Spend 70% of Your Time Doing THIS for a Faster Physique Transformation (Rapid Prototyping) | Ep 192

What if you could get FASTER results with your physique development by spending most of your time on something very few people put much energy into?

What if spending less time goal-setting, researching, planning, and designing your training and nutrition routine could actually lead to BETTER results?

Are you a perfectionist getting stuck in analysis paralysis or stubbornly being "consistent" but with a plan that's not working?

Discover how focusing 70% of your time on THIS can lead to faster and more sustainable progress. We'll explain why traditional approaches often fall short and what to do instead, inspired by engineers who design complex systems.

And you can do it without feeling overwhelmed, ensuring you reach your goals with greater ease and sustainability.

Book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

Episode summary:

Are you tired of spending endless hours meticulously planning your fitness routine only to find yourself stuck in a cycle of ineffective workouts and stagnant progress? If so, it’s time to rethink your approach and embrace a revolutionary method known as rapid prototyping. In the latest episode of Wits and Weights, we dive deep into how adopting an experimental mindset can transform your fitness journey, yielding faster and more sustainable results.

Rapid prototyping is an engineering concept that emphasizes spending a significant portion of your time on testing and iteration rather than exhaustive planning. This approach is a game-changer for those who often find themselves in analysis paralysis, meticulously planning every detail of their diet and training, yet failing to achieve the desired results. By shifting the focus to continuous improvement and adaptation, you can craft a personalized, effective fitness plan without feeling overwhelmed.

One of the primary benefits of rapid prototyping in fitness is the ability to start with small, manageable steps. Rather than overwhelming yourself with a comprehensive plan, you can begin with basic actions and adjust based on immediate feedback. This involves collecting and analyzing data from each workout or dietary change, setting realistic expectations, and understanding your body’s biofeedback. By methodically tracking your progress and making timely adjustments, you can achieve your fitness goals more efficiently.

Traditional fitness planning methods, such as the waterfall approach, often fall short in dynamic systems like human health and fitness. The waterfall method involves extensive upfront planning followed by rigid execution, leaving little room for adjustments. In contrast, rapid prototyping embraces flexibility, allowing for continuous iteration based on real-world results. This adaptability is crucial in fitness, where individual responses to training and diet can vary significantly.

In engineering, rapid prototyping involves spending up to 70% of the process on testing and iteration. Similarly, in fitness, this means dedicating a significant portion of your time to experimenting with different workouts and dietary approaches. By doing so, you can quickly identify what works for your unique body and lifestyle, avoiding the frustration of sticking to ineffective plans.

To implement rapid prototyping in your fitness journey, start by understanding your current state and setting clear goals. Gather basic information about your weight, demographics, eating habits, schedule, and training history. With this initial data, create a simple, flexible plan that serves as your prototype. The key is to avoid overcomplicating things—focus on one or two actionable steps that you can start executing immediately.

Once you begin executing your plan, track your progress meticulously. This includes logging your workouts, dietary intake, and biofeedback such as sleep quality, energy levels, and recovery. Treat each piece of data as valuable information that can guide your next steps. If something isn’t working, adjust it quickly. This iterative process ensures that you’re constantly evolving your approach based on real-world results, rather than sticking to a static plan.

A crucial aspect of rapid prototyping is setting realistic expectations. Understand that progress may not be linear and that it’s normal to encounter setbacks. View these challenges as opportunities to learn and refine your approach. For instance, if you’re not hitting your protein targets or struggling with certain exercises, use this data to make informed adjustments. This mindset shift—from seeking perfection to embracing continuous improvement—can significantly enhance your fitness journey.

Consistency and accountability play a vital role in the success of rapid prototyping. Whether through a coach, a supportive community, or self-monitoring, ensure that you’re staying on track and making the necessary adjustments. Remember, the goal is not to find a perfect plan from the start but to continuously refine your approach based on real-world feedback.

Incorporating rapid prototyping into your fitness routine can also have a positive impact on your mental outlook. By focusing on the process rather than the outcome, you can reduce stress and enjoy the journey. Each adjustment becomes a step towards discovering what works best for you, fostering a growth-oriented mindset that can lead to long-term success.

The beauty of rapid prototyping is that it never really ends. As your body and circumstances change, your fitness plan should evolve accordingly. This dynamic approach ensures that you’re always optimizing your routine for the best possible results. Whether you’re dealing with age-related changes, lifestyle shifts, or new fitness goals, rapid prototyping allows you to adapt and thrive.

In conclusion, rapid prototyping offers a powerful, flexible approach to fitness that can help you achieve faster and more sustainable results. By dedicating a significant portion of your time to testing and iteration, you can avoid the pitfalls of analysis paralysis and rigid planning. Embrace the process of continuous improvement, track your progress meticulously, and make timely adjustments based on real-world data. With this mindset, you’ll not only reach your fitness goals more efficiently but also enjoy the journey of discovering what works best for your unique body and lifestyle.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 

00:00

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're probably doing more than you need to do to get the results that you want in many cases. It's surprising, I know, because in some cases maybe you're not training, maybe you're not getting enough steps, maybe you're not getting enough sleep, and we talk about those a lot. But today we're going to focus on where you might be out of balance you might be doing too much in some areas for the results that you're getting and a way that we can rebalance that using a powerful principle from engineering, so that you can know where you're overdoing it and where you might need to step it up a little bit. And we're going to deep dive into how you can apply that to your fitness journey to work smarter, more efficiently and break through any of the frustrations or plateaus you've been experiencing because you're not sure how to fit it all in. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're kicking off our new Wednesday episodes, where we apply principles from engineering to health and fitness, something that I don't think you're gonna find out there very often at all. We talk about evidence-based fitness and science quite a bit. We also talk about applying psychology to health and fitness, but there's not really anybody taking the principles from one of the most important fields on the planet engineering, which I have a very long, rigorous background in and applying that to fitness. And so you're going to get a new angle on Wednesdays going forward and there will only be three episodes a week now, three higher quality episodes that I'm spending more time making sure to get you what you want and need to really take your results to the next level, rather than just quickly pumping out a bunch of episodes and overwhelming you. And we're going to touch on that principle today of how less is more and how you can apply a principle to your overall fitness and nutrition strategy and make it a little bit more efficient and less time consuming. That's what we're going to talk about today, and it's a principle called the Pareto principle. It's the 80-20 principle, but you might've heard 80-20 used in different contexts like 80% whole foods. That's not what we're talking about. I'm going to explain in a little bit and, of course, before we dive in, as always, if you enjoy these concepts, if you enjoy the show if you want more content on building muscle, losing fat, improving your health and physique, especially from a different angle, right where we're more intelligent about it. We want to take advantage of the limited time that we have so that we can really enjoy life to the fullest. I want you to hit the follow button right now to help more people find the show, but also help you never miss another episode. So let's get into it.

02:49

Today. This, again, is going to be a little bit less scripted on Wednesdays. Our Monday episodes will be the more traditional deep dives. For example, next Monday's episode will be on my stair step fat loss approach, what it is, how it compares to the traditional approach and how you can apply it to potentially make a fat loss phase much easier. And then on Wednesdays, like today, today's, the very first one you are going to hear me take something from engineering and apply it to fitness and nutrition. And then Fridays are our guest episodes, and sometimes we'll mix it up a little bit, but that's the general idea.

03:25

So here's the common issue that I want to address today that we all experience. We always fall into the trap of thinking that more is better, right? More sets, more exercises, more supplements, even more protein, whatever it is that more, more, more. And at some point we hit diminishing returns with some of those things. Right, we only have so much time in the day, we only have so many resources, we only have so much money, we only have so much mental energy and there's only so much of that energy you can put into any one thing, and I'm guilty of this. But there are certain things I like more than others, so I will spend more time on them, even if it doesn't produce much for the effort. Right, and as an engineer by background, I see this as a classic case of inefficient resource allocation. Right, in engineering, we're always looking for ways to optimize systems to get the most output for the least input, and if you can apply that principle to your life, it's going to make things a whole lot less stressful and a lot easier. And I'm going to break it down and make it simple. Even though I'm talking about engineering, I am not expecting you to, you know, deal with jargon or lingo or any of that stuff, but I do like to take frameworks that have already been rigorously built and tested over decades in an industry where people have to design products that keep people safe, like airplanes and cars, for example, and they've figured out ways to optimize resources. And we could do that with our bodies. Our bodies are these beautiful machines that can be very efficient, and our time is very limited. So when we combine the two, we can get something very powerful.

05:08

Okay, this is where the Pareto principle or the 80-20 rule comes in handy. And the Pareto principle suggests that roughly 80% of the effect, the output, the result, comes from 20% of the causes or the effort, right? So in fitness terms, 80% of your results can come from 20% of your efforts. Now, this is just a rough guide, right? We don't have to actually be precise with the numbers, but the idea is this Think about this If you don't go to the gym at all, okay, what is your result?

05:45

Nothing, right, and sometimes worse than nothing. Like, you lose muscle mass and you get, you know, weaker with time. But if you went into the gym, even one day a week, you're going to move that needle up significantly from nothing to a meaningful something. Right Now, it may not be enough of a something to really push the growth like you want it, and that's where there's this threshold, where we say look, if you can get to the gym two days a week, you're probably going to start to grow your strength and muscle and be able to keep adding weight to the bar or reps every time you go to the gym. Right, and some people argue you could do it once a week if you train to the gym. Right, and some people argue you could do it once a week if you train super, super, super hard that one day. But there's some practical considerations here, like going one day a week. It's hard to be consistent. It may not be as enjoyable just doing it one day a week. How do you make it a routine, things like that? But besides that, I would say three days a week is where we see roughly 20% of your effort now is going to the gym and you're getting 80% of the results.

06:52

Right, and let's put that into hard, practical numbers. If you go to the gym three days a week and you do three or four exercises of, say, three sets, you're probably doing about 10 sets per muscle group per week, probably around seven to 10. And we've got to talk now about optimal versus good enough. When we talk about optimal in the industry, we talk about maximum output For you, the maximum output in terms of your muscle growth and your strength would be getting as much as 20 hard sets per muscle group per week. You'd have to be in the gym probably five or six days a week for 90 minutes. Do you want to do that? Can you do that? Does that make sense in your life? That's what I'm talking about. However, if you have as little as five hard sets a week and you go in three days for maybe 45 minutes, maybe not even that long, the research shows us that you can get significant hypertrophy, significant muscle growth doing that.

07:52

And so, when you think of the whole spectrum, when we think about resource allocation, if you're going to the gym five days a week and you're able to cut two of those days out and your results drop only by like 5%. You know they've gone from, say, 85 to 80%, but now you've saved two out of five days of your week. That's 40% of your week in the gym. Imagine now what you can do with that freed up time. You can get an extra hour, hours of sleep, right. You can get some other productivity, some things done for work. You can spend some time with your family. You could just relax right and recover, go for a walk, and the reason this is on my mind right now is the exact thing I told you about this podcast. We are switching from five episodes a week down to three, so very much like you can go from five days a week in the gym down to three days a week in the gym. My supposition, my assumption, my prediction, is that I'll be able to bring you more quality content in fewer days per week. You will be able to consume that content without feeling like you're falling behind or having to skip or delete episodes, and you will then get more out of it and your life will be changed for the better because of me going from five down to three.

09:06

I've had countless clients who were in a similar situation. They were doing too much, they loved to go to the gym and so they would work out almost every day. Maybe it was six days, maybe it was seven days. Now, it wasn't always strength training, sometimes it was a group class or a Peloton spinning, maybe they played tennis. And when we stepped it back and said, okay, let's first prioritize what's important and then identify the amount of effort you actually need to put in that minimum amount of effort to get all the results you really need and then save the rest for other stuff. So we're kind of applying two principles. Today we're applying the Pareto rule to 80, 20, where 20% of your effort gets 80% of the results. But we're also coupling that with the law of diminishing returns, like when you do more than that 20%, now you're only eking out a little bit more percentage. Right, they go hand in hand. So if you put in 25 or 30% of the effort now, you might get 90% of the results. Now you put in 40, 50, 60% of the effort, now you get 95%. And then you'd have to put in, you know, 100% of the effort to get the 100%. That's what we mean.

10:09

Same thing goes for cardio. We shouldn't be doing cardio to burn calories. We should be doing cardio for cardiovascular health, for our overall longevity, biomarkers, things like that. And for most people there's a certain minimum that's gonna get them a huge step change from not healthy at all, very sedentary, sitting around all day, high mortality rate, high disease rate, up to you're just fine. And that is not five hours a week of cardio, that might be an hour or two right Now. If you look at some of the recommendations, you might hear things like 120 or 150 minutes a week of cardio. That might be an hour or two right Now. If you look at some of the recommendations, you might hear things like 120 or 150 minutes a week, which again is only two, two and a half hours. And, frankly, if you're lifting heavy two or three days a week, there's a lot of that quote unquote cardio built into that. If you're walking a lot, you're also getting cardio.

10:56

So you see, where I'm going is we're trying to balance all these things or, more accurately, integrate them into your life, and you can't go all out on everything. You can go all out all out on perhaps one thing If you are super passionate about it, like we talked to Ben Lewis on the podcast and he gets in 60 miles of running a week, plus he lifts weights, but he is super passionate about endurance training and competition and he loves it, just like I'm super passionate about nutrition science. But I don't expect all of you listening to this podcast to just be spending hours and hours and hours learning about it. Hopefully you just have to listen to a few podcasts, including this one, and I'm hoping that it's number one on your Spotify playlist or that you gave it a five-star review on Apple, but either way, you might be just doing too much and need to scale it down. So, whether that's cardio or training or exercise variety or your meal planning strategy, are you overdoing it somewhere? And I'm going to tell you how to apply this principle to your life so that it's not just theory. All right, so how do we apply the 20% of your effort to get 80% of the result and not going past that and getting diminishing returns and just wasting time?

12:09

I suggest you make a list. Get out a piece of paper or do this in your, you know, like a Google doc or whatever. Make a list of the five things that are most important to you for your health and fitness. Really, the sky's the limit, but I'm going to give you some ideas, all right, that are probably going to be on the list Strength training, tracking your nutrition or your macros. Right, eating enough protein could be its own category. Eating enough fiber, getting enough steps you know enough walking in, getting enough sleep or high quality sleep, or both managing your stress you can definitely.

12:47

There may be other specific things on the list for you. For you, it might be emotional eating. Specifically, Write down five things that are the most important for you right now. And then I want you to, next to that, write down how much effort you're putting into it every week. Imagine that zero is zero and a hundred percent is. You're obsessed about it, you can't stop thinking about it, it's all you put, it's all you spend time on, right, most of you are not going to be at. You might be at zero, I don't know, but you're probably not going to be at a hundred percent. But you might be at, let's say, 50% or 75%. If, let's say, you strength train five days a week or you go to the gym six days a week, I would put that at like 75% effort right, it's most of the week. And then look at the one that has the highest number and circle it. That is the thing where you could potentially reduce the amount that you're doing down to the 20% mark, still get amazing results. And now you've freed up that resource, which is probably time for something else. So again, it's very simple.

13:53

Let's recap. Number one identify the areas that are important to you. Number two identify the area where you're doing too much. And then, number three reallocate the time and energy from that to another area. Right, the goal is not to do more of everything, it's to do the right amount of the things that matter most. And if you could rebalance your efforts, because we talk about balance, but balance doesn't mean doing everything all out in equal parts. It means integrating it into your life in a natural way that's enjoyable. They still get you the result. So if you can rebalance your effort, based on the 80-20 rule, the Pareto principle, you don't just change how you approach this, you're actually changing your mindset to allow yourself the freedom and the time to do other things and still get the result All right.

14:38

So I said it would be a little bit unscripted and it was. If you enjoyed the episode, let me know if you didn't or think I can improve Again. This is the first one. I'm going to continue improving on these. You know this is. This is step one. This is like when you go to the gym the very first time and you try a squat you've never done it before time. And you try a squat you've never done it before. You're clumsy, you're imbalanced all over the place. That's like this episode for me.

14:59

Granted, I have some other foundations, having done, you know, 300 episodes at this point, but I want these to be very helpful going forward If you want help engineering your strategy using this principle. I've got something new going on, so I used to do these 30 minute calls. I'm now doing something that's shorter and more fast paced and it's a 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment. It's not a sales call. I've said this before. I'm not going to sell you anything, trust me. I'm not going to mention my coaching at all.

15:27

What I like to do is meet people and help you identify where you might be overdoing it and how to rebalance your efforts. We're going to come away with the one thing that's really holding you back that you can change and a quick three-step action plan to get you results quickly. That's really all it is. So to book your free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment, click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click free call at the top. Actually, there's a link now at the top of the website, on the top right, a big button that says uh, rapid nutrition assessment. So again, click the link in the show notes or go to my website, witsandweightscom, click the big button at the top right and we'll have that discussion. We can say hello, we can meet and come up with that quick action plan for you. Until next time, keep using your wits, keep lifting those weights and remember, in fitness as in engineering, it's not about doing more, it's about doing right. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

My Stair-Step Fat Loss Process to Get Lean and Ripped | Ep 191

Are you tired of endless yo-yo dieting or struggling to get through a fat-loss phase? What if there was a smarter way to get lean that works with your body and not against it?

In today’s episode, Philip (@witsandweights) shares his personal stair-step fat loss process, designed to help you achieve your goals while dealing with life’s challenges, like recovering from an injury or sluggish metabolism. This approach not only supports better recovery and flexibility but also makes the fat loss journey more enjoyable. Philip breaks down the science and psychology behind it, explaining how it helps maintain metabolism and sustain long-term results without constant dieting struggles. He emphasizes that true transformation comes from thoughtful, well-engineered approaches that consider your body’s needs and limitations. By embracing this stair-step method, you can build lasting habits, improve your relationship with food, and achieve sustainable fat loss while living your life to the fullest.

Get ready to rethink your approach to fat loss and discover a sustainable path to your dream physique, one step at a time.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:28 Five-star reviews from listeners of the show
4:46 Personal story and surgery recovery
10:44 Detailed explanation of the stair-step method
16:26 Sustainability and flexibility of the method
19:22 Implementing the stair-step method
24:28 Benefits and psychological impact of maintenance phases
27:39 Building better habits for lasting transformation
29:20 Outro

Episode resources:

• Book your free call with Philip so he can create your personal fat loss roadmap

• Related episode: My 3 New Dieting Methods for Smarter, Easier Fat Loss | Ep 186

Episode summary:

Are you tired of battling stubborn pounds and the endless cycle of yo-yo dieting? Our latest podcast episode uncovers a smarter, more sustainable fat loss method that aligns with your body's natural rhythms. In this episode, we delve into the innovative stair-step fat loss process, which combines alternating fat loss and maintenance phases to ensure lasting results without sacrificing energy or enjoyment.

The episode kicks off with an introduction to the stair-step fat loss process, a method designed to work with your body instead of against it. Traditional fat loss approaches often lead to metabolic slowdown, energy depletion, and frustration. By contrast, the stair-step method allows for flexibility and better recovery, helping you achieve your fat loss goals while maintaining a high quality of life. The host shares his personal journey, including the challenges of recovering from shoulder surgery, and explains how this method can help you overcome similar obstacles.

One of the key topics discussed is the importance of incorporating maintenance phases into your diet plan. These phases allow your metabolism to fully recover, providing a refreshing reset before returning to dieting. This approach not only enhances metabolic health but also supports psychological well-being by accommodating social events, holidays, and busy periods without derailing progress. The flexibility of this method ensures that you can maintain lean mass while adapting to a leaner physique.

Patience and long-term planning are emphasized as crucial components of sustainable fat loss. Our culture of instant gratification often leads to quick-fix solutions that don't yield lasting results. The stair-step method promotes a balanced approach by alternating between fat loss and maintenance phases over an extended period, such as a year. This prevents metabolic slowdown and avoids the pitfalls of yo-yo dieting. By assessing your current situation, planning a reasonable rate of fat loss, and implementing high-protein diets, strength training, and flexible eating habits, you can achieve your goals in a healthy, sustainable way.

The podcast also provides a step-by-step guide to implementing the stair-step fat loss process. The host describes the problem with traditional fat loss approaches and outlines the benefits of the stair-step method. By taking long periods of maintenance with short periods of dieting, you can enjoy the best of both worlds: sustained fat loss and metabolic recovery. This approach is likened to climbing a staircase with landings, where each step represents progress along your fat loss journey.

During maintenance phases, you can focus on building habits, mindset, and lifestyle changes that support long-term success. Maintenance is not just a holding pattern; it's an opportunity to refine your approach, address any challenges, and prepare for the next fat loss phase. This cyclical process ensures that you remain mentally and physically fresh, ready to tackle each phase with renewed energy and determination.

Incorporating high-protein diets, strength training, and flexible eating habits are essential elements of this method. High-protein diets help maintain muscle mass, support recovery, and keep you full and satisfied. Strength training builds lean muscle, which boosts metabolism and enhances fat loss. Flexible eating habits allow you to enjoy a variety of foods while staying on track with your goals.

The episode also touches on the psychological benefits of the stair-step method. By avoiding the stress and rigidity of continuous dieting, you can enjoy a more relaxed and enjoyable fat loss journey. This approach helps you develop a healthier relationship with food and exercise, making it easier to stick with your plan in the long run.

In conclusion, the stair-step fat loss process offers a sustainable, flexible, and effective approach to achieving your fat loss goals. By incorporating maintenance phases, focusing on high-protein diets and strength training, and embracing patience and long-term planning, you can achieve lasting results without sacrificing your quality of life. Tune in to the episode for practical advice and actionable steps to transform your fat loss strategy and achieve your best body with flexibility and patience.

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👩‍💻 Book a FREE 15-Minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment

👥 Join our Facebook community for live Q&As & support

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:01

Are you tired of either not being able to get through an entire fat loss phase? Or even worse yo yo dieting back and forth with little to show for it. What if I told you there's a smarter way to get lean one that works with your body and not against it. Today I'm pulling back the curtain on my personal stair step fat loss process that I'm going through right now the exact method I'm using to lose fat and get lean, while continuing to deal with life, such as recovery from my shoulder surgery last year. And this approach might just make you rethink your approach to fat loss so that it can finally work for you. Whether you're dealing with an injury, a sluggish metabolism that doesn't want to respond, or you just want a more sustainable path to your dream physique. This episode is the kick in the pants you need to think and act differently. To shake things up. Get ready to climb your way to a leaner healthier you one step at a time.

Philip Pape  01:01

Welcome to wit's end weights, the podcast that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, Philip Pape. Picture this, you've been dieting hard for weeks. Sometimes you make progress. Sometimes things don't seem to budge the scale weight, the trendweight just plateaus, or your metabolism is dropping faster than you'd like. So the calories keep dropping to keep pace. Your energy's in the gutter. Your Workouts feel like a slog. Perhaps you're not always in the best mood. Maybe the cravings are kicking in the hungers ramping up. Sound familiar? Well, what if I told you there's a way to lose fat without feeling like you're constantly fighting an uphill battle, a method that allows for more flexibility, better recovery. And, dare I say it as always when it comes to fat loss, actual enjoyment and even personal growth during your fat loss journey. That's exactly what we're exploring in today's episode, my stair step fat loss process to get lean and ripped. Now before we dive in, if you're enjoying the show, if you want more content from deep inside my quirky brain on doing things a bit differently, to unlock smarter, more efficient fat loss and building muscle hit that follow button right now, that helps more people find the show. It helps with the almighty algorithm. But it also more importantly ensures that you never miss an episode. So please hit the Follow button. And I just wanted to share a couple of quick reviews we got recently from people that do the same thing who love to listen and follow the show, such as Camille in New Hampshire who wrote quote, Phillips podcast is full of solid practical advice for navigating fitness and nutrition. Yes, it's backed by science, but he doesn't drag us through the weeds. He provides just enough detail along with how to apply it to our real messy, busy lives. It also helps that he's very relatable and a nice guy. Thank you, Camille, that is what we're going for here. Or D h s b Yes, you 991 wrote, quote, Philip knows what he's talking about. And that's so refreshing in this industry. It's hard to get easy access to strong information, who I like that adjective strong about nutrition and health. But his podcast is super accessible and does the job. And I shared those two quotes just to highlight the fact that this really is about accessibility. It is backed by science. But we don't want we don't want to get so in the weeds that we kind of get lost, right. And that's what we're going for. And I want to thank you for those who submitted those and many other recent five star reviews that help others find the show. And if you're listening you already follow you want to take that next step and help us reach more listeners, please take five minutes and write a five star rating and review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. This helps us build trust and awareness in the show. And you're doing your part to help change even more lives. So I'm grateful if you've already done that. And if you haven't, go ahead and submit a five star review on Apple right now. I won't have my feelings hurt if you pause the show because after all, I've already recorded it. Okay, let's get into today's topic about my stairstep fat loss process. Now I want to build help you build some of our mental muscle today with this topic, right? And by mental muscle. I mean, let's continuously stretch the bounds of how we think about dieting, fat loss, nutrition, all of this not just what the evidence says. But our unique approach. So today we're covering three things. First, the problem with traditional fat loss approaches, and why I personally had to find a new way over the last year or so, really over the last six to nine months. Number two, the stair step method, what am I talking about and why does it work? And number three, a step by step guide dad joke guide to implement this process yourself. Alright, so let's kick things off with my background. My story, as some of you know, I had shoulder surgery about almost exactly 12 months ago as I recorded this episode. And I actually just recently had another MRI And we're gonna see what it shows. If it's clean, I just need to keep rehabbing. There's a retailer or something like that it could explain some of the challenges I've had lately, but we'll see. Now, if you've ever had surgery, major surgery, especially rotator cuff surgery, it's tough to recover. And my biggest advice always when having surgery is before you even have the surgery to get as strong as you can. Even if you have to work around some pain and injury, and not exacerbate whatever it is that leads to the surgery, being strong is going to make recovery easier. And it is really true. I've gone through now three surgeries, I had a back surgery, an appendectomy that was more of an emergency thing. And then this shoulder surgery. And when you're as passionate about training about fitness as I am, it can throw you for a loop, it can discourage you, right? My usual routines were just off the table, like I wanted to do a certain thing, but I couldn't. And that was just reality I had to accept. And my activity level over the last, you know, 12 months or so was lower than it had been in the past. For whatever reason, not whatever reason, it was a choice. But also because my training couldn't be as hard. So my overall calories burned, my expenditure wasn't as high as I had been in the past. And so my metabolism took a little vacation along the way, versus previous phases, previous building phases, cutting phases. And suddenly, my tried and true approach that I had done like six times like clockwork, was not as effective as it could have been. And if I were to rewind back, let me just set some context here. I had gone through a building phase for about nine months, up until early 2024. And then I decided to do an aggressive fat loss phase. And for me, aggressive is the full on 1% of my body weight a week, you know, I start from metabolism of around 3000 calories, so I'm able to die it on like 2200, or maybe 2000 calories, it gets some decent fat loss. But it wasn't quite working this time this this sustained, aggressive calorie deficit, my body wasn't having it because of the shoulder. And so my energy levels would tank, my ability to train effectively, especially when it involves pressing movements. benchpress overhead press, lateral raises, really anything involving the shoulder was just harder and harder, especially when I cut calories. Okay. And so caught between two goals here, one, treat my shoulder with the love that it needs to recover. And two, I wanted some fat loss because I kind of reached that peak of my bulk. And I wanted to go the other way. And I wanted to do it in time for summer. But that wasn't gonna happen. And that's the reality I had to accept. So I reassessed right, I said, Okay, what do I tell my clients here, usually, when I work with my clients, we personalize fat loss in a number of different ways. Sometimes we shift calories around, we do various nonlinear approaches, like I talked about on a recent episode, right? Sometimes we take diet breaks, we incorporate refeeds, we go into more or less aggressive rate, all that fun stuff. Whatever you do, whatever we end up doing, it's something that has to respect your body in your mind, current state, and work within your limitations and your recovery process. If that is part of the equation. This is why I always suggest if you're recovering from an injury or rewrite after surgery or something like that, do not die, it do not be in a deficit. Now in my case, I had recovered I had I had gone nine months post surgery, things were getting better, better, better. I had gained a bunch of weight on purpose to build muscle. And I wanted to cut, but it wasn't going to work for me because my shoulder didn't like the fact that I didn't have as many calories coming in. And my metabolism wasn't as high as it needed to be, which necessitated even lower calories to continue to rain a lot. So I'm like scratching my head thinking what do I do here? Do I take diet breaks? And then, you know, keep going aggressively and take diet breaks? Yes and no. Right? So instead what, what I did is I said what if I take long periods of maintenance was short periods of dieting and make the short periods of dieting, moderate, right. So it's kind of like the inverse of diet breaks. With diet breaks, we tend to diet for like two or three months maybe and then you maybe take, you know, a few weeks off for a month at most. And then you keep dieting This is usually for people who have a lot of weight to lose. Or sometimes on a shorter schedule, you'll go for weeks, and then you'll take one week, then four weeks one week. But let's imagine it's the other way around. Imagine you're climbing a staircase. And each step represents progress along your fat loss phase, okay? And instead of continuing to go up those stairs, which get harder and harder as you climb, and you're running out of breath, and every step is the same amount of progress, but it feels like harder and harder and more effort, right? We have a landing, right? Imagine going upstairs in an apartment building. You go up like half a floor, there's a landing, you turn around you go up the other half and now you're at the next floor. So imagine you have a staircase with landings, and the landings can be pretty long. All right. I don't know if this is a perfect analogy, but this is where I'm going with this, those are your maintenance phases, and they are diet breaks. But what we're talking about here is intentionally having a fat loss phase, I would rather be fairly aggressive. You do it less aggressively, and you punctuated with very long diet breaks. So let's break it down. Number one, you take a small step, right? This is your day to day deficit, maybe it's a half a percent of your body weight per week. And you plan that out for, let's say, six weeks, okay, I'm not going to calculate all the numbers, that doesn't really matter. The point is, it's moderate. It's not too aggressive, because again, you're dealing with something like, like I am, or your metabolisms kind of sluggish, or some other reason where you just can't go on super aggressive calories, okay. And you know, who you are out there. I have clients, I have people in physique University who, you know, coming in, they have a much lower metabolism, we want to get that up over time, we want to tune their metabolism, so to speak, but it's not there yet. So they can't just cut massively. So we set that up. And then we decide where our landings are, our landings are our maintenance phases, our diet breaks, right. But rather than one or two week long diet breaks, these can even be longer than the fat loss phases, right. So if you want to think of it as stairs, you can think of it as stairs with landings, you could also think of it as like, you know, each step, the horizontal part is your maintenance phase. And then the vertical part is when you go back to fat loss, whatever, I don't care, maybe this wasn't the best analogy to use. But I think you get what I mean. All right. So every time you get to maintenance, all you do is you stop dieting, give it at least four if not six weeks, every time and then rinse and repeat. That's really all you do. Right? And you're like, Well, that sounds great in theory, but why would you do it that way? Isn't it gonna take a long time? Why does it work, I'm gonna give you some reasons to consider as to why this specific approach might be best for you versus the linear approach. Okay, the first thing is always, always always, we talk about sustainability. Well, I've really enjoyed doing it this way. At first, I was frustrated because I thought, Oh, I'm not going to lose fat as quickly. But then I went into my app, I use macro factor, of course. And instead of setting a weight loss goal of, say, 20, or 30 pounds, I might set it for five or 10. And just a nice little chunk. That's my goal. And I don't know how long it's going to take me to get there, I'm going to set a reasonable rate of loss half a percent a week, let's say, maybe even gentler for you. Okay, and then I'm gonna go for about six to eight weeks, and then I'm going to stop for about six to eight weeks is really all I'm doing. And then I'm gonna go to six, eight weeks, and I'm gonna stop for six to eight weeks. So it's actually sustainable, because you want to find it have these very long stretches, where you're not worried about food, you're not obsessing over food, you're not dieting, you're fully recovered, you're sleeping nicely, you get all the energy in the gym, and you can really make a lot of progress. It's almost like mini building phases. And then mini mini cuts, but they're gentle cuts. Okay. So the sustainability aspect is really cool, because it's almost like living in a maintenance phase over a long term. And you just happen to also drop some fat along the way. It's kind of how it feels like, like, I'm never in a dieting phase for too long, or I start to get that tired of it. And when I'm ready to get back to it after my maintenance phase, I'm like, Okay, I'm ready to go, like I'm recovered and I'm mentally fresh. It's pretty cool. Actually. The second thing is it is going to be a little bit gentler on your metabolism in terms of you, obviously your metabolism is going to adapt when you go into a diet, it's going to start dropping. But because you're spending these long periods of maintenance, you should fully recover. And then when you get back to dieting, it's like it's like you've completely refreshed back to the beginning again. Again, you can never change metabolic adaptation. And the net result is the same when you add it all together cumulatively, but from a psychological perspective and living life and enjoying a higher metabolism. It's awesome.

Philip Pape  14:02

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle, lose fat and finally look like they lived. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wit's end weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community. You'll have access to everything you need to succeed if You're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique. Or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest, leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape  15:22

Third, it's as flexible as all get out, right. I mean, we talked about the nonlinear approach, in the last episode, how life happens. And you can adjust your days or your weeks around, you know, your holidays, and your travel and your social events, your weekends, going out all that. But what if you just have, you know, if you have six weeks of dieting, and then six weeks of maintenance, while you're doing the dieting, you can kind of occasionally have these social events, and it's no big deal, you know, it might slow you down a bit, but then you know, you're gonna have this long phase where you're not even dying in at all. So gives you huge stretches, that can kind of work with your busy periods at work, you know, the vacations, a period of recovery, like for me, those periods, those landings on the staircase, are where I would go all out on recovery, whatever that was, whether that's, you know, modifying my training, getting more sleep, just the fact that I'm eating more food, whatever, it's recovering, I really focus on that. And it's a lot harder to quote unquote, fall off the wagon, right or get off track when you have that kind of flexibility. And the last thing here, which we kind of touched on in different from different angles, but I'm gonna mention explicitly is better long term results, in terms of both, you're probably going to maintain your lean mass pretty easily, because I've had clients who go aggressively and maintain their lean mass, as long as they have the protein and the strength training, right. But because you're just dieting moderately, and then you're not dieting for like, 5050, it's gonna be I'm not gonna say impossible to lose lean mass, but you really shouldn't, if you're doing things even just reasonably correctly, okay, so gives you that tolerance as well. And then the cool thing is, as you're going along, you get to adapt to your slightly leaner version of yourself, each time you hit that landing, each time you get to maintenance, you're now learning to maintain it every time. And so by the time you get to the last one, it's like you've done this before, no big deal, like I know how to maintain my results, right. And the cool thing is, it lets you experiment with those maintenance phases along the way, what it's like to come out of a fat loss phase and in the maintenance, and not regaining all the weight. If anything, your pressure is toward the losing fat side. So even though you're at maintenance, you don't even have that much time to gain weight. Let's just put it that way. Unless you're massively over consuming, which is not what we're going to do. We're going to know what our expenditure is, right? We're going to know what our maintenance calories are. That's what we're going to eat. When we get back to maintenance. It's gonna be a bunch more carbs, which we all love. And then when we get back into fat loss, we'll know how to maintain our results by the time we're done. All right. And now I know what some of you are thinking, Philip, this sounds so slow, isn't going to take forever to see results. And I recently posted a funny video on Instagram, go check out go follow me on Instagram, if you don't already, because I'm gonna put more reels like this tongue in cheek sarcastic. And I said, like, here are my three favorite fat burning supplements. And one of those is patience, right? All three of them were not actual supplements. But one of them was patience. And I see this theme come up over and over and over again. We live in a world of instant gratification. And almost always when someone says I'm stuck, I'm having trouble. It's like, did you give the thing long enough? Not really, right? I'm impatient. I had a guy reach out to me, he wanted some help with his programming. And I said, Look, there's a million ways I can rewrite your program, I could give you a template like, it doesn't seem like the program is your issue. It's you're not sticking with the program for longer than like two weeks. All right. So of course, the programs are going to work because you're not actually running it. I mean, how many times have you lost weight quickly, only to gain it back? That is like the typical story here, right. And that's often a sign of, you know, a lack of patience, not just that it's many other things. It's the approach and everything else. So the stair step method might be exactly what you need to actually get results and have them stick, especially because I just mentioned, you're going to spend these nice long periods of maintenance. So I hope I was clear enough on describing how this works. I mean, it's very simple. But there are some critical reasons to think about implementing this for yourself. So if you want to do that, now I'm just going to share how to do that right. Step one is to assess your current situation and be brutally honest about where you're at right now. This is really about expectations about the realities of life, about how stressed you are with a family work and financial obligations, your current weight, your current body fat, you know, any factors that can affect you along the way your injuries, your recovery processes, all of So your starting point, and if any of the things I've said today resonate with you, it could be, hey, my metabolism is just not that high at the moment, I want to get it there. I do want to build muscle. But I'm in a period now where I need to get some fat loss for whatever reason that is for you. Okay, and I'm happy to have a chat with you, you know, you can book a free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment, and I will quickly help you figure out like, what is a realistic expectation? And maybe what direction should you be going. But let's say you said, Look, I want to lose fat, my metabolism is not that high, I can't go that deeply on the calories. And so when you tell me, you know, you need to cut for 12 or 16 weeks, and I'm doing it at a reasonable rate. And I'm really not going to lose that much. That sounds kind of discouraging, maybe I'd like the idea of thinking a little bit longer term for like a year. And having small, reasonable fat loss phases with these maintenance phases in between for a year. Knowing that that way, I'm not going to push my metabolism down even further, right, to a point where I feel like, I have to yo yo constantly out of it, that can be a perfect context where this would be appropriate. Alright, so that's number one, assess your situation, your context, number two, plan, the rate of loss, so that you can do that during the fat loss phases over a long period. So you're going to do, let's say, one year, and let's say do them in six week chunks, 52 weeks in a year. So what does that come out to? Oh, man, so, so bad at this, I'm good at math, but doing it on the fly, that's like eight cycles or whatever, that's like eight cycles for the year, meaning you would be in fat loss, maintenance, fat loss minutes, on off on off for, and I'm not saying that yo, yo, daddy, right? Sounds like it for eight cycles over an entire year. And you can line up the maintenance phases with the times of year when you think you're gonna eat more. But you know, you're dieting for a whole year, you're not bulking at all during that year, right. And again, this has to be appropriate for you. But at the end of the year, you're going to get the result. And you're going to have done it in a nice experimental sort of personal growth type of way, which is kind of interesting. And you can remember that you heard the idea here on Whitson weights, and you can tell your friends about it. All right. So that's it, you're gonna plan is the appropriate deficit, okay? To make it reasonable. So that might be a half a percent a week, it might be as low as, say, point 3% A week for you, it might be a little more aggressive. If your metabolism is isn't that low, it might be point seven, five, chances are, it's not going to be super aggressive, or else you would just go all out with like a normal fat loss phase. And then the next step, of course, is to implement it, and implementing fat loss as a whole separate podcast episode. And I promised I wouldn't be getting into the weeds of the how to, because I don't want this to be overwhelming. I've got other episodes that you can check in the back catalogue about how to do fat loss. One of them is classic, I think it's episode 40. Everything you need to know about fat loss. And I believe in that episode, I break down the phases and the various behaviors you want to put in place. Right? The big one of the big rocks, the big rocks is high protein strength training, and eating in a flexible way that keeps you full and satisfied. Like those are the big rocks, right? There's a lot of little rocks, getting enough sleep stress management, you know how you train all of that, that I'm not going to cover today. But you're going to implement it. And here's the thing, whatever you do during fat loss, you'll probably just continue doing that and maintenance. And that is another benefit of this approach. In that you're not thinking of fat loss as this totally separate thing, I want you to think of fat loss and maintenance is really the same thing, just with slightly different calories. That's it. And if you've never thought of it that way before, this could be the perfect way to give that a shot, right. And so you've got your fat loss phase setup, you're doing all those things. And then after about six weeks, you're like, Alright, I'm gonna crank that sucker back up to maintenance. And if you're using an app like macro factor, you can either have short weight loss cycles, and then when you hit the number, you go to maintenance, or you're gonna have the broader cycle, like a six month or 12 month, you know, I'm gonna lose 30 pounds or whatever. And then simply slow down the rate of loss when you get to maintenance to almost zero. And then really, just make sure you're fully eating at your maintenance and helping your metabolism recover. And enjoy it, like enjoy it. I'm in one of those maintenance phases. Right now. I've been here for maybe two weeks. And it only took like, four days for me to start getting super satisfied and not have any hunger because you know, I'm like, hum feeding back up. I'm feet. I'm not going to delete a sucker. I'm just going to throw those carbs up. I'm going to feed up I'm going to actually overshoot a slight bit because I know I'm not going to gain a whole bunch of weight. I also know the first week I'm gonna have a bump and stay away from water. That's all it is. Then it's gonna level out. All that happened as expected. And now I'm just kind of sitting pretty for a few weeks I can already feel how I'm really recovered, my weights are going up in the gym even faster. You know, it's like being in a bulk in relative terms to the fat loss phase, which is cool. And so in another, I don't know, three weeks, I don't want to rush it, I want to give patients to the maintenance phase, I want to really sit through it, right and do what I'm suggesting here. I'm going to be totally fresh recovered, ready to go mentally, physically, metabolically for the next fat loss phase, and then I know I'm gonna get through it, and it's gonna feel just fine. It's a pretty sweet place to be. And I've never done it before quite like this, which is why I wanted to make a whole episode about it. Alright. So yeah, I think you know, the other things we always talk about, like assessing, adjusting, you know, making sure you track your biofeedback and your, you know, you follow the calories to the metabolism, though, all those things are still apply the same thing. But the key difference here is these long, moderate fat loss phases punctuated by long maintenance phases, and all the unique benefits that come from it. Alright, here's something that might surprise you, as we close out this episode. Because if you haven't figured it out, the real magic of this method is not the fat loss phases. It is in those maintenance periods, right? Most people think of maintenance is just kind of a holding pattern, like treading water or just, you know, hoping to hold on to your results. But maintenance is the place where you can build the habit, you can build the mindset, you can build the lifestyle, that's the place where you've kind of take a break, you take the stressor off your body from the fat loss, and you just work on the skills. And you say, Foom, I just finished a fat loss phase and I learned something about myself, I learned that I get super hungry through PA or I learned that sleep is a little bit harder to come by or I learn whatever, you know that I respond to this much volume better than this much volume in my training. Well guess what? Now that you you're not in fat loss for a while, why don't you slowly do the one step at a time changes that resolve those issues and those roadblocks, where the friction is low. And then when you get to the next fat loss phase, guess what, now you've got another testbed, another experimental lab to try those things out in and get more feedback, it's pretty cool. It's actually a kind of a rapid personal growth experiment that you're gonna go through. The irony being that it takes longer to lose fat. But at the end of the day, the benefits far outweigh just the fact that you've pushed the scale that you're not just losing fat, you've actually becoming the kind of person who knows how to stay lean naturally. And that's why the stair step method is so powerful, I think it's not just about changing your body. It's about changing all the things that give you joy, changes your relationship with food, it changes your relationship with your body, it changes the whole concept of dieting. And this approach truly embodies that idea of working smarter, of working more efficiently of making steady progress and being sustainable living your life. Adapting to challenges, knowing that injury, busy schedule, whatever comes your way you can handle it, no problem with total clarity. That's what a habit is. Actually, that's what a strong solid habit is. It's something that you do even when the stressors are at their highest, you do it anyway. And my dear listener, that is actually the key right there to lasting transformation. So the next time you're tempted by the quick fix diet, or you're feeling discouraged by slow progress. Remember, this

Philip Pape  28:42

lasting change comes from thoughtful, well engineered approaches, it is always always about the long game, the long game is the fastest path to success, believe it or not, the long game is actually the fastest game. And you're using your wits as much as you thought I was gonna say your weights, but your muscles, which we use weights to get so tempting. And that's how we build better bodies, but also become more informed we become more capable. We find sustainable, enjoyable ways to reach our goals, maintain them for life, and hopefully inspire everyone around you to do the same or ask you Hey, what did you do to get to look like that? Awesome. So if today's episode resonated with you, and you are ready to take your fat loss journey to the next level, I want you to reach out, reach out and book a free 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment, something I just started doing. Again, I used to do these 30 Minute Calls. And now I have these very fast paced calls, where all we do is we talk about what's going on, what's the number one thing holding you back, I'm going to help you identify that. And I'm going to give you three actions that you can take right now to start getting results like simple actions you can take literally that week. And yeah, maybe we decide a stair step approach or something that could make sense for you. But there's obviously a lot of paths we could possibly take. That's what we mean by personalization so, to book your free rapid nutrition assessment, click the link in the show notes, or go to Whitson weights.com and click the giant button at the top. Again, go to Whitson weights.com. Click the button at the top of the rapid fitness, what is it called? Rapid nutrition assessment or click the link in the show notes. And we'll have a 15 minute chat. It is not a sales call whatsoever. It's me trying to meet and learn about as many people as I can and help you out on your fitness journey. Sometimes the difference between spinning your wheels and making progress is just having the right approach and having support and so I want to connect with you and make sure you are on the right path for you. Alright, until next time, keep using your wits. Keep lifting some weights and remember, in the stair step method every landing is a victory. I'll talk to you next time here on the wits end weights podcast.

Surprising Advice Women Over 50 NEED for Strength, Health, & Longevity with Pam Sherman | Ep 190

Are you a woman over 50 looking to hit your fitness goals, get strong, and have fun along the way? Have you ever wondered how you can integrate fitness into your busy life without feeling overwhelmed?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Pam Sherman, a fitness expert with 27 years of experience. Pam is passionate about women’s health and wellness, and today, she shares her insights on setting specific goals and the undeniable benefits of strength training. She also discusses practical strategies to fit fitness into a busy lifestyle for long-term success and the importance of building a supportive community. Plus, she shares an incredible story of how she recovered from a severe car accident and how it made her realize the importance of strength training.

Pam’s journey in the fitness world started with running with her dad and discovering the joy of movement. Her philosophy, “Your health is your greatest wealth,” has guided her mission to empower women to prioritize their well-being. Pam emphasizes that it’s never too late to start, and with the right mindset and approach, you can build a healthier, stronger you.

Join Philip and Pam as they explore how you can achieve your long-term fitness goals and feel confident in your body, regardless of age.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:01 Underrated advice for women over 50
3:56 Overcoming a serious car accident
8:17 Integrating fitness into a busy lifestyle and handling physical limitations
11:22 Why you should prioritize your health
15:25 Importance of having a specific goal
21:40 Benefits of strength training for longevity
25:21 Strategies for achieving fitness goals
28:44 Focusing on feelings vs. appearance
31:51 Overcoming obstacles to fitness
37:49 Role of community in fitness goals
40:09 Men coaching women, women coaching men
41:58 The question Pam wished Philip had asked
44:09 Where to find Pam
44:47 Outro

Episode resources:

• Pam's Instagram: pam_sherman1

• TikTok: @pam_sherman1 

• YouTube Channel: Pam Sherman

Episode summary:

Strength training is not just for the young or for those aiming to bulk up. It holds significant transformative power, especially for women over 50. Fitness expert Pam Sherman shares her invaluable insights on the myriad benefits of strength training for this demographic. With nearly three decades of experience, Pam delves into how women can transform their lives through fitness, building not only physical strength but also confidence and resilience.

Imagine a life where you feel empowered, strong, and confident, regardless of age. Strength training can provide these benefits and more. Pam Sherman emphasizes that getting stronger does not equate to getting bulky. In fact, it results in a tighter, more confident physique. The misconception that lifting weights leads to a bulky appearance is widespread, yet unfounded. Pam explains that building muscle is essential for overall health and longevity, particularly for women over 50. It's about setting specific fitness goals and integrating exercise into your daily routine.

One of the most compelling stories Pam shares is her personal experience of being struck by a car during a run. This harrowing event underscored the importance of physical strength in her recovery. Her commitment to strength training not only aided her recovery but prevented more severe injuries. This narrative serves as a powerful reminder of the broader implications of strength training in maintaining resilience and preventing frailty as women age. Basic movement patterns, such as practicing getting up from the ground, are essential skills that can dramatically impact overall health and resilience.

Daily movement and practical advice for maximizing health are also crucial points discussed in the podcast. Pam advocates for making small, manageable changes, like incorporating 10-minute workouts or exercise "appetizers" throughout the day. These small steps can significantly impact overall health. Overcoming physical limitations, such as bad knees or back pain, by finding alternative exercises that still challenge the muscles without causing harm, is essential. Regular exercise can alleviate anxiety and depression, playing a critical role in both long-term well-being and short-term mental health.

Pam also highlights the importance of setting fitness goals that go beyond the number on the scale. Shifting perspectives from weight-focused goals to strength and physical accomplishments can be incredibly empowering. Achieving milestones like doing a pull-up or a full-body push-up and celebrating these wins can enhance overall well-being and motivate continuous progress. The psychological benefits of focusing on wins, adopting an optimistic outlook, and setting short-term, measurable goals, like protein intake and hydration, are immense.

The importance of strength training for long-term health and longevity cannot be overstated. Starting with simple body weight exercises, such as pushups and squats, can progressively build strength and protect against age-related issues like bone fragility. Strength training improves body composition, increases confidence, and leads to a leaner and tighter physique. However, maintaining progress requires dietary discipline and consistency, especially as one ages.

Celebrating daily wins, tracking health progress, and reframing negative thoughts are essential strategies for long-term success. Practical journaling tips include tracking workouts, sleep, and meal reactions, starting and ending the day with gratitude. Breaking unhealthy habits, like sugar addiction, and adopting a proactive mindset are crucial. Self-discipline and planning are necessary to achieve personal well-being.

Community support and engagement in fitness can also enhance the journey. The loneliness of working out alone can be mitigated by participating in group classes or finding a workout buddy. However, it's important to ensure that group classes provide sufficient strength training. Mixing group classes with home strength training can be a balanced approach. Pam emphasizes that the best exercise is one you love, but it's essential to prioritize strength training for long-term health and vitality.

This episode is an inspiring and empowering conversation about fitness, food, and taking action. Pam and Philip discuss the importance of not just feeling motivated but also translating that motivation into tangible steps towards achieving goals. They cover a wide range of topics designed to empower women to take control of their health and wellness journeys. The dialogue is filled with practical advice and personal insights, aiming to encourage listeners to implement the discussed strategies into their daily lives. It's a fun and engaging discussion that emphasizes the significance of action in achieving lasting change.

Strength training offers transformative benefits for women over 50, impacting physical strength, confidence, and overall health. By setting specific fitness goals, integrating daily movement, and celebrating daily wins, women can embark on a journey towards a healthier, more vibrant life. Pam Sherman's insights serve as a powerful reminder that it's never too late to start prioritizing fitness and investing in one's long-term well-being.

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Transcript

Pam Sherman  00:00

for body composition ladies you do not get bigger you actually get tighter you get smaller which is counterintuitive to what every woman thinks. You look better in your clothes you look better in a bathing suit, you have body confidence, you feel competent, because you can pick up a 50 pound bag of kitty litter, I don't know whatever pick it up. You can go to Home Depot and pick up a big bag of mulch like enhances your everyday life in so many different ways.

Philip Pape  00:30

Which in which community Welcome to another episode of the woods and weights Podcast. Today I'm excited to welcome Pam Sherman, a fitness expert with 27 years of experience as a group, exercise instructor and personal trainer, a passionate advocate for women's health and wellness. And I invited Pam on the show to share her insights on hitting goals getting strong achieving longevity, all while making fitness fine. If you're a woman over 50, we're going to dive into the importance of having specific goals. The benefits of strength training, we cannot emphasize that enough and how women can integrate fitness into their busy lives. So this is practical use so you don't feel overwhelmed. We're also gonna explore things like the role of community and social connections and other aspects of achieving your long term fitness goals because this is a long term journey for life. Pam's journey in the fitness world began at a young age running with her dad and discovering the joy of movement, her philosophy that quote your health is your greatest wealth as guided her mission to empower women to prioritize their well being Pam's dedication to teaching women that it's not selfish to take care of themselves, has transformed many lives helping them achieve better health and confidence. Pam, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Pam Sherman  01:40

Thank you. I have been excited ever since you said yes, I like we can just talk I'm so excited.

Philip Pape  01:45

I'm so excited to because we are totally aligned here and the listener whether whether it's men or women, but women especially who are, you know, still have a lot of questions. And there's a lot of misconceptions in the industry about getting strong building muscle. Am I going to get bulky? Like, is this something I really need to do as I get old? I guess I'm going to ask you an interesting question related to all that. What is the most common but underrated or not talked enough about piece of advice that you find yourself giving women over 50 Today, that

Pam Sherman  02:13

getting strong now is going to affect you when you're 7080 and 90. And that myth Phillip about getting bulky. I've seen exactly zero women and 27 years get bulky from lifting, but that will not die. Because as a woman think I'm like put down the big weights up a heavier weight. But women do not think about when you're elderly and you fall and you break a bone. That's because your muscles are not protecting your bones and building strength. Now, it's going to affect you later on. And I don't know how people don't think like, I want to feel great when I'm 80 I always want to be you know, taking vacations and be viable. If you don't do that your life is gonna suck. So

Philip Pape  02:46

I wonder how how do we get people to live in the future like that? Because part of the challenge and I know that you know it is living in the moment and thinking that that's decades away, even when you are 60. It's still like, Well, 80 is still 20 years away. How do we deal with that?

Pam Sherman  02:58

Well, I have to think most of us have a retirement account for money. So exercise now is your retirement account for later on. It's not selfish. It's not anything bad for you. It's nothing but good. So it's putting dollars in your fitness piggy bank for later on your health piggy bank for later on. Building that now is huge, and it's never too late to start. I'm lucky I started when I was very young. But I had two big brothers. So we were always an active family. Lucky, lucky lucky. If you're lucky. I'm 57 you can still start at 5060 There's been studies that just came out, you can build muscle 90s, which is incredible.

Philip Pape  03:32

Yeah, no, it is incredible. And you mentioned, you mentioned story to me actually, before we started recording, actually, I would love you to share it because I've had a couple of surgeries over the past few years. And I realized that having strength train for the years leading up to it made recovery from surgery so much easier. And really when you fall or you get, you know, you get into an injury or accident. It just seems like you're hardier and more robust and that would have a lot of positive consequences down the road. Would you mind sharing your story? You told me about the car accident? Yes,

Pam Sherman  03:59

yes, I'd be happy to do so I've been a runner. I really do more strength training. Now. I have a little appetizer of running before now. But in the past I used to be a big runner. And it was I'm a morning exerciser. I'm high energy in the morning. That's me. But this was a day in December when my husband I went out to finish our Christmas shopping, went to the movies had lunch got home about three o'clock but I live in California. It's beautiful in December. And I remember going out for back at the time and easy seven mile run that would destroy me right now. But at the time it was easy. And I was two miles from home check my watch. I was a 15 pace feeling great. When all of a sudden a car looked left only and sped out of the parking lot and I couldn't stop I put my hand out and I screened when I screamed I face planted into the windshield. I left the tooth in the windshield which your brain goes night night. It's all good. And I woke up rolling on the road. And I first you know crawled back to safety but I was on the ambulance and I'm like rolling my wrist. I'm rolling my ankles and I'd like of course I had it I lost five eat that day, and had to get one more taken out. But I didn't break any bones. And later on after I got a I spent one night in the hospital. That's it. I thought women my whole life had been wanting to be skinny. I need to help them chase strong because my strong muscles I had been strength training for two and a half years, protected my body when I needed the most. And yes, there was certain amount of luck involved. My mouth took most of the trauma. But still, I was really thrown from the car into the second lane of traffic. My Garmin was smashed, so I imagine I would have broke my wrist. But my Garmin, you know, protected my wrist. But nonetheless, I only had mouth trauma, which is incredible.

Philip Pape  05:38

Yeah, so other than a couple little pieces of armor, the rest of your armor was your musculoskeletal system. Exactly.

Pam Sherman  05:44

And I went to my, I got discharged from the hospital the next day because I had a small brain bleed and healed up the next day. And I had stitches in my lip, which I said, okay, they gave me discharged, like, get your stitches taken out. And I'm like, That's it. I just ate a windshield. That's all you're just like, and I did have some CT scans every six months for copiers and make sure my brain was okay. And I went into my sports physio guy, and he worked on me every few weeks to make sure my spine was okay. But I feel great. And I know it's because my dedication to myself on my health that really made a huge difference when I really needed it the most.

Philip Pape  06:19

Yeah, and it makes a lot of sense when you hear stories of older women, I mean men and women, but women seem to be more prone to it because of the added muscle loss and the slightly less dense bone structure and Nn. Right, just, you know, biological disadvantage versus men just from a young age unless you do something about it. And we hear about frailty and falls and all that we focus so much on metabolic disease and like heart disease, but I know falling is one of the biggest if not the biggest risk factor after certain age. Isn't that true? It is. And it's funny

Pam Sherman  06:51

because I'm on tick tock, that's

Philip Pape  06:53

the only one I'm not. I'm on too many. So one of

Pam Sherman  06:57

my videos went like crazy, like 300,000, which was a lot for me, and it was me getting up off the ground. Okay, that's it, and showing various ways to do it. And the the amount of comments that people said, you know, I have a bad back, I have bad knees. I this like, my belly is in the way. I have a friend who's a firefighter, which I said in this video, he has 60% of his calls are for people that fall at home. Yeah, there you go. Oh, my gosh, I highly encourage people to practice getting up. In fact, I have an 85 year old client. Every time we're together, I haven't get down on his hands and knees and get up just with his bodyweight because it's that important. Yeah,

Philip Pape  07:30

I mean, that's we talked about movement patterns, squatting, pushing, pulling, picking up, that's the same, getting up off the ground is a great one, shift start just get ups if you want to do it loaded. But when these people commented on the tick tock video and are saying this stuff, were they using it as excuses, or were they kind of seeking help, like, Okay, well, I have a bad back. You know, what do I do? Excuses,

Pam Sherman  07:48

yeah, knee replacement. My neighbor has the replacement. She's 73 I'm gonna do one with her and post that on top of that, because it's just, I feel like our society is getting sicker and sicker and sicker. And they're not. They're using it as an excuse. The only thing as you know, we can control our whole life as our health. That's it.

Philip Pape  08:05

Yeah. If you just simply flip it around instead of being excused, it is the reason you should be doing the thing. That's It's the reason and then the next excuses like, well, I can't do this or that, well, there's a million ways to do to get healthier. Well, why don't you just address that real quickly when somebody is open to it? But has because you're a trainer, right? I'm sure you deal with the population a lot where they have pre existing conditions, mobility issues, you know, former surgeries, injuries, whatever. What's your approach there?

Pam Sherman  08:33

So when I first started teaching classes, it was a 1997. Everything was an hour. So I think many people in their head think that have to work out for an hour. So you absolutely don't. Let's start with 10 minutes. In fact, I have a 10 minute playlist on my YouTube channel just for that reason, because I've heard so many women over the years saying I don't have time, you have 10 minutes. I don't care how early go to work and get up 10 minutes earlier. How about taking I call it an exercise appetizer, every time you go into kitchen, if you're from home, bust out 10 to 15, kitchen counter push ups. Start there. Every time you have a break, go out for a five minute walk. I am a huge proponent of adding things to your day adding more protein, adding more vegetables, adding more walking, adding some push ups, push ups yet start in the kitchen. And guess what the chairs are perfect place to squat. You could ask 10 squats, they're starting small like that, taking baby steps, then you can progress but on an off time. Baloney. Yeah, we all make time for the things that we want to do. Yeah,

Philip Pape  09:24

that makes sense. So you brought it to time, which you know, is the one resource we can't add. And we just have to find time. But like you said, if you did an audit of just anybody listening, just do an audit of your week and come back and tell us that you don't have eight hours a week where you could literally go to the gym and not do something unproductive. And we're not even asking anywhere close to that right? We're asking for just 10 minutes a day. Well, what about just to re ask the previous question a different way What about you know, somebody who's willing to do the work, but they have limitations? You know, physical? Let's say they do have the bad knee or the bad back. I know what how I would approach it. But I'm curious how you would I have

Pam Sherman  10:01

a friend who's very tall and has bad knees and like you can do a wall squat. That's the safest squat free to do get those you know your body in a perfect chair position. Hold that you get to strengthen your muscles around your knees to protect your knees. Exactly. People, they'd say, I'm like, what really is your limitation? Guess what a wall squat hurts, your quads are shaky. That's okay. Muscular discomfort is okay to have,

Philip Pape  10:23

not to the point of pain, but to the point of where you're going to stimulate it to grow. Yeah. And that's a good way to put it. It's like, what is your limit before that pain threshold that you can apply? That still challenges the muscles that's going to strengthen it next time you come back, progressive overload gets you closer and closer to that position, I do tell the story about my own mom over the last year only. She had, you know, really painful knees and it was getting worse and worse, where she almost couldn't get off the couch. And we just started squatting. And like lo and behold, within days, the pain started to go down. So anybody listening, like just you got to do it, you got to try it out. Right? You got to try it out. You mentioned so we talked about health being for the long term, our greatest deposit into our, you know, life's bank account. What about in the short term? And where I'm going with that is? You know, I will often say that, like, I think physical health comes before everything else. It's like the oxygen mask on the plane. You know, you can talk about the importance of relationships, spirituality, like all the really deep, important purposeful things in our life. And yet it can't exist unless you exist. So in the short term, What's your philosophy for prioritizing things when it comes to health? You know, knowing that there's all these other things going on, you

Pam Sherman  11:31

have to prioritize your health number one, and I have said the oxygen mask many, many, many to women, especially because you're taking care of everybody else in your life. But you will do a better job if you take care of yourself first. And we'll go back to the time thing, it does not take three hours a day to take excellent care of yourself. But can we talk about the effects of physical exercise on your mental health? It is ginormous. Yes, anxiety, depression can be lifted, not lifted, but can be lessened with regular physical exercise, there is so many benefits to getting out getting a good sweat, lifting weights and whatever floats your boat and strength training, of course, and strength training, it's going to be so important for you for the rest of your life. I mean, when I was younger, I ran miles and miles and miles and miles and miles because I was in a very dysfunctional household. That was my saving grace, my brothers turned to alcohol, I turned it running. It saved my life. So exercise for me and for many of people I know has really been a game changer for who they are today. Yeah,

Philip Pape  12:26

that aligns with something we've talked about before on the show. I think Darlene Marshall first mentioned it from positive psychology called Upward spiraling where when you do start to do one thing it leads to another leads to another. And if mental health, we see a clear dichotomy with mental health, like generally poor mental health is associated with a much higher body weight and poor health condition, period. Like we definitely see that even though there are other variables for mental health. And of course, there's like, things like schizophrenia, whatever, we're not talking about disease like that, you know, very, very important thing there. So the tangent to this is women who feel guilty about taking the time for themselves. I know that's a theme that you'd like to hit on, even though they know it's important. But and then they say but you know, I've got these things for my kids. I've got to take care of this. I've got maybe to have a career, whatever. How do you address that? I

Pam Sherman  13:15

was just talking with a client who has food littles and they play soccer like so you walk during the warmup, right? And during halftime because you don't have to sit and talk to the mom, she's like, I've never thought about that. You can grab moments at all your kids sports events, when they're most of the parents are sitting you can be moving if it's by a playground. You can use the bench for push ups for squats, you are the freak but that's okay. Because you're making yourself feel better. You can look for pockets in your week to make movement happen. When you make an excuse, that's just gonna lead to a lot of other bad decisions when you know as well as I do when you make that one good decision. You're going to eat better that day. You're gonna drink more water, you might go out for an extra walk. One great decision in your health leads to the next and it doesn't have to be for a lot but when Mike I mean, my husband would divide and conquer if two kids playing soccer, there was always an hour warm up like I'm gonna walk. I can talk to the moms during the game. I don't need to sit for an hour before an hour till halftime and halftime. It's a lot of sitting let's move instead of sit.

Philip Pape  14:14

Yeah, no, I have experienced that too as a dad like with my girls just had their ballet recital last week and it was a lot of just being there sitting and I was with my wife so we were chatting and we're not walking around and that has its own value. And I work out so I'm not worried about myself too much. But let's come up with a hashtag grab moments because I love that you said that you can grab moments in your week hashtag rainbow I was gonna say about that. Oh, yeah, like it same thing with steps for example. Some people you know, they say I work from home. And I'll say Well Do you ever Are you ever on a zoom call on your phone or like you checking social just pace like that when you pace while you're doing that you're gonna rack up to three 4000 stuffs.

Pam Sherman  14:51

And if you have a phone call another zoom. You can be out walking. Yeah.

Philip Pape  14:54

And that to have your signal is good enough. Yes. Yeah, my

Pam Sherman  14:57

husband he said his team gets a little butthurt when They are on a team's call. He's like, but sometimes I want to walk, then they don't need to see me. They see me all the time. Yeah, as long as you're engaged. Yeah, as long as you're engaged, and luckily, we are in California, it's really hot now, but for the most part, you can get out on those calls and what pacing? I mean, yeah, you don't have to sit and plus your hips get tight, your back hurts, like your body wants to move and be upright, that's for sure. And

Philip Pape  15:19

it's all aligned with your health and your mental health and, and and everything your metabolic rate the list goes on. So what are the things you'd want to talk about to Pam was this idea of having a goal to work toward, and I know you're gonna give it a little bit more nuanced treatment, because we sometimes throw that out as lip service, like, we got to have a goal. And we set up micro goals, and we do tiny habits. But I want to hear where you're going with this in terms of helping us modify our behaviors, and focusing on what's really important, rather than kind of the short term things we chase that aren't as important.

Pam Sherman  15:47

Well, for my whole life, my whole career, women chase the number on the scale. And I want to tell them, like, can we set up like, can we have a protein goal? Can we have a water goal? Can we have a like an exercise goal, and I was told this about myself is an ICU, the video in 1991 to Terminator two came out, when Linda Hilton did a pull up. Women weren't strong back in those days, we did cardio, cardio, cardio, cardio, and I was watching me be like, Wait, we can do that. So for 20 years, I want to do a put on all the vision boards. I never worked on it. Until I put a pull up bar in my backyard. Why didn't I pay somebody to do it, and I am gonna do a pull up. I worked for six months to get to one. It felt amazing. So getting past the scale. What about doing a full body pushup, most women cannot do a full body pushup. But when you start on your knees, and you start working, and you keep working, you will get to a full body pushup. What about a 50 pound weighted squat? Like these things, there are so empowering when you work on physical goals. And plus a scale user just pisses people off? Can we not be pissed off? Can we be excited about what we're doing in the every day instead of being pissed. And for my clients, I'm like, You need to get at least 25 grams of protein, every time you eat in there, like what you're gonna stay full, you're going to be satisfied, you're actually looking for sugar afterwards, like, even those goals. When you meet them, you're like, I did a good job today, let's be proud of our work. Instead of like, that scale, like come on, you know, I want you to celebrate what you can do, instead of being the day being determined by what that number is on the scale.

Philip Pape  17:24

For sure. It's a huge one. And, you know, I was I was listening to another podcast where they talked about measuring body composition, and how one of the problems with the scale in our society is it's an easy number to get. And it also is a very, I don't wanna say accurate in the ways that people think it's accurate, but it's like, it's a real reflection of whatever your mass is that gravity is pulling you through the earth with, right like it's an it's a real number. It's not like a body fat number on a scale, which you can't believe because it's affected by all these other things. And so it's very, it's kind of like simple, easy, readily available. And I think there's an aspect to that psychologically, where we grasp onto it, in addition to all the female specific, you know, and societal and cultural things as well. And so what you're saying is, look, you can replace that with other easily measurable short term, process oriented goals, that daily, hourly, you can like win, win, win, win win, you know, having enough protein, having water, I do love the training and exercise stuff, like definitely a lot of women I've worked with the push up the pull up going for that and just trying to scale into it and getting that first full body. And for guy, it's like trying to do with one arm, which is really, really hard. And an X pound squat or whatever. It's really awesome. And, yeah, I love the passion, you have Pam, because we do need to get excited about it. And when we're when we see a number on the scale, go up a pound, and get discouraged. And that makes our whole day. That's a problem.

Pam Sherman  18:49

It is a problem. And you know, as well as I deal with that women especially are so hard on themselves. In fact, almost every client over the years, the first thing they want to tell me is what they hate, like Mina Mina are only talking about wins. You beat yourself up too much. Let's

Philip Pape  19:04

talk about the things you did great this week. And there's been times when I've gotten injured and out of shape. And all the things I still remember 2014 is to having to do push ups on my knees because I was out of shape. And my dad had decided all things. When I got to that first hole by one, that's great. And so I want to empower women to go like you can work towards something. And when you get there, it's going to feel amazing. And I want you to be so proud of your work. Yeah. 100% focusing on just the winds is right up my alley. Because I'm an Uber optimistic person. Yeah, you too, right. And while it may make some people like throw up in their mouth when you constantly talk about positivity to them, the evidence is pretty settled that having this optimism lens or optimism bias on the net on the whole is going to make your life just so much better. Because you're going to have bad things happen. Everybody's going to have bad things happen. And you're also going to be disappointed when you go for stretch goals and that's okay too. But if you're always looking ahead toward, you know, the hopefulness of it, and pursuing those wins, right in a positive way, you're gonna get way more of them than someone who's not that someone who's, who's the ER. And

Pam Sherman  20:11

when they say like, I can't, I'm like, what can you do? Let's think about all the things you can't do, let's list them off, because you can't that's very small part of your whole day, like, oh, when you put it that way, I am crazy optimistic for people. And I'm sure it does annoy some people. But that's just that's the way I am. And

Philip Pape  20:28

the at the end of the day, we say that I say that joke around it. And yet I know that if someone I know people like to be around that I see how supportive it is in a community setting where you do that as long as it's productive, right? Like, you're helping people reframe something not in a delusional way. But just saying, let's change the perspective or the angle we look at it from, because it's not going to help us to do otherwise. But it will help us if we have an action we can take going forward knowing that it can go in this positive direction.

20:56

Hi, my name is Lisa. And I'd like to give big shout out to my nutrition coach Phil update with his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity, I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that you need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is, and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide. And that really helped me so thank you. But let's

Philip Pape  21:39

let's talk specifically about strength training that because that kind of stands above most other pillars here. When we talk about longevity, and like you said not getting killed by a car, maybe surviving the car accident, you know, we can't always control what happens to us. But how does that contribute to the long term health and longevity? Specific? Like, can you convince me we have to be strength training? Like is that your position?

Pam Sherman  22:03

We have to be strength training? How many times are you in the grocery store where you see a person over like this person, a grocery cart, and you think if they fall, they're breaking a bone. And I think after I did that video, they went crazy on Tiktok, I looked it up and it said if you're over the age of 70, there's a like a 70% chance of dying within six months of a fall. And that's because they don't have any muscles or protect their bones. So we're talking about what we do now, for sure is affecting us later on. And again, Phillip, we're not talking about hours in the gym. But starting, if you are doing nothing now, starting with bodyweight exercises, great. Yes, you will progress eventually, because you need to add to the load eventually. But starting now is going to protect you later on. And I know, I have seen like my father in law died of obesity, my dad died of Alzheimer's, we're all going to die. But if we can be as strong as we can for as long as we can, that quality of those later years is really going to be high for me.

Philip Pape  23:00

I agree. So when you talk about these little snacks, what do you call them fitness? And I don't know what term you use. But I want to be clear to people, is it if somebody is completely sedentary? What's the route to go from there to resistance training? Because one of the messages I see in the listicles and I don't know if I already put out the short episode about this where I said don't move, like just move is not enough. It's like, oh, all you have to do is move and then you'll be healthy. And then end of article, you know, and I'm like, Ah, like, I don't think that's enough. It's fine. Yeah, it's a tiny step better than not moving. But it's far cry from where we need to be like What are your thoughts on that?

Pam Sherman  23:33

I think you need to start with every time you go in the kitchen, do 10 Push ups and 10 squats. There you go. Once that's easy, we'll get to 15 once that's 11 to 20 once you can get do that five times a day, it's time to join the gym.

Philip Pape  23:47

Cool progression and right off the bat you're loading yourself against gravity with something. I love that okay, what are some benefits of strength training that you've heard about or you're aware of that are maybe overlooked or not widely discussed? Because I know we could just list Okay, bone density and this and that. Like what do you think

Pam Sherman  24:05

body composition ladies you do not get bigger you actually get tighter you get smaller which is counterintuitive to what every woman thinks you look better in your clothes you look better in a bathing suit, you have body confidence you feel confident because you can pick up a 50 pound bag of kitty litter I don't know whatever you pick it up you can go to Home Depot and pick up a big bag of mulch like enhances your everyday life in so many different ways.

Philip Pape  24:29

I like to you get smaller because we do talk about skinniness and using a detrimental sort of way right like I just want to be skinny. Yeah and you're saying that you know obviously you're going to build strength and muscle and that's going to make you leaner tighter more toned, you know muscles denser than fat and therefore you're going to look smaller but in a healthy way.

Pam Sherman  24:50

In a healthier way. It's not It's funny my personal progression over the years I used to be have ginormous leg when I was big time runner, a mile legs are smaller, but they're more muscular now, because I do more strength training. My clothing size went out a couple sizes when I only strike train. My body weight isn't a whole lot different, but my body's tighter from strength training. And so for all the ones who think I'm gonna get big, bulky, I'm like, No, you're actually going to tighten up, you're going to get that toned look that the women are always looking for?

Philip Pape  25:21

For sure. For sure. Now Now what about the the overachievers out there. And my clients, you know who you are the overachievers who go through a successful period, let's say a year to have solid strength training, you know, they're feeding themselves, they're fueling themselves. And we should probably talk a little bit about the food side of it, too, because we're not always dieting, right. fueling yourself, they build some muscle, they lose some fat, but they're still not quite where they want to be. So like you said, they meet, they have some definition, maybe their upper body is a little more defined. Maybe they have bigger hips and thighs, like fat, you know, storage there, because that's how their body is shaped. And that's the last place to go. But everything else is now kind of trimmed down a bit. And now they still notice the thighs like, how do you approach that as a woman to another woman?

Pam Sherman  26:02

It's time to go into a diet phase. And, you know, how are you? How are your weekends. That's the big thing is, and I know for years I struggle with this is like, I hope I have a good weekend. You actually cannot eat like I know you don't say it's where we're like an idiot on the weekends and expect to continue to see gains on the scale or, you know, mostly on the scale. So you really do have to tighten up what you eat. And as you get older, it definitely is not as easy as when you're in your 30s or 40s. So you just gotta tighten things up.

Philip Pape  26:32

Yeah, no, no, no, tighten. Sometimes I say eat like a child. But yeah, same thing, right? Be like an angel. I know what you're gonna say. So okay, all right. Yeah, I know, we mainly wanted to talk about, like, having the goals and having that drive you but I think it is important. Some of the body image issues definitely come up with all of this. You want to say something?

Pam Sherman  26:52

No, it's just, in my experience, women lose it last where they want to lose it the most. Yes. So if they have hips, that's going to be the last to go if that's what they want to go use a start up here as your head and traveled down. So it is not a fair process. It's not an easy process. But it can happen. Definitely with dedication to your nutrition, like spot on most days of the week, like, six, six and a half days a week. Yeah,

Philip Pape  27:18

I'm challenging on this question only because some people find it easier than others let's men and women find you know, they some have a higher metabolic rate than others. Some have been building muscle longer than others. And some just store fat and in the worst places for them, right like this mentally, if somebody has been dieting, and they have lost some fat, and they've, you know, they lean out a bit, but they have more to go. How do they get driven from a goal perspective, or, you know, psychological perspective, to continue knowing that it could take another two or three years to get the physique they're going for? Time

Pam Sherman  27:51

is gonna pass anyway? Yeah. How do you want to feel in five years? That's it. Your health is a marathon, it's never 100 meter dash. And you have to have the long range vision of Well, first of all, you're talking about how to fill in your ad. But your goal sometimes it is like an inchworm to get to where you want to be. But it's gonna get to what are we in? It's gonna get to 2030 Anyway, do you want to feel amazing by then or 2027? Three years is not a long time and the whole scheme of your whole life, so it's okay for it to happen little by little. It's unfortunate in our society today, Instagram, Tik Tok, everything's fast. Your health is the only thing that will never get you fast results.

Philip Pape  28:31

Yeah, not to mention on social media, the results are completely skewed and what you actually see, so it's given us unrealistic expectations, even above and beyond that, time is gonna pass anyway. So that's a great point. Then you mentioned how you feel, why is it important now to focus on how you feel, because you mentioned some objective measures, like the protein and the steps and whatnot. Let's talk about how you feel, rather than just your physical appearance as another way to drive you day to day rather than thinking, you know, three or four years and being impatient about that. But can

Pam Sherman  29:04

we talk about when the last time you like had the flu or were injured and you just felt like absolute garbage? Every day that you wake up and you feel great, that's a win, that's something to celebrate, because I know we all know people that are very sick, or that past, who would give anything to be back here today, when you wake up and you have a good day and you feel great, no aches and pains, you get a great workout. That is a celebration that is a huge win and your journal, and everybody should be keeping a journal of their wins. Because we all have the things that we don't like in our heads when we ought to kick back to the curb and celebrate the good. You wake up, you feel great, good night's sleep, you're going to crush that workout isn't going to be a great day.

Philip Pape  29:38

So you mentioned looking back on something where you didn't feel great, and then kind of comparing how you feel during that scenario. Now after doing something, what should people maybe be tracking or journaling in the here and now if they're listening to this, they're like, Okay, how do I do that? What are three or four things maybe I should be really paying attention to and then what do I tie them to? To get that cause and effect of what I'm doing,

Pam Sherman  30:01

I think it would be great to journal your workouts and what weight you're using. So you know, oh, a month ago, I was doing 10 Less pounds on whatever that I'm doing. Now that's something to celebrate. It's good to journal your sleep. If you don't wear a tracker, I love my little Rank Tracker, because sleep, especially for women in the 50s is so so important. track how you feel after your meals, right? Something is gonna sit better with you than others. track how you feel like, actively think what am I thankful for today? Starting and ending the day with gratitude is so important. And a lot of times my clients, your clients, they focus on the negative, like my butt, my belly might whatever. What about what you did today? Did you do a push up? Oh my gosh, you do a squat. Be thankful for what you can do like you and I fill up like with a positive kick the negative to the curb? And let's celebrate what you can do. What coins? Are you putting that long term piggy bank? I want you to think about that?

Philip Pape  30:53

Yeah, gratitudes a good one. I know I've talked about this before that. Like, I'm not a huge journaler for whatever reason, I have my own methods of thinking about reflecting on things and documenting things. And there are different tools for different people, right. It's the principles that matter whether I'm rationalizing whether or not but you'll never win that battle with me. It's been long enough. And it is what it is okay. And that's cool. But oh man, where was I going with this? See, this is what happens. This is not folks, the lot of these interviews that you listened to now they're not really scripted, right? We want to have a conversation, I was going to ask something about, oh, my goodness, was that

Pam Sherman  31:32

you can use your voice memos to you don't actually have to write in a journal. That's true. Yeah. And I keep on my notes, I keep track of my workouts, so I can see what the weight I did last time. If I need to increase it, I'll put like, increase next time. Like it's good to track really everything about your health,

Philip Pape  31:46

for sure. And okay, I know what it was about the reframing side of things. Let's dig a little more practical. And then I'll just throw one at you like that I heard from one of my community members recently. And I addressed it, I addressed it with her in my way, but I'm curious how you would do it a statement like, I'm just addicted to sugar. Like, she knows all the thing she wants to address, you know, tracking, increasing the protein training. But there's always this like, but I'm addicted to sugar,

Pam Sherman  32:13

it's time to break up with a bad boyfriend. That's what I call sugar. Like, you want to go somewhere you have goals, you just you have to be an adult sometime and get out of your own way. Like, come on. Now. You can have it on special occasions. But really, with the all the information we know about sugar, about how it's bad for our brain, right? It's actually for women, the number one bad thing you do for your skin is eat sugar, and I got wrinkles. I'm 57 I don't want more wrinkles, but you have to adult up sometimes. And as a mindset, you are addicted, take two or three days off, take a week off and then see how you feel like it's okay. To get out of your own way. Be like okay, I'm addicted. But it's not serving me. So I'm gonna break up with my bad boyfriend for a week and see how I feel she might feel amazing. On it. What did you say? That's my I like kind of back to basics with that. Yeah, no, I

Philip Pape  33:01

there's so many ways and and you know, like, it's hard. I'm not trying to quiz you on the show, honestly, like, you never know what the individual you have to talk it through with them. I think for her it was more about let's reflect on is it really sugar that you're addicted to is a certain types of foods containing sugars and fats, and let's identify where that comes in. And maybe if we start adding in the things that you're missing that need to serve you, we're gonna push those out. And what you're talking about is controlling your environment and actually having a food plan that is also a really effective tool. Right? So for folks listening, like when you go to a restaurant saying that, I don't just drink a lot. Like I'm not just myself identity as I drink a lot, okay? Like you said, Let's what it was a term woman up or I don't know, dots off and say, Okay, I'm gonna limit myself to two drinks like, so I've always wrestled with the words restrictive, strict, and deprivation. And even I use the word restrictive, usually to mean deprivation, we do want to be have some strict mess about certain things. We don't have boundaries, right? It's kind of what you're getting at. It's like, you're not depriving yourself. You're just saying, Look, I'm an adult. And I have a plan and my body is important. And my longevity is important. So I'm going to make these decisions. Is that a fair assessment of it?

Pam Sherman  34:10

Yes. I just had a client who went out to dinner she had a drink or two, I can't remember an appetizer and then rice for their dinner like Okay, so next time pick one, have the glass of wine or the appetizer or the rice. That's a lot of extra and you have goals, which are like, Oh, I never thought about like that. Yeah. And I do have a client who does have a problem with sugar. And I just said, Hey, I double dog dare you to stop for a week. Yep. You know that once you stop and she's like, Oh, my gosh, thank you. I'm so glad you put that out there to me. Because she literally she has in her office, there's candy dishes, and then there's weekends and I'm like, give me a week and then tell me how you feel. And she just needed that little extra push like, okay, and she's like, thank you so much. I got this like, Yes, as a coach. I know I believe them but they have to hear that and go, Okay, I can do it. So

Philip Pape  34:58

true. So true. And sometimes you Need a little extrinsic motivation, or you need a reminder that there's a different choice you can make, because we get in a rut. And I can tell you until now that this triggered me to think about my sugar days, I used to love candy. And I used to eat a lot of it. At night in front of the TV, from our snack drawer, it was just there, right? That was kind of like an easy change that I was just not making. And I knew in the back of my head out of guilt, right? Every night I had it, it was like this guilt of I shouldn't do this. And at some point, who knows what it was probably my birthday around Halloween, I said, Okay, I'm just at the worst time of the year for having candy is the time I'm gonna go cold turkey. And for me, that was like the beginning of the end of like years and years of development from that point. So it can be very powerful. Pam, what you're saying is just making that choice. Even if it seems like you're cutting something or restricting you're not really doing that you're just making this pivot. You know,

Pam Sherman  35:52

did you have a sugar headache for a couple days?

Philip Pape  35:54

Ah, I probably had more it could have been is probably more of like a what you're missing? A headache. Right? Like, it could be anything that for your hunger headache from because you're expecting to have it at this time. I might have even substituted with something else like popcorn or something that was like, more voluminous, less calorie dense. And that's fine, too. Right? Like it shifts you away from the thing that you don't want.

Pam Sherman  36:15

And it was that in your working out days or prior to your working days. It

Philip Pape  36:19

was my working out improperly days. Your Crawford days. Yeah. CrossFit cardio. Not showing up consistently. Yep. But that was right. That was late. 2020? No. 2019 right. Before I really started to figure things out. Yeah. Is that crazy? Yeah, it

Pam Sherman  36:36

is. But I love hearing about your journey, because like so many people didn't see it. Like we've had it together our whole lives you've ever made mistakes? No,

Philip Pape  36:42

no, it's every day, there's probably something that I quote unquote, slip up or make a less than optimal choice. But like, on the whole, as we talk about, if you've got the pillars there, if you've got the foundation and the consistency and habits, you actually have the flexibility to constantly make mistakes. Like that's the way I like to put it is you have you've built in a buffer for yourself to be human. You know? Yeah,

Pam Sherman  37:03

I have a funny story. In the 80s. I was running marathons with my girlfriends because we ran cross country in high school. And then we went to the Ohio State University where none of us were good enough to run there. So we're in the Columbus marathon. But this was the 80s all ate terribly, because we were in college and I was running with a friend. I'm like, hang on for a second. And I pulled up my shirt and like, Is there something wrong with my back? Flip is my back fat juggling. All right. I mean, we've all had our struggles, like, every professional I know has gone through their struggles with their health and wellness. And I was like, what back? Because we didn't have mirrors in the dorm rooms. Yeah, I remember getting on my parents scale. 30 pounds more than I am now running marathons like you just, we all have our struggles.

Philip Pape  37:42

Yeah, it's what makes us human. I mean, if anything, trying to be perfect could be the thing holding you back. Right. So when it comes to what you alluded to then being a coach and helping people, when we think of relatedness community, not doing it alone, asking for help, I think those are all very powerful. They're important themes. What role do they play? In all of this? Like, any extreme? Could someone just say, I'm going to do this all by myself, go alone and be successful? And even if they could win, they be more successful with with help, like, what are your thoughts on that? 100%

Pam Sherman  38:15

I just had a client today say, I thought I could do it by myself and I didn't do anything. Community is so important. I need to be around other women who are on the same journey. It doesn't matter the body size, but on the same journey, that so many people and I'll say women think I can do it. But there's nobody to fall back on. There's nobody to ask questions to there's nobody say I'm having a bad day or I, you know, I messed up or look at, you know, look at the wind that I had, because I always asked Mike, let's share winds going alone. It's and it's lonely. It's so much more fun to do in a community. Yeah,

Philip Pape  38:49

that's a good way to put it. It's lonely. Yeah, for sure. And there's some things like people who have a home gym, right? They have that concern, especially met women who are doing the group classes, right. And but it's not quite cutting it from a strength training perspective. And, actually, I'm curious your thoughts on that, because you want them to lift weights, let's say they don't even have access to that kind of gym in the region that they live in. They have the option of doing a home gym, right? And there's still these group classes there, but they're not really focused on strength training, what are your thoughts on an approach for that person?

Pam Sherman  39:22

Now? I mean, you have to do have progressive overload. And I have taken classes recently, my sister in law when I visit her and buffalo strike classes too fast, you can't get proper load. You can't think about your form. So I would say in that situation, getting a home gym is going to be your best bet. Go to take root classes for yoga, you know, for a core workout, but for strength. You cannot get enough weight. Yes, it's fine. Maybe go to one a week for fun, but to see the results that you want, you need to have more than a group class.

Philip Pape  39:56

There you go. No, I love that kind of mixing it up. And if you need a group class for some of the other things just don't make it the priority associated with the training, do the training at home and find your community elsewhere. You know, to satisfy that it. And then this came to mind to what are your thoughts on women, coaching men, men coaching women? You know, do you have any feelings on that?

Pam Sherman  40:14

I've coached a few men in my day. And I've been very successful with two. And one of them started out successful and then didn't want like I was trying to be a hard trainer. And he didn't listen to me. And we had to break up because he wasn't taking my advice. But the other two were like, you obviously what we're doing, and I coach them with food only not for workouts, and it was great. So it's you just have to find the person that you connect with. Right, you have to have be relatable. And that's all.

Philip Pape  40:41

You know, I'm always curious about that. And I thought of it recently because well, first of all, I'm always talking to women on the show now and I coach women and I'm talking menopause more and more. And it's like, a year or two ago, and I thought, that's crazy. There's no way I'm going to do that. Or people are even going to trust me. But like you said, you just have to empathize. And no one person has every experience of the people you're coaching, right? So whether it's men or women, and you know, Ally, Gilbert, she's kind of pretty big following she calls it the queen of men's health. Her demographic is men like increasing their testosterone, making them show up in the bedroom, that kind of like messaging, which is really cool. So I think it's depending on like you said, You've got to connect with the person, be authentic, and just be open to helping them however you can. And listening to them. Yeah, you do

Pam Sherman  41:26

your homework, you have these women on your so you have Karen on your show, right? Carrie Martell, you have all this great information. So it's not like you're helping women without any idea what you're talking about. You're learning and probably from all your guests. That's

Philip Pape  41:37

exactly it, you hit it on the head, you see, the listener knows I this is like my master class and my coaching, improvement by listening and talking to all of you. But also I only bring on the best of the best pound. Because I want you to you know, share your story with the world. And you've got great advice from a different perspective, usually. And so this has been an awesome conversation. I'd love to ask this question of all guests, you know, what's coming? Is there a question? Or what question do you wish I had asked? And what is your answer? Well,

Pam Sherman  42:05

I do want to go back to the group classes because I actually teach two step classes a week. And so many women have fun in group exercise, I want to say my second answer was what is the best exercise? Okay, the best exercise is the one you love to do. And when women say I don't like to work out, like what did you like to do as a kid, jump rope, might need to wear a pad but jump rope right now. It's still fun. And strength train two to three times a week, but do what you love. So if you love Pilates, oh my gosh, go to Pilates. But that is not your strength training. It drives me absolutely crazy. Phillip, when people say women say I do Pilates that strength. I'm like, It's not strength. So do what you love, go to group, get your group experience, have an amazing time. But find that way to get that strengthened two to three times a week because that is what's gonna get you to 80 and failing Great. Yeah,

Philip Pape  42:51

I think it's good to bucket like you said, put these into buckets and put that priority of training at the top and then find the weight. Like, there's no excuse, you've got to get that done. So get it done. It's kind of like you have to have food to live and you have to kind of have a house or place to live. And you have to have a little bit of money to be able to survive. But you have to have these things are non negotiables. How you do it is very flexible. But then like you said, there's this other bucket of movement, fun hobbies, community, whatever you want to fit it in where these other activities can go. And even if they let's say take a tiny bit away from your training and recovery, it could be worth it. Right? The trade off could be worth it for you if the alternative is you're not doing any of that stuff.

Pam Sherman  43:30

Yeah, I know like bar is so popular. I took a bar class,

Philip Pape  43:35

and I just need to face for those of you listen to the audio she just made kind of like

Pam Sherman  43:40

if I offended anyone that takes bar that is not strength training. Yeah, that is 150 reps of a squat. That's not strength training. Yeah, so don't market it as such. Yeah, yeah. And it's not full range of motion. They're like half squats. So if you love it, oh my gosh, do it. But then go to the gym and lift heavy weights, because that's what's gonna get you to your long term health investment, your retirement fund, that's really what's gonna get you the most bang for your buck,

Philip Pape  44:03

lift weights, that is your retirement fund for life. Find a fun way to do it and listen to what Pam saying, Look her up and I want to provide the listener a way to do that. So where can listeners learn more about you and your work on

Pam Sherman  44:16

Instagram and Tiktok. I am lowercase Pam underscore Sherman one, my website is going to change but for right now it's the perfect balance dot guru. I have a YouTube channel, Pam Sherman where I have a 10 minute playlist for those of you that want to start working out I don't know where I've got plenty of Bodyweight Workouts. If you need a stretch and nobody stretches enough. I have a whole stretching playlist. I have a bunch of workouts there. So if you want to work out from home, I would love it if you give it a try and then leave a comment so I know that you did it. Alright,

Philip Pape  44:42

cool. I'm gonna throw those in there. Let's say the top three would be IG tick tock and YouTube. Maybe, folks so yes, so we'll throw those in the show notes as always, and Pam, this was fun. I mean, the time flew by we covered covered a lot of really inspiring motivating things, but we don't just want to motivate women, right? We want them to take the action. So I And I know that's what you're all about. So thank you so much for coming on.

Pam Sherman  45:02

It was amazing. And we talked for a long time. I wish I could keep talking and I gotta go but thank you. Thank you for having me on. It's such a pleasure to talk fitness and food and all the things with you agree

Philip Pape  45:11

so much fun. Thanks for coming on.

How to Get More Fitness Results for Less Effort (The Pareto Rule) | Ep 189

What if doing LESS is the answer to more results overall...your fitness, training, nutrition, and anything else going on in your life?

Imagine achieving 80% of your fitness goals with just 20% of your efforts. Today is the first Wednesday episode where we apply engineering frameworks to evidence-based fitness. After all, engineers have made it their craft to optimize results with as few resources as possible through simple, elegant, and effective solutions.

One such framework is the Pareto principle, also known as the 80-20 rule (not to be confused with the 80% whole foods "rule" for nutrition). This rule is a way to rebalance all the important but time-consuming things in your life so you can free up time, reduce stress, and STILL get the results you want.

This episode will guide you through identifying the most impactful actions you can take in areas like strength training, nutrition, sleep, and stress management, so you can break through plateaus and optimize your time effectively.

Join us as we kick off a new series that merges engineering principles with fitness strategies. We'll dissect how to evaluate your current efforts across various health areas, revealing where you might be overcommitted and how to reallocate those efforts for maximum results.

You can now book a FREE 15-minute Rapid Nutrition Assessment, designed to fine-tune your strategy, identify your #1 roadblock, and give you a personalized 3-step action plan in a fast-paced 15 minutes.

Click to book a Rapid Nutrition Assessment while there are slots open this week.

Episode summary:

This episode delves into the fascinating world of fitness optimization through the lens of the Pareto principle, commonly known as the 80-20 rule, which promises to revolutionize your approach to health and fitness by showing you how to achieve 80% of your fitness goals with just 20% of your efforts. The key is to work smarter, not more, and this episode offers a treasure trove of insights on how to do just that.

The episode kicks off with an exploration of resource allocation in fitness training. Pape introduces the concept of the Pareto principle, explaining how it can be applied to various aspects of health and fitness. The common misconception that more effort always yields better results is debunked, and listeners are encouraged to focus on the most impactful 20% of their efforts to achieve 80% of their desired results. This efficient approach, rooted in engineering principles, is the foundation of the episode's message.

One of the most intriguing aspects of this episode is the merging of engineering concepts with fitness strategies. Pape, with his extensive background in engineering, brings a unique perspective to the table. He discusses how to evaluate your current efforts across different health areas, such as strength training, nutrition, sleep, and stress management. By identifying where you might be overcommitted, you can reallocate those efforts for maximum results. This approach not only helps you break through plateaus but also optimizes your time and resources effectively.

The episode continues with a focus on prioritizing health and fitness efforts. Pape guides listeners through a strategic approach to leveraging the 80-20 rule. He emphasizes the importance of identifying the top five areas that are most crucial for your health, such as strength training, nutrition tracking, protein and fiber intake, steps, sleep, and stress management. By evaluating how much effort you are putting into each area on a scale from 0 to 100 percent, you can pinpoint where you are overcommitted. The goal is to reduce that effort to 20 percent while still achieving great results, thereby freeing up time for other priorities.

To further fine-tune your strategy, Pape introduces a free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment. This assessment is designed to help you pinpoint what's holding you back and create a quick three-step action plan for immediate results. By visiting witsandweights.com, you can book your session and start your journey towards a more balanced and efficient fitness regimen. This practical tool is a game-changer for those looking to optimize their health and fitness efforts without overwhelming themselves.

The episode also touches on the concept of doing less to achieve more. Pape explains how applying the Pareto principle can lead to significant improvements in your fitness journey. For instance, he highlights how going to the gym just three days a week can yield substantial results compared to five or six days. By focusing on quality over quantity, you can save time and still make significant progress. This approach is particularly beneficial for those with busy schedules or those who feel overwhelmed by their current fitness routines.

Pape's discussion extends to various aspects of fitness, including strength training, cardio, and nutrition. He emphasizes the importance of integrating these elements into your life in a balanced way. For example, he discusses how strength training can be optimized by focusing on key exercises and reducing the number of sets and repetitions. Similarly, he highlights how cardio should be done for cardiovascular health rather than calorie burning, suggesting that even a small amount of cardio can have significant health benefits.

Nutrition is another critical area where the 80-20 rule can be applied. Pape advises listeners to focus on the most impactful aspects of their diet, such as protein and fiber intake, rather than obsessing over every detail. By doing so, you can achieve better results without feeling overwhelmed. This approach is not only more sustainable but also more enjoyable, as it allows you to integrate healthy habits into your life naturally.

The episode concludes with practical steps to apply the Pareto principle to your fitness journey. Pape encourages listeners to identify the areas that are most important to them and evaluate their current efforts. By reallocating time and energy from overcommitted areas to those that need more attention, you can achieve a more balanced and effective fitness regimen. This approach not only improves your physical health but also enhances your overall well-being by reducing stress and increasing enjoyment.

In summary, this episode of Wits and Weights offers a wealth of insights on how to optimize your fitness journey using the Pareto principle. By focusing on the most impactful 20% of your efforts, you can achieve 80% of your desired results, saving time and resources in the process. Whether you're a fitness enthusiast or just starting your health journey, this episode provides valuable strategies to help you work smarter and more efficiently.

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Transcript

Philip Pape: 0:00

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're probably doing more than you need to do to get the results that you want in many cases. It's surprising, I know, because in some cases maybe you're not training, maybe you're not getting enough steps, maybe you're not getting enough sleep, and we talk about those a lot. But today we're going to focus on where you might be out of balance you might be doing too much in some areas for the results that you're getting and a way that we can rebalance that using a powerful principle from engineering, so that you can know where you're overdoing it and where you might need to step it up a little bit. And we're going to deep dive into how you can apply that to your fitness journey to work smarter, more efficiently and break through any of the frustrations or plateaus you've been experiencing because you're not sure how to fit it all in. Welcome to Wits and Weights, the show that blends evidence and engineering to help you build smart, efficient systems to achieve your dream physique. I'm your host, philip Pape, and today we're kicking off our new Wednesday episodes, where we apply principles from engineering to health and fitness, something that I don't think you're gonna find out there very often at all. We talk about evidence-based fitness and science quite a bit. We also talk about applying psychology to health and fitness, but there's not really anybody taking the principles from one of the most important fields on the planet engineering, which I have a very long, rigorous background in and applying that to fitness. And so you're going to get a new angle on Wednesdays going forward and there will only be three episodes a week now, three higher quality episodes that I'm spending more time making sure to get you what you want and need to really take your results to the next level, rather than just quickly pumping out a bunch of episodes and overwhelming you. And we're going to touch on that principle today of how less is more and how you can apply a principle to your overall fitness and nutrition strategy and make it a little bit more efficient and less time consuming. That's what we're going to talk about today, and it's a principle called the Pareto principle. It's the 80-20 principle, but you might've heard 80-20 used in different contexts like 80% whole foods. That's not what we're talking about. I'm going to explain in a little bit and, of course, before we dive in, as always, if you enjoy these concepts, if you enjoy the show if you want more content on building muscle, losing fat, improving your health and physique, especially from a different angle, right where we're more intelligent about it. We want to take advantage of the limited time that we have so that we can really enjoy life to the fullest. I want you to hit the follow button right now to help more people find the show, but also help you never miss another episode. So let's get into it.

Philip Pape: 2:49

Today. This, again, is going to be a little bit less scripted on Wednesdays. Our Monday episodes will be the more traditional deep dives. For example, next Monday's episode will be on my stair step fat loss approach, what it is, how it compares to the traditional approach and how you can apply it to potentially make a fat loss phase much easier. And then on Wednesdays, like today, today's, the very first one you are going to hear me take something from engineering and apply it to fitness and nutrition. And then Fridays are our guest episodes, and sometimes we'll mix it up a little bit, but that's the general idea.

Philip Pape: 3:25

So here's the common issue that I want to address today that we all experience. We always fall into the trap of thinking that more is better, right? More sets, more exercises, more supplements, even more protein, whatever it is that more, more, more. And at some point we hit diminishing returns with some of those things. Right, we only have so much time in the day, we only have so many resources, we only have so much money, we only have so much mental energy and there's only so much of that energy you can put into any one thing, and I'm guilty of this. But there are certain things I like more than others, so I will spend more time on them, even if it doesn't produce much for the effort. Right, and as an engineer by background, I see this as a classic case of inefficient resource allocation. Right, in engineering, we're always looking for ways to optimize systems to get the most output for the least input, and if you can apply that principle to your life, it's going to make things a whole lot less stressful and a lot easier. And I'm going to break it down and make it simple. Even though I'm talking about engineering, I am not expecting you to, you know, deal with jargon or lingo or any of that stuff, but I do like to take frameworks that have already been rigorously built and tested over decades in an industry where people have to design products that keep people safe, like airplanes and cars, for example, and they've figured out ways to optimize resources. And we could do that with our bodies. Our bodies are these beautiful machines that can be very efficient, and our time is very limited. So when we combine the two, we can get something very powerful.

Philip Pape: 5:08

Okay, this is where the Pareto principle or the 80-20 rule comes in handy. And the Pareto principle suggests that roughly 80% of the effect, the output, the result, comes from 20% of the causes or the effort, right? So in fitness terms, 80% of your results can come from 20% of your efforts. Now, this is just a rough guide, right? We don't have to actually be precise with the numbers, but the idea is this Think about this If you don't go to the gym at all, okay, what is your result?

Philip Pape: 5:45

Nothing, right, and sometimes worse than nothing. Like, you lose muscle mass and you get, you know, weaker with time. But if you went into the gym, even one day a week, you're going to move that needle up significantly from nothing to a meaningful something. Right Now, it may not be enough of a something to really push the growth like you want it, and that's where there's this threshold, where we say look, if you can get to the gym two days a week, you're probably going to start to grow your strength and muscle and be able to keep adding weight to the bar or reps every time you go to the gym. Right, and some people argue you could do it once a week if you train to the gym. Right, and some people argue you could do it once a week if you train super, super, super hard that one day. But there's some practical considerations here, like going one day a week. It's hard to be consistent. It may not be as enjoyable just doing it one day a week. How do you make it a routine, things like that? But besides that, I would say three days a week is where we see roughly 20% of your effort now is going to the gym and you're getting 80% of the results.

Philip Pape: 6:52

Right, and let's put that into hard, practical numbers. If you go to the gym three days a week and you do three or four exercises of, say, three sets, you're probably doing about 10 sets per muscle group per week, probably around seven to 10. And we've got to talk now about optimal versus good enough. When we talk about optimal in the industry, we talk about maximum output For you, the maximum output in terms of your muscle growth and your strength would be getting as much as 20 hard sets per muscle group per week. You'd have to be in the gym probably five or six days a week for 90 minutes. Do you want to do that? Can you do that? Does that make sense in your life? That's what I'm talking about. However, if you have as little as five hard sets a week and you go in three days for maybe 45 minutes, maybe not even that long, the research shows us that you can get significant hypertrophy, significant muscle growth doing that.

Philip Pape: 7:52

And so, when you think of the whole spectrum, when we think about resource allocation, if you're going to the gym five days a week and you're able to cut two of those days out and your results drop only by like 5%. You know they've gone from, say, 85 to 80%, but now you've saved two out of five days of your week. That's 40% of your week in the gym. Imagine now what you can do with that freed up time. You can get an extra hour, hours of sleep, right. You can get some other productivity, some things done for work. You can spend some time with your family. You could just relax right and recover, go for a walk, and the reason this is on my mind right now is the exact thing I told you about this podcast. We are switching from five episodes a week down to three, so very much like you can go from five days a week in the gym down to three days a week in the gym. My supposition, my assumption, my prediction, is that I'll be able to bring you more quality content in fewer days per week. You will be able to consume that content without feeling like you're falling behind or having to skip or delete episodes, and you will then get more out of it and your life will be changed for the better because of me going from five down to three.

Philip Pape: 9:06

I've had countless clients who were in a similar situation. They were doing too much, they loved to go to the gym and so they would work out almost every day. Maybe it was six days, maybe it was seven days. Now, it wasn't always strength training, sometimes it was a group class or a Peloton spinning, maybe they played tennis. And when we stepped it back and said, okay, let's first prioritize what's important and then identify the amount of effort you actually need to put in that minimum amount of effort to get all the results you really need and then save the rest for other stuff. So we're kind of applying two principles. Today we're applying the Pareto rule to 80, 20, where 20% of your effort gets 80% of the results. But we're also coupling that with the law of diminishing returns, like when you do more than that 20%, now you're only eking out a little bit more percentage. Right, they go hand in hand. So if you put in 25 or 30% of the effort now, you might get 90% of the results. Now you put in 40, 50, 60% of the effort, now you get 95%. And then you'd have to put in, you know, 100% of the effort to get the 100%. That's what we mean.

Philip Pape: 10:09

Same thing goes for cardio. We shouldn't be doing cardio to burn calories. We should be doing cardio for cardiovascular health, for our overall longevity, biomarkers, things like that. And for most people there's a certain minimum that's gonna get them a huge step change from not healthy at all, very sedentary, sitting around all day, high mortality rate, high disease rate, up to you're just fine. And that is not five hours a week of cardio, that might be an hour or two right Now. If you look at some of the recommendations, you might hear things like 120 or 150 minutes a week of cardio. That might be an hour or two right Now. If you look at some of the recommendations, you might hear things like 120 or 150 minutes a week, which again is only two, two and a half hours. And, frankly, if you're lifting heavy two or three days a week, there's a lot of that quote unquote cardio built into that. If you're walking a lot, you're also getting cardio.

Philip Pape: 10:56

So you see, where I'm going is we're trying to balance all these things or, more accurately, integrate them into your life, and you can't go all out on everything. You can go all out all out on perhaps one thing If you are super passionate about it, like we talked to Ben Lewis on the podcast and he gets in 60 miles of running a week, plus he lifts weights, but he is super passionate about endurance training and competition and he loves it, just like I'm super passionate about nutrition science. But I don't expect all of you listening to this podcast to just be spending hours and hours and hours learning about it. Hopefully you just have to listen to a few podcasts, including this one, and I'm hoping that it's number one on your Spotify playlist or that you gave it a five-star review on Apple, but either way, you might be just doing too much and need to scale it down. So, whether that's cardio or training or exercise variety or your meal planning strategy, are you overdoing it somewhere? And I'm going to tell you how to apply this principle to your life so that it's not just theory. All right, so how do we apply the 20% of your effort to get 80% of the result and not going past that and getting diminishing returns and just wasting time?

Philip Pape: 12:09

I suggest you make a list. Get out a piece of paper or do this in your, you know, like a Google doc or whatever. Make a list of the five things that are most important to you for your health and fitness. Really, the sky's the limit, but I'm going to give you some ideas, all right, that are probably going to be on the list Strength training, tracking your nutrition or your macros. Right, eating enough protein could be its own category. Eating enough fiber, getting enough steps you know enough walking in, getting enough sleep or high quality sleep, or both managing your stress you can definitely.

Philip Pape: 12:47

There may be other specific things on the list for you. For you, it might be emotional eating. Specifically, Write down five things that are the most important for you right now. And then I want you to, next to that, write down how much effort you're putting into it every week. Imagine that zero is zero and a hundred percent is. You're obsessed about it, you can't stop thinking about it, it's all you put, it's all you spend time on, right, most of you are not going to be at. You might be at zero, I don't know, but you're probably not going to be at a hundred percent. But you might be at, let's say, 50% or 75%. If, let's say, you strength train five days a week or you go to the gym six days a week, I would put that at like 75% effort right, it's most of the week. And then look at the one that has the highest number and circle it. That is the thing where you could potentially reduce the amount that you're doing down to the 20% mark, still get amazing results. And now you've freed up that resource, which is probably time for something else. So again, it's very simple.

