Testosterone, GLP-1s, and Fat Loss Over 40 (Jay Campbell) | Ep 496

Interviews
Written By Philip Pape

Over 40 and suddenly struggling to lose fat or build muscle? It must be your hormones... right?

Not so fast.

Jumping straight to TRT, HRT, peptides, or GLP-1s could be solving the wrong problem.

Jay Campbell, author of The Testosterone Optimization Therapy Bible and co-founder of BioLongevity Labs, breaks down where hormones actually fit into fat loss, muscle building, metabolism, and longevity.

We cover why testosterone boosters usually disappoint, what free versus total testosterone can tell you, common mistakes with TRT, estrogen management, and why lifestyle still matters even when using therapeutic tools.

Jay also shares his perspective on strength training over 40, building muscle for longevity, cardio and visceral fat, and the rapidly evolving world of GLP-1 medications and peptides.

Join Eat More Lift Heavy to build strength, lose fat, and learn what works for your body, 1 week at a time. Learn to eat more and lift heavy with confidence. 

Timestamps:

0:00 – Are hormones blocking your progress
2:22 – How much hormones really matter
9:35 – Testosterone boosters and marketing hype
12:58 – Lifestyle versus therapeutic hormone tools
17:45 – Jay’s long-term TRT experience
24:11 – Estrogen mistakes during testosterone therapy
31:36 – Hidden signs of hormone deficiency
41:40 – Muscle, cardio, and longevity
52:59 – GLP-1s and what comes next

Episode resources:

  • Are hormones blocking your progress

    Philip Pape 0:00

    If you're over 40 and the fat loss has stalled, someone has probably said, eh, maybe it's your hormones. Take a testosterone booster or get on TRT or HRT and now get a GLP1 and watch the weight just fall right off. My guest today has been on testosterone therapy for over 25 years. He wrote what many consider the definitive book on it. And he'll be the first to tell you that most of what's being sold to you in that area is a scam. We discussed today when hormones do and don't matter for you after 40, when they might be distracting you from the real problem, and the one thing you need to be doing right now to optimize your hormones, whether naturally or alongside HRT, if your goal is to lose fat and build muscle. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that puts a popular piece of fitness advice under the microscope, finds the hidden reason it doesn't work, and gives you the deceptively simple fix that does. I'm your host, Philip Pape, and today we are examining a belief that is everywhere right now that if you're older, if you're over 40, if you can't lose fat or build muscle, your hormones are of course the problem, and fixing them is the solution. Testosterone clinics, creams, pellets, peptides, GLP1s, all the stuff we're talking about today, all over social media. And the premise is that a syringe or a supplement will solve all your problems when nothing else seems to work. My guest today is DJ Campbell. He's been on testosterone therapy himself for more than 25 years. He's the author of the testosterone optimization therapy Bible, and he co-founded BioLongevity Labs. He is right in the thick of this industry. He knows better than anyone where the real value is based on the evidence versus where the marketing maybe is overhyping or cherry-picking the science. By the end of this episode, you'll know the latest on testosterone, where hormone therapy and peptides fit into, of course, your lifestyle and your health, and the most appropriate use of GLP1s, while avoiding some of the downsides around muscle mass, aggressive deficits, and even performance. Jay, welcome to the show.

    Jay Campbell 2:04

    Philip, thank you so much for having me, man. That was an awesome it was a little different than a normal bio, but I'll receive that and blessed to have you to have me speaking with you today. So I know this is going to be an epic interview.

    Philip Pape 2:14

    Absolutely. And a lot of the listeners probably know who you are. And we'll get into like your background and where you're able to speak from credibility to some of these topics. Sure.

    How much hormones really matter

    Philip Pape 2:22

    And that'll just come up. So I really want to start with kind of the big question where people who listen to this show, for example, they know the value of lifting weights, they know the value of life's getting your sleep, you know, taking care of your body, eating right. But how likely is it that hormones on the list of things that are important are the reason that somebody is struggling to hit their goals, whether it's fat loss, building muscle, or performance?

    Jay Campbell 2:47

    So it's a complex, it's a great question and a complex answer because I really think it also depends on like where the person is in the world. You know, DNA does play a role, but in the modernized, you know, areas of the world right now, which would obviously be the West, clearly almost every coastal population center, urbanized city in the United States, the environmental contamination is unavoidable. Like, you know, like I say, you know, from the water that we drink in plastic bottles. I mean, this is the best water on earth, right? This is Icelandic water. It's this is the best water you can get like in a bottle in the world, because it comes from an actual deep mineral springs, still in Iceland. It's one of the only places in the world that's not contaminated. But between the water, the air, the food, the blue light, you know, the EMF, I mean, it's very, very difficult for people today, and really in their younger, you know, like now, even in their late 20s, early 30s, mid-30s, and beyond, to not have, you know, some sort of hormonal dysregulation. And, you know, I think the medical system, if we want to call it that, you know, the allopathic, you know, sick care, illness management system, it's not trained to help people understand hormonal deficiencies. They're not even like looking for that, right? Like most of the doctors, even a young guy or let's say an aging person, say 40 or older, goes and they're complaining of, you know, brain fog, you know, dregulated mood, lack of energy, belly fat, et cetera. They literally want to give them, you know, a PD5 inhibitor like Viagra or Cialis, or they want to give them a SSRI, right, to alleviate their brain fog and their poor mood. And they'll never even look for the underlying condition, which is obviously usually sometimes a hormone, not not usually, almost all the time now at this point, some form of hormone deficiency. So I want to say that I would say between 70 and 80% of people who are doing everything else right, if they have a hormone deficiency, it's going to be a huge obstacle for them to get to where they ultimately desire to go, which would obviously be leader, more tone, more muscular.

    Philip Pape 4:49

    Yeah. So that's interesting. What about the flip side of that? People that aren't doing all the things right. Yeah. You know what I mean? How likely is it that hormones are the causal factor? You know what I mean? 99.9%.

    Jay Campbell 5:02

    Because the issue is there, if so if you're fat, and I mean fat, right? And the BMI is, you know, not the greatest gauge for muscular people, obviously. But if you're, you know, 29 or 30 or higher BMI as a middle-aged man or woman, the likelihood that you have a hormone deficiency is very high, right? Because the insulin resistance, the belly fat, the inflammation, the cytokines, all the stuff that's going on in that belly fat or that fat that's over your internal organs is literally causing a hormonal dysregulation. So it's crazy. It's, you know, the kick, the chicken or the egg scenario, right? Yeah, yeah.

    Philip Pape 5:37

    I'm glad you did. I'm glad you said that though, because like that, people expect the other answer. And like you said, it goes both ways, right? It influences your hormones. It's like you got cytokines. Well, you know, build muscle. Now you have myokines kind of setting and things like that. So I want to unpack a couple of things you mentioned about the hormones in the environment. You mentioned environmental contamination. And, you know, that's that's an interesting area, right? Because unless you're very careful with how it's framed and like the evidence, you could go, I there's there's a lot of quackery in that world, you know. But I've heard you talk about this, and like I think about women's health, for example, and all the cases of infertility and endometriosis and all this stuff that's all of a sudden blowing up and then low testosterone in men, and you know, and some of that is testing and things, I get it. But and what's the other thing? Older folks that go to the doctor, not even younger guys. I mean, I know plenty of older folks in my own family, older guys in their 60s and 70s, you know they need to get their testosterone checked, and the doctor never mentions it. No, it's like, what the hell? So it's important.

