Why Women Over 50 NEED To Lift Heavy Weights in Menopause | Ep 252

Surprise... it's our first dramatized mythbusting story! Thanks listeners for voting on this special format for today's episode.

If you're a woman over 50 who's been told to stick to light weights, bodyweight, or resistance bands, you're being robbed of massive strength potential as you age.

Learn how the story of Marlene, a retired accountant turned powerhouse, reveals three dangerous myths about menopause and strength training that are literally making women weaker. Like thousands of women, she discovered that heavy lifting isn't just safe after menopause... it's essential.

Whether you're already lifting or just thinking about starting, understanding these myths will transform how you approach fitness forever.

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Main Takeaways:

• Why light weights and high reps aren't enough for post-menopausal women

• How proper strength training can reverse THIS condition in women over 50

• Surprising evidence showing how fast women over 50 can gain strength compared to younger women

• Why avoiding heavy weights is more dangerous than lifting them

Related Episodes:

• Why Women Get Bigger, Leaner, and Sexier But Not "Bulky" From Lifting Heavy Weights

• The New Over 50 Roadmap to Lifelong Strength, Health, Muscle, and Longevity

• Your Very First Cut (Lose 10-30 Pounds of Fat)

Menopause and Heavy Lifting: Shattering 3 Dangerous Myths About Women's Strength After 50

As a coach who works with women in their 40s, 50s, and beyond, I keep hearing the same well-meaning but misguided advice: "Be careful with weights at your age." This advice isn't just wrong – it's actively harmful. Let's break down why, using both science and real-world experience.

The Costly Price of "Playing it Safe"

When women enter menopause, they're often steered toward lighter weights and "safer" exercises. But here's the reality: this approach can actually accelerate muscle loss, decrease bone density, and make you weaker when you need strength the most.

After age 30, women lose about 3-8% of their muscle mass per decade. This accelerates after menopause to as much as 10% per decade. But here's what most people miss: this isn't inevitable. It's largely the result of not training with sufficient intensity.

3 Dangerous Myths About Menopause and Strength Training

Myth #1: "Heavy Weights Are Dangerous After Menopause"

This myth stems from viewing women's bodies as somehow fragile or delicate, especially after menopause. The science shows the opposite:

• Post-menopausal women can safely handle the same relative training intensities as younger women

• A 2021 study of women lifting at 75-85% of their one-rep max showed zero injuries and significant strength gains

• Heavy resistance training can actually reverse bone loss

Myth #2: "Light Weights and High Reps Are Safer and More Effective"

This is the "pink dumbbells" myth. Here's why it fails:

• After menopause, women need MORE stimulus, not less, to maintain muscle

• Light weights don't provide enough mechanical tension for meaningful adaptation

• Protein synthesis efficiency decreases, requiring stronger training stimuli

Myth #3: "Getting Weaker Is Just Part of Aging"

This might be the most dangerous myth of all. The research is crystal clear:

• Muscle loss rate is dramatically influenced by how you train

• Women can gain strength at rates comparable to younger adults when training properly

• Proper strength training can improve bone density at any age

The Solution: A Better Approach to Strength After 50

Focus on Compound Movements

• Squats

• Deadlifts

• Bench and overhead presses

• Rows

Train with Purpose

1. Use weights that challenge you in the 4-15 rep range

2. Train 3-5 times per week with rest days between sessions

3. Progressive overload is crucial

4. Focus on form first, then gradually increase intensity

5. Maintain adequate protein intake (about 1g per pound of target body weight)

The Surprising Truth About Strength Gains

Here's something remarkable: post-menopausal women can gain strength at rates comparable to younger women when training properly. This isn't opinion – it's documented in multiple studies showing women in their 50s and 60s achieving similar relative strength gains to women in their 20s and 30s.

Taking Action

Your body isn't fragile. It's not weak. It's not past its prime. It's waiting for the right stimulus to show you just how strong you can be. The biggest risk isn't from lifting heavy weights – it's from not lifting them at all.

Ready to get started? Download my free Menopause Fat Loss Over 40 Guide.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

I want you to pay close attention to this story. You're going to hear advice that sounds reasonable, professional, even caring, but hidden within it are three dangerous myths about menopause and lifting weights, Myths that are literally stealing women's strength, health and independence. These myths are so common, so accepted, that most people, even fitness professionals, never question them. Today we're not just going to question them, we are going to shatter them with science. As you listen to Marlene's journey, see if you can spot these myths, Because once you recognize them, you'll never look at menopause and strength training the same way again. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today's story, the first of its kind we are doing a dramatized, myth-busting story, was inspired by a text message from a listener in Edmonton, Alberta, up in Canada, but it could be the story of millions of women facing the same challenge. Listen carefully, because the myths you'll hear aren't just wrong. They're actively harmful, and spotting them could change everything about how you approach strength training after 50. And as I go through the story, I really want you to pay attention to the myths and try to spot them yourself. And then I'm going to do a breakdown at the end of the story.

Philip Pape: 1:32

It's January 1st, New Year's, 6 am. Marlene stands in front of Elevation Fitness, gripping her coffee like a lifeline. At 54, the retired accountant has spent her entire career analyzing numbers, finding patterns, solving problems. But the figures she's seen lately don't add up Declining bone density, creeping weight gain, loss of strength. Even her posture, once perfect from years of track and field in her youth, is starting to slouch. Time to solve this equation, she mutters, is starting to slouch. Time to solve this equation, she mutters, pushing open the door. 25 years of working with spreadsheets taught her one thing when the numbers go wrong, you have to take action. The gym's window displays the usual New Year's promises Transform your body, Get fit, Feel strong. But there's also a sign that catches her analytical eye Silver fitness specialist, safe training for seniors. Inside, everything gleams with newness.

Philip Pape: 2:29

The front desk staff are impossibly cheerful for this hour and Mike, the trainer doing her consultation, seems to know exactly what she needs. I used to run track, Marlene tells him, watching younger members grunt under heavy barbells in the distance. High school record in the 400 meters. Now I can barely climb stairs without getting winded. I need to get strong again. Mike's smile is reassuring.

Philip Pape: 2:52

Professional, Of course, but at our age we have to be smart about this, especially with menopause. We see it all the time. Women come in wanting to lift heavy, but that's just asking for injury. He leads her to a rack of colorful resistance bands and tiny dumbbells. This is where we'll start Nice and safe, Low impact. The key is high reps with very light weights. Heavy lifting is for the young folks. We'll focus on what works for women your age. Marlene nods, running the numbers in her head. The logic seems sound. After all, he's the expert.

Philip Pape: 3:22

Three months pass. Marlene tracks everything in her training journal Weights, reps, measurements just like she used to track business expenses. The numbers don't lie. After 12 weeks of resistance bands and two-pound dumbbells, her strength hasn't improved, Her bone density numbers are still declining and her posture even worse. One morning, everything changes.

Philip Pape: 3:43

Marlene arrives early, planning to review her progress charts before her usual session. The gym is quiet, except for the rhythmic sound of heavy weight hitting the floor. Her accountant's curiosity gets the better of her. What's making that sound? Peering around the corner to the weight room, she sees a woman she'd noticed before but never spoken to Silver hair and a neat French braid, probably early 60s, setting up for another deadlift. The bar is loaded with what looks like serious weight. Each rep is controlled powerful. Between sets she catches Marlene watching and smiles. Let me guess they gave you the seniors program speech? No-transcript.

Philip Pape: 4:21

Her name is Stephanie, former physical therapist turned strength coach at 62. She left her PT practice after growing frustrated with seeing too many women limited by overcautious advice. 20 years in physical therapy taught me one thing, Stephanie says, chalking her hands for another set we're far more capable than most people think, especially after menopause. Marlene glances at her resistance bands, then back at Stephanie. The accountant in her needs more data. But what about injury risk Safety? Stephanie's laugh is warm but determined. You're an accountant, right? Let's talk numbers. When I started lifting heavy at 55, my doctor said I was crazy. Seven years later, my bone density is higher than it was at 45. My functional strength test put me in the top percentile for women in their 30s. She adds more plates to the bar. Want to know what's really risky? Getting weaker every year because someone told you you're too fragile to build strength that's what's dangerous.

Philip Pape: 5:18

Later that morning Marlene cancels her session with Mike. She has research to do. Numbers don't lie, and Stephanie's numbers tell a compelling story. All right, so that's my attempt at a little bit of a dramatic story, and what I wanna do now is break down the three myths that we just heard in Marlene's story, because each one sounds reasonable on the surface. Each one gets repeated all the time In the industry. I hear it all the time and I get questions about it all the time, and each one is completely wrong. So myth number one let me know if you got this Heavy weights are dangerous for postmenopausal women.

Philip Pape: 5:53

Now you could even change this to heavy weights are dangerous, period as the myth. But this is the myth that the trainer Mike used to steer Marlene away from the weight room, and it's based on an outdated view of women's bodies as somehow fragile or delicate, especially after menopause or really in general folks as they get older. And here's what the science actually shows Postmenopausal women, of course they don't just tolerate heavy resistance training, they actually thrive on it, just like all humans thrive on loading up our skeletal muscular system. And studies show that women in their 50s, 60s and beyond can safely handle the same relative training intensities as younger women. And I'm going to put some numbers to this. There's a 2021 study that followed postmenopausal women doing heavy compound lifts at 75 to 85% of their one rep max. So we're talking pretty heavy weights and the results zero injuries, significant gains in strength and improved bone density. Now Stephanie, the woman that Marlene met in the weight room, is the perfect example of what is completely possible. She's not an outlier. She's just doing what the human body is designed to do at any age, and that is to adapt to adapt to progressive overload.

Philip Pape: 7:05

So myth number one that heavy weights are dangerous, busted. Myth number two, that light weights and high reps are safer and more effective Now, this was the recommendation by the trainer. The tiny pink dumbbells, the endless reps, maybe using machines, maybe doing body weight exercises, and not that. None of those things are effective for a short period, but it's for a very short period before you outgrow them and need more load, Because the problem is it's not enough stimulus to create meaningful change over time, which is really what you need as you're getting older. Now remember how Marlene followed this advice for three months. She didn't have any results.

Philip Pape: 7:42

And, granted, if you've been completely sedentary your whole life and then you do something, you're probably going to feel a little fitter, a little more active, maybe even a little stronger, but it's going to plateau very quickly. And that's really the point I'm trying to make. And there's a reason for that because, you know, as we age and after menopause, especially for women, women need more stimulus, not less, to maintain and build muscle. And that's for a few reasons. First is the estrogen level that drops and it actually makes it harder to maintain muscle mass, just naturally, if you don't do anything about it. The second is that protein synthesis efficiency goes down right, which is also why I recommend women eat more protein the older they get. And then, number three, your metabolic rate is naturally declining and just to be clear on that, it's only declining primarily because of your loss of muscle mass and your worsening body composition. That's it, Not because of menopause, hormones or anything else Now I mean, other than the estrogen levels drop, which make it harder to maintain muscle mass. But if you, that doesn't mean you can't. As long as you focus on your body composition, these things don't have to happen. And lighter weights you know the circuit machines in the gym where you're just hitting the same weight on the stack week after week forever. That's not going to provide you the stimulus to overcome these changes. It's like trying to fill a bucket with a dropper right when what you need is a hose, just to put an analogy on it.

Philip Pape: 9:01

And then the third myth in the story is that getting weaker is just part of aging and menopause, and I really I hate this one. I have to be honest, and you know, men say the same thing. Right, it's probably the most dangerous myth of all the idea that it's inevitable you're going to lose strength and muscle. It is not aging that makes us weak, it is the lack of using our bodies and using our strength that makes us weak, and the research is crystal clear on this. The rate of muscle loss during and after menopause is dramatically influenced by whether and how you train. That's it, Strength training. Women who actually engage in strength training can maintain and gain new muscle mass. They can increase their bone density. They have improved metabolic health. They have improved functional strength right, and I mean functional in a more colloquial sense, not giving it any sort of special meaning just to be able to do things in the world.

Philip Pape: 9:57

Now you remember how Stephanie mentioned that her bone scan, you know, shocking her doctor afterward after it went up, and that's because heavy resistance training actually can reverse bone loss. And I've heard many stories like this, where you go to the doctor and like, oh my goodness, what are you doing? I'd never seen this before. The bone density is actually going up. That is how few people are actually lifting weights. I mean, it's very sad, but it's also very empowering for you when you know that that's the thing that's going to work. So what should Marlene and you do instead? Here's the action plan Number one focus on compound movements in the gym when you train, you know, two or three days a week, ideally three, maybe even four, using squats, deadlifts, pressing rows.

Philip Pape: 10:37

Okay, and you can reach out to me. I've got all sorts of programs that I can recommend. I'm not going to charge you for it. I'm going to give you a free resource. If you need it, Reach out for a. That can be in a wide rep range, all right, Anywhere from three or four reps all the way to 15 to 20 reps. It's really gonna depend on the lift and on the programming and whether you're actually pushing hard, where you're a few reps shy of failure, and what I find is that going up for 20 or 25 reps and keeping the weight really light doesn't usually do that, because people tend to just stop before they get to that point. So that's another reason I like a heavier rep range, especially for women, especially post-menopause.

Philip Pape: 11:19

Number three progressive overload is the critical piece here. We have to increase your work over time. Your work, meaning your sets, reps, load over time. All right, Primarily the weight. That's the most basic variable to change for most people, but then eventually it gets a little more nuanced than that. Number four is again, training enough with enough frequency. So I'm going to say three times a week If you're, let's say, in your seventies or eighties and you're listening to this, and if you never trained before, I would start with one or two and then add to that and you have recovery in between your sessions. And then, number five, you've got to support your training with plenty of protein and calories, and so protein is going to be somewhere around 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of your target body weight. But then having enough calories is important as well, and that's a whole separate topic.

Philip Pape: 12:06

When it comes to nutrition, here's something else that the research has revealed which I think is really amazing, and it validates what Stephanie discovered in the story. Post-menopausal women can gain strength and muscle at the same rate as younger women when training properly. And I'll add the shock value. I'll make the shock value even higher at the same rate as men. So don't think that you have any disadvantage. Now, yes, women start with less muscle mass. They have more body fat when they're younger, so the actual quantity of muscle might be different, but who cares? The rate that you can gain is the same, right, and this isn't just an opinion or conjecture. This is documented again in many studies that show women in their 50s and 60s achieving similar relative strength gains to women in their 20s and 30s when following proper resistance training programs. I mean, think about that for a moment. Right, the very time when most women are being told to back off from training or to just act. Your age or this is inevitable is actually when they can make incredible progress, not despite their age, but regardless of it. Right, Like it doesn't factor in.

Philip Pape: 13:14

So let's end by returning to Marlene's story. Remember how it began standing outside that gym on New Year's Eve I mean on New Year's day, right, New Year's resolution clutching her coffee and her spreadsheets, trying to solve the equation of aging. And this is actually the exact story of so many clients who I work with who eventually find their way to the weight room, hopefully sooner than later, with who eventually find their way to the weight room, hopefully sooner than later, and from day one. If you reach out to me for a rapid fitness assessment or need help with coaching, we are not going to avoid the weight room. We are going to get you on a proper training program if you're not doing it already, or we're going to make adjustments to what you're doing to make sure it's effective.

Philip Pape: 13:50

That is number one for me when it comes to having a good nutrition plan. You're like what Nutrition? That is number one for me. When it comes to having a good nutrition plan, You're like what Nutrition? Yes, Number one for me in having a good nutrition plan is that you're training, training properly, right, that you're deadlifting, that you're squatting, that you're doing all these wonderful things. Now, if you're not interested in that, that's your choice. But the truth is your body is not fragile, it's not weak, it's not past its prime. It's waiting for the right stimulus to show just how strong you can be.

Philip Pape: 14:18

So today's episode resonated with you and you want to talk to other people, like Marlene in the story, who are looking to get stronger regardless of their age. Get strong at any age. They want to know what to do. They want to inspire each other. Join our Facebook group. It's totally free. Go to Facebook and just search Wits and Weights or click the link in the show notes. That is also where I often test out some of these ideas, like today's dramatized, myth-busting story. Again, just click the link in the show notes or go to Facebook and search Wits and Weights and join our group and you'll hear about episodes like this. But you can also interact with others and we do a bi-weekly live Q&A where you could have your questions answered. All sorts of other fun stuff. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember strength has nothing to do with age. It's about smart training and consistency. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Counting Calories for Weight Loss vs. Tracking What Matters for Fat Loss | Ep 251

Join Wits & Weights Physique University and get courses, coaching, community, and live masterclasses to build a sustainable system for your ideal physique (fat loss, muscle building, and metabolism)! Just $67 bi-weekly. Cancel anytime.

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Have you been stuck in a loop of counting calories, tracking points, or relying on prepackaged diet plans, only to feel dissatisfied with your results? What if the numbers you’re obsessing over are holding you back? Could focusing on different metrics unlock the physique you’ve always wanted?

Philip (@witsandweights) discusses the misconceptions around weight loss and fat loss. He explains why focusing purely on calories or the scale often leads to frustration and why body composition—not weight—is the real goal. Philip breaks down the flawed logic behind popular diet plans and offers a sustainable, intelligent approach to tracking progress that prioritizes muscle, strength, and longevity.

Learn how to break free from rigid tracking systems and build a sustainable approach that transforms not just your body but your entire mindset.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:11 Why weight loss programs miss the mark
3:03 The truth about numbers-based programs
6:24 Understanding what actually changes your body
10:15 The better way to track progress
16:33 Building your new tracking system
20:20 Developing intuitive habits for long-term success
22:24 Wits and Weights Physique University: A system for real progress
23:47 Outro

Related Episodes:

• Fat Loss vs. Weight Loss

• Why Weight Loss Always Fails (But Don't Ditch the Scale Yet)

Why the Scale Lies About Fat Loss and How to Track What Really Matters

If you’ve ever hit a milestone on the scale only to feel disappointed when you look in the mirror, you’re not alone. Weight loss and fat loss are not the same thing, yet most diet programs fixate on the scale, missing the bigger picture of true body composition changes.

This is where most tracking systems, whether it’s calories, points, or prepackaged meal plans, fall short. They oversimplify the process, treating your body like a math equation—calories in, calories out—without considering the complex adaptations that drive real fat loss.

In this article, we’ll break down why focusing solely on numbers can sabotage your progress and how to shift your attention to what truly drives a leaner, stronger physique.

Why Weight Loss ≠ Fat Loss

At its core, weight loss simply means losing mass. That mass could come from fat, but it could also come from muscle, water, or even bone density. Most popular programs and tracking apps don’t differentiate between these sources, leading many people to lose muscle and end up “skinny fat”—lighter on the scale but still unhappy with their appearance.

This approach also slows down your metabolism, as muscle is a metabolically active tissue. The result? A vicious cycle of losing and regaining weight without achieving the physique or health improvements you’re after.

What Actually Drives Fat Loss

To achieve a leaner body and maintain your results, you need to focus on preserving or building muscle while reducing fat. This requires a comprehensive approach that goes beyond calorie counting:

1. Performance in the Gym

Tracking your strength and performance in the gym is the most reliable way to ensure you’re preserving muscle during fat loss. Progress in the gym—whether it’s lifting heavier weights, improving form, or increasing endurance—signals that your body is holding onto or building muscle.

Key Metrics to Track:

• Strength progression (weight lifted)

• Volume (total work performed)

• Energy levels and recovery

2. Body Composition Changes

Instead of obsessing over the scale, track other indicators of fat loss that provide a clearer picture of your progress.

Key Metrics to Track:

• Waist, hip, and arm measurements

• Progress photos

• Clothing fit

3. Biofeedback

Your body provides valuable signals about whether your approach is sustainable. These include:

• Energy levels throughout the day

• Hunger and appetite

• Sleep quality

• Recovery from workouts

• Digestion

Tracking biofeedback allows you to adjust your strategy to ensure it’s both effective and sustainable.

A Smarter Approach to Tracking

Rigid tracking methods, like exact calorie or macro targets, often create unnecessary stress and reduce adherence. Instead, adopt flexible ranges and minimums that allow for real-life variability while staying aligned with your goals.

Prioritize Protein

Anchor your nutrition around protein, with a target of 0.7 to 1.0 grams per pound of body weight. This range supports muscle maintenance and growth, even during a calorie deficit.

Flexible Fat and Carb Ranges

Allow fats and carbs to fluctuate based on your energy needs, training demands, and preferences. This creates a sustainable approach that’s adaptable to social events, hunger cues, and performance goals.

Build a Feedback Loop

A truly effective tracking system incorporates multiple data points:

1. Gym performance logs

2. Trend weight (not daily fluctuations)

3. Measurements and photos

4. Biofeedback trends

By evaluating these together, you can identify what’s working and adjust as needed without relying on arbitrary, one-dimensional metrics.

Real Progress Is More Than Numbers

The goal of tracking isn’t to restrict—it’s to empower. When you focus on the metrics that matter, you gain a deeper understanding of your body’s responses. Over time, this builds intuition and confidence, allowing you to sustain your results without feeling confined by rigid rules.

If this resonates with you, consider joining Wits and Weights Physique University, where we help you create sustainable systems to transform your body composition without the mental burden of chasing perfect numbers.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

🏋️‍♀️ Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs

🩷 Love the podcast? Leave a 5-star review or share on social and tag @witsandweights

📞 Send a Q&A voicemail

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever followed Weight Watchers, counted points, used prepackaged meal programs like Optivia, or obsessed over hitting exact calorie targets in MyFitnessPal, yet you're still not happy with how your body looks and feels. This episode is going to change everything. The problem isn't your dedication to tracking. It's that you're tracking the wrong things. Today, we're exposing why fixating on precise numbers whether they're calories points or macros is actually holding you back from the lean, strong physique you want. You'll discover why all these programs miss the bigger picture of true fat loss and learn exactly what to measure instead for lasting results. So, whether you're currently counting every calorie or just tired of jumping from one tracking system to another, get ready to break free from the numbers game and finally start seeing real changes in your body. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are tackling a fundamental problem that affects nearly everyone trying to improve their body composition the difference between weight loss and actual fat loss, and why most tracking methods completely miss the mark and I see this all the time. People who've spent months or years religiously following different programs, tracking everything, weighing portions to the gram, celebrating when they hit their targets, and I think they're losing the bigger picture. They're losing weight, yes, according to the scale, but they're not getting lean, they're not getting the defined physique that they're after, and instead they're ending up with what we often call skinny fat right, smaller on the scale, but still unhappy with how they look and feel. And today we're going to break down exactly why this happens and what to do instead. And you know I am a numbers guy. So, even though I am sounding like I'm saying not to be precise and not to track, you're going to understand the subtle differences that I'm getting into today and why this tool can be helpful. Before we dive into that, I do want to tell you about something that could transform your approach to fat loss and give you some support, because I'm going to be talking about some of the cookie cutter programs today that focus on hitting arbitrary numbers but ignore what actually matters, and it is rife in the fitness industry, in the weight loss industry, and that's why I'm so strongly opinionated about it. But I do have something that can work for you, and it's called Wits and Weights Physique University. It's my semi-private group coaching program where we cut through all of that. We do use tracking, but we focus on tracking what truly drives fat loss results, and it's just a tiny piece of it. More importantly is the proven methodology, the expert guidance and support through a community and also from me as a coach, to help you achieve the physique you want the leanness, the look, the feel, the energy, all of those things, and not just pursuing a weight on the scale. So if you want to learn about joining us, just go to witsandweightscom, slash physique, and you can see all the details there.

Philip Pape: 2:57

But with that I just want to get back to today's episode and talk about the numbers game, the weight loss versus fat loss, all of it, and I want to understand why focusing purely on numbers okay, it could be calories, it could be points like Weight Watchers, it could be pre-portioned meals, it could be anything often leads to frustration, because sometimes people come to me and they haven't tracked anything. That's a different situation. I'm talking about the situation where you have tracked lots of things. Maybe you're very data-driven, maybe you're very numbers-driven, maybe you've been through different programs and somehow it's still not working, or you feel like it doesn't work for you and you feel like, huh, I must be broken or something's wrong with me.

Philip Pape: 3:37

And the common theme throughout these programs is that they promise simplicity. Right, hit these targets and you'll lose weight. That's the premise of most of them. Let's be honest, and technically they're not wrong. If you eat fewer calories than you burn, you will lose weight. But what they don't tell you is that not all weight loss is fat loss. Now, I've talked about this several times on the show. If you're new to the show, definitely listen up, because this could be the thing that changes your perspective on all of this and unlocks a new phase of growth for you. If you had heard it before, I'm going to give you a different perspective today. Now think about it.

Philip Pape: 4:11

When you lose weight, right, your body can pull from multiple sources. It can pull from fat that's an energy storage source, but it can also pull from muscle tissue, water, bone density in some cases, and if you're only focused on seeing the number on the scale go down while you are doing the program, eating prepackaged meals, hitting arbitrary points, even just counting calories you have no control over where that weight comes from. And this is why so many people end up successfully losing weight according to their program or tracking app. But then they feel disappointed when they look in the mirror and we know that 95% of those people are going to regain the weight anyway. And so maybe it's not about the weight, because a lot of coaches try to sell you on sustaining the weight loss.

Philip Pape: 4:54

But I don't think it's about the weight at all, because most of these people and you've probably been there, I have as well, through all the diets I tried in the past have lost muscle along with fat, leaving you with what seems like the same shape, just smaller. An extreme of this is if you look at somebody who's in their 70s or 80s, who's been fairly sedentary their whole life, and they might have carried the same scale weight for the last 40 years, but they just seem tremendously weaker. It's because, despite being the same weight, most of their body composition has become fat rather than muscle, and it doesn't seem possible when you see how frail and thin they look. But that's how bad it is, in that most of that mass that they do carry is fat. Even though they're thin, that means they have zero muscle. You know, very little muscle.

Philip Pape: 5:37

So it's very important from a longevity and from a health perspective that we care about this stuff not just about our physique, and so people who've lost muscle along with fat because they're dieting, they're not strength training, they're not doing the things, their metabolism has also slowed down because they've lost that metabolically active tissue. They're probably often in a state of underfeeding and dieting and, worst of all, they're usually mentally exhausted from the constant pressure of doing this program, whatever it is, hitting the targets relentlessly, going after whatever it is and yet still not getting the result. You know how frustrating that is. You know how it makes you feel insane. It makes you feel like you're going insane, like this just doesn't work for me, when in reality it's. The thing you're trying to do is just the wrong thing for you. That's the empowering piece that I want to bring with you today.

Philip Pape: 6:24

All right, so that's what happens, but now let's talk about what actually does change your body, because we want to flip it, to be positive. What do we do about this? So where most tracking programs, most diet and weight loss programs get it wrong is they treat your body like a simple math equation calories in, calories out, and, while I am 100% on board with physics and energy balance, that is the tiniest piece of the equation. Yeah, it's part of it, but it's the tiniest piece. And we're not even talking about obesity or appetite or willpower, any of that stuff. We're literally just talking about the fact that, yes, your body will release some form of energy from somewhere if it doesn't have as many calories coming in as going out has. Has nothing to do with carbs, it has nothing to do with anything else. Points earned, points spent. Same thing like the Weight Watchers paradigm.

Philip Pape: 7:11

But your body is far more sophisticated than that. We know that it is constantly adapting. It responds to everything you do. It responds not just to what you eat, but how you train, how you sleep, how you manage stress dozens of other factors. So let's talk about what really drives changes in your physique when you're trying to get leaner and stronger. That's the look we're going for, and not only the look, but the performance we're going for. We're not just trying to make the scale go down. You're trying to preserve or build metabolically active muscle tissue while reducing body fat. It sounds simple, but I realize it's not as simple as it sounds. This is why two people can weigh exactly the same but look completely different. It's not about the number on the scale, it's about body composition. And if you don't believe me, look at any very fit athlete and find out their body weight and you will see that it is surprisingly higher than you thought because they're carrying all this extra lean tissue.

Philip Pape: 8:03

I'm often going through the mental exercise with potential clients or clients and it's very confusing when I say look, you can gain weight to build muscle. So let's say you gain 10 pounds and six of that is muscle, and then you can lose four pounds of fat. Well, guess what? The four pounds of fat you gained among those 10, you've now lost it. You're now six pounds heavier, but all six pounds of that is muscle. Do the math your body fat percentage just went down and you got leaner at a heavier scale. Weight Mind blown right. It's really hard for people to grasp that. It's also why I often encourage a lot of people to gain weight rather than try to lose weight, but do it in a structured program to build muscle.

Philip Pape: 8:45

Anyway, this is where the traditional programs and tracking and all that fall way short, because they are very one-dimensional. They don't account for macros, sometimes protein intake, which is crucial for maintaining muscle. They don't consider at all the quality of your training, and I am a strength training. First type of nutrition coach. If you're gonna work with me, you are absolutely gonna be training. I'm gonna help you figure out what works for you, make adjustments to your program heck, even write you a program, if I have to, okay, and give you feedback on that, because that, to me, is the foundation of then the right nutrition to support it. And when you're doing that, it signals your body to preserve muscle tissue even in a calorie deficit and potentially build new muscle tissue even in a calorie deficit, depending on how new you are to the training, and definitely build muscle in a calorie surplus or at maintenance. These programs the typical tracking do not. They certainly do not account for how your body adapts over time, where you have metabolic adaptation if you're overly aggressive with your restrictions.

Philip Pape: 9:45

So now think of the GLP-1 weight loss drugs like Ozempic, manjaro and all those which sometimes cause a rapid rate loss or going on keto and all of a sudden you lose 40 pounds in a month. That itself can be highly detrimental and people aren't thinking of that. They're like, okay, great, I lost a bunch of weight. Well, you just lost a bunch of muscle too, and I'm sure it doesn't feel too great either. Optivea, all these programs do that. That's how your body changes and why these subtle differences matter.

Philip Pape: 10:15

Now I want to talk about a better way to track. So if we're not obsessing over just hitting calories or just counting points or just eating these prepackaged foods or just doing this, you know the GLP-1, or whatever just eating these prepackaged foods or just doing this, you know the GLP-1, or whatever what should we care about? What should we track? What do we care about? What do we not care about? And so I want to think of this as like a hierarchy of meaningful progress indicators. Okay, like a hierarchy.

Philip Pape: 10:44

So first, first and foremost, in my opinion, is tracking our performance in the gym, and the reason I went through my notes and I'm like should I put that first? Should I put tracking food first? No, it's definitely our performance in the gym. This is the foundation of everything. I've had calls. I do these rapid nutrition assessments. They're free, 15 minutes. You can sign up for one in the show notes and we'll just have a chat about hey, what should you be doing going forward? It's not a sales pitch at all. I do these calls all the time and every now and then someone comes on and says well, I want to fix my nutrition. I don't care about training right now and I would encourage them to flip that around and say why don't we care about training and not nutrition? Because the nutrition is going to follow the training Meaning. Once you're training like an athlete, once you're building muscle and strength, you're going to want to eat better to support that period. It makes it so much easier. It makes fat loss easier. But if you only focus on nutrition and don't do training, you're not holding on or building muscle and you're missing the biggest piece of the equation for body composition.

Philip Pape: 11:37

So, number one, track your performance in the gym. Are you maintaining or increasing your strength right? Can you complete your movements with good form? Do you have the energy to support your training, both before and after your workouts, and all the biofeedback that comes with that, the soreness, the recovery and so on, the sleep, the food it all follows that. So first we need to understand are we performing well? Are we going to the gym consistently, three, four, five days a week, whatever program you're on? Are you progressing in intensity, load weight on the bar. Are you progressing in volume? Your overall volume has to be going up. Your work, I should say, has to be going up to show express that you are gaining strength and performance. Improving performance is one of the best indicators that you're preserving muscle mass while losing fat as well. Second, so number one performance in the gym.

Philip Pape: 12:26

Number two we want to look at physical changes beyond the scale. Now, I do want to include the scale in there, but if you only think of the scale and here's the ironic thing all my clients weigh themselves every day and all my clients at some point realize that the scale weight isn't that important. Yes, well, we need scale weight to get trend weight. We need trend weight to understand are we gaining or losing fat and or muscle? But beyond that, what we really care about is the end result to our body from doing that. We care about how our clothes are fitting, how our measurements are changing, and are they changing in the right places for what we want, right, our waist, our hips, our glutes, our chest, our arms, wherever it makes sense, up and down.

Philip Pape: 13:05

What do your progress photos show? If you're working with a coach like me, I will help objectively observe these. No judgment, right Just to see? Oh, okay, you have some loose skin around your abdomen because you used to be heavier and I know that's a stubborn. You know your midsection is a stubborn part for you. How do we deal with that? Is it training? Is it the nutrition? Is it more fat loss? What is it right? And so all of these things, these aspects of your physical changes beyond the scale visual and tangible indicators tell a much more accurate story than the scale, and sometimes you get to a point where you're like I don't really care about what the scale says. I will look at it from a perspective of adjusting my calories, but beyond that I don't really care.

Philip Pape: 13:46

Third, we want to pay attention to how you feel, and I don't mean necessarily subjectively, although it starts with you assessing it for yourself. It's an objective measure of your biofeedback how is your energy throughout the day? And you're comparing it over time. So, even though it's subjective in the moment, your subjective assessment over time creates a trend how is your hunger and appetite? Are you recovering well from workouts? How is your digestion right? That could be an indication of things like fiber. How is your sleep, and so on. Even, how is your libido? These factors, they indicate whether your approach is sustainable and whether your body's in a good place to do what you're trying to do, and for many people that's going into a fat loss phase while maintaining muscle.

Philip Pape: 14:31

I had a client call just yesterday, someone she is very good at following the plan. She's very consistent, and her question to me was is it okay if we potentially lower calories further? Her calories are already what I would consider rather low, they're in the low thousands. But she's also petite, she's like around 110, 120 pounds and her biofeedback looked fantastic, meaning she's getting plenty of sleep and recovery, her lifts are going up and she has little to no hunger. She's not on weight loss drugs or anything, she's just a smaller person with low metabolism who doesn't need to eat a lot and she feels that way, and so for her it actually might be sustainable to drop the calories by another, say, 100 calories per day for the week right. But for someone else who's ravenous, who's miserable, that biofeedback is telling me it's not sustainable. So I don't care if the deficit is what you quote unquote need to lose a certain rate of fat it's not sustainable. So let's face that reality together, using that data Super important for making it work long-term and actually being successful and actually sustaining it.

Shonetta: 15:39

Hi, my name is Sharnetta and I want to give a big shout out to Philip of Wits and Weights. I discovered his podcast just a few short months ago, but I quickly realized how valuable his content is. With all the many fitness and nutrition influencers out in the world today, I often suffer from information overload, but Philip poses careful questions to his guests that get to the meat of the subject matter, while most everyone offers free guides to this, and that what I found most unique about Philip is his live training and weekly Q&A sessions. If I can't make it live, I can always catch the replay. I am very grateful to find someone I feel is so passionate and genuine to his purpose, while also being hands-on within the Wits and Weights online community. He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do.

Philip Pape: 16:24

All right. So we put all this together. Now we want to build your new tracking system. After all, this podcast is all about creating a system to develop your physique. So how do we get away from what I call rigid number tracking meaning you're trying to hit these arbitrary exact numbers because the program says so to something that's more effective, right? Instead of hitting exact calorie targets which, in my early days as a coach and tracking macros, I was that rigid about it. And even tracking macros, even though we call it if it fits your macros or flexible dieting, can itself be inflexible if it's too rigid for you, and so we want to focus on ranges and minimums. I learned this both through experience and coaching, but also from guys like Dr Eric Helms, alan Aragon, dr Bill Campbell. All of these guys and they've been on the show had that common theme of let's make the tracking itself have a level of flexibility that's sustainable, and we think of it like guardrails, right? Rather than a tightrope walk. It's like guardrails or bumpers on the bowling alley, right? Those know those little bumpers for kids or even adults who maybe aren't that great at bowling, and so think of it as guardrails, and we want to anchor it from a food perspective, we're going to anchor it with protein. Right Hitting a minimum for protein is essential for preserving and building muscle.

Philip Pape: 17:40

The range for protein is between 0.7 to one gram per pound of body weight, and that 0.7 is very important because, yes, it's a minimum, but it's also an achievable minimum. If the one gram sounds like too much, so I know you might have heard lots of podcasts and experts say one gram per pound, you actually do not need that. 0.7 is not only enough, but what the literature is showing us more than enough as a starting point or even long-term, other than some corner cases, some unique cases. So aim for a minimum target of that 0.7. If you want to go above that, fine, right. That's what we're talking about with flexibility Beyond that.

Philip Pape: 18:15

We then create flexible ranges for fats and carbs that support your training and your energy needs, right? Neither fats nor carbs are good or bad. They provide different things. They provide things that help with hunger. They provide fiber. They provide energy for your hormones. Carbs, of course. I've gone on and on about how great carbs are for lifters in terms of recovery and performance, as well as protecting muscle tissue, and then having this flexibility gives you then plenty of room to adjust, based on hunger, based on social events, even how you're feeling on a given day. It can float up or down with lots of tolerance, and you can still make progress right.

Philip Pape: 18:55

And what makes this approach powerful is we're not just tracking food right, we're not just tracking calories. We're creating a complete feedback loop. Every week we look at the totality of these things together and how they feed back into the behaviors and choices you're making. Your average trend weight, not the daily fluctuations, your gym performance over time. What is your log showing in totality, not just day to day, but even over the weeks and months, with your blocks, your mesocycles, whatever phrases you want to call them? Are they all working together? Your progress photos, your measurements, your energy levels, recovery, all your biofeedback and then, just generally, how sustainable does this whole approach feel right now?

Philip Pape: 19:36

It might have worked for you for the last two months and all of a sudden, something feels like a wall. It feels like you're sticking. Okay, it may be time to reevaluate the plan. It's okay to and so this is a comprehensive, nuanced, intelligent view that tells us what's working and what needs adjustment. No more guessing on whether you're making progress just because you hit an arbitrary target or the point of the guardrails, but it's not so precise that you obsess about it to the point where it's not only not necessary, it actually makes the process unsustainable, all right. The last thing I want to mention and this is what most people never realize about tracking progress is that it is not about restriction, like the whole point of tracking isn't to say here are all the things I can't do and here's all the exact things I have to hit, and therefore I'm saying no to lots of things. It's really freedom, it's empowerment, so that you can stop fixating on hitting some exact numbers and instead start paying attention within those guardrails, to what actually matters. How are you feeling? Is this sustainable?

Philip Pape: 20:48

And when that happens, something remarkable happens. You develop an intuitive yes, intuitive understanding of how your body responds to different inputs, including food. And, yes, if you've heard the phrase intuitive eating, that's a I'll call it a legitimate use of that phrase in a way that will actually work for people, as opposed to hey, I'm going to eat intuitively, listen to my hunger signals, and yet you've never tracked and have no idea how you could trust your hunger. No, I have tracked, I've given myself guardrails. Now I understand how my body responds to these things. Now I can do it more intuitively, going forward. And then you learn to trust the process because you can see the real changes happening. It's actually producing the result.

Philip Pape: 21:33

You know not just scale, weight, but your strength, your energy, how you look and feel, the things we actually care about. And then that knowledge, that education, stays with you long after you stop tracking. When I say I want people to fire me after they work with me as a coach, that is what I mean. I want them to have that knowledge, that intuition to go forward. That makes me so proud and so happy and even grateful that I'm able to spend time with somebody to get to that point right, because that is a life changed forever. And hopefully that person you know if you're listening, that's you. You spread that message to others. You know who are seeking it. It becomes part of who you are. You don't need to obsess over every calorie or macro anymore, because you understand the principles that drive real change, whether that's your physique or anything else, and that's true freedom, and that is available to anyone who is willing to make the shift. You are all able, you just have to be willing.

Philip Pape: 22:23

So if what I've shared resonates with you, if you're ready to break free from rigid diets, rigid tracking systems and start focusing on what actually matters for changing your physique, I want to invite you to join us in Wits and Weights Physique University. This is exactly what we do inside the program. We help you build a sustainable system to tracking progress that delivers real results, without the mental burden of hitting exact numbers every day. And just to give you a little detail of what's included in there, you get, yes, the system, which includes an onboarding right from day one, all of the tools, exactly how to use them, there's videos, there's all this fun stuff to show you that you get expert guidance on adjusting your approach based on progress. And we do that through the community, through weekly live coaching calls and through tagging me and others in the community to get coaching as we go along. You get the community itself, which is a bunch of other folks trying to do the same thing, like-minded, that spur you on, that cheer you on.

Philip Pape: 23:19

And then I mentioned the weekly live coaching calls. We actually alternate those. One week it's a non-recorded private coaching call where you can get into more sensitive topics and get some coaching, and then the other week is more educational, where we cover a training topic as well as have some coaching and those we record and include the replay. So visit witsandweightscom slash physique to learn more on how to join and to learn more about the program. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember real progress isn't about perfect numbers, it's about consistent actions that actually change your body. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Your Macros and Training Plan Mean Nothing Without THIS (Kevin Palmieri) | Ep 250

Ready to match your effort to your physique goals? Get evidence-based strategies that work by joining my FREE email list at witsandweights.com/email

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Are you training hard but feel like you're getting nowhere? Wondering why your effort isn’t translating into results? What does it take to get to level 10 in fitness or life?

Philip (@witsandweights) connects with Kevin Palmieri, co-host of the globally-ranked Next Level University podcast with over 1,900 episodes. Kevin opens up about his journey from the stage as a bodybuilder to balancing fitness with business and life. They dive into why even evidence-based plans fail without matching effort to goals and how to bridge that gap through mindset, sustainability, and strategy. 

Learn the power of starting small, the truth about elite fitness goals, and how flexibility, communication, and consistency can transform your journey.

Kevin Palmieri is the co-founder and co-host of Next Level University, a top-rated self-improvement podcast. His insights on mindset, fitness, and personal development are backed by years of experience and dedication to helping others optimize their lives.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:25 Understanding results vs. effort
5:25 The importance of sustainability in fitness
10:18 Honest conversations about priorities and effort
12:51 The sustainability-consistency-improvement framework
19:52 The power of flexibility and fundamentals in fitness
24:30 Discussion about fitness influencers, life priorities, and circumstances
34:16 The uncomfortable truths about extreme fitness goals
39:52 Turning discomfort into confidence through bulking
44:46 Building belief in your ability to control body composition
48:37 The power of commitment devices for consistency
51:47 Outro

Episode resources:

• Email: kevin@nextleveluniverse.com

• Website: nextleveluniverse.com

• Instagram: @neverquitkid

Why Perfect Training Plans Fail (And How to Finally Match Your Effort to Your Fitness Goals)

You know what to do. You've read the research on progressive overload, protein requirements, and optimal training frequency. But despite following what looks like the perfect plan on paper, you're still not seeing the results you want. What gives?

The Hidden Gap Between Knowledge and Results

Most people think they just need more information - the latest training program, another diet strategy, or some revolutionary supplement. But as I discussed with Kevin Palmieri, founder of Next Level University and former competitive bodybuilder, the real issue often isn't knowledge - it's execution.

Why Level 5 Effort Won't Get You Level 10 Results

One of the biggest revelations from my conversation with Kevin was the uncomfortable truth about effort levels. Many of us want elite-level results while putting in moderate effort. As Kevin explains, this disconnect between our goals and our actual commitment level is often what holds us back.

The Three Keys to Sustainable Progress

Through our discussion, Kevin outlined three critical elements for actually achieving your fitness goals:

1. Sustainability - Start with what you can actually maintain long-term, even if it seems "too easy"

2. Consistency - Build habits you can stick to before trying to optimize everything

3. Improvement - Only after establishing consistency should you focus on progression

Finding Your True Sustainable Level

Rather than jumping into an aggressive 6-day training split or dramatic diet overhaul, Kevin suggests starting with what he calls "embarrassingly small goals." This might mean:

• One 15-minute gym session per week

• Adding a single serving of protein to each meal

• Getting an extra 1,000 steps daily

While this may seem insufficient, it's about building momentum that compounds over time.

The Reality Check About Elite Results

For those chasing more extreme goals like getting stage-lean or building significant muscle, Kevin shared some hard truths from his bodybuilding experience. The reality is that achieving elite-level results often requires:

• Sacrificing social flexibility

• Dealing with mental health challenges

• Managing relationship strain

• Potentially developing disordered eating patterns

A Better Approach for Most People

Instead of pursuing unsustainable extremes, focus on:

1. Matching effort to realistic goals - Be honest about what you're willing to consistently commit to

2. Building foundational habits - Master the basics before adding complexity

3. Creating accountability - Use "commitment devices" to ensure follow-through

4. Maintaining flexibility - Allow for life's natural chaos while staying generally consistent

The Path Forward: Sustainable Progress

The key takeaway from my conversation with Kevin is that sustainable progress beats unsustainable perfection every time. Rather than trying to force yourself into someone else's optimal program, focus on finding what you can actually maintain long-term.

Start with honest self-assessment about your true priorities and capacity for commitment. Then build from there, gradually increasing your effort as your foundation of consistency grows stronger.

Remember - you don't have to choose between being perfectly optimal and making zero progress. There's a middle ground where real, lasting results happen through sustainable effort matched to realistic goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

You know what to do. You know the value of flexible nutrition, tracking your macros, following an effective training program and training hard in the gym. Yet you still aren't seeing the physical results you want, whether that's getting stronger, losing fat or building more muscle. If you're starting to wonder if maybe you're missing something, even if your nutrition and training plan look perfect on paper, what I'm about to share might challenge everything you believe about effort and results. Today I'm sitting down with someone who's not only transformed his own physique but has published over 1,900 podcast episodes about reaching the next level and been featured on nearly 3,000 shows to uncover why even the best evidence-based training and nutrition approach can fail without the right mindset and execution. You'll discover why level 5 effort will never get you level 10 results. How to honestly assess if you're really putting in the work and the framework for finally matching your effort to your goals.

Philip Pape: 1:03

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are answering the question why do most people fail to achieve their fitness goals? Is it a lack of information, the wrong plan or something else? My mentor, friend and returning guest, kevin Palmieri, is the founder and co-host of Next Level University, a global top 100 self-improvement podcast with over get this 1,900 episodes, and he's been a guest on over 3,000 other podcasts.

Philip Pape: 1:38

After realizing that even perfect plans fail without elite execution, kevin has built a framework for matching your effort level to your goals, whether that's in the gym, in the kitchen or in life. Today, you'll learn fail without elite execution. Kevin has built a framework for matching your effort level to your goals, whether that's in the gym, in the kitchen or in life. Today, you'll learn that having a plan and knowing what to do isn't enough if your effort doesn't match your ambitions. How to honestly assess where you're falling short and what's required to finally start putting in true level 10 effort with your nutrition and training. Kevin, my friend, so good we made this happen and that you are back on the show, philip, I appreciate that wonderful introduction so very much.

Kevin Palmieri: 2:10

I hope I can live up to the reputation you have created for me. That will be the goal. But I'm excited to chat. You're a wonderful human and any opportunity I get to chat with you is always a good time. So here we are.

Philip Pape: 2:20

Yeah, we know each other really well at this point through both friendship and mentorship and coaching, podcasting, a little bit of fitness. You came on episode 54 back. We were talking like gosh two years, maybe over a year ago now, and I like with the intros, I like to set the standard for what the guest brings, so as opposed to the other way around. So you're already there, man.

Lisa: 2:41

You're already there, all right I appreciate it.

Philip Pape: 2:44

You're already there. Now, besides being such a great guy, I wanted you on so that we could talk about wanting level 10 results but not being able to prioritize putting in the effort to get there, not not so much as judgment on people like not working hard enough, not enough willpower, but just the realities of life and balance and all of these things. So you host a podcast that has the phrase next level in it, and I think it's appropriate, but you know, none of us are perfect. None of us are all at that level 10 or where we might want to be. So, as a guy who has been in the bodybuilding game in the past and you're showing off your guns right now on the video and who also has a thriving business to run, is this something you struggle with right now?

Kevin Palmieri: 3:25

This whole thing started. Let's just cut to the chase. Let's just cut to the chase. Philip and I have a wonderful WhatsApp dialogue going on.

Kevin Palmieri: 3:32

He reached out to me one day and said hey, can I ask you a question? And I said yeah, of course. And he said as a business owner and somebody into self-improvement and what you do, what is your biggest struggle when it comes to fitness? And I said, honestly, the biggest struggle is understanding that I want 10 out of 10 level results, but I can't really put in level 10 effort. When I was bodybuilding, I was waking up and doing an hour of cardio, going home, eating, going, working out for an hour. All my life was essentially make food, eat food, work out, rest, and I was in really, really good shape and I won on stage and that's awesome. But that's not necessarily sustainable for where I am today. So I feel like I'm struggling with it less than I ever have, but I've also drastically adjusted my expectations for myself and I've also drastically adjusted my expectations for myself and I've also drastically adjusted the perception of myself, and that's I think. I'm not saying lower standards, I'm saying create more accurate understanding of standards based on circumstances.

Philip Pape: 4:40

Essentially, yeah, that makes sense. There's realistic expectations come to mind, but, like you said, without lowering the standards. It makes me think of a conversation I had with a friend about is there such a thing as good enough whether it's in fitness or any other pursuit, like if someone generally just wants to be healthy and look decent, not get on stage like you did. You know what is that effort level required and are they even achieving that? So I think I think we want to kind of hit on both sides of the equation for folks that are just struggling to do anything maybe and want to make progress sort of beginners, if you will and then those who are really busy. They know what to do, they have the information, they listen to this podcast, they know all about protein and everything else and they're like, eh, something's not quite clicking, so where do we take it from there, kevin?

Kevin Palmieri: 5:24

I would say if you're somebody who doesn't feel like you're doing anything and you're struggling, the first, the one word that matters more than anything, in my opinion, is sustainability. Nothing really matters if what you're doing isn't sustainable. The best diet regimen, the best exercise regimen, just doesn't matter. If it's not sustainable. You can start with really good intentions and you can start with high levels of motivation, but if it's not sustainable, you won't continue it. So sustainability for me is always the most important thing. I'll be very, very honest. We grew our business a ton last year.

Kevin Palmieri: 6:02

I also was out of the gym more than I had been in the last five years probably. When I was working my way back in, I went to a smaller gym that had less bodybuilders in it, because for me, it was more sustainable for me to go make my mistakes and look like a weakling there Again my standards, my words for me than it was at the home gym that I go to all the time. I wasn't prepared for that level of feedback yet. I just wasn't. I was essentially feeling like I was starting from zero.

Kevin Palmieri: 6:34

So sustainability is wildly important, and I think it's also the least sexy thing in the world, and that's why not a lot of people talk about it. A lot of people say, well, go exercise for two hours, take massive action, all that stuff. It works for some humans, but not for everyone. And I would say, on the other end, if you feel like you know all the stuff and you listen to this podcast and you have resources and you're not doing it, I think it's a real challenging conversation of core beliefs and core values and core aspirations. Would you rather go to the gym after work or would you rather be home with your family?

Kevin Palmieri: 7:14

That is a real, honest conversation that I think is important to have, because I don't think you can really balance everything. I think that's made up. I don't think it's real. I think what you're doing is juggling everything. So right now I'm here with Philip, I'm not spending time with my wife and I'm not making any money Right. So right now I'm doing this. The other areas of my life are technically falling slowly, but if I'm juggling three things, two of those balls are not getting caught right now, and I think of that from a fitness perspective too, for very busy human beings.

Philip Pape: 7:52

All right. So there's a lot of really good things. I want to pull on some threads. So what you ended with, with balance not being a thing I totally agree with. I've used the word integration or or whatever it is.

Philip Pape: 8:04

We joke that you're on this show today and you've got like back to back, uh, calendar, and all this stuff's not going to happen because of that, and you, like you said you have to evaluate should I do this or should I do this? Now, it's not always binary, right? Like sometimes that's an excuse where we're saying we're we're forcing ourselves into a binary decision when it it's not really, but I get it. So you also mentioned sustainability, which, yeah, it's a buzzword that becomes this unsexy thing like sleep. When I put out an episode on sleep, I'm like this is going to solve everybody's recovery and training needs and nobody listens to it because it says sleep. You got to say something like do this one thing for massive gains, all right, so let's talk about practical things.

Philip Pape: 8:47

You said you went to a different environment. The smaller gym, fewer bodybuilders. Actually reminded me of a meme I saw and if you saw this, arnold Schwarzenegger and it says like if you're going to wear gloves to the gym you might as well take your purse with you or something like that. It's you know, but anyway it reminded me of a discussion I just had with the founder of Boostcamp. He's on probably the episode before or after this one, I don't know. He said that they looked at data of lifters and their drop-off rates and they found that three days a week had a much smaller drop-off weight than four. And it's a great way to look at adherence and sustainability from a practical perspective is, if you're trying to do that four day a week program and you just can only get in three days, you're going to feel so frustrated, but if you do a two day a week program, it should be easy.

Philip Pape: 9:33

So let's talk about that, those standards then, for somebody trying to just get fit and again, you have a background in lifting. Let's target the folks that are in their forties or fifties. They have a family, they have a business or a job, kind of like you, but they, they need to go through that effort. That's probably a higher level effort than you right now, cause they're you're maintaining, I think hopefully they want to grow Well, right, cause certain things get detrained. I get it, um, just like you, not being with being with your family right now is getting detrained. Where do they start?

Kevin Palmieri: 10:11

And then we can talk about how you're not putting enough effort. We'll go from there. That's the hard thing is you start by not putting enough effort in. That's really the weird thing about all this, and I've been saying this so often on podcasts there is no one size fits all. I think most blanket statements are just wrong, because if it seems to work for everyone, it probably works for no one If we really think about it, because we're not factoring in the circumstances. So I would say you do the least amount humanly possible. That will give you any feeling of progress. That is the advice I would give.

Kevin Palmieri: 10:49

You and I were talking in the pre-chat before this and we were talking about the podcast and I said, oh, I didn't know, you started doing episodes every other week. And you said, yeah, that's what I was doing in the beginning. It would be really easy for me to look at that and say you're never going to win that way. I. I do seven episodes a week. Not good that I've been doing this a long time. This is like the thing that I do.

Kevin Palmieri: 11:10

I always tell clients I want you to do the minimum that you will actually stick with, because it's not about the gains or the results or the weight loss in the first week, that doesn't matter. It's not about that. It's about are you there two months later doing the thing at a high enough clip where you can actually get results? So I'm in this phase now, philip, of setting goals that are almost embarrassingly small, because when you start to get momentum, it's easier to go. It's easier to go to the gym or whatever your preferred preference. When it comes to go, it's easier to go to the gym or whatever your preferred preference. When it comes to exercises, it's easier to do it when you've been doing it longer. So that would be my advice. It might not be the best, most practical advice in the world, but I've just seen that work, more than almost anything else I've ever said to anyone, which makes it practical.

Philip Pape: 12:03

Which makes it very practical.

Philip Pape: 12:05

I mean, just to quote something you just said it starts with not enough effort. I think that's a really good reframe because people are trying to do enough for something but if they're doing zero, going from zero to one and you see this in a lot of paradigms I spoke with Dr Sarah Ballantyne. Her episode came out on the show and she said going from zero to one servings of vegetables a day is as effective as going from one to four when it comes to like longevity, right, we see this everywhere. So sitting on the couch to going to the gym one day a week is going to make a massive, a massive change. But something else he said was like you could almost do that. Find that minimum level and kind of not coast. But do that. Find that minimum level and kind of not coast, but do that for a while in a compound. So can you essentially half-ass your way to a great physique, right?

Kevin Palmieri: 12:51

I think you can half-ass your way to a better physique. Okay, good, but I don't think you're most likely going to be able to half-ass your way to your ideal physique Good way to put it. This is my thought process on it. So there's three steps. Sustainability is the first one. You do something sustainably to start. When sustainability becomes relatively easy, that means you're doing it consistently. So if you start sustainably, then you can act consistently. Then the third step is improvement.

Kevin Palmieri: 13:23

So when you lock in, I go to the gym let's just use the gym as an example. I go to the gym one time per week for 15 minutes, cool, awesome. And eventually you say that's sustainable, I'm doing it consistently. I've been doing it for two months. All right, I've done it back to back. Okay, maybe not a ton of time, but let's see. Do we think we could go one time a week for 30 minutes? Do we think we could go two times a week for 15 minutes? Both, all right, let's see. And then it gets to the point where that becomes easy. So yeah, I think it's a conversation about ideal versus realistic. Ideally, you would go to the gym the recommended amount of times, whatever that is for you. Realistically, it might take you three years to get there, okay, and that's. That's totally fine, because the majority of the amazing results you get are probably going to be in the first three years, anyway, because that's when you're changing all of your behaviors. So that, whatever that answer is, that's what I would say.

Philip Pape: 14:24

No, that's a simple framework Sustainability, consistency, improvement. The question people might say is what if that first step, even though it's sustainable, is not enough to show something meaningful for a long time?

Kevin Palmieri: 14:38

That's the hard part is again easier said than done. You have to measure the inputs as much, if not more, than the outputs when you're new to something, because the inputs are the thing that you're not doing. You're not doing the input, so you're definitely not going to get the, the output. There is a lag. There's a lag between input and then perceived result. So I would say it's test and then reevaluate. So if you feel like, if you feel like it's sustainable and you've done it and nothing is happening, then I would say all right, cool. How much more could we challenge ourselves? Would it be sustainable still to multiply the time? Let's just say add 50, so we're going to do 20 minutes instead of 15. Awesome, let's start there. I, that's kind of my, my thought process, because I think one of the big things that can happen is, if you push it too hard, too fast, you identify as the type of person who is not capable of doing it and then you just stop and then you lose, lose all the momentum. I'd rather have 50% momentum than zero.

Philip Pape: 15:48

Yeah, it makes perfect sense because the base of information that you're working from. This is where I think that is important, in that, when they listen to this podcast or read the Muscle and Strength Pyramids or hopefully find good, solid information, you can have at least a baseline level of confidence that the steps you're taking measured by the inputs, like you said, measured by the inputs, because the outputs aren't going to show up for a while. We'll eventually produce those outputs. The challenge is, if people don't know the right information to begin with and then they go down the wrong path I don't want to really get it too much into that today, because the premise is that we kind of have that information, what about somebody who's doing too much and stumbling, like you said, and then they have to dial it back? Do we dial it back all the way or do we? Is there a backward stare process to like decrement us down into a sustainable place?

Kevin Palmieri: 16:36

That's a great question. Usually, usually, that's not where I am with people. Usually it's the other way. Yeah, I would say it's probably. The word that comes to mind for me is simplify and optimize. So I guess we have to get specific on what the actual behaviors are that the people are practicing. But when you say they're doing too much, what do you mean?

Philip Pape: 16:59

Yeah, I'm thinking doing a lot of cardio or going to the gym seven days a week, thinking they need that level of volume for results. I guess what I'm implying is they're not getting results even with all that. Work is where I'm coming from.

Kevin Palmieri: 17:11

Yeah, I think that. So my argument for that would be if that is the behavior, then the awareness isn't high enough, because now there's a ton of data out there that suggests that is not the way to do it. And if you're doing that, maybe you're overtraining I know that's another buzzword in the industry but then maybe the awareness isn't enough. So that's kind of the thought when you're starting. It's as much about the mindset as it is the strategy and the work ethic. If you've already been doing it for a long time, give yourself two thumbs up and check the box.

Kevin Palmieri: 17:49

You're really good at the work ethic part, but the strategy and the mindset are off. So that's what you have to work on. It's the mindset and the strategy, not the work ethic. I think in the beginning it typically is the work ethic that people are afraid to put out there. So I would say it's probably a conversation of awareness more than anything else. You have to seek new information that proves to you that it's not. It proves to you that the reason you're not getting the results is not the strategy, but it is the strategy in a way, and then you can adjust accordingly.

Philip Pape: 18:25

Yeah, no, it makes sense Because people are I know folks that listen are sometimes fearful of dropping a bunch of work from their plate that they think is getting them fitness goals and then all of a sudden they're going to gain a bunch of weight, lose a bunch of muscle, whatever. Yeah, yeah. But look, if you're listening, if you're not getting the result doing that anyway, what is that telling you? Like, strip it back.

Kevin Palmieri: 18:45

What you feel like you're doing is you feel like you're doing optimal, like what I'm doing is optimal but realistically you're not getting any results. Yeah, so it's not going to work in the long run anyway, so we have to adjust something. It just also seems like the least logical thing to adjust. It's like well, why should I do less when more isn't getting me results? Completely understandable, but there are certain times where you're just not in the right, you're out of optimal. It just doesn't feel like it.

Philip Pape: 19:11

So now, once people get through that cycle and they start to build momentum and start to grow and up-level themselves, what separates those operating at a level 10, understanding that that goalpost can move right, From those that are kind of stuck at a five or six? They're not at a zero, they're at a five or six. What would you say differentiates those assuming it's not intentional? You know what I mean.

Kevin Palmieri: 19:34

Yeah, can you ref, can you reframe for me?

Philip Pape: 19:40

the question. The question yeah, please um, okay, yeah what distinguishes a level 10 person from a level 5 person in terms of?

Kevin Palmieri: 19:48

fitness specifically yeah sure fitness I would say honestly, probably flexibility. I think flexibility is a really big thing that a lot of people don't talk about it, but I would argue that my business partner is probably at a level 10 in terms of inputs, but he is also wildly flexible with what counts as a workout. So for him, walking the dog is something that he checks the box off and he's getting a workout. He started by doing 25 minutes of weight training seven days a week. He works out every day. I'm not saying that's what I don't aspire to, that that's what he aspires to. Then, when that became sustainable, he did 30. Then it went to 35. Then it went to 40. Then it went to 45. All of it was a moving target based on your own standards, paired with flexibility. So I would say that it's way more about your ability to show up than it is the results you get, because there's a lot of people that are in really good shape that well, they've just been doing it. I've been doing this so long. I can get away with things that maybe other people can't, so I'm not a good example of just do what I do. So I think flexibility is one, I think prioritization is is probably two, and then I man, more than ever, I would say, understanding and practicing the basic fundamentals, the principles.

Kevin Palmieri: 21:11

Yeah, you talked about sleep. I used to be the guy who got four hours of sleep and I went. I just hopped up on NO Explode, I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to crank out a great workout. Now, when I get eight hours of sleep, everything is better, my workouts are better, my days are better, I drink more water because I'm awake. It doesn't seem like it attaches to everything, but it is the foundation of everything. So I would say it's the fundamentals that don't seem like they matter, that matter to everything else that's going to help you in the short and long run.

Philip Pape: 21:46

That's powerful, right, because there are people that want to jump to hey, I want to lose fat but you don't have the basics. And hey, that extra hour of sleep is just going to make it easy to lose fat, right, and guess what? You don't have to eat as few calories. Going back to the flexibility, this is a really good one because I've been thinking a lot about training. I consider myself like intermediate lifter, if you will, and I started with programs that were very simple, basic, you know, like boring, but basic, right, like a set of three by five squat type program which a lot of people do, and I think they're great.

Philip Pape: 22:17

Initially they're not flexible, other than maybe the amount you jump, you know, in weight session to session, um. But now I'm a huge fan of periodization, of base and peaking and undulation and like just really varying it up, not for its own sake, but because there's benefit to that um, to your body. So I think there's a literal flexibility and there's a metaphorical flexibility we're talking about. That is hugely important with fitness. So if you're listening, like, just this is for the people that are already at level five, trying to get to level 10, we already addressed going from zero to five. So it's kind of like you're periodizing your leveling right Start with the basics, the sustainability, and then move on to these others.

Kevin Palmieri: 22:57

Can I add a real quick thought? Yeah, yeah, please, please, this. I think this is what I'm trying to. I'm trying to get this to land in my own head so I can say it out loud. We had somebody on the podcast early on. Her name's Lori Harder and she said something that I'll never forget for as long as I'm alive. She said consistent 70% days are better than spotty 100% days, and that's essentially what I'm saying, is I'm thinking more about the trend line. So if you are doing a little bit better than you were doing at this point last week, it's never going to actually be 100%. So if you're getting closer to whatever your unique capability is, that is a win in my book. I don't aspire ever to get to that bodybuilding level again. It's never going to happen, but I do aspire to get closer and closer and closer and closer. So now it's not about me getting to optimal. It's, it's about me getting to realistic, based on the circumstances. The lifestyle and the effort I'm willing to put in Makes sense.

Philip Pape: 23:57

Yeah, and the idea of using the levels. This is just a uh what do?

Lisa: 24:01

you call it.

Philip Pape: 24:02

A stand-in because somebody who, like you, are you might be operating on level 10 for what you want today and it's a lot lower level 10 than before. So, yeah, I mean, as long as you're happy, as long as you're meeting where you want to meet. So here's what I wonder what do you think about the? When you look at the fitness industry, we look at all the um influencers. Oh boy, how many of them are putting in level 10 effort versus just really marketing. Well, what are your thoughts on that?

Kevin Palmieri: 24:28

Oh man.

Kevin Palmieri: 24:30

I mean one. I'm willing to bet. If you looked at the median age of most of these influencers, they're probably in their mid twenties. So there's something different about I remember the 20,. When I was in the mid twenties you could do anything and it kind of worked. I have worked out with some people in the fitness industry that have really big followings and what I will say is they have days where they record content and they have days where they really work out, and the workouts you see online are not usually their days where they're actually working out.

Philip Pape: 25:02

Yeah, yeah, that's a disconnect.

Kevin Palmieri: 25:05

Right or wrong? I'm not. I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm not trying to throw smoke on anybody. I've done workouts with people that didn't get recorded and they were drastically different than the ones that got did. Uh, that that did get recorded. So I think they're probably closer to 10 than we realize. Because if it's your brand, you do we realize. Because if it's your brand, you do it right. If it's your brand, you, you live it. I probably have the privilege of consuming more self-improvement content than somebody else because it's quite literally my job. So when I was more in the fitness space, I was doing way more stuff associated with fitness. Yeah, makes sense, it was my job. I had to look good. That was kind of the thing I have to be good at base. I was doing way more stuff associated with fitness. Yeah, makes sense, it was my job. I had to look good. That was kind of the thing I have to be good at self-improvement. So I have to study it. So I would say they're probably up there. They just don't market that.

Philip Pape: 25:59

Yeah, it makes sense and it's not always a sign of a lack of ethics, because a good coach is going to coach people across a variety of programming styles and whatnot and maybe follow something different on their own. Okay, we talked about sustainability. When it comes to sustainability like let's say, you get to a level where you're training four days a week, you're, you're sleeping a lot, everything else One of the biggest challenges, like my clients face all the time, is life. Like life gets in the way, and that's kind of going back to the prioritization thing, not just on a weekly basis, but randomly right, like randomly, things come up. What do we do? Like knowing that chaos is going to happen, what's your approach to being ready for that and having that resilience or flexibility which you kind of alluded to already?

Kevin Palmieri: 26:40

I get it out of the way early. So, no matter what happens it, it never goes away. That's the first exercise for me is the first thing I do. It is the foundation of my oh okay, yeah, first first time of the day. Yeah, perfect, it's okay, awesome, unless something is burning down at six o'clock in the morning, which it usually isn't.

Kevin Palmieri: 26:56

I'm, I'm going to do that immediately. I would say it's the flexibility to say you know, it's the flexibility to say you know, I really wanted to go weight train today, but what I'm going to do is I'm going to go outside and play with the kids for 30 minutes and burn some calories doing that. Or I know and again I know it's not one-to-one, but I know I didn't have time to exercise today, but I do know we're going to be mulching this weekend, so I'm going to be lifting a lot of stuff and I'm going to be moving around. It's that it's not the one or zero, it's maybe we get a half point today because we did something differently than we wouldn't have. That's usually where my mind goes.

Kevin Palmieri: 27:34

I think doing it as a like a pillar of a morning or a night routine is probably the best. But again, easy for the ultimate cat dad to say because I don't have. I don't have real children, so it's a little bit different, but that's what I would say. I would probably ask you that. I would probably turn the tables on you and say well, as someone who does have a family and children, what keeps you consistent?

Philip Pape: 27:56

Yeah, it's funny, the working out of the morning thing actually, I've been talking about a lot lately, including with regards to sleep, because it can improve your sleep to work out in the morning. Yeah, I'd like to say, just prioritize the one or two things you have to do that you are going to do. That is sacrosanct for you in your week. I can't imagine not training when, like I can't if I'm not on vacation.

Lisa: 28:16

I'm going to train, I'm going to.

Philip Pape: 28:17

God damn it. I'm going to find a way to train, but the problem with that is then maybe something else actually gets? You know, yeah, so, um, I guess the right answer that I would say is it's going to depend on the person, their schedule, their lifestyle, their like you said, circumstances and what works for you.

Philip Pape: 28:33

I think there's not. It's often an excuse, and so there's reframing involved. But we also have to meet people where they're at like. If you have a night shift job where you get five hours of sleep I'm not going to be the 20 year old influencer it's like, well, you need eight, you just need eight hours, like finding. And there's literally no way they're going to do it unless they change their job. And I'm not in here trying to, you know, change economic policy and get you a new job. Yeah, so right, so you got to do. But you better eat a lot more food hardly be dieting and you better work out maybe two or three days a week rather than five, because you need more. You know what I mean. So you have to make all those trade-offs.

Kevin Palmieri: 29:10

Yeah, well, that's the hard thing is there is a trade-off. So maybe you talk to your partner and you say, hey, I know things were a little haywire today. Is there any way I can sneak away for 30 minutes? I want to try to get a quick lift in, or whatever it is. I think that's a really big piece of it too is just having honest conversations with the people around you. If somebody understands how much something means to you, they're going to try to help you find a way to get that need met.

Kevin Palmieri: 29:36

Now, that can't always be it. If the kids are throwing up or whatever. Some days you're probably going to have to miss it. But I think that's the hard thing is to your point. Sometimes that's going to be the truth. Your circumstances, yes, we can overcome and work through circumstances, but not always. Sometimes circumstances dictate our reality and I'm never going to be one of those people who says, well, you know what, so you don't have any money or you don't have anywhere to live, it doesn't matter, go sell this and eventually you'll have a penthouse. Yeah, no, that's not the way I like to talk about it. Some days the circumstances will win. I think we just have to be honest and do our best to try to make sure the circumstances don't win sequentially, because that's when things get off. So just because today went off the rails, it doesn't mean tomorrow we can't try to have a more aligned, specific, intentional day.

Philip Pape: 30:29

You alluded to something really powerful there and that's communication, and I don't want to let that one go because don't take this the wrong way You're a lot like my wife in that you are like an empath in a way, and I've heard you and Alan talk about this on your show the different personality traits and strengths and whatnot. You seem emotionally connected to people in a way. Not a lot of folks are, and maybe you've developed that. But especially when it comes to men, men often have time, difficulty, being vulnerable and sharing, and that's something I've worked on.

Philip Pape: 30:58

Myself like to say that I'm kind of cold and calm and collected about things, which can be a strength when I'm like receiving, as a vessel, someone else's venting, like it just brushes off me, but it could be a downside when I don't respond or act like I'm listening Right. So communication could be the thing you're missing If you're listening to this, when everything seems to not be working with that balance and it could just just be someone else is kind of either holding you back, intentionally or not. You know. It could be a roommate who's sabotaging your eating patterns by putting candy on the counter or something simple like that.

Philip Pape: 31:33

You just have to talk to them. Easier said than done, it's a skill, but you talk about it all the time on your show because you cover much more than fitness and I think it's worth people to be aware of that. Right, it's not just these strategic things.

Kevin Palmieri: 31:45

No, there's a. Really. Essentially, what we're talking about is we're talking about identifying and adjusting resistance. That's all. That's all it really is and and environment and you use that word earlier, before I brought it up. Environment does create resistance, and one of the reasons environments create resistance is because of the people in the environment.

Kevin Palmieri: 32:04

So the last thing you're going to want to do is I'll give this as an example my wife and I have a practice where, if something is coming up and there is a conflict maybe I have a podcast scheduled or I'm supposed to do something I'll say on a scale of zero to 10, how important is this to you? If it's a 10, I reschedule whatever I have going on. If it's a five, we have a conversation and I say look for me, the thing that I'm doing is like a nine and a half. Is that okay? She said, yeah, absolutely. That's something you could do with fitness. Oh, I know, babe, I know we're supposed to have date night tonight. Is there any way that we can do it 40 minutes later so I can get a quick workout in? That's a completely different day. So flexibility not only falls on you, it also falls on the people around you, if they're willing to partake in the things that you value.

Kevin Palmieri: 32:57

But that's why I go back to the core values and the core beliefs. Core value for me is fitness. It is a core, freaking value. I love it. A core belief for me is I am a better man when I'm in better shape. I'm more fulfilled, I have more self-trust. I just am. I just. I have more to give, I have more to pour from. I believe that if I go to the gym, I'll be a better partner. So that's all in my head Anytime I'm making the decisions, or asking for grace when I need it, which I do often the other day.

Philip Pape: 33:44

Okay, she was with my daughters and I was a half hour away from recording a podcast with a guest a guest who we had rescheduled twice is a pretty big name. And going through my head is what do I do, right? Do I drop everything to fix the flat? Do I tell her just wait for an hour and a half, which you know? That's not the answer, or it was their middle ground. There was a middle ground. She understood. She's like why don't you just come pick us up, bring us back home, cause it was 10 minutes away? Fortunately, we did that, left the car. Later on, she drove me. I fixed the flat, no big deal.