Philip Pape: 13:53

Let's recap. Number one identify the areas that are important to you. Number two identify the area where you're doing too much. And then, number three reallocate the time and energy from that to another area. Right, the goal is not to do more of everything, it's to do the right amount of the things that matter most. And if you could rebalance your efforts, because we talk about balance, but balance doesn't mean doing everything all out in equal parts. It means integrating it into your life in a natural way that's enjoyable. They still get you the result. So if you can rebalance your effort, based on the 80-20 rule, the Pareto principle, you don't just change how you approach this, you're actually changing your mindset to allow yourself the freedom and the time to do other things and still get the result All right.

Philip Pape: 14:38

So I said it would be a little bit unscripted and it was. If you enjoyed the episode, let me know if you didn't or think I can improve Again. This is the first one. I'm going to continue improving on these. You know this is. This is step one. This is like when you go to the gym the very first time and you try a squat you've never done it before time. And you try a squat you've never done it before. You're clumsy, you're imbalanced all over the place. That's like this episode for me.

Philip Pape: 14:59

Granted, I have some other foundations, having done, you know, 300 episodes at this point, but I want these to be very helpful going forward If you want help engineering your strategy using this principle. I've got something new going on, so I used to do these 30 minute calls. I'm now doing something that's shorter and more fast paced and it's a 15 minute rapid nutrition assessment. It's not a sales call. I've said this before. I'm not going to sell you anything, trust me. I'm not going to mention my coaching at all.

Philip Pape: 15:27

What I like to do is meet people and help you identify where you might be overdoing it and how to rebalance your efforts. We're going to come away with the one thing that's really holding you back that you can change and a quick three-step action plan to get you results quickly. That's really all it is. So to book your free 15-minute rapid nutrition assessment, click the link in the show notes or go to witsandweightscom and click free call at the top. Actually, there's a link now at the top of the website, on the top right, a big button that says uh, rapid nutrition assessment. So again, click the link in the show notes or go to my website, witsandweightscom, click the big button at the top right and we'll have that discussion. We can say hello, we can meet and come up with that quick action plan for you. Until next time, keep using your wits, keep lifting those weights and remember, in fitness as in engineering, it's not about doing more, it's about doing right. I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits and Weights podcast.

From 280 Pounds to Well-Muscled Boston Qualifier at Age 55 with Hybrid/Concurrent Training | Ep 188

Have you ever dreamed of running a marathon but felt it was impossible due to your weight or fitness level? Or that lots of cardio will kill your muscle and gains? Discover how Ben went from 280 pounds to qualifying for the Boston Marathon at 55 without losing muscle mass.

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) interviews Ben Lewis, who began his fitness journey at 52, weighing over 280 pounds. Now, at 55, Ben has transformed his life, shedding over 100 pounds and improving his cardiovascular health while building muscle. Ben's remarkable story includes qualifying for the Boston Marathon, showcasing the potential of combining weight loss with muscle gain.

Philip and Ben dive deep into the strategies that enabled Ben's incredible transformation. They discuss the importance of balancing nutrition, training, and physique goals, all while doing what you love. Ben shares insights on sustainable fat loss, hybrid training approaches, and the significance of setting realistic goals. He also emphasizes the role of mindset and consistency in achieving long-term success.

Tune in to learn from Ben's journey and discover practical tips for reclaiming your health and fitness. Whether you're just starting or looking to refine your approach, this episode offers valuable lessons on balancing various aspects of fitness while maintaining a fulfilling lifestyle.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:35 What goes through Ben's mind during his workout
4:49 Training for the Boston Marathon
6:31 His fitness journey and weight fluctuations
12:51 His fitness journey starting at age 52
16:20 Lessons and motivations from his initial 2021 weight loss
21:21 Tracking progress and managing the scale
26:46 Maintaining a calorie deficit and recomposition
30:51 Using the Physique Tracker (a WWPU tool)
40:10 Hybrid training: balancing lifting and running
53:05 Prioritizing performance vs. health
57:31 What question Ben wished Philip had asked
1:00:08 Advice for others on a similar journey
1:03:48 How to connect with Ben
1:04:40 Outro

Episode resources:

• Join our Facebook group to get the FREE physique tracker

• Ben’s IG: @benelou_fitness 

Episode summary:

Maintaining muscle mass and cardiovascular health as we age can be a challenging endeavor. In a recent podcast episode, Ben Lewis, at 55, shares his transformative journey of losing over 100 pounds and qualifying for the Boston Marathon. This episode offers a treasure trove of insights on balancing intense workouts, strategic nutrition, and the importance of a positive mindset.

The episode kicks off with an inspiring overview of Ben Lewis's fitness journey. At 55, Ben has managed to redefine his health by shedding a significant amount of weight and qualifying for one of the most prestigious marathons in the world. His story is not just about losing weight but about finding a sustainable way to integrate both lifting and running into his daily regimen. He emphasizes the importance of strategic nutrition, which plays a pivotal role in fueling his intense workouts. Ben's mindset strategies, such as planning intense workouts with the knowledge of an easier session later, are crucial in keeping him motivated and focused.

One of the key discussions in the episode revolves around the complexities of weight loss sustainability. Ben shares his personal journey, which began with a community weight loss challenge. Initially, rapid weight loss was achieved through intense dieting and exercise. However, this approach was not sustainable in the long run. The episode delves into the emotional and psychological aspects of weight loss, highlighting why internal motivators often triumph over external validation. Lifestyle disruptions can significantly impact long-term health goals, making it essential to embrace sustainable practices.

Personalized nutrition is another critical topic covered in the episode. Ben talks about how tracking food intake can lead to better dietary choices. The use of modern fitness tools, such as the Zozo suit, is discussed in detail. This technology provides accurate body measurements, helping individuals track muscle gain and fat loss effectively. The episode emphasizes the importance of avoiding extremes in training and creating a strategic, flexible plan that aligns with both health and performance goals.

The episode also explores the power of seizing moments of opportunity for weight loss success. Ben reflects on his experience and the turning point that led him to take actionable steps towards his health. Creating moments of opportunity, even during busy schedules, can be crucial for overcoming insecurities and making lasting changes. The early progress in weight loss can build momentum, making it easier to stay committed to the journey.

Another significant aspect discussed is the importance of sustainable nutrition. Ben shares his approach to crafting a personalized meal plan that works for individual needs. The flexibility of making informed dietary choices without adhering to rigid diet rules is emphasized. Tools like the Ninja Creami can revolutionize the enjoyment of healthy foods, such as creating high-protein, low-calorie ice cream. Incorporating whole, unprocessed foods into the diet is crucial for long-term success.

Modern technology's role in fitness progress is highlighted through the use of the Zozo suit for body measurements. This tool, along with a physique tracker, provides accurate insights into body composition changes. By tracking muscle gain and fat loss, individuals can make informed dietary adjustments, even while maintaining a calorie deficit. The episode also touches on the significance of easy, zone two running in increasing mileage without compromising muscle mass.

The journey of balancing fitness and health goals, especially as we age, is a recurring theme in the episode. At 52, Ben recognized the importance of preventing muscle loss and improving cardiovascular fitness. He shares his experience of integrating weightlifting and running, adopting a balanced approach that prioritizes current goals. Seasonal periodization is discussed as a strategy to balance health, fitness, and performance goals effectively.

The importance of strategic planning for sustainable fitness is another crucial topic. The episode highlights the value of creating a 12-month plan by reverse engineering from significant dates and events. Setting realistic and flexible goals is essential for long-term success. The discussion emphasizes the need for grace and adaptability when life events interfere with plans. A high-energy, well-fed state is beneficial for effective body recomposition and slow, sustainable weight loss.

The episode concludes with a multifaceted approach to health and fitness. Finding joy in different modalities of movement, such as running and lifting, is emphasized. The potential pitfalls of extreme behaviors in these activities are also addressed. The psychological relationship with the scale is discussed, highlighting how tracking weight daily can shift it from a source of stress to just another data point.

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:01

Imagine starting a fitness journey at 52, weighing over 280 pounds, and now at 55 Feeling better than ever after losing over 100 pounds, improving cardiovascular health and building muscle, maybe you've taken up running and you want to maintain muscle while shedding fat. Maybe you're eager to reclaim your health at the same time. In today's episode, we're talking to someone who did just that. He used our physique development approach to massively improve his health and body composition. While qualifying for the Boston Marathon, you're going to learn from him how to balance it all how to balance nutrition, training and physique goals while doing what you love.

Philip Pape  00:40

Today have been Louis on the show, then use our physique tracker to help him track measure and achieve a truly remarkable transformation, shedding over 100 pounds and qualifying for Boston at 55. Like we said in the intro, while building and maintaining muscle mass at the same time, yes, you can prioritize what you love to do, and what kind of athlete you want to be and still achieve your physique and health goals. We'll explore his transformation, the strategies he used for sustainable fat loss and how he makes it all work. Plus, later on, Ben is going to share his number one tip if you're trying to prioritize performance and health at the same time, Ben, welcome to the show.

Ben Lewis  01:17

Thank you. Appreciate it. Good to be here.

Philip Pape  01:20

So we met in our Facebook group, and then it's on its Facebook group. And we're like, Let's get together because you have an incredible story. I mean, you know, we love posting photos and looking at the before and after and all that. But really, it's it's what's deep down inside and kind of the process you went through to get there and why this thing works and what didn't work. So just to start off, I want to put the audience in your shoes, you know, okay, you're about to start one of your training sessions right now, maybe it's one of your hybrid training sessions, you're training for the marathon, whatever it is, maybe you're lifting and running, you know, I don't know, you're gonna tell us what it looks like? Yeah, well, I want you to take us there right into the gym or your favorite trail, or wherever it is, what is going through your mind as you prepare to tackle the disciplines involved?

Ben Lewis  02:02

Oh, wow, what's going through my mind. So typically, I either run or lift first thing in the morning. So I'm getting up out of bed, getting some nutrition and depending on which one I'm doing first on a particular day. And I'm really just thinking about the workout just thinking about what I need to do what I need to accomplish, what's the purpose of this particular workout today. So say, for example, I'll just I'll talk about today, because so today that I did a I did leg day, first in the gym. So you know, I was knowing that today is we're recording this on a Thursday and Saturday is my long run day. So I knew I had to I've got two days before my long run. So I knew I could really push it on the legs. So I'm really thinking about you know, how I'm gonna lean into the bulk area, I was doing Bulgarian split squats, Romanian deadlift, some cable step ups. And so I'm just I'm really going in thinking about getting now hard knowing that I had an easy run after that. And so yeah, I go, I go in, hit that workout, get some more food, get some, get a couple of magical days, get some carbs. And I actually eat a little bit of protein before I left when I do a lift and run back to back. So I had a had a protein shake, and some banana and prunes before I went then have Medjool dates afterward. And I took off for a seven mile super easy run. I know that for those who kinda like your listeners probably have more strength training focus. So seven miles does not sound easy. But in terms of in terms of the taxing this Oh, my cardiovascular system, I knew this because I'm gonna be super easy on this one thing, how to actually start it and I recorded one today, I will force myself to be able to sing a song that while I'm running. So yeah, real low heart rate. You know, I know zone trainings, real popular these days, we'll we'll run was actually about 60%. Zone one and 50% zone two. So it's, it's going to be that easy. And I'm just kind of pushing that run. And yeah, cool. That was fun. And it was faster than I would have anticipated to zone one. Zone two. Right. So that was nice, too. So awesome.

Philip Pape  04:01

Yeah, I meant that sounds like a lot of fun. And definitely more than a lot of listeners probably do in a typical training session. Because yeah, you're right, we're focused on lifting. And I remember years ago, attempting to train up to a half marathon and once I was at four miles or above, I'm like, this is a lot. And, you know, I've done five K's and I'm like, that even just like wins me. But a couple things you mentioned was you know, hitting it hard knowing you had an easy run after that, that strikes me as like a really good kind of mindset approach or trick where you know, you're contrasting things and saying like, you know, it's not going to be bad that bad. So I should go after it now. And then you mentioned you know, you got very specific on your protein, carbs and I love people are always asking what should I eat before workout? And you talked about some fruit, some dried fruit prunes day. I love that you got specific there. And then with the zones and all that. Yeah, man. So like, what are you training for right now?

Ben Lewis  04:51

So theoretically, I'm going to do another marathon in December. I qualified for Boston. This past December. However, Have you listeners may not be aware for the Boston Marathon, it's the number one, you have to hit a standard time for your aid. So I made that standard by about a minute and a half. However, based on the number of people who have put in applications, sometimes they have to cut off that time even further than the standard. So my standard was three hours and 35 minutes. I did 333. And some change. My strong suspicion is that I will qualify, I got the t shirt, but I won't get in the race.

Philip Pape  05:29

That's not fair. Yeah. Yeah,

Ben Lewis  05:31

there was a lot of consternation about it last this year for the 20, the one that just passed a couple months ago in April, it was like a five and a half minute buffer you had to have. And, frankly, I did well, and I qualified for Boston. But I felt like even then I felt like I could have done better. There was some mitigating circumstances that day. So I really, I want to crush the marathon. I want to conquer the marathon in December, run Boston in 2026. And then frankly, be done with marathons moved on to the half distance to shorter distance. Yeah. We could talk more about that later. But yeah, yeah, I want the server to be my third marathon in Boston to be my last marathon.

Philip Pape  06:07

Okay. And again, you your attitude, I love it, man. It's infectious. Like I want one of people to hear that. Because you're like, well, it's worth celebrating that you qualified. And yet, it doesn't have to be enough. Like you want more. And that's fine, right? Like, I totally get that of, there's a healthy frustration that drives you. And that's cool, right? Like, there's a point where it can get too much. And there's a there's a point where there's maybe not enough where you're just not pushing enough. Let's go back in time, because I want the listener to kind of go through your history here, and start about 10 years ago, right? 2013, you got down to about 175 pounds from what what were you at your max,

Ben Lewis  06:44

the max when I stepped on a scale was 277. Okay, I don't you know, when you're when you're when you're overweight, like that, at least me. So I grew up, I grew up as an athlete, and you know, playing basketball in high school and all that stuff. And you know, that I represent a lot of guys that, I think, you know, we could eat whatever we wanted to because we were so active when we were younger, you know, I was playing I was playing ball for five days a week for two or three hours. Literally, I had a bowl of I pull a butter pecan ice cream every night before I went to bed. And I weighed 155 pounds when I graduated high school and 510. So anyway, so yeah, I had some not good eating habits, and those slowly over time ballooned into I was about to 78 when I was 4344 years old, however old that was in 2013. And actually, a guy from my church started a Facebook group, I'd never heard of it. He's, he's it was he started a Facebook group at the beginning of 2013. And he invited, he was overweight. And he invited basically kind of all the overweight dudes that were heavily involved in the church to a Facebook group, and he called it let's lose it, fellas, I wouldn't looked it up again today, because let's lose it fellas. It was it was using the lose it app, which I didn't even Yeah, I didn't know there were weight loss. This was 2013 I don't even know there were weight loss apps at the time. And so it was just kind of a lark. And I was like, I really, yeah, I need to do this. And it's in the back of my head. You know, I'm, I'm 40. At that point, I guess I'm 43 My wife is pregnant with our second child. And I know I'm going to be 62 when she graduates from high school. And, um, you know, class to obese. And, you know, I'm worried about health, I want to be around for my daughters. And you know, we have an older daughter than her as well. So it was kind of always in the back of my mind, this is something I need to to I need to deal with this. I need to take care of this. I need to get back to a healthy weight.

Philip Pape  08:33

Yeah, health was a driver, but but the values were really like living for your family and being there and yeah, not being and like you said, you're representing a lot of other people. I mean, men and women who hear this who life has made things very different than in their 20s. And they're getting older, and they haven't kept up with things. So you had you did lose a bunch of weight back then, but maybe not in the right way. We want to understand what that looked like so that we can contrast it to what you did later.

Ben Lewis  08:59

So you know, I went in the app and the app gives you the option. How much weight do you want to lose per week and it maximizes the two pounds, so I chose two pounds. I was able to do it as fast possible. I really, I can't tell you other than I just want to do this why I chose the fastest weight loss. It didn't make any there's no logical reason for it. Like it wasn't, oh, I want to get 10 for this event. I didn't have anything coming up. No, no, nothing like that. It was just not want to lose as fast as possible. I didn't know any better. I didn't know any better either. So and you know, they had forums, lose it have forums back then. And people were saying, well don't eat back your exercise calories either. And you know, I started exercising. And so, you know, I was 510 270 some pounds, eating 2300 down to I think 1800 calories a day. And by the end, you know, I started running and I was lifting a little bit I was running a little too. I was doing probably more cardio than I should have for body composition stuff. But anyway, I was running, lifting and doing all the things and basically the weight loss I I looked at the journey looked at the the journal that I have of that it was like two and a half, three pounds, virtually every week for the past seven months.

Philip Pape  10:09

So good solid 1% or more of your weight every week. Yeah, gotta be,

Ben Lewis  10:13

it was more than when I was still losing three pounds a week, two and a half to three pounds a week when I was 210 to 100. I mean, and so it was getting harder and harder. So I'd have these big, you know, you get starving, you have a big band that goes up, then you then you can grit your teeth for two weeks. And then you then you just can't take it and you grit your teeth. And it was just it was I did it. But it was not sustainable. And long story short, it kind of all fell apart. When I started running. I got pretty fast he I was getting some attention for that. And so I was on Strava, which is a running app that you know, folks, you share your runs, and everybody's getting all these likes, and blah, blah, blah. And then we ended up we moved, we lived in Charleston, South Carolina at the time we moved to Greensboro, North Carolina. And you know, the time right before the move, when you got all your stuff packed up, and you're eating carrot takeout, like every single night. And then three or four weeks after you're eating takeout every single night, because you're still unpacking and I put on weight, didn't have time to exercise. And my times were a lot slower. And again, it was so outwardly focused on people seeing how good I was doing how well I was doing. And I wasn't doing as well. And I just kind of went I really I went into a cocoon and basically gained it all back over the course of you know, it was a slow, kind of slow game back to I ended up heavier than I started even. And so I won't go into all that detail. But I guess you want to take that to the beginning of 20, or the end of 2021. Yeah,

Philip Pape  11:51

let's hit on some of this, right? Because I'm sure people are listening thinking like, oh, man, I can identify with so much of that. First of all the external validation that you are seeking, right? It's like, you put that in the bucket of of motivators that are outside of you that maybe aren't sustainable as motivators, right, or even unhealthy motivators, the fast food while moving. So we built our house in 2018. Now, that was a couple years before I got into this stuff as well, myself. And then I became really good friends with the McDonald's manager. Because it's like a, it's like a block away from me. And I was like, just exhausted and distracted. And it's like, easy, it's convenient. And you don't have a routine, you don't have this discipline that you probably have now. And then you gain it all back. Like you said, you probably didn't gain it back at three pounds a week, like you've lost it. And people need to understand that, right? Because we're why people think, Oh, I just got fat all of a sudden, or I just gained a buck. But if you really are honest with yourself, it probably took a long time. Yes. You know, and which is means it's, you can easily reverse it, you know, with the right approach. So, all right, fast forward to just about three years ago, 2021, you were 52? And then your backup to 280 or 277. Max, but whatever. No, no, it

Ben Lewis  13:01

was more than that. It was out. Yeah, this

Philip Pape  13:02

one was more than that. Okay, got it.

Ben Lewis  13:04

I have to tell you the before picture I posted in the group. Technically it was from 2020. It was December 2020. My birthday was my 52nd birthday. And I was gonna start, you know, right at the New Year, because my birthday is in late December. And I was gonna start right the new year. And that, and I didn't. And I didn't the funny thing, I can't really tell you what happened, because I don't really remember the detail. But in March of 2021. So I really started in terms of like tracking my food, paying attention to what I was doing. March 15 2021. Somebody asked me what what clicked and I said, honestly, it was probably a non busy weekend where I had time to plan and get get a couple of meals together and cook a couple of things ahead of time. That probably was what it was to be honest, it was just because, you know, again, it's in my head for all this time that I've got to do this, I've got to take care of this. I've got to take care of this. And so you know, I think about like these online trolls that love the body shaming people I'm going there's probably two categories of people that are obese. There's people like me who are, it's constantly in your head. It's not not not a little it is constantly in my head every time. Every night when I could walk upstairs and I'm winded after a walk upstairs, I've got to take care of this. Every time there's, you know, I go I see people out in public, I've got to take care of this. You know, every time there's an event back in my hometown and I want to go to and I'm thinking I don't want anybody to see me like this. I gotta take care of it. It's just it is a constant battle. So it's not like I didn't you know, it's not like I was never thinking about it. I was always thinking about it, but something Something hit that second week, third weekend of March and 2021 before

Philip Pape  14:45

because I want to hear what the second type of person is. But when you were would you verbalize that often as well or was it mostly in your head? Oh, it was here. It was it was it was it wasn't like to everybody like I gotta get gotta get back in shape. I gotta do my wife your life. Yeah, okay, okay. to

Ben Lewis  15:00

my wife, but no, not not out in public or anything. I would just say the second type of person, they probably they're not concerned about it either. And, you know, why are you concerned about it? They're so concerned about ambient leave people alone. That's my point. There's no matter where they're at, just leave them alone.

Philip Pape  15:14

Okay. It's your it's your personal journey. Absolute. You have to be ready for it. You can. Yeah.

Ben Lewis  15:18

So anyway, yeah, it's not helpful when I know. And I think most people are probably where I was the vast majority of where I was of, oh, my gosh, I need to take care of this. I don't need somebody else beat me up. I'm beating myself up enough. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. And

Philip Pape  15:31

that, and that applies? I mean, honestly, that applies to so many insecurities we have about ourselves. Yeah, just be true. It may be a little overweight, and maybe just your physique in general, and maybe you know, something related to work or your relationship or whatever. It's like, yeah, you're constantly telling yourself, I've got to do this. So what prevents people from doing it? I love what you said, though, when you talked about taking non busy weekend and planning, like that actually struck me because I know, I'm a really busy guy, right? You can imagine, okay, I've seen the podcast in the work and everything else. Sometimes surprisingly, I just have this like two hour block of nothing, just very surprisingly, and rarely. And when that happens, if I could just sit down, like do something that's just been totally neglected. It can take your mind off, you know, the stress of it, but also gives you this insight and clarity to go forward and take action. So is the lesson from that, that we have to like, create those moments? Have you thought about that too much?

Ben Lewis  16:25

That's a great question. I haven't thought a ton about it. But I think you know, ultimately, yeah, it's it's creating. I mean, if I had created that space at another time, I mean, my goodness, it was dependent. You know, this, we're talking coming to the tail, the pandemic. It's not that I didn't have non busy weekends in 2020. I mean, come on. We all busy weekends. And 2020 Beginning of the pandemic, I did lose a little bit got destroyed. I don't remember why I got distracted, but I did. So but creating that space, and really just seizing that moment. Yeah, I think that's not waiting till Monday, not waiting till the New Year, I just seizing the moment when it comes.

Philip Pape  17:01

But there's magic in that man and I think, gonna necessarily sit on this topic. But there's a lot of people probably listening who are like getting motivated by this podcast and not taking action. I hope most people are. But if they're not like where you were, what is it that they can do to seize that moment, besides just do it? And I know, sometimes it is just do it. But seriously, people want to know, like, what's the secret? Ben? What are your thoughts? I know, you're not a guru. And we're just asking honest opinions here?

Ben Lewis  17:28

It's a great question. Yeah, I would say this progress definitely gives you momentum. And early on, I think momentum is is critical and crucial. So, you know, progress could be a number on the scale, it could be yet last week, I was able to jog for 30 seconds. And this week, I can jog for 35 seconds, it's you know, it's seeing something where there's some sort of tangible evidence of okay, this is working, I am getting better. Now, that's dangerous. Because sometimes, you know, we know the scale can be a fickle master. And you know, it may be that you're more tired and you're, you're a little bit slower than you were last week, your heart rate goes a little higher, whatever metric you might be using. Good that can be dangerous, but you know, save and trusting the process, at some point of this stuff works, it really does. And I can say that and we may get into that more,

Philip Pape  18:21

I'll go into this no one

Ben Lewis  18:23

really does work. It is. It is math and science in the final analysis, but there's definitely a mental mindset piece of it. But there's a lot of math and science involved too.

Philip Pape  18:34

I can totally empathize with that you know that I'm a geek at heart and nerd I like to do. And like you're right, sometimes you just have to say it, almost like forget what you're thinking and your emotion about it. And just say you've got a process, you've got some numbers planted out, start doing it, see what happens, you know, like test it out. But this is really important because the insight here for people listening is okay, you've got to see some sort of moment, you got to have the space to do that. You've got to seize it, and then do something that gives you quick progress quick wins to get motivation. What were those for you in the first like month or two back in 2021?

Ben Lewis  19:06

Well, I started tracking my calories, I got a calorie count, it was higher than what I was doing back in 2013. But still not probably not high enough ultimately. And that that change over time, you didn't see the scale move, actually the first couple of two or three days it went up and then it started going down. I had a bicycle and I started riding in the neighborhood. And you know one thing when you are really really out of shape that I found this to be in 2020 13 as well as in 2020. Why? When you're really really out of shape you make progress pretty toggle

Philip Pape  19:40

is so low your baseline so low, so the relative to

Ben Lewis  19:44

remember the numbers but you know, I probably did a 10 minute bike ride on this street at seven miles per hour the first week and it's probably eight or nine miles per hour the second week just oh, okay, I'm getting better. It was probably that big of a difference almost quit you know had to do it every other day. And I would recommend, you know, whatever cardio whatever strength training you're doing, don't try to do it every day. Take a you know, every other day, take a rest, the walk or jog walk, we're gonna start over, that's what I would do. I would jog for 30 seconds and walk for three minutes and jog for 30 seconds and walk for three minutes, probably how I would structure it. And if you can't jog for 30 seconds, jog for 15 seconds if you can't jog at all, walk for 30 minutes, just track. So I did see I saw my bike ride. I did not start I didn't start in 2013 was running it all I was afraid of my weight and my knees. Make

Philip Pape  20:33

sense? Yeah. So again, another powerful quote, you said when you're out of shape, you make faster progress. I mean, like, that's a great thing to latch on to, because that's a positive reframing of being out of shape. It's like, it's funny because I I'll have like these discovery calls with somebody who's like 300 something pounds, we just had a new client set up who's you know, on the heavier side, and I smile, I like have this big smile, like, I'm so jealous of you right now. Because you have so much opportunity to change from where you are, it actually doesn't have to be that hard, because you've got some benefits of being out of shape. And it's like, it's a weird way to think about it. But like, if you have excess fat, that's energy that your body will start using early on. That actually makes it easy to lose weight and easy to build muscle versus Rosina. Yep. Right? So that's kind of like reframing of wherever you are, you've got things going for, you've got some strengths to go with. That's pretty cool. Why don't we get into some nuts and bolts? I mean, start with nutrition, since you mentioned tracking macros, you know what, you can either go back then or you can just say like, how it's evolved. And like, what what your general philosophy has been Trisha, you know,

Ben Lewis  21:32

I'll tell you one thing, and I am a big fan of tracking protein and calories, not necessarily all not all the macros, and my primary reason I'm not a fan of meal plan at all. And my reason for that is, you know, I want to feel empowered to make these decisions myself. And when I started tracking, you start learning, I learned that walnuts are healthy, but they are luck. I mean, they're just a lot of calories. I learned what was worth it, and what wasn't worth it quote, unquote, you know, what, what indulgences were worth the calories and some some weren't worth it for me and I was it I was empowered to make that decision. It wasn't some named diet telling me you can't eat carbs or you must go less than 3050 grams of fat a day or you must do this. So it was me being able to say okay, you know, in some cases like I like cheddar cheese, but you know what I do reduce fat cheddar cheese now it doesn't pay on it. It just it's not worth it still scratching the

Philip Pape  22:29

itch of having cheese in it

Ben Lewis  22:31

but it's much it makes it worth it but I still eat walnuts I just eat fewer wow I love all but I not understanding I manage the amount of walnuts I eat so

Philip Pape  22:41

for you a healthy amount of walnuts is less walnuts. You know, there's like it's not like a walnut is healthy or not right. It's just for you less right is healthy. Yeah, there you go. Yeah,

Ben Lewis  22:50

I mean, it really was, I would want to work from home, I would want it in the kitchen and grab a handful of walnuts once every hour and a half or so. So I probably was eating 1000 calories a day in walnuts. I'm not exaggerating when I say that. It was probably 1000 calories a day in walnut. Oh yeah, love. Yeah, my wife joke like, oh my like, I'll get like, if talking about balance, I'll get like, you know, cheesecake home for dessert on my birthday. Say for example, I'll say You know, I want some walnuts on the side and why for interrupting? You don't understand how many walnuts he was. Just you don't understand he wants more walnuts and you've ever given anyone. So yeah, but so nutrition. So structuring my nutrition. Number one, like I said, I like tracking because it empowered is empowered me to figure out what's worth and what's not worth it, where I can do it and donors where I can decide you know what I don't I want chicken thighs not chicken breast and in order to do chicken thighs and chicken breasts. That means I'm going to do Greek yogurt for breakfast and not eggs. I'll do more egg whites and not not eggs for breakfast you know I can make those trade offs and I can make those decisions and they work for me I'm definitely a fan of vast majority is whole unprocessed foods of what I do in my diet and let fitting in the indulgences we just bought when I say just bought I just yesterday had my first from it the what's it called the creamy ninja creamy the things that oh my gosh, that thing is ridiculous. thing as a whole. I mean it's a game changer. absolute game changer. My 50 year old daughter heard me say that she's the one that got us to buy it and she's standing at my office door now looking very smug.

Philip Pape  24:45

Because then you could have ice cream that actually doesn't do the trade off that you have to make with ice cream.

Ben Lewis  24:51

I make. Yeah, I made a 350 Calorie pint of ice cream that has 40 grams. Yes, yes, the protein is a slicer but Ello eyes Korean Oh my gosh. Anyway, yeah, so I do a lot of vegetables, a lot of fruit. You know, the Beatles Ella's don't come from me. At this point, you know, because I'm running and lifting, I am in a cut at about 4100 calories a day average meeting men. Like consistently losing dropping body fat and, and gaining a hair muscle based on your calculator. Since mid January, just kind of since 2021, late 2021, I got down to under 190 or so, since late 2021. I haven't been above about 210 or 215 or so. And so you know, that's been between 175 and, and really the 210 to 15. That was a one time thing. So really between 175 and 205 for three years now. Yeah. So so two and a half years. Yeah. Anyway, but somebody nutrition.

Philip Pape  26:01

It's all good. These are all tangent. Trust me, I take notes, and we want to go off on these. Because that's when people are asking. I mean, first of all, I mean, sustainability is the the word we're the buzzword we always throw around, but there's a reason for that. And it sounds like you've taken that approach. I like how you said, Okay, you're not a fan of meal plans. Neither am I, I've done episodes about it all, I have one called the perfect meal plan. That's basically a mind shift when you listen to it, because it's like the perfect meal plan is the one that you make for yourself that works for you. Right? That's the spoiler alert. Yeah, 100%. And I just did one recently actually just came out this week how to allocate, you know, 1200 2003 1000 calories. But again, it's it's you got to be flexible and pick it for yourself. So that what you said was it empowers you to know what's worth it and not worth it. And I want people to understand how that that's distinguished from if you weren't tracking or you're trying to eat intuitively. And I understand there's a place where you could live that maintenance and not have to track and all that we know that. But tell us what your thoughts are on that, how it empowers you. Whereas if you weren't tracking, if you just ate mostly Whole Foods, why it might not be successful, you

Ben Lewis  27:07

know, this varies from person to person. And so I like to say that I am aware, I listen to a lot of podcasts, by the way. So I have heard you say that I'm sure but I've probably heard other people say it too. So I get they all kind of run together. I run like eight and a half hours a week and so I listen to podcasts. I'll run too fast if I listen to music so I listen to and I listen to a lot. I mean I'll help

Philip Pape  27:31

you listen to it. We want x or do you listen to it faster speeds. 1x 1x.

Ben Lewis  27:35

Just 1x. Just straight up, calm, easier, most of our runnings easier tracking versus not trying, I am aware from listening a lot of podcasts that people struggle with getting enough protein that is not if left to my own devices, I would eat three 400 grams of protein a day. I'm not kidding you. When I make even even now when I'll make a meal plan the day before, you know, here's what I'm going to eat the bar and it's invariably Okay, now where am I going to cut the protein so I can get enough carbs and fat. I know the time I know the time, okay, I can only eat eight ounces of chicken, I can't eat 10 You know, that kind of thing. So I can testify this I'm not a big I mentioned cheesecake. But other than that, I don't really like sweets, like candy. I don't like chips that don't eat any of that stuff. Even if even when not tracking I eat mostly whole unprocessed foods, you know, but I will eat too much of them. This just quite bluntly, I'll just I'll just eat too much. And I just kind of have to understand, you know, because I am super active. And I can get away with it to some degree now. So I will but I know myself. So I like to do it just to keep those numbers. I think I could do intuitive now if I wanted to. And in fact, I may do it when I hit maintenance. I'm probably what's this. I'm less than two months away from hitting where I want to be most likely probably in mid to late August I will get to right where I want to be body fat wise body composition wise and I will hit I'll go to maintenance for the official marathon training block. So I'm not trying to lose weight while training for a marathon. For me tracking this it keeps it rains me and in terms of here's what you need to do. And here's what you need to pay attention to. Yeah, for me intuitive would be too much protein too much fat. I'm not a carb hound. I get a man because I need to get him as my running and lifting. Yeah,

Philip Pape  29:23

so again, you're like dropping lots of wisdom bombs today. Seriously, you don't you don't even know it. But like, because the way you're phrasing things, people need to hear this. What Ben was just saying is like, he doesn't even eat all the things that are blamed on obesity and people getting fat right? Like too much sugar sweets. He doesn't eat that stuff. He eats mostly Whole Foods, but he just eats too much. I mean, how many times when we talked about just it really does come down energy balance even though there are 1000 roads to both sides of the energy balance equation that make it harder for people. And like for you it's just you want to eat maybe you don't like food, maybe you just crave it and you've got to track just to get the Add information, but that information empowers you to then make the trade offs to still enjoy what you want and get your results

30:07

out to Philippe an awfully for a long time and know how passionate he is about healthy eating and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. And now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently for most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a links from body is what you're looking for. fully paid is your guy.

Philip Pape  30:51

Speaking of tracking, and spreadsheets since you mentioned it, why don't we talk about the physique tracker, which is what got us here today originally, and kind of the overall method of tracking body composition. Just you tell us your story about using it and what you how it helped you.

Ben Lewis  31:04

Yeah, so you dropped that thing. When did I don't remember when you actually posted it? It was March or so

Philip Pape  31:09

when we launched Whitson weights physique university because it's one of the tools in there and I gave it Yeah, yeah, you gave

Ben Lewis  31:15

it out for free. And I grabbed it. I had, I don't know it's another product. I had just bought these Zozo suit if y'all have heard of that thing, it's uh, it measures your it does your body measurements for you, it's just a lot easier than using a tape measure.

Philip Pape  31:28

How much does that cost? Let me ask you, I'm curious. To 100 bucks, I really it's just, it's just a like neoprene or what's the material?

Ben Lewis  31:35

I think it isn't. It's just like a body suit. Yeah, they now offer a subscription with your phone, whether your phone would do it. And they say that the Zozo suit is 2.5 centimeters, or mil, point five, and the suit isn't. And then the phone is less accurate kind of thing. But honestly, I've done it with a suit. And I've done it with a tape measure. I think it's accurate enough that I can trust it. So anyway, I had some measurements with it. And then you drop this physique track. And I was like, Oh, let me start plugging these measurements in here and see what my body composition actually is. And what I saw was, okay, and I thought this was the case in this little cut. I've been here since January, but and this affirmed that, but I'm not losing any muscle man. Yep. I mean, and according to the tracker, I've gained one pound of muscle mass since January and dropped about 20 pounds of body fat, which is consistent with what I see in the mirror, because, but what it did for me is it allowed it, you know, it allowed me to trust the process even more and go, Okay, I can bump up and I was feeling like I was feeling at a hungry and I'm tempted to just grab all the things on these days and macro factor is telling me you can eat another 150 calories a day. And that now this tracker is saying, you know you are losing fat and gaining muscle. Alright, I'm gonna say yes to that extra 150 calories a day. And that was something that I was not, you know, eating the minimum number of calories now gotten more into the mindset of, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this thing, I'm gonna, I'm gonna increase things now. And even though you're on a cut, even though I'm on a cut, I'm gonna be willing to increase when, when it's and I have been increasing my running, I was intentionally trying to increase my running base. So it, it makes logical sense that I would be burning more calories, I am running 655 to 60 miles a week. I've never run more than I hit 60 Watts during my last marathon bill, but I've never consistently run at this level, this number of miles a week. So it makes all the logical sense in the world. But I'll be honest, without the physique tracker, I would have said, I don't think I'm gonna just stay where I am. I don't trust I'm not going to take these extra calories.

Philip Pape  33:42

That's awesome. I love that use case, man, because it shows you the value of having the different types of measurements. A lot of people will use the physique tracker in a very limited scope, just kind of before and after, you know, get the numbers and understand what happened. You use it to take action or at least to comfort your mind about what other data was telling you like that. triangulating you know like double checking. Yes. And that's why I love you know, not just scale weight, but trendway and body composition and measurements and biofeedback and all that. So that's pretty cool. Now you gained a pound. So here's what's interesting for people listening. I might as well offer the physique trackers like a freebie for this episode. So you know, I'll put a link to that. But it's just to be technical. It's it's lean body mass, which is organ weight plus muscle plus fluid. But since you're losing weight, it is mainly muscle you're looking at because you've you've effectively lost. So here's what usually happens when people will see a certain amount of loss of muscle and they'll get freaked out because it's a little more than they thought. And in reality, I'm like, hold on, when you go back to maintenance, some of that's going to come right back because it's not muscle. It's just fluid. Right? Right. But you actually saw go up. So in essence, if you apply the same logic, you actually might have gained even more than that and muscle. Did you think of Got that? No, no, I did.

Ben Lewis  35:02

You're right. That is a possibility. Yeah, cuz you pull in some fluid with the muscle. Yeah,

Philip Pape  35:06

yeah, yeah. Or you've lost fluid by being in a deficit and being in hydrated state. So if it's showing a net gain, you've actually gained more than what it's saying a tiny bit. And yeah, yeah. And you've demonstrated like you can potty recomp even when you're in a deficit,

Ben Lewis  35:21

even when you're deficit, and even when you're running 60 miles a week.

Philip Pape  35:24

So let me ask you about that. Would you recommend all the listeners that they should run 60 miles a week to increase their expenditure? Okay, all right. No, no, because people, people are like, Oh, that's how you eat 4000 calories. That's

Ben Lewis  35:37

why unless you have a marathon goal. And if there are some of y'all out there that do want to improve your running, there's some great podcasts that will help you with that running explains a great way. Scott, Alyssa lenok does the messy middle and she talks about, he talks a lot about hybrid training, too. But the number one thing is and I know that this is a buzzword now in the fitness world, but that zone two running that easier running. So my increase in mileage was I you know, running coaches will tell you do 80% of your runs easy 20% 80% of your mileage, easy, 20% hard, I was doing 90%, easy, 95% Easy during those weeks when I was increasing so that I could recover so that I could still lift and lift well, so that I wouldn't get injured in my running. So make sure that if you are if you do want to increase your writing, that you're increasing it slowly sustainably, that you can recover from and that's really where that zone two really shines. It's the most you can do and still recover easily. Because you don't have that built up a lactate, we won't get into all the technical. No,

Philip Pape  36:42

I got it. Same thing with lifting, right, it's like five to 10 Hard sets will start to get you toward the upper end of like the perfect amount where you still get a lot of recovery. Whereas if you get to like 15 to 20 sets, it's optimal to like build as much as possible, but now you're impeding recovery. So with running save, I've heard that too, from runners like Uber evolved their thinking over the time, especially as they get older, right? Because that's when you start to really feel it that no, come on, let's take a step back. And you'll actually get more results over the long term. Really good with your eating habits. Besides macros and calories, which I've been thinking of doing an episode that's like, cannot just be enough. In other words, sometimes we criticize, If It Fits Your Macros for being too simplistic. And we need to consider health factors and saturated fat and fiber and everything. Yeah, which I agreed with to an extent. But I also know when I started my journey, I just thought of macros, and it made a massive improvement for me. So what are your thoughts on?

Ben Lewis  37:37

Okay, there's the 80 to 90%. And there's the 10 to 20%. And so it kind of depends on where you are. So when I was 280 pounds, you know what, just dropping the body weight has huge improvement to all cause mortality, even if you do lose some muscle mass. And so I don't I don't recommend

Philip Pape  37:57

the case for the Olympic and all those drugs today. Yeah, but a lot of

Ben Lewis  38:01

there's a case for that. So, so it kind of how far away from healthy, whatever that means. Are you so you know? Yeah. Now I'm sitting here. I'm right at 180 right now, and I'm about somewhere 15 1617 18% body fat somewhere in there. So this is where some of those 10 to 20% things do start to matter a little bit more. Yeah. So my thought is, you know, major on the majors first getting your calories, getting your protein getting your strength training, getting some cardio. Yeah, you know, the things that Phillip did you talk about on your podcast. So those are the things that are going to drive, you know, whatever percentage it is, but a large percentage of those things a large percentage of those improvements, then, yeah, you may need to hit some dial in some other levels, when you start to get closer to ideal and you start to need, you know, in order to make progress, you need to get some of these other things. It's

Philip Pape  38:58

really important that you said that, right? Because yeah, 8020 9010 Whatever. It's counterintuitive, I think maybe for people who are a bit on the closer to obese weight side, and again, I've seen this I've had clients, mostly males who are upper two hundreds or low, three hundreds. And it's tough sometimes for them to want to eat more, I'm telling me more in some sense, and they're like, well, that doesn't jive with like, I've gained weight to all these years. But they're lifting and they're eating protein. And I'm like, I don't even care about your fiber and your saturated fat to be honest, like I really don't care because you know how much change is gonna happen just from what you're doing here. And then once your slimmed up bit, you're down to 225 to 50. And you're lifting you've got muscle, you're gonna be like, What do I do next? And you're naturally going to get there. So that's a good point.

Ben Lewis  39:41

I'm paying attention to saturated fat. Honestly, I don't back fiber because I eat so much fruit and vegetables. I was tracking it and then I started looking I was like over 70 grams every day. I'm like, why? I don't even look. Why am I even looking at this anymore? Because I'm hitting it. I just the way I eat. Yeah,

Philip Pape  39:58

and that's a good point. You may not for some People certain things are easy, and you just don't have to track or even care about it, because it just happens. And that's where you can take the stress off and not track everything, but track the things that you need to change. Yeah. So we talked about nutrition and some of the Sustainable fat loss stuff. I do want to talk about your training a little bit, because I talked a little bit about the running, you have a hybrid training approach. But what does that mean? You know, concurrent training, whatever, all the buzzwords are laid on us. Yeah, because this is not our, our strength as a podcast is not that. But I want people to understand what it's like.

Ben Lewis  40:28

So I want to just say how I started, I started thinking, Oh, my gosh, I'm 55 years old, or 5252. At the time, I'm 52 years old. This is when you start to lose muscle mass sarcopenia, I'm getting older that I don't want to lose muscle fat. So I need to not drop muscle mass as I dropped this weight. And also, I get winded every time I walk up the stairs, and I can't, you know do things that I want to do I have a large yard, I get really tired doing basic yard work, I need to improve my cardiovascular health, as well as just the daily activities of living. So I didn't come at this I didn't I've never heard of concurrent or hybrid or any of that stuff. It was just, these are two things that I know are good for my health. So I'm gonna do these two things. And eventually, somewhere along the line, I started podcasts and fitness Instagram. And, and this hybrid concurrent thing. It was what I was already doing. You know, but by the time I learned that term, I was probably lifting three to four days a week and running four to five days a week, you know, the 25, that's fine, the 30 ish mile run, you're doing a, I think I'll do an upper lower upper lower split. So the time maybe I'd switch to push both. I prefer push pull a six day push, pull leg, push, pull leg, but because I live close to my jam, I can get there easily. So point being Yeah, it was I came at it with a health mindset of these are things that are going to be good for my health and healthspan and lifespan. And so I just kind of attack both of them. And then at some point, you know, they started to, okay, how do I do both of these and have time for them? And you know, you have to just you have to figure out, you know, what season are you in right now, right now, I'm training for a marathon. And you know, if I listen to you, and I've heard you say this, you know, I listen to you. And you'll say well always do your lifting before you run it. You listen to runcoach. And they will say always do your running before you care about what you care about most you do first. And so I'm like, Oh, I've kind of adopted that from my own sort of, what am I focused on right now right now I'm building a vase, I'm running mostly easy running, I can really get lifting. So I am lifting first these days, I'm hitting, I'm working harder on my strength. I'm got a huge cardiovascular base. I mean, again, I'm running 60 miles a week. But I'm running easy. And I can do that with very little finally, even after a hard lifting session, I can run 3045 minutes later, and I really feel not seeing any substantive difference in like my performance, you know, my heart rate is this and my speed is that and that's probably right at what it would have been if I hadn't lifted beforehand. So I'm seeing that anyway. But anyway, yeah, you just, but there's gonna be seasons. You know, I can look at my log from last fall when I was getting ready for the marathon were qualified in Boston, I dropped my lifting two days a week. Yep. And you know, there's a lot less so you know, I may drop it and, or two to three days and drop just due to two upper body, one lower body and, and so it just, you know, you just have to kind of focus on whatever it is that right now, in this particular time is important to you. I've actually already drawn up a 2025 Yeah, Jewel, I'm presuming I'm going to mega qualify in December. And most of the 2025 I can just do true hybrid where I'm going to do as much as I can of both but not overdo it. But just really, I'm going to allow me to do a balance, do a real balance thing for much of 2025 is my plan. Okay,

Philip Pape  43:56

man, some really cool things in there. First of all, you touched on periodization and seasons, you use the term seasons very early when I got my nutrition coaching cert, that was definitely the language used in the context of like, if you think of an athletic season, you have a preseason where your prep season where you go after it you know, offseason when you recover. And then did I miss one but you know what I mean? What in between? Oh, yeah, the offseason is actually where you develop your skill, right? Like you might go after? Yeah, but you talked about planning into 2025 Just this morning, somebody posts in our community. This is our paid program. One of our courses asked you to put together a 12 month plan there like I want you to think ahead of an entire year think about the holidays. Think about what you want to do think about how you want to move the seasons how hot and cold like all that stuff and put together Oh, yeah, it just like you're doing you're you're backing it up. You're reverse engineering from you know, events dates. Yeah, maybe you have a wedding, maybe you want to look great on the beach, it doesn't matter whatever is driving you plan it in because we're good. Humans are really good at using like special milestones and moments and holidays to drive things. And so we take advantage of that. So I'm just putting it out for the listener like that's a great tip Ben just said, like plan out the next 12 months. Do you have any advice specifically on how people can start doing that? Like, because they may, they may think it's just kind of overwhelming. What even do I do over the next 12 months? You know, well,

Ben Lewis  45:13

you know, Excel is your friend, you can

Philip Pape  45:17

get your you're going right to the tool. All right, you're like me, man.

Ben Lewis  45:20

For me, that was my friend. Okay, here's, there's, here's the weeks. And literally, I started with just here's the weeks and what, and then looking at you, you've used a great term that reverse engineering, so I'm going to reverse engineering. Okay. Yeah. All right, the pool opens and Memorial Day weekend, and I'm not saying this was necessarily me. But yeah, the full Memorial Day weekend, I want to be coming right out of a cut down. Yeah. But a lot of people are probably gonna think you know, so think about that. All right. So then I set up, okay, this is when I'm going to, I'm going to straight train. And you know, I'm going to do my, whatever, 12 weeks or 16 weeks, whatever that number might be, and you work backwards from there. And then, you know, for me as a runner, it's like, I want to do a half marathon in 2025. And there's one near me, it's actually in Mount Airy, North Carolina, Andy Griffith hometown, where the show was kind of the show was kind of based on Mount Airy, and you get to take a picture with Barney, Barney Fife. Qmobile. Yeah, so that, that's, that's always like the second week of November. So I'm kind of Alright, so we're gonna remember, half marathon training is going to take me 12 weeks, I'm going to work back from the second week of November and then think about Alright, so that's when I'll start scaling back lifting. So then whatever that 12 We I don't have that spreadsheet in front of me right now. But whatever the 12 weeks, sometimes it was sometime it says some week in September. So up to that time in September, I'm really going to go hard on my lifting, you know, perfect man. So that that kind of things, it's really those events, those things that what you where you want to be at certain times in the year,

Philip Pape  46:51

as I'm thinking of that, what how do you is it a completely perfection oriented plan? Or do you put in some wiggle room and some like buffer in there? For me,

Ben Lewis  47:01

I put I start with best case scenario, just but just understanding it, you know, I need to have grace with myself and life can happen. And you know, just be okay with that. I'll really be okay. When, when life happens, and I hate I get sick a lot less now that I'm eating healthy, whole unprocessed foods all the time, or most of the time that I get sick a lot less and I'm healthy. I'm a healthier person, but I do get sick. You know, okay, maybe gotta take a week, two weeks off, just to let your body heal. And that's okay. Yeah, for sure

Philip Pape  47:37

we see it. I mean, again, as you get older, you got the surgeries and the injuries in life and kids in COVID. And now all these other things that happened, right? This theory came up with my mind now that I wanted to pick your brain on Okay, so you okay, you're eating like 4000 calories in a deficit, right? Yeah. Like your expenditures is 4800.

Ben Lewis  47:56

Macro. fattener has my expenditure around 46 4700. Okay. All

Philip Pape  48:00

right. So you're eating a lot of food, like you're just eating a lot in terms of volume and calories and energy. Yes, you're running a lot, but you're adapted to it. You're lifting as well. We've seen this kind of unusual outlier version of body recomp. I'm just going to call it that. Because it's not like results are not typical kind of thing. Yeah. Do you think that there's an element here, kind of a formula that you're applying here that is putting you into a high energy? well fed state that is akin to not dieting, but because the energy balance is still dieting, that you're losing weight? You don't say? Yeah,

Ben Lewis  48:38

I should have said that. Okay, I did not specify that. So I am losing intentionally my I am losing way slower than I ever have. Even slower than macro factor. I think I set it for point. Oh, 5%. Body fat. So that's my intention. Point. Oh,

Philip Pape  48:58

5% a week. Okay. point or point? 5.5. Okay. Well, that's, that's reasonable. That's, you know, it's moderate. Yeah. But yeah,

Ben Lewis  49:06

most people want to get close to that one. So, yeah, most people want to but I'm doing point 5%. And, yeah, so. So part of it I'm losing you referenced is when you're still obesity. Body fat is energy. And excess body fat is energy. And so yeah, I suspect that my body has been using some of that fat for muscle building. Yeah, yeah,

Philip Pape  49:28

but not really. Yeah. So wait, let's I don't want to leave it. I'm gonna challenge you on that a little not challenge but you're at a much higher level than the average person in terms of your absolute calories. You just are being Sub Sub 200 male, right? Yeah. Typically, I see people's expenditure being on the upper end 4000 On the far upper end, like, you know, a bigger guy and everything, but usually it's around 3000 to 3500 At most, and then when they're dieting they're down to like 2500 or 2000 calories. They are getting to the point Weigh Down where their body feels, you know, even if it's moderate, you are eating a ton of calories. And so my like, my theory goes is the energy coming in even though a lot of it gets burned? It's kind of circling through. I wonder if that puts you in a better health state or metabolic state, even while you're losing such that your body doesn't feel like it's dieting as much you know what to say? Right?

Ben Lewis  50:21

This is just so much more sustainable. Yes. In terms of my hunger cues. Yeah. So even though I'm burning it all and losing fat, I do not feel hungry. Yeah. Because I mean, you know, you don't have time. You know, I eat a, I typically eat 1000 calories by the, by the time I pre workout, Intro workout and parry workout. I've eaten 1000 calories in the morning, and I'm eating 1000 basically 1000 Calorie breakfast 1000 Calorie lunch 1000 Calorie dinner and 1000 calories in the morning before breakfast is basically how it tends to play out. And yeah, I'm not hungry. I I program in snacks and fruit and stuff. And sometimes I forget to get up and then I forget to go get an orange or some blueberries or whatever I put in for a snack for the day. Yes, that absolutely happened.

Philip Pape  51:11

So now you're also running a lot. And so people are gonna think, because here's the thing, I always have to caution people, especially when they start work with me, like we're probably going to do less in the short term, because you're probably doing too much and you're stressing your body, especially women doing too much cardio, but now we're talking to a guy here you Ben that's doing a ton of cardio, like a ton of cardio. And so what makes it actually work for you. You talked about balance, but still it's a lot. It's a lot of volume. Is it sleep? Are you getting nine hours of sleep? What is it that's keeping the stress load down? Do you think

Ben Lewis  51:42

you said that earlier? Now that I think about it? I do think it's the quality, the quality and the amount of nutrition really have to be it? I'm not a great sleeper. It's funny. My wife asked me fairly recently, a week or two ago, she's like, Have you stopped drinking for good or asset? I don't know. I've literally I've never met like, I've literally never been drunk in my life or even tipsy in my life. But I would have a glass of wine here and there. I haven't had any in. I think it was around 2022 I'm not even sure. So it wasn't like a conscious, I'm not gonna drink it. This day. I just kind of stopped at some point. And I'm not saying you know, so. So the point that I don't consume alcohol, which is you know, it's a recovery in heaven because it hurts your recovery. So I really focus on recovery, and getting walks in and you know, active recovery on the days that I'm not running or not lifting, doing a little bit of active recovery, doing, you know, real life stuff on those days. You know, I'm not a great sleeper. I know it's important. I try to sometimes I just wake up. Yeah. I'm getting in bed. I am typically in bed before 8pm every night. Okay, but I don't sleep eight hours, almost never. Okay,

Philip Pape  52:54

no, it's good to understand what what is your sub count come out to be when you include all your running? What is it roughly a day?

Ben Lewis  53:02

Don't check it much anymore. It's like 20 to 20,000?

Philip Pape  53:05

Well, no, just so now I want to get to that pivotal. Like we teased early on, you know, a lot of people will hear all this the concurrent training, the hybrid training, and the fact that you went after two goals, right, that sometimes seem contradictory with performance, and health. So what's like the number one piece of advice that you would have for people who are like, I do want to prioritize both of those with my, my approach in my training? Yeah,

Ben Lewis  53:30

so performance and health is similar to the whole thing I was saying about running and lifting, you've got to periodized and decide what right now is the thing I want to focus on. I'll give you my personal example. That said earlier, I really want to focus on just nailing a marathon this fall. Okay, that is not an optimal health goal. It is a performance goal. And quite frankly, you know, I would say, as a runner, I feel like I've gotten on a bit of a bunny trail doing marathons, like, as I start, you know, I started at health, I'm working on this health, and now I'm chasing this rabbit over here of the marathon and really kind of nail that. I would probably say, even as somebody who's, you know, who's who's running nine hours a week ish, and you know, do a 1618 mile or every week, probably 90 minutes is the cap for any run that he would ever want to do. So point being I know that I am not optimized for necessarily health right now, quote, unquote, I am getting close to optimize performance. But as I said earlier, I'm going to change that. I'm going to do this and I plan to get out of Marathon. I plan to get out of the marathon business, if you will. Yeah. You know, it's a nice goal. It's a fun goal. And I'm not saying if you're a runner, you could keep running marathons. That's your thing, but I don't think it's optimal for my health pursuits. Yeah, quite frankly.

Philip Pape  54:47

Yeah. So makes it you gotta go off to one or the other. What are your thoughts on lifting because kind of the extreme version of that would be bodybuilding where again, that's not healthy. But is there this interesting space where lifting weights as a performance goal to an extent actually can overlap more with health. I wonder, right? Yeah. So, for

Ben Lewis  55:08

me lifting is at pros lifting and running really differently, like lifting. I want to progress, like, oh, I want to see is getting a little bit stronger. And my six to eight rep range like I, people ask me, you know, how much can you bench? I have no idea. I have never one rep max. I don't, I can't come up with a reason I Why would want to try to

Philip Pape  55:29

we should, we should try.

Ben Lewis  55:32

No, but you know, I've built muscle, I feel like I'm strong. You know, for a guy my size in particular, I feel like I've got a lot of strength. But I really approach that with a muscle building strength, you know, mobility, plyometrics sort of it is health. It's an aspect of health, as you're saying, I'm able to approach lifting much more with a pure health thing. I need to build and maintain muscle mass. And that is my focus. I'm not tempted to go do a bodybuilding show. I'm not tempted to take some anabolic stuff. And I'm not tempted to be enhanced. I mean, that's not even it's not on my radar. Yeah.

Philip Pape  56:14

And similarly, you alluded to the fact that keeping running under a certain level can also be aligned with health so that again, there's a spectrum and there's extremes, you can go off to the extremes, knowing that they're going to be contradictory with the health goal, but not necessarily. It's not going to just trash it in. So you know, long term, it might even support it long term when you get out of it potentially because you're periodized. And then mentally I imagine it's like you want it like you want it you want to win this thing, right? You want to crush your marathon.

Ben Lewis  56:43

I think the lesson is also kind of what what drives you what's fun, and drives you and what keeps you in the game. Really what keeps you know, what is it that keeps me going back to the gym? Every morning? What keeps me running every day, you know, I enjoy it. So awesome. You got to find modalities of movement that you you personally enjoy. I mentioned that started with biking, I realized.

Philip Pape  57:07

Yeah, like many of us don't like running.

Ben Lewis  57:10

I just like it. And so I have I mean, I have right behind me an indoor bike that I bought that I use. I do use it for recovery. Right? Sure. Warm enough recovery. Yeah, I use it once a week. But it's never grabbed me like running and lifting has Oh, I don't do it as often. Alright,

Philip Pape  57:31

we touched on so much today, man. You know, this question is coming because you listened to the show, right? But what one question Did you wish I'd asked what is your answer?

Ben Lewis  57:40

Oh, gosh, no, I'd written down something that I forgot what it was. That we never talked about the scale.

Philip Pape  57:47

Yeah, it was. It was I had a lot of notes, man. Yeah, that would have been one this. Let's jump into it. Okay, talk about your relationship with the scale. Yeah,

Ben Lewis  57:54

yeah. So, um, and I was in 2013. Man, it was, it drove everything. It was awful. Yeah, it was terrible. It was, you know, I gotta get up and hope to sit and TMI. Like, I gotta poop before I get on the scale. Because I don't want that extra few ounces or whatever, you know, oh,

Philip Pape  58:11

man. I've been I know what you mean. No, but yeah,

Ben Lewis  58:14

I mean, and, you know, it was it was ridiculous. And now it has evolved to, honestly, it's done it by weighing every day, ironically, just kind of facing that giant eye wave practically every single day, when I don't wait, because like I'm traveling or, you know, I have to whatever reason rush out the door really fast. But now, it's just another data point. And partly, you know, that's probably because I am tracking and I know my diet is dialed in. And I know it worked. Because I know this stuff works. I trust the process. I keep playing that. And I know, you know, I've had you know, there's you know, there's some variability and ability. What's the word I'm looking for? There's some, it's not 100% accurate when you track it. Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. I know, there's something but you know, I know that today I've had 44,050 calories. And I know that that's a deficit from what I burn. And if I'm up a half a pound, tomorrow, whatever. And if I'm down, if I'm down to half a pound tomorrow, whatever, that's just how it works. And I've seen I posted in your Facebook group, I mean, my skill track for the last four, whatever since January, five months. It's just been. It's going down. But it's not. It's not this. It's not. It's a lot. Oh, yeah, for those for those listeners a lot of humps. But I know I know where it's headed. And you know, even I was able to say up, I've surprised myself and when I said it, I was like oh my gosh, that's so weird that I can just say that out loud with confidence that in two months, I'm gonna be at 12 to 15% I'm just kind of know that I trust the process that much because I've started tracking it every day and just seeing kind of how it works when you're hitting it. And that also relates to not being hungry. I don't. I just I'm way more confident. I'm not going to have these crazy binges because I'm eating enough

Philip Pape  59:59

so you're seeing it released. Trouble, the scale has improved because you're tracking it every day you have the knowledge, awareness power to know, this is going to fluctuate. Yeah. Yeah. What do you say to someone who, because I've seen a spectrum with Clint working with clients, where 90% of the time that is true, there's 10% of the time where somebody does track daily, because all my clients check daily, where it's still a mental roadblock for them. And I have different techniques that I worked through with them, because there's usually something else going on, and some reframing and things. But how would you like talk to a friend who's trying to lose their weight for the first time, and they're, like, I've been weighing myself every day, but just jumped jumped three pounds today, I'm freaking out, you know, what would you say to them?

Ben Lewis  1:00:39

You know, I would leave with compassion. I mean, our culture has trained us so poorly in this area. You know, we say, it's been interesting, as I've gotten in the podcast world to hear you and others use the fame, fat loss, you know, which is more what's what risk is really what you want to do, and not just weight loss that, that we're, you know, we're gonna do, we're working to remove or reduce body fat. And so I would lead with compassion and just be like, you know, I understand why this is such a, it was a problematic area for me. You know, I'd be I can speak to you, as someone who have been there, man, or lady, or lady, I've been there. I totally get it. Here's what did work for me eventually. But I'm not gonna say I had a great relationship with the scale. I mean, I've been down again, I've been down, under, I've been at a healthy to semi healthy body weight for almost three years now. But I'm not gonna say my relationship with scale has been good for three years, I'm gonna say my relationship, the scale has been outstanding since probably February or March ish, when, when I really decided I'm gonna lose, I'm gonna lose slowly. I'm gonna cut slowly is the first time in my life. I've cut slowly every time I go up as I want to get rid of that fast. But no. So definitely, I guess not I think about it. I think I would go there. But you know, let's talk about what a slow cut looks like. And that is what has taught me to trust it is doing it's actually doing the slow cut. And I know that I want to track so your your little rapid two week fat loss protocol thing? I've heard that No, once, once I get into maintenance, I might play with that song. I do think there's a place for that slow loss that really helps you feel confident and better that relationship where it's like, you know what I'm not, I'm not trying to lose two and a half, three pounds a week. I don't want to get down to x weight by the beach, or by Memorial Day or by, you know, the class reunion or the wedding or whatever it may be. Okay,

Philip Pape  1:02:37

yeah, no, that's well said, I mean, focus on the process, don't go so fast. So you have realistic expectations, and then use the scale as a tool, you know, rather than an indictment on you know, your soul.

Ben Lewis  1:02:51

I would say practically speaking, you know, using using something like macro factor, I also just use a good old seven day average in Excel. You know, I put it in excel every day, and I just a good old is my seven day average. So that helps. That helps. It was just a data point in the seven day average, not the be all end all today. I'll probably talk to folks about that, too. There's also an app, I know you're an app guy, this is a this is a freebie happy scale. It also doesn't It doesn't it doesn't moving average, if and if you have any smart skills sync to it automatically. And it can give you a moving average, just might be an alternative for those that don't want to pay for macro. doesn't want to pay for the macro factor.

Philip Pape  1:03:29

And actually, if you want to do a Ben's do with the spreadsheet, and I don't know if Ben you want to upgrade your spreadsheet, macro factor uses a 20 day exponential moving average. So yeah, yeah. But then it requires data points. Yeah. I didn't mean to be the No at all, man, I tend to run it get into that mode sometimes. So just sharing knowledge. Awesome. This has been really cool. Where do you want people to find you and reach out to

Ben Lewis  1:03:51

you? Oh, yeah, so I am and I can use the help I should have said this earlier. I'm gonna make a quick statement here. We were talking about folks that you know, have a lot of weight to lose, I found a random person on Instagram that is just really we're talking about making those little progress gains and like, I'm watching her run, get from a 16 minute mile to a 15 minute mile and the joy that she is having just hitting that hitting that that little bit faster mile pace. So Anyway, point being those of us that are in these journeys on Instagram, and I've just started following her and just cheering her on. Those of us that are in these journeys that we don't have these large social media followings and whatnot, we can we would love your support and it's called it's Vinny Lu fitness, I'm sure you'll put the link in your show notes but it's at Vinny Lu Vinny Lu ve n e l o u underscore fitness and Instagram that's where I would love your support. Having that bit of external validation is helpful and joyful and I think it does help so definitely

Philip Pape  1:04:49

for sure if you're listening go right now follow Have you have used IG Instagram yet Benny Lupin is b e ne Liu underscore fitness and I'll include that in the show notes and give Been a follow up please do if you you know, joined the show and you want to follow him and just say hello, I'm sure he'll say hello back. And then man, it's been a pleasure. I didn't you know, I didn't know exactly what we'd get into here, but it's like, it's all the good things people need to know about how to tackle this mentally, physically and otherwise. So thank you so much for coming on.

Ben Lewis  1:05:16

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

This Over 50 Family Man Lost His Power Belly (36 Pounds) But NOT His Muscle or Strength! | Ep 187

Are you over 40, juggling a demanding career, family responsibilities, and struggling to stay fit? Meet Jerry Bonanno, a 50-something family man who shed 36 pounds of fat and 5 inches off his waist without losing his hard-earned muscle or strength.

Philip (@witsandweights) talks with Jerry about being over 40 and struggling to balance a demanding job, family commitments, and staying fit. Maybe you've been hitting the gym for years but still have difficulty nailing your nutrition, or the daily grind has taken a toll on your physical health. You're eager to reclaim your health, lose fat, and feel strong again, but the challenges seem overwhelming.

Jerry reveals how he transformed his physique and reclaimed his health despite a hectic lifestyle. Tune in to hear his inspiring journey and practical tips that YOU can use to do the same.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:16 Jerry's discipline and training routine
6:52 Managing aches and pains during training
10:34 Jerry's motivation and health goals and why he worked with Philip
14:32 Dietary experiments and sustainability
18:12 Prioritizing his physicality to maintain a fulfilling life experience
26:06 Reduce friction: Work hard and smart to achieve goals effectively
29:14 The importance of tracking calories and protein intake
34:54 Why Jerry came back for a second time
39:53 Focusing on the process over the outcome
46:05 Shifting to the carnivore diet
49:21 Understanding personal data and adjusting nutrition
51:52 Intuitive eating with tracking for a balanced approach
54:31 High-frequency, low-volume weight training program without cardio
57:17 Maintaining health and physique goals
58:56 The question Jerry wished Philip had asked
1:01:25 How to connect with Jerry
1:02:02 Outro

Episode resources:

• Jerry’s IG: @thebasementape

Related Episode:

• Ep 115: How Tony Lost 15 Lbs, 8% Body Fat, and Built Lifelong Strength with Barbell Training

Episode summary:

In today's episode, we delve into the remarkable fitness journey of Jerry Bonanno, a testament to defying age and achieving health and strength in your 50s. Jerry’s story is one of perseverance, discipline, and smart choices, offering a blueprint for anyone looking to transform their health at any age. He managed to lose 36 pounds of body fat and five inches off his waist while maintaining his muscle mass. His success was not just about weight loss but about rekindling a love for lifting and prioritizing muscle-centric health over mere numbers on a scale.

Jerry's journey began with the challenge of fitting fitness into a busy lifestyle. Despite early morning wake-ups at 4:30 am, he made strategic nutrition and consistent training a priority. His basement gym, equipped with a power rack, specialty bars, and a Titan shoulder press machine, became the epicenter of his transformation. Jerry emphasizes that the key to his success was sticking to the basics and maintaining consistency.

One of the significant hurdles Jerry faced was the pitfalls of restrictive diets. Initial attempts at nutrition and fitness were marked by struggles and temporary successes. It was seeking professional guidance that helped him navigate these challenges. Jerry's story highlights the importance of finding a balanced and sustainable approach to nutrition that fits into real-world situations, leading to better long-term health and well-being.

Physical health plays a crucial role in enhancing overall life experience. Jerry's transformation journey reflects this connection. Inspired by personal influences like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Jerry rediscovered his passion for lifting weights. He emphasizes the necessity of being "unreasonable" with oneself to make fitness a priority, even amidst long commutes and family obligations. True change, according to Jerry, requires personal responsibility and the courage to push through excuses.

Transitioning to early morning workouts, Jerry discovered increased productivity and a sense of accomplishment. His personal experience of shifting his workout schedule after his first daughter was born and building a home gym to reduce friction highlights the importance of adaptability. Working hard and smart simultaneously, Jerry drew inspiration from philosophical insights and practical advice from peers in the fitness community.

Nutrition tracking played a pivotal role in Jerry's success. Combining effort with intelligent strategies, Jerry transitioned from a casual approach to a more structured and tracked method of eating. He learned the critical impact of nutrition on strength training and overall fitness. By accurately tracking his nutrition, Jerry could manage his health and fitness goals more effectively.

Understanding and managing the relationship between nutrition and overall well-being is vital. By focusing on key performance indicators like caloric intake, protein consumption, and daily steps, Jerry could better manage his health and fitness goals. Tracking progress and understanding the role of consistent, process-oriented actions were essential components of his journey.

Practical strategies for increasing physical activity and making dietary adjustments were crucial in Jerry's transformation. From walking a dog to using a treadmill and habit stacking, Jerry explored various methods to boost daily steps. Transitioning from a carnivore diet to incorporating more carbs, Jerry addressed concerns about type 2 diabetes and processed foods. Monitoring biofeedback elements like hunger, digestion, sleep, and stress helped him understand the impact of dietary choices on overall well-being.

As Jerry transitioned from powerlifting to bodybuilding-style training, he emphasized the importance of high-frequency, low-volume workouts. Shorter, more frequent gym sessions helped maintain motivation and avoid burnout. Auto-regulated training, rather than chasing all-time personal records, allowed Jerry to adapt his training to his unique needs and goals.

Connecting with a supportive coaching relationship was a significant factor in Jerry's success. Finding a coach who understands the unique needs of hobbyists balancing fitness with other life commitments can make a significant difference. Jerry's journey underscores the importance of personalized coaching and a supportive fitness community.

Jerry Bonanno's inspiring fitness journey is a treasure trove of actionable advice and personal stories. From the importance of consistency and sticking to the basics to the benefits of early morning workouts and mastering nutrition tracking, Jerry's story offers valuable insights for anyone looking to achieve their fitness goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:01

If you're over 40, juggling a demanding job, family commitments and trying to stay fit, this episode is for you. Maybe you've been lifting for years but struggled to get your nutrition Right. Or perhaps you've lost touch with your physicality with all of life's responsibilities. You're eager to reclaim your health to lose fat feel strong again, but the challenges seem overwhelming. In today's episode, we are talking to someone just like you who managed to lose 36 pounds of body fat and five inches off his waist despite a busy lifestyle and without losing his hard earned muscle or strength.

Philip Pape  00:42

Today I have longtime client Jerry Banano on the show. Like I mentioned in the intro, Jerry used the Whitson weights approach of working smarter and more efficiently to shed 36 pounds of fat and five inches off his waist in his 50s. Without losing his muscle size or strength. We'll explore how he balanced the demanding job, family commitments and community responsibilities while making significant strides in his physical health. In this episode, we'll discuss how he did it and what you can do to replicate his results. Jerry, I'm super excited to have you on the show. Great to be here. Thanks.

Jerry Bonanno  01:14

Appreciate it.

Philip Pape  01:15

So let's set the scene here. Right you train your your handle on Instagrams at the basement ape, right basement ape. Yeah, and you're about to start your next training session, I want you to take us there into that dark, dank basement gym of yours. What is running through your mind as you prepare to lift? What emotions are bubbling up, walk us through the sights and sounds of training as Jerry, from that electric anticipation before you grab the bar to the raw intensity of each rep, paint us a picture of Jerry's world?

Jerry Bonanno  01:45

Well, I wish I could not. I wish I could fill that in. But here's Well, I train like a lot of people who are trying to juggle a lot of different things, I train pretty much first thing in the morning. So I'll take you from the point where my alarm goes off, which is usually around 4:30am. And the first thought that comes to mind is not any of that it's go back to sleep. Good one. Yeah. So typically, literally, that's the first thought that goes through my head, like everybody kind of struggled to get enough sleep. So I'm usually working on six, six and a half hours asleep, and I catch up sometimes on the weekends. But typically then just convinced myself to get out of bed, usually I'd only takes a few minutes, which is good. And then honestly, these days, I'm not really commuting every day, I'm working from home most days, which is great because I can eat before I train. So usually go down and get something to eat and pretty much the same thing every day, and combination of some carbs and about 40 grams of protein. And usually then can let that settle for about 20 minutes. So I have that luxury. And then I'll go down into the basement. And you know, right now, I mean I'm, I'm training on a six day a week kind of body parts split when Andy Baker's bodybuilding templates. So usually there's one big lift involved, there are heavier kind of barbell oriented lifts or something that I'm really pushing hard to progress on. And then after that, there'll be some more kind of like by building movements that are usually higher rep things that I can move a little bit faster on. So typically when I first start, as far as warming up, I use the movement that I'm going to do to warm up I don't do any really special warm up. Usually something hurts whether it's you know, to a mild to moderate degree, I'd say about a third of the time, it's my mid back through the time, it's my left shoulder and a third of the time, I'm pretty much paying for it. So that's the reality of it, you know, when you get up to the ripe old age of 50, I guess so. With that I'll usually like I said, I'll start with warm ups in on that they move it and then move through that that usually takes the longest and then I can really get the session going from there and usually get done in about an hour, maybe some 45 minutes to 75 minutes if I'm really kind of moving a little bit slow that day or there's a lot of stuff to move around in the basement. I can do most things down there. I mean, I have a power rack barbell couple specialty bars, machine

Philip Pape  04:10

press. You got a machine press yeah

Jerry Bonanno  04:14

that was my my one of my favorite recent pickups. Yeah, that tighten shoulder press and you know, lateral raise machine that I got pretty used but it was pretty much right out of the box and I look for stuff with a small footprint. I don't have a tremendous amount of space. So I let tower and a shoulder press machine like you mentioned and I have a bench rack it's the tighten, rip off of the west side bench rack, which works just fine for me and you know, that's probably frivolous. I could probably bench in my squat rack but I like having that set up and you know I can just jump on it when I'm done and have an adjustable bench and a couple of heavy dumbbells for rowing and stuff like that. And that's about it. I think I have a 40 to 45 degree back raise too so not a lot of crazy hold you up. Yeah,

Philip Pape  05:00

yeah. And so So it's funny because I gave you this really dramatic setup. And then the answer is, you know what, I'm a discipline guy, I have a routine, I have the same kind of temptation and friction as everyone else. First person, when you get up in the morning, I just want to hit that snooze. But it's like, you just do this and actually love that answer. Because people listening, you know, they're always looking for some big secret or some big motivation. And, and it really, it isn't that it's like the bread and butter basics of just you got to get into this routine and do it right.

Jerry Bonanno  05:28

I think it's funny, because, like, especially after I lost the weight with you lost the body fat with you really changed the way I live is always big and stronger, or whatever. But now, shutting that body fat really has kind of, I think, improve the way I look. So now especially people like well, what do you do? You know, what do you do, and it's like, I did the same thing I did 15 years ago, essentially, outside of nutrition, which is just get up. And it's like, it's always the first step. And it's always the same first step, you know, and then you just keep going from there. So, you know, there's, there's no secret, but I will say, you know, once you develop that discipline, and you start seeing results, you know, the motivation does build, you start stepping into identity a little bit instead of chasing it. So you're, you know, it gets better as you go along, especially when you taste a little bit of success. So you

Philip Pape  06:20

step into the identity, rather than chase it, that's gold man like that really is like, because we do talk about having this feature identity. And people are like, Well, yeah, that's great. But you know, I have this huge gut, or I'm not very strong or whatever. And it's like, you just have to start take those steps. And it doesn't have to be hard. You know, we're going to talk about some of the steps in here where even Jerry after all those years of, you know, lifting and knowing how to do that the nutrition, there were still some, some gaps, maybe some knowledge gaps and process gaps that had to be filled, in which no shame in that, right, we all get to learn some of that somewhere, and then apply it. You mentioned when you work out, you warm up, you know, with your lift, you have a big lift some accessories, and usually something hurts I think that's the most important thing to talk about for a second. For us, older guys, women and men. And you've said left shoulder, it's the same shoulder for me, because that's how I have my surgery. But mid back, you know, a little back fatigue, mid back fatigue shoulder, sometimes your pain free, does it stop you in any way? Or how do you work with that?

Jerry Bonanno  07:15

No, I mean, pain is kind of one of those things, that's, you know, you have to kind of, it's a little bit individual. I mean, I know I'm not injured, you know, I know myself by now, right? So you have to be careful. I mean, you shouldn't be in agonizing pain, do with anything, you know, you need to kind of stop and reevaluate if that's the case. But, you know, for me, it's like my back hurts, mostly because I've slept on my stomach, you know, since I was eight or nine years old, and I'm trying to break myself that habit, but it's pretty hard. So I don't think that's been great for my back. And then a couple years ago, I had a hernia repaired really electively, it wasn't a problem. And I came back a little too fast from that and actually tweaked my back for the first time ever and never had back issues. And so that lingers a little bit. But you know that and I think shoulders is just trying to push by bench up over 400 pounds a couple years ago and bench to leak and a lot of flat benching did kind of tight my shoulders up a little bit. So got some of that mobility back by changing my training up a little bit. And think things like that. So the I think aches and pains are not necessarily injuries, right. So I think you got to you learn how to figure yourself out as you go. But I think you should anticipate at least a little bit of this kind of hurts this thing that we do sometimes.

Philip Pape  08:34

So it's uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, you

Jerry Bonanno  08:37

shouldn't like like, you know, I guess there's a distinction, you shouldn't really be a joint really hurts or something is amiss, you should definitely honor that. But you're gonna feel it from time to time. And sometimes you just need to take it slow and train through it. And hopefully, it's nothing. And usually by the, you know, after the warm ups, the pain is pretty much gone. You know? So, yeah,

Philip Pape  08:58

yeah, I think that's important. It's something I think about a lot too. And I recently posted something about pain and bad form. And somebody chimed in and said, Well, it's not really the bad form. It's just something that you're unprepared for, you know, you're not you haven't trained for whatever it is. And that's why you don't want to just jump into things and not warm up. But also, if you know yourself, like this morning, I did shoulder press, dumbbell shoulder presses the second week in a row after several months of not doing them because of my shoulder. And it's painful when I start warming up, but it's a pain that I know will warm into it, go away, and then I'll be able to respond and guess what will happen the next day actually feel a lot better. And you kind of have to learn that about your body. Right? That it's, you balance it and don't use it as an excuse, but you also got to be smart about it. Yeah,

Jerry Bonanno  09:43

you should definitely pay attention to it. Don't Don't ignore it, you know, note that it's there. And then, you know, like I said, just take it slow warm up. You mentioned the shoulder press machine that that machine has been great for me. I think it's really made a difference in my shoulder training. But you know, every time I sit down on it The first to warm up sets, it's like, Man, my shoulders are kind of feeling it by the time I get to the third or fourth set the pains gone. And I'm pretty good to go. So sometimes, like you said, it's just warming up. It just getting through that initial kind of body's just saying, Okay, this is what you want me to do. And you're kind of limbering up and not being so tired. I think sometimes there's a reflex when you get into a position that's a little stretched, and you tighten up, and it causes a little bit of discomfort or pain. So yeah, pain is tricky. But I think there's going to be some level of discomfort if you're going to list especially over the long term. So yeah,

Philip Pape  10:34

cool, man. So what I want to do now is kind of like they do in the movies, or in a good TV show that we'll talk a little bit about the recent before, after, or the recent before we started working together. And then we're gonna do like the flashback like 10 years ago, or 20 or 30 years ago, and kind of work back because I want to tie these concepts together. So kind of the status quo here of where were you before we started working together? Like around that moment? You know, why you reached out your physical, your mental state? And you're like, Okay, I gotta do something different. Okay, yeah,

Jerry Bonanno  11:06

so we started working together, it was almost just just a little over a year ago, I think, July 1, last year, we started our first, you know, three month cut. And I think where it was then is, I was pretty big and strong, but I was too heavy. I mean, I had known that for a while I was hovering around like 250, and I'm only five, nine. So it's a lot of weight to be hauled around, I didn't have a lot of like, you know, subcutaneous kind of jiggly fat, but I had a pretty good power belly going. And I just, you know, when I hit, when I was approaching 50, I always told myself, like, I was pushing my strength was from my strength had competed for a little while, you know, and local powerlifting meets and things like that. So, but I always told myself, you're really too heavy, you know, to be heading into your 50s, there's no reason for you to be this heavy. And as that birthday approached, that was in December, I had tried a few times on my own had, you know, had some temporary success, but really never got my arms around nutrition the way I did when I started working with you. And then you know, we're both in the same kind of lifting club so so you in there knew that you lifted knew you, you know, you're not, you're not quite as old as me, but you have some gray hair. So I said, Well, this guy's you know, he seems to be have a relatively kind of demanding and normal life. And he's lifting and doing this stuff. And so I said, Well, I think he'd be a good person to work with and some other folks in the group had worked with you. So I really mentally, I was in a position where I don't like when I know I have to do something, and I can't, I can't get it done, it bothers me. So this is something that I just I knew for a while, like, you need to get your arms around this and get it under control. Because frankly, you know, my bloodwork at that time, I was kind of, you know, if there's the four or five indicators for metabolic syndrome, I had been told a couple of times, like, I wouldn't quite diagnose you with metabolic syndrome. But, and that's only because you're you have so much muscle going on. But if that starts to tank, like you're gonna be in that space real quick. So I have kids that are relatively young, we want in high school want to go into middle school. So I thought, and that's a more life to do here. And I'd like to do it in a way that doesn't have me, you know, in a really unhealthy place. So that's where it was before we started. Yeah,

Philip Pape  13:26

and there's a lot of that, like, personal values in there, which are important. We talk about people's you know, why and why they do things. And that's, that's super deep for you. So it kind of makes it I'll see easy to make that decision in a way. First of all, thanks for telling me that my gray hair actually served me well. It's kind of funny, because once it started Gray, and I'm like, actually look older I because I used to be up till the age of like 3035 Like, look like a 20 year old. So, you know, I keep the six o'clock shadow. But um, yeah, you said you had had some temporary success in the past. I do want to talk about that. But your bloodwork was maybe getting a little worse. However, you had a lot of muscle I use guys like you and you in particular as a good case study for folks as to why muscle centric health is important. And we shouldn't just focus on weight loss because the effort you put in all those years to build muscle is really helping you as a buffer as a massive buffer. I mean, huge buffer against the health issues where you could carry a lot of excess weight according to BMI standards, and still be in that normal range. So but not where you want to be ultimately. So that makes sense. Okay, you were doing carnivore before we met, right? Or it's one of the things you've done. I

Jerry Bonanno  14:36

did a stint on carnivore. That was probably the last thing I really tried before we we got together. And yeah, I just you know, I have a history of type two diabetes in my family. And so, you know, I thought, well, I'm probably not great on all these cards and the processed food that I'm eating, and so I was looking around for something that was pretty straightforward, even though it was very restricted. I mean, that's kind of the two sides of, of something like carnivore, it's, it's very restrictive, but it's not that complicated to implement, because you can only eat a couple things, you know, so that, you know, I'll give it its do it, I lost 13, or 14 pounds on it and then leveled out because I really wasn't tracking my calories or anything like that it was just, like, cut out a bunch of stuff. So but you know, it was very hard to sustain, you know, finding steak and eggs, you know, and other stuff constantly to eat while you're trying to work, or you're at a meeting or you're here or you're there, you're traveling can get challenging. And so, you know, I just stopped doing it, because I couldn't sustain it. And then you know, that a little time passed. And then after that I came to you, but you know, those I know, you know, for people that have specific, maybe conditions that works, but for me, it worked. I couldn't tell why it worked. Because there was so many variables that were adjusted at the same time, you know, but it wasn't a long term solution. And frankly, I feel just as good now eating a good balance of macros, then, as I did, then, probably better. So yeah,

Philip Pape  16:09

yeah, more carbs. And like you said, yeah, when you're traveling or just anywhere, you have to rely on someone else for food man, just trying to find protein alone. Yeah, let alone just a pure like carnivore style diet is going to be, you know, it's expensive food, it's usually has to be cooked, like, you know, so. So instead, they put out the sandwiches, and they put out the croissants and all that good stuff. Right? Right. So it was simple, but restrictive, which we hear constantly when it comes to these diets, you know, and I've been there myself with keto and Atkins back in the day and everything. But it's like, yeah, simple list of foods, just eat this. Don't eat that. And you're like, in the real world? No, it doesn't work. Right. What? So that's one of the obstacles, it wasn't sustainable. Is there anything else that comes to mind before we worked that, you know, later on you, you gain some insight into?

Jerry Bonanno  16:53

Um, I mean, me personally, it did. I think the other thing it did that, you know, that helped was I wasn't eating anything processed. Right. And so that that was another helpful, you know, attribute of that, I think, mostly, it was just that it wasn't something I was going to be able to do for the long term. And, you know, it wasn't, I mean, there's other foods you want to eat, you know, that that are just that you're eliminating? I mean, I'm not super, I always joke that I grew up with some really good cooks. And so I'm kind of over it. I'll never get food that could again, you know, as like my grandmother, or my uncle's cooked, or my mom and dad. Yeah. So, but my wife had great affection. I should take that back. She has she cooks really well. But But yeah, it's it's just that I'm not super attached to specific foods. But I mean, there's really not a lot of variety there. So it just wasn't something I was going to be able to do, you know, for the rest of my life and realization after four or five months,

Philip Pape  17:49

you know, yeah. Now, there's a concept. There's a concept that you've talked about physicality. And I want to get into that, because I want to tie that into why besides health, right, why you want to lose fat and how it connects to your training, because you're a lifter, we want people to lift, we want people to get strong, and a lot of people may not have the history you do of doing it all those years. But regardless, it's an important thing. If you permit me, I'm going to read something that you wrote to me. Sure. And I'm going to try to do it in like a dramatic documentary voice. If that works, and then we'll see if we can throw some music behind it. So just came up with this. Let me let me give it a shot. All right. Yeah. Like a lot of men of his vintage Jerry binotto started training for sports in high school. Growing up on a steady stream of Arnold action movies in the 80s. Jerry played football and wrestling training hard from age 13 to 23. But then he lost touch with his physicality, focusing on work graduate school law school, starting a family and getting his career off the ground. He found himself in his early 30s, having accomplished a lot in those areas, but in a less optimal place physically. Despite being extremely busy, he started taking steps in earnest to get back in touch with his physicality. He rekindled his love of lifting and has been training consistently and hard for the past 15 years. Jerry is a big believer in men being unreasonable about prioritizing their physicality, as they hit middle age and continuing to train hard into their 40s 50s and beyond. Sometimes you just need to be in Jerry's own words, too stupid to quit. All right, so maybe it wasn't as dramatic with the music. It might be. We'll see. I have to ask how stupid adequate Are you? And how unreasonably Do you now prioritize your physicality? What does that mean?

Jerry Bonanno  19:38

Okay, well, yeah, so, as far as the physicality thing goes, I mean, I think that I'll get a little metaphysical here. But look, no matter what your face system is, or what you believe, or don't believe, like our experience here on Earth, is we live it in our physical bodies. There's no escaping that right. So, you know, this is what you have while you're here. and all of your experiences are going to be filtered through this kind of physical, you know, show that you inhabit. So, you know, to me, if you don't pay attention to that your experience here is not going to be what it should be. And so, you know, that's kind of on the deepest level. But I mean, you know, everybody wants their clothes to fit and to look the way they want to look. And I did grow up on a steady stream of Arnold movies. And, you know, Carl Weathers and you know, Lou Ferrigno, and semester Stallone and all that stuff. So, you know, as a little kid, you're looking at that and said, Whoa, you know, that's pretty awesome. Like, I could do that. I could handle that. And what's your favorite of those movies are like Commando, but okay, you know, you know, I promise I kill you last and all that stuff. I like that whole thing. But anyways, um, so yeah, so that is kind of the physicality part. And a lot of times, you know, we're, when you're running around trying to get from point A to point B, especially over a period of years, which would happen to me from my mid 20s, to like my mid 30s, you know, you lose track of that. And I had started when I was young. And with that, it was really important, in kind of my formation, a lot of these really physical kind of experiences, like you mentioned, with sports and things, and then that all went away, and covered a lot of ground and other areas, but like you said, just had lost kind of that piece. So I think, struggled to get back into it. I mean, I went in a few different directions, and then came back to lifting for the reason that I think it attracted me first, which, which is that it was really one of those things is there where it's like, you think there's something wrong with you, or you're not where you think you should be. And you can actually fix it almost exclusively on your own, you don't have to show up at a class at a certain time, you don't have to deal with an instructor, you don't have to, you have to do any of that. If you don't want to, you could do this, it's basically up to you. And being kind of a naturally, you know, introverted, shy or type person. That was awesome. It's like, okay, so there's something not right about me, and I can actually fix it, you know, I can do that. And so that was encouraging. Some people get discouraged by that, if they're the solution, and maybe part of the problem, I find that super encouraging, it's harder to change other people than it is to change yourself. So but in order to do that, as the demands kind of pile up, you have to be what I say is like, you have to be unreasonable about it. And I can give you a kind of an example with me when you know, pre COVID I was, I had a very long commute in and out of work, pretty demanding job, like young family, all that kind of stuff. And it was a lot of commuting, I mean, no, no BS, it was close to four hours a day community. So it's like, okay, I want to build lifting back into my life. So how am I going to do that. So basically had to get up at 415 every day for about 11 years, and just went to the gym, then. And then, or all my stuff got ready and went to work. And, you know, tried to do that four days a week, or three days during the week, and then list on the weekend, a day on the weekend. And at various points in there, of course, you're gonna, you're gonna start thinking, what am I doing, I'm getting a can't get enough sleep, I'm getting up, I'm getting home, and I have to, like, pack up for the next day, and I'm trying to eat and, you know, talk to my wife and spend some time with my kids. And then I got to throw my clothes together and get in bed and get back up. So that's what I mean, with being unreasonable. You have to, there's plenty of reasons not to do it. I mean, today, even you know, you wake up and you don't want to get out of bed, you know, you're tired or, and, you know, and so you have to be reasonable with yourself and get yourself to do it. Don't give yourself you know, and out. Yeah, there's, there's, I think you just have to always, you have to always understand there's always three good reasons not to do what you should do. What you know, you should be doing. But you have to do it anyway. Yeah,

Philip Pape  23:47

you have to do it anyway. I mean, it sounds like it's so connected to your purpose and who you are. And it would be awesome. If everybody listening could could find that. And everybody can I'm not saying they can't. And it's even if somebody's listening, like but I like group classes, or I want to do whatever you just said like you're gonna give yourself reasons not to do and I've heard that too, with new clients who I'm trying to get them like training with barbells or whatnot. And like, but I really love the group group class and the question I have to ask yourself is what do you really want out of all this? And is that gonna get you there? You can definitely do things in your life that you enjoy that maybe don't serve that purpose. But you have to make the space and prioritize is what you're talking about is prioritizing, but like not even giving yourself the reasons they may exist but so what you do it I mean, that's cool, man.

Jerry Bonanno  24:29

And that's that's just to add to that that's why the early morning thing because you know, I'm just like yeah, you get stuff pops up that you didn't know was gonna be there and no matter how carefully you plan you're gonna get your time gets sucked up by other things. So it does first thing like nobody else is even awake. So nobody can get in the way you know, so but you have that's it's it's not the most reasonable thing all the time but you have to go there sometimes to get it done. So I

Philip Pape  24:58

hear you man, I used to I used to say I'm not a morning In person, and I know a lot of people listening probably nod your head like, Yeah, I'm not a morning person, I can't do that. But again, that's the, I want you to keep this be unreasonable in your head, just say, Well, what if I did do it? What if I did it for like three weeks or four weeks, you know, three or four days a week, I just did it and experiment with it and see how it makes you feel, I guarantee you're gonna get the day started. You're gonna be pumped, you're gonna have the energy, you're gonna like, I accomplished something huge already. And the most important thing for me right now for my physicality, and so the rest of the day is like, you know, easy.

Jerry Bonanno  25:28

Yep, yep. And it's, and it's gonna just be frank, it sucks. I mean, it's gonna suck your heart when I first transitioned to doing that, because I was lifting after work before my first daughter was born. It was horrible. I mean, I was like, This is the worst. Like, I can't, I can't do what I was doing after work. I can't, you know, I'm really not awake yet. All these excuses, right? And they're not. They're real. I mean, but it's like, okay, you're gonna acclimate to it. And now I can't train it at night. I'm weaker. At night, you know? So, if you'll get used to it, you know, and it's if it's that or nothing, then do it in the morning. Exactly.

Philip Pape  26:06

Do it. How did did you at some point, make a decision elsewhere to make a trade off so that it wasn't so hard? Or like you didn't have that long commute? Or did it just naturally your job changed?

Jerry Bonanno  26:17

That happened through COVID? Yeah, okay. You know, we started all teleworking and it kind of stuck. So, you know, for me, that's, that really changed my life, frankly, quite a bit, it helped me to really be able to get a little more rest, and I think help with my consistency. But I stuck to the mornings. And I kind of built out the home gym as my, my kids came into the picture. So I did go to a very, I had the luxury of training at a really good powerlifting gym that was just outside of DC where I work. And you know, some great people there, Mac Gary and Suzy Gary, who were from Maryland, awesome in the powerlifting world, and they taught me how to live. So I had to look, I got lucky, I had them there. But even when I was doing that, I would stop there on the way out of DC and then come home and I wouldn't get home until 830 or nine o'clock at night. And so once once my kids came into the picture, I figured I think my wife had been really good about it. But at that point, it's like, Okay, I gotta be around after after work. So switch to the Lord.

Philip Pape  27:17

Yeah, so you just Okay, so you switched, you are deliberate things that you did, right? Like you switched in the morning, you built your home gym, you did things to reduce friction, even when there was reasons to have a lot of friction, you kind of moved it around. And that's the important message. It's like, you can't always eliminate everything that's still right there. Yeah. I

Jerry Bonanno  27:35

mean, it's kind of like, you know, I mean, this thing, like, be unreasonable, it's good. It's a good Maxim like, but don't grind yourself into a note for no reason. I mean, be smart to like, if there's things you can do to reduce the friction, do it. And the other thing is that I just want to mention with that sounds inconsistent, but like, you have to give yourself some grace one. So, you know, if you're on a four day program, and you only hit three days, that week, or a five day and you only hit whatever, you know, don't quit, Don't drive yourself into the ground with that just keep going and move past it's gonna happen, you happen, it's

Philip Pape  28:06

gonna happen. So a couple of times already, you've mentioned, you know, working hard and smart at the same time. So shout out to our friend, Tony Perry, who's in the Andy Baker's barbell club with us. And he was on the show before. And he and I chat all the time, very philosophical guy. And he gives me some business advice as well. And I was talking about this podcast and updating the description, which I did. So for those watching, read the new description, it says something about working smarter and more efficiently. But my original draft was working smarter, not harder. And you know, that's kind of a cliche, trite thing that people say, and he's like, What are you talking about? Man? He's like, No, you still want to work hard. You just do it. You combine it with smart. And that's how you get everything. That's how you work efficiently. And so you're hitting on those themes of like, there's effort, and it's hard. And anybody listen to the show that wants it to be easy, or fast or quick in any way, not going to happen. Not going to happen. You're going to have to go after it. But you could do it in a smart way. And what I won't don't want you doing is working hard and not getting the result because that's that's the discouraging thing. When you're not an intelligent and you're working hard. And you're like, Well, I'm working hard, but it's not working. Okay, we're trying to teach you that here on this show. And Jared, Jerry has been there. Yeah. What about the food side along this whole? Like, again, now we're going back in time, you say physicality is was super important. Was nutrition or food, like on par with your training? In terms of the focus?

Jerry Bonanno  29:26

No, okay. Okay, that's the thing that I've kind of come full circle. I'm now being where I am. It wasn't and and although I probably looking back, I mean, I was lifting, I understood that I needed to eat relatively well. I needed to get enough protein, this that and the other thing, and I thought I was kind of doing that, you know before but I'll say a couple of things and kind of reflecting what I started working with you. So what I was doing is just kind of eating free grazing but trying to pick up enough protein so I thought be useful. But looking back back, I really wasn't keeping track anything. So I had no idea really how much of anything I was eating, right. And so, again, it's pretty simple stuff. But when I started working with you, I mean, I would say looking back a few things, if you're not tracking what you're eating, you have no idea how many calories you're eating, I don't care. If you think you do or not, you're eating more calories than you think you are. That's super hard to judge, even if you're kind of paying attention. And you have no idea how little protein you're eating, if you're not tracking, because it's not easy to get a gram per pound of body weight of protein, right? Or point eight, or whatever you're trying to do. And like me, personally, when we started working together, I thought I was eating a lot of protein, because, you know, I'm lifting and I'm, I'm doing all the things, but I was probably lucky if I was eating 140 grams of protein a day, and I was 250 pounds. So that's not even close, like now, you know, I'm getting a gram per pound pretty much every day, just because of the way I eat, not even really going out of my way, the way today. So those were really the two things. So I was kind of like aware of nutrition and what I should be doing. But when I compare it to what I was doing with lifting and training, like I would never go lift and not write down when I did like, yeah,

Philip Pape  31:11

yeah. Or it's like your budget, your training all these other things you try? Yeah. And why don't food? Yeah. But for

Jerry Bonanno  31:17

some reason with nutrition, I was like, Yeah, I'm kind of doing it. Yeah. My

31:22

name is Tony, I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Whitson weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition, and how to implement better ideas into my strength training, Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that. And he's continuously learning. And that's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor, he's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches, he also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him, and they'll help you out.

Philip Pape  32:05

That's a good segue into the things that you did change in your approach. And kind of strategically, tactically, I mean, that was a huge one. That's step one, you know, when I work with a client, in our physique University, it's like the onboarding, the second module is tracking. And if you're like, oh, I don't want to track I mean, track. So have you had an experience of tracking food ever in the past? Where at all? And then if you did, was it ever unpleasant? Or was this the first time you really started tracking, I

Jerry Bonanno  32:31

had tried to track a couple of times in the past. And then going way back, I think, in my mid 30s, I had some success with it. But I was just tracking what I was eating, I didn't really have a plan, or even with macros, I wasn't really paying attention on school just focused on calories, you know, and so I had done it in the past, but I think having like, Okay, I'm going to get into a calorie deficit, I'm going to keep my protein high enough to maintain or keep trying to maintain what the muscle I have during this cut. And I'm going to do it for a period of time. You know, it's not like, I'm just in the deficit forever, like, we're going to run this deficit for the way we set it up, I think, and this was more like, you know, just how I think it's like, I'm going to run this deficit for a specific period of time. And there's a rate that I should be losing at, but I'm just gonna focus on like, the leading indicators, like doing the things, and where I end up is where I end up at the end of three months. And it's gonna be dictated by how, you know, closely I can stick to the plan, and probably a million other things that happened in your body when you're trying to do this, but it was, I think those were the things that really changed with was having a plan, having an end date, and like saying, Okay, let's do this, and let's get, let's stay on track. And I think the tools that you have, and you're really good at data analysis, you know, and so, you know, I'm, I would show up for a coaching call, say, I think this is happening, and, you know, you say, Well, you have the data like I have it right here, let's look and it's like, yeah, that's happening or not quiet, or here's why it's happening or whatever. So I think all of that is really what changed. And interestingly, like that stuff, you know, I think we did I think two, you know, we did two, three month cuts together. And, you know, that's all stuff I've, I've gotten on a scale pretty much every day, we can talk about that too. I know that's another bugaboo for some people, but I'm a big believer in weighing yourself every day. And then, you know, tracking food and tracking macros. Now, if that's all you want to do, I think you can probably get most of the way where you want to be just doing that stuff. But

Philip Pape  34:38

yeah, that's a great message, right, like, so. We talked about on the show all the time. And I'm like, if you just listen to all the episodes and apply it, you'll be successful. Knowing that however, there are specifics to to you that you may not quite understand even when you have that which is probably, which is why I want to ask the next question, but they don't want to dig back into what some of the details is. Why did you come back to me a second time If it happens, it happens more than people would think, where it's like, you know, I want you to fire me when we're done. But then there's always things you can learn and help that you can get to make the process easier. So I'm just curious about that. I think

Jerry Bonanno  35:11

for me, it's it was, we had a lot of success, the first run. And there might I mean, this is not the only reason I think the service was really good. All of that stuff. I mean, it worked. We clicked, you know, it was fun working with you, you know, there was nothing forced, it was like, how do you want this to go? How much help do you need? Where do you need to help? You know, so it was very much customized to me, which was great. But also, there was a little tinge of fear or anxiety that like, I don't want to just have done that, and then try this on my own. And for No, I wanted to make sure like I had it. And, and it's really interesting, because virtually the same thing happened in the second cut, this happened. And first, we got a little over 15 pounds of scale weight off, or we turned off our retract it. And you know, overall, over both cuts, I mean, my my waist Trump five inches. So I was kid you and you kind of owe me a new wardrobe. That's good. But But know that that's why I really wanted to do a second run with you and just make sure I had everything down and could replicate those results. Yes,

Philip Pape  36:18

it's interesting, because I find that the most successful people that do this are the ones who are also willing, they're curious, first of all, like you asked a lot of great questions as we work together and took advantage of whatever we could and even got, you know, challenge me on a number of occasions to really do my research and know my stuff. But the most successful people will have that curiosity and will seek help. And we'll look for every tool available to like accelerate that process as much as possible. So that yeah, eventually, you can just do it on your own with complete confidence. Whereas the people that aren't as successful, it's like, I could do it on my own, they kind of refuse to reach out for help. And I'm not saying you have to pay for a coach or I get it. Not everyone can afford that. But like, just rely on other people for like, I found that time and again, with every aspect of life, even if you are training by yourself in your dank basement gym, you learn from a lot of greats that came before you. And I'm sure you learn from a lot of people who are your peers? So Oh, yeah. Tell us about like, as we work together, you are asking great questions and trying to learn, I feel like you're trying to get in your own education in nutrition above and beyond just tell me what steps to take. Right. Right. Yeah,

Jerry Bonanno  37:27

yes, yeah. So I mean, for me, it's just the way I'm wired. Like, I need to understand at least at a more than an inch deep level, why I'm doing what I'm doing. Because, for me, it helps with a lot of the stuff we talked about earlier, which is like, there's going to be resistance, there's going to be internal resistance from yourself, there's going to be things that push in on you from the outside, your results may vary a little bit. So if if you don't understand what's happening, you know, that tends to spite your anxiety. And for me, your fear your and you get wrapped around the axle, you know, and it's kind of one of those things where I thought, this is another reason for the second run, it's like, you know, let's get a few another inch deep on this and see and make sure you understand what's going on. And I have more interest than I have bandwidth. So I think this stuff is really interesting. But I needed to basically nail down what are the I always thought about this, and my kids are probably sick of hearing, it's like, what are the big rocks that I need to get into the container? And if I have time, and like I said bandwidth or interest, I'll worry about the little rocks in the sand getting in there. But I need to know, what are the big ones that I need to move the needle? And I wanted to make sure I had my arms around that stuff. And, you know, that's kind of my motivation for, for doing it. I mean, it's it's, you know, education has been huge in my life changed the course of my life, really, to be honest. And but you know, it's one of those things that's kind of addictive, because the more you learn, the more you find out, you don't know. And so it's kind of a cycle. Yes, you can get addicted to it. And some people don't like that, because it's it's a little bit. You know, sometimes it's painful learning stuff, because you figure out what you don't know or what you had wrong. So you have to be able to, like deal with that. But yeah, anyway, that's why I kind of came back. And that's why I tried to dig a little bit deeper on certain things, you know, to make sure I understood, yeah,

Philip Pape  39:19

for sure. And, and it's like a filter, right? Like you said, What did you just say you said I have I have a lot of interests, but not all the bandwidth. It's like, it's like, if somebody just wanted to learn everything in the world, you'll never be able to read all the books that exist ever, like there's more being produced than every day than you could possibly ever keep up with. So how do you get to that, especially if it's not your area of expertise, and I mean, that's why I hear coaches all over the place business and podcasting and training, and it's a guy I understand there's an investment of money, but there's money time trade off, and usually you get way more results from it as a result. So tell us about the you talked about leading indicators. I like that so it makes me think of KPIs of profit. This oriented like in the now things you can measure ahead of time, so that on the back end, you get the result. It's like in a company, right? You don't measure toward profit, like you don't act toward profit, you act toward all the little actions day to day customer satisfaction and delivery and things like that, that get you the profit. And the profit is just you know, gonna happen. Same thing with weight loss, fat loss, whatever, you don't lose 20 pounds, you track your macros you eat your carbs, you try. Right, so tell us some of the most important indicators other than tracking food that you've already mentioned, that you found in the process with

Jerry Bonanno  40:34

nutrition. I mean, well, first, I learned this, like super young. So I was lucky. And I learned it through sports, one of the sports teams I was involved in was super successful, I was kind of mediocre, but the program was exceptional. And the thing that stuck with me about that program was they never talked about winning, all we did was win, but they never talked about winning, they talked about performance. And I remember, you know, walking off the mat, winning, getting chewed out, walking off the mat, after having my butt kick butt fighting, and having people hugging me and, you know, telling me what a great job I did. So it was like, oh, you know, this is this is how you get good. You know, you just focus on the process and what you're supposed to be doing and how you're performing. And so just like fast forwarding into nutrition, it's like, well, you know, this is why like, working with you, and getting the plan together was so important. It's like, okay, here's the rate of loss, here's where you should end up by the mass at the end of the three months. But here are the things you need to do this week to get there. And it's like, okay, total calories, like protein intake. Really, for me, I mean, I tried to focus on the few big things, it was, you know, controlling my total caloric intake and making sure I got enough protein, at the highest level that was really were my kind of leading indicators every day, and every week. And, you know, I would get on the scale every day. And And those were now my daily skill weight was not, you know, you talk about this a lot, it's like, that's gonna fluctuate, but when you get on a scale every day, and you put it into whatever app you're using, and if the app is good, you know, it's gonna give you a weight trend. So you're gonna be able to see where you're going, you know, but getting on recording it and then hitting your targets every every day, every week, or in for food intake. And whether you need to drink more water, we did a thing where we my steps. Remember, in the beginning, I sit here all day, you know, with smoke coming out of my ears thinking really hard, but I don't move a ton other than lifting weights, right? That's why that was a big change. When we got that up to 8000 steps. And then 10,000 steps a day, my heart rate dropped from like high 70s to like high 60s, like almost overnight, you know, so it's like, I want to reduce my heart rate. What am I going to do like my focus on that? Like, no, you have to get up and walk around. There wasn't even like training. It was like, just go walk, you know, get

Philip Pape  42:52

Yeah, and actually you you don't even focus on steps. So So you're saying is one of the results is the heart rate, an intermediate result is higher step count. But even that is not the KPI. The KPI is the activity that gets you the stripes.