    Jay Campbell 6:31

    No more, they don't understand how to treat it anyway, right? And again, most men who do go in their 30s or 40s, and they only because it's at the behest of their wife, because they can't get an erection or they can't hold an erection, or they just have no desire, right? Like a lot of women think their husband's cheating on them because they have no interest in him, but it's really because they just have a dis you know dysregulation of their hormones. But in truth, if you go to a doctor and the doctor's not qualified, which is again 80 to 90 percent of GPs, right? Actually insurance doctors, they're literally going to, if you ask them to do it, they're going to test your total and not your free. And then they're gonna be like, oh, you're 350 or you're 400, you're you know, 290, you're fine. Yeah, you're in rate. They literally don't understand the difference between free and total anyway, because they never learned that stuff. So they're never gonna tell you, oh, you have a testosterone deficiency because now the onus is on them on treating you and they don't know how to do it.

    Philip Pape 7:25

    And now, now let me, you know, here's another thing, right? So let's the whole, if you had to pick a whole like a pie of all the things that have affected testosterone in the modern generation, right? You mentioned environmental. There's also a general decline in testosterone. Although I've heard I've I've heard more analysis of this that maybe that's a statistical thing and not a real thing. Or in other words, the population has lower testosterone, but it's correlated with higher body fat. And so you would expect it, right? Is that what it is?

    Jay Campbell 7:52

    Yeah, that's literally what they say. And if you look at this, you know, what they call the standard mean deviation of like the levels, the ranges at the top and the bottom, that is definitely happening. It's it's it's flattening and people are getting fatter. So you can 100% say that, but there are studies out there, and I've published them, you know, in my book, The Landmark One, was the Hebrew, and they took, you know, 68 or 70,000, I think it was 68,000 guys on all seven continents, and they studied them from like 1972. It was a meta-analysis, and then it was released. I think the data was released in 2014, but it was a 40-year thing, and they were able to show that testosterone levels were down about 80% and fertility levels were down statistically, like you couldn't even account for it. So obviously that you know, they deduced that it's just the environmental contamination. And again, when I say environmental contamination, I mean it's just modernization, right? Like this is the results of everything that we are building, all the plastics, the phylates, the pesticides, you know, the things that are almost unavoidable, you know. And that's why, like when I talk about this stuff, like I always say the biggest tool in the tool belt for everyone, man and woman, is always going to be therapeutic testosterone. However, you definitely have to change your lifestyle first, right? Like we have to make sure that we account for all the things that are affecting us. I mean, dude, think about all the men that are wearing nylon boxers, you know, lowering their sperm count, suppressing their, you know, the spacing in their testicles with these, you know, horrible, you know, again, polyester, whatever they are, nylon, you know, threads that, you know, essentially suppress hormone production. So there's so many different things that we have to account for. And so it's really, really difficult, you know, if you interview smart doctors that are really, you know, I would say awesome in prescribing hormones these

    Testosterone boosters and marketing hype

    Jay Campbell 9:35

    days, and thankfully there are enough of them out there that will tell you that it's very difficult to be, especially in like a New York City or LA or Miami, to do everything naturally right and still not have an issue, right? So that's to me can be the biggest thing. And that's why I always say at the end of the day, if you're doing all the things right and you still have a dysregulation, you know, it's best to look into therapeutic hormones because again, it will move the needle bigger and faster than anything else will.

    Philip Pape 10:00

    Yeah, for sure. So I definitely want to hit on these pieces then. So when we talk about therapy, you know, and I also am a big fan of therapeutic options, as you mentioned. So I want to get out of the way, like the non-therapeutic things that a lot of people go to because it's cheap, easy, you know, quick. I just want to try it out. And I'm thinking there's both like testosterone boosters, like it says it on the package and also herbal stuff, Ashwagandha, yeah, all that stuff that some of it's great for other reasons, potentially, but talk to us about that.

    Jay Campbell 10:29

    Well, yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up because this is so old for me, right? So, I mean, in my first book that I wrote, which was really pub, really written in 2014 but published in 2015, was the first one it was the definitive TRT manual. And as you know, a lot of people, a lot of people have come to me and said this. I was the one that never said this, but they're like, you know that Jeff Bezos read that book because it was, you know, number one in men's health in 2016 for like six months. And then in 2017, he went from pipsqueak to the guy walking around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, you know, you read that book, Jay. So many people have said that to me. But look, me analyzed in that book a whole chapter on natural testosterone boosters. And then we also obviously went deeper in the 2018 book, which was obviously the one you quoted, the TOT Bible. And the reality is that all the statistics and meta-analysis are on boosters, you know, call them, you know, aphrodisiacs. You you mentioned Astral Gonda, you know, there's Tribulus, there's what is there's the stuff that Huberman sells, there's there's all these different things that, like, when you take that Greek, yeah, exactly. Yeah, but you take them and then you measure, you will see an elevation in a lot of different things. The thing is, it's always transient. And so I always tell people like, none of these things are going to keep you optimized or get you on the path to being optimized. And that's the thing. And so, you know, I always make the joke about it now, is what is it? It's nugenics, right? Or it's it's Frank Thomas and Doug Flutie on those commercials, right? And they're, you know, they're showing them with their shirts off and their 50s and 60s, and it's like, oh, if I take this booster, I'm all jacked. And it's so many people still believe that, you know, and you know, whether it's due to needle phobia, you know, or the fear of you know, that there's so much demonization, as you know, in the public about taking therapeutic testosterone and how you make you could become addicted, or you know, there's the Lyle Alzado nonsense.

    Philip Pape 12:13

    I mean, there's just so much stuff attached to GLP1s are no problem with very little research, but T I know so it's I mean, but it's a stigma, right?

    Jay Campbell 12:21

    It's been there for decades, and there's still so many people that are attached to the stigma. And because of that, and let's not forget also the lack of education in the physician community and or lack of enough doctors, you know, again, for insurance providing doctors that can prescribe testosterone, and you have what you have, which is again, people being fleeced, you know, and that's the truth about all of these things. And again, like you said, you know, Astrogonda, great for cortisol suppression. I take it at night before I go to bed. Is it going to increase my testosterone to make me feel optimized? Absolutely not. And there are some

    Lifestyle versus therapeutic hormone tools

    Jay Campbell 12:58

    tons of other things that we already mentioned, you know, and again, these are all covered in my book. But at this point today, outside of like taking HMG or HCG or and clomophene or even clomophene itself, which will re you know increase FSH and LH, which is obviously follicle stimulating hormone and glutenizing hormone, there's nothing that is going to actually optimize your hormones other than the real McCoy. It's just there's nothing out there.

    Philip Pape 13:22

    Yeah. So let's play the stack game, the lifestyle stack and then the therapeutic stack on that, because man, I've worked with clients who like they lose all this body fat as they're on TRT, and then they're all of a sudden too high on the because that has gone up naturally as well. So, like, how much of low T symptoms, I guess, and actual low T can be influenced by, for example, I think fat loss is the big one, but there's also under or overtraining, poor sleep, stress, all the other things in life, like where would you put the biggest levers?

