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Philip Pape 5/14/24 Philip Pape 5/14/24

Ep 172: The Top 15 Reasons NOT to Start a Diet Right Now (If You Want Sustainable Fat Loss)

Have you ever wondered what’s sabotaging your fat loss? Could it be one of these common scenarios? Should you start your fat-loss diet now? Philip breaks down the roadblocks to achieving your fat loss goals. He explores the top 15 reasons why dieting may not be the best decision right now. He highlights a range of scenarios that can hinder your fat loss efforts, emphasizing the need to address these factors before starting a calorie deficit.

Have you ever wondered what’s sabotaging your fat loss? Could it be one of these common scenarios? Should you start your fat-loss diet now?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) breaks down the roadblocks to achieving your fat loss goals. He explores the top 15 reasons why dieting may not be the best decision right now. He highlights a range of scenarios that can hinder your fat loss efforts, emphasizing the need to address these factors before starting a calorie deficit. From high stress levels and poor sleep quality to inadequate nutrition and inconsistent training, each reason is thoroughly dissected to guide you toward sustainable fat loss. Philip also emphasizes the importance of mental health, supportive environments, and life events that can influence your success in a dieting phase. He discusses considerations such as hormonal imbalances, nutrient deficiencies, and significant life transitions, providing a holistic view of the potential challenges you may encounter on your weight loss journey. He encourages you to assess your current circumstances, manage stressors, and have contingency plans ready to navigate challenges effectively.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 Intro
3:00 High stress levels
4:00 Low sleep quality
5:03 Poor nutrition
8:58 Inconsistent training
10:44 Injury or illness
12:23 Pregnancy or breastfeeding
13:45 Prioritizing mental health
15:58 Unsupportive environments
17:07 Underlying hormonal imbalances
18:13 Nutrient deficiencies
19:02 Upcoming major life event
21:30 History of eating disorders
23:13 Period of intense training
25:14 Significant life transition
27:20 Medication side effects cause weight gain
31:28 Outro

Episode resources:

Watch this FREE video on how to setup MacroFactor for body recomp and try MacroFactor FREE with my code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Episode summary:

Embarking on a fat loss journey often conjures images of strict dieting and intense exercise regimens. However, this episode of the Wits and Weights podcast suggests that we may need to pivot our approach to achieve sustainable results. Philip Pape, emphasizes that managing stress, improving sleep quality, and navigating life transitions are pivotal elements before even considering caloric restriction.

It's evident that chronic stress can be a formidable enemy in the battle against excess weight. Stress hormones like cortisol, when produced in excess, can not only lead to energy conservation and a decreased metabolic rate but also make sticking to a diet even more challenging. By incorporating simple daily practices such as meditation, walking, or other stress-relief techniques, one can foster a conducive environment for weight loss that also supports mental well-being.

Sleep is another cornerstone of effective weight management often overshadowed by dietary and exercise considerations. Poor sleep can significantly disrupt the balance of hunger hormones, leading to increased cravings and a greater struggle to maintain a caloric deficit. Adopting a consistent sleep schedule and enhancing sleep hygiene practices are not mere lifestyle adjustments but essential strategies in fortifying one's fat loss efforts.

Furthermore, the podcast delves into the intricacies of nutrition, underscoring the significance of a balanced diet that is rich in both macro and micronutrients. It is not merely about the caloric intake but the quality and composition of the diet that influences satiety, mental clarity, and gym performance. Integrating nutrient-dense foods, lean proteins, and high-fiber options into one's diet can avert nutritional deficiencies that could otherwise lead to health complications.

As for training, the podcast reinforces the importance of consistency and adherence to a regimen that includes resistance training and cardiovascular exercises. Such practices are instrumental in preserving muscle mass and ensuring the metabolism remains active throughout the fat loss phase. A tailored and consistent workout program remains a pillar in the architecture of successful weight management.

In discussing the effects of life transitions on dietary adherence, it's highlighted that significant changes such as moving, job shifts, or alterations in family dynamics can pose substantial obstacles. The podcast advocates for the adoption of realistic goals and strategic planning, including diet breaks and contingency plans, to address the challenges posed by these life events.

Lastly, the episode underlines the importance of a supportive environment, proper management of underlying health conditions, and optimal timing when embarking on a diet. It is evident that a holistic approach, which takes into account various aspects of one's lifestyle, is more likely to result in lasting fat loss.

This detailed exploration into the less-discussed facets of weight loss provides listeners with a broader understanding of what it truly takes to embark on a successful and sustainable fat loss journey. By shifting focus to these foundational elements, individuals can better prepare themselves for the demands of a calorie deficit and, ultimately, achieve their health and fitness goals.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

If you're anxious to get started with your diet so you can lose fat. Hold that thought, because today I'm revealing the top 15 reasons why now might be the worst time to begin a calorie deficit. discover exactly what you need to address first to set yourself up for sustainable long term Fat Loss Success, no shortcuts, and no regaining all the weight back. This is about the long game.

Philip Pape 00:26

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The wit's end weights podcast. In our last episode 171 Big Butts, strong butts, we love them all, how to train your glutes with Sue Bush, we talked about a fun topic, especially for the ladies out there. And that is how to build strong, functional and aesthetically pleasing glutes. Why do we love butts so much? What are the benefits of glute development beyond just looking good? And what are the most effective training strategies, exercise selection and programming considerations for optimal results with those glutes Sue and I were contributors to the March issue of body by science. So she had me on her show recently, the physique development podcast. So if you missed that, go look her up and give it a follow. That's again, the physique development podcast today for episode 172. The top 15 reasons not to start a diet right now. If you want sustainable fat loss, you will discover the critical factors that can make or break your fat loss efforts. We're going to explore all of it how stress, sleep nutrition training, health issues can impact your results. And why addressing these is imperative, before starting a calorie deficit. You'll also learn about the importance of mental health supportive environments, navigating life events, and transitions, all the things that impact you when you're pursuing fat loss because they affect your chances of success and making it last, I want you to listen all the way through to make sure that you don't miss a scenario that could be relevant to you. And then you'll have the confidence to know that you are ready for fat loss when the time comes. And to help you on your journey. I actually made a free video on how to set up everything in your pre diet phase using macro factor. And this video is from the macro factor mastery course in Whitson weights physique university, but I'm giving it to you for free as a podcast listener. It's an unlisted YouTube link in my show notes, just check it out under episode resources. Alright, let's jump into the top 15 reasons not to start a diet right now, if you want sustainable fat loss, and the first reason, potentially, the most important reason is high stress levels. Chronic stress can lead to increased cortisol production, right? And cortisol is not always bad. It's a very important hormone that can benefit us. But chronic stress can increase this over time and make it to a level that it actually hinders fat loss and negatively impacts your adherents to a diet, mainly because your body starts to conserve energy. And as it conserves energy, it reduces your metabolic rate. And that just simply makes it harder because now you would have to cut on lower calories. And it would cause a vicious cycle of making you even more stressed out. So if your stress is really high, right now we're talking chronic stress, you haven't dealt with it, you don't have any techniques in place like breathing, you know, meditation, walking, it doesn't have to be anything fancy, just stuff that is for you on a daily basis, even 20 minutes a day, can go a long way in reducing that stress and give you a more favorable environment for fat loss. So high stress, that's number one. Number two is poor sleep, quality and quantity. All right, you knew these would be on the list, but they're really at the top of the list. For a reason. inadequate sleep can disrupt your balance of hunger hormones, the leptin and ghrelin, your satiety hormones, right, hunger and satiety, I should say. And then that leads to increased cravings. Difficulty adhering to the calorie deficit. We also know that poor sleep quality leads to fat storage in the places that we don't want it. And for both of those reasons, it is good to get locked in on a consistent sleep schedule. Even if you can't get eight or nine hours if you can get seven, even if it's six and a half, but it's consistent the same sleep time and wait time that is going to go a long way. And then all the other optimal sleep hacks related to having a dark cool room having a pre bed ritual avoiding blue light before bed, blue blocking glasses. There's a very long list of things we could get into. But really, if this is a big red flag for you right now it's going to make fat loss

Philip Pape 05:00

It's harder, so at least shifting it in the right direction is going to help. Alright, number three is poor nutrition, you knew some of these things would be near the top, especially for me, as a nutrition coach, I understand the importance of nutrition when it comes to fat loss, not just the calorie deficit itself, but the actual foundation of what you're eating in terms of macro composition, but also micronutrients and nutrient density. So if we can have a flexible approach, right, we talked about flexible dieting a lot on this show. But not a purely If It Fits Your Macros approach, meaning if I give you a target for calories and macros, and say just eat whatever you want to serve those macros, that is not going to serve you when it comes to fat loss. Because the quality and the balance and the types of foods actually impact your hunger, your satiety, your mental state, your performance, all of the things that then make fat loss easier, or harder. So there's some simple rules here, not even rules, just guidelines that will help you with your fat loss. One is to prioritize nutrient dense options. And I am a fan of additive nutrition, adding things in to displace other things that are less important, not necessarily cutting things out or reducing things. Taking a positive additive approach tends to be more in line with human psychology. And it's more fun, inviting approach to actually putting on your plate what you want and need, rather than shaming yourself for things that you quote unquote, should not have. So think about lean proteins, complex carbohydrates, you know, fats from whole food sources, all of the things High fiber foods, plants and vegetables, or fruits and vegetables, even dairy as long as it's lower fat because they're in fat loss that you know, every calorie count every calorie matters. Things that improve satiety things that make you full, right, it might be more like vegetable soups, and it could be having more salads for lunch, having harder foods that take longer to chew and digest and therefore send your body a signal that it's more full. All of these things along with hitting your macros, of course, hitting your protein and getting the right balance of fats and carbs. To support muscle maintenance will make you feel better during fat loss, not just from a mental and fullness perspective. But you want to avoid nutrient, you know vitamin and mineral gaps that can occur because you're at lower calories, because some of those gaps that wouldn't occur when you're at maintenance or in a gaining phase now occur and then all of a sudden, you start getting symptoms that surprise you, you know, low energy fatigue, all these kinds of symptoms. And it could be tied to your thyroid health, it could be tied to your other hormones. But it's a cascade that could have been caused simply because you're nutrient deficient. You're deficient in zinc and selenium and iron and copper and whatever other thing that you really need right now vitamin D. And it's simply because you reduce calories and aren't having the right level of nutrients in there, which may require supplementation. But more often than not, it's a simple shift in some of your food choices. So yes, we're trying to be in a calorie deficit, if you want to think of that as nutrition. But really, I think of nutrition as eating the things that satisfy you in all phases, and are sustainable and allow you to perform in the gym, even when calories are low. So we want to be tracking your macros and micros, we want to be tracking what we're eating, tracking our biofeedback, like hunger, digestion, or energy or mood or recovery. All of these play together, if any of these things are off, if the balance is far off on any one of these that makes fat loss harder, like I can't really go another day doing this, then we reevaluate, reassess, and we make adjustments. All right, and that'll set you up for the long term, because you don't want to force yourself doing this. You want it to feel fairly natural and a little bit easy. So I feel all the way easy, right? It's hard to do fat loss, but a little bit. So that's nutrition. That's number three. Number four. The fourth reason you wouldn't want to be dieting, is if you had inconsistent, or lack of training, right? Resistance training, walking, these are crucial components of a successful fat loss phase because you have to hold on to that muscle if you're going to lose primarily fat. So engaging in regular strength training, with the right intensity and execution that preserves lean muscle mass helps maintain your metabolism helps promote fat loss. And then the cardio as long as you're doing it strategically led by walking but also by other forms of cardio that are at the appropriate level for you. And your recovery can also contribute to increased caloric expenditure, not to mention the health benefits of all of that, right. So I would suggest that you have a regular training, schedule your training, let's say three days a week, four days a week, whatever it is, you've gotten to the step count that you are comfortable with. Maybe it's eight, maybe it's 10, maybe it's 12,000 steps, and you're incorporating whatever

Philip Pape 10:00

cardio you want before you go into fat loss phase, they just like with the nutrition, you want to establish all of the tracking, the macros, the food selection, before you go into fat loss, don't let fat loss, don't let a fat loss phase be the thing that triggers you to all of a sudden change all these things, because that's definitely a recipe for disaster. Okay, so there we go. If you don't have a consistent training routine, if you're not training to build muscle progressive overload all the training principles, then you're not going to be successful during fat loss. Yes, the training may shift in terms of volume or recovery a little bit. But for the most part, most people can keep training, just as they were when they were at maintenance as they go into the fat loss phase if it's an effective program for them. All right, the number five reason you don't want to be in fat loss is injury or illness, injury or illness. I can't tell you how many times I've had people say, Well, I'm sick, so I'm not eating. And I'm also not building muscles. So why would I eat more. And it's kind of a backward thinking, when you're sick, you need as much resources you need as many calories coming in as possible, to help your body recover from that injury or illness. And who cares about scale weight during that time, we're usually only talking about a few weeks, I mean, maybe it's a few months, if it's after surgery, in which case, there's a period at which you're, you know, maybe still in pain, maybe still recovering, maybe still mobile, but eventually we're gonna start moving again. And then you would go back to whatever phase you plan on doing. But you don't want the stress of a calorie deficit on top of the stress of injury, or illness, just get the rest, get the nutrition, you know, keep yourself moving. If it makes sense, depending on the type of illness or an injury, and support the healing process as best you can. That's the way to do it. And just quick story on that right, you guys might have heard probably a lot about my left shoulder rotator cuff surgery I had last year. And it got better and better and better. And then I had a little bit of a setback a few months ago. And I was in a fat loss phase, I immediately switched out of it and went to maintenance, right and the macro factor, one little hack you can do there is if you're in a fat loss phase, and you want to go to maintenance just for a short while I set the rate of loss down to almost zero, instead of setting a new goal, leave it as a fat loss goal, but set the rate of loss near zero. And that'll keep you close to maintenance. And then you could just overshoot that by like 100 calories every day to be definitely at at least maintenance. Alright, the sixth reason you don't want to be dieting, women who are pregnant or breastfeeding, I had to include this in here, just in case there was any ambiguity about it. But um, pursuing any sort of weight loss or fat loss during pregnancy absolutely is not advised. Pregnant women should be gaining on average 35 pounds, but it varies tremendously from person to person. So I'm not going to give give you that as a target. I'm just saying, you know, you would expect to gain weight because you're building an entire person inside of you supporting that developing fat reserves for afterward for breastfeeding, whether you're breastfeeding or not. I mean, that's just how the biology works. And then if you're breastfeeding, for sure, you don't want to be losing weight, because of all the extra nutritional demands needed to support the development of the baby after it's born. So here's where you know, I'm not giving you medical advice. I'm just saying that it probably is a good idea not to be dieting until you're past that phase. Right? I know there's a stigma, for whatever reason around women, you know, getting back to how they were before pregnancy. I think pregnancy is beautiful. I think it's this wonderful, natural thing and women who have, you know, a little bit of extra fat or skin because they were pregnant. Come on people. Why would we shame anyone for that? That's what I think. I think it's a beautiful thing for you to support that, again, whether you're breastfeeding or not, and that everyone can wants to whatever the reason is, so pregnancy or breastfeeding is not a good time to be dieting. The next one is mental health, if you have any mental health issues or struggles. So this is a wide spectrum, any sort of concerns that you feel our needs to be addressed from a mental health perspective, whether it's anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts, whatever. I think that prioritizing mental health itself is going to trump fat loss. And I think fat loss can make those things worse. We know that mental health is improved with when you have more energy in your system, like in terms of calories and food. When you have more movement like walking, when you strength train, all of these things are beneficial to mental health and they are segregated by having lack of calories coming in. So I would say, don't exacerbate it. Make sure to work with a qualified health professional mental health professional on your well being and that you know, then you know that that variable is not in the mix. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lived. I noticed that when people transform their physique. They not only look and feel better, but they also experience incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall

Philip Pape 15:00

Quality of Life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever. With a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 15:58

The next reason you wouldn't want to be dieting is if you have an environment around you, that is just way too unsupportive and sabotaging, right. And granted, we all live in a house or apartment or somewhere where there are temptations. And there's not a we can't control everything, there's things we can and can't control. And we want to create that supportive environment. We also know that it's okay to have things there that tempt us if we also build the resilience along the way where it's less of a temptation. But sometimes there are too many things that are just too many snacks sitting out on the counter in the office, you know, so much stress in your job that and you never meal plan and you never meal prep, you don't have the food in the fridge or the pantry. So now you're tempted to always go out to eat, all of these little things add up. And my point is if the overall environment is just so overbearing in terms of its lack of supporting your goals, address that address that first, to an extent, right to the extent that you think okay, it's all set. Now, there are a few things left that I can deal with no big deal. I'm ready for fat loss, but definitely deal with an unsupportive environment first. All right, number nine is going to be underlying hormonal imbalances. And we're talking about actual disorders. And I was gonna say medically diagnosed, but I know with the state of the industry, it's hard sometimes to get things diagnosed, even if you do have them. So it's really your call. And if you're working with a functional doctor, medical doctor, whatever. But things like thyroid disorders, right? Hypo hyperthyroidism and Hashimotos PCOS, because they affect your metabolic engine, they can impact fat loss by simply making it harder to lose weight, because your metabolic rate drops more significantly than for someone else. It's not impossible, I definitely have worked with clients who have the underlying issues, and have had medically diagnosed issues like Hashimotos, and they still can lose weight, they still lose fat, it's just everything has to really, really be dialed in. And so if you've got these issues, and you're trying to address them medically, go ahead and take care of that and monitor the data and the variables and your blood work to make sure things get where you want them first independence of fat loss, and then you're in a much more favorable metabolic environment for fat loss. Alright, number 10. Reason reason number 10. You don't want to be dieting is I kind of alluded to this already in the nutrition section. But it's nutrient deficiencies, like when you know for sure that you have nutrient deficiencies that have to be corrected. Okay. And these are, these are nutrient deficiencies when you're not in fat loss. So the last one I mentioned was, you know, when you cut calories and then become deficient, this is you have them even when you're not in fat loss, and there are either food choices or supplementation choices for iron, vitamin D, calcium, magnesium, whatever, that will solve some other things going on. Maybe you have low energy, maybe poor sleep, right? Could be anemia, whatever symptoms you have addressing those first, and then going into balance. Again, we're not trying to compound multiple stressors here. That's the point. All right, the 11th reason you wouldn't die it is if you have a major upcoming life event that is high stress. Now, one of those life events you might realize is something like a wedding. And a wedding is like probably the number one reason somebody says I need to lose fat. Okay? Now there's other things like okay, work is ramping up, and you have this huge project coming up. And it's just stressing the heck out of you. I had a client who went through clinicals. And it was like 12 hour days, you know, third shifts all this stuff, right. And it was a temporary state. It's kind of the worst time to be dieting during those periods because your stress goes up. And what's going to happen is your metabolism comes down, and you have to cut calories more and now listen, you're just sapped of energy. And the stress is ramping up is a vicious cycle, right. But something like a wedding. This is where I think you want to have a long term plan if possible. Now, if you're getting married in six weeks from now or eight weeks from now, and you feel you have fat to lose

Philip Pape 20:00

that's your call, right? That's your call, if you want to buckle down, pull out the willpower and discipline card and just make it happen. That's up to you. That's not sustainable, right? That's not a long term approach. But I get that a wedding was once a lifetime thing, and you're just gonna make that trade off. Okay, I understand it. But I actually have two clients right now that, that I know of who have weddings over a year from now. And they're like, What am I going to do for that, and my first response is good for you for asking, with plenty of time, because this is going to make it very easy, what we would do is we would take the wedding and we would reverse engineer it. And if there's any fat loss needed, which generally there's some fat loss that they want to get, because they want to be, you know, very, very lean, and shredded or whatever, not shredded, but you know, they want to have just the best physique ever for their wedding. Right, it's understandable, to fit in that dress fit in that suit, whatever, we would then put the fat loss phase far before the wedding in a time when it wasn't too stressful, you know, like me usually takes like a year to plan for wedding. And, you know, the stress tends to ramp up toward the end before the wedding. So we fit that fat loss phase in the middle, somewhere of that 10 month period. And then get back to like, just maintaining that, for example, or at worst, have like a mini cut closer to the wedding, but not a very long stressful cut, you know, something moderate, that's also short in duration, then that's an approach. But anyway, if you have an upcoming major life event in the short term, like in the next two to three months, and just not even that long, but like the next month or so and stresses ramping up, that's not a great time to be dieting. All right, the 12th reason you may not want to be dieting is and this is an important one, but I wanted to include it in here for completeness, if you have a history of eating disorders. Now, I'm not talking about someone who has an active eating disorder right now, if you do, please, please seek medical help, I hope you're getting treatment for that. But if you have a history of eating disorders, and you're not dealing with eating disorders today, you know you've processed, you've come up with some solutions for that that work for you, I would still approach fat loss with caution. And under the guidance of either a mental health professional medical professional dietician, or well qualified coach even because again, we're not talking about people who currently have a disorder. But some of you may have had it in the past where there's a little more opportunity for being triggered by certain foods and certain behaviors. We want to prioritize that healthy relationship with food, with body image for long term success. And so one thing that comes to mind is if and when you resolve all the other things, and you're like, No, I'm ready to go. My only caution here is take a conservative approach, right? Don't go aggressively, give yourself time, give yourself a lot of buffer, take it very, very easy. So it's almost like you're not really dieting, you're just shifting in the direction to release some fat. And then you're tracking the data. And when you're tracking, use something like macro factor, and you're tracking your biofeedback and you're lifting weights, generally, those come together in a very healthy way to give you so much awareness that it helps with the relationship with food, without even any other factors involved. And then other factors like, you know, mindful eating, and journaling and listening to your hunger cues. And all of the other things we talked about can be helpful. All right, the 13th reason you don't want to be dieting, is when you're in a period of very intense training, such as like preparing for a powerlifting meet, or a marathon, something like an endurance race. This is where nutritional periodization comes into play. Because the worst thing you can do is starve yourself going into something that requires performance, right, and endurance activities and powerlifting meets both meet that criteria. Because with a powerlifting meet, for example, yeah, you want to make weight, but you don't want to do it at the risk of, you know, tons of pounds off of your total, right, and energy and performance and chance of injury. So you've got a time the cut, and the duration of the cut at the right point, or ideally not having to cut at all like the way you set yourself up is to almost gain into the weight class if possible. You know, especially for most lifestyle power lifters or people who are recreational kind of competitors and not super hardcore about it. You're probably not wanting to do water cuts and all this extreme stuff anyway. And so you can phase it in just the right way. If you're an endurance athlete, kind of a similar deal. You don't want to be like, I know you want to be light on the scale because of the what am I trying to say, strength to weight ratio for speed. But you don't want to be doing that at the risk of your energy. And, in fact, a good prep protocol nutritional protocol leading up to something like a marathon, a very long endurance event is going to be increasing carbs and lowering the protein as you get closer and increasing calories quite extensively, which is the counter of being in a diet. So if you need to get to a certain weight for your racing, it should be done well ahead of time, just like with the wedding example. Same thing with the powerlifting meet. It's done ahead of time and you periodized the

Philip Pape 25:00

things. So you have a dedicated fat loss phase at some point, you have your offseason, right where you're also gaining or you're gaining skill and performance, you have a fat loss phase, but you also need to recover and get ready and prep for this event. Okay, number 14 out of 15. Here is if there is a significant life transition. So this is a major life change. This isn't the so before I talked about an upcoming event, this is more something that mentally or emotionally taxes you in, you know, can be a big move, you're moving to another state, you have a new job, maybe your income dropped, maybe, you know, there was death in the family, there's just so many things, even just having a child. I mean, we talked about pregnancy and breastfeeding, just having a new child where both the husband and wife or you know, the father and mother are potentially losing sleep and their whole schedule gets up ended their work schedule, their stress, right, all of those things, maybe your kid is going to college, whatever, any change that taxes you mentally and emotionally, where it's just very, very difficult to adhere to a fat loss diet. And again, we could always make trade offs, you could always say, well, I'll just go more conservatively, or I'll do refeeds or diet breaks. My whole point with this episode, is to have like a dog whistle for you. If you meet one of these scenarios, your ears perk up and you're like, Okay, Philip, I am in that scenario, I want to hear what you're saying. And maybe I should be very crystal clear with my goals and why I'm trying to do what I'm doing. And if one goal, one priority Trumps another, and that's fat loss, and you want to do it, that's your choice. That's obviously your choice. And in which case, which case nice little plug here, go back and listen to episode 170, which is how fast to lose weight for fat loss. And then you can pick the right rate of loss that might make sense for you. But back to the life transitions. It's a stress, it all comes down to stress, and not only adherence to your diet. But oftentimes when we have a major life change, we are disrupted from our routine, we're disrupted from our food access, like we don't necessarily have access to the same food potentially, or the schedule to make or prep that food, we might end up going out more often out of convenience. And we could develop some more unhealthy eating habits that then make it harder for fat loss. Right. Okay. And then the last one number 15. is, this is kind of a corner case, they call it in the biz, but medication side effects, medication side effects, so certain medications can impact weight management, they might increase your appetite to weight gain. And I'm not talking about GLP one agonists, which is a whole separate topic that I'm going to get into on some other episodes. Although, because in fact, if you're on one of those, then the whole point is it makes fat loss easier by reducing your hunger. But I'm talking about things that might increase your appetite might increase your weight gain. And they're kind of known side effects, or you notice that they're happening. This is where fat loss can be harder, because it's just very hard to adhere to it, it's going to be very individual, it depends on the side effects depends on the medication, this is where you should be working with a medical professional as well as potentially a coach who can if you still want to do fat loss could at least understand that there's this variable in there from your medication. So that wraps up the top 15 reasons that now may be the worst time to start a diet. So you know, when is the right time for you is probably when you're not facing any of these scenarios, to any large effect. And that's the key, it's a matter of degrees, we all have stress we all have sometimes poor sleep, we all have life events, you probably resonate with many of these scenarios. So it's really a matter of degree, if something like this is fairly ever present in your life, it may not be a good time to go into a dieting phase. Now the desire to start a fat loss diet may be strong, right? The force is strong with this one, I get it. But it's even more important than you think to, you know, always be assessing your current circumstances, and then address any potential roadblocks before diving in. That's all I'm asking you to do. So this may not be eliminating some of these things from your life that may not be possible. But you can either mitigate them, mitigate their impact on you, or set yourself up so that you have if then plans of action, right? If this happens, I can do this. If this happens, I can do this have little, you know plans in your back pocket. So that if one of these things that are in your life, ramp up to a point that might not be sustainable, you have a backup plan. So for example, you know, if my stress gets unbearable, due to my work obligations, I am going to increase my calories by half to eliminate increase to have to read a loss. Or I'm gonna go up to diet break for one week. But you can have these little things that you tell yourself it's okay to do it. I'm going to do that. And it's the trade off that's worth making.

Philip Pape 30:00

came from my health. And then of course, you're always going to be prioritizing things like stress management, sleep quality, nutrition, training, all the things that affect your overall health, right? All of these are important anyway, for sustainable fat loss. Even if everything's going quote, unquote, smoothly, you still want to do these things. Because the long game done right is actually the fastest path to success. Most of us have no problem losing weight. We've done it many, many, many times in our life. But many of us have not done it the right way. And we've had trouble keeping that weight off. So let's do it the right way. Right? If you're smart about it, you're going to take the time to prepare yourself mentally, to prepare yourself physically, and then you're just going to be better equipped to handle the challenges that come with a calorie deficit. Okay, and as I mentioned before, if you want my free video on how to set yourself up for a pre diet maintenance phase, so that you know exactly what your metabolism is, and what calorie macro targets to hit, when you are ready to get there as efficiently as possible, and no reverse dieting needed. That's an inside joke. For those who follow the podcast. Click the link in my show notes under episode resources for that free video. And if you want to get a head start right now, just go download macro factor from your app store, enter my code Whitson weights and start using it for free. My code will give you an extra three weeks on the trial period. That's Whitson weights all one word when you download and set up macro factor and that is all explained in the video too. So if you just want to go click the video, my show notes, you can do that. Alright, in our next episode 173 Why mindset alone won't solve your food and hormone struggles with Tanya Shaw, we're going to explore the limitations of the mind over matter mentality. You've heard it before. It's mind over matter. It's all in your mind. We're going to explore the limitations of that because it's not what it's cracked up to be. We're going to talk about how combining mindset with the understanding of body science is key to not just achieving results, but loving your results. You'll even learn how thoughts and emotions affect our body's physical functions, especially your hormones, and some simple techniques to help you actually shift your mindset to better support your health goals. So as always, make sure to hit follow right now in your podcast app to get notified when that episode comes out and to support the show. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the wits and weights podcast.

Philip Pape 32:25

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Philip Pape 5/10/24 Philip Pape 5/10/24

Ep 171: Big Butts, Strong Butts, We Love Them All! How to Train Your Glutes with Sue Bush

Are you dreaming of having the perfect glutes? Have you ever wondered how your diet and genes influence the shape of your butt? Ready to find out the most effective workout routines and strategies to sculpt your dream glutes? Philip welcomes Sue Bush, the co-owner of Physique Development, a certified personal trainer, fitness nutritionist, and competitive physique athlete, to discuss a topic that’s sure to interest many - how to develop a shapely, firm, and functional butt. She explains why we’re so fascinated with glutes, the benefits of glute development beyond aesthetics, and the most effective strategies for optimal results. Sue also shares insights on the role of nutrition, genetics, and individual response in glute development, providing practical tips for different ages and equipment availability.

Are you dreaming of having the perfect glutes? Have you ever wondered how your diet and genes influence the shape of your butt? Ready to find out the most effective workout routines and strategies to sculpt your dream glutes?

In this exciting episode, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Sue Bush, the co-owner of Physique Development, a certified personal trainer, fitness nutritionist, and competitive physique athlete. Sue, a co-contributor to the March issue of Body By Science, joins Philip to discuss a topic that’s sure to interest many - how to develop a shapely, firm, and functional butt. She explains why we’re so fascinated with glutes, the benefits of glute development beyond aesthetics, and the most effective strategies for optimal results. Sue also shares insights on the role of nutrition, genetics, and individual response in glute development, providing practical tips for different ages and equipment availability.

Sue’s journey in the fitness industry began in 2017, and she has since earned multiple certifications and competed in physique competitions for four seasons. With her passion for empowering women to prioritize their health and fitness, Sue specializes in helping individuals make sustainable lifestyle changes that align with their goals and schedules. Together with her husband, Alex Bush, and the rest of Team PD at Physique Development, Sue is committed to leading, educating, and inspiring generational change through the power of health and excellence.

*Today, you’ll learn all about:*

3:24 Why we love butts
8:12 Benefits of glute development
13:03 What to prioritize (training, nutrition) and how genetics play a role
19:23 Approach to training (exercises, programming, and individual response)
27:23 Training intensity and execution
36:05 The importance of logging and taking videos
42:53 The impact of exercise selection in glute training
53:30 Training over 40 in the context of back health
55:41 The question Sue wanted Philip to ask and her answer
1:00:55 Where to find Sue
1:01:30 Outro

Episode resources:

Episode summary:

When it comes to sculpting the perfect lower body, understanding the science behind muscle development is crucial. The latest episode features fitness expert Sue Bush, who unravels the complexities of personalized glute training. This isn't your average fitness discussion; it's an in-depth exploration of how your unique genetic makeup and lifestyle can influence the way you approach lower body workouts.

In our pursuit of aesthetic excellence, it's easy to fall into the trap of one-size-fits-all fitness regimens. However, Sue challenges this notion by emphasizing the need for a tailored approach. As we delve into the relationship between muscular functionality and aesthetics, listeners gain not just a blueprint for a stunning physique, but also the knowledge to enhance everyday movement and core strength.