Jerry Bonanno  43:03

It's like, I tried to, like shrink it down to like, what do I need to do today? Because I find, like, yeah, about this week, or so to your point, it's like, you need to get up every so many get up every so many minutes and walk or go out for a walk or, you know, whatever. And those are like the most immediate things that you need to do, I think, because I think what happens if you don't do that is like, okay, so we do that math at the beginning of the cycle, and I should lose 17 pounds at the end of this three months, right? But I only lose 14. So then it's like, oh, well, I failed, I missed by three pounds. It's like you're 14 pounds lighter than you were when you started You dummy. And you're and you're less fat, and you're healthier. And that's a win a

Philip Pape  43:44

huge one. Yeah, you weren't fixated on the number, you're you're fixated on the process, and you gotta get your mind,

Jerry Bonanno  43:48

right. So it's like, that's why I think that's so I mean, everybody wants to win, whatever the win is, but you're not going to get there if you don't do the things that you need to do every day to get there. And I think you're way better off focusing on that stuff. And see where the where you end up and obsessively focusing on that outcome. Yeah,

Philip Pape  44:06

and correct me if I'm wrong, but half the time when you ask the question, like, what do I do for x? The answer is either, what do you think we should do? Like, what? What will work for you? Or why don't we look at the data and figure out what it's telling us? Because, again, I think a good coach isn't just gonna say do this. I mean, a coach can do that, right? In certain cases, it's like, no, just do this. But in a lot of cases, it's like, I gotta work with you. You know you better than me, right? I'm not a I'm not your nutritionist, you know, sitting there every day planning out all your meals. It's like, you got to live your life, man. So you tell me these five, five options for hitting this KPI and let's make it happen.

Jerry Bonanno  44:44

That's exactly right. I'm glad you brought that up. Because it's like, that's not what this service is that you provide. It's not like here's your breakfast. Here's your snack. Here's your lunch. You know, it's what kind of foods do you like to eat? You kind of get a feel for the for that part. Listen and say, Okay, this one's good. It's rich in protein, it's very protein dense for the calories, right? This one not so much. Maybe you pick that up when we come out of the cut, you know, and then, you know, you kind of let the person put their own kind of micro package together. But you're, you're kind of guiding guiding people through how to do that. And that's right. I mean, whether it's getting more steps, it's like, Well, do you have a dog? What do you have the what? How can you get more steps in you know, and it's like, oh, yeah, I have a dog, you know, I can walk the dog. Or I can do you have a treadmill? It's like, yeah, if you if you absolutely have to, at the end of the day, if you want to get another 1500 steps in or teeth out, you could walk on the treadmill, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, I have a, you know, have a TV next to the treadmill, I could listen to a podcast or do something while I'm walking on track habits. So it's like, you know, if you I think that's really that's, that's right. It's a difference between a coach and like a nutritionist or something like that. Yeah,

Philip Pape  45:55

yeah, even the approach you take isn't always set in stone, because life changes or situations change. Sometimes my answer is just try it out. Try it, try it out for two weeks. And if you don't like it, we'll try something else, like, you know, okay, so one of those things, despite all that, I will look at your data, right. And there were times where I'd look at things and see insights or opportunities. And I'm like, Hey, Jerry, you know, this, this can you can do better here, right? Like, we can move up, you can eat more carbs, whatever it is, and, and kind of identify that, but then it's still up to us together to figure out how to do that. Yeah, let's just talk about carbs. Because you went from carnivore, which is all animal products, no carbs. I mean, it's like, even lower than keto in a way, right? It's like practically no carbs at all. Because you're just not eating anything with carbs. What was that shift? Like, for the carbs? Were you like, yeah, Heck, yeah, no problem, or there's some difficulty.

Jerry Bonanno  46:42

I don't think I was like that, I think, you know, you were always my carbs are always a little bit low. You know, and at least in the beginning, I think I got better at it. And I think it was just not eat, you know, it was the carnivore experience was kind of a manifestation of this, but I think I had really internalized this, like, we're on carbs. Like, I think Mark Bell used to call it that, you know, it's kind of funny, but it's like, I think I had kind of internalized that and said, Well, I can't eat any carbs. Because like I said, doctors history of type two diabetes, and this and that the other thing, and it was like, you don't want to overheat carbs and processed foods. And really, sugar, I think is the is the big thing. But it's like, okay, you know, you can have some rice, or you can have fruit, like, I like fruit. And, you know, depending on what you're eating, you know, there could be a fair amount of carbs and those so it's like, okay, you can eat that stuff, like, you know, you're just, you're just going to eat it and try to make it conform to the goals that we've set out with your macros. So that was a big one. I think the carbs and we did find a kind of an interesting little anomaly with cuz my wife does kind of keto. And so I think we're trying to figure out like, I was hitting my calories, but the way that the, you know, the standards work, calories per gram, I guess, of carbs and fat I was, I found this like, keto bread, and it's full of fiber, and it's not that many calories. So it's like, how are you like doing this? Why are your carbs not higher? You know, what are you actually eating? And we figured out Oh, it's, it's this stuff. And there's like a ton of fiber in it. So it's like

Philip Pape  48:13

20 grams

Jerry Bonanno  48:14

and slices. Like, it tastes kind of like bread. So,

Philip Pape  48:19

I mean, it's great for a fat loss phase. It's one of those like, little hacks that's

Jerry Bonanno  48:22

good for fat loss. Yeah, I think that was one of the things and also, I think, even the movement was a challenge, you know, because if your job doesn't require you to get up, and actually mine requires me to folk to sit down and focus, it's like, you know, you're, you're kind of battling that. So if you're not really conscious about it, you can really, you can take on your movement, and doesn't help when you're in a car if you if you're not moving. So those kinds of things, I think we had a really kind of check in adjusts every once in a while. And I need to be reminded, you know, once a while,

Philip Pape  48:54

we all do, man. I mean, I'm in a fat loss phase right now. And I'm seeing it slow down. And I know exactly why it's because my steps are like 4000 lower than they normally are. You have the data. Like it's clear, it's clear as right and you know, what's going on. Now, during this these two cuts? What about your biofeedback, like things like hunger, digestion, sleep stress, like, were any of those problematic at any point or challenging in any way? Um,

Jerry Bonanno  49:18

you know, well, beginning there was, you know, I didn't I wasn't once I adjusted what I was eating, you know, and started eating less kind of processed stuff that's very calorie dense, but not very satiating, you know, and not and kind of nutrient deficient. To be honest, you know, that kind of went away there was hunger initially, but once we figured out okay, you know, you need to eat more chicken and a cut, you're not going to be eating steak. You're going to be eating more more chicken more fish. Regular was like, you know, my, my found source of protein that was really satisfying. And so the hunger was one thing, but that eased off pretty quick. And once I kind of slowed down and just ate and then stopped, you know, and kind of realize your full, like, you're not hopefully anymore, like you can move on to something else. Or, and also the other thing, I think that I realized that I had to adjust to was I wasn't really drinking enough. That's another thing I've I've struggled with fluid, you know, water. And so sometimes you're thirsty, but for some reason you think you're hungry and you're eating so the hunger was one thing digestion. The other thing that I didn't mention, before we started working together, I started to really experience for really the first time, some acute kind of digestive stuff like reflux, I got really bad heartburn for the first time in my life, like, before we started working together, kind of like mild reflux, after you eat, having to clear your throat just just kind of stuff where it's like, what is going on here, you know, let that let off, kind of right away, when we started to cut and has stayed gone, as long as I'm not drinking too much alcohol or doing getting off track too much. I can feel it when I go when I when I do go to a social event and maybe have some few extra drinks, or I'll eat out or something. And it's like, yeah, I can definitely feel it in in the digestion area. But, and I also the other thing that we did with that was got on a probiotic. And and that helped a lot too. So yeah, it was the digestive symptoms. And the hunger were kind of two things that while the digestive symptoms led off, and the hunger did ramp up a little bit. But once I adjusted and started eating better foods, better quality food, it wasn't really a huge issue for me. Yeah,

Philip Pape  51:37

yeah. And we and you know, hunger is different for everyone. And it depends on how fast you're going and how much weight you start with like being a bigger guy, I always noticed that bigger individuals will have maybe a little less hungry just because they have like the fat stores to draw from. It's kind of a weird phenomenon. But this whole idea of, there's always this debate about Intuitive Eating versus tracking. And we talk about doing both together. And the fact that you have all the data and you're tracking, it all develops that intuition. And what you're saying is now you know that if you go have some drinks, or do this, you feel it at a lot of people aren't even in tune with that they just kind of are living in a certain way. They always feel that way, potentially, and they don't notice the contrast. Right? And you mentioned like hydration. I know. And this may not be for everyone. When I'm in fat loss, if I start to feel like my stomach is empty, like, almost like not just hunger, but it's like there's a void in there. I know, it's probably because I haven't drunk enough. It's not that I haven't eaten, it's going to happen. And I go get a glass of water and like an hour later, it starts to subside. Yep. So it's just kind of being in tune with those things is super important. Yeah, probiotics. That's that's a whole thing that gut health, it's fun to get into. All right, just a couple more things before we we sign up. Were there any other I guess, aha moments that we didn't cover? From your whole journey? Whether it was mindset, sustainability, you know, specific tools or tactics? No, I

Jerry Bonanno  52:55

mean, I think what you just mentioned was one it was I had always heard this debate between intuitive eating and more tracking, I think they kind of are complimentary. Like, for me, intuitive eating didn't mean anything, what I didn't know how to eat was like, Well, I'm just gonna eat whatever, it doesn't eat me first. And try not to eat too much of it, you know, but it's like, but now I can do that. Because, again, it's getting on the scale every day. You know, that's, that's another big one and learning to eat the right way. It's like, now I know what right is for me. And what is going to keep me out of body weight that I think is better or healthier for me. And so I know what 40 grams of oatmeal looks like now, because I stare at it every morning on the scale. I know what it looks like, I know what eight ounces state looks like, I know what six ounces of chicken looks like. It's probably off but not I'm not eating 18 ounces of chicken. I'm eating maybe eight if I think it's six. So I think that that was one of the big aha was was oh, all this tracking now allows me to be a little more intuitive posed to you, you need that data and you need to learn first what's right and what it looks like. And then you can identify it out there without all the support.

Philip Pape  54:05

Yeah, it constantly comes up because the premise people have is when do I not track and it's like, Well, that may not even be a question like, you don't have to not track you could just track at different levels or pause tracking the whole spectrum nobody's telling you to do any of this stuff. But if you want it data that's how you get it is track and measure stuff. And I think it's kind of obvious, but I know I get people have emotional attachments to these things that have to be shifted up training. I know I wanted to ask you about your training. So like people want to know, did you all of a sudden go into a fat burning training program with high reps and lots of cardio?

Jerry Bonanno  54:39

No, no, I didn't do any any cardio during either of the cuts. I mean, I I tried to you know for general health like you said

Philip Pape  54:47

would say that again say that again. So people hear zero cardio zero cardio

Jerry Bonanno  54:51

other than walking other than just trying to be healthy and moving a little bit. Yeah, I didn't need it and I don't think it would help and I just did my my like from a weight training perspective, I mean, I came from more when I learned how to lift again, in my early 30s, I started in a powerlifting kind of setting. So I learned the three big lifts, learn how to progress on them was great, you know, as a base, I think I've gradually moved more now, as I've gotten older into more of a bodybuilding type, training split. You know, there's, I love all these debates about, you know, whole body and body parts splits, and people are like, at each other's throats and stuff, it's like, it's all moving away. And, you know, there's, there's big things that you need to have in place in your program for it to work. And then there's a lot of variability in there a lot of elbow room. So I didn't train, I didn't change too much I did go to what I did, though, the biggest change was I went to a higher frequency, kind of lower volume per session type of training program. So I went from like a four day, maybe upper lower split, to a six day body part split, where the sessions are much lower volume per session, still training hard, pushing really hard on work sets, like close to, you know, technical failure, the reps really need to slow down on those work sets, if you're not going to do as many of them. But I found that that was beneficial for me it I felt better, I think I was, you know, technically probably generating, you know, more muscle protein synthesis maybe more often. And it worked for me, it was motivating. I could get in and out of the gym, I didn't dread, you know, a 90 minute session in the morning. And so, but that was it, I would say that was like a tweak of the dial rather than a, you know, a major shift. But that's it really, it's

Philip Pape  56:38

important to understand. So people understand, right? There's the principles that never change. But there are some things that can benefit you in fat loss. And I know, from your program, I'm going to say two off the top that from what you just said, one is, because you have for higher frequency and shorter sessions, there's some sort of balance across the week, knowing that you have a lower energy available to you that that could work for people and feeling more recovered. Even though you're working more, you know, you go into the gym more often. But if they're shorter, another another thing is more auto regulated type program. It's not a powerlifting. Like you're always hitting one RMS or prs. You're hitting that day's PR, perhaps but not necessarily in all time, PR every time right. So what's next for you, man? What are you doing now? What's next?

Jerry Bonanno  57:19

IFBB pro card man now, I think you

Philip Pape  57:24

got to talk to Eric Helms. Oh, that's natural, though.

Jerry Bonanno  57:26

Yeah, I think I'm gonna, you know, I really am comfortable with the way I am now I'm hovering around, you know, 25 to 26 to 27. Depending on, you know, how much if I have any alcohol or eat out, yeah, wait can jump three pounds in a day easy. And you taught me you did not gain three pounds fat overnight. Don't freak out, give it a couple of days, it'll come back down. But I think I want to, I'm going to hang there until maybe later this summer. And I think I am going to do another cut in the fall, try to get down to my goals, the two teens, you know, and maybe live around 220 For the time being and maybe see if I can stay there. And for a while. And you know, just keep going. And I could see myself doing this mini cuts or cuts every so often for the next decade, keep my weight where I want it and just keep my blood work where I want it and and look the way I want. So that's really it, man. Nice man.

Philip Pape  58:20

Yeah, I'd say it's kind of like maintenance. I mean, you've gotten to the point where small tweaks will get you there. And that's, you know, we started you just wanted to shift toward that equilibrium or you want to be now maybe if you want to maximize your leverages, you get down closer to a five to 10. I don't know No, I'm joking. Because the height times three formula in our in our forum,

Jerry Bonanno  58:38

I have Cody kind of every once in a while will send me a message and say, why don't you just do a bench only competition? You know, like you're fishing, right? You know, like, well, if I if I get old enough, and I'm the only one left? Like I probably wouldn't say There you go. But no, I've toyed with that too of trying to get back into maybe compete once a while. But I'd like to do that at lower body. All

Philip Pape  58:56

right. So you know, what question is coming? Is there a question that you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?

Jerry Bonanno  59:02

Had it had it? And I think I answered it already. I think we covered a lot unwittingly in my urge to fill the time and say interesting things. But my question was going to be Why did you you know, for you to ask me why I hired you, you know, in the first place you specifically not a coach. And I think yeah,

Philip Pape  59:19

and you kind of answered that. But I for my ego if you want to add to that, not just I think

Jerry Bonanno  59:25

I can add to it a little bit. I think one of the things for people like me who would like a hobbyist man, this isn't my, my main thing or even my second or third thing is super important to me. But really, for me, it was looking for somebody that kind of understood that population. And you have a really unique skill set for working with general population. I think you could probably work with whoever you want it to. But people who are really juggling a lot of stuff who do this because they like it and they want to take it to the next level without having to consume their entire Are life presuming that, hey, I can, you know, I'm gonna, I'm going to be able to devote massive amounts of time to this. So your unique skill, I think Phillip and I mentioned this to you before is you can operate at any level of depth that a client would walk. And that's, that's really, I think, a unique skill because there's some people that are really deep, but they can't pull back. And like some weeks, it's like, Man, I just didn't know what to do. I'm really busy. Like, everybody's stressing me out, I got 10 million things, other weeks that lets off and it's like, well, why this why that why the other thing and you're not, like, frustrated by that or anything. So I think that's really I think what I wanted to make sure I covered is that if you're looking for help like that, I don't I don't know of anybody better to get it from so

Philip Pape  1:00:45

appreciate that man. No, I appreciate that. And I mean, the general thought here is you know, finding a coach that can communicate with you and work with who you are and where you are in life and yeah, it's not like any coach can work with anybody. You got to find the right for you. And you know, you've got to gotta be able to be friends with them in a sense, right? Because as we're working together, if the personalities bash too hard, that's going to be tough as well. So yeah, I consider you a friend and you've been awesome to work with so far and I know we're going to be continued to be in touch we're in the lifting club and everything and I hope everybody listening here got just tons of even just practical advice, let alone motivation and philosophical inspiration from you with with everything you've done so well done and thanks so much for for coming on. I do want to give people a chance to reach out to her if you wanted to tell tell them how Yeah, I

Jerry Bonanno  1:01:32

mean like folks that have Instagram account it's basically like a zoo cam in my basement just me going down there and training there's no talking or anything like that. So if you want to get in touch with me, I think the handles that the basement eight and credit the Tony Perry for calling me that and the list that didn't know lifting club and kind of stuff. So you can you know, reach out to me their request to follow me or whatever the thing you do on Instagram is okay, and you know, if you want to send me a message, I'm happy to respond or share whatever I can help you out. So I'm

Philip Pape  1:02:03

not far ahead of you with Instagram. Being we're not we're not that far apart in age, but like I didn't grow up with it. So I'm just still struggling through but we'll throw the handle in there at the basement ape. It's been a lot of fun. Talk with you today. God, thanks for coming on doing this. Have the courage to you know, share what you've been through and thank you. Awesome. Thank you

My 3 New Dieting Methods for Smarter, Easier Fat Loss in 2024 | Ep 186

Are you sick of counting calories but still want to shed fat? Is your metabolism stuck in slow motion? Do you want to lose fat but feel overwhelmed by complex diet plans?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) throws out the traditional calorie counting approach and dives into nonlinear dieting for fat loss. He argues that the stress of daily calorie restriction backfires, slowing your metabolism and making it challenging to stick with your diet. Nonlinear dieting offers a more flexible approach, allowing you to vary your calorie intake throughout the week or month. This can keep things interesting, prevent metabolic slowdown, and make fat loss more sustainable.

Philip also discusses the benefits of nonlinear dieting. He shares three specific strategies you can use and emphasizes that these are just starting points. The key is to find a nonlinear dieting approach that works for you. So ditch the calculator and get ready to experiment with a more enjoyable path to your fat loss goals.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:19 The problem with the traditional approach to flexible dieting
6:12 The power of nonlinear dieting
15:54 The 3 new creative dieting methods
27:02 The mindset shift with nonlinear dieting
29:19 Outro

Episode resources:

• Watch this video to download and setup MacroFactor

• Learn about Wits & Weights Physique University

Episode summary:

Embarking on a fat loss journey often feels like navigating a minefield of conflicting advice and restrictive diets. But what if there were a smarter, more flexible approach that made the process enjoyable and sustainable? This episode of Wits & Weights delves into innovative strategies for achieving fat loss through flexible dieting and calorie cycling, offering a fresh perspective on how to balance dieting with real life.

Traditional dieting methods often involve sticking to rigid daily calorie targets, which can lead to mental fatigue, metabolic adaptation, and social life challenges. By contrast, flexible dieting and calorie cycling introduce variability and personalization into the diet, making it easier to adhere to in the long run. This approach acknowledges that our bodies and minds are adaptive systems that respond better to varied stimuli than to monotonous routines.

One of the main issues with traditional flexible dieting is the constant mental strain of adhering to the same calorie targets every day. This can lead to feelings of restriction and deprivation, which are counterproductive to long-term adherence. Flexible dieting, on the other hand, allows for psychological flexibility by incorporating planned breaks and higher calorie periods. These breaks help mitigate hormonal imbalances and provide temporary metabolic recovery, making the dieting process less taxing on both the body and mind.

Calorie cycling is a creative nonlinear dieting method that keeps the diet engaging and effective. For example, the "wavelength diet" cycles through three different calorie levels over a three-week period: an aggressive deficit in week one, a moderate deficit in week two, and maintenance calories in week three. This approach helps maintain mental engagement and sustainability by varying the intensity of calorie restriction. Another method, the "3-2-2 split," involves three days of aggressive calorie deficit, two days of moderate deficit, and two days at maintenance, offering a weekly variation that aligns with different levels of physical activity and social commitments.

Personalization is key to making any diet plan effective and sustainable. By tailoring the diet to fit individual lifestyles and needs, one can make fat loss a seamless part of their routine rather than a temporary fix. This episode emphasizes the importance of aligning dieting strategies with personal schedules, preferences, and even menstrual cycles for women. For instance, a strategy that alternates between calorie deficits and maintenance periods can be particularly beneficial for women by syncing with their menstrual cycles, thus making the diet more manageable and less stressful.

Incorporating flexible dieting and calorie cycling into your routine offers several benefits, including psychological flexibility, metabolic recovery, and improved social life balance. By strategically varying calorie intake, you can work with your body's natural rhythms and lifestyle, making the dieting process more enjoyable and sustainable. This approach not only helps in achieving fat loss but also fosters a healthier relationship with food and body image.

One of the biggest reasons diets fail is the mental strain of constant restriction. Even if you're flexible with your food choices, hitting the same calorie target every day can feel oppressive. Nonlinear dieting strategies, like calorie cycling, provide planned breaks from low-calorie periods, giving you something to look forward to and making the process feel less restrictive. This psychological flexibility is crucial for long-term adherence and success.

Metabolic adaptation is another challenge that comes with traditional dieting. When you consistently eat less, your body adapts by slowing down your metabolism. While you can't completely stop metabolic adaptation, nonlinear dieting allows for temporary metabolic recovery periods, which can enhance overall performance and reduce stress. These recovery periods can lead to better outcomes by providing more energy, better sleep, and improved hormonal balance.

Balancing social life with dieting goals is a common struggle. Nonlinear dieting strategies allow for more flexibility around social events, making it easier to enjoy meals out without derailing your progress. By thinking ahead and incorporating higher calorie days into your diet, you can maintain a balance between enjoying social occasions and sticking to your fat loss goals.

Hormonal benefits are another advantage of flexible dieting and calorie cycling. Prolonged dieting can suppress hormones like thyroid function and increase stress and hunger levels. Periods of higher calorie intake can temporarily relieve some of this hormonal pressure, making the dieting process more manageable. This approach works with your body's natural processes rather than against it.

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:01

Let's say you started tracking your macros and hitting your daily calorie goals consistently, fat loss is happening, but something doesn't feel quite right. Despite the freedom to choose your foods, the relentless grind of meeting the same targets day after day is starting to wear you down. Your energy fluctuates, your mood isn't great, and your social life and eating out well, let's say they've seen better days. So what now? Do you grit your teeth and power through? Or do you throw in the towel risking all the progress you've made? What if there's another way to approach this one that could revolutionize your fat loss journey and all future dieting phases. In this episode, we're diving into a smarter, more efficient approach to dieting that breaks the monotony of daily targets, and might just make the whole process a lot more enjoyable. Get ready to rethink everything you know about flexible dieting.

Philip Pape  00:57

Welcome to Whitson weights, the show that helps you work smarter and more efficiently to build a physique you want. I'm your host, Phillippe. And today we're diving into a topic that could completely transform your approach to fat loss. Picture this, it's Friday night, you're out with friends eyeing that delicious pasta dish on the menu. You've been diligently hitting your calorie target every day this week. But you're torn? Do you stick to your usual macro budget and order something less appetizing? Or do you indulge and feel guilty about ruining your diet? We've all been there. That constant mental math the feeling of being trapped by your daily calorie goal, even when you're following a flexible dieting approach. But what if I told you there's a way to lose fat without feeling like you're constantly fighting against this fixed budget is fixed daily number, a method that allows for more flexibility, enjoyment, and even strategically planned higher calorie days. And that's exactly what we're exploring in today's episode. Now before we dive in, if you're enjoying the show, if you want more content on building muscle and losing fat efficiently, like today's dieting methods episode that you will not find anywhere else, hit that follow button right now or whatever it's called in your app, hit follow, hit subscribe, whatever it's called, so that you get notified of future episodes, and it helps people find the show and ensure that you never miss an episode. So let's just dive into today's topic. First, we're going to talk about the main and the glaring problem with traditional approaches to died. Second, we'll introduce the smarter, more creative approach that I've been teasing you about that solves this problem. And finally, I'm going to give you three specific instances specific methods that accomplish this just three, and you can come up with many others yourself to give some inspiration on how to apply this to your situation. So let's talk about the problem with traditional approaches. When most people think about flexible dieting, and by the way, if you're not familiar with that concept with that term, today's podcast is a little bit more advanced, because it assumes you know what I'm talking about. But really what it is, is setting calorie and macro targets using an app like macro factor and hitting those targets and then you can eat whatever you want to hit those targets. Okay? There's a lot of other nuance, okay, how do you hit your macros, your saturated fat, your fiber, all that good stuff, meal, timing, supplementation, all of that, of course, but the gist of it is hitting those macros. And when you think about flexible dieting, most people think about a consistent daily calorie target. You know, like, every day, I'm gonna hit 2200 calories. You know, you know the drill, if you've been there, right? You hit your macros, you stay in your deficit, if you're in a fat loss phase, you rinse and repeat day after day. And just be consistent. And you'll get there. And while that's true, you will maintain your deficit if you hit the targets, and the targets are aligned to your metabolism. The problem is that our bodies and our minds are not machines, we're not robots, as much as I've told coaching clients, Hey, you, you know you executed like a robot this week. It's not necessarily a compliment. It's just an acknowledgement that you've been altra consistent, but we can't always be that way because of life. Right? Our bodies, our minds are complex. They are adaptive systems. And I like to say body and mind because they they work together but they also independently create, you know, the challenges that we face during something like a fat loss phase. So they adapt and they respond to the change that's going on. They respond to variety. They respond to whatever is happening in your life, the stimuli and the traditional approach of just having your macros and calories and then tracking them can definitely work. It works for a lot of people, but it can lead to some issues. The first and maybe biggest one being mental fatigue, because you are you are constantly restricting yourself to an extent as much as I talk about not using restrictive dieting, I'm referring to not restricting the foods. You do have to restrict something like the calories the amount of energy coming into your body to maintain that day. deficit. Now, you may be doing other things like increasing your activity, reducing your stress that increase the amount of calories you burn, thus not having to restrict as much with the calories. But there is some level of restriction. And so even if you have this flexibility of your food choices, the calorie level, that is what can be exhausting for people, especially when it's day after day, the same thing. Then we have metabolic adaptation, which is your body just being smart and trying to do its thing and get you back to homeostasis, it starts to slow down your metabolism to match the lower calories coming in to match your reduction in weight to match your reduced you know, your hormones. Well, your hormones downregulating are the expression of that metabolic adaptation. Okay, and so there's that right, and so calories will continue to drop as you go through the fat loss phase. And then there's the whole social and life aspect of this, right? How many times have you turned down an invitation to go out to dinner, where he felt guilty about enjoying a meal, or you, you know, had, quote, unquote, had to say no to that cake, you know, at the party, because it didn't fit your calorie budget, which you might find is rigid in those situations, but like no ifs, ands, or buts about it, okay. And this is where something called nonlinear dieting comes in. And this is going to bring us to our second segment. So we talked about traditional dieting, traditional flexible dieting, I should say, we have calories and macros that are fixed every day. Now we're going to talk about the power of nonlinear strategies for addressing everything I just mentioned. So nonlinear dieting, sounds like what it is, it's not linear, you're not hitting the same number every day. All right. Instead, strategically varying your calorie intake, to work with your body's natural rhythms, and your lifestyle and your by your body. I also mean your mind, your minds natural rhythms. It's a smarter, it's a more efficient approach. That's what we're all about being creative, and finding things that work for you for fat loss. And this often leads to then better results. And, more crucially, an enjoyable, sustainable process, right. And even though fat loss is a restrictive process, by definition, you can make it more tolerable, more enjoyable, more sustainable, and quite a bit so. And so we're going to break down why nonlinear approaches can be very powerful. And there are six key benefits that I want to highlight today for you. The first one, as I've alluded to, is really the psychological flexibility. Alright, one of if not, the biggest reasons that diets fail is the mental strain of the constant restriction, especially if you're going too hard, too fast. Like that is a definite, but even if you're going at a moderate rate, it can still become mentally taxing right fatiguing, mentally fatiguing, especially have a lot of weight to lose. And even though you're flexible in the food choices, you're like, Okay, I gotta hit the same calorie every day, it can feel oppressive. And I've had clients and we have clients in our coaching program, who will say, you know, my goal this week is to hit my macros. And I'll say, Well, what do you mean by hit your macros? And they'll say, Well, I want to get it within plus or minus five. And I'll say, Well, why don't we expand that a bit, and be a little more flexible, knowing that on a given day, you Something may come up, and you can't hit it that rigidly right. And already, we're talking about more flexibility than just hitting the same number. But nonlinear dieting, dieting strategies are intentional, they build in planned breaks from something that feels too low, in terms of calories, and then it gives you something to look forward to. And it makes the process feel less restrictive a lot of is just perception. And the overall average for your fat loss phase is the same, but you make it feel less restrictive. And therefore you're, it's like you're releasing this pressure valve, right for your mind. So that's the big one is the psychological flexibility. The second benefit of nonlinear dieting, is metabolic adaptation. Right? This is where again, your body is an intelligent system. When you consistently eat less, it adapts by slowing down your metabolism. And when you use a nonlinear approach, you're not going to stop metabolic adaptation, let me be totally clear on that you can't stop it, okay. But you can go through phases of recovery from that adaptation temporarily. And then back into the adaptation, rather than just kind of hanging out in that fully adapted state all the time. So there again, more of it. It's more about perception than anything. But it definitely can have some physical and physiological benefits when you have periods of not dieting within your dieting phase. That gives us a little bit more performance. It gives you a little bit lower stress, more sleep, things like that, and that actually can accumulate into better outcomes. All right, the third benefit of of nonlinear dieting is the social life balance. Right? How many times have you struggled to fit social events into a dieting phase? It's a very big thing that comes up all the time. And one of the first resistance Chances are points of friction I get with people is like the, you know, men and women in the 40s 50s busy lives and professionals, you know, they don't want to change everything right? When they hear like, about my coaching program that like, do I have to change everything right? And they're kind of thinking do I have to do I have to live like a bodybuilder? No, absolutely not. Things like nonlinear dieting, right, which I use more often than not these days with clients, allow for more flexibility around social occasions, so that the diet fits your life, not the other way around setup, making life fit around your diet in this artificial way. You're just making your diet fit your life, you're thinking ahead and saying, This is what my life looks like, I've got periods of boring routine, and I have exciting moments where I want to go out to eat more food, right? That's life. And you can actually enjoy the dinner out with friends, and not derail your progress, which is really what we're trying to get to when we talk about sustainability. The fourth, I think it's the fourth, the fourth out of six here is the hormonal benefits. Now this is a little bit questionable. I'm gonna explain why. But when the metabolic adaptation we talked about earlier, you know, suppresses your hormones to an extent. And part of the hormonal changes are higher stress, higher hunger to reduce thyroid function, right. And all of these happen during prolonged dieting. But if you can have periods of higher calorie intake, you can just relieve some of the pressure on those hormones at least temporarily, which then creates a massive perceived benefit as well. Right. So again, we're we're working with our body's natural process, not against it. But again, you cannot permanently shift or undo metabolic adaptation, it's going to happen, you're just kind of moving around where it happens, so that it aligns better with your your rhythms. And then our next point, when it comes to nonlinear dieting, is just sustainability in general, long term, right? By having flexibility, you get better long term adherence to the diet, right. So it's not just a short term thing, it's okay, I need to I'm gonna die it for four or five or six months, because I have a decent amount of weight to lose, I have 20 3040 pounds of fat to lose. And that sounds like a grueling slog, right? Or I can go very much slower, but it's gonna take a lot longer. I don't want to do that either. But if I go too aggressively, then it's going to feel like really, really tough to stick to. So what do I do? Well, assuming you have kind of somewhere in the middle, you can make it even more easy to stick to with a nonlinear approach, you're not just going straight, as a straight line, you're mixing it up, right? You're not just white knuckling through, it's an approach that you can maintain for this long period of fat loss, but even shorter periods can benefit from it. And then the last benefit of these approaches is the personal personalization, the customization. Like to me, that's rule number one about all of this stuff, and fitness and training and nutrition is everyone is different, you know, yeah, we're all humans. But we have subtle differences, not only in our bodies and minds, but how we live our lives. And non nonlinear strategies let you tailor it to those to your preferences are there's a concept? What if you like to eat cake? Or you like donuts? You like pizza? Can we still fit those in? Yes, and it's not just fitting them in, you know, randomly, it's fitting them in in a way that doesn't feel like you're sacrificing the rest of your day, or you're like saving a bunch of a bunch of calories. So you have to have this or cheat meals, none of that, right. We're gonna, I'm gonna give you some examples, and you'll see what I mean. But being able to tailor it to those things into how your body responds, and heck, even to your menstrual cycle, if that makes sense. And we're going to give you an example that soon is what it's about. And this can make all the difference. It really can. You're not then forcing yourself in a one size fits all approach. I can't tell you how many clients had an aha moment, when after a few weeks of dieting, they're like this kind of hard. And I'm struggling a little bit to be consistent. We're like, well, we don't have to do it this way. We can have more calories here, less calories here. Oh, we can do that. Yeah, absolutely. At the end of the day, it's just math. It's just math. And now you're moving the math around. I talk about engineering and systems. And that's what I'm talking about coming up with a creative solution that works with your body. Right. So the key takeaway here, in this second segment about approaches or about nonlinear dieting is that you have options beyond the daily grind of hitting the same calories every day. You don't have to be machine you don't have to be a robot, right you can make you can come up with the smart, varied strategies and make the process more intelligent, more efficient, more sustainable. And dare I say more enjoyable? Yes, even though it is fat loss.

Philip Pape  14:32

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle, lose fat and finally look like they lift. I've noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wit's end weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique, or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show. So okay, we've talked about the problem with traditional approaches, right, hitting those same targets every day. And then we've talked about the power of nonlinear dieting. For a final segment, let's talk about the three new dieting methods that I literally just invented for today's show. But they are inspired by the different ways that I've customized plans for clients in the past and just a caveat, these are just three specific examples of an infinite amount of permutations of possibilities. So don't just run with this and say, well, Philip said, there are three methods, I'm going to use one of those. The whole point is the customization that I just talked about. That's the principle, okay. And if you just apply a little bit of creativity, if you sit for a minute, and think about your life, and your schedule, and what you like to do on the weekends, what time of day you train, and how many days you train, the days that you're hungrier than other days. Ah, well, how many of you, does that resonate with? That? You've probably heard influencers, say, like, you got a carb cycle and eat more carbs on training days? And in reality, it depends, it depends on do you need more on a training day, maybe you're the type that actually has your appetite suppressed when you train, and you're hungrier on recovery days, right. So all of those types of things, those nuances for you, if you think about them, maybe write them down right now, you can arrive at a fresh perspective that aligns with both nutrition science and your personal psychology. So I mentioned calorie cycling, which is often called carb cycling, because you eat more carbs on training days and fewer on rest days. And then protein and fats are relatively constant, right? That is a basic form of nonlinear dieting. You're probably already familiar with that. But I want to dive into three creative strategies that I came up with for this episode. And then I even gave them some nerdy, maybe marketable names. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you an informal, you know, trademark on this, I don't even know if they exist out there. I didn't Google it. So hopefully, I'm not violating anyone else's. And for all of these, just so you know, how the how the numbers work, I'm going to be using percent bodyweight per week for the calorie deficit. So I'm not using a percentage calorie deficit. So you might have heard other people talk about like, a 15% deficit a 20%. deficit, I'm using, how fast you're losing the weight. So how much of your body weight per week are you losing? That's, and the best way to do that easily on your own is with macro factor, which is definitely my favorite food logging app, because it also lets you set a fat loss goal and a rate of loss. And then you can tweak the rate of loss. While your goal is still active and implement one of the strategies I talked about today or come up with your own, you could just easily tweak it, right. And that rate of loss will change the amount of calories you're eating. Okay, I'm going to link to a free YouTube video in this show. So under show notes on our episode resources, I have a free video about how to download and set up macro factor for your initial phase for your initial like body recomp phase. So again, go into the shownotes episode resources and click the link for that. But let's start with the first strategy of the three that I'm going to give you today. All right, I'm going to call this one the wavelength diet, or an alternative name, name I just thought of is riding the wave, okay. And this involves cycling between three different calorie levels over a three week period. And I got the idea because in strength training, we often cycle and there's something called 531 or eight, five to where you cycled a number of reps every three weeks, and then you reset, so you can do the same calories. And here's what it looks like Week One. Week one, you start in an aggressive deficit. I always like aggressive first, when you're fresh, you're mentally fresh, you're physically fresh, you've got a decent amount of calories to work with. I always like starting aggressive if you're going to start aggressive and and less aggressive rather than the other way around. So week one, start in an aggressive deficit. And you might aim for up to 1% of your body weight per week, right in Maybe it's a little bit less, it depends on how many calories you have to work. This is where again, working with a coach you can customize to what makes sense for you. So it's not too extreme. So let's say 1% body weight per week, you do that for a week, then in week two, you shift it down to a moderate deficit of, let's

Philip Pape  20:15

say, a half a percent. So like he dropped by half a percent a week. So if you started at 1%, now you go to half a percent. Or if you started at point seven, five, now you get to point two, five, right? You don't want to really go below 2.25, because then you're not really losing weight, are you. So that's we to moderate deficit, week three, you bumped the calories up to maintenance. So week one aggressive, we to moderate we three maintenance, then you repeat, aggressive, moderate maintenance, three week cycle, and you just repeat it. And the beauty of this approach is that it builds in regular week long diet breaks, right? It's like, it's like riding a wave, you've got the dips, but you have your picks to look forward to. And you're constantly kind of mixing it up, which is great for mental psychology for a lot of people where you're still consistent for an entire week. But then the next week is something new. And then the next week is new after that, and now you're ready to reset. So just to put it in simple numbers, let's say you weigh 200 pounds, you start at 1% or two pounds a week. And so your deficit is 1000 calories. Now some of you might be like, well, that's a huge deficit depends on your starting calories. That's why I said you don't have to go 1%, it could be a little bit less. So you get 1% or two pounds a week for a week, then the next week, you go down to one pound a week, right? And that's like a 500 calorie deficit. And then finally, you go to maintenance calories, which is no weight loss, right? You're just eating and maintenance. And then when you do the math, what does it average out to it averages out to half a percent body weight loss per week. So you did very aggressive at one moderate had half, very well fed it at zero. And when you average it out, it's still a half percent loss per week. And so you you plan that out to say, okay, assuming an average half percent loss per week, how many weeks I need to go to get to my goal, right? Or given a duration? How much am I going to lose over that duration. So aggressive, moderate maintenance, repeat every three weeks. That's the wavelength diet. Okay. So strategy number two is what I call the three to two split. And this is a weekly approach. So within the week, you're going to break it down like this, you're going to have three days aggressive. So again, let's say 1%, two days moderate, let's say a half percent, and then two days maintenance. So three to two, aggressive, moderate maintenance. Now notice that out of the seven days, three of them are aggressive, two are moderate, and two are maintenance. So this gives you more frequent variation in your intake within a week. And this can be great for those who struggle with, you know, longer periods of restriction. And yeah, even a week for some people can get a little taxing sometimes. And so it allows for even more flexibility in scheduling your, let's say, your higher calorie days can be the weekend, the last two days, the maintenance calorie days could be Saturday, Sunday, or maybe you shifted and it's, you know, Friday, Saturday, around social events, right, or maybe that's around your big workouts where you need to be really well fed for those leg workouts, right, and then kind of in the middle of the week, you're starting to get tired of the diet. So you shift to that moderate before we get to the weekend, kind of kind of glides you up into the weekend. Right? So maybe you choose Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday for aggressive Thursday, Friday for moderate and then maintenance on the weekend. And you can just make it work however you want. Right? So if you do the math, in this example, it still averages out to about point 6% per week, because you got a little bit of that bias with the three days that are aggressive. So you got three days aggressive, two days moderate, it's not like evenly split. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I mean, that's, that gets you in the ballpark, you can shift it however you want, you can shift the numbers. So that's the second strategy, which I call the three to two split. And then the third strategy, the final strategy I want to share is the alternating fortnight right now, for those of you especially in the US who don't use that word frequently, or at all it means 14 days fortnight, right, two weeks, I see it definitely use more with people from the UK and Australia right from the Commonwealth areas. And I thought I would make this a nod to them. So the alternating fortnight not to be confused with the game fortnight operates on a two week on two week off cycle. So again, very simple. The first two weeks is your moderate to aggressive deficit. So you got some flexibility here, maybe it's point five, or maybe it's all the way to 1% It depends depends on what works for you. Okay, two weeks at a moderate to aggressive, then weeks three and four, the next two weeks are slight or even at maintenance. So slight deficit or if you're maintenance, so you've got very aggressive and very not aggressive at all. And then you repeat it every four weeks, right? So two weeks, two weeks, two weeks, two weeks. Now, this is an interesting strategy because it allows for longer periods at each calorie level creates that consistency. It can be beneficial for those who find like all the frequent changes disruptive and don't want to constantly be changing their app or their targets, right where As others really love to do that. And then interestingly, this can be aligned with women's menstrual cycle. And this is actually comes from a few of my clients who had very different hunger profiles in the two different parts of their cycle. And we did something like this. And it worked wonders, because the two weeks of the moderate to aggressive deficit can coincide with the follicular phase, when many women do find it easier. And the two weeks out on your maintenance aligns with the luteal phase when hunger and cravings usually increase, okay, but men can use this as well, again, it doesn't matter, it's just, you know, two weeks on two weeks off kind of gives you that break, the two weeks off, remember, doesn't have to be a maintenance, you can keep yourself in a diet, but just make it very slight. And it's still gonna seem like a lot more food than when you're in the more aggressive deficit. Now, the length and the symptoms and all that vary from person to person, like we were just talking about women with menstrual cycle, some women don't experience the difference, right. So again, you have to personalize this. But it's a great example of how we work with our body's natural rhythms. And we make fat loss more efficient, and less stressful. All right. So that's just three examples, I'm sure you can come up with a lot more. Because you know, the goal here isn't just to lose fat, it's to do so in a way that's sustainable a fit into your life. And as we wrap up this segment, I do want to emphasize that it's it's not about picking the best strategy. It's not about going with one of these three in particular, it's finding the one that aligns with you, your lifestyle, your preferences, your schedule, your goals, and it's fine to test and experiment, try one of these out, try one, if you want to try one of these, go for it. That's why I included them in here. Come up with your own right. The beauty of this, these approaches is by definition, their flexibility, so you can do whatever you want with them. Right? And maybe you can think of another one that would work better for you. And if so, if so, I'd love for you to send me a message on Instagram at Whitson weights, and let me know what you came up with. Or you could just say hello, just just say hello, say, Hey, I'm a listener of the show. Love the episode. Here's why. And if you have questions, send them my way, as well. So Instagram at Woodson weights. Okay, so now that you understand the power behind nonlinear dieting, I want to emphasize it's not about the strategies, it's the mindset shift that these represent. It's getting away from all or nothing thinking, which dominates so much of diet culture, it just does. It's like you got to do this and be on and go after and work hard and be disciplined and get after or else, you know, you're a loser. Right? Or maybe we do that to ourselves, let's be honest. Okay. And instead, it's flexible and sustainable. And that word, those words, like, they can't really be overused, because they mean what they mean. And that is what we want. And if your approach is not those things, if it is not flexible enough is not sustainable. Question it, question it? What can change to make that we don't just throw up your hands and say, Oh, well, it's just not going to work for me, right? Oh, well, maybe I am the unique snowflake. And I'm sorry to use that term, because it can be triggering, but still snowflakes are all unique. So there's a reason we use that. I'm the one that is not going to work for it. No, no, no, no, no,

Philip Pape  28:04

let's get creative, right? Because you're not just changing how you eat. It's not just a diet. Even though I use the word diet a million times today, you're changing how you think about food, how you think about your body, how you think about the process of transformation, which really is just personal and physical and mental growth. You're setting yourself up for long term success, not the quick fix. So next time, you're faced with a choice between this one size fits all restrictive dieting, even if it is flexible dieting with macros and calories and you're like this doesn't feel right. Maybe I should just eat intuitively before you do that, and give up. There's a smarter way, a way that works with your body, not against it. All right. And that's the power of nonlinear dieting. That's the power of channeling your effort and thinking about these things. Because yes, it can be hard. But it can be smart as well at the same time and that way you get something for your heart. That's what we want out of this game, isn't it, we want to get the result. And other people aren't thinking about this stuff. Right? I rarely hear about nonlinear dieting strategies or if I do they're like always the same ones. You've got a blank slate tabula rasa on this thing. And also, using your mental muscle will lead you to find other things in your fitness and health that you might be able to personalize. So there's that benefit. All right. If you are intrigued by these strategies, if you want to explore how they could work for your specific situation, if that's something that might interest you. In my Whitson weights physique university program, we do dive deep into customized approaches like this all the time. We tailor the nutrition plans, we tailor the strategies, we give you real time feedback, as these issues come up to your individual needs and your lifestyle. Right? We help you implement these smarter these more flexible methods for fat loss, right? Most of our clients are aiming to lose between 20 and 50 pounds of fat and we help them get there. Or maybe you're trying to build muscle many of our clients do both. All while giving you on Going support and adjustments and feedback. Yes, there's a community. Yes, there's courses, all that fun stuff. But at the end of the day, what you're looking for is how do I implement this for me. And if you want to learn more about how we could help you do that, how we can apply these concepts from today to your journey, click the link in my show notes to learn more about the physique University, or head over to Whitson weights.com/physique Because getting personalized guidance is exactly how you take your results to the next level and you stop spinning your wheels. Again, click the link in the show notes or go to Whitson weights.com/physique. Until next time, keep using those wits. Keep lifting weights and taking it one day at a time. I'll talk to you next time here on the wits and weights podcast.

The 7 Most Powerful Mindset Techniques to Lose Fat and Build Muscle with Adam Poehlmann | Ep 185

Are you feeling stuck in a fitness rut? Are you confused by conflicting fitness advice? Struggling to stay motivated when everyone on social media seems to have a perfect body?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Adam Poehlmann, host of The Poehlmann Fitness Show and a dedicated health, fitness, and nutrition coach at Poehlmann Fitness, to discuss how your inner voice can unlock physical achievements. This episode tackles the often-overlooked aspect of fitness: your mindset. Adam dives deep into the internal locus of control concept, empowering you to take ownership of your health journey. He also gets personal, sharing his fitness struggles and triumphs, from overcoming the temptation of alcohol to setting a positive example.

Philip and Adam explore the power of a growth mindset, where setbacks become growth opportunities. They also talk about navigating social media effectively, avoiding comparison traps, and harnessing its potential for inspiration and learning. Packed with actionable tips and real-life experiences, this episode equips you with the mental tools to finally conquer your fitness goals. 

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:21 What's the first mental shift Adam recommends
9:16 (1) Developing an inner locus of control
15:31 (2) Mental contrasting visualization
18:04 (3) Implementation intentions ("if-then" planning)
20:48  Choosing fitness over alcohol
23:25 (4) Community and accountability
26:32 When Adam hit a wall in his fitness journey
33:30 (5) Self-awareness and reframing negative thoughts
41:35 Mindset on nutrition and exercise progression
43:45 (6) Building resilience and self-compassion
53:52 (7) Managing information "diet" and social media influences
59:22 Navigating social media and fitness trends
1:06:11 Where to find Adam
1:06:55 Outro

Episode resources:

• Adam’s IG: @adampoehlmann 

• Podcast: spoti.fi/3W2kYBO 

• Threads: @adampoehlmann 

• FB Group: facebook.com/groups/thebodytransformationtribe 

Episode summary:

Achieving Fitness Mastery: Harnessing Mindset and Mental Power

We are joined by Adam Poehlmann from the Poehlmann Fitness Show to explore the profound impact of mindset on fitness. Adam, a dedicated health, fitness, and nutrition coach, delves into the intricacies of how our mental attitudes shape our physical outcomes. By embracing a growth mindset and maintaining an internal locus of control, we can overcome the mental barriers that often hinder our fitness journeys. This episode is packed with practical strategies and insights to help you transform your mental roadblocks into productive behaviors for true transformation.

The Role of Mindset in Fitness

The episode begins with a focus on the critical role of mindset in achieving physical self-mastery. Adam emphasizes the importance of accepting personal responsibility for one's health and actions amidst the contradictory noise in the fitness industry. He shares strategies for transforming mental roadblocks into productive behaviors, emphasizing that true transformation begins with mastering the mind. By embracing a growth mindset and maintaining an internal locus of control, individuals can overcome mental barriers and achieve their fitness goals.

Practical Tips for Strengthening Self-Mastery

Adam discusses the concepts of radical acceptance, personal responsibility, and self-efficacy, as popularized by Carol Dweck's influential book "Mindset." He emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and suggests seeking feedback from trusted individuals, such as a spouse or close friends, to identify areas where we might harbor a fixed mindset. Adam also touches on the impact of social media and credential fallacies on our self-perception, encouraging listeners to embrace vulnerability and continuously seek personal growth by being obsessed with learning and improvement.

Anticipating and Overcoming Roadblocks

The episode explores the concept of mental contrasting and its importance in achieving fitness goals. Adam explains how anticipating roadblocks and creating specific implementation intentions can help individuals navigate obstacles. By deciding in advance how to handle challenges, such as not wanting to go to the gym or dealing with tempting foods at a restaurant, individuals can better navigate obstacles and set themselves up for success.

Navigating Fitness Journey Challenges

Adam shares his personal journey and evolving motivations behind maintaining a healthy lifestyle, from abstaining from alcohol to setting positive examples in personal development. He discusses the importance of breaking from societal norms, such as avoiding alcohol, and how these decisions can inspire others and lead to broader lifestyle changes. Additionally, Adam emphasizes the importance of recording and tracking workout routines, harnessing mental power to stay motivated, and using social media intentionally for personal growth.

Harnessing Mental Power for Motivation

The episode delves into the mental strategies and tools used to stay motivated and consistent with fitness routines, even when enthusiasm wanes. Adam explores techniques like mental contrasting, visualizing workouts, and planning exercises to maintain motivation and avoid feelings of disappointment. He also touches on the challenges and personal growth experienced in maintaining a podcast, the importance of pouring energy into what brings joy, and overcoming self-doubt and limiting beliefs.

Overcoming Limiting Beliefs in Nutrition and Exercise

Adam discusses the psychological and practical strategies for overcoming limiting beliefs, particularly in the context of nutrition and exercise. He explains how shifting from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset can significantly impact our relationship with food. By focusing on adding nutrient-dense, low-calorie foods rather than eliminating "bad" foods, individuals can naturally improve their diet without feeling deprived. The importance of understanding the impact of food volume and fiber intake on satiety and overall health is emphasized, with references to modern hunter-gatherer tribes.

Understanding and Embracing Training to Failure

The episode explores the concept of strength-based training, emphasizing the benefits of working in lower rep ranges to build true strength and understand muscular failure. Adam discusses how reducing reps can enhance central nervous system performance and the importance of distinguishing between metabolic fatigue and actual muscular failure. Techniques like filming oneself to objectively assess form and pushing to true failure, even beyond perceived limits, are highlighted as valuable tools.

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Transcript

Adam Poehlmann  00:00

Just trying and putting yourself out there exposing yourself getting the practice and getting the reps and that will also make you more confident with your ability to challenge yourself and push yourself and so though it won't become physically easier, it will become mentally easier and there won't be an obstacle or a hurdle to overcome next time you need to push yourself.

Philip Pape  00:18

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The wit's end weights Podcast. Today I'm excited to welcome Adam Pullman host of the Pullman fitness show, and a dedicated health fitness and nutrition coach at Pullman fitness. Adams approach is all about what we like here and that is personalized, sustainable Fitness Plans that address the body, mind and spirit. His journey is rooted in his belief that health goes beyond just losing body fat and building muscle. He helps gym goers transform their bodies through practical evidence based coaching without strict dieting, and I invited Adam on the show today to discuss the importance of mindset and maintaining an inner locus of control. Despite the loud, obnoxious and contradictory noise of the fitness industry. We're going to explore having a growth mindset strategies for overcoming mental barriers, and how to manage your mental and informational diet for a practical, productive approach to life. If you're struggling with motivation, if you're hitting mental roadblocks if your head is keeping your body from doing and getting what it wants and needs, Adams gonna help you out today. Adam has been training and coaching for 10 years. He currently serves all of his clients online. And when he's not training or coaching, Adam enjoys pursuing his faith hunting and spending time checking out any new coffee shop he can Adam, his wife and pup reside in Fort Worth, Texas. Adam, welcome to the show.

Adam Poehlmann  01:58

Thanks for having me. Thanks for let me really appreciate it. That was a solid intro. not your first rodeo. I

Philip Pape  02:03

don't know if you saw the video. I said. There you go. Yeah, no, I was I was joking. Because on our ag chat, just for the listener, I have this silly video I compiled, like a year ago with a bunch of people praising the intros, you know, and I'm like, I send this to people, you know, it's one of those kind of like vanity things, but sure, it's pretty funny. So alright, so you know, you talk a lot about the mindset and about how the key to transforming your body lies in mastering your mind. And it's something we give a lot of, I'll say lip service to, and there's like this woo factor to it for a lot of people. But in reality, a lot of people are absorbing tons of information. And a lot of it maybe is good information, and they're just not applying it, they're not implementing it for some reason. So for people who are stuck, they're frustrated, what's the very first mental shift that you'd encourage them to make? Right now listening to the show?

Adam Poehlmann  02:52

Yeah, that's a good question. I think in general, one of the first mental shifts I would encourage people to make is accepting that their health is solely their responsibility. And they are the only ones that are in control of their actions and behaviors. Yes, we can't control outcomes in life. But we can control you know, how we respond, how we behave, what we act on, so on and so forth. So I would say, first and foremost, accept responsibility. And as you alluded to earlier, maintain an internal locus of control, essentially, the idea that I'm in control of what I do or don't do, I happen to my environment, or I respond to my environment versus life happening to me. So that's essentially the first thing that I would say, once you accept that, then it is far easier to move into perhaps the practical, and the tactical of what it looks like to actually apply that belief. But if you go straight into it, without the belief, or the mindset, or the acceptance of that responsibility, it's far easier to go astray, not do what you want to do not do what you say you want to do, so on and so forth. So the radical acceptance, in my opinion, is the first step. Okay.

Philip Pape  04:00

Love that. So radical acceptance, personal responsibility, self efficacy, even which I get from that. So how does somebody become aware of that in the first place, in concrete way, and I can think of like statements that we make to ourselves, but just a really simple thing, where somebody's like, oh, that's maybe the reason why I'm not going to the gym, or, you know, is it a statement that they're making? Is it something people can apply right now and say, I'm doing that?

Adam Poehlmann  04:22

Yeah, absolutely. So what I think of is, and by no means in my mindset expert, or have a wealth of knowledge on this, but it's just something I've becoming more obsessed with lately. And I think of the book Mindset by Carol Dweck, and she really kind of popularized the fixed mindset versus growth mindset piece. And in that book, she goes through some different things that you can use to identify but essentially, we're not always fixed mindset. We're not always growth mindset. There are certain areas of our lives where we might have a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. So obviously, recognizing what you say or think about who you What you can do is one of the best things. However, sometimes that self awareness isn't there, or it's just become such a habit that we don't quite recognize it right. And so one of the things that I've found to be the most beneficial for me is going to my wife and asking her like, hey, where do you notice me having maybe a fixed mindset or having a negative attitude or some cynicism towards something? And she will say, you know, she'll bring certain things up, or I noticed this, or I noticed that and most of the time, I'm like, yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't disagree at all. I recognize that. And then sometimes she'll bring one up, and it causes me to pause and think, oh, shoot, you're right. I hadn't realized that, to this point. I was telling myself that I couldn't do something or that something was too hard, or whatever. And so having that perspective, from somebody else, who's not always, in your own mind, is extremely helpful in first understanding where you might have that fixed mindset, and how you can improve that.

Philip Pape  05:55

That must be really good for your relationship as well, because that's like that's being vulnerable right there. It's something that as soon as you said it, I realized, oh, even I can do that more often with my wife, I probably ask friends and clients everything more, to give me feedback than my own loved ones who really know me. 100%. And

Adam Poehlmann  06:11

the thing is to it's like, it really depends on who you go to, and what the relationship is like that you have, like, I have friends in my life where I won't go to them for those things, because it's that type of friendship where we're vulnerable in some sense, but I know that they're not going to just have a come to Jesus moment with me. They're more so looking out for just my feelings, which has its place. But then there are other friends and my wife as well. People in my life where it's like, I know that they're going to tell me the truth and love, even if it's something that doesn't sound good, or I don't want to hear so yeah. In those scenarios, it's very beneficial to go to those people, you're like, you know, what, they might not say the nicest thing or say it in the way that I want to hear it, but they are going to tell me the truth. And the truth is what I need. Yeah.

Philip Pape  06:51

And that's the art of asking for feedback. I mean, you know, if you don't ask for it, and you just hope to get it even when someone does give you feedback and might not be what type of feedback you're looking for, like one or two. Yep. Just something you said. You said earlier, kind of jokingly, I'm not an expert. I'm obsessed. I don't know if you just threw that out there if you've said that before. But that's really a profound statement. I want to glom on to that a little bit. Because I feel like people who are obsessed with things in this positive way, they are the experts. Like, I feel like there are too many proclaimed experts and people who are well book read or something like, even me on this podcast, I had imposter syndrome for the longest time, but it's like, I'm obsessed with it. I love it. I want to learn as much as possible. Somebody asked me a question. I don't know the answer, I'm gonna go figure it out. And that does make you an expert. I just want to say that just in case you had any doubts about that you are an expert, but it's because you're obsessed? No, see, that's

Adam Poehlmann  07:40

actually that's actually a perfect example of what we were just talking about. That's a great reminder. Because as you were just reflecting on that, I was thinking to myself, Why did I feel the need to say that, and I think if I'm being 100% honest with you, there are in the realm of being vulnerable. I think there are some potential insecurities or things on my mind about a lack of formal education, especially nowadays, you know, we like to praise people who have master's degrees and PhDs, as if they are the people who know everything, all the time, especially, I mean, social media reeks of them. And buttons. Yes, and we have a lot of, you know, credential fallacy where essentially, if they have credentials, it means they know everything. And they always know what's best, which absolutely, they have knowledge and expertise that sometimes goes beyond what I know. But that doesn't mean they know it all anyway. So I feel a lot of that pressure from social media. And maybe right there as an example of an area of my life where I have maybe a little bit more of a fixed mindset. Don't consider myself an expert on something, but rather, a lay person who is just obsessed. So that was a quality example of what we were just talking about. Yeah, it was

Philip Pape  08:44

totally planned out. This is 100% scripted to get to that moment. Exactly. No, it's pretty cool. Like, I love doing podcasts just in talking to people like this. Because yeah, we do have those different perspectives. And we're opening up and anybody again, and people are listening to this, like that is the point of this conversation today is finding out how you can really dig deeper into that. And hopefully, we've inspired you that, like us expert coaches here, you know, we have things that we need to unravel about ourselves and a third party that may see you better than yourself in one little area or another even a stranger, right? Yes, yes, absolutely. All right. So go into the inner locus of control, then we talked about responsibility and self efficacy, we want to kind of shift that eventually into practicality, right? practical actions. And I guess it's an that's a matter of how do we strengthen that locus of control, right? Because number one is acknowledging and having awareness, but then number two is okay, how do we really make the most of that? What do we want to jump from there, Adam?

Adam Poehlmann  09:38

Yeah, I mean, we can go anywhere, but just straight diving into practical tips. One thing I will say before, I think of a few that have really helped me is I think this is a part of, I don't want to say self mastery, because we're never going to master ourselves. We can't be perfect, but I think this is an element of self growth and self improvement with the internal locus of control, it's really, it's ultimately figuring out again, where those areas you do have that and what areas you don't. So in terms of practical tips, one thing that really, really helps me is understanding that I have done something just as difficult if not more difficult before. So that's a great way to give yourself that self belief and confidence that you can go ahead and do something. Or at the very worst, you can give a crazy amount of effort. Perfect example, is, I did my first Murph on Memorial Day, there are so many years where one of my friends is just texting, you know, all the guys in the group chat. Who's doing their Murph who's doing their Murph. And I hate to say it, but I was that guy. It's like, it doesn't align with the program. I'm running right now. So I didn't interfere with my recovery. Oh, gosh, yeah, seriously. And this year, I just had like an instant conviction where it's like, I am avoiding this, because it brings me outside of my comfort zone. Even though I would say when I train, I train very hard, and I'm uncomfortable, I have a level of discomfort. This is different. It's something I'm not used to. I haven't built that confidence there. And so anyway, I decided to do this Murph, and I'm going at it and I'm laughing at myself, because my gym only has an eight pound vest. I think you're supposed to do it with maybe like a 10 to 25 pound vest. It's my understanding. I didn't look into it until before this year, or before this year. And so I'm dying. I've got this eight pound vest on and I am dying. And I'm like, Okay, do I laugh at myself right now? Or do I like motivate myself? What do I do here? Because I'm three quarters of the way through, and I'm dwindling quick. So I catch myself thinking in that moment, I went back to my college baseball days where we had the most disgusting amount of conditioning I've ever seen any sports team have in my entire life, and but it was just for the pitchers. In that moment, I really wished I was a different position. And we were doing the craziest things. And I thought, You know what? Yes, it's been a few years. Yes, it's been some time since I push myself in that way. But I have the mental capability to get myself into that mode and keep going, doesn't mean it's gonna be easy. That doesn't mean it's going to go faster. But I have the confidence that I don't need to quit, and that I can finish this, because I've done something like that before. So that's one thing that I find very helpful when it comes to maintaining an internal locus of control. And then I would also say another practical one that comes to mind is visualization. Going back to college when I was playing baseball, there are a lot of stories coming up here. But I don't know if you've ever heard of it, or listeners have ever heard of it. But it's this psychological phenomenon, called the yips basically. And we use it a lot in golf. You see it a lot in catchers in baseball. Sometimes you see it in basketball with free throws. But it's basically any you'll see it a lot in sports, or endeavors or aspects of sports

Philip Pape  12:48

was that mentioned in one of the gymnast, the US gymnasts? What's her name? Was that the same phenomenon? She had? Was that something else? Yes.

Adam Poehlmann  12:53

I think in the gymnastics world, they call it the spinneys or something like

Philip Pape  12:57

that. It was a different term. But yeah, I guess, yeah, something that you have

Adam Poehlmann  13:01

mastered so well. But for some reason or another, you start to doubt yourself, and you start to psych yourself out. And something that is seemingly, so easy becomes so difficult. So for a catcher throwing the ball back to a pitcher, he'll throw it 20 feet over his head, or 10 feet left or straight into the ground, because he's so you know, in his head. And for me, that happened when I was in college, playing catch from anywhere from 10 to 90 feet was extremely challenging, not physically, but mentally. But once I got to a certain distance, when we were warming up and playing catch, it wasn't a problem. Because, you know, once we're at 120 feet, plus, I had to just rip it, you know, and when you're just letting it rip, you don't have to think about it. So long story short, I ended up working with the sports psychologist, and we go through a lot of visualization techniques. And that was a season in my life where I realized how profound visualization was. And I was able to apply that into my workouts later on when baseball was over. And I got into fitness. And I realized the power that it had an improvement in my performance. Even just thinking about the workout that I had. Going into the gym, I kind of walked myself mentally through like, Alright, what's that first exercise going to feel like? How am I going to think about performing the movement? How am I going to think about, you know, constructing my muscles? Or what am I thinking about during my rest periods, just having a quick visual walkthrough drastically improved, not just the quality of the workout in my performance, but also my enjoyment with it as well. And I guess that kind of brings us into another practical tip before I stop rambling here is having I think having a plan helps so much, especially working out because without a plan, it's really hard to visualize what you're going to do and how you're going to do it and how you're going to feel and and what's going to happen if roadblocks and obstacles come. But if you have a plan, you can walk yourself through that process as opposed to simply winging it. So those are a few practical tips that I would say can be very profound. And

Philip Pape  14:50

I think they're all interconnected in a profound way, in fact, so I'm a huge fan of science fiction. I'm reading a story now where they, they talked about the evolution of humans and one of the things that Eat is distinct and also allowed us to have a big brain was our ability to match the future, what you're talking about is like this continuum of, here's what we've done in the past, we've overcome it. Here's what I'm thinking about my performance coming up, and I have a plan to execute. It's all related to that idea of like, let's put ourselves in that identity of, and that time continuum, right, that just gets better and better over time. And I know you said like, we'll never get there with mastery. And I know what you mean is like, we strive for those things. We'll never get there. And that's maybe empowering because the rest of our lives, we can get better and better and better until the day we croak. You had a recent Instagram post, actually, to segue from visualization. You talked about mental contrasting as a technique. And I don't know if you want to share a little bit about that, where it's not just visualization, I think, but there's another piece of that that might even enhance the visualization you want to chat about. I'll have to try to remember exactly what the I have it all written out on my notes if you need if you need a reminder. Give me a little reminder. Give me a little insight. Okay. Yeah, you said visualization is powerful. But what it often lacks is challenges to overcome roadblocks. Yes, there you go. Yeah, no, thank you. Good, cool.

Adam Poehlmann  16:00

So what we often tend to do is, we idealize things, right, we idealize our lives, we put our dreams and aspirations and plans up on this pedestal, especially when it comes to fat loss. You know, whenever we're pursuing any fitness goal, not even fat loss, but losing body fat, building muscle building strength, changing your nutrition, we tend to project this unrealistic expectation of what the process will be like. So we only visualize ourselves going through this seamless, easy, perfect process, all the while knowing full well, that that's not how life works. So one thing that can help is as we're going through this visualization, is thinking through, okay, how am I going to respond, act and behave? If a roadblock comes, if a speed bump comes if a major obstacle or life event comes, then what will I do? And I think from there, that really provides a great segue into implementation intentions. And this is I would say, this is the in between of the you know, if you were to have the mindset or mental visualization piece on one end of the spectrum, and then you have the actual action. On the other end, I would say the implementation intention is kind of in the middle. So a very simple, you know, example that we could use there is, it's basically if then, so if something happens, then I will blank. But specifically with the mental contrasting, what we could say is, if I'm on the way home from work, and I don't want to go to the gym, then I will blank, then I will call my friends, so they can hold me accountable, then I will drive to the parking lot in front of the gym and sit there, then I will at the very least walk into the gym doors that I will at the very least, do my first exercise. And if I want to leave that for that, then I leave something like that. That way we have a plan beforehand, for when those obstacles and those challenges come up, the worst things that we can do is just dream about it and then not do anything, and not have a backup plan. Because we don't do well with a lot of decision making, we can develop a lot of decision fatigue. So one of the best things that we can do in our health and fitness is eliminate the need for decisions. You even seen little quirky traits like this in entrepreneurs, CEOs, you know, some of them just wear the same clothes. So it's like, hey, that's one less decision I have to make. And you might not want to be that drastic, but the principle still applies. So you know, if I don't have to make a decision and you know, work on my brain of like, am I going to go to the gym? Am I not? Am I going to do this? Am I not? What am I going to have for lunch, nothing is made, you are going to set yourself up for success. Because you don't have to think about it. You just have a plan, and even a plan to overcome those mental roadblocks. So that's kind of speaking into the mental contrasting little bit, you're just taking the visualization and the dreaming and applying a plan for when things just don't go your way. Yeah,

Philip Pape  18:49

and you're imagining the roadblocks rather than, like it's taking it one step further than just saying, Well, I know I'm going to a restaurant on Saturday. Therefore that's going to be a roadblock. It's more of like creating out of thin air, the roadblocks that all can occur and then coming up with forks from those knowing they're going to happen like That's life. Life is full of those. Yeah,

Adam Poehlmann  19:11

I go to the restaurant. And it's not just that I'm going to the restaurant, but it's I'm going to the Mexican restaurant and they have the saltiest chips and of the best things in the world. And I tend to have two baskets just on my own. They're so good. They're so good, man. They're so good. And my friend Joey is always he's gonna be there. And he's always the one that's pressuring me to have a beer when I just don't want to have one. And then they have today's leches cake, which was one of my favorites. So you kind of have to walk yourself through that beforehand. And someone even listening right now might be thinking, Man, that sounds like a lot of thought. It's like, sure, as I'm, you know, rambling through it in the moment, it does sound like a lot, but imagine how hard it is to make those decisions. When you're in the moment and you have the stimulation of the conversation. It's last minute so you feel extra pressure. You don't have a plan. It'll be 10 times harder than then it will here for 10 to 30 seconds figuring out what you want to do before that event comes? Yeah,

Philip Pape  20:02

you know, something came came to mind when you said that friend of mine, he has a podcast, he just renamed it. What is the mental muscle up podcast? And he he quoted someone else. And I don't remember who he quoted that where he said, you know, the cost of thinking about something and doing something are usually the same. And it was being used in the positive sense of like, stop thinking and go do but you could flip it around here with what you're saying in that the cost of doing something in the moment, you could just displace that with the cost of thinking about it ahead of time. Meaning it's not like you said, It's no worse for you and it's actually gonna be a lot better because it takes out that fatigue at the worst time. Especially if you got a couple dosa keys and you write 100.

Adam Poehlmann  20:42

In the restaurant, yeah. Once you're a little bit of your, your inhibition is there, you're you're screwed.

Philip Pape  20:48

Yeah, it's funny. You mentioned that because too, because alcohol has been coming up a lot lately. I don't know. You know how certain things when you just notice them, you just all of a sudden noticed that a lot in the fitness space in the industry, on threads everywhere. I'm seeing alcohol all the time. Are you seeing that right now like that? For some reason? Yeah, I

Adam Poehlmann  21:02

think I'm seeing it in fitness. And outside of it. I feel like there is a you know, I don't keep up with like, market trends or anything like that. It's just more so I've noticed dry bars everywhere. Yeah. And movement. Yeah, yeah, I've noticed so many people, maybe not abstaining, but just really understanding that Hmm, this habit of mine has way more cons that drastically affect my life than it does pros. And I'm not too surprised to be honest with you, Phillip, because this is something that I've seen in coaching for 10 years, you know, I will always have a conversation with my clients about like, hey, what kind of food choices are we making? For sure? And do they align with our goals? And if they don't, are we you know, is it sensible? Are we going to enjoy it? Is it worth it? Whatever, yadda yadda. But not once in 10 years have I had a conversation that includes explicitly eliminating or forbidding something, even alcohol. And what I found is that more and more people as they pursue their health, just realize that they don't want it anymore, or at least don't want it that frequently or don't want the second one or want to save it for moments where it's actually worth it, instead of just making it a regular thing, you know, they don't feel the quote unquote, need to wind down with those two extra hefty glasses of wine every single night. Whatever it is, you know, and so I'm not surprised in the slightest, you know, it's, it reminds me of you mentioned the stoicism earlier. And I'm a Christian. So it reminds me of what we kind of see in the Christian faith in the scriptures that, you know, a lot of people say, Okay, once you accept Jesus, how does that work? Like you just accept Jesus, and then you're good to go. And like you can just keep being in a hole and you're set. Like, it's like, no, what happens is like, once you accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit, like starts doing a work inside of you. And you no longer want to do the things that you used to do treat people the way that you used to treat them. And a very similar thing happens with fitness, I would argue, you know, it's not so much about learning to hate something else. But the more you love working out, the more you fall in love with how you feel, the more you enjoy the benefits it gives you when you play with your kids and how you feel in the morning, when you wake up after you had a great meal the night before the last you want to have that extra drink or go to happy hour that third time that week. And I feel like for the people who are getting into fitness in this day and age, that's one of the things that they're noticing the most.

Philip Pape  23:15

Yeah, and it's in its own space like alcohol. You can't just lump it in with all food, right? Because it's not this source of nourishment or fuel or in any sense, right? Like it just has negatives. No. So to try to rationalize it by lumping it in there. It's more like a behavior. It's more like a separate little thing that you're doing it either almost like taking a behavior you have in your life not related to fitness that is just not serving you in any way totally rationalizing that I'm doing it because it's a good social experience. You know? Yeah, we tend to do that without I

Adam Poehlmann  23:44

think, I think it's taken so long to because it's so normalized. You know, having going to happy hour having a drink after every outing, or every outing is so normal. I even think of people still my age 30 You know, having weekend, you know, benders, and they're like, it's a normal thing for them. And I'm like, What are you doing with your life? But honestly, it's just normal, you know, so

Philip Pape  24:05

they brag about it. And it's like, oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, totally.

Adam Poehlmann  24:09

But I've noticed even more so that people are now like saying, hey, my family is you know, they look at me weird if I don't want to drink or my friends look at me weird. But then I've also noticed that the more they pursue that the less they noticed that like, oh, yeah, it's a normal thing. Now actually, it inspired so and so to stop having alcohol and people are almost kind of like being enlightened. You know, we're like, yeah, some wires are coming off. And they're like, Huh, I guess you're right. That never really served me that much. I enjoyed the taste of it here and there, no doubt, but like, Why do I spend $15 on a drink every time I go out to eat even though I know I'm not going to sleep well, and then I wake up oh, I guess it is normal for me just to have a water or a Diet Coke and call it good. Yeah. So then when people do it,

Philip Pape  24:48

yeah, yeah, no fair point. And then all the other things, you know, why am I getting more belly fat and why? You know, can't I not? Can I not sleep and on and on and on. Right? It goes with that. So and I guess when you talk about are being stigmatized or was stigmatized. But now you can be an inspiration for people. I mean, I think that principle is the same with a lot of what we do. That's good for us. I'll say, I always use the word good and bad. But you know what I mean, it's, it serves us that we're weird. We're outliers. Like, even what we do here, still is the percentage of people like, I don't know if you'd agree with that. But like, even going after mastery, or personal growth just seems to be the smallest minorities, which almost encourages me that I want to be doing that it must be the right thing, and hopefully inspire more people to do that.

Adam Poehlmann  25:32

Yeah, no, 100%, there's definitely a ripple effect that people notice there. And I think, not to go too far into the other, you know, I guess, piece of mindset, and people just feeling stuck in their lives. But I think so many people feel that way. Because they don't have an example of what it looks like to not be stuck, you know, not having alcohol might be a small version of that. But maybe there's a broader example of leaving their job and starting a career or being more present with their family, or I think of men in general men, not growing up with an example of what it looks like to be vulnerable, you know, and so we've got a newer couple in our city group at church, and like, he's completely foreign to that, in the last year that he's been with us, you know, he like has been so blessed by seeing other guys just be real about where they're at. And so whoever's listening, whatever that small thing is that right now, or right now might not be the normal, it's probably spinning some wheels for somebody in their head and making them consider living their life differently for the better. So keep doing it. Yeah,

Philip Pape  26:31

yeah. Good point. So speaking of that, hitting a wall, then, just to learn a little bit more about you, can you tell us about a time where, you know, you hit a wall in your fitness journey, in particular, and had to mentally navigate that? Maybe it's recent, maybe it's a long time ago, but something where you maybe drew some isn't one of these deeper, wise lessons that you're sharing with us today?

Adam Poehlmann  26:49

Yeah, I mean, I, I would say honestly, I'm in one right now. You know, I, if I would say I'm in one, if you compare where I'm at now to previous years, you know, when I first got into fitness, I was in the middle of like, I not to be too dramatic, but like an identity crisis type of thing. Like, I wanted to be a professional baseball player my whole life. I spent every waking thought and breath and everything I possibly could on baseball. And then once that was over, I was like, What am I doing here? Like, what's my existence. And so my dad used to be a bodybuilder. And that's how I kind of got into fitness, he brought me to the gym, to distract me, essentially, and keep me from being a total bummer. And I fell in love with that, you know, because it's like, oh, I'm putting this work in, and I see change. And this is really cool. And then I was in college at the time, as well. And so long story short, I saw another trainer and thought, you know, that seems like a pretty cool job. And I can be flexible with hours with college. And I can, you know, make my way through that. And so I did that. And at that time, you know, you have your typical young guy stuff. I'm not dating anybody, I want to get attention, I want to be married at some point, where do I start trying to be hot, right? What's going to help muscles, so you get into that, and then that drives you and drives you and drives you, you start getting bigger, so you get driven even more, and then eventually, you kind of grew up a little bit. And it's not that to be grown up or mature, you don't care about those muscles anymore, but just your priorities start to change over time. And for me right now, like, I'm in more of a wall or a rut, in the sense that I'm just getting my workout in to say that I did it. And to say that or to keep myself from getting fat, essentially, I'm just doing the bare minimum, you know. So what I've been using is anything from extreme cheese, like really cheesy stuff, to stuff that's a little bit more profound. And you know, I don't know right now, if I'm on a trajectory to get to a spot where I feel driven all the time to go to the gym and feel all about it. And so I'm not sure if that exists all the time. But one thing that I do that is It's so cheesy film, but there's this playlist on my gosh, I'm like embarrassed to say it. But there's this playlist on Spotify called Machiavellian motivation. And it basically takes like audio from motivational speakers, Tony Robbins, David Goggins, all that stuff, and puts dramatic, like, score music with it. And if you were to play it in front of your friends at a car, you'd be like, I'm embarrassed for myself. But when you're in the gym, you're gonna move mountains, it's like the best thing in the world. So there's something little like that helps me kind of stir up that mental capability of like, okay, I can do this, this is good for me, I want to do this. And then there's other stuff like, visualizing or maybe even some mental contrasting of like, how am I going to feel if I don't pursue this? How am I going to feel if I give up on the gym? How am I going to feel if I, you know, just call it good with two workouts this week, even though I plan to do four, I'm not going to be proud of myself, I'm not going to feel good. I'm going to feel better if I do it. And that doesn't make me gung ho motivated, want to do it, but it definitely gets me to the gym and I get it done. So those are some things that I've been doing right now. And I you know, do that same thing I talked about earlier. I'll think about what I'm going to do in the gym. What exercise I'm going to start with, kind of run myself through how's my body feeling in this current moment? How will I want to warm up because of that? What are some things I need to watch out for and then I walked my son through that workout, and then I'm better able to go in there and feel as if I have done this before. And that helps so much. So those aren't anything like, they're not profound, but that's what I'm doing right now. I

Philip Pape  30:12

mean, some people listening and probably maybe not doing anything, right, and they're sitting on their couch or whatever. And I mean, hopefully everybody listen to this podcast, they're totally jacked, they got it all down, you know, 85% Stick. But I mean, the reality is, everybody, including people who are proclaimed or not proclaimed experts, and even their success of this, and they teach people this thing, we all have struggles. And I don't know, you may have had something coming up in your life that cause another thing to be the priority, or you lost motivation, because whatever drove you before, didn't drive you any more. And you're sharing these tools in the toolbox. Like, there's some external motivation. There's the music, there's the visual contrasting, which is great, because now you're imagining how much it would suck not to do it before you do, you don't do it, as opposed to waiting and then feeling the suck and then being like, letting that motivate you maybe next time. So yeah, man, it's good to hear this. How's the podcast going? Because I say that, because I know, there was a little gap there. I don't know, if that was like intentional, or you're just getting back on the mic. You know, it was intentional break.

Adam Poehlmann  31:12

Yeah. So essentially, the gap there was, I was going hard at it with not much intention, other than I'm gonna put out three episodes a week. And that's pretty much it. That's all I'm gonna do, and use it as a way to have long form content, because social media obviously is like the worst place for nuance and context and whatnot. And, you know, hopefully, help with the know, like, and trust factor, you know, my job is getting clients and taking them to their goals and easy way for someone to know like, and trust me is hearing my voice and talk and whatnot. So I just started doing that and was really, really consistent with it. And then there was a period where things got a lot more inconsistent, because I was going through some like mentorship, business coaching. So I was going all in on social media, I was going all in on email I was going all in on I'm serving my clients, even more so than I was in the past, which is like crazy to think it's like, how do you even expand on that, and the podcast just took a backseat. And now I'm kind of in a spot where I'm gaining more of a consistent rhythm. And this is one of the things Believe it or not, I don't love everything that I do. But podcasting is one of the few things that I love. Like I love it. The podcast itself, I'm sure compared to others, it's horrible. If I'm honest with you, I don't even look at the numbers. I have no clue. But I love having conversations, even if it's just with myself. And so for me, it's like, okay, I need to pour into what fills my soul and what gives me joy. And that's the podcast. And so that's the reason that you saw a little bit of a break there. And ideally, it'll maintain consistency again. Yeah,

Philip Pape  32:37

and I wasn't trying to call you out is more of an observation, you know, like, not wondering, it's, I can relate to so much of that. Yeah, yeah, but about the podcast and wanting to make it yours and make it kind of serve you and the audience, because that's what we got in this because we love it. We had some personal experience with all of this. And that is going to help people the most is really tying into that and not just, you know, being a Wikipedia article of information. I say that because the one one star review I had, the guy called me a Wikipedia article for this. He said, It sounds like I was reading from Wikipedia, you know, and that's when it gets to like, the limiting beliefs and the Yeah, the self doubt. And you're like, Well, you've got all these five star reviews. What about those, you know, and we do this to ourselves, dude, yes. 100%. That's one of the mindset. So like, you know, people listening, this is real, right? Like, this is real stuff. Real life effects everything.

Adam Poehlmann  33:25

Can I Yeah, go ahead, please.

Philip Pape  33:27

Got some other stuff. Please. Jet? No,

Adam Poehlmann  33:29

you're good. One of the things. There was a period at the beginning of this where you asked me a question, and I really stumbled because I was like, what was the beginning of his question? I forgot. I should just stop the mask. But you reminded me as you talked about the negatives, and one of them was the fact that like you said, we just focus on these negatives, you have all these five star reviews, you get that one star, you get that one negative comment that one troll on social media. And you're like, do I actually know what I'm talking about? Right now, on paper, yeah, like, on paper, you're like, This is user 123456. And it's a dog cartoon with sunglasses. That's a profile picture, private profile, you're like, on paper, this should not matter. But Emotionally, it matters so much. The most

34:13

value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgment, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Phillip really embodied all of those qualities. I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Adam Poehlmann  34:58

So I heard someone say once i wish i To remember where I heard it, but our minds kind of focus on the negatives and they use this illustration where you know if you have this bowl of your favorite what's your favorite ice cream?

Philip Pape  35:08

Peanut Butter Cup?

Adam Poehlmann  35:09

Go it. Okay. What brand? Oh,

Philip Pape  35:12

yeah, anything but like, I'll go to Dairy Queen or something like that, you know, like Reese's Peanut Butter Cups lizard or something you need to Yeah.

Adam Poehlmann  35:19

So you have your your your Reese's Peanut Butter Cup ice cream, right? And then you have a cockroach on top. Okay, exactly, exactly. It's like that cockroach just touched the top, you're not even focused on the ice growing. Right. But if you have a bowl of cockroaches, and one dollop of your or, you know, scoop of your favorite ice cream cockroaches, so I think about right, and it just kind of illustrates how easy it is for us to focus on the negative, we have to put so much work in to focus on the positives, we have to go out of our way because our default is to focus on the negative. And tying that back into earlier when I said that I kind of forgot the beginning of your question, when you asked about the practical tips. Before getting into the practical tips. One of the most important things is understanding the power of your mind. So you can believe that the practical tips will work. And there are a few things that come to mind with this. And there are some papers that have illustrated it. But we all probably understand the placebo and nocebo effect, you know, you give someone a sugar pill, they think it's something that physiological effects will come into play. You give them a no SIBO where it's like you just tell them that something's happening. They believe it. So two great examples. One was like, it's I think I don't even know if it's called the milkshake experiment, but that's what it's commonly called, where two groups were given the same milkshake and one group it was told, I use this with my fat loss clients a lot. One group was told it was very calorie dense, you know, satiating, filling milkshake, the other group was told it was a very, quote unquote, sensible low calorie milkshake. Well, the group that was told it was a sensible milkshake had far more hunger, they felt deprived, and they felt like they felt fatigued. Whereas the satiating milkshake group, the ones that were told it was a shame, we're like, I'm great, you know. So even when it comes to calories, how we think we're going to feel is often how we feel there was another one that took two groups of people one at clerk maintenance, one at clerk deficit, and they did the same thing told them, hey, you're in a deficit, hey, you're you're not. And the group in a deficit experienced? Well, this group was told they weren't in a deficit, even though they were experienced less hunger than all that stuff. And then another one that makes me think of the, the effect is, these took these college aged guys, which is like every study, but they took these colleges guys, and then told them that they were taking steroids. And I think they're, I'll have to remember what exercise I want to say it was leg press bench and something else, but increased by 33%. And it was like, it wasn't in a long period of time, like it was quick. And so our minds are far more powerful than we give them credit for. And so before even going into the practical tips, is really just understanding and accepting that, hey, your mind can take you to places that your body thought it could never go. And you need to just train it. And when you accept that's the truth, and then go into the practical, you'll move mountains. It's crazy. Yeah,

Philip Pape  38:09

it is true, how powerful it is. And sometimes, like when I think of going to the gym, so I'm recovering from shoulder surgery last year, it's like almost a year ago, right? That's a doozy. rotator cuff is tough, because like you recover, you recover, you recover. And then there's like the setbacks because you end up pushing too hard. And bursitis and all that comes up. So yesterday was the first time I did like, just overhead press work in a couple months, like I had gotten to it. And then I had to get off of it to kind of recover it and got back to it. But my mind was telling me like, there's no way right, because, you know, just opening up my arm and trying to press over, there's this little bit of soreness and pain there. Right, but it's manageable. And you just have like you said, you just have to tell yourself, no, this is 100%. Possible. My trainer said I'm good to go. Like just do it. And then you realize you do it right. Yep. And it holds us back as much as it could help us move forward. So I think that's the power of it is like, how much can give us the power to move forward?

Adam Poehlmann  39:03

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's what that's why I brought the ice cream thing. So it's like that power is going to be there either way? Are you going to let the default override and think about the cockroaches? Or are you going to use it to your advantage and think about the ice cream or, you know, whatever the positive outcome is that you're wanting?

Philip Pape  39:19

So in practical purposes, then this sounds somewhat tied into we talked about limiting beliefs on the negative side, right? Like we're telling ourselves things and then we reinforcing in our mind, shifting from that to maybe releasing those and then embracing new beliefs. What is the practical that's what people want to know, like, how do I make myself think I'm in a surplus when I'm not right? Or is that like when you're in a deficit and you're not at a deficit because either your your weight is going down, or you're tracking your food, you're gonna know so and maybe that's not the example that you'll be able to apply to yourself. But totally, there definitely

Adam Poehlmann  39:51

is an element right there of like, for example, those people being studied were lied to right and you can't lie to yourself. But that's the point is like understanding that a lot of how you feel comes from your mind can help you have that positive self talk. And then that will improve over time, even though you know you're doing it. But as far as a practical from a food standpoint, and even taking that calorie deficit standpoint, one of my favorite things to go over with people, and I think it's if I'm being 100% honest with you, a part of the reason, the whole notion that, you know, under a certain amount of calories, like the imaginary 1300, or 1200 calories is inherently bad is all over the place, is because even though it's not scientifically true at all, is because we lack an abundance mindset with food, especially when it comes to a calorie deficit. So when we focus on adding, and not taking away, that's huge. So all that means is like you are just you're adding low calorie, nutrient dense foods to your diet, instead of looking at your diet and saying, Hey, what are all these quote unquote, bad things or hypercaloric things that I need to take away? We say, What am I lacking that I can add, I'm not getting any spinach, and I'm not getting any greens. And let's add some spinach in there. I'm not getting any fruit in on a regular basis, let's add some of that in, I'm not getting any fiber way below the minimum RDA, like I should be getting more, and let's add more of that. And what tends to happen is the stuff that is bad or does not align with your goals. And what you want out of your nutrition will find its way out. But as you're doing it, you're not doing it from like a depravity mindset, you're giving yourself stuff you're adding and adding and adding and adding and adding. So that is going to help you psychologically, so with a nutritional piece, that one is huge. In terms of the workout piece. So hold

Philip Pape  41:34

on before before we go there, because there's a few different scenarios, I want to break down on that fat loss versus like, you know, when we're talking about getting more protein or whatever, obviously, you can apply to anything, right, this additive approach. And just something just came to mind, like I'm in a fat loss phase. So you know, getting the hunger, I know that if I add a huge bowl of strawberries, you know, to whatever I'm eating in the afternoon, even if I have a craving for a granola bar or whatever, adding that in is both going to serve what you said, like the nutrients and it's gonna fill up my stomach, and all of a sudden the rest of the days. Yes, hunky dory.

Adam Poehlmann  42:05

So you're used to that hyper palatable, highly processed diet. That's just our environment. You know, it's, it's, we're a product of an environment. So it's goes back to the alcohol piece, you know, you just don't know what you don't know. And so once you realize, okay, the way we used to live, and I'm not saying that, you know, we should live like our ancestors it all the time, but like the way we used to live, we had food when we were hungry, and then we had food that was very low and calorie and very satiating, we had a lot of it. I was reading a few studies of a couple of weeks ago, I think that they even in modern hunter gatherer tribes, some of these guys are getting like 80 to 100 grams of fiber a day. It's absurd. But their calories are not crazy at all, because they're just it's plants and fruits, veggies all the time. And so you don't know what you don't know. But once you start realizing, oh, okay, if I just pursue more whole natural nutrient dense foods, especially fiber, and I pursue food volume, strawberries, watermelon, whatever, I can have so much food without having tons of calories. I can actually more food volume than I did before when I was eating more calories.

Philip Pape  43:08

Yeah, Justin Caudill was on the show. I don't know if you've talked to him yet. But you'd love to guy. He's an anatomist. Like he did cadaver research. He was head of like the human anatomy lab. So he comes from that perspective. And he's Oh, sweet. You saw the gut health and the hodza tribe, and how they like the children have, they have large bellies, but it's not descended from like malnutrition, it's because of all the gas being produced by the gut bacteria from all the fiber the interesting, right? And because they have such diversity and such a like large microbiome. Anyway, you mentioned that they also eat a lot of honey, right, which is nutrient dense, but it's like a good balance part of their, you know, calories that they get on the side topic.

Adam Poehlmann  43:45

No, you're good. And then I was just gonna say with the workout piece, that one's a little harder, right? Because working out is in the moment, hard. It's physically exhausting, it's exerting. And one of this is going to be like someone that seems like will die. But one of the best pieces I can give, one of the best pieces of advice I can give to people is what I tell my clients when it comes to progressing, and adding the next weight is just try and who cares if you don't get the reps that you're supposed to? If you don't give yourself that opportunity to stretch yourself? How are you ever going to know what you are capable of, and what you may not be capable of? You know, so instead of wondering, ooh, shoot, you know, I only got 10 reps in the leg press with 200 pounds. I don't know if I can go to 210. What is someone going to come up and kill you? If you get eight reps with 210? Go for it. Right? So there's an element of creating that self belief to the reps and then there's also an element to of exposing your body to that stimulus because your body will respond. I think that the human body is one of the most profound adaptation machines we've ever seen. And it will respond to whatever it is that you're doing. Do we have physical limitations? Absolutely. We can't turn into the Incredible Hulk we have a ceiling in some regard. But most of us don't have any understanding of what our ceiling is you I think that if we look at most, again, another study that I'm not remembering the title of, but if we look at elite power lifters, right, they supposedly can access upwards of like 96% 97% of their total strength, whereas the average human being can access maybe the 50 to 60%. And so there is an immense amount of untapped potential that your body will let you do, or get to, if you just give it the opportunity, just say, Hey, buddy, I need you here. It'll come through for you. So just trying and putting yourself out there, exposing yourself getting the practice and getting the reps in, that will also make you more confident with your ability to challenge yourself and push yourself. And so though, it will become physically easier, it will become mentally easier, and there won't be an obstacle or a hurdle to overcome next time, you need to push yourself. So

Philip Pape  45:47

that's a really good one. And we got to sit on this one for a bit, the just try thing because in my early days of doing strength training, I did a starting training program, right, which is sets across a five reps. And you're kind of forced, when you do sets across like you want to get those reps. So it almost like it kind of pushes you to go past that lizard brain limit. Because you're like, I gotta get five. Like it's not I don't have eight to 12. I'm going for an RPE. But what are your thoughts about newer lifters especially, or even intermediate who just aren't pushing hard enough? They're not getting anywhere close to failure they think they are? And if you said document your RPE? They'll they'll say nine, you're like, that's a six? What are your thoughts on all of that? And maybe a simple approach for newer lifters to just get in the mindset of hitting that rep closer to failure? Besides just try because I love I love just try I do. But is there a mechanistic way we can even like mistake proof that early on? Yeah,

Adam Poehlmann  46:42

that's a really good question. You know, I would imagine there's going to be a lot of variance with that. But the first thing I would say Phillip is training in a strength based rep range. So a rep range that focuses on the adaptation of strength. And so that's low to maybe moderate. This is one of the first times in my life that I realized how strong I could be. Because before I was so obsessed, like I said, with building bigger muscles, and so the thought of like, going below eight reps, I was like, what, that's who would do that, that's stupid. And I started getting into deadlifting. And I would do two reps and three reps. And I was like, Whoa, there's a lot here, like my central nervous system can do a lot that I didn't think he could before. So I would say, lowering reps a bit, can definitely help. Because one thing that I think happens when you have higher, maybe more moderate rep ranges is that you start to feel that burn, you start to feel that metabolic stress, you know, that pump, and that's definitely a level of discomfort, but it's not like mechanical or technical failure of the muscle. Whereas with strength and those lower reps, you don't build up a lot of that metabolic damage. So you don't get that sensation before you physically cannot move anymore, like you like literally cannot get it up. And so I think that's an easy way for you to introduce yourself to what it actually looks like to get to failure, then once you start to get into those more moderate rep ranges, then you just have to get to the hurdle of like, okay, am I convincing myself that I'm getting to failure because I'm fatigued. And I'm feeling that stress, and I'm feeling that strain. And so I want to slow down and stop, or is this an actual, I'm giving every last bit of energy that I possibly can, and the machine or barbell or weight literally is not moving. That's the first thing. The second thing, and I would definitely recommend doing this with machines. Not so much with free weights, even if you have a spotter. But intentionally go to failure. Practice it 100%, practice it, not all the time. But like pick a workout or one exercise each workout the last set, take it to absolute failure. And then once you think you've reached failure, pause for like two seconds and try to do another rep, and then do it again and do it again. Because this is where the mindset we can use our mind to kind of trick ourselves and I even catch myself doing this is one of the best ways to look at RPE is the velocity that we have in our reps, like how much our reps are slowing down. Because RPE can be a little subjective, you know, it's that feeling how did I feel like what was a nine, it's like, well, the speed of your rep from the second rep to the 10th rep was the exact same, but you saw the 10. So clearly, you weren't, you know, reaching failure. But if we look at our velocity, and rep is really slowing down, and it is like a grind to even move it another inch, another inch or inch, then you know you're really getting to that failure. But you can easily trick yourself, you know and think Oh man, I'm really tired. And then that year, yes, seventh rep is pretty quick. And then that eighth rep all of a sudden just slows down drastically. Right? And you're like, you're like, Okay, I'm convincing myself that I'm fatigued here. But learning to push through that and actually just go through failure, I think is really one of the best learning experiences you can have just getting those pun intended reps in so you can familiarize yourself with what true failure looks like. So hopefully that's a little bit more helpful. Right. Yeah,

Philip Pape  50:00

no, that's great. And of course, if you have a coach, if you have someone doing form checks, they'll be able to see the speed as well and kind of know what's going on. Yes.

Adam Poehlmann  50:06

And that's another thing, actually, thank you for actually saying that. filming yourself is huge. Because when we, this is someone you know, I've, I did training. In high school for baseball, I did training in college for baseball, I've been working out for a very long time. And it wasn't until I was able to fill myself more in the gym, I would say, in the first few years of me personal training that I was actually able to see how I was pushing myself in ways that were maybe too much because my form got way too sloppy, or not at all right? Because I was stopping because of the burn or whatever or I was psyching myself out, filming yourself really is a great way for you to remove yourself from the first person and look at it from the third person. And it helps at least in my opinion, it helps you look at what you're doing more objectively doesn't matter if you have a coach, you know, to look at it, you, you look at how you're doing that how you're performing that set. And that's really going to give you a lot of insight that I almost guarantee you you did not pick up on when you were in first person mode, going through it yourself.

Philip Pape  51:09

100% I think that works for anything visual, even even like public speaking, anything, just videoing yourself. And one last thing with failure, I just realized, you know, let people been talking about lengthen partials a lot. There's this like, movement of lengthen partial finishers. And I was thinking when you were talking about going to failure, like, if you were to think, okay, my set is going to have lengthen partial finishers at the end, you wouldn't want to start those while you still have gas in the tank to finish full wraps. So that might also create an interesting mental position of like, I'm gonna do the lengthens. But no, wait, I could do a full wrap again and kind of bridge that gap.

Adam Poehlmann  51:43

100%? No, absolutely. There's so many there are so many things to consider there. And I you know, the lengthen partial thing is, I think just yet another example of missing the forest for the trees, I think could it have its time and its place? Absolutely. I've never programmed that in for a client, I would probably never program that in for myself. Because for me, it's you know, if I can get to a point where I can put more weight on for the last set and do lengthen partials, like you said, does that mean that I left stuff on the table during the second set, and during the first set. And for me, and I think it should be for anybody. If you're progressing your workouts and you're tracking them, you really want to look at how you compare from set one of one exercise to the next day or the next time you did the workout to that set one, you could compare set two to set two and set three to set three if you want to. But you're in a fatigued state. So it's a little harder to assess and judge progress. So for me, you know, if I would rather spend my time and energy trying to figure out how to optimize I should say maximize set one, and then increase that in the next workout rather than thinking, Okay, let's go ahead and just absolutely trash my hamstrings on set 300 set and add more weight. Even though I probably could have done more before that. So if you're already doing that stuff and you want to like you know, just crank it out just to see what happens and you've got everything else dialed in. Go nuts, but I mean, hey, Philip, most people aren't even writing down their basics down. Yeah, they're not, they're not writing down. They're not writing down their their reps, their weight, their exercises. They're even switching workouts every you know, few weeks, which I think can be even too early, sometimes sometimes even doing a new workout every day. And so it's like, how do you know you're progressing? And so, yeah, anyway, that was

Philip Pape  53:21

and it's easy to take this stuff for granted, right? Even though you see clients constantly come in that don't even know the basics, and you have to re educate them. But then you're like, doesn't everybody know this stuff? But

Adam Poehlmann  53:31

it don't make anybody like listening feel better? Like I kid you not? I'd never seen would ever seen myself programming that in my workout. It's like, Why? Why am I going to spend my mental energy doing that for something that maybe gets less than a percentage of growth? You know, anyway,

Philip Pape  53:45

so yeah, I guess the last topic because there were a lot of things we could talk about with mindset. I wanted to talk about like this diet, we have have information, right? Like, I've been thinking about this a lot, because, you know, I have a friend that does a podcast about how you shouldn't binge podcasts, right? You should like, listen, mindfully and take action. And I heard another guy, a podcast podcast, which I listened to those See, I listen to a lot. And he's like, stop listening at one and a half speed. If you're doing that, why are you even listening? Like you're just trying to cram in more information rather than just absorb it. And then there's just the sheer quantity if you're on Instagram and Twitter and threads and Facebook, which a lot of people are on like eight social media platforms. It's just like, bombarding you. How do we deal with all that? Like? That's a big question. It's a big loaded question, but it does affect your mind. And it affects like you take an action sometimes not taking action because you're just like, I don't even know where to go. Yeah.

Adam Poehlmann  54:40

Yeah, absolutely. It is. We definitely live in a consumeristic culture and mindset, not even the sense of like materialism but information to all we do is consume. I couldn't think about it at church. Sometimes Sometimes I catch myself being like, Oh, I wish so and so is speaking, you know, because I think I enjoy it more. It's like What am I here to consumer? Am I here to like serve? What's the deal? And so we can easily do that with podcasts with social media with whatever it is. And so one thing that came to mind as you're going through that fill up was like, intention. I felt like, that's the word that came to me. What's the intention? us getting on social media and consuming a certain type of content? What is the intention of turning into a podcast? Am I here to fill space? Or am I here to learn a specific thing? And so I think one thing that is extremely helpful is understanding what you are trying to learn at this current time. One thing, one thing and make it very specific, not hey, how can I improve my nutrition? Like, one specific thing, meal planning, I want to learn everything that I possibly can about meal planning. And these are the questions that I have about meal planning. Right? How do people that are so busy fit it in? How do you time block time to do that? How do you grocery shop for that? I think, actually, at the very worst, thinking through those questions, but at the at least, or the very best writing them down. And then using those platforms, or those long form, yeah, podcasts, whatever, to get those answers. But I think what happens oftentimes, is we just open up the screen with no intention, then we just consume, and consume and consume. And so we're just left with this paralysis by analysis. And we're left with this doubt, and we're left with with so and so said this, and so and said that so and so said that, I mean, heck, that's one of the reasons most of my clients come in, they're like, I just need to clear the noise. And I need someone to tell me what to do. Because all this is too much to, to take in. And I'm constantly doubting myself. So anyway, figuring out what the intention is and what you're trying to learn. And I would do that for a period of time, maybe a week, about one thing, or a month about one thing. When you look at people who do really well in life, they take time to master and focus on one thing really, really well. Right? They're not people who are jumping from this to that, this thing and that thing, and whatever. You know, it would be weird. If you saw a professional baseball player, going through their practice routine, and for 10 minutes, they practice basketball for 10 minutes, they practice football for 10 minutes, they practice hitting for 10 minutes, they practice pitching, like, what are you doing? Right? If you're a pitcher practice pitching. So same thing, we want to get very specific with what it is we're trying to learn, and pursue that intentionally. And then once you're done, you've written down what you want to do, throw it away, and then apply it. And then rinse and repeat. But the problem is we consume, we get it in our mind. And then before we have a chance to process and think we've shoved the next thing in there, and then we shove the next thing in there over and over. And so stuff starts to slip out. So practically speaking, that's what I do. So I will pick, I will get a book that physically, I can't listen to it, you know, one and a half times speed, I can't, you know, like change my reading speed. People say you can't I haven't tried. But it slows me down is the point. I have a pen, I circle I underline, I bookmark things. And then I go back. And I think, what was I originally like reading this book for? And what things that I save helped me with that. And then how can I go apply that into my life. And then for a period of time might be a few days, it might be a week, it might be six months, I apply those things into my life. And then I will go on to the next thing if I feel the need or I will revisit that same thing, if I feel like those answers still aren't there. So I don't know if that helps at all, or clarifies.

Philip Pape  58:16

It helps. It helps a lot. I mean, it explains you in a sense from what you're saying, in fact, we're going back to talking about being obsessed about something and obsessed in a positive way, like putting all your energy into one thing, because we're so distracted. And I think back to like, I used to play saxophone a lot. And actually, I want to pick it up more frequently than I do. It's one of those things, you know, like, I gotta be intentional about it. But you know, you've always heard it takes 10,000 hours to master an instrument, and you have to just constantly apply yourself and fitness is the same way but also information. Before we go on to this. You mentioned note taking in the books. Have you heard of the book, The well educated mind. It's by Susan wise Bauer and she's actually in the homeschool community because we homeschool our kids. Oh, and she wrote a book for mothers to use as curriculum that we've been following for years. She wrote a book for adults on how to do what they used to do, which is actually dissect the book, like a classic and go through it multiple times in an organized like hierarchical way. So you might find that interesting as a method or I'm absolutely going to add that so that's what I did mine. Okay, that's a good one. Yeah. Anyway, so when people are doing all this with podcasts, like I say podcasts, but it could be anything else. Instagram, Facebook, whatever. How would you say you apply that to that? Because I see definitely how it applies to books, podcasts, you ask questions, you dig down into a topic, you seek it out, you start to like find the fluff and the nonsense and you jettison that and it converges, right. Like I've been through that myself with fitness I knew all the nonsense five years ago, and now I know a little bit less nonsense, so I'm a little bit more educated. Exactly. Or I can spot it. Let's just put it that way. But like I feel like social media is kind of nefarious, just in itself, by definition in that there's, you know, you're the product and I'm trying to give you ads. And that's the whole point of it. How would you use Instagram? For example, to do this?

Adam Poehlmann  1:00:05

Yeah, so this one's tough for sure. Because you you are, you can't change the way it works, right? It is, in and of itself a short form quick, you know, fix dopamine hit. So you can't change the nature of social media, this kind of goes into the internal and external locus of control, can't change the nature of social media, that would be ridiculous. But you can adopt an internal locus of control, and change the way that you use the social media or the way that you respond to it. So one of the things that comes to mind and the first thing I thought of as having utilizing that saved feature, okay, now, you still have to go a step further than that, right? So for me, I have a lot of different folders in there, right? So I have folders on business, I have folders on nutrition, I have folders on coaching and training concepts. I have a hilarious, funny folder, I'll have a Kaylee folder where like, she'll think this is funny, then I'll show her, you know, but those folders don't mean anything, if you don't go through them. And so what I would say is save stuff that is truly important to you. And then set aside some dedicated time to go through that folder and say, okay, is this something that I really like, cared about? Because sometimes in that moment, you're like, well, I'll save this recipe, I'm for sure gonna make that I saved it two years ago. Clearly, you don't think you didn't need it, so you can throw it away. But if there's stuff where it's like, oh, yeah, this was profound, then you can actually figure out how to apply that into your life. I think that's one way you can use social media. Another way, is obviously filtering. You know, if there are people that you follow that you haven't applied a single piece of advice from unfollowed him, like, I don't care how good their advice is on social media, you didn't do anything with it, it would be far better for you to take the mediocre advice that you constantly apply and keep pursuing that than to take the great advice that you never apply. So unfollow people, like I do that all the time. Like, I'll go through and be like, Who have I not seen anything from? Who do I not listen to? Who is just kind of a piece of flash with information, but I haven't utilized any of it unfollow. And so that's what I would recommend there as well. And then in terms of the actual platforms themselves, I would honestly, you know, actually not that I think of it. If you find yourself not using social media for the things that you claim you're using it for, like learning things and getting information, maybe just make social media purely about entertainment, and go to podcast for fitness, go to books for fitness, go to longer YouTube videos for fitness, whatever it is, and maybe just use social media purely for entertainment. That's maybe another solution. Again, not a social media expert. But that's one thing that comes to mind. So I don't know, I don't know if that's helpful. I don't know what you would add to that.