    Jay Campbell 13:53

    So for sure, you know, if you're going to do this naturally, uh and again, this is the chicken and egg syndrome, right? Because an obese man struggles with energy, right? So if you're going to give them a protocol, you know, maybe you throw in a microdose of a you know retitrutide or terzapatide and you give them therapeutic testosterone, and obviously you have your training dialed in and their cardio dialed in and their eating dialed in and all those things. It's better, you know, for an obese man to be on, you know, again, a combination of those things, essentially, if they're doing all the other things, than it would be to just attempt to have the obese man do all the things without testosterone and Bretta or TERS because again, their metabolism is so slow because they have the obesity and you know, the insulin resistance, et cetera. So I like when they are you know heavier and dealing with these issues, I like working.

    Philip Pape 14:41

    Can I challenge that a little bit? Just a tiny bit. I want to see what you think about this. You said because the metabolism is so slow. I mean, there are a lot of overweight men who have a rather high expenditure, but I think isn't the issue more the appetite and the hunger and just the inability to to change that lifestyle to do what they need to do.

    Jay Campbell 14:58

    I think it's multifactoral. I think I think I think we have to deal with a the reason they're like that is because clearly they're not eating well. Right. And if they're eating boxed foodstuffs in engineered food all the time, then without a doubt, what you just said is true. They have some sort of an addiction to eating like shit. You know, like Sal says on on Mind Pump, you know, it's discussed with me, the hyperpalatability of food from all the chemicals, you know, a lot of these people are addicted to the chemical sensation. Yeah, you know, they're not really addicted to the actually overconsumption of the food, it's just the addiction from the brain. So that's why I like if you're again, and and everybody's different, but if you're morbidly obese and you have no energy, you know, testosterone being lipolytic, being dopaminergic signaling, you know, spiking, all those things, it helps motivate a person to get on the path to do all the things. And and I'm not saying that a person can't do it without them, but and and and let's be honest, Phil, five years ago we didn't have this anyway, right? So like they had to do it, but nowadays it's just if you understand, and again, there aren't a lot of doctors that understand this, there's not even a lot of trainers that understand this, or even functional health coaches understand it. But if you do understand how to microdose and use therapeutic hormones, it's going to be a better, you know, call it adjuvant as long as they're doing all the other things. And more times. As you know, the other things are always most important. And I always say this when I talk to people peptides or testosterone are not magic bullets. You cannot, under any circumstances, do anything with any of those things if you don't have your lifestyle dialed in. And so many people think that they're just cheat codes and that they're easy buttons and you know, exercising a pill or a bottle or something like that, and that all you have to do is that. I mean, some my chiropractor today was a Justin Mean, he was saying some woman came into him, and he's not like us, but you know, he knows a little bit, and she was like, Oh, she was telling me about this redotrutide. And he's like, What can you tell me about that? You know, and I'm like, Well, yeah, bro, redotrutide is a pre-figured, yeah, and you know, it's been around in the research community and really now everybody's community for three years, but it's still not approved, and blah, blah. And he's like, Well, she told me that, and then it was just instant, you know, you could tell the doctor told her, you know, builds muscle, you don't have to lift weights. So this is what people are being told. You know, this is the nonsense. Because again, at the end of the day, dude, like the doctors are attempting, as I always say this, they're attempting to make money. And if a pharma rep comes into them and says, start them here and go higher, that's how everybody in the pharmac, you know, the pharma command circle makes money. You know, the pharmaceutical giant makes money, the actual pharmaceutical rep makes money, the doctor makes money, the patient is the one, you know, that gets experimented on because they're the ones that usually have the receptors blown out because the dosage is starting too high and then it goes too high. It's like I always say in the pharma world, titrate high go higher.

    Jay’s long-term TRT experience

    Jay Campbell 17:45

    You know, in the research world where you're doing it right, it's start low go slow, right? So it's like you just have to have an under and uh what I would call an education or an understanding and an awareness of like how to use these as tools because that's all they are. That's what testosterone is, that's what peptides are, GLPs, they're just tools, they're not magic buttons and I think or magic bullets. And I think so many people think they are because they don't get the correct education when they're initiating.

    Philip Pape 18:09

    Yeah, I can't argue with anything you said because I definitely see the use of this suite of tools from folks who, even if they're not obese, even if it's just like they're really struggling to get to that next part that they want to be at and they have a deficiency and they're lifting all the time. It's frustrating, man, when you're doing all that stuff, especially, you know, you get older and maybe the testosterone continues to drop more and more. And exactly what you're doing is now you actually going back in. It sucks. So you now you've been on testosterone for quite a long time now. Like I'm just curious about your personal experience there. What did it, you know, what did it change for you versus not? But also, were there any not myths, but like things that are overhyped, I guess, that bit that people think about testosterone?