Philip Pape: 34:10

But again you're right, you have to communicate. So that's important. It is, it's very important. Yeah, I want to address the kind of the other extreme of this, which is you alluded to your bodybuilding experience in the past and getting on stage Like what's the uncomfortable truth that people have to know for something like that? I mean, you know, getting shredded, whatever, even if they don't want to go on stage, but they want this quote unquote extreme level of fitness that most people, you know, they don't want to hear it, they don't want to know if they need to know it because you've been through there and they need to reconcile with that, so that maybe that's not the goal that they really want, or maybe it is it is the only goal, okay, if you want to get show ready, stage ready and you want to have a chance at at winning, so there's.

Kevin Palmieri: 34:50

So this is something I always say too. I think one of the most dangerous things in the world is seeing somebody on stage that and I'm putting this in quotes for those just listening that doesn't look like they belong on stage, when in reality they lost 150 pounds to have the confidence to step on stage. Good for you, that's potentially a different story, but if you're going on stage with the intentions of winning for me, I traded in everything else. I traded in. My mental health went absolutely down the can. I already had some mental health stuff. So it wasn't just that. My relationship was terrible and I had a super supportive partner, but I just had nothing to give. I was anxious all the time. I was a control freak because I had to know when can I get my next meal? Is there a microwave there? People didn't like me very much because we went to weddings and I brought my meals.

Kevin Palmieri: 35:42

People don't like that when you don't eat the $200 meal that they paid for understandably so yes I just think, unfortunately and maybe not everybody, but unfortunately I think it turns you into a relatively selfish human being, because not only are you not getting almost any of your dietary needs met, but you're quite literally putting your body into a state of flea, like your body needs more than you're giving it all the time.

Kevin Palmieri: 36:09

Yeah, your, your body's just trying to survive, so you're probably not going to be the best partner and and all that. I've met some bodybuilders who it almost doesn't even seem to affect. They're just like, they're just totally normal. But I think they're just cut from a different cloth. That maybe I wasn't. So it's that it's. I think it's more mental than it is physical. The physical part wasn't. Honestly, it wasn't that bad. The mental piece of the, of thinking of okay, it's 148 in 12 minutes I can eat. How many grams of rice do I have? How many grams of egg whites do I have? That is just. It's very, very, very constricting.

Kevin Palmieri: 36:48

And I definitely afterwards had a mild eating disorder for a couple months and I didn't realize it at the time, but my hormones were so messed up. I remember one day I was traveling for work and we went out to get breakfast and I was like, oh, it's nice. This is probably two weeks after my show and I got. I said, is there any way you can do a banana split? And they're like it's like eight o'clock, sir, can you? Maybe you can just put them on the pancakes. I'm like, yeah, we can do that for you, and I ate so much. I almost couldn't go to work that day because of how bad it was. So, yeah, there's a downside of getting to that point and I would really sit down and and get familiar with what you might have to give up. There's a lot of comfort that you have to give up to get that level of shredded and, honestly, it's not.

Lisa: 37:36

It's not worth it for 99.9 percent of people yeah hi, my name is l and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach, philip Pate. With his coaching I have lost 17 pounds. He helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful little app called Macrofactor. I got that part of my nutrition figured out. Along with that is the movement part of nutrition. There's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight. When it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense.

Lisa: 38:15

And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide and that really helped me, so thank you.

Philip Pape: 38:23

Yeah, that's the key. I mean, I've had a few other guests on the show or coaches in that space and it's the same thing. It's a very cautious lens on. First you need to be filtered out and be the 0.1% remaining who it's truly appropriate for, and then you have to filter out any obsessions, eating disorders and you get to the very, very tiny slice and you know again. I've met folks like Dr Eric Helms. We all know him and he's been successful as a natural bodybuilder, but he has a mental fortitude like no other you know he has a very special and it's like all it's his profession.

Philip Pape: 38:53

You know he studies it, so there's there's kind of an alignment there. Yeah, I think it's important for people to know that, because even what I've seen from clients and myself and you've probably experienced this is even a mild level of dieting and trying to get lean starts to pressure you toward that direction just a bit and you got to question why you're doing this. You really have to question it, because you can get to a plenty good enough physique, well above that point, without having to push it. Yeah, um, it's super important. I mean, I just went back to a bulking phase cause I'm like, I'm done, like this dieting thing I never, I never super enjoy it.

Philip Pape: 39:29

You know it works. You know how to do it. It's mental, Like you said, it's all mental. It's a body doesn't want to be there.

Kevin Palmieri: 39:34

Do you?

Philip Pape: 39:35

struggle with bulking. Do I struggle with bulking? Yeah, do you why? Because I'm a skinny, skinny guy.

Kevin Palmieri: 39:41

No, no, no, no. I mean mentally. Do you struggle with it mentally?

Philip Pape: 39:43

Yeah, no, I love bulking, do you? Do you? Have you found that side? I don't like it, you don't like it. No, I.

Kevin Palmieri: 40:00

Tell me more about and I don't mean it in that way. I was always the guy who had abs, even in high school. I was telling my wife this the other day. I said in high school on the baseball forums, people were accusing me of steroids in high school and I didn't know what the hell I was doing when I was exercising. I had no clue. I have really good genetics, so I've kind of always had abs and for me abs equal successful, that's what everybody's going for. So there's that piece of me right now who I'm bulking. I was 182 today and as I creep towards 185 at five foot six, five foot five, depending on the day, I start to look more and more like a meatball. And there's a piece of me that doesn't like that very much when I'm used to being shredded and vascular and all that. So I understand both. Yeah, alan, my business partner, six foot two, tall and lanky his words, not mine. He doesn't like being lean because for him it reminds him of when he was tall and lanky.

Philip Pape: 40:54

It's very interesting. It's very interesting because, yeah, these thoughts go through my head all the time and again. Anybody following a plan to change a body composition has to wrestle with both sides of the equation. I actually thought you were originally talking about the discomfort of the food side of things, but you're talking about getting fluffy. I actually did a whole podcast episode like why I'm getting fluffy before I get jacked, or something like that. Like a while back, uh, laying it out there because you're right, you have to embrace the other positives about getting bigger and forget that abs are even a, are even, are even a measure. They're not because the abs are gone pretty quickly.

Kevin Palmieri: 41:32

Yeah, and it's not about now, it's about next year.

Philip Pape: 41:37

Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri: 41:37

It's like right, what you're doing right now is not about right now, it's about next year, when yeah, it's like right, what you're doing right now is not about right now, it's about next year, when you do whatever you decide to do. That's what I keep telling myself. I don't just go lift heavy and eat food and stay high on protein and build muscle and then, when you diet down what you do every year, you'll look better. It just doesn't feel like it yet.

Philip Pape: 41:58

Yeah, there's different standards of look, of course, and also if you're in a relationship or what your goals are in life. I'm not trying to chase girls or anything. I've got my, my wife loves me whatever I look like, and some women like bigger guys too. But you know, two more thoughts come to mind on that.

Philip Pape: 42:13

One is that the when you look at bigger guys like powerlifters I'll say modern day powerlifters, not classic powerlifters who really packed on the weight there's this thought that if you can really pack on that muscle and train at that level for a long time and not even worry about cutting, you can vastly change your body composition and just be this bigger, leaner guy and then cut down to much higher weight and have abs, but you're the big, stocky, bulky with muscle type of guy. It takes time though. It takes like a good three to six years probably at least, of solid training to get there. The other thing is just recently the bulking recommendations were updated based on the science, like three new studies that came out that show that we can put on a lot more lean tissue than we thought at an aggressive rate of bulking. So you're going to have a bunch of people dreamer bulking now who maybe go too aggressive, and then they experience what you're talking about.

Kevin Palmieri: 43:07

I'm trying to do like a quarter pound a week Quarter pound a week, which is definitely on the lean end.

Philip Pape: 43:14

Yeah.

Kevin Palmieri: 43:15

I'm trying to do it relative and again, I know my body very well. There's a lot of stuff that goes into it. I respond really well to just a little bit of extra food because I'm so used to being in a deficit. I never bulked before.

Philip Pape: 43:30

I think I bulked one time in my life I didn't know what I was doing. Oh, even as a bodybuilder, you didn't go through an off season to do that. That was the first time.

Kevin Palmieri: 43:37

I ever bulked. I see Yep to do that. That was the first time I ever bolt. I see Yep, I wasn't show ready before I started, but I already had a six pack. I was in really good shape. Then I went and got a coach. Then I dieted down. I lost like 15 pounds and I lost a ton of muscle. Then I bolt and I was like, whoa, this is interesting, I'm super strong and I still have abs, somehow. That was so. That's, it's relatively new. I mean, that was only about six or seven years ago and yeah, and you know what people?

Philip Pape: 44:05

people have never experienced a bulk in that stand. A lot of women fall in that category, just to be totally honest, you've seen it with clients.

Philip Pape: 44:11

I'm of the mind now to encourage more and more folks to be open to it, and if you could time it right, you know, during the winter for example, yeah, it helps. But what I think a lot of people do is they cycle, they cut in bulk too frequently and it just they kind of don't go anywhere and that's almost like staying at your level five. When you're trying to get a level 10, you have to push through something. So actually, good segue to like how do you do that? If you're now you've reached some type of level 10, let's say you got your initial goal in your first year or two of training Does that become your new level five? How do we reassess?

Kevin Palmieri: 44:45

our goals to really keep pushing where we want to go. Yeah, I think as you become more competent, you become less okay with okay. So I think as you become more competent and you see what you're capable of, your average just increases. But I also think you and here's the this is why it's layered but I also think you're willing to let yourself go below your standard, because you also know you can get back above it. There's something about having the belief to essentially look to a degree the way you want. If you have the awareness, you have the work ethic and you have the strategy, it's way easier to do what we're talking about specifically when it comes to bulking. But when you feel like you're in control, I think that's when you can set another goal.

Kevin Palmieri: 45:34

It's almost like in the beginning. The first time I ever got in a car with my mom, I remember thinking to myself how do you drive the car so well? This seems impossible. Like I don't understand. I have taken this for granted. Eventually I got my license and I became a good driver and then I was able to do things that I could never do, like I could talk on the phone. I'm not saying to do this, but I could talk on the phone and drive. Cool, that became sustainable. I told my wife.

Kevin Palmieri: 45:58

Eventually I want to learn how to drift cars. That is something I've always wanted to do. Then that will become sustainable for me and it won't be that much of a challenge anymore. So me driving in a fast car might be boring Again maybe not the best example, but trying to create visualization with it. So, yeah, that as you become more competent, I think that you become in more control and when you have more belief, you're able to take bigger chances. Yeah, so if you have a level seven belief seven out of 10, and your own unique ability to create the physique you want, you might set a level nine goal, which for you is I'm going to look the best I ever have and maybe I'm ready to do a photo shoot or something. So yeah, I think as you build belief, your ability to set goals increases, because it's not as scary as it used to be. That's huge.

Philip Pape: 46:46

That's huge, and you can build that belief even with a fairly sustainable level of maintenance. Where I'm going with that is when somebody learns that they can control their body composition, even if they don't lose or gain. Even that's powerful, because so many people feel like they have no control at all. Right, like they just I'm going to gain weight constantly because age and everything else. I think that's super powerful. And I'm also thinking of self-determination theory, which has three components agency right, the ability to make your own choice. Relatedness like there's community. And competence right, and that's what you're getting at. Is that confidence that if I do this input, I'm going to produce this output. I've done it, so now I can go this other direction. That's kind of crazy to most people, like bulking. It's exactly what I'm thinking. I'm like I can gain 30 pounds knowing I could lose 40 if I had to. Yeah, so super powerful and liberating.

Kevin Palmieri: 47:33

I can imagine, like you said, I think for females specifically, bulking is hard, because if you don't and again, I'm not saying this, this is a fact but if you don't know how you got to where you got in terms of your leanness and the way your figure is, the last thing you want to do is lose that, because if it seems like it happened by accident, the last thing you're going to do is do something to the opposite front on purpose. Yes, so it makes it makes. It makes total sense.

Philip Pape: 47:58

I can completely understand if you, if you could dip your toes a little bit into the fat loss side of the equation, be like okay, I see how this works, but I don't like dieting, so let's, we've proven it.

Lisa: 48:07

Now let's go the other way Of course that happens a lot.

Philip Pape: 48:10

That happens a lot. You know, my goal with every client is to convince them to stop dieting after they start dieting.

Kevin Palmieri: 48:16

I respect it and you have. You have far more experience and feet on the ground in that than I do, for sure.

Philip Pape: 48:23

Oh man, this has been great. This has been a fun conversation, like pulling on so many threads for folks.

Kevin Palmieri: 48:27

I've enjoyed it.

Philip Pape: 48:28

I learned a lot. It's been fun. So you know what's coming my. My last question is just is there a question you wish I had asked that we didn't cover today, and if so, what would your answer be?

Kevin Palmieri: 48:37

Yeah. What is the honest truth about consistency that you're afraid to share but you think would be valuable? That would be the question. So when I was messing up in the gym and I wasn't very consistent for lack of better phrasing I did what we call the $100 habit. I went to my wife and I gave her a $100 bill and I said if I don't go to the gym for seven days in a row, I want you to rip this up in front of me. And she said there's no way I'm going to do that. And I said it's already done in my head. The pain of me seeing you rip up $100 in front of me is far greater than the pain of me going to the gym for the next seven days. It worked so well. If I just had we, it's a commitment device. That's what it's called. It's called commitment device. If I always had a commitment device, I would never miss.

Kevin Palmieri: 49:27

I think we're afraid to put ourselves under that pressure though I'm not saying you should necessarily but the reason when you're doing a bodybuilding show you don't miss is because you know you're getting on stage in your undies and you're either going to suffer now or you're going to get on stage and say, darn, I really, I really wish this went differently. So creating some level of necessity and some level of pressure could be positive. Just make sure you're doing it in the right amount, based on where you are. I knew I could go to the gym seven times. It's six minutes away. I make my own schedule. Get your ass together, kev. For you it might be three times, it might be one time, it might be if I don't pull my workout clothes out of the basement, like I've been saying I'm going to do.

Kevin Palmieri: 50:10

We don't get to go on date night this week, something like that right or if I don't get my running shoes out, I'm going to have to donate to a cause I don't believe in. That's one that works really, really, really well. So, yeah, something like that is usually pretty beneficial.

Philip Pape: 50:24

That's a recurring theme actually that I've heard from experts who talk about, you know, motivation being driven by more commitment than anything else, some sort of commitment, and I was just thinking, like this bulking phase I'm going through, I really want to put together a whole story and videos and show that I got from here to there and pushed all my lifts up and it's kind of a commitment to. I've got to stick with this crazy volume on my legs that is killing me to get there. Okay, cause I know so. Anyway, if you're listening, like, take what Kevin's saying and come up with a commitment device. It could be a date on the calendar that something's happening and there's no judgment, right. I mean it could be going to the beach and wanting to look good on the beach. It could be a wedding photo shoot or, like you said, any day-to-day, week-to-week commitment. So good, one man.

Philip Pape: 51:10

I appreciate it very much. I appreciate it very much. All right, man. So it's been a lot of fun, as always. I want people to be able to find you the best place. I know you're all over the place. I'll give them your private cell phone and they can call you.

Lisa: 51:21

But give me a reality.

Philip Pape: 51:23

Where do you want them to reach out?

Kevin Palmieri: 51:24

to. I just give out my email. My email is Kevin at next level universe dot com. If you have questions about anything, feel free to to reach out. Anything I could do to add value I yeah, I don't know what specifically it would be, because you know Philip's the the fitness engineer for sure. But you want to talk about podcasting or mindset or habits, whatever, I'm happy, I'm always a message away.

Philip Pape: 51:46

I'd love to chat Kevin's modest. He uh undersells himself, but I'll sell. I'll sell him for you guys. He's a great guy. He's a kind person too, A very good person, Um, and I genuinely mean that. So great to know you, Great to have you on here. I'm so glad we did this. Thanks for coming on Like.

Kevin Palmieri: 52:01

I appreciate you having me You're wonderful and anything I can do to add value, you know I'm always down. Talk soon, buddy.

The #1 Reason to Eat More Carbs (Material Elasticity) | Ep 249

If you've been told that protein is all you need to protect your hard-earned muscle mass, you're missing a crucial piece of the muscle-building puzzle.

Learn how the engineering concept of Material Elasticity reveals the hidden superpower of carbs!
 
The often-vilified carbohydrate macro has a superpower that prevents muscle breakdown, especially during fat loss.

Whether you're building muscle or trying to get lean, understanding this overlooked benefit of carbs will transform your nutrition approach forever.

To optimize your carb intake for maximum muscle growth, download my recently updated (and always free) Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint or go to witsandweights.com/free

Main Takeaways:

• How carbs protect muscle mass (like the Robin to protein's Batman)

• Why you WANT spikes in insulin if you lift weights

• When to eat carbs to maximize their effects for muscle

• The true effects of low-carb and keto diets on muscle

Why Carbs Are Your Secret Weapon Against Muscle Loss (Anti-Catabolic Science)

If you've fallen for the "carbs are bad" myth or think protein is all you need for muscle preservation, you're missing out on one of the most powerful tools in your nutrition arsenal. Let's use engineering principles to understand why carbs might be exactly what you need for better muscle retention and faster recovery.

The Hidden Power of Carbohydrates for Muscle Preservation

Most people understand that carbs fuel performance and provide energy. But there's a crucial mechanism that rarely gets discussed: their anti-catabolic effects. Using the engineering concept of material elasticity, we can better understand how carbs protect our muscles from breakdown.

Understanding Material Elasticity in Muscle Preservation

How Engineering Principles Apply to Muscle Protection

Just like a metal spring can compress under force and return to its original shape, our muscles need to maintain their structure despite constant stress. This ability to withstand stress without permanent deformation is crucial for muscle preservation.

The Three Ways Carbs Shield Your Muscles

1. Insulin's Anti-Catabolic Effect: When you eat carbs, they trigger insulin release, which blocks protein breakdown pathways

2. Protein-Sparing Benefits: Adequate carbs prevent your body from converting amino acids into glucose through gluconeogenesis

3. Glycogen's Protective Role: Full glycogen stores reduce cortisol and other catabolic hormones

Strategic Carb Implementation for Maximum Muscle Protection

Optimal Timing Strategies

• Prioritize carbs around training sessions

• Maintain baseline carbs even on rest days

• Consider increasing carbs during fat loss phases

• Don't sacrifice carbs for excessive protein

Why Low-Carb Approaches Can Backfire

When you eliminate carbs, you remove your body's primary defense against muscle breakdown. This is especially problematic during calorie deficits, where muscle preservation becomes even more critical.

Practical Applications for Your Training

Four Key Implementation Strategies

1. Training Day Focus: Concentrate up to half your daily carbs around workouts

2. Recovery Support: Keep carbs consistent on rest days for optimal recovery

3. Fat Loss Phases: Don't cut carbs too low - they're crucial for muscle retention

4. Balanced Approach: Remember that both protein AND carbs play vital roles

Engineering Your Nutrition Plan

Think of carbs as structural support for your muscles. Just as engineers design materials with both strength and elasticity in mind, your nutrition plan needs to address both muscle building (through protein) and muscle preservation (through strategic carb intake).

The Bottom Line on Carbs and Muscle

Carbohydrates aren't just fuel - they're a crucial tool for protecting your hard-earned muscle mass. By understanding their anti-catabolic effects, you can make more informed decisions about your nutrition, whether you're building muscle or trying to get lean.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been told that protein is all you need to protect your hard-earned muscle mass, or that carbs just provide energy and performance and you can cut them out without consequences, I think you're missing a crucial piece of the larger muscle-building puzzle. Today, I'm revealing the number one reason to eat more carbs, and it's not what most people think. Using an engineering concept called material elasticity, I'll show you how carbs can do this one amazing thing. That is perhaps its biggest superpower. If you care about building muscle and fat loss, welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring why carbs those beautiful carbs might be the most underrated nutrients for muscle preservation, and how understanding their anti-catabolic effects we're going to define that term in a second could transform your approach to building muscle and losing fat. Before we get into that, I have just released my new and improved muscle building nutrition blueprint totally free. It's a guide that I created maybe a year or two ago after one of my muscle building phases, and I've since upgraded it and updated it based on the latest bulking recommendations according to the scientific literature. It shows you exactly how to use carbs strategically to bulk at the optimal rate and maximize your gains, which will go perfectly well with this episode. So to download your free copy, just go to witsandweightscom slash free, or click the link in the show notes. Again, that's my muscle building nutrition blueprint. It lays everything out from start to finish, with examples of setting up your muscle building phase. Go to witsandweightscom slash free, or click the link in my show notes. So let's start with the topic today, which is how material elasticity helps us understand muscle breakdown. But, more importantly, it's why you should not be afraid of carbs and a reason that is underrated or even not well known for why you probably want to eat more carbs. And when I say carbs, I'm talking about carbohydrates, I'm talking about a macro that covers a vast amount of food sources, and there is a powerful effect that carbs have that people don't talk about. They do talk about its source of insulin response and glucose for the muscles. They talk about it for performance and recovery. They talk about it for having a more variety of foods and fiber-containing foods with nutrients and plants and all that fun stuff. But there's one thing that gets talked about not as much and we're going to get into that and then, finally, I'm going to take that information and give you some strategies so you can apply that to your nutrition plan. So let's talk about the engineering concept and why that's important to what we're talking about today.

Philip Pape: 3:13

There's something called elasticity. Elasticity you might have heard it in the context of your brain development, for example. You might have heard it in terms of materials like a rubber band. Have heard it in terms of materials like a rubber band. Elasticity refers to a material's ability to withstand stress without getting deformed, right, without get permanently altered. So think about a metal spring. It can compress under force, but then it returns to its original shape, as long as you don't quote, pass its elastic limit. And as a child, I really loved my pogo stick yes, I am that level nerd and that ability to come back to its original shape is the thing that allowed you to spring up into the air.

Philip Pape: 3:52

So our muscles face similar stresses during training, during strength training, but also when you're dieting, because of all the shuttling of resources and your body trying to stay in homeostasis. Your muscles need to maintain their structure despite the constant breakdown and rebuilding of tissue. Right, that's what's happening in our body. We're always breaking stuff down. We're breaking muscle mass down, for example, and we're rebuilding it. And this is where most people, I'll say, not necessarily get it wrong, but they kind of oversimplify and they miss part of the picture. They focus solely on protein for building muscle, forgetting about the breakdown side of the equation. Preventing breakdown it's great to ramp up your ability to add new tissue, but if the other side of the equation is outpacing that, or at least keeping up with it in terms of breaking down tissue, you're going to have a real problem, right? Because at best you might be able to preserve muscle, um, and at worst you might lose muscle.

Philip Pape: 4:51

So here's where carbohydrates become so so crucial and why I am, uh, totally in love. I have a love fest with carbs to the point where that is my um, happiest source of YouTube trolls when this stuff goes YouTube and many of you are listening on audio. But go there and just type in carbs to my YouTube channel and find one of the episodes about carbs and just look at the comments. Okay, people have a very emotional attachment to carbs. If you are listening to me right now, I'm going to be giving you tons of permission to just eat the heck out of your carbs to the level that you need, to the level that supports you and to the level that you want, and not worry about demonizing them anymore.

Philip Pape: 5:28

Carbs don't cause you to get fat or any of the other myths that have been perpetuated. Carbs are incredible. They're supportive. There's nothing negative about them. What's negative is over-consuming food, right, just over-consuming to the point of excess, and it has nothing to do with carbs. What's negative is being sedentary. What's negative is not training. So that was my side rant.

Philip Pape: 5:48

But when you eat carbs, they trigger insulin release. Oh no insulin. Oh yes insulin. We love that because insulin is a powerful anti-catabolic hormone. What does that mean? Anti-catabolic means anti-breakdown. Okay, trigger insulin. Insulin is an anti-catabolic hormone. We love insulin if we are training, if we're active and we're trying to build muscle.

Philip Pape: 6:17

Just like a well-engineered material needs the support to maintain its elastic properties, your muscles need adequate carbs to prevent breakdown and retain their properties. You've built them up. You've gone to the gym, you've taken so much time to give them the TLC right. You're doing those heavy squats that you may not be the biggest fan of, but you know how effective and powerful they are and helpful. And you've gone through all that work. So why do you want to give it up by not supporting, by allowing them to get broken down right? So let me break down the three main ways that carbs protect your muscles. First, insulin blocks protein breakdown pathways. When insulin is elevated from eating carbs, it literally shuts down the mechanisms that would otherwise break down muscle tissue, so important. This is why we need to flip the frame on insulin as not a bad thing, but a very good thing that we take advantage of. Second, carbs spare protein. When you don't have adequate carbs, your body converts amino acids into glucose through gluconeogenesis, literally breaking down muscle tissue for energy.

Philip Pape: 7:27

Now, I don't want to overstate this or make this a fear monger type of thing. Like well, so does that mean I have to have like 400 grams of carbs or else my protein starts getting broken down? No, quite the opposite. It's when carbs are just abysmally low that this can be a problem, and usually it's more of a problem in a dieting phase when just overall energy is low. When you are eating in a surplus, there's a lot more wiggle room Like you can have. You can jack up your protein and have moderate carbs. You can jack up your carbs with moderate protein. There is a lot of wiggle room. So I'm not saying you have to like stuff yourself with carbs, but I'm saying when the carbs go very low, that's when the issues start to happen.

Philip Pape: 8:04

Third is that carbs replenish glycogen, which has its own anti-catabolic effects, because full glycogen stores send a signal that reduce your cortisol and other catabolic hormones. Again, it's your body saying, hey, I'm in a good state here, I've got enough energy, even though you're slamming the heck out of these muscles through your lifting, I'm good because you gave me all those carbs. So that is why low-carb diets, keto diets, often lead to faster muscle loss in a calorie deficit and much lower muscle gain in a calorie surplus. Part of it is because you're removing your body's primary defense against muscle breakdown by keeping those carbs so low. It's a matter of degrees. Could you build muscle or prevent muscle breakdown on low carbs? Yes, is it harder? Yes, and that's kind of the thing I'm saying. Why make it harder, unless you have to for some reason or you want to, but if someone's telling you you need to? That's the problem that I have in the industry with when we talk about spreading misinformation. So how do we apply this right?

Philip Pape: 9:13

I want to give you four practical strategies, super simple. First, prioritize carbs around your training. This is one of the best things you can do. It creates an immediate anti-catabolic environment when your muscles need it most, so as much as half of your carbs might be around your training. The lower calories you're on, the more crucial. This is to do to the point where, if you're on a very severe deficit, almost all your carbs might be around your training. Okay, so just keep that in mind. When you're in a surplus, you know you probably have a lot of carbs coming in anyway. If you're in a balanced diet, so you still want carbs around your workout, but it's going to be a smaller percentage, okay.

Philip Pape: 9:49

Second, maintain baseline carbs, even on rest days. I'm not a big fan of calorie cycling, so the way I like to frame it is if you think it's super helpful to jack up your carbs on training days, you're now taking away from your rest days when the recovery occurs, when the muscle breakdown would occur. So think about that. It's not just that you need your carbs during the training session, you also need them for the anti-catabolic environment outside your training session, and so I like to distribute carbs fairly evenly day to day Now, on non-training days, when you eat those carbs, is less important. That's the main difference, all right.

Philip Pape: 10:30

Third, you can increase your carbs during fat loss. Now, this might sound counterintuitive because the calories are low, the protein is high and don't carbs, by definition, come down. Yes, but I have found with many clients who really like their protein and have become quite consistent, their protein actually ends up being maybe even higher than they need and it sacrifices carbs, or their fats are higher and it sacrifices carbs. And what we do is we tweak it. We say, all right, let's drop protein by 20 grams and increase your carbs by 20 grams, and let's shuttle those carbs right before your workout. And boom, all of a sudden, more energy in their workout. They feel better, they don't get shaky, they don't get um, you know, they don't feel winded or wiped after the workout. And it just changes the whole equation from feeling kind of miserable and like am I doing the right thing? To hey, I can get through this, no problem, like I've got the energy to go. To hey, I can get through this, no problem, like I've got the energy to go.

Philip Pape: 11:23

So think about whether your carbs are actually too low, even though you are trying to anchor your protein, there could be a little trade-off that you can make, and it might be with the fats, right, like maybe your fat is too high and you can bring that down and give it to carbs, all right. Fourth strategy Don't fall for the protein only advice, like there are some people that all they talk about is protein, or protein and fiber, and I've done that sometimes just because people don't get enough. And, of course, protein is crucial to build muscle, but carbs play an equally important role in preventing the breakdown and that's the message I want you to take home today. All right, so here's something fascinating, right To tie all this together. That ties it back to our concept from engineering.

Philip Pape: 12:05

When we design materials to withstand stress, we don't just think about the strength, but on the resilience of the material, the plasticity right of the material, the elasticity, its ability to resist being deformed, because if it's too hard it's just going to break, but if it has a little bit of give in it, right, it won't. So in a similar way, building muscle is not just making this scaffolding out of protein and just focusing on one side of the equation. It's creating the overall environment that prevents the breakdown and resilience and elasticity by focusing on the carb side as well, the anti-catabolic side, and I see this all the time with clients who will get into a fat loss phase and will start to see a little bit of lean mass loss, which is, it's, very unlikely the way we have it set up. But if you're losing strength rapidly and it's faster than you expect, it could be because the carbs are too low, right. And you're like why is that? Well, increase the carb intake, keep the calories the same, right. So you're gonna make a trade-off and support yourself in the gym. What happens? Well, now you can lift a few more reps, or you can have that extra reserve to really hit the maximal strength on your lifts. And now you're not gonna lose the strength as quickly, if at all, for a while at least, right. And that could accelerate the fat loss, because now you're supporting your metabolism and you're supporting your muscle. You're giving yourself the maximum training stimulus. Isn't that cool Like that? That's the interesting part about it is that increasing carbs during fat loss could improve your fat loss, all right.

Philip Pape: 13:41

So, as we wrap up, let's recap again why carbs are your muscle's best friend, all right. Number one they trigger insulin, which is anti-catabolic. Number two, they prevent protein breakdown that would otherwise occur through gluconeogenesis. Three, they maintain glycogen stores that protect your muscle. And then, fourth, they create an optimal environment, both in fat loss and muscle building, to preserve and build muscle.

Philip Pape: 14:07

So the next time anyone out there a fitfluencer, someone you follow on YouTube wherever says, cut carbs and you'll get better results, remember that you might be sacrificing a very, very powerful tool for actually preserving or building that muscle. All right, so if you want to put all this into action and get some exact numbers and rates for you, download my new and improved muscle building nutrition blueprint. Go to witsandweightscom, click the link in the show notes and I'll show you exactly how to implement all of the nutrition strategies to build muscle. Stay lean, do it at the right rate, not gain too much fat and uh, and be totally strong. Jacked lean, tone whatever word you're going for. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember understanding the science behind carbs can unlock your results. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening, as always, to wits and weights, and I'll talk to you next time.

How Social Media and TikTok Are Putting Your Health At Risk | Ep 248

Try our new FREE calculators for Energy Expenditure (TDEE) for fat loss and muscle building, body fat percentage, and more at witsandweights.com/calculators

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Is mindless phone scrolling harming your health? Could social media platforms be rewiring your brain against your fitness progress? How can you turn your smartphone into a fitness ally instead of an enemy?

Philip (@witsandweights) ventures into the hidden ways social media impacts your health, from disrupted sleep and increased cortisol to its effects on your posture, hunger hormones, and workout recovery. Using shocking research-based and scientific studies, Philip lays out a roadmap to reclaim your attention and use your phone as a powerful fitness tool.

Discover strategies to limit distractions, curate your content, and even integrate social media use with mindful habits. With the right approach, technology can be harnessed as a tool for empowerment, enabling you to navigate the digital world effectively and reach your desired fitness outcomes.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:34 New Calorie intake body fat calculators
2:16 Social media addiction and sleep disruption
6:28 How scrolling affects hunger hormones and mindless eating
8:23 Understanding “Tech neck” and NEAT deficit
11:47 Social media’s impact on workout focus and performance
14:01 Toxic comparison syndrome and fitness misinformation
18:16 Turning your phone into a tool for education and education
22:33 Actionable tips: batching, environment design, pattern interrupts, and curating content
28:14 Free calculators for nutrition, physique, and more!
29:42 Outro

Episode resources:

• Try our new FREE calculators for Energy Expenditure (TDEE) for fat loss and muscle building, body fat percentage, and more at witsandweights.com/calculators

The Dark Side of Social Media: How Your Phone Is Sabotaging Your Health and Fitness

Ever noticed how a quick check of Instagram between sets turns into 15 minutes of mindless scrolling? You're not alone. Recently uncovered documents show TikTok users can become addicted after just 35 minutes of use. That's less time than your average workout – and the implications for your health and fitness goals are more serious than you might think.

The Science Behind Social Media's Health Impact

Disrupted Sleep Chemistry

Recent research from the Sleep Foundation reveals that nighttime social media use suppresses melatonin production for twice as long as regular screen time. This isn't just about feeling tired – melatonin plays a crucial role in muscle recovery and fat loss. When you scroll before bed, you're actively working against your body's repair processes.

Hormonal Havoc

Every notification triggers a small stress response, elevating cortisol levels throughout the day. This chronic elevation interferes with:

• Protein synthesis

• Fat storage patterns

• Immune system function

• Recovery between training sessions

The NEAT Deficit

Studies show high social media users take 40% fewer steps daily compared to moderate users. This reduction in Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT) significantly impacts your daily calorie burn and body composition goals.

Physical Consequences for Your Training

Compromised Movement Patterns

That "tech neck" from scrolling isn't just uncomfortable – it creates a cascade of muscular compensations affecting:

• Shoulder mobility

• Squat form

• Overall posture

• Training performance

Reduced Focus and Force Production

Heavy social media users demonstrate decreased max force production during resistance training. Your mind is still processing that scrolling even as you're trying to focus on your lifts.

The Psychological Impact

Rewired Reward Pathways

New research in Nature shows short-form video content literally reshapes your brain's reward pathways, making it harder to:

• Focus on long-term goals

• Maintain consistent habits

• Find satisfaction in gradual progress

The Comparison Trap

The fitness industry on social media creates what researchers call "toxic comparison syndrome" through:

• Unrealistic transformations

• Misleading before/afters

• Manipulated images

• Sponsored content disguised as results

Taking Back Control

Rather than deleting all your apps, focus on making technology work for you:

Strategic Implementation

1. Set specific times for social media use

2. Move apps off your home screen

3. Turn off notifications

4. Use built-in app limits

Pattern Interrupts

Before opening any social media app, ask yourself:

• What am I looking for?

• Is this purposeful or mindless?

• Could this time be better spent?

Content Curation

Be ruthless about who you follow. If someone's content makes you feel worse about your progress, unfollow immediately – regardless of their popularity.

The Power of Redirection

Transform your phone from a distraction into a tool for progress:

• Track workouts systematically

• Log nutrition data

• Monitor progress metrics

• Learn from verified experts

• Record and analyze form

Remember: Your phone isn't inherently your enemy – it's simply a tool. Its impact depends entirely on how you use it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're like most people, you check your phone over a hundred times a day, spending hours mindlessly scrolling through social media feeds and short form videos. You know it's probably not healthy, but here's what you might not realize this habit is actively working against your fitness goals in ways that go far beyond just wasting time. Today, we're exposing the science behind how platforms like TikTok and Instagram are damaging your health from disrupting your sleep chemistry and hormone production to destroying your ability to build and maintain lean muscle mass. You'll discover the shocking new research about how quickly these apps can alter your brain function and, more importantly, how to reclaim control of your attention and put that phone time to work for your fitness goals instead of against them. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and I want to lay out for you a familiar scenario. Let's say you grab your phone to do something helpful, like set up your next workout or log your food, but before you know it, you're 30 minutes deep into fitness influencer content on Instagram or TikTok. That's probably making you feel worse about your own progress, not to mention wasting time. Now. If that sounds familiar, stick around, because today I'm discussing how social media, especially the addictive short form video platforms, isn't just distracting you. It is actively sabotaging your health and physique goals through multiple mechanisms.

Philip Pape: 1:34

Now, real quick, before I get into it, I want to let you know about some brand new calculators that I just added to the website to estimate calorie intake, body fat and more, and, I think, a very smart way to use your smartphone instead of scrolling social media. I spent a lot of time recently putting these together for you. I thought they would be really useful. So just click the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click calculators in the menu to try those out. And each one has an article below it that explains what everything means. So a little bit of education there. And and each one has an article below it that explains what everything means. So a little bit of education there. And I tried to add something unique to the calculators that you won't find in others on the internet. So, again, just click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click calculators in the menu.

Philip Pape: 2:16

All right, let's get into today's topic about social media. Let's start with something that I heard about recently in the news from previously hidden documents from TikTok. Their own research, leaked on the internet, shows that users can become addicted to the platform after viewing just 260 videos. Now that sounds like a lot, but you know how short those are. It only takes 35 minutes of cumulative viewing time. So now think about that.

Philip Pape: 2:45

In less time than it takes to train, to do your workout right, or to eat a meal, or even prepare a meal, these apps like TikTok can fundamentally rewire your brain's reward system. Now, it's probably not a huge surprise. I myself have often been caught, you know, on my phone starting to scroll or even doom scroll, and it's because I started to use my phone for some other reason. Or maybe I'm between my lifts, my sets in the gym, and you just get caught down this rabbit hole and, yeah, it wastes time, but it seems like it's even more insidious than that. We're going to get into that today. The other thing that strikes me as I was putting this together is think about how long it takes to develop a positive habit right, like just going to the gym. We know it takes anywhere from three weeks to even a couple months to really get consistent at something when you apply yourself every day and it starts to compound, whereas the opposite is true here. Something like TikTok or Instagram or wherever you're getting your short form videos are like, immediately giving you that dopamine hit and starting to rewire your brain and make it effectively a quite negative habit very quickly. And the damage that comes from this goes far deeper than just addiction. Right, you've heard that before. Okay, fine, you get addicted.

Philip Pape: 3:58

Recent research from the Sleep Foundation shows that nighttime social media use suppresses melatonin production for twice as long as regular screen time. Now, think about that. It's not just that you're on your screen, right? I always advise folks, especially my clients, to cut out the screen at least a half hour to an hour before try to cut out the blue light. But it's not just the screen time itself, it's specifically, specifically, social media, probably because of the way it stimulates your brain. It's very different. And it's not just about being tired, right, melatonin itself is a crucial hormone for muscle recovery, for fat loss.

Philip Pape: 4:33

All the things that we know good sleep helps with and poor sleep doesn't are tied up in this. And so when you're scrolling social media before bed, you are amplifying that negative, that working against your body's natural repair process. And I'll tell you what for many people, sleep is the missing ingredient when it comes to building muscle, losing fat, eating more food all the things that people struggle with. Now I use a sleep tracking ring. Right, I use an aura ring, like many of you probably use, and it shows you this data and I would encourage you to start looking at that. Go check out my recent episode on sleep metrics. I also have an older episode on HRV specifically. But start to tie that data together with using social media right before you go to bed. I know for a fact that if I'm just like staring at my phone on Instagram or something crazy like that, looking at the silly reels or any silly posts right before bed, I'm just not going to get as high quality sleep, and so you probably aren't either, and the study backs this up. And blue light glasses are great for cutting out blue light, but it isn't the complete solution because it doesn't prevent the stimulation that you get in your brain from the social media.

Philip Pape: 5:37

And then there's the cortisol right Every little notification, every like, every comment that you get. It triggers a small stress response. Now, each individual hit might seem insignificant, but think about how often and frequent. We do this throughout the day and studies show that frequent social media users maintain elevated cortisol levels compared to less frequent users throughout the day, specifically when accounting for the other variables. And so any chronic elevation in our cortisol is going to interfere with things like protein synthesis and belly fat storage. It's going to compromise your immune system, and cortisol is not the boogeyman here. It never is, despite what influencers say. It's that cortisol is an indicator of something else going on, in this case the frequent spike to your stress response.

Philip Pape: 6:24

The other thing is that made me think about stress is when you go to the gym, how many of you are scrolling between your sets. I've done this. I try to use my phone occasionally sparingly in the gym, but I can't. I won't say I can't help myself. I guess that's the addiction part it's more of. I'm trying to be productive and efficient. And now I realized, ah, maybe that's backfiring a little bit on my recovery between my sets, because when you're now kind of keeping that stress level high and you're distracted, you're not mindful, you're not in the moment and physically and physiologically you're potentially not recovering as much, which means you can't get as much out of your workout. So keep all these in mind, because they all play together in what we're trying to do here. Now.

Philip Pape: 7:09

What's particularly concerning is the impact on hunger hormones. Research published in the Journal of Behavioral Addictions found that excessive social media use disrupts both ghrelin and leptin. Those are your hunger and satiety hormones, and this also explains why mindless scrolling leads to mindless eating. That is a thing, but it gets worse because the constant dopamine hits from social media can blunt your body's natural reward response to healthy behaviors, like training, like proper nutrition. And now you're just making it harder to feel and connect mindfully that eating that apple really feels really great. But now you've blunted that natural rewards response because you're getting these hits over here from social media, just like you do from, say, very sugary foods, right, or calorie-dense foods same idea. And all these levels of addictions and brain chemistry all work in a similar way, right, and so you might notice, for example and this is worth documenting that your scrolling, that your social media use, is connected with snacking, with overeating, with overconsumption. Ah, really cool potential correlation there. So pay attention to that.

Philip Pape: 8:12

So now I want to talk about what this is doing to your body directly. We talked about the physiological impacts, the negative impacts, or I'm sorry. We talked about, yeah, the impacts. Now I want to talk about the physical impacts, and you've probably heard of something called tech neck or scroll neck, and that's bad right, but the implications go beyond posture. That's a posture thing, but when you're hunched over your phone, you think about it. You're hunched over your phone, you're not only straining your neck, you're actually creating a bunch of compensations down the chain, muscular compensations that affect everything from your shoulder mobility, your squat form.

Philip Pape: 8:44

Just the other day, we were having a group call in Whitson Weights Physique University which, if you haven't joined, why haven't you? It's the best deal in town. And anyway, in one of our group calls we were talking about how pain in one area of your body, like, for example, golfer's elbow medial epicondylitis it's called right Could be because of your squat grip, could have nothing to do with the elbow itself. Similarly, a back issue could have to do with your neck, and so thinking about posture and then being strong in parts of your body that support your posture, like, for example, your hips and your glutes, is a good way to compensate for this. But being hunched over your phone and thinking about your posture when you use social media could be impacting a lot of physical issues that then cause pain or discomfort when you train, for example, or when you recover from training. So a recent study in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health found that heavy social media users showed significant reductions in thoracic mobility and increased forward head posture.

Philip Pape: 9:46

Right, and this correlates with the hunched over thing and it impacts your ability to perform movements as effectively as you would otherwise, or you have to compensate for them. Think of overhead presses and pull-ups. You're kind of tightened up like a lobster, I want to say. And really we want to have that athletic posture, we want to be open, we want to be strong and neutral to do a lot of these movements. Now, if you strength train, if you go to the gym, fortunately that will help you significantly in these areas, but we don't want to make it worse with the way that we use our phones.

Philip Pape: 10:17

And then, maybe perhaps most concerning I've said that multiple times most concerning today, I guess, is what I call the NEAT deficit. I've said that multiple times. Most concerning today, I guess, is what I call the NEAT deficit. Now, neat, non-exercise activity thermogenesis, that is, all the calories that you burn through your normal daily movement, everything other than structured exercise. Right, you're NEAT walking, for example, fidgeting, doing your chores, et cetera and research shows that high social media users take up to 40% fewer steps per day compared to moderate users. Wow, like, think about that. We're not even talking about different types of jobs or different types of exercise. We're talking about just the fact that you use more social media means you're just going to walk less.

Philip Pape: 10:59

And we know that NEAT is one of the biggest levers we have for the amount of calories we burn and our body composition and how much we can eat. But we also know and I talk about this all the time is one of my favorite hacks to increase steps is if you're going to use social media, go ahead and what they call, I guess, habit stacking there's another name I'm thinking of but go ahead and pace around while you're on social media. I mean, if you're going to be on your phone anyway doing that, you might as well be doing it while walking, and just you could pace around your couch in the house. It doesn't even have to have a long runway. So I guess that's my way of kind of compensating for that statistic is using that time rather than saying just stop using all social media, which is great. We want to reduce it. It's how can we combine a good habit with this maybe not so great habit?

Philip Pape: 11:47

And then, when you go to the gym, when you train, the residual effects of social media affect your performance in some way. We want to be aware of this because studies show again, heavy social media users demonstrate reduced focus. They have reduced attention span, which leads to decreased max force production during resistance training. Can you believe it? It's so amazing how these tie together. Your mind is literally still processing all of that scrolling, even as you're trying to focus on your lifts. So mindfulness is a big element here, and this sounds like a big doom and gloom, but you can see I've dropped a little bit of a hint so far of some things we can do, and we're going to get into more of that in a bit. So keep listening, keep watching. So I guess my challenge to you with that piece, now that I come to think about it, is phone-free training sessions. All right, I have that in my notes here because I didn't want to forget Just not having your phone with you at all. So if you go to the gym, if you could just leave it in your. So that's the physical impacts.

Philip Pape: 12:53

And now let's talk about maybe the most insidious impact, and that is the psychological effects of social media. New research published in the journal Nature shows that frequent exposure to short form video you know what we're talking about. We're talking about reels, which are very popular on TikTok. They're also on Instagram. You even see them on Facebook and other platforms that exposure to these reshapes your brain's reward pathways, reshapes them. We talked about the dopamine hits, but you're actually changing the chemistry of the brain and this makes it harder to focus on long-term goals like building muscle and losing fat and body composition and training consistently and eating consistently and tracking all the things that require consistent effort over time.

Philip Pape: 13:36

And the fitness industry on social media is particularly a problem, right, because we're bombarded with unrealistic transformations, misleading before and after photos I mean the vast majority of before and afters, you see are probably misleading, either because they're not even the actual client of the person or, in a more subtle way, the pictures themselves are taken in a way that's misleading. There's promotions for things like supplements or specific diets, and you're just bombarded with these, and a lot of them are sponsored, a lot of them are paid advertisements, and all of this creates what researchers call toxic comparison syndrome. Instagram, I know, when I go to the search tab, I almost try to avoid that completely. If I look at even one or two people with a decent physique, all of a sudden I see more photos with even more outrageously, you know, quote unquote ideal physiques. And now you're constantly measuring yourself against these heavily filtered, carefully curated, often manipulated images of what look like Greco-Roman gods, right? Men and women. And it actually shifts how we establish a baseline for what even beautiful looks like, which is really sad, right? Because if you just go out into the real world and watch regular people walking around, you're like this is two different planets, right? Two different planets like social versus the real world.

Philip Pape: 15:02

And then there's the gender differences and all this pressure. Now, I'm a man, I'm not a woman. I can't identify with being a woman, but I have probably two-thirds of my clients and listeners are women. You're probably many of you listening right now are women. You know that there are obviously there's double standards, but not only that. There's just such a high level of pressure on social media with women, and we know studies that have looked at the effect on teenagers. I mean you've heard it all before and it's a problem, right.

Philip Pape: 15:27

And then you have the transformation stuff when you see the before and after. Now I follow some very good, very smart, science-based coaches. Some are friends of mine, some have been on the show or vice versa, and some I just follow because they really have their stuff together and they will show transformations and, yes, they'll show before and after photos, but they're very realistic and I almost think are people going to be turned off by the fact that it's not as dramatic as some of the manipulated ones. Right, I always think about that, even with my own clients. Like I hardly ever use transformation photos for that very reason. I'd rather use their own words, you know, video and maybe the numbers as well to show factually what's going on. But that doesn't emotionally connect with people, as showing somebody go from a certain body type to this ripped, shredded, whatever body type, and that's a problem. So always be skeptical when you look at this one, because the real transformations they take time and effort. They're not as visually dramatic as you would expect. But the results to individuals in terms of their energy, their mood, how they feel about themselves, their confidence and, yes, their looks from where they were before are still dramatic, and the fact that we expect so much more based on social media is really a shame.

Philip Pape: 16:44

And then another thing that's concerning is tied to this the spread of fitness misinformation, which is one of the biggest enemies of mine, biggest boogeyman's of mine and I'm not even a big call-out person Like I don't call people out tremendously. I've had folks on the show who do like Dr Spencer Nadolsky and who's you're going to hear about very soon after this episode comes out. And if you look at the content online, you know that the stuff that gets attention, the viral stuff, is usually the really out there information. A recent analysis of fitness-related TikTok content, for example, found that over 80% of viral fitness posts contained at least one significant piece of misinformation. And so this creates what I call analysis paralysis by social media. Right, where you're so overwhelmed with not just information, conflicting and misleading information, and then you struggle to take any action at all. Right, you just binge content, hoping to find something, then something else, then something else. It's all different. Can't tell you how many rapid nutrition assessments I get on, and that is the root cause of their issue. They're like you know what I wanted to set up a call with you because I've listened to your podcast and it seems like you're trying to be objective and reasonable about this stuff and evidence-based, and I'm so confused because there's so much misinformation. What do I do with this, right? So let me ask you the question what do we do about all of this? Now, we've talked about the negatives of social media and I'm not going to tell you to delete all your apps. Right? That's not realistic, that's not necessary. I'm not going to tell you to stop using your phone. Let's talk about evidence-based strategies to make technology work for you. It is a tool. I just simply want it to work for you rather than against you, like with anything else. Let's stop saying not to do certain things. You know. Don't track your food because you can get obsessive. No, how do we use food tracking as a tool that works for us? So how do we use social media that way? First, we need to understand that our phones can be super helpful for progress when you use them intentionally.

Philip Pape: 18:44

I think a smartphone is an amazing invention. I remember back in 2007,. I think I watched it live. I watched the keynote address that Steve Jobs gave when he introduced the iPhone, and I encourage you to go on YouTube and find that, because the audience was just shocked with this massive leap forward in technology that the iPhone presented, because it was the first time we ever combined browsing the web with a phone, with apps and with the capacitive touchscreen. The whole thing. Now it seems like ho-hum, old news, but it was an amazing invention and we know what it's led to. It's led to a completely different phase of technology and history that we're in for, better and worse, like always with technology. So why don't we use them as tools? And so think about tracking your workouts, for example.

Philip Pape: 19:29

Now, if you love to use notebooks, please use a notebook. I know some of you listening and some of my friends are like, oh, here he goes again with the phone. But hey, we all have phones. There are many good apps. By the time this episode comes out, I think, yeah, actually, the very last episode was with the founder of Boost Camp.

Philip Pape: 19:45

Boost Camp is the app that I use and it's a great app because then you could see your PRs, you can see your history, you can see your history, you can automatically program based on a percentage of your max, you can find workout programs, you can track for weeks, months, years. You can look at your volume over time lots of cool things. You can look at your sets per week. I love it for that, because then you can take that data and make informed decisions going forward. Hey, is this level of volume appropriate for me? Is this many days per week giving me the recovery I need? And so on. You could use it definitely for food tracking. So I love macro factor for that purpose calculating your calorie and macro targets, monitoring your biofeedback, your metrics, your photos, like doing those kinds of things.

Philip Pape: 20:26

Also even going on YouTube or, yes, even short form social media, and deliberately looking for educational content that can teach you something, knowing that you're seeking out people that you trust and then kind of building that self-library ecosystem of those people and trying to filter out the rest. And these are active, these are purposeful, these are mindful uses of technology that move you ahead toward your goals rather than mindless consumption that pulls you away from them. And I know we all have different personalities. Everybody has different levels of tracking and data use.

Philip Pape: 21:01

I'm definitely up there in the type A engineering, I love to use data and spreadsheets. A friend of mine, actually, you know we homeschool our kids and he asked what do we? You know how long it takes every day to teach them? And I said well, it takes about probably four to five hours. Now that they're older, it's a few hours less than being in school all day, because we could be a little more efficient with it. And then I sent them my spreadsheet with a histogram of the hours per subject and the hours per day and this whole thing. So that's me, but that's not everyone. Now, if you work with me as a client, I will definitely help you use a lot of these tools and data efficiently, but I tend to do the number crunching myself on the back end.

Jenny: 21:38

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement, for all of our help. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 22:24

Everybody's different. I get it. So find something that works for you. You don't even have to use your phone, right? Nobody's saying you have to.

Philip Pape: 22:31

The next thing that comes to mind is setting for yourself an intentional, specific plan for when and how you're going to use social media. Now you know how, if you have children and they have their phones, there are apps that let you limit screen time, for example. Well, why don't you do that for yourself, instead of random scrolling whenever? Set either dedicated times, just like you might have dedicated meal times to control your calories, for example. Set dedicated times for checking certain apps, ideally not first thing in the morning or right before bed as well. So think about that. And again, if you want to use the technology built in the phone to limit you from doing that, go for it or just do it manually. So it's kind of a batching strategy, is what I'm thinking.

Philip Pape: 23:14

The second thing that comes to mind is your environment design, just like with food, where we want to put snacks high calorie snacks away where we don't see them if they're a craving for us, we want to make it harder to access the apps that suck us in. Right, and you can move them off your home screen. You can hide them in a little group, like on iPhone. You can just shove them in a group so they're not constantly sitting there as an app. Turning off notifications that is huge, like turn off the badge icon, turn off notifications. That way you have to manually go into those things and you'll notice when you do that they're not that important after all, are they. And then you can use the built-in limits, like I mentioned before. One other thing you can do is look at the screen time, and it's kind of funny because for those who use Macrofactor as a food logging app, I will sometimes tell someone who doesn't quote-unquote like to log food because they think it's inconvenient. I'll say, hey, let me show you the screen time that most people average when they use Macrofactor, and it's like four minutes a day. You know what I mean? It's hardly anything. So check out the phone time, the screen time by app, and look at the ones that you spend the most time on. That would be probably the low-hanging fruit to start limiting yourself.

Philip Pape: 24:24

Then there's something called pattern interrupts and what this is is setting up triggers that make you pause before mindless scrolling. Now, I don't have a great example for this. I'm thinking, for example, when you open a social media app, just consciously asking yourself the question what am I looking for here? Right, for example, I'm looking for information about how to do a bench press better, or how do I get more protein, and that's why I'm going to social, as opposed to I'm just going to open my social media app and start scrolling without a plan. So it's really just that pattern interrupt of interrupting your thought and hopefully me saying it right now and putting it in your brain like an earworm you don't know what an earworm is. Look it up, it's a cool term. Like an earworm will make you think next time you open Instagram. Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? I might go in there to check my messages as a batch. I might go in there because I'm looking for a specific person or information, but if I'm simply opening it up because hey, it's there on my home screen and now I just get sucked in, that's a problem.

Philip Pape: 25:30

So have a pattern interrupt, give yourself a reason and then, if you don't have a good one, that will interrupt your thought pattern. So you second guess the need to scroll at all and then curating your content. I mentioned this a little bit before, but be ruthless. Be like a scalpel about who you follow. If someone's content makes you feel worse about yourself or your progress, just unfollow them and stop following them right away, no matter how popular they are. And there's other options in these apps to, like you know, see less of this right, or stop showing this, or hide this for a while. Try those things, because it will mold the algorithm in your benefit.

Philip Pape: 26:07

Now there is a huge positive reframing on all of this, because a lot of this was negative. Some of it was, I know, helpful strategies, but a lot of it was negative. What if the very technology that's designed to hook us can become our most powerful ally in improving what we're trying to do here, which is our health and fitness, our strength, our body composition, fat loss, right? And so, instead of scrolling mindlessly through transformation posts, going through your search tab, imagine using those same moments to track your progress in the gym, the kitchen, looking up recipes, learning how to improve your form, learning about how to program your workouts and so on. Use it as a tool for education and tracking. I want you to think of those two things right now. I want you to think of education and tracking Is the purpose. I'm opening social media right now for education or tracking.

Philip Pape: 26:53

Now, I know there's a social aspect to social media, so I'm not gonna take that away from you. I'm not suggesting that at all. Definitely connecting with people, commenting on posts and stuff go for it. But have that pattern interrupted, asking yourself is this really worth it? Or do I at least want to batch up my social part of social media into like one hour of the day and then during that hour I'm going to walk around as I do it. So I'm going to get a two for one and I'm going to limit my time. Right, take control of it rather than just binge away at random content. And the funny thing is, when I mentioned reward response earlier, the same dopamine you hit you get from like, like or a share. You can get that from actually making progress, from seeing your numbers improve in the gym. Right, the satisfaction of watching a short video, whatever fleeting it is. Channel that into maybe recording your own form, lift and analyzing it. Now, I know that takes more work, so that might not be an equivalent.

Philip Pape: 27:47

But the point is we don't want to fight technology, we don't want to try to be a Luddite. I mean, look, you're using YouTube or a podcast app right now to listen to me, and I hope you find this educational. This is a purposeful use of this. What are you going to do about it? How are you going to redirect this powerful thing to serve your goals? All right, so your phone isn't inherently your enemy, right? It's just a tool. Like any tool. Its impact depends entirely on how you use it. So how are you going to use it right Now? I want to give you one way to do that, a productive way to use your smartphone.

Philip Pape: 28:17

I mentioned this earlier, but just in time for this episode, I added some brand new research-backed calculators to our website, witsandweightscom. Yes, they're mobile friendly and you're going to find a metabolism calculator based on the latest formulas for BMR and TEE that will give you an estimate of your energy expenditure and then the best calorie intake for different fat loss and muscle building goals. Now, this is just a starting estimate, but I think it's pretty cool. It's better than other calculators because of the formulas it uses. I also added a body fat calculator and it lets you put in a target body fat and tells you what it takes to get there, and I think a lot of those calculators don't have that Also a new body roundness index calculator, and this is a better indicator of health and body fat than BMI.

Philip Pape: 29:02

I first heard about it from Dr Jordan Feigenbaum and I decided to look it up. The research is really solid and I created a calculator for it for you. It accounts for your lean mass. So many of us who lift BMI is useless. The vast majority of people who lift that I know, who are in fantastic shape, are either overweight or obese according to BMI, which is ridiculous. It's because they have a lot of dense lean mass on their body. So the body roundness index actually compensates for lean mass and can give you, based on the shape of your body, how much body fat you have and your health factors.

Philip Pape: 29:33

So check those out now using your phone. Click the link in my show notes, or go to witsandweightscom and click calculators in the top menu and check those out. All right, that is it for today. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your most powerful fitness tool isn't your social media feed, it's your ability to choose where you direct your attention. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights Podcast. I'll talk to you next time.

The New Smart Lifting App Every Science-Based Lifter NEEDS (Michael Liu) | Ep 247

Download Boostcamp for free and get instant access to 70+ workout plans from evidence-based coaches, or go to boostcamp.com/#witsandweights (use code witsandweights)

Do you struggle with program hopping and sticking to a plan? Could a personalized app transform your training routine? What if tracking your training metrics was the key to unlocking your potential?

Philip (@witsandweights) connects with Michael Liu, the co-founder of Boostcamp, a cutting-edge app designed to make evidence-based training accessible and practical for lifters of all levels. Michael shares how the app simplifies complex programming, empowers lifters with real-time data, and offers a customizable approach to training. They explore how technology can enhance gains without replacing the human element. Discover how Boostcamp stands out, why the right program is crucial, and how data-driven insights can optimize your results. Whether a novice or an advanced lifter, you'll learn actionable strategies to elevate your training journey.

Michael Liu co-founded Boostcamp, a revolutionary fitness app designed to bridge the gap between evidence-based training and user-friendly technology. A passionate strength athlete and entrepreneur, Michael has a unique background combining finance and fitness. His dedication to simplifying complex training principles has made Boostcamp a go-to resource for lifters worldwide. Boostcamp has partnered with top coaches like Eric Helms, Greg Nuckols, and Alex Bromley to offer high-quality, customizable programs accessible to lifters of all levels.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:09 The origins of Boostcamp and its mission
9:09 Finding the perfect program for you
13:25 Community-created programs and feedback
19:45 Tracking progress and data analytics
25:02 Muscle engagement and volume tracker
27:17 Simplifying advanced programs, app gamification vs. human coaching
32:33 Program structure and training style flexibility
39:10 Tools and features that keep lifters on track
47:01 Outro

Episode resources:

• Boostcamp subreddit

• Instagram: @trainwithboostcamp

How Boostcamp is Revolutionizing Evidence-Based Training Programs

The Problem with Traditional Workout Apps and Programs

For years, lifters have struggled with clunky spreadsheets, confusing program designs, and workout apps that miss the mark on what really matters for making progress. Whether you're program hopping or trying to figure out your next training block, the disconnect between proven training principles and practical implementation has been a major roadblock. As someone who's personally tested dozens of apps and programs, I can tell you that most of them fall short in making evidence-based training accessible and practical.

Free Access to Elite Coaching

Boostcamp has partnered with respected names in the evidence-based fitness space including Eric Helms, Alex Bromley, Greg Nuckols, and Alberto Nunez. These aren't just random programs – they're structured training blocks designed by coaches who understand the science of strength and hypertrophy. What's even more impressive is that these programs are available for free, democratizing access to high-quality training expertise.

Smart Program Design Features

• One-rep max calculators and automatic weight progression

• Customizable exercise substitutions that carry forward

• Volume tracking by muscle group (developed with Eric Helms and Bryce Lewis)

• Weekly analytics on training load and progress

• Rest timers and warm-up sets calculator

The app takes complex programming concepts and makes them approachable without dumbing them down. For example, when you start a program like 5/3/1 or Bromley's Bull Mastiff, you just input your maxes and the app handles all the calculations and progressions automatically.

Program Retention and Results

According to Boostcamp's analysis of user data:

• 3-day programs show the highest adherence rates

• Programs with phase changes (volume, intensity) keep users engaged longer

• Structured progression is key for sustainable results

This matches what I've seen with my own clients – programs need to balance effectiveness with sustainability.

Community Program Innovation

With over 3,000 user-created programs, some unexpected trends have emerged:

• Supplementary programs (stretching, grip training) see high adoption

• Niche programs targeting specific demographics perform well

• Community engagement drives program evolution

Balancing Complexity with Usability

The app serves both complete beginners and advanced lifters, requiring careful feature implementation to avoid overwhelming new users while providing the depth experienced lifters need. This is something I particularly appreciate as both a coach and lifter – you can go as deep or as simple as you want with the features.

Continuous Development

Through active community engagement and coach collaboration, Boostcamp continues adding features like:

• Enhanced program customization

• Detailed exercise instruction videos

• Advanced analytics for tracking progress

• Integration with evidence-based training principles

Making Real Progress with Smart Programming

The key to results isn't just having access to good programs – it's having the right tools to implement them effectively and track progress. Boostcamp bridges this gap by making proven training methodologies accessible while providing the analytics needed to optimize your training. Whether you're just starting out or you're an experienced lifter looking to level up your training, having the right combination of programming and tracking tools can make all the difference in your results

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're looking for the perfect training program, or you've been following random workouts, or even have no plan at all when you go to the gym, this episode is for you. What if I told you that the difference between mediocre and exceptional results often comes down to following a well-structured program consistently and tracking the right metrics to make sure you're actually making progress? Today, I'm sitting down with the founder of Boostcamp, Boostcamp Liu, who's also a strength athlete and is revolutionizing how lifters translate complex evidence-based training principles into real-world results in the gym. Whether you're frustrated with confusing or ineffective programs, you're tired of program hopping, or you're ready to take your training to the next level, based on your personal performance and data, this episode will show you how proper programming and tracking can help your gains take off. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:04

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I've invited Michael Liu on the show to show you how to combine the use of technology with evidence-based training.

Philip Pape: 1:13

Now, michael is a serious lifter, like I try to be, who's pulled 600 pounds off the floor and understands the importance of proper programming. His app, boostcamp, has rapidly gained traction. By giving you access to effective training programs for coaches who we all know and love in the evidence-based space, like Eric Helms, alex Bromley, greg Knuckles and Alberto Nunez and combining that with a clean design and workout analytics and you know how much I love data Today you'll learn how to find a program that works, implement proven training principles more effectively, track the metrics that actually matter for progress and optimize your training using that data Plus. As someone who personally uses Boostcamp for my own training and my clients, I'm really excited to ask Michael about how the technology works and what the future holds so you can identify, track and customize your program to build more strength and size than ever before. Michael, thanks for doing this and coming on the show. My man.

Michael Liu: 2:08

Thank you. It's an honor to be on your podcast, Philip.

Philip Pape: 2:11

Yeah, and you and I connected a while back I think you'd reached out about being an affiliate and I said what is this new lifting app that claims to be the best app for lifters? And I tried it out and I use it now, which is awesome, right, I use it now and my clients use it a whole bunch of folks. I've definitely referred to the app. So today we're going to try not to make it an yeah, we're not going to make it an infomercial, but just so people know who are listening. You know, I use it myself and I think it's a great technology. So I want to ask you, if you went back in time and gave yourself Boostcamp when you first started lifting, what would that have done for your approach to training and your results?

Michael Liu: 2:50

Wow, that's an interesting question. I mean, I would definitely be 10 times stronger than I am now Probably be a world champion powerlifter by now Competing in the IFBB pros, probably as well.

Philip Pape: 3:03

You would be man right there next to Eric right.

Michael Liu: 3:07

Jokes aside, I would say probably would have made more consistent progress. When I first started lifting was back in the early late 2000s and that's when starting strength was very popular. But I would say the science-based fitness hasn't really caught on yet. So besides starting strength, people were still on the bodybuildingcom MISC forums putting out random splits and routines and mostly I was trying a bunch of different things and really just program hopping and wasting my time. So I think if I had more structure in place, better access to incredible coaches, that is, on the bootcamp and also just on the internet now, I think it would have definitely made a lot more progress.

Philip Pape: 3:56

Yeah, that makes sense. A lot of us have been through a similar journey. Even though I started lifting later, it still took me 10 years to find starting strength or the muscle strength pyramids or any of these things. And one of the most common questions I get from clients is like what people in general, what apps should I use to track my workouts? And the fact that you can take a program in an app, find it, follow it and all for free. I think that's powerful because that kind of connects to things that are often separated right, like I need to go find a program, so I get lost on the internet and I download some old Google sheet program from somebody to figure it out. I have no idea what I'm doing. Versus hey, jump right into Alex Bromley's bull Mastiff, like I just did a week ago, and you could customize it as needed, but you could just start. So is that why you started BoostCamp, because you saw that need in the industry, or what's the story behind it?

Michael Liu: 4:49

Yeah, that's a great question. That's exactly right. So

Michael Liu: 5:02

my partner, patricia, she's the engineer and she's really the brain behind Boostcamp, but my background is actually in finance, so I'm quite familiar with using spreadsheets for work before we started building Boostcamp. But the one thing that I noticed was, you know, as the fitness enthusiast amongst my friend circle, anytime someone will ask me for a workout program, I'll be like, oh hey, check out this spreadsheet and sounds 531 spreadsheet, where you're going to make great progress, and the most common response I get is I'm not going to follow a spreadsheet to go to the gym on my mobile phone. So that's really where, to your point, the genesis of Boostcamp came from is to make workout programs more accessible so that people can actually follow them and make progress without needing to, you know, bundle with an Excel sheet on their laptop or bring, like you know, or trying to open Google Sheets on their phone.

Philip Pape: 6:07

Yeah, and it makes sense and I think there are apps out there that get part of the way there and I'm probably going to drop some of your competitors as we go through this. But I used Train Heroic for a long time through a coach that I had, but you have to be a coach kind of paying into that and then the client can access it or you have to pay for a program if you're a client. So it looks like you came in and disrupted that by offering the programs high quality, vetted from really good coaches for free. And then you know there's premium features you could upgrade to on the app that are like the added value once you get into that ecosystem. Is that a fair assessment?

Michael Liu: 6:42

yeah, I mean. So before we launch better premium features, we used to get people who complain and say that oh, like, the premium version of bootcamp kind of sucks. And the reason is because we give away the best features of the app, which is the ability to follow tons of amazing programs for free. So the way I kind of describe it is like you're going to a restaurant and you get the steak for free but you have to pay for the ketchup. You know what I mean? Okay, you have to pay for the potatoes.

Michael Liu: 7:12

I mean, at least that's what Boostcamp was like before, where we give away so many features for free and we still do. And frankly, I think that's important because you know our mission is to make science-based fitness more accessible, to make training more accessible for anybody, not just people who can afford it. So you know to your point, we have tons of workout programs that are completely free to use on the app. People can create their own programs for free on the app as well, or they can just track workouts like a simple workout tracker. So we give away all these features for free so that you know we actually help people get stronger and reach their fitness goals and you know if they find the app useful. Many people just want to support us, regardless of whether they actually need the free features or not, so that's really how we think about the business is not just from a financial perspective.

Philip Pape: 8:15

It really started as a pet project for us to, you know, make some moves in the space and I'm happy to tell people about it because, for example, you mentioned custom programs. A lot of people get frustrated with how difficult it is to just make your own next session or workout. And not only can you do that, you can do it on desktop, which is not that people are like, oh cool, you can do it on desktop, which is like I could sit down and create a 16 week very complicated program if you want, you know, in like 30 minutes on a desktop. But I want to talk about those programs a bit, because the listeners are like fine, you have a bunch of programs. What do they look like?

Philip Pape: 8:50

Well, you've partnered with a bunch of some of the most respected names in the industry. I already mentioned a few in the intro and I know you've had some of them on your podcast as well, like what have you learned from them? Because you and I were talking about how you bring people on to learn from them on your podcast. What have you learned that makes a program actually effective versus, you know, it just looks good on paper, like a million others that are out there.

Michael Liu: 9:08

Yeah, I get questions all the time from users on Reddit and over email on what is the best workout program, and I think you know the right question is what is the perfect workout program for you? Because I'm sure you know as a coach yourself, everybody is different. People have different life constraints, people have different goals, some people are injured, so the perfect program really depends on the specific person. So the one thing that we try to do on Boostcamp is to have lots of different programs, cater to different goals, whether your main goal is general strength training, bodybuilding, competitive, powerlifting, at home fitness. So different goals.

Michael Liu: 9:58

We have filters for how many days you want to train. So we have programs for 3 days a week, 4 days a week, even 7 days a week, programs for three days a week, four days a week, even seven days a week. Programs for different equipment access. So some people only have you know, only have a pull-up bar. Some people have access to a home gym with only barbells and a few dumbbells and some people have entire access of, you know, like a commercial gym.

Michael Liu: 10:24

So by having all these different goals, different filters and also different levels depending on if you're a beginner, novice, intermediate or advanced you can really find the right program for yourself, and I think that is the most important factor between what is considered like a good program for you and versus not Now.

Michael Liu: 10:43

With that being said, there's definitely a contrast between good programs and bad programs. Like we talked about at the beginning of the podcast, back in the early 2010s, there were a lot of really bad programs on the internet Programs where you know you're doing 20 different exercises per day or you're doing deadlifts after doing a bunch of isolation exercises. Programs that generally would kill you from having way too much workload but actually doesn't help you make progress. That's why I think we only try to partner with science-based coaches that not only are very knowledgeable from a science perspective, but also have a lot of in-field experience training clients as well to design programs that are actually good. So the foundation of the programs are good and then it's up to the user themselves to figure out like what is the right program for them.

Philip Pape: 11:42

Right and definitely rely on those filters pretty heavily. And then once you go into the program you could see the description of it and kind of the why behind that. For someone who's been program hopping and ready to just pick a program, is there any advice you give them when they do that filter for the first time? Because I could imagine you'd still be overwhelmed. Right, you still pick all these filters and then you have like eight programs to choose from. What would you recommend?

Michael Liu: 12:07

Yeah, I mean that's a tough problem and, frankly, it's something that I don't think we've fully solved, because, like you said right, we have so many programs on the app now by coaches and there's also thousands of programs uploaded by users as well. Or even if you use all the filters, you might still get eight programs. So I guess, like, ultimately, how you pick that, honestly, I don't have a great answer. I mean, I'm curious on you know, from your perspective as a coach, like what would you recommend?

Philip Pape: 12:36

Yeah, I mean, I think one answer is you won't know until you try, Like that's. One answer is unless you really know yourself like a late, intermediate or advanced lifter, many programs can work and I would just look at the workouts. Like you can hop in and you can see OK, this is 18 week program. Kind of jump ahead and see what the lifts, the movements are. Look at the volume we were joking about bullmastiff, how it has like a massive ramp up in volume, and if that's not something you're going to stick with right now, maybe another program is right for you and not something you're going to stick with right now. Maybe another program's right for you and there's also a description in there.

Philip Pape: 13:06

I know Brian Borstein. He was on the show and he has a hybrid program in there. So there's special interests people might have improving conditioning. So yeah, I would say, just experiment and we'll get to later. I wanted to ask you some about AI and technology in the future. Maybe there's other ways to get there. But here's a fun question what? What's the most bizarre program? Or like maybe it's a community program, because you don't want to throw any of your coaches under the bus that you've seen like created in the app. I don't know if that's something you track and that worked well, you know, like a bizarre program. Have you ever seen something like that?

Michael Liu: 13:39

Oh my God. So we launched the community program feature in January of this year and now there's been I think there's over 3,000 programs now that have been published by users. What's crazy is you can actually find thousands of users because you can see the number of athletes on each program. Even for the community programs, you can find programs with thousands of users on them and there's definitely some like super niche programs that have done really well. That's like super random.

Michael Liu: 14:10

We frankly had to take down some programs that are like inappropriate.

