighting something that targets our insecurities. And so began Operation Iron Will, named by Tinsel, though Whitney had lobbied for the unforgiving Project. No Excuses.

Philip Pape: 6:29

The village transformed into what can only be described as the world's most festive training camp. The toy workshop became a makeshift gym with production lines cleverly redesigned to incorporate the main movement patterns. Elves practiced their form while assembling dolls and trains, turning every toy-making session into an opportunity for gains. Mrs Claus even got involved, reformulating her famous hot chocolate recipe to include 25 grams of protein per serving, though the first batch tasted suspiciously like liquid chalk. Tinsel established different training stations throughout the village the Confidence Corner, where elves practice their compound lifts with perfect form Remember, he'd say, the Shadow Wraith can't feed on your doubt if your technique is flawless.

Philip Pape: 7:11

The Mental Strength Station featuring a mirror where elves practice positive self-talk while doing triceps, press downs. Your triceps deserve respect became an unlikely but popular mantra. The Team Unity Zone, where partners spotted each other on bench press while sharing their fears and insecurities your spotters got your back just like a vertical bar, but popular mantra. The Team Unity Zone where partners spotted each other on bench press while sharing their fears and insecurities your spotters got your back just like a vertical bar. Path has your spines back during deadlifts. But not everyone was convinced. Bernard, the head of toy production and notorious volume addict, questioned the methodology. Shouldn't we be training harder, he argued during a village meeting. Maybe add some extra sets or triple our working weight. Whitney shut that down faster than you can say eagle lifting, bernard. She said patiently when is doing more reps with poor form ever solved anything? Besides, you still haven't mastered the mind-muscle connection with your lateral delts. Bernard muttered something about lateral raises being overrated, but wisely didn't push the issue.

Philip Pape: 8:02

Chapter 4. The Unexpected Challenge, or why you Should Always have a Backup Plan. Just as the village was hitting its stride in preparation, something unexpected happened. The Shadow Wraith, apparently not content to wait for a proper confrontation, began targeting individual elves during their solo training sessions. First was Snowflake, who was known for her incredible ability to train with effort. A few reps shy of failure, she came back from what should have been a simple push day, looking shaken. It made me forget how to feel my pecs engaging. She whispered, traumatized. I was just moving the weight around like a CrossFit athlete. No offense to CrossFit athletes, but proper technique is serious business in Strongpoint.

Philip Pape: 8:42

Then came Peppermint's terrifying experiments during his back training. I was in the middle of my lat pulldowns. He recounted, focusing on pulling with my elbows and back, like Whitney taught us, and suddenly this cold voice whispered are you sure you're not just using your biceps, he shuddered. I haven't been able to feel my lats since the final straw came when the Wraith targeted Cookie, strongpoint's most dedicated tracker of macros and training progress. He returned from his session crying out. It made me lose count of my PRs. How am I supposed to ensure progressive overload if I can't accurately gauge my PRs?

Philip Pape: 9:16

Tinsel knew they had to act fast. The Shadow Wraith wasn't just attacking their bodies, it was targeting the very foundations of their training methodology. It was time to take the fight to the shadows themselves. But first they needed a plan and, as any good lifter knows, the best plans involve proper warm-ups, strategic loading schemes and, most importantly, knowing exactly when and how to execute the perfect rep with maximum effort. Whitney Tinsel said his voice firm, with determination. I think it's time we showed this wraith the true meaning of training hard.

Philip Pape: 9:48

Chapter 5. The Final Preparation, or why Effort Beats Mind Games. Tinsel and Whitney gathered Strongpoint's most dedicated lifters in what they called an emergency programming session. The toy workshop's break room, now converted into a strategy center, was filled with training logs, proper form diagrams and one very elaborate whiteboard showing the perfect bar path for each of the main lifts. Okay, team Tinsel addressed the group casually doing some low bar squat bar stretches, because shoulder health waits for no elf, not even during tactical meetings.

Philip Pape: 10:20

We're dealing with an enemy that feeds on our self-doubt. It's basically like that voice in your head that says you're not ready to add another plate to the bar, except this one can actually freeze your soul. So what's the plan, asks Cookie, still traumatized from his PR counting incident. Hit it with some heavy compounds, maybe a German volume training protocol? Whitney stepped forward, shaking her head. This isn't about how much we can lift, it's about how well we can lift it. The Shadow W we can lift. It's about how well we can lift it. The shadow wraith targets our insecurities. But what's the one thing that perfect form and true strength can't doubt that feeling when you nail a rep with perfect execution? Suggested Snowflake Exactly. Whitney smiled. Effort doesn't lie. You either train hard or you don't. There's no room for doubt. Tinsel caught on immediately. So we're not just going to confront this thing, we're going to show it what real strength looks like. Not just moving weight, but moving it with purpose, with focus, with maximum effort. The group finished in unison.

Philip Pape: 11:17

Chapter 6. Into the Woods or the Pre-Workout Kicks. In.

Philip Pape: 11:22

The next morning, a small but determined group ventured into the forest. They carried their most reliable equipment Perfectly knurled barbells, carefully calibrated cast iron plates because uneven loads are nobody's friends and enough chalk to supply a teacher's convention. Tinsel led the way, with Whitney close behind, providing form cues out of habit. Remember to brace. Maintain a neutral spine. The rest of the team followed, each chosen for their specific strengths Snowflake, whose ability to train close to failure could probably bench press by itself. Cookie, who could calculate protein and a muscle gain calorie surplus in his sleep. Aspen, who had finally admitted that maybe maxing out wasn't always the answer. And Peppermint, who might have been scared of the Wraith but was more scared of missing a scheduled training day.

Philip Pape: 12:05

The forest was eerily silent, like a gym at 5am before the pre-workout kicks in. Shadows stretched long and thin between the trees, as if they were doing their own version of superfluous mobility work. Suddenly, a chill swept through the group, carrying with it a laugh that sounded like the creaking of a poorly maintained cable crossover machine. Who dares disturb my domain? The voice seemed to come from everywhere and nowhere, like that one guy at the gym who keeps giving unsolicited advice. The shadow wraith materialized before them, its form shifting like the explanations of someone who clearly prefers higher reps and lighter weights Strength. It hissed its voice like the squeak of an unoiled cable machine. You think strength will save you? I am doubt itself. I am the voice that whispers. One more cheat meal won't hurt, and maybe you should test your max again, even though you're in the middle of a training block.

Philip Pape: 12:57

Tinsel stepped forward, his heart pounding, but his form perfect. We're not afraid of doubt, he said. We faced it before during every plateau, every failed rep, every time we had to deload. But we learned something important True strength isn't about never doubting, it's about moving forward anyway, with proper form, maximum effort and progressive overload. The wraith loomed closer, its shadowy tendrils curling like a loaded barbell, trying to pull you forward during a deadlift. Prove it, it whispered, chapter 7. The Final Set, or Perfect Form Meets Perfect Storm. What happened next would be talked about in Strongpoint for generations to come.

Philip Pape: 13:35

Each elf stepped forward, demonstrating not just strength but mastery of form and technique. Snowflake performed an intense set of perfect form barbell rows. But mastery of form and technique. Snowflake performed an intense set of perfect form barbell rows. Her level of effort so strong it seemed to make the shadows themselves retreat. Cookie executed a series of textbook stiff leg deadlifts, each rep timed with mathematical precision. Aspen, instead of trying to max out, demonstrated the beauty of controlled, sub-maximal pause, front squats with perfect execution. The Wraith screamed in frustration, its form flickering like an influencer's attention when they're checking their phone in the gym. This means nothing. You still doubt, you still fear? Of course we do. Whitney stepped forward, but we don't let it stop us. Every single one of us has felt uncertain, scared, even weak, but we show up anyway. We put in the work, we trust the process and, most importantly, tinsel added setting up for what would be the most important set of his life. We never sacrifice form and effort for ego.

Philip Pape: 14:34

Chapter 8. The Final Showdown, or when perfect form meets the perfect moment. Tinsel stepped up to the perfectly positioned barbell, his stance shoulder-width apart, because even in a supernatural crisis, proper setup is crucial. The rest of the team arranged themselves in a perfect circle like the world's most determined group of spotters. Watch and learn, tinsel said to the wraith, his voice steady. This is what real strength looks like. He began with what appeared to be a standard deadlift setup, but this was no ordinary lift. Every elf present could feel the magic building, not the usual North Pole variety that made toys dance and reindeer fly. But something deeper, more fundamental the kind of magic that happens when determination meets perfect technique. You call that a setup.

Philip Pape: 15:17

The wraith mocked its voice dripping with the kind of condescension usually reserved for gym bros critiquing someone's form on Elfengram. I can sense your doubt, your fear, your worry that maybe your back isn't perfectly neutral. But Tinsel didn't waver. Instead, he did something unexpected. He cued each part of his lift out loud, turning his technique into a battle. Cry Brace. The ground seemed to stabilize beneath them. Engage the lats. Shadowcry Brace, the ground seemed to stabilize beneath them. Engage the lats. The shadows flickered uncertainly. Drop my hips. The darkness began to retreat. Drive through the floor. Light started breaking through the trees. The wraith screamed, its form wavering like the resolution of someone who just discovered the free pizza day at Planet Fitness. Stop, you can't possibly maintain perfect form under maximum load. Wanna bet? Whitney called out. Show it your working sets, tinsel.

Philip Pape: 16:04

What followed was the most technically perfect series of reps ever witnessed in the North Pole. Each movement was executed with precision that would make a starting strength coach weep with joy. The bar path was so straight you could use it to align the stars. The other elves joined in, adding their own perfectly executed movements to the mix. Cookie performed overhead presses so precise you could set an atomic clock by them. Snowflake's lat pulldowns were masterclass in scapular depression. Even Bernard, who had followed them into the woods because FOMO affects elves too contributed with some surprisingly well-controlled dumbbell presses. But but the wraith sputtered now, barely maintaining its form. What about progressive overload? Surely you can't progress forever. Progress isn't always about adding weight, whitney declared. Stepping forward. Sometimes it's about better form, better effort, better control. That's what you never understood. Strength isn't just about the weight on the bar, it's about mastery of movement combined with a progress in your work over time. The Wraith let out one final desperate cry something about unconventional training methods before dissolving into mist, swept away by a perfect below-parallel squat depth from Tinsel, chapter 9.

Philip Pape: 17:12

The Victory Celebration, or when Proper Recovery Meets Party Time. When the group returned to Strongpoint, they were greeted as heroes. The village erupted in cheers, though everyone was careful to maintain proper bracing during their celebration jumps. That night they feasted on macro-friendly holiday treats. Mrs Claus had outdone herself with protein sugar cookies that actually tasted like cookies instead of flavored chalk. A North Pole first. Even Santa was impressed, though he still refused to swap his sleigh runners for a barbell. You've done more than save the village, santa told Tinsel during the celebration. You've shown everyone that true strength comes from facing your doubts, not denying them. Though, he added with a twinkle in his eye, I still think you could loosen up a bit about strict form during gift wrapping.

Philip Pape: 17:58

Tinsel stood at the heart of it all. His posture, athletic as ever, because good habits don't take holidays. He had faced the darkness and emerged stronger, not just for himself, but for everyone around him. As he watched the glowing faces of his friends and neighbors, he realized that the real victory wasn't just banishing the shadow wraith. It was showing that when you face your fears with well-practiced technique, unwavering determination and always making the attempt, there's nothing you can't overcome. And so the legend of tinsel grew, a story retold each holiday season to remind the village that true strength comes in many forms, but preferably with proper form and maximum effort. The end Until next bulking season.

Philip Pape: 18:39

Friends and listeners, if you enjoyed the story, I'd love to hear from you. Send me a message on Instagram at Wits and Weights, or join our free Facebook group and hang out with us as we get ready for the new year. Links are in the show notes. I wish you all the happiest of holidays, whatever you celebrate, and a healthy, strong and resilient new year. I'm Philip Pape and you're listening to the Wits and Weights Podcast. I'll talk to you next time.

The Most UNDERRATED Fat Loss Secret Making You FATTER (and Sabotaging Muscle Gain Too) | Ep 257

Download my free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint to structure your nutrition for optimal muscle gain while minimizing fat gain (or go to witsandweights.com/free)

—

Are you stuck in a cycle of constant cutting without real progress? Could gaining weight be the key to finally achieving a leaner physique? What if embracing the scale going up is the breakthrough you need?

Philip (@witsandweights) explores the paradox of weight gain for fat loss in today’s episode. Discover how your fear of gaining weight might be holding you back and why a strategic muscle-building phase is the missing piece in your fitness journey. Learn actionable steps to break free from the constant cutting cycle and transform your body composition for lasting results.

Philip shares real client stories, like Jenna, John, and Mark, whose journeys illustrate how building muscle while temporarily gaining weight can lead to a leaner, stronger, and more defined physique. Whether you're frustrated by slow progress, unsure how to manage a surplus, or looking for clarity on this counterintuitive approach, this delivers the mindset shift you need.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:40 The constant cutting trap and metabolic adaptation
4:44 Why building muscle is key to fat loss success
8:18 Body composition math: How gaining weight leads to leanness
11:10 Energy requirements for muscle growth
13:52 Step-by-step guide to starting a muscle-gaining phase
17:25 Training and tracking strategies during a surplus
18:31 Avoiding pitfalls like gaining too fast or cutting phases short
22:07 Patience and mindset: Trusting the process for long-term results
26:30 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download my free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint
  

The Underrated Fat Loss Secret Keeping You Stuck (And How to Fix It)

Are you caught in an endless loop of cutting calories, chasing the elusive "lean" physique, yet feeling stuck? This cycle of relentless dieting might actually be keeping you at a higher body fat percentage and sabotaging your muscle gain.

In this episode, we uncover the counterintuitive secret to achieving your dream body: strategic weight gain. Yes, gaining weight—done correctly—might be the most underrated fat-loss tool in your arsenal.

Why the Fear of Weight Gain Holds You Back

1. Metabolic Adaptation

Dieting for too long teaches your body to adapt, slowing calorie burn and making fat loss harder. Without a reset, your metabolism conserves energy, leaving you feeling stuck even with fewer calories.

2. Muscle is the Real Secret to Fat Loss

• Muscle is metabolically expensive, meaning it burns more calories at rest.

• Without enough calories, building muscle is nearly impossible, especially as you move beyond the beginner stage.

• Adding muscle increases your metabolic rate, improves your physique, and makes future fat loss easier.

3. Fear of Weight Gain Creates a Psychological Trap

Many people resist eating more because they associate it with “getting fat.” Ironically, this fear keeps them in a state of low muscle and higher fat, sabotaging long-term progress.

The Science of Building Muscle and Losing Fat

Take this simple example:

• A 150-pound person at 20% body fat has 30 pounds of fat and 120 pounds of lean mass.

• After a 10-pound weight gain (7 pounds muscle, 3 pounds fat) and a strategic cut, they end up at 157 pounds with a lower body fat percentage (19.1%).

• Despite weighing more, they look leaner, feel stronger, and have improved metabolic health.

The key takeaway? Strategic bulking and cutting cycles lead to a better long-term physique than endless dieting.

How to Start Your Gaining Phase

Step 1: Decide If You’re Ready

You’re a great candidate if:

• You’ve been stuck in a cutting cycle without progress.

• You’re “skinny fat” and lack muscle definition.

• You’ve been at the same weight for months or years without noticeable physique changes.

Step 2: Calculate Your Surplus

Aim for a slow, steady gain of 0.3–0.5% of body weight per week. For a 150-pound person, this means 0.5–0.75 pounds per week.

Step 3: Train Smart

Follow a program that combines:

• Compound lifts for strength (e.g., squats, deadlifts, bench press).

• Hypertrophy-focused exercises for muscle growth (e.g., bicep curls, lateral raises).

Step 4: Track Metrics

• Bodyweight: Monitor trends to ensure you’re gaining at the right pace.

• Measurements: Track waist, chest, and limb circumferences to gauge muscle vs. fat gain.

• Progress Photos: Look for improved definition and proportional growth over time.

• Performance: Ensure strength and volume are increasing in your workouts.

Avoid These Pitfalls

1. Gaining Too Fast
   Stick to a moderate calorie surplus to prevent unnecessary fat gain.

2. Not Training Hard Enough
   Without sufficient intensity in your workouts, you won’t provide the stimulus needed for muscle growth.

3. Panicking Over Scale Fluctuations
   Early water weight increases are normal due to glycogen storage and increased training volume. Trust the process.

4. Cutting the Phase Too Soon
   Give your body enough time (at least 3–6 months) to add meaningful muscle before transitioning to a cut.

The Mental Game of Strategic Weight Gain

The hardest part isn’t the mechanics—it’s overcoming the fear of seeing the scale go up.

• Understand that weight gain is temporary and controlled.

• Focus on long-term results: a leaner, stronger body.

• Use support systems, like a coach or community, to stay accountable.

Why the Best Transformations Start with Gaining

The most successful transformations come from embracing the counterintuitive: adding weight to lose fat. My client Mark, for instance, went from chasing a lower body fat percentage to gaining muscle strategically. After his bulking phase, cutting was easier, and he achieved a leaner physique at a higher weight.

Take Action Today

If you’re ready to break free from the cycle of constant cutting and want to build muscle the smart way, download my Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint for a step-by-step guide to gain muscle and minimize fat.

👉 Get the guide here

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're afraid to gain weight because the scale might go up. So you keep trying to diet down but never seem to get leaner, and you're frustrated because you feel stuck in this endless cycle of cutting calories without seeing real changes in your body composition. This episode is for you. Today, we're uncovering why your fear of gaining weight is actually keeping you at a higher body fat percentage, and how strategic weight gain could be the key to finally achieving a leaner physique. You'll discover the counterintuitive science behind why gaining weight first often leads to better long-term results, and how to break free from the constant cutting cycle that's keeping you stuck. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're tackling one of those huge mindset blocks that keeps people from achieving their ideal body composition the fear of weight gain, and how it's actually preventing you from getting leaner. Now I also have a companion guide that shows you exactly how to structure your nutrition to build muscle while minimizing fat gain, and if you want to pause the show and grab my free muscle building nutrition blueprint, the link is in the show notes or you can go to witsandweightscom and click free stuff to download. I highly encourage you to download this free guide now so you can take real action based on the information you're about to hear in today's episode. Again, the link is in the show notes. Or go to witsandweightscom, click free stuff for my muscle building nutrition blueprint.

Philip Pape: 1:39

All right, let me start by telling you about Jenna. She was a client of mine who came to me frustrated after about three years of trying to get lean. She weighed about 150 pounds and she was constantly cutting calories. She was constantly trying to lose that last bit of stubborn fat, but every time she dropped a few pounds she would end up gaining it back and then her body composition wasn't really changing. We could tell by her measurements how her clothes fit, performance, everything. So this might sound familiar to you, because it's a very common situation. People get stuck trying to cut all the time and never really doing the other side of this equation that we're going to address today. Now, what Jenna didn't realize, what many of you might not realize, is that she was stuck in a constant cutting trap, even in moments when it felt like she wasn't dieting per se. It was just always in that under-fueled, under-fed situation, and today we're going to break down why this might be keeping you fatter than you need to be and then what to do instead. So let's talk about why this happened, just to set the baseline.

Philip Pape: 2:42

When you're always trying to cut calories to lose weight, there are three things working against you. First, your metabolism adapts. This is totally normal. There's nothing wrong. It's not breaking or getting damaged. It's just called metabolic adaptation.

Philip Pape: 2:58

And I think of men in this case, for example, because I can relate as a man myself. I had a client we'll call him John. He had gotten down to eating about 1800 calories a day, and that's starting to get a little bit low for an active guy who strength trains and weighs north of 180 or almost 200 pounds and I'm actually kind of in that range where, to me, a pretty aggressive diet is around 1800 calories, worst case. So his body had adapted to functioning on these fewer calories because of persistently trying to cut. And then what that does is it makes the fat loss incredibly difficult from that point, because you kind of need to reset things and rejigger what's going on or take a completely different approach, such as gain weight, which we're going to talk about and this process of your body conserving energy, of reducing its calorie burn as you lose weight and as you get deeper into a diet and be in a calorie deficit. That's called metabolic adaptation.

Philip Pape: 3:53

The second thing is that without adequate calories period, you cannot build meaningful muscle. You need to be in a surplus, or I'll call it a perceived surplus, which for some people means they can walk that fine line between gaining some muscle and losing some fat at the same time, mainly for newer lifters. But you have to have some sort of surplus, an energy surplus, for your muscles to grow. And this is crucial because muscle is the key to all of this. It's the key, it's a secret weapon for the fat loss itself. It's kind of the big twist or the big irony is that the vast majority of you are probably spending years, if not decades, trying to cut, trying to lose fat. You absolutely want to lose the weight, you absolutely want to lose the fat and you're making it harder on yourself just because you don't take a short blip of your time to build muscle. Just to say it like it is, muscle is metabolically expensive tissue. It burns calories even when you're not doing anything, and I know other tissue can do that, too, like fat, but it burns the most, and adding muscle to your frame makes so many things easier, all right.

Philip Pape: 4:58

Third thing and this is what I see all the time in my coaching practice is people get stuck in a cycle where they are afraid to eat more because they might gain weight, because their history has told them that nothing I've ever done has worked, that I'm always prone to getting fatter or gaining weight. Why the heck would I do this on purpose? That's the thought that goes through our head. Why would I do this on purpose? I just had a call today with a client where we talked about how I needed her to eat more. She was hesitant to do it. It wasn't due to any logistical or behavioral reason. It was simply the fear holding her back, and there were a lot of things pointing to why she needed to do that. We'll cover some of that today. I don't want to stretch that story out, but it's very common, so don't feel alone if you're listening and think that's you. The irony is, of course, that this fear is what's keeping you from achieving the lean physique that you want.