    Jay Campbell 18:50

    Yeah, so I've been on therapeutic testosterone since I was one month from turning 30. So this goes back to 1999 because I'm 55 today. Um, so I've been on it, what, 26 years, basically going on 27 years, and I've used every delivery system. You know, when I first started, it was injectable. And then after that, I was like, oh, you know, I have to inject myself. Because back then, dude, we didn't have 31, 32 gauge insulin needles, you know, they were used, they had testosterone in like cottonseed oil. You know what I mean? So a lot of people, if you had any kind of like hyperallergic or, you know, a histologic response to it, you you'd have an injection response to it. But and you know, back then they were probably injecting with like 24, 25 gauge needles. So, you know, it creates our scar tissue. But then after that, you know, I was using cream and I was, you know, putting it on my forearms, putting it on my inner thighs. And then obviously, you know, as time progressed, we found out about transcrotal testosterone. You put it at the base of your scrotum, you know, 200 milligrams per gram, compounded cream. So I've used them all. You know, outside of that, obviously I've written prolifically about all the different delivery systems. Outside of small needle, you know, insulin syringe injection, where whether it's either I am or sub Q or transcrotal, all the other delivery systems are fraught with issues or will not raise a man or even a woman's testosterone into optimal levels. You know, there's guys now out there, you know, promoting this, I forget what it's called. It's an oral, you know, lozenge. There's even the testo, which is the nasal stuff, which is, by the way, horrific, which causes headaches and sinus infections and sinus cavity issues. And my God, it goes on and on. But there's lots of delivery systems for testosterone. Almost all of them are highly inefficient, other than, like I said, small insulin gauge syringe injections. And that's again, I am or sub Q. You can obviously inject into the belly. I want to talk about that in a second. And then transcrotal. And for women, same thing, injection or cream on the inter labial lips or the hood of the clitoris. Because again, that tissue is the same permeate, how would I say it, permanent skin permeability that a man's penis has. It's exact same a bit, a bit. So but base of the scrotum or at the hood of the clitoris or interlabial lips is the same. So those are your only two tried and two delivery systems that work for people. I know there's other stuff out there now, and there's even, you know, that oral lozenge is now FDA approved, but everyone that I've spoken to about it, including Docs, say, yeah, you can get a man of like 200 to 400, right? So it's like the FDA loves it, right? Because you don't actually optimize them, but you can show movement, you know, on the chart. So great. But then you also find out that it's like 450 bucks a month with insurance, right? Versus a bottle of you know, 200 milligram 10cc testosterone, 75 bucks, you know, from good RX. So you really just have to understand the ins and outs. But to your original question, if you do this right, and what I mean by doing it right is again, microdosing, starting low, going slow, not expecting it to make you the incredible Hulk or to you know a professional bodybuilder or any of that. Because again, I always like to say to be that size, you have to take a lot of stuff, right? Not just testosterone, but you know, most likely some other stuff anabolics, growth hormone, insulin, you know, eat a lot of food. There's lots. Peptides you can talk about too. But the reality is if you're just using therapeutic testosterone, you start very, very low. You attempt to do as many shots, or if you're using the cream, it's daily administration, but it's as many to mimic the body's natural production, right? So I always settled on in my life and still to this way to this day, three shots a week. So it's like every other day. There are lots of people that inject every morning. You know, I know lots of guys and women that do that. They think it's like, you know, part of their morning ritual. They like injecting with a 31 or 32 gauge needle. You know, like for a woman, it's like two milligrams, you know, and for a guy, it can be like 15 to 25 milligrams or something like that. Or some guys to probably do 30, you know, to get around 200. But again, everybody's dosing is different. As far as the side effects profile, if I go way back to remember it, because I don't have any sides anymore from any of this. I've been on it for so long. You know, the the little things that most people know about, you know, you can get bumps, you can get like little zits, you know, or rashes like on your upper back or your upper shoulders. I think that that has a lot to do sometimes with diet, you know, how much insulin, what your insulin sensitivity is. Like when you're eating a lot more carbs and you're eating, let's say, less restrained, I've always noticed, and again, this is my opinion, but I've always noticed that you can get more acne. I think people call it back. But again, I wanted to talk to you about like testosterone in the belly. I think one of the things that a lot of people don't understand is if you have a lot of belly fat, you know, so you, you know, you've got insulin resistance in your belly where your belly fat is, and you inject testosterone into it, which a lot of people do, it causes another inflammatory reaction because the visceral fat in you know senses the testosterone and is like, what the hell is this? It's another chemical you're injecting into it. Not to mention it's not just testosterone, it could be, again, grapeseed oil or MCT oil or whatever. So a lot of times guys get, you know, what they assume to be estrogen-related side effects, you know, mood imbalance, water retention, you know, irritability because the belly fat and the testosterone don't mix. And none of those are high estrogen symptoms. Those are all literally due to inflammatory response by your body. Yeah. So I mean, I talk about this a lot, but again, a lot of doctors mistake this because so many

    Estrogen mistakes during testosterone therapy

    Jay Campbell 24:11

    men who are fat, you know, when I say fat, I mean literally they're carrying like a spare tire, right? So lots of guys are, you know, big training in the gym, but they got a belly because they're drinking too much alcohol, eating too much processed food and sugar. So when they inject the testosterone into the belly, they get that inflammatory response. And then that response by their doctor is like, oh, your estrogen is, you know, high. I got to give you an AI or I got to suppress your estrogen. And dude, as you know, you just shook your head. So I do know you.

    Philip Pape 24:36

    Without even testing it, right?

    Jay Campbell 24:37

    You never under any circumstances suppress a man's estrogen because when you suppress a man's estrogen, that's when the side effects and the symptomology starts. Because as I like to say, man, and this is like really well understood in the medical world, but not in the TRT, you know, and testosterone using world, estrogen, estradiol is a pleiotropic hormone that's responsible for brain health, bone mineral density, skin health, sexual function, heart health. I mean, I could go on and on and on. So when you suppress estradiol, you are creating all sorts of very bad cellular processes and cellular cascades that you don't want. So, you know, there's thankfully some really good doctors out there that have looked at guys who have been on therapeutic testosterone for decades, you know, let's just say 15 years plus, who've been on AIs and dude, they have the bone mineral density of birds, like literally birds. Like their skeleton cannot hold, or let's just say they cannot deal with axial stress because you know, their bone mineral density has been destroyed. So again, it's I think the most important thing is for anybody that's using therapeutic testosterone, if your doctor is putting you on an AI, fike, immediately seek out another doctor, because there's never a reason to use an AI. And the other thing to mention about that, which is important, is there's no level of estradiol that is too high. And what I mean by that is in the absence of symptoms and side effects, if you start therapeutic testosterone and your estradiol goes to 120, 150, I've even seen it at people like 180, and you don't have any symptoms or side effects. Theoretically, Philip, you are more protected from a vascular or cerebral event than anybody who has like an estradiol walking around of like a 50, 60, or 70. And so many doctors see an estradiol in the 60s, 70s, and 80s and instantly freak out and say, Oh my God, we got to lower your estradiol, because it's not in that magical, you know, standard mean abbreviation, which is insane. And again, again, this is what this is what blows me away. The very truth of the ranges, right? And you've got Lab Corp, you've got what's the other one? Quest collab, and then there's a couple other ones now. And if you ask the governing bodies, which is the andrology deal and then the endocrinology society, what how did you guys come up with these ranges? They literally said, I'm not joking, this is a fact that oh, we just took an average man in the 50s and we measured it, and that's what we gave it to. So imagine that doctors are trying to give people or keep men, especially, in that 22 to 40 magic range from the 50s for men who aren't even on therapeutic hormones. It's absolutely insanity. So I always tell people if you're gonna go on therapeutic testosterone, do nothing else and allow your estradiol to fall to its natural level. Because again, we're all biochemically unique, as you know. So your range, it's gonna raise or it's gonna go to wherever it's gonna go, and then it's gonna level off. And if you don't have any symptoms or side effects, and again, very few guys do, again, you might have mood alteration when you first start, you might have a little water retention. The fatter you are, the more water retention you're gonna have. Because remember, aromatase, the enzyme that cleaves you know, testosterone into estrogen, is found in fat tissue. So the fatter you are, the more aromatase you're gonna have. So that's all very normal. But again, you have a medical community that doesn't really understand this very well. And so all the time they instantly panic. They either withdraw their testosterone dose or they put them on a higher dose of an AI, and that's the absolute wrong thing to do. And, you know, to your question earlier about levels, that's also getting weird because the best doctors know that they don't even care, right? Like some guy might have 1500, some guy might have 950, you know, some guy might have 1100, 1200. In the absence of symptoms and side effects, the testosterone level doesn't matter as much. It's just like, you know, one of the doctors who used to mentor me was like, Do you feel good? And do you have any symptoms or side effects? If you don't, everything is fine. I will give you a guidance range. I think free testosterone for optimized men has to be somewhere between 40 and 45.

    Philip Pape 28:47

    Which unit is that?