Michael Liu: 14:15

Okay, you know, if they have different, you know like 18 plus type of graphic, obviously we have to take stuff like that down.

Michael Liu: 14:27

But the one program that's done really well that sort of in a field that we hadn't really thought about is a stretching program, which I think might be the most popular community program right now and it's like a 10-minute stretching routine which I think is really smart because, you know, at some point the programs do become saturated, right, because there's so many programs out there now on BoostGap and a stretching program really benefits any single strength training program you do and it's definitely very important for just general health and preventing injuries. So I think that program, you know, it's a really smart program. I'm just taking a look now at some other ones. There's like a basic grip routine for grip training that you know has done really well. There's one called Shy Girls Get Fit with 800 athletes on it. I mean, I recommend you check out the community program section of the website because you'll find a ton of interesting programs uploaded by users with just like the most random names and graphics but somehow they really attract like the exact audience for that program.

Philip Pape: 15:37

I love that right, like the stretching. I could see why now you're going to have a whole bunch of people listening to this podcast go in and stretching programs because they don't grab attention. But I could see that these kind of niche, supportive type workouts, like grip training, could be for improving your deadlift or for strongman or you know the jungle gym style like I forget the name, but you know the ninja style training and stuff like that. I know data is a big part of this app on the back end. Are you able to collect some sort of information or data not private data, obviously, but just patterns from the community workouts right now, like are you you know, without revealing any trade secrets or anything? Are you able to analyze that in any way, because it's a big source of potential information on how people think about programming?

Michael Liu: 16:21

Yeah, to be honest, we haven't been able to focus too much on the analytic side of the programming yet at a very in-depth, detailed level, I would say the type of analysis that we ran have shown, for example, programs that are three days a week tend to have the highest retention for people to stay connected to programs.

Michael Liu: 16:43

We actually ran a pretty interesting analysis over a year ago on the most popular programs. We did run a pretty interesting analysis a while back just comparing the starting WinRAM access for users on different programs and an aggregate level versus other programs. I can share you a link where we share the findings with the community afterwards, but that was like a one-time exercise. That I thought was pretty cool because you know how, like when you go to Reddit and you search program reviews, you'll find a lot of anecdotal evidence for programs and oftentimes the most brutal programs that people actually stick to end up having the best results. But it doesn't necessarily mean it's the best program for the general population. So by able to see the starting one-run maxes and the drop-offs across different weeks, you can really see some interesting analysis on, okay, what programs create the best results but also have the highest retention, so that people can actually follow through with them.

Philip Pape: 17:53

Yeah, yeah. That's a really great point Because we talk about sustainability and all this stuff, nutrition as well, and I could see two curves intersecting, one being like how effective it is for driving up your 1RM and one being how effective it is that you're going to stick with it. Where's the sweet spot? Where's the sweet spot for, like, the average person? And so maybe you have a filter like how gritty are you with sticking to really hard programs, you know, on a scale of one to five, and then, like, based on your you know level of pain that you're willing to suffer, you know not, not really to make it sound that way it would give you the right program, way, it would give you the right program. That's a really great point because we were joking again about the program I'm running. Now, when you look at the reviews, you'll see a lot of folks are like I got three weeks in and then they post their review Like you got to give it more time, and then we'll see.

Michael Liu: 18:38

Yeah, we should consider changing that. I mean we prompt users to give a review about three to four weeks in, and then you know they can choose not to leave a review about three to four weeks in and then you know they can choose not to leave a review. But yeah, I mean the reviews really become more helpful, like later on, right, if for people to actually stick onto the program. But then at the same time, if a program is too hard and most people are dropping off on week three, that probably means that the program you know might not be the best program for a lot of people. So it's hard to say, yeah, the people, so it's hard to say yeah.

Philip Pape: 19:07

The weird ones are the ones where they're like five stars. I'm three weeks in. This looks like it'd be great for growing my legs and it's like a wishful statement, as if like but they're not going to continue.

Michael Liu: 19:17

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 19:18

But for you watching, you know, looking at the app it could be great. No, it's pretty cool. I mean, I love analytics. I know we can always go overboard, like overanalyzing data, but I did want to understand how the basic analytics available, such as sets per week or any other metrics that you think are helpful. Let me put it this way what are the top one or two types of analytics people maybe should look at? That informs their training and maybe any modifications they should make.

Michael Liu: 19:44

I mean I think people should. I mean, your question is around how you should track your progress really, and I think that actually goes beyond the app. At the first level, I would say you know if your goal is weight loss or bulking, you should look at the scale, so you know that's probably the most important factor you know you should look at and then followed by probably the mirror as well, although that can vary depending on lighting, how you feel and all that kind of stuff as well. But beyond those two very obvious and important factors in the app itself, I would say at the workout level, it's really helpful to just look at the weights and reps that you completed. You know from your previous workouts, right? That's the most obvious thing that I think any basic app should be able to offer. So being just even tracking even for me, someone who's been lifting for over a decade, I find just being able to track how many reps I did, you know across my three sets, lat pulldown or any single exercise, just really helps me remember my progress. So if I know last week I did 12 reps, then maybe for this week I'll try to do 13 reps, right, and if I'm at the top of my range, maybe I'll try to increase the weight. So just being able to see that progress over time from the number of sets you're doing and the weight that you're doing and the reps, is just super critical, I think.

Michael Liu: 21:18

And then, if you have the basics down like that, then I would say some other analytics that we now provide in the app. That's very interesting. You can see your total workout volume over time. So tonnage, your tonnage, yep, so you can see how that changes throughout the year, you know, is it increasing, is it decreasing? Then you can analyze oh okay, like, how's my body weight also training during this period? How's my results trending right? Because more volume doesn't necessarily mean I mean you know this better than I do more volume is always better and less volume is always better. There's a lot of variables, you know. In that it's very something that you really need to think through. And then some other analytics that we offering. The app that I find to be quite bespoke to bootcamp is the muscle engagement tracker. So I'm sure you, I'm sure you've seen this as at the end of every workout and if you go to the analytics tab you'll see this.

Philip Pape: 22:14

You know, big muscle guy yeah, yeah, the sets, the sets that you targeted each muscle right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Liu: 22:21

So that feature was so.

Michael Liu: 22:23

Eric helms and bryce lewis helped us develop this feature and it's super cool because it shows you your actual volume, done by muscle group, and the volume is actually calculated based on effective volume.

Michael Liu: 22:38

So, for example, when you do a set of bench press, you're using your chest, your front delts and your triceps, but you're not using the muscle 100%, you know, for the entire exercise, right? So your effective volume might be 100% chest I can't remember the exact breakdown, but you know we have it by hundreds of exercises. That's calculated, that's inputted, with the help of Bryce and Eric for that. But it could be like 100% chest, could be 60% front delts and 80% your triceps. We do that for like every single exercise that you do. So by having it broken down in detail and being able to see that over weeks, you can actually calculate and see the volume that you're performing for each muscle group over time, which I think is a very good indicator of whether you're under training a muscle over training a muscle. Even for me, when I see it, I'm like, oh, okay, like I'm not doing. Oh, I'm like I'm not doing a lot of work on my rear delts or I'm not doing a lot of work on my calves.

Philip Pape: 23:43

I was going to say calves. That's the one that often comes up. It's like at the bottom right.

Michael Liu: 23:48

Exactly, yeah, man, so that's a really cool feature, I think, in terms of analytics at a deeper level for people that are interested.

Philip Pape: 23:56

Actually I think I agree. That's one of the ones I look at a lot only because it prompts you at the end of the workout and then at the end of the week there's like a weekly report and on a program where volume is changing as part of the progression, it helps to see that, okay, my quad sets are actually going up. You know they go up a third and then a third and then they drop back. And we know from the evidence right that, and this constantly is getting refined. But Jeff Alberts was on the show and kind of confirmed it again.

Philip Pape: 24:22

You know, godfather of natural bodybuilding, that 10 to 20 sets is generally recommended as pretty solid for a good training program. But you could get an effective workout as low as five to 10, depending on how hard you're training and what you respond to. And then the idea of variation throughout the year is helpful too, because you mentioned looking at your cumulative volume over the year. I think that's helpful as well if you need to vary it up, if you're like I've gone through a six-month high volume phase, now I'm going to go through a six-month low volume phase. Like you said, it's not necessarily high or low, that's better. It might be that you need high and then you need low to get the response. So I'm just kind of playing off that as how helpful that kind of data can be for folks.

Michael Liu: 25:02

Yeah, I actually had a pretty interesting chat with Eric about this because I was about to start a cut after a pretty serious powerlifting and bulking phase, and I was asking him is it possible to gain muscle cut? Because the general consensus, I guess, is you can't, but the answer is actually a lot more nuanced. So it's possible if you're a beginner at certain muscle groups. So, for example, right, I was doing powerlifting for like two years like pretty seriously, like only squat, bench and deadlift, so I never really seriously worked my shoulders and my rear delts. I feel like that's something that I'm definitely still a beginner at. So if I focus my program on providing more training volume towards my delts, as opposed to muscles that I'm already pretty advanced at, like my back and my chest, perhaps I can actually make muscular progress during my cut and by using the muscle volume tracker, I'm able to look at how my volume is distributed during my cut to focus more on the developed muscle groups where I can actually make progress.

Philip Pape: 26:10

Oh, that's awesome. That's actually perfect timing. I was talking to a lifter friend of mine last week about can you get newbie gains when you're not a newbie, and we were talking about that idea of like there's aspects of your development and the way you train that are new or you've detrained. Like if you've been doing powerlifting for a long time, you might be detrained with a lot of other muscles because you haven't hit them through hypertrophy workouts. So for those listening like this is awesome, right, it's be smart about when you go on a cut and what kind of program you follow. That might be the perfect time to go after an underdeveloped muscle group because, assuming you don't go more than like 500 calorie deficit because that's, I think, decent cutoff in the literature of where it becomes really hard to build new muscle Keep it moderate and go after targeted muscle groups that are weak spots.

Philip Pape: 26:54

That's a great tip, man, that's good. So back to you were talking about like 5-3-1 and you know there's other programs that if you're kind of a newer lifter, they're a little bit complicated. You don't quite understand with the undulation and the block periodization and all that. How does the app, for example, make them more approachable without like oversimplifying, like still make it the actual program. How would you say they do that?

Michael Liu: 27:16

yeah, well, the beauty is the app first, as you mentioned earlier, has an overview section where we explain in detail the structure of the program, the philosophy behind the program, and you can also scroll over. If you go to the website or if you go to the program structure section of the program, you can see how the program looks week by week, with the different exercises, the sets, the percentages for each week. So you can still get the high-level overview. But where it really keeps things simple for the user is you click Start Program, onboard Program and then you just enter your OneRAM access and it calculates, it populates all your future weeks for you so that you don't have to do any jiggering. And you don't have to do any jiggering and you don't have to figure out.

Michael Liu: 28:11

You know how to use a spreadsheet, you know to make this program run for you automatically. So that's where we try to keep things understandable and you know, especially for the beginning of the program, but also make it super simple for somebody who's not familiar with, you know, the 5-3-1 structure to just click start, figure out their starting weights, in which, during the All-Borning 2, we have like a 1-RAM-Max calculator where they can enter the exercise and then it will calculate the 1-RAM-Max for them so that, even if they have never done 1-RAM-Max before, they can figure it out and then just start the workout, because you know you don't want to be fudging around.

Michael Liu: 28:50

You want to make it harder by you know, trying to be a computer scientist, work a program that's for somebody like me.

Philip Pape: 28:55

I get it. I'm like this is too easy. I I used to have to spend 10 minutes at least walking around my house like fudging with my next workout. Now it's just like there. Oh no, I had to find something else to do with my time. No, that's good. I noticed the program also has all this stuff. People like RPE and you know percent, 1rm and all the different types of ways like MRAPs and such. So you know we don't have to get in all the features like. Somebody can go Google, like BoostCamp, and see all that Rest timers, warm up calculators, all that fun stuff's in there. What I was curious about, like I mentioned this earlier, what is the human element that is the hardest to replicate? Do you think that maybe is in the program or isn't yet in the program that you would love to see in there?

Michael Liu: 29:36

Yeah, that's a great question. While it's really difficult to replicate the personal connection that you get from a coach, I've had some really great coaching in the past where you know it's not just the programming that a coach provides for you right, it's the mental support that you get from having somebody to cheer you on, to motivate you when you have a bad workout, when you miss a PR attempt. Have a bad workout when you miss a PR attempt. That element is definitely something that we don't yet have in Boostcamp. That you know in an app format that you get, you know, from a coach. You know the things that we try to do to replicate a little bit of that. It's like, okay, we have streaks, you know we're going to have badges in the future as well, the launch community features.

Michael Liu: 30:27

You know we have all these data, you know, to try to keep people motivated, but you're definitely missing that human element of motivation from just having a coach to stay with you during the tougher times. So that part I would say is pretty. You know it's pretty hard to replicate, but it's also pros and cons, right. So if a coach you know, if your choice is between getting a trainer at a gym, pop gym who you know. I mean, I used to go to Equinox. It's like this fancy gym and you know the first thing that be. I always see trainers get beginners to do the most complicated exercises like a one-hand snatch or whatever, right, but it's almost like they're trying to confuse them, to make them use a trainer yeah, like you need me, you need me.

Philip Pape: 31:19

This is so complicated. You need me, right? Is that what you're saying me?

Michael Liu: 31:22

yeah, because I don't want to lose a client right and you know, oftentimes, you know, I find that the clients don't make any progress over a very long period of time, whereas if they actually follow a proven program from Boostcamp or from the internet, from anywhere, they would actually make a lot better results. So there's definitely pros and cons to having a coach. I mean in the app. We definitely want to figure out more gamification elements to help people stay motivated in absence of a coach.

Philip Pape: 31:54

Yeah, that's always a tough one, right? Because people want to balance, they don't want too many notifications popping up getting in the way of their workouts, but at the same time, they want a reason to go in. I mean, for me, the reason to go in is just get big and strong, and if you're following an effective program, it should do that for you. But anyway, oh man, what was I going to ask? Oh, you mentioned already a couple interesting findings or tips from other coaches you've worked with. I'm just curious if you have any more things like that where you've, since you started developing the app, you've added a feature or a way that it calculates information or what have you based on what these expert coaches have shared with you in working with them? Does that make sense?

Michael Liu: 32:32

Yeah, I think the programs.

Michael Liu: 32:37

So when we first launched the app, we were digitizing a lot of popular programs from the internet onto the app and now, as we work with coaches, more and more to develop exclusive programs on the app. You know you can think of like a Netflix special, but for you know BoostGam original type of thing. But as we looked at, okay, what type of programs people love the most, what type of programs have the best retention are, you know they're typically programs that change in structure over time. So instead of just having a program that looks the same week after week, there's elements of the program that changes. So, for example, a 12-week program might be broken down into three phases of introductory volume, accumulation, intensification or you know the reps and the RPEs or percentages if there are percentages change over time Just having more progression in the program itself.

Michael Liu: 33:41

You know we found people generally like that a lot and they tend to want to stick to the program instead of it's almost like a freshness to it. Right that you start program hopping. They can still enjoy that freshness without having to switch the program and lose all the progression that they will be making. So you know that's definitely a big one that we learned hey, just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.

Jerry: 34:07

I personally worked with Philip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist.

Jerry: 34:15

Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one he's really taking the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth. If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, Philip.

Philip Pape: 35:18

That is a very, very big one, and you're hitting on spots that I've personally been thinking a lot about lately. And we talked about 531. We talked about Bromley. He loves base and peak phases.

Philip Pape: 35:28

I've seen myself like, if I'm just going to do the same lifts for week after week after week after week, I'm like I need something. Just for my mental health. I need something different. Even if you're like, no, you just got to grind it out, you know, just just keep doing sets of five forever. Right, I'm like, well, as a human, it's not going to work. So I think that's big and it's important for people to understand that that sense of variety itself is a driver of growth. Like you know, the fact that you have, like you said, different rep ranges, different percentages. Your body gets exposed to these things and that is a huge driver of growth. So I love that. You mentioned that. I think people should look for that when they're thinking of can I stick with this program for like four months, as opposed to having to hop around every four weeks to a new program because it's getting stale. So I love that.

Michael Liu: 36:15

One more thing I would mention too is just having more personalization elements in the app. So when we first started we only had programs from coaches and then we found that, okay, people want to be able to switch to different exercises, want to swap to their own exercises. So you know, having that being able to modify existing programs we found to be very important. And then taking a bigger step is being able to create their own custom programs. So I mean generally for newer lifters, I don't recommend it.

Michael Liu: 36:50

If they have a coach, like yourself you know, who's very knowledgeable, great right, you can create a program for them in the app and send it to them to follow. But for general beginner, even novice lifters, I would recommend they stick to a pre-made program for them, because you don't know what you don't know. So you could be wasting your time thinking of the best program and you switch that every few weeks and at the end you end up making no progress. But having the program creator I found to be another important feature in the app for people that are tired of following a program or they actually moved on to being intermediate or advanced lifter and they want to follow their own programming. So having that feature we also found to be very important keystone feature in the app that we didn't really think about when we first started BoostGap.

Philip Pape: 37:41

And I'm very glad it's in there, or else I wouldn't find it usable, like me personally, because I need to swap things out and when it comes to accessory lifts and equipment availability, it gives you a lot more flexibility and then you can swap it out and have it apply to future workouts, which I, like you know. Once you swap it, it's like do you want to keep this for the future ones? Yes, let's do that. The thing about programming in general, I think what we're revealing through this conversation is, you know, programming itself is a skill and everybody needs a different entry point and I think a good tool can help do that, whether it's Boostcamp or there's other tools, obviously, but kind of making it easy to jump in and do something effective.

Philip Pape: 38:17

It's funny you mentioned like pre-made programs, because sometimes people denigrate templates and programs, but in reality I think most beginners can follow a number of templates just fine and make massive progress and not overthink it and then start to learn oh, this works for me, this doesn't, let me tweak it. I think a really good coach that comes in like if I have a new client that's never lifted before, I'm probably going to get them on a very standard program. It might be my template, but it's still. I'm not going to highly customize it because I have no clue how they're going to respond. So if you're doing this for yourself and you like, download Boostcamp, think of that, just get into it, have fun, try it out and you'll know pretty quickly if it's for you and if not. There's a million other ways to do it. I want to ask you I know there's a premium version and I've seen that there are some programs labeled as pro. What's the difference with those versus the free programs?

Michael Liu: 39:09

Yeah, well, as we launched so many free programs on the app. We still launch all free programs, to be clear, but we now have premium only programs. So these are programs where we partner with a coach to deliver a lot more in-depth programming. So, for example, in the Paris Butler ball-dominant program, he's written a really complex program, Easy to follow but complex in terms of all the notes that he provides. We talk about. You know changes within a program. You know he's programming progressions. You know for every single week he's filming detailed instructional videos. You know to go along with the program. So you can think of them as a way for us to offer almost like coaching in some ways. Just you know a lot more personalized programming to help people, you know, get the results they want.

Philip Pape: 40:10

Yeah, that ties well with what we were saying before and I didn't realize the. You're right, the instructional videos can be customized because the default library it's like you know you go to Barbell Backsquat. It has kind of a silhouette animation of a back squat and what you're saying is maybe there's more custom YouTube videos linked in there, wherever the video comes from, in the pro programs and again, for people listening, like there's a ton of programs available for free. It's just you may find others that you really want that are in pro, even the one I'm following now. I'm a premium subscriber but it's free because it's the one I wanted to follow. All right, man, is there anything else you wanted to chat about regarding either the app or programming or lifting in general? You know I didn't bring you on here as like a lifting expert or program expert.

Michael Liu: 40:52

I'm definitely not.

Philip Pape: 40:53

But you've learned a lot, just like I have like, through the grapevine and through your relationship. So is there anything else that you wish I had asked or you want people to understand about all of this? Maybe the future of where this technology is going, or something else?

Michael Liu: 41:07

all of this, maybe the future of where this technology is going or something else. Yeah, I mean, I would say we really listen to user feedback and we develop new features very quickly compared to, you know, a lot of other app developers. You know we are very involved, like I answer, you know, every single user email. You know our subreddit. You know I try to answer user questions and participate in community discussions. So all of the features and all the programs that we've developed on the app has been through community engagement and feedback from users like yourself. So you know to the extent that anybody has any feedback for the app. You know we're always listening and, you know, willing to iterate and experiment and develop. You know, to make BoostCamp better. I guess from your perspective now, having used BoostCamp for quite a while for yourself and you mentioned you've sent programs to your clients as well, like you know what's your experience been like and what do you wish that we had yeah, man, good way.

Philip Pape: 42:11

Turning it back on me. I mean, little things come up all the time, as they always do. No app is perfect, right? There's always things, probably with when you customize an existing program, maybe just the interface being a little more intuitive. That's a minor thing, like I was able to figure it out like less than a day. Obviously it's figureoutable, but, uh, all of these things can be like less taps, less confusion of how you do it. That's the only thing that comes to mind, cause I think it's an amazing app and again, I use it. So, but I love that you do that. Like I use macro factor as well. Right the stronger by science guys, the same thing. They have a reddit and facebook group and they're like they got their roadmap planned out and everything and they're listening to folks. So as long as you're doing that, we know it's going to improve, even if there's things that people might have frustrations with now and, and that's that's the thing yeah, I mean the tough balance to juggle here is we're catered to both lifting enthusiasts and also complete beginners.

Michael Liu: 43:06

So when you talk about lifting enthusiasts especially those that are coming from like a spreadsheet, you need to have the advanced functionalities for them to create and edit programs as they would in like a Google Sheet. But then if you have all those functionalities laid out, then it's going to be extremely confusing to beginners who just want to get started working out. They don't want to be learning a brand new technology. So that's always like the struggle. Think about the UI, ux of the app when we have requests from people. Like you know, we have some requests from users on like really advanced analytics, right, or like a really niche feature that maybe 0.1% of people will actually use. You know, is that something that's more worthwhile developing versus another thing that you know it's more simple, that benefits more people? And so it's always a struggle to try to figure out like, okay, what makes sense, what doesn't make sense. Like we just launched something like for swap exercise that helps a small niche of programs but negatively impacts other programs.

Philip Pape: 44:22

Oh yeah, that happens right when you do an upgrade and people are like what happened to this thing? I relied on all this time.

Michael Liu: 44:28

It went away, yeah exactly, and what we thought was going to be improvement and it is improvement for certain use cases is actually a detriment in the other use cases. So there's just so many different demographics that we got to think about, and when you push out an update now, it's going out to hundreds of thousands of people. So it's something that, as we scale, we have to be very thoughtful in terms of what comes out, what doesn't come out. How do we prioritize different features and different designs?

Philip Pape: 44:58

Yeah, sometimes the feature's there and the user just takes a little more playing around to find it. Sometimes there's secret menus too. I don't think yours has a lot of those. But I'll talk to you offline about one thing I'm thinking of and see if you could tell me how to do it differently, cause it could be me.

Michael Liu: 45:14

Okay, yeah.

Philip Pape: 45:15

Yeah, it's a minor thing. Again, I love the app. I think this is awesome. I think the way that, like on your landing page, it says like the best app for lifters and when I first saw that I'm like that's a bold claim to make because there are a million apps out there, but the fact that, as a lifter myself, it does the things I wanted to do and maybe there's competitive apps that do that as well You're on the right path and I'm happy to shout it from the rooftops and recommend you guys. So those listening right now. Again, it sounds kind of like an infomercial, but it's because it's a helpful app and you're trying to lift and get jack, swole, strong, lean, whatever the word is you'd like to use. You know, go download the app. I'll throw the links into the subreddit as well. I think that would be cool. Boostcamp itself and anywhere else you want people to find you uh, yeah, I mean I would just say the.

Michael Liu: 45:58

The website and the subreddit are, uh, you know, the two places we're most active. Yeah, I recommend you check out the website and play around with the different filters to look at different programs. You know we talked earlier about the community programs, which I think you know. There's some pretty hilarious programs out there that people are creating and publishing. You know we're definitely thinking about better ways to display new programs as well incentivize users to create more programs. I think we've done a pretty good job so far with the product building and making the app useful. I still think we're very early on in terms of our ultimate vision of making the best lifting app out there.

Philip Pape: 46:42

Awesome, man, and, honestly, one of the best things I learned about you today before we recorded was this is your first podcast as a guest appearance, which I'm very happy to have you on Right Is that right First, and it shows that you're like a guy behind the scenes that just wants to get it done. You're not necessarily out there to just, you know, promote an app, so I think that speaks volumes. Thanks, man, for coming on. It was definitely a lot of fun. I think the listeners get a lot from the show.

Michael Liu: 47:04

Yeah, no. Thanks for being a great host, preparing the great questions. You made the first podcast appearance very easy.

Philip Pape: 47:10

Cool, awesome, awesome, awesome. Except I told you something in the app that needs to be fixed. Shouldn't have done that, because honestly, I love the app.

Michael Liu: 47:18

I mean there's. We get tons of emails about tons of things that need to be fixed, so I'm sure. Yeah, I'm no stranger to that Cool man, All right.

Philip Pape: 47:25

thanks for coming on.

Michael Liu: 47:26

Okay, thanks, philip, great chatting.

Not Another Thanksgiving Fat Loss Podcast! (Entropy from the Holiday Chaos) | Ep 246

→ Download my free guide to eating out, traveling, parties, and more or go to witsandweights.com/free

Tired of stressing about holiday food choices and being told to "just control your portions"?

Learn how the engineering concept of Entropy reveals why fighting against holiday chaos usually backfires. Instead, discover how to build a robust system that can handle any amount of disorder while still making progress.

By understanding how entropy affects your fitness goals during Thanksgiving, you'll transform holiday nutrition from a source of anxiety into an opportunity for growth.

Main Takeaways:

• Why fighting disorder creates more chaos (backed by thermodynamics)

• How to build flexible boundaries that maintain progress without perfect control

• The power of quick system recovery vs restriction after holidays

• Why periodic entropy makes your fitness system more resilient

Why Fighting Holiday Diet Chaos Always Backfires (An Engineer's Guide)

The usual holiday nutrition advice makes one critical mistake: it assumes you can maintain perfect control. But as any engineer knows, entropy (disorder) always increases in any system. Instead of fighting this natural law, let's use it to build a more resilient approach to holiday eating.

Understanding System Entropy During Holidays

In thermodynamics, entropy measures the degree of disorder in a system. Your nutrition plan is a system. When you try to maintain rigid control during Thanksgiving - tracking every bite, avoiding all "bad" foods, bringing your food scale to dinner - you're fighting against entropy. And that fight requires massive energy input that eventually leads to system failure.

The Traditional Approach Falls Apart

Here's what typically happens when you try to maintain perfect control:

• Restriction before the holiday creates unstable conditions

• Rigid rules increase stress and reduce adherence

• Small deviations cascade into complete system breakdown

• Recovery requires extreme measures that further destabilize progress

Engineering a Better Holiday Strategy

Instead of fighting disorder, we need to design a system that expects and accommodates it. Think about how modern buildings handle earthquakes - they're designed with flexible components that absorb shock rather than rigid structures that shatter.

Building Flexible Boundaries

Your holiday nutrition system needs:

• Baseline stability (maintain normal eating patterns before the holiday)

• Core anchors (minimum standards that maintain progress)

• Quick recovery protocols (return to baseline without overcorrection)

• Focus on trend data over daily perfection

Key System Components

Pre-Holiday Stabilization

• Maintain consistent eating patterns

• Keep protein intake stable

• Stay hydrated and active

Holiday Implementation

• Set minimum viable standards

• Focus on protein and hydration

• Allow system flexibility

Post-Holiday Recovery

• Resume normal patterns quickly

• Avoid compensatory restriction

• Monitor weekly rather than daily metrics

Measuring System Success

Success isn't about maintaining perfect control on Thanksgiving. It's about:

1. System stability before the holiday

2. Flexible adaptation during events

3. Quick return to baseline afterward

4. Long-term trend maintenance

The Engineering Advantage

When you understand entropy, you stop seeing holidays as threats to your progress. They become opportunities to test and strengthen your system's resilience. Just like moderate stress makes muscles stronger, periodic controlled chaos can make your nutrition system more robust.

Building Your Holiday System

Start implementing this approach next week:

1. Maintain normal eating patterns through Wednesday

2. Set clear minimum standards for Thursday

3. Plan your Friday recovery strategy

4. Focus on weekly averages over daily perfection

Remember: A well-engineered system doesn't eliminate chaos - it adapts to it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

As of this episode, thanksgiving is just one week away and I think the fitness industry is obsessed with giving really bad advice when it comes to the holidays, and it usually involves around tracking or avoiding or using moderation or some other very specific way to maintain perfect control during the holidays, which I think misses the point, because you're going to have chaos whether it's the holiday or not. That's life, and the question is how resilient you are against that. So today we're using an engineering lens to show you why fighting against this type of disorder is what usually backfires, and we're going to show you how to build a system strong enough to handle any amount of holiday chaos, which will then actually accelerate rather than derail your progress. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are using thermodynamics to completely reframe how you think about Thanksgiving nutrition. What the heck am I talking about? Well, in engineering, entropy refers to the natural progression toward disorder in any system. But here's the thing, because well-designed systems can handle temporary spikes in entropy without falling apart, we're not talking about the overall entropy of the universe, where everything is just going to dissolve into nothingness. We're talking about day-to-day entropy, like a skyscraper swaying in high winds or your body maintaining temperature despite extreme weather, and we're going to apply this principle to your holiday nutrition approach. So if you're listening to this a week out from Thanksgiving when it comes out, or in the future leading up to any event, any holiday, any party in fact, where there's a little bit of extra chaos than normal from a food availability perspective, we're gonna talk about the strategy no rigid meal plans, no guilt trips, just a smart system designed to work with reality instead of fighting it.

Philip Pape: 2:10

And before we dive in, I just want to say I'm gathering some more questions for our upcoming Q&A episodes, so if you want to submit your question, you can either send a text message in the show notes or reach out to me on Instagram at witsandweights, or just say hello. You don't even have to ask a question. Just say hey, I love your podcast, or hey, you can do this better in your podcast. Whatever it is, I love to hear from people. So let's talk about what most people do during the holidays and why it fails.

Philip Pape: 2:38

They approach any holiday, say Thanksgiving, like it's a battle that has to be won, and I hear this a lot of times in the framing right. I have a vacation coming up, I have a holiday coming up, what do I do? How do I deal with it? And the premise is that you're trying to maintain some sort of control, and I'm all for being in control of your situation, but there's a level of control we're talking about here that is that's nearing perfection, right? The all or nothing mentality. Or even if it's not all or nothing, if, even if it's just hey, I have a plan and I want to keep sticking exactly to it. And so what do I do to do that? Okay, I need to make sure I'm tracking everything I eat, avoiding or including certain foods, stressing about the portions so that the calories don't go haywire, right? And if this sounds familiar to you, then I think that's the approach that is working against you.

Philip Pape: 3:29

It comes from a misunderstanding of how a system can work and why we use what we call physique engineering on this program. And here's where entropy comes in Entropy E-N-T-R-O-P-Y entropy. In thermodynamics, entropy is a measure of disorder in a system. How much chaos exists in the system? And the second law of thermodynamics tells us that entropy always increases over time. Always right. We fight against this natural tendency. It requires massive energy input. We're talking on the level of cold fusion, the level of stars, and eventually the system breaks down.

Philip Pape: 4:09

So now, this is just an analogy, of course, but think about how this plays out next Thursday, if you're listening to this before Thanksgiving, or just substitute any upcoming holiday or food event, a party, birthday party, heck. You start the day determined to track your food, maybe pre-log your meals, maybe front load your protein, maybe save up on some calories. And then Aunt Susan brings out her famous pecan pie. That wasn't in your plan, or maybe it was, but maybe not quite the amount that you ended up having. Your cousin makes a new stuffing recipe which, by the way, if you have Thanksgiving at my house, you are gonna be blown away, because we make something called the Pape Sausage Stuffing Very simple recipe, but it's full of sausage, it's not bready, it's dense, so good, and it has a lot of fat, it has a lot of calories. So you gotta, you know, kinda think about that if you're trying to think about things. But anyway, it's super delicious.

Philip Pape: 5:04

Someone tops off your wine glass when you're not looking. I mean, come on, it happens, you know, maybe throw a little whiskey in your eggnog. I'm not saying we have to imbibe on alcohol, but these things happen in the holidays, right? The more you try to maintain perfect order, the more chaos creeps in until finally the system fails. And you know what I'm talking about. You are the system. You either end up binge eating and feeling guilty or you become rigid and you can't really enjoy your time because you're trying to make it all work.

Philip Pape: 5:32

Do the macro Tetris, track all the things and this is coming from me, yes, the guy who says we should be tracking and measuring things Absolutely but there is a flexible way to do it. And this is where most podcasts coming out for Thanksgiving and I admit I am taking advantage of the attention to this holiday, but most podcasts on this topic will tell you you just need to buckle down and try harder with whatever their specific strategies are. Now, to be fair, some podcasts will say, hey, just completely enjoy yourself and don't worry about it, and in my opinion, that's probably the best kind of default strategy. If you had to pick one, because it is just one day and generally just one meal, okay, but being that we are engineers here and we know better, and I know you're gonna face situations like this quite frequently, not just Thanksgiving.

Philip Pape: 6:25

Instead of trying to eliminate entropy right, which is impossible, we just want to design a system that expects and accommodates disorder. So think about how a modern building handles earthquakes I was going to say hurricanes, but that's probably too close to home, given all the tragedy we've seen over the last year or so here. But earthquakes Engineers don't try to make buildings rigid, right, they build in flexibility. Have you ever seen a really tall building zoomed in, where they show it just slightly swaying in the wind? You might have even felt it. When you're up high in a building or on a bridge or something like that, the structure actually becomes stronger because it can adapt rather than fight against it. Right, it's not going to break against that force, and your personal nutrition system needs this same kind of intelligence when you design it. We build what's called robust stability. Your system can handle perturbations right, as my kids would have said years ago when we read the Fancy Nancy books that's a fancy word for disruptions without falling apart. That is what we're trying to do.

Philip Pape: 7:30

I talked to one of my clients on this podcast a long time ago and her name is Heather and she talked about actually being in a literal earthquake and her system holding up, her system of training, nutrition and whatnot. And it wasn't because of some obsessive level of tracking, it was because of a flexible level of routine, right, and those are very different concepts. So I'm going to give you four ways to implement this next week for Thanksgiving, and these would apply in general to really anything that comes up that is like that okay, birthday parties, holidays, vacations, anything going out to eat. And the first strategy is simply to plan for entropy. What do I mean? I actually don't want you to say to yourself okay, thanksgiving is Thursday, so I'm going to restrict my calories big time in the days leading up.

Philip Pape: 8:17

Now, I used to advise some form of this strategy. It's called calorie banking and I still think there is an opportunity to shift your calories around in a given week. But I much more prefer that you plan to do that regularly and weekly rather than do it as a last minute strategy, if that makes sense, because when you do that, it creates unstable conditions, which, ironically, amplifies the chaos. It creates kind of a pressure cooker and instead of maintaining your normal eating patterns leading up to the holiday, you're now forcing yourself into this very unstable eating pattern, which may even lead to some binging and way overconsuming on the holiday. Do you see what I mean? And so we don't want any anything in the way we do things to feel unstable or forced. We want to plan it in in a way that is is real to us. Okay Now, if that means that you know every, every weekend, you have a refeed and you increase to maintenance calories and on the weekdays you're in a dieting phase, that's perfectly fine if you plan it in that way consistently and then it becomes your routine.

Philip Pape: 9:26

But we don't want to add to the chaos by, like, cutting calories and going on a fast or not eating in the morning at all and then going crazy at Thanksgiving. It's just really because, think about it Now, you're just giving yourself three or four days of some level of misery. That takes away from the holiday as far as I'm concerned. So that's number one is just plan for entropy. Like entropy is going to exist, allow it in, allow it in, accept it. Okay, accept the entropy and don't try to fight against it.

Philip Pape: 9:55

Number two the second strategy I have out of the four strategies today, is to create flexible boundaries. This is the. This is the bedrock of flexible dieting that we talk about on the show. Whether we talk about minimums or ranges or or boundaries, constraints, whatever you want to call them. We want to have minimum standards that allow us to maintain progress no matter what's happening, no matter how chaos it is, chaotic it is, without requiring perfection, and for a lot of us that's something like hitting our protein targets right. Getting a minimum level of protein. Now, to get a minimum level of protein.

Philip Pape: 10:33

Heading into a holiday where there's a lot of food, it shouldn't be a problem, right, like it shouldn't be a problem to eat more than something. It's when we try to cut and restrict where the problems happen. So, hitting protein targets, getting in your morning walk right. If you like to walk, get in that walk on Thanksgiving. Get in it every day, right. Staying hydrated it's your anchors of order, that's what I'm going to say. Your anchors of order that help your system stay grounded, even when all these other variables fluctuate. And I'm sure you can come up with others, but again, we don't want things that feel unnatural to what we normally do. We wanna have minimum standards and ranges that would allow for us to be successful and hit them even when there's lots of chaos, which was number one, the chaos that we've allowed into our lives.

Philip Pape: 11:19

Number three is to focus on recovery, and what I mean by this is, if we're gonna use the engineering analogy just like a bridge or anything that has force on it applied to it returns to center after done swaying, or if you think of a rubber band, you stretch it, you let go, it comes back to its original shape If you have a clear strategy to get back to your baseline after the holiday, that's a good thing, right? Not by restricting, not by punishing, not by making up, but simply resuming your normal routine on Friday. Now, friday's Black Friday. That may be yet another reason to be a little bit off your routine, and that's okay too, but the goal is we are shifting, we are converging, we are gradually getting back to our baseline as soon as we can, and the quicker you can get there, the less impact the entropy will have. You'll see it in your rear view mirror. You'll move on. No big deal. It is just the noise in the signal.

Philip Pape: 12:15

And number four, the last strategy, is to measure what matters. Okay, and what do I mean by this? If you are the person who is tracking your food and you want to track your Thanksgiving dinner? I'm not going to tell you not to. I'm not going to tell you to track it. Okay, I'm going to say, when we track at all, we are thinking of things over time. We're thinking at weeklies and monthlies. So, because Thanksgiving or a Christmas party are usually a single day or a single meal, most celebrations are right. You're rarely feasting for days on end. Now, maybe if you go on that week-long cruise, it's a different story, in which case I wouldn't even worry about it. I would go to maintenance and just say enjoy yourself and then come back A single day of this entropy, or even if it's amplified entropy, it doesn't define your progress, right? Any more than that. One windy day determines a bridge's integrity, like if we're going to we're going to take this analogy to the extreme right your system works if you're trending in the right direction over time, regardless of this entropy that you've made room for. And so, when we summarize all of this, here's what the people are missing and what a lot of these podcasts are missing about entropy and order.

Philip Pape: 13:24

It's not about eliminating the chaos. It's about building robust systems that can absorb chaos and return to baseline right. Your body does this constantly with homeostasis. It regulates temperature, ph balance, whole bunch of other things. When you view Thanksgiving or any holiday this way, as a temporary increase in entropy that your well-designed system can handle, you stop seeing it as a threat to your progress. In fact, these periodic challenges listen to this these can make your system more resilient.

Philip Pape: 13:58

It's a form of stress that makes you stronger. It's just like moderate stress on your muscles when you lift make you stronger because you have foundational habits and now you're strengthening them over time, regardless of short-term chaos. And every one of these bits of chaos just teaches you a little bit more about yourself and gives you a little bit more resilience, because you come out of it the other end, back to your baseline, you're confident, you know what you're doing and you make progress over time. All right. So the holidays do not have to be a source of stress, at least in this context. There may be other reasons to stress you out having to do with family members or what have you but when it comes to your nutrition, your training, it doesn't have to be a deviation from your goals. It's entropy, it's chaos, it's a little bit off on that day, but it doesn't mean you as a person or with your system has deviated from your goals because you're working with it, you're not fighting against it, and then you could just enjoy the season. Think of next Thursday, think of Thanksgiving or any other holiday. And, by the way, if you're listening to this and you're not in the US, I just totally maybe lost you as an audience. I'm not sure, but think of it as a chance to test your system's resilience, not as a threat to your progress. All right, if you want to learn more about any of these kinds of concepts, follow the podcast, go check them out.

Philip Pape: 15:10

My Wednesday episodes usually get into the a little bit of a nerdy kind of engineering lens. My Mondays are deep dives. My Fridays are interviews. If you didn't like this episode, you'll like another. If you don't like any of them, let me know. Hopefully you love them and you'll follow, and you'll give a five-star rating on a review. If you took a moment to do that, maybe as a holiday gift to me, that would be awesome. I'd be very grateful. And that is it. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, sometimes the best way to maintain order is to embrace a little chaos. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Osteoporosis and Barbells (How Lifting Weights Prevents Bone Loss) | Ep 245

Could lifting heavy weights be the key to stronger bones and a longer life? What if you could reverse bone loss—even in your 70s?

Philip (@witsandweights) tackles one of the most overlooked aspects of health: bone density. Learn why the traditional advice about osteoporosis falls short and discover the science-backed power of strength training. Philip shares practical tips and key principles to build stronger bones, improve mobility, and maintain independence at any age. Whether you're 30 and proactive or 70 and looking to regain vitality, this will shift your thinking about bone health forever.

📧 To learn more about lifting weights, workout programs, and tips for strength training and building muscle, join my FREE mailing list at witsandweights.com/email

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:10 The reality of age-related bone loss
2:54 Common myths about bone health
6:51 Three key principles for bone adaptation
11:07 Why bodyweight exercises and cardio aren’t enough?
12:25 Misconceptions about lifting heavy weights
16:17 The transformative benefits of strength training
17:23 True strength training vs. lifting weights
19:42 How bone adaptation mirrors muscle growth principles
21:30 Outro

Episode resources:

• Join Philip's FREE mailing list at witsandweights.com/email

Related episode:

• Why Women SHOULD Load Their Spine for Stronger Bones

How Strength Training Prevents Osteoporosis

Traditional advice about bone health has it all wrong. While calcium supplements and light exercise have their place, the real key to maintaining strong bones lies in something far more powerful: strength training with weights.

Most medical professionals and fitness magazines push the same tired recommendations: take your calcium, get some vitamin D, and maybe do some walking. While these aren't inherently bad suggestions, they're woefully incomplete. They miss the fundamental principle of how bones actually adapt and grow stronger.

Your bones aren't static structures - they're living tissue that constantly remodels itself based on the demands you place on it. This is known as Wolff's Law: bones adapt to the forces placed upon them. When you only perform light activity, you're telling your bones they only need to be strong enough for light activity.

After age 30, we lose 3-5% of our bone mass every decade. For women after menopause, this loss accelerates dramatically. Without intervention, this gradual decline can turn a minor fall into a life-altering injury.

Strength training provides three key elements that make it uniquely effective for building and maintaining bone density:

1. Progressive Loading

Just like muscles, bones need gradually increasing loads to grow stronger. Light weights and bodyweight exercises eventually hit a ceiling - they simply don't provide enough stimulus for continued adaptation.

2. Compound Movements

Exercises like squats and deadlifts load your entire skeletal system, triggering bone adaptation throughout your body. This comprehensive loading pattern is far more effective than isolated movements or machine exercises.

3. Mechanical Tension

Heavy lifting creates significant forces that your bones must adapt to - forces far greater than anything you'll experience in daily life or traditional exercise.

Common Misconceptions About Lifting for Bone Health

"Isn't Heavy Lifting Dangerous?"

This fear gets it backward. While proper form and progression are crucial, the controlled stress of strength training is exactly what your bones need to grow stronger.

"I'm Too Old to Start"

Research shows significant improvements in bone density from strength training even in people in their 70s and 80s. Your bones maintain their ability to adapt throughout your life - they just need the right stimulus.

Beyond Bone Health: The Compound Benefits

Strength training doesn't just build stronger bones. You'll also experience:

• Improved balance and coordination

• Enhanced muscular stability around joints

• Better hormonal health

• Increased metabolic rate

• Greater body awareness

• Maintained independence as you age

Taking Action: The Path Forward

The science is clear: strength training is one of our most powerful tools for maintaining bone health throughout life. Whether you're 30 or 70, it's never too early or too late to start. The key is focusing on fundamental movement patterns - squats, deadlifts, presses, and rows - and progressively loading them over time.

Remember: your bones are literally getting stronger with every rep. The question isn't whether you should start strength training - it's whether you can afford not to.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Most people know that bones get weaker as we age, but what if I told you that many of us are approaching this problem completely backward? Medicine has led us to believe that bone loss is inevitable, that calcium supplements and basic movement and exercise are our best defense. Yet research shows there is a far more powerful approach that not only prevents bone loss, but actually builds stronger bones at any age. Today, we're going to uncover how lifting weights yes, actual barbells, dumbbells, machines could be your best defense against osteoporosis and bone loss. You'll learn why the conventional wisdom falls short and how strength training might be what's missing in the longevity approach. Whether you're in your 30s and want to prevent bone loss before it starts, or you're older and concerned about maintaining independence, this episode could dramatically change how you think about bone health and aging. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:10

I'm your host, philip Pape, and when we talk about aging and health, bone density often takes a backseat to more visible concerns like muscle mass or body fat. But here is the sobering reality After age 30, we start losing bone mass at a very alarming rate. It's about 3-5% per decade. So for many people, especially women after menopause, this loss accelerates dramatically. The consequences are that even a minor fall that would have been just an inconvenience in your younger years could now lead to a life-altering fracture, hospitalization, getting on medication and other worsening side effects. But today's episode isn't about fear, although that can be a motivator. Today is really about empowering you with information to completely change your life. We're going to talk about how strength training with weights not just barbells although I think that is a very powerful and effective tool can be your secret weapon against bone loss. Now, if you want a lot more free content related to strength training and lifting weights, supporting your metabolism, building muscle and all of this and you want some exclusive insider content, just join my free email list using the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email. I drop lots of emails with these kinds of mind shifts and what to do about it, and addressing the things that those in their 30s, 40s and beyond often care about and bring up as questions in their fitness journey, and osteoporosis and bone loss is definitely an important one. So, again, join my email list. You'll get those free emails that I don't send anywhere else Go to witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in my show notes.

Philip Pape: 2:54

All right, so I'm very excited about today's topic because I think it's the first time we've ever discussed osteoporosis and bone loss in detail on the show, even though I've alluded to it many times in the context of strength training. And so, to set up the episode for you, we are going to first talk about why traditional approaches to bone health, like the ones that you read about in the newspaper fitness magazines, are often not enough. They're just not adequate. Then we're going to dive into the principles of strength training that make it so effective for bone density, and then we're going to uncover why alternatives like body weight exercises, often aren't enough, followed by the connection between muscle and bone development, and then we'll look at some misconceptions. So I'm trying to pack a lot into this episode, but there are aspects that come up frequently among clients and listeners you know like is heavy lifting safe? It is, you know, high impact worth it for osteoporosis, things like that, and so I want to get into each of those and then reveal the benefits of all of this stuff that even go beyond bone health, just to tie it all up. So let's start with why the conventional wisdom, I think, needs to be addressed.

Philip Pape: 4:03

As always, right, we talk about misinformation and it's disinformation. Misinformation or just people run with the same standard advice that has gone on for years and then they never actually addressed the thing that's going to impact you the most. It really frustrates me. So I still read the paper, the physical paper, I think. Sunday they always have like a little health article and I was excited because the other day they had an article about you know why you should lift weights and muscle mass and all of this, and it was great. They actually, I think, mentioned Mike Zordos, who's a evidence based guy, and I'm like, wow, to see this in the paper is incredible. But 99% of the time it'll be something like I have osteoporosis, what do I do? And then the standard advice is all right, you got to look at your calcium supplements, your vitamin D, you need to make sure you're moving, you're doing some exercise, you know, go ahead and walk, all of that, and it's like where is the? You know, learn to lift weights and load your muscles and bones, because that's going to not only help with the situation, it could potentially reverse it right.

Philip Pape: 5:03

Here's what most people don't realize Bones are living tissue. Bones are constantly remodeling themselves based on the demands we place on them. You know we think of muscle because muscle's, you know, soft Actually I hope my muscle's not too soft anymore, but muscle is like you know, it's soft tissue. We think of bones as these firm, you know, solid structures. It's like adamantium and wolverine right, like they're just fixed in place and they don't change. But it's not true. They are a living tissue that can adapt and remodel themselves. And there's something called Wolff's Law, w-o-l-f-f where bones adapt to the forces placed upon them. Ah, just like muscle. Oh, so that's a huge clue. We can do something about it. We can cause stress and adaptation to our bones.

Philip Pape: 5:46

When you're only doing light activity, you're telling your bones they only need to be strong enough for light activity, which is our baseline. Just walking around, just doing light stuff, carrying the groceries that's light activity. Unfortunately, as you get older, that light activity is offset by the reduction in bone density to where you know you have less and less of it. Right, and think about when someone is bedridden they lose bone density rapidly. Or even somebody, unfortunately, in like a nursing home who's sitting down all day. It's because the bones aren't experiencing any significant stress whatsoever, and so the body adapts. So if that happens and we know the opposite is also true when you place appropriate stress on bones through weight-bearing exercise or I'm going to use the term training because it needs to be methodical, systematic and progress over time your bones respond by becoming stronger, just like your muscle.

Philip Pape: 6:41

Now, what makes strength training itself so uniquely effective, uniquely effective over anything else in the world in existence for bone health? I think that it comes out of three principles, three key principles that drive bone adaptation. And then, if you can understand the principles, you can change how you think about your exercise and training program, as well as aging itself. Exercise and training program as well as aging itself this is the powerful stuff that made me realize when I turned 40, that I could do things that made myself a year younger every time I got a year older. And that's just a simple concept. I mean. In reality, it's not that exact one-to-one type of deal, because otherwise I'll be like Benjamin Button and I'll be five years old when I'm 90. It's not what I mean. But what I mean is I am not beholden to age, and neither are you, all right. So the first principle is progressive overload.

Philip Pape: 7:33

Now I like a different phrase that I heard from Dr Jordan Feigenbaum. He calls it progressive loading, the idea that we're not actually overloading our muscles, we're just loading them enough right to their limit so that they have to adapt. But anyway, just like muscles will not grow stronger if you lift the same weight forever, if you're doing the same pink dumbbells or the same cable stack weight on the machine, your muscles aren't going to get stronger, they're going to get just strong enough to do that and then that's it. Same thing with bones. Bones will not get denser without gradually increasing the load over time, and this is where the traditional exercise programs for bone health fall way short. We're talking about stretching and mobility and yoga and walking. Okay, it's great to be active, but none of that is going to help you progress your bones beyond what they are needed to be to support your body weight or very light loads. Just by definition, you as an organism don't need to because you're telling yourself I don't need to. So progressive overload, progressive loading, which you're going to do anyway for your muscles guess what? They help your bones. Great, two for one.

Philip Pape: 8:37

The second principle is compound movements. Okay now, compound lifts, compound movements are those exercises that involve multiple joints and large muscle groups working together as a system in a movement pattern. Think about a squat. It loads your entire skeletal system, from your shoulders down through your spine, your posterior chain, your hips, your legs, even your calves and feet to an extent even your calves and feet to an extent. And this comprehensive, systematic loading pattern is a natural human movement and it triggers bone adaptation throughout your body, not just in an isolated area. This is why I don't like isolation movements as a singular form of training, like if you've never lifted before and then you go and just do isolation movements. Not only do I not think that cuts it, I think you're setting yourself up for potential injury simply because you're trying to hit one spot and you're not working on the rest of the muscles and joints and bones around it, and therefore the weak spots can really be a bottleneck or a potential source of injury. So, compound lifts, using your whole system. I think the older we are, the more important that actually becomes, particularly for bone density, because you're using your whole system All right.

Philip Pape: 9:52

The third principle, then, is mechanical tension. Now notice, all of these principles apply to strength training and muscle mass as well. So mechanical tension is not just your moving weight, it's you're creating significant force, you're applying significant force that your bones then have to adapt to. And that's the key right Is that when you're combining that with progressive overload, going right to that limit, your bones then get a signal, or your hormones get a signal that your bones have to adapt to be a little bit more dense, thus stronger the next time, along with your muscles. They all go hand in hand. So this is why heavy lifting, when done properly, is so effective.

Philip Pape: 10:33

The forces involved in a heavy deadlift or squat are far greater than anything you'll experience in daily life or traditional exercise, and therefore they equip you for well more than what you need there in daily life and will offset the decline that you would otherwise experience with aging, and it'll make you way more capable as an older person than all the other older individuals. You see, which is great. I mean that lets you show up, that lets you live a long, healthy, vibrant life, keeps you off medication, keeps you out of the hospital, keeps you from disease. And this brings us to an important question then why aren't body weight exercises enough? Why is cardio not enough? All right, now, don't get me wrong. These all have their place in an active lifestyle, but it comes down to physics. A push-up might engage your upper body, but the load is limited to your body weight. Of course, you can put your feet up higher at an angle. Now you've got a little bit more body weight, but it's your body weight. In fact, it's a fraction of your body weight. Right, because some of the load is being transferred into the ground.

Philip Pape: 11:34

A typical barbell bench press, on the other hand, can safely, safely, very safely, expose your bones to two, three or four times that force. Same applies to your lower body. Right, walking or jogging doesn't create enough mechanical stress to optimally stimulate bone growth, whereas a squat absolutely is going to. And keep in mind, a barbell is probably the most effective tool for the job because it's safe. Right, you can set up spotter arms. It's symmetrical. You can load it progressively, even with small increases in weight. You can use microplates and load it progressively forever, effectively. Right, and we know that we can use our normal human movement patterns with a barbell. Right, picking up deadlift, squatting, squat, you know. Vertical press, horizontal press, you know you've got rows, you've got pulls, all of that good stuff. So that's kind of the foundation.

Philip Pape: 12:26

Now where it gets interesting is the connection between muscle and bone development, because when you're strength training, you're not just building muscle or just building bone. You're actually triggering a cascade of adaptations throughout your body. So listen to me carefully here. Strong muscles create greater forces on bones. Those forces then stimulate bone growth. The process of building muscle increases production of hormones that also support bone health, and so it's a beautiful synergy that you can't replicate with anything else. It's all cascading together. All right.

Philip Pape: 13:02

Now let's talk about some of the misconceptions that I think still hold people back, that I hear all the time. This is kind of like my Q&A segment in here, just with the A part, the answers. So first is the idea that lifting heavy weights is dangerous, which is ridiculous. Okay, lifting weights is probably the safest activity that we know. When you compare it to like all forms of movement and activity in sports and you look at the rate of injury it's one of.

Philip Pape: 13:30

If you're older, if you're worried about bone density, I think this fear is actually backward, because, yes, you have to start appropriately and progress gradually, but the controlled stress of proper strength training is exactly what your bones need. It's like thinking that you shouldn't brush your teeth because it might wear them down. The opposite is true. Right, they're going to wear down unless you brush them Another misconception I'm too old and I can't get started. I'm already too weak, my bones are already brittle. I already have osteoporosis. I'm already taking Boniva or whatever it is. I already have to take my calcium supplements. I think the research completely debunks this. Studies show significant improvements in bone density from strength training, even in people in their 70s and 80s, just like we see with muscle mass, and so I'm firmly convinced at this point it is never too late to start. Never, never, never.

Philip Pape: 14:24

Your bones maintain their ability to adapt throughout your life. You're human. That doesn't change. All they need is the right stimulus. So the benefits of strength training, as I've alluded to before, go far beyond just preventing fractures, although that's extremely important, because falling is one of, if not the top, cause of death. When you look at like proximal cause, it leads to other things. That then often leads to death down the line, and I've seen it with people in my life as well, where it just upends your life completely and makes so many other things harder to do. And then we also, if you've never been strength training before and you have a fracture. You're then even less likely to start it because you think, well, now I can't because I've had this fracture or some other injury.

Shonnetta: 15:10

Hi, my name is Seanetta and I want to give a big shout out to Philip of Wits and Weights. I discovered his podcast just a few short months ago, but I quickly realized how valuable his content is. With all the many fitness and nutrition influencers out in the world today, I often suffer from information overload, but Philip poses careful questions to his guests that get to the meat of the subject matter, while most everyone offers free guides to this, and that what I found most unique about Philip is his live training and weekly Q&A sessions. If I can't make it live, I can always catch the replay. I am very grateful to find someone I feel is so passionate and genuine to his purpose, while also being hands-on within the Wits and Weights online community. He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do. Online community.

Philip Pape: 15:55

He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do. So. Obviously, training and developing strength and bones are going to prevent them as well. So if you fall even if you do fall because I can fall I'm 44 and I can trip on a rock and fall I fell when I was like 10 and I broke my arm you are much less likely to have a fracture or much less likely for it to be an issue, because you're stronger.

Philip Pape: 16:13

You have stronger bones, stronger muscles, especially like those little, like a small fall that for a younger person, would be no big deal. And so when you train with weights, especially compound movements, you're also building and improving balance and coordination and mobility. You're building stronger connective tissue between all the joints. You're enhancing the stability of your muscles around the joints. You're boosting your hormonal health Ladies right, hormonal health. This is a massive lifestyle change that will help with your hormones. You're going to increase your metabolic rate so you burn more calories, you can eat more food, have more energy coming in. You're also going to have better metabolic rate, so you burn more calories, you can eat more food, have more energy coming in. You're also going to have better body awareness, whether you want to call that mind-muscle connection or just balance and mobility. It's very important because then you're not going to fall as much, you're going to have more independence, you're going to have better long-term health. You're not just avoiding osteoporosis, you're maintaining the ability to live life fully as you age. Every one of those reps in the gym with that load that's pushing you is literally reshaping your body's architecture to be more resilient.

Philip Pape: 17:32

So let's talk about what strength training looks like compared to what most people think of as lifting weights, because that's another pet peeve of mine of as lifting weights, because that's another pet peeve of mine, right? A lot of traditional workouts or YouTube videos or what used to be in the magazines, or people who just go to the gym and they don't have a plan. What they end up doing is a ton of repetitions with lightweights, like they just do lots of reps, lightweights, 10, 20, 30 reps, lightweights. They use the machine, the circuit program, and they do the same weights every time, and I mentioned before that that is not going to help. That's only going to get you to a certain point, and oftentimes they're focused on isolated movements. You think of some of these machines. They put you in a fixed plane and you're just doing this isolated, one joint movement.

Philip Pape: 18:08

Now, is it better than nothing? Sure, when I see an older person in the gym, just there, I'm like, okay, I'm super excited for them because they're at least focused on trying to be healthy. But then when I see no progress being made, I'm like, well, you're kind of maintaining a minimal. That's probably better than most people, but a far cry from where you could be to really thrive and get the benefits of true strength training. And it's training, true strength training. You're not actually training when you're just using the machines randomly and the weights aren't going up, because the magic happens when you focus on those fundamental movement patterns. The squats, hinges, deadlifts, presses, rows right. Those movements, when progressively loaded over time, create the environment for muscle and bone development. Like we mentioned before, they train your body as an integrated system rather than a collection of parts. So it's super important and if you hear this and you're still not sure what to do, that's okay.

Philip Pape: 19:05

My plan isn't to like tell you how to lift weights today. I have a lot of other episodes that do that but I would say, just reach out to me or join my email list and reply and say, hey, I heard your episode about osteoporosis. What do I do next? Because I need to understand your level of training, advancement, your equipment, how many days per week you can work out things like that, just to kind of put you in the right direction, even if it is to send you to a template or video or resource that I have, all of which are free. You know, I don't charge for any of this stuff unless you tell me then, hey, I need the accountability, support and personalization that a coach provides. Then you know, let me know, but I do have a lot of free resources that'll get you going.

Philip Pape: 19:45

Now, something fascinating that most people don't realize about all of this that the way that bones adapt to strength training is remarkably similar to how muscles grow. I mean, I mentioned it earlier that they're living tissue, right, but even if you weren't thinking about muscles and you only cared about bones, bones need increasingly challenging loads to maintain and build density, and that will be way more effective than any medication or supplement. And I'm not a doctor. It's outside my scope of practice to tell you to take or not take anything like that that your doctor told you to. But seriously, folks, the same principles that help us build muscle and strength are also helping us build stronger bones, and that's the two-for-one benefit that you simply can't get from any of the other approaches. And so you know, just to put Bo on that, all right. As we wrap up, I want you to remember this isn't just about osteoporosis or osteopenia or, you know, just preventing fractures. It's building that foundation for a long, active and independent life.

Philip Pape: 20:44

Think of the things that you want to do when you're 70, 80, 90. Look around you, look at your family, think of your family history and what happens to people when they get older. And whether you want that or not I'm guessing you don't but what do you want? Take it a step further what do you want, what is aligned with your values that you want to do, and don't let the limitations of traditional getting old thinking get in the way. Assume I want you to assume, that you will be able to be as strong and fit and healthy as a 50-year-old when you're 70, 80, or 90. As a typical 50-year-old, you're going to be at least as strong, healthy and fit 70, 80, 90. And assuming that, what does that look like for you? And tell yourself that that is why you want to lift weights right, not just to build stronger bones, but a stronger person, a functional person.

Philip Pape: 21:34

Now, if you're listening to this and you're 30 or you're 70, doesn't matter. Never too late, never too early to start. You start now. I want you to start now. I want you to either reach out if you need help with how to train and what kind of programming would work for you, or just go out and do it. If you have the resources, if you have support, if you have a coach, whatever, I don't care, go do it. If you have the resources, if you have support, if you have a coach, whatever, I don't care, go do it. Go do it.

Philip Pape: 21:56

The research is clear Strength training is one of the most powerful tools we have for maintaining bone health throughout our lives. All right, so remember, if you want some weekly evidence-based tips about strength training, building muscle, also losing fat, hormones, optimizing your health and you're not going to find these anywhere else with the approach that I take, in the way that I take it, plus my quirky personality, you're not going to get anywhere, of course, until I'm able to clone myself someday in the future. Join my email list using the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email Again. Just join my email list. That's also how you can reach out to me and we can have a conversation. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your bones are going to get stronger with every rep, no matter your age. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Why Training Too Much Is Killing Your Muscle Gains (Natural Bodybuilder Jeff Alberts) | Ep 244

Are you pushing to failure in every workout but not seeing the gains you want? Do you think longevity in bodybuilding means constantly increasing intensity? What if smarter, more mindful training could unlock sustainable progress without constant burnout?

Philip (@witsandweights) sits down with Jeff Alberts, the “Godfather of Natural Bodybuilding,” to redefine how to train with purpose. With over 30 years of experience in natural bodybuilding, Jeff coaches athletes to build muscle intelligently through a 3D Muscle Journey. Together, they dive deep into the principles behind sustainable training, revealing why pacing yourself, prioritizing recovery, and respecting individual limitations can lead to a long-term, injury-free journey in the gym.

Jeff Alberts is a WNBF Pro natural bodybuilder with over 30 years of experience in competitive bodybuilding and coaching. Through his company, 3D Muscle Journey, Jeff has helped hundreds of natural athletes achieve their goals by emphasizing a thoughtful, evidence-based approach to training and nutrition. His philosophy focuses on sustainable, injury-free progress and efficient training, making him a trusted mentor in the natural bodybuilding community.

📲 To learn about progressive overload, why it’s important, and how to use it to maximize your muscle gains, download the free Progressive Overload guide here or go to witsandweights.com/free

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:11 Who is Jeff Alberts?
3:56 The counterintuitive approach
6:56 Evaluating the progress
9:12 Guidelines for volume, intensity, and finding an individual threshold
12:23 Understanding principles of training
18:41 Failure: Use or Lose?
21:55 Harmonizing training-recovery and program design
27:12 Realistic expectations for natural athletes
33:05 Joint health, fatigue management, and connective tissue care
46:28 Dieting, fatigue, and pacing weight loss goals
52:16 Outro

Episode resources:

• Jeff’s Instagram: @3dmj_godfather

• 3dmusclejourney.com 

• Youtube: @Team3DMJ 

Sustainable Training for Natural Lifters: Master Your Muscle Growth with Expert Jeff Alberts

For natural lifters grinding away in the gym, pushing every set to absolute failure might seem like the path to gains. But what if this approach is actually holding you back? In this eye-opening episode, I sat down with Jeff Alberts, known as the godfather of natural bodybuilding, to uncover why training smarter - not necessarily harder - could be the key to unlocking your true potential.

The Problem with Maximum Effort Training

Let's be real: many of us fall into the trap of thinking more is better. We push ourselves to the limit every session, chase crazy volume, and end up feeling perpetually sore and exhausted. As Jeff explains, this approach often leads to:

• Decreased performance over time

• Increased risk of injury

• Mental burnout

• Stalled progress

• Joint and tendon issues

Master Your Movement Patterns First

"Let me practice that 100 pounds I hit for 10 reps," Jeff emphasizes. "Let's practice that one, two, three more times to get more competent with it, to master it." This focus on movement quality before quantity is crucial for long-term progress.

Understanding Training Pace

Jeff draws parallels to other sports, particularly baseball pitchers, who carefully manage their pitch count and recovery. This measured approach allows for:

• Better performance quality

• Reduced injury risk

• Sustainable progress

• Improved recovery between sessions

Managing Fatigue Intelligently

• Training frequency adjustments

• Strategic deloads

• Sleep optimization

• Nutrition periodization

• Volume manipulation

Natural Bodybuilding: The Long Game

Being natural means accepting a different timeline for progress. As Jeff notes, the often-cited "5-year genetic potential" assumes perfect training and recovery - something few achieve. Instead, focus on:

Sustainable Progress Markers

• Skill development

• Movement mastery

• Performance improvements

• Body composition changes

• Recovery quality

Training Variables to Experiment With:

• Rep speed and tempo

• Grip width and angle

• Range of motion

• Exercise variations

• Rest periods

Signs You're Training Too Hard

• Chronic joint pain

• Decreased performance

• Poor sleep quality

• Low motivation

• Persistent fatigue

The Bottom Line

For natural lifters, especially those over 40, training smarter rather than harder is crucial for long-term success. Focus on mastering movements, managing fatigue, and maintaining a sustainable approach that allows for consistent progress without burning out.

Remember: "Your muscle doesn't know numbers," as Jeff says. "Your muscle knows effort." Find the sweet spot between challenging yourself and maintaining quality, and you'll be set up for long-term success in your training journey.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been killing yourself in the gym, pushing every set to failure and feeling perpetually sore and exhausted, yet your gains have stalled, or you're constantly fighting injuries, fatigue and burnout, this episode is for you. Today, I'm sitting down with Jeff Alberts, known as the godfather of natural bodybuilding, to reveal why training smarter and efficiently, and not always more, might be the key to finally breaking through those strength and muscle plateaus. You'll discover how to build muscles sustainably without the constant grind that leaves you dreading your workouts. Whether you're a serious, experienced lifter or just getting started, this episode will give you a new perspective on training intensity and help you create a sustainable, long-term approach in the gym that doesn't burn you out. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:00

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're discussing the art and science of sustainable muscle building with none other than WMBF Pro natural bodybuilder, jeff Alberts. Jeff is widely known as the godfather of natural bodybuilding. With over 30 years of experience competing and coaching, he's helped hundreds of natural athletes achieve their goals through his company 3D Muscle Journey, aka 3DMJ, and for anyone who's been following him for a while you probably can appreciate his thoughtful, measured and, of course, evidence-based approach to training and nutrition, today you'll learn why constantly pushing yourself to the max might be slowing your progress, how to increase efficiency in your training and practical ways to build muscle while staying fresh both mentally and physically. You'll discover how to manage fatigue intelligently and how to create longevity with your training. Jeff, it's an honor to have you on the show.

Jeff Alberts: 1:52

I appreciate you having me and yeah, after that introduction, hopefully I can deliver.

Philip Pape: 1:58

You'll definitely deliver, my man. So I mean just for the listeners. Jeff's a really cool guy. When I reach out to him to schedule this podcast, I usually send out some topics and things and he actually wrote back with thoughts on each idea and I was really impressed by that. It tells me what kind of coach he is as well.

Philip Pape: 2:13

But, having heard him on many other podcasts, I wanted to bring him on because you as a listener appreciate that data and evidence-based approach and many of us we're in our 40s I turn 44 tomorrow after we recorded this episode and I'm always reflecting on how do I get the most out of my lifting without getting too much pain, without having to have surgery or have something hold me up along the way. And, jeff, a lot of lifters feel like they have to push harder and they have to train with a ton of volume and they crash and burn. Then they switch up their program, they stop making progress even though in the short term they might. And so, for those who've been grinding at the gym, they go, you know, multiple days a week, multiple years, and they're not seeing the results they expect, or maybe it's slowed down. What is the biggest impact on their long-term growth at that point?

Jeff Alberts: 3:06

I got to say happy birthday first.

Philip Pape: 3:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks, man you still got a ways to go.

Jeff Alberts: 3:10

Yeah, yeah, you got a ways to go.

Philip Pape: 3:12

I do man, it's all good.

Jeff Alberts: 3:14

That's a long-winded question. That's pretty deep there. We're talking about longevity, right?

Philip Pape: 3:20

Yeah, I know, man, I totally. You know these opening questions. I'm like how simple or complex should they be? It's really like people wonder there are a lot of training variables and there's a lot of things you could change, and I think people change too much at one time of programming and the training variables. But they've gotten the tendinitis, they've had the hip, you know, the labral tear, whatever it is. You know they've kind of gone up or down and it felt flatlined, maybe for a while. What's the thing that they need to change or think about first?

Jeff Alberts: 3:56

Understand pace, Because I mean, think about what are we trying to accomplish here? You know, if we're talking about natural bodybuilding, it's a long man's game. You're not playing nine holes of golf, You're trying to play 18. So you got to learn about pace and it's like, yeah, we can look at all these shiny new toys that are out there and, like you know, we're gung-ho as far as trying to implement all these new things and, you know, trying to be really scientific, what it comes down to is what's practical and what is sustainable.

Jeff Alberts: 4:28

And for myself personally, you know, I always think about, like, what my current context is. You know I'm talking about life context. Same thing with my athletes that I coach like what does their actually daily life look like? And then from there it's like, okay, what can we do? What can we do that's going to be productive, but yet it's time, efficient and you're able to recover from it. And then from there, of course, you can kind of build things out, but I think it just comes down to pace.

Jeff Alberts: 4:57

Like the reason I'm still doing it this long, it's kind of just understanding that I have to pace myself. And you know I took myself back to my 20s, 30s, Like, obviously you can get away with a lot more things because your body is a little more pliable. So you know, there's some things I was doing that I'm sure I could have gone back and say, hey, let me improve upon the approach, and it would have been more of a conservative approach. I probably would have seen better progress because of it. But now it's like I really have to pay attention to my body. You got to pay attention to what life's throwing at me and in a sense, like I keep saying, just controlling that pace is just so important and you know it is. We always want to get further ahead, a lot faster. So that's the problem, Like sometimes we just get in our own way, in a sense.

Philip Pape: 5:41

Yeah, I've heard people joke, especially the older lifters, that no matter how much you hear this message on a podcast, it's like until you experience it you know you don't truly learn the lesson, and hopefully we can help people not have to experience more than they need to. But uh, you have kids, right, do you have kids?

Jeff Alberts: 6:00

Yeah, I have kids, I mean, yeah, you tell your kids you're blue, your blooming face, don't do that. Don't do that because you know it's going to happen. But they don't listen. And then they experience it and they're like oh okay, now I know what you're talking about. So it's like I mean Sticking that fork in the light socket. It's good to you, know, throw out some seeds, but I mean, you got to have them watered too. I just got to let people experience things as well.

Philip Pape: 6:22

Yeah. So I think that idea of pace and it strikes up in me the idea of, when we talk about efficiency, finding that minimum to make progress without going past that point Right. And there's a lot of discussion about overtraining, overreaching, building up fatigue and so on. I guess, when it comes to efficiency, what's the prevailing angle of attack here for efficiency? Is it minimum effective dose? Is it like let's strip everything back and start from a very basic low volume approach?

Jeff Alberts: 6:52

What's minimum effective dose.

Philip Pape: 6:54

Okay, yeah, you tell me, what is that. What is that?

Jeff Alberts: 6:57

I have no idea. Like I know what it is for me because I got enough experience, I've tried on air. It's so much to kind of know where that sweet spot is for me. But if I have someone that I'm working with for the first time, I have no idea what they can handle, how they respond to it. It's a lot of trial and error. So it's like okay where science comes into play. It's like okay that 10 to 20 sets you know general guideline Okay, if I'm working from that, if I have someone who's new to lifting, like 20 sets probably not going to go over too well because they don't have the skill level yet with things. So it's like maybe 10 sets is too much. Like I just want to focus on getting this person learning, teaching them how to move from A to B effectively, not so much worrying about the progress or the progressions with their lifts, more so like teaching them a skill. So it could be maybe it's six sets a week and let's just really make those six sets Like, once you learn how to move, okay. Now it's like let's focus on trying to move heavy things with that type of skill and improving the load, improving the reps over time.

Jeff Alberts: 7:58

And how are we responding now? Is your physique improving from that? If it is great, we may not have to do anything for a while, like we may not have to increase the volume. Eventually, you might get to a point where they're plateauing out. You don't see as much progress, strength kind of plateauing out. Then the question becomes okay, are you handling this? Are you low energy or high energy? And if you're handling things really well, it's like okay, now I feel more comfortable giving you more work because you have the supply to keep it going. But if it's because of fatigue, last thing I want to do is add more volume or more workload.