Philip Pape  1:02:37

Yeah, yeah, no, I, I'm just I'm giving you the space here. Don't put me on the spot. No, but seriously, for me, I like I do like the idea that platforms have a purpose. And maybe we're trying to shoehorn it into the wrong thing. Because like, I personally, I don't know how much I learned from IG, except occasionally, I'll see some gold come out in a in a video where somebody has really taken the time to give some value, you know, and that's the difference between people are just like cranking out viral stuff versus, you know, they really are trying to help with their message, even though they're also trying to get followers. And like you said, you could save it or you know, learn from it. It's

Adam Poehlmann  1:03:12

very Yeah, it's very, it's very rare, I would agree I can, I can think I can think of off top my head, I'm sure if I went through it, I could, but I can't think off the top of my head, the last time that I saw a post or a reel where I was like, holy smokes, this is life changing, you know, like this, I changed everything in my business or everything in my marriage or everything, whatever. Because of this, what actually ends up happening is I'll see something, I like it, go to the profile, go to their other stuff. And then that's where stuff comes in. You know, and I always tell people all the time, they usually say something like this, where it's like, Man, I, there's just all this information out there. And I'm in the same spot. And sometimes I'm like, Do you really think everybody's free information is going to, like help you as much as their coaching or their long form content or whatever. No, like it's not, it's not going to. So yes, utilize it, if it helps for sure. But go into the rabbit hole a little bit. And don't be afraid to do it. Utilize something that is maybe paid it costs you $20 For an ebook, but at least you can go all the way through it and read it and actually take something versus just scrolling on to the next reel. Because that's another thing that's kind of unhelpful with the reels of the post is that we don't have enough time to digest and process what we just consumed. It's on to the next thing. I guarantee you if I were to scroll right now for five minutes, and you were to ask me what I watched, I would probably remember the one funny video that I liked died laughing and saved it and I would not remember anything else no matter how profound I thought it was in that moment. So yeah, anyway,

Philip Pape  1:04:34

it's so true. It's so true. Some of my favorite like followers on the short form platforms are the ones who listen to my podcast you know, it's like that's where they know me. Right? Right and you're right you're right so and obviously people are listening to this show too and they can follow your stuff and you've got some maybe they I don't know if their life changing but hey, I referenced one in here about the contrasting which is a you did actionable thing. And just so the listener knows like one of our longtime listeners and former client of mine, you know List follows Allah, Adam and was touched by a few of his posts in terms of actually taking action. And he's an action taker. So that's what you got to be too. Anyway. All right, man. So we've covered a lot here. I'm sure there's a million other things we can get into. But it's, I do like to ask this question of guests. And that is, is there anything you wish I had asked in this whole conversation that I didn't? And if so, what would be your answer?

Adam Poehlmann  1:05:22

Man, that is a great question. To answer anything that I wish you asked. Honestly, there's nothing that comes to mind. We got into a lot, we got into the mindset piece, I got to share a little bit about my faith, I got to share some vulnerable things about where I'm at with working out in training, and I've loved it. So there's nothing that comes to mind.

Philip Pape  1:05:39

Yeah, likewise, man has a lot of fun, supernatural. Yeah, we're on the same page. And, you know, we all have different perspectives and backgrounds, but it's like, man, we're just trying to get this done. And everybody listening, just change your lives. I mean, it'll if you do something you learn today, do it Adam suggesting like, rewind, go back, find some of those excellent quotes, like the one he just said, which was, keep, you know, if you take action on mediocre advice, it's gonna be better than not taking action on the best advice. Very important statement right there. You know, it doesn't have to be perfect. So all right, where can listeners learn more about you, Adam?

Adam Poehlmann  1:06:11

Yeah. So y'all listeners, you can find me on Instagram. That's where I'm the most active and it's just my first name. Last Name. Holman is po EHL. Ma. And, and, and the German relatives really gave me a hard time with that one. And it's a little tricky. Yeah. But yeah, that's okay. And then obviously, the fitness show on Spotify and Apple podcasts. And then you can find me on threads to same Adam Pullman. That's by far where I am the most active. And if you're someone who is a gym goer and wants to drop 10 plus pounds without strict dieting, and you want some more in depth stuff, I've got a free Facebook group called the transformation tribe where I put out live workshops and put out some more in depth content that goes a little bit deeper than the surface level stuff you might see on social media. So that's where y'all can find me if you want to.

Philip Pape  1:06:55

And Adams, a great master at using these platforms, the way they're intended, like so on threads threads is great, just for the quick tips, you know, and here's how you do it act take action, it kind of cuts out all the distractions in the video and images, all that and in the Facebook group. Yeah, I think Facebook groups like that can be awesome for just getting in that community and that relatedness and finding other people who can motivate you and help you get there. So check all that out. I'll throw it in the show notes been an awesome conversation. Adam, thank you so much for taking the time.

Adam Poehlmann  1:07:21

Absolutely, Philip. Thanks for having me on.

Philip Pape  1:07:25

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their weights or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Q&A - Rapid Fat Loss, Body Recomp, Building Muscle Over 40, Tracking Veggies w/Jeff Hoehn | Ep 184

Is rapid weight loss worth the risk? Can you really build muscle while losing fat? How important is nutrition tracking for your fitness journey?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes back Jeff Hoehn for another co-hosted Q&A episode. This time, they discuss aggressive fat loss strategies, the benefits of higher protein intake, and overcoming menopause-related hurdles. They dive into the controversial topic of rapid weight loss, the importance of structured diet breaks, and the real deal about slow metabolism. Philip and Jeff also compare powerlifting and bodybuilding during fat loss phases, emphasizing the role of heavy compound lifts and hypertrophy training. They also talk about nutrition tracking, low-calorie, nutrient-dense foods, and fiber intake.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:24 What are your views on rapid fat loss and the frequency of aggressive cuts? Also, how do you feel about protein-sparing modified fasting in a 5:2 diet for general weight loss?
12:10 Does consuming more protein than recommended have any benefits?
19:35 How can I effectively lose fat and reveal muscle definition despite increasing my calorie intake, exercising regularly, and maintaining a high-protein diet?
32:38 How feasible is it to build muscle in a deficit?
44:15 Heavier weight or more reps for an older guy looking to build a base for longevity?
54:09 In fat loss, does counting veggies affect the macros? Should I log them?
59:10 Outro

Episode resources:

• The Mind Muscle Connection podcast

• Jeff’s IG: @jeffhoehn_

Related episodes:

• Ep 169: Q&A w/Jeff Hoehn – Menopause Weight Loss, Bulking Without Getting Fat, & Cutting on Low Sleep

• Ep 178: Sleep Science - Doing THIS in the Bedroom is Killing Your Fat Loss, Gains, Hormones, & Metabolism

• Ep 180: The New Over 50 Roadmap to Lifelong Strength, Health, Muscle, and Longevity

Episode summary:

In this episode, we delve deep into the multifaceted world of fitness and nutrition with Jeff Hoehn from the Mind Muscle Connection podcast. This episode is packed with science-backed strategies and practical tips to help you achieve your fitness goals, whether you're looking to build muscle, lose fat, or navigate menopause-related challenges. Join us as we uncover the truths about aggressive fat loss, high protein diets, and the importance of personalized fitness plans.

One of the central themes we discuss is the possibility of building muscle while losing fat. This concept, often met with skepticism, is explored through the lens of individual body composition and training history. For those with higher body fat percentages, muscle gain in a calorie deficit is achievable, provided that other conditions such as proper sleep, stress management, and a specific training regimen are met. We emphasize that while muscle can be built in a deficit, it is generally less efficient than building muscle at maintenance or in a caloric surplus. This nuanced understanding helps set realistic expectations and guides listeners on how to tailor their fitness plans.

Aggressive fat loss strategies are another hot topic. We break down the pros and cons of rapid weight loss, particularly the protein-sparing modified fast within a 5-2 diet framework. Jeff shares his own experience with a rapid fat loss protocol inspired by Dr. Bill Campbell, highlighting the importance of maintaining high protein intake and rigorous training during short, aggressive deficits. The discussion underscores the need for adequate recovery between cycles and the potential mental hurdles of adhering to such a regimen. We advocate for personalized approaches that ensure long-term adherence and success, rather than extreme methods that may lead to unsustainable habits.

High protein diets are essential for both muscle building and fat loss. We explore the benefits and potential downsides of consuming higher-than-recommended amounts of protein. While the optimal range for muscle building is typically between 0.8 to 1 gram per pound of body weight, higher protein intake can aid in satiety and thermic effect, which are beneficial for fat loss. However, we also address potential drawbacks, such as reduced carbohydrate and fat intake, digestive challenges, and dietary monotony. The importance of individual preferences and dietary goals in determining the appropriate level of protein consumption is emphasized, ensuring that listeners can make informed choices that align with their fitness objectives.

For those facing menopause-related fitness challenges, we provide tailored advice on how to navigate this life stage. We discuss the impact of age and hormonal changes on body composition and stress the importance of tracking progress accurately. Practical tips are offered on setting realistic goals, emphasizing other metrics such as strength and measurements over scale weight, and ensuring a balanced approach to nutrition and training. The episode highlights the significance of patience, consistency, and aligning fitness goals with personal values for long-term success.

Powerlifting versus bodybuilding styles during fat loss phases is another area of focus. We clarify the differences between these approaches and emphasize the importance of incorporating hypertrophy-focused training to maximize muscle retention and growth. The concept of auto-regulated training is introduced, where adjusting volume rather than just intensity can stimulate muscle growth even in a calorie deficit. This section aims to debunk misconceptions around the necessity of a caloric surplus for muscle gain, particularly for individuals with higher body fat percentages, and highlights the potential for body recomposition.

Strength training for longevity and functionality is crucial, especially for older adults. We discuss the benefits of combining heavy compound lifts with muscle-building exercises to enhance daily activities and prevent falls. Joint health and recovery are addressed, with recommendations on easing into routines and allowing adequate recovery time. Personal preference and consistency are highlighted as key factors in sustaining an exercise regimen, reinforcing the idea that the best exercise is one that an individual enjoys and can maintain over time.

Practical tips on tracking nutrition are provided, focusing on the practicality of logging meals and the importance of accuracy with calorie-dense foods. The discussion emphasizes that if positive results are being seen, meticulous tracking of low-calorie, nutrient-dense foods like vegetables may not be necessary. However, tracking might be beneficial if a plateau is reached or if micronutrient intake is being monitored. The importance of fiber intake for better health outcomes is also underscored.

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:00

How often can you safely repeat an aggressive cut for rapid fat loss? Can consuming more protein than the recommended amount really benefit you? What's the best strategy for postmenopausal women struggling with fat loss? Is it truly possible to build muscle in a calorie deficit? Today I'm again conspiring with Jeff Hain of the mind muscle connection podcast for a special co hosted q&a, where we tackle these burning questions and more, leaving nothing on the table. Welcome to the wit's end waits podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in.

Jeff Hoehn  00:53

Hey guys, welcome back to our second q&a cohosted episode so we have the mind muscle connection in the woods and week's podcast. Philip Pape is the host of the Whitson weights podcast and myself Jeff hain, the host of the mind muscle connection podcast. So yeah, this is the second one we did in the first one did great. So we want to tap back on here and get some q&a going. So excited to have you guys for this episode. If you aren't familiar with Philip, he is the host of the Whitson weights podcast. He has a wide range of coaches on and a few that you know if you listen to the mind muscle connection that you're familiar with Brandon Cruz, Brian Borstein, Jordan lips, among others. And and obviously I'm seeing guests that Phillip has on and having them on mine as well, too. He has multiple episodes per week going over all things nutrition, lifting, muscle metabolism and fat loss. So make sure you give his podcast a follow or subscribe. And again, I think Phil does a great job of breaking things down makes it very applicable for the everyday person, which I think is great. And not enough people do that. And sounds great. Everything looks awesome as well, too. So Phillip looking forward to doing this with you again, man. Yeah,

Philip Pape  01:51

Jeff, I'm really excited, man. I mean, last time, you know, we covered a lot of fun topics. And I think we'll do the same thing today. You mentioned the practical side of things. There's so much noise out there. There's also a lot of people that love to get into the science and we do that, but there's a certain limit to where you got to stop geeking out and start telling you what this means for me. And you probably see this with clients, sometimes they can overthink it, right? It's like, well, should it be 0.75 grams of fat per pound of protein right? And we try to distill it and make it simple. So for those of you listening to me now and Whitson weights Jeff ease the man I love his show, I follow up myself, the mind muscle connection, definitely follow it. If not, you are missing out. You know, he's a coach. He's got a ton of personal experience. He's not afraid to question the conventional wisdom. Like I was talking about to find what works. He's got solo episodes, got guest interviews, a lot of great names out there. And so after you're done with this episode, head over to mind muscle connection. Wherever you listen to podcasts, give it a follow. And I think we're ready to get into it, man.

Jeff Hoehn  02:47

Yep, absolutely. I think the last one, we I think it was right around an hour. I think we tackled them all in pretty good amount of time. But yeah, the last one was super fun. So that's why I was like, Hey, let's frickin do this again. And I think a lot of people found it super useful. I know. Like, I think you got good feedback from your audience. I got great feedback from my audience. And you know, everyone was kind of able to check out your podcast, hopefully, and everything like that. So yeah, let's, let's frickin get into it. Usually, when, when I do these with like Brandon and Jeremiah, you start asking Brandon questions. And the next thing you know, it's it's, we're like 45 minutes. And we haven't even answered a question. So yeah, the answer, right. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. And I'm sure some stuff will come up about us a potential year with this. So cool. First question is what are your thoughts on rapid fat loss? And how can you repeat a very aggressive cut related to this? What do you think of protein sparing modified fasting in a five to diet fashion for the general population trying to lose weight? Yeah,

Philip Pape  03:38

so there's like three questions there. I think one is my thoughts on rapid fat loss. Another is how often can you do it. And then protein sparing modified fast, specifically as a five two, which is a little bit different than the original? Original one? So speaking of like, learning about what's going on with ourselves, right? I don't know if you are aware of this. But last year, I did a rapid fat loss protocol myself, and I recruited a bunch of people from my community to experiment with me, but two crazies who are like, Yeah, that sounds easy. And we did something inspired by Dr. Bill Campbell, who's a well known researcher, obviously, with aggressive dieting down at University of South Florida. And it was, it's pretty simple. It's four days in a very aggressive deficit, something like 40 45%, a low maintenance, and then a one day refeed, where you bring the carbs back up to maintenance, and then you repeat it once or twice. So if you do it twice, it ends up being about two weeks. And for a guy like me, 181 90, I might, I might lose like four pounds of fat doing it that way. The idea being that you keep the protein really high, at least one gram per pound, if not 1.2, or even a little bit higher. You keep training hard, and you're good to go. My thoughts on it are like any dieting approach, the more aggressive you go, the shorter the duration, right? Otherwise, you risk losing muscle. Also, I would put a bunch of caveats on this one, because people are like, you know, I'll have somebody reach me and say, I've got 20 pounds of weight to lose. I've never done any of this stuff. Should I do your Rapid Fat Loss Program? I'm like, no, no. Hey, let's get everything dialed in like you would before a fat loss phase anyway, but even more dialed in terms of your training, you're tracking your protein, like, keep it keeping the stress down all that good stuff in a good place, quiet time of the year, and then go after it really hard, and be consistent with that protein and making happen. And then yeah, you can lop off a couple pounds. If you have a lot of weight to lose, it's probably not the best approach from an adherence perspective anyway, because it's short. And now you're like, Well, what do I do after that? Do I just taper it down to a less aggressive cut? Maybe, but now you've already experienced like, all this adaptation and psychological pressure early on, you're not going to feel great? Or do you just punctuate building phases with this, or if you've already lost a bunch of weight, and you're fairly lean, use this occasionally. That's my thought on doing it in general. And then as far as repeating it, I wouldn't do it more than I wouldn't do it until you've come back to maintenance and fully recovered, and then do it again. But again, you shouldn't be doing them back to back the five to protein sparing modified fast from what I understand. And you may have a different kind of history on this, Jeff is the original diet was eat whatever you want for five days, and then have like, I don't know, 600 calories of protein for two days. And it's just another form of fasting, it's just another form of restriction that technically doesn't require you to track but at the end of the day, you could you could easily not lose weight, if you're just overeating on those five days, right? Like any other fast, it sounds miserable to me, but I get why you would want to do it, especially if you combine it with tracking. And now you're at maintenance for those five days. And then you go into the fast for two days. I know Brandon is doing something like that. So for the general population trying to lose weight, which was the question, I would say, do what works for you, and try traditional tracking and traditional, like, even if you want to cycle the calories, that's fine, but don't try to do anything too extreme? Because that could be what got you in trouble in the first place? I don't know. And I'll let you fill in the gaps. Because I know there's a lot of nuance to this one.

Jeff Hoehn  06:56

Yeah, I mean, this was something that I had seen the five two diet there with that. And after talking to Brandon, you know, I do think that there is some potential benefits of it. I was kind of thinking like, you know, from a lean body mass perspective, I could see how this could be beneficial. Because if you're doing those five days, which ideally, I'm assuming, we would ideally want you to be at probably close to maintenance, right? Like you said, you don't want to obviously overdo it. But the issue becomes like, Are you tracking during that? And if you don't track then do you end up kind of getting into a large surplus, right. But you know, if you're tracking and you're closer to your estimate of maintenance during that period of time, I really think that it could be great from a lean body mass perspective, just because you are going to be having so much time where you're giving your body plenty of energy, right. And then almost days that you're not, you're getting enough protein and and like you said, it's important that you lift weights in that process. So I could see how that could be beneficial from a lean body mass perspective. But I think you hit on this on both of these, it kind of comes down to the to me the challenge is the mental side of things, right? Like, is that something that you can stick to? And like you said, Does it just lead you to kind of this kind of yo yo approach, right? That would be something that I want to look out for, like, look out for the hunger on those really lower days, see how you respond to that, because some people, they can do those, like really low days, and they're good to go. But some people do those low days, and they're just like, ravenously hungry. And then like you said, it just leads to them over consuming, right. So I would really say like, that would be one that I would if I was working with a client, you know, this would have to be someone that's like I they've died in the past. And I know that they don't like that's not going to be a potential issue there. Because I do think that like having those lower calorie days, like if you're a busy person, like having those lower calorie days, a couple days a week could be super helpful as well to you know, from that standpoint, that's just like, I mean, shoot, like, if you had a day job where you just do like a bunch of podcasts or like client check ins and stuff, man, it would be nice to not have to worry about like eating sometimes right on like, and you could lighten up with those days. But again, you run into those potential issues there with that. So like you said, I think it is really individual. And I would probably lean towards, like from a general pop standpoint, probably not doing that at least for your first couple fat loss phases. And then, you know, kind of seeing how you respond to maybe some lower calorie days and then potentially bring that in there with that. So that's kind of my thought on the five to what I would say on the rapid fat loss. This was something that, you know, I was before I kind of talked to Bill Campbell about this, I was kind of wondering, like, what can you actually expect from a fat loss perspective in like a short timeframe, right, I was kind of questioning, like, can you really expect anything from it. And so from his studies from from what I took from it is, you know, you can't actually, you know, lose a decent amount in a few days. But obviously, you have to be super rigid with it, right? Like you have to really stay on top of the deficit and like it just runs back to the same issues that we just talked about, from the five to perspective, you know, are you prone to potentially overeating there with that and then like you said, again, the more weight you lose, the less you can do that. Right? The duration needs to be a lot shorter and obviously I think what you can run into is that can kind of be addicting of like seeing it go down super quick and then being like, Oh, I'm just gonna keep doing this right. And so that would be my biggest concern. And like you said, obviously once you really start to push that Are you losing some lean body mass in that process, but I do think that it can be motivating to see kind of those quick results. I haven't read it yet. But there's a new study on reps. And they were talking about, what are some patterns that are going to show that somebody's going to lose weight and like actually stick within one of it was like, one of them, the big ones was like kind of seeing that weight loss right off the bat there with it right it can be it can be motivating to see that. So that would be kind of a pro there of taking a quicker approach. But like you said, again, if you have a lot of weight to lose, that's probably not the way that you want to go there. But I am a huge fan of something I've become a more a bigger fan of is having these approaches where it does have some built in either extended diet breaks or days where you are a little bit higher maintenance, because I do think from a lean body mass perspective, it can be helpful, but but also a mental and flexibility side of things. I think they can also be helpful. So kind of my thoughts are on that. I don't know if there's anything I left out or anything like that.

Philip Pape  10:52

No, I mean, you hit on the there's always trade offs between physiology and psychology, right. And in psychology is the big one people underestimate, because they see these beautiful plans written out on paper. And, you know, even we experienced that you go into a new phase, and you're like, here's my plan, you know, it's like, it's gonna happen exactly like that, and it never does. And you have to be prepared for that. I do love like, for a more advanced person, like, like you said, Brandon, with the five, two, if you kind of know how your body responds and what you can tolerate, and also what your level of discipline and adherence is going to be. It's great. Also, if you're coaching somebody, sometimes I almost don't call that person Gen pop, because they have this extra direct support to kind of adapt to it. And then you know, kind of when you're often your own Gen pop is is where that comes in. But um, yeah, no, it's good stuff, man. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn  11:35

no, I that's, that's a good point you bring up like having a coach to help you with it. Like having that like kind of extra set of eyes, man can really be super helpful. And that's a good point you bring up right, like, I would definitely feel more comfortable with that. I guess the last thing on this would be like either one of the things that you do, like, make sure you have some sort of game plan or plan afterwards. And again, this is where having a coach can be super helpful, because I think that's where you can really run into issues. I think, again, people can do these kind of short bursts of fat loss, but it's really comes down to what does that kind of period of time afterwards look like there with app? So

Philip Pape  12:06

yeah, man. So yeah, I think we answered the question there. We'll go on to the next one. That's good with you. Yeah. And that is for you, man. It's Do you think consuming more protein than what is recommended? Has any benefits? So

Jeff Hoehn  12:17

I'm assuming with this question, he means kind of that one gram ish per pound of body, we kind of like benefit there. Right?

Philip Pape  12:24

That's my guess. Beyond the normal our evidence base recommendation? Yeah. Yeah. So I

Jeff Hoehn  12:29

actually really liked this question. I had, like, a lot of thoughts that come. So I'm gonna go with some pros of it. And then I want to kind of go over some potential downsides of potentially going over that amount. So I think from a muscle building standpoint, right, so we're talking building muscle, I think once you get to that point eight to one gram per pound of body weight, maybe 1.2. I think if you go over that, you're not gonna see any more return on your investment from a muscle building standpoint, right. And again, this is under the assumption that you're you're training hard and pushing your training, right, because that's obviously the thing that's going to send that signal and then protein kind of completes that process, right. So I think from a muscle building standpoint, I don't think that you're going to get any more benefit from going too far over 1.2. Again, if you're really trying to maximize and trying to build as much muscle as possible, maybe you could, you might want to be on the safer side, and you could potentially go a little bit higher, but from my understanding of the research, you know, you're going to kind of Max us out at point eight to one gram per pound of body weight there. However, I do think there's some other benefits of potentially going higher than this one gram per pound of body weight. And again, that's a number we'll we'll kind of go for here. And I think the first one is satiety protein, in general is more satiating than other sources of you know, again, carbohydrates and fats. But I do think within that it does depend on your protein source, right? If you're eating 150 grams of protein through like protein powder, well, I do think that's going to bump that down a little bit, right. So I think your food selection for protein is super important. But generally speaking, protein is going to be more satiating than carbohydrates or fats, right. So I think that's the big one there. So if you're in a fat loss phase, you know, maybe you go over that one gram, 1.2 grams per pound of body weight to get a little bit more satiety out of it, the second benefit would be higher thermic effect of food. So protein uses the most energy to absorb and digest again, generally speaking here, so you could get a small benefit there from that, I think Jose Antonio had a bunch of studies where they did these like massive amounts of like protein, like I'm thinking we're talking like, three great, I don't know the exact numbers, but it was, it would be more than most people could actually do. And, you know, they found it actually did help with like, it was harder for them to gain body fat, right, because they had these higher protein amounts, but again, we're talking super high levels most I would not recommend that to anyone, I'm there with that. So again, a higher thermic effect of food, you could burn a little bit more calories, but it's just gonna be a small amount. Again, to be on the safe side from the muscle building standpoint, like again, if you really want to maximize it, you're a little worried about it, maybe you go a little bit higher than that. Again, the research kind of shows that it does max out on that around that one gram, and therefore to me you like it, like if you really like protein, and you enjoy those types of foods, by all means, you know, you can go higher than than this number. But with all these pros, there is some downsides I think to going over one gram per pound of body weight. So the first is you know, carbs fat and protein makeup calorie so at some point there has To be this give and take, if you're eating so such high protein, you know, this could take away from carbs and fats, right, your carbs could get super low, now it's going to impact your training, it's going to impact your recovery, right? Fat, same thing, you know those good to low. You know, fats are important from like a hormone standpoint. And we need, you know, a certain amount of essential fatty acids. So again, that can lower those things. If you're eating too high protein, I think to protein can for some people be harder to digest, you know, you may have when you get to these super high levels of protein, you may find that it kind of sits in your stomach, it's just a little bit harder to digest, right. So again, that would be a potential downside. And then, and then lastly, I think once you get over one gram 1.2, it's just tough to do and your diet is probably going to be a little less tasty overall, right? Because that means less carbs, and fats. But again, that could potentially be a good thing here on that. So I think, to kind of wrap this up, I think if you're in a fat loss phase, maybe you go a little above warrant, one gram per pound of body weight, if you're in a building phase, and you like protein, you find that you really don't want to gain, you want to limit fat gain, maybe you go a little bit higher protein, right. But again, from a muscle building standpoint, I think things get kind of maxed out around that point eight to one gram per pound of body weight gives you want to be on the safer side, and maybe go a little bit higher than that.

Philip Pape  16:08

Yeah, man might drop, you answered everything about that question. No, I don't want to I don't wanna make it too long, because you've covered like most of the points that I was going to mention, if they didn't come up, as far as the curve of when protein intake kind of maxes out, we know that there's a point of diminishing returns, and like you said, point eight, even point seven, I mean, the more they look at this, the more it's kind of angles down a little bit toward that point seven, where, you know, there's almost no benefits going to be of that, above that from a practical standpoint. So to the person asking the question, my question back to them is, why are you asking the question? Is it because you have a high protein diet that's much higher, in which case, I've had plenty of clients like that. Usually, they're bigger guys consuming Well, north of 3000 calories. And they're like, I love my meat, or I used to do carnivore or something like that. And it all works fine, because they have plenty of calories to work with fats and carbs aren't really being sacrificed, you know, what's the difference between 350 and four and 50 grams of carbs, right? So in that case, just keep eating the way you're eating, if you enjoy, and it works for you. And that's the second piece of this is, is it working for you? And do you want to experiment? Because if you're wondering if you're currently at the point eight, and you're like, what would happen to me if I'm at 1.2 1.3, especially during fat loss, that's where I see some benefit with some of this stuff, like you said satiety body composition, another Bill Campbell research, I think, I know he reviewed it about the impact of protein on body composition, even beyond what we already thought, just do it before and after and see how it works. Other than that, everything Jeff just said makes sense. There's no benefit intentionally of increasing your protein beyond the normal point seven to one gram per pound,

Jeff Hoehn  17:40

I think to like on that one thing that they kind of hit and I was kind of struck a chord with a few not struck a chord, this this resonated with few clients was like, people like, are super worried about getting enough protein one, I think, again, make sure your weight training is there, right? Because at the end of the day, like if that's not there, it's like protein, it isn't going to do anything if if you're not sending that signal to build muscle. So that's the first thing. Second is, you know, you're going from point three grams per pound of body weight 2.6 is that's going to have a massive impact on your like, the results you're going to see. But if you're going from like weight 7.8 to one gram, the return on that investment is going to be a little bit smaller. Right? So we need to think of it from from that standpoint, as well to like, where are you going from again, if you're one gram, and you're like, Oh, I really want to maximize to 1.2. It's like, again, the return on that investment is going to be a lot lower than if you were like, super low. And I think sometimes people you know, kind of overlook that, you know, when it comes to nutrition stuff and everything. They're always like, what's the most optimal? And so keep that in mind too. On there with that. Yep,

Philip Pape  18:38

totally agree on nothing to add to that.

Jeff Hoehn  18:40

So with with the protein, if you kind of like I guess the one thing that kind of changed my mind on it, too, was this kind of recent study where it was, you know, they they I think they had upwards of like, 100 grams, I think after, and they, their NPS, muscle protein synthesis was still elevate it, you know, hours after I kind of changed my mind a little bit on timing. I don't know if that changed it for you or anything that made me like, it's still important to me, but it made it maybe a little bit lower on the on the priority list. I don't know what your thoughts are on that. Yeah,

Philip Pape  19:07

if anything, it's not symmetrical anymore, meaning I used to recommend kind of a minimum but also make sure you distribute enough now I say like at least try to get the minimum in one meal. But there's not really an upper limit if you want to do it twice or three times in a day. Otherwise, it's a matter of practicality.

Jeff Hoehn  19:24

Yep. Right that that again, I feel like a lot of this stuff, man, as I learned more comes down to what's it what's really the practicality of it? So yeah, for sure. Cool. If you're good on on that one. I think we're good man. Awesome. So I'm a postmenopausal woman who has struggled with under eating for years due to a slow metabolism. Despite increasing my calorie intake, exercising regularly and having a high protein diet. I'm not seeing much progress on the scale, although I'm losing inches. How can I effectively lose fat and reveal muscle definition? Considering my unique circumstances and history?

Philip Pape  19:54

This is such a loaded question. I'm sure when you saw it, you thought the same thing. And I know you recently did an episode about It's probably not your hormones, right? It was something like that it's probably not your hormones. There's so much in here that I would want to first address before I even answer the question. For the person listening or really any women listening who are thinking these thoughts. The first one is the statement that I've been struggling with underwriting for years due to a slow metabolism. There's an assumption there that your metabolisms, quote unquote, slow. And it could just be, you know, in an adapted state, because you've been under eating. Okay, fair enough. Maybe you haven't been training, maybe you haven't been preserving muscle, whatever, you know, we don't want to assume your metabolism slow it is what it is. And we'd want to do what's necessary to recover and and see where it's the current setpoint is for that. But then she said, despite increasing calories, exercising regularly and having a high protein diet, so Okay, those are good things, right, like getting enough energy, exercising, I'm hoping she means training, we don't know for sure. And then having a high protein diet, I'm not seeing much progress on the scale, but I'm losing inches right there. I'd say that's a win. Like, that's a huge one right there to where, okay, why are we obsessed with the scale? What is it in your history or relationship with scale weight that causes you to think that this is a problem, right? I'm losing inches? And then she said, How can I effectively lose fat and reveal my muscle? Consider my unique circumstances in history? And so again, I would say, I mean, we're all unique, but we're also not unique, right? Like, you know, we all lose muscle mass with age, if we don't train, you know, for women hormones tend to decline or impaired post menopause, but lifestyle changes can massively mitigate those. So I do want to acknowledge the challenges that this person and all women face, we had a similar question like this in our last q&a, and you know, we're under eating for a long time, that definitely slows things down. But we don't want to attribute changes to menopause itself, necessarily, or fat storage or anything like that. The fact that you're losing inches, you're training, you know, you got protein already tells me you're doing a lot of the right things, right. So acknowledge that from a mindset perspective, that that's a huge win. And you're experiencing some sort of body recomp. Right. And again, just begun, body recomp. Here, if the scale staying the same, and your interests are going down, and you're getting stronger, that's all good. So I mean, really, to simplify it here is to keep progressing. It's finding the right, you know, approach for you. In terms of, if you want to have fat loss, let's let's find a moderate rate of loss. Let's make sure we're tracking, let's make sure like in the last question, you're getting at least that reasonable amount of protein, and then be patient and consistent as we work on that. And if the goal at the end of the day is to get a lower scale, wait, I would want to rewind and say what is your true reason here? What is your value based reason for this? It's okay to have short term motivations, physique, motivations, looking good in the mirror. I do that every day with clients and like, but that only take you you know, from here to here, how do we how do we make this a lifestyle for a life that works for you? So yeah, I mean, the basics, Jeff, are going to be what we recommend to everybody. Besides then getting bloodwork and things like that check if we do think there's some sort of hormonal issue. So I'll set it up that way. I'll let you go. And then we'll back and forth on this. Yeah, man. No,

Jeff Hoehn  22:56

you definitely nailed that. Right. I actually just did a q&a episode from a question I had somebody asked about fast and slow metabolism. So I dove into that. So definitely would lead people to that episode, I think it should be out like June 10. Ish, maybe something like that. But yeah, people, you know, like you said, we all kind of think we have a slow metabolism. But I think a lot of times, it is kind of the things that we're doing that actually lead to that, right. And again, maybe yours is a little bit slower, and whatnot. But again, I always like to look at like, what are you actually doing? You know, and usually, you know, if you look this over, it's like, okay, well, you can obviously improve this, you can improve that right, you know, before saying you actually have a slow metabolism. So I agree with you there on that. And like you said, we don't want to think that this is any special circumstance or anything like that, like all women go through menopause during that period of time, right? And then like you said, this is why we're coaches, right? Like people have these these issues all the time where they they they don't, they aren't seeing the results that they think they should so kind of like you said, you know, we obviously want to respect that like, hey, you know, every, everyone is unique and has different circumstances. But you know, these are pretty common things. Right. And usually, we think that it's just something with us, and then with that, but I had a few things I wanted to go over. So, you know, like, again, are you are you tracking the right metrics? Because kind of like you said, there, it's like not seeing progress on a scale, but you're losing inches. So it's like, to me, again, what's like you said with the scale? Like, do we really need to just focus on that, like, if you're losing inches, especially in your midsection, that's like you said, you're seeing progress. So is it more like, are you more concerned with weight? Are you more concerned with like, the aesthetic side of things? Because that's obviously going to be, you know, something you'd want to look into? There's that most people they don't, they end up not caring as much about the skills they think, right? But I also like, you know, within tracking the right metrics, are you you know, are you tracking your weight the correct way as well to you know, I'm sure you see this where people say they're not dropping weight, but then you look and you're like, your average weight literally is trending down and week over week, what are you talking about, but they get too caught up and like, one day, it's lower, and then it's a little bit higher, but again, they don't look at the trends. So, you know, make sure you're tracking the right metrics. It's easy to think you're not going in the right direction. I also find that a lot of times in this situation, people aren't tracking as much as they could, right. It's like, well, I'm eating I'm eating healthier. I'm making and better choices and scales not moving. But then again, they're not tracking consistently with the scale, they're not tracking, you know. So get make sure you're doing that. I would imagine if they asked you this question, they probably track their calories and stuff like that. But I also would want to know, like, what's your like? What's the diet dieting history as well, too, you know, like you said, you increase your caloric intake. But how long did you do that? What did you get it to? You know, what happened during that period of time? What, what is your current body weight? Because I think also that goes into expectations. You know, if you're 115 pounds, you know, we kind of need to reframe those expectations, versus if you're, you know, 175, like that weight loss is going to look a little bit different. So what's your current body weight? You know, what is your exercise look like? Because like you said, you know, we hope hopefully, you're, you're lifting weights. But are you consistent with that. So those would be things that I would kind of check there with that, but just some other things like to potentially look out for, like Phillip said, Lift, you know, protein, I think for this, demographics, especially, I think making sure that you don't go too long without protein after your workout. This is a kind of demographic, I think protein timing is maybe a little bit more important. So if you exercise, you make sure you're getting protein. You know, if you especially if you go in fast it you're getting it relatively soon after sleep is going to be another big one for this, Adrienne, because, you know, menopause can sometimes lead to lower quality sleep, you know, people waking up in the middle night, hot flashes, stuff like that. So I think there's a lot of things that people overlook when it comes to sleep. This isn't gonna asleep question, but man, we could probably dive into that as a whole topic in terms of some like low hanging fruit sleep hygiene tips there. But again, making sure you know, sleep is good, right? You're, you're prioritizing it, that's going to be a big one, that's really going to make things a lot tougher, you're doing the right thing here. But make sure you are taking some time away from fat loss dieting, to fuel your body, we're not just increasing calories for the sake of increasing the goal is to feel your body, you know, make sure you give it the nutrients and calories you need. And again, make sure you're doing that for a good amount of time, right? You're doing it for two weeks, and then you know, kind of just winging it, that's not going to be enough. Like you really do want to kind of stick that a little bit longer. I also wondered, I think you kind of mentioned this to like, could you have some maybe better fat loss methods? Like, are you trying to lose super quick? Like, can you could you improve that aspect of it like making sure you get enough protein, you're using more at a moderate rate versus feeling like you need to get off two pounds per week, right? With that. And then yeah, those those would be kind of the main ones that I would look at, in this specific example here with that, actually, sorry, there was one more thing I wanted to go over here on this, I want to go over some like potential supplements that I see that this kind of demographic misses out on get we know supplements are lower on the priority list, these things here are going to be your most important but a few that I see that are important for this demographic is vitamin D, make sure you're at least taking a nice maintenance dosage, you know, you can look at your bloodwork to see where that's at fish oils, another big one, I like legions, fish oil has the right amount of EPA and DHA there with that magnesium glycinate could be a good one, especially if you're waking up with hot flashes, Glycine can be helpful. So magnesium glycinate, and then creatine, and this is the demographic that kind of shiz away from creatine because it's kind of known as like a kind of like steroids. Oh, they're gonna make me super bulky. But for this demographic, I think creatine is super important, maybe more so than, you know, say, your 25 year old male who's trying to build muscle. So just some things there for you to focus on potentially, yeah,

Philip Pape  28:05

no, I mean, it's really the, you know, fat loss one on one episode, like, we just need to give that to most most women, regardless of the hormone state, and that'll get you most of the way there. But I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag on this, I eventually message back with this person. And one thing you mentioned was, is she actually potentially losing weight and look like she was very, very slowly trending downward in reality. And also, she wasn't really tracking in an effective way that linked her intake to her metabolism. So she's doing that now. I just want to I didn't want to bias the discussion. But you know, it's those kinds of things that are the basics. And then yeah, I love I love the idea of supplements and nutrients. I'm really getting a lot more into micronutrients these days, yes, especially for women with like thyroid issues and whatnot, you know, just even from a food perspective of trying to hunt, hunt around and figure out which foods give you these nutrients, because you may just be neglecting an entire nutrient like Selenium. Right? or what have you. The sleeping stress, I totally didn't even mention that. But like you said, that could actually be the deal breaker for a lot of women at that age with the life stress, the obligations, the kids and all of that. But yeah, I mean, it's checking all the boxes, and then going into a reasonable rate of loss, not overdoing it. If your metabolism is kind of lower. Now, because you haven't built a lot of muscle mass yet, you're not gonna be able to go in this huge deficit, because you're gonna be eating just like 800 calories. So you're gonna have to be patient and kind of go down a little bit and then continue to build that muscle which this person said she's already getting body recomp. So like, I think it's a great start.

Jeff Hoehn  29:26

There's two things that you said there that I want to point out. The first is the micronutrients. So with that, you know, and this is where like being low calorie can catch up to you is you know, you're you're more likely to have holes in that right so this is where again, this is why I said like, time away from fat loss time to fuel your body and this is exactly why because the higher you're not like you need to eat 4000 calories and gain a ton of weight. But you know, the more calories you have, the more you can, you know, kind of fill those holes there with with that, and then on the slow sort of weight loss side of things. I know we just talked about rapid fat loss, but again, we kind of talked how that's like a certain demographic that will really work well with you know, with kind To my content, like I've tried to reframe this lower weight, especially for this demographic, this soul weight loss is almost a pro because if anything, you're, and this is probably gonna go into our next question here, but you're kind of putting yourself in a decent, really good position to maintain it even potentially build some muscle in this process. And, again, that's the, for this demographic specifically, that's going to be super helpful for your long term health. Right. Um, because, again, I feel like a lot of people in this demographic, they really just focus on the weight loss side of things. And that leads to them doing things that lead to lean body mass loss. And we already talked about the importance of that and not to mention bone health and everything like that. So I think if anything, kind of reframing that, for this specific example, where you said she actually was trending down, even though it was slower, I would say that honestly, is perfect. And that is kind of what I would that's kind of what I would be wanting to go for anyways here because I think you're gonna put yourself in the best position long term with that. So yeah,

Philip Pape  30:49

as with it is within that like cone of body recap, like we think about a recomp it's just maintenance. But can you talk about this all the time, you can recomp at different levels of surplus or deficit, and even considered over the long term. So, yeah, good. Keep it up. Whoever sent in the question, you know, like a lot of good things going for you and let us know, you know, one or two things that you decide to change based on this conversation. Just understand

Jeff Hoehn  31:09

that, hey, we know this is a challenging time to like, it's not to just like brush out under the rug and be like, Oh, it's super easy. You just got to do everything. You know, we understand, hey, this is a challenging time. And, you know, there things are a little bit different now. So you do need to work with your body. So you definitely don't want to underestimate the impact of that. So,

Philip Pape  31:25

yeah, we're a blend of tough love and real love going on here. Like we get it. You know, we're not the we're not the 20 year old even though Jeff's 10 years younger than me. He's not a 20 year old guy with a lot of experience.

Jeff Hoehn  31:38

Okay, just work harder. Come on. I don't care if you have three kids, and you're in menopause just frickin work harder. Exactly.

Philip Pape  31:43

Yeah, seven days a week. All right.

31:46

Hi, my name is Alan. And I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of wits and weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Phillip works tirelessly, and with dedication to provide coaching support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research. And Phillip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Phillip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, Philip Pape is the real deal. He knows how to assess and direct nutrition. And he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, Phil.

Philip Pape  32:38

All right. I'll ask you the next question. We're ready to move on. Yep. All right. So classic question, How feasible is it to build muscle in a deficit?

Jeff Hoehn  32:46

This is right up my alley African love this one. So my big thing with this is, I'll still get kind of like messages. And like when I'll talk about this to people being like, oh, you know, it's typically the same kind of type of person, right? Usually somebody who has a lot of muscle and they are like, kind of bodybuilder, right? It's like, No, there's no way you can build muscle in a deficit, you know, if anything, you're lucky to maintain anything and whatnot. And so I hear that, and it's like, okay, yes, you are right. And but in certain situations, right, we need to we need to go a layer deeper than this. And it's really depends on the individual context. Yes, in that specific person. example, let's say you're a bodybuilder. You're, you're super shredded. You have a lot of muscle. Yeah, for you, you know, you're not gonna be able to build muscle in the deficit. But what you know, Phillip, I don't know about you. But yeah, maybe for us, it seems like that's a little bit bigger for the population. But in general, how big of the population? Is that? Honestly, like, if you were to take the entire

Philip Pape  33:34

world? Like, yeah, like 5%, right? or less?

Jeff Hoehn  33:38

I would say even less like out of the entire population, I would say it's 99.9% of people are not that person, right? If we take the entire population, now we get into, like, people who work out, okay, it starts to Oh, I

Philip Pape  33:47

see what you're saying. Yeah. Because if you take just the percentage of people even do anything we talked about here, you're already down to like 5%. So fair point.

Jeff Hoehn  33:53

So if you see one of the people that that we're probably talking to, okay, it's probably closer, like you said, 5% or so. But anyway, so 5% and 5%. Exit, right? You know, I think that we need to be careful with saying that because it leads to people thinking that it's them, and we need to dive in a little bit more to it. Right. So again, it is very individual. So I would kind of want to go over specific scenarios here, right? And things that are going to matter here. So can you build muscle in a deficit? So this is going to depend on your current body composition, okay? If you're somebody who has a ton of muscle, really low levels of body fat, you're not going to be able to build muscle in a deficit, right? Like, but in saying that it also is dependent on the size of the deficit. Okay, so the size of the deficit is going to matter. So people kind of think of a calorie deficit, as you know, oh, it's just a calorie deficit. Well, you know, there's a size to this deficit, right, the larger the deficit is, so the quicker you lose weight, the less likely this is to happen, right? You're not putting your body in the best position to build muscle. So you take somebody who's super shredded, has a lot of muscle and you put them in a large deficit will, you know for them, they're going to have to really do everything to maintain their muscle, they may even lose muscle in that process. But even that person they just talked about during the smaller calorie deficit, they're still probably not going to be able to build muscle but now Do you take somebody who is over, let's say, for men over 15% body fat, decent amount of muscle, women, let's say 25% body fat, decent amount of muscle for them, they're going to be able to build some muscle in the deficit, so long as all the things we talked about are in check. And that deficit is not too large, because even within that particular person, the larger that deficit gets, the less likely this is to happen, right. So again, we need to look at like training history, but that's gonna go into how much muscle you have other factors outside of the gym. So obviously, the less these are dialed in, the worse sleep is, the higher your stress is, the worse your diet quality is, the lower the likelihood of this is going to happen in a deficit, right? So we need to look at that, again, what your training looks like, if your training isn't super specific to building muscle. Again, this is going to be tougher, right? If you're somebody who does like a ton of group classes, maybe your training is geared more towards, like powerlifting style, I think you're going to have a tougher time building muscle and a deficit, right. But you know, somebody who's had a long layoff and coming back from an injury like you, the likelihood of this happening is going to be a little bit higher than so that's kind of my like, how feasible that is. Now, what I want to talk about here is, again, people hear this and they think, Okay, well, so I can build muscle and deficit now being in a deficit, no matter what is still going to be less, there's going to be inferior to being at maintenance for building muscle. Okay, no, wait, no way you put it right. Even if you're this perfect person that I talked about, like you're perfect for recon, you can build muscle and deficit, it's still you're gonna probably see a little less muscle in a deficit compared to maintenance. But even from there, you go to maintenance, right, you can still build a decent amount of muscle maintenance. But even then, like, if you're at a surplus is still going to be even a little bit better for building muscle. Right. So it's kind of on the stepladder here. So you really just need to decide like, if you're someone who's going to try to maximize muscle as much as possible, well, at some point, you're probably going to have to be in a calorie surplus, I don't think you need to go into that right away. But at some point, you're going to need to be in a in a calorie surplus there if that. So I kind of like to look at these as levels to and understand that again, you know, if you're someone who can build muscle and deficit, the longer you do that, the likelihood of it the the amount of muscle you're gonna see is going to trend down over time there. So I think I kind of hit on everything I wanted to there. I don't know if there was any follow ups or things you wanted to add? Yeah,

Philip Pape  37:08

no, that's a great foundation. I agree with all of that. I think the research has looked at various deficits. And I think 500 calories has been that limit of being a calorie deficit, where we start to see muscle loss in most populations, regardless, even even untrained. And I know they've done studies with trained lifters who have like three, four or five years of experience, on short durations, you know, these studies usually like six or eight weeks long, with a calorie deficit, and they still see muscle gain. So we know it can happen. And like you said, you're not the special snowflake, I shouldn't use that term that can be triggering, but like, super advanced train, like, yeah, they're not that many people in that that realm. There are a couple other demographics. I don't know if you mentioned them, one, one is of somebody who has excessive weight to lose. So I've had clients who are usually male clients are like 262 75, nine, and they want to get down to close to that 200 mark, and their body has so much fat storage, that that is like putting them in a surplus while they're in a deficit. Yep. And so they build a ton of muscle has their recopying. And everything's actually kind of smooth. If you've got it set it up, right, for a lot of a lot of people, especially especially males that I've worked with. The other situation is if you're D trained, right, again, I've seen that as well, some guy that did what I didn't do when I was a teenager in my 20s and actually worked out and hit the weights because I didn't do I didn't know this stuff until my late 30s. And they you know, they showed me pictures of how they were jacked when they were 22. And now they're the dad bod and you know, overweight and they're like I ride my bike. That's all I do. Okay, let's get you back lifting weights and then all of a sudden, their bodies like it just like sucks up the protein and just pack some muscle back on. And and there's a biological reason for that having to do with like satellite cells and neurons and stuff having already been built or developed and grown when you're earlier and they're always there waiting to get bigger again. So that population can probably hack their way to you know, somebody recomp and then i The one thing I want to ask you about Jeff is you said powerlifting style, I'm assuming you meaning during fat loss if you use in powerlifting style, because there's not very much volume or stimulus compared to like a bodybuilding style. And I wonder if you could explain that a little bit because my understanding is pretty much any auto regulated form of training where you can train hard close to failure, with sufficient volume is gonna give you what you need. Is the premise here that you're doing like squats once a week for one RMS and no back offs and no other volume, no accessory work that kind of stuff. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn  39:27

pretty much yeah, like you're just doing like the main lifts you're literally just working in like the like one to three rep range, right? Again, is that gonna like again, I don't people will say this is the same thing as like the maintenance like building muscle and maintenance. It's like okay, that doesn't mean you're not going to build any muscle but like say you're in a deficit and like you know, you're trying to build muscle lose body fat the same time, you're just going to be it's not going to be as specific to building muscle is I would like it to be but again, if you're okay with that trade off, like understanding Hey, I'm probably gonna leave a little bit of muscle growth on the table for this. Okay, you know, it is what it is right? It just comes down to trade offs. So yes, it's just It comes down to the specificity of of the training, right that like you said, it's just not enough, it's gonna end up not being enough volume, you know that one to three rep range isn't necessarily the greatest for building muscle. It's a, you know, in in whatnot. So that's really what it comes down to. This is what I this is kind of something that I've changed my mind on, because I've always kind of talked about like, well, you need to have your training specific hypertrophy. And what I tell people is you probably want to have like, if you're really trying to maximize body recomp, and again, trying to build some muscle in the deficit, if you're under the circumstance, situation, or situations is, I would say you want at least 50% of your training to be geared towards hypertrophy. Right? So if you want to do with a thing, where it's like a power building style, again, is that going to be the most effective? From a muscle building standpoint? No, but it's still going to be good enough to build muscle, right, so long as 50% of its hypertrophy, you like to do group classes, again, maybe 50% of its group classes, but I want at least 50% at training to be geared towards, you know, building muscle there with that,

Philip Pape  40:55

I can attest, I can attest to that. I totally agree. That's why I wanted to clarify for the listeners, so they knew what you meant, because at least a lot of people I know who do the power building style, or they do West Side style or whatever. They do their main lifts, and they might be auto regulating like back offs and stuff like that. But then they're also adding all this. What did they call it? In West Side? The extra accessory work, man, I'm losing the losing the phrase what it's called? Not the accommodating resistance, but when you just repetition work, I don't know. But there's that. And then also, what was the other thing I was gonna say I'm losing my mind. Oh, yeah. Like, I've also seen like basic barbell type training work during fat loss, if if it's like set progression. So for example, we talked about increasing weights or reps at for progressive overload. And we rarely talk about adding sets. But there are some, you know, modulating programs where you start like, three sets, then four, then five, and six, and you actually end up being able to push that volume during fat loss while you're not really able to get stronger. But as a result, you're getting the stimulus. And if you're in this, like sweet spot deficit for recomp, you might get it under those scenarios, as well. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn  41:59

yep. No, 100%. Man, no, that's, and like you said, the population you talked about, like, that's the perfect scenario where it's like, they're like, Well, you know, do I need to gain muscle? You know, I don't want to gain weight right now. Because I want to lose, but it's like, you're literally the higher your body fat is, like you said, the higher the likelihood is of a recap, because that's like stored energy. And on the flip side, real quick, I want to hit on this too. On the on the flip side, I think the other where I see this also kind of get where there's kind of thought process of like, Oh, hey, you have to be in a surplus, or hey, you have to be in a, you know, these kinds of things. And that kind of diving layer deeper. When it comes to a surplus where I see this kind of misapplied is somebody that you said there that, you know, maybe is like, say 15 20%, or higher and body fat for women 25 30% or higher, and they they feel like they can't build muscle, like they have to, like, Well, I'm not gonna go into building phase or I got to do fat loss until I drop all this weight is, you know, then they are they go into it, and they try to get in a surplus, they think that they need to start plus, well, now they start to gain a little bit more body fat than they need. And then it's like, well, these these phases don't work. Right. I just I didn't see any of that. But it's because you went into a surplus when you probably had some wiggle room here to be at maintenance or like in a small deficit or in deficit before going into that. So it's kind of like the flip side of that on there with apps? Oh, yeah, yeah, no,

Philip Pape  43:14

I think we covered it, it's possible, it's possible for a lot of people, and you just have to make the trade offs that you want to make, if you want all out muscle, probably don't want to be, you know, dicking around in these, like subtle phases just go after one direction or another. And that's my opinion. At some point. Yeah, no, but but then there's the lifestyle and the psychology, you know, it all comes into play. And it's like, if it's a woman who's 45, she's not happy with her body. And I'm like, I'm not going to tell her to sit around and like, continue to add weight or gain fat, let's just, you know, make that little bit of a trade off. So we get you some quick wins, like we talked about before, but then long term, I'll get you more convinced into like building. I

Jeff Hoehn  43:49

like your that's a that's actually a great way to put it. dicking around. That's honestly, I need to start using that a little bit more.

Philip Pape  43:55

Is that like an old guy term? I don't know.

Jeff Hoehn  43:58

I just never, I just never thought about saying it that way before where like, if you're, you know, trying to lose body fat build muscle the same time for too long. That's basically what you're doing. You're just kind of dicking around at that point. So I love that I need to start using that more.

Philip Pape  44:11

All right. All right. So speaking of old guys, actually, I think you're asking me this. I'll pull up the caption here.

Jeff Hoehn  44:16

Yep. heavier weight or more reps for an older guy looking to build a base for longevity.

Philip Pape  44:20

For longevity? Yeah, what are the longevity experts here right now? Yep. The answer is yes. No. Yes, train and you're good. So interestingly, I just recorded an episode for over 50 Guys, and it was in response to a follower who said, Hey, you should cover this stuff. And I had just recently listened to an episode of RP Right with Dr. Dre telling he was talking about old guys as well. And my thoughts on this are like, if you're asking the question, maybe you already have a little bit of experience training and you're just trying to kind of optimize your programming. I think the power building style like you mentioned before, something like where you have the big lifts, you have something That's focus on function and strength, like specifically strength, which is tends to be down in the heavier rep range is super, super helpful for older folks. And sometimes people people are, it's counterintuitive, like older folks say, Well, no, my connective tissue, my joints, my knees, blah, blah, blah, it's too heavy. It's bad for recovery. I disagree. Like, I think compound lifts are what you want as when you're older. I've seen older folks who never lifted before in their 50s 60s 70s have tremendous improvement in their health and function. And guess what we need for longevity, we need to be able to, like get off the toilet, but also be able to move our body around, avoid, you know, breaking bones, when we we fall, falling is like the leading cause of death besides heart disease, you know, at that age, the all the things associate with metabolic disease are also tied to muscle and strength. So like, yes, in other words, like, I think you should have a little both, I think you should lift heavy. And I think you should also have fun with it and work on building muscle where it makes sense. And then principle of it for older individuals is the recovery aspect, right? Like, you probably need to ease into it a little bit, when you get started, you probably need more recovery time, you may need to stretch some parts of your body that are like, you know, those are the wonky parts like guys, our shoulders, you know, our low back. And then don't be stupid, because you only have so much time like not till you die, but you only have so much time your body takes longer to recover. So like you don't want to get injured and then now spend months and months trying to come back from it always be behind. So I feel really strongly about it. Because I have parents and I have in laws and people that are that are older. And we got to stop making excuses. And I want to see this this generation, my generation become like the first generation that ages well, like ages into their 80s and 90s. That don't look like old people. We don't think of old people as like frail bent over weak, right? We are strong, we're independent, we're able to help other people. We're not like, you know, mooching off of health care, right, all that stuff. And I think that's the way to do it. So I know, I became very philosophical, Jeff, because I'm, like passionate about it. But the answer is yes. Both.

Jeff Hoehn  47:00

Yeah. No, I'm glad you took it for I'm glad you took it from that standpoint, because I'm going to take it from a little bit different. But I think you you make up you bring up great points, right, the recovery aspect of it a little bit slower at that point. And no, I think you, I like that you came at it from that angle? Because and I think this is the cool thing about us doing this is we kind of both come at it from from different. So like, basically my answer to you, though, or what your answer is? My short answer is yeah, I mean, like, why do we why would you need to choose one or the other? You know, I mean, like, that's kind of my thought. But I want again, as with most questions, I always kind of want to go a layer deeper. So I think it does, I did say depends on your goal. He said longevity? So but I would want it like what is that kind of look like? You know, again, is it straight? You know, like? So again, I think both is is there's that but but also, this is where I think people maybe miss out on from this is what's your preference? Like? What do you enjoy doing? You know, because at the end of the day, like we could sit you and I could sit here and we can talk about Well, hey, if you do this perfect combination of higher lower, you know, that's gonna be great. But also like, you just doing something is going to be better as you age as well to write to like, what is your preference to? And, you know, again, a lot of people I don't think are, I don't think they aren't as up to date on the research as we are with us. And we know that there can be a nice little range here that you can work with. So I think really, preference is a big one, right? Like, what's going to keep you staying consistent. And I think when it comes to strength hypertrophy, I feel like people ask these really nerdy questions, which I think are great, and it's fun to dive into it. But really what is going to keep you doing these things over extended periods of time. And if you buy us a little bit more towards heavier weight, and that feels good your current cover, you're seeing the results you want. Maybe you bias a little bit more to that if you are somebody you like more reps that feels better for you, you can recover from it, you're seeing the results you want to see, well, then maybe you buy us a little bit more of that on their fat. But from there, I also, again, I think this question needs to come at, like we need to look at a few more things. So exercise selection, what does that look like for you, you know what I mean? Like, you know, if you're doing some lateral raises or bicep curls will for you, I'm probably going to say hey, you probably want to go maybe a little bit higher reps. If you're doing back squats, you know, maybe you're gonna go a little bit lower reps versus doing you know, 15 reps on there if that so I think exercise selection is is key to what exercises are We are We specifically looking at here, I

Philip Pape  49:06

want to ask you about that. What about including exercises at all? Like what if this is the kind of person because I've seen them where it's like, they just want to do the isolation stuff. You know, what are your thoughts on that? Like? Yeah, should you have compound lifts? Or is this like what are your thoughts? Yeah, I'm, I'm pigeonholing you, man,

Jeff Hoehn  49:22

you're good. No, you're good. I love this. I mean I think preference again it's going to come down to preference right because I think you still do and more isolation stuff is gonna be better than you feel like you have to like you said kind of pigeonhole or put yourself into a box with it. So but I also feel like this comes down again to like, what do you consider compound right? Are we saying you do need to do like barbell stuff is are you counting leg presses a compound? You

Philip Pape  49:45

know what I mean? Like, sure, multi joint movements. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Jeff Hoehn  49:48

Yeah. You know, what does that kind of look like? Because I think sometimes that can get lumped into that more more isolation. You know, I would like to have if it was up to me, again, I would like to have somebody incorporate some, you know, things like Press squats, you know, those bigger lifts? Like I think that's a good base. But again, if it doesn't feel good for somebody, and they're more likely to want to stick to more isolation type stuff, leg extension leg curl, like, what would be a good isolated, I guess a laundry? I don't know. And they like doing that that's going to keep them going with it, then then that's the route, you know, we're going to go but I'd like to have a nice little Blend If it was ultimately up to me, you know, there with that. Did that answer your question there on that? Oh, yeah.

Philip Pape  50:25

No, I just put it out there. Because it depends on the context. Always Right. Like you said, if the alternative is not doing anything, and maybe for someone who's an older population today, that is the default right? Then then obviously, we want to take them from there to there to there. The other way we could approach the question is like, oh, this person already trains now they want the best out of it for longevity? What would that be? You know?

Jeff Hoehn  50:47

Yep, yep. And I think a good blend, for sure. But this also comes down to like, for example, I think it goes too far on the other end, where people try to, like you said pigeonhole them into like doing like, say, back squats or something, right, where they think they need to do these these, like compound barbell type lifts. And it's like, you know, we have some flexibility there. Right? So, you know, again, I think we could we could go too far on the other end. But another big thing here with this, too, is your execution and technique. I mean, what does that look like? You know, and I think that's going to be big, like, we need to make sure that's in a good spot before being like, what rep range do I need to work in? Or what's better for me, like, I think your execution and technique is, is super important in that process, as well. So I think, really, we need to come at it from like, stop looking at it from an either or I think both can work. What's your preference? What's your exercise selection? What do you like? What's your execution and technique? And then from there, what are your results? And are you happy with them? Are you not? And then and then from there, we evaluate and see, you know, can we make some some changes to that? But yeah, kind of my thoughts on that.

Philip Pape  51:46

Yeah. And I guess the other approach for longevity, because he also didn't, you know, longevity, could be I want to live a long life. But it could also be you can keep lifting for a long time, right? That's exactly that sort of the recovery. And I know from personal experience, and guys all the time, who just my shoulders a little sore, but I kept pushing and kept pushing, and bam, you know, the rotator cuff surgery or whatever. And now you're knocked out for six months to a year. So always keep those in mind of overall health overall function. And even when you're doing isolation work, you can, you can overdo it, if you're like constantly trained to absolute failure, and your volume is just tremendously high. And then you don't sleep like all of these compound plus diet, we didn't have to get it into nutrition, because he didn't ask about it. But of course, it supports all of this well. And

Jeff Hoehn  52:28

then and then in that specific example, this is where again, your execution and technique comes into, right. If you're you know, the more you do that with poor technique, the more that's going to, you know, so again, that's why I think it's important. And I don't know about you, but generally, I feel like when we go to these heavier, heavier weights, that's where you will start to see, especially for men, right, you start to see the ego take over a little bit. And that's where you do see execution and technique suffer a little bit. So you do want to be careful there with that that would be one kind of final thing with that. So

Philip Pape  52:57

And one final final thing, because we all have to get the last word going. Yep. Because you mentioned men, and I'm thinking women, a lot of women I've been I've gotten as clients, right, they, they tend to be doing the higher rep stuff anyway. And then they've explained it, they've said that they don't like going to the gym, or it's too much work or whatever. There's kind of a psychology to reps where everybody has a different sweet spot, right? And you could be working 20, RetinA 20 rep range for everything. And that could just be torture, like psychological torture for somebody. And all of a sudden, you know, you get somebody squatting, or RDL, or whatever, down in the five rep range or six rep range. And it's way lower than ever gotten like, This is amazing. I only have to, you know, each set is shorter, and I can always rest time. There's a big psychological aspect to it as well, that factors into sustainability and longevity to

Jeff Hoehn  53:44

this brings up one more thing.

Philip Pape  53:45

Yeah, let's

Jeff Hoehn  53:46

do what you have been doing, I think also should play a role in this right? I didn't even think of that. Right? Like if you are if you have found yourself to maybe bias one or the like one or the other. Maybe you need to get a little bit more of the other one in there. Right. So sorry, I just had I had to get the final word. Do you have the final final final word?

Philip Pape  54:05

No, that's yeah, I'm gonna go to the next question. I think we answered it. This is a fun little one about tracking in fat loss. So fat loss specifically, although it doesn't, I don't think it matters. Does counting veggies affect the macros and should I log them?

Jeff Hoehn  54:19

Yep. So 100% I mean, it's it's calories, right? veggies are gonna be calorie. So it will impact the macros, right? But I want to kind of, there's a lot of things that we can kind of uncover here with the width. So my thoughts on this, like, I'll have a lot of clients that you know, whether it maybe they're newer or again, maybe they're in a different phase where the on their checkout form, they'll be like, Well, hey, I'm having some, you know, my nutrition adherence was a three, I'm having a lot of like, either either meals out or hey, I had some like bites and licks and stuff like that. Well, my thought on this always is like, Well, where are your results at if things are trending in the right direction, and you know, I look at your food log and you're eating relatively well and maybe you're having some bites and licks or some tasty stuff from time to time and things are trending down in the right direction. It's like Let's keep going, like you're seeing the results you want. So why change it? So my thought on this is like, you know, if you're somebody that hasn't been tracking them, you're seeing things head in the right direction, you don't necessarily have to do it, right. Like, if you're really looking into your Mac micronutrients and stuff like that, like, you know, maybe like, obviously, veggies are going to be high on that. So maybe you do want to look at that, right. So that's kind of my thoughts on that. But then also, within that, you know, I feel like, it depends too on, you know, looking at it from the standpoint where like, veggies are going to, they're very nutrient dense, they don't have a lot of calories. So it's like, they're going to, they're going to count, but it's really hard to get a lot of calories in from veggies, right. So if you're like at a fat loss, but so and you're relatively early in the process, it's probably not because of your veggies, right, there's probably other things going on there. With that, where's like something like, let's just take peanut butter, I'm not in any calorie dense food, right chips, let's take chips, it's like, yeah, you're off by a serving size, or you're skipping out on those, like, that's going to start to add up more, because it's a lot more calorie dense. And that's a lot of calories that you could potentially be like, overlooking in that process. So just understand that, like, I guess my point there was, again, if things are heading in the right direction, and you feel good, you don't necessarily have to count them, if you are starting to maybe get plateaued, you know, definitely look at like your other tracking, you know, make sure you're tracking all your calorie dense stuff. But you know, adding in your veggies can be, again, they're going to count towards your macros. So again, if you aren't seeing the weight loss that you want to see, you know, you might want to look at a logging them and going from there. So kind of my Yeah, my answer there on that, and kind of how I would go about that with clients. Yeah,

Philip Pape  56:34

I mean, there's a big practicality aspect to this, like you said, like, even if people are not tracking everything, but they're getting the result, maybe what's their, what they're doing is working for them. I know, when I eat every night, and I track my food, it's like the veggie ends up being the last thing and it hardly makes a dent in the calories and macros. So you're like, I like to track it because of the micros as well. So if you'd happen to be tracking your micronutrients, it's nice to have those in there. And then also depends on how we're defining vegetables or including like potatoes and corn and like actually high energy, starchy type vegetables, then yeah, you should probably log those. And then for everything else, like greens, you know, non starchy stuff. My approach is like, let's say you're having a salad, and it has 20 ingredients, pick the three or four that are calorie containing log those and you're good. You know, now if you don't log them at all, and it's kind of inconsistent, the accuracy goes up and down, it tends to be kind of in the wash at the end of the day anyway, because all you care about is like, what's the change relative to my intake? It's kind of like supplements, like, I don't track my fish oil, even though it has, what 40 calories? Because I take it every day, you know? So yeah, practicality versus accuracy and precision. If you find that you can't track it all, because you're obsessing over getting the Swiss shard logged, just maybe don't log.

Jeff Hoehn  57:49

That's it? Well, people will be like, well, you know, maybe my serving sizes off with them. And it's like, it's gonna be really hard to get your your veggie macros off right from logging simply because it really is hard to get a ton of calories. And what you do need to be making sure your serving sizes are right on the more calorie dense but like you said, again, I think it comes back to the practicality of it, right? I would hate for somebody to stress out about tracking their macros and not do it. Because they're like, they don't want to count every veggie because then it's like, alright, we probably can can get away. The only thing I'll say on this is, if you do have a coach, though, because this is something I see is, it might not be a bad idea to put them in because like I'll do this where I'll be like going through food blogs, and I'm like, hey, you need to get some more veggies in and they're like, Well, I, you know, that would be that would be

Philip Pape  58:30

like fiber fiber actually, yeah, yeah. Fiber. No,

Jeff Hoehn  58:33

that's good point you bring up right, it will, you may show lower fiber. So, you know, again, I think it still comes back to what we said where it's like, if you're, you know, what you're doing is working and why why make it more complicated. There. And again, maybe at some point, you will have to do that. But you know, just kind of depends on your on your results. So I

Philip Pape  58:49

had a client who was showing like seven grams of fiber a day, like we gotta get that up, and they said, Well, I'm taking 20 Something grams of psyllium husk I'm like, Okay, so that's why I don't see it in there. But also maybe that's not how we want to get your fiber. Not the only way. Not the only way right. So yeah, all good practical stuff, man. I think we covered you know, training, nutrition, fat loss, all this fun stuff. Any last words? I think we had a good one. Yep.

Jeff Hoehn  59:12

No other additions to the to what we were talking about. I know. I mean, it was great to know like you said a nice kind of blend of training and nutrition questions and I think kind of all over the again, like demographic as well, too. Right? menopause and everything in between. So yeah, I guess you know, as far as what else, definitely make sure if you are a subscriber of my podcast, make sure you go follow with some weights. I think you're doing what are you doing? Like three episodes or a week now spot is five. Wow. Okay. And then you have like a couple like shorter ones to built in there. And

Philip Pape  59:46

bonus one and then an interview in a solo? Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn  59:50

yeah. So again, make sure you check out the Whitson weights podcast from my understanding you're on every major podcast platform that you'd be listening on. And make sure you like and subscribe. ascribe to his podcast as well to their arm again, filled man always fun doing these, you know, there's a couple questions that we had where, you know, you kind of had an interesting kind of thought process behind it. And it kind of made me rethink that. And I think definitely, you know, having you to go over these with it definitely synergizes it right, we get a lot more out of it. And like, for example, you asked me to clarify the powerlifting thing, right? Whereas like, in my podcast, I would have just not even thought to, you know, would have thought about that. So I think it's super helpful. And, yeah, definitely give your your podcast a listen. It sounds great. Always super professional as well, too. So make sure you go give Philips podcast a listen.

Philip Pape  1:00:33

Yeah, man. And likewise, I mean, people like these shows, I think it's partly because of us, I hope, like having our different opinions. And sometimes we're strong about those opinions. But we come to it from a point of like wanting to help as many people as possible. And also understand that we've had a lot of both clients and listeners who, like they've listened to a lot of stuff, and they've consumed a lot of information. And it's not always the information that they need. It's like, how do you apply that? How do you implement that? And we always say, it depends. We always say like experiment and this and that. But keep asking the questions because at the end of the day, like that's how you learn and that curiosity is at least I thrive on that and I'm sure you do as well. So check out the mind muscle connection podcast if you listen to Whitson weights right now. If you're not following Jeff show, follow it right now. You've got three a week, right? Three

Jeff Hoehn  1:01:17

Yep. q&a guests and solo. Yeah, exactly. So

Philip Pape  1:01:21

check those out. And look if you don't like an episode of either of ours, you just have to delete it, but follow it so you get each one and some of them are gonna be a huge hit. You never know. You know, my latest episode it says do this in the bedroom dot that dot see curiosity you're like, what is that one about? And I'm sure

Jeff Hoehn  1:01:38

that's a really cool right now to download that episode right now.

Philip Pape  1:01:41

He's like, Yeah, I'm not gonna say what it's about. But anyway, go go follow the mind muscle connection. And stay tuned a reach out to both of us on our various IG. We'll throw those in the show notes so that you can ask questions we ask q&a In our stories as well all the time so that you might see it on the podcast.

Jeff Hoehn  1:01:58

Yep. And I would say to if we you know, if you do have any, like clarifying questions on what we talked about today, I think, you know, for me, Instagram is the best place like if you want to ask any follow up to that I'm sure same thing with you follow up probably the best place to like reach you for like specific questions. And then I plan on doing this again, in the next couple months with you. So be on the lookout for questions and our question boxes so we can answer these on here. So

Philip Pape  1:02:19

that Jeff Hain underscore, yes, sir. At Woodson, waits, and waits and waits. Cool. Awesome. All right, so stay strong, everybody. Thanks for tuning in.

Jeff Hoehn  1:02:26

Talk to you guys soon.

Philip Pape  1:02:29

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

The Dark Side of GLP-1 Weight Loss Drugs (Ozempic, Mounjaro, Zepbound) with Amy Wilson| Ep 183

Diet myths got you stuck? Struggling to lose weight NO MATTER WHAT you try? GLP-1 drugs: Magic bullet or risky business?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) brings on Amy Wilson, a Board Certified Geriatric Pharmacist, a certified fitness professional, and a certified nutrition coach, for an engaging conversion on GLP-1 weight loss drugs. Amy's mission is to empower her clients to take control of their bodies and minds without feeling tied down by the scale. In this episode, they explore the root causes of obesity and weight gain, as well as the origins and current use of GLP-1 drugs like Ozempic, Wegovy, Mounjaro, and others for diabetes and weight loss. Tune in to learn about the pros and cons of these drugs and discover practical lifestyle perspectives for managing these conditions. They also share the secret sauce to achieving your health goals, providing you with actionable steps to take control of your health.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:19 Amy's journey from pharmacist to fitness and nutrition coach
5:53 The rising obesity, its root causes, and weight gain
10:05 Debunking dieting myths and the concept of body fat set points
12:56 Reversing the effects of dieting at any age
14:04  Introduction to GLP-1 drugs: a new approach to weight management
20:25 Long-term impact of GLP-1 drugs and the importance of maintaining muscle mass
22:11 A safe way to use GLP-1 drugs for weight management
28:01 Discussion on the impact of lifting weights and proper nutrition on weight loss
32:16 Effective dosage and the varying responses to weight loss drugs
36:19 Initial steps for starting a health journey
42:33 How to be metabolic flexible or a fat burner
44:54 Walk after meals to manage your blood sugar
47:02 What questions did Amy wish Philip had asked
49:10 Where to find Amy
50:07 Outro

Episode resources:

•  Website: amykwilson.com– send a message that says “witsandweights” to get the free 5-Day Fat Loss Blueprint (recipes)

• IG: @thenutritioncoachpharmacist  

Episode summary:

In the latest episode of Wits & Weights, host Philip Pape sits down with Amy Wilson, a board-certified geriatric pharmacist and certified fitness professional, to discuss the transformative power of prioritizing health and strength over chasing unrealistic body standards. We delve into the root causes of obesity, the role of GLP-1 drugs, and the importance of holistic health strategies.

Amy Wilson opens the episode by challenging the conventional wisdom that places a premium on achieving a certain body size. Instead, she advocates for training with the goal of future health and strength. According to Amy, being slightly above what society deems an "ideal size" but maintaining strength and functionality can have profound benefits for long-term health. She emphasizes that being able to perform everyday tasks, like getting out of a chair or carrying groceries, is far more important than fitting into a smaller size.

One of the key discussions in the episode revolves around the role of GLP-1 drugs like semaglutide and terzepatide, commonly known by their brand names Ozempic and Wegovy. Originally developed for diabetes management, these drugs have gained popularity for their weight loss effects. Amy explains that while these medications can be effective, they are not without risks. Potential side effects include nausea, irreversible gastroparesis, and muscle loss. She stresses that a holistic approach, which combines medication with proper nutrition and lifestyle changes, is essential for sustainable health outcomes.

The conversation takes a deep dive into the complexities of using GLP-1 drugs for weight loss. Amy shares a compelling real-life case of a client who experienced significant appetite suppression while on Ozempic, making it challenging to maintain a moderate calorie deficit and proper nutrition. This led to muscle degradation, highlighting the misconception that exercise and high protein intake can completely offset the negative effects of these drugs. Amy underscores the importance of a strategic, temporary use of these medications, if at all, and the need for physicians to guide patients through a holistic health plan.

Amy also tackles the pressing issue of polypharmacy, where individuals end up taking multiple medications to counteract the side effects of their primary treatment. She points out that the muscle loss associated with Ozempic use often leads to the prescription of additional medications, creating a cycle of dependency. Amy advocates for lifestyle changes, such as learning proper nutrition and incorporating resistance training, to avoid long-term health consequences like frailty and medication dependency.

The episode doesn't shy away from addressing the societal pressures and misconceptions surrounding body image. Amy calls out the unrealistic standards set by the media and celebrities, who often claim to have tried everything without achieving desired results. She argues that many of these individuals have not fully committed to a holistic approach that includes weightlifting and real food. By focusing on sustainable habits and long-term health, Amy aims to inspire listeners to break free from the diet culture and prioritize their well-being.

Amy provides actionable steps for starting a healthy lifestyle, especially for older adults. She emphasizes the importance of reducing chronic inflammation and managing cravings through better nutrition. Amy advises incorporating whole, real foods into daily meals and avoiding ultra-processed foods. She also highlights the significance of seeking help and staying away from quick-fix solutions, which often do more harm than good.

The episode wraps up with a discussion on the critical role of insulin in our bodies. Amy explains that insulin is not the enemy, as commonly portrayed. Instead, it plays a vital role in managing blood sugar levels. She emphasizes the importance of whole food nutrition, balanced meals, and regular physical activity, particularly weightlifting, to enhance insulin sensitivity. Simple movements, like walking after meals, can have a significant impact on both physical and mental health.

In conclusion, this episode of Wits and Weights with Amy Wilson is a treasure trove of insights and practical advice for anyone looking to take control of their health. Amy's expertise and passion for preventing lifestyle diseases through nutrition and fitness shine through, offering listeners a roadmap to achieve both mental and physical strength. By prioritizing long-term health and well-being over unrealistic body standards, Amy and Philip aim to inspire a shift in how we approach fitness and health. Tune in to this enlightening episode and take the first step towards a healthier, stronger you.

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Transcript

Amy Wilson  00:00

being just a little bit more on a fluffy side or a little bit bigger than what you think you should be. But that strong, guess what you get out of a chair? That's huge. Can you bring all your groceries in and one trip? That's huge. What we need to be doing is training for our future self and quit worrying about that size 246 Whatever we're trying to get into in those jeans, and think about okay, you know what, I have the button legs and that's okay.

Philip Pape  00:28

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of the weights and weights Podcast. Today. It's pleasure to welcome Amy Wilson to the show. Amy is a board certified geriatric pharmacist, a certified fitness professional and a certified nutrition coach who's shaking up the fitness industry and helping her clients take control of their health. We'd love to hear that on this show. With over 30 years of experience, Amy specializes in creating personalized health plans that address her client's unique barriers so they can be successful. She is very passionate about preventing and reversing diseases like pre diabetes, diabetes, high cholesterol, using lifestyle using nutrition and fitness. Amy's mission is to empower her clients to feel in control of their bodies and minds without feeling tied down by the scale. So in our conversation, today, you are going to learn the root causes of obesity and weight gain, the origins and current use of GLP one drugs like the sun, magnetite, and tears appetite and some of the newer ones that I can't even pronounce drugs like ozempic, Manjaro, and others for diabetes. And now weight loss. There are pros there are cons, long term effects and what most people can do instead from a lifestyle perspective. Amy, it is a pleasure to have you on the show. Hey,

Amy Wilson  02:06

Philip, I am so excited to be here my favorite conversation to have awesome,

Philip Pape  02:09

yes. So you had this long career as a pharmacist and nutrition coach, and I know you talk about the trifecta kind of unique combination of your background and skills. And now you're kind of helping people, I'll say disrupt the diet industry because sometimes that's what we need to do when we talk about these topics. How did your background and pharmacy influence the approach that you have today with nutrition and weight management, for example,

Amy Wilson  02:32

it was kind of like my own journey, really, because I became a fitness instructor at 17. I was one of the people who always tried to out train a bad diet. Let's just be honest. That's what that's what I did. That's and that's what a lot of us still try to do. We try to outwork out the things that we're eating, like, oh, you see all the T shirts, I run for tacos, or whatever it is. And it wasn't really until I became a geriatric pharmacist and working in the nursing homes, that I really started seeing more lifestyle diseases, because here's what's happening is that it used to be in what you're probably thinking of a nursing home is that it's people in the later stages of life, their 90s are hundreds, that they can't live by themselves. They're frail. The problem is that is not what's going on today. Now it's 40s 50s 60 year olds, who are in nursing homes, a good majority have been because of maybe lifestyle, maybe there's a stroke, an early age, heart attacks, diabetes, which causes issues with your kidneys or renal disease could be because they lost a limb due to diabetes. So I started looking at this with my journey going through perimenopause, menopause, gaining weight. And it was one of those aha moments. I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm still trying to outrun a bad diet. But it goes deeper than that. It goes deeper than chasing skinny, which a lot of us have been doing forever. It's now that hey, I'm in midlife. And I don't feel like I'm in my 50s. I still feel like I'm in my 20s and 30s. And I want to make sure that in my 80s and 90s, I'm feeling like I'm in my 50s and 60s. So it's now stopped at Chase skinny is now starting to focus on health and strength, which is nutrition and weightlifting, to change the course to changes our course. And what I started seeing was that, hey, with my clients that came to me, it's like, they'll go the doctor, the doctor says, You're pre diabetic, or maybe you're diabetic, or you have a heart condition that your high blood pressure or high cholesterol. And it kind of means like, Hey, I don't want to be on medication. Well, I'm a pharmacist who prefers that you're not on medication, medication is a great thing. It's it should be the last resort shouldn't be the first thing you can reverse. So that's where I started seeing pictures like you know what, we can prevent you from being in one of my nursing homes. That's really my ultimate mission is let's stop that. Let's start working on prevention. Then, which is what we should be doing for health care, instead of going for the medication. And thinking that, Oh, there's a pill to fix that, how about we start using food and fitness, fix it, you're

Philip Pape  05:10

speaking my language and that of those who listen to the show 100%, especially when you talk weightlifting, because I agree as well. And I think until you get into this space, and start to apply these, whether it's to yourself or with clients or others, and you see a life changing, just small differences in your habit in a very short period, I mean, like, you know, I didn't start really getting in shape tells almost 40, and I've seen my peers degrade. And again, I'm only in my 40s. And yet I see people who look 1020 years older. And, you know, it often does come right down to muscle, muscle mass and just having that lifestyle. And doctors give the typically the same advice, diet and exercise, do your cardio, you know, cut out this cut out that right, I was surprised for you to say that nursing homes are now filled with much younger people, like I just wasn't aware of that statistic. And I think it's another wake up call, perhaps for what we need to do here. So I guess let's dissect a little bit, the obesity and the muscle mass kind of both sides of that equation and the root causes of all of this, because I think that's going to lead to when we talk about these medications, and people who are on them, and maybe things that they're not doing that they could be doing and maybe don't have to be on them. That's where people want to be. So let's talk about the rise in obesity. And what they're linked to beyond the obvious is the way I'll put it. So

Amy Wilson  06:27

let's take a trip down memory lane, if you know and all of us who are maybe Gen X. And even if you're a millennial, you'll kind of get this in the 70s. If you look back at pictures, people were skinny, you're like, wow, what happened? Well, the unfortunate part of the 70s is that people were having heart attacks. And it was a lot. And so we had all these groups saying, oh my gosh, we gotta do something about all these heart attacks, it must be fat. It must be all the saturated fat that's causing it. So instead of kind of looking at other things are like it's FAT, FAT, FAT, FAT, FAT. That's that's the problem. Guess what happened in the 80s? We replaced fat we went low fat. We went fat free snack. Well, snapper. Exactly. That's the class is established. Yeah. And the thing is, what we have a lot of belief systems and a lot of our belief system is multimedia, or things that we read over and over and over again, that just kind of grains us. So we had this where fat was bad. The problem is, is when you go with fat, free low fat, you're now going with additives, chemicals, preservatives and sugar. So we replace something we replace being relatively thin, and having some heart disease, with now being overweight, and diabetes, and being insulin resistance, because our bodies are just this huge chemical reaction, huge chemical reaction. They require vitamins, minerals, proteins, fats, carbohydrates, they don't require preservatives, chemicals, artificial stuff. And in fact, they don't have no idea what to do with that causes us to be hungry. When you think about going to something Chinese will say just because you're just having a lot of carbohydrates, it spikes your blood sugar, you're usually hungry a couple hours later. Same thing when you're eating a bunch of diet food. When people when we are on a diet and you're eating the link cuisines, the healthy choice, the diet bars, the diet shakes, you're starving all the times because you're not giving your body the nutrition that it needs. So we're in this diet culture, and we're bigger than ever, which is just crazy. So we've created this culture, we've also created the convenience culture that, Hey, Mom, you're too busy to cook, come to the drive thru, let us help you let us make your life easier. And a lot of these conveniences have also caused us to have a very poor relationship with food not and get the best food in our system. And then we're also addicted to this food, which causes our problem now as we have obesity, and now we're thinking that oh, I can't do anything about it. I don't have time to cook. I don't have time to do this. I don't understand what food is correct. What food should I eat? How much do I need? What do I need? Why are diets bad? It's there's so much misinformation in there. And all we're doing is making it easier, unfortunately, to gain weight and to be out of shape and to not be healthy. Yeah. So

Philip Pape  09:31

I mean, I've heard this termed as the obesogenic environment. And like you said, there's a huge not only miss information, but now Miss alignment between probably what our bodies will thrive from and be nourished by and what is out there and what we're seeking, through, you know, a lifetime from childhood of having these in our food environment. And we see this with other cultures around the world who are untouched by Western culture and then they significantly decline in that you know, once they get access to it, even the hodza tribe now that you Hear they've got some westernization going on. And they're starting to get you know, poor outcomes. Let before we move on from this, there's always the debate about Is it food? Is it behavior? Is it emotional eating? There's even the theories about like body fat setpoint. And I don't know if you know Stephen guy net? Is that how you pronounce his name? The brain? What's it called, he wrote a book about the brain hungry brain, I think it was called about like the programming of our brain and also how our body fat setpoint tends to worsen as we yo yo diet over time. I mean, kind of touch on some of those so that we can maybe simplify it for the listener to say, No, it is really this, but also we can do something about it. And we're not going to like throw you under the bus and say it's your fault. But we also know we can take power over it. So

Amy Wilson  10:45

especially for females, since we've been dieting since probably age 1516. Every time we dieted, we slowed our metabolism down. So don't hate me ladies, and then do this that happens to every time you starve yourself, your body is going to need fuel for something, your body needs to run, our bodies are programmed to try to survive. You need amino acids is coming from your muscle, you need vitamins minerals is coming from your bones. You don't give it what it needs is going to figure out a way to survive. The problem is every single time that you did this, because go back and think about oh my god, that that one diet that one diet works. So well. I got my skinny jeans or I gotten the dress that I wanted. And it was great. And then I get a lot of clients like this. They're like, but why are things taken so slow? Now I said, didn't really work. You're here. Now, it didn't work. If something can't work for the long term, if you can't sustain it, that means it didn't work. So every time that you did one of these diets, every time that you lost weight, you pretty much lost muscle, you might have lost a little body fat, a little bit of water, but you lost muscle muscles or metabolism muscles or fountain of youth. When you lose that you slow your metabolism down every single time and then then all of a sudden 4050 Your hormones switch and they start changing. And you can't understand why you're gaining weight so fast. Yes. Does it happened with perimenopause, menopause? It absolutely does it happen with men as they get older, especially they have body fat because now they have estrogen because they have body fat. So when you start doing that, the weight keeps coming on because we kind of set ourselves up for this. But the good news is, is that yes, you can reverse Yes, you can get that muscle back, you can decrease your body fat, you can change your body composition. But you can't do it starving, and you can't do it with doing hours of cardio. Couldn't have

Philip Pape  12:36

said it better. That was a good summary of the whole idea that yeah, if you're constantly, like you said, starving yourself, you're you're accelerating this process. You're losing muscle with age from that from the fact that you're not using it probably. And then hormones accelerate that process even further period post menopause, but also with men and lower testosterone, everything else. But you can reverse it at any point tell us how how old can you be before none of this works?

Amy Wilson  13:00

Oh, I have clients in their 70s and 80s. So I would say you know exactly what I tell anybody. If you want to change, if you are ready, it doesn't matter how old you are. I mean, we see it all the time, you'll see stories and People Magazine or GM A Good Morning America, have somebody in who you can make consider old elderly, who totally changed who they were. And maybe they got rid of a disease state or they listened to disease state, because they finally said it's enough. I'm done, I am going to get healthy. And this is going to be who I am now. And I think that is what you have to decide is that I always had people was like, oh, but can they want to pick and choose that I want to do this. But I don't want to do this, I want to do this or I want to do this, you have to realize is that there are a bunch of puzzle pieces. You have to put them all together? Does it have to be difficult? No. And that's what it was like, let me get my soapbox is out my feet. It does not have to be difficult. But you do have to do some changing. And you do have to be changing your beliefs and some myths that you've been believing for maybe years.

Philip Pape  14:04

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. We're gonna tease now. So some of these lifestyle things we're talking about. We're gonna tease that for later in the episode because what I want to do now is segue into the origin of some of these weight loss drugs. And then kind of the journey of you know, people's usage of them how we think of them, and then eventually tie that into what can we do instead? Like, what's the more optimal approach that gives you control over your your situation, that GLP one drugs and you can get as technical as you want. I love geeking out on this stuff and a lot of the listeners do so don't worry about that. They're super popular we have there's a lot of confusion over naming, but I know there's the compound names like semaglutide. And by the way the The Wall Street Journal had in their podcast recently, like a background on these drugs from the 90s. And they talked to the guy who invented the original one and he said it's pronounced a magnetite. I don't know if you agree with that a lot. A lot of people say semaglutide So anyway, he said that's where Oh like Yeah, so it's a magnetite or is Episode and others that had then have brand names, very well known like ozempic will go V Manjaro. And then you pointed out on zip bound as well. So now these drugs were originally designed for diabetes, and how do they What's the origin that you know of? And how do they work in the body control to change things? Like I know they control hormones, or maybe blood sugar? How do they work? Exactly. So

Amy Wilson  15:23

it is a huge discovery. So GLP one is a hormone that's in the gut. Let me say, like I said before, is that medication is sometimes needed. Absolutely. But we have to realize this medication sometimes in a lot of ways is a treatment not a cure, especially for lifestyle diseases. What we want to do is tried to cure it with fitness and nutrition. Now, if you're type one, but type one diabetics won't be on GLP ones. But yes, we've had GLP ones for years, and I'll get that people out. But it's been safe. Okay. GOP ones have been pills that you take on a daily basis for diabetes. With those there's been a small amount of weight loss, not a lot, maybe 5%. When someone's diabetic type two, that is that is good. We want them to lose some weight. The problem or I'll say the problem is, is that what happened with GOP ones is that they were a daily pill, right? Then they start looking at a once a week injection, and that's where everything changed. So what is it GLP One gop one is a glucagon like peptide that is secreted in your gut. It helps with insulin secretion, it decreases or inhibits glucose, glucagon secretion, and then it also slows down gastric motility in the injection form, it's like GLP, one times 100. So it's more powerful. We didn't realize that there's also GLP ones in your brain. That's just recent, which I think is just let me get out. Holy freaking cool, right? Totally cool. It's like, okay, so why didn't the pill work? Well, what happens when you eat because guess what, you could stimulate GLP one naturally, guess because it works naturally, we have it in our system naturally. When you have fiber, when you have protein, when you have high water content, vegetables, when you have healthy fats, that will stimulate your GLP one naturally, the thing about GLP one, it has what's called a very short half life, it gets released, it does its job, it tells you not to eat anymore, it slows down motility, and then it goes bye bye. Perfect is doing what your body wants. Now, the injections have a very long half life. And so they last in the body a long time. That's where we're getting some of the issues with possibly crossing the blood brain barrier, because now we're seeing that there are GLP one receptors in the brain, why it may be helping with people with addiction issues, that that might be part of an addiction, which is kind of cool. But what it also does is it turns on, so maybe nausea receptors, it can really slow down your gut motility to the point where it causes something called gastroparesis, which is the total shutdown of your gut. That's not a good thing. And it's unfortunately not reversible. And the other issues is that it makes you nauseated, it makes you not hungry. And I know every female is going Yes, finally, I won't be hungry. But guess what, that's not a good thing. That really isn't a good thing. I know we crave food lessons, we crave food because of not feeding our bodies properly. Because we are what are called Sugar burners. You're constantly feeding your body carbohydrates and sugar and not getting also your fats and proteins and your good complex carbohydrates. And so you're balancing your blood sugar so you're not always reaching for those candy bars. So not being hungry and not eating. Remember, I told you what happens when our when we're younger and we stop eating we do we lose muscle and we start going from our bones. Well hello, midlife women, the thing that we don't need to do is lose muscle and lose things from our bones. You know, and then I see osteoporosis and men now don't need to be doing that either. So the problem with GOP ones is that yes, can they cause you to lose weight and be skinny? Yeah. But what we're going to start seeing in 456 years down the road with these people who have been on it for a long period of time. And I look first of all, if you're on it, I am not condemning you, because if you're on it, please be working with somebody to make sure that you're getting enough fuel and making sure that you're keeping your muscle if you are on it, and you're not doing that. What could possibly happen if you don't start taking care of your body and your fuel and your muscle and working on eating enough is that you're gonna lose muscle. Your bones are become brittle. And what we're gonna start seeing is frailty. And that's a geriatric term, meaning if you see somebody who is sure shuffling, who looks old, who looks like they just blow over if you just, you know, blow on them and they're gonna blow over those or do any bone will break any seconds. That's we're going to start seeing, we're gonna start seeing hip fractures, we're start seeing people in the nursing homes who are young due to a GOP one, because we're not, we're using this as a lifestyle drug without taking the responsibility to make sure that we're using it correctly.

Philip Pape  20:26

Good. Yeah, you touched Okay, two excellent topics we should get into one is going to be the muscle loss, I want to start there. And the other will be the what do we do in conjunction even if you are taking it to actually at least get the best result out of it? So first of all, muscle loss. All right, so we all we thought I shouldn't say we all know, but people will listen to this show have heard me say many times, if you're not strength training, and you lose weight, which is what most people are doing throughout their life, when they diet, they lose muscle mass, and then they gain fat back and they constantly get more skinny fat, or they just get overall closer to that obese level of body fatness. Does treatment with these GLP ones, increase muscle loss above and beyond what you would be if you were just in a crash diet on your own mimicking the same deficit as being on these drugs? Or is there something above and beyond that it's causing MSA,

Amy Wilson  21:11

it's above and beyond. And the reason is, most time a crash diet the most that you can be on it by yourself is five to 10 days, because by then you're like binge, right? Because that's what happens. Your body's like, feed me feed Asia. Yeah. Right. And the problem with the GOP once it turns that off, so you're never hungry. So it's kind of like your crash dieting for a very long period of time. body needs amino acids. It is going to get it from muscle. And then somebody's be like, Oh, but you know what, I'm going to work out too. And I'm going to lift weights so that I can keep my muscle, no wrong answer. Because if you're not giving your body what it needs, if you're not feeling your body, if you're not giving it protein, fats and carbohydrates, it's going to use it for just trying to make it's anything I'm trying to maintain. That's the point you're not even given enough to maintain, you're given enough maybe to function and that's it. And so there will be no muscleman maintain, there'll be no muscle building, and actually working out could be even been worse, unfortunately. Okay,

Philip Pape  22:12

no. So that's good. Yeah, you make a fair point that you could artificially be on a diet that would normally be completely unsustainable for a very long time, because you're on this drug, which a lot of people is the purported benefit of it for people until you explain to them all these dark sides. So I had a client, I probably had multiple other clients that were on this that I didn't know. But early on, I had a client who was diabetic who was on the original ozempic. For that, like this was right around the time, then the weight turned into a weight loss drug. And it was amazing that she could go weeks or months at a time in a calorie deficit. And always it was a 10 out of 10 on hunger, like no hunger, right? Yeah, to the point where I was, you know, I was worried, but I knew the symptoms of the drug. And we were trying to do all the right things, right. She was lifting weights, she was eating a lot of protein, she was balancing her meals, but you kind of have to force it right not forced to be you have to deliberately do those things. And we kept the weight loss moderate. So it was interesting, because She almost had trouble eating enough because of her appetite being so suppressed, eating enough to stay in a moderate deficit. It was like the drug was wanting to get her way down into this ridiculous rate of loss. Yeah. So then, given all that, is there any good way to use this, you mentioned treatment versus cure is there like, you get a boost initially to get into an unhealthy regime, and then you get off of it, or, you know, you take it for a while, get all your lifestyle and gear, and then you get off of it. You know, I just want to throw that out there. If there's a possibility of it.

Amy Wilson  23:38

There are physicians who are starting to do that and making sure that they are in conjunction with a healthy diet, making sure that they're getting everything they're coming in, and they're actually doing their body composition to show that if they start losing muscle, but the problem is there's very few who are doing that. And that I mean, that's right. And I hate to say it is a cash cow. It's a moneymaker, the Big Pharma has seen that you know what the biggest issue with ozempic Bulgogi is people losing muscle. So guess what? They're coming out with another medication. They're looking at another medication that's using for muscle preservation. Oh, I must say, perfect. That is amazing for someone with multiple sclerosis, that it's amazing for other other issues. So that's what it takes to get that kind of medication great. But you're looking at someone who has those epic, let's say they're having bowel issues. So they're on something for that they're having nausea, they're having on something for that. They are having muscle wasting. So they're on something for that. And it's like now you have this big polypharmacy to be skinny. You know, I totally get people are like I'm, I'm obese, I need something. This is what's working. Okay, well, then we need to start looking at the ramp to get off and that is slow and working with somebody because you're going to have to start learning how to eat what you need to eat. And you're gonna start having to learn how to lift and work out. And the biggest proponent, I was like, but I don't have time, I don't want to think about it. I don't want to have to think about to eat I don't want to think about working out is, as traders always say, choose your heart. What's your heart? Is your heart going to be in a nursing home in 10 years because of this? Or is your hard to learn how to change your lifestyle? For me is it's a no brainer. I work in the nursing home industry, I see what it's like, excuse my language. Hell, no. That's not what I want. And I think most people don't want that either. What we want to do is try to prevent that now. So yes, it's hard, but you can do it. And the thing is, we can make it doable with baby steps and you do not have to work out for hours. 30 minutes a day, do something called NEET, which is non exercise Activity Thermogenesis, which just means moving your body, and you are perfect. You are perfect. But we have to get out of our head, females. Skinny does not equal healthy. And being a certain size is maybe not what's right for you. And maybe it's being just a little bit more on a fluffy side or a little bit bigger than what you think you should be. But that strong. Guess what? Can you get out of a chair? That's huge. Can you bring all your groceries in and one trip? That's huge. What we need to be doing is training for our future self and quit worrying about that size. 246 Whatever we're trying to get into in those jeans, and think about okay, you know what, I have the button legs, and that's okay. Absolutely.

Philip Pape  26:36

We need to get this message out because I've met with cardiologists this week, and a trainer this week, and it seems to be coming up more and more and more this concept of there's body images, body fatness, they're skinny fat. And there's all of this gets conflated together. And at the end of the day, like you said, you want to be in your 70s or 80s, not able to get off the toilet, or in a nursing home or on 20 medications. And I see it in my family. And I'm sure everyone listening who has an older parent or grandparent has seen what frailty does. And it's not inevitable, like that's the message it's definitely not inevitable, even though it is 95% of the population probably would you said

27:13

before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency. But from the very beginning, Philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self confidence. What sets Phillip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Philip Pape.

Philip Pape  27:55

Okay, before we get to more digging into lifestyle, then just back on the GOP one drugs here. I've heard the advertisements and I've heard the stories that come on in the media, where people will say, you know, I just couldn't lose weight, right? Weight loss resistance. And there was no way I was gonna lose weight. And now I'm on this and it changed my life. And it's always that message of, oh, I wish I could look at their lifestyle. I wish I could do like an intake with them and see the simple things they could change. I know they're not lifting weights. I hate to say it, I just know it. Because if you are all this stuff tends to go away. Even eat more food and lose weight. I mean, it's crazy. What are your thoughts on that? Kind of the more touchy side of it there?

Amy Wilson  28:31

I mean, okay, so let's talk about the celebrities who are on it. So I've tried everything. I tried everything and not Yeah, I would love to see okay, were you really lifting weights? What were you eating? Were you eating everything from the you know, the the craft cart that's coming in, that they're catering? Are you focusing on real food? Are you focusing on the diet, the quick fixes? Because let's face it in Hollywood, what they do is they do quick fixes, quick fixes, quick fixes, and guess what it catches up with you? So could some of them be insulin resistance? And maybe they do need this? Absolutely. There's a possibility, but you have to use it with nutrition and lifting weights. There's not Oh, let me just do as them pick and not forget about this part. No. Let's do this part. And if you have to have ozempic, okay, we'll work with you on that say, well, we'll figure this out. And maybe it'd be the lowest effective dose period. But let's try this first. And see what's gonna happen. Here's the problem. That slow, it's not sexy. It doesn't come off fast. It's frustrating. And what I I love James clear atomic habits. I want to read that book all the time for sure. My favorite analogy is his is with the ice cube. And this is why I tell my clients over and over and over again when they're like it's not coming. It's not coming. I'm like okay, first of all, this didn't happen overnight. We are retraining and healing your body from the inside out and you have to you don't see the inside You'll see what's going on, you don't see the chemical reactions, they're now going boom, you don't see the muscle being built. So I want you to think yourself as an ice cube. But an ice cube doesn't melt until it hits 32 degrees. But guess what happens at 2021 2223. All of a sudden, these atoms are moving faster and faster, all the molecules are moving faster and faster and faster and faster. But you don't see it. You still see this ice cube as a solid state 2930 31 It is still a frickin solid state. It's not moving. It's not budging. My body's not doing anything. And then all of a sudden at 32 We got a puddle 33 puddle puddle without any ice in it whatsoever. Holy crap, how the heck did that happen? It's the same thing with our bodies. So it may not be five days, it may not be a month, it might be like, for me, it was month six, that all of a sudden I lost seven inches from my hips. It was like, Excuse me, that wasn't because of that month. That was five months prior of everything working and building and getting to the point where it needed to be so that my body could start saying, Okay, we're doing muscle, and we're gonna start burning fat. Yeah, it takes time. And that's what people don't want. And unfortunately, we're in the, give it to me now society, Instagram, don't like it, flick up to the next real. Let me go look on it on Amazon so I can get it in one day. All those kinds of things, we have to realize that our body is not on that timetable. Our body's on whatever timetable it wants to be. And mine is different than yours. And different than whoever's listening to this right now is different. But the one thing I can tell you is that we don't get side effects from food and weightlifting, yeah, no,

Philip Pape  31:45

nothing but good side effects. Yeah, so the power of compound habits is so true. It's like this flatline, that starts to accelerate, eventually, someone else put it to me this way, at least in fitness. After three weeks, you start to feel it after three months, you start to see it. And after three years, you start to be it, it was like this idea of, you know, it's a really long term process. And even at even after a year or two, you're still figuring things out and developing the skills, but it's so much fun and actual process can be so much fun. If you you know, kind of do it the right way for you. You mentioned. Okay, so a couple other things that came up. One is, you mentioned the effective dose. I was wondering about that when it came to these drugs. It sounds like there are different dosage levels you can have. It's not just one pin that everybody gets, okay. Yeah, is it typically started at the lowest or started

Amy Wilson  32:32

at the lowest, and then they'll keep increasing and just know that there are people who are resistant to this drugs, too. There are people that it does not work with. So and then there's some people, you know, they'll get the side effects right away, then they refuse to do it, because they're getting the nausea, the vomiting, that they stop right away. If once again, everybody's different, we all have a different DNA profile. And that's what people have to realize is that, you know, and that's the beauty thing about the Earth, the world is that we are all different,

Philip Pape  32:57

right? And the new is of the new drugs you mentioned, Zep bound or something. What's different between that and the older ones? Oh,

Amy Wilson  33:03

well, I haven't seen the studies per se. I've just seen kind of like the blurbs that it's supposed to be even more potent, which scares me. But in America, what do we want? We want? We want it we want the max, we want the extraordinary and yeah, that's it's kind of scary.

Philip Pape  33:21

Well, especially since they are expensive. And I know of course people complain about it, and why isn't insurance covering it? Medicare doesn't cover weight loss, drugs, all this other stuff. And, you know, you've got the compounding pharmacy debate going on, because the FDA put it on their shortage list. And so you got calm, right, all of that. Like if you just don't take it, you don't have to worry about any of that. Yeah, yeah. What about somebody who has excessive weight to lose? Let's say they're up in the 300 plus range. I've heard these stories where the excuse the reason, whatever you want to call it is, you know, just to hurt too much to move and do any of the lifestyle things is, is there some point where you're like, yeah, maybe this actually is the last resort for someone? Or what are your thoughts?

Amy Wilson  34:00

You know, I can I understand that I do. But you if you're going to use it get with a trainer, what I have seen in my facilities is that those who are who are larger, doesn't seem to work very well. And which I don't know why. And it could be because they don't move. It could be because their BMR is so low, that just nothing's going to work. And yeah, they don't lose, they don't eat. They're not losing the body fat. And that could be that the resistance? I don't know. But okay, so if you start it starts coming off, and you're not hungry. Okay, but let's start working on your muscle mass. Let's start working because I hate saying at the end day, but I'm gonna say at the end of the day, if you don't have muscle I went to a symposium long time ago and it was a functional person. He said, our biggest issue growing old is gutlessness is not having glutes. Okay, yeah, for sure. I can I can totally see that because if you don't have glutes you're not able to walk you show Whoa, you're not able to stand? You're not sure what's his posture? You fall go in the bathroom. So yeah, you're gonna lose the weight. Great is may help your heart rate may decrease some of your diabetes great, but are you able to live? Are you able to lift? Are you able to walk? Are you able to do things?

Philip Pape  35:18

Yeah, we had Sue bush on the show recently talking about glute training. And yeah, that was the premise was the functionality of it not not to mention just having a shapely, but it's the function. So when people hurt, like when, again, when I hear these stories of larger individuals, and I've had a few clients that were on the bigger side, not necessarily like clinically obese, but like in the mid to upper two hundreds, let's say for a 510 male, you know, that's getting up there. Even if things hurt almost invariably, one of the solutions is just find a movement pattern that mimics something that eventually becomes a full range lifting pattern and start doing it and it will start to feel better. My own mom, she doesn't mind me talking about it like same thing. You know, painful knees, painful hips, we got to coming off the couch, getting that down the squats, all the pain went away. Now she goes to the gym. I mean, I love stuff like that, you know, when you're in your 60s and 70s. And then

Amy Wilson  36:06

you start eating right, and you reduce it and you start reducing the chronic inflammation that is also triggering pain. Yes, it's a win win. So virtuous cycle. Yes, it really is, you can't do one without the other, you really need both. So

Philip Pape  36:19

then let's talk about lifestyle, let's get a little bit more specific. If there's something you would recommend for those listening, who maybe are have been struggling with the whole cascade of things that we hear, it could be both, they've had trouble losing weight, due to whatever reason, they maybe have some cravings, emotional eating, quote, unquote, addicted to sugar and things like that. Although, you know, I like to say you wouldn't go and eat from a bag of sugar, you're really addicted to other things that happen to have sugar. And all those things. It's just somebody comes in, and they're just a mess. Okay? Where do you where do you start? Let's just go there.

Amy Wilson  36:54

The first thing is what I do and when I train, I have virtual clients. I'm all over the world. Let me tell you, it's not just the United States, it has this issue. I have clients in Europe and in in Australia, and it's the same thing. So don't worry, we're not alone.

Philip Pape  37:08

In Australia, I also have a lot of clients there. I don't speak English. But

Amy Wilson  37:13

with Australia, I think a two is that very similar to United States is that it's what they call takeaways, a lot of fast food, a lot of this kind of same issues that we have in America. The first thing to do is just okay, you have to look at everything. Look, so you made the decision to start, which is I think the biggest thing in the world is that you first of all said okay, I'm gonna start, think the worst thing that you can do is what the biggest loser does, and they're like, here you go, you're gonna work out for hours, we're going to give you all sorts of clean food, and we're not going to tell you how to do it. And then they leave you on your own. After all, we go back to home and you have to go to work. You have kids and stress so you didn't learn how to incorporate in your life. So let's take baby steps. First week. How about we start eating some real food? How about we start looking at we look at what you're eating everyday. How many times you're going through the drive thru? What are you putting in your coffee every morning? What are you having with your coffee? Are you grabbing the donut the bagel? The simple carbohydrates? Okay, can we replace that with some eggs? Can we replace that with steel cut oatmeal? can replace that with chicken? Yes, you can do steak, you can do fish, how about we do some real food. And maybe just do it's one meal every day. And then the next time is the next meal and next meal. The other thing too is don't be afraid to ask for help. There is no shame in the game. The what I want people to understand is that what I coach is all about nutrition and fitness. Stay away from the quick fixes stay away from the shakes, stay away from the things that promise yo a huge weight loss, you need to start looking at health and wellness and strength. And that's where I think a lot of us make mistakes, it's not that we're making mistakes is that we just don't know where to start. So if you can start getting rid of the processed food, the ultra processed food because frozen vegetables are processed and they're amazing. Fruit frozen fruits amazing too. So we start getting rid of the ultra processed foods is stuff that has lots of chemicals like additives, preservatives, colors, and going back to really the basics of what we should be eating, then you are going to feel better and it's going to start being you're gonna see the cascade effect, you're gonna see that, that this builds upon this that builds upon this and let me tell you, when you start eating real food, the amount that you have to eat is a lot is a lot. It is a lot of volume and you're like wait a minute, I should never be eating this much. I'm gonna gain weight. No, you won't because you're eating real food. If you think about Ultra processed food, it's already really disgusting but it's already processed for you and just digested for you and gets absorbed. Real food. It has to be digested. Not all the nutrients get absorbed. That's the difference. So you might be in taking the same amount of calories and I hate calories. We I could do macronutrients, we might be injustice in my calories, but you're getting so much more bang for your buck. And you're gonna start seeing differences in your body.