Have you ever considered how your body's mechanics impact your fitness journey? Sue and the host discuss the importance of understanding and optimizing your individual body type for targeted muscle growth. They highlight the power of keeping a detailed log of your workouts, demonstrating how disciplined tracking can lead to significant gains and illuminate the path to peak performance. The underrated tool of video analysis also comes into play, offering an opportunity to perfect form and technique.

As the episode progresses, the conversation turns to the creation of a comprehensive glute program. Sue discusses exercises designed to challenge muscles from various angles, ensuring that listeners are equipped to build stronger glutes and a resilient core. Whether you're navigating muscle and fat gain or seeking post-surgery workout advice, this episode covers all bases. By the end, you'll be inspired to achieve the strong, functional lower body you've always wanted.

Now, let's touch on the role of genetics in training for glute growth. Sue brings to light how genetics heavily influence body composition and muscle development. She advocates for a shift from comparison to personal progress and highlights the necessity of adapting training techniques to suit individual genetic profiles for optimal muscle development. It's about understanding your own body and setting realistic expectations based on your unique characteristics.

Moreover, the significance of video analysis in training cannot be overstated. Sue points out the common oversight among coaches who don't observe their clients' training sessions. Regular video feedback is essential for identifying gaps in a client's regimen and ensuring that training intensity is balanced with recoverability.

Another crucial topic discussed is the importance of keeping a logbook. It's a simple yet effective way to track progress and make informed decisions about your training. From recording workouts to noting external factors like time of day and pre-workout meals, a logbook can be a game-changer for anyone serious about their fitness goals.

Lastly, Sue covers the principles of glute training for growth. Selecting the right exercises and understanding muscle anatomy can drastically improve engagement and execution during workouts. She explains how different movements can target the glutes effectively and stresses the importance of a well-designed program that includes progression and recovery.

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Transcript

Sue Bush 00:00

When people make those very specific suggestions, and they just say, this is the one thing that you need to grow your glutes that drives me crazy because there are so many things that you need to know to be able to do that. It's not just you need to eat these foods to grow your glutes or you need to do this exercise to grow your glutes. I think that when we look at glutes specifically, I have seen firsthand especially with being in the competitor round of people can have very great genetics that they store their body fat on their glutes, where I'm sure some of you guys listening to this could be like, Oh, when I gain weight, it immediately goes to my core first, or immediately goes to my arms. First People distribute weight all different ways.

Philip Pape 00:43

Sue Bush 02:58

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. And for the wonderful intro makes me sound really cool.

Philip Pape 03:02

Well deserved. I'm glad we could connect, you know, since being on that, that issue of bills together. And I think I reached out to you and said we need to collaborate here with our podcast, and share with our audiences. What's going on. And one of the things you've been talking about lately, on your IG and elsewhere is glute training. I know you've had some long Q and A's on your podcast, and I encourage people to go check those out as well. But my first question to you is, why do we love butts so much? What is the what is the attraction to this area of the body? Is it social, cultural? Is it you know, a functional thing? Where does this all come from? Well, we

Sue Bush 03:37

could refer back to songs back in the 70s, from KC and the Sunshine Band like Shake, shake, shake, or queen of fat bottom girls, or even go to the 90s where we have Sir Mix A Lot, singing about how much he likes big butts, and even to present day songs like Anaconda going very viral, but at the core of it, it's actually primal. So Dr. David Lewis, who said that our male ancestors developed an attraction to women with big butts because it increased their chances of having offspring that would live long enough to pass on their DNA. So it's really an indicator of fertility. If you think back to the caveman days, they're looking and they're wanting to see someone that does have that fertility can carry on the DNA. And there was also a 2014 study done that found that women with a larger waist to hip ratios had higher levels of the hormone needed to get pregnant, and therefore possessed and crease changes are increased chances of fertility. There's also the aspect of you need strong legs and the ability to balance with your center of gravity changing with pregnancy. So it showed that women with larger butts could finish the pregnancy and having that body fat because normally to have bigger glutes you have to have a little bit higher body fat was a sign of being able to support the pregnancy as well. So again, if we go back to the caveman days, if someone was very, very thin, they might not be Well to carry a pregnancy or get pregnant. Whereas if you had a little junk in the trunk, then that was a good signaling of like, Hey, you can carry on the DNA you can sustain a pregnancy and be able to have a healthy child. And another role in this is going to be pop culture. So think of what is popular and what we consume constantly think about things like the Kardashians, which are extremely popular, namely Kim and we think back to like that champagne photoshoot she did. butts were all the rage and even thinking about female rappers like I mentioned the song Anaconda, as well as a lot of female rappers not only rapping about butts, but also being having that larger behind. So like Nicki Minaj, Magda, stallion, Cardi B, dosha, cat, and more and even the popularity of bbls across the land. So there's multiple things I do believe that at the core of it, it is primal, but past that it has really transformed into like that societal and pop culture. Because again, we we consume so much that that then pushes us into what we like, what we dislike, what we find attractive, all of those different things. So

Philip Pape 06:10

then why do you care about it? Personally,

Sue Bush 06:12

I care about it, because I always didn't have a button. And it's kind of like you always want what you don't have. And when I got into lifting, I just felt extremely empowered by being able to truly shape my body and be able to change the way that I looked. And it was something where I could see muscles that I had never seen before. It was something where I always struggled with glute growth, I got made fun of it. And Middle School in high school being told that my back went straight down to my legs, I was even having a conversation with my sister about it. And she was just like, people don't get it like, we are not genetically blessed to have glutes within our family that if you see the the other people in my family, it's not like, oh, that's kind of where they store fat, or that's where the genetics are. And so I always wanted to acquire it. Now part of it also was because of competing in bikini competitions, which I don't do anymore. But that was something that was needed for the look is to have bigger glutes, but I just love, I just love how it makes me feel to be able to, again, have that shape and really go after and say, hey, I want this muscle bigger, and then being able to go and do that. So even though I'm sure there is some influence from pop culture, it's also the aspect of it was something that I always wanted for my own self competence. And then the more I learned about glutes, the more I saw the benefit of having glutes overall, you hit

Philip Pape 07:38

on so many great points that highlight the positive aspects of physique development. And I think there are many. And that is, like you said, being able to have this this power over your body, whatever that is, it could be, you know, an asymmetry, or it could simply be just overall size and strength and function. And you were talking recently on one of your episodes about, I'll say, the vanity or the visual aspects of physique development. And there's no wrong reason for doing any of this stuff. Right? If it's positive and contributes toward our well being I, in my opinion, there's no wrong reason to do it. So I was curious, you know, of that for you. And I want to, I want to segue into the benefits of developing a glute, we can definitely talk about the aesthetics, which probably doesn't take long, long discussion, we kind of just covered it, but the strength and functional benefits. And one thing you did mention was the little bit of higher body fat may be needed as well. And at least tied into the history of, of the glutes, I do want to bring that in as well, as we talk about training and developing don't forget that point of it. In case there's a little hack there that people need to know about. So what are the benefits we and then we can get into some specifics? Yeah,

Sue Bush 08:41

well, the big benefit is that allows you to function as a human being by having glute tissue. I really like to tell this story because I, when I first got started personal training, I was training in person. And of course, one of my first few clients where my parents, as good parents do just to support their kids. And I remember, I was having my dad do hip thrusts. And he was like, I'm not trying to, like grow big glutes, like, do I need to be doing this? And I was like, yes, because as you age, and you are already aging, this is something that you are going to need to be able to age gracefully, and to age while you can still function. Because, of course, there's the aesthetic side. And I think that a lot of times people try to push like, this is good for your health. And it's like if it we just knew it was good for our health, don't you think there'd be a lot of other things that we would already be doing. But we have to think about us as human beings and there is that vanity side of okay, I want to look a certain way, which I think is so good to be able to focus on because like you said, if it contributes to you positively, why not. But when we're looking at the glutes, they're going to play a key role in hip stability and pelvis stability, which is going to be so important for things like walking, which we all do jumping, sprinting, strength training, and it's also something where if we look at the different parts of the glutes, they are going to help with hip extension and being able to externally and internally rotate and abduct. So moving the thigh away from the body. And it's also going to allow to keep our bodies upright and making sure that our bodies are pushed forward to a certain degree. So it's going to allow you to function in those everyday tasks, which is what I always like to boil it down to is, okay, yes, here's the aesthetic side. And yes, you can want to grow your glutes. But let's also talk about why it's important. And how it helps you to just be a functioning human being not even talking about, I want to build glutes so big that everyone thinks I got to bbl. But more so of I want to be able to walk as I age I hear so often. And I know we're gonna touch on that a little bit later about as you age, and what that looks like, for different generations. But a lot of times you hear people want to say they want to play with their grandkids, or they want to play with their kids. And it's like a part of playing is being able to walk or stand upright, and your glutes are going to be a major mover in that. And not to mention how the pelvis then also like goes hand in hand with your core. And being able to have that in a good spot, which also goes hand in hand with your glutes. Because when you see people that often have like an anterior pelvic tilt, it's normally that they have really weak core muscles that they can't pull their core in. And it's having that tilted over movement. And that can be from also having weak glutes. And so being able to see how this goes into just how your body literally stands, allows you to be like, okay, yes, I can want huge glutes, but I can also want it because it allows me to function as a human being. Yeah. So

Philip Pape 11:43

what you're saying is it's part of the core, right? Because sometimes people think of the core is just the the rest is truly part of that whole. Yeah, right. And the thing about pushing forward, explain that just a little bit for listeners when you said, because you talked about the abduction, you also talked about posture and being upgraded. What do you mean by the pushing forward,

Sue Bush 12:00

so the aspect of your glutes like I talked about within your pelvis, that's going to be something that if your pelvis isn't sturdy, then it can put you in a place. And it can also be depending on what it looks like for how you use your glutes that if your glutes are weak, it can force your body that when it's not balanced, that it compensates with other things. And so then it puts you in a place where it's really difficult because like you talked about with that core box as a whole, that where you have like, not just the back of your hips and where your glutes are across your like hip Ridge as a whole. But you're also thinking of like your extensors, and being able to keep you upright and like push you forward to the degree of not like, Okay, I'm going to like lean forward all the way but more so of the degree of we have forward lean in our bodies and how our rib cages like stand as a whole, that we're not just completely straight up and down. There is some movement there within our body. Yeah,

Philip Pape 13:00

love that almost like an athletic position, if you will, you know, you mentioned getting made fun of for not having much of a but I got made fun of for having too much of a but for a guy. And I wonder about the genetic differences. They're like, how much of that is where we store fat versus muscle? And how consequential are those genetics? Like you've already mentioned, you can make a change to that. But what what is the impact of those genetics? When we think of our baseline before we get into Okay, now, what do we do for training and nutrition? Yeah,

Sue Bush 13:29

I think one part of that, especially with you talking about like male versus female, it can be on your limb lengths as a whole and how you're able to move through different movements. So for example, my husband does have big glutes, and I've always been jealous of them. But his body is basically primed to be able to buy us glutes. And so the way that he has for his femur length, and how his core length so I personally have a longer torso and I have long femurs. So if you know anything about just what that means for your overall body levers, that means it's going to be very difficult to be able to target your glutes and so no movement Am I set up in to automatically bias glutes, whereas my husband, again, his levers are all set up that anytime he does any type of squat, he's biasing his glutes. Anytime he does like any kind of like stepping even like a step up. He is majorly biasing his glutes where for me, I had to kind of play around with how I get set up in the movement. So I think part of it is not only going to be I mean genetics are going to play into your limb length to a certain degree, but it's also just going to be how your body is laid out or the levers that you are able to do different exercises. So if you even think about things I always like to use the example of people say like, Oh, I'll never look like that person. And it's like, you may never look like that person because your body is built completely different not in regards of where your fat is, or or how lean you are, I'm talking in regards to, like, if someone has really short glute insertions, they might be able to show and have like a really bubbly glutes just because they don't have as much muscle to fill in and it's able to protrude more and give a different look. Whereas I personally have really long blue insertions, which is great in the term of being able to build like these long diamond glutes, but it's also a lot of glute to fill out, like think about in the fact of if you have someone who is six foot versus by five, and you even think about that, in terms of bodybuilding, the reason they do by height, and then also by weight is because there's such a differential in that of each inch, you can add 10 to 20 pounds to your body, and it still look the same as someone else that might be an inch or two shorter than you. And so being able to keep that in mind of what it looks like to actually add muscle to that tissue, instead of using it in a discouraging way of oh, I'm never going to look like that person. How I've really turned it around for myself is okay, what are the things like? How can I learn about myself to then reset my expectations, and then be able to have new goals for myself, if I can still look at someone and say, like, oh, they have a great physique, or I would love to look like them. But instead of then tearing myself apart, because I don't look like them, I kind of backtrack and I don't pick them apart. But I'll just say like, oh, they have a shorter femur and they have a shorter torso. So that's going to make it that they have a much better way of being able to bias their glutes or they have those shorter insertions. So that I can just be kinder to myself and be able to realize what that looks like. But genetics do play a huge, huge role. When it comes to your, your glutes, and just how your body looks, it's going to be something where it's not the only factor like we've already mentioned. But it's something that when we have genetics, that's also going to determine where your body fat is stored. And I think that when we look at glutes specifically, I have seen firsthand, especially with Bing, in the competitor round of people can have very great genetics that they store their body fat on their glutes, where I'm sure some of you guys listening to this could be like, Oh, when I gain weight, it immediately goes to my core first, or it immediately goes to my arms. First People distribute weight all different ways. And sometimes people are very lucky. And it goes to their glutes first. And you see that why I mentioned competing, because you see it firsthand when you're trying to lose weight, because you're doing extreme weight loss of oh, that actually wasn't tissue that was really well distributed fat, which is very lucky for people, I'm not hating on it. I'm jealous of it that that is the case. But again, genetics play a huge role in not only your limb lengths, your levers, but then just how you're going to distribute fat and how easy it is for you to gain muscle overall. Because I'm also sure we know some people who barely work out and have muscles where you might feel like I've been trying really hard for years, and I don't have that same muscle tissue. And that like those freaks of nature normally come to fruition within competing again, because you see these people and they just build this insane physique. And it's like, how did they do that? It's like, oh, genetics played a role not to take away from their hard work at all, it takes hard work regardless, but some people are just a little bit more blessed about how they're everything, all their anthropometrics lay out for them. You're

Philip Pape 18:28

speaking my language. So I love this. I think you just hit genetics. And rather than make it this like thing we have, and let's move on, it's actually we need to understand our genetics very intimately through our training and biofeedback and collecting data and measurements. And I'm sure there's lots of things we can get into of how to do that. Besides just you see it, and you know it in many cases, but things like muscle, belly insertions, limb lanes, I love all of that, because the listener can then say, Okay, I've been doing X movement, religiously, decent amount of volume, I'm responsive to building muscle, but not in this one part of my body, even though that movement is supposed to be giving me that that's probably a signal that that's not the best for you, assuming that's not a form or other issue. So I love genetics as a baseline of awareness, and then not beating yourself up for it, but being kind to yourself and knowing that this is data that you can now have be empowered from and take action from. So totally love that. And so that that leads into once you have that baseline information, what should we be measuring? And then we can get into the training approach, you know, all the people, the things people are waiting for, like, you know, what, what movements do I do? How do I adjust for me? How do I program and things like that? So how do we start and then get into that discussion? Yeah,

Sue Bush 19:40

as far as what we should measure or kind of keep track of one thing I like to say is if you want to see progress, track progress, and that's where a lot of people fall short is they get so into, I want to see results. I feel like I'm working hard. And it's like are you looking at the data because the only way to move forward is with data driven decision. And that's not just in training that is within everything, whether you're trying to post content on social media, whether you're trying to grow a business, whether you're trying to grow your glutes, you need to be able to look at data to make decisions. And so if you have no idea, you're not tracking your training volume, you're not taking check in photos, you don't know what your weight is, you have no idea how much you're eating, or what that looks like consistency day to day, you have no idea what your steps are, or how long you're sitting in a day. And you don't know how much water you have. If you're not tracking any of that, then how can you expect to see results forward? And so of course, we could go through an extensive list. And even just the list I made of you might say, Oh, that seems like a lot to track. And it's like, Yes, this is hard work period, there. Yes, there are some different things you can do to make sure you're working smarter, not harder. But at the end of the day, you are going to have to put effort forward. And that might mean tracking some metrics. And that's what I always go to when people get started. They're like, Well, how do I do this? How do I do this? How do I do this? And I'm like, why don't you just track what you're doing for a week? Let's circle back on that baseline. And let's make decisions off of that. And people get really antsy. And they're like, well, aren't you just going to tell me what the plan is. And it's like, I can't make a plan, if I don't know the data to then make a thing because if I just say, Oh, just go ahead and get 8000 steps. And just go ahead and do this, it might be that that person's getting 2000 steps a day. And I just told them to go to 8000. Or it might be that person's getting 16,000 steps a day. And I just said get at least 8000. And since I said at least they're going off the charts, and we're getting all this inflammation, possibly and not getting enough food in place. Because I didn't know what the data was. And so the biggest thing I would tell you, regardless of what you track, just track something, even if you just start with one or two things, I'm not saying go from tracking, nothing to track everything. But maybe it's starting at, okay, let me just track my food for a week, not trying to hit specific macros. Let me just see what I'm eating in a week. Okay, maybe from there, I go ahead and I add on my steps, then I go ahead and I add on my water intake, whatever it may be, just tracking some progress is going to be so much better than nothing. But specifically within glute growth. I think that like food and training, obviously go hand in hand with so many things. People hear that time and time again, you might wonder Okay, which one is more important? I think that kind of opens the conversation of like, what came first the chicken or the egg. It's like, both are important period. But if we're looking at some things I think I like to look at if you don't know anything about nutrition, and you already have somewhat of a regular training routine, regardless of if we're going to consider your training, but right or quite wrong. If you already have some sort of training routine, and you're doing nothing with nutrition, then I would recommend starting with nutrition. But if you're in a place where you have gotten some education about nutrition, and you haven't really gotten into training, then let's start with training. And so I don't think it's a one size fits all of Hey, start with this thing, or this is the thing that you need to focus on. And when people make those very specific suggestions, and they just say, this is the one thing that you need to grow your glutes, that drives me crazy, because there are so many things that you need to know, to be able to do that. It's not just you need to eat these foods to grow your glutes, or you need to do this exercise to grow your glutes. It's a multifaceted thing that you need to be able to then look at yourself and reflect and say, What do I need to focus on a little bit more? And have honest conversations with yourself? Because that's something where I see and I'm sure you do a lot across the board is that someone might be like, Well, I am training consistently. And it's like, Are you like, are you actually like, let's have an honest conversation with ourselves about what that looks like. Or even saying, like, I train hard. It's like, okay, are you? Are you tracking your training sessions at all? Are you just trying to gauge it by if you feel tired at the end of it, or if you feel sore the next day. And so really digging into what it means for each person, because it also means different things for each person, is the big thing that I try to dive into, especially if I'm talking about a client or someone's like asking me a question in the DMS of like, Should I do this? Or should I do this? I'm like, Well, why do you want to do that? What does this other thing I normally respond with asking more questions? Instead of just giving an answer? I'm

Philip Pape 24:25

laughing inside because this is what happens to get to coaches who agree and all this stuff. And I think the listener, they've heard a lot of this, like, you're the female version of me and with a lot of what you're saying. I mean, everything from the tracking. Yeah, you're so right. Like, is it harder to track? Or is it harder to just continue having no clue why what you're doing is not giving you the result you want? Like that's one of the things to say, Yeah, it's hard but like tracking your budgets hard to and it's better than being broke, you know,

Sue Bush 24:50

choose your heart. Like just decide which hard do you want to take because those are all going to be hard, and it might feel like something might feel easier. But is that Short Term comfort long. Yes, comfort, because you have to think about that to have it might feel like it's easier in the moment to do something else. But in the long run, how is that going to make you feel because that's how I felt even about fitness is that I used to make fun of people who ate healthy, and we're like working out because part of it was likely because I wasn't doing it. And I felt insecurity about that, whatever it may be. I also just felt that I didn't understand that people could truly be happy doing that I was coming from a place of like, that doesn't make me happy to train and do all these other things or to eat a certain way. But it came down from also I was living day to day with being depressed because of the foods that I was eating. And from my lack of movement, and the lack of keeping promises to myself, and I literally had to hit rock bottom before I realized, like, oh, this easy isn't actually easy. This is causing most of the issues in my life. I am the one contributing to my own downfall here. And that's what I mean about honest conversations is it you can say I don't have enough time, I don't have enough this, I get it. Like, I'm not here to tell you like you do have enough time, you just need to do X but you you get to decide what you do with your time. So if you want to continue to say, I can't do that, or that doesn't make me feel good, or that feels hard. You have to ask yourself all right, then are you okay? Loving the way that you're living? And you can't expect to see the results? If you, again, are not wanting to put an effort, I always talk about having to align your effort with your expectations. If you have a certain expectation of what you want to occur, does your effort match that? And most of the time, it's no, and you have to fill that gap of you either have to lower your expectation, or you have to increase your effort. Yeah,

Philip Pape 26:48

there's so much reframing there. I mean, it does often come down to identity and self talk and expectations. You also mentioned individuals who asked you these questions that are always going to have an independent answers. And that's why you follow up with questions back to them. But I also like how you said if you've got if you've got a piece taken care of, maybe it's this other piece that we want to focus on, even if it isn't optimal over here. I think on one of your podcasts, you talked about harmony versus balance, right? Like we don't, we're not trying to balance everything in perfect proportion to everything else, we're trying to integrate everything. And if there's one area that's lagging, maybe that's where we focus, let's set the context. Then for the glute training discussion. If someone is listening, who does have most of the things in place, let's say they have been tracking their food, they understand their maintenance calories, they know how to eat plenty of protein, they're eating nutrient dense foods, things like that. And they're training three or four days a week with typical hypertrophy or strength program. And now they're like my glutes aren't where I want them to be. Where would we go from that point in terms of training considerations, or anything else,

Sue Bush 27:50

the first two things that I look at within that are going to be training intensity and training execution. So we actually we have a staff of coaches, and we, one of the coaches had reached out to me and was like, Hey, this is what's going on with this client. They are doing this, this and this, they're checking all the boxes. But here are the pictures, I'm still not seeing the results that I want to see with this client. And I said, Have you ever seen a video of them exercising? And they're like, well, they send some exercise videos, but it's always when they are doing very lightweight, and trying to nail down the movement. I said, Do you know that for a fact, are you making that assumption that that is that what they're doing in that video, and they were like, Oh, wow, I feel like such an idiot for not looking at the sooner I was like, you don't need to feel like an idiot. This is just the gap. And this is where a lot of coaches and especially online coaches fall short is they do not look at the people training, that is the most massive thing that you miss out with, with training online is you don't actually get to see the person train. And that's why it is a very huge part of our service is you are going to send videos of your training and we mark in the training, these are the videos I want to see this is when I want to see them. And this is the reason I want to see it, whether it's checking your form or checking your intensity on something. Because I find most of the time, even if someone's like, Oh yeah, I'm hitting this RP, and I am training hard. It's like Ben, let me see it. Let's see what failure looks like for you. And that's not to say that you should take everything to failure. I think that that that's where I struggle with talking about intensity is I feel like people then go to the extreme and they're like, I need to be limping out of the gym. And I need to take everything to failure and actually be dying. And it's like, you need to again, put in effort. You do need to have intensity. But there is a push and pull to that when it comes to your recoverability and what it looks like for the goal of the training. And so I always look at the execution and intensity and I've even found when it comes to my clients, that the clients that normally our coaches themselves, they'll be like, I just want to learn from you or I just want the accountability. And then I'm like then I need to see the these videos and they're like, I know how to do the exercise, like I'm a coach too. And I was like, All right, then like, send the video, and I'll tell you, it's all good to go. And that's normally they are shocked, of like, Oh, I'm not having the best execution and this or I'm not having the right intensity within what I'm doing. And so I would highly recommend that if you are working with a coach to send videos to your coach, even if it feels like you don't want to whip out your phone in the gym, and you don't want to have the tripod and all that stuff. Again, that's one thing of are you willing to have less results by not having that slight discomfort of having your phone out? Or are you willing to take the video to make sure that you get the best results possible. And so I would highly recommend that you're sending in regular videos, that's something we also say, as the clients that have the best results. Time and time again, are the clients that regularly send an exercise videos. And I will even like nag, some of my clients have like I haven't seen videos in this amount of weeks. And like I need to check back on this, instead of just saying we're going through the motions. The most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgment, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive. And coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help and Philip really embody all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits. So if you have a coach, then go ahead and send them a video, if you don't have a coach, then I will have a video that I'm going to send a fill up for him to put in the show notes. But it's me going through like RP and intensity. And I think that that's going to be really, really helpful because I go through a whole training session or most of our training session, and I talk through in my head of why I'm writing it a certain RPE. And what you have to keep in mind for them. And then our YouTube channel also has almost every exercise of how to do the exercise execution because that is so so important to be able to have the correct execution. But even just videoing yourself, like that goes such a long way, even if you don't have a coach that you're sending it to. Because I do not want you trying to look over in the mirror and make sure that your form is correct. Take a video of yourself, go back and watch it I do that personally still like yes, I have a coach and I send stuff to the coach, but not everything because sometimes I take a video and I'm like, Oh, I can just make this small tweak. And then I'm good to go. And I will watch our own videos, compare, make sure that it's all set, and use that time and time again. So regardless of if you have a coach or not, there is an actionable plan for you recording yourself training and being able to send that and again, having those honest conversations of is this hard? Versus is this reaching the actual RPE that I need to because I have very many times gone in, done a set and been like, Man, that was hard. I'm not gonna go up and wait. And then I think back and I say, How many more reps could I have done at that weight? And sometimes I will, I'll be like, Oh, that was hard. That was definitely an RP a. And then I'll ask myself, how many more reps could you have done, and I'll be like, maybe three or four. And it's like that just went from an eight to a six RPE real quick. And I realize how much stronger I am. And having that logbook is a big, big part of it. Because if you are not tracking things in a logbook, whether it's a digital logbook, or an actual logbook, then do not complain about your progress. I swear to God, do not complain about your progress if you are not tracking anything within your training, because I have notes and it not only helps me to cut out all the guessing of what weight I should go to even if the training stimulus changes, even if the order of the exercise change, even if anything changes, I can make a very, very, very good educated guess. And almost always be within five to 10 pounds of where I need to be on the first time I do something because of keeping that logbook, not just because oh, she's a coach, this is what she dedicates her time to and all of that. It's because I take the extra effort and I track these extra things. And I make notes. So it'll say this was a little bit easy starting off, go to this wait next week, or this is what it's not just keeping the weight because if you're like oh, I can keep track of like I did 80 pounds for this last time. It's like it's not just knowing your general wait for it because again, the rep range can change. The set number can change the tempo can change where it is in this session can change so many things. But then there's also different forms of improvement of it's not just I just increased in weight, you could have had better form at the same way. You could have had better engagement I The same way you could have had better tempo at the same way, you could have used the same weight and gotten more reps or done it for more sets or done it with less rest, and between the sets. So there's so many things that go into it. And there's no physical way unless you have a perfect photographic memory for you to not track those things and think that you're just going to go into the gym and know what to do. Because you're likely wasting your time trying to pick the right weight, than when you finally get to the right weight, you're you might have accumulated volume from trying to pick the right weight, you're elongating your sessions, you're making it confusing for yourself, and you're not being able to just go in there and train. And that's where people are also getting frustrated. Of I'm not able to see the results that I want. And it's like, yeah, because you're not going in there and tracking what you need to to get it done. So having a logbook is outside of just filming yourself is going to be a huge part of the intensity to make sure that you've got everything locked down. So once they are doing a podcast with someone you agree with everything, because then you're just like it is

Philip Pape 36:04

it is. But this is super important. What this section right here, I mean, literally, we just cut this out as its own masterclass. Because the answer to the question of what do we do for our training for glutes wasn't, you know, do these movements or follow this program, right, it was train hard execute, use the proper intensity, and here are the tools for how to do that this is applicable to everything in your training. And it's super important. And when you were talking about videos, I just again, I was chuckling inside because how many times have I told people just take a damn video, send it in, you're gonna you're gonna accelerate your personal growth so much from one video, versus banging your head against potentially terrible form for the next, you know, three months of your training that

Sue Bush 36:41

also compounding and causing aches and pains. And you're like, I can't train because I just feel awful. And it's like, yeah, or that could be because of how your training. Yeah,

Philip Pape 36:51

and it gets worse and worse as the load goes up, right? Because you're just doing bad form with heavier load, you're actually reminding me of other areas outside of fitness at all, like public speaking. I mean, one of the ways I got better at speaking was videoing myself and having other people look at it and myself look at it. Anything you do in life that you can record or take data, it goes back to your original principle is going to accelerate the growth. You mentioned some really good things right? Like not looking at the mirror, I think that's funny, because you could get really hurt like twisting your Yeah, look, don't do that. Even if the mirror is ahead of you just don't do that.

Sue Bush 37:24

I'm going to keep my check to make sure my spines in alignment, but then I'm going to actually just completely turn my spine and put it in a very an advantageous position. Yes,

Philip Pape 37:33

I mean, you know, maybe if you're doing bicep curls or something like that, it's fine. But and then you said log everything. And by logging, not just logging your training. You know, we do talk about that a lot like using a notebook or an app or whatever it makes sense. But like you said, there are many other kind of hidden variables, if you will, there's things that change from what you planned, there are the speed or the RPE, or AR AR, however you want to measure the intensity and the movement, which you can correlate with your video, like you said, are you slowing down or what is hard look like to you, because not everybody slows down the same way. And I found that like on certain movements, I'm going to slow down more than others as I get to that RPE. Also, I don't know if you mentioned it, but like all the stuffs happening outside the gym, like if you have that information as well, that's going to affect your training session, too. Even

Sue Bush 38:17

on my training log at the top of it, I say the time in which I'm training. So if ever a weight is off, or like you know, those times where you're just like this just felt hard today, or things just felt heavy today. So for that reason, I have things written at the top and I say what time I'm training, how many meals iPad, and then I just say the date that it is. And then if I have any extra notes. So if I say something like I'm on my cycle, I'm having cramps, or this is I ate too far away from when I'm training or if I just see it, and it's like, Hey, you're training at 5pm and you've only had two meals in, then that might affect how your strength is or I'll know how to pour night asleep last night, whatever it may be. So that when I'm looking back at numbers, it's not just I'm taking the number from last week and putting it into this week, I'm looking at the factors from the previous session and taking that into the following one. Because there's been so many times I've even surprised myself being in a place where it's like, okay, I was hitting this RP and this was really hard last session. And then the next session, I'm like, Oh, I just kind of zoomed past that way. And it was great. And it's not like, yes, there is the adaptations that you have in the growth. All of that is a part of it, for sure. But it's also the aspect of, okay, if you had better factors going into it, and you were able to be more primed for it, then you're going to have a better session. And that just it reinforces so many things by keeping that data. Because anytime I'm thinking like, Oh, that was hard, then I'll look back and I'll be like, Oh yeah, cuz you're doing 20 more pounds than you did the week before. So it's okay that it's difficult, or it was hard. That's because you didn't sleep well last night and you got over 8000 more steps than you normally get the day before so your legs might be a little bit sore. And so understanding the data and being able to take that into it. Fish allows you to, again, reframe things so much better, that you don't always have to fight against yourself. I learned, I guess it wasn't that many years ago. But I did learn within the past few years that life is a lot better when you're not constantly fighting yourself. There are many other things to fight with. There are many other things that you're going up against. There are many things outside of your control, but control the controllables. And don't fight against yourself. And so if I've seen a, these are the things going on, then I'm not going to take that and either tear myself down, or try to do the impossible up against what's already stacked. It's like, this is what I know to be true. What changes do I need to make because of that? Or what do I need to take into consideration because of that? So then it's not that I constantly feel like, my favorite is I'm hitting a plateau. It's like,

Philip Pape 40:53

the buzzword of the day it?