    Jay Campbell 28:48

    Because I know there's a couple that's picoliters per picograms per deciliter. And so, like, you know, most guys that I've consulted with, and there's been thousands, you know, when I see a guy who feels great, they're 42 or higher, right? I've walked around for a decade probably at 50, right? And that's just kind of where I'm at. And I'm again, I don't take that much. I take probably 140 to 160 milligrams a week. And very honest, dude, like with our new stuff, you know, the biolongevity labs, the FLGR, and the clotho, you know, clotho literally improves hormone production. So there's been times since I started clotho where I've only taken two shots a week. And so I'm only getting like 100 milligrams a week, and I feel no different. I've tested since I've been on clotho, done labs twice since I've been on clotho, and never once have I been below 50 on a free testosterone level. And trust me, there have been many weeks in the last like nine months where I've only taken two shots because I've just been traveling and you know, you just forget and stuff like that happens. So as I'm getting older, my testosterone dose is going down. Yeah, but I haven't shown from a clinical lab or you know, biomarker indication that my levels are going down. But my because of because the replacement is sufficient, you're saying. Yeah, well, or you know, it's also I think the clotho is, you know, improving hormone production. I mean, all the science shows that it does that. And so I didn't really figure that out until like last couple of months because I got my labs done again, and I'm like, you know what? I haven't even been taking three shots a week, and I'm still, you know, 50 free and like 1150 total. And I'm my my doses are a lot lower. So it has to be that. Now, obviously, I'm just giving you an opinion, but that's what I think, you know, after talking with some other people, because some other people similar to me have noticed similar things.

    Philip Pape 30:29

    Yeah, it's funny. As you were you were saying that I was looking up my last check, it was like 2021, 67 free, 600 total, which shows you that the like the the numbers can be very different.

    Jay Campbell 30:39

    100%. Yeah. And that and listen, it's very important for men that are watching this to know that your total, it's not a meaningless number, like I used to say, but it's not as meaningful because again, total is bound and not accessible, right? And free is bioavailable and available to be used by the body. So if you have a high total level and you have a, let's just call it an in as a suboptimal SHPG, which is sexomorm binding globulin, then that means that you really don't have a lot of free testosterone accessible. And again, you see this in a lot of skinny fat guys, guys who don't lift weights. They're gonna have like a 50 plus or 60 plus SHPG, and they'll be like 525, you know, total, and their doctor won't measure their free, and they'll be like, Oh, you're great, and they have the worst testosterone deficiency. These are, dude, these are guys that have like a seven or eight free testosterone. You see that all the time. Docs always miss that. They always miss that.

    Philip Pape 31:34

    And what about the weekly bound?

    Hidden signs of hormone deficiency

    Philip Pape 31:36

    I've heard of that too, right? In between, does that matter, or is free is good enough to tell you?

    Jay Campbell 31:40

    Free. I mean, it does, but for all you really have to understand is you're free. And and and and again, if you have a free, and again, that picograms per deciliter magic number, and you're below 25, you absolutely have a testosterone deficiency. Now, most doctors won't tell you that because they're gonna tell you that like 15 to 25 is normal, but there wants to be normal in today's.

    Philip Pape 32:00

    No, we don't want to be normal, man. Not listening to this show. So so I always I always have this question about the symptom thing, and it keeps coming up. It it's it's one thing if you have obvious symptoms, okay, right? But what if you don't know that you have symptoms? And what I mean by that is there, I mean, we live in a world today, like you said, in the modern world where people are probably walking around far suboptimal, yes, but it's normal to them because that's all they've known. And so, how do you know? How do you know?

    Jay Campbell 32:26

    I love the question because, dude, so many people literally do walk around in a default state of suffering. Yeah, so the truth is how you know is if you the number one symptom of obviously uh a hormone deficiency in both men and women is brain fog, right? So I think the best way to say it is like if you feel like you have to take a nap at 130 to three o'clock every single day, regardless of what you eat, you know, a lot of people will debate me on this and they'll be like, oh, but that's just because they had a big carb lunch or something like that, right? And it's just serotonin release. It's like, no, if you actually feel like you have to take a nap between one and three, or you know, say two and four, then it's likely that you have, you know, suboptimal dopamine levels. And this is always due to a deficiency in hormones. So that's a number one symptom. And, you know, to your point, a lot of other guys, they when you talk about this with them, and I know like this in my own family and people in my inner circle who aren't doing what we're doing and aren't familiar with all this, they'll be like, if you even talk about this with them, they freak out and they're like, bro, everything works down there so good. Like it's always this like manhood thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No way, bro. And it's like I always want to tell people, like, look, man, a therapeutic hormone deficiency has, or I mean, sorry, hormone deficiency has absolutely zero to do with sex drive and sexual function. That's the last thing normally to go. So if you're gonna rank number one is brain fog, number two is a depressive or lethargic attitude, and then number three is energy, right? And again, I always say this to anybody nowadays if you have a belly and you're not hormonally optimized, you can just automatically consider yourself deficient. Because remember, all that visceral fat in the belly and that insulin resistance due to that visceral fat is, as you and I already discussed, is causing a cytokine storm all the time, right there. And guess what? It shuts down sexual function, it shuts down gonatic and spermatogenesis. So there's just no way that you have optimal hormones if you have a giant belly. And the same thing for women, and by the way, you spoke about endrometeosis. By the way, dude, do you know that there's actually a peptide now that's treating that? Have you heard about that yet?

    Philip Pape 34:34

    Wow, maybe, because yeah, tell me about it.

    Jay Campbell 34:36

    Well, I mean, we can get into it in a second. I I'm not like an expert on that, but I've been, you know, we're but we're contemplating selling it. But here's the here's what I can tell about this. Most women, and this is sad, by the way, but most women who have hysterectomies, endometriosis, fibroids, bro, it's all visceral fat buildup and insulin resistance from having too much belly fat. Now remember, women don't normally carry belly fat, they carry it in their hips, their glutes, but they do carry it in the vulva region. You've seen women where they have that big burst, right? Like right below where their shorts are. That's because they've got tons of visceral, hard, resistant body fat in that area. And that's what actually causes all of these tumors, these fibroids, the again, the endometriosis. Nobody's talking about this in medicine because they just don't understand the inflammatory pathways in the ways they should. There's some people. But honestly, if you get a woman to lose that hard visceral fat, and it's not easy, it's absolutely not easy. You know, they got a cardio, insulin-controlled living, hopefully a GLP, you know, a two or stage or three stage, and then obviously hormone optimization, and you get them moving, they can get rid of a lot of that fat. But almost all these people never are told this. And they're literally said, Hey, you got to have surgery. We got to remove all this, we got to remove all this tissue. And then they just cut it all out of them. And all of it, dude, I mean, I don't want to say all of it, but most of it is just very hard visceral body fat that has been in there because again, they were just, you know, overweight, you know, after their second child, they never lost the weight, you know, they call it the baby fat or whatever, and it just builds up, and that's what's causing all those things down there. So, yeah, it is very interesting. But it's, I'm telling you, if you see a woman like that or you see a man with a belly, if they're not hormonally optimized or working towards it, the likelihood that they are is extremely high.

    Philip Pape 36:26

    Yeah, I want to get back to visceral fat because that's fat, that's a fascinating area to target. Endo 205, I think is what it's called. I looked it up. And it's interesting with endometriosis, that's a whole separate topic. I know there's also a genetic component because there are young women who can have it too. So there's probably different factors. But going back to your comment about belly fat injections, do you then recommend not injecting it there to avoid those symptoms, or is that just I don't, I do.

    Jay Campbell 36:48

    I that's a great question. So that's a big failure for most physicians. Because remember, at the end of the day, most people are injecting into their belly because they don't feel it. So, you know, the better solution is going to be the upper deltoid, the back of the arm, the upper gluteal fat pad, right? And the you know, buttocks region. And for people that can handle quad injections, those are great. I cannot handle a quad injection. I have my whole life.