Philip Pape: 5:51

All right, so let me explain how this works, because let's just nail it down for you and talk about the science or the mathematics. It's really math of body composition, and I'm an engineer, I think, in terms of numbers. Not a lot of people do, and so it can frustrate people to go through this exercise. I'm really going to try to simplify it so you understand the big aha moment that comes from this. This is where it gets really interesting. All right, I'm going to break down the numbers so you think about weight gain and fat loss, maybe in a new way.

Philip Pape: 6:19

So let's just use a simple hypothetical example. Let's say we have a skinny-ish male, a man who weighs about 150 pounds. Let's say 5'9", 150 pounds. That's pretty quote-unquote skinny, but he has a little bit of extra body fat. He's got 20% body fat. Now, that's not in the obese territory, that's not excessively overweight, but at 150 pounds, this person is going to look what we call skinny fat. I'm using this example because I want you to know that there are all types of body types where you can have extra body fat and not necessarily be big right, and so we're going to start with this example, just for easy numbers. So, 150 pounds, 20% body fat, that means he has 30 pounds of fat mass. Okay, that's 20% of the 150. I'm doing the math for you. Just go with the numbers 30 pounds of fat mass and the rest is 120 pounds of lean mass. That's the remaining 80 pounds, or 80%. Now, lean mass is not just muscle, it's also your bone, it's tissue, it's all of your organs. It's everything other than fat. But just keep this simple. So when you focus on building muscle instead of trying to cut calories, what can happen?

Philip Pape: 7:29

So let's say, over a four-month period, a nice conservative, reasonable rate of gain so you don't gain too much fat, you go from 150 to 160. You gain 10 pounds Okay, 10 pounds, not a big deal Through proper training and nutrition, and that is key. About six or seven or even eight of those pounds are muscle, especially for a newer lifter. A vast majority of that can be muscle. We're going to go with seven. It's about two thirds. The evidence is very, very strong in showing us that this is a common ratio. The more advanced you get, the more it trends toward 50-50. The newer you are, the more it trends toward 50-50. The newer you are, the more it trends toward 7 or 8 out of 10. So we're going to go with 7. Okay, if it's 6, it just changes the numbers a little bit. So you've gained 10 pounds, you're 160 pounds. 7 of that is muscle, 3 of it is fat. So you've gained some fat as well. But stay with me.

Philip Pape: 8:18

So, after this gaining phase, we do a simple cut to lose three pounds of fat. That's it. The final result looks like this your new body weight is now 157 pounds. Remember, you started at 150, you gained 10, you lost three. You're at 157 pounds. However, your new body fat percentage remember originally it was 20, it is now 19.1%. Now, the real thing we care about here is you're going to look leaner and more defined despite weighing more on the scale.

Philip Pape: 8:50

This is just the math and I may be stating the obvious for some of you, but others you may have your mind blown. And the reason you should have your mind blown is you just went from 150 pounds on the scale to 157 pounds on the scale and you dropped a percentage of body fat. And that's just a small, simple example of something extremely achievable in a fairly short timeframe for just about anyone. That's why I wanted to use that example. I didn't want to go with 20, 30, 40 pound swings either direction. You know we can get into that.

Philip Pape: 9:20

Just keeping it simple, you are now heavier on the scale and leaner. So think about it the same amount of fat mass, because you gained three pounds of fat while you were gaining the 10 pounds, but then you lost it. So same fat mass, but you have more muscle. Now you have seven more pounds of muscle, 127 versus 120. And so now you have a lower body fat percentage.

Philip Pape: 9:40

Now, the bonus here is, of course, you're probably going to have a higher metabolism. Now you weigh more, so you have to burn more calories, and the portion of that extra weight is muscle, which is even higher calorie burning. Now you can eat more food. Now you're going to have more energy because you're eating more food. Now you can perform better in the gym because you have more energy, because you're eating more food, and you can have more restful sleep and be stronger than ever. Isn't that cool? Now you might be thinking okay, philip, the math makes sense. I get it, but how do we make this happen? Because you say seven out of the 10 is muscle, but I'm still afraid that if I gain 10 pounds, it's going to be fat, and then I'm just worse off and I'm where I started, or worse than that Okay, and this is where we have to understand the science of muscle growth. And I want to break this down into practical terms because you, unlike the vast majority of people out there, are going to be doing a few things very differently than most people in terms of food, in terms of movement.

Philip Pape: 10:33

First, let's talk about why you need a calorie surplus to build meaningful muscle. All right, so I had another client I'm going to call him Mike. He was trying to re-comp, do body re-comp. He was trying to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, and he was eating at his maintenance calories, whatever those were at the time based on our tracking. He was lifting weights and he was getting frustrated because the changes were coming slowly. And why was he doing body recomp? Because he was afraid of gaining weight and the best thing that I could, I'll say, convince him to do was at least not cut right now. Let's at least try to hold steady and see what happens with our body composition, even though it's going to take time.

Philip Pape: 11:10

And I explained to him that, you know, building muscle is a very energy, expensive process. Your body needs the extra protein for the actual muscle tissue, it needs the extra calories to support the building process. It needs extra energy for recovery from training because you're going to train hard, and it needs resources for all the metabolic processes involved in your body. There's a lot going on to build this muscle and this is why research consistently shows that without a calorie surplus, muscle growth is significantly limited. And studies that look at natural lifters show that even in perfect conditions, you might gain one to two pounds of muscle per month as a beginner, and a half to one pound per month as an intermediate, and even less as you get more advanced. Okay now going back to that one to two pounds a month and the example I gave you of seven months, I think I said the 10 pounds was over four months. So what did that come out to be? Seven pounds of muscle. Of that, 10 pounds over four months just under two pounds. So I was going on a little bit slightly more aggressive side, but again, you could switch the math up, add an extra couple months to the time frame. It all works out.

Philip Pape: 12:13

The key here is that these rates are only possible in a calorie surplus. You're not going to gain at that rate. When you're at maintenance or at a deficit, the numbers drop dramatically. Yeah, sure, you might gain muscle, but now stretch out your time frame over years. And that's where the frustration lies, cause any little blip, any little interruption in your training or your life which happens all the time, especially as we get older, right, busier lives, more obligations You're just going to sabotage that. And so when people say, can I recomp, I'm like yes, under perfect conditions, or you can give yourself the benefit of life and go into a surplus, right? And that's why this constant cutting approach fails, because you're never giving your body the resources it needs to build the muscle that would ultimately make you leaner. So how do we actually put this into practice? You're like okay, what do I do? All right, after the break, I'm going to give you the step-by-step approach that I've used successfully with hundreds of clients.

Tony: 13:09

Stick around for that. My name is Tony. I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Wits and Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out All right, welcome back.

Philip Pape: 13:53

Let's start with how to implement a muscle gaining phase. First, you need to know when to start a gaining phase. Here are the best candidates from my experience and from what the evidence shows us. First, people who have been stuck in a cutting cycle. So if you've been going up and down, up and down, up and down, have not had progress, you're probably ready to try a muscle gaining phase. Just what's the worst that can happen? You gain a couple pounds of fat that you can cut off anyway. Yeah, but there's much more upside.

Philip Pape: 14:23

The second thing is those who can, for example, see their abs but they still feel skinny fat. There's a lot of you out there. You're like I don't want to lose my abs, but you don't have much muscle. What are those abs worth? What are they buying you? What are they giving you? I mean, if you are successful using your abs at something and you love what they give you, then maybe you're cool.

Philip Pape: 14:43

I'm guessing most people who are listening are like especially younger men, for example. I'd say most people who are listening are like especially younger men, for example, skinny men, but men, women, it doesn't matter who are just clinging on to being what they think is lean, but it's really just. They can kind of see some definition there because they don't have much weight on their body. They don't have much fat on their body but they also don't have much muscle right. So their body fat percentage is still quite higher than you would imagine. Like the original example 150 pounds, 20% body fat and to put that in comparison, when I am about 180, I'm about 20% body fat right, and guys I know are even leaner than that at 180, who've been doing it longer than me. So just keep that in perspective. Another person who this is good for anyone who's been at the same weight for months or years and who have not changed their physique All right, so kind of a similar situation, but different. Because you might be heavier, you might have a little extra fat and you're scared of gaining weight because you're like I got to lose this fat but maybe you're holding yourself back by not taking that opportunity. So let's talk about the actual process and I'm going to use another client, tom, as an example. I've got so many client stories that I can pull from here. It's a lot of fun really.

Philip Pape: 15:56

He started at 170, super common weight for guys that are like 5'8 to upwards of 5'11, even six feet, believe it or not. Some guys on the skinnier end right around there, 170 pounds, fairly quote-unquote lean, not happy with his physique, because really he had some extra body fat and didn't have much muscle. And I said, let's, we got to gain. And he was, he was good for it, right, he was cool with that Gaining phase. Let's go, let's, let's really push it at about 0.4% of your body weight gain per week. I'm not going to do all the math, but it comes out to several pounds a month, right, such that a decent chunk of that is going to be muscle. Going back to what I said before one to two pounds of muscle a month-ish.

Philip Pape: 16:36

We focused heavily on a training program that built his base of strength but also included some hypertrophy, some bodybuilding style stuff, so that he could really train hard and develop his physique at the same time and we can measure the physique as we go along. So that's the third part of this is monitoring his body composition changes, monitoring his bicep and chest size, for example for men, you know, that's a really great indication of body size. Making sure his waist size wasn't like ballooning up right, which it shouldn't. If you're going at a reasonable rate, you're not going to gain that much fat. You gain a little bit, so your waist is going to go up a little bit, but everything else is also going way up in terms of performance and strength and muscle. And, by the way, strength and muscle are sometimes proxies for each other, but not always. That's why you have to have a good coach and kind of understand how to train.

Philip Pape: 17:22

And so what did we track? Well, we track scale weight, obviously. We look at the trend of weight, make sure that it's trending up at the right rate and not too much, but also not too slowly. Where he's stuck, where he's in a hard gaining phase and we need to eat more, so we track that. We make sure that his strength and his performance and his reps and his volume should all be going up on his program. We look at measurements that show, you know, proportional changes, whatever those are. I mentioned the body metrics before.

Philip Pape: 17:55

Progress photos. Yes, progress photos can be a little deceiving during a gaining phase because again, you have some of the fat coming along from the muscle. So with a shirt on, you should kind of notice, especially as a guy, but even women, you know you've got your arms are starting to pop your delts, your shoulder caps are starting to pop nice back all of that. If you took your shirt off, yeah, you might have a little extra fat covering your abs, right. So that's kind of where we can play mind games with ourselves if we're not careful and having a coach to kind of look at that objectively and be like, no, it's cool, you know, yeah, of course your waist is up a half inch or an inch since we started, but look at all this exceptional growth in other areas of your physique.

Philip Pape: 18:31

And then there are the things that we want to avoid, the pitfalls that I see all the time. The first one is actually gaining too fast, which is, I'll say, for beginners and intermediates. My current recommendations are up to about 0.4 to 0.5% of your body weight per week max, and some of you might be more comfortable around that 0.3% of your body weight per week. But if you're gaining, like you know, over a pound a week, then that's probably way too much. Like that's just a simple rule of thumb.

Philip Pape: 19:07

The second thing is not pushing hard enough in your training. You don't want to waste the time you're doing in the stimulus. I'm not saying that you should ever not train hard enough. That's true you should, but there's something about knowing you've got the calories and the energy coming in that you've got to be dialed in enough where you're not constantly taking breaks, because if you're going on vacations and going on travel and shifting and skipping workouts, then you probably are going to gain more fat. And if you're going to do that, I would want to plan in times of potentially at maintenance instead of in a surplus, to prevent that.

Philip Pape: 19:41

The next thing is getting spooked by the normal water weight fluctuations that occur, which includes gaining early on. So your first few weeks you're going to gain a decent pop in weight and it's not necessarily you're gaining too fast, it's because of the water, the fluid, the carbs, and then it normalizes and then you're good to go. So the first few weeks, just let what happens happens it's not a big deal and then you can really have the data dialed in after that. And then, of course, that leads to people cutting the gaining phase short at the first sign that they're gaining too much fat or getting uncomfortable. And that could be as short, you know, as long as even three or four months, when we're intending to gain for, say, six or nine, and you're like, oh, it's three months and I'm just not liking it. You've got to stick it out. And again, this is where having support and having numbers and having data can really be helpful, because it is very easy to panic when the scale goes up three pounds in that first week, but when you know why this happens, you realize it's totally normal, right?

Philip Pape: 20:38

Most of the water weight is, or most is, water weight from increased carbs, glycogen, training, volume, inflammation. Your measurements in that week, you'll notice, probably didn't change at all. Even your waist. Even when you feel a little bloated, even when you have a little extra weight, you'd be surprised that your waist measurement didn't even change. I mean, if you're a bigger person, it might go up like a quarter inch, if that's even. It's in the noise. Your strength, though, should start to take off. I mean, for some people it's literally the next day after you have that first big meal bigger than you've been eating, and I was like, oh man, my deadlift just shot up. I've seen that happen. And then, after about two to three weeks, your weight will start to stabilize. So the magic here happens when you stick with the process long enough to get to that anabolic environment and see meaningful muscle growth right.

Philip Pape: 21:25

Remember the examples from earlier okay, many of my clients who get started on this journey, especially a lot of women, are convinced that the strategy is backfiring about six weeks in. Okay, six weeks, because the first three weeks they got through the waterway Okay, they're good, and then another three weeks in you're like is anything even happening? And yet I'm eating all this food and I'm feeling kind of full all the time. Right, there's a lot of mind games that go on, but then by I'm going to say week 12, which is three months in, that's when you're going to start seeing definition, really, that you've never seen before. If you're doing this right, even though you're technically heavier and you have a little more body fat, when you're really doing it right, that's where the gains start to pay off.

Philip Pape: 22:07

And this brings me to a crucial point about patience and mindset, because I think I said it before, the biggest obstacle is not the physical process. You get that, you get the numbers, you get that this is important. Hopefully, you've listened to Wits and Weights for a while and if you haven't plenty of episodes in the library about this, it's not that, it's not the physical process. I can tell you exactly what to do. You can go download my blueprint that I mentioned earlier. It'll tell you what to do. Great, it's the mental game of being okay with short-term weight gain. To have that long-term success, that ease of carrying around this extra lean tissue, eating more food, having more energy, looking and feeling great and better, even at a higher scale weight, you have to trust the process and the mathematics that we talked about earlier. But yeah, it can definitely be a mental game. So here's what might surprise you, because I always like to end with a little bit of a moment at the end of these shows. After working with hundreds of clients, I've noticed something and that is that the ones who achieved the most dramatic transformations you know we love the before and after photos, but the ones who achieve the most dramatic ones are not the ones who diet the hardest and are trying to stay lean year round. It is the people who embrace the counterintuitive approach of strategically gaining weight to build muscle period. The people who are willing to jump into that are the ones that have success. It might take some time, it might take working through the mental side, it might take some emotional support along the way, but it will pay off.

Philip Pape: 23:45

Take Mark I think I mentioned him. He was one of my most successful clients. He spent years trying to get below that magical 15% body fat for men by constantly cutting. I think he was doing carnivore. He was doing all these diets, you know, trying to like eat the same food all the time rice and broccoli and chicken or whatever. And we're like let's just throw all that out. Man, you can enjoy lots of different foods, you can enjoy a decent amount of calories. That out, man, you can enjoy lots of different foods, you can enjoy a decent amount of calories. You've got to commit to a proper, steady and long enough gaining phase and then we can follow that with strategic cut. And that's what we did, right. So he trusted me. He's like all right, I put my trust in your hands. Let's go six, nine months hard out on the gaining.

Philip Pape: 24:23

We had lots of discussions about like oh man, I'm noticing extra fat and blah, blah, blah. But I said but what is going well? Oh well, my deadlift keeps climbing, my squat keeps climbing, I feel great, my leverages are good. Like on and on and on. That's what we need to focus on. And guess what he ended up at the 12% body fat, I think, was the number right. He ended up doing better than, I think, most people when they try to do this. He just had a propensity for it, but he had never given himself the chance to build the muscle first, and I think what happened is his body just super responded to the stimulus and he just slapped on some meat to his body and then now the fat loss is easy, right, and he could get to that 12% body fat, weighing 10 pounds more than when he started. That's the part that's so cool, right? The key isn't just that physical transformation, even though it is amazing. It's the mental freedom of no longer fearing the scale going up.

Philip Pape: 25:18

All right, next week we are going to dive deeper into exactly how to structure your year as we're closing on the end of the year here. So, thinking ahead to next year, whenever you're listening to this, it doesn't matter how to structure a 12 month period between your bulking and cutting phases to set yourself up for an incredible 2025 or whatever year. You're looking ahead and I'm probably going to give you some different scenarios, but I'm going to try to simplify it and give you a single 12 month period that you can then shift left or right, depending on where your starting point is. Today I'm going to break down the timing, how to know which phase to start with, how to transition between phases for the best results, and then you know, we'll talk about that next week, but today I want you to remember that the fear of gaining weight is probably the thing keeping you at a higher body fat percentage than necessary, right? So having absorbed today's episode will set you up well for next week's, next Monday's.

Philip Pape: 26:15

I have other episodes before then, but next Monday's episode where we talk, where we help you structure out the cutting and bulking phases all right, because the math doesn't lie. Sometimes you have to be willing to see the scale go up temporarily to achieve the leaner physique in the long run, and that was really my message for today. All right, if you're ready to break free from the constant cutting and you want to learn how to build muscle the smart way, the how-to, the steps, download my free muscle building nutrition blueprint using the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free. This guide is going to walk you through exactly how to structure your nutrition for optimal muscle gain and minimal fat gain. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember sometimes the fastest way to get lean is to gain weight first. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast. Thank you.

Does YOUR Doctor Lift Weights? (Dr. Spencer Nadolsky) | Ep 256

Download 8 free workout programs for strength and physique, novice and intermediate, 3 and 4 days, full gym and limited equipment, with exercise videos and substitutions or go to witsandweights.com/free

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Do doctors really understand your fitness goals? Why do some medical professionals discourage lifting weights? Can the medical system truly embrace lifestyle changes as part of healthcare?

Philip (@witsandweights)  gets real with Dr. Spencer Nadolsky, a triple board-certified obesity and lipid specialist, former heavyweight wrestler, and co-host of the Docs Who Lift podcast.

Dr. Nadolsky brings a refreshing perspective to healthcare by combining evidence-based medicine with real-world fitness expertise. He is a prominent advocate for combating misinformation on social media, often using humor and memes to educate and challenge misconceptions in the medical and fitness communities.

Together, they explore why doctors who lift weights and practice a fitness lifestyle could revolutionize healthcare for patients like you.

Discover why traditional medical advice often misses the mark for fitness enthusiasts, the myths about weightlifting and health, and actionable ways to find doctors who align with your fitness journey.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:32 When doctors get fitness wrong and handling online criticism
11:12 Why lifestyle changes aren’t emphasized and training transforms care
20:09 Overcoming stigma: Doctors and lifting
25:57 Barriers to meeting physical activity guidelines
31:28 The truth about GLP-1 drugs and obesity
38:20 Practical, accessible behavior changes
42:50 The power of lifting to catalyze lifestyle shifts
46:09 Rapid fire: Seed oils, influencers, and fad diets
49:20 Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: drspencer.com

• Instagram: @drnadolsky

• Threads: @drnadolsky

• Podcast: Docs Who Lift

Why Doctors Who Lift Are Changing the Game

Ever felt like your doctor doesn’t “get” your fitness goals? You’re not alone. Many fitness enthusiasts encounter healthcare professionals who recommend generic advice like “eat less and exercise more” without factoring in the nuances of lifting, nutrition, and body composition. But there’s hope: doctors like Dr. Spencer Nadolsky are leading a movement to bridge the gap between evidence-based medicine and practical fitness.

In this episode, we explore why lifting weights isn’t just good for your body—it’s transforming healthcare. Dr. Nadolsky shares his journey as a physician who lifts and provides actionable advice on how to navigate a medical system that often undervalues lifestyle-driven health.

Why Doctors Need to Pick Up a Barbell

Healthcare has long focused on treating symptoms rather than preventing disease. According to Dr. Nadolsky, this outdated approach ignores one of the most effective health tools available: strength training.

The Problem with Traditional Healthcare

• Dismissive Attitudes Toward Lifting: Many doctors recommend cardio over weights, even when resistance training offers unique benefits like bone density improvement, muscle preservation, and metabolic health.

• Time Constraints: Physicians often have limited time during appointments, leaving little room to discuss sustainable lifestyle habits.

• Bias and Dogma: Some doctors push specific diets or approaches—like keto or plant-based—without considering individual preferences or what’s truly sustainable.

Why More Doctors Are Lifting

The new wave of doctors understands that health isn’t one-size-fits-all. Dr. Nadolsky and others are incorporating lifting and nutrition into patient care, offering advice that aligns with real-world fitness practices.

What to Do If Your Doctor Doesn’t Lift

1. Take Control of Your Health

Don’t wait for your doctor to recommend lifting or optimal nutrition. Educate yourself and seek professionals—like nutrition coaches or physical therapists—who align with your goals.

2. Find a Doctor Who Gets It

Look for physicians who are familiar with strength training and modern nutrition science. Social media platforms like Instagram and Threads can be great tools to find healthcare providers like Dr. Nadolsky who blend fitness and medicine.

3. Advocate for Yourself

If your doctor dismisses lifting or other fitness-related goals, don’t be afraid to ask questions and share your perspective. Many doctors are open to learning from patients, especially when presented with evidence-based approaches.

