The TRUTH About Strength and Muscle Loss During a Cut | Ep 212

Are you ready to get lean but worried about losing your hard-earned strength and muscle? Are you concerned that cutting calories might set back your progress in the gym? Do you want to know the real impact of a cut on your body and how to avoid the pitfalls?

Philip (@witsandweights) breaks down the science behind strength and muscle loss during a calorie deficit, revealing how to maintain your gains while shedding fat. He answers a listener's question on how strength loss during a cut might not always be due to muscle loss. He outlines strategies for preserving muscle and strength, from maintaining training intensity to optimizing protein intake, and explains why most strength loss is temporary. Whether you're a seasoned lifter or just starting your fat-loss journey, you'll walk away with actionable insights to cut effectively without sacrificing your long-term goals.

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Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:24 What happens to strength during a cut?
2:46 Key factors affecting muscle and strength during a calorie deficit
10:12 Importance of maintaining training intensity during a cut
11:23 Why you should eat sufficient amounts of protein
13:40 Why cutting too aggressively can lead to muscle loss
14:53 Reset your expectations
15:23 Prioritize recovery and listen to your body
16:13 Using auto-regulated training to manage strength loss
20:45 Recap

Episode resources:

• Your Very First Cut (Lose 10-30 Pounds of Fat)

• Bigger Isn't Always Better for Strength or Metabolism (Scaling Laws)

• Even an Earthquake Didn’t Stop This Wife and Mother from Training

Episode summary:

Is it possible to maintain your hard-earned strength and muscle while cutting fat? This question plagues many dedicated lifters as they embark on their fat loss journey. In our latest podcast episode, we dive deep into this challenging phase, unraveling the science behind cutting and providing practical advice to help you preserve your gains while shedding fat.

When you enter a calorie deficit, your body seeks energy sources, often leading to a dip in strength. However, this doesn't necessarily mean you're losing muscle. Understanding the mechanics of muscle preservation and strength maintenance is crucial. Factors such as decreased neural efficiency, altered body leverage, and depleted glycogen stores contribute to strength loss during a cut. By adjusting training techniques and nutrition strategies, you can mitigate these effects and sustain your performance in the gym.

Proper nutrition is vital during a cutting phase. Consuming sufficient protein helps maintain muscle mass, while continuous strength training ensures you hold onto your gains. Even during the toughest cuts, muscle loss can be minimal if approached correctly. We recommend a gradual and controlled approach to cutting, aiming for an optimal weight loss rate of 0.5% to 0.75% of body weight per week. This method helps reset expectations on strength performance and emphasizes the importance of recovery, especially for older lifters.

One of the key insights from the episode is the distinction between muscle loss and strength loss. Strength might drop due to factors unrelated to muscle loss, such as reduced neural efficiency or changes in body leverage. This means that while your lifts may stall or regress, your muscle mass remains largely intact. It's essential to focus on maintaining training intensity and consuming adequate protein to support muscle preservation.

To minimize strength loss during a cut, consider the following strategies:

1. Maintain training intensity by keeping the load on the bar high. Avoid the misconception that you need to switch to high reps and high volume during fat loss.

2. Ensure adequate protein intake, aiming for 0.7 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.

3. Avoid cutting too aggressively. Aim for a weight loss rate of 0.5% to 0.75% of body weight per week to minimize muscle loss and performance decline.

4. Reset your expectations regarding strength reductions when getting leaner. Focus on relative strength rather than absolute numbers.

5. Prioritize recovery by getting enough sleep, managing stress, and adjusting training frequency to avoid overtraining.

In the podcast, we also discuss the importance of community engagement and feedback. Staying motivated and connected with like-minded individuals can help you navigate the challenges of a cutting phase. Temporary setbacks are part of the journey, but with the right knowledge and strategies, you can maintain your gains while achieving your fat loss goals.

In summary, cutting fat without losing muscle is achievable with a strategic approach. By understanding the science behind cutting, maintaining proper nutrition, and adjusting your training techniques, you can confidently preserve your strength and muscle mass. Remember to take a gradual and controlled approach, prioritize recovery, and stay engaged with your fitness community. With these strategies, your long-term fitness journey will remain on track, ensuring you achieve your ultimate physique.

If you're ready to dive deeper into these topics and learn how to navigate your cutting phase effectively, tune in to our latest podcast episode. Discover the surprising truths behind strength and muscle loss during a cut, and equip yourself with the tools to maintain your gains while shedding fat. Join us on this journey to mastering muscle retention and achieving your fitness goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're a dedicated lifter who's been hitting the gym hard, progressing your lifts and watching those numbers climb, and you're now gearing up for a cut to reveal all that hard-earned muscle, but you're worried about losing strength and size in the process, this episode is for you. Today, I'm going to break down the truth about strength and muscle loss during a cut. We'll explore what's really happening to your body when you enter a calorie deficit and why those numbers on the bar might be dropping, even if you're not losing much muscle. When you understand the science behind cutting, you can approach it with confidence, knowing how to preserve your gains while shedding fat. And the best part is that most of the strength loss you experience is temporary and easily regained once you return to maintenance calories. So if you've been hesitant to start a cut because you're afraid of losing your hard-earned progress, what I'm about to share will give you the knowledge you need to lean out effectively without sacrificing your long-term strength and muscle goals. Get ready to demystify the cutting process and learn how to get shredded while holding on to your gains. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:13

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we are tackling a perennial question on the mind of every lifter who goes through a fat loss phase what really happens to your strength and muscle during a cut? Now, this topic comes straight from one of my longtime clients and listeners, heather C, who was also on the podcast. Back in episode 51, which I'll also link in the show notes, she wrote quote we all talk about the possibility of losing muscle when we're on a cut, but what about losing strength simply because you are losing mass? Do we have any information on what to expect for that? So, heather, this is a great question, because she is asking specifically about strength, which you will learn about today. But strength and muscle go hand in hand, so I've decided to address both, to give you the full picture and this is one of the most common concerns I've heard from clients and listeners, and today we are going to break it down and give you the real scoop on what's happening to your body during that cut.

Philip Pape: 2:10

Now, before we dive in, I've got a quick favor to ask If you've ever gotten any value from this podcast and you haven't already. Please take a moment to leave us a five-star rating in the app you're using right now to listen to my voice and, if you're feeling generous, a brief review about what you've learned or how the show has helped you. It just takes a few seconds, but it makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people who could benefit from this information. Plus, it lets me know what content you find most valuable so I can keep delivering the goods. So go ahead, pause this episode for a moment and leave that rating and review and I'll be here when you get back.

Philip Pape: 2:49

All right, let's get into it. So let's start by breaking down Heather's question into three key parts Number one, what happens to muscle during a cut. Number two, what happens to strength during a cut. And number three, how much of the strength loss is due to actual muscle loss versus other factors? So first up, let's talk about muscle loss, because usually this is what people are concerned about and we do want to understand that, to also understand the strength. They go hand in hand.

Philip Pape: 3:15

The reality is that when you are in a calorie deficit, your body is craving, it is looking for energy sources. It's like what are you doing to me? Go out and eat, go out and sleep whatever energy it can get and it wants to hold onto the muscle because the muscle is metabolically expensive and it takes a lot of energy to maintain. But if you're not careful, your body's going to start breaking down some of that muscle tissue as fuel. So in other words, it's very interesting because once you've put on the muscle, it's not going to be lost as easy as you think. Right, it's not like it just falls off. Now. If you don't train, it will definitely atrophy, but that can happen even when you're not in a diet. So I'm going to assume that if you're listening to this, you know the importance of continuing to train, even when you're a cut. And once you've put on that expensive tissue, your body you know it kind of is in a new set point where it has that muscle but it needs the energy to maintain it. So there's definitely a fine balance there.

Philip Pape: 4:13

When we're in a calorie deficit, the good news is that if your nutrition and training is more or less on point, with a lot of leeway, muscle loss during a cut is usually pretty minimal, even if you're going more aggressively on your cut than we've said is doable. According to the evidence, even when you go a little more aggressive than that, you're not going to really lose much muscle unless the aggressiveness is really high or the cut is really long or some other factors. So I would say generally, what I've seen with clients and what we've seen in the evidence is that at most okay, at most 10% of your muscle, maybe 5%. For most people it's 1% If you're going at a moderate fat loss phase of the loss is muscle. Now, that's of the amount being lost, not of your total muscle or of your body weight or anything like that.

Philip Pape: 5:07

People who do not strength train, when they lose weight, they're losing a quarter to a half as muscle and oftentimes that's in a form of a crash diet, in which case they're accelerating the muscle loss even further. I have seen typical people following a proper nutrition plan and training lose almost negligible amounts of muscle, and if they lose a little bit more than that, it's usually the total lean mass. That also includes fluid, and then when they gain the weight back, the muscle, that lean mass comes right back. So very little of its muscle, just to assure you. And if you are a newer lifter or if you have a lot more body fat to lose, you might even gain some muscle while you cut. All right, so that's all I'm going to say about muscle today, cause I actually did want to make it more about strength. But the conclusion, the long story short there is train, eat your protein right, don't go too extreme, and you're probably going to hold on to most of your muscle. Some of you may even gain a little bit. It is not that big of a worry. If you're doing it the right way and if you track your numbers, you can kind of see what's happening.

Philip Pape: 6:08

Okay, let's talk about strength, because this is really what I wanted to focus the episode on, and this is where things get interesting, because we don't talk about this a lot. You might notice your lifts start to stall or regress, you know, go down during a cut, even if you're not losing much muscle. So I often put it this way you start to lose strength before you lose muscle. From just a simplistic point of view, a very reductionist point of view, and there's a few factors at play for this. The first one is neural efficiency or neuromuscular adaptation. When you're in a calorie deficit, your body is just not as efficient at recruiting muscle fibers. You don't have the energy, and this can lead to a temporary reduction in strength, whether you call it real strength or perceived strength. You're just not as efficient even when you have the same amount of muscle mass. So just be aware of that. It's a temporary thing.

Philip Pape: 7:08

The second factor is that your leverages change. Your leverage on certain lifts can change, especially in the big lifts that many of us are doing now. You know the power lifting lifts, the big lifts, bench press, squat, deadlift, press Well, the press less. So you might find that your technique may not give you the optimal output it normally does. And I was going to say your technique needs to change, needs to adjust as your body composition changes. It depends on how much it's changing. I would say this is somewhat of a natural process. You should always be working on your technique to the day you die, basically, and if things start to feel a little different, you'll know it if you're very in tune with it and you're listening to your body as you do that squat.

Philip Pape: 7:50

The third factor here is the energy in general, like when you're eating less, you just have less fuel in the tank. You have less glycogen, you're eating fewer carbs, right, and this will impact your performance in the gym and it will especially impact it on the bigger lifts where strength is expressed and therefore you have technically less strength, less force production. And then, kind of related to this, the fourth factor is glycogen depletion, because when you're in a deficit, your body simply stores less glycogen overall in your muscle. Not only are you not able to restore it, you simply deplete a smaller amount, which also affects your strength and endurance during the workouts. Like you ever feel drained, right, you're during fat loss, you just feel a little more tired, a little more sluggish. Maybe you do get the lifts, but it's like you get wiped out more easily, which is part of the reason why we sometimes try to get creative during a fat loss phase and shift the calories a bit, shift the carbs a bit. You know, make sure that we are really fueled up for our workouts and not trying to train fasted, those kinds of things. So basically, to answer Heather's question directly yes, you can lose some strength simply by losing mass, even if you're not losing muscle. But most of this strength loss is temporary and then it can be regained quickly once you return to maintenance calories or a slight surplus.

Philip Pape: 9:10

Now, one last thing that actually addresses what she already acknowledged is that because you're losing mass, your absolute strength declines. Right, you have less mass, less force production, less cross-sectional area, all of that. But? But if your lifts merely stall out or even regress just a tiny bit, if you divide that load by your weight, you might find that your relative strength has maintained the same, has maintained or increased. Make sense, like so, your relative strength. If you want to know more about that, go listen to my podcast. It has the phrase scaling laws. It's one of the Wednesday podcasts I did not too long ago. I'm going to try to remember to include it in the show notes. It's about scaling laws and how relative strength is often more important than absolute strength and why that's important during fat loss.

Philip Pape: 10:00

Now let's talk about what you can expect and how to minimize the strength loss. Okay, because as much as we can say, well, it happens. Great, I'm doing all the things. So what? There are things we want to do. Okay. There's five things in particular I'm going to mention today. Number one training intensity. Maintain the training intensity. By intensity I mean the load on the bar. Keep lifting heavy.

Philip Pape: 10:25

A lot of people think during fat loss, you need to switch to high reps and high volume, right, and burn a bunch of calories. No, no, no. This is one of the almost shocking revelations I had when I started lifting. You know, with compound lifts and for strength, I realized, and I learned from the best out there, that you know you might want to reduce volume and sets and reps, but you want to keep the weight on the bar pretty high. You know it doesn't have to be one arms or, or definitely not PRS, but it is going to be a decent percentage of your max to maintain that strength. Now can you do a bodybuilding type program and maintain strength? Absolutely, okay, absolutely, you can. You can, as long as you're training hard and close to failure right, and you are progressing. You're still from your body's perspective, you're still recruiting significant amount of muscle mass and giving yourself the right signal. But I like to say keep lifting heavy, because a lot of people will go way to the extreme in the other direction.

Philip Pape: 11:23

Okay, number two protein, protein, protein, protein. Whether you're a new listener or you've listened to my last 300 episodes, it can never be said too often that you have to eat sufficient protein If you're going to be lifting weights, if you want to build muscle, if you want to maintain muscle and just really have a great life. So we've got to eat protein, and I'm going to give you the range again it is 0.7 to 1 gram per pound of protein, per pound of body weight, per pound of target body weight, but just simplify it as up to 1 gram. Now you might have heard a lot of recent research or podcasters talk about how, in reality, you know something as low as 0.6,. 0.7 is probably enough for most people, and that's that's true. I like the stretch goal of one because a lot of people struggle to get enough in general and it kind of pushes you well past that minimum plus protein keeps you full. There's a lot of side reasons to have more protein, but it's not that you have to. Okay, get at least around 0.7 grams per pound and you're good. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits and Weights.

Philip Pape: 12:24

I started Wits and Weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s, 40s and beyond who want to build muscle, lose fat and finally look like they lift. I've noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential, whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created Wits and Weights Physique University, a semi-private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized, done-for-you nutrition plan, custom-designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest, leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape: 14:14

Number three is you never want to cut too aggressively. If muscle loss is a concern, or at least do it for too long of a period, all right. The range we talk about is quarter to 1% of your body weight a week. The 1% is kind of the controversial one, because a bigger person with a higher metabolism has a lot of muscle. Who's lifted for years can probably handle 1.25% a week for a while, but after a while it will start to catch up with them. Somebody with a lower metabolism who maybe is an intermediate trainee not as much weight, not as much muscle. 1% is probably as much as they're going to push it before. It just tanks your performance, accelerates muscle loss. It's not sustainable, all of those things. So for most people when they're in a fat loss phase, I'm going to recommend a half to 0.75% of your body weight a week.

Philip Pape: 15:10

Very simple. Push it to one if you want. And if you're in a special case or you're working with a coach, like if you're working with me and it makes sense to go more aggressive, which I've done many times with clients where everything is in control, everything is precise and you know, accounted for and go for it right. If it works, all right. Number four the fourth thing you can do here is reset your expectations, and this is based on the stuff I talked about earlier today, as well as that scaling laws episode. It is totally normal to get some reduction in your lifts when you get leaner and during fat loss. So both reasons, like being in fat loss but also being leaner, don't panic, it's normal.

Philip Pape: 15:49

Focus on relative strength, right Strength in relation to your body weight instead of absolute numbers. And then the last thing here is recovery, recovery, recovery. When you're in a deficit, your recovery capacity is massively reduced and for those older folks like me we're in our 40s, 50s and beyond it's reduced even further. So you've got to get enough sleep, got to manage that stress. You've got to have the right frequency of your lifting sessions where you're not just overtraining or overreaching, not doing a ton of cardio where it doesn't make sense. Pay attention to recovery and listen to your body, all right. So the last thing I want to talk about here is something that might surprise you, and that is that if you do focus on maintaining absolute strength, like PRs during a cut, this can backfire. This can be very counterproductive in multiple, multiple ways, tied into many of the things we just talked about.

Philip Pape: 16:43

So let's take a hypothetical dude named Mark. All right, mark's a big guy, he's pretty strong, he's a lifetime lifter and he's in his fifties. Okay, actually quite common for my clientele. The other part of my clients are women in peri-postmenopause. So two very common populations I work with. And he's pretty strong, he can bench press, you know, three plates, 315. And he wants to stay there even during his. He psychs himself up, he loads the bar. He's really good at doing the thing, training hard, and so he grinds out these really ugly reps just to hit the number.

Philip Pape: 17:25

Now, if you can't tell that, I'm speaking from personal experience, I am as well. Okay, and it's gotten me in trouble and I've seen it with other lifters who send me videos. I'm like dude, this is not what we mean by a max. I mean it is a true max, but not what we want during fat loss. And so he's trying to get a new PR, even while losing weight and being in a deficit. And I'm talking like arm shaking, bar tilting, the whole thing. And the problem is Mark is probably losing muscle by doing this. Why is that? Because he's so focused on hitting a PR, he's neglecting his form and he's overreaching.

Philip Pape: 18:03

And when you overreach like that, not only are you putting a lot of stress on your tendons, your connective tissue, especially for an older person, but you're doing it in a state of poor recovery, low glycogen. This is going to smash your recovery. It's going to give you a high level of fatigue that is far beyond the trade-off we want for the recovery and the growth you get out of it, because you're actually not going to get growth. You don't have the recovery capacity. You also increase your injury risk, especially for shoulders on the bench, all right at that level, especially when you see all the shaking going on and that is going to stall your progress, because now you're going to regress, probably, or you might get injured I'm not going to say you're going to get injured, but you're going to feel it and you might then experience muscle loss because the totality of your progress during the phase is not there, like it would be if you had taken a just slightly more intelligent, moderate approach. That's still training hard and pushing, and so I would recommend, in this case, using an auto-regulated style of training program.

Philip Pape: 19:06

Okay, now I'm speaking to all of you who love pushing PRs. I'm not speaking to those who are already doing physique type programs, which lend themselves very well to a fat loss phase by default. I'm speaking for people who are more strength focused or power building and they're pushing for one rep maxes or pushing for PRs. With an auto-regulated program, you can push for your max relative to today and your capacity, but not to your all time right, because this relative strength is the important thing. Your absolute strength might be dropping, you're losing body mass. You're a different person with different amount of energy coming in and you want to recalibrate to how much you can lift in relation to your new, leaner body weight and lower energy capacity.

Philip Pape: 19:55

So if you can auto-regulate, if you can do a program that has rep ranges, for example, or a session-based RPE or 1RM, not an all-time-based or a cycle-based 1RM, just whatever you can hit today and you don't overreach, the 1RM is achievable and feels like, if you guys know RPE, it feels like an eight or nine RPE and not a nine and a half or 10 RPE. Then your absolute strength probably is not going to decrease not very much at all, and your relative strength might actually improve. And then when you go back to maintenance calories, you're going to quickly surpass those old numbers. I see it time and again this bounce back where, like you did a really good job being intelligent during fat loss, and then when you're done and you come back, like the numbers come back quickly and then they start to grow even further. It's pretty incredible. So the lesson here don't let your ego dictate your training during a cut or really ever focus on quality reps. Listen to your body, trust the process, the process. If you're not sure what the process is reach out to me, we can go over the process for you and if you do that, your muscles and your joints, us older folks come on. A lot of you are listening. I know they're going to thank you for it. They're going to thank you for it and you're going to maintain your strength and your muscle and your connective tissue, health and your sanity All right.

Philip Pape: 21:18

As we wrap up, let's recap the key points for you guys. Number one muscle loss during a cut is minimized with proper nutrition that's protein, and training that's training hard. Whatever your program is training hard, keep the intensity up. Number two strength loss during a cut is more often about the neuroefficiency, the change in your leverage, the low energy availability, than actual muscle loss. Number three most strength loss during a cut is temporary and you're going to regain it very quickly. Number four focus on keeping the intensity high, the bar, the weight on the bar high, prioritizing your protein that needs to be high during a fat loss phase and then managing recovery. And then, number five, don't obsess over numbers. Look at the relative strength you have, which, granted, can be reduced to a number still if you'd like to go that route, but think of it in terms of form and pushing and training hard and progressing rather than ego lifting.

Philip Pape: 22:15

All right, cutting is temporary. Remember, we're not supposed to be cutting for years and years and years. You cut for a few weeks, you know. You cut for maybe 8, 12, 16 weeks, maybe a little longer, the first time you do it and your goal is to preserve as much muscle and strength as possible. Why so that what you lose is fat and not muscle. That's it.

Philip Pape: 22:35

Let the other 95 plus percent of people out in the world who don't have a clue what they're doing or, more correctly, they might, but they're not willing to put in the work like you are, okay, or they haven't found this podcast, or they haven't, you know. Send them here, share the podcast so they understand the importance of body composition and not just scale weight. We're trying to just lose fat, right, and so when you're in a cut, you're not trying to set PRs. That's not the goal, right? That's what your building phases are for, okay. So I get passionate about this stuff, heather and everyone else out there who are worried about losing gains during a cut. You are good. You have a smart training and nutrition approach. Like we discussed on this show, you can absolutely get lean while holding onto your hard-earned muscle and strength. Focus on the things that do get better. For example, you might be able to do more pull-ups because you're lighter. Just think about it. And when you transition back to maintenance or even a building phase, then you'll be primed in a fantastic way to push those numbers even higher. All right, that's it for today.

Philip Pape: 23:33

If you found value in the episode, I do have one last request. Just stick around for a second. I really hope that you would take a moment to leave a rating and review for the show, even if it's just a rating. Your feedback does help others find the podcast, but I think, more importantly, for your benefit, it helps me create content that serves your needs. When I see a review hopefully a five-star review, although lower stars will still give me feedback, but I hope it's a five-star review and you're specific as to how it helped you, or even the things that you wish to hear more of.

Philip Pape: 24:04

I listen to that, I look at those and I come up with topics based around those. So, whether it's on Apple, spotify, wherever you're listening, take a few seconds to leave that five-star rating and maybe a quick comment about what you've learned today, and that would mean the world to me. It would help us continue to grow this community of smart, efficient lifters. All right. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember a temporary dip in those numbers does not always mean you're losing progress. It's all part of the process and the journey to your best physique. This is Philip Pape and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Macros vs. Intuitive Eating with the Godfather of Flexible Dieting, Dr. Joe Klemczewski | Ep 211

Should you count every macro or just eat what feels right? Is there a way to enjoy your favorite foods without sabotaging your goals?

Philip (@witsandweights) teams up with Dr. Joe Klemczewski, the godfather of flexible dieting, to shatter diet myths and reveal the truth about what really works. Whether you're an experienced macro tracker or just beginning your nutrition journey, you'll discover how to balance structure and freedom in your diet to enjoy food while aligning with your physique goals. Tune in to get the clarity you need to personalize your nutrition strategy.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski, a pioneer in flexible dieting and founder of The Diet Doc, joins the show to discuss everything from macro tracking to intuitive eating. With a Ph.D. in nutrition and a background in bodybuilding, Joe shares his insights on how to approach nutrition in a way that suits your lifestyle and goals. Learn about the importance of structure in dieting, why freedom is the ultimate goal, and how to avoid common pitfalls that can derail your progress.

📲 Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15-minute call. 

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:12 Evolution of flexible vs. rigid dieting research
10:51 Precision vs. perfection: Using data to improve, not stress
14:11 The journey to intuitive eating and reframing failure
20:10 Macro targets vs. ranges or minimums
26:39 Maintaining a healthy food relationship while tracking
35:17 Personalizing nonlinear dieting approaches
40:32 Strategies for hard gainers for maximizing muscle gain
43:27 The role of carbs in muscle building and performance
46:13 Macro trade-offs during low-calorie phases
53:06 Metabolic adaptation during weight loss
58:52 Where to find Joe
59:12 Outro

Episode resources:

• Website: thedietdoc.com

• Instagram: @thedietdoclife

• Facebook: @thedietdoc 

• YouTube: @thedietdocweightloss 

Episode summary:

In this episode of Wits & Weights, host Philip Pape dives deep into the complexities of nutrition with Dr. Joe Klemczewski, the godfather of flexible dieting. The discussion navigates through the often conflicting advice surrounding macro tracking and intuitive eating, offering listeners a comprehensive guide to achieving nutritional balance and sustainability.

The episode begins by addressing the fundamental question: how do you find the right balance between structure and freedom in your diet? Dr. Joe Klimczewski shares his journey of developing a teaching approach that emphasizes freedom through education. This method is particularly useful in debunking the criticisms of macro tracking, which some argue is too rigid or a socially acceptable form of disordered eating. Instead, Dr. Joe argues that understanding the contents of your food can lead to better decision-making and long-term success.

One of the significant points discussed is the evolution of diet trends and how societal changes and advancements in digital communication have reshaped the way nutritional information is disseminated. In the early 90s, when Dr. Joe started his business, the internet and social media were not as pervasive as they are today. People relied on diet books and rigid plans available on bookshelves. This lack of accessible, flexible information often led to high recidivism rates in weight loss efforts. Dr. Joe's approach, which involves educating clients about the nutritional content of their food, aims to fill this gap by offering a more sustainable and personalized method.

The episode also explores the intricacies of coaching in nutrition and fitness. Dr. Joe emphasizes the importance of flexibility and personalization in coaching clients. Whether it's maintaining consistent daily calorie intake or allowing for more flexibility on weekends, the goal is to help clients develop sustainable habits. This approach not only helps in achieving short-term goals but also instills a mindset of learning from data rather than viewing missteps as failures.

The transition from rigid tracking to intuitive eating is another crucial topic. Dr. Joe explains that while some individuals thrive on structure, others may find freedom in a more intuitive approach. The key is to understand that everyone is on their own chronological journey, and their nutritional needs and preferences will evolve over time. This shift is particularly significant in today's fast-paced, information-rich environment, where people are bombarded with conflicting dietary advice.

The discussion then delves into the deeper aspects of nutrition coaching, from addressing psychological challenges to optimizing muscle gain and understanding metabolic adaptation. Dr. Joe explains that while metabolic adaptation is a natural response to weight loss, it doesn't mean that one's metabolism is "broken." Instead, a slower metabolic rate can be a marker of good health and longevity. He also touches on the minimal caloric impact of gaining muscle mass, emphasizing that the real benefits of muscle mass lie in maintaining a balanced physique rather than significantly boosting calorie burn.

Another critical point discussed is the importance of knowing when to seek expert advice versus handling things on your own. Dr. Joe shares personal anecdotes about DIY approaches to tasks like car repairs and house building, highlighting the efficiency and effectiveness of consulting a coach for specialized needs. This principle applies equally to nutrition coaching, where the guidance of an expert can make a significant difference in achieving one's health goals.

The episode also addresses the complexities of nutrition coaching relationships. Dr. Joe emphasizes the need for recognizing when issues extend beyond food to deeper psychological challenges. He highlights the importance of flexibility, structure, and the ability to refer clients to other professionals when necessary. Successful coaching often goes beyond just the mechanics of diet and exercise, incorporating a holistic approach that considers the client's overall well-being.

The role of clear scientific communication in today's social media-driven world is another crucial topic. Dr. Joe's ability to articulate complex concepts clearly and conversationally is praised, underscoring the value of effective science communication. This skill is particularly important in an era where misinformation can easily spread through digital platforms. By following Dr. Joe's expertise, listeners can gain valuable insights into achieving their nutrition freedom.

In conclusion, this episode offers a comprehensive guide to navigating the often confusing world of nutrition. From macro tracking to intuitive eating, Dr. Joe provides valuable insights into finding the right balance for sustainable success. Whether you're an experienced macro tracker or just starting your nutrition journey, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to achieve their health and fitness goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

you've heard it all before track your calories and macros and weigh your food no, no, no. Just listen to your body and eat intuitively. Be flexible, but don't cheat. Maintain a calorie deficit for fat loss no, just eat mostly whole foods and you'll meet your goals. With so much conflicting advice, how do you know which nutrition approach will actually work for you? Today we're cutting through the noise with the man known as the godfather of flexible dieting. Whether you're an experienced macro tracker or just starting your nutrition journey, today you'll discover how to find the sweet spot between structure and freedom in your diet, so you can both enjoy eating and align your nutrition with your physique goals and lifestyle.

Philip Pape: 0:49

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're going to bring some clarity to the often confusing world of flexible dieting with Dr Joe Klimczewski. Joe is an absolute pioneer in the field. He's known as the godfather of flexible dieting and a man whom I followed for a while, during both my personal transformation and as a nutrition coach and podcaster. Now Joe has a PhD and degrees in just about everything physical therapy, health, nutrition literary journalism. He's a retired WMBF professional drug-free bodybuilder. He's also the founder of the Diet Doc. There's also a podcast that he hosts with the same name, and he's coached hundreds of athletes to professional status and world championships. Today, you're going to learn about the full spectrum of nutrition approaches, everything from macro tracking to intuitive eating, the overwhelming evidence for a flexible approach to dieting, and how to personalize your strategy based on this info. Joe, it's an honor to have you on the show.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 1:46

I appreciate it, Philip. Very good introduction, Speaking of literary journalism. That was just completely well engineered as a script.

Philip Pape: 1:56

Love it and the use of the word engineer. So that gets me and I got the podcast name right. The podcast is also the Diet Doc.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 2:03

We do one with a couple different names, including the Diet Doc, and then Contest Prep University for our competitive athletes.

Philip Pape: 2:09

There we go. That's another good one in my feed, for sure. All right, let's start with the common criticism of macro tracking. I mean, you and I are on the same page Probably most of the listeners are as well but you've got this dichotomy sometimes between macro tracking and intuitive eating. Some people say it's, at best, a rigid approach that locks you into tracking and weighing your food forever, and then at worst it's a socially acceptable form of disordered eating. So what's your response to all of that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 2:37

Well, I have to go back and add a little of my own context in the fact that when I started this 30 years ago, I didn't really look at it as an alternative method. I looked at it as a way of teaching clients about nutrition, and so my goal was not to say you have done these methods and now I have a new system to show you. We have to learn these things. You have to learn what's in food, so then you can make the best decisions. We have to learn these things. You have to learn what's in food, so then you can make the best decisions.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 3:06

So I would say I figured it out as I went with my initial clients, going all the way back to my initial postgraduate years, and the entire entire premise was freedom, only learned how valuable structure was, probably five or 10 years ago, when people still kept asking for meal plans in some form of structure. So I think that's when I went back and relied a little bit more on my social psychology background to realize, wait a second, this is more developmental than anything. People really do need a high degree of security and structure, and then they will take the steps necessary toward greater flexibility and freedom, and I think that's why there are so many people pulling this in different directions. They themselves, as academics or coaches or practitioners, are at different levels of their own discovery, and so they project that onto their client base, not often realizing that every single client is on their own chronological journey.

Philip Pape: 4:11

Yeah, that's a great way to put it. I think you were talking on another podcast about how the intuitive eating crowd or a person who comes up with a diet book and they have this special way of looking at food and they're like you don't have to track, you don't have to count calories, you don't have to count food. By the way, here is my structured table that you need to fill out every day for the portions of this, this, this, and you need to track these kinds of food. And you're like look, it's still a form of structure, it's still a form of tracking. It really comes down to what works for you, but I do like how your premise was. Like you said, the premise was freedom. So if that's the case, why was what existed at the time not giving people that freedom, even if it seemed to ostensibly have structure or planning built in?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 4:55

There are a couple layers to think through. The first is just societally so. In the early 90s, when I was just starting my business, the internet didn't exist as it does now. Social media did not exist at all. Matter of fact, my first doctoral dissertation I had to type on a typewriter. The kind of technology and communication we have today just didn't exist.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 5:20

So the types of weight loss efforts people would engage in were should I do the zone diet or the Atkins diet? Whatever was on the bookshelves at Barnes and Noble is what people had at their fingertips, and that was literally it. That was it. And so for me already, kind of a pedagogical approach because I had just gone through so much academic work myself was okay. There has to be a way to teach these people how to do this for the long haul.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 5:49

Why do people fail? Even back then I understood recidivism was just the biggest obstacle. So if people had a hard time keeping weight off, why is that? And I knew it was because they were not learning anything, they were just blindly following a rigid diet structure. And again, as that kind of break point in our history, before mass media, before digital communication, before social media, there already existed some pushback against that. The phrase rigid dieting already existed. There just wasn't an answer for it and so, as I said, I kind of stumbled through, trying to teach people parts of diets they already may be familiar with.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 6:37

Here's what you've done in the past, what worked, what didn't work. Ultimately, why did that fail? And now we need to reverse engineer that and make sure you learn what is in food. So, tracking macros I used to, philip, go to Barnes Noble every month and buy cases and cases of Corinne Netzer's book called the Food Count Book, and it was just probably a 600, 700-page book. That was like a printed version of a macro tracking platform Database. Yeah, yeah, 700 page book, there was like a printed version of a macro tracking you know, platform database.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 7:06

Yeah, yeah, and, and, and. I would sit down with a client and our first consult was to teach them how to look up food. Look up, you know, this is what you like for breakfast, this is what you what you like for lunch. Let's use the foods you you already enjoy and let's put together an appropriate meal plan. Maybe we do need to substitute some better options, but let's mathematically look up what that means, the language of nutrition being this numerical attachment of energy balance. And that was mind-blowing to these clients and they loved it, especially because we were doing that together. So they could then go home and say, wow, if this is what I eat for this snack, what's an equivalency I could use in a different food if I get bored or I just don't have that food? And so they would instantly get in that groove of tracking macros. For the purpose of freedom, I can eat what I want as long as I know what energy value it's giving me.

Philip Pape: 8:05

So there's an education and skill component and the idea that you stumbled into this. It's funny because probably many of us can relate, even in our own lives stumbling across things. Hopefully it's easier now with podcasts and books and whatnot. But I tried tracking macros two or three times over the 20 years I did diets and it wasn't until the third time where I did it, while also, you know, coming across Eric Helms and the muscle and strength pyramids and the recent research on flexible dieting and kind of almost got lucky. I'm grateful that I finally saw oh, now I understand how this all connects and now I'm immersed in that world and you're talking about before we had the internet, before we had a database.

Philip Pape: 8:45

It sounds like a hard work. Maybe it's what Weight Watchers capitalized on with the point system later on. What is the history in the evidence of rigid versus flexible dieting? My understanding is it really took off in the 90s, but how did that get us to today? Even the term flexible dieting, which is misunderstood as either if it's your macros or just general flexibility how does that all bring us to today, I guess?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 9:44

It's actually very recent. I can only now find research that investigates the phrasing flexible dieting or macronutrient tracking up to about the last eight to 10 years. Up to about the last eight to 10 years, which makes sense because as I was doing what I was doing, it wasn't like it was on the cover of Time Magazine or on CNN every night. It took a while for that to take off and then become more of the normalized version. So, especially when social media came around about 20 years ago, now more people are doing that and we now have an entire generation of exercise scientists and nutrition academics who grew up, as you like, looking at this as a more normalized version of how we even understand nutrition, and now they are backtracking, saying wait a second, this actually hasn't been tested, it hasn't been evaluated or researched in all the ways we should, so there is a massive amount just coming out. So it's really kind of a beginning phase, I think, of the research you're going to see proliferate a lot in the next couple decades.

Philip Pape: 10:49

Yeah, it's very exciting. You know, talking to guys like Bill Campbell and Alan Aragon, you know, even they give you a sense of what we still don't know and what we don't know we don't know in the field and a lot of it is trial and error and you know, you and I work with clients, and those listening to the show know that there's often 20 paths to the same solution and that's part of the flexibility and sustainability. Just the other day I onboarded a client who's like I just want to have the exact same calories every day. It reduces stress for me. And then another client will say I need more calories on the weekend. That reduces stress, right, so exactly exactly.

Philip Pape: 11:24

So you know, I've heard you talk about, like, the levels of precision, the levels of not perfections, so to speak, but there's a dichotomy there. And then, like, are we using data to just improve this skillset, improve this education, versus looking at it as failure? Right, there's a big mindset piece. So can you kind of explain that, the failure versus data, the precision versus perfection, and then how that relates to what we're ultimately trying to get here was just something sustainable that works for us.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 11:52

Everything you just said there, if we combine it, I think has all the answers in that.

Philip Pape: 11:57

Okay, we're good, we're done Well not just you.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 12:01

Me and other people in our industry know what we don't know, and we don't know that there are, or we know there are, things we don't know. Clients are very myopically blinded by this. Is this is the only step I can see, like whatever you're telling them to do, and they don't think they can do it. That's as far as they go. So what am I going to eat tomorrow? And that's why they ask for the security of a meal plan, or just tell me exactly what to eat. I need to eat the same thing every day to make it easier. And then, as soon as they break through that barrier, then they can see the next step, and that's going to probably elicit the need for a little more flexibility. Oh, I didn't consider that on Tuesdays I have to take my kids soccer practice, and oh, friday I have this employee meeting and I can't eat my normal breakfast, and so then they have to start creating and crafting different types of strategies. So they will always, for a long time, think of failure as a looming threat. What if I can't do it? This is what I'm supposed to do. What if I can't do it? Then they get through that step and they think of another pitfall that they might encounter. And so it is the goal of a coach. It should be the goal of a coach to show them that, look, there is no such thing as ultimate failure here. It's data and it's learning, and maybe we don't have our best day. We learn from that. We have a better day tomorrow. Is this week a better week than last week? Did we do better this month than we did last month? Even getting down to the unit of a day as well? If I hit my macros today, that was success. Well, what if you didn't? Does that mean the whole week was any worse than last week? So I think we are constantly going to be reminding clients through their entire process that you know, don't think about failure. Don't think about failure. Don't think about failure. Just think about learning and experience and progress.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 13:55

Because ultimately, philip, you know, we track macros, we learn that language of nutrition so that it doesn't have to be so cumbersome later. I do not track macros now. I do not physically enter into an app or a spreadsheet because I just don't have to. I know what I'm eating, I know what's in the food I'm eating. I know the quantities I'm eating. I know how long ago my food I'm eating, I know the quantities I'm eating, I know how long ago my last meal was, when my next meal will be. All of that stuff is just subconscious to me now, and when I need it to be a little bit more top of mind, then I can access that. But again, a client just starting. None of that stuff even makes sense. They don't know what they don't know, and so we have to be the guides that successfully, happily, take them from one step to the next.

Philip Pape: 14:44

Yeah, it's a great way to put it, because people do want the answer they want, like how do I do this? Give it to me. And what you're saying is there's this baseline that looks like rigidity that people come from, due to society, due to years and years of diets. Failure is this threat that's always there around the corner, but the progress we make is by shifting that slowly, with these strategies, which may require a coach or someone else to kind of give you the possibilities, right, because people just don't always know, and then eventually it becomes intuitive. You mentioned the word better and I want to poke at that a bit, because you'll often hear somebody say, like I'll hear this in a check-in you know I didn't do good or I could do better, or I did better. What are your thoughts on that? How do you define better? Is better being more able to take the data and make informed decisions, or is it actually hitting targets more accurately? Like what? What is better to you?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 15:37

Well, chronologically, again, it kind of depends on what that client is working toward. Um, I want to see objectivity become somewhat integrated. You use the words in the introduction being aligned with your goals, and so initially, you know, if I'm working with my grandson on learning the alphabet, you know we kind of have to learn the basics. Like we really need to focus on how to draw those letters, what order they're in, like there's a system and we just repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. We get those reps in to learn, then you can use those letters any way you want, you can create a Shakespearean play. Now you have ultimate freedom.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 16:19

But it took a shit ton of rote work and repetition just to get there. So for some clients, yes, it's, it's, let's practice on content, meaning you know the quantity and so forth, and uh, let's start interceptively trying to match what your body's telling you. There's intuition, right. Can you really tell what your blood sugar is? Uh, you know how empty your stomach is, like like those kinds of things Can you try to quantify, even though you can't measure them completely objectively. And we get down the line where you're improving your health, you're improving the body composition levels that you want, and yet you're also integrating it into real life with a sense of ease. We don't want this to add stress to you. We want it to relax the levels of stress to you. So I think all of those things are happening simultaneously, but again a client's really going to be focusing on what they need for that step that they're on.

Philip Pape: 17:19

I know why you're such a great coach because you're putting me at ease with the way you take us on this journey to a more relaxed state of living, which is what we want. I think people you know a guy like me is obsessed with numbers and can get neurotic about things, and I very much identify with that archetype, and so when you can get to the point where it's just life, I think that could be awesome. You said a few things I want to mention. You said I want to see objectivity become more integrated. That's beautiful because it is a very emotionally driven thing food right, emotion, then tied to the emotion of body image, then tied to the emotion of like all the expectations we have and others have for us, maybe with our health. So making it more objective, even if objective means tracking something about yourself subjectively, but in a way that gives you awareness that didn't exist before, you know. You mentioned a bunch of different aspects of biofeedback. You also mentioned because so we homeschool our kids and they pretty much love all their subjects. But you mentioned the alphabet and I was thinking math, a similar thing where there's always this pushback against memorizing your times tables right, but that builds a foundation for making arithmetic easy.

Philip Pape: 18:27

And then, once you learn arithmetic, algebra is easy. And then, once you learn arithmetic, algebra is easy. And then algebra makes calculus easy. I know, not for everybody is people are like what? But I love math. So I think people need to understand that there's an element of patience required, but you can get to a point where you've got this mad skill, these mad nunchuck skills. If you remember Napoleon Bonaparte and I've been through that man like I had no clue what I was doing for decades and now it's like yeah, I have confidence, right? Isn't that what we want, joe? Like just clarity and confidence.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 18:54

I absolutely used a bunch of the phrases you just described with a couple of client conversations yesterday. Well, one is with a client who is the ultimate perfectionist, you know, high in neuroticism, and I had to say, look, man, I get it Like I want that standard to be high, I want you to achieve all your goals, but we need some patience as well. You are, you are a bag of biology and that's not linear, like it's not going to happen every day Like you want it to. You have to contend with a lot of things neurologically, physiologically, and so take a breath, let's calm down. Let's look at the long picture here, the long term.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 19:31

But another client you were talking about just having confidence in that word is so important. Can you just have the confidence that you're doing enough things well, that you're still making progress? One of those 10 variables you may think just wasn't up to snuff yesterday or last week, but that's okay, we're doing other things. We can backtrack and work on that as well. So, yeah, I really think that's a great way to. You're not an expert or you wouldn't be submitting yourselves to our care and our guidance and our support. So how long would it take you to learn a foreign language. How long would it take you to learn a musical instrument? Let's give this a little time and let's build this process so that, a year from now, you never have to worry about it again.

Philip Pape: 20:25

Yeah, and even if you know the saxophone, the clarinet might be hard. I mean my I'm trying to help my daughter with a clarinet and I'm a sax player and it's like YouTube, like I don't know the finger. So people, just again having some grace with yourself that you may be good in one thing and then others need help and so reach out for help for that client you mentioned, who's also a bit neurotic about hitting exact targets. Let's get to specifics about macros, for example. Would you use ranges? Would you use minimums? What would be a good stepping stone approach you might take with somebody like that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 20:56

I've always used ranges I mean from 30 years ago forward simply because, again, a daily metric is not totally necessary If I'm 10 or 15 grams over in this or 20 grams under on this. First of all, the energy exchange may be perfectly fine. Two, we don't know what your energy expenditure is every single day and it just may come out in the wash right. Your net weekly averages, I think, are more important than one particular day, and that also is feedback and data. You know, if we see that you're consistently over here or under there, let's see if there's a way to move the goalposts to fit better, what you naturally might need. You know not what I subjectively assessed. So there's a lot that goes into just creating a system of boundaries and then observing what's happening and then starting to fine tune and maybe tightening up those ranges a little bit.

Philip Pape: 21:56

But I think there always has to be an element of range versus just super specific numerical goals goals, yeah, yeah, I've always wondered about that, because even I suspect that even with if the range is too tight you mentioned the tightening of the range of even if it's too tight that could almost be just as restrictive as a number itself. One thing I found it in I'm sure you've experienced this with a client who, well, let me ask you as a question, would you ever go with something more, let's say, aggressive? So let's say, somebody wants to do fat loss and you set them into, you know, a slightly larger deficit, knowing that if they aren't even close to the targets, they're still going to be in a deficit? Or would you rather, right off the bat, go precisely after the glide path you want? Do you know what I'm saying?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 22:42

Yeah, um. So it's interesting because when I am mentoring coaches, speaking of rigidity, most new coaches come from this just highly fundamentalism type approach. Like this is what I'm going to do with my clients, and they're going to do it this way, and you know, I need to really rein them in and tell them to sit back and look at each client as an individual who might need a different type of journey, client as an individual who might need a different type of journey, and so one of the things that I do, especially in our NAMS certification coach coaching program, is teach coaches that a client who comes to us wants results and they're excited, they're motivated, like all of that is very front loaded, and so they're probably going to make a lot of higher quality decisions. They're going to eat more energy, dense foods, healthier foods, and so, instead of falling into the trap of pop culture levels of food, like everybody needs to eat as much as they possibly can and I don't want to make my clients feel bad. So even a female who may be 60 years old and a hundred pounds overweight, I'm going to give her 300 grams of carbs and 70 grams of fat. They're just.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 23:52

You're probably going to put them in a position where they're very frustrated. They're not losing weight. Two or three weeks down the line, they've hired you and now you're going to take food away Like that's like they're already upset and now you're penalizing them. Like they're already upset and now you're penalizing them. So when I'm working with a new client, I definitely want to get out of the gate strong, because physiologically they're probably going to feel better regardless of what we do. And then, after a really good launch, they're going to get, instead of punished, rewarded by saying wow, we need to actually increase your food a little bit Now. They feel like rock stars. So the process we do things as coaches and for ourselves, I think matters a lot. So you know I don't know if that answers your.

Philip Pape: 24:36

Yeah, no, it does. It's one of a million permutations of you know how do you handle a client situation? And I only bring this up because, again, when I work with clients, these pop up and I'm like I'm talking to Joe. This week I got to ask him, you know, because I've seen clients who they're in an intended deficit and then they're overshooting on their calories but they're still in a deficit and making tons of progress and it's like that's a huge win. Like before you were struggling to make progress, now you're not and, like you said, maybe it's now learning about that and just tightening it up, like, hey, you could even make more progress potentially. Or we titrate you back to a less aggressive rate now that you've gotten that quick win, like you said, out of the gate.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 25:14

Well, if I could offer Philip another way of looking at this is sometimes clients come to us now with a lot more sophistication. They've probably gone through a few programs, They've tracked macros before. So most clients are coming to us with a lot more knowledge than perhaps they would have 10 or 20 years ago, and along with that comes their own level of confidence that I know what I need. And so that often leads to a little friction with a coach. And so, for example, I had a client just maybe about a month or two start with me just a month or two ago and he said I don't want to track macros. So he had already kind of hit that approach and just thought it's too tedious, monotonous. I'm not an accountant, I don't dig that kind of stuff. So I said, sure, let's just work on habit-based stuff. I'm willing to meet any client where they are, I'm willing to meet any client where they are. And so he was working on these things, these habits, everything was going great.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 26:09

And over the course of his first month he gained about five or six pounds. He was like wait a second, I'm eating better, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. And I said well, you know, I mean, your body doesn't make body fat out of thin air, like we are dealing with very finite energy balance quantities. Problem is you're just not aware of what they are, because you decided you wanted an intuitive approach, maybe because you've tracked some macros in the past and you at least have that foundation. We just simply need a little bit of an auditing period, a little bit of regrouping. So I would bet if we track your macros for a couple of weeks, just so you can establish the meals and the meal quantities and the food sources that you want, then you wouldn't have to track anymore because you already know how to do that. And of course, boom. His next month, you know he lost that five or six pounds and more.

Philip Pape: 26:58

Did he stop tracking after that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 27:00

We're in that phase now. We're, we're still, we're kind of entering the end of that and we'll see, we'll, we'll. You know, maybe it kind of goes on autopilot or maybe he keeps tracking uh, you know, we'll.

Philip Pape: 27:12

We'll see where he wants to go with his own personal journey here. Sure Cause, sometimes you know the thing that's giving you the result you're like, hmm, maybe I'm going to keep doing this for a while. So another angle when it comes to that is people think of the terms counting calories right, and weighing all your food you know, sometimes put into derogatory context and how it can potentially lead to an unhealthy relationship with food. What, what is the reality on that? I mean, what does both the evidence say and your experience say on tracking tied to obsessiveness or, you know, your relationship with food?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 27:41

So you use the word archetype a few minutes ago and I did one of my master's theses in personality psychology and so I'm very familiar with all the different ways of assessing it and just the way people think and information flows through our brains, and I think, to be honest, that just comes down to a person's personality type. Sometimes it's all about the food, sometimes it has nothing to do with the food, and so these are conversations we're not all equipped to have with a lot of depth with clients. I'm not going to psychoanalyze a client and tell them what they need and what they don't need, but I'm going to certainly suggest that there are possibilities that you know. Maybe we do need to focus on the mechanics of this food, maybe we need a little more structure, maybe we need a little more flexibility, or maybe this has nothing to do with the food and like we're really dealing with some impulsiveness. Uh, we're dealing with, uh, just a lack of time, like you just don't have the bandwidth to really focus on this.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 28:40

You have so many other things going on in your life. There are myriad reasons why somebody may be struggling and feel like food is becoming too obsessive. You know, binge eating, of course, is a huge deal and a lot of people who come to nutrition coaches have that already as a backdrop. And we are the next stop in a long chain of ways to struggle with something they feel is very out of control. And you're the coach coming along thinking you have all the answers and the perfect process and system, and this person is literally drowning in psychological issues that have nothing to do with the food. They're just dragging food into that system. So, again, a lot of things for coaches to be aware of and know our scope of practice and how we can help clients become aware of how they might need some other resources besides us. But we certainly have to be good enough to recognize when it is and when it isn't about the food.

Jerry: 29:41

I just wanted to give a shout out to Phillip. I personally worked with Phillip for about eight months and I lost a total of 33 pounds of scale weight and about five inches off my waist. Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one. He's really taken the time to develop a deep expertise in nutrition and also resistance training, so he has that depth.

Jerry: 30:03

If you want to go deep on the lies with Philip, but if also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do, you can pull back and communicate at that level. Also, he is a lifter himself, so he's very familiar with the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Philip is trained in engineering, so he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient and you can really track your results and you will have real data when you're done working with Philip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you. Philip, like all good coaches, has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, philip.

Philip Pape: 30:55

I'm glad you mentioned scope of practice. If you hadn't, I would have mentioned that as well. Whether you're a coach listening or a client that not every coach might be right for you to be able to go into the depth you need. Or if you need mental health care or something like that. I know I've referred clients to a friend of mine who's actually a hypnotherapist, but he used to be in kind of a nutrition coach for years as well. So straddles both sides of it. I was thinking of the movie Stuts on Netflix. You ever seen that?

Philip Pape: 31:21

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I bring it up all the time because I think that's a great example where the therapist helps the client process through and kind of move forward and use tools, very much like you were talking about just using tools and structure and kind of getting objective about it to see if that helps the client process through, even without necessarily uncovering the trauma or going back into childhood. If they need that, they need that. But is that a good parallel, do you think?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 31:54

Yes, and Phil Stutz. If you read his book he even goes into more detail. The etiology of his practice theory is why are we just sitting here going through all of this stuff and psychoanalyzing? And then the patient is just left feeling like, am I ever going to get any help? And he said I knew as a psychiatrist I needed every single patient to leave my office every single session feeling like they have some good work to do and some light at the end of the tunnel. They have something they can improve and work on right now, and that is a perfect parallel to nutrition.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 32:23

What is our goal right now? Sometimes it is just to reframe our thoughts around food. We don't have to lose weight. We don't have to make sure we're staying in a state of lipolysis and so forth If that is not going to matter for the longterm. If what you need right now is something a little bit more esoteric, then that's what we have to focus on and that's that's why I love the way you said. You said you have to understand whether a coach is right for you or not. There is so much that goes into a coach's skills being able to meet what you need at this moment in your health history and your health journey.

Philip Pape: 33:01

You know how to make a guy feel warm and fuzzy, joe, with all your compliments, so thank you. But I do think you're absolutely right with the goal of reframing, is sometimes what you get out of it, and it's so underrated because this isn't about. It really isn't about macros. For the most part it's how you look at things, and there's somebody in my coaching group who calls me the positivity bully because almost inevitably her thing is just the way. She says something, let's reframe it and aha, everything just gets unlocked. And if we could do that with ourselves, that could be powerful. What about you? What do you suggest to the listener? Joe is a valuable tool when it comes to reframing. Um.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 33:41

I think this is where it helps just have the support that we can offer. Uh, one of my clients mentioned to me just this week like I would pay you just to be my friend, like if we ever get through all of my goals and all this stuff, like, will you please never leave me, I will pay you, even if we're just friends and you know, talk about a compliment, right, because that person is articulating that I find your support as valuable as the mechanistic things that we're working through and for part of our work together. That is the most important part. Isn't it funny, philip, that we're teaching people to use third grade math as it relates to nutrition? And we know a calorie isn't just a calorie quote unquote but it kind of is.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 34:28

And so a lot of the skills and the progress we're teaching is how we can get all of this to line up and work in real life, as we agreed earlier, with some ease as it becomes second nature. And so some of the psychological aspects, behavioral things, maybe, our social circumstances, family life and so forth, it all changes and it's all this ball of dynamic chaos that we can't always control, but it sure helps to have a coach who can help you organize it for your end goals, for you to get there and then learn how to manage it yourself. If it were just as easy as watching a YouTube video and learning a single skill okay, you know, there's the ballgame. You don't need anything else, you've got the video. That's never going to happen, you know. A good coach is valuable in that way.

Philip Pape: 35:18

Yeah, I totally agree. I used to do a lot of how-to episodes that were very long and people would still have questions, because there are a million exceptions to every rule. And you said dynamic chaos, that's life. And if anyone listening is like, well, but this thing happens to me. Just know that that is the default for everyone. Like things are going to happen literally every day that we can't expect. So, given that, joe, what would you say? You've worked with a lot of high-level athletes, bodybuilders I mean, you've seen the whole spectrum of people. Is there a toolbox you have of I'll call them default strategies? Let's say that you can start with like nonlinear dieting approaches or calorie cycling, refeed, diet breaks, like kind of how do you put that all together? We don't have to get into super nitty gritty, but is there a set of strategies that people can start from when they personalize things, knowing that their schedule, their lifestyle, could be anywhere?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 36:10

I definitely like to start with a high level of structure, as I mentioned, and even if that's just one step so if I am onboarding a client, as you said earlier, and even if they are super intelligent, they know exactly where we're heading I'll say, okay, let's look at the foods you like, your schedule, this, that let's look at the macronutrient energy balance goals we have and let's put this together as a single step. And then how are we going to move forward from that? And I will say, philip, I try to play the subjective and objective parallels together. I'm certainly assessing objective data, I'm looking at progress and so forth, as I'm interviewing them and assessing subjective input, and so I need them to see both as well. You mentioned that I work with high-level athletes, and so I'll mention you know, having worked with NFL football players and being basketball players and so forth, Olympic athletes even. Even you know there's a lot, a lot of risk. I mean, they, they, they have goals that are very high level goals and they need things to work extremely well, and I'm part of their coaching team doing one thing specifically, and so I have to make sure they're getting the absolute, most accurate, concise, best information, because they are going to follow it, like they are so incentivized, best information, because they are going to follow it. Like they are so incentivized, motivated, they are going to follow it.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 37:33

So I start with that same mentality with any clients of any level, knowing that this is this is how I'm going to perceive it.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 37:42

If I'm a neurosurgeon, I'm not doing my best work only for this client because I think their value is different than this patient's value, but at the same time now I start reading their input, their level of interest, what they need to work on. There's a constant assessment. So my toolbox and my default strategies are always just I'm going in here ethically looking at what can I do, and that starts with my own level of time commitment. There was a day speaking of 20, 30 years ago, before smartphones existed and you could message on 50 different apps and so forth, where communication was fewer and far between, and so there's just no excuse today for a coach not to be giving super high level service and communication, and so I think that that is the crux of it. Any default strategy, anything I'm pulling out of my toolbox, is going to be for that context, when that client needs it, and it's my job to constantly read that situation with them and communicate through it.

Philip Pape: 38:49

Yeah, and it's, would you say.

Philip Pape: 38:51

It's rewarding too when you realize that, although everyone can have kind of this starting point based on their numbers, based on their objective data, when you really get into it with the conversations and this is where listeners, you know, I always encourage you to to talk to someone you know, like have that support, whether it is a coach or community or another person going through this there's something different about you, there's something going on, there's something that you need help with, and sometimes it's little right, joe, it's like I have a client who does everything, but her fiber was a bit low and she was having some gut issues, right.

Philip Pape: 39:22

So it's like, okay, there's the thing, but it may not have been obvious just from putting you on this objective plan or using this single one size fits all. So, all right. What do you think of people going it alone? And it's kind of the opposite of that. When people try to go alone, if they're, let's say, very self-motivated, they listen to your podcast, my podcast, so they know all the right things, and they're like I'm going to do this. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 39:46

Well, I'm all for it because I do that myself. I changed my son's brakes with him in our driveway, with a YouTube video. The problem is it took three trips to the auto store and 12 hours and we still didn't do it very well, where I could have just taken it in and spent probably the same amount of money and had it done in an hour. But I'm all for it. Like I love the experience part. I love that people are trying to save a little money or be independent. It's just that you have to decide what level you want to play at, and so you know, if you run into snags, then a coach may be helpful.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 40:23

We don't know what we don't know. So those are the kinds of things your clients who may have had some GI issues and would not have maybe stumbled across the information that he or she needed a little extra fiber. Or should it be soluble versus insoluble? Should I experiment with this? Maybe I need a probiotic? Um, so you know, when you have an expert at your side, it's going to be a little bit more efficient. Uh, but I I cannot complain about people who love to, you know, engage in a little DIY. That's, that's certainly what I like.

Philip Pape: 40:52

I hear you, man, I'm right there too and and have also hit the wall. Or you know, when we built our house, how many times I had to go to Home Depot Cause I forgot one little part. You know, like geez, the amount of gas I'm spending was probably worth hiring somebody. All right, cool. So we we've had a lot on psychology. I do want to dive in a couple detailed areas that people are always interested. One of these is hard gaining people that are struggling to build muscle. What, what's your, what are your top strategies when you see this, and just to give you context, I don't want to label somebody as a hard gainer by default, cause that's like a, you know, a fixed growth kind of thing. It's more of um, I like to use a hard gainer phase, or you're experiencing a hard gaining phase during your gaining phase.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 41:39

What are your top strategies for that? Again, interesting timing, because I was just messaging a client who think we're up to four or 5,000 calories and really pushing to try to gain some muscle, and as a just pure ectomorph he has some great advantages, but that becomes a job. I mean, that is tough. How do you squeeze in more food when you're already eating that much every two to three hours? And so it becomes somewhat strategic. You know, we're of course working on calorie density, but with whole foods and high quality foods that becomes an absolute volume game game. So what is your threshold for? Maybe simple sugars, liquid calories? We want, you know, some fat for density, but how much saturated fat is good for you or not? So again, I mean a lot of, a lot of experimentation, a lot of talking through scheduling and food source availability.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 42:29

One of my clients who is a competitor in a very controlled off season and she wants to, you know, maintain her weight only six, seven, eight pounds above contest weight, which is appropriate for her next goal, and her baseline food intake is already really, really high, really good, you know she's at 250 or so grams of carbs, 70 grams of fat, and so if we want to try to push for just a little more hypertrophy, just a little bit more body mass gain, without it being body fat.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 43:00

Do we just add an extra 20 grams of carbs, an extra a hundred calories a day? I told her let's be really strategic, let's put this where it matters the most pre-workout, post-workout what days do you really feel hungry? Because you may just have a little bit more non-exercise activity? And so it's not just sometimes blanketly adding calories, it's being very, very strategic with those. So for a hard gainer, of course, as I just mentioned, it's going to be pre and post-workout how do we fuel the best workouts and how do we get the most absolute recovery we can? And that's going to be probably a lot of food around those major heavy, compound exercise days.

Philip Pape: 43:39

Yeah, love that. So both the calorie density. But now you have to watch out for trade-offs between calorie density and like how much processed foods or liquid foods or fat, because fat has saturated fat. Yeah, you're right, there's, there's difficulties that people don't always appreciate. And then strategically aligning that with your schedule, your training, because at the end of the day, we're trying to get the most out of our training here, right? So, okay, love that. What about carbs? Because you mentioned carbs multiple times and of course, there's always been debate about the role of carbs and muscle building in performance and people cherry pick the studies. You know you got the keto crowd saying, no, you can be super jack, build tons of muscle, and keto Others are like, no, here are the studies on bodybuilders that you build like five times as much muscle when you have moderate to high carbs. So what's your, what's your take on that?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 44:22

I mean exactly what you just said. The studies are pretty clear. So you know, first of all, on protein intake, there's a minimum threshold and there's a maximum, and so the Protein Summit a council that has met a few times has very conclusively, with all of their experts from around the world in multidisciplinary fields, have shown that about two times the US RDA is the sweet spot, that's the peak of the bell curve and you can go up to maybe three times the RDA and there can be some value sometimes for some people. But beyond that you get, you get pretty minimal return and then if you're just adding more protein, you're taking away calories that could have come from from carbohydrates, which are more protein sparing and more metabolic and more anabolic. So, incidentally, you know that particular, you know, think of that group as almost walking meta-analysis, all of these people from different disciplines doing this research and coming together. When you do single study experiments on the same subject, they get the same results. It's like, oh yeah, they're right.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 45:29

About two times the RDA is kind of the max, which is somewhat surprising for bodybuilders and some athletes who can consume more protein, but for, you know, maybe the general population, that's also a step almost too far out of you know need and so maybe for them 1.25 or 1.5 times the RDA is enough. They don't have muscle building goals. Their body fat levels are never going to reach those you know dangerously catabolic levels. So yeah, I mean, even even in aging populations, where we we really do need higher protein levels and maybe three times the RDA, is helpful. It's not like we're going to die if we don't get that every single day. So depends on your goals, depends on your status metabolically. But you're, you're just, you're going to, you're going to find those answers If you're willing to do some body comp analysis. You know, get, get on a stycu or an InBody or a DEXA scan and do a little tracking over a year or two and you'll, you'll probably find what's right for you.

Philip Pape: 46:30

So you you basically answered the question about carbs from the anchor of protein, right Is what we're getting at, which is which is very interesting, because that's that's again we. We work similarly, where you start with protein and then you build the fats and carbs from there. Um, just a little more on the carbs, just so people know what are you giving up if you are lower carb while in a gaining phase? So you know what I mean If you're down at 100 or you know kind of keto world or low carb world.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 46:58

Well, once you have consumed the minimum amount of protein necessary for your goals, which would be to gain muscle, you're out of that negative energy balance. Your blood nitrogen levels are positive most of the time. Then there's a small margin to get up to maximum utilization. So here's minimum threshold. Maximum utilization isn't that high. You go a step higher and now you're taking away potential calories from carbohydrates. More protein beyond what you can use isn't more anabolic, it's not more metabolic. But the carbs that you're giving up are and I know this isn't an exact, you know replica of science, but you said you know more carbs could be five times more anabolic. They certainly are a multiplier of more anabolism, you know, because, because insulin is often the the bad guy right. But insulin is what also drives growth. It's what drives nutrients into cells, including carbohydrates, glucose into muscle cells for glycogen, which then increases the ability to synthesize protein to actually build more muscle.

Philip Pape: 48:06

Just wanted to set the record straight for all the people. And, by the way, that protein council all I could think of was like Lord of the Rings, when they're at the waterfall and they're all having the big council. Here's how much protein we need to eat, guys.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 48:17

Okay, definitive, pretty definitive.

Philip Pape: 48:19

No, for sure, For sure. It's pretty clear cut. So on the opposite end, when we're in a cut, the calorie deficits and calories have to be fairly low. How do you approach macro trade-offs, cause that's kind of what we were talking about there. For example, is there ever a case where we want to lower the protein even further to allow for more carbs or even fats?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 48:41

Possibly if you are at a level that's just needlessly high. And I'll give you a good example Sometimes it's more the endomorph. If we could use the classic phenotyping heuristic for a minute. Because somebody who's got a slower metabolism, like I, am clinically hypothyroid. I have to take levothyroxine and so forth, and so even in my younger days those TSH levels were already borderline high, subclinical hypothyroid, and that just goes into my whole family history.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 49:12

I come from a family of pretty high obesity, which the benefit of that is you just don't churn through muscle tissue Like we have a lot of muscle but we also have a lot of body fat, different than an ectomorph. So often people who think well, I need fewer calories, I'm an endomorphic body type, so I better make sure my protein is higher to sustain lean body mass. You're going to sustain more lean body mass period. So if you are inching toward a ketogenic level of dieting and you're giving up a lot of carbs, then you may struggle with binge eating and you may just be suffering and hungrier. So you may be fine with two times the RDA of protein instead of three times the RDA of protein. So stay there, give yourself the carbs so that at least you have enough to make it meal to meal comfortably. You know the whole process of lipolysis and gluconeogenesis as your body is resynthesizing. You know from lipids. You know glucose for blood sugar, for immediate energy needs.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 50:18

When you're dieting sometimes it is just kind of surviving meal to meal. It's like I am really hungry. I ate two hours ago. I've only got an hour to go. You're watching the clock and if you are really really low in carbohydrates and you're just trying to suffer through long stretches of a day, it's just arduous to the point where those are the highest categories of people who fail. Studies on ketogenic dieting shows that is the highest failure rate possible. That is the diet that creates the most binge eating disorder. So that's the reason why you just you. You cannot live that low. You can I should say you can if you have to, but it's in a space where you have the food availability. You're going to reach for the carbs when the chips are down.

Philip Pape: 51:05

I mean, if you, if I didn't have my bagel before this podcast, Joe, you'd be like this is a different person. There you go. No, I had a bagel, this morning too.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 51:11

This is a different person. There you go Now.

Philip Pape: 51:13

I had a bagel this morning too Bagels, man, so good yeah, the and I'm in a fat loss phase guys, so so keto creating the highest failure rate possible. That's good. I actually I don't think I came across that all my time bashing keto.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 51:24

So Several studies, several studies, one from Harvard, one from university of Toronto.

Philip Pape: 51:28

Okay, that that's. That's good. And then you said you know there's some of the psychological or the craving impacts of just being low carb, which is, again, important. It's not just about do you have enough for your recovery and this, and that it's also or you can even stay on your diet or you can even adhere, which is important. What about? Um, how does someone you mentioned body types how does somebody isolate or understand that, their individual response to these different macro levels? Or are we overthinking it? Am I overthinking it Like if somebody should be higher fat or should be higher carb, leaving protein aside for a second?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 51:58

You know it's interesting because a lot of people do want direct answers to questions like this, and there's been some debate over is is there even this? Is this phenotyping, even a thing is, or is it just more of a continuum? And and I think it truly is more of a continuum, and so you can kind of plot yourself along that line and just experientially see how you respond. But this is where a whole nother phase of a conversation could take us, which is experiment is necessary as a coach with a client or just somebody trying to lose weight and learn about your own physiology. You'll never know if you don't experiment. I've done entire phases of ketogenic dieting because I want to see what it's like. I've done self-vegetarian experiments two times, one for a master's thesis, because I wanted to experience that, and so I think it's really, really important to see how far you can stretch, see how you feel. Maybe do blood labs to confirm certain data points. But yeah, just some self-discovery.

Philip Pape: 53:02

Totally on board Rapid prototyping change one variable and see how it goes. I think elimination diets fall under that regime for some people who aren't sure where their trigger foods are, and I like the idea of just you'll never know otherwise. I mean even a single data point, like you'll never know if you get that fifth rep of the squat unless you just try for the fifth rep of that squat, right? So love that kind of choosing hard mentality, if you want to put it that way. Some people don't like that idea, but that's really what it is. It's just going after it and getting the data. All right.

Philip Pape: 53:35

I had so many questions for you, but I know we're getting close on time here. Metabolic adaptation I don't know we talk so much about it, but a lot of people get frustrated when their weight loss stalls and their fat loss stalls and we know that it exists, we know that it's typical for your metabolism to drop and your expenditure to drop. What are the main reasons for that? Is it just a loss of weight? Is it the hormonal response, or is there something else going on?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 53:59

It's both. But the first thing you said is most important. It's normal and your body's way more resilient than you think. So if there's one horrible, evil, absolute myth that needs to die in our diet culture is that you can break your metabolism, you can damage your metabolism, that you need to eat more to lose weight, which is completely counterintuitive and just unfactual. But people believe those things because they hear them repeated, and so you have to realize that the amount of food that it takes you to not be gaining weight just to sustain your weight is more than just the 500-calorie-a-day deficit to lose one pound a week that we think, because that gets you that first step. You go through the stored glycogen in your body, you get into lipolysis and now your body instantly starts adapting. You instantly start to reduce the level of energy that you were using to sustain your weight. So you almost have to then go through another secondary little drop in calories if you didn't account for enough in the first place. But then you're pretty, almost physiologically stoically stable for quite a while until you start reaching your metabolic set point, and then you're exactly right.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 55:19

Two things are happening. If your body weight drops by 20 pounds, the amount of energy it takes your muscular system, your cardiovascular system, to sustain. Your life is simply less. As you become healthier and your heart rate goes down, your VO2 max goes up, you're becoming more energy efficient. You require fewer calories.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 55:40

It is completely counterintuitive to what people think. If I'm lean and healthy, then I'll be a raging furnace, my metabolism will be so high. No, that's when your metabolism will be the lowest. Ever is when you're. You are your healthiest, most efficient, and guess what? That extends life. That's what longevity is when you have a slower heart rate. Slower metabolism. Metabolism is the speed at which life and and turnover is occurring. You want a slower metabolism. Trust me, you want that. But the good news is that your body adapts to that through your hunger levels. Your hypothalamus is not cuing you for more hunger if you don't need that. You know that energy. So it it's all very, very equated and you don't have to worry about it as much as you think yeah, you mentioned the being lean thinking you'll be a raging inferno.

Philip Pape: 56:35

I think it ties in a little bit with the misunderstanding of how many more calories you burn with muscle mass, cause I know people think one of the claims is just add muscle mass and you'll burn a ton more calories, and the reality is it's a little bit more. Right, it's a little bit more. But I do tell people, hey, when you have those extra bounds of muscle, you could probably walk around a little heavier and then you'll burn some more calories, kind of being that nice sweet spot of leanness but not too, not like skinny fat.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 57:01

Yeah, I mean, you and I are sitting right now having this chat, so we're probably burning 50 to 75 calories an hour and we have 70, 80 pounds of muscle on our frames. Each one extra pound of muscle how many calories do you really think per hour that gives you, as as this, you know, added metabolic machinery. It's so fractional.

Philip Pape: 57:23

I think it's six to nine to be precise, right? Something like that. Yeah, I mean yeah, If it can be as jacked as you and add 40 pounds of muscle, you know that starts to have some impact.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 57:32

Well, so there's another thing. I mean. I hate to keep adding more layers to our conversation, but the amount of muscle we gain in gross volume is next to nothing. I mean truly, when you look at pro drug-free bodybuilders and you say, okay, here, here was their, their first year of training, here's their final year of training. 20 or 30 years later they look like they've gained unbelievable amounts of muscle. And you ask them what their weight was, and it's, it's oftentimes identical. You know, I've, I've done so many. You know, you know presentations with a PowerPoint comparison showing people that, and so again, you just it's. It's the wrong end of the horse to be looking at if you're just trying to add muscle, just so you can eat more.

Philip Pape: 58:15

Totally agree, totally agree. All right, joe, we've covered the gamut. We got through pretty much all the topics I wanted to talk about, but if there's any one thing that I didn't cover, is there a question you wish I had asked? And then, if so, what would your answer be?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 58:28

I'm going to give you a more direct compliment in that your proficiency in just articulating all of these scientific principles and topics is just unbelievable. You mentioned that I get interviewed quite a bit and I am obviously very honored to be in conversation with anybody who's serious about science communication. You are phenomenal, my friend. Your exactness and your understanding and your conversational tone is so good that I literally have nothing else I could add to this conversation.

Philip Pape: 59:00

Man. Joe, I needed to hear that. That's so nice when somebody compliments you, and I'm grateful for you doing this and saying that it means a lot to me. Thank you.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 59:08

Well, I appreciate the invitation.

Philip Pape: 59:10

I appreciate the invitation. Yeah, yeah, man, I'm going to keep following you, you know, to the end of time, because you are the godfather of flexible dieting and continue to put out amazing content and, likewise, being a clear communicator, which we need more of out there with what social media looks like right now. And so those listening to the podcast, I want them to follow you and find you wherever you want them to say hello. So where would that be?

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 59:31

My social media handles are always at Joe Klimczewski, and YouTube is where we really deposit most of our communication, our research reviews and podcasts.

Philip Pape: 59:46

So the Diet Doc on YouTube. The Diet Doc on YouTube and I'll put all the social media handles. Everyone, please follow, Say hello to Joe. I'm sure he'll say hi back and thanks again for coming on. I think we're going to have to do this again in the future.

Dr. Joe Klemczewski: 59:54

I hope so. Thank you, yeah All right, man Thanks.

Add THIS To Your Diet to Optimize Fat Loss, Energy, and More (Buffer Systems) | Ep 210

Does fat loss feel harder than it needs to be? Do you experience energy crashes throughout the day, maybe even constant hunger? What if I told you there's a simple addition to your diet that could solve most of these problems?

No, it's not protein... it's a nutrient that often overlooked yet found in many delicious foods.

Today, we're taking a concept from chemical engineering called buffer systems and showing you why this nutrient works the same way in your body. By adding this in, you can optimize your fat loss, stabilize your energy, and improve your overall health. 

In this episode, you'll learn:

• The five key ways THIS nutrient acts as a nutritional "buffer" in your diet

• Why increasing its intake could accelerate your fat loss efforts

• Practical tips for incorporating more of it into your meals

To get your free copy of the guide mentioned in the episode (with full lists of foods sorted by how much of this nutrient they contain)... join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email

Main Takeaways:

• One nutrient acts as a "buffer" to help maintain stability in nutrient absorption, energy levels, and digestion

• This nutrient stabilizes optimizes fat loss by mitigating hunger and spikes in blood sugar, thus avoiding late day energy crashes!

• You can set targets and track your intake of this nutrient using MacroFactor (try it for free with code WITSANDWEIGHT).

Related Episodes:

• Ep 177: How Anatomy Impacts Your Gut, Muscle Mass, Hormones, and Health with Justin Cottle

• The Hidden Brain in Your Gut Might Be Controlling Your Cravings with Dr. William Ferro | Ep 205

• Ep 151: The Surprising Link Between Gut Health, Fat Loss, and Body Composition with Josh Dech

Episode summary:

In today's fast-paced world, losing weight and maintaining a healthy diet can feel like a never-ending battle. Many people turn to complex diet plans and stringent calorie tracking, only to find themselves hungry and energy-depleted. But what if there was a simpler, more effective way to achieve your dietary goals? Enter dietary fiber—the often underestimated nutrient that can revolutionize your health and fat loss journey.

Dietary fiber is likened to a chemical engineering buffer system in this podcast episode, stabilizing your diet by preventing energy crashes and keeping hunger at bay. This analogy is apt, as fiber works to balance various aspects of your nutrition, much like a buffer stabilizes a chemical solution. While protein often takes center stage in diet discussions, this episode argues that for many people, fiber might be the unsung hero, especially when it comes to managing hunger during a calorie deficit.

One of the primary benefits of dietary fiber is its ability to stabilize blood sugar levels. When you consume fiber-rich foods like fruits and vegetables, the digestion of carbohydrates slows down, leading to a more gradual release of glucose into the bloodstream. This helps prevent the rapid spikes and crashes in blood sugar that can leave you feeling tired and irritable. By maintaining steady energy levels throughout the day, you can avoid those dreaded afternoon slumps and stay more productive.

In addition to stabilizing blood sugar, fiber plays a crucial role in digestion. It promotes regular bowel movements and supports a healthy gut environment, preventing issues like constipation. A well-functioning digestive system is essential for overall wellness and can significantly impact how you feel daily. Moreover, fiber-rich foods often come packed with essential micronutrients, reducing the risk of malnutrition, especially during fat loss phases when calorie intake is reduced.