Philip Pape  40:14

Yeah, how many? How many women at least have I met that said, I don't know if I can eat this much protein. And I'm worried about gaining weight, adding all this protein and the opposite happens. You're like, I can't keep the weight on, I need actually more carbs and stuff now to make up

Amy Wilson  40:26

for it. Right. And what I tell people is that if it was working, you wouldn't be here. Right? Right. Yeah. So

Philip Pape  40:31

these are great. So first, I mean, you mentioned the decision to start. And actually, we don't want to take that for granted. Like there's a huge amount of gratitude, someone should have anyone listening to this show right now, in our millions of listeners are saying, You know what, you're right. The first thing I need to do is to decide and do that right now. Like, do that right now even pause the podcast and like, write down some of the stuff and do it. And then take baby steps, get that awareness do that audit. I love Amy's approach of, I call it additive nutrition. Somebody else I stole that term from somebody, but adding in the things that are, you know, real foods, we're not thinking of, I can't eat this, or I can't eat that. It's like just add these things in, it's going to crowd out some of the ultra processed foods. At the end of the day, Amy, you're not telling people to not eat anything processed at all are, you

Amy Wilson  41:16

know, this colonies or chocolate chip cookies I'm filming right now. But yeah, here's the thing is, is that I still eat burgers. In fact, I'm having one tonight. But it's, you know, I get real burgers, I'm making it, I'm grilling it. You know, I still do pizza and make it at home. We just forget that we can do things and it tastes so much better than going out and getting it for sure. And that's what we we kind of forget that I think what we need to remember is meaning we talked about just when we just just start writing things down, don't write down about being skinny, and why skinny is going to make you happy because it's not happiness starts now happiness starts on the inside, I want you to think about your future self. She's looking back at you. He's looking back at you. And he's saying thank you for doing XYZ, because I'm now on the beach, I'm now living my best life. So what is XYZ? What are you doing to make sure that yourself in 2030 years is living their best life? And then work backwards and start doing that and ask

Philip Pape  42:12

for help. You said no ask there's no shame ask for help right away. And that can come in many forms. So absolutely love that. I did want to one one side tangent we didn't get into any detail on but I think it's important. We talked about health beyond the muscle mass and everything else, blood sugar, and kind of insulin sensitivity and all of that, that people are often concerned about, you know, before we even get to pre diabetic or worse than that, what should people be aware of, and what kind of misinformation is there because I feel like there's a lot of it. So

Amy Wilson  42:41

and then as you get older, there is a possibility of of having a higher agency agency as a snapshot of what your blood sugar has been doing the past three months. So when we only eat processed foods, or called or processed foods, we're only going for sugar and you're hungry every two hours. That means what you called a sugar burner. Well, we want you to be as what's called metabolic flexible that you are also a fat burner. And to do that we do it sales called blood sugar stabilization. And when you eat a protein, fat and carbohydrate each time that's going to help slow down digestion is going to help slow the the release of sugar into your bloodstream which will cause insulin to be released. And by the way, insulin is not a bad thing. A get is like insulin is the devil No, it's not our once again our buys a chemical reaction, we eat our blood sugar gets raise. Insulin does its job. It says hey, muscles, liver open up, I'm bringing you energy. The problem is, is when we keep eating a lot of crap. And we keep flooding our blood with sugar and insulin keeps getting released. And the muscles are like saying the receptors like you know what talk to the hand, I am so tired of you knocking on my receptor door I am not opening up. And then that's why we get increase in blood sugar. We are seeing it more because of the ultra processed food because of the fact that we don't move because we don't lift weights. So stop the increase, stop the changes in your blood sugar now to the negative effect. And start working on whole food nutrition start getting that lifting in. The more muscle you have, the more insulin receptors you have, the less your blood sugar is going to be

Philip Pape  44:29

for sure that's an empowering message because these are simple changes like the balancing of your macros. There are a lot of benefits to doing that period. It one of them is just practically if you're like well I'm trying to hit certain amount of protein fats and carbs if I just eat balanced meals I'm gonna get there and it's not this like race of oh, now I got to do carbs and protein. Yeah, and so that's really important and you mentioned insulin and I don't know if you said glucagon but I know we can get into pancreas and all that. But lifting weights muscle mass also increase your insulin sensitivity quite a bit, don't they? Yes,

Amy Wilson  45:00

I do. And the only thing you can do is just go for a walk after you eat after Yes, yeah. And it doesn't have to be long. It's just a nice pace. And what that's going to do is that's going to bring your blood sugar down. Because guess what you're using your glutes, your legs, you're using all your muscles, your muscle needs energy is going to take it from the blood glucose.

Philip Pape  45:18

Amazing how that works. If you just use your body and the way it's intended, and not sit around either I'm having more on that message lately is lift weights. Move. Don't not move. Like I think there are three distinct buckets. Yeah.

Amy Wilson  45:31

Well, we get you know, we get in America in America is that one is good. 10 is better. And we think Okay, move means that we have to leave it all on the floor. Great. Okay. I am an instructor. I understand. I used to always say you got to leave it on the floor. It doesn't count unless your DNA is on the floor. Yes, yes, you do. You need to hit and do your cardiovascular training. Absolutely. But not every single time and not for hours. Just moving everyday. I have standing desks. So I stand during the day, going for a walk so underrated. We think that we can't do something for an hour. It's not worth it. No. Everything adds up.

Philip Pape  46:06

And it's great for your mental health too. Yeah, just like a 10 minute walk. Yeah, just feeling a little bit down. If you're feeling like stressed, go for a walk, you'll see how much it improves your mood. If there's one thing you had to say me this, this has been incredible. And the time is flying by if there's one thing, one piece of advice that you would give of either everything we've talked about or even something we haven't today to take control their health, what is it?

Amy Wilson  46:30

And I always say this, people always ask me, What's the secret sauce? How is it that you can stay healthy? How is it that some of your clients have been able to to drop the weights or get healthy? And I always tell you, you're the secret sauce, you hold all the keys to be able to get to your next level to get to where you want to go. You just have to decide, but you have the secret sauce.

Philip Pape  46:55

You are the secret sauce. I'm going to quote that. You don't have that trademark, do I? All right. So I do ask this of all guests. I don't know if you heard it on a podcast of mine. But it's one question Did you wish I had asked and what is your answer? You

Amy Wilson  47:09

know, I think we touched upon everything. It's, I don't I always say it's like, you know, it's what asked me that. It's like what one question. You know, I think that the one question would be, why should you not ever do working out or nutrition? And

Philip Pape  47:28

that's an interesting one. Okay. All right. play devil's advocate. Yeah, devil's advocate.

Amy Wilson  47:31

And the answer is, there's not a reason. Oh, there is not, there is no reason. And we have just been kind of brainwashed to think that, you know, this is just the way it is. This is where I am. It's my DNA. Yes, we can get in the DNA talk sometime. Now it's not you can change your DNA, you can change the script, you can change anything. You

Philip Pape  47:55

know, that is a very profound statement. And I want people to percolate on that a bit. Specifically, the idea that I've ever read, read the paper actually still read the physical paper on Sundays, believe it or not, and they have the little health section and it's always this like, fufu article about like, seven ways to better health. I'm very cynical about these now. But and they rarely mentioned lifting weights. And I think that's a non negotiable, like you said, I know you use the term movement and exercise. But would you agree that like, you have to be lifting weights? Yeah. And it doesn't

Amy Wilson  48:24

have to be you know, I get women all the time. But I don't want to be Arnold I don't want to look like a man. Girlfriend. Not gonna happen. Not gonna. Not gonna happen. You are lifting your dog. You're lifting your grandkids, you lift your kids, you lifted the groceries, start training for that. Make it easier. Yeah,

Philip Pape  48:41

it's important because I do see in some of these articles are like, you know, just move a little bit every day. I'm like, Okay, well, I guess if you're not moving, that's nice. But let's get the message out there to really optimize your, your health,

Amy Wilson  48:51

the shape that you want. The shape that women want, doesn't come with dieting doesn't come with hours on the treadmill or the Stairmaster or the elliptical, it comes from lifting weights, that's really the shape that you want.

Philip Pape  49:03

That's right. That's how you become Superwoman. Lean, live, fear, strong, whatever resonates with you. And, Amy, this has been a pleasure so much, where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Amy Wilson  49:13

So if they follow the whole time, they could either do two things, they can go to my website,

Philip Pape  49:19

wait a minute, don't say that. Everyone's still listening right now. Okay. So

Amy Wilson  49:23

essentially, listen, essentially, listen to the whole thing. You could go to my website, www dot AMI K wilson.com has Amy K wilson.com and Ami K wi ll so when and you can send me a message and say Whitson weights and I would love to send you a five day fat loss blueprint or if you are an Instagramer hit that follow button and send me a message that you listen to me on waits and waits and I will send you a five day fat loss blueprint that has lots of different recipes to help you get started and make it not so hard. Awesome.

Philip Pape  49:58

So we will throw that in there. MBK wilson.com And your IG handle, which is what

Amy Wilson  50:03

again, at is the nutrition coach, pharmacist, nutrition

Philip Pape  50:07

coach pharmacist and let her know what's in waits, and then I'll unlock the secret code to the five day fast blueprint and she'll send it along your way. Amy, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom and your insight with us today.

Amy Wilson  50:19

Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape  50:22

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their weights or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

How to Allocate 1200, 2000, & 3000 Calories in Your Meal Plan (Plus Hit Your Protein!)| Ep 182

Is your meal plan optimized for your fitness goals? Are you struggling to follow your diet plan because it is too restrictive? Are you looking to maximize your muscle growth and boost your energy?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) provides an evidence-based, comprehensive guide that cuts through conflicting information about meal planning and macro setting. He shares a blueprint that covers the essential aspects of setting up your meal plan for success. By following his recommendations, you will recover faster from your workouts, see changes in the mirror and on the scale, and optimize fat loss, muscle gain, performance, and overall health. Whether you are cutting, bulking, or maintaining, this episode will equip you with the necessary knowledge to structure your nutrition and achieve your fitness goals.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:35 Energy balance essentials
7:48 Calculating maintenance calories
11:55 Protein and 1,200 cal meal planning tips
14:55 How much fat and carbs you need in your diet
17:45 Nutrient-dense 1,200 cal breakdown
20:04 Sample 1,200 cal day meal plan
26:21 Macro management on a 1,200-cal diet
28:15 Transitioning to and sustaining a 2,000-cal plan
36:27 3,000 cal plan for muscle building
43:03 Hunger management at higher calories
44:48 Episode takeaways
48:12 Outro

Episode resources:

• Join my email list and tell me you want my free meal planning guide (with foods by macro, sample meal plans, and foods sorted by protein density)

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. It's the only food-logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

Episode summary:

Achieving your fitness goals often requires more than just hitting the gym; it's also about mastering your nutrition. In this episode of the Wits and Weights podcast, we delve deep into the intricacies of meal planning for fat loss, muscle gain, and balanced nutrition. We break down meal plans at varying calorie levels—1,200, 2,000, and 3,000 calories—and offer insights on how to allocate your macros for optimal results. From debunking common fitness myths to providing personalized nutrition strategies, this episode aims to make meal planning straightforward and sustainable.

To start, understanding energy balance is crucial. At its core, managing your weight boils down to the first law of thermodynamics: energy in versus energy out. If you consume more calories than you burn, you'll gain weight; consume fewer, and you'll lose weight. This principle is independent of body composition changes, making it essential to grasp before diving into the specifics of macro distribution.

Let's first explore the 1,200-calorie meal plan, often recommended for aggressive fat loss. While this low-calorie count can be challenging, it is crucial to prioritize protein intake to preserve lean muscle mass and stay satiated. Aim for one gram of protein per pound of target body weight, incorporating sources like lean meats, eggs, dairy products, and plant-based options. High-fiber foods such as fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and legumes should also be included to enhance satiety. The episode highlights the importance of nutrient-dense food choices, like Greek yogurt with berries for breakfast and large salads with lean proteins for lunch, to make the most of your calorie budget.

Next, we discuss the 2,000-calorie meal plan, which offers more flexibility and sustainability, particularly for those with higher metabolic rates. This plan allows for a more balanced intake of macros, providing the energy needed for both daily activities and workouts. You can include a wider variety of foods, including starchy carbs like pasta and bread, and still stay within your calorie limits. This flexibility makes it easier to adhere to the plan long-term, especially when you factor in occasional indulgences.

For muscle-building enthusiasts, the 3,000-calorie meal plan is ideal. This higher calorie count allows for significant increases in both fats and carbohydrates while maintaining adequate protein intake. The key is to plan and track your intake to avoid overconsumption. Incorporating frequent meals and calorie-dense foods, such as nuts and avocados, can help you meet your higher calorie demands efficiently. The episode provides practical tips for scaling your meal plan based on individual needs, activity levels, and body types.

Intermittent fasting is another topic covered in the episode. This eating pattern can be beneficial for managing hunger and improving metabolic health. Practical tips include starting with a 12-hour fasting window and gradually increasing it to 16 hours, allowing your body to adapt. Listening to your body's biofeedback and making smart adjustments is essential for maintaining a balanced diet while following intermittent fasting.

In addition to these topics, the episode offers valuable resources for listeners. Sample meal plans and food lists are available for those interested, making it easier to implement the discussed strategies. The importance of tracking your food intake and adjusting based on your body's response is emphasized throughout the episode.

In summary, this episode is a treasure trove of information for anyone looking to optimize their meal planning for various fitness goals. Whether you're aiming for fat loss, muscle gain, or overall health, the practical tips and personalized strategies discussed can help you achieve your objectives. Remember, meal planning is a skill that requires practice and adjustments, but with the right knowledge and tools, you can make it work for you.

If you want to dive deeper into the specifics of meal planning and macro allocation, don't miss this episode. It offers a clear blueprint for structuring your nutrition to support your fitness goals. Plus, you'll gain insights into the science behind different eating patterns and how to make sustainable changes to your diet. Listen to this episode and take the first step towards mastering your meal planning!

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👩‍💻 Schedule a FREE nutrition/training audit with Philip

👥 Join our Facebook community for support, live Q&As, & challenges

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:00

What is the optimal way to allocate your calories for fat loss, muscle gain or maintenance? In this episode, you'll learn how to distribute your macros for different calorie levels, the key differences between them and practical tips to make your meal plan both simple and foolproof. Learn how to master your meal planning on today's episode. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry

Philip Pape  00:41

so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The Whitson weights podcast in our last episode 181 How not to be skinny fat and week with Adrian McDonald. You learn the real reasons that you might be skinny, fat and weak right now and what to do to get strong to feel energize, nourish your training and your body and build that lean, well muscled physique you're going for. Adrian shared his personal journey with body dysmorphia, so you could come away with strategies for a healthier, more positive self image. Today, for Episode 182, how to allocate 1200 2003 1000 calories in your meal plan plus hit your protein, we're tackling a topic that comes up constantly with my coaching clients and with my listeners, how to allocate calories for optimal results, we get questions all the time about meal planning, you know, how do I set up my macros for fat loss? What's the best way to distribute my calories if I'm trying to build muscle. And the truth is, there's a lot of conflicting information there about meal planning, and setting your macros. And the real big thing here that I want you to get out of this episode is meal planning itself is a skill, it's very personal to you, that's the approach that we take to be given a meal plan is like being given a blank workout template that hasn't been personalized for you. It might work in the short term, but it's not sustainable and probably is not going to match you your preferences, your lifestyle, the things that you enjoy about food, and so on. And then you have the conflicting information where some people say, you have to eat six small meals a day, you know, just okay metabolism. Others claim intermittent fasting is the key to burning fat. And then there's you know, cutting out carbs, and cutting out fat and all those sorts of things. And all of which is I'll call it prescriptive and restrictive. Whereas what we want to do is develop an open ability to put this together for yourself based on your goals and your preferences. And I want to cut through the noise, I want to give you evidence based practical strategies that you can implement today. Because you can follow the most scientifically optimal, you know, program meal plan, take the right supplements. But if your nutrition is off, you're never going to achieve the physique that you want. So this is more than just hey, here are the meal plans you can put together. This is what's behind that. Now, when you do nail down your nutrition, everything else becomes easier, right you have more energy to crush those workouts, you can recover faster, you can start seeing changes that you want to see, because you're in control. So whether you're cutting, you're bulking you're maintaining this episode's gonna give you a clear blueprint for how to set up your meal plan for success. And we're going to do it by allocating calories and macros at three different levels. These are totally random, but I picked them because they cover the spectrum where most people fall 1200 is really on the very low end. 2000 is kind of in the middle. And then 3000 is a little bit on the upper end for most people. And then you can find the approach that works for you based on your goals and lifestyle within those levels. And so by the end of this episode, you're going to know exactly how to structure your meal plan your nutrition to optimize whatever it is fat loss, muscle gain, performance, health, whatever. And before I get into this, I just thought of something. I have a guide that I've created for private clients that has sample meal plans. It has foods by macro, and it has foods by protein density. If you want that just join my email list and then reply and say, Hey, give me your meal plan guide. To join my list. Go to Whitson weights.com/email or click the link in the show notes. Again, go to Whitson weights.com/email You'll get a welcome email and then just reply to Hey, Philip, I heard you on the podcast. Can you give me that meal planning guide and I'll be happy to send it to you. All right, get ready to take notes and let's dive in today's episode how to allocate 1200 2003 1000 calories in your meal plan plus hit your protein. So first, we have to talk about the basics of energy balance as a refresher, because at its core, managing your weight managing your mass that the amount that gravity pulls you into the earth, right that's really all that is, comes down to the first law of thermodynamics energy in vs energy out. If you consume more calories than you burn, you're going to gain weight. You consume fewer calories than you burn. You're going to lose weight If you consume the same, you're gonna maintain your weight. And this is independent of everything else of body composition of fat loss building muscle, right? This is purely the weight on the scale. And as much as we talk about fat loss versus weight loss, fat loss being more important, we still have to understand energy balance and how that affects this whole thing. And so this might seem simplistic, right. And there are certainly other factors that influenced body composition, like the macronutrient, split the amount of protein you have, and then all the things like sleep stress, even your genetics, at the end of the day, calories are king when it comes to weight change. Understanding that it's a lot, you know, it's easy to say that, and then there are practical things that come in place that actually make it challenging for people, especially in the what we call obesogenic environment in the western world with easy access to food, that makes it challenging to actually control those variables. And that's the key distinction here. Now, if we look at studies, right, I like to call on studies, there's a meta analysis from 2017, that looked at 400 Weight Loss studies and found that the only consistent predictor of weight loss was calorie intake. Okay. So again, not a surprise, it wasn't low carbs, it wasn't low fat, it wasn't intermittent fasting, it wasn't exercise, the participants who lost the most weight were the ones who stuck to a deficit, regardless of what they follow. Now, you might say, Okay, that's great. The problem is maintaining the weight. Yeah, that's a whole separate thing. We're not going to get into that in detail here. I just wanted to cover the fact that calories are important for energy balance. Now, before you get caught up in the details of like meal timing of food composition, you have to have a handle on this. And that's why I'm starting here. Because if you don't know, your maintenance calories, your total daily energy expenditure, right, the number of calories that you burn in a day. And that includes your basal metabolic rate, your activity level, the thermic effect of feeding for your food, it includes everything, it's the whole pie, everything you burn in a day, if you don't know that, it's very hard to decide where to go from there. And most people who reach out to me saying, I've struggled, you know, to lose weight, right hit a plateau. The first question I ask is, are you tracking, and usually it's either, well, I'm using my fitness pal and I track my food, but they don't know what their expenditure is, they don't know how many calories are actually burning. Or they'll say, I'm looking at my wearable, my Apple watch, and it says, No, very, very inaccurate, you have to have a way to know pretty precisely what your maintenance calories are on any given day or week, so that you can constantly adjust those calories accordingly. And there's a lot of online calculators and formulas. And the problem is they can be off by like 400 calories in either direction. So it's okay to start with that. But then you're gonna have to track your food and weight over time to see how it changes in response. And then you'll know your true maintenance. And of course, I'm gonna plug macro factor as a great food logging app that does that for you. And if you want to download macro factor, use my code, Whitson weights get an extra three week on the free trial. And it's the only app I know that really does this correctly, it determines your true maintenance calories, doesn't just give you an estimate. And then it will go up and down based on your activity, what you're eating, how your lifestyle changes, whether you're in fat loss or not, right. And then once you do that you can maintain for a few weeks and say, Okay, I'm ready for fat loss, I'm gonna go ahead and set a goal to lose fat at a rate of x, maybe it's half a percent of my body weight a week. And that's going to require a certain deficit. And there you go. And that'll determine what calories and macros you then need. And that determines what you need for your meal plan, right when you put your meal plan together. So when I work with clients, and when we talk about our physique university, you know, sometimes I'll have a new client that isn't too familiar with the podcast or what we do, and they'll come in and they want to lose fat right away. We say, Well, hold on, let's determine your maintenance calories first, and then go after it. And then the other. The other question is, well, do you give me a meal plan? Like no, I don't give you a meal plan. I want you to put together your own meal plan based on what you enjoy, what your timing is, what your preferences are for like level of protein and fat, things like that, within some constraints, right within some boundaries, of course, within some general guidelines of 80%, Whole Foods, 20%, indulgences, things like that. But at the end of the day, you can eat whatever you want, as long as it fits your personal goal for your meal plan which is calories, macros, and micronutrients for the most part Other than that, it's things like timing, and oftentimes a meal plan will have timing in there it'll you'll have like in my pre workout, my post workout, my lunch, my midday mid afternoon snack, my dinner, for example. You don't have to it could just say like, here's four meals in the day, figure out where you want them. But whatever you do for your meal plan, you know, calories are the foundation, then the macros, and then the micros and timing and all that kind of fill in the gaps. And it's just a starting point because whatever your day one meal plan is, you might find that it doesn't work for you in some way and and you're gonna have to swap it out, right, and you know, swap one food for another change around the timing, reallocate the calories and the macros. So let's start with the lowest level of calories, because I know that can be the most challenging of all. And I want to start with the good stuff just right away. Okay, let's say you're in a fat loss phase. And you've determined that 1200 calories is the right target for you. And I will say 1200, the more I've worked with clients, the more that this is generally a very, very low number, almost the rock bottom lowest amount of calories that I would recommend for anybody. And it's usually when you have a slightly low metabolism to begin with, and you're trying to go moderate to aggressive. Other than that, I am generally seeing most people higher than this, you know, more more like 15 to 1800 calories. Okay, and again, it depends on your weight, right depends on your starting point depends on how aggressive you're going, but slightly lower than 1200, you're gonna start to run into some malnutrition. And it's hard to get protein with having much of anything else, you know what I mean? Like just practically, these absolute numbers do have some significance, right? Even if you are 100 pound female, and your metabolism is only, you know, 1400 calories, we still have to understand there are practical limitations to being able to eat enough nutrients and different foods and macros, when you go too low in calories. Alright, so having said that out of the way, I'm starting with 1200, because it's kind of the rock bottom, and it has the most restrictions on you, and we're going to make it work anyway. And then from there, it should get easier, the more calories you have. So again, you might be smaller frames, you know, more petite person, you might have a slower metabolism, you might just be looking to go pretty aggressively from a moderate level of metabolism. Okay, it's probably gonna be a very specific reason for that. And it's important to be strategic then with how you allocate the calories. So we always start with protein, right? Protein is the most important macronutrient when you're in a deficit, because it helps you preserve that lean muscle mass, it helps you stay forward, it helps you stay satisfied, it burns the most calories of all the macros, right. And that means you only have so many calories to work with, you're going to be taken away from fats and carbs, because protein is number one. So keep that in mind. Most people when they're down at this level of calories, it ends up being a fairly low carb diet anyway, not because carbs are bad, but because you don't have room for them once you allocate so many of your calories to protein. So if we're going for something like that magic, you know, one gram per pound of protein of lean body mass or one gram, we're gonna make it simple. One gram of protein per pound of target bodyweight, right. So if you're 150 pounds, and you're trying to lose 20 pounds, go to 130, we're gonna go about 130 grams of protein, right? When you multiply that by that four, multiply that by four, you get, what 520 calories. So actually, you don't have these Aerohive these numbers right now, I'm just doing them in my head. But 520 Out of the 1200 calories, notice how much that is, that's almost 50% of your calories. Right? It might seem like a lot in percentage wise, if you were to use like zone or some other percentage based system. It sounds like a lot of protein, but it's actually a very good balanced level, that will make a difference in holding on to that muscle on your results and how you feel and it's probably going to make it a lot easier to get through the dieting phase, just because of the types of foods now you're going to be eating good protein sources like lean meats, right chicken, turkey, fish, lean beef, eggs that you know the challenge with eggs, of course, his whole eggs are roughly the same amount of protein and fat. So if you eat a bunch of eggs, you're also going to have a lot of fat for the ride. And that's why I like adding an egg whites along with whole eggs to kind of dilute it toward more protein. Things like Greek yogurt, or cottage cheese in the dairy department, right? Tofu Satan, right, all the soy based stuff if you're plant based protein powder, of course, like whey protein, casein protein, plant based proteins, and then all the plant sources of protein like say oats or legumes, knowing that those things also contain. They're not primarily protein sources. They also contain carbs, and some some of them contain fats, right. The rule of thumb here is including a solid serving of protein at every meal, when you set up your 1200 Calorie plan is going to be pretty much required. If you're going to get in all that protein. And one of your snacks might be mostly protein. As much as I love balance, it might not practically work out that way for you. If you were to eat, say four times a day one of those might be a snack that's predominantly protein. But you know, something like Greek yogurt, or cottage cheese does have some carbs in there so it ends up being a little bit balanced. And then you can use this protein supplementation like whey powder to kind of fill it in to get more of a pure protein. So that's where we start with protein and in the 1200 calorie diet that's going to dominate everything. Right then we get to fat, right? Fat is very important. It's essential for hormone production. for vitamin absorption for brain function, and the challenge with low calories with fat is we don't want it to go so low that we're starting to harm our health. And that's where we get to, I usually say about 30% of calories. And for most people, even at 1200 calories, that's going to be enough. In terms of grams, I wouldn't want to go below, say 10 to 15, rock, bottom right 10 to 15, rock bottom, but you probably can be more up like, say, 30, or 40, something like that, maybe in the 20s, right to kind of keep it a little lower fat and give you room for extra carbs. So when you do the math on 1200 calories, that's kind of where you're constrained, because then the rest of it goes to carbs. And when we talk about fat sources, this is where you've got to be a little bit more judicious in your meal planning, right? You know, foods like nuts can definitely be in there, but you're probably not going to have too much peanut butter, for example, because so calorie dense, you're not gonna able to have much of it. Seeds, avocado, olive oil, you know, fatty fish is great, because now you've got your protein and your fat in there that that's where the fat can come from a little bit of saturated fat from things like eggs and beef and things like that, you're not gonna have much of it, most likely during a fat loss phase. And we always want to limit saturated fat to like a third of your fats, or 10% of the total calories roughly. And then the rest is with carbs. Right. And of course, contrary to hopefully, it's not popular belief anymore, but I think it is, you don't have to avoid carbs ever. Carbs don't make you gain fat. It doesn't help you lose fat to cut carbs, right? Carbs fuel your workouts, they replenish your glycogen, they keep your metabolism humming, they spare protein. And the challenge when you're at 1200 calories is you just don't have very much room. For carbs, you might be down to like 80 grams. And that ends up being fairly low carb, I mean, in the Keto world, you're looking well sub 100, generally, but even when we put the low carb label on it that I usually think of as 100 or less. And so when you're at 1200 calories, and you're giving almost half your calories of protein, and then a decent amount of fat just for health, you're left with probably 80 or 100 grams of carbs. And notice I'm not giving you exact numbers, because it's going to depend, you may be the type that wants to go up to 1.2 grams per pound of protein and really crank up that protein and have very little of the other stuff. You know, hitting your fat minimum always but not very much from for carbs. Or you might be a little bit lower, you might be down at the point eight grams per pound, giving yourself some more room for carbs. So it really depends. And whatever you start with, listen to your body, document your biofeedback and see if it wouldn't help to say, Cut some protein and give yourself some more carbs. Right. And this all assumes you're not changing the calories you're at 1200 ish calories. When you choose carbs for your meal plan. Again, in fat loss. This is where the complex nutrient dense sources kill two if not three birds with one stone, the other birds and they kill. Sorry to be so McCobb about death here. But birds is nutrient density, so getting your nutrients in and also fiber. So when you choose carbs for a low calorie meal plan, you want them to kind of satisfy the fiber nutrient density, satiety and carb buckets all at once. And that would be simple things like fruits, veggies, some whole grains, but you're gonna find whole grains also have a decent amount of like calories. So you may be limited there. And maybe even legumes right beans, you know, people forget that. But that's beans are like a carb source with some protein. So if you're going to have beans in your, you know, kind of serves both of those. So, a lots of veggies, you know, green veggies, veggies that have very low calories, but take up a lot of space are really going to be helpful when the calories are low to fill up your stomach to have more volume. That's super key. Right. So this is not the time where we're going to have lots of, you know, pizza and doughnuts, or we're not going to have probably lots of refined grains just because they're not going to make you as full you can have them there's no rule against them. But they don't have as much fiber and they don't have as much volume. And so you're just consuming a lot of very easily pre digested calories that don't fill you up. And that's not going to help as much in fat loss as going with, you know, whole grains, fruits, vegetables, things like that. And then even with fruits, you can kind of be a little judicious and lean more toward things like berries, which will have more volume for the calories. But still things like oranges, apples, bananas are awesome because of all the other nutrients they have as well, electrolytes and things like that. So you've got about 100 grams to work with or less. It's not a ton of room. So you've got to be strategic, having high fiber, high volume foods, lots of protein. That is the strategy here, right? A lot of volume without much calories, leafy greens, berries, sweet potatoes, oatmeal, all the lean proteins that we talked about before. And so real quick hear, you know, even though the title of this episode sounds like I'm just giving you meal plans, the actual meal plans are just kind of a drop in the bucket here as an example for how to construct this and everything I just told you are other principles behind a low level of calories. All right. So here's what a sample 1200 Calorie day might look like breakfast, a cup of Greek yogurt, half a cup of berries, quarter cup of some low sugar granola. So right off the bat, when I say low sugar granola, I'm talking about a processed food you get in the middle of the grocery store that you might like the taste of to kind of add some variety to your yogurt. But you're picking a something that food science has developed. For us that happens to have low sugar, you're not doing it because you're on a low sugar diet, or low carb diet. This is where the creativity comes into play. And using food science to your advantage, and not listening to the influencers that say you can't have any processed food at all. I'm starting to throw in the little examples where it's perfectly fine, and it might work for you. Okay, so yogurt, berries, a little bit of low sugar granola, you can have a snack with some, like a protein shake with protein powder and almond milk. So I love almond milk during fat loss, instead of say 2%, or even whole milk or something that has more calories. But if you're gonna use a milk like a 1% fairlife could work because it's mostly protein. Okay. And again, this is kind of fitting a snack in like maybe it's after your workout, lunch, some sort of lean meat, let's say grilled chicken, that's the classic go to but you can have a lean, you know, pork or beef or fish or whatever, with some mixed greens, tomatoes, avocado, balsamic vinegar that make a big, big ass salad. But like they say, I'm a big fan during fat loss when your calories are really low. I'm having lots and lots and lots of veggies with some protein for lunch. Like that's a great combination. And because you already probably had some carbs earlier in the day, or let's say you worked out earlier, you may not you might work out in the afternoon, in which case you could flip it around. But let's say you did you had you should have most of your carbs during fat loss around your workout. And then maybe reserve a little bit for dinner because that's where people like to have another source of carbs. So that's lunch, it's some sort of protein with a bunch of veggies, add in zucchini, peppers, cucumbers, you know, anything that's just like big crunchy volume, Enos has water in it, and almost no calories. All right, then if you were to have another snack, which again, this is really tough, right 1200 calories, typically you're going to have maybe as little as three meals, but some people don't like to go a long time between eating because of their hunger signals. And so you're either going to have, you know, five or six small meals, or you're going to have three bigger meals. And one more caveat during 1200 calories, if you want to use a little bit of intermittent fasting because it helps you manage your hunger signals and be consistent and stick to those calories go for it. If on the other hand, you're like me, you can't go this long stretch of data, you just don't want to Well, then you're gonna have to spread out the feeding window, and then make the calories work within that window. So if you were to have a snack on this diet, you might have like a hard boiled egg and an apple, you know, very simple like fat, protein, carbs. Now, that may not actually be enough protein. But because we're dealing with low calories, you may not be able to hit some sort of minimum for a particular snack and give you permission to do that. The total protein is what matters. So I'm throwing a bunch of little caveats at you here to show you that there's no such thing as perfection when it comes to this. But you could just get rid of that snack and allocate those calories to the other meals. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of weights and weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential

Philip Pape  23:47

whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape  24:37

All right, dinner again, four ounces of salmon, a big cup of broccoli, a half cup of quinoa, right simple. quinoa, brown rice. I mean, you could do white rice, but again, white rice, brown rice, make the comparison and you'll see you could eat more brown rice with the calories and it fills you up and gives you more fiber. Again just during fat loss. Maybe you go back to white rice during maintenance. It's not a huge sacrifice. It's Still rice, you're not cutting out the rice altogether. Again, rice, quinoa, things like that. And then if you need one more snack before the end of the evening, here's where some cottage cheese cucumber can come together, you know, or you can have like a casein protein pudding that you've made a lot of my clients during, and even myself, if I'm at fairly low calories, I might reserve like 150 of those calories or 200 of them. For the end of the day, just in case I know I'm gonna get a little hungry or want a snack or dessert, and reserve that for this pre bed snack or this post dinner snack. Okay, so I just gave you one of a million permutations for a 1200 Calorie day, but what you noticed is very little processed food, because that's just not going to satisfy you. It doesn't mean that you can't like on a given Saturday, or a given day of the week, say I have to have ice cream, I want to have ice cream. And I'm going to reserve ice cream in there. And it's just going to affect the rest of my day up up ahead. And I'm going to pre plan for that. I'm just going to pre login or pre plan or if I know I'm going out to a restaurant during a fat loss phase, I'm going to pre plan for that, I'm going to switch up my meal plan. So the first, you know, two meals of the day, are mostly protein and veggies. And then I've reserved most of my fats and carbs for dinner. Right? totally your choice. And that's how we do it. That is how we do it. 1200 calories is not a lot of food. And so making it balanced, nutrient dense. Hitting your macros as the day goes on is going to be very important. So if you're using macro factor, for example, you can tap the macros at the top and look at how what percentage of your macros you've hit so far. And if you keep them more or less aligned, right, knowing that you need a lot of protein, every meal is going to have a big percentage of protein, keep them aligned, don't let any one macro fall too far behind. And that'll be a really easy way to get where you need to be at the end of the day. All right. So the key to 1200 calories is really quality over quantity, making every calorie count. Choosing whole minimally processed foods that nourish your body. But planning in indulgence is where you need them. And don't tell yourself, you can't have anything, you can have anything, it's just going to be very strategic. And if 1200 calories, doesn't feel right to you, if it just feels too restrictive, no matter what you do, you've gone through all these changes, you've come up with like the ideal meal plan for you. And it still just doesn't satisfy you, it may be too low calories. And I don't care if that means your fat loss phase slows down. It is what it is now there may be changes on the calorie burn side of the equation that we can deal with. We never want to overdo it there. We never want to say well, okay, I'm just going to add in five hours of cardio a week, it doesn't work, the body will compensate for that. But increasing your step count, maybe adding one or two small cardio sessions and things like that, if you're not moving enough, if you're simply getting 6000 steps a day during a fat loss phase, and you're struggling to hold on and calories. Well, the 6000 steps a day is probably the opportunity, right? Not necessarily the calories or your meal plan. So just throwing that in there. So that's 1200 calories, any lower than that it gets really, really tricky. You're getting closer and closer to more of a protein modified fast, right? If you're down to 800 or 700 calories, you're eating almost entirely protein. And if you're not, you're probably going to lose muscle. Right. So just keep that in mind that as these principles apply, no matter what it's just you have more room to work with, the higher the calories are. So now let's move into the middle level, the 2000 calorie meal plan. And again, I just kind of chose this it was around number, maybe you're at 1800. Maybe you're at 2200. But you've got a little more wiggle room to work with than the 1200. Well, quite a bit more, right? Because when you go from 1200, to even like 1600, that extra 400 calories, you know, that's like a decent sized snack or even a small light dinner. Right? So with 2000 calories, you have a more moderate level that's more sustainable for people. And by sustainable, I simply mean, you can go a longer duration and not feel psychologically drained or taxed at that level. And for some people that's like, you could go years at that level depends on who you are. You know, I'm a bigger guy. My metabolisms around 3000. For me 2000 calories a day is a really aggressive diet. And so for me, it's not something I want to be on for more than I'll say, like at most four months. Now, you might be like, Oh, that's a decent amount of time. But I mean, that's like the upper end. If I were to do it day after day after day, eventually I would just get kind of tired of that. Right. And by the way, I did an episode recently about how fast to lose weight for fat loss. And I talked about diet breaks and refeeds there. Go listen to that episode, if you want to learn about strategies for breaking up the diet along the way to make it even more sustainable for the whole dieting phase to get to your endpoint without feeling like you ever have to give up. Okay, I'm not covering that today, though. So 2000 calories a day. At this level, you have some more flexibility with your macros, you're still going to prioritize protein, you're still going to be up at that, always within that point seven to one gram per pound. All right. And if you're at 2000 calories, maybe you're dieting, maybe you're maintenance, maybe you're gaining depends on where you start, I don't know, okay, we're not the 1200 was focused on fat loss, this one is just focused on hitting the macros properly, and it gets a little bit easier, right? For fat, you get a little bit more room as well. So the fats can come up a little as a percentage of calories, they stay the same, but they come up in grams, you know, maybe they're up around 5060 grams now, right four to 500 calories. And then now you've got your carbs. And this is where at the 2000 calorie level, the carbs might come up to 200 or more, right, so now you've gone from way down at the 100 level, up to the 200 level, now you start getting into that spot where you've got some flexibility you've got, you're able to put a decent amount around your workouts, right, if you've got 200 grams of carbs to work with, you could put like 75 to 100 grams around the workout, if you want, you can have like, you know, say 30 to 40 grams before like 50 or 60 grams after you don't have to, but you might find that that makes you feel great for your training sessions. And you can start to include starchy carbs, you know, like other like white rice, pasta and bread, the higher sugar fruits, you might be able to eat more of those met bananas, mangoes, things like that. And then the indulgence is when we talk about our 8020, the 8020 rule 80% of your diet comes from whole nutrient dense foods. And then 20% from less optimal choices, sources that you just love to eat. You've since you've got more calories to work with the 20% also becomes a few more instances of that right, some extra squares of chocolate or extra slice of pizza, you know, and not that you could you ever have to say that you're limited to those period, it's just that now you have more flexibility to do it. And you can, you know, go out to eat things like that a little bit more frequently. And always however, we want to plan in those indulgences, we want to fit them in to our targets and our goals rather than just winging it and hoping for the best. That's where people often screw up, people come to me and they're like, I hit a plateau. And even if they are a quote unquote, tracking, they might not track everything. And even if they're tracking, they might still go out to eat on the weekends and just far over consume, what they thought was their deficit for the week and offset it. And now they're still at maintenance or gaining weight, right? And they're inconsistent, and all of those things, even if they are tracking, right. But usually when you're tracking when tracking properly, it helps you gain that awareness and start to change your behaviors and give you a sense of what portions look like and how different foods fit into your plan. That's why we do it. We don't do it to count calories, or to restrict ourselves. We do it to give us information and empower us to say okay, 2000 calories actually makes a lot of sense. At that rate, I can you know, gain or lose x pounds a week. That's reasonable for me, and I can eat this way. And I can eat this way. And that's what sustainability is all about. It fits within your lifestyle. So what does 2000 calories look like? Well, let's say we were to have again, four or five, even six feedings a day, right? Depends. I'm going with more because it's harder to do to go from less to more than more or less. Make sense like I'm giving you more frequency. And then you can say well, I'd rather only eat three times a day so now I'm gonna squish those together and just increase the volume of each of those meals fine. But if I only gave you say breakfast lunch dinner, then you'd be like well what do I do to create a snack here or pre or post workout here or pre bed over here. I don't want to make you overthink that so if you were to have breakfast on a 2000 calorie meal this is where you might have your eggs right eggs mixed with egg whites and some arrows spinach and mushrooms and toasts with almond butter for example or peanut butter a little bit right and that's that's a delicious breakfast right there. snacks throughout the day might look like say protein powder with almond milk but now you can add in some banana or make a smoothie with it if you want. Another snack might look like you know the classic like vegetables dipped in hummus if you'd like and then another might be you know cottage cheese, Greek yogurt and things like that with protein you know, again I'm giving you two or three snacks throughout the day if you'd like but smush them together get more protein in any one snack that's how you do it. Lunch. I get a li meat with some vegetable this time you might have not only greens but also something like sweet potato and then for your greens. It could just be any leftover greens you have broccoli, green beans, brussel sprouts, a little bit of olive oil. You know this is where you can have a lot more oil and butter and things because you have more calories to work with dinner you know dinner and lunch you're going to hear from me and are pretty much similar, you know Brown Turkey or you know pork loin with some rice and some zucchini and some sauce of some kind that you like like a tomato sauce or say a low calorie barbecue sauce and they're not on this one but like if you were going to have pork, you can throw some barbecue sauce on there. There's some like nice lower sugar varieties or just have the full up and just planted in. And then in a 2000 calorie diet, you probably can fit in small desserts if you'd like them, like I'm a big dessert eater. It's just how I like to do it. My family likes desserts, you know, we're active, we keep the calories reasonable, we like indulgences here and there. I love ice cream. So fit it in. And I'm telling you, you've got the permission to do that, and you've got the room to do it. If you plan accordingly. That's all it comes down to, if you're not just snacking, and licking, and taking off of your kid's plate, and randomly drinking six beers on the weekend, not tracking anything, if you're not doing those things. Well, now you can put all this delicious, nourishing food, including things like ice cream, if you like it into your plan, right. So you get more food more variety, at this level of calories. And this is tend to be a more realistic and sustainable level for a longer duration. So that's really all I'm gonna say about that. And no matter what you do, you don't want to ever feel restrictive, you'll ever want to feel deprived or burnt out. So that's sort of the diet breaks come in, or increasing your calories. Or using forms of nonlinear dieting, which is going to be a topic I cover in a upcoming episode, I'm going to cover all the ways to use non linear dieting, like you don't just diet on the same calories day after day after day. There's ways to be creative about it. Again, not for today, upcoming topic. So make sure to follow the show always follow the show, click the Follow button in your app. So you get notified of those episodes. All right, finally, let's talk about 3000 calories. And some of you are like I could never eat 3000 calories you ladies out there. I know I've heard it many, many times. Some of you guys are like, well, that's my maintenance, you know. So when I say 3000, just imagine it's just a fairly high level of calories for you. Maybe it is 2500, maybe it's 4000. And it represents being in a building phase. This is a building phase, I'm not talking about 2000 was more in the middle kind of maintenance, maybe cut, maybe build three sounds like you're building, you need a lot of food. And if you're a bigger guy, think of this as like 4000. If you're a more petite female, maybe this is 2800. And that's a lot for you. All right. So this is you know, you're active, you're training you have you're building muscle, you're trying to gain weight, most likely. And maybe you're a hard gainer, and you've experienced the situation where as your metabolism ramps up, you can't keep up with the calories and you start to plateau, and you're not able to gain so kind of covers all those scenarios. And at this calorie level, on the plus side, you have a ton of room to play with your macros and your food. Okay, protein is still important. But believe it or not, it doesn't have to be nearly as high as it would in fat loss in terms of grams per pound, which sounds a little bit ironic, since you have so many more calories to play with. And in reality, you'll probably end up having no problem hitting that protein, if you've been doing it at those lower levels. And so point seven to one gram per pound. Again, I'll target body weight. So let's say you're 160 and you're trying to get to 190. All right, you know you're aiming in the 181 90 range for protein in terms of grams. Alright, so you know, you're talking, I don't know what, what does that come out to be six 700 calories from protein, something like that, which as you as you realize now is only like a fifth of the calories, where it was almost a half of the calories are in fat loss. So the higher your calorie level, the lower the percent of the protein is because you don't really need to change it much. Protein is almost always around the same amount. For me, being that I'm around 180 pounds, I'm usually eating around 180 grams of protein, whether it's very aggressive fat loss, maintenance, or, you know, optimal muscle building gain, I'm still always around 180 grams. So what changes is the fat and carbs, fats scale with the the calories, so they don't go like way up or down. They just kind of scale a bit. So when you're at 3000 calories, now you're up to like 7080 90, even 100 grams of fat kind of in that range. Some people like to eat more fat than others. Some people like to eat fattier cuts of meat. And that's fine. As long as we're cognizant of the saturated fat. As a portion of that, again, reminder, we don't want to really exceed a third of our fats from saturated fat, or put another way, around 10% of our calories. So if you're at 3000 calories, you don't want more than, you know, 300 calories from saturated fat, and that's really on the upper end. So we try to keep that reasonable but overall your fats probably 7080 90 100 grams, and then the rest is carbs. Now you're up to three, four or 500 grams of carbs, right again, depending on where everything else lies. I'll say for most people, you're going to be around three or 400. Okay, and this is where everything just opens up, right? Dried fruit, honey, maple syrup, starchy vegetables, like the amounts of them just get a lot more flexible. And you don't have to be as you know, cognizant of them. You still plan you still track. You still make room. It's still easy to over indulge and over consume just like it isn't any level. And I've seen cases where you are now at such a high calorie level that you almost lose a little bit of that control. Because you have so much flexibility. And you're prone to say, going out to a restaurant and consuming 5000 calories. Because you know, you have all these calories to work with, you know, maybe not 5001 meal, but 5000 for the day, let's say. And before long, you're having a problem by over consuming even when you're trying to get a lot of calories. It's less of a problem. For most people, most people have a problem on new consuming, but just be aware of that, that we always need to be tracking and planning. Alright, so what does the 3000 Calorie day look like? I mean, honestly, it's anything. It's like anything goes. And it's gonna be very easy to hit your minimums no matter what. So I would just do what you do with the other levels and just scale things up and add more indulgences where you want them and give yourself some more flexibility. It's really all it is, you may have to eat more frequently to get all the food in. That's the one of the challenges people say I can't eat enough well, you're maybe you're not eating frequently enough, you may have to eat more calorie dense foods on purpose to consume more it so I mentioned the dried fruit, but this is having more oil, butter in your foods having higher fat meats, having a higher fat dairy, so instead of low fat or no fat Greek yogurt, you'd go with the regular you know full fat Greek yogurt, right instead of the low sugar granola I mentioned just regular old full up granola you know, you still want fruits, vegetables, starches, you know carbs all that in there. But now you might have just whole eggs when you have eggs don't even worry about egg whites, right? So anyway, the meals are gonna look the same just scaled so like breakfast could be eggs with some spinach and mushrooms and oatmeal and protein powder and some peanut butter. Right nice big hearty meal to go maybe that's your post workout. For me that would be like a post workout. A pre workout might be whey protein shake and banana. But I don't know when you're training so I'm just kind of giving it to this way snacks throughout the day. It would be things with Greek yogurt and berries, you know fruits, almond or peanut butter dairy products. I think I mentioned already. Maybe it's an indulgence right that's where you might you might have a pop tart. I don't know like if you really have a hankering for a pop tart or bowl of ice cream you want to fit it in there. That's that might be where you have it right no judgment, no judgment at all. You can do this lunch is going to be you know fish and quinoa or, and brussel sprouts and olive oil same is at 2000 calories but just scaled up dinner steak potato broccoli with some butter, right so you can kind of live it up a little maybe have that ribeye that you've been kind of hankering for, you've been eating a lot of top sirloin now you're gonna have some ribeye a fattier cut of steak, a lot more calories, but you've got the room for it. So it's a lot of food for some people, right. And it can be a challenge to eat this much. Especially if you have a smaller appetite. And that's where like liquid calories can be helpful. Protein shakes, smoothies, milk, just good old whole milk. Alright, don't over think it good old whole milk can really help. If you get fairlife Chocolate milk, love that stuff. It's got a nice balance of macros. Lots of protein tastes great sweet. You can heat it up in the winter. And it's like instant hot cocoa, you can put it in a ninja creamy recipe and make ice cream. There you go. So the key with 3000 calories is, you know, it's like you're listening to your hunger cues, and not really trying to force yourself to eat when you're not hungry, but rather make the meal that what you eat and how you time it work with your hunger. So you don't feel like Oh, I'm just stuffing myself to eat. Because to me that's as mentally unhealthy as forcing yourself to starve at lower calories. Like you don't want to do either of those, it has to be more sustainable, even in the face, even when you are pushing it. And when you're at 3000 calories, it's okay to have a lighter day. And then a heavier day, like if you want to cycle if it makes sense on training days, you feel a lot more hungry,

Philip Pape  43:43

maybe more calories go on those days. Right The goal is to hit on a weekly basis is to hit your averages for the week, not every single day, you can't be a robot. Alright, so hit it for the week. And that really applies to everything, right even if you're at 1200 calories, you want to hit the 1200 on average for the week. If one day you're at 1000, another day or 1400. But again, it averages out. You've planned in going to a restaurant on Saturday, but it averages out it's fine. Never make up for something the next day that you didn't plan for don't do that. But think ahead to make it work for the week. Alright, so we covered a lot of ground. We talked about the importance of energy balance, how to determine your calorie needs for each of these levels, when they might be appropriate, you know, fat loss, maintenance, muscle gain, we broke down meal plans at different levels so you can understand the level of inherent kind of flexibility versus strictness you might have. Right 1200 2000 3000 And then how to allocate macros at each level. You notice that things are pretty much the same, they just tend to be scaled, and there room for indulgences and flexibility goes up the more calories you have. So some takeaways that I want you to come out with this episode are number one, calories are still the be all end all when it comes to scale weight when it comes to weight management. And that's what you have to know you maintenance calories by tracking your food against your weight and macro factors, the best tool to do that. So calories are king, they're the beginning of it. Number two is protein is the next thing we prioritize right prioritizing protein, especially in a deficit and deficit, it's even more important to get that upper level toward that one gram per pound of bodyweight. That's number two. Number three, don't fear fat, don't fear carbs. They're both super important in a balanced diet, you know, focus on quality, especially at the lower calorie levels, and then adjust based on the calorie needs and be creative. Plan ahead, you know, use macro factor and plan out an entire day. That looks like a quote unquote, perfect day just to give you inspiration for how to keep these things in balance. Number four, always plan for treats and indulgences. Right, the 8020 rule is a great guideline, if most of your diet is coming from hold nutrient dense foods then gives you lots of flexibility for the treats and indulgences as opposed to the other way around where you might have lived before, which is a lot of foods or just random processed foods, indulgences, going out to eat fast food restaurants, you know, snacks and licks. And just before you know it 80% of your diet is this unplanned processed food, we're just flipping that around 80% Whole Foods, the rest comes from whatever you want. And then number five, track track track, I'm just mentioning this specifically here. At least initially, it's going to give you a lot of awareness. But most of my clients when they start tracking, especially when they use macro factor, because it's so easy to use. They keep going I mean, I've been going for several years just because I love the information. I like to train myself on on the portion sizes on how different foods fit in different phases. And also be able to track my micronutrients and things like fiber, and saturated fat that can also be helpful. So remember, there's no one diet, there's no one meal plan for everyone. Right, the best meal plan is the one that a meet your goals. And that b You can stick to consistently over the time necessary for that level of calories. So take these guidelines and make them work for you. All right now if you need some help personalizing your approach to all of this and keeping yourself accountable because remember, the information we provide in this podcast is information that you can use, but it doesn't help solve the implementation for you, you have to either do that yourself or reach out for help and help as often the best way to accelerate that process. So doors to widths and weights physique University are open. Inside WWE, pu, you're gonna get a customized nutrition plan right off the bat. Now it doesn't have meal plans, because again, I said it earlier, I'm not a hypocrite. I don't give you meal plans. I give you the guidelines, the macros, the meal timing around your workouts, depending on your workout. I adjust it for your preferences, do you like more fat? Do you like more balanced? Are you from a Keto history, we kind of want to make that work so you can ease into it. Also in www you get live weekly coaching calls, custom courses on everything related to physique development. And then of course, a private community of like minded people are all working toward their best physique, and who also have fantastic ideas regarding meal planning and recipes. So just head to Whitson weights.com/physique. To learn more and join today, or click the link in my show notes. Again, that is Whitson weights.com/physique. Alright, in our next episode 183, the dark side of GLP, one weight loss drugs ozempic Manjaro sat down with Amy Wilson, you're going to learn the root causes of obesity and weight gain, the origins and current use of GLP one drugs like the some magnetite and tricep peptide based brand names that we just talked about, and others for diabetes, and now weight loss, their pros and cons. And what most people can do instead from a lifestyle perspective, because that's at the end of the day, what we are all trying to do here. Make sure to hit the Follow button right now in your podcast app to get notified when that comes out. And it supports the show when you subscribe or when you follow to the show. So please go ahead and take a moment to do that. As always stay strong, and I'll talk to you next time here on The Whitson weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

How NOT to be Skinny Fat and Weak with Adrian McDonnell | Ep 181

Are you struggling with body image? Are you tired of extreme diets? Wondering how to break free from skinny-fat struggles? 

Join Philip (@witsandweights) and fitness expert Adrian McDonnell as they discuss body image, fitness goals, and industry complexities. Adrian shares insights into common challenges like body dysmorphia and extreme dieting, emphasizing the importance of setting performance-based goals and a balanced approach to fitness. He breaks down the real reasons behind body struggles and offers practical advice for achieving a lean, well-muscled physique. Adrian also opens up about his journey with body dysmorphia, providing strategies for a healthier self-image. With his McLifestyle Coaching Method, Adrian helps clients worldwide transform their bodies and improve performance through personalized online coaching.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:19 Understanding "skinny fat" and its implications
6:01 Working out vs. training
8:32 Balancing cardio and strength training for optimal results
13:43 Tailoring fitness strategies for different experience levels
17:43 Addressing diverse fitness goals and avoiding extremes
20:41 Strictness vs. flexibility in training and nutrition approaches
21:57 Dieting among women and restoration phases
25:43 Concept of being "overfed but undernourished"
29:59 Adrian’s journey with body dysmorphia
35:44 Encouragement to focus on process over outcome.
38:34 Impact of social media and fitness industry on body dysmorphia
42:19  Importance of growth mindset and fulfillment in accomplishment
44:15 The question Adrian wished Philip had asked him
46:20 Where to find Adrian
46:48 Outro

Episode resources:

• The Lifestyle Lifters Show (catch Philip on #122)

• Adrian’s IG: @mclifestylefitness 

Episode summary:

In a world obsessed with aesthetics and quick fixes, the journey to true fitness and mental resilience can often seem daunting. In this episode, guest Adrian McDonnell shares his transformative journey from struggling with body dysmorphia to becoming a global fitness coach. His philosophy is simple yet profound: prioritize performance over mere aesthetics. By doing so, improvements in strength and fitness naturally enhance physique and reduce body fat.

Adrian's story begins with his struggle with body dysmorphia, a mental health condition where a person is excessively concerned about and preoccupied with a perceived defect in their physical appearance. This struggle was the catalyst for his passion for fitness and ultimately led him to become a global fitness coach. Adrian emphasizes that focusing on performance rather than aesthetics can significantly improve one's self-image and help overcome societal pressures, particularly those amplified by social media.

One of the key topics discussed in the episode is the concept of being "skinny fat." This condition, where an individual appears thin but has a higher body fat percentage and lower muscle mass, often results from a lack of proper strength training and an overemphasis on cardio. Adrian explains the importance of structured strength training, which prioritizes compound lifts and muscle building, over random workouts. By adopting a focused strength training regimen and paying attention to diet, significant improvements in body composition can be achieved, even later in life.

Balancing weight training and cardio is another crucial aspect of achieving fitness goals. Adrian explains that both can be effectively integrated into a workout regimen. Muscle building through strength training and fat loss via a caloric deficit work together to create a toned physique. Practical advice is given on structuring workouts, including incorporating enjoyable activities like HIIT or spinning classes as finishers. Strategies for both beginners and more advanced trainees are highlighted, emphasizing the benefits of strength training, a high-protein diet, and maintaining a caloric deficit to optimize body composition.

Nutrition is a fundamental pillar in achieving fitness goals. Adrian discusses the importance of creating tailored fitness and nutrition plans for individuals with different body compositions and goals. Understanding one's unique history and the benefits of both strict and gradual approaches to habit changes are crucial. The conversation also highlights the challenges faced by women who have a history of frequent dieting and the need for a maintenance phase before entering a fat loss phase. The pitfalls of unsustainable rapid fat loss and the importance of proper transitioning to avoid rebound weight gain are also explored.

Adrian's personal story of competing in bodybuilding and battling body dysmorphia sheds light on the mental health challenges faced by many. Shifting focus from aesthetics to performance-based goals, he underscores the importance of mental resilience and adopting a balanced approach to fitness. Performance-based goals can provide a healthier mindset and a more sustainable fitness journey. This approach helps individuals focus on physical capabilities and overall well-being rather than merely achieving a certain look.

The impact of social media and societal pressures on body image and fitness goals is also addressed. Adrian introduces the three WWW questions: what do you want to do, what are you willing to do, and what won't you do, to help individuals set realistic and personal fitness goals. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on personal performance-based goals rather than purely aesthetic ones. This approach can foster a healthier mindset and a more sustainable fitness journey.

Lastly, the episode delves into the concept of happiness and well-being, with a focus on the PERMA model from positive psychology. The PERMA model encompasses five elements: Positive Emotion, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning, and Accomplishment. These components contribute to overall life satisfaction and happiness. Adrian shares insights on his approach to these concepts and how they can be integrated into one's fitness journey to foster overall life satisfaction and happiness.

In conclusion, this episode of the Lifestyle Lifters Show offers a comprehensive guide to transforming both body and mind through strength training. Adrian's journey from body dysmorphia to becoming a global fitness coach serves as an inspiration to many. His philosophy of prioritizing performance over aesthetics, understanding the significance of structured strength training, balancing weight training and cardio, and adopting a balanced approach to fitness and nutrition can significantly enhance one's fitness journey.

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Transcript

Adrian McDonnell  00:00

As a consequence of pushing yourself and getting stronger often your you know your body fat levels and your physique will actually coincide with that. So it's kind of like a catch 22. I feel that if you just focus more on your performance and now you watch your body can do rather than how it looks, they're not necessarily separate.

Philip Pape  00:18

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The Whitson weights podcast today, I'm stoked to welcome Adrian McDonald to the show. Adrian is a very experienced online transformation coach. He's a former primary school teacher, and he spent over four years in education before following his passion for fitness. He's also the host of the very awesome lifestyle lifters Show podcast, which anyone who listens to Whitson weights is going to love that show. He's got a lot of great guests, some some guests we've had in common as well, like Steve Hall and others. So again, go follow the lifestyle lifters Show podcast. Adrian has transformed his life through training, just like we are all trying to do. And that inspired him to help others to do the same around the world. In fact, he's he's visiting right now from Dubai, he's reaching out from Dubai, but he's taught people and help people in the UK the US UAE where he is now Canada, Australia. He has something called the MC Lifestyle coaching method love that name. Adrian helps clients transform their bodies, improve performance, build confidence, and he does all the one on one online coaching to help clients you know get stronger, get toned, get fitter, improve their performance, all that good stuff. Today, you're gonna learn the real reasons you might be skinny, fat and weak right now. And then what to do to get strong to feel energized to nourish your training and body and build that lean, well muscled physique that we are going for. Adrian will also share his personal journey with body dysmorphia, so you can come away with some strategies for a healthier, more positive self image. Adrienne, welcome to the show, man.

Adrian McDonnell  02:12

Philip, thank you so much for the wonderful intro. And I'm so so delighted to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Philip Pape  02:18

Yeah, man. I actually forgot how we connected but we connected and we're like, let's let's swap on our podcast because they're very aligned. Yeah. Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell  02:26

I think it was two months ago now at this stage. So it's a while in the making. So it's great to refine the up and running for them.

Philip Pape  02:31

Exactly what the time zones and everything. And we wanted to do this back to back. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Adrian McDonnell  02:35

Even with it with the time changes they're trying to navigate because obviously at the end of the time chains in Eastern, I think in the middle of marriage, whereas in Ireland it is the end of marriage. So is like navigating a few things. But anyways, here we are. That's what matters most.

Philip Pape  02:49

Yeah, for sure. And you know, it's funny, you mentioned Ireland, totally off topic, but I recently answered a guest q&a listener q&a, and I know you just did your own q&a. And it's been a while since you had done one. And I said, Hey, it's always good to hear from people from across the pond. And he messaged me, he's like, actually, I'm in Nova Scotia. And that's very similar accent. Wow, okay. Yeah, it's pretty cool. So I gotta remember to put on my like, you know, no assumptions hat Next, when I hear and see people, yeah, you can never be too sure. Exactly, man. So let's dive into the topic. And I'm sure people learn all about you. And again, they should just check out your podcasts and they'll learn about you that way as well for that let's talk about skinny fat definitely a term I like to throw around I just had a cardiologist on the show and we were talking about how people can be you know, they can kind of look thin or look skinny have this you know, thin body, but really be unhealthy in many ways and often comes down to you know, the body composition. So sure, what does it mean to be skinny fat? And why do we care so much about this?

Adrian McDonnell  03:46

Yeah, fantastic question. Well, skinny fat essentially effed up as you you might be aware of, or maybe your listeners aren't, it's typically when you have a lower than normal amount of muscle mass, and a higher than normal amount of body fat. So this would have been me, you know, back in the day when I would have presented predominantly cardio base activity where no one would ever classify me as overweight. Yes, when I took my top off i that small little silver near body fat, and a lower the normal amount of muscle. So some people refer to it as like a mom, tome, a dad bod, feed and software. I'm in the middle, but I think we all get the idea.

Philip Pape  04:18

Yeah, yeah, Dad Bod that that resonates around that term all the time. Because my listeners know, I didn't I didn't even really lift properly until I was almost 40. Right? I'm like 43 now and in just two or three years, you can make massive improvements. Absolutely. Right. What contributes to skinny fat over time? How does it accelerate? And then you know, we'll obviously get into what we can do about it. Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell  04:40

fantastic. So I guess the root cause of being skinny fat Phillip comes from having a lack of muscle across your entire body. So often people they might be quote unquote, working out rather than training. And an example of this would be you know, first of all, I just preface by saying something is better than nothing. However, with that being said often might be a case he could go to like a group Been in class and you could do an hour cardio. Or it could be a case that you go to a group quote unquote, hit class. And it's like 45 seconds on 15 seconds off and you're doing mountain climbers, you're doing burpees, you're doing box jumps, you're in all of these fat burning exercises. However, none of these are really contributing to building some lean muscle, which is the root cause of being skinny fat. So what I would suggest for anyone in this category, we can go on to solutions and a wide OB rather than focusing on you know, burning calories through cardio through, you know, quote, unquote, hate classes, shift and put a big, big emphasis, which you're speaking about in your podcast, as well set up I know, uncompounded lifts on strength train, just in general getting stronger, because what you want to do is you want to shift your body composition to favor most of the last more than body fat, you use your diet as a means to you know, drop body fat, get a bit leaner tone up and use your training as a means to build muscle not to burn calories. So that will kind of be the root cause I would say like the wrong type of training and lack of emphasis on strength on strength work. And then we can also go into nutrition as well. But that's like just a brief overview. Yeah.

Philip Pape  06:01

And there's so many good concepts there. And they're gonna, they're gonna go off into different tangents when we talk about principles. The first one you mentioned, was working out versus training. And we can't emphasize that enough, under percent. Let's expand on that, like, just so people know, even besides the cardio, let's say they do go to the gym, they're like, No, but I've been lifting weights for 10 years, or I've been doing CrossFit or I'm like slinging these barbells. You know, em wraps. What is the difference between that and what you're talking about with training? Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell  06:26

I used to I used to work out I used not to train I used to go to the gym, I might start out with doing you know, bicep curls, then we could do some calf raises, then you could go on to the PEC tech, and then you're walking around, you might do but a core work. I know two workouts ever look like the same. But when you think about what's Train, train, and like it is a skill in itself it up. And suppose that you want to learn become fluent in Spanish. And imagine you practice Spanish Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and you do that consistently for we'll say three to four months. Whereas me I do Spanish on a Monday I do French on a Wednesday, I do German on a Friday, by the end of the three months who is going to be more fluent and better at Spanish strain train is exactly the same. So working out effectively is where you're seeing one thing on YouTube and you do that for day one, you see something else and iG you do that for day two, you you know you do a fancy circle, you saw an influencer do on day three, and no two workouts are ever the same. So it doesn't even have to mean that you're doing excess amounts of cardio, but it's more so like you're going in with a structure with a routine without a purpose.

Philip Pape  07:26

Yeah, and how many times have you been on a, like a discovery call or something like that? Where and I get with women a lot and they say, Well, do you know such and such workout program on YouTube? They always ask me and I'm like, I can't keep up with them. Because there's so many and I have no idea of the quality of it. Right?

Adrian McDonnell  07:43

Yeah. And I could look, I guess the idea is you said though the principle at least people are working out their training. And it's better than nothing. But I guess if it's the case that we want, this is a results business too. And if you do want to optimize that, you know, you don't need to sacrifice one to get the other.

Philip Pape  07:58

Yeah, for sure. And you know, results business. And you mentioned skill development. recently. It's been a while since I read atomic habits, James clear, everybody seems to now. But I was I was refreshing through the concepts. And one concept I always love is the compound interest of your habits of like, in one year, if you just improve 1% Every day, you're 30 700%. You know, you'd like 37 times better. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, yeah, yeah. So like you said, what, even training three days a week doing progressive program? You know, what does that compound to? Yeah, absolutely. So there's a few different aspects of this too, because you mentioned spinning cardio classes, stuff like that. What do people say? Well, you know, I enjoy that stuff, or I enjoy doing cardio, or I can't work out. I can't just lift weights, because, you know, either it's boring, or I don't like to be by myself or whatever other reason, you know, they like the group classes.

Adrian McDonnell  08:49

Interesting. Yeah. Fantastic question. So with that, I don't think it needs to be an either or like it's not, it doesn't have to be a case that you do weight or cardio it, there's a lot to be said he can do both, but rather like the first of all gotta just as you say, on your podcast setup, you got to reverse engineer, boss, the ultimate goal there. And often people say they wanted to use words like they want to shape they want to tone they want to get leaner. When you think about it, though, what gives your body that shape. And that tone, it's having muscle in the absence of body fat, you better more so by reps and weight to lose body type or being in a caloric deficit. So you can use your cardio as a means to get you in that caloric deficit. But if you really want to have that shape in that tone, that is where you know, some structured and routine strength work will come into play. So if someone and I think that's important, too, as coaches that I know a lot of, you know, for clients, they always like to finish a workout on the high and they just feel like they've achieved something even if they did a good workout, like almost get that sweat on. So if you do fall into that category, and you know, like you're spinning classes here like your head workouts, what you could do is add a five or 10 minute finisher at the end of your strength workout and that way you're getting the best of both worlds. You're doing some structured work, you're also you know, getting your heart rate elevated which is many benefits to itself on your end. Enjoying the feeling you're enjoying the process. But the big big bonus will be, you know, provide your father in a good program, you're also seeing results.

Philip Pape  10:07

Yeah, that's that's a practical kind of your lifestyle way to do this that I love that example because adding something in that you enjoy even if it you know we're not, we always talk about practical versus optimal versus like 100% thing, right? And as long as you're prioritizing the thing that's most important, you've got a lot of room and flexibility to kind of fit other things in without overdoing it without overdoing it. Exactly. Yeah, doing it. Yeah, one of one of the students in my group program, she, she had a similar concern. She said, You know, I love to do these group classes, but I also know the value of training. So she came up with her own idea to, like workout at home, one day a week, go to the gym, do one lifting session a week. And then the other day is the group class. She's like, I'm just gonna do the group classes. And that's great, because now you're lifting twice a week, and were you doing zero before? Absolutely,

Adrian McDonnell  10:57

yeah, no, and there's a social element to it as well. Some for members are exactly the same. They might like combine both and unlock at the end of the day, it's getting the best of both worlds. But it's just making sure that you keep the goal, the goal. At the same time, you're not always program hopping, for sure.

Philip Pape  11:12

You mentioned building building muscle versus losing fat. So we talked about skinny fat, when you recommend to clients who let's say they're a noob, right, they're just getting started for the first time. That's a certain scenario that's maybe a little distinct from an intermediate to advanced trainer who's been doing it a while. So let's let's do the different scenarios here. For a brand new person. And let's say they, they feel that they have 20 to 30 pounds of weight to lose fat to lose, which is not uncommon, right? Like unless you're in the more obese kind of metabolically unhealthy range or a different population. You often have like men, who are you work with men and women, right? Or just women? Yeah, okay. Yeah. And so you have men who are like 25%, body fat, kind of maybe pushing 30, but they're not like, you know, massively overweight, but they need to lose, they need to lose some weight to get into a healthy state, phase wise, go ahead, like periodization. And phase wise, what would you recommend

Adrian McDonnell  12:03

the good news, the good news is like, if you're someone new to the gym, and you don't have a whole lot of experience, you can actually optimize both, like they are the champagne years, you need to take the most that make the most of so what I would do in that situation is you know, if this individual and say This guy is 25%, body fat, first of all, what we're speaking about, get them lift some weights, get them stronger, that's gonna give your body that shape and that tone, and then like a caloric deficit of Rafi below, kind of maybe 20% or so. So let's just say the maintenance calories are 2500. If we reduce those by 500 to 2000 a day, optimize your protein intake, all of a sudden, now you've gone from probably being under fed and over nourished to properly fueled, you're lifting weights, you have a good structure, you have a high protein diet, and that individual is gonna see changes in both muscle mass and reduction in body fat, even though he is in a caloric deficit, the more advanced and you know, experience where the more nuanced you have to be, but I would say that'd be like a good practical application standpoint, for someone without a whole lot of prior experience, get your lifting weights, you know, build your program around the fundamental compound lifts dependent on your experience level, high protein diet, you know, macro, and micro and nutrient dense foods. And then just making sure that you know, your your caloric amount is in alignment with your body weight and with your goals. Sure,

Philip Pape  13:16

yeah. And so they do they do all these things super easy right now. I'm just kidding. It's always simple but easy. One at a time. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then they then they're, they've been training for, let's say, a year or two is when you've seen like, tremendous progress in that first couple of years when you've been doing it. And they got to what they consider lean ish, right? 15%, maybe 10% body fat number doesn't matter as much as like your own, how you feel and how you look and all that perform. What would then over year over year for the next 510 years, right? What would be a good amount of time spending muscle versus losing fat? Let's assume they want to cycle and they don't want to just sit at maintenance most of the time? Oh,

Adrian McDonnell  13:54

that's a that's a difficult question. I guess it would depend on the body composition fed up because like, if you're someone who you've more body fat to lose than muscle to gain, oftentimes I find from a confidence perspective, an individual's confidence will go from a five to an eight or nine when they start seeing themselves like they've never seen self before. So all of a sudden, they're you know, seeing more visibility in their abs, they're seeing more definition, I would almost suggest in that situation, get to like, you know, 10 to 12 for 10 to 15%, body fat, body fat for a guy, maybe 20 to 22% for female and then focus on doing what we call a lean bulk or lean gaining phase, where a lot of new research shows with our academies where, you know, the caloric surplus required to gain muscle. There was like two studies and one group is in like an excess of 600 calorie surplus. The other one was like maybe a minimum of five or 10%. I don't know the exact numbers, but both groups they essentially gained more or less the same amount of muscle mass for the group with a higher calorie caloric surplus, a significant increase in fat gain on top of that, so what I would do with that individual be in crease confidence reduce her body body fat, get them to like a live Saturday never what we call and then that way then you can focus on Okay, now we've we've reached goal eight, let's focus on adding some lean muscle. And this is like essentially the lifestyle cycle of a lifter you. You spend time code and body fat together but leaner, you've spent time you know, building some lean muscle, and then when you get your body fat levels high enough and you want to drop down again, you have a better basic go off, you looked at it better. And it's like just rinse and repeat cycle. Something similar to that. But again, it depends on the goals. Some people just want to be healthy, they want to be fit, they want to be able to play with their children, they don't want to be you know, stepping up and sage, a measure and every Marcin and Graham and for those individuals. So it's a case of James clear, like literally dialed in, what are the weekly non negotiables? What are the non negotiables you're gonna accomplish and every single week, and that could be three to four workouts, it could be 10k steps, it could be, you know, 8080 20 am nutrient dense foods, and just being consistent with that. But the more dialed anyway, the more nuanced you have to be, the more you have to like look at the details. So it depends on your your goals as well, because, for instance, I just had a consultation with a guy and he said, like, Look, I just want to be, I don't want to be weighing everything out. I don't want this to be taken over my life. So what do you want to do? What are you willing to do? What won't you do? And for some people, you don't need to be like this diet in that perfect. And the the the results been your probably your results are going to take that bit longer. But for someone who wants to take more seriously, that's going to be looking at like, you know, optimizing your train and your macros your protein and everything. Oh,

Philip Pape  16:31

yeah. So I love the what you talked about with having non negotiables. And that's what comes up to me is process process oriented goals, right? Like, we talked about goal setting, we talked about outcomes, right. But then there has to be some sort of values that drive that goal. And that's like your, your, your why, right? Like you can really dig in on that why. And then either have, like you said, metrics you're going after, which are still goals, but they're in the short term, and they're measurable, maybe daily. And then, you know, process oriented outcomes, which happen constantly, you know, you constantly get the win. So for those listening to you like that's a great, even just starting right now, today, listening to this show coming up with that first, non negotiable, and it might be sleep, it might be I'm gonna hit the gym, you know, three days this week. And so what are you going to do about it? Those Listen, like, are you going to schedule that in? Put it number one on the list? Right?

Adrian McDonnell  17:22

Yeah, um, it's just focusing on the person you want to become, like, see yourself as the person you want to become. And then every act you take, it's either helping or hindering that progress doesn't mean you have to be perfect. But just as long as you're moving in the right direction, as long as you're making those changes, like that's the ultimate wave of making that lifestyle change.

Philip Pape  17:40

For sure. Yeah, we love that. It's no quick fixes here. It's a lifestyle. So you mentioned, I want to address a couple more scenarios. Let's talk about men. First, I have seen the spectrum that you've got the men who want to get super strong, they want to push their PRs, they understand the value of eating and gaining and even just absolute force production from having more mass, even if fat comes along for the ride, knowing they can cut it off later. And they kind of push themselves up into this range of like, let's say guy who's five, nine, you're good to inches, right? So right, yeah, a guy who's five nine, who wants to push up into that well over 200 pound range, and his bodyweight to kind of push his deadlift and his squat. And then at some point is going to have to bring that off. And then you have the guys who just want the six pack. And it's like, you know, I don't know if if there's a if there's an overall blueprint, you generally advise to people I know, it depends on your goals, but like to prevent people from going too far in one direction, or like making it much harder on themselves later on, you know what I'm saying? Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell  18:39

it's, I think it's just navigating the conversation. And sometimes like just getting into their psychology and their way of actually what they really want to accomplish. And then from that, like, you have to reverse engineer. Okay, so he said, you wanted to accomplish this, in order for us to do that these are some of our weekly or daily, non negotiables, we need to incorporate so for the individual who's five foot nine and over 200 pounds, he considered lift his way to consider lift heavy, but it's more so optimizing nutrition. So he's in, you know, a slight calorie deficit. Whereas maybe for the other individual who might be a bit skinny, but quote, unquote, as a six pack. It's just a polite way to say we might want to gain some maths while you know, maintaining that six pack, but just be open to the fact you might gain some body fat on top of that, for sure.

Philip Pape  19:21

So you said reverse engineer, I love that that hits the engineer button for me, but and I love doing that right? Working from the end and going back and then you've got you're basically starting to constrain yourself in this envelope of reality that says like, okay to get here, this is going to happen. And these are the trade offs and you can't deny that like that is reality. And to do something different means you have to change the choices and the paths along the way you have

Adrian McDonnell  19:44

to change and it doesn't mean you have to change them all at once though, like that. I know that's something you preach as well, like it could literally be that you know, you incorporate a new habit every single week. I think it depends. I was well fed up because some individuals they weren't aware of just I don't like the all or nothing approach but For some individuals, they're like, I want to be balanced. But God forbid, they've been out of balance for, you know, 612 months where they actually have been the opposite direction. So to put them on, like maybe a stricter approach at the start might work better. So they see it quick when they start seeing results. And then you can have like periods of micro imbalance to get macro balance. So you could actually go, you know, and really, rather than dipping your toes, you go all in for maybe 90 days, and then slowly transition out as you start seeing results. Whereas for other people that might just want to take that slower approach. But the trade off is, you're not going to get, you know, quick wins as frequently and the results are going to take longer. So no approach isn't necessarily right or wrong. It's just rather like, what's your goal? What's your vision and what's really driving you?

Philip Pape  20:41

Yeah, I love that micro balance and macro balance. I like I like that idea. And even the idea of balance is like, it's become a buzzword where nothing's gonna be, you know, this perfect pie that's all sliced up equally. Exactly, you know, but you're right strictness, we sometimes like I use it to, I'll say, well, we don't do too restrictive diets. But there's a level of strictness that can be helpful, especially when you have a coach or somebody kind of looking over your shoulder to support you if you fall a little bit out of that boundary. So that's a really good message. Because fat loss, for example, I have people reaching out all the time about rapid fat loss. And I'm like, well, let's sit on the brakes for a bit and just understand what you're trying to accomplish. And then if they're like, you know, I lift I do this, I do this, I do this, and I haven't been dieting in a long time. And I've been tracking and I know my maintenance calories. And I'll do it for three weeks. And I'll use refeeds. I'm like, alright, you know what you're doing? Like that'll work? You know, that's fine. Yeah, sure. And go way beyond that. 1% and probably still hold on your lean mass. For somebody else who has been yo yo dieting, and they don't have to protein and anything, they're like, I want to do rapid fat loss. I'm like, No, you want a quick fix crash diet, that's not gonna work.

Adrian McDonnell  21:45

So the big thing for that individual is they they might know how to do the rapid, but they don't know how to transition out of it. And that's unfortunately, why so many people rebound after an unsustainable fat loss phase. Yeah,

Philip Pape  21:57

there you go. For sure. And so speaking of women, I know we weren't speaking of women, but women tend to have the history of more frequent dieting, we just know that for a fact. And oftentimes, you know, women tend to want more fat loss, men tend to want more muscle gain. What is your general advice to most women who come in who have that history of dieting, they still are not happy with their body image and their size. And you know, they're like, I've just got to lose the weight, right? And they're open to strength training open using barbells, or open to die, protein and all that good stuff. Where would you start? Let's say after the initial maintenance phase, let's assume we go through like a maintenance phase. But exactly, I don't want to go

Adrian McDonnell  22:37

ahead. Yeah. No, that that was literally it. Like, just get to know their history. First of all, like, what's your current nutrition looking like? And for some people, it might be a case, you just put them straight into, like, are you actually ready to go into a dieting phase, and you have to be like, mentally, sometimes it can be, there's got to be an element of hunger, so mentally after we prepared for that, so I would just, you know, go through the conversation, what's there, Wigan, and assuming that, you know, they haven't been following these restrictive crazy diets for a while, then you might like go through a restoration phase before going into a fat loss phase. But for some women, it's almost the opposite. And it might sound counterintuitive, where like, I had one client, Becky, and she's, she was a vegan, and you know, even very, very cleanly training six days a week, a lot of cardio, a lot of activity and 1100 1200 calories, she wasn't losing weight. Now, when someone says that, to me, I'm like, Okay, you might think you're you might assume you're consuming 11 or 1200 calories, not losing weight. But I genuinely love sharing my fitness pal that got her to upload photos, everything was dialed in. So over a 12 week period, we increase her from I think, maybe 1100 to 18 honors, and her weight went from like maybe 76, down to 69. So like that was just like a restoration phase more so because she just been dialed in at, you know, redundancy, low calories and over exercising for two years. So I really do think it does depend on the individual, whereas someone else might be a case that they're eating quote, unquote, healthy, but they're not losing weight. And they might actually be eating healthy when you look at their food or it could be something like part it could be some fruit in the morning. It might be some, you know, brown bread at lunchtime at some soup. But it's like typically like a low protein diet with like lots of high calorie dense food like knots like dark chocolate and so on. And if you just literally changed the caloric and the type of food that they're eating to favor more higher protein, higher fiber, those individuals they can actually drop that body fat and they're probably it's more so like their nutrition they need to diet it on. So I do think that a bit depends on the individual Long story short, they're on like just what their history is, what their goals are and what they genuinely would have tried in the bus.

24:38

Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out to my nutrition coach development with his coaching I have lost 17 pounds he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is The movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is, and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunger guide. And that really helped me so thank you. But

Philip Pape  25:22

it always depends on the individual for sure. And these examples, you talk about where someone has been, quote unquote dieting and quote unquote 1100 calories, is are rampant, like these stories are super, super common. And you're right, the first question is, are you really consuming that? And it's not that we're trying to gaslight people, we're trying to recognize that there's a gap in information. And there's some extra knowledge we can contain that we can gather about ourselves in our bodies. And that's very empowering for men and women to know, oh, you know what, I've actually been consuming 2000 calories. Now Adrienne has me consuming 1800 but unknown 1800. And that's why I'm kind of losing maybe right or whatever. Sure. Yeah. And doing it in a nourishing way. So let's let's talk about nourishment. You talked about overfed but undernourished before so we're trying to flip that around to properly fed but nourished, right?

Adrian McDonnell  26:10

Yeah, absolutely. So like, really, it comes down to some of our printables or microwaves are fed. And so first of all, a plant and a protein and every single meal. So of all the meals, men and women, we often find that breakfast tends to be the most challenging one, that an individual gets their protein. And because it's often like just they're on the go, they might have some oatmeal or some porridge. It could be like Syria themself. And I get have to really be specific and dialed in with your protein and breakfast. But for any individual, well, I would recommend assuming that you're, you know, you're not overweight, take your body weight and multiply that by two. And that'd be a good, good target for you in terms of your daily protein intake. So if you're an 80 kilogram individual may, that'd be roughly 160 grams. If you're 60 kilogram female, that'd be roughly 120 grams. And once you know that number, just ask yourself, how many meals a day are you typically having, if you're having for me today, divide that number by four and that's roughly the amount of protein you want to have permeate. So for me at 160 grams a day divided by for me is very, very simple. 40 grams of protein. Now all of a sudden, how do I get 40 grams of protein? Well, that could be you know, 300 grams of Greek yogurt. It could be two scoops of protein and Kobe, two eggs and five egg whites, it could be 150 grams of chicken 150 grams, the sake it's actually not that hard once, as you say, further up, you reverse engineer. So that'd be the first principle plant or protein in every meal. The next one being a plant. So plant either fruit or vegetables. So what's your breakfast, it could be some fruit, blueberries with the porridge for lunch or Kobe, you know, some spinach, some salad, some veggies, etc. But they're the reason these things are important is because protein and fiber, so protein and plant, they will help keep you fuller, for longer. The ultimate goal of dropping body fat is you should aim to eat as much food as possible by staying within your caloric image. And a good way to do that is high protein, high fiber and also drink lots of water.

Philip Pape  27:59

Yeah, awesome. Yeah, I mean, we preach exactly the same thing. And just to convert the numbers for Imperial, right. You mentioned two grams per kilogram. That's like one gram or one. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No worries. There was a study, I think in the latest body by science. I don't know if you subscribe to that. Dr. Bill Campbell. Oh, yeah. Very good. Yeah. No, I was in that I was in that an issue in May I just to toot my own horn, I was in there, talking about ABS and something on carbs. But anyway, the recent issue, he reviewed a study on protein that showed that two populations consuming the same calories, one that had low protein, one had high protein, their body composition improved, even in the lack of strength training, which is incredible. It just shows the value of having that high protein in your diet. Yeah, crazy. Yeah. I can I can look it up for you see what the study is? Because we're a big fan of using evidence. And like you mentioned earlier about gaining muscle and not getting too much fat. I think you're talking about the helms

Adrian McDonnell  28:56

absolute headache disorder. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Philip Pape  28:59

I mean, we can if I can remember, I can throw those throw those in here. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know what else there is with skinny fat other than, you know, get started today, like training and building muscle, right? Yeah, for

Adrian McDonnell  29:10

sure. Like, literally, if there is a three step process, I would say, you know, lift weights, focus on the components, which is your watch yourself, watch, you're always speaking about not saying to cut out or, you know, to remove the cardio, but rather, I'd say, spend double the amount of time lifting weights you do doing cardio. So if you do two hours or one hour of cardio a week, try to two hours away two weeks, and then just finally, nourish your body property by adding the high protein, high fiber, nutrient dense foods and just making sure you're consuming the right amount for you and for your specific goals. Beautiful

Philip Pape  29:41

and I'm sure you found that that that comes up almost every podcast episode you've ever done to some extent, and we have to revisit it over and over because I think it's good to be able to know

Adrian McDonnell  29:49

what record repetition is the mother thing as sometimes that we need to be reminded more than we need to be taught.

Philip Pape  29:55

I know we remind ourselves as well. Absolutely. So let's Would you know, a little more psychology and get into the Body Dysmorphia topic? I think that's a really important one. Because when we talk about skinny fat, are we even use labels for shapes of bodies? Are we talking about body composition? Everything else? Yeah, there are a lot of benefits beyond physique, right? We can talk about all the benefits of having muscle mass to the date, you want to be lifting to, like, I always say, I want to die doing a deadlift when I'm like 99, or whatever. But you've had a history with, you know, body image challenges. So tell us about your experience. I'll just leave it open, tell us your story, and then how it shaped your approach to where you got to today?

Adrian McDonnell  30:32

Yeah, for sure. I'm not sure really sure when it started. So I guess when when you initially started lifting weights, and you see yourself look like you've never seen yourself before, I would have almost tied a lot of my identity to my body fat percentage. So when I was looking leaner, I'd almost like I'd obviously be happier then. But then if I gained a small bit of body fat or you had a bit of fun every now and then you went for you know takeout with your family or you just had some drinks at the weekend, and then you woke up the following morning, you're feeling somewhat bloated. It's almost like your own worst enemy is living between your two ears. Like you're feeling guilty, you're feeling ashamed, like, what are you doing, and I fell into this road where I would nearly have to like exercise to undo quote unquote, undo the damage of you know, the the naira which involve an avocado or maybe the odd takeaway. And I would say then, Dhaka to its height nearly last year, not necessarily the Avocode site, but definitely the body dysmorphia site. Because I competed for the first time in bodybuilding. And it probably wasn't something that I was fully prepared for, like I just, I didn't even intend on competing last year, but I just did a mini course and then that transition to well, you know, bought it. And then all of a sudden, my year, there's a natural body bodybuilding competition on maybe seven or eight weeks from now, when I was already in decent shape after a photoshoot. And I got my body fat levels to you know, single digits and you know, basically peel to the bone. But the aftermath, then, when you see yourself looking like that, and you like tie a lot of your identity to who you are the type of person you are to having that low body fat percentage. When I started, like gaining a small bit of body fat, I did find it hard to accept. And this I came also, which again, I don't think I'll compete again, but I just an obsession with food, like every year a day is literally thinking about your next meal. And that was a something I found quite difficult. So thankfully, last year, I was working with a mentor, business mentor, but he also competed themselves. And I just spoke to him about that. And he said, you know, that was some of the challenges that he himself also went through. And one thing that surprised me that he told me was shift your focus away from how you look. And rather than setting physique based goals, like I want to be x weight, or X body fat percentage, yes, that's all good. But why not folks to like a performance based code. So actually, just last week, I hit one of my big performance based goals that I would have set this year, but had in mind last year, we're gonna sub 20 minute five kilometer run. And just when you shift your focus away from how you looked, how you perform, you're getting out of your own head, you're focused on getting stronger in the gym. And that does require that you're fueling your body properly, rather than like just restricting yourself. And to be honest, man, ever since I've done that, and just had that mindset, particularly the last couple of months, like mentally I'm feeling much better physically, sure, have a bit more body fat, but like, I just I feel like I'm able to perform better, I feel much stronger, and just in a better headspace overall. So what I would say to any man, I love that, yeah, the visual and that's Danny, anyone with these, there's more to you than your image, there's more to you than your body weight, there's more to you than your body fat. And like just focus on what you're what you can, you can actually do with the right approach with the right mindset. And like Food is fuel at the end of the day. It's actually needed to survive. And, you know, yes, it is nice to have a lean and an aesthetic look with your body. But don't get to a point where it's almost like it's over consumed in your life and you're actually not able to, you know, get some element of enjoyment fromage.

Philip Pape  33:55

Yeah, man, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. And it sounds like you know, it was recent. And even though you know, your, your highly accomplished, established coach, you know, we're not perfect. We're human beings ready. We all struggle with things. For sure. Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell  34:07

last year is at its peak. Like I'm not saying it's ever gone, because, you know, some some days it still does come back. But assess yourself talk. It's your mindset. And and I'm definitely like, in a better, much, much better position, even now to speak about it than there would have been, like last year after the body. But it wasn't always a lack of energy. It was a lack of drive a lack of motivation. Like, it's hard because you're almost living in this bubble where every day is like, you can nearly predict how the day's gonna go before it even starts to train. When it's your steps. It's your cardio, it's your routine and stay in it stay out. And I just found it hard. And when you're in this problem, you're just like so dialed in, to suddenly transition out of the year at all of athletes who they get some element of depression or a year and a lot of CEOs or business owners, they sell their multi million or billion dollar business, but then they just they tie so much their identity into that thing that they don't even think about the aftermath. And while I'm not the same In the sense of the bodybuilder, but it was more so the routine and something that I was married to that when I to get out of that. And then all of a sudden you see yourself gaining some weight, it can be sometimes hard to take it on prepare yourself mentally for it. But with that being said, I'm so grateful to have gone through because now like I've become a much, much better coach. And I can relate to some of my clients who have some of the seminary challenges, I had a conversation with a guy recently, something similar, or even like just anywhere in a fat loss phase like you, okay, you're feeling hungry, you're in a calorie deficit comment, that's a good thing. It's a sign your metabolism is adapting, you're dropping weight, you're dropping body fat. And it's a sign that it's working. But look, it was an experience, man. And and it was it's been great to go through them. And it's also great that, you know, I'm least on on the other side of us are moving in the right direction, to say the least.

Philip Pape  35:43

Yeah, I mean that there are a lot of lessons there. For folks who including the idea that Think twice before you go after an extreme goal of any kind, whether it's athletic or otherwise, like you said, even in business where that actually when we talked about balance before, that is something that can shift your balance to where you're, you know, consumed or completely focused on this. And it doesn't happen. Like, like you said, there are some positives, I'm sure you learned a lot through that process. I remember talking to Steve Hall, and I know you talked to him as well, like he's a big fan of, of making yourself more resilient and kind of gritty, through these kinds of things, but not letting them become your life forever.

Adrian McDonnell  36:21

You know, for sure. Yeah. And just not wrapping all of your identity into one thing identity.

Philip Pape  36:26

Yeah, sure. Yeah, physique based goals instead of performance based goals. It's funny, you mentioned all that about body fat, I just did a training like yesterday in my community about body fat, because people are always asking like, about body fat percentage, and how to measure and everything. The overall theme was like, it's just a little number. It's not very accurate. But we can use it to tell trend. But let's not use that as our goal. Let's not use body fat as our goal. Let's let's do the more deeper goals. Yeah, you're emphasizing that.

Adrian McDonnell  36:51

But the ironic thing is, that often when you focus on the performance based goals, as a consequence of pushing yourself and getting stronger, often your you know, your body fat levels and your physique will actually coincide with that. So it's kind of like a catch 22, I feel that if you just focus more on your performance, and how you watch your body can do rather than how it looks. They're not necessarily, they're not necessarily separate. For sure.

Philip Pape  37:15

I think that can be very helpful for folks who want to build muscle and are afraid of gaining weight at all, like on purpose, because I remember the first time I did that, and I gain weight on purpose. It was like it was liberating at the same time, but very scary, right? Because I'm here I am drinking whole milk or pounding down all these calories. And I'm like, I'm actually gaining weight on purpose, but doing it in a controlled way along with the training, which I had never done before. So we you know, when you say focus on everything, but the scale weight other than a tool to kind of measure retro actively that you've got the right calories and things, it can be very liberating, because then you're like, Oh, my, my lifts are going up. My energy is going up. I'm getting more sleep. My hormone markers are better, like all those things can. Yeah, especially especially when you're gaining right? Because then everything is kind of empty. Yeah,

Adrian McDonnell  38:01

for sure. For sure. Yeah. No, it's It's, it's the lifesaver, the lifecycle of an F show. We're saying at the start for the

Philip Pape  38:08

improvement, the improvement season, you wouldn't be living more in the improvement season than the cutting season, I would hope.

Adrian McDonnell  38:13

Absolutely. Yeah. Over the long term. And that's something you see a lot of elite athletes over here in Dubai, and a lot of them are saying, like the ratio of time they spend in a fat loss versus a you know, an improvement phase is what you're saying it's like, minimum for some people that's like six to one in terms of years. And for others, people might be like a three to one. But really, there's a lot to be said of just building a good solid foundation and base by packet on muscle. And then once you have that base, you know, that's when you can focus on like trimming it down while we're speaking on at the start.

Philip Pape  38:43

Yeah, what about let's let's talk. Let's go back to women. Because I tend to see, I tend to see Body Dysmorphia more common in women, but obviously with men who've gone through something like you did, and I think there's a big influence because of social media. So let's get into that thought of those thorny waters of the fitness industry, social media, how they contribute to this, how we should maybe put our critical thinking hats on even like men and women listening to this and looking at their content in their feed. Like, is there an approach they might take? That's a healthier approach to help them out?

Adrian McDonnell  39:13

Yeah, well, like social media. First of all, it's a highlight reel, and like, so all you you have to ask yourself, like, what did that individual do? Or what does he or she have to do in order to maintain that body fat level? Like for me last year, this was you know, relentless fat loss phase of God 15 weeks plus, but it was like everything was dialed in to a tee like 15k steps, cardio strength training and like every single day, so the amount of hours you're putting in a week for that, like, I love the three www questions. What do you want to do, what he went into What won't you do? And if you have that, you know, body dysmorphia, and you're looking at that individual, but then if you were told that okay, if you want to get there Susan, are you with To train seven days a week, are you willing to walk 15k steps, so you're in to do you know, 610 sessions and five cardio sessions per week. And if that's something you're willing to do you know what you might get there down the line. But for a lot of people, when you actually understand the trade off, not to mention your energy that was being on the floor, like, often, it's actually you probably don't want to get to that place. So that's what I would say there. It's like, just really social media can be at higher rate. And also you have to understand like, the way the way lightness go now and like, you see people, literally, it's like the lightning in a hotel jam, or they optimize everything, like, you can look very, very good and deceptively good, just for like, one fold, or you don't always look like that. So they're just some ways that I would say like, what's that individual have to do to maintain that shape? And that physique? Yeah,

Philip Pape  40:49

and it is, it is. Incredibly, I guess it's scary how the algorithms are designed so well, to push you down a rabbit hole, more and more in that direction. You know, as soon as you even tap on an image and Instagram, and look at it for so many seconds, the algorithm has said okay, engagement is high. I'm going to show you more like that. And even more extreme versions of that is just keep you hooked on the thing. So just people are this is like the extreme of the extreme. It's not reality.

Adrian McDonnell  41:18

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And that's not to say there's anything wrong with like, you know, striving to become the best version of yourself, but you run your own race, run your own race, don't compare your chapter one to someone else's chapter five, because also, of course, be there like that individuals been training for 10 years longer than you. And sometimes, you know, for someone listen to this, you're like, God, am I seeing results, sometimes they would fall into this bracket, but you just have to, you might be doing anything wrong, you just need to expand the timeframe. Give yourself a bit more of a runway. And like over time, you can you know, optimize your performance, your physique and how you look but you know, you can you just focus on yourself. That's what I find works best. And also one other thing with this, and this is huge, and Dubai, Phillip, and we got to agree, they're like TRT testosterone steroids. In the gym that I trained in, I would say nearly 90% of people are using some form of, you know, some form of optimization there. So it's not even a level playing field anymore. And you don't know what anyone is doing on social media. So again, no need to compare, you just focus on yourself and running your own race.

Philip Pape  42:19

Awesome. So speaking and focusing on yourself. Do you have any advice for people who are not focusing on themselves at the moment and are concerned with whether it's their body image skinny, fat, even even to the level of dysmorphia, maybe they've had a history of that, like, what what's one piece of advice you'd give them today, maybe it's a, maybe it's a little bit of psychology or mindset, maybe it's a specific tip that to get started,

Adrian McDonnell  42:42

just what I was saying focus on your performance rather than your focus on how your body can perform rather than how you can look and set a performance based goal that it's going to stretch you. And it could just be a case you do 10 bodyweight chin ups, it could be a case that you do deadlift, double your body weight, but just focus on those kinds of goals. And that way, you're going to start loving the process of just working out more. And that's the ultimate goal with this, like fitness. It's not a finite game, there's not a winner or loser. It's an infinite game, the goal should be to keep on playing every single day. And I think a good way of doing that is like just setting yourself goals that's going to get you up in the morning to get you excited about your workouts. And something you've worked you can work towards. And if that is a challenge yours, you know, speak to coaches like Philip and he can ensure, you know, guide you in the right direction in terms of like, what to follow what to focus on. And sometimes you just need a second opinion to get out of your own head. And also understand these thoughts are normal, like I myself fully gone through them. I know a lot of other coaches as well, who would have had some other similar challenges. So don't feel you're alone in this situation. And sometimes it might just be a case of reaching out and speaking to an individual. And, you know, maybe get them to outsource some of your programs, some of your training for you. So you're not only stuck in your own head,

Philip Pape  43:50

I love that these these thoughts are definitely normal. You're not alone, seek help. There's help that comes in so many ways. Don't you know, don't think you have to hire a one on one coach. There are many, many ways to do it from the podcast, to group communities, to group programs to one on one to all sorts of ways to get help. And you're not alone. Pick something that can stretch, you focus on the process, and then you're going to start to love the process. And that's how the results come very exciting. Man. I want to ask you this. I do ask it of all guests. What did you wish I had asked that we didn't cover? And what is your answer?

Adrian McDonnell  44:22

Yeah, great question. I think well, they say you're on what fuels you and keeps you go.

Philip Pape  44:27

Go ahead what fuels you and keep us going besides food.

Adrian McDonnell  44:33

So I think the big thing for me, it's just progression, like I just growth improvement. Like even if it's a case that I knock five seconds off my 5k Run, or you add on a 1.25 kilogram or two and a half pound plate, you're dead like some form progression. I'll always finish every workout on some form volley. So it doesn't even have to be adding more weight to the variable. It could just be I got 15 chin ups last week. I got 15 this week but They've added 15 plus one. And it's one more than it did last week. And you know, that's that compounding effect again. So for me in all areas of my life, once I'm seeing that I'm not stagnant if I'm somewhat improving and growing. That's what really fuels me and keeps we go.

Philip Pape  45:14

And that's the epitome of a growth mindset right there knowing that you can improve, you can do it in all areas, you might have setbacks like he did last year, but even those teach you to grow. I know you talk about happiness a lot on your show, or what it's one of the last questions I think, on your show. Sometimes I was recently studying positive psychology, there's a framework in there called the perma model. And perma stands for five things that are associated with well being and happiness, the A's accomplishment, which is what you're talking about, and then E and there's engagement, which is like the process and being in flow and being totally natural doing, you take those combined with some relationships and meaning and positivity. And man, you got a recipe for success. 100%

Adrian McDonnell  45:54

Yeah, in that one of out said, what you want to do, where you want to live, who you want to spend your time with. Like, if you figure out those three things, happy with what you're doing happy with where you live, and you've got good at, you know, relationships with people around you. Like, for me, that's my fuel happy. That's my successor happiness formula. Very simple. But you know, it's, it's often the small things that actually don't turn out to be the small things.

Philip Pape  46:19

And on that inspiring note, oh, man, where can listeners learn more about you find your work look you up.

Adrian McDonnell  46:24

Yeah, fed up. But I really appreciate you bringing me on and really enjoyed this episode. Also, for any listeners who want to learn more about me, you can just pop me a follower, check out my content on Instagram. So on Instagram, I'm Adrian McDonald. And my handle is at Mac lifestyle fitness. So that's MC lifestyle Fitness on Instagram. And Phillip thanks again for having me on. I really appreciate it, brother.

Philip Pape  46:48

It was so awesome. We got to be blessed with all of your wisdom. So thank you so much for coming on.

Adrian McDonnell  46:52

Brilliant. Thank you so much.

Philip Pape  46:55

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

The New Over 50 Roadmap to Lifelong Strength, Health, Muscle, and Longevity | Ep 180

Are you over 50 and wondering how to keep your muscles strong as you age? Are you curious about how your eating habits affect your health? Want to discover the secret to living a vibrant life in your 50s and beyond?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) provides a practical guide to optimizing health and strength for individuals over 50. He highlights strength training as a key strategy in preventing muscle loss and increasing longevity. Philip also talks about nutrition and gut health, including the recommended protein intake and suggested protein sources, as well as the benefit of consuming a variety of fiber-rich and fermented foods. He also touches on how having a positive mindset and staying connected with others are keys to aging well, highlighting the role of support networks in helping you stay on track. So, whether you’re over 50 or planning for your future, this episode has practical tips for living a full and healthy life.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:45 How to avoid sarcopenia and dynapenia
7:39 Strength training tips for individuals over 50
11:02 Recommended protein intake and sources for older adults
14:59 The importance of social connection and mindset for longevity
21:03 The connection between gut health and age
25:37 Fixed vs. growth mindset
29:33 Five fundamental principles to create your fitness roadmap
41:19 Outro

Related Episode: 

• Ep 177: How Anatomy Impacts Your Gut, Muscle Mass, Hormones, and Health with Justin Cottle

Episode resources:

• Give Bruce and Jan a follow: @bruceandjantrain

• Send me your question for the next Q&A by voicemail or text.

• Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. It’s the only food-logging app that adjusts to your metabolism! 

• Learn about Wits & Weights Physique University

Episode summary:

As we age, our bodies undergo several changes, one of the most notable being the loss of muscle mass and strength. This podcast episode delves into the critical aspects of reversing muscle loss after 50, focusing on strength training, nutrition, and mindset. Whether you're in your 50s, 60s, or beyond, the insights shared in this episode are invaluable for anyone looking to maintain or regain their physical vitality and overall health.

The first chapter of the episode sets the stage by explaining the science behind muscle loss, known as sarcopenia, and the related decline in muscle strength, referred to as dynopenia. These conditions start affecting us as early as our 30s and accelerate after 50, leading to significant muscle and strength loss by the time we reach our 70s. However, the episode reassures listeners that it's never too late to start combating these effects. Strength training is highlighted as the most effective way to prevent and even reverse sarcopenia and dynopenia. By incorporating compound movements like squats, deadlifts, rows, and presses into your routine, you can build and maintain muscle and strength at any age.

The importance of protein in muscle building cannot be overstated, especially as we age. The episode emphasizes that older adults need more protein to achieve the same muscle-building effects as younger individuals due to a phenomenon known as anabolic resistance. The recommended intake is around 0.7 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight, distributed across meals to ensure maximum muscle protein synthesis. Practical tips for meeting these protein needs include consuming high-quality sources like eggs, dairy, meat, fish, and poultry, as well as using supplements like whey protein.

Nutrition doesn't stop at protein. The episode also explores the role of gut health in aging well. A fiber-rich diet is crucial for maintaining a balanced microbiome, which in turn supports metabolic health and reduces inflammation. Incorporating a variety of fiber-rich foods such as vegetables, fruits, legumes, and whole grains, along with fermented foods like yogurt and kimchi, can significantly boost gut health.

Mindset plays a pivotal role in healthy aging. The episode discusses the importance of embracing a growth mindset, which involves viewing challenges as opportunities for growth and learning. This mindset fosters resilience and a positive outlook, which are essential for maintaining quality of life as we age. Practical strategies for cultivating a growth mindset include starting small, being consistent, and celebrating effort rather than just results.

Social connections are another crucial element of healthy aging. The episode highlights research showing that strong social networks are vital for longevity and overall well-being. Social connections provide a sense of meaning and purpose, which in turn motivates us to take better care of ourselves. Whether it's reconnecting with old friends, joining clubs, or volunteering, maintaining social connections can significantly enhance the quality of our later years.

The episode concludes by emphasizing the importance of support networks in achieving personal transformation and maintaining a healthy lifestyle. Coaches, accountability partners, and communities can provide the guidance and encouragement needed to stay on track. Investing in these support systems can lead to consistent and lasting results, helping you build strength, health, and resilience at any age.

In summary, this podcast episode offers a comprehensive roadmap for those over 50 looking to optimize their health, strength, and longevity. By focusing on strength training, adequate protein intake, gut health, a growth mindset, and social connections, you can defy aging and live your strongest, healthiest, and most vibrant life.