Why Lifting Changes the Game

Strength training isn’t just about aesthetics or gym PRs. Here’s why it should be part of every health conversation:

• Muscle is Medicine: Resistance training helps regulate blood sugar, supports joint health, and combats age-related muscle loss.

• Appetite Regulation: Strength training can influence hunger hormones and improve adherence to dietary goals.

• Injury Recovery and Prevention: Contrary to outdated advice, lifting can aid recovery after surgery and prevent future injuries by strengthening connective tissues.

How to Build a Patient-Doctor Partnership

1. Start with the Basics

If you’re new to strength training, begin with simple movements and gradually build confidence. Share your progress with your doctor to demonstrate the impact.

2. Look for Specialists

If you’ve had an injury or surgery, seek out physical therapists or orthopedic surgeons who understand the value of lifting. Dr. Nadolsky emphasizes that recovery plans should encourage—not restrict—movement.

3. Focus on Sustainable Habits

Whether it’s lifting, walking, or improving your nutrition, find strategies you enjoy and can stick to long-term. Remember: the best health plan is the one you’ll actually follow.

The Future of Fitness-Driven Healthcare

The medical landscape is slowly evolving. With more doctors lifting and embracing evidence-based fitness practices, the gap between healthcare and lifestyle medicine is narrowing.

But the change starts with you. By prioritizing your fitness, seeking out like-minded professionals, and advocating for your goals, you’re contributing to a revolution in how health is approached.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Do you feel surrounded by doctors who don't understand your fitness goals or who dismiss your lifting and nutrition approach? Imagine walking into your next doctor appointment and having an intelligent conversation about protein intake, lifting heavy and body composition goals, instead of just being told to eat less and exercise more. Today, we're sitting down with a doctor who lifts weights and wants to transform healthcare by combining medicine with real-world fitness experience. You'll learn how to find doctors who actually get it, what to do when they don't and, most importantly, how to take control of your health while working within the medical system. If you're frustrated with the typical medical advice or simply want to optimize your health beyond what typical healthcare offers, this episode will give you the blueprint to bridge the gap between your fitness goals and your medical care. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:01

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm excited to have Dr Spencer Nadalsky on the show to reveal why healthcare desperately needs more doctors who themselves practice a fitness lifestyle. Now, dr Spencer isn't your typical physician. He's an obesity and lipid specialist who's competed as a heavyweight wrestler and football player before becoming a doctor. He's working hard to connect traditional medicine with accessible lifestyle changes and is a self-proclaimed meme specialist who calls out the charlatans on social media, whether they're doctors or not. He's also the co-host of the Docs who Lift podcast. Today, you'll learn why even well-meaning doctors often don't understand fitness and nutrition, how having physicians who lift weights could transform healthcare, and what it really takes to combine evidence-based medicine with practical training and nutrition. Plus, we might discuss some simple, uncontroversial topics like the root cause of obesity and the future of healthcare. Dr Spencer, welcome to the show.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 1:58

Thanks for having me, buddy.

Philip Pape: 1:59

All right, man. So I've been following your stuff for a while and I definitely encourage folks to check you out, both on Instagram and on threads. Your feed is full of memes about what people say about doctors and what doctors say and things like GLP-1 and all the fun stuff Diet Coke, you name it and you've defended physicians who have good intentions, so we're definitely not here to bash doctors, which you are.

Philip Pape: 2:21

So let's start with the crazy stuff to set the stage. I'm curious what's a ridiculous but typical advice that you hear doctors give, related to, say, exercise or lifting weights?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 2:31

Yeah, I mean, the most common thing that I see is when patients are lifting weights themselves and they go and they're kind of proud about it and the doctor will say, well, you shouldn't do that, that's not good for you, you need to go run instead. And it's like will say, well, you shouldn't do that, that's not good for you, you need to go run instead. And it's like you know to be really patient centric, you should applaud their efforts of whatever they're doing for lifestyle change and the doctor should know that lifting weights is good for them. Unfortunately, I'd say it's actually probably some of the older doctors that are probably on their way out. Kind of the newer line of thinking is like, hey, probably any physical activity at this point is good and lifting weights is is a very healthful thing to do, obviously, as you know. But it's it's so anti-patient and this is kind of what causes some of that distrust in the medical profession is when they kind of wag their finger and say, no, no, you should be doing this, and especially when it's completely wrong. So one of them is the whole like no cardio is better than weights and like, obviously I promote a combination of the two. But more importantly, what will the patient actually do? Go with that? If, like if, a patient told me like I don't want to lift weights at all, it's miserable, I just want to run and be physically active, I'd say, okay, great, you know, maybe you just haven't done some sort of weight lifting or resistance training that was at all enjoyable. And then we go from there. But sometimes they refuse and I wouldn't be like you shouldn't run, you should only lift weights. So when people do that, the opposite, the other thing that I see is, of course, really it's a lot related to nutrition. Some doctors have a plant-based bias, some doctors have a keto uh kind of bias, and so they'll kind of push patients in one way or the other.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 4:19

You know, I I had a more low carb bias. Uh, a lot of my mentors were looking back, they were low carb zealots. When I was going through med school, I mean, like I was hanging out with some of the famous low carb doctors that I now kind of make fun of. It's really funny. I was a student at the time just learning, and now I'm like, okay, but you know, but then going through and actually taking care of patients, and I'd be like, okay, going through and actually taking care of patients and I'd be like, okay, you gotta kind of go low carb and be like, well, no, I actually lost 100 pounds doing this kind of high carb, uh, low fat, plant based type of diet.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 4:52

I'd be like, all right, am I gonna tell this patient that that was stupid and wrong? No, I'm not gonna tell them that, but you'll see it all the time online. So patient will do, let's say, a carnivore diet. They'll feel good about themselves and they'll go in to the doctor and tell them about it and the doctor will wag the finger, hear this patient like I like making fun of keto and carnivore and stuff like that. But I'm not going to tell a patient that they're an idiot for having just probably changed their life around from following it. I'm going to make sure that some of the blood markers are okay because of it can alter some of those unfavorably, but it can improve a lot of markers in their health very favorably and it would be really anti-patient to kind of wag your finger at them.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 5:38

So kind of that dietary dogma that some of these doctors bring in. It's just, it's really too bad. And also I don't even know if I blame the doctors as much as they blame the system. Basically, right now, what we're seeing and this is the threads is kind of hilarious. It's it's. You see it on x as well too.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 5:56

But there's different crowds, uh, at each of these places. And if I say something like hey, seed oils probably aren't as bad as what people are saying, like you can take them or leave them, I don't really care, and what these people are, like you just big pharma shill, like you're clearly getting paid by the government to make a meme. I'm like, if the government's paying me to make memes on threads and what I like, then we got bigger problems because, like they shouldn't be paying me anything to be posting any of this stuff. But there's a lot of this kind of anti-doctor sentiment where I think a lot of it's just the system and I think hopefully in the future we see this taken back by the doctors to kind of overhaul the system. It's a long ways away. We can get into that a little bit, but I think a lot of it's a system.

Philip Pape: 6:44

Yeah, no, I mean everything you say I resonate so hard with. I'm in my forties and just in the time I've been seeing physicians and specialists over the last 20 years and then when I got into lifting like five years ago, I seen that kind of bifurcation between different generations. But but not only that cause, I've had doctors who are like in their 60s, who are super open to learning and being, you know, like you said, patient centric, which that's the root cause of a lot of it. People feel like they're being gaslit and all of that and whatever it is. And then the idea that adherence, sustainability, is probably the most important thing, because if you're just not doing it, going to do it, forget it doesn't matter what you're doing. But there's a big anti-doctor sentiment. What I like about what you call out is people, you know, fear monger over silly things and stuff.

Philip Pape: 7:26

They forget the fundamentals whether it's seed oils or diet soda, whatever, yeah Right.

Philip Pape: 7:31

And it gets a lot of views and likes. So I know you you like take advantage of that, which is fine you know, cause it gets the message out.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 7:36

It's a lot of hate. A lot of hate too, although I guess the hate can bring engagement, which then brings the people that are that enjoy it too. The reason I say it is also is because it's it's like just a sarcastic, like, very like these people are idiots, but I'm going to say this sarcastically, and so that makes the, it makes other people laugh and then it pisses off the, the people that want to piss off. But those people get. They get really mad. I'm like this is just the internet, like you guys are like why are you so mad about this?

Philip Pape: 8:06

I know, and if they met you in person. You know that I always think, like if you met another person who posts something online in person, would you respond that way, because people hide behind this insanity.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 8:17

It's bizarre behavior. I've not seen anything like it.

Philip Pape: 8:20

How does that make you feel like in terms of do you get stressed out or do you lose sleep over some of the negativity? I don't lose sleep.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 8:27

There were. There was a time, probably 10 or so years ago, where once in a while I could lose sleep over it, because it was kind of newer back then and it would really make me mad. My skin's gotten a lot thicker and so, like I'm used to it. Some people it's just like, okay, this person's being very aggressive, I have to block them. Other people I'll restrict them. Other like a lot of some people come in and you can tell they're coming in good faith, like, and they'll even say like you know, I'm not trying to troll you, I really have this genuine question. I will engage in those people and the other people that come in shooting like really hard, sometimes I will, I'll even and some people think this is the wrong thing to do, but I'll respond, quote, respond, so not respond in the thread. I will quote it and make a very sarcastic, passive-aggressive comment and then that one will go gangbusters viral.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 9:28

Some people like you're engaging in the with the trolls, don't feed them. But I think sometimes fighting back and showing like hey, you're not going to, like you can't just try to bully me Like I'm not, I'm not even bullying anybody, I'm just making funny comments. And then people try to come in and harass and bully. I'm like, all right, you want to go, let's go. You have like 30 followers and a private account.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 9:51

But my favorite is looking like there was one the other day where someone's like you just shut up, you're such an idiot, you're a shill, indoctrinated doctor in their thing. It's that their profile. They had like 50 followers. They sell vintage t-shirts. So I said, well, this is interesting, you sell vintage t-shirts. I'm a triple board certified physician and I even said I don't want to appeal to authority, but I'm going to address these concerns so that it makes a sarcastic comment and then I'm able to give an educational lesson during it. But some people are like that's feeding the trolls. I'm like I don't know. I don't know what the right answer is, but I I mean those sometimes make the best topics.

Philip Pape: 10:31

honestly, like I know, if I do an episode and it's coming out maybe for this one called about carbs, like even just with carbs in the title, I think this one's called the number one reason to eat more carbs and it's about how it's anti-catabolic or whatever. I know I'm going to get tons of trolls from that just because people are dead set in their mindset. So I like what you're doing. So, getting back to the specific topic, then I mean, how did you get to this point? If you look at your medical training and practice, where you're like either I've had enough with this and I need to start speaking out, or was there a moment in your training where you thought either something's missing or maybe things are moving in the right direction, but people need to hear about it when it comes to what we think of as traditional medical care.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 11:12

Yeah. So you go through four years of medical school, which honestly I think is probably too long. I think we could actually make it three years. That's a whole nother topic for another day. But I felt like my fourth year of like you could do a lot of electives and I'm, and like I'm ready to go start seeing patients and because that's the way you really learn fair um is actually seeing patients, seeing what happens.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 11:33

You learn all this stuff from med school, in the classroom, but then actually like practicing is. It's so much different if people, you have all this medical knowledge but you don't actually know how to use it. Anyway, that's another, totally another topic. But you go through four years of medical school for the time being and then you go to your, your specialty training. I did family medicine, which is the broadest of all the medicine, and that's three years. Some other specialties are three years. They go up to like eight years if you're doing like neurosurgery, and then after that you can actually do fellowships and then specialize further and then some people are in training forever. But I remember my first year of residency, which is called your internship year. First of all, I knew right away. I was like wow, the practice of medicine. This where we bring people and they take a half day off work to come sit in a waiting room full of the waiting room. Full of not a weight room but a waiting room full of It'd be nice if it was a weight room.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 12:30

Yeah that would be nice.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 12:32

If these people are sick they're coming in for just their physical or whatever, but they're around other sick people coughing and wheezing and then you get like 20 minutes with them. You don't get enough time to actually spend teaching lifestyle to the patient. I knew right away when I started seeing valves like this is an archaic, inefficient, just ridiculous way of practicing medicine. And one of the my first quarterly evaluation from what we call the attending doctors was my advisor. There are multiple advisors at the residency. The comment was that they thought I was a little bit of a zealot in terms of lifestyle and I was like, huh, that's interesting. Like you know not to brag, but my board scores show that I know the pharmacology pretty well here and I know all the pathophysiology. I'm just trying to embrace lifestyles because that that is the right way to do it teaching page like it. In fact, when you look at all the major chronic disease guidelines, people like, oh, they're all big doctors want to do and all these organizations are in cahoots to sell more drugs. And when you look at all the number one recommendations lifestyle it always is, doesn't matter if it's osteoarthritis, doesn't matter if it's sleep apnea, doesn't matter. Obviously cardiovascular disease, hyperlipidemia, hypertension, obesity, all the different things related to lifestyle. The number one thing is like lifestyle changes and then it goes into the pharmacotherapy. But I was told that I was a zealot. My first quarterly evaluation. I called my brother right afterwards. I was pretty upset and he was like, well, you just do what you think is is right and you'll be fine.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 14:18

By my third year, my last like evaluation, they were like you know what? We were wrong. Uh, you're actually a champion for what is the right way to do this. And in fact the they, a lot of those attendings, started getting into lifestyle themselves because I just kept promoting and promoting it. It felt good, felt vindicated. But um, it's a systemic and system issue.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 14:45

So obviously, the people that go into medicine, that matters, because if someone goes into medicine because they're interested in surgery only they might not be into helping people with lifestyle. So they just want to go in and make a lot of money cut. People drive a Porsche. I don't know, that's not the majority of people, but there are people like that. But other people they just, you know, they're smart and they were like what should I do? I should go be a doctor, I guess, I don't know, that's probably a bad reason, but you should see a lot of people that think that way and they're like, oh, this is kind of miserable and not that fun.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 15:18

So first of all it from the very beginning of med school there should be this emphasis of and now people will say doctors need to learn a lot more about nutrition. I don't think doctors need to be the ones knowing the ins and outs all about nutrition and how to deliver it. I think they need to understand that nutrition and exercise just have major impacts on patients and should know behavior change and understand ways of improving the barriers to what patients go through that stop them, prevent them or hinder them from doing those behavior changes. Here's this pathology, it's XYZ disease and here's how to fix it.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 16:11

And just pepper in every bit that they can about lifestyle. It has to start early and it has to be constant. It's just like anything else. And then from there, same thing through residency. It has to be pushed. There has to be ways Now. But on another, system-wide level, even if the doctor wants to do it, we need to find ways to make it easier to implement and this is where some of the new admin maybe I don't know, maybe they'll they'll make this better, but there's there's been some talks about reimbursing, uh, primary care doctors to actually do this. So right now, you're not really incentivized. People are like all doctors want it. They're incentivized to push drugs. Well, we don't get kickbacks. People listening to this I see it all the time and I actually make a post about it every week on threads.

Philip Pape: 16:55

Yeah, you talk about it a lot.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 16:57

And every time the post gets like 500 to 1,000 likes, but there's always comments like yes, you do you hundred to a thousand likes, but there's always comments like, yes, you do, you make money from prescribing drugs.

Philip Pape: 17:08

I go, we don't conferences and yeah, I'm like I personally don't I actually uh, decline all the money.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 17:12

I've been offered a lot. I don't do it just because it's public. I don't want people to think that I'm um, being swayed by big pharma, so I don't. But like doctors in general, you know most doctors aren't speaking for pharmaceutical companies but there's this thought that doctors are getting kickbacks for prescribing meds and that that's why they do it. It's not that. It's that the system incentivizes just doing that and not even talking about lifestyle, cause imagine you have to keep the lights on and the reimbursement keeps going down, down, down. You reimbursements higher for doing a procedure, so like having somebody into the cath lab where they stick the thing up their legs, the catheter up their legs and then inserting a stent what's called a stent, like a little spring thing to open up their arteries. They get a lot of money for that.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 18:02

Ideally we should have prevented that in the first place. But the primary care doctors they need to see a bunch of patients per day to make ends meet, in order to pay for the bills, and that's part of that's also big corporations, big hospital systems owning and doing it so like they force the doctors to do it, whereas if the doctors just owned it themselves and had better reimbursement, they wouldn't have to see a million patients per day. So you're incentivized to just like hey, I die in exercise, fine, but here's this medicine. The other thing is. So let's say they try to do it, they try to do the lifestyle, like me, and during residency. A lot of patients unfortunately don't want to change, they just want the pill, and that's something we have to accept. So what then happens is that doctors who do want to do it get burnt out. But imagine if there is an incentive to continue to push it and it wouldn't burn the doctors out Again. This is like a large systemic change that would need to happen. It's a big undertaking.

Philip Pape: 19:04

Which then raises the question what can we, as in the listeners and people who are actively in control of their own healthcare, do about some of this in the meantime, Because you mentioned some really enlightening things for folks, like one being that the system incentivizes this or that we get it, another being that lifestyle itself has shown to be probably the first and best go-to solution for many, many things, and again, I've seen that personally, I have some little conditions here and there. One of them is an esophageal condition, eoe, and I remember the doctor constantly saying look, there's an elimination diet you can try and that's probably what you want to do. When I saw that I had to eliminate 80% of what I liked, I said no, give me the drug, right, I had to eliminate 80% of what I liked.

Philip Pape: 19:44

I said, no, give me the, give me the drug, right, Like? I mean, the patient will do that, You're right. But the other thing that comes to mind is what about? I have a GP and I'm not going to name him who he's just not in good health, Like I could tell he's not in good health, like physically or otherwise. What do we do about that in terms of, I mean, we're not going to make doctors themselves lift weights and everything and everything, but is there something at the medical school level that can change that? Or what are your thoughts on that, when a doctor itself doesn't seem to be healthy?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 20:09

Yeah, you know it's an interesting thing. So like it's a logical fallacy to say this doctor is not healthy, so they're not a good doctor. Now, having said that, though, if the doctor is not healthy, some of the studies show that they're not as likely to maybe recommend the lifestyle changes there's. Also, potentially patients may not respond as well if they were. Now there's some of that data's mix. I've seen some kind of contradictory information there. So like, let's say, the doctor's struggling with their weight themselves, but they're trying and they try to help their patient, the patient will respond to that. But if, let's say, they just kind of give this lackadaisical and it's clear that they're not putting in a lot of effort, the patient may not respond as favorably to, and or the doctor won't even give that recommendation. So how to change that? I mean, you know I I promote how. Obesity is a disease and we can get into that. That's not a communicable disease where you catch it, although some people think that is possible, but it's. It's not one of those things. It's physiopathophysiological level. It's just more it kind of fits that chronic disease model, kind of like type 2 diabetes. So a lot of people struggle with it. Doctors can struggle with it. But I think if we try to again, starting in medical school, really promote this idea of, like, healthy living and some of these medical schools are, it's kind of this more forward thinking way they're teaching them how to cook, they're teaching them which we all should have cooking skills by the time we're in med school it's after college, but some people just don't know how to. Some people have never touched a weight before. Some people have never done physical activity. So then I do think it's important to doctors should be at least trying to practice what they preach. I don't think they need to look like bodybuilders or anything like that, but they ideally would be trying their best to have their own lifestyle be good. It doesn't mean that if they don't have that, they don't have the brain or the smarts and the right recommendations. Like, for example, there was just a post the other day that said if your doctor can't do a couple pull-ups, you need to find another doctor. And someone was like well, god, I don't care if my oncologist or my whoever can do a couple pull-ups, I want to make sure, I want to know that they're, that they're a good doctor. So, like you know, that's a little bit extreme, it's more so. This like, hopefully that they're trying to live their own healthy lifestyle, and then they're. But we're all kind of human, you know.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 22:56

Yeah, trying to think of some unhealthy things that I do. I sometimes, at night, I'll snack on some like potato chips, because it's like kettle if they're in the house. If they're not in the house, I don't need them. Lime, actually lime, uh, tortilla, hint of lime, tortilla chips. It cannot be in the house. I will, I'll put the kids down, I'll grab a handful with some salsa and it's just, it's so. It's the salty crunchy flavor that's just great.

Philip Pape: 23:20

Yeah, yeah, so anyway I have some beds.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 23:23

I I can't say that I'm perfect by any means, but but, like you know, obviously I live a mostly healthful lifestyle. So, again, ideally, again. But people are behavior, change is tough and most I was just looking at how many people follow the current healthcare guidelines so I posted this on threads about how like people are, like the government doesn't promote exercise, the government doesn't care if you're healthy and I'm like. Well, the cdc has their recommendations for physical activity. It talks about 150 minutes physical activity and that's in addition to two days a week of strength training. Those are pretty like and it's very few people actually get that. I mean it's. I was looking it up. It was around maybe a 25% of people hit those numbers, but I can't even imagine 25% of people actually hit those numbers, cause like like that's two days a week of strength. How many people are actually doing that part? Let alone the 150 minutes of, uh, moderate intensity aerobic training. I just I don't anyway. So, um, but getting people to do it, it's tough, it's just tough.

Philip Pape: 24:27

Yeah, it is tough. I mean, I know sometimes you make fun of nutrition coaches, which I am, and that's cool, cause I get where you're coming from, especially when they say things like you know, doctors don't get any nutrition training and stuff like that. But a lot of us got into this, seeing the behavior change side of it as being the obstacle for a lot of folks. Right, and now you got me thinking. When it comes to GPs, and primary care is potentially being incentivized, I could see that being its own specialty almost, of preventive care, like you get in you have a GP and or a behavior physician, I don't know what you'd call it, but like that, that's an interesting concept because you're right, that would, that would and that would save healthcare a lot of money. That would save insurance companies a lot of money too. I think it's not that they don't get it right, but it's a huge system with a lot of friction in it.