    Philip Pape 37:11

    That's how I inject my that's another thing I take. So it's funny you mentioned that.

    Jay Campbell 37:14

    Dude, you're gonna laugh because my entire life, like even peptide injections, like if I inject my quad, I have complete debilitating DOMS for literally 36%. Yeah, and it all happens within six hours. Now, I have never understood, I've heard from many other guys that say the same thing. I think my legs are so muscular and so vascular and so lean that it just causes some sort of weird, like inflammatory reaction.

    Philip Pape 37:37

    Yes, I just keep that extra layer of fat. It does.

    Jay Campbell 37:40

    I mean, honestly, dude, it's crazy. I mean, you know, I was gonna basketball player before, and so my legs were always just really, really muscular. But I mean I've injected, you're gonna laugh at this. I've injected into skin, I'm pulling it right now, the lax skin, like right around my kneecap, and thinking, you know, that's not muscular, you know, it's nothing. And dude, the same happens to me. Like six hours later, I'm like, God, I wish I wouldn't have done that. So I just have this weird effect in my legs, but anywhere else in my body, I don't feel anything late. Right. So I mean, we're all different. Again, we're all options. It sounds like you have options at least. I know we totally do, but you know, that's that is to me. I'm glad you asked that. I don't think any person who is, let's say, 20% or higher body fat and specifically storing it in the belly section should be injecting there. You should be injecting in areas that are more intermuscular so that you don't have that inflammatory response.

    Philip Pape 38:29

    Now you mentioned the symptoms and you said lowest is sexual function. And I think there was like if you look at these consensus statements and these position statements and stuff. I I some somewhere I came across, maybe it was in your work about women and the use of testosterone being linked to the if you have low sexual desire. Like only if you have that should you take it. Otherwise, don't take it. Have you heard that? I I mean, I don't think so.

    Jay Campbell 38:53

    I mean, let me let me just say this.

    Philip Pape 38:54

    It sounds ridiculous, especially after you just said it's a good idea.

    Jay Campbell 38:56

    Well, I will put it this way women respond to hormones much better than men do.

    Philip Pape 39:01

    Yeah.

    Jay Campbell 39:01

    And you know, again, one of the mentors who taught me a lot about this stuff used to say that giving a woman hormones is like giving a dry plant water. So you just have to give them the per the correct amount, right? And again, I always say this to people like if you understand biology and sexual differentiation, there's no difference between a man and a woman other than the amount of testosterone that they were exposed in in utero. That's it, right? So if you give a woman who's now a you know an X X chromosome and you give her a bunch of testosterone at 30, you'll turn her into a dude. And that's exactly what happens, right? So it's like, let's just be very clear. You know, a woman's clitoris becomes a penis. I mean, I don't understand why people don't understand this. It's very, very simple stuff. But if you give a woman a very low surgically precise dose of testosterone, they're not going to have any sexual dysfunction. And this is always going in your 30s, 40s, 50s. I mean, my wife is 54 and she takes two, I want to say four milligram shots of testosterone a week. Same type that I use, but it's in a 15 milligrams per cc, you know, versus mine is 200 milligrams per cc. And dude, she is just as sexually, you know, as efficient as she was in her 20s before she even knew me. Our sex life is amazing. So it's like there's no reason that women have to suffer, you know, sexually from a form of performance decline in their 40s, 50s, and 60s, but they just have to be hormonally optimized. And as you know, the WHI destroyed the hormone awareness and say, just call it understanding of physicians in America about females. And there's just so many women that are not being treated. I mean, dude, I I mean, you know, I have a huge breast cancer and all that. Yeah, dude, I have a huge private membership group now, and most of them are women. There's like 520 women in the group out of like 870 people, so it's more women than men now. And a lot of them came from Mind Pump. And, you know, these people, dude, when I hear their stories, it's sickening. Like the doctors won't let them because they miss the window. I mean, I have heard because of the WHI, it blows me away. But I've never seen a woman in my entire life who was 50 or older, who started therapy correctly. There's lots that don't start correctly, who has not said it was the greatest thing that ever happened to them. That that, you know, that they got their sexual function back, they were able to get, you know, wet and moist and you know, all the things that women want, you know, come back when you hormonally optimize them, but way too many are not. And by the way, I need to say this too like a lot of the doctors that do work with women don't give them testosterone. No, they give them literally estradiol and progesterone and dry them out. It's like the most insane thing. It's like, especially women that have had

    Muscle, cardio, and longevity

    Jay Campbell 41:40

    their, you know, been castrated, they've had their ovaries removed, right? So they can't produce testosterone now. And now you're just giving them progesterone and estradiol, you're making it worse. They don't even understand basic biological cascades. It's absolutely insane. So many women say my doctor won't give me testosterone. It's like, how is that possible? You know, but they just don't understand. They're afraid, like you said, cancer, the WHI, there's just so much misinformation.

    Philip Pape 42:04

    So let's kind of pivot a little bit here because we talked a little bit about training, lifting, talked a little bit about visceral fat. So I kind of want to attack it from both angles. One angle is okay, so powerful is muscle, building muscle, the training stimulus itself for building muscle and just carrying around that extra body, you know, lean mass. And then conversely, where does cardio come in here? And I want to target specifically some of the recent research on like certain types of sprinting for like peri-impostmenopausal women showing that it can reduce visceral fat. So maybe tackle both of those in this context.

    Jay Campbell 42:38

    Yeah. So first off, I have a new book. The book is called Living Leaner, Longer, Stronger. And it's definitely my seminal work. It was actually written by a ghostwriter. What you know, my team has been involved in it to make sure that it has my edge and everything in it. But it's written for the mainstream, bro. And I've never written a book for the mainstream previously, right? So anybody who ever, you know, has written read any of my books knows they're very advanced, right? So this book is written for the mainstream to talk about what you just mentioned, which is like building muscle, right? So I can definitely say this this statistically provable fact, the leaner you are, the longer you will live. That is undeniable. And a lot of people hear that and they're like, oh, well, what does that mean? And it means like, well, you got to build muscle. You can't be leaned if you don't have muscle. And then people will be like, well, that's not true, Jay, because in the blue zones, you know, with all these Japanese, they're not muscular. That's not true. Because if you would measure their trunk body fat and their, you know, again, call it composition, you would find out that they were very low body fat. So again, this is very simple stuff, right? The more muscle and the leaner you are, the less inflammation you have. Inflammation is what leads to all of the degradation of cells. Cell degradation leads to inflammation. Inflammation is what causes the diseases of aging. It's very, very simple stuff, but people, you know, overthink it. But building muscle is the number one longevity thing that anyone can do. There's no other biohack, no peptide. No GLP, no FLGR, none of these things. You have to be able to train at an intensity that A builds muscle and B does not overtax your skeletal, you know, frame. Right. So I think a lot of people you were talking about earlier, a lot of people, sadly, who do train don't train productively, right? Go to the gym four days a week, five days a week, some are going six, and they're doing Instagram or TikTok influencer training protocols. They're over-training, they're doing too many reps, too many sets, they're never actually, you know, taxing their muscles and what going to what I call positive muscle fiber. So without saying that, you know, if you understand how to productively train, and that's obviously to recruit, you know, muscle fibers to fail, you know, at a level that, you know, actually, you know, basically creates stimulus and builds muscle over time, um, there's nothing better. There's literally nothing better than that. Right. So I think that people, if there's if there's a take-home, it's like people as they age have to understand the coordination, the neurological aspect of training. And if you don't, because you're never an athlete, and I realize a lot of people were not, then you have to hire a coach who can get the rest. And bro, you know this.