One of the standout points of this episode is the emphasis on the simplicity of a fiber-rich diet. Instead of meticulously tracking calories and macros, focusing on increasing your fiber intake can make a noticeable difference in achieving your dietary goals. Fiber adds bulk to your meals, helping you feel fuller for longer, which is particularly beneficial when you're trying to eat fewer calories. This satiety factor can reduce the likelihood of overeating and make sticking to your diet plan much easier.

Practical tips on integrating more fiber into your diet are also covered in the episode. Starting with your first meal of the day, you can incorporate fiber-rich foods like oatmeal, berries, and chia seeds. Snacks can include vegetables and fruits with the skin, which provide additional fiber and nutrients. For lunch and dinner, adding beans, lentils, and whole grains can further boost your fiber intake. These small dietary changes can lead to significant health improvements over time.

To make this transition even more manageable, the podcast offers a free fiber guide available through their email list. This guide provides a list of fermentable fibers and specific foods to help you effortlessly incorporate more fiber into your meals. Whether you're already following a disciplined fitness regimen or just starting your health journey, this guide can be a valuable resource.

The episode also touches on the broader health benefits of fiber. Regular fiber intake has been linked to improved insulin sensitivity, which, combined with strength training, can enhance how your body uses nutrients and aid in fat loss. Fiber's role in promoting a healthy gut microbiome is another critical aspect, contributing to better digestion and overall wellness.

In summary, this podcast episode sheds light on the transformative power of dietary fiber for fat loss and overall health. By acting as a stabilizing agent in your diet, fiber can prevent energy crashes, curb hunger, and improve digestion. The episode provides actionable insights and practical tips for integrating more fiber into your meals, making it easier to achieve your dietary goals. So, if you're struggling with weight loss or just looking to improve your health, focusing on fiber might be the simple yet effective solution you need.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Does fat loss feel harder than it needs to be? Do you experience energy crashes throughout the day, maybe even constant hunger? What if I told you there's a simple addition to your diet that could solve most of these problems? And it's not protein, but it's a nutrient that is often overlooked and is found in many, many delicious foods. Today, we're taking a concept from chemical engineering called buffer systems and explaining how your body works in that context and why this nutrient works the same way. By adding this in, you can optimize your fat loss, stabilize your energy and improve your overall health.

Philip Pape: 0:53

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're talking about a concept from chemical engineering that could transform your approach when it comes to your diet and your food. We're talking about buffer systems. I know it doesn't sound very exciting yet, but trust me, this is going to be a very cool analogy for how your body works and how this concept relates to a crucial component of your diet, a nutrient that many people are not getting enough of, and that is fiber. Yes, I know, fiber isn't the sexiest topic. I know, gut health isn't the sexiest topic, so what I'm trying to do today is link this all together and talk about all of the different benefits of fiber that you may not have even considered and why it could be the missing piece right now in your diet for things that you didn't realize had anything to do with fiber. And before we even get into that topic, I want to let you know about a guide that I have. It's a free guide tied to fiber. It actually gives you a list of fermentable foods, fermentable fibers. That will help with all of the things we're talking about today yes, gut health, but also everything else. And if you're struggling to figure out where do I get fiber from, how much fiber is in different types of foods and I even have it separated by the different compounds you definitely want this guide. All you have to do is join my email list, go to witsandweightscom slash email and then reply to the welcome email and say, hey, can you give me the fiber guide? I'll be happy to send it over. Just click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom. Slash email and then just ask me for my fiber guide, all right. So what we're talking about today is what are buffer systems, how they apply to nutrition and how does fiber act as a buffer in your diet? And before I even go there, I want to define what we mean by buffer and then, once we do, we'll see, it'll all make sense. And then I can talk about some of the tactical aspects of how much fiber, how to track it and how can you get more of it. And again, the guide that I just talked about will have a lot of details as to specific foods, but today I'm covering it at a high enough level so you get the big picture.

Philip Pape: 3:04

And many of us we approach the diet for fat loss with this all or nothing mentality. You know we're cutting calories effectively, that when I say all or nothing, it's usually from a calorie deficit perspective. Right, I need to go on a diet, so I need to cut out calories. Or I'm going to cut out entire food groups like carbs, or we go to some sort of extreme measure in terms of our aggressiveness with the diet, and then that leaves us feeling hungry, we're irritable, we're prone to energy crashes, and all of that is tied into concepts like hyperphasia and massive hunger and binging. And then the yo-yo dieting and all of that. What if, instead? Okay, what if, instead, instead of me telling you, okay, you just need to eat more protein, track your calories, track your macros which are all helpful tools what if there was a very, very simple thing, one thing that you could focus on that would create a lot more stability in your diet, a way to smooth out the energy peaks and the valleys, to control the hunger, to help you not feel deprived, so that you can then start to do those other things better. Kind of a backward approach I'm taking today, where, instead of telling you, track your calories, track your macros, track your this, and that I'm going to focus on one thing and I've already alluded to it, and that's fiber. Right, but I want to explain why that is so, so helpful, and we're going to try to make it sexy today. Okay, so you're like fiber's the new protein.

Philip Pape: 4:30

Everybody talks about getting more protein and yet if I were to split up my clients into two types one that didn't get enough fiber and one that got enough fiber, even when they're doing everything else their strength training they're getting their steps, maybe even they're hitting their macros and they're hitting their calories, but the fiber isn't there. Those that have enough fiber. They're checking off all the boxes. They're like, yeah, good digestion, hunger's fine. You know, I feel nice and full when I eat. I get to eat a lot of different foods, no issues with nutrients, no other weird things going on generally. That's not, you know, explained by something else. And then sort of check all the boxes and then when you look at the people who don't have enough fiber, um, and every time I onboard a new client, I would say 50% of the time they are far short on their fiber, and oftentimes these are people who are doing all the things. I love working with clients who are already lifting weights and already doing some of these and they're like there's something else happening here, and oftentimes it's just a lack of fiber, and you find that a lack of fiber leads to a lot of things that are otherwise prevented by that and you don't realize it.

Philip Pape: 5:35

So let's tie this to a concept in engineering Cause that's what these Wednesday episodes are for, and it's in chemical engineering, which is not my background, just so you know. But it's a simple concept called a buffer or a buffer system, and the point of a buffer is to maintain stability in a solution. Just think of a cup of water and you want it's either too acidic or too basic. You probably remember those terms from you know basic chemistry or high school or whatever. Ph balance, those kinds of things. You don't have to understand it, just go with me here. And a buffer works to keep that environment stable, even when external factors could disrupt it. Ah, so it's kind of like a concept of homeostasis in your body, but we're going to go ahead and apply buffer systems to nutrition to your food.

Philip Pape: 6:22

I want you to think of your diet. All the things you eat is this big chemical solution okay, a whole bunch of things that come together and in reality it is right Like chemical compounds, that's molecules. That's what food is made of, and there are a lot of factors that come into play when you eat your food Nutrient absorption, your energy levels, your digestion and your body's trying to keep all these things in balance, and one of the key ingredients that does that for us is a nutritional buffer is fiber. It is fiber and I'm not trying to force this topic in here why is it that people with sufficient fiber seem to have far fewer issues across the board? Across the board not just gut health, but also metabolism and hydration and like they don't seem to need as many supplements and they have better blood work, and like the list goes on and on and you're like this is amazing, what's going on?

Philip Pape: 7:20

Well, fiber, think of fiber as a buffer that keeps you regulated, that keeps you normalized, and there's five ways that this happens that I'm going to touch on today just because the number five is a nice concept, a nice number to grasp. The first way that fiber is a buffer is it stabilizes your nutrient absorption. All right, just like a chemical buffer neutralizes excess acid or excess base and maintains that pH balance. Fiber stabilizes nutrient absorption by slowing down the digestion of carbohydrates. Remember, fiber itself is a macronutrient. It is a, I'll say, a subtype of carb, but we give it very special treatment and so you could almost think of it as its own type of macro. And, in fact, if you're trying to track your fiber, it's really helpful to have a fiber target as its own macro, instead of just trying to get a certain amount of carbs, let's say 300 grams of carbs. Well, if you get 300 grams of carbs and they're all from white rice and they're all from different types of carbs that don't have much fiber, that's going to be a massively different outcome than some of those grams being from fiber. Not a lot of them, but some of them. And that's because they help prevent rapid spikes in blood sugar. They help you maintain a steady flow of energy. It is part of the balance.

Philip Pape: 8:46

When you have a macro balanced meal, it's not just fats, carbs, protein, it's also fiber. And I often tell people, hey, if you do nothing else, just have protein and fiber in every meal. Just have protein and fiber in every meal. Just have protein and fiber every meal. But I almost want to think, I almost want to say, like, start with fiber. I almost feel like fiber is even more important in many, for many people, because proteins kind of quote unquote easy to get to like. It's easy to eventually up your protein and get there. Fiber is a little trickier, especially for those who are picky about their vegetables or not used to preparing their food or cooking or making slightly more involved meals. And it doesn't have to be hard. I'm just pointing that out. So Number one fiber is a balancer.

Philip Pape: 9:29

It prevents spikes in blood sugar. It stabilizes the absorption of your nutrients Okay, it slows down digestion. Number two fiber balances your energy levels, just like a buffer prevents drastic changes in the solution. Fiber prevents drastic swings in energy by ensuring the more gradual release of glucose into the bloodstream, which is again related to what we just talked about, because it slows digestion. But this also helps avoid energy crashes. So if you're having problems with energy, especially in the afternoon, raise your hand right. I'm very prone to this, where, come 3 o'clock, I just want to crash and I'm out of the energy that I had in the morning when I had my caffeine and I'm ready to go and I go work out, you start to have this late day crash. You just may be shy of fiber, and that fiber, which slows down the release of glucose, could help you stretch out your energy from your food for hours and now you feel much better in the afternoon. So think about that, think about the importance of fiber, just for that Okay. Number three is it promotes the stability of your digestion. It promotes equilibrium because it regulates that's right your BMs, your bowel movements. It promotes a healthy gut environment. It prevents things like constipation, irregular digestion and then much worse issues for some people who just don't get nearly enough. All right, we're not even getting into the microbiome health and all that, that's great, but just regular EBMs alone is going to be hugely helpful for how you feel, your digestion, what you're up to doing throughout the day.

Philip Pape: 11:12

Number four is that fiber helps you manage fullness and satiety. Now, this is the big one that I usually throw out, bam first to everyone. I'm like all right, you're in fat loss, you're in a calorie deficit. How do we hack this whole hunger thing? Obviously, you're going to get hunger. Leptin is working against you. Grelin is working against you. Your hormones, your stress hormone, your gut hormones all of these are working against you. You've got so many appetite signals that are triggered.

Philip Pape: 11:39

But if you're, on top of that, eating a bunch of hyperpalatable, processed, calorie dense foods that don't have a lot of nutrients, even if you are eating a decent amount of protein, you're leaving a lot on the table when it comes to managing fullness, because fiber provides bulk to your meals. It fills up those meals. It helps you feel full a lot longer, not just a little bit, but quite a bit. It then leads to the likelihood that you will not overeat, right? Just like a buffer prevents pH from swinging too far in one direction. Now I'm starting to lose it here with this trying to force it into this engineering system. But you get what I'm saying.

Philip Pape: 12:18

Fullness and satiety go way up when you have more fiber, which is why one of the easiest hacks during fat loss is just to load up on vegetables, but don't forget fruit. There's also fruit when we're talking about not trying to get too many calories but trying to add in. Um, satiety, that's where I'm going to start is fruits and vegetables. Trying to add in satiety, that's where I'm going to start is fruits and vegetables. That's why it's so important. And then number five is having more fiber is directly correlated with enhancing your micronutrient intake, just by definition, because fiber rich foods are fruits, vegetables, whole grains, things with lots and lots of nutrients, and these provide a stable, food-based source of micronutrients so that you don't have to rely on supplements, right? And you're also not going to have major fluctuations in nutrient quality or food quality. So food quality goes up. And during fat loss, this is even more important, because that is when you have a higher risk of malnutrition. You have fewer calories coming in, or, for you ladies out there, who just naturally eat down in the 14 to 1600 range, you're constantly at risk of being undernourished or under nutrient. What am I trying to say Having malnutrition. So fiber can be the thing that unlocks that. And you know there's a lot of other benefits to fiber.

Philip Pape: 13:40

I just wanted to kind of to hit on the big ones that have to do with fat loss and have to do with health and nutrition. There are so many more, and I actually have spoken with several really interesting and knowledgeable experts on different aspects of gut health that end up coming back to fiber anyway, and so I'm going to throw some links to those previous episodes in the show notes. You can look for those. Those are interview episodes, because I'm not really an expert in gut health per se. I'm an expert in helping people find out what they're missing with their diet, with their nutrition and training, and doing those things and incorporating those things and then being consistent, knocking it out of the park and finally getting lean, finally getting the fat loss, finally getting the thing that they haven't gotten in years. They've been spinning their wheels because, A they weren't sure what was missing and, b they needed help actually making it happen, being consistent over time and looking at the data to tell them that it worked. Being consistent over time and looking at the data to tell them that it worked Okay.

Philip Pape: 14:43

So now that we understand the importance of fiber from the perspective of its use as a buffer in your body, right? It regulates so many things and makes it easier, makes fat loss easier, improves your health. How much should you be eating? How much fiber should you get? It's pretty simple. The more complicated answer is 14 grams per thousand calories consumed. The easier answer is men maybe 35 grams, women maybe 25 grams or more, and if you're far less than that, you'll know it. You'll know it if you start tracking. It doesn't have to be that tricky. You can simply use a food logging app. That's the easiest way to do it, or you can just manually track it. Either way, you'll know. Okay, I'm getting around 10 a day and I really need to be up at 25. If you're already in the ballpark, you're probably more or less okay.

Philip Pape: 15:29

Everybody has a little bit of a different tolerance. My personal favorite, of course, is Macrofactor. Others, like Chronometer, have decent nutrient tracking. What I like about Macrofactor is when you set up the nutrients explorer, it will automatically set up targets based on your gender and how much you're consuming, and those targets will float with your goal and with your targets, and then, every time you log a food, it'll tell you how many grams of fiber that contributes to the total and then you can look at the total for the day, the total for the last week, for the last three months Really good way to tell. Am I on the right track with my trend? You know, some days you're going to miss, some days you're going to go high, that's fine, it doesn't matter. Just as long as your trend is averaging out to that 25, 30, 35 grams, you're probably good.

Philip Pape: 16:18

As far as how to get more fiber, I mean, like with any food, you have to prioritize it, and I would start right with your first meal of the day, right with your breakfast. How do you get more fiber in there? Oatmeal, berries, chia seeds so many great foods to choose from. Again, they're in my guide If you join my email list and just ask for the fiber guide. So witsandweightscom, slash email and it has a whole list of things. Fiber guide. So witsandweightscom, slash email and it has a whole list of things. One of my clients who just joined last week she's eating a bunch of raspberries.

Philip Pape: 16:46

Raspberry is one of the highest fiber forms of fruit and berries. It's really good, very low calorie, but you can snack on vegetables. You can have whole grain options instead of refined options. You can add beans and lentils to things you enjoy. Fruits with the skin like eat your fruit, don't put it in a smoothie, eat it, get the fiber in there. Experiment with all sorts of fun foods that you may or may not like, but once you prepare them, you know, you roast them, you steam them, you stir fry them. Artichokes, brussel sprouts, avocados, like so many things have fiber that you might not even realize. And then, when you do this, just do it gradually. Don't try to solve it all in one day, just you know. Allow your digestive system to adjust. Make sure to drink plenty of water. Help fiber do its job, right those BMs right. Help it do its job and you'll be golden.

Philip Pape: 17:38

Now for those of you who listened to this episode because of fat loss specifically, it's not just about satiety, remember. More fiber actually allows you to eat more physical volume of food for the same calories. Ah, now think about that, right, fiber-rich foods, they're often less calorie dense, they're more nutrient dense. And so you can eat a huge bowl of strawberries, but you can only eat a half sleeve of Pringles, right, I mean, that's just an extreme example. The other one I like is sweet potato versus a Pop-Tart. They have the same macros, but one is much more processed and calorie dense, so you'll hardly feel like you ate anything. We're talking about the Pop-Tart, in case you were wondering, and then the sweet potato kind of like fills you up, right? Some of the top high satiety foods are also high in fiber. Not just white potatoes, but also an orange, and orange has a lot of fiber and it's also very filling and it's also sweet and delicious. So there we go.

Philip Pape: 18:31

The other cool thing remember how we talked about fiber stabilizing blood sugar and energy. This can lead to improved insulin sensitivity over time and that, combined with strength training, which is the other huge leverved insulin sensitivity over time, and that combined with strength training, which is the other huge lever of insulin sensitivity, is going to make your body then more efficient generally at how it uses its nutrients, and that can often help with fat loss as well. There's so many unintended positive side effects. By adding fiber to your diet, you're not just creating a more stable environment like a buffer, getting it back to our buffer system. You are potentially making all of your fat loss phases easier and more sustainable, and we love that.

Philip Pape: 19:13

So to recap the whole episode, it's basically just, if you do nothing else, you may be short on fiber and adding more fiber can potentially unlock a lot of the things you've been missing.

Philip Pape: 19:20

You may be short on fiber and adding more fiber can potentially unlock a lot of the things you've been missing. And if you found value in today's episode and you want my guide that I mentioned earlier a couple of times to identify the specific ways to add fiber to your diet and construct all these delicious, diverse meals so many foods to choose from just join my email list at witsandweightscom slash email and then reply to the welcome email and say hey, philip, can you send me that fiber guide? Send me that fiber guide. I'll know exactly what you're talking about and I'll send you your free copy, no strings attached. Again, go to witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in the show notes. All right, until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember sometimes the small changes, like adding more fiber to your breakfast, can lead to huge results. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

How to Eat Healthy When Your Family Doesn't Have the Same Fitness Goals | Ep 209

Are you trying to eat healthy, but your family’s eating habits are making it difficult? Are you constantly torn between reaching your fitness goals and keeping your loved ones happy? If navigating mealtime feels like a struggle between your ambitions and their preferences, you’re not alone.

Philip (@witsandweights) explores the common dilemma of trying to eat healthy when your family doesn’t share the same goals. Inspired by a listener question from Colton Y., Philip shares practical strategies for staying on track with your nutrition while maintaining harmony at home. Whether you’re dealing with a spouse who loves junk food, picky kids, or traditional calorie-laden family recipes, he offers three powerful strategies to help you. You’ll walk away with actionable tips that empower you to pursue your health goals without feeling isolated or causing friction at home.

🤝To get support and ideas from like-minded people who DO want to be healthier and more fit, join my free Wits & Weights Facebook group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/witsandweights

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:49 The importance of a supportive community
4:06 Defining “healthy eating” and the personal nature of health journeys
6:52 Strategy 1
10:37 Strategy 2 
14:55 Strategy 3
17:13 Revisiting strategies with specific examples for real-life situations
25:02 The ripple effect of your healthy choices on your family’s behavior
27:49 Outro

Episode summary:

Achieving personal health goals can be challenging, especially when family preferences lean towards junk food and calorie-heavy meals. The latest episode delves into effective strategies to maintain your health objectives while fostering a supportive family environment. This blog post will expand on the key topics discussed in the episode, providing actionable advice to help you navigate mealtime friction without sacrificing family harmony.

The podcast begins by addressing the common dilemma of maintaining healthy eating habits when family members aren't on board. Whether dealing with a partner with a sweet tooth, children who refuse vegetables, or parents clinging to traditional recipes, the episode offers three essential strategies to balance personal health goals with family dynamics.

The first strategy discussed is the importance of leading by example. Rather than trying to change others, focus on your own choices and demonstrate the benefits of healthy eating through your actions and results. By consistently making healthier choices, such as adding extra vegetables, choosing leaner proteins, and adjusting portion sizes, you can subtly influence your family members. Over time, they may begin to notice your progress and feel inspired to adopt healthier habits themselves. The episode emphasizes that the key is to be patient and consistent, as these changes won't happen overnight.

Effective communication is the second strategy highlighted in the episode. Openly discussing your health goals with your family can foster a more supportive environment, even if they do not share the same habits. By explaining your choices and the reasons behind them, you can reduce potential conflicts and increase understanding. The podcast suggests scheduling a family meeting to discuss your health goals, meal planning, and grocery shopping. This approach ensures everyone is on the same page and allows for collaborative problem-solving. Additionally, seeking support from like-minded individuals, such as joining a supportive Facebook group or finding training partners, can provide motivation and practical advice.

The third strategy focuses on finding creative compromises. Instead of trying to overhaul your family's eating habits, look for ways to incorporate healthier options into shared meals. For example, you can use the "build your own" approach, where everyone can customize their plates with a variety of healthy ingredients. This method allows for flexibility and ensures everyone's preferences are acknowledged. The episode also suggests gradually introducing healthier ingredients into family recipes, such as swapping pasta with zucchini noodles or using Greek yogurt instead of sour cream. By making small, incremental changes, you can nudge your family's eating habits in a healthier direction without causing resistance.

The episode also explores the importance of managing your food environment. By keeping tempting, unhealthy foods out of sight and stocking your kitchen with nutritious options, you can make it easier to stick to your health goals. The podcast provides practical tips on portion control and creative meal ideas to help you stay on track. For example, preparing meals in advance and using meal prep containers can simplify the process and reduce the temptation to opt for unhealthy choices.

Throughout the episode, the host emphasizes the importance of staying positive and patient. Changing family habits takes time and persistence, but the long-term benefits are worth the effort. The podcast encourages listeners to focus on their own journey while being respectful of others' choices. By maintaining a positive attitude and leading by example, you can create a ripple effect that influences your family's eating habits over time.

In summary, this episode provides valuable insights and practical strategies to help you achieve your health goals without sacrificing family harmony. By leading by example, communicating effectively, and finding creative compromises, you can inspire healthier habits within your household. Managing your food environment and staying positive and patient are also crucial components of this process. For additional support and motivation, consider joining the Wits and Weights Facebook group, where you can connect with like-minded individuals and share your experiences. Start implementing these strategies today and take the first step toward a balanced, healthier household!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

So you've decided to transform your eating habits. You're aiming for a healthier lifestyle, but there's this one little problem your family isn't on board. Every meal feels like a battle between your goals and their preferences. You're torn between sticking to your plan and keeping the peace at the dinner table. Does that sound familiar to you? Today, we are tackling the dilemma of what to do when your family isn't fully on board with how you eat or even your overall health and fitness goals. You'll learn how to navigate this tricky situation without sacrificing your goals or your relationships. Whether you're dealing with a spouse who loves junk food, kids who refuse vegetables, or parents who insist on traditional, very calorie-laden recipes, this episode will help you find both balance and success. After all, who doesn't want a little bit of harmony in their household? Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape: 1:05

I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're diving into a topic that hits close to home for many of us, and that is how to eat healthy when your family doesn't. And this was inspired by a really good question from one of our listeners, colton Y. Colton sent me a message. He reached out and asked me this question. I gave him some personalized advice, but I wanted to address it in general for those listening and give you some of my favorite strategies for this that I've helped clients with, and I want to give Colton a shout out for his question. Here's what he asked how do you go about being the only one in your family trying to eat healthy? How do you balance being or eating healthy with a family who isn't interested and I hear this all the time. I get asked about this on podcasts, both for family in general, but also kids, right, it kind of all applies to the same thing. So you're definitely not alone, colton. Many of us face these challenges of trying to balance what we find extremely important with family dynamics where not everybody necessarily finds it as important or even cares. Right, or even, in some cases, they try to sabotage you because they feel threatened. Right, there's a lot of different reasons for it, but today we're going to take a positive lens on this and we're going to explore strategies that will help you stay on track without causing as much friction at home and kind of make it all work without changing other people. Right, if you can inspire other people. That's awesome, but you can't expect to change them. So how can we focus on ourselves to make this successful?

Philip Pape: 2:37

Now, before we dive in, if you are facing any challenges like this and you have questions about balancing your fitness journey with family life or anything like that, I want to invite you to join our free Facebook group. That is a very supportive community where you will find like-minded people who are supportive of your goals, who have similar goals, and you could ask questions, you could share your experiences, you could share your wins, you can get advice from other people, and then you could even post a personal question about your situation in our Friday Ask Philip live session. So I will basically do a Q&A in a live and I will answer your very specific context-based question. So to join our Facebook group, just click the link in the show notes or search for Wits and Weights on Facebook. Pretty simple.

Philip Pape: 3:22

Now let's get into today's topic, which is really how do you eat, quote unquote healthy. Now, healthy is a subjective term, but it's basically how do you eat the way you want for your goals to build muscle, to lose fat, to live a long life, to get the nutrients you need all that stuff when others in your household might not want to eat the same way and they may even have a different opinion or belief on what healthy is for them. They may have health goals and yet still believe that, for example, you have to cut carbs and they just don't eat any carbs and you do because you know it helps building muscle and give you energy. So there are differences we can have and preferences we can have. That don't mean that we're not supporting each other on our goals. It's just that the way we want to get there might differ Different perspectives, different strokes, different folks.

Philip Pape: 4:09

So today we are going to cover this challenge, what it looks like, what do we mean by this? We're going to go over three strategies that I really like. I could definitely give you 10 more, 20 more, as always, but I don't like to overwhelm you. I want to just focus on three that I think you can apply just one of these or all three for maximum effect and maintain harmony in your family, and then how to implement them with some real life situations. So I want to break it up that way and, starting with just this challenge, like what is it and can you relate to this and what it looks like, is this eating differently from your family?

Philip Pape: 4:45

Because food is such a cultural and personal experience, it can feel isolating, and I've felt this many times myself over the years where I had these extreme diets. My wife wasn't really on board, which I couldn't blame her in hindsight. I was kind of the one pushing for something that didn't quite make sense. And you have this tug of war, you have this battle brewing. So it could be between you and your spouse. It could be between you and your kids, who don't want to eat certain foods. The older they are and the less that they've been educated that way, the harder it is. It could be with a roommate as well. It could be when you go to family events with your grandparents who want you to eat their famous baked goods and will feel insulted if you don't. You might face skepticism, you might face teasing, you might face all sorts of resistance from loved ones who just don't understand your choices. And what does this lead to? Stress, stress at mealtimes, temptation to give up on your goals because it's just too much to fight. It can lead to strain on your relationships. I do think this is a really important thing, and so, colton, your question is very pertinent and I wasn't even going to address this anytime soon, so I'm glad you brought it up Now.

Philip Pape: 5:57

You, you, dear listener, you, me, everyone our health journeys are very personal, right? They're very, very personal. Even if you and the person next to you both want to build muscle, both want to lose fat, both want to be healthy, the way you get there is still going to be personal, and so even that can create friction. And, at the end of the day, what are we doing? We are making choices that align with our values and our goals. That is it, and the challenge lies in pursuing those goals while maintaining the positive family dynamics which can often go against them, right? So I'm just laying out what this looks like. You, listening, might have a very specific scenario you're thinking of, and if, by the end of the episode, I don't address that scenario enough for you, please just reach out and send me a message. You send a text message. You can contact me on instagram at wits and weights. All the info is in the episode, in the show notes.

Philip Pape: 6:53

So let's dive into three very powerful strategies to navigate this situation, and then I'm gonna come back to these again just to reinforce them, but with examples. So the first one is it's really all about you leading by example right, focusing on your own choices, owning them, having agency, being empowered and not pressuring others. So, on one hand, you are being the person you aspire to be. You are living into that identity. Who are you? You're that athlete, you're the person who trains, you're the person who supports and fuels your body right, and you therefore make choices for that. You don't cut things out, you don't deprive yourself, you don't feel like you can't do things. When you go to a party, if you choose to have that cake, you choose to have that cake, you have it, or you choose not to, and you say I'm not eating the cake, that's it. That's just my choice and I'm not going to pressure you one way or the other.

Philip Pape: 7:59

You also demonstrate to others how healthy eating and by healthy eating, again, I mean an overall healthy dietary pattern full of whole foods, full of protein, fiber, things that support you you demonstrate why that helps you through your actions, but also through your results, and so, over time this is what I found as well people will start to ask me questions like hey, how are you eating? How is that working for you? What's working for you and you can use that as an opportunity to open up the dialogue once they've asked, and they can choose to do it or not, because all of this stuff takes a little bit of work and it takes change and not everyone is ready for that. But if you've at least demonstrated through your actions and they see you're getting healthier and you're looking more vibrant and you have more energy and you're looking jacked and you're looking great in your clothes, whatever the thing is that can inspire others. And finally, as part of this whole thing, when you think about how you communicate and are open about your journey, you're not doing it to preach or to criticize others' choices, and it is a fine line.

Philip Pape: 9:00

Sometimes I kind of relate to other choices we make, like we homeschool our kids, and let me tell you, people are easily open to criticizing and judging you for doing that. And yet I would never judge someone for sending their kids to public that. And yet I would never judge someone for sending their kids to public school, even though I would love to retort with whatever claim they're making against us teaching our kids at home why it might be 10 times worse sending your kids to public school, in my opinion. In my brain right. We think those things. Same thing with food. Somebody's like well, carbs are going to make you fat. I'm cutting carbs. Why are you doing that? And you want to be defensive and you want to preach about it. That's not going to win any battles at all. It's probably going to make people more stubborn.

Philip Pape: 9:39

There's a famous quote that goes those convinced against their will are of the same opinion. Still, people have to be open to the change. So, talking about it in a way that is about you and not them saying, hey, I chose to do this for this reason. This is why I'm doing this. I love doing this, because I'm very excited about this, because, right Again, when people ask us about our kids and homeschooling, they're like well, are you worried about socialization? And I'm like, oh yeah, I was so worried about that. That's one of the reasons we chose a homeschool, because we get to have our kids with all kids of all ages. They get to be socialized with their parents, who are, in our opinion, their best influence. And I can go on and on and make the argument, but my point is you're not starting with the preaching or the criticizing. You are simply responding to what they say and being excited about it and putting it back into your own experience. So that's leading by example and again I'm going to come back with how to put these into action with some more specifics related to eating in particular.

Philip Pape: 10:39

The second one here is the second strategy is kind of the in-between strategy and that is finding creative compromises. So you're not trying to go all the way and change everybody else. You're not changing even if you're the primary chef of the family or the cook of the family. I say chef kind of like a joke, because many of you may have a to order system where three different people have three different meals, including your kids, and you're making it for them as if it's a restaurant and you could laugh maybe, but there is something there to think about whether that's the best approach for everyone. But when we talk about creative compromises, if you can cook a shared meal, right, the meal that everyone eats at the table, that's a little bit customized so that everyone's preferences are acknowledged and met in some right. So where you might have five foods and Jimmy has two of those foods and your wife has two of those and you have two of those and all the food's getting eaten but not everyone is eating every food. Ah, that's a nice way to compromise, where you're still getting the high protein piece over here or the vegetable over here that maybe not everyone else wants, but you're kind of overlapping with each other at the table, also introducing, let's say, healthier versions or nudging family favorites, things that you have on a regular basis that everyone already likes, and kind of nudging them in a healthier direction, either by simply modifying some of the main ingredients or, I'll say, sneaking in vegetables. But you should probably talk about it, let them know you're doing that. But once they realize, hey, this is not so bad, maybe can do this, it kind of opens up the doors.

Philip Pape: 12:14

And then, of course, planning ahead. We always want to plan ahead when it comes to eating, when it comes to food, when it comes to macros and calories and all that Planning ahead is always going to produce the emotion, the decision fatigue, the gut reactions later on. And so, if you can plan ahead for family gatherings, big meals, big holiday meals, to ensure that you at least have some options in there that align with you. And one great way to do this is say, hey, I'm going to bring a dish or two for you guys, that's two less things that you have to make. Um, I do this all the time with my in-laws, where you know they make. They make a good spread of meat, but let's just say the vegetables are a bit limited. Or there are things like macaroni salad right, people love macaroni salad, but it's pasta with a little bit of veggies and some cream. And then I'll say, hey, I'm going to bring some roasted Brussels sprouts, right? Or I'm going to bring some green beans or a big salad. And so you can get these compromises where you're not forcing anybody to do anything, you're just getting in the foods that you want, right. So that's the second strategy is some sort of compromise that nudges things where you are satisfied and you're able to meet your goals and you're not really changing anyone else. But again, you're showing through your actions maybe you're kind of tying this to the first strategy that some of these things can be tasty and delicious and you might want to try them. Maybe, maybe not, we'll see. So that's the second.

Philip Pape: 13:35

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits and Weights. I started Wits and Weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s, 40s and beyond who want to build muscle, lose fat and finally look like they lift. I've noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential, whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and Weights Physique University, a semi-private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized, done-for-you nutrition plan, custom-designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest, leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape: 14:55

The third strategy. Okay, and I was arguing no, I was. What's the word? I was wondering whether I should put this first or last, and I kept it for last, but for many of you, this actually needs to be the very first thing, and this is communicating, needs to be the very first thing, and this is communicating, communicating openly, communicating openly and, as part of that, getting the support you need. So this may or may not apply to your situation. You may not have the relationship where this can happen, but I think almost any relationship just talking through things, even if you're scared about what will happen, is often the best thing you can do. It gets things out in the open.

Philip Pape: 15:33

You have an honest conversation with your loved one, with your family, with your kids, with your extended family, about your health goals and why they're important to you. You're not convincing them, you're not telling them they need to do this. You're not guilt tripping them. You're simply saying here are my here's, why they're important to me and here's why I tend to make some of these choices that you might find weird or be skeptical of or try to pressure me against. This is why I'm doing it. That's it. This is why I'm doing it. This is why I don't drink alcohol. This is why, when you bring your famous Waldorf salad, I have a very small portion. You know Waldorf salad, I have a very small portion. This is why I do it. Okay, I love what you make. It's delicious and I also have these goals that I'm meeting. So this is why I do it.

Philip Pape: 16:17

So you want to have the honest conversation, but also then ask for their support. My friend Carl Carl Berryman. He would say ask for a spot, right, ask for their support, ask for a spot Even if they don't join you in changing their habits. Ask for them to help you out. And we'll talk about some specifics, but one that comes to mind, for example, is just your food environment. If they want to eat what they want to eat, fine, let's just make it less visible. Can you help me out with that? Little things like that? And, of course, if you want to extend this whole support thing to the next level, it would be actually actively finding like-minded people who do share your values and goals. That may not be in your family, right, they may be in our Facebook group, they may be friends, you know other people, your training partner, so that you could get, you can motivate each other, you could get ideas. You could ask them hey, what would you do in this situation? And you know that you're not alone, you're not on an island, all right. So those are the three strategies. Now we're going to revisit them here with some specifics that will help.

Philip Pape: 17:19

Sometimes I don't these days I don't do like a lot of how to and I think in this case I wanted to give you a picture of how these could be applied. There are a million ways to do it and, of course, if you want to know how to apply this to your situation, this is where I encourage you to reach out to me. Schedule a free call there's a link in the show notes or just send me a message and say hey, that was great, I love this idea, but how do I apply that to my situation? X? Xyz.

Philip Pape: 17:45

So let's go back to leading by example. How can you lead by example? One way to do this is adding extra vegetables, choosing leaner proteins, adjusting the portion sizes of your own plate. Now, you're like duh right, listen to what I'm saying. Your wife serves you. Let's say you may clean your plate. Well, what if you instead ate all the lean protein? You asked for more vegetables and then you may not eat as much of the starch because that's your portion size. Now, again, this may not work with everybody. This may offend your wife, whatever, and this is where I think talking through this stuff is important, where you could say, hey, can I have just a smaller portion of that and a larger portion of that, and start to nudge your plate.

Philip Pape: 18:31

When family members then notice this and when they ask about the weird choices you're making, that is where you say you can explain your goals positively, say, yeah, I know, thanks for noticing. Here's what I'm doing. I'm just trying to up my protein and I noticed I wasn't getting enough. My coach is having me track that. You could always use your coach as an excuse, even if it's like you're not paying it for a coach and it's your podcast guy, philip, just just call me your coach. Yeah, my coach asked me to eat more protein, so I'm trying to do this. And hey, if you want to try this food that I'm eating, go for it, like if you're curious about it. It's pretty cool. I put this awesome sauce on it and the spicy rub on it, whatever. And then the other thing is you could share how you're progressing and how you're feeling as you make these changes, again focusing on you and the benefits that you're experiencing. So leading by example can literally start on the plate at the family dinners by choosing the foods that work for you and putting that in combination with having those options available for you without trying to force anyone else to do anything.

Philip Pape: 19:34

The second strategy about creative compromises. What can you do there? All right, for a shared meal I kind of alluded to this earlier but you can use the build your own approach. Okay, yes, it's kind of like a buffet, but it's not like you're providing 20 options. You're setting out some ingredients or a couple sides and a couple meats, something like that. And this is where meal prep can be very helpful, because if you've meal prepped a lot of these things, then you can mix and match throughout the week and so people can customize their plate a bit. Right, this could make it fun. You could have taco night, you could have salad bar, you could have stir fry and yeah, my mind just burped right there because I was in the middle of a non-thought, kind of like a black abyss in my brain for a few seconds, and I'm going to keep this on the recording for you guys, so you could maybe relate. Okay, and then you could, as part of fighting creative compromises, gradually introduce healthier ingredients into family recipes.

Philip Pape: 20:33

Again, I say healthier, I just mean, in relative terms, of things that you want to eat more of. So swapping pasta with zucchini noodles or using Greek yogurt instead of sour cream, I mean some things like that one Greek yogurt you don't even notice, like put it on your taco and don't tell anybody and they're going to be like, ooh, this sour cream is delicious. Now, some people may be more sensitive to that with their taste, but some things are not that different. And then when you go out to eat, suggest restaurants that offer the range of options that suit everyone's preferences not just yours, but others. You know, always be cognizant of what other people want. You're not trying to change them. You're not trying to go somewhere that has, like all the high protein stuff you love but nothing no one else likes. You want to find things that kind of satisfy multiple preferences. It's like my friends who are vegan or vegetarian. I've got to be cognizant that we're not going to necessarily a barbecue place every time where they have all. Their only option is like broccoli slaw. You know we're going to some other restaurants that have more options. So that's what I'm talking about with being creative.

Philip Pape: 21:35

And then the last thing communicating openly and seeking support. Specifically, what can you do here, I would schedule a family meeting or just, hopefully, you talk to your spouse, your wife, your husband on a regular basis I mean, if you're not doing that to begin with, that is a good place to start anyway and then discuss your health goals, just explain why you're making the changes, how it's going to affect your meal planning, where you store food in the house, like in your fridge and cabinets, your grocery shopping. And this is a great opportunity for you to step it up and volunteer to do some things, volunteer to do a chore, volunteer to do the grocery shopping, and you kind of get a two-for-one you are providing support to someone else. They don't have to do that thing and you're getting a little bit of control over the situation to help yourself out. But remember you're not trying to push away or push out other people's preferences as you do that. You're simply trying to add in the things that will support you.

Philip Pape: 22:31

And if someone else is doing the grocery shopping, you say, hey, do you mind if I add some things to the list and if you can give them a little flexibility? Right, don't necessarily say I have to have this exact thing, this exact brand, blah, blah, blah. Now, in some cases, you know, like with my wife, I'm like fair life chocolate milk. You know, right, she knows, just put it on the list, honey, and I'll get it. It's no big deal, but it affects everything. It affects your planning for your meals and all of that. But you have to talk about it.

Philip Pape: 23:00

Also, ask your family for specific ways that they can support you. Can they keep the foods out of sight that are tempting you? Are they open to trying new recipes together? Are they open to it? And then you can make a fun thing of it. You can say, hey, let's look for recipes together, or maybe even bring up ones that look good to you. Say, hey, which of these three things do you like the most? Giving them options. It's like which of these three things would you like the most? And there's gotta be something that people like, even if their preferences are a little bit different.

Philip Pape: 23:32

But the key here, the key here is to focus on your own journey, your own experience, while being respectful of others' choices. Right? That's where you're going to find that balance. And that honestly applies to everything, right? Everything in life. And the cool thing about all this if you do it that way, that is ultimately what is going to have a positive ripple effect on your family. Even if they're not actively participating and making that choice right now, they're going to see those results.

Philip Pape: 24:02

Research has shown that when one family member adopts healthier habits, it can influence the behaviors of others over time, and that's called the halo effect time. And it's that's called the halo effect. Hello, hello. No, that's the halo effect, which means your choices will subtly inspire changes in others, in your family's eating habits, definitely in your kids. I mean, kids are super impressionable when they're young, so why not impress them with good eating? And you may not even realize it that they're doing this because you're just not trying to force it on them. There's a study published in the international journal of behavioral, nutrition and physical activity that found when parents increase their fruit and vegetable consumption, their children are more likely to do the same. So if you're not even doing it yourself, that's going to be a problem. The person who asked the question today was was starting with the premise that they already were making those healthier choices for themselves and their family wasn't quite on board. The person who asked the question today was starting with the premise that they already were making those healthier choices for themselves and their family wasn't quite on board, but the more you do it in front of others and then they see the results, the more they're going to want to do it.

Philip Pape: 25:02

So stay consistent with your habits. Stay consistent with your habits, that's very important and then you're planting the seeds maybe most likely for positive change beyond you, beyond you to your family, to your loved ones. And it's not gonna happen overnight, just like your own journey isn't an overnight thing. It's the commitment to these goals over time and that's the catalyst for the healthier household in the long run. And you hear how positive and the kind of positive energy I have about this. I think that's the way it's most helpful when you're communicating this, as opposed to a negative lens, because that is what people will respond to and they'll know that you're excited about it and there's a reason you're excited for it and you're persevering. When you do this, you're doing the hard thing, but you're sticking with it, even if it feels like you're the only one doing it. I know I with it. Even if it feels like you're the only one doing it, I know, I know it can feel like an island. Know that your actions are making a difference, both for you and, potentially, for your loved ones.

Philip Pape: 26:00

So, as we wrap up, let me just recap the main points. Number one leading by example. Super powerful. You don't create conflict by doing that. You simply do it from your own experience. Number two finding creative compromises. So compromise, you get something, they get something, no one is made unhappy. You're actually adding into the situation so that you can stay true to your goals but still respect family traditions, family preferences. And then third, open communication.

Philip Pape: 26:29

You have to talk about this stuff with people. You just have to talk with people both inside and outside your family, anyone who you interact with regarding food, I mean maybe not the guy at the food truck, right, but the people you eat with, because it's such a deep cultural experience that we put so much pressure on ourselves with and we're not trying to change it all overnight. We just can't. It's so deeply embedded. We just want to create the environment, nudge an environment toward where we can thrive, where you can thrive in your journey and maintain those positive relationships.

Philip Pape: 27:03

And Colton, who wrote in the question, and everyone else who's facing this challenge you're not alone. You're not alone. I mean, this is so common you don't even understand it. It's almost every client of mine has some situation like this in their family, some situation, and there's always a little different flavor to it and we have to attack the problem very specifically for them. But it's absolutely possible, no matter who you are Right, and if the situation is so toxic that there's no way at all, that's an indication of other things that you might want to deal with. So I'm kind of assuming that your loved ones are people you love and they love you, and therefore there's room for compromise, there's room for discussion, there's room for creativity and patience, and then the rewards are going to be there for your health and for your relationships. So two for one, you get two for one there.

Philip Pape: 27:50

All right, if you found value in today's episode, I encourage you to join our free facebook group because that is a great place to connect with others who for sure are going to support you. They for sure are on a similar journey, whether it's food training, and in our group it is even more of a kind of narrow niche of people specifically focused on body composition. They know the importance of muscle for longevity and health. They know the value of carbs and balance and flexibility. Like carbs, protein, fats. They don't exclude things they don't restrict. If you're looking for that environment of people and if you want to be able to ask questions and get very specific answers, join our Facebook group. Link in the show notes. Search for Wits and Weights on Facebook Very easy. Reach out to me anytime and until next time, keep using those wits, keep lifting some weights and remember that your health journey is yours, it's uniquely yours, but you don't have to go it alone. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Diet Soda Is Good For You | Ep 208

Have you heard that diet soda is harmful or causes weight gain? What if we told you it might actually help in your fat loss journey?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives deep into the controversial world of diet soda with his friends Dustin Lambert and Dwayne Ulrich from the Working Weights LLC podcast. They’ll explore how these fizzy, zero-calorie drinks can fit into a smart nutrition plan, debunk myths about artificial sweeteners, and examine the surprising health benefits of diet soda. 

Dustin Lambert is a seasoned strength and nutrition coach with over a decade of experience. Dustin specializes in helping clients with metabolic syndrome. As a co-host of the Working Weights LLC podcast, he translates complex nutrition research into practical advice, breaking down health and fitness trends with clarity and humor.

Dwayne Ulrich is the “everyman” co-host of the Working Weights LLC podcast. Dwayne offers a relatable perspective on health and fitness. His diverse background includes roles as an educator, coach, firefighter, police officer, and x-ray technician, making him a valuable voice in the fitness community.

📨To learn more about flexible dieting so you can enjoy whatever you want (including diet soda), join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email 

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:30 The scary things about diet soda
6:14 The benefits of diet soda
9:23 Is diet soda cancerous?
13:02 The composition and differences of sweeteners
17:43 Myths about diet soda and weight gain
27:53 Drinking diet soda for enjoyment
32:19 Diet soda and blood sugar
47:48 Diet soda and cardiovascular health
52:28 Caffeine in diet soda
1:00:54 How to connect with Dustin and Dwayne
1:01:40 Outro

Check out these related episodes on the Working Weights LLC podcast:

• Sweet Talk: Decoding the World of Artificial Sweeteners

• The Artificial Dye Debate

• Is coffee bad for your health?

Episode summary:

In this episode, we take a deep dive into the controversial and often misunderstood world of diet soda. Titled "Debunking Myths and Unveiling the Science Behind Diet Soda," this episode brings expert guests Dustin Lambert and Dwayne Ulrich to the forefront as we explore the health and science insights of zero-calorie beverages. We challenge the common fears and misconceptions surrounding diet soda, comparing it to other beverages, and provide an evidence-based perspective on its role in weight management and overall health.

Can diet soda really be a healthier choice? This episode aims to provide clarity on this question. The discussion kicks off with an examination of the conventional wisdom that often portrays diet soda in a negative light. We scrutinize the fears of its links to cancer and metabolic issues, presenting robust scientific evidence to debunk these myths. Dwayne Ulrich shares a captivating story about soldiers consuming overheated diet sodas, which led him to investigate the safety of artificial sweeteners like aspartame.

A key theme of the episode is diet soda's place in a balanced lifestyle. The conversation compares diet soda to other common beverages such as alcohol, highlighting the importance of context and relative health risks. This discussion underscores the value of flexible dieting and making incremental dietary improvements rather than adopting an all-or-nothing approach. The potential health benefits of diet soda and sweeteners like aspartame are explored, encouraging evidence-based decisions in nutrition.

The episode also delves into the complex relationship between artificially sweetened beverages and weight management. Findings from a recent randomized control trial suggest that diet sodas can be more effective for weight loss and maintenance than water. The role of gut microbiota, blood sugar, insulin levels, and cardiovascular health are discussed in detail, challenging the myths and misinformation surrounding diet soda.

We challenge the conventional wisdom that diet sodas are detrimental to health. We examine how these zero-calorie beverages might actually aid in fat loss and overall health. Dustin Lambert and Dwayne Ulrich provide insights on the ingredients in diet soda, the potential health benefits, and the misconceptions driven by fear-mongering. Dwayne recounts a story about soldiers consuming overheated diet sodas, which led him to investigate the safety of artificial sweeteners.

We explore the polarizing topic of diet soda and its place in a healthy lifestyle. The discussion covers personal preferences and experiences with diet soda, including the reasons why some avoid it due to taste and nutritional considerations. The potential health impacts of diet soda, particularly the classification of aspartame as a probable carcinogen, are scrutinized. The conversation emphasizes the importance of context and relative health risks, advocating for a balanced perspective when considering diet soda consumption.

We dive into the various aspects of artificial and natural sweeteners, focusing on their safety, composition, and consumption limits. Common sweeteners such as aspartame, sucralose, stevia, and neotame are discussed, examining their origins and how they are processed. The perception of these sweeteners as carcinogens and the actual risks involved based on advisable daily intake levels are explored. The episode concludes with practical advice on the consumption of diet drinks and the importance of understanding the ADI to make informed choices.

We then examine the complex relationship between artificially sweetened beverages and weight management. A recent randomized control trial by Joanne Harold and colleagues is discussed, showing that replacing sugar-sweetened beverages with artificially sweetened ones can lead to more effective weight loss and maintenance compared to water. The issue of reverse causality and the role of confounding factors such as family history and individual behaviors are addressed. Additionally, anecdotal evidence and a Harvard study suggesting that certain artificial sweeteners might affect brain signals related to satiety are considered.

Next, we address common concerns about diet soda, specifically whether it causes increased appetite or weight gain. Epidemiological observations and rodent studies suggesting a link between artificial sweeteners and increased calorie consumption are explored. Human randomized control trials indicating that substituting regular soda with diet soda results in weight loss and lower fasting glucose levels are highlighted. The role of gut microbiota and gut-brain signaling in these outcomes is discussed, suggesting that diet soda might influence these mechanisms to promote a slight decrease in calorie intake.

We then focus on the impact of diet sodas on blood sugar, insulin levels, and cardiovascular health. The idea that small amounts of insulin can help reduce glycogen stores in the liver and muscles, potentially leading to lower fasting glucose levels and improved homeostasis, is explored. The effects of artificial sweeteners like sucralose on insulin resistance are considered. The role of diet sodas in weight management and their independent effect on reducing blood pressure are discussed, highlighting the potential cardiovascular benefits of diet sodas as a substitute for sugar-sweetened beverages.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:07

you've heard that diet soda is terrible for you, that it causes cancer, weight gain and metabolic issues. But what if conventional wisdom is not only wrong. What if these cold, fizzy, zero calorie, artificially sweetened beverages could actually help you lose fat and improve your health? Today, we're challenging assumptions to support the seemingly strange concept that, yes, diet soda can actually be a helpful tool. Whether you're battling sugar cravings, trying to create a calorie deficit or simply looking for a guilt-free treat, this episode will give you the nuance and, very possibly, peace of mind you're looking for when it comes to diet soda.

Philip Pape: 0:54

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're diving into the controversial world of diet soda with my friends Dustin Lambert and Dwayne Ulrich from the Working Weights LLC podcast. Go, follow it right now. Pause, find it. Follow it. Dustin, who's been on the show before, is a strength and nutrition coach with over a decade of experience specializing in metabolic syndrome and helping countless clients transform their bodies. He's also one of the best guys I know when it comes to unraveling nutrition research.

Philip Pape: 1:27

Dwayne is the everyday ombudsman on their podcast. He's a renaissance man of sorts, having been a high school educator in history and science, a coach for track and field, softball, baseball, volleyball, soccer, everything except the Olympics, a firefighter, police officer and x-ray technician. In short, I think he's ready for anything. Today, we're going to discuss how diet soda can fit into a smart nutrition plan and examine the potential health benefits which might surprise you. We'll also dive into the evidence on artificial sweeteners and diet soda, including fat loss, obesity, insulin, diabetes and more, to give you the full picture, so you can unfollow the fear-mongering fitfluencers and rely instead on evidence to make the best decision for your goals. Dustin Dwayne, welcome to the show. My friends, thank you, thank you.

Dwayne Ulrich: 2:13

Glad to be here, man. Glad to be here, it's an honor.

Philip Pape: 2:16

So I actually want to start with Dwayne, as the every man on BuzzAid Break the ice dude.

Dwayne Ulrich: 2:38

Just get it out of your system, okay, and Dustin's ego is going to be just fine here. So I think I think so. Here's my question for you, super simple what are the some of the scary things that dive off into the ingredients and what the sweeteners were? It kind of freaks me out a little bit.

Dwayne Ulrich: 2:48

The only thing that and my interest in diet sodas came to me when I heard about I believe it was like I think maybe the army or something that guys really wanted a lot of diet Coke. Diet Coke was one of the favorite things that they had. So you know the US shipped diet Coke over to to them on these big pallets but they sat outside you know they're in like, I guess, in Iraq and heat on these Diet Cokes and these guys were drinking these Cokes but they'd been sitting out in the heat and they started getting lethargic and sleepy and I'm like that doesn't sound right to me. So that's when I started taking a deep dive off into what the sweeteners were made of and what they look like. Just listening to chemical contents or maybe about which we're not going to really talk about today, but chemical contents and how they're made kind of freaked me out a little bit. It's weird.

Philip Pape: 3:41

Yeah, yeah, I would agree, man. You know we've heard for years like the fewer ingredients the better, or if it's made in a lab, steer clear. Or if you can't pronounce the ingredient, don't eat it. There's, who is that on instagram. She's hilarious, the nutrition, oh, you guys might know who she is. She will like talk about a food that has all these chemicals and then she'll reveal that it's a banana you know, she'll say like there's all these chemicals and it's actually a banana I can't remember the name, uh gosh.

Philip Pape: 4:07

Yeah, I know you're talking about yeah, like a dietician, pharmacist, whatever, yeah. And then the diet coke in the army thing. I hadn't heard that. What would you say today? So do you drink it today, duane? Do you drink diet soda?

Dwayne Ulrich: 4:17

no, no, not really because it scares me or anything. But okay, man, I just don't like the taste.

Philip Pape: 4:22

You you don't like the taste, kind of chemically to you.

Dwayne Ulrich: 4:24

Well, I just want to say I need to be full disclosure. I drink almost no soft drinks Okay cool. I don't like the taste of the diet cokes. I don't drink a lot of the diet drinks at all, never have and the content of sugar and other soft drinks. It just doesn't fit my nutrition plan.

Philip Pape: 4:46

Sure, yeah. So perfectly valid reason. You don't like it. It doesn't fit for you. Yeah, love it. Dustin, now, if diet soda kills you, why are you comfortable drinking it right now? And what are you drinking?

Dustin Lambert: 4:58

Yeah, that is a good question, there we go.

Dwayne Ulrich: 5:03

Oh man Wait a minute.

Dustin Lambert: 5:05

He's got the classic the silver can, the classic I have the silver can, although I do think that the that dr pepper zero probably tastes the closest to the real thing. However, where I have currently moved to like, a 12 pack of something is insanely expensive. So buying a 24 packpack of Diet Coke so that's the only reason I have Diet Coke is just because of the price, but I do like the Dr Pepper Zero's best.

Philip Pape: 5:32

It is one of the most profitable products on the market. I mean, you think they're just adding a tiny bit of, they're squirting in this tiny bit of syrup into water and they're basically selling water, right? So again why am I not dead? Yeah, why are you not dead? I mean, we know how awful this stuff is. Man, what are you doing yourself? I?

Dustin Lambert: 5:49

guess. Um, I don't know, maybe I'm a superhero.

Philip Pape: 5:52

Yeah, I mean, you are right so your, your gut, just like, just like churns that stuff into gold and you're good, right, pretty much.

Dustin Lambert: 6:03

Pretty much, yes. And then, um, you know, the rest of it is excreted in urine. Through excellence, so through excellence.

Philip Pape: 6:10

Okay, got to bottle that up, all right, so all right. And also quasi seriousness. We don't have to get all serious, can the premise of this, this episode and people are looking at the title, thinking diet soda is good for you. It sounds like clickbait. They're going to turn it around. It's going to be this myth that we're breaking, like no, of course it's terrible for you or it can't be good for you. Can it be good for you? Like, let's start there and then we can break into the details.

Dustin Lambert: 6:35

Yep, so can it be good for you? I think that the answer is yes. It's kind of a weird position to defend here, but yeah, so I'm definitely up for the challenge, looking into it and so just to caveat, the entire podcast here. I don't think it's the best thing that you could be drinking, but I'm going to be the lawyer for diet soda here today and I'm going to make the case that it can be particularly good for you, especially in certain circumstances. So, context matters is what you're saying. Context definitely matters, yeah.

Philip Pape: 7:12

Okay, how would you put it compared to alcohol, on the spectrum of beverages that are, quote unquote, good for you in general or depending on context?

Dustin Lambert: 7:22

On a scale of one to 10, it's probably a 12. Better than alcohol, all right.

Philip Pape: 7:29

Okay, just lay in the relative things for people, because everybody loves to drink alcohol.

Dustin Lambert: 7:36

Yeah, I was going to say so that might jump into the cancer concerns right away. So there are concerns for cancer regarding this stuff. Probably the one sweetener that most people are familiar with would be aspartame, and that was recently added to the IARC list of carcinogens. Now it's in the category of 2B, as in Bravo, which is a probable carcinogen, and it's in there with other things like pumping gas in your car, asian pickled vegetables, like a whole bunch of stuff. And it's in there with other things like pumping gas in your car, asian pickled vegetables, like a whole bunch of stuff. And it's hard to argue against the word probable, like is is stuff probably carcinogen? Yeah, probably.

Dustin Lambert: 8:15

Alcohol, on the other hand, is a definite known carcinogen. I believe that's class one class one. I could be wrong. So there's class one, class two a, class two B, and then you have class three, which is just not at all. Uh, so alcohol is, I believe it's a class one carcinogen. So, on the basis of you know whether it causes cancer or not, like should you drink diet soda instead of an alcoholic beverage? Yeah, absolutely yes.

Philip Pape: 8:45

And that's a. That's a great point. Right there I think we're going to hit on throughout the show. A lot of this is relative. It really is relative.

Philip Pape: 8:51

I was on a show recently with and I'm not going to name names a very established nutrition coach who was asking me about some of these corner cases and things and I said you know, in a flexible diet, in context, these things are okay in small amounts, no big deal If it works for you. What I want to do is take somebody from a 60% ultra-processed standard American diet with probably three cans of regular Coke, to something better than that, at least as step one, and then continue down that line. So this kind of all or nothing like we need to eat clean, we need to cut everything out. How dare you tell your clients that they can drink diet soda? I think it's self-righteous at best and then it's unhelpful at worst. So if someone says okay, why, if there's a probability right in quotes of it being cancers? Why just be safe? Better safe than sorry? Why not just avoid it completely because of that answer?

Dustin Lambert: 9:45

is why just be safe? Better safe than sorry. Why not just avoid it completely because of that? Yeah, you could make that argument and, again, context matters. So it really depends on where you're starting from. So, like you said, you want to take somebody from an ultra-processed diet, where maybe they are consuming sugar-sweetened sodas or other sugar-sweetened beverages, and we want to gradually, over time, get them to something that's more whole food, single ingredient. You're consuming water, tea, stuff like that, so using it throughout that process and then even during fat loss phases. For if you're periodizing your nutrition plan, which you should be, it can be quite helpful in those cases, formalizing this logically wise though to make that argument. Well, if it's probably carcinogenic, why don't we just avoid all the things on the probable carcinogen? Stop driving your car. Stop wearing clothes that have dye in them. Using cell phones? Yeah, stop driving your car. Stop wearing clothes that have dye in them. You know like. Using cell phones. Yeah, stop using cell phones.

Philip Pape: 10:48

Using cell phones or being in the sun. Let's let's be like yep, yep, right, going out in the sun. So, dwayne, what are your thoughts on, from just again, the everyday guy nutrition plan, thinking about where you've come over the years, a lot of it with, with coach Lambie's guidance actually, is there something that you continue to enjoy? That's like a little bit of a vice, where it doesn't matter because what you do today in context is significant improvement from where you were before.

Dwayne Ulrich: 11:15

Man. So I don't know if that's a fair question in this context, because my vice is ice cream, so let's stick to soft drinks.

Philip Pape: 11:25

Well, what about all the ingredients in ice cream? Well, that's another podcast.

Dwayne Ulrich: 11:32

No, but you know, just for me it's like I've tried to like diet drinks and I can drink maybe half of a Coca-Cola or half of a Dr Pepper. Maybe Just after two or three or four sips of it I'm done. But I just wanted to add on to something you guys were talking about, especially in the aspartame thing. I did some research with Coach Lamb and we did a podcast on neotame and a while back we did a whole big old podcast on sweeteners and on the aspartame thing.

Dwayne Ulrich: 12:03

So yeah, it's a known carcinogen but I mean, you'd have to, you have to like consume like 80 something for 150 pound person. You'd have to consume like 80 packets or 17 or 18, you know diet drinks in a day to like even start to be considerate, concerned about it. So it's, it's like the thing you guys were just saying don't go outside, you know, don't breathe air. So as much as I would like to say coming into this podcast, as much as I'd like to say that, oh, yeah, yeah, diet drinks are bad for you. Diet drinks are bad for you. I think that there's a component of consuming diet drinks that can maybe turn against you. But man, I just I can't find a, I can't find a solid reason to say no, you know, or?

Dwayne Ulrich: 12:48

that it's bad, I can't.

Philip Pape: 12:50

Yeah, and we'll. I know what you're alluding to. We'll dive into some of the arguments people make against it. Besides, the artificial sweeteners, we'll definitely go there, but before we get to that, I just want to kind of close out the topic here on, maybe, maybe from Dustin's standpoint as the expert here, having looked at a lot of these and talked about them a lot on his podcast the different sweeteners we have aspartame, we have sucralose, we have stevia, which is not artificial, technically right, and we have neotame, which you guys talked about. What are the differences? What is the history and composition of those that we need to be aware of as we make these decisions?

Dustin Lambert: 13:24

that we need to be aware of as we make these decisions. In the grand scheme of things, I don't think we need to be aware of composition and how they're made and stuff. Yeah, so we have different sweeteners. We have some that are natural. We have some that are synthetic Aspartame I think I probably could make a good case that aspartame is about as unnatural as cheese is because, quite frankly, it's just two amino acids that are bonded together through a process of fermentation. Now it, like it, looks really scary when you look at pictures of the vats and everything and how fermentation is done. However, when you look at how butter is made today and how cheese is made today, uh, you know it don't get me started on prosciutto, man, yeah so you know, like, yeah, so the history of most of these things.

Dustin Lambert: 14:15

As far as, like, maybe stevia and some other stuff, you can go down to the hardware store, like closer home depot or something, and buy a stevia plant right and you you can touch, touch the leaves or taste leaves and they're sweet. So the process of getting sweeteners from plant sources and stuff is just kind of like the same as tea. You kind of boil them in water, boil the leaves or whatever in water, and then through a process of distillation you remove the water from that and you're left with the sweetener Synthetic sweeteners. On the other hand, some of them are made from natural chemicals and some are from man-made natural chemicals. Some of the processes can be scary to think about.

Dustin Lambert: 14:56

In the grand scheme of things, knowing what they're made of or how they're made, I don't think is important, but knowing the upper limits, as Duane alluded to.

Dustin Lambert: 15:05

So we have ADIs on these things. That's the advisable daily intake and that is set really conservatively low from what is known as the no observable adverse effect level. It's usually 100 times lower than that and that usually comes from rodent studies where we give rodents tons and tons and tons of this stuff until we start to see that bad things happen to them, right, and so we say okay, at this amount, which is usually like a milligram per kilogram amount. Per kilogram amount. They'll usually bring that down a hundred fold to give us our adi. So it it could be the case for some of them, um, like sucralose and saccharin, those the adis on those are are a little bit lower. So it might be like five diet sodas a day versus something like aspartame, which is like 17, where you're reaching the ADI. So you do run the possibility of reaching that upper limit where you may start to see some bad things happen. But I think that's the thing to be concerned with what contains?

Philip Pape: 16:14

sucralose.

Dustin Lambert: 16:16

Just tell it so the listener is aware just just remind, just tell it so the listeners aware.

Dwayne Ulrich: 16:25

Um yeah, let me see so sucralose is known as splenda, so anything that has splenda in it.

Philip Pape: 16:27

Yeah, yeah, splenda, splenda yeah, yeah, and I believe most, most like typical diet.

Dustin Lambert: 16:30

Sodas have aspartame, but they also have combinations yeah, ace k would be the other one, or acyl sulfane potassium aculfame potassium.

Philip Pape: 16:39

Is that in the same boat as Splenda or is that more like aspartame in terms of the toxicity level?

Dustin Lambert: 16:44

Well, toxicity, yeah, so it's more like aspartame. It is really a natural thing. So an interesting little tidbit about Ace K is Ace K can actually be used to detect how much urine is in pools, because we don't metabolize it. So every bit of it you excrete, like 99.99999% of the acyl sulfate, and so they've actually done some studies, and an Olympic-sized swimming pool on average contains about 70 gallons of urine.

Stephanie: 17:18

So okay, All right.

Philip Pape: 17:21

Hey, I'm glad you brought the Olympics into this. The transcript will have SEO, but that point about how much is absorbed metabolized is important as well. You guys did that episode on neotame. Thank you for doing that, because that's been coming up more often and that's one of the points you made was the level of absorption is so tiny, you have to account for that yeah.

Philip Pape: 17:44

So these are important. All right, let's move on to Okay. So I think we've established that there's a certain level that is far beyond what a typical human is going to consume, and even if it is five or six cans a day, maybe that's in excess for any particular thing. Anyway, for someone.

Philip Pape: 17:59

I'm guessing right. What about the evidence on? Let's go to the next thing body weight, weight management, because we hear two sides of the equation. We hear, on one hand, these are zero calorie beverages, so of course you're not consuming any calories, so that's a benefit for for intake. And you know, you feel something, you put something in your stomach, whether it's water, diet, soda doesn't have calories. Maybe that helps with weight management. On the other hand, all these claims about insulin being spiked and your sweet tooth is triggered, so now you're going to seek out other foods. Lay it out. What does the evidence say on all of this? And maybe we can break it down and go one by one, starting with just the weight management.

Dustin Lambert: 18:39

Yeah, so on the weight management aspect of it, which kind of ties into whether or not it causes you to consume more sweets or more food in general, those are kind of tied together. So what we're looking at is a discrepancy between experimental trials so people wouldn't know this as RCTs or randomized control trials, something like that and then what we see in epidemiology In randomized control trials, when we take people in and we put them in an experiment and we say, okay, we're going to randomize you guys, this group is going to get water, this group is going to get diet soda and we see what happens. People lose weight and we have trials as long as a year, going on a year long here. Let me see if I can find one. Yeah, so we have one titled non-nutritive sweetened beverages versus water after a 52-week weight management program, a randomized control trial. This is by Joanne Harold and colleagues trial. This is by Joanne Harold and colleagues, released in the Journal of Obesity in 2024. So very recent stuff, yeah. So when we put people through these trials where we're actually randomizing them to one group or the other and we're going to replace sugar-sweetened beverages with either an artificially sweetened beverage or some other beverage normally it's water, we see weight loss. We also see better adherence to weight management, weight loss management right. So people tend to lose more weight in the artificially sweetened beverage trial versus water, and they also are able to maintain more weight loss than the water arm.

Dustin Lambert: 20:17

When we look into epidemiology, what we see is that higher rates of adiposity, obesity, overweight, bmi all that stuff tends to correlate with higher intakes of artificially sweetened beverages, diet sodas We'll just use diet sodas to make everything easier. And so what a lot of the fear mongers, as you alluded to in the beginning. What a lot of them do is they will take the correlation, the association from the epidemiology and just kind of run with it. I say that's the results. Here it is, but we have a discrepancy between the two, and it doesn't exist in every prospective cohort. So we're talking about prospective cohorts here, but a lot of them do. So we have to explain why, we have to account for why this discrepancy exists, and so the reason for that is that in these prospective cohorts, a lot of times what we're missing is a temporal component. So we want to know if X came before Y or if Y became before X.

Dustin Lambert: 21:18

So did people start drinking diet soda before they became overweight and obese? Or does being overweight and obese necessarily lead to people consuming more artificially sweetened beverages or diet sodas in an attempt to gain weight loss or to maintain some amount of weight loss? There are other confounding factors. I hate to use the word confounding, I'd rather use the word mediating or moderating. There's other things like family history of obesity, all this stuff, and when we look at the cohorts and we take the ones that we actually have data for that we can actually make those adjustments right.

Dustin Lambert: 21:55

So reverse causality is what we're looking at. Did diet soda cause obesity or is obesity causing the consumption of diet soda? That would be reverse causality, and we adjust for all of these things. What we find then, is that that association that we're looking at actually goes away. Good meta-analysis here is by Lee and colleagues the relation of change or substitution of low and no-calorie student beverages with cardiometabolic outcomes, a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective cohorts and what they did is they took some cohorts that had the data that they needed to make these adjustments and they adjusted for reverse causality and some of these other things that might confound those results, and what they found is that actually, sugar, sweet or diet sodas are associated with weight loss small amount and weight maintenance, not the other way around.

Philip Pape: 22:54

I love how you split those up too, because, on one hand, we're actually looking at causality, like you said, with the randomized controlled trials, and then, on the other hand, it's just a bunch of data that had been observed and now we have to link it together properly and have it in the right time-based direction. Dwayne, what do you, what do you think about all this? I've heard how you talk with Coach Lambie on your podcast. It's it's so confusing, it's so overwhelming. The average person is not going to be reading a bunch of papers, let alone reading one paper. And they're trusting us, they're trusting people. What are your thoughts on that, this or in general?

Dwayne Ulrich: 23:29

Well, just a couple of things. One of the things that I looked at real quick. I just want to put this out there before I forget about it but I looked at a study that came out of Harvard and so like, for some of the sweeteners and some of the soft drinks, particularly aspartame, had a tendency in animal trials to affect the animal's brain in such a way that it didn't know when to stop eating. Now that sounds like I'm fighting for the other side. I believe that what the data shows us, as Coach Lambie showed it, is that it can help you with the weight loss or at least maintain, and that seems to be the overwhelming deal there. But anecdotally, I see people that in my own life just people that I know that they drink a lot of artificially sweetened soft drinks. For them they maintain. Most of the time they maintain. I know people that are already obese that drink artificial soft drinks. Do they get bigger? Not over my experience, not for as long as I've known some of these people.

Dwayne Ulrich: 24:38

But I do believe there's a responsibility on the individual. Going back to nutrition, because if you just drink that and think that's going to help you lose weight, that may not be really the case for you. But by the same token, if you're tanking on soft drinks that are artificially sweetened, there's a possibility for you to eat more. I see that as a thing, just anecdotally from what I know. And then when I go look at things like the Harvard study, I'm like maybe there is some causality there. It kind of helps you forget when you need to stop eating. I do see that. So what is it? I can't find any reason to tell somebody you shouldn't drink that because you're just going to gain weight. That doesn't make sense. It's just not a sensical conversation or an argument. And when you look at the data like Coach Lambie just went through, yeah, it doesn't really bear out. I mean, yeah, there's a possibility that maybe it affects your brain and you just don't know when to stop eating. I think that's an exception more than it is a rule.

Philip Pape: 25:41

Does that make sense? Yeah, and it makes total sense. And you're hitting on the nuance here. There's so much nuance. What comes to mind for me is if I had a client who we're going to do fat loss, I'm not going to prescribe them Diet Coke, but if they were drinking regular Coke and said I really crave these things, I can't help, I drink them all the time, we'd have the discussion Hmm, have you tried Diet Coke? Like, why don't we try that? Like let's experiment and see, right. And that's one thing that comes to mind. Another is I think we're trying to add the nuance so that people don't think like Diet Coke absolutely causes weight gain, because we see that that's not the case either.

Dwayne Ulrich: 26:21

Correct.

Philip Pape: 26:22

And things are personalized. And you're right, who knows? With the context of these individuals? I grew up in households that there was a lot of Diet Coke consumption and you're right, I see it in obese populations. There's a lot of that and, like Dustin said, there's confounding, mitigating factors going on and maybe they just incorporated it at some point, hoping to lose weight, but nothing else changed. And now you're like, okay, what are we really looking at here? So the data is important, but also the individual. You know history with this.

Dwayne Ulrich: 26:49

Right.

Philip Pape: 26:50

Do you think, dustin, we cover the first piece right of? It probably doesn't cause weight gain and it probably is a helpful tool for a lot of people, especially when substituting something with calories. Just okay, good.

Stephanie: 27:03

We're in agreement, do you?

Dustin Lambert: 27:03

want me to elaborate on that. No, no, no.

Philip Pape: 27:05

That was like. I'm like blabbering, I'm rambling on here.

Stephanie: 27:09

The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment. It was just well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it, and then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that and there's a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help, and Philip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape: 28:26

Let's go to the next thing, which is enjoyment. So what about the fact that it tastes sweet drink enjoyment? It has carbonation, all of that stuff. Where does that come in?

Dustin Lambert: 28:36

Yeah, so it does taste sweet. So all of the sweeteners are some multiple thousands of times sweeter than sugar, which allows us to use a lot less of them. As Dwayne alluded to, he doesn't really like the taste of it. So I'm with you. My clients are a little bit different than yours, where I'm dealing with people who are knocking on the doorstep of diabetes and in those cases I am often am prescribing it because many people are drinking, you know, six to 10 sugar sweetened sodas a day, and it's kind like well, hey, listen, like I get it.

Dustin Lambert: 29:13

There's more to this than just the food, right, there's a genetic aspect to it. There's also a psychological aspect to all of this stuff and it's like I, I, I understand it. Uh, so let's start maneuvering our way into, you know, instead of six to eight regular sodas a day to six to eight diet sodas a day, and then again the time. You know, I tell everybody like it doesn't matter where we get in the next six months, what's important is where we get in the next six years. So even if we're consuming a 12 pack of diet soda a day right now, right, as long as there's an exit strategy to get to that point, we need to be there.

Dustin Lambert: 29:49

It does, you know, handle the sweet tooth. When I go through fat loss phases and I'm craving sweet things myself, a diet soda often does alleviate whatever that craving is. You know, the carbonation in it also helps. I think people feel full and that can help during weight loss periods or fat loss phases. You know, you're not always going to outrun the ghrelin monster forever. It's going to catch up with you at some point.

Dustin Lambert: 30:15

So again, nuance to all of this stuff. But yeah, it can cure. Not cure, but it can help alleviate sweet tooth cravings. It can help with that psychological aspect of you. Know, I've been drinking soda for a while now and I, I love them. I don't want to give them up, uh. So okay, well, let's just let's swap over to this that reduces the amount of sugar intake that that my clients are seeing, which brings their fasting glucose down, their hba1c down, all that stuff. So yeah, for the everyday person, um, you know, if you're, if you're looking to maybe reduce intake of certain foods that are sweet or whatever the case may be, diet, soda certainly can help in that aspect.

Philip Pape: 31:01

Yeah, I agree. I'm actually in fat loss again now and I typically will have a can of diet soda almost once every day during fat loss, just in the afternoon, like I'm doing right now, because it it fits in that window, it hydrates me and it tastes good. I mean, I don't see anything wrong with it and that's kind of what we're here to to give people that peace of mind of it's okay, it's okay, it's like. You know what do you think, duane?

Dwayne Ulrich: 31:25

yeah, oh I, I completely agree. It's like um, yeah, I for one thing. It's like the long term is is thinking it in short term. You have to think in a longer term. We all like to change things right away. We're in a hurry, I've got to have it now. I've got to change right now. I've got to lose all this weight right now. I've got to stop being a diabetic today. It's a process. It's a process compared to sugar-sweetened soft drinks, what they call SSB, sugar-sweetened beverages. Man, the amount of sugar in a regular soda water, man, I'm just kind of sorry I started reading that, but it's staggering.

Philip Pape: 32:08

So, yeah, I think the artificially sweetened soft drinks, it's a definite plus, it's a definite plus, and I'll tell you a few times you mentioned the amount of sugar A couple times. I might have gone and asked for a fountain soda at a place and they gave me the sweetened version of it instead of the diet, and usually I can tell that they're really good. With the Coke Zeros and everything, it almost tastes the same. So I'm drinking it and I'm getting that kind of sweet smacking kind of taste, but I just finish it thinking in my head like no, no, they gave me the diet. And then I come to find they didn't and I'm like, okay, that's 300 calories right there, like I just make sure to track it sometimes you can almost feel it feels like fur on your teeth.

Dwayne Ulrich: 32:45

What was that?

Philip Pape: 32:47

yeah, of course like you said, some people don't like the artificial sweetener and you don't have to drink this stuff. We're not saying it and there could be haters and trolls on this. In fact, I welcome you guys who are like how dare you tell us to drink any diet soda, eat any seed oils, blah, blah, blah. We love it. Bring it on. So, dustin, did we address the part about whether it causes you to eat more? I mean, we address that studies show it doesn't cause weight gain, but what about this idea that it both spikes your blood sugar but and or causes you to eat more? Yeah, okay, so there are two different things. Let's start with the eat more thing.