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👩‍💻 Schedule a FREE nutrition/training audit with Philip

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:00

If you're over 50 and want to optimize your health, strength and longevity, or you're wondering how to get a head start for your later years, this episode is a must listen, we are going beyond the typical advice and diving into the surprising science of what really moves the needle to prevent muscle loss, increase your lifespan and choose how you want to age. Whether you're in your 50s 60s 70s or beyond. This episode will give you a practical roadmap to defy aging and live your strongest, healthiest, most vibrant life. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry

Philip Pape  00:52

so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the weights and weights podcast. In our last episode 179 the real reasons your scale weight fluctuates. It's not always fat gain. With Louise Digby, you learn about all the reasons the scale weight fluctuates, the dangers of scale obsession, and the importance of non scale victories. We discussed the role of hormones in weight management, the problem with restrictive dieting, and the emotional and psychological side of fat loss and body image, plus lots of tips for sustainable fat loss. Today for Episode 180, the new over 50 roadmap to lifelong strength, health, muscle and longevity, we're gonna put together your new roadmap for optimizing your physical and mental health in your 50s 60s 70s and beyond. As always, we're about sustainable practical changes here that deliver real results, not quick fixes, not being impatient, not just giving up when things start to get a little hard, because oftentimes hard things done now make everything else easier later. So whether you're over 50 yourself, or you just want to set yourself up to thrive in the second half of life, this episode is for you. But before we dive in, I want to give a special shout out to Bruce and Jan at Bruce and Jan train on Instagram. As it says on their bio, Bruce is 72 Jan younger, and they are absolutely crushing their health, their fitness, they post videos about their training, their Instagram bio says they are attempting managed decline naturally. So I love the way kind of very conservative way they put it. But it says a lot. And there's very profound. And Bruce reached out recently over Instagram suggesting that we make an episode specifically for listeners over 50. And how their biggest challenge is trying to change a lifetime of habits all at once. And I agree as much as the principles apply to everyone of any age. There are specific things that are unique to different age groups and different demographics. And so and one of those is that, yes, you've lived so many decades doing things a certain way. You've heard different influences over the years, then maybe younger generations have heard, you know, you didn't grow up with the internet and all the stuff we have now and try to change those habits maybe have more friction in front of them, then maybe someone who's younger would. So Bruce and Jan, this episode is for you. Now I know many of you in the over 50 Crowd may feel like your best years are behind you or it's too late to get in the best shape of your life. But as we're going to make crystal clear today, nothing could be further from the truth because with the right approach, you can build strength, vitality, resilience at any age, you'll vastly improve your physical capability and appearance as well. And it's never too late to start. And the research is unequivocal that we can slow down and even reverse certain aspects of aging, simply by changing our lifestyle. So let's get into it today, we have a lot to cover with the new over 50 roadmap to lifelong strength, health, muscle and longevity. And of course, the first thing we must start with here is the importance of strength training. One of the most important things that happens as we age is a condition called sarcopenia. sarcopenia is the progressive loss of muscle mass, it starts at around the age of 30. You know around that age, I mean, it's it's starting fairly young, if you're just not using your muscles, but it really starts to pick up then. And it accelerates after 50. And by 70, you can lose or have lost up to 30 to 50% of your muscle mass. If you don't just take steps to prevent it. And it's okay if you're already there. Because we've seen that you can add new muscle tissue up to any age we've seen in 80s and 90 year olds. Now it's not just about the muscle size. I mean as much as we think muscle mass itself is important for size. Obviously it's important for physique, things like that. There's something called Dinah Peenya which is the age related loss of muscle strength. Right? If you haven't heard that word before, it's not thrown around very often, even in this space. We talked about sarcopenia but not necessarily Dinah Peenya and studies show that muscle strength declines two to five times faster than muscle size man that is, that's an incredible statistic, let that sink in. Not only are you losing tons of muscle from the age of 30 to 70, you're losing even more relative strength. So you could be maintaining some of the muscle but still be getting significantly weaker over time. And why does that matter? It's probably obvious if you're over 50 already. But sarcopenia and Dinah paeonian are linked to a whole host of problems like increased risk of falls, fractures, disability, even premature death. And I think I mentioned in a previous show how falling is like the number one cause I don't know if it's the number one cause of death over a certain age, but because I know heart disease is number one as well. But I think a lot of people have died off of heart disease, then they die off of falls, because they're weak. The good news is we can prevent and even reverse these conditions, with one thing, strength training. This is why I am so passionate that everybody on the planet should be strength training one way or the other. An older you are, the more important it is not less. Lifting weights is hands down the most effective way to build or maintain muscle and strength as you age period. Okay, I did a quick which recently, I think, well, I don't know if it came out yet. But it was about the advice that gets thrown around in these, like in newspapers and these listicles that say, like, just move more, you know, most people are sedentary, just gotta move more. And that'll do it, that's not going to do it. That is not going to do it. As you age, you've got to lift weights, you've got to put load on your muscles and bones, you just have to do it. Yes, moving is better than not moving, but not much better compared to strain training, that is a life changing. Difference. All right. And it doesn't have to be complicated. That's what I want to share in this episode, just two sessions a week, usually for somebody who's over 70 is going to make a massive difference. And it can reduce sarcopenia risk by I think there was a study that said by up to 30%. Right. And honestly, I don't care what it reduces by I know, we all know that lifting weights is going to build your muscle tissue. So just do it. Don't worry about the percentages and all that just you are avoiding the massive sarcopenia your peers are going to be facing who are not lifting weights, right, just like Bruce and Jana, I mean, they're a living example of this. Now, the key here is, if I were to sum it up in like one sentence is to focus on compound movements, like squats, deadlifts, rows, presses, and then gradually increase the weight and the reps over time. That's like the overarching principle of lifting heavy and progressing, you know, progressive overload over time. And then doing that at least two to three times a week, just so you get enough frequency in there. But I want to give you some specifics for older adults, I promised that I would give you some different things in this episode, specific to you. So the first thing is, especially if you're new to this, or you haven't trained in a long time, you're going to be a little bit more, it's going to be harder for you to warm up and recover, right, you're going to have your joints, your connective tissue are just not what they were when you were younger. And so you may need to do a little more more warm up, you may need to ease into not only this session, but whatever weights you're trying to start with, when you first start lifting like you know, you don't have to go all out. And chances are, you're probably not in a position where you want to do that anyway, but it's just worth mentioning. The second thing is that I firmly strongly believe in this compound lifts, which are ideal for building strength anyway, compound lifts like squats, deadlifts, anything with multiple joints, with free weights, barbells, you know, dumbbells? Yeah, maybe cables and machines, but mainly barbells. And free weights are going to build so much balance, and so much coordination, and make you an independent person who's better at life, using the full range of motion using your entire system. It's how you function in the real world. And for the over 50 population, I think that almost becomes the top priority over anything. Yeah, even if you want to lose some weight and look good, and whatever, I'm guessing by the time you're 60 7080, you really just want to be able to be strong. And if you get hit by a slow moving car, you're gonna get up and be fine. As opposed to having your hips shattered into a million pieces, like these are really life changing things because once those things happen, it leads to going into the hospital, being on medication, getting pneumonia, you know, polypharmacy, all the things that we are associated with, quote unquote, old people, and you are taking control of your age by being a strong MF ER for the rest of your life. Right. But, you know, don't just start with any old hypertrophy bodybuilding program, like, really consider using compound lifts early on, and that yes, includes barbells. And I think that's one of the best tools for older folks. Right? And it might sound like the opposite of what a lot of people think, Oh, is that is that safe? Are you gonna hurt your back? No, no, that's how you get strong. Alright, the next thing is recovery time and kind of the, how you spread your workouts across the week, older folks take longer to recover. I'm in my 40s and I already can see that compared to when I was in my 30s or 20s. And so this might mean you need to stretch out your program. So if you're following it for A week program, you might stretch it out over six days or seven days, or three days a week program, you do it two days a week and you stretch it, things like that. Having shorter sessions, maybe you want a couple sessions a day that are really short, there's a lot of different ways of slicing, you're going to have to make it work for you. The next one is I have for you is as much as you want to progressively overload. So session to session, you want to add weight to the bar to the dumbbells, whatever it has to be appropriate has to be just the right amount to push you but not too much. I feel like there's a propensity to try to wanting to jump too much. And that's one of the biggest reasons people fail to reps and feel like they're stalling out. So increased by the appropriate load. And then the last thing is just don't be stupid. I mean, in your 50s, you're in your 60s, Junior 70s, you don't have the same tolerance for getting injured. And for the time that it takes to rehab from an injury, as you did when you were an idiot, 20 year old. Okay, so you're not an idiot, 20 year old, you're very wise, over 50 year old, so don't be stupid. So that's that's strength training. Now, strength training provides the stimulus for building and maintaining muscle, it is a non negotiable. But to actually build new muscle tissue, you need the raw materials for that. And that's our protein comes in. All right, protein is made up of amino acids. These are the building blocks of muscle. When you eat protein, your body then breaks it down and uses those amino acids to repair and build new muscle fibers. But as you age, your body becomes less efficient at doing that. It's called muscle protein synthesis. And the phenomenon of getting less efficient, is called anabolic resistance. We see this in women getting older, we see this just in general as we get older. And anabolic resistance means you need more protein to get the same effect. As a younger person, you're just less efficient with it. And the current RDA for protein is abysmally low, it's like point eight grams per kilogram, which would be like point four grams per pound. But for you know, for anybody, let alone older adults who are active or lifting, this is woefully inadequate. Like that's just survival level, there's actually position stance and plenty of studies related to aging populations for older adults that are in line with what I always recommend anyway for most people, and that is around the one gram per pound, right, so like point seven to one grams per pound of body weight. Or that's like 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kilogram of body weight. So if you weigh 150 pounds, that's anywhere from like 100 to 150. You know, in that range, chances are, you're far below that. And if not, if you've been paying attention to this for any length of time, then you've probably gotten into where you need to be. And if you are, let's say you're very overweight, just go by your target body weight, your ideal body weight, that's total protein, then we also have to consider you know how protein is distributed. And the more science we've discovered on this shows us that what's more important is that you get a certain minimum when you eat but not necessarily a maximum. And you don't have to necessarily spread it out. You don't have to force spread it out throughout the day, two, three meals a day with protein is good enough for most people, as long as you get the total, right, you don't have to eat six times seven times, just try to get around 20 to 30 grams or more protein per meal. And don't worry about the other other the other stuff leucine threshold and all that stuff. So total protein, point seven, one gram per pound, eat it across anywhere from like two to five meals a day. And focus on high quality protein, really, I mean protein from anywhere, but I'm saying that not like not all collagen protein, for example. You want sources like eggs, dairy, meat, fish, poultry, and then all the plant sources of protein as well. And of course, whey protein is a great way to supplement if you're having trouble getting enough of it. And with my experience with older adults, appetite seems to be lower as we age, right, you might have trouble eating as much. And so using liquid forms using, you know, pre digested processed forms of some foods actually could be helpful. And it's perfectly fine. Right? So whey casein, things like that, making a smoothie making a shake. So that's Protein Protein is massive. If you're not getting enough, start tracking your food so you can see how much you get. And then set the target. My favorite app for this is called macro factor. All one word macro factor. Yes, it's a food logging app. But it also tells you what your metabolism is. So you know if you need to eat more or less for your goal, and if you're trying to build muscle, if you're trying to do what Bruce and Jan are doing. It helps to be tracking so that you know you're eating enough. You've got enough energy, you've got enough protein, right? That you're not selling yourself short, that you've got enough carbs to support this muscle building process. So macro factor, download it, use my code, Whitson weights, I'll throw it in the show notes. So you have it. My code, Whitson weights all one word will get you a two week free trial. It is a paid app, but all the best apps of course are going to be paid and it's more affordable than you can imagine. So use that to track. The next thing I want to talk about. Out is. So we talked about food, we talked about building muscle, I want to talk about social connection, longevity, purpose, things like a little bit more on the mindset side that really come into play as we get older. And I'm seeing this now in my 40s. And I can definitely see it among my parents my in laws. We all know that relationships are important. But you might be surprised to learn from the data how critical social connection is for healthy aging, maybe you won't be surprised. You hear it a lot these days. But the research shows that lacking social connection is a big risk factor. And as big a risk factor for premature death as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. That's how important social connection is. There was a meta analysis from 2015 That looked at 70 studies with over three and a half million participants. And it found that loneliness, social isolation, and living alone all significantly increased the risk of early mortality. And the effect size was comparable to obesity. So I'm not trying to scare you, I'm trying to iterate that or reiterate that social connection are vital as we age. And relationships then influence our health. And this is about health. This is about longevity. Right? People with strong social networks have healthier lifestyle habits, they tend to go hand in hand. Like when your friends when your loved ones when your group that you hang out with when they eat well, when they train, when they avoid risky behaviors, you're more likely to do the same. And maybe you're an influence on them. And this is a way that you can, you know, change the family tree of people in your peer group of your friends and family. Here's the other thing, another side tangent, I know that the generations that are currently over 50 come from a time when exercise was just not as much a thing, right. And it's slowly starting to shift. But we need to make it more of a thing. So spread the message, share this episode, as we, you know, reach out to Bruce and Jan and follow them. Follow me on what's in wait so we can get this message out. Right. The other thing is that I wanted to talk about what social connection is it provides a sense of meaning and purpose, right? When you feel like you matter to others, when you're in this, like web or cocoon of support. And we'll say accountability and obligation, right. Because when you're when you're with other people who are trying to do the same thing, you almost feel obligated to them to do it in a good way. Like you don't want to let them down. Right. And that provides a reason to take care of yourself. I have friends like that I have colleagues, acquaintances, other coaches, just feeding off of each other's energy, we're like, oh, you're doing that. All right, I need to step it up. Right. And that's a good thing. As we get older, we want to have that positive push to keep improving, you'll, you'll never stop improving. And you'll take care of yourself, and you'll show up for the people who depend on you. And then they will do the same for you. And then you and all your other strong friends, you know, who are far healthier, stronger than most people your age, are gonna be the ones that are able to help and stand up and show up and make a difference. And that's huge. When it comes to meaning and purpose. And we know how important it is to have purpose in our lives. from a health standpoint, in a mental health standpoint, right? Now, the quality of your relationships is more important than the quantity. And I'm sure you know this, I'm sure you know that you can have 1000 friends on social media, and you hardly talk to them. And it's all often I don't wanna say negative, but they're not your quote unquote, real friends necessarily, except for maybe a handful of them. And it's usually better to have a few close supportive connections in this huge social network of superficial links, and a kind of a mix of people, right a mix of friends, family, neighbors, co workers, people who share your hobbies, your interests, all that kind of good stuff. Especially if you're retired, for example, you know, you're no longer kind of artificially immersed in an environment where there are lots of other people. But even Hey, I work from home, I understand the importance of needing to reach out and avoid neglecting relationships. I'm thinking of a couple of people already, as I record this that I should reach out to by text or phone afterward to reconnect because it's been a while. So consider this right now. This episode as you're listening to me, you're signed to reach out to an old friend, maybe join a club, so many clubs and or take a class right to meet new people volunteering, huge way to find meaning and expand your social circles, kind of two birds one stone, right. The bottom line here is investing in a relationship is investing in your health and longevity. And I thought it was important to include in an episode about the year over 50 roadmap.

Philip Pape  19:25

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of wits and weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and the supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique, or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape  20:46

Alright, so the next one I want to talk about as another, it's starting to get talked about a lot more. It is something that people seem to overhype. And yet it actually deserves the hype. And it's extremely important when you're older. And that is gut health. You're like, oh, here we go. Again, gut health. But here's the thing, your gut inside your GI tract, which is the entire tube from your mouth to the other end, is a huge, complex ecosystem of trillions of bacteria, known as your gut microbiome, the makeup of that family of bacteria has a profound impact on every aspect of your life. We tend to label bacteria as good or bad, right? Like the good bacteria keep the bad bacteria in check. The good ones are the ones that digest your food, they produce nutrients, they regulate your immune system, they protect against infection. But here's the thing where age comes into play. As we are aging, the diversity of that gut bacteria declines, right? And it starts from when your baby have all the experiences of whether you have pets of whether you had a vaginal birth, whether you have breastfeeding, all of those things, it starts that early, then it's like, Okay, do you play outside? Or are you in a sterile environment, things like that, and it progresses. But it also is depends on what you eat. And if you've been eating the same foods for decades, the older you are, the less and less and less diverse your gut bacteria becomes, because of that limited diet, or let's just say that routine boring diet that we get used to. And then the quote unquote bad guys start outnumber the good. And that's when you run into problems. And you get an imbalanced microbiome. Now, they call this dysbiosis, right, which is kind of the extreme increase, you get a lot of increased inflammation, but it is associated with diseases like diabetes and heart disease and Alzheimer's, it could be confounded by the lifestyle as well, right? I don't want to kind of overblow that piece of it. But having a healthy diverse microbiome becomes increasingly important over 50. And it's just important in general, for the fiber for the overall health for all the impacts that it has your metabolism on your hormones on everything. I'm going to simplify what you do about it, because that's where people get all wonky and complicated. The number one thing you can do to support your gut bacteria is just feed them fiber. Right fiber is the preferred fuel source for most of the beneficial gut bacteria. Right when they feast on fermentable fibers, they produce some short what they call short chain fatty acids that heal your gut, your gut lining, reduces inflammation and support your healthy metabolic rate. And all you have to do is aim for a certain amount of fiber each day. It's usually around 2530 grams of fiber, right a little bit more for men a little bit less for women. It depends on your size, how much you're eating. But let's say 30 grams of fiber from a variety of whole food sources vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts, seeds, whole grains, and what I learned from Justin Caudill, who was on episode, what was at 177. Okay, he's the anatomy and cadaver guide is not only eat like apples, but eat three or four different types of apples because of the different pectin compounds in the skin that will give different sources of food to bacteria. And some of the most gut friendly fiber rich foods are leafy greens. You know, onions, garlic, leeks, asparagus, bananas, apples, oats, flaxseed, all this delicious food that you should have in your diet. There's always talk about fermented foods as well, which are super helpful like yogurt, kefir, sauerkraut, kimchi, miso, tempeh, those kinds of things. And these are naturally probiotic rich foods, and they boost the beneficial bacteria, right. But if you've gotten to a point where it's pretty depleted and pretty out of balance, you know, you may also need some supplementation. So definitely consider that. But overall, my point here is the gut is important. And having a diverse diet full of fiber is important as well, by the way, fiber has some side benefits. It helps with your like with gas with your bowel movements. And it also helps with satiety, keeping you full, so protein and fiber keeps you full. So when you're, let's say you're trying to lose a little bit of fat and calories a little tighter, they help keep you full. So fiber is a good one. And then the next one is I guess this is the last big category I wanted to cover on this roadmap is back to the mental side because no matter how well you eat, how much you train, or how well you train, how many supplements you take, how much fiber protein, you're not going to stop the clock, like that's the reality of it, right? Things are going to change as you age. You're going to face new challenges, physical challenges, mental challenges, I mean, think about what your friends are going to start passing away. Like, that's the reality that we acknowledge it, right? I'm only in my 40s. And I've seen people starting to pass away, right. And as you get older, that accelerates, that's just one of many things, right? You might lose friends, their situations change. I know how older people if they don't have that social connection, that can feel a little bit lonely and neglected, right? It's just different things change, you're not working anymore, most likely, you're retired and you're trying to find a new way to live your life. The financial situation is different sources of stress. And how you review and respond to those is what matters more than anything not they exist. It's how you respond to them. So you may have heard of psychologist Carol Dweck, and in her research, she identified the two mindsets that shape how people approach their lives. The first is a fixed mindset. With a fixed mindset, you believe that your abilities, your intelligence, your talents are fixed, right? That they can't change like that is who you are. And you might as you might know, you might have made statements throughout your life that I am this, or you talk about other people like my daughter is this, right? Those are fixed mindset statements. And whether we intentionally do it or not, they usually lead to avoiding challenges giving up easily, and often feeling threatened by other people's success. On the other hand, if you have a growth mindset, which I'm a huge fan of having a growth mindset and cultivating it, you believe your abilities can be developed. And it will all it takes us two things dedication and hard work. And dedication is kind of a loose term, it could refer to persistence, perseverance, grit, not so much willpower. It's more of a long term dedication, right. Like you're you're committed, you keep being consistent. You know, you're not perfect, you keep being consistent and pushing through. And people with growth mindsets embrace challenges, they persist in the face of setbacks, they find inspiration in the success of others who, what a different perspective, isn't it. And it turns out that this growth mindset becomes increasingly important, as we age. And as you navigate the challenges of aging. There's a study from 2021 found that adults over 60, with a growth mindset had significantly greater resilience, wellbeing, and sense of purpose than those with a fixed mindset. They were also more open to learning new technologies that can improve their quality of life. And so think about how that might apply to what we're talking about today. Strength training, maybe you've had you maybe haven't trained, maybe you think, look, none of my friends are doing it. Older people just don't do that. That's a fixed mindset. A growth mindset is, yeah, this is a brand new area I get to explore, I get to test the theory that you can build new muscle at any age. Isn't that exciting? Right? So how can you cultivate that mindset, because some of you just may not, you may be stuck in your ways. And that's kind of a fixed mindset statement I just made. But let's be honest, some of us are stubborn, right? And we have to notice those fixed mindset triggers, like, let's say something new, is something new comes your way, like this podcast episode might be a trigger, right? I'm asking you to try these different things. You're like, God, that's, that's no, that's too much. Right? So when you hear this, what I'm telling you, are you focusing more on the potential to fail, or the opportunity to learn and to grow, right? And so I want you to embrace the power of yet the word yet. You're not too old to get fit, you're just not fit yet. You can't do a pull up yet. But every attempt gets you stronger toward that pull up, right? Use the word yet and see what it does for you. And I want you to celebrate, I think I mentioned this in a Saturday bonus episode where I talked about my insecurities. I want you to celebrate effort. It's great to celebrate wins when they happen. It's great to celebrate results. But I want you to celebrate effort, so that you get into the process. And this is a lot of fun, new stuff you get to try here. You know, just lifting weights, if you've never done before, it can be invigorating. It's just all this new stuff you get to learn. You don't think of it as a fun hobby that also gets you amazing results at the end, not at the end, it gives you amazing results every day, along the way, right? Because we're celebrating the process and the effort. So I want you to reframe failures as a chance to learn and surround yourself with people who inspire you to push your limits. Right? You can't help getting older, but you don't have to get old. Does that make sense? Like you don't have to be an old person. Again, Bruce and Jan, you go look at them. And you're like, you know, they may be a certain age, right? But they're not like typical old people at all. They are strong, they're capable, they're resilient. It's amazing. It's inspiring, and embracing the growth mindset like they haven't they did it late in life. That is the key to Aging Gracefully and resilient, strongly. So I've thrown a lot at you today, a little bit of science, a little bit of strategy. I didn't necessarily cover every single principle I would talk about when it comes to say fat loss or building muscle because you can find those in the rest of my podcast and they apply to you as well. I wanted to cover the things specifically that are unique to those over 50. And you might be hearing this and saying okay, I'm half hour into this podcast, I'm not sure where to start. And even though there's no one size fits all approach, right and you are at a different point than someone else. Because if you're 60, I don't know you could have been lifting for like you could have been active in your earlier years, you might have been an athlete, maybe you are already active and you want to find something different. Maybe you've been sedentary, maybe you have all sorts of health issues, right? There's a lot of different things. But there are principles that will help you create your personal roadmap. So this is the new over 50 roadmap. And these are the principles, I'm gonna give you five right now five key principles. Principle number one, start small and focus on consistency. Right? Start where you are at today is your baseline, doesn't matter what happened in the past, doesn't matter what the person next to you can do. If you try to overhaul your entire lifestyle overnight, you're gonna get burned out, and you're gonna fail period. And this is exactly why clients come to me all the time, they've tried this over and over, try to change everything, New Year's resolution, change, everything doesn't work. Choose one small change you can make this week. That's it all I want you to do, there's no rush. It took me this many decades, what's another day or week. So one small change, maybe it's doing your first strength based workout. And I can recommend I can recommend programs to and in fact, I would say go get the book. Actually, here you have the barbell prescription by John Sullivan. Okay, it's based on the starting strength model. But it's specifically for people. It's targeted at people over 40. But it's all about being an athlete of aging, that's the term of use an athlete of aging taking control. So, go buy the barbell prescription. And that's going to change your mind and your life forever when it comes to this stuff when it comes to strength and muscle. So buy that book, and then do your first workout, like read the book, and plan to do your first workout. Another thing you can do just again, one thing, I'm not telling you to do all this one thing, add protein to a meal that currently doesn't have protein. For many people, that's breakfast, but it might be some other meal during the day. Simply add protein, right. Another thing you can do, again, one thing, call up an old friend, I mentioned this earlier about social connections. Think about an old friend that you haven't talked to in a while, call them up right after the show, right after you follow the show. So you get the next episode. Alright, so that's number one, start small focus on consistency. Number two, I want you to use something called habit stacking. Maybe you heard about this, it's a way to make new behaviors stick. And the way it works is you try a new habit that you want to develop to an existing routine that you already have. So it's kind of coming along for the ride. So I mean, the protein thing is an easy one, right? Like you already have you already eat. So you already eat breakfast. So go ahead and add in the protein. Right? Or you like to listen to podcasts. Why don't you go for a walk after lunch while listening to the podcasts, you're basically just doing two things in one, you're sticking something that you don't quite do regularly yet to something you do already do. So if you already listen your podcast, and you're doing it while sitting down, you can now do it while walking. That's just an example. I'm sure you can come up with many more. There's all sorts of things that, you know, I think it's some of the research. They said, Well, what do people What does almost everybody do? Well, they sit and watch TV, everybody watches, like at least an hour of TV day, some people much more. Well, can you just do that? Can you set for yourself a rule that I'm only going to watch that Netflix show that I want to binge, if I do it while I'm on my assault bike or on my treadmill. That's just one example. I like to listen to podcasts while I'm lifting weights, not when I'm actually doing the set, but what you know, in between. So that's habit stacking, it's just combining something you already do with something you want to do. The third thing is the third principle, look for ways to make the healthier choices more convenient. Okay, one of the excuses that people make is there's too much friction, there's too much stopping them from doing it like Oh, I forgot to do or that was too much. Or by the time my alarm went off, and I had to go to the gym, but I felt like sleeping. So food wise, right? prepping food meal prep meal planning on the weekend. So you have your food ready for the week, when you make dinner, don't just make dinner for two or four, make it for 12. To end use leftovers, buy things that are a little more convenient, if needed, like pre cut veggies or whatnot. Again, it depends on your budget and things like that, you know, convenience can still be healthy, right? The big one I like for strength training is keeping your workout clothes, and your squat shoes and your bag and your blender bottle and all that like getting it all ready the night before. So you have no excuse but to go to the gym. In fact, it's more work to take it all apart and just go to the gym. So you're just trying to remove friction wherever possible. And again, this is a principle. So you need to evaluate in your life where the friction points are. What is it that you're telling yourself? It's an excuse? Yes, it is an excuse, but it's there. How can we eliminate that thing? So it can even be an excuse. Principle number four. And I alluded to this already, but it's focused on the process over the outcome. It's nice to say, Okay, I want to lose 20 pounds. But that's a one and done thing. It's going to happen if you do it, right. But it doesn't help focusing on it, the whole time you're making it happen, what really matters is developing, the way that you eat, the way that you move that feels sustainable, that you can do forever. And then by the way, it happens to get you that 20 pounds, and then eventually get the 20 pounds. And you're like, Okay, I got my 20 pounds, but really, I enjoyed the process to get there. Right? Instead of fixating on what the scale says on any given day, why don't we instead think about how much more energy we have, how much more we're sleeping, how much stronger you're filling in workouts, did you get five pounds more on the deadlift? Those are things that are process related. And you could argue that they are, they're still outcomes, but they're micro outcomes. They're outcomes that occur on a frequent, you know, daily basis. All right, and then the last principle is to get support, reach out for help, please, you know, I used to, when I first started in this with my own personal transformation, I was very much like, I'm going to do this myself. I read books, I listen to podcasts, and I started doing things myself, but then I would constantly step back, or I'd get tripped up, or I couldn't be consistent. And then I started to join some free Facebook groups. I joined you know, I got a coach at my gym. I mean, today, I have like 10 different coaches for different things. Because I realized every time I would get support, whether it was paid free, as long as it was somebody else in that same circle, my progress would accelerate, but I would also have a safety net that wouldn't allow me to step back too far. Right? Like, not only did it push me forward more quickly, whenever I gotta took a step back, somebody was there to kind of Prop me up. And then let me keep going. It's like, yeah, you take a little step back, but then you get to keep going, you know, hiring a coach, getting an accountability partner, a training partner, join in any sort of community, I don't care if it's, you know, a physical community, like a club, or with a gym, you know, with people that you go train with, whether it's like a Facebook group, social group, like a club, where you do things together, it doesn't even have to be related to fitness, per se. But I guess where I'm going at here is it's got to be people that are going after the same goals. It could be a paid community or group coaching program like Woodson waits physique university that I run, just there's so many ways to do it, right? The more you invest in yourself, the more that you get to help the faster you're gonna get the results and have the safety net so that you don't fall back. And then that behavior change then becomes a lot easier. That's the thing you're removing, not only removing friction on the front end, you're also removing friction on the back end, if that makes sense. And again, Bruce, and Jan, the couple I mentioned the beginning, they are great examples of what's possible with mutual support and encouragement. I mean, they've got a ton of followers and Instagram. And I know they're constantly reaching out and commenting and sharing things with people and they're telling people hey, go listen to Whitson weights and go listen to this person, because they are trying to help. So whatever your age is, whatever your current fitness level, you have an incredible capacity to get stronger to get healthier, and more resilient. You do I don't care what age you are.

Philip Pape  37:56

Is it going to be easy? No, it's not going to be easy. Is it going to be worth it? Absolutely. And you know, it's harder, not doing it. There's actually no easy in life unless you just die. Okay, you either do the hard thing so that life feels great, and you're strong and capable. Or you don't do the hard thing. And then life is even harder, because it hits back. It hits back at you in so many ways that are often or unexpected as well. Alright, so it's worth it. Start small stack your habits focus on the process get support, that's the real secret to Aging Gracefully, and vibrantly. Alright, we've covered a lot of ground, from practical tips to build strength and muscle, to protein to social connections, purpose, mindset shifts, all that good stuff. And what I hope for you is that you are walking away with a renewed sense of possibility and purpose, I hope, just my positivity, I hope it's infectious for you guys. Because if anything, just the way I like to communicate on this podcast is with a hopefulness. Right, anything is possible. Getting older is inevitable, but how we age is a choice. That's powerful. And if you have the right roadmap, and you have the right mindset, your 50s, your 60s or 70s and beyond, can be your best years ever. best years ever. I know it for sure I've seen it with my parents. I've seen it with lots of other folks in their 60s and 70s, who are sedentary their whole life, they start to have health issues, they start to have joint pain, they're on medications, and then they start lifting weights. And one by one, these issues start to go away. They start to feel better. They get off medications. It's just an amazing transformation. And then now you can have years and years and years, where not only do you have a lifespan you have a health span filled with strength, vitality, growth, joy, right, you can play with your grandkids, your great grandkids, whatever people of any age, you can volunteer. So no matter what your age is, you have the power. You have the power to build your strongest, healthiest, best self however, you know one habit at a time and I believe in you and I'm honored that I get to be part of this journey with you and I hope that it is something I said here's going to change you in some small way and ultimately change your life and potentially change the lives As others, alright, so I did say that when it comes to support, if you want to go to the next level, if you want to defy conventional wisdom about aging, I definitely urge you to check out and join us inside Whitson weights physique University. That is our semi private group coaching program where you get access to a custom nutrition plan, monthly workout programs, including ones that are perfectly appropriate. whatever age you are, we give you form checks, we help you figure out how to do them safely and properly. There are courses on all this stuff, there's live coaching calls, where you can ask questions, private community of like minded individuals all on a mission to optimize our health, and vitality. And it is designed for folks in their 30s 40s 50s and above. So you are in good company. And we take all the guesswork out of the process, we give you the science back tools and support you need to build strength to shed fat to fill your best at any age. It's not quick fixes. It's not fad diets, it's the sustainable evidence based practices that we talk about here. But I do warn you, it is not for people who are impatient to jump right into a diet or get a quick result. Right. This is for those serious about choosing how they want to age and making it last. So just go to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in my show notes to learn more and enroll. That's Whitson weights.com/physique Okay, and our next episode 181, how not to be skinny, fat and weak with Adrienne McDonnell. You'll learn the real reasons you might be skinny, fat and weak right now what to do to get strong, feel energized, nourish your training and your body and build that lean Well, muscle physique you're going for. Adrian will also share his personal journey with body dysmorphia. So you can come away with strategies for a healthier, more positive self image. Make sure to hit follow right now in your podcast app to get notified when that episode comes out and support the show. And if this episode resonated with you, if you got value from this episode, the best way to support us is just share it with a friend or family member who needs to hear this message, share it in your book club, share it at the gym, all your friends, if you're you know 6575 90 And you're listening to this and you're like that is a helpful message that others need to hear. Just tell people tell them go check out what's in waits, show them how to use a podcast, you know, show them how to click follow do all the things. Alright, as always stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on The wit's end weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their weights or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Ep 179: The Real Reasons Your Scale Weight Fluctuates (It's Not Always Fat Gain) with Louise Digby

What’s the secret behind the fluctuating numbers on your scale? What’s the real deal between weight loss and fat loss? How can you escape the emotional rollercoaster of fat loss and body image?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Louise Digby, a registered nutritional therapist and women’s weight loss expert. She dives deep into the real reasons behind scale weight fluctuations, the dangers of scale obsession, and the importance of non-scale victories. Louise shares her insights on the role of hormones in weight management, the problem with restrictive dieting, and the emotional and psychological side of fat loss and body image. She also provides top tips for sustainable fat loss, improving body image, and addressing underlying health issues for long-lasting results.

Louise, the founder of The Nourish Method to Lasting Fat Loss, is renowned for her unique approach to health and well-being. She doesn’t advocate for restrictive dieting or superhuman willpower. Instead, she empowers her clients to sustainably lose fat, optimize their health, and rediscover their sparkle.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:18 Reasons for weight fluctuations beyond fat gain
9:36 When and what to measure
14:03 Weight loss vs fat loss
16:27 Dangers of scale obsession
19:15 Hormonal influences on weight
27:20 Recommended tests to start with
29:40 Problems with restrictive dieting
36:00 Emotional aspects and body image
40:11 Celebrating non-scale victories
43:45 Tips for sustainable progress and positive body image
50:41 Where to find Louise
51:02 Outro

Episode resources:

• Masterclass: Learn The 3 Steps to Remove Weight Loss Inhibitors & Activate Weight Loss Accelerators 

• Website: louisedigbynutrition.com

• The Thriving Metabolism Podcast

• IG: @louisedigbynutrition

Episode summary:

When it comes to weight loss, the scale has long been considered the judge, jury, and sometimes executioner of our efforts. But what if this age-old barometer of success is actually misleading us? In an illuminating podcast episode with Louise Digby, a registered nutritional therapist and women's weight loss expert, we delve into why the scale might not reflect the full story of our weight loss journey and how we can better measure our success.

Firstly, let's talk about the elephant in the room – the number on the scale. It's a figure that many of us fixate on, yet it's influenced by a variety of factors beyond just fat. Muscle gain, water retention, and even the natural fluctuations of our menstrual cycles can all impact that number. This means that even if you're losing fat and getting healthier, the scale might not budge – or could even go up. It's a revelation that can either be incredibly frustrating or liberating, depending on your perspective.

Digby emphasizes the importance of looking at non-scale victories, which can include anything from how your clothes fit to how you feel. These victories are often more indicative of improved health and can include better sleep, more stable energy levels, and a reduction in cravings or bloating. By shifting our focus to these other metrics, we can gain a more holistic view of our health and progress.

Moreover, Digby sheds light on the role of gut health and inflammation in weight loss. An imbalanced gut microbiome or high levels of inflammation can not only affect your scale weight but can also make it harder to lose fat. Addressing these underlying issues can lead to more sustainable weight management and overall better health.

Then there's the topic of dieting – or rather, the problems with restrictive dieting. Digby and the podcast host discuss how severe calorie deficits can lead to muscle loss, a slowed metabolism, and a rebound effect that causes weight gain once the diet ends. Instead, they advocate for a balanced approach that supports muscle maintenance and hormonal balance, which in turn can lead to more efficient fat burning.

The emotional aspects of weight loss are also addressed, including the importance of mindset. Overcoming self-sabotage, reframing our relationship with food, and practicing self-compassion are all key to maintaining a healthy approach to weight management. Digby provides actionable advice for fostering a positive mindset, which is just as crucial as any diet or exercise regimen.

Lastly, the episode touches on the importance of sleep and stress management. Poor sleep can sabotage your weight loss efforts, while chronic stress can lead to elevated cortisol levels, which can hinder fat loss. Simple strategies like deep breathing, meditation, and ensuring adequate protein intake are discussed as ways to support your body's natural fat-burning capabilities.

In conclusion, the podcast episode with Louise Digby offers a wealth of knowledge for anyone looking to understand the complexities of weight loss. By focusing on holistic health measures and understanding the various factors that influence our weight, we can embark on a more effective and compassionate journey to better health.

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Transcript

Louise Digby  00:00

no hormones are often used as a bit of a scapegoat when it comes to trouble with losing weight. But really, they're still a symptom. They're not the root of it all. And all the things that we've been talking about like darts, inflammation, toxic load, these are all things that impact your hormones, though I find that if we can instead find out what's going on with those, then we can have a real positive impact on our hormones without actually needing to test the hormones.

Philip Pape  00:30

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The Whitson weights Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Louise Digby, a registered nutritional therapist, women's weight loss expert and founder of the nourish method to lasting fat loss. What I love about Louise's approach is she focuses on transforming her clients health and well being by identifying and addressing each individual's unique needs and imbalances. She's not about restrictive dieting, or the need for superhuman willpower. Instead, she helps her clients lose fat, optimize their health, and rediscover what she calls their sparkle in a sustainable way. Louise's clients typically come to her after struggling to lose weight, despite eating well and working hard to burn the fat. Sound familiar? I know I've been there, and I'm sure many of you have as well. And that's why I'm excited to dive into this conversation with Louise. Today, you'll learn about all the reasons the scale weight fluctuates, both in the short term and when it comes to true fat loss and gain. Louise will share her insights on the dangers of scale obsession, the importance of non scale victories, we'll discuss the role of hormones and weight management, the problem with restricted dieting, and the emotional and psychological side of fat loss and body image. And we'll have Louis share some of her top tips in some of these areas like sustainable fat loss, and underlying issues and imbalances when it comes to achieving long lasting results. Louise, welcome to the show.

Louise Digby  02:15

Thank you so much for having me, I'm really pleased to be here.

Philip Pape  02:18

So let's just let's start by examining the premise of the topic today, which is that scale weight is actually important or relevant in some way, before we dive into the details to to achieve some outcome. So is scale weight important?

Louise Digby  02:31

I think it's not as important as it's made out to be. Obviously, it gives you a rough idea of whether you're moving in the right direction or not. But what we always overlook is that there's so many things that can contribute to our weight increasing or decreasing. And, you know, it's not just about that loss, because that's what we want, isn't it, we want to lose fat. But there might be other things going on that might not allow that to be reflected on the scales. So for example, if you're gaining muscle, then that's a really good thing. But obviously muscle is going to give you some weight. So if you're gaining muscle, you might see the scales go up. If you're gaining muscle and losing some fat, you might see the scales stay the same. So we have to think about, you know, what have we been doing, we've been doing strength training, because that is going to have an impact. That's a really good thing. And then there's also things like water retention. And you know, this is particularly for women, a really common thing. And you know, this might happen more at certain times of the month. And you might have water retention, if you're if you're feeling unwell, if you know if you've got an infection or a bug, if you're experiencing allergies or food reactions. Or if there's just genuinely inflammation in your body, then you're going to be more likely to retain water. If you've been eating more so or a little bit more junk food that may not actually be fat gain, it could be water retention as a result of the extra, so the extra carbs or other bits. So that's something that can make the scales jump up really quickly. So when you feel like the scales have jumped up a few pounds overnight, it's almost certainly not fat, that's going to be water retention. So we also need to think about well, how quickly are the scales moving because it's moving very quickly. It's not fat that's going on off. And then another thing that we need to think about is bowel movements. So if we are constipated, and we've been constipated for a few days, then that's going to build up in your system and that carries some weight. You know, you could carry an extra kilogram or two in like fecal matter. So, you know, if you're not having regular bowel movements, then that could be something that is causing the scales to stay the same or go up. And equally, if that corrects itself, then your weight will come down a little bit quicker. So I'd say those are probably some of the main things that can cause the scales to fluctuate. And then I also touched on it before, but it's really key menstrual cycles. For women, it is so so normal to gain a little bit of weight before your period, to lose it again after your period. So I always think for women who are having a regular cycle, if you do want to weigh yourself, it's best to compare, like for like, in terms of at the same time of your cycle each month? Because otherwise, it's not really very comparable from week to week. All

Philip Pape  05:45

right, yeah, no, I'm glad you already got into to the list of the reasons the scale might go up. And I like how you said, let's use the rule of thumb of how quickly it is right, because if you freak out over a two pound jump, I mean, at least the way I like to put it is you'd have to over consumed by 7000 calories to gain two pounds of fat. So let's, let's be realistic about it. And really, it takes time for fat to change. So you mentioned muscle gain. Totally makes sense, right? Muscles denser, you might be undergoing some body re composition. I'm sure you see this as well, like when you're trying to go through fat loss phase with somebody who's new to training, you might find that that that reveals itself was what looks like a plateau, right? It looks like a plateau. And in reality, the waist size is going down, things like that. So I do want to talk about other non scale measurements in a second. But let's go through the list here. Before just make sure we covered everything you said water retention for from hormone changes, like your menstrual cycle, illness and allergies. I think that's that's really important to understand that something like an illness, something that's a change in your routine, could potentially cause your body to react in this way. More salt and junk food. You know, I always tell people, they have that pizza and Chinese food and it's later in the evening. Just watch out. You're gonna gain like three pounds the next day, and it's not fat. Yeah. Gut content, bowel movements. What about your gut health and inflammation? Those are two other things that come to mind. Can they How can those affect your skill way? Yeah, definitely,

Louise Digby  07:11

if you're, if you've got imbalances in your gut, in the bacteria or the yeast, then that's something that can contribute to inflammation in your body can also contribute to water retention. And obviously, it can contribute to constipation as well. And those are all things that can contribute to kind of weight gain that isn't fat. So certainly your gut health is a big factor. And then another one that I've just thought of is the glycogen stores in your muscle. So if you've done some extended cardio, and you've really burned through the sugar stores in your muscle, then you're going to be a bit lighter, because not only have you lost some of the sugar, but you're losing a lot of water that is stored with that. So water weight will go down as well. Yeah, and

Philip Pape  08:02

so that's, that reminds me the time you weigh in the consistency weigh is important too, right? Because you don't want to weigh yourself right after this super hard workout necessarily, when the next day you're weighing yourself and your rest glycogen glycogen stores. Oh, and I guess the I guess the opposite could be is true as well, right? When you let's say you have a really hard leg workout, you're going to are you going to draw in some extra muscle glycogen, or there's inflammatory response from the muscle adaptation overnight that helps you gain weight, right? Have you seen that where after a really hard leg workout the next day, you might be a little bit heavier than a tip than another day?

Louise Digby  08:36

Yeah, that can definitely be the case. And I was talking to someone recently who is kind of like an expert in, in the glycogen sort of area. And he was talking about how he actually looks at the scales to help him to see, you know, with what his glycogen stores alike, and wherever his body is ready to do cardio or wherever he needs to replenish his glycogen stores. And you know, that's for someone who is, you know, knows that their their weight is quite steady. But yeah, it just goes to show that, you know, the scales mean a hell of a lot more than just how much fat you're gaining or losing.

Philip Pape  09:13

So true. And that so that sounds like something a bodybuilder might do as well during prep, or they're using sodium and fluid to manipulate things. And that's the same thing that happens when somebody gets off of a diet, right? When they come back to maintenance, they're gonna gain a couple pounds just from all that water coming in the extra carbs and so on. So would you recommend this is always a controversy? And I'll tell you what I do after you answer. But do you recommend weighing daily for people so that they understand their individual patterns and gather that level of precision or is that too much for some people?

Louise Digby  09:45

I think it's a very individual thing. I work with lots of women who benefit from really reducing how often they weigh themselves, I think, particularly at the beginning of your weight loss journey. I ticularly, when you're coming at it from a more holistic approach, where you're not just starving yourself to weight loss, sometimes the progress can be slower at first where you're working on optimizing your health so that you can lose weight in a healthy way. And I think because the progress can be a bit slower at first, that can be really demoralizing. And you can kind of overlook the real results that you're getting, and other changes that might be happening in your body. So you know, in that scenario, it's often a good idea to weigh less and weekly is often better, if not monthly, sometimes not at all, it might be better to do measurements or that kind of thing with your clothes. But then there are other people who find the scales really motivating whether they've gained or not, you know, some people say that they've lost weight, and that spares more than other people, or that same type of person might see that they've not lost weight, and then that might motivate them to refocus and change what they're doing. So if you're someone like that, then I think great, weigh yourself every day. Yeah,

Philip Pape  11:08

awesome. I mean, it's a great answer, right, is you have to understand yourself. You know, I also even to extend that would say, don't necessarily assume that past patterns and emotional relationships with the scale would necessarily continue. Like I think you have to evaluate where you are, you know, today and maybe work with a coach like you who can help help you understand what you need for that phase for that goal for whatever you're going for. Because someone who says, Well, if I don't weigh myself, how do I know I'm making progress? That's where you could say, these other ways tell us that we're making progress. So why don't we get into a couple of those you already mentioned, you mentioned something, but just let's start listing and going through so people understand, hey, there's a lot, there's a holistic approach here, we can say that helps us understand that we were making progress toward that goal. Yeah, so

Louise Digby  11:53

I mentioned measurements. So this might be getting a fabric tape measure. And measuring all different places on your body, particularly around your tummy is a great place to measure because for most people, that's the really bothersome weight that they want to get rid of, that's quite meaningful progress to measure. And also, you know, finding an item of clothing or a few items of clothing, perhaps that you want to get into, or that you know, kind of a little bit tight, that can be a really nice way to see your progress. Because it's it's quite easy to see all over your body, how things are changing. If you do that. Some people do really well with taking photos, and then comparing the photos, you know, might be each week or each month, then you can get a really visual way of seeing how your body is changing. And then I also think it's really important to look at other health indicators. So with my clients, I really like to monitor energy levels, and cravings, and sleep quality, and like PMS, and bloating and those types of things. Because those are the really common bothersome symptoms that tend to crop up when we're not best supporting our health. And we're not eating right for ourselves, but they all improve when we're meeting our body's needs when we're getting the exercise, right. So those are really good things to monitor. And if you see you've got a few weeks, we're actually you know that your scores for all of those have come down as in got worse, then, you know, that might be a time to reassess and look at what you're actually doing to see if you're on the right track. Yeah,

Philip Pape  13:34

exactly. So I mean, scale weight is just this one tiny measurement in a sea of so much goodness here with like you said, biofeedback, energy sleep, you said bloating, I don't know if you mentioned hunger, but I mean, you know, things like that, and the photos and the clothes, and it all comes together. And any one of those things I've seen with clients can be individually bothersome, potentially if they've got some history. But when you start to put them together, I think that takes a little bit of the little bit of emotion out when you start to correlate what's going on. I want to talk about the difference between weight loss and fat loss. And I know you talk about weight loss and weight management in your in your bio, and it's a very common term. I'm on this crusade to like use the term fat loss almost exclusively. However, I do understand we, you know, if you've got to lose 20 pounds of fat, you're gonna probably lose some pounds of weight. Fine, we get that. But why is what's the difference in your mind? How do you think of the messaging and communication of this, this topic? And what we really should be focusing on here when it comes to our health and, and our aesthetics to? Yeah,

Louise Digby  14:37

you're definitely right that we should be talking about fat loss and not weight loss because as we've said, you know, you can, you can lose a lot of fat but not see any real changes on the scales. So talking about it in those terms, I think is helpful. And you know, there are scales that you can get that will tell you you know your fat percentage, your muscle percentage and so I think you Keep an eye on those is a good idea that you know, they're not perfect, and they are affected by time of day and hydration status and that sort of thing. But they can be a good way of a good measure of the real progress that you're making. Because you know, if you're losing muscle, then that's really not a good thing. We don't want that to be happening. Because if you're losing muscle you're losing, you know, metabolic rate, your metabolic rate is going to be decreasing and burning fewer calories at rest, and it's gonna be more likely that you're going to regain fat, you know, when you when you go back to kind of eating a more normal diet? So yeah, I think we do need to be paying closer attention to that itself, as opposed to just the weight?

Philip Pape  15:45

Or do you work exclusively on the the fat loss side? Or the weight loss side? And? Or do you also work on the gaining side? Because that's a whole separate issue of when people are gaining weight to gain muscle? How often are you working in that side of it?

Louise Digby  15:59

I just work on the weight loss of balance side of things, because, like you say, is a whole different thing. And, you know, if you're someone who's trying to gain weight, whether that's gain muscle or gain fat, it's kind of similar in a way in that, you know, we still want to optimize your health. It's kind of a very different mindset, I find, yeah,

Philip Pape  16:21

yeah. No, it's totally different. I was just curious. So getting back to the scale a little bit, when we talk about, we talked about how the frequency of wanes and fixate fixations on numbers, can do we know from the evidence or from experience to scale obsession, lead to disordered eating or disordered exercise habits. I mean, I think there's, there's kind of an obvious answer there. But there's also a, like, what do we mean by that? In other words, let's tie it to the importance of using the scale weight to some level, because we need to versus obsessing about it, and then maybe breaking free from that mindset. What are your thoughts on that?

Louise Digby  16:58

Well, why often see in my clients, the ones that weigh themselves very regularly, not all of them, but a lot of them is that the scale can cause a lot of stress. And, you know, that could be because the weights going up, but they've been trying really, really hard. Or it could be because the scale is not gone down. Or just that they can't make sense of, you know, the different fluctuations. And that, that can very easily become an obsessive thing. And in the stress that that causes you, I find for a lot of people, it, it makes it less likely that they're going to be consistent with their healthy habits, because they feel like things aren't working or because the stress of it all makes them want to comfy, or, you know, do these kinds of self sabotaging behaviors. So that's kind of a trend that I tend to see, which is why often recommend to wait a little bit less often, and focus more on those non scale victories to to keep yourself motivated. You know, because I think also, you know, week by week, when you when you're going through a weight loss journey, the changes are so gradual that sometimes we can actually really acknowledge that they're happening. But if we can kind of keep a log each week of whether that's weights or measurements, or, you know, kind of your health markers, then when we look back, and we see where we started from that can be really, really motivating. And it can help us to, to have a much better kind of appreciation of how far we've come. Yeah,

Philip Pape  18:43

yeah, I struggle with this to Louise, where, like, if a client wants a very precise path, you know, we want I want as much data as possible, but I also don't want them to every day be reaching out to me and saying, oh, no, my weight went up. Oh, no weight, my weight went down. Oh, right. And at the same time, how do you? How do you get the best of both, right, like, so one thing I do is trendway. I try to focus more on a trend right? Like say, let's, let's ignore this scale away, but take it and look at the trend. But again, we can't change human nature, oftentimes when it comes to obsessing over these things. So okay, I think we have not that we beat that to death, but we talked a lot about the scale. Let's talk a little bit about the things that influence that a little more detailed, specifically hormones because I know a lot of people in general and women especially are not just one menstrual cycle changes but hormones in general and stress especially right cortisol and stress and the impact on visceral and belly fat and cravings, lack of sleep, like all of those things I'd like to get into what you think is the order of priority for most people knowing that everyone's different, but like when you work with clients, what's what are the top three issues that have have nothing to do with food? Nothing to do with training, but still affect their like weight and fat management?

Louise Digby  19:57

Yeah, this is the message that I'm consistently trying to out there is that there's a lot more to it than just food and exercise. And these underlying factors have a really big impact. So in terms of the top three things really difficult to narrow it down. This is so different for everyone. But no hormones has got to be up there. You know. And when I say hormones, a lot of people will instantly think of sex hormones, but really, I'm talking about all hormones in your body, because that can incorporate your sex hormones, stress hormones, thyroid hormones, blood sugar, blood sugar, hormones, brain chemicals, all of those things, they all in their own ways will interact with the way that your body burns and stores fats. So for example, your thyroid hormones really control the speed of your metabolism. And particularly in women, we see it all the time where thyroids are under functioning, the typical tests that you have done at your doctors are so basic, they don't detect most imbalances. But when you run just a slightly more detailed test, you can see that actually, very often it's not functioning optimally, and that will have a really big impact on your progress. So thyroids really important. Blood sugar hormones are really key, your insulin levels are higher than optimal, then you're going to be spending too much time in fat storage mode. And it's going to be very difficult to get into fat burning mode, without taking steps to address that raised insulin level. And then cortisol, like you mentioned, is another key hormone as well. And, you know, it's one that when it is elevated, and is for so many people because of just the modern lives that we live, it really drives fat storage, particularly around your tummy. And it's a very disruptive hormone. So it will disrupt your sex hormones, it will slow down your thyroid forever, it will disrupt your gut function, cause inflammation, deplete your nutrients, etc, you know, it disrupts everything. So that is, you know, another key hormone. So yeah, the hormones really, really big. And then I take gut health is another big factor as well. And it's kind of for similar reasons, really, because your gut is very involved in how we process our hormones. So we eliminate particularly our estrogens by the liver and into the guts, and they can be reabsorbed, if our gut isn't functioning so well. And then that can cause hormonal imbalance. And the gut can also be a real source of inflammation and toxins, both of which can drive weight loss resistance, and hormonal disruption. In my clients, we very often test the guard. And we so often see that that guy is not functioning optimally in many, many people, whether there's obvious gut issues or not, no, sometimes they've got appears to be functioning well. But when we take a closer look, the balance isn't good with the bacteria and the yeast, they're not absorbing very well. And then, because your gut is connected to everything that's going on the body impacts everything.

Philip Pape  23:17

All right, yeah, that that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, before people get scared that, okay, everything is gonna just stop functioning, because they've got, you know, an imbalance here or there, would you first question is, would you say that a vast majority people can, through some simple lifestyle changes move the needle significantly? And we want to put that out there first. Yeah,

Louise Digby  23:39

definitely. And, you know, I think one of the really motivating things is that the types of things that you need to do to, to kind of get the foundations in place to support the health of your hormones, your gut, your liver, and all these different systems are very similar, you know, so things like making sure you've got enough protein in your diet, making sure you're eating enough overall, hydration, and you know, we can get into the more but you know, there's some core foundations that impact all these systems in no really positive way. Hi,

24:15

my name is Nancy. I'd love to give a massive thank you to Philip of waits and waits for his work with my 16 year old daughter, when my 16 year old came to me, you know, she wanted some support with her nutrition. She wasn't happy with her body image and the trends that her weight was going. We were very concerned about what kind of help we could get for her. And all of those concerns were completely allayed by work with Philip, you know, he was so respectful of any of our concerns. He adopted any of his programs to really fit working with a team rather than the busy professionals that he normally works with. His coaching style really resonated with her and we're just literally so grateful that he has taught her so many of the skills and life habits that we hope now she'll take For your her entire life. So huge. Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape  25:04

Is there something beyond the big thing so and I've seen this as well, there's like the 8020 approach. But then there's like the 9010. In other words, a lot of people are just have very simple but big things that they can change, like the protein, like training hydration. And it may take them a while to get there, because it is far from where they are today. But then they take steps to get there. And now they're operating at this really good new baseline. But there's still some more that they can optimize, let's call it or there's a little bit more to go, let's say once they've gotten there, what would you put in that category, you know, like nutrient deficiencies, or food sensitivities? Or, you know, like, you've got the basics. Now, what is there this one extra step that you can take?

Louise Digby  25:45

Yeah, so the basics are absolutely key. And that's where we start with with everyone that I work with. And then then it comes down to figure it out what your specific imbalances are. And so often, the best way to do that is with testing, if that's available to you. And then you can decide what your key focus needs to be, is it gut health? Is it hormones, is it reducing inflammation, and then once you know what those things are, then that really means taking just kind of more focused steps, in terms of it might mean up in your levels of Omega three, or it might mean avoiding certain foods that drive inflammation in your body, or eating foods to help develop a really diverse range of bacteria in the gut. And you can do lots of these things at the same time to help to create that balance. But sometimes, you might need a bit more of a targeted intervention. Particular when it comes to the gut, for example, if you had like an overgrowth of bacteria, then it might be that you need to do something for a short period, like a month or two, to help reduce down that overgrowth of bacteria. So you know, the types of things that we might recommend to get a good foundation in place are great, but sometimes we need to do things that are a little bit more intense for a short period to help restore balance.

Philip Pape  27:16

Yeah, like an elimination diet, something like that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, that's great when you talk about testing, so that's another area that can get muddy, because there are, there's the medical establishment, which can be iffy. And it depends on where you live, right? And depends on what country you're in and who you have access to an insurance. There's also functional medical practitioners, which again, is a huge spectrum. And then there's coaches as well, all of who have a different level of expertise and scope of practice. So is there kind of a simple here, here, you know, the top place to start? Maybe maybe for women, it's getting hormones tested with saliva and urine metabolites or something, you know, like, what are their common common tests that you often recommend to people,

Louise Digby  27:59

to me, my go to is often load test, which is an organic acids test. And we like this test, because it looks at how your body is functioning. And that helps us to get a look at your unique needs, rather than just comparing you to the average normal person. So this test also helps you to kind of look at lots of different areas in the body at once with kind of one simple collection. So what I like to look at, particularly when it comes to weight loss is know what's going on in the gut, what's going on with your nutrient levels, your toxic load your thyroid, and looking at the thyroid in detail as well. In terms of other hormones, I think it can be helpful to look at those but I don't find it's actually essential. Because, you know, hormones are often used as a bit of a scapegoat when it comes to trouble with losing weight. But really, they're still a symptom, they're not the root of it all. And all the things that we've been talking about, like darts, inflammation, toxic load, these are all things that impact your hormones, though, I find that if we can instead find out what's going on with those, then we can have a real positive impact on our hormones without actually needing to test the hormones.

Philip Pape  29:17

Perfect. I'm going to repeat that for the listener hormones are often a scapegoat. They're a symptom, not the root cause and lots of things impact them, and they can tell you what's going on. But at the end of the day, it's it's something upstream lifestyle choices or something else, like you said, with your gut or nutrient deficiencies or something which still ultimately probably come down to a lifestyle choice to resolve that, you know, 90% plus of the time. So that's that's a really important message. Okay. Now, I want to segue a little bit into another aspect of this when it comes to when it comes to fat loss and dieting. And where restrictive dieting and willpower and things like that come into play, the psychological effects the physiological effects of deprivation. Because you mentioned not just having enough protein, right, but eating enough. And yet, I know you're working primarily in the fat loss side of the equation. So I suspect the majority of your clients are either at maintenance or kind of in a deficit, because you're trying to get to that goal. Now you have, okay, let's not do it too extreme, let's not do it too quickly, and deal with all the other issues that can come up tied to the way they did it before, which might have been a diet or cutting carbs or something like that. So big topic, but go for it, Louise, you can handle it. We can talk about, like energy deficiency, and you talked about eating enough?

Louise Digby  30:34

Yes, yeah, let's start that. Yeah. So we've so many of my clients, when they come to see me, they are not in anywhere near enough. And whilst we do want to be in a calorie deficit, you don't need to be in a massive calorie deficit. And when we are in a significant calorie deficit consistently, it really sends a message to our body that there is a lack of food around and you know, our bodies are really smart and adaptive, and they adapt to that low calorie intake. Or it might be if you're burning a lot of calories, your body will adapt to that high calorie expenditure. And the way that it adapts is it stops spending so much energy and calories on other functions in the body to conserve energy. So basically, we start burning fewer calories. So getting into a big calorie deficit, it kind of only works for so long, and it can set you up for rebound weight gain, because our metabolism decreases as part of that process. And also, because we tend to lose muscle when we're not eating enough. And that is going to reduce our metabolism, like I was saying before. So there's the kind of the physiological side of it. And then there's also the psychological side of that restriction. And for many people, when they do follow such a restrictive diet, it tends to lead to overeating or Binging at certain points. And particularly once the diet stops, it tends to be that there's a significant amount of overeating that goes on for a little while. And you know, that's kind of the a mindset thing, I think. So, for me, the approach that I prefer to take with my clients is to make sure that we're making they're eating enough food so that the thyroid can function properly, so they don't feel hungry, so that they can build muscle. And so that their their mitochondria, where we actually make energy and burn fat function properly. And when you do all of that, and you balance what's going on in the body with hormones in the gut, then your body becomes a lot more efficient at burning fat. And we don't need to be in this massive calorie deficit, which is so difficult to sustain in the long term.

Philip Pape  32:58

Yeah, so you talked about adaptation and eating enough while losing weight, which I think people have trouble comprehending, but just if I'm to paraphrase what you said, and also, from my experience, there's a rate at which you can do this where it doesn't, it's not that hard or that difficult, I guess I would say compared to what it could be. In other words, you, you have to have a little bit of hunger, you're going to have that. But if you're making the right choices, because we can get into Okay, high satiety foods and all that fun stuff, but just simply the rate of loss and the amount of deficit, your body doesn't quite perceive it as this massive, you know, I hate to say starvation, because there's no such thing as like starvation mode, but you know, it doesn't perceive that you're just going to starve. It's more like, I'm a little bit short of resources right now. But I can kind of function in general. And you've, you've probably experienced this personally to lose when you go in a fat loss phase. Like I know, sometimes I want to go more aggressively, say, knowing that I have more calories to work with, and yet to my body that's still pretty darn aggressive. And it's like starts to fight back, say, oh, let's turn the dial down a little bit. You know, same thing with clients, they want to go all out and like, let's turn it back a little bit, because what you'll find is that you'll actually make progress week after week. You know, it might take an extra few weeks, but it actually doesn't take extra time. Because if you went too aggressive, you'd either overeat or binge or give up or lose muscle or something along the way. Yeah, I know you say something because I'm just rambling. Go ahead.

Louise Digby  34:23

I was gonna say to add to all of that is that at the same time is quite stressful for your body to be in a significant calorie deficit. And, you know, when back when we were cavemen and there was a famine, our bodies had a self preservation mechanism, which was to raise cortisol levels and that helped us to get our muscle and break it down and turn it into sugar to give us fuel to keep going. So when we're not eating enough consistently, it drives up our cortisol levels and that contributes to stubborn fat around your tummy, but it will also contributes to muscle wasting, which, you know, neither of those things are aligned with your weight loss goals. So it's, you know, can take a little bit to get your head around it badly not eating enough can hold your weight loss progress. Yeah.

Philip Pape  35:15

Yeah, it's like, it's like the short game, or the long game is the short game or whatever the phrase is where, like, if you do it, with some patience, it'll actually happen faster than if you try to rush it. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's great. We talked about metabolic adaptation all the time as well. And it's, it's important how you, you separate it a bit the hormonal impacts as well, from just the just the rate of loss and the hunger and everything else. Because they're, it's almost like each thing stacks on the other, right, like you said, cortisol goes up. So then your stress level goes up. So then you get hungrier, so then you don't sleep as much. So then, right, and it just stacks. And it's like, it's more than just this equation, you know, huh? Yeah, definitely. So I Okay, I, we kind of talked about the emotional side of it a bit. I don't know if there's also emotional eating and that kind of aspect you want to touch on because when we're in fat loss, even if let's say we've yet somebody is working with you, Louise as a coach, and you've kind of educated them on the types of foods that might serve them, you know, more nutrient dense foods and high satiety foods. And I'm sure your philosophy is like you still want to have things you enjoy and have some indulgences in there for your mental health. How do we still make sure not to fall into that old trap some people have of emotional eating and succumbing to that, knowing that we're also restricting, in a way, right, restricting their way, as we go through that fat loss phase? How do we balance all of that? Yeah,

Louise Digby  36:41

I think doing the mindset work is absolutely key. You know, it's all well and good, knowing what you need to do. But being able to implement that consistently, is the most important thing. And in order to be able to be consistent, we need to address our mindset monkeys, as I like to call them. Because you know, stuff going on that is causing us to self sabotage or feeling guilty about what we're eating. If we're feeling negative around ourselves, then all of that are things that are going to be obstacles that will stop you from being consistent. So I always think it's important to do some work around our relationship with food, how we think about food, because from a lot of diet clubs, that most people that I work with have done at some point in their lives, they get taught that there's good and there's bad foods, and that if you eat good foods, then well done you you're you're good, you're doing really well. You eat bad foods, then shame on you, your willpower is weak, you're weak. And that's kind of the message that is given. And it's, it's just not true. And it's it's not helpful, either. And, you know, the fact is, is that there is no good or bad foods, and all food is good, even the foods that we might tend to think bad, they still give us sustenance, you know, they're still giving us something, and even, you know, the most nutritious food in the world. If that's all we had, then that's not going to be good for us either. So I tried to get my clients thinking of foods in a bit of a different way. And kind of thinking about what that food is giving them in terms of nourishment, and kind of more on a scale of nourishing to really nourishing. So moving away from from talking about and thinking about foods is good and bad. And also, you know, along with that, try not to beat yourself up if you are, you know, stepping off plan or eating something unplanned. Because again, it just doesn't help. What the research has shown is that people who feel guilty and beat themselves up after eating something, quote unquote bad, are more likely to go ahead and eat even more of it. Because they're self soothing that guilt that they're experiencing or that shame that they're experiencing. So if we can work on allowing ourselves to have some indulgences and give ourselves a little bit of leeway. And also just practice, just you know, when we do kind of fall off track, actually just practicing acknowledging that and accepting it and moving on, then that can make a world of difference with our progress.

Philip Pape  39:21

Yeah, love it. I definitely the the acceptance of the emotions and acknowledging and seeing them as opposed to saying that we're going to be able to clamp them off or change them is a very positive approach as as his self compassion and giving yourself some some room grace, leeway, whatever. I do, like the nourishment scale that you mentioned, because I often struggle with the messaging of when we talk about food because again, there is no good or bad like you said, but we still throw in words like healthy and fuel and nourishment. It's like, where do we use the language properly right to still to take it away out of that moral decision that it used to be and put it more in a okay, that's just the lines with some level of fuel and nourishment for me based on my goal now and you know, it could be just less nurturing or more nourishing, there's no like, other side of the scale right here that bad, right? And then. So when it comes to emotional eating, I definitely get all of that it's a process, there's mindset work required, what about the client you've worked with? Who maybe you've done some of that work, and they, they go through a fat loss phase, let's say they've lost 1520 pounds, but they're still not where they want to be, from how they look their body image, right? You know, and they're kind of defeated, in a way, even though they've made all this progress? How do you deal with that kind of situation, or how to somebody listening do that for themselves?

Louise Digby  40:39

Yeah, I've definitely worked with women who have hit their goals, but not been happy with what they see in the mirror. And that can happen for a number of reasons. You know, it could be loose skin, it could be because particularly for women, when you lose weight, you tend to have a little bit more of wrinkles on your skin. And, you know, some women I've worked with have actually decided to regain a little bit of weight intentionally, to kind of get to a better place. But ultimately, what we need to do is we need to practice and, and do the work so that we can love ourselves, no matter what shape or size that we are. And part of that, I think, when we are approaching our weight loss journey, we need to come at it from a loving position, as opposed to a loathing position, losing weight, the weight, because we know that that is good for us physically, because it's going to enable us to be more active, do more the family, whatever those motivation points are, rather than doing it because you hate yourself, because you think you'll love yourself when you're slimmer. And so you know, there's lots of things that you can do to help build up your body image and, you know, things like, again, the language that we use, when we think about ourselves, or when we talk about ourselves, just practicing, you know, not talking about ourselves in a negative way, and really thinking about and talking about ourselves in the way that you would a loved one or a friend or child, you know, be just giving ourselves some compassion and being nice to ourselves. And that can take some real practice because, you know, I catch myself doing it as well, where you, you know, can really berate yourself and put yourself down for not being able to do something that you thought you could do or be consistent with something. And again, it just doesn't help to be like to put yourself down like that. So if we can practice just being nicer to ourselves, then, you know, it takes a little bit of time, but it turns into a habit. And then that just helps us to feel better about ourselves in time. It's

Philip Pape  42:50

funny, because in my community, one of the most common comments that I have to give people is not have to give people that give people's reframing kind of reply, like let's reframe what you just said, right? Because like you said, not only do we have this negative self talk, and we label and such, but we were doing it to ourselves, which should be the person we love the most in a way and yet, just asking yourself, would you say this to somebody else out loud? Probably big a big no, like you would even recoil from it. So if we can kind of turn that around on ourselves. And make it a habit. With that reframing. I definitely love that. And even myself, since I've become a coach, it's every time I think of like, I can't statement or I have to or an I am statement. It's like no, these these things aren't set in stone. How do we reframe that language? So really good advice. It's not easy, right, Louise? It's simply not easy. We got to work on it. But it's good to hear that. Let's we're getting close to wrapping up. Do you have like, top two or three tips for when we talk about sustainable fat loss and the overall process, something that everybody could benefit from, you know, like, what they might be principles that you have? Or actual, like practices, like, you know, you mentioned protein that could be in those, I don't care, what do you think is the top three things that would make a biggest impact to someone listening? I

Louise Digby  44:06

think I'm gonna say it partly because we haven't really talked about it much. But also because it's really important. Sleep, make sure you're sleeping enough. Because you can do your diet perfectly right, you can be doing all the stress management, all the right workouts, but if you're not sleeping, then all of the benefits you get from that are going to be really limited. And also you're going to feel rubbish, your moods going to be lower, your cravings are going to be higher and everything's just going to be harder. So we can prioritize getting enough sleep and good quality sleep as well. It will make a world of difference to how you feel and your progress. You know, sometimes I have clients come to me who say, Please, I've I've not changed anything. I'm still you know, eating Wow, I've been trying really hard, but suddenly my weight loss is plateaued. Then we start digging into things we say why Hang on a minute, you were sleeping seven, eight hours night, and over the past few weeks, you've been getting six hours. So let's start there. And then when we address the sleep, suddenly, things start moving in the right direction again. So yes, sleep, massive

Philip Pape  45:14

sleep. And before we continue there, so just read the recent issue of body by science, which is Dr. Bill Campbell's Research Review, he reviewed a study that just came out, that took two groups, and they put them in a sleep lab, or not one group and a sleep lab. And they had to do an experiment two different times for the same group. So they didn't have like, it was like a crossover study. And in one case, they got eight, eight and a half hours of sleep, and another they got five and a half. And they were on the exact same calorie intake, like totally controlled. And the group that had the eight and a half had much better improvement in body composition, right. So they actually built muscle and lost fat. And asleep group only, only didn't lose, they didn't gain lean mass actually lost lean mass and they gain fat was the opposite, right? Just at the exact same calorie intake. So again, just to reinforce your point of how important sleep is,

Louise Digby  46:00

yeah, because you know, we've got to rest and have that recovery time in order to build the muscle and reap the benefits from the workouts that we're doing. And all the repair that should be happening from all the good nutrition that you're putting in. So yeah, sleep, absolute top priority. And stress management is another really important one for very similar reasons to sleep, you know, it kind of has a similar impact on your body as sleep deprivation does. And is just so the type of person that I worked with who is a woman who's in kind of their mid stage of life, tends to be very highly stressed, always on the go, never really stopping or having any real me time or downtime. And so they spent all their time in fight or flight mode, and never really get into the rest and digest mode, which we need to be in, in order to be able to burn fat and you know, repair and recover. So, you know, I think focusing on some stress management techniques, obviously reducing stress where you can, and helping to support your body to get into that rest and digest mode, you know, for like deep breathing, meditation, cold showers, and many, many other things that you can do to help to stimulate that parasympathetic nervous system.

Philip Pape  47:21

what's your what's your favorite stress management technique for you?

Louise Digby  47:24

I think just doing some deep belly breathing, because it takes a minute. And you can just do it anywhere, you know, you'd be sitting in traffic, or you can present at your desk or just before you eat. And you know, there's research on it just show that it does lower your cortisol levels quite quickly. And you know, change that nervous system pattern. And it has a significant impact if you can practice that regularly. Yeah,

Philip Pape  47:50

I know that I know, there are probably apps for this. I wonder there's got to be podcasts out there where they just take you through breathing techniques, right. All right, what's the third one? Because we love lists, we're just going with three, right? Yeah,

Louise Digby  48:02

I think I probably come back to protein. Because if we're not getting enough protein in then not going to be building muscle, we're not going to have the fuel we need to make our hormones and to repair our guts and support our immune system, and so many other things. So protein is absolutely key. And, you know, it's interesting, because I see real mixed messages out there on social media. And I keep seeing more conventional doctors who are saying, you know, kind of like, trying to debunk the the message of protein and say that, you know, protein isn't as important everyone's making it out to be. But it really is important. And you know, you've just, you just see the difference, you probably see it in your own clients when you up the protein. If it's from quality sources, then the world of difference it makes to everything keeps you full, keeps you energized, stops the cravings, helps you sleep. And you can just go on and on with all the benefits of having enough protein. For

Philip Pape  49:03

sure, for sure, I can never end going on about protein because it is so important, like you said, and even especially during fat loss, when it tends to need to be higher to preserve that muscle, you also get the benefits of it being higher, like you said, with satiety, energy, stuff like that. And it also gets to tend to tend to, to get you to eat more whole foods in general, because you're seeking out animal and plant sources that have the protein. It's funny, I did an episode A while back called like the dangers of low protein for longevity, because that was that's the message they're pushing and somehow lowering your protein helps you live longer. And when you dissect it, it's like rat studies and there's so many things wrong with the methodology. And you don't get you're now killing all the benefits of having protein and building muscle. And that's going to kill you long before any of these other things get you to that like 90 year old Yeah. Cool. All right. So I like to ask this of all guests, Louise as we wrap up, is there a question you wish I had asked and if so, what's your answer?

Louise Digby  49:56

Good question. Is there

Philip Pape  49:59

no I know

Louise Digby  50:02

I can't think of anything my mind's gone completely blank.

Philip Pape  50:05

It happens to me too. And people throw that on me and I think I would have known better by like turning to have have one in my pocket. But no, we covered a lot of topics I took you kind of around the whole circle of things. You know, the idea of nourishing and adding in and supporting your body is so so important. And I think we don't get an get enough messaging on the like the sleep and the stress and things like that you talked about, probably because it's, they come across as like boring topics and oh, here we go. Again, I need to do this, but we need to continue putting that message out there and then also supporting people on easy ways to do that. Because, you know, so people don't have any excuses. Anyway. Good stuff, Louise. Where Where can listeners learn more about you and your work? So

Louise Digby  50:44

my website is Louise Digby nutrition.com. Or you can connect with me on social media Instagram, Facebook Tik Tok, by searching at Louise Digby nutrition. And then I also have a podcast, which is the thriving metabolism. And you can find that on any podcast platform.

Philip Pape  51:01

Awesome. Thriving metabolism. Absolutely. I'll put your IG I'll put your website in there. I think we have a masterclass that we want to send people to potentially there. So I'll put that in. And it's been a pleasure, Louise. It was a lot of fun time really flew by a lot of great tips in here for the listener and I thank you for coming on. Thank

Louise Digby  51:19

you so much for having me. Yeah, I feel like we really covered some important stuff today, for sure.

Philip Pape  51:25

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wits end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Ep 178: Doing THIS in the Bedroom is Killing Your Fat Loss, Muscle Growth, Hormones, & Metabolism

There is one thing you're doing in the bedroom that might be compromising your gains and your health.

No, not that. Or that. Not that either. It's...your sleep routine!

Do you really need 7-9 hours of sleep? Can you compensate for poor sleep with diet or exercise? What if you could turbocharge your metabolism, balance your hormones, and redefine your body composition with some tweaks to your sleep habits?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) tackles the often neglected aspect of health and fitness - sleep. He goes beyond the usual advice of “get 7-9 hours of sleep” and explores the significant impact of sleep on your body composition, fat loss, and muscle gain. Is it possible to compensate for poor sleep with diet or exercise? How significant is sleep compared to nutrition and exercise? He answers these questions and more, offering valuable insights for busy, ambitious individuals like you seeking to improve sleep quality and quantity. As a bonus, you can access a free guide, “Better Sleep, Better Body,” packed with evidence-based strategies and practical tips to optimize sleep habits for improved metabolism, hormones, and body composition.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:51 The science of sleep
6:10 The connection between sleep and fat loss
11:26 Sleep and muscle gain
16:37 Sleep’s effect on overall health
24:48 Seven practical tips to improve sleep quality and quantity
40:06 Outro

Episode resources:

• Download the Better Sleep, Better Body guide FREE

Episode summary:

If you've been tirelessly working on your fitness goals but seem to hit a wall, it's time to turn your attention to something often neglected: sleep. Unbeknownst to many, sleep plays a pivotal role in not only muscle recovery and growth but also in weight management and overall well-being. In our latest podcast episode, we delve deep into the science behind the critical role of sleep in achieving fitness success.

Starting with the stages of sleep, REM (Rapid Eye Movement) and non-REM, it's clear that both play significant roles in the body's restorative processes. During the deep phases of non-REM sleep, your body releases anabolic hormones such as growth hormone and testosterone, which are crucial for muscle protein synthesis and hypertrophy. REM sleep, on the other hand, is associated with memory consolidation and emotional regulation, also aiding in skill acquisition and performance, which are vital for technical sports and even weightlifting.

Yet, many are unaware of the negative impact that sleep deprivation can have on these processes. When sleep is compromised, the release of these growth-promoting hormones is stifled, leading to impaired muscle gains and strength. Moreover, the importance of sleep extends beyond the gym. It has significant implications for our overall health, with insufficient sleep linked to an increased risk of cardiovascular disease, systemic inflammation, and even accelerated biological aging.

The episode doesn't just highlight the problems but also offers solutions. By providing actionable, evidence-based strategies, it encourages listeners to enhance both their sleep quality and quantity. Simple changes in managing light exposure, maintaining a consistent sleep schedule, and establishing a pre-bedtime ritual can have profound effects on your sleep health.

It's time to debunk the myth that one can function optimally on minimal sleep. The reality is that our bodies often mask the true extent of impairment caused by sleep deprivation. By prioritizing seven to eight hours of quality sleep, alongside proper nutrition and training, you'll be equipping your body to achieve the health and fitness goals you've set for yourself.

To sum up, sleep is not just a luxury; it's an indispensable component of fitness success. By recognizing its importance and implementing the tips shared in this episode, you can transform your body, enhance your athletic performance, and achieve optimal health. Embrace the power of sleep and unlock the full potential of your fitness journey.

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:00

If you're battling away trying to lose fat, build muscle or optimize your hormones and metabolism, and it's just not working for you. Despite seemingly doing everything right, you might be overlooking one crucial factor, and it lies in our innermost Sanctum the bedroom. In this episode I reveal what you're doing in the bedroom that could be sabotaging your fitness goals, and how some simple but surprising tweaks can unlock your body's full potential without changing how you eat or workout. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry

Philip Pape  00:51

so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The Whitson weights podcast. In our last episode 177 How anatomy impacts your gut muscle mass hormones and health with Justin Caudill, Justin shared some pretty fascinating information about anatomy and how our digestive system can lead to better nutrient absorption and overall health, and also how our bodies physically adapt to training, we explored the impacts of anatomical knowledge on your personal health and fitness strategies to optimize your nutrition and training. Today for episode 178. Doing this in the bedroom is killing your fat loss, muscle growth hormones and metabolism, we're tackling a crucial but often overlooked aspect of your health and fitness journey. Something you do in the bedroom, probably every single night. Adults do it, kids do it. And it's not just on the Discovery Channel. That's right, I'm talking about sleep. It is not a sexy topic, in most circumstances, but it is extremely important. And you've probably heard most of the generic sleep tips like get seven or nine hours or you've heard claims about sleep hacks that will transform your life do this one thing and you're gonna get massively improved sleep. But I want to go beyond those cliches, even though we're going to have some probably common recommendations here as well as some surprising ones. And we want to explore the evidence on how sleep impacts your physique, your body composition, and the goals that you have for those, including especially their impact on Fat Loss and Muscle Gain both sides of the equation, because the question is always can we out train or can we out diet poor sleep? Right? Some people think, Hey, I'm just a five hour guy type of person, no big deal. But is that true? How much does sleep really move the needle compared to nutrition and training? You know what strategies actually work to improve sleep quality and quantity but especially quality for you know, busy, ambitious people like you listen to the show that may not have a lot of time, you're trying to get a lot done, and you still want to get the quality z's. And we're still going to answer some of these and get into some more side topics throughout this conversation, conversation of one but conversation with you my dear listener. So before we dive in, I've put together what else a totally free guide called better sleep better body that has all of the choice cuts from today's episode, simply head over to Whitson weights.com/free or click the link in the show notes. And by the way, if you go to Whitson weights comm slash free, you're gonna see a ton of guides now. So if you missed some in the past, go check that out. Because even if you don't want the one on sleep, there are plenty others there to check out. Now inside the better sleep better body guide, you're going to find the evidence based strategies and specific lists of tips to optimize sleep habits for improved quality, where it most optimally impacts your metabolism, your hormones, your body composition. Alright, so download the better sleep better body guide at the link in the show notes or head over to Whitson weights.com/free Alright, let's get into today's topic doing this in the bedroom. And you know what it is now is killing your fat loss muscle growth hormones and metabolism. Starting with the science of sleep right before we get into the impact of it, we have to understand what's actually happening in your body when you sleep. So when you sleep you're cycling between two main stages rem and non REM REM stands for Rapid Eye Movement. And of course non REM is everything else. And non REM is further divided into three sub stages. And non REM takes up about 75 to 80% of your total sleep time. And then in the deepest non REM stages. That is when your body releases anabolic hormones like growth hormone and testosterone that we love for muscle protein synthesis and recovery from training. So right off the bat, I want to make that connection in your head that the body needs to get to these deeper quality phases for a long enough time to really trigger a lot of that recovery that you get between your training bouts. This is huge. This is huge. Now your body also does a lot of other restorative assesses during non REM, like clearing out your metabolic waste products from the brain. Now the other 20 to 25% of sleep is REM. And this is what we know is the vivid dream state right? Rem is important for learning for consolidating your memories, emotional regulation. And then over the course of the night, you're gonna cycle through both of these through the non rem and the REM, multiple times. And non REM is going to dominate the first half of the night and REM ramps up in the second half. And again, we can see why duration and quantity is also important. And for some of you who have an aura ring like I do, you can get all geeky about this and actually see which phases you're in throughout the night pretty good at detecting that, based on a wide variety of factors. One of those I think is is heart rate. And another might be body temperature, HRV, things like that. But regardless whether you track it or not, it's the the lifestyle actions that improve it that we care about. So both of those stages, Rem and non REM are definitely essential together for waking up feeling refreshed, right, mentally refreshed, and physically refreshed. And already you can see how sleep deprivation could undermine your effort by impairing things like muscle recovery and growth and cognitive function. So they're all important. And now we're going to take a little bit closer look at the fat loss side of the equation, right? I know a lot of you are working toward losing fat. You're wondering how sleep fits into that equation, you hear me talk about it a lot. And the connection between sleep and weight. And fat loss is very robust at this point. I can't bring someone on the show and talk about sleep without getting into some study that supports this. You know, studies show that sleeping less than seven hours per night is associated with higher BMI, higher obesity rates in controlled trials where they restrict sleep. People consistently gain weight over a few weeks when their sleep is restricted. And you might be thinking, Well, what isn't it just about calories? Well, it is but sleep is affecting your ability to burn calories and burn fat. So let's talk about that. So we understand what's happening. Because a lack of sleep is like the worst perfect storm of metabolic and hormonal disruption you can imagine of almost all the things you can do besides chronic stress, but they tend to go hand in hand, right? So one thing that a lack of sleep does it dis regulate your appetite hormones, it increases gralen which simulates stimulates hunger, and it decreases leptin, which helps you feel full. So it's both in the wrong direction. And so the result is you feel hungrier, you want to snack more, you have more cravings. And we've seen in studies people consume around 300 to 500 extra calories per day, when sleep deprived and when they're not, you know, tracking or deliberately trying to control calories, just eating intuitively, what they call ad libitum. Just whatever you want to eat, they tend to eat quite a bit more. And that's a lot, right, that's like an extra pound a week. Lack of sleep also impairs glucose metabolism, and insulin sensitivity, right. And so that means potentially say more of the carbs you eat gets stored as fat rather than going toward muscle. So it affects body composition. It also spikes cortisol, the stress hormone, we know that a lack of sleep simply disrupts your circadian rhythm. And that further encourages fat storage, especially around the midsection. So belly fat belly fat belly fat, big thing here. Besides alcohol sleep is probably the other huge disrupter. And what causes you to store around the midsection because of that cortisol spike and your body wanting to hoard energy reserves. In that area. It also a lack of sleep tanks, your testosterone by up to 10 to 15%. And since testosterone, as we know, helps maintain muscle mass and keeps body fat in check. This is like a double whammy. And then lastly it increases inflammatory markers inflammation and emerging research shows that this can be an independent risk factor, of course for weight gain over time, so nothing good from lacking sleep or sleep quality. And I mentioned that you know on top of the biological or the physiological challenges that come from it, the deprivation in sleep just makes it harder to control food cravings, and then make the choices you want to make. Right? It ramps up things like emotional eating, it diminishes your willpower, you might reach for some quick energy because you need it because of the lack of sleep. So you're gonna go for high sugar, high fat type types of foods, right processed foods, you're more likely to overeat in the evening and then that can disrupt your sleep further. Now you've got this vicious cycle, you might drink more caffeine and drink it more later in the day because you feel lack of energy. Do you see where this is all going? Now these are short term changes, and they don't guarantee that you're not gonna be able to lose weight long term or fat or, or that you're going to gain weight. Long term if you're doing other things, but they make it a lot harder they stack the deck against you. They make fat loss feel harder than it needs to be. One study found that when dieters got a full night's sleep, more than half the weight they lost was fat when they cut back to restricted time, which about five and a half hours per night. Fat Loss dropped by 55% They lost more lean mass. And there was a recent review in Dr. Bill Campbell's research review about some I'm not sure if I don't think it was the same study. But it's the same kind of result, body composition worsens when you don't get enough sleep. You know, other studies have shown higher protein intake is less protective against muscle loss during a deficit if you don't have as much sleep. So, ladies and gentlemen, you're just hurting yourself and making it a lot harder. This is why I titled the episode what I did this thing in the bedroom, a lack of sleep is killing all of these things. So the takeaway here, which is a good thing to know, because then it gives us the power back it gives us the control is that skimping on sleep erodes the effectiveness of the other things you're doing, especially your diet. And no matter how much you want to calorie cut, and make these food choices and apply willpower, it's not going to fully compensate for your body's fighting against you like this. And so what do we need to do? Well, I at minimum, there's a quantity aspect, right? We talked about the seven and nine hours of sleep, there's a validity to that range. So if you can get eight, you get nine, especially during aggressive dieting phases, aggressive fat loss phase, you're going to buffer some of the metabolic adaptations going on. You can't stop metabolic adaptation, but you can avoid making it worse by losing sleep, right? It's a non negotiable if you want not only success with your fat loss, but to make it feel easier and to make it more sustainable over the long term. So that's sleeping fat loss, it's pretty clear. Just wanted to reiterate those things for you. Let's talk about sleep and muscle gain, right? Because we have a lot of dedicated lifters in the audience, and you're working hard to build your strength and muscle, you know, you're going to the gym consistently 3456 days a week, you're crushing it, you're eating, you're in a surplus. But are you recovering enough? And you might think, well, if I'm eating all this food, do I really even need as much sleep? Yes, the science suggests that sleep is just as vital for muscle growth during a gaining phase as your training and nutrition, which is something I've had to get my arms around as well, because you would think, Okay, I'm not working against myself on the dieting department, I've got plenty of energy coming in. So is sleep really as important? Well, do you remember those anabolic hormones I mentioned that surge during deep sleep, growth hormone increases by up to 400% compared to waking levels, IGF one, testosterone, prolactin, they all rise during deep, again, deep sleep, not just sleep in general, you have to get to that deep state of sleep. And of course, these hormones, we pretty much know that they're tied to muscle protein synthesis to satellite cell proliferation, right drivers of hypertrophy, drivers of muscle mass. And then on the flip side, if you just don't have enough sleep, you're going to tank those things, you're going to tank, your testosterone and your growth hormone. And there's been research on athletes that show when participants are sleep deprived. Again, we're talking like five and a half, five, even four and a half hours of sleep is usually where they study these things, their gains in muscle and strength drop compared to people getting a full eight hours of sleep, even when they're consuming plenty of protein. And it's probably due to this impaired anabolic signaling. So we could see that the detriment on both sides of the equation, we see that it both makes fat loss harder, but it also makes muscle growth harder. Alright, now there's another aspect of sleep that I think is important to mention. And that is skill acquisition and performance. If you're doing a sport, a technical sport, or let's just be honest, having your brains your wits, right, if your wits about you doing anything, including just lifting weights, you know, you want to be able to focus and use proper form and apply and learn that skill and grow. And then you want to be on for the rest of the day. You don't want to be just tanking later on in the day. And there have been studies on athletes like tennis players, rowers, lifters, that find that when they can extend their sleep, even if it's through napping, it boosts their reaction time, their accuracy, their speed, their power. There was an experiment in 2007 Corman at all. And it had volunteers practice a thumb movement task and half of them stayed awake afterward after the task, and the other half took a 90 minute nap. And then when they were retested That evening, the people who napped perform 18% faster and maintain their accuracy. And those who are sleep deprived saw significant decline in speed and accuracy. So this is motor memory, right? This is the neurological patterns that are formed while we're practicing a skill, which is something we do during lifting as well. And sleep helps that. And scientists believe that during REM sleep, your brain replays the neural activity from practicing the new skill. It's kind of like you know, when you sleep on it, and you all of a sudden have a bright idea immediately the next day like a problem that you have difficulty solving the day before becomes easier all of a sudden, now that you've slept on it. Well, if you lifted, let's say a brand new movement, you did a new type of squat and you go to sleep and now you get enough deep REM sleep or you get the REM sleep. Your brain gets to You continue to wire and play that pattern that you just did that movement pattern. And then the connections, the neural connections in your brain are stronger. And then overnight, those memories are transferred from short term storage in the hippocampus, to long term storage in the cortex in something called systems consolidation. So cool like this is when we talk about neuromuscular adaptation and muscle memory. This is the biology behind it. I think it's fascinating. I hope I'm not putting you to sleep. Ha, ha. All right. So the application to strength training are obvious. I hope I made them obvious, right? If you want to lock in the movement patterns and the mind muscle connection from your workouts, getting sufficient REM sleep is key. If you don't, you're not just compromising muscle growth, but you're probably compromising your technique and strength gains, and then your form and potentially increasing your chance of injury. So it's not just that you're tired and sluggish. And that's why you failed to perform. It's also that your brain just doesn't have the cognitive energy that it needs from the sleep. So if you want to build muscle, listen to me, if you want to get strong build muscle perform in the gym actually make gains, and you're finding you're not, are you simply not getting enough sleep are you getting, you know, six hours of sleep every night instead of seven or eight, are not getting that quality sleep. You know, don't be afraid to sneak in naps. If you want to get some more recovering performance naps can work for a lot of people. Some people don't like them, some people don't respond, or some people get more tired when they nap. But it's definitely a lever that you can pull. Right. And again, you're not gonna you're not going to suffer from a couple of nights of disrupted sleep, we're talking about chronic sleep debt, just think about your like always behind on sleep, and then that's going to stop all of these processes. So we've talked about fat loss, we've talked about muscle gain, I want to talk about sleep and health overall. Right? This sends me again, the less sexy topic but it's critically important in many of many of you listening are in the older crowd, right? I'm in my 40s, many of you listening are at least in your 30s 40s and beyond. And health becomes more and more important and is tied into all of this. Because even the most impressive physique is worthless if you don't have the health. And if you don't have the vitality, and the longevity to enjoy it. Right. And sleep is massive in this area. For for both acute functioning, you know day to day, but also long term health. So let's look at the short and long term in the short term. A single night of poor sleep can tank your mood, it can demotivate you, right you just have less motivation. It can increase your feelings of stress of anxiety, of irritability, it impairs your focus, it impairs your productivity, your decision making. It induces a state of almost like having a beer or two like a mild state of intoxication when you don't have enough sleep. You know what I'm talking about? You know what it's like you're hungover and you didn't have anything to drink? Well, what is going on? You know, it suppresses your immune system, oh, we know this, like when you're sick, you've got to get your rest well, similarly, when you're not sick, and you don't get enough sleep, you open up yourself to viruses dramatically, this is a biological thing that actually happens. It increases perceptions of pain, it increases symptoms of chronic conditions that you might have just just the sky's the limit on that right autoimmune conditions, you might have anything that gives you certain symptoms, it might increase those and I know how this is I've got like a torn labrum in my hip. I've had it for quite a few years. And if I sit too long, it'll activate it. And if I'm tired, it'll feel worse, right? If I'm not training, or if I'm tired, it's gonna feel worse. And you probably have something like that where we don't get enough sleep, you feel it in other areas. Lack of one night of sleep can disrupt your hunger hormone. So remember that we talked about with the fat loss section, it happens immediately it disrupts your hunger hormones, leptin and ghrelin. And then you can get cravings you start over eat, even in one day. Now, one day is not going to throw off your your plans, of course, but just know that that can be a result of it. And when you have a particularly difficult week, where you feel like you've succumb to cravings, for example, evaluate the biofeedback and other factors that are associated with that. Like, did you simply lose out on your normal quality sleep? Or are you more stressed things like that, and then a lack of sleep in one day can spike your blood pressure and it can actually throw off your blood sugar control just a bit. And we know these things. Now, that's just one night. Now let's string these together. You get some chronic sleep deprivation, you know, multiple nights of insufficient sleep, and everything gets compounded. The cognitive performance deteriorates, right. Some studies show that a few weeks in a row of like six hours a night reduces performance to the same level, as is if you had 48 straight hours of no sleep. Right? And I honestly personally I can attest to that. I've had situations where several nights in a row I just had poor sleep. I don't think I've gone two weeks with less than six hours. But I've definitely gone several days with like five and a half hours of sleep. And it just really builds and you just constantly feel like you're behind. It's not good. Also, this is really important. Okay, risk of heart attack and stroke go up when you're chronically sleep deprived. One study found that five hours a night increase the risk of cardiovascular disease by 200 to 300%, compared to seven hours, markers of systemic inflammation increase, and that's a known risk factor for chronic diseases like diabetes, cancer, Alzheimer's, and even vaccine effectiveness diminishes, where people who have sleep deprivation produce fewer antibodies from a vaccine they got so if you do the flu vaccine every year, but you don't get enough sleep, that could actually reduce the effectiveness of it. Fascinating stuff. Okay, some of this I'm surprised by as I researched for this, this episode. Now, perhaps most disturbing of all of this is evidence that shows chronic sleep deprivation literally speeds up aging at the basic biological level at with telomeres. Now, I know there's mixed, there's some quackery out there when it comes to longevity research. And we talked about telomeres. Telomeres are those protective caps on the ends of your DNA. And they shorten as you age, and apparently they shortened more quickly, and people who consistently get less sleep, and it's dose dependent, which can then potentially reduce your life expectancy. All right, just take that with a grain of salt. It's not like you needed to know that fact, to worry you yet again. We know sleep deprivation is just not good all around.

Philip Pape  21:14

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wit's end weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls, and the supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape  22:35

Now, I alluded at the very beginning of that episode to people who are like, Yeah, I'm fine. I'm five to six hours of sleep, and I'm a low quantity sleeper, right? I've said that about myself, like I can get by fine in five to six hours. And I don't need more than that. But first one thing I want to say about that is how you feel isn't necessarily the best barometer for health and functioning. And I mean that as in like, a general, okay, I'm fine. Because we are, we're really good. We're frighteningly good at adapting to chronic stress to chronic sleep loss to bad things that are life, we're just good at adapting to them. We're resilient as human beings, and then we don't perceive how impaired we are by relative comparison. Meaning if you all of a sudden, did get more sleep and did have less stress, you probably would find you feel so much better. Right? That's that's the key. And I see this for hormones as well, where women or men even, you know, feel a certain way. And they're like, Yeah, I'm fine. And then all of a sudden, we resolve some underlying issue. You know, we start strength training, eating more food and walking more, and all of a sudden, you feel great. And you're like, what happened? Well, it's because I regulate my hormones. Alright, so one more thing about that is that people in research settings who insist that they've like acclimated to shorter sleep, they perform equally as poorly on cognitive tests, as people who admit they're exhausted. So there's a massive perception that what do you call it? gap here, so don't assume that you're okay, just because you quote unquote, feel okay, when you probably would actually feel much better and perform better with more sleep. So if you short yourself on sleep, it's like, doing a minimum effective dose, not No, it's not a minimum minimum effective dose, it's like making minimum payments on your debt, right? Like, the interest is growing, and you're going to owe more and more, and it's going to catch up with you eventually, even if you can kind of skate by in the short term. And how that debt gets repaid, is with your declining health, with your lack of productivity, with low quality of life, all the things we talked about, and of course, Fat Loss and Muscle Building getting harder. So all of those things if you want to be playing the long game with everything, sleep has to be one of the most vital things in your life that you care about and try to improve. So let's talk about how to do that. Right. We know sleep is important you're like Philip shut up about it. You're like 24 minutes in and now I'm just like, you know, scared to death that, you know, if I only get seven hours of sleep, I'm gonna die. Get a diet at 50. All right. So we know it's important for all these things. But let's talk about practical tips. So I've got for you, I was like, should I should I do the typical like, here's 30 things you can do. Now I wanted to skinny the list down to seven, what I think are really important, mostly simple and straightforward actions. Okay, number one is the light exposure. Light is the major environmental cue that sets your circadian rhythm, right, the 24 hour biological clock is our circadian rhythm, it times our sleep or wakefulness, our cortisol, and blue light in particular, because that's what the sun has, right? Unfortunately, it's also what our screens have with our iPads, you know, iPhones, computers, everything have blue light suppresses melatonin, and that's the hormone that makes you sleepy. So if you want to fall asleep faster, you've got to cut out that blue light. As soon as you can, before you go to bed, ideally wants two hours, or and or you could wear blue light blocking glasses, that's what I do. Because I know I'm not going to, I just admit that I'm not going to escape blue light, it's in light bulbs, it's in random phone screens, I do like to watch TV at night, you know, relax, the day is over, I don't have energy for them to go. So turn on Netflix, right? We all do it, it's fine. But now you can wear amber color blue blocking glasses to block it out, I have an orange, I have a smart ball next to my bed that I can adjust to like an orange hue as well. So and the other thing you can do is you can either cover your nightlights or use like orange colored night lights, you can use a sleep mask, you know, you can make sure that you are fully covered. light exposure happens not just through your eyes with your skin as well. And the here's the here's the opposite of that is if you can get some bright light exposure early in the day from the sun, it's going to regulate your circadian rhythm from the front end. And it kind of tells you right now it's morning and set yourself up for better success later on. So that's light, light exposure in general, very, very important. Number two is a consistent sleep schedule, I've become a huge fan of this one. Because even those who do get a little bit less sleep than ideal, let's say you get six and a half hours of sleep every night, which I'll be I'll admit I am prone to do I have so much that I want to get done in the day. And then I want to spend time with my wife at night. And it's kind of like the schedule works. And I want to work out in the morning. You know, could I make a little more drastic changes to get an extra half hour an extra hour, of course. But I also know that there are there are parts of sleep quality that I can improve and one of those is being consistent. So when I go like seven nights in a row with the exact same bedtime and wait time, and only get an average of six and a half hours of sleep actually have a risk of violating my own rule feel pretty good. But I actually feel better, I'll say in relative terms than when I don't have a consistent schedule and get the same amount of sleep. That's what I was gonna say. So in relative terms, it seems to be a benefit. Because erratic bedtimes and wake times like number one with the light, they confuse that clock inside you that biological clock or not biological, the circadian rhythm, and that it makes it harder to fall asleep and wake up because your body is expecting you to go to sleep at this time. And now you're confusing it using a different time. You don't have to be like right on the minute, but within 30 to 60 minute window for waking and sleeping, even on the weekends, your body's gonna love that. Try that out. Okay, even if it's the same amount of sleep, try making sure that it is consistent. Number three is the classic pre bed ritual, the winding down ritual, because we all know sleep isn't just a switch, you can't just jump into bed and fall asleep. Now, you might and maybe that's a sign that you're overly tired to begin with. But there are many things you can do in the hour leading up to bed that can calm you down. I like reading, okay, I have a Kindle that has the orange spectrum light on it. So I can do like a nightlight version of it. I wear orange glasses, and I might even turn on the orange light bulb and just read for like 30 minutes, you know, calms me down gets me to bed, you might stretch, you might do meditation, you might do breath work, you might just journal before bed, you might take a hot shower or bath, right? Hot, not cold, because hot will cause your body to want to release the heat and it will cool you down. The caveat here is to avoid anything stimulating that revs you up or stresses you out. And of course, movies and TV and video games and all that tend to fall in that category. But even reading current reading code as well if it's like super stimulating or some traumatic, you know, or true crime or something like that. So just use your judgment. So that's the what pre bed Ritual number four is optimizing your overall environment. And this is just taking the time to look around your room as you as you listen to this podcast if you're in your house, if you're not do it later, do it later. And just kind of go through a checklist of things that you could you can just tweak that are permanent changes in your room for a while. So it needs to be dark, cool and quiet. Right and buy cool, we mean 65 to 68 degrees. And that doesn't always match your thermostat, right? Because how houses have the way they cool with with the fans and the air conditioner in the zones and all that may not exactly match, but it should, it should feel extremely comfortable and cool enough that you want to put some at least a sheet on if not a cover. And then things like blackout curtains. As some people like white noise machines, I prefer just no noise at all. But it's possibility breathable bedding, they do have fancy mattresses that can change their temperature, you can wear a sleep mask, right? All of those things. It's trying to keep electronics and light out, but trying to make it more like a cave when you sleep. So that's number four. Number five is timing, your strength training, your exercise and your food intake to improve your bedtime and your quality. All right, we know that movement is awesome in general, but also for sleep, whether it's training or some form of cardio walking, it actually is great for sleep, but not too close to bedtime. So we want to avoid like intense workouts three to four hours before bed for you nighttime lifters and nighttime exercisers, it behooves you to experiment with moving that up, you know, you don't have to be a 5am lifter, but moving it up from like six or 7pm. Or if you go after dinner, like that's probably too late for optimal sleep and moving it up to no later than say 4pm is something worth trying to see if it helps. If you are the type that needs to eat closer to bed, if you want to pre bed snack or you're you're eating a lot of calories. Again, the lighter and more digestible it is, as opposed to the big and heavy is going to reduce any disruption to your sleep. And then of course, caffeine is part of this, in that most people would be better off not having caffeine any any later than say one or 2pm in the afternoon. Now, you know, some people are like, well, I my last cup of coffee is three or four, I would really move it way up, say lunchtime, right. So for yourself again, I'm not even going to have it after I'm gonna have it with lunch at the latest and that's it. I'm done with coffee, I'm gonna move to decaf, decaf soda, whatever, and see if that helps your sleep. I think yeah, I think that covers the training and food. Number six is supplementation. It is worth mentioning, because some supplements do have some solid evidence behind them for improving sleep quality. Magnesium is my favorite because most people are deficient in magnesium anyway. All right, look for bioavailable forms of magnesium, and take them. I used to say with dinner, but I actually liked taking them closer to bed, like maybe an hour before bed, just to get the benefit for sleep quality. There are other things that I typically don't even recommend to clients, but you're welcome to research them. Glycine, l theanine, tart cherry juice. And there's probably other things out there. I'm not a huge fan of supplements in general, beyond the basics, you know, filling in the gaps. And I think I think magnesium is a big one. And then always start low and then assess your individual response. I mean, magnesium is pretty well known if you know, if you're female, probably three to 400 milligrams a day, male, probably four to 500 milligrams, and most pills are in that range. Other things like melatonin and CBD oil. Again, I recommend trying to improve everything without going that route, if you can, all right, and then once you've exhausted everything you're like, I still need some other help somehow, you know, you can look into those. Number seven, the last one that I wanted to offer today is, let's say you've gone into bed, you've done all the things. And now your brain is keeping you awake. Right? Okay, raise your hand virtually, if you know what I'm talking about. It's happened to all of us happens to me. Not that often, I would say maybe once or twice a month. But when it does happen, I know that if I just try to fall asleep, it's not going to happen. It might happen to you in the middle of the night, right? You wake up at like three, you're still couple hours away from getting up. And your body's like I gotta go to the bathroom and you go to the bathroom, you get back to bed. And guess what, you can't fall asleep because now your brain turns on and starts to think about things. I don't know if if you relate to this, but I actually will deliberately try to remain in a zombie state. I go, you know, open the toilet, use the bathroom. And I try to I actually deliberately try to not think if that makes any sense to you. And sometimes it works. I tried to keep my mind a blank slate. But anyway, that's not my tip for you. My tip is don't simply lie in bed awake for longer than like 20 minutes, right? You know, don't just toss and turn and get frustrated. Get up. This is fine. Just get up out of bed and do something. Maybe it's a calming activity that gets you sleepy. Maybe it's like cracking open that book again and letting it put you to sleep. Maybe it's writing things down. This helps a lot of people. This has helped me as well. I will not on your phone. Don't get the blue light going right throw those Amber glasses on. Keep the light very low. Don't wake up your spouse or significant other. But just have a notebook next to your bed and just jot down the stuff that's on your mind. You might have some inspiration And you might have some really cool insights. And then you wake up and you say, Oh, I'm actually glad that I couldn't get to sleep because I needed to get this off my mind. Or you say, Who the heck wrote that it's chicken scratch. But either way, it should help you get back to bed. Because you want to have that association between your bed and sleep, not your bed and not saving, okay? Now, some of these might seem basic you might have heard them before, it doesn't mean that they're easy to do I understand. It doesn't mean that they're not important, right? It's usually these unsexy fundamentals that give you the biggest return on investment for your effort. And that's why I included them in here. So just pick one or two. Okay, for you overachievers, if you want to go to pick one or two of these strategies, and implement it this week, and track how your sleep responds, if you wear an aura ring, great look at the data, but just track a few things track when you went to bed when you got up, and how you felt on a scale of one to 10 How well did I sleep, I have sometimes noticed these things overnight. Or I will notice when I'm, I'm getting into to habits that don't serve my sleep, like if I do happen to like, Oh, I gotta see the rest of that movie. Before I go to bed, you know, they just pop on Netflix in the bedroom, which I shouldn't have a TV in the bedroom, right? But I do. So there, I gotta learn how to do that. So when I do that, I know that when I wake up the next day, I'm not going to feel as well rested. And I know that and sometimes I make the choice to do it anyway. But that's a that's a poor trade off for my health. So none of us are perfect. I'm not perfect, either, implemented this week and see how it responds so that you can make that association between the thing and the improvement. And then those are going to snowball over time. Like any any habit. Okay, we covered a lot of ground today. You know, we talked about the science of what happens in your body and in your brain during sleep, how it impacts things like fat loss, building muscles, supporting your health, and then some strategies to upgrade your sleep. So if you take nothing else away from this, I do want you to recognize that sleep is not optional, it is not secondary. It's not like number six or seven on the list, like we often put it, it's when it comes to nutrition and training, it is equivalent. It's like the third leg of that stool, if I were to make a stool with three legs will be nutrition training, sleep. Okay, I know stress is important, but I kind of link stress as a as a downstream effect of some of these other things. And that'll give you a big return on your efforts both in the kitchen and in the gym, which is awesome. And then when it's on point, you're gonna have more energy, you're gonna have motivation, you'll be able to train hard and recover better, and then you can come back stronger the next session, you have an easier time controlling your appetite and cravings, emotional eating anyone, it could be your sleep, you're gonna make better food choices, you're gonna feel more balanced and capable of tackling the daily challenges. In this, this beautiful journey of fitness and health. Like it should be fun and sleep can make it more fun. When you try to skimp on sleep. If you just power through if you're you know, drunk on willpower and caffeine, then you're basically playing the game on on hardmode, or those of you who are into RPGs like I am hardcore mode, right? Except if you screw up, you're not just going to die. Apologies. Every aspect of this is harder, as we've said, right? It's less effective, it's less enjoyable. And that is not sustainable. No one has infinite willpower, you're going to break at some point. So for many of you sleep is the thing, sleep is the missing ingredients, the thing that you're doing, that's killing your gains, and improving it will unlock everything. Okay? Not tomorrow, not next week. Tonight, I want you to get serious about your sleep, commit to giving your body the rest, it needs to repair to restore to come back stronger. And I promise you nothing will be more productive than making that change today. And of course, if you need some more hand holding to build this or any other habit, the doors to which awaits physique University are always open, you get my wonderful, quirky personality there to guide you along the way, as well as many, many other fun activities and ways to learn and grow. And most importantly, you're gonna get a personalized nutrition protocol to maximize fat loss and muscle gain, and sleep of course, and many other things. You're gonna get customized workout programs every month, weekly live calls and workshops to help fast track all of this and get some individualized coaching, and of course, a community of lots of other ambitious folks who all listen to this podcast as well and they're gonna keep you accountable and on track. Go to Whitson weights.com/physique, to learn more and enroll. Again, that's Whitson weights comm slash physique. Thank you, as always, for joining me today and really nerding out about this stuff. This was kind of a fun topic to read research because it's been a while. And I was inspired by one of my clients who asked why all of his efforts, no, here's what he asked. He said, Why is my sleep improved so much? So this is an interesting one. Today we talked about things to do to improve your sleep. He asked Why did his sleep improve so much and we reverse engineered into all of the things that he's done? You know, he's awesome fat. He's improved his habits he he's improved his consistency all the things we talked about. And I'm like, That's why your sleep has improved. So the proof is in the pudding. All right in our next episode 179 the real reasons your scale weight fluctuates, it's not always fat gain. With Louise Digby, you will learn about all the reasons the scale weight fluctuates, the dangers of scale obsession and the importance of non scale victories. We discussed the role of hormones and weight management, the problem with restrictive dieting, and the emotional and psychological side of fat loss and body image, plus lots of tips for sustainable fat loss, please, the best thing you can do to support me right now is to hit follow in your podcast app. And you'll get notified when that episode comes out and support the show. And if you want bonus points, tell somebody else about the podcast. Just tell them hey, there's this awesome podcast, which and wait. It's for people who are skeptical of the fitness industry who want to train smarter not harder. Come on, check it out. As always, stay strong, and I'll talk to you next time here on The wit's end weights podcast.