Philip Pape: 8:31

Yeah, that's a good starting point. Then, if you mentioned evaluating the progress and then going from there, how does so? I know I mentioned more experienced lifters early on, but there is kind of the different categories Somebody who's brand new to this versus somebody who's experienced. Somebody brand new is probably going to be very responsive to almost anything. So let's jump ahead a little bit and say they've been lifting six months, maybe 12 months at least, and they're looking for that point. Are you looking for them to report out on RPE? How are you collecting that data of the response session to session? And then, when you say physique development, are you just measuring and you know, using body measurements or what's your gauge for that?

Jeff Alberts: 9:11

I think you use all the above. So if we're talking from a performance perspective, it's like, okay, are the numbers moving? But are the numbers moving with skill? Because you can see numbers in a spreadsheet and go, okay, yeah, it looks like eight reps, nine reps, 10 reps, whatever. It's like, okay, it looks like it's moving up, but then you watch the form, see how they're moving, that skill isn't there and it's like, okay, that's not being efficient, that's probably not being effective. So, like you might need to clean form up. Maybe you need to take a step back and go, okay, bring your loads down or whatever.

Jeff Alberts: 9:42

And let's again hone in on the skill and what I've been doing lately, even for myself, because I've obviously I've been lifting for a very long time and I take pride in my skill level and form and all that. Like, whenever I get to a high end of a rep range with a certain load, I won't immediately go up to a new load. I'll probably roll with it one to three more sessions just to really ensure I'm very competent with it, like I've mastered it, because I know when I do increase the load from that point I'm probably going to have the same type of skill with the new load. You've probably experienced this, where you touch a load for the first time, you might get the reps a little shaky. You're like, okay, I completed it. Then you go to the next load. You know, the following week it's like oh, it's just all over the place. So from a skill component, I'm always thinking like okay, let's master what we're doing first, before even thinking about taking a step forward.

Philip Pape: 10:32

That's important, what you just said, because you're talking about load specific skill. I think a lot of people think it's like one and done. Like okay, I've been progressing, I've gotten better with my form, Now I'm good right. Like no, like you said, the center of gravity shifts. You know the balance, everything about it just slightly shifts the heavier it gets, and the bar path and all that could change if you don't change something. So that's a powerful concept, jeff, seriously, that people need to think about.

Jeff Alberts: 10:58

What you think about is like it doesn't mean you can't continue to make progress with that same load, like you should be hitting the appropriate proximity to failure, even if it's the same load, so you're still getting a stimulus. Your muscle doesn't know numbers. Your brain does, but your muscle doesn't. Your muscle knows effort and that's something like right now. I feel like, because I am advanced, I can have no spreadsheet whatsoever, not even count or track anything, but I know I'll get a stimulus every workout and because of the skill, getting to the appropriate proximity to failure.

Philip Pape: 11:28

And is this generally? We're talking generally week to week progress in a typical program, like a four or five day split where you're talking your your squat variant on Monday to your next Monday. Is that generally what we're talking?

Jeff Alberts: 11:40

about. I mean yeah, but I mean that's only going to last so long. I I mean yeah, but I mean that's only going to last so long. I mean eventually you're going to run out of like runway, like you're not going to be able to progress weekly, like the more advanced you are, you're like you might be able to get 10 pounds over six months.

Philip Pape: 11:53

In which case are you? Is that even more biased toward rep progression?

Jeff Alberts: 11:58

Depending on the lift. Yeah, yeah, okay, I mean, yeah, I think about you try to increase your loads every week. At that point it's like, yeah, you're going to end up being buried.

Philip Pape: 12:07

I think a lot of folks are curious about that, because people get frustrated when they get stronger and they're not progressing. They know they've heard time and again okay, I'm intermediate or I'm advanced, my lifts aren't going to go up as quickly. How do you get the sense of progress session to session?

Jeff Alberts: 12:25

Okay. So let's look at I've been going to my son's karate classes. Right, he started out as a white belt and now he's red black. He's maybe a year away from black belt and like when I go to his classes, you know the expectations of a white belt, a yellow belt, blue belt, like it's all different. So sometimes we expect to go from white belt to black belt, you know, and maybe the pace early on is faster, but as you get closer to black, like then there's first degree, second degree and it takes longer. I'm assuming it does. People are probably listening to Marshall, I just got a jet. That's not true, but I'm assuming like going from first degree to second degree it's going to take quite a while. Second to third takes even longer. Like my son's master is a fifth degree black belt. So like I can only imagine like when he first got his black belt, the fifth degree, it probably took quite a while.

Jeff Alberts: 13:12

Or look at olympic sprinters to get like a temp faster. They're training like four years to make that happen. Olymp to Olympics. So I think the expectation is like the more advanced we get, we just have to come to the realization that things are just going to move a little slower. And the thing is right now. Because I've been training for so long, I appreciate where I'm at right now a lot, because I know how hard it's taken me to get to this point and I know how hard it is to maintain it. So there's a level of appreciation for just what I'm capable of doing right now, even if it means I'm not putting on any more muscle. And I think that's where some people fall short. They're always like wanting to go, move ahead, move ahead, move ahead, take a step, take a step, take a step but they're not slowing down and appreciating what they're actually accomplished.

Philip Pape: 14:04

Yeah, and that's kind of the topic we're getting at today is, and that's why I think it's more relevant to more intermediate to advanced lifters is they want to see the progress they used to have and may not in the same way. It's progress that has to be measured differently, and the question for some of them is how do I shift my perspective and what I measure to properly gauge that and not feel like I'm just plateauing? Right, that's part of it. And then also, I don't just hop to another program, like, okay, it's not working for me. I'm going to go to Westside now, and now I'm going to go to the six-day hypertrophy program over here, considering that my audience is probably a normal curve but shifted slightly more toward less experience.

Philip Pape: 14:42

But not you know, what would you say to those people and I'm thinking a lot of guys my age who basically, like they started with starting strength or something like that, five by fives, and they shifted over to some sort of split intermediate programming and they're expecting, you know load to keep going up and, like you said, it's not going to happen. So what do they switch to? And I'm asking you what sounds like dumb questions. I hope I know some of these answers, but for the audience, yeah.

Jeff Alberts: 15:06

No, they're good. They're good questions and, like I consider myself someone who uses intermediate programming. But I've mastered it because I know with intermediate programming the principles are in place and that's what it comes down to is understanding principles of training. Once you know principles then you get a lot more comfortable with programming because you know there's nothing magical about an upper-lower split, a push-pull leg split, full bodies like all that stuff. As you know, it's just ways to organize your frequency, your intensity and the volume.

Jeff Alberts: 15:39

So when you think from that perspective, it's like this week I can run an upper-lower split, next week I can do push-pull legs. The following perspective it's like this week I can run an upper lower split. Next week I can do push pull legs. The following week I can do a full body split. And as long as I'm, you know, hitting my baseline volumes, that what I need. I'm able to perform it really well. I get to the appropriate proximity to failure with skill, I'm getting plenty of recovery, I'm well fueled. You know, chances are, across those three weeks it's probably going to be the same result at the end of the day. Maybe some very tiny maybe differences one way or another, but we're talking like splitting hairs and that's why I wore a hat today, so I don't have to show my bald head.

Philip Pape: 16:14

I understand. No, no, all good All good.

Jeff Alberts: 16:16

Oh, that's a joke.

Philip Pape: 16:16

All good.

Jeff Alberts: 16:17

Yeah, but I think that's just as an intermediate. It's just like because you're not, because, in a sense, when you're a beginner intermediate, you're not where you want to be yet, so there's going to be a sense of urgency. It's a double-edged sword, though. If you're like pushing yourself too much or you're trying to flip-flop training programs because you're trying to look for this shiny object to get you there faster, but at the other side of the sword it's like because you're changing maybe things up too frequently, then you kind of lose sight of, like, what's actually working and what's not, because you're changing things out too much. That's why I'm an intermediate programmer for myself, because it's just straightforward, it's very consistent. It's easier for me to assess what's working, what isn't working. Things that work, you keep it in there. Things that don't work, you're like let me explore.

Jeff Alberts: 17:05

But it's not changing out the entire programming. I might say, well, okay, this certain exercise, you know it's not really grooving right now, and then you find a different movement that's going to hit the same body part. Let's change it out and see how this one works. So I'm only changing one, maybe two variables at most. Okay, now I know. Like I ran this for two months Now I know exactly what happened with this. One change was either positive or negative, and again, it's a positive, keep it. It's a negative, find something else and eventually you keep evolving. You keep evolving over time and that's how you get experience. That's how you get more comfortable with keeping an intermediate program. In a sense, keep it an intermediate program.

Philip Pape: 17:43

in a sense I like that you're almost qualifying the word intermediate as if it could be taken as an insult, right for an advanced person. I like how you frame that.

Jeff Alberts: 17:50

I can take starting strength and probably make it advanced running it, because there's a difference in skill level versus me now, versus me in year one. I can almost guarantee you I probably make well. I'm getting older, now it's harder to make gains, but you know what I'm saying. Guarantee you I probably make well. I'm getting older, now it's harder to make gains, but you know what I'm saying. I can probably perform exceptionally well using that and recover well because of the skill level yeah, I mean, you're the poster child for those listening who don't know, jeff already white belt, black belt.

Philip Pape: 18:15

Right, there's a yeah yeah, look up, jeff, though I mean again, age is not a factor on this, he demonstrates that. But you talked principles, and that's like the magic word. I did want to come back to that because everybody has their like. Here's my five pillars of lifting, or my three principles, and you'll talk about progressive loading or overload. You'll talk about mechanical tension and talk about volume, frequency, intensity, like, can you simplify that for us? Like, in your mind, what are those principles?

Jeff Alberts: 18:41

I think when we think about okay, so if you talk about, we're talking about programming, right, yeah, programming, I mean we could look at the science, right, Okay, we got to hate body parts two or three times per week, maybe four, but I think four is a stretch for most everyday people. Even three can be a stretch. Even once per week can elicit some progress. So I mean sweet spots, maybe two or three times a week. So you look at that volume. We know the 10 to 20 sets thing. But again, I lean more towards on the lower end. When I'm starting somebody out, it's skill development first and then after a while you're like okay, maybe we can start gravitating higher. But I think of that. Okay, we're 10 to 20, somewhere in that ballpark.

Jeff Alberts: 19:20

Proximity to failure based on a rep range. So we know through the science, anywhere between five to 30 reps creates hypertrophy. So it's more about proximity to failure in relation to the rep range. You're using Lower reps, you can be further away from failure. I mean celestity within reason, and then the higher the reps are, you got to get close to it or very like a rap failure to ensure you are getting enough muscle fiber you know, while you're doing the lift.

Jeff Alberts: 19:49

So when you look at those principles, it's like okay. So then from there, I'm like okay, based on someone's context, the question I'll ask somebody is how many days per week can you train where it doesn't interrupt your life schedule? Because when you're in the gym, the last thing you want to be worrying about is I got to take my kids to school or my wife's upset at me, because I'm in the gym for three hours, or I'm there six days a week. I'm not spending time with the family. So when you're in the gym, you just want to be stress-free. So that way, when you are lifting, it's just all about you and that's where you're going to get probably your best performance.

Jeff Alberts: 20:26

So once I know how many days per week they can train, then it's like okay, can I get the frequency two to three times, or does it have to be used to be once? Because that's going to be practical. It may not be optimal according to science, but it's optimal according to that person, based on their constraints. So they're going to maximize themselves far better because they're doing something that's going to be lower stress. And then from there you get into the weeds. Like okay, let's talk about exercise selection, like, okay, this guy on this podcast said this is the most optimal thing. I look at it as like does the exercise hit the muscle I'm trying to target? Is it safe and comfortable for me? Do I have good stability while doing it and do I enjoy doing it? Because if those things check out, then it's a good exercise, regardless of what anybody else says.

Philip Pape: 21:18

Yeah, those are solid principles. I like how you said this is optimal for the person, right? Because at the end of the day, it ties back to what you mentioned earlier about pace and what's practical, sustainable and what is your life context. I laugh when you talk about days per week, because for me personally and I've seen it with a lot of my clients that often is the thing, that's the main constraint, and if you're hung up on that or you get fixated on the other principles and so you pick this program and you just can't stick with it because of your life, like, forget about it. I also think of sleep in that regard, right? Or fat loss, where you've got all this extra stress, you might want that extra day just to sleep an extra hour, and that can make all the difference in the whole week.

Jeff Alberts: 21:55

So people try to you know, I want to train six days a week because they think more is better, or the insecurity they think they're not going to make gains if they're not there. Or some people just love to train to a fault. Yeah, I would love to be in the gym seven days a week because obviously I love to train, but I also know that's not realistic to my life schedule. It's also not realistic to my recovery and I've said this on other podcasts. But I don't look at bodybuilders that much anymore.

Jeff Alberts: 22:24

To learn about bodybuilding, I look at other sports because they do a far better job at managing their performance and their recovery, because sports is all performance-based. So you look at football, baseball, basketball, baseball is a good example of starting pitchers. There's a reason the managers keep track of the pitch count and the number of days they're pitching in a week because they know if this pitcher is getting fatigued they're not going to have the velocity and the control on their pitches. But as body lawyers we're like, hey, let's just throw 150 pitches. To me it just doesn't make sense the way people think about bodybuilding sometimes. So I'm like let me use these principles from other sports and apply it to my bodybuilding, apply it to my athletes and usually you get a nice balance, nice harmony with performance, recovery plus real life stuff.

Philip Pape: 23:15

Yeah, that's a great point because I'm big into sports documentaries now the ones like on Netflix. There's one that just came out called the Comeback about the Red Sox Yankees 2004. It's funny you mention that because both Pedro and also Curt Schilling they talk about both of them Pedro being pushed to well beyond his limit in the series that they lost in 2003, and then the manager was fired for it. And then Curt Schilling, he had a tendon issue and he just could not pitch. It was like the first game of the series in 2004. And then when he came back the next time, they talked about how a surgeon like did this wonky, you know, stapling his tendon to his bone or something on his ankle to stabilize it.

Jeff Alberts: 23:53

Yeah, I remember the bloody sock Remember.

Philip Pape: 23:56

Yeah, the bloody sock, exactly. So I'm like that is such a great example of taking what the heck do athletes do Tom Brady, getting 11 hours of sleep you know that'd be great to see what they do to manage this fatigue. So I want to play off one of those principles. Then that comes to mind is the proximity to failure. I think there's a lot of misunderstanding there as well. You kind of you reiterated the understanding that there's a wide rep range to choose from. So let's get out of the old school, like strength versus hypertrophy regime or whatever. But a lot of people do think they have to train like really right up to failure. And you know, I know Dr Israel Till and others have always thrown out the two to three rep range. And then even more recent research, I think that Mike Zordos, the big main analysis that came out recently, talked about like six reps from failure even being effective so what is that?

Jeff Alberts: 24:43

what is that, though, like?

Philip Pape: 24:44

what do you?

Jeff Alberts: 24:44

mean like if I have like someone who's new or even an intermediate, yeah, what's six reps in the tank, like I don't even know what. Six reps in the tank so far, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah it's even hard to gauge what four in the tank is for me oh, you're right, like rpe gets criticized for that yeah one to two reps in the tank, that that's pretty easy. It's like hey, I can tell you like I need you to, like when you think you just can't do anymore.

Jeff Alberts: 25:07

Just when you mentally think you can't, you probably do two reps, you're probably really close to where we need you to be and without having to get like overly analytical on things. And then failure is like I mean to teach failures like they'll just have someone do a tricep, press down or a lateral and say hey, I want you to go until you just cannot move anymore. Then you get a better gauge?

Philip Pape: 25:30

Yeah, so what do you think of programs that are so? We mentioned starting strength earlier and there's many examples of that that are sets across like get all the reps and then progress, the load type programs. Again, maybe this is going more toward newer lifters. They're not thinking of proximity to failure, they're just thinking get all the reps and increase the weight next time. Right, not a bad idea to pay attention to, like take notes.

Jeff Alberts: 25:52

Hey, I hit 10 reps, I got the top end, but how many more could you have done? Was that like if you barely squeak that out, or it?

Philip Pape: 26:00

was kind of easy. And then that informs the jump for next time perhaps.

Jeff Alberts: 26:04

Yeah. So it's not just, instead of just analyzing the numbers, analyze actually how it felt to move those numbers. And it kind of goes back to what I said earlier, like even though I hit that top end and I hit all my reps across the board and first time I'm not going to, okay, jump to the next load, I'm like let me practice this. Going back to sports, right, like people get better at sports by practice. Let's practice that. 100 pounds I hit for 10 reps. Let's practice that one, two, three more times to get more competent with it, to master it.

Philip Pape: 26:40

I think that's undervalued. Yeah for sure. I think that's why people should stick with certain lifts for more than a couple of weeks, you know, at least early on, just for the practice alone, let alone the progress and neuromuscular adaptation and all that. You mentioned, the getting the data and letting that inform your jumps. I had a client text me and she said something like so my plan is to jump by this many pounds and then when I get to this load I'm going to drop it. I said no, no, that's the kind of backward. Get to this load, I'm going to drop it. I said no, no, that's kind of backward. Don't assume anything. Three, four weeks down the road. Let's judge session by session. You may be able to go up higher.

Philip Pape: 27:06

I don't want to even put limits on yourself until you get there, or maybe less right, so that's good, all right, so you're a natural athlete. There's a big distinction for natural athletes specifically and the life of their training and the expectations. I think some people skew what they think they can get maybe out of bodybuilding or physique sports in general. What are your thoughts on realistic expectations for natural athletes? And I'm thinking muscle growth, but I really mean the longevity stuff we're talking about here.

Jeff Alberts: 27:37

I mean, everything comes to an end right, and that's with anything in life. So I think here for me, like I thought about this the last few years, because I haven't really seen too much muscle size, like realistically I don't think I'm probably going to get any bigger, because I can tell my joints are kind of preventing me from lifting, probably you know, heavier loads and that type of thing, but also just age.

Jeff Alberts: 27:59

So it's accepting that like come to the conclusion like, okay, things are slower, especially with natural bodybuilding. It's slower. I think we just have to come to terms and embrace that. But it doesn't mean you can't have a long shelf life with progress. You've probably heard the five-year. You know shelf right.

Philip Pape: 28:17

It's like Genetic potential in five years. Yeah.

Jeff Alberts: 28:19

Yeah, five years, like I mean, that's assuming you're a perfect robot. Okay, yeah, maybe you get all that in five years. How many perfect robots are there? First year, you're learning how to lift. Still Second year you're like, okay, now I'm learning how to progress. Well, so you're probably, yeah, you're making, you're starting to really move. You're going from white to get into the brown belt, you get into the red and the black belts and things do start to slow. But who's to say that it's over in five years? You might see a little more growth from years five through 10. Look at Eric. Helms is a good example 41 years old and he's still making some pretty decent gains. They're not as fast as when he first started lifting, but for an advanced lifter they're kind of fast. It's like kind of seeing some nice changes and he's learning more about himself, though that's the thing. He's learning how his body still ticks.

Jeff Alberts: 29:12

Even myself, as you evolve, you learn yourself. Like years one through five, you might've done certain things. Years five through 10, you started changing, you're evolving. Years five through 10, you started changing, you're evolving. And then years 15 to 20, same thing. But progress is more than just putting tissue on, because if you're a competitive natural body or there's a skill component of learning how to diet, learning the pace of the diet, retaining muscle mass. That's something that I learned in when I was 38 years old. I got in our pro cards A little late in life, but I was 160 pounds. Two years later I competed as a pro. I was 170 pounds. It was a 10 pound difference. Everybody was blown away. They're like there's no way this guy's natural. He didn't gain 10 pounds of muscle in two years at 40 years old. No, I just learned how to diet better. I learned how to retain muscle better. So there's different levels and there's different ways to create progress outside of just like I've got bigger muscles.

Philip Pape: 30:07

When did you actually start seriously training? How old were you?

Jeff Alberts: 30:11

Well, I started lifting at 14. I've always been. I didn't know what I was doing, but I can go back to when I was a teenager. I was lifting hella hard. Like all I knew was lift hard and go to failure. Early on I had really fast development from 14 to 17. I packed on a decent amount of muscle and by the time I got to high school I was benching 330 at 165. So I had some pretty fast gains. And then since then it's kind of been like up and down, up and down, and that's just because of my knowledge level. Like back then there was no internet, so I was like kind of just doing things on my own, trying to figure stuff out. So there was a lot of ups and downs.

Philip Pape: 30:48

And when. The reason I ask so selfishly? But also again, I know a lot of guys like me who didn't start until, in my case, late thirties. I mean, I did CrossFit for like eight years up and down, but that was not lifting. And so I'm in my first one to five years, at the age of 44. And I don't even know if I've taken full advantage of that. But there's probably a lot of people wondering maybe, what's the potential for a 40-year-old? What's the potential for a 60-year-old?

Jeff Alberts: 31:12

Okay, let me ask you a question, as you brought up for yourself. So you've been hypertrophy lifting for five years, six years.

Philip Pape: 31:20

Since 2020.

Jeff Alberts: 31:25

2020. Out of the last four years.

Philip Pape: 31:26

How much of that time have you spent in a?

Jeff Alberts: 31:28

deficit Probably a year, so three years. Are those three years like well-structured training? I think so, yes.

Philip Pape: 31:34

I believe so.

Tony: 31:35

Nutrition's been on point.

Philip Pape: 31:37

Yeah, I mean, I'm a nutrition coach, I hope so yeah, there you go.

Jeff Alberts: 31:40

So you still, I mean, you've got three years of like really dedicated hypertrophy lifting.

Philip Pape: 31:45

Right, so there's a lot of potential.

Jeff Alberts: 31:46

Exactly, you're only 44. So you still have, like, probably a good decade ahead of you where you can probably continue to maximize yourself. Whether that's 1%, 10%, 50%, who knows, but the thought is is like I'm going to try.

Philip Pape: 32:07

I'm going to try. I'm going to put that effort in, I'm going to make sure all the big rocks are in place and let's see what happens. Yeah, I was going to ask a different twist on that. The question was going to be well then, somebody who's older, what are they never able to accomplish because they started late? And I think that's a terrible question because it doesn't matter it is right.

Philip Pape: 32:18

You know right Like, but people are thinking that you know right like, but people are thinking that you know people beat themselves up, like I wish.

Jeff Alberts: 32:23

I said when I was 20. What's the worst that could happen? If you don't try exactly, then you can get massively there.

Philip Pape: 32:28

That's where you're gonna fail is you're not trying yeah, that's good stuff, man, I have to say, for folks watching or listening like jeff peers deep into your soul and again, he's probably a really good coach for that reason I try to make the podcast as real as possible, like everyone. It's good. It's good.

Jeff Alberts: 32:44

You know how many sets should I be doing? That's what I was thinking. Let's be real. Let's talk like practical Yep.

Philip Pape: 32:49

I agree. Yeah, I've spent a lot of time talking about tactics and I agree it's more fun to get into philosophy and approach. Or they can reach out to guys like you and me and say, okay, now how do I personalize that for myself? But okay, so what was the next thing I wanted to cover here? Fatigue management is kind of another corollary and specifically what I'm thinking is you mentioned yourself joint health and a lot of guys or women I hear about their back, their low back fatigue. Everybody has back issues. We know that quote unquote of some kind as they get older. But lifters especially, who might be dead lifting a lot or doing some other movement, how do we manage all that? How do we manage fatigue management? I?

Jeff Alberts: 33:31

guess the question right your rest days, your sleep, your demand is going to be your training itself Could be cardio, could be steps, life stuff, work relationships. If you're in a deficit, let's say you're in a deficit, that's a demand. So you kind of see where you're at with the supply and demand. Obviously, if you're in, let's say, in the dieting phase, cutting phase, your demand is going to be higher than your supply. So from that perspective you have to understand, let's say, in the dieting phase, cutting phase, your demand is going to be higher than your supply. So from that perspective you have to understand like, okay, how long am I dieting? Is this a short-term cut? Is it a long-term cut?

Jeff Alberts: 34:10

Short-term cut, you might be able to get away with a few more things because it's shorter in nature, no-transcript, and that's what's really key when obviously most people's goals is they want to get bigger or they want to be leaner. So in order to do that you have to manage the fatigue. So it's pretty important that your performance is elevated as much as possible so you can maintain that muscle mass. And then you think about your pace too. When you're dieting down half to 1% of your body weight per week, anything more than that. It's going to be a grind. It's going to be harder to perform, it's going to be hard to recover. Life's going to suck. Your spouse isn't going to like you too much. You're going to be moody, cranky, those types of things. So you have to take all that into consideration, I mean. But the whole podcast could be about fatigue management.

Jeff Alberts: 35:06

Of course I mean you can look at like going back to the sports arena, I was looking up, I was hitting up Google a few years back on NBA basketball. I was trying to figure out the winning percentages of teams that played back-to-back games, because usually NBA schedules they'll play two or three games a week more in there. So the back-to-backs, the second game, the losing percentage was much lower than the first game. Of course you take into consideration some teams are better than others, but in general, like the losing percentage was higher on the second game, which makes sense because they're tired they played the day before.

Jeff Alberts: 35:42

So again like sometimes with training, when you're like if you're training, let's say, two, three, four days in a row, that fatigue builds up. Naturally it's going to build up if you're well-fed, but imagine if you're dieting Two, three, four, five, six training days in a row, like you start getting beat up towards the end of the week. You're feeling it. So sometimes it's like, okay, how can we manage that? It's like, instead of training two or three days in a row, why don't you go every other day? You train hard.

Jeff Alberts: 36:08

Like as bodybuilders, we train hard. So he's train hard, take a day off, recover. He'd be refreshed the next day. Then he'd take another day off or he can go two on one off. So looking at frequency, that's something you look at Intensity, not training as close to failure. Maybe that can help. Maybe dropping down some set volume, eating more food, those types of things, more sleep, like I mean. Just the list goes on and on. But again I think looking at bodybuilders per se is like probably not the area I usually look towards first. It's more like those other sports.

Philip Pape: 36:46

No, I like that. I took a note because this is a. I want to build off that later on for another episode Because, you know, using other sports as an analogy, I don't think enough people do that.

Jeff Alberts: 36:52

And boxing here you know, boxing, boxing, like right Boxer goes out there. It's a hard round. Like well, I got to go 12 rounds here. Like well, I got to go 12 rounds here. And if I'm not able to knock this opponent out in the next one or two rounds, I got to pace this. Oh, you know, you've heard this. Boxers like okay, they took a round off. What does that mean? They're staying on the outside. They're staying. They're not trying to get hit, they're just doing enough to get them through the round. Now I'm going to go sit, go in there for a day or two and I attack hard like I'm going to pull back. I'm going to have a day or two. I'm just not trained and recover. So every time I'm in there I'm like fresh and getting the most performance out of myself.

Tony: 37:36

My name is Tony. I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Wits and Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil. He's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view, is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells. He trains heavy not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice and I would strongly recommend you talk with him and he'll help you out.

Philip Pape: 38:19

All right. So a couple of things come to mind then from this. First is just the general thought for folks who think that there's only one way to solve fatigue and that is to stop doing the movement or to switch movements. And you didn't even go there. You said think about the supply and demand. Oftentimes it's the supply you need more of, or less of the demand, depending on what's possible. You mentioned pacing just being a way to move your training around to help with the fatigue, but you're still getting the same, potentially the same, volume and intensity, even though those are other variables. What are your thoughts, then, on the opposite structure for helping with fatigue? And that is, let's say, you're doing three days a week and you switch to six days a week, but half the sessions. Is that a strategy?

Jeff Alberts: 39:03

That's a strategy.

Philip Pape: 39:04

Yeah.

Jeff Alberts: 39:05

So if you're doing, let's say just, let's just use whole sets of a workout, let's say you're doing 20 sets and you take it down to 10 and you're spreading it all out, yeah, I mean, it's going to be easier to get through the training session Result theory, of course easier to get through the session than maybe your recovery better. So the question then becomes you got to pay attention to is like okay, if you're going from three days. I don't know how your organ is three days, If it's, you know, one on one off, one on one off, or it's every other day.

Jeff Alberts: 39:31

Now you're going six straight days, so then you have to kind of pay attention to what are things feeling like on day four, day five and day six. Even though you've cut the volume in half, you still want to take notes on that, because even though you're doing less work too like think of your connective tissue you're using your connective tissue six days out of the week instead of three, even though it's less work. So you still have to just pay attention to all those variables. In theory it makes sense, but again you got to pay attention to it and personalize it for you.

Philip Pape: 39:58

Yeah, makes sense. So connective tissue again, segue, good segue. Let's talk about that. The joint health, the connective tissue. Maybe again there's some misconceptions there. Some people oversimplify this stuff like, well, if you lift heavy it's bad for your joints. We know that's not necessarily the case, but what are your thoughts on connected tissue, tendon health and things like that for older folks? Am I an older folk? I guess there's a correlation with age right. You said it yourself with a. I guess there's a correlation with age right you said it yourself.

Jeff Alberts: 40:32

It's hard for me to say how other people feel, what they feel. Like I know how I feel and I've noticed the last few years like, yeah, I got to pay closer attention to it. And, like you said, it's not so much the load, because sometimes I can handle load pretty well and sometimes the opposite. You would think like, okay, if the load is heavy hurts, I'm gonna go light low, but then your reps go way up. So now you're getting more. Like, yeah, now you're doing like 100 reps instead of 20, so that can wear your connective tissue out too. So, like, for me, what really helps me is rep speed, like rep cadence. Sometimes, like in the moment I'm controlling that, like you know, like when you're driving a car on a road, you feel a bump you're the moment I'm controlling that.

Jeff Alberts: 41:06

Like you know, like when you're driving a car on a road, you feel a bump, you're like, okay, I'm gonna avoid that bump and move the steering wheel or the traffic in front of me slowing down, put my foot on the brakes. That's kind of like I think, about my rep speed. I'm paying attention how things feel. So if my shoulder, like my right shoulder, gets pissed off quite a lot, like when I'm pressing, so sometimes like my elbow, I'll have to do this or I'll shift it in, I'll even move my shoulder in a little bit those types of things just to avoid, like you know, aches and pains that's really good actually.

Jeff Alberts: 41:35

Rep speed, cadence, grip width, grip angle those are really really good tweaks yeah, like, yeah, like, even like uh on my uh, like I do this movement, it's kind of like a hybrid press, fly, fly. But it's more like a press and a fly at the same time. So the way I hold the dumbbells in my palm someone asked me about this, like you know, about their shoulders and that movement, like I hold it this way, I didn't really realize I was doing it and the reason why it was more instinctual. But I realized is, instead of having that handle like flush and you're gripping it hard the dumbbells, like sitting in my hand and then put the tips of my fingers right in the middle of the handle, the pads of your fingers and thumb over.

Jeff Alberts: 42:13

Yeah, like it just eliminates the shoulder discomfort I have. I don't know why it just does. It's more of an instinctual. But those are the types of things that's worth exploring, whether you're young or old. Like if you're experiencing any type of discomfort, you play around with grip, spacing the way you're holding things red cadence Because oftentimes we'll look at like, okay, should we be doing like slow eccentrics? Should we do a fast, explosive concentrics? Because we're looking at science stuff. It's like how about you go by what feels actually comfortable for you?

Philip Pape: 42:47

Agree, yeah, like for me recently. I had rotator cuff surgery last year and for me, pausing, just pausing, made all the difference.

Jeff Alberts: 42:55

That helps. Yes, I forgot about those.

Philip Pape: 42:58

Even in like bicep curls, you just pause at the bottom and it makes it harder in a different way, even range of motion too.

Jeff Alberts: 43:04

Like I'll play around with that, like I'll cut range of motion short sometimes if there's. You know if I'm experiencing some pain, whether it's at the top or the bottom. Whatever I was doing a couple years back I was doing smith machine bench crosses, but I set the safety arms up to about two-thirds range of the motion.

Philip Pape: 43:21

I cut the bottom, like the stretch portion, out so it's a pin a pin, press a pin, press a pin, bench press.

Jeff Alberts: 43:26

Yeah, just like slow, eccentric Cause it didn't really bother my shoulders too much. Slow on the way down, maybe I don't know close to four seconds. Pause it at the bottom kills the momentum and then when I would start the movement. So instead of thinking of pushing off the pins with a lot of force, like a race car, for example, more like a diesel truck, like, let me just move it slow with a lot of torque, ease into it, ease into it, and then, as it goes, the bar's traveling up, then I'm pressing faster and that's to avoid the shoulder discomfort. Now the question becomes is that more effective than like just the traditional cadence, or more explosive using heavier loads? Mate, as long as this is why I see it, I could be wrong, but as long as I'm going to failure or close to it, I'm probably getting a stimulus regardless.

Philip Pape: 44:14

And, as you mentioned before, the alternative is you're not going to do it because it hurts. It hurts, yeah, exactly.

Jeff Alberts: 44:17

And it's a baseline too, because even though let's say it is suboptimal. It's my baseline, it's what I can do comfortably, and the goal is still the same. The goal is still to try to increase more load over time and more reps over time. So I'm still elevating performance and elevating volume.

Philip Pape: 44:31

Yeah, I like that. And there's so many movements, angles, ranges of motion across all the possible exercises that you could complement it with things to kind of fill in the gap, the example of a race or a car engine. I'm thinking like you know physics and power and explosiveness and speed. There's a whole velocity component to it. That is kind of the principle behind all this, almost, if we're to sum it up so that when you're listening to the show, if you want to train next, you know next time you go train, experiment with that, both at the bottom of the rep, like when you yeah, when you start a rep out, they think of it like if you, let's say, you're at a red light and you're in this Porsche, right, it's got some just high end, you know torque.

Jeff Alberts: 45:13

light turns green, yeah, you punch it, what's going to happen? More than likely the tires are going to spin out. You need the back end starting to squirrel anymore. It's like there's a lot of torque though, there's a lot of power, but there's more control. So that's kind of how I think about when I start some of my exercises out. I think more like a diesel truck versus the race car and it's in a sense it kind of keeps the tension where you want it throughout the entirety of the rep.

Philip Pape: 45:44

And that mind muscle there. Yeah, I'm imagining wheels spinning on my tendons and like wearing them down with the race car. That's good stuff, yeah. No, this is great being mindful and reflective of every rep, just to make sure, so like if we circle back tendon joint health, you know, rather than making drastic changes, rather than hopping around, tweak the movement you think is the offender, see if it makes a difference. Grip with angle, play with different bars too, like they've got multi-grip bars and you've got camber bars and like all this fun stuff. You could mix it up. Yeah, even like I'm thinking pull-ups and chin-ups. Again, you might find it's a game changer to just widen or shorten up that grip or go neutral. So good stuff, all right.

Philip Pape: 46:28

So I'm looking at my questions. We actually covered a lot of what I was going to ask. You even talked about, like you know, cutting and dieting, how the rate of your cut is extremely important and it adds to the stress if you go faster. I think that is really important because, rather than it being a training issue, it could be a resource issue. Right, it could be a food issue. And unless you have some timeline perhaps which I know bodybuilders do and they have a show if you can plan ahead far enough. It sounds like you know taking the most conservative approach that still gets you the result and doesn't impede too much is a good idea. But what about? What about the psychological toll of it? Taking too long, right Like now we're?

Tony: 47:05

getting into dieting here. No, I like it, okay, yeah because, it's a different perspective.

Philip Pape: 47:08

Yeah Right, it's like long and slow or really fast or super fast, like I know.

Jeff Alberts: 47:13

The answer is it depends, because different people respond differently, but it does depend, but I tend to lean more towards being conservative, because when you're conservative, you, in a sense, you have a bigger playbook. If you're giving yourself a short timeline to make something happen, it's almost like you have to be like perfect, here's a good way to think about it. Like if I gave you 30 seconds to tie both shoes probably get the job done pretty easily, right, and your shoes are going to look pretty clean, like you know, okay those bows look really good.

Jeff Alberts: 47:44

But if I said I'm going to give you 10 seconds or maybe eight seconds to tie those two shoes and I want you to make it look really good, chances are it's not going to look that great and the process itself is going to be super stressful yeah.

Philip Pape: 47:56

You're going to fumble through. Yeah, yeah, right.

Jeff Alberts: 47:58

Or or you're piloting an airplane and I give you a mile to get this plane off the ground, but then I gave you a quarter mile. What's the experience going to be like in those two different situations? What are the passengers going to experience? It's going to be a smooth takeoff in a mile. We're building speed up. We're going to get the plane off the ground. We're going to gradually get it to altitude. But quarter mile is like man, you better make sure you didn't eat too close to that takeoff, because you're going to lose your lunch.

Philip Pape: 48:26

And, Jeff, I'll tell you, on a landing it's even worse. I used to fly planes and when I had to do a short runway landing, this is just small Cessnas but like if I had my wife or a friend in there and there was a crosswind you're talking a weird angle and a steep angle and it's just they all got sick. So you a good example.

Jeff Alberts: 48:43

Am I good with the takeoff or do I need to change that up? I?

Philip Pape: 48:46

like to use that one. No, takeoffs are good too, because you need to crank up the throttle and you need to, but you have to have a minimum regardless, for physics you know to like work, but yeah, yeah, it's good. Okay, that's good to hear, because we do sometimes equivocate on all that and it's like, well, whatever works for you, but, like you said, you get more flexibility and options when it's a longer time frame and you're more conservative.

Jeff Alberts: 49:07

When it's short, though, when you're dieting like if it's short in nature and you're trying you know, let's say you're trying to lose 20 pounds in eight weeks, 20 or 10 weeks, even, something like that, that's super fast. Like you're going to have to be very aggressive. So you may think like, okay, I'm going to get this over with sooner, but you're going to suffer more in that time span, versus like I'm going to double up that timeline because now you're going to have a more conservative pace. So what you're actually experiencing is you're not as fatigued, so it's easier to cope in that situation. Versus like, oh gosh, and I'm only eating 1500 calories and I got to do like all these cardio sessions just to get this fat loss off. And then you're training, training stuff.

Jeff Alberts: 49:45

So the end goal is to look the part. It's not if I hit a certain number, it's actually, it's more visual than your bodybuilder or even if it's a cosmetic goal, like you want to look the part. At the end of it you want to have your muscle intact. So I always feel like you're giving yourself more time. And then the life factors too. You know you think about a short timeline. You may not have the luxury of, like, being able to take your wife out for dinner on a Saturday night because, oh, I got up to 1500. I can't do it. I am on so low calories, but I have doubled the timeline. I'm like, well, I'm going to create a buffer, I'm going to take my wife out and I'll have a good time and still make my goals.

Philip Pape: 50:21

Yeah, I love. I love that too, because the longer it is and the more you stretch it out, the more resilience you have against all of those things happening. Because life throws unexpected things along the way, including injuries, including sickness, including something with your kid or your wife or whatever. And to be able to, if you're going at a conservative rate, interrupting that has a much less impact as well. Right, because not dieting for a few days when you're already at a very low, a very conservative deficit, isn't a big deal, but if it's a four or six-week mini cut, all of a sudden one day makes a big difference.

Jeff Alberts: 50:57

Another thing to think about. Let's say you have to do a long-term dieting phase. It doesn't mean you have to be downhill the whole way through no-transcript or less, like how you do things when you're not dieting.

Philip Pape: 51:33

Right, just scaled a little bit.

Jeff Alberts: 51:34

Yeah, exactly. So that's again. It's going back to practicality and sustainability. So sometimes we got to think about okay, how's this going to impact me? When it's all said and done?

Philip Pape: 51:51

And I don't think that far ahead. Yeah, I'm all for that, that flexibility. I inadvertently went into what I I did a podcast about it a while back called my stair step fat loss approach and it was just literally because of what happened to my shoulder and needing to recover several times over the last few months, I got out of my dieting phase. I'm like you know what. This is much better to just go three weeks on one week off. Three weeks on one week, kind of like a stair, you know staircase, and that relief from that week or two of maintenance can be huge.

Jeff Alberts: 52:11

Made a big difference.

Philip Pape: 52:12

yeah, the dieting almost doesn't feel like dieting. It's almost this huge sustainable thing, cool man, all right, so, in the interest of time, I just wanted to ask you if there's anything we didn't cover or a question you wish I had asked from here, and what your answer would be.

Jeff Alberts: 52:23

No, I thought you did great. I recovered a lot.

Philip Pape: 52:27

I'm good. I thought you did great too, man, it was fun Now.

Jeff Alberts: 52:30

I'm like man. I need to learn more about flying now.

Philip Pape: 52:33

I could hook you up with some people that know a lot more than I do, but yeah, it was fun. I stopped when it became the gas became too expensive and I had kids. I was like I can see that I do know some pilots being having worked aerospace industry. So anyway, man, where do you want people to learn about you? Jeff, reach out to you 3dmj underscore.

Jeff Alberts: 52:52

Godfather, go to youtube in 3d muscle journey cool.

Philip Pape: 52:56

I'll put those in the show notes and Jeff's super responsive and, uh, really good content online as well. You wouldn't believe he's he's, whatever age he is. I'm not even going to say a number because you know it doesn't matter, does it?

Jeff Alberts: 53:07

43 plus 10. There you go.

Philip Pape: 53:10

Yeah, all right, man, it's great to have you on. I really appreciate you coming on the show.

Jeff Alberts: 53:14

All right, thanks again.

7 Sleep Quality Metrics You NEED to Track for Faster Gains and Fat Loss (Root Cause Analysis) | Ep 243

Your wearable says you got 8 hours of sleep, but you're still waking up exhausted. Your sleep efficiency looks good, but your energy levels tell a different story.

Learn the 7 key sleep metrics that actually matter for muscle gains and fat loss, plus how to use Root Cause Analysis, an engineering method that reveals the true sources of poor sleep quality hiding beneath your data.

Whether you're dealing with low energy, poor recovery, or sleep numbers that don't match how you feel, this episode gives you a systematic approach to optimize your sleep for better results in the gym.

A special thank you to Aubrey from Wits & Weights Physique University who inspired this episode with her questions about sleep quality metrics!

Main Takeaways:

• The 7 essential sleep metrics and their target ranges for optimal recovery

• A simple but powerful technique to uncover your hidden sleep disruptors

• Why going to the gym at THIS time of day might be your secret weapon for better sleep

• How to test solutions for better sleep based on your personal metrics

The Truth About Sleep Quality Metrics: What Actually Matters for Building Muscle and Losing Fat

Sleep tracking has become increasingly popular among fitness enthusiasts. But with dozens of metrics available on modern wearables, which ones actually impact your gains? Let's cut through the noise and focus on what matters.

The Problem with Traditional Sleep Tracking

Most people focus solely on total sleep time or a generic "sleep score." While getting enough hours is important, it's just the baseline. Your wearable might show 8 hours of sleep, but if you're still waking up exhausted, something's off.

7 Sleep Metrics That Actually Matter

1. Total Sleep Time (7-9 hours)

Don't obsess over hitting exactly 8 hours. Some people thrive on 6.5, while others need 9. The key is consistency and watching how your body responds.

2. Sleep Efficiency (Target: 85%+)

Think of this like your workout efficiency. Are you actually sleeping during your time in bed, or just lying there scrolling through Instagram?

3. Sleep Latency (Target: Under 20 minutes)

This measures how long it takes to fall asleep. If you're consistently taking longer, it's your first clue something's disrupting your sleep system.

4. Wake After Sleep Onset (WASO) (Target: Under 20 minutes)

This reveals hidden stressors keeping you awake throughout the night. High WASO often means compromised recovery.

5. Deep Sleep Duration (Target: 15-20% of total sleep)

This is where the magic happens for muscle recovery. Miss this target, and your gains could suffer.

6. REM Sleep Duration (Target: 20-25% of total sleep)

Critical for mental recovery and decision-making. Low REM sleep might explain those diet-breaking cravings.

7. Sleep Consistency (Target: 30-minute window)

The most underrated metric. Your body craves routine, just like with training and nutrition.

Using Root Cause Analysis to Fix Sleep Issues

Having the numbers is one thing. Knowing what to do with them is another. Here's how to systematically improve your sleep:

Step 1: Identify the Problem Metric

Don't just say "I sleep badly." Pick a specific metric that's off target.

Step 2: Ask "Why" Five Times

Example:

• Why is my sleep efficiency low? Because I'm awake too much.

• Why am I awake? Because I keep waking up.

• Why do I keep waking up? Because my mind races.

• Why does my mind race? Because of work deadlines.

• Why do deadlines bother me? Because I'm not setting boundaries.

Step 3: Create Solutions

Often, the fix has nothing to do with sleep itself. One of my clients improved their deep sleep simply by moving workouts from evening to morning.

Making It Work for You

The key isn't collecting data for its own sake. It's about using that data to make informed decisions about your training, recovery, and lifestyle. Start by tracking these seven metrics, then use Root Cause Analysis to systematically address any issues.

Remember: Good sleep isn't about following generic advice or trying random "hacks." It's about understanding your personal sleep patterns and optimizing them for maximum gains.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Let's say you just got seven or eight hours of sleep, but you're waking up exhausted, or the numbers on your wearable just don't make sense. Your sleep efficiency looks good, but your energy levels tell a different story. And maybe you're tracking a bunch of metrics, maybe you're not and you're following all the standard advice and the hacks blue light, caffeine, no screen time but something still isn't working with your sleep. Today we're going to get into this what sleep metrics actually matter, what they mean for your recovery and performance, and how to use an engineering approach to identify and fix the real issues disrupting your sleep. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 0:55

Today we're talking about sleep quality. Measuring sleep quality is not as simple as just looking at the total hours or a single score on, say, your Oura ring or your Fitbit or other wearable. When these numbers don't match how we feel, that is when we need a different way, a systematic way to decode what's really happening during those hours in bed. And that's exactly what we're covering in today's episode First, the key metrics that actually matter for measuring sleep quality and then how to use root cause analysis to fix any issues we uncover. Now I want to give a shout out to Aubrey, who is in our group coaching program. She gave us the idea for this topic. I think it is a very critical topic because we all have wearables many of us do and we track all these metrics and it can be confusing and we're like, hey, I'm getting this much deep sleep. What does that mean? What should I be aiming for and how do I link it to how I feel so that I can perform better? And for those of us who want to be lifting and building muscle, we want to be recovered. That can be even more critical. Now, before we dive into this, if you enjoy this show, if you want more content that brings this engineering, this systematic mindset, this data-based way of thinking that allows you to really unlock what's going on with your body, hit the follow button just so you get notified of the next episode, and it will help others find the show as well and ensures that you just won't miss another episode like this.

Philip Pape: 2:21

All right, let's talk about what we are measuring when it comes to sleep quality. You've probably seen dozens of metrics on your wearable device. They're all a little bit different, they all have different levels of accuracy, and what I want to do today is just distill it down to the seven metrics that matter most, and I'm going to give you a target for them. So this is a very prescriptive episode. The first metric is total sleep time. Now, this is the baseline.

Philip Pape: 2:49

This is where you want to get that seven to nine hours of sleep and the thing is, this number doesn't really mean anything without context, and what I mean is you could get consistently six and a half hours of sleep but be pretty refreshed, or you could be getting a very a half hours of sleep but be pretty refreshed, or you could be getting a very restless eight hours of sleep. However, if you are getting far fewer than this range so if you're getting six or less on a regular basis then that could be a problem regardless. In other words, forget about the rest of the metrics until you fix that, even though those other metrics can help. You really have the low-hanging fruit to go after here, which is hours per sleep. I mean hours, excuse me, hours per night. Now, I know many of us. It's very difficult to achieve eight or nine hours, unless your schedule allows for it, or you're retired or some situation like that. But everyone has kind of that sweet spot where they know that it's just too restricted in their sleep and others, you know, six and a half, seven hours, maybe more than enough. It always helps to experiment with more. So anyway, let's start. There's the baseline getting enough sleep. I think you knew that, but it's one of the seven metrics, all right, metrics.

Philip Pape: 3:58

Metric number two is sleep efficiency. This is the percentage of time in bed that you actually sleep. And so think about, from the moment you lay down, put your head on the pillow assuming you're done, you know, doing something active, like reading a book, something like that and then up until the time you wake up and get out of bed. We want 85% of that time to be actually sleeping right. Think of this, like your, you know your workout efficiency right. Are you spending your gym time training or are you scrolling on your phone? So I'm a big fan of efficiency and I think you are. So are you actually sleeping? And that is gonna be another indicator of are you actually making the most of the time in bed? Are you setting yourself up for success ahead of time outside the bedroom, before you get in to give you that high level of efficiency? All right.

Philip Pape: 4:47

Metric number three is sleep latency. This is how long it takes to fall asleep, and ideally this is under 20 minutes, under 20 minutes. Now, I know personally it takes me about five, 10 minutes to fall asleep. Whether that's good or not for an individual, it depends, obviously, if you're just crashing because you're so exhausted day after day, that's a different thing. But conversely, if you have insomnia or you're being kept awake for whatever reason, that is your first clue that something might be off with your sleep system. All right, sleep latency under 20 minutes.

Philip Pape: 5:21

The fourth metric is wake after sleep onset or WASO. I don't know if people pronounce that, but wake after sleep onset is the total time that you spend awake after you initially fall asleep. Let me repeat that again it's the time, it's the awake time throughout the night after you've initially fallen asleep. And if you have like an aura ring or another wearable that shows you a little graph throughout the night with the different types of sleep and you'll see at the very top usually is higher number than that reveals that you have something stressing you out that keeps waking you up. You know, as long as it's not your spouse kicking you and waking you up and it's internal to you. That's what it reveals.

Philip Pape: 6:15

All right, let's continue with the fifth metric, which is deep sleep duration. Now, this is where the magic happens for recovery physical recovery, cognitive recovery or no, pardon me, that's physical recovery. The next one is cognitive, physical recovery. That's deep sleep, which you know, for those of us lifting, where we have lots of stress on our muscular system during the day, we really want that and we want to target 15 to 20% of total sleep time. So you notice a pattern here 20, 20, 20. It's kind of a good number to remember. We want at least 15 to 20%.

Philip Pape: 6:52

Sometimes, when you look at deep sleep on your graph and you see, oh, I slept eight hours and and an hour and a half or two hours was deep sleep, you might think, oh, that doesn't seem very much. Is that okay? Yeah, it's okay, it's totally normal to be. If you're at least 15%, it's probably okay. If you're not hitting that number, then your training recovery is gonna be compromised. And that's where, like with my clients when they submit their biofeedback to me, and their recovery and soreness is higher than it should be given, than it should be given all the other variables, given their food and everything else.

Philip Pape: 7:22

We look at sleep quality and even if they're getting enough sleep, there could be a sleep quality issue preventing deep sleep. The sixth metric, number six, is REM sleep duration. Now this is for mental recovery and again, here's a little bit higher. We want to aim for 20 to 25%, but again, the magic number 20 is a nice theme here, right? Deep sleep is 15 to 20. Rem sleep is 20 to 25% of your total sleep time. So REM should be a little bit longer than deep sleep. And this directly impacts your focus in your decision-making, which again translates to everything you do, including your training. But also you know how emotionally susceptible you might be to decision fatigue, with your diet, for example. So if you're worried about cravings and over-consuming food, oftentimes a lack of sleep and low sleep quality is what leads to these higher cravings, a very well-established link in the literature.

Philip Pape: 8:21

And then the final metric and you're probably thinking is Philip going to mention this as a metric is sleep consistency, and I think this is the most important in a way, assuming you have your bases covered, like the hours of sleep, I think consistency, the variation in your sleep and wake times or the lack thereof, right, the very low variation where you are going to bed and waking up within about the same 30 minute window every single day, including weekends. This might be the most underrated metric of all, and you can extrapolate that idea to anything you're doing related to your body. It has to do with our rhythms, circadian rhythms, ultradian rhythms, the idea that the body relaxes and responds very well homeostatically and metabolically to consistency consistent eating patterns and eating windows, consistent amounts of food, consistent training, consistent moving and, of course, consistent sleep. All right Now. And, of course, consistent sleep, all right Now. This is where most sleep advice stops right, like you've got your numbers, you know your targets, but then what do you actually do when they're not where they should be? And I think with wearables, that's the trap that we get into. I have an aura ring and I love looking at the data, but then it's like what do you do with it? Same thing with our training, with our nutrition. It's great to track. I highly encourage tracking, but oftentimes people say, well, I tracked my calories and I didn't lose weight. Well, tracking doesn't do that for you. Tracking just gives you the information to be informed from which you can make decisions and for sleep.

Philip Pape: 9:55

This is where root cause analysis comes in, which is the engineering framework I am linking with in this episode. So root cause analysis kind of what it sounds like, right, it's a method engineers use to dig beneath the surface level symptoms and find the true, the root source, the root cause of the problem. Right, not just the surface thing that you put a bandaid on, but the actual root cause. It's kind of like when we have pain in our joints and you think that it's because you're doing a specific lift, but in reality it's some other lifestyle modification or movement pattern you're doing that's leading down the chain to that problem. Okay, so let's apply root cause analysis to your sleep quality.

Philip Pape: 10:41

So step one is finding your specific problem using the metrics that we just discussed, the seven metrics. Don't just say, oh, I sleep badly or I have poor sleep. We need to identify exactly which ones are off target. Maybe your sleep efficiency is low, maybe your deep sleep percentage is below 15%, it's, you know, 10% or very low. So that's step one, of course, is just identifying the information and which ones are an issue. Step two is using what engineers call the five wise technique, and I think I did an episode specifically on this in the past, but it's a very common framework I use with myself and with clients all the time, and you can use it any day, for any issue, and it's super effective.

Philip Pape: 11:21

Okay, and here's how it goes. Let's say that your sleep efficiency is only 75%, right, instead of 80. What's the target for that? 85%? I'm going crazy here. So let's say it's only 75%. So you would ask yourself a why? Question. Why is my sleep efficiency low? Because I'm spending too much time awake in bed. Why is my sleep efficiency low Because I'm spending too much time awake in bed? Why am I awake so much? Because I keep waking up through the night. Why do I keep waking up? Because my mind starts racing when I do. Why does my mind race? Because I'm worried about work deadlines. Why am I worried about deadlines? Because I'm not setting clear boundaries with my time, and so you can keep asking why it doesn't have to just be five, you can go three or you can go eight, whatever gets you to the root cause. And notice what happened there. We started with a sleep metric. Right, our sleep efficiency is low. Okay, that's not the problem. The problem is a lifestyle factor that we need to address, related to setting boundaries with your time, better time management, whatever it is, and with fitness and nutrition. We often find that's the case Like it has nothing to do with the fitness and nutrition. I mean almost never.

Philip Pape: 12:32

I just talked to a new client yesterday. We did our onboarding call and immediately two or three of these types of problems or challenges came up, such as, you know, skipping workouts, and so I asked why, well, sometimes I run out of time. Well, why? Well, I try to go in the afternoon and then work gets late. Why, why, why. And so it came down to why don't we just work out of the morning, right? Or why don't we work out three days instead of four? You know, you can get down to the real thing so that you no longer have the excuse, and it might reveal connections that you might never have considered right.

Philip Pape: 13:07

Another one she came up with was meal planning. She says I don't have time for meal prep. I said why, well, meal prep takes like four hours. Well, why? Well, I'm trying to make all these fancy recipes and, you know, prepackage them. Oh, okay, so then we can get to the root cause of hey, how about you just get a family package of chicken breasts and a giant thing of green beans and cook them in like half an hour on a Sunday, and then you have your lunch for the whole week. By the way, do you like eating the same thing every day? Oh yeah, no problem. Great, perfect solution for you, right? Okay?

Philip Pape: 13:37

So that's step two is doing the five why technique to get at the root cause. And so that's step two is doing the 5-Y technique to get at the root cause. And then step three is creating the solution tree. So you're going to map out the connections from your root cause, because it could be multiple, all right, so it could be multiple. So you're doing your 5-Y and then you're doing it a few more times and then you can identify the easiest place to make a change, right?

Philip Pape: 14:03

So in the example I gave you, setting better work boundaries might have a bigger impact on sleep than taking another supplement, right? Like I just need melatonin, or buying a better mattress or wearing a sleep mask. Like there's, you know, uh, different connections where you can make changes, and some changes for you will be more low hanging fruit than others, and then it could be something else for someone else. And then the last step, of course, is test it out and verify that the change actually helps. If you make one change at a time and then you track guess what? The exact same metrics we just talked about, which you're already tracking, you'll see the difference. You'll see the difference and I can give you a couple simple examples for me. Right, if I drink alcohol, I know my HRV is going to be off, my resting heart rate is going to be high, my resilience score goes down and I don't feel as well rested. It all links together. It all links together. If I don't wear a sleep mask, sometimes my sleep quality is lower because of all the blue light leaking in from, like our night lights and other lights in the house. And you just start to make these connections.

Philip Pape: 15:04

Now here's something fascinating that I've noticed working with clients the solution to poor sleep often has nothing to do with sleep itself. Right, I think I've kind of alluded to this a couple of times with my other examples I had. I had a client whose sleep percentage was really low, like consistently low, and we just did this simple why technique, the five whys, and we discovered, okay, he's training close, too close to bedtime. I had just assumed he was training around four because he had been training in the afternoon, but it was actually getting closer and closer to bedtime and then his core temperature was going up. His cortisol was, you know, getting thrown off. And again, this is not a cortisol is a root of all problems, issue whatsoever. Cortisol is just a downstream indicator of stuff. Um, and so again, guess what? We moved his workouts to the mornings. It instantly improved his sleep metrics.

Philip Pape: 15:49

By the way, that is one of my favorite hacks to train in the morning. Don't tell me that you're not a morning person. Think about it and and see if it. Try it out. That's what I would say. Try it out because it has so many benefits. It allows you to manage your time because you get it out of the way. Now your time is yours for the rest of the day. It's gives you a big energy boost in the morning. It actually helps with your stress and your cortisol throughout the day by taking care of that active, pent up energy in the morning. Um, you sleep better when you train early in the day, and then it's often easier to manage your diet because now you've already accounted for the training window and now the rest of the day kind of falls in line. It's predictable, right. So there's a lot of benefits.

Philip Pape: 16:27

Okay, that was a side of a side thing, but I think it is one important way to potentially improve sleep for a lot of people. So you probably know that I love combining these precise measurements with systematic problem solving. The numbers tell us what's happening, but the engineering approach shows us why, and then that is where the solutions emerge. All right. So measuring sleep quality, it's not just collecting data for its own sake. Right, we want to use the data in an intelligent way to improve your recovery, your performance, your health, your cravings, your fat loss, your muscle building, all of that fun stuff. And if you combine those any metrics, really, you can apply this to your food tracking, to your biofeedback, to your lifting progress. You combine it with simple root cause analysis, like we talked about here.

Philip Pape: 17:13

I literally gave you the whole framework, the five why technique. It's not that hard. You can, number one, know exactly which aspects of the thing in this case sleep need attention. Number two, you could identify the true source of any issues. And then, number three, make targeted changes and at the end of the day, you are in control. It is fully under your control to improve your sleep, and it's not just following like the list of hacks. Here's 10 hacks to improve your sleep. It's not that. It's understanding your personal sleep patterns and then systematically optimizing them.

Philip Pape: 17:42

All right again, if you enjoyed today's episode, if you want more of this type of content, please hit the follow button. Support me by doing that. That would be amazing. I get to see how many followers we have and then it helps others find the show. It helps with the algorithm and you can reach more people who can benefit from these things and also share this episode with anybody you feel is struggling with sleep. Save, bookmark, add it to a playlist, whatever, so that you get it in the future, because I think the information here is among the most valuable that I've ever shared when it comes to sleep and will help you tremendously in one of the things that will unlock tons of recovery and gains in the gym and success with your diet. All right until next time, keep using those wits, lifting some weights and remember, sometimes the best solution is hiding in your own data just waiting to be discovered. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

You Can Build Muscle FASTER Than We Thought (Without More Fat Gain) | Ep 242

Can you build muscle faster than we thought... WITHOUT gaining more fat as you bulk? What if the current advice to on rate of gain is actually holding you back?

Philip (@witsandweights) shares groundbreaking research that shows you can gain muscle faster than you thought - without getting bogged down by excess fat. He breaks down the latest science into simple, actionable tips for beginners, intermediates, and advanced lifters. Whether you're just starting or a seasoned lifter aiming to push past your current limits, Philip shares practical tips on tailoring your muscle-building pace based on your experience level. Tune in for a fresh perspective on building the body you want!

📲 For the exact steps to set up your next bulking phase for substantial muscle gains, download my free Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint (updated for 2025)  or go to witsandweights.com/free.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:11 Traditional bulking advice and why it’s outdated
2:06 Philip’s muscle-building program update
3:49 Why are recommendations changing?
5:41 Gain faster now
10:41 For optimal muscle gain
14:29 Tone up smart and assess your training experience
18:30 Determining your training level and rate of gain
20:23 Consistent progression and monitoring results
21:39 Importance of quality nutrition
23:37 Nutrient partitioning abilities

Episode resources:

• FREE Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint (over 25 pages!)

• Greg Nuckols Article – How Fast Should You Gain Weight When Bulking?

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS – Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

Related episode:

• The Hardgainers Guide to Outsmarting Your Metabolism and Maximizing Muscle Gain

New Science Shows You Can Build Muscle Faster (Without Getting Fat)

For years, I've told clients to gain around 0.2-0.3% of body weight per week when building muscle. This wasn't just my recommendation – it was the standard evidence-based advice for minimizing fat gain during a bulk. But science evolves, and new research has completely changed our understanding of optimal rates of muscle gain.

The Evolution of Muscle-Building Science

Recent studies show we can gain muscle faster than previously thought, with less fat accumulation than we feared. This is game-changing news for anyone trying to build their ideal physique, whether you're just starting or you've been lifting for years.

Why the Old Recommendations Were Too Conservative

The previous guidelines were based on limited research – just two key studies. Now, with five well-designed studies examining different rates of weight gain, we have a much clearer picture of how the body responds to various bulking approaches.

The New Science of Muscle Gain

Here's what the latest research reveals about optimal rates of muscle gain:

• Beginners: Can gain up to 0.5-0.8% body weight per week with minimal fat gain

• Intermediates: Can effectively gain 0.3-0.5% body weight per week

• Advanced: Should stay in the range of 0.15-0.35% body weight per week

Three Major Insights About Building Muscle

1. Training Experience Matters More Than We Thought

Your training status significantly influences how aggressively you can bulk:

• Beginners have incredible muscle-building potential

• Intermediates can handle more aggressive gains than previously believed

• Advanced lifters still need more precise approaches

2. The Sweet Spot is Higher Than Previously Believed

The body is more capable of using extra nutrients for muscle growth than we realized, especially early in your training career. This means you can push the rate of gain higher without excessive fat accumulation.

3. Better Muscle-to-Fat Ratio Than Expected

At moderate rates of gain, about 70-75% of weight gained can be lean mass. Even with faster gains, fat accumulation isn't as dramatic as once feared. This completely changes the old belief that "gaining too fast means it's all fat."

How to Implement the New Recommendations

Assess Your Training Level

1. Beginner: Still adding weight to lifts almost every session

2. Intermediate: Making consistent but slower progress

3. Advanced: Progress comes in small increments over time

Calculate Your Target Rate

Use these guidelines based on your experience level:

• Beginners: Start at 0.5% body weight/week

• Intermediates: Aim for 0.3-0.4% body weight/week

• Advanced: Target 0.15-0.35% body weight/week

Monitor These Key Metrics

• Daily weight (use weekly averages)

• Training performance

• Body measurements

• Progress photos

• Energy and recovery markers

The Bottom Line

Being too conservative with your rate of gain might actually be holding back your muscle growth. While you still need to train hard and eat properly, don't be afraid to push the envelope a bit more than previously recommended. Your body is smarter at nutrient partitioning than we once believed – especially when you provide the right training stimulus.

Want to implement these new recommendations? Download my completely revised Muscle Building Nutrition Blueprint.

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been following the standard advice of gaining weight slowly and methodically to build muscle, including advice that I've given on this show, you might be too conservative. New research has changed our understanding of how quickly you can gain muscle while keeping fat gain minimized, and I mean quite completely changed, because what we thought was optimal might actually be cutting your gains in half. Today, I'm breaking down the latest science that's forcing us to rethink what we knew about the rate of building muscle and why. This is actually great news for anyone trying to pack on size. Whether you're a beginner who can gain faster than ever, or an experienced lifter who needs to find your sweet spot to avoid constant bulking and cutting cycles, this episode is going to help you hone in on the most efficient physique building approach. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:03

I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we're exploring something that challenges what many of us, including myself, have been teaching for years about building muscle. You're probably tracking your calories, your macros. You're aiming to get just the right rate of gain, probably around a quarter pound per week, maybe a little more, something like two to three pounds per month, because that's what everyone says is optimal. I've even said before 0.2 to 0.3% of your body weight a week is optimal and, yes, you're going to make progress. However, you do it when you're in a surplus, but it might be slower than you want. And now you notice others making gains faster. Maybe you feel like you're shortchanging yourself because it doesn't seem like you're putting it all out there. And the new research that we've seen over the last few years suggests exactly that that we can gain muscle faster than previously thought, with less concern about fat gain than we once believed, and this changes pretty much everything we knew about building muscle and how fast and how large our surplus should be. Now, speaking of changing everything, I've revised my free muscle building nutrition blueprint to reflect the new findings, the new rates of gain, and I separate it by aggressiveness depending on how comfortable you are gaining weight and gaining some fat along for the ride as you build that muscle. And if you want your free copy of my muscle building nutrition blueprint, just use the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free and it's updated and it's a very detailed guide with not only the rate of gain, but it walks you step by step through the process of building muscle. It gives you an example of how I applied this to a past bulk, which, of course, if I did it again, I might actually go aggressively. And just so you know, I'm recording this as I've recently started a new bulk, which I will be reporting out on, probably in a few months, only because I want to see how well my new program goes as well. I'm running a 19 week program that has a base phase and then a peaking phase to push up my main lifts, which I haven't done in a while, and I'm combining that with the bulk and I'm going at what I would call a moderately aggressive rate based on what I'm going to share today.

Philip Pape: 3:14

So let me break this down into three parts. First, we're going to look at why the recommendations are changing based on new research. I've said in the past you should never be locked into a specific finding, whether it's from one study or 10 studies, because there could always be new information that enlightens us as to more precise, accurate approach, and that is exactly the case here. Then, in the second segment, I'm going to explain exactly what this means for you and your muscle building goals. And then, finally, I'm going to show you how to put this into practice based on your experience level, your level of training advancement. So let's talk about how our understanding has evolved, because this is super important.

Philip Pape: 3:53

Why are my recommendations changing? Why are the recommendations in the industry changing? And some very well-respected individuals out there, like the guys at Stronger by Science, for example and if you've listened to me for any length of time, you've heard me tell you, as a listener and clients, to gain around 0.2 to 0.3% of your body weight per week when trying to build muscle. And this wasn't just my recommendation, it was the standard advice based on the best available evidence at the time, including some meta-analysis, one by Dr Herrick Helms et al. I've had people on the show talk about that and it was in all of my guidance, even to clients as well, because it's the best thing we knew and everyone's worried about gaining too much fat, so we don't want to push it too aggressively and do the old dreamer bulk right. Just the seafood diet, see it and eat it. But you know, science evolves and sometimes it evolves dramatically and sometimes it catches up to some of the kernels of truth that we know about from the bro science, from the guys who've truly packed on some muscle and I'll be honest, you know I have a long way to go.

Philip Pape: 4:56

I've been doing this seriously now for four or five years but I want to say, like, from the nutrition side, probably about three years, and I've learned a lot personally. I've helped hundreds of clients and listeners go through this process and doing it successfully, and yet still we can learn and do it better. So we've gone from having just two key studies on this topic. This is the pitfall of relying on science too much is when we don't have quite enough information out there compared to the decades and hundreds and thousands of anecdotes which in some way count as their own evidence. So we've gone from having two studies to now having five well-designed studies.

Philip Pape: 5:34

Look at how different rates of weight gain affect muscle growth and fat gain, and the results are changing what we thought we knew. And I want to give credit where it's due because this was recently detailed in an excellent article by Greg Knuckles at Macrofactor. You know how much I love those guys. He was on the show in the past and he's just a phenomenal writer, but he's really good at distilling a lot of this complex information into an article that's still detailed enough to give you all the key points and graphs and comparisons. And their team. They analyzed these five studies and it kind of opened my eyes about how we need to update our approach as well, and that's why I'm doing this episode and so I've linked to that article in the show notes and you can check that out firsthand and see where it all comes from.

Philip Pape: 6:18

But to get into specifics, a recent study published in the Journal of Functional Morphology and Kinesiology found something pretty remarkable because in relatively untrained lifters which is a good place to start because they can change fairly quickly gaining up to about a pound or a half percent of body weight per week led to large increases in fat-free mass, with minimal to no increase in fat mass. And if we think about how our body is composed, when we talk about body composition, there is muscle mass and there is everything else which includes fat, but not just fat. And the way they typically measure these is just creating a binary buckets, you know, fat-free mass and fat mass, which is pretty helpful in our context because a lot of us really care about are we gaining too much fat when we gain muscle? But we also want to see that we're gaining the muscle and what the ratio is. So one pound a week is significantly faster than what we previously thought, even for newer lifters. I mean, I'll say it's on the cusp and you're going to find out. You're going to see here that the recommendations for intermediate and advanced lifters are actually a lot more aggressive than we thought as well. So where it gets interesting for those people, for experienced lifters and by experienced I mean you've been training hard for at least six to nine months Now you've moved into late novice, early intermediate and your propensity to gain muscle is just a little bit less than where it was at the beginning or anything more advanced than that.

Philip Pape: 7:46

The research shows that faster rates of weight gain might help increase muscle growth even a bit more, but too much, and you're still going to primarily just increase fat gain. So that's where there's consistency with the previous literature to an extent, but the numbers have just shifted to be more aggressive. So, for example, in a very advanced lifter, when gaining about 0.4% of their body mass a week, about 60 to 65% of the weight gained was fat-free mass, so that's almost two-thirds not as fat, which is more than I thought would happen. I used to say it was around 50-50, right, and any more than that. It just gets worse. But now we're saying it's two-thirds muscle or two-thirds fat-free mass to one-third fat.

Philip Pape: 8:32

Okay, in an advanced trainee at 0.4% a week, which, just so you know, is right about the rate I'm going at right now. I used to hit it at around 0.25, 0.3, and now I'm going at 0.4. I consider myself an intermediate lifter and I'm going more aggressive Pretty cool, right, and I know that that could. Then it gives me a lot of excitement because, first of all, I get to eat a lot more food, which is awesome, In fact, almost to the point where it could be uncomfortable, because I do still eat a lot of whole foods and fiber and sometimes I feel too full whole foods and fiber and sometimes I feel too full. So there's that hard gaining piece. I did a whole episode about that in the past and I'm going to link to that in the show notes as well.

Philip Pape: 9:11

Anyhow, if we take that rate of gain 0.4%, let's say we slow that down to more like 0.16, I think was the exact number. The amount of fat-free mass that these advanced lifters gained as a percentage of the total weight gained was 85%, so a vast majority of it being muscle. When they're going at 0.15% Now, 0.15% is roughly on the low end of whatI used to recommend anyway, like the lowest of the low end Kind of makes sense. So what this means is simple We've been too conservative with our recommendations, especially for beginners and intermediates and that's probably the vast majority of people listening to be honest Because once you're advanced, you kind of have things dialed in and understand how your body responds anyway, and it's going to take longer between. It's going to take longer to do everything you know to gain muscle mass, to gain strength, and so it makes sense that your rate of gain would slow down. So all of this is excellent news because it means that you might be able to build muscle faster than you thought, without packing on unnecessary fat. So now you understand why recommendations have changed. And again, go check out the article. You can check out the research study that I just mentioned specifically, but it's mentioned in the article, so I would rely on that and their citations to see all of the studies that are being drawn upon. And now I want to use this research to tell us what it means about building muscle, and this is where it gets really interesting. So this research has revealed three insights that I want to talk about, Three major insights about building muscle.

Philip Pape: 10:40

First, your training experience matters potentially even more than we realized. Beginners have an incredible capacity for muscle growth. They can gain up to 0.8% body weight per week with minimal fat gain. Like those are fat loss numbers. In other words, like that's the rate of body weight loss I would be recommending for fat gain. Usually, when we talk about muscle gain, we talk about a fraction of that, like a half or a quarter of that, and what we're saying is no, you can actually crank it up to like 0.8% and even potentially 1% of your body weight per week if you're total new and you're willing to gain a little extra fat for the chance of building a lot more muscle.

Philip Pape: 11:24

And then we have intermediate lifters and they're not far behind now. They have the ability to gain, say, 0.3 to 0.5% per week effectively and still gain a ton of that as muscle mass. We're talking a half a percent a week. So if you gain let's say you're an average, slightly bigger guy and you're 200 pounds, just for easy numbers that's a pound a week. Right, that's a pound a week. So that's like a little over four pounds a month, which means in six months you'd be gaining like 25 pounds.

Philip Pape: 11:50

Okay, and 25 pounds amounts to what does that come out to be? Over what 12.5% increase? And I used to recommend anywhere from seven to 10%, and this is suggesting we can go up to like well, 12.5% over a six month period. You can bulk for less, you can bulk for longer, and that's going to change the total weight gained, but the percentage of that gained as muscle mass should still be pretty high, All right. And then we have advanced lifters who still need even more precision and they should stay in the range of anywhere from 0.15 to 0.35% body weight per week.