Dustin Lambert: 33:22

Yeah, the eat more thing. Okay, um, so, yeah. So if we're looking at the epidemiology and we would see that, um, higher rates of of overweight and obesity correlate with higher consumption of diet sodas, and then we also might just observe people in our own lives who have been overweight their whole life and they always drink diet soda and we're like, well, that's not helping out at all. So I can see where that idea comes from, comes from. And then, as Duane alluded to, we certainly do have rodent studies where they give them artificial sweeteners and it leads to an increase in spontaneous consumption of calories, hitting on the rodent stuff. And this goes into gut microbiome research and cancer research as well. So there have been several papers. I brought up a couple of them in our artificial food coloring episodes and then there was one that came out very, very recently in dealing with cancer. I believe I don't have that one pulled up, but Dr Allo, dr Muhammad Allo, he brought that up on Twitter what we see from rodent research regarding translation to human outcomes. So if we just look at the amount of rodent research where we might be trying to develop a drug or something to treat human disease, the amount of drugs that we'd start testing in rodents and even psychological outcomes and even cancer outcomes. That actually makes it to first phase clinical human trials and then even less once we get to FDA. Approval of things translates to about 5%. So 95% of the rodent research that's out there does not translate to human outcomes, okay, okay.

Dustin Lambert: 35:09

So if we have a rodent study that shows we give rodents this sweetener and it spontaneously increases their calorie consumption, we might look at a few things how much of it are they giving? You know, what is the length of exposure that they're allowed to have, all these things. But then the other aspect is that, well, it probably doesn't translate very well to human outcomes because we have human randomized control trials where we give people diet soda and they don't eat more, they eat less. So just substituting and a lot of these trials that we're talking about. We're talking about a substitution of two beverages a day, so two cans.

Dustin Lambert: 35:55

Substitution of two beverages a day, so two cans. 12 ounce cans of soda per day is the is, uh, what most of these trials shoot for with a minimum of three sodas per week. So even at a minimum of three sodas per week, we are seeing spontaneous weight loss. So whatever is happening there as far as the impact that these might have on brain regulation or gut regulation is leading people to eat less. It's not the other way around, right, because when we actually test it, what happens when we give people diet soda and we're actually measuring these outcomes? People lose weight. They don't gain weight.

Philip Pape: 36:28

So do you think it simply comes down to energy balance at the end of the day here and that there are no other aspects of the in our guts or gut? So also all that?

Dustin Lambert: 36:55

stuff. And then we also know that gut microbiota or um, what's the term? I'm looking here for laura the um, no, the whole thing. So I saw our entire digestive tract right. So there's all stuff going on and we have a gut brain and we have drugs out now that stimulate hormones that are produced in response to things that happen in our gut and that signals our brain. So I certainly think that there's something happening there.

Dustin Lambert: 37:23

We do know that there are changes that happen to certain microbiota or flora within our gut when we consume. A lot of people take that as being negative. However, when we look at the outcomes, I would have to say that those changes have to be a positive effect, because we're seeing the outcomes that we want to see. We're seeing people lose weight, we're seeing lower fasting glucose numbers. Long-term HbA1c comes down a little bit, but a lot of those trials just aren't long enough to notice a change there or they're not looking at it.

Dustin Lambert: 37:58

Yeah, so so is it? Does it just come down to calories, like is it just that I'm replacing 150 calories with zero calories? I don't think so, uh, because the amount of weight loss that we're seeing would lead us to believe a little bit more. I think that whatever's happening to the changes in the gut and the changes whatever may be happening in response to that in the brain is spontaneously causing people to eat just a little bit less. It's not huge, all right it's. This isn't magical and it's not going to get. It's not the staff of Moses here. So yeah, but I think that there is something else to it.

Philip Pape: 38:32

That's an interesting one, cause we've now we're we're almost taking the benefit even that one step further. The gut health thing is talked about more often now as as a negative and, like you said, maybe there's something else going on. If we use the transitive property right, like if you do this and then on this side, it results in weight loss and we know gut health and cognitive function, whatever also affects that weight loss, beyond what energy balance would explain. Therefore, the diet soda is doing something. I mean I, I get that logic. Yeah, we have the comparison to water.

Dustin Lambert: 39:02

So we have zero calorie versus zero calorie and in the diet soda arms, they lose more weight. So there has to be something that's happening there that's causing just a little bit more of a calorie deficit, which we can only assume is people are eating less.

Philip Pape: 39:20

Could it be the satiety effects of it? Sure, have they compared carbonated pure water as?

Dustin Lambert: 39:27

well to soda, yep, yep. So when we compare the diet soda to the water arms, people are allowed to have carbonated beverages and a lot of these trials are free living trials. It's not a metabolic ward study. A lot of these are free living right, so people are just at home doing stuff. So what happens when we give people diet soda and they're at home and they're not advised to try to lose weight and we're looking at a carbonated, artificially sweetened beverage? And a lot of these are not just diet soda, but it's also the waters that you can get, the flavored and sweetened waters that are zero calorie, that are carbonated. But in the water arms they also are allowed to have carbonated water. So it's not just an effect of well, maybe this one has carbonation, this one's plain water. There's something more there.

Philip Pape: 40:15

And could it be just psychological hunger? Because I feel like even in my own personal experience, it takes away the craving. It kind of rubs that itch and therefore you don't eat. And it's as simple as that. What do you think it could be? Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. Well, whatever it is for an individual, they can they can look at the data and see what happens.

Dwayne Ulrich: 40:33

And so I agree, I agree with that. I read some studies about, uh, the carbonated water also kind of having the same effect. I agree there's something more about the diet soda as opposed to just carbonated water. But carbonated water has a more, I think, a more intense effect than just plain water itself. And I want to go back to the rodent thing I said earlier because I don't want people to misunderstand about, you know, certain sweeteners causing you know animal trials to where they didn't know when to stop eating. The thing Coach Lambie said about when we're using rodent studies, a lot of times what they're pushing for is they're just pushing for the maximum amount. When do we get an adverse effect? So I think we were doing a study on neotame on our podcast. You know when do we get an adverse effect? So I think we were doing a study on neotame on our podcast, and so they gave the animal subject. Like what, coach? Was it 7,000 times what the normal would be?

Dustin Lambert: 41:31

That one was just a petri dish.

Dwayne Ulrich: 41:32

Oh well, petri dish.

Dustin Lambert: 41:34

Oh no, no, I just referenced stuff in the past that we looked at.

Dwayne Ulrich: 41:39

Yeah, but it's just massive. But they give massive amounts to. I mean, just look at the. We talked earlier about aspartame. Well, good lands, you've got to drink 17, 18 sodas before there's any adverse effects. I don't want people to be misled.

Dustin Lambert: 41:54

Not even that. That's just to reach the ADI.

Dwayne Ulrich: 41:56

Yeah and I don't want people to be misled by that that that's, oh my gosh, something bad's going to happen. So there's obviously something happening in the gut biome that you know. Something's happening down there.

Philip Pape: 42:07

I don't really know what it is, but I think it's effective the longevity guys pushing low protein based on rats and I just I drew the line there. I'm like no, no, we're not doing that. Okay, let's talk about insulin response. Okay, I think that's the other one here right, cause you do talk about prescribing this for diabetics as a alternative to sweeters. But let's take people who maybe weren't drinking diet soda at all. Maybe in randomized controlled trials they've looked at this. You add it in. Does it affect your blood sugar?

Dustin Lambert: 42:46

Yes, it affects blood sugar. So we can speak to the fear mongers because I think this is another criticism that people have about it is that, well, this thing is sweet, right, and when you taste it, your brain thinks it's receiving sugar, and that stimulates the production of insulin and that leads to insulin resistance. Okay, so, not even just going into trials, but if we just logic this argument out here, okay, so let's just say, for the sake of argument, that that's happening right. As soon as it hits your taste bud, your brain goes ah, there's sugar release, insulin. Well, number one. That's not how insulin is released. Again, let's just say that it is all right. So let's say that it's a big bolus of insulin, right. So your brain thinks that you're getting whatever seven teaspoons of sugar, and so it signals to your pancreas to release the amount of insulin to dispose of seven teaspoons of sugar.

Dustin Lambert: 43:49

If I woke up first thing in the morning without eating anything and I drank this diet soda here and my pancreas released enough insulin to dispose of the amount of sugar that would be in a sugar-sweetened soda, I would go into hypoglycemic shock, right, it would induce vomiting, it would induce nausea, I would probably lose my vision and I would most likely become unconscious. Now that's not happening because I haven't eaten anything today and I, this monster, and I am also drinking this Diet Coke, so that's not happening. Okay, so it's not a large bolus of insulin. Maybe it's a small one, right? Maybe it's a little bit. Okay, fine, let's say that that's happening.

Dustin Lambert: 44:34

If you are of the position which most of them are, that high blood sugar is bad and you need to reduce that, you should be having as little amount of stored glucose in your liver and your muscles and everything as glycogen as possible. What would small amounts of insulin do? If I just had this diet soda and I didn't eat anything and I had high blood sugar and I had fatty liver maybe and fatty liver can come from excess glycogen within the liver Well, these small amounts of liver would reduce my homeostatic blood sugar, my blood glucose level, fasting glucose levels, just a little bit, and that reduction would signal glucagon to tell my liver that blood sugar has come down. Please release some glucose into the bloodstream to bring us back to homeostasis. If I did that several times a day over the course of weeks and months, what I would end up with is a liver with lower glycogen stores and also lower glycogen stores in my muscle and also a lower fasting glucose level. So if that were happening, I'm not really sure how you could make the case that that's a bad thing, right? So that's one.

Dustin Lambert: 45:52

Number two it doesn't stimulate insulin. Okay, so the way insulin is stimulated is that your pancreas has a large artery runs right through it and it pulls blood out of that artery to sense how much glucose is floating around in your bloodstream and that's how it knows how much insulin right, and also receives some signals from the liver. The liver and the pancreas work together to keep blood sugar levels stable. That's why type 1 diabetics have such issues. Also type 2 diabetics, right, because at some point they start losing control of that thing and you no longer have homeostasis. You start dipping into dangerously low levels or dangerously high levels.

Dustin Lambert: 46:32

People love social media. There are tons and tons of videos of people out there wearing a CGM and will drink a diet soda and show you it does absolutely nothing. It does nothing, so they don't stimulate insulin. Now let me put the caveat. Okay, so I will say as far as like an insulin resistance aspect goes, I have seen some stuff on sucralose that would give me pause in recommending that, right? So that's the Splenda. So yeah, I have seen some stuff. So there is another guy on YouTube and he did a pretty good three or four week look into sucralose and looking at insulin resistance and there's something there that gives me pause. I think maybe if you were to have a little bit of that, so one packet of it or something in your tea for lunch, probably not going to be a big deal, but that would be the only one.

Philip Pape: 47:23

All right, yeah, just want to put that to bed for people Again. If you just look anecdotally and, like you said, logically follow it through, people aren't getting, you know, insulin shock, as if they just injected themselves on a regular basis Because guess what? A lot of people are drinking them while they're fasting, so you would see this often. So, man, we'll take care of those intermittent fasters right now.

Dwayne Ulrich: 47:48

Just feed them a bunch of diet soda.

Philip Pape: 47:49

Okay, so that's good. So we're ticking off all the boxes here, I think. And we sort of alluded to how it of course helps with weight management, it helps with diabetes. Is there anything in the realm of cardiovascular disease stroke we wanted to cover? I mean specifically because obviously those risks also come down in concert with these other risks coming down.

Dustin Lambert: 48:07

Yeah, those risks come down. So if you substitute some sugar-sweetened sodas with artificially sweetened sodas, you're drinking diet sodas now and you managed to lose some weight. Obviously you're dealing with fewer carbohydrates coming in. That's going to have an effect on blood glucose. Let's put all of that aside and look at where we have adjusted for weight loss and other things. Do diet sodas have an impact in and of themselves on certain risk factors for cardiovascular disease, diabetes and stuff In terms of diabetes? I don't think that in and of itself it has anything that really has to do with lowering your carbohydrate intake and also the weight loss. Now there is an effect on blood pressure that's seen independent of weight loss, independent of anything else, and when we compare diet soda to water again, what we end up seeing is a reduction of about 2.5, about 2.6 millimeters of mercury systolic. So that's the top number. That's independent of weight loss alone. We did an episode on coffee not too long ago and we saw kind of a similar effect there.

Philip Pape: 49:18

So hold on these. Caffeine containing soda. Caffeine containing soda yeah, okay, not diet, this is not with caffeine free.

Dustin Lambert: 49:26

Right, Not caffeine free. Yeah, so it would be just low calorie, no calorie. Sweetened beverages in general I'm just using the word diet soda to be the simple here right, so they may contain caffeine and they may not. But overall, when meta-analyzed, what we see is that artificial sweetened beverages tend to lower blood pressure just a little bit more than water when we substitute sugar sweetened beverages. So it's about two and a half millimeters of mercury systolic top number.

Dustin Lambert: 49:58

It's estimated by the American Heart Association that a three millimeter of mercury reduction in systolic blood pressure on an individual basis is clinically meaningful. So on itself all alone it almost gets you to that clinically meaningful reduction. Right, If you manage to lose weight now, you're in a clinically meaningful reduction. So that reduces your risk of coronary heart disease and it also reduces your risk of stroke. On a national level, on a population level, 5.5 millimeters of mercury, that would lead to a 15% reduction in coronary heart disease and a 27% reduction in stroke. So that's at 5.5.

Dustin Lambert: 50:50

So if we do some quick math here, we go down to 2.5, 2.6, what we're looking at on a nationwide level would be somewhere around a 6% or 7% reduction in coronary heart disease incident, Not risk incidence of coronary heart disease and somewhere around a 12% reduction in stroke incidence. So coronary heart disease, we're talking about stuff like heart attacks and other things like sudden heart failure, pectoral angina, all that stuff. There's about 800,000 people who have heart attacks every year and there's about 800,000 people who have strokes every year. What that results to if this were to be the case, if we could get a nationwide reduction of 2.5 millimeters of mercury systolic blood pressure, that would be about 40,000 fewer heart attacks every year and about 100,000 fewer strokes.

Philip Pape: 51:42

So, dwayne, you're going to start drinking diet soda now, right, not only do we say it's not bad for you, it's good for you, it's good for you. We got some diet root beer in the fridge right now the root beer is caffeine free, so just make sure you pick the time of day you want it.

Dwayne Ulrich: 51:57

Oh, I drink my coffee. I do drink coffee.

Philip Pape: 52:00

Yeah, yeah, ah, it's so fascinating. Right With the blood pressure, is there a concurrent reduction in blood lipids like LDL? Do they have data on that, because that's again another factor for CBD.

Dustin Lambert: 52:12

Yeah, so there is reduction in blood lipids. I think that probably has more to do with the weight loss than anything.

Philip Pape: 52:18

Wow, crazy. So yeah, seriously, we are delivering on the promise of this episode so far. I think that there is a case that it can be good in some cases for certain people, in certain contexts. I'm going to keep saying that. Oh, speaking of coffee, you guys drink cryo brew. You ever tried that? It's a brewed coffee. So I mean brewed chocolate.

Dustin Lambert: 52:39

It's brewed, chocolate brewed oh, that's my alley here.

Philip Pape: 52:41

Yes, yeah, check it out, attention, check it out. So it's got almost no caffeine. So for me it's like having coffee at night. You know, I can have that cup of coffee at night again during fat loss. It's kind of like diet soda it itches, the flavor and the craving and the having something in your mouth, but with the more um, the bitterness and like thickness of coffee, of a coffee.

Philip Pape: 53:00

Yeah, I'm a foodie, if you couldn't tell, I could. So, speaking of so, where does caffeine fit into all this? And that's why I alluded to it, because that's a strong factor, I imagine, depending on what you're studying.

Dustin Lambert: 53:13

Yeah, so the caffeine? So you know caffeine levels vary between diet sodas. So what I found between the diet soda stuff and the coffee stuff is that caffeine is a diuretic, so it will cause you to pee more. However, diet sodas are 95% water. We don't see dehydration happening from consumption of diet soda or coffee. That's not happening, and so, despite caffeine being a diuretic, it just may be that you're drinking enough water along with it to counteract that effect. Duane, did you look into the sodium excretion?

Dwayne Ulrich: 53:51

yeah, it's. It's kind of. It's kind of just um, and it's kind of like social media fodder, just like, uh, being dehydrated because you drink too much caffeine or you eat too much coffee. The same thing with diet drinks. It's just social media fodder. It's like, oh my gosh, you're going to deplete your potassium levels because you're going to start offloading all this stuff because it's diuretic. We saw in our podcast on caffeine that it doesn't hold true to the data.

Dustin Lambert: 54:22

It doesn't, so I don't think that that's an issue at all, I think there may be some effect of increased sodium excretion to go along with it. So, in terms of the coffee, there was a trial that we looked at where they did measure sodium excretion and it was higher in the coffee group than the water group, is higher in the coffee group than the water group. So the fact that we see blood pressure reductions independent of weight loss, from from artificial, artificially suited beverages that may have caffeine, I think there may be a case to be made there too that you're having an increased sodium excretion from that which is going to put the hydration status, but also with the blood pressure thing yeah, that's and that's a positive.

Dwayne Ulrich: 54:58

But again, going back to what I was saying is like, as far as other base minerals in your body, you're not going to deplete things like potassium, magnesium and stuff like that. There is a sodium offload. That is a boost. I mean that's a plus. But I was just saying overall elements in your body. It's just you're not going to offload a bunch of stuff. That's going to hurt you.

Philip Pape: 55:18

Go eat a banana, go eat a banana.

Dwayne Ulrich: 55:20

Absolutely not going to offload a bunch of stuff to hurt you Go eat a banana?

Philip Pape: 55:23

Go eat a banana, Absolutely Actually this.

Philip Pape: 55:28

Then sodium comes up as a thing too because the soda I'm drinking has 60 milligrams and some diet sodas have quite a bit more 200, 200 something milligrams. And I know, coach Lamba, you're big into not over subscribing to the fact that we're under salted. Right, there's this narrative that we're all under salted and maybe some people have too much salt and it's causing high blood pressure. It's interesting because there is a lot of salt. I guess I don't know Relative. Is it a decent amount of sodium that we should be worried about? It sounds like it reduces your blood pressure, so maybe not.

Dustin Lambert: 55:56

Is there a lot of sodium in the diet sodas? Yes, yes, yeah. So it varies from one to the. You know, I think diet coke has like 55 milligrams of sodium, 40 milligrams of sodium, so so it varies. Like, am I concerned about somebody having a diet soda with 40 milligrams of sodium three or four times a day? Not really, you know. So we're looking to stay under 2300 for the day. You know, if you have three or four diet cokes, you know we're at 200, like there's plenty left to salt your food.

Philip Pape: 56:24

All right, all right. Um, there's one other benefit I thought of, and that is a cavity cavity risk.

Dwayne Ulrich: 56:30

Oh yeah.

Philip Pape: 56:31

Which.

Dwayne Ulrich: 56:32

I took a deep doubt on this. I just oh, did you.

Philip Pape: 56:34

Okay.

Dwayne Ulrich: 56:35

Yeah, I found it fascinating. So I think we just need, first of all, we need to take a look at sugar sweetened beverages first. It's just like your mama said, that stuff's going to rot your teeth out. So for a child, there's a term for it. I just can't remember what it is Primary dentin, I can't remember.

Dwayne Ulrich: 56:54

Anyway, for a child, sugar sweetened beverages are just caustic, just tear the child's teeth up. If they drink a little bit of a soda man, you need to wash those teeth out and brush them. And then in your teens, your young adulthood, it doesn't have quite an effect. An older person I'm still talking about sugar-sweetened beverages so for an older person, you don't have the cavity issue but you have an erosion. It increases erosion in your teeth.

Dwayne Ulrich: 57:25

But now going to the artificially sweetened ones, so there's a thing that happens is that I think it's called karyogenic is that when your body, when you drink a sugar sweetened beverage, the sugars break down into an acid and so that's what's tearing up the enamel in your teeth. So artificially sweetened beverages aren't karyogenic, so your body doesn't take that stuff and generate an acid. So there's really not much impact on your teeth, even on what's called a primary dentinate I think it is, and middle age, like so early teens to 20-something and even adults. There's not that much of an impact there. The only impact that I found in studies that I was looking at was that artificial sweeteners are used a lot on foods or treats, especially that are highly acidic, and so whatever you're going to get is probably going to be coming from a higher acidic type food or treat or sweets or whatever Gosh. The first thing that comes to my mind is those nasty little like the worms and the.

Philip Pape: 58:33

The gummy worms.

Dwayne Ulrich: 58:33

Put the sugar on them, sour patch gummy worms, sour patch kids, those, I hate those things. But so you know, if you find those with artificial sweeteners, you know it's not the sweetener that's tearing you up, it's going to be just the acid from the food. Sure, sure. So it's a plus.

Philip Pape: 58:50

I mean, all right, hey, we're busting this stuff in right, can you have the sugar sweetened beverages? Pshe, phosphoric acid is an ingredient in soda and that might be a cool episode for you guys to do, because that's another one that has been fear mongered with like they'll show teeth in a vat of phosphoric acid and it's like rotting away, and then you look at the amount that have to be exposed to for long periods of time, far beyond just what your saliva rinses from you and hopefully you brush your teeth.

Philip Pape: 59:19

It's a non-concern, but it's interesting how the acidity from the sugar breaking down is more the concern, and then the artificial sweetener tends to solve that problem via substitution. So now we're just finding so many cool things here today. So, guys, as we wrap up, I think we've addressed the general premise here about whether diet soda is harmful or not, and in what context and what the evidence is, and we're kind of scratching the surface, because I realize there's a lot out there. Is there one thing that we didn't cover that you wish I had brought up?

Dustin Lambert: 59:51

Yeah On whether or not these things are banned in Europe. Wow.

Dwayne Ulrich: 59:55

Didn't even think of that.

Philip Pape: 59:56

Okay, that's a good one, let's go there.

Dustin Lambert: 59:59

Yeah, so that's a common criticism on a line by the fear mongers, and you know the answer is, quite frankly, no. So what people are missing about things that are supposedly banned in Europe? So they'll say a lot of things are banned in Europe. Bha, bht I think aspartame was the latest one. Europe doesn't use the word. They have an e-designation for food additives. So if you want to go and look at it, you can just Google European Food Safety Authority food additive list and you'll find e-designations for things. Aspartame is under the e-designation E951. Ak is E950. Sucralose is E955. Yeah, so these things aren't banned in Europe. The people that you're listening to just don't know anything. There we go.

Philip Pape: 1:00:48

Anything to add to that, Dwayne?

Dwayne Ulrich: 1:00:51

No, but well, I will add this there are some plant extracts that are banned in Europe as well, Like cannabis. Cannabis good Maybe that's a podcast for one of us to do. Yeah, I'm with coach on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape: 1:01:09

I mean, I tend to my skepticism. Hairs go way up when you say Europe or California.

Dustin Lambert: 1:01:14

So yeah, same difference man.

Philip Pape: 1:01:16

Same difference.

Philip Pape: 1:01:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, man Cool. So your friends? Yeah, yeah, all right, man Cool. So this has been awesome. I think we had fun. I think I learned a few things that I didn't know, which is always real, real gold. When I have these conversations, I do want to ask you where you want people to find, you guys. But since, for sure, you have a podcast, the working way to LLC podcast, is there a specific episode that I'm thinking the artificial sweetener one, but maybe another one that you want to send them to and we can throw it in the show notes?

Dustin Lambert: 1:01:40

The artificial sweetener one would probably be good. It ties right into this. And then there is the artificial food dyes. I think would be another excellent one for people to listen to, to get a better idea on how to kind of understand the research regarding these food additives. Cool.

Philip Pape: 1:01:56

Yeah, that's a good one. Especially, people talk about protein powders, for example, which have sometimes have the dyes in them and they're consuming lots of them, so we'll I'll include a couple of those in there.

Dwayne Ulrich: 1:02:06

I'm going to point them towards caffeine, the coffee thing.

Philip Pape: 1:02:08

The coffee one. Yeah, yeah, all right. So we're going to have a nice library of links in here Point people to. Is there anything else you want to send them to IG or anything else?

Dustin Lambert: 1:02:22

Not really. I am on Instagram, but not terribly. I'm just not too terribly active on social media, so the podcast is probably the best way, sounds good, dwayne, same thing.

Philip Pape: 1:02:28

Just go to the podcast.

Dwayne Ulrich: 1:02:29

Yeah, go to the podcast, Absolutely.

Philip Pape: 1:02:31

All right, man. Well, thanks guys for coming on. We threw this together last minute this week and it came together really nicely and I hope people learned a ton. That's the goal is to learn to be curious, to apply this to themselves, to ask questions, don't just assume that what you see on Instagram is correct and that's the way we do it. Thanks for coming on, guys. Yeah.

Dwayne Ulrich: 1:02:49

Good deal.

Philip Pape: 1:02:50

Yeah, thanks for having us Thanks a lot.

How Your Spaces Are Sabotaging Your Fat Loss (The 6S Method) | Ep 207

Are your personal spaces getting in the way of consistency with your nutrition or training?

Learn about how the 6S method from engineering can make it much easier to achieve your goals. You can transform your kitchen and gym into powerful allies by reducing friction. It's about making small yet impactful changes.

What is 6S?

1. Sort

2. Set in order

3. Shine

4. Standardize

5. Sustain

6. Safety

Listen to the episode for a definition and some examples for each!

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

Main Takeaways:

• Your environment plays a crucial role in your fat loss success, often more than willpower alone.

• The 6S method (Sort, Set in Order, Shine, Standardize, Sustain, Safety) can be applied to optimize your spaces for fat loss, making healthy choices easier and more consistent.

• Small, strategic changes to your environment can lead to big improvements in consistency and results by reducing decision fatigue.

Episode summary:

Can your environment be the secret weapon to achieving your fitness goals? On this episode of Wits and Weights, we unravel how the 6S method from engineering can revolutionize your journey towards a lean physique. By sorting, setting in order, shining, standardizing, sustaining, and ensuring safety, you can transform your kitchen and gym into powerful allies. We dive into the nitty-gritty of reducing friction and making small yet impactful changes, like placing nutritious snacks at eye level or keeping your gym bag visible, to support your meal and workout plans.

In the first chapter, we explore how your environment can either support or sabotage your fitness goals. Using the 6S method from engineering as a systematic approach to optimize your spaces, we discuss how sorting, setting in order, shining, standardizing, sustaining, and ensuring safety can transform your kitchen, gym, and other spaces into powerful allies in your quest for a leaner physique. By eliminating unnecessary items, organizing what's left, keeping areas clean and functional, and maintaining these practices, you can reduce friction and enhance your consistency in sticking to your meal and workout plans. Practical examples, such as arranging nutritious snacks at eye level or placing your gym bag in a visible spot, illustrate how small changes in your environment can lead to significant improvements in your fitness journey.

Next, we focus on identifying and overcoming obstacles in your fitness journey, specifically through the application of the 6S method to optimize your environment for success. We explore how to create a personalized plan for fat loss, muscle building, or body recomposition by understanding what is holding you back and providing a three-step action plan for immediate results within 90 days. Additionally, I offer free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessments to help you clarify your goals and develop a concrete strategy. Remember to keep using your wits and lifting those weights as you work towards your fitness goals.

The first step in the 6S method is sorting, which is about eliminating things that are unnecessary. This could be physically clearing out things that you just don't want or need, like those tortilla chips or the snacks or the candy in your pantry, drawer, or fridge. It could be eliminating things from your home gym that you don't use so that you have space for things that you do, and it could even be prioritizing the things that are important to you in your calendar, such as training. By sorting, you create a clean and clear environment that makes it easier to make progress.

The next step is setting in order, which involves organizing what's left after you sort. In your kitchen, this might mean putting the snacks that you really want—maybe they're the high nutrient density, lower calorie snacks—at eye level in your fridge, in the front of the cabinet, or in the front of your drawer. Putting these items where you see them before you see the higher calorie options helps you make healthier choices. This principle can also be applied to your home gym or even your equipment that you take to the gym, ensuring that everything is easy to see and get to.

Shining, the third step, is about keeping your environment clean and functional. Think of it like feng shui; a clean kitchen, for example, makes your meal prep more appealing. Keeping your counter clean and functional by organizing your kitchen appliances and utensils can go a long way. This principle can be applied to other areas of your life as well, like your tool chest or your basement, where organizing things can reduce stress and make tasks easier.

Standardizing, the fourth step, is about creating systems and routines. This could involve setting reminders in your calendar or phone, setting an alarm, or putting a post-it note on the fridge to remind you to do something. For example, always packing your lunch the night before or having a set meal prep day each week can help you stay on track. By standardizing your routines, you reduce friction and make it easier to stick to your plan.

Sustaining, the fifth step, is about maintaining the changes you've made. Once you've created a clean, well-sorted, shiny, functional environment, you're likely to take pride in it. This pride can help you maintain the changes and create habits that reinforce the systems you've put in place. Sustaining your environment can lead to continued progress and success.

The final step, safety, is about ensuring that your environment helps you feel safe, less stressed, and confident in what you're doing. In a home gym, this could mean having the right equipment to ensure your physical safety. In your kitchen, it could mean having a clean and organized space that makes meal prep easier and less stressful. By creating a safe environment, you can reduce burnout and support your progress.

Throughout the episode, we discuss how willpower is a finite resource. Every time you have to make a decision, whether to eat that donut or go to the gym, you're using up some of that willpower. By optimizing your environment using the 6S method, you reduce decision fatigue and make it easier to stick to your plan. When your kitchen is stocked with the foods you want and your gym clothes are set up the night before, making healthy choices becomes the path of least resistance.

The beauty of the 6S method is that it's not about drastically changing everything. It's about making small, strategic tweaks that add up to big changes over time. Start with one area of your environment and go through each of the six S's. Sort, set in order, shine, standardize, sustain, and ensure safety. By taking it one step at a time, you can create an environment that supports your fitness goals and makes the choice that serves you the easy choice. In conclusion, the 6S method from engineering can be a powerful tool in your fitness journey.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

It might be that your lack of progress isn't due to a lack of knowledge or effort. It's your spaces that are sabotaging you. What do I mean? In today's episode, we are diving into a concept straight from engineering that could help you discover how your environment might be quietly undermining your efforts. You'll learn a systematic approach to transform your spaces into powerful allies to reduce friction in your quest for this leaner physique. Today, we'll uncover why your surroundings matter more than you think when it comes to consistently hitting your goals.

Philip Pape: 0:51

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring a concept that might be the missing piece in your fat loss puzzle the 6S method and how it applies to your environment, your fitness environment, your food environment, all of your spaces. You've probably heard me talk about the importance of systems and efficiency. Well, today we're taking that to a whole new level, because we're going to break down the 6S method, a principle used in manufacturing and engineering that can be applied to set up your environment for success, and by the end of this episode, you'll understand why your environment could be working against you right now, but how you can flip that around and make it an ally in your journey. So let's dive in. Let's explore how a little bit of this engineering wisdom can transform how you look at things. Let's talk about food for a second. Have you ever wondered why it's so hard to stick to your plan, even if you have a meal plan, even if you've thought ahead of it, when there's a big bag of chips sitting right on the table? Or why you find it easier to work out or train consistently when your gym clothes are laid out the night before right? These aren't random. They're prime examples of how your environment shapes your behavior, how you're able to increase or reduce friction and then, ultimately, the success that you have when it comes to behavior and habits.

Philip Pape: 2:16

And so there's this concept from engineering and manufacturing called the 6S method. It was originally developed to improve efficiency in factories. It was then later applied to offices, and we can take these principles and apply it to any aspect of life. And that's what we're going to do today. And what it is. It's a. It's a systematic approach to organizing and optimizing your environment.

Philip Pape: 2:41

And the six S's they actually come from Japanese, but they get translated into English to keep the S's, and they stand for sort, set in order, shine, standardize, sustain and safety. And throughout my engineering career I've used some variants of this. There's different ones, there's five S's, there's six S's, and for me it was often in the office. Somebody would come by and they'd say, okay, do you have everything organized so that you can easily find your documents? You know what's in what drawer, things like that. Of course, today a lot of people work from home. People aren't walking around checking your home office, but the principles still apply. So let's break down the six S's. Just go through each one and just quickly give you an example of how it might work. S's. Just go through each one and just quickly give you an example of how it might work.

Philip Pape: 3:25

The first one is sort, and this is about eliminating things that are unnecessary. This could be physically clearing out things that you just don't want or need, like those tortilla chips or the snacks or the candy or whatever in your pantry, in your drawer, in your fridge. It could be eliminating things from your home gym that you don't use so that you have space for things that you do, and it could even be prioritizing the things that are important to you in your calendar, such as training, if training is number one that comes first and you kind of create a list and then at that bottom of the list you say can I eliminate this or can I delegate this if it is not necessary? So there's all different ways to sort things to make our environment more pleasant, more clean, more clear for us to start making progress. Number two is set in order. This involves organizing what's left after you sort and so in your kitchen this might mean putting the snacks that you really want maybe they're the high nutrient density, the lower calorie snacks at eye level in your fridge, in the front of the cabinet, in the front of your drawer, putting it where you see it before you see, the higher calorie options, the things you want less. Now, when you're in a multi-person household, this might involve some conversation, but if someone there is supporting you, they should be okay with you putting their Oreo cookies in the back so you don't see them as easily. Very simple concept of organizing what's left. This could apply to your home gym as well. This could apply to even your equipment that you take to the gym. If you go to a commercial gym and you have your blender bottle, your protein, your gym bag, your squat shoes are those first sorted and then set in order so that they're very easy to see and get to. For example, if your gym bag, if your squat shoes, have a place in the front room, where you're going to walk by it every day on the way out, even when you're not going to the gym, it's a great visual reminder of that, a behavior that is part of your life.

Philip Pape: 5:25

The third S is shine, and this is about keeping your environment clean and functional. Almost think of like a feng shui right, when you think of the extreme of a living room that is just very clean, minimalist and it's functional. You have your area to sit, you have your area to get work done, things like that. So a clean kitchen, for example, makes your meal prep more appealing. So simply literally cleaning right, literally making the counter clean, and also not just you know, not just cleaning it, but also keeping it clear, keeping it functional.

Philip Pape: 6:00

You can have some decorative things, of course, but think about all your kitchen appliances. Which ones do you use more than others? The ones you don't. Maybe they go in the cabinet, maybe you have a rack up top that you can hang pans from, or kitchen implements, tools and things. Maybe the drawer you can reorganize your utensil drawer right Little things like that that can go a long way. I think about my basement, where I have my tool chest, and ever since we moved in I've been working to organize that. There's a lot of tools and I was thinking, you know what? It's a little bit frustrating and stressful when I have to do a small job and I go down there and things aren't where I want them. Same thing applies to our meal planning. You know, are your casserole dishes in the right place? Your pots, your pans, your ninja creamy, all the things that you use on a regular basis? So that's shine, keeping it clean and functional.

Philip Pape: 6:47

The next S is standardize. Now, this is one of my favorites. This is about creating systems and routines, and so this could involve initially setting for yourself a reminder in your calendar or in your phone, or setting an alarm or putting a post-it note on the fridge that gets you to do something, but that something is, for example, always packing your lunch the night before, or always having a set meal prep day each week, or always prepping your gym bag the night before, and standardizing, having a system. This doesn't have to be super automated and using AI and all this fun stuff. We're just talking about your food, your gym environment and making it as frictionless as possible. Number five is sustain. Now this some for some people is the hardest part is maintaining the changes you've made. But if you've already gotten rid of all this friction, you've created a clean, well suited, well sorted, shiny, functional environment, you're probably going to have some sense of pride in it. And if they then lead to you making progress, it kind of feeds on itself and you create habits and you consistently reinforce the systems that you've put in place.

Philip Pape: 7:59

And the last S is safety. Now, in manufacturing, this usually refers to physical safety when you're dealing with high voltage electricity or sharp tools or heavy equipment, but when it comes to nutrition and training, this could be making sure you have an environment that helps you feel safe, feel less stressed, feel like you know what you're doing and you know what to do next. It could be physical safety in a home gym, for example, by making sure you have barbell clips and spotter arms, safety pins all the right equipment so that you don't feel in danger at all. It could be making sure that you are tracking the things that you want to measure, both with your food, whether it's scale, weight measurements, lifting so that you have the confidence that what you're doing is going to produce the result, so that you know you're recovering right. When we say safety, do we mean physically being safe in the gym, with your form and recovering? So there's a lot of different ways to create an environment that supports your progress and prevents extreme measures, prevents burnout and allows you to recover and have some time to yourself.

Philip Pape: 9:03

Now we often talk about how willpower is a finite resource Discipline willpower. Every time you have to make a decision whether to eat that donut, whether to go to the gym you're using up some of that willpower. But when you optimize your environment using the 6S method, you reduce decision fatigue, you reduce the number of decisions you have to make because you've done it in advance. You've set your environment up to have as little friction as possible. It's just like when you make a plan, when you have a meal plan, and then you execute. You've already done the work ahead of time, when you had the energy to do the work, that did not require very much willpower, and then, when the time comes, the emotion is out of it and you just execute because you have no choice.

Philip Pape: 9:44

The environment is what it is when your kitchen is stocked with the foods that you want the lower calorie, higher density, the whole foods or even the indulgences, but the ones that you want and you have them in the right place, where there aren't just random temptations. Everywhere, eating well, eating for your goals becomes the path of least resistance when your gym clothes and your blender bottle and your squat shoes and your lifting belt are all set up to go the night before going to the gym actually becomes the easy choice. The harder choice would be to undo all of that. Now you're no longer fighting against your environment. It is actually working toward you and guiding you. It's like holding your hand and saying here we go Like. This is the way we do it, and this is why I often say that systems are going to outdo willpower. Any day of the week, you can have all the motivation in the world internal, external, doesn't matter. If your environment is constantly tempting you or making it difficult to stick to your plan. That is friction. You're fighting an uphill battle in that case.

Philip Pape: 10:45

Now the beauty of taking a method like this, the 6S method. It is not about drastically changing everything. It's take one thing take one of those S's and take one aspect of your environment and just start chipping away Small strategic tweaks that will add up to big changes over time. Start with your refrigerator or, if that's too overwhelming, start with one drawer, one cabinet. Start with the one gym bag drawer. S-trick right. It's about engineering your surroundings to make the choice that serves you, whether that is for fat loss or anything else the easy choice. So just pick one area of your environment and go through each of the six S's, starting at the top Sort. Just start with sort, and you might find that one of them is unnecessary or it's easy and you go to the next one. Just start with one and do it. You don't even have to go to the next one the same day if you don't want to. You could. And once you sort, then you set things in order and that'll make those choices even easier. Then you keep it clean, you keep it appealing and functional, you standardize, you sustain these because you've got the pride and you've done the work to put it in place. And then you make sure everything supports you and supports the safety for you.

Philip Pape: 11:57

This is an aspect of continual improvement, constantly refining your surroundings to better support your goals, and it never really ends. You'll always find opportunities to do this, so go back to this episode in the future. If you're like hi, I need to work on my environment. Something in my environment just doesn't feel right. It feels dirty, it feels like it's going against me. I always eat this snack food that's sitting there on the table and analyze, optimize, iterate. Of course, in the car or you're walking, you may not have the full environment, but really everywhere you are is part of your environment. So you might be surprised. In your car, for example, it might be a little dirty, you might have things that are not as efficiently set up for you for your commute, for listening to that podcast.

Philip Pape: 12:49

What are the little things that are holding you back from your goals?

Philip Pape: 12:53

What's hindering you?

Philip Pape: 12:55

And then, how can you apply the 6S method to make the environment work for you?

Philip Pape: 12:58

All right, if you are not entirely sure how to apply this to your life, or you wanna take this concept and take it to the next level and figure out for you what is my plan, what is my fat loss plan? What is my muscle building plan? Body recomposition I have free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessments that I do all the time where I get on the call with you, I get on a zoom call and we just talk about your goal, where you are, where you want to be. What is the one thing holding you back? And then give, give you a three-step action plan to get you immediate results in the next 90 days. Maybe it's about refining your environment, maybe it's something else, but you'll only know if you book it. So book your assessment with me. Go to witsandweightscom, click the big button at the top or click the link in the show notes. That is it for today. This is Philip Pape. You've been listening to Wits and Weights. Until next time, keep using those wits, keep lifting those weights. We'll talk to you then.

Eat These 5 Foods and Lose 20 Pounds By Next Week | Ep 206

Eat these five superfoods and lose 20 pounds by next week! Grabs your attention, doesn't it?

It's the kind of promise that floods our social media feeds, beckoning us with the allure of quick, effortless weight loss or other results. Are you tired of falling for these? Why do they never deliver and are you ready to do what actually works?

Philip (@witsandweights) debunks the biggest myths in the fitness industry and reveals how to achieve real, lasting results with a sustainable approach. He discusses why these magic bullet approaches fall short and can be harmful. He shares strategies for navigating the misinformation that clutters our social media feeds, from focusing on fundamental principles to understanding the importance of personalization in fitness and nutrition. By the end of this episode, you'll have the tools to become a more discerning consumer of fitness content, ensuring that you stay on the path to real, lasting results.

📨To learn more about the silly claims in the fitness industry that just aren’t true and what to do instead, join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:57 The appeal of quick fixes
5:50 The truth about detox teas and quick weight loss
6:56 Debunking the 10-minute ab workout myth
8:26 The keto craze and other diet fads
11:30 Recognizing oversimplified, unrealistic promises
15:54 Five strategies for navigating fitness misinformation
23:24 The evolving nature of fitness
26:34 Final thoughts on sustainable fitness approaches
27:19 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download Boostcamp for free and access 70+ evidence-based workout programs.

Related episodes:

• 7 Biggest Fitness & Nutrition Myths Busted After 200 Episodes (According to Listeners) | Ep 200

• The Perfect Meal Plan | Ep 112

• Mike Matthews on Energy Balance, Training Volume, and Priorities for Novice and Intermediate Lifters | Ep 94

Episode summary:

Host Philip Pape dives deep into the pervasive myths and deceptive marketing tactics in the fitness and diet industry. This episode aims to empower listeners to become savvy consumers of fitness advice, enabling them to avoid the traps of one-size-fits-all solutions and embrace sustainable, personalized approaches to health and fitness.

One of the key topics discussed in this episode is the allure of quick fixes. From detox teas to magic exercises, these so-called solutions promise rapid, effortless results. Philip highlights how these products flood social media feeds with enticing claims that are often just believable enough to make you wonder if they might actually work. However, the reality is that these quick fixes often fall short, failing to deliver the promised results. Detox teas, for example, are usually just laxatives that lead to temporary water weight loss rather than actual fat loss. Similarly, short 10-minute ab workouts might provide some minimal benefits but won't lead to a six-pack without significant changes in diet and overall exercise regimen.

Philip emphasizes the complexity of the human body, shaped by genetics, lifestyle, and hormones, making it unlikely that a single change can lead to dramatic results. The episode encourages listeners to be skeptical of oversimplified solutions and to understand the importance of a holistic approach to fitness. By becoming more discerning consumers, individuals can better navigate the cluttered world of fitness information and avoid falling for gimmicks that promise too much and deliver too little.

The episode also tackles persistent myths in diet culture, particularly the ketogenic and carnivore diets. These diets often claim to be the only effective way to lose weight, with proponents arguing that carbs are the sole culprits of weight gain. Philip debunks these claims by explaining the fundamental principle of energy balance, which dictates that calorie deficit, regardless of the diet followed, is necessary for fat loss. He also highlights the importance of a personalized approach to diet, as what works for one person might not work for another. This personalized approach is crucial for long-term success and sustainability.

Intermittent fasting is another hot topic discussed in the episode. While intermittent fasting can be a useful tool for some, Philip clarifies that it offers no unique benefits over other eating patterns except for lifestyle and adherence. The episode demystifies intermittent fasting, explaining its potential benefits and limitations. Philip stresses that sustainable weight loss typically occurs at a gradual pace of one to two pounds per week, and unrealistic expectations like losing 20 pounds in a week are both misleading and harmful.

Variety in diet is another significant aspect covered in this episode. Philip emphasizes that there are no "magic foods" for weight loss or fat loss. Instead, a diverse diet helps prevent nutrient deficiencies and supports overall health. Sustainable habits and understanding energy balance are crucial for long-term success. The episode offers practical advice on how to navigate the minefield of fitness and nutrition information, providing five key strategies to stay focused and realistic.

First, focus on principles over tactics. Instead of getting caught up in specific foods or exercises, understand the underlying principles of nutrition and training, such as energy balance and progressive overload. This approach allows for more flexibility and personalization in your fitness journey. Second, be skeptical of extreme promises. Rapid, dramatic results with minimal effort are often too good to be true. Real, sustainable change takes time and consistent effort.

Third, consider the credentials and experience of those providing fitness advice. While credentials are not the only indicator of reliable information, they can provide a good starting point. Look for individuals who have a well-rounded background, relevant education, and a proven track record. Fourth, understand that context matters. What works for a young fitness model may not work for an older adult with different lifestyle factors. Tailor your approach to fit your unique circumstances and goals.

Finally, embrace personalization. The most effective fitness and nutrition plans are those tailored to your individual needs. This may involve some trial and error, but finding what works best for you is crucial for long-term success. Whether you work with a coach or figure it out on your own, personalization is key.

In summary, this episode of Wits & Weights provides a comprehensive guide to navigating the often confusing and misleading world of fitness and diet advice. By debunking common myths and emphasizing the importance of personalized, evidence-based approaches, Philip Pape equips listeners with the knowledge and tools they need to achieve sustainable health and fitness. Tune in to this episode to learn how to separate fact from fiction and embark on a more informed and successful fitness journey.

📲 Send me a text message!

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Eat these five superfoods and lose 20 pounds by next week. Now, that is the kind of promise that floods our social media feeds, beckoning us with the allure of quick, effortless weight loss or other quick results. Sometimes they're just believable enough to make you wonder if they actually work, and that's the insidious underbelly of the fitness industry. Today, we're exposing oversimplified fitness solutions, from detox teas that promise to melt fat overnight to 10-minute workouts guaranteed to give you six-pack abs. We're going to unpack why these magic bullet approaches not only fall short, but are the very bane of the existence of this industry, and something you'll want to craft some effective and intelligent armor against. No, this episode will not tell you the five foods that will help you lose 20 pounds by next week unless those five foods are water but it will help you sift through the misinformation to become a more discerning content consumer, and, ultimately, that is what will get you the exact results you're looking for. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're dealing with a topic that's probably frustrated every single one of us at some point in our fitness journey, the do this one thing advice that's plastered all over social media. You know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking about. It's these posts that claim if you just eat these five superfoods or you just do this one magic exercise, you'll insert result here. You know, lose 20 pounds in a week, get a six pack overnight. Insert result here lose 20 pounds in a week, get a six pack overnight. And oftentimes it sounds just reasonable enough to maybe, just maybe, work. And then it snags you in through enticing marketing copy or an unbelievable price. But be honest with yourself. How often have you tried following this kind of advice and then found that it actually delivered on its promise? Yeah, a big fat goose egg. And some of this advice is sillier than others, but it's all worth examining so that we can understand the patterns and the logical fallacies behind them, not to mention, often, the motives.

Philip Pape: 2:17

Now speaking of silly fitness myths, if you want to stay updated on the latest silly myths out there and my sarcastic take on why they're silly and much less silly, evidence-based solutions that actually work, delivered straight to your inbox, join my free mailing list at witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in my show notes. Again, I love to send out myth-busting type emails about these things so you get a more nuanced picture of what actually works. And I don't tell you it's only this thing. It's usually much more nuanced and personalized than that. So to get those, click the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email.

Philip Pape: 2:55

Now, today's episode was inspired by a message from one of our listeners, jen Emma, and some recent discussions I've seen on Reddit as well. Jen, shout out to you, thank you so much for bringing this up. Your frustration is shared by so many people out there, myself included, and for years that's kind of the trap that I fell into wanting that next easy thing or that one thing that works. And it's the exact kind of myth busting we love to do in this show, with this lens towards skepticism and curiosity that I want everyone to have. Let's start breaking down why these one-size-fits-all solutions are so appealing and why they ultimately fail. Then later in the episode, we'll talk about strategies to navigate information online without having to learn how to read scientific papers. This is where, hey, you could listen to guys like me. You can listen to ladies and men who have podcasts, who you respect, who you trust, without necessarily having to dive all the way deep and spend four hours a day reading papers.

Philip Pape: 3:58

First, what is the appeal? The appeal is that these quick fixes promise fast results with minimal effort, and we all know that fast and cheap are two of the pillars of marketing and results and why people make their choices. If I told you it takes six to 12 months to lose the fat you want to lose, or you see a billboard that says you can get it done in one day with liposuction, and even if it's five times the cost, you can see why people make the decisions they do. We see the same thing with well, I'm not even going to go there and talk about pharmaceuticals in any way today, but you get the idea and these quick fixes. They're often backed by carefully selected quotes cherry-picked from studies, or even studies themselves that are cherry-picked from studies, or even studies themselves that are cherry-picked, or definitely, testimonials are huge Testimonials from people who look like they've got it all figured out before and after photos. And in a world where we're all short on time, we're bombarded with information. We love instant gratification.

Philip Pape: 5:01

A simple solution is incredibly attractive and it doesn't have to be crazy. The diets that are out there, something like keto that says just eat this and don't eat this. That is simple and it's attractive, but it doesn't necessarily mean it works. The problem here is that our bodies are complex systems. They're influenced by a multitude of factors genetics, lifestyle, your stress levels, your sleep quality, everything you're doing every day, your age, all these things, your hormones right, and the idea that one single change is black and white, dramatically will transform your body is, frankly, ridiculous. Speaking of ridiculous, I trolled the internet and I looked for some real world examples and Reddit is a great place to go for these, by the way and I found four that were interesting and not too crazy, actually, and people believe these and oftentimes jump into them and you hear the marketed quite extensively.

Philip Pape: 5:55

So the first one is detox teas. These teas are usually marketed as a simple solution to weight loss. Right, weight loss is the thing everybody seems to want, and they'll say things like drink this tea every morning and lose 10 pounds in a week. But guess what? These teas are just laxatives. That's all they are. It's just reducing what you eat, causing you to expel it from your body, drinking a bunch of fluid, and they lead to temporary water weight loss. They're not burning fat. They're not detoxifying your body right. That's what your liver and your kidneys are really good at doing, naturally. And this premise of losing weight fast is found in lots of these claims, and oftentimes it's because it actually quote unquote work. Like when you go on keto and you cut out a whole bunch of carbs all of a sudden and you cut out all processed foods all of a sudden, you're probably going to drop calories massively and you're going to drop water weight massively, and so that first week or two you're going to have multiple pounds of weight loss. Little to none of it is actually fat loss. So detox teas are one.

Philip Pape: 6:56

The next one is the 10-minute ab workouts, and I bring this up because back in the 90s, when I was a teenager and then actually it might've been the 2000s, I was in my 20s I definitely fell prey to the idea of the very short workouts every day that can produce these maximum results, these amazing results, and 10-minute abs, or six-minute abs even, are one of those, and you've seen these for years and years and years, and they keep popping up on Instagram influencers claiming that if you do a specific set of exercises every day for just 10 minutes, you're going to get a six-pack in just a few weeks. Right Now, any form of movement training exercise will do something for you. It may not be the thing you're looking for and it may not be the best thing for you, but for someone who hasn't been working out at all, then starts doing something, it's going to give you some result, right, it might help a little bit with your core strength. It might develop your ab muscles just a tiny bit. But then you get very disappointed when you realize not much visibly is happening and not much is happening beyond that, because you're not changing your diet, you're not changing your body fat percentage, you're not actually training overall for strength and muscle in the proper way progressive overload, those kinds of things. So anything that just promises something in only a few minutes a day you have to be skeptical of. Having said that, there are minimum effective dose ways to train that you don't have to train very long and can get pretty good results. But it's going to be very personalized and it's going to be a little more nuanced than something like this.

Philip Pape: 8:27

All right, the next one is I'm just going to call it the keto craze. It continues to this day. You can fill in the blank and replace keto with carnivore, if you'd like. Some influencers are pushing these diets. Take the ketogenic diet, for example, as the only effective way to lose weight, and you see the zealots out there, because they'll reply to other posts that are more nuanced and they'll say no, it's.

Philip Pape: 8:49

You know, not all calories are equal. Energy balance is not how it's done. It's carbs are making you fat, right, or it's. This is making you fat, or you know it causes it's inflammatory or it's toxic or whatever, and it really does ignore the fundamental principle of energy balance that you have to be in calorie deficit, regardless of the diet you follow, to lose fat. Now, that doesn't mean that certain foods might not be triggering for you, and by triggering I mean they can cause inflammation or they can cause a change in your stress levels, or you may have a bad reaction or an allergengen or something like that. But again, it's very personalized and this is where an individual has to go through a process of figuring out what those are, not just saying I'm going to cut all these things and the be all end all, because guess what happens? Right, when you cut out all carbs, most people are miserable and you've just eliminated wide swaths of your potential food, delicious foods on your plate, that could be perfectly fine for you, and not only fine for you, optimal and beneficial for you. So just replace the keto craze with the carnivore craze or the vegan craze or whatever specific diet you want to put in there.

Philip Pape: 9:56

And then the fourth one I wanted to mention today is it still persists intermittent fasting as this cure-all. And I actually saw an article recently talking about one of the more recent studies looking at autophagy and longevity, and the interpretation people were coming away from it was oh see, intermittent fasting, you have to do it because then you'll live a long life, again, not realizing that it didn't account for so many other factors of longevity, including muscle mass. And a lot of these studies are either observational, or they are done on rats, or they are done where you isolate one mechanism from all the others. And so intermittent fasting is really the big one, because it's a hugely popular trend and it hasn't stopped, and I did it myself for years and people will push it for much more than it probably is beneficial. So what do I mean? They push it as a solution for weight loss, muscle gain, mental health, right, everything, longevity and again, I like to separate what's true from what's not, and what's true is intermittent fasting can be an effective tool for some people, particularly for managing calories and meal timing and your hunger signals, and that's it. If it's good for your schedule, if it's good for your adherence, then it could work for you. But you don't have to do it and it offers no benefits versus not fasting, versus eating five, six, seven meals a day and spreading out the feeding window no benefits whatsoever other than the lifestyle and the adherence perspectives.

Philip Pape: 11:30

Okay, now let's circle back to our main claim. Right? The title, the title of the episode eat these five foods and lose 20 pounds by next week. Anything that sounds like that. This is the perfect example of the kind of oversimplified, unrealistic promise we're talking about, and I admit I used it as clickbait to get you to listen to this episode, but it's because I want to emphasize how ridiculous it is.

Philip Pape: 11:53

Because, first of all, losing 20 pounds in a week is not just unrealistic, it is potentially dangerous. Right, healthy, sustainable weight loss, fat loss typically occurs at a rate of about one to two pounds per week. That is the vast majority of people. A tiny group of people might go a little faster than that, especially if they're bigger or maybe they have a lot of muscle, a higher metabolism. Any tiny, tiny people will go slower than that because they can't go that fast. Their metabolism is lower. They're a smaller individual, right, they don't want to eat so few calories, but one to two pounds is pretty typical. Secondly, while certain foods because again we're talking about the five superfoods or the five best foods certain foods can definitely be part of your healthy dietary pattern. No single food, no small group of foods, no quote unquote. Superfood has the power to cause dramatic anything on its own. Hey, this is Philip, and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits and Weights. Anything on its own only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life.

Philip Pape: 13:13

If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential, whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created Wits and Weights Physique University, a semi-private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. Wits and Weights Physique University a semi-private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever With a personalized, done-for-you nutrition plan, custom-designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community. You'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest, leanest and healthiest version of yourself.

Philip Pape: 14:07

Now back to the show. Having said that, I am a huge fan of incorporating diversity in lots of different foods and knowing that if you have nutrient deficiencies, there are certain foods that will help with those deficiencies. But even then, it's not just one food. Right? The things you get from mushrooms, you might be able to get from asparagus. The things you get from I don't know squash, you get from spinach. Right? There's a lot of crossover here and diversity is where it's at. And when we talk about weight loss or fat loss, we're talking about energy balance. And then we're talking about sustainable habits, not magic foods. Right? Do you enjoy what you eat? Can you make tasty recipes? Right? Can you meal prep and find the stuff at your grocery store and then see how that can fit around your meal plan and your macros and calories and nutrient needs. That's the way to go.

Philip Pape: 14:57

So now, why do people push these solutions? I mean, I think the biggest reason is they're marketable, right, it's a lot easier to sell a simple solution than a complex or boring or nuanced or personalized one. And many of these influencers who are already, let's say, fit or thin or whatever the look we're attracted to, they've probably put in years of consistent work, training in the gym, actually tracking their macros and focusing on their nutrition and not actually using the thing that they're selling. But again, it's not catchy. Now, I'm not saying that all advice on social media is bad. Of course not. There are tons of knowledgeable ethical trainers, coaches, experts out there sharing great information. There are also lots of well-intentioned people who inadvertently share poor information. I'm really most concerned about the ones that deliberately and unethically share known and correct information and they push it for marketing purposes.

Philip Pape: 16:06

The key here is to learn to distinguish between the realistic I'll call it evidence-based advice. But again, you have to be careful. People aren't calling themselves evidence-based and just cherry-picking evidence. So we have to learn between the difference between that and the flashy stuff, the quick fixes and then they're not always obvious because they're not always as crazy as some claims. So I want to give you some strategies now to navigate this minefield of information, because I do get that question all the time and this does go back to Jen's original question, a listener who I gave a shout out to of like, what do I do? There's so much you know, do this one thing? Advice out there. All right. So five simple strategies.

Philip Pape: 16:44

The first one is to focus on the principles, not the tactics. So, instead of when you see information where they're talking about a specific food or exercise, always know that anything specific where it's black or white, where they're excluding things, typically they are violating the principles of nutrition and training, which allow for a lot more variety than what they are claiming right. And if you know how energy balance works, how progressive overload works, the importance of being consistent, right Behavioral change, you can then say, okay, does this thing violate any of those principles? And having said that, I realize that sometimes I will say that I have a favorite way to do things. So, for example, I am a huge advocate of compound lifts as the fundamental way to train, but hopefully I've never said that that's the only thing you should do or that's the only right way to do it. Instead, I make my argument based on the cause and effect. I'll say okay, compound lifts use more muscle mass, you can lift heavier weight and they save time because you're using multiple muscle groups. Therefore, from a time efficiency standpoint, which many of you are going for, it's probably the optimal approach. So you got to listen to how it's worded as well. So focusing on the principles and applying them to what you hear instead of the method itself like there's a one right method can be very helpful.

Philip Pape: 18:38

Number two is be skeptical of extreme claims. Always If someone promises rapid, dramatic results, especially with minimal effort, your BS detector should be on high alert. Real sustainable change takes time and effort. When someone reaches out to me to ask for help and I can tell that they're maybe interested in coaching and working together One of the five questions I send them. Okay, I just send five questions. One of the five questions is how important is sustainability to you? And sometimes I'll get an answer like I'm not sure what that is, or I'm looking for results in 12 weeks, and then that's a red flag for me and it's like, okay, that's unrealistic, this is what it actually requires. If you are good with that, of doing it the right way for the first time in your life I don't necessarily say it that way then I would love to help you, because this is going to change your whole perspective of how you do this. And if they're like, no, no, I really need to lose, you know, 20 pounds in 12 weeks, I'm like okay, I'm not the coach for you. You know, good luck. So be skeptical of extreme claims.

Philip Pape: 19:43

Number three, the third of the five principles here is looking for credentials and experience. Now, it's not a guarantee that someone with a credential is going to be any good, but what you want is kind of the whole picture. Does someone have the relevant background, education, experience and kind of the totality of that put together, where you can see the authority they've developed over the years? You can see other people who trust them. They get around, maybe they're on a whole bunch of other podcasts and you can go see who trusts them and what kind of shows they're on. A guy like Dr Eric Helms has been on my show a couple of times. You can't help but just find him all over the internet and easily figure out. He knows what he's talking about, Whereas somebody else. If it takes you a while to Google them and you have trouble even finding information about them and they have this special program that's kind of locked down behind you only find out if you pay the $27 to get the guide right.

Philip Pape: 20:40

There's a spectrum of things and I don't think you have to have a degree, that's for sure. Right, I don't have a degree in the nutrition side. I have a PhD, but it's not in nutrition. But I do have a lot of. I do have coaching certification. I do have a lot of experience. I've worked with a lot of people. I have this podcast, right, like, I've put a lot into the world that allows you to validate me and kind of do a background check on me. So do your background check on someone, right? And that includes how they train and how they eat and what they're posting on their story and all that good stuff. That's number three, all right.

Philip Pape: 21:19

The fourth principle of navigating this minefield is understanding that context matters. Context matters, and one way that context matters is that, for example, what works for a 22-year-old fitness model or bodybuilder bikini competitor might not work for a 45-year-old parent with a full-time job who's in perimenopause, right. Your approach needs to fit your lifestyle and goals, but also the information out there needs to be clear what context it falls in. If somebody is just making a blanket claim without context, that is a red flag. So not only should it have context. That context then allows you to understand whether it makes sense for you, and we tie that to principles and it all comes together. The fifth principle here is embracing personalization, right?

Philip Pape: 22:11

The most effective fitness plan, workout program, nutrition plan is the one that's tailored to you. Now, who does the tailoring? That might be you, that might be you with a buddy or friend, that might be you posting on a group that you're in and other people help you figure it out, and that might be a coach helping you do it. What it's not is a cookie cutter plan or a one size fits all plan that's out there. I do love efficiency, so I'm fine with templates, like when it comes to macros and you know that your expenditure is 2,500 calories and then you go online you find like a 2,500 calorie meal plan. Well, sure, that is a great template to start from, to give you an idea, to give you some inspiration. Similarly, if you work out and you want to go four days a week, up or lower, and you go to, for example, the Boost Camp app, which I use personally. In fact, I can throw a link to that. I think I do have a link to that in the show notes further down, free programs from experts. You can then say, hey, I want to build muscle, I have four days a week and I have a home gym with barbells, and then kind of find a template that works for you.

Philip Pape: 23:22

Even then, however, with the meal plan, with the workout program, you may need to make modifications. You probably will need to make modifications for your individual needs what you like, what your schedule is, what your circumstances are, what things you can train with, what food you like to eat, and on and on. So the fastest, easiest way to do that is working with a coach. The slower but still effective over the long-term way to do that is some trial and error to find what works best for you. And if you listen to this show, I can definitely point you to specific episodes on specific topics that will give you some inspiration on how to do that trial and error, how to experiment. All right.

Philip Pape: 23:58

So the big picture here fitness, getting fit, getting jacked swole looking better, losing fat, building muscle. This is a process and it's very personalized to you. It's not a destination that you just do this one thing and get a result. It's building a new system for yourself, a system for you based on habits. Now if you're wondering, okay, I, even as a certified coach and fitness professional, I don't have all the answers and I hope I never claim to. In fact, one of the most valuable things I've learned is the importance of saying I don't know, or it depends, and that can be frustrating for people.

Philip Pape: 24:39

The fitness industry it's constantly evolving as new research emerges, so even things we think we know sometimes get turned up on their head and change, like this idea of the anabolic window and eating protein. We know now that you can eat tons of protein all at once and your body will still use that to build muscle, and so now we know we can eat whatever amount of protein we want, as many meals as we want, as long as we get the total protein for the day, and that can be liberating. Once we start to learn the nuances from the research, other research might show us that, hey, we've confirmed time and again that you probably need to eat at least 0.7 grams per pound of protein every day or you're going to have some negative outcomes in terms of muscle mass strength, hypertrophy, health, all that right. So there are some I'll call it thresholds, or there are some things that are kind of like the law of gravity, where you kind of know they're true, but it took years of research emerging and confirming that right. What we thought was true a decade ago might be disproven today or might continue to be confirmed, and that's why it's important to stay curious, to keep learning, to be willing to adjust your approach as you go.

Philip Pape: 25:52

And this mindset, this continuous learning, this adaptation, this growth mindset, is far more valuable than any single piece of fitness advice, Even something that I might say on this show. It's just a little blip of information. What matters is how does it work for you? Are you learning about yourself? Are you adapting and growing? And that allows you to evolve with the science. It allows me to evolve with the science as a person who is a proclaimed quote unquote expert and I barely even want to use that term. It's just because I'm obsessed with this and I've spent thousands of hours looking into this stuff. It allows you to experiment with different approaches and then find what works best for you. And that is where we're trying to go. So the next time you see a do this one thing post, instead of immediately trying to implement it, ask yourself how does this fit into the broader principles of training and nutrition? Is it sustainable for me? How might I need to adapt it to my situation? And this approach? It's hard to say, it's not sexy, it's kind of boring. It's doing the work, it's putting in the effort, it's not a quick fix, but I promise you it is the smart, efficient way to go to actually get long-term success that you sustain for the rest of your life.

Philip Pape: 27:11

All right, as we wrap up, let's recap the main points. Number one one-size-fits-all solutions rarely work because our bodies are complex and individual. Number two be skeptical of extreme claims and quick fixes. Number three focus on the principles rather than latching onto tactics or methods. Number four personalization is where it's at. What works for someone else might not work for you. And number five have that mindset, embrace that mindset of continuous learning and adaptation. The goal is not to find the perfect diet or workout plan. It's to build the nutrition and training system for you that runs 24-7, the nutrition and training system for you that runs 24-7, always works. Lets you enjoy life while doing it.

Philip Pape: 27:51

All right, if you found value in today's episode, if you want to continue learning how to separate fitness facts from fiction, make sure to join my free email list at witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in my show notes. You're going to get regular updates on common fitness misconceptions. You'll get science-based solutions things that I do with clients actionable strategies so that you can figure out what works for you and actually achieve your goals, and you're not going to fall for empty promises. Join my email list at witsandweightscom slash email and arm yourself with knowledge, plus a little bit of my quirky personality and writing to make informed decisions about your health and your fitness. All right, and then later this week you're going to see an episode called Diet Soda is Good for you. That plays into this theme of skepticism and how to evaluate what you read online.

Philip Pape: 28:42

Make sure to follow the show right now in your podcast app. Click follow so that you don't miss it. You'll get notified when it comes out. All right, until next time, keep using your wits, keep lifting those weights and remember there is no one right way to get fit. Find what works for you, be consistent and enjoy it. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

The Hidden Brain in Your Gut Might Be Controlling Your Cravings with Dr. William Ferro | Ep 205

Are you struggling to lose weight despite trying every diet? Could your gut be secretly driving your cravings, mood, and performance? Are you ready to unlock the power of your "second brain"?

Philip (@witsandweights) dives into the fascinating gut-brain connection with Dr. William Ferro, founder and CEO of Betr Health. They explore how your gut—the "second brain"—might be the secret to transforming your health, conquering cravings, and achieving your fitness goals. Dr. Ferro shares practical strategies to reset your gut, reduce inflammation, and take control of your food choices through personalized nutrition. He also highlights why it's not your fault if you're struggling with weight loss and how understanding your body's unique needs can make all the difference.

Join Philip and Dr. Ferro for an in-depth discussion that could change your perspective on your diet, health, and fitness journey.

📱Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15-minute call.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:30 The role of the gut microbiome in genetic expression
4:18 The enteric nervous system and its significance
6:32 The bidirectional relationship between the gut and brain
9:27 How gut health impacts metabolism and performance
15:31 Personalized nutrition and elimination diets
28:04 Dr. Ferro’s approach to reducing inflammation
30:44 The benefits of fermented foods and fiber for gut health
36:20 Sugar and artificial sweeteners in your diet
40:24 Gut health and autoimmune conditions
42:35 The role of strength training in gut health and overall fitness
44:47 How pets can positively (or negatively) affect your gut
47:06 The question Dr. Ferro wanted Philip to ask him
49:50 Where to find Dr. Ferro
50:28 Outro

Episode resources:

• Dr. Ferro's website: betrhealth.com

• Quacks and Hypochondriacs Podcast

Related episode:

• The Dark Side of GLP-1 Weight Loss Drugs (Ozempic, Mounjaro, Zepbound) with Amy Wilson| Ep 183

Episode summary:

Dr. William Ferro, the founder and CEO of Better Health, takes us on an enlightening journey into the profound connection between gut health and overall well-being. This episode delves into the science behind the gut-brain axis and offers actionable tips to help listeners harness the power of a healthy gut for improved mental and physical wellness.

Dr. Ferro begins by discussing the concept of the gut-brain connection, often referred to as the gut-brain axis. This bi-directional communication system between the gut and the brain plays a crucial role in regulating various bodily functions, including mood, food choices, and physical performance. The gut, often dubbed the "second brain," is home to a vast microbiome that influences gene expression and overall health. Dr. Ferro emphasizes that the gut's dynamic nature allows it to adapt quickly to positive changes, making it a powerful tool for improving well-being.

One of the key topics covered in this episode is the role of an elimination diet in achieving health success. Dr. Ferro explains how a well-curated elimination and reintroduction protocol can help reduce gut inflammation and identify food sensitivities. This approach involves temporarily removing certain foods from the diet and then gradually reintroducing them to observe their impact on the body. By doing so, individuals can pinpoint specific foods that may be causing inflammation or other adverse reactions. Dr. Ferro highlights the importance of having a coach to guide individuals through this process, as well as the benefits of using advanced technology for dietary tracking and compliance.

The episode also explores the principles of a gut-reset diet designed for sustainability and family inclusion. Dr. Ferro discusses why eliminating specific foods like pork, turkey, tuna, salmon, broccoli, and cauliflower can lead to better initial results by reducing variables that might impede progress. He emphasizes the importance of using high-quality ingredients, avoiding iodized salt, and cooking with broth instead of oils. Hydration is another critical aspect of this approach, as increased intracellular water contributes to weight loss and metabolic health. Dr. Ferro provides real-world examples to illustrate how sticking to a curated food list, even for a short period, can yield significant improvements in energy levels and weight loss.

In addition to dietary changes, the episode delves into the impact of lifestyle factors on gut health. Dr. Ferro discusses the importance of whole foods, adequate calorie intake, and the pitfalls of inadequate sleep, insufficient water intake, and lack of dietary diversity. He highlights the role of intracellular water as a key indicator of improved metabolism and the importance of removing external interferences, such as certain skincare products, to optimize bodily functions. A heartfelt testimonial from Nancy underscores the positive impact of Dr. Ferro's guidance on her daughter's nutrition and body image.

The discussion also touches on the historical wisdom of Hippocrates and the practical advice of health pioneer Jack LaLanne. Dr. Ferro shares promising research on fecal transplants for conditions like anxiety and autism, emphasizing the critical role of diet in maintaining a healthy gut microbiome. He advocates for the benefits of natural probiotics found in fermented foods and the importance of dietary fiber. Dr. Ferro argues that the body's innate ability to heal should be supported by wholesome, natural foods rather than supplements. Real-life examples illustrate how simple dietary changes can lead to dramatic health improvements, from better digestion to enhanced skin and hair quality.

Another significant topic covered in the episode is the impact of gut health on mental well-being. Dr. Ferro explains how gut health influences the production of serotonin, a neurotransmitter that plays a crucial role in regulating mood and anxiety. He emphasizes that restoring gut health can significantly enhance the effectiveness of emotional and mental therapies. This holistic approach to wellness underscores the interconnectedness of gut health, inflammation, and overall well-being.

The episode also explores the specific challenges faced by women with PCOS and other autoimmune issues. Dr. Ferro discusses how reducing systemic inflammation and insulin resistance can lead to improved fertility and pain management. He highlights the benefits of strength training for both muscle and bone health, especially as we age, and emphasizes the importance of professional guidance in fitness routines. Additionally, the conversation touches on the positive impact pets can have on gut health and stress relief through the release of endorphins.

To provide listeners with practical takeaways, Dr. Ferro offers actionable tips for optimizing gut health. He recommends incorporating fermented and fibrous foods into the diet, using elimination diets to identify personal trigger foods, and choosing natural sweeteners like honey over artificial options. He also emphasizes the importance of balancing intuitive eating with precise tracking for body composition goals and being mindful of how cravings can signal nutritional deficiencies.

Dr. Ferro concludes the episode by highlighting the benefits of an elimination diet as a way to reset and improve overall health. He encourages listeners to explore the resources available at Better Health, including personalized coaching and advanced tracking technology. Dr. Ferro's holistic approach to wellness, grounded in the principles of gut health and informed lifestyle changes, offers a comprehensive roadmap to achieving optimal health.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

you've tried every diet out there, maybe track your macros, you still feel powerless against those irresistible food cravings. What if I told you that the key to conquering these cravings isn't more willpower, but understanding a hidden brain in your gut? Today we're diving into the fascinating world of the gut brain connection. My guest will share how this second brain in your gut could be secretly controlling your food choices and what you can do about it. From the impact of gut bacteria on your cravings to your mood and even physical performance. We're going to geek out today on a new way to think about your body. Get ready to discover the power of your gut-brain axis and how it could transform the way you look at your health.

Philip Pape: 0:42

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today I invited on Dr William Farrow, founder and CEO of Better Health, a leading health and wellness company focused on gut health and personalized nutrition. He's also the host of the Quacks and Hypochondriacs podcast. Dr Farrow has observed firsthand the limitations of conventional healthcare and has since championed a holistic approach to well-being, putting gut health at the center of his methodology. Today we're discussing the surprising links between your gut and other aspects of your health, why personalized nutrition is so powerful and how understanding your unique gut-brain connection might be the missing piece to your health and fitness.

Philip Pape: 1:43

Dr Ferro, welcome to the show.

Philip Pape: 1:48

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Appreciate the offer. So, doc, what is this second hidden brain in our gut that we've heard about, and what kind of superpower does it have?

Dr. William Ferro: 1:54

yeah. So we spend, you know, most of our time studying the 10 trillion human cells of the body. Give or take a few trillion. We focus on the dna, the human, and yet there's 300 trillion natural bacteria some people call it the microbiome that are living on your skin, living into your cheeks.

Dr. William Ferro: 2:12

I call it cheek-to-cheek nutrition because a lot of people think that the digestive system, your stomach, is an internal organ. It's actually an external organ. Its whole job is to only let good things in and keep bad things out. And that gut microbiome, that bacteria, is something that over the last 20 years people kind of scoffed at like could that really be a thing? And that's just because we didn't have the scientific instruments to look at it very well. So it has exploded onto the scene and now study after study is just showing that everything from 99% of your genetic expression so for those of you who think that I'm doomed with my genes, I have bad genes, I'll never lose weight 99% of how those genes are expressed have to do with your gut, and that's just one specific area of how it keeps you healthy.

Philip Pape: 2:56

So a couple of interesting things you mentioned. There is how it's on the inside but it's still on the outside, kind of this barrier, this tube, if you will cheek to cheek, and with tons and tons and tons of bacteria, the genetic expression part of it. How much control do we have over that? Because I think of genetics but I also think of epigenetics and what percentage of the impact genetics has versus the things that we do. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. William Ferro: 3:20

Yeah. So epigenetics is the right term here, and the studies are showing, you know, put a percentage on it 90%, 99%, whatever you want to say. A good percentage has to do. The expression of those genes being turned off or acting a certain way has to do with how healthy your gut is, which makes sense, because how healthy your gut is also makes how healthy your diversity of the food that you're eating. It also is how healthy your external environment is. How much exposure do you have to chemicals and pollution in the body? So it's more important about the world and the environment you're living in.

Dr. William Ferro: 3:56

This shouldn't be called Ayurvedic medicine, excuse me. Ayurveda. The practice is about how you're reacting to your environment or your environment's acting upon you, and that's the same thing. When it comes to genetic expression, epigenetics is way more powerful and you have so much control over it and it's not a journey. I think people think well, how am I going to do this? Within minutes and seconds of feeding your body and nourishing your body, you're already changing that expression and that's how fast your body works to try to get back to homeostasis.

Philip Pape: 4:25

Yeah, and that's a good way to put it right. The body is always adapting to the stimulus you give it, and it can be very quick. We see that in strength training. You know people who haven't trained for years and then all of a sudden they start training and within a week they're just much stronger and feeling differently, and it's amazing. Before we get into more of that, I am curious when it comes to talking about the gut as a brain. It's kind of the connection I wanted to explore here. There's a term called the enteric nervous system right, a bunch of nerve cells in there. I actually am not too familiar with this concept and I'm not sure the listener is, so can you explain that for us?