Philip Pape: 25:14

So I mean, what about the lifting part of it? So you're a doc who lifts weights. You talk about it with your brother on the show all the time. I guess the younger doctors are getting more into it. I know one of my surgeons. I had back surgery. He was definitely catering to athletes and you can see it in his language and understanding of it. He knew. So one of the biggest things, Spencer, is when you get injured or you have surgery or you're older, there's all these fears about getting hurt and you shouldn't lift anymore or you shouldn't get back to lifting Right and like. First thing I wanted to do after back surgery was get my deadlift back up and then hit a pr.

Philip Pape: 25:46

You know like and some people be like you're crazy, you can't do that.

Philip Pape: 25:49

So, like, what are your thoughts on that? Again, I don't know how we can change the whole system, but just for the listener who lifts?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 25:56

this is where it has to start med school and and then obviously, if they're doing, if they're a surgeon, they went through training the old guard and this is going to sound ageist, it's like I'm not woke or anything like that, but of course I make. I'm like people online are like you're a woke, elitist, liberal, democrat, doctor and I'm like man, if you knew me, I'm, you know I'm not like that, but like so I'll post and then I'll, you know, get it from the, the right and I'll get it. I'll get heat from the left. So if I post something like you're an ageist, ableist, I'm like no, no, I swear to God, I'm just trying to be reasonable here. But there's an old guard and they're going to retire at some point here and that's going to be a good thing. Like you said, there's some of them have an open mind and some of them are lifting weights and have that forward way of thinking and not stuck in their old ways. But there are a lot that just they're going to need to retire and I hate saying this, but some of them are kind of these old dinosaur folks not saying younger folks are better. It's just that we are able to have gotten more of a bigger array of of understanding of how exercise works, like.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 27:11

So I tore my biceps. I was doing juju. I'm a wrestler, but I was doing jujitsu and someone put me in an arm bar and I curled them up because I didn't know what the heck it was. I didn't know what was going on. I was like what is it? My arm feels stuck. I curled them up, my my felt my biceps just pop and I was like what the hell is that? Anyway, head surgery pretty quickly. And my guy was I've read all these things where they put your arm in this like, basically like a cast type of thing, and you can only use the range of motion. Uh, they, they adjusted the range of motion every however many weeks by like a centimeter. They adjusted the range of motion every however many weeks by like a centimeter. All these different things.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 27:48

My guy was into lifting. He treated a lot of the seals, navy seals, and he was like no man. Like you know, don't be an idiot with it, but like you should be aggressive here I've seen very good things. I went to the physical therapy two times and I was already progressed way past what they'd ever seen, because and I wasn't an idiot about it. I wasn't like doing curls after my surgery but, like I was, I was moving it a lot and, you know, started to do very light back rows and things like that, things that like normally they wouldn't have allowed, and because of that it got strong very quickly. You know. It again, it takes this. People are a little too conservative. You know you don't want to be too aggressive, but I see this all the time where it's like whatever, like a hernia surgery, other types of surgery, like no, you should never lift again more than five pounds. I'm like what, what is that?

Philip Pape: 28:48

didn't even make any sense your body is five pounds, right, yeah, you gotta think, yeah, you gotta think.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 28:54

You gotta think, okay, biomechanically, I think, anatomically, I think, like, from a pathophysiology standpoint, like, why would that make sense? And honestly, if you just think of it logically, you know, yeah, sure, do we need studies to look at what happens over time? Yeah, sure we do. But like, at the same time, it's like you just have some common sense about that. Why would, why would you not be able to do x?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 29:18

You know lifting xyz, or you know if, if it's a some sort, hey, yeah, maybe you shouldn't be doing like the world's power lifting competitions anymore, although, like you know, even at that point some people are going to. You know, that's their passion, it's what gives them purpose. You know, you still want to be kind of that patient centric, but again, I think that I think it would start in in training, uh, especially for the surgeons who are I've seen that so many times and it's like, okay, let's, let's back up and think about this from a very logical standpoint. Let's use science to do it, not be idiots about it. And, yes, we should. You know run trials, but they can be expensive. But I agree with you, it's it's. We see that a lot. Nope, no more XYZ exercise. It's like huh, it doesn't make any sense.

Philip Pape: 30:09

Yeah, I mean, I personally even though this is anecdotal I've never heard of dozens of hundreds of people doing this. That made it worse. I mean, I'm sure somebody went too aggressive, but it's definitely the norm being the opposite, not doing it enough.

Philip Pape: 30:21

And then you get the scar tissue and limited mobility. And then now, a year later, you're trying to do something with this, you know tight tendon or scar tissue, whatever. It's a lot harder to do. It's funny I have a physical therapist. He's remote, he's in New York, I'm in Connecticut, he's a barbell trainer who's also a physical therapist. It's got like a combined practice, like man, if you're a patient, and they kind of can handle both sides, they can walk both sides of it really nicely for you and be aggressive.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 30:48

It's hard to find those types of folks, but yeah, when you do it's like oh God, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 30:53

Yeah, that's what we need More, more, more guys like that, more guys like you out there to do that. So let's talk about the obesity stuff, cause there's definitely a lot of mean material there, but it's also a very serious thing. So I've got some of the quotes from your recent posts, like telling someone with obesity to eat less and move more, similar to telling someone with anxiety just to calm down.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 31:11

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 31:12

Right, or calories matter, but appetite drives the bus. Let's just talk about like okay, what are the myths about obesity? People keep spreading, that doesn't help, and what are the top couple things that we need to understand to be empathetic and also to help ourselves and others with obesity. You know, move forward.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 31:27

Yeah. So whenever I talk about like, let's say, obesity is is the disease? Obesity is more than willpower and discipline People will say, no, you're taking out the personal responsibility. It's just an energy balance problem. They just need to eat fewer calories. I'm like these aren't mutually exclusive. Like energy balance problem, they just need to eat fewer calories. I'm like these aren't mutually exclusive. Like energy balance absolutely is the underlying factor here. That doesn't.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 31:53

The energy balance principles don't tell us what drives the obesity, and that's kind of some straw man type of arguments you see out. There is that like just because energy balance doesn't tell us the why things happen doesn't mean it's still not true type of thing. It's. Energy balance doesn't tell us the why things happen doesn't mean it's still not true type of thing. Energy balance is absolutely true. What goes on with obesity?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 32:14

And a lot of these patients most of these patients have tried to eat fewer calories in some sort of form of fashion whether it's counting calories, a ketogenic diet, vegan, plant-basediterranean, paleo, grapefruit diets unfortunately lots of the different fads and that type of thing and what happens is that over time, as they try to do this, their brain kind of fights back and, in a form of like appetite dysregulation, it increases. They've done this mathematically. There's a really brilliant researcher out there named Kevin Hall who has shown this mathematically and kind of looked at appetite changes and how, when people lose weight, their appetite gets ramped up, up and up and up the more and more you lose weight. Now I'd say this is more individual, because you do see some people like who've lost 100 or 200 pounds and have kept it off for, you know, a few years even sometimes, and they're doing okay.

Philip Pape: 33:13

Oh so, like you know, it's not it's not, like, guaranteed that you're going to have this strong, what I'd call biologically, uh appetite drive which hold on that spencer, because that's important for people to know that right there there are massive differences between people and so many people will put their own perspective on others in that department and I've seen it with clients too, where they have zero appetite at any level of dieting, and others that like just start a calorie deficit and it's like holy crap, what are we gonna do about this?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 33:44

yeah, yeah, individual difference. And this is where because you'll see online in fact you know a lot of the people that have the strongest like obesity bias are those who used to struggle with obesity themselves and have overcome it with lifestyle. Only They'll say, basically, since I did it, everybody can do it. And if you can't do it, it means you're not trying hard enough, you're just lack discipline. And I think you know, if we put ourselves in other people's shoes, it's hard to put ourselves in their shoes. I'm like you know, I think some of some of us listening when you're in elementary school you could probably do things better or worse than other kids in your class. And it's like none of those kids in your class were working hard at whatever they're good at. It's just they were naturally better at something, whether it's math or running or whatever. You can obviously improve with practice.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 34:40

We're not set, you know, genetically determined exactly, but there's genetic differences that in upbringing that change our trajectory. So you can imagine genetic and biological differences of why. I mean, we see it as it's, about 15 or so percent of people will lose a substantial amount of weight and keep it off over the course of a year with just lifestyle alone. And when I say that it's around 15 or so percent total body weight loss or more, you can get up to, you know, maybe 20%, but around 15%. So let's say you're 200 pounds, 10% would be 20 pounds, 15% would be 30 pounds, you get down to 170. So around 15% of people. And so when you look at lifestyle changes, about 15% of people will lose about 15% of their weight. More people lose around 5% of their weight. More people lose around five percent of their weight, which is considered clinically significant.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 35:30

But, like when we're looking at these newer drugs like semaglutide, which is the ozempic Wegovi or manjaro Zepbon, which is terzapatide, those drugs get around 15 percent average body weight loss. We're talking about semaglutide, 20 percent for teriseptide or even a little bit more. And when you look at how many people achieve those results, you're starting to get into like half or three-fourths of those people are starting to lose an average of 15 or more percent total body weight loss Whereas, like, only 15%, a very minority of people lose that amount of weight with lifestyle alone. So what's different about those people that are able to do it biologically? They probably don't have that strong, as as much of a strong driver. Maybe they found some other ways to cope with that, uh, appetite change, but I think it's important for people to know those biological yeah uh differences. I don't even know what started this conversation.

Philip Pape: 36:29

No, no, no, that's perfect because because ultimately I'm going to tie this back to kind of the behavior change and the medical industry and all that but I definitely want people to understand and also not feel totally defeated when they find that their experience is different, especially I mean, we had dr Stephan Guine. You know he talks about, yeah, the brain and you mentioned it as well. A recent study came out too about again confirming, like epigenetics and the importance of during your lifetime, even when you've dieted many times. That seems tends to exacerbate that for a variety of reasons, which is amazing to think about that. When you mentioned, like the drugs versus not the drugs, we try to have a nuanced discussion about that.

Philip Pape: 37:08

Even though people get livid about the GLP-1s and all that, there's a gradient. There's people who desperately need it because nothing else has worked and they have a lot of weight to lose for their health. There's people who maybe have been using it and then were able to sort of clean up their lifestyle because now this massive signal is not there and then they can gradually titrate off of it. And then there's maybe folks that don't need it and fine, there's a fair criticism there and the behavior change piece of it like you talk about diet soda. Let's go there. You talk about how, like you had a patient who swapped all her regular soda for diet soda, lost a bunch of fat and then her type 2 diabetes went into remission, right.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 37:47

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 37:48

Like. I think that's a great example of an accessible change that is not too far right. And then now was that patient on these drugs? No, right?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 37:58

No, no yeah.

Philip Pape: 38:00

So you know, tying that back to the system, the broken system. What do you want listeners to come out of this thinking? If they feel like they're not able to lose the fat, not able to lose the weight, their appetite's always super strong and maybe they aren't willing to go on the drugs. Whatever, what's step one?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 38:17

Yeah, you bring up some good points. What's step one? Okay, so I would say normalize, or understand that you're not a failure if you're unable to do a lifestyle. I think that's people will say they failed lifestyle and it's it's a somewhat of stigmatizing.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 38:37

I've used it in the past because we, you know, you like for you, for example, for your esophagitis, eosinophilic esophagitis let's say you, you took a certain, you did the elimination diet. Uh, what they would write in the note patient failed conservative therapy. Moving on to the steroid or whatever they're using. So with diet and exercise, when trying to lose weight, we'd say patient, uh, failed diet and exercise. And now we've, we've changed it because the patient didn't necessarily fail, they didn't, just didn't respond. So now we say we've changed it because the patient didn't necessarily fail, they didn't, just didn't respond. So now we say they didn't respond to it. So some people don't respond it. And people will say, well, they're not working hard enough, they're not whatever. Instead of shifting the blame to the patient because that's what we do, we're like they clearly not doing it why don't we shift it towards hey, hey, maybe it's. This biological drive is just too hard to overcome. And that doesn't mean take away all person. People are like you. Just want to take away personal responsibility and sell drugs. I'm like I swear. I swear I'm not. I'm just thinking of this differently here. Shift it to more of understanding this biology. So for people out there there, don't think of yourself as a failure if you're unable to do a lifestyle. You try, try your hardest, try your best. There are, you know, people do respond. Don't not think you can, don't think you cannot try, you, try, uh. And then if you aren't responding to it and you do need to lose weight for clinical reasons, you have type two diabetes, sleep apnea, those types of things, and it's like I really need to lose 20% of my weight or 15 or so percent of my weight.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 40:15

There are medicines out there Now the big thing right now is that they're not covered very readily, like 40% of commercial insurances that pay for it, that some of those places are dropping it because it's so expensive. I think we're going to see a lot different in 10 years because the drug costs are going to come lower. More competition is going to drive these drugs lower and lower in terms of cost. So, um, but I would just know that. Just hold out hope that there are therapies out there. Now you don't again. You don't have to take these medicines uh, no one's forcing you to. But that's what I would tell people. Step one, just like don't think of yourself as a failure. Do know that it is possible for some people to use lifestyle only. Do know that there are other therapies out there. If you don't respond to that, that's what I would say. If you don't respond to that.

Heather: 41:04

That's what I would say. Hello, my name is Heather and I am a client of Philip Pace. Just six days after I started this cut, my family and I were in a 7.9 magnitude earthquake here in Adana, turkey. As I tried to process the stress and trauma, my first instinct was to say, oh, you've been through something hard, this is not a good time. But instead I reached out to my coach and he got me under the bar that day and he helped me keep my macros that day.

Heather: 41:29

And not only did I realize that I was doing something fantastic for my body, but I realized that I was doing something fantastic for my mind and that it was going to help me keep the mental clarity that I was going to need to get my family through what really has been a very difficult two months. Here I am on the other side of eight weeks, got my kids through all the things that we have been through, and I weigh 12 pounds less than I did, and I got a new PR on my bench press. I have a long way to go and there are still things that I really want to accomplish, but now I know that I can and I'm really grateful. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 42:05

And when we talk about lifestyle, what? What is the? So I'll tell you my opinion on on lifestyle, just just from again, anecdotally, it seems that being more active and strength training tends to be a catalyst for a lot of people, if they can get into it for other things, even nutrition, like if I have someone say, should I do nutrition?

Philip Pape: 42:22

Like if it's, if it's a thought experiment, fix my nutrition or fix my exercise and start. I'm like, just start lifting weights because you're going to find the nutrition follows it, you're going to want to feel your body. That's just my opinion. How many folks do you think who are being, say, encouraged to take these drugs, are seriously trying or being given the information for lifting and training? You know, building muscle, building straight, that, that piece of it, cause I think that's, I think that's missing in a lot of this.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 42:54

Yeah, so the let's see. So there's two parts to this how many people are being given the information and then how many people are actually following through if they're given that information. So if I had to guess, I would say the minority of people are being given that information. Just based off of my, I don't even know how this would be studied. That you'd have to look at. You'd have to go back and look at large EMR databases and then look at the note of what they said. But even still, even if they put it in their note, did they actually tell them how to do it? Hard to study it. But okay, let's let me give my my guess. Though, if I had to guess, 10 are being told to do it, maybe 20 at the most. I I just can't imagine. I can't imagine it's more than that, because you go to it's it's.

Philip Pape: 43:43

We've already talked about the beginning we talked about it, doctors, just don't all get it.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 43:47

Yeah, so they might say, like you know, make sure you're, I don't know, make sure you're exercising. That might be the the extent of it, specifically weight training. Oh, the, it's got to be small, it's got to be small. And then, and then like, are they giving recommendations beyond, just hey, you should go weight train. I, there's just no way. There's just no way. So it's got to be the minority people. Now let's say that they're a big proponent. Let's say they come to me.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 44:12

I have a program I mean I have I call it lift rx and I I'm like pushing it hard and I, you know, of course I don't force people to do it. I can't force people to do it, but even still, that percentage of actually people when I'm it it's. If I had to guess again, this will be. I have a study that I'll be starting here soon, looking at body composition, because that's what everybody wants to see is like, okay, what's going on here? We're going to look at strength and body compositions after they start these medicines, and the reason it's going to be cool is because I will be pushing, lifting hard. So then, what we're going to do it's not a trial where we do one group gets a placebo, the other one. It's an observational thing.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 44:53

So if in my clinic I'm pushing it hard, regardless, it'll be interesting to see the percentage of people that actually do it and we'll make sure we follow them along. Again, we'll see who doesn't do it versus who does it. But everybody will get very aggressive, like counseling, to do it and we'll we'll make sure we follow them along. It's again, if we'll see who doesn't do it versus who does it, but everybody will get very aggressive, like counseling, to do it. So if I had to guess, I would say 30 to 40, 30 probably actually follow through and start doing it. But I don't know. You know we'll see. We'll see when I publish. Yeah, so like that's small, that's that's not.

Philip Pape: 45:24

Yeah, not enough people are doing it yeah, yeah, no, I bring it up cause it's, it's always on my mind. I wish more people would, and that's I know, all of our mission to do that, and specifically with the, the weight loss drugs. You know, you hear I'll call it misinformation due to a lack of understanding. Like, oh, you lose weight so quickly and you lose all this muscle mass when you look at it, it's, it's probably because your rate of loss tends to be faster on these. Yeah, thus you're hitting into that severe calorie deficit that causes muscle loss. It just like if you did it naturally at that rate, and that's why I bring it up. But anyway, yeah, yeah. So that's why I want people to know about it and know that there's a lot of nuance there. Do you have time for like three real quick?

Philip Pape: 46:02

rapid fire social media questions.

Philip Pape: 46:06

Okay, I rarely do this, but I think it'd be fun. So the first one is what's the most controversial fitness influencer?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 46:11

that's getting it right, at least one that you can think of, so a controversial influencer that's getting it right? Besides you, besides you I don't know if they're well, if they're getting it right. I don't know if they're controversial, but I, I would say I, I really like um uh, ben carpenter. He's my buddy, but he, he's, he's just on point, every single video that he does like he's just on point.

Philip Pape: 46:39

I like him okay yeah, I mean controversy could be like you're controversial in some ways.

Philip Pape: 46:43

You

Philip Pape: 46:44

know what I mean yeah, yeah, you cause.

Philip Pape: 46:46

You cause a lot of uh discussion. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Um, all right. The second one is name the one food labeled as unhealthy all the time by influencers, but it actually can be quite helpful oh yeah, I mean there's so many right the one the one that I'm seeing right now.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 47:04

It's seed oils in general.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 47:07

And I say that there's a lot of nuance there. But, like, when people say that they give a blanket, that seed oils are bad for you, it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean by that? Well, they cause inflammation. Well, no, the trials show they actually don't. So, like, what are you coming up with? So that's probably the one, and I'm not going to sit here and say they're amazing for you and they're going to help you do X, y, z, but you know, you gotta, you always gotta, compare it to something else. So, um, you know, seed oils I don't, I think it's to me, just for anybody listening I think it's the foods that come packaged with seed oils are the culprit. They're easily overeaten, hyper palatable, ultra processed, increasing excess calories, causing adiposity, excess fat deposition. That's the issue. I'd say the seed oils are. What a red herring is is the term. Yeah, it's like we're, you're focused on this, you're, you're hyper focused on one little's, it's, it's everything else that comes in. Anyway, that's what I would say.

Philip Pape: 48:10

No, that's good, I could have guessed that. I could have guessed that, um, yeah, cause one of my friends, his name is Dustin Lambert. He's a nutrition coach that loves to look at the research and, um, we, you know, or like you said, they're found in processed foods. Same thing with red meat and others, where you have to take away the confounders and the correlations going on, exactly. Um, all right, Last rapid fire. What's more dangerous? Uh, steroid using natty influencers or doctors pushing fad diets?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 48:39

That's great, uh, okay. So the doctors pushing fad diets or natty uh steroid users, and what are they promoting?

Philip Pape: 48:49

steroid using natty influencers. Yeah, this is this kind of a silly one, to be honest um, yeah, I, you know it.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 48:57

It yeah so silly. So I'm just I'm thinking of examples, because there are I don't even I don't, you know some of these people. You don't, I don't know if they're using steroids and they claim they're natty, but some of them might be giving out good information despite not being natty, whereas some of these doctors are are extremely dangerous.

Philip Pape: 49:17

Dangerous Okay.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 49:19

So I'm going to go. What was? What was better or worse? I'm going to say the doctors I'm going to say that the doctor doing the fad diets that's what I would say they're the dangerous ones.

Philip Pape: 49:27

Cool, cool, cool. All right, All right. Last question this is not a rapid fire. It's just what I ask all guests. Is there a question that you wish I'd asked and, if so, what's your answer?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 49:38

No, this has been a great discussion. I just, you know, I think if we all step back, you know, we, we want everybody to be healthier. We want people to lift weights. We want people to eat healthier. There are different ways to skin a cat on and to get there.

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 49:56

Uh, I think doctors are, overall, good and want patients to be healthy. You know, we talked about not enough doctors lift and I think that they're wrong, but I still think that they have your best interest. So, uh, I don't want people coming around. Oh, this guy is trash and doctor. I, I like doctor. Doctors are good in general. There's some bad apples, the the fad diet doctors, as mentioned, and some of them, some of these people, I, I swear they're just doing it for fame and and clout on the internet. It's really, really weird and too bad. Um, but for the most part, most doctors out there, just they want people to be good, uh, so I wouldn't fault them for not promoting lifting weights, um, but I would hope that the new crowd, the new wave, the new generation of doctors, understands it. I think so. I think we're seeing that and part of that social media.