Philip Pape  41:03

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Ep 177: How Anatomy Impacts Your Gut, Muscle Mass, Hormones, and Health with Justin Cottle

What are the common misconceptions about digestion and nutrient absorption? How does training sculpt your muscles, and what’s the hidden connection to your anatomy? Are you ready to discover the hidden dietary implications of your unique body variations?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Justin Cottle, a former lab director at the Institute of Human Anatomy and a pioneer in using real human cadavers for public education. He is a content creator and writer of the Dissection Room, where he shares his unique perspective on human anatomy, health, and fitness.

Justin discusses the digestive system's structure and functions, nutrient absorption, and hormonal effects. He also sheds light on the interplay between anatomy and exercise physiology, muscle hypertrophy, bone density, and neuroplasticity. Justin brings a fresh and intriguing perspective to human anatomy. He skillfully blends practical know-how with science, empowering you to make informed health decisions. His insights challenge and reshape conventional thinking about our bodies and their potential and redefine your understanding of your capabilities.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:56 How Justin’s interest in anatomy developed
6:30 Digestive system structure and functions
10:57 Nutrient absorption and hormonal effects
17:24 Diet recommendation for the average active human
20:26 How to approach hormone issues
23:32 Hype vs factual health information
28:08 Gut microbiome, dietary fibers, and diversifying your diet
32:05 Anatomical variations and dietary implications
40:02 Muscle hypertrophy and training impacts
44:05 Interplay between anatomy and exercise physiology
52:30 Bone density and nutritional support
56:00 Neuroplasticity and exercise
58:40 The fascial system and injury rehab
1:03:02 Where to find Justin
1:03:25 Outro

Episode resources:

• Youtube: The Dissection Room

• Substack: The Dissection Room

• Instagram: @realjustincottle

Episode summary:

In the realm of health and fitness, understanding the human body is a game-changer. This episode of Wits & Weights, featuring Justin Cottle, former lab director at the Institute of Human Anatomy, is a treasure trove of insights into how our anatomy directly influences our overall health and athletic performance. Through the course of the podcast, Justin guides us through the marvels of the human form, highlighting how every part, from the intricacies of our digestive system to the way our muscles and bones align, contributes to our well-being and physical capabilities.

Justin begins by sharing his unique journey, from working intimately with cadaver research to developing accessible anatomy curricula. His experiences have afforded him a profound appreciation for the human body and an understanding that goes beyond textbooks. He eloquently illustrates the power of anatomy, not just in understanding our health but also in making informed decisions that enhance our daily lives.

The episode takes a particularly deep dive into the complexity of our digestive system. Here, Justin's personal story of battling severe digestive issues brings an immediate and relatable perspective. He articulates the critical roles of various organs and the digestive journey, from ingestion to waste excretion, emphasizing the roles of enzymes and hormones in this process. Listeners gain a comprehensive overview of the importance of the liver and the vital gatekeeping functions it performs.

Moving on, the podcast addresses the conundrum of nutritional science and the impact of our dietary choices. Justin provides a balanced approach to nutrition, advocating for a diet rich in whole foods and diverse fibers to support gut health. He tackles the issue of fad diets and hormonal imbalances, stressing the necessity of personalized nutrition strategies and the importance of proper testing before making dietary changes.

Justin's insights into athletic performance are equally fascinating. He discusses anatomical differences that influence our physical abilities, such as muscle attachment points and motor unit distribution. These differences not only affect how we train but also our response to training. Strength training for bone health, particularly in women, and the groundbreaking findings on fascia's role in enhancing performance are discussed in detail.

Throughout the podcast, Justin offers actionable tips and groundbreaking revelations that can transform your approach to health and fitness. It is an episode packed with valuable information for anyone looking to optimize their physical self-mastery.

The knowledge shared in this podcast is a testament to the intricacies of human anatomy and its application in our everyday lives. Whether you are a health enthusiast, a fitness professional, or simply curious about your body, this episode of Wits and Weights with Justin Cottle provides the tools to understand and appreciate the fascinating world within us.

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Transcript

Justin Cottle  00:00

When you start looking at the body and individual differences, you'd be amazed at how different we are. Or you may be from that generalized plan that we teach to any kind of anatomy one on one type course.

Philip Pape  00:17

Welcome to the wits end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The Whitson weights Podcast. Today, I'm excited to welcome Justin Caudill, former lab director at the Institute of Human Anatomy. He's a pioneer in using real human cadavers to educate the public about the human body. Justin is also a content creator and writer at The Dissection Room, which is a very cool substack and YouTube channel devoted to dissecting life, creativity, lots and lots of different topics that go even well beyond just health and fitness. And the very idea of what it means to be human, I invited Justin to share how understanding our digestive systems anatomy can lead to better nutrient absorption, overall health, and then also how our bodies physically adapt to training. So we're going to try to cover both of those topics. Today, we're going to explore how to use anatomical knowledge for personal health and fitness strategies. So you can optimize all of these things. And I find that Justin has this very unique curious angle on human anatomy is why I wanted to bring them on combines the practical application with the science, to empower you to make informed health decisions and reshape how we think about our bodies and AR capabilities. Justin, it is pretty cool to have you on the show.

Justin Cottle  01:51

Thank you, Philip, that was quite the introduction. And I'm happy to be here. Awesome.

Philip Pape  01:56

Yeah. So let's get into the background of how you came to work with, you know, human anatomy, specifically by way of cadaver research. It's funny when I was coming up with titles for the episode, and actually I was using AI because I do like to do that to brainstorm. And it's like, all this stuff about corpses and beyond the grave. And I'm like, No, we're not gonna go all McCobb here. But I do want to understand how we can link, you know, that kind of information to practical decisions that we make. Tell us how that started to click for you. Like, where did you make that connection? And then how do you start? Did you start to communicate that in an understandable way?

Justin Cottle  02:30

No. So anatomy is, I'm fond of saying that anatomy is the baseline science, it's this. I mean, there's a reason why no matter what kind of health program you're taking, anatomy in some capacity is at its core. And that was the same for me when I started out, but I fell in love with anatomy. Soon as I took my very first anatomy class, it was really unintentional. I never really like I wasn't growing up thinking, Oh, I'm going to work with no body donors and cadavers. That was never a thought. It just kind of ended up being that way. When I took my first anatomy class, and realizing the power of human anatomy, not just in obviously explaining everything within health and fitness, but also just the mindset, I liken it a lot to almost like a watchmaker, where you have to when you know, the parts that everything is built of it is really easy to understand all these other things that are branching off of it. And I realized that very early on and just fell head over heels for anatomy. And one thing led to another and I ended up working in a cadaver lab. And that in itself is a completely different set. That's hard to say this like properly because a lot of people who take anatomy classes don't work in cadaver labs, you may have a cadaver lab, but to actually work in one is a different thing. And so when all of a sudden, I found myself having that opportunity to work with the actual body donors, that just fueled the passion even more, because then all of a sudden, it's not just looking at a textbook looking at an anatomy Atlas, it's holding the organs, it's performing the dissections yourself. And it's just an exciting thing that just out of nowhere, you know, I found myself having been doing it for 10 years. Again, all of it completely unintentional, but extremely exciting. nonetheless.

Philip Pape  04:13

I love your analogy of the watchmaker and really understanding what's underneath each layer. Because I have that same sense of if I don't get where it's coming from or how the connections are made. I don't just want to trust what you're telling me. You know, when I break it apart. A couple of things come to mind is versus art, like Leonardo da Vinci is well known for using human cadavers to understand anatomy and then translate that to how humans move and are portrayed in their strength and movement on the page. And I'm sure that you've gotten into some of that. I also just a few minutes ago, both my daughters, we homeschool our daughters, and they outline themselves on a big piece of paper and they're actually they drew a bunch of the major bones, and they're gonna like add layers to that. And I thought I'm like I told him about you that I was gonna be talking to you in a few minute. It's, and just I'm trying to understand again from deep down where all this comes from, because there's a lot of misinformation out there. There's a lot of experts telling you what to do. And here you are a guy that's, you know, coming from the science of it all. So, yeah, it's pretty cool. I don't have a question there just and I think it's, I just think it resonates. That

Justin Cottle  05:18

is really cool. I do want to say, you know, my hat's off to you, for homeschooling your children that is so cool. And it's something I'm really interested in myself is actually developing anatomy programs and curricula for home schoolers. So we may have to talk about that also in in different different time, because that is something I'm very interested in these days, but hats off to you.

Philip Pape  05:39

Cool, absolutely. And I think of like my wife, I'm gonna give her most of the credit for the day to day because she, you know, she actually runs our school and teaches them. But one of the things with homeschoolers, and this is relevant is they, at least there's a misconception that you have to be an expert, to teach anything like you have to be an expert teacher with a certification to do this. And it's just not the case. I think, if you have the passion and want to learn something, the best thing for kids is to learn how to learn. It's not to be dumped data, dumped information, it's to learn how to learn. And I see my kids now, you know, getting beyond my wife and me our knowledge, they're surpassing that at the age of 10 to 12, in many cases, and they're able to do that. So we try to do that on this podcast, too, is just like educate people and teach them how to find the information. So you have a great source of that. And for people, we're going to plug his stuff a few times here, but the Dissection Room, YouTube channel. Alright, cool, man. So one of the topics we wanted to talk about, because you said you had a personal connection to this was gut health, or I should say, digestive health, nutrient absorption. And hopefully we can segue from that into what that means for how we eat and how it helps us perform. But just just tell us, I guess, maybe we start with anatomy, or your story, we can go either way, like, start with the anatomy of the digestive system and the function and like how this is all relevant to us. Why do we care about this? Yeah,

Justin Cottle  06:58

so I think I can real quickly tell the story of why it's so relevant to me is in that in 2018, I found myself randomly having a small bowel obstruction, which is where my small intestine, which is the nutrient absorbing aspect of the GI tract, just essentially got blocked. And this normally happens to people in their 60s 70s, who have history of abdominal surgeries. And I didn't have any of that. And I ended up I got very close to actually passing away, but into kidney failure. And this all happened within just a couple days, I was 30 years old, really healthy, I'm you know, I'm ex military, like I take care of my body. And this just hit me. And I obviously ended up being okay. But what it did is it just fueled, which I was already obviously knowledgeable on the digestive system, but then all of a sudden, it became more relatable, it became, you know, important to me and personal. And so it just kind of has started this one has never really stopped this passionate, you know, investigation into the nuances of the digestive system. And so with that, you know, when we're talking about the digestive system, it's really you have to understand that it's the first thing to develop inside of the body. So before you have a brain before you have a heart, the actual developing embryo has a gut to know that's what anatomist actually call it. And so imagine eights in an imagination is just a tunneling inwards, where all the sudden you look at this tadpole looking creature, and this tunnel forms from the mouth, which really isn't the mouth at this point, all the way down towards the rectum. And everything about your body builds around that. And so it literally it's the axis of development. And when you think about it, you know, it's so that means, you know, your mouth, your lips, is just one hollow tube, if you could actually stick your hand through your mouth, and coat down the entire digestive tract, you're inside your body, but technically, you're outside your body, because it's one hollow tube from point A to point B. But everything happens there. We're talking chemical and mechanical digestion, nutrient absorption, excretion through waste. It's amazing, as someone who has had an actual, like real severe digestive issue, it's incredible to understand just how important it is, if things go wrong with your digestive system, you know, immediately. It's not, I'm not trying to, you know, turn this into like a contest of which is worse, but it's like with cancers or other types of dysfunctions and diseases that can be more subtle, but not digestive issues, digestive issues, they hit you and they hit you fast. And you know, very quickly that something is wrong. And I think that's something a lot of people understand intuitively, especially with poor diet, because it doesn't have to be a small bowel obstruction for you to understand that something is wrong with it, but I mean, just finish it up real quick right here, you know, so if we're talking the straight up anatomy, you know, you have your mouth, your oral cavity that goes down to your aside esophagus that goes down to your stomach, that then transitions into the small intestine. So the stomach is what kind of turns it turns it into like this soup called chyme. It's just a nutrient soup and then releases it into your small intestines, those are about 30 feet long, depending it could be anywhere, it could be as low as 15 feet. And that's where all the nutrients are absorbed. And then anything that isn't absorbed drops into the large intestine. And that's what's also people will call the colon, there is a little bit of a difference, but it's not that important. And then that's where you just kind of absorb waters and salts, and then that will obviously then be dedicated out as waste. So it starts in the mouth and ends at the anus. Yeah, I

Philip Pape  10:38

think that's awesome. I love this stuff, I can geek out on this stuff, I love the idea of the tube being both inside and outside the body. And you've already talked about the different processes at different stages, the chyme. And you know, I guess there's bile at some, in fact, saliva at the beginning, right, and then all the different fluids again, thinking about my daughter's talking about this stuff recently. And it's like, we don't talk about it at the dinner table. But we'll talk about how do like enzymes and hormones come into all of that facilitation of the breakdown. Because then I imagine that's gonna lead us to talking about how we utilize nutrients from what we eat, and then utilize those because we want to segue into that. But just real quickly, is there anything else we need to understand mechanistically hormones or enzymes or anything?

Justin Cottle  11:17

Well, so for when it comes to the enzyme, specifically, the enzymes, it's just something that is basically causing an action to occur on a molecule. So you have like proteases lipases. So anything that ends with ace is an enzyme, so a protease would break down proteins, a lipase would break down lipids, so you're going to have some enzymes that are actually inserted into the digestive tract at the stomach. But most of them happen in the very well, we would say, an anatomy proximal end of the small intestine, so that's the very beginning. So as soon as your stomach releases the contents into small intestine, that's where the liver, and that's where the pancreas start just dropping enzymes into the actual small intestine. And for one, it helps neutralize the stomach acidity. This is something that a lot of people think about stomach acid, hydrochloric acid, it could eat your small intestines, it could literally digest it, so you have to have a way to neutralize it. So as soon as your stomach empties into the small intestine, it's met with a neutralizing agent, and it neutralizes the stomach acidity. But you're also going to have enzymes that are being inserted into there to help break down carbs, lipids, and proteins. And that will continue all the way down into the large intestine. But at the same time, you know, once they get absorbed, and then they go to the liver, the liver is what actually I like to think of it almost like a bouncer at a club, where if you're on the list, it lets you through if you're not on the list, it's a hardcore club, and instead, it would destroy you. So easiest way I can describe this to people is like alcohol. The real easy example, when alcohol gets to the liver, the liver has various enzymes that will actually neutralize it, but you can overwhelm it, and then that can go into the bloodstream. And then obviously, that can cause repercussions elsewhere. point here is hormones don't really become affected until something passes the liver, and gets into the bloodstream. And then that's when it goes global. And that's where you're going to get many different hormonal responses based on the specific nutrient and just things in the composition of the blood. Cool.

Philip Pape  13:21

All right, so then that clarifies maybe two subtopics from this that we can cover one is the utilization of nutrients, you mentioned, macros, but even micros, and then how that then downstream effects, performance, building muscle, whatever I mean, the people, the listener of the show is very much into body composition and strength training and lifting and eating protein and all that fun stuff, carbs, and whatever. So the effects of those. And then since you mentioned hormones, we can talk about the downstream effects on things like your thyroid, which is a hot topic these days, especially for Peri and postmenopausal women worried about thyroid conditions, and like do I eat all the right foods with the right nutrients to do that? So yeah, let's start with the nutrient absorption piece of it. Sure.

Justin Cottle  14:02

So to be clear, when you're talking about nutrient absorption, what specifically do you want to talk macros

Philip Pape  14:07

and micros, let's

Justin Cottle  14:08

start there. Okay, so it really just kind of depends on I guess you can put it this way. So once everything gets boiled down into your stomach, in your stomach will rip it apart. And then that's where you have this that kind of is a macro soup, essentially. But once it gets into the small intestine, there are these little appendages called villi and villi. This is really wild have even like smaller little micro villi on them, and that's where all the capillaries are. And the capillaries are what are going to absorb all the nutrients and you want to get that typically as small as you possibly can because if something is too big, then it can't be absorbed. And so that's what the job is of the hydrochloric acid in the stomach as well as the enzymes coming from the liver, the gallbladder and the pancreas. So you'll have this micro and macro nutrients soup that is flowing through and then it gets up sorbed into the bloodstream. Once it gets into the bloodstream and goes to the liver, it really depends on the nutrient itself. It depends on a whole cascade of signals the pancreas, for instance, the pancreas has blood flowing through it, that is actually sampling your blood sugar levels. So it's sitting there going, okay, so I have this much sugar, so we need to either drop in insulin and reduce that or glucagon and increase that. And that's obviously then going to have an impact on all of the adipocytes, those, those are the cells that store lipids and your fat. And that is going to have an effect, you're also going to have an effect on inside of the muscle tissue as well, because how much sugar you have is going to be signaling to the muscle itself. Oh, do we need to store this in the form of glycogen, so then you can stuff that more full. So it really just kind of depends on this specific area, you almost to really understand how a micro or macro nutrient is going to be affecting an area, you almost have to say, this area or that area, this area. But then you have to start thinking about things like individual circumstances and genetics, individual health, all of those things. But when it comes down to micronutrients, micronutrients are more so like tools, while macronutrients are kind of like energy sources and building blocks. And so like lipids will be typically used to help improve the health of the cell. Actually, here's an easy way to say it, I'm very fond of this, this is one of my favorite sayings, you as a human being are essentially proteins wrapped in fat, and fueled with sugar. That's essentially what you are. And so then what your body has to do is figure out which cells need the protein, which cells need the lipids and which need the sugar. And then obviously, there's a whole various amount of metabolic pathways. So it just it is really that nuanced, though, you almost have to be like, Okay, how does it affect this area? How does it affect that area? And you can even get as nuanced as and what time did you wake up? You know, you know, how long have you been in a heavily fasted state? How, you know, not only were you working out, you know, was it resistance training? Or were you doing cardio, there's so many things that can literally impact just how these micro and macro molecules shuttle around the body and the way they actually go into the cells. Yeah,

Philip Pape  17:10

and this is where I can get into trouble as a nutrition coach, because like, we want to give people simple practical things to consider for them, without overwhelming them with the why. But I'm so fascinated by the why. And some people want to understand why all this stuff happened. So if you were to step back a level and say, for the average human who is active, right, which again, we're talking about folks who are active, maybe their strength training, is just a balanced approach and paying attention to how you feel the majority of it here, or is there some more knobs that you tend to play with when you recommend kind of what and how to eat in terms of your actual diet? It's

Justin Cottle  17:45

a such a good question. It's an important question too, because, you know, I am not the type of person who likes to feed into hype. But at the same time, sometimes hype is there for a reason. And there are certain things and there's certain signals that we should be listening to, at the same time, another saying that I'm very fond of saying, and I can't remember who the physicist was, but there was this theoretical physicist who said, I would never touch nutrition with a 10 foot pole, because it's too complicated. And I think that really kind of sums everything up. Because Nutritional Sciences, the compasses, it is so difficult to really figure out what's going on. You know, a lot of times people think you can just like, put in some kind of micro molecule, and look at it in the bloodstream and figure out exactly how a cell utilizes it. And unfortunately, that's just not the way it is. And so, a lot of times we are in the dark, we can look at things from a more just, you know, circumstantial study type perspective, where it's just like, oh, well, we gave some people some bread, and this is what happened, you know, it's more of an observational study. And I know we want better answers than that. But unfortunately, sometimes we just can't get those really nuanced answers that we really want with nutritional science, that's changing, that's getting better. And that's really exciting. But what I typically tell people is, it's best to start from a very generalized sense, and then start figuring out what works and what's not working for you. And that is something where someone like yourself really comes in handy because then you can start to titrate that right, you can start to go okay, well, we're gonna turn this knob here, we're going to turn that knob there. But the knobs that I turn, for me that I think just make most sense, is to get rid of as much Ultra processed foods as you possibly can to try and eat as many Whole Foods as you possibly can. You know, for me, I don't drink alcohol, I don't drink coffee, I try to like I try not have any caffeine if possible. That's not to say that you can't it's just, I personally find myself that works better for me, you know, so it's, I try to eat as much fiber as I possibly can. And I try to eat diverse sources of fiber, because diverse sources of fiber are going to be fantastic for your microbiome. But at the same time, it's like my main focus, if you could say would just be Whole Foods, drinking lots of water, getting plenty asleep, you know, trying to get good at Exercise and take care of my body. They're really general things that are really uncontroversial. But I also think it's that a lot of people just don't do.

Philip Pape  20:07

That's the best way to do it. You just put it there. It's not controversial, it's almost boring. It's not sexy, is what you got to do. And people aren't doing it. Oftentimes, they're looking for something to optimize when really they just need the big blocks. So yeah, the whole foods, hydration, limiting toxins of different kinds, and then diversity. So that leads me to you mentioned the microbiome, let's answer the hormone question, right? Where someone says, Well, I have hypothyroidism, let's say, and I want to address it naturally isn't just a matter of eating more. Oysters and Brazil nuts, you know, are like specific foods that have specific nutrient. And it may be I don't know, how do you approach the topic of hormones in general, and linking that to micro nutrition, as well as the anatomy of the digestive system?

Justin Cottle  20:54

It is so hard to have that conversation without someone doing the proper bloodwork, and actually figuring out what their levels are, you know, so many people in myself included with a lot of things. This is not to demonize anybody, because at the same time, you know, how available is it, I mean, it's gotten a lot more available, there's a lot of really fantastic testing that people can do home testing kits, for example. At the same time, though, when you're doing these types of things, in reality, to have a good understanding of how your hormones are really being affected, you don't just take one test, you need to take a series of tests, and then you need to be able to compare that data. And that's where things just kind of get difficult, if not outright impractical for people. So it's hard to say like, you know, will this work? Or won't this work, but I think generally speaking, yes, you know, oysters is going to be good for you. I mean, like, I love eating oysters, I love having, you know, just getting as much DHA and you know, like you want to take care of yourself and get the specific fats, proteins and healthy carbs that you are supposed to be getting. And there are different sources that may be more optimized. I don't know if that's not the right word, but just might be better for you, generally speaking,

Philip Pape  21:59

more nutrient dense, let's say more bang for your buck. Yeah,

Justin Cottle  22:02

that's the way to put it. That's the way to put it the same time, though, it's really hard to say it really is hard to say. And I know that's one of those no one likes that person being that person who's like, well, it depends.

Philip Pape  22:12

It depends. That's always the answer, though. But with

Justin Cottle  22:15

nutrition, it really does depend. And I think like you mentioned, people are always looking for that. Just give it to me now give it to me straight, what do I got to do? And I understand that I'm very sympathetic with it. But unfortunately, you don't know what you need to do unless you have data. And I'm not saying you need to have some, you know, become like, have like these analytics charts, you're not they don't necessarily need to have you be so robustly into this. But at the same time, if you're just flying in the dark, it's really going to be hit or miss. And so at the end of the day, I think I always encourage people, if they are curious about their hormones, and how their body is responding, they need to get tests done. And then from there, you can start to figure out what may need to happen. Cool.

Philip Pape  22:57

Yeah, that makes sense. And it does get confusing with tests because it's blood work saliva, urine, what do I get? Who do I go to? Because now you've got insurance and things involved, it doesn't always cover all of that. Got doctors that are sometimes clueless about it. And then there's functional medicine individuals. So you're right, it is a lot of that. It's funny, because I have I have some, like questionnaires that I can use with clients where I try to tease out some symptoms, at least to get started, because that's often a good starting point. And some of these questionnaires are like 30 questions because it is so complex with is your thyroid, is it testosterone, what is it? So that's good advice. And then you men you did allude to hype, and I want to get back to that. If you had to pick one thing that is actual hype, and one thing that's hyped, but real, that comes to mind that that's like often talked about in the industry, what would they be?

Justin Cottle  23:47

That is such a good question. So I mean, when it comes to hype, the thing that just naturally or that is doesn't live up to the hype, I guess I should say, the thing that naturally comes to mind are going to be fad diets. I think that's a general answer. But I mean, like, for instance, the carnivore diet, you know, and then here's the interesting thing, especially if we go back to keto, this is me. You know, I guess this is kind of like a humble brag, but I remember being into keto, almost 15 years ago, no one knew what keto was. And I was really interested in keto because of there's a really interesting researcher named DOM D'Agostino, and he DOM is the one who actually worked with the Navy SEALs, because the US government was like, hey, the ketogenic diet actually helps minimize seizures. And so they wanted to actually helped the, you know, the Special Operators not have seizures when they were using rebreathers underwater as they were actually going after the enemy. The whole point here is Dom D'Agostino. I was listening to him and really diving into the research for ketogenic diet, you know, back in like 2010, and no one knew what it was and I was really interested but as soon as it became a fad, everything went off the rails. Were all the sudden it's like, there's actually really interesting stuff about keto, but it gets lost so easily. And I find myself when I'm having a conversation about the ketogenic diet, I almost become anti keto, because I'm having to fight so many things, even though I'm actually a proponent of it under certain circumstances. Same with carnivore diet elimination diet, specifically, when people are just kind of like urging in mass. It's like that may work for certain in certain circumstances, but it just, I think, generally speaking, is almost never a long term solution for anybody in any circumstance. And so I think that's a real easy answer. But I think it's an important answer, because it's so easy for people to just jump onto these fad diets, even if they are healthy people, you know, it's not like you need to be losing 3040 50 pounds. It's just more so like, me naturally. The question, you know, if I want if I'm lifting too, maybe I just go carnivore, you know. And at the same time, I think people who've been lifting for long enough understand the importance of carbs and understand why that's probably not a good idea. But you still see those types of ideas out in the masses. So that would be the easy answer. But I still think it's an important one. And then one that lives up to the height is the microbiome. Easily, the microbiome is probably one of my favorite things to talk about something I could talk about for hours. And not just in the digestive system that just all over the body and its importance, but the importance of fiber and diverse sets of fiber, fermentable, fiber, non fermentable fiber, just understanding what these things are, but how beneficial they can be for our health. And a real easy example I can give is theirs. This is speculative. But I would not be surprised if many of the metabolic diseases and disorders that we see are really just a problem or an artifact of a bad microbiome, in the sense that people are just been eating such bland foods, that what's happened is there's no diversity. There's no resiliency in their gut and their bacteria are suffering. And it's just having far reaching repercussions. So the importance of fiber, I think is something that I'm really excited to see people getting on the microbiome bandwagon. At the same time, I will say this, and I'll be quick. I do think people have gone overboard with it. When it comes to prebiotic supplements, probiotic supplements, I think it's easy to start to just turn that into the fat. And that's what we've been seeing. But I still think at its core, it's pretty solid.

Philip Pape  27:16

Those are two really solid answers. I mean, the fad diets for sure we talk about all the time of you know, at the end of the day, it's what's sustainable for you. But at the same time, even if quote unquote fad diet is sustainable. From a practical standpoint, are you still missing out in other areas. And that's where I tell people to really take the whole picture into account. Like if you're doing carnivore and all this stuff is great, but something else is not quite there. That could be a red flag of okay, you're missing some plants, maybe you should have broccoli. And speaking of broccoli, like when I hear influencers, say broccoli is now bad for you, because it has goitrogens and it's going to inhibit iodine absorption. And you're like, Oh, really, and people are freaked out and like Well, only if you eat like, you know, gobs and gobs of raw broccoli every single day forever, and have inflamed thyroid at the same time or whatever. So that's a good segue because we are talking about digestive health. You talked about diverse sources of fiber, probably having enough fiber and having enough diversity of food in general. I've also heard, you know, things we can't control as much but are important our early stage in our life, like from infancy and the type of birth and breastfeeding. And like having pets and all of that. What would you say when it comes to gut health and the microbiome are the top few things that people have the most control over as adults. And maybe you already mentioned it with the fiber, but like a couple actions people should take or assess in their lives now

Justin Cottle  28:38

that would help that. So easy things that people can do is when I say diversity, I really mean that in a very simple sense. So for instance, if you can break down fiber into two, there's different ways you can break down fiber, right soluble, non soluble, but my preferred way to break it down is fermentable. And non fermentable. fermentable. Fiber is the type of fiber that many species of bacteria in your gut will break down and then obviously they ferment and you produce gas. So the main sources of fermentable fibers that I like to bring people's attention to are going to be insulin, and pectin. Insulin, you find that like in garlic, onions, pectin, a lot of times you'll find that in the skins of fruit. So like, you know, pears, apples. So when you're talking about diversity, you have different kinds of life. So just picture yourself in the grocery store. You see like a gala apple, you see a Fuji apple, right, you see a red delicious apple, those are three different sources of pectin. And that can actually impact your microbiome in subtle ways, but still meaningful ways. Meaning, try to get around or at least I tried to get around 20 different sources of fermentable fiber in my diet are wheat. And that can be as simple as just going to the produce section. And you know, you're looking at like yellow squash versus zucchini. Well, those that's going to be different. Yes, there's They'll squash, butternut squash, and trying to get the skins trying to get the fiber content in there. And you're helping your microbiome because you're giving diverse food sources to those microbiota. So those species, and what that does is it builds up resiliency, because you have to think about it, it's almost like there's a turf war inside of your colon, where you have millions of different species, and then millions of those species. So there's hundreds of millions, like, I mean, literally, maybe 500 million species inside, not species, 500 million bacteria inside of your colon, there's only so much space, if you just eat the same food source over and over, what you're doing is you're only giving food to the species that consume that. And what happens is the ones that don't start to die away, and then the other ones start to take their space. And so even if you start eating more diverse food sources, you may have already killed the bacteria that could have broken it down and benefited from it. And that's why for me, it's like, I think just having a diverse diet is early starting as early as possible, right, we're talking, you know, this is where the importance of your fruits and your veggies, giving it to your three and four year olds, right, just getting them to understand the benefits giving them any, you know, obviously, you can cook them, you don't have to give them raw broccoli, that's no one's gonna like that. But finding ways to really turn that into a habit, and just simple ways of going to the grocery store and just going, Hey, I haven't had that Apple, you know, I haven't had I haven't had that type of onion. You try those different sources. And if all else fails, you can always go the supplement route. But I think it's a real easy thing that people can do.

Philip Pape  31:39

That is awesome. I haven't heard it put that way. And I'm like already thinking, you know, I gotta go generate a list of all these foods separated by those types, you probably have something like that already, or did a video on it, I'm sure. But still, that can be a super helpful resource for folks. Yeah, I didn't even think about like having different types of the same fruit, just to get the different pectin and the skins and speaking of pectin, and all types of fiber, we don't, we often don't break down things. beyond what we see on the nutrition label, right? We see macros and micros, and even not all the micros listen on the label. And there's all these other compounds, these beneficial compounds in the various aspects of the foods, antioxidants, whatever that you get from the diversity. So I think that's a really good message.

32:21

My name is Tony Romo strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil in his Watson weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor, he's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. And one of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches, he also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him. And we'll help you out. Thanks.

Philip Pape  33:05

So before we move to the second topic, because man, this could be like a two hour podcast, if at the rate we're going seriously, what about individual differences in anatomy? Or even like pathological conditions that affect some of what we're talking about? Is that worth getting? bothered about? worth discussing? Or is it more of a like, when you have a problem, you deal with it?

Justin Cottle  33:27

You know, so I think like, the way I think about it, is there is the intellectual side of it. And then there's the practical realist side of it, where, intellectually I think it's a very fascinating conversation. But practically, there's not much you can really do about it. In terms of say, like, let's talk about just the individual anatomy aspect. The digestive system can vary, like I said, the small intestine can be anywhere between 15 and 30 feet long. Now, if you were to look at the data, you might be like, huh, I think Shaquille O'Neal probably would have a longer, small intestine, right? He's bigger. But if you look at the data, it doesn't actually always correlate a height, meaning a taller individual might have a smaller length and small intestine and is shorter individual might have a longer small intestine, why that makes a difference. If you have a longer small intestine, there's more time for nutrients to be absorbed. You get more nutrition from the food you eat. If you have a smaller small intestine, you get less nutrition from it. And that can actually impact your diet. The thing is, how do you figure out how long your small intestine is? Right? There's not really many tests for you to do this, right? You go talk to your GI doc and just be like, Hey, I would like to measure my small intestine and look, I mean, they're not really going to be able to do that for you. And so that's where all the sudden it goes into that practical realm of I don't know what to do with it. Obviously, there's going to be you know, digestive issues, you know, you have celiac disease, you have Crohn's disease, you have immune diseases. There's so there's that is more pressing. To call, obviously, you can kind of tackle that. But I think what I personally think is the best response for most diseases of the gastrointestinal tract is still to tackle diet right at the very beginning. And you find it doesn't fix it. I'm not here to say it fixes things, but it does alleviate a lot of problems. And so it's hard to get, you have to take it on an individual basis. But there are differences in people's anatomy, there are differences that people can measure in some aspects. But usually, there's not much you can do about it. In a lot of ways, it's just it's hard, it's complicated you, you would need to have a considerable amount of money to be able to do a considerable amount of tests in order to figure out the nuances of your own body, or you could let someone distract you. And that's probably not going to work for you either.

Philip Pape  35:47

It's interesting, what comes to mind for me is when you talked about, it generally starts with diet, which totally agree with that philosophy, like let's do things naturally as best as possible, and then see what's left that we might have to deal with. So I have an esophageal condition called eosinophilic, esophagitis, I had it since I was young, where it made it very tough to swallow, because I have these little nodules in my esophagus, eosinophils that migrate there, there's some protein that causes them to migrate there. And before there was a medication for it, there's an asthma medication that they labeled, they tested, it actually worked on this, and I take it and it works wonders. But before that was the case, I had two options, either take some sort of like beta blocker or something like that, or eliminate dairy, gluten and like for other foods, like almost every food I enjoy, right? So what are your thoughts on like, because that's where it trade, there could be a trade off, I could have done an elimination diet and found it was just one thing. And then but I'd rather just inject myself and enjoy all those foods. And maybe that's not the right approach. What are your thoughts on those kinds of things.

Justin Cottle  36:49

So this is why I'm so passionate about the microbiome, is because when researchers first found the hodza, the hodza, were are one of the last remaining hunter gatherers on the planet there in Tanzania, when they first stumbled upon them, the children's bellies were bloated. And that is a huge signifier of malnutrition. Well, they weren't malnutritioned, they actually were fermenting their guts were so big, they were just so full of gas. And researchers have learned. And this has been on a steady decline, because the hodza are starting to become integrated into modern society. The hodza are the healthiest people on the planet. You know, obviously, they die of blood borne diseases like malaria. But you have hodza hunters who can literally take rock Holan from an antelope and chew on it. And they can scoop out the contents of an antelope stomach, and put it in their mouth and chew on that and spit it out, they'll be covered in blood and feces, and then they will come back and hold their children and the children don't get sick. It's like it's hard, because again, you don't want to feed into the hype of this. But when you look at it, their diversity of their microbiome, the average Westerner or American citizen, has around three to 500 species of bacteria. One species could have hundreds of millions of individuals in it. But my point here is you only have about three to 500. The hodza have over 1000 different species of bacteria over double. And it's also all over their bodies. And so what we're finding is that the microbiome is not important in pretty much every single aspect of your life that you can imagine, including resiliency, and resistance to infections, and different things of that nature. And so when we say like, it all starts with diet, it really does all likely start with diet. And figuring out how to optimize your health around that is one of the best things or most important things we can be doing. But that's hard. That's a really hard problem to solve. I don't want to make it seem like oh, yeah, we can easily figure out all the bacteria and everything. But when people have, you know, like autoimmune diseases like you have, when people have these types of things, those are real, serious problems. And so to figure out what to do around that, you know, obviously, it's very individual, but at the same time, diet, starting the diet is still likely the best place to begin, if it doesn't work. And if we do do need to go to immunotherapies, or an asthma medication in your instance. That's awesome. That's cool. That's where we've done cool science and we figured out another solution to a problem. But at the same time, it's like it should start with that. For sure.

Philip Pape  39:30

Okay, cool. Yeah, no, I always fascinated by that kind of stuff. Because now we have biologics and all sorts of crazy ways to solve some of these things. But I also understand people have practicality and sustainability and like, what they want to live with and versus the indulgences thing, even things like alcohol, you know, I'm always having conversations with clients who rationalize the heck out of it, but still, at the end of the day, they're like, I choose to imbibe a few times a week because I'm, there's for whatever reason that I get enjoyment out of it, and I'm going to do it so It's always interesting from a practical standpoint. All right, you want to talk about training? Sure. Yeah. So we got a lot of lifters in our community. We talked about adaptation, you know, muscular adaptations to training. And I think obviously, the anatomy is huge here when we talk about the physical, the musculoskeletal system. So get out of the gut. Now over to the other parts of the body, I think the gut may still come in here. Where do we even start here? So, strength and hypertrophy are goals for a lot of individuals, we understand a lot of what it takes to go from A to B, even though I know the research is still out on all the mechanisms underneath. So why don't we start with hypertrophy, because that's the most talked about one, and the influence of training variables and muscle adaptation for that in the context of anatomy. And I'm just curious to hear kind of your unique take beyond what what we hear every day in the fitness industry. So

Justin Cottle  40:53

the way I like to approach strength versus hypertrophy from an anatomical perspective, is you really have to think about it from the body's perspective. So the body has no idea. So think about it, like a baby is born, has no idea what environment is going to be there, what demands are going to be placed on it. And so, obviously, genetics are played a massive role, right? You look at the body form, say, of an individual from Kenya, that's going to be different than say, you know, someone from Serbia, obviously, there's going to be differences there. But at the same time, there is still this blank slate, even with muscle physiology. And so the thing I like to bring to a lot of people's attention are satellite cells. satellite cells, are a type of stem cell that exist on the periphery of muscle cells of skeletal muscle cells. And they're basically they're waiting for a sign or a physical signal, a stress signal to tell them what to be and how to be. And there's a little bit, they can even switch fiber types, right? If we're talking about fast twitch versus slow twitch, there's little nuances with that. But at the end of the day, it really kind of just depends on the demands of your environment, and what that's going to do to the actual cells waiting. And what's cool, is once they say, like, if we're going to be hypertrophic, right, when you become hypertrophic, you need multiple nuclei, to actually fuel that cell is the cell gets so big, that you don't need all these nuclei to be like, Oh, I gotta regulate this, I gotta regulate that I gotta regulate this. So what'll happen is, as you become hypertrophic, you take satellite cells, merge them into pre existing skeletal muscle cells, it grows bigger, and now you have more nuclei. But then let's say you get injured, you get injured, and you need to rest, obviously, your hypertrophy goes down, but the the nuclei stay. And when the nuclei stay, that makes it actually easier to bounce back and rebound. And you see this all the time and resistance training is that people like, oh, it was harder for me to get the gains in the beginning, it's easier to get them again, you know, after time, and that's because you actually retained the nuclei. And that likely plays a role in helping you become hypertrophic faster. Every single time I dive deep into the literature around hypertrophy and strength, and just like the nuances, there's still so much to learn it, there is still so much to learn there in a lot of times, it's hard for me to even say like, I feel comfortable saying this versus that, because there's so much that we just don't know at that granular level. Fortunately, we know enough at the macro level. It's just like, oh, no, like, you know, like, these are the sets these are the reps are going to do this is the weights. We know enough that the practical sense that I think it helps, but at the physiological micro sense, there's still a ton of mystery as to what's actually going on.

Philip Pape  43:43

Yeah, really cool. All right. So there's definitely some things I want to get into here. You know, one thing is there is a high variability of individual response, we've seen that even when in a lab setting, there are trainers telling you exactly how to train and to be intense and execute properly, right? Because sometimes you could just say it's poor form, poor execution and not enough intensity. But even the training variables may have to change from one person to another, like which things you progress and what rep ranges you work in. And so there's a lot of variability. So that's a lot of trial and error. But what causes that variability in response when it comes to the anatomy and to the kind of the recovery in the adaptation process? And it's a big question.

Justin Cottle  44:24

It's a great question. So this is, here's a good way to think about it. When I teach anatomy in the classroom, or if anyone looks at a video about anatomy, you are looking at the average of averages, right? So it's like, there's certain things that we can pretty much guarantee are going to be pretty consistent, right? Your forearms, you have five fingers on two hands, right? There's certain things that are just pretty consistent, but when you start zooming in and zooming in and zooming in, you're gonna see a whole lot of variability. So real easy example I like to give, there are 16 anatomically correct positions for your gallbladder. So, right now the gallbladder we teach sits underneath the liver on the right side, those 16 subtle variations are just like they're kind of just moving a little bit. It's not like it's huge. It's not like your gallbladder is in your foot. But the point I'm trying to make here is, when you start looking at the body and individual differences, you'd be amazed at how different we are. Or you may be from that generalized plan that we teach to any kind of anatomy, one on one type course. And so when it comes to muscle physiology, one thing you have to think about is the different amount of neurons the different amount of synapses, right? So like motor units, for example, right, so a motor unit is one neuron. And how many muscle cells it's attached to, there are averages, right, and it also depends on the muscle group. So for instance, I think like in gastroc, so gastrocnemius and your calves, one neuron, I think goes to about 1600, different muscle cells, muscle fibers, so that means if that one neuron fires, all 1600 of gastroc fibers fire at the same time. That's the average, right? So if I were to say, Look at, look at your calves, we measure it to my calves, mine might be much smaller, my motor unit would be smaller, yours might be larger. And that can actually make a difference in terms of power. Right. So for instance, gastroc, you don't need to have a too small because gastroc just really needs to push off the ground. That's all it really needs to be able to do. But that means though, for certain people, especially what's interesting, when you look at the differences in elite athletes, what I love to tell people is it's like, what's the difference between first and second place at the Olympics? The 10th of a second, right? You know, they do the same training, they put all this kind of stuff. So then you know, for a fact, then why again, we look say, Michael Phelps, why is he so different? We've looked and done tests on Michael Phelps, and we have on many of these elite athletes, and you see that they genetically, they have just different amounts of motor units, they have different amounts of fast twitch versus slow twitch, there's all these variabilities. And we don't know exactly why they always distribute the way they do. Obviously, genetics plays a role. Sometimes the environment can even shift that in certain circumstances. But to say like, what is it that's what's going on? Why is this person different than this person, it's really just nature experimenting. Because it's like as, as nature's just kind of throwing out there's little variabilities in the DNA. And if that's successful, then they're likely to pass on their genes. And then that just keeps on going and going and going. And so it's really just nature experimenting, I know, it's again, that's not a really satisfying answer as to what makes these individual differences. But it's really fascinating to see, especially someone who's looked in the body when so when I perform a dissection, you will see so many differences. You're just like, Whoa, that lung looks weird. You know what I mean? That in a respectful sense, but you're like it, you'd be blown away with how different everybody is, from that generalized blueprint. And so when it comes to athletics and fitness, in the microscale, those differences can really start to show up. I

Philip Pape  48:13

love this stuff. I mean, that what you're describing is like the anatomy is the microcosm of the bigger differences we all see between humans, like we know are different. And you're right. It's like evolution constantly happening, even though we don't realize that's the case. And partly because humans all spread their genes nowadays, right? Like we can all survive given modern technology. I want to recap a few things just for the listener, and I find fascinating. You talked about how they're, you know, multiple nuclei to fuel muscle cell, and then the drawers in the satellite cells, so it can grow bigger, and then they stay there, which explains why if you're D trained, and then years later, you get back into it. And I've seen this with clients who are D train, I'm like, wow, they're super responsive, when they come back, it's a great reason to, like start today building muscle, because it's gonna benefit you for the long run no matter what age you are. Also, the fact that the individual responses are so different with motor units and fasten sojitz fibers, for example, that would explain some of the differences with like power and vertical jump capability with athletes. We also have different limb lanes, different proportions that affect your movement patterns, like with your squat and stuff like that. So it just the big message is you everyone's different, and you've got to find what works for you. You've got to experiment and kind of use the general guidance that we talked about, but then immediately collect data that shows you whether that guidance is kind of on the norm or is on the outliers of that bell curve.

Justin Cottle  49:34

And if sorry, if I don't mean to interrupt you, but you actually reminded me of one more thing that I think your listeners really enjoy. One of my favorite things to do when I would show people this in the lab is so again, if we think about that generalized blueprint, there's inferior teaching skeletal muscle anatomy, we always talk about origins versus insertion. So basically, it's just what parts of the bones to the muscles attached to. So when I'm teaching it in the classroom, I always teach it the same, but it's not Always the same in reality. And so I want you to think about this from a mechanical standpoint, if a muscle attaches on a bone, maybe even a centimeter different from where it should I say should in quotation marks are the averages? What kind of effect is that going to have on leverage? So you can see this, like one of my, one of my favorite examples is latissimus dorsi. So latissimus dorsi is the broad muscle on your back? Well, for most of the human population, it doesn't touch the scapula, it goes right underneath the inferior angle, but for some people, it goes on top. And it actually covers the inferior angle of the scapula. So then what you can do is start thinking, well, what would that do to the scapula, the scapula would then be more strongly anchored to your torso. What would that mean? Well, for certain activities, you're going to be limited, right? So maybe rock climbing would not be your best, because then you're going to have some kind of limited range of motion. But at the same time, you're going to be more stable. So maybe gymnastics might actually be better for someone like that. What's fascinating is, and again, there's not really easy tests for this to figure out where your muscle differences or abnormalities are, but you're likely amazing and perfectly fit for some activity, you're great at, you're generally good at all these different ones, but who knows, you might be the world's best ping pong player and just never know it. Like who knows your muscles might literally be formed for one specific activity, and you could be an elite athlete in that if you were able to train from that from an early age, it's just a really interesting thing to think about that muscles, literally, if they attach to slightly differently, you want to talk about the effect on the vertical. I mean, that can be profound if gastroc and soleus are attached to the calcaneus in a subtly different way. And then you pack in some different fast twitch fibers, all of a sudden, you can see, you know, brawny James, who just recently had like a 40 foot, well enough 40 4040 inch 40 and a half inch vertical, it's amazing, you can start to see subtleties really show up. Yeah,

Philip Pape  52:01

we see that as well with both bodybuilding and powerlifting and powerlifting. With the leverages, you know, you might have a much better squat and deadlift, or vice versa, because of some of those insertions or you see that with the bench press as well. And then in bodybuilding, it affects your symmetry and your look in oftentimes, like the peak of your bicep and things like that, whether it's closer or farther away. So not that you can do anything about it. But it's good to know what they are. And then maybe try a bunch of different sports and a bunch of different things to see if all of a sudden you're you're really good at this. Let's talk about bone health, too, because it often gets lost in the discussion when we talk about training and strength. I've worked with a lot of women, and obviously osteopenia and osteoporosis are big concerns. And, you know, for me, the top thing I recommend is strength training, right, because of the actual changes to your bones structure that get induced. So tell us about that. What have you seen, like maybe in cadavers, we see a different intensity from a lifetime of lifting versus being sedentary or things like that.

Justin Cottle  52:55

So unfortunately, with the how the body donor industry works is that if you are basically under the age of 55, and you pass away, you are likely to have your organs harvested. Even if you were signed up to donate your body, because you're young enough, your organs are still likely healthy enough that they can save a life. So what that means is for body donors, we really don't see them until they're at the end of their life. So we're talking 6070 8090, even 100 years old, it's obviously you're looking at individuals who are far past optimal health. There's only been a few instances where you'll see a younger individual, it's really special circumstances, I didn't get to see it. But at the local university, University of Utah, I'm in Utah right now, a few years ago, they did have a bodybuilder I didn't get to see the individual. And it's like, I really wish I could go seen that. But the stories are heard, were incredible to look at the because we're all so used to seeing a 75 year old, you know, who had cancer, their body is just riddled in atrophy and disease. So it's hard to actually be able to tell, in fact, it's not that I say you couldn't, but we also would don't get a medical history on the individual. So I don't know what's going on. And there's this level of guesswork with it. But at the end of the day, you can still tell them people are more active than not. Right. So you can definitely tell when people are just outright sedentary. You can see it because the bones will literally shape to whatever form so if they're hunched over, right, if they're sitting in a wheelchair or a lazy boy, or if they're laying in bed, you can see those impacts on the joints, or how it impacts the joints. And you can see when people obviously just their posture, like especially like if we make a not to be too graphic, but if we make a cut right down the middle of the body, it's called a sagittal cut. What you can do is you can see the inside of the entire vertebral column. And when you see that you can see postural shifts postural changes, but you can also see the density of what we call spongy bone and how thick the little arches are inside of that and so the thicker they are. This is almost always true. The thicker they are the healthier the bone there are some differences. But the point I'm trying to make here is I can often tell like, oh, this person was 80. Yes, they died of cancer, but they were actually pretty active. This other individual, you can see just the thinning of the bone. And you can tell, okay, they were likely on active and you can also see their bones are just literally shaped differently based on how they were sitting. So, unfortunately, you can't look at someone and say, Oh, they lifted weights, or anything like that, just at that age. It doesn't work as I wish. But unfortunately, it's more of a guessing game at that point. Yeah,

Philip Pape  55:28

yes, we have to settle for DEXA scans and stuff of living people, we do see that I was just curious. But the logic holds, then if you see the bones getting more brittle and spongy due to lack of activity, and simply walking and holding up your normal frame that does load your musculoskeletal system, regardless, keeps them from doing that, it goes to reason that adding more load would make them more dense and strong, which, you know, we know again, we know from living people. I was just curious on the cadaver side. Okay, so that addresses activity. What about neurological adaptations to training? Is there any is there an aspect of anatomy, we're able to see that given that it's in the brain, but I assume it's also tied up with the nervous system in some physical way?

Justin Cottle  56:09

I don't know. So there's nothing you can really see with the naked eye. If you're looking at say, like slides, if you're looking at some kind of like micrograph or something, you're going to be able to see just how the nervous system does adapt. And the nervous system adapts in some really cool ways. I think a lot of people are understanding of the plasticity of the brain and how neurons can actually move around there. But there's also some plasticity at the actual neuromuscular junction, there's some plasticity, as works with the what's called the fascial system. So and how that is all innervated. But it's hard to, you can't really see that with the naked eye. And so for me, in my experience, I've worked in what are called gross anatomy labs. So gross anatomy lab is just what you see with the naked eye. So we were never using like a microscope or anything along those lines. So I don't have a lot of experience myself in really analyzing the plasticity at a practical level. But I can tell you intellectually, and what I've read in the research is that you do see that, obviously, you know, if you are prioritizing a specific workout a specific lifts, I mean, like for instance, say like you're a rower, you are a competitive rower, say in college or something, well, obviously, your nervous system is going to adapt not just in your actual brain, but at the level of the muscles right at the joints, you're gonna see plasticity around the actual neurons inside the joints. This is something I don't think a lot of people understand. Because they're called like joint kinesthetic receptors, you have receptors that monitor the positions of the joints, those can become more finely attuned. And so they can actually send feedback to the brain quicker and more efficiently, so that you can get better response time and reactionary time. So those types of things we know about, we see that in the literature, it's something you can train for, to some aspect, but it's not as simple as like, Oh, I'm just going to do this one activity, and then I'll become superhuman at it. Obviously, there's limitations to it. But at the same time, the body definitely does adapt at that neuro muscular level.

Philip Pape  58:08

That's amazing man. This is this is one of the coolest interviews I've ever had just because you're coming with like unique things that people don't think a lot about. And I just learned something I didn't even know there was those kinds of neurons inside the joints. You said they were joint kinesthetic receptors. And that kind of makes sense. We use the terms muscle memory and all of these things. And I'm assuming that's what we're talking about when we develop a pattern, and we repeat that pattern. And then it gets reinforced to the point where it's almost automatic. And you're right, like the reaction time picks up as a result. And the fascial system as well. How does that come into play the fascial system? I'm familiar with that somewhat with like massage, for example, an injury rehab.

Justin Cottle  58:45

So fascia is one of the most misunderstood layers of the body. And so the historically speaking from an anatomist perspective, fascia was the thing you removed to get to what's interesting. So for people to understand this, you were to remove the skin. Before you get to the muscle, there's this connective tissue layer that goes on top of the muscles. That's what we call the fascia. So fascia since it's been largely ignored. There has not been a lot of research and even today, it's controversial. What you'll see is people in the massage realm, right so chiropractic massage, physical therapy even will get in there. A lot of them are real big fans of fascia. But then if you look at say, like classical anatomist who are more academic anatomist, they're still kind of like it's not that big of a deal. In terms of like, you can definitely have fascial issues. But in terms of like boosting performance dramatically, a lot of people are skeptical. And I've looked at the data on all sides on all sides, and it's hard to really make up my own mind on where I sit with it. But the thing is, fascia is very richly innervated. So it's not just this connective tissue layer. There are plenty of neurons in there and what they're doing is they're sending feedback. To the brain about the position of muscles, the overall tightness because you have to think about like this, if you say like on your arm, so the arm, fascia wraps the muscles of your arm and creates what's called a compartment, and that compartment is pressurized, if you actually cut the fascia that reduces the efficiency of the muscles inside of that compartment by as much as 15%. So, what that also means is, let's say like, well, what impact end does hypertrophy have on the fascia? These are these are active and open questions that people are looking at to see how that can be reflected inside of performance. And we just unfortunately, don't have a lot of answers around it. Because it's been ignored for so long. The data we do have. And I say this with respect comes from people that are highly biased, right? Like the fascial research comes from the fascial Research Society or things like that, where not to say that it's outright wrong, but at the same time, it's like we need more data before we can really understand what's going on. So it's hard to really talk about fascia outside of the hype. Just understand there's a lot of active research going into fascia, because there does look to be some exciting stuff.

Philip Pape  1:01:11

Okay, yeah, I mentioned the massage therapist, because I tried to get one every month. And she's like, Yeah, you know, she'll mention it. Again. I've heard it within the physical therapy realm. But it is pretty cool that there are obvious mechanistic and physical interactions that we can prove with, like you said, if you cut it or something, and so then what's the reverse on that in terms of how we can impact it? Very cool questions, lots of excellent questions. I guess. The last thing here, is there anything you wish I had asked you related to personalizing your training and nutrition around anatomy?

Justin Cottle  1:01:44

You know, that's a really good question. I don't know. I think we got around, I thought we did pretty well today. I don't know that there's anything that just jumps to my mind. I think what I would like to tell people is that anatomy is oftentimes a boring science. And I say that as someone who loves it, because anatomy is a science of just classification. It's just like, here's, you know, this is your, you know, this is your flexor carpi radialis, you know, like it attaches here to, that's a pretty boring thing, but the power that comes from it, especially for those who are really interested in their body. You can't oversell it. It's an amazing science that I encourage everyone to look into. And there's plenty of fantastic resources online for it. But in terms of like, questions that I think we covered pretty much everything I generally speaking everything that I would have liked to, yeah,

Philip Pape  1:02:33

no, it's awesome. I didn't know some of the things we uncovered. It's gonna get me to want to look more into anatomy in my practice, and for the podcast, as well. And I'll probably hit you up on like some of these really good resources besides you, which you're an amazing resource, of course, for folks, because I think we take what's the word, we take too much of an anecdotal approach sometimes. And some of these, these big questions are being answered out there. And we just need to start merging the different disciplines, even more powerfully. So where Justin, can people learn more about you and your work? Yeah, so

Justin Cottle  1:03:05

like you mentioned, the Dissection Room is what I'm doing. There's a YouTube channel called the Dissection Room. You can find me on Instagram. I think my instagram handle is real Justin Caudill. Just you can send me DMS and everything going there. substack, the Dissection Room?

Philip Pape  1:03:19

Those are the places to find me these days. Cool. Yeah. And guys, check out his YouTube channel because it's super highly produced for one. So kudos on like the production quality. But the topics are just they're Legion. I mean, they're across the board. There's, if you're just into geeking out on anything, whether it's technology or philosophy or whatever, he's probably got it covered in there. Very long library of really cool stuff, and especially a lot in the health realm as well because of the anatomy angle. Thanks again, man. Justin, this has been a lot of fun. We learned a lot. The listener learned a lot and it was a pleasure having you on. Thanks, Bill.

Justin Cottle  1:03:52

Appreciate it.

Philip Pape  1:03:53

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Ep 176: Heal Your Thyroid to Boost Your Metabolism (Even with Hashimoto's or Hyper/Hypothyroidism)

Do you know how your thyroid turbocharges your metabolism? What can throw your thyroid off balance, and how can you reclaim control? Are you ready to supercharge your thyroid with easy-to-adopt lifestyle shifts?

In this solo episode, Philip (@witsandweights) explores the intricate world of thyroid health and its impact on metabolism. He discusses the thyroid’s functions and the symptoms of hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism and then identifies the root causes and triggers of thyroid dysfunction, providing a comprehensive understanding of this critical gland.

Philip also shares practical, evidence-based strategies for supporting thyroid health, from lifestyle and nutrition adjustments to supplementation. Whether you’re battling hypothyroidism, Hashimoto’s, or hyperthyroidism, this episode will help move you in the direction of healing and optimizing your thyroid from the inside out.

It's important to remember that the information shared in this episode is for educational purposes only and should NOT be considered medical advice. If you suspect an underlying medical or hormonal issue, it's always best to consult your doctor or medical practitioner.

Tune in to discover how to boost your metabolism and get the body you deserve for your efforts. Don’t let your thyroid sabotage your health and fat-loss efforts any longer!

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:00 What is the thyroid and its functions
6:54 Symptoms of hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism
9:37 Identifying the root causes and triggers of thyroid dysfunction
11:36 Lifestyle and nutrition adjustments to support your thyroid
22:07 Supplements for thyroid support
25:56 Outro

Episode resources:

• Get your FREE Heal Your Thyroid guide

• Watch this FREE video on how to setup MacroFactor and try MacroFactor FREE with my code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Episode summary:

When it comes to maintaining overall health, few glands play as crucial a role as the thyroid. This small, butterfly-shaped gland nestled in the neck region is pivotal in regulating a host of metabolic processes in the body. Unfortunately, thyroid dysfunctions such as hypothyroidism, Hashimoto's disease, and hyperthyroidism are not uncommon, affecting millions globally. The symptoms of these conditions can range from fatigue and weight gain to mood swings and hormonal imbalances, particularly impacting women during peri- and postmenopause. The good news is that through targeted nutrition and lifestyle changes, individuals can effectively manage, and even improve, their thyroid function.

Nutrition holds the key to managing thyroid health. A diet rich in anti-inflammatory foods can alleviate the strain on the thyroid. Essential nutrients like iodine and selenium are the building blocks of thyroid hormones and must be included in the diet through foods like seafood, eggs, and nuts. Moreover, gut health is inextricably linked to thyroid function. A diverse diet with an array of fibrous foods and fermented products can support a healthy gut microbiome, which, in turn, supports thyroid health. In addition to diet, the importance of food sensitivities cannot be overstated. Identifying and eliminating foods that trigger negative responses can be instrumental in managing thyroid-related symptoms.

However, the journey to thyroid vitality extends beyond dietary choices. Lifestyle factors such as fasting, sleep, stress management, and balanced exercise regimens also exert a significant influence on thyroid function. While fasting can be a powerful tool for reshaping dietary habits and caloric intake, it must be personalized to avoid exacerbating thyroid issues. Chronic stress and sleep deprivation are particularly detrimental to thyroid health. They can disrupt the delicate balance of hormone production and should be mitigated through stress-reducing practices and prioritizing sleep.

In cases where lifestyle and diet adjustments may not be enough, supplementation under professional guidance can address specific nutrient deficiencies. Supplements should never be used as a catch-all solution but rather as a means to target particular areas of need as identified by health assessments. Remember, any significant changes to your health regimen should always be discussed with a healthcare provider.

To conclude, the podcast episode provides a comprehensive guide for those seeking to enhance their thyroid health through a holistic approach. By embracing a nutritious diet, mindful lifestyle choices, and when necessary, strategic supplementation, individuals can work towards a more energized and balanced life. With this expert knowledge and the actionable insights shared in the episode, listeners are well-equipped to empower their endocrine systems and unlock a new level of vitality.

🎓 Join Wits & Weights Physique University

👩‍💻 Schedule a FREE nutrition/training audit with Philip

👥 Join our Facebook community for support, live Q&As, & challenges

✉️ Join the FREE email list with insider strategies and bonus content!

📱 Try MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS. The only food logging app that adjusts to your metabolism!

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:00

Is your thyroid sabotaging your health and fat loss efforts? If you're dealing with stubborn pounds, relentless fatigue and brain fog that just won't quit. Your thyroid might be the hidden culprit. The good news is you have the power to take control of your thyroid health, and finally feel like yourself again. Today I'm giving you the ultimate evidence based blueprint to nourish your thyroid, balance your hormones and reclaim that vitality. Whether you're battling hypothyroidism, Hashimotos or hyperthyroidism. This episode will give you the tools you need to heal from the inside out and naturally heal and optimize your thyroid, boost your metabolism and get the body you deserve for your efforts. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry

Philip Pape  01:02

so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The Whitson weights podcast in our last episode 175. The big is beautiful movement, obesity and heart health with Dr. Tiffany DiPietro. We discuss some of the myths surrounding heart disease like the idea that it's only a man's disease, or you must have symptoms to have a problem. Tiffany shared her best practices for nutrition and exercise to maintain a healthy heart and effective ways to prevent cardiovascular issues. And we stepped into the minefield of the biggest beautiful movement by asking the question Can big also be healthy. Today for episode 176 Heal your thyroid to boost your metabolism. Even with Hashimotos or hyper or hypothyroidism. We'll discover and explore what your thyroid actually does break down the different types of thyroid dysfunction and dive into the root causes behind thyroid issues. And of course, I'll give you concrete evidence based strategies to support your thyroid through nutrition, lifestyle and targeted supplementation with the right approach, you can definitely get your thyroid functioning at its best, so you can get back to feeling like yourself again. But before we dive into the details, I want to remind you that this information is for educational purposes only and not medical advice. Always consult with your doctor or medical practitioner if you suspect there is an underlying medical or hormonal issue. Now most of this episode was delivered as a live training, where I took questions from the audience and integrated them into the episode, I decided to give away one of the bonuses that I gave to those who attended to thank you you as a podcast listener for following the show. And that bonus is a free heal your thyroid guide that you can download using the link in my show notes. Again, if you want to download your FREE heal your thyroid guide that goes with this episode, go to the episode resources in my show notes. All right, let's get into today's topic, kill your thyroid to boost your metabolism, even with Hashimotos or hyper hypothyroidism. All right, we are talking about healing your thyroid naturally because we know how important the thyroid is for your metabolism and many other things. We also know that many people women especially especially in Peri and post menopause tend to face more thyroid issues or dysfunctions or things that present themselves as thyroid issues. And I think it's really important to understand true dysfunction from symptoms and things that we could actually do something about. So in today's training, we're going to explore what your thyroid actually does, we're gonna break down the different types of thyroid dysfunction, dive into the root causes behind the thyroid issues. And then I'm gonna give you some concrete evidence based strategies to support your thyroid, through nutrition, lifestyle and targeted supplementation. So if you have the right approach, you can definitely get your thyroid functioning at its best and get back to feeling like yourself. Again, let's jump into it. Starting with what the thyroid is, okay, the thyroid gland is pretty small, but it's very critical to everything. It is a butterfly shaped gland in your neck that produces hormones that regulate metabolism, energy levels, body temperature, and some other functions. So when your thyroid is under functioning, it can then lead to lots of other frustrating symptoms that we're going to talk about in a bit. But things like fatigue, brain fog, what many of you are concerned about which is either weight gain or frustrating inability to lose weight and a lot more symptoms than that? And maybe you're struggling with some of these issues yourself or you're suspecting that your thyroid could be the culprit. And the reality is that the thyroid disorders are incredibly common, whether they are the root cause or they are caused by the lifestyle choices, especially things like hypothyroidism and Hashimotos, which is the auto immune In a form of hypothyroidism, but so many people go undiagnosed, so many people struggle to manage their symptoms, even with medication. I've worked with many a client who has had one of these conditions. And once we start to fix or change just a few key areas of their behaviors, their lifestyle, oftentimes they, the issues either get resolved, or they're able to significantly reduce any sort of treatment or medications for them. So that's what I want to do today, I want to power you with the information and action steps to optimize your thyroid health, whether it is a diagnosed condition, or you just want to give your thyroid some love. So what does the thyroid actually do? Well, it produces two hormones, you've probably heard of these T four, and T three, I'm going to try to pronounce them it's thyroxin. That's T four and T three is tri iodothyronine. So try to say that three times fast. T four is the inactive form has to be converted to T three, which is the active form to do its job. So you've probably heard of T four to T three, or Yeah, T four to T three conversion. So these hormones, think of them like the master controllers of your metabolism. They regulate how fast or slow your cells use energy. And then that affects all the other things downstream like your weight, your body temperature, your heart rate, your digestion, your mood, your brain function, that's why it can cause so many different symptoms. So when your thyroid is under functioning, right, we call that sluggish thyroid, we call it hypo thyroidism, the extreme autoimmune form of that being Hashimotos. Which by the way, I'm not going to get into too much into Hashimotos in detail, but typically Hashimotos from a from a medical standpoint means you have an inflamed, physically inflamed thyroid, but there can be a spectrum of symptoms and bloodwork and things that tell you that you have Hashimotos. So common symptoms of hypothyroidism. If you have a decent amount of the symptoms working together, right, or one or more of the symptoms, you may have an issue with your thyroid, but I don't want anybody to kind of freak out that any of these in and of themselves means you have a sluggish thyroid, but things like fatigue and sluggishness, brain fog, difficulty concentrating the big one weight gain or difficulty losing weight, you feel like even when you go into a diet or in a calorie deficit, the weight just stops going down eat despite cutting, cutting, cutting calories in tolerance to cold, dry skin and hair, hair loss, constipation, muscle aches, weakness, depressed mood, a whole bunch of things. And for those of you watching the video actually have a long list here. This is what I use, sometimes with clients just to see if symptomatically thyroid might be something to look at, which would then lead to other things like blood, blood and lab work. So those are the symptoms of hypothyroidism, hyperthyroidism, that's your overactive thyroid has a shorter list of symptoms, but still important. Anxiety, rapid heartbeat, weight loss, and diarrhea would be some of those most of what we're talking to today, generally is with Hypo thyroidism. And so when we talk about the dysfunction of the thyroid, and what causes it, the most common cause is Hashimotos. It's an autoimmune condition, where the immune system mistakenly attacks the thyroid gland, and then you get some inflammation as well. And over time, this can cause the thyroid to under function. Other potential causes are nutrient deficiencies, potentially low iodine, low selenium, we'll get into some of those specifically, certain medications. Of course, pregnancy and postpartum changes can cause temporary dysfunction in the thyroid, and then if you're getting treatment for hyperthyroidism, and it's it may be because of the dosage it can cause, you know, the opposite reaction to occur. So no matter what's causing it, what we want to focus on here, what I focus on with with clients all the time is, how can we give our thyroid some love in a natural way, so that we kind of take out all of the factors of lifestyle, and then whatever's left may lead you to go down other routes of investigation, working with a medical practitioner or functional medical practitioner or, or what have you. So the three are, number one, reducing inflammation and immune dysfunction. Number two is providing the raw materials to produce thyroid hormones. And then number three is supporting conversion of T four to active T three, and none of these are going to be complicated. The idea here is that the lifestyle changes we talk about will support these, you don't have to worry about necessarily getting super specific on any one of these per se. Let's break down the first one, which is identifying and addressing your personal root causes or triggers of dysfunction because this is very individualized. And everyone's different things that cause potential thyroid dysfunction or underperformance are different, but going down the list food sensitivities, so if you are in such a sensitive or intolerant to anything really, you know, gluten, dairy, soy, those tend to be the big culprits. But there are women who have thyroid dysfunction that can eat gluten just fine, right? So don't assume that these are quote unquote, inflammatory, it's really going to depend on your individual response, nutrient deficiencies, the Big Four iodine, selenium, zinc, and iron. But there are others on the list, such as vitamin D, that could come into play gut issues. And this is mainly with people who have made, they may not have a very diverse diet, they may not have much fiber, they may not have many plants in their diet, things like that. All the same things that lead to poor micro microbiome diversity in the first place, which everybody should be concerned about. Anyway, given how important the gut is. But again, I don't want to go down the controversial routes like leaky gut and stuff like that, we're just talking about supporting your digestive system in a healthy way. Chronic stress, of course, is a culprit behind lots of issues when we talk about health and fitness, environmental toxins, again, I'm not going to get into too much detail on that. But there's, there's plenty of evidence out there that certain exposure to things both in the food and the environment can definitely have an impact on your endocrine system and your hormones and your various glands. Certain medications, of course, again, I'm not going to get into details on those and then pregnancy and post partum changes to actually pinpoint root causes is very difficult, right. And so we focus on the activities that support your thyroid, if you want to go that next step, and you work with a coach, again, or a doctor or functional practitioner, those are different ways to get down to the root cause. All right, continuing on here. So now we get to the fun stuff. What do we what can we do about it? That's, that's what I'm here to talk about. What can we do with your nutrition and lifestyle to start, you know, supporting that thyroid, some of the most powerful dietary changes are going to be removing any food that's just not working for you. And the word inflammatory can get can get dicey. It can get dicey when we use language, I'm using it in the context of you eat it, and you have some sort of negative response in terms of biofeedback or thyroid function or your metabolic rate or something. And you know, from tracking, and looking at the before, and after that it has some negative effects that you don't like. And it might help you to exclude that food. We're not talking about restrictive dieting, we're talking about individualizing your diet, and still having everything else in there that you know you enjoy, and that supports you. So these could include gluten, dairy, soy sugar, whatever. My suggestion is, either eliminate one that you suspect to be the issue for a few weeks and track and document how you feel and your biofeedback and everything else. And and see if that indeed was a culprit. The other slightly more extreme approach is do an elimination diet, right? Cut out a whole list of things, which is very difficult, I will admit it's very difficult, it's not fun. And you do that for again, like a month or a few weeks, and then you start reintroducing one at a time to see if one thing just causes your symptoms to get worse. And again, we're talking about symptoms, all the symptoms we talked about earlier if symptoms go away, because you remove a food, that's a good sign.

Philip Pape  13:13

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wit's end weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls, and the supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape  14:34

The second thing is eating nutrient dense Whole Foods, right? We always talk about 8020 At least 80% of your foods are nutrient dense foods. But for thyroid specifically there are certain nutrients we want to just be aware of. And we can take two approaches here. One approach is you just have a very diverse diet full of animal and plant products or if you're not, you know if you're not an omnivore plant products but It's diverse. And by diverse I mean not just different types of foods, but oftentimes even multiple types of the same food, for example, multiple types of apples. So you get different pectin compounds and the different skins of the apple, you know, kind of eating like we would have naturally back in the day when you had a lot more diversity in your diet. So, if we specifically dial in on nutrients that come up with thyroid, the first one is Iodine, that would include things like dairy products and eggs. Also fish especially white fish, cod, tuna, haddock, things like that. And seaweed. So I recently spoke to somebody who who mentioned there's a like a powdered seaweed you can get, but of course there's different forms of seaweed you can purchase in the store but if for convenience, there is a powdered form you can like sprinkle on food, so kelp Nori, will kami things like that. Selenium, we're talking Brazil nuts. I mean, just a couple of Brazil nuts a day is probably sufficient. Seafood like shrimp sardines, salmon, you know, meat, beef, turkey, chicken has selenium and whole grains as well. Brown rice and oats have selenium. So there are a lot of foods that have selenium, zinc, oysters is the big one people talk about but I know a lot of people don't regularly consume oysters, but they are high in zinc, shellfish, like crab and lobster. Various types of meat have zinc, pumpkin seeds are high in zinc, and then legumes, like chickpeas, lentils and beans. You gotta get the theme here. Let's let's have diversity. Let's Let's eat a lot of different things, especially plants in there. And then iron, you got red meat, of course poultry and fish and a lot of iron, especially sardines and mackerel, spinach, legumes like lentils, and beans. Okay, so I just gave you a whole bunch of ideas for food. And by the way, I have the guide that you're gonna get for this. I believe I include all those food sources in there. But if not, I'm going to take a note to beef that up. Pun intended. Alright, number three, prioritizing your gut health. So I mentioned before having diverse sources of fiber, that's really where I want you to focus. Yeah, bone broth. And all these other things are nice, but I think having like fermented foods, a variety of fruits and vegetables, different types of the same, for example, not just yellow squash, but also zucchini, not just red delicious apples, but you know, Granny Smith, and all of whatever types there are, you know, go and have fun in the grocery store and find things you've never had before buy them and throw them in your food, really have a diverse source, have adequate amount of fiber, and that can go a long way toward helping with your gut health and digestion. All right, protein is a huge one for everyone. I mean, this would have this on every list. Basically, if you know you're building muscle, you're trying to support your hormones, you're trying to stabilize your blood sugar, you're trying to feel for whatever the reason improve your body composition. Protein tends to help in all those realms. And we're aiming for about point seven to one gram per pound of body weight, you know, the one gram per pound is on the high end, if you can at least get to that point seven years pretty good shape most of the time. So that's what I would aim for. And then finally, don't fear carbs, right? complex carbs are great, but but really any carbs, but complex carbs from whole foods like sweet potatoes, fruit, rice, they tend to support your hormones. I mean, there's some evidence that links these foods to T four to T three conversion. Again, I don't put too much stock into that because now we're trying to get so biohacking to that level. I think just including all of these things on a regular basis is a practical way to do this. I want to talk about intermittent fasting, because I know there's a lot of curiosity about it. There's a lot of controversy. The truth is, there's a mixed bag when it comes to intermittent fasting. There are experts who make claims like it reduces inflammation improves insulin sensitivity, stimulates cellular cleanup, and all of these could benefit the thyroid, but the evidence is mixed on whether you can actually tease out these results from intermittent fasting and prolong fasting can be a stressor, right? So we really have to make our choices when it comes to fasting work for us. Not necessarily because it's going to help the thyroid because it could backfire. And actually, you know, cause more issues than it helps. You know, fasting can disrupt things your HPA access your cortisol, all that those things, maybe right, and maybe interfere with the conversion of T four to T three. So I just would recommend avoiding aggressive fasting protocols if you have a thyroid condition and just eating in a way that works for you. And if you want to experiment with fasting, go right ahead. I'm a big fan of experimentation. Now, the reality of fasting is well I already mentioned as a stressor it could help with, you know, if you're in a fat loss phase and calories are tight or low. It can help you tighten that feeding window so it's more practical to get into calories with fewer meals. It could help with your lifestyle. If you have an schedule that lines up better that way. Just pay attention to your body signals right. Pay attention to fatigue due to cold sensitivity, hair loss, like any, any of the symptoms of thyroid that come into that either go up or down depending on what actions you're taking. And as always, you know, once you've, once you've done these things, and you still have symptoms, you can always go down the route of working with, with a doctor or medical practitioner. Yeah, so my basic, my basic thing with intermittent fasting is it depends depends on if works for you don't buy into the hype or the claims. There's always truth somewhere in the middle. All right, the next thing is lifestyle. Again, you're not going to be surprised, but a lot of the lifestyle factors are the same lifestyle factors that anybody would want to incorporate for a healthy lifestyle, you know, getting enough sleep managing your stress, regular exercise movement training, you know, high cortisol from chronic stress can wreak havoc across the board, including with t 43. Conversion with your thyroid, as it does help down regulate many hormones when you don't get enough sleep or you have too much stress. So aim for that seven or nine hours of sleep focused on high quality, know that a lack of sleep has been shown to cause additional storage in the belly, right? visceral fat storage has been shown to worsen body composition outcomes, meaning if you ate the same amount of calories, a group that was sleep deprived might gain more fat and lose some muscle relative to a group that has sufficient sleep. Safe, super powerful, stress, reducing stress with practices that work for you, whether it's breathing, meditation, yoga, being in nature, doing stuff you enjoy. And then for movement, of course, a mix of strength training and low intensity cardio, like walking tends to be ideal. Many of my clients who have had hormonal issues, they're just doing too much, they are doing too much cardio chronic cardio, right? It's excessive, and it was stressing your body out. So you've got a lot going on, you're in your life, most likely, when you're now trying to squeeze every ounce of time out for some form of exercise that can be a stressor. So lifting weights three, at least three days a week, and then walking a bunch is a decent mix. If you want to add more cardio in there just doing strategically, okay, supplements now this is the one I was very hesitant to, to get too much into on because there's a lot of snake oil out there. And, you know, my opinion, when it comes to supplements is you're just trying to fill in the gaps. I mean, other than performance supplements for like lifting, we're going to keep that off the table right now, for thyroid support, we're really just saying supporting your nutrients where you might have gaps, that you're not getting through food or what have you. And especially the ones that we know are associated with thyroid health. So selenium, these are things that you could supplement. And again, work with a practitioner because something like zinc, if you have too much zinc and not enough copper, there can be an imbalance there. There's all sorts of dependencies between different supplements. So I'm not recommending these, I'm just saying consider do your research, talk to a qualified professional and really figure out based on testing and based on you whether you need any of these right, vitamin D thymi, B 12. Magnesium, I recommend to most people anyway, because I think we're generally deficient. And it helps with things like sleep and a little bit with stress as well. And then Hashimotos there's this other there's something called Myo inositol, which is and I did some research into this, it does seem to reduce some of the antibodies associated with the thyroid condition, you know, the autoimmune condition, and stabilizes the TS TSH. So again, you have Hashimotos, I assume you're working with a practitioner on that anyway. So that's it for supplements, again, I would focus on getting it from food and then test for deficiencies and then potentially look into supplementation. So the bottom line here is it didn't take as long as I thought is nourishing your thyroid is as important as nourishing any of your other parts of your body when it comes to hormones. But it particularly affects could affect your weight, your energy, your mood, your brain, all of these things. And I think these are simple changes. And if there are any opportunities here, I would take the time, my suggestion is identify one opportunity on this list, and I'm gonna send you the guide and I'm gonna send you this replay so you can review it again, just one opportunity to improve your nutrition or your lifestyle from what I share today. Second thing is get bloodwork and other testing possibly through a functional medical practitioner, potentially a full thyroid panel, you know, TPO and TG antibodies, micronutrient testing, gi map, things like that, whatever you feel like you need to go to that next level. And then of course, the other option is join our Whitson weights physique university, you know, I would say this. It's a semi private group coaching program where you can get some support and accountability to work on some of these issues. Adding a VA right So Camille says adding a variety of fiber. Yeah, it's huge, right? Because we think of fiber as this one thing, but it's actually very diverse. You know, type of carbohydrate with different types. And then there's fermented and there's the different. There's lectins, and pectins. And all these compounds. There's a whole variety out there. I always want to plug macro factor for you guys. Because if you're not already tracking your food, and you want to track not only your macros and calories, but you want to track fiber and micronutrients, they have a way to do that in the app, it's more than a food blogger, right, it also tracks your metabolism. So it's a good way to see if your thyroid is responding as well. For example, if you're in a fat loss phase, and you now your metabolism is a bit more responsive, it doesn't, it doesn't tank as much as what I often see with individuals with thyroid conditions, it tends to adapt faster. You know, you can use that before and after to compare and see if what you're doing is working for you. I'm going to throw a video in the chat. It's a YouTube video you guys can take with you. That explains how to download and set it up. Alright, I hope you enjoyed that training about how to heal your thyroid naturally. And don't forget to download your FREE heal your thyroid guide using the link in my show notes or by going to Whitson weights.com/free That's Whitson weights.com/free or use the link in my show notes to download the detailed companion guide to this episode. No matter where you are on your thyroid journey. Remember, you have the power to take control of your health. Always advocate for yourself, educate yourself and never give up on feeling your best. Okay in our next episode 177 How anatomy impacts your gut muscle mass hormones and health with Justin Caudill. Justin shares how understanding our digestive systems anatomy can lead to better nutrient absorption and overall health and also how our bodies physically adapt to training. We explore the impacts of understanding your anatomy on your personal health and fitness. We get into a lot of interesting side areas things I know you haven't heard before, practical advice to go along with it to optimize your nutrition and training. So as always, please make sure to hit follow right now in your podcast app or subscribe here to the YouTube channel to get notified when that episode comes out and to support the show. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on The Whitson weights podcast.

Philip Pape  27:20

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Ep 175: The "Big Is Beautiful" Movement, Obesity, and Heart Health with Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro

Is big really beautiful? What's the connection between LDL and coronary disease? How can someone who looks healthy have high cholesterol? What's the key to optimal heart health?

In this episode, Philip's (@witsandweights) special guest is Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro, a triple board-certified cardiologist, internal medicine specialist, and nuclear cardiologist. Dr. Di Pietro discusses the "Big Is Beautiful" movement, obesity, and heart health. She also discusses various topics, including monitoring health markers, understanding LDL and saturated fats, mental health, high cholesterol, weight loss, and more. She also shares best practices for nutrition and exercise.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro graduated from Magna Cum Laude with a Bachelor of Science degree in Psychobiology at 19. She became the youngest graduate of the College of Osteopathic Medicine at Nova Southeastern University. Dr. Di Pietro is passionate about educating the public about health, nutrition, and disease prevention. Her approach to healthcare is infectious positivity, and the rule she lives by is: BE NICE.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 Intro
3:03 Debunking heart disease myths and the importance of preventative measures
6:07 What health markers should be monitored
7:32 The importance of understanding LDL in preventing coronary disease
12:36 Threshold for saturated fats, and measuring inflammatory markers
17:57 The significance of calcium scores and fiber
21:56 Resistance training for heart health, especially for women
23:41 How much walking affects cardiovascular health
26:37 The impact of mental health on cardiovascular well-being
29:01 Typical causes of high cholesterol in people who appear to be healthy
30:26 Is big beautiful and/or healthy?
36:06 Advice for someone struggling to lose weight
41:54 Dr. Di Pietro’s "be nice" philosophy
44:18 Does genetically elevated LDL in perimenopause predispose you to higher cardiovascular risk?
45:41 Testosterone and cardiovascular health concerns
49:52 What question did Dr. Di Pietro wish Philip had asked
54:29 Where to find Dr. Di Pietro
55:01 Outro

Episode resources:

• Dr. Di Pietro's IG:  @drtiffanydipietro and @dipietrohealth/ 

• Website: DiPietroHealth.com 

Episode summary:

In a world where health is often taken for granted, it's critical to turn our attention to one of the most vital organs in our body—the heart. The latest podcast episode with Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro, a triple board-certified cardiologist, opens the door to a deeper understanding of heart health. Dr. Di Pietro's expertise shines as she debunks common myths about heart disease and shares life-saving strategies.

One of the most sobering realities brought to light in the episode is that heart disease is an indiscriminate killer, claiming the lives of women more than any other disease. This underscores a crucial message: everyone needs to be aware of their cardiovascular risk factors, which include cholesterol levels, blood pressure, and blood sugar. Dr. Di Pietro's emphasis on a preventative approach to healthcare is not just a recommendation—it's a potential lifesaver.

As the episode progresses, the conversation moves beyond the basics of heart disease, addressing complex topics like the Big is Beautiful movement and the intricate relationship between dietary fats and heart health. Dr. Di Pietro navigates these topics with finesse, making a strong case for balance in our diet and lifestyle. She stresses the importance of understanding that a combination of medication and lifestyle adjustments can create a shield against cardiovascular diseases.

Another key element of the discussion is the transformative power of exercise. Dr. Di Pietro doesn't just promote any physical activity; she advocates for resistance training and high-intensity workouts that not only bolster physical health but also contribute to a happier, stronger mind. This holistic view of health does not end with the physical; it also encompasses the undeniable connection between mental well-being and physical health.

Addressing the challenges of weight loss, Dr. Di Pietro reminds us that personal accountability plays a vital role. She highlights the importance of finding a supportive doctor-patient relationship and navigating the financial aspects of investing in one's health. This point is crucial, as the right medical guidance can be the difference between managing a condition and allowing it to spiral out of control.

Towards the end of the episode, the focus shifts to healthcare spending and the significance of patient communication. Dr. Di Pietro stresses the importance of clear and honest dialogue between doctors and patients. She also shares insights on overcoming bad days and the benefits of personalized fitness regimes. These are more than just words; they are part of a philosophy that places happiness and health at the forefront of a fulfilling life.

In summary, the episode with Dr. Di Pietro is not just informative; it's a clarion call to prioritize heart health. By unveiling the truths about cardiac wellness and providing actionable strategies, this episode serves as a valuable resource for anyone seeking to improve their heart health and overall well-being. With Dr. Di Pietro's compassionate guidance, listeners are empowered to make informed decisions about their health and to take meaningful steps toward a healthier future.

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Transcript

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  00:00

People gain weight. They go through divorces, you know, a child dies something catastrophic happens. We're human things happen to us weight fluctuates, stress fluctuates, life fluctuates, but it's about kind of getting back on track and loving yourself enough to want to be around to want to live a long life to be around for your children to be around for your family.

Philip Pape  00:21

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of the weights and weights Podcast. Today I've got a very special guest joining me. Dr. Tiffany DPAA. tro is a triple board certified cardiologist, internal medicine specialist and nuclear cardiologist who's on a mission to help people achieve their goals through preventative measures. And when I came across Tiffany's work through a member of our community who recommended her from another podcast, I was immediately impressed by her passion for educating the public about health and nutrition and disease prevention. This is a woman who graduated magna cum laude with a Bachelor of Science in psycho biology at just 19 then went on to become the youngest graduate from the College of Osteopathic Medicine at Nova Southeastern University down in my home state of Florida. You know how I'm drawn to overachievers. But what really drew me to Dr. DE Petro was her focus on prevention. When it comes to cardiovascular disease in particular, she also tells it straight and I know she's going to do that today, we're going to dive into some of the myths surrounding heart disease, like the idea that it's only a man's disease, or you have to have symptoms to have a problem. Tiffany is going to share her best practices for nutrition and movement to maintain a healthy heart and effective ways to prevent cardiovascular issues. And then later on the episode, we're going to step into the minefield of the biggest beautiful movement and ask the question can be also be healthy. As an assistant clinical professor at three medical schools, a medical adviser and a law firm, a regular medical expert on national media outlets, and so much more. Dr. DT, Pietro has tons of experience and expertise to share with us. And I think you're going to love Tiffany's approach to health care, which I'll be honest, we don't always hear this from doctors on the preventative side. So she believes that helping people understand complex medical issues is the key to promoting better health outcomes. And she has a lot of positivity to go with it. And it's just what we need these days for anyone looking to improve their cardiovascular health and well being. And I think you'll love the rule that she lives by, which is simply be nice, Tiffany, thanks for joining me on the show today.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  02:45

What a nice welcome. Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape  02:47

Absolutely. I know my listeners are gonna love to hear all about this, because we talk about heart disease, sometimes as just a man's disease, and not realizing it's really the number one cause of death for women as well, obviously, and there are a lot of other, you know, scary statistics we can get into here. I do want to understand from you, you know, why is it a concern just in general for the population? And then what the risk factors are individuals have to think about before we get into, okay, how do we deal with that? Sure.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  03:14

So, you know, as you said, heart disease is the number one killer of women also in this country. And I feel like I say that on repeat. And yet I still feel like people don't know it. So it's a little frustrating. You know, I think the society's for breast imaging and mammograms, they do a great job in October, where everything's Pink, pink, pink, and everyone remembers to get their mammograms. But at the end of the day, more women die of heart disease and all forms of cancer combined. So, you know, I tell my female patients, it's great that you know, when your last mammogram wasn't, it's great that you know that you're due for one, but I mean, you really should just know your cholesterol and know your blood sugar and know what your blood pressure is and what those numbers should be. And really kind of ask your doctor, what do I need to be worried about? What should I be focused on? What are these numbers? And what should they be? As a little statistic since 1984, which is before I was born, believe it or not, more women have died of heart disease than men in this country. And that's a staggering statistic. Forget just that, you know, that's number one killer. I mean, more women actually die than men have heart disease. And I think that's partially education. And I think that's partially like we still especially physicians, honestly still don't think that when a woman coming in with chest pain or palpitations, you know, it's kind of chalked up to being anxiety or something else. And there's a big lacking in medicine, amongst even physicians kind of taking women seriously.

Philip Pape  04:38

Yeah, I understand what you mean. Because just in my own family's history, you know, primarily think of, you know, my grandfather died of heart attack and heart disease on on men side, and I wonder where the stigma comes from. I'm curious if you know where that history comes from. I mean, there's a lot of stigma when it comes to women's health and a lot of areas that we're now trying to correct. But I'm just curious about that.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  04:59

I don't I'm You know, the reason I became a cardiologist is truthfully, I just I found that it was a niche that really I can make some difference. And I know it sounds corny and cheesy, but it's just the truth. And you see a lot more female cardiologist starting to graduate and come out as well. But it's still definitely even an underrepresented field amongst female cardiologists. If you go to the cardiology conventions, it's like, you know, 75 80% men and 20% women. So I think as more females graduate, as cardiologists we'll kind of see the stigma, hopefully start to dissipate some. But yeah, I don't know. I wish I knew the answer to that. But

Philip Pape  05:35

okay, yeah, no worries, well, let's we can dive into the practical stuff and try to understand it here, as well as what people can do about it. But you mentioned bloodwork, I think, you know, if anybody goes to like the CDC website, or just Google, or even just from experience, we all have heard the main types of things to measure, right? blood pressure, cholesterol, things like your weight and your activity come into play alcohol and things like that. What would you say, are the top two or three things that everybody should be measuring on a regular basis, as opposed to say over testing certain things? And just getting freaked out? What are the things they really should be measured? And then where does the distinction for women particularly come in with some of those measurements?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  06:12

Yep. So luckily, that's a very easy question. So blood pressure, for sure. The problem with blood pressure Well, amongst other cardiovascular issues, but the problem with blood pressure is we call it the silent killer for a reason, you can have very high blood pressure and have zero symptoms. And so that's probably truthfully number one, followed by blood sugar and cholesterol levels, in particular, the LDL, I tell my patients think of L for lousy, that's the bad cholesterol, that number, the pendulum has really started to swing. So Europe is always ahead of the United States in medicine. And their guidelines are usually three to four years ahead of ours. So I tend to look at European guidelines a lot, because I know what's going to come downstream for the United States. But when I was in training, and in medical school, the goal LDL was less than 130. Now it's less than 100. And if you have diabetes, or have a history of a heart attack, it's less than 70. So what we've really started to see in medicine over the past really decade is that the lower the cholesterol, it's almost a one to one correlation in terms of lowering your risk of heart disease. So by far easy stuff, this is like bread and butter hasn't changed in many years, except for maybe the cut offs is blood pressure, blood sugar, and cholesterol numbers.

Philip Pape  07:26

Okay, and I want to jump into my first of the controversies that are out there. And that is, I currently eat a flexible diet as to you know, we're proponents of, you know, eating what works for you tracking, you know, working out all of this stuff, and not being too rigid with any particular food you don't We don't cut out foods or anything like that. However, there are some camps out there in the fitness industry with food when it comes to cardiovascular disease and saturated fats, for example, or even the measurement of LDL cholesterol, you know, not believing that it's as serious, can you address some of those misconceptions of why understanding LDL and having an under certain number is important for everybody, and what the links are any evidence with that and cardiovascular disease, that's one piece of it, the other we can get into like low carb and all that later.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  08:12

You know, there's more links in research with this, and probably pretty much anything else in cardiology, I mean, I could pull article after article after article. And again, to my point earlier, that's why we now know that the lower that number, the less the risk of heart disease. Now, I think what's important is people take things to the extremes. And you could have a very low LDL and still have a heart attack, or you could have a very high LDL and have no coronary disease. So a big part of it is the number. But what comes into that also is someone's genetics and what they're genetically at risk for. So you can have a very kind of normal ish LDL, let's say it's maybe 110 115, it's close to being normal. But that LDL might be very sticky, or what we call atherogenic, LDL. And if you have a very atherogenic LDL, it really doesn't matter how low it is, you're higher risk than someone that does not have an atherogenic LDL. And that's where some of these more advanced lipid panels come into play. In terms of diet, I am a big fan of pretty much everything in moderation is okay. That's always been what I stand by. Obviously, if I have a very uncontrolled diabetic, it's, you know what, well, let me let me back up. What I realize is when you tell people a little bit, it's not never really a little bit, it's more than, you know, maybe a little less than what they were doing. And when you say no, then they'll still do a little bit. So, for instance, my diabetic patients, I'll say Listen, no refined sugar, no, this know that knowing that they're going to have a little bit. But you know, I think you'd be hard pressed to say, well, you know, if I have an egg or two, you know, twice a week that something catastrophic is going to happen to me. And a lot of times, that's where their medications come into play, too. And I think my biggest frustration with the world right now is thinking that everyone's doing something for some fun pharmaceutical company to make money. You know, it's frustrating. I have never made $1 off of any pharmaceutical company. But yet some on the internet says that we do. I don't know where they're getting this information, but I'd like to know where my money is, if that's the case, for sure

Philip Pape  10:13

you gotta get I've never made a dime, get those royalty checks. Yeah, yeah, it's, you know,

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  10:18

I'm sure there's some margin of truth to someone somewhere, some CEO of some business, but when it boils down to it, you know, our your regular hometown, good cardiologists look at data, we analyze that data independently, and we come up with the right decisions for our patients, and you'd be very hard pressed to find a cardiologist that's not, you know, doesn't want to be famous for being different. Let me put it that way. That would say that cholesterol medications are going to harm you. I mean, there's just too many studies saying that they're not going to do I want to put patients on medications? No, but do I have to sometimes because it's the right thing for them, and I want them to live a long healthy life. Yes. So you know, it's a conversation that you have to have with the patients. And my most common quote in my office is you can take one medication now, or you can take for for the rest of your life, after you have your heart attack, it's your pick,

Philip Pape  11:12

I totally relate. And I'm not going to criticize that either. And I've seen in my own family where someone my own father included, has gone on medications, but then change his lifestyle was able to maybe come back off some of them, maybe not all of them. And at the end of the day, we want to have give ourselves the best shot I think while also not being stupid, just not I hate to say it that way, but not just, you know, following the, the extreme kind of influencer, you know, mentality here, like you said, against maybe against the medical profession. Well,

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  11:41

it's also about what's maintainable as well. So when I talk to patients about diet and exercise, you know, if I say, you know, you should eat a diet full of X, Y, and Z, and they hate all of those foods, well, that's just not going to work. It's not feasible for that person. And so, you know, every decision that is made should be a very educated decision between the patient and the doctor in there, yes, very personalized between the patient and the doctor, and what's going to be best for them. But to say that we don't have so many tools in our armamentarium to help people not die of heart disease. I mean, 90 90% of heart disease is preventable 90. Yeah, that's a staggering number. And we have so many things to help us prevent it, but yet, we get so much pushback. You know, look at our life expectancy, we live a lot longer than we ever did before. That's not because we're miraculously more healthy. No, we're fatter. We're fatter than we've ever been in this country, yet. We're living longer. That's because of medicine. Yeah, so Okay. Fair

Philip Pape  12:37

point. Now, the people listening to this show may be in a little bit of a different tier of the prevention side, where they are, you know, trying to be preventative with their lifestyle, they are willing to, you know, eat more whole nutrient dense foods, you know, they don't want to cut everything out because they understand flexibility. And sustainability is important. But they want to know, for example, dietary fats, it's confusing. There's, you know, mono unsaturated poly, and they're saturated, we've heard that there may be as a threshold for saturated fat associated with cardiovascular disease. And so two points there, I would love to hear you help clarify is, is there a reasonable, say limit to saturated fat in particular, that we should be cognizant of? And is any of the research confounded in the populations with that level? In other words, if you have an overall healthy lifestyle, with everything else, is that saturated fat limit as important? Probably

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  13:25

not. Again, I think it's very difficult. Well, it's very difficult to give a global answer on that, because it really is so personalized each person, I think, probably from my experience in my research, I mean, obviously saturated fats, there is a link between saturated fats and cardiovascular disease, I don't think No is the answer, I think, you know, really watching and being cognizant of it is probably the answer. More importantly, is the effect on those saturated fats to inflammation in the body. And so the more research we do, the more we find out that it's yes, it's cholesterol, and yes, it's saturated fats. But really, it's what's causing this inflammatory response in the human body, which is then leading to the cancer and the heart disease and the heart attacks in addition to that, and so really, it boils down to for most trying to avoid things that come out of animals, especially very big animals, because there's a pretty good link between that and systemic inflammation. So you know, we like things that grow out of the ground first, and then we like things with no legs in the ocean, and then things with little teeny tiny legs on the ocean floor, and then we kind of work our way up to where I would never tell someone ever that they can never have a steak or a hamburger or hotdog, which should it be definitely, but should it be the the mainstay of their diet. Do I want someone eating? You know, something that came out of a cow every day? No, because I can almost guarantee you their inflammatory Mark. because you're going to be elevated. And

Philip Pape  15:02

is that measurable through any sort of like autoimmune type panels or I'm just curious when it comes to inflammation, it's kind of a confusing topic for a lot of people, because people will talk about inflammatory foods or, and they'll kind of overlap it with things like insulin resistance and sensitivity and a whole bunch of other things that get confusing. Is there a way to measure that are very

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  15:21

different stuff? Yeah, so we use something called a high sensitivity CRP or CRP, there's CRP. And there's a high sensitivity CRP, in particular, in cardiology, we use a test called a high sensitivity, CRP. And that gives us an idea of if there's any inflammation going on inside of the arteries, generally in your body, but more particularly the arteries of the heart. And that's what cardiologists really care the most about is really that inflammatory response you could have. So people kind of that are listening, understand, like I said, you could have a very high cholesterol, you could have all of these problems, but it's usually an inflammatory event, some sort of inflammatory response that causes disruption of the arterial wall and the plaque that then causes the heart attack. It's an inflammatory response. And so you know, my take home for my patients is listen, I'm really never going to say you can't ever have anything. But if you, you know, if you love fish, I'd rather you have more fish than steak. And if you love steak, I'd rather you have the filet not the New York Strip, like there's ways of manipulating it some. But yeah, I'm not, I'm not a no go type of physician. I just don't think it's maintainable. And at the end of the day, I just want people to maintain health, I don't want them to be super healthy for five years, and then fall off the wagon. That doesn't that's not success in my book.

Philip Pape  16:37

I totally agree. I mean, there's small changes that if anybody made them would be a big step change, right? It's kind of the 8020 because I believe something like most Americans consume, like 70% Ultra processed foods or something, if you just flip that around, that's a huge improvement, huge, you know, huge.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  16:52

I even say, you know, if someone could have, like three vegan meals a week, and then we manipulate that to just one a day, you know, think about like a lunch with just like salad and like a balsamic vinegar and lots of vegetables, like, I could never be vegan. So it's very hard for me to tell my patients to but I know I could do one meal a day vegan, I know, I can do that. I could eat oatmeal that's made with water, almond milk. And there's ways of doing this. And I think taking those little, it's like parking far away and walking instead of parking, you know, at the closest spot, taking those little steps, is really what makes the biggest difference long term. Yeah,

Philip Pape  17:29

I hear you. And same thing. I'm an omnivore. And I'll have occasionally a non meat based dish here and there. I don't know if I've gone a whole day without me. But that's just me. And at the end of the day, like I know, when I work with my, like nutrition clients, if we look at something like saturated fat, and it's way up there, then you know, there's some shifts that could be beneficial in what you're saying, you know, incorporating more plants or seafood and things like that will just naturally get you away from that. And so there's different ways to kind of look at it. You mentioned arteries. So that brings to mind the calcium score. Do you recommend that the calcium like that heart X ray, or no? Oh, no, it's just a controversy.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  18:05

It's a big concert. So anyone who's probably cracking up right now, I absolutely despise calcium scores. Okay, let me maybe refrain that, you know, rephrase that a little bit. I despise calcium scores on anyone under the age of 60. The older you get, the more reasonable and sensitive and specific a calcium score becomes. Here's the science behind it. A calcium score measures calcium, okay, calcium in or around the arteries of the heart, it does not look at nor can it measure any cholesterol rich plaque, which has not calcified yet. That process of calcification takes time, it does not happen overnight. So if you do a calcium score on a 45 year old, and the score is zero, then what happens with the pavement and let's say their cholesterol is high, and this is my problem with it. I get a patient that comes in doc, and this happens once a week. Doc, my cholesterol is high, my primary wants to put me on a statin, I don't want to be on it, I want you to order a calcium score. No, because what's going to happen is I'm going to order that calcium score on a 45 year old and it's probably going to be zero, because calcium has not had time to form yet. And then what happens is that patient who might actually have cholesterol buildup in those arteries now definitely is not going to take medication because now you've just told them what they want to hear. Now you fast forward 10 years and that person's had a heart attack when the medication probably would have prevented it had they taken it prior. So older patients it's an okay test and I don't Super Fight on someone that's kind of 60 and older, questionable mid 50s. Maybe I start negotiating never before mid 50s good to know because you're just going to miss a substantial amount of cholesterol plaque that is not calcified yet and give people this false sense of security that everything's okay. I have horror stories of patients that have normal calcium score. And I've had heart attacks and open heart surgery and you name it, that it's bad. I mean, I lecture doctors on this, usually about once a year. And inevitably, all of them come up to me, there's like a line out the door afterwards like, Oh, my God, I've been doing this wrong all along, you have to understand how this works. So, you know, it's a cheap test, but it only risk stratifies. It's kind of like giving you half assed information. If I'm going to order something, I want to know everything. I

Philip Pape  20:26

get it, because it'd be one thing I guess, if you said if the score was negative, that's the only time we're going to act on it. But like, you know, humans don't work that way. Because the zero comes back and you rely on that. So

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  20:37

you know, in a 45 year old, the only positive meaning of a calcium score is when it's not zero, because then you got a real problem. Yeah, I have and you already have patients

Philip Pape  20:45

started early. And it took that long. Yeah, right. I'm glad I asked. Because I have heard that I was asked to take one years ago when my cholesterol dipped up just a tad. And it came down later. And it was like, what was the point? But ya know, I've heard people get recommended that so now that listeners was more informed, and that's why I asked it. Okay, so I think we talked about a little bit about nutrition. I don't know if fiber is another one that comes to mind. I mean, for years and years, I grew up in the 80s. And it was like, fiber rich cereal, you know, hard, healthy and all that. Cheerios. Right, I think they still have it on there. Tell us more about the link there. Yeah,

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  21:15

fiber, from a cardiovascular standpoint helps to increase the HDL a little bit, which is the good cholesterol, and decrease triglycerides a little bit, which is another type of cholesterol particle. I think more important for fibers really colon health, if anything, you know, it keeps your poop nice and soft, and you get to have nice bowel movements. And there's a pretty good correlation between high fiber diets and less incidence of colon cancer, just like there's incidents of high animal protein like high red meat diets and a higher incidence of colon cancer. Yeah. So I think that's probably more the correlation now, less so for heart disease, and probably more for colon health.

Philip Pape  21:50

Okay, yeah. And that's a good reason to your fiber anyway, your gut health and your digestion and all that. Let's talk about exercise a little bit here. We're big into muscle building muscle strength training on this show. I can't shut up about it. I have tons of guests on all the time to talk about the importance of muscle, almost more important than weight loss for a lot of people in our population, just because they're not dealing with like, significant obesity. But let's talk about the big picture like cardio when you are when you think of heart you think cardio, and then you think cardio is a form of exercise. And there's a strong at least mental lick, link and semantic link. What are your thoughts on overall training regimen for somebody who does have a healthy lifestyle and wants to have the best shot?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  22:30

I think it's both. You know, personally, I'm not a huge cardio person, because my weight training really is cardio. It's kind of both, because my heart rate is high. I hear you and yeah, and I honestly I tell my patients I'm like if you do high intensity interval training, and you incorporate some weights into that, you don't need to do both, like you're probably crossing the T's and dotting the eyes, but resistance training. There's been some studies that show 15% decrease in mortality, for resistance training and 17% decrease cardiovascular mortality. So there's their strong data on resistance training, and overall health and and heart health, for sure. And then I think more importantly, especially for your women listening, big decrease in osteoporosis, big, really big, like, you don't want to take an extra pill every day you go lift some weights, because that's what's gonna keep you from having brittle bones and ending up on medications like next bisphosphonates that we have to give women and men but mostly women when they are postmenopausal and have us and have osteopenia or osteoporosis. Yeah,

Philip Pape  23:28

love it. Okay, yeah, yeah, no, so that's huge. So 17% Decrease in cardiovascular mortality from resistance training. And obviously, osteoporosis, osteopenia. huge benefit for way too. Okay. So obviously, there's no shocking revelation there. You alluded to the fact that if you're training and maybe doing a little bit of cardio in some form or another, you're good. What about walking?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  23:49

I like walking, I think, you know, it's like, what kind of walking are we doing now? Are we taking a leisurely stroll around the block are we like, really walking? For me, I don't buy this whole, like 10,000 steps a day, you know, I want I would rather someone walked in sit around all day long. Obviously, that makes me happy. But I don't consider that exercise. For me that heart rate has to get up you've got to get your heart rate up for to be considered exercise you want your heart to have to work moving all day long. hitting those 10,000 steps, you know, will help keep some weight off, you're obviously burning energy, you're utilizing your metabolism, so on and so forth. But for to really be considered exercise in my book, The heart rates gotta go up. Like if you can carry on a conversation like this, what I tell my patients if you can carry on a conversation like you and I is not exercise.