Dr. William Ferro: 4:58

Yeah, so full disclosure. I'm a gut health enthusiast more than biological expert. I just have watched it work wonders within my own practice. So maybe I'll give you a little background. I'll go into that.

Dr. William Ferro: 5:10

I was a chiropractor. I had 30 chiropractic offices and gyms. I was watching people struggle. We added in physical therapy, massage, medical doctors, we had every modality known to man working inside these clinics, inside these big gyms, including personal trainers. And then I was young in my world thinking I can out-science the body. So I started doing breath tests, saliva tests, poop tests, you name it. And as I thought I was getting closer to the truth, it just took me further away until I started realizing we keep blaming the plant and not looking at the soil, and that's what got me down the road of digestive health. So I know just enough to be dangerous, but I do things like.

Dr. William Ferro: 5:49

One of our medical doctors is from Duke University. You know Paul Wishmeyer. You'll hear him on our podcast. He knows every study that has ever transpired. He can trace every molecule in the body down to the enteric nervous system. So what I will just say is that the gut brain, or the cheek-to-cheek nutrition I'm talking about every step of the way, relies on good gut bacteria and that's where the gut bacteria is actually creating a lot of these neurotransmitters which you just mentioned, a lot of the hormones within our body, and they're communicating back and forth. We think that your brain is just controlling your body, but actually they're starting to realize that more of it's coming from the gut. Now there's a direct line connection from the vagus nerve, so there is a nerve connection, but if you really looked at it pound for pound, there's more neurologic activity actually coming from the gut brain, from the rest of the body, than the other way around. So that's why they're calling it the second brain and some people are saying it might even be the first brain.

Philip Pape: 6:47

Yeah, that's really fascinating. So it's bidirectional. Not only is it bidirectional, you're saying, maybe this second brain is more predominant in our outcomes. So maybe we could break down what does that mean for how our gut health then influences? We know it influences digestion, but our mood right, Our cognitive function, the things that we normally associate with our brain, even our performance and things like that how does that work?

Dr. William Ferro: 7:13

Well, I think it does go this way up, because your brain can't eat an apple, right? Sure, even if I didn't think about it, if someone forced me to eat an apple, I'm going to get the benefit of that apple. And so this is what's so important to me. Number one if you're listening, it's not your fault. If you take nothing away from this podcast, it is not your fault. I just watched another Instagram post yesterday of some beefy character telling people you just got to work out, you loser, you're a piece of crap, you're lazy, you're unmotivated and I'm like, okay, great.

Dr. William Ferro: 7:47

So here's a baby being born in the last 20 years, exposed to over 256 chemicals before it takes its first breath. 200 are cancer causing. Then it comes out, most likely C-section, because C-sections have risen. It doesn't get past the mom's good bacteria. So one of the best gifts your mom's ever going to give you is that first culture of bacteria to propagate this ecosystem, this soil, this cheek-to-cheek nutrition. So a lot of people are devoid of that.

Dr. William Ferro: 8:14

And then what do we do? We give antibiotics immediately. So we do everything we can to kill off that microbiome. The studies show one round of antibiotics can throw up your gut for up to a year dysbiosis, and so this already you start, not at the starting line behind. Then you get into the world of okay, well, the drinking water. Now, if you can Google this, is the rainwater safe for human consumption. Nope, there's forever chemicals, and not just in cities. Every part of the planet you find forever chemicals PFAS you can look that up. I always love when I hear things like they're still not sure if it can negatively affect the body. I can tell you clearly any chemical that is man-made, don't eat it. So that's that.

Dr. William Ferro: 8:57

Then you look at the pharmaceuticals in our drinking water. You look at the microplastics in our bloodstream, the rates of infertility and inflammation. That is what is causing this disruption of the brain-gut connection and I think, to start the podcast, that's what's going to make you feel like you're running an internal marathon. That's what's going to get your adrenal glands fired up. That's what's going to get your body craving sodium, potassium and sugar, because it's constantly in fight or flight or freeze mode and your body is actually doing, is acting healthy to an unhealthy situation and is exactly doing what it's designed to do.

Dr. William Ferro: 9:27

So stop thinking your metabolism has left you for a younger man or a younger woman. Stop blaming yourself that. It takes willpower. And I understand that you're full of doubt because every commercial tells you you should be doubtful, that you should look outside for your health. But that's just not the case. If you start with this gut, the gut takes over and puts you on autopilot. And so me sitting here and thinking well, if you get the gut it's supposed to be, I'm going to lose weight effortlessly and easy. No way, that's how you were designed right.

Philip Pape: 9:56

Yeah, no, I love it. So first of all, about those beefy 20 something fitfluencers on Instagram, you know, this is why I try not to get too beefy. People think it's easy, right? You mentioned a few things there, not least of which is from birth. You're exposed to things and there's choices your mother did or didn't make, and we're not judging any of that. We're just saying you don't control that. It happened and it's in your life. I've even heard whether you have pets, whether you eat food from the ground versus from the store, all of those things throughout your life and that your metabolism is very sensitive to things. I know that for sure. It's funny.

Philip Pape: 10:30

I'm going through shoulder rehab. I had rotator cuff surgery last year and it was getting very inflamed recently and my metabolism was dropping. I had a little cortisone shot after getting an MRI. My weight dropped like three pounds in a few days and everything just started to change in my metabolism. Right, I mean, it's just so sensitive to little things and I like how you're starting with one thing. You're starting with the gut and we're going to talk today about what can people do about it, because I know what people are thinking right now. You mentioned chemicals and pharmaceuticals Are you going to give us the whole? You got to do these 20 crazy things and avoid EM radiation and do cold plunges and red light therapy. Okay, so that's what I want people to know is probably a simple approach here and I want to start getting into that. Do we want to jump right into that or there's a more context first?

Dr. William Ferro: 11:21

Do a little bit, but my goal here is to first make you independently healthy and then, if you can get independently healthy, then you can do all that fun stuff and spend all the you can biohack the rest of your life, but right now we can do such small steps to maximize your health. I'm going to tell you the exact thing I take everybody through. There's no secret. You don't have to go through a labyrinth for me to tell you exactly what I discovered. So this is what I've discovered and now I've had I started with. You know probably 50, 60,000 patients of failure, so I know what failure looks like. And now I have probably 150 to 250,000 people after I learned and I feel bad for those people because I didn't keep their names and numbers. I wish I could call them from my old clinic, but now I know what success looks like. So here's what success looks like when you work with us, get you on the phone with a coach and we say all right, we believe that the gut is important and we know from science that the gut, lining the enteric system you talked about, can replenish itself. Give or take two weeks. I know that it actually starts to heal right away, but completely repair or whatnot for most people to about two weeks, and then I know three weeks in my experience is if I can reduce inflammation and things that are causing inflammation in your body for three weeks, that gives your body enough time to repair completely to the point where all the allergens are out of your body, triggers are down, and then I can bring back in food one by one so you can figure out what food works best for you.

Dr. William Ferro: 12:46

So I'm not a genius. It's an elimination reintroduction protocol, right, it's a gold standard. It's always been there. The difference is is I've had the opportunity to watch 50, 60,000 people fail and quarter of a million people succeed, and so I manipulated my what I call level one food list to be the list that I'm like. I can't tell you why I don't have broccoli or cauliflower or salmon on my list, like scientifically, you know, because if you read the plant paradox, you read a carnivore study. Someone's going to prove me wrong and switch studies in 10 seconds, flat, right, great. If that works for you, awesome. I'm just telling you that I've made people take pictures of their food for the last decade every single day sleep, mood, bowel movements, stress levels, activity levels.

Dr. William Ferro: 13:30

I've watched all this and I'm telling you that if you just stick to the food list that I give you and follow the protocol which some of it's counterintuitive you will see success. So this is what I do. I tell you all right, get you on the phone with the coach. Coach will say all right, do you cook or not cook? First question if you cook, great, we have some really easy recipes.

Dr. William Ferro: 13:47

If you don't cook, I have a nationwide meal delivery service. Because of some of the health plans that we're covered by, we only get paid for performance. So I didn't want to be in the food business and I'm not really. But it's actually cheaper than cooking yourself because I have people on Medicaid Medicare coming to us. They can't afford half the time to go buy all this stuff or they live alone, so it doesn't make sense sometimes to cook. So we have that. So basically, we have all the resources you need to be successful. But the coach's job is to say hey, let's just pick an upcoming Monday where you can just start to follow the protocol for three days. Three days of no alcohol, no artificial sweeteners.

Dr. William Ferro: 14:19

Oftentimes we send you a scale Now. Weight loss to us is just a byproduct, but it's an indicator of fluid retention inflammatory retention that, if you look at a daily basis, can give you a lot of insight. So we send them the scale. There's no app to download. All of our technology is built through text message. Now Even our AI 24-7 is built to that. It's really awesome because you can just take a picture of your dinner and it can take all the ingredients and pull all the ingredients down and then ask you hey, is this all the ingredients? 10 years ago this wasn't possible. It was awful technology. Now it actually amazes me how good it is. They can take a Chipotle bowl and tell you everything that's in it.

Philip Pape: 14:53

Hold on. Is that a part of your backend technology? Yeah absolutely, that's cool.

Dr. William Ferro: 14:57

Okay, I had an app and our app stinks Long story. But what I learned from it is I started with an online portal over a decade ago that morphed into text messaging and then text messaging with pictures, but we couldn't scale it because there was no backend back then. Now I created a backend so my coaches can see that text message and the AI can jump in between. But the great thing is is that I tell someone no alcohol, no artificial sweeteners, beef, chicken, steak, lobster, shrimp. You can be vegan, vegetarian, you could like Mexican cuisine, Indian cuisine, I don't care what.

Dr. William Ferro: 15:28

We have tons of recipes for you and the food delivery if you need it. And make sure this weekend you get prepped. You know the prep is everything right being prepared. So we just focus on that prep. We make them take pictures of their grocery cart, we make pictures of their food prep and then we say, great, you're ready to go. If you don't do that, you didn't fail. We just postpone you to next week. And if you don't do that, we postpone you. There is no such thing as failure. It's just being not prepared and we're not going to let you start unprepared.

Philip Pape: 15:55

No, I was going to say. It's like when a client says, well, I did bad or I did good, it's like, no, you just you missed your target or you hit your target right. It's data, let's move on, yeah.

Dr. William Ferro: 16:02

Agreed, and I mean you'll catch me eating a slice of pizza on a Friday night with my family, Like this isn't about, you know, being the restriction yeah, no way. But during the level one, I try to get people to stick to it as closely as possible, but I don't have to put a hammer on them because, say, look, here's the food rotisserie, chicken, mason jar, salad, simple things that you can make and your family can eat it. So here's the difference If you go on a keto and I'm not knocking any of these things, but anytime you go on something that your kids can't do, your family can't do, it's not going to be sustainable. And now you have the food prep for you and the other bozos running around your house, like my boys. So instead, because I'm using rice and burgers and chicken and they can eat along with me and they understand that, hey, this guy's not eating for calorie counting. So I never have people count calories and not weighing it. I'm just asking them to stick to this food.

Dr. William Ferro: 16:51

If you can get the highest quality meat, great. If you can get organic, phenomenal. You can't. But more importantly, I just don't want iodized salt in it. I want, you know, celtic or sea salt. I don't want you to saute in oil, olive oil, I want you to use it for flavor, cook in broth, so we give you some ways to cook. And then, if you just get up in the morning and weigh in, if you take pictures of your lunch and dinner, you have your fruit. In between we have apples, strawberries, blueberries, oranges and grapefruit. That's the kind of where we start. And then again, no pork, no tuna, no salmon and no turkey. Those are the only things we avoid. And then certain vegetables like broccoli and cauliflower, which always boggles everybody's mind Like oh, is that because it's a cruciferous vegetable? I have no idea.

Philip Pape: 17:35

Gwaetrogens. Wait before you continue. What's with this big and growing no list? I'm curious. You said alcohol and artificial sweeteners. There's also iodized salt. You mentioned certain actual what most people think of as like tasty lean foods, like pork. What's with that? What's the principle behind that?

Dr. William Ferro: 17:51

Yeah. So it's just my observation that when I'm trying to reset the gut, the people that were having pork products didn't get as great results. People with turkey products didn't get to get results, and so I just try to eliminate the variables. The faster I can get you to see results, the better it is. Now, remember that's only a short period of time, it's only a couple of weeks, and then when you bring it back in, it may be fine, or it could be the difference. So you could buy chicken at Publix and you can buy chicken at Lowe's and the person could literally have a different response. So I am just trying to reduce as many of the variables.

Dr. William Ferro: 18:25

To start, turkey right, sliced turkey versus actually someone made a turkey Bacon. I'm in North Carolina. This is like the bacon capital of the world. I can tell you that there's certain places. If you get the bacon from, it's going to react differently than the bacon gets somewhere else, which makes sense because of how they process it, what they put into it. So that's why it's just about eliminating the variables. And salmon holy crap, what did they do to salmon?

Philip Pape: 18:48

Even wild-caught salmon.

Dr. William Ferro: 18:50

No, so they didn't get sockeye.

Philip Pape: 18:56

Okay, yeah, no, I just I wanted to interject because I've definitely seen lots of different elimination diets. Some are very generalized. It's like cut out dairy, cut out gluten, cut out a couple other things. Do you have major groups or is it actually this very specific, curated list?

Dr. William Ferro: 19:08

It's a curated list. We do cut out gluten for the first little bit. We have dairy sparingly, because if you're a vegan or vegetarian it can be tough to get the proteins. Certain beans I cut out initially, but if you're vegan or vegetarian so we adapt it. And again, it's not steadfast rules. It's like all right, at least stick to this for three days.

Dr. William Ferro: 19:27

But here's what happens in three days you lose weight. Your energy goes up, even if you haven't lost weight for 30 years. You lose weight. You're like what the heck? And then, of course, you're like well, doc, that's just water weight. I don't care what weight it is, it shouldn't be there, right, whether it's fat or water. And I can prove to most people that it's fat. And the way I know that is when I was doing this in the clinics. I was doing bioimpedance testing before and after, because I was nervous. I was like people are losing weight, so dang fast on this, they're probably losing lean muscle tissue. So I started doing bioimpedance testing and then I realized, oh, actually it was fat that they were losing and I was increasing their intracellular water by like 60%, which is the big thing. Right, if you get water into your cell, that's where your metabolism is at its highest, you can stave off cancer. So I didn't put people on this just blindly.

Philip Pape: 20:12

So let's stop there again. Cause that weight loss people listen to show they know there's energy balance, but there's also the metabolic side of it and, like you said, water weight fluctuations. Do you know for sure that calorie equated? We see this and therefore it's due to like an increase in metabolism due to more water in your cells or something like that. Is it that well known?

Dr. William Ferro: 20:32

What I can say is that they're drinking on average depending on the person. We have people in their 70s or 80s doing this protocol, so I'm not going to make them drink 90 ounces of water, but generally people are drinking between 40 and 70 ounces of water, which, if you weighed out, is two to five pounds. Okay, so if I get you on the scale and the scale is going down by a pound each day half a pound depending on your size right, this is all relative, the net weight. Is it really water weight? Because you drank two to three, five pounds of water plus you're down, drank two to three, five pounds of water. Push it down.

Dr. William Ferro: 21:03

I just tell people that inflammation is leaving the body. Your body is getting in a state of ease. You're sleeping better. This is the number one way to lose weight. Right, it's to sleep better. As soon as I improve your sleep, your body's just converting more fat to energy while you're sleeping. So there's all of these factors combined versus just one or the other, and when most our average person, by the time 30 days up, they're down five and a half to seven percent of their body weight. To me that's just a high five.

Dr. William Ferro: 21:25

But what they learned was what healthy foods were causing an increase in retention of fluid, and I don't care if that fluid's fat deposit or water. They just learned how their body reacts. And once they learn that, the whole goal is just to get into a state of ease, which is the opposite of dis-ease. And when you're in a state of ease, your body functions the way it was supposed to do, which is go to sleep at night, get into a resting state, convert fat to energy. Let your brain let go of the day before that's the other thing Do the healing. And how does fat really leave the body Through respiration? But what does every one of these listeners think? They need to be in a treadmill, incline at a 45, in the target heart zone, getting their ass kicked. In my experience, exercise is counterproductive to fat loss initially.

Dr. William Ferro: 22:13

So like we work with a gym chain it's EOS Fitness. It's 100 gyms plus. They sign up 50,000 new members a month. All of their personal training clients get to do our program. That's 5,000 people a month.

Dr. William Ferro: 22:24

Imagine me explaining initially to a personal trainer hey, I don't want you to really work them out real hard in the first couple weeks. It took me since 2011 to work with gyms because I kept getting shunned everywhere. Finally they said, okay, well, what clearly we're doing, which is knee buckling workouts, flipping tires in parking lot, a cross fix and herding no offense to cross fix, I call it cross fix. Anyway, all that inflammation. Do they have a sprained ankle? Yeah, would you run around the gym in a sprained ankle? No, well, they have a sprained digestive system because they live in this environment like we all do, and if you don't focus on that first, you're just going to be spinning your wheels, you're just going to get frustrated. Yeah, you can fool the body into weight loss, no matter what you do. You can pick any fad or fake out you want, but it always comes back because you never actually healed the gut, you never got the inflammation out of the body and once you do that, it becomes the most sustainable thing that you could ever accomplish.

Philip Pape: 23:16

There's a lot of good stuff here. So have these groups or your clients gone through studies where you know, with randomized studies comparing the two groups and also any higher level of tracking with calories, macros and things like that, and their expenditure correlated with this? And the reason I ask is it's multivariate, right? If you're going to make this big change in your diet, of course you're changing a lot of variables all at once. One variable you're probably changing is your calories are probably going to drop just because you're eating more whole foods. Potentially, right. That's why I asked are the calories equated? But probably, naturally, you're going to do that.

Dr. William Ferro: 23:50

I missed your question because I'm always yapping yes, so you're right. So what ends up happening is right. You're eating these healthy foods, and I consider them the highest octane foods. Your body gets what it needs out of these high octane foods and whatever it needs outside of that, it gets while it's sleeping from your reserves. So, without a doubt, your calories are going to drop, but most of the time when someone does a program, they have such dieting mentality that we're literally screaming at them, like we just saw. That's why I make you take a picture too. I'm like you're not eating enough at them, like we just saw. That's why I make you take a picture too. I'm like you're not eating enough.

Dr. William Ferro: 24:23

By and large most of the weight loss stalls we ever see. Here's the number one culprits behind the weight loss stalls. Number one not enough sleep hands down sleep. Number two not enough water, because now you're eating all this fibrous food and it needs extra water because the fiber is soaking it up, so you actually need to drink more water. When you're putting in that fibrous food and then just not eating enough, not rotating your proteins, you keep eating chicken all the time. You're not diversing the bacteria. You don't have enough digestive enzymes. I just take everybody through this algorithm and then I teach them to ask themselves these questions Right now. It's cool that AI is doing it it's actually analyzing all this stuff but before that I would just teach the clients, because those are the culprits. People will say well, do you think it's going to work for me? I know your body works, ma'am. You built a baby in nine months without Googling it. You think this should be physical?

Philip Pape: 25:13

It's like the principles are all the same. Your individual response will differ, but you're taking them through the process of discovering that for themselves, hence the re-edition of certain things and tracking all the data, which I love. And the reason I keep kind of harping on the one little piece in my mind of your metabolism and your expenditure is I'm a big fan of energy flux, like eating more to move more, not restricting, not cutting, and even during fat loss, I want people eating as much as possible and still losing the weight they want to lose, which, like you said, sleep is huge, like five 700 calories a day of overconsumption when you don't get enough sleep, let alone the belly fat storage and the different body composition you know, nutrient partitioning and all that. I'd be very curious to see how much people's expenditure, metabolism has increased just in and of itself from this kind of approach anyway.

Dr. William Ferro: 26:03

Yeah, I could equate to the fact that I know their metabolisms have increased or improved from the intracellular water. That's hands down. When I used to do that biometric, that was the thing that got me. It wasn't so much that I saw better body fat, it was the fact that you were increasing intracellular water, and that is huge. Right. You want the water in the cell get that tenacity so it can do what it needs to do.

Dr. William Ferro: 26:25

But the people that come to us I think from a study perspective we are a CDC-approved diabetes, fully recognized diabetes, which means we had to submit data. But all they were really looking for is how fast we can get somebody to 5% weight loss and how sustainable it was. And compared to our peers, not even close. Because people are so stuck in that paradigm of move more, eat less. All you got to do, it's so simple, like everyone else, and I'm just saying just get out of the body's way and remove interference.

Dr. William Ferro: 26:51

You realize that when I do the call we have 400 people on our Zoom call each week. I'll say, okay, does anyone have a lotion right next to them? And they'll say, yeah, I said, pick it up. What's the first ingredient? It's either aqua or water. Why is that? Well, because it can sell you a bunch of water, basically, and a bunch of chemicals and call it something cool. I said do you think that water actually moisturizes your skin? No, if we absorbed water in our skin as soon as we came out of the shower, we would be a hundred pounds.

Dr. William Ferro: 27:18

Like a sponge, yep we would be a hundred pounds Like a sponge. Yep, yeah, it's not that case. They just do it to sell you. And if it's water in it in a bottle, what else do they put in to keep it from having bacteria and antibacteria? So you're literally killing off all the skin bacteria, which is a huge part of your ecosystem. Does that really cause an issue? Take it away. Watch what happens. Take that stuff away. All these little minor things you can do to get maximal improvement.

Nancy: 27:42

Take that stuff away, All these little minor things you can do to get maximal improvement. Hi, my name is Nancy. I'd love to give a massive thank you to Philip of Wits and Weights for his work with my 16-year-old daughter. When my 16-year-old came to me, you know she wanted some support with her nutrition. She wasn't happy with her body image and the trend that her weight was going. We were very concerned about what kind of help we could get for her, and all of those concerns were completely allayed by work with Philip. You know he was so respectful of any of our concerns. He adapted any of his programs to really fit working with a teen rather than the busy professionals that he normally works with. His coaching style really resonated with her and we're just literally so grateful that he has taught her so many of the skills and life habits that we hope now she'll take through her entire life so huge. Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape: 28:33

You were talking about the elimination diet at first, getting in tune with your body. You mentioned things like stress. You mentioned inflammation. I don't know if you mentioned immunity gut immunity yet either, but maybe let's start from there the stress and the inflammation because that can get really fuzzy in the way influencers talk about this stuff. It's out to lunch speaking of quacks. Educate us.

Dr. William Ferro: 28:56

So the studies are out there, anxiety-related. So they're doing fecal transplants. Now, right, so you can take fecal transplants. They just launched a new study for autism where they showed promise in doing fecal transplants. So fecal transplant is taking the poop from somebody healthy and implant it to somebody who's unhealthy. They have studies on mice. You know overweight mice, skinny mice. They changed the fecal matter and the obese mice get skinny and skinny.

Dr. William Ferro: 29:20

So to me there's volumes of information to say, yeah, this gut health is real. What really gets me the most, though, is the father of modern medicine already told us this 2,500 years ago and said look well to the gut for the root of all disease. That's Hippocrates. He also said let food be thy medicine. So I just take those two as my standard, and the only other person that I watched and learned from.

Dr. William Ferro: 29:43

I got to see Jack LaLanne speak at one of the health and fitness trade shows, and I forget. Just like I told people, don't forget, it's not your fault. He said to me if man made it, don't eat it. And that's the simple principles behind it. Now, does that mean go run out and buy a probiotic? Does that mean that you have to go get your gut and your breath test to make no, no, no, no, no, no. Your body knows what to do. The best pharmacist or chemist is already here. You just have to get out of its way.

Dr. William Ferro: 30:11

And you're talking to a guy that I have supplements, I have probiotics and enzymes. The only reason why I did it is for it's like insurance. I want you to having kefir, I want you having kefir, I want you having sauerkraut, I want you to have real fermented foods that actually can help you repopulate the gut. But if you don't also eat the fiber, so when you eat apple and you're eating fibrous foods like salads, and even the proteins, it goes to your large intestines. Your body can't break it down, so it ferments. Well, that's a good thing, because that's what the bacteria live off of. So if you take, you know, some probiotic or the new fancy ones they have and say this is the greatest thing, it's like oh, did you eat an apple today? Because if you didn't, no prebiotic. Oh well, that's okay. I took this other powder, prebiotic fiber. I'm not in those things, I'm just saying it's sitting on your counter already, the prebiotic fiber. An orange, Just go grab that. It's going to have much more bioavailability than anything in a bottle.

Philip Pape: 31:03

Let's address that, because I totally agree and I think people overcomplicate this stuff and they try to fix everything with a pill and just eat more fiber, eat more types of fiber, diversity of fiber, and it tastes great and it fills you up and it's not very many calories. It's like everything win, win, win. I have a sweet tooth. All right, try some grapes or whatever. I know one question people talk about is if you've gone your whole life let's say 40, 50 years very bland diet, you have all these things against you in early childhood potentially. And is it possible that your gut bacteria is so wiped out and depleted that there's just not much there to feed? How do we restore that?

Dr. William Ferro: 31:40

So the refluorization happens, as I said, within seconds. The second you go to the store and go get kefir that has no blueberries in it strawberries right, a real good kefir, and so you can even make yourself home and you can have it infinitely for the rest of your life. Then you have an apple. That second, your ecosystem is already starting to get better, and then you just add on that. So it's very simple. It's step by step, minute by minute, day by day. Every cell, tissue and organ in the body is constantly replenishing themselves. So you'll see, on our website, when we talk about dramatic transformations and guaranteed jaw-dropping transformation, my jaw-dropping transformation isn't just that you have a good before and after picture. It's the fact that when I started, your refrigerator looked like a carnival and when I'm done, it looks like a farmer's market. And you mentioned something about cravings. What ends up happening is, as you just go step by step, day by day, your brain and gut start communicating it and they start craving good stuff. If you go through all my video testimony, people say I can't believe I'm eating more apples. I probably ate more apples in the last 21 days than I ate in the last 20 years, or I ate more and be like I don't know if I could do that, just give it three days, see the results, see how it goes. And then on the fourth day you're gonna say, all right, this is working. And then, day seven, 10, people say why does your skin look so good? Why is your hair so strong? The most intense thing that I've seen two intense things. Number one, by the elimination.

Dr. William Ferro: 33:09

There was a woman named Julie Hughes. She was working out at Eos Fitness. She had a personal trainer working out with them three times a week for a year, loved the trainer, loved the strength, loved the you know it was part of her lifestyle Didn't lose more than a pound. So what do we do when that happens? We don't blame the trainer, we don't blame the doctors, we blame the client. Oh, you must be out eating Chick-fil-A and all this other stuff when you leave there, which, of course, if you beat her up enough and her inflammation's high, she's going to crave Chick-fil-A after that workout. Not her fault. So, anyway, she does all this, but she stayed true to her diet, right, and if you looked at it, it was turkey, it was lean proteins, it was all the things that you could get on any magazine she was doing right. The trainer says, hey, go check the doctor. The doctor checks thyroid, checks the liver. You know thousands and thousands of dollars to check this woman out.

Dr. William Ferro: 33:52

She has outrageous anxiety and almost to the point of depression. And guess what happens? She starts getting gaslit into thinking there is something wrong with her, just like every person who's struggling with their weight. Everyone's struggling with oh you know what? It's just me, I have no willpower whatever. She goes on the program reluctantly. The trainer's like just try it Three days in. She's like okay, this is working. Four days in within 60 days she lost like 37 pounds. Great, high five. Whatever.

Dr. William Ferro: 34:18

I brought her in to talk to all the trainers at the gym. I flew out there and she said that wasn't it for me. The fact that I backed off on my exercise reset my internal system was what really started to get the weight off. But then my anxiety went away and I just could sleep and I had energy in the afternoon and those were the real non-scale victories that were great and I said okay, well, lastly, tell everybody here what you uncovered from your trigger foods right, the foods that actually weren't working well for her Quinoa, greek yogurt and raspberries. Every one of your listeners right now is probably like, yeah, I have Greek yogurt and I'm not saying it's bad, but it wasn't working for her. So unless humans as buff as you are on anyone go through an elimination like I, think you talk about this.

Dr. William Ferro: 35:03

It's about experimenting with yourself. Unless you go through this experiment, you'll probably never know. You'll probably be cycling through it. You'll probably fall for every bottle pill and fat out there because you're desperate, and then you'll be preyed on by guess what? The pharmaceutical industry. Who's going to say we got this GLP-1. We got this, and I'm not mad at you.

Dr. William Ferro: 35:25

People say, well, that's because people want a quick fix. Dude, we all want a quick fix. If my car breaks, I don't want the mechanic to take a month, I want to fix things to do. So you go get this GLP-1, which is basically the same chemical that's already made in the digestive system, the epithelial cells, and the one they made in the pharmaceutical lab is only 80% like that GLP-1. Or just let your body do it. And what we found? Our studies show that someone doing this protocol will lose double the weight in half the time and obviously at a fraction of the $1,000 a month that these stupid drugs are costing, and I guess stupid is not a great word. I understand why you're doing it, but if you're doing it you can come off of it. Help, of course, but getting you to think that outside in is the way to get your health. No, it's all inside out.

Philip Pape: 36:12

Yeah, I'm fully with you and we did an episode recently about all those drugs too, kind of the dark side of them and who may benefit or not. But yeah, I hear what you're saying there. So a few things. You mentioned First that fermented foods, fibrous foods, can help. I think the term you used was reflora-ize your gut Is that what you're saying? Like the flora of your gut. I think it is a big misunderstanding that you have to take probiotics to do that. So that's a good takeaway.

Philip Pape: 36:36

The second is the fact that this elimination diet if you've never done this before and honestly you're getting me to want to do one again Do it the way that you suggest, because I want to try that out Could be a game changer for the rest of your life, because now you know what your trigger foods are and they're not necessarily what everyone else's trigger foods are and you can't tell what they are until you do that right, until you get rid of them for a bit. Skin hair, you said looking better. All that, okay. Going back to the foods, what are the things you mentioned before? You said alcohol. That makes sense. Sugar there's a lot of debate about sugar and artificial sweeteners. What are your thoughts in general, and let's separate maybe the types of sugar so people don't lump fruit in there necessarily. What are your thoughts on those?

Dr. William Ferro: 37:15

So as soon as we say the word artificial, jack the Lane man made it, don't eat it. So it's like one of the hardest things, I think, for most people. Well, what about my coffee creamer and all this other stuff? And I said, look, put cream in it, put honey in it, put a natural form of sugar. If you need it, do it. If you can avoid it, great, you're going to get enough of those great sugars from the fruit that you're eating. So again, start with three good days, see how it goes. I think, as long as it's a natural sweetener, wives, don't listen to anything you say. I got too many stories about that, her coming home saying I think I should start doing something for my gut health. I saw something on Dr Phil. This was a long time ago. Not Dr Phil, dr Oz, and I'm like you know, this is what I do for a living.

Philip Pape: 37:56

Oh geez, Don't try to coach your wife. That's not going to work.

Dr. William Ferro: 37:59

Rule number one she was drinking those Zevias or the xylitol thing, and I'm like I know this is going to be the next worst thing out there. Just have it natural. If God made it, put it on this planet and it's not highly processed, that's your best bet. And my honey is a good way to go, if you can get a nice organic honey and put it in there and sweeten some things and what you'll see is that your gut bacteria, as it floralizes or refloralizes it, will crave just the right amount of everything. So I think you talked about like macros and micros before.

Dr. William Ferro: 38:27

Unless you're training, training, right, so I would come to you and say all right, listen, I got their baseline. This person's ready to start doing next level stuff. Yes, you got to do macros, you're training them, you're putting them through more strenuous stuff, so that's what you have to do. But for the regular Joe, your body's going to know what macros and micros to give. You crave it, just like when you get dehydrated. Someone can do a test and whatever tastes funny to you is what you're missing from a mineral standpoint.

Philip Pape: 38:53

Yeah, and I understand. So there's always a debate between intuitive eating and tracking, and my position is you can have both work together. It depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to change your body composition or your weight very deliberately in a certain period of time, the more precise you can do that, the better the outcome. And if you combine it with what you said eating the right foods for you, developing intuition, listening to your body while you do that you can kind of get the best of both, in my opinion.

Dr. William Ferro: 39:18

It starts with tracking, it gets back to intuition, totally agree.

Philip Pape: 39:27

Yeah, and you can always throw tracking back in or it depends on what you're tracking. And all that Cravings yeah, I think that's really important as well, because I think we make excuses for ourselves when it comes to emotional eating Again a big hot topic out there but oftentimes you're trying to solve the trauma from your childhood to fix emotional eating, and I don't think it has to be that way Most of the time, like you said, it could be cravings, it could be emotional hunger, that once you find things that work for you, that work well for you, you can kind of satisfy what the craving was satisfying right With something that works with you.

Dr. William Ferro: 39:54

For sure. So there is a chicken and egg scenario there. So in my opinion, if you do not first start with restoring the gut-brain connection, it's very difficult to have therapy emotional, mental therapy to actually work. So a good example would be go to a 22-year-old these days and say hey, how many of your friends are anxious and depressed? They'd say who is it?

Dr. William Ferro: 40:16

Well, 90% of your happy hormone, or one of your happy hormones, serotonin, is made in the gut, and so we've been giving kids SSRI uptake inhibitors forever, not doing anything. The same way that when someone has acid reflux, we tamper down, we give an anti-acid. Acid reflux is your body saying I'm not breaking this food down properly, I'm trying to produce more acid to get the job done and you're bringing it down. You're not doing anything. So when it comes to this gaslighting of someone who has anxiety, depression, like well, I want to first just focus on your digestive health, get the soil right, and then, when you start to unpack those traumas, you're ready for it. And then, when you start to do those things that can bring to the, your body can absorb it much stronger, just like it can absorb nutrients much better if your digestive system's working.

Philip Pape: 41:09

So it all comes back to the gut, love it. So then, another question for health with a lot of folks today is autoimmune conditions, everything from Hashimoto's for the thyroid to rheumatoid arthritis. Right, just how much of that is tied into the gut, do we think?

Dr. William Ferro: 41:21

So I'll just say this If you go on a website of any autoimmune and say what is the etiology of Crohn? No one knows right, there's no known etiology for all these conditions. They're just we observe a certain thing that's going on with the human for three or more months and call it a chronic condition. And then we have markers. Right, there's some markers.

Philip Pape: 41:41

Antibodies and stuff. Yeah, antibodies.

Dr. William Ferro: 41:43

Markers. In my experience, things like PCOS women who all of a sudden realize they have PCOS. They can't lose weight, they have very tough times with fertility, fertility rates or infertility rates are going up. Some of the best. We have Carolina Conceptions here locally. They've been sending members to us forever and this was by accident. My neighbor was like hey, I did your program. Did you know? I was having trouble conceiving and getting pregnant and I actually was able to get pregnant naturally, after trying IVF and all this other stuff.

Dr. William Ferro: 42:11

Anytime you bring inflammation down the body, you reduce insulin resistance. Of course you can reverse type 2 diabetes, but all of this plays into a woman's hormones, the autoimmune issues, most of the time. So what got me frustrated as a chiro is we're doing all this work on somebody and their pain was getting better for a short period of time. Why is that was? Were we bad? Did we not know the right motions? Were they not? Was the member not doing the right? No, they have systemic inflammation. Inflammation is the root of all pain and so you don't get rid of that. You're going to be chasing pain all your whole life. So 100% is a correlation there. And of course, go just go back to Hippocrates, look well to the gut for the root of all disease. And if you're going to talk autoimmune, which is just seems to be getting higher and higher each year, glycophosphate Roundup Ready. You know 50 years. It's 50 year anniversary of Roundup glycophosphate in our agriculture and it's got into everything.

Philip Pape: 43:04

Everything, yeah, everything, yeah. I eat a lot of oatmeal and I get organic. For that reason, for the oatmeal, I know.

Philip Pape: 43:11

Okay, yeah, man, I have a million other things I could get to here, so I'm trying to keep the list narrow for the interest of time. But you mentioned exercise and I totally get and again I talk about this as well like too much cardio, too much movement. Your body sometimes has a response, a negative response, to that because you're overstressing it, especially when you're not in a relaxed state to begin with. But what about strength training? Like, where does that fit in? Is there any tie-in that you look into related to lifting weights, especially heavy weights, and the gut health?

Dr. William Ferro: 43:41

Yeah. So that's why my relationships with people like you and with the gyms is that I'm really good at this 30 day. Let me just help you reset your lifestyle. Let me reset your movement. What will happen is, as your energy comes up, some weird thing is going to happen. There was a time that we used to drag you from the gym. Now we're going to have to drag you out. And now you're going to say, oh, now I know what it's like to be like a gym rat, because you always thought that gym rats had some type of mental superiority over everybody else. Their system was working properly. So as you start to add those foods that give you that more energy I think you talked about it more fuel to do more things, then you start craving it.

Dr. William Ferro: 44:20

So, if you come in, strength training is one of the strength and flexibility, right. So you're either training for strength for today, but also at my age I'm about to turn 50. I'm turning 75 right now. So strength training, without a doubt. You know people, when they work out, right, you put weight. You're like, yeah, I'm building muscle, but you're also building bone, right. So that is for strength wise, especially for females and put weight. You're like, yeah, I'm building muscle, but you're also building bone, right? So that is for strength-wise, especially for females and males alike. You really want to do a strength training and do it the right way with a professional. If it's in your budget, get a professional. Everybody in the world who has a coach on anything does better. When it comes to fitness, it is the most important thing. What they can accomplish in a 15-minute session. You'd be walking around the gym for 45 minutes doing this every set 100% man, 100%.

Philip Pape: 45:10

Yeah, you're going to learn what it would have taken you three years of trial and error in one session. Very important, okay. So those listening yet another reason to do what Dr Farrow is saying to get this reset so that you can have a better aligned nutrition. Gives you fuel, gives you energy, and then you want to go into the gym and now you have another craving and that is lifting weights and being active. So we love to have that. And then it's not willpower, it's not like an excuse, a punishment, a thing you have to do, it's a thing you really want to do and can't stop doing, which is fun. What about pets? So we have two dogs, we have hamsters, chickens I've heard a lot of good things about pets and gut health.

Dr. William Ferro: 45:46

Yeah, so they are bringing something to your environment, right, soil, probably from the outside, which is probably the best. You're petting them against some soil. So I think that I'm not an expert on this, but I've thought about that too. My pup is sitting over there. I think the endorphin release you get from petting a pet is probably the one that's going to calm the gut down the most, and so, without a doubt, I think it's a positive. Now, it also could be negative.

Dr. William Ferro: 46:11

So I had people go through the protocol and they're following it. When I go through these 10 triage things that I've learned, like sleep, water, all the things I mentioned, rotating proteins, not eating enough Then I go all right, we exhausted that list. Why is this person on a stall? They have bowel movements, everything's going. What's the stall? What's the plateau? Well, I just moved into a new apartment. Ah, what did they have? Is it carpet? Yeah, are you allergic to anything? I'm allergic to cats. Well, they probably had a cat, you know. So, when it comes to certain people, it could actually be a health detractor and could cause inflammation and couldn't make it difficult for them to see results in their health, because it's just another environmental factor that's causing issues.

Philip Pape: 46:56

Yeah, fair enough. I used to be allergic to cats and then we got cats and the allergy went away and it all worked out, but I definitely know what that's like.

Dr. William Ferro: 47:03

Points too. So like there's some people that start my protocol and say I can't have dairy, like don't even try it, and I say, okay, well, let's just go through 21 days and let's just bring it back in. But let's bring a high quality dairy in and see what happens. They go. Oh my God, my body's fine. Same thing with gluten. We have people that think that they're sensitive to gluten, but when they get rid of it for a little bit and they bring it back in, they bring a high quality one, one that's not got garbage in it, maybe fresh baked or start with sourdough type things they go. Oh, wow, I can now enjoy this finally.

Philip Pape: 47:33

Yeah, it's so true, and I suspect that even one of the things we track with digestion is, even in the moment, the things you're eating. If you could eat mindfully. I suspect there's a lot of awareness of how things make you feel. That gets amplified through this process, because now it's like you totally got rid of it and now you're boom, adding it in. You can detect that easily, yeah, okay. So I'd like to ask this of all guests, doc, and that is is there a question you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Dr. William Ferro: 48:04

That's a great question about a question you wish I had asked, and what is your answer? That's a great question about a question. This is what I'd like to leave with, because I wanted to give them practical stuff. I hate to like be the well. Only if you sign up with us, then you can. If you go to better healthcom, b-e-t-r healthcom you can go and find under our blogs I think it is it's the very first blog always is it's pinned and basically it's like the whole protocol is laid out what to eat, how to eat. You can get it for free. You can go download it all for free.

Dr. William Ferro: 48:31

The only thing I'm offering is part of the community, a coach, like I mentioned, to give that guidance, planning and, of course, accountability. Man, it's always just helpful to have that accountability. And then, of course, the technology, the AI stuff. It's phenomenal for tracking, but you can absolutely do this yourself and you could literally start right now. You could go on there and just start following those things and I bet you you'll feel different very quickly.

Dr. William Ferro: 48:54

The only thing I ask you to do if you're going to do it is if you get prepared. Let's say you're so gung ho, you go to the 24 hour grocery. Get all stuff, weigh yourself first thing in the morning, no clothes on. Now don't do that in your kitchen or in the front room just yet. Do it in the bathroom, weigh yourself and then, literally for yourself, take pictures of everything you eat off of that list. Track your sleep, track your bowel movements, check all those data elements and do it for three days and you will see such quick success that you will be amplified. Say all right, I think I can follow us.

Dr. William Ferro: 49:26

It's a simple procedure, it's not rocket science, and we've been helping people reverse type 2 diabetes. We're covered by, you know, not only a direct consumer where people can pay out of pocket. We're covered by Blue Shield of California, florida Blue. I work that hard by getting them to do pay for performance. But some of the craziest things I've seen. We had a woman, 72 years old. She was on metformin, she was on Wegovy. She came off of all that and she loved it. She was down I don't know 30 pounds, whatever the poundage was, all these other great non-skill victories and she said, doc, I'm starting to get headaches and my vision's blurry, oh man. So I went through all my resources, couldn't figure it out. She went to three primary care. Finally, she goes to the eye doctor. Eye doctor says your prescriptions changed, oh. And I said okay, that makes sense.

Dr. William Ferro: 50:13

She said no, it got better oh interesting and then when you start googling blood sugar and insulin and I, you know, you know, your you start to see that how you eat can affect your vision within days and it seems like such a miracle. But it's like then we step back, like oh duh, like yeah, of course, right From every cell in your body will start to get better instantly. As soon as you start focusing on nourishing the gut. You are instantly better.

Philip Pape: 50:43

It makes total sense. Well, thank you for that. That's super powerful for folks to go to betterhealthcom and get that article, and it ties in with a lot of what we talk about here, and a lot of people are already going to be weighing themselves and tracking. So this little extra step of the elimination diet to kind of reset yourself could be super helpful. I'm going to go find that myself and shamelessly borrow from that as well for my clients and send them your way too if they need it, and the medical tie-in and insurance is all really, really great. So I think you already answered my next question, which is where can listeners find you? I think you want them to go to betterhealthcom, right?

Dr. William Ferro: 51:14

Absolutely.

Philip Pape: 51:15

Okay, is there anyone else on social that they can reach out, or is that the best place?

Dr. William Ferro: 51:18

That's the best place. I know we have Instagram and stuff, but that's not my, not your bag. However, I'm going to put you on the spot here, so are you now going to become a guest on my podcast?

Philip Pape: 51:28

Let's do it All right. Yeah, all right. Of course we're going to do it. Yeah, cool, absolutely.

Dr. William Ferro: 51:35

I don't know what we're going to talk about, but it'll be fun.

Philip Pape: 51:38

It's going to be all fitness. We follow the Quacks and Hypochondriacs podcast and you'll get that episode as well.

Dr. William Ferro: 51:45

All right, Doc, thanks so much for coming on. It was a pleasure, my pleasure, it's fun talking to you.

Eat More To Lose Weight? (The Iron Triangle of Fat Loss) | Ep 204

Just eat more food and you'll lose the weight!

This advice has been floating around the fitness industry for years and it still persists. Today, we are going to use an engineering concept called the Iron Triangle to show why this idea doesn't hold up.

What looks like "eating more" might actually be your first step toward effective fat loss, but not for the reasons you might expect.

To learn more about losing fat sustainably, join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email

Main Takeaways:

• The Fat Loss Iron Triangle (Energy, Sustainability, Speed) reveals why "eat more to lose weight" advice often fails. You can't optimize all three factors at once.

• Accurate calorie tracking is crucial. Many who think they're undereating are actually consuming more than they realize, leading to stalled progress.

• Sustainable fat loss requires finding your personal balance within the Iron Triangle, prioritizing consistent, moderate progress over extreme measures.

Episode Mentioned:

• Your Very First Cut (Lose 10-30 Pounds of Fat) | Ep 197

Episode summary:

We take a deep dive into the persistent myth that eating more can lead to weight loss. This notion has permeated the fitness industry, creating confusion and frustration for many. Through a comprehensive examination of energy balance, metabolism, and the engineering principle of the iron triangle, this episode aims to set the record straight.

The episode begins by addressing the widespread belief that increasing calorie intake can somehow accelerate weight loss. Philip Pape uses the iron triangle concept—comprising cost, quality, and schedule—to illustrate the fallacies in this idea. Just as in project management, where optimizing one aspect often compromises another, the same applies to fat loss. The iron triangle's principles are applied to managing energy intake (cost), sustainability (quality), and rate of fat loss (schedule).

Heather's journey is a poignant example of how misguided coaching can exacerbate confusion. Misunderstandings about energy balance and metabolism often lead people to believe they are eating too little, when in fact, they are not accurately tracking their calorie intake. Heather's story underscores the importance of precise calorie tracking and how a perceived increase in food intake often results from more balanced eating habits rather than simply eating more.

The episode then delves into the complexities of energy balance, emphasizing that a calorie deficit is essential for fat loss. The notion that eating more will boost metabolism and lead to fat loss is debunked by highlighting the importance of accurate calorie tracking. When individuals begin to track their calories meticulously, they often discover they are consuming more than they realized. This newfound awareness allows for better dietary adjustments, which can seem like an increase in food intake but is actually a move towards a balanced diet.

The iron triangle's relevance to fat loss is further explored by breaking down its three components. Energy, or calorie intake and expenditure, is the foundation of fat loss. A calorie deficit is necessary, but it must be balanced with sustainability and rate of loss. Sustainability refers to how well one can adhere to a fat loss plan over time. An overly aggressive calorie deficit might lead to faster results but is often unsustainable due to increased hunger and lower energy levels.

Rate of loss is the third component, where a moderate, sustainable rate of loss is emphasized. Rapid weight loss can lead to muscle loss and other negative health impacts, making it crucial to find a balanced approach. The episode advocates for a moderate calorie deficit that allows for muscle preservation and overall well-being.

Consistency and realistic goal-setting are highlighted as the secrets to long-term success. The importance of setting achievable goals and maintaining consistent efforts cannot be overstated. Listeners are encouraged to focus on sustainable practices rather than quick fixes, which often lead to frustration and setbacks.

The episode also tackles the psychological aspects of weight loss. The belief that eating more will lead to weight loss often stems from misunderstandings about calorie tracking. When people start tracking their calories accurately, they become more aware of their actual intake, leading to better dietary habits. This newfound awareness can make it seem like they are eating more, but in reality, they are simply eating the right amount for fat loss.

Philip Pape's engineering background adds a unique perspective to the discussion. By applying the iron triangle principle to fat loss, he provides a structured framework that helps listeners understand the trade-offs involved in any weight loss strategy. This approach encourages a more analytical and evidence-based mindset, moving away from oversimplified and misleading advice.

In summary, this episode of Wits and Weights offers a comprehensive guide to debunking the 'Eat More, Lose Weight' myth. By examining the concepts of energy balance, metabolism, and the iron triangle, listeners gain valuable insights into effective fat loss strategies. Heather's story serves as a cautionary tale about the dangers of misguided coaching and the importance of accurate calorie tracking. The episode underscores the necessity of a sustainable, moderate calorie deficit to preserve muscle mass and overall well-being. Consistency and realistic goal-setting are emphasized as the keys to long-term success.

For anyone struggling with conflicting weight loss advice, this episode provides clarity and actionable steps to achieve fat loss goals effectively. By focusing on the right balance of energy intake, sustainability, and rate of loss, listeners can navigate their weight loss journey with confidence and achieve lasting results.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:03

Just eat more food and you'll lose the weight.

Philip Pape: 0:06

Have you ever heard that advice? All you got to do is eat more calories and the weight's just going to start flying off. This advice has been floating around the fitness industry for years and it still persists. Today, we are going to use an engineering concept called the iron triangle to show why this idea doesn't hold up. This claim doesn't hold up. We'll explore how misunderstandings whether it's energy balance or other elements behind the scenes are leading to people continuing to make this claim. You'll learn why.

Philip Pape: 0:35

What looks like eating more might actually be your first step toward effective fat loss, but not for the reasons you might expect. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're breaking down the eat more to lose weight idea or, shall I say, myth using a principle again straight from engineering the iron triangle, also called the project management triangle or the cost quality schedule triangle. This notion that eating more will boost your metabolism, will speed up fat loss, has become very popular, and it often comes from a misunderstanding, namely of how many calories we are actually eating and actually burning. Just this week, I talked to somebody in one of the communities I'm in who didn't realize that your metabolism adapts and changes, and that's just one of the misunderstandings going on. Today we'll uncover how people who think they're eating too little often find out they're eating more than they thought once they start tracking accurately. And that's the discovery that can make it seem like you are eating more to lose weight, when really you're just finally eating the right amount for fat loss. I do want to give a quick shout out to listener Heather M, because Heather sent me a message about struggling with this advice that inspired today's episode, and her experience shows the confusion that many people face with calorie tracking and weight loss plateaus. Let's break down this myth using our engineering lens and uncover the truth about calories, metabolism and effective fat loss in the context of the eat more to lose weight advice.

Philip Pape: 2:31

Now, this advice usually pops up when someone has been dieting for a while and then they hit a plateau, they stop losing weight, and then they hear this idea hey, you're probably just not eating enough, you need to eat more. If you eat more, you'll boost your metabolism and you'll start losing fat again. And it sounds very appealing, right, and it sounds like one of those. Ooh, I didn't realize that that must be it, especially when people put the label science-based or evidence-based and yes, I use those labels as well, but it's often used as a bait and switch to get you into their coaching program to say, look, all you've got to do is eat more food. Doesn't that sound great? But this is an oversimplified approach. And then it makes you more frustrated and confused when it doesn't work, or doesn't work like you expect, or you get blamed by your coach for not hitting the exact number. And then, oh, you didn't hit your exact. You know 1953 calories that I told you to hit. You're over by five or 10 and that's why it's not working. And specifically, I'm talking about a real person here who wrote in again Heather. She was told to eat 2000 calories a day and when she went over by even five or 10, she was criticized for overeating, right. And this is ridiculous. Like I can't imagine coaching somebody and being that much of an a-hole about it and blaming the client in that way. And this, this is ridiculous. Like I can't imagine coaching somebody and being um, that much of an a-hole about it and blaming the client in that way and obviously the guy had no idea what he was talking about. And that's why I have a podcast, um, to kind of dispel these things, because this kind of advice is nonsense and it doesn't work and it's not going to be consistent and it causes so much confusion. And so here's what we're going to do today I'm going to introduce something called the iron triangle and then we're going to apply it to this concept In engineering, in engineering project management specifically, the iron triangle represents the balance between three factors that effectively compete with each other cost, quality and schedule.

Philip Pape: 4:23

And the principle states that you cannot optimize all three simultaneously. If you improve one, it often means compromising on another. And so let's apply this concept to fat loss and its overall energy and calorie situation. First, we have cost. What is cost in our case? In our case, cost is energy your calories consumed, right, what you eat, your calorie intake and your calories burned or expenditure. So it's just the balance of energy that is your cost. Okay, the cost generally thinking in fat loss, your cost is the deficit that you're in to be able to get that fat loss.

Philip Pape: 4:59

The second leg of the triangle is quality. In our case, that quality is sustainability. It's how well you can adhere to the plan long-term, how high quality the plan is so that you could actually adhere to it and get it done. And then the third leg is schedule, or time, and in our case that is our rate of loss, how quick we're going to go and lose the fat. Right, and just as in engineering, we can't optimize all three.

Philip Pape: 5:23

So think about engineering. If you want to go faster, if you want to create the product faster, it's going to cost more. It's going to cost more in terms of people and overtime in getting suppliers to send you parts faster. So you're going to have to compromise by costing more. Or if you want to go faster, you might have to lower the quality, you might have to reduce some of the requirements and not get as many bells and whistles in your product or software. So, similarly, we can't optimize our energy balance and our sustainability and our rate of loss. In other words, we can't eat 5,000 calories and lose fat or we can't go at a super fast rate of loss, like lose three pounds a week and maintain a decent amount of energy right, we'd have to be in an extreme deficit to do that, right, or we'd have to compromise, sustainability and quality, because it's so hard to do it. So it's the same idea. And let's just break each of these down so you can see what this has to do with the eating more to lose weight.

Philip Pape: 6:27

Let's start with energy, energy, calorie, energy balance right, this is your cost. Okay, this is the foundation of fat loss. It's the foundation of changing your body mass, right, from a nutrition perspective. We're not even going to talk about strength training or specific macros. We're just talking about changing body mass. Your body needs a certain amount of energy to function and especially to function optimally. Right, that's where the compromise comes in. Like, we know we need a calorie deficit to lose weight, but if the calorie deficit's too high, we're going to start influencing negatively our hormones, we're going to lose energy, we're going to crash and burn, we're going to have cravings, we're not going to be able to adhere. Our sustainability is going to go down, right. So the size of your calorie deficit directly impacts the other two factors your sustainability and your rate of loss. Right Now let's talk about eating more.

Philip Pape: 7:17

A slight increase in calories can sometimes help in terms of your energy, your metabolism, your hormones right. But if you'd simply do so without regard for energy balance, it's not going to lead to fat loss, unless you're in a deficit. You're not going to lose fat period period. You still have to be in a calorie deficit, all right, so let's set that aside for now. That's the first leg in the iron triangle.

Philip Pape: 7:42

The second leg is our quality leg, sustainability, and this refers to how well you can adhere to your fat loss plan, both short-term and long-term. Right Meaning by long-term, I mean if it's going to take many weeks, we want to stick to it. But even in the short term, we don't want it to totally rip us apart within a week or two and then we give up. A more aggressive deficit might lead to faster results, but it could be harder to sustain due to increased hunger, lower energy, the impact to your social life and how neurotic and obsessive you have to be about all the tracking and effectively saying no to things. Right, we don't want to be in that state. This is where many people stumble. When they're told to eat more, they might again feel better temporarily because they have more energy, maybe they're no longer in a low energy state. But then, if it puts them out of a deficit, if it puts them up to their maintenance calories or higher, it's not going to give them the fat loss. It's not going to be sustainable for fat loss either. Interesting, right, it goes both ways. That's the second leg.

Philip Pape: 8:44

The third leg is your time, your schedule, which, in our case, is how fast we lose weight or lose fat. This is how quickly we go, our rate of loss. And, yes, a larger deficit will lead to faster fat loss, but it might compromise sustainability, right, because it's just too fast, you don't get to eat very much, you become hangry and miserable and it could potentially lead to muscle loss, which is even more dangerous. When we talk about fat loss, we don't want to lose muscle. If we go too fast, we're going to lose muscle. So when we go back to, should you eat more to lose weight?

Philip Pape: 9:17

It often ignores all of these factors, right, but it essentially promises a violation of the iron triangle. It promises quick results without a cost, right, and the sustainability kind of falls in between, because of course, eating more is gonna be more sustainable, but it's not gonna give you fat loss. So we have to balance all of these, that we consider the rate of loss along with the other two factors. So how do we do that right. So if we're violating the iron triangle with this nonsense claim that you can eat more and lose weight, how do we apply the iron triangle to make it effective? All right Again, let's start with energy, with cost. Instead of eating more, why don't we focus on eating the right amount, which means we have to actually create a deficit that aligns with our goals? And the only way to do that is to track and measure. And so here's where I'm going to talk about.

Philip Pape: 10:12

The biggest, I'll say, cause of people giving this advice is that you are typically okay. Let's put it this way. Let's say you do eat more and you start to lose weight. Is it because you ate more? No, it's because you think you're eating more. Why do you think you're eating more? Because you probably weren't tracking your calories accurately in the past. Now you are, and now that you know what you are eating, you probably start to tighten up what you eat in response to trying to hit certain targets, and you feel better and you have more protein, right. And now you set the deficit that you actually want and it seems like you're eating more than you were before, but you're actually eating the accurate amount because of your tracking. And another reason for this is usually, when you are not tracking, you're binging on the weekends, right, and you're starving yourselves during the week. When you start tracking, you start to balance that out and it seems like every day you're actually eating a little more because on most days you probably are, and on it seems like every day you're actually eating a little more because on most days you probably are, and on the weekends you're eating a lot less than you were, and the net effect for the average for the week is a deficit. Okay, a lot of this is mental. So, as far as energy goes, you have to know what your maintenance calories are and what your deficit needs to be.

Philip Pape: 11:26

Go listen to my recent episode called your First Cut Lose 10 to 30 pounds of fat, something like that, your first cut. And I talk about these principles. All right, the second part of the triangle we can apply is the sustainability or the quality piece. This is where we choose a deficit that you can maintain consistently over time. It may be a slower rate of loss than you quote unquote want, right, but it will lead to you sticking with it and getting the result. I think I posted a threads post recently. It said something like.

Philip Pape: 11:56

Unsuccessful people will say I need to lose 20 pounds in eight weeks. A successful person will say how fast can I go where it's sustainable and I can do it? And then, how long will it take me to lose 20 pounds? Right, there's a difference between the two. The third leg of the triangle, then, is the rate of loss, the time right, understanding that faster isn't always better. Effectively, what I just said a moderate, sustainable rate of loss, like half a percent of your body weight a week. That is what leads to you getting the outcome and sticking with it.

Philip Pape: 12:29

And now you've got the triangle nicely balanced between energy, sustainability and time, and you could actually get there, rather than this weird, nebulous, uncertain state you were in before, where you're like I don't really know what I'm eating. I feel hungry sometimes, not others. I'm probably binging on the weekends, but I'm not sure how much alcohol I had at the Mexican restaurant. This fit pro, 22 year old, on Instagram, says I just need to eat more to lose weight. And lo and behold, I start eating more and I lose weight. Well, not really Right, or you probably don't, actually, because you weren't accurately tracking before, and now you are All right. So the problem isn't that you're eating too little, it's you're not accurately tracking what you're eating, right?

Philip Pape: 13:15

I've had clients come to me convinced they're eating 1200 calories a day and not losing weight. Right, I'm just. I've cut my calories so low I'm down to 1100. I'm still not losing weight. One of the first questions I ask is are you tracking? And usually the answer is, well, no. But and right there I know what the problem is. And so when we implement precise tracking, we discover they're consuming much more on average per day. Right. On average, it might be 1100 calories Monday through Friday, and then 2000 calories on Saturday and Sunday. Right, and so sometimes it's you know, hundreds of calories more than what they thought, hundreds of calories more than what they thought.

Philip Pape: 13:51

And that is why the eat more advice is so, so dangerous and so misleading. Because if you're already eating more than you realize, if you just indiscriminately add more calories, it's going to move you further from your goal, you're going to start drifting up in weight. And now you're going to say what the F? You know what is going on. That's nonsense, and it is, and if you can understand this and understand the iron triangle, that there is a, there's a balance between cost, quality and schedule or, in our, our cases I'm sorry, in our case energy balance, sustainability and rate of loss. Ah then, instead of blindly following advice to eat more, you find the right balance of those three things for your specific situation. So let me just recap Eat more to lose weight is an oversimplification and usually completely false. The iron triangle energy, sustainability, rate of loss helps us understand the trade-offs involved in any weight loss strategy. Success comes from balancing these three, not from just increasing calories. And then tying this all together is accurate tracking and measuring, which is crucial to understand your true energy balance so that you can make informed decisions.

Philip Pape: 15:07

All right, if today's episode resonated with you, if you found it interesting, if you're like, oh, I never thought of it that way before. The iron triangle, that's pretty cool, or ah, now I understand why eating more to lose weight isn't what I thought it was, or why it may or may not work, depending on your situation. I want you to just share this episode with a friend who's been struggling with the conflicting advice out there. We are skeptics of the industry here. I want more people to be I'll call it enlightened, but really just to be inquisitive and curious, asking these questions and getting answers that apply to them, that have the nuance and context necessary to make them work in practice. So share it with a friend.

Philip Pape: 15:47

If you want to take that next step and really, really support me, please give me a five-star rating and review. In Apple and Spotify, we don't get enough of those. Very few people actually take the time to do that. I understand there's friction involved, but it really doesn't take long. Just go right now in your podcast app as you're listening to me right this moment scroll down to where it says write a review. Click that button and give it five stars and type a little blurb just what's on your mind. Hey, I love how this show XYZ done send. I would really appreciate it. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that in fat loss, as in engineering, it's all about finding the right balance. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to Wits and Weights. I'll talk to you next time.

Why Women Get Bigger, Leaner, and Sexier But Not "Bulky" From Lifting Heavy Weights | Ep 203

Is the fear of getting bulky holding you back from lifting heavy weights? Are you confused by all the mixed messages about how strength training affects a woman’s body? Do you wonder if strength training will give you that lean, toned look or make you bulk up?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) shatters the myths and uncovers the truth about how lifting really impacts your physique. Whether you’re aiming for a lean, toned look or worried about bulking up, he sets the record straight and empowers you to lift with confidence.

Philip breaks down the science of how lifting weights impacts women’s bodies. He explains how muscle growth, when combined with proper nutrition, actually contributes to a leaner, more defined look. Philip also addresses the role of cardio in your training regimen and offers tips for balancing it with strength training to optimize your results.

If you're ready to transform your physique and boost your confidence, this is a must-listen!

📩 To learn how to balance cardio and lifting, a weird little trick to burn more calories from cardio, and a sample weekly training plan to combine lifting and cardio for maximum results and recovery, join my FREE email list and ask for my “Cardio for Lifters” guide: https://witsandweights.com/email

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:41 Listener question about lifting and body composition
5:10 Muscle growth and body changes
8:10 Eating for muscle gain without adding excessive fat
11:38 Peri or post menopause and RED-S
13:57 How to efficiently incorporate cardio into your routine
20:36 Muscle as a fat-loss accelerator

Related episodes:

• My Stair-Step Fat Loss Process to Get Lean and Ripped

• How to Get More Fitness Results for Less Effort (The Pareto Rule)

• Energy, Workout Nutrition, and Performance-Based Strength for Women Over 40

Episode summary:

Are you hesitant to lift weights because you're worried about getting bulky? It's time to debunk this pervasive myth and unlock the incredible benefits of strength training for women. In this episode, Philip Pape dives deep into the science behind muscle growth, the role of testosterone, and why women can confidently embrace resistance training without the fear of excessive muscle mass.

Understanding the impact of strength training on women's bodies is crucial. Contrary to popular belief, lifting heavy weights won't turn you into a bodybuilder overnight. Women simply don't have the testosterone levels necessary to build massive muscles without extreme effort and often pharmaceutical assistance. Instead, strength training helps women achieve a toned, strong physique that is both aesthetically pleasing and functionally powerful.

One of the key points Philip emphasizes is the importance of progressive overload and a slight calorie surplus in supporting muscle growth. By gradually increasing the weight you lift and ensuring you're consuming enough calories to fuel your workouts, you can build lean muscle without gaining unwanted fat. This approach not only enhances your physical appearance but also boosts your metabolic rate, making it easier to maintain a healthy body composition in the long run.

Nutrition plays a vital role in the muscle-building process. Philip discusses the significance of consuming adequate protein and balancing your macronutrients to support muscle growth while maintaining a calorie deficit for fat loss. He also addresses common concerns about eating enough to support muscle growth without gaining excessive fat, emphasizing that a slight calorie surplus, when done correctly, can lead to lean muscle gain with minimal fat accumulation.

In addition to strength training, the episode explores effective fat loss strategies. Philip highlights the importance of a moderate calorie deficit, proper nutrient timing, and sustainable practices to preserve muscle and energy levels while losing fat. He warns against the pitfalls of extreme dieting methods, which can lead to muscle loss and decreased energy levels, and instead advocates for a balanced approach that includes alternating between calorie deficits and maintenance phases.

Cardio is another crucial component of a well-rounded fitness regimen. However, it's essential to balance cardio and strength training to achieve optimal results. Philip suggests incorporating efficient conditioning methods like supersets and circuit training into your strength workouts to maximize calorie burn and improve cardiovascular health without feeling overwhelmed. He also emphasizes that cardio should complement, not compete with, your strength training efforts.

Throughout the episode, Philip addresses real-world questions and concerns from listeners, such as Valerie F., who shares her struggles with conflicting advice on diet and exercise. By providing practical solutions and evidence-based insights, Philip aims to empower women to embrace strength training with confidence and clarity.

To further support your fitness journey, Philip offers a free "Cardio for a Lifter's Guide," which provides valuable tips on effectively combining cardio and strength training. This guide is designed to help you maximize your fitness potential and achieve your goals without sacrificing your progress or well-being.

In summary, this episode of Wits and Weights is a must-listen for any woman looking to transform her body through smart strength training. By debunking the myth that lifting weights makes women bulky and providing actionable strategies for muscle growth, fat loss, and overall fitness, Philip Pape empowers listeners to unlock their full potential and embrace the benefits of resistance training. Tune in now and take the first step towards a stronger, leaner, and more confident you!

📲 Send me a text message!

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

Imagine wanting to transform your body through strength training, through lifting heavy weights, only to hear conflicting advice at every turn, like lifting makes you bulky or no, it actually makes you smaller. Meanwhile, you're left wondering will I get the lean, toned look I want, or am I doomed to look like a bodybuilder, assuming that's a bad thing? But in today's episode we're cutting through the noise. We're exposing the truth about how lifting weights really affects a woman's body. You'll discover why the fear of getting bulky is misplaced and how heavy resistance training can actually help you achieve that coveted lean, sexy physique, even if there is an aspect of getting bigger but not bulky. Whether you're a lifting novice you're just getting started or you are an advanced, intermediate to advanced trainee, this episode will reshape your understanding of the physical, how muscle metabolism and the female form all come together, and then you can embrace the iron with confidence and with purpose. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're tackling a very hot topic that comes up all the time. It's caused more confusion than almost any other how lifting weights truly impacts a woman's body? Now, yes, I am a man, but I've worked with many women and I get asked this question all the time, particularly when I go on podcasts that are geared toward women audiences, and I think it's really important, because we received yet another question from a listener about this, who I'm going to give a shout out to in just a bit, but before we dive in, I do have something special that I think is going to help you out, because part of the discussion today is around cardio and how cardio interacts with lifting weights, and so I created this guide for private clients called Cardio for Lifters, and I'm giving it to you for free as a podcast listener. In this guide, you'll discover how to effectively combine cardio and strength training a weird trick to burn more calories through cardio, not what you think, not just doing more cardio and a sample weekly training plan that balances the two for maximum results and recovery. So if you want the free copy of this Cardio for Lifters guide, join my email list, go to witsandweightscom, slash email or click the link in the show notes. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash email or click the link in the show notes, and then, when you're on the list, just send me an email and say hey, can I have the Cardio for Lifters guide and I will send it right over. This is not publicly available, it's only for listeners. So you get the inside secret link here if you reach out and I will send it over to you.

Philip Pape: 2:46

All right, so let's get into today's topic, which was inspired by a listener, valerie F. She is a longtime listener Actually, I don't know how long she's been listening, but she's definitely been active in our community and reaching out, which I absolutely love hearing from listeners and she inspired this episode. Valerie, like many of you listening, many of you women listening has been barred with the conflicting information about lifting weights, strength training, body composition, health, all the things, not to mention diets and cardio and all of that, and she wrote the following quote that I think encompasses the confusion out there on this topic. She said quote basically, I need to focus on strength training and eating in a deficit, while also eating enough protein to lose fat, but also do a lot of intense cardio to keep my heart healthy and eat lots of fiber and vegetables and protein, but still be in a deficit, but also not be in an energy depleted state, because that's bad, but don't worry, because my muscles will get tighter but also bigger when I weight train. End quote. And again, I think I love that part of the quote. She actually gave me a pretty detailed email of like this expert says this. This expert says this you have one person saying that cardio won't make you bulky, but you have, like Steph Gaudreau, who was on the show, saying, well, it actually does make you bigger and we should embrace that, but like what does it all mean and what does it look like? Like what do you do Right?

Philip Pape: 4:08

So let's start by tackling the big myth that usually gets asked is does it make you bulky? That lifting weights makes women bulky, and this is a very outdated idea, but it still persists. And here's the truth Women lack the testosterone levels necessary to build massive muscles anyway without extreme effort and often some pharmaceutical assistance. Right, women start during puberty with I'm not going to call it a disadvantage, it's just factually less muscle. And yet women can build the same percentage of muscle throughout their life, but they can't. And yet women can build the same percentage of muscle throughout their life, but they can't.

Philip Pape: 4:49

I mean, the joke is I can't even get big and I try. I lift weights a lot and I've made a lot of strides from my 30s to 40s when I did this right and I'm a guy with decent testosterone levels yes, I've had it checked and even I can't get big. So to even get afraid of being bulky from that context it is kind of ridiculous. And I don't mean that as an insult, I just, if you step back and think about it, you realize, oh yeah, actually that's kind of insane. But let's really get into it here. What actually happens when women lift heavy weights? What happens? They get stronger right. Their muscles then do grow Absolutely, but this growth is nothing like what you see in a professional bodybuilder or even somebody who's fairly quote unquote large and bulky like what you wouldn't normally see in a woman. Instead, it creates that coveted toned look.

Philip Pape: 5:35

Just look at the Olympics. I know the Olympics just happened as I recorded this, not sure. When you're listening to the episode. You look at the Olympics, you look at female athletes and you see this wide spectrum and those athletes who have a strength or muscle kind of focus, the types of sports that require being fitter from the body composition perspective. What do you see? You see strong, healthy, sometimes bigger, but not bigger in a negative way athletes. They're powerful and capable, right. I mean. I think it's beautiful, it's sexy, it's all those things. If we're going to go there, right, and that's just a combination of they built muscle and they lost fat. And we're talking about athletes and let's be honest, if you're listening to this, most of you are probably not going to get to that elite athlete status. Potentially, some of you might be, but even if you're just general population wanting to get a better physique, you don't have to worry about it. So there's another twist on this right and I've even used this terminology before.

Philip Pape: 6:32

You might've heard that lifting then it makes you physically smaller because muscles get tighter right, muscles denser than fat, so it actually is going to make you smaller. That's kind of a misunderstanding and a misinterpretation of how the whole thing works. You know, muscles are obviously muscles themselves aren't changing. They're not getting tighter. You're actually building more muscle and so your cross-sectional area of your muscles become bigger because you have this dense tissue and you have more of it right, and they get more defined as they grow and then you lose fat and so you are going to probably have your shirt size go up, right, and they get more defined as they grow and then you lose fat and so you are going to probably have your shirt size go up right, your arm size go up, but your waist comes down. So, like, the proportions change a bit, but in a good way. Like, muscular arms are beautiful arms, like men and women. If you look at them, it's usually not a problem, even when women have muscly arms. And, yes, muscle takes up less space than fat for the same weight. So as you build muscle and lose fat, you might find that your weight on the scale doesn't change much if you're doing a body recomp and kind of staying the same weight, but your body composition improves dramatically and so your shape is changing and you are going to probably need clothes, not because you're getting huge or bulky, but because your shape is changing in all the right ways. You might need pants that allow for a bigger booty, for example right or shoulders or arms, but like in a good way, not because you're bulky, because you're actually filling them out and you're not just like skinny fat.

Philip Pape: 8:02

I hope none of this is triggering for any of you, because I am talking a lot about physical appearance here, but that is where the question comes from, doesn't it? Let's address another concern the fear of eating too much when trying to build muscle. So that's part of the bulking fear of like actually getting fat. Okay, and it is true again that to build muscle you need to eat enough to support that growth. You can generally build muscle either in a surplus or sometimes at maintenance. If you're a newer lifter, right, it's very rare that you're going to build much muscle in a deficit, although it can happen, but it's just going to be slower and that's not really the priority. When you're in a deficit, it's more to lose fat.

Philip Pape: 8:41

Now, when you are at maintenance or even in a slight surplus, it doesn't mean you're going to automatically gain a certain amount of fat, but you probably, the bigger that surplus is, are going to gain some of that as fat. When you do it correctly, when you do it precisely, a slight calorie surplus. So for numbers sake, I would say gaining around 0.2% to 0.3% of your body weight a week. And again, if you want to be conservative and be on the lower end, that's fine. 0.2% of your body weight a week, it's not that much. If you do the math right. It's at most a couple pounds a month for, like, an average size female.

Philip Pape: 9:18

That, combined with training properly right Progressive overload, progressing over time in the gym, going to the gym three or four days a week that is going to lead to plenty of lean muscle gain with minimal fat accumulation. And by minimal I mean maybe a third to a half of that is fat. And you're like, oh so if I gain 10 pounds, up to five of that is fat. I don't think that's the way you should reframe it. I think you should frame it as so if I gain 10 pounds, a full five of that is muscle. Holy crap, that's five pounds of muscle that I never had. And then I can easily drop whatever fat I gained in a cut, you know, in a fat loss phase. Wow, five pounds of muscle is massive when most women are walking around losing muscle year after year at the age of 30, eventually leading to sarcopenia and also osteopenia, weakness, frailty and ultimately death, and I hate to paint a negative picture. We all die someday, of course, but the chances are much higher when you don't have the muscle. So that's the health argument for muscle.

Philip Pape: 10:18

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits and Weights. I started Wits and Weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s, 40s and beyond who want to build muscle, lose fat and finally look like they lived. I've noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential, whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created Wits and Weights Physique University, a semi-private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized, done-for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to witsandweightscom slash physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's witsandweightscom slash physique. I can't wait to Now.

Philip Pape: 11:30

For those of you in peri or postmenopause, you might have heard warnings about limiting calories in a deficit or a severe deficit causing something called REDS relative energy deficiency in sport. In fact, steph Godreau, when she was on the podcast, we talked quite a bit about that I may have talked with I'm not sure I talked with anyone else around about it, but it's a valid concern, for sure it exists. But for most of you listening, you're not going to be in that level of a calorie deficit and doing it for so long like an elite athlete or bodybuilder to have to worry about that right. If, of course, you're crash dieting and if you're dieting for a long, long time and you're doing it super aggressively, which is not the way we do it here, yes, you are at risk for that right and amenorrhea and all those things.

Philip Pape: 12:33

But for most of you it doesn't mean you can't be in a calorie deficit, right? The key is doing it at the proper rate of loss, a moderate deficit, with the proper nutrient timing for you, right, the proper meal timing for you. Or you're not doing all this crazy fasting, cutting carbs just to cut carbs, like all that stuff. Just have a balanced diet, go at a moderate rate of loss that's not so fast that you lose muscle or lose too much energy, that lets you get in the gym and you're not trying to hit a number on the scale. You're not trying to hit a target. You're trying to do something sustainable that slowly releases fat and helps you do it successfully, which most people can't do. Most people aren't doing that right.

Philip Pape: 13:07

So short, controlled periods of a calorie deficit interspersed with maintenance phases, right. Or, even better yet, some building phases, can help you lose fat while preserving muscle, preserving hormonal health, and you won't be anywhere near that REDS, that low energy availability state. So if you hear all these fitfluencers and 22-year-old nutrition coaches saying like you need to eat more to lose weight, need to fix your metabolism, you're probably just under eating. I mean, there's a tiny bit of truth to the under eating part in some cases, but it's not magic, it's just a function of calories. That's all it is. We just need to identify okay, how much are you under eating? By what's your current maintenance? Do we need to be in maintenance for a while and clean things up and do things right and then get back into a deficit? It's those kinds of things. Let's be reasonable, let's not be a fear monger about this.