Philip Pape: 50:51

So, yeah, there you go. Yeah, I'm seeing it too. That's good. It's a positive message, and if you're listening and you're, you know, taking control of your own health, maybe you're going to inspire doctors to do that. And I've heard stories of that, where the doctors themselves get more educated by patients who are very much into this stuff, from including chiropractors and non-doctors as well Just like, oh, what are you doing A lot more yoga? No, I'm actually lifting weights. Ah, interesting. Yeah, that's cool. Good stuff, good stuff. All right, where do you want folks to find you, dr Spencer?

Dr. Spencer Nadolsky: 51:16

I mean, uh, instagram and threads. I I hate saying X cause, like I don't know, I don't even. I call it Twitter still, but Instagram at Dr, dr Nadolsky, dr N-A-D-O-L-S-K-Y, you can. You can listen to Docs who Lift podcast. I have a podcast with my brother who's an endocrinologist, who's lifts a lot of weights as well.

Philip Pape: 51:40

Yeah, that's all right, All right man, I'll throw those in the show notes. I really appreciate you doing this. For me and the listener it was fun thanks for having me on.

My Experiment with Peptides (BPC-157) for Shoulder Recovery (Confounding Variables) | Ep 255

Follow Nutrition Science Daily, our new 5-minute weekday morning podcast delivering the latest in nutrition, fat loss, and health science... plus simple tips to help you optimize your diet, build muscle, and improve your health—all before your high-protein breakfast!

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If you've experimented with supplements or recovery protocols and struggled to determine what's actually working versus what's just wishful thinking...

Learn how the engineering concept of Confounding Variables reveals why most self-experiments fail to give clear answers – and how to design better ones.

Using my real experience with BPC-157 for shoulder recovery as a case study, discover why changing multiple factors at once creates a "messy dataset" that can mask or amplify results.

Whether you're evaluating a supplement, modifying your training, or testing any health intervention, understanding this framework will transform how you approach self-experimentation.

Main Takeaways:

• Why controlling variables matters for supplement evaluation

• How diet changes can mask or amplify recovery results

• The hidden benefit of "messy" real-world experiments

• A systematic approach to learning from imperfect data

Episodes Mentioned:

• Testosterone, Hormone Therapy, and Peptides for Health and Longevity with Dr. Rand McClain

• Peptides, Hormone Therapy, Medical Aesthetics, and Personalized Wellness with Kristin Gemme

→ Follow Nutrition Science Daily, our new 5-minute weekday morning podcast!

The Truth About My Experiment with BPC-157 Peptides

If you’ve ever tried a supplement or recovery protocol and struggled to figure out if it was actually working, you’re not alone. In this blog post, I’m breaking down my personal experiment with BPC-157, a synthetic peptide often touted for its potential to accelerate healing in muscles, tendons, and ligaments. More importantly, I’ll reveal the lessons I learned about confounding variables—those pesky factors that make it almost impossible to pinpoint what’s driving your results.

Whether you're testing a new supplement, tweaking your nutrition, or experimenting with training, understanding these variables is the key to making better decisions for your health and fitness.

What is BPC-157?

BPC-157 is a synthetic peptide derived from a naturally occurring protein in gastric juices. Research suggests it may accelerate tissue repair by promoting blood vessel formation and collagen production, while also reducing inflammation and oxidative stress.

Most of the evidence comes from animal studies, and while anecdotal reports among humans are promising, rigorous human trials are limited. This leaves plenty of room for experimentation—but also a lot of room for error.

My BPC-157 Protocol

After recovering from rotator cuff surgery in 2023, I started experiencing persistent inflammation in my left shoulder. Cortisone shots and progressive rehab helped me regain strength and mobility, but I wanted to optimize recovery further. Enter BPC-157.

Here’s the protocol I followed:

• Dosage: 500 micrograms per day (five days a week for six weeks).

• Administration: Injected subcutaneously into fatty tissue near the triceps.

• Goal: Assess improvements in shoulder pain, mobility, and strength while tracking progress systematically.

The Problem with Confounding Variables

Here’s where things got tricky. At the same time I began the BPC-157 protocol, I made other significant changes:

1. Nutrition: Transitioned from a fat loss phase to a bulking phase.

2. Training: Shifted from a bodybuilding-style program to a more strength-focused program.

These changes introduced multiple variables into the equation. Was my shoulder feeling better because of the peptides, the increased caloric intake, or the adjusted training style? Maybe all of the above?

This is what scientists call a multivariate problem. Multiple changes interacting with each other make it nearly impossible to isolate a single cause.

Lessons from My Experiment

If you’re experimenting with protocols or supplements, here are a few takeaways to help you avoid messy data:

1. Document Everything

Track as many variables as possible, even those that seem unrelated. Sleep, stress, diet, training volume, and recovery tools all interact with each other and can skew results.

2. Start with a Baseline

Before introducing any new protocol, establish a baseline for your nutrition, training, and recovery habits. The fewer changes you make simultaneously, the clearer your data will be.

3. Compare to Past Experiences

Reflect on similar situations. For example, how did recovery progress during a previous bulk or training phase without the supplement in question?

4. Acknowledge Real-World Complexity

Perfect control is impossible in a real-life setting. Instead of striving for clean data, focus on building an environment that supports your goals holistically.

Did BPC-157 Work for Me?

Here’s the truth: I’m not 100% sure.

Yes, my shoulder feels stronger, less painful, and more mobile. But I also introduced better nutrition, smarter training, and improved recovery habits at the same time. These confounding variables make it difficult to credit the peptide exclusively.

Still, the experience was valuable. It reinforced the importance of controlling variables and tracking progress carefully. Next time, I plan to test BPC-157 on my hip, where other recovery efforts have been stable over the years.

The Takeaway

Recovery and healing don’t happen in isolation. Our bodies are influenced by the totality of our environment—nutrition, training, stress, and beyond. While confounding variables complicate experiments, they also reflect the reality of human life.

Rather than chasing perfection, focus on creating an environment conducive to your goals. Measure what you can, tweak as needed, and embrace the messiness of real life.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're curious about BPC-157 or any other peptides or supplements for injury recovery and you want the truth about what I learned using it for my shoulder, but, more importantly, if you've ever tried self-experimentation and struggled to figure out whether something is actually working or not, this episode is for you. I'm breaking down my real experiment using BPC-157 peptides for my shoulder what went right, what went wrong and the crucial lesson about confounding variables that will change how you evaluate any protocol or supplement. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm talking about my personal experience with BPC-157. This is a peptide, and I did this for my left shoulder, where I had rotator cuff surgery last year, and I'm going to go through that process, but with an important twist. Instead of just telling you whether it worked or not, we're going to use this as a case study in confounding variables, those pesky factors that make it nearly impossible to determine what's actually causing our results. It nearly impossible to determine what's actually causing our results Because when I tried BPC-157, I made some classic mistakes that created a messy data set. Understanding these mistakes will help you avoid them in your own experiments, whether with supplements, training protocols or changes to your nutrition.

Philip Pape: 1:40

And I do want to say that none of what I share today constitutes any sort of advice, medical or otherwise, for you. It is simply for educational purposes. And before we get into it, I do want to mention something a little bit new that I haven't talked about much lately, and that is a brand new podcast we launched called Nutrition Science Daily. This is a daily weekday morning five-minute podcast. I'm trying to get every single episode under five minutes. Some come in at five and a half or six, and this is an examination of a recent study, finding news article or happening in the world of nutrition, how to analyze it and how to apply it to your life in a nuanced, evidence-based way. So that's called Nutrition Science Daily, links in the show notes. I highly encourage you to check it out. If you like it, follow it and share, but just give it a shot and see if you like it.

Philip Pape: 2:28

Let's talk about my experiment with peptides, and I want to first explain what the heck these are. What is BPC-157? Because I've talked about peptides a couple times on the show, once long ago with Dr Rand M, another time with Christian Gem. I may have talked about it a few other times and you can go check those out, but peptides are well. Bpc-157, specifically, is a synthetic peptide which is derived from a naturally occurring protein found in gastric juices. Research shows it can accelerate healing in muscles, tendons and ligaments by promoting blood vessel formation and collagen production. Studies, mostly in animals so that is a big caveat primarily in animals demonstrate it may have the potential to reduce inflammation and oxidative stress, particularly in tissue repair, which would then help with accelerating that tissue repair.

Philip Pape: 3:22

And the reason I decided to try these out is, first of all, I'm working with a qualified professional. Her name is Kristin Gemme here in Avon. She was on the show and she helped guide me through this process. I had rotator cuff surgery in 2023. So this was last year, as I'm recording this episode and I recovered through that pretty nicely over about six to 12 months, got back into lifting, things started to feel well and then I got some bursitis, some really strong painful inflammation that just would not go away. I worked through various protocols to get that down naturally and then I decided to have a cortisone shot to just massively reduce the inflammation. It worked wonders to allow me to slowly build back in, reintroduce load, get back to shoulder pressing all the things that I love to do in the gym in a very reasonable, appropriate way. And now I'm training pretty hard and it's feeling good.

Philip Pape: 4:13

However, throughout that process I thought is there anything else I can do to support this? And I had heard about peptides several times. I talked to a former coach of mine who said you know, I've used it. This was him talking. I've used it for my shoulder, others have used it for their knees, for their hips, used it after surgery, and there's all these anecdotal stories of people having faster recovery. And I looked into it I talked to Kristen and I talked to some other professionals. It seems to be the very not just efficacious for a lot of people, but safe as well, and so I considered taking it because it is a fairly natural product, although it is in its infancy with regards to the research.

Philip Pape: 4:52

And the protocol is very simple. You inject I think it's 500 micrograms Don't quote me, I don't have my notes here Uh, basically daily. For me, I did it five out of seven days for six weeks, so it's 30 doses. With a very tiny syringe, you put it into fatty tissue. Um, I did it five out of seven days for six weeks, so it's 30 doses. With a very tiny syringe you put it into fatty tissue, I did it into the fat near my triceps and so you hardly feel it. You probably need someone to help with that. And the recommendation was alternate my shoulders for each dose. If you were to put it in your hip or buttocks or stomach or wherever again, you could do it in the same spot every day. You can alternate. It's systemic, but it also is supposed to be local as well. And that's it. And the idea there was that I would track how I feel, how I perform, my mobility, my range of motion as I went forward. And I did but hold that thought, because now we're going to talk about the sticky situation you can get yourself in if you don't do it right.

Philip Pape: 5:48

Let's talk about controlled versus confounding variables. Now, this is a fundamental concept when you're designing any experiment, and what we do here on Wits and Weights and in my coaching practice, is we're always experimenting on ourselves. We start from a known base of knowledge. We start from best practices and our best guess. Like, we know how much protein we should be eating, but we don't know if it should be a little bit higher, a little lower for you. We know you should be training in a certain way generally, but we don't know if you need more or less volume, more or less intensity and more or fewer days per week. So we figure those out later on, but we start with a baseline and we identify these variables.

Philip Pape: 6:24

A controlled variable is something that we intentionally keep constant or we manipulate in a very specific way to understand its effects. So think about scientific studies where researchers control factors like diet, exercise and sleep and they want to isolate the impact of a supplement. So they are controlling these things. They are either manipulating them to keep them steady or they are not touching them, if you will, if they're expected to remain stable. So those are control variables.

Philip Pape: 6:54

Confounding variables are the wild cards. These are the factors that can influence our results but are not part of what we're trying to test, and they can mask or they can amplify the true effect of our intervention. And when it comes to health fitness, common confounding variables are all over the place, because we're human beings, we live messy lives, our stress levels change, our sleep quality changes, we have seasonal variations in our activity. We have life events that come along that affect everything recovery, everything else. We are constantly changing our supplements and medications, we're constantly modifying our training program and our intensity, and the list goes on and on. And the challenge of biological systems, especially our bodies, is that true control, variables, or I should say variable control is nearly impossible. We just have to acknowledge that Everything interacts with everything else. Hormones affect sleep, which affects recovery, which affects performance, which affects hormones. You get the idea. There's sometimes chicken and egg effects that go both directions.

Philip Pape: 7:58

So when I apply this specifically to my situation, the timeline was such that, as I was starting the BPC-157 protocol, I just happened to be changing a few other very big variables at the same time. Now, those were more under my control, I will admit, and this is where I made the mistake. There are lots of things that happen to us, but there are things that we control, such as our diet. Well, at the time I was starting this, I also decided to come out of my fat loss phase into maintenance and then into a bulking phase. Now, part of that was intentional, so that I could get more out of the recovery, knowing that I was taking peptides, but it still introduced an extra major change to a variable that was no longer in control, although it became controlled in a new sense, in that now I was in a consistent bulk, but it was a change. Also, I switched from a bodybuilding style program to a more strength building style program, knowing again that I would be in a recovery phase, that I would also have more food coming in, and I'm like, well, heck, yeah, now I want to improve my strength base and go after PRs again. I've been wanting to do that ever since before my surgery. So now I'm in a more volume heavy training program at the same time, and all these things are changing while I'm taking the protocol. So now the question is how the heck do I know that if my shoulder starts feeling better or has better mobility, it's because of the peptides? And how do I avoid the placebo effect here as well, where I start saying, oh, I'm feeling better, it's because of the peptides, because I want them to be.

Philip Pape: 9:31

And so when we modify several factors at once like this, we create what scientists call a multivariate problem. Right, each change introduces its own effects and potentially interacts with other changes in ways that we just cannot predict. For example, in my case, increasing calories improves recovery and provides more resources for tissue repair. I wanted that to support the peptides, but it also means I don't know if it's the peptides that's really doing the job. Modifying my training reduces stress on injured areas, even though I might be training more intensely and building strength. So it's like, eh, again, am I hitting myself harder and now the peptides are helping me feel better to counteract that, or I'm actually supporting that by reducing stress because I am getting stronger? You see what I mean. Peptides themselves, of course, might accelerate the healing processes. That's really the ultimate thing I'm trying to figure out. Better nutrition might optimize hormones that affect all of this, and then my training volume could affect my recovery time. Now, to be honest, I increased my volume, so I technically have less potential recovery, but that's a whole separate topic because of the interaction between stress and fatigue and all that.

Philip Pape: 10:45

So this is where understanding confounding variables becomes absolutely critical. So you don't make assumptions and don't make anecdotal claims, because when multiple factors change simultaneously, we have to have a more systematic approach, and we're all about systems, we're all about analysis and there are still ways that you can kind of tease out the data. So the first thing is to document everything you care about, even things that you might not think you should care about and seem unrelated but could be affected. So you want to care about those as well, all right. So documenting everything, looking for patterns in the timing between changes and improvements. So, for example, if you made a change and then something improved, look at everything that changed and were they all overlapping, in which case it's kind of hard to figure out what it is, or is there a distinct association, time-wise, between something changing and something improving?

Philip Pape: 11:39

Another thing is to compare to similar situations in the past. So, for my example, I've bulked in the past and I've done strength programs in the past and I know how my shoulder has felt. So if my shoulder actually feels a lot better this time under those same conditions, that could be a clue that, oh yes, it might be the peptides, and then consider the biological mechanisms going on and how everything might interact again. So you don't make any assumptions. So what did I actually observe? You're like, okay, get to the point. What did you feel? Well, I'm not really sure. I will say that my shoulder is feeling stronger, it hurts less and it cracks less, like there was a lot of cracking going on, but I had also had the cortisone shot. I had recovered from that. I had been training and stretching, working on mobility all of that as well. So is it the peptides? I've been able to progress my bench press and my overhead press, which is phenomenal. I really missed doing those. But at the same time, I'm using smarter approaches and tools, like I use a slingshot for my standard bench, I use spotto presses which stop an inch above my chest, I support my overhead pressing, with days where I do seated overhead pressing, all of which can be supporting and improving the strength of my shoulder, independent of the peptides. And so at the end of the day, you're going to get a disappointing answer, but I'm not really sure Now.

Philip Pape: 13:04

I've had, I've heard of people who went through recovery from surgery, took the peptides and the recovery was super fast. The question is, would it have been slower or faster without them? Like, would it have been slower without them or were they motivated Cause they're on the peptides, thinking this is going to recover faster and they push themselves more in a good way? Right? We just? It's just so hard to say because of this idea of confounding variables. So if I did this next time, and I am going to do this next time, but I'm going to do it for my hip. So I've had a torn labrum in my right hip for quite a few years.

Philip Pape: 13:35

Don't know what caused it. It causes a little bit of stiffness. Sometimes in the morning it causes some clicking and it's just a little bit annoying. I do find that if I squat regularly and if I walk regularly, the pain goes away, which is another signal to always be moving and using your body. It tends to be better for your health and your joints than not doing that. When I sit around a lot, that's when it hurts. But I'm going to use peptides there because that part of my body seems to change not a lick. No matter what I do Like, no matter what I'm eating, no matter what I'm sleeping, no matter what, it's been super, super stable, no matter what Like, all these other things can change and my hip will still be a little bit problematic.

Philip Pape: 14:15

So my reasoning, of course, is if I take the peptides and all these other things in my life are more or less as they've been and all of a sudden that starts to improve, ah, that might be an indicator that these things work. And if everything stays the same, I'll be like, okay, I tried the peptides and, honestly, for me they didn't have a big deal, like I'm getting much more out of just hitting the gym hard, working out, eating right, all those fun things A lot of what I tell my clients to do. I say, look, don't focus so much on these hacks, these supplements, these one percenters. Just focus on the big things and then, once you get there, you can focus on optimization and experimentation with the little things. So the fascinating thing about all of this, about this confounding variable thing, is, while they make clean data pretty much impossible, as a human, they actually mirror real life accurately.

Philip Pape: 15:05

Right, because in the real world, healing and recovery don't happen in isolation. Right, our bodies respond to the totality of our environment, not just single interventions. So we need to care about all of it and we need to just not make excuses and also not rely on one solution or another and just go after it. I, for one, am rather entertained by the messiness of life, and I talk often about how that messiness is what allows us to create resilience around it knowing that it's messy, like knowing that we can't be perfect and knowing that things are going to happen all the it, knowing that it's messy, like knowing that we can't be perfect and knowing that things are gonna happen all the time. It's liberating. It allows you to then set up your system, to assume that that's the case and to set up your environment rather than any single intervention.

Philip Pape: 15:51

And don't get hung up and don't overthink is this the best training program? Is this the best diet? Just think about your environment as a whole and start to nudge things in the direction you think. Work for you, Track it, measure it, see how you feel, see how you perform, and you'll get there. And if we understand this, then we understand self-experimentation. And now, instead of seeking perfect isolation, we focus on creating the environment conducive to our goals, while we still carefully document the things that change. We document our results, we track, we measure, of course, and carefully document the things that change. We document our results, we track, we measure, of course, and overall, we have a more nuanced approach. It's not going to give you clear-cut answers it never will but it's going to lead to better real-world outcomes and that's what matters.

Philip Pape: 16:27

All right, if you want to learn more about the little corners and the nooks and crannies of nutrition science, follow my new podcast, nutrition Science Daily. It's wherever you get your podcasts. Check it out. It's five minutes every weekday morning by 6 am Eastern. It's only in the weekdays right now so you can catch up on the weekends if you miss a few during the week and you might love some. You might not Check it out. Follow and submit a five-star rating and review if you enjoy it, or reach out to me on Instagram at witsandweights five-star rating and review if you enjoy it, or reach out to me on Instagram at witsandweights. And until next time, keep using those wits, keep lifting those weights and remember sometimes the best data comes from understanding why your experiment was not perfect. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

10 Intermittent Fasting Myths That Need to Die | Ep 254

Download my free Nutrition for Body Composition guide to setup your nutrition for fat loss without intermittent fasting. Discover how to master your macros, optimize your workout nutrition, and develop sustainable habits.

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Philip (@witsandweights) dives into the top 10 myths surrounding intermittent fasting (IF) that continue to dominate the fitness world. From the claims of fat-burning magic to boosting metabolism and enhancing cognitive function, Philip reveals what the science actually says.

This isn’t about bashing IF—it is about actionable advice to help you decide if fasting aligns with your goals or if there’s a better way to achieve sustainable progress. Philip also shares his personal experience with fasting and why he no longer follows rigid eating patterns.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:35 Myth #1
5:33 Myth #2
7:25 Myth #3
8:35 Myth #4
10:00 Myth #5
11:10 Myth #6
12:30 Myth #7
15:10 Myth #8
16:30 Myth #9
17:39 Myth #10
19:10 BONUS MYTH
24:20 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download my free Nutrition for Body Composition guide

10 Intermittent Fasting Myths Exposed and What Actually Drives Results

Intermittent fasting (IF) has been touted as the holy grail for fat loss, metabolic health, and longevity. But is it really the secret weapon it’s made out to be? While some people thrive on it, the hype around fasting often overshadows the facts. In this post, we’ll unpack the top 10 myths about intermittent fasting, explore the science behind these claims, and reveal what truly matters for achieving your fitness goals. Spoiler alert: It’s not about rigid eating windows.

Myth 1 – Fasting Makes You Burn More Fat

Yes, fasting shifts your body to burn more fat for fuel during your fasting window. However, fat loss over time depends on creating a calorie deficit—not when you eat. Studies show that when calories are matched, fasting offers no additional fat loss benefit compared to regular meal patterns. The key is consistency and awareness of total caloric intake.

Myth 2 – Fasting Boosts Your Metabolism

Short-term fasting might slightly increase metabolic rate due to stress hormones like adrenaline, but prolonged fasting can lower it. Your body adapts by conserving energy, a survival mechanism that kicks in when food is scarce. A sustainable calorie deficit and consistent eating patterns are better for maintaining your metabolism.

Myth 3 – Fasting Improves Insulin Sensitivity

The truth? Insulin sensitivity is more about body composition, activity levels, and overall diet quality. Building muscle, staying active, and eating enough protein are far more effective than fasting alone. The timing of meals has little to no added benefit when it comes to improving insulin function.