Philip Pape: 12:23

And I realize I'm throwing a lot of numbers at you. If you go to the Macrofactor article, you'll see tables that give you ranges and I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you use Macrofactor the app itself, it's actually designed around percentage gain per week. Use my code, WITSANDWEIGHTS, try it for free for a couple of weeks and I'm sure you'll be hooked and you'll want to use it forever. Again, link in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 12:45

It sounds like I'm promoting a bunch of stuff here, but it's all connected, so beginners can go up to a percent or maybe 0.8%, intermediates up to half a percent and advanced maybe 0.35%. That's the first major insight from this research. But there's more to understand about how this changes our approach, because second is that we've discovered the sweet spot, for muscle growth is also higher than we previously thought kind of that optimal number and the research shows that your body's more capable of using the extra nutrients for muscle growth, especially earlier in your training career and we used to think a little bit slower. More of a lean gain was always better and we know that's not true now, which is great. It's liberating. It means you have a lot more flex pun intended to eat more and gain more muscle without being as worried about gaining a ton of fat.

Jenny: 13:35

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement, for all of our help. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 14:21

And then third, and this might be the most exciting finding that the ratio of muscle to fat gain is much better than we feared. I alluded to that earlier. If you gain at one of these moderate rates which is now, is more aggressive than we thought up to three quarters of the weight gained can be lean mass. Now, a little bit of that might be some fluid mass, glycogen going on, but still that's a huge ratio of muscle. I've seen this. You know there's a sanity check. A sniff test on this is with my clients. We track a bunch of metrics. We track body measurements. I do some Navy formula based body fat percentage measurements and I also calculate how much lean mass versus fat you've gained or lost during a muscle building phase. And for my clients who have gone at a more conservative rate, like we used to recommend, it was often well over two thirds lean mass and I always thought, wow, this must just be because they're so new at it. Because many of my clients they've been training, but they haven't maybe been training effectively. So we get them training for strength using the right type of periodization, using the right stimulus, with volume and intensity, and they just get cranky. Their lifts go up, they start building a ton of muscle. So it makes sense. But now I'm thinking, oh, is it actually because we just can go more aggressively and still gain a bunch of muscle and it not be very much fat and let's not worry as much about the scale going up? We actually want that to happen. We want to be well over that threshold and now this liberates us to really push it and not worry. That's what I think is pretty cool. So even when we push the rate of gain higher, fat accumulation isn't nearly as dramatic as we once thought, and this completely changes the old belief that you know, if you gain too fast, it's all fat. Having said that, there is a rate of gain that some people would be going way too aggressively. You know, like one and a half, two percent a week is probably then at the point where you're just going to gain a bunch of fat, and that's like the dreamer book, right. But the evidence doesn't support the fear of too much fat gain in a fairly wide range now. So we've covered why the old recommendations were too conservative, what the new science shows Now, how do you actually apply this to your own training and nutrition?

Philip Pape: 16:33

And it's pretty simple how do we take this and turn it into your results? I think it starts with assessing. How do we take this and turn it into your results? I think it starts with assessing honestly, like very honestly, your training experience. All right, you're probably a beginner and I have air quotes here if you're still adding weight to your lifts almost every session so that's session to session. But honestly, if you're able to go up every week, you're probably still in a late beginner, early intermediate stage. So if you're able to go up every week, you're probably still in a late beginner, early intermediate stage. So if you're making progress, but it's less consistent and, again, progress is very fluid here because it's not just weight on the bar, it's also your volume, your periodization. If you use some sort of wave type programming, you kind of know who you are if you're not just cranking up weight on the bar super quickly.

Philip Pape: 17:21

So I'm in that situation where I'm not just going to increase weight every session and not necessarily every week. Sometimes I increase sets or reps as a form of adding more work, and there's different reasons for that, outside the scope of today's podcast, different reasons for that outside the scope of today's podcast. But I consider myself intermediate, but still with a huge propensity to grow muscle, and so I'm going to go that moderately aggressive like that. 0.4%. Maybe I could even go more aggressive than that. But the amount of calories required then become actually a little bit of a sustainability issue for me, just like when you cut too quickly and it's not sustainable. I know we're going into the holiday season here. I can only put down so much food at each meal, just how I am, and to go significantly past say 3,200 or 3,500 calories a day would be not that sustainable for me. I could do it, and it's an excuse if I said I couldn't, but that's part of the equation.

Philip Pape: 18:20

So 0.4%, anyway, beginner and immediate. You got to assess where you are and if you're advanced, you know who you are. I mean, I'm not going to try to define that for you. You know who you are, so let's talk about selecting your approach then based on that. If you're a beginner, I would start with something like a half a percent body weight gain per week. If you're a little bit worried about too much fat gain, okay, that's a pound a week for a 200 pound person, but you can push it up to 0.7, 0.8% and be probably fine and you're going to get even more gains. If you're intermediate, you might aim for about 0.3 to 0.4%. So this is like on top of the optimal range that I used to talk about. By a percent or so, I mean 0.1% or so, so that you can push it there. And that's where I'm going 0.4%, and then, if you're advanced, you're going to stay more conservative 0.2, 0.3, which is ironically the old optimal. So everything's been shifted up and it's not just about the rate of gain. So this is important. You have to monitor more than just the scale. We're going to monitor how is your progression in the gym strength, numbers, volume, sets, recovery.

Philip Pape: 19:22

Here's my premise for lifting and programming. Your program and your approach and your recovery should be set up where you are not missing reps period. Whether you're doing a very beginner program like starting strength, or a more advanced program, intermediate, you know, four or five day split, it should be set up and you should be doing things in advance so that you're not missing reps. I don't like the idea that some people have that I'm just going to push for some goal weight and I might fall short, but I stretched myself and that'll be an indicator of progress. That is not objective and if you are constantly failing reps, it tells me that you are overreaching or you are under-recovering with your program. It is not structured appropriately for you and if you're wondering about all this, reach out to me. I'll help you out. I'll help you identify either a standard template or program out there that's probably appropriate given your training age and capacity, or we can talk about how you might tweak a program in a custom way to work for you. So you shouldn't be missing reps right.

Philip Pape: 20:24

Are your lifts consistently progressing the way you want them? You should be taking measurements and progress photos right and tracking your various circumference levels in your body, fat and body composition to make sure they're on track where you want. I have a physique tracker in the Wits and Weights Physique University that everyone uses. So from day one when you go through onboarding, you get that and it shows you how to track all of these measurements. And then it does all the calculations for you and it tells you you are gaining lean mass versus fat at this rate and then you can tell okay, am I doing something that I shouldn't be? Am I not training hard enough or appropriately, or am I eating too much? Or maybe I'm low on protein. There could be something going on that you can tell.

Philip Pape: 21:05

Track your biofeedback, like your energy, your recovery between sessions, your DOMS right, your delayed onset, muscle soreness. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not. It's an indicator of under recovery, right? Your sleep, your digestion, your hunger, all of those things as well. All these factors tell you whether you're gaining in the right way, at the right rate for you. So we've talked about rates of gain, we've talked about monitoring progress.

Philip Pape: 21:32

There's one more piece that's crucial to making this work besides lifting consistently. There's one more piece that's crucial to making this work besides lifting consistently, and that is your nutrition quality right. Just because you can gain faster doesn't mean you should throw nutrition out the window, and it's very common, when you have all these calories you want to hit, that you start throwing in a ton more processed foods. You kind of start eating a little more randomly. Your meal timing gets thrown off right. Training days versus off days start to look quite different. You struggle on off days to even eat enough. There's a lot of these issues and we've got to have the principles in place. There's, of course, protein. It shouldn't be that hard to get enough protein when you're eating a lot more calories. You should have already set that up before you went into a muscle building phase. Anyway, of 0.7, one gram per pound body weight of protein shouldn't be hard when the calories are up. And then you still need quality carbs to fuel your training.

Philip Pape: 22:22

Now there's always lots of debates about carbohydrates. My position is that there's no harm in adding carbs. There could be harm in being too low in carbs, especially when you're building muscle. That's the way I like to say it. I'm not going to say low carb is going to harm you or hold you back. I'm just saying that you should try it out and see how carbs help, not just with performance, energy and recovery, but one thing that doesn't get talked about enough the anti-catabolic nature of carbs, the ability of carbs to prevent the breakdown of muscle tissue and make everything else you're doing serve you better, like the protein and the lifting right. It's just. It removes a potential hindrance by increasing your carbs. And then, of course, the balance of your macro is just to make it work, the healthy fats and all that fun stuff to support everything you're doing, which, again, shouldn't be a problem with all those calories. But the key thing with quality is still have the nutrients coming in, still have the fiber, but then you have to manage your timing and you have to manage your frequency so that you don't feel stuffed or uncomfortable and it's sustainable. All of that still applies. All right, now we're about to wrap this up.

Philip Pape: 23:29

I do want to share something that I discovered while reviewing the research. That actually changed how I think about muscle gain. So you remember those studies that showed really high rates of lean mass gains in beginners. What they actually revealed wasn't just about the rate of gain, it was your body's nutrient partitioning abilities when the right conditions are present. And one way to think about that is simply this Remember when you didn't lift weights. Remember when you were less active.

Philip Pape: 24:01

You were afraid of gaining weight. Probably you were afraid and it happens to people on the holidays every year you just gradually overconsume. You're probably consuming a lot more than you think you are and it's a lot more than your body even needs when you're not that active and you're not utilizing those nutrients in any productive way other than energy storage, meaning fat. Now you're completely flipping that on its head to say I'm doing stuff lifting weights, training hard and being active that actually use the nutrients and energy in a productive way for the first time in my life, and your body is super adaptive to that. It's adapting how it uses the food coming in, such that you're a completely different person than the version of you that wasn't active or lifting. So when you do this and I see this with clients all the time it's so incredible and it's so amazing and even my own personal journey has borne this out I don't fear gaining weight anymore. I can't possibly fear it, because every time I gain weight it's combined with the things that use those nutrients and I build muscle, even if some fat comes along for the ride.

Philip Pape: 25:10

I know it's super easy to cut fat after that, and it will be for you too, if you take this approach right. Your after that and it will be for you too, if you take this approach right your strength will skyrocket. Your body composition will change. Your body composition will improve from when you were gaining weight in the past and not lifting, but even potentially when you were gaining weight too slowly. And so ladies not just men, a lot of men I talk to have no problem with the concept of like, okay, I'm going to gain weight, maybe some fat, that's fine.

Philip Pape: 25:34

I sense the fear more in women and this is just a generalization but for some of you women who just need to spend time building muscle, you might have to do it even more aggressively than you thought, and it's going to result in weight gain, but for a purpose. A purpose that's going to make you leaner, stronger, more fit, more capable, and then you could just cut the fat, and you won't have to cut it as much as you think, because you're going to have all this extra muscle and you can walk around at a higher scale weight, you know, like a badass, looking great, carrying extra weight, eating more food Isn't that what we want, right? So the increased food, combined with progressive loading, creates such a strong muscle building stimulus that your body is going to preferentially use all those extra calories, the vast majority of them for muscle growth. So keep this in mind. This is a very important episode, a very important concept that sometimes, being too conservative, would actually hold you back from creating that optimal anabolic environment for muscle growth. Right, it's like trying to build a house with just barely enough materials coming in, right? Yeah, you're not going to have extra materials that represent fat storage, but you're making the whole process much harder and slower than it needs to be. It's just going to take forever. Now if you're the type of person who doesn't like to gain or lose weight and just wants to sit at the same weight and get some body recomp, that's a whole separate discussion you can do that. It's just going to take a lot longer time we're talking on the order of multiple years and you might get frustrated with the lack of progress in the gym because you're just not cranking up that anabolic environment.

Philip Pape: 26:59

All right, I think I've gone on long enough on this and I think it's all very exciting. I'm passionate about it. It's an evolution in our understanding of some really basic things in the science of muscle growth and strength. Don't forget, strength is a huge part of this. It means that many of you can make faster progress while maintaining a smart, methodological or methodical approach. It's not about going crazy and just dumping calories in your body. It's giving you the resources that you need and cranking it right to that limit to fulfill the potential on a reasonable timeframe. Right, because your body is even more remarkable than we thought at building muscle and when you provide the right stimulus through training and adequate nutrients through food, it knows exactly what to do with those resources.

Philip Pape: 27:43

And remember, if you want to implement these new recommendations and all the other things, what do you track? How do you track them? How do you know that it's working to maximize your muscle growth? I've completely revised my muscle building nutrition blueprint to reflect the latest research and it breaks down exactly how to determine your ideal rate of gain, set up your nutrition and monitor your progress. To get those results, just download using the link in my show notes, or, as always, go to witsandweightscom slash free. And if you want to track your progress with the app that I mentioned earlier, which I use, my clients use. Try Macrofactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. I link to that as well in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that sometimes being too conservative can hold you back from your true potential. This is Philip Pape. You've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Eat More of THESE Mood-Boosting Foods for Everyday Happiness with Dr. Sarah Ballantyne | Ep 241

Can the specific foods you eat transform your mental well-being? Does nutrition hold the key to unlocking mental resilience?

Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Dr. Sarah Ballantyne, a PhD researcher and New York Times bestselling author, to discuss the powerful relationship between nutrient-dense foods and happiness. They explain how specific food nutrients can boost mood and resilience in ways supplements cannot. Learn and discover easy strategies to add nutrient-packed foods to your diets, the benefits of a diverse intake, and why eating for abundance rather than restriction may be the key to physical and emotional well-being.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne is a scientist with a PhD in medical biophysics and an acclaimed author whose work focuses on the links between nutrition, immune health, and chronic disease. Her NutriVore framework encourages a balanced, nutrient-focused approach to food based on evidence, not restriction.

📲 Download your free Nutrition 101 Guide to Body Composition to master your nutrition plan for sustainable fat loss, muscle gain, and improved health, plus support your workouts, or go to witsandweights.com/free

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:45 Nourish beyond restriction
8:13 Nutrients, happiness, and wellbeing
13:39 Boosting mood and stress management
18:52 Hidden compounds with big benefits
22:35 Diversifying your plate for maximum nutrients
31:57 Tips for making nutritious foods irresistibly flavorful
41:24 Breaking from food fear and diet culture
46:07 Insulin and nutrient diversity misconceptions
49:41 The importance of increasing scientific literacy on nutrition
55:24 Outro

Episode resources:

• nutrivore.com: Click “Join” to go to the free weekly newsletter (bite-sized information)

• TikTok: @drsarahballantyne 

• Threads: @drsarahballantyne 

• YouTube: @drsarahballantyne 

• Instagram: @drsarahballantyne 

• Facebook: fb.com/drsarahballantyne 

The Science Behind Food and Happiness

Understanding the Food-Mood Connection Beyond Just "Comfort Foods"

We often reach for chocolate or ice cream when we're feeling down, seeking that temporary pleasure hit. But what if certain nutrients could create genuine, lasting improvements in your mental well-being?

Research shows that increasing specific foods in your diet can boost happiness as much as landing a new job - and within just 24 months. This isn't about emotional eating or restrictive diets. It's about understanding how nutrients actually impact our brain chemistry and mental health.

The Evidence for Nutrient-Driven Happiness

A groundbreaking 2016 study found that each additional serving of fruits and vegetables increased life satisfaction, up to eight servings daily. The impact was equivalent to going from unemployment to employment - a dramatic shift in well-being that occurred within two years.

This is significant because while we often hear about how nutrition affects our long-term physical health, the mental health benefits happen much sooner. You don't have to wait decades to experience the positive effects.

Key Nutrients That Impact Mental Well-being

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne explains several crucial nutrients that directly influence our mood and mental health:

• Vitamin C: Modulates stress response and affects how our bodies handle cortisol

• Polyphenols: Found in fruits, vegetables, and even chocolate - provide antioxidant and anti-inflammatory benefits

• Fiber: Supports gut bacteria that produce neurotransmitters affecting mood

• B vitamins: Directly impact neurological health and cognitive function

Simple Ways to Boost Your Nutrient Intake

Rather than focusing on restriction, here are practical ways to add more nutrient-dense foods:

1. Start with one extra serving of vegetables at lunch

2. Include a variety of colors (different colors = different beneficial compounds)

3. Experiment with new preparation methods for foods you typically avoid

4. Focus on whole food sources rather than supplements

Beyond Just Fruits and Vegetables

While produce is crucial, other nutrient-dense foods also support mental well-being:

• Mushrooms (contain ergothioneine, nicknamed the "longevity vitamin")

• Legumes (packed with polyphenols)

• Herbs and spices (concentrated sources of beneficial compounds)

• Dark chocolate (yes, really - contains unique polyphenols)

The Bottom Line on Food and Happiness

The evidence is clear: what we eat significantly impacts how we feel mentally, not just physically. By focusing on adding nutrient-dense foods rather than restriction, we can improve our mental well-being while still enjoying all foods in moderation.

This isn't about perfect adherence or avoiding certain foods. It's about making small, sustainable additions that compound over time to support both physical and mental health.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're like most of us, you've probably tried everything to feel better when you're stressed or overwhelmed Meditation, supplements, you name it but what if the answer was sitting right there in your kitchen? Today, I'm sitting down with Dr Sarah Ballantyne to uncover the fascinating link between specific nutrients and happiness. You'll learn why certain foods can boost your mood more effectively than any supplement, and how simple additions to your diet could improve your life satisfaction as much as landing your dream job. Whether you're dealing with daily stress or you just want to feel more resilient without another restrictive diet, what we're about to share will give you those practical, science-backed strategies that actually work actually work. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:53

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are exploring a surprising connection between nutrient-dense foods and happiness with Dr Sarah Ballantyne. Now, sarah is a New York Times bestselling author with a PhD in medical biophysics, and her research background spans a ton of areas inflammation, immunity, cell biology. And, after her personal experience with the limitations of restrictive dieting raise your hand she developed the NutriVore framework, an evidence-based approach focused on nutrient density rather than restriction. So today, you're going to learn which nutrients are essential for mood and mental health, how to easily add more nutrient-dense foods to your diet, not take things away, and why focusing on abundance could be the key to both physical and psychological well-being. Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 1:42

Oh, thank you so much for having me, and I'm just like so excited about this conversation today.

Philip Pape: 1:47

Yeah, as I was saying before we started recording, you know I personally had not followed you until someone who follows this show recommended you and then I was kind of I'll say in love with your content right away because of how aligned we are in you know, the freedom, the freedom that comes from knowing there are a variety of ways that you can eat. There's no right or wrong. There's diversity of wonderful foods out there. And you take the lens and the frame of nutrients specifically, which is also a little bit unique because sometimes it gets it's like the fourth thing right. It's like calories, macros, meal timing, oh, and, by the way, get your nutrients.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:22

It ends up being the fourth thing on a to-do list where you only ever get three things done.

Philip Pape: 2:27

Yes, right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:28

It's always the so I'm a big to-do list person. Every morning I'll like write out like the things that I want to accomplish for the day, and there's always those couple of things at the bottom of the list that get pushed to tomorrow and then pushed to tomorrow and they don't actually make it far enough to get done until the day before their due right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:45

I think that getting all of the essential nutrients that we need I mean no dietary framework teaches that the USDA dietary guidelines doesn't teach us what nutrients are important.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 2:58

There's 49 essential nutrients, right, they've just decided it's too complex. Right, we'll focus on eating patterns. But when you don't really understand the whys behind those eating patterns, it makes it really really hard to implement. And so if you don't have an appreciation for I'm getting these types of nutrients from these types of foods, we don't need to have it like, all 49 nutrients memorized, right. Like we don't need that kind of encyclopedic knowledge to be able to figure out, like, within the foods we like and fit within our budget and fit within the time we have to prepare food, we don't need to know every single thing about those foods to be able to make those choices so that we're actually getting the full range of nutrients our bodies need. But, like of some basics which, like, we're not taught in school, we're not taught by the medical establishment, we're not taught by the different dietary frameworks that are out there, that base knowledge changes the game, right. It turns any diet into a diet that actually meets our nutritional needs, and that is the thing that actually improves long-term health.

Philip Pape: 3:57

Yeah, and I think it. Also it makes it exciting, interesting and desirous to go after certain foods Like, for example I think about mushrooms you talk about ergothionine, I think it's called, which we can get into as like, great for longevity, I think. And I would have had no idea. And also I'm not a huge fan of mushrooms, Neither is one of my daughters, but my wife makes them and throws them in our food. We're like we eat them anyway and this is kind of incentive. You know, it's just. It's just another incentive to add in nutritious foods and not think like it's about weight loss or it's about a macro like protein or even fiber. Right, like it's much more nuanced but it doesn't have to be complicated, is what I'm hearing.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 4:35

Yes, so I would say it's complex but not complicated, if that makes any sense, right? So you know that's a knowledge base that I need to be able to communicate, but I don't think it's a knowledge base that, like the average person needs. I think we can talk about, like some simple ways to formulate a plate, some, you know, a short list of foods of, like mushrooms that are important foods to add, right Like, where we can get those like really cool unique nutrients and then fill those nutritional gaps. But it doesn't need to be like. I actually think, very, very importantly, I want to take the stress out of food choice. I think, with restrictive diets, there's a lot of like reading labels to look for those food toxins and those inflammatory ingredients, right Like I think a lot of diet culture nowadays is really focused on identifying things to avoid, the vast majority of which is not considering the very important aspect of dose, like how much of that?

Philip Pape: 5:33

compound is a problem. And context, am I getting enough?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 5:35

of that from this food. Generally, the answer is no right, like, yeah, sure, those are foods to moderate, but that doesn't mean avoid completely, right, and I think, that yeah, go ahead.

Philip Pape: 5:46

No, no, no, no, go ahead. Keep going, please.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 5:48

So I think the challenge right now, in a time where, like there's so much food fear, right, so much conspiracy theory around food, food choices become a stressful event, and so I'm not looking to make it complicated in a way that's stressful.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 6:03

I'm looking to redirect our attention to the things that really matter, which is does my diet actually meet my nutritional needs? And actually create some simple structure to take the stress out of it. And then, by adopting a permissive structure where we make room for those delicious foods that someone else is telling me to be terrified of, but I love and makes my life better when I eat them because they give me joy right, if I can intentionally use those as tools for sustainability, those foods as something really positive to include in my diet. So I'm getting enough joy from my diet that I can stick to it. Right, like we're just completely changing the way we think about food choice with the goal of let's make it fun, let's make it easy, let's take the stress out of it. What foods I eat in the day should not be a point of stress and anxiety.

Philip Pape: 6:58

I totally agree. I had a delicious apple not long ago after lunch. It was like a new variety we had tried and just the enjoyment of the taste and the sweetness and knowing that there's nothing wrong with fruits. Like, believe it or not, some people think there's something wrong, you know, granted, if you had 50 apples a day it might be a problem. But again, food matrix. So it's interesting.

Philip Pape: 7:15

You mentioned joy and positivity because kind of the angle I was hoping to take for today's podcast and I know we'll go on a lot of tangents is what the research shows about adding fruits and vegetables into your diet to improve well-being, mood, happiness and I think beyond that, because people are like, oh okay, that's a very kind of narrow thing. Look at this as levels, levels of education and levels of application, in that there are probably a lot of people eating a ton of processed foods without many nutritious foods in their diet. They're like what do I even do to start? And I don't want to go to a NutriVore index and try to make a whole puzzle out of a million foods, right? So when we talk about joy and well-being and happiness, I don't think we're talking about necessarily comfort foods or the hedonic pleasure. We're talking about genuine, lasting improvements in our well-being. What's the difference between those? That'll be the first question. And then what is the baseline step up people can take in their diets to get toward that point?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 8:12

Yeah, so when we talk about quality of life foods which is how I like to think of them I'm referring very specifically to those like high dopamine response foods, right? So, like the foods that have that like salt, sugar, fat combination that just triggers like all of the reward centers in our brain that give me, like a short-term like dopamine high, but that aren't necessarily the foods that are supplying a lot of the nutrients that I need for long-term mental health, physical health, right, stress management, things that are actually going to make a profound impact in just like how I feel walking through the world. I think it's really important to like have room for both, right? So those like dopamine hits.

Philip Pape: 8:58

Oh, for sure.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 9:00

I don't see those as bad foods but, like often, we're talking about foods that don't have a lot of nutritional value and when they're overabundant in our diet, it makes it really hard to select foods in the rest of our diet so that we're still getting all of the essential vitamins and minerals and amino acids and fatty acids and phytonutrients that are really important, if not technically essential, that actually support our long-term health. So when we're talking about those foods like, what are the nutrients that we can focus on to support mental health? Or, as you just mentioned, right, what is my entry point? What is my one little thing now that I can do?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 9:36

When I talk about habit formation I love, like, what is the easiest thing? What is going to be something that's so easy for you to do that it's a no-brainer, it fits within your budget, it fits within your time. It's going to be foods that I mean maybe they're not dopamine foods, but they're still foods that you like and you can build on that success. And it is always, always, always. Let's start with adding a serving of vegetables. That is, like, always step one, and a part of that is we get the same benefit to all-cause mortality as a general indicator of health and longevity, going from zero to one servings of fruits and vegetables per day, as we do from going from one to four. So like that first little baby step.

Philip Pape: 10:18

It's like an exponential curve. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 10:20

Yeah, we get sort of diminishing returns. We still get benefit going higher, but we get sort of diminishing returns the higher we go. And it kind of plateaus. Different studies show different plateau levels. Some are as low as three servings of vegetables per day. Some are as high as eight right, but five is kind of where most studies show above that we're not necessarily getting additional benefit from more servings of vegetables. And then with fruit it's like two to three servings is kind of the sweet spot where we get the most health benefit, kind of where most of the science is at.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 10:51

But there was this amazing 2016 study, I think out of Australia, where they looked at just measurements of like life satisfaction, right, so just like how happy are you, and they looked at fruit and vegetable intake and they basically showed that for every servings of fruit or vegetable added per day, that a person ate up to eight servings per day. Total. That aligns very well with like five servings of vegetables and three servings with a fruit. They had like this increase in happiness, well-being, life satisfaction and the difference they calculated, right. So it's sort of a theoretical study. They calculated the difference between going from zero fruits and vegetables per day to going to eight was an equivalent increase in life satisfaction as going from unemployed to employed. I mean, I would love to see like an intervention version of the study where they take people who are not eating any fruits and vegetables and, like here, eat eight fruits and vegetables per day and we're going to measure, like how long it takes to like have this improvement in life satisfaction. But, based on the data they had, they predicted that improvement occurs in under two years. Whereas when you think about, like, the benefits of eating lots of fruits and vegetables I mean you might have some like digestive improvements that are pretty fast, right, but a lot of the rationale is so that you won't have cardiovascular disease in three years right To diabetes in 20 years right, it feels very far off and I think sometimes it's really hard to feel motivated to make food changes now, especially when that's really like outside of our routine and our comfort area.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 12:26

It's maybe flavors we're not familiar with, Maybe we find vegetables to be bitter it's really hard to make those choices. When we're thinking about some kind of far off like consequence right, that's not going to be a problem for decades. But when you think about, yeah, you could feel that much happier in some months, maybe up to two years. Now we're talking right Like now. This feels like yeah, this is worth it and I'm just going to be a happier person and all I have to do is eat more fruits and vegetables. That's amazing, and the best place to start is the beginning. Just add more compared to what you're eating now.

Philip Pape: 12:59

Yeah, I feel like we see that similar pattern with anything that promotes healthy living, like strength training. You're not necessarily going to get a ton of benefit in the first few weeks. In fact, you might feel like what am I doing? And then it takes a little bit, even like walking more. We know that's huge for all-cause mortality, but it's not like you're just going to get an immediate benefit the first week necessarily. So, speaking of the fruits and vegetables, then the study you're talking about is exactly the one that made me think about this topic to begin with, and it's in your book. What's happening at a biochemical level? Is it changing our mental state, or is it that that lifestyle is then correlated with overall healthier eating and behavior?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 13:39

Yeah, so studies that look at this are really trying to control for as many other factors as possible. So we're trying to make sure that this isn't. People who eat more fruits and vegetables are also more active and they're also younger, right, and they also have, you know, a higher socioeconomic status, like those things are true, right? So people who eat more fruits and vegetables do tend to have other health related behaviors, but they try to account for that in their mathematical analysis as much as possible to try to tease out what part of this effect is just the fruits and vegetables versus, like, something about this group of people. But, like, absolutely, there is a piece of this that you know, health behavior stack, right. So someone who is very active, probably also trying to get more sleep, right. So probably also trying to eat a diet to fuel athletic performance, right, like, we do tend to see those patterns. But we know also that there's nutrients in fruits and vegetables that are directly linked to physical and mental health. So big one here is vitamin C, right, fruits and vegetables are our best food sources of vitamin C, and vitamin C is a really key modulator of the stress response. So vitamin C is required for the production of catecholamines like adrenaline, noradrenaline, cortisol, but it also modulates the sensitivity of catecholamine receptors. So it's also modulating how, like, the body responds to the production of those stress hormones. So what happens is when we are not getting enough vitamin C, that magnifies the stress response. When we are stressed we kind of burn through vitamin C so we kind of get it from like both sides. We can kind of get this like runaway snowball of badness or we've got a really clear intervention point.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 15:25

So they've done studies where they give people vitamin C. There's one study done, I think 2004, if I remember correctly, where they gave people vitamin C. So they did a thousand milligrams three times a day for two weeks. So technically that is above the tolerable upper limit of vitamin C. So just throwing that little caveat out there, the tolerable upper limit of vitamin C. So just throwing that little caveat out there, the tolerable upper limit for vitamin C is 2000 milligrams. That's based on GI side effects. We don't see other negative health effects of too much vitamin C until about 10 grams per day and that seems to increase risk of kidney stones, at least in men. But if anytime you're going above the tolerable upper limit, that's a talk with your doctor moment. So just throwing out the caveat.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 16:10

But then they measured the stress response to mental arithmetic. So like quick, what's 27 times three divided by two plus 17,. Right, like that type of though. And you got to figure that out. Can you really anxious about it? You got to do it real fast. Or they had people do public speaking and measured their stress response and showed that just two weeks of upping vitamin C intake really dramatically decreased the stress response.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 16:36

There's been other studies showing that people who consume more vitamin C have lower risk of depression and anxiety. There was a study out of the Nurses' Health Study that showed that two servings of citrus fruit per day one of our best food sources of vitamin C, including what's cool about citrus is the polyphenols in citrus increase the bioavailability of vitamin C. So we actually use that vitamin C a little bit more readily. And they had 18%, 20% somewhere in that vicinity reduced risk of developing depression compared to two servings or less per week. So that is like just an example of one nutrient.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 17:12

We've got lots of fiber that improves the composition of the gut microbiome, our gut bacteria, and they're linked to just about everything that can go wrong with us health-wise. But a major path here is like they're actually making neurotransmitters. They're impacting our neurological health prettywise. But a major path here is they're actually making neurotransmitters. They're impacting our neurological health pretty dramatically. We do know there's a very strong link between gut microbiome activity and mental health challenges. There's other things, right, vitamin B6, other nutrients in fruits and vegetables that are directly impacting our neurophysiology, which we experience as mood and cognition and resilience, and that's all in those fruits and vegetables. So that is like our mechanistic explanation. And then we've got the like added benefit of. You know, probably if we're adding more fruits and vegetables, we're going to start making other changes that will also like getting more activity also boosts mood, right.

Philip Pape: 18:07

Absolutely. Getting more sleep also boosts mood right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 18:09

So like we're also building more health habits, that are all going to stack.

Philip Pape: 18:14

Yeah, and there's the benefits like being more full and having more hydration and all of that. I like that you mentioned. I mean, we talked about the levels and what we're saying here is, just by adding some level of servings of fruits and vegetables and we didn't even say it has to be these or has to be that you're probably going to have major benefits. You mentioned vitamin C. There's a ton of other vitamins and minerals and you mentioned polyphenols and I wanted to hit on that one because I feel like there's a whole hidden world of compounds in vegetables and fruits that we are oblivious to because they're not on a nutrition label and they're not in an ingredient list. Can you just talk a little bit about that and how important that is?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 18:51

Yeah, so polyphenols are the best studied, best understood class of phytonutrients, phyto meaning plant, nutrient meaning thing that we use as a raw material. Right, and what's interesting about phytonutrients, like broadly as a class, is we consider them non-essential, but we know that the more are, on average. A lot of that comes out of research into polyphenols. So it was actually before vitamin C was identified as the nutrient that, like if we didn't get enough, we developed scurvy. They knew that lemon juice or lemons or citrus fruit we developed scurvy. They knew that lemon juice or lemons or citrus fruit could treat scurvy.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 19:27

They also knew, like turnips and turnip greens, like they had some other like foods that they knew could prevent scurvy. And so a lot of that early research was done on lemons and there were actually some polyphenols in a lemon peel I think it was that they identified as being protective against the scurvy rash, even though it was like a whole separate pathway compared to vitamin C and scurvy. And so when they first sort of identified these polyphenols they didn't realize it was such a huge class of molecules at the time and they actually initially labeled them vitamin P, like they got to be a vitamin for a little while and then it was like, oh, okay, like Pluto was a planet, yeah, they're not Right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 20:06

Yes, very much Like we're changing our description. Once we realize it's not technically essential, then we take it out of the vitamin classification that you only get the vitamin name if you're absolutely essential. I mean, there's about 10,000 of them and they are broadly antioxidant and anti-inflammatory, and then different ones have different additional effects, right? So some can localize in different tissues, they can bind with different receptors. So we'll see the polyphenols in coffee are different than the polyphenols in tea, which are different than the polyphenols in chocolate, which are different than the polyphenols in citrus fruit, which is different than the polyphenols in apples.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 20:44

Right, we're getting different ones from different foods, and it's actually one of the things that makes different families of fruits and vegetables so beneficial and is a really strong argument for diversifying our diet as much as possible, so eating as wide a variety of foods as possible, because then we're getting maybe these, you know, 40 polyphenols from this food and like a different 50 polyphenols from this other food. But fruits and vegetables are generally our best sources, right? There's some other, right? I mentioned chocolate and coffee and tea. Legumes, as a general rule, are really packed with polyphenols as well, so like lentils are just like, really really high in polyphenols, so those are sort of our best sources. And what's really just fascinating is there's like increased polyphenol intake reduces risk of again just about everything that can go wrong with us health-wise. Right, it's just one of those nutrients that, because it's antioxidant, because it's anti-inflammatory, it then intersects with just about every pathology, just because inflammation is part of the pathogenesis of just about every chronic illness.

Philip Pape: 21:49

Okay, so that makes sense and I'm glad you threw in. We don't want to limit the discussion to fruits and vegetables. Right, there's all the other food. I mean, there's a whole bunch of food that has all these compounds.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 21:59

Anytime I can bring in chocolate, I'm going to for sure.

Philip Pape: 22:02

I'm with you, I love chocolate, I love chocolate Then I guess the next level down would be if someone's saying wanting to go from zero to two or three servings a day of something, whether it is fruits and vegetables or some other compounds, just to make it easy for them and again we're talking about mood well-being, kind of this general improvement in health. You did mention diversity, so part of the answer might be well, it's going to change like day to day, week to week. But are there some basics that you would say start here? You know, go to the grocery store, everyone can get these things. Start there and then you can start to get more complex from there.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 22:35

Yeah. So this argument kind of goes beyond polyphenols, because we've got some other classes of phytonutrients that are really important, so, for example, the glucosinolates in the cruciferous vegetable family, so that's broccoli, cabbage, kale, those types of vegetables.

Philip Pape: 22:50

And don't leave out Brussels sprouts please, my favorite.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 22:52

And Brussels sprouts is also in this family, yeah.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 22:55

They reduce risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer very, very strongly. And then some of those because again it's another big class of phytonutrients are really important for reducing risk of neurodegenerative disease like Alzheimer's disease. The onion family has a similar class of phytonutrients called thiosulfonates Again reduced risk of cancer, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease. The beet like beets are kind of a small family, like it's beets and chard and amaranth and like prickly pear and dragon fruit, but they have a class of phytonutrients called betalains, named after being discovered in beets, that really strongly reduce risk of cardiovascular disease but also improve muscle like exercise performance and muscle recovery. It's why beetroot supplements are like all over social media.

Philip Pape: 23:41

right now they're in pre-workouts, betaine yeah, yeah yeah, that's true.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 23:44

And then we've got you know like we can keep going right with the ergothionine, which is a really cool antioxidant amino acid. That's non-proteinogenic, so we don't incorporate it into our proteins but it still has biological roles in our bodies From mushrooms. It's also been nicknamed the longevity vitamin by scientists because it's so strongly antioxidant, reduces risk of basically everything associated with aging, which includes Alzheimer's disease, parkinson's disease, dementia in general. So if we start to think about, like the patterns, like what types of fruit and vegetable families we're going to get these from, like I've already named some, right? So cruciferous vegetables like ticking that box, super beneficial. The onion families that include onions, garlic chives right, ticking that box, super beneficial, the onion family. So that would include onions, garlic, chives. Right, ticking that box, super beneficial. Mushrooms ticking that box. Citrus fruits those polyphenols are so beneficial. Ticking that box.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 24:37

Berries are best food source of anthocyanins, which also improve exercise performance and muscle recovery, but also can reduce pain sensation. Exercise performance and muscle recovery but also can reduce pain sensation, so it can be very, very helpful for chronic pain. Our best food source of those is berries. So, like there's another box to check, we can look at the sugars that are really good for the gut bacteria in leafy vegetables like lettuce or spinach. We can look at the slow burning carbohydrates, also really good for the gut microbiome in root vegetables.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 25:07

So like those are like the ones that come to mind as like if we're going to start adding, like trying to get as much like spread across those fruit and vegetable families as possible, get those beats maybe like once a week, right? So some people think of this as trying to hit the different colors of fruits and vegetables. So there's five color families red, orange and yellow, green, blue and purple, white and brown. But I think eat the rainbow and like the different fruits and vegetable families are like overlapping concepts but they're still slightly different. Right, like you can get to one place from the other. Right, you can focus on the fruit and vegetable families and end up at eat the rainbow.

Philip Pape: 25:45

But I kind of think like- yeah, and you can have like three things with one color, but still diverse, right, yes, exactly.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 25:51

My wife in case she does that.

Philip Pape: 25:52

I'm like we're eating a white dinner tonight, aren't we? But it's like cauliflower and three other things that are just light colored.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 25:58

Cauliflower and turnips, and yeah, you can absolutely get diversity and it's not Eat the Rainbow and you get diversity and it's not eat the rainbow and you can get eat the rainbow and still be hitting all the same fruit and vegetable family. So I kind of like you know both of those concepts ideally, would kind of be somewhere in our brain. Right Like, okay, this has been a lot of cruciferous vegetables this week. Now maybe let me add some like carrots, or you know, some asparagus, right, something from a completely different vegetable family, even though I'm still hitting green. Right Like now I'm mixing up which vegetable family I'm actually selecting from. So kind of having those ideas. But it doesn't mean like, okay, I just listed 7,000 foods. It doesn't mean we need to go. You know, I would.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 26:41

Generally nutrition changes. We never want to go from zero to 100 in 0.6 seconds. Right Like, that can actually cause increased GI symptoms. Right Like, it's not generally fun. And why, like there's no like time limit here? Right, there's no deadline where someone's gonna be like, oh, you're not eating your five servings of vegetables yet or your three servings of fruit yet You're gonna like fail your assignment. Like there's not a teacher waiting for you to turn it in. There's no timeframe that we have to accomplish all of these diet changes in, which is great, because that gives us permission to tackle that step by step, to set ourselves up, to figure out each piece, turn that into a healthy habit, build that success and then figure out what the next piece is going to be so we can each take our own path there.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 27:28

And maybe it's adding a serving of vegetables to lunch, right? Maybe that's the first step. And with lunch, okay, what's going to be easiest for me? Maybe some carrot and celery sticks with a dip I really like. Maybe it's adding some lettuce to my sandwich, right. Or picking a soup that has some vegetables in it, right, some chicken vegetable soup for lunch. Maybe it's some guacamole, right. Like what is the thing that's going to make sense in my life? And like I'm going to work on that habit.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 27:56

And then I'm going to go okay, well, I've got veggies and dip, like as a lunch food, as part of my routine, so now I'm going to try to mix up those veggies. So now I'm going to try to add, you know, some kohlrabi, delicious cruciferous vegetable that is a great dipping vegetable, I know, not familiar for a lot of people, but because of that it tends to be very affordable, or some, you know, broccoli or cauliflower. Maybe I'll add some tomatoes, right, like maybe I'm going to branch out my veggies that I'm going to dip in for lunch, right, like maybe I'm going to branch out my veggies that I'm going to dip in for lunch, right, so now I can start adding that more rainbow of colors, more different fruits and vegetable families. So I think it's important to sort of give ourselves permission to iterate in a way that we're still making those steps towards diet improvement and towards that diet that is going to increase our life satisfaction dramatically from unemployment to employment levels, their life satisfaction dramatically from unemployment to employment levels.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 28:49

But do it in such a way that we're not tackling it with a diet mentality right. We're not like jumping in and like muscling our way through until we can't anymore and then falling off that bandwagon. Instead we're adopting it as a lifelong healthy habit. So that means making it so much part of our routine. That's the norm, right, that's the automatic, that's the default mode and that's where we see, like, the really dramatic improvements to long-term health outcomes is when we can make those healthy not just diet changes, lifestyle changes to health-related behaviors. When we can make all of that our default mode, that's when we really win.

Carol: 29:24

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self-confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape: 30:04

Yeah, I agree. I like the accessible approach you talked about and adding things in. That's a revelation I had a few years ago as well and it's a big switch for people, right. I know you came from a paleo background and I did as well, and it was like what do you not eat? As opposed to let's add stuff in.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 30:19

And also perfect or bust right yeah.

Philip Pape: 30:21

Like that is oh yeah, all or nothing. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 30:23

Yeah, it was like oh, you ate rice, you're not paleo, right? Like I mean paleo communities.

Philip Pape: 30:27

Oh, but I'm doing modified paleo anyway.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 30:28

Right, I mean, the paleo community is not the only one like this, where it's like you have to do all of this perfectly every single day.

Philip Pape: 31:00

Or it doesn get back to not worried about what happens two years from now, or you're going to not get cardiovascular disease, which is great, but also how's it improving my life in the moment? So two follow-ups then, from everything you said. First, I can just picture a wonderful week of menu options for my meal prep based on all these, because my wife does most of the cooking these days, but she definitely loves a lot of what you said, especially beets, and so my first question is that's on my very short list of like. It's very difficult for me to eat let's just put it that way like beets, tomatoes and mushrooms, and so I'll have like tomato soup or like mashed diced tomatoes in there. You know, I'll say I'll have her or me sneak it in Same thing with mushrooms. You know, chop them up. Beets, however. I've had difficulty. So for everybody listening who's picky about any number of these things which you know is a fact, people are picky what are your go-to one or two strategies to start actually incorporating these?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 31:56

So, first of all, I think hiding foods you don't like from yourself is an absolutely valid strategy. So chopping up those mushrooms and adding them to like a mince right, like that's actually how I got my kids to like mushrooms. I started with chopping them up very, very small and putting them in like shepherd's pie type dishes where you can't really, and you got rid of the texture. Then it's just like a little bit of umami flavor. That's how I got them to like mushrooms. Then it was very, very small pieces in soup, right, like we built it slowly over time. So, like, hiding it from yourself is great, but there's like there's some specific tricks for specific food. You mentioned beets. So the thing that most people don't like in beets is called jasmine. I think that's how it's pronounced. I don't know. I'm just trying to say it confidently so we don't second guess my pronunciation.

Philip Pape: 32:46

We'll remember Princess Jasmine. That's how my kids remember it. Okay.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 32:49

So that's got a really like earthy flavor.

Philip Pape: 32:52

Yes, it tastes like dirt. That's my opinion. It just tastes like dirt, okay, some people are more sensitive to it than others.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 32:59

So you're like a super taster for Jasmine or geosmin again, and that is usually the flavor that people really strongly dislike in beets. So one thing to know is that some varieties of beets don't have as much, so like golden beet tend to have less than like the beet colored beets. You know, like those really deep red, like our standard typical beets. The flavor is a little bit milder raw and you can eat beets raw. So you might like it grated and added to a salad or sliced really thin and added to a salad, especially golden beets, if you don't like the flavor of them roasted. But also we can deactivate that flavor with an acid. So that's why dishes that use like balsamic vinegar and beets like roasted together delicious, right. So like you're actually deactivating a lot, and the smaller you cut your beets, the more you can get that acid in there. So you might like pickled beets more than fresh beets, right? So like understanding those tips people who don't like cruciferous vegetables. It's actually the glucosinolates, those like really beneficial phytonutrients in there. Some people are bitter super tasters so they can taste that flavor just so much more strongly than most people can, and some people can't taste it at all. For some people Brussels sprouts are sweet, which is wild to me. I'm a bitter taster but not a super taster, so for me they're bitter, but they're pleasantly bitter. But there's some people for whom that is just so much.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 34:26

So, things that you can do, you can blanch the vegetable before you cook it, however you were going to. That'll leach some of those bitter compounds out. So like blanch your broccoli or your Brussels sprouts and then roast it. Then you can also like okay, it's got a flavor, let's balance it. So we can balance with some acidity, some astringency. So use some lemon juice or some vinegar. We can balance with some sweetness. So I make a Brussels sprout dish where I roast them first and then I toss them with a tablespoon for a whole big dish of maple syrup and balsamic vinegar. You can see, balsamic is definitely my go-to. And then I love adding, like some toasted pecans, maybe a little bit of bacon, right, like just like that.

Philip Pape: 35:09

Oh my God, I gotta go to dinner at your house. This is great.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 35:13

Right. So it's understanding, like what is in this thing that I don't like and how can I balance that with culinary techniques so that the full experience is something that I will like? There was a study done just a few years ago where they served vegetable dishes in college cafeterias. They did this study in five different college cafeterias and I think they had like 70 different vegetable dishes and they tested giving the vegetables either like a neutral name, like green beans, or a health-focused name, like nutritious green beans, or a taste-focused name like sizzling Sichuan green beans with toasted garlic.

Philip Pape: 35:53

You got me on that. I know which one wins.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 35:56

Right, well, yeah, the exact same dish. The only thing different was the name on the label in front of it. And they actually they did as much control as they could, so they actually made sure that the entire menu was the same, so that the dish was presented beside the exact same things. And then, like five weeks apart, now it's the exact same green bean dish, but now with a different name. And they showed that, compared to the neutral name, giving those green beans a health focus name decreased vegetable selection by 15%. Very, very sad. And giving it a taste focus name increased vegetable selection by 14%. So the difference was 29% between nutritious green beans and sizzling Sichuan green beans with toasted garlic, even though it was the exact same dish, like prepared the exact same way. And then they showed that, when they had the taste focus names, people on average ate 1.78 kilograms more of the vegetable dishes per day, which is, by the way, like the equivalent of about five servings. Right, like it's just a huge, huge difference. It was like 38%, 39%.

Philip Pape: 37:05

They're going to be so happy.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 37:06

They're going to be so happy, yes, and you know what, when you're in college you need it. So, all good. They showed some other cool things, like the college cafeterias that just sort of had a reputation for making better vegetable dishes. People just selected more vegetables period from those college cafeterias, right? So there, there's other things that went into this. And then they did all this like psychology, like side experiments, to make sure it was the anticipation of delicious flavor that was really the key driver of that effect, which it was.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 37:35

But, like, that's like another thing that we can do in our own homes, right, so like, maybe it is perusing the cookbooks we already have or some recipes on the internet for the things that just they look delicious. Right, it doesn't necessarily have to be the name, it just has to be the anticipation. Right, oh my gosh, look at this amazing, you know, beet salad with walnuts and arugula and goat cheese. This looks delicious. Let's make this, right. And then we're like, we're expecting it to be good because we've looked for the things that look like a really delicious way to prepare that meal, and then, if it's not like, you keep going, right, you keep exploring until you find the one that you like. Or why can't we give dishes snazzy names at home, right, like why can't we call that steamed broccoli, right? Yeah, it's basic, it's just steamed broccoli, but we could call it beyond basic broccoli bomb. I really should have had something prepared.

Philip Pape: 38:32

Yeah, I love it. No, I give you credit for trying to come up with something on the spot.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 38:36

I just went straight to alliteration. I'm like what are all of the beautiful broccoli something?

Philip Pape: 38:41

There's something alliterative, bombastic broccoli. Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 38:47

Best beautiful broccoli something. But yeah, like we can still do that at home. So, like, also like taking advantage of that. Psychology and studies do show that like our flavor preference is very affected by familiarity. So even just like you might not like it now, but like having it more often, you may develop a liking for it, right, so there could be a genetic thing that's kind of hard to like if cilantro tastes like soap you might not ever get there, that's fine, but like we can leverage these other tools to still work on that, habit formation.

Philip Pape: 39:18

Cool. I love it all. I mean, there's not really, I'll say, an excuse holding us back if we want to incorporate these. It's the naming or the skill of the cooking or how you cook it. Or you mentioned recipes. I mean, recipes have been hot for a decade plus. Now you know one thing I give credit to some of the dieting camps. They come up with some amazing recipe books, right Like the paleo and all of them. Sometimes, you know, they really go out of their way to try to do that.

Philip Pape: 39:43

I think a good segue because I want to make sure to cover this while I have your time is your history and evolving your views. And you mentioned something earlier. Actually, quote you said what did you say today? I wrote it down oh, really important, but not technically essential. I want to tease on that. I know where you're going with that and I want to do it in the context of, for example, at the macro level carbs okay, and I want to do it in the context of, for example, at the macro level carbs okay.

Philip Pape: 40:06

Hot button topic, and we know that it is also again in paleo, no grains, carbs tend to be lower. In keto, it's like super low carb. It's a whole thing. It's been a huge thing. So I have your book right and highlighted a section that says contrary to purported claims, rigorous and well-controlled metabolic ward studies have confirmed that low-carbon keto diets don't turn us into fat-burning machines with increased energy expenditure and preferential fat loss. If anything, they do the opposite and they may be associated with unwanted side effects. And the side effects might be a reflection of how many amazing things insulin does to the body beyond simply shuttling glucose cells.

Philip Pape: 40:44

And I'm not trying to get into a carb debate or anything, even though you and I are probably on the same page there. It's more of the skepticism of the industry and also how we evaluate all of this stuff. But how do we frame it? Just like you framed vegetables into a positive right, Whether it is carbs or some other vilified thing. This is a big topic, right? It's kind of what you're all about. So I want to hear how that's happened. And now you've got a history behind you that people will still bring up, because you've kind of betrayed a whole bunch of people that you may have supported, and now you've got folks criticizing you with the new stuff. So what are your thoughts on all that?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 41:23

Yeah, it feels like a lot of threads to pull together. So first, I sort of address you know you mentioned earlier that I came from paleo, right, I sort of come from that food fear don't eat these foods because of the lectins right type place and my transition to evidence-based was iterative. It took place over several years. Evidence-based was iterative. It took place over several years. I started talking about it in 2019 and you know, I don't know when I finished like I don't know at what point. I was like aha, now I have finally addressed all of my food fears and I've moved on and I, you know, have this like different perspective. Maybe I'm not, maybe I haven't finished my transition, maybe I'm still in the middle of it. I will only know that in the future when I look back on this moment. Right, but that was very much driven by for me, like researching the gut microbiome and being confronted again it's this sort of iterative process by studies that were showing me the incredible benefit of foods that I was afraid to eat, right, of foods that I had learned to be fearful of in this community. I'm like, yeah, but like, look at how amazing these specific types of fiber are and these polyphenols, right, and this collection of nutrients that lentils have for the gut microbiome and the improvements in gut microbial activity that are then reducing risk of cardiovascular disease and type 2 diabetes and Alzheimer's disease. And oh, by the way, look at these studies showing the more legumes like lentils somebody eats, the lower the risk of those health conditions.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 42:56

And that was sort of like the beginning of me opening my eyes to the logical fallacies that I had bought into, right? So this idea that just because something is harmful in large doses right, or that I can identify a chemical in a food that is harmful, that doesn't mean the whole food is bad for my whole body. And we really want to look at, okay, so sure, this food has carbohydrates, carbohydrates in their simplest form, in overabundance. If I'm eating, like, just plain sugar, like yeah, that is going to, you know, eventually lead to insulin resistance because I'm sort of inundating the system with glucose. And so the logical fallacy, the way that I used to think of, is like okay, so this food compound, look at how harmful it is. Therefore, the whole foods that contain sugar or lectins or whatever, I shouldn't eat those.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 43:51

But we also have to look at what are the nutrients in this system, right? So am I being compensated, let's say, in this potato, by minerals and vitamins that are required for the insulin response, right, that are required to produce insulin that actually improve how the gluteal force quarter is like receptor right Into my blood so that I'm not actually overwhelming that system, because there's also like fiber and resistant starch right In these potatoes. So like let's look at how the whole food because foods are also biologically complex as we are let's also not look at just the one system, right, let's not just look at insulin. Let's look at how that potassium is improving my kidney health and helping to reduce my blood pressure, right, like let's look at how this is a really satiating food so that it's actually going to help regulate my hunger hormones. Right, like there's other things that we want to look at. And so for me, the transition is really marked by like taking a much more like 30,000 foot view to how I look at foods and looking at the biggest and most rigorous studies, looking at systematic reviews and meta-analyses and not looking as much the interaction between one food compound and one biological system right, so, getting away from mechanisms which hurts my heart a little bit because that's the medical research I used to do.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 45:13

But getting away from mechanisms to look at the big picture and I think that is like thematic in the wellness community now is sort of like missing the forest for the trees because we get so focused on oxalates, right, like 17 different conditions. Then oxalates cause, in a very, very small set of circumstances, right, kidney stones and missing the part of. Yeah, but these vegetables are some of the most important vegetables for kidney health and when we eat more of these vegetables we reduce risk of kidney stones. Right, because there's other nutritive compounds that are affecting that system. So we need to look at their net effect, not one specific one. So that's sort of like the way that I've changed thinking about it.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 45:50

And with carbohydrates, specifically, right, are we looking at insulin as just doing this one thing binding with its receptor, making the glute for transporter. We move from inside of the cell into the cell membrane so glucose can get inside the cell. But insulin does so much more than that. I mean hormones in general. There's no hormone that only has one job. Hormones are really really fascinating. They're signaling molecules, so they cause other things to happen.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 46:17

But insulin is important for thyroid hormone conversion, so it's directly controlling our metabolism. It's important for getting amino acids into our muscle tissues and for myosynthesis, so really important for muscle repair and recovery and for gaining strength. That's why you don't find a ton of low carb athletes, at least not ones that stay that way for a long period of time. It's really important for it affects bone derived neurotropic factor, which is a really important cognition neurotransmitter in our brains, so very important for cognition. So people who either are insulin resistant like we don't want that either right, or who are on extremely low carbohydrate diets, tend to not be able to solve puzzles as quickly, right, when they're put into these different experiments testing cognition. Also affects sex hormone binding globulin in our bloodstream, so can therefore then affect androgens, so estrogen, progesterone, testosterone and all of the downstream effects there, right.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 47:19

So like insulin does so much, and that's why we kind of see the similar types of health problems in, for example, people with type two diabetes, as we do in long-term ketogenic diets, which certainly have therapeutic potential right, like can be life-changing for people with refractory epilepsy. So I'm like not saying that there's not a time and a place for making that trade, but when we're so focused on weight loss as the only target of a diet and we are only thinking about the weight that we're going to lose, doing whatever the template is, and we're not thinking about the health ramifications. We're in a situation where we're trading health for weight loss and that is because of the lack of nutrients. When you start cutting out foods, developing food fear, you're cutting out the important nutrients that are important for all these other systems and adopting a really simplistic view of things like what insulin does.

Philip Pape: 48:19

Yeah, exactly, there's a lot to unpack. I'm not going to address it all, but kind of the big takeaways for me is one how you shifted from looking at mechanisms, mechanistic outcomes and so many studies, even that not only they're mechanistic, they don't even you know they might be on rats only and there's other confounders there. Like, if you believed some of those studies, you would say protein is terrible for you. You know, and I'm like, okay, so not mechanistic, but more in context. And then I kind of visualized how we have you said, the biggest picture of all and kind of, if you drill from the bottom up, you have the food you mentioned, the potato, all of the compounds, all the nutrients in that and how they work together and sometimes they offset others, and there's the dose level as well. Then you have the food matrix of your diet, right, like, combining all these things together also has context. And then your lifestyle or humanity or whatever level you want to go to.

Philip Pape: 49:10

I'm thinking of, like, the human individual and their day to day and week to week. It's so powerful because it's liberating. I mean it's liberating when people hear that and they're like, look, I really can't eat anything. I just have to, like, understand why I'm doing it and the benefits it gives me and add in, from a nutrient perspective, that's your kind of primary lens is super powerful, so I think this is good. I guess I would ask you if there's anything I hadn't asked I know there's a million questions I could have asked and what your answer would be if there's something you don't want the listener to take away from this.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 49:41

Well, I guess the big thing that I just want to say is that the learning about nutrients I mean, I've tried to make it as easy as possible with my book, with my website, with my social media, but it's still like it's a really big topic, right, there's people who dedicate their entire scientific careers to iteratively expanding human knowledge on like one tiny little piece of it. Right? So, like professor kevin hall, who has done all these like amazing metabolic board studies to bust the insulin model of obesity right, he's dedicated his entire career to just this tiny little piece and his studies are so important, but it's really just like one little piece of an entire field of science, right so? Just like you wouldn't learn all of physics in a day, you wouldn't learn all of chemistry in a day. Or math in a day, you're not going to learn all all of physics in a day. You wouldn't learn all of chemistry in a day. Or math in a day. You're not going to learn all of nutritional sciences in a day.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 50:31

But I also think that increasing our scientific literacy on nutrition topics is not only our path to understanding how to make those easy additions and simple swaps within our food preferences to increase our nutrient intake. But it's also our path to being able to identify misinformation and like fear-based marketing online, and I know that like not everyone agrees with like my point of view. Now, I've done a lot, a lot, a lot of work, both in like understanding where my food fears came from and where my own susceptibility to diet and nutrition misinformation came from. And then extra, extra, extra research to help like fix those things that I got wrong in my own brain and then be able to like communicate that online. And it's okay if you're like not bought into every piece of that, but the understanding, the science right, like understanding how we like go about designing a study so that we can answer these unanswered questions, understanding where the limits of human knowledge are so that we can understand the importance of new research as it's published, and then understanding that basic these nutrients do this, these foods have this nutrients.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 51:55

That is the pathway not just to food choice without stress, but also the worst parts of diet culture that actually preys on how little the average person actually knows about nutrients and that will make for a much more informed user base, right, who are much less susceptible to predatory marketing. So I invite you to come join me on that. Learning Doesn't all happen all at once, but I've created a lot of resources, like my free weekly newsletter, like all of my social media that tries to put that into bite-sized, like fun little pieces so that it doesn't feel like you're back at school but more like you're just like scrolling the most educational yet entertaining social media feed ever.

Philip Pape: 52:42

Such a positive message and I do love your Instagram feed and your reels like walking through the woods we were talking about. They're great. Such a positive message and I do love your Instagram feed and your reels like walking through the woods we were talking about. They're great. Probably a good way to open up your mind. I do want to defend you in a couple of ways for folks, just so you know kind of my context here. Shout out to Aurora, who's a follower of Sarah's, and she turned me on to Sarah. So shout out to you. I know you listen to the show. But two things I noticed. Sometimes the criticism is about evidence, which is kind of insane, because your book has like 40 something pages of citations and you could just yeah 460 studies mostly systematic reviews.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 53:16

Yeah.

Philip Pape: 53:16

Yeah, and you can individually dive into any one of those, just like I looked at the 2016 study you mentioned today, just to make sure you know is she full of it or is she like yeah, solid, and then the score. You know is she full of it or is she like, yeah, solid and then the score. I know you talk about Nutra score. Yeah, nutravor score. Nutravor score not being like a ranking or a judgment, it's just a formula based on nutrient densities. So folks are aware of that. It's a good way to understand if you're trying to put together multiple nutrients. It's just another reference of you know, density, not like this is better than this. So just to kind of me defending you from your stuff. So my listeners understand the context. All right, you mentioned some of those resources. Where do you want to send folks to to learn more about you?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 53:54

Homebase is Nutrivorcom. That's definitely the place with the most detailed maybe academic articles. That's where you can learn about nutrients, foods and how they impact our health. But from there, make sure to click on the join button in the top right menu, because that will link you both to my free weekly newsletter. Bite-sized information, so very like for the person who doesn't think that reading a 12,000 word article busting every myth about vegetable oil sounds like a fun Saturday afternoon. My feelings are not hurt if that's the case. So Bite Size is information is there. But that's also where you can link to my social media. I'm on Instagram, facebook Threads, pinterest, tiktok and YouTube, and I post different content on each platform. There's some overlap, obviously, but a lot of very specific to this platform stuff as well. So wherever you like to hang out online, come join me, and that's where you can also learn about the benefits of joining my Patreon.

Philip Pape: 54:51

And what's your saltiest platform, like where are you most?

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 54:53

controversial, so to speak. Saltiest, I would say, I'm sassiest on TikTok.

Philip Pape: 55:02

Okay, I don't even use that one. But Okay, I don't even use that one.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 55:05

And I would say I'm most responsive on threads, so I'm most like in the comments answering questions on threads. So I would say those are the two places where, like, I really like to hang out online. That's where I spend time engaging with other people's content. So I would say those are probably. If I had to pick two, I'd pick those two.

Philip Pape: 55:25

Okay, and I had reposted something of yours too on mine, so if people go there, they can get to you too. So, all right, thank you so much for coming on. I do wish we had more time. There's a joke about a flat tire I got to deal with today. But thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Sarah Ballantyne: 55:36

Sarah, oh, thank you.

Philip Pape: 55:37

Let's stay in touch you.

Stop Switching Exercises Until Changing THIS First (Tolerance Analysis) | Ep 240

Are you quick to abandon exercises that don't feel quite right? Maybe bench press bothers your shoulders, rows don't hit your back, or squats just feel unstable.

The typical advice is to "just find another exercise." But before you give up on a movement that could be great for your goals, there's an engineering solution you need to try.

You'll learn how the engineering concept of Tolerance Analysis reveals why small, systematic modifications can transform problematic exercises into some of your best movements - all while maintaining proper form principles.

Discover how to methodically test exercise variations, know exactly which variables you can adjust (and by how much), and determine when modifications will work versus when you truly need a different exercise.

Whether you're dealing with discomfort, poor muscle engagement, or exercises that just don't feel right, this episode gives you a systematic approach to optimize movements for YOUR body.

To build your best physique through proper exercise technique (including free form video checks!), join our free Facebook community at facebook.com/groups/witsandweights

Main Takeaways:

• Maintain fundamental movement principles while making small adjustments

• Use systematic testing to find the right variations for your body

• Small, precise modifications often make the biggest difference

• Know when to modify versus when to move on to different exercises

How Small Exercise Tweaks Can Transform Your Workouts

Frustrated with an Exercise? Don’t Quit Yet—Try This First

If you've ever found yourself struggling with a lift—like bench presses irritating your shoulders or squats feeling unstable—you might be tempted to swap it out for something else. But before you abandon a valuable exercise, consider an engineering-inspired approach: tolerance analysis. This method helps you systematically adjust movements while maintaining proper form and focusing on your goals, so you can get results without giving up on the exercise itself.

In Episode 240 of Wits & Weights, we explore how tolerance analysis, a precision method engineers use for design adjustments, can enhance your training. Here’s how this approach could be the key to getting more out of movements you thought were off-limits.

What Is Tolerance Analysis, and Why Should You Use It?

Tolerance analysis is a technique from engineering that defines an acceptable range for modifying a design without compromising its function. Think of it as a checklist for making small adjustments that keep the core function intact. In strength training, this applies well because certain elements of a lift, like the movement pattern, need to stay fixed, while others, like grip or stance, can vary slightly. By knowing what to tweak, you’ll find that “sweet spot” where the movement works for you instead of against you.

Fixed Elements vs. Modifiable Adjustments

Start by getting clear on what must remain constant in any lift to maintain its effectiveness:

• Movement Pattern: Stick to the fundamental motion, whether it's a squat or press.

• Target Muscles: Focus on the correct muscles that should be engaged.

• Joint Alignment: Keep joints in safe alignment, like a vertical bar path during squats.

These are the foundation of your lift, so keep them intact. Once these elements are in place, you can move on to adjusting other aspects.

1. Identify the Modifiable Variables

When you need to fine-tune a lift, start by experimenting with one of these variables at a time:

a. Grip Width

• For a bench press, adjusting your grip can change which muscles are targeted. A close grip hits the triceps, while a wider grip emphasizes the chest.

b. Hand Angle

• Small shifts in hand positioning, like using a neutral grip instead of a pronated one, can reduce strain, especially for those with shoulder issues.

c. Range of Motion

• If you experience discomfort at certain points of a lift (like at the bottom of a bench press), consider limiting the range of motion slightly to avoid joint stress.

d. Tempo and Speed

• Slowing down the eccentric (lowering) phase or pausing at the bottom can enhance control, prevent injury, and provide better muscle engagement. For example, pausing during a squat or bench can build joint resilience.

2. Test One Adjustment at a Time

Just as an engineer would, focus on changing only one thing at a time:

1. Try a grip adjustment on the bench press, like narrowing the grip to alleviate shoulder stress.

2. Observe the impact on comfort, stability, and muscle engagement, and document the outcome.

Isolating one variable allows you to zero in on what works and ensures that the exercise still feels natural without losing the intended benefits.

3. Know When It’s Time to Change Exercises

If you’ve exhausted your adjustment options and the lift still feels uncomfortable or ineffective, it may be time to try a similar but different exercise. For example, if bench pressing continues to aggravate your shoulders despite adjustments, consider switching to an incline press or using dumbbells. Recognizing your limits is crucial to prevent injury and maintain consistent progress.

The Impact of Small Adjustments

Tiny changes, like stance or grip, can have an outsized impact on how a movement feels. With tolerance analysis, you’ll find options you hadn’t considered before, making lifts you once avoided feel accessible and even enjoyable.

So, before scrapping an exercise, give this framework a try. You may find that the right tweaks make it not only doable but effective, letting you keep progressing toward your goals.

Key Takeaway

By using tolerance analysis to make minor but impactful adjustments, you can keep movements effective without compromising technique. When you stay patient, adjust systematically, and track results, you’ll open up new possibilities for each lift, unlocking gains you didn’t know were possible.

If you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to hit follow and leave a review on Wits & Weights. Until next time, keep using your wits, lift those weights, and remember—sometimes, a small tweak makes all the difference.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're struggling with an exercise that just isn't quite working maybe bench press bothers your shoulders, rows don't engage your back properly or squats don't feel stable and you're thinking about abandoning it completely for a different movement hold up. There's an engineering approach that could save that exercise while maintaining perfect form, and today I'm revealing how engineers use tolerance analysis to make precise adjustments to complex systems, and how you can apply this same method to modify exercises without compromising proper technique. Get ready to learn a systematic approach to exercise modification that will unlock better gains for movements that you thought you couldn could do. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape. Now, when an exercise isn't working perfectly, the easy answer is let's switch to something else. Let me just give up and try something else. But what if you could systematically modify that movement, while maintaining proper form and principles of movement, to make it work exactly as intended, so you don't have to abandon it? Today, we're exploring how engineers use tolerance analysis to make precise adjustments within acceptable ranges. Again, you don't have to be an engineer to understand this stuff. I really try to simplify it for you and show you how to use these frameworks to optimize exercise and exercise selection, even when it's not quite clicking for you right now, as always, before we get into it. If you're enjoying the show, if you want more content on building muscle, losing fat, like today's engineering approach, and you're not gonna find this anywhere else, go ahead and hit the follow button right now. It will help more people find the show, but also ensure that you never miss an episode. All right.

Philip Pape: 1:59

So what is the problem we're talking about today? It's something I see all the time with my clients, but I've experienced it myself, having come through shoulder recovery over the last year and wondering can I even do this movement? And, if so, do I need to modify it? Because we don't want to be in pain, we don't want to feel like we can't make progress, and so when an exercise isn't working perfectly, most people usually fall into one of three traps. They either keep forcing themselves to do it anyway, even though they're not getting results and that could be dangerous if it's even causing pain, for example or they start randomly trying all sorts of modifications. All at once, they change a whole bunch of variables their grip, their stance, their angle and they don't really have a plan for that or, most commonly, they just give up and switch to a different exercise. So the real issue is not the fundamental movement pattern itself.

Philip Pape: 2:52

We're going to assume that your strength training for progressive overload, for progressive loading, and you have a decent understanding of how to lift weights and you understand the value of proper form, proper form principles, like maintaining a vertical bar path when you're squatting, or engaging your back instead of your arms when you're rowing or doing a pull down. These are universal principles. They are not negotiable. The problem is finding the right variation within those principles that works for you and your body right now, at this moment. Don't get frustrated or discouraged.

Philip Pape: 3:23

This is where the approach I'm going to share today is going to come in to help you. It's called tolerance analysis. Now, in engineering, tolerance analysis determines the acceptable range for modifying a product or item or design while maintaining the core principles or core specs, core specifications. Right, think about if you had to make a critical part for an engine. The width might need to be exactly 10 millimeters, because that's an important criteria, but the height could vary within certain limits without affecting performance. So the same concept applies perfectly to exercise modification.

Philip Pape: 3:59

Some aspects of a movement are fixed right, like the vertical bar path in a squat. We want that to be non-negotiable. In fact, even having that midfoot center of gravity, you know, within a tiny tolerance, those are the core specifications that we don't change. But other elements have ranges where you can modify them, and so the key is understanding which is which and then how far you can adjust those, while keeping the exercise true to its intended purpose and getting what you want out of it right. Like when you squat. Chances are you're trying to get bigger legs and it may be a specific muscle group quads, hams, you know, glutes but that's that's the purpose of it. So let's just break down systematically how to modify exercises using this framework.

Philip Pape: 4:42

All right, first, you have to be crystal clear on the parts that don't change what is the movement pattern you're going for? Which muscles should be engaged and triggered and targeted? What say joint alignments have to be maintained, right, if you're doing a hinge, trying to do a deadlift. There's a principle there that is a non-negotiable. So you've got that in place right. Let's say it's a um.

Philip Pape: 5:10

Let's go with a bench press right, because I've had shoulder issues and a lot of you listening probably have issues with your shoulder. When it comes to bench press, what are you trying to do? Well, you're probably trying to target the pecs right, the chest muscles, but also the triceps, and you know it depends on the grip and everything else what you're going to target. But there are a lot of variables that you can adjust and still get incredible growth in those few areas that you're going for with the bench press. And so what can you adjust? That's what we have to identify. So with most exercises, you have a few variables to work with. You have grip width.

Philip Pape: 5:47

So think about let's focus on the bench press. You could go with kind of the standard grip, which is a fairly wide grip but not super wide. It's wide enough where your forearms are vertical at the bottom, all right. But we can go narrow, which you see with a close grip, bench press, hence the name. It's gonna target the triceps. You can go much wider, which is more like a power lifting kind of width which shortens the range of motion. So that that's one thing you could change width, and that applies to presses, that applies to pulls, like you could change width on a lot of exercises.

Philip Pape: 6:17

The next variable is your angle of your hands. So think about we often don't even think about our hands. We were like, okay, it's a bench press, it's a straight bar, so my hands are just going to be facing forward, which is effectively pronated. If you were standing up, that's what it's called facing forward. But what if you used a multi-grip bar that lets you have a neutral grip? Right? What if you use a pull-up bar that lets you have a neutral grip? What if you use a trap bar for your rows instead of a barbell to have a neutral grip and for shoulder issues? That can be a huge difference. Just that slight change. What about a lat pull-down? Slight change. What about a lat pulldown? Look at all the attachments you could have for lat pulldown. You don't have to pull down with a pronated grip. You can have a neutral grip pulldown or even a supine like slightly underhand, slightly angled grip with these special attachments. You know the V grips and such that have different angles. There's a lot of different angles you can work with without changing anything else how far you move through the range of motion.

Philip Pape: 7:15

And I say it that way because there is a full range of motion and if you're going for the normal traditional movement. You want the full range of motion. Get the most muscle group muscle engaged, muscle fibers engaged through the lengthened and shortened parts of the muscle. But you might not find that super comfortable for certain movements. Take bench press again If you've got shoulder issues, the very bottom of the muscle. But you might not find that super comfortable for certain movements. Take bench press again If you've got shoulder issues. The very bottom of the movement might be so much of a rotation on your shoulder, there's too much stress there. And so that's where you can say, okay, should I come down almost to that level, but not quite, by using pins in the rack right, more of a rack press than a full press? Should I use a pause at the bottom? Actually, that's a different variable. Let's hold on that. Should I use a slingshot? So it takes some of the load at the very bottom, knowing that I still get to push through the sticking point and work the pecs.

Philip Pape: 8:06

So think about range of motion. You know something like a what do you call it? A barbell row. You know traditional row is fairly bent over. You pull back with your back, um, but you can come up to a higher angle and do more like, like uh, what is it called Yates row where, um, it kind of changes the range of motion a bit as well in the angle. So that's another variable.

Philip Pape: 8:28

Then we have the speed or the tempo, and here you have tons of options. My two favorite options are pause, okay, pause at the bottom of the movement. So pause at the bottom of a squat, a bench, pause at the bottom of anything. Pause at the bottom of a bicep curl. It actually makes a massive difference. It makes it harder, yes, meaning you're going to have to drop the weight, but don't let your ego get in the way, because it could give you much more growth by doing that. Pause and protect your joints and tendons. So think about that.