Philip Pape: 13:58

Okay, so I've talked about quite a few things related to physique with energy, to deficits, to health. I want to talk about another health aspect here, related to cardio. Valerie's email mentioned cardio and I was like, hmm, should I do another topic, a separate topic about this, but I think I want to cover this all in one kind of spot. For women Again, you're worried about getting bulky, which means you're probably in many cases over-correcting by trying to stay thin and lean quote unquote, I have quotes up here by doing lots of cardio, by doing Pilates, by doing forms of movement you think are associated with lean muscles in some way, and it's a total myth. It really is. The only way you're going to get that lean toned look is to add muscle, to add muscle, and then you cut off a little bit of fat if needed. Okay.

Philip Pape: 14:51

But let's talk about cardio where it fits in here. Because, yeah, if you listen to experts, there's all sorts of recommendations. Some experts recommend the government health standards, which is something like 150 minutes of vigorous cardio per week, which honestly isn't a bad kind of average number for a lot of people to shoot for. That's two and a half hours a week and if you're lifting, say, three or four days a week for at least an hour, that two and a half hours of cardio equates to about half the time that you lift, which is the recommendation I usually get. It's not out of the ordinary, it's not super high, it's not super low, it's kind of in the ballpark.

Philip Pape: 15:34

Now, cardiovascular exercise in general is important, okay, but it doesn't have to be separate from your training, meaning like you don't have to do special medium and high intensity cardio sessions. Your strength training alone, plus walking, for many women, for many people, is plenty, is actually enough. And if you want to incorporate some medium and high intensity cardio because you enjoy it and you want that little extra calorie burn and that little bit of extra heart health to go with it, I'm all for that. In fact, I do like a little bit of concurrent training in there. Once you get past that initial phase of like, hey, I'm just learning to get my protein, I'm just learning to lift weights.

Philip Pape: 16:11

Once you get past that initial phase and things are kind of dialed in, then I would say, okay, now where do we fit in a couple sessions throughout the week, either on your off days from lifting or like many hours after your lifting sessions, and make sure that they're maybe not on leg day but they're on your upper body day, like little tweaks like that. And I did mention the cardio for lifters guide early on. Again, I actually explained those in there I explained the types of cardio, how to incorporate it with your lifting, how to balance it, and then a little trick that I like to use to get a little bit more calorie burn from your cardio. Okay, just join my email list, whitsandweightscom slash email, and send me an email that you want the cardio guide and I will send it to you. All right, but if you are like juggling a family, your work, your training, meal planning and the idea of fitting in separate hours of cardio sessions on top of strength training can seem overwhelming, if not impossible. Right, and this is where the efficiency comes in. I'm all for efficiency here. You can incorporate some conditioning into your strength training.

Philip Pape: 17:16

So, women, ladies, if you do like those bootcamp classes, if you like the Pilates, if you like you know spin, whatever, I'm not against having, like supersets, a little bit of circuit training work, a little bit of just kind of what you would see in CrossFit, like box jumps or stuff like that kind of thrown in, but they're second priority to the lifting or they're incorporated as part of the lifting. So, for example, you might do, you know, your normal heavy squats, then you might do some leg presses, but then you're going to go ahead and do some calf raises and leg curls and you're going to superset them, and because you're supersetting them and taking very little rest, your heart rate's going up right into zone two, maybe zone three. Right there you're spending a good minutes 10 minutes in a medium, if not high intensity cardio state while lifting weights. Boom, you just got two for one. You can get plenty of cardiovascular benefits just from lifting weights, without having to double your gym time or do things that you don't enjoy doing. Okay, so the goal here isn't to do everything at maximum intensity all the time. Right, we've talked about 80-20 in the past. Go look up my episode called the Pareto Principle is in the title where you just have to do enough to get the minimum effective dose, and then that is the maximum use of your time, where you can make progress without burning out, and then you can decide if you want to do more than that. Can make progress without burning out, and then you can decide if you want to do more than that. And this might mean this probably does mean focusing primarily on strength training, because now you know you're not going to get bulky, but that is the way to get the lean you know bigger in a good way, lean and sexy physique. That you're going for Strategic cardio compliments right. Doesn't compete with your lifting, and that's the approach I would take when it comes to cardio. You don't have to be doing a bunch of treadmill work, a bunch of stair climbing work, right. Just walk, lift and then incorporate cardio where it makes sense and make sure you enjoy it.

Philip Pape: 19:16

I think there's one more thing that I kind of forgot to mention earlier about the calorie deficit for fat loss, because I was thinking of cardio and how many of you use cardio to try to increase your calories and help with fat loss, and that is not what cardio is for. Cardio is for heart health, and that's pretty much it. It burns a little bit more calories, but you don't want to overdo it, and so when we moderate the cardio and we focus on lifting and then use diet as the dial right, periodizing your diet, having proper fat loss phases, cycling your calories as needed, this can allow you to get the result efficiently in a fairly short period of time. So let's say, 10 pounds over 12 or 16 weeks, and then you get back to maintenance for a while and then you build a bunch of muscle and then you do another fat loss phase. I've talked about this in the past with my stair-step fat loss approach. Approaches like that that I do with clients all the time.

Philip Pape: 20:13

Right, we roll up the sleeves and we say what's the most creative way to structure your diet? Your lifting, your cardio, so it's fun, so it's sustainable, so you can go out and have fun on the weekends and you don't really feel like you're dieting like you used to. And then what do you get for it? You get a physique that you you know, your dream physique, your ideal physique that you're going for here Not bulky, not bulky, but lean, toned, sexy. All of those things let's talk about.

Philip Pape: 20:39

This is the last thing I'm going to talk about here, a concept that gets overlooked in all of this the very act of building muscle can make fat loss easier. It makes fat loss easier in the long run. Muscle tissue is the most metabolically active tissue. That means it burns more calories at rest than fat does. Fat does have some burning, but not nearly as much as muscle, and so by focusing on building muscle through heavy lifting, you are upgrading your body's engine, your metabolic engine. You're making it more efficient to burning calories. And here's the thing that people miss. You can carry more scale weight so you can be bigger but leaner. And because you're bigger, you're burning even more calories and you get to eat more food. Who doesn't want that? So this is why focusing on strength training rather than cutting calories endless cardio, high rep, high cardio type workouts can often be the game changer for women looking to transform their bodies, and why you should not be afraid one iota about lifting weights One iota. You are improving everything about your life, your health, your function, your capability, your metabolism. There is zero, absolutely zero downside to building muscle, one of the most powerful things you can do for your body.

Philip Pape: 21:59

So, as we wrap up, I want to recap some key points here. Number one lifting weights will not make women bulky. It will not make you bulky, that's it. It'll make you leaner, stronger and, yes, sexier. Maybe that last one's a subjective thing, but I'm a guy, so I can say that. Number two muscle growth and fat loss work together to create the toned look. You've got to spend some time building muscle, but then occasionally you focus on fat loss. Number three balancing that nutrition with your training is key here. Right, but it doesn't have to be complicated. In fact, it should work with you and your lifestyle preferences. Number four cardio is important, but it can be efficiently incorporated and prioritized below your strength training. And then number five building muscle is the best thing you could do. It is a powerful strategy for long-term fat loss, for metabolic health, for everything.

Philip Pape: 22:50

So I hope the message was clear. The goal isn't to conform here to some idea of a perfect body, right, but it is to dispel the myth that women are going to get bulky and instead, when you lift weights, when you focus on muscle, you will become the strongest, healthiest version of yourself. As long as you're fueling it properly, you progress and you track the right things right. You do the right things. You do what we talk about on this podcast. You reach out for help when needed, because that's sometimes the best way to accelerate your results, and you watch as you transform and it won't take that long. But you're going to transform not only physically, but with your confidence and your capability and your ability to show up for yourself and for others. All right If you enjoyed today's episode, if you want to learn more about really everything, but specifically what I mentioned today, if you want to balance cardio and training, because that's sometimes where the big question mark is.

Philip Pape: 23:48

Don't forget to grab your free copy of my Cardio for a Lifter's Guide. Go to witsowheightscom, slash email or click the link in the show notes to join my email list. Then, when you're on there, reply and say hey, philip, I would love the Cardio for a Lifter's Guide. By the way, what else do you have? And I to send you all my free stuff? Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights, and remember your body is capable of amazing things when you give it the right muscle building stimulus. This is Philip Pape, and you've been listening to the Wits and Weights Podcast. Talk to you next time.

Hollywood-Level Fitness for Everyday Fat Loss with Celebrity Trainer Obi Obadike | Ep 202

Have you ever wondered how celebrities achieve jaw-dropping physical transformations for blockbuster roles? What if you could unlock their secrets and apply them to your own fitness journey? 

Imagine sculpting the body of your dreams with practical, totally doable strategies.

In today's episode, Philip (@witsandweights) chats with Obi Obadike, the powerhouse trainer behind A-listers like Steve Harvey and Morris Chestnut. He is a fitness industry icon, TV host, and best-selling author. He is one of the most influential fitness experts, and he's been featured on major talk shows like The Today Show.  

Obi shares his approach to rapid yet sustainable fat loss, emphasizing balanced nutrition and personalized training plans. He discusses the importance of health screenings, the impact of genetics, and practical methods everyday people can use to achieve their fitness goals. 

Whether you're aiming for quick, dramatic results or sustainable, long-term health, this episode is for you. 

📱Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15-minute call.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:40 Creating training plans under tight deadlines
2:52 The trade-offs of rapid transformations
5:12 Real-life celebrity transformations
8:29 Monitoring body composition
12:01 Maintaining muscle mass during fat loss
14:38 Sustainable fat loss for everyday people
17:52 Balanced nutrition and macronutrient ratios
20:12 The perfect diet for an individual
24:02 Importance of recovery and listening to your body
31:00 The role of sleep and recovery in fitness
32:17 Lifting heavy and its impact on joints
38:23 Maintaining long-term fitness results
41:40 The impact of genetics on maintenance
45:24 How to find Obi
46:30 Outro

Episode resources:

• Obi's websites: obiobadike.com and ethicalinc.com

• Instagram: @obiobadike/

• Facebook: @obi.obadike

• Twitter: @obi_obadike

Episode summary:

Have you ever watched a blockbuster movie and wondered how actors achieve their jaw-dropping physiques in such a short amount of time? In the latest episode of our podcast, we sat down with fitness expert Obi Obedike to uncover the grueling regimens that stars like Morris Chestnut endure for their roles. But more importantly, Obi offers a balanced, sustainable approach for everyday people who want to get fit without the extremes.

Obi begins by sharing the behind-the-scenes of Hollywood transformations, emphasizing that the rapid fitness changes we see on screen are often achieved through intense, unsustainable methods. These extreme regimens involve rigorous two-a-day cardio sessions, heavy weightlifting, and severely restricted diets. While these tactics can yield impressive short-term results, they are not practical for long-term health. Obi stresses the importance of setting realistic goals and timelines to ensure sustainable success, noting that the pressure to look a certain way often leads to unhealthy practices.

One of the key takeaways from this episode is Obi’s focus on balanced macronutrient ratios. Many people fall into the trap of extreme diets, such as cutting carbs to keto levels, which can leave them feeling drained and defeated. Obi explains that a well-rounded diet, rich in proteins, complex carbs, and healthy fats, is essential for maintaining energy levels and overall well-being. He debunks the myth that specific macronutrient manipulation is the key to weight loss, highlighting that a caloric deficit is what truly matters. This balanced approach not only helps in losing body fat but also ensures that individuals can sustain their diet in the long run.

Obi also delves into the importance of tailored advice for different age groups. As we age, our bodies require different nutritional and exercise needs. He emphasizes that maintaining lean muscle mass becomes crucial, which can be achieved through adequate protein intake and resistance training. The discussion extends to the significance of rest and recovery, particularly for older individuals. Overtraining can lead to injuries and hinder progress, making it vital to listen to one’s body and allow ample recovery time.

Another critical aspect covered in this episode is the psychological and physical benefits of taking breaks from intense workouts. Obi advocates for at least two rest days per week to enhance both mental and physical well-being. He points out that recovery is as important as the workouts themselves, as it allows the muscles to rebuild and strengthen. This holistic approach to fitness underscores the necessity of balancing workout intensity with adequate rest to prevent overtraining and ensure long-term health.

The episode also touches on the challenges of maintaining fitness gains in the long run. Obi reveals that understanding your body’s set point and regularly monitoring body composition are crucial for sustaining your desired physique. He discusses the role of genetics in determining body composition, noting that individual predispositions can make maintaining lower body fat percentages easier for some and more challenging for others. Having realistic expectations based on your genetic makeup is key to long-term success.

Overall, this episode with Obi Obedike is a treasure trove of practical knowledge and motivational insights. Whether you are aiming for rapid but controlled results or seeking sustainable long-term health, Obi’s expert advice can transform your approach to fitness and wellness. Tune in to learn how to achieve balanced health without the extremes and create a fitness plan that is both effective and maintainable. Don’t miss out on this invaluable episode that could change the way you view your fitness journey.

📲 Send me a text message!

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:01

If you're like most of us, you've probably wondered how celebrities achieve those incredible physical transformations for a movie or TV show. You see them looking fit or sometimes totally ripped, like Chris Hemsworth prepping his Thor for the next Marvel movie, and think, what is their secret? But it's not just for the stars. In today's episode, we are chatting with one of the fittest people on the planet and the trainer behind the scenes to big celebrities like Steve Harvey and Morris Chestnut, you are going to learn practical, totally doable strategies that can help anyone celebrity or not achieve the body of their dreams, whether you're aiming for quick but controlled results or sustainable long term health, this episode will tell you exactly what it takes to get there. Welcome to wits and weights, the show that helps you engineer your best physique for maximum results with minimum wasted effort. I'm your host, Philip, and today I invited on Obi obedike, a fitness industry icon, a telly award winning TV host and a best selling author. He's written over 100 articles for top fitness magazines and websites, and his book, The cut, co authored with actor Morris Chestnut, has helped countless people transform their bodies and their lives. Obi has been featured on major national talk shows like The Today Show, and his expertise has earned him recognition as one of the most influential fitness experts today, you'll learn about OBS approach to achieving rapid and sustainable fat loss, the strategies he uses with both celebrities and everyday clients, and how you can apply these methods to your own fitness journey, plus stick around to find out, is there a perfect diet for you? Obi, welcome to the show, my man. Hey, Philip,

Obi Obadike  01:38

thank you so much for having me on the show. I really appreciate it.

Philip Pape  01:41

So, man, I just want to jump right in and have you imagine that moment when a celebrity client, right, who's desperate to make a change, and they have this very tight deadline before a major film or TV shoot, they walk into your gym and they look in the eye and they say, this role could change my life, but I'm nowhere ready for it, right? How do you create a training and nutrition plan under such pressure and know without a doubt that it will succeed?

Obi Obadike  02:05

Yeah, you know, that's a good question. You know, I think with unfortunately, you know, sometimes when you have to get somebody, a celebrity, ready for a big project, most of the time, they never really give you enough time. And now and you feel the extra stress and anxiety, especially if they say, Hey, we need to look like this and like, you know, eight weeks or nine weeks, you're like, that's not enough time, you know? So I've never, ever felt that I've been given enough time to help somebody get ready for a big project. And so what happens is that you feel the extra stress, you feel the extra anxiety, and they always end up having to over train, you know, over training the client, because you're, you know, doing so much, you know, yeah,

Philip Pape  02:52

that's a good point, right? Because if you have a deadline, we always talk about when you're setting up your fat loss phase, for example, you know, don't necessarily have a date in mind, and try to go aggressively toward a date, come up with a reasonable approach that'll get you there, and then get the results that come but some people have a wedding, they have a photo shoot, your clients have a date that they're going after. And it sounds like it leads to some level of trade off or extreme that maybe is not, quote, unquote healthy in the short term, but it gets you to the result. I mean, would you agree with that? And if so, you know, the everyday person listening, we're going to get into like, the pros and cons of that. But what are your thoughts on that approach for the everyday person?

Obi Obadike  03:27

Yeah, you know, for the everyday person, I'm not an advocate of doing anything extreme, so it's really contradictory to my beliefs. When I'm trying to transform someone, when I have an everyday, average person that wants to get in shape, wants to lose weight. It's very important for me to get as much information from them as possible. I call it a health Screening Questionnaire. Get their height, their weight, their fitness goals, their dietary preferences, foods they like to eat, foods they don't like to eat, past or present, injuries, medical concerns I need to be aware of. So I want to get all of that detailed information from them, which allows me to create a tailored program for them, and then I really try to give it an honest time frame on how long it would take for them to lose the weight. Because a lot of times when you have to help someone get in shape within a shorter amount of time, the program is extreme, particularly if the time frame is limited. And so when you have an extreme program, exercise or diet. Typically, people can't maintain that, because the extremity is just too much, particularly when you're having someone work twice a day, or somebody that has to is on some, you know, extremely low caloric diet. So those type of training and diet program is too much. So again, I'm not an advocate of that, and the everyday, average person is really what to be honest with you, I enjoy training working with because I don't feel the stress and anxiety to have to get someone to look a certain way within such an extreme short amount of time. Yeah.

Philip Pape  05:00

Yeah, I feel you on that. And love the fact that you gather all that information, right? Because me, I get questions all the time, What is your answer for x? And it's like, it depends answer my questions first, because I need to understand you as an individual, and I want the listener to understand that, you know, when you see somebody up on a screen or whatever, it's like a bodybuilding competition. You know, there's a above and beyond. It's almost like a performance related goal that at all costs in some cases, right? So you mentioned, you know, two a days and very low calories and things like that. So maybe tell us about a specific like transformation you went through with a celebrity, so we can understand what some of those trade offs are, and then we can kind of pivot into Sure, the everyday client. Yeah. Well, when I,

Obi Obadike  05:41

when I got Morris Chestnut in shape for the best man holiday, this might have been about 11 years ago. I was given a time frame of, like, literally, like, I think, like 1011, weeks, if I'm not mistaken, and people don't believe this, but he came to me overweight, so he had to really drop about 30 to 33 pounds to get in shape for the movie. So, because we were so limited in time frame, I had to do two a day workouts with him. Where we were, you know, he was doing two a day cardio days, and then he was obviously lifting weights in the morning time. And then I probably had him starting off at his daily calories was probably I had he was 220 I got him down to 187 and I think the daily calories that I had him at the start was maybe about 1900 and then every couple of weeks we would drop it down to 100 and I think he probably at the lowest might have been at 1600 calories, because I was really trying to strip all that body fat from his body, and I wanted to make sure he was in an extreme deficit. And so that is not how I would never have anyone do two a day workouts, you know, that's like, like, if you're training for the Olympics or something, you know, but when you're limited in the amount of the limited time frame, that's, unfortunately, you have to do that. So he was on a low caloric diet, and then he was over training, you know, he was burning a lot of calories daily. I think we might have been doing this about like, five days a week. So they had given me, like, you know, four months or five months. Then the program might have been like, you know, maybe four days a week. And then would be, you know, four days a week of weights and four days a week of cardio. And maybe the daily calories would have been slightly higher, and it wouldn't be so low. Whereas, if someone where I've had other clients, where maybe some guy came to me and he weighed 240 pounds, and he wanted to lose 30 or 40 pounds out on average, start them off at maybe 20, 102,000 calories, maybe drop them down to 18, 1700 have him working out four to five days a week. Probably cardi wouldn't be more than maybe 3040, minutes at a time. So it'd really be a slow, incremental process, the whole one to two pounds per week, you know, Healthy Weight Loss type of thing, as opposed to someone that has to get in shape for a big movie. And he's got a limited amount of time frame, and he's dropping like, you know, four pounds or five pounds a week, which is not really healthy. It's doubled what is suggested by the CDC and what is really suggested by a lot of health and wellness professionals, which is that one to two pounds per week, yeah,

Philip Pape  08:16

for sure. You know, sometimes we talk in percentages to, like, 1% a week, above which you might lose muscle mass. And we're hearing a lot of, you know, the rapid muscle loss with like the ozempic and those kinds of drugs and everything as well, because of the rapid weight loss. So what you're saying is, you know, if you got 10 weeks, three or four or five pounds a week, you're talking 1500 2000 calorie deficit, ish, something like that, which you're kind of making the calories not drop as low as they could drop by adding some cardio and movement on top of that. How do you monitor in that situation the body composition to get where you want? Because I imagine, for someone going into a role like that, it could literally just be get as shredded as possible, regardless of muscle loss, and that's the trade off. Or it could be, no we need to maintain some of that because of their starting composition. Yeah,

Obi Obadike  09:02

I'd had Morris weigh himself every week when I was working with him, and then I would have him we would do like body fat composition test, maybe once every three weeks, once every month, you know. And the weight loss, obviously, as we as we know, first two weeks of any weight loss program, more than half of it is always going to be water loss anyway, not body fat loss and body fat. I always, I'm not really an advocate of checking body fat every week. It takes a while to really see the incremental drop. So I always like to do, if I'm going to do a body composition test, a body fat test, and check the body fat. I think once a month is enough time to see the incremental drop. So that's kind of what we were doing. And so what was fascinating, and then I also actually had him lift heavy weights because he was and that I increased his protein because he was in an extreme deficit. Wasn't getting as many calories. What was going to help with, with trying to minimize the muscle loss, was the increase in his protein intake and then lifting heavier, because we don't want him looking stringy. You know what I mean? We don't want to want him looking flat. He's supposed to be a professional football player in the movie, and he had the reason why it was so important to get him to single digit body fat was that so funny. He's got all these he's got a huge female following, you know, that wants to see that, that shirtless scene, that little V around the you know, that was the money shot. You know what? I mean, it's so funny. You train your butt off intensely for eight, 910, 1112, weeks for one shirtless scene, you know, in a movie which is so funny, you know, but that was it. So what was really cool about it was that, at the time, think he was like 43 or 44 at the time, so that was the best shape he'd ever been in his entire life. And so because at, you know, before social media exploded, it was all about fitness magazines. You know, if you were a fitness professional and you weren't in a magazine, before social media exploded, you didn't exist. So at that time, magazines were still relevant. And so I had those relationships with all the fitness magazines. So I was able to get him on a fitness magazine cover at the time that the movie came out, to capture this new, transformed physique. So that was really, really cool that I was able to use my relationships. And surprisingly, even though he's been on magazine covers, he had never really been on a fitness magazine cover, believe it or not. So that was kind of really cool to be able to capture this, you know, transform physique. And so when he was promoting the movie, they were showing that magazine cover, you know, it was really, really cool. So, yeah,

Philip Pape  11:49

yeah, no. I mean, you make some good points there, right? Like, some of this is a snapshot in time, right? When people are scrolling through Instagram and seeing all these great looking physiques, it's like, that's a snapshot, right? That's the that's probably at their best, at their leanest. I've heard you mention, you know, even just to have six pack revealed, you've got to be sub, like 14% body fat, or in that range,

Obi Obadike  12:08

if you're a guy, yeah, he was probably at the time, you know, just going off of my head. Don't quote me on it, but he was 220 he might have been probably in the, you know, body fat was probably in the 20s, you know, maybe 23 24% there. You know, he wasn't, he gets it. He was in the, definitely in the worst shape. So we took him down from that 20s, down to probably about, maybe it was probably at 8% seven to 8% something around there was,

Philip Pape  12:38

he already a lifter before then, like he had, he already built some muscle. Yeah,

Obi Obadike  12:41

he he was a fitness guy. He definitely wasn't like someone that was like, he definitely worked out. How do I put this? I wouldn't say like super, super fitness guy, but definitely was fitness minded, you know, more like, he liked doing athletic things, playing basketball, you know, as opposed to someone who was in the gym lifting weights every day. So he was definitely a physically active person. And for the most part, most movies that he'd ever been in where he did take his shirt off, it was never a problem. But I think at this time, you know, he's in his 40s at the time, and he was in New York, where it was really, really cold prior to the him the movie getting green lit, and he kind of was just staying in his apartment. Wasn't working out for months, and, you know, had no desire and motivation. And then all of a sudden he gets a call that this movie's got green lit. And the director's like, hey, we need you to look like this. And he's like, Oh snap, okay, I'm nowhere near that right now. How much time we got, you know? And so that's when he contacted me, and that started the working relationship and friendship as well. Too.

Philip Pape  13:44

Cool, man. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, a lot of people can relate to just that time in their life. They're kind of letting things go for whatever reason, and now they need the kick in the butt to get back to it. What better way than a big role?

Obi Obadike  13:55

Yeah, it happens with everyone. Happens with everyone. You know. We're all human beings, you know, and sometimes, whether it's stress, whether it's grief, whether it's depression, you know, so many different variables that can affect your motivation to want to exercise or do anything. You know, we all go through that, but some people are able to really always use exercise as a form of as an outlet, you know, as therapeutic. So, yeah,

Philip Pape  14:26

yeah. All right, now, so talking about the everyday person, I do want to quickly segue to, like, your rapid fat loss or rapid weight loss for that population where it's sustainable and safe, and that's I kind of want the listener to understand that, because, yes, there's the reasonable, longer term approach that we probably should be taking, but then there's okay. Maybe I have been lifting. Maybe my nutrition is dialed in. I know how to hit the protein that OB is asking me to hit. Is there, you know, is there some sort of protocol or approach that you would take with a client like, Sure, well, I

Obi Obadike  14:57

really believe in balance. I'm really. Of an imbalance. So I'm not a believer in extreme macronutrients, where your carbs are extremely low. Or I really believe a great starting template, macronutrient ratio wise is 4040, 20, which is 40% protein, 40% carbs, 20% fats. And then start to make your maneuvers from that starting point. So I feel like if you eat in a balanced way, I feel like you're gonna optimize your energy levels when you're trying to drop body fat and trying to drop weight, I feel like I don't feel like the processes should be where you're lowering your macro nutrient ratio because you believe you're going to drop more body fat, like, let's just say, for example, you're dropping your carbs down to 5% carbs. You know, maybe a Keto aspect. Not everyone can do that. You know, now your energy levels are so low and the process is very difficult for you, because you're probably enough affecting your mental ability to stay alert, you don't have the energy levels to be able to function, especially if you work a job that requires you to work long hours and stuff like that. So, you know, all the research shows that, yes, if you're on a low carb diet, will you drop body fat? Will you drop weight? Yeah, you drop weight the first you know week or two weeks, but it's water because of the glycogen once you drop your carbohydrate levels and stuff like that. But all the research has shown that you're not going to drop any more body fat if you're at carbs. Are five to 10% of your diets coming from carbs, as opposed to your carbs being higher. You drop body fat because you're in a deficit. Okay, you know. So when you know, I always say that when you the whole 30 diet, the keto diet, the Mediterranean diet, all of these different diets, why are people losing weight? What's so unique? What's so different, if they're losing weight because they're in a deficit, full stop, that's it. So once you understand how it works, then you're like, Okay, well, then I don't need to go that razor low on my carbs or my fats, or I could still have it where I'm getting enough, where I feel like my energy levels are optimal, and I can still work out with high energy. I could still play with my kids, be with my spouse. I could still work long hours, and my energy levels are going to be optimal because my macronutrients are balanced. So that's my approach in being able to get the optimal result. I don't believe that we have to go really razor on the macro nuture ratios and deplete you to get you to the goal. And you're absolutely miserable every week. I don't think it should be an unpleasant experience, you know. And then also, you have to also look at it from a long term perspective, you know, like, Okay, you're getting the person to that final goal, right, and, you know, but you're trying to create a program that they can continue after they stop working with you. So, okay, I got you to the goal in a miserable way, in a way that every week you have no energy whatsoever. And now this person wants to maintain this body, he's like, Oh, my God, I have to stay at this level. I have to stay at this, you know, 30 grams of carbs per day. I don't know if I could do that. I got there. Love my body, but that was tough. That was miserable. You see what I'm saying?

Philip Pape  18:30

Oh, I see what you're saying. Man, we are 100% aligned. I'm glad you're on the show telling people carbs are important and balance is important, because you're totally right. Man, the most hate I got on a podcast episode was called, more carbs, more muscle. And it's like the Keto and the low carb zealots come out like, you know, again, we talked before we even started recording, like people eat cherry picking science or trying to, you know, the thing that they're trying to sell saying that this is optimal, just because they're trying to make money off of it. And, like you said, recovery, energy, balance, sustainability, all of the boxes are checked when you're just in a reasonably balanced diet, most people the protein's too low or the carbs are too low. And this

Obi Obadike  19:05

is my thing. As long as you understand what you're doing if you're on a keto diet and it's helping you lose body fat and weight, God bless you. And if you're okay with that, that's cool. But what I'm trying to say, and what you're trying to say, is that, hey, this is what you're not losing body fat because you're on a Keto you're losing it because you're in a deficit. The science and the data shows that your macronutrient when someone is dropping body fat, it's not because of the Mac the the macronutrient ratio being dropped, or it has everything to do with your macronutrient ratio. It's because you're in a deficit. It has nothing to do with, you know, dropping your a certain nutrient level down to a minimal level, and that's why you're dropping body fat, and that's the science says that. So I think it's just understanding what you're doing, and then you could make the decision on which path works for you. And that's. What I believe in is just providing the information and, you know, pick a program what works for you. But I'm going to be honest and say, Hey, this may not be sustainable for you, you know, and then you have to make that decision, what you want to do.

Philip Pape  20:12

Yes, that's a good segue into the question like, What is the perfect diet? Because you've already alluded to the fact that these named diets are not necessarily the way to go, that it's got to work for you. It's got to be customized. You know, what are those big factors besides macro balance, which is super important, and it can shift right? It can shift somebody might do better on higher protein or lower carbs or whatever. What are kind of the boxes you would check for the perfect diet for an individual?

Obi Obadike  20:36

Well, I think the perfect diet is, as I was saying, it's the perfect diet is a diet that's balanced, that you're getting your proteins, your carbs, your healthy fats, complex carbs, your fruits and vegetables with every meal, your protein with every meal. You know your complex carbs with every meal. So I believe in the whole fruit rainbow effect, where you make sure you have your greens and your fruits and your vegetables with every single meal. You have your protein with each meal, especially if you're an advocate of wanting to maintain your lean muscle mass as you as you know, as you get older, every decade after the age of 30, you can drop anywhere from two to 4% of lean muscle mass. The only way to combat that, that muscle mass decline is lifestyle change. So protein, as you know, and resistance training, they work hand in hand, so making sure your protein is you're consuming that with every meal. I do believe in at least a gram of protein per pound, having your complex carbs and your breakfast, you know, lunch and your dinner, having your fruits and vegetables with each meal. So I just really believe in the balance approach. Obviously, if you're an athlete, and your activity level requires an extreme amount of physical activity level, and your carbohydrate intake is going to be probably double or triple the average person, because you're feeding off of that fuel to be able to sustain the activity level. So a lot of times your you know, your macro neutral ratio is really depending, is physical activity dependent. So this is not when I'm saying balanced in your ratio. I'm talking about the everyday, average person walking on the street. I'm not talking about a professional athlete. That's a completely different ball game, you know, in terms of what your ratio is, because if you're talking about an athlete, that carbohydrates gonna go really, really, really high, you know,

Philip Pape  22:26

yeah, man, it's funny. I had a guy in the show. You'd love him. His name is Ben Lewis. Went through a massive transformation, you know, 280 he, like, lost 100 pounds. He got 60 miles a week of running. He qualified for the Boston Marathon. But he also lifts three days a week and has retained his muscle. It's amazing, but like, 4700 calories, you know what I mean. So a lot of that is going to be carbs. Wow.

Obi Obadike  22:48

Exactly. How many miles a week does he run? 6060, miles? Oh, my God, jeez, I wonder. How old is he? He's 55 I'd love to know how his joints are, man, how his knees in his hips? No, that's

Philip Pape  23:02

what I'm saying. I think you'd love him. We can touch base later. I'll because his episode is out before this one. Yeah, okay, so I mean, everything you're saying is, I'm sure the listener is like, okay, cool. I got it like the gram per pound of protein and having balance and having fiber and complex carbs and all that. What about the 8020 approach? A lot of us talk about, where, from a sustainability perspective, you got to have some indulgences in there? Yeah, sure. I'm

Obi Obadike  23:24

a big advocate of that. For sure, 8020 and sometimes, some people need to 7030 like me sometimes. So I feel like, if you can, we all need it from a psychological perspective as well too, to ask someone to eat a certain way so strict seven days a week, I just don't think that's realistic. So you can still accomplish your goals with the 8020 rule, 9010 rule, and even push it to 7030 if you're exercising enough physical activity level that would give you that extra buffer to bring you from 8020 to 7030 so I am a huge advocate of that. I think that, as they say, indulging within moderation. And there's a word that people don't use in fitness called extreme moderation. And so moderation in how you eat and how you exercise, a lot of people don't understand when you exercise. There's a two it's a two prong effect. The first prong is you're working out and you're tearing down your muscle, so that's important, right? And then you're resting and recovering. And while you're recovering, it's rebuilding, so the rest is just as important as you're tearing it down. And people don't understand anything. It's tear, tear, tear. When is it recovering? When is it rebuilding after you've torn it down. It's a two step process. You know, I know people that have over trained, over train, over train, over train, like I'm always sore, I'm always sore, and I'm not improving my strengths. And they take a couple weeks off from the gym, and all of a sudden their strength levels jumped up. You know what I mean? Their lips are up well over training. Body, as in, you're not giving your body enough time to recover. Took me years to figure that out. When you're young, you think you can you're supposed to live in the gym seven days a week. And you get older, you realize, man, no, the rest is just as important as is working out.

Philip Pape  25:16

Yeah, I'm with you. Man, that like stimulus to fatigue and that fatigue builds up, and the older we are. I hear you. I didn't really get into this properly until my late 30s, so it started to affect me, you know, not being as young of a guy anymore, and most of the people we talked to on the show in their 40s and 50s. So that's actually a good transition to you know, how important is that recovery and how much more important does it get as we age? You mentioned joints, right with the runner I was talking about joint health, connective tissue, all that like, what are the specific challenges individuals in that age group should really be thinking about, how do they recover and prioritize that?

Obi Obadike  25:50

Sure. Well, I think that when you're talking about someone in their, you know, 40s, and they're in their 50s and stuff like that, I feel like the older you get, the more your rest and recovery is important your body. The thing when you get older is that the difference between someone who's in their 40s or their 50s or older than that, between someone who's younger is the recovery aspect, where you don't recover as fast. That's the problem when you get older. It's not the fact that you can't lift as heavy as you did when you were younger, but the recovery aspect is the issue when you get older. That's why, when you see an older athlete, the reason why they may not have the best performance is back to back performance, and they have back to back games the recovery. They don't recover as fast as someone who's younger. So you have to understand, as the older you get, you have to give yourself maybe even more recovery time. You know the idea of you working out seven days a week, or was, I've never been an advocate of that, but six days a week, you know, you'll probably find out you'll be able to have better performances in the gym, or even better body composition maintenance if you're training less, as opposed to more, particularly if your whole if your objective is Just to maintain your shape. You don't have any like you're not a marathon runner, or you're not competing in something or whatever. Maybe you just want to just stay in shape for your age, you know, and maintain your muscle mass. You don't have to be in there six days a week.

27:15

Hi, my name is Alan, and I just want to give a shout out to Philippa of wits and weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly and with dedication to provide coaching support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research, and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, Philip papers the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition, and it continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, Phillip,

Philip Pape  28:07

so what are your thoughts then on, because you mentioned the frequency, and I have a lot of discussions with this, about this, with trainers and lifters. What if a three day a week program that has a certain amount of volume got split into six days, the same amount of total volume. In other words, you're spreading out the fatigue. Can that? Have you seen that actually be a beneficial input, you know, change for recovery, you know, I'm saying so this is more days, but the same amount of volume just spread over six days instead of three. Okay,

Obi Obadike  28:35

yeah, no. I mean, I don't have an issue with that whatsoever, you know, because if you're spreading it out over six days, right? But the every day is probably a lower workout output. It's really not, maybe it's 30 minutes a day or whatever. It's not that much, you know. So you're not, you're not taxing the body at the highest level every day. So your body is given enough time to recover, because you're not taxing it to the point where you might need a day or two days to recover. So I don't have an issue with that whatsoever. I feel like when everybody's different, I feel like the mental, psychological approach of like just being able to have a couple of days from going to the gym and exercise. Sometimes it's really good just to have that psychological break, as opposed to, you know, I know people that just love the gym and they can't stay away from it, but sometimes just having that mental, psychological break from being in the gym, you know, at least two days, or, you know, at least two days. I think can actually help you. I know, for me personally, I used to train like this back in the day, six days a week, and you know, but I feel like me. Personally, I feel like I enjoy it more when I'm away from the gym at least a couple days a week, and then when I go back in there, I enjoy it even more. Uh, you know, as opposed to being in there six days a week, there's not only the physical approach to the physical recovery aspect, there's also also the psychological aspect as well too. I think at times, yeah,

Philip Pape  30:14

I asked because, I mean, personally, I've experimented with both, and we talk about it on the show too. Because, like you said, the archetype of the person who always has to go to the gym every day. Do we scratch that itch by going to the gym every day? Or do we actually assess that maybe we're doing too much by going to the gym every day and using those off days? And also, I found one benefit of it is I'm a morning gym goer. Those extra recovery days just means I can get that extra hour of sleep. I mean, that can be huge, you know, for people just to sleep, you know? Yeah. And

Obi Obadike  30:40

the thing about it is just, the most important thing is just to listen to your body. You know, because the human body is amazing, it'll tell you when you've done too much. It'll tell you when you need a break, if you're so sore. And I think it's so important to listen to it, and a lot of people don't, you know, so when you're able to listen to your body, it'll tell you, yeah, I probably made me to take a day off today. You know, I'm tired.

Philip Pape  31:00

I know, man, yeah, recovering sleep are not sexy topics. You know, as much as we hammer home how important they are, you know what? I mean, people always want to talk about the on switch rather than the off switch. Yeah,

Obi Obadike  31:11

I personally think if people can incorporate recovery and sleep and really incorporate that as part of fitness, okay, it's like, okay, exercise is part of fitness, but no one ever really talks about sleep and recovery is part of fitness. It is. It's really connected. If you truly want to optimize your goals, optimize your gains, it is part of that. And please stop watching some of these. You know, juiced uprooted bodybuilders tell you, you got to be in there seven days a week, you know, three hours a day. Well, they're taking drugs, man, you know, yeah, of course. You know, if I'm taking all that stuff, I probably could work out like that too.

Philip Pape  31:52

I didn't know if you were going to get into the PDS too, because I know people have questions about that, but, uh, it's funny you ask. You say that, because I know if somebody asks, Hey, I missed some reps. You know what's going on? Should I lower the weight? One of the first questions I asked is, did you get enough sleep? Like, did you get enough rest? Are you taking long enough rest period? It's like, the absence of the stuff is usually supporting the stuff, and so, right? You gotta it's part of your fitness. Yeah, it's good one. What about lifting heavy? Because you mentioned lifting heavy, and that's kind of a I use that term all the time, and people are like, What do you mean for older folks especially? I mean, I am a big advocate of lifting heavy No matter your age. I don't care if you're 90, like, I think it's great. It's great for your skeletal muscular system. But what do we mean by that? And how does that come into play with connective tissue and joints and things like that,

Obi Obadike  32:36

right? Well, I think as you all you get when you get older, I feel like, if you're lifting really heavy, I feel like, over time, it's not really good for your joints, especially when you're in your 50s. I still think you can push the muscle without going super heavy, like a power lifter. I'm not really an advocate of doing a set less than 10 reps, you know? I just don't really see the value of that, unless you're trying to be a power lifter. And the older you get, once you start lifting really heavy, you can fill in your joints. You're going to fill in your knees, you're going to fill in your elbows, you're going to fill in your hips. So I know that there's a high end of lifting heavy being strong, but you know, if your goal is to maintain muscle or even build it. Whether it's building or maintaining it, the muscle doesn't know that you're lifting 150 pounds. All it knows is the tension you've applied to it. It doesn't say, wait a minute, I'm lifting 120 pounds now. Now it's time for me to build. Now it's time for me to grow. All it knows is the tension. So when you understand how the muscle adapts to the stress that you put on it, then you realize you don't have to lift heavy to maintain the muscle or even build it, because most of it is really associated with the calories that you're in taking. But then the stress you put to the muscle, you can still stress the muscle without going heavy and go higher, repetitions go slower. So once you understand that, then I think it makes sense, okay, what's the better approach to longevity? You know, to protecting my joints and not having issues where I'm always in pain, my joints are always in pain, you know, because I'm lifting so heavy, we all eventually have to make those adjustments as we get older. I had to, I'm 48 I had to make those adjustments. I'm not going out there squatting four or five or whatever anymore. Back in the day, I who am I competing against? And then also, I don't want to have a knee replacement, I don't want to have joint issues and stuff like that. So I had to make those adjustments, you know. So, yeah,

Philip Pape  34:42

yeah. And my thoughts on this have been nuanced and evolving over the years as well. It's kind of still mixed, right? Because I have a lot of friends and people listen to the show that are power lifters, or they are in their 50s and 60s, and get into lifting, and they, you know, they do the fives, right? They do the triples, they do the doubles. And it can. Managed, right? It's one of those things of like, you got to be really on top of everything. But even so, you do hear about tendonitis, and you hear about joint issues and people pulling stuff and whatnot, because if you're just out of the wrong position, you know, in the wrong position on a very heavy load, something can happen. So it's kind of a nuanced thing. But yeah, I hear you.

Obi Obadike  35:18

I think as long as you're aware of the risk involved in it. That's the most important thing. I would never tell someone what not to do, but just understand, if you're lifting, really having your power lifting, let's say you're in your 40s and your 50s, you're not going to be doing that in your 70s. You're not going to be like, like your body will tell you to make the adjustment. You know, your body's gonna say, my elbow is killing me, my knees are killing me. I can't lift you know, I've seen it. You have to have seen a power lifter in their 70s or even their 60s, you know? And if they have like, God bless them. And if they are power lifters, they just started as a senior citizen, they weren't doing it for like, 3030, years or 40 years. It's true.

Philip Pape  36:01

There is that if you start late, you get that advantage.

Obi Obadike  36:04

I want to make the adjustment earlier and just understand, like, I don't want to be in pain, man, as I get older, you know what I mean? And I want to enjoy my life and and, yeah, it's good. We all want to push ourselves in the gym, and I do it. But there's a number that I don't go higher than anymore. You know, I don't like, even when I do flat dumbbell chest press back in the day, I'd go up to 120s or I don't go more than 100 anymore. Man, that's that's the max. It's 100 for me. It's just trying to maintain the muscle. And that's where I'm at. If you've been lifting for more than 10 years consistently, you're considered an experienced fitness enthusiast, and so once you've been lifting for more than 10 years consistently, the theory is that you've hit your genetic potential. You can't improve anymore. You're not going to get any more muscle. So when you know that, you're like, okay, even if I increase and go heavier and heavier heavier, I can't improve anymore. You know, like we're all going to we're all dealing with the gravity aspect as we get older, it's inevitable. Like I say, Father Time is undefeated. What are we doing? We're just slowing it down. We are slowing the decline down. That's what we're doing. Okay? We're just, we're trying to freeze that mofo without the fillers and the Botox. Excuse me. No,

Philip Pape  37:19

I hear that look. I mean, I know a lot of lifters that go after the PRS, but then there comes a time when they have to switch it up, switch off the mode, go into some more bodybuilding and some higher up stuff, and they might occasionally dip back into chasing the PRs. And maybe there's a weight that's an extreme, like anything. It's like bodybuilding. It's like, you know, Morris going through his transformation. It's like the short term extreme at some cost of your health short term. But it's like, we're humans. We want to do that, just

Obi Obadike  37:45

like someone in their 40s or 50s still playing rugby. You know when you're when you're in your 20s, and you know when you're young. You know young kid you play tackle football in the rain with no pads. You didn't care, you know if you got injured. And then when you get old, you're like, Oh man, I want to get injured, kidding me, you know, you just start making calculated decisions. I don't want to go crazy like that anymore. You know, I got nothing to prove, you know, but, uh, you know, like anyone that could do that, and, and, and they're able to stay healthy, God bless them. You know, I'm not hate, you know, like, wow, I'd be probably a fan. I can't believe he's able to lift like that at that age. Wow.

Philip Pape  38:24

Yeah, no, awesome. So I guess the last piece here, because you've alluded to it a few times, is maintenance of, you know, maintaining long term results. And I can think of a few different scenarios, not just longevity as we age, maintaining muscle, but like, for example, if you lean out right and you're really dialed in, and you want to just, yeah, we want to have a good physique. And maybe you're in your 30s or 40s, you're not like up there in your 70s. Yet. How do we maintain those results long term? Does it start with, like you said, having that balanced ingrained in the whole process, or is there some trade off that has to be made once you say, get to a certain leanness that you know, if you just had a little bit extra weight, it wouldn't be nearly as difficult to maintain that long term. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah,

Obi Obadike  39:03

you know, I feel like you have to figure out what your set point is, and everyone will know exactly what you're doing regular body composition test. There's a thing called the in body scan that I use with that I've used with clients and stuff like that. And you do the body composition test, and they'll tell you exactly how many calories that you need to consume to maintain your body weight, okay? And once you get an idea of that, then you'll know exactly, okay, this is the amount of calories that I can consume to maintain my body weight, and this is how I should probably spread out my calories, you know? So I think it's important to find out exactly you know how many calories is needed to be able to maintain your body weight. And you'll get that in a body composition exam, you know. And I do the in body scan, which I like. And I think that once you you know that, then the amount of calories you're consuming. And to maintain your body weight. And then that, to me, is probably more crucial than anything in terms of your body composition, and that obviously making sure that you know you're training enough consistently to be able to support the calories that you're consuming. So I think the amount of calories you're consuming that is needed to maintain your body weight is probably really important to be able to maintain your body composition. You know what I mean? So let's just say, for example, you know, you do a body composition, and it's saying that, hey, you know, if you consume 2200 calories a day, that's able to maintain your body composition presently, right now, which is what you're happy with right then, you know? Okay, well, this is what I need. And I maybe I spread out my calories in a 4040, 20 way, or maybe a 4030 you know, figure out what that macro split is. So I feel like the calories that you're consuming needed to maintain your body weight is probably critical to maintaining your composition over a long term period of time, and then making sure that the exercise activity is also mirroring that as well.

Philip Pape  41:10

Yeah, I like that. You brought it to just the simple, practical energy balance answer of like, to maintain you got to be a maintenance calories like, there's no sense or buts about it, because we get a lot of people expressing fear, for example, after a fat loss phase of I'm going to regain all the weight, or what have you. And assuming they've already been tracking, and they kind of know their calories down to that point to have gotten there with that control, you know, I like to say, like, just continue to track and continue to be aware, and the awareness is going to prevent you from just randomly over consuming What about the mental side of it? Let's say a guy has gotten down to, like, 10 to 12% right, which is pretty lean. It's not like, you know, the movie star lean, but it's also not like a lifestyle, kind of where you start to lose your six pack. Okay, so 10 to 12% is that sustainable for a long period, or is it really highly variable based on, you know, the individual, their genetics and things like that.

Obi Obadike  42:02

Well, you know what? It depends, depends on your genetics. We don't talk about genetics, you know. So for example, for me, right? I'm a natural ectomorph. I'm a naturally thin person, right? You know me maintaining a body fat of like eight or 7% or six to 767, to 8% is easy for me. That's maintenance for me, right? But that's my genetics, you know? And I have to be honest, I have the genetics right that helps me to maintain those low body fat levels where someone else that may not have the genetics, that may not be a mesomorph or whatever, or someone that can maintain a high amount of muscle or state and have low body fat levels may not be able to do that like they're coming down to 10 to 12% but they're having the diet they're bought off. They haven't eat perfectly. And then if they eat in a normal way, without being in and they were extreme to get the 10 to 12, and then when they eat normally, that 10 to 12 goes up to maybe their set point. Their set point may be probably about 1516, 17% so why is that set point higher than mine? It's genetics. It sucks, man, this whole genetic lottery thing, it sucks because some people are just gifted, and they don't have to work, they don't have to probably eat like somebody else to maintain their set point. And that genetics is really going to dictate to how extreme you have to be to maintain a certain level of body fat, body composition that might be unreasonable for someone else, but reasonable for another person. That genetic lottery thing, it's a real thing.

Philip Pape  43:50

Yeah, no, I agree. And it's like we have to acknowledge that and not let it defeat us. Have realistic expectations, right? Have realistic expectations. As far as Yeah, my set point is probably 14% or which is much higher than yours. And you know, I was never in shape my whole life until I got older. So that could be part of it, too. You know, genetics, epigenetics, from when you're young. It

Obi Obadike  44:09

definitely could be. Because I think once you get to a point where you get comfortable training and eating a certain way, just your body starts to it, becomes used to it. But if you're someone who started late in the game. You know, it does take time for your body to get used to it. For me personally, I don't really eat. I eat when I'm hungry. I don't have I don't write down my calories, you know, and I don't even, surprisingly, I don't eat that much. I'm not really a big breakfast eater. I kind of more in the morning time. I do more of an intermittent fasting thing, and then I my biggest meals are lunch and dinner and then snacks in between. But that works for me, people that have been around me. So this guy doesn't eat that much. How he's able to maintain that type of muscle? You know, it's interesting. You know,

Philip Pape  44:52

it's very interesting. And I think if you do have a tendency to be on the heavier side, or it's harder to get down to the body fat, maybe. That's a good clue to, like, focus on building muscle, you know, instead. And just kind of because it does offset it a bit, I will say, from personal experience, like you see your abs at a higher scale weight when you have more muscle, like, that's just the fact of it. You still have to get lean, though, right? So it's kind of a blend, all right, man. So this has been a cool conversation. I do like to ask this question, of all guests, Ovi and that is, is there anything you wish I had asked today that I didn't and what is your answer? No,

Obi Obadike  45:24

no, no. Look, I anytime I get opportunity to talk about health and fitness and diet and nutrition, it's always a blessing, and I hope that anybody listening was able to take some nuggets and apply it to their everyday life. So I appreciate the opportunity. And I just wanted to say, hey, I have a supplement company called ethical inc.com and if anyone's interested in uh, purchasing any uh, weight loss supplements, like an appetite suppressant or a probiotic for gut health or even a multivitamin, go to ethical inc.com and if anyone's looking to want to get in better shape online, you know, I work with everyday people and celebrities, you can go to Obi obadiah.com and that's it. And I'm on social media, and for anyone's looking to I'm always posting articles and free health and wellness articles, you know, every other day to try to motivate and help people for free. So yeah, I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you so much. What's

Philip Pape  46:15

the best social platform for you?

Obi Obadike  46:16

Instagram, I would say. But I'm on Instagram and Facebook. I'm on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. I'm active daily. So, yeah,

Philip Pape  46:23

got it? Got it? Yep, super responsive. All right. So ethical link.com, obediki.com, and Instagram, Facebook, Twitter handles. We'll throw those in the show notes. Thanks again, man, it's been a pleasure. A lot of great knowledge in here. I'm sure people will learn you know at least a few things that are gonna level up their game. So thanks so much, man, Philip,

Obi Obadike  46:39

thanks a lot for having me on and much success to you and keep doing what you're doing. My brother.

Philip Pape  46:43

Thank you, sir. You.

The Paris 2024 Olympics Strategy for More Muscle and Less Fat (Optimization Theory) | Ep 201

How do Olympic athletes achieve peak performance while optimizing their body composition? The 2024 Paris Olympics are in the final stretch this week, so we're celebrating with this special themed episode!

Olympic athletes (and most athletes) strategically cycle their nutrition to achieve the targeted goal at the targeted time.

We're applying this concept to YOUR goals (on YOUR schedule), using the engineering principle of Optimization Theory. You'll learn how to use nutritional periodization to build more muscle, lose fat, prevent plateaus, and make your diet more effective and sustainable—and then optimize it for your unique circumstances.

If you're tired of yo-yo dieting or struggling to improve your body composition, this episode will show you how to engineer your nutrition like an Olympian preparing for Paris 2024.

To learn more about optimizing your body composition using this approach, join my FREE mailing list at https://witsandweights.com/email

Main takeaways:

• Nutritional periodization, inspired by Olympic athletes, can be adapted for everyday body composition goals.

• The cycle includes Building, Maintenance, Leaning Out, and Recovery phases, each with specific nutritional focuses.

• Optimization Theory allows for continuous fine-tuning based on individual responses and data.

• This approach not only leads to physical changes but can transform your relationship with food and your body.

Episodes mentioned:

• My 3 New Dieting Methods for Smarter, Easier Fat Loss in 2024 | Ep 186

• My Stair-Step Fat Loss Process to Get Lean and Ripped | Ep 191

Episode summary:

We dive deep into the principles that Olympic athletes use to achieve peak performance and optimal body composition. By aligning nutrition with your body's natural rhythms and incorporating periods of progress, maintenance, and recovery, you can avoid the pitfalls of yo-yo dieting and inconsistent energy levels. This blog post will explore the key topics discussed in the episode, providing you with actionable insights to transform your body and achieve your fitness goals sustainably.

Nutritional periodization is a strategy used by elite athletes that involves cycling through different phases of nutrition to optimize performance and body composition. The four distinct phases are building, performance, leaning out, and recovery. Each phase plays a crucial role in muscle gain and fat loss, making the journey toward your fitness goals more effective and sustainable.

The building phase focuses on muscle growth. During this phase, you create a slight calorie surplus and increase carbohydrate intake to fuel your workouts and support muscle development. It's important to consume enough protein to aid in muscle repair and growth. This phase might come with some weight gain, but it's essential for building a strong foundation.

Next is the performance phase, where you maintain the gains achieved during the building phase. Here, you shift to maintenance calories, ensuring you have enough energy to sustain your performance levels. This phase helps you hold onto the muscle and strength gains while preventing unnecessary fat accumulation.

The leaning out phase involves a controlled calorie deficit to improve your strength-to-weight ratio or reveal muscle definition. During this phase, protein intake might increase to preserve muscle mass while reducing overall calorie intake. This phase is particularly beneficial for athletes who need to make weight classes or individuals aiming to achieve a leaner physique.

Finally, the recovery phase brings you back to maintenance calories, giving your body a break from dieting. This phase is crucial for mental and physical recovery, preventing burnout, and preparing you for the next cycle of nutritional periodization. It's a time to focus on sustaining your habits and enjoying the benefits of your hard work.

Optimization theory, an engineering principle, plays a significant role in nutritional periodization. By maximizing or minimizing a function, you can find the best solution for your fitness goals. This approach involves continuously gathering data and making small, calculated adjustments based on your individual response. Tracking metrics such as scale weight, circumference measurements, lifting progression, and biofeedback like hunger, recovery, energy, digestion, sleep, and stress levels are essential for fine-tuning your nutrition plan.

One of the most transformative aspects of nutritional periodization is its impact on your relationship with food and your body. Instead of perpetual dieting or avoiding structure, you adopt a strategic and purposeful approach to nutrition. This method not only leads to physical changes but also fosters a healthier mindset toward food and body composition.

For example, one of our clients, Sarah, experienced a profound transformation through nutritional periodization. After years of yo-yo dieting, she learned to map out her nutrition over six to twelve months, aligning it with her goals. By starting with a maintenance phase, she relieved the pressure of constant dieting and developed sustainable habits. During the leaning out phase, she achieved significant fat loss without crash dieting. The recovery phase allowed her to maintain her results and enjoy a balanced approach to nutrition.

Nutritional periodization offers a structured approach that can be tailored to anyone's body composition goals, not just elite athletes. It provides a clear roadmap, enabling you to progress efficiently and sustainably. Whether you're aiming to build muscle, lose fat, or improve overall performance, this strategy helps you achieve your goals without constant struggle.

To further support your fitness journey, we invite you to join our email list at witsandweights.com/email. By signing up, you'll receive exclusive content, practical tips, and direct access to our community. This is an opportunity to gain valuable insights and support as you work toward your fitness goals. Remember, achieving your dream physique requires a strategic and personalized approach, just like the athletes preparing for the Paris 2024 Olympics.

In summary, nutritional periodization is a powerful principle that aligns your nutrition with your body's natural rhythms. By cycling through the phases of building, performance, leaning out, and recovery, you can achieve sustainable muscle gain and fat loss. Optimization theory helps you make small, calculated adjustments based on your individual response, ensuring efficient progress. This strategy not only transforms your physical appearance but also improves your relationship with food and your body. Embrace nutritional periodization, and start your journey toward peak performance and sustainable fitness today.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

What we're talking about today is how these Olympic athletes strategically cycle their nutrition to achieve peak performance, but also optimize their body composition, as some sports call for that. And if you're listening to this and you have a goal of leaning out, of building muscle, losing fat, we are going to talk about using the engineering principle of optimization theory to do that to build more muscle, lose fat, prevent plateaus, make your diet more effective and sustainable. So if you're tired of the yo-yo dieting, if you're not sure what to do with your diet, if you're struggling to improve your body composition, this episode will show you how to engineer your nutrition like an Olympian. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip P, and I want you to think about this. You've been dieting on and off for months, maybe for years, and sometimes you make progress, sometimes you don't. Your energy fluctuates, your workouts feel inconsistent, you're not quite sure if you're building muscle or kind of spinning your wheels and going up and down Sound familiar. Well, what if I told you that there is a way to structure your nutrition that allows for both muscle gain and fat loss without feeling like you're constantly fighting this uphill battle and not really making progress. And this is a method that aligns with your body's natural rhythms, perhaps even with your schedule, with periods of progress, with periods of progress, with periods of maintenance, with periods of recovery. Whatever life throws at you, you can handle it, and that's what we're exploring in today's episode, which is all about optimization theory. We're going to break down how you can apply the nutritional strategies of Olympic athletes to your own body composition goals, even if you never plan to compete or step on a platform or go to the Olympics, like most of us won't.

Philip Pape: 2:09

Before we dive in, if you're enjoying the show, if you want more content on building muscle and losing fat efficiently, if you want content on periodization, sign up for my email list. The link is in the show notes or you can just go to witsandweightscom slash email and you will get all sorts of unique angles, interesting strategies, helpful content. Some of it's psychology, some of it's training, some of it is nutrition, special promotions, challenges all that fun stuff that you would only get on the email list. Again, click the link in my show notes or go to witsandweightscom slash email. So when most people think about dieting, they often fall into one of two camps the chronic calorie cutter, who's always restricting you know who you are. Or the eat whatever whenever crowd or eat in moderation. Or, you know, cut carbs or whatever, who avoids any form of structure other than some general blueprint or diet. Here's the thing neither of these approaches is optimal. I think you know that they're not optimal if you want to achieve and maintain your best physique and not even optimal. They're not even effective, they're not even sustainable, and that's the use of optimal that I'm using today.

Philip Pape: 3:13

But that is where a concept called nutritional periodization comes in, and it's a strategy used by athletes in general. That's where we get the concept from, but it can be definitely applied to you. It's not just for elite competitors. We can adapt it to body composition for anyone, and in fact, it's exactly the approach that I take with my clients, whether it is in Physique University or one-on-one clients. That is what we do. So I want to talk about optimization theory and you'll see how this all comes together, about optimization theory and you'll see how this all comes together In engineering. This is a principle that is about maximizing or minimizing a function to find the best solution. In our case, we are using nutritional periodization to maximize fat loss and muscle retention, or to gain muscle and minimize fat gain, right, all while minimizing the negative impacts of our dieting, because we want it to be at least sustainable, if not enjoyable, depending on what process we're in.

Philip Pape: 4:15

So if we think about the Olympics and we think about athletes and how they do this, right, they do periodize their training. That is not what we're talking about today. I wanna talk about how they periodize their nutrition. That is not what we're talking about today. I want to talk about how they periodize their nutrition, and they tend to have four different phases or seasons. And so the one phase is the building phase, and this is where you are focusing on building muscle. You're in a slight surplus, you have higher carbs and you're either building strength or muscle. You're working on that skill and you're not selling yourself short in the energy department. You're giving yourself all that you need and, yes, it might come with a trade-off of you're going to gain some weight, kind of like the off season. Okay, that's one phase.

Philip Pape: 4:58

Then we have the performance phase. This is where you shift to potentially maintenance calories. Right, you've gotten the skill development, you've gotten the strength, you've gotten the muscle and now you're going to balance things out and fuel your performance and hold on to those gains from the building phase. Then you might have a leaning out phase, especially for sports where they need an improved strength to weight ratio. Right, think of endurance athletes, where you need to lean out and get a little bit lighter. There's a lot of examples of this. Not all sports apply right. In some sports, bigger, bigger, bigger is better, and I'm not really talking about those. So the lean out phase this is where we now introduce a gradual calorie deficit. Maybe the protein comes up a little bit, you reveal some of the muscle you've built, or you lighten out just to reduce scale weight, maybe for a weight class or some other performance metric. But again, if you just care about how you look or your physique or aesthetics, this is also simply where you're going to reveal that muscle.

Philip Pape: 5:51

And then, finally, we have the recovery phase, which is where we get back to maintenance calories. We come out of the dieting phase and then we focus back on getting to the routine we were in before before we get back to the next cycle of building. Now, through all of these cycles, the principles are roughly the same, but there are changes. There are differences. It cannot be helped. The calories change, the hunger signals change, the goal is different, even though the principles are roughly the same.

Philip Pape: 6:21

And again you might be thinking look, I'm not an athlete, do I need to do all this? Do I need to do cuts and bulks and all this stuff? And the beauty of this approach is it doesn't have to be extreme, it doesn't have to be even that difficult. It could be very gradual and you can spend as long as you want in any of these phases. You could even skip some phases in certain cases. And it really comes down to how quickly not quickly as in quick fix, but how much you're willing to go in one direction or another and really step on the gas pedal to, overall, improve your body composition a little more efficiently than someone else who might be okay coasting for a while, right?

Philip Pape: 6:56

So for the average person, what does this look like? All right, in the building phase, you might have a very slight surplus, something like this a quarter percent of your body weight a week, right, and that's where you would have plenty of protein. You would still have good quality food. You might have to have extra food, though, to get the calories in. You're gonna have more carbs and you're gonna be training really hard and really building your growth, your muscle, without excessive fat gain. And for some of you, building phase can be very lean, but I typically recommend around that sweet spot of 0.2 to 0.3% body weight a week.

Philip Pape: 7:31

The performance phase, that's the next one. That's where you get out of the building muscle and you come back to more of a maintenance phase where you stay there for a while. You sustain your habits, you sustain your body composition. Maybe you're a little bit heavier and you're ready for a cut, but you've come out of that building phase and this may be as short as zero days for some people who just want to go straight into a cut, or it may be hey, I'm going to hang out here for a while and take advantage of my larger body mass for my numbers and everything else.

Philip Pape: 7:58

Then we get to the leaning out phase and most people listen to my podcast. They're coming here. They're like how do I lose fat? Or most people sign up as a client. You know how do I lose fat? Not everyone. Some people want to go straight into the building phase, but leaning out is where we apply that moderate calorie deficit. You know, moderate for you, which could be aggressive for someone else, but for you it might be moderate to aggressive, depending on your calories, depending on your metabolism.

Philip Pape: 8:21

And we do it strategically and we do it for a defined period. And by strategically I mean there's many ways to do it. We could do it as a straight line, like every day you're eating these calories, or we can alter it, we can cycle it, we can even cycle the dieting phase with breaks and these are topics I've talked about extensively on some of my recent episodes, such as my stair-step fat loss process or my three new dieting methods. Go check those out. And then we have recovery. We always have to have recovery out of a dieting phase, right, not a reverse diet, not a reverse diet. We recover straight to our maintenance calories and we give our bodies and minds a final break from that deficit. And we've revealed our muscle and now we are ready to walk around and just maintain those results for as long as we want, until you get the bug for the next building phase, which many of us do. So that is what we mean by periodization, and this allows us to optimize our nutrition for our goals at different times, just like Olympians do, just like athletes do, but tailored to your everyday life and body composition goals.

Philip Pape: 9:22

Now, I mentioned optimization theory before and I really want to tie it to that and show you where it comes into play, because throughout this process, we're constantly gathering data and making adjustments. Without that, you cannot do this, you simply can't. It is going to be so much more frustrating. You're not going to know what's going on, there's going to be much more uncertainty and it's going to take a lot longer. My clients want to be efficient, they want to get it done, they want to know what's happening, they want to have confidence and they want to be able to fire me and do it on their own. And so this curiosity of hey, what's going on with my body? What's going on with my? Well, we're going to talk about the metrics. We track, but what's going on, so that I can make those adjustments and rapidly prototype my body along the way and go from start to finish as efficiently as possible, rather than blindly following some fixed plan.

Philip Pape: 10:14

We're optimizing it based on our individual response, and that means tracking not just your scale weight which you should and daily would be ideal but also your circumference measurements your lifts, your lifting, progression, progress photos and, most importantly, honestly is how you feel, your biofeedback, your hunger, your recovery, are you recovering well from workouts, are you sore? Your energy, your digestion, your sleep, your stress. All of this is valuable data and then, like an engineer fine-tuning a system, we make small adjustments, just small adjustments. Right? Maybe you need a few more carbs in the building phase to fuel your workouts. Maybe you can handle a slightly larger deficit in the leaning out phase without losing muscle. And the key here is we are not making drastic changes. We're making small, calculated adjustments to optimize our results. And that's exactly what Olympic athletes and their nutritionists do, and they pay them a lot of money, or somebody pays them a lot of money and you can do this on your own. You can do this with a little bit of support. You can get a little extra support by reaching out to me and we can talk about that. But they're constantly fine tuning, based on their performance and based on their body composition data, to get where they need to be. And the real power of this just to give you a little bit of a surprise here at the end is nutritional periodization. While it does give you the physical changes. It profoundly transforms your relationship with food and your relationship with your body.

Philip Pape: 11:43

All right, so one of my clients I'm going to call her Sarah. She came to me after years of yo-yo dieting very common, right, you've been dieting for years and she was either always on a diet and she tried all the fad diets, including keto, which is probably the most popular one today, other than, say, carnivore. Uh, I think she did weight watchers in the past as well. She was either on or she was, you know, off the wagon, off the track, right, there's no in between. And even if there's an in between, it's like no man's land uncertainty.

Philip Pape: 12:13

And we started with the maintenance phase, at the recovery phase, as the lead up to the leaning out phase. And we talked about periodization and how, hey, we're going to map out the next six to 12 months and I mean literally map it out Like I will take a whiteboard, we'll draw a quick, quick and dirty little graph for the next 12 months and we'll scratch out what it looks like to periodize your nutrition over time. And it completely changed her perspective and I see this all the time. It's this aha moment of oh wow, like I can actually do this and I know with certainty that I'm going to go from here to there and here there maybe. Maybe as simple as I'm going to lean out with 15 pounds of fat loss right During the building phase.

Philip Pape: 12:53

Uh, you then, once you've leaned out, what's cool about that is, once you've leaned out, now you're confident you can do it. We can go the other direction and you're confident you can do that without gaining too much weight, just gaining the right amount of weight and doing it on purpose, to build muscle. And then you learn to eat, not for emotion or because you can't help yourself, but you eat for performance, you eat for recovery, you care about nutrient density and whole foods because they fuel you and they feel good, not because they're quote unquote healthy. When you're in a maintenance phase, you practice sustaining the new habits, and Sarah did exactly that right. She now knew what to do. She didn't have the pressure of being on a diet, but it wasn't like going back quote unquote back to whatever you were eating before. It's still eating the same way. It's just scaling things a little bit.

Philip Pape: 13:38

And when she was in a fat loss phase, she learned that she could lose fat without crash dieting. And that's the key it's controlled, it's controlled and then you don't do it forever. You give your body a break with the recovery. And this is so typical of pretty much everybody I work with. And in her case, by the end of that fat loss phase it was about 16 weeks she had lost something like 18 pounds. I was looking at her data. She lost about 18 pounds of fat, lost several inches on her waist. She actually gained some muscle because there was a net improvement in her body composition while she was losing fat, so she had some recomp. She actually built some muscle and lost some fat, so she didn't even have to lose that much weight on the scale. The most important thing is she now had this sustainable, fun, enjoyable approach to nutrition that she can maintain long term. She knew how to handle vacations. She knew how to handle vacations. She knew how to handle going out. She knew how to handle being in the summer versus being in the winter, versus the holidays versus the spring.

Philip Pape: 14:34

And that's the power of nutritional periodization, right, it's not just about the physical, it's the approach that keeps you progressing year after year and you enjoy the process All right. So, as we wrap up, let me just recap all of this. Number one nutritional periodization is a powerful principle that we can live by, that is used by athletes and we can adapt it for our own body composition goals. Number two it involves cycling through different phases building, maintenance, leaning out, recovery each with its own focus, each with its own goal. Number three by applying optimization theory, we can continually fine tune our approach in those phases, based on our individual response and data. It's not fixed. And number four this strategy not only leads to physical changes, but can also transform your relationship with food and your body.

Philip Pape: 15:30

Achieving and maintaining your ideal body composition, your dream physique, whatever you want to call it, isn't about perpetual dieting. It isn't about avoiding structure. It's not about intuitive eating. It's not just quote, unquote, listening to your body. It's strategic planning. It's purposeful nutrition with intent and ongoing optimization based on your feedback. That's it. That's really what it is when you put it all together, it's clarity and confidence.

Philip Pape: 15:55

All right, again, if you want to learn more about optimizing your body composition using this approach and many of the other things that we'd use, just join my free email list. That's all you got to do Join the list, you'll get the information and then, of course, if you ever want to reach out. You can reply and say hey, philip, what's up, I have a question and I'll answer it. That's it, simple. Go to witsandweightscom, slash email or click the link in my show notes. You'll get exclusive content that I don't share anywhere else tips on how to apply principles like these, journey, and you have a direct line of connection to me and our community. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights, and remember, in nutrition, as in the Paris 2024 Olympics, it's all about strategic periodization and optimizing. For you, this is Philip Pape. You've been listening to Wits and Weights and I'll talk to you next time.

7 Biggest Fitness & Nutrition Myths Busted After 200 Episodes (According to Listeners) | Ep 200

Are you tired of hitting roadblocks in your fitness journey? Do you wonder if some of your fitness and nutrition beliefs might be holding you back?

In this milestone 200th episode of Wits & Weights, host Philip (@witsandweights) pulls back the curtain on the biggest surprises that can transform your approach to health and fitness. Get ready to challenge what you think you know and discover powerful insights that can elevate your results!

Throughout the episode, Philip shares insights from the Wits & Weights community, showing how these myth-busting lessons have led to real-world transformations. By the end of this episode, you'll have a fresh perspective on fitness and nutrition, armed with evidence-based strategies to achieve your best physique and live your healthiest life.

📱Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes. 

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:22 Myth #1: You need to eat less to lose weight
7:17 Myth #2: You need to avoid certain foods
9:49 Myth #3: You need to obsess over numbers
15:00 Myth #4: Fitness and nutrition are complicated
18:52 Myth #5: Your current workout routine is optimal
23:30 Myth #6: Failures are setbacks
26:07 Myth #7: Fitness is solely focused on physical health
29:05 Changes based on the community's feedback
35:15 Outro

Episode resources:

• Reach out to Philip on IG @witsandweights

• Bonus: Share a screenshot of this episode on your story and tag Philip so he can re-share it!

Episode summary:

Ever wondered if eating more could actually help you lose weight? In the 200th episode of the Wits and Weights podcast, we tackle some of the most surprising myths and misconceptions in fitness and nutrition. This episode features inspiring stories from listeners who have transformed their perspectives and achieved real results through consistency and simplicity.

The episode kicks off with a deep dive into seven surprising myths that have been busted over the years. One of the most intriguing is the idea that eating more can aid in fat loss. Alan, a dedicated listener, shares how he shifted from viewing food as something to restrict to seeing it as essential fuel for progress. This mindset shift, from restriction to additive nutrition, aligns with scientifically-backed strategies for optimizing performance and recovery. Flexible dieting and non-linear approaches are highlighted as effective methods for achieving long-term transformation.

Consistency and simplicity emerge as key themes throughout the episode. Wyatt, another community member, shares his journey of moving away from meticulous tracking of numbers and focusing on the bigger picture of consistent habits. His story debunks the myth that perfection is necessary for success. Instead, small, sustainable changes can lead to significant, long-term results. Isis also contributes by demonstrating how straightforward and logical approaches to fitness can be both effective and easy to maintain.

Listener feedback has played a crucial role in shaping the podcast’s direction. This episode highlights how the content has evolved to better serve the audience, introducing new formats and focusing on specific demographics and issues. Rita’s story underscores the importance of aligning workout routines with personal goals, such as incorporating resistance training for muscle building. Her experience highlights the need to adapt and find routines that align with individual goals, emphasizing that effective strategies don’t have to be complicated or restrictive.

Breaking down fitness and nutrition myths, the podcast celebrates its milestone by reflecting on the biggest surprises and lessons learned. Alan’s experience with additive nutrition and flexible dieting illustrates how eating more can actually be a secret weapon for fat loss. By viewing food as fuel for progress, rather than something to restrict, Alan has optimized his approach to nutrition in a way that aligns with evidence-based strategies. This approach emphasizes the importance of fueling the body for performance, recovery, and long-term transformation.

The episode also delves into the importance of consistency and simplicity. Wyatt’s insights reveal the pitfalls of obsessing over precise numbers in fitness and nutrition tracking. By focusing on consistent habits rather than perfection, Wyatt has achieved significant long-term results. Isis further illustrates how uncomplicated, logical approaches to fitness can be both effective and sustainable. Her story emphasizes that efficient strategies do not have to be complicated or restrictive, and the most sustainable approaches are often the least like traditional dieting.

Mindful practices in fitness are another key topic discussed. The episode challenges misconceptions around achieving desired physiques, emphasizing that it doesn’t require constant hunger or deprivation. Understanding energy balance and proper nutrition allows for more flexibility in diet plans, making them simpler and more sustainable. Rita’s experience highlights the importance of adapting workout routines to align with personal goals. By incorporating resistance training and building confidence in the gym, Rita has achieved better results, demonstrating that effective strategies can be simple and empowering.

Listener feedback has been instrumental in the podcast’s evolution. A recent listener survey revealed the real-world impact of the show, with many listeners reporting significant influences on their approach to fitness, nutrition, and health. Based on this feedback, several changes have been made to the show’s format, including reducing episode frequency to avoid overwhelming subscribers, introducing more varied formats, and focusing on specific demographics and issues. These enhancements aim to provide more relevant, practical, and engaging content for the community.

Engaging directly with the audience is a recurring theme in the episode. Listeners are invited to share their biggest takeaways or surprises from the show and to send questions or express frustrations encountered online or from other podcasts. This feedback loop is crucial for creating better content and helping other listeners learn from the show. Emphasizing the importance of gradual progress in fitness journeys, the podcast encourages continuous improvement, mirroring its own journey to reach 200 episodes through consistent, incremental progress.

In summary, the 200th episode of Wits and Weights is a celebration of busting fitness and nutrition myths, highlighting the importance of consistency, simplicity, and mindful practices. Real stories from listeners like Alan, Wyatt, and Rita provide practical insights and inspiration for anyone on a fitness journey. By evolving based on listener feedback, the podcast continues to offer valuable, evidence-based content that empowers listeners to achieve their fitness goals.

This episode serves as a blueprint for changing the game in fitness and nutrition. It encourages listeners to rethink their strategies, embrace flexibility, and focus on consistent, sustainable habits. With a commitment to evidence-based approaches and continuous improvement, Wits and Weights is dedicated to helping listeners build their best physique and live their healthiest lives. As the podcast moves forward into the next 200 episodes and beyond, it remains a valuable resource for anyone seeking practical, impactful information.