Sue Bush 40:56

Is it a plateau? Or did you just not know what data you are even looking at? And so you just stepped on the scale, maybe three times within a week, and it's the same number or you feel like your quote, use the same way and can't progress? It's like, let's look at the other data. And then let's really determine is this a plateau or not? Because I will tell you eight times out of 10 it's not normally a plateau?

Philip Pape 41:22

Yeah, so good. That's so good. That is the first thing is that 10 times out

Sue Bush 41:26

of 10. But you know, I'll give some people the benefit of the doubt that it could be so eight times out it did. Yeah.

Philip Pape 41:31

And I mean, if it's like if we define plateau is just data hasn't moved, factually, that may be a plateau, but like you said, there could be, you know, five variables playing against each other that kind of offset. And then therefore this, this one will didn't change. But something else is going on there. Even recently.

Sue Bush 41:46

I mean, I have had a lot go on personally in my life. That's been a lot. And so I could have been said, Oh, I'm plateaued right now. And it's like, no, it's just that fitness isn't the number one focus because your stress bucket is overflowing, and you only have one stress bucket. And so you had to bring training volume down. So that's just not the main thing that you're going to see progress. And right this second does not mean you're plateauing does not mean you'll never see results, it just means that you have to again, be honest with yourself about what's the priority, what you are dedicating your time and energy to and what that looks like, instead of just claiming that something isn't going the way that you want it to maybe you haven't given it enough time, and you just want things to happen faster. And I mean, spoiler alert, we'd all like things to happen faster, better, stronger, easier, all of that. But as my parents said, fair comes once a year, if you miss it, it's your own darn fault.

Philip Pape 42:41

There you go. There's another thing I said recently, it's, it's gonna go as fast as it's going to go if you're doing it, right. Like that's it, it's just gonna go as fast that's as fast as you can go is when you're doing it, right. It may be slower than you want. Okay, so now somebody is dialed in on their training and their execution, their intensity, they're taking videos, maybe they have a coach, or maybe they're just they're listening to these podcasts and actually taking action, like we suggest, they're logging everything, and now they're like my glutes still have more opportunity to get bigger. So we're 45 minutes in and now people want to know, Okay, does it come down to exercise selection programming, like what what are the next steps,

Sue Bush 43:17

I will say that it's not ever going to be one particular exercise or one rep scheme or a certain amount of sets or a specific intensity, there's not going to be a perfect answer for that. But if you have nailed down your intensity and your execution, and you're doing all the other things within food and rest and recovery, all that jazz, then I would say we're looking at exercise selection overall. And part of it like I kind of already talked about is going to be what exercises work for you. And that is not synonymous with what exercises do you like doing is going to be what exercises work for you. So a good example of this, and this goes even just hand in hand with glute training overall, back squats, back squats can 100% target your glutes. I'm not here to dispute that or to argue that that is a fact that you can target your glutes with a back squat. For me personally because of having a long torso and longer femurs back squat and targeting my glutes is very very difficult because of the forward lean necessary to target my glutes and how the bar path needs to go to allow it to be a movement where my hips are moving back. It is extremely difficult for me to do so output wise it doesn't make sense for me to hammer down and say well back squats are what the answer for me to get in. That's not saying you shouldn't do back squats to grow glutes just for me specifically might not be the best exercise for output. But I could swap that over to we actually have a Cybex squat press for leg press and that is mimicking the back squat. But with I have not only more stabilization so I can have more output but it just allows me to push harder be cuz I'm not having to worry about carrying this load and bending my body in this position, that doesn't always work for me. But talking about back squats in general, I would say that if you're trying to grow your glutes, they can be a part of the program. But I want to make it a main focus, just because when we look at the systemic fatigue, that is going to happen from doing back squats, because when we talk about exercise selection, we're not only talking about okay, what exercises are going to be best. But we also want to keep in mind what that looks like for your overall intensity, and then your overall volume, and how much volume because when we're looking at hypertrophy, when we're looking at growth, it is going to be a volume gain to a certain extent, and how much volume you can get on the muscle. If we're using back squats as our main mover for glutes, you can't get in as many back squats or after you do your set of back squats, if you try to go into a bunch of other glute movements, you are not only going to be absolutely taxed from the whole fatigue for your whole body that went into the back squats. But it's also putting you in a place where I mean that's going to go into you can't perform other exercises. And that's even something within programming that people get hurt because they do something and they are going at a certain intensity, then they try to go into another movement that is going to require a lot of stabilization, like a back squat requires a lot of stabilization, because there's not that extra stabilization in place like machines create stabilization for you. And so if you're thinking about how can I bias this and not have my other muscles or the muscle I need to work get so fatigued, then you want to keep that in mind. But I also like to be able to think about what it looks like for what position you're training that muscle in. So there's research to show that lengthen position is best for hypertrophy. But all three lengths are going to be needed to have more complete growth, like more total growth overall. So when I always mention those back to back, because I don't want someone to say okay, I'm only going to do lengthen exercises, because they do go you need to do all of them within shorten mid range and lengthen, to be able to have the best growth overall. So what I would advise that obviously, this is going to be more general information. Overall, I'm not personally programming for each and every one of you. But I would say pick two exercises that challenge the glutes most in the lengthen position, and then one to two exercises that challenge the glutes most in the shortened position. So some examples of this for being able to get in the lengthen position are going to be like a bent knee RDL that would be great for getting your glutes in lengthened position, or like I already mentioned, have a leg press when you have the right foot positioning and all of that to be able to get the glutes in the lengthened position as well as just because of squat slash a leg press or going to be like a split squat, that type of movement, you're doing a squat movement, then a split squat is another great option to get your glutes in that lengthened position. And then for getting them in the shortened position, we want to take a look at something like a barbell Glute Bridge, or a glute Meade kickback, or even like a 45 degree hip extension. So you basically want to pick two exercises that do the lengthened to that do the shortened and then be able to use those to challenge the glutes again, most in totality. And by simply doing these exercises are not going to ipso facto get to the glutes of your dreams. It's being able to train hard over time with proper program design and progressions. And but it's just something to keep in mind. Why? Because I always like to give something actionable, instead of just talking in huge generalities. And then people are like, Well, how do I apply that to myself, of here's some action that you can take of making sure that you're training things in the lengthen in the shorten, being able to really get good at those exercises and get after that, because I also think I know I talked about volume, but people think more is better. And that's not always the case with anything in life. But people think I need to be training glutes three times a week to see growth. And I can tell you that you can see plenty of growth with training them two times a week, and maybe even better growth because you have the proper time to recover in between, which means that you're going to have more strength and output during the sessions that you're doing them to be able to see the growth that you want to be able to see overall. And I also find that when people are programming that they might program just because they want to be like intense or they want to feel sore, they want to do as many leg movements people to kind of go into the gym and be like, what's a leg movement or what's a glute movement, I'm going to destroy my glutes, where people then end up basically doing the same movement pattern over and over and over again. In fact, Alex was just telling me that like the rock walked through, like his leg workout for something. And it was that he started with a 45 degree leg press. Then he went into a vertical leg press. Then he went into a hack squat. Then he went into like a split squat. And then he went into something where it was Just like the squat movement the whole time, and it's like you didn't have any hinge, you didn't have any hip extension, we need to be able to work the glutes through all of those ranges. And that's what I see is that people just like, duplicate what they're trying to do. And it's like, instead of being like, Okay, I'm going to do back squat, then I'm going to do leg press, then I'm going to do a split squat, because these are all leg and glute exercises, like, let's be a little bit more intelligent with this, and think, How can I have a squat? How can I have a hinge? How can I get to hip extension, and being able to include all of that within your training, and again, you don't need to annihilate yourself with 20 different exercises, I can tell you can get the job done with four or five exercises, and you will be good if again, you're having the correct intensity, the correct execution, and being able to I guess that's with execution of like knowing how to actually engage the muscle, instead of just thinking, How do I get from point A to point B? It's like, how do I make sure the tension is on the muscle. And that's something where I'm not going to sit here and act like I'm an anatomy expert. Maybe Alex could say that about himself. But I will not say that about myself. But what I will say is understanding or learning a little bit about anatomy is going to help you largely because your understanding of again, not so much that point A to point B, but why you're trying to move things. And I'm not saying you need to memorize exactly where the origin and insertion point is, of all of the muscles, because those are a lot of long and confusing names. And it might confuse you are discouraged, you have like I don't understand this. And again, you don't need to, but knowing generally of like, okay, for my lat, it's actually going to attach on the back of my upper arm. So that means I'm going to need to have a neutral grip to hit my lap more. And I want to think about lowering this upper arm first, instead of just pulling my arm through like that's going to help you understand things better. If you just know, some generalities of this originates in this area. And this, like inserts in this area so that you can have that better picture, you can have that better visual of what you need to do when you're going through the movement.

Philip Pape 52:08

Yeah, I think that's important. I mean, that sets us for almost a form of mind muscle connection or whatever phrase you want to use to be aware of how your body moves, and not repetitively hitting the same movements that I just just to kind of wrap up those takeaways. And then I think we have time for maybe a couple more questions before we wrap up is number one, doing movements that work for you. And like you said, if you have if your lengths are such that you have a very horizontal back angle with like a low bar squat, just to get sitting back, and the massive fatigue that comes with that you're probably not hitting your glutes too much, right? Whereas like, I know, my backing on the back squat, I get sore glutes. So for me that that's something that hits them and I don't want bigger glutes. So I'll also not do that. Scott, I'm just getting. The other thing is this the fatigue and stimulus kind of balance or you know, similar fatigue ratio of knowing what biases, the things that you don't want to come along for the ride. So you mentioned machines can give you stability, sometimes that's a people criticize that aspect of machines. In your case, you're saying take advantage of that, because now you can isolate the movement that or the muscle that you care about. You also mentioned working across the lengths. And that led to the discussion of like proper diversity of these exercises, and again, knowing your insertions. So really good principles for any part of the body, not just glutes, which I love these discussion, because it is very principle based. If I messed anything up, let me know. I did want to ask a tangent to this because we had somebody in our community. We had a bunch of questions when I couldn't get to them all. But Denise asked about movements that are gentle on the back because she had back surgery. A lot of people haven't back surgery these days, you know, herniated discs and all that. And she said certain exercises like deadlifts, or the glute machine will seem to aggravate her back now. And she's asking if it's a core issue. Now I know you can't, you would want to ask her 10 questions to find out what's really going on. But is there anything that jumps to your mind of like, general advice in that area,

Sue Bush 53:56

in your core is going to play a role in that of just how you are executing that movement and being able to engage things because oftentimes you hear like deadlifts hurt my back, where it can just be of how you're setting up the movement or how you're even initiating the movement of maybe the setup is great, but then you're just pulling from your lower back because you don't know how to engage those other muscles. But I would say that things were again, you have more stability, I know you mentioned the glute machine causing some issues. But I would really be able to go back look at videos either of yourself, watching videos of someone performed the movement, and then being able to go through it. But again, the more stability that you can create while still training your core, I would highly recommend to really look at your core and like Phillip mentioned at the beginning your core isn't just your abs, it's going to be like your whole trunk and core box. So that is going to include a lot of things that a lot of time to blur just looking at the ABS overall. So really being able to think about what that looks like for your whole core because that is going to be huge and being able to all also create like the internal intra abdominal pressure to be able to do some of those movements like being able to perform a deadlift, you have to be able to create that internal pressure and your core to be able to truly perform that without hurting your back. So I would say it could be a core issue, but it also could be making sure that the movements are going to be the best for you, overall. Yeah,

Philip Pape 55:24

and I mean, I will say, for having trained all the years, I've trained still to this day, if I'm just a little sloppy, am I already else, I know I'm gonna have a sore back the next day, because you know, there's certain movements where you've got to be tight, you've got to brace. Sometimes you wear a belt, or whatever makes sense, depending on the movement, but I love that. So, okay, I like to ask this question of all guests. So before we wrap up here, and that is, is there any question you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?

Sue Bush 55:47

I wish you had asked what I am personally doing to grow my glutes and answer that I am doing the PD glute program to grow my glutes. So it's actually a 16 week program, which if you follow it, I can guarantee that you are going to see glute growth, which I know there's not a lot of guarantees in this world. But I will guarantee if you actually put in the effort, you will see the results from this. This is a program that we spent years working on trialing different sessions on clients trialing different phases on clients being able to work through what was going to be best. And then I ran through the 16 week program once we had it finish. And I saw throughout the 16 weeks, I saw three inches of blue growth. Now, of course, and I know we kind of mentioned that we'd circle back to it. So I'll loop it into this so that we can wrap it up, wrap it all up with a bow on it of gaining loot tissue and possibly some extra body fat. And just in general, I would say that first we need to keep in mind that muscle weighs something period. So even if you are saying I want to gain five pounds of glute tissue, no fat whatsoever, that means that the scale is going to go up at least five pounds. But with that to gain muscle, you cannot gain muscle completely without gaining any type of fat. But you can minimize that fat gain, which I think is where people get really backwards is they want to think I want to gain no fat. But instead you should really say how can I limit the amount of fat that I am going to gain. And so that's something that we really worked on. And we also have a podcast episode about how to properly be in a surplus. And what it was kind of thought of, I need to be in this massive bulk and I need to eat all this food. That's like, yes, you need to eat food, if you want to grow a big ass like that's facts, but is also going to be the aspect that you don't need to be like eating so much food, we can be in a very small surplus and still see the results for wanting if again, that intensity and recovery is linked in together, they all work together. So it's not going to be just if if I train really hard in the gym, and then I never sleep, then I'm all good to go. Or if I eat all this food and I do this, then it's all said it's going to be multiple things that work together in that. So you don't need to gain a ton of fat, but you are likely going to gain a little bit. But also you can hope that some of that goes to, to your behind as a whole. But within the program, I'm actually running it again for the second time I took about I don't know maybe it was six to eight weeks of I was just doing like 30 minute sessions by and doing full body sessions because that's all I could mentally and personally handle. And throughout that time, even with a lot going on. Personally, I was able to maintain the glute size that I had grown, I think that it only the most I quote unquote lost was half an inch. But as soon as I started eating enough again, and training again, that came back pretty quickly. And I was able to maintain the glute size that I put on, even without having the program in place. And then I'm rerunning the program as a whole. But the main reason I want to mention it is that while it is a 16 week program, we actually decided to give away the first four weeks for free to really be able to get people into it to see how great it was to see what those results looked like. And I just want everyone to have nice glutes. So I will have that link in the show notes for if you are interested in growing your glutes and you are like, Okay, I took the actionable things, but I'd rather have like a surefire plan, then I would highly recommend jumping in on that. And then purchasing the other 12 weeks afterwards. Because the 16 weeks as a whole is where you're really going to see the results. Because there is that progression, like I talked about, the way that you're going to see results over time is having the proper programming and the proper progression. And so we actually set it up perfectly that those first four weeks, no matter what training you're coming from, because oftentimes maybe someone's coming from a type of training and then they're going into another one and it's not geared the best and that shift the volume allocations are can be a lot of things at play. So those first four weeks is basically getting you all set on all the movement patterns and getting you all set on volume. So no matter what training phase you're coming from, that's going to kind of, quote unquote reset where you're at. And then you'll be able to go into the 12 weeks and just like exponentially see the results from there and get you to where you want to go. So that is what I'm doing right now I am extremely passionate about it just because of the time that went into it as well as I've reaped the benefits from it, and I just want to shout it from the mountains. And someone even called my results fake, which then made my ego way too big, because I was like, I have never had enough glutes or another muscle for someone to claim that it's fake. I'm like I will take you have no idea what that just did for my ego, you probably meant it as a major dis, but it really, really pumped me up there. But I just want other people to have that too.

Philip Pape 1:00:41

But so with all these goodies that you're giving my audience the glute program, plus, you mentioned the video about RPE and intensity. Yeah, we're gonna have a bunch of well deluded people that's not even worth walking around. All right, so where can listeners learn more about you, we'll definitely have those call outs in the show notes. But any anywhere else you want them to find you

Sue Bush 1:01:00

I would say the main place that you can find and interact with me would be Instagram and it's su Gaines su e g, a i n z, you're wondering where that name came from? It actually was from the fact that I went to a two Chainz concert in college, and then I became Sue chains. And so then when I started fitness, it just made sense to become Sue Gaines. So from Instagram, you can basically find anything else that you need from me. But I'll also have a podcast but you can go over and hear Philip on as well. That's right.

Philip Pape 1:01:31

That's right. All right. I'll put that all that in the show notes as usual at SU gains, the bonus video, the glute program, all that amazing stuff. This was awesome Sue, even better than I as great as I thought it would be having you on here to talk about this because it was very principle based and super helpful, no matter who you are, male, female, what you're going after in the world of training to get that physique you want. So thank you so much for coming on. So

Sue Bush 1:01:51

thank you for having me.

Philip Pape 1:01:54

Philip Pape 5/7/24 Philip Pape 5/7/24

Ep 170: How Fast Should You Lose Weight for Fat Loss?

What is the sweet spot between shedding fat and preserving muscle? How can diet breaks and refeeds help you achieve your fat loss goal? Is rapid fat loss the secret sauce to fine-tuning your physique?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) uncovers the truth about the ideal rate of fat loss, exploring the full spectrum of approaches from slow and steady to rapid and aggressive and everything in between. He explains the pros and cons of each strategy, highlighting the benefits you gain from each approach. He discusses how to incorporate diet breaks and refeeds for optimal results, providing you with practical strategies for long-term, sustainable diet management that will leave you feeling motivated.

Whether you’re a beginner looking to lose your first 20 pounds or an experienced dieter aiming to get shredded, this episode serves as a valuable guide. Philip aims to give you a clearer understanding of how to navigate your weight loss journey, emphasizing the importance of making informed, strategic choices for your individual goals and lifestyle.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:25 Five-star reviews on Apple podcast
5:50 How fast CAN you lose weight without losing muscle mass
12:37 The benefits of the slow and steady approach
16:39 The conservative fat loss approach
22:17 Incorporating diet breaks for mental and metabolic benefits
24:32 The standard fat loss approach
34:47 Incorporating refeeds, not cheat days, for the mental break
37:39 The mini cut or aggressive approach
45:41 The micro cut or rapid fat loss approach
54:23 How to choose the fat loss approach that is right for you
1:00:00 Outro

Episode resources:

Learn about Weights Physique University (now open for enrollment at a new, more affordable bi-weekly price)

Episode summary:

When it comes to body transformation, finding the sweet spot between losing fat and preserving muscle is often akin to walking a tightrope. In this episode, Philip discusses this balancing act, offering insights and strategies that can help listeners navigate the complex path to achieving optimal body composition.

The conversation begins with the importance of understanding the ideal pace of weight loss for one's unique goals. Philip emphasizes that there isn't a one-size-fits-all solution; rather, individual circumstances dictate whether a slow and steady or a more aggressive approach is suitable. The key is to find a method that not only yields results but also meshes with one's lifestyle and can be sustained over time.

Listeners are then guided through the potential perils of rapid weight loss. While shedding pounds quickly can be tempting, it often comes at the expense of muscle mass and can lead to metabolic slowdown, making it harder to maintain weight loss in the long run. Philip underscores the necessity for a well-calibrated plan that prioritizes patience and adherence to a structured diet.

For individuals with a history of disordered eating, the hosts advocate a conservative approach to weight loss. They highlight the importance of establishing a healthy relationship with food before embarking on a calorie deficit. A slower pace is recommended, as it allows for a less restrictive caloric intake and a lower likelihood of triggering unhealthy eating patterns.

Moving on to strategies for managing long-term dieting, the hosts discuss the role of diet breaks and refeeds. These planned intermissions in a calorie deficit can provide psychological relief and help offset metabolic adaptation. By temporarily increasing calorie intake, one can maintain momentum in their weight loss journey without succumbing to burnout or excessive cravings.

The conversation shifts to the transformative power of physique development, particularly for individuals in their 30s and beyond. Philip shares his experience with Wits and Weights Physique University, a program designed to support listeners in achieving their best physique through personalized nutrition plans and workout programs. The discussion touches on the significance of setting realistic goals and being disciplined in meeting calorie and macro targets for successful fat loss.

Finally, the concept of the mini cut is examined—a short-term, intense weight loss strategy often utilized after a muscle-building phase. The hosts clarify that a mini cut is best suited for those who are already fairly lean and are looking to fine-tune their physique. They recommend a specific rate of weight loss and a time frame for undertaking this focused effort.

Listeners are left with a clear understanding of the various approaches to achieving optimal body composition. From the slow and steady to the rapid and aggressive, the episode provides a comprehensive guide for anyone looking to sculpt their physique intelligently, with sustainability and muscle preservation at the forefront of the strategy.

In summary, the episode serves as a testament to the notion that successful body transformation is not merely about losing weight—it's about making informed, strategic choices that lead to a healthier, stronger, and more confident self. It's about the journey as much as the destination, and with the right guidance, listeners are empowered to embark on this journey with confidence and clarity.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

How fast should you lose weight for the best results when it comes to body composition? Is there a sweet spot rate of loss that's optimal for losing fat while maintaining muscle? You'll find the answers in today's episode as we lay out the entire spectrum of safe and effective rates of weight loss for every physique goal with some surprises along the way, including times when you might actually be dieting for much longer than you think and times when an extremely rapid approach can be right for you all that and more in today's episode of Whitson wits.

Philip Pape 00:33

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the weights and weights podcast. In our last episode 169 q&a with Jeff Hoehn menopause weight loss bulking without getting fat and cutting on low sleep. I was joined by Jeff Hoehn of the mind muscle connection podcast very special co hosted q&a where we answered questions on rest periods for muscle growth, managing your diet unlimited sleep, what to do if you're gaining too much weight in a bulk, how to transition your training from a bulk to a cut, menopause and weight loss resistance for women over 50. And how to prep ahead of time for inevitable holiday feasting. Today for episode 170. How fast should you lose weight for fat loss, we are uncovering the truth about the optimal rate of weight loss for sustainable fat loss will explore the full spectrum of approaches from slow and steady to rapid and aggressive and everything in between, you'll learn the pros and cons of each strategy, how to incorporate diet breaks and refeeds for optimal results, and the principles that apply to every successful fat loss plan because those never change whatever speed you go after it. Whether you're a beginner looking to lose your first 20 pounds of fat or you're an experienced diet or trying to get shredded. My goal is to give you a clearer understanding of how to choose the right rate of loss for your individual goals, and lifestyles. Now, before we dive in, I did want us to check out some of the recent five star reviews on Apple, where we've now got over 125 reviews and counting. So thank you to everyone who's taken the time to submit a review. That is honestly one of the best ways you can support the show because it lets others see what the experience is what you've been learning how people react to the show. And it creates what they call social proof. So if you're watching this rate, or listening to this right now, and you've never ever submitted a rating or review, please just take a moment, I'm okay if you just want to pause right now, since you're in the your podcast, app, Apple, Spotify, especially Apple, go to the five star rating and review, tap the button that says write a review, type in some nice loving words and submit it. Now if you don't intend to give me a five star review, that's cool. But I'd rather you reach out to me directly with your feedback, because I listened to what you guys tell me about the show, whether it's the guests that you might not like or the content, or maybe I have gone too far in one direction or another if things aren't quite supported by the evidence. And I heard it. And I'm listening to that feedback and continuing to adjust the show to improve quality over time. So what might be in your mind one star right now because you just found the show and for whatever reason didn't like an episode or two. And I've seen that happen with reviews, where you know, I wish they would just give it a chance and listen to a few more episodes. Or maybe it's just not for them. But you know, when you do a one star review, it really punches me in the gut, but it does give me feedback. So if you're planning to do that, I would just just DM me on Instagram, send me an email and say, hey, you know, I don't like the show. And here's why. And I'm going to talk to you about it and get your feedback. And guess what, I'm probably going to make a change if it makes sense for the audience. Now not every show is great for everyone. And that's the way the cookie crumbles as they say. So here are three quick reviews from our audience. First one is from LCD D 12. so useful. I stumbled across this podcast and I'm so happy with what I found. I've been looking for actually useful and concrete tips on my health journey and discovered that and so much more. I can't wait to keep listening as I continue my journey. The next review is from at Kim's do inspired tips for us over 40 Women are priceless. What a great discovery for my health. Thanks Philip for helping us weed through all the advice, especially as we age to find the best tips for losing weight and gaining muscle without sacrificing our health along the way. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to find a approach that works for the remaining years and decades of our wonderful vibrant lives. Right is Stay Healthy, Be Fit have that muscle but not sacrifice our health or our lives.

Philip Pape 05:00

Along the way, all right. And the last one is from for fam, I have a couple dogs, we also have some hamsters and chickens as well, chickens don't effort, but still they're part of our family. And this review says strategy, I really appreciate the strategic approach to health and nutrition with focusing on muscle mass. So incredibly helpful. I couldn't have summed it up better a strategic approach. That's what it is. We're about efficiency about doing it smart. You know, smart, Li, intelligently, time efficiently, all of those things and just cutting through the noise, right? Kind of like a recent episode when I talked about reverse dieting being a waste of time. I've gotten some great comments on that saying, You know what, I tried what you said, and you're right, it actually worked. Like I didn't have to prolong this with a reverse diet, I was able to recover right away. I didn't gain any fat, I might have gained a few pounds of water weight when I came back. But it worked. So that's what we're looking for. Alright, let's get into today's topic. I know you guys want to learn all about the various rates of weight loss, why the pros, the cons, the whole thing? How fast should you lose weight for fat loss? So we're going to start with that question. Right? How fast but another angle on that is? How fast can you lose weight and not lose muscle mass? Because that is what we're really talking about? Because of the answer is how fast should you lose weight? All right, there are a lot of factors that go into that, including Why the heck we want to lose weight in the first place. I was asked recently on a podcast. In fact, it was the physique development podcast with Sue Bush, which is I think the next episode is her on this show. But anyway, she asked me, Why do you think people struggle with dieting with weight loss? And I think my answer was, because a lot of people shouldn't even be dieting in the first place. Right? It shouldn't be, or they're doing it for the wrong reasons. And so, before we get into, like, how fast you lose weight, if you found this podcast, if you haven't followed our stuff for very long, and you're like, Yeah, I just want to lose weight, I want to lose weight on the scale. That is not what we're talking about. Yes, we are talking about measuring fat loss via a loss and body mass, right, via a form of quote unquote dieting, or a calorie deficit, not dieting, like the Keto or carnivore diet yet, but just the idea of being in a calorie deficit to release some of that energy. But we're doing it in a way that's both sustainable, right? Not necessarily sustainable for the period of fat loss, but in a sustainable way for life. So anytime you do it, it's sustainable, but also in a way that preserves muscle mass, okay, not just losing weight on the scale, but actually maintaining that muscle. And for some of you newer lifters, you might even build a little bit of muscle as you do this. And the wonderful thing here is there's a whole spectrum of approaches, and today we're talking about rates of loss. So I'm gonna go very logically, from slow and steady all the way to rapid and aggressive. And the best one for you today, in this phase of your lifestyle of your training of your year, is going to depend right on a variety of factors. So I'm gonna go over each of these and tell you what those are. All right. Before we get into the rates, though, and I know you're like, oh, what does he do and get into it? I do want to talk about why this whole idea is even important. Like, why do we care about rates of loss and all of that, it does come back to sustainability, the S word, it's the boring S word, that's, nonetheless, the key to everything here. The key to getting to your goals successfully, is doing it in a way that builds routines and habits and some inherent self discipline, you know, occasionally doing hard things a push your comfort zone, but not going all out with the all or nothing approach, and not doing things just to get it quickly done at all costs, right? That's what we mean by sustainability. So while I'm going to eventually get to a very rapid approach to fat loss, but at the very end, even with that approach, there's a context of sustainability around it, okay, of how we approach it. So that's what we want to do it put on those thinking hats and critical thinking hats, and do this the right way. Because if you lose weight too quickly, which is very tempting for a lot of you I know, I know it is, I've been there many times. All right, I've done the low carb diets to do it. I've done crazy diets like to get ready for my wedding, I lost a ton of weight. And I just looked scrawny and skinny fat. So it can be tempting, you know, especially if you have a lot of weight to lose. I mean, if you're, you know, 50 100 200 pounds overweight, and you want to lose that you might be desperate to do it, right. But rapid weight loss will come at a cost if not done the right way. Right? Because when you drastically start cutting calories, or you start doing all this extra training or cardio, your body starts to look for resources elsewhere, where does it find those resources, it finds it in your muscle tissue, you're not eating enough food, you're moving too much your body's trying to conserve and find energy wherever it can. And it's like, well, you're not giving me the foods, I'm gonna use some of that muscle tissue, and then your metabolism slows down further. And then it's harder to lose even more weight and then even once you do, it's hard to keep the weight off in the long run. And I use the word weight a lot today and weight loss. At the end of the day. I really care about fat loss but