Philip Pape: 8:57

We also have another way to modify tempo is slowing down the eccentric and exploding on the concentric, like when you're doing dynamic effort movement or compensatory type acceleration, or just just don't get hung up in all the terms. Let's just say a bench press. You come down nice and easy to the chest, you pause for a good one, two count and then you explode up. You might find that feels great on your shoulder, right? Let's say, doing a seated overhead press using a multi-grip bar, right? See, you can get creative and combine these in any different way, but I would only change one thing at once. What else can you change? Your stance width, you can change your stance width, or, on the squat, you can change the heel raise If you're wearing squat shoes or putting plates under your heel. I was trying to help somebody with a front squat and they were trying to front squat barefoot and I said let's just throw some rise under the heels, either standing on plates or wearing squat shoes. And all of a sudden I was like, oh great, now the bar isn't trying to pull me forward, it feels much more comfortable and now I can do the movement. All right. So it's a lot of different things that you can change without actually changing the fundamental movement pattern. I think that's incredibly powerful. It really is. Those are your modifiable specifications. All right, now, when you have that, instead of being overwhelmed.

Philip Pape: 10:19

This is where the engineering mindset comes in Don't change multiple things at once. You want to isolate one variable Again, just like an engineer would isolate one thing at a time. So, going back to the bench, press right. The core principle here is maintaining that consistent bar path with stable, tight shoulders, a slight arch, feet driven into the ground, right, all of those are going to be fixed. And then you change one thing I'm going to bring my grip closer, or I'm going to keep the grip with the same, but I'm going to switch to a multi-grip bar and have a neutral handle and try that and see how it feels, see what the difference feels like. Do it in your warmup both ways and just see how it feels. And then know that you might have to reset a bit on the load, because it's kind of a new movement to your body, but it's a sort of variety that can actually help quite a bit and might translate to the main movement pattern and make it feel better as well in some cases.

Philip Pape: 11:18

Okay, so this requires a little patience, a little experimentation. You know, starting with a small change and keeping everything else the same, and then paying attention. Is your shoulder discomfort relieved, while you're actually able to get the movement in? What about an incline instead of a flat? What about a steeper incline, right? So there's a lot of things that you can change. Make sure to write it down, make sure to log what's happening. Note it in your notebook or app for your workouts. Find that sweet spot where the movement feels better but still accomplishes its intended purpose.

Philip Pape: 11:51

Now the critical piece here is you need to know when you've reached the limit of that modification. Sometimes, despite your best effort, you've made all these changes, it doesn't solve the root movement problem or it starts to compromise form. That's when you have to admit hey, maybe I just want to switch to a different exercise. Maybe I do, maybe I just do want to have a completely different exercise. And in the case of bench press, like going from a bench to a incline, that's technically a different exercise, right, even though they're kind of different angles of the same thing. But you've got to be open to those kinds of more dramatic changes if needed, right. Sometimes you have to redesign the system rather than just modify the piece.

Philip Pape: 12:31

Now, the fascinating thing about this approach that I've been actually using a lot lately. I've been thinking how do I change my grip width, how do I maybe different straps that I'm using, equipment that I'm using? It reveals that small, precise adjustments actually can make a huge difference. They weren't feeling it and all we did is we. We changed the hand angle right, or we adjust the the shoes or um chain, even changed a cue. We were, that's more of a form issue and that tiny change made the difference, and now something that they dreaded and did not look forward to now becomes potentially a cornerstone of that muscle development group. You know, like back development, whatever it is. Like back development, whatever. It is Not reinventing, but finding the variation that allows you to perform it as intended. And that's it. That's it for today. That's really what I want to tell you is think about the creative ways that you can modify your exercises to keep using the same movement patterns.

Philip Pape: 13:29

And, of course, if you found value in today's episode again and you want more content, please hit the follow button and let other people know. If you want to go an extra step and support me, I would love a five-star rating and review in Apple or Spotify. Not enough people do that, even if they follow the podcast, and if you're a super fan, or even a somewhat fan, and you love it and you think it's worth sharing with others, please go ahead and leave a review. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that sometimes the perfect exercise is just a small modification away. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The Lifter’s Guide to BFR Training for Muscle Growth, Rehab, and Recovery | Ep 239

Are you curious about blood flow restriction (BFR) training but unsure how to get results? Or have you tried it and felt it fell short of expectations?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives into a complete, practical guide to incorporating BFR training for maximum muscle growth. He breaks down the science and technique behind BFR, sharing tips on equipment selection, limb placement, and programming that ensure your BFR efforts pay off. Plus, he has a free, downloadable guide on BFR training with protocols, exercise examples, and templates you can start using today.

💪 Download your free Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Training guide or go to witsandweights.com/free

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:59 What is BFR training?
6:40 Equipment and cuff setup for safe, effective BFR training
11:58 Key mistakes to avoid and recommended rep protocol
16:45 Integrating BFR as a supplement to heavy lifting
20:45 Recovery benefits and advanced applications for BFR
23:27 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download your free Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Training guide or go to witsandweights.com/free

The Ultimate Lifter’s Guide to Blood Flow Restriction Training for Muscle Growth

Blood flow restriction (BFR) training has been making waves in the fitness community as a game-changer for muscle growth, rehab, and recovery. In this post, we'll explore how to effectively incorporate BFR into your training routine, addressing common mistakes, the science behind it, and how it can complement your existing workout strategy. If you're looking to enhance your gains while reducing joint stress, you’re in the right place.

What is Blood Flow Restriction Training?

Blood flow restriction training involves using specialized cuffs or bands to partially restrict blood flow to your limbs while performing resistance exercises. This technique allows you to lift significantly lighter weights—typically 20-30% of your one-rep max—while still stimulating muscle hypertrophy. By creating metabolic stress within the muscle, BFR training can help you achieve similar muscle-building results to traditional heavy lifting but with less strain on your joints and central nervous system.

Why Does BFR Training Work?

BFR training leverages the body’s physiological responses to lighter loads. When you restrict blood flow during exercise, it leads to the accumulation of metabolic byproducts, which signal your muscles to grow. This method can also decrease the risk of injury, making it particularly beneficial for those recovering from injuries or looking to maintain muscle mass during deload phases. In essence, it’s a strategic way to enhance your training without compromising your body’s integrity.

Setting Up for Success: Equipment and Execution

To get started with BFR training, having the right equipment is crucial. Avoid cheap elastic bands that can’t provide consistent pressure. Instead, invest in high-quality BFR cuffs, like the ones from Smart Tools, which can be accurately inflated to the recommended limb occlusion pressures. For arms, aim for 50-60% of your limb occlusion pressure (LOP), and for legs, 70-80%. Start on the lower end if you’re new to this technique to ensure comfort and effectiveness.

Common Mistakes in BFR Training

1. Using Too Much Weight: A common pitfall is letting your ego take the reins. Stick to the prescribed light weights—this isn’t the time to impress anyone at the gym.

2. Insufficient Training Volume: Follow the classic BFR protocol of 30-15-15-15 reps with short rest intervals. This volume is essential for maximizing muscle gains.

3. Overusing BFR: Don’t replace all your lifts with BFR. Use it as a complement to your heavy lifting, especially for accessory or isolation movements.

4. Improper Exercise Selection: Focus on isolation exercises like bicep curls, leg extensions, and tricep extensions. BFR is most effective with these types of movements rather than compound lifts.

Programming BFR into Your Routine

Integrating BFR training into your existing workout plan can be seamless if you know when and how to use it. Here are three optimal scenarios:

• As a Finisher: Add BFR to your workout as a finisher after completing your main lifts. This is a great way to enhance muscle pump and volume without additional strain.

• During a Deload: Substitute some of your regular lifts with BFR to maintain muscle stimulus while allowing your body to recover.

• When Dealing with Joint Issues: If you have nagging pains or are recovering from an injury, BFR can allow you to maintain training intensity without further stressing the affected joints.

By following these guidelines and incorporating BFR into your training two to three times a week, you can enjoy the benefits of enhanced muscle growth, improved recovery, and less joint strain.

Conclusion

Blood flow restriction training is a powerful tool for any lifter looking to maximize gains while minimizing injury risk. Remember that it’s just one part of a comprehensive training strategy, and when used correctly, it can be incredibly effective. For a deeper dive into the protocols and tips discussed, don’t forget to download my free comprehensive guide on BFR training.

In this episode, I provide a complete guide to using blood flow restriction training to maximize your muscle growth, whether you're working through an injury or just looking to enhance your routine. Don’t miss out—click the link in the show notes to grab your free BFR training guide!

📲 Send me a text message!

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've been curious about BFR training but aren't sure exactly how to implement it, or maybe you've tried using blood flow restriction but haven't seen the muscle building results you expected. Today's episode is for you, because I am breaking down exactly how to incorporate BFR training into your program for maximum muscle growth, from selecting the right exercises and equipment to programming it alongside your heavy training. You'll learn why so many lifters get subpar results from BFR and, more importantly, how to avoid those mistakes. Whether you're dealing with an injury, looking to add training volume without beating up your joints, or just want another tool in your muscle building toolbox, this episode will show you exactly how to make BFR training work for you. You exactly how to make BFR training work for you. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape. I recently had BFR expert Nick Colosi on the show this was a few weeks back, episode 235, to discuss the science behind blood flow restriction training, and everybody really loved the episode. The response was incredible. It's not something I had talked about before and many of you wanted to learn more about exactly how to implement BFR into your own training. We kind of teased you here and there in the conversation with Nick, but today I wanted to give you exactly that a complete, practical guide to using BFR training for maximum muscle growth. If you are already lifting weights. We'll explore everything from proper setup and exercise selection to how to program it alongside your regular training. Because that's what it is it is a compliment. It is not intended to replace your primary lifting. Plus, I'm going to share the biggest mistakes that I see lifters make with BFR and, of course, how to avoid them. And to go along with today's episode, I've put together a free, comprehensive, downloadable guide called Blood Flow Restriction Training. Just for you, it includes detailed protocols, exercise examples, programming templates that you can start using right away. To get your free copy, just click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash free. Again, that's a free BFR training guide. There's a link in the show notes or you could always go to witsandweightscom slash free. Find it there, along with a ton of other guides that keeps getting expanded over the years that I add to it.

Philip Pape: 2:21

All right, let's break down the BFR training into four segments today. First, I'm going to quickly recap what are we talking about? What is BFR? Why does it work? Especially if you missed the interview with Nick, of course I'm going to link that episode in the show notes so you can go and listen to that. Second, I'm going to go over the proper setup and execution, the technical details that you have to get right when you are using these. I've been using them personally for about three years, so I have quite a bit of experience. Third, I'll share the common mistakes the most common mistakes that I see lifters make with BFR and how to avoid them. And then, finally, I'm going to dig into some of the programming so that you can incorporate BFR systematically into your existing routine. All right, let's start with a quick refresher For those who might have missed my interview with Nick or just want some more details on how this works.

Philip Pape: 3:07

Bfr training blood flow restriction training involves using specialized cuffs. There are bands that you can tighten around your limbs, but I don't recommend them because they are hard to get the right pressure. So usually you want some sort of cuffs, and there are multiple brands on the market. I'm going to tell you which one I use, and the idea is those cuffs partially restrict blood flow, while you're then able to exercise with much lighter weights. And I do mean much lighter to the point where if you've got an ego, you tend to be a little bit embarrassed when somebody sees you hammer curling. You know 20 pounders. I'm talking to guys you know my size who are used to curling. You know 50, 60, 70 pounds in an arm. You go way down from that. So wherever you normally lift, it's going to be a small fraction of that because of the limb occlusion is what it's called 20 to 30% of your one rep max. If you need numbers Again, you might be thinking like how is it possible to then build muscle with such light weights?

Philip Pape: 4:02

You talk all about heavy lifting and lower rep ranges and you talk about strength. You know building strength. So here's where it gets interesting, because I think this is all consistent with what we know about mechanical tension, lifting heavy training close to failure and by close I mean two to three reps or more from failure. We don't often have to go all the way to failure, but here's how it works. From failure. We don't often have to go all the way to failure, but here's how it works by restricting blood flow while keeping the weight low, we create metabolic stress in the muscle far beyond what you would get without that restriction. And then this triggers many of the same muscle building signals you'd get from heavy lifting, but without say the joint stress and the central nervous system fatigue. Now, some of those things are beneficial, not necessarily joint stress per se, but central nervous system fatigue, neuromuscular adaptation all of these are important for heavy lifting, which is why I never tell you to replace heavy lifting with this at all, and Nick didn't either when I interviewed him last time.

Philip Pape: 4:59

But think of it like this when you do a heavy set of squats, you're creating mechanical tension, right, and you're creating it on that, what some people call effective reps, but they're the reps closer to failure. And we're learning more and more. I think Michael Zordos just released the huge meta-analysis that you could be pretty far from failure and still get hypertrophy and still get pretty good results, but it doesn't necessarily give you the most results in terms of strength as well. That's why you still use the range of two to three reps from failure. So when you're doing a heavy set of squats, let's say three sets of five, you know it shouldn't be a grind necessarily, but maybe the last rep of the last set is a grind, but for the most part you're getting close to failure, but not all the way, and that's one pathway to muscle growth.

Philip Pape: 5:46

Now, blood flow restriction, bfr, creates metabolic stress, which is kind of another pathway to muscle growth, but it's still related to the tension piece and what it does is it traps metabolites in the muscle, and there are a lot of theories that you know. Is it cause and effect? Like? Are the metabolites that you're creating in your muscle, lactate, for example, causing the hypertrophy? Are they just a side effect? But we do know that training in that way and this is why we like low reps and moderate reps and different types of tension for different types of exercises and movements to lead to gains through the different mechanisms that lead to gains and putting them all together. This is an argument for variety that lead to gains and putting them all together. This is an argument for variety, if I want to put it that way. This is an argument for variety, not for variety's sake, but to kind of make sure you're taking advantage of the various mechanisms that lead to strength and muscle gain. And here we're primarily talking about muscle, we're talking about hypertrophy. So that's kind of the basics Now I want to segue now into the technical details, that kind of make or break the results you get when you use bfr.

Philip Pape: 6:46

So you're not wasting your time. And I think the equipment is the most important thing to start, because with bad equipment you're just Setting yourself up for either injury or just not getting the results you want, or it's going to be super uncomfortable but not actually work. So I'm talking about those cheap elastic bands that you see on amazon. Okay, and I have a couple of pairs of those that I used for a while and I'm glad I went through that experience because then I realized how inaccurate it was. They're problematic because you cannot measure or control the pressure right and then they loosen up over time and your arms are at different pressures and maybe you can over-tight tighten it and so on. So I personally use and recommend BFR cuffs that you can either pump up to an accurate pressure measure in some other way or they automatically pump up right. They're definitely more expensive. They're electronic devices that have gone through some level of testing but they are safer. They are safer and they're more effective, which is what we need when we're lifting weights.

Philip Pape: 7:45

Really, that's the foundation of anything we do in the your limbs, your upper arms or your upper thighs, period. Do not put them on your forearms, do not put them on your calves. That is mistake number one that I see people make. I see way too many YouTube videos and shorts with people doing calf raises and they're placed just above the calves. And I think kind of what Nick said on the episode was it's all the same plumbing and you're actually increasing your chance of nerve damage by putting them further down, you know, distally on the limb. Put them proximally, at the very top. I shouldn't use those words because you're going to say, well, proximal to the calves is near the calves, okay, forget that, put them at the top of the limb.

Philip Pape: 8:41

So, upper arm, upper thigh, so if the arms place them as high as possible without hitting your armpit, that's all it is. I mean, basically, your armpit is a natural stop. And then for your legs, get them high as you can on your thigh and guess what, your groin, your crotch, is a natural stop. So get them pretty darn close to there and you're good. And then the pressure is crucial and that's why I like the auto-inflating cuffs you want. Otherwise your limbs are going to turn purple, you're going to completely cut off blood flow and it's not what we're going for. And, don't worry, you have a lot of tolerance on that. I mean a significant amount of tolerance on that.

Philip Pape: 9:13

So, if you're using proper cuffs, like the ones I use and yes, I use the one from Smart Tools, and Nick is the founder of Smart Tools, who I interviewed last week, but just so you know the order of events here, I've been using their cuffs for years. I then asked them to be on the show. They then sent me a pair of cuffs after that, which, of course, I'm not going to say no to that. So, yeah, I'm a shill for them, but I also use them. It's kind of like some of the other products I use that I promote because I use them. So I think it's perfectly aligned and these are the best ones on the market. Now they have different versions. Their latest version is quite expensive. I'll be totally honest, it's quite expensive. So they have a version three that came before that. I think they're version four now and it was version three. But whatever the previous version was is significantly lower in cost and I think they may even drop the price when the new one came out, and they're just as effective. They're just a little older, so the way that they get set up and everything is a little bit slightly more clumsy. But I used them for years and I thought they were great. Okay.

Philip Pape: 10:08

So, using cuffs like that, if you find others that auto-inflate, that you respect the company, you think they are tested properly, go for it right. And once you've got those cuffs, you're going to use about 50 to 60% LOP limb occlusion pressure for the arms. So the arms are 50 to 60% and then 70 to 80% for the legs. And if you're new to this, I would start on the lower end of those ranges because it could feel quite uncomfortable.

Philip Pape: 10:35

For me personally, the legs almost hurt. I know, I know they're not. It doesn't actually get to the point of pain, it's just so tight. It's like when you get your blood pressure and you're like, is this supposed to keep inflating? And then you're like, okay, I get it, cause it right around that point it's a. It starts to stop the calibration and say, okay, now we're at your limit, now we're going to dial it back to what percentage you want. So when it's calibrating it might feel uncomfortably tight, but then the actual limb occlusion pressure you select is going to be a little bit backed off from that. So 50 to 60% for arms, 70 to 80% for legs and start lower and build up to it. So that's kind of the details on that.

Shonnetta: 11:14

Hi, my name is Shawnetta and I want to give a big shout out to Philip of Wits and Weights. I discovered his podcast just a few short months ago, but I quickly realized how valuable his content is. With all the many fitness and nutrition influencers out in the world today, I often suffer from information overload, but Philip poses careful questions to his guests that get to the meat of the subject matter, while most everyone offers free guides to this, and that what I found most unique about Philip is his live training and weekly Q&A sessions. If I can't make it live, I can always catch the replay. I am very grateful to find someone I feel is so passionate and genuine to his purpose, while also being hands-on within the Wits and Weights online community. He is truly only a click away. Thanks, philip, for all you do.

Philip Pape: 11:59

Now I want to talk about common mistakes and then what to do about those, the solutions to those mistakes and these will improve your result. So the first one is going too heavy. All right, the first mistake is having an ego and thinking that, okay, I'm just doing bicep curls, so I'm going to go almost as heavy as I normally do. Don't do that. Don't do that. Remember, we are talking 20 to 30% of your one rep max. So if you can curl, let's say, 40 pound dumbbells for your working sets, you might use 10 pounders or 15 pounders for BFR. Seriously, I'm telling you, you got to check your ego at the door with this stuff. If anybody asks you to say, yeah, I'm doing rehab or I'm doing a warmup, okay, not that it matters, but, guys, you know what I'm talking about. Okay, the amazing thing is when you do that and I actually recommend going slightly lighter than heavier, because the protocol we're going to talk about is going to slam you because of the number of reps and you'd be better off starting that way and getting all the reps and feeling accomplished and then knowing what you can go up to, rather than going too high and then be like man, I can only get you know, half the reps I'm supposed to get, it is going to feel plenty heavy by the end of your set. In fact, just this morning I did hammer curls and I was right at the limit using 20 pounders and I actually fell a few reps shy on the final set because it was just so. There was such a massive pump and it was so tight. It felt great but also miserable in a way, and I'm being honest because this is not for everyone and it's not easy Like you think. Oh, lightweights, it's going to be a walk in the park. It's a different kind of hard, that's the way I can put it. It's a different kind of hard. Okay, so that's the first mistake is going too heavy. The second mistake is not using enough volume, and so if you stick to the classic protocol, you'll be fine.

Philip Pape: 13:45

The classic protocol is 30, 15, 15, 15, 30, 15, 15, 15, with 30 seconds rest between sets, super easy to remember, and that first set of 30, 30 is a decent amount of reps, but it still might feel a little bit easy, depending, right, if it actually starts to feel hard at rep 20, you may have selected too high of a weight. Go back to mistake number one and fix that. But it should feel kind of easy but a little bit hard, and then you keep going and by the final set of 15, you're going to feel it Like I said this morning. I on the third set I was like man, I could barely get the 15. And on the fourth set I think I got nine or 10 reps which I was fine with Like it was. I knew for sure that I had trained basically to failure. And they say you're not really supposed to go that close to failure. It should be where you could get all the reps with a little bit left in the tank. But we are talking isolation work, so it's probably not a big deal to kind of experiment. So that's the second one is not getting enough volume. So just follow the protocol 30, 15, 15, 15 with 30 seconds in between. And, by the way, when you're wearing the cuffs that I recommend the smart tools you could do a continuous mode or an intermittent mode. A continuous mode would be they stay inflated the whole time, so that's like hardcore all the way. The intermittent mode is they inflate for the set and then when you tell it the set's done, it will deflate for the rest and then reinflate. You just got to make sure to tell it to start again a few seconds ahead of time, so it inflates by the time the 30 seconds is done.

Philip Pape: 15:11

All right, the third mistake is trying to do all of your lifting with BFR. Okay, don't do that either. Don't think okay, I'm just going to switch everything to BFR. It's going to be a walk in the park and I'm going to get just as much gains. Because they just told me that you can get the same response as a heavy lift but with lighter weights. And the real answer is, first of all, that's not entirely true. Right, it's more of a proxy for that in terms of the metabolic stress, but it doesn't replace the other benefits of heavy lifting, and we talked about that on the podcast with Nick. So I would definitely check it out for deep dive on that subject.

Philip Pape: 15:45

But this is a compliment to your regular training. This is not a replacement for your training. You use it strategically for accessory or isolation work or, say, when you need a deload or when you've got a nagging injury or some pain, and you're able to work with lighter weights without the pain, and now you can add some difficulty to it with the cuffs. That's how I like it. So that's the third mistake. And then the fourth mistake is improper exercise selection. Bfr works best with isolation exercises, especially arm and legs, but it will work distally for your pecs, say on an incline bench, for example, or for your calves on a calf raise. But think isolation exercises, bicep curls, tricep extensions, leg extensions, walking lunges I mean, nick talked about all the use cases where you can do like Bulgarian split squats, walking lunges, just walking in general, or riding on a bike while wearing the cuffs. You can get very creative. So those are some of the mistakes people make and I think it's important to understand what not to do.

Philip Pape: 16:47

And then, finally, I want to talk about how you incorporate BFR into your routine. How do you program with it? And the first question to ask yourself is when should I use it? And I think there are three scenarios. The first is as a finisher after your main lifts. Right, I love finishers because it kind of makes lifting a little more fun. You've got lengthened partials, you've got myoreps, you've got rest pause, you've got all these fun ways to add finishers where you're just adding a little more volume without much stress, right, that's, you know, not only to get a pump, but really to get a little extra hypertrophy volume on the muscle group. So adding BFR as a finisher is a great idea.

Philip Pape: 17:23

Today I did standard bicep, barbell, bicep curls, you know, heavy, like sets of four to eight and then eight to 12. And then I switched to BFR for hammer curls with 20 pounders, where I normally would do the hammer curls with like 50 or 60 at lower reps. So that's a good way to do it. That's scenario one. Scenario two is during a deload, right During a deload, where you're dropping the intensity and you're dropping the volume, think creatively about okay, maybe I'll switch some of my normal exercises that I've been using and just switch them to BFR. That effectively deloads you on those lifts.

Philip Pape: 17:58

And then the third scenario is when dealing with joint issues, and I'm not going to define specifically for you what that might be. It could be a nagging pain or injury, it could be a recovery from surgery. For you what that might be, it could be a nagging pain or injury, it could be a recovery from surgery. It could be just too much stress on the joint fatigue, things like that and you just want to reduce loading in that area. But keep getting the stimulus, keep training. I love that, because then you're saying, look, I'm not going to give up, I'm not just going to rest, I'm going to keep moving and getting the blood flow, I'm going to get the blood flow, and it's a nice compromise or a nice trade-off, I should say. So that's the three scenarios.

Philip Pape: 18:32

As a finisher, during deload or joint issues, and then for a typical four-day upper-lower split just very common type of program the vast majority of people tend to run would look like this. So, on an upper body day, after your main pressing and pulling movements, I would pick a bicep and a tricep exercise, and that would be great for BFR, right, and maybe you want an extra one or two in there without BFR. That's fine, depending on how much time you have. But I would pick one of those isolation movements with biceps or triceps, do with BFR. Maybe it's overhead extensions, line tricep extensions, barbell curls, all the types of curls, so those would be a good idea there.

Philip Pape: 19:08

You could, of course, also incorporate it with like, say, decline push-ups or incline presses with light weights and dumbbells. For example, on lower body days, after your squats, after your deadlifts, after your big movements and accessories, I would choose one quad-focused and one hamstring-focused isolation exercise. So that could be leg extensions, hamstring curls. You might see people doing these with squats. I'm not a huge fan of that. Only because you probably should be getting your squats through main lifts that are heavier and because you tend to have to do a lot of reps with the squats, it ends up being more like a CrossFit workout with a lot of eccentric loading that makes you pretty damn sore the next day, and sometimes that's not what you want. You know, when we're lifting for strength and muscle you don't want to be overly sore, but I'm not discouraging experimenting with it.

Philip Pape: 20:01

Now, the other piece here is cardio. You can incorporate your BFR with cardio, like pushing a prowler going for a walk, and it should up the stress just a little bit without impeding recovery, and kind of enhance the rigor and the difficulty of the cardio and, should you know, burn some more calories. Give you a little bit extra cardio work. There's some correlation with a higher VO2 max for folks that wear BFR. It's a lot of fun ways to do this, and so get creative.

Philip Pape: 20:27

Again, use Google as your friend, reach out to me if you want more specific ideas, and I would say, go ahead and use it two to three times per week per muscle group. I mean no more than that really. I would pick one upper day and one lower day, and then maybe one other day where you use it at the most, and any more than that is probably not necessary and it could impede recovery and it could be taken away from your traditional lifting as well. So got to balance it in there All right. Now, we've talked a lot about building muscle today, but I've also found that BFR is incredible for recovery. Right, and that's one of the main reasons BFR even exists is for rehab and recovery. So you've had a tough training session, like a heavy leg day. The next day, doing some very light BFR work could actually reduce soreness and improve blood flow to the muscles. So think about ways to do that.

Philip Pape: 21:11

A lot of pro athletes use it for this purpose. When I talked to Nick, you know he worked with LeBron James on that, and if you download my guide, you'll see that the cover photo is, with copyright permission, a picture of the King right, king James using it on his legs to recover and he's reading a book or something on a stationary bike, and that's what Nick mentioned. Right, is that there's something super powerful about getting blood flow to the muscles after you've hit them hard, but without beating them up more, to kind of enhance that recovery. And then guess what that does? Is it when you get to the gym the next time you might feel even more fresh and recovered to be able to really hit it hard and get all those reps. Maybe push it a little more, maybe get a little stronger and build more muscle with your traditional lifting, and that's where the power is for this.

Philip Pape: 21:56

So, even if you hear critics talk about well, bfr is kind of you know it's, you don't need it. Like a lot of people say, it's unnecessary because you can just train normally, and there is some truth to that. But there are some other unique benefits to BFR, like recovery, that you might want to give a chance. That will help with your traditional lifting as well, not to mention the mental and the psychological aspect of the kind of variety and getting that pump. It's pretty cool, all right. So as we wrap up today's episode, let me emphasize that BFR training is a powerful tool, but it is only one tool in the toolbox, like anything we do. It's not magic. It's not going to replace heavy compound lifts, but when you use it correctly, it can help you build some muscle with a little bit less joint stress. It can maintain gains during deloads and it can enhance recovery. You don't have to use it, it's just another option. It's pretty cool. A lot of new studies being done on it, so keep an eye out for the literature.

Philip Pape: 22:49

If you have follow-up questions, reach out to me, send me a text message through the show notes and I'll tell you my thoughts. The key here with BFR is you've got to be safe, you've got to be consistent with it, you've got to implement it properly. So start with the guidelines we covered today. I really hope today was a complete guide and then the downloadable guide I made spells it out a little bit more detail so you can reference it. You can go back and say okay, what's the protocol again, and what did he say about limb occlusion pressure, what did he say about where to wear these and so on, and then, as always, track your results, see how you feel and respond and then adjust it based on how your body responds.

Philip Pape: 23:23

And if it doesn't work for you, you know you don't have to use it. So remember, if you want to implement everything we covered today, don't forget, go, grab your free copy of my blood flow restriction training guide. It includes the detailed protocols, the exercise examples and the programming templates that complement everything we discussed today. Just click the link in the show notes or visit witsandweightscom. Slash free Again. That's the BFR training guide, the link's in the show notes or witsandweightscom. All right, everybody, until next time, keep using those wits, lifting those weights, and remember sometimes the smartest way to train isn't just lifting the heaviest weights. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Injury-Resilient Training for Lifetime Strength and Muscle (Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum) | Ep 238

Are nagging injuries and joint pain holding back your progress in the gym? Are you concerned about lifting as you get older, or simply want to stay strong for life?

Philip (@witsandweights) connects with Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum, a seasoned powerlifter, coach, and physician. Together, they tackle the reality of aging and training, providing practical strategies to help you build a resilient body that can stand the test of time. Whether you're new to lifting or an experienced lifter facing setbacks, this conversation will equip you with the tools and confidence to train intelligently for years to come.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum is a powerhouse in the fitness and medical fields, holding an MD, and is ranked as one of the top 20 powerlifters worldwide. He co-founded Barbell Medicine, where he and his team integrate evidence-based practice with strength training, health promotion, and longevity coaching. Through his work, he has empowered lifters of all ages and experience levels to reach their goals with resilience and confidence.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:52 How to program for strength, injury prevention, and longevity in lifting
8:38 Avoiding overuse injuries and common training pitfalls
13:03 The role of variety in injury prevention
20:27 Debunking myths about heavy lifting and joint health
29:11 Understanding training load and soreness Vs. Injury
39:13 Managing fatigue to train effectively for longevity
43:54 Common causes of low-back fatigue and how to address it
50:15 Maintaining strength, realistic goals as you age, and progressive loading
56:19 Outro

Episode resources:

• Barbell Medicine podcast 

• Instagram: @jordan_barbellmedicine/ 

• X: @BarbellMedicine 

• Threads: @jordan_barbellmedicine 

Injury-Resilient Training for Lifetime Strength and Muscle

Are you worried that lifting heavy after 40 might be a ticking time bomb for your joints? Or maybe you're frustrated by nagging injuries slowing your progress? In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum, powerlifter-turned-physician and founder of Barbell Medicine, to uncover evidence-based strategies for bulletproofing your training as you age.

The Truth About Heavy Lifting and Joint Health

One of the most persistent myths in strength training is that heavy lifting inevitably leads to joint problems, especially as we age. Dr. Feigenbaum challenges this notion with compelling evidence: injury rates between powerlifters and bodybuilders are remarkably similar, suggesting that load itself isn't the primary risk factor. What matters more is proper preparation and appropriate progression.

The fear of injury often prevents people from starting or continuing strength training, with about 40% of people citing injury concerns as their reason for not exercising. However, the research shows that being insufficiently active carries its own risks – people who don't exercise experience similar rates of musculoskeletal complaints as those who do.

The Science of Progressive Loading

Rather than focusing on constantly increasing weights or volume (traditional progressive overload), Dr. Feigenbaum advocates for a more nuanced approach called progressive loading. This method emphasizes training hard enough to drive adaptation while staying within your current fitness capacity. The key is allowing these adaptations to occur before increasing loads.

Think of it as a "therapeutic index" for training – there's a sweet spot between the minimum effective dose for results and the maximum recoverable training load. The goal isn't to constantly push this upper limit but to maintain a buffer for sustainability. This approach becomes especially crucial as we age and need to balance progress with recovery.

Smart Exercise Selection for Longevity

Training variety emerges as a crucial factor for injury prevention and long-term progress. Dr. Feigenbaum recommends varying movement patterns within each lift category (squat, hinge, press, pull), potentially using different variations each training session. This variety serves two purposes: it helps distribute training stress across different tissues and improves motor learning.

For example, instead of doing the same back squat variation multiple times per week, you might rotate between:

• Traditional back squats

• Front squats

• Safety bar squats

• Bulgarian split squats

This variation doesn't mean compromising specificity – rather, it's about finding the right balance based on your goals and training experience.

Managing Training Load and Recovery

Recognizing the signs of overuse versus normal training stress becomes crucial for sustainable progress. Watch for decreasing performance over time, persistent soreness that's out of proportion to your training, reduced motivation, and joint-related complaints. These symptoms often indicate you're pushing beyond your recovery capacity.

Dr. Feigenbaum emphasizes that training should be about development, not testing. This means implementing auto-regulation strategies like monitoring daily readiness and adjusting training loads accordingly. The goal is to make training challenging enough to drive progress but not so demanding that it compromises recovery.

Setting Realistic Expectations After 40

While it's true that maintaining peak strength from your 20s and 30s into your 70s might not be realistic, this doesn't mean you can't continue making progress. The key is adjusting expectations and focusing on three evidence-based goals for long-term health:

1. Maximal strength development

2. Muscle hypertrophy

3. Cardiovascular fitness

By prioritizing these areas while managing training load appropriately, you can continue making meaningful progress well into your later years. The focus shifts from constant progression to maintaining capabilities and quality of life.

Practical Implementation

Success in long-term strength training comes down to consistency over intensity. Rather than trying to max out every session or constantly push your limits, focus on sustainable progress. Use RPE (Rate of Perceived Exertion) or RIR (Reps in Reserve) to guide intensity, and remember that not every session needs to be a personal record attempt.

For those wanting to implement these principles, start by assessing your current training program. Are you varying your exercises enough? Are you allowing adequate recovery between challenging sessions? Are you adjusting your training based on daily readiness? These questions can help guide you toward more sustainable training practices.

Remember: Training is about development, not testing. Focus on sustainable progress rather than constantly pushing your limits, and you'll be able to maintain strength and muscle for years to come.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a lifter in your 40s or beyond who's frustrated by nagging injuries slowing your progress, or you're worried that adding more weight to the bar might be a ticking time bomb for your joints and you want to bulletproof your training to be more resilient to injury, this episode is for you. Today I'm sitting down with Dr Jordan Feigenbaum, a powerlifter turned physician. Bridges the gap between heavy lifting and injury prevention. Powerlifter-turned-physician bridges the gap between heavy lifting and injury prevention. You'll discover why age isn't the limiting factor you think. It is how to program intelligently to build strength without breaking down, and the often overlooked recovery strategies that can add years to your lifting life. Whether you're battling chronic pain or just want to ensure you're still crushing it well into your golden years, the practical strategies you're about to learn will give you the confidence to train hard and stay healthy, no matter your age.

Philip Pape: 0:55

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are addressing injury prevention and longevity for lifters with Dr Jordan Feigenbaum. Jordan is both a seasoned strength coach and practicing physician. He holds an MD, is an elite power lifter with one of the top 20 totals of all time and has tons of experience coaching everyone from everyday gym goers to professional athletes.

Philip Pape: 1:24

Now, I personally learned about him through Barbell Medicine and the podcast of the same name, where he and his partner, austin, promote health. They promote performance, longevity, definitely with a focus on resistance training and evidence-based practice, which is why I wanted to invite him on the show Today. You're going to learn how to design your training to maximize strength gains while minimizing injury risk as you age. We'll explore the role of recovery in preventing overuse injuries, debunk some myths about lifting and joint health and give you strategies to build resilience into your training program. You'll discover how to balance intensity and volume for optimal progress, the connection between pain and tissue damage and practical ways to personalize your lifting for any limitations you might have. Jordan, it's an honor to have you on the show.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 2:07

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Philip Pape: 2:09

Yeah, man. So we want to talk about the, I'll say, the older lifting crowd today, which a lot of people I joke about with friends is over 40, right, like as soon as you hit 40 year old. Right, You're both a lifter and a doctor, which, sadly, is not a combination we see too often. I wish it were, and I'm sure you've seen many older lifters struggle with really wanting to push the heavier weights. They want to push the PRs. Some of it's ego, some of it is like we got started late, like I did, and we're trying to catch up, and there's this fear, or sometimes reality, of getting injured. So what, in your opinion, is the main differentiator between lifters who continue making progress safely over the decades and those who experience more interruptions related to, say, injury or joint health?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 2:52

Yeah, great question. Maybe we should answer some easy stuff first, like what's the meaning of life, or like you know what's the purpose.

Philip Pape: 2:58

I'd love to set a floor for this show man. Yeah, yeah, no.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 3:02

Yeah, it's interesting. Think about what sort of predicts you know, long-term, not only like just longevity, as far as being able to participate period, right, but then also like long-term success, because those are slightly different things. You know there's definitely benefits from just participation in exercise, resistance training, conditioning both of them ideally and then actually making progress within those two pursuits, particularly like improvements in maximal strength, improvements in VO2 max. So there's a difference. You want to do both of those things, so improve those things and do it for a long period of time. So, as far as things that predict success and longevity, certainly there's a large genetic component to both which, unfortunately, CRISPR is not yet. We can't do that. So not necessarily Unless you go, CRISPR is not yet we can't do that, so not necessarily going to China.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 3:46

Yeah, right, yeah, so maybe in the future that's going to be a modifiable factor. So genetics are certainly important. Your environment is certainly important, not only like opportunities to exercise but also just what's happening around you. So some social elements, conditioning wise, as far as is this a normal thing for people to engage in resistance training and formalized exercise or, you know, culturally, for example? So it definitely varies.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 4:11

But as far as things that actually most people can probably modify or at least start thinking about, likely has to do primarily with program design, and I you know when people hear that and they start thinking about okay, so I just need to focus on how do I lay out the elements of my programming? You know how far down the rabbit hole do we really need to go to give people actionable advice on what to do? And I think varies by degree, meaning that if you're relatively new, you don't need to have, you know, a PhD in exercise science or sports performance or anything like that to kind of make heads and tails of what the research says and take that away and actually do stuff in your own training. But there are a handful of maybe pillars if you want to call it that term, or heuristics that are useful. And I think the main things are we need to make sure that the training suits you or is fitted to you or individualized to you for your current level of fitness. So that's thing one. And so, unfortunately, when you look up programs that are available online, there are internet age, they're everywhere, which is great, because back when I started lifting that wasn't the case. If you looked up, like you know, lifting program or powerlifting program, you'd get a handful of results. And I'm not being you know, lifting program or powerlifting program, you'd get a handful of results. And I'm not being you know, not exaggerating this, it just wasn't out there. And now the Google return hundreds of thousands, if not millions of things.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 5:32

And so when you're writing a program for a general audience, for their consumption, you're going to you know it's like a bell curve, bell distribution. You're going to get a number of folks, but other folks will be underdosed and other folks will be overdosed and you're kind of just hoping for the best. So that's thing, you know. Pillar number one it's got to be suited to you, the individual, based on your current level of fitness, because that will predict what's your training tolerance, so how much exercise you can do and also your needs right. So those are two things that are related. Second thing is, after, making sure that it's appropriately dosed for the individual is going to be that it actually produces the outcomes that are desired.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 6:08

So if we think about this from like a health promotion standpoint you know, health span and maybe adding on to that lifespan there are a handful of things we have great evidence on that actually promote sort of improvements in health span, reducing the risk of disease, particularly the burden of chronic disease, developing new chronic disease, and then also improves quality of life, puts life in your years. Those would be things like maximal strength, which you could tack on muscular power. To that, those things are kind of related. Obviously, muscular hypertrophy another one of those evidence-based goals and then cardiorespiratory fitness. Now, that's a pretty short list of things, really. Three things, maybe four If you say strength and power are different, which, yeah, short list of things, you know. Really three things, maybe four If you say strength and power are different, which, yeah, the scientists in me definitely would want to make that distinction. But people are going to listen to this and they'll say, well, what about stretching? Or what about?

Philip Pape: 6:51

balance? Or what about mobility Agility?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 6:55

It's not that those things are unrelated to function so how well you can use your strength, for example, or how you interact with the environment it's just that they tend to be adequately addressed by programs that improve muscular strength through ways we typically test them. And I make that caveat because it is possible for me I could put you on a program that was completely isometric, for example, where your muscles don't actually contract and extend, You're just creating force in a fixed position where the muscle doesn't actually move, and I could say, look, you got stronger, but that's probably not doing anything for your range of motion. So anyway, if you got to get really specific with you would want to say, yeah, totally.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 7:32

So you'd want to improve dynamic strength, You'd want to improve muscular size, so muscle cross-sectional area, and you'd want to improve cardiorespiratory fitness, and so that means that the program has to be individualized or adjusted in order to produce those results for people. So when we look at the response of people to exercise interventions, you're going to have the extreme responders. Those are the people that we tend to see at the top of sport. Whatever they be, they just tend to respond super well, whether that's genetically predisposed to doing awesome. Slash the environment, slash other factors, nutrition factors, nutritionally, uh, and lifestyle wise sure, all of those are related. And then there's going to be this group of people that are termed non-responders, who you know in some studies, the short-term ones in particular. They actually lose strength, for example, or lose muscle size, and you're like how is that possible? Because they're actually exercising just not well suited to that program. So even if it was dosed in a way that they could currently tolerate, kind of met them where they're at, it wasn't enough or wasn't the right type of training to elicit the responses that we need to improve health and, ultimately, quality of life. So those two things right off the bat.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 8:37

And then, when we think about how to make sure that goes on for a long period of time, we really just want to avoid the major pitfall when it comes to those who will regularly participate in exercise, which are overuse injuries. Yes, you could go down the list and say, look, acute trauma accidents in the gym. You know the things of that nature. But the biggest source of you know injury when it comes to resistance training and even in cardiorespiratory fitness conditioning exercise, is going to be an overuse injury, which is exactly what it sounds like You're doing too much of the same thing at a load or intensity or, ultimately, a training volume. So a combination of all these factors that you can't currently tolerate and that tends to be predicted by the variety, or really lack thereof, in the program. So it's a person who only does back squats for their lower extremity you know squat pattern training rather than multiple different types of things or only does the same rep range or always goes to failure. So there's like a handful of different elements within programming that can kind of predict that people will have an overuse injury.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 9:41

The last thing I'd add on this would just be consistency, which is no surprise to anyone who's listened to your podcast or any other fitness podcast, because it's the same thing you see in weekend warriors when it comes to sport A person who plays basketball on the weekends, a person who takes a ski trip every winter or something like that and they come back their knees hurt, their elbow hurt, whatever.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 9:59

It has mostly to do with being prepared for the tasks that they're asking their body to do, and so if you have these long gaps where you're not training, you're not preparing for what you're asking your body to do, yeah, that does set you up for an injury. So ultimately, you'd want the thing to be dosed properly, not only for the person's current fitness level but their actual responsiveness to the thing, so they actually get the results that we want. You'd want to make sure that the training is heavily varied so that there's less risk of an overuse injury, although not so varied that you're kind of spreading yourself too thin and then do that consistently for a long period of time, and I don't know that those things are. Any of those things are controversial, like someone's listening to this and like, wow, you just opened my eyes but yeah, you could have luck in there, but I don't know that's a modifiable risk factor either.

Philip Pape: 10:52

So, yeah, the things you can and can't control. I hear you, man Cause it's funny, you mentioned it wouldn't surprise anyone, maybe people who'd listened to our shows consistently, but every day and I'm sure you get it as well People ask how heavy should I lift, how much recovery should I get? You know this, this, this, and you're like, well, it depends, you know. Let's add like 10 assumptions or caveats. Here's a program for a newer lifter, but here are your caveats. And so you mentioned the suitability, the minimum effective dose. You know, going for the actual goal you want. Because someone says how do I train? Well, what are you trying to do? Right, like, if you're a backcountry mountain goat hunter, you know which I know a guy like that versus you know you really care about endurance. There's a huge difference there. So, looking at strength, hypertrophy, power and fitness, I do love thinking of it as that kind of pie that covers all types of fitness that extend or correlate from that. And then the different levels of response, you know, knowing that even when you start something, you may not respond like someone else. So, jordan, it's funny, I just had it came out today.

Philip Pape: 11:48

Um, as we're recording this, justin Cottle he's an anatomy expert and he was talking about what he sees like in a cadaver, related to people who lift versus those who don't. And there were two things I was going to mention. One I can remember is the genetic variation between people and their response levels, down to the, you know, sarcoplasm, sarcomere, myosin levels. You know what I mean. Down to that level, how vastly different it can be. And there was one other thing I can't remember, but oh, the variety.

Philip Pape: 12:17

You talked about variety, like there's some of the bro science about shocking and muscle confusion and this and that. But I think there is a kernel of truth to that when you talk about not getting injured right, not like back squatting every session forever, but also the neuromuscular. In a way. There's a progressive loading aspect to that, beyond just adding weight to the bar of inserting this variety. Can we segue just a little bit on that? So, for example, westside conjugate right, one of the principles there is you rotate through like six or seven variants of a main lift and they knew intuitively that if you don't do that you're going to get over, fatigued or overuse from the one lift. Can we jumpstart off of that to talk about variety and muscle confusion and that whole idea?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 13:03

Yeah, sure.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 13:05

So I think again, when we're going to kind of bring all of these sort of ideas around program design back to those core sort of goals that we're looking for.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 13:14

So again, strength, power, hypertrophy, cardio, free fitness. So when you think about exercise selection, exercise mode, so the type of exercise that you're selecting and increasing variety within those domains, what you are really trying to do is use to leverage the body's ability to learn how to move we call it motor learning, for example and so some pretty decent evidence in my estimation, particularly with respect to physical task performance, that people learn better when they have an increase in variety of physical tasks that they have to perform, particularly when they're untrained. And so if you have a person who's not very well trained in the squat, for example, you might intuitively believe that if you just have them do one type of squat, they're going to become very efficient at doing that, meaning that they're going to clean up their technique in such a way where they're maximizing muscular force production in a way to move the bar completely vertically. But and granted, none of these studies have been done on the squat per se, but I think there is-.

Philip Pape: 14:14

Of course not. It's always the leg press.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 14:16

Leg press, leg extension or even more dynamic tasks jumping, stuff like that the idea is that if you give people slight differences in the movement pattern and so, again, if we use a squat, it's a back squat and then a front squat, maybe it's a high bar and a low bar, back squat, a safety squat, bar squat or a leg press or single leg work, for example the prediction that we would make, based on the current evidence, is that people would get better and more proficient at moving their body in space and come up with additional strategies to perform the physical task under periods of fatigue or duress or whatever, which is what happens in a workout anyway, right, and so you just get better at not only like this kinesthetic awareness where's your body in space but also you have additional strategies to leverage in order to move the weight, for example. So you not only get more efficient motor learning wise, you can pick things up a little faster, but you also have more resources to kind of use. So that's thing one. You're also distributing the training load, which again, is this term referring to not only volume, but also intensity, proximity to failure, frequency, all of the variables that kind of turn the program from this idea pie in the sky. To put it on paper, you're distributing it over more and more mass of tissue, right. It's not just always loading the patellar tendon or the ligament in the same way. You're doing it in different ways, and so you give the body a greater opportunity to adapt to those things, rather than maybe outkicking your coverage by kind of specializing.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 15:44

It doesn't mean that there's no place for specialization, and so when I think about Westside, I think about okay, what was Westside like designed for? It's mostly, you know, its original iteration was for powerlifters, and so powerlifter, we know the domains of sport squat, bench, deadlift, one rep, right. And so you know, in the off the off season, pre-season, before you're like actually going into specified meat prep, yeah, you would have a wide variety of movements, but once you get closer to the meat, you really want to focus in on the. You know things you need to do on meat day, and so there's times for specificity as well. The problem I see is that people get excited about lifting, which I'm 100 in in favor of. I want you to get bit by the bug, but I also don't want people to perseverate on a particular, a single form of a lift, a single rep range, for example, because ultimately I think that increases the risk of an overuse injury.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 16:37

So time for both being relatively varied than relatively specific, but taken to extreme for too long on either end, I think, is you're missing the boat. So one example of being too varied maybe all the time would be like some iterations of CrossFit, and then too specific on the other end would be some type of like the Bulgarian training. You know where you're maxing out daily which can be useful in short periods of time, but you think about expanding that over to eight weeks, 12 weeks, 16 weeks, 24 weeks. You're like I predict that most people are not going to be able to tolerate that and the people you hear about that did well on it. Well, that's survivor bias, right? You're like you're the only person left standing right and you're able to demonstrate these great results, whereas we're all the people who didn't make it that far.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 17:22

So when I think about practical implementation of variety for your general strength conditioning enthusiast I think about, you have a handful of movement patterns. Well, we can classify them as a squat pattern, a hinge pattern, a press pattern and a row or pull pattern, and I don't know that there's much benefit to repeating the exact movement more than once per week. Now, granted, that's speculative, right, you could make the case should you repeat them more than once every two weeks. We don't know, this is just more speculation, but when it comes time for me to actually generate a program, I think about all right, this person's going to do a squat pattern, squat type pattern, two times a week. I'm doing two different variations. If it's three times a week, three different variations. Four times a week, four different variations. And again you can make them very diverse.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 18:16

So like a back squat versus a Bulgarian split squat versus a step up. You know what I'm saying. That's big, big variances. Or they can be closer Back squat, low bar. Back squat, high bar, two count, pause squat, back squat. You know you're like okay, these are more similar, but still little variety. So it just depends on what is the end goal. What are you training for? What gets you up in the morning to go to the gym, for example? So that's kind of how I think about variety.

Philip Pape: 18:36

Yeah, I love that. I think there's a lot of counterintuitive and revelatory things that you said in there. Knowing the population that I know, when it comes to lifting there are definitely camps right. There's the kind of the starting strength and the basic but boring in the strength lifts side which, again, for new lifters, almost any program could be super effective and if you're committed and you want to learn those movement patterns, get strong fast, they could work. On the other hand, you have, you know, the six, seven day a week, bodybuilding. Every single movement's different and the fact that it's not just about fun, even though that's important. It's also the fact that your body engages in motor learning and you might actually become more efficient at the patterns you ironically, are doing less frequently now by mixing it up. It's heartening to people who wonder about that and think, oh, am I just slowing myself down and then even distributing the training load. When we talk about injury, we talk about longevity. That is super important. You think of whether it's muscle weaknesses or whatever the term people want to use. You're kind of distributing and letting your body use its system and do the movement patterns all across the board and you might be surprised how I mean, I found that doing weighted dips helped my overhead press and you're like, doing weighted dips helped my overhead press and when you look at the history of powerlifters and guys like Bill Starr, you see they did that and you're wondering why. Okay, so really good stuff.

Philip Pape: 19:52

I want to dive in a little bit to the joint health topic or arguments people make. A lot of people are fearful. If they're brand new to lifting, they're fearful. They're going to get injured just lifting in general, because of bad form or what have you, or because it's too heavy, or because their bones are going to break. They're fearful. They're going to get injured just lifting in general because of bad form or what have you, or because it's too heavy, or because their bones are going to break because they're now menopausal, whatever it is. Then you have, on the other hand, you know, dedicated lifters have been doing this for years who are worried about too much repetition of compound lifts and lower rep ranges on their joint health. What does the current evidence say about heavy lifting, you know, in our kind of sphere and joint health?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 20:27

Yeah, no, that's a great question, and even like joint health, it's more of this like nebulous umbrella term. I think on the one hand, we all understand what it means You're talking about pain-free sort of range of motion and being able to use it actively and passively, and then Connective tissue.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 20:41

No tendonitis you know, yeah, great function being able to walk up the stairs. Yeah, sure, totally yeah. So you know, there's this assumption, as you mentioned, that okay, if you train heavier rather than lighter, for example, just generally speaking, same proximity to failure, meaning you're doing three reps, two repetitions left in reserve, versus 10 reps left in reserve there's a thought well, the three reps definitely got to be heavier for a given exercise compared to the 10-rep set, and if it's heavier, so you're doing the three-rep set, you're at a higher risk of injury, whether we're talking about acute, catastrophic injury or a chronic sort of overuse injury, and you would expect that to play out with a pretty robust signal in the data, meaning that if you looked at powerlifters training presumably in the powerlifting way, all right, which is generally lower reps, getting ready for maximal strength sort of test on the platform, that they would have higher injury rates than, say, something like bodybuilders, right, that are training the same types of lifts, because then that's another sort of variable that we'd want to adjust and on balance, you don't really see that. You know, you can look at different data sets and come up with slightly different numbers, but when I look at them, and just just with the understanding that across all types of training resistance training the average injury rate is two to four injuries per 1,000 participation hours. And there are some bodybuilding-specific data sets that show, oh, it's 1.5 injuries per 1,000 participation hours, and there's other bodybuilding data sets that are up to three and a half injuries. So it just varies, right, because you just need a big sample size and how you define injuries. There's a bunch of other stuff. Do a whole podcast on that, but I think it's boring, don't need to do that.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 22:12

And then you look at powerlifting datasets and you see almost a mirror image of that, right. And so then you're like, even if there was a slight, maybe benefit or reduced risk of injury in bodybuilding, in my estimation, based on the existing data that we have, it's not robust enough to feel confident in that opinion that heavier is always a higher risk, higher risk, the biggest thing here. That is not an evidence-based sort of idea. This is more practical experience and the way I think about it. If somebody is not prepared for the task they're being asked to do, I do think that incurs a higher risk. How much higher depends on how far removed that is from their preparation, how novel it is to them, and so there's this kind of like open window theory of risk, meaning that if you're doing something new, you're effectively opening a window, and that window is wide open at first until you get used to it, have some exposure, have some experience with it. And so if it's your first time doing powerlifting training and you're asked to do one repetition, for example, like pretty close to failure just to see where you're at, and you've never done a one rep challenge test before, well, that's probably higher risk compared to somebody that's done single repetition work for years and years and years. But you don't need to study to tell you that.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 23:25

That said, if it were inherently risky meaning just dead bodies everywhere you would see that in the literature and not just in the injury data. We're talking about exercise science at large, where they routinely test people's one rep max to garner exercise prescription for loads. They'll have elderly individuals, people in their 60s, in their 70s, in their 80s even and they'll max them out on a leg extension and then say, okay, for the next eight weeks we're doing, we're starting at 65%, they're going 70%, 75%. Well, where's that percentage coming from? It's a one rep max test and what do they do? How do they obtain that At the beginning of the study, when these people were untrained. And again, there's not bodies everywhere, right?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 24:02

So I think the assumption that heavier loads are always more risky doesn't make sense to me for a given exercise. Just the caveat there is you need to be prepared for that and working up to that would probably be best practices. So I personally wouldn't test somebody's one rep max day one you could. I think there is some increased risk. I just don't know how big that risk is and I think it's relatively small compared to the risk of not exercising at all due to fear of injury. But to your point earlier most people well, most people don't exercise period. And and you ask them why, 40% of them will respond they don't exercise because they're afraid of getting hurt. And then, if you ask them further, why are they afraid? And it's something learned sort of thing, whether it's through social conditioning, they've had friends who've gotten hurt or they've learned it from who they consider an expert resource usually healthcare professional. Unfortunately, doctors say dumb stuff all the time.

Speaker 3: 24:56

Expert resource usually healthcare professional unfortunately, doctors say dumb stuff all the time. Shout out to Philip Pei. I've known Philip for a long time. I know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength, and that's why I choose him to be my coach. I was no stranger to dieting and body training, but I always struggled to do it sustainably. Philip helped me prioritize my goals with evidence-based recommendations while not overstressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy, but now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently but, most importantly, I do it sustainably. If a scientifically sound, healthy diet and a lean, strong body is what you're looking for, philip Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape: 25:44

It's true. That's why I like guys like you on the show. You know we need more doctors who know their stuff and lift yeah.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 25:49

I'm just not convinced that the load itself is particularly risky, even in like subgroup analysis and some of these studies where they look at like, well, what about just the competition period? Only If we isolate just the competition period, so at a meet or the last few weeks before a meet, where the loads are heavier compared to generalized training, is there a higher injury incidence? Not really In Olympic weightlifting, in powerlifting, and you're like huh. Well, how confident am I in this claim that heavier weights are generally more risky? And I'm like I don't think they are. I think there's a maybe a little kernel, a nugget of truth in there saying that if you compare to set going all the way to failure versus a set that's like three or four reps shy of failure, I think the set that's a few reps shy of failure is probably less risky due to the fatigue stuff that happens later on, you know, as you get closer to failure, all the way to failure, and maybe that sort of the effect that we're seeing in the injury data, if any.

Philip Pape: 26:46

But even then we're not talking about this huge like cataclysmic effect again, otherwise you'd see bodies right and you'd see people who had back surgeries and knee surgeries who got back into heavy lifting and do really well not be able to do that.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 27:00

I think I mean it's super helpful one of the most interesting studies on this has to do with people who don't exercise. They're insufficiently active. I prefer that to the term sedentary. It makes me feel better, just about. You know how I'm labeling these people. I don't say, oh, you're sedentary, it's insufficiently active, we're working on it. You would expect, if you're of this very mechanistic mindset, that heavier loading worse, lighter loading better than taken to its logical end, logical conclusion there.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 27:28

You'd say, well, if the person isn't, exercising they should have a near zero risk of musculoskeletal injury.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 27:36

But that's not the case. In fact, they did this year-long study. They took people both previously and sufficiently active two groups. Half the groups were subject to do six hours per week of conditioning, pretty like moderate intensity conditioning, I think it was at like 75% of their VO2 max, six hours a week, which is, yeah, pretty significant versus people who did no exercise. And the musculoskeletal injury complaint rate was effectively the same between groups. Because there's just this non-zero risk of being a human for injury, like, yeah, people have low back pain, they don't exercise. People have shoulder pain, don't exercise. People have knee pain, they don't exercise. And so you would expect again, if it was just really tied to loading just literally the weight on the bar, the weight on the machine or whatever, you would expect it to be significantly higher in folks who regularly challenge their body with weights. But you just don't see that. So, yeah, I'm bearish on that. I don't think it's no.

Philip Pape: 28:27

No, I totally agree. I was giving you the platform because I want people to have the confidence to get started lifting and to lift heavy. I mean, there are definitely plenty of anecdotes of people who had back pain, for example, who now started deadlifting and the pain goes away. I hear that way more often than I hear people getting injured lifting. So if that's the case, when we talk about overuse because back earlier, when you're talking about the pillars you mentioned, that was kind of the one thing and it's tied to a lack of preparation, which is, I think, a good way to think of it as a principle, because then it can apply to lots of different contexts. When you say lack of preparation right the specificity and progressively loading up to that point and so on, what do you mean by overuse? How do people know that they're overusing and how do we not do that?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 29:10

Yeah, unfortunately, you don't know that you're overusing until it's too late, which is the problem. Right, it like declares itself and you're like dang, that was too much. So people may be familiar with the term like overtraining, which you know if you're an exercise scientist Overreaching overtraining, yeah, yeah, yeah, so like words have meaning and unfortunately you got to get a little pedantic about it.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 29:27

It's like overtraining refers to a syndrome, right, Generally including endocrinology changes. So like thyroid hormone will go down, cortisol is way up, people have poor appetite, poor sleep, feel irritable, et cetera. Never been described in resistance training, not once it's been investigated. They've had people max out daily for over a month in a row, trying to like make them overtrained, and it turns out they just got better at lifting heavy weights. So like, yeah, which by definition should not happen if you're overtrained. Also, injury risk during that period was also relatively low.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 29:56

But if people are familiar with this concept maybe of overtraining, we're just doing too much. It's like okay, well, what do you mean by too much? What does that refer to? It's not just too much weight, it's a combination of weight on the bar, how close your efforts are to failure, whether it's resistance training or conditioning, and how much of it you're doing. So volume, right. And so that all encapsulates this thing we like to refer to as training load, and training load you can think about that as a sort of external sort of stress, meaning it's all the stuff that you could write down on paper that is pertinent to your program. So again, sets, reps, rest periods, proximity to failure, intensity, whatever that gets applied to the individual, okay, okay. And they experience it in different ways, and the way that they experience it can be monitored by heart rate change, heart rate variability, heart rate recovery. For example, rpe can be useful for to just tell us how hard it was, you can apply the same external stress, external stimulus in this case, to an individual group of individuals and they'll experience it differently, based on their current fitness level, their genetics, their expectations, so psychological the environment that they're in. Right, Are they in a powerlifting gym where there's death metal playing chalk in the air? You know whatever back slaps are going on, or are they doing it like a curves? You know different sort of settings.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 31:11

So, anyway, all of that is to say that when I'm talking about overuse, it means that the experience of the training, the external stimulus, is too much for them to currently tolerate and then ultimately recover from, and it's usually not a singular instance. It's repeatedly kind of insulting the body in a way that you can't sort of keep your head above water and so you drown. In this case it usually results in musculoskeletal pain. So most of the time these overuse injuries, they're kind of insidious. It's not like I did one squat and my knee started hurting. That can happen with an acute sort of catastrophic injury. Unfortunately, or fortunately, rather, those are relatively rare.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 31:47

So this sort of overuse thing is just too much training load, experienced chronically for the individual and ultimately produces this sort of these pain syndromes that people have. And so then what do you do? You're basically now you got a person who's been exercising, has pain, and you're like what do? What do I do about that? You tell them well, you're going to have to exercise still, but in a different way that's currently accessible to you. And so I just want people to.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 32:12

When they think about overuse injury, I don't want them to think about like I did one thing wrong and that's what happened. It's more of chronically. You were exposing yourself to something that you couldn't currently tolerate, whether it was due to the nuts and bolts of the program, that external sort of stimulus, or your environment. Your lifestyle suddenly changed lost your job, stressful season at work, less sleep, relationship troubles, financial stress, dietarily you now have a bunch of nutritional stress you didn't have before, For example. All of those things can change the experience that somebody has to a given type of training intervention. And so, again, if there's a mismatch between the training load being imparted on somebody and their ability to tolerate it and then subsequently recover from it, well, that portends a risk of overtraining, and in this case we would define overtraining as like the appearance of an overuse injury, even though that's not the classical definition of overtraining syndrome.

Philip Pape: 33:04

It's all right, we'll forgive you for that. Yeah, so this is really good because people, I guess, oversimplify the idea of pain and overuse or maybe they avoid training too hard, thinking that it's going to be a problem. Like you said, it's the total load or stimulus and it's too much to recover from because of chronic occurrence and it results in some form of pain, which leads to the question what types of soreness slash pain, slash some other feeling, and when should people be concerned? Because newer lifters are very confused about that. Like I talked to somebody the other day, she had a little bit of soreness and had been one day and it was something new and I said is it getting better? Oh, it's getting a little better. I said, okay, let's, I think it's gonna be fine. You're just scared. It's like a new experience to you, but color that for us yeah, no, that's a great question.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 33:51

I mean, you know there's like how sore is too sore or how often is, you know, being sore a problem. I think maybe one of the best use cases here that's applicable actually to one of the evidence based goals talked about in the beginning hypertrophy. So it variably, when people start doing resistance training or really any type of exercise, your risk of soreness goes up, mainly because it's a novel physical task that you're being asked of and if the muscles are forced to move through a dynamic range of motion so they're extending and shortening under load, yeah, your risk of having some sort of muscle soreness, whether it's delayed onset muscle soreness or just muscular fatigue or other, that goes up and that's not unusual. But in the case of hypertrophy we think that's due at least partially to muscle protein breakdown. Your muscles are made out of protein, water and some other stuff and muscular protein breakdown can increase DOMS, that late onset muscle soreness. When it comes to hypertrophy, what you're really looking to have happen is that you, over time, you get better at tolerating the exercise, you get used to it, you accommodate the stress and you get less muscle protein breakdown which allows the sort of muscle protein synthesis, the recovery efforts to outpace the amount of muscle protein that you're breaking down. And so that's why, when you look at hypertrophy studies, it's very rare, particularly for untrained individuals, that they grow muscle in the first three, four, five, even six weeks. Rather, that's like the just keep your head above water kind of deal with the soreness that you're having and then after that you start seeing muscular growth.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 35:20

And so what I predict and kind of how I think about how often should people be sore, how severe should it be, it's that initially having some soreness is fine and I would expect that on most sessions, in fact if somebody's very new to training. But that should get become few and far between as somebody gets more and more trained. Yes, if you take time off and kind of come back, I would expect a slight uptick. But again, it should be this general trend of waning soreness as somebody becomes more and more trained. And if the dose of training is correct, being actually sore from a workout should be relatively infrequent. If you're never sore, ever, to me that suggests underdosed training. So it's kind of like an artifact of properly dosed training where you're sore relatively infrequently but still sometimes, if that makes sense.

Philip Pape: 36:05

And at the beginning of that new stimulus or cycle or program yeah, yeah, or there's an increase in training load, for example.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 36:11

All of us. Yeah, that would all be times where you'd expect an increase in soreness, but it should be generally waning and getting less and less and less, with occasional upticks and as far as when it becomes worrisome, it's when the soreness is out of proportion to what you did. Like you said, I didn't really do that much yesterday. I am cripplingly sore and it's like, okay, was the environment that you were doing this in very harsh? It was really hot, humid, for example, under hydrated. This happens all the time in field athletes. Or are you actually sick and you didn't know that and you did the same training? You didn't adjust that to your current level of fitness on that day and so you actually had a much higher training stress than you otherwise would have predicted. You experienced a much higher level of training stress If you were underslept.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 36:54

That can happen too. In fact, lack of sleep or sleep deprivation is a big risk factor for injury incidents, particularly in athletes. That's been most studied in college-aged athletes, for example. So all of those things can kind of tip the scales as far as what somebody is able to tolerate, but ultimately I would expect soreness again to happen, sometimes generally decreasing as somebody becomes more and more trained, and then I only get worried about it if it's out of proportion to what happen, sometimes generally decreasing as somebody becomes more and more trained, and then I only get worried about it if it's out of proportion to what they did, very severely limiting as far as function goes, and or acute. So the delayed onset muscle soreness stuff happens the day after, two days after, may persist for a few days, even after that up to five or six days.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 37:33

But if it happens like I did one set and now my legs, both quads, for example, are you know eight out of 10 pain, that's not soreness to me that is more suggestive of like maybe something acute happened, particularly if it persists. It just doesn't go away. I recall one particular study on youth individuals. They were trying to characterize the incidence of injury risk in kids lifting weights. They recalled this one kid who had 30 seconds of 10 out of 10 quad pain. That just went away, like they didn't do anything, but it just went away and they're like yeah, well, that was an injury that the person had and we're like was it though? So it kind of comes back to definitions like what is an injury? But anyway, I get another podcast.

Philip Pape: 38:11

I hear you, I mean 10 by 10s in CrossFit. Take me back to when I was sore and probably didn't need to be chasing that soreness, so I want to piggyback off this is really good, the soreness piece, because then there's the fatigue. You know magic word fatigue that we use, and I think in one of your Insta posts recently, so I'm going to do an Oprah on you here. I've got some quotes.

Philip Pape: 38:31

Training must match an individual's fitness level that day, which you just said being hard enough to drive an adaptation, but not too hard where it drives too much fatigue. Now I would say, if you're tracking your program, if you're being consistent, like you said, with your frequency and volume, and you're progressing what you call progressive loading not necessarily overloading you should be at least prepared to know what is appropriate, in spite or independent of all these other variables you mentioned, like it's very hot or hydration's an issue. So maybe the question is how do you know that you're pushing that fatigue or driving too much fatigue, or how do you get ahead of it in terms of that biofeedback, those other variables?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 39:09

I know it's not a exact science, but you know yeah, no, it's a million dollar question, maybe a billion dollar question. You know, if we were really able to reliably predict fatigue in a quantifiable manner and then monitor it, man, that'd be cool. But there's been multiple efforts to try to do that. So people have used things like session RPE, for example, where after the end of a session you rate it one to 10, 10 was like I'm so fatigued, I can't do anything else. One is I didn't do anything, I'm at rest, right. So that's one way and you would prefer most of your sessions to probably fall in that. You know six to eight type range for like adequate sort of stimulus, but not too much, unless it was like an active recovery thing, in which case it'd be much, much less than that. If you find that after most sessions it's session RP 10, you would predict that would be a little too high. For example, other methods that have been tried and implemented variability is like this way to kind of test like oh, are you recovered or not? No data on that in resistance training, only in the endurance world, and there's a lot of nuance there. Again, that probably would deserve a multi-part podcast series, but that again, people have been trying to measure this for a long time. As far as the way I do this in practice monitoring fatigue it's more of this like subjective battery of how do you feel on average when you come into a training session. Are you super motivated to train? You're excited to do so or generally excited? Is your performance more or less holding up, despite having recent fatigue implemented from training? Are you super sore? For example, are you having any sort of you know boiling or bubbling, percolating injuries that you feel like are popping up? Your you know your joints are sore, for example, much fatigue. You would expect them to have lower training motivation. You would expect them to have decreasing levels of performance. You would expect them to have more soreness on average, more sort of joint related complaints on average. And that kind of tells you like the training stress I'm exposing myself to is a little bit too much right now. It doesn't mean you're doing too much volume per se, but maybe you're doing too much volume of stuff that's too close to failure and so practically kind of figuring out a way to get pretty close to the sun but not too close where you burn yourself.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 41:17

I think a concept that could be useful to folks is this sort of therapeutic index for training, meaning that there's a low end right Minimal effective dose, if you want to use that term and then an upper end, maybe that you call that maximal recoverable training load. You know, just to make up terms here, you don't need to be all the way at the limit to get the maximum benefit. You want to be trending that way, like on average, getting close to that, but you can leave a little safety buffer in there, and so I want people to understand that you don't have to go to the well max out, leave it all in the gym every single session. In fact, I would say that's unsustainable. Rather, it just needs to be hard enough to drive the adaptations that you want For strength training. You don't have to be really anywhere close to failure. When I say close to failure, I'm talking about one rep.

Philip Pape: 42:07

Zero one RP. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 42:08

You can be three reps shy of failure, five reps shy of failure, in fact, if it's over about 70% of your one rep max, I think that's going to make you most people pretty strong, even if they have five reps left in the tank. When it comes to hypertrophy, particularly so muscle growth, particularly for isolation exercises, you can actually send it a little bit closer to failure, right? The thing that's important to note there is the stakes are lower. When you're talking about isolation exercises, it's much lower muscle mass, right. The weights on average are lower. The sort of risk of failure is generally lower.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 42:40

Oh, I failed a biceps curl, oh no. Compared to oh, I failed a squat, a heavy squat, yeah, much, much bigger sort of potential, the stakes are much higher there. So this therapeutic index of like exercise, as I view it, gives us a wide range to sort of get something from our efforts right and to maximize that. Sure, we want to push it towards the upper end, but I don't know that it's useful to get super close to that top end, like what's the maximum amount of stuff I can?

Philip Pape: 43:04

do Icarus threshold? Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, I think that's yeah, a good takeaway.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 43:08

No, that's a good takeaway.

Philip Pape: 43:09

No, that's good. The therapeutic index. And again, I like how there's a system here of variables. It's multifactorial and, like you said, you might be training close to failure and that's perfectly fine. But if you're doing it to such an extent that that's the issue, it's the volume, it's the training to failure, it's the frequency, all of it together. You mentioned joint health. What about the big one that comes up all the time, low back fatigue? Right, that's like the one I hear personally most often, especially for older folks, of this mysterious low back fatigue that doesn't always seem attributable to a specific movement. You know they might squat and it's fine. Then they do an RDL and it hits them. Then they're fine on the next RDL, but it happens after their bench press and they're like maybe it's my arching. What's going on there? What's the low back mystery all about?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 43:54

Yeah, no, it's a great question I mean. So, first off, low back pain in general is super common, I think, for the lifetime risk for adults globally is like approaching 90%, so most people are going to have at least some about of low back pain. As far as the most common causes of low back pain, yeah, big question mark we don't know, because most low back pain is what's called non-specific. That isn't meant to minimize anybody's experience, right? Doesn't mean that just popped up out of nowhere, we have no idea why, or whatever. It just means that it's probably not due to a specific anatomical structure like oh, we got to go, you know, is this a ligament around the spine, for example, example? Is it a disc related? Is it, you know, related to your hips, for example? It's nonspecific, meaning that it's probably a constellation of things and your pain experience is real. It just means that there's not a pain generator that we can localize and need to work on, which, on the one hand, is good news because we don't need to wait for something specific to heal in order to get back after it, but it's also not academically satisfying, or even satisfying to the patient, because they're like well, what's wrong? Why did I have this, but this is a great example of maybe some of that overuse type injury. You know, there's this like threshold of load, training load or maybe a better way of describing it as like a physical activity load, or you could even extend that to like physical activity load in a particular environment load, right, like super stressful environment versus you know, somebody who's well-rested, well-fed and you know otherwise sleep, you know something like that. So if people kind of Icarus, flying too close to the sun, based on their training, based on their lifestyle or whatever they may sensitize themselves during particular movements right so, an RDL in this case, or a deadlift in another case, or arching on the bench press, the problem then is like, well, if I'm having pain when doing this, I don't want to expose myself to those positions which can be problematic, because if people's expectation is, you know, you lay down on the bench, you arch like ow, pain and extension. I'm sensitive to extension, particularly in this posture. I don't want to do that and it's like, okay, so now your expectation is every time that you arch in this way or you adopt that type of posture, you're going to have pain.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 46:03

People start kind of they get this condition called kinesiophobia they're afraid of particular movements, and so one of our strategies then is if somebody is experiencing sensitivity in particular positions, we want to do the most threatening type of movement that they can do, like they can currently tolerate, as their entry point back to physical activity. So in the case of like an RDL, right, somebody says all right, full weight, rdl, normal weight. They're doing sets of five or eight or something like that and they're having sensitivity at that loading level, with that full range of motion. Doing an RDL, what do? Well, we could increase the rep range, which would lighten the load. So maybe it's a load-related sort of sensitivity. If that doesn't work, maybe we slow down the tempo to lower the load even further or potentially give them chance to feel like they're maintaining a slightly different position, even if that's not really happening. It's getting sort of mind games, if you will.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 46:52

Another option is reducing the range of motion. So perhaps it's range of motion related. And if none of those things are tolerable, you're like maybe this is a no-go, we need to regress even further and so that it's like a trap bar, you know, type partial deadlift, for example, or hip thrust, you go even further back. So there are options there, but as far as what's actually happening, I think it's back to that concept of just tissue sensitization, or maybe we'll call it tissue-brain connection sensitization, because you can't separate the two things. So just sensitization due to high of fatigue, due to too high of training load in a particular environment and I know that's an unsatisfying answer for a lot of folks.