Myth 4 – Fasting Optimizes Hormonal Health

Fasting often disrupts hormonal balance rather than optimizing it, especially for women. Clients who’ve tried aggressive fasting sometimes experience irregular menstrual cycles or heightened stress. The real key to hormonal health? Adequate nutrition, good sleep, and stress management.

Myth 5 – Fasting Enhances Autophagy

Autophagy, your body’s cellular cleanup process, does increase during fasting—but so does exercise, sleep, and calorie restriction. Human studies don’t definitively prove fasting provides unique benefits for autophagy beyond these other practices.

Myth 6 – Fasting Is the Key to Longevity

Claims about fasting and longevity are based on animal studies or extreme calorie restriction protocols. The real drivers of longevity—reducing inflammation and improving metabolic health—can be achieved through balanced nutrition, exercise, and other sustainable lifestyle habits.

Myth 7 – You Can Eat Whatever You Want During the Feeding Window

This myth might be the most damaging. Overeating during your feeding window can erase any calorie deficit created during fasting. Total calories and food quality matter whether you’re fasting or not.

Myth 8 – Fasting Detoxes Your Body

Your liver and kidneys already do an excellent job detoxing your body. Fasting doesn’t enhance this process. For better "natural detox," focus on hydration, fiber, and a nutrient-rich diet.

Myth 9 – Fasting Improves Cognitive Function

Some people report mental clarity while fasting, but it’s often a temporary effect of stress hormones. Most people perform cognitively better with regular meals and stable blood sugar levels.

Myth 10 – Fasting Works for Everyone

This one-size-fits-all myth ignores individual differences. Fasting isn’t ideal for everyone, especially those with high physical demands, chronic stress, or a history of disordered eating. The best approach is one that fits your lifestyle and supports long-term consistency.

When Fasting Might Work for You

While fasting isn’t necessary for results, it can be a practical option for those who naturally prefer fewer meals or specific eating windows due to their schedules. However, it should never feel like an obligation or a magic bullet for fat loss.

What Actually Drives Results

1. Sustainable Calorie Deficits – Tracking and awareness, balanced meals, and a focus on protein and whole foods.

2. Meal Timing for Training Performance – Prioritize pre- and post-workout nutrition for energy and recovery.

3. Sleep and Stress Management – These are often overlooked but critical to achieving your goals.

4. Consistency – Master the basics before adding unnecessary complexity like fasting.

Final Thoughts

Fasting isn’t inherently “bad,” but it’s not the magic solution it’s often made out to be. Most of my clients achieve amazing results without ever worrying about fasting protocols. Instead, they focus on sustainable habits that align with their goals and lifestyles. If you’re unsure where to start, download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition Guide to take control of your nutrition without restrictive rules.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's talk about intermittent fasting. You've probably tried restricting your eating window because someone told you it would burn fat, boost your metabolism, clean up your cells through autophagy. But instead of getting these amazing benefits, you're maybe gaining weight during your feeding window. You're feeling tired and cranky. You're wondering if there's something wrong with you, or is there a different way I can do this? Today, we're uncovering 10 myths about intermittent fasting that keep getting repeated by influencers and even some respected experts. You'll learn why many of these claims completely misrepresent the research, and I'll show you what actually drives results, because it's not about when you eat. It's about what you do consistently Now, whether you're fasting right now or thinking about starting. You'll discover why many of these so-called benefits might be holding you back from better results and how to decide if IF actually makes sense for your lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 0:58

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are examining the truth about intermittent fasting claims that just won't go away Now. I rarely talk about IF on the show, but I have personal experience with it and it is still a hot topic. And let me be clear. This is not about bashing intermittent fasting. Some people genuinely thrive on it and they can, and I'll tell you about my own experience in a bit. But most people don't need it for results and you shouldn't feel pressured to follow arbitrary eating windows if they don't work for you. Now, before we dive in, if you want to take control of your nutrition without restrictive rules around meal timing, download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition Guide, where you'll learn how to master macros, calories, workout nutrition and develop a sustainable approach that still, of course, gets you results. Click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free to get your copy of the Body composition nutrition guide.

Philip Pape: 2:06

So, before we get into the myths, let me just quickly share my own experience with intermittent fasting, which was all the rage about 10 years ago, overlapping with CrossFit and paleo and the lean gains protocol, following this very strict, rigid approach, and the idea was a 16 to 8 fasting pattern. So I would have dinner around 5 or 6 pm and then not eat again till let's see let me do the math around 11, something like 10, 11 am. So basically, eight-hour fasting window, 16-hour eight-hour feeding window, 16-hour fasting window. So you would basically not have breakfast and then you would have a late lunch or an early dinner to make it work, and I followed this because I thought it would optimize fat burning. I didn't even worry too much about the longevity stuff, I was just trying to lose weight. I would train fasted and I did this for years and I thought, okay, I'm able to do the things I'm trying to do, so it's working right. But I still wasn't able to control my body composition or my weight. My body effectively got used to it and so I would end up eating more than I intended to in the feeding window. My performance in the gym was inconsistent because I was training fasted, even though I was also using at the time, bcaas branched-chain amino acids and later on EAAs CAAs branched chain amino acids and later on EAAs. My recovery wasn't great. I wasn't seeing better results than in another way of eating, which I only discovered later, once I stopped intermittent fasting.

Philip Pape: 3:34

And really my I guess, number one advice from this whole podcast, before we get into myths, is experimenting with if you're going to do fasting, track what you're doing and track the results and how you feel, and then do it without the fasting and see what changes. That's really the best way to tell what's going to happen. Now you may say, well, I don't really want to do that, because I think intermittent fasting is better for longevity or for burning fat or whatever. That is what we're going to address today. All right, we're going to talk about when it could be helpful, but then all the reasons it's not, so that you don't feel pressured to do it. And I think that's very liberating. It's very liberating because I still hear people who have struggled with, you know, having excess body fat, trying to lose weight, and they're like it's finally working because I started fasting. Well, we're going to get into why that is and the lens on that is you're telling the truth. Obviously, I'm not gaslighting. You are getting some change. You are losing weight, but is it because of the reasons you think? And are you putting something else at risk and preventing results from something else? So we're going to get to that. Let's just jump right in. Enough set up here Myth number one that fasting makes you burn more fat.

Philip Pape: 4:46

Now you can change the wording of this and say fasting makes you lose more weight, more fat. I'm just going to lump it all together, but the fat part, specifically is the claim that fasting puts you into a fat burning mode, making weight loss easier and more efficient. Now, yes, your body does shift to using more fat for fuel when you're not eating, but this misses the point because fat loss itself depends on being in a calorie deficit over time. If you're eating the same number of calories, studies show and physics show no difference in fat loss between intermittent fasting and regular meal patterns period. Any short-term increase in fat burning during the fasting window guess what? It gets canceled out by what happens in your feeding window. So that's myth number one it offers absolutely no benefit. I know this because my very approach with clients, which is focused on a sustainable way of losing fat efficiently and successfully, doesn't include intermittent fasting, and very few of my clients ever need it or want to do it, except for practical purposes and I'll address that a little bit later when I talk about who it might be right for. But it has zero benefit in burning more fat Zero.

Philip Pape: 6:01

Myth number two that fasting boosts your metabolism. Now, there's a kernel of truth here in that short-term fasting can temporarily increase metabolic rate through stress hormones, but long-term shows that extended fasting lowers your metabolism as your body conserves energy, and this is basic evolution. Your body doesn't know when the next meal is coming, so it adapts by becoming more efficient with its energy use. This is the same principle of unpredictability, right. The same reason. I tell people to eat consistently day to day, to sleep consistently day to day, to train consistently, do things in a consistent way, and your body then doesn't try to conserve energy because it doesn't know when this thing is coming next. It doesn't know when you're to conserve energy because it doesn't know when this thing is coming next. It doesn't know when you're getting to sleep, it doesn't know when you're getting food. Now, on the other hand, you might say well, what if I'm intermittent fasting very consistently? In that case, I think it's fine. And again, it doesn't boost your metabolism, it doesn't drop it either. My point is it just doesn't offer any benefit over any other feeding window, right. And the same thing happens when we are on a very low-calorie diet, right. In other words, your body conserves, you have metabolic adaptation, your metabolism drops, and that's why we focus on a more moderate approach to our calorie deficits and we use refeeds and diet breaks when appropriate to make it sustainable so that you can stick with it. So fasting definitely does not boost your metabolism.

Philip Pape: 7:27

We're going to move on to myth number three, which is that fasting improves insulin sensitivity Very important one here. This is now we get into the health claims. Here's the thing about insulin sensitivity it is primarily driven by body composition, activity level and overall diet quality. Body composition, as in more muscle, less fat. Right, we talk about muscle being a sink for glucose. The more muscle you have, the more you train, the more insulin sensitive you are. Your activity level just moving, controlling that blood sugar being active, and then your diet quality itself. Now, while short breaks between meals can help with insulin function in terms of you're reducing the number of spikes of blood sugar which, by the way, are not a big deal if you're active, in fact, we want them when we're lifting weights Studies that compare fasting to regular meal patterns no difference when calories and weight loss are matched in terms of insulin sensitivity. So what does improve insulin sensitivity? I alluded to it is building muscle through resistance training, staying active throughout the day, eating enough protein and maintaining a healthy body fat level. All right.

Philip Pape: 8:38

Myth number four that fasting is better for hormonal health. Oh, this one really irks me because I hear it especially in the over 40 and the peri-post-menopause crowd. Some podcasts, even podcasts that I respect, talk about fasting as being some panacea for women and for hormonal health, and the claim is that the fasting itself optimizes hormones like insulin, growth hormone and cortisol stress hormone, for better fat burning and better retention of muscle. And again, while fasting temporarily affects these hormones, the changes aren't necessarily even beneficial, because fasting can increase your stress hormones. They can disrupt your reproductive hormones, particularly in women. I've had female clients come to me after their cycles became irregular from aggressive fasting. So you really got to watch out. You're not doing more harm than good. The research shows that hormonal health is derived from consistent nutrition, adequate energy, not being underfed. A very key point we have harp on here is not always being dieting, but actually eating enough food, good sleep and stress management rather than manipulating meal timing. So again, with every one of these myths, I want you to be clear that the myth is actually a myth and there actually could be evidence showing the opposite in some cases. But again, I'm not going to go to the extreme on that side either.

Philip Pape: 10:04

Myth number five that fasting induces superior autophagy. So autophagy is the cleaning out of your cells. This claim is fascinating because it is based almost entirely on animal research and also on extreme fasting protocols that last at least 24 or more hours. So autophagy is your body's cellular cleanup process. It does increase when you're fasting, but it also happens during exercise, during sleep and during any form of calorie restriction. And we don't actually know if fasting enhances autophagy more than these other methods in humans. We just don't have evidence that supports that right. If, again, you want to support cellular health, guess what I'm going to say Focus on regular exercise, movement, training, quality sleep, good nutrition, rather than fasting. And, by the way, again, I'm not trying to bash on fasting. Fasting is just a tool. What I'm trying to show is that the claims people make about fasting being superior for these things are what are false giving you more options, which is great.

Philip Pape: 11:10

Myth number six that fasting is the key to longevity. And this one comes from studies where severe calorie restriction extended lifespan in various species. Have you heard about this? Right? You've heard about calorie restriction being somehow helpful for longevity, but the human evidence is much less clear, if existent at all, because any longevity benefits for humans likely come from improved health markers like reduced inflammation, better metabolic health things that you can achieve through lifestyle, through lots of other approaches that have nothing to do with fasting.

Philip Pape: 11:45

I've had people who come to me, actually not because they want to build muscle or lose fat, but because they're concerned with longevity. They're concerned with their high blood pressure or their high resting heart rate or their cholesterol, and they feel like they're compromising their health and they wonder should they be fasting, should they be doing so-called longevity protocols? And typically what's happening is they're either not eating enough they're not eating enough protein, fiber, nutrients, they're not moving enough, they're not training. There's all the lifestyle things they're just not doing. Yet Once we get those in place, we get to a balanced approach to their food, focused on whole foods, regular meals, very flexible approach, having nothing to do with, you know, restricting your feeding windows. Guess what happens? Health markers improve significantly. See it time and again and again it's a very liberating thought that you can do that and you don't need to fast.

Philip Pape: 12:33

Myth number seven is that you can eat whatever you want during the feeding window. Now, maybe not all of you buy into this myth and you understand that eating too much, whenever it is, can be a problem. I get it, but still I think it is a myth that's out there and it's probably the most damaging one, because it leads to overconsumption and poor food choices. Very much like a dreamer bulk right the idea that I'm going to just eat whatever I want, as much as I want to build muscle can lead to overconsumption and poor food choices, and I see it constantly.

Philip Pape: 13:07

People are fasting and initially they have some success because they lose some water weight, they cut their calories, they're not able to eat as much. Then what happens? Their body gets used to it. They start to overeat during their feeding window, and by overeat I simply mean they're consuming more calories than they intend or that they want for whatever their goal is, which usually is maintenance or fat loss, and so they're overeating. And this happened to me back in the day because I was fasting for years to the point where my body is like this is just how it is, so now you could eat more calories during that window, and then you almost feel like entitled to make up for the fasting period.

Philip Pape: 13:41

Or you feel like you're hungry, starving. Even if you get quote unquote used to fasting, you still may have higher hunger than you would have otherwise if you weren't doing it. And no matter what your fasting window is, you still have to consider total calories and food quality. It's still important. No matter what, the amount of calories in a day is still going to matter, and so I see people gaining weight on intermittent fasting. It happens all the time, right, even if they're perfectly adhering to the window, because they're cramming a day's worth of processed foods within eight hours. You know they think anything goes and their body adapts to it All right After the break. We're going to address one of the biggest intermittent fasting myths of all and I'm going to share a bonus myth related to your training performance and building muscle.

Jenny: 14:27

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement for all of our health. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 15:13

Welcome back as we reveal the final three intermittent fasting myths that need to die, plus a bonus myth that will unlock even more progress with your body composition and physique. Myth number eight that fasting detoxes your body. Now I wasn't sure if I wanted to clue this in there, but I've actually seen more and more people make this claim and it's kind of related to the autophagy a little bit. It's this whole like cleaning you out thing. Your body's detoxification systems are already quite well-evolved and capable and robust your liver, your kidneys, your lymphatic system. They work continuously. Whether you're fasting or not, they're always working for you. They're amazing. Fasting does not enhance or accelerate this process at all. If you want to support natural detox, stay hydrated, eat plenty of fiber, get adequate protein, maintain a healthy lifestyle. Obviously don't smoke, don't drink to excess, because that'll put a strain on your detoxification system right, and those basic habits are going to do far more for you than any fasting protocol. And I don't know about you. I'd rather be lifting weights and eating what I want when I want, rather than having to fast and still get the result and still get the quote-unquote detox All right.

Philip Pape: 16:31

Myth number nine fasting is better for cognitive function. So some people swear by this. Oh, I fasted and I had this mental clarity. My brain was just firing on all cylinders. I didn't feel sluggish, lethargic, dah, dah, dah dah. You hear all of this and I've done that myself. Okay, I've used to fast once a week for a whole day, so I would go dinner to dinner, right, so a 24 hour period, and I would claim that I just felt so much clearer, so much mental clarity. The research actually shows mixed results and it shows a massive level of individual variation. So if you have what seems like a temporary boost in focus, it's probably because of your stress hormones, not an inherent benefit of fasting. A lot of people actually experience brain fog and or concentration when they're fasting, especially when they're having to then do demanding tasks, not just training fasted, but work. You work If you have a day job and you're now trying to work while you're hungry. And so, anecdotally, some people might have cognitive benefit, but most folks perform better cognitively with regular meals and stable blood sugar. Again back to the basics.

Philip Pape: 17:39

And then myth number 10, and again, this is maybe the biggest one I'm not going to say the most dangerous, but it's the one that just blanket statement on the internet that fasting can work for everyone, that it's a diet right. It's like here's keto, here's vegetarianism, here's carnivore, here's fasting, and it's going to work. You pick the one you want and it's going to work for everyone. And this myth insidiously ignores the massive individual differences that we all have. The whole reason I created this podcast is the reason I coach people to figure out their own bodies, their own metabolism, their own lifestyle, their own psychology.

Philip Pape: 18:13

It is so different from person to person that if you try to put yourself in a box it can be extremely problematic, especially for women. And again, men, women love you all. But unfortunately women get the brunt of the marketing on this stuff and the claims on this stuff. And women also have the bigger hormonal disruptions in late 30s into 40s and 50s. But fasting is also unsuitable for certain people. If you have a history of disordered eating, if you have very high physical demands, if you have chronic stress, it could make it worse. It just can Be careful. I'm okay if you want to experiment, but measure these things and see if one isn't superior to the other for you, for you.

Philip Pape: 18:55

I've seen far too many clients try to force fasting, and I mean before we work together. They tell me about their stories of fasting because they think that's the only resort they have left. Even maybe it'll be surprising to you is the impact of fasting on your training performance, and I am a proponent now that most people should not be training fasted and again, I use the word most, not every, because, just like all the other claims, or the very last one, that fasting's for everyone, fasted or fed, training may not be everyone. You may be in the very, very, very small percentage of people that, for whatever reason, perform better when you're fasted. It's extremely rare, though, and usually the reason they think they're performing better, faster than not, is because when they're fed, maybe they eat too much too close to their workout and they just don't like the digestive results or the feeling of it, or they feel sluggish, or they're eating the wrong things, or they're not eating carbs but they're only eating protein. There's a lot of reasons that you might think training fed doesn't work for you and we need to talk.

Philip Pape: 20:15

I want you to reach out to me, schedule a rapid nutrition assessment. Let's have a call and talk about your peri-workout nutrition. Peri meaning in and around. What are you eating before and after? When are you eating. What is the composition of macros? What is the food? Is it highly digestible? I will help you figure out if that's the problem, before you say I just need to train fasted and I'm going to start taking EAAs, which are pretty much a waste of money, since you could just eat protein, and because all these other myths are not true about fat burning and everything else autophagy you don't have to worry about those.

Philip Pape: 20:47

It really comes down to how do you get the most out of your workouts. Coming to the gym feeling ready to go energized, you don't feel like you have too much in your stomach. You go ahead and you slam the weights with control, with intensity and with focus, and you're able to get through a 60 or 90-minute training session with your energy intact, having gotten all the reps, and then you recover, and then you're not too sore the next day, and on and on. It all ties together and much of it comes down to not training fasted. And if you go from fasted training to fed training, you might find a step change in your lifting, in the weight, in the volume, in the intensity, in the energy, in the recovery, all of it, and so it's definitely worth trying out if you haven't done it or you've been training fasted for a long time.

Philip Pape: 21:33

And stop making the excuses. But well, I only have a half hour before I get to the gym. Well, guess what? Protein shakes and a banana, my favorite. Okay, half protein shakes and a banana, my favorite. Half an hour is plenty. Or you can guzzle on some highly branched cyclic dextrin just very simple, pure, easily digestible form of carbs, and get the energy in your body and see what it's like.

Philip Pape: 21:53

Stop making the excuses. There are some legitimate things like okay, I have to take thyroid medication and I'm trying to go to my home gym 10 minutes later. But again, even then can we work things out to make it work for you. Or, worst case, have a bigger carb, heavier dinner, not too late, but late enough that it's still in your system when you work out the next day. All right, so yeah, you might burn a little more fat during a fasted workout, but then you're going to burn less fat in the rest of the day and you're probably going to perform worse. Right, that goes back to myth number one. That means less muscle stimulation. Even the lower calorie burn it compromised results. All of it goes down okay, and training fasted will probably increase your muscle breakdown, and that's not what we're trying to do, because the research is clear that having amino acids available through eating protein helps preserve muscle during fat loss. So why are we trying to slow that down? So all of this illustrates the bigger point Don't let artificial rules get in the way of what actually drives results Proper fueling, progressive overload, consistency and all the basic lifestyle habits. All right.

Philip Pape: 22:55

So the key takeaway isn't that intermittent fasting is quote unquote bad. It's that you just do not need it for results. Most of my clients don't use it and those who do typically choose it because listen up it matches their natural hunger patterns or their schedule, purely practical reasons that are individualized to them. It is not for any supposed metabolic benefits whatsoever. Now what does matter? All right. Number one creating a sustainable calorie deficit. If you're trying to lose fat, you probably need to be in a moderate, sustainable calorie deficit through tracking and awareness, eating balanced meals, prioritizing protein and whole foods. Number two timing your meals to support your training performance. So where timing matters is getting it around your workouts, not whether you have fasting and feeding windows. The next one is getting adequate sleep, managing stress and then finally being consistent with the foundational basics before you start to add any complexity like intermittent fasting, which, at some point, if you want to try it out, great, but don't use that as step one.

Philip Pape: 23:58

What is the best approach? The best approach is the one that fits your lifestyle, the one that you can maintain long-term. If that includes some form of IF, then great, and if not, that's perfectly fine too. That is really my message today. All right, so if you want to learn exactly how to set up your nutrition for results without restrictive rules like fasting, download my free Nutrition 101 for Body Composition guide. You'll discover how to master your macros, optimize your workout nutrition and develop sustainable habits. That last, click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free to get your copy today. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting some weights and remember you don't need complicated rules around meal timing to get great results. Focus on the approach you can be consistent with while enjoying your diet. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Modern TRT Is Broken (How to Fix Your Testosterone) with Ali Gilbert | Ep 253

Download my free Nutrition for Body Composition Guide to set up your calories and macros for fat loss, muscle gain, better health, improved workout nutrition, and recovery, and a sustainable approach to life (even if you have low T), or go to witsandweights.com/free

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Are you sabotaging your hormones with a cookie-cutter testosterone protocol? Could blocking estrogen be harming your health instead of helping? Is low testosterone silently holding you back from being your best self?