Philip Pape 10:00

When you have anything more than a decent percentage of body fat, there's going to be an element of weight loss to lose the fat as well. They go hand in hand they correlate, right. But we want that weight to be fat, not muscle. The other thing is when you go too fast into a diet, you're going to experience a ramp up in, of course, metabolic adaptation, where your metabolism declines, and the symptoms and biofeedback that comes with that hunger cravings, even mood swings, right hang being angry. And if done too quickly, those things ramp up too quickly. That's what leads to binge eating, and weight regain. We've talked about it a lot. We've talked about body fat overshooting, check out the history of our podcasts, you'll see episodes on body fat overshooting on fat loss versus weight loss. I think I've talked about rates of weight loss a long time ago as well. Regardless, we don't want to do it too quickly. On the other hand, if you lose weight too slowly, that can be a problem too, because it can be frustrating that you don't see the change, right? It might happen over time over like months. But that's, you know, we as humans, we want these quick wins. I don't want a quick fix. But I do want quick wins. And that can be frustrating and demotivating, because you're seeing these very small changes on the scale. And in fact, because they're so small, from a fat loss perspective, they tend to be outweighed by the daily fluctuations from water weight. And that can be even more discouraging, because you're trying to go in a slightly downward direction. And you get these big jumps all the time. And you look from, say, Sunday to Sunday, and the weights the same, even though it kind of went generally down, but then it may be popped up on Sunday. Again, that can be very discouraging. And that's one of the things I actually deal with my clients, especially when they're newer in the process, where they're like, I see the trend going down. I've seen lower numbers on the scale. But then today, I was right back where it was a week ago. And my response is, let's be patient, you're doing all the right things. You're in the deficit, we know your expenditure, we've adjusted the calories and macros just keep going for now, right? If there's a true plateau, I'll let you know. And the way we didn't generally do it, you know, with my coaching and Whitson weights physique University, the approach we take is designed to avoid plateaus altogether, because we're being proactive, we're getting ahead of it. But anyway, weight loss of to slow can be frustrating. And so we want to find that balance in between for you, that allows you to lose fat at a steady pace, while preserving your muscle mass, while maintaining your energy as best as possible. And even Yes, while enjoying your food, that is a variable here. Because if your dieting plan takes you 12 months, and you feel like to do that, you're cutting out all the foods you enjoy, that's not sustainable, right, that's not sustainable. So here we go, we're gonna start with a very conservative approach the slow and steady, okay, slow and steady. And this involves losing weight at a rate of around a quarter to a half percent of your body weight per week. So anything less than a quarter percent of your body per week is probably too slow to really be meaningful, it's almost close to maintenance, and it's going to take way too long, and it's gonna be frustrating. So at least a quarter and then up to a half percent of your body weight per week. So if you weigh 200 pounds, that's a half to one pound per week. Now, that may not sound like much if you come from the like crash dieting world, or you've done the yo yo diet. So you like did keto and you lost 40 pounds in a month. That doesn't sound like much. But it is exactly what the evidence shows is very reasonable to avoid losing muscle. And at that slower rate, you can have more calories to work with, which then comes into the sustainability piece and the adherence piece of this, this approach is great for several types of people. If you're brand new to this whole macros and dieting thing, it might be great for you just because we don't want to have a massive change. And all of a sudden, you have to figure out all the hacks and all the techniques for how do I cut, you know, 1000 calories out of my diet overnight. And that's a struggle. And that's a big challenge for some people. So if you're new to dieting, my brand new clients, in fact, if you come through with some weights, physique University, you're like, I don't want aggressive fat loss or any other form of fat loss, you're gonna get a rate that's closer to the half percent, rather than higher than that. And it might be less, it might be like point two 5% If you're going for something like a body recomp. Okay, so by taking things slowly, there are a few benefits here. One is that you give your body time and your mind time to adapt to the changes in your diet and your training. So each day, you're just making these small changes. They're simple. You're swapping your lunch, decide on your lunch, maybe you're swapping it from rice, and now it's going and becoming brussel sprouts, right? You're adding in a little protein here, and maybe dropping a snack here, right? It's like simple changes you can make in the first few weeks. You get used to it, you see what it feels like you get through the hunger pangs of the first week because the first few weeks of a diet at any rate. It messes with your mind a little bit from a hunger perspective. It's more psychological than physiological like it's a lot having to do with the habituation of. Okay, I've been eating at 3pm snack every day. Now I'm cutting that out because I'm reducing my calories. And all of this stuff is great for setting you up for sticking with it for a while, obviously prevents muscle loss and metabolic adaptation. Here's the thing. muscle loss will occur in a diet if you go too fast, or you're not training hard enough. So we're not really addressing the training piece here. But the assumption is your training with the proper intensity and execution, very similar to you were when you were at maintenance or in a building face, it doesn't really change much. And in fact, the cohosted episode with Jeff Hoehn, we talked about that, like how do you transition from a bulk to a cut in terms of your training, right. And the key messages keep training is if you're building muscle, you may have to change some of the volume and the programming for recovery. Right recovery is like a very important variable during fat loss, but the intensity of execution doesn't change. So assuming you've got that the slower rate of loss at about a quarter to half percent, is going to be really nice for not even getting close to that point of losing muscle strength. And you might even see your lifts continue to go up for a while. And then while you're doing this, you can start to develop those new sustainable habits that you can stick to in the long run. Even when you're not in fat loss, a lot of the habits are going to be roughly the same, like having high satiety foods, having high fiber foods, having mostly Whole Foods, but yes, still fitting in indulgences that you enjoy, right? Figuring out your meal timing, figuring out your workout, and Perry workout nutrition, that is a much better position to be in. Rather than burning out after a few weeks, because you went way too hard, you got some results, but then you couldn't take it anymore. So I talked about people new to diet and why that's important. Another population where this is very helpful, is when you have a lot of weight to lose, if you have 50 100 pounds or more to lose, it might be a good idea to go conservative for a couple of reasons. One is, it's going to take you a while to get to your goal. And I know on one hand, you're thinking well, then I want to go very aggressively. So I get it over with quickly. But the problem is going aggressively, is you have to go aggressively for a lot longer than someone else would have to go aggressively. And that can quickly burn you out. Whereas if you go a little bit more conservatively, you could probably last a lot longer, like more than the math, you know, like if you could go half as long, rapid or twice as long conservative, you'll probably find that twice as long conservative is actually much more doable. Because on a daily basis, you're eating a decent amount of food, and you can kind of get used to that. Whereas mentally the rapid approach is like, Oh, wow, this is a slog, it's gonna seem like a lot longer time, just because it's so aggressive. Alright, so if you have a lot of weight to lose, going conservatively can help. The other reason that can help in that population is you have excess reserves to pull from with your excess body fat storage, where your body treats that as extra calories. And so if you go into like a point 252 point 5% your body weight per week, conservative deficit, your body may experience that as continuing to be at maintenance or even in a slight surplus. And that's going to be amazing for your training for your body composition development, it'll probably accelerate the fat loss, you know, because you're building muscle and losing fat. And so what will probably happen is even though your weight on the scale is going down, at a certain rate, your actual dropping body fat is going to outpace that you're going to drop more body fat than the weight on the scale tells you because you've gained muscle in the process. So that's a great place to be. And then the only other population I wanted to quickly mention here for the conservative approach is someone who has a history of disordered eating. All right now, disclaimer, I do not dispense medical advice. I don't deal with you know, actual medical conditions really to psychological conditions for disordered eating. If you're in the throes of that right now, if that's part of your life now, definitely go address that, you know, work with a mental professional for that, to address it before you get into using tracking and macros and all these things. But if you have a history of it, and you've moved, you've processed through that, and you have a healthy relationship with food now, which is something you want to develop before you even think of going into a diet anyway. All right, and my next solo episode next week is gonna be all about 15 times 15 situations where you do not want to be dieting, and I'm gonna address some of those things. But let's say you've move past and you no longer have an issue with disordered eating, you still may want to go at a more conservative rate just to be kind to yourself, give yourself that little bit of room to test the waters. Now the downside of a conservative approach to weight loss is it takes longer, that's it takes longer to see results. And that can be frustrating if you're eager to get more lean. If you're somebody like me who I know I can go more aggressively, I can go more aggressively on more calories than someone else. And so it would just be holding me back. Right. So depending on who you are, typically if you have a higher metabolic rate, you're more advanced training, ie, you're probably going to end up going with more and more aggressive approaches here. Either way, so whether you're excess weight to lose, you're newer at this and you're taking a conserve approach, there is an element of patience and consistency in all these approaches, but especially this one from a time perspective, and that can be tough if you've got a busy lifestyle, if you have a lot of social commitments you'd like to go out to eat. However, doing it at a conservative rate actually helps in those situations as well, because it's not, as I'll use the word restrictive, just from a pure calorie perspective, okay. And in any of these approaches, by the way, you can take breaks, you can use refeeds. And when you're going at a conservative approach, the refeed, or the break isn't that much of a jump from where you are in terms of your calories. And you can see that as a pro or con, you know, it's a pro, because you're not going to slow your progress that much by doing it, it can be a con, because it doesn't feel like you're really eating that much more food. But that's also a pro, because it implies that the amount of food you've been eating isn't that low anyway, Alright, anyway, if you're willing to play that long game, and you like the fact that it gives you more calories to work with and you have a decent amount of weight to lose this approach, this conservative approach can be a very safe and effective way to lose fat, and then keep it off. Because you don't get to that point of like ravenous hunger, you don't get to the point of feeling like you're depriving yourself and you need to binge back when the diet is done, it's done you up your calories a bit to recover, and you move on. So this can be great. Oh, one more thing comes to mind. Just keep in mind right now, one of my clients, he has a much lower metabolic rate, the typical man of his size, let's just say and so for him, any diet is going to be, by definition, moderately conservative, lest he be at a ridiculously low number of calories. So if you don't have a very high metabolic rate, and this applies to a lot of females and smaller individuals, then you may I'm not gonna be stuck, but it kind of limits your options. Calorie wise, you may have to go at a conservative rate just for that reason. Now, can you improve that over time, I believe so I believe with a few cycles over a few years of really solid building of muscle, and increasing your metabolic rate that way, as well as you know, moving a bit more like in terms of walking low grade cardio, and that can help. And then you could push it a little bit more aggressively. But just be aware that you may have constraints as an individual and just have to acknowledge those like, that's just reality. Okay, now, what are we going to do about it? Now, I mentioned briefly, diet breaks one strategy that makes this approach more bearable, because this is a long time based approach. And that's what can wear on you psychologically is not the calorie so much is the duration, we can take a diet break, you can take a one week, a two week break every, say 812 weeks, kind of like taking a D load and you're training, and then just eat it maintenance calories, all you have to do is up your carbs for that time and eat at maintenance. And here's a little trick, if you're using macro factor, right macro factor, best food logging app on the market, use my code, which N weights to get an extra free week on your trial. If you're using macro factor and you have it set to lose weight to go to maintenance for a break, what you can do is you can edit the goal to move the rate of loss down to almost zero, so you're effectively leaving the goal in place, but telling it that you want to lose at almost a zero rate of loss. And that gets the targets very close to your maintenance calories. And then you could just slightly overshoot it to slightly overshoot it to truly hit your maintenance, maintenance being your current metabolism, your current expenditure. Okay, so a diet break is usually like one to two weeks, every eight to 12 weeks eating and maintenance. And this doesn't fix anything, this doesn't reverse metabolic damage or anything like that. Okay. But it does, it does temporarily halt or reverse the metabolic adaptation that you had, it gives you more energy, right, it probably will feel great in the gym for a bit because now you have all these extra carbs coming in. And most importantly, and this is honestly the most important thing, it gives you the mental break from dieting, you're still going to keep your protein high, you're still going to train consistently, you can still do all the things. So consider a diet break if needed, especially when is a long period like this, because you may be planning for six to 12 months of dieting in this case. And this is one of the very few cases where I would say you could almost diet indefinitely, if it's conservative in the calories make sense, and just punctuate it with or interrupted with diet breaks, right. And I've had some very large clients who had a lot of weight to lose, we did it this way. But the amount of calories was, you know, it was still eating 2000 calories or more, maybe 2500 calories and it was like no big deal to do that for a while. So that's the conservative approach. I think I covered everything there that moves us next into the alcohol the standard approach. So this is the 12 to 16 week cut. This is the standard fat loss phase that I use with a lot of clients and what's awaits physique University. It's how I designed your nutrition plan. Again, for most people, depending on your specific situation because it is personalized to you. When you join I give you a plan and it tells you okay over the next six months this is what we're going to do to get to the result you're looking for. And if it's fat loss, it's usually going to have around a 12 to 16 week long cut. And so when you hear the word cut, doing a cut, this is like a standard cut. And if the conservative rate was point, two, five, I'm gonna say that the standard cut is around point five, two, all the way up to 1%. But most people have around point seven 5%. But we're gonna give it that full range, because I think there's some overlap between these phases. And again, if you burn more calories, you can go more aggressively and not feel it as much as somebody who burns less calories, or fewer calories, because you get to eat more plain and simple. And I know it's not fair, life's not fair. We're all different different rates of loss or different metabolisms. So, point five to 1% of your body weight per week, for 12 to 16 weeks. So if you weighed 200 pounds, that's about one to two pounds a week. And just to put that in perspective of the diet, I didn't do this with the last one. But I'll fix that here. One to two pounds, every one pound per week you're trying to lose is about a 500 calorie deficit a day. So in the last example, we talked about a half to one pound, so that's 250 to 500 calories a day. Now we're talking one to two pounds, again, for 200 pound person, that's 500 to 1000 calories per day deficit, right. And you might be like 1000 calorie deficit, I only burn 2500 That means I have to eat 1500 Yet, if you feel like that's sustainable. But if your metabolism is not that high, you may not be going at the full, you know, two pounds a week, even if you weigh 200, it might be a little bit less, you know, I weigh about 180. And when I go to a fat loss phase, it's usually around the full 1% One point A maybe even two pounds a week, because my metabolism is usually around 3000. So I can cut it down to 2000. And for me, that's fine, like eating 2000 calories a day, I can do that for 812 weeks, and then lose the weight I want to lose. Right now actually, I'm going to about half that rate. So I'm actually in this range, I'm going at about half a percent, because I went through some shoulder reactivation. And I was working on some bursitis and recovery. And so I decided to go back to maintenance for a while I did that for like three or four weeks, I felt great. I was able to recover mostly, let's just say I'm 95% there. And I said well, I want to go back into my fat loss phase. Because I do have a goal to get pretty lean this year, see what it's like, see how lean I can get. And for me that's getting back down to like at least 170 If not less on the scale. I don't want to drag it out forever. But I also don't want to go so aggressively, like I was doing because of my shoulder because I'm still kind of recovering. So I'm making it where it's sustainable for me from a training and recovery perspective, not just a food perspective. I mean, the food's nice, because now the amount I'm eating to be in a 500 calorie deficit a day almost doesn't feel like a diet. But I do feel it. I do feel it in my biofeedback, my training day today. In fact, I felt really fatigued in the gym, I don't usually feel that tired in the gym, and I did today. And I know it's because of my diet, it could have been a little bit of sleep as well. But I'm pretty confident based on my experience that it's the diet. So you've got to think about all these things. So going back to what this is the 12 to 16 week cut. I think this is a good middle ground for most people who have I'll say, a moderate amount of fat to lose not a lot of fat to lose a moderate amount. However, if you have a lot of weight to lose, you can go very aggressive. And I think this works well. If you have a high metabolism, I have a client whose metabolism is almost 4000 calories. And he can cut all the way down to like 2500 calories. And that results in a 1% if not slightly more than that rate of loss. And but he's built, he's got a lot of muscle. He loves heavy weights. I mean, he's got all the things working for him, he walks a lot sleeps a lot. He's on the younger side, right? All the things going for him, that may not be you. It's not even me, right. So I would say, a moderate amount of fat to lose and you're willing to be consistent with your diet and training. Again, it does require consistency, and a 12 to 16 week period. It ideally you don't even need any breaks. And by ideally, I mean you've set it up that way, not that you're gonna force yourself not to take a break. But you've set it up that way both with the right rate of loss, and also doing it at a time of year. That's kind of boring. That's not going to be interrupted with vacations and dining out and holidays. That's sustainable as well that because you're thinking ahead and you're planning if you need it, you're not just crashed it.

Philip Pape 29:31

Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to Build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique, or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique, I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 30:52

So I like the standard approach for most people, because it's not so slow, that you're gonna get bored or discouraged that you're not progressing. Because you will see drops in fat over time, like the trend weight is going to go down meaningfully. But it's also still not so fast that you're gonna risk losing muscle. In fact, we know that for the general population 1% of your body weight per week is the limit for losing muscle. Notice that I said general population. Again, I work with very trained people who are longtime lifters, they can go faster than that, I can go faster than that and not lose muscle, I can go about 1.2, I've tested it. And I have a couple clients can go 1.3 1.4%. Now they don't do this for a full 16 weeks, they might do that for six or eight weeks, and then they're done. And that'll be the mini cut we talked about in a bit. But they might do it for six or eight weeks and then taper down to the 1% it's going to depend on you. But just assume that it's generally a one to 1% of your body weight per week is the limit. Okay? Especially if you've never done this before. And so even if you're going at point 5.751, whatever, you're going to lose a decent amount of fat in a reasonable timeframe. Right and ballpark, it comes out to about 10 to 20 pounds for most people. So when you start, you're like I just got to lose that last 10 pounds to lose that last 20 pounds, this could be the perfect approach for you. Now, the downside of this is that it is I'll say, it requires in a sense more discipline, I hate to use that word sometimes. But it's discipline and adherence from in terms of the numbers, right. So if you're tracking your calories and macros, this is more aggressive than the first approach. So you can't be constantly going over your calories by 234 100 calories, because it'll just wipe out that difference. It'll wipe out the difference. Now, if you're tracking, if you're using macro factor, you know what the target is? And it's not going to shame you for going over, it's just on a weekly basis. Did you hit the let's say 7500 calorie deficit, if you're trying to get a full two pounds, they said right 7000 calories, you know, did you hit the deficit for the week, if you didn't, you're just gonna go more slowly, that's okay, that's fine. Just be aware of it and know that being close to those numbers that you set for yourself to go at that rate of loss is going to get you the result, as intended, right, you need to be on top of your macros your training to recovery, if you want to get those results. And if not, then one of two things, either there's some adjustments that have to be made to get back into that window, or it's not the right rate of loss for you. And it's too fast right now at this point in your life, and you can back it off of it. And I would rather you back off the rate and extend the duration. Now proactively, then constantly miss your macros and be over and feel frustrated that you can't quote unquote, hit that number. And now you feel like you're constantly failing and falling behind this, let's be honest, artificial plan we set for herself, because it's just a number. It's just a rate of loss. I really want to get this message that whatever you said at the beginning, make it reasonable. Make it doable, give yourself some fluff, some conservative padding in there, right? If you think you can get it done in eight weeks, assume 16, right? Like give yourself some pattern, and then make that work. And then if you want to go more aggressive as you go along, that might be a better approach psychologically, because then you're gonna feel like, oh, actually, I'm getting ahead of this thing. That's great, as opposed to falling behind. Right. So if, again, the downside is it does require a little more adherence, more consistency, right. And that can be challenging. If again, you're busy, you have a lot of stress, you have a very active social circle that revolves around food and drink, but you can always take breaks. And we talked about the one to two week diet break, we're going to talk about another way to take a diet break in a second. If you don't need the break, if you can just stay the course and get through it in 1216 weeks, you'll get there. It's a powerful tool for transforming your physique. That's what we're trying to do here. Alright, so the strategy that can make this more effective from a psychological perspective and a planning perspective is incorporating repeats. So in the conservative approach, we had diet breaks one to two weeks even longer. Now we're talking about refeeds. This is one to two days. And you could do that every week, you could do that every two weeks, as long as your weekly calories are where you want them. So you could say, Look, I'm gonna go pretty aggressive here, I'm gonna go toward the 1%. But I'm gonna carve out my Friday and Saturday, as refeed days where I eat at maintenance. And so in reality for the week, maybe I'm hitting point 8%, right, it's like slightly slower. But the benefit you get the trade off you get is this mental relief of getting to eat more food, these are not, I repeat, not cheat days, they're not cheat days, we don't do cheat days, cheat days implies that you're breaking some rule and you're cheating. And you're going off of some plant, no, these are planned in, these are controlled refeeds, where you're increasing your carbs, and eating a maintenance calories, you're not eating a bunch of junk food, or just whatever you want. However, you do have more room now to incorporate maybe some other foods you've been limiting, like pizza or something like that, which by the way, even in the regular day to day deficit, you should be incorporating some things that you enjoy on a regular basis and planning the min. So the refeed you know, there are some myths around refeeds. One of the myths is that it boosts your leptin levels, and which it might for a day or two might actually boosted but it's temporary. And then that reduces hunger and cravings and all of that, that piece of it, I would chalk up to just the fact you're eating more food, like you're going to eat more, so you're gonna be a little bit less hungry, right, like, let's just admit what it is. The more important thing is the mental break the mental break from the grind of dieting. Now, it may not seem like a grind to you, if you pick the rate of loss that was not too aggressive, but aggressive enough to give you progress, you can just stick with that just keep going. Right, just keep going. Or you can shift the calories around one week, and not do like a full refeed. But just kind of shift morale. So on your refeed days, just to be specific, what we mean is, if you are in a, let's say 700 calorie deficit, on your refeed day, you're in a zero calorie deficit, you're eating 700 more calories, mostly from carbs. And carbs doesn't mean pizza and doughnuts. Although you're welcome to include pizza and or donuts, to get to those carbs, it's a lot of fat to but that's fine, it is what it is. Carbs just means you know, any source of carbs, usually things like starches and grains and fruits and stuff like that, you're just scaling them up, getting that little boost of energy. Maybe if you time it right with your training session, you can get a little extra performance in your training session. And you can even time it with the social side of your calendar. And that's why I like refeeds is if you have a regular night out with the girls, right, or if you have a regular family dinner, that is a great time to have your refeed. Okay, so enough on the standard approach, I talk about it a lot. And a lot of the other episodes when we get into fat loss, it's typically that now we're getting into the mini cut. So this is the third of four rates of loss. This is the I'll call it aggressive approach. Not that not the extremely aggressive approach. But this is the I'll call it moderately to moderately aggressive to aggressive, any mini cut. Short and sweet, is I'll define it in a second. But who is it for? If you're already on the lean side, that has a wide range that could be like for a man that could be anywhere from 10 to even 20%, it's kind of lean for you or you're like, you don't need to lose a lot much weight, probably less than 20 pounds, probably quite a bit less than 20 pounds. In some cases, maybe it's 15, maybe it's 10. If it's just five, or you want to get shredded, right, or you're breaking up a long building phase with a cut in between. These are all situations where mini cut might work. Now, Jeff Hoehn, I talked about in the q&a episode coming out, or that already came out that we kind of have slightly different definitions of mini cut. And that's why it's important to define terms. His use of the term was breaking up a building phase, my use of the term is just a short cut, typically after a building phase before you start your next one. Technically, those could be the same thing though, right? If you think about it, if Jeff saying look, you build for five months, and then you break up your building phase with this, say eight week mini cut, and then you keep building for another four months, is that a nine month building phase with a two month mini cut? Or is it a five month building phase and a four month building phase with a cut in between it's semantics in my opinion. So what I don't like to do though, is have you constantly stopped building to cut that is not a good approach. We don't do that. We want to build muscle for at least five or six months. So once you've built for at least five or six months, you can call it a interruption in your building phase or you can just call it a cut after your building phase. We're going to talk about in the final phase here the Super Rapid Fat Loss about actually interrupting a building phase so hold on that but in the mini cut that we're talking about right now, this involves losing weight at a rate of I'm gonna say usually around 1% or maybe even a tiny bit more. If you're a more advanced trainee all the things I said before right you have a higher metabolism. You you train really hard, you're not going to risk losing muscle like some people fear monger about, you're just not I just seen it time and time again, I've heard, you know, experts who I really trust, whether it's like Brian Borstein or Steve Hall or somebody talk about how you know, if you're doing everything right, the 1% limit, it's a population level number, and you may actually be an outlier where you can go 1.2 1.3% of your body weight per week and do it at a decent amount of calories. For the average person, a mini cut is probably just at the 1% and done for a short period. That's really what we're talking about it because you don't have a lot of weight to lose, you don't need a long duration. And you can go out 1% for like six to 10 weeks. So if you weighed 200 pounds, that's let's say two pounds a week, 10 weeks, that's 20 pounds, right? But even six weeks, that's still 12 pounds. And again, I see this a lot with people who are already lifting who come to me for one on one coaching or even in weeks and weeks physique University, and they're like, I just want to lean out, like I've been trying carnivore, I've been trying all the diets, they don't quite work, I just want to lean out what do we do, and we work with them for, you know, maybe eight to 10 weeks, and we get exactly where they need to be. They're like, Alright, I'm done. Now, I'm lean enough, I don't want to keep losing, because I'm going to lose some of the strength on my lifts and such, because that's important to them. I'm going to turn it out now and go back to maintenance. All right. So mini cut about 1%, maybe a little more of your body weight per week, for about six to 10 weeks. It is designed to be short and sweet. That's the goal. All right, we're getting as lean as possible, in as short a time as possible, try and have our cake and eat it too. Because you don't have a lot of weight to lose, you're not new at this, you've done it before, you can jump right in, you track it with a macro factor, we have certainty and confidence of what it takes to keep you in that deficit. You know, to eat your vegetables, you know, to stay hydrated, you know, to eat a lot of fiber, right, you eat a lot of protein, a lot of lean meats, lower fat, dairy, all the things, you get your sleep, prioritize your recovery. And it's this targeted strike to just strip off that last bit of stubborn body fat. And for many of us, myself included, we like to be in the state where 10 months out of the year we're building and at most two months, we're dieting and those two months are like your mini cut, and you fit it in the best time of year when it kind of doesn't interrupt anything else in your life. Usually, that's something like the spring, you don't have any holidays going on, you're coming out of winter, maybe you're still bundled up, and you're getting ready to be lean for the summer. Very common approach. All right now, because of the rate of loss being on the upper end, again, it's suited for people who don't aren't looking for lots and lots of LDS lots of pounds on the scale to lose. So again, 10 to 15, maybe 20% body fat for men, for women 20 to 25, maybe 30% for women, I get your definition of Lean may be higher than someone else's. And that's okay. That's okay. Not all of us want to walk around being like super shredded, or have six packs. The other thing is, again, you should already have experience with dieting and training or be working with a coach or of course, I'm going to plug it all day. It's in weights physique university, because then we're gonna give you a very targeted plan and adjustments to do that. Now, the downside of this mini cut is number one, it's very intense, okay, it's intense if you've never done it before, and your calories aren't super high. You know, like I mentioned before the gentleman with the 4000 Calorie metabolism. Most people like most men are sitting around 20 803,000, most women are down around the 24 to 2600, something like that, you've got to think of the numbers, if you're gonna go at the full 1%, it could put you down around 2000 or less calories are far below 2000 calories in some cases. And that can tax you physically. And mentally. You have a little more strictness with the approach, right? Not restriction of foods per se. But just the constraints are there and you've got to make tighter trade offs. And really prioritize the high fiber and high satiety foods, right, we can't be, you know, the indulgences are going to be somewhat limited. Just the reality, it's a temporary state. That's why we want to do it aggressively. Because it's temporary, it's very short lived, you might get more hunger, more fatigue, more mood swings on this kind of cut, you're getting closer to that point where you could lose muscle mass, you've got to really watch out with your training, get enough protein, get enough stimulus protein is important here, because the calories are going to drop and the protein as a percentage of calories are going to be pretty high. And I've seen some people slack off a bit, they get to this point. And because they're just scaling down their food, the protein gets scared along with it. And now you're not in that great territory for high amount of protein. Now you have to be at the full one gram per pound, maybe not. Maybe not we the more we learn about protein research, the more we see you can get by on less and still hold on to your your gains, especially if you have proper intensity execution and progressive overload in your training. So if you can handle all that, if that's like, Yeah, that's cool, I can do it. The mini cut approach is a great way to get lean and mean in a hurry. So that's why I do recommend it for somebody who's already been through this at least once before. Now, I talked about refeeds can you incorporate mini cuts in a refeed and I'm in Ain't got Yeah, absolutely. Again, it's going to slow it down. But you can almost make the argument that if any type of phase needs refeeds, it will be a mini cut, the more aggressive you get, the farther you are from your maintenance, the more drained you're going to be to where a refeed, it seems like this beautiful gift you've been given, you know, and you almost look forward to it. Now, again, not like a cheat day, we don't want to be psychologically obsessed with it, we just want to have it planned in where it makes sense for our schedule. And for our mental state. So all of these things, doing it this way, let's is intended to prioritize your adherence to the diet so that you get through it and over with as quickly as you can. Okay, so let's see, that's it for the mini cut, I think. And now I'm going to move to the Rapid Fat Loss approach, which you might call the last resort, because I don't deliberately prescribe this to anyone, even my one on one clients, it's really up to them to tell me I want to do this, and almost sell me on it, because I know all the reasons why you could do it and might do it. And it could be helpful. But there are many, many, many reasons not to do this. And I want to be very clear on that. I have a rapid fat loss guide, you can go to Whitson weights.com/free. and download it, it's got the entire detailed protocol on how to do this. It's a very special approach. So you want to do it the right way. It is extreme. It is also in some circles controversial. But on Whitson weights, it's not controversial, because we do it the right way. And you've got to do it the right way. And this involves losing weight at a rate of around 1.2 to 1.5% of your body weight per week, for a very short period. Okay, usually two to four weeks max. So this isn't a mini cut, I sometimes call this a micro cut. Alright, so let's say you weigh 200 pounds, you're gonna go, you know, 2.53 pounds a week, for like four weeks. So if you just do the math that might be at most, at most 10 pounds. For most people, it's like, five to seven. All right, I did this myself, as part of the challenge. It was the shred Tober challenge back in 2003. I did a podcast on it. I don't remember the name off top of my head. But Dr. Bill Campbell came on. And we talked about it, it was inspired by his work Dr. Bill Campbell is is really into the Rapid Fat Loss research, he's doing a new study about it. And it's totally doable. And the whole point of a rapid fat loss phase is I want to lose that fat as fast as I can, and still not lose muscle and get it over with. So I want to be very clear, this is not for people who have a lot of weight to lose, this is not for 1520 pounds, because I've seen people reach out to me and say I followed your fat loss protocol. But I still want to lose more can I keep going. And I'm like absolutely not, don't keep going, what I recommend is either taper it down to a more conservative rate and try to keep going like hope for the best that you don't lose muscle at that point. Or go back to maintenance for a while, like for a month or six weeks or even eight weeks and then go into a normal fat loss phase like don't do another rapid fat loss phase right away, I feel like you're going to really eat into your performance and your sustainability in your muscle. If you try to do this as a default option. Alright, so it's not for everyone, I would say it's either something you want to do as an experiment, or you're pretty lean, you just want to get to the last bit of shredded really quick. Or it's a last resort. Let's say you've tried some of the other approaches. And because of, I don't know, let's say your hormones, your body's response rate, your metabolic adaptation, and maybe you don't have a lot of calories to work with. I've had some clients that are kind of like in that box, right? They feel like they're in a box because all the variables are like conspiring against them, and will do a rapid fat loss phase, almost like as a breakthrough. Okay, it's like, I don't want to use the word shock, because that sounds, that sounds silly, but it's effectively, very quickly getting ahead of that metabolic adaptation, even though it's going to catch up quickly, trust me, it's gonna catch up, you can't do anything about metabolic adaptation. But you're gonna get ahead of it quickly. And then because of the duration is short, you can meaningfully push that weight on the scale that fat loss as long as you're training hard during that process, and using the refeeds. So very important, this rapid fat loss phase incorporates refeeds by default, so unlike the other types of fat loss, where you can choose to include them if you need them. The rapid fat loss phase includes them as a matter of course. So like my two week protocol, it has four days of dieting, one day, a refeed, four days of dieting one day refeed and then four days dieting, right to recover and prevent that muscle loss. We also don't want to use this if again, you're not experienced dieting, and this is the first thing you've ever done. Don't do that. Don't do that. This is just going to feed into the whole rapid. What do you call, like quick fix, you know, Crash dieting kind of mentality. It's not the intent. Okay. And it's not meant to sustain for more than a few weeks. I just want to keep reiterating that. Okay, I did allude to where you You might use it like, what are the situations where Rapid Fat Loss is appropriate. So, one could be if you're trying to make weight, okay, if you're a competitive and I don't know bodybuilding physique athletes fighting, even powerlifting, I don't know, you're gonna have to try it out. And I had a powerlifter reach out about this, who was going to do this. So I need to see how that went. Because what you don't want to do is feel like completely drained of energy where you just can't hit your performance goals for the show. But we know people do more extreme things than that, you know, boxers with the water weight, and such, and, or for military tests, right? Sometimes people do this, we don't want to get into any sort of binge restrict cycle though here. And we don't want to rely on this and like, wait and depend on it. But potentially, that's a situation where it can be used and still come out of it the other side, not the worst for where another situation that comes up. And again, I hesitate to mention these when I'm going to because you're probably thinking about it, if you have a once in a lifetime event, maybe it's a wedding, maybe it's your wedding coming up, and the time is against you right now. And you want to try this and again, do it the right way, have the refeeds in there, keep training hard to just quickly cut off that five or six pounds, and you think that's worth it to you, that's your choice, do it right, that's up to you. That's a possibility. Again, it shouldn't be a regular thing, like every year, you have some event that requires this is a once in a lifetime event. The other place I actually like it potentially is breaking up a building face. So what you could do is you could say I'm going to build for a year, and I'm going to do a micro cut after month eight, right. So eight months in, you know, you might have gained, let's say 15 pounds, or 20 pounds. And now you're gonna do a micro cut for two weeks and cut five pounds, it's kind of like giving you a little reset right in the middle of your building phase, and you've got four more months of your building phase. And then the net gain of the phase isn't as large, even though the game is mostly muscle, right. So the rapid fat loss phase, cut some of the fat off in the middle of building phase so that you end up leaner by the end of it having built the same amount of muscle, which is great, right if you can do that. So that's a way to do it, where I think again, when Jeff Hoehn and I were talking about and he was saying a mini cut in the middle of the building phase kind of what he was thinking. But I'm talking about even more aggressive like a micro cut, which some people call mini cuts. So just semantics. Alright, so if you do decide to do the Rapid Fat Loss route, there's a few things you can do to minimize some of the risks and some of the side effects. The first and biggest one is getting enough protein I'm talking if you can around 1.2, maybe 1.5 grams per pound. So like blow past the one gram per pound, just to be 100% sure that that is not the bottleneck when it comes to your muscle. Second, all right, you've got to keep your training intensity up their intensity, I mean, your load, your volume, or your proximity to failure and of course, training for progressive overload and training for building muscle, even if you can't technically do it. Because you're deprived of all this energy, you act as if you're doing it. And this is where cardio and high rep type work. I