Philip Pape  24:31

So you mentioned walking, which is interesting, because that wasn't precisely my question. And I'm not criticizing your answer at all. But what's interesting is I recently did an episode called, actually just came out. Today, I think we're yesterday. Who cares if walking is exercise was the name of the episode. And it was a response to this clip that went viral with Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, where she said like, well, I don't consider walking exercise. And it's interesting you say that because I agree like walking maybe has other benefits. If it's not done at this intense level, we often classified as non exercise activity, right? You know, so it matches there. So what you're saying is that from a heart health perspective, weightlifting is number one, some form of cardio that gets a heart rate is up number two, that's a pretty good metric. And then walking beyond that may have other benefits for just like, calorie burn, metabolic rate, you know, whatever. Is there any other Okay, so I guess there's no other like health benefit that we wanted to focus on from low grade walking, then

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  25:29

not other than just the obvious kind of benefits of just getting, you know, moving moving your body, which is what I tell people half the time, just move just get up and move don't sit around all day long. Yeah,

Philip Pape  25:40

exactly. Because then you're not not moving, which has its own negative association.

25:46

Hi, my name is Alan. And I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Whitson weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly, and with dedication, to provide coaching support, and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research, and Philip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition, Philip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, PhilPapers, the real deal, he knows how to assess and direct nutrition, and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape  26:37

So speaking of lifestyle, then outside of training and nutrition, we've got, you know, I know stress and depression are like on the CDC list of risk factors, sleep, probably the whole mental side of it, social connection, and all of that come into play, mainly because of stress. What are your thoughts on that, so it doesn't get too muddied for folks listening. But I

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  26:57

think it's a big problem. You know, if you just look generally at mental health as a whole, most people that have what we would call, like low quality mental health are more of our physically unhealthy people as well. And so we start to wonder Which came first, the chicken or the egg, because you know, patients that have higher, maybe consider themselves healthier, I should say, healthier, happier, excuse me, happier people, they tend to be thinner, they tend to go out with their friends more, have better social interactions, maybe go to the gym with other people. So I think there's a big, big, big connection. You know, people that have positive outlooks tend to have lower blood pressure, lower heart rates. And there's been a few studies as well on stress, and patients that think that they have a lot of stress or define themselves as having a very stressful life, have higher inflammatory markers also, and higher incidence of high blood pressure, high cholesterol. So there's a big, big, big Interplay amongst that. Okay,

Philip Pape  27:55

so and I liked that you made the link like chicken and egg, because people always wonder, and I definitely talked about this, too, the mental health is often improved. When you go for a walk, when you work out, you hang out with your friends, right, like you said, even just maintaining a healthy body composition and bodyweight. So that leads to like, the question, is there one thing that underlies all of this? And is it really just maintaining a healthy weight in body composition? And really everything else? As a corollary of that, is that a stretch? Or is that? You know, reasonable?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  28:23

I think it's generally reasonable. You know, again, you know, if we're just looking statistically, yes, that's probably a reasonable statement to make. I mean, obviously, I have been people in my office that are not very healthy. And I've had heart attacks. But, you know, I think that's a pretty, it's a pretty easy conclusion to make. Yeah, you know, because a lot of people say, Oh, well, I'm happy because I have this, and I have that, and I have an expensive car. But these are very, my patients that have very high stress jobs, and they're really not that healthy, they just appear to be happy from the outside, and you really, as their physician, I can tell you, that's not always the case at all. So

Philip Pape  29:01

when somebody is in your office that visually appears what somebody would say is thin or, quote unquote, healthy visually, and they have high cholesterol, what's typically the cause there are what are like the top two or three causes.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  29:14

Number one is genetics. You can't escape your genetics, you cannot escape your genetics, patients, people listening, everybody must know. And if they don't know they should dig around until they find out what you know, people have died from or what diseases they had in their family because you cannot escape that. So I think that's unequivocally number one. Number two is remember, there's such a thing as skinny fat, right? You could be skinny and have high cholesterol if you're not eating the right foods to your point earlier. So you could sit around and have Cheetos all day long and not consume a lot of calories and be thin but you're consuming awful foods with lots of fat and no whole grains and no Whole Foods. So that's a real thing. So

Philip Pape  29:59

yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that yeah, skinny fat. You're right, because that's that's why I say body composition specifically. You know, we often talk about fat loss versus weight loss, because there is a heavy emphasis on weight loss, but not at all costs, right? Not if you're losing your muscle mass, your bone density decreases. And then like you said, it could even lead to hidden or stealth things happening with your health, like cardiovascular disease just because you look skinny. So it's important for people to know, the spectrum, which then leads me into this whole the obesity paradox, right? Can big be beautiful and healthy? I know you wanted to get into that. Let's talk about that. Right? I guess we can talk about the movement in the body positivity thing. I don't need to get too much into the political stuff, but we can get into reality and what is healthy and what's not, and how we should be approaching the subject. Yeah, you

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  30:45

know, I think people don't want to talk about it, because you don't want to get hate mail and get hated. And, and you know, and I understand that I do, but you know, you will never come into my office, overweight, number one obese for sure. And have me not telling you that you need to lose weight, it's just, it's just not going to happen. Like go find another doctor, my job is to make sure I do everything in my power to get my patients to be healthy and live long, fulfilling good lives with a good quality of life, right? That's my goal. That is not going to happen. If you're obese, it's not, it's just not going to happen. So, you know, having someone like the way they look feel comfortable in their skin is very different than you coming to a doctor's office and you being obese and me telling you that you're healthy. And it's a real thing, because what happens, we get laughs on some of these people. And you know that we go off on a healthy fat guy. And it's like, maybe for now, but that's not gonna stay like that forever. And so my line that I tell my patients that I probably, so I preface I said, Listen, I'm going to tell you something, and you're not going to like what I'm going to tell you and you're probably going to leave here really pissed off at me. And then you're going to come back and you're going to be thinking, man, you know, I kind of a team up, I get them ready. And I look at them. And I say you tell me the last time you saw a fat 80 year old, and they kind of sit back. And I'm like, go ahead, tell me, right? Because every once a while someone says, but statistically you don't. And they say, Well, I don't. I don't know if that 80 year old. And they go tell me why I make them say it. Tell me why they go because they're dead. Exactly. Because you do not live long lives in this country or around the world period. If you're heavy, especially if you're obese, and it's like a one to one, the heavier you are, the more likely you are to die early. It's clear cut their cut. And there's something to be said truthfully, about being too big, even muscularly. Right. Let's still wait. So would I rather someone be very muscular than very fat? Having adipose tissue? But there are a lot of like, Mr. Universe, Mr. This Mr. That and all these people that are they walk around like their arms can't even touch their sides, right? They walk around like this. Also not good. Weight is weight. So we we want to be like long and lean and have good skeletal muscle mass with very little as much as we can of adipose tissue. But it's just not good.

Philip Pape  33:09

Yeah. First, you just triggered all the lifters who are like, are you to tell me not to have all that muscle? No, but it's true. I mean, most people aren't going to be I think that big anyway, the short of performance enhancing drugs, but you know, I do know a lot of lifters in their, in their 50s who have a lot of muscle in there. It's they're bigger. And you're right, like the metabolic markers tend to drift in the direction we don't want them to. But it's partly body fat today. To get that level of muscle, you tend to be gaining fat in the process unless you lean out. So the thing you said about 80 year olds, I mean, it's so true. I've maybe seen large 70 Something year olds and they're all just they've got 20 different ailments, and they're like on death's door. And that's not a place we want to be.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  33:47

And number one complaint Are you ready for this? Number one complaint is? Well, two. Number one is my knees hurt. No shit. Wait, he's hurt. Yeah, you're carrying around an 80 pound backpack all day long. And that's what I tell them. I said, How do you think I would feel they put on an 80 pound backpack and walked around all day long. My knees are gonna hurt. My hips are gonna hurt and I'm gonna be freaking exhausted at the end of the day. So don't come here and telling me that it's not your weight that's causing it because it is your weight that's causing it. Yeah,

Philip Pape  34:10

no. 100% Yeah, and the whole thing the biggest beautiful big is healthy that I mean, yeah, we I guess we can separate the subjective side people can say whatever they want about, you know, attractiveness. But as far as loving your body and all of that, right, we have that whole body positivity movie elite movement, at least the way I put it is if you love your body, you're gonna care to get it into a healthy state. And there's nothing wrong with being big now and having the desire to not be there's nothing wrong with that and you can still love yourself and go through that process. Well, yeah.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  34:40

Yeah. Because you have to love the process. Right? You have to you have to love wanting to be around. I was reading a book this week, just about optimism and life. And then a friend of mine posted something and it all kind of came to kind of coalesce together. This is sometimes you have to do things today. Not because of yourself today, but because of who you want to look back Back on tomorrow and say I wish I would have done it right. So you're doing stuff for your future self, you're not doing it for yourself today. And that's a very good way of looking at everything, you know, just because someone's heavy. Now listen, shit happens. People gain weight, they go through divorces, you know, a child dies, something catastrophic happens, we're human things happen to us weight fluctuates, stress fluctuates, life fluctuates. But it's about kind of getting back on track and loving yourself enough to want to be around to want to live a long life to be around for your children to be around for your family. And I think that's kind of the most important take home point. I don't harp on people for being big. I harp on people for not wanting to change it and not loving themselves enough to change it.

Philip Pape  35:43

Yeah, 100%. And so if someone is in that state, and they're listening, and they're like, Okay, I hear it, and I've want to change. And in fact, maybe I've wanted to change for a while, and I may have taken certain actions change, and something's not quite working. I mean, I definitely deal with this all the time of like, I'm trying to lose weight, I'm trying to do this, or it's my hormones, or it's my gym, or whatever. And it's not working. And there's usually some underlying practical reason for that. But what is your take on that someone says, you know, I've got a lot of weight to lose, I'm trying, it's just not working. But

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  36:13

I see that with everything, you know, I have not to break away from kind of the point of, of our, you know, I have patients like, oh, I can't do it all. And I can't do this, and I can't do that I can't take my kid here. I'm asked for help. You don't have to do everything yourself. You know, if you find the right doctor, and you're willing to have a great relationship, you'll find someone that can help you. And at the same token, I find that, you know, again, we go way off the mountain sometimes and they think it's hormones, and they think it's it must be this, it must be that I'm doing everything right. And you're not. Yeah, they're not, you know, because everyone wants an easy answer. Not an excuse, but they want something easy to put their finger on to not have to do the hard work, be introspective, and say, maybe I maybe this is me. Yeah, right. And so sometimes it takes someone a little tough to say, Listen, I'm going to help you through it, we're going to get you there. But you got to look in the mirror and realize this is not your thyroid, this is not, you know your hormones, this is you and we got it, we got to get you back on track. And we'll check everything else. And we'll make sure everything else is optimized. But at the end of the day, 99% of the time, obesity is not due to some patho physiologic process, it's due to someone creating poor habits.

Philip Pape  37:22

Yeah. And that's an empowering message. If we want to spend in the positive, that's an empowering message because it means you're not at the whim of fate, you've got total control over the situation. And like you said, just ask for help if you're having trouble, or maybe you don't understand fully the context or the strategy that you need to be successful. And that's where others can help you other experts. Honestly, that's why you go on podcasts and such. That's why I have this it's like to share as much information as we can, based on whatever evidence we're aware of. So people can make those behavioral changes.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  37:53

And different things work for different people and that we know know intermittent fasting might work for you. It might not work for me, but you got to tease through all the BS and kind of find that and you've got to sometimes also step back and say, Okay, well, why is it so miraculous? And so why? Because someone's making money on it. So you have to, you know, if rapid is in there rapid weight loss or Miraculous Weight Loss, like these are not words that any physician or any clinic should ever be using. Because that's not healthy or safe, either. It's a stepwise approach. It's a very, it took you years to put on 50 pounds, it's not going to come off in three months. Yeah.

Philip Pape  38:29

So if somebody then is like, okay, now I hear you here, I'm ready to make a change. I'm going to seek help. Let's talk about the medical side, since that's where you're coming from? How does somebody find a provider that is actually going to help them because I know there's a lot of skepticism these days. I know, there's, there's like gaslighting and things like that out there, too, especially with women's health. There's a whole spectrum of quality out there, right? And it depends on where you live and your insurance and so many things. How does somebody find a good provider? What are they looking for, and then like, communicate with that person to get what they need?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  38:58

I think the first and foremost is finding a provider that number one you like, which that's step one, you have to like your doctor, if you don't like your doctor, it's just it's not gonna go well and that you feel like you communicate well with to a physician that really does focus on prevention, not just curing disease or taking care of someone but because they're coming in with what we call their chief complaint, right? That's for your listeners, it's what doctors say on the forum and you feel chief complaint, that we listen to complaints all day long, basically. Unfortunately, most preventive visits with the exception of an annual physical is not covered by insurances. So it might be something where someone that's listening has to say, Listen, I'm gonna, you know, I've been spending the money on smoking or I've been spending the money on food and you might just have to step back and say, Okay, well I'm gonna spend the money on this now and you might have to pay out of pocket and go without your insurance to have the time to sit down and talk to you know, maybe your current doctor or your new doctor about what your goals are. Because if you're wanting to sit down and spend 20 minutes 30 minutes with your Doctors are going over different goals and what you're trying to achieve, it's going to be hard to do if you're going through insurance because it just truthfully, I know, it's like Woe is me. But the reimbursements are so awful that most doctors just aren't going to do that. So I think finding a true weight loss like, doctor that's board certified, maybe I'm not, but I'm a cardiologist. So I do it but board certified and and Bariatric medicine or obesity medicine that understands this disease process, because it really there's a big mental component to this as well. And those physicians will help get through that break those barriers.

Philip Pape  40:32

Yeah. Isn't it funny that you're right, we spend so much money on so many frivolous things in our budget, and are not willing to spend on health care? Partly because, like you said, we think insurance should cover stuff. So if it doesn't, it's like not even in our sphere of existence, right? I hear that with hormones all the time. You know, my own wife too. We have to pay money for hormone specialists. And it might be functional medical care might be you know, board certified, whatever, it tends to be out of pocket because insurance doesn't cover it. And then like you said, You've got to like the relationship. I haven't. I've heard so many people who just dwell on somebody who's telling them that they're lying, you know, or they don't believe them or whatever. And that's, that's the gaslighting piece of it. But there's even just somebody who's who's in a hole.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  41:15

I hear that all the time. Like, why are you here? I hated the other cardiologist dudes. You know, like, I'm like, okay, cool. Welcome. You know?

Philip Pape  41:23

Exactly. I mean, you know, be nice. At the end

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  41:26

of the day, you just have to care a little bit. It's really not that hard. You know, like, we became doctors really, for two reasons. We like medicine and science. We like people. If you don't like people, you shouldn't be a doctor or you should be a pathologist and look at slides all day long.

Philip Pape  41:40

There you go. Yeah. Or a surgeon is kind of like in the middle. Yeah. We like or like, I'll talk to you for a little bit and then

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  41:45

or anesthesia. Right, you just night night.

Philip Pape  41:50

Perfect career choice there. Okay, so let's see, we talked about mental health. I guess let's Why don't we end with since you mentioned being nice. Your be nice philosophy. I mean, I love the science, of kindness of positive psychology, of all that kind of stuff. And that seems to tie in well, with mental health. I mean, tell me more about that.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  42:08

Makes me feel better. Yeah. That I mean, you know, I mean, listen, we all have our days. And trust me, I've had my moments like, everybody has their moments. But, you know, sometimes I think it's better to just step away, take a few breaths, and not let the excitement get the best of you on most days. And I listen, I and my patients will say like, Oh, somebody's like, are you okay, Doc, you seem a little off. It's like, Yeah, I'm having an off day. But my husband's a lawyer, and he has a he says something. And I said it's so true. As I say it's not it's not what you say it's how you say it. And my husband in law, they say there's a there's a tone and a tenor. Right. It's the tone and the tenor. It's not what you're saying. It's how aggressive you're sounding, or the tone of your voice and the way that you're saying it. And that's something I think a lot of people could probably benefit from. And I think there's nothing wrong with just kind of saying, you know, what, I need a minute and just kind of step away and clear your head. I mean, the world is a very chaotic and busy place, and we're all hustling and trying to be the best and trying to make the most money and thinking that what people look like on social media is actually what they look like in real life, which is absurd. And, and I think part of it, too, is just being truthful. My best friend says, Say what you mean and mean what you say. And I think there's something to that, you know, if you know, it's simple example, if you know, or if I know that someone asked me to go out, I don't know, for happy hour, and I say okay, yeah, maybe. But I know, in my heart of hearts, it's a no, just say no, yes. Because it's gonna create another problem for you and for ours, when they come back and ask you again, you know, yeah, and sometimes it's just say what you mean and mean what you say like, be nice about it. So you know what, maybe next time it's not, you know, that's not part of my journey today. I

Philip Pape  43:41

love that honest communication. We still read the physical paper, which you can believe it. And they have like the column where somebody writes in for advice. And it's always like, you don't even have to see the question. The answer is you need to talk about it. Like the answer is just communicating. Yeah.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  43:56

You're not upset, because you're never gonna get anywhere communicating when you're upset sometimes just again, taking a minute back be like, You know what, let's let's talk about this tomorrow. But let's like hash it out. But most problems in this world are because someone didn't communicate with someone else adequately.

Philip Pape  44:09

All right, last segment here, I did have some questions from our community. I think two of them have already been answered. So I'm gonna focus on the third one. The first question was how much cardio? I think we addressed that. The second one was does genetically elevated LDL in perimenopause predispose you to higher cardiovascular risk when everything else is in check? And I think again, you said Potentially, yes, yeah, higher LDL. I don't know if there's any more nuanced add to that right. A

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  44:32

little bit. I'm a big fan of hormone therapy and the perimenopausal menopausal period. I think that the Women's Health Initiative was very much skewed very early, you know, in the 90s and early 2000s. And now we're realizing that that hormones, probably the pendulum has shifted back and we should probably be offering a lot more hormones. But yes, it's like when you're pregnant, if you have high blood pressure during pregnancy, the likelihood of you having high blood pressure later in your life is also very high. So to answer that question, yes, I mean, if you have Paramount apostle increases in LDL, then there is a higher likelihood of having cardiovascular disease for sure.

Philip Pape  45:04

And that's kind of leads to a side question. So even if you have genetically higher baseline LDL from a fairly young age, that never goes up, let's just say it just stays that way your whole life. Does that still mean you have a higher cardiovascular risk? Yes. You're nodding. Yes. That's important for people to realize because sometimes people talk about Well, no, if that's your baseline, and then it's really only if it goes up. You're saying that there's

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  45:25

not like, it's not like, Oops, like, I'm a twice a day pooper. I've always been a twice a day pooper and the other person's I put three times a week and that's me. And that's normal for me. No, okay. You have a genetically elevated LDL, you are genetically predisposed to having heart disease. Okay, good.

Philip Pape  45:40

Good to know. And then the last one, perfect segue. You mentioned HRT? And I guess the question is more? Well, this was actually from a man. But I mean, I think it would apply to both that was for testosterone. For women, it could be all the other forms of hormone replacement therapy. And it was what this is a long question I should have, I should have shortened this. Oh, man, this is a very long question. So much information out there. Most GP doctors and non specialists continue to spread, for example, androgen induced, era throws, okay, you know what, forget this one. This is a very long detailed one I'm not going to get into I'm going to shorten it to HRT and cardiovascular health. Is there any concerns? Generally,

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  46:17

no, here's the thing with testosterone, I'm going to focus on testosterone that person was talking about the thing with testosterone is we tend to overdo it. Because men feel fantastic when they're on all this testosterone. There's also something to aging, right? If you're 65, and you feel like you're 20, it's kind of not normal, I don't want you to feel like an old 65. But I also don't really want you feel like you're 20 Because the way you feel and what's going on physiologically inside your body are very different. So my rule of thumb with testosterone is then really the guideline rule of thumb as having low levels and having symptoms. So you're fatigued or you have a low sex drive, you know, these kinds of things. And this is this is when it calls for appropriate testosterone supplementation. By appropriate I mean, we supplement it within normal range. It can be the upper limit of normal range, but we don't want to go super therapeutic with testosterone.

Philip Pape  47:11

PD range, don't go into PD range. Yeah, yeah, the reason

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  47:15

is, I can guarantee you testosterone levels are too high cholesterol goes up, blood pressure goes up, higher risk of clotting, pulmonary embolisms coronary clots, big risk. That's why you see the hemoglobin go up so much. And that's a real risk. I've had multiple patients in my practice, end up with open heart surgery, and they had zero risk factors other than inappropriate testosterone supplementation at younger ages. So I have I'm not one of those, I don't have a problem with it. But it needs to be done appropriately. And you have to be very careful weighing the high from the symptoms and what's is causing some metabolic derangement in the body. It's kind of flip flopped for women a little bit. There's no real studies that say like, if you're on estrogen, you're going to decrease your risk of heart disease. It also doesn't increase it. And so for women, we really treat symptoms, not so much numbers, we don't want to over over overdo it. But for women, it's very much symptom driven terms of hot flashes and fatigue and insomnia and things like that. But we do know unequivocally that women that get estrogen treatment and perimenopause and menopause have a lower and somehow still have a lower incidence of heart disease, they have a lower incidence of high cholesterol, lower incidence of hypertension, long term, and most definitely lower incidence of osteoporosis. So it kind of cuts both ways, a little bit differently than than men and women.

Philip Pape  48:35

No, that's good to know the difference. And I wasn't aware of that at all. And yeah, testosterone. On the men's side, it's still controversial for lots of different reasons, especially in the world of lifting where men what would love to be diagnosed and low testosterone so that they can go on supplementation. One more thing related to that. This gentleman is talking about poli sci fi media, which I think is like a blood cancer related to this. I don't know where that comes into it. Poli

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  48:59

Sci Fi news. And he's probably referring to having an elevated hemoglobin from the testosterone. So that's where the risk is. That's where the real you know, so it's just interesting to me that some men, they want this testosterone to be so high and and I'll go like, literally give blood it's like, well, just think about that, from a common sense perspective. Like how good do you think it could be to give yourself something where you have to go give blood because of the adverse effect it's doing in your body? Right? Yeah. So it's kind of like a common so if you're if your testosterone so high, where you have to go give blood, you're overdoing it. Okay,

Philip Pape  49:30

his last part of his question was a potential preventative measure of giving blood regularly power read donations, so you know that you know, this stuff, probably overdoing it. Yeah. Okay. No, that's good to know. I think that's all I have there. So you know, I do like to ask guests, Tiffany, because this has been super enlightening. There's a lot of moments of where I learned, I'm sure and like the calcium score or things like that. Is there a question you wish I had asked in this conversation? And if so, what's your answer?

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  49:56

Probably. Do I take my own advice? Oh, Oh,

Philip Pape  50:00

sure, let's go there.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  50:02

Yeah, generally I do, I try and eat, you know, and this is I think you have to practice what you preach. I generally eat very well. And there are days where I don't and there's days where maybe have some crap that day, because that's just how my life is going that day. And I just, I'm starving, and I don't have time to eat something great. But generally I eat well, generally, I try and exercise at least three times a week and I exercise exercise, you know, and I try to meditate, and I have a little meditation device that helps me meditate. Yeah, I mean, I am definitely a practice what you preach. And I and I bring that up. Because a lot of times people say, Oh, it's easy for you, because you know, whatever your thing and, but I need a but I make a very concerted effort. Like, I'm crazy. And I weigh myself every day, I get on the scale every day. And I like my numbers to be within a certain range. And when they're not, I do whatever I need to do to get them back down. Because that's what works for me. But yeah, I truly practice what I preach, I try and have a positive outlook on life. And again, I have days I've got bad eating days, I've got bad mood days, I've got bad everything days. But I think you know, being happy. And I can say this. Now I'm 38 I'm probably the happiest I've ever been in my life. Because I kind of just got this stuff figured out now. So I was giving a lecture to my eighth grade alma mater, which is so cute. And I was giving a speech. And I said in my speech, if it doesn't make you happy, make you money or make you healthy. It's a waste of your time. And that's just the truth, right? You have to go to work to make your money. And you have to, you know, you want to go to the gym because you want to be healthier you eat well, if you want to be healthy. Other than that, if someone or something does not make you happy, probably should get rid of it. Because happiness is truly number one.

Philip Pape  51:48

Yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, you talked about before not being perfect. And just taking the micro steps, taking the little steps along the way. And anyone's listening who's like, Well, yeah, I'm far from what Tiffany is doing today. It doesn't matter you are where you are, like, just start taking those steps going forward.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  52:03

I'd say honey, my life seven years ago was a hot mess Express. So I you know, you gotta all have to improve that. You got to take those baby steps. But then once you get there, it's almost like that sense of like Nirvana and enlightening. Like, I can't imagine getting there again. Because once you get it kind of figured out what's important and not important in your life and not even talking to be like when you go around people and you're just feel their negative energy. Like just, you gotta go, they gotta go. I've gotten rid of people. Like, I don't have anything bad to say about you. You just can't be around you anymore.

Philip Pape  52:32

Yeah, no, I can totally relate. I'm all about positivity. That's yeah, some people get sick of it. And I'm like, Well, you're not in my sphere anymore. I'm just getting. That's a yooper. Is that me, bro? Yeah, exactly. And it's funny because I'm 43 now and I tell people like I got in the best shape of my life when I was 40. So I mean, you know, at any age, you can start it took me forever to start figuring stuff out as well. It's right. Just curious about your exercise three times a week. What are you doing these days? So

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  52:55

I actually have it behind me my little total. I'll total okay. I have my total I do that like once or twice a week and then I go to the gym with my husband, although I don't work out with my husband cuz he I jokingly call it his old man workout. He works out people a little bit older than him. It's kind of like their guy time they're working out. It's bullshit. They're not really. But I I go to the gym and I am so I walk it inclines, I'm not a runner. I never have been a runner. Again. Everyone's different, right? Like, I have the body of a runner, you would think I'm a runner, I cannot run. I get side splints and I've never been able to do it. So I walk inclines and I do a lot of high intensity interval training I do I really kind of focus on muscle groups. I do buys fries lunges all that kind of stuff.

Philip Pape  53:38

Cool Awesome. Yeah no the walking yeah I don't like running either. I used to be anti running even in when I talked about not only do you not have to run you don't have to run ever used to be the running kills your gains thing that's that would to the opposite extreme of

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  53:53

course. Running does do is it really can if you're especially on a treadmill if you're not running like outside and like terrain it will jack your knees. Oh yeah. Yeah, that heart Yeah, like Yeah, so thinking about the whole picture right? Like okay, well how can I keep my weight off get my cardiovascular and and not like, hurt something else and like, but okay, walking in inclines will do that. Right. So it's just, you know, it's what your individual goals. That's all some people might have a goal of I really want to run a marathon. It's very important to me. I want to do this. Yeah, exactly. I really have that desire. This.

Philip Pape  54:27

Got a video issue again. Oh, all right. So, Tiffany, where can listeners learn more about you and your work? My

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  54:33

Instagram? I guess. So my personal one is? Dr. Like Dr. Tiffany D Pietro di p i e TRL. My business one is D Pietro health. And my website is dp MetroHealth. How to think about that D Pietro health.com.

Philip Pape  54:51

All right, Dr. Devaney, D Pietro at D petrol health and D Pietro health.com. I will put those all in the show notes. So let's They're just gonna find you. And this has been an awesome conversation. I'm glad I'm glad we met you came on here. I love your positivity, and so much wisdom. Keep doing what you're doing. And thanks again for coming on.

Dr. Tiffany Di Pietro  55:08

Thanks for having me.

Philip Pape  55:09

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their weights or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Ep 174: Q&A - Partial Reps for More Muscle, Too Much Cardio for Fat Loss, Lose Weight Not Muscle

Do you feel stuck in a weight loss rut? Do you want to maximize fat loss without sacrificing muscle gains? Are you confused about whether partial reps are worth it or just a waste of time?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) shares excellent questions from Jonathan and Matt in the Fanlist voice message inbox. They were curious about optimizing training and nutrition for fat loss and muscle growth. You’ll discover whether incorporating partial reps can effectively build more muscle mass and how to do so intelligently in your training routine. Additionally, Philip dives into the ideal amount and type of cardio to maximize fat loss without compromising your hard-earned gains. Plus, you’ll learn proven strategies for overcoming weight loss plateaus while preserving lean muscle tissue. 

If you’d like to have your question answered on a future episode and receive a shout-out, you can either leave a voice message in the Fanlist inbox or send a text message.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:28 What should I do to break through a weight loss plateau after losing 40 lbs since January?  I'm 5'8", currently 220 lbs, lifting 4-5x/week and jogging 3-4x/week. Should I ditch cardio to have more time/energy for lifting? How much more weight is realistic to lose by August without losing muscle?

18:22 What's your opinion on partial reps? Are they beneficial for muscle growth or a waste of time?

31:43 Outro

Episode resources:

• Submit a voice message for the next Q&A

Episode summary:

Striking the perfect balance between fat loss and muscle gain is an intricate dance that fitness enthusiasts strive to master. The latest episode of Wits and Weights podcast offers an in-depth exploration of this topic. The podcast begins by dissecting the optimal combination of cardio and strength training, emphasizing the need for a well-rounded routine that promotes not only a leaner physique but also cardiovascular health. The conversation then pivots to NEAT—non-exercise activity thermogenesis—and its critical role in daily calorie expenditure, highlighting the often-overlooked activities that can contribute significantly to weight loss.

Jonathan's weight loss journey is presented as a case study, providing listeners with a real-life example of the challenges and triumphs associated with balancing fat loss and muscle maintenance. The episode stresses the importance of adjusting strategies as one progresses in their fitness journey, noting that what works at the start may not be as effective as the body adapts and changes. Moreover, the podcast touches upon the nuanced approach required when entering different phases of fitness, such as when to take a diet break or pivot to a muscle-building focus.

The conversation takes a deep dive into the art of partial reps in weight training, addressing listener Matt's query about their efficacy for muscle growth. Partial reps, characterized by a shorter range of motion than full reps, are examined for their ability to handle heavier loads, target weak points, and maintain constant muscle tension. Despite these benefits, the episode acknowledges that partial reps should complement, rather than replace, full range of motion exercises for overall muscle development.

As the discussion unfolds, practical advice is dispensed on how to intelligently incorporate partial reps into one's regime. The importance of maintaining proper form, avoiding ego lifting, and ensuring progressive overload, even with partial reps, is underscored. The episode then rounds off with a conversation about heart health and body image, connecting physical fitness with the broader context of health and societal perceptions.

Listeners are encouraged to follow the podcast for ongoing fitness wisdom and are reminded that the journey to a stronger self is ongoing and requires a commitment to adaptation and learning. The podcast episode, rich in actionable advice and grounded in fitness principles, is a valuable resource for anyone looking to enhance their physique and overall well-being.

In conclusion, the episode serves as a reminder that the journey to a leaner, stronger self is a complex one, fraught with potential pitfalls but also ripe with opportunity for growth and self-discovery. By adhering to principle-based fitness strategies and remaining adaptable to the body's changing needs, individuals can achieve their fitness goals without sacrificing health or succumbing to burnout. Whether you're just starting out or looking to break through a plateau, Wits and Weights provides the knowledge and inspiration to forge ahead on the path to physical self-mastery.

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Transcript

Philip Pape  00:00

Is cardio killing your gains installing fat loss? Could partial reps be the key to packing on more muscle? In this q&a episode we answer listener voice messages about optimizing fat loss without sacrificing your hard earned muscle. The ideal cardio strategy for your goals, the truth about partial reps and proven tactics to break through plateaus while sculpting your dream physique. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Within weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The Whitson weights podcast in our last episode 173 Why mindset alone won't solve your food and hormone struggles with Tanya Shaw, we explore the limitations of the mind over matter mentality and how combining mindset with an understanding of body science is key to not just achieving but loving your health results. You even learn how thoughts and emotions affected our body's functions, especially hormones, and some simple techniques to help you actually shift your mindset to better support your health goals. Today for Episode 174, we have a q&a. The title is partial reps for more muscle, too much cardio for fat loss, lose weight, not muscle. And we've got a couple of great questions submitted to our fan list voice message inbox. From Jonathan and Matt about optimizing your training and nutrition for fat loss and muscle growth. You'll discover whether partial reps can be an effective tool for building more muscle mass, and how to incorporate them intelligently into your training. We'll also dive into the ideal amount and type of cardio for maximizing fat loss without sacrificing your hard earned gains. Plus, you'll learn proven strategies for breaking through weight loss plateaus while preserving lean muscle tissue. Now if you'd like me to answer a question on a future episode and give you a shout out, you can either leave a voice message on our fanless inbox or send a text message. Both links are in the show notes. Again, you can just leave a voice message. It's through fan list, the click the link is in the show notes or sent a text message straight to the show. That's a one way text message with your privacy protected. And we are now going to jump right into the q&a. And I'm going to play for you the audio of the two questions. So our first question comes from Jonathan in Las Vegas. Let's take a listen.

Jonathan  02:38

Hi, my name is Jonathan and I come from Las Vegas. I just found your show within the last week. Lots of great tips so far. Anyway, I started losing weight back in January as New Year's resolution because I'm going to be 40 in August. I'm five, eight, I started off at 260 pounds. And now in May, I'm down to 220. I lift weights about four to five times a week. I try jogging about three or four times a week. I'm counting my calories. They're working great so far. But now I'm hitting a plateau. If I increase the running, I just don't have enough time. And then I'm too tired to lift on those days. I don't know if I should ditch the cardio altogether, because I heard that it can be done without it. I really don't know. But I just need to figure out how to make the most of my time. And I also heard if I'm losing too fast, I could lose muscle, which I don't want. So I just need a way to maybe try to lose 20 more pounds by August, or I don't know what would be realistic. Anyways, any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Awesome.

Philip Pape  03:53

Well, first of all, Jonathan, massive congratulations on that progress. So far doing this on your own. You're asking all the right questions and providing me just the right amount of context to understand what some of the things that could be going on to give you at least some, you know, principle based guidance here that I think anyone listening can benefit from. But you started in January as a New Year's resolution. Here's an example where you use the resolution to commit and you stayed committed, and you did the right things over time. And we're consistent to get to this point, which is awesome, right? Because people criticize New Year's resolutions all the time. And it's usually simply because people try to do too much all at once, and then they fail. And then we you know, we blame resolutions in your case, you used it as a driver as a motivator. And then you started to take action, and you're doing a bunch of the right things. And there's some other things that could probably be tweaked here and there and remember that as you go through a long process like this with a decent amount of fat to lose, you can always apply the exact same strategies throughout the entire process. You can definitely the same principles but the strategies will have to change based on your biofeedback and your results and your app. adaptation and all of that. So we're going to drill down into each of these things that I, hopefully I remember them all from the question. But again, 40 pounds in about four to five months, that is about two pounds a week, if I have that, right, that's like, maybe not quite 1% of your body weight a week, but we always talk about 1% per week being the limit above which you tend to start losing muscle mass. Now for bigger guys, like you, you have a little more flexibility and fat to work with, you have some fat storage, that actually helps you, right, and we can look, reframe that as a positive thing, because it's extra calories that your body can draw on. Because you're not very lean to begin with. And so it gives you the ability to go more aggressive at the beginning, and still potentially even build some muscle while you're losing fat. So, you know, that's, that's awesome, right? It's a testament to the consistency and hard work with everything you're doing. And I know it probably hasn't been easy either. But you're doing awesome. And you're you're almost where you want to be, at least for this visit this first phase. Now you talked about hitting a weight plateau, which plateau is a kind of a dirty word sometimes, right? We use it to mean like things aren't moving anymore. And so now I need to crank up the movement, or I need to crank down the calories to push to the plateau. When in reality, oftentimes, even if you feel like you're doing all the right things, there's a piece of that, that we don't fully understand until we have all the data. And it might be that you're building muscle and losing fat at the same time, it might be that you're getting more stressed or less sleep. And it might simply be because as you've lost all his weight, this 40 pounds, you've experienced metabolic adaptation, you've experienced it in a few ways. First is the traditional reason because you are your hormones are responding to the lack of energy, and down regulating everything making you more efficient, right, and you saw you burn fewer calories, but you've also lost a ton of weight. And so you simply are moving around less mass, and that requires fewer calories. So I suspect that your expenditure has dropped drop drop drop that whole time, you say that your calorie tracking, but you didn't mention whether you're tracking your metabolic rate or your expenditure. Because, you know, whatever intake you started with, right, let's say you calculated that you burn at the beginning 3500 calories, and you wanted to go into 1000 calorie deficit to lose two pounds a week, you know, 1000 calories a day to lose two pounds a week. And so you said I'm going to eat 2500 calories. Well as your body adapts, and that 3500 expenditure drops. If you keep eating 2500 calories, the weight loss rate will slow down, right the deficit will get smaller. So you have to keep that intake up with your deficit. Now, you've had decent progress, which tells me that you have been keeping up with that, or, or your metabolism hasn't dropped that much. And I've seen this with clients who are on the bigger size where especially male clients who are detained are really lift heavy, you know, consistently they train well. And sometimes I'll find that once they're training well, and walking and doing all those things, and eating a bunch of protein, their metabolism might actually level off and increase right, which is crazy to think about, but it happens. So unless I have that history of yours, I don't know. And one you've probably heard me talk about macro factor on the show. I don't know if you're already using it. But if you're not go right now and download macro factor, enter my code Whitsun weights all one word, get the free two week trial from that, start using it backdate or retroactively enter your last, like 20 or 30 days of calories per day that you ate, and your scale weight so that it can update its algorithm more quickly. And then you'll know what is my expenditure, so that I can break through that quote unquote, plateau going forward. So once you've got that set up, now we have some numbers to work with. And some accuracy we can target. Now you said your five, eight, your 220 pounds. All right. So I'm five, nine, and I'm 180. And some people call me you know, a skinny guy that needs to gain weight, but just put it in perspective, like the dudes that I work with people who lift you know, muscle mass body composition, you're probably not that far from a really good body composition and leanness than you think even, you know, you said you have a lot of room to lose, do you want to lose 20 more pounds? Maybe, right? We don't know for sure that 200 is a magic number, you could get down to two or five to 10. And realize, hey, this is actually a great place to be and I don't want to continue, like really trying to push it because of what it takes. Or you can be like nah, I want to get down to you know, 190 and that's that's my goal, because I want to get to a certain level of leanness or a certain look. And then you'll go into muscle building phase. So that is up to you and your goals. Jonathan, I would say on average somebody who's 225 Eight, yeah, they're probably a little bit higher in the body fat percentage, you know, territory, and getting down to say 200 or 190. We'll put them closer to that 15% ish, you know, 15 to 20% you're probably a decent amount above 20%. But as you get leaner Are, we had to take a little bit more moderate approach because you don't have that excess fat, we don't want to stall out, we don't want to just be too low with the energy and the carbs for your lifting sessions, and all of that stuff, right, it's just it gets a little bit more tricky. And we have to be a little more conservative. So first, I would make sure that your nutrition is dialed in. You didn't give me any details on that. But you did say you're counting calories. So again, get macro factor. So not only seeing your calories, but you get evidence based targets for your macro goals, based on your target weight goal. So let's say your target weight is 190 or 200, I think you said it's 200. All right, you want to be the in about 200 grams of protein, another 30% or so calories from fat and the rest of the carbs. If your macros are anywhere off of that it could affect your performance, it could affect your muscle mass loss, or preservation and things like that your energy and so on. So we're, you know, for guy like you, I'm thinking around 200 grams of protein per day, about 30% from fat. And that's going to depend on how many calories you're eating, and then the rest from carbs. For the rate of loss, you've been hitting about point 8.9% your body weight, you could conceivably go up to that same rate for the remaining 20 pounds. So at 220. That's, let's say on the upper end, two pounds a week 1000 calorie deficit a day. And that would get you the 20 pounds in 10 weeks. So I would say in terms of realistic, yeah, totally realistic. And because you're still still bigger, so have a little weight to lose. I think the flexibility is there, as long as you're not feeling like it's depriving you so much that you're starting to get food obsessed. For example, if you want a more moderate approach, and you're happy with like 10 to 15 pounds, I would say that was more reasonable and super sustainable, right. And that would put you at, like 500 to 750 calorie deficit a day. In terms of cardio, alright, you mentioned you jog like three or four times a week, I don't know how much walking or steps you get. Besides that, I definitely wouldn't ditch it completely. If it's a routine for you. I think it's great. You know, for heart health, it can be helpful with recovery in assists, it can assist a little bit with fat loss. But if you feel like it's burning you out, it's impairing your performance, you don't have enough time, it's just too much, you can definitely reduce it. And I don't think it's going to make a huge difference. As long as your overall movement and activity is not dropping that much. Like in terms of your step count. So if you go from like, you know, 20,000, subsidy down to 8000 subsidy that can make a difference. But if you go from like 15 to 12, it may not make a big difference. And in fact, you might notice it actually reduces some of the stress on your body, and helps you continue that fat loss and feel a little better. Keep in mind also, if you lower the rate of loss to be a little more conservative, you wouldn't need that extra activity necessarily, because you're kind of making up for it in the food department, you know, you're eating more food, or I shouldn't say you're eating more food, you're you might be eating the same amount of food, but you don't need to burn as much energy because the deficit is smaller, if that makes sense. And then I would say like your priority should be your strength training, right? That's the key to maintaining your muscle while you lean down, focusing on those heavy lifts, the compound lifts pushing for progressive overload. I don't know what your split looks like, I'm assuming it's solid. But I would you know, if I were your coach I would take a look at that makes sure the lifting sessions themselves aren't too long and too much during the week. You might think it's sacrilegious for me to say this, but if you're doing too much in the lifting department for volume, that might have to come down to allow you to recover while the cardio and the walking stays the same. You know, it's you never know it depends on how you feel. And this is where tracking your biofeedback, your hunger, your digestion, your sleep, your energy recovery, your mood. And then tying that to the changes that you make is going to be very helpful. Now aside from lifting and like formal cardio, we talk about neat non exercise Activity Thermogenesis which is like all the walking, the fidgeting, the cleaning, doing chores, and that's where again, I look for what is your step count right now, that plus cardio if the total stays in that 10 to 14k range that's really really solid. It really saw even if it is just from walking, instead of from jogging, for example, because the jogging really could be hindering a little bit of the recovery, maybe maybe you might be adapted to it. And if you have good form, it may not be that much of an issue. All right. So to recap, I know threw a lot at you, you know tighten up nutrition, make sure you're tracking with macro factor, make sure the protein is up there, go for the as aggressive a calorie deficit that's sustainable for you, but not too aggressive. reallocate some of the energy from cardio if needed, so you can crush it in the weight room and get those you know, not just the gains, but the preserving your muscle. You know, look at your meat in terms of your step count and get it into that like 10 12k range, and then go at the right rate of loss and adjust your calories and macros each week. If you use a macro factor that's automatic, where you shouldn't be hitting plateaus at that point. Now, as of the time of this episode, 20 pounds by August is about 10 weeks away. So that's two pounds a week. And that's, I'll say aggressive, but within the norm within the range of realistic, and again may not be ideal if you're feeling a bit rundown. So you got to think about those. And by the way, you can follow up with me directly, you can either send a text, or reach out to me on Instagram at Whitson weights. Jonathan, if you want to follow up with some more details, let me know you heard this and what you're doing, we can even give an update to the community. I think that's all I wanted to cover for that. Oh, yeah. The other thing is, if you get down to like 205, to 10, even if you don't get all the way to the 200, and it's August, September timeframe, you're probably in a great position then, to go to maintenance for a while, if not into a very lean muscle building phase all through the fall and winter months, the perfect time to be eating more food, right, you can jack up the calories back up that by the 750 or 1000 calories you are missing out on. Right, it might be at a lower rate than you started because you're so much lighter, but it'll still be a lot more calories, help your metabolism recover. And just just feel great in the gym and everywhere else for a while. And take this nice long diet break is effectively what it is I break a guy like us trying to lose like 60 pounds. Normally, I would recommend breaks and refeeds be built in anyway. So that's the only other piece I didn't mention is I know you want to get to this number by August. But one other approaches, you can just go at a slow roll fit in some diet breaks and maintenance for like a week or two and really extend it out but not ever feel like you're really dieting that hard. That's the other approach. If you missed my episode on how fast should I lose weight for fat loss that came out recently. Check that one out because I described the different scenarios for you. And it might give you some more ideas as well. Anyone else listening. So consistency, man, trusting that process showing up like you're doing you're gonna get the result. I'm very excited for you. This is what it's all about. Enjoying that journey, keep up and keep that momentum up and you'll come out the other side, you know, a leaner, meaner version of yourself.

Philip Pape  17:03

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitsun weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show. Alright, so that was the first question. Second question comes from Matt. He asks about partial reps, and whether they're actually useful for building muscle, and I'm gonna play his audio in a second. But I will say this is a super common question these days, both partial and long length partials. And there's a lot of debate around it in the fitness industry. So let's just take a listen to Matt's audio and then we'll break it down.

Matt  18:45

My question is about partial reps. I've heard a lot of conflicting, conflicting things about partials. Some people say they're great for muscle growth, stimulate muscle growth. Some people say they're not. What's your opinion on partials? Should I avoid them? Don't waste time, or are they beneficial after all? Thanks, podcast is awesome. My name is Matt Roberts. Thanks, Bunny.

Philip Pape  19:10

Alright, so I wanted to play his audio for two reasons. One, the accent from across the pond. We love that here. And the other is, you know, the shout out about how awesome the podcast is, which can never stroke my ego enough. But in all seriousness, Matt, very good question. I don't know that I've covered partial reps in any great detail on the show, other than some discussions with I think Brian Borstein. So go back and find his interview. And I wouldn't did i i think he's the only guy I've ever talked about it with. Not even a nd Baker. I'm not sure we even got into partial reps. But anyway, again, appreciate the kind words in the great question. It's a polarizing topic. Some people swear by them. I know trainers who are like, yeah, all they do is partials these days, like long length partials and it's working great for me. Other people say now they're useless. As with most things, the truth is in the middle. So let's define first what we mean by partial reps, such as some people case people are like, What the heck are you talking about? A partial rep is what it sounds like. It's a repetition that uses a shorter range of motion than a full rep. Now I'm gonna trigger some people here because squats, the right way to squat, when you do a normal full range squat is below parallel. And there are a lot of people that don't squat to depth, they will squat an inch above parallel or even much higher than that. And to me, that is a partial squat, even if you think you're going all the way down. So that's one thing I want to get out of the way. I know that's what you're not asking about, Matt, I'm sure you're like, super dialed in with all your form, and you know exactly how to execute partial versus full reps. But just in case, I'm putting it out there, that like a half or a quarter squat, that is a partial rep where you don't go all the way into full depth. Another example would be benchpress lockouts, where you're not coming down all the way to your chest. And by the way, partial reps can go both directions. So like if you had some pins set up, and you set up the bar for benchpress, really low, close to your chest, on pins, and then you did pin presses, those are partials as well, right, because you're not, you're starting at the bottom and you're not going, you're not going all the way down to the chest. So there's different ways to look at it, you can look at it from both sides of the range of motion, the top half of a bicep curl, but also the bottom half of the bicep curl, right? That's long, that's the lengthen partial. So that's what a partial rep is. And the argument for them is they allow you to handle heavier loads. That's one argument like, oh, well, I'm shortening the range of motion. So I can go heavier, right. And I can target weak points and lift. For example, if you think of a rack pole, that's like a partial deadlift, that's what it is to partial range of motion deadlift. And you can go a lot heavier on a rack pole, than you could on a deadlift, and target just part of the musculature, which has some validity as an accessory as a support as a variant, right. Another argument is that they maintain constant tension on the muscle. Now, this is the idea that if you're simply kind of speeding up the movement, and sticking within a small range, like imagine bicep curls from the top, and you bring them down just a few inches, you come up and down, up and down, and you're constantly maintaining that tension. Another good example, you ever done lying tricep extensions. And one way I like to do them is I, I at the top, I don't lock out vertically, I actually lock out with some load hanging out, right, the moment arm hanging behind me a bit and keeping tension on there. That's kind of a bodybuilding thing. And so partial reps allow you to do that in different creative ways as well. It's same thing with like the lengthen partials, right, if you think of lengthen partial squats, you're going all the way down to the bottom, you're pushing up, but you're not getting past that lockout point. And then you're going back down again, that can create a lot of tension during that time, you're never really relaxing, you're never getting that load off of you at the lockout, it also can help you get in some extra volume after you get to failure with full reps. So again, lengthen partials. For example, if you've exhausted the muscle with the full range, now you can do some more and lengthen range. And some people see that as a nice way to get in some more volume, where otherwise you will be completely fatigued. And again, there is some validity there as well. All of these things could theoretically lead to more muscle growth, if they're done in an intelligent way to supplement in my opinion, to supplement mostly full rom movements, but there's definitely a place for them. Now, the drawback is that they don't train the full range of motion, right. And full ROM is generally considered superior for overall muscle development for your movement patterns for your strength gains, and then even functionality. And again, I hate to use the word functional. But when we talk about squats, doing the full squat, engaging all the musculature as the human body was designed, right, same thing with pressing, same thing with pulling, getting the full raw movements in there, at a minimum, I think is essential for people. That doesn't mean you can't do variation. So for example, you don't have to deadlift you could do say Romanian deadlifts, right, you might have some limitations, you might have some fatigue that causes you to avoid certain movements, whatever. But I'm talking about full rom versus partial. So full rom ensures that you're strengthening the muscle through the complete contraction and the stretch, not just one portion of it. And we know that is associated with positive hypertrophy outcomes, right muscle development outcomes, as well as strength. If you have a training plan, I would say you know, increasing your weight, your volume reps, whatever progressive overload, right? We call it through full rom lifts. That should be the foundation that should be the foundation I think I even put a quick quiz out recently called compound lifts as the foundation of your training or whatever, and I'm talking about full rom lifts. But I do think partials can serve as a useful tool. So for example, some exercises would be done with a modified ROM for safety or to target the prime movers more effectively. I mentioned rappels right? Block deadlifts or what do you call them like nuts stiff legged deadlifts. But I'm losing my mind here. But instead of full deadlifts, you have the you have the bar raised. So it's either raised on some blocks, or pads or up on pins, right? It's raised above where it's higher than the ground, instead of full full deadlifts. So effectively, that's what a rack pole is. But a rack pulls in a much higher version of that with a rack pole, you could be right below the knee, or maybe right above the knee, and that that range, board presses or floor presses. And in fact, board presses are the one where you can get a little a device that goes on the bar that prevents the bar from coming all the way down. That can be really good. If you have wonky shoulders, like I've noticed, doing both paused bench presses and pin presses where my shoulder doesn't fully extend. So I'm not getting the full range is helpful. But remember, it depends on what you're trying to train. If you're not trying to train the shoulders with your benchpress and you're really focused on the pecs, then you could do these partials you could even just do inclines for that matter, right and do different movements altogether. And then do shoulder specific movements for your shoulder. So you could definitely get creative. And in this case, the partial ROM is intentional. It's not like getting lazy, like a you partial squatters out there that you need to go to fold up. And I don't mean to call you lazy, you may not be aware, this is where form checks and having a coach and being in a community and all that can help Whitson weights physique University come join us. It could also be the result of ego lifting guys guys out there ego lifting, where you start to do cheater raps, partial reps, the whole deal. I see this a lot with isolation movements, especially. However, I also see them with things like the overhead press, okay, the overhead press, you've got to get your head out of the way, you've got to have that vertical bar path. And then at the top, you've got to have that full shrug at the top. If you're not doing a full shrug, we're talking, push that button, don't just tap it, push that button up into the ceiling, then it's a partial ROM, it's not a full rom press. So some of you may be thinking you're doing full rom movements, and you're getting partials. And you're hearing this episode, like, Oh, I've got some opportunity there. I don't know if that's you met. But I wanted to pull that out. Because this answer I'm giving you is going to be much more comprehensive than maybe you thought. And that's what we do here on Whitson weights. All right. partials can also be strategically used to blast through sticking points. So let's say you're struggling with your benchpress lockout. That's where you could throw in some heavy partial reps in the top half of the movement, using accommodating resistance, right chains, bands, a slingshot, a lot of guys in my lifting community know what I'm talking about. That's a way to assist part of the movement. And so you're effectively making it a partial rom because you're not fully loading the entire ROM. And in fact, bands in general, in different movements can help with that. Like if you want to do deadlifts with a band, for example, you're you're adding more load to part of the ROM. And so that's form of a partial, if you allow me that definition. Let's see another scenario, I think partials can be helpful is if you want to accumulate extra, what we call metabolic stress at the end of a set, right extra fatigue. So let's say you hit failure on I don't know, dumbbell lateral raises, right? 12 reps. Once you and you can't get up and you know, you can't bring all you can't bring your arm all the way up. Well, you do partial reps and you can still get that burn and that stimulus that pumping the shoulder by getting those extra partials. They're kind of like cheater reps. But you've already done the work you intended. Now you're just like torching those medial delts. And getting this extra constant tension. Think of the extreme of this being one single rep where you're just holding it there, and it starts to burn, right? You get what I'm saying? You know, and the idea here is you still have to go pretty heavy at that point because you're doing a partial. So as a general guideline, Matt, I'd say partial reps can be a tool in the toolbox, but not the main, the main course of the main tool, right and here's I'm going to recap everything I just said because I went on a whole bunch of what I thought were very exciting tangents that I hope you found interesting, but I'm going to recap for you. Number one stick to fall ROM for the majority of your training, we're talking probably 80 to 90% of your training, especially the main compound lifts, used partial sparingly on isolation and accessory movements like lat raises tricep pushdowns, leg extensions, curls, etc. Number three, sprinkle them in toward the end of a workout if you want to as an intensity technique, or if you want to eke out some extra volume on a lagging body part number four, make sure you're controlling the eccentric, that you're pausing in the contracted position and you're keeping that constant tension. Okay, even even when you're doing partial, you want to make it a deliberate, objectively measurable range of motion so that you can actually progress that rom number five, don't ego lift, don't sacrifice form just to lift more weights with partials. And number six track your partial rep sets. and aim to progress over time like you would with full rank, just what I mentioned. Make it objective. All right, Matt, hopefully that helps provide what I think is a pretty comprehensive and balanced take on partial reps. If you use them intelligently, you use them. You know, in moderation, I'll say I think they can be a valuable addition to, like both physique and strength focus programs, I think they can help. But they're like the icing on the cake right there the gravy as they say. So when in doubt, prioritize full rom progressive overload. And that's really gonna move the needle long term. You don't have to do partials, but that can be a lot of fun. Okay, so that was two questions answered in great detail. We covered a lot of ground, plateaus, fat loss, muscle retention, cardio, neat partials. Remember that this is principles that we talk about here, there's no one size fits all. The reason my answers tend to be on the longer side, rather than just rapid fire is because there are a lot of events, there are a lot of things to think about for what works best for you, your lifestyle, there's trial and error, there's, there's experimentation that you need to do, and then be consistent for a while with the thing you're testing out to get the result or not. And that feedback feeds back to the next experiment. So you know, for Jonathan, right, my advice is, more or less, stay the course and trust the process, but start to dial in some things. Dial in his tracking, use macro factor, balance out his activity for recovery, and all of that, and he's trending in the right direction. So he's winning, he's winning, right? That's an inspiration to all of us. And then for Matt, and anyone else, wondering about partial reps, use them widely. They can help you smash your sticking points, get a killer pump, and they shouldn't comprise the bulk of your training, right? You're not going to go wrong. Prioritizing heavy compound lifts with good form. And sprinkling in the partials, you know, is sort of cherry on top. So if you've got a question you want me to answer in a future episode like this, you can either leave a voice message on our fan list inbox, or send a text message. Both of those links are in the show notes. And Whitson waits busy University continues to be open for enrollment as well. If you're looking for personalized guidance for some of these types of questions, where we can dig in with your actual numbers, your plan your life and figure out how it works. I'm always going to mention that here that the link is available in the show notes if you want to check it out. And if you're not sure, you can always reach out to me Instagram at Whitson weights, send a text message, email me whatever all the ways. Alright, in our next episode 175. The big is beautiful movement, obesity and heart health with Dr. Tiffany DiPietro. We discuss some of the myths surrounding heart disease, like the idea that it's only a man's disease or you must have symptoms to have a problem. Tiffany is going to share her best practices for nutrition and exercise to maintain a healthy heart and effective ways to prevent cardiovascular issues. And then we step into the minefield of the big is beautiful movement by asking the question Can big also be healthy. Make sure please right now hit follow hit follow hit follow in your podcast app to get notified when that episode comes out. And you will be supporting the show by doing that. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the wits end weights podcast.

Philip Pape  33:14

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Ep 173: Why Mindset Alone Won't Solve Your Food and Hormone Struggles with Tanja Shaw

Are you feeling overwhelmed? Are you ready for a life change? Discover when mindset isn’t enough and the secret to supercharging it for your health goals.

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) brings on Tanja Shaw, a seasoned Functional Health Coach, Kinesiologist, and weight loss expert dedicated to helping women overcome their struggles with food and achieve a healthy weight without obsession. Tanja owns Ascend Fitness + Lifestyle in Chilliwack, BC, and is the voice behind the popular Fit + Vibrant You Podcast.

Philip invited Tanja to share a unique perspective on mindset: the idea that mindset is NOT everything. This challenges the popular belief that mindset is everything. They explore the limitations of the “mind over matter” approach and advocate for a balanced strategy that integrates mental and physical health. You’ll learn how thoughts and emotions impact hormonal balance and discover practical techniques to shift your mindset.

Tanja brings a wealth of knowledge from her hands-on experience with functional lab testing, personalized wellness protocols, and mindset coaching. She helps her clients thrive by addressing not just what they do but how they think and what they believe about themselves and the world.

Find out why mindset isn’t everything and how combining it with an understanding of body science is key to not just achieving but LOVING your health results.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:44 Definition and relevance of "mind over matter" in health and fitness
7:19 Practical techniques for mindset shifts
22:58 Impact of thoughts and emotions on hormonal balance
33:27 Mindset strategies to change and improve stress
39:17 The benefits and disadvantages of having an optimism bias
44:05 Where is mindset alone insufficient
47:28 Predictive biomarkers in functional lab testing and their impact on mindset coaching
49:07 The role of outdoor activities in promoting mental and physical well-being
52:38 The question Tanja wished Philip had asked
53:18 Where to reach Tanja
53:45 Outro

Episode resources:

• Podcast: Fit + Vibrant You 

• Website: tanjashaw.com/

• Instagram: @tanja_shaw 

• Facebook: www.fb.com/tanjashaw 

Episode summary:

Navigating the interplay between mindset, health, and functional well-being is an art that has been profoundly discussed in the recent episode of Wits & Weights featuring Tanja Shaw. The conversation highlighted the importance of a balanced approach that aligns the mental and physical aspects of health, a concept that resonates deeply with listeners seeking a sustainable and healthy lifestyle. Tanja Shaw, with her extensive experience as a functional health coach and weight loss expert, brought to light the significance of understanding how our thoughts and emotions directly impact our hormones and overall physiological state. This connection emphasizes that achieving health and fitness goals requires more than sheer willpower; it involves a harmonious blend of mindset and actionable wellness strategies.

In a personal reflection, the host, Philip Pape, shared his transformation from an intense workout and macro tracking enthusiast to a more mindful health and fitness mentor. This shift in perspective is particularly relevant for women in midlife who are often seeking ways to balance determination with self-compassion. Morning energy levels, simplifying lifestyle modifications, and avoiding quick fixes were discussed as crucial factors in setting the stage for a long-term mindset shift and sustained vitality.

The episode further delved into the relationship between our thoughts, eating habits, and their physiological counterparts. Insights from clients and the potency of stress management techniques were shared, illustrating the transformative power of cultivating a balanced and optimistic mindset. The chapter on navigating life's challenges with optimism and realism stood out as a testament to the resilience we can harness even when faced with life's most difficult moments.

The discussion rounded out with a critical examination of the limitations of a mindset-focused approach. It underscored that altering our environment or circumstances might be necessary for genuine progress and that sometimes, our over-reliance on mindset can lead to ignoring our bodies' signals or staying in unhealthy situations. The role of lab tests and biomarkers in tailoring individual health strategies was also touched upon, reinforcing the idea that personalized care is essential for optimal well-being.

The episode ended with a poignant reminder that the journey to health is continuous, and there is no final destination. It is a day-to-day commitment to growth, self-improvement, and adaptation. This mindset of perpetual progression is what leads to true and lasting well-being. As we navigate our health journeys, it's essential to remember that balance, resilience, and a reality-checked optimism are our guideposts to a life of health and happiness.

The detailed insights shared by Tanja Shaw in this podcast episode provide a wealth of knowledge for anyone looking to enhance their understanding of how to align their mindset with their health goals effectively. By addressing the nuances of functional well-being and resilience, this conversation serves as a valuable resource for those seeking to optimize their health and embrace a life of vitality and strength.

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Transcript

Tanja Shaw  00:00

When we have a thought, we think oh like now it's an urge. Now it's a craving I must have the banana bread, but it's just a thought and it's such a simple way just to neutralize it. So if you don't feel always armed with a way to like rebuttal the thought or to replace the thought then simply just neutralizing it can be helpful.

Philip Pape  00:18

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The Whitson weights Podcast. Today, I'm excited to welcome Tanya Shaw, a seasoned functional health coach Kinesiologist and weight loss expert dedicated to helping women overcome their struggles with food and achieve a healthy weight without the obsession, Tanya and I met through podcasting. And she's coming on here to talk about mindset today. I'm very excited. She's the owner of ascend Fitness and Lifestyle in Chilliwack, British Columbia and the voice behind the popular fit and vibrant you podcast and that's fit the plus sign vibrant. You go follow it. I had the pleasure of being on that recently. So again, follow her show so you can check all of her great content out and I invite her on today we're going to take a different angle on mindset. The idea that mindset is not everything right? Despite the Pivi claims on motivational social media posts to get in the right mindset. Despite rarely telling you how to do this, many coaches and experts tend to over emphasize the importance of mindset alone. Yet, Tanya advocates for a balanced approach that integrates mental and physical health that we love when everything comes together. So today, we're going to explore the limitations of the mind over matter, mentality. And how combining mindset with an understanding of body science is key to not just achieving but really loving, and living with your health results for a long time to come. You'll even learn how thoughts and emotions affect our bodies, functions, especially hormones, some simple techniques to help you actually shift your mindset to better support your goals. Tanya brings tons of knowledge from her hands on experience with functional lab testing, personalized wellness protocols, and mindset coaching. She helps her clients thrive by addressing not just what they do, but how they think and what they believe about themselves and the world. Learn today why mindset isn't everything, and how combining it with an understanding of body science is key to not just achieving but loving the results. So Tanya, welcome to the show.

Tanja Shaw  02:41

Thank you, thank you so much for having me.

Philip Pape  02:43

So let's just get into the top level question. Here's what is mind over matter, really mean, you know, in the full context of the fitness and health that we're talking about.

Tanja Shaw  02:53

I love what you said about introduction there, Phillip about this idea of those binary thinking as black or white thinking. And social media is great for that. Like we love these topics of like so much out there, you know what progress not perfection, and if you believe that you can achieve it and all these kinds of things that we sometimes like this black or white approach is very binary way of thinking, and mindset really important. Like it really, really is. I think you have this experience, have experience with all your listeners have experienced about going to the gym and doing a workout. And then you kind of get to the point where you're done the workout. And the question is, are you done because your body is actually done? Or is it your mind is done? A you don't want to push yourself I need more. So mindset is really important in so many different areas. But it's not as simple as just being able to fix everything. When I first started in my health and fitness journey as a coach, I was back in 2007, my personal training business. And I was very much on like push hard push her push Harvey like intense workouts, macro tracking, we did low carb, we did all the things. And my clients would get really great results. But they were not able to stick with it. And they had this kind of on again off again relationship with food and it was up and they're, you know, in all the progress and it wasn't until 2015 When I realized that there's something big missing in my coaching programs, and a lot of coaching programs in the fitness industry, which is the mindset piece like how do we think differently? And then I kind of dove really hard into that and thinking like your mindset is everything and you see that on on Facebook as well mindsets, everything. But then you get to this point where Okay, I have this great mindset but my bias is functioning. And I think the biggest issue with mind over matter or like this idea that mindsets. Everything we can kind of will ourselves into things is that sometimes we end up and I see this so much more now that I'm working with women in midlife and beyond through that of hustle journey, that we can also have the tendency to not listen to some really important signals that our bodies are telling us that it's time to rest. Or we have this idea that it's just like oh, I can push push push to the point of burnout. At and to an extreme, if you're always like pushing yourself, we can actually bypass a lot of our emotional needs and when our body actually what we physically need, because we think we should be doing more, we think we should, we're not enough, we think we always need to have the hustle, the grind. And that eventually is going to lead to some of the burnout. And so mindset is absolutely important. But we also have to balance that with actually like supporting the body because they really also go both hand in hand. Another example is, you know, most of us have a pretty strong mindset first thing in the morning, when maybe not like first first thing in the morning, but after a cup of coffee, and a bit of journaling, or meditation or cuddling with your guests or whatever. Because we're rested, right. And then at the evening, this is what most people struggle with food and, and poor decisions. No, seven o'clock eight o'clock at night, because we're depleted. And so we also have to in order to also have a great mindset and and work on like the willpower or whatever we want to call that. You also need to really work on supporting your body and giving your body what your body needs. So that you can have that bandwidth, you can make those better decisions. Yeah, there's

Philip Pape  06:03

so much in there, it's like a spectrum is what I'm hearing that there could be this incongruency between your mind and body at any one time. And if we go too much in one direction, we tend to sacrifice the other you talked about being in the gym, maybe your mind is the weaker component in some cases, and you're giving up too quickly and your body is able to handle it, but your mind is not telling you to keep going. Conversely, maybe you're doing too much. And you have this tendency, like you said you don't listen to your body. You know, we talked on the show a lot about intuition versus data. And it doesn't have to be I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive. Like I think you can take data, you can take how you feel. And then you can push yourself, but then realize you're pushing yourself too far based on how you feel in the data. So I kind of love all of that. Also, you really spoke to me the morning energy thing, I was just thinking this morning, like you get to that peak point. And you're just excited like, Man, if I could feel this way all day, every day, I would just get more done than he could ever imagine. And then, you know, we're recording later in the day, which still have enough energy, but it starts to get where your voice gets worn down, your mind gets worn down your body. I workout in the morning. So like, of course, I'm amped up then. And by the end of the day, I'm just potentially dragging. Okay, so I just wanted to comment all that because I'm sure it's very relatable to folks. So then where does that take us next? Probably to how do we identify maybe that gap, or I collect data about ourselves so that we can listen to our body? Maybe we'll go there.

Tanja Shaw  07:28

Yeah, and I love your point there about this idea. Like it's not one or the other. It's it's really a spectrum. And we have to have both, because how often do we have this idea, we're like, you don't want to, you don't feel like going for a walk, right? Like how often you probably get that from yourself and also others that you work with, like I don't feel like doing something. But then you go and you feel so much better. And so that point like listening to your body is not necessarily helpful. That time because your bodies and your mind and your mind say like no, I don't want to go. But really, it's gonna be a better thing for you. You know, when we think about mindset, and changing your mindset, and overcoming limiting beliefs, and figuring this out for yourself, I think one thing that we really do want to have as humans is we want we like things to be really clear. We like things to be upset. Yep, we like things to be clear, we'd like things to be very fast. And we like things to be like, we'll have that certainty and that speed. And when it comes to changing your mindset or figuring this out, that's what we want. We're like, okay, so give me the five step process, what's the three, three things I need to do to get that, and what we're really building here, and this is a skill that we're gonna keep practicing for the long term is gonna serve us as learning how to have some wisdom. And that means not like reflecting on yourself building awareness, happy the inside reflection, like, you know, what's been going well, what's not been going well. So you can start to discern, like, what's working and what's not, and what's going to be the best steps for you. I think that's a really important thing. And this is one thing that you know, when it comes to the weight getting stronger, we lose the weight, everything we just want, like, Yeah, we love that clarity. We love the do this, and we get this. But that's not the way the body works. When it comes to the the mindset pieces and starting to learn, I think one of the best places to start, just like you do when you are trying to lose weight. And the first things we do for nutrition, is we document it. Like you start to build some awareness I think, for for change your mindset for becoming aware of these patterns, as a wonderful first thing to do is to sort of habits a little bit about build awareness, like what are you thinking? And usually our thoughts drive feelings and actions. And so sometimes we don't know what we're thinking, but then we can start to say like, well, what are the feelings and the actions that I might want to change the behaviors that I want change? And then start to question whether the thoughts that are behind those and what are the thoughts that are driving them? And that's a great place to start with actually starting to quietly it was hard to change things that we don't that we're not aware have, I mean you can do it by accident. But just like in your programs like this is why you measure like your you track food when you're because if you just have no idea what you're doing, it's really hard to make a choice about a better choice. And I think doing a same sort of audit with your way they're thinking can be really important. And really helpful as you start this journey as well. A simple thing to do is like one of the first tools that I use with my clients is we do a food s&p back like journaling. And so you write down because a lot of my clients come to me for weight loss, and we write down like the food that we're eating, but also like the thoughts about it, are you eating because you're hungry or eating because you are bored? Or you're telling yourself that this one little thing doesn't count are all starting in a Monday but starting to become aware of those thoughts. And as frustrating as it is, because a lot of our thoughts are like they tend to be quite repetitive, we tend to have the same patterns, the same kind of thought patterns that tend to derail us more and more often. It's actually not a bad thing, because although it's frustrating, because they seem too repetitive, it's also kind of good, because we only have usually like a handful of different kinds of thoughts that tend to be on replay and review feeding triggers that we need to work through.

Philip Pape  11:07

Yeah, so I love a couple things you said are a bunch of what you said there. So just kind of recap, my understanding is people are often looking for kind of methods or steps or a framework or an anatomy principles they're looking for exactly like 12345, like you said, and really, it's a skill, which requires a lot of internal reflection. And developing wisdom over time, basically pointed to the two very key things. One is awareness through some method of getting that awareness which some methods are incomplete that I've seen, you know, where you kind of alluded to it, you might track your food, you might track your lifting, you might even track your biofeedback. But if you don't then tie that to the thoughts that then drive the actions, you might change the actions, but it's not for the right reason or in the right way. And kind of gets you back in driving in circles. Reminds me of something I recently heard on the hidden brain. Dr. Judd, Brewer was on there, do you know that show I listen

Tanja Shaw  12:00

to the brain to you not always.

Philip Pape  12:03

I want him to happiness. So Dr. Brewer was on and I invited him on the show he's gonna come on the show. So he works at Brown in Rhode Island, Brown University. And he's an expert in cravings. And he was basically saying the same thing. He said, Look, one very simple way to break your addiction to anything is mindfulness and awareness of it, and what the thoughts are behind it. So what you're saying is very powerful for people listening, like what Tonya is suggesting we can get into specifics is anything that you're struggling with, maybe it's just you really love those baked goods. Next time you have a baked good, maybe just start writing about your thoughts through the process of the baked goods, you might find that that first bite is amazing. And it was totally worth it and embrace it. And then by the fourth muffin, maybe it's not the same experience. So possibly, maybe maybe not. Right. So okay, so then two things come from this as a questions. One is, I guess, any specifics on on how to do that, and that you would recommend, and maybe already said that with the journaling? And then I want to get into how do all these things then affect our body? You know, the effects of feelings and actions? How do they actually affect our bodies functions like hormones and things like that?

Tanja Shaw  13:09

Your comment there about the about fitness and everything like that, too. I think that was a great example. And you talked about mindfulness. And we were talking about mindfulness. And one thing I have noticed over and over again, with so many of my clients like 99% They say they love the muffin, or the cookie or whatever, but when they're actually eating it, they're not present. Like how often does that happen? But like we think about a with a lot of like most of my clients have, like, a really struggle with food and it's more of the mental emotional side of things. And so like yeah, like what to do, but we think about food, we love food, we prepare food we, for them, we're eating it, we're not present. And so it's such a like, when you think about that logically or like what like that makes no sense and yet we do it all the time. While we're eating it we're thinking that we shouldn't eat it while we're standing at the kitchen counter praying it's not happening or eating the crumbs. We're not fully present and one of the greatest tools just not even mindset pieces but if you start to really like actually eat the thing like when you're when those that proverbs like when you when you're walking walk when you're eating eat or Hooters unless something along those lines. When you're there, you'll notice one that sometimes quite often, you don't actually like the food like when you're honest with yourself you're like this is kind of crap. Like a Hershey's actually was listened to another podcast. I listened to one called the happiness lab as well. Kind of on the same lines as the Hidden brain. And she was talking about Hershey's Kisses. I think that's a great example. You send us we we only want the chocolate what the sweet if you actually mindfully eat a Hershey's Kiss you like this. It tastes like plastic. It's not good. And that could be a great thing because one of the things I think, again we have talked about like this binary thinking we have all these thoughts votes, you know that food should just be fuel and, you know, don't treat yourself with food your dog like almost like stupid like this one sided like nonsense. It's not helpful at all. But I think food can be like it should be ideally very pleasurable. And it's a wonderful pleasure, like I love food. And so one of the tools you could do is when specifically for eating is when you actually like slow down. And I'm not the first one who's told you that we slow down, you mindfully eat your food, generally a lot less, or at least you're more satiated, and your digestion so much better. You know, I work with I do lots of health testing and anti Alaba clients have digestive issues and stuff, and one of the first things we can do is just slow down and chew your food. I know your mom told you that you're, you know, someone told you that when a sick kid and it's so simple that we kind of like discard it and think like, oh, that's like, no need to like take these supplements and probiotics and all these little fancy pants things. But slowing down and chewing your food is amazing for your stomach acid and or your enzymes to digest your food. And you get so much more enjoyment out of it. Plus, we're supposed to eat when we eat or food, we're supposed to be in that relaxed state to actually promote digestion. So that's one thing there. But that was kind of a roundabout way. Obviously, they got caught there to actually change your mindset and your thoughts. Like we said, the first step is really starting to become aware of what they are, and starting to just think about what you're thinking. And I don't know if any other mammals or creatures can do that. But we can. And it's a pretty cool feature of humans. Sometimes it has its downsides. But, you know, yeah, I don't think my cats think about what they're thinking, like they're thinking about anything, but start to become aware of those thoughts that you have. And after that, like sometimes we think that the thoughts are so fast that we don't even recognize that they're thinking anything. I think we've all had that experience really well, somewhere in the pantry. At least I have anyway. And you've eaten something here. Like, I didn't think about that. And there was probably a thought, but sometimes it's so fast or so repetitive, that we're not sure it's there. You can ask yourself the question like what might have I been thinking, and that's really helpful just to sort of allow yourself to be wrong, because sometimes, we have this sort of perfectionist type tendencies, where we think we have to figure out like all the things and is not so allow yourself to be wrong, what might I be thinking, and then you can start to like when the best things to start with is just to neutralize the thought. If it's not a thought that you want to keep, you can say something like, and that's just a thought. Because when you say that, and that's just a thought it takes the power away from the thought itself. Like, for example, I have banana bread on the counter right now. I feel like oh, one piece of data, right, it's right there. I only have a little bit. And that's just a thought. Because when I just say like I have been adware on the counter, I'm kind of hungry, I should have some, I might have some advice ain't as good or bad, or better, off limits or anything. But let's say that's not my plan. And I had that, you know, I had that thought. And when we had that thought, we think oh, like now it's an urge. Now it's a craving I must have the banana bread, but it's just a thought. And it's such a simple way just to neutralize it. So if you don't feel always armed with a way to like rebuttal the thought or to replace the thought, then simply just neutralizing it can be helpful. Um, have you read the book soundtracks by Jon Acuff, but I know Jon Acuff I love his book soundtracks is probably one of the most recommended books, I have heard my clients, he recommends three questions. And I've started using this with my coaching as well. I used to have a slightly different method, but this was like super clear, it's like, is the thought helpful? Is it true? Is it kind? And if the answer is no to any of those questions, then it's a thought you want to replace. For example, let's say you're looking at yourself, I'd record a podcast this morning on body image and looking at ourselves naked in the mirror, let's say step of the shower, you look yourself in the mirror, and you say, Oh, dear God, I'm fat. Let's just say that. If you say that to yourself, you may feel defeated, you may feel like less than you may feel not enough, you might feel that stress response that we sometimes get is like we're not comfortable. And that thought might be true. Maybe you are overweight, like me. And that's just a neutral word. Like maybe you're having more fat you want to have, but is it kind? Is it helpful right now? And if the answer is like so kind, I mean, you can decide that's like, I guess a relative question that can be completely neutral. When my son was little, he would like, call people he would always like pick up my belly. And, you know, call me chubby, even though like, I don't have like him on Jacob. But for him, it wasn't a bad thing. It was just like looking at like, a little belly fat. And there were you like it was a negative wasn't positive, it just was. So you can decide whether it's kind or not. But if it's not kind of not helpful, then that's a thought that you can start to replace, say anything was said in things like, I'm so out of shape. It might be true, maybe you are in a shape. But is that thought helpful right now. And maybe it's somewhat helpful if it's going to spur an action, but then we probably don't want to keep repeating that thought over and over again. I'm so sad because the repeating pot and so things like let's say for an urge or craving if you say to yourself like this one thing doesn't count or I'll start again tomorrow, that sort of quiz kind of common phrases that we say quite often. And it's not true, it's not helpful or, or in kind is kind of neutral. And then you can start to replace those thoughts. And the best thing is just as you start to think of the thoughts that could be more true, kinder, helpful. So the example of looking yourself in the mirror, not liking what you see you're thinking you're fat you To say, like, if I have a body, like that's a more neutral thought, or I'm in the process of taking care of myself, or I'm committed like, or this body has like gone through a lot, and I'm committed to taking care of her, those are all things you can say. Same thing with caribou and those apples now, but like, I'm still at a shape, you can say, like, and like, and I'm in the process of taking care of myself, and I'm committed to focusing what I can do today. Those are all things that we can do to help. Same thing, like, even like when you're really like, you know, super tired. Sometimes you say things like, I'm so tired right now, which might be true. And maybe it's helpful so that you can go take a nap or to go rest. Sometimes when you we just like reinforce the fact that we're tired, we feel more tired. And sometimes you don't need to, and we can't take a break, or we should or maybe your dog that tyres is telling yourself that we're tired. And that's where that is a bit nuanced, because you Is it your mind telling you thought or is your body telling you that and that's where we need that reflection. And so to have some honesty with ourselves as well,

Philip Pape  21:00

so much there, so, so much that I'm just listening to you. Because this is enjoyable. It's like you're giving me a podcast here on all these wonderful tools. I'm trying to work my way through some of the things I got out of this. First of all, my wife makes the best banana bread. So I'll tell you, I eat a banana every day before my workout and the ones that start to spoil it goes into a banana bread pile. And I fully embrace even her banana bread. But anyway, I love the thoughts because some of the mindful techniques I've learned in the past regarding like breath, work and whatnot. And mindfulness involve looking at your emotions and thoughts go by right as objective things that are either floating by in a river or they're flying by in the air. And it kind of reminded me of that where either, like you said, you either reframe it, or make it neutral or convert that thought into a positive action, which is they're all great options. Because you can't help the thought comes in your brain. It's there. It's happened. It's an HSA, okay, what do I do about it going forward? It is funny, because I was just, I had moments of self consciousness all the time, like I recorded a video on my gym, for my community to show them how to work out and do certain things. And I'm constantly evaluating my own body in that video, right? We do that all the time about ourselves, but then we can say, okay, and this is what's going to happen or, and you know, I'm being helpful to the people watching this and it doesn't matter, you know, you can definitely replace your thoughts. You also mentioned the Food is fuel kind of dilemma where sometimes we like it's a pity statement as well, like a cliche, well, Food is fuel. And I've heard both sides of that argument, successfully framed, where, you know, the one side is, well, because food is fuel, we can we can use that to drive, like better choices in our food. On the other hand, you said if it's only fuel kind of takes away, the enjoyment and the human experience part of the food, that I'm trying to gain weight, and I get to the end of the day, if I'm quote unquote, a little behind on my energy intake, it's like, do I think of that as fuel and just stuff my face with gummy bears? Or do I? Do I like you kind of reframe my experience with food, so that it's enjoyable, and it's serving me. But again, I'm traveling as well here, but I love all of these tools that people can use to neutralize their thoughts. So thank you for that. With regard to those thoughts, how do they then impact our body beyond that? Because I think that's the next piece of it like physiologically, hormonally how they impact us.

Tanja Shaw  23:14

And I'm going to say that in like 30 seconds, but two things, I want you to recap at ESA two, one, I love your word, the use of the word. And I think that's really powerful. And sort of takes away that either or, because you're like even critiquing your body like yeah, like, it's okay, if you're like, you don't love every single inch of your body, or maybe you like, and that's like, that's a perspective. And yes, you can work on that all kinds of too. But it's okay. And that's not stopping you. It's like, and you're going to do it to serve your community. And I also want to just double back on what you just said that we can't control our thoughts. And you're right, like, we can't, like our first thoughts. I've had terrible thoughts sometimes like that. I'm like, Oh my gosh, okay, like, I need to go see somebody, I shouldn't be thinking those. But that's the human experience, we're going to all things that will We will never tell other people because it's just like horrible things. And so it doesn't mean you're a bad person, it doesn't mean that they have to act on these things. Like, can you imagine, I mean, I've been at the top of NFE, as you've ever been had this phrase be on top of a high bridge or say, jump, right? Yeah, you're not gonna jump, and then you got kind of freaked out because you're like, but I could and then it's just a thought. That's all it is. And they're just words, they're just sentences. So I think that's super helpful. And also that you can do all the mindset work and you can work on this and uncover like, you know, the subconscious patterns and limiting beliefs that drive a lot this and everything. And there is no place that we're going to get to where all of our thoughts are like helpful and kind. And you know, because when I see all the time is that we like a perfection like let's say with eating, but then we have perfection with our thoughts and we think we're doing it wrong because these negative thoughts or these diety thoughts come back again like it's okay. You seem to have the tools to be able to work through them. Okay, so how do they affect your hormones? So I really got into looking at hormones digestion, detoxification, energy production, nervous system, immune function on my clients about two, three years ago. And the reason why I got into that is because I was doing a lot of the foundational basics, I still think the foundations are like, where's that for most of us, we're just not doing them consistently, like moving your body, like sleeping water, balanced meals, like bringing joy, less stress, and bliss. But for so many clients, they were doing that they're having an awesome, like breakthroughs in their mindset. But they still are stuck with results, like they just were like, still, that just have issues, they are like, maybe not losing weight. So weight loss resistance, and like, and they legit were like, doing the things right, the work is essential. And so I want you to undercover, like what's going on, like, what's really going on underneath the surface. So that's what I got into just learning how to actually test these things and look at labs and stuff. And labs are wonderful, they're fun, they're a great tool. They're not like, gonna solve everything there, they definitely have their limitations as well. But it's actually really been really kind of neat for a lot of my clients to also see the repercussions of their mindset, their habits or lifestyle on paper. And sometimes that's been like an extra, I say, like, almost like an extra motivating factor. Because sometimes we see these things like oh, like, intuitively like, or theoretically, we know this, that until we went through directly. We know for example, you know, if I don't take breaks throughout the day, or I don't manage my mind, I'm gonna be like, stressed out. And then you look at the cortisol levels on paper, you're like, Oh, well, that's what's happening or digestion, that sort of thing to

26:36

me, my name is Lisa. And I'd like to Big shout out to my nutrition coach Philippi. With his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity, I want to be healthy, active and independent. Until the day I die, he introduced me to this wonderful Apple macro factor, I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it, and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in. So the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is, and the easier it is to lose weight, when it's presented to you like he presents it, it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunker guide. And that really helped me so thank you. But

Tanja Shaw  27:20

I think the biggest thing that we need to focus on, I never really gave it I think the credit deserved. And I even don't like talking about it, because I think it's so like no one likes listening to it. But stress is stress and stress management. And I hate the word stress management to like, it's just feels like managing your stress, like your portfolio. And you're like you're

Philip Pape  27:39

too technical. Yeah, it does. But

Tanja Shaw  27:42

it's such an important thing. And the thing is, is that from a physical perspective, when we, a lot of us, a lot of people have really like ongoing negative conversations with themselves. They're hard on themselves, they focus on the negative. You know, I've been just like, I don't know if it's true or not, but like you have conversations with people, like, oh, how are you busy. And you know, we talk and then we like talk about how it's raining all the time. And it's just like, there's just like, just like this, like negative. And a lot of us like we're in our heads all the time with this negative, like the negative energy and negative soundtrack that we keep repeating ourselves. And from a experience perspective, it doesn't feel like it just doesn't feel good to have that. But then it also impacts how our body functions. Because it creates this low grade stress on our body, or we just don't feel safe. And that can impact our cortisol levels. So what I usually see at the beginning is cortisol levels go up. And then eventually the cortisol levels go down. Cortisol and the stress response tends to be like the first domino that affects everything else. You know, we talked about how like, all diseases begin in the gut. And I really think that stress causes the gut issues that causes everything else like I think it's that's how those causes gut dysfunction, blood sugar dysregulation. I mean, on a simple date, we talked about blood sugar and regulating blood sugar with food a lot. But cortisol effects like that regulate blood sugar to cortisol is gonna spike blood sugar levels. And if you have cortisol spikes, because you are, like, always on edge or not giving yourself that self care or whatever her are talking really to yourself, always thinking you're not enough, then you're going to have these hormonal imbalances and stress is the body's priority. Because from a survival perspective, the buyer doesn't prioritize weight loss for one thing ever. That's like the last thing. There's no benefit for a survival perspective for us to lose weight up until like last 3040 50 years like it. So that's why like, the body doesn't produce reproduction. And so when stress levels are up or you're not producing, like, you're having imbalances there, that's where we see lots of like, a lot of women really struggle with menopause and sex hormones at a time or the perimenopause transition, which is a whole Yeah, that can be fun. Because the Bidens and prioritize fertility, the body prioritizes stuff Ask management and protection for yourself. And so when we have these negative self talk, just like just being mean to ourselves kind of stuff, and it's shocking, when I had two challenges or certain coaching programs, women sort of start to like write down and become awareness, aware of the thoughts that they're saying to themselves. It's awful. Like, it's the kind of stuff you're like, Oh, I was like, Oh, we don't do that anymore. Like, there's enough education, about about self talk. And with the stuff that they write down, it's terrible. And in some of the stuff I I think about too, like when I write down, like, oh, my gosh, like, I gotta, I gotta check that, like, it's just not helpful. It's not kind it's not, I mean, it's not true either. And that creates a stress response in the body. And then I think it's so important to that we really do focus on both like, the mindset and also the by science, because what happens is, sometimes we have like, a stressor, like the mood thoughts, whatever. And that creates, let's say, gut dysfunction, blood sugar regulation, can't sleep, what happens when you like, have like, you're in pain all the time, you have inflammation, you can't sleep, you tend to also make poor choices. And so you're still at school that's like that cycle of, it's just like this never ending cycle of like, I'm stressed, I make more choices, because I'm poor choices and stress. And stress also, is not an emotion, we often say like, I feel stressed. It's a physical response that often happens to emotions. So if you feel very fearful, or if you feel like, you know, panicky or you have ruminating negative thoughts, there's a stress response there. The stress response is also to do sometimes, like things like blood sugar regulation, gotten infections, it can be due to like food intolerances. If you're not sleeping well enough, if you're eating too much too little exercise is a wonderful is a stressor. And I see this as a most of my clients actually, that I work with, probably could like, I don't think they over exercise. But there is a tendency for some people to overdo the exercise too, because we want to like burn the fat and lose the weight. And it's just so counterproductive when we overdo it. Yeah,

Philip Pape  31:53

everything you're saying makes total sense. And I think the lens of stress being potentially the root cause of everything is, can be a very helpful one, right? Because then we can kind of tie, tie that to what we're doing and very specific things. For example, you know, the other night, I ate out later than usual and had a few drinks. And I rarely drink these days. And so what happened, my HRV went out of whack, my resting heart rate was up, temperature was up for the night, I want an aura ring. So you get all this cool data to kind of validate what you know, is be the case when you wake up in the morning and feel five degrees warmer than you normally do. Maybe that's a women feel that out for hot flashes, I don't know. But you feel that and you're like, Okay, that's a form of stress. And now that's going to have a cascading effect for the rest of the day, especially if you didn't get any more sleep than you normally did. And so I like how you mentioned, pretty much everything we do that's kind of beyond the body's normal capacity, in some sense. Food intolerances like that's a I'll say uncontrollable thing other than the putting the food in your mouth, of course, but that's causing a stress, overtraining, I just mentioned alcohol, you know, and all this is tied, like you've said, the hormones, you got cortisol, you got the HPA axis, you've got all this other complicated stuff, we don't have to necessarily dive into that makes everything else harder than fat loss, right? And everything else so and sleep, poor sleep cause poor stress, poor stress? Mostly, exactly. So it's good to just understand that and people are like, oh, there we go, again, talking about stress. But it's like you could do all the other things, and they're just going to be so much harder. Just take care of yourself. But I know it's not that easy now, but it can be Yeah, because you got Tony here to share her wisdom. So what are some things we can do? Unless there's more to explore on the physiology itself? Well, what are some things that we can do to, I guess, change our mindset that then affects our stress, so that we can improve our stress? Because that's what we're trying to link with all of this? Totally.

Tanja Shaw  33:41

Yeah. And to that stress your point, she like thoughts and things are simple. But I also want to recognize and appreciate that a lot of people's lives, it's a lot easier than just like, it's not easy, like, a lot of people have, like, have real excuses, that are not like, Oh, I'm watching Netflix all day. I don't have time, like people have real things happening to him. They have stressors in the life of people have dealing with difficult relationships, or dealing with deaths or dealing with aging parents or dealing with 1000s who are having issues with health. Like, there's so much and I think one of the most important things is that we just take that all or nothing thinking out a way of like, because sometimes we get this like we feel so defeated, you know, because like life can be really hard sometimes. And you're like, well, what's the point? Or what's the point? That's one thing if I and that's where I want to like not so much about one of my like statements by isms, I say all the time is to make the goals of your life match to make your goals match the reality of your life. And if you're like not sleeping well because of whatever reasons, and sometimes there's like it's a real thing for some people have like kids, some people have, just like so many different things can go on, but do what you can. And by practicing talking about the mindset here practicing that mindset that I'm gonna show up and do the best I can with what I have with where I'm at with what's going on. That mindset is going to serve you no matter what's happening in your life down the road because It's like, I like riding my bike, my road bike and my mountain bike. But when I bike uphill, it's a lot of work like you're pushing hard, and you're not going very fast, because you're riding up a hill. And sometimes we're riding up a hill, like just your external circumstances hard. But you're putting in the work, you're doing the effort and as like, best as you can. And then when you know that hill like becomes flat again, which it will eventually, and you'll have that strength, you'll have that mindset shift that you've made, that I'm going to do the best I can with what I have. And I think that's going to really serve you. So I want encourage those that with it are who are dealing with hard things, because there are seasons in life that are just are truly, truly hard. And it's so wonderful that you can practice that. To your question there about that how to like what to do. So that's like, yeah, we'll get really all in I think mindset. Yeah, I think it really starts like going back to just also our, our thoughts about ourself, like, you can also and because every time like if you have that negative self talk like that stressor, when a while back, I was about a year and a half ago, I did this little journal entry. And it was just a random journal entry, a practice that I wrote down on one side of the paper, calm and happy attractors or builders. And I put down on the other page, common happy detractors. And I wrote down all the things that kind of so calm is like my kind of antidote to stress. If I'm joyful, and calm, I'm usually less stress. And because it can be different from person to person, so identify what the stresses are in your life. And for me, it's things like, you know, rushing. And I have a tendency to be really hard on myself to always be pushing and like wanting to do more, and I have a wonderful brain that has tons of ideas, which is fantastic. But after doing this now for was it 2024, I think I've been an entrepreneur since 2007. So while like, there's some burnout, like there can be some burnout, if you're like, if you keep having this, like I need to push it need to grow, I need to grow. And it's like for so for me personally, that's a bit of a stressor. So I think the stressors that in your life are going to be individual, and to say, take some time write down, like, what are the things that are adding one of the things that I bring joy with things are like, helping me like stay grounded, maybe things like your walks, I have three cats, which I would love, like, you know, spend time with my cats and go for a walk recording in a neighborhood, all those kinds of things are the add to my life, they keep me more calm and grounded. And then what are the things that are causing the stresses, some things we can't control, or if we did change them, there'll be a really big consequence that we may not be ready for. For example, if you have an aging parent, that's like you're really age a caregiver, you can choose not to, like that's a choice, that that's, there's a consequence of that. And so, although it's a choice, we have to really respect like that might not be the best choice and you have might have some values. But even with that, maybe it's setting boundaries and things like that, too. But I think the best thing for that is to be individualized for yourself, like what are the things and how can I give myself you know more things that are kind of recharging me and giving me that recovery and less, not even less things all the time is that it's just I love the word balance. I don't think balance is really realistic or a goal that really getting to you but it's about just trying not to be get totally off balance where you have all these stressors and not enough. And a lot of the stressors that we have on our ourselves. It's this perfectionism it's the thinking that we should do everything having 37 things to do on our to do list knowing getting done 10 And then feeling more failure than like thinking that even thinking like, you know, we're behind that we're not not like all those are stressors, and sorry to pay attention to them and see what else we can do and reframe that because it can really serve us and as I speak to this podcast, I'm speaking directly to myself to

Philip Pape  38:46

know how you hear you.

Tanja Shaw  38:49

Yeah, and I'm like, I know,

Philip Pape  38:51

ya know, there's so much good there. You said that people have real things in their life. I mean that in the way I've also phrased in passes, like life is life, life is going to exist. It's like Christmas is gonna come on December 25. Whether you budget for life is gonna happen. It's an In fact, that's the norm. There's the idea of this smooth sailing, you know, everything's routine all the time, you could eat like a bodybuilder. 100% of the time, because life is perfect is rare for anybody. So you mentioned the all or nothing thinking and matching the goals to reality of your life. My mind started going to stoicism when you got into doing with the best with what you have, and taking care of what you can control. But what I really loved was your analogy of a hill. Sometimes you're riding up the hill and it builds resilience. And then that got me thinking about optimism bias. So I wanted to ask you about this thought of. So a lot of people told me in the past, Oh, you're so positive, or you know, almost like rose colored glasses like Pollyanna about certain things. And when I was younger, I saw that as a negative Now I fully embrace it because not only has it served me but also I think the evidence shows that when people have an optimism bias whether it's natural or they learn Learn it, rather than falling on, like disappointment like people think you will, if you're too optimistic about things, it tends to drive you to do something different in the face of whatever's happening. I mean, what are your thoughts about optimism bias? Because you said, dealing with hard things, doing the best with what I have, when somebody is facing a really terrible situation that they can't control? Like you said, maybe it's a death, maybe they've become a single parent, maybe it's like you said, a caregiver, just something pretty tough. That life set your way? How do you in that moment, and maybe it's not an MO and maybe you need to process and then a later moment, move forward with this optimism or doing the best with what you have? What What are your thoughts on that?

Tanja Shaw  40:40

Yeah, I think that's why we're support can be really helpful for one like, I think that's one thing that's massive, whether it was a counselor or coach or something, but to have someone to walk through tough times with, I think the only downside, not the only because, again, like, it's really easy to look at things like very binary, and everything is very nuanced. And very, listen, we need to have the wisdom, I think what's perceived as the negative to be optimistic, is that you might bypass some of the things that need to be worked through, because we kind of skipped through them, I have done this, and I am now getting a lot more therapy to work through some things. Because I would always like I would resolve problems, I would redirect, I would go to the gym, I would work out I like change my seat, I would do all these things. But I think that for me, there are some things that are going on that I because I sort of kind of skipped over them without ever reflecting on some of the like, the things that the limiting beliefs and like the triggers and things that and so this is my experience. They come up more now. And they're more bigger and louder. And they're like, because I skipped over them. But you can still have be focusing like, I don't think optimism and focusing on like, I don't think it means that you're bypassing the reality of life. I don't think you're gonna be like, oh, like my spouse left me, well, let's like, what an opportunity to be, like, you know, like, no, like, you can grieve and you can also, you know, work through things. So I think that, in general, like, if we had to choose between, like looking for the negative and everything, and looking for the positive and everything and seeing what we can do, and focusing what we see, I think I think that is the better choice. With the understanding, that doesn't mean that we're going to be happy all the time. Or that if we're having like, that we're bypassing our emotions, and we're not feeling like the things that are also meant to be felt that sometimes we can kind of that are like that dealing with bad emotions, we don't want to feel them, I don't like feeling them. I hate feeling them. And I've like bypass them and repress them for long enough that they're surfacing a lot more now. And so I think there's a, again, it's kind of almost like, I don't know, if I've been like circling the question or actually getting to it or not, but it's this idea that it's not one or the other. And it's not like you're I don't think what you're saying is that you are positive all the time. And you like, only look at the bright side, and you never like recognize the reality of like, that things are also hard or people feel you can grieve and be sad, all those kind of things to

Philip Pape  43:07

agree. Yeah, no, yeah, for sure. There's a nuance there, that I was relating to what you had said about the hard things are going to happen, you're gonna acknowledge them, you may reflect on them, process them, and you want to move forward in some way that is dealing with it. And taking advantage of that resilience, you get through that process in moving forward, because you know, your life might be harder than someone else's. That is just reality. Now that we know that let's go forward, but not again with rose colored glasses. And you did mention one of the thing about you called it balance and then kind of stepped back and said, Well, you know, because the word balance is so can become cliche. And I guess I'll use the word bias, like in a good way we can bias things toward things that serve us in our life. So it's kind of like you're putting your thumb on the scale, and saying, Look, let me just add in the things kind of like additive nutrition, but additive self care

Tanja Shaw  43:55

exactly, I think is really, really a great way of looking at it. And that gets us away from that kind of all or nothing thinking or is one or the other and everything like that, too. Yeah.

Philip Pape  44:03

Yeah. No. So now, like in your experience, right? So we talked about mindset. We alluded to early on that mind over matter. It's kind of this cliche thing, but where is mindset alone? not sufficient? And I'm looking for a more nuanced answer than just, well, you got to train and eat well, and all that we know all that. Like, let's just assume we know that piece. But where's mindset alone? not sufficient?

Tanja Shaw  44:28

Yeah, I think I think this is necessary go back to original part. Is that how it can override SLS into our bodies as well? I think that's where we started the conversation. That's such a great way to bring it back. I see it so much through these pressures that we have on ourselves to like to achieve to strive to, you know, to push are never enough. We can't rest. We feel guilty a lot. And we can mindset our way sometimes to doing more but then sometimes the answer is changing our circumstance. As well changing what we're doing. And the other thing is like, I look at like mindset environment as kind of two things. And let's talk about like fact food and fitness and stuff. Like, if I had a bowl of m&ms on my desk right now I can mindset my way through it and be like, No, I'm not gonna get the m&ms. I really love m&ms. And I'm that great. But if you have a bowl like peanut m&ms Right here, or the, you know, the next bowl, like the peanut butter and the peanut ones, and the chocolate ones, I'd probably eat them. So simple thing to do with your environment is to just change. Now, take the assets off the table. Now think about it. But sometimes we try to like let's say, like, you have a list of 37 things to do. And you can mindset your way through it and be like, well, you know, I can chunk it down, I can just like focus on doing the things like doing the best I can. Or you can make your list down to three and deciding to do three things instead. So sometimes, we think by focusing too much on the mindset and not acknowledging the environment and the circumstance, we can maybe have to work too hard to try to reframe what we need to do. Let's say you're in a bad relationship. You can mindset your way through it and be like, you can do all the work. But maybe sometimes the relationships change like you. And that's I think, sometimes when we look at things like, and this is why I love and I hate social media is that we love these like dichotomous way of thinking where it's like, yeah, mindsets, everything or like, blah, blah. And then we get all the likes and shares. It's like so Hossam. But if it's simple, it's not always sometimes true. Not always true, though.

Philip Pape  46:32

Yeah, two things come to mind. I love that you, on one hand said we could use our intelligent brain and mindset to prevent using too much mindset. So to speak, like, we can get smart about it and intelligent and be efficient, or whatever the phrase you want to use of creative, you know, come around the problem and say, Well, I have these 20 things I think I have to do. But let's narrow it down to three, we can delegate delete this that. Before we even get to that. The other thing that comes to mind is, you know, the habits and behaviors we create through these practices over time, kind of eliminate the need for that mindset in your way through things as well, right? Because you've gotten to the point where now your body is almost taken over with the muscle memory or the mindset that's just ingrained in the back of your brain and a different part of your brain now. That's just what comes to mind for me. Yeah. Okay. So I know, we have like, we have like 10 minutes left, there's a whole bunch of things I would want to touch on. This was an interesting one that I thought of with you here. Is you have that background in functional lab testing. I wonder, is there any? Are there any biomarkers or lab results that predict or influence or associated with mindset changes? And I don't know if you know what I mean by that, you know, to tailor to people from their lab work?

Tanja Shaw  47:48

Yeah, and there's nothing I know, there's nothing that specifically there because the body is we offer I look, for example, cortisol levels and the cortisol patterns with a lot that's influenced by so many different things mindset being. And so I think, and whether it's that or like, I literally love functional, I love functional testing, I think it's can be really targeted, it can be wonderful to get like three protocols for each person. You tell us based on like me. So that's how you feel for somebody. It's like, are you sleeping well? How's your digestion? You're talking about your apps that you use, like your ring and stuff like that, too. Like those will tell you a couple things as well. I'm not familiar with them. I actually have no tracking. I track my food right now and the tracking phase. But I have like no wearable trackers. I have like a retirement Apple Watch about a year ago. I'm like done. So I just I have my Timex watch that's about it right now. Because to me, honestly, not to say that they're bad or good. But that was one of those calm and happy detractors is I was starting to like try to go to do certain exercises cuz I knew it would like burn more calories or walk a certain distance as like, I still want to do that. Like I don't. And I also didn't want my any text messages or phone calls on my phone virus either. So I love it. Yeah,

Philip Pape  49:00

I mean, that sounds like a form of self care for you've made that choice of these things tend to add stress. You're also big with the outdoors, right outdoor activities, hiking or paddleboarding? I think I love it all.

Tanja Shaw  49:12

That's a problem. I love it all.

Philip Pape  49:14

Well, just tell me about like, like, I just want to know. So the audience learns a little bit about you maybe tie those experiences into how you integrate your mental physical health. Give people a vision of like being outside doing one of those activities.

Tanja Shaw  49:26

I still love it. And like I alluded to, I don't do everything well, like I think a lot of the times we have the knowledge. And for me, I think because I've kind of coached myself for so long. It's been kind of got through things, but now I'm getting a little more. Yeah, working with a therapist to work through some things that I have not the patterns that I'm not able to solve my own. And I think that's excited about this process. Like it's been good so far. But I find it everyone has their own thing. But for me being in nature and is ah, sometimes I don't know if I'm running away from like, the To Do lists, or writing towards nature, but I spent a lot of time like we do lots of backpacking. And it's like an all inclusive vacation because you've already like, packed all your stuff. He's carrying you back. And I will go into, like, last year, I didn't think I did five like multi day hikes. And there was never cell phone service. I use shut off like, and what I love about it is that you hike for long enough that you're tired, like, we hike for quite a few hours, you're carrying this backpack, which is usually way too heavy to carry too much stuff. You get to camp, and then I just like I sit there and I stare at the ocean or wherever I am, or the mountains or whatever, or hours. And the time goes by I don't. It's not like I'm trying to meditate. I just sit there. I mean, it's like body calm. It's the most talked about, like stress levels, it's like the most wonderful feeling like everything is just so it's so good. And then the cool thing to what happens is like we did this one hike, my son and I last year, we did a three day hike. And in Washington, it was actually in the Olympic National Forest, which is just beautiful. And the hike wasn't that hard. So it had like, probably like six or seven hours, just like sit and stare at the ocean every day. And that's all he read. And I just did that. But then after that I had like, it just gave me such clarity so much. I feel like I felt like all these ideas were coming to me by like day three of just, like just downloads, it was just such a great experience. So more of that in my life, like more adventures more in prioritizing that because we often so like, had this idea what success looks like, you know, it's like often like it's the growth, it's like, the income and all that awesome too. But it's a good question like, who are we measuring? Like, what's the what's your misery? Sick? And, and same thing with like, with body to, you know, sense who you're supposed to? Like, why do you want that? Like, truly, why do you want that? And it's just sometimes good to question those kind of things. Because I think sometimes we can push ourselves and sometimes lose sight of the things that we actually want and which is often how we want to feel.

Philip Pape  52:05

Sure, yeah, well, the hustle, getting so zoned in on a single mode. You made me want to go camping again. It's been a couple of years. Okay, you're right. It's so like when you're disconnected even for a day. It's incredible how you become get into that more primal state of just over and around nature, you're going to sleep with the sun. It's just as nice experience. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. So all right. I mean, we covered a lot of stuff here today. And hopefully people got some wonderful ideas and some unique perspectives here on mindset on reframing and so many other things. Is there anything that you wished I had asked? And if so, what is your answer?

Tanja Shaw  52:42

I can't really think about, I was actually thinking with this question, because I don't think so. But I think the biggest one I wanted to circle back to the biggest kind of point is that there, I noticed. So try that it's a journey, but it really is, and there is no place for you arrive. And I think that's the biggest mistake that we get to do is we have like these ups and downs, but we have the downs, we feel like we're doing it wrong. And it's so not true. We don't arrive at something that we're gonna keep living into working on it daily, moment by moment. And I think that's a beautiful thing. I

Philip Pape  53:15

agree. There is no place for you to arrive. I love it. Love it. We're gonna leave it at that. And I want people to know where they can reach you, Tanya, where can they learn more about you and learn about your work?

Tanja Shaw  53:25

Yeah, thank you. So the best is probably the podcast, the fit and vibrant podcast. So as I said at the beginning, it's fit and then plus vibrant. And then why spelt? So you spelled y o u. And then my website is Tanya shot.com tnjshw.com. And then there's a links everything else do.

Philip Pape  53:44

Alright, so the fit and environment you podcast and Tanya show.com. We'll put those in the show notes. It was really a pleasure. I thought it was a super like natural conversation. We covered a lot of very interesting things I always learn and it was a pleasure seeing you again, Tanya. Yeah,

Tanja Shaw  53:57

thanks so much for having me.

Philip Pape  54:00

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