Philip (@witsandweights) teams up with Ali Gilbert, the "Queen of Men’s Health," to explore testosterone replacement therapy (TRT). Ali shares her expertise on optimizing men’s hormones, health, and performance, breaking down common TRT pitfalls, outdated beliefs, and the importance of personalized approaches. Together, they dive into estrogen’s vital role in male health and the transformative power of optimized testosterone.

Learn how to optimize your testosterone and take charge of your health in ways you never thought possible.

Ali Gilbert is a fitness expert and leading advocate for men’s health. Known as the "Queen of Men’s Health," she combines her exercise science and coaching background with deep hormone optimization expertise. Ali has helped thousands of men achieve better health, performance, and confidence by addressing the root causes of hormonal imbalances with an evidence-based, no-nonsense approach.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:51 The Wild West of TRT clinics and red flags to watch for
6:30 Personalized protocols Vs. One-size-fits-all approaches
14:39 How stress and under-eating sabotage testosterone
18:37 Navigating difficult conversations with men
24:03 Understanding estrogen in TRT
28:39 Breaking the myth: TRT is not a shortcut to getting “jacked"
32:11 Optimal testosterone levels and symptom resolution
36:33 How TRT enhances confidence and decision-making
41:08 Ali’s journey into men’s health and creating her unique niche
48:28 Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: https://ali-gilbert.com

• Instagram: @thealigilbert

• Facebook: @thealigilbert

• YouTube: @queenofmenshealth

Why Most TRT Protocols Fail and How to Fix Them

Are you considering testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) or already on a protocol that doesn’t feel quite right? You're not alone. Many men dive into TRT expecting life-changing results, only to be met with disappointment. The truth is that most TRT protocols are fundamentally flawed, leaving men with persistent symptoms and even worse outcomes.

This post will unpack the common mistakes in modern TRT, highlight why standard protocols fail, and explore what an optimized approach looks like. If you’re ready to finally take control of your hormones and health, keep reading.

Why Most TRT Protocols Don’t Work

Cookie-Cutter Approaches The biggest issue with many TRT clinics is their one-size-fits-all approach. Patients often receive the same protocol—200 mg of testosterone weekly, paired with an estrogen blocker like anastrozole. These clinics prioritize volume over quality care, giving every patient the same treatment regardless of individual needs.

Mismanagement of Estrogen Contrary to popular belief, estrogen isn’t the villain it’s often made out to be. In men, estrogen is cardioprotective, improves insulin sensitivity, and supports libido. Blocking it can lead to joint pain, mood issues, and even long-term health risks like osteoporosis. Yet many clinics routinely prescribe aromatase inhibitors, assuming any rise in estrogen is harmful.

Overlooking Lifestyle Factors Hormones don’t exist in a vacuum. Stress, sleep, training, and nutrition all influence your hormone levels. Clinics that only focus on lab results while ignoring the human behind the labs are setting patients up for failure.

How to Fix Your TRT Protocol

Personalization is Key A good TRT protocol considers your lifestyle, symptoms, and goals—not just your lab results. Bloodwork is crucial, but it’s only one piece of the puzzle. A competent provider will ask about your diet, training, sleep, stress levels, and medical history to build a protocol tailored to your needs.

Avoid Overmedication If your protocol includes routine estrogen blockers or unnecessary medications like HCG year-round, it’s worth reconsidering. Estrogen management should be based on symptoms, not arbitrary lab values.

Inject More Strategically For most men, splitting testosterone injections into two or three smaller doses per week provides more stable hormone levels and minimizes side effects. Forget once-a-week mega doses—they lead to peaks and crashes, making you feel worse.

Why Your Lifestyle Still Matters

Even the best TRT protocol won’t save you if your lifestyle is a mess. Many men come to TRT clinics underfed, overstressed, and overtrained. These factors not only reduce testosterone but also affect how well your body responds to treatment.

Start by:

• Eating enough calories to support your activity level.

• Strength training regularly to maximize muscle growth and bone density.

• Sleeping 7-9 hours per night to optimize recovery and hormonal balance.

• Managing stress through mindfulness, therapy, or hobbies.

Myths About TRT You Should Ignore

1. TRT Will Make You Instantly Jacked No, injecting testosterone isn’t a shortcut to six-pack abs. It’s a tool to restore your biological baseline, not a replacement for hard work in the gym and kitchen.

2. You Can Stay at Low Calories Forever Low-calorie diets may help you lose weight initially, but chronic undereating will tank your metabolism and testosterone. Most men need significantly more food than they think—especially if they’re active.

3. Estrogen Should Be Eliminated High estrogen levels on a lab report aren’t inherently bad. They’re often a sign that your body is converting testosterone effectively, which is beneficial.

Key Takeaways

• TRT is a powerful tool, but only if used correctly. Work with a knowledgeable provider who takes a holistic approach to your health.

• Optimize your lifestyle before starting TRT to maximize its benefits.

• Question protocols that rely on estrogen blockers or overly simplified dosing schedules.

• Remember, hormones are just one part of the equation. Your training, nutrition, and recovery still matter.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're considering testosterone replacement therapy or already on it, you might be shocked to learn that most protocols are doing more harm than good. What if I told you that typical TRT treatments and protocols are leaving men worse off than before they started? Well, today we're going to expose that truth. With testosterone replacement, with Allie Gilbert, the queen of men's health, who's helped thousands of men optimize their hormones the right way, you'll discover why standard protocols often fail, what your doctor isn't telling you about dosing and timing, and how to actually fix your hormones. Whether you're on TRT or not, if you want to cut through the BS and finally understand what's going on with your testosterone, you are definitely going to enjoy this one. Going to enjoy this one.

Philip Pape: 0:51

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exposing the truth but also simplifying TRT and hormone optimization with Allie Gilbert, the queen of men's health. Allie brings an unfiltered approach to a complex topic that we, as men, don't always talk about. She's helped thousands of busy professionals fix their hormones, transform their health, and today you're going to learn why most protocols fail, what actually works for optimizing testosterone and what to do in terms of treatment and lifestyle. Allie's going to show us what a personalized approach looks like and why typical advice, even by well-meaning people, could be holding you back. Allie, thank you so much for coming on and welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.

Ali Gilbert: 1:35

This is fun. This is good because I'm fresh off my Silverback Summit men's health event, so everything we talked about is ridiculously fresh.

Philip Pape: 1:46

Ridiculously fresh. Hot pink, extreme sour patch kid fresh right. Yes, oh, I don't like sour.

Ali Gilbert: 1:52

I haven't done.

Philip Pape: 1:54

You bring those, I bring the Diet Coke and we'll just alienate a whole bunch of folks that don't get it. I love it.

Ali Gilbert: 1:58

Oh, then we'll go viral.

Philip Pape: 2:00

No worries, we will, we will. It's funny. Dr Spencer Nadalski is coming on soon Same idea. I think he posted a meme that was Whitney Houston singing nothing, and it was like here's what happens if you cut out red dyes for your health Nothing, you know what I mean. Anyway, yeah, no, I'm sure that was awesome. What I love about your work is you tell it straight, but you also have taken kind of the best of what medical experts and scientists and everything have on men's health in general and you distill it down. So I think, to set the stage, I want to look at what's wrong with what's out there first and kind of what crazy stuff you've seen, and then we can segue that into what actually works both in terms of treatment and lifestyle. Right Like training and things like that works both in terms of treatment and lifestyle. Right Like training and things like that. So like what's the craziest, most inappropriate, like TRT protocol or approach that you've seen.

Ali Gilbert: 2:56

Oh, most of them have to do with clinics down here in Florida, because in Florida it's kind of like the wild west where anybody can own a clinic. So there's one like next to the gas station, like there's so many of them, and basically you could walk in and just be like I'm going to write my name on a piece of paper and then they'll be like cool, what do you want? Windstraw, anavar, deca? Oh, you want testosterone too? Cool, we'll give it all to you. And then usually my joke is guys are going to be like where are these clinics? Can I go, you know?

Philip Pape: 3:24

so yeah right, exactly they're like. It's where you sign up for being the governor and also get your driver's license and then your TRT.

Ali Gilbert: 3:30

Yes, exactly, and a big problem with a lot of them is they give out the same protocol for everybody because they're all playing the volume game, kind of like you know a commercial gym that has a very low ticket for entry. They just need numbers. So a lot of these clinics price their services very low and then give everyone kind of the same protocol, which is 200 milligrams of testosterone every week with anastrozole, which is an estrogen blocker, and then either HCG or gonadalrelin, which they claim helps fertility. Hcg does, gonadalrelin does nothing. Hcg also like we can get into this later, but that's something that doesn't need to be taken year round. But many clinics will sell guys on that because they sell HCG and the worst protocols that I've come across.

Ali Gilbert: 4:25

I had a guy who was I think he was 53, and he was on enclomethine and anastrozole, which is probably like the worst thing that you can do to anybody, no matter their age. But it was a little ludicrous. He was on that for over a year and I was like how do you feel? And he's like like shit. So I'm like you know that's to be expected. So I usually have to educate them as to why that is not the best approach for them why they may see their labs looking pretty but they may not feel so great, and what the next best steps are.

Ali Gilbert: 5:02

Because we work with a telehealth clinic called Merrick Health and Merrick is very competent and they do a great job. So if someone's not happy with their provider or they're on a protocol that I know is not going to help them or make them feel better, then I will let them know. Hey, you can come with us All our clients go through this process and then you'll be with somebody who actually knows what they're doing. So there's a lot of crazy protocols there, guys just taking stuff that they don't need or that they were sold on that they don't even know what it does, they don't know how to pronounce it. They just take it because a lot of guys don't question this stuff, because it is not necessarily the most comfortable conversation, especially if you don't know much about it. You're not going to be like, well, I don't need that when someone who has MD after their name is telling you that you need it.

Philip Pape: 5:57

Yeah, who I'm sure is coming across as supremely confident, bordering on arrogant, which is the vibe I get a lot of times from these guys. Yes, okay, so you mentioned blood work and you also mentioned how you feel, and it is kind of interesting that someone will go on a protocol for anything and this applies to men and women and then it's not actually addressing the whole. You know you did this in the first place, right, it's not just to get a number on your labs to change, but it must start there, along with understanding symptoms. So like what is the screening process that a good clinic or provider would start with to actually personalize it?

Ali Gilbert: 6:30

Blood work obviously is necessary, but instead of just reading the numbers and going off the arbitrary ranges that many labs have come up with, it's about asking about person, like who is the human behind these lab results? What's your lifestyle like? You know? What is your diet like? How are you sleeping? Do you have any family history? How do you feel? What are your goals? How do you train?

Ali Gilbert: 6:54

All of that goes into what your labs are, because your labs are just a snapshot in time, so it's not that these don't change ever. It's literally what is reflective of what you're doing now. So if you are dehydrated, you may see certain things elevated. If you're eating high fat, for you know, a night or a few weeks or whatever, that will be reflected in the lab. So it's important to know that if someone trained the day before, or if they're extremely dehydrated, why some markers might reflect that, and not to lose their mind and say, oh, you need to go do X, y, z or you have this because this is high.

Ali Gilbert: 7:34

It's not necessarily how that works, because a lot of it can be attached to things the person did the night before, a few weeks before, a few months before. So it's important to understand everything about them so you can have the full assessment of okay, this is not someone who sits on the couch all day drinking beer. This is an active individual who eats very well, does not drink alcohol, has other stuff going on in life, maybe they're stressed. All that stuff. You can't just read the labs and be like, okay, this is all red, so we have to fix this with this pharmaceutical. Have a nice day.

Philip Pape: 8:08

The doctor approach. So then you mentioned the person sitting on the couch drinking beer versus the active person. Who do you tend to deal with most? And also would you say, hey, it's not TRT, you need, like, let's work on the lifestyle period, like I can tell that's the issue before we even go there.

Ali Gilbert: 8:24

We tend to work with guys who are active, who are, you know, business owners, high performers, and usually they stress and under eat themselves into poor health. So that's kind of our demographic. But we have worked with guys who have body fat to lose because, as you know, many men will say I'm 15 percent body fat and they're really like 20 or 25. So that's where photos come in very useful as well. So we tend to deal with guys who are like you know, I tried everything to get leaner, I tried everything to grow muscle and nothing works for me and I'm a special snowflake or I don't know what to do. And I'm also very grateful that they realize this, because a lot of people are very prideful in knowing what to do in the gym. Maybe they've been lifting for years, maybe they've been active for years. But there does come a point where, if you're after a certain goal, hiring someone that knows how to get you there not only quicker but more like efficient, so that you don't have to think of stuff and that you don't pivot and try to negotiate with yourself every time you don't feel good or the scale doesn't say what you want, or whatever. You have that objective view, and so I always tell clients I'm like I've been coaching for about 24 years, I've had a coach for seven and a half years and they're like why? And I'm like I don't wanna deal with myself, like I'd love going into the gym knowing this is my program, and then you know, whatever I'm eating or if I have a photo shoot or something I wanna get ready for, I don't have to worry about the timeline on that, whether I'm doing the right things with progress or whatever. He worries about all that. So those are the guys that we tend to deal with and a lot of them maybe are not sure if they have low testosterone or don't think they do, because their only symptoms are non-sexual symptoms, because many guys think, well, if my dick still works, that means I have high T. Not always the case. They forget about the brain fog and the lack of energy and maybe inability to sleep and kind of fat storage patterns that they never noticed before.

Ali Gilbert: 10:30

So if someone's like a hot mess on labs and their testosterone is low, then we may say you know, we have to rectify all this before we look at testosterone. But quite often it's like a chicken or the egg scenario where they really need it and if they're under coaching with us, we know we're going to handle all the lifestyle stuff, because that's something they're going to have to address anyway whether they go on testosterone or not. So I'm very pro testosterone because I could read labs and know exactly how things will be able to improve with testosterone. But it's not something guys are obligated to do and I just educate them because a lot of them have questions or concerns or they've heard any of the stigmas associated with it and it's really just a very open conversation and we have a lot of guys that are like you know what?

Ali Gilbert: 11:19

I'm not ready. Let me do everything I can to get healthy first, which I think is awesome, then we can revisit it. And so when they do that and then they get healthy, they feel good and maybe then we bring in testosterone, it can be game changing for them, because then everything becomes amplified because they're already healthy. If someone's not healthy, it's still going to take a lot of work to get them healthy. But they may not have the best experience on testosterone because their expectations are a little bit different than what they thought it would be going on.

Philip Pape: 11:54

Okay. So what if someone is because I hear this a lot like they're doing all the things they're training, eating well, maybe they are getting sleep, maybe they are managing stress and they don't have any quote-unquote symptoms, at least what they think are the symptoms and then their lab work is kind of average. Let's say, you know, like total testosterone might be in the 500s or something and they're in their 40s. Is there a situation where you could tell just from labs, despite everything else, that still there might be a potential for improving it from that point?

Ali Gilbert: 12:26

Yes, and that will depend on their luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone numbers. So LH and FSH, those are what kind of signal the testicles to produce testosterone. So if those are high, then typically the balls are done Like something's got to, you know, be looked at here, and it means that they're screaming for the body to produce it, but the body's not producing it. And we'll see that in guys. I used to say older, but we'll see that in older guys 40 plus, it used to be like 50 or 60 plus but if somebody's like super stressed and this is a stress-based low testosterone, those numbers will be quite low.

Ali Gilbert: 13:11

And so then it's taking inventory of all the stressors in their life and then seeing all right, what is the best approach for this person? Does it make sense to bring testosterone in right now, because it can help combat a lot of the stressors? What are their future goals in life? You know a lot of guys are like I don't want to be on it the rest of my life and they want to hold off as long as possible, which they absolutely should do. It is a lifelong commitment. A lot of men struggle with that, so it's really understanding what their ultimate goal is, and does this make sense now? Because it will make sense at some point.

Philip Pape: 13:48

It's just when. Yeah, I think it's important to understand. You did allude to the fact that some of this is happening at younger ages and I've heard you talk about, even from the time we're born, how men are more I don't know, not the word infantilized, but more feminized and shorter, like taint, distance and stuff like that You've talked about. It's just fascinating, stuff like that you've talked about. It's just fascinating. But one thing I want to pull on one thread is you talked about stress and under eating and you know how the marketing is in the fitness industry.

Philip Pape: 14:11

There's so much marketed at women and like perimenopausal women and under eating for women, and you don't hear this talked about as much for men, just like you with personal clients. It's like, oh wow, you see how much is going on in men's life. That is just the same. I mean, we're all human beings dealing with these things. Like what are the biggest challenges? You see, when it comes to stress and under eating, that the guys listening can be like, oh yeah, I identify with that and now I can kind of grasp it and do something about it.

Ali Gilbert: 14:38

Well, the first thing is okay. So you're not eating enough and obviously they're terrified to eat more. Is what you're doing now working? So we have no choice. Now we can get you lean, but if you're eating 1700 calories, how low are you willing to go? It's going to suck.

Ali Gilbert: 14:57

You know I diet on like 1500 and we have guys who eat 1500 and I'm five, three, 120 pounds. So most men are not my height or stature. So it's getting them to realize that eating more is going to help them. They may not gain a pound. I mean, we had a guy who was eating. On his off days he was at 1400. On his training days he was at like 16 or 1700. And it took until over 3000 before he actually put on weight. So that goes to show you there's a lot in the tank that was not being used and he likely was breaking down muscle. So they don't realize that yes, it worked originally to get you lean, but now we're like so low and you feel like shit. You can't train hard, you're getting injured.

Ali Gilbert: 15:49

A lot of things are screaming at you saying yo give me calories. So adding food can help. The workouts can help them train harder, because people think the only way to create a calorie deficit is by lowering calories, and then they increase activity. But you can also keep activity high and bring calories up and still maintain a deficit. They just don't think of that part. So if you increase your activity, you got to bring calories with you. And no one does that because they think, oh well, eat less, train more, that's going to work. And so therefore I'll look the way you want Not necessarily and they'll stay at low calories amount way too long.

Ali Gilbert: 16:29

Like I always use Chris Bumstead as an example, for many reasons, he went to 1500 calories when he was dieting for the Olympia. That's the Olympia, hard dieting, someone of his height and weight, really low calories. So that I use that as an example when guys complain that dieting is hard and they're hungry and blah, blah, blah. But on the other side, he only stayed there for a short time. He didn't stay there for seven months. So that doesn't mean it's going to work better the longer that you do it, because the longer you do it, the more symptoms you're going to experience. So you have to get someone metabolically healthy and the only way to raise metabolism is not through some herbal supplement or whatever. It's to actually add food. It's talking them off the ledge on how eating more is okay. If the scale does go up, it's not body fat, because you're not going to increase body fat within a couple days. Like you have glycogen, you've got water weight, you've got actual food, like you know. So it's a lot.

Philip Pape: 17:33

I've seen this too. I totally get it because the fear of gaining weight and you're right, it didn't take you three months to put on the extra weight that you're worried about. Right, it took like many years. So it's not going to. When you gain intentionally and are training to build muscle and feel your body, you're not just going to blow up.

Philip Pape: 17:50

And as far as the calories go, like I hear you, I diet on around 2000 calories. I get to eat over three when I'm gaining. Right, If I had to eat 1600 ever I would just like want to shoot myself. That's crazy. But everybody's different and there's different body sizes too. I do know someone who had bariatric surgery and he's kind of stuck in that 1600 range and he's short too. So people are different. So conversations I know this is your bag is like normalizing the conversations around all of this stuff and being vulnerable and with men and all that. Where do we even crack into that? I guess what's the biggest fear, the thing that men don't talk about, that they can be encouraged to just right here, right now, as they're listening, like start talking about it more, and that way you can get the support you need on that thing that could be holding you back.

Ali Gilbert: 18:36

I would say their relationship with their spouse, their family and their friends. Because you know, especially if it's a guy who's used to hanging out with people that like to drink or party, or maybe they're married to somebody who has like zero interest in fitness, they're not going to understand why this person wants to change. So everyone sees like if someone drinks and all of a sudden they're not drinking, they lose their mind. But like if this person showed up to the bar face planning like Buffalo Wild Wings, I don't think anyone would bat an eye Like it's the most bizarre thing. So I always ask about those relationships, because not only will men use I have to talk to my wife as a smoke screen, they're also afraid that the wife may not understand. Why are you investing in a program? Because maybe they failed many times before trying certain things and now they're going to spend money doing another thing.

Philip Pape: 19:38

Here's another one. Yeah, exactly.

Ali Gilbert: 19:41

Or that they're going to have to make changes or even go on testosterone, which maybe their spouse doesn't understand or thinks it's steroids or whatever. So there's a lot that goes into these decisions. So you have to understand where this person's coming from, because if they're surrounded by people who are just toxic to what their goals are, they have to have some hard conversations and they're not going to like that, but it's the truth. Like you know, we have ways that we can help navigate that Like this is what you say to like that and then explaining to those close to them why these changes are important for their health, for them to show up as the proper husband, father, employee, business owner, whoever it is that they know they can be and that they want to be, because maybe they've lost themselves in work or a marriage or something, and those are things that people just don't usually bring up.

Philip Pape: 20:50

Yeah, I mean from firsthand experience.

Philip Pape: 20:53

For years I know I wouldn't ever share anything like that with even my own spouse and even friends.