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:01

Everything we think we know about fitness and nutrition might be wrong. At least that's the impression I have after 200 episodes of diving deep into the evidence and having meaningful conversations with listeners who follow the show. To mark our 200 bowl episode, today, we're doing something special. I reach out to some of our most loyal listeners, the ones who've been with us since the early days, and ask them about the biggest surprises they've learned from the show. That shattered a long health fitness or nutrition myth, the conventional wisdom that everyone takes for granted and are pushed hard by the fitness industry, even though they're probably not true. From eating more to working out less to discovering your biggest obstacles, not what you thought. I'm pulling back the curtain on the seven biggest surprises from the first 200 episodes of The Whitson weights podcast. Whether you're a longtime listener, or this is your first time tuning in. I think this episode serves as a blueprint for changing the game and being doing and becoming a better human being, not just for your physical and mental health, but for living a long and fulfilling life. Welcome to rich and weights, a podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape  01:21

I'm your host, Philip pape, and today we are celebrating a major milestone, our 200th episode. Whoo. All right, can you believe it? Since launching in November 2021, we've actually published over 300 Total episodes, with 200 of those being full numbered episodes like this one, we've hit over 275,000 Total downloads 25,000 downloads per month, and are now listened to an over 140 countries and almost 7000 cities. It is extremely humbling to see how far we've come and how many lives we've touched. But this show isn't about just numbers, it really is about you, our listeners, without which it wouldn't exist. It's about what you've learned how you've taken action, and the progress you've made to transform your life for the better. So today, we are turning the spotlight on you and sharing some of the biggest surprises and lessons our longtime listeners have learned over 200 episodes. Now these are real world examples of how evidence based approaches can change lives by simply offering a fresh, grounded perspective on how things actually work based on science and based on your body and your mind, because it is very personalized, so that you can take full control and get the health and physique you want. Now, if any of these stand out for you, after you listen to this episode, or if anything changes your perspective, either as a longtime listener, or just from the episode itself. I would love it if you shared a screenshot of this episode to your Instagram or Facebook story and tag me just to celebrate the 200 just to let people know, hey, I listened to the show. They just had their 200th episode, check it out, I will reshare it to my audience. And that way I know a few of you out there were inspired by the episode or as by listening to the show. Again, just take a screenshot in your podcast app, share it online and tag me at Whitsun Wix. All right, let's dive into the seven biggest surprises or Myths Busted after 200 episodes of the wits and weights podcast. The first surprise is how eating more could be your secret weapon for fat loss. And this one is from Alan, one of our longtime listeners. And he said quote, the biggest lesson is that I view food as fuel for progress. Whether I'm holding on to muscle for a cut phase, or adding muscle in a bulking phase, I typically looked at food in regards to how much to restrict. Now I look at food as what foods can I add to align with what I need for my physical goals. And that word add is important because we talk about additive nutrition as an adding some protein to your plate. Right? As opposed to taking things away. And this shift from restriction and deprivation to let's fuel ourselves, right, let's support ourselves let's serve ourselves is really a huge shift that people make during this process. And it aligns with what we talked about with adequate nutrition for muscle building and fat loss. Nutrition is always on this show in the context of what we are trying to do with our body and improve it. Not in the context of I'm trying to lose weight. Or I feel like I have to cut something out. Because your body does need fuel. It needs fuel to perform, to recover and ultimately to transform over time because it's adding new tissue. It's releasing some fat along the way. And that requires energy and energy out and thinking that way right chronic under eating, which many of you know who you are. Right when you about the state of low energy, like you're never quite there where you need to be in the gym. And that hinders your progress, it leads to things like muscle loss, right when you're on a weight loss drug and you lose weight too fast, for example, or when you don't have enough carbs, and now you don't have the performance to hit it in the gym. It can slow down your metabolism, you know, not permanently, we can't break our metabolisms, but we can definitely cause them to slow down and to adapt in the short term with our lifestyle choices. So by viewing food as fuel for progress, instead of something to be feared or restricted, or to punish ourselves with, we are looking at it as fuel to add to our plate to support our nutrition and our training. This is just one of many examples you're going to hear today of working smarter and more efficiently, right? Looking at these things as tools for progress, rather than something that emotionally or morally restricts us, right and Alan with his comment, he's optimized his approach to nutrition in a way that perfectly aligns with the evidence as well. He also mentioned something else that caught my attention, he said, quote, in addition to the additive nutrition comment, my biggest surprise and helpful strategy is flexible, slash non linear dieting, especially the stairstep fat loss approach. This release changed my mental approach to the physical and detailed aspects of my nutrition and quote. And so if you've been a regular listener, or even just listen to some recent episodes, go back into the catalogue and look at recent ones about my three new dieting methods, or the one that I did called My stairstep fat loss process. We've talked about nonlinear dieting, quite a bit nonlinear meaning you don't necessarily have to lose weight at the exact same rate. And you don't have to eat the same amount of calories every day, there's creative ways to work with our bodies and work with our lives. And our schedules, instead of assuming has to be one way, right, one size fits all. And then that allows for periods of more aggressive fat loss, interspersed with maintenance phases. And these can be easier to sustain both physically and mentally, and both short term and long term. And that's a great example of how we can make these strategies effective, but long lasting, okay. That's the first surprise. The second surprise is how embracing all foods leads to less stress, more freedom, and more long term success. And this actually comes from Carol, her comment brief but powerful, she said, quote, a mindset shift from restriction to food freedom. And this ties in beautifully with what Alan was talking about, doesn't it about additive nutrition, and fueling your body and not worrying about cutting things out. It's not about saying no to foods, but instead, saying that anything can go as long as it serves me right now, not eating whatever you want, whenever you want. Not that YOLO diet, the dream balk, right? Or not assuming that you're going to be able to cut aggressively eating all pizza and doughnuts. It's about understanding that all foods can fit into a healthy dietary pattern, when consumed in the right amounts in the right macro balance with the right amount of micronutrients for you. And that allows you to make informed choices in they're informed by what you want, right in terms of your goals, your preferences, the food preferences, but they're also informed by what you need. Rather than following a rigid diet, a diet plan demonizing certain foods, cutting foods out great. And when you do that, when you're like, Oh, I could actually eat anything. As long as I stick to some calorie macros and any other you know, goals I've set for myself, like my meal timing or whatnot, reduces stress around eating, it makes social situations like going out to restaurants, going to vacations, going to that party and having the cake right, even Yes, drinking some alcohol easier to navigate. And then that is what leads to healthier relationship with food because you're not saying can't have that kind of have that can't have that and then you binge right, the Restrict binge cycle goes away. And this is backed by science we've seen for years studies comparing flexible dieting, with rigid dieting rigid meaning I have a meal plan, or I have to eat these foods and I can't eat these foods. Those have consistently been shown to be unsuccessful for not only losing weight often but maintaining it. Whereas flexible dieting allows you to get to your goal, whether that's losing fat, gaining muscle, maintaining your weight, whatever, and then stay there stay wherever you want to be for a while. And that leads to long term health and success. Right and so that is where Carol has definitely set herself up by thinking that way based on this podcast, which is awesome. Okay. The third surprise is why obsessing over numbers, despite the importance of tracking and measuring could be sabotaging your progress. Whew, now you're thinking, Wait a minute, Philip, you talk about data all the time data and driven, tailored, engineered, right. But let's dive into this what I'm talking about Wyatt, Wyatt, longtime listener and Facebook community member. He said, quote, it doesn't need to be so precise and exact. It means even more coming from the science and engineering nerds, which I'm gladly and openly part of the science and engineering nerds. So what is he talking about? All right, as an engineer myself, and every week we put on an episode that ties engineering to fitness, I can certainly relate 100,000% to the desire for precision. But why it is also correct because when it comes to nutrition and fitness, if you overthink or over obsess over exact numbers, especially at the exclusion of other things, right, or without seeing the big picture, it can definitely cause more harm, more neuroticism, and obsession, then, you know, productive progress. I'm going to add some context here. But he went on to say, quote, Greg knuckles topic on TDE calculations. Alright, that's your metabolism was super eye opening, especially knowing that they can be super inaccurate in either direction. So he's talking about the calculators online. When you go to an online calculator to figure out how many calories you burn every day, they can be very inaccurate, either direction, continuing his quote, If I go out to eat, I don't have to be so precise with every single ingredient and calorie. That plate of pasta is about 1000 calories. Okay, sounds close enough and quote. So he's making an important distinction that while tracking itself, is extremely useful, and I encourage it, I encourage tracking so many things that help you see the big picture, it's important to remember that the level of tracking precision has a point of diminishing returns where you could be spending too much time overthinking it, too much perfectionist tendencies too much neuroticism. A good example would be when you go to a restaurant, you probably shouldn't be taking a food scale with you just estimate, right? When you're at home, even though you're weighing your food, if you've got 10 ingredients, maybe you only need to log two or three of the ingredients that have the most energy, right, it's a matter of degrees. Even with scale weight, right, we weigh ourselves daily, but we don't obsess over it, we actually want to look at the trend over time. When you go to the gym, you're tracking your PRs, you're tracking your lifts, sometimes you're not gonna have a good day and it's fine, you might miss a rep, you get back to it, you use that information, but you don't overthink it. Because your body is not a perfectly calibrated machine. It's actually this very gooey, organic, complex biological system that varies day to day. And so when we can take it as a system, where we can take it as a whole, we can actually be a lot more flexible. And I'll say graceful with ourselves and how we use this data. So he actually continued with what he wrote to me, quote, with that comes the realization that one day of eating doesn't make or break me. And there's no need to beat myself up over an individual choice in a day, I'm more conscious of the way foods make me feel like Ooh, that was a lot of oil, rather than how they fit into my perfect macronutrient. Target. And so there's this concepts of, you know, consistency over perfection, knowing that one choice you make during one day doesn't change your trajectory for the rest of your life. Right. It's like, just take it as it comes, track the data. But don't overdo it. Focus on the big picture, and keep moving, keep making progress, keep iterating and adjusting and experimenting, but not getting hung up. Right. And his realization about this precision versus consistency is a very key principle to efficient progress, including time efficiency, because you're not getting bogged down in daily minutiae that then takes all this extra time. Right. And oftentimes I hear people, clients and community members say, like, well, it just takes too much time to do this thing. And I'm like, Well, let's think of a different, more efficient way to get you that result. That might be 7080 90%, rather than 100%. And that's more than good enough. It's way better than zero. And then finally, Wyatt summed it up beautifully here, quote, it's the consistent habits over time that really make the difference. I have confidence that I am consistently eating protein, hitting my calorie goals, training hard, and doing what it takes overall, just takes time and consistency. Hell yeah, man. Like that. Is it right there. Thank you for summarizing the whole premise of this show. And echoing what we've said over and over, that it's not about being perfect every day. It's been good enough most of the time, and you're gonna get there very efficiently that way. All right. Number four. The fourth surprise is how simplicity usually beats out complexity. And you can see a common theme between all of this stuff like Simplicity vs. Complexity is somewhat related to what we just talked about, from why and of not overthinking, right. Moving on to ISIS, who shared this perspective, ISIS was on the show before and she's a longtime listener, she said, quote, how uncomplicated, and logical it was to get the body I always dreamed of, and how much I get to eat in the process. Alright, and quote. So this touches on two key points that we've also come back to time and again, first, effective fitness and nutrition doesn't need to be complicated. In fact, one of the simplest approaches are often I should say the simplest approaches are the most effective, because they are the easiest to stick to consistently, even if they require effort. You know what to do? You get it done, you get the feedback. If you're not getting it done, you'll know and then you get it done right. Second, is that achieving the physique that you want, does not mean constant hunger, and deprivation. Now, I'm kind of mixing two different things here, I understand. But when you understand the principles of energy balance and proper nutrition, you could usually eat more than you think, while still making progress toward your goals. And that ties back to what Alan and Carol said about moving away from a restrictive mindset and also ties into what ISIS is saying about simplicity, right. Because the diet plans the meal plans, they actually make it too complicated. Flexibility means every day can be a little bit different. You can roll the punches, you can take life as it comes. And that is being human. Right, focus on fueling your body, making the nutritious choices to fuel you. And now it actually becomes a lot simpler to get through your day, to plan out your week to plan out your meals. And then you probably eat a surprising amount of food while still losing fat or building muscle as you go through that process.

Philip Pape  17:08

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I've noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest cleanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape  18:29

So irises, no surprise here at how simple it is, and how abundant it is. highlights the core principle that efficient strategies do not have to be complicated. They don't have to be restrictive. The most sustainable approaches are usually the ones that actually feel the least like dieting. That is the key here. And so therefore it's simple. It's liberating. It's empowering. Okay, so you hear some very overlapping themes here. The fifth surprise is how your favorite workouts might have passed their expiration date and no longer serve you. All right. What do I mean by this? Let's look at Rita's comment. So Rita touched on something that many of you struggle with, and that is you have a workout routine that you like. And now a fitness guru or fitness influencer or podcast host like myself comes along and says, maybe you want to reconsider that that might not be serving you. And she says quote, speaking of mindset, I found it interesting and a hard transition to the adjustment for moving away from my bootcamp classes that were not giving me the results I want. However, now that I'm building confidence in the gym, new routines and flexible nutrition, I'm in a better place and quote, and I'm glad Rita brought this up because many people they get stuck in workout routines that are not serving them. Well. It's usually out of out of habit, or fear of change, or maybe they actually enjoy it, but it's not giving them the result. Right and she mentioned boot camp Ansan I've heard this a lot with my clients, especially female clients who do the various group classes, they love the camaraderie, they love the community, I have the same experience with CrossFit very often. But it wasn't give me the results, right. And sometimes you have to make a change, even if it's challenging at first, even if it is beyond your comfort zone or expanding your comfort zone. And when you make that change, you're going to be a beginner again. And that can be very frustrating, right, and now you have to learn again, and you have to grow again. And that's the point at which habits hit roadblocks and bumps along the way before they start to stick. But if there's a few principles that tie into what Rita said, the first one is the importance of identifying training that aligns with your goals, right. If you are trying to build strength and physique, you're trying to improve your body composition, you're going to have to use resistance training, and you're going to have to progress over time progressive overload. A lot of bootcamp classes are cardio focused, they're high reps, there are a lot of movements perfectly fine for exercise, but not necessarily for training to build muscle. So you've got to pick the thing that works for you. And it doesn't mean you have to totally give up that other thing, you could definitely incorporate a mix of modalities. The second principle here is is building confidence in the gym, learning to navigate the gym like a commercial gym and perform exercises correctly have the right form and technique that can be extremely empowering, and then open up a world of more options. And for example, and I'm gonna plug our weights and weights physique University, we drop new programs every month, right? If you're in there, you get brand new programs every month, there's novice intermediate, physique, strength, female. And we do form checks. And the reason we do form checks is because there are a lot of people that join are not necessarily beginners, but they're switching to this different way of working out. And they're not super confident in, for example, how to do a squat or how to do a deadlift. And as soon as they post a video, and I take a look, usually there's some fundamental, major, you know, correction that needs to be made. But because they've shared that and been been vulnerable, in asking for feedback, they get the feedback, all of a sudden, they can fix it. Literally the next day, they fixed that. And they are they've gone from 20% skill to like 70% skill in one session, just from an online forum check and having a supportive community with some accountability. So building that gym confidence, men and women, right for men, it's probably like, learning how to do the movements I want to do for women, it's that but also getting over the gym intimidation, and like navigating and the etiquette of the gym, equipment, all that fun stuff affects men and women, of course, it's very important to, to kind of empower you to do that. I think Rita, I remember her going through that process. And then of course, you combine that with your nutrition, because if you're now training hard, you're building muscle. And now you combine that with this flexible nutrition approach. That's when the magic really happens because they support each other. And both start to accelerate toward, really, ultimately what you want. And read his journey is an example of how making these changes, even if they're initially uncomfortable, are the things that lead to the better results and overall satisfaction with your fitness journey. So question how you're working out today. And reach out to me on Instagram at weights and weights? If you have any questions about your training, because I could definitely point you to a previous episode or just straight up answer your question and whatever it is. Alright, the sixth surprise is how the more you fail, the more data you have and can transform even faster. So here I want to dive into a quote from Sean. And she said quote, for me, it's positive reframing. Let me repeat that, for me. It's positive reframing. It's easy to be negative if I don't reach a specific goal in a day, whether it's step count grams of protein. But it's one day out of many Philips constant reminder that it's still data that you're tracking, it's still momentum moving you forward. A positive mindset can make tomorrow's progress easier and better. And quote, This is so powerful. It's so powerful. I'm glad Shawn brought it up, because it ties in with what we've discussed already about consistency over perfection. But to get more specific, there's a few things that come up for me here. The first is how valuable tracking data is, but not obsessing over as we talked about with Wyatt. But just having data and measuring the things that you care about that represent the outcome you're trying to achieve. Even when you don't hit your target on a given day. Every day provides you that information about your habits and progress. And so to me, there's no such thing as a failure, right? Anytime you miss a target, that's just a data point says you've missed it and then you see what happens when you miss it. The other principle is again, looking at the big picture, right one day doesn't mean Take a break you It's the trend. So that's where seeing data day to day gives you peace of mind, when you see how it accumulates, like scale weight, right scale, a can go up two pounds, and it could go down two pounds, you know, you had extra carbs at dinner, you have some inflammation from your workout, whatever. And it's just waterway fluctuations. But when you have it day after day after day, and you see the trend over time, now you understand why it's important to collect that data. And then mindset is huge here, right? Because Shawn mentioned positive reframing. That's what we're doing here. We're saying, no, these aren't failures, these are data points like that, right, there is just a simple positive reframe. And when you can apply that to anything that hits your head is negative, any negative emotion that comes up, if you can reframe it, you're able to bounce back, able to be resilient. And that's what leads to consistency. Right? Don't beat yourself up over not hitting a daily goal, look at it as useful data, and a chance to learn and adjust. That leads to better adherence that leads to less stress. And that leads to better and faster results. Okay, the seventh and final surprise, is really my own surprise, but it is from all of you. And I'll explain in a second, how this show is changing lives well beyond the physical. Okay, our listeners, you have helped me evolve this show to what it is today. And we conducted a listener survey a few months back. And what struck me most about that was the real world impact of the show. Now I get messages from you guys all the time, not as many as I would like, I would love to have like dozens of messages a day from people saying how much the show affected them in some small way. And I know there's more of you out there than who actually reach out just based on how probabilities work in that sense. But I would just love to hear from you. But I have heard about you during the survey. And many of you reported that this show it's a way to significantly influence your approach to fitness to nutrition to health. Some of you mentioned, sharing advice from the show with your friends or family, or using the content on the show as a reference point for what you do every day with your decisions. And with your plans with your nutrition with your training. And this level of real world application. And implementation is something I never anticipated when I started the show in late 2021. Because at the time, I didn't even know if I could do a podcast, I didn't know if anybody would be listening or care. I didn't know if what I had to say was like unique enough. But seeing those results and hearing people even very recently, give me similar feedback that, hey, I love the fact that the weights and the weights come together that you talk about both training and nutrition and how they work together, not just one of those, and how you talk about being smart and efficient. So we can save time, and we're all busy and like it's flexible. Those are so powerful of reminding me that I have a responsibility. Now, as a content creator. This is not just for me. And that causes me to work harder to provide you with accurate, practical, impactful, but even like entertaining, interesting and unique information as well. Right? Because I don't want to just be like every other podcasts out there. Because then Why listen. So your feedback has helped improve the show. But it's also reinforced my belief in the importance of what we're doing of evidence based. And by evidence. I mean, yes, the science, but also our personal experience, experience through coaching. And you as an individual, your own personal N equals one experience, and also making it accessible because the podcast is free. So it's tons of free information with lots of how to do this, why this is like this. Here's what I believe about this. Here's my philosophy on this. And, you know, you take it and leave it you compare it to other things you listened to. But it's not just sharing information. Right? It's giving you something a nugget that empowers you to make meaningful change in your life. That is what I'm going for. Now, in that survey, just to close the circle, so to speak, you did provide me some suggestions of how I could serve you better. And so since that time, I've made a few changes. And I'm just going to cover a few of them here that directly addressed the biggest themes from the feedback. So the first one was, a lot of you thought there were too many episodes, and you wanted a little bit more variety in formats. I was doing five episodes a week. And I think for some of you that was overwhelming. It was clogging up your feed, you couldn't keep up. That is the last thing I want. I don't want you to think Oh, I gotta catch up with this huge library of information. So I reduced it from five to three. Each week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Monday, is a deep dive solo episode into a topic. And by the way, future Monday episodes in the near term are going to be based on a response to a post and An email I sent out to my community recently saying, hey, what's the biggest frustration you have? And I got a ton of responses, every single one of those is going to be its own topic on a Monday, well, maybe on a Wednesday to the Wednesday episodes are applying engineering principles from my 20 years plus as an engineer, to fitness, an angle that very few people are talking about if anyone out there, and I think it helps given you a different perspective. So that's Wednesday. And then Friday episodes are interviews, interviews with amazing guests who get better and better all the time. Most of those guests are people I want on the show who I reach out to because I follow them, and I respect them. And I think you will learn and and like them as well. So that's the first. The second one is you said you wanted more content that was specifically focused to a demographic or specific problems or situations because sometimes I can get a little bit broad, a little bit long winded. Today's episode may be a little longer, in fact, but, you know, I've recently pivoted from these long how to episodes, which will always be in the back catalogue, right? Like how to lose fat, how to build muscle, like I have these big long episodes. But I've started to niche it down, I guess niche it or narrow it down into specific topics, Peri and post menopause, fat loss, hard gaining over 50 training, cutting for the first time, being time efficient, et cetera, et cetera, right, very specific, so that you can really dive in on the things that interests you the most, and learn about that topic. And then the third bit of feedback I acted on is bringing on more targeted guests, not just any old fitness Pro. So lately, I've been bringing guests that have a specific area of expertise, gut health, anatomy, physique, competition, concurrent training, right, the list goes on. I've got a lot more amazing guests coming this year. And then also, you wanted to see some more case studies and real stories with clients, community members. And so I've done some of those as well. So I'm super excited about these changes, we've even got some new music, the episodes are generally a bit shorter, more around like 20 or 30 minutes, except for the interviews, which tend to be a little longer. And I'm going to continue evolving the show to better meet your needs. So episode 200 is just the beginning. Your engagement, you're listening, you're following your feedback you're sharing is helping shape the future of the show. And I'm so grateful for all of your input, and all of your support. Alright, now, last thing, this might surprise you, right? Because although the things I talked about today might seem obvious, or simple or intuitive, in hindsight, especially if you've heard them before, if you go back and you listen to any one of these, you realize that there's actually a profound shift in thinking that I wish more people had on this planet, like the vast majority of people that really don't quite have a clue about how to navigate nutrition or training, even if they kind of think they do because we take for granted conventional wisdom as well. You know, I've heard people say, well, everybody knows you need to do this. Well, now I don't even think that's true. I think there's misinformation, there's disinformation. And there's ignorance of information. Even once that addressed, you then have to implement the information. So it's really a whole spectrum. And everybody's at a different spot where their gap is. But what I talked about today, the surprises, the myths that I busted are really about how you think about this from mental perspective, right? Moving from restriction to fueling, embracing food freedom and not food rules, right? Being consistent. Don't worry about, you know, hitting your numbers all the time and being perfect about it. Realizing this can be simple, realizing you can have abundance, right, you can change your routine, and you can work out less and actually have more results. And these are not just minor tweaks, even though they could be simple. They are fundamental paradigm shifts, they are paradigm shifts that will change your life, they will change your life.

Philip Pape  33:54

And at the end of the day, all of this comes down to principles, applying principles, you know, that work in ways that work for you, experimenting rapidly and aggressively, to find out what stays in what stays out collecting the data tracking and measuring and continually learning and adjusting based on your results. So that you get the result you want as fast as possible. All right, as we move forward into the next 200 episodes and beyond. We are going to continue focusing on bringing you practical strategies that you can use to build your best physique, and live your best life. I want to thank each and every one of you has been on this journey with us whether you've been here since episode one, or this is your first time tuning in. You are indeed part of a thriving living, real community, real humans who I love to talk to. And we're all committed to smart evidence based approaches, efficient approaches to fitness and nutrition so that we can all get jacked now so that we can all feel great look great, and live our healthiest lives. I encourage you to reflect on these reflect on the surprise He says today, go back and review them. Go to the timestamp that resonates with you the most. And think about how it changed your approach moving forward, or reset your approach so that you can make progress. All right, if you found value in today's episode or in any of our first 200 episodes, I'd love to hear from you. Send me a direct message on Instagram at once and weights. And let me know your biggest takeaway or surprise from the show, the podcast so far, the whole show or just this episode, whatever you want, or you can send me a question or something that you're frustrated or confused about that you heard online or on another podcast. Again, I'm going to use that information and create better content for you and then help other listeners discover and learn from the show. Until next time, keep using your wits, lifting those weights and remember, just like we are 200 episodes in and continuing to improve. Your fitness journey is measured by gradual progress over time. It's not sexy, but it works. I'll talk to you next time here on the whips and weights podcast.

You Don’t Have to Choose Between Fat Loss and Strength (Breaking the 300 Pound Barrier) | Ep 199

Have you ever felt like you're stuck between conflicting fitness goals? Maybe you're trying to drop fat while increasing strength or lean out while building muscle. What if you didn't have to choose?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) jumps into a real conversation with Jazz, a powerlifter just eight weeks from competition struggling to break through a scale weight barrier without sacrificing performance. They discuss setting realistic goals, prioritizing what really matters, and crafting a plan that lets Jazz chase multiple objectives simultaneously.

Learn how periodizing your nutrition could be the game-changer you didn't know you needed.

Jazz Young, the guest on this episode, is a dedicated powerlifter preparing for his first competition. Facing the typical weight loss versus performance dilemma, Jazz sought Philip's expertise to navigate his nutrition and training. With Philip’s guidance, Jazz explores realistic and sustainable strategies to meet his dual goals, providing valuable insights for anyone in a similar situation.

Don’t miss out on the actionable advice on handling conflicting fitness goals shared in this episode.

📱Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:21 Jazz shares his goals and challenges
3:22 Discussing weight class expectations
6:30 Nutrition, meals, and body composition
10:30 Analyzing current nutrition and protein intake
14:18 Planning weight loss before competition
19:29 Conclusion and next steps for Jazz
22:04 Outro

Episode resources:

• Join the Facebook group and ask Jazz about his powerlifting!

Episode summary:

Can you successfully drop weight while maintaining muscle and strength? This episode of Wits and Weights explores this challenge through the journey of Jazz, a 300-pound powerlifter preparing for his first competition in just eight weeks. The episode dives deep into balancing conflicting fitness goals, setting realistic expectations, and discovering strategic middle ground with periodized nutrition. This episode is a must-listen for anyone juggling multiple fitness aspirations, whether you're an athlete or on a personal fitness journey.

The episode begins by addressing the common challenge of pursuing conflicting fitness goals, such as losing weight while maintaining strength, especially in powerlifting. Jazz, who is eight weeks away from his first competition, faces the dilemma of dropping weight without sacrificing muscle and strength. The host, Philip Pape, explores the importance of setting realistic goals, prioritizing key objectives, and uncovering a third option through periodized nutrition. This approach offers a strategic way to balance multiple fitness goals, providing insights that can apply to anyone facing similar challenges.

Nutrition is a cornerstone of any fitness plan, but it becomes even more critical when prepping for a competition. The episode dives into the essentials of maintaining consistent nutrition, setting achievable weight loss goals, and managing meal timing amidst a hectic lifestyle. Key topics include hitting high protein targets and incorporating practical meal strategies despite a busy schedule. Jazz shares his typical meal compositions, such as a protein-rich breakfast and dinner, and the challenges of hitting high protein targets. The conversation also addresses the importance of protein in managing hunger and its role in maintaining muscle during a cut.

The host emphasizes the need for realistic short-term goals, such as reaching 295 pounds, which balances the dual objectives of competing effectively and achieving a personal milestone of being under 300 pounds. Jazz's journey highlights the importance of periodized nutrition, a strategy that allows for a more flexible approach to achieving fitness goals. This method involves cycling through different phases of eating and training to optimize performance and recovery.

One of the critical insights from the episode is the importance of maintaining consistent nutrition leading up to the event. This includes avoiding drastic dietary changes and ensuring adequate energy intake. Jazz discusses the practicality of meal timing and the challenges of incorporating additional snacks or protein shakes despite a busy schedule. The goal is to ensure optimal performance while continuing to pursue gradual weight loss.

The episode also explores the intricacies of meal planning and protein intake for a competitive powerlifter aiming to balance weight loss and strength retention. Jazz shares his typical meal compositions, including a protein-rich breakfast and dinner, and the challenges of hitting high protein targets. The conversation shifts to strategic planning for an upcoming competition, considering whether to continue an aggressive weight cut or to maintain current weight to preserve strength.

Listeners are encouraged to take advantage of a free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment to uncover what's holding them back and create a three-step action plan for results in the next 90 days. By scheduling a call through the provided link, listeners can gain clarity and actionable steps without any sales pitches or mentions of coaching services. This personalized approach helps identify specific resources and actions to elevate progress.

In summary, this episode provides a comprehensive guide to balancing weight loss and strength retention, particularly for powerlifters. It emphasizes the importance of periodized nutrition, realistic goal setting, and strategic meal planning. Jazz's journey offers valuable insights and practical tips for anyone facing similar challenges. Whether you're a competitive athlete or someone on a personal fitness journey, this episode will help you navigate conflicting fitness goals and achieve your dual fitness aspirations.

Overall, this episode is packed with actionable tips and strategies for balancing weight loss and strength retention. Jazz's journey serves as a testament to the effectiveness of periodized nutrition and realistic goal setting. Listeners are encouraged to take advantage of the free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment to uncover what's holding them back and create a personalized action plan for the next 90 days. By following the insights and strategies discussed in this episode, anyone can unlock their full fitness potential and achieve their dual fitness goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:00

I ever feel like you're chasing two conflicting goals? Maybe you want to drop some fat but also increase your strength, or perhaps you're trying to lean out while building muscle. What if I told you that with the right approach, you don't always have to choose. In this episode, I'm pulling back the curtain on a recent conversation I had with jazz, a power lifter, just eight weeks out from competition, jazz was facing a dilemma I see all the time, how to break through a scale weight barrier to get a mental win without compromising his performance. We're diving into setting realistic goals, prioritizing what really matters, and creating a plan that allows you to pursue seemingly conflicting objectives, you'll learn why sometimes there's a third option you haven't considered, and how the secret may lie in periodizing your nutrition, whether you're a power lifter like jazz a weekend warrior, or just someone trying to balance multiple fitness goals, this Episode should give you the confidence to eliminate any frustration when you're being pulled in two different directions.

Philip Pape  01:11

Welcome to wits end weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, Philip pape, and today we're diving into a topic that resonates with so many of us, how to navigate seemingly conflicting fitness goals, hearing a recording of one of my free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessments, a 300 pound power lifter who's eight weeks out his very first competition, he is torn between losing more weight to get under 300 pounds, and maintaining his muscle and strength. Join the call, thinking that he had two options, and we uncovered a surprising third option. So you're trying to build muscle, lose fat, body recomp prep for an event more than one of these at the same time learn a smart and efficient way to do it all right? Jazz, what is going on? Man,

Jazz Young  02:03

hey, what's going on?

Philip Pape  02:06

you as well? No, like, in person, yeah, in person, virtually, in person. It's funny what we call in person these days, right? But Yes, exactly, even though you're a few hours down in Philly and I'm up here in Connecticut, you

Jazz Young  02:18

will meet someday, yeah, probably, I've been in Connecticut like

Philip Pape  02:21

once, yeah, yeah, cool. So, just so the listener knows what we're doing here, this is a 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment, something I just started doing recently. It's going to be fast paced. And the goal here is to help you figure out what's one thing you should prioritize, one thing holding you back, and then maybe a few steps that you can get results with in the short term. I do know a little bit about what's going on with you, but I'm going on with you, but I'm gonna assume that I don't. So first big question for you is, why did you reach out to me? What are you trying to get done here with when it comes to your nutrition, your big goal right now?

Jazz Young  02:52

So my big goal is maintaining strength. I'm about eight weeks out from my first powerlifting competition, so I do want to shut some pounds I don't have, necessarily. I did have a goal week, but I'm not necessarily going to hit that with the amount of time that I have. But I would like to come in a little lighter for this first beat, just to give myself a goal. But I also want to, you know, still hit some big lifts on the platform when I do go out there, so maintaining muscle and just literally, some body fat weight competition. Thanks,

Philip Pape  03:25

man. Congratulations. By the way, on the urge to do that of powerlifting me at all. It's great. And I've been following you, you know, been following you, and you're a strong guy. I mean, like, when we get in some numbers here, and people will see, like, You're a big, strong guy. So

Jazz Young  03:38

could see that for eight weeks out.

Philip Pape  03:41

If you don't mind sharing, how much do you weigh? What weight class are you in?

Jazz Young  03:44

So when I got on the scale recently, I was three, oh 1.6 so I float in between about 298, and 301 for the most part, like average weekly body weight. And what's the weight class? When I signed up, it was for 275 so that would be the weight class. Don't know if I'll get there, but I can always change it for my first meet, the first meet, I don't necessarily need a weight class. That's

Philip Pape  04:11

good. And that's exactly what I was trying to get at here, right? Because people are listening like, okay, they have a specific event. If they have, uh, you know, even if you want to have a wedding, and you're trying to get down to a certain number. It's realistic expectations, and also it's important to you, right? Is it getting nice, big numbers and feeling good and like getting through it and done, or is it, you know, trying to fine tune every little thing get into the weight class, right? Guessing it's the former.

Jazz Young  04:36

Yeah, I want to lose some weight, but I'm not really concerned about getting into the weight class. The first one is just to get the first one out the way, and then I'll be concentrated on weight class, and it's like after that. But I still want to, you know, continue on losing

Philip Pape  04:51

Okay, so we're talking 25 pounds maybe, maybe you can get there eight weeks. Does that come out to three pounds a week, which your size is like exactly 1% a week. That's if you did it every single week right up until the competition, as you know, may not be super helpful for getting the best performance possible. Yeah. Okay, so, because we can talk about things like, let me ask you, you got a tapering plan coming up for your training? You have, you're working with a coach right for the training side.

Jazz Young  05:21

Okay, yes.

Philip Pape  05:22

Have you thought about the nutrition beyond just what you've already been doing in terms of prep the week leading up to it, and the meat day itself?

Jazz Young  05:31

Not necessarily, like that far out, just mainly the nutrition leading up to it. I know probably about two weeks out, I'm trying to sit at wherever I wind up, week to two weeks out, just trying to hover there. So I don't, you know, do too much going into the competition. Yeah,

Philip Pape  05:50

for sure. And I'm a big fan of, like, leading up to anything, even if it's an endurance race like a marathon. Want to keep things as stable as possible. Don't change what you're eating. Insert any supplements, you know, add a whole bunch of fiber, because that can mess with your digestive tract. All that stuff at the same time. You also don't want to be like under fed and under energy that period. So there's, there's a shift that we could make right where you could do a little carb loading not too far ahead of the meat, like three days ahead of the meat, the carb loading could be as simple as swapping out some protein for some more carbs. No, doesn't have to be like again, not like a runner who has to just 10 grams per pound of carbs or whatever. So, so what is your current I'm getting ahead of myself here, as usual, but what is your current nutrition look like? And what is it that you're trying to figure out that maybe isn't working, or you're just not sure of going forward.

Jazz Young  06:44

So finally, is much protein I'm eating, like, I'll use back profector. And it's like, Hey, I picked high for the protein. So saying like 219 grams of protein, which is a lot of protein, even for a big guy like myself. So hitting that goal is kind of challenging for me, and my biggest thing is I like the snack, and then my work schedule is three to 11 o'clock at night, so sometimes I'll come home and still be hungry because I'm at work and tail end of the day. So

Philip Pape  07:22

your protein's 220 you feel like it's high, and that's about point seven grams per pound of body weight. But listening to doing the math, they're familiar with the range we say like point seven to one gram per pound. But add some nuance to target body weight. But not only that, also based on lean mass. Originally, it's based on lean mass. The bigger you are. It doesn't scale linearly, right? So you have any idea, like your body composition roughly

Jazz Young  07:50

a DEXA scan, but I don't know any in my area, so, and it's not

Philip Pape  07:56

super important right now. It's just like, if you had a rough number of body fat to muscle, you can kind of say, Okay, this is how much lean mass I have, therefore this is how much protein be appropriate. But we forget about all that. We don't need to overcomplicate it. The 220 it's funny, because any guy over 200 pounds, I'd be like, you want to eat 200 grams of protein, at least no matter who you are being. 320 doesn't sound super high to me, but from a practical perspective, saying that it's difficult get that in, right? Yeah, okay. What does your meal timing look like right now? Like, how many meals a day? They all have protein. What sources of protein

Jazz Young  08:35

I usually eat after I come from the gym, I'll eat like, some carbs, like rice cakes before I go to the gym, and just some Gatorade, because I wake up, like eight, nine o'clock, and I head straight to the gym pretty much. And then when I come home, I typically eat turkey bacon, some eggs, maybe a little cheese, some time to time, but, and that's usually like 12 o'clock, 12 to one o'clock, and then next time I'll eat will be at four o'clock, like an hour after my work, shit. And then like six dinner. So yeah, it's like dinner. So like four minutes, like a pre post workout,

Philip Pape  09:18

mid afternoon or late afternoon, and then dinner. Okay, have you tried? Have you tried? Or are you able to with your schedule, adding in another snack?

Jazz Young  09:27

A protein shake would be fun, but because I get home from the gym at like, 12 o'clock, I eat, and then I leave at two and I'm not really hungry, and then taking protein powder to work isn't like the most convenient thing for me, so I've done that before, but I don't have, like, my blender and stuff that I have at home instead of just shaking it out.

Carol  09:51

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency, but from the very beginning, Philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self confidence. What sets Philip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philippa.

Philip Pape  10:32

All right, cool. No. And again, we don't have to shoehorn it into like meal frequency. I just always ask that question, because some people have an opportunity on the table to just get an extra meal in. Maybe it's earlier in the maybe it's in the morning, maybe it's later at night, but not too close to bedtime. So you told me like your post workout has freaky baking, eggs,

Jazz Young  10:50

cheese. How much fat are you getting in your diet? Roughly about, okay, macro factor, it was probably about anywhere from 80 to 100 grams, roughly that what you're actually getting. That's your target. What target is?

Philip Pape  11:07

Okay? What are you actually consuming based on your log, based on my log, probably about 80. Oh, okay, so that's reasonable, all right, because when I heard turkey bacon, eggs, cheese, I'm thinking, Okay, you have some room to maybe clean out some of the foods to get more protein and less fat, and then it's the same amount of food. You know, doesn't sound like too much of that's going on when you have lunch. When you have dinner, these, you know, meats and vegetables and some starch, for the most part, they

Jazz Young  11:31

look like, yeah, so the first meal is usually like some stir fry steak with rice, and then my last meal is usually just like a protein and a veggie. Okay,

Philip Pape  11:46

yeah, love this stir fry, steak. Man, make me hungry. Yeah, stuff,

Jazz Young  11:51

it's my go to No. That's

Philip Pape  11:54

great. I love it. And the fat sounds reasonable. So when you say the protein's high at 220 are you actually hitting that number, and it's just like, feels like enforcing it you're

Jazz Young  12:03

not hitting the number. I plug in my this my lunch and what I'm gonna eat for dinner, like the protein source, that's the first thing. I plug in, the macro factor. It'll have me at like, one. And I'm like, Oh, I still got 70 more to go, and I'll get the yogurts, like, Greek yogurt, the oikos, yeah, would you like 15 grams? But I can't eat four of them. A Destiny piece.

Philip Pape  12:33

You know, it's funny, I have that same breath, oh, it goes zero, right? And you put it in a bowl, and you're like, I'm up to, like, 150 grams. I'm up to 200 grams, and that's only, like 150 Cal. 50 calories, a pretty good protein, dense source of food there. But yeah, you're right. It kind of fills you up. You're saying you're not really hitting 220 right? No, no,

Jazz Young  12:52

I'm probably getting closer to about where from 170 to 190 Okay, some days I do get the protein, but it's few and far between.

Philip Pape  13:05

All right, did you say earlier, you you're getting hungry, some hunger, yeah, towards

Jazz Young  13:10

towards the end of the of my work shift, okay, I'll eat my last meal at about six, seven o'clock. Yeah.

Philip Pape  13:17

Protein could definitely help with hunger, right? But, before we get to that, do you have your gold macro factor currently set to lose at a

Jazz Young  13:25

certain rate, like two pounds a week? Yeah, it's two pounds a week.

Philip Pape  13:29

Two pounds a week, all right, so you know for a fact that that rate you're not going to hit the 275 unless you plan to do some water manipulation. You don't plan on that do Okay, good. You shouldn't do that at a year level, doing your fifth competition, maybe

Jazz Young  13:44

you look into that. That's for another competition. Yeah, exactly.

Philip Pape  13:48

So you resigned to that of not hitting the weight class, or is part of this conversation, like, Hey, can I speed it up more aggressively and hold on to my strength and muscle

Jazz Young  13:59

a little bit of both? Okay? Like, maybe speed it up a little bit. Like, main thing is just, I don't want to lose the strength going into the competition. Strength is fine, but if I don't get to the weight class, I'm resigned with fine with that, even my coaches, like, we shouldn't really press for that right now. So okay, and

Philip Pape  14:20

you're nowhere near to getting what's the next weight class? 275, would

Jazz Young  14:24

be the next the weight class I signed up for? No, I mean, up. Oh, up. Go eat. Okay, all right, yeah,

Philip Pape  14:31

yeah. Because I mean, where I'm coming at this, and you tell me, if I'm wrong, it's like, got your short term goal, and you've got your long term goal. I imagine your long term goal has some health goals in there, and some, you know, body composition goals, and we could talk about that, you know, to get to the 90 days past the competition up to the next year, that's a different thing. The short term, you're pretty much not going to make the weight class at this point, unless you go 1.2% a week straight on for the next six weeks, like a very aggressive cut, you're going to just feel terrible and then, like, your lifts are gonna drop and all that. Why not just toss that out the window altogether right now and just maintain, okay, maintain, like, get off the cut all together, right? And maintain your weight. Since you're still you're not close to the next weight class, and at risk of that, you could keep those glycogen stores filled, like, you know, up your carbs have more calories to work with, which will make it easier to hit your protein lift should, like, keep going up. I would imagine clean there's only upside to doing it that way. You're kind of, if you're not going to hit the lower weight class, why even that trade off? Yeah,

Jazz Young  15:35

and I was thinking that too, yeah. But sometimes we just need somebody else to confirm it for us. Okay,

Philip Pape  15:43

I should just ask you this. Why do you want to lose some weight before that?

Jazz Young  15:46

It's just a goal. Like, if I didn't get the 275 like I said, I was our rooms on that, but if I can get the 290 and sit there, I'm perfectly fine with that too. But let's

Philip Pape  15:59

dig in a little bit. Why is that the goal now, knowing that you have another goal in parallel, of smasher lifts on a power lifting me,

Jazz Young  16:07

I've been over 300 pounds for a long time, so, okay, under 300 pounds and competing in the power lift in me compared to where I started, would be fantastic.

Philip Pape  16:17

Okay, all right, I like it. I'm glad I asked. So that's cool, if you want to be like, the guy who's you kind of accomplish these two goals at the same time, and you could be super proud of that, right? And shout to the world, like, Hey, I got under 300 and I competed, and I got these massive numbers on my list. They're sitting right over 300 so why don't we make the goal? Like, 295, okay, you know, or two. You know what I'm saying? Like, just the psychological break, right? Like it's trade offs. It's all trade offs. You know that there's a trade off with everything. So, yeah, if the goal is 295 you can do that in the next, like, two or three weeks, easy, right? And at the rate you're already going, you should be there within a few weeks. Yeah, right, assuming you've been pretty consistent hitting the calories, yeah.

Jazz Young  17:00

So these last couple weeks, I've just been kind of hovering at cracking so much, but just making sure I stayed around the 300 pound mark. So these last eight weeks, I definitely want to start tracking so I can get to sub 300 since you

Philip Pape  17:17

kind of know what your maintenance is, just what calories right now,

Jazz Young  17:22

I think like 3500 rocky could

Philip Pape  17:26

see that. Okay, 3500 makes sense. What's your step count daily? Ish, 1000 steps. Oh, so you get a lot of steps? Okay, cool, yeah, I walk around a lot at work. That's great. That's really good, really listening. That's awesome. What jazz is doing here,

Jazz Young  17:40

all this job, so I make myself walk around the shop and

Philip Pape  17:44

stuff like that. Awesome. So 500 calories could then go into 1000 calorie deficit would get you. 1000 calorie deficit would get you two pounds a week. You could eat around 2500 calories for a couple weeks. Kind of feel it to you, okay, yeah. And then get in there around 298 297 and kind of decide, okay, I can push to 295 I mean, what happen is, when you get back out of that cut, gonna pop up a bit back because of the fluid. You want to get a little extra buffer there. And that leaves you a good five, six weeks to get back to maintenance and just stay there, get filled up, hit the lifts and everything. The only other thing that comes to mind is, are you doing a test day before then, like a test or anything like that?

Jazz Young  18:33

I thought I know of I would have to check my coaching and see what He has planned. But he typically doesn't do that. He wants all your energy on the meat day. I

Philip Pape  18:45

got it you were, I would say you could have an opportunity to do like a meat nutrition test day as well. I mean, I have to overcomplicate it, like, do what you normally do leading up to it, the carbs a few days ahead of time, a bit then, no, do your pre workout like you normally would, which is a, you know, sounds like you do the rice cakes and the protein, you probably want a bigger meal a few hours before the meat, versus what you normally do when going to the gym. And then the rice cakes. Take some fruit, take energy bars, Powerade, whatever you're kind of used to to getting really simple carbs, right? Not complex carbs. You don't want too much fat, too much complex or too much fiber early on, on that day, right? This is a separate thing we could talk about that offline, like, later and change too much, like, don't start taking a new supplement or anything like that. That can throw you off. Here's the plan, right? Step one, do a cut at two to three pounds a week for the next few weeks. Step two, go back to maintenance, right? And then step three, plan for, like, the pre meat nutrition to kind of fill up those glycogen stores. And then after that, we could talk about, okay, what is your long term plan? Now,

Jazz Young  19:55

get jacked. No plan, okay, yeah, yeah. I want to be, uh, big and strong but just in a smaller package. You

Philip Pape  20:03

know, it's gonna work really well for you, man, because you are a big guy with a ton of muscle who's super strong. So I bet there's a lot under there to, like, really reveal it to people. No, I'm just trying to reveal it. Yeah, we're skinny guys like me. We never quite pushed it that hard to get up there. It's like, up and down type of thing.

Jazz Young  20:18

So do you think that sounds good? Okay, yeah, I think it sounds good. And focusing in after the competition is definitely gonna be the best thing for me, because I don't plan on competing for a while after that, so I have all of the winner. And you know, to focus on getting down to the next bodyweight goal

Philip Pape  20:41

for sure, man. And you know how to reach me for that, we definitely should talk and map it out for you, because I think it achieved some great things, man, for sure.

Jazz Young  20:48

Yeah, I think so too, yeah. I think so too,

Philip Pape  20:51

yeah. All right. So I mean, I mean, there you go. That's, I know we went a little longer than 15 minutes, but I helped you get through the mental roadblock of between two different goals, right?

Jazz Young  21:00

Yes, yes, definitely. Like I said, sometimes I had it in the back of my head, like, maybe you should just change the goal to something like 290 or something like that. But sometimes we need somebody else to tell us, hey, you should do this. Well, I was thinking that so

Philip Pape  21:16

exactly, and I would just think of it as like, one quick goal. You get done. Now you're back to your main goal, and you get that done, and you're good

Jazz Young  21:24

seeing what you did with Jeremy and how he did it in phases. Oh, yeah. Jerry. Bonanno, yeah, Jerry, I said, Jeremy. Jerry, sorry,

Philip Pape  21:31

I've done that to him too. Yeah. Sorry, sorry, Jerry, sorry, Jerry, but yeah, I've

Jazz Young  21:36

done that. And I'm like, oh, can do this, do the competition, still hit my goal on some of the lifts that I want to hit, and then focus on the next phase after that. Awesome,

Philip Pape  21:49

man. Well, get it done and reach out to me if you have any questions along the way. Like, like I said, this is just to help people and see the how it kind of changes perspective, and it's gonna be a lot of fun.

Jazz Young  22:01

Yeah, yeah. I'm looking forward to it. I'm excited.

Philip Pape  22:04

I hope you enjoyed that conversation with jazz to us a recording of a 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment. These are free calls that I give all the time. I always have a few spots every week in my calendar. I encourage you, if you are looking for a little bit of assistance, to uncover the one thing that is holding you back and come up with a quick three step action plan, get results in the next 90 days ahead, and use the link in my show notes to schedule that with me. Won't bite, as you could tell from today's call. I just ask you some questions. We figure it out together. They give you some actions. I don't sell anything. I don't even mention my coaching, and you leave with a little bit of of clarity, actually, a lot of clarity and some next steps to take. And then from that, you can always go further and talk about specific resources and actions you can take to put those to the next level. So, if you want to schedule that free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment, use the link in my show notes, or go to witsweets.com, click the top right, and I will talk to you next time here on the wits, and waits podcast.

Avoid Joint Pain and Tendonitis to Lift Weights Forever (Fatigue Failure) | Ep 198

Are you pushing yourself to the limit in the gym, chasing PRs, but worried about the toll it's taking on your joints and tendons (knees, elbows, shoulders)?

What if there was a way to keep making progress without risking nagging injuries?

Discover how the engineering principle of Fatigue Failure can help you avoid injuries like tendonitis, bursitis, and tendon tears to keep you lifting for years to come.

We'll break down:

• Why your tendons behave like materials in engineering

• The four stages of fatigue failure and how they apply to your training

• Practical strategies to prevent overloading and allow for proper recovery

• How to monitor for early signs of tendon fatigue before it's too late

• The mindset shift from "pushing through pain" to "designing for longevity"

Learn how to find the sweet spot between progress and injury prevention, ensuring you can continue to lift weights and make gains well into the future.

You'll learn strategies to protect your joints and tendons while still making consistent progress in the gym.

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

Episode summary:

Have you ever wondered how the principles of engineering can enhance your strength training and tendon health? Our latest podcast episode dives deep into this intriguing concept, offering a unique perspective on preventing injuries and optimizing performance through smart training practices.

The episode kicks off with an exploration of fatigue failure, an engineering principle that explains how materials break under repeated stress. Interestingly, our tendons follow the same rules. The host explains that understanding fatigue failure could be the key to preventing nagging injuries and ensuring longevity in your strength training journey. If you're someone who loves to lift, especially heavy, this episode could save your tendons and your progress.

The discussion then delves into the components of fatigue failure: cyclic stress, crack initiation, crack propagation, and final failure. Each of these stages has a direct application to your tendons during strength training. For instance, cyclic stress in engineering refers to repeated loading and unloading cycles. In strength training, every rep of a heavy lift is a cycle of stress on our tendons. This cyclic stress can lead to microtrauma, which, if not properly managed, can accumulate and result in serious injuries like tendonitis or ruptures.

Proper recovery is crucial to prevent these microtears from accumulating. The episode emphasizes the balance between training intensity and recovery, introducing the concept of the fatigue limit or endurance limit. This is the stress level below which failure will not occur, no matter how many times the load is applied. For our tendons, this translates to finding the sweet spot of training intensity and volume that allows for progress without risking injury.

Practical strategies are offered to help lifters maintain tendon health and continuous progress. One key strategy is to prevent overloading. While progressive overload is essential for growth, it should be approached smartly. This means not necessarily going for a one-rep max every session but cycling through different lifts and varying the intensity. Another strategy is allowing for adequate recovery. Just like materials need rest periods between stress cycles, our bodies need rest between heavy lifting sessions. This could mean incorporating strategic deload weeks or simply ensuring you get enough rest between workouts.

Monitoring for signs of fatigue is another critical aspect. Paying attention to your body’s signals, like a slight twinge in your elbow or a click in your shoulder, can help detect early signs of fatigue. These early warnings should not be ignored, as they can indicate impending tendon issues. Regular maintenance and repair, such as proper nutrition, hydration, stretching, and even physical therapy, are also vital for tendon health.

The episode also touches on the importance of adopting varied programming approaches to prevent injuries. This includes modifying training routines, optimizing nutrition, and considering different types of workouts. Listening to your body and sharing these insights with workout partners who might be pushing too hard is encouraged.

The host stresses that tendon pain or injuries should not be seen as failures or setbacks but as valuable data points that tell us something about our training design. Addressing the root cause of these issues, rather than just the symptoms, is crucial for long-term success. This mindset shift from pushing through pain to designing your body for longevity is essential.

As we wrap up, the episode reminds us that our tendons are like the materials engineers work with—they have limits. Understanding these limits doesn't restrict progress; it allows for an optimized approach that balances intensity and recovery. This balance ensures continuous improvement without breaking down.

In summary, this podcast episode offers a wealth of actionable advice to help you achieve long-term success in fitness while maintaining your health. From understanding fatigue failure and cyclic stress to practical strategies for recovery and maintenance, the insights shared are invaluable for anyone serious about strength training. Follow the podcast for more tips and always prioritize smart design and feedback in your training practices.

Join us for a journey that unites evidence-based strategies with the goal of attaining your dream physique safely. Your tendons will thank you, and your progress will be more sustainable than ever.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:01

If you're like me, you love to get new PRs, you love to crush those lifts, continue making progress session after session. But lately there's been a nagging pain in your elbow, maybe your shoulder, maybe your knee. You brush it off, thinking that's just part of the process, but what if I told you that ignoring these signs could lead to a catastrophic injury? There's an engineering principle called fatigue failure that explains why materials break under repeated stress and guess what? Your tendons follow the same rules. Today, we're diving into how understanding fatigue failure could be the key to preventing nagging injuries and ensuring longevity in your strength training journey. If you're someone who loves to lift, and especially loves to lift heavy, this episode could save your tendons and your progress. Let's engineer a better approach to tendon health.

Philip Pape: 1:00

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're exploring the engineering concept of fatigue failure. This episode is about keeping your tendons healthy and your lifts progressing. We're gonna break down the components of fatigue failure and see how they directly apply to your tendons during strength training so that you can keep showing up session after session for years and enjoy the process. And, as always, if you're enjoying the show, if you want more content like this that applies these concepts to your fitness, your health, your nutrition, hit the follow button right now. If you're not already following the show, if you just downloaded this one episode for the first time, take a look at the back catalog, subscribe, follow if you like the episode, so that you get notified of future episodes. And right now, when it comes to Apple and Spotify, that's one of the best ways that others can find the show. So go ahead and hit follow and let's jump right into today's episode.

Philip Pape: 2:07

I wanna start by breaking down what fatigue failure actually means in engineering, and then we're gonna quickly apply that to your training. In simple terms, it is the weakening of a material due to repeatedly applied loads. Now, this doesn't happen all at once. It's a gradual process that occurs in stages, and that's where things get interesting for us as lifters, because our body is physical system that includes these special tissue called tendons, and this is really where this process applies. So the four components of fatigue failure in engineering are cyclic stress, crack initiation, crack propagation and final failure. So let's break it down. The first one is cyclic stress. Now, in engineering this refers to repeated loading and unloading cycles In strength training.

Philip Pape: 3:01

Every rep of a heavy lift so every rep of a bench press, let's say, or a squat, is a cycle of stress on our tendons. I want you to think about those heavy singles in that lift, right? That heavy deadlift, that heavy overhead press. Each one is putting significant stress on your tendons, your tendons. The second component is crack initiation In materials. This is where tiny cracks form at stress points. Now, for our tendons, this is the microtrauma that occurs with each heavy lift. It's totally normal, right? This is when you hear about muscles breaking down and experiencing micro tears. This is normal, it's part of the adaptation process. But you have to understand that this is one of the steps along the way.

Philip Pape: 3:47

The third one is crack propagation. This is where those initial tiny cracks grow larger under continued stress. Now in our tendons, this is what happens when we don't allow for proper recovery. Those micro tears start to accumulate and grow. Recovery those micro tears start to accumulate and grow and that leads us to final failure In engineering.

Philip Pape: 4:08

This is where the material can no longer support the load and then it breaks. For our tendons, this is when a major injury can occur, like tendonitis or, unfortunately, what I had, which was a rotator cuff tear, a tendon rupture. Now here's where it gets really interesting, because in engineering there's a concept called fatigue limit or endurance limit, and this is the stress level below which the failure will not occur, no matter how many times the load is applied. So, for our tendons, think of this as the sweet spot of training intensity and volume right, your stimulus that allows for progress but without risking injury. And you might have heard of concepts like stimulus to fatigue. You might have heard of the fitness curve, stress, recovery, adaptation. They all kind of play on this principle of finding balance between the intensity side, where you're actually doing something physical and putting the load on your body, and the recovery side, which, let's be honest, many of us do not pay as much attention to or give enough credence to pay as much attention to or give enough credence to.

Philip Pape: 5:14

So if we want to apply this knowledge practically to our training, I'm going to give you a few strategies here that I think are helpful. The first one is we want to prevent overloading. Now you might say, well, don't you talk about progressive overload all the time? Well, progressive overload is a misnomer. We're not actually overloading. We're simply loading up to an appropriate stress to cause an adaptation. So just as engineers design structures like bridges and buildings to avoid excessive cyclic loading, we need to be careful with our training loads.

Philip Pape: 5:46

But it does mean being smart about progressive overload and thinking about things like okay, I'm not gonna necessarily go for a one RM every session or I'm gonna cycle through different lifts as I test my one RMs, like in, for example, the Westside method. Or instead of hitting one RMs, I'm gonna do doubles, triples, triples or even fives. Still hit it hard, still get close to failure, but it's not that high end. You know 90%, 95% of my maximum load. So there's there's ways to kind of balance this out and I've experienced myself with my shoulder rehab that when I really push for singles or doubles, there's a lot of stress on the tendon. I know it's there. Or doubles, there's a lot of stress on the tendon, I know it's there. I can hear some of the grinding. I get some of the pain if I overdo it and that's my body telling me that those are probably not appropriate for me. If you're still in a healthy state, you haven't gone through that yet. It's good to be proactive and get ahead of that. So preventing overloading just by balancing the intensity is a good strategy.

Philip Pape: 6:55

The second strategy is, of course, allow for recovery. In engineering, materials need rest periods between these stress cycles. For us this means adequate rest between your heavy lifting sessions. That's it. That's really what it means. It also means strategic deloads right Using deload weeks where necessary. Now, a deload isn't let me just take the week off A deload is okay. If I normally train four days a week, maybe I'm still going to go in four days, but I'm going to drop a little bit of the intensity and cut out some sets or exercises to reduce the volume. Or maybe it means I'm going to go from four days normally down to just two days this week and sort of compress into some smaller full body sessions, something like that, where you're basically giving yourself a chance to, you know, fully heal up and recover before you get back to the next cycle of, say, six weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks, whatever.

Philip Pape: 7:48

The third principle here, or strategy, is to monitor for signs of fatigue, is to monitor for signs of fatigue. So if you listen to my episode about experimentation and prototyping, you know engineers use non-destructive testing to detect early signs of fatigue. So they do things that don't push the material to their limit but still push them enough to kind of get data. So, for us lifters, this means paying attention to our bodies. Okay, I don't know if you hear my my dog's barking, but they're paying attention to something. Anyway, paying attention to our bodies, right, that slight twinge in your elbow, that little bit of a spring when you do your bench press and it gets to that one part of the bench press, you know what I'm talking about. That little bit of a click in your shoulder, that little bit of a crack in your knee, right, don't ignore those. Sometimes they're okay, sometimes they're early warning signs of, you know, impending tendon issues. I've gotten very in tune with that with my shoulder, and you may be familiar with that as well, but we don't want to push through that and push to the full fatigue point, right.

Philip Pape: 8:52

And then number four is maintenance and repair. So, just like structures undergo regular maintenance, we need to take care of our tendons. What does that mean? This means proper nutrition, so not always being in a fat loss phase and not always cutting, especially if you're having some pain, if you're having some fatigue, if you're pushing it really hard. If you're trying to build muscle, you need to be fully fueled up, have enough calories, enough energy, enough carbs to support your tendons. You know, when I get into a period where I need to do some extra rehab, I decide to go into a maintenance phase so that nutrition is out of the equation. This means staying hydrated.

Philip Pape: 9:29

This means, if you need to loosen up a bit, if you need to do some stretching before jumping into a movement, do it right. Some of us, you know we got the really tight shoulders or elbows. We're trying to do a back squat, like a low bar back squat, and you're just not able to get in there fully in one shot. So you can stretch into it right, get under the bar and just kind of stretch to that point where it becomes uncomfortable back off. Do it again back off and sort of ease into it just like any other stretching work. And you may decide to incorporate regular periods of, say, five or 10 minutes of stretching a certain body part to keep it limber and loose, and it's perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with that. Things like massage, right Physical therapy all those may be in the cards for you, depending on what state you're in. So prevent overload, allow for recovery, monitor for signs of fatigue by paying attention to your body and give yourself some love in the nutrition and the stress and the other parts of your life. So here's a thought that might shift your perspective right.

Philip Pape: 10:30

In engineering, fatigue failure is not a flaw. It's actually a natural process that has to be accounted for when you design the part or design the product. What if we approach our training the same way? Instead of seeing tendon pain or injuries as failures or setbacks, we view them as valuable data points. They are telling us something about our design, right? When I hear people say, well, I got a cortisone shot for this, or I got some, you know, I took some meds or some rest and they're not addressing the actual root cause, that's a red flag, right, because you haven't fixed the design. You're actually putting a band-aid on the situation. Sometimes a cortisone shot can relieve a symptom that allows you to improve the design. Or if the design was correct and you're applying it in a context that has pain or inflammation, even a good design can fail right. So there's context and nuance here.

Philip Pape: 11:30

But when you look at your training and your recovery strategies, and then especially your form and technique. Those are the things that are part of your design right and listening to your body signals and adjusting those things so that, when you're healthy, you're not exacerbating and furthering the injury You're, you're getting back to the root cause and fixing it. That's a very nice place to be and this is a mindset shift from you know, pushing through pain to I'm designing my body for longevity. I'm designing it for longevity. And when you're 20, when you're 25, your body's so resilient you don't notice these things. They will start to accumulate. So get ahead of it as early as you can.

Philip Pape: 12:09

It really isn't about lifting the heaviest possible weight all the time, right, but finding the optimal balance of that intensity and that stress and recovery that allows for continuously improving without you breaking down. All right. So as we wrap up, remember this your tendons, your tendons are like the materials engineers work with. Right, they have limits. They have limits. They're physical materials, they're mechanical materials. But when you understand the limits, it doesn't mean you restrict your progress. It means you can optimize your approach for those.

Philip Pape: 12:44

So, when you're looking at your training session right now, when you're thinking about how you're training, how are you going to go to the gym tomorrow and next week, whether it's a three-day full body, a four-day split, a six-day bodybuilding program. Ask yourself, am I designing for just pushing it all out, to get short-term PRs, or am I designing to continue making progress, get strong, get jacked, get swole, but also have long-term durability right? It's not mutually exclusive. I mean pushing all out all the time is, but I'm saying getting the result is not exclusive with getting durability right. Am I listening to the early warning signs or am I pushing until something breaks? And that's where applying the concept of fatigue failure to your training is a very smart way to go.

Philip Pape: 13:29

All right, if you found value in today's episode, as always, do me a favor and share it with a lifting buddy who's been pushing a little too hard, or who loves to hit PRs all the time, or that guy or that woman who talks about their shoulder, their knee, their elbow right, and let them know about this episode and just to think about it a little bit differently. And of course, they could always reach out to talk specifics. I'm happy to talk about modifications for their training, food, other approaches, other types of programming and so on. And then again, don't forget to hit follow if you haven't already, because your support helps us reach more people. Until next time, keep using your wits, keep lifting those weights and remember, in training as in engineering, sustainability. And remember, in training as in engineering sustainability, longevity is about smart design and listening to the feedback and the data. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

Your Very First Cut (Lose 10-30 Pounds of Fat) | Ep 197

Do you want to lose 10-30 pounds of fat without sacrificing muscle or energy? Do you know the common pitfalls that derail fat loss and how to avoid them? Are you ready to learn the smarter, more efficient approach to your first cut?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) dives into a smarter and more efficient approach to help you achieve your first successful cut, losing 10 to 30 pounds of fat without drastic measures. He breaks down the process of cutting body fat, addressing common concerns such as calorie counting and training adjustments. Philip also outlines the frequent mistakes many make during their first cut, including unrealistic expectations. He shares essential principles and a step-by-step guide for sustainable fat loss.

Tune in to learn how to navigate this journey and unlock the physique you've been working hard to reveal.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:40 Mistakes to avoid during your first cut
8:37 Principles for successful and sustainable fat loss
18:00 Step-by-step guide to implementing a successful cut
26:00 Fast-Track Fat Loss Cohort
26:42 Outro

Episode resources:

• Get your FREE guide, Nutrition 101 for Body Composition, to master your macros and calorie intake for fat loss, muscle gain, and better health, including workout nutrition for performance and recovery and a long-lasting approach WITHOUT depriving yourself of foods you love.

• Related episodes: 

  • Everything You Need to Know About Fat Loss (Simple Strategies for a Fitter, Leaner Body)

  • My Stair-Step Fat Loss Process to Get Lean and Ripped

  • My 3 New Dieting Methods for Smarter, Easier Fat Loss in 2024

  • Why Macros Might Be All You Need to Streamline Your Nutrition

  • Spend 70% of Your Time Doing THIS for a Faster Physique Transformation (Rapid Prototyping)

Episode summary:

What if you could transform your body without resorting to crash diets or grueling cardio sessions? This episode uncovers the secrets to efficient fat loss and muscle retention. This episode is your guide through your first cut, helping you shed 10 to 30 pounds of fat while preserving every ounce of hard-earned muscle. Extreme dieting and endless cardio are not only unnecessary but counterproductive. Discover sustainable, balanced strategies that ensure your long-term success and well-being.

Flexible dieting is more than just a trend; it's a game-changer. This episode unfolds how you can hit your macros without depriving yourself of your favorite foods. Learn the nuances of managing hunger—whether it's physical or emotional—and get top tips for meal timing and incorporating nutrient-dense vegetables. Patience is your best friend in this journey, and the episode explains why a slow and steady approach beats quick fixes every time, helping you build habits that last a lifetime.

The episode starts by exploring smarter, more efficient ways to execute your first cut and lose 10 to 30 pounds of fat while preserving muscle and strength. Common pitfalls such as crash dieting, cardio overkill, and food restriction are addressed, emphasizing sustainable approaches instead. The importance of avoiding rapid calorie slashing to prevent muscle loss and rebound weight gain is discussed, along with the drawbacks of excessive cardio, which can interfere with recovery and lower metabolism. Cutting out entire food groups or subsisting on so-called "clean" foods is discouraged, advocating for balanced, maintainable eating habits. The goal is to guide you through a successful fat loss phase without sacrificing your well-being or long-term results.

The next segment focuses on the principles of flexible dieting and realistic expectations for fat loss and muscle building. No food should be off-limits, and hitting macros, enjoying a variety of foods, and listening to your body’s signals are key points. Strategies to manage hunger during fat loss are discussed, including identifying whether it's physical or emotional, and tips like adjusting meal timing and incorporating more vegetables. The importance of patience and realistic expectations is stressed, arguing that a slow and steady approach to fat loss is more sustainable and effective in the long run, avoiding the pitfalls of extreme diets and quick fixes.

Building sustainable fat loss habits is the focus of the following segment. Setting a calorie target, balancing macronutrients, and maintaining high protein intake with moderate fats are emphasized. Individual metabolism and body size can affect carb intake, often resulting in lower carbs without following a strict low-carb diet. Adapting training and recovery to suit fat loss goals, incorporating strategic cardio, and making data-driven adjustments for sustainable progress are key points. Patience, consistency, and learning through the process are highlighted, along with the value of community support. The journey is about personal growth, building better relationships with food, and understanding how to fuel the body effectively.

The episode concludes with a focus on achieving long-term fitness success. The common issue of failing to maintain fitness results due to a lack of accountability and support is addressed. Joining Physique University can place you in the successful five percent who achieve their fitness goals. With an emphasis on using intelligence and strength training, making your first cut just the beginning of a more efficient approach to improving your body composition, mind, and overall physique is discussed.

To dive deeper into the main topics, the episode transcript offers valuable insights. In the 'Efficient Fat Loss and Muscle Retention' segment, the importance of avoiding crash diets, cardio overkill, and food restriction is highlighted. The drawbacks of these approaches and the benefits of sustainable strategies are discussed. The transcript emphasizes the need for gradual calorie reduction, maintaining high protein intake, and focusing on strength training to preserve muscle mass.

In the 'Flexible Dieting and Realistic Expectations' segment, the principles of flexible dieting are explored. No food should be off-limits, and hitting macros while enjoying a variety of foods is emphasized. Managing hunger, both physical and emotional, is discussed, along with tips for meal timing and incorporating vegetables. Patience and realistic expectations are key, as a slow and steady approach to fat loss is more sustainable and effective.

The 'Building Sustainable Fat Loss Habits' segment focuses on setting a calorie target, balancing macronutrients, and maintaining high protein intake. Adapting training and recovery to suit fat loss goals, incorporating strategic cardio, and making data-driven adjustments for continuous progress are key points. The importance of patience, consistency, and community support is highlighted, emphasizing the journey of personal growth and building better relationships with food.

The episode wraps up with a focus on achieving long-term fitness success. The importance of accountability and support in maintaining fitness results is discussed. Joining Physique University is recommended for personalized guidance and achieving long-term success in fitness goals.

This episode of Wits and Weights provides a comprehensive guide to sustainable fat loss and muscle retention. By avoiding extreme measures and adopting balanced, maintainable strategies, you can achieve long-term success in your fitness journey. Flexible dieting, realistic expectations, and building sustainable habits are key principles that can transform your approach to fat loss and muscle retention. Whether you're just starting o

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✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:01

You've been training to build strength and muscle. But now you're ready to reveal that harder and physique. The problem is you've never successfully and permanently cut body fat before. And now you're looking to lose anywhere from 10 to 30 pounds. What if I told you there's a smarter, more efficient way to approach your first cut, other than what most people do, that actually preserves muscle and strength. It keeps your energy high and it doesn't require you to cut carbs, live off chicken and broccoli or ramp up your cardio. Today, you'll learn exactly that so you can execute your fat loss phase successfully, the first time.

Philip Pape  00:42

Welcome to Whitson weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique.

Philip Pape  00:50

I'm your host, Philip pape, and today we're discussing how to execute your very first cut, and lose 10 to 30 pounds of fat. Now, the process of dropping body fat is not that hard to understand. But the actual implementation is what usually holds people up. First are the basic questions. How many calories? How fast do I lose weight? How much protein? What about carbs? What about my training and cardio? But where people run into a wall is not just with the information? It's with all the what ifs for their personal situation? And their individual response? What are the mistakes people make? Why do cuts fail? And how can you be successful. And that's exactly what we're exploring in today's episode, your very first cut, lose 10 to 30 pounds of fat. Now if you want a detailed guide to help you set up your next cut and dial in your nutrition, I've got a free nutrition for body composition guide that gives you details on numbers like calories and macros, with sections on hydration supplements, how to eat and more, it's really a nice complement to today's episode that can help you follow along and fill in all those details. So to get your free copy, just click the link in the show notes. Or go to Whitson weights.com/free. You know, set yourself up for success here by downloading my free guide. It's for body composition nutrition, downloaded by clicking the link in the show notes or going to Whitson weights.com/free Alright, so today, we are covering three sections. First of all the mistakes people usually make during their first cut. This is what often holds people up and why people fail not only to properly complete the cut, but to maintain the results, then we're gonna go over some smart, efficient approaches to cutting body fat without sacrificing muscle or sanity. And then finally, I'll give you a step by step guide to implementing this approach for your own successful cut. So we're going to kick things off with what are the problems most people face when attempting their first cut. And after years of helping people and lots and lots of clients and listeners go through this process? I've definitely seen some common pitfalls come up over and over and over again. And I'm going to simplify them here into the top five that I think are most common. So the first one is this whole idea of a crash diet, a quick fix, or I just need to get the results, I'm going to do it fast, I'm going to slash my calories dramatically to get the results. Because on one hand, yes, energy balance is a thing. When you burn or when you consume fewer calories than you burn, you're going to lose weight. But when you do it too quickly, although it leads to rapid weight loss, a good chunk of that is muscle. Right. So this is this is like rule number one when it comes to dieting or fat loss is not doing it too quickly, because of the potential for muscle loss. But not not only that, also the hunger, the irritability, and then the inevitable rebound that happens that leads to what we call yo yo dieting. And even if you don't think you're necessarily prone to that, think of all the times you've tried to lose fat and maybe not maintain the results. Or you've gone on a quote unquote, diet. Maybe it's keto carnivore or something else. And it's a temporary situation. And then you're done with a fat loss phase. And then you go back to eating how you were before and gain the weight back. All of that's kind of tied into this crash diet trap that people find themselves in. So the antidote to that, of course is going to be not going to quickly we're going to get into that. But that's the first one. The second mistake people make is cardio overkill, right chronic cardio, you might have heard it called because there's this persistent myth not sure why it's still out there, that these endless hours of cardio are the key to fat loss. And I hear it in the language and people say well, I'm going to in a fat loss phase, so therefore I'm going to ramp up my cardio or ramp up even my even steps even walking. And I am a big fan of Addy movement where it makes sense and it's sustainable, and it will help but too much. Not only can be unsustainable, it can backfire because it can possibly interfere with your recovery. It can add stress and it causes your body sometimes to compensate and actually lower your metabolism and then all of This ties into the first one of okay, you're going too fast, you've got too much stress in your body. Now you're exacerbating that. And it's just a recipe for disaster, hunger, all the things poor sleep, and then you're done. Like, you don't want to finish the fat loss phase. So, too much cardio can be a problem, there's a strategic way to incorporate cardio. The third pitfall is food restriction. Now, this is somewhat tied to the first one of, of going too quickly. But in this case, I'm specifically talking about cutting out foods or entire food groups, or trying to subsist on what you think of as clean foods only. It's like your diet foods, it's like when I'm in a diet, I eat this or I cut these things out. And then when I'm not I go back, that is the opposite of sustainable, right? Not only that, it's it's pretty miserable. And let's be honest, to do that in any context, it can also lead to nutrient deficiencies, and it throws off your macro balance, it just makes it harder, rather than easier, which is kind of counterintuitive. But it really is. I like to think of it this way, a diet is very simple to understand, right? You eat this, you eat that. But then when you put it into practice, you realize that in your individual situation, it doesn't work at all, because the things they're telling you to cut are things that you would otherwise like to eat. And again, that is not sustainable. So food restriction, no, you know, reducing calories, yes, we're going to reduce calories, we're going to do it in a smart way and still have foods that you enjoy. The next pitfall is on the strength training side, basically neglecting your strength training, or not doing it properly to hold on to that strength and muscle. Some folks or a lot of folks think they need to switch to high rep low rep, sorry, high rep, low weight training during a cut, when in reality, keeping the load or the intensity high. Keeping that stimulus high is actually one of the most important factors for holding on to your muscle mass. And it really comes down to are you training close to failure? Are you training hard, it doesn't preclude you going to a higher rep type of program like a bodybuilding program. But by definition, you don't need to switch up your training entirely, you can usually continue doing the exact same thing, if the recovery is okay. So that's the fourth pitfall. And then the finally, is up here between your years is the impatience and the unrealistic expectations, okay. And that kind of all ties into an adherence and consistency and maybe even motivation, where you think you can lose more than you really can in a certain period. Right. And that leads you to go too quickly number, the first pitfall. And so you have these unrealistic expectations, like I need, I need, I need to lose 30 pounds, and I'm going to do it in two months, right or something like that. And then when it doesn't start to happen fast enough, you get impatient. Whereas the opposite of, of coming up with a very reasonable, moderate rate of loss where you may, you may lose half of what you thought you can lose in that period. But you can go week after week, and keep executing, and you can have your social events, and you can enjoy your foods. And it ties in to all the other pitfalls we talked about overcoming and now you end up losing a bunch of weight that you wouldn't have been able to lose otherwise. Because because of the impatience and the unrealistic expectations, right? You don't want to go too aggressive, overall with your approach, and harm yourself in the process mentally and physically. So what happens when you have any one or combination of these mistakes? That's where we have our failed cuts. That's where we have our yo yo dieting. That's where we have muscle loss, and ultimately, frustration. All right, so those are the classic big mistakes people make. Now I'm going to talk about principles that will help you be successful. And you're going to notice that these principles are often a an antidote to the pitfalls. So the first one is gradual calorie reduction, right, instead of slashing calories, massively, or cutting or whatever, or cutting lots of foods out so that you can cut calories significantly, we're going to create a moderate deficit that allows for steady fat loss while preserving muscle. Now outside of the scope of this episode, there are recent episodes I've done on my stairstep fat loss process, and also three new ways to do a dieting phase, which are basically nonlinear diets. And those are other creative ways to go at different moderate deficits for you, that help you get through the process because ultimately, the thing that's going to make you successful is can you stick with it to eventually get that result. Alright, so gradual calorie reduction. Next, we're going to focus on protein, right Protein Protein Protein, keeping that protein high, and I say high but in reality, it's balanced, but it's high compared to the general population. Most people are very underfed on protein, you are aiming for a much higher level more in that. We're going to talk about the numbers but it's point seven to one gram per pound of your target, excuse me of your target body weight, keeping that Protein high is going to preserve your muscle mass during the cut. The next principle is maintaining your strength. Now I put it that way on purpose because there's nothing you can do about how much muscle you maintain. In other words, you can't directly influence that. But indirectly, by thinking in terms of strength, in other words, pushing your progressive overload in the gym, pushing, getting more reps or more weight, even though you're in fat loss and mentally going after it that way is going to put you in the regime where you're you got, you have that signal to your body that it has to hold on to muscle, what you may find in reality is that as you're losing weight, let's say you've lost 510 pounds, and all of a sudden, maybe you miss a rep, right, or maybe you can't go up in weight, but you got the same reps or the same weight as last time, well, the fact you have five or 10 pounds lighter, and pushing the same weight as last time than you were five or 10 pounds heavier, means you're actually stronger in relative terms, right. And I don't know if what order the episodes are coming out. But I did an episode about scaling laws, where like, you have to think of relative strength, not just absolute strength. And when you're losing weight, the relative strength is important. Keep in mind from a mental perspective, because we're emphasizing, maintaining that strength, which then maintains that muscle. Alright, so the next principle is strategic cardio, which again, you see how these align with the other pitfalls I talked about. So instead of this, like I just need to be on the endless treadmill, you know, metaphorical treadmill, it could be running, it could be, it could be biking, it could be whatever. Instead of that, we're going to use cardio strategically. And the way I would do this is number one, incorporate walks, where they're enjoyable, you can use some habit stacking, like listening to a podcast while you walk something like that. Or if you've got a treadmill and you want to watch Netflix, or do some work while you walk, things like that you do it strategically if you're trying to add some activity, but you can also make your existing cardio a little bit harder. So you know, burn a little bit more calories, and take more advantage of the time you have but without pushing it. So this would be for example, going on an incline when you walk instead of flat, or adding a rucksack, right or hopping on a an assault bike that you've never done before. And now it's going to probably burn more calories because you're not you're kind of clumsy at it, you kind of inefficient at it. So these are strategic ways incorporate cardio. Having said that, if you enjoy these activities, any form of cardio and want to include it throughout your week, as long as you don't overdo it and it doesn't overcome your lifting in terms of quantity, then you're probably fine. Just got to listen to your body and listen to your recovery.