Philip Pape 53:03

don't like high rep work I don't I don't think necessarily need for that. And fat loss. Cardio is an interesting one, that could be a dial that you would use during this phase in either direction, either don't do too much, because it's just gonna totally burn you out. And you're gonna feel even more drained, or incorporate some of it low and medium, even a little high intensity cardio to kind of accelerate it even further, and potentially increase your expenditure where you're now burning even more calories. Or you could do it on a little bit less. However, big caveat there is as you're doing this rapid fat loss phase, it's so short, you don't really have time to see your expenditure change and respond to that. And so when I set up these protocols, I do it as a fixed protocol for the whole two or three weeks, I don't worry about what my expenditures doing. Because it's not long enough to be able to react properly to that. And then the refeeds every four days, five days, I like him four days dieting one day refeed that's what I like. So make sure the refeeds fit on the days you want where you want them. Okay, and then of course, get ready to come out of it. Like if you listen to my episode, reverse dieting is a complete waste of time, even after a big ggressive microcut where you've you know, you've lost five, seven pounds, and your expenditure might have tanked. Probably going to tank somewhat. Go right back to your expenditure right away or a little bit higher so that you recover very quickly. Okay, so I know this is a solo episode, it's actually going a little bit long, but I think it was worth it because we covered all of these fat loss approaches in much more detail than I sometimes have a chance to. And the question is, how do you choose the right one? Well, we've already talked about all the factors. So I hope that you heard your scenario in one of those, including your starting body composition, your body fat, how much weight you have to lose. What is your experience level, both with dieting, but also with building muscle and training? Right? And by dieting, I mean not that you've done diets, but proper nutrition macros, micros hydration supplements Shouldn't it's all in place. And ideally, you've gone through that standard fat loss phase before you try something more aggressive. Then of course, your lifestyle and your goals like what are your goals? What's your timeframe? What is your schedule look like? How do you feel when you eat this way, and so on. So if you're, again, new to dieting, you have a lot of weight to lose, I recommend the more conservative approach. And then gradually, as you get more experienced, you can go with more aggressive approaches. And that's kind of a cool way to mix it up. Right, it gives you time to build a sustainable habits, you don't get into the pitfalls of trying to go too quickly. And then as you get leaner and your body composition improves, you know, you get this fun chance to mix it up and try a little more aggressive. And you can always dial it back can always dial back, there's no right or wrong. Okay. And regardless of what you choose principles, remember the principles, prioritize your training to preserve muscle mass, eat enough protein to preserve muscle mass, and for your body composition and for satiety, take breaks or refeeds as needed, so that you don't get burned out. So you get psychological relief, and you continue to maintain your progress. Even though you're slowing it down a tiny bit, you get to continue and create that add that long term adherence. The last thing is, I want you to be honest with yourself about what is sustainable for you long term, right? Don't be afraid to adjust your plan if it isn't working. Okay. And there you have it, right. So the spectrum of weight loss or fat loss rates, how to choose the right approach. It's not a one size fits all what works for the person next to you that you're watching, and is telling you this is the perfect approach that worked for them, it may be the completely wrong approach for you. And so you've got to find that balance between making the progress but still enjoying your life still maintaining your health. And if you take one thing away from this episode, let it be this sustainability is king or queen when it comes to fat loss, short term and long term. So I don't want you to get caught up in the hype. I know you heard Rapid Fat Loss and you're like, Oh, I could actually do that. And I can do it the right way. When the rubber hits the road and you actually do it, it's tough, right? So start slow and build to where is the sweet spot for you. And along the way, you're building habits. These are long term habits. Okay, experiment, collect data, use macro factor, join the winter weights, Facebook community. And if you really need help to accelerate it and customize it for you, I want you to join Whitson weights physique University, we are open for enrollment link, as always in the show notes. All right, I hope you have a better understanding of your options for how fast you might lose weight. And again, if you want to apply these with a custom plan for you with a six month outlook with a proper rate of loss, and then you get weekly check ins and live coaching calls, monthly workout programs to take your physique to the next level. I definitely invite you to check out Whitson weights physique university, because here's what I did, I took the best of one on one coaching. And I rolled it into a community based semi private group coaching program that gives you expert guidance, accountability support, so that you get through any plateaus. In fact, you never hit them. That's the goal. You can build muscle, you can lose fat, like the way that we talk about here on WinSun weights, with no restricted diets with no excessive cardio without sacrificing who you are and your time and your lifestyle. And the university has been growing fast since we launched in April, and we're looking for some more brave souls to jump in accelerate their path to a dream physique. And that's why I recently updated the pricing structure to make it even more affordable. So if you want to learn more about that, and enroll, just head to Whitson weights.com/physique, or click the link in my show notes. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique, to learn about WWE you and join today so we can get you some clarity, and a custom nutrition plan so that you can start implementing right away what we talked about today, to build the Lean muscular physique you deserve. Again, the link is in my show notes. We're going to get some weights.com/physique. Okay, in our next episode 171, big butts, strong butts, we love them all, how to train your glutes with Sue Bush, we are talking about a fun topic, especially for the ladies out there. And that is how to build strong, functional and aesthetically pleasing glutes. Why do we love butts so much? What are the benefits of glute development beyond just looking good, and one of the most effective training strategies, exercise selection and programming considerations for optimal results with those glutes. Now, Sue and I were contributors to the March issue of body by science speaking of Dr. Bill Campbell. So she had me on her show recently, the physique development podcast, and if you missed that, go look her up and give it a follow. That's again the physique development podcast. And of course, make sure to hit follow right now in your podcast app for this podcast, which waits to get notified when Sue's episode comes out, and also support the show by increasing our number of subscribers. As always, stay strong and I'll talk to you next time here on the wits and weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their weights or weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 5/3/24 Philip Pape 5/3/24

Ep 169: Q&A w/Jeff Hoehn – Menopause Weight Loss, Bulking Without Getting Fat, & Cutting on Low Sleep

How long should you rest between sets? What to do if you're gaining too much on a bulk? Can women over 50 overcome menopause weight-loss resistance and is it a thing? How to train when transitioning from bulking to cutting?

In today's episode, fitness expert and coach Jeff Hoehn joins Philip (@witsandweights) as a co-host. They dive deep into various fitness topics in this Q&A session, including the challenges of weight loss during menopause, strategies for bulking without excessive weight gain, the optimal rest intervals for muscle growth and strength, and the impact of sleep on cutting cycles.

Jeff Hoehn hosts the podcast The Mind Muscle Connection. His podcast stands out for its science-based approach to fitness and nutrition, and the mental aspects of achieving overall wellness. Jeff's podcast covers a range of topics, including the often-neglected topic of body recomposition. For those who don’t want to bulk or cut exclusively, his workshops offer a holistic approach to achieving the best of both worlds.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

6:24 How long should you rest between sets for muscle growth and strength?
16:17 Are there too many cons of cutting during periods of low sleep? Should I just stay at maintenance calories?
23:50 I'm gaining a little too much weight in a building phase. What do I do?
41:10 How do I adjust my programming during the transition from a bulk to a cut? Which training variables are most important?
48:58 Is menopause and weight loss resistance a thing? Related to this, what's your advice on programming and nutrition for women over 50?
58:28 How do you "prep" before a season of "going nuts" with food (Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.)?
1:06:30 Outro

Episode resources:

The Mind Muscle Connection podcast
Jeff’s IG: @jeffhoehn_

Episode summary:

Unlocking the secrets to effective muscle growth and optimal nutrition requires a deep dive into the science behind our bodies. In this co-hosted Q&A, we tackle the multifaceted world of fitness and nutrition, offering listeners practical strategies for different phases of their fitness journey. Whether you're in the bulking stage or cutting phase, understanding rest intervals, muscle growth, and the concept of a caloric surplus is essential. This episode provides listeners with a roadmap to fine-tune their approach for maximum impact on their physique.

In our discussion, we delve into the topic of rest periods during strength training. There's a delicate balance to be struck between allowing muscles enough time to recover and maximizing gym time efficiency. For those focused on hypertrophy, longer rest intervals can lead to increased muscle growth, provided the training volume is matched. However, it's equally important to recognize that shorter rest periods can be offset by increasing the number of sets to maintain training density. We also consider the impact of sleep deprivation on cutting phases, acknowledging the intricate relationship between sleep, recovery, and dieting.

As we shift gears towards the building phase of fitness, we highlight common tracking inaccuracies that can impede progress. It's crucial to run an energy audit to ensure adherence to nutrition plans, taking into account all aspects of diet and movement. Misjudging one's caloric surplus can lead to unintended consequences, making it imperative to have a nuanced approach to body recomposition. For those aiming to gain weight with a balanced fat-to-muscle ratio, understanding the dynamics of daily movement and metabolic rate is paramount.

We also explore the psychological nuances of weight gain, especially for women, who often face societal pressures regarding body image. The podcast offers strategies for muscle gain without excessive fat accumulation, emphasizing the importance of monitoring the rate of weight gain and the value of personal support in boosting self-confidence and motivation. As we approach the transition from bulking to cutting, the significance of maintaining training intensity becomes clear. We discuss the need for a structured training regimen and the benefits of auto-regulation to ensure muscle mass preservation during a calorie deficit.

Navigating the hormonal changes that come with menopause presents unique challenges for women over 50. This episode offers compassionate counsel, addressing the impact of decreased estrogen on sleep, stress levels, and fat distribution. We encourage strength training and gradual progress to build muscle mass, improve bone density, and maintain overall health during this transition. Moreover, we provide actionable advice for managing holiday feasting without compromising fitness goals. The podcast wraps up with strategies to enjoy festive seasons while maintaining a balanced approach to nutrition and weight management.

In conclusion, this episode is a treasure trove of information for anyone looking to master their muscle growth and nutrition. We’ve constructed a comprehensive guide to help you navigate the complexities of body transformation. Tune in and transform your training, nutrition, and well-being with us.

Have you followed the podcast?

Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Today I'm teaming up with Jeff Hoehn of the mind muscle connection podcast for a special co hosted q&a, where we'll share our thoughts on rest periods for muscle growth, managing your diet, unlimited sleep, what to do if you're gaining too much weight in a book, how to transition your training from a bulk to a cut, menopause and weight loss resistance for women over 50 and how to prep ahead of time for inevitable holiday feasting all in today's cohosted q&a with Jeff Hey. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry. So you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Hey, everyone, and welcome to a special episode that dropped in two of your favorite podcast feeds, Whitson weights and the mind muscle connection. I'm one of your co hosts today Philip Pape of the wits and weights podcast. And I'm thrilled to share the virtual mic with a man himself Jeff Hoehn of the mind muscle connection podcast, Jeff, thanks, man for collaborating on this q&a. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 01:18

no, thanks for setting this up. You definitely took the lead on this, you were keeping me very accountable to making sure that this ran smoothly. So I appreciate your ability to you know, kind of keep things running smoothly. Like that was certainly helpful. And you do a great job with all this stuff. So really looking forward to doing this as well, too. Yeah, man,

Philip Pape 01:33

well, you always step up to the plate, I know how professional you are in the podcasting game. And it was super easy and efficient. I'll say to get ready for today. And we didn't have to do a ton of prep, but it's gonna be solid. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 01:44

your professionalism with the podcasting and how you have things set up, like, you know, it definitely was eye opening to me, especially the first time you know, when I came on before and and then getting this set up, like you definitely are really good at like getting this stuff together and, you know, different shows with how the podcast has grown and everything like that. So I'm just wanting to kind of give you a shout out for that, like super organized, man, I wish I had six of your organization skills. And I would be doing a lot better if if that were the case. So

Philip Pape 02:09

don't sell yourself short. Just you're one of the guys that listened to early on and inspired me. So like, you know, you get the information out there. And to this day, I have even my feet. So that's one of the reasons I reached out to you to do this.

Jeff Hoehn 02:19

I'm still on there. That's good.

Philip Pape 02:23

Like, there's Jeff again, man. No, no, for sure. So I mean, for those listening to my audience are in Whitson weights. Before we dive into the QA, I do want to quickly introduce Jeff, he was on an episode a long time ago, on I think we talked about maintenance. And he is the host of the mind muscle connection, Jeff Hoehn, one of the again, one of the shows in my feed, because you know, it gets to the nuts and bolts, the mental side as well fitness and nutrition, and it's all science based. But he also interviewed some really cool guests like Steve Hall, which he introduced me to, and then I had him on the show. Again, I'm grateful for that. The main thing is, you know, your shows are super practical. They focus on things like body recomp, which don't often get enough attention, but are important phases that a lot of people want to live in. I get questions all the time, like what if I don't want to bulk whatever I don't want to cut, I just want to kind of get the best of everything. And he's got a really good workshop on that as well. So I want everybody listening to my show to go subscribe or follow his podcast, which again is called the mind muscle connection. Over to you man. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 03:20

no, absolutely. That's a great intro. I appreciate that. So for my audience, as we're co hosting this, so Philip, as he posts the Whitson weights podcast he has a wide range of of coaches on I feel like every week you have new coaches on that you know I'm not familiar with so you do a great job I feel like bringing those those type of people on but also you've had you know, people that my audience is probably familiar with right you've had Brandon on I think a couple times you had Brian Borstein on you had Jordan lips on you had Steve Hall on um so some definitely some carryover there as well too. And I know for you you have multiple episodes a week when you go over nutrition lifting muscle metabolism and fat loss and I think you also give your unique perspective on things as well I know you had your shoulder injury surgery that you had recently so kind of getting that insight into it is super helpful. And so you know, you also do a great job of making it practical for everybody as well too. And I think that that's key right because you know some of the science based stuff it can go over people's head and we we feel like we're smart when we say it but it's like you know does people do people actually understand that as well. So I think you do a great job of that and like I said you're very professional you're super nice dude awesome do down to earth so I think that's another thing that can't go unnoticed and again, everything's professional from your podcast logo, do background everything the sound like it all sounds great. So make sure you give him a follow as well to follow and subscribe and enjoy this episode and obviously all future episodes on as well too. So again, looking forward to doing this with you.

Philip Pape 04:46

Awesome, man. I appreciate it. All of that and yeah, I forgot Brian Borstein is another guy. See if I just I listen to your show. I look you bring on him. Like let me just go reach out to that guy. I'm on my show too, because they're awesome individuals.

Jeff Hoehn 04:56

Well, I'll do that sometimes to where like if I'm like, Okay, you should bring it It'll always go and kind of check out other people's like podcast as well, too.

Philip Pape 05:03

You also mentioned something about science based and also making it practical. And it's funny, one of the episodes I actually got a bad review on on the podcast about was, I was talking about how fat is oxidized and released from the body and all this and it's like, this guy sounds like a Wikipedia article, and he doesn't know what he's talking about, like, Oh, my God, you know, stuff like that hit you you go. But then you realize there's always some truth in, you know, people are looking for an understanding. So even if there's a little bit of truth there, I want to keep improving based on that.

Jeff Hoehn 05:31

Yeah. And that's a cool thing, you know, with you, too, right? We like you said, you want to learn you want to get better. And, you know, instead of letting that holds you down, you, you know, you take it and you get better. And I think that that's, that's part of this whole process. And this is what I wanted to mention, actually. So it did come back to me, I knew it would, you also introduced me to, you know, listening to some podcasts on improving podcasting, and I am all about self development. And I like never thought about doing that. And so that's been super helpful. The podcast growth university that I listened to, and has been super helpful. So I appreciate you sharing that with me when we connect it. You know, I think it was like a couple months ago already. So cool,

Philip Pape 06:05

man. Yeah, no, all these are skills, right? They're just skills, you got to put time into them. If you can, right. We have busy lives. So it's like, which one do you do the training, the nutrition, the podcasting, and so on? All of them? Yeah. All right. Let's just do them all. It's it's more about harmony than balances. Somebody put it to me. Yep. Cool, man. So for today's q&a, what we did is we each chose three questions from each of our communities. So we're going to smush them together. But we'll do Jeff three first, and then my three, but we're gonna take turns asking them, and then you guys, the listener, and the viewers can hear both perspectives. So you get a really well rounded, solid idea of the things to consider in your own fitness and nutrition journey. So I'm just going to ask you the first one, which is from your community, Jeff, and it's a classic one about training. And that is, how long should you rest between sets for muscle growth and strength?

Jeff Hoehn 06:53

Yeah, so rest between sets for muscle growth. This is one that I get commonly, and I think one people overthink it, but then people also want like, this exact time, and I think they think there's this like, like magic amount. Now, as we get into this, there probably is a, you know, we're talking I think we need to understand that we're going to take this from a muscle growth and strength perspective, I do think from a strength perspective, there probably isn't a magic time. But there, you probably want to make sure that you know what strength it's, you're resting enough on in between, right? So we can we can kind of touch base on some of these numbers. But that's kind of the kind of background on that, right, like people will ask all the time, you know, when I remember back when I first started training, like, what do my rest engineers need to be? Do I need to sit there and kind of like, watch, you know, all my watch, like every last second and then and then go? Or can you auto regulate it a little bit more. And from my perspective, this is something that I have kind of changed in terms of like, I think you need want to be you want to auto regulate it a little bit more. And what I mean by that is, you can kind of have a time frame, but you want to kind of go off of your feeling and your feelings and how you're feeling in that moment. Versus like, Okay, two minutes, I got eight seconds, boom, okay, now I can go again, right? So I don't think you need to do that. So I think you can't auto regulate it. And so what I'll do is I'll go over, what are some things you can look at? And what are some kind of general times and then maybe when you know, when would this change? Right, so let's start from a muscle building standpoint. So in the research, you know, I think there was a recent study that kind of shows like, hey, two to three minutes, you should rest in between sets. And you know, that's going to lead to more muscle growth than if you rested for like, you know, 30 seconds or a minute, right. But when you kind of dive in a little bit deeper, when you actually match the volume, yes, if you're doing three sets, and then three sets, and you rest for like one minute, and then you rest for three minutes, because you're resting longer. And the three minute one, and again, I'm just kind of making up numbers here, you will see more hypertrophy, right? Because you're you're more rested, you can maintain that volume load, you can, you know, you can maintain your intensity. But if you add in a few more sets, in the shorter rest time, that can kind of offset some of that, right. So, you know, so kind of increasing like your training destiny. So like, if you do go shorter rest, you could potentially just restless and that will kind of offset some of that. Right? So that's kind of, you know, the background there on the, on the hypertrophy side of things. So I think like, what would be some practical numbers there, I think, again, two to three minutes, I think is solid. And then like, again, for more isolated stuff, maybe one to two minutes on there on that. But this is also also going to be dependent on how you feel, and probably the exercises that you're doing, right. So if you're doing more compound lifts, like stuff, heavier stuff, you know, probably closer to three minutes and beyond there potentially with that, because, you know, those are going to take more out of it for you, you know, more isolation exercises, bicep curls, smaller muscle groups, you know, maybe you can do closer to one minute, right. So those are kind of some practical numbers that you can take, but to be kind of to take it from auto regulatory standpoint. You could also kind of go off of, you know, your breathing in between sets. So if you're like, you know, sitting there like, hey, I need to do a minute and a half, but it's like a minute and a half and you're like breathing super heavy and you're not ready to go. It's like okay, maybe you need to rest a little bit longer there on that right. What does the target muscle feel like Right? Is it still burning? Do you still feel it? Okay. Maybe you need to rest a little bit longer. But if it's feeling good, hey, it's probably time to go there with that, right? So those would be my two big ones there. And then also like, again, if you're doing more compound lifts, you know, how's like your core feeling? Like, you know, is that ready to go? Or is that still tired? Because if that's still kind of tired and fatigued, you know, you might want to rest a little bit longer. And then just your general sense of like, are you ready to hit the next set as well, too, right. And again, I think if, if you can think about this practically, like, when you're doing like lateral raises, or bicep curls, like, Okay, do you need four minutes rest on that probably, you're probably all checking all those boxes off way earlier, there was that. So again, I think I gave you some practical numbers to hit. But then also, you know, you can utilize some of those other proxies as well, too. And then I think also, there are going to be times when you're training for hypertrophy, that you may do some like, incomplete rest periods, right, you may do mile rep sets, you may do drop sets, right. So again, those could be some things that you could potentially incorporate in. But just, you know, again, that would be the goal, there is incomplete rest on that, right, you're not trying to rest on in between. So I think from a hypertrophy perspective, I think resting longer is never a bad idea. Because you're going to preserve, like, you're going to be more recovered, you're going to be ready to go. And I think resting longer is not going to hurt you. Whereas I do think under resting could potentially hurt you. Unless that is the goal on there. If that the only downside with resting longer would be, that's more time that you're going to be at the gym, right? So if you want to kind of increase that efficiency a little bit, you can improve that. So I think that kind of summed up the hypertrophy side of things pretty well. I can go into strength, or I don't know, if you want to kind of hit on the hypertrophy side first, before I go into strength or Yeah,

Philip Pape 11:27

yeah, I can. And we were joking beforehand that like, we're gonna agree 90% on this stuff. And you're like, exactly, mirroring the notes I had, I had, like, you know, some of the studies originally suggested one to two minutes, and I'm like, but I like two to three, and you're like, Yeah, two to three. So the only things I would add to that is, if you're not used to these slightly longer rest periods, especially for strength, as we're gonna get into it, it can help to have a timer initially, almost like tracking your food, it's just get, you know, giving you a baseline of what that feels like. Because for some people, two minutes might seem like a long time, if they're used to just banging out reps constantly in the gym. The other thing is, I do love the autoregulation and feeling it, give yourself more time if needed, for sure. And then don't get distracted to like some people in the gym, you know, they get on their phone, they start doing email and stuff. This is not really answering the original question necessarily. But if people give themselves a license to rest for five minutes, it can become eight or 10. If you start walking around looking at your email, and then you mentioned the intensity techniques already, which, you know, just this morning, I was doing, you know, bicep curls and like, drop sets. And you're right. In that case, the goal is to shorten the time. And the main reason for that is usually time efficiency. Eric Helms and Mike Soto's came out with an article just in mass yesterday, I think about drop intensity techniques, and they covered three different ones, and then compared like not using them versus using them and how you can save like a half hour in the gym every time you go. So that could be a really good reason for it.

Jeff Hoehn 12:48

Well, on you're kind of resting too long in between, I think from like a physiological standpoint, you're not going to do any harm by resting that long. But from like a mental perspective, like you said, What's your engagement now of what you're doing right now, it's like your, your mind is elsewhere. So I think that would be the thing to, you know, look out with with that. Like, it's not like a, you know, again, if you were to like study things physiologically, like you're not going to see a difference, you might see a little bit better, because you're resting longer, but it's like mentally, like you're just not going to be as engaged I feel like anymore, because this reminds me of when back when, during COVID, I was training at home, and there's just so many things that you can freakin do at home that you can't do at the gym. So it's like, I just found that, like, I just met from a mental standpoint, I wasn't staying as engaged in the workouts for that reason, again, the longer rest may have been helpful, but you know, because I wasn't as like mentally engaged that that was that was the issue there. But But you make a good point on like, getting started, like if you're used to, like, you know, maybe more of like a circuit style of training, like kind of like, like those kind of like group classes, fat loss style workouts, that may be a little bit of an adjustment for you, like you said there with that. But I think also, as you get more advanced and you do it, like you start to learn how to, you know, kind of push yourself a little bit more from a hypertrophy perspective, I think you, you get better at that. And you almost kind of want a little bit of a longer rest time where it's like, initially, I could see where you know, maybe you do have to like, go slightly lower with everything because you're just not the intensity is not there yet and everything like that. But that goes back to what we talked about with like the proxies on this wall, too. So

Philip Pape 14:16

yeah, one last thing is you alluded to the strength regime of just being longer rest periods. Right. And I know I found early on when I started I did starting strength years ago, and it was like, Yeah, you can rest 578 Even 10 minutes. Oh my god. It's crazy until I got into super heavy sets of five deadlifts and like now I understand I get it. Yep, I need all the rest and went by rest. I meant like sitting on my ass for just that time and letting my heart rate and everything was to get restored. It's crazy. Well, on

Jeff Hoehn 14:43

strength real quick, that's where you do probably want to make sure you do rest a little bit longer in between because with strength, you know, we're kind of want to make sure you're fresh and you're able to lift the lows that you need to so that that would be a time and I feel like you do a little bit more kind of strength as type two raining overall, at least from what I see on Instagram. So you know, that would be something that like, you would want to make sure that you do rest enough if you're going for strength, right, because you really do want to make sure that you're recovered and ready to go where I feel like with hypertrophy, we have a little bit more of a leeway there. With that potentially, right where it's like with strength, you're not, you can't use that kind of concept that we talked about of like resting less, and then getting in more volume, because you want to make sure you can move the heavy loads that you need to lose in our move and strength. So that would be kind of the only difference there from like, a strength perspective versus muscle growth.

Philip Pape 15:30

Yeah, in fact, it's kind of cool. You can take a hybrid approach almost where if you're doing a like a heavy, like medium style program, on a heavy day, you're going to take full on rest as long as you need. But light medium day, you're probably pushing speed and volume anyway, so that you can use rest periods as a training variable, you know, you I've had, like programmed in, I'm going to do 30 seconds, or I'm going to use 90 seconds, specifically to show progression week over week based on that rest period. Kind of an interesting angle. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 15:57

no, absolutely. I love that. Cool. Any any anything else you wanted to add to that one or anything? You want to?

Philip Pape 16:01

Keep going? Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 16:03

good. We gave people plenty of plenty stuff, I think to work with on that. But we never really gave an exact number. And that's unfortunately, I feel like how it always is going to be you're never going to get an exact number with things there. One

Philip Pape 16:13

to 10 minutes there. No, no 30 seconds to 10 minutes.

Jeff Hoehn 16:16

Figure it out. Cool. All right. So another question I got was, Are there too many cons of cutting during periods of low sleep? Should I just stay at maintenance calories?

Philip Pape 16:25

So when I hear a question like this, my instinct is just to say yes or no. And then I stepped back as a coach. And I'm like, why are we asking about low sleep? That would be the first question I want to know is, you know, is this a temporary part of your life? Because you're going to have a baby? And you're going to have like three months where you know you're going to be shot? Or is it something you've identified something you've like, accepted as part of your life? Or is it a job issue or something like that with your schedule? And you just can't get around it? I don't know. So that's the first thing I would ask is do you have to have like all this low sleep, because I think sleep is on the top three things that affect your your strength and muscle development and recovery, along with training and nutrition, like in my opinion. So I would ask what it is, if it's, if it's a temporary part of your life, I would say maybe not a good idea to cut at the same time. Right? If cutting isn't something you absolutely have to do for some specific reason. Maybe do it when you you know you're outside of that period, consider the long term consequences of that, because cutting calories on top of sleep deprivation is going to have just a massive impact on your insulin, your hunger hormones, your satiety, your, you know everything, it's gonna be harder to stick to the calorie deficit, let alone the stress that it's putting on your body. So yeah, I would say they kind of go against each other. But if you're going to be at a period of low sleep for the next three years, and there's nothing you can do about it, you might have to make some trade offs to fit in, you know, a very conservative cut at some point. But make the trade off. So you're not going all out aggressive on your cut, and all out five hours of sleep a day. That's my first thought on that.

Jeff Hoehn 17:55

No, I mean, that's a good point, right? It's like, okay, well, why are you getting that that poor sleep? Right? Like, are you just accepting it? Because you don't want to get more sleep? Or is it like you actually have something, you know, going on? Because I think that's like you said, that's super important to find out there. Because you're probably going to have to fix that at some point, if you really want to have, you know, you want to prove your body composition, and things like that. Yeah, no, I mean, those were all great points. And then like you said, though, if you can't like something's going on, and you're not gonna be able to get good sleep for three years, or something like that, or whatever it may be, like, you know, if it is going to be three years, like, yes, going into a less aggressive approach is probably going to be the way to go there with that, right. Like you said, like, you know, maybe we're not going to be able to go all out and lose as much, you know, weight as we want, it might have to be a little bit slower there with that to offset some of that. So those are, those are great points there with that, but I think this person specifically that asked, I think they was like a, I think they just had a new child. So that would certainly be a time they're not going to get great sleep. And we both would probably be like, Hey, we're not going to cut during this time, right. And I think you kind of hit on it. The big things are higher hunger, right cravings, you know, that's going to lead to poor decision making lower willpower, right from that, which is just going to make the deficit harder, just going to, you're just going to have like more friction, like you said, insulin or higher hunger, things like that. But for me, the big thing is the lean body mass loss rate, that would be the thing that I would be most concerned about there with that, you know, with the lean body mass loss, so there was a study, and again, I don't have the exact study here, but they they looked at two groups, right? So one group had eight and a half hours of sleep, another had five and a half hours of sleep. And they both were in an energy deficit, the group that was at five and a half hours, lost more lean body mass, they lost the same amount of weight, but they lost more lean body mass, right. So that just kind of goes to show that, you know, potentially that's going to be a thing that we need to look out for here is that lean body mass loss, which in turn, I think with that leads to other issues down the line, right? We lose lean body mass during fat loss, you're probably going to be a little bit hungrier and then on the way up, you know, you're going to want to regain that weight and now you do that quickly. Now you're going to gain more body fat. Now you're going to be at the same weight but more Fat, less less muscle there. So I think the lean body mass one to me, is the big thing that we need to look out for there with app. So

Philip Pape 20:07

question about that study, do you know what the training and the protein was? Like there?

Jeff Hoehn 20:11

I actually went over this on my Instagram, and I'm pretty sure so I'm gonna pull it up. I'm gonna look, I'm gonna keep talking while I go through this, but I'm pretty sure that they weren't weight training. Right. So that's obviously a big thing there with that. Like, obviously, we want to make sure we wait train. I don't think they track protein. Right? And I would imagine that if these people weren't training, they probably did not care about protein either. So that's a great point. Right. And I think that was one of the kind of caveats I had with this study was that what were those two things there that if you have anything to say, let me know. I'm looking up. Yeah.

Philip Pape 20:43

I mean, nonetheless, and I'm not, you know, challenging it. It's just I always ask those questions about the studies. Because hopefully, if you are training and eating protein, that impact is lessened if not negligible, I don't know. I know sleep deprivation, there are plenty of studies that show just a cascade of very negative impacts, even when you're gaining weight, right in terms of like fat storage, visceral fat storage, and stuff like that. And a lot of people misconstrue, like the lack of sleep and weight gain, as as if it's causing you to gain weight. But I think a lot of it just comes down to the loss of muscle mass, like you said, but and also the hunger, just the ravenous hunger, people will consume, like 500 calories more a day, by just by having an hour or two less of sleep on an ad libitum type type diet. So did you did you find it? Well, I

Jeff Hoehn 21:28

did it and so on that real quick before it before I dive into that, like you said, in from my understanding, we just have this higher propensity to want more highly palatable food. And that process as well to which you know, that's going to lead to like eat, you know, higher, like, you're going to want that that tastier stuff. So if you have that on top of it, your willpower is lower, like, you're just going to want more and more of that there. So that's going to be an issue. So with this study, so I did mention there was some limitations. So this is by the del Sheva in 2010. So just just to give somebody actual name there for that they might post I made, I said, there were some limitations to the study, it was a small sample size, so it wasn't a lot of people. Okay, um, it was only 14 days. So it was only two weeks, they didn't lift weights. And obviously, when we look at lean body mass, it's not just muscle, right? It can also be glycogen storage, it can be bones, organs, water, and everything else that is in body fat. So we also need to take that into consideration there with that, so yeah,

Philip Pape 22:24

yeah, and I don't want the person asking the question, to use any of that as a reason not to listen to everything we're saying here, which is, don't cut aggressively and lose sleep all at the same time Pick, pick one or the other, or make the trade off, I see it as kind of like a seesaw. You know, one, one can be a little worse, one a little better. And you can, as one gets better, you've got a little more leeway on the other. It's just a matter of trade offs, and how you feel really the biofeedback that you're tracking along the way. Yep.