    Philip Pape 45:16

    It's a skill, it's a skill, it's the most important skill you have.

    Jay Campbell 45:19

    But way too many people watch videos, especially in today's day and age, and then think that they know they have any clue what they're doing, and they don't. And you know, you and I know this. Like, I'm one year away from never going to a gym again. I'm building an amazing gym in my house that just the house that I just bought down here in Florida, it's gonna cost me a fortune, but it's like my custom thing, and I'm gonna just go in there, walk 20 yards from wherever I live, you know, and go into my gym. But like, I for decades I've been going to gyms all around the world and I watch, and it's sad, it's absolutely insane. And again, as you know, you can't intervene, right?

    Philip Pape 45:57

    No, no, no, you can't no, no, that's bad etiquette. You can't go teach unsolicited. Yeah, exactly. You never intervene. I mean, I see personal trainers screwing their clients up all the time, and I'm like, man, if I could just show you for five seconds, no, no, no, 100%.

    Jay Campbell 46:09

    And you know, the axiom, you know, the teacher appears when the student is ready, right? Like that's they gotta be ready, right? So you never intervene, but it's amazing to see people going to gyms. And bro, by the way, it's worse now. Younger people today are doing the most insane things. Like, I mean, it blows my mind how bad it's getting because again, the proliferation of videos. People are watching well, you know, fit people with great genetics, younger, who are doing their crazy and still building muscle, and thinking, oh, I can do this too.

    Philip Pape 46:39

    And so you're saying that it's not that they're watching videos for form, they're watching videos on programming and exercise selection and everything that's ridiculous, too. Exactly. Right. Because I was gonna say, like, what you know, when I first learned to lift, and that wasn't too many years ago, you know, I read starting strength like three times. I watched the videos, and I still had to go to a coach, you know, for one hour to fix all the things that I couldn't quite get.

    Jay Campbell 47:02

    Because it really is a skill, you gotta like you know, people like us learned from mentors, we learned from strength coaches or masters, and so many people today literally learn from TikTok and YouTube, bro. And that's not a way to learn. If again, like I said, if you're not an athlete and you have not practiced with skillful mentors or coaches who taught you the, you know, the format, the training, the actual neurological, the you know, biomechanics. You can't just start watching videos and doing it. It doesn't work that way.

    Philip Pape 47:30

    Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's funny because on this show we talk a lot about the principles like you mentioned, well, mechanical tension and other principles. And you can only do that to a certain extent, right? Because it's abstract, it's theoretical. You've got to get in there. And even when you try to describe it, it's not good enough. So it's a skill you have to put your hands on, just like gardening. You can't become a good gardener, you can't become a good musician, whatever, without doing it.

    Jay Campbell 47:51

    What is rept is kept, right?

    Philip Pape 47:54

    There you go. So yeah. So, all right, so muscle is a whole thing. That's three other episodes we can get into on that connection to this. But real quick on the sprinting thing. So in the visceral fat, yeah, there there seems to be. I know Bill Campbell actually reviewed one of the studies recently that looked at women and sprinting, and they compared it to, I think, steady state cardio and also more of a hit protocol, something like that. I might be making nonsense up and found kind of an interesting drop in visceral fat when measured through, I don't know if it's DEXA or MRI or something from sprinting. Have you heard this? I have.

    Jay Campbell 48:25

    So here's my take. So everything, so intensity of cardio is always going to be relevant to fuel source, right? So if a person is, you know, fasting and they're doing high intensity cardio with no muscle glycogen, bad, you know, if they're a keto or carnivore bro and they keep their, you know, car their muscle glycogen levels low all the time because they think that you know, carbs are the devil or the bad guy or whatever, you know, and they're doing you know, high-intensity sprinting or any kind of high intensity, also bad, because I always tell people like we have to train or lift or eat relative to our energetic demand, right? So for us, mostly bodybuilders, gotta have carbs, right? Like I know people debate that there's keto bodybuilders or carnivore bodybuilders and blah, blah, blah. But the reality is, is like our bodies are designed to handle carbs, fats, and proteins. Give them the carbs when their body is preferably gonna preferably or preferentially gonna refuel from a glycogen standpoint. So I think that all forms of cardio have merit, and I think they're all you know, especially productive. I think the older a person is, the less likely high-intensity ballistic movement is beneficial because the risk to injury is much greater. And the reason that is, again, is a guy who's 55, who used to do all sorts of HIT in his 30s and his early 40s, you don't really have the synovial fluid in the joint caps when you're in your 50s that you had in your early 40s and your late 30s. So if you're gonna do high intensity, which I still think is awesome and productive, you got to do it in the right place. You know, when you're for sure protected, you know, the floor is sand, the floor is rubberized. You know what I'm saying?

    Philip Pape 50:08

    Like I should have clarified, by the way, the study was on bikes. There you go. So yeah, so so I'm sprinting on bikes with like two.

    Jay Campbell 50:17

    Yeah. And by the way, that's what I do, right? So I have literally a life cycle over here, and then I also have one of these. Yeah, you make a good point though about injury and and all that. Yeah, so I mean, but dude, I see this all the time. It's important. Like a lot of people in their late 40s and 50s, early to mid-50s, like my age now, are still keeping up with the Joneses, they're still doing that they did in their 30s and 40s that they got away with because they could, that they're they can't now. And what I mean is, you know, sprinting outside, you know, on asphalt, you know, doing stuff like that, going upstairs, you know, at stadiums and stuff like that, you know. And and again, these are great movements for anybody who's younger and can handle that kind of wear and tear and that impact on their body. But dude, I'm telling you, running the stairs at 52, it just takes one we wobble, and your back is compressed and you've got a vertebral compression issue, or you have worse, you know, a laminectomy in your future with a disk. So you have to be very cautious. And that's why, like what you just said is perfect. Like, you know, moderate intensity to steady state with HIT mixed in, you know, on something that is not ballistic. A bike, an ergometer, you know, obviously a treadmill with a 40 degree incline is amazing, but you just you just again, and clearly I'm talking about people in their you know, 50s and older, right? I think you got to start really thinking at 44 or 45 about giving up heavy deadlifting, heavy squatting, you know, axial plate loaded stuff. You can't do that kind of stuff, even if you're strong enough to do it, because again, it just takes one you know flicker and you're out of the gym for six to eight months, and that's what you don't want.

    Philip Pape 51:56

    My community would be a little mixed on that, Jay. I'll be honest. Because there are there are a lot of guys in their 70s.