Philip Pape  12:40

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I've noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wit's end weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest cleanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape  14:00

The next one is flexible dieting. So this one goes hand in hand with the food restriction. In this case, we are saying no food is off limits, right? We're focused on hitting our macros, enjoying a variety of foods, and listening to our body. Now that listening to our body part gets a little bit wonky, because people are like, What do you mean? Well, very simply, I would say hunger is going to be the big one. And then things like digestion, right? And just generally how you feel after eating things are going to be the other drivers. So during fat loss, if you're hitting all your macros, but you're still hungry, then you then you ask yourself, Okay, am I hungry? Because it's normal physical hunger because I'm losing fat in which case, I can reframe it as a positive like, Hey, I've got some hunger. Pretty cool. That means I'm losing fat. Let me go get a glass of water, go do some activity, whatever, or is it emotional hunger, which is a whole whole different situation that we have to analyze as well and it's okay to have both. And both can have different solutions, right like replacing a sweet tooth cream Been with fruit, or adding lots of veggies to your lunch and dinner to fill you up, or switching around your meal timing. So that, you know, your body doesn't think you've got this long stretch where you're just not eating, and now you get hungry. Because the calories are low. There's a lot of clever things we can do. There's no one right approach. But that's the part of the flexibility. It's the flexibility with food, but also how you arrange that food within your day to day. And then finally, of course, we have the antidote of impatience and unrealistic expectations is realistic expectations and patience, right? The long game is actually the fastest path. I've said that before. But I want to reiterate here, because like, just like the tortoise and hare right, slow and steady, when it comes to fat loss will definitely help you get through it. Because even if you ultimately don't lose as much as you want it to in a certain period, you're probably going to lose a lot more than you would have if you were impatient and try to go after it quickly. And our brains have a hard time reconciling that. But all you have to do is look to your past look to those times when you did a diet and either gave up, or you binge, or you lost a bunch of weight, and then you went back and quickly gained it back. Right? And I don't so I don't want you to say that, Oh, keto worked for me because I lost 40 pounds, and then you gained 50 pounds back, okay, then keto didn't work for you. But if you lost 40 pounds over, say twice as long of a period, and then now you're able to maintain the results, you know what your maintenance calories look like, you can kind of hold on to that physique for a while, ah, then you've done it, okay. And I fell into this trap many, many times, I went through many diets, some weird ones, I didn't even have names for where I'd have these small lists of strange foods that I put together, that I was basically just cutting a ton of calories by limiting my palette. And I was miserable, and I lose a bunch of weight, I lose a bunch of muscle. And then of course, I'm done and say, okay, thank God, now I can go back to what I was eating before, where's the pizza, right. And that is not what we're trying to do. So those of you thinking, I just need to cut carbs, oh, I just need to go on carnivore, I see it in my lifting communities, where kind of the advice that gets thrown around often is like, you just got to eat clean for a while, you just gotta cut this, this this and shake my head. And, you know, I hesitate to jump in and offer advice to people who don't want it. But I see that. And I'm thinking that's that's how people get into trouble. And for those of you who've reached out to me or like helped me out, because I don't want to do it that way, you find that you don't have to do it that way. So this approach allows you to lose fat, to maintain muscle to keep your energy levels stable. And here's the thing to enjoy the process. Like it's a process of growth, and mental and physical evolution. It's learning about yourself and learning what can actually work just like when you're lifting weights, okay, don't think of these as as, as distinct processes. They're all processes of growth, having a growth mindset, learning about yourself and not suffering through. Right, not thinking that this is a punishment, or a short term, terrible extreme situation I have to put myself through, it doesn't have to be that way. Alright, so we talked about common mistakes, and common principles, right. For this last segment, I'm just going to break this down into some basic steps that you can take to implement this approach. And of course, if you want more details, this is where you definitely want to reach out and check out some of my other content, because I break things down for different areas. You can't learn this on the day necessarily, but you can definitely understand the overall process pretty quickly. Alright, so step one is to establish your baseline. Well, how did you do that? Okay, when you're lifting weights, how do you establish your baseline for your squat? Well, you kind of test out your squat. On day one, you're pretty clumsy, you don't have very good form, you keep it light. And you learn a little bit about your technique. Okay, next day you go in, you're a little more confident, maybe add a little bit more weight, you get a little bit better technique. Basically, you go for a few weeks, maybe two to three weeks, right? And by the end of two or three weeks, you've got a pretty decent squat, assuming you've had some feedback, right? A coach form checks, whatever. And you kind of know where your baseline is, in terms of strength. Well, same thing with your diet and your body. If you can spend two to three weeks tracking your food, tracking your weight, and then you can kind of figure out how many calories is my body actually burning? Right? And I talked all about this in the macros are all you need episode. That might have been last week actually, and I talked about using macro factor to do this. But there's a lot of ways you can do it. You need to understand your baseline by tracking and measuring. Step two is now you can set your calorie target. And this is where you would say okay, I want to go into fat loss. And so forget about what target you want. Think about what rate of loss is sustainable, and let that determine what target you can hit when it's a different way than most people think most people put it the other way around, like I have to lose 20 pounds, and then they come up with a plan based on that and the plan ends up being not right for them. So set your calorie target for something like half a percent of your body weight a week, which for a lot of people is going to be about a pound a week, or a 500 calorie deficit a day. Like that's a really good ballpark for a lot of people. If you're bigger, if you have a lot more muscle, if you've done this before, you might be able to push it to pound and a half or up to two pounds. But that tends to be more on the aggressive side. I've rarely rarely had clients above that. But I've often had clients below the pound per week because of their metabolism, because their metabolism isn't that high. Because remember, whatever deficit you set, and the calories that results in for you to eat, you've got to look at that number and say, Can I eat this way day after day after day? For like 12 or 16 weeks or potentially longer, right? And if the answer is no, then it's too aggressive. Or you need a more creative approach, like shifting your calories around cycling, nonlinear dieting, all of that well beyond the scope of this episode. But that's how we make it sustainable. Then step three is is focusing on your macros, right, so you've got a calorie target, within that calorie target, you're going to keep the protein pretty high, the fats pretty moderate, say around 20 to 30% of your calories. And then the rest are carbs. Depending on your calorie level, this will probably result in a moderate to lower amount of carbs during fat loss. And for some of you smaller females or even smaller males who have a lower metabolism. This could result in fairly low carbs. And we're not doing a low carb diet. We're not doing keto, we're not doing this any anything intentionally like that. But we are trying to keep the protein high in the fats moderate, and it may result in fairly low carbs or fat loss. And it may look almost like a low carb diet in that sense. And so that's one of the trade offs we make. Alright, so you know what your baseline is, right? We know what our deficit is, we've got our macro set. What about training, I've mentioned it already, plan your training to just be the same. And if recovery starts to become an issue, or if you're always trying to push PRs, that may not be appropriate for fat loss, you may need to go to something different, moderate the volume, moderate the days per week, right. And then along with that as the strategic cardio, like we talked about before, and then all you're going to do is track and adjust, track and adjust. And this is where rapid prototyping comes into play. Another another principle I talked about on a recent episode, I look it up rapid prototyping, go to my catalog, you'll see only one episode with that term. And this really is about experimenting with yourself as you go along. Because whatever plan you had on day one, by day two, or by week two, it may need change. So that you can continue making sustainable progress. It's data driven adjustments. This is where having an accountability partner. Having a coach having a community is massive, it's a huge game changer. Because those people can look over your shoulder and say, Hey, did you do this? And how do you feel? And is this working for you. And if not, here are some ideas. Lastly, of course, be can be patient and consistent. And plan for your cut to last anywhere from eight to 16 weeks, on average, eight to 16 weeks. So if you know your rate of loss, and you assume eight to 16 weeks, because beyond that, it just gets kind of miserable. And I wouldn't recommend being in fat loss longer than that at any one time. Just do the math. And you can kind of tell the ballpark where you're going to end up with at a target weight. And you can reverse engineer that and say, Okay, now how many times I need to do that over the next say year to really get closer to where I want to be. So I think this is this whole episode is really all encompassing, it's a very sound blueprint, I didn't dive into too much of the weeds because I don't want to overwhelm you today. But you know, it's like when you build a house, and you find out that the lumber just went up in price, your wife actually wants a bigger laundry room, or the trusses you ordered have a vaulted ceiling that you didn't expect. Yeah, true story. Just like all of these unexpected things that might come up your fat loss journey is going to start popping up these little surprises along the way, based on your metabolism, your recovery, how you respond to training, and all of these things that you're going to need to adjust to. And that's a totally normal part of the process, right? If you return to this episode, and you just remind yourself of the mistakes people make, and the principles to adhere to. And then the steps, all of those can be applied to your situation and you're going to be successful. And then that brings me to the big reveal. All right, the real success of your cut is not about the pounds lost or the muscle revealed. It is about what you're going to learn through this process. I'm such a huge advocate of this being a process of personal growth. It's not about losing fat, it's building a better relationship with the things that nourish you the things that your body interacts with. It's doing hard things, but enjoying what comes out of doing those hard things and them not being suffering or painful. It's learning to listen to and roll with your body. Right? Understand how different foods affect your energy and performance. You're gonna learn all of that by taking this methodical approach. It's methodical, but it's highly adept. optimal, you notice I didn't tell you exactly what to do, I gave you a blueprint, right? So that you can build those skills, you can build the habits, and learn how to fuel your body properly, how to balance this enjoyment of it, but also the progress where you're pushing, and you're doing hard things, and then make adjustments based on data. And that's the power of this approach, right, not just changing your body, but changing your mind, building the confidence to know how this stuff actually works. And then you'll be able to maintain the results. And that is what less than 5% of people actually are able to do. So if you're still tempted by cutting carbs by food programs, like optive, via by weight loss, drugs, or some other extreme approach, remember this sustainable enjoyable progress beats short term miserable results every time, your very first cut, or your very first cut done right is an opportunity to learn and build something that lasts. And if you're consistent, if you're patient, if you're willing to learn, you'll become a more informed, capable individual. Okay, if you found value in what I shared with you today, and you're ready to take your fat loss to the next level, I want to invite you to check out Whitson weights physique university, that is our comprehensive semi private coaching program, where you get personalized guidance, accountability, to help you achieve your dream physique. And as this episode comes out, we just launched the Fast Track fat loss cohort, it's a private group within WWE within the university. And it's a way to save 15% off the normal price while getting even more personalized attention. To accelerate your fat loss phase, such as one on one calls personalized feedback on your data and so on. So that you can commit to the process, over 95% of people fail to maintain the results. And it's usually due to a lack of accountability and support. That is it. And if you want to be in the 5% of those who do succeed, I think it's a no brainer to join physique University, especially for what it costs. So to learn more, click the link in the show notes, or head over to Whitson weights.com/physique. Again, click the link in the show notes or head over to Whitson weights.com/physique. Until next time, keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember that your first cut is just the start of a smarter, more efficient way to improve your body, your body composition, your mind and your physique. I'll talk to you next time. You're on the wits and weights podcast

Why You Can't Stop Eating (How to Break Food Addiction) with Dr. Judson Brewer | Ep 196

Are those late-night cravings for ice cream sabotaging your fitness goals? Do you struggle to tell the difference between real hunger and emotional eating? Have you ever wondered if there's a way to manage cravings without relying on willpower alone?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) sits down with Dr. Judson Brewer, a renowned neuroscientist from Brown University, to unlock the secrets of conquering food cravings and building healthier eating habits. Philip and Dr. Jud dive into real-life examples and actionable steps to help you transform your relationship with food. From distinguishing between true hunger and emotional cravings to embracing mindfulness and self-compassion, this episode is packed with valuable tools to support your fitness journey.

Dr. Judson Brewer is the director of Research and Innovation at the Mindfulness Center and a professor at Brown University. He is a leading expert in mindfulness training for addictions and has developed innovative treatments for smoking, emotional eating, and anxiety. During their conversation, Dr. Jud shares insights from his groundbreaking research on the neuroscience of cravings and practical strategies to break free from unhealthy eating patterns.

Tune in and learn how to change your brain's response to food, manage food cravings, and align your eating habits with your fitness goals.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:12 Dr. Jud's experience with cravings and ineffective willpower
4:26 The difference between emotional and physical hunger
8:01 The role of the food industry in shaping eating habits
12:49 How to rewire your brain and manage cravings
18:20 His stance on tracking your nutrition
19:26 The impact of societal pressures on eating habits
21:29 Techniques for recognizing and addressing true hunger
33:14 Adjusting your top-down model for better food choices
42:54 Questions from the community
48:48 Finding satisfying and healthy food alternatives
54:28 Reprogramming your reaction to hunger
56:40 The question Dr. Jud wished Philip had asked
58:54 Where to find more resources from Dr. Jud
59:25 Outro

Episode resources:

• Dr. Jud’s Website: drjud.com

Episode summary:

Philip Pape sits down with Dr. Judson Brewer to delve into the complex world of food cravings. Dr. Brewer, an expert in mindfulness training for addictions, provides invaluable insights into the science behind our eating habits and offers practical strategies to manage them. This episode is a must-listen for anyone struggling with emotional eating or unhealthy food cravings.

The episode kicks off with Dr. Brewer sharing his personal battles with cravings, particularly for ice cream and gummy worms. This sets the stage for a broader discussion on the difference between emotional and physical hunger. Emotional hunger, or hedonic hunger, is driven by emotional states rather than actual caloric needs. Dr. Brewer explains that understanding this distinction is crucial for addressing unhealthy eating behaviors.

Reinforcement learning, a concept deeply rooted in neuroscience, plays a significant role in how we develop and sustain food cravings. This learning mechanism, which helped our ancestors survive by remembering food sources and avoiding danger, is now being exploited by modern food environments. Dr. Brewer emphasizes that traditional methods like willpower and restrictive diets often fail because they do not address the root causes of these behaviors.

Marketing tactics by fast food giants like McDonald's and Taco Bell are another focal point of the episode. These companies have mastered the art of associating their products with positive emotions and convenience, making it challenging to break free from these habits. Dr. Brewer highlights the need for a deeper understanding of reward-based learning to counter these manipulative strategies.

Societal biases and judgments related to body image also come under scrutiny. The episode discusses the importance of building resilience against these pressures and shifting the focus towards self-care and compassion. Dr. Brewer provides practical advice on differentiating between hedonic and homeostatic hunger, urging listeners to ask themselves, "Am I actually hungry?" This simple question can be a powerful tool in managing food cravings.

Mindful eating is another key topic discussed in the episode. By paying attention to hunger and fullness cues, we can avoid overeating and reduce the appeal of unhealthy foods. Dr. Brewer explains how mindful eating can change our perception of food, making less healthy options less appealing over time. This approach aligns our eating habits with our fitness goals without relying on willpower.

The episode also explores how early experiences and parental responses can shape lifelong eating habits. Dr. Brewer discusses the challenges of changing ingrained behaviors in adulthood and offers strategies to overcome them. By fostering curiosity and incremental exposure, we can rewire our top-down model to accept and even enjoy previously disliked foods.

Curiosity and flexibility are recurring themes throughout the episode. Dr. Brewer encourages listeners to question their behaviors and allow themselves to learn from past experiences. By building a "disenchantment database," we can facilitate long-term change and make healthier choices effortlessly.

In summary, this episode of Wits and Weights provides a comprehensive look at the science of food cravings and offers actionable advice for managing them. Dr. Judson Brewer's expertise in mindfulness training for addictions sheds light on the complex interplay between our brains and our eating habits. Whether you're battling late-night snacking or stress eating, this episode offers a path to freedom that doesn't rely on restrictive dieting or endless cardio.

Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of your own mind and discover practical strategies to break free from unhealthy eating habits. By embracing mindfulness and curiosity, you can transform your eating habits and achieve long-term success in your fitness and nutrition journey.

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:01

You probably found yourself mindlessly reaching for that extra slice of pizza? Binge watching another episode when you should be sleeping, or reflexively checking your phone for the 100th time today. Even if you've put in the work at the gym, those pesky food cravings are sabotaging your efforts to build that lean strong physique. You're after you've hit your macros for the day, but that pint of ice cream in the freezer is calling your name. You know, these habits aren't serving you or your health, but breaking free from them seems nearly impossible. What if I told you that the key to conquering these cravings isn't more willpower or a stricter diet, but understanding the inner workings of your own mind. In today's episode, we're sitting down with a neuroscientist who's cracked the code on why we get hooked on foods and how we can break free whether you're battling late night snacking, stress eating, or any other food related habit that's hindering your physique goals. My guests groundbreaking research offers a path to freedom that doesn't rely on restrictive dieting, or endless cardio. Today, you'll learn science back strategies to rewire your brain, break bad eating habits and take control of your nutrition once and for all, so that your eating habits and fitness goals are better aligned.

Philip Pape  01:09

Welcome to Whitson weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, Philip pape, and today we have a very special guest joining us, Dr. Judson Brewer. Dr. Brewer is the Director of Research and Innovation at the mindfulness center, and professor at Brown University's School of Public Health and Medical School. He's an internationally recognized expert in mindfulness training for addictions, and has developed groundbreaking app based treatments for smoking, emotional eating, and anxiety. He's also the author of several popular books, including The hunger habit, why we eat when we're not hungry, and how to stop. Today, we'll be discussing strategies that actually work for managing food cravings and breaking poor eating habits, all backed by cutting edge neuroscience, this is often the missing piece, if you're looking to optimize your nutrition for your health and physique goals. Dr. Brewer or should I say Judd, welcome to the show.

Dr. Judson Brewer  02:03

Thanks for having me. So, Judd,

Philip Pape  02:05

I first heard you on or not first heard you, but I heard you again on the hidden brain recently, and then I reached out to you could come on the show. And then I got a chance to read your book, The Hunger habit. And there's this powerful moment in the book. And I think you mentioned on the show as well, a light bulb moment when you were working with patients struggling with binge eating. Can you start by painting a picture of a particular instance, from your own life? Perhaps involving ice cream or gummy worms? Where you found yourself, you know, in front of the pantry or fridge, you're grappling with a craving? You know, what was that inner battle? Like? Because I think so many of us can relate to that. And then what would you have tried back then that we now know maybe isn't so effective? Yeah.

Dr. Judson Brewer  02:44

Well, I could do it. I mean, back in high school, I had a very strict diet, because I was trying to optimize my athletic performance, I needed all the help that I could get. And, you know, offseason. So I would need any basically no processed sugar, you know, and just really healthy, clean diet. And offseason, no, just the ice cream would call to me. And so I'd find myself, you know, galloping through a half gallon of ice cream. Fast forward to I think it was cheese, grad school residency, I think, when gummy worms were kind of my siren song where they would just call me and there was nothing I could do, I was totally under their control. So I'd eat, you know, whatever bag of gummy worms no matter how big it was, I would have it, you know, I'd eat the whole thing in one sitting because I knew at least they would be out of the house. Until of course, I bought the next bagger somebody gave me some. And so, you know, willpower, you know, a lot of discipline for all sorts of things, you know, from, you know, athletic training, to getting into medical school to completing a PhD and all that. But it didn't seem to apply when it came to gummy worms. So that's where, you know, ironically, I started practicing what I was researching, I found that it worked pretty well for me.

Philip Pape  04:09

Yeah, I can identify with that. Back in college, I had a convenience store right around from my dorm, like literally in the building. And they had Sour Patch Kids or something like that, you know, and it's like, you have one bag of those. And every day you get a habit of just having having another bag like it just have to have it. And listeners can relate to that so much. So that brings up the idea then of the emotional versus physical hunger, or I think you call it he Donek hunger, how you know, emotional states drive people to eat. Maybe let's start there. Because people are wondering, how do I even distinguish that? Where do I even start? Before I then go down the rabbit hole of what to do about it?

Dr. Judson Brewer  04:44

I think that's a great place to start you as a neuroscientist. I think it's generally very helpful for us to understand how our brains work, and we don't need to know it down to the synapse level. But it is helpful to know some of these general frameworks and one of the most basic frameworks that is evolutionarily conserved all the way back to the sea slug is this process called reinforcement learning. And it helped our ancestors survive before we had, you know, ready availability of food. And both in terms of learning where food sources were, but also learning where danger was. So they could, you know, go get more food and avoid danger is basically get lunch and not become lunch is the way that I think of it. And so that is described as homeostatic hunger. And the reason it's called that, you know, that fancy term homeostasis just means it's trying to keep us in balance. So when our stomach is empty, we're out of balance, and our body kicks into gear, dopamine fires and says, go get some food. Well, it actually starts back with learning dopamine firing when we learn where a new food source is. So if there's something surprising that they say, oh, there's food over there, then that Oh, signals dopamine to fire. And we actually laid on a memory that says, hey, remember this, remember where this food sources, and then that dopamine firing shifts from that Oh, surprise, because it's no longer surprising to, Hey, get out of the cave and go get the food when we're hungry. So we get back, you know, when we're out of balance, it says, Go get back and get balance. So that's homeostatic hunger. hedonic hunger was coined probably within the last 20 years. And it was coined as a response to what researchers were finding, which is that people are eating a whole lot, not when they're hungry, not when their stomach is empty, not when their body is saying that it needs calories. But when they're out of balance in a different way, emotionally. And they coined, it's a misnomer, actually, because it's called hedonic hunger, meaning eating because of emotion. But it's a misnomer, because we're not actually hungry. We're just eating because there's a, the urge to eat. And that urge says go eat. But often, you know, bringing this back to when I first started working with patients with binge eating and or disorder around this, they couldn't tell the difference between when they were actually hungry, or when they just had an urge to eat, because they had learned that, you know, when they felt sad, they could eat as a way to distract themselves when they were celebrating something they could eat, you know, as a way to reinforce that process. So they were mixing up this homeostatic mechanism of this reinforcement learning, where they were learning to reinforce behaviors, such as making themselves feel better through food, rather than filling their, you know, filling their calorie deficits,

Philip Pape  07:42

so to speak. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, we hear that often how something we've evolved that was beneficial in the wild under a different environment. Now we have this, you know, modern food environment, that is up plenty. And like you said, it's not really hunger, right? It's filling a gap, or having an urge, or there's some chemical link that forms out of habit. And again, we're gonna get to what do we do about it in a second, but I want to tie that concept to the environment, since I did just mention that the modern food environment, the food industry, which is not just their happenstance, there's a lot of design and intent behind it. And I'm not gonna call them villains or anything, they're doing what they do to make money, and it is what it is. But it makes food very addictive, right? It taps into that exact thing you talked about, which I assume is a reward system. When you mentioned dopamine, it sounds like to me, maybe tell us about that. We're not using it so much as an excuse, as we want to be aware of this and be aware of even the manipulations that might be going on. And so we can make better choices around that. Right.

Dr. Judson Brewer  08:41

And I like the way you framed that this isn't about vilifying an industry, that either because this is really about just how humanity has been conditioned through capitalism, to say, hey, you know, making money is a good thing. And so if we had been conditioned as a society to say, hey, public health is the ultimate greatest good, we probably wouldn't be in this predicament because people would be designing food to optimally deliver nutrition, and not optimally addict us. So that will eat more. So the idea of, you know, if it's a growth industry, if it's, you know, a consumer model, so to speak, where you get people to consume to make profit, then people are going to be conditioned to try to get people to eat as much as possible, because they'll get you know, the revenue will come in the margins will be higher, and they'll ultimately, you know, help their stakeholders who will then feel like they are momentarily fulfilled because the stock price goes up and then we can see how that becomes a vicious cycle itself. We can talk about that later where, you know, that's ultimately this meeting the same, the same process. That's not actually helping people be healthier or happier, but we're just stuck in and because we don't know any way out As a society, so it's not society's fault, it was, you know, it was set up, you know, way, way, way long time ago. So with that as a backdrop, if you put yourself in the perspective of a company that's trying to maximize profits or increase its, you know, its growth so that it can, you know, meet its projections and then get have its stock go up, then they're going to do everything they can to learn about how our brains work, so that they can tap into these learning mechanisms to get us to consume. And so and Michael Moss, I think, wrote a beautiful book over 10 years ago now, around how the food industry, you know, it's peeling back the curtain, this exposition on the food industry, and all the different ways that the food industry has been doing this for decades. You know, you can think back to 1963. When was it Lay's potato chips came out with the big candy? Just one, right? Because we're designing it that way. So you know, they put it in our face, that they're they're doing all this stuff to make food addictive, whether it's a bliss point, which is a perfect, you know, mix of sugar, salt and fat to banishing caloric density, which is exactly what it sounds like, we're, like, think of any puff type thing. You know, like a Cheetos or whatever, where it melts in your mouth, in your body says, Did I just eat something? I don't think so. Because it's gone. I should eat another thing. You know, and so we get all these calories in, but our brain is like, but it's supposed to I have to I'm supposed to to it right? Because that's what that's what natural does. So that's the backdrop against, you know, against with, we're working. I'm not saying that properly. But that's what we're up against. Let's put it that way. And just to kind of name how explicit it is. RJR Nabisco. So RJ Reynolds merged at some point with Nabisco. Right, RJ Reynolds, a tobacco company, they had all these engineers that knew how to get people addicted to cigarettes. And they started applying that to food. Right? So it's, you know, again, that's how they're choosing to spend their time. So if we don't know how that process works, then we have very little chance of being able to work against it. Because, you know, they got billions of dollars invested in getting us addicted. And all we have is our one little brain. Yeah.

Philip Pape  12:28

And my comment about them making money too is like, I mean, simple thing is capitalism and economics drives. Behavioral Economics drives an entire industry to then become neuroscience experts and psychology experts. We see it in marketing, right? For years, we've seen it in marketing, even go back, you know, and look at the old Howdy Doody show. And you see how like, right in the show, they're marketing straight to kids, because they understand the psychology of it all. I just saw Taco Bell ad that was my wife and I were watching people were like, really, that's how they're pushing this, it was about how you have no time to eat. So go get Taco Bell. And it was like, wow, like, we're just throwing mindfulness out the window with that ad. And you think of like Planet Fitness, or the big box gyms, same thing. There are health and fitness companies whose model is to get you to not go to the gym. So we see perverse influences everywhere. And I think we said enough about that. But now that people know, we want to go to Okay, what do we do? So we take back control of our, our minds, our mindfulness to whether it is quitting smoking or eating better, rewiring the brain, right. Like, I think that's the next logical step. It is.

Dr. Judson Brewer  13:31

And so just to highlight this in the catapult us into what we can do, think of the McDonald's play scape, right? The parents could think, Oh, it's so convenient that we can go and play in the playground and eat at the same time. And McDonald's is saying, we're gonna have kids associate having fun with eating McDonald's. And so if you do that at an early age, then kids start to associate McDonald's with happiness, quote, unquote, with playing, and then they're wondering why it's so hard not to eat McDonald's when they're older. So with that as a backdrop, let's talk about what to do about it. Yeah,

Philip Pape  14:08

let's hear the expert on that one. Where do we start with? Yeah,

Dr. Judson Brewer  14:14

it goes back to really understanding this process itself is reward based learning or this reinforcement learning process. And so if we think about if we break it down, there are three key, let's say key ingredients for forming any habit around eating. The first is a trigger, the second is the behavior. And the third is the result or from a brain perspective, a reward. And so think of it let's use McDonald's as an example. So, kid goes to McDonald's and they see a play scape, right? And so there's the trigger. They're fed McDonald's foods, there's the behavior and they learn to associate playing with eating McDonald's, right? There's the result, and their brain lays down this memory. Hey, you know, let's go eat at McDonald's because it's fun. Okay, that's called positive reinforcement. So the other side of the equation, which is the same equation is just flipped a little bit in terms of Valence is the negative aspect when somebody feels sad, they've learned, hey, you know, I know McDonald's has a place gay is fine, right. So let me eat some comfort food. And that comfort food makes them the reward is that it makes them feel less sad or mad or bored or anxious or frustrated, or whatever the negative emotion is that they're trying to escape. And if they eat that, they get this temporary relief, one of my patients described it as that she would numb herself she would eat to numb herself. This is somebody who is binging on entire large pizzas in one sitting, because it you know, it started with one piece. And then that wasn't enough, two pieces, three pieces, because her body would habituate. And eventually, she was eating entire large pizzas in one sitting 20 out of 30 this month, because that was the only coping mechanism she had learned since the age of eight, and how to cope with negative emotions. So it was eat to numb. So trigger is negative emotion, the behavior is to eat a pizza. And the reward is to numb herself from her negative emotions, which of course, doesn't fix the problem in the first place. And just reinforces the process to do it again, the next time she has a negative emotion come up. What is the industry?

Philip Pape  16:29

Or what is the been the traditional approach to addressing this? That is not effective? Because I want to compare that to what actually works? Yeah.

Dr. Judson Brewer  16:37

So what I learned in residency, and what most people learned today is, is use your willpower. Right? Now, that works well for the diet and weight loss industry. Because they can say, look, the formula is correct. And I learned this formula in medical school calories in versus calories out. And they set it up like it's just a straightforward cognitive thing. If you eat salad instead of cake, you're going to lose weight, it is true. What they don't talk about is it in context, and whether that even fits with how our brains work. It's a great business model, because they can say follow our diet, whatever the diet is. And you'll notice these diets change every two years because there's a new fad diet coming out, because the last one didn't work. And so you think, Oh, here's something new, maybe this will work and they claim that it works. And then it it works briefly, and then it doesn't work. Because it all relies on this willpower, you know, you just have to use your willpower. And the diet, people will say, hey, it's not our fault. You know, this is a low calorie diet, it's your fault, you don't have enough willpower. So not only do they implore you to sign up for another year, but they also tell you that it's your fault. That is a travesty to blame people for a system that's set up to fail. Yeah,

Philip Pape  17:59

the yo yo diets are the Weight Watchers and everything. It's like, there's no endpoint, you go to them, you do the thing. It doesn't work, you come back, you do it again, then we want to say what are the alternatives because people in like my practice and nutrition coaching, we will use various tools and mechanisms that maybe they are I don't want to say band aids, but they're not necessarily getting at the root cause, such as tracking. And I've heard you talk about tracking. As you know, there's pros and cons. But I've definitely heard you say, you know, it's kind of an intermediate thing that doesn't necessarily solve any particular problem. But I do want to address that real quick, because we talk about tracking calories, macros, for awareness and things like that, not so much for emotional eating, per se, but it's a way to potentially get there. What do you think of tracking? Yeah,

Dr. Judson Brewer  18:41

it depends on how you use it. So if somebody uses tracking as a way to judge themselves, beat themselves up, you know, to say, Oh, I'm not meeting my goals, then it's just gonna ultimately fail, if they use it as an awareness tool, and we'll talk about why this is critical in a minute. If they use it as an awareness tool, it can be extremely helpful. But if they use it, anything more than helping them become aware of what they're putting in their bodies, then it's going to generally fail for them and actually can create even, you know, the same type of problems that, you know, the self control problems that are caused by the diet industry.

Philip Pape  19:22

Okay, so I mean, you mentioned self control, and actually do have, you talked about societal pressures in your book, how we value things like fitness, right, and self control and willpower. And that I think you said, quote, Those who carry a few unwanted pounds can feel like they're wearing a sandwich board announcing their failure. How do we build resilience against these judgments? Right, and shift the focus toward the practices I think we're going to talk about related to self care and compassion and all that we can get into. Yeah,

Dr. Judson Brewer  19:49

so I won't emphasize this today. But I think there's a big effort that needs to happen around public health and changing societal habits. It's around what is healthy. So, you know, I would just want to put a footnote there, because that's really important. So we're not, you know, there's this, you know, anti fat bias, where people just like that quote says, you know, somebody's walking around and they're deemed by society as obese or fat. Along with that goes, the label, lazy lack of self control, can't do it, failure, all this stuff. And there's lots of research showing that there are all sorts of, you know, biases and viewed discrimination against fat people basically. So that's something that we need to work on as a societal habit, at the individual level, where more of my research comes in, is that we can do a couple of things. One is one, see that societal bias, and to see if we're beating ourselves up, when we are working with our own behavior change processes, because this self deprecation that, you know, self abuse, literally for a lot of people actually gets in the way of making progress and sucks energy into this black hole of judgment, and shame and blame and guilt and all of this, that actually just keeps us spinning in the same types of cycles. So we can actually repurpose that energy to help us learn our brains work, help us learn to change our behaviors, but we can't repurpose it, if we're stuck in the same unit. If society is telling us we're bad. And then we're telling ourselves that we're bad on top of, which

Philip Pape  21:26

is yet another loop we can get into here. So okay, is this one of the first things people should be aware of and work on then? Is this like cultivating self compassion? Or are there some tools or steps like your reign method, you have a bunch of methods in the book that I thought were pretty straightforward and helpful? You know, again, what's step one, somebody's at the fridge, and they just have that like total urge, they can't help themselves. They know, they need to do something differently. What's next? Yeah.

Dr. Judson Brewer  21:51

So I think, depending on how much somebody judges themselves, this also fits. There's a general three step methodology that, you know, my labs been researching for over 10 years. Now, this fits into major buckets, one is around getting stuck in the urge to eat. And the other is getting stuck in that bucket of self judgment. So if we're judging ourselves and blaming ourselves, and that's taking all of our energy, it's a really good place to start is to map those habits out, and then bring in some kindness to help as an antidote. But I'll walk through the general process, and then we can see how we can apply it, both the eating and also the self judgment. So the first step is really just recognizing what the habit is. And we can simplify it. So we talked about these three ingredients for a habit loop, but you can actually simplify it just asking, what's the behavior? What am I doing right now? Am I eating because I'm hungry? Or am I eating because I'm bored, sad, lonely, angry, frustrated, you know what we're celebrating whatever. And so we can separate out the hedonic hunger, that celebration, anger, boredom, you know that the mood food relationship from the calorie, you know, I actually need calories right now, because I've added a deficit from that homeostatic hunger. That's the first step is just to be able to recognize what is this? Right. And so, for example, working with patients with binge eating disorder, those were so much together that they couldn't tell the difference.

Philip Pape  23:20

You mean the hedonic hunger and the homeostatic hunger and the homeostatic hunger?

Dr. Judson Brewer  23:25

Yeah, I still remember a patient. Because if you just clarified this for me so much, this was as if it was yesterday, but it was over. It was probably 15 years ago, where she said, I just have an urgent I eat. And my assumption was, oh, when somebody's hungry, they have an urge, because they're hungry. And she's like, I can't tell the difference between hunger and mood related eating. And so being able to just ask that question, am I actually hungry, helps us step back, and then start to be able to tease those apart, it can take a while for some people, where and then I've got some methodologies to help differentiate those until we can really quickly feel it like, oh, yeah, I'm actually hungry, or nope, I'm just angry. You know, in my anger drives me to McDonald's, or whatever. So that's the first step in before we go on. Does that make sense? Yeah,

Philip Pape  24:21

it makes sense. And people might be asking, Well, how do I do that? And I know you have, there's apps and things and there's probably checklists, rubrics, you know, maybe even just a journal and you literally just ask yourself the question, you know, again, if somebody's listening, they're not necessarily going to sign up for a big program, and they just want to know today. What do I do when I go grab my next snack? Yeah.

Dr. Judson Brewer  24:39

So the simple question there that they can ask themselves is, am I actually hungry? Right, and check in with their bodies. So this starts with awareness. They've got to be starting to build out awareness of their body. Am I actually hungry or not? And that can, you know, that's the basic question to be asking, and then looking for evidence whether they're hungry or not. Yeah, so you don't need an app, you don't need a book. You just need that question.

Philip Pape  25:04

This is part of your, your rain technique. I think we're gonna get into here because you started with recognize, it's related

Dr. Judson Brewer  25:09

to that. But it's it goes, it's even before that. So it's really just starting with this simple question. Am I hungry and starting to be able to tell the difference between that homeostatic hunger, the true physiologic hunger and the hedonic hunger, which is the mood food thing? Yeah,

Philip Pape  25:24

okay, no. And that's extremely helpful when you hear people discuss things like intuitive eating, and your hunger signals, and all that a lot of this gets lost in there, where there's a lot of finger pointing is like, well, you can't be intuitive because the food environment and you don't know what hunger is. And the other side's like, well, you have to track all the time, you know, you kind of get both. And it sounds like you can definitely, you know, learn about yourself as a human and your brain and actually know what real hunger is. Before we get to the next steps, yeah, great.

Dr. Judson Brewer  25:51

I mean, this is something that has been so important, from an evolutionary standpoint, that for some people, they regain that pretty quickly. And for others, it takes a little bit longer, especially with all of the noise in the system, and the noise that the food industry is deliberately injecting into the system. I haven't met anybody that hasn't been able to regain that, because it's such a critical evolutionary function.

Philip Pape  26:17

You told a really neat story,

Dr. Judson Brewer  26:19

I think this is on a hidden brain you talked about with the gummy worms, when you finally gave it a thought, moment of thought to what you were eating and what it tasted like that awareness, you realize it just tasted like chemicals or something like that, right? Yeah. Is that part of the this first phase is coming up? It's actually part of the second steps. Okay. All right. All right, once we can just pause, bring some awareness in and start getting reacquainted with our body and asking, am I actually hungry or not? And determining that, then we can go to the second step. And the second step is credit, I'd say all three steps are critical. But the second step is the most counterintuitive, but also the most critical in the way that works from a neuroscience standpoint is our brain, you know, this willpower thing, it's not even in the equations of neuroscience for forming behaviors or changing behaviors, right? That's how far off off the realm it actually is. So what is in those equations, is what's called reward hierarchy. And this reward art can be set up to help us make decisions every day. And the way it works is if given A versus B, and we've done both of them, our brains going to naturally compare them and say, Do I prefer a over b? Or do I prefer B to A, and whichever it gets, the higher reward value we're going to do. And that becomes our habit. So we don't have to relearn all of our habits every day. So most of this reward hierarchy is really helpful. For us, just living our everyday lives, it helps us you know, learn just the most efficient way to walk, this is the most efficient way to get food in my mouth. This is the most efficient way to do X, Y and Z. It also pertains to food, right? So from an evolutionary perspective, our brains looking for calorie density, because it's planning for famine. It says, hey, if I've got calories in front of me, I'm going to try to get them in. Because I don't know if they're going to have calories tomorrow. For most of us, we're not going to run into famine anytime in our lives. So when our brain says, hey, you know, sugar is the most efficient way to get calories in because I can get those in, I can storm this fat, I can save them for later. If we have a ready source of sugar, we can see how that becomes a problem. We just keep eating sugar or body keeps laying it down as fat. And then voila, we develop diabetes. Like it's some magical thing. No, it's just our body saying hey, you know, famine hasn't ever come and now you know, our pancreas is worn out, basically. So we can't handle all of this extra especially the adiposity, especially around our in our in our viscera idea in our intestine. So and we don't need to go into the details there. That's been well worked out. The bottom line is our body is going to prefer sugar to non sugar things until it's too much right. So the second step is really asking as another simple question, what am I getting from this?

29:21

Hey, just wanted to give a shout out to Philip. I personally worked with Philip for about eight months, and I lost a total of 33 pounds of skill weight and about five inches off my waist. Two things I really enjoy about working with Philip is number one, he's really taking the time to develop a deep expertise and nutrition and also resistance training. So he has that depth if you want to go deep on the whys with Philip but also if you want to just kind of get some instruction and more practical advice and a plan on what you need to do. You can pull back and communicate at that level also. He is a lifter himself. So he's very good Now you're aware of the performance and body composition goals that most lifters have. And also Phillip is trained in engineering. So he has some very efficient systems set up to make the coaching experience very easy and very efficient. And you can really track your results. And you will have real data when you're done working with Phillip and also have access to some tools likely that you can continue to use. If all that sounds interesting to you, Phillip, like all the coaches has a ton of free information out there and really encourage you to see if he may be able to help you out. So thanks again, Phil.

Dr. Judson Brewer  30:36

Now, if we look at it from a just a meal perspective, ticket one meal at a time, if we pay attention, the same food is going to taste different from the beginning of the meal to the end of the meal, which is kind of interesting in itself. Very same food, you can keep it at the same temperature, you can make sure it hasn't changed at all. Yet our body says wait a minute, I don't like this as much. At the end of the meal. As I did at the beginning what's going on here, our body is registering satiety. And it's got these all of these intricate networks set up to say, Hey, eat until you're full. But don't eat more than that, because that's what's gonna help you survive optimally. If we don't pay attention to those signals, those hunger and fullness signals. We're often eat beyond satiety, especially when we've got the engineered food. And then on top of that we learn to eat not because we're hungry, but because we're, you know, have some mood, right? So the second step is asking a simple question, what am I getting from this, right? Am I eating because I'm hungry? Or because I'm bored or whatever? And what do I get when I overeat? Right when I eat beyond satiety, but when I when I'm not even hungry at all. The second piece that we can ask is if like, let's use the gummy worms as an example. What do I get when I eat non food objects that have calories in them and that are designed to be addictive like gummy worms are right. So when I started paying attention to eating gummy worms, they had this sickly sweet petroleum hit nice to them. I still, my mouth still screws in my face still screws up like Yak. I haven't eaten and gummy warming. And I can't remember how many years but I can still remember what they taste like, right? Because my body was like, dude, really, you call this food. But I hadn't noticed that for years because I was just eating. Because I was basically addicted to them. I was craving that next gummy worm while this the gummy worm was still in my mouth. And I wasn't registering what it actually tasted like. So we found We've done studies with this we've been called Eat right now that we've that we can actually run these studies to measure reward value, it only takes 10 to 15 times if somebody's really paying attention, whether it's eating the gummy worm equivalent, or overeating for that reward value to drop below zero. When that reward value drops below zero. That's when our brain says hey, this is no longer rewarding. We become disenchanted with that behavior. That disenchantment is key for behavior change,

Philip Pape  33:04

because why are we going to do something that we're not excited to do? We're not right, notice how that takes zero amount of willpower. This is so powerful. There's a lot I want to ask about here. But like, you really close the loop on the willpower thing, because what I got from that is that the habits that we want to engender are about not needing willpower at all. Like that's the powerful statement here. Is that the things we want to do we want to put them on autopilot. So we don't have to have willpower. And I know people are thinking, Well, what do I do to change the habit? And that's we're kind of getting into that, when you mentioned that the body and the mind have these automatic preferences, right? You said you compare things you just automatically go with this. And so if you can make one of those less palatable and drop it in the kind of choice tree here, you'll go toward the other one, a few things came to mind. One is how like, I've always, I've told my clients like when they go to a restaurant, they're a little bit hungry. It helps to have something like the salad first, just because you start going through that satiety curve that you talked about with your stomach, like the task salad is going to taste amazing. And then the next thing is going to taste less amazing and so on. Because of that people often think of satiety, I think in terms of like calorie density, but what you're talking about is just the temporal the time based aspect of satiety is super important. And then the the non food objects. I was thinking of movie popcorn, right? You go to the movies and you just mindlessly shove it in. Folks just stop and eat a few of those like mindfully and you'll see how disgusting that oil,

Dr. Judson Brewer  34:33

the oil and the amount of salt. Yeah,

Philip Pape  34:36

well I put my own salt. I've already put too much on there. Yeah, you're right. Okay, so then you said okay, we need to have disenchantment with the behavior. Neuroscience doesn't even care about willpower. We care about the loops in our brain. So before we go to step three, how does this play into pickiness with things like vegetables. People grow up and they have certain behaviors and they avoid vegetables, apparently, and get them to eat them. And then now they're in their 20s and 30s. And they don't eat any vegetables. does this tie in somehow with like how our brain is trained and disenchantment?

Dr. Judson Brewer  35:11

I think it certainly could, right? So I don't want to generalize. Because there, there could be lots of different situations that lead to the same result. But let's use just one example. So a kid is fussy. And for some reason, you know, they say, I don't want to eat my vegetables, and they throw up a fuss, and they have a fed, and their parents are like, Fine, I'm not going to make you your vegetables. Well, you know, french fries, or ketchup or sugar laden things, you know, gotcha, typically has a lot of sugar in it, right. And so if you think of French fries, you get the Triple Threat of sugar, fat, and salt, especially if you're putting ketchup on them. So the kids are going to, can learn this preference for this type of addictive type of thing. Now, as a kid, you're not going to typically have a lot of negative consequences for eating a bunch of French fries. Because, you know, they're usually pretty active they can. Now it's interesting. This is less and less the case case these days with a lot of sedentary, you know, like a lot of the habits of kids where it's not to go outside and play, but it's to stay inside and play video games, right? So. So I think childhood obesity is at a record level now. And we can see why you get the Busey kid, the parents too tired to just wait it out, and say, hey, you know what, they're hungry, can it take over at some point, if I don't give in, but if I give in, they've just trained me to feed them crappy food. And so that that habit gets set up. And they can go, you know, junior high schools, high schools, the food industry tries to get in there. And you know, be able to offer all these sugary things because they know they're going to that's a critical period to get kids addicted to certain sodas and certain things. And so they're going to try to get in there and how and have unhealthy meals as well. And so there's no real place to line people up to kind of learn, oh, that healthy food actually feels pretty good. So we're fighting against all of that history where somebody makes it in their 20s. They wake up, and they're like, Wow, well, I feel really sluggish in the morning. And I you know, I'm in a pretty unhealthy weight. And I don't have a lot of energy throughout the day. When I feel sad, I reach for candy, right? So that's where we just have to start to become like pay attention and see the cause and effect relationship between what we put in and how we feel. It's that food mood relationship. And it can be hard to tease apart if that's all we're doing. Until we start really isolating enough of the variable. So we can see very clearly, what a bunch of junk food this is what happens. And when I eat clean for a week, this is what happens. So interesting. I grew up in Indiana needs to race BMX bikes. And I learned this myself kind of accidentally, when the way it would work, when we race on weekends was that there were three heats, you know. And so you whoever won the most place the best in three heats won the trophy or whatever. And so I could do well, like I'm the first heat and then I bought like soda and crap. And then I'd get tired by the third heat, because you have to go through all the age groups. And my mom's like, why don't you need like peanut butter and honey sandwiches or something like that something a little more nutritious. So I do that. And I was like, wow, sustained energy, I can actually do better consistently. And I learned from my own direct experience, hey, junk food leads to this, how the food leads to this. And I just happened to run into that, because I needed it in junior high school for my athletic performance. So a lot of people don't have that serendipitous opportunity to learn from their own experience until later in life. But that's the place where we where actual change happens is when we can really say okay, let me pay careful attention to what I get from this, whether it's an amount or type of food, versus this and this is where the third step comes in. But before we go there, you know, we can even just start by asking when I overeat, what do I get from this? Right? How do I feel afterwards? I've never had somebody come back and say, You know what, thank you for helping me see how wonderful it feels to overeat. You know, thank you Dr. Bird. Now I am I'm overeating even more. Never, never. Yeah.

Philip Pape  39:32

Could you have a situation though, where someone acknowledges that like the first of the six muffins actually was a very pleasurable experience and they enjoyed it and it was high quality and then it was the second through sixth though it's the issue. Yeah,

Dr. Judson Brewer  39:45

yeah. So this isn't going to make chocolate tastes terrible is not going to make muffins taste terrible at Target. So it's both the type of food and the amount of food for me. There was nothing redeemable about gummy worms but other People are gonna be like, yeah, other people like, yeah, gummy worms no big deal. I'm not saying that everybody's gonna have the same experience that I did. What I will say is that our bodies are pretty intricately tuned. And the more we can tune them, the more we're going to our bodies are going to really say, really, you know, this sickly sweet thing is. Now what helps us do that is finding and comparing these two foods that truly satisfy that urge to have something sweet, for example, and don't have any negative consequences to them. So just to put it out there, the example for me was blueberries, right, I started eating, you know, it was like, after dinner, I wanted something sweet. I needed some blueberries. And I was like, wow, these are good. These are really good. And blueberries have enough fiber in them and all this stuff. But they're not overly sweet. They're not they don't hit that bliss point. So I can eat some blueberries, and be finished, and actually feel great afterwards, right, and I'd have more blueberries for later. So we can become disenchanted with an old habit. But importantly, we also have to become enchanted with something different. And that something different tends to come in two flavors. One is not overdoing it. If it's like one muffin versus three months, or the type of food which can be you know, for me gummy worms versus blueberries. I'll give a concrete example. I remember somebody in our E right now program to she and her husband had gone to a was like a church, you know, get together with a it's like a yearly thing. And she had a friend who would always bring like the world's best pie. And she she ate three or four bites of the pie. And then she turns she's like, I don't want anymore. And she turns to her husband, because usually when he two to three pieces, right? She turned her eyes when she's like, does this taste as good as it always does. And he's like your ads killer. It's same yours because same thing. She's like, Ha, it tastes good. But I still want anymore, right? Because she'd seen the difference between eating those few bites and enjoying it. And eating to the three pieces, which didn't actually make the enjoyment any better. It made it worse, but she was now aware that that was the case. So same pie, different result. You know, oddly,

Philip Pape  42:20

I remember iced speaking of ice cream, I love ice cream, I still do and I enjoy it. And I remember when I was tracking my food and deliberately reducing my portion of ice cream, it forced me to realize that I actually could like less ice cream, right? It was kind of a again, awareness. Really not the fact that I was picking X number of grams of ice cream was the fact that I could get through it be satisfied and realize that was the case. And I think we, like you said we don't have we're not in tune with that. When you go to go to the ice cream parlor and you see people ordering these large ice creams you like you'd probably be cool. Like in your head, you know, you'd probably be caught this little one. But before we go to step three, I still there's a few other little corner cases I'm curious about. So the first is actually this is from a listener community. She said, You know, when she eats a diverse diet, lots of vegetables, meat fiber, she still craves the sweet after a meal, even if she's like, quote unquote, full, like, where does that come from? And how does that tie into this?

Dr. Judson Brewer  43:15

So evolutionarily speaking, and this is where the, you know, the example of a holiday meal comes in, in an extreme. So you know, let's say Thanksgiving in the US where you know, people are they're eating till their stuff, for whatever reason, because that's the habit, you know, societal habit. And then they pull up the desert array buffet, and they're like eight desserts, and they have to have one of each, right? Or at least some of it. Well, there's an evolutionary mechanism for variety in there. Because our body is saying, Hey, if you eat a bunch of different foods, you're more likely to get all the micronutrients that you need. So there is a, there's an evolutionary, at least explanation for it's like, oh, you know, like, let's have a little something extra, because that might help fill this little niche that I hadn't filled with the the year the regular meal.

Philip Pape  44:09

So that's an interesting segue into the other corner case then, which is, I alluded to vegetables before, I used to be very picky. I'm not anymore. My wife helped me out with that, because she pureed vegetables into things I liked, for like a year, love her for it. And I was willing to do the experiment. And for whatever reason, my brain got used to it or I saw it and was eating it and realizing it's not so bad. You know, like, I'm curious about the neuro science mechanisms, but also where that's going to fit into our process here of not just avoiding foods you don't want avoiding foods you don't want too much of but then adding in foods that you kind of know you want to need, but maybe don't taste so great to you yet. Yeah. So

Dr. Judson Brewer  44:49

not to nerd out too much from a neuroscience perspective, but hopefully this will be helpful for folks. I'll keep it simple, but try not to oversimplify we tend to have a top down model of the world of how We interact with things and that is based. It starts with our sensory information coming in and saying, Hey, I'd like this I don't like this often gets set up early in life, you know, where if our parents feed us a bunch of vegetables, early in life, it's much that top down model says, I like vegetables, when they don't forced us or, you know, say, Oh, you're not leaving the table until you because then we associate vegetables with negative things, right? So it's like, oh, vegetables, you know, boom, we've got this top down model, not a big problem, because then our bottom up sensory information says, Hey, vegetables, and our top down model says, I like vegetables. If we come in with the I hate vegetables, model the world, two things are going to happen. One is, this affects how we see how our sensory information is interpreted. So we are literally biasing our world based on our worldview, so that our world conforms to our worldview. We see this everywhere you look at politics, and you take any you political actor that you like, or you don't like, and you have a top down worldview, let's just use age as an example, right? Doesn't matter whether we're Republican or Democrat, we can look at the other candidate and say that person is too old for the job, or that person is just right for the job, are top down model until some sensory information comes up. And proves to us with beyond a shadow of a doubt that our top down model is not true. And then we have to revise our top down model, right? So we see this all over. It's not a political thing. It's a brain thing.

Philip Pape  46:27

It's framing right?

Dr. Judson Brewer  46:28

Now the way to put it. Yeah. And that severely bias is how we see the world. And we can also you know, we're like how can that person not see this? Well, they have a such a model, that they're conforming their bottom up information to fit with that model. Now how this is relevant to eating is that we can be like I vegetables, to the point where every vegetable looks like a Mr. Yuk sign. And so we're not going to actually take in that bottom of sensory information and explore, hey, does this sensory information actually fit my top down model? Or does it force me to reevaluate this top down model, right. So you could do a couple of things, one, as you could put somebody on psychedelics, which is a way to like, totally change this top down model temporarily, and then introduced bottom up sensory information. I'm not suggesting we do this, but this is just a hypothetical, where suddenly taking notes, yeah, this bottom up sensory information is more accessible. And it reforms are top down view of the world. You don't need to take psychedelics for that well you can do is start to bias awareness. So if you start to get curious that curiosity helps to increase the weights, they call this in math, how much this essentially information is weighted as compared to our top down model. So our top down model has to start to pay attention and say, Hey, does my model fit the data? And when the data are really, really clear, then have to reevaluate and change our models. So for you, let's use you as an example. Tell me if this fits your experience. So you have this top down model says no vegetables, and your your wife says, well get curious, let's puree some vegetables, start introducing some sensory information where you can actually access that information. And I'm guessing your brains like vegetables aren't so bad.

Philip Pape  48:17

Exactly. Fine. Model. And then

Dr. Judson Brewer  48:20

suddenly, that top down model is going to start looking at vegetables like yeah, it's compared to yuck. That is

Philip Pape  48:27

awesome. I loved it. This has got to be one of the most powerful like insights out of this episode, at least for me, because we talked about curiosity and skepticism and using data and all of that. And that's exactly what you're saying is like, just always be curious. If you have a fixed statement sounds like fixed versus growth, right? It is this or it? Isn't this that there's some there's an opening there. There's an opening there. You just got to find what it is. So okay, cool. So I think we talked about step 1am. I actually hungry. Step two, what am I getting from this? What step three,

Dr. Judson Brewer  48:55

step three, I call it finding the bigger better offer. And what that does is it leverages Step Two directly. So if our brains are always looking for setting up a reward hierarchy, and we start to become disenchanted say I became disenchanted with the gummy worms, my brain says, okay, that slot is now open, fill it in with something better. And so I started comparing it and I mean, for me, it was blueberries, I start eating blueberries, and I pay attention. I see blueberries tastes great. They're healthy. Like I get all this energy. I don't get the sugar rush and crash. I don't crave more, all this good stuff, right? And so my brain gets this bigger, better offer, it sets up blueberries and then it becomes very easy to make that choice, right? My brain is already doing that. I'm not even choosing my brain is like duh, you know, this is better, you know, until you prove to me until you give me some sensory information that's different. That's where I'm going is blueberries are my go to choice. So that happens so it can be a dip One type of food, but it can also be a different amount of food. So if it's one muffin versus three muffins, we can ask ourselves, hey, what feels better one versus three? Or in your example, Hey, actually a little bit of ice cream. Will you tell me it was better than a lot of ice cream? Yeah,

Philip Pape  50:17

you didn't feel stuffed? And like, you know, afterwards.

Dr. Judson Brewer  50:19

Did you have where's your willpower in that? Yeah, no.

Philip Pape  50:24

No, it was easy, right? But that's

Dr. Judson Brewer  50:26

it. Right? So not only do we become disenchanted in the second set, we become enchanted. It could be the exact same food. But what bringing that curiosity and then asking how much is enough? How much is enough? And truly being curious?

Philip Pape  50:40

Okay, yeah, no, as simple as that, right? No, I love it. It's substituting one thing for another. I'm trying to think if there are like particularly difficult cases where this, you know, require something extra to it. I don't know if you have exactly, you know, if you can give us an example of where some of your patients have had, or I don't know, if you call them patients, but like, the binge eating that's just uncontrollable, and they don't like anything, and everything is just against them. This process works every time, or is there anything along the way, that's like an obstacle, there are a couple of

Dr. Judson Brewer  51:13

things that I see pretty consistently that are worth pointing out, you know, with my patients, for example, my clinic patients, one is if they've, so our brains don't like change, right. And this is actually fitting with these top down models of the world, our brains are looking to try to predict the future. And what's called mathematically is you're trying to maximize future or minimize future prediction errors, you're trying to be able to accurately predict the future. And so what we're doing is we're What do you how do you predict the future, it's based on past experience. And so you take your past experience, and you say, Okay, if I do this, again, this is going to happen. So if something has helped us survive to this point, it's going to be hard to change course, because it's a habit. And our brain says anything deviating from this could be dangerous, and I could die, you know, edit an extremely, that's what our survival brain is saying. So anything that's different is going to push up against habits of the comfort of familiarity. So that's the biggest thing that most people run into is, oh, this is this could be dangerous. And really, so I have people ask themselves, is this dangerous? Or is this different? To remind themselves that anytime we're stepping out of our comfort zone, we can either step into our panic zone, which makes us run back to our comfort zone? Or we could step into our growth zone where we're actually growing and learning. That's where Curiosity comes in. So instead of going, Oh, no, we recognize that Oh, no habit. And we go, oh, this is different. Right? Vegetables gonna kill me? I don't know. Let me try and see, right? Most likely not going to, obviously not eating poisonous vegetables, right. But that's where it comes. I mean, that's actually where it comes from. We're gonna go to food that we know isn't going to kill us. Now, generally, society is is not going to put food in the grocery store that's going to kill us. So we don't have to worry about that.

Philip Pape  53:04

So, yeah, so again, it comes back to curiosity, I love it, it

Dr. Judson Brewer  53:08

generally comes back to curiosity. So that's the biggest thing that I see. And directly related is when people have had food rules forever, like, I have to eat this, or I have to do that. Or they're depending on somebody's step by step checklist, just tell me what to do. It's really scary to step out of that, especially when they asked me, Are you really telling me that I can eat as much or whatever I want? And I say not only Yes, but you have to, in order to change. Now, the good news is they've largely done that enough in the past that they don't actually have to go back and repeat the experiment. They can just recall their previous experience. And that's what did I get from that last time? Right? And if it's, if they can feel into the results, enough, they don't have to repeat the behavior. But if they can't, they're going to repeat the behavior anyway, at some point. So they might as well pay attention as they do, and give themselves the freedom to learn and say, Wait, this is in the spirit of learning, so that they're really paying attention and asking how much is enough? How much is enough? So they're gathering what I call, they're building up their disenchantment database. If they're so scared that they're always going to go back to their old habit, it's going to be really hard to change.

Philip Pape  54:21

Sure, understood. No, I love the whole message of flexibility and openness, curiosity, collecting data being it is what it is, we're just trying to figure ourselves out, which is awesome. One little last thing that comes to mind is when someone is in a fat loss phase, and they're actually deliberately in a calorie deficit. And let's say they've dialed in, you know, their eating habits, like we've talked about here, but now there is physical hunger. You know, what does that introduce? Is there? I'm guessing the answer's no, a willpower aspect to it, or is there other things that we lean on to continue that and be successful?

Dr. Judson Brewer  54:54

Yeah. Again, it that willpower is more myth than muscle. So it's not about willpower at that point. and some people associate willpower with doing something. But really, if they look at it carefully, it's probably the reward of having done the thing that they then go back and attribute to Oh, yeah, it's because of willpower. So here again, we can look to see, okay, if I'm looking to lose X amount of weight, when hunger comes up, if they're in a calorie deficit phase, they can go, oh, no, I gotta fight this or then go, oh, what does this actually feel like, right? And so instead of running away, or pushing against something, you know, that phrase, what we resist persists. And having that build or run after us, we go at it, but not in a fighting with it way, but in an aikido way, where we bring that curiosity in. And I love that phrase, you know, the only way out is through. And so if we start exploring, oh, what does anger feel like? Oh, what does it feel like? Oh, what does it feel like? And we start to notice these thoughts like, oh, no, if I don't eat, something's terrible is gonna happen? Or, oh, no, or Oh, no, or Oh, no, pretty quickly, like within days, we can actually get used to having hunger, having it be there, and not having a drive our lives. Now, I'm not saying it's easy, but it is definitely like, that is the most consistent way to be able to be under like

Philip Pape  56:21

smart, efficient, consistent, over forcing yourself or trying to, quote unquote, make it easy necessarily. What did you say there that I wanted to comment on? Oh, the hunger like getting used to it and knowing that it's actually doing the job. I mean, you're going to have some physical hunger when you are releasing fat stores, you're going to have that. So I love it. Okay. Is there any, any question you wish I'd asked Judd? And if so, what's your answer?

Dr. Judson Brewer  56:45

Well, the one thing I would say just briefly is, now let's apply this to kindness. All of the steps are the same. But let's use a concrete example. So if somebody judges themselves, see, they look in the mirror, I had a patient who didn't have a single mirror in his apartment because he was so self judgmental, right? So that's the extreme of what we're talking about here. Somebody looks in the mirror, trigger, they judge themselves, Oh, I'm fat and whatever. There's the behavior. And then the result is shame. Or maybe they ironically, go and eat to numb themselves, which I often see. So the self judgment, habit loops are critical. So one recognize second step is ask, what do I get from judging myself? So there's this false association between Oh, if I beat myself up, then I will change, right. And what that comes from is the perceived reward of doing something rather than doing nothing. The irony is that doing something often perpetuates the habit makes it worse. So we can ask the same question, what do I get from beating myself up? Oh, it doesn't feel very good. Nobody's like, Oh, this feels great. It doesn't, right? If they're being honest with themselves. The third step is then to compare that what's the bigger better offer kindness, right? Oh, and so the number of ways that people can bring in kindness, tons of stuff out there for building it, but really, it's starting at what does it feel? What does kindness feel like? What's it like when somebody's been kind to me? Anybody can remember that, right? Anybody has had some small act of kindness happen to them in their life, and hopefully recently, so they can feel into kindness feels like and then they can compare that What does kindness feel like compared to self judgment, right, so they can find that bigger, better offer? And then they can start exploring? Well, what's it feel like when I'm kind of myself, and that can simply start with not judging themselves? Right? Again, when it's an old habit, it can be hard to break. So it can take a while, but it is not that hard to access. And your first step leads to the next step leads to the next step.

Philip Pape  58:46

So self judgment is the gummy worms, the petroleum, gummy worms, kindnesses, the blueberries. And that's how we're going to tie it all together. All right. Jeff, thank you so much for your time. Where can listeners find out about you? I know you've got a lot out there. So where do you want them to reach out

Dr. Judson Brewer  59:00

the simplest places, my website, it's Dr. Judd, Dr. J. ud.com. Got a bunch of free resources. You know, the hunger habit book, The unwinding anxiety book, the other books in our apps are there as well, if anybody's interested, but also tons of free resources, if just people want to learn how their brain works. One thing I love to do is try to make the science accessible. So we have some animations, videos, things like that, that anybody can access for free. Yeah,

Philip Pape  59:24

it's full of stuff. I mean, I would say your book is excellent as well, in terms of practicality. It is not it's not too dense. You know, in terms of the science, it's just right, at least for me, I'd like to geek out on that. But it has a lot of practical things in there. And we'll throw your website in so people can check out free resources as well. Again, appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on. My pleasure.

Bigger Isn't Always Better for Strength or Metabolism (Scaling Laws) | Ep 195

How can a small guy deadlift more than the big guy, or why does your smaller friend never seem to gain weight no matter how much they eat?

And what does this mean for your lifting and calorie targets?

Discover the science behind these phenomena as we delve into the fascinating world of scaling laws and their impact on fitness and body mechanics. We break down the principles governing strength, power output, metabolism, and nutrition to help you your training and nutrition.

We'll explore why smaller individuals often exhibit higher relative strength and why lighter weight classes in powerlifting shine. Or why smaller individuals can do more pull-ups.

You'll learn about Kleber’s Law and how basal metabolic rate (BMR) scales differently with body size, revealing why smaller individuals have relatively higher metabolic rates.

And what it all means for YOU both physically and psychologically as you set goals for strength, performance, weight loss, and anything else in your health and fitness.

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

Episode summary:

Philip delves into the intriguing world of scaling laws and their profound impact on fitness and body mechanics. If you've ever wondered why a petite gym-goer can outperform the biggest lifter in pull-ups or why your smaller friend seems to eat endlessly without gaining weight, this episode is for you. Through the lens of scientific and engineering principles, Philip explains how different physical quantities change with size and how these changes affect strength, power output, metabolism, and nutrition.

Scaling laws are fascinating concepts from engineering and biology that explain why bigger isn't always better when it comes to fitness. For example, the principles of scaling laws help us understand why smaller individuals often excel in pull-ups and why lighter weight classes in powerlifting shine. These laws also explain why smaller individuals have relatively higher metabolic rates. Understanding these principles can help you set realistic goals and optimize your training and diet strategies tailored to your body size.

One of the most compelling points discussed is how strength scales with body size. Strength is primarily a function of muscle cross-sectional area, which scales to the power of two, while body mass scales to the power of three. This means that as you get bigger, your strength increases, but not as fast as your weight. Therefore, smaller individuals often have higher relative strength. This phenomenon explains why lighter weight classes in powerlifting often lift more relative to their body weight. If you're a smaller individual, you might have an advantage in relative strength movements like pull-ups or Olympic lifts. Conversely, larger individuals might excel more in absolute strength movements like deadlifts and bench presses.

Metabolism is another area where scaling laws come into play. Kleber's Law states that basal metabolic rate scales to the power of 0.75, resulting in smaller individuals having a relatively higher metabolism. This explains why smaller people often seem to be able to eat more relative to their size without gaining weight. Larger individuals, on the other hand, burn more calories in absolute terms, which means they can eat more total food without gaining weight. Understanding these metabolic principles can help you set more realistic dietary goals and optimize your nutrition based on your body size.

Nutrition doesn't scale linearly with body size. For example, smaller individuals require more protein relative to their body weight compared to larger individuals. This is independent of lean body mass. Therefore, if you're a 110-pound female, you might need 110-120 grams of protein, whereas a 300-pound individual wouldn't need 300 grams of protein. These principles also apply to calorie intake, which is tied to your metabolism. Tracking your food and weight can help you determine your real-life calorie needs and optimize your diet accordingly.

The psychological benefits of understanding scaling laws are also significant. Knowing that there are natural, scientific reasons for the differences in strength, metabolism, and nutrition between individuals can be incredibly liberating. It helps you stop comparing yourself to others and focus on maximizing your potential within the natural laws that govern your body. Realistic expectations can be incredibly motivating, allowing you to set goals that are tailored to your individual potential rather than trying to meet arbitrary standards.

The episode concludes with practical steps to apply these insights to your fitness journey. For smaller individuals, focus on relative strength movements and don't get discouraged if your absolute numbers aren't as high as those of larger lifters. For larger individuals, take advantage of your ability to excel in absolute strength lifts. When it comes to cardio and endurance, smaller individuals might have an advantage due to better heat dissipation and lower cost of movement, while larger individuals need to manage their heat during intense cardio.

In terms of goal setting, understanding scaling laws helps you set realistic strength goals based on your body size. For example, relative strength standards like 2x body weight for deadlifts or 1.5x body weight for squats can serve as benchmarks. When it comes to pull-ups, losing weight can help you achieve more reps because you are lifting less weight. Choosing exercises that play to your body's strengths can also be beneficial. Smaller individuals might excel at gymnastic-style movements, while larger individuals might excel at traditional lifts.

In summary, scaling laws offer a new perspective on fitness, helping you optimize your training and diet based on your unique body size. Understanding these principles can help you set realistic goals, tailor your fitness strategies, and achieve incredible results. Tune in to the episode to transform your approach to fitness by leveraging the science and engineering principles that shape our bodies. Let's use our wits, lift those weights, and embrace the power of knowledge in our fitness endeavors.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:00

Have you ever wondered why the smallest guy in the gym can do the most pull-ups, or why your petite friend seems to eat whatever she wants without gaining weight, or why that medium-sized guy can pull a 500-pound deadlift? If you've ever been puzzled by what seem to be fitness paradoxes, you're not alone. The answer lies in a fascinating concept from engineering and biology called scaling laws. Today, we're diving into the counterintuitive world of scaling laws and how they secretly shape every aspect of your body and your fitness journey. We'll explore why bigger isn't always better when it comes to strength and metabolism. Whether you're a towering power lifter or a compact gymnast, this episode's going to give you a new perspective on how to optimize your fitness based on your unique body size.

Philip Pape: 1:00

Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're continuing our Wednesday series on applying engineering principles to health and fitness. Now we've all had the experience of seeing a massive guy struggling with pull-ups, or a much smaller person who's able to squat really heavy weight. Or, you know, maybe you're out to dinner, you're eating with friends everybody's of a different size and you notice that the smaller person over here seems to eat just as much as the much larger person over here, without gaining weight, for example and I've I've experienced that with my own wife actually being on a on a more small side, being able to eat as much as I can eat. And you're just scratching your head. You're like, why doesn't size always correlate with the strength in the gym or someone's metabolism, how much, how many calories they burn, the way? You'd expect. What if I told you there's a set of principles that explains these paradoxes, from science, from engineering, a concept that helps you understand why bigger isn't always better and maybe why we shouldn't worry about that so much and instead think about applying the principles to ourselves and our journey, our bodies, and then learning from that to make the best decisions for us. Because when we talk about optimization, we're talking about optimization for you. We're not talking about getting the maximum results at all costs based on some fixed plan. This is the premise behind setting realistic goals, which then you can actually achieve, and you can actually get incredible results doing it that way, rather than assuming you're going to get some output whether it's strength, metabolism or something else based on what others would expect for them.

Philip Pape: 2:43

Before we dive in, if you're enjoying the show, if you want more content that blends these scientific and engineering principles with practical fitness advice, please hit the follow button, hit the subscribe button and if you're already following the show, the next level up that you can do for me is just tell somebody else about it. That's it. Just tell somebody hey, you're gonna love this show. Share with them a specific episode, post it on social media, post it in your story, whatever is most comfortable for you, so that more people can find the show, and then ensure that we reach as many people as possible, and I can keep creating content like this.

Philip Pape: 3:17

All right, so let's get into today's topic about scaling laws. Here's what we're covering what are they, how they affect you in terms of strength and power output, how your body size affects metabolism and energy expenditure, the implications of scaling laws on nutrition, and then what are the practical takeaways. So it is a little bit more of a deep dive episode for a typical Wednesday, where I'm often unscripted, because I really wanted to get this right for you. Let's start with the basics. What are scaling laws? Well, they are how different physical quantities change as the size of an object changes, right, something's bigger or smaller. How do different physical quantities change with that? In biology and engineering, these help us understand why things work the way they do at different sizes. For example, you've probably heard how an ant, right, little tiny ants can lift many times their body weight. But why can't humans do the same thing? And it comes down to scaling. As an organism gets larger, its volume and thus its mass right, how much it weighs on the earth increases much faster than its cross-sectional area. Pretty cool, think about that. As you get larger, the volume and mass goes fast, increases faster than the area, the cross-sectional area. This means a larger animal needs disproportionately more muscle to perform the same relative feats of strength. I don't know if you've ever thought about this, but this is the kind of cool stuff we cover here, and then I'm always fascinated and geek out on.

Philip Pape: 4:48

So let's apply this to human strength and power. Have you ever noticed that in powerlifting competitions, right? You ever see somebody doing a deadlift, or even a strong man? The lighter weight classes often lift more relative to their body weight than the heavier classes, right? And this isn't because they're necessarily stronger in absolute terms. In fact, they're not. Right, a small guy. You know, a 190 pound guy at that level is not going to outlift a 350 pound guy, I mean, with rare exception. Right, it's because of how the strength scales with size. Strength is primarily a function of muscle cross-sectional area, which bear with me here it scales to the power of two. So think of, like, when you square something like two times two is four, that's two squared, all right, but body mass scales to the power of three, okay, Okay, and maybe you can think in terms of you know, we're a three-dimensional body and so the power of three is like a prism or a cube, okay, so this means as you get bigger, your strength increases, but not as fast as your weight. And this is why smaller individuals often have higher relative strength. I hope I didn't lose you yet, because a little bit of math, but that's all I have in terms of the math department.

Philip Pape: 6:05

Here's where it gets interesting for your training. If you're a smaller individual, you might have an advantage in relative strength movements like pull-ups or Olympic lifts. If you're larger, you might excel more in absolute strength movements like the big lifts, deadlifts, bench press, right, it doesn't mean you shouldn't or can't do any of those things, it's just about setting expectations and understanding your body size and how this plays into it right. Your height is going to make a big difference, as well as your weight, and of course you can't control your height without lopping off your feet or something. But you can control your weight and when you understand this, it helps you set more realistic goals and choose routines, exercises, volume. You know loads, even types of activities that play to your body's natural strengths. Of course, you may not know what those are until you play around with different things. So that's on the strength side. I thought that was a pretty cool thing to understand. How you know.

Philip Pape: 7:03

As we get bigger, we would actually need more and more muscle to increase in relative strength. So smaller folks tend to have the ability to generate higher relative strength, which also is why you shouldn't get totally freaked out about potentially losing some fat and losing all your strength as a result, cause you're not you might lose a little, a little bit of absolute strength, but once you've built up that strength I've seen it time and again with my clients big guys have a lot of muscle. We go and lose 30 pounds. They can lift just as much, and now their relative strength is massive. So don't discount all of these things.

Philip Pape: 7:34

Now let's talk about metabolism, because there's a relationship here as well. Right, it's not the physical relationship, it's more on the energy side. So the amount of energy your body burns. It's more on the energy side so the amount of energy your body burns, called your basal metabolic rate, your BMR. It also doesn't scale with your body weight. It actually scales to the power of 0.75. Please, I hope I don't lose you here. It scales to the power of 0.75. This is known as Kleber's Law Pretty cool stuff.