Philip Pape: 20:59

And for me, interestingly, ali it was a close friend who had dealt with anxiety and depression and things that I couldn't relate to all of a sudden started opening up to me as another guy and kind of encouraged me to do the same and I realized how valuable that was. And there are so many men that just from a very young age, the way they're raised and even seeing their fathers as examples and my father was very, very quiet, right so I didn't even know to express love until I got into relationships in my 20s. So I think that's really important and it's tough to talk about. It even makes me slightly uncomfortable. Now, right, it's just a thing, it's like an inherent thing. So when it comes to a spouse, for example, because a lot of our listeners are probably in their 40s, 50s, and so, just very simply, what is one thing someone can do? If today, after listening to this, they want to go open up to their spouse, like, how can they start that?

Ali Gilbert: 21:48

Like any difficult fun conversation. You don't do it when someone like first gets home from work or they're stressed, or if kids are running around. You know, set time aside and just be like I have something that I think is very important for us as a family that I would love to talk to you about. When can we do that? And then you know if it's entering a coaching program or going on TRT. You have to like explain the benefits of that, because it won't be news to anybody that the person's been feeling this way. Maybe their mood has sucked libido's down, productivity, like showing up as a father, all that stuff. So it's going to be like the elephant in the room.

Ali Gilbert: 22:31

But harnessing that and then addressing it and acknowledging it kind of helps that conversation flow and say like this is something I truly help or I truly think that can help me. This is going to allow me to kind of push off any scary things like diseases, stuff like that. This is why it's important for my health and kind of take the conversation from there Because, finances aside, like it's either paying for it now or paying for medical bills and other stuff that can come with ignoring your health, which a lot of guys will. They don't want to confront lab work, they don't want to know, they don't want to address it, they just internalize it. So once they see on paper like this needs to change, then that brings a whole other conversation with it that we can't ignore this. This is something that we have to address together and I'm not asking your permission for this. I'm asking for your support in doing this.

Philip Pape: 23:36

Yeah, and I imagine that can be a huge relief for some people to just get it off your chest. Whatever happens, it's wonderful to be able to say that. Okay, so let's go back into some nuts and bolts, ali, and talk about the TRT stuff again a little bit. And you mentioned estrogen management, estrogen blockers, things like that. What about that? Should guys be aware of that? I guess a lot of these providers maybe get wrong and you have to be aware of red flags, things like that. You know, as you're building this protocol.

Ali Gilbert: 24:03

Blocking estrogen became a thing from the bodybuilding world and we did like I always bring this up on our TRT panel at Silverback because it's such a hot topic. So men need estrogen, just like women need testosterone, and one of the biggest benefits of testosterone replacement in men is the conversion of testosterone to estrogen, because estrogen is cardioprotective, it is neuroprotective, it helps your libido, it helps your insulin sensitivity. A lot of good things come from that. When you block or suppress it to satisfy a lab marker, you're doing a huge detriment to a man's health, and I always use the analogy of women in menopause. They go through menopause and they lose estrogen. What happens? Belly fat, osteoporosis, insulin resistance, cardiovascular issues. So it's the same as when guys block and suppress it, and a lot of clinics don't understand this and they think, well, estrogen's bad, it's going to cause gyno, it's going to cause water retention, strokes, all this shit. It's not true and the doctors that I associate with have done tons of work researching this and the real science of how estrogen acts in men. And when you see estrogen high on a lab panel in a man who's on TRT, that's a good thing. So it also depends when he did his injection, like if he did his injection Monday and then gets labs drawn on Tuesday, everything's going to be high and then it slowly tapers until his next shot. Or if men are on once a week, yeah, you're going to see it really high at first and then it's going to slowly drop off. So there's a lot that goes into reading those labs.

Ali Gilbert: 25:54

But the lab marker of estrogen is not actually reflective of how much estrogen a man has, because it does not work as an endocrine hormone. It works as a paracrine hormone, so it's really just kind of like a fraction of what is in a man's body or in the tissue and all of that. So it's something that a lot of our providers just ignore. None of our clients are on estrogen blockers and they feel amazing. It's when guys are on estrogen blockers and they're like my joints hurt, my libido's not where I thought it should be, and so then these clinics are like, oh, maybe you need more testosterone, and then with more testosterone comes more conversion. So then, oh, we need more anastrozole. I'm like, oh, my God, not how it works. So that's a huge hot topic in the TRT space, because people think like, oh, I feel my nipples are sensitive, I need an astrozole and it's like no, that's a normal fluctuation of hormones you're experiencing. That goes away.

Philip Pape: 26:54

And just to be clear, this is measured through estradiol on the labs. Yeah, just so folks know, because I definitely have heard that story. Now, sometimes it's because their T goes like over a thousand and maybe they're on too high of a dose or something. But, like you said, it's not the downstream effect is not what we're worried about, it's the baseline protocol. We're worried about not trying to block the estrogen. What about aromatase inhibitors, ais? Right, like, where does that come into this discussion?

Ali Gilbert: 27:19

It's the same thing. So anastrozole, letrozole, aromacin yeah, those are all the estrogen blockers, because they all get prescribed and even, like what you mentioned, with T going over a thousand, like there are some physicians that are like, oh, we can't let it go that high and I'm like why is it bad? Because anything over a thousand is bad. I'm like why Then they have nothing to back it up. Some guys feel amazing in the two thousands, some guys feel awesome when they're like 1400. Like, yeah, it's okay, you know they freak out.

Philip Pape: 27:51

So what does a good protocol look like for most guys? I mean kind of the steps that you take them through.

Ali Gilbert: 27:56

They're on injections. It's two to three days a week, every other day pretty much it's, you know, monday, wednesday, friday. It's two to three days a week, every other day. Pretty much it's Monday, wednesday, friday. That's going to be a great protocol to start with and start there and do nothing else.

Philip Pape: 28:10

Okay, that's good, we like simple, because I know you have your testosterone school right. You still have that taking people through all of this and trying to simplify it. What from all of that? I mean, you've already addressed a lot of the, I guess, myths, we'll call them, but is there something else that people don't understand that.

Ali Gilbert: 28:27

You'd like them to understand that we don't talk about enough. Oh gosh, when do I start?

Philip Pape: 28:30

Open-ended question.

Ali Gilbert: 28:31

You know I'll go off what the comments that I got on Instagram because I get trolled incessantly. That's great, that's great.

Ali Gilbert: 28:36

By people who don't understand it. So there's many reels where I'm talking about this stuff or I'm saying, like you know, you can inject all the steroids and testosterone you want and sit on the couch and you're not going to turn into, like you know, a model or bodybuilder or whatever. And of course, people come at me with this one study that took 600 milligrams injected, which is not TRT dose of testosterone, and people showed to grow muscle without doing anything. Well, people don't know how to read studies. They don't know how studies work. So just because someone grows muscle, that does not mean they look like they've grown muscle. That does not cut body fat down and instantaneous. Oh my gosh, it's like it gets me so heated because it's so stupid. So then people are like well, I have friends that are on everything and they look amazing and they don't really train. I'm sure they don't look amazing and I'm sure you're lying.

Philip Pape: 29:27

I've never met a person like that in my life, yeah.

Ali Gilbert: 29:30

Oh my God, the guys that are like, yeah, trt is going to make me jacked. It's not like the purpose of TRT is to bring you to where you biologically should be. That is it. So when men think, oh, I'm going to look, you know, like whoever they want to look like and get a six pack, I'm like you do realize that even bodybuilders who are on grams of testosterone, they still go to the gym Like they still got to work and they still got to diet and they still got to, you know, do all the other stuff. It doesn't just mean you put a needle in your butt and then you look amazing.

Ali Gilbert: 30:03

So that is one thing that I'm not sure the internet will ever understand, because I did a reel on Jeff Bezos where I was like talking about how, like the new CEO, flex is having a six pack and taking care of yourself and having your health and all of that, and I showed his before and after, from when he was like a dweeb at Amazon to what he looks like now and immediately. A lot of these comments are like he's on TRT, he's on trend, he's on steroids, he's on growth hormone, he has time and money, and I'm like these are all excuses from weak minded individuals, insecure people, yeah yeah, like of all business owners, entrepreneurs I know, myself included I'm not like, oh, I've got like nine hours nothing to do. I think I'll just work out all day. It doesn't work like that, and if you're again on TRT or even growth hormone or whatever, does not mean you're going to look certain way. So that's one of the biggest misconceptions.

Ali Gilbert: 30:59

The other one that I wish people understand is that it can be very health promoting for men, like it can improve quality of life, improve their ability to resist cancers or other diseases and cardiovascular issues Like now. We've seen studies that show low testosterone put somebody at an increased risk of heart attack, stroke and all-cause mortality, increased risk of prostate cancer, increased risk of basically all types of things that people don't want to confront in their life. And a lot of people don't understand that because they've heard bad things. So then they just regurgitate whatever they've heard on the internet and that's not true.

Philip Pape: 31:44

So no, no, it's good, Like the fact that you take tea to get biologically normal, where you need to be, which makes sense. And given that humans live far longer than we did, you know long ago, we're getting to the point, men and women, where hormones drop and you're going to need that eventually, like you said. And the health promoting part I want to ask about that Is there, and this is very difficult with studies is there a causal link or is it correlational, because those who have higher testosterone have maybe better health promoting lifestyles? What's your thought on that?

Ali Gilbert: 32:10

It's causational. So the doctors that I associate with and I always say that because I'm not a medical professional, so this is not me like my opinion hey, these. So this is not me like my opinion hey, these guys have done the research and they know how to differentiate, because a lot of the prostate cancer studies are correlation not causation, so it's filtering out the ones that make no sense with the ones that actually do. And there's a lot of evolved literature showing this, but a lot of physicians don't read it because either hormones are not their specialty, they don't have time, whatever the case. But there is a lot of new literature out there showing the benefit of having optimal testosterone levels as a man, and what is optimal Generally.

Philip Pape: 32:54

I know it depends, but when someone hits symptom resolution.

Ali Gilbert: 32:58

But I would say, if they're 600 plus and that range has been lowered twice in the last few decades on men because they show up with lower and lower teeth. So most guys are told if they're three or 400, oh, you're fine, you're good, you're normal.

Philip Pape: 33:16

Right, then the average used to be, I don't know, eight or 900. And then it's come down to like 400 or something.

Ali Gilbert: 33:22

I don't know it used to start at 350 and go to 1100. And now it starts at like the lowest I've seen is like 186 or 189, which is like abysmal. Like you don't want people walking around with test levels that low, you know, and being told that they're okay. But this is mostly when they go to either a primary GP or somebody who just does not understand hormones and is tied to what insurance companies regulations have to be.

Philip Pape: 33:50

Yep, I totally get it All right. So you mentioned training, and this is probably a myth that we're going to debase. You hear people say okay, now I'm on TRT, what do I do differently with my training? Right, my answer would be nothing like train optimally for yourself, no matter what. I'm sure that's what you're going to say, right, like people want to know, no matter who you are, you need to train guys.

Ali Gilbert: 34:10

Yeah, it happens like all the time, like in Facebook groups and you know, on my Q and A and Instagram. It's like you know, best diet for TRT, best training for TRT? I'm like there is none and you guys make me think like I should make one up because that would sell really well, it would sell. Unfortunately, I have integrity and I refuse to do that.

Philip Pape: 34:31

Oh my God, or you can just be silly about it. When they opened the document, it said just like any other training program or something Right.

Ali Gilbert: 34:38

They'll be like fuck, I paid $5 for this.

Philip Pape: 34:40

Yeah, I know a coach that had something like that. It was like the best foods for this, that. And then you open the document and it said like whatever works for you. It was just funny, Okay. So how often should people be checking their blood work At what age? Should they set a baseline as young as they can in their 20s and then go from there? What are your thoughts on that?

Ali Gilbert: 34:58

Yeah, I think everyone should get it done, you know, starting in their 20s, and most of our clients get blood work twice a year, maybe more often. If they do go on testosterone, the provider will usually ask for labs at three months, but everyone's different. But, honestly, twice a year is a good cadence in which to get labs done.

Allan: 35:20

That's what I do personally cadence in which to get labs done. That's what I do personally. Hi, my name is Alan and I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well-being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching, support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, philip Pape is the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 36:14

Just like training, nutrition, everything else lifestyle-related guys need to be aware of that changes. Not that you have to do differently, but like it opens up avenues you had maybe closed off because of your symptoms and now you know what I'm saying. Like it kind of opens up new doors in your life when you're on TRT.

Ali Gilbert: 36:33

Yeah, a lot of guys. They start to notice their confidence increases and they're quicker to make decisions, whereas before they might've been more passive or slower in executing stuff. So a lot of them are like, oh my gosh, I like was able to say yes or no or, you know, decide something quite quickly. And it becomes this like the aura changes on Zoom to like they look more confident, they act like it, they can sleep better too. Like they look more confident, they act like it, they can sleep better.

Ali Gilbert: 37:05

And when you sleep better, it solves a lot of problems where you can train harder, you can eat more, you can do a lot of things that maybe you couldn't do before. So it kind of just gives them their life back in a sense, where now they're actually able to be a man. And that can be like associated with negative things, and I don't think it is at all, because somebody who had trouble making decisions or standing up for themselves or taking the lead, who can now do that, is a really good thing, especially if they own a business or they're in a high stress job. The last thing you want to do when you're in a high pressure, high stress environment is to waver on decisions that need to be made quickly. So those are things that guys will comment on.

Philip Pape: 37:48

Yeah, I think that's awesome and I agree there's no. You know, if you were going to use the word toxic, which I can't stand anymore when it comes to this stuff. I used to be a super shy introvert and I didn't go on T to get past it myself, I went to public speaking courses and now I do a podcast and stuff like that, but it helps you help more people, it helps you speak up, like you said, it helps you make an impact, the fact that you can be more confident and, as a man, I think that is something a lot of men are missing. And when you hear surveys of how the world has been changing and we're not going to get into politics or anything but a lot of men feel like they don't have that sense of being a man and being a provider and being a protector. And you could do it in a way that's still completely in line with the other values that we value in society.

Philip Pape: 38:32

Anyway, that's just my little side thing, because I totally agree that men need that. Can you tell, talking to somebody, that they need help? Do you have that voodoo empathy? Oh yeah, it's easy. It's easy, okay. Okay, tell me more about that.

Ali Gilbert: 38:48

You know there's a lot of men that they're just very unsure of a lot of things. And this is different than being skeptical of the need for TRT, because absolutely somebody should question something that's a lifelong commitment. But it's more of like. You know, they can't just like go, they have to like, they hold themselves back, they go back and forth. You know they're very passive. Where it's like, there's people I can bulldoze and go at them because they don't have the confidence to be able to like stand up. It's hard to articulate and I don't do that purposely because you know, oh, this guy's weak minded, I'm going to fucking lay the hammer like. That's now how I am.

Ali Gilbert: 39:31

It's more you have to approach some guys more of like a softer, coddling approach, where some guys you can be harder and more direct, because a lot of men who have low testosterone have high anxiety and sometimes that high anxiety stays when they go on, testosterone goes away or it can be amplified.

Ali Gilbert: 39:51

So just because someone has anxiety doesn't mean they have low T, but quite often there are guys who have very low T, high anxiety, and they question everything. So instead of questioning everything, which a lot of women do like, a lot of women are like but what if this happens and if this and then that and then that? And I'm like stop, like guys will do the same thing. So I have to spend a little extra time helping them understand their decisions, talking them through the best pathway for them, stuff like that. And then physically, like you can see certain character traits that they have like more of a feminine look and I don't know, like soft skin, like because like when a guy does go into saucer like he's, his jawline changes his whole, like demeanor, even over zoom, like it's like damn, you got confidence, now All right, and just their ability to communicate becomes a lot better. It's hard to say, but I can usually just I think that's cool.

Philip Pape: 40:50

I mean it came to mind because I mean, you're kind of unique in the space, right, allie? You know this. You're unique being a woman doing this and the way you speak about it. I mean, I'm not sure if there's got to be a few others out there, but this is more of your story and I'm sure you get this question all the time. But, like, what drew you to helping men specifically?

Ali Gilbert: 41:08

I always joke it's because I have daddy issues and really want to save the men, but people don't get it. So then I'm like that doesn't make sense. But I did have a compromised relationship with my father growing up, which does contribute to needing some sort of validating in with men. How can I help them? And it really turned into I want them to end up not like him, I want them to live their best life. But the real story was basically when I graduated with the exercise science degree, I was like I want to train athletes, like we all do, and then you realize they're all broke and that's not going to really do well.

Ali Gilbert: 41:50

And you know, I grew up in Greenwich, connecticut, where it's not cheapest place to live. So I worked at a commercial gym and I was training people. I got a lot of guys who played golf and I was like, well, I don't know anything about golf, I played soccer in college. Golf is a sport and these guys are actually willing to work hard, focus type A and they could afford to train. So I was like I'm going to go all in on golf fitness, which I did, and I was the golf fitness person for years, like the go-to golf fitness person, golf digest, top 50, like all that stuff. But it brought me all men as a clientele and a lot of the conversations would go into nutrition and energy and hormones and all that and I was like no one's talking about this with these guys. So I kind of just ran with it because I enjoyed working with the guys better, simply because I related easier, because I was an athlete and you know very much like very chill, like I don't fit in in my hometown. I was not about like designer clothing and all that stuff. I just was like get to work, let's do it. So that's kind of how I landed in men's health and then just went to medical conferences, built relationships with doctors, shadowed them, learned everything I could, and then I ended up speaking at medical conferences and then kept working on those relationships to get blood work for clients, because I knew that that was kind of the missing piece of what I could do legally.

Ali Gilbert: 43:23

And now here we are where I realized there's no events that cover this stuff. So I created my own event and I have my own network of physicians and working with Merrick has been a game changer for a value add in our business and so now everyone's on the same page, because there's always this huge divide between medical and fitness and it would create conflict because a lot of men would piecemeal their health together, like they would get nutrition info from here. They would do this training program and then talk to this doctor. But this doctor is completely the opposite of what they read or what they talk to their coach about. So on paper I'm like just some fitness professional who's going to listen to me. You know, if you go back to tell your doctor, like you know, my trainer says that you know, aromatase inhibitors are bad and I should be on more than one injection a week, he's going to be like who's this chick, you know?

Ali Gilbert: 44:18

So now it's a lot different where the doctors call me and they seek me out because they see the ability to collaborate makes everybody better and everyone wins, because it's not a competition. It's more like hey, this is your lane. I can't legally prescribe medications. I can handle all the lifestyle stuff that many doctors will try to give advice on, but it either falls on deaf ears or it's not customized enough to where somebody can follow it. Let's come together so that we can produce the best experience for somebody, so that they get what they need. But then everyone talks. So I'll sit in on sessions with our clients, with their provider, so that, hey, we got this under control and he's eating this way. So that might reflect in the labs, but it's not going to be for a while. But oh, I know that he's dealing with some blood sugar issues. We've got him doing this, like all of that, so that cool, their job's easier, our job's easier and everyone wins.

Philip Pape: 45:18

That's a great way to do it, because a lot of people they have to be the center of all of that right. The client or the patient has to kind of pull and go and push and, like you mentioned multiple times, gps tend to be a little bit clueless on this. Most of them are not all. I've met a few good ones who actually want to listen and they also maybe lift weights, which is rare, but sometimes you see that. And the other thing I noticed is just even talking to you here and this is why I wanted you on is there is something about a man talking to another professional, and this is my opinion. It's just there's certain walls that are there and I feel like maybe when they talk to you, they're like all right, this is a totally different experience. You're a woman I could just open up for whatever reason. It feels like you're more you know.

Ali Gilbert: 46:00

I don't know if you get that yeah, I get that a lot, because I used to get like do guys even open up to you as a woman? Like isn't that embarrassing? And then I think, because I normalize this, I talk about it so much, something about me makes people just like tell me their whole life story, so I don't know too much right, too much of their life story, like if maybe that's astrological or you know, I'm a good listener, I don't know.

Ali Gilbert: 46:25

But at least I'm able to disarm that wall and then really get the truth. Because there is like sometimes guys will tell me something but not tell one of my coaches something, and then I'm like okay, this is not like HIPAA, but I have to go back to the client and be like, hey, you know.

Philip Pape: 46:43

Is it okay if I share this with them?

Ali Gilbert: 46:45

Yeah, so it does allow them to open up. Plus, I think it's a little bit of a pride thing, Like if a guy is sitting in front of another jacked dude he's not going to be like I can't get it up, and you know, yeah, good point.

Philip Pape: 46:57

It's competitive, like in our nature to be competitive and, like you know, you're like the primates, you know, fighting in the Savannah, kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Um, it's interesting, yeah, because they're like I'm obviously a man and I have. Most of my clients are actually like women, two thirds of them and I remember early on in my coaching days being kind of insecure not confident necessarily that we even want to open up, but I find it can work both ways and it can work men to men, women to women, Like it just depends on the individual right. It's not that one is better than the other, but I think you do a great job in your space with this. So, having said all that, I know there's so much about testosterone we could have gotten into. Folks should check out all of your content. Is there something you wish I would have asked, given where this conversation went and what would be your answer?

Ali Gilbert: 47:41

I mean, I don't know, I'm a very twisted individual so the direction of conversations can go multiple ways. So I don't know, that's a very odd question for me to answer because, like, I think we did cover a lot. So, yeah, I can't answer that. I'm sorry. I wish I had a more entertaining response, but I don't. No, that's a tough one.

Philip Pape: 48:00

It holds people up and I know, if I get asked that I probably am like deer in headlights myself. It's all good. It's all good, all right, cool. So where do you want?

Ali Gilbert: 48:12

people to find you, Because this is this been a great conversation on people to reach out. Everything I do is on Instagram. So on Instagram at the Allie Gilbert, a live slide in the DMS and you know just my entire page is all videos on coaching, TRT, all that stuff.

Philip Pape: 48:27

So for sure, check out at the Allie Gilbert super responsive. She was responsive and coming on to this show and I hope everybody learned a lot from this conversation. It was awesome chatting with you today, Allie, Thank you for having me.