    Jay Campbell 52:02

    I know they're media that gotta keep lifting heavy. But dude, until you put yourself in the hospital and can't train for eight to nine months, yeah. I listen, I it's true, it's a starter and a heavy deadlifter guy. And I stopped at 45 and I I met a chiropractor, I can't remember his name now because he was in Southern California. This is going back about 10 or 12 years ago, but he's showing me videos of really strong people and what happened, you know, when they were squatting three plates and like what's happening to their lower spine and all this. And look, I know that people want to keep doing this, and mentally they feel amazing, but I'm just telling you, just know the, you know, be cautious because understand that the wear and tear that you're putting on your spine or the wear and tear that you're putting in your neck or you know, other places can be very, very destructive over time.

    Philip Pape 52:45

    Yeah, and combined with your earlier comment about skill and form and everything, like the more you get into that regime, the more important that is. If you are going to do stuff like that, you just have to be so dialed in and doing it right.

    GLP-1s and what comes next

    Jay Campbell 53:02

    It's just the amount that you're doing. And I see way too many people attempting to do too much and they're putting their body at risk. And that's all I'm saying. I mean, all those moves are productive and amazing for anatomical alignment and you know, just again, axial loading and all that stuff. But like, there's definitely a risk, especially with what you just said, especially if your form's not good.

    Philip Pape 53:23

    Yep. All right, let's wrap it up with a very tiny topic called GLP1s, which you you touched on a little bit here and there with the microdosing. Sure. And, you know, you've got the the single, the dual, and the triple agonist now, the semaglitite and the schizepatite, and now the depends on how you want to pronounce it, retagitite or riditride, goes both ways. And the question is like, who should be even taking them? You mentioned morbidly obese or obese people using it as a tool. That makes total sense, right? Yeah. We had Jamie Sellzer on here, who was also a mind pump, like you were, and he was like, I think the only guest they've ever had on the show. Um, and he went from like 700 pounds to 300 pounds on GLP1 while lifting and walking and doing all the right things. So, just like what's your philosophy on it in general? We, you know, we don't bash any of that here. These are all great tools. And then where do you think things are going with all of this?

    Jay Campbell 54:10

    Yeah, so it's a definitely great question and a great subject. The tools are amazing, but they're literally in two years, Philip, they'll be useless or they'll be forgotten because that's how great they'll be overtaken, you're saying. Yeah, there is stuff in the pipeline right now. And by the way, this is in my chapter, I think it's chapter seven of the book that I released in February of this year called Metabolic Awakening with GLP peptides. But the truth is is that we have a chapter in that book that's called the pipeline. And dude, the stuff that's coming, like you can't, you you really can't comprehend it. I mean, I tell people this all the time like in two years, there will be stage five molecules that will do everything. Like you, it will increase brown fat. I mean, look, dude, we already have a tool right now from BLL, FLGR242, that absolutely builds mass, floods your system with myokines, inhibits myostatin. And in the same process, it's also lipolytic, right? So it's burning fat. So if you're a man and you take five milligrams to 10 milligrams a week and you train and you eat right, you're gonna put on somewhere between six and eight skeletal pounds of mass. And I don't give a shit who you are genetic, natty, on TRT, it doesn't matter. Women can even do better because as you realize, women have less myostatin inhibition naturally, right? So you give them a little of this and you push them over the edge. So imagine that tool, you know, embedded in a four or five stage agonist, GLP, which, like I said, will activate brown fat. So you're gonna have tools that will make genetic mutants, you know, in the bodybuilding.

    Philip Pape 55:38

    So you can sit on the couch and just become a bodybuilding. Although there's a lot, I'm joking, but you still have to train. Yeah, yeah.

    Jay Campbell 55:43

    But let's just put it this way there will not be, nobody will have to suffer like they do now in bodybuilding competitions, you know, to diet, you know, to hardcore, you know, do all that stuff they do at the end. So like if you're a genetic mutant and you understand how, and again, not you, but your coach understands how to manipulate these tools and and utilize these tools to get you to go from let's say, you know, let's say you're 290 on stage, and you when you start your you know, your your shred, you're 320. And I mean, you know, before that, that was grueling work, and it's not anymore. And and I can honestly tell you that it will not be any work in two years. Like literally, if you're a genetic mutant, you will do these things. Yeah, you're sure you'll still train and be, you know, as hard as you can, but you won't be, you know, dieting down and sacrificing and you know, eating nothing but tilapia and broccoli. You know what I mean? So focus more on the lifting side. Yeah, I mean, I mean, the truth is that you know, obesity should be eradicated. Yeah, and what I mean by that is only and and and I don't think it will, but it should be, right? Because the tools are there. I mean, listen, retitrutide can eradicate obesity right now, but they won't make them affordable. So it's up to you know, educators like us, other physicians and clinical, you know, educators, to teach people that they're tools and that they need to be used appropriately. And obviously, microdosing them with all the things, you know, again, all the things that we are all talking about here with training and cardio and you know, eating correctly and getting enough sleep and mitigating email. All those things are most important always. They're the biggest tools and the biggest levers. But the rest of these newer things, when used correctly, especially as they get better, are going to be the ultimate, you know, game changer. I mean, they really will be cheat codes, dude. 100%.

    Philip Pape 57:31

    Man, we'll see where it all goes. And so I guess for those listening, there are there's a lot of tools out there. We want to send them your way and say hello and check out your stuff. We'll we'll definitely point to some of their books, but where's like the main place we should send people?

    Jay Campbell 57:44

    For sure, man. So for free information, jcampbell.com. There's so much. I think we're now in the top four sites in the world for you know information related to peptides, bioregulators, small molecules, and it's all free, of course. If they want to buy any of the amazing products that we talked about today, we don't sell any GLPs because we don't play that game on biolongevity. But you know, we have FLGR, we have Clotho, we do have a product that's a small molecule that's similar to GLPs coming. It's called Lepto3GR. And it will be a what we call a super retitrutide, but it doesn't compete in the GLP specific peptide pathway or patent chain, but it will be a small molecule that will help people actually burn fat, build muscle, obviously combined if with all the other things that we talked about today, or the other tools like therapeutic testosterone, et cetera. So that would be at biolongevitylabs.com. If you want me to make you an affiliate, I'm happy to do that. You know, we'll create an affiliate code for you and they'll give them 15% off. We're always running sales. You know, the peptide world is very commoditized right now. So, you know, if you have a great product, you got to obviously incentivize people to purchase. And then we have a landing page for podcasts. It's jcampbell.com forward slash free dash info. And at that place, you can get every single book I've ever written as a downloadable PDF for free. And eventually Living Leader Long or Stronger will be there too.

    Philip Pape 58:57

    That's awesome. All right. So we'll we'll put all those in the show notes. I'm not gonna repeat them all here and get folks a discount too to buy a longevity labs. Man, it's been a pleasure. I mean, we just barely scratched the surface. I know we did, so folks check out Jay and look, just Google him. You'll see you'll find him. He's been on Mind Pump and so many other shows. Thanks for coming on, Jay. It's been a pleasure.

    Jay Campbell 59:16

    Well, I appreciate you having me and I'm really am grateful for this call. It was awesome.

    Philip Pape 59:19

    Awesome.

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Philip Pape

Hi there! I'm Philip, founder of Wits & Weights. I started witsandweights.com and my podcast, Wits & Weights: Strength Training for Skeptics, to help busy professionals who want to get strong and lean with strength training and sustainable diet.

https://witsandweights.com
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