Philip Pape: 8:03

And what this means is that if you're smaller, your metabolism is likely higher relative to your body weight than a larger person. Ah, this is why smaller people often seem to be able to eat more relative to their size without gaining weight. And you know, I've wondered this myself often when I have clients. I've had a hundred pound female clients, and of course I've had clients usually male clients and of course I've had clients usually male clients 300 pounds and North of that. And yet the disparity in metabolism isn't as large as you would think. You would think you get down to a hundred pounds and your metabolism is now all of a sudden 900 calories, like if you were to scale it, but it doesn't quite work that way. It kind of it kind of bottoms out a bit. It starts to slow down in in uh on the bottom end as somebody is smaller and smaller and smaller, right. That's why smaller people again, um, seem to have a higher metabolism than you would think, and, of course, it varies individual to individual. We're talking about averages here.

Philip Pape: 8:59

Now, if you're larger, this is not something to worry about, because your absolute calorie burn as a larger person is still higher. Thing to worry about because your absolute calorie burn as a larger person is still higher and that still means you get to eat more total food, right? Which is which is their advantage when it comes to feeling satisfied on a diet, for example and again, I have seen this many times with usually male clients who are in their mid to upper two hundreds, and they can they just burn a ton of calories even when they're not in the best shape. When they start with me, if they haven't been walking a lot, maybe they haven't been lifting, and we get them doing all that, even then they might start with a decent metabolism just because they're bigger, right. However, a smaller person can also build up their metabolism over time, through both expenditure and muscle mass. So very, very interesting to think about these things. In case you're wondering why you have a certain metabolism or why you have certain struggles that others don't, it can be helpful to put in these terms, but don't overthink it. I just think it's kind of cool. And then that brings us to nutrition.

Philip Pape: 10:03

Nutrition doesn't scale linearly with body size. For example, protein, right. Protein. We often talk about it as gram per pound, right, or 0.7 grams per pound, that's per body weight. But in reality, smaller individuals need slightly more protein relative to their weight, and then larger individuals need less relative to their weight, and then larger individuals need less relative to their weight, and that's actually independent of that's independent of lean body mass as well, which is another factor. I don't want to. I don't want to overcomplicate it, but it just explains why. If you're like 110 pound female, I might want you easily eating 110, 120 grams of protein. But if you're 300 pounds, you definitely don't need 110, 120 grams of protein. But if you're 300 pounds, you definitely don't need to eat 300 grams of protein. You know, you could probably get away with 200 and be perfectly fine. It doesn't scale right. And then the same thing goes with calories, obviously, because calories are tied to your metabolism, so I don't think you have to like restate that. So what does this all mean for you? Practical purposes, cause at the end of the day you're like, okay, this is good stuff, what do I do with it? I would say, okay, strength training, right If.

Philip Pape: 11:16

If you're smaller, focus on the relative strength numbers. Don't get discouraged. If you're at absolute numbers, aren't as high as other lifters, like, don't compare yourself to other lifters, especially who are bigger than you. You know, I see that all the time. I'm like, don't get hung up on the number when somebody posts a win and they're like yeah, I just deadlifted four or five today, but you know there are six to 220 pound male. So if you're a 135 pound female and lifting um more relative to your size in that person, then you're you're kind of technically stronger in a way. Right, you're not absolute strength stronger, but you're relatively stronger, um. And then if you're larger, like, you can take advantage of that. When it comes to the absolute strength lifts, like the big lifts, you might be at a good advantage to really push those to compete to, to build up your bench and your deadlift and your press and focus, it might be a lot of fun, is what I'm saying because you have that advantage, right. So that's number one.

Philip Pape: 12:12

Number two when we talk about cardio and endurance, smaller individuals might have a little bit of an advantage because of their cross-sectional area being bigger relative to their mass, and so they have better heat dissipation and a slightly lower cost of movement. Now, that cost of movement can be a disadvantage for your metabolism. See, this is where it's like there's pros and cons to everything, right, whereas larger individuals might have more need to manage their heat during intense cardio. This is why larger people might sweat more, right, and might just feel hotter in general. It's not just because you're big. It also has to do with these relative scaling laws. Nutrition, right.

Philip Pape: 12:51

When we talk about nutrition, don't just rely on your body weight for calculating your energy needs, because there are relative differences between individuals and based on your size. And so, of course, I always recommend tracking your food, tracking your weight and letting that tell you in real life how many calories you burn. Best way to do that get Macrofactor. Download the app, install it, use my code, witsandweights. All one word, witsandweights. Start tracking. After about two to three weeks, you will know pretty precisely how many calories you burn, and then you can forget about comparing yourself to everyone else, self to everyone else.

Philip Pape: 13:29

The next thing that comes to mind is goal setting, because these scaling laws reassure you that there are realistic strength goals for you because of your body size and you're not aiming for absolute numbers. You might want to look up the relative strength standards based on your body weight, like 2x body weight for deadlift or 1.5x body weight for squats, things like that, and then you can use those as benchmarks to say, hmm, how close am I to that? And I remember, when it comes to pull-ups, if you're losing weight, you might actually be able to get more pull-ups just because you are lighter and you were picking up less weight. And you might be also relatively more stronger in a fat loss plays phase. Then you think, even though the weights aren't going up because you're losing weight, remember all those things. Um, and then finally, you can choose exercises.

Philip Pape: 14:11

You know movements that play to your body's strengths. Smaller individuals might excel at things like gymnastic style movements and the pull-ups and all that kind of fun stuff. Larger individuals might excel more at the traditional lifts. Now I'm saying I think everybody should lift heavy, that's for sure. Everybody should be doing compound movements, um, for a variety of reasons beyond the scope of today's episode.

Philip Pape: 14:32

But when you're looking for athletic um challenges, when you're looking for different modalities, when you're looking to compete, uh, all those kinds of things you know play around and see if your body size gives you a certain advantage. All right, so here's something that might surprise you Scaling laws. They don't just help you optimize training and nutrition. They are incredibly liberating psychologically, and that is why I wanted to make this episode, and maybe it doesn't surprise you anymore. That's just what I wrote down for my notes.

Philip Pape: 15:04

So how many times have you compared yourself to other people, right, and then felt discouraged? You see someone smaller than you lifting more, someone taller eating more without gaining weight? All the things we mentioned before. And because scaling laws explain why these differences exist, independent of other behavioral factors. They're perfectly natural. They're perfectly normal, and then you can stop comparing apples to oranges and you start appreciating your body's unique capabilities. Then you can set goals that are tailored to your individual potential. Stop comparing apples to oranges and you start appreciating your body's unique capabilities. Then you can set goals that are tailored to your individual potential rather than trying to meet arbitrary standards that might not be realistic at all for your body size. And this can be incredibly motivating, right? Realistic expectations in general can actually be incredibly motivating, because now you won't be frustrated or feel frustrated by some perceived but non-existent limitation. You can focus instead on maximizing your potential within the natural laws that govern your body. You're not trying to be better than someone else. You're trying to be the best version of yourself All right. So the next time you're tempted to to be better than someone else, you're trying to be the best version of yourself All right. So the next time you're tempted to compare your lifts, your metabolism, your diet to someone with a vastly different body size, remember the scaling laws we've discussed today. Because your body's unique, it operates according to its own set of rules based on its size All right.

Philip Pape: 16:26

If today's episode resonated with you, if you're ready to start applying some of these realistic expectations and understanding what they might be to your approach to training, your approach to nutrition, please schedule a call with me. I do free calls all the time. It's called a rapid nutrition assessment. It is not a sales pitch at all, at all. Okay, in fact, we have episode 199 coming up with a guy named Jazz. He's a 300 pound power lifter and it is a recording of that call where you can see exactly what it's like.

Philip Pape: 16:57

But rather than wait for that, why don't you give it a shot and reach out to me with the link in the show notes? Or go to witsandweightscom, click the big button on the top right and I've got you covered. All we're gonna do in that fast-paced 15 minutes is figure out where you are, what's the number one thing holding you back or where you're stuck, and give you some actions three actions at the end that you can put into place right away and get results within 90 days. That's it. That is my goal for you, and then you're gonna come back and say thank you so much.

Philip Pape: 17:24

You really helped change the trajectory of what I was trying to do, and now I can actually get unstuck and make some real progress. That is what I my wish for you. Remember, sometimes the difference between spinning your wheels and making that progress is understanding your body, understanding the laws of nature, understanding what you can accomplish. And then you go out there and you do it Until next time. Keep using your wits lifting those weights and remember, in fitness as in engineering, size matters sometimes, but knowledge matters more. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights Podcast.

Why Macros Might Be All You Need to Streamline Your Nutrition | Ep 194

Nutrition can be overwhelming: from calories and macros to saturated fats, fiber, micronutrients, and meal timing. But what if you ONLY tracked macros? Is that enough for a diet that supports your health and physique

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) breaks down why tracking macros might be all you need to rebalance your diet and set the stage for long-term success. If you're ready to streamline your nutrition without the headache of overcomplicating things, this episode is for you.

Philip dives into the basics of macro tracking, explaining how this flexible dieting approach can cut through the noise and provide a clear path to better nutrition. By focusing on just three targets, you can reduce mental fatigue, promote consistency, and prioritize what's most important for muscle building and fat loss.

Philip also shares an advanced tip for seasoned trackers who are feeling stuck. He recounts a client's story to illustrate how even those with experience can benefit from revisiting the basics.

Whether you're new to nutrition tracking or an experienced dieter, you'll find practical tips and insights to help you simplify your diet and make meaningful progress.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:33 Nutrition can be complicated
3:17 What tracking macros means
7:15 Steps to implement effective macro tracking
14:47 The significance of tracking macros in sustainable nutrition
18:23 Tip for the advanced trackers
20:09 Outro

Episode resources:

• Try MacroFactor free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS – Apple/iPhone or Google/Android

• Related episodes: 

  • Macros Aren’t Enough – Flexible Dieting vs. IIFYM | Ep 110

  • How to Get More Fitness Results for Less Effort (The Pareto Rule) | Ep 189

Episode summary:

Nutrition can be overwhelming with countless details to consider, from saturated fats and fiber to micronutrients and meal timing. What if there was a simpler way to kickstart your progress and maintain long-term consistency? Enter the If It Fits Your Macros (IIFYM) method, a flexible dieting strategy that focuses on tracking just the big three macronutrients: protein, carbs, and fats. This episode of Wits and Weights delves into the essentials of macro tracking and provides practical steps to transform your eating habits without the stress of perfecting every detail.

The IIFYM approach prioritizes the fundamentals, allowing you to let go of the nitty-gritty details and embrace a simpler, more effective way to manage your nutrition. By focusing solely on macronutrients, you reduce mental fatigue and increase adherence to your diet. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned tracker, this episode lays out the steps to calculate your calorie needs, set macro targets, and find a balance that works for you.

One of the key aspects of the IIFYM method is understanding the importance of protein intake. Protein is essential for building and preserving muscle, especially during fat loss. The episode provides tips on how to allocate your remaining calories between fats and carbs based on your goals and personal preferences. A suggested starting point is 30% of calories from fat, but this can be adjusted according to individual needs.

Tracking your intake is crucial for understanding your eating habits and making necessary adjustments. The episode emphasizes the importance of experimenting with different foods to fit your macros while maintaining satisfaction and balance. By tracking your macros, you can uncover patterns in your diet and identify areas that need improvement.

A significant benefit of macro tracking is its ability to simplify nutrition. By focusing on just three targets, you can reduce the mental load of tracking multiple dietary factors. This approach promotes consistency and adherence to your diet, making it easier to stick to long-term. The episode highlights that even if you're already familiar with detailed tracking, revisiting the basics can streamline and enhance your nutritional strategy.

In addition to simplifying your diet, macro tracking can also promote consistency. When you think of your diet in terms of numbers rather than good or bad foods, it becomes easier to stick to your plan. This flexible dieting approach allows for a more sustainable and enjoyable way to manage your nutrition.

The episode also explores advanced strategies through a revealing case study. By revisiting macro basics, even experienced trackers can address common issues such as imbalanced protein, fat, and carb intake. This case study demonstrates how a simplified approach can lead to significant improvements in energy levels, training performance, and overall well-being.

Listener feedback plays a crucial role in shaping the content of the show. The host emphasizes the importance of sharing thoughts and suggestions to ensure that the show continues to deliver valuable content. By engaging with listeners, the show can adapt and improve to meet their needs.

To get started with macro tracking, the episode provides simple steps to implement this approach. The first step is to calculate your calorie needs by tracking your food and weight for about two to three weeks. This data will help you determine your personal calorie needs, whether you want to maintain, gain, or lose weight.

Next, you set your macro targets, starting with protein. Aim for up to one gram of protein per pound of target body weight. For example, if you're 200 pounds and want to reach 180 pounds, aim for around 180 grams of protein. Allocate the rest of your calories to carbs and fats, starting with 30% of calories from fat and adjusting based on your preferences.

Once you've set your targets, track your intake without worrying about hitting the exact numbers. This process will give you a better understanding of your eating habits and help you identify areas that need rebalancing. By focusing on the big rocks, you can simplify your approach and promote consistency.

Experimenting with different foods to fit your macros is also an essential part of the process. By trying various foods, you can find what works best for you and what keeps you satisfied. The goal is to create a sustainable approach that allows for nutrition and enjoyment over the long term.

In conclusion, the IIFYM method offers a simplified approach to nutrition that focuses on the essentials: protein, carbs, and fats. By tracking these macronutrients, you can reduce mental fatigue, promote consistency, and achieve significant results without getting bogged down by unnecessary details. Whether you're new to tracking or looking to revisit the basics, this episode provides valuable insights and practical steps to help you master your nutrition strategy.

Listener feedback is highly encouraged, as it helps shape the content of the show. By sharing your thoughts and suggestions, you can ensure that the show continues to deliver valuable and relevant content. Join us for an episode packed with actionable advice to help you use your wits, lift those weights, and conquer life one macro at a time.

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:01

Maybe you've heard about tracking macros. But you've also heard experts say that usually not enough that you need to care about food quality and other factors. But if you're struggling with your nutrition to begin with, it can be even more overwhelming to worry about saturated fat fiber micronutrients, satiety, calorie density meal timing and even supplements. It's like trying to optimize 100 different parameters at once for the 5% before you've mastered the basics that will give you the 95%. What if I told you that sometimes just focusing on macros can be enough to kickstart your progress and streamline your entire approach to nutrition to make it easy and effective. Today, we're diving into why tracking only macros might be all you need to rebalance your diet, prioritize what's most important, and set the stage for long term success without getting bogged down in unnecessary complexity. If you're ready to streamline your nutrition, you're going to love this one.

Philip Pape  01:05

Welcome to wit's end weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, Philip Pape. And today we're tackling a topic that might bother those both in the intuitive eating and the flexible dieting camps. Why macros alone might be all you need to streamline your nutrition and get most of your results. And of course, if you want more content like this, hit the Follow button in your podcast app, so you never miss an episode. All right, let's just jump right into it. First, the elephant in the room. Nutrition can be complicated, really complicated. We've got macros, micro saturated fat, trans fat, fiber, glycemic index, index, nutrient timing, and a ton of misinformation to go along with that, like carbs are bad or protein is bad or fat is bad, right? The list goes on and on. And for a lot of people, especially those just starting out, that alone can be overwhelming, and cause you to just throw up your hands and say, All right, forget about this. And I've seen it time and time again, even with clients who have come to me and said, Look, I understand there's an approach that works. I want to learn that. And they come to me heads spinning with all this information, paralyzed by the fear of not doing everything perfectly. And then you know what happens, they end up doing nothing at all. Now, now these are assuming that they don't work with me. And we show them that no, you can actually simplify this process just like we talked about on the show. Otherwise, you get into that analysis paralysis, you know at its finest. But here's the thing. While all those details can matter, eventually, they're not always necessary right out of the gate. Sometimes we need to step back and focus on the fundamentals. Remember, I talked about the Pareto principle in a recent Wednesday episode about focusing on the 20% to get 80% of the effort. And that's where macro tracking comes in. So in this episode, first, I'm going to share why I think it's a great idea for many people, including some reasons that you might not have considered, then I'll give you some pointers on how to get started. And finally, I've got an advanced tip for those listening, who may have already been tracking much more than macros by this point. But you want to come at it from a fresh perspective. So stick around for that near the end of the episode. And so let's talk about what we mean by tracking macros, right? What is tracking macros? It is a type of flexible dieting approach, right? Just one type. Because flexible dieting, by definition has a flexible spectrum of approaches. Tracking macros focuses on hitting your daily targets for macro nutrients, protein, carbs, and fats. That's it, right? No food is off limits, as long as it fits within those goals. You might have heard it called If It Fits Your Macros, or I F YM. And interestingly, I covered this in Episode 110. From the opposite angle. In that episode, I was talking about why macro tracking alone isn't enough. And as always, it's about context. Because if you go listen to that episode, Episode 110, after you listen to today's episode, you'll notice they're entirely consistent with each other. And that the approach that you take depends on well, you right, that's the essence of flexibility, isn't it? And I mentioned this because I can already hear some of you saying, but Phillip, what about micronutrients? What about fiber? What about meal timing, you know, around my workouts, which you talk about all the time. Trust me, I get it, right, those things can be important. But let's strip it back. Are you even getting to the basic goals that you're going for here with your nutrition? Right? Because if you're not doing that, Why care about those things? First, here's why focusing on just macros can actually be a game changer for many people. And even some people who've gone beyond that by this point. I want to step back and give it a shot. First of all, it simplifies nutrition. You're just focusing on these three simple targets, right? And we're not talking about getting precisely the exact goal Hamza each every day, we're just talking about having either minimums or ranges to aim for. And this reduces the mental load of tracking a whole bunch of things, right? It just reduces friction and reduces mental fatigue. The second benefit of tracking just macros, it can promote consistency right out of the gate, right when your diet isn't this constant battle of, you know, good versus bad foods, which many of you may be in that head state right now. And you just think in terms of these cold, hard numbers, and any food goes within that, it's actually a lot easier to stick to long term. And by long term, I mean, even past the first week, or two, which is where a lot of people give up. The third benefit of tracking macros, it prioritizes, the big rocks, it's the 2080, or the 8020 principle at its core, right? We've got to hit our protein to build muscle and preserve muscle during fat loss, we got to have a certain amount of carbs for energy for recovery for performance, and we got to have fats for Hormonal Health. That's it. These are the heavy hitters that drive most of your results. Yes, calories are in there as well, because when we track macros, we're also tracking calories. But I'll tell you what, even if you weren't tracking calories, and you're just trying to get enough protein, that's still going to massively improve a lot of the other other things that later on, you want to track like food quality. The last thing, the last benefit, and perhaps most important one here is tracking macros is a nice simple stepping stone, it is a great way to first build a habit of awareness, right? Not even not even trying to hit the targets, just becoming aware of how much protein you eat, for example, before you dive into more complex nutritional strategies, in fact, it's where I want clients to be before I start working with them, so that we can take you to the next level and make the best use of our time together. And you might be surprised by that. Because I usually don't work with rank novices rank beginners who've never tracked before, I have kind of a filtering process. By the time you join Whitson weights physique university or I take you on as a client, you kind of already know the basics of tracking, maybe you're already using macro factor, you understand, you know, even even a little bit beyond that. But you're not just coming in cold, right? You're not coming in saying, Oh, I thought carbs are bad. I want you to be listening to this podcast and understanding that there is a flexible approach you can take. So it's a great stepping stone. So now how do you actually put this into practice? I think it's pretty simple, which is the whole point. Before I give you the steps, though, I want you to do yourself a favor, download macro factor. First, pause the episode, use the link in my show notes or search for macro factor all one word macro factor in your app store. Then enter my code Whitson weights to try it free for two weeks. Okay, my code, Whitson weights, that's wi TS wits, and end weights all spelled out all together, and you'll get it for two weeks. Again, this is all in the show notes for your convenience. But do yourself a favor, this is going to be a game changer for you not just for tracking macros, but for learning about your metabolism, and then eventually having the right macros for your goals. Alright, so here are the simple steps to implement macro tracking. Alright, so back to basics if you need a refresher, or if this is new to you. We're getting back to basics here. Number one, you've got to know your calorie needs. Okay, this is your starting point. Now, even though I said earlier, tracking macros is a great way to build awareness, you don't even have to hit targets, you still can use that data pretty quickly in short order within a couple of weeks to figure out your personal calorie needs, how much energy your body needs to maintain, to gain weight or to lose weight. And the simplest way to do this is to track your food and track your weight every day for about two to three weeks. Right? Just get into the habit of doing that. And the cumbersome way to do this is to then calculate it in a spreadsheet. And if you are if you're a geek, if you're a nerd like me, and you love numbers and spreadsheets go for it. The easy way is to guess what download macro factor and let it do it for you. And if you already took my advice earlier and did that you're ready to go. It's the only food logging app that can actually determine your true calorie target. Other apps chronometer, My Fitness Pal, and many others only estimate this and they do so pretty badly. They can be off by several hundreds of calories, which is why many many people use those apps and then they struggle to hit their goals. Because all they're doing is they're entering numbers and they're not actually determining what they really need. And then, when you've got that setup, this is still step one, determine your calorie needs. I recommend not trying to gain or lose weight until you've spent those three weeks just trying to figure out your maintenance calories, which again, if you use a macro factor, it's just going to do that for you. And all you need to do is log in food and weight. And here's what I want you to reach out to me if you get stuck on this first step. Alright, just reach out to me, you could reach out to me on Instagram at what's in weights. Or you can reach me in our Facebook group which is totally free. Alright. Also be patient. And don't worry about what the metabolism is until you've hit that three week mark. It could be higher or lower than you expect.

Philip Pape  10:00

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle, lose fat and finally look like they live. I've noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wit's end weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique. Or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique, I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest cleanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show. So that's number one is just calculating your calorie needs, then we have setting your macro targets. All right, protein is the one we start with. Because this is the game changer for most people, most people are getting far less protein than they need. And you want to aim for up to that one gram per pound of target body weight. So if you're 200 pounds, and eventually you're gonna try to get to 180, you want to be eating at least 100, like around 180 grams of protein, don't overcomplicate this, right, get in that ballpark, and you're good, you're probably currently eating way less than that. So just getting close, that is going to be a major improvement. And again, if you use the macro factor, you select high or extra high protein, you'll get right in that range, then you allocate the rest of your calories to carbs and fats. And this can vary widely based on your preferences and goals. I suggest starting at 30% of calories from fat, and the rest of them carbs. And then you can go up or down on the fat if that's your preference. And at the risk of sounding like a parrot macro factor will do this for you if you select a balanced approach. So we've got what are your calories, what is your protein, what are your fats and carbs, then you just track your intake, don't worry about hitting the targets. So this is where I'm repeating what I said before, just track your intake, and then see how it stacks up against your targets. And that will give you the reality based data that you need to know what needs rebalancing. Because you may have something pretty close to where you need, you don't have to worry about it. And something else is way off. And it might be off from day to day, or might be off every day. That's it. It's amazing how much you can learn about your eating habits that eventually will give you insights into all those other more detailed things I alluded to earlier, like your saturated fat, like your fiber, like your meal timing, it's all going to come out of that eventually. But we just start with the big rocks. Last step to tracking your macros is have fun, figuring out what foods are going to fit your macros without making you hungry. Ah, okay, so that's a sneaky little variable that I just added to the equation I get it adds a tiny, tiny bit of complexity, hunger, right to biofeedback we call hunger. But this is your chance to start experimenting, eating whatever you want to fit your macros. And what you're gonna find as you do that, is that certain types of foods, for example, more whole nutrient dense foods will tend to fit your macros better and satisfy you at the same time. But hey, if pizza or ice cream fit in there, and you feel great eating them, and you enjoy them, see what works have those in there. Like that's what I encourage is the experimentation and the feedback of how you feel when you eat these things while trying to hit your macros. Because your body is really it's what was I gonna say your body is is very much able to tell you what's going on, it's going to quickly give you feedback on what makes sense. And then the things like micronutrients, fiber and so on, will naturally start to get rebalanced. You know, in some cases, they will and that's okay, that'll be step 234 later on, but you're gonna get a lot into a lot better food quality and kind of healthy dietary pattern than you've ever been before. Just because you're trying to get these macros lined up, especially driven by protein and having balance. Those are very important. And there's other things you know that you can get complicated like gut health and whatever, that again start to get resolved when you have enough protein and balance. All right. Now, the elephant in the room here The caveat is that theoretically, you can hit your macros eating nothing but protein shakes and pop tarts are nothing but you know, meat lovers pizza with a little bit of vegetables. But that's not the point. The goal here is to create a sustainable approach that allows for nutrition and enjoyment over the long term. And tracking only macros is just Don't wait to ignore all the noise and focus on the simplicity of balance before you then move on to more fine tuned optimization, I think it's a very reasonable stair step, like I mentioned earlier. So macro tracking, like anything else is a tool, it's just a tool, just like a budget is a tool for your money. If you use it wisely, it's going to teach you a lot about your eating habits and behaviors. And thus, you'll know exactly what needs to change. And that is the kind of clarity and confidence that most people don't have. Now, for that advanced tip that I mentioned earlier, as we wrap up the episode, even when working with very experienced clients, I often start with them by revisiting these basics, these macro tracking basics, because they are that important. And I had a client recently, let's call him John, he came to me frustrated with his lack of progress. And by that I usually mean inability to lose fat, right kind of the beer gut and a little bit of extra weight and already lifting weights, but still not getting the physique and the health of the want. And he was actually tracking a lot of things. He was already tracking macros, tracking supplements, he was asking questions about creatine, and mealtime, and what should I eat about my workout around my workouts? What kind of supplements should I get? But then I said, Hey, just send me some screenshots of your food log, please. You know, he was even using macro factor, right. And I saw that his protein and fats had gradually increased at the expense of carbs. Okay, like he didn't even realize he was actually eating a ton of protein. And again, especially bigger mail clients who eat a lot of meat, you'll see this pattern using a ton of protein and fat. And there were like fatty cuts of meat and high fat, dairy, and whatever. So it ended up being a lot of protein and fat. And the carbs are actually pretty low. They were like close to 100 grams, which for him being on over 3000 calories was was very low. And then he was hitting some walls in his training and recovery. After heavy lifting sessions. He's like, man, I've wiped. And I'm really having trouble pushing it and getting the reps. Even when I'm not dieting, you know, I'm not in a calorie deficit. And so we just stripped everything back to basics, right? I advise them, let's just rebalance your meals this week, and hit your protein, fats and carbs targets again. But really focus on the carbs this time, because it just wasn't balanced. Focus on that for a month. Let's see what happens. So what happened, of course, he started to feel much better his lifts started to move his sleep and recovery improved in in his biofeedback to me, that his ratings that that I collect a lot of data. By the way, when I work with clients, we collect a lot of data to know what's going on and be very proactive about it. And he didn't have to worry about meal timing or supplements or creatine, he just had to get his carbs back up. His energy in the gym went up his stressful and down, because we simplified the process. He was like, Man, this is I don't know why I overcomplicate things, but I do. And that's it. It's a very stripped down easy change. But it doesn't mean it's obvious to everyone, right? You may be in the weeds and not even know it. And you may be hitting macros every day, consistently. But they're not the right ones, or they're not balanced for you. Right? You may have gotten like, No, I'm getting my protein every day. And then my fats and carbs are consistent every day. But what if one of those isn't what you need? Right? So I'd like to think that by you know, having me in his corner as a coach, I was able to see a pattern that he wasn't seeing, even though the solution seems very simple. And that's the power of mastering the basics before diving into complexities. So my tip for all of you advanced trackers out there that, you know, think you know, at all, because trust me, I've been there is to ask yourself, Is my simple macro balance, right for me? Is there something I can nudge or rebalance to unlock my next phase of progress? Even better? Can I just ignore some of the minutiae for a while and focus on macros, and see if that overcomes a roadblock for me and go back and listen to the episode we did recently about the Pareto rule or the Pareto principle where we talked about sometimes you just you're putting way too much effort into something to get very little for it, and you might need to just strip it down. Alright, so as we wrap up, let's recap the main points. Number one, tracking macros, while while it's not perfect, right? It's not the 99%, it gets you to the 90 95% or even 80%. It's an excellent starting point for many people. Number two, it allows you to focus on the most important aspects of nutrition, which is energy balance, and macro composition, which goes a ton goes a long way toward what you're trying to achieve. Building muscle losing fat, right, that's where it's at, and then a lot of the other health stuff tends to work itself out. Number three, by simplifying your approach, you're more likely to be consistent, a wonderful combination, right? And that's the key to long term success, consistency. patience, flexibility. Last thing, remember, you can always add complexity later if needed. Like if you're at 80%. You want to get to 90%. And it takes a little bit of extra effort to get there and you want to make that trade off. Go for it. Right. But Master the basics first.

Philip Pape  19:57

All right, if you found value in today's episode That's really all I have for you guys. Like, that's as simple as it is. If you thought there was something magic or secret in this there isn't. But I think the simplicity of this approach is itself the secret. So do me a favor. If you like this, send me a text message, using the link in the show notes where it says, Send me a text message. Let me know what you thought about this simplified approach. Or if you have any questions that you want me to address in future episodes, like a future q&a, because when I hear from you, I just light up, I get a smile on my face. It's not like we have millions of people clamoring to send me messages, please send me a message. And I don't want to sound desperate either. So if you don't want to send me a message, that's fine. Your feedback really does absolutely help shape the content of the show. I mean, everything I put in the show my blood, sweat, soul, heart, whatever is for you. And the changes that I make tend to be based on what you tell me you're getting out of the show and delivering what you want. Alright, until next time, keep using those weights. Please keep lifting those weights and keep taking it one day, one calorie at a time, one macro at a time. I'll talk to you next time here on the wits and weights podcast.

The Extreme Cost of a Lean, Ripped Body and Visible Abs with Brittany & James Gatewood | Ep 193

What does it ACTUALLY take to achieve a lean, ripped, shredded physique?

Join Philip (@witsandweights) as he welcomes Brittany and James Gatewood, the powerhouse couple behind the "Macros, Mindset, and Muscles" podcast, for an in-depth conversation about the physical and mental demands of achieving extreme leanness.

In this episode, Philip and his guests explore the rigorous journey of bodybuilding and fitness competitions. From the meticulous planning and unwavering discipline to the significant lifestyle adjustments, they lay out the real costs of getting stage-ready. Brittany and James share their personal experiences, including the sacrifices, challenges, and ultimate rewards of pushing their bodies and minds to the limit. Together, they discuss the importance of having a solid lifting foundation and the impact of extreme fitness routines.

Brittany started her fitness journey to become healthier for her children, and James began as a "hard gainer" looking to build muscle. Now, they use their expertise to coach and inspire others through Phoenix Transformations.

Tune in to discover if you're ready to take on the challenge and achieve extraordinary goals.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:29 Cost of achieving and maintaining a lean physique
5:06 Setting realistic expectations for fitness goals
7:02 Breakdown of the physical and mental demands of bodybuilding prep
11:47 Prep duration and the role of refeeds and diet breaks in a prep phase
15:02 The impact of metabolic adaptation and the importance of monitoring progress
21:06 Lifestyle adjustments, extreme adherence, and tips for staying on track
25:12 Sustainable practices for long-term leanness
27:36 Tracking progress and making adjustments
30:47 Symptoms and health risks associated with extreme leanness
36:26 Prerequisites for considering a bodybuilding competition
42:34 Long-term health risks of staying very lean
43:55 Real-life client success story and the benefits of a structured plan
45:35  Additional costs and considerations for competing in bodybuilding
48:57 How to connect with Britanny and James
49:36  Outro

Episode resources:

• Get your free meal prep guide (scroll to bottom) at transformwithphoenix.com.

• Podcast: Macros, Mindset, and Muscles

Episode summary:

What does it truly take to achieve a shredded physique? This question is often clouded by the glossy, edited photos that flood social media feeds. In this insightful episode, Brittany and James Gatewood, the dynamic duo behind the Macros Mindset and Muscles podcast, dive deep into the physical, mental, and emotional demands of extreme fitness goals. As seasoned bodybuilding coaches, they shatter the myths about quick transformations and unveil the rigorous journey required to achieve such a physique.

Achieving a shredded body is far from a walk in the park. It involves substantial lifestyle changes, relentless dedication, and an understanding of the long-term health implications. Brittany and James discuss how extensive the preparation for a bodybuilding competition can be, highlighting the necessity of consistency and extreme measures. The training schedules often demand at least five days of workouts per week, supplemented with up to two hours of cardio daily. Moreover, the diet is equally stringent, often requiring calorie restrictions that can dip below 1200 calories for women. The couple emphasizes the importance of strategic diet breaks and the intricacies of prep cycles, which can span anywhere from 20 weeks to over a year.

However, the physical demands are only one side of the coin. The mental and emotional toll of extreme leanness can be equally challenging. Symptoms such as frequent illness, digestive issues, and hormonal imbalances are not uncommon. Brittany and James underscore the importance of having a solid foundation in lifting before embarking on such a demanding journey. They also shed light on the often-overlooked costs and preparations required for competitive bodybuilding, including expenses for coaching, health monitoring, posing, tanning, and competition suits.

The Gatewoods provide a comprehensive view of the entire bodybuilding journey, from training and tanning to the mental and physical costs of extreme fitness goals. They discuss the misconceptions people often have about achieving a shredded physique, such as the belief that it is easy or quick. In reality, it requires changing almost every aspect of one's lifestyle and maintaining that level of dedication for an extended period. The episode also touches on how to evaluate whether pursuing such extreme fitness goals aligns with one's broader life objectives and how to transition from extreme dieting to a more balanced, sustainable lifestyle.

One of the key takeaways from this episode is the importance of understanding the demands of bodybuilding prep. The necessity of a strict diet and the inevitability of constant hunger are emphasized, especially for women who face more extreme calorie deficits. The couple also discusses the varying lengths of prep cycles, which can range from 20 weeks to over a year, depending on individual circumstances and goals. Strategic diet breaks are crucial in this intense and temporary phase of achieving single-digit body fat levels.

In addition to the physical demands, the episode delves into the mental and emotional challenges faced by individuals pursuing extreme leanness. Frequent illness, digestive issues, disrupted sleep, decreased sex drive, and hormonal imbalances are some of the symptoms that can arise from such extreme dieting and training. Despite these hardships, the sense of accomplishment and mental resilience gained from pushing one's body to its limits can be incredibly motivating. The Gatewoods stress the importance of having a solid foundation in lifting and a consistent gym routine before embarking on such a demanding endeavor.

The episode also explores the costs and requirements of competitive bodybuilding. Having a coach is essential for navigating the extreme and regimented nature of the sport. The importance of understanding the differences between natural and enhanced leagues and the health monitoring required during and after competition prep, such as regular blood work, is highlighted. The couple uses real-life examples to illustrate how proper off-season building phases can significantly improve competition outcomes. They also touch on the high expenses associated with competitive bodybuilding, including posing, tanning, and competition suits.

Overall, this episode is a must-listen for anyone considering the journey to a shredded physique or curious about the realities behind extreme fitness transformations. Brittany and James Gatewood provide valuable insights and practical advice, debunking common misconceptions and revealing the truth behind those jaw-dropping before-and-after photos on social media. Their expertise and first-hand experiences offer a realistic view of what it takes to achieve and maintain a lean, shredded body.

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Transcript

Brittany Gatewood  00:01

It's a huge accomplishment, it's proving to yourself that I can do hard things if you can push your body and push yourself and your mind because there's a lot of mental in this as well, to follow the plan and stick to your goal and accomplish that goal. Even if you don't win, you still got on stage and you're still doing something that 99% of the population can't do. It's just showing that you're capable of great things.

James Gatewood  00:27

When I first did my first show, it was like, what in my entire life have I dedicated 100% of everything that I do it to one thing, Bernie extended period of time like what is possible? What could I do

Philip Pape  00:45

Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of the wits and weights Podcast. Today I am pumped to welcome Brittany and James Gatewood, a married couple and the dynamic duo behind the macros mindset and muscles podcast, and the founder and head coaches of Phoenix transformations. Now Brittany and I connected through one of our mentors, and we realize why don't we bring together our expertise to you, dear listener through a guest swap on both of our shows. So I want you to go ahead and check out and follow their podcast macros mindset of muscles, which I'm gonna link to in the show notes if you want even more practical advice, motivational stories, because fitness doesn't have to be frustrating, right? We all want to be more clear and confident with our fitness and health. So that's what they're all about. James is a hard gainer he got into fitness because he was always a thin guy. Brittany was obese and got into fitness to live a healthier life for her kids. They met on Instagram. Pretty cool. You don't hear that happening too often. And they encourage each other's journeys. Now they combined their personal experience and professional expertise to coach and inspire others. So we've got a fun topic today. Especially if you're considering getting shredded. If you thought I want to compete. I just want to get jacked. I want six pack abs. Hold on. Listen to this show, I invited Brittany and James on to discuss the extreme realities of doing that of achieving and maintaining a lean, ripped physique. We'll explore the significant physical and mental demands, the lifestyle adjustments, the long term health implications that come with striving for visible abs. And we're not saying it's a bad thing. But we're going to lay out the realities for you today, our discussion will cover sustainable practices, but the impact of extreme fitness routines on mental health, social life and how to transition from extreme dieting to a balanced healthy lifestyle. Brittany, James, welcome to the show.

Brittany Gatewood  02:27

Thanks for having us. Glad to be here.

Philip Pape  02:29

So let's just jump right in and talk about this whole getting lean thing, right. And maybe talk about the cost of it from the context of the misconceptions, right? Somebody comes to you, maybe a client, maybe somebody in the podcasts are like, Yeah, you know, I've been lifting weights, maybe they haven't yet, but let's just assume I'm a guy, I'm 20% body fat. I'm a female, I'm 30%. And I want to compete in physique competition, or I want to be, you know, beach ready, I just want to be the most jacked, ripped, you know, great looking person on the beach. And you're like, yeah, that's easy, right? Well, what are the misconceptions people have about this?

Brittany Gatewood  03:02

Yeah, we totally lead with that. Like, it's totally easy. You should do it, like, jump right in right now. Just go for it. I think really, the reality is, is people think it's easy. You know, they idolize people they see on social media, you know, their favorite Instagram influencer, or, you know, professional athletes, bodybuilders, things like that. And they're like, I want to look like that. And, you know, they might see that person's before and after picture. And they're like, they did it. So I can do it, not realizing how much time in between those two photos like has taken place, and also the methods at which those results were obtained. So there is a big cost of achieving those results. You know, and talking about some of this? Well, I think

James Gatewood  03:47

a lot of people think that, oh, there's just, I had to change this little aspect of my life, and then I'll get these great results, not the reality of the having to change everything, like for it to go to the extremes. And like she was saying that the amount of time and how long of a period of time that you have to stick to these things, to hit those goals and to achieve that look. And it's only for a very short period of time. Like she said, a lot of people that you're seeing on social media has dieted down for like months and months and months. And then they took all these photos that they post all year long. They don't stay at that weight. They don't maintain that level of sharpness for very long.

Philip Pape  04:23

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, no. I mean, we allude to the before and after pictures on IG all the time, right? Now, the algorithm is so nefarious, for good reason. They want you to engage as much as possible and sell you ads. And I know if I just if I tap something that just catches my eye. For the next like 10 days, every image is an extreme version of that. So if it's like, oh, this person looks good. I'm just gonna look at that picture. And all of a sudden, you get the extreme. And when you look behind the scenes, you realize that they're associated with oftentimes these promotional profiles and these scammy profiles isn't right. It's not even real. A lot of it isn't but then at the same time, many of us follow have legitimate bodybuilders and competitors and people who train and work hard at doing this. And it is legitimate. I guess before we get into the details of the specific costs, when somebody wants to do this, how do we step back and even look at that goal in the first place? Like how do we put their goal in context of whether it's really a goal they should be pursuing? How they evaluate those goals? You know, what I'm saying? Like to question whether you should do it at all from that perspective.

Brittany Gatewood  05:25

So I think this is actually a great like, question because a lot of people just jump into this blindly, they have zero expectation of what it actually takes what the process entails, of the sacrifices that you'll make the things that you'll miss out on, you know, while you're preparing for this, and the costs, like the actual financial costs associated with like, a competition prep. So having those conversations with somebody who does express interest in this type of aesthetic goal, you know, setting those realistic expectations is I think, a big key to long term success. Because if they know everything going in, then they can decide like this is for me, I'm financially in a good place. I can financially afford this. I have the time to dedicate to this goal. You know, I'm okay with eating my meal prep all when I go to social events, I won't be peer pressured, I don't have a problem with alcohol. All these things like play a big role in your success for achieving like this level of leanness. Does that answer your question? Yeah,

Philip Pape  06:32

yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. So just for the listener, you know, it's one on two here. And, you know, they know, this is it's not super common. It's fun, though. So we're trying to navigate like, who answers what, so feel free to like, jump in whenever you to James, if you ever want to jump in? Otherwise, I'm happy to? Oh,

James Gatewood  06:47

she's definitely the more of the talker on the Yes, yes. I agree with a lot of things. And then I'll chime in from time to time.

Philip Pape  06:55

That's wisdom. That's wisdom. And you're the quiet wise type, I get it, I get it usually need that, like the tensile workout in the relationship. Okay, so it's interesting, Brittany, because you mentioned, you mentioned the demands that maybe some people don't think about financial time, social events, things like that. And they're probably extreme versions of some of the trade offs we make. Anyway, when we're in, for example, a fat loss phase. But I really want the listener to understand the differences. So maybe let's just outline like the list of some of the physical demands, and the mental demands, from what we think of as a typical fat loss phase where you're in a 500 calorie deficit or something which most people can understand that, you know, you cut out a snack, or you reduce the scale things down, you have some more fiber and nutrient dense foods in there. Maybe a little bit fewer indulgences. And you're good, right? And it's kind of a sustainable thing. You do it for 1216 weeks, you're done. What is this look like? If we want to get shredded? I mean, what is that? First of all, is that like, sub 10%? For a male, like, maybe we should give it some parameters? And then really, what are some of the big physical demands?

Brittany Gatewood  08:00

Yeah, so you want to talk about

James Gatewood  08:03

some of the physical stuff. So the physical side effects now

Brittany Gatewood  08:06

like the the main

James Gatewood  08:08

demands, yeah, well, like going into a prep situation to get to those sub 10 bodyfat it's like men were men, personally, like getting down to 5% it takes a lot. It's a lot. We're looking at, you know, training, at least, you know, five days of training a week, we're looking at possibly two hours or plus cardio a week a day. Yeah, sorry. Two hours of cardio per day, every day that there are no even all

Philip Pape  08:40

rest days and define what you mean by current because we're not talking about just walking so steady state

James Gatewood  08:45

cardio, so you know that that's a walking on an incline at a decent pace, and make spin bike you know, we don't do a lot of times it's not gonna be running a secondary high intensity things, but it's just gonna be time consuming. When it comes to diet, you know, like in the lifestyle sense, like you kind of operate on an 8020 rule, you know, 80% Clean 20% lacks, there's no 8020 You got to be 100% on your diet every single day. You have to hit your water goals 100% Every single day, and there is the end like you're talking about like with the normal fat loss phase, there's gonna be some times when you're uncomfortable, you're gonna feel hunger in a prep going to that little leanness you are always hungry. You will always be hungry when you eat, right after you eat while you're eating you. Your constant state of of hunger and you're fighting your body because your body wants to

Brittany Gatewood  09:40

power that store fat for famine. Yeah, like

James Gatewood  09:44

you were purposely starving your body to achieve those single digit body fat. And

Brittany Gatewood  09:51

to add to that, you know, with like the calorie restriction with a normal lifestyle client, you know, you might restrict like you said like 500 calories. is when you are doing an extreme level of leanness when you're trying to get started for a show, you're hitting levels that you hear all the time, don't eat that little, you know, like, you're gonna lose muscle. Yeah, especially as a female, like more than likely like there are women just starting out bodybuilding, the likelihood of you getting under 1200 calories is extremely high. And most women aren't in a good place calorically when they start competing. So you have that working against you as well, because that, you know, that part is important

Philip Pape  10:34

to work with you. Yeah. Yeah. And I've heard from, you know, very successful natural bodybuilder men, you know, like, Dr. Eric helms has been on the show a couple times, that even they're using around 15 1800. Like, and they're doing everything right, you know, what I mean? They're, like, have a lot of muscle doing everything right. Does that sound about right? I know, James, you work more with male clients? Or did they get even tighter than that? I mean,

James Gatewood  10:56

it all comes down to the individual and the how, of course, and how far they're willing to push it, you know, but there's a range, I would say, you know, you tried to balance that out with the activity level. So instead of dropping the food so low, we're gonna increase more cardio, which is why you start getting into those, you know, multiple hours of steady state cardio. It's very unpleasant, but I mean, sometimes that's what it requires to achieve that level of leanness. Yeah, I

Philip Pape  11:23

think the common refrain is going to be here, and the listeners gotta get this through their head. This is an extreme temporary, like you're going after, it's like a David Goggins type of thing, right? Like, it's exactly your sacrifice, you literally are sacrificing. This isn't just the Oh, you make trade offs and good choices. This is like, you're going all the way, you're probably harming your body in some state. I hate to put it that way. But I mean, you're like temporarily, you know, in an unhealthy state. So I have a whole bunch of questions, but just to keep it organized. What's the typical duration for a prep where you're actually in a deficit? And then what kind of adaptation do we see from the beginning to the end, like when someone starts? And then by the end of it, what does it look like? So

Brittany Gatewood  12:03

that depends again, on the person, you know, I will speak for me, for example, okay, I am in a prep right now for next year. I am a short person, I have more mass than like a taller, like, I'm just compact, you know, so I tend to hold more body fat, and I bombed my reverse, which we can talk about that are later but you know, I bombed by reverse coming out of the last show. So I put on body fat really quick. Now, because of that my preps have to be longer. Because you don't want to do too much too fast. It has to be a slow, it's a slow burn, you know, like you're losing a little bit of fat each week, with strategic like diet breaks. So I'm looking at 54 plus weeks in this cycle, with some breaks. But you know, an average competitor, like a woman starting out, I have a client currently competing or going to compete in October and her first prep is going to be about 26 weeks by the end of it

Philip Pape  13:01

turns 26. So half a year. What did you say yours is?

Brittany Gatewood  13:04

Mine is over a year, a year? Okay. Yeah. The last show that we did, I was in prep for 46 weeks. James is like a 20. Week.

James Gatewood  13:13

Well, so then even if the 20 week, I'm not even into a calorie deficit until I'm within 16 weeks or so or less. It takes a lot of effort for me to actively keep weight on and to size. So majority of my prep is building up because I shed weight very quickly. So I don't have to die as long as we are the exact opposite. You know, she's having to eat less and less and less. I'm having to eat more and more and more. And that makes married life fun. situation.

Philip Pape  13:46

It's like Jack sprat you know, like you got two peas on this plate over here and you got like the whole buffet over here. Yeah,

Brittany Gatewood  13:52

his birthday last prep. Okay, sides sidenote, but he had a birthday in one of our last preps and for his birthday I'm not even kidding you. I made him this like beautiful Suvi seared on the grill. ribeye was two pounds. And I had to sit there and watch him eat this ribeye that I cooked him while I was eating like a whites.

Philip Pape  14:17

You can even have like some sirloin or so I smelled it. Alright, so yeah, that's a great point on the differences between individuals, men and women size, you know, based on your size, and you've alluded to like you have this improvement season right? We take a periodization that applies to everyone, even if you are going after this goal where you have to spend some time building the muscle and being at this healthier, quote unquote healthier state before you do the slow burn, which as you said was anywhere from 16 to upwards of nine months or more depending on how at the rate you go and how long you need to lose the weight and people listening to that. I mean to put that in perspective. Some people listening might be a chronic yo yo Dieter, that's a different situation. We want to get them out of that. But for those who are familiar with a typical fat loss phase, what are we talking 12 to 16 weeks and you start to get tired of it, like you start to get really tired of it after like week eight to 12 unit, if you're doing things quote unquote, right, in addition to the length and the duration, and we'll get to strategic breaks and all that. What is the metabolic adaptation look like, just because you've lost the mass, your hormones are adapting, like, I don't know, if we can maybe give numbers or percentages or whatever, it doesn't matter. If somebody starts at a, you know, 1800 Calorie metabolism? where might they end up by the end of the diet? Again,

Brittany Gatewood  15:32

it depends on the person. Me 1100 Easy,

Philip Pape  15:37

so you don't make sense. So like a 700 college job or something, I'm a

Brittany Gatewood  15:40

short person anyways. So my calorie intake isn't as high as you know. So you might end up

James Gatewood  15:48

around real like 2300 Yeah, at the lowest right, leading into it, and then, like, I have a client, now that's also gonna be doing the same show that we're doing now. And currently, I already have him up to, I think it's 2900 calories, and we're gonna always, I'm not just gonna keep increasing that, so. But he has a similar body style as mine, where he can drop away, quit. But we need to build up, you know, so we're gonna spend all this time building up so that when we do cut calories, his calories will never be that low. And he'll be able to drop the weight pretty quickly.

Philip Pape  16:21

Now, are you unhappy with that ability to drop weight? Quickly? Is this a result of having built muscle mass over time? Or is it a little bit more genetic, like just how you respond, this is

James Gatewood  16:29

just genetic, I was always very thin, it takes a lot of effort for me to put on sighs like when she can, she can grow his muscle way faster than I do. I mean, I will have to put in, you know, lots of calories, lots of training, and with no mistakes, and then she can just, you know, be in a slight calorie surplus, and she's grown stronger and stronger and stronger. Like, I'm jealous. And in the gaming aspect, because it's hard for me to do that. Right. But then when it comes down to leaning down for a show, she, you know, struggles and then that's where a, you know, does come in handy with my metabolism.

Philip Pape  17:03

Yeah, it's definitely helps to know this and about yourself, right and track and have that awareness. And I've seen that client of mine, a male client who never had gone through a fat loss phase, it was like, three pounds a week just dropping off with like, very little effort. And you're like, Okay, he's like, should I go? Should I keep going aggressively? I'm like, you feel great. Yeah, I feel okay, then that's, that's telling you right there. And others, it's like, you start to move the needle just a little bit in, you're starving to death. So what about the rate of loss? So here's what I'm curious about. I typically talk about like the point two, five to 1% body weight per week, I don't know if you talk in percent per week, or like percent deficit, where we know like, 50% is like extreme and then like, 10 to 20 is kind of normal. What? What deficit are we looking at in that perspective, and what rate of loss

Brittany Gatewood  17:46

so we don't do percentages? Okay, we do like we're looking at a pound per week, roughly. So anywhere from a half pound to one pound per week, on average, you know, sometimes it might be more, sometimes I'd be less over the course of the duration. So like, if we look at, you know, the number of weeks that we've been in prep situation, like for fat loss, like, even with like a lifestyle client, this is how we look at it. So it's not really any different in that aspect. You don't want to lose too much fat in one week, or too much weight in one week, you want to retain that muscle mass. And it's the same kind of idea in a prep, because when you get on stage, you're not getting judged by how much you weigh. You're getting judged by your muscle mass, and how that muscle mass is presented on stage. Yeah. So if you lose a bunch of muscle mass, you know, just trying to weigh less in the process, like you're only hurting yourself, for

Philip Pape  18:45

sure. So that's a good clarification, right? Because if if someone is a lifestyle client, and maybe just wants to do a mini cut, you might go more aggressively because the duration short. But if you're doing this slow burn, you're saying a pound a week, which is usually around 500 calories a day deficit is reasonable. However, it's a long time, right? So that's where it could get tiring. And

Brittany Gatewood  19:06

you're keeping in mind the metabolic adaptations? Yes, all along the way. And now you're

Philip Pape  19:09

eating less and less and less. So then how do you break that up and plan for that? Right? If you've got 48 weeks, like you, I'm guessing it's not just completely linear, the whole layout, right? We have some refeeds diet breaks in there.

Brittany Gatewood  19:21

Yeah. 100%. So I have been cutting now, since April. And April. I'm not afraid to talk about my weight. I was 177. And April, I'm down to 160 On average right now and I lost two months. Yeah. I look at the average, you know, weekly. We're getting ready to go on our honeymoon and a couple of weeks. So we're gonna go to Jamaica. That's my first diabetic congratulations, which was the plan all along was like we're going to Jamaica. I don't want to miss out on anything. I want to try all the food. I want to have fun. We're going to be active anyways. You're always you usually more active than you realize on vacation. So that was the first planned diet break. And then we come back, he's gonna go into a building phase, I'm gonna stay cutting until I start training for completely not the same thing. I'm running a marathon at the end of the year. Okay. Interesting. At that point, I'll go to maintenance. But I'll probably that'll keep increasing just to maintain where I am true, right?

Philip Pape  20:25

Because you'll be burning so many more calories. Yeah, for that. That's an interesting one. You know, I mean, I definitely did. I've heard some competitors who will do powerlifting and bodybuilding but not often the endurance extreme, like endurance. And I like to defy the odds. I'm sure you'll get it. I'm sure you get it done. And yeah, you'll have that like strength to weight ratio going for you there right with all the muscle and have cut down and wait. Yeah, super fast.

Brittany Gatewood  20:47

I actually am a lot faster when I'm lean. Like, I've run some races previously, like in prep, I did a 10k. One time, I mean, I've run a lot of races. I was a runner before I did bodybuilding, and I would PR them just because you're leaner, your endurance is better, right? Like you don't have as much body fat holding you down. Yeah,

Philip Pape  21:07

that makes a lot of sense. So, you know, you mentioned practicality, like your trip and aligning the brakes with that, which is always a great practice. The question I have, and maybe this is for James, because you mentioned the 100%, like, not at 20. But like 100 to zero is gotta be your your adherents, or we use at 20 a lot of different ways, right? One way is just say like 80%, Whole Foods, 20%, whatever you want, or 80%, consistent, you know, 20%, maybe flex less consistent, tell us about the more extreme level of adherence and consistency we need. And then how do you do that?

James Gatewood  21:41

Oh, so that, for me, in my experience, and what works best for me, you know, some, some clients work better on macros, and they can kind of adjust their foods and things like that. For me, I work and function better, like on a meal plan. So I'm literally eating the same foods, the same portions every single day, you know, in the offseason, or when you know, further out from the shop can be a little more more flexible. We can make substitutions, you know, things like that. But it's the preparation, when it comes to like meals is going to be the key. Because even when you're tracking food, and you're going out and you're ordering food from like certain establishments, and they have the macros listed, and all those things, you're still trusting someone else to do the measuring, you know, you don't know how accurate there really is, you'll know if they went a little heavy on the oil when they made it this time. And, and it's all these little small details that you know, in the end, you may look like hey, I'm hitting all these numbers. Do you know, why am I not progressing? But if you're, you know, you get to eliminate all these factors that could be thrilling. You're playing off. So being very onpoint on nutrition. That's just key. So it's eating home food all the time. For me. It's nothing

Brittany Gatewood  22:59

that food. Unless you're a man, you have me.

James Gatewood  23:04

Yes, he does the cooking.

Philip Pape  23:05

Yeah. So let me let me ask you, when you so when you do go to a restaurant sounds like you occasionally do and again, we're talking. Maybe you could do it more than Brittany can at the level of calories or whatever. How do you? Do you limit? Like what kind of restaurant you choose? Do you look at the restaurant menu ahead of time and like plan out what you're going to eat? Do you bring a like travel scale to the restaurant? Like how neurotic are we because let's use that word you kind of have to be about some of this.

James Gatewood  23:29

So like in the in the cutting phase, when I'm really in it, there is no eating out. Okay, there's no so if I'm going to eat out if we are going to eat out this when we are having a free meal. So there is no need to weigh or measure it. This is a diet break. This is a refeed meal. This is whatever it is, if it's a mental break meal, you have like you we've been on the ground, you've been eating this specific foods for so long. That's what that is so that you know it's planned out. This isn't just willy nilly. Oh, you know, I don't feel like chicken and rice and green beans today. I'm gonna have a pizza. That doesn't happen. You just can't do that.

Philip Pape  24:06

Yeah, no, no, it makes sense, do you? When you first set up your entire phase? Looking ahead? How much of a planner Are you? Like, do you say, once a week I want to allow for refeed therefore, I'm going to distribute my calories in a way that does that or do you just adjust your week leading up to like a Saturday? What's your preferred method?

James Gatewood  24:23

I've done two different ways I've done where their weekly refeeds were, you know, on Saturday and Sunday, my carbs are higher and my fats are lower and I just carb up on the weekends. That's a really unpleasant way to eat on the weekends when your fats are extremely low and you know, then your carbs are high and you're just stuck with more rice and potatoes. Yeah, that kind of thing is more bland. Yeah, yeah, it's more of like looking at the pictures looking at the data looking at how I'm feeling if I'm getting really worn down. It's been seven 810 14 days, you know, typically depending on how what phase it is, you know, not going more than like 14 days without Some type of refeed until you start getting really close, and then you just you just had to grind it out like you are just, you're just gonna grind it until, you know, it's so Tom, pretty much. I

Philip Pape  25:12

mean, people are listening like, this sounds really exciting. This is what? No, but if you're thinking like, this is what has to get done. Now, because you're a competitor competing in something here, even if you're not competing, right? Even if it's a lifestyle thing that you're trying to get shredded, what about how about any other nonlinear dieting strategies you've used either for yourself or with clients who are prepping, maybe five to modified fast like carb cycling any of those you get into.

Brittany Gatewood  25:36

So what we honestly like to do is a free meal, because when you do like a structured refeed, like it's still kind of like falling into like guidelines. But when you tell a client like I have a client, that's three weeks out from stepping on stage, it's our second show, she competed in the beginning of May. And she was really close to getting that overall. So we want to like, go a little further. But like with her, you know, I'm looking at her stuff, and I'd like her to have a weekly refeed. But the reality is, she's super close. And that just doesn't happen. But further out, we like to implement like a free meal, here and there just for like a mental break.

James Gatewood  26:16

And that's a big thing, the mental break. I mean, when you're in there monotonous. Just the same food, the same routine, the same training, the same water amount, the same going to bed at the same time waking up at the same time. I mean, you were a machine, when you're in that everything you do is just repetitive, repetitive and just hitting it, checking off the boxes. So having that little break, where you're like, you know, I've been dreaming about this burger and fries from five guys. Have it, enjoy it, and then keep going. So

Brittany Gatewood  26:47

while we've been cutting right now, like since you know the last couple months, last three months, whatever we've done, like a weekly refeed because we're so far out or weekly free meal. Excuse me, sorry. So you know that free meal can range from a big ribeye and a big potato to burger and fries. We had pizza one night a couple of weeks ago, and we decided that we weren't going to do that because pizza just is so dense, right? Like our our array will be like, literally mine will be 10 to 15 beats higher like my resting heart rate just from having pizza. So it sticks. It sticks. A burger and fries though we might eat a burger or fries. And our body's like, Yeah, we love this. And then the next day we hit like a new low or something I know I hear Yeah. So it's cool to see how everybody's body responds to different things, too. Yeah. And

Philip Pape  27:37

so and that's funny because you mentioned skin weight fluctuation, which we talked about all the time as well. What do you track then? And not just like the typical things we would track for lifestyle climb. But what's supremely important for this kind of extreme leanness, and then maybe going along with that is there kind of a spectrum, depending on the individual where so for example, when I spoke to Eric helms last time, he he just became a pro right last year. And he, for the first time, stopped tracking his food. Now he said very clearly like he can only do that after years and years and years of tracking. And like knowing exactly what things look like and how much stuff weighs. And he still uses a food scale. So what do you generally advise people track? And then what does that spectrum look like?

Brittany Gatewood  28:18

So with food, they're weighing everything, they're tracking everything, especially like, our clients are doing macros. So we want them to have a little bit of flexibility in their food choices. I don't want to tell them, Okay, you're eating chicken, brown, Turkey and tilapia. Those are your three proteins, that's what you're eating, I want them to have the flexibility so that they can make choices. And then when we get like a couple of weeks out, we really clean it up and we simplify it and we will do like a meal plan. You know, based on the proteins that they prefer, they have to be lean, they can't be fatty proteins. We're talking white fish, shrimp, chicken breast, and maybe 97 or 99 lean ground turkey like if they are stomach tolerates it because it does make some people gassy.

Philip Pape  29:06

Dry. I know it's yes. Well, let me stop you there though the meal plan a couple of weeks out. So I'm assuming a client like this has some experience over kind of a typical client? Do they help construct that themselves? Or are you just like telling them? Is it based on what they've already been eating? Yeah. So

Brittany Gatewood  29:22

usually the client wants us to do they don't want to think at that point. You're so one thing about PrEP is like you get really drains your mental capacity, like you have a permanent brain fog until like six weeks after the show. So you know having like you telling the client, this is it. You got two weeks on this, like finish this strong. Peak week, you know is another ballgame. You start increasing carbs and filling the client back out so that they're not flat on stage. So it's really easy for them to be like, Okay, we've reached that endpoint. This is Showtime here and it's easier for them to flow guess on that for like two weeks versus the whole time.

30:03

Make sense. My name is Tony, I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Whitson weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that. And he's continuously learning. And that's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor, he's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches, he also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talked with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him, and they'll help you out.

Philip Pape  30:47

And so let's segue off of the brain fog comment, because now we want to talk about the symptoms you get when you get at that low level of body fat for women and men, because obviously different hormonal situation going on and different levels of fat you start with and so on. So, maybe Brittany start on the female side and talk about all the symptoms we get. And this is the cost of leanness.

Brittany Gatewood  31:08

All right. So obviously, hunger is going to be number one, even in a regular deficit, like when you're just trying to lose fat for life, hunger is a normal part, it's a side effect of fat loss, like that is your body trying to tell you we don't like this fetus, we have amenorrhea, which is the absence of your period, if you get amenorrhea that is a sign that your hormones are jacked up, also a sign your thyroid will probably not function as well, because you're not getting the energy that it needs to function. Well, immune system, you're getting sick a lot. If there's a sickness going around, you can pretty much count that you're gonna get it. Like you can almost bet on it, that you're gonna get it. bowel movements become less frequent, you know, you might get lucky to have one a day maybe if you're lucky. But you know, less food in less food out. Sleep gets impacted sex drive tanks, you might even like as a female have issues like down there like dryness, things like that extreme pain during intercourse because of that, like there are a lot of physical symptoms, you know, from the hormonal disruption is what it is. It's your hormones get jacked out from this extreme level of leanness and long term dieting. Yeah.

James Gatewood  32:32

And as like for the men, I mean, of course, all the hunger and your thyroid and all those things, your testosterone, if they're a natural athlete or natural competitor, your testosterone is going to be tanked. You're gonna know sex drive, you're gonna feel horrible energy level, your, your hunger hormones are going to be jacked up. So even when you come out of the show, you're gonna always feel hungry. And then there's no nothing telling you when you're full. So a common thing that and you know, this happened to a friend of mine, we did a show together and come out of the show. And in one week, he gained 40 pounds. He just blew up like a balloon, you know, and it's just because he was just uncontrollable eating on control eating. Of course, he was I hadn't had carbs in months, because they were like doing the extreme diet, get trying to get him ready. And his bike no longer knew what to do with all you know, was sugar and carbs like that. So he just just started like crazy and blew up like a balloon. I personally, after one of my shows, you know, every time I would eat carbs, like I would instantly want to fall asleep. I was having like some insulin issues. I mean, this was crazy. I mean, I could not eat and then get in my truck to drive. Because I was going to fall asleep. As I was driving like I went to, I got a little Is it 5% or a little bit lower around 5% body fat, which is very strange. My first show and my body was jacked up. It took me probably six months to feel better. Sleep apnea, sleep apnea. Snoring,

Brittany Gatewood  34:04

that is a huge side effect for men and bodybuilding. Let me tell you, yeah, which

James Gatewood  34:09

ended up causing problems in, you know, at home, because now she can't sleep. And I'm affecting her life, like it was. And then I couldn't, I didn't know I was doing it. People don't know when it's happening. It happens with some of my clients, and then we have to make adjustments, but your body goes through a lot when you go to get that lien.

Philip Pape  34:29

So given all that very, very long list of 60,000 Other questions, why do it? Why would you do this? And that's rhetorical, but like, How does someone answer that? Now they know and they're fully informed. Why would you do this? Because

Brittany Gatewood  34:45

you're doing something that most of the population can't do. Cool. It's good answer. Yeah. It's a huge accomplishment. It's proving to yourself that I can do hard things if you can push your body and push yourself and your mind because there's a lot of mental illness as well, to follow the plan and stick to your goal and accomplish that goal. Even if you don't win, you still got on stage and you're still doing something that 99% of the population can't do. It's just showing that you're capable of great things.

James Gatewood  35:16

And for me, like being on stage like I have, I don't care about being on stage, I don't have this like, look at me he kind of like I don't it's it has nothing to do with like the outcome in the in the stage was, it's all about the challenge for me. And when I first did, my first show was like, what in my entire life? Have I dedicated 100% of everything that I do into one thing for an extended period of time? Like, what is possible? What could I do it for like six months, everything I eat everything I drink, how I sleep, how I work out how I limit certain things. I didn't even watch TV for six months, my first show, like I cut out TV, like I was in the zone. And you come out the other side, and you're like, wow, I was able to do this. What else can I do in my life? Not just in fitness. But like, maybe in your career, you know, and just other avenues of your life. You come out the other side? Much stronger. Yeah.

Philip Pape  36:13

And somebody hearing that myself included? Here's all in there, like, yeah, like, I'll take all that. And of course, once you get in it, no, but I do like value based schools like that, right? Because then you can break them back down to these action based things that you're doing to get there. And so that leads me to next question, where should you be before you even consider this? Both? I guess mentally in lifestyle wise, right, like, what should you already have taken care of? And then you're ready. And also even leanness like, I can't imagine somebody who's you know, excessively overweight, would be like, wanna go from that to shredded in one phase is going to take multiple phases, and potentially years depending on where you're starting from. So what are your thoughts on that?

Brittany Gatewood  36:53

So I think that a person should have a solid foundation of lifting. Because prep is not the time to learn how to lift like you need to have a solid muscle base. You know, we talked about newbie gains and stuff and coaching and you should be out of that phase like you should be already have embraced that have a solid base of muscle, a lot of experience lifting, and a consistent routine in the gym. Because if you're going from nothing to now you're going to prep like that's a lot to handle. And you have to manage that new routine with your life as well. And if your life has any stresses, if you're struggling in your relationship or your marriage, don't prep because it's just going to make it worse and you might even end up single, because prep is a lot for a spouse or a partner that's not prepping and doesn't understand the process. Also, you know, finances we talked about that should be in a good place, your calories need to be in a very good place because you don't want to start prepping for something extreme and you're already in an extreme calorie deficit like you should actually be coming off of a maintenance or even a growth phase coming into prep. So yo yo dieting you know, I see a lot of women they want to compete just for the sake of it, but they have a terrible history with yo yo dieting. And you know I understand wanting to accomplish this goal for yourself, but it's probably not best long term for your mental health it's going to heighten a lot of issues that you may have with yourself body dysmorphia, even eating disorders, disordered eating habits, things like that it can like amplify that. So being in a good place all around not having any of those issues in my opinion is really important. You

James Gatewood  38:38

know, I think if somebody's looking to do this speaking with a coach that has the knowledge on this is going to be very helpful and give you some realistic expectations on maybe like how long they're going you're going to have to stick with this to achieve the look that you're going for. Also like she was saying you know you need some experience already lifting because majority of people overestimate how much muscle they have you know that they overestimate the muscle and underestimate their fat so I was guilty of this myself you know and I thought all I have to do is get my get about this way now shredded and I'll be ready on stage I will kill it. Well, it was about 30 more pounds I had to lose than what it initially thought in my head for me to get to that level. And for somebody that's a hard gainer that was very thin his whole life to get to those really low numbers. It was a mental battle and it still is I had to keep myself in check because intentionally getting thinner goes against what like I've been working so hard to do like I want to be you know I like I like feeling stronger. I like being bigger but this is doing the exact opposite it's making myself smaller so you don't call without your shirt on like that does but when you're you have your shirt on, people just like maybe don't even know you lift nice if you once you get that lift once you get that lane you know Like, there's just a cost of it,

Philip Pape  40:01

that's actually a really great point for all the especially for the male lifters listening because we talk about those two extremes. And, you know, you get made fun of for, like wanting to lose too much weight and you know, be skinny and be like, you know, people may say, Oh, I'm not gonna cut with you, I'm gonna be big and strong, you know, with my shirt off on half the traps and everything. And we have to recognize that because when we, when Brittany mentioned body dysmorphia, and eating disorders, and all that all of these things play into that if you're not in a mentally healthy state, and I know I used to be just like skinny fat, and I haven't been lifting that long, maybe three or four years. So I don't have much muscle. But I do know that trying to get to what you said a certain level of leanness puts me back into the scale weight, I was way back when before I started lifting as skinny fat and then I'm like you get insecurities about what that's going to do to you, you know, is are all my muscles going to waste away and things like that. So these are all really great points. And the mental sides got to be huge. And Brittany, like you said with these, if you haven't taken care of these other issues, take care of them. But you also mentioned having a coach. And of course, as coaches, we're always going to talk about how how helpful it is to have a coach and reach out for help. But it sounds like this is the kind of situation where it's almost a requirement. Like if you haven't been through it, you have to because it's so extreme and regimented. You know, it'd be like a football player not having a coach for the team, you know, just going out there, what do you do so, just want to mention that some folks, you know, ask for help and make sure you're in the right place before you do this. What else?

Brittany Gatewood  41:26

I think an important thing to add is also like we're talking about extreme leanness and competing and things like that, and understanding that there is a natural side, but there's also an enhanced side as well. And as an athlete, like if you're going to compete, you need to understand like, if you're competing, right, and you decide to stay a natural athlete, then you need to look for leagues that are a natural league to start off with because there are a lot of competitors using performance enhancing drugs. And you know, that will impact like their experience versus your experience to as a natural athlete.

Philip Pape  42:06

What's so like the WNBA F right and I don't know what OCB.

Brittany Gatewood  42:10

He is one that we like how our clients and iocb they do like a polygraph test, which I don't really understand the polygraph test because it's like a controversial thing. But if they win a pro card, they also get your analysis, right, if after they step off stage, like they don't get like there's somebody there to escort them to pee in a cup. Sure,

Philip Pape  42:33

that's an important distinction. Now, okay, so what about long term? First of all, are there any health risks of doing this? Because, you know, like we said, it's a challenge. It's an accomplishment. You know, in the short term, you've got all these scary symptoms. Are there any do we know of any long term risks to doing this? Or is this one of those situations where when you recover, you're probably okay. Usually,

Brittany Gatewood  42:54

when you recover, you're okay. Now that's going to be different from person to person. It doesn't just happen like that. bloodwork is an important part of prep. So that's something else that you need to understand you need to get your blood work done. So you know, what needs to improve. Personally, after my last show, my thyroid was jacked up, my cholesterol was jacked up, like coming out. So you know, you need to stay on top of bloodwork so that you know what changes you need to make. My blood work was messed up like cholesterol wise, because when I came out of the show, I just didn't do the best job reversing. So I went from one extreme to eating whatever I wanted. And that was the result of that the thyroid was an issue of extreme fatigue for you know, 46 weeks.

Philip Pape  43:43

Yeah, and we know that's the regulator of your metabolism. So it just compounds everything exactly. What about so getting blood work, getting your health monitored, really important? It sounds like having the before and after monitoring your biofeedback, maybe in real life, like tell us about a client you've helped do all this in like a healthy, I'll call it a healthy way, right? Like there's limits, obviously, because you're making all these sacrifices and trade off. But they achieved a lean physique. And then we also want to know what comes afterward, right? Because you're not walking around at this like extreme vascularity. Forever. Just tell us about maybe real life situation. Okay,

Brittany Gatewood  44:16

I'll talk about my client, Jessie. She's also like, she don't care if I say her name. She's also one of our assistant coaches. She was a client long before she became a coach with us. But after her first show, I knew that she needed to put on more muscle mass. She hadn't been lifting too long. So I knew she needed a really good building phase. She's a natural bikini athlete. She just needed more muscle mass. So we went into a building phase. Immediately after the show. Our stage weight was 119 and I think we got up to 140. In the post like the offseason, she put on some good muscle May when she competed last month she won first place in her Navas class out of five. And then in her open class, which is the one where she could go on to compete for her pro card, she came in second. And it was just some little things to tweak. Because of the work she did in the offseason, her prep this time went better, she was able to do less cardio, her calories were higher. So like the prep for that in the offseason helped her be a better athlete the second time around.

Philip Pape  45:24

And that's a great point of like, you're not necessarily looking to quote unquote, win right the first time out, you're trying to do your best and see how it comes out. And even that's a source of data, right source of information. Okay, now, what do we do next time. And just real quick, since we didn't really talk about it today, it's not really part of the cost of leanness. But what are some of the things that people have to do for the show itself. And I know this can be a whole episode, but like, one or two of the big things that people will also need to think about as maybe it's a cost or just a thing that you have to learn or know.

Brittany Gatewood  45:54

Okay, a cos, like in terms of the

Philip Pape  45:58

posing and the tanning the all that kind of stuff. Yeah, there you go.

Brittany Gatewood  46:01

For women the suit, okay, if you're gonna buy your suit, you can expect to spend on a quality suit anywhere from $600 over 1000 Easy, I have two suits, they both were around $800. So I mean, suits are expensive. The tan, as a woman, you know, hair and makeup, I'm not, I'm makeup challenge. So I can't do my own stage makeup, I always pay for it, my hair, I just wear straight. But tan is a big thing, like you have to get a tan, it's not an option, you have to have that tan. Guys,

James Gatewood  46:40

Oh, does don't have to wear so much. So you just have yellow trunks on, depending on which category you're competing in. But you know, you do have your tam big cost. So you need to consider is a hotel room, travel, hotel room and supplements. Because even if you live locally, right? To start preparing for the show to get your tan and things like that, like her makeup would start at like 3am. So like, of course we'd be in the hotels, you know, it just gives up goes and you know, has that taken care of because in our shows, they start early in the morning. And then you also have to go back later in the evening for the final. So having a place that where you can go lay down and relax until so the cost of the coach, the cost of supplements, the cost of food, all these things add up. I mean, it adds up very quickly. And to do so other than that, I mean, depending on what Federation you're you're in, you're gonna have to buy a card, like you're on the register. So for the NPC, I had to register with the NPC, and then at the show, how many classes do you want to do? It's $150 per class, or $50. So I did three of them. So those 450 plus another 100 Plus hotel plus travel and gas and food and it adds

Philip Pape  48:00

you got no I want people to know, you know, it's an investment. It's a

Brittany Gatewood  48:03

very expensive hobby for those who don't have intentions to like go pro, which it's not that easy to go pro and make money off of it. So it's a hobby until you get to that point, you know, for

Philip Pape  48:15

sure. Yeah. And honestly, this episode, we've kind of covered all the things that would hopefully scare someone away who really doesn't want or it's a filter for like, I'm willing to do it. Right. Yeah, that's, that's good. So I'm just going to send on this episode of the future. Say I want to compete. Alright, so I do like to ask this question of all guests before we wrap up. And that is what one question Did you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?

James Gatewood  48:39

Oh, gosh, I don't know.

Brittany Gatewood  48:42

You know, I have nothing. Last week, we talked about things that we had planned on talking about. Yeah,

Philip Pape  48:53

I think so. I think so I just like to give you the chance case, there's Yeah, it's like, oh, no, we got to cover this. No, it's all good. Let's, let's connect people with you. Because this has been a lot of fun. Talking about this. We've never really covered this topic in depth. So this is like the seminal episode about this with Brittany and James, where can listeners learn more about you and your work.

Brittany Gatewood  49:11

So you can learn more about us on our website, www dot transform with phoenix.com. You scroll on down to the bottom, you can get a free meal prep guide. It's a 23 page ebook that we created. It'll help you create awesome meal prep bowl combinations. So you don't just have to eat chicken, broccoli and rice. There are some macro cheat sheets in the back of it. So it's a good resource, and our podcasts macros mindset of muscles.

Philip Pape  49:36

Awesome. Yeah, I'm gonna include those in the show notes, absolutely transform with phoenix.com. Get your free meal prep guide, whether it's for your prep or just for everyday lifestyle, right and then check out the podcast. I think you're gonna love it and I'm gonna be on there as well. So you know, follow both catch the new episodes, and we'll see you guys on the other side. Thank you so much, Brittany and James for coming on the show. Thanks for having me