Jeff Hoehn 22:48

And I know probably anybody that's gotten poor sleep, like you just know how it can, how it can impact you. From that perspective, I think the motivation to write like, now you're going to be less motivated to train and want to do those things that you that you need to do as well, too. So cool. Yeah. So again, this would definitely be a time that I like, and it sounds like you're in agreement with me, like, if it's a short term thing, we're probably not going to fat loss diet. During this time. I literally, I just actually, before we hopped on here, I had a conversation with a client about meal thinking about going into fat loss. And it's just like, I mean, if you if you don't do it right now, it's like, can you never do it again? Like, do you have to do it right now? You know what I mean? It's like, I think a lot of times, we think that we have to like go into it right now. And if we're not fat loss, dieting, we're not gonna see any progress whatsoever. And that's just not the case. Right? So I think sometimes taking the pressure off of that can be super helpful.

Philip Pape 23:36

For sure. Yeah. And a good coach or community who's telling you that just like, Look, do you really have to do this? If not, I'm giving you the tough love. Let's not you're gonna feel so much better. We can fit it in another time when it makes more sense. Let's check all the boxes first. And let's go. So yeah. All right. You want to go to the next one? Yeah, for sure. yet? I'm ready. So Question three. This is the last one from Jeff community. And I'm asking it to Jeff question. I'm gaining a little too much weight in a building phase. What do I do? Yep.

Jeff Hoehn 24:01

Cool. I like this, because I thought this was a great question. Just because, again, you know, a lot of times people have that urge to just go back to cutting. Right? So I think real quick, I'll go what I described as a building phase, because I think there's some semantics involved with this, like, what exactly is the building phase? Right? To me, a building phase is just a period of time where you're out of a calorie deficit, right? You could be at maintenance, you could be in a surplus, but we're trying to minimize fat gain, maximize muscle growth, and really just the main thing is we're trying to get out of a calorie deficit, right. So you know, within that kind of parameters there, you may end up gaining some weight, right? So I think the big thing is, you know, if you get to a point where you gain too much weight, like what do I do? Do I just go back to cutting or, or whatnot. And I think we have some options here is it isn't just hey, you have to do you just have to cut right and I think doing that too much I think can lead to issues, right? If you just go straight into like, Oh, I've gained a little bit of weight I need to go back to cutting. I think that's from body comp standpoint. I think you're setting yourself up for failure in that situation. So I think if you can find some ways to potentially improve your adherence for whatever it is, during this building phase, it can go a long way. So the first thing I would do in this situation is I would run an energy audit with a client, right? So an energy audit is going to be like, Okay, are we out here? Are we to the plant? Right? Are you adhering? And you know, a lot of times I think people think they're more adherent than what they are. And then you actually, like, dive into and it's like, holy crap, I'm actually only adherent 60% of the time. It's like, well, boom, you don't need to make any adjustment. Just frickin we need to improve that. Yep, that's the big thing first, and that's the boring like, oh, no, that that can't be the issue. But, you know, Philip, I'm sure you can say the same thing here. Like when it comes to nutrition, adherence is the issue.

Philip Pape 25:34

I think,

Jeff Hoehn 25:36

I think you're gonna see 90% I think I'm underselling how much it is. So it's at least 90%. And probably more than that, probably 99%. Right. So looking at adherence, and I think, you know, so again, like, that's the first thing that I would do on there that also looking at just your movement, where's your movement at? Right? Could that potentially be increased? So again, is it just your steps, or whatever it is, has that potentially gone down? So kind of looking at that, but from there, you know, I think when it comes to I don't know, everybody's little bit different in terms of how they monitor food intake with their clients and stuff like that, but I do like to have clients track calories and like, at least protein. And so for them, that's going to be, you know, are there some potential tracking errors that are going on? And again, if adherence isn't the issue, the next thing that really can hurt people from like, a calorie perspective is tracking inaccuracies. And it's, some of it is on purpose, right. But I think a lot of the times, it's on accident as well, too. I think that's more of an issue than anything is just on accident, right? You, you know, you forget, you know, I couldn't even tell you what I ate, you know, yet? Well, I could, that's a bad example. But you know, some people can't remember what they ate, you know, or they can't remember what they did yesterday. So how are they? How are they going to remember what they ate? You know what I mean with that. So, you know, that's the first thing there is, you know, you might forget to just block some things, you got a million things going on, too. You know, even if something says it has a certain amount of calories, it can be off by up to 25% plus or minus, right. So then we already have that, like, that's a potential issue right there on that you can be off, if you like to go out to eat, you know, just because someone says it's 500 calories, the chances of it actually having 500 calories are slim to none, right? I mean, the depends on the chef, how they make it, what the you know, who's working with what serving size they give you their with that. But then there is, again, people just forgetting how to or the serving sizes side of things, right. So again, like getting your serving sizes off could be could be a big problem, as well to there with that. So, you know, looking at your tracking, are you tracking your condiments? Are you tracking correctly, right? And typically, you'll you'll find that people are off there with that and potentially fixing that, right. So we're going to run an energy audit there and see if there's anything that can change there with that. And, again, most of the time, you're going to find that, hey, that's off. So then, you know, that's the first thing that we can do there is work on that adherence to everything, run that energy audit and see where we need to make any adjustments on there. If that. So that'd be the first thing. And again, like I said, a lot of times, that's going to help, because you know, when you go into building phase, you're going to, you're going to get to the point to where maybe you aren't tracking as much now because you're not in a fat loss phase. So you know, you have that, you know, to potentially look at there with that. So I don't know if you had anything I have a few more. I didn't know if you wanted to comment on that one first, before I go into the other ones. Yeah,

Philip Pape 28:05

you're already knocking off all the bullets on my notes, which is no surprise. Because the first thing I said, the first thing I would have asked is how are you tracking because I want to look at all of that, like you said that the errors, the adherence, everything else, as well as look at the expenditure side of the equation, some people may not even know either what surplus they need to be in to gain the weight they want to gain, they are in the wrong surplus for what they're trying to gain. And that's what I want to touch on in a little bit. And or, like you said, you know, things are shifting in a direction that is unknowable, because your tracking is off. And so data, data data, right? Like the better the data coming in, the easier the decisions going out. And then if you're just not making the choices based on what the data is telling you, that is a different issue. So why don't you finish your list? And I want to just address one piece that I that I might be a different angle here. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 28:53

those are all great points, man. Like I agree. And I think the calorie one is, is a huge one that a couple other ones I had the other options you have. So again, running the energy audit, and like I said, most of the time, like you're gonna, you'll probably find something there that you can fix on with that. Again, it's something there from adherence or anything like that. Next, you know, if you do find that everything's good, and like you said, you might just be eating more calories than you want potentially. Or maybe you just like pick the wrong number. Or, again, you're accidentally just eating more overall, you can decrease your calories closer to maintenance, right? I think a lot of times people think that like, Oh, hey, I have to be in a calorie surplus, I have to be in a calorie surplus to build muscle. That's the only way and it's like that's not necessarily the case. Right? Like I think that, again, the leaner you are, the more muscle you want to build, okay, we probably want to push a calorie surplus but if you have a moderate amount of body fat, you know, you want to push like your trainings in a good spot or, yeah, if you're on the leaner side, you want to build a lot of muscle like at some point you will need to get into a calorie surplus right to continue to build muscle but I think if you fall outside of those things where you're like it moderate body fat levels, you know, you don't want to be Mr. Olympia right like you have some wiggle room here too. don't necessarily have to be in a calorie surplus, right? And I think even within a building phase, like yeah, maybe you started out lean and you have a lot of muscle, but then you kind of gained some body fat in the building phase, like, I still think you have some wiggle room there to potentially go down to maintenance and continue to build muscle, right? Because again, you're you're at higher body fat levels. Now, I think people underestimate that aspect of an energy surplus is what are your current body fat levels, because that's, that's stored energy that you have, right? Right then and there, right. So you know, you have that option as well to to decrease your calories closer to maintenance, as well, too. And that's, you know, you can kind of recap in a way, right, maybe you're not going to lose body fat, but you're going to be adding some muscle with not adding any more body fat. In that process. Again, so long as your train is in a good spot, your, your sleeps good, you're getting enough protein and things like that,

Philip Pape 30:43

for sure, man, I want to piggyback off that, because the idea of going back to maintenance. First of all, I love that idea is like a reset. Because if you if something else is off if your adherence or movement or tracking has changed. And the movement I know we didn't talk a lot about but I mean, if you you know, if you're if you're moving 5000s, you know, steps less a day, because you're no longer in fat loss, you're like, Well, I don't need to move as much that could be, you know, pushing down your metabolic rate, and all of a sudden, you're in an accidental surplus, not even meaning to be. But the idea of going back to maintenance. If you do that, and then you're still gaining weight, you know, you weren't really at your maintenance, like, you know, you didn't end up paying maintenance. So that tells you something, too, one little extra thing I want to throw in here is let's say you're doing all the things and you are tracking well, and you know, your step count, and everything's consistent. And you're still quote unquote, gaining more than you want. I would ask, are you calculating the surplus correctly, if you have a coach, hopefully they know what they're doing, and they're getting you in the right surplus. But one rule of thumb I've been using a lot lately is the 2500 Calorie rule. And I want to explain that for the listener. Because a lot of people don't have heard about this, we know about the 3500 Calorie rule, right, roughly 3500 calories of energy in a net pound of adipose tissue a net pound of fat to lose fat. So when we lose weight, if we want to go one pound a week, it's 3500 calories, or 500 calories a day. Pretty simple, like cocktail mat, napkin math, when you gain weight, however, we're not just gaining fat, right, we're gaining some ratio of fat and muscle muscle being about five times as dense as fat means that you don't need as many calories to gain one pound that contains half of as muscle. And so it's roughly two thirds. If you just ballparked it and said okay, instead of a pound a week, I would actually need to gain two thirds, not pound, but two thirds of the calories a week to gain that pound, if I'm going in a surplus. And therefore if you're using the 3500 Calorie rule, you're actually eating a third more than you intended. So just a cool little fact for people trying to like fun, suck it and figure out their maintenance, their surplus calories is actually going to be less than in a fat loss phase.

Jeff Hoehn 32:45

Yeah. And again, to piggyback off that, like I think that's great. I think that's a great way to set it up to make sure you don't, you know, gain too much fat in the process. I like and maybe you do this too, but I like going off of like percentage of body weight gain as well, because I'm kind of that kind of tells you where exactly it's at. Right? Like if you start gaining a little bit too much weight, you know, Jetstar, the quicker you gain weight, the more it's going to be body fat. So if you can kind of go off of where your your weight is trending over time, like that can be super helpful on there to make sure that you are you know, it's going towards more muscle than body fat. Yeah,

Philip Pape 33:17

I like point two 2.3 For most people, I don't know if you're in that range to that's like, yeah, ends up being

Jeff Hoehn 33:23

about like a percent a month or something like that. When you when you kind of zoom out there with that. Yeah, I mean, that's the way to go. Because then you can kind of like that helps. In your specific example there where it's like if you set your calories too high, because you have to be a certain amount of calories per week, like, oh, I need to be a 500 calorie surplus. It's like, well, for you, that may not be a 500 calorie surplus. It may be more, maybe less, because our bodies are you know, pretty adaptive. From that perspective, there was that.

33:48

Before I started working with Philip, I had been trying to lose weight and was really struggling with consistency. But from the very beginning, Philip took the time to listen to me and understand my goals. He taught me the importance of fueling my body with the right foods to optimize my training in the gym, and I lost 20 pounds. More importantly, I gained self confidence. What sets Phillip apart is the personal connection. He supported and encouraged me every step of the way. So if you're looking for a coach who cares about your journey as much as you do, I highly recommend Phillip Pape.

Jeff Hoehn 34:30

So the other option and this is kind of like this isn't super helpful, but it then they could just keep going as well too, right? Because, you know, at the end of the day if you really want to build muscle like I think you've been taking some time away from like being out of a calorie deficit like yeah, you're gonna gain a little bit more body fat in the process, but is that the absolute worst thing in the world right now if you're gaining crazy amounts of body fats like okay, obviously you're gonna you know, depending on where your body composition is at, you might want to work on that but at the end of the day, is it the worst thing in the world to gain a little bit of body fat for you? For a period of time, right, like, is that going to be the worst thing for your physique? Is that going to be the worst thing for your health? You know, probably not, again, unless you're already over 20% as a male over 25% is female like then okay, maybe we probably don't want to just keep adding body fat, but that's my next one. That's just like, potentially just just keep going on with it. You know, I think that's that's another option as well, too.

Philip Pape 35:19

That's true, because we didn't even ask the person when they say a little too much weight. Is it just a reframing thing? Is it just they're uncomfortable with something that they've never done before? And maybe this is a female too, because I tend to get that I tend to not have problems with most of my male clients gaining weight. They're like, yeah, deadlifts are going up. Let's keep going. But you know, more with women that I'm feeling uncomfortable, I'm feeling fluffy. My pants are a little tight. Maybe that's where we focus on all the other things that are going up in a positive direction. You know, like our lifts, and like our bicep circumference, and all the other fun things? Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 35:50

no, I mean, like, like I said, you know, yeah, looking at other things, and reframing it is super important. Because again, you may not act like you said, What is that little bit of weight? Is it like, Hey, you gained two pounds over six months, like, okay, all right, that's a different than, hey, you've gained 15 pounds in six weeks? Right? That's a different conversation. So definitely clarifying that, as I'm sure you've noticed, with being coached to like you got it, you do need to ask these kind of follow up questions. There if that So, alright, so the next one would be just enter your building phase, right. But I want to caution on this. Because I think if you're only been doing it for six weeks, it comes back to what we talked about earlier, you need to work on the adherence, you need to work on these other things first, right, like, that's going to be the most important thing. But if you've been doing it for 1824 30 weeks, you know, maybe it's just time to end the building phase. Now at this point, right. So, you know, that's another option there where, you know, kind of seeing where you're at, and how long you've been in the building phase can be key. Again, like I said, if you've been not doing it for a while, we need to work on these other things. But if it's been a while, hey, maybe it's just timed to end it at that point. Yeah,

Philip Pape 36:50

exactly. I mean, it really depends on why they're asking the question. So I'm also good with, you know, five, six months continuous building is a nice point to shoot for, to know for sure. You've got all the enabling them that you can out of the phase and not cut yourself short die these days, like to go nine or 10 months, because then you do a mini cut for two months, and now you're eating a lot of food 10 months out of the year. And who doesn't like that? Right? Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 37:12

absolutely love love eating that food. Yeah, no, I agree, though, I think if you can, because I think when it comes to building muscle, I think there's some momentum to it, right. And I think if you're kind of going in and out, you're just going to break up that momentum, and you're never really going to, you're just not going to be happy with your physique, you know, long term with that. So So I think having that momentum on the super key there with that, and then you kind of just hit on the one that you said there the last option. And I leave this last because, again, I think this is dependent on the person in your experience and everything like that. But the last one would be doing a mini cut. Right? And I think it depends on your kind of definition of mini cut, because like I said initially, like with the building phase, it is partly semantic, like in terms of like, Hey, is it a bulking phase, like it just depends, right. And I think with fitness, there's a lot of this like, it's one person means this it this way another. And so when I say a mini cut, I'm talking a mini cut, during a building phase where you like, you would decrease your calories more than what you'd like typically do and like a regular cut, right? This is like a very short term, like anywhere from like three to six weeks where you really cut your calories. And you could potentially use a mini cut now, in that, you know, you're really going to decrease your calories. And the goal is going to be Yes, a little bit of fat loss, but part of it is going to be ramping up your hunger. So you know, if hunger is something that you're dealing with, where you're having a lot of hunger, this might not be a good option for you, because part of the mini cut is you're going to increase your hunger on their fat, and it's going to give you more runway to continue adding weight. But what I will say I would only do this, if you're very experienced Dieter, and you're working with a coach, those would be like, if you fall outside of that, which I would say most people fall outside of that I wouldn't do I would be careful with mini cut. But again, this comes down to you know, you mentioned the mini cut, you may mean something slightly different from that. So I'm curious to kind of hear your thoughts on that.

Philip Pape 38:54

Yeah, I mean that in that case, I just made a short duration cut between my bulking cycles. However, I did on my last building phase, do a two week like Bill Campbell ask Rapid Fat Loss protocol. And it was like an experiment with the whole community, like 12 Other people sign on, we did it together. And that was just it wasn't even for hunger. It was more of an experiment of can we reset things just a little bit, you know, on the scale before we continue and it worked pretty well, right? Because you could cut a lot in two or three weeks if you're just going all out. And honestly after you've been eating for eight months, you might feel like it's a nice relief for a while on your gut and everything else. And then you just you know you lop off three or four pounds of pure fat and then you continue for another four months after that. So yeah, that's what I meant. Yeah.

Jeff Hoehn 39:37

So So sounds like it was yeah, pretty pretty similar to kind of the the definitions there because kind of like you said, you know, I think sometimes when people hear many cut, they think it's just like a short term cut, like I'm just gonna cut for four weeks, right? And yes, that is a mini cut. But this is where like, we need to be careful with like definitions and kind of what exactly you mean there. So those are the things you can do if you gain a little too much weight in your building phase. One last thing that I want to hit on real Quick on this and this kind of overlaps. Everything is if you don't feel like you're making good progress in your building phase. I think sometimes people put too much stock in the nutrition. While it is important, right? What did I say was one of the main goals of building phase, we want to be out of a calorie deficit. But I think people overlook the training side of things they want to like, have this perfect macros play perfect surplus. It's like, okay, well, what's your training look like? And it's like, oh, well, you know, I just go and do this, they don't have a game plan. You look, they're training six plus reps in the tank, or they're not doing enough volume, it's like, do your training needs to be on point, that's the most important. So if you feel like you're not seeing the results that you want to see in a building face, like, look at your training, I think that's the most important thing and see if you can make that a little bit more geared towards hypertrophy, you know, if obviously, building muscle is your main goal, so that kind of over laps, everything there. Um, with that, that would go into like, the first thing that we would be looking at on this wall, too.

Philip Pape 40:50

Yeah, 100%, you don't want to go to waste. You don't want all that weight gain to go to waste. And hopefully, there's things you can track that can tell you that that's happening, like your waist size is just ballooning. And your lifts are not going up. I mean, right there. That's a pretty obvious indicator. But uh, yeah, no, I think we covered a lot on that one, we feel free to go to the next question. If you're good. Yep. I think that's I think it's us. Okay. No, no. All right.

Jeff Hoehn 41:10

So this is from your community. So how do I adjust my programming during the transition from a bulk to a cut? Which training variables are most important?

Philip Pape 41:18

So you know, this is a big topic, right? Like, we could easily fit a two hour long episode talking about training during a cut. And originally, I was going to answer the question directly, like, what are the variables I care about. And at the end of the day, I think they all matter. I like intensity, you know, like load as the driving variable for holding on to that muscle mass. But I do think there's a still a lot of play between, with volume with sets with recovery, too, because recovery is going to be even more important, if you want to think of it as its own training variable can be helpful. When it comes down to those the overall answer here is, if you can have a program that helps you auto regulate, you mentioned autoregulation, before in a different context, but for training, whether it's rep ranges, whether it's percent, or whether it's RPE, even set progression, like a lot of ways to do that, you'll be able to continue pushing and training hard, you know, we talked training, hard proximity to failure, if you rep shy of failure, whatever that means. And that's really what we're trying to get right is that stimulus. So for me, I like hypertrophy style programs with rep ranges, I like, like percent RM based like Westside style can be actually useful in a cut, believe it or not, where you're pushing your one RM for the day, which may not be your PR, but then you can do back offs based on that, so that, you know, you're hitting it hard. And then I also like the idea of spreading out fatigue, not locking yourself in the idea that it has to be three days, five days, six days, whatever, that recovery is very hard to come by, the more deep you get into a fat loss phase. So all of these forms of autoregulation that, that let you just train hard and get the stimulus is kind of the principle based answer that I wanted to start with. And then we can get into things like okay, but what about specific training variables? And this will, I'm going to turn it over to the master Coach and Trainer jumping?

Jeff Hoehn 43:03

No, I mean, that's a good point. Like, I think no matter what, like you said, even if you're in a cutter, ballpark, you want that training intensity to be there. So that's, you know, super important, like that needs to be there. And again, this goes back to like, hey, what's the what are these specific variables? And it's like, are you pushing yourself? Is that effort there? Right? And if that's not there, like you need to make sure that's, that's there. So I think like, as far as like some some smaller things go. I mean, like, when I saw this question, like, the only thing I could really think of that I say would be different because like you hit on the intensity, like we still want that to be there would be maybe like, again, this is from a building muscle perspective, that's usually where I come from on these things is maybe volume, but there's no like direct research that shows hey, you need to do more or less volume, I think it comes back to what you said auto regulating it like like, how do you like, can you recover from it? Or if you are, then you know, you should? Probably, you know, you can keep it the same? Maybe you could add more, right? If you're recovering from it, if you're not recovering from it, do you need to decrease a little bit? Or do you need to look at your sleep and and other things outside you need to improve? Like, if you're going to cut D maybe you need to change your meal timing around and make sure you have plenty of food around your training sessions. Right? Those would be things there with that. But I find that, you know, again, the big thing that you want to do is if you're transitioning from a block to a code is you really don't want to change anything, I think you need to I think you need to train the same right train, like you're still going to build muscle act like you're going to build muscle I think a lot of times, and this is why I hear from clients that are going into phallus eight oh, well, you know, I just know that training is gonna suck. And I know I'm gonna not build any muscle during this period of time. And I'm like, Are you sure though? Are you sure that you're not going to do that? Is that more of a mental thing that you think? Because you've heard this that like, Oh, hey, that's going to happen. This isn't the best. You're not like surplus, you're not going to build muscle. But we have research that shows that you can still build some muscle in a small calorie deficit under the right circumstances, right. So because I think if you go into it thinking like training is gonna suck. I'm not going to build any muscle. I think mentally now you go into your training sessions. And that kind of impacts how hard you can push yourself and your training and then yeah, now you're gonna set yourself up to not It really pushes hard. So I would kind of challenge not you, Phil, Phil up on this, but I would challenge the listener like, are you for sure not going to build muscle? And are you for sure going to like your your train is going to be impacted? Right. So I think another day, you don't want to change how you're training, your weight training in a cut from a bot to a cut?

Philip Pape 45:19

Yeah, yeah. So I have some more things that came up since you just triggered a lot of great discussion there. One is about the maintaining of muscle mass. I mean, we've seen studies that show as little as like 1/8 of the volume is potentially can maintain your muscle mass. Now, I believe that's not necessarily also, while you're in a cut, like there's some trade off you're making. But it takes a lot less volume to make just maintain muscle mass. Like Jeff said, you know, maybe you can still even build a little bit, or you may need to over overcompensate for that, that minimum during fat loss, because you don't have all the resources coming in, you know, you're trying to get the protein higher, you don't have any carbs, you're probably sleep is a little bit tougher to come by. And all of that. The second thing is people don't realize you're losing weight. So if your reps stay the same, and your loads the same, your relative strength just went up, right? That's really important from a framing perspective to say, No, I'm not actually getting weaker, I'm just getting lighter, you know, get it, it's like when you're the other direction, you do chin ups, and you get heavier and you get the same reps. Same thing, you actually just got stronger, right? So think about that. There's also a difference between strength and muscle mass in that, you know, the lack of energy and lack of resources and lack of carbs may cause you to feel like you're less strong, or like you're losing strength, when you might still get the reps and you're still holding on to that muscle. So there's a lot of psychology and mind games going on. And then recovery, I do want to come back to that, especially for us older guys. And ladies, when life is there's a lot of life stress, you know, sleep can be a little bit hard to come by, you know, you're worried about the joints and all that now you're lifting heavy with very few calories coming in, it can all kind of add up together to where you really have to pay attention to that biofeedback of your soreness, and your ability to get through a session, you know, think about like, Are you training fasted or not, because that can make a big difference. When are you eating your carbs during the day, you're gonna have, you might have to make some subtle changes based on this, like limited pie of food coming in. The last thing I was thinking of is if you are more strength focused, and you're doing like a sets across, or a five by five, three by five type program, that is going to be very difficult to progress during fat loss. And you could get discouraged if you're not just pushing the weight every session. So that's where you want to get creative and maybe, maybe switch to like rep range scheme. Or even I've done something in the past Jeff, I did a set space progression during fat loss that was super effective, where you start at like three sets, you do like three, then four, then five, and six, and then reset and a slightly higher load. And the body's ability to kind of handle the submaximal, third fatloss seems to be more effective. And then you're still getting all the volume. So just throw a whole bunch of details in there that I thought that came up from, from what you mentioned. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 47:59

no, I mean, you brought up a ton of great points in there. Yeah, I think you really don't want to change much other than and I think, again, auto regulated, right? Like if you can do if you can do more, and you recovered, then do more if you if you can't, then you know, obviously, look at those other things, see if those can be improved, but understand, hey, it might just be a little bit lower, I do think in a deficit, potentially, everything will just maybe feel a little bit tougher, right? So you maybe need to kind of push through that kind of mental fatigue, like you've mentioned, the mental fatigue, so you might need to push through that a little bit more. And you might start to feel it sooner, right, like in a surplus or maintenance or surplus. It's like your sets of 10. It's like it starts to get hard at rep nine or 10, where it's like in a deficit, it might be seven or eight that it starts to get a little you know, something like that. So keep taking your creatine to imbalance.

Philip Pape 48:47

Keep taking creatine. Yeah, this question was asked by Christos by the way and I know him and crystals, man, just just keep training like you're training when you go into the cut and then see how it feels and report back in our community. We'll see. We'll help you. Yep. All right. Let's go to the fifth question. Again. This is from my community. Evelyn asked this one. Another big hot topic these days. Is menopause and weight loss resistance a thing related to this your advice on programming and nutrition? For women over 50? big topic? Yeah.

Jeff Hoehn 49:13

So I mean, I definitely think that as you age, you know, things change. Right? Do I think that, obviously, there's a ton going on in menopause that, you know, we can't we can't relate to, but there's a ton of, you know, hormonal change going on. Right. So I think that's the big thing there is that it just changes things a little bit, but in those things can definitely impact you. Right. So I know like as your estrogen will go down. And that's going to, you know, that's going to affect many things from from a woman's perspective, right. But I think it's more the lifestyle and I think people underestimate this right. So, you know, I think one kind of common menopausal symptom is like poor sleep, right? What did we talk about sleep earlier, man, that's going to increase your hunger cravings. You're going to be less motivated to do things you're not going to make as good of a chore He says, right. And I think that has a trickle down effect right now you begin, you don't want to go training, maybe you're not moving as much. Now, poor sleep can lead to higher stress, you know, higher stress can lead to like you talked about visceral fat, right? That can lead to some fat accumulation in midsection, particularly, right? So it's, to me, it's more of a trickle down effect of what's going on, right, and maybe not working with your body and instead, trying to work against it and relying on things that maybe you thought, you know, you thought you were supposed to do. And again, maybe worked for you when you're 20. And now it's like your body's just, you know, changing a little bit, and it's just less receptive to it. Right. And I think currently, there's kind of current state of people that are in menopause, that demographic that are going through that currently, they kind of grew up with this, like, you need to be skinny, you need to be as small as possible, right? And that stuff kind of has her with them. Because I know, any client I have in this age range, that's like the thing of like, they're just very, like, if they gain a pound, it's like, oh, my gosh, what is going on? You know, again, that's an overgeneralization. But that's, I don't know if you can relate to that. It seems like that's kind of how it is with this kind of, you know, that demographic,

Philip Pape 51:03

if I if I wake up and I see very long messages from clients, I know. It's easy, like, Please help. And it's this the whole story of what's going on, which is cool. That's what your coaches for. Often it is related to just a little bit of framing and kind of panicking that goes on, but it's okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, to add to some of that, you know, the note, the big note that I had had was, you know, menopause is this major change and transition in your life, it's physical, it's physiological. But it's also tied in for a lot of women with other things that compound that you've got the life stress, you've got kids, which then lead to less sleep, you've got things like hot flashes, which also can interrupt sleep, the loss of muscle mass that has been occurring if you have not been training. And for women, it's exacerbated by the hormonal change and bone density decreased. And we can go on and on. And like Jeff said, lifestyle is the first thing I would go to for all of this stuff. Once you get that dialed in, of course, if things are off, like difficulty, I knew someone who had, you know, she gained like 80 pounds in six months without changing anything, you knew something was up, and it was her thyroid. And that can happen as young as I've seen eight years old, right? So a lot of women out there that, you know, I know, we're talking menopause, but like the gaslighting in the medical industry and everything that leads to decades of not dealing with the issues. But for many women, that's not the case. So I don't want you to use it as like an excuse and the tough love, like, you know, we're a couple dude, coaches here, we've worked with a lot of women, and a lot of them tell me like, just give me the tough love and help me, like, do what I need to do. If I'm doing all those things. And I know there's still an issue, okay, let's, let's look at hormone therapy, and whatever else, and take care of all the things outside the gym as well. Like, definitely train hard with intensity and execution. Ladies, that that's an area of improvement for a lot of you. It's, that's cool. Definitely progress over time, right with to show that expression of strength and muscle mass over time, it's going to make you you know, strong, fierce, lean tone, whatever word you want to use. And all the things outside the gym, you know, your stress the recovery, right, like how we handle food and the emotional issues around food as well. Like it just goes on and on. So it's a big topic. But like Jeff said, like, we have compassion for all of you. And we want to help you win this thing on your own with complete freedom and control using lifestyle changes. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 53:15

no, I mean, he hit on it perfectly. Right. Like, I mean, it is like, like we said, like you said to like, we know it's a tough time, right? Like, very empathetic towards that. Right? Like, oh, pay just, it's, you know, whatever, like, so. Yeah. No, we're not saying that. But, you know, I think a lot of times people overlook that. I would say, from a programming perspective, I can just kind of hit on maybe some few, like, kind of common mistakes I see from a programming and nutrition perspective, with this demographic, I think it's one, I think it's the way they train, right? I think it's, you know, again, it's, I think they're kind of mindset towards exercises. More sweating, or feelings, like the exercise is super hard, getting that heart rate up, I have to feel like super beat up, right, like more cardio based kind of style training. I'm gonna get I think any exercise is great. So I'm don't want to bash that. But I think for this demographic, like, this is where we have to like, again, get out of that mindset of what worked in the past. And now we need to start to shift it towards working with our body. And so like, you kind of hit on it like, hey, let's, you know, let's do some cardio. Right, but let's do it for our heart health. Let's not do it for fat loss purposes, right? That's going to come through some nutrition interventions. But from a training perspective, hey, we, at this point, we need to work on weight training. Again, yes, for muscle, but for bone health, too, right? Like in this demographic. So we need to make sure we weight training needs to be we need it to be in a progressive overload style, as well, too, right. So that's the big thing. So the mistake there is training in a way that's just going to burn the most calories. Right? With that. From a nutrition perspective, I think two big things that I see is one trying to always fat loss diet. Okay, so that's another big mistake here because we talked about losing lean body mass, we talked about the bone density thing, but also if you're not sleeping, well, we this goes back to what we talked about earlier, right? You have that issue and you just have a lot of other stress going on again, adding a calorie to So to that all the time is going to be a stressor on the body. So I'm not saying don't ever fat loss, but I think it would be being smarter about it being in a smaller calorie deficit, and doing it less often there with that, right. And I think the other thing, and these, I guess, kind of go hand in hand, or they're two separate, but I'm going to lump them into one is protein, like I think protein is something that is important. I personally think proteins may be been overblown now, like it's kind of swarmed to where like, people are over relying on protein. But I think in this demographic, you do need to make sure you're hitting about one gram per pound of body weight. Again, if you're overweight, maybe a little bit less than that. But I do think it's important and you know, make sure that you're you're getting enough protein in again, you don't have to get massive, massive amounts, but he makes sure you get enough. But also carbohydrates, right? Do make sure you're getting some carbohydrates as well, too. I think that's only going to help things there with that. And so those would be my kind of like big things, aside from the lifestyle stuff there.