Philip Pape: 47:29

No, it's super solid to me. I mean I like the. I mean effectively, it's facing your fears in a way which it applies, for example, to people who've had surgery and they're afraid to be active again, especially when you have doctors saying don't do anything for months and months and months and maybe need to get under the bar earlier than you think Just to build up to that. I remember I had a deadlift sling when I had my rotator cuff surgery, just so I could get back to deadlifts with one arm because I was so missing it. But some people will have the opposite of like that's it, I'm done, I can never do this again. Or you know, I had knee surgery. I can never squat again. And yeah, you want to say something about that?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 48:02

Yeah, Well, what you would prefer for people to have is basically unrestricted movement potential, meaning that they could do whatever it is they want to do, even if they don't do everything right.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 48:16

But you don't want people to have these sort of limitations on like, ah, I can't do that because of this pain sensitivity. You'd want to identify those things, work on them actively and then just give people the option, like, should you want to do this or need to do this, usually in some case outside of the gym, well, you have access to that right and you're relatively well-prepared to tolerate that, and so you can go on. The biggest issue I see with lifters as they go on through time is that they keep pulling out exercises, movement patterns, ranges of motion that either ah, I had a little injury or I don't particularly like that, or whatever, and so they get more and more specific to something, to stuff that they like over the years and they're missing this whole sort of cadre of other physical development and effectively atrophying over time. And it's like which, again, is why I intentionally even with myself, I have to intentionally broaden, because, if left to my own devices, I like to squat, bench, deadlift, yeah.

Philip Pape: 49:03

Another case for variety?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 49:04

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Philip Pape: 49:05

Yeah, yeah, no, this is great, yeah. So the next thing I actually wanted to ask you about was kind of the other end, the folks because I know there's a lot listening who really do go all out. They love PRs, they love getting stronger. Maybe they push too hard, right. Maybe they don't have any of these fears. They do the variety, they just push, push, push.

Philip Pape: 49:22

We talked about a lot of the aspects of fatigue, but some of it comes from a little bit of ego and something you talked about recently, which is how people would love to maintain their peak, especially if they were lifting early in life, like their 20s, 30s, 40s. I didn't start to my 40s, so I don't have that exact experience, but like, hey, in my 20s I could deadlift 700 and now I'm approaching 70. Also, you mentioned that people who start lifting later in life are not gonna be able to get as strong as when they were earlier. So sometimes they maybe overreach and I've seen that. Given this reality, where does realistic goals piece of this come in for, that being the cause of, say, overuse or fatigue, if you know what I mean?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 50:04

Just aging in general being the cause of.

Philip Pape: 50:07

Yeah, aging ego wanting to be strong, keep getting strong forever.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 50:11

Yeah, yeah, I mean, we all want to be strong, keep getting strong forever. Yeah, yeah, I mean we all want to, but Totally, is it possible? Well, I think what happens in general as people age, especially if we just move like general population, right, musculoskeletal injury rates tend to go up as people get older. I view that as mostly a symptom of detraining due to insufficient activity. People just become less and less active, whether that's due to occupational demands, familial demands, the constellation of those things.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 50:35

People are tired, whatever You're, just exercising less, moving less, and ultimately their body responds accordingly.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 50:40

It adapts to what's being asked of it and so, yeah, your threshold for what you can tolerate goes down. And so people might experience that in training where they say I can't go as heavy as often as I used to and it's like, well, that's probably a function of what you've been doing the last few years, not like what's happening chronologically on the calendar. So I think that, barring market reductions in sort of training time, training resources and just activity in general, the issue that is likely to happen and this is kind of a black box there's something that's going to happen in various periods of our lives. Our performance is going to go down and we don't know why I don't have a solid answer, why I can give you all these mechanisms but, like as far as which one's causal or which ones are causal, I think there's a bunch of them and it's like you know, death by a thousand cuts. It's not just one thing that's leading to a 20% decline, it's you know, 20 things leading to 1% decline.

Philip Pape: 51:32

No man, it's my hormones, it's cortisol. It's cortisol Totally, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 51:37

Probably a nervous system more than anything. But the point is people, they sort of forget what they learned along the way. Again, we don't want to fly too close to the sun, we want it to be hard enough, but not too hard. And you want to do a lot of that stuff as much as you can without outkicking your coverage. Well, if you're still hanging on to what you were doing 10 years ago, five years ago, and that's not who you are presently, again you're outkicking your coverage. It's the same thing that would have happened if you did the same thing 10 years ago. You have these overuse injuries, and so I think if you stick to the script, if you're like, okay, it needs to be hard enough to develop a training adaptation on this day and you keep clocking those wins, punching in, punching out, day after day, it is likely you're going to have lots of success in your lifting career, and by success I mean demonstrable improvements or, as you age, maintenance to the best of our ability, with performance and a relatively low risk of injury, barring terrible luck and or terrible genetics. And so we can't do anything about the genetics and luck kind of is what it is. But the stuff we can modify is mostly going to be training related, and so I think most people, if they can wrap their heads around some sort of auto-regulation on a given training session, can probably avoid most of that. Meaning that if it's a number on the bar you have historically in your brain, that's great, but is that the appropriate load for today?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 52:55

Training is about development. It's not about testing. I don't need to test you every time you're in the gym. Yes, we could do that, but we can do that intelligently at a low stakes sort of situation. So again, rather than one rep max all the way to failure, I could do it at 80%. A one rep effort.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 53:15

That would give me enough data to say here's how strong you are today. Meaning that here's the rest of your loads for this particular exercise should be to be within that therapeutic index and we can give yourself a little buffer. So that's kind of. I think people kind of mess this up, as they're attached to these historical performances, they ignore all the stuff that we talked about and they're like, yeah, well, I've been doing this for 20 years and so I can just do this right now. It's like, look man, no, you couldn't have done that 20 years ago anyway, you know. So like I would avoid kind of being too attached to a particular number in training Competition. Do what you got to do, but in training the main thing is make sure you're getting an effect and don't fly too close to the sun.

Philip Pape: 53:51

Love it, man Clocking in the winds, auto-regulation that is huge. And then I like what you said training is development, not testing. That's a really good line. Just people keep that in mind. Constant growth from where you are right now in the last session, not necessarily who you were in your 20s or even six weeks ago. All right. So as we wrap up, is there anything that you wish I had asked that we didn't cover and what would be your answer to that?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 54:15

No, I think the only thing I mean. You mentioned this progressive loading thing versus progressive overload and if people have never heard that, we do have an article about that on our website. It's titled Progressive Loading. We've got a podcast on it as well. But just as a brief takeaway, it's the same kind of messaging throughout this entire podcast, the messaging throughout this entire podcast.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 54:29

The point of the training is to provide you enough stimulus to get what you want out of it, but not too much where you can't recover from it. So with the idea of progressive loading, you have to increase either the weight, reps or total training load as you become fitter, but not before the adequate training stress is there to drive fitness. And once fitness has gone up, then you have to increase the training stimulus, but not before you get bigger, faster, stronger, so you can lift more weights, go faster, et cetera. Okay, so it's kind of a chicken and egg situation in my estimation. People want to go, increase the weight, increase the reps or increase the pace before they've actually generated those adaptations the idea that you have to overload the body and it's like it shouldn't actually get any harder. You just got fitter.

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 55:14

That Greg LeMond quote. You know it never gets easier, you just go faster. Well, in this case, you know it never gets any harder, you just get fitter and so the load go up, you're able to do more reps, do more sets, etc. And so progressive loading, I think actually might actually be the key here. People are saying, I don't know this auto-regulation shit, like whatever Progressive loading might be the key takeaway.

Philip Pape: 55:33

No, I love it. You train right to the limit of your current capability, that Icarus threshold not pass, and not even into that little regime right on the hairy edge where you're just not getting anything out of it, and then that makes you bigger, faster, stronger. To do that again over and Cool. I think we covered a lot about training. I hope people got I know they did got some really good strategies out of this to modify their approach, because it really comes down to the principles more than like a specific workout program. For example, when can listeners learn more about you, Jordan?

Dr. Jordan Feigenbaum: 56:00

Sure, yeah, barbell Medicine. You search that on Google, you're going to find all of our stuff. My personal Instagram account is Jordan, underscore Barbell Medicine. You can find me there. You can find me on Twitter threads. People seem to like my threads stuff. I'm a little salty on there. It's just just that outlet for me. So if you search barbell medicine, you can find all of our stuff and we'd love to have you part of our community.

Philip Pape: 56:19

Cool man, I'll put all that stuff in the show notes so people can find you. I will, of course, keep following you as well, and I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show.

Is Excess Protein Turned Into Sugar and Fat? (Input-Output Systems) | Ep 237

Is that scoop of protein powder helping you build muscle, or is it just being wasted and turned into sugar and fat?

Today, we're using the engineering concept of Input-Output Systems to bust this common protein myth and help you make informed decisions about your protein intake and supplements like whey and pea/rice powder.

Listener Sara S. asked about claims that protein powder isn't used by the body and is instead converted to sugar and fat. Learn about the science of protein metabolism and explain why these claims don't hold up to scrutiny.

Learn how to choose the right protein powder for your goals and why it can be a valuable tool in optimizing your overall nutrition strategy.

To get your question answered on a future episode, send me a text message.

Try 1st Phorm protein powder as mentioned on the episode.

Main Takeaways:

• Your body is an efficient input-output system that uses protein powder (and any "extra" protein) in a very specific way

• High-quality protein powders, especially whey, are highly bioavailable and can be just as good (or superior to) many whole-food protein sources for muscle protein synthesis

• When choosing a protein powder, there are specific objective elements you should look for rather than believing any particular marketing claim

• Protein powder can help optimize your overall nutrition by making it easier to meet protein goals and has a surprising benefit when building muscle in a gaining phase

Episode summary:

In the latest episode of Wits and Weights, we dive deep into the world of protein powders, debunking myths and exploring their true role in supporting your fitness journey. Hosted by Philip Pape, the episode begins by challenging the widespread misconception that protein powder is wasted by the body or transformed into sugar or fat. Using a listener's query as inspiration, Pape delves into the science behind protein metabolism, likening the body to a complex manufacturing plant where protein serves as a raw material for producing muscle, energy, and hormones.

The discussion begins by addressing the input-output system model, which is pivotal in understanding how the body processes protein. Protein is not simply converted into sugar or fat as some might claim. Instead, the body efficiently utilizes protein for essential functions like muscle repair and growth, enzyme production, and immune function. Only when the body's immediate protein needs are met does excess protein potentially convert into glucose via gluconeogenesis, and even then, it's primarily used for energy rather than stored as fat. This insight dispels the myth that protein powder is a direct pathway to weight gain, clarifying that any weight increase results from an overall calorie surplus, not the protein itself.

The episode further explores the advantages of high-quality protein powders such as whey, pea, and rice proteins. These powders are highlighted for their bioavailability and rich amino acid profiles, with whey protein particularly noted for its high leucine content, crucial for muscle protein synthesis. This underscores the idea that protein powders can be as effective as whole food sources, providing a convenient solution for those with high protein requirements or busy lifestyles.

Pape provides practical advice on choosing the right protein powder, emphasizing the importance of protein content, amino acid profiles, and brand reliability. He warns against misleading marketing claims, encouraging listeners to focus on the ingredients and third-party testing. Brands like First Form and Legion are recommended for their quality and transparency, offering a reliable source of protein supplementation.

In a detailed examination of protein powder myths, Pape reassures listeners that protein powder is not inherently inferior to whole foods. While some might argue for whole foods due to their comprehensive nutrient profiles, protein powders offer a practical alternative for those struggling to meet their protein needs. They are particularly beneficial for individuals who need easily digestible protein, such as those in a muscle-building phase or individuals who struggle with appetite.

The episode also touches on the psychological and practical benefits of incorporating protein powder into a fitness routine. For many, protein powder serves as an essential tool for achieving protein intake goals, supporting muscle growth and recovery. By debunking myths and providing a clear understanding of protein metabolism, Pape empowers listeners to make informed decisions about their protein sources, ensuring they can confidently fuel their fitness journey.

As the episode concludes, Pape encourages listeners to keep lifting weights and using their wits, reminding them that their body is a complex system capable of achieving the desired outcomes with the right inputs. This comprehensive exploration of protein powder's role in fitness provides valuable insights, helping listeners navigate the often confusing world of nutritional supplements.

For those seeking to optimize their fitness journey, understanding the science behind protein powder and its role in muscle building is crucial. This episode of Wits and Weights offers a balanced perspective, blending scientific evidence with practical advice to support listeners in making informed decisions about their nutrition and fitness strategies. Whether you're a seasoned athlete or just beginning your fitness journey, the insights shared in this episode can help you harness the power of protein to achieve your goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you like, using protein powder to support your muscle building goals, but you've heard claims that it's just wasted. If you have too much protein or too much protein powder, or it turns into sugar or fat and you're questioning should I even be using this stuff? This episode is for you. Today, we are talking about input output systems to understand how your body processes protein powder. You'll discover the truth about the protein powder is wasted claim and how to choose the right one for your goals. So if you want to know whether that scoop of protein is helping you or just going down the drain, stick around. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:59

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're answering a question that's been floating around the fitness industry for years Is protein powder actually used by your body or does it turn into sugar and fat? Now, I was a little bit surprised that this question is so common, but I've heard it multiple times. Sometimes people are talking about excess protein in general, but some brands actually make this claim, and I was. I was pretty shocked, but maybe I shouldn't be, and so this question comes from listener, sarah S, and I wanted to give her a big shout out for inspiring today's episode, because she wrote, quote I've been using protein powder again recently after giving it up for a while. The reason I gave it up is sources like and I'm going to leave the brand name out claim that protein powder isn't actually used by the body and is instead turned into sugar than fat in our bodies. I've been using a different brand name protein powder recently, but we'll be trying this other brand name's new powder as soon as it runs out. What are your thoughts on this? End quote All right, thank you for the question, sarah, because it is one I'm sure many listeners have wondered about, if they've heard this claim, and today we're going to get into some of the science and engineering behind protein metabolism to get to the bottom of this. And so I just want to jump into the topic today and address the claim that protein powder isn't used by your body and just turns into sugar and fat, and I'm going to extend this to apply to quote-unquote excess protein in general, because this one idea or the other has been floating around for quite a while and I still hear it, and it's based on a misunderstanding of how our bodies process protein, and so we're going to use a concept from engineering today called input-output systems.

Philip Pape: 2:44

Very simply, an input-output system is a model that describes how a system processes inputs to produce outputs. And think of it like a manufacturing plant. Raw materials go in steel, wood, whatever finished products come out, and your body is essentially a highly complex input-output system. The food that you eat, including the protein powder, that's the input, and then the outputs are things like your energy, your muscle tissue, your hormones and, yes, sometimes stored energy in the form of fat. It's got to go somewhere. Let's just put it that way. Now the confusion comes in, because some people claim protein powder goes straight from input to an unwanted output like sugar or fat, without being used for its intended purpose. But our bodies are much more complex. We know this. They're very good at adapting as well, and so let's talk about exactly how this works.

Philip Pape: 3:39

On the input side, when you consume protein powder, it's broken down into amino acids in your digestive tract, and these are the raw materials Again, the manufacturing plant analogy. These are your raw materials, amino acids that your body then uses for a whole bunch of metabolic processes. So, number two, processing. Your body does stuff with this. It distributes them. It distributes the amino acids where they are needed. This could be muscle repair and growth, it could be enzyme production, it could be immune function. There's actually a ton of things that amino acids are used for. Very exhaustive list. And then number three, the output.

Philip Pape: 4:23

Only when your body has more protein than it immediately needs will some of it potentially be converted to glucose through a process called gluconeogenesis. Right, and that's when you hear of it. Okay, it's converted to sugar, and even then, this glucose is then primarily used for energy. Right, it doesn't mean it's automatically stored as fat. It's like any other source of glucose, namely, for example, carbs. Right, we don't avoid them because we're worried about getting fat. Actually, I should. That I knew as soon as I said it out of my mouth what the response would be. A lot of people think you should avoid them because they make you fat, but in reality they do not. We know this because plenty of healthy, fit people can eat hundreds of carbs, grams of carbs, and be in peak performance and health and body composition and leanness, myself included. So we know that that doesn't happen. And so that's the same glucose that protein can get converted to as well through gluconeogenesis, but it rarely happens. It actually rarely gets to that point.

Philip Pape: 5:18

Your body is very efficient. It doesn't just take a valuable input like protein and just immediately convert it into some waste product. I mean, that would be like a car engine turning fuel straight into exhaust without moving, without producing motion or energy at all. And so I want to address the specific claim about protein powder being inferior to whole food sources. First, or not. First, but in addition to this, as a side tangent, because it's important, I think high quality protein powders, especially whey or pea and rice protein, which is great for vegetarians or people who avoid milk products, are actually some of the most bioavailable protein sources out there. Right, and so your body can efficiently use them for muscle protein synthesis. That's why I don't shy away from them at all, and I think most people trying to get a decent amount of protein you know, 120, 140, 160 grams will often end up supplementing a bit with some protein powder. Right, and it's convenient in other ways. But despite all that, you know, whey protein is sometimes considered superior to many whole food protein sources because of the high leucine content. Right, leucine is one of the essential amino acids and it's the most important one, or at least it's one of the most crucial ones, for triggering muscle protein synthesis. And if you look at, if you take a whole list of protein sources and rank them in terms of percentage of leucine content, whey is going to be at the top.

Philip Pape: 6:45

So now, why do some people experience, say, weight gain when using protein powder? Well, it has nothing to do with the protein itself being converted to fat. It's simply because they're over-consuming calories, period, and they haven't adjusted to anything else. You can definitely get fat on protein if you just eat too much of it, and by too much I don't mean too much for your body. There's no such thing as too much protein in and of itself, but there is such thing as too much protein leading to too much calories. Too many calories, and then you're over consuming and gaining weight when you don't intend to. That's it right.

Philip Pape: 7:19

Our body is an input output system. It follows the laws of thermodynamics. If you constantly consume more energy than you expend, you're going to gain weight, regardless of the source of those calories. Period, end of story on that. That's it. So that's kind of the long and the short of it. When you think about it, our body's going to use the energy and anything it can't use it's either going to expend or store, depending on how much you've consumed right and how much you are, how much you need it and by needed I mean all the things you're doing, as well as all the things going on inside your body, as well as what your organs need and so on. So I think that settles it. In other words, the answer is no. It's not going to get converted to sugar and fat and make you fat. Yes, it can get converted to glucose if all the protein you possibly need in your body has been used, but very few people actually get to that point. In fact, we know that you can consume quite a bit of protein and it's still going to get used. And you can consume it even all in one meal in a day instead of spreading it out, and it's still going to get used. Recent research even backs that up. So there's a ton of flexibility.

Philip Pape: 8:22

Now as far as like choosing the right protein powder, because, sarah, you mentioned trying all these different brands. Again, I'm not going to mention them on the show and frankly, I don't think you have to jump around. I think if you find one that meets the general things that you're going for, without big marketing claims, you're good. Of course, even good ones have good marketing, so that can be confusing as well. What matters most is the ingredients, the protein content, the amino acid profile, and that it's a trusted brand. So what do you look for? Number one protein content. It should like a scoop of protein of like 26 to 30 grams should have most of those grams as protein. So if it's 30 grams as a scoop and it's like 26 grams of protein, you're good. But if it's a 30 gram scoop and it has, you know, 15 or 20, something's off. There's something else in there, you know, it's just, it's just a matter of weight, right?

Philip Pape: 9:17

Then you also want to look at the amino acid profile. If it's whey protein, you're fine, but I've seen some wonky brands that claim to be whey and then when you then they list their amino acids and are missing some of the essential amino acids, and that is fishy to me as well, unless it's just a typo on their nutrition label. Then the next thing which is important for more important for some than others is the number of ingredients and the additives, right? Fewer ingredients usually means less processing, and you want to look out for things that you may be concerned about. You may be concerned about red dye, you may be concerned about artificial sweeteners or other things that are in there, and not all proteins are pure protein too. Some proteins are like whole food substitutes and they have carbs in there as well, or they're like meal replacement proteins. So just watch out, because it may have a bunch of carbs that you didn't want, because they're put in there on purpose for people who want that. And then, lastly, just make sure that you're getting what's on the label because of the quality of the company and the third-party testing that they do so, for example. This is why I usually recommend a brand like Legion or First Form brands like that. I use them all. I use a bunch of brands, but First Form is one that I love for protein powder. They meet all the criteria.

Philip Pape: 10:34

Maybe some people would argue that on the ingredient side there are purer forms. Excuse me, there are purer, less ingredient versions of powder out there, but if you want kind of the flavored protein, you're gonna end up having some extra ingredients in there. Of course, you can get pure, just pure whey protein, nothing else in there, and then you flavor it how you want, if you even need it flavored, or you just dump it in some milk or almond milk and just chug it down. It works really well with milk because it basically is come, it comes from milk, um, and then you know if it meets all the criteria and it tastes the way you want. Great, you know, that's it. And if you want to try out first form, I will put the link in the show notes to find some products in First Form. But that's all I'm going to say about it.

Philip Pape: 11:15

Just keep in mind that protein powder is a supplement. It's not a necessity. It's not technically a quote-unquote whole food, but from the nutritional and health profile it is pretty much just as good as whole food, if you will. Some people will argue with that and you can have your opinion, but a lot of people I found have success when they couldn't quite get their protein. They do a little supplementation with protein powder and now they're good and they're better off than the alternative of constantly missing on their protein. And then of course you try to shift toward more and more whole foods.

Philip Pape: 11:48

Right, if you have a high protein requirement, if you have a busy lifestyle, if you travel, if protein powder can be a convenient and perfectly effective way to support muscle growth and recovery. There's another cool little benefit of protein power and that's it kind of. If you're in a muscle building phase, for example, it is more easily digestible and doesn't take up as much space. It is kind of slightly less filling than a whole food version of protein. This can be a benefit if you need the extra calories, right, if you feel like you can't fit it in. Actually, in fact, I've had many female clients, you know women who they're not on that high level of calories but yet they still don't get hungry. And I find this with older women as well, like in menopause. For some reason they just don't have the hunger they used to have because of their hormones and they're like how do I even eat more? I feel full already. Protein powder can be great for that.

Philip Pape: 12:41

So if you're struggling to meet your protein goals, consider protein powder. It's just fine, any brand that meets the criteria we talked about. Don't worry about over-consuming or just general consumption leading to sugar and fat storage. It doesn't work that way. Only energy balance and calorie consumption leads to excess fat storage and that's it. You got to find what works for you and for your lifestyle and don't listen to what other people say with a fear mongering. Right, if protein powder helps you consistently meet your goals and support your training, it can definitely be a valuable part of your nutrition strategy.

Philip Pape: 13:12

So again, if you want to try high quality protein powder that I personally use and recommend, definitely check out First Form. They're third party tested. They taste really good, they mix really easily, and then I'll throw the link in my show notes for that. Give it a try. Let me know your favorite flavor. They've got a lot of cool flavors. They have some pumpkin stuff now, of course, for the fall. No surprise. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your body is a complex system but with the right inputs you can engineer the outputs that you want. And yes, protein powder is perfectly fine. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever started a new fat loss phase or training program with enthusiasm, only to have it derailed by unexpected events like illness, work, stress or family emergencies, and you find yourself constantly falling off track and struggling to maintain consistency with your goals, this episode's for you. Today, I'm going to reveal how the engineering concept of risk management can help you create a bulletproof plan that adapts to life's chaos and uncertainty. You'll learn how to build flexibility and resilience into your nutrition and training approach so you can keep making progress even when life throws curveballs your way. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are diving into a concept from the corporate world risk management. Hear me out, it is not as boring as it sounds. It's not just for big corporations and Wall Street types. This is an engineering principle and I've used it almost every day in my engineering career. That can be a real secret weapon for creating a sustainable, resilient, adaptable plan and in this case we're talking about your fitness, your nutrition and so on that will then stand up to real life, because, think about it, how many times have you started something new. You're super excited. You're entering a fat loss phase, starting a new training program. You're ready to go Monday? Right, I'm going to start on Monday. You're all fired up, ready to go, and then it falls apart, sometimes pretty quickly, when unexpected stuff happens. Right, maybe you got sick, maybe you had to travel for work, maybe some family obligations just took over your schedule. You know, 20 people visited your house, whatever. And suddenly that quote, unquote, perfect plan that you had mapped out goes right out the window, and so we're going to talk about that today. I'm going to show you how to use risk management principles to create an approach that can bend without breaking, no matter what life throws your way, because that's what we want, that is what is sustainable, something that you can just keep doing, no matter what, knowing that the default is life. Life is the default. Things that are unexpected is actually the norm. And before we dive into that, just really quick. If you enjoy the show, if you want to hear more episodes like this, hit follow in your app. It helps people find the show, but it also makes sure that you don't miss an episode. Just hit the follow button, make sure that you go into your podcast app you're listening right now and click, follow or subscribe whatever it's called.

Philip Pape: 2:50

All right, let's talk about the main reason that most plans fail, and this this is really any plan right, whether it's in the corporate world, engineering or with your fitness. And the biggest culprit here is rigidity. We create perfect, ideal scenarios in our heads, and I do this as well. Our future self is going to be perfect. I'm going to work out five days a week, I'm going to meal prep every Sunday, I'm never going to touch food after 7 pm, I'm going to get my 12,000 steps a day and it's just going to work out Right. Sound familiar, even if you think you have the discipline and willpower to do it. And the problem is, life doesn't care about this, life doesn't care about your plan. Life is messy, it's unpredictable, it loves to throw wrenches even to the best laid schemes that we create. And then what do most people do when this happens? They think they failed, they beat themselves up. They oftentimes just give up like, oh, I just can't be consistent, I can't stick to my plan because this happened, and that is the all or nothing mentality that leads to frustration and inconsistency. And this is where risk management comes in.

Philip Pape: 4:00

In engineering, risk management, sometimes called risk and opportunities management, is about planning for the known and unknown risks to get to your outcome, to achieve your objective, to get the product out the door on time, on budget, meeting all the requirements, and it's not about creating a perfect plan. It's about creating one that is resilient to all the things that you may not foresee, and there's two types of risk we deal with. So this is really important. There are foreseeable risks. These are the known unknowns. Okay, these are things we can predict that might happen, based on our experience and based on common sense. It's the things that you know are going to happen, but you're not sure when like getting sick, like having to travel for work, like dealing with holidays, social events. You know they're going to happen. They're known unknowns. That's foreseeable. Then there's unforeseeable risks. These are unknown unknowns, things that you don't know. You don't know the curve balls that you could not have possibly anticipated, like a family emergency that pops up or you suddenly have to move, or a global pandemic hits right, so sound familiar. And those are the. So there's the what we know, we don't know, and what we don't know that we don't know. And the thing is, we know that all of that is going to happen. We know that the unknowns are going to happen and we know that the unknown unknowns are going to happen.

Philip Pape: 5:31

So the key is to create a plan that can adapt to both types of risks. And instead of a rigid and flexible plan which guess what? Hint, that's what diets are like the keto diet or vegetarianism or whatever it is rigid and inflexible we want to build a strategy that's more like a shock absorber, right? It can cushion the impact of the bumps of life and then just allow you to keep moving forward, like a really good suspension on a car, you know, not like a finely tuned sports car trying to go off road, right, but actually something that can handle all the bumps. So how do we actually do this? So I'm going to give you just a few practical steps here. The first one, of course, is we have to identify what those risks are and this is reflection, this is brainstorming Anything that could derail your plan.

Philip Pape: 6:15

Go through the list, take a piece of paper out and think about your life and, over the next six months, what could happen Work deadlines, family commitments, do you get sick on a regular basis, or your family or your child gets sick and it could make you sick. And it's not like you're trying to predict when exactly these are going to happen, although in some cases, like social events or the deadlines, you know when they're going to happen. And then you're basically leaving room for the things you know are going to happen. You're just not sure when the things you know you're going to happen and when they're happening, and then even some things that you may not have a clue they're going to happen, and then for each of those, you want to identify how likely it's to happen and how much it would impact your plan, because some things may not matter that much, right, like, okay, you have a work deadline. It creates stress, but if you know for sure you're going to schedule in your training in the morning and work doesn't start till later and it's not going to matter, then maybe it's not going to impact your plan as much. But it might impact your food plan, right, having having more stress or having a situation where you have to go into work more frequently or something. So for each one of these, you want to know is it how likely it is and how much will impact your plan, and then you can prioritize the ones that you want to focus on the most, and I would just keep it simple and literally just, you know, circle the top three that you want to focus on for this exercise.

Philip Pape: 7:36

Now step three develop strategies to deal with each risk. This is develop strategies to deal with each risk. This is contingency plans. These are what I've sometimes called if-then strategies. If you often miss workouts due to work, then have a 20-minute home workout ready to go as a backup. If a social event is going to come up for work let's say you get invited to a happy hour and you're going to go because it's good for business or whatever and it normally derails your nutrition then I'm going to eat a small protein-focused meal before I go out or I'm going to have a plan ready to go to choose what I eat and drink at any event. Right. So if, then, eat and drink at this at any event, right. So if then, if unexpected travel comes up, then I'm going to research nearby or the hotel gym in advance, or I'm going to pack my bands or my blood full restriction training cuffs for a in-room workout, right. So again, it's if this thing happens. I don't know when it's going to happen. I don't know how long it's going to be. I'm going to have a then strategy, a contingency plan for it.

Philip Pape: 8:47

The other thing that complements this, that supports this, is building in flexibility to your whole plan in general. By default right Now it depends on what we're talking about. So, for example, training, training sessions Instead of saying I'm absolutely going to work out five days a week, you can say I have a plan for a five day. You know five days of training. But because I know sometimes I'm not able to do that, I'm okay stretching out my week by a day or two and still getting in on my workouts. I just might have an extra day there or I might shift them back and forth, right. So either the number of training sessions can kind of spread out beyond that week or I know that I have flexibility in the days that I can train right. If you're only training three days a week, you probably have more flexibility to do that than, say, if your training program is five or six days. So that's some flexibility on the training side.

Philip Pape: 9:40

For your food, I love ranges, right Minimums and ranges for calorie macro targets. So again, it depends on what you're going for. But let's say you're in a fat loss plan, you have calorie and protein target. I would want to hit the minimum protein but then kind of get within 100 or 150 calories of the calorie target, either direction from fats or carbs. Right, like, create the amount of flexibility you need to know that it's sustainable.

Philip Pape: 10:08

Another flexibility is eating throughout the week, right, when you do meal prep and when you have quick options to go to in your pantry and you are smart about your grocery shopping ahead of time so that you have your fridge, your cabinets, your pantry filled up with multiple options. Then, if something throws you off during the week and you can't stick to your normal meal plan, your normal routine, even if you have prepped it, you'll at least have a second, third or fourth backup that you can go to and you're not just reaching for the candy jar or reaching for the vending machine, right, or just you're not sure what to do. So you stop in a grocery or you stop in a convenience store and you grab, um, you know a muffin, right. Or uh, you know calorie dense hot dog or something. So, building in flexibility, compliments, having the backup, uh, contingency plans.

Philip Pape: 10:58

And then, because you have all this flexibility built in, you always want to assess uh, is it working for you? Is one of these things not actually solving the problem and mitigating the risk? Let's say you are invited to a happy hour and you go and all of a sudden, the same thing happens, as always happens. You have the nachos, you have the three margaritas and you overconsume and before you know it, you've gone way past your calories for the week, despite having your risk management plan. Well, that plan obviously wasn't effective, so you just have to come up with a different one that's actually going to work. So that doesn't rely on you having too much discipline or willpower to do it.

Philip Pape: 11:42

And that iterative process is part of the flexibility of risk management and is key to, again, sustainability. And then, underlying all of this is, again, we are not trying to be perfect, we're not trying to have a perfect plan, nor are we trying to execute perfectly. We're trying to just make progress from day to day. Look at every challenge that trips us up as a lesson to adjust our plan rather than a reason to quit and we'll be fine. And so the power of this approach isn't just helping you stick to your plan. It's in transforming the approach, in the relationship and thinking like a risk manager, not seeing setbacks as failures, but really data points, opportunities to learn, to adapt, to improve the system.

Philip Pape: 12:25

Right, that vacation that used to derail your diet for weeks because, well, you know, I ate whatever I wanted on vacation and I can't get back to it now. I'm off track. I might as well just enjoy myself for a while. Now that is a chance to practice the flexible strategies, the flexible eating and nutrition strategies. That busy work period that would have meant skipping the gym. Now it's an opportunity to test out either the home workouts or the flexibility you built into your training days. And that is now taking the power back into you, an internal locus of control. You're not trapped now by some external rigid rule, some unrealistic expectation. You actually have power to navigate the unpredictable nature of life which is the default and make progress, and that is the key to sustainable long-term success.

Philip Pape: 13:18

So if we were to just recap this episode number one, a perfect plan will fail because it can't adapt to life. There's no such thing. Number two risk management principles are a way to create a flexible, resilient strategy, both contingency plans and building in flexibility, which then number three, allows you to make consistent progress even when life gets chaotic, and not just quote unquote, stick to your plan, which now is really a wide range of flexible options, but changing your approach to it in the first place, which will serve you well forever. So your goal is not to create a plan that worked perfectly in ideal conditions, because that doesn't exist. It's to create a system that keeps you moving forward no matter what life throws your way, and that's really it when it comes to risk management.

Philip Pape: 14:06

So if you found value in today's episode and you want to learn more about creating a flexible, sustainable approach to nutrition, I do have a guide that I think you're going to enjoy, called the Nutrition 101 Guide, and it's geared toward body composition with this flexible approach. Just go to witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in my show notes. Again, witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in my show notes and I'll send you the guide for free. It'll help you master that flexible dieting.

Philip Pape: 14:34

Whatever your goal fat loss, muscle building, improved health. It covers everything from calculating your ideal macros to optimizing your nutrition for your workouts, and it's a really good companion to today's episode, because today was a little bit more high level about the risk management in general, but then this helps you dig one level deeper with some practical tools for this resilient, adaptable strategy. Again, go to witsandweightscom, slash free or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember, in fitness and life it's not about avoiding obstacles, it's just being prepared to overcome them. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

4 Ways to Increase Your Metabolism by 500 to 1000 Calories per Day | Ep 236

Are you tired of cutting calories to stay lean? Are you wondering how some people eat more while staying fit?

Philip (@witsandweights)  shares simple, effective ways to help you burn an extra 500-1,000 calories daily—all through sustainable lifestyle tweaks. Learn how to fire up your metabolism, feel more energized, and efficiently work towards your fitness goals. Philip breaks down four key areas that increase calorie burn. He’ll guide you through small, realistic steps like adding more protein, moving more throughout the day, and building steady habits that make a big difference over time.

👥 To connect with other listeners who are applying these evidence-based approaches to their fitness journey, join our free Wits & Weights Facebook group here or search “Wits & Weights” on Facebook.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

5:23 Strength training for calorie burn
8:25 Impact of NEAT on Metabolism
10:37 Nutrition's role in metabolism
12:15 Daily lifestyle activity boost
14:34 Listener feedback on nutrition coaching
15:01 Recovering from metabolic adaptation
16:12 How sleep affects your metabolism
18:03 Sustainable strength training tips
19:27 Adding more steps easily
28:07 Outro

Episode resources:

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS – Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

Related episodes:

• 7 Surprising BMR Facts (Your Metabolism Isn't Broken)

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Increase Your Metabolism by 500 to 1000 Calories per Day

Want to boost your metabolism without endless cardio or extreme dieting? Let's break down exactly how to increase your daily calorie burn by 500-1000 calories through sustainable strategies that actually work.

The Four Key Components of a Higher Metabolism

1. Strength Training and Muscle Gain (100-150 calories)

Building 8-10 pounds of muscle over 6-12 months increases your resting metabolic rate by about 50 calories per day. But here's something most people miss - the adaptations in your heart and other organs from consistent training can contribute another 50-100 calories daily. Your body becomes more metabolically active overall.

2. Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT) (200-300 calories)

This is where we can make the biggest impact. By increasing your daily steps by 5,000-7,500 (about 30-60 minutes of walking spread throughout the day), you'll burn an extra 200-300 calories. This isn't intense exercise - it's just moving more through:

• Walking meetings

• Taking stairs

• Parking further away

• Standing desk work

• General movement throughout the day

3. Thermic Effect of Food (50-100 calories)

Optimizing your nutrition through higher protein intake and whole foods increases the calories burned during digestion. Protein requires 20-30% of its calories just for digestion, compared to 5-10% for carbs and 0-3% for fats. Focus on:

• 0.7-1g protein per pound of bodyweight

• Whole, minimally processed foods

• High-fiber foods that require more energy to digest

4. Active Lifestyle Enhancement (50-100 calories)

Light physical activity you actually enjoy:

• Playing with kids

• Gardening

• Recreational sports

• Yoga

• Quick movement breaks throughout the day

Bonus Strategy: Recovery From Chronic Dieting (100-200 calories)

If you've been in a prolonged calorie deficit (12+ weeks), your metabolism has likely adapted downward. Strategic reverse dieting or a building phase can add another 100-200 calories to your daily metabolism as your body adjusts to higher energy availability.

Implementation Strategy for Sustainable Results

Don't try to implement everything at once. Start with one area:

1. Begin strength training 3-4 times per week with compound movements

2. Track current steps and add 1,000 steps per week until reaching your target

3. Focus on hitting protein targets first, then gradually shift toward more whole foods

4. Find movement you genuinely enjoy and incorporate it regularly

The key is creating an upward spiral where each improvement enhances the others. When you build muscle, you burn more calories during all activities. When you increase NEAT, you improve cardiovascular fitness. When you optimize nutrition, you support better training performance and recovery.

The Bottom Line

Your metabolism isn't fixed - it's trainable. By implementing these strategies systematically, you can increase your daily calorie burn by 500-1000 calories while improving your overall health and fitness. This isn't about quick fixes or extreme measures. It's about building a metabolism that supports your goals long-term through sustainable lifestyle changes.

Ready to transform your metabolism? Join our free Wits & Weights Facebook Community where we discuss these strategies and support each other's success.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're tired of feeling like you need to eat less and less just to avoid gaining weight and you see others who seem to be able to eat way more food while staying lean, this episode is for you. Today, I'm breaking down exactly how to increase your daily metabolism to burn 500 to 1,000 more calories every day, without endless cardio or anything extreme. You'll discover the four key factors that actually determine your metabolic rate and how to optimize each one for maximum but sustainable results. Whether you're deep in a fat loss phase or trying to maintain while eating more food, this episode will give you a specific list of things to do to add up to a thousand more calories to your daily metabolism. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:58

I'm your host, philip Pape. Picture this You're eating what feels like barely any food. Maybe that's 1,100 or 1,500 calories a day, depending on your metabolism. You're doing cardio several times a week, your energy is in the gutter and still the scale the fat will budge. Meanwhile, you see others eating 2,000, 2,500, even 3,000 calories, while maintaining a lean physique. Well, what if I told you there's a way to systematically increase your metabolism by 500 to 1,000 calories per day, not through endless cardio or restrictive dieting, but through strategic approaches that work with your body to increase what we call energy flux. That's exactly what I'm giving you in today's episode. I'll show you exactly where these calories come from and how to implement each strategy in a way that actually works for your lifestyle without feeling deprived anymore. Now, if you want to connect with other listeners who are applying these same approaches to their fitness journey, go ahead and join our free Facebook group. It's called Wits and Weights. Just search the Wits and Weights community on Facebook or use the link in my show notes, and it's a great place to ask questions, to get support from like-minded people who, most of whom, listen to the show as well. Share your wins, your progress, but also focus on building your best physique through the smart, efficient systems we talk about, like increasing your energy flux to burn more calories, and then you can eat more food, have more energy and get the fat loss and muscle gain that you're going for.

Philip Pape: 2:31

Speaking of other listeners, I always promise that if you submit a review, I will give you a shout out and read it on the show Now, if you've submitted a review in the past and you're like I still haven't heard it written. I might have inadvertently missed it, and so please shoot me an email or a message on Instagram and let me know. But just to share some of what we've received lately Sarah P she recently wrote that the podcast is quote real, diverse, relevant. I appreciate so much the information on this podcast. Philip seems like a real person who I can identify with. He talks like someone I can understand, who has a ton of knowledge in a field I'm trying to dive into. I love the diversity of information for men and women, bodybuilders and soccer moms. The episodes are to the point and enjoyable to listen to. Thank you so much for all you do to help us on our individual journeys. Thank you so much.

Philip Pape: 3:23

I love reviews like that that show that you're really absorbing and listening to the information and you get something out of every episode. Sdjvdas said quote love this pod Seriously. So informational Can't get enough. The host is a class act too. I really appreciate. You know can always take a compliment, so thank you. And Jason Z27 wrote quote definitely recommend. I've been trying to work out more, but it's difficult to know if you're doing it right, figuring out how to diet, what muscle groups to work, how to find the right balance with cardio, etc. This podcast clears up a lot of those questions to make sure you get as much as you can out of your health plan. So so good. I love those reviews. Thank you for sending them in.

Philip Pape: 4:05

The reviews offer what's called social proof. They help others find the show and have some trust that it's what they're looking for. It makes a huge difference than in growing the community, and so if you're a listener, if you love the show, if you haven't left a review yet, hey, my birthday was two days ago before this episode came out. On the 26th of October was my birthday. I'm 44. I'll come out right out and say it I'm 44. And my goal is to get one year younger for every year of age when it comes to my physical fitness. But the best gift you can give me for my birthday is just a review of the show. That's all I ask for, please. I mean, you don't have to give me a gift at all. Just reach out and say hi, that would be great too. But leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I'll give you a shout out. I'd be very, very grateful. Now, one of the reviews said we get to the point, so I better live up to that.

Philip Pape: 4:50

Let's get into today's topic. Here is what we are covering today. First, I want to go over the exact breakdown of where extra calories come from. When we talk about metabolism in general, I want to give a refresher of the components of metabolism and then how you can increase your metabolism in a sustainable way by up to a thousand calories a day, how to implement these strategies sustainably and then a little bonus approach at the end for those who might have been dieting for a long time. So stick around for that, all right.

Philip Pape: 5:23

I want to start with the overall theme here of increasing your metabolism, and some of you might be skeptical rightly so. You're like hey, philip, 500 to 1,000 calories is insane. That could be like double my current metabolism, or not double, but a huge jump to what I'm currently burning every day. But stick with me here because I'm going to break down objectively, scientifically, exactly where these numbers come from and give you a menu of options and you can kind of put them together. You don't necessarily have to do all the things, but it gives you some ideas to get started and make them work for you.

Philip Pape: 5:56

So first is strength training All right if you're not already lifting weights. That is the biggest low-hanging fruit in existence for your physical fitness for the rest of your life. In so many ways, well beyond calorie burning, even though that's the context for today, it is huge for your health, for your bone density, for your insulin sensitivity, for your function, for living a long, amazing life and, like I mentioned earlier, potentially turning back the clock as you age. I spoke to someone recently on his podcast. It was called On the Brink, john Brink. He's 84 years old and he's the oldest natural competitive bodybuilder on the planet, and he didn't get started until his, I think, late 70s. Bruce and Jan on Instagram they're in their 70s and they're kicking butt in the gym, showing that you can be strong and functional and completely defy aging.

Philip Pape: 6:49

Okay, I'm getting off track, but I think it's important. So let's talk about specifically calories. If you can add muscle just that alone let's say eight to 10 pounds of muscle over the next six to 12 months, which is totally achievable for both men and women you're going to burn an extra at least 50 calories per day at rest, and we know that because research shows that you can burn up to 9 calories per pound of muscle tissue on your body just from the tissue itself, let alone all the corollary ways that your body burns calories when you have more muscle. And again you might be thinking well, that's only 50 calories, right? But there findings from research that I want to add on to that, that people miss in this equation, and I've talked about them recently.

Philip Pape: 7:35

The adaptations in your heart and other organs from consistent training, from being an athlete, which you are, if you're a lifter, can actually contribute another 50 to 100 calories a day. Now some people might question the number, but I've seen it often anecdotally, and there does seem to be research that backs this up, if you add it all up. So, in summary, what I'm saying is, if you add muscle tissue, if you train like an athlete, if you're active, your organs increase in size as well. Your BMR will increase from multiple sources. You're more active in general. You are lifting weights. That burns calories. You add it all up and we're talking an extra 100 to 150 calories. So that's our first 100 to 150 calories. Just go out and lift weights and that is going to massively unlock so many other things. All right.

Philip Pape: 8:25

Second is non-exercise activity thermogenesis, or NEAT, and it's important to give you a refresher on these, even if you've heard it a million times, because somebody might be listening and saying I don't even know what that is. What are you talking about? Neat is the components of your metabolism where we can make the biggest impact, because it is all the non-exercise movement, such as walking, such as parking farther from the store, doing your chores, doing yard work, fidgeting, unconscious movement, really everything other than deliberate training or exercise. And we've seen that NEAT can by far have the biggest swing in your metabolic rate. For example, by increasing your daily steps by about 5,000, which sounds like a lot, but most people are super sedentary and getting only three or four so five gets you up to eight, nine, maybe 10,000 steps Stretch goal would be 12,000, but let's say eight to 10. That's about an extra up to an hour of walking spread throughout your day, and walking can be spread all over the place in all different ways.

Philip Pape: 9:30

Just doing that is going to burn an extra 200 to 300 calories. Now this is independent of your job, of how active you are in general. We definitely have seen a widespread between people who are sedentary, people who have a modesty, active jobs and like manual laborers of up to something like don't quote me on it, but I want to say it's almost a 2000 calorie difference on the extreme ends. But even if you were to shrink that by down to a quarter, we're still talking two 300 calories, right, just from your lifestyle. But deliberately walking every day in some way, excessively to you in an enjoyable way, is going to burn an extra 200, 300 calories. Right, we're not talking about intense exercise, we're not talking about running, it's just moving more throughout your day, getting off your butt, pacing around the house, doing all the things. And the beautiful thing about this is that is really sustainable. Right, you're not killing yourself with high intensity interval workouts or specific cardio sessions. You know, hopping on the treadmill, unless it's just to go walk on a treadmill. Or what I like is a standup desk with under-desk treadmill if that's a possibility for you. So that's our next 200 to 300 calories.

Philip Pape: 10:37

The third way we're going to add calories is optimizing your nutrition a bit, and one component of your metabolic rate is called TEF, the thermic effect of food, and there are a lot of people in the evidence-based space that are like eh, you know the extra calories burned from that really isn't worth discussing. I tend to disagree, because maintaining a higher protein intake and by higher I mean 0.7 to 1 grams per pound of your body weight, which is almost or more than double what most people are getting to start, and if you're eating more whole foods, with fiber, for example, you're going to burn more calories just from processing the food. You know it could amount to an extra 50 to 100 calories a day based on that shift. All right, so again, I give you I'm giving you ranges because we can be conservative and say maybe it's 25 to 50, maybe it is up to 100, depending on where you started and where you went. If you're eating a lot of ultra processedprocessed foods now a lot of fast food, quote-unquote junk food, whatever you want to call it chances are your body is not having to work very hard to digest it. If you switch to a lot of protein and whole foods and fiber things you have to chew harder foods, things you have to digest you are going to burn a bunch more calories just through digesting and processing that food, because protein requires 20% to 30% of its calories just for digestion, compared to, say, 5 to 10% for carbs and 0 to 3% for fats. So there's another funny thing If you are from the low carb, high fat camp in the past and now you're eating a more balanced diet with much higher protein and then some higher carbs, both of those are going to contribute to this metabolic bonus, just for eating different foods. So that's pretty cool, all right.

Philip Pape: 12:15

The fourth method here is what I call just active lifestyle enhancements, like light physical activity that you actually enjoy. Now you might say, well, this is part of NEAT, isn't it? But with NEAT we talked about specifically adding in walks. In this case, while it is part of NEAT, it's thinking of everything you do in your life, your daily life, and being more active in general. So this could be gardening, playing with your kids, recreational sports, yoga I don't care what it is, I bet, unless you're the type of person that's always out hiking, that's always out playing sports, which a lot of us are not.

Philip Pape: 12:52

We're kind of I'm not going to say stuck with desk jobs, but you sit around all day. You're tired. At the end of the day you just veg out, right, and then maybe the weekend you do some fun activities here or there. But can you think of a strategy where you every day are active, doing something, and if you have kids for example, fathers, mothers out there I mean especially the dads out there if you're not playing with your kids almost every day in some way, take advantage of that. It's such a wonderful bonding opportunity, it's so great for them. You know, get away from the devices and all that, just have fun, especially quick five-minute snacks, what we call. What did Brian Borstein call cardio snacks or exercise snacks. For example, running up and down the stairs a few times I mean silly things like that you can add another 50 to 100 calories to your day.

Jenny: 13:48

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for offering his free 50-minute nutritional assessment. During that time he gave me really good tools on how I can further my health and fitness goals. He asked really great questions and stayed true to his offer of no sales pitch. I have since applied these things and gotten really close to my health goals and my weight goals, and now I'm able to flip over and work on my strength and my muscle conditioning using a lot of the things he offers in his podcasts, and I just am very grateful for his positive inspiration and encouragement for all of our health. Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape: 14:34

So, if we add it all up, strength training and the adaptations from strength training and the lifestyle of strength training add up to about 100 to 150 calories. Increased meat through walking is another 200 to 300 calories. Optimizing your nutrition, your protein, your fiber, whole foods another 50 to 100 calories. And having an active lifestyle 50 to 100 calories and that's maybe 400 to 600 calories per day. Right there, all right. Now here's the bonus strategy that can push this even higher.

Philip Pape: 15:01

For those who've been dieting for a long time and that's a lot of you If you've been in a prolonged calorie deficit and you may not even be in enough of a deficit to be losing weight anymore, you may just be below your set point for your current metabolic rate and just kind of under eating but not really losing weight. You could be in that situation. Your metabolism is probably adapted downward right. It's called metabolic adaptation and it's basically conserving resources because you're not eating enough. And if you can then recover out of that, if you could track your food, recover out of it, increase your calories to the point where you're now at your, you know, full, recovered, homeostatic maintenance calories, you don't have to use a reverse diet, right? You don't have to go into a building phase, although that can, in my opinion, you know, ramp it up even further. You can definitely add another, maybe 100 to 200 calories to your daily metabolism, and that's just like a starting point. Some of you may be more adapted than that. You know three, four, 500 calories, but if you've been dieting a lot, then 100 to 200 is a good estimate. If your thyroid has been slightly downregulated through being in a deficit, okay. So that brings our total potential increase to 500 to 800 calories per day.

Philip Pape: 16:12

And I would say there is one more thing that I totally forgot on my list, but it was what gets you to the thousand, and that is getting more and better quality sleep. Okay, so just improving your sleep would increase your metabolic rate, because a lack of sleep affects your hormones. It also affects things like visceral fat or visceral fat storage in the belly, but that's a separate topic. It downgrades your metabolic rate, downgrades your thyroid production, affects your cortisol, all the things, such that your body also conserves energy, and so getting more sleep is going to increase your metabolic rate. Notice that nowhere in that entire list that I mentioned cardio. In fact, for some of you, you're doing so much cardio that it's actually adding too much net stress to your body and that is actually causing you to burn fewer calories. You may be burning some calories from all the movements, but it is a small percentage of what you should be burning for that movement, because your body has adapted to compensate. So that gets you plenty of things to think about, of low-hanging fruit, where you may not be giving your body what it needs to fully thrive and be in this high energy flux state.

Philip Pape: 17:22

So how do we actually implement these in a way that's sustainable? All right, let's talk about strength training. Let's break it down Strength training if you can lift weights, if you can aim for three days a week to start and then eventually four or even five I like four or five for folks that are more in the intermediate to advanced phase of their training. Three days a week, full body, progressive loading with compound movements I'm talking squats, deadlifts, bench presses, rows the basics that build strength. Right, they build strength and by building strength they're going to build muscle as well. So don't think about it as two different concepts and you don't need anything fancy here, just consistent, progressive training that challenges you. That's lifting.

Philip Pape: 18:03

I've got tons of resources If you're like where do I start? How do I train? What program do I use? This is where you can jump on a call with me a 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment, and if you just want to talk training, I can get you started exactly where you need to go. You know, no charge. I don't charge for those calls. I also don't sell you on anything. I literally will suggest an app, I'll suggest a program, maybe even give you a guide or two that I have. If you're kind of newer to this and just send you on your way and if you're like, hey, I really love what you do and I need more support, that's when you'll reach back for more support. But I want to get you started. So reach out and you can use the link on my show notes to do that For neat.

Philip Pape: 18:38

For walking, first you have to know how many steps you're getting, so you should be tracking your current daily steps and almost any device now phone or wearable even very inexpensive wearables track steps just accurately enough. They're just fine. And if you can start this week and add a thousand steps a day this week, that's not very much at all. That's like a 10 minute walk, ideally after a meal. That's where I would place it if you have a choice, because that will help with blood sugar, insulin sensitivity, digestion and it just feels good Usually after you eat. It kind of helps settle down your stomach, gets the blood flowing and all that. But wherever you can add, it is what matters. So add a thousand steps this week and keep doing that each week until you consistently do it as a habit and reach your target, which I would aim for eight to 10,000, or, if you're bold, go for 12,000. All right, so this could be taking a 10-minute walk after meals, like I mentioned, or having walking meetings where you're pacing around on your Zoom calls, parking further away from stores, using the stairs.

Philip Pape: 19:42

When I go to any place with a parking lot. Now it's awesome because my goal is to park in the farthest spot I can possibly find, unless it's in like a massive Walmart or something where I have to walk. You know half a mile and there's a time constraint or something to my shopping. But you give yourself some time. I try to park far away. Guess what happens Nobody else is trying to get that spot. Your car is nice and safe. You get the steps. It's great, all right. So the key here is just making it feel effortless and natural and just part of what you do Not like.

Philip Pape: 20:06

Oh, I had to get a walk-in, or I feel like I'm forced to get a walk-in. All right, nutrition that's a whole separate topic that I cover many times on this podcast, but I would focus first on just hitting your protein target. Use a tracking app, and I'm going to, of course, suggest MacroFactor, because it's the only app that, once you track your food and weight, it can calculate your metabolism and if it knows your metabolism, it knows the targets it needs to give you for your calories and macros to get to whatever goal you have. But just start tracking, eat at maintenance and ensure that you're actually getting enough protein. People overestimate their intake big time. And then, after protein, I would shift toward more whole foods, with an emphasis on fiber, not being restrictive, but adding in the things that taste great, that satisfy your needs, that give you nutrition, that give you protein. We're talking lean meats, vegetables, fruits. I love fruit. If you can't think of what to eat for lunch and you haven't meal prepped, just think of a meat and a fruit, because to me that's super convenient. A meat maybe you've meal prepped it or maybe you've got some leftovers. If you don't, that's a good place to prep on the weekend, cook a whole casserole of chicken thighs, for example, and then fruit is usually just, you pull it right out of the fridge or right off the counter, the fridge or right off the counter. And that's why I suggest that as a very sustainable first step. And fruit people underestimate how nutritious it is. It's so tasty, it kind of covers your carbs and your fiber altogether. Sure, it has some calories, but it's so many fewer calories than you think given the volume, right, obviously, greens like broccoli are going to have almost no calories. But it's not all about calories, right, it's also about the fiber and the taste and you need some carbs and so on. So protein, then fiber, you know whole foods, and then you're still going to enjoy some of the foods you love anyway as part of that process. But now your body is going to be burning, you know, more like a furnace when it comes to digesting all of that food. And you're just optimizing your pattern slowly over time, all of that food, and you're just optimizing your pattern slowly over time. So that's for nutrition, for the active lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 22:13

Find something you really enjoy to do. Maybe it's throwing a frisbee with your kids, maybe it's doing some yard work. Let me tell you something my wife has taught me. Okay, I used to hate doing the lawn. We have a huge yard. Now it's like an acre and a half. We have a mowing tractor. I still, in the back of my head, think, oh, I have to mow the lawn. Now my wife loves it. She just loves being outside in general and doing anything outside, including yard work. She sometimes mows the lawn, so thank her for that. We have an equal opportunity household. I would say it's 50% of the time I mow the lawn, but she's taught me Now, granted, that's a lawn tractor.

Philip Pape: 22:42

So this is actually a terrible example. I just realized a lawn tractor. So this is actually a terrible example. I just realized. But after doing that, I'll go do some weed whacking, some cleanup of the weeds, you know anything to just use my hands.

Philip Pape: 22:57

Take pride in my house and I don't outsource any of that stuff. The only thing we outsource is plowing the driveway because it's like 300 feet long in the middle of winter in New England. I'm not going to do that when I've got to get to work, anyway. So I don't know if I'm like helping my case or hurting my case. Find a thing that you enjoy doing. Maybe you don't enjoy doing yard work, maybe you want to take a dance class, dance with the kids. Whatever, the goal is to move more without it feeling like exercise. Okay. So, hey guys, this is me being real. I'm not even going to edit any of that stuff out. Take with it what you will. All right. Now here's something that most people miss.

Philip Pape: 23:31

When it comes to enhancing your metabolism, it's not just about stacking up ways to burn calories. It's doing things that support your physical health, your function, your longevity, and allowing those things to then drive you to do the other things that also support that and create this compounding effect, not just a habit. Compounding effect like one thing leads to better outcomes over the long term. It's that one activity like lifting weights leads to wanting to move more, leads to wanting to eat better, leads to wanting to sleep more, and so on and so forth, and it starts to add up and create a compounding effect. I've mentioned the term upward spiraling from positive psychology. Once you do one positive thing, it leads to another, to another, to another, and they just start to stack on top of each other. Right?

Philip Pape: 24:21

So you think about, for example, when you build muscle, you're not just burning calories in the gym. You're also burning calories when you're at rest. You're also increasing your organ size. So that's even yet another way to think about the compounding effect is that there's a cascade even in your body. Your body's like okay, I see what you're doing here. You're active, you need to move heavy things, you need to load your body, I need to adapt. I as in like anthropomorphizing my own internal body's monologue. I need to optimize everything cognitively. You know the neural connections, the muscle tissue and the sarcomeres, the way I utilize nutrients and you become this like machine with a huge engine burning, burning lots of calories. And again, it's not just about that, but hey, take the bonus along for. And again, it's not just about that, but hey, take the bonus along for the ride for doing all these wonderful things that are great for you anyway.

Philip Pape: 25:13

Right, when you increase your neat, when you walk more, when you get up off the chair, you then improve your cardiovascular fitness. And, by the way, studies now have confirmed that the amount of cardio is more important than the type Meaning. If you just walk a lot and it's equivalent to running the same amount, you're pretty much going to get a similar cardiovascular improvement, with the exception of the optimal end of that. In other words, if you're trying to go at maximum VO2 and maximum conditioning and endurance sports, okay, you should probably add in training for those. But if you just want general fitness, that's like as good as it needs to be to thrive for the rest of your life and be sustainable. Walking can do it.

Philip Pape: 25:54

Believe it or not, now, many of us get into that. We're like okay, now what do I do? I'm going to throw on a rucksack, I'm going to go on an incline. Maybe I'm going to throw in some prowler pushes. Maybe I do want to do some sprinting, maybe I want to do this sport over here. And you start to get more athletic, anyway, hopefully.

Philip Pape: 26:08

Some of us, though don't Some of us just like to lift. We get off our butt, we walk around, we're just generally active. We do things outside, we do things with our hands, we go help somebody move into their new house and we're just a more active person. And then people are not having to take care of us when we're in our 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s In fact, we might be taking care of them because we can, because we're capable. So when you optimize all these things, other things improve when you optimize your nutrition. You improve your ability to train, to perform, to recover, and, yes, that includes potentially increasing your carbs. All right, I saved it for deep into the episode because then I know all the YouTube trolls will never hear it. All of these things create an upward spiral where each improvement enhances the other.

Philip Pape: 26:51

Now, the opposite of that would be crash diets, extreme exercise programs right, which are short, quick fixes, where you punish yourself, you berate yourself, you get a short-term result that you think is what you want and it ends up not being and it has no long-term impact whatsoever, makes you miserable and it trashes your mental state. That's not what we want. So the key to making all this work is sustainability. I think that is one of the most important terms that we use on this podcast and in this philosophy is getting it to work for you and it's part of your life. Don't try to implement everything at once right. Start with one thing. Maybe you increase your daily steps, maybe you start training right With a new training program and then, once that becomes ingrained, a habit, a system, you start to add other elements in right.

Philip Pape: 27:40

So not quick fixes, not extreme measures, but building and stacking a running, burning metabolism that also supports your goals long-term, and your body's incredibly adaptive. It's incredibly adaptive. So give it the stimulus, that positive stimulus that it needs. Give it to it consistently and it will respond and do the work for you. And then, guess what? You can eat more food. Hey, you're like what does this all mean? I can eat more food. Yes, absolutely All right.

Philip Pape: 28:07

So if today's episode resonated with you and you want to discuss these metabolism boosting strategies with other people who are implementing them, join our free Wits and Weights Facebook group super supportive community where we dive deeper into topics like this. We share our experiences. We help each other succeed. I do a bi-weekly live on fridays answering your questions. So much good stuff in there. Just search wits and weights on facebook or click the link in the show notes to join the group and I will approve you. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember your metabolism is dynamic and you can train it to work for you, not against you. Talk to you time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Builds More Muscle Using Less Weight (Nick Colosi) | Ep 235

Are you an experienced lifter looking for new ways to boost muscle growth, improve recovery, and stay injury-free? Have you heard about blood flow restriction (BFR) training but aren’t sure how it can fit into your routine?

Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Nick Colosi to break down how BFR can enhance muscle growth, speed up recovery, and take the strain off your joints—without sacrificing intensity. Nick explains the science behind BFR and shares real-world success stories from elite athletes like LeBron James and the USA Olympic weightlifting team, all of whom have used BFR to stay at the top of their game.

Nick Colosi, founder and president of Smart Tools, has a doctorate in chiropractic and extensive training in sports rehab and performance. Since 2014, Smart Tools has been at the forefront of developing innovative BFR devices used by elite athletes across professional sports, including the USA Olympic weightlifting team. Nick’s mission is to make BFR training accessible, safe, and effective for everyone, from fitness enthusiasts to pro athletes.

🧤 Get your own pair of safe, effective BFR cuffs at Smart Tools (anything you buy with this link supports the podcast) or here: https://www.smarttoolsplus.com/?sscid=91k8_q3zxr&

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:01 How BFR fits into a traditional lifting routine
4:25 Typical BFR workout structure
8:59 Substituting BFR into your workout split
11:45 Why lighter weights are essential for BFR success
14:25 Comparing BFR for arms vs. legs
20:55 Safety considerations and common mistakes
23:12 Using BFR for recovery and DOMS relief
29:19 Pro athlete success stories: LeBron and Olympic athletes
36:18 What Nick wished Philip had asked 
37:52 How to connect with Nick
38:24 Outro

Episode resources:

• Smart Tools (anything you buy with this link supports the podcast) - https://www.smarttoolsplus.com/?sscid=91k8_q3zxr&

How Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Builds More Muscle Using Less Weight

As a lifter, you’re always looking for ways to maximize muscle growth while staying injury-free. Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) training offers a new tool in your strength and hypertrophy toolbox. Whether you're dealing with joint pain, overuse injuries, or simply want to build muscle with less weight, BFR can help. In this post, I’ll break down how BFR works, how to implement it into your training, and why it’s gaining traction among elite athletes.

What is Blood Flow Restriction (BFR) Training?

BFR training involves using cuffs to restrict blood flow to a limb during exercise, allowing you to lift lighter weights while still getting the muscle growth benefits of heavy lifting. This technique works because restricting blood flow creates metabolic stress in the muscle, which mimics the effects of lifting heavier loads.

So, why does this matter? With BFR, you can stimulate muscle growth without the heavy weights that wear down your joints over time. This is huge for those of us who want to keep lifting for years without breaking down.

How to Incorporate BFR in Your Routine

Let’s say you’re already following a solid lifting routine with compounds like squats, deadlifts, and presses. How do you add BFR into the mix without overhauling everything?

Start with isolation exercises. BFR works great for exercises like bicep curls, tricep extensions, and leg extensions—movements that don’t require heavy weights to begin with. You’re still doing your regular lifts, but you’re swapping one or two isolation exercises for BFR.

Here’s an example:

• For arms: Add BFR to bicep curls at the end of your workout.

• For legs: Use BFR with lunges or leg extensions after your heavy lifts.

Use a 30-15-15-15 rep scheme:

1. Start with 30 reps on the first set, using about 30% of your one-rep max.

2. Take a 30-second break.

3. Complete 15 reps for each of the next three sets, with 30-second breaks in between.

By the end, your muscles should feel like they’ve been through a heavy workout, even though you’ve used significantly lighter weights. This is why elite athletes like LeBron James and Olympic weightlifters use BFR—it gives them the gains without the wear and tear.

Why Use BFR? Benefits for Lifters

Increased Hypertrophy with Less Weight
The main benefit of BFR is hypertrophy (muscle growth) while using less weight. If you’re someone who deals with joint pain or just wants to give your body a break from heavy loads, BFR lets you keep training hard without the risk of injury.

Faster Recovery
BFR also helps with recovery. Because you’re using lighter weights, you’re reducing the strain on your body. BFR helps reduce muscle soreness (DOMS), allowing you to train more frequently without burning out.

Maintain Muscle While Injured
Dealing with a nagging injury? BFR is an excellent tool for staying active while you recover. You can maintain or even build muscle without pushing through the pain of heavy lifting.

How Safe is BFR Training?

Like anything in the gym, safety comes first. BFR is generally safe when used correctly, but there are a few things to keep in mind:

• Hydration is key. Make sure you’re hydrated and have eaten before your session.

• Use proper equipment. Avoid cheap straps. Use validated BFR cuffs like the ones from Smart Tools.

• Stick to the recommended pressures. 50-60% for arms and 70-80% for legs.

• Don’t overdo it. 5-6 minutes per BFR exercise is plenty. You should want the cuffs off by the end.

How to Get Started with BFR

If you’re ready to give BFR a try, here’s a simple way to get started:

1. Choose one or two isolation exercises per workout.

2. Apply the BFR cuffs to your upper arms or legs, depending on the exercise.

3. Use lighter weights (around 30% of your 1RM) and follow the 30-15-15-15 rep scheme.

4. Be consistent. Like any training method, the benefits of BFR come with time and regular use.

You don’t need to overhaul your entire routine—just add BFR where it makes sense, especially on days when you want to focus on hypertrophy without taxing your joints.

Final Thoughts on BFR for Strength and Hypertrophy

BFR is not a magic bullet, but it’s a powerful tool for experienced lifters looking to add variety, improve recovery, and maximize muscle growth with less weight. If you’re dealing with joint pain, overtraining, or just want to try something new, BFR might be the game-changer you’re looking for. It’s like getting the best of both worlds—gains without the grind.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a lifter who's been training consistently, pushing heavy weights for your main lifts, but you're looking for ways to maximize your gains and enhance your recovery and maybe you've even heard about BFR or blood flow restriction training, but aren't sure how it fits into a serious lifting program then this episode's for you. My guest today, a leading expert in BFR, will show you how this technique can complement your heavy lifting and unlock new avenues for muscle growth. Bfr might even accelerate recovery, help with rehab and add an extra dimension to your isolation work, without overtaxing your central nervous system or risking overuse injuries. We're going to show you how to intelligently incorporate BFR to enhance your training. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 0:54

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I'm excited to get into blood flow restriction, or BFR training with Nick Colosi, founder and president of Smart Tools. Nick has a doctorate of chiropractic with extensive postgraduate training in sports rehab and performance. He founded Smart Tools in 2014 to innovate on products for soft tissue mobilization and later BFR training. These tools have been adopted by elite athletes across professional and collegiate sports, including LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers and I've used personally their Smart Cuffs myself for several years. Smart Tools is also the official BFR partner for the USA Olympic weightlifting team, now in full disclosure. After agreeing to have Nick on the show, smart Tools sent me a pair of the latest Smart Cuffs 4.0 to try out, and, of course, I've used their 3.0 for a long time, so that was a no-brainer. I tried them out and maybe we'll have a chance to talk about them during our conversation Today. You're going to learn from Nick how BFR can enhance muscle growth, accelerate recovery and complement your traditional lifting routine.

Philip Pape: 1:57

Nick, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Philip, appreciate it All right, man. So let's just jump in with a scenario that many of our listeners can relate to, and this is a lifter who has solid experience already with a traditional type program. You know they're doing the compound lifts, squats, deadlifts. They might be using bench presses or barbells or machines and they want to add some more volume, maybe get some more hypertrophy, they want to get a pump, or maybe they are dealing with overtraining or recovery issues. Stress things like that. How can they use blood flow restriction to complement their lifting in the right way?

Nick Colosi: 2:33

Yeah, I mean it's a common question we get from our non-rehab customers or non-athlete customers, just general fitness. How do I use this just for my general fitness? How do I program it? It usually starts with let's define BFR Like hey, bfr blood flow restriction training we're restricting blood flow to the limb and exercising under a very light load. We're trying to mimic heavier loads. So we're going to exercise that maybe 30% of your one rep max and try to mimic 70 to 80% of your one rep max.

Nick Colosi: 3:07

And there's a lot of research behind that. And when you show people research, they're very shocked to know that there's this much research behind this. They're like, man, there's no way that works and there is there's a lot of research behind it. So, getting that out of the way and kind of saying, hey, this is very safe, this is very effective behind it. So getting that out of the way and kind of saying, hey, this is very safe, this is very effective, they got the cuffs, they got them on. They're finding their personalized their pressure, because that's very important. Finding limb occlusion pressure, or otherwise known as personal pressure, is vitally important to all that we do, as far as all of our programming, because it allows you to scale up and scale down as far as increasing pressure, decreasing weight or increasing weight and decreasing pressure depending on where you are in your training.

Nick Colosi: 3:49

So a typical prescription for back-of-letter terms for training is using it three to four times a week per muscle group. You want to isolate that muscle. So say like, hey, it's your bicep day. Maybe you have two or three bicep exercises you want to pick. You have two or three bicep exercises. You want to pick one of those exercises and do a BFR session with that one exercise. And a typical BFR session would be 30 reps for your first set and take a 30 second to a minute break and then 15 reps and then another 30 second to a minute break and then do another 15. And you kind of keep doing that until you get you don't want to go to like you know full exhaustion, but you want to get to like volitional failure. Right, you want to get to about where you're like okay, I got maybe one or two reps in me, save it in the tank.

Philip Pape: 4:33

You'll know where it is, because it's the point. You don't want to continue.

Nick Colosi: 4:37

Yeah, exactly, Typically it's around the five minute mark. Typically, if the load and pressure is correct, and by correct meaning, you want that thing off by five or six minutes. It's not a comfortable thing, it's not a spa treatment. It's like oh, this is going to be like a Normatec or something like that. It's like flush the systems. It's not that. However, it's highly effective at what it does.

Nick Colosi: 5:00

So if your goal is to increase strength and increase hypertrophy and decrease the load on the joints, BFR is a great, great accessory work to augment, you know, heavier lifting days. You want to maybe take a little lighter, because I see it a lot, especially at my age. You know I'm pushing 40 and you know, and I used to do a lot of lifting when I was younger and you see, a lot of people are like, yeah, my joints aren't what they were when I was 21. I can't lift as heavy as I did and as often as I did when I was younger, and so BFR is a great plugin for that. I mean, that's just one example, but it's a great example, right? I have people up to 85 years old using these things. I mean it's crazy, because they're just like I'm getting some great results and lifting these light loads.

Philip Pape: 5:46

Yeah, and I feel like it's still this secret in the community. A lot of people don't know about it still and they're like what the heck is that? I don't remember how I came across it years ago because I used to use the just cheap straps that you would just strap together and, oh man, you could screw that up easily. And then I came across, you guys, because I was looking into different products but I did find that I'm north of 40. So and I didn't get started to this until I was in my late thirties anyway.