Philip Pape 55:48

Yeah, I love it. I'm glad you mentioned carbs, because that has been a game changer for a lot of women I've worked with. And there's such resistance, sometimes even when they're open minded to the idea of doing it, there's still this like, built in either societal or trained behavior, over years of being told carbs are bad. And I hear it in the A lot of times in the women hosted podcast space, where you've got like the Keto and the low carb, like that is the thing for hormones, you know, for Perry and post menopause. And I'm like, I don't understand it, it may be the thing for an individual for sure. And that's one of the messages we want to get through is like, there's something different for everybody. But ask everybody to experiment with these things. And if you're low on energy, if your training is tough, if your sleep is poor, if your hormones seem off carbs could be the answer, believe it or not, carbs give the answer just eating more food. Speaking of so you cover training. And actually, the original question was also about his weight loss resistance of thing. And I did want to address that quickly. Yep, I think for men and women, as we age, with the loss of muscle mass, if you're fairly sedentary, if you're not training, your metabolic rate is just going to slowly go down over time due to the loss of muscle mass, but also probably lifestyle, you know, you're sleeping less all the things we talked about before, higher stress, less movement, you're sitting at a desk all day, it just all adds up. And so the appearance of weight loss resistance is definitely a thing. It's only resistance, because you can maintain it, you can't maintain your weight on the same counter as you did 20 years ago. Without all these other things, the really exciting part about it is you can reverse that you can bring it back the other direction, so that you can break through and then it doesn't become a thing. Just knowing that for women, it could be a tiny bit going against you with the hormones, but it's it's in the noise compared to the lifestyle signal, if you can, if you can improve that. So just wanted to touch on that. No,

Jeff Hoehn 57:36

man, that's a great point, right? The weight loss resistance, right? It's like not Oh, hey, you're in menopause now. And all of a sudden you can't you know, drop weight. There was that? You know, that's that's not the case. Right? Like, again, like you said, things could be a little bit tougher. But ultimately, it's probably the things that you're doing there in your history of, again, what what do we talk about the the kind of demographic here and like what they've kind of been like taught is like, eat less, move more burn as many calories as possible in that that does, like your body will adapt to that. And so like you said, there it's like, but the cool thing with that is it's not, that's not permanent, right? Like you can do some things to start to improve that as well, too. But you may find that initially, it is a little challenging because your body is just adapted to that. And that's kind of what your body has had to work with. So you kind of sent that message. But But the cool thing is, is you can you can change that by doing some of these things that we

Philip Pape 58:23

that we talked about. Yeah, no, I think that answers it. For Evelyn. So maybe we go to the last one. Cool.

Jeff Hoehn 58:28

Yep. How do you prep before season of going nuts with food? Like Thanksgiving, Christmas? And this is from from John. So, John, you're the only person that would do that?

Philip Pape 58:39

No, but I do love the question. I like I want it in there verbatim. Because I think this is a great reframing opportunity. The first thing I would ask you, John is like, are you really planning to go nuts for like, a multi week or multi month binge fest? Right? That's, that's one thought. Or is this more like, you know, you know that there's a few days coming up here and there the parties in the holidays there one or two days at most? Usually for most people, maybe maybe a few extra days? And is this where your current eating is, is restrictive, and then the holidays come around, you feel like you can't enjoy them because you're trying to adhere to that, you know, form of eating. I mean, that's one thing I would ask just from a reframing is you could probably for a lot of people I would say who I coach just relax and enjoy the day, right? Like just enjoy yourself. You may not even need to track you may not even need to plan and the most that it's going to do is if you over consumed by 2000 calories or 3000 calories, you're still gonna gain less than a pound of body fat. However, however I'm gonna say that if you're gonna enter a period where you expect to indulge more, I would say is everything dialed in to begin with right like for John I'm just gonna say all the other things in the rest is podcasts apply to you too. And is all that dialed in? Because I'll tell you what if it is like I don't I don't even think about holidays anymore. I'm like everything's great holiday comes join myself moving On the next day you get back on track, you don't make up for it, and you move on. However, if you're gonna go on a cruise for a week, I get it, right. There's like Unlimited, very rich foods available to you. Can you plan ahead? Sure, like you can be prudent and have a little bit of restraint, if you'd like ahead of time, and have maybe even do a little mini cut or whatever you can, you know, you can prioritize your protein, you can, you can maybe bank a tiny bit of calories here and there. There's little strategies like that. But I think the most important strategy is just to plan for it, and give yourself a plan of what works for you that doesn't feel restrictive. And that could be like, Okay, I'm gonna have three drinks instead of unlimited drinks, you know, of alcohol, or I'm going to eat all my protein and salad type foods first, and then I'm going to indulge on, you know, grandma's apple pie. Like, it's just simple. We're adults here. And like, I heard somebody say, in a podcast, you can go to the grocery store right now and buy an entire cake and eat the whole cake if you want, like, we have that choice as adults. You're not going to do that, though. And so there's a spectrum of choice here. So let's reframe it. Let's not sweat over it. And let's do all the other things we talked about in this episode, I think it'd be golden. What do you think, Jeff? Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 1:01:07

no man, that those are great points, like definitely, like, have some sort of structure to it, right? I think this were sometimes like, like, from a mental perspective, you can start to see how people think, with some of this stuff, like, oh, I need to, I need it to be all or nothing, right? I either need to be fully on it, or I can't do anything at all. It's like, okay, well, you're, you're missing out on a ton. And if that's your thought process, it's not to me, it's not the Thanksgiving, this issue that now it's a mindset thing that needs to be worked on there with that, right. This reminds me I reached, you know, I like to put money away, you know, for my investments account, you know, my retirement accounts and things like that, well, I kind of got to a number in my head that I needed to put away each month. And it's like, lately, you know, expenses are up. And I haven't been able to put all that in, but I'm like, thinking I'm like, Dude, why I don't need to put that in, I can put in a lesser amount. And it's fine. Like, it's still going to help build it, you know, but I started to see this like, kind of all or nothing mindset dig into it. I think that kind of reminds me of that there. So, but no, you had great points there, like have some sort of structure, something is going to be helpful on there with that. And you may have kind of hit on this, but like some things that I fought over, like, it's not those events that are issues, it's what you're doing outside of it that I think is the most important, like, if you're staying on top of it, then again, maybe not even 100% Well, that's better than you just like, Well, yesterday was Thanksgiving. So you know what, now I'm gonna also go and eat two pizzas for the day, it's like, come on, alright, you know, you need to, you know, what you're doing outside of that's going to be key. But like we said, I think other things that can do are lift weights. Because again, if you're say you are in some sort of energy surplus, and you're lifting weights, well, hey, that's going to be better from, you know, that can help you build some lean body mass on the process, you know, make sure you're moving, getting your steps in, you know, throughout that time, because that's gonna help you expend your or increase your energy expenditure, right? I think this period of time comes with, you know, colder weather. And I think people tend to be less active during this period of time. And if you're not weight training, and you're not staying active, and you are eating a lot of foods, like, where's that food gonna go? You know, you're not really, your body's gonna be like, Oh, well, well, hey, let's store this as body fat, right. Whereas if you stay active, and you lift weights, like that's going to help shuttle that, that food into place, like, again, to your muscle, that will shuttle it to your muscle, right, and you can use it for energy, and it's not going to get stored as body fat. So those would be the big things there with that. And maybe here's one like blessing, I would add to this as maybe kind of reframed, like, when you're going to like, try to drop weight or lose body fat, you know, is that the best time to do it then Right? Can you maybe, you know, from like, October to January, maybe that's your maintenance time, right, you're more focused on just you're not focused on losing weight, you're more focused on lifting weights getting enough food in but not too much. So then that way, it's like, because if you go into the holiday season, coming off a coat, you lost 20 pounds, you're being restrictive, you're super hungry, well, now it's gonna be really hard to manage that period of time. So maybe use that as a time where, hey, I'm not going to fat loss diet during this period of time, I'm gonna wait till you know, January starts or something like that, you know, it's just another potential thing you can add in there.

Philip Pape 1:03:54

Yeah, that that was actually added. I wrote that as you were talking, and then you, you beat me to it. But yeah, aligning your period of periodization of your nutrition with the year or with the seasons is really good. I mean, I almost inevitably do that with clients, we try to kind of, depending on when they start during the year, we look at that, and we say, okay, it doesn't make sense to be fat loss, you know, have a fat loss phase here, or would we rather be eating more here, and this can go for the short term as well, if you know, you're going to have two week long vacation or you're going on a trip or something like that. Those are moments for diet breaks, those are moments for going back to maintenance. If it's a bunch of those, like in a short period, like three or four months, maybe that's your bulking or your maintenance season. I know Jeff, you're you're big on like recomp and maintaining kind of that leanness. So, but I would even say if if you're willing to just gain the weight, that's a perfect time to do it as well. I tried to do that because most people who aren't tracking any of this stuff who are not in our world, gain all their weight in those couple years. Yeah, months of the year, which is insane. When you think we got 12 months out of the year and the gain at all then, but if you intentionally gain there because you're building muscle, then great then you just solve the problem. You just offset problem, because the rest of the year tends to be easier, quote unquote. Yeah,

Jeff Hoehn 1:05:03

no, absolutely. And, yeah, just make sure you're lifting weights in that process. You know, I think anytime you're if you're going to be gaining a little bit of weight, if you can lift weights, that's going to help offset some of that weight gain, you know, at least helps shuttle it to for better use on their app. So yeah, man, I

Philip Pape 1:05:18

think that's it. I don't know if we want to add anything else to this or shelter. I feel good with it. Cool, man. So I mean, that was a lot of questions. But I thought it was nice to have both of us there and kind of share our perspectives and yet bounce off each other. And, you know, thank you for doing this. Because this is co hosted episodes, drop it on to podcast, if you're listening, it's Whitson weights and the mind muscle connection. And you got to see some similar but unique perspectives from two different coaches who both, you know, can we care a lot about our clients and about you as a listener, as well. And at the end of the day, you've got to find what works best for you, and find the information and a community or coach that can help you, especially if you want to, like accelerate getting to that answer for you. So those are those are my closing thoughts.

Jeff Hoehn 1:05:57

Yeah, no, I want to thank you for like I said, You got all this setup, man. I thought this was super fun. And I would love to do more of these. I think it's really cool to get these questions from both of our communities and share our thoughts on them, as well. But ya know, I mean, like you said, there was a ton of information in here, but I think probably the takeaways are, get good sleep, lift some weights, and look at your mindset and work on that with the coach, because that can be super helpful there with that. So yeah, ton of great information, I think a ton that you can take away in this. So yeah, I think now I'll hand it back to you there for

Philip Pape 1:06:29

that. Yeah, yeah. And for those listening, like, if you want to hear us do this, again, send us a message. You know, we both have our contact information in the show notes, whether it's IG or email and send us your questions or just tell us what you thought about the show and anything we could do differently. And to the Whitson weights community. Don't forget to look for the mind muscle connection in your podcast app. Go subscribe and follow right now. You won't regret it. You'll get a ton of awesome episodes in the near future. I think he drops like three weeks of just solid gold. And I'll include the link to the show in my show notes. Yep,

Jeff Hoehn 1:06:58

absolutely. And same thing for my audience. Go fall Whitson waits, subscribe leave a comment as well too. I'm Phillip loves those comments as well. He loves He loves getting those I know you also have a really good community on this wall too. And I think you just opened your replica education platform as well too. I think that you

Philip Pape 1:07:15

Yeah, man. Oh, thanks for the plug as well with some weights physique University, its courses and community. Yeah. Sounds

Jeff Hoehn 1:07:20

awesome. Sounds like stuff that would be right up the audience's alley there that social media definitely go check that out. And again, man, appreciate you putting this together. You definitely have to say and I said this earlier, Phil, Phil definitely took the lead on this and really got it together. So appreciate that. And like I said, it was super organized all on your part. I'm so appreciate that. Man.

Philip Pape 1:07:38

given each other spot. That's what we do. Yeah. All right. It was a lot of fun, man. Thanks for doing this yet. Thank

Jeff Hoehn 1:07:43

you, too. I had fun.

Philip Pape 1:07:46

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their weights or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 4/30/24 Philip Pape 4/30/24

Ep 168: Reverse Dieting is a Complete Waste of Time

Are you worried about regaining fat after a successful cut? Is reverse dieting really a shortcut to a faster metabolic rate, or just a fitness fad? Are you ready to ditch the reverse dieting rollercoaster?

In this eye-opening episode, Philip (@witsandweights) dives into the controversial world of reverse dieting. You’ve probably heard the buzz about how it can boost your metabolism, prevent fat regain, and make future weight loss a breeze. But is it the magic solution it’s cracked up to be?

Philip cuts through the noise, reveals the hard facts, and dismantles the myths surrounding reverse dieting, backed by science and practical insights. He dives into the metabolic science, behavioral psychology, and practical alternatives that work far better for post-diet recovery and long-term weight maintenance.

If you're considering reverse dieting after your cut, listen all the way through so you understand both the mechanisms AND the more time-efficient strategies Philip will give you so you don’t ever need to reverse diet again. It’s time to rethink your approach and embrace smarter, more efficient methods!

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:28 What is reverse dieting
6:48 Metabolic adaptation
10:01 Regaining body fat and maintenance calories
17:06 Does it increase your starting metabolic rate?
20:08 What to do instead of reverse dieting
25:00 Why people do the reverse diet
32:31 Outro

Episode resources:

Watch this FREE video on how to setup MacroFactor for body recomp and try MacroFactor FREE with my code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Episode summary:

In the ever-evolving landscape of fitness and weight management, one concept has recently come under scrutiny: reverse dieting. Philip Pape challenges the traditional notions of this practice in a thought-provoking podcast episode that dissects the science behind immediate calorie maintenance post-diet and its effectiveness compared to reverse dieting.

The episode kicks off with an in-depth exploration of reverse dieting, where Philip provides a critical examination of the metabolic science and behavioral psychology behind it. He suggests that reverse dieting may be overhyped, supported more by anecdotal evidence than by solid scientific data. The concept of slowly increasing caloric intake to boost metabolism and prevent fat regain, Philip argues, may be unnecessary and could prolong the physical and psychological stress associated with calorie deficits.

Delving deeper into the topic, Philip confronts the myths surrounding reverse dieting head-on. He emphasizes that a gradual increase in calories post-diet may not be necessary for everyone. He clarifies that while some weight gain is normal when transitioning from a deficit to maintenance, this is typically due to changes in water and glycogen levels rather than an increase in fat. By understanding one's maintenance calorie needs and embracing a more immediate return to maintenance calories, individuals can avoid the unnecessary extension of their diet and the potential risks that come with it.

Philip also touches on the physiological reality of post-diet metabolism, dismantling the myth that reverse dieting can lead to an enhanced metabolic rate for future weight loss. He presents evidence that indicates the body's metabolism will naturally return to normal levels once calorie intake is increased. Moreover, he discusses the concept of a "recovery diet," which promotes a quick adjustment to maintenance calories, enabling faster recovery from dieting without the need for a gradual calorie increase.

The episode then shifts to practical considerations for those unsure about their maintenance calorie needs. Philip points out that individuals who have been diligent with tracking their caloric intake throughout their diet likely have a better understanding of what their maintenance calories should be. He notes that for physique competitors and those who have undergone extreme diets, a more cautious approach to increasing calories might be warranted due to the specific metabolic and digestive adaptations they may have experienced.

As the episode wraps up, Philip introduces the MacroFactor app as a tool for listeners to log their food intake and analyze metabolic changes. He argues that using data-driven methods to quickly and effectively reach maintenance calories post-dieting is far superior to the nebulous practice of reverse dieting. With the app, users can accurately track and adjust their maintenance calories, allowing for a personalized approach to weight management.

Philip presents a compelling case for immediate maintenance calorie adjustment over reverse dieting. By basing weight management strategies on scientific evidence and practical application, he empowers listeners to sustain their results and challenge the fitness status quo. It's an essential listen for anyone seeking to maintain their weight loss achievements in a sustainable and scientifically sound manner.

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Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Maybe you've heard the claims that slowly increasing calories, in what's called reverse dieting can boost your metabolism, prevent fat rebound, and make future weight loss a breeze. Or even that it's a simple way to get back to maintenance calories without overshooting. It sounds tempting, like this magic bullet that eases your transition out of a diet without erasing your hard earned progress. A nice simple solution that almost every coach out there says you should use. But as I'll show you today, reverse dieting is a complete waste of time, backed by more hype than science, if you are tracking in a few important areas. In today's episode, I'm going to break down exactly why and what to do instead for faster recovery and sustainable results without worrying about body fat overshooting. If you're serious about optimizing your nutrition and doing it in a time efficient way, get ready to challenge what you thought you knew about reverse dieting. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the weights and weights podcast. In our last episode 167 optimize your thyroid for hormone health, metabolism and fat loss with Haley fountain. We explored thyroid health which affects everything from your weight and metabolism to your sleep and even your mental health. You learn how to manage your weight when you have a thyroid condition. The link between minerals and thyroid function and why exercise and nutrition are so important and what you should be doing, as well as how the mind body connection and sleep all play into thyroid health. Today for episode 168 Reverse dieting is a complete waste of time, we are going to bust some myths surrounding the popular but misguided practice of reverse dieting. Many people and even some well respected coaches, many whom I follow and some are my mentors claim that reverse dieting can boost your metabolism, prevent Rapid Fat regain and make future weight loss easier. Others simply recommend it as a tool to slowly pull out of a deficit without overshooting and gaining body fat. But as we'll see today, none of these reasons really hold up. The claim that I am making today is that reverse dieting is a complete waste of time. And I'll explain exactly why we're going to dive into the metabolic science, the behavioral psychology, the practical alternatives that work far better for post diet recovery, and long term weight maintenance. And if you are considering reverse dieting after a cut, listen all the way through so you understand both the mechanisms and the more time efficient strategies that I'll give you. So you don't ever need to reverse diet again. Now before we get into that topic, I do want to invite you to join our amazing and totally free Facebook community. In that community and that group we come together to support to encourage each other to inspire each other on our nutrition and fitness journeys from 100% positive perspective, no bullies are allowed. And as a member of our Facebook group, the big thing that you get access to is the exclusive weekly live q&a sessions. And this is where you post during the week, you can post your question about anything related to your nutrition and fitness wellness with context for you specifically, and then I will answer it live on Friday, and the replay will be available. You also find a ton of free guides resources and other things that we drop just to the community so you can stay on track and reach your goals. Most importantly, though, you'll be part of a bunch of really cool like minded people in a group that I think is like no other we are all working toward becoming the best versions of ourselves. And you can get formed checks you get motivation, you can get specific tips, whether it's equipment, or food or apps or whatever. And we love to celebrate each other's wins and successes, give helping hands when asked and then motivate when needed as well. So just head over to Facebook search for the Whitson weights community or click the link in the show notes to join us. Alright, so let's dive into today's topic. Reverse dieting is a complete waste of time and we're going to start of course with definitions. What the heck is reverse dieting, maybe you haven't heard of it before, or if you have one a little refresher. So reverse dieting is gradually increasing calories, usually by 50 to 100 per week, maybe 200 calories for several weeks or potentially months after, usually after finishing a cut or a fat loss phase and weight loss phase. And the idea is to slowly build Up to new maintenance. It could also be used when you were first getting started. And you've been dieting for a long time. And then a coach says, well, we need to reverse diet you up to your maintenance, you know, so that you can eat more food and burn more calories and so on. Now, Proponents claim that this approach, not all proponents, let's be honest, but a lot of them will say that this repairs your metabolism or fixes your metabolism after the supposed damage of dieting, and that it prevents Rapid Fat regain from jumping to maintenance or above it Prime's you for easier fat loss in the future by elevating your metabolic rate. And some other coaches simply claim that it's the best way to return to your maintenance calories to do it, you know, slowly over time, and you don't overshoot. So some coaches claim some or all of these, and even other things besides that, and basically, the theory is that your metabolism slows down during a diet, which does happen, and that you need this long, gradual reverse dieting process to restore it and avoid overshooting into weight gain. And I understand the surface level appeal of these claims. Because dieting is hard. And we'd all love a magic bullet to make both diet life easier and more predictable. But unfortunately, the science doesn't really support the necessity, or the efficacy of reverse dieting, particularly if you have the right information and you're tracking the right things. And that's where tracking is going to come in. We'll get to that later in the episode. If of course you lack certain information. And you don't have the complete picture. Reverse dieting might be the fallback simply because you can't go after the most efficient approach. But you're listening to which and wait. So we are all about the wits side of that supporting the weights in that we want to do things intelligently and efficiently. So let's get into a little bit more about metabolic adaptation. Because this is the underpinning a lot of a lot of the arguments for reverse dieting. So first of all, describing post diet, metabolic adaptation, or the metabolic adaptation that occurs during dieting, as any form of damage or irreparable harm is completely misleading. Because yes, your metabolism typically slows down as you lose weight. But it's completely recoverable. And it happens for two reasons. Number one, you're simply losing weight, so you have a smaller body that requires less energy, period. Number two, and this is what I think is really what we talked about with metabolic adaptation, your body down regulates its hormones to conserve energy in response to being in that deficit. And that has a cascading effect. Now, there's a third element to why your metabolism might go down, that is more what's in your control. And that is your changing activity, or your lack a lack of sleep, or you drink alcohol, or maybe even your cycle, or let's see too much chronic stress, right? There's all these little things that can, the things that are in your control your lifestyle, changes your lifestyle decisions that can make your metabolism go up and down. independence of the fact that number one, you're lighter. And number two, the hormonal metabolic adaptation. So the slowdown that just happens naturally, that's out of your control, which we can call adaptive thermogenesis as well. It is not at all any form of long term damage. It is more like a survival mechanism that we evolved so that we don't starve to death in a famine. And that's all it is. And it's 100% reversible. We know this, because bodybuilders who go through extreme cuts, to the most leanest level, you can imagine. They reverse right out of it. And I use the word reverse. But we're going to talk about the alternative to reverse dieting, but I'm using reverse just in the colloquial sense that they, you know, reverse the direction out of it. And they are able to get back to their previous metabolism eventually,

Philip Pape 08:45

no problem. So how do you will say reverse colloquially, your diet or your metabolism? Well, the simplest way to do that is just not being a calorie deficit. So this is the thing about metabolic adaptation is, and I was talking to, I think Jordan lips about this when he was on the show, it's a trade off we are making, knowing that we're making it so that we can lose the fat. So yeah, we're trading this metabolic adaptation. But in exchange, we get the fat loss we are going for. And you could go more aggressively, of course. And if you go more aggressively, the adaptation tend to be more severe. But also the fat loss happens faster, right? So it's a trade off. And the opposite of any of this is just not being a deficit. So if you can restore your energy balance back to your current maintenance, that is the best way to flip your body out of that mode, and recover and not be adapting anymore. And here's the thing, there's no evidence that this requires a slow calorie increase over days, weeks or months. And that's kind of the key that I'm going to get to today. And I touched on it at least once before in my an episode A while back about reverse dieting that I'm going to link in the show notes. And I'm touching on some of those again today if you hadn't heard that, or if you need a refresher, but I will come at this with some They're angles that you hadn't heard before. So the other key factor that people are worried about with reverse dieting is are not worried about what the but they why they think they need it is regaining body fat. So we've talked about hormones before, right? Your fat cells produce leptin is the satiety hormone keeps you full, and that stimulates your metabolism. And if you have more body fat, there's more of that. So while you're dieting, and it reduces that and reduces your metabolic rate, when you regain, not necessarily the weight you lost, but when you're stopping the loss of body fat, it also normalizes both. And again, what does that mean? That means going back to maintenance calories, and doing it as fast as possible, not necessarily the way that reverse dieting is going to have you do that. Okay, so stick with me, you see what I'm suggesting here, reverse dieting, which can be a gradual process is not necessary. If you know you can go straight to maintenance. So the claim that reverse dieting rebuilds your metabolism better than going to maintenance and it's going to cause all these other negatives, like we're just gonna avoid body fat overshooting is pure speculation. And it's driven by the fact that a lot of people have no clue what their maintenance calories are at the end of a diet. They've been guessing the whole way. They've been trying to reactively keep up with their changing metabolism by lowering calories, but they're not really precisely sure where that is. So if you're not precisely sure what your metabolism is, it's understandable, you would be afraid of overshooting that because you're like, Well, you know, I think I'm in a 500 calorie deficit. So I could just go up 500 calories. But what if I'm actually been metabolically adapted more than that lately, and I've only been in like a two or 300 calorie deficit. Well, now if I go up 500 calories, I'm actually in a surplus, and I'm gonna start gaining fat. That's where all of this stems from. Okay, so let's talk about fat regain a little bit more, right? The idea that reverse dieting prevents that, and I just touched on it a little bit. But there are some other things behind this that people talk about, like, okay, you've been restricting calories for such a long time. And you're leaner. And now your body is primed to store every extra calorie as fat if you increase too quickly. Now, first of all, even if you did go straight into a surplus, and you knew what surplus you were in, you're only going to get as much fat as the tissue that is not gained as muscle that makes sense. Meaning, if you go back into a surplus, and you're training hard to build muscle, like we should always be doing, you're gonna gain some of that as muscle and some of it is fat, just like you would if you were a maintenance for a while and then started that process. There's not a difference. It's not supported by research that you're all of a sudden going to just gain fat for some reason. And that's if you go into a surplus, we've already said that, if you simply return to maintenance, well, you're not even in a surplus. So you should gain zero extra fat, zero extra fat. Remember, you're going from a deficit to a net zero, right? No deficit, no surplus, your maintenance. But a lot of people think, oh, I need to reverse diet. So I don't jump so quickly that I go past that point. Well, the way we're going to do it, we're not going to go past that point, we're gonna go predictably and reliably and precisely to the point we need to be, which is maintenance calories. Okay. And again, Multiple studies have found no difference in body composition changes, based on the rate of post diet calorie increases. All that matters is your surplus or your deficit. That's it. All right, all the stuff about P ratios and going from a really lean state versus not so lean state. No, none of that is supported. Let's simplify it today. We don't need to get complicated or overthink it. Okay, so again, think about it this way with numbers. If you've been dieting on 2000 calories, and your maintenance is 2500. So you're in a 500 calorie deficit would stay in at 2100 for a week, and then 2200 the next week and so forth, make any difference in fat storage compared to going straight to 2500? Note would not. And what it would do negatively is prolong your deficit, which is what we're trying to get out of. And again, people are like, well, that's not what we mean. We mean, if you've been dieting in 2000, your maintenance is 2500. And you shoot up too fast to 2600. Well, I'm not saying that either. I'm saying we are going to go to our maintenance calories. Okay. So the calories are calories. This is one of those cases where calories are calories. There's no metabolic magic happening because you went up slowly, versus jumping straight up and dragging out that process keeps you in the deficit longer than necessary. And what does that do? Well, that risks more muscle loss and hormone disruption and just not feeling great and who wants to be in a diet for longer than you intended? Right now, to be clear, you will definitely I was gonna say likely in my notes, but then I said, you will definitely gain a few pounds of weight when you increase your calories from the diet, back to maintenance, but that's all water and glycogen is all it is. Because think about it. You're you're increasing your intake of food. You're gonna have more Put in your gut, you're going to be drawing in more water and you're gonna have more carbs. Most likely, assuming you're eating a balanced approach, your carbs might go up from say, you know, 100 grams to 300 grams or something like that. And so the first few weeks of maintenance are this, not just psychological, but physiological balancing acts because your body is adjusting to the new intake. But that has nothing to do with extra fat regain, or anything else that people are trying to avoid with reverse dieting. So if you are again, if you're at your true maintenance calories, you are not going to get any runaway fat gain. The real problem is people miscalculate your maintenance intake, or they don't even know it, and then they accidentally overshoot into a surplus. That's a completely separate issue. Right? That's a completely separate issue. And we need to acknowledge that. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of Whitson weights. I started with some weights to help ambitious individuals in their 30s 40s and beyond, who want to build muscle lose fat and finally look like they lift. I noticed that when people transform their physique, they not only look and feel better, but they also experienced incredible changes in their health, confidence and overall quality of life. If you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same thing to build your ultimate physique and unlock your full potential. Whether you're just starting out or looking to take your progress to the next level. That's why I created wits and weights physique University, a semi private group coaching experience designed to help you achieve your best physique ever, with a personalized done for you nutrition plan, custom designed courses, new workout programs each month, live coaching calls, and a supportive community, you'll have access to everything you need to succeed. If you're ready to shatter your plateaus and transform your body and life, head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in the show notes to enroll today. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique. I can't wait to welcome you to the community and help you become the strongest leanest and healthiest version of yourself. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 17:06