Philip Pape: 6:13

But even now I deal with, you know, low back fatigue or shoulder fatigue or whatever. I've had a couple of surgeries and even just last week I was using the cuffs because I was having some agitation with my shoulder and I said you know, I want to just go higher rep on this, really get that close to failure without the load, and it's a great use case to fit into a lot of different populations. One of the questions people have is how does it truly mimic the 80 or 90% of one RM when you're not literally loading your body with that weight?

Nick Colosi: 6:47

Yeah, I mean, there's been so much research over the last decade and everybody kind of says something a little bit different. For a while it was metabolic stress, right, or tricking the brain, or maybe neurological, or it's just strictly mechanical loading. You're just doing that many reps.

Philip Pape: 7:02

Yeah, effective reps, yep, yep.

Nick Colosi: 7:04

Yeah, I mean, it really is about building up lactate, you know, not lactic acid.

Philip Pape: 7:08

Most people don't care, but since we're on a various science, no, let's do it because lactic acid people think of as a byproduct of hypertrophy. You're talking about lactate, so yeah, let's do that.

Nick Colosi: 7:23

Yeah, so I mean restricting oxygen-rich blood to the muscle and you're doing a lot of reps, about 50 to 75, depending on what pressure you have the cuff at, whether it be 30%, 40%, 50%, lop or 80%, so that really depends. So that's kind of what we know now is that there's that lactate buildup in the muscle restricting oxygen to the muscle, because what BFR is doing is it's restricting oxygenate buildup in the muscle, restricting oxygen to the muscle, because what BFR is doing is it's restricting oxygen-rich blood into the muscle but it's blocking those waste products out. Basically, imagine if you're doing like a high rep set of like 30 or 40 or 50. So something ridiculous, or like a HIIT training. Basically, you're going to feel exhausted. You kind of get that feeling with BFR but you get it very quickly and at very low loads. So it's used very commonly in the rehab setting for obvious reasons low load, you get recover faster.

Nick Colosi: 8:15

It's used in mainly for professional reasons, like for like athletes. It's used mainly for in-season training to deload joints, to maintain strength and hypertrophy. But you're deloading the joints NFL guys pretty much that's what they're doing now because their bodies are taking beating. Or what are we on now? Week three, going into week three. They're just starting to get beat up pretty good, so they're using it that way. Our NBA guys they use it mainly for recovery after games, but that's the pro athletes and the general athletes. They use it at all three levels. They use it during their regular training, they use it for recovery, for flushing, so there's a lot of different ways to use it. It's not just for isolation. There's a lot of different ways you can do BF.

Philip Pape: 8:59

Yeah. So that's the perfect segue, right? Because someone's thinking okay, let's say I'm on a four-day split very typical maybe upper-lower push-pull leg type split where they've got some compound lifts, some accessories and then some isolation. I mean you kind of alluded to earlier. You know a few days a week, a few different muscle groups, but you know you don't want to do all BFR and I'll tell you like there's value. And once you've done BFR you realize like sets of three to five aren't so bad sometimes and having variety in there is helpful, right? Because even with normal isolation work on a cable you might be up in the 15, 20 range for some of those. So give it to us Like what's a typical. You're going to substitute this for this or add this in with BFR.

Nick Colosi: 9:37

Yeah, I mean, kind of like I was saying before, you would substitute it. It's good to pick one exercise and substitute that as a BFR exercise. So, like biceps is just an easy example. You know, if you're doing bicep curls there's a thousand other bicep exercises you're doing, but you just pick one and then you do that rep and set scheme with BFR. That would probably be a good recommendation.

Nick Colosi: 10:02

If you're doing it for training and not for rehab and you have no other contraindications, that's also very important, making sure that you're clear to do BFR, because there are contraindications. Doing BFR like with anything I mean like with regular strength training there's contraindications. You want to be clear by a physician, but 50% LOP for the arm, 80%, 70% for the leg that is kind of where the sweet spot is now as far as LOP goes. And then you can play around with those pressures, kind of like I was saying before. You want to increase the pressure, decrease the load. So yeah, I mean that would be the typical. You know, if you're doing a push pull, I mean obviously the pulling muscles. You know bicep, you know if you're pushing muscles, tricep, you know that would be on your push days. You want to work your triceps and shoulders, you know for your push. And it's not just a distal muscle effect, it's also proximal. You're still going to get some shoulder activity.

Philip Pape: 10:48

Yeah, let's go on that. So, like, does that extend further down to, like, the pec area for bench presses, or is that a little bit less? Yeah?

Nick Colosi: 10:55

there was one research study that looked at that.

Philip Pape: 11:02

There is. There is some benefit to using it for chest exercises, for pec major, pec minor.

Nick Colosi: 11:04

Yeah, because for those listening, we're putting these in our upper arm or our upper leg and that's it right yeah, regardless of the exercise you're doing, it's always going to go on the upper arm, between your bicep and deltoid, and on the upper leg as far up on the hip as you can because you see incorrect use of this stuff on youtube with like upper calf and some other spots.

Nick Colosi: 11:20

Yeah, it's all the same plumbing and that's what you know, that's what we say, that's what Dr Nicholas Rolnick in New York says it's all the same plumbing, right? So there's no reason. You're only increasing the chances of having a nerve-related issue if you have it that far down because it's more superficial. So we do recommend it to put on the upper leg because it's thicker. Nerves are not as superficial. You'll have less complications, yeah, cool.

Philip Pape: 11:44

So you mentioned the arm. Definitely like biceps and tricep work for anybody listening, if you want, like a massive pump and just everything popping out. I mean not that that's the end goal, but it's a nice short-term reward when you do this, yeah yeah 30, 15, 15, 15. Like, that's like the protocol typically and start way lighter than you think with the load. Trust me, and start way later. Yeah, yeah.

Nick Colosi: 12:07

That's so you know like you need an ego check, right? Because you're like, ah, I can. You know I can do a 50 pound dumbbell curls, no problem, put the BFR cups on. Then you get about maybe five or six reps in. You're like, wow, this was a bad decision.

Philip Pape: 12:20

Yeah, yeah, it resets you for the next time You're like okay, now I get it, I get it. Okay, so limit collusion pressure. Just for folks to know, that's the amount of pressure that you put on the limb, and there's different ways to gauge that. Right, like you guys, your equipment does it automatically with some advanced sensors. I'd be curious to know how that happens, cause I know you've evolved the technology as well. Yeah.

Nick Colosi: 12:40

Yeah, I mean we first started we really weren't finding LLP at all and we were just kind of saying, hey, inflate it to a pressure between 100 and 200. And then once you're at maybe at a 7 out of 10, you're good to go Get out there and give it your all. And then, as things went on, it's like, okay, that's probably not the safest way to do it. It's just because that's highly, highly subjective. So when we came out with our Gen 2 model, we started using a handheld Doppler and that's great. You're finding limb occlusion pressure. You're finding that personalized pressure.

Nick Colosi: 13:12

For that user it's not the most easiest thing to do, especially on yourself. To this day I still can't find it on my foot from my lower extremity, can't do it. So it's great for the clinic because you need two people, but for the regular gym goer, they're never going to do that. We wanted the solutions for both. You know, ease of use in the clinic, but also ease of use for patients, athletes and general fitness. You know enthusiasts, as we like to call them, because usually you know people usually using this product are the ones that are very serious about their fitness. It's not going to be somebody that's like, yeah, I work out once a week and do some BFR. That's not the person. The person that's using BFR is really into fitness and know what they're doing.

Nick Colosi: 13:48

They're listening to this podcast, man, they are listening to this podcast, not pandering, I swear, but yeah. So the Gen 3 electronic pressure sensors built in both Gen 3 and Gen 4 products that we sell now they have the pressure sensor built into it with algorithms that control that sensor, and we're actually only one of two products to be validated. We're actually validated for LOP accuracy by Mayo Clinic, so we take great pride in that, because a lot of products out there say they do that, but they actually either failed their validation test or never been validated, probably because it's not accurate. So it's easy to say that, but once you have that peer-reviewed research backing you up on what you're saying, we take great pride.

Philip Pape: 14:25

Yeah, and again for the listener who has never done this before, it feels like a blood pressure cuff basically, and I know in your version three so I had the three and now I have the four it was you had to plug it into a unit and then that would pump up the unit and I think it was like a multi-chamber system and now it's maybe a single chamber bladder or something like that. Yeah, you had a multi-chambered system. Very briefly, Okay, I mean that was probably like the first six weeks.

Nick Colosi: 14:49

That was our Gen 1. You can't find LOP, oh, okay, yeah, so if it's a multi-chamber bladder system, you can't find LOP, and we moved on. We moved on to our Gen 2 units and that was a single chamber bladder system. That was like in 2018. And we've used single bladder chamber systems ever since.

Philip Pape: 15:07

Okay, yeah, and you said the upper arm maybe 50%, I think. I recall in the app you can go up to 60% on the arm and you implied more than that for the leg right.

Nick Colosi: 15:18

Correct, yeah, so you can do for the arm anywhere between 30 and 60 and then for the leg right. Correct, yeah, so you can do for the arm anywhere between 30 and 60 and then for the leg anywhere between 40 and 90.

Philip Pape: 15:26

Yeah, man, and I personally find the leg more uncomfortable than the arm, you know, probably just because it's just so massive, but others may have a different experience. For me it just feels like, wow, that's tight, even when it's not up there. But then when you start doing some, let's say, front squats, I mean, man, talk about a totally different experience, like what's your favorite leg movement or two with the cuffs? Probably lunges, which is not a favorite without the cuffs for a lot of people.

Nick Colosi: 15:52

I know right, yeah, Bulgarian split squats. I mean I hate those. I do them, but I hate them with BFR. It's like a next level. Hate Like it is.

Philip Pape: 16:04

Do you do them loaded, in that you still do them loaded, or can you do them almost body weight? In that case, I haven't done BFR ball bearings because yeah, yeah, yeah, but lunges like walking lunges.

Nick Colosi: 16:10

Yeah, walking lunges. Yeah, yeah, walking lunges.

Philip Pape: 16:12

Because walking lunges. Well, I mean you could throw a barbell on your back if you be pretty brutal, right, typically body weight. I'll do body weight.

Nick Colosi: 16:17

Yeah, nothing crazy, yeah cool, I'll also just walk with them too for like 20 minutes or 30 minutes.

Philip Pape: 16:26

Just do some aerobic stuff, that's awesome because you know, and I'm sure you come across this misconception and you mentioned already, like oh, bfr, lighter weight Sounds so much easier until you realize squeezing your limb and doing tons of reps of something is not. It's a different hard, it's a different form of hard. But for something like that where you're doing a leg day and you're doing accessories for hypertrophy, like quad war, split stuff, maybe step ups Some of those people don't really like as much anyway with load, and I could see this being a selling point and I'm selling myself on it Like, yeah, do the walking lunges, just throw in the cuffs and just walk. So it's convenient and you're still getting this nice workout.

Nick Colosi: 17:02

Yep, yeah, I think it's a lot of our. I mean, I do it, but anybody can do it. A lot of our older customers do it to boost their aerobic capacity. You don't want to go on a 16 mile bike ride with them or anything like that, but like a 20, 30 minute decently brisk walk with cuffs more than enough. We don't recommend doing all four cuffs at one time. That's one thing that I just absolutely detest when I see that on social media. Because you kind of need to do that. If you have a multi-chamber bladder cuff, you need that because it's not going to give you that stress to the muscle. You need to do four cuffs at one time all limbs but the single chamber bladder system like ours, not only don't need to do that, it's recommended not to do that because it's not safe at all. Got it Good to know not safe.

Philip Pape: 17:51

Just two cuffs. If you need to challenge yourself, throw on a rucksack or something.

Nick Colosi: 17:55

Yeah, exactly Throw on a rucksack if you need to challenge yourself.

Philip Pape: 17:58

I like that man. Yeah, I forgot about that trick, though, just walking with the cuffs. I don't know, I haven't read through all the literature that comes with the new smart cuffs, but I assume there's some resources you have that kind of give people these ideas.

Nick Colosi: 18:10

Yeah, I mean you can simply. I mean, if you want to make it easy, just put it on. You know, starting off, just do like 50% LLP and put it on your legs, pump it up to 50% LLP and just walk for 20 minutes and then, if you get tired, just deflate them. Just deflate them. And yeah, I mean, safety is number one. Safety is the most important thing. We just don't want people abusing it and then potentially injuring themselves. We have a lot of self protections in the app and also the product, but you only can do so much.

Philip Pape: 18:41

Nothing in the show constitutes also the product, but you only can do so much. Nothing in the show constitutes medical advice.

Allan: 18:50

Please seek consultation with your doctor before starting VFR training. Hi, my name is Alan and I just want to give a shout out to Philip, pape of Wits and Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well-being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching, support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, philip Piper is the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, philip.

Philip Pape: 19:43

Are there scenarios where BFR is actually more effective? And I'm thinking of training specifically, not necessarily rehab, but I don't know how much research studies you guys have done on that, maybe even the cardio that you just mentioned but from a training perspective, would you say BFR is superior to X, for I mean we always tell people, if you can lift heavy, lift heavy, because there's a huge neurological component to that that you're just not going to get with lighter loads.

Nick Colosi: 20:09

And we never tell people that this is going to replace heavy lifting. That's also not true. We always tell people this is a accessory work, this is to augment your heavier lifts. You're going to improve your heavier lifts by integrating BFR into your training. So we're not saying this is going to replace it. It is a nice adjunct to it. It's a nice accessory work. It's nice to help prevent injury and recover from injury. If you got a nagging shoulder like my shoulder is always pain. So like if you got a nagging shoulder, nagging elbow, you know you tweak something, do some BFR for the week, you know, and just take it lighter and let those tendons recover. You know I also noticed my tendons don't recover as fast as they used to. You know, you know when I was 21,. Right, you can go out drinking and then you know not to worry about golfer's elbow, but it's, yeah. So that's where it really is highly effective.

Philip Pape: 20:58

That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, no, as an accessory, and the things we mentioned before. What about? And then travel comes to mind. Actually, we're going to a family vacation next weekend. I would never ask my wife like to let me go to a gym while we're on a family vacation, but I could bring my little you know case of BFR cuffs and do stuff in the room. Gives even more options than just like bands or TRX or something no-transcript.

Nick Colosi: 21:50

Active lifestyle. Nowadays they're requesting for better equipment.

Philip Pape: 21:55

Until you stay in an Airbnb. You see, I love bringing guests like you on, because then it's selfishly. I'm like, okay, here's all the ideas for this, because you could do pushups, you could do all sorts of body weight things, and now you're getting it up into the quasi or mimic of a loaded regime of that movement, which is awesome. So let's just tie up on the safety thing, since you've alluded to it a couple of times. You mentioned the pressure which can be controlled if you have good equipment. You mentioned not doing four limbs at once. You mentioned not going too long with these. On Any other key things people need to be aware of and stupid things that people have done that they shouldn't.

Nick Colosi: 22:31

Yeah, I mean make sure you're hydrated. Make sure you're hydrated and make sure you've eaten something that day. Don't go in, don't try doing it fast. It's probably not the greatest idea If you have any blood disorders or anything like that. There's a significant amount of contraindications Nothing major, though, like pretty much. If you're cleared to do strength training, you can do BFR. So there's really not, like you know, special contraindications for BFR that you wouldn't really have for regular strength training. I mean, maybe cancer, that's about it. Pregnancy, although that one's that's a hot topic.

Philip Pape: 23:04

It always is, even with lifting.

Nick Colosi: 23:05

We always say pregnancy but we'd have. There's no research to say that it's hard with pregnancy. It's just play it safe.

Philip Pape: 23:12

And because there's no research to say that it's effective with pregnancies. Right, exactly, all right, so that's good. Let's talk about recovery, then. What are, what are some ways people might think of using BFR for recovery? You you already mentioned a couple, like one being if your joints are acting up instead of doing your normal training session, put this in there. What I'd be concerned about is people starting doing more volume than their body can handle and actually backfiring, you know, because they're like adding this into what they're already doing. So what are some good ways to think of it that way?

Nick Colosi: 23:40

Yeah, I mean from a recovery standpoint. I mean IPC comes to mind ischemic preconditioning. We know that's on our 3.0 Pro model. You can do it with a 4.0 model, although with new updates we're going to make it a lot more automated. So IPC stands for ischemic preconditioning, aka recovery mode. Basically what it does, it will inflate to a pressure. Usually it's about 80 to 100% LOP, so almost full occlusion.

Nick Colosi: 24:10

It's entirely passive, Okay. So like I remember one person was like yeah, I put IPC and I started exercising. I was like why did you do that? So like it was incredibly painful. I was like, yeah, no shit. Like it's not meant to be active, it's definitely passive. So like, like, don't do that. Like nowhere in our user manual says that. But anyways, we said entirely passive. So you just sit there. It's like a norm attack, right. So you just sit there, watch tv, do whatever. It will inflate and it will hold that for five minutes and after five minutes it will deflate. And then it will deflate and stay deflated for three minutes and then it will five minutes on again. So five minutes on, three minutes off. You can do that three times and then that's it.

Nick Colosi: 24:46

That's's the recovery period and the research is relatively mixed up. It's not a slam dunk, not a home run. That just does everything that some research studies says it. It increases VO2 max one to 2%. So for the average person, is that really that big of a deal? Yeah, kind of. For the pro athlete, that's everything right. One to 2%, that's huge. But it does reduce DOMS. It does improve your recovery for the next day. So if you had a hard workout, do a recovery mode for 10, 15 minutes when you get home, after you shower or whatever, and just sitting on the couch great way to just recover.

Nick Colosi: 25:18

You can do that on arm or legs. Arms are a little bit more painful, so you got to be a little bit more painful. So you got to be a little bit more mindful. Like, would I go 100% LLP on the arms? For LLP, Probably not. I'd probably go more like 80%. It's funny, the research is really mixed. So I keep saying 80% or 100% because there's been studies that have shown that both are effective. For IPC it's not just 100% LLP anymore, it's, you know, could be 80%. And for the arm, you know you got the neurovascular bundle 80%. And for the arm, you got the neurovascular bundle. It's pretty superficial. So you want to be mindful of that. So numbness and tingling is a lot easier to get to occur on your arm than it is on your leg. So 80% LLP for a recovery session for the arm it's usually what I do. But yeah, I mean, that's how it's really used for recovery. Besides for your active recovery days or your light lift days, Besides that kind of what we already touched on already. That's how it's usually commonly used.

Philip Pape: 26:10

Yeah, that's a really good one. I wasn't aware of that recovery mode. I think that's awesome because that is super common for especially like a really heavy low back workout or a leg day, to just have that bit of DOMS. And I'm going to try that out and, you know, let people know how it goes. You said it even slightly increases VO2 max. You said one or 2%. So it's something which I want to pull on that thread because earlier you also mentioned the walking with it and whatnot. What does this science show if it's used kind of on a regular basis as a conditioning tool, what you potentially could get out of it?

Nick Colosi: 26:41

Yeah, you're just stressing the body. You're just stressing the body to a greater degree in a very short amount of time. So that's pretty much the theory about how it's going to increase that VO2 max Research. Again, sometimes you can make it say what you want to say, Sure.

Philip Pape: 26:55

I appreciate there's nuance. Yeah, there's.

Nick Colosi: 26:57

There's nuance, right, and there's a lot of there's just mixed results on it. So the theory behind it really isn't all there or, as we don't really know for sure how it's doing it, and that's kind of what we have to live with right now. We know it's safe to do. We definitely know it's safe to do because I mean, it's funny, as you talk, to like orthos, right, and they're recommending BFR for their patients and the patients would be like, oh, that sounds dangerous and the ortho is like I just had you on this. I'm in surgery in the OR, restricted fully for two hours, you're okay for five minutes. They just find it silly and comical and you're not even a full occlusion, you're at percentage.

Philip Pape: 27:35

Yeah, no, no. But some people do have that instant reaction when they don't know, and even listening to the show and the curiosity they're like let's step back. Are you guys talking about just completely cutting off all blood flow? You know, and it's not that there is a safety element, you have to be aware and do it properly. There is some tolerance, like let's just admit it.

Nick Colosi: 27:54

Yeah, back to the safety point. Yeah, that's why we do it that way. That's why we do personalized pressure, because we're almost guaranteeing not almost, we are guaranteeing that you're not going to exercise at full solution, as opposed to you just taking a wrist strap and just wrapping it and you see that right. You see those BFR straps on Amazon the 20 bucks. It's like cool, if you want to do it, go for it. Me first, I would never do that. I feel like it's very unsafe, easy to occlude and there's just a lot of drawbacks.

Nick Colosi: 28:29

But yeah, that's how it started, right, arnold was doing that back in the 60s and 70s. Right, he was back, he was taking I don't even know what the hell he was using. It was like a towel or something. He was just wrapping his arms and he was chasing the pump, right, and that's Arnold works for him. But we've evolved a little bit. The tech's evolved. We're not blind to the fact that people use wrist straps or BFR straps or whatever, because some people yeah, we understand it's a higher price point for our products, the digital, electronic BFR products, we understand.

Philip Pape: 28:52

Yeah, no, and I've seen the evolution over the years as well. I did used to have straps like that that had the little clip, and it was like the difference from one limb to another and one session to another. It was so big you were just wondering if you were getting the right. You don't want to tighten it too much because you're like, oh man, turning purple, what's going on?

Nick Colosi: 29:07

We're not good. I mean purple. It's a yeah, that's a relatively once you're exercising, relatively normal reaction. But if you're purple before you start exercising, probably over tightened in the pit.

Philip Pape: 29:19

Exactly, man, exactly All right. So I know you've worked with athletes. I know you have this partnership with the Olympic weightlifting team. People want to hear some cool stories. I know you talked about things on other podcasts, but you work with LeBron James. I used to be a Miami Heat fan, by the way, and it was a big. It was sad when he went to the Cavs from our perspective. Hey, you stole from us in the beginning. I mean yeah, no, I mean that's what I mean yeah, yeah, yeah, it went both ways. Exactly. I was actually in Florida when he did the announcement and I hadn't been living there in years, but that was funny. So either him or you know we just had the Olympics, so maybe that's a super relevant what you guys have been doing there outfitting them with the cuffs.

Nick Colosi: 29:56

Yeah, actually, lebron, I live in Cleveland, by the way. Cool, I figured that. Yeah, Okay, that makes sense. Around the same time, yeah, I played LeBron's high school team, akron, in Akron. Yeah, in Akron. Yeah, yeah, he lives in Bath, right outside. But yeah, no, he uses a lot for recovery, so like on the plane after games. He uses a little bit in off-season training, but mainly for recovery purposes, like a lot of the other NBA guys do.

Nick Colosi: 30:20

As far as our you know, usa USA Weightlifting was interesting. They actually were using our product, unbeknownst to me, I have no idea. Sometimes it's amazing people that will email you and be like, hey, we're using your product. I'm like, I had no idea you're using our product, no clue. So, usa Weightlifting they've been using our product now for about three or four years and they're like we love the BFR product, we've used others.

Nick Colosi: 30:45

Our athletes love your product. Would you be able to sponsor us for the upcoming Olympics? I'm like, yeah for sure, whatever you need. So we started working closer with them about a year and a half ago as far as protocols and things like that. Hampton Morris, who won the bronze, he's been using our product now for quite a while, even before the partnership and he used a lot for recovery. He used a lot mostly exclusively for recovery, and he's just like I just love the way I feel the next day or immediately after doing the recovery modes for my lips. So, and he won bronze, so that was pretty cool. I think he was a male weightlifter to win a medal since 84.

Philip Pape: 31:18

Yeah, I know it's crazy. We are not dominant in that sport, so that's pretty cool to be tied to that yeah.

Nick Colosi: 31:23

Yeah, and he's young, he's just a kid, he's like 20 years old, so that was really cool. So, yeah, I mean they've been using a lot and, being as portable as it is, it was really nice. They can take a Harris, they can have it in the village and take it everywhere they want.

Philip Pape: 31:37

So he was using it like after every training session. I'm just curious, like the protocol there.

Nick Colosi: 31:42

Yeah, he would take it. He wasn't using it every night, but he was using it pretty frequently. He was probably doing it maybe three or four days a week for recovery purposes. Yeah, some pretty cool stories. That was a really cool story. It's always good when you don't know that they're using it and they love it. Or you see it on social media with somebody and you're like I had no idea they got it. I don't know if I can mention his name, but he's a head of a. I don't know if I can mention his name, but he's a head of a major studio like NBC, cbs, abc, and he was using the product. I was like that's really cool. And he's like, hey, let's jump on a call and go over. I'm like don't you have anything? They're like I'm sure you have better. You know, like to waste your time on me. Like you know that was really cool, like awesome guy devoting time. You know, for this was really cool.

Philip Pape: 32:25

Yeah, and for his physical health too, you know so.

Nick Colosi: 32:28

Yeah, You'd be surprised who orders off the website that you know, because a lot of, like athletes or movie stars, they want just free products, sometimes Right, and other times they just order off the website. I was like I wonder if that's you know, so-and-so you know.

Philip Pape: 32:42

No, that's awesome. I mean so because people are always wondering, like, what does this person do? Because they want to emulate it, and that's not always the right approach when it comes to training because they're elite athletes. But it does lead me to ask do you guys have like training programs that you offer associated with the product or even for free online for people to check out?

Nick Colosi: 33:02

So right now, all of our education is more clinical sports, performance-based, for health professionals and personal trainers, strength coaches, things like that.

Nick Colosi: 33:10

But as BFR has now evolved, almost half of our customer base is non-health professional, so it's like patients and athletes and, just again, just general fitness enthusiasts. So we are currently transitioning to offer more options for them, for more custom programming. So we're launching a new website in about 60 days we are going to start doing 30-minute free consultations with customers to just say, hey, what are your needs, what are your goals, how do you want to apply this to your training? And then we can kind of go over that with them and then offer them, you know, online coaching, just in BFR, you know, if they want. So I'm like, yeah, that's 30 minutes enough, just I just need to get started. Others are like I need my handheld from start to finish, right, so then we're going to start doing that and offering some more specialty courses as well, you know that are non-clinical, just so people you know people are using it not only correctly but also, you know, optimally for their training, so they get the most bang for their buck.

Philip Pape: 34:11

Cool man. Yeah, no, I, without being in a walking infomercial, I'm probably going to be using them more, maybe posting some stuff for folks, so those listening to the podcast. Maybe I'll do a follow-up episode or two from this on taking the information and talking about the recovery mode and walking with it, and maybe some tips for folks who want to try it, Because I do think it opens up a whole other world. That again, I don't know why more people haven't heard about it. I don't know if you know why that's the case or not.

Nick Colosi: 34:35

I think it's because it sounds dangerous. It's relatively unknown, mainly because the price point was so high for so long. But I think we're at a point now where we're getting the price point down. I think our 3.0 is 299, right. So as far as BFR goes for electronics, it's the most affordable electronic BFR device you can find. You won't find a more affordable product for that short of like straps. So making it affordable was like step one. Step two was getting it into the hands of patients from primary market was clinical, so we did that. Now it's okay. We got athletes using it. We got people that are working out four or five days a week. They're really into their fitness. They've heard about BFR. They want to kind of take it to the next level or they want to augment their training older and they want to deload the joints, you know, and it's still workout and still lift weights. So it's interesting the amount of people that it can be used for. It's really it's way more than actually I even thought when we first launched the product.

Philip Pape: 35:35

Yeah, that's usually what happens, right? People start using it in ways that you didn't expect and then boom new market.

Nick Colosi: 35:40

Yeah, although I did have one person use it. They're like I have. They're like they had four cuffs on and they had like a heart rate monitor and then they had something else on their ears and then like something on their head. I was like that's a bit much. I think you're taking the wearable thing to a whole different level that I don't want to go to. So I was like tone it down a little bit. But yeah, people are using it in ways that I never thought. I'm like ah, that's a pretty good idea.

Philip Pape: 36:04

Yeah, and I know there's an entire podcast devoted just to BFR, right, every single episode, because I can imagine now how connected we are with all the integrations, with the rings, with the wearables. There's just sky's the limit on how we study all this and connect it all together. But if there's one thing that we didn't cover today that you wished I had asked, what would that be?

Nick Colosi: 36:25

It's a bigger question, probably like something that you regret or think you could have done differently, and that would have been. I mean, I don't regret anything as far as like the product goes, because sometimes you have to take those lumps to learn right. So, like our 3.0 was our first electronic product we ever did. We were learning. So it's like if it's everything smooth sailing, you are not ready for failure. You know like you're not pushing yourself right. You know you kind of have to take those lumps. But yeah, I mean, I guess what we have cooking, I guess you know. So we have two more products that we're working on that aren't BFR related but they're health and fitness related, so can't really mention it. But they're health and fitness related, so I can't really mention it, but it's in the fitness strength realm. So I'm really excited about that because it works well with BFR and it goes to our. You know we're making things simple and easy to use for people, making it affordable and making it affordable that that's kind of what our company's all about.

Philip Pape: 37:19

What a tease man. What a tease. All right, I guess I'll see what that is.

Nick Colosi: 37:22

Yeah, I'll see in the next months with the new product. That's kind of what we're looking at. So we're about a year out from it.

Philip Pape: 37:28

Yeah, no. So just for the listener knows, I was more than excited to have Nick on here, because I use the product myself and any product that you go from one version to another and they seem to have listened to every single thing that customers wanted changed about that, even though the first product's great. I think they're doing the right thing. It's kind of like some of the apps that I use that they're super involved with the community and the user base, so I respect that. I think you're doing great work. Those listening. We'll throw some links in the show notes. Where would you like listeners to learn more about you and your work?

Nick Colosi: 37:57

Yeah, our website, smarttoolspluscom. You can just Google it. You can Google Smart Cuffs, smarttoolscom or SmartToolsPluscom. Yeah, that's probably the best way. You know, we're rehauling our blog so it's much more educational. Right now it's kind of again we're building a new website, so we're kind of just like in transition period right now. But, yeah, we want to be much more active on our blog. As far as you know, educating, you know non-health professionals as well as health professionals on how to best use our product. You know how best to use BFR Cool man.

Philip Pape: 38:28

What I want to do is I'm going to put together a quick little like suggested kind of program thing, maybe run it by you and let the listeners know they can download that as well and kind of connect all this together that way for our listeners. Awesome, man. Well, thanks so much for coming on. It was a pleasure. Love learning about this stuff.

Nick Colosi: 38:42

Absolutely Thanks for having me.

Never "Fall Off Track" Again with Your Fitness or Fat Loss (Risk Management) | Ep 234

Are you constantly "falling off track" with your fitness or fat loss goals?

Life has a way of throwing curveballs at our carefully laid plans. Illness, work stress, family emergencies, or unexpected travel can derail even the most dedicated among us.

But what if you could create a fitness and nutrition approach that adapts to life's chaos instead of crumbling under it?

You'll learn why traditional "perfect" plans often fail in the face of real-life challenges and how the engineering concept of Risk Management can help you build flexibility and resilience into your routine.

Discover simple ways to identify and prepare for both foreseeable and unforeseeable obstacles, and the mindset shift that turns setbacks into learning opportunities.

Whether you're struggling with consistency or just want to "bulletproof" your current approach, you'll learn about a tool to create a sustainable, adaptable fitness plan that keeps you progressing no matter what life throws your way.

To master flexible dieting for fat loss, muscle building, and better health, download my free Nutrition 101 guide at witsandweights.com/free

Main Takeaways:

• Risk management in fitness involves planning for both known and unknown challenges

• Building flexibility into your plan is key to long-term consistency and success

• A resilient mindset sees obstacles as opportunities to learn and improve, not reasons to quit

• Regular assessment and adjustment of your approach ensures continued progress

Episode summary:

In today's fast-paced world, the challenge of maintaining a consistent fitness regimen can be daunting. Many embark on new fitness journeys with enthusiasm, only to be derailed by life's unpredictabilities. This episode explores how engineering principles of risk management can be the key to creating resilient and adaptable fitness plans that withstand everyday chaos. The traditional all-or-nothing approach often leads to frustration and inconsistency when life doesn't align with rigid plans. By incorporating risk management, you can craft a sustainable strategy that adapts to life's inevitable curveballs.

Risk management is a concept commonly used in engineering to foresee and mitigate potential disruptions. By applying this to fitness, we can anticipate both foreseeable and unforeseeable challenges. Foreseeable risks are those we can predict, such as work deadlines or planned travel, while unforeseeable risks are the unexpected events like family emergencies. The key to success is developing a plan that can adapt to both types of risks. This approach allows for flexibility, much like a shock absorber cushions a car from road bumps, ensuring that your fitness goals remain within reach even when life throws you off course.

One practical step is to identify potential risks by reflecting on past experiences and brainstorming possible future disruptions. Consider the likelihood and impact of each risk, then prioritize the top three to focus on. For each risk, develop contingency plans, or "if-then" strategies, to ensure you're prepared. For example, if work commitments often interfere with workouts, have a quick home workout ready as a backup. If social events tend to derail your nutrition, plan to eat a protein-focused meal before attending or decide in advance what you'll consume.

Flexibility should be built into your overall plan. For training, this might mean allowing your workout schedule to stretch over an extra day or two. For nutrition, consider using ranges for calorie and macro targets, rather than rigid numbers. Having multiple meal options available ensures you can adapt your eating habits even when your routine is disrupted. The iterative process of assessing and adjusting your strategies ensures they remain effective over time.

The ultimate goal is not perfection, but progress. Risk management shifts your mindset from seeing setbacks as failures to viewing them as opportunities to learn and improve. Each challenge becomes a lesson, and the process of adapting reinforces your ability to navigate life's unpredictabilities. This approach empowers you to maintain control over your fitness journey, transforming potential obstacles into stepping stones for success.

To summarize, a perfect plan doesn't exist because life is inherently unpredictable. Risk management provides a framework for creating flexible, resilient strategies that keep you moving forward despite disruptions. This episode is a valuable resource for anyone seeking to achieve long-term fitness success without succumbing to the rigidity of traditional plans. For further guidance, visit witsandweights.com/free for additional resources that support this flexible approach to nutrition and fitness.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever started a new fat loss phase or training program with enthusiasm, only to have it derailed by unexpected events like illness, work, stress or family emergencies, and you find yourself constantly falling off track and struggling to maintain consistency with your goals, this episode's for you. Today, I'm going to reveal how the engineering concept of risk management can help you create a bulletproof plan that adapts to life's chaos and uncertainty. You'll learn how to build flexibility and resilience into your nutrition and training approach so you can keep making progress even when life throws curveballs your way. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are diving into a concept from the corporate world risk management. Hear me out, it is not as boring as it sounds. It's not just for big corporations and Wall Street types. This is an engineering principle and I've used it almost every day in my engineering career. That can be a real secret weapon for creating a sustainable, resilient, adaptable plan and in this case we're talking about your fitness, your nutrition and so on that will then stand up to real life, because, think about it, how many times have you started something new. You're super excited. You're entering a fat loss phase, starting a new training program. You're ready to go Monday? Right, I'm going to start on Monday. You're all fired up, ready to go, and then it falls apart, sometimes pretty quickly, when unexpected stuff happens. Right, maybe you got sick, maybe you had to travel for work, maybe some family obligations just took over your schedule. You know, 20 people visited your house, whatever. And suddenly that quote, unquote, perfect plan that you had mapped out goes right out the window, and so we're going to talk about that today. I'm going to show you how to use risk management principles to create an approach that can bend without breaking, no matter what life throws your way, because that's what we want, that is what is sustainable, something that you can just keep doing, no matter what, knowing that the default is life. Life is the default. Things that are unexpected is actually the norm. And before we dive into that, just really quick. If you enjoy the show, if you want to hear more episodes like this, hit follow in your app. It helps people find the show, but it also makes sure that you don't miss an episode. Just hit the follow button, make sure that you go into your podcast app you're listening right now and click, follow or subscribe whatever it's called.

Philip Pape: 2:50

All right, let's talk about the main reason that most plans fail, and this this is really any plan right, whether it's in the corporate world, engineering or with your fitness. And the biggest culprit here is rigidity. We create perfect, ideal scenarios in our heads, and I do this as well. Our future self is going to be perfect. I'm going to work out five days a week, I'm going to meal prep every Sunday, I'm never going to touch food after 7 pm, I'm going to get my 12,000 steps a day and it's just going to work out Right. Sound familiar, even if you think you have the discipline and willpower to do it. And the problem is, life doesn't care about this, life doesn't care about your plan. Life is messy, it's unpredictable, it loves to throw wrenches even to the best laid schemes that we create. And then what do most people do when this happens? They think they failed, they beat themselves up. They oftentimes just give up like, oh, I just can't be consistent, I can't stick to my plan because this happened, and that is the all or nothing mentality that leads to frustration and inconsistency. And this is where risk management comes in.

Philip Pape: 4:00

In engineering, risk management, sometimes called risk and opportunities management, is about planning for the known and unknown risks to get to your outcome, to achieve your objective, to get the product out the door on time, on budget, meeting all the requirements, and it's not about creating a perfect plan. It's about creating one that is resilient to all the things that you may not foresee, and there's two types of risk we deal with. So this is really important. There are foreseeable risks. These are the known unknowns. Okay, these are things we can predict that might happen, based on our experience and based on common sense. It's the things that you know are going to happen, but you're not sure when like getting sick, like having to travel for work, like dealing with holidays, social events. You know they're going to happen. They're known unknowns. That's foreseeable. Then there's unforeseeable risks. These are unknown unknowns, things that you don't know. You don't know the curve balls that you could not have possibly anticipated, like a family emergency that pops up or you suddenly have to move, or a global pandemic hits right, so sound familiar. And those are the. So there's the what we know, we don't know, and what we don't know that we don't know. And the thing is, we know that all of that is going to happen. We know that the unknowns are going to happen and we know that the unknown unknowns are going to happen.

Philip Pape: 5:31

So the key is to create a plan that can adapt to both types of risks. And instead of a rigid and flexible plan which guess what? Hint, that's what diets are like the keto diet or vegetarianism or whatever it is rigid and inflexible we want to build a strategy that's more like a shock absorber, right? It can cushion the impact of the bumps of life and then just allow you to keep moving forward, like a really good suspension on a car, you know, not like a finely tuned sports car trying to go off road, right, but actually something that can handle all the bumps. So how do we actually do this? So I'm going to give you just a few practical steps here. The first one, of course, is we have to identify what those risks are and this is reflection, this is brainstorming Anything that could derail your plan.

Philip Pape: 6:15

Go through the list, take a piece of paper out and think about your life and, over the next six months, what could happen Work deadlines, family commitments, do you get sick on a regular basis, or your family or your child gets sick and it could make you sick. And it's not like you're trying to predict when exactly these are going to happen, although in some cases, like social events or the deadlines, you know when they're going to happen. And then you're basically leaving room for the things you know are going to happen. You're just not sure when the things you know you're going to happen and when they're happening, and then even some things that you may not have a clue they're going to happen, and then for each of those, you want to identify how likely it's to happen and how much it would impact your plan, because some things may not matter that much, right, like, okay, you have a work deadline. It creates stress, but if you know for sure you're going to schedule in your training in the morning and work doesn't start till later and it's not going to matter, then maybe it's not going to impact your plan as much. But it might impact your food plan, right, having having more stress or having a situation where you have to go into work more frequently or something. So for each one of these, you want to know is it how likely it is and how much will impact your plan, and then you can prioritize the ones that you want to focus on the most, and I would just keep it simple and literally just, you know, circle the top three that you want to focus on for this exercise.

Philip Pape: 7:36

Now step three develop strategies to deal with each risk. This is develop strategies to deal with each risk. This is contingency plans. These are what I've sometimes called if-then strategies. If you often miss workouts due to work, then have a 20-minute home workout ready to go as a backup. If a social event is going to come up for work let's say you get invited to a happy hour and you're going to go because it's good for business or whatever and it normally derails your nutrition then I'm going to eat a small protein-focused meal before I go out or I'm going to have a plan ready to go to choose what I eat and drink at any event. Right. So if, then, eat and drink at this at any event, right. So if then, if unexpected travel comes up, then I'm going to research nearby or the hotel gym in advance, or I'm going to pack my bands or my blood full restriction training cuffs for a in-room workout, right. So again, it's if this thing happens. I don't know when it's going to happen. I don't know how long it's going to be. I'm going to have a then strategy, a contingency plan for it.

Philip Pape: 8:47

The other thing that complements this, that supports this, is building in flexibility to your whole plan in general. By default right Now it depends on what we're talking about. So, for example, training, training sessions Instead of saying I'm absolutely going to work out five days a week, you can say I have a plan for a five day. You know five days of training. But because I know sometimes I'm not able to do that, I'm okay stretching out my week by a day or two and still getting in on my workouts. I just might have an extra day there or I might shift them back and forth, right. So either the number of training sessions can kind of spread out beyond that week or I know that I have flexibility in the days that I can train right. If you're only training three days a week, you probably have more flexibility to do that than, say, if your training program is five or six days. So that's some flexibility on the training side.

Philip Pape: 9:40

For your food, I love ranges, right Minimums and ranges for calorie macro targets. So again, it depends on what you're going for. But let's say you're in a fat loss plan, you have calorie and protein target. I would want to hit the minimum protein but then kind of get within 100 or 150 calories of the calorie target, either direction from fats or carbs. Right, like, create the amount of flexibility you need to know that it's sustainable.

Philip Pape: 10:08

Another flexibility is eating throughout the week, right, when you do meal prep and when you have quick options to go to in your pantry and you are smart about your grocery shopping ahead of time so that you have your fridge, your cabinets, your pantry filled up with multiple options. Then, if something throws you off during the week and you can't stick to your normal meal plan, your normal routine, even if you have prepped it, you'll at least have a second, third or fourth backup that you can go to and you're not just reaching for the candy jar or reaching for the vending machine, right, or just you're not sure what to do. So you stop in a grocery or you stop in a convenience store and you grab, um, you know a muffin, right. Or uh, you know calorie dense hot dog or something. So, building in flexibility, compliments, having the backup, uh, contingency plans.

Philip Pape: 10:58

And then, because you have all this flexibility built in, you always want to assess uh, is it working for you? Is one of these things not actually solving the problem and mitigating the risk? Let's say you are invited to a happy hour and you go and all of a sudden, the same thing happens, as always happens. You have the nachos, you have the three margaritas and you overconsume and before you know it, you've gone way past your calories for the week, despite having your risk management plan. Well, that plan obviously wasn't effective, so you just have to come up with a different one that's actually going to work. So that doesn't rely on you having too much discipline or willpower to do it.

Philip Pape: 11:42

And that iterative process is part of the flexibility of risk management and is key to, again, sustainability. And then, underlying all of this is, again, we are not trying to be perfect, we're not trying to have a perfect plan, nor are we trying to execute perfectly. We're trying to just make progress from day to day. Look at every challenge that trips us up as a lesson to adjust our plan rather than a reason to quit and we'll be fine. And so the power of this approach isn't just helping you stick to your plan. It's in transforming the approach, in the relationship and thinking like a risk manager, not seeing setbacks as failures, but really data points, opportunities to learn, to adapt, to improve the system.

Philip Pape: 12:25

Right, that vacation that used to derail your diet for weeks because, well, you know, I ate whatever I wanted on vacation and I can't get back to it now. I'm off track. I might as well just enjoy myself for a while. Now that is a chance to practice the flexible strategies, the flexible eating and nutrition strategies. That busy work period that would have meant skipping the gym. Now it's an opportunity to test out either the home workouts or the flexibility you built into your training days. And that is now taking the power back into you, an internal locus of control. You're not trapped now by some external rigid rule, some unrealistic expectation. You actually have power to navigate the unpredictable nature of life which is the default and make progress, and that is the key to sustainable long-term success.

Philip Pape: 13:18

So if we were to just recap this episode number one, a perfect plan will fail because it can't adapt to life. There's no such thing. Number two risk management principles are a way to create a flexible, resilient strategy, both contingency plans and building in flexibility, which then number three, allows you to make consistent progress even when life gets chaotic, and not just quote unquote, stick to your plan, which now is really a wide range of flexible options, but changing your approach to it in the first place, which will serve you well forever. So your goal is not to create a plan that worked perfectly in ideal conditions, because that doesn't exist. It's to create a system that keeps you moving forward no matter what life throws your way, and that's really it when it comes to risk management.

Philip Pape: 14:06

So if you found value in today's episode and you want to learn more about creating a flexible, sustainable approach to nutrition, I do have a guide that I think you're going to enjoy, called the Nutrition 101 Guide, and it's geared toward body composition with this flexible approach. Just go to witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in my show notes. Again, witsandweightscom slash free or click the link in my show notes and I'll send you the guide for free. It'll help you master that flexible dieting.

Philip Pape: 14:34

Whatever your goal fat loss, muscle building, improved health. It covers everything from calculating your ideal macros to optimizing your nutrition for your workouts, and it's a really good companion to today's episode, because today was a little bit more high level about the risk management in general, but then this helps you dig one level deeper with some practical tools for this resilient, adaptable strategy. Again, go to witsandweightscom, slash free or click the link in the show notes. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember, in fitness and life it's not about avoiding obstacles, it's just being prepared to overcome them. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Metabolic Inflexibility After Extreme Dieting on 'The Biggest Loser' | Ep 233

Have you ever wondered why crash diets seem to backfire, leaving you worse off than before? Do crash diets seem to set you up for failure instead of long-term success? What if there’s a smarter, healthier way to achieve sustainable fat loss?

Philip (@witsandweights) explores the truth behind metabolic adaptation and the science of extreme weight loss, as seen on The Biggest Loser. Discover why crash diets cause more harm than good, leading to muscle loss, hormonal imbalances, and a slowed metabolism that makes fat loss even harder. More importantly, Philip shares a sustainable approach to fat loss that prioritizes health and performance without punishing your body.

🔁 Share this episode on social media and tag @witsandweights on Instagram, Threads, or Twitter/X.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:05 The Biggest Loser effect explained
3:24 The science behind metabolic adaptation
6:22 Hormonal imbalances and disordered eating
7:18 The truth about metabolic flexibility
12:00 Sustainable fat loss: A smarter approach
20:20 Building sustainable habits
22:40 Working with your body, not against it
27:58 Outro

Episode resources:

• 7 Surprising BMR Facts (Your Metabolism Isn't Broken)

Metabolic “Damange” After Extreme Weight Loss? Lessons from 'The Biggest Loser'

Are crash diets wrecking your metabolism? If you've ever lost weight rapidly only to gain it all back (and then some), you're not alone. Let's dive into the long-term consequences of extreme weight loss methods like those used on 'The Biggest Loser' and uncover why sustainable fat loss is crucial for your metabolic health.

The Biggest Loser Effect: What Research Reveals

A groundbreaking 2016 study by Dr. Kevin Hall followed up with contestants from Season 8 of 'The Biggest Loser'. The findings were eye-opening and challenged many assumptions about rapid weight loss:

• Contestants were burning about 500 fewer calories per day at rest, even six years after the show

• This metabolic slowdown persisted even in those who managed to keep some weight off

• Significant muscle loss contributed to lowered metabolic rates

• Hormonal imbalances led to increased hunger and decreased feelings of fullness

These results paint a clear picture: extreme dieting doesn't just lead to weight regain – it can have lasting effects on your metabolism.

Understanding Metabolic Adaptation

Rapid weight loss triggers a process called metabolic adaptation – your body's survival response to what it perceives as starvation. This includes:

1. Decreased resting metabolic rate: Your body becomes super efficient, burning fewer calories at rest

2. Increased efficiency in movement: You burn fewer calories for the same activities

3. Hormonal changes: Disruptions in leptin (fullness hormone) and ghrelin (hunger hormone) levels

It's important to note that some degree of metabolic adaptation is normal with any weight loss. What was surprising about 'The Biggest Loser' contestants was the extreme degree and persistence of these adaptations.

Debunking "Metabolic Damage" and "Inflexibility"

You might have heard terms like "metabolic damage" or "metabolic inflexibility" thrown around in fitness circles. While these concepts point to real phenomena, they're not entirely accurate from a scientific standpoint.

Your metabolism isn't permanently "broken" after extreme dieting. However, it does become highly efficient at storing energy and resistant to further weight loss. This is your body fighting to defend its highest weight – a survival mechanism that can work against your fat loss goals.

The idea of "metabolic inflexibility" – the supposed inability to switch efficiently between burning carbs and fats – is still being researched. While it's an intriguing concept, its role in weight management may be overstated.

The Hidden Costs of Crash Dieting

Beyond the metabolic impacts, extreme dieting often comes with other hidden costs:

• Muscle loss: Rapid weight loss often results in losing muscle along with fat, further lowering your metabolic rate

• Psychological toll: Many contestants developed disordered eating patterns and a warped relationship with food and exercise

• Nutrient deficiencies: Severely restrictive diets can lead to inadequate intake of essential nutrients

• Reduced performance: Extreme calorie deficits can tank your energy levels and gym performance

Sustainable Fat Loss Strategies

To avoid the pitfalls of extreme dieting and achieve lasting results, consider these strategies:

• Focus on gradual fat loss: Aim for 0.5-1% of body weight per week

• Prioritize muscle retention: Incorporate regular strength training and maintain adequate protein intake

• Implement a flexible approach to nutrition: No foods should be off-limits; focus on balance and moderation

• Emphasize overall health markers: Don't fixate solely on the scale; consider energy levels, sleep quality, and gym performance

• Be patient and consistent: Sustainable change takes time; focus on building lifelong habits

• Monitor and adjust: Pay attention to how your body responds and be willing to make changes as needed

The Power of Working With Your Body

The biggest lesson we can learn from 'The Biggest Loser' study isn't that weight loss is impossible. It's that extreme, rapid weight loss often backfires. Instead of viewing your body as something to be hacked or tricked into rapid transformation, see it as a complex, adaptive system that responds best to gradual, consistent change.

Every balanced meal, every workout, every good night's sleep is an investment in your overall health and metabolism. This approach might not give you dramatic before and after photos in 12 weeks, but it will give you sustainable results and a healthier relationship with food and fitness.

Key Takeaways

• Extreme dieting can lead to significant metabolic adaptation, making future weight loss more challenging

• While these adaptations are real, they're not permanent "damage" to your metabolism

• A balanced, patient approach leads to more sustainable fat loss and better long-term metabolic health

• Focus on overall health, not just weight loss, for lasting results

Remember, your body is incredibly adaptive. With the right approach – one that prioritizes gradual, sustainable changes – you can achieve your fitness goals without sacrificing your metabolic health. It's time to work with your body, not against it, for lasting transformation.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you've ever heard about metabolic damage or metabolic inflexibility after crash diets, this episode is for you, because we are diving into the long-term consequences of extreme weight loss methods like those used on the Biggest Loser. You'll discover what really happens to your body and metabolism when you lose weight rapidly and why contestants struggle to keep the weight off years later. More importantly, you'll learn why the concept of metabolic inflexibility might not tell the whole story and what current research actually says about sustainable fat loss. If you think you need to lose weight, whether 10 pounds or 100 pounds, understanding the real impact of extreme dieting is crucial for achieving lasting results without compromising your health. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're venturing into the dark side of extreme weight loss methods the long-term effect of shows like the Biggest Loser. Imagine losing a ton of weight through an intense diet and exercise program, only to find yourself years later not only regaining the weight, but struggling to lose fat no matter what you do. And this is not a hypothetical scenario. It's the reality faced by many contestants from the Biggest Loser, and it's a cautionary tale for anyone considering extreme measures for rapid weight loss. Today, we're going to break down the science behind what really happens with extreme dieting, explore the complex relationship between rapid weight loss and metabolic changes and, most importantly, discuss a more balanced approach to sustainable fat loss. If you enjoy this episode, if you've been following the show for any length of time and you enjoy it, just do me a quick favor and share it on social media. You can just take a screenshot and share it to your story or some apps like Spotify. Let you share directly to Instagram and then tag me at Wits and Weights.

Philip Pape: 2:05

All right, let's get into today's topic, because I want to break this down into a few segments. The first is what I'm going to call the biggest loser effect, what the research actually shows from this great example of the most extreme form of weight loss that we have. The second segment is we're going to unpack the concept of not only metabolic damage, which I think if you listen to this show at all, you know it's not a real thing but there is something called metabolic inflexibility, the idea that you shift from fat to carb burning and back and forth, and now, all of a sudden, after an extreme diet, you can't do that as effectively. And then the third segment is going to be well, what is a balanced approach? What is the alternative when it comes to not just weight loss, but what we talk about here, which is fat loss losing fat, getting leaner, getting healthier, getting the physique and body composition you want, not necessarily a lower number on the scale. So let's start with the biggest loser effect. Back in 2016, so that's eight years ago as of the time of this episode. In 2016, so that's eight years ago as of the time of this episode Dr Kevin Hall and his team published a study that followed up with 14 of the contestants from season eight of the Biggest Loser, and their findings opened a lot of eyes. They challenged many of the assumptions people had about weight loss, and I think our space does well to refer to it and learn from that. And I think our space does well to refer to it and learn from that.

Philip Pape: 3:27

Six years after the show, the contestants were still dealing with the significant slowdown that they had experienced in their metabolism. Now you might think already, okay, well, that sounds like metabolic damage to me, but just hear the whole context. So, on average, they were burning about 500 fewer calories per day at rest compared to what you would expect for someone their size. And then this effect continued. It persisted even in contestants who had managed to keep some of that weight off. So even when they continued to do what they needed to do to try to maintain their weight, it was at a much lower metabolic rate. Here's a very crucial point. This metabolic slowdown wasn't just because they lost weight. It was more extreme than what we would typically expect from weight loss alone, and the researchers called this metabolic adaptation a term that we now use all the time essentially the body fighting against weight loss right, you might have heard the term survival by becoming super efficient with its calories Just very, very efficient. Not something we want to be when we're trying to lose some of that stored energy.

Philip Pape: 4:36

Now, the contestants. Here's the other important thing that's super important for us. The contestants didn't just lose fat, they lost a substantial amount of muscle mass as well. Now, this is important, because muscle we talk about, why it helps burn more calories, because it is metabolically active. It burns calories even when you're just sitting around, and I think there's more effects than just that, like the fact that the process of building muscle itself requires more energy. Being athletic requires, you know, bigger organs. A lot of the things I talked about recently on my 7 BMR facts episode go check that out. I'll link that in the show notes. But losing a ton of muscle along with the fat. The contestants essentially downsized the engine of their body, right, it's just a smaller engine.

Philip Pape: 5:25

The study also found major hormonal imbalances, for example leptin, that's the hormone that signals fullness. It dropped, you know, it plummeted At. Ghrelin, the hunger hormone, increased significantly, right? These are extreme versions of what we would see in a dieting phase, and the combination of the two left contestants then constantly ravenously hungry, even when they'd eaten enough. You know, quote unquote enough. And then there's the psychological toll, which we cannot understate here. It was immense because many of the people on the show developed disordered eating patterns, swinging between restrictive dieting and binge eating, the classic yo-yo cycle on steroids to the extreme. Their relationship with food and exercise became warped. They started to view workouts as punishment for eating and food as the enemy. And if you can relate to this, it's important to understand the psychological impacts of extreme dieting.

Philip Pape: 6:26

So now let's talk about the idea of metabolic inflexibility and you might have heard this term maybe you haven't. You've probably heard of metabolic damage and there's other terms for that in the fitness industry, and it's often used to explain why people struggle to lose weight or to keep it off after extreme dieting and why so many people say well, you just have to eat more, you just have to reverse diet. But what does the science actually say, and I think it's good to revisit this topic. Metabolic flexibility specifically refers to the body's ability to switch between using carbs and fats for fuel efficiently. Now, in theory, someone who is metabolically flexible can easily burn fat when in a calorie deficit and they efficiently use carbs when they eat them. And the idea goes that extreme dieting might impair this flexibility, making it harder to lose fat in the future. However, skepticism antennae should always be up here. It's important to note that, while metabolic flexibility is a, it's important to note that, while metabolic flexibility is a real physiological concept, I think its role in managing weight and fat loss and body composition and all of that is still being researched and debated. In other words, it may not apply right.

Philip Pape: 7:37

Here's what we know. First, metabolic flexibility does change with obesity and with weight loss, but the relationship is very complex. There are lots and lots of variables going on here and we can't always tease out the cause and effect. Number two this impaired metabolic flexibility has been observed in people with obesity and with type 2 diabetes. But again, it's not clear if this is a cause or it's just an effect of the conditions. Kind of like we say, well, people who are overweight drink Diet Coke, so Diet Coke must be making them overweight, but in fact they're overweight so they're trying to lose weight and therefore more people who have weight to lose drink Diet Coke.

Philip Pape: 8:15

Number three the direct link between metabolic flexibility and how easy it is to lose weight or to maintain your weight again, is not straightforward as it's often portrayed in, you know, the fitness industry. Some researchers argue that the importance of it in weight management may be overstated. So researchers themselves are saying this in the studies. So yeah, it's a pretty cool concept, an intriguing concept, to the point where I've thought of dedicating an episode just to the concept. But I think it's something we don't want to put too much thought into because it's not something we can control, nor is possibly relevant to what we're doing. Anyway. It's probably not the whole story when it comes to why the contestants from the Biggest Loser struggle to maintain their weight loss, and the reality is, this is physiology, this is biology, more complex.

Philip Pape: 9:06

What we do know more conclusively is that rapid, extreme weight loss can and does lead to significant metabolic adaptation. And I always advise if you're going to lose fat, we're going to do it at a conservative rate of loss so we don't experience so much adaptation, so much hunger, so much reduction in our hormone production, and also so that we are not suffering through the process psychologically. All those reasons Plus. And so we don't lose muscle. So we don't lose muscle. All of the reasons. There's no reason to crash diet, basically. And it's not about the flexibility of our metabolism, it's really just your body's becoming super efficient with calories and it's fighting to regain the lost weight all throughout that process, especially the more extreme you go. So just to revisit why this happens, why does metabolic adaptation occur?

Philip Pape: 9:59

Well, first, you have a decreased resting metabolic rate. Your RMR or your BMR pretty similar concepts have dropped for multiple reasons. One being you weigh less. Another being you're eating less. You may have a tiny bit of muscle loss, things like that. Number two is, you tend to become more efficient when you move, when you're in fat loss, and often it's unconscious. Not only do you potentially move less, you also become more efficient in movement, and this all the way goes down to this. This goes all the way down to the cellular level, practically like cells become more efficient. I'm not saying that cells movement becomes efficient, but the efficiency is systemic. Is what I'm saying? Also, hormonal changes that increase hunger and decrease fullness right, the same hormones we talked about leptin, ghrelin occur and they get ramped up because your body's saying feed me, feed me now, feed me now. A lot you know, the more you go into that diet. I think I mentioned on a recent episode how we see how, for example, thyroid production drops like five or six percent immediately in a diet and then it comes right back up at the end. But keep in mind that the biggest loser contestants went through a much more extreme change and so it took a lot longer for that to recover.

Philip Pape: 11:13

And yeah, we need to understand that these adaptations exist and, yes, they make weight loss and fat loss and maintaining our weight more challenging. They don't. This is important. They don't represent permanent damage to your metabolism period. With time, with proper nutrition meaning you're not continuing to diet these adaptations can be reversed and I'm going to say they'll be reversed. Can they be reversed all the way? Well, that's the question. If you have so much adaptation and your body has changed so much because you've lost a ton of weight and muscle, can you reverse it all the way? Well, possibly not, until you get your body back to the state it was, which itself might be an uphill climb. If you've lost a bunch of muscle, for example, now you have to spend several years training to get that muscle back. It's not just about the calories, if that makes sense Now.

Philip Pape: 12:05

There are multiple reasons for this adaptation, and it isn't just the dieting itself, but what the dieting has caused that you need to now also reverse. So what does this mean for sustainable fat loss? You're like, okay, doom and gloom. Let's talk about how to approach this. This is the bread and butter, what I love about a flexible, balanced, sustainable approach that you can actually stick with and enjoy and go out with your friends and go out with your family and eat, go on vacation and eat out at a restaurant.

Philip Pape: 12:39

Okay, the big takeaway, I think, from the Biggest Losers study is not that weight loss is impossible or that dieting always fails and if you know me, you know, I don't even care about weight loss. I care about body composition and fat loss, even though to induce that sometimes also requires dropping some weight in the form of fat. It is that extreme rapid weight loss crash dieting that is going to backfire. I was going to say it often backfires pretty much always backfires in some way. Even if you do it in a quote-unquote, controlled way, like if you go on keto and you cut carbs and you all of a sudden use 40 pounds in a month, there are still going to be consequences for that. So instead, why don't we focus on gradual, sustainable changes that work with our biology? Once you know all of this, you realize that our biology is complex, but there's a way to work with it. Be friendly to our bodies.

Philip Pape: 13:22

Here's the philosophy that I advocate. Number one I want you to focus on health, not just weight. I want you to focus on health Okay, health Instead of obsessing over the scale. Prioritize health, and I don't often say it that way. Sometimes I say body composition, but really what I'm getting at is are you giving yourself the energy you need to be able to train and perform the sleep quality and quantity you need?

Philip Pape: 13:47

You know the performance in the gym itself.

Philip Pape: 13:49

You're training hard, you're going after it to be a healthy, fit person, getting strong and building muscle, and then the nutrition supports that, and if at some point you go through a fat loss phase, that's fine.

Philip Pape: 14:00

But by having to focus on health first, mentally and physically, all the rest becomes that much more well aligned and natural and easy to go after. I can't tell you how many clients I've had who they might start off in a fat loss phase after we do the pre-diet maintenance phase for anywhere from four to six weeks, I'll say and they might go into a fat loss phase and realize you know what I don't necessarily like the cost of fat loss, the trade-offs that I have to make of, you know, eating less and having a little bit less energy, a little bit less performance and and kind of a slowdown in my progress in the gym. I'd rather actually be going all out right now for performance. That's not everybody. Some people are like, yep, I'm willing to make the trade-offs right now. So just so I can lean out a bit. But it all comes down to how do you feel, how do you perform, how's your health, and then we let the other things fall along with that.

Jenny: 14:50

Hi, my name is Jenny and I just wanted to say a big thank you to Philip Pape of Wits and Weights for the 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment he offers for free. During that session I found he asked really good personal questions that helped him be able to give me excellent advice and tangible tools which I've applied, and since then I have lost 12 pounds where I was otherwise stuck. Now that I'm closer to my weight goals, I'm focusing more on my fitness and muscle and strength. So I just really want to say thanks, philip, for all of your encouragement and the free tools you offer, as well as the positive podcast message. It's really helped me.

Philip Pape: 15:33

The second thing is gradual fat loss. So if you are going to go into fat loss, aiming for that slow, steady progress of around a half 0.75% of your body weight per week is a usually pretty solid place to be. For a lot of people that's around a pound a week, right, I'm just giving you rough numbers. We'd have to personalize it for you specifically, depending on your metabolism, your goals, your timeframe, the calorie intake, so many things. But aiming for no more than 1% of your body weight per week, that is going to minimize the metabolic adaptation and the muscle loss, especially the muscle loss. You're still going to have metabolic adaptation, but it's going to be a lot less. It's proportional to the quickness, the rapidity of the diet. Now, just real caveat here. A little caveat Because it's proportional. Just understand that you are getting something for it. I want to be clear on that. So if you decide to step on the gas and go at 1% body weight per week and then the metabolic adaptation therefore kicks up to its maximum within that range, the benefit is you're getting 1% body fat loss per week. So it's faster and you know larger magnitude and for some people that's what they want and they're willing to make that trade off. So it's just, it's all. Let's be objective about it, right? It's not a right or wrong. It's just if you do this, you get this. If you're okay with more metabolic adaptation, you do this.

Philip Pape: 16:56

Now the muscle loss piece. I have a problem with that that we have to be careful of. If you go too fast, you're going to lose muscle and again, there's always exceptions. I have plenty of clients that have a good base of strength and muscle. They have a high calorie base to work with, so they can intake a lot of carbs that are anabolic or anti-catabolic. When they're losing, they can take both protein and even when they're on a diet, whereas other people with a much lower metabolism, the carbs come down pretty low and that starts to eat into their ability to hold onto that muscle other than the protein. So what I'm saying is you can go past 1% in some cases, very personalized, okay.

Philip Pape: 17:33

Number three we do want to emphasize body composition over weight. So if we're going to still be looking at fat loss and using the number on the scale as one of many measures, we still want to prioritize maintaining or, for some of you, a tiny bit of gain of muscle mass while losing the body weight, because that means you're losing fat. It also maintains that metabolic rate, it mitigates some of these other problems and then along the way, throughout this whole process, we want to create sustainable habits, because it's not about dieting as a switch, as an on-off switch. It's really about your identity, your routines, your systems around nutrition, around training and stress management, sleep and so on that can carry with you for the rest of your life, regardless of these short-term cycles of building or losing fat. You know, building muscle or losing fat, and so with that comes some patience and some consistency.

Philip Pape: 18:32

But I think we give that lip service too much where it's like got to be patient, got to be consistent. Let's look at it this way If you try to crash diet and you're not patient, in that context it's all going to come back. You're going to lose muscle, you're going to feel terrible, it's going to take longer to recover and, guess what, you're actually further back than when you started. So even if you're impatient, like I kind of am, in a way that's actually the most frustrating long way to do it, inefficient, lengthy way to do it. So that's where you hear something like the long path is the fastest path, so to speak. It's like the planned out, consistency based approach is the one that's going to get you the fastest result at the end, ironically, or whatever term you want to use get you the fastest result at the end, ironically, or whatever term you want to use.

Philip Pape: 19:22

Okay, and then the food itself. This is oh. There's so many debates about what are the right diets and what should you cut out, and I I I need to be good or bad, I need to cut out alcohol, I need to cut out sugar and I need to cut out carbs. The best thing to cut out is this thinking and to instead add in the things that satisfy you and that you need and that you're not going to be guilty eating, and that is lots of protein, lots of fiber and, yes, some carbs. That all support your goals, make you feel great, allow you to perform, allow you to train, and it's very flexible. Resistance training, of course, is super important throughout this whole thing. The biggest loser contestants a lot of them were going all out on cardio and it wasn't about muscle mass at all, and that's a huge problem. So, just being a person who lifts weights regularly and uses progressive overload and lifts in, you know the strength regime, for part of that, using compound lifts is going to have a massive base to build on and maintain metabolic health, whatever phase they're in, including fat loss.

Philip Pape: 20:21

And then recovery goes hand in hand with that right Getting enough sleep, getting enough stress for supporting your hormones and supporting your cravings and supporting the fat loss as well. And then when you're doing fat loss, you know having diet breaks built in can be helpful for some people. Some people don't need them, they just go all out. You know, for eight, 12, 16 weeks, go all out for a fat loss phase and then you're done. Others want to have breaks in there. You know weekend breaks or week-long breaks, breaks aligned with their lifestyle, like business travel, right, or just a weekend where you plan to go out to a restaurant or go to your you know grandmother's house for Thanksgiving, whatever it might be. It can give you a little mental reset. It's not too much of a physical reset, let's be honest. I should probably do a whole episode about that.

Philip Pape: 21:11

Refeeds and diet breaks Again, because people give too much emphasis on recovery physical, physiological recovery from diet breaks. Not so much, really, really not so much. We don't see meaningful recovery until you're out of a diet for some time, at least for several weeks in a row. But there are huge psychological benefits from short-term recovery and there also is a perceived level of recovery just from all the extra calories you're able to eat when you go back to maintenance, even if it's just for a day or two. And throughout all of this, of course, you're going to be monitoring, adjusting, paying attention to how your body responds, and know that what works for you or someone else might not be working for you, because the goal is health and quality of life, which is going to be very personalized itself. Right.

Philip Pape: 21:56

I spoke to someone today who is a cyclist. He's getting ready for a hundred mile mountain biking race and he's in his sixties. He wants to be strong, he wants to be healthy. He doesn't even care about aesthetics. Now, you might care about aesthetics and, honestly, if you focus on health, aesthetics will take care of themselves. But you know for him he has a specific goal that he's going after. That's very personalized and so health and quality of life for him might be different than for someone else.

Philip Pape: 22:23

You know I had surgery last year on my shoulder, so health and quality of life for me was recovery, taking it at the right pace to get back and not re-injure myself, having the right nutrition supplementation to support that, okay, and this approach might again seem like, oh, that's more work, that's going to take longer, but it's actually the one that's going to stick and give you the lasting results, which means it's actually more efficient and even faster. So I want to leave you with something super powerful, because I know the context of this was the biggest loser and I think the biggest lesson from that show isn't really about metabolic damage or metabolic flexibility or inflexibility. I think it's about the importance of working with your body and not against it. Not punishing yourself, not doing something that feels like I mean, if anybody's aware of that show, it was like people screaming at them. It was this all out, balls to the wall, go above and beyond everyday extreme. That is not realistic for anybody to do this sustainably. We're not even talking about a competition or a race or something where, yeah, you do want to do a more extreme level of training than just a normal lifestyle training to get ready for that. But even then, it's in a controlled, conservative fashion to get you there with your health intact and with the right fuel and the right performance to go after it and just trying to lose a ton of weight is not going to be that. So, instead of viewing your body as something that has to be punished, has to be hacked, has to be tricked into rapid transformation, see it as an adaptive system that responds best to love, to gradual, consistent change. Every meal that you're balancing out with protein and fiber, every training session that you give it, that what we call acute or hormetic stress, that good stress that your body feels great but it also is going to have lasting effects by building muscle, every good night's sleep you know that you wake up feeling refreshed. Those are all investments that really pay off. Those are investments in your health, right? Not punishing yourself on a treadmill, getting sweaty, getting sore, feeling like you're going to die, feeling like you're going to just keel over and thinking that that is somehow a good sign, that is somehow associated with good health. Cause, it's not. It's not If you're punishing yourself.

Philip Pape: 24:45

If you think of your language around the gym, if it's like, oh, that was brutal, oh, that crushed me, and it's not done out of just like jest. Like you know, if I do a heavy back squat, I'm like grinding through it, I'm like, oh, that was brutal. That's different, I mean, in my opinion, because it's more about the language. That's different than something that just makes you want to puke and collapse afterward and then you can't walk up the stairs for three days and then guess what. It's really not going to give you a result anyway that you're going for. There's a difference. If you go on the biggest loser, are you going to have a dramatic before and after? Absolutely Right, is that really what you want when you then lose it? So the biggest losers lost a lot more than that, didn't they? They lost their ability to sustain that, and it actually crushes your confidence, because then it sets you up for thinking the only way I can get to something that I'm going for with aesthetics or weight or whatever, is to do this crazy extreme thing. And then you dread that thing or you just won't do it. You're like, well, I'll do that next week or I'll do that next month, and then you don't do it because it's not the right thing to do for you, right, it's not the right thing to do.

Philip Pape: 25:49

You want a peaceful relationship with food. Food is something you eat multiple times a day, every day, for the rest of your life, don't? We want to enjoy that relationship. It doesn't mean you have to, you know, indulge and just love every single bite and mindfully eat 100% of the time, or anything like that. It also doesn't mean that everything that goes in your body has to be just of the perfect health, so to speak, right. Give yourself some flexibility.

Philip Pape: 26:12

Training is kind of the same thing. It's like life is going to happen. You might have to shift your training day around, you might have to swap out some exercises. Just show up and go to the gym, get it done right, and in the long run, that's going to matter for who you are and then what you are, what you're able to do and, yes, even what you look like. So imagine being able to lose fat when you want to maintain your weight wherever you want to maintain it, and then actually enjoy the process. That's what we're going for here. Okay, and it's achievable For anyone who's willing to play that long game. It's achievable and I want you to reach out. If you want to understand how right Reach out, send me a text message using the link in the show notes. Hit me up on Instagram at Wits and Weights.

Philip Pape: 26:55

I want to recap, just to kind of reiterate the importance of this episode and what we learned from the Biggest Loser, because that extreme dieting, that rapid weight loss that leads to significant metabolic adaptation, that results in weight regain but, worse than that, it results in your overall metabolism being lower than it was before because now you've lost a bunch of muscle. The concept of metabolic inflexibility it's very intriguing Metabolic damage and flexibility but in reality, a lot of this is effect and cause, not cause and effect. Having a balanced approach that prioritizes health and then the consistency and patience to get there is really what's going to pay off. All right, before we wrap up, if you found value in today's episode, I really appreciate it. I'm so grateful if you would just share it on your social media. That's all I'm asking for.

Philip Pape: 27:40

Tell people about it.

Philip Pape: 27:41

Take a photo of you listening you know, hey, look at me or a screenshot of the episode and just post it. Post it to wherever Instagram X threads. Tag me at what's in weights and let your friends know what you learned and why you found the information helpful. That's really all I'm asking for. If you found this helpful, if you're like, hey, this guy talked about what really is happening when we diet, I think you find it pretty cool because he talks about, you know, losing fat instead of losing muscle, or he talks about a better approach that you could actually enjoy, and you don't have to feel guilty and like you're punishing yourself.

Philip Pape: 28:14

Just share it with people. I also love to see who's listening, so when you share it on social, I'll be able to see who's commenting, who's listening and then hearing how you describe the show to people. So don't be shy. Don't be shy. Share away. Let's spread the word about smart, efficient, sustainable strategies based on the evidence. Okay, until next time, keep using your wits, lifting some weights, and remember your body is incredibly adaptive. With the right approach and with the love it deserves, you can achieve your goals without anything extreme, without extreme diet and extreme measures. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.