So the last thing I want to address before we get into like the how of doing all this is the claim that reverse dieting makes future fat loss phases easier. By increasing your starting metabolic rate. This is the one that has to die. Now I know a lot of people listening, they're like, Well, no, that's not I understand that that's not true. And when I use reverse dieting, that's not the reason I use it. Okay, fine, you're off the hook. But a lot of people still believe this, and they use it in their marketing. And even if this were true, it would be a pretty weak reason to endure the extra time and the extra effort. And more importantly, there's, there's just no mechanistic or clinical evidence for the idea. It's just not true. So it doesn't matter. I guess that's what I'm gonna say. Either way, again, again, even if it were true, I wouldn't use reverse dieting, I would actually take you right to your maintenance calories, and then try to push it up. further than that. Now what is true is people that have been dieting for a long time, potentially are in a suppressed metabolic state. And if they then increase their calories, their body will relax and upregulate back to their normal higher level of maintenance calories, and eventually top out at where they're fully recovered state is, and now they're eating more calories to maintain their weight. But that doesn't mean you can now eat more calories to lose the same amount of weight, your body is going to adapt right back. And the deficit, the calories required to be in a deficit are going to be the same for you. Okay, you're just starting from a less adapted state. Okay, so hope I'm not confusing you here. But the opposite is actually true in the research that people who have a predisposition for weight gain, and yo yo dieting actually tend to have higher baseline metabolic rates on average, pre diet, and it doesn't protect them from regain. Right. And this could simply be that they're heavier, right? They're heavier. And so when you're heavier, you have a higher metabolic rate. But anyway, that was an interesting thing I found I wish I had the study to cite, but it doesn't matter, we're gonna move on because that's really not relevant. And the other thing is that if even if, hypothetically reverse dieting increased your metabolic rate in some in some way that shifted it up, again, those adaptations would just dissipate as soon as you started the next cut. But it doesn't do that. Right. adaptive thermogenesis metabolic adaptation, it happens, can't do anything about it. It starts quickly in a matter of days or weeks at most, but usually days with a deficit. You can't you know, bank extra metabolic output from a previous bulk or maintenance phase, or anything like that. We've seen as we know this, because bodybuilders can't do it. You know, if they did, they would all be cutting on 4000 calories, and it doesn't happen. Alright, so reverse dieting is overhyped. There's a lot of other illusions of reverse dieting that I talked about in the last episode I did on this, which again, I think was called Why reverse dieting doesn't work like you think and what to do instead. So check that out because I think I referenced Eric Trexler ers article as well talking about all the hype that is just what he calls illusions. So, reverse dieting is not necessary to prevent fat regain, it is not going to boost your metabolism. It is also not necessary to recover after a diet. And it is not necessary to get your maintenance from any other point, even if you haven't been dieting just to find your maintenance. So what should you do instead of reverse dieting? That's the question. And the boring but effective answer is increase to your current maintenance calories. So if you've just had a fat loss phase, what are you going to do? If your deficit right now this moment today is 500 calories, you're gonna increase 500 calories tomorrow, and then stay there for about a week and see how your metabolism changes and then follow it upward as it recovers. That's it. And now you avoid the needless additional dieting of reverse dieting. So here's the funny thing, the word reverse dieting. So as the word dieting in it, so remember that, when you reverse dieting, you're still dieting, you're still in a deficit. Now maybe they intended dieting as in your eating, eating food, but I'm gonna go ahead and describe the negative version of that word to the word it. So if you avoid that extra dieting, you'll recover faster, both physiologically and psychologically. Now, there is a term for this called a recovery diet. But it's literally one day, it's one day, it's today I was in fat loss and a 500 calorie deficit. Tomorrow, I'm going back to my maintenance done diets over Boom. Alright, now that can feel scary to bump calories after you've been tracking on your diet, and you have been tracking, right because you're only going to know you're only going to know your maintenance. If you've been tracking your food, your weight over time. And you use an evidence based dynamic way of calculating this over time, you're gonna see how your weight trends, you're gonna see how much food you're eating, and that's going to tell your metabolism. Now, this is why again, I use macro factor, it's the only app on the market food logging app that does this for you. Why wouldn't you just use the best tool for the job, you know, use the hammer for the nail, use the barbell for heavy squats, and use macro factor to get an accurate starting point based on your individual data and your metabolism. If you had been using it during fat loss, you know exactly how your metabolism has gone up or down, probably mostly down during the fat loss phase. And then as soon as you're done with your diet, that literally the next day, you can set it to maintain and jump right to your maintenance calories. And then just continue to, in my opinion, the way I coach clients and in Western ways physique University, we talk about overshooting the maintenance, just a tiny bit, you know, by like 50 calories, because we know your maintenance calories are actually gonna go up. And let's get ahead of it. Right, let's just get ahead of it. Again, all it's going to happen is you're going to gain a few pounds of water weight, but you're not going to gain any fat and you're going to recover really quickly. Which means what does that mean? better sleep, better energy, better lifts, you know, pushing more in the gym, just I mean, the list goes on and on, your hormones get better, and so on. And again, if your weight starts to creep, you know, down after the initial water fluctuations, then that's an indication that you've actually started to fall behind, right, like we're trying to keep up with the increasing metabolism when we're done with the diet. And that's why I like to go over a little more. So you don't accidentally keep dieting. And the funny thing is reverse dieting is like intentionally continuing to date. So you don't need that. And it is a waste of time. And it is counterproductive, it is negative, there is zero reason for it whatsoever, given the claims people make for why you should use it. Alright, so maintenance calories is about getting back to homeostasis, finding the intake that keeps you at this stable, comfortable bodyweight maintaining results, with good energy, good performance, good biofeedback, and it's not fixed. Just remember that it's not fixed, it's going to fluctuate, and hopefully it's going to generally trend upward when you're done with your dieting phase, as you get back to maintenance. So the approach of just a recovery diet going straight back to maintenance in one day. This also contributes to, in my opinion, your relationship with food, be honest, like the whole flexible approach that we take part of the calorie deficit and the fat loss phases, we get it over and done with as quickly as we can, because we don't want to be in that state forever. And so by not reverse dieting, we are getting out of that state quickly. Now you get to, you know, a little bit more calories, more flexibility with your meals and you that you even already had and is not, you know, you're not continuing to restrict in some way where it's not necessary. And you're not even having to overanalyze thing. Like, I think reverse dieting requires too much work too much thinking because you're just, you're saying, well, here's my calories, and then eventually I need to get back up to maintenance, but I'm going to do it in this stair step sort of way. And I'm not quite going to know that I'm at my maintenance until I maybe overshoot a little bit and the weight starts ticking up. It's like, man, it's just too much too reactive to miscalculation, like why do all that just jump to maintenance, and you have to know your maintenance. So that's my opinion on it. Okay. Now, to be fair are, there are a few specific scenarios where slowly increasing calories after a diet can be helpful, or slowly increasing calories because you've never done this before. And you're tracking for the very first time. And, you know, if you come to me and I say, Well, I think you're starting metabolism, maybe in the ballpark of, you know, 2600, what are you eating now? Oh, you're eating 1500? Oh, yeah, let's just jump 900 calories tomorrow. I'm not going to do that as a coach. Right? And I wouldn't expect that, that you to try that yourself either. Because we want to take it slow and steady and get there in a reasonable timeframe. Now, does that defy everything? I just said, No, because this is not for physiological reasons. This is for practical and logistical reasons. And for those of you listening, who said, Well, that's exactly why I tell people to reverse diet because it's practical. Okay, I can give you a point there. However, if you know your maintenance calories, you're still one level beyond reverse dieting in that case, because rather than it being a reverse diet, it's simply a practical jump to get your maintenance as quickly as you can, for that person,

Philip Pape 26:02

meaning, if you know, you need to jump 900 calories, you could do it overnight, you could do it the next day, you really could. But if you tactically, if you find that a struggle, it's okay not to it's okay to jump by 300 calories a day for three days to get there. But we're not gonna waste more time than we need to. The other reason you would reverse diet is if you have no idea what your maintenance intake actually is. So that kind of goes back to the premise of this whole episode. That ignorance of your numbers is probably the one of the main reasons I see most coaching. Most coaches suggest reverse dieting, it makes their job easier, that's for sure. Because they're not telling you to jump to some arbitrary number. And then you gain all this weight, and then you yell at them for not being a good coach. But they're not the best coach, if they don't use the best tools to help you understand what your true maintenance is, and do it precisely in time efficiently. And you don't have to use macro factor for that you can do this in a spreadsheet, like as a coach, if macro factors stopped existing tomorrow, I could do a reasonable facsimile of that for a client, and still use a recovery diet instead of reverse diet, you still can take your weight over time, the calorie intake, you can apply kind of some simple math, some smoothing, this is where my engineering brain and my software brain come in to play. And you can still do a reasonable facsimile of that, alright. But if you don't know your maintenance, and you don't want to go through all that, and you just want to react and you want to guess, go for it, reverse dieting will eventually get you there. But with all the negatives along with the ride that we've talked about today. Now, let's say that you weren't tracking at all that's another reason somebody wouldn't know their maintenance. Let's say you're not even working with a coach and you just like, ate quote, unquote, clean or you did keto or carnivore, or you cut carbs or whatever, however you did your diet, or you just like, arbitrarily watched your calories and then saw how it affected weight. In those cases, it's true that jumping straight to some random maintenance number that you don't even know could lead to overshooting because you're not really even tracking to begin with. So in that case, some conservative increases might help you figure out your maintenance range once your weight stabilizes. So I get it. And that could be a great approach somebody's taking who's eating intuitively, right. But someone who's eating intuitively who's trapped for a long time, will probably have a good idea what it feels like also to get back to maintenance, and know that based on the weight they've been losing, they've been in a certain deficit recently. And they can still make a more educated guess, than necessarily having to reverse diet. Now, the other thing is when reverse dieting can be defined in different ways. For some people, it's like two or 300 extra calories this week, and then next week in the next week. For others, it's much slower, like 50 calories. I mean, either way, it's still reverse dieting, it's like stepping stone to your maintenance. So it's nothing magic. It's like not a magic metabolic restoration protocol. It's just guessing your way there. That's really all it is. The only other situation I can think of is going to be physique competitors, and other extreme dieters, let's say lifestyle dieters. And if you've been in a super aggressive deficit, and you've got extremely lean, you're very adapted both your metabolism and hunger signals have been, you know, whacked out, they're pretty suppressed. And you just literally may not feel comfortable eating a maintenance right away. Like even though you know, you can and you know how to do it, and you've done it before and you're not worried about the number of calories, simply your digestive system and like everything going on with you, it's just off. And to jump that much. Like let's say you're in 1000 calorie deficit, you could jump 1000 calories overnight, may just not be comfortable. And that's another reason to take it slowly. But you still know where you want to be and you want to get there as quickly as possible. So and by that, I mean like take a week, at most, maybe two, but not weeks and weeks and weeks. Okay, that can help with your digestion with your appetite regulation. But the goal again is still to ramp up to your actual recovery. Take your maintenance calories as efficiently as you can tolerate. And other than that it's a temporary psychological tool, it's not actually a metabolic necessity. So for everyone else look, just get macro factor already, you can try it for free with my code, Whitson weights all one word, and stop guessing, I'll put a link in the show notes like I used to do when I mentioned it in the show. And then you'll never ever need to reverse diet ever again, once you've got that approach down, going straight to maintenance calories. So to recap, today's episode, reverse dieting is the epitome of one of those like fitness industry myths that has to die. And it's one of those that really persist even among really great coaches. And a lot of them, I get that they are not necessarily using reverse dieting, the full on way that some people use it. And in some cases, maybe they're not even using reverse dieting, and they're just calling it that and I get it, then we get into semantics and so on which I don't know when this episode is coming out. But Sue bush and I when she was on the show, or maybe I was on her show, I don't remember which one. But we got into a discussion about needing to be careful with our words in this industry. And why podcasting as a medium is a good place to explain all this because then you can define what you mean, which hopefully I've been doing today. And if you did not listen to the episode, of course, you didn't even get to what I'm saying here. And you just give me a bunch of hate comments on YouTube. Because you think reverse dieting is the bee's knees. That just proves my point. So here's the thing you want to trust, the data driven approach that actually measures the things you care about. And one of the things we care about during dieting is knowing your maintenance calories. That's really, really important while we're dieting. So we can be proactive, we can avoid plateaus, and we can recover straight to maintenance. And that's important for your health. That's important for your metabolic health, your performance, your life balance, your psychology, your mental state. That's why this is important. It's not just, it's not just splitting hairs. And if you have the right tools, and then you have the right mindset, then what are you going to do, you're going to maintain that hard earned physique without the smoke and mirrors of reverse dieting. Okay, so if you want to learn more about this, I've got lots of episodes about these various topics, but I do have the other one that I will link in the show notes. And then I'm trying to think if there's anything else I wanted to mention about this other than No, I think that's it. So okay, that's it about reverse dieting and why it's a complete waste of time. The answer is no your maintenance calories, recovery maintenance calories as quickly as possible, you'll feel great. You'll get back to be in maintenance, maintaining your physique or even going into a building phase without all the wasting time. Alright, in our next episode 169 q&a with Jeff Hain menopause weight loss bulking without getting fat cutting on low sleep. I'm teaming up with Jeff Hain of the mind muscle connection podcast for a special co hosted q&a, where we are going to share our thoughts on six different questions three from his community, three for mine on rest periods for muscle growth, managing your diet, unlimited sleep, what to do if you're gaining too much weight in a book, how to transition your training from bulk to a cut, menopause and weight loss resistance for women over 50 and how to prep ahead of time for an inevitable holiday feast Steen. Make sure again to hit follow hit follow hit follow right now in your podcast app so that you are notified when that episode comes out and support the show. And as always, I want you to stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on The Whitson weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up there with our weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Philip Pape 4/26/24 Philip Pape 4/26/24

Ep 167: Optimize Your Thyroid for Hormone Health, Metabolism, and Fat Loss with Haley Fountain

Are you struggling with weight due to thyroid issues? Confused about the role of minerals in thyroid function? Do you need a roadmap for exercise and nutrition with a thyroid condition?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes Haley Fountain, a women's health coach who balances modern nutrition with ancient wisdom and behavioral science. Haley is certified as an Integrative Nutrition Health Coach and specializes in Hormonal Health. She's also a yoga instructor, model, and actress.

In this episode, you will learn about the world of thyroid health. This complex issue impacts your weight, metabolism, sleep, and mental health. Haley will guide us through managing weight with a thyroid condition, the role of minerals in thyroid function, and the importance of exercise and nutrition. They'll also explore how the mind-body connection and sleep contribute to thyroid health.

Haley is dedicated to empowering women to thrive. She offers personalized coaching, organizes events, and hosts retreats to create a supportive environment for women to connect with their health and well-being. Her approach is to provide accessible and practical information, regardless of where individuals are on their health journey. Whether someone is dealing with thyroid issues or simply seeking to expand their knowledge, Haley's expertise promises to be valuable.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:11 The importance of the thyroid and its function
4:26 The conditions associated with the thyroid
6:05 Hormones vs. lifestyle
8:22 The role of the thyroid in metabolism and weight management
12:27 How do you approach meal spacing and diet
18:36 The link between minerals, supplementation, diet, and thyroid health
27:33 How to test for mineral deficiency
33:04 Exercise for thyroid health
35:45 The impact of the third leg of movement
37:29 Specific foods that are helpful for the thyroid
41:22 The value of sleep, naps, and yoga
45:22 What Hely wished Philip had asked
48:19 Where to learn more about Haley
48:47 Outro

Episode resources:

Episode summary:

Thyroid health is a topic that is often shrouded in mystery, yet it is a critical piece of the puzzle when it comes to our overall well-being and hormonal balance. In this episode, women's health coach Haley Fountain provided a comprehensive look at how to master thyroid health for optimal hormonal harmony. The thyroid gland, a small butterfly-shaped organ located in the neck, plays a pivotal role in regulating numerous bodily functions, including energy levels, metabolism, heart rate, and muscle building. However, the signs of thyroid dysfunction can be subtle and are often mistaken for other conditions, such as Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS) or even stress.

One of the first points Haley Fountain touched on was the importance of recognizing symptoms like fatigue, hair loss, and gut problems as potential indicators of thyroid imbalance. She emphasized that these symptoms should not be considered normal and that addressing them is crucial for maintaining health. Haley also discussed how over-exercising could have detrimental effects on hormone levels, particularly thyroid hormones, and consequently on weight loss efforts. This insight is particularly relevant for individuals who are frustrated with their lack of progress despite rigorous exercise routines.

In addition to exercise, the discussion turned towards the significance of diet and lifestyle in managing thyroid-related health challenges. Conditions like hypothyroidism, often underdiagnosed, can have a profound impact on one's life. Haley Fountain highlighted the nuanced interplay between genetics and lifestyle in our hormonal ecosystem, indicating that while genetics do play a role, diet and lifestyle are equally, if not more, significant contributors to thyroid health.

The episode delved into the importance of blood sugar stability, which is intrinsically linked to weight management and thyroid function. Strategies for achieving blood sugar balance were discussed, such as ensuring adequate protein intake, meal spacing, and even the use of glucose monitors for tracking. The conversation tackled intermittent fasting and its effects on women with hormonal imbalances, recommending a tailored approach to eating windows and meal frequency. Additionally, the benefits of movement, such as walking post-meal, were highlighted to aid blood sugar regulation.

Another focal point was the importance of minerals in thyroid health. Haley shared her insights on how superfoods like spirulina and sea vegetables can contribute to our nutritional intake and support thyroid function. She underscored the need for minerals like selenium and zinc, which are vital in converting thyroid hormones from inactive to active forms, and suggested natural sources like Brazil nuts and organ meats to supplement these minerals. The balance between minerals like zinc and copper was also discussed, emphasizing the need for maintaining appropriate levels when supplementing with nutrients.

Throughout the episode, the value of low-impact movement for weight management and hormonal balance was reiterated. Over-exercising can lead to excess production of stress hormones, negatively affecting thyroid health. Instead, activities such as yoga, walking, and resistance training were advocated. Nutritionally, the importance of incorporating specific foods into one's diet, such as sea vegetables and berries, was examined, noting their rich iodine content and other beneficial minerals. The episode concluded by underscoring the critical importance of sleep for overall health and thyroid function, suggesting consistent sleep schedules and addressing the potential impacts of napping.

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Transcript

Haley Fountain 00:00

As I mentioned before, if you are over exercising, that you are pumping out way too much adrenaline and cortisol in your body which is going to negatively impact all of your hormones, specifically your thyroid hormones, and cause all sorts of imbalances so it actually can stunt your weight loss goals.

Philip Pape 00:18

Haley Fountain 02:06

Thank you, Philip.

Philip Pape 02:07

I'm really excited to be here. And today we're talking about thyroid health. So the listeners love to just jump into the topic. But I definitely want to have some context, you know, from your experience in your background as we get into it. So the first question is really what's so important about this endocrine gland and the hormones it's it secretes for health in general women's health, specifically, and what is your background in that area?

Haley Fountain 02:29

Yeah, so for the thyroid, for anyone who doesn't know it's an endocrine gland, as you said, it's a butterfly shaped gland that's actually right here. So we're like, underneath where like, the middle of your throat and your like collarbones are. And it's a very important part of our endocrine system that regulates, you can honestly call it the master regulator, like it regulates everything from your energy to your weight, even like your heart rate, and so many other things in the body. So it's a very, very important part of our entire ecosystem in our bodies. And quite often, a lot of health issues are actually undercover thyroid issues. So you know, just to give you a quick glimpse of issues that could be related to your thyroid, if you have PMS symptoms, if you have low energy or fatigue, especially fatigue in the morning, brittle nails, brittle hair, hair loss, even memory and focus issues, these are actually things that people consider to be quite normal or just it just something they have to deal with. But these could be related to your thyroid gut issues can also be related to thyroid. So those are just a few of the things low libido, low sperm count in men. Really, almost everything can be linked to that diary. But those are just a few of like, the common symptoms that we in sort of modern society have deemed as normal, but are actually things that are linked to our thyroid.

Philip Pape 03:56

Yeah, that's amazing that it has it's tied to so much. And I understand, you know, hormones are complicated. And there's multiple glands that secrete different things that actually impact other hormones like the, I guess the pituitary gland probably, you know, releases the stimulating hormones that we're all familiar with, like T three and T four. And we often talk about thyroid, just to simplify it with our metabolic rate, right as a metabolic regulator to and even protein synthesis. So a lot of my listeners were in the building muscle and your thyroid can affect that, I believe, so. Pretty cool. It's good to know that so what are the conditions associated with the thyroid that we can just list out so people are aware or people that not just like hypothyroidism, but are there other conditions like Hashimotos and such that are linked to it?

Haley Fountain 04:38

Yeah. So again, I think the research is still emerging on these but definitely hypothyroidism which is like low thyroid essentially or hyper hyperthyroid which is high thyroid, which is a lot less common. Hypothyroidism is becoming much more prevalent today. And actually, I think there's the statistics I saw were about there's 50% of the people that have it are walking You're on and don't even know it, which is pretty crazy. Hashimotos Of course, autoimmune disorder, there's actually a lot of like fertility and reproductive issues that are being tied to thyroid issues as well. Those are probably the ones that come to the top of my head. And, you know, I work specifically with women. So a lot of women were linking PCOS, is quite often being misdiagnosed. And we're finding that it's actually hypothyroidism, excuse me, instead of PCOS, which is I find very fascinating, and the research is still emerging there as well. But there's a lot of misdiagnosis and particularly in because women are more affected by thyroid issues than men, statistically speaking. So a lot of female reproductive issues such as PCOS, even women who are having it's not necessarily a diagnosis, but women that are having menopausal issues and like are having a really tough time with menopause they're finding is actually related to thyroid health. So

Philip Pape 06:00

if we want to get into the lifestyle side of managing of thyroid condition in the symptoms, before we do that, one of the big questions a lot of women seem to always have and I do as well, chicken and egg like, which comes first? Is it hormone conditions that we have that are causing all the problems? Or is it a lifestyle that causes the hormone issues that causes the problems? Generally, you know, obviously, just generalizing it? That's

Haley Fountain 06:23

so hard to answer. It's a really good question. It really it is specific on the individual, it really depends. I would say if I if I had to say for the majority of people, I would say it is lifestyle, nutrition or causing the imbalances for the majority, but that's not for everyone. Unfortunately, like if a mother is pregnant and has hypo or hyperthyroidism, any any issues with a thyroid, those things can not necessarily the the thyroid condition can be passed on in itself, but it causes imbalance in the fetus, which then if those aren't addressed, when the child is young, the child will also grow up to have thyroid issues, but it's not like it's something like specifically that is being passed on. It's more like it causes an imbalance which then because of lifestyle, nutrition, the modern American diet and lifestyle, at least that's what the research is showing. So, again, it is specific on the individual there are some people who just genetics or whatever it is, unfortunately have a lower thyroid or higher but generally speaking for most people, it is the even if you are a predisposition to have a you know, low thyroid or high thyroid, you it will be exacerbated through diet and lifestyle. So I guess Yeah, as I'm saying this out loud. I'm like diet, lifestyle and nutrition really, for nearly everyone.

Philip Pape 07:40

Which, which is empowering, right, it's empowering, because it's something we can have control over. And at the same time you leave open the door for not discounting, real issues. And we just we did an episode about gaslighting against women in healthcare recently. And we talked about someone who had hypothyroidism at like the age of eight, and doctors were, you know, basically ignoring it, despite gaining massive weight compared to the average, despite her lifestyle being the same as her sibling. So it's like, you know, I want people to know that the support can be there. And we're going to talk today a little bit about that on the medical side. But for the most part, I want to focus on the lifestyle side, because at least if you could dial that in, you can rule things out and get a clearer picture of what might be going on. Yeah, so speaking of that, the first thing that comes to mind for I'm guessing for most women is like the weight issues or the weight resistance, or it's hard to lose, or et cetera, with a thyroid condition. Let's talk about the role of thyroid metabolism and weight management, and then what we can do about it. Yeah,

Haley Fountain 08:40

for sure. So this is something I have a lot of clients that deal with this. And I really, really empathize with them. And I know it's such a struggle, because not only having like a health condition, but the mental toll of getting some sort of diagnosis or being told you have, you know, low thyroid height, you even you know, if it's weight gain, it's going to be low thyroid, if that coupled with like trying to lose weight and dealing with the body image issues of that is really hard, and it's becoming more and more prevalent. So I really feel for the women that are dealing with this. So yeah, our thyroid is where do I begin? So our thyroid is going to impact like we talked about earlier, every element of our metabolism of our gut health, the way that our body actually absorbs food and converted into energy, right? So a big thing that I find for women, one when they have gained weight, and we have identified it as a thyroid issue, the number one thing you have to focus on his blood sugar balance. And that's, I would say that's number one key because that is how we avoid other issues because a lot of the women I work with a lot of women that have PCOS. And as I mentioned, for a lot of them, there's some sort of lingering thyroid issue that has maybe been identified but not addressed directly and the you know, when we don't get it in We don't keep our blood sugar balanced, we will that can lead to insulin resistance. It causes crazy mood swings and energy issues with our energy, it impacts our ability to fall asleep, and to wake up at normal time. So that's the first thing. So a couple of like to get really granular with a blood sugar balance couple of things that you can do, obviously, making sure you're getting enough protein. Most women are not getting enough protein in their diet. And it depends on how active you are in a lot of things I generally tell most women try to get at least 30 grams per meal 30 Plus, that's a good start, if you don't know a whole lot about nutrition, or I've never really tracked what you eat. And then the second thing is making sure you're eating enough. So a lot of women are under eating. And that's whenever you have when you've gained weight naturally for most people, unless you're like very educated a nutrition and fitness, your natural inclination is to eat less right to cut back on food, that calorie caloric restriction. But the problem with that is that can actually exacerbate it as well and make the issues worse and your body goes into starvation mode. And so we don't want to do that. You want to make sure you're getting enough, you know, macronutrients getting enough protein enough carbohydrates enough, you know, fats and fiber is also really important for balancing the blood sugar. So those are, you know, a couple of things. And another thing I work with my clients on is actually playing with how you space out your meals. So, a couple of things there, a lot of people will like for example, eat dinner and then have a snack like an hour later. I always tell my clients, you know, just eat more at mealtime. If you feel like you're hungry an hour or two after mealtime, you need to eat more when at mealtime. And the reason for that is a couple of things, it helps with a blood sugar spike, because if you're eating too often, then your your body needs to go in a little bit of a dip in the blood sugar a little lower to actually help regulate. So if you're constantly just climbing the blood sugar ladder, that's gonna cause issues as well. So that's one of the biggest thing. So generally speaking, it's different for everyone spacing your meals out three to five hours is what I found is a sweet spot, I usually get my clients to wear glucose monitors to help them kind of see that if that's something they struggle with. So I'm getting really granular there. But that's number one is the the blood sugar balance with the weight management and a thyroid condition.

Philip Pape 12:11

Yeah, let's just I love granular and I think my listeners do too weak. You hit on so many points we love to address and I know protein and calories are like the first thing that working with women, it's like, oh, I can't eat that much, or I can't get that much protein. And it's okay, let's let's work on it. We know that there's an opportunity there. And the fiber everything. I like the meal spacing piece of it, which How do you address when you're asking to eat a lot more calories, and they feel full? And that's part of the reason they want to eat more frequently. You just space it out throughout the day. Like let's let's avoid these long fasting windows. But let's also speak have a long feeding window. Is that the approach you take?

Haley Fountain 12:45

Yeah, I like that you brought that up too. Because that's another thing is, you know, intermittent fasting is very popular. And for good reason. It has been found to help with you know, burning fat. And even a lot of people use it for like workflows and stuff. The problem with it for women that have any and I speak about women because that's who I work with directly, but this can impact everyone. I find that intermittent fasting works really well for men and not so well for women, especially women that have like hormonal issues. A lot of women that have thyroid issues are skipping breakfast, and then that spike in their blood sugar, which is spiking their cortisol and you know, cortisol kills your thyroid and every other hormone in your body, which is cortisol is a stress hormone for anyone listening, but I'm sure people already know that. And so making you eat it actually eating breakfast in the morning and just making that fasting window a little, a little smaller, I still think it's good to space out, you know about try to have at least 12 hours between dinner and breakfast the next day, I think that's you know, at a minimum 12 to 14 hours, you can still get you know, I tell my clients a really good schedule if you work like a normal kind of or a common corporate job schedule is have breakfast at like eight or nine have lunch at 12 have like a second snack but like heavier than a snack more like meal at three ish and then have dinner at seven. And you still have more than 12 hours of a fasting window. So four meals a day essentially, if you're getting you know if you just really can't eat any more at mealtime, and that typically works well. So if three meals a day if you're getting too full, then just space it out to four with at least three hours in between. You gotta be

Philip Pape 14:13

practical about it for sure. Some of us work on it out early in the morning. So then it just you just want to shift it it's all okay so there's also movement that comes to mind with blood sugar. I know I've talked about like walking after you eat and things like that. I'd like you to address that and then the hot button carbs. I don't know fully what your background or stance is on that but I won't reveal mine if you're not aware of it. So go ahead. Yeah,

Haley Fountain 14:32

sure. So movement Yeah, movement and you know, we can dive into exercise a little bit but yeah, either going for a walk after you exercise or actually going for a walk after you eat, that postprandial walk is so important to help lower your blood sugar and also I think we one thing about walking that we forget is not only is it a form of exercise, but it is a mental break. It is a form of stress reduction that we have to we have to do if you think about our ancestors, they walked everywhere. Some of us never actually touched the ground, we never touched the earth like walking is so grounding. It's great for us mentally physically, like every, every element of our body needs walking. So walking is really good with thyroid conditions. I often see again, because many men and women who have low thyroid will want to exercise a lot to over exercise that can actually make your symptoms worse as well. So you want to go for low impact exercise and things like yoga, and I'm a big yoga Pilates, you know, bar person, I really promote that and like a lot of walking and maybe, you know, a couple sessions of aerobic exercise per week, but a lot of the people who have thyroid issues are doing really intense, high intensity workouts like they're going to Orangetheory fitness No, no, like nothing wrong with Orangetheory. It's great, but like, five days a week, that's too much when you have a hormone, any sort of hormonal imbalance, like that's way too much your body needs rest, and you need to keep your nervous system relaxed. So that's another thing. But yeah, definitely the movement after mealtime is really important to help digestion and help balance your blood sugar. And then carbohydrates. Yes, I'm pro carb, I eat a lot of carbs like I am. I am only I'm super lean. And you can't see me right now. But like, I'm super lean, and I eat a lot of carbs. Like whenever people see what I eat, they're like what and you know, it kind of goes with the exercise and the movement. One really good way you can keep your weight and your body composition healthy is to build muscle while your body needs fuel in order to do that. Obviously, you know, protein is like the king when it comes to muscle building. But we need carbohydrates to for energy. So yeah, making sure you're getting an adequate amount of carbs. I do not I highly discourage my clients from doing a low carbohydrate diet. I have a lot of clients that come to me that have done I want to say keto, but it's not even it's like their version of keto. This is really like a super low carb diet. It's not even true keto we're like they're like checking. Right? Yeah, exactly like are they're like checking to see if their body like doing the testing to make sure their body is in ketosis. Like it's not true keto, it's just low carb, like, let's just call it what it is. It's like the Atkins diet or whatever, one of those from the 90s. And number one is not sustainable. So I don't recommend anything that's not sustainable. Because you that puts you on that yo yo train, that's going to impact your blood sugar as well. If you go from no carbs, and eating a ton of carbs, your body's gonna be like what the heck is going on in your blood sugar is gonna shoot the roof, which is going to put you on an energy roller coaster, it's going to actually make your weight fluctuate a lot more. So yeah, definitely pro carbs, going for complex carbs. And again, having them as part of a, a package in a meal. So never eating carbs alone, you always have them with protein fats, and really increasing your fiber content to help with that, to offset those carbohydrates really important, which goes back to the basics of all the things that you know, you were like you and I talk about all the time is

Philip Pape 17:46

beautiful. Yeah, with the carbs. I mean, it's not like we're just eating pizza and doughnuts, right? Like, it's like, people, people think of carbs as processed carbs. And what you're talking about is diversity and what works for you and having it spaced out and combine it with your other macros, keeping things balanced. I mean, it's all super practical. You're like, the female version of me was so much of the stuff. That's cool. We're

Haley Fountain 18:09

gonna keep it practical and approachable. And yeah, like and even I do think there is value in and now we can get into nutrition and a little bit, but there's value in, you know, elimination diets or, you know, cutting things out for a short amount of time to see how your body responds. But you never want to introduce something that's not sustainable, because it's like one step forward and two steps back,

Philip Pape 18:27

for sure. So part of diet is micronutrients, right? Because I know we want to talk about the minerals as well. I was curious about this topic. What's the link between minerals in thyroid health? What are we deficient in? Like, what are the most important ones, you know, selenium, etc. And then, I guess we want to talk about, you know, the role of diet and supplementation and all of that. Yeah, for

Haley Fountain 18:47

sure. I'm glad you asked that. So yeah, for specifically when it comes to the thyroid, so most people these days are mineral deficient and don't even know it, because it's not something that we test for. There's not a lot of great tests out there for it either. Unfortunately, or the ones that are out there are very expensive as well. So a couple of the things that come to mind. So iodine is one that's really important, typically found in like seafood and seaweed and things like that. So like kelp, Nori, anyone that has a thyroid condition, you know, introducing sea vegetables into your diet can be really helpful. You can supplement iodine. But the problem is, a lot of times the supplements have a lot like a really high potency dose, which can be useful in some cases, but I would never recommend, actually, actually, I shouldn't say I'm not a doctor. So anyone listening to this, anything I offer is just, it's just a suggestion. This is not medical advice. So please, you know what I tell my clients that too. I'm like, I'm a general contractor. I'm going to give you guidance, but you should always talk to your doctor before so you want to make that distinction. But yeah, so iodine, a lot of the supplements out there have a very large amount of iodine in them which for some people can be too much. So if you're going to supplement iodine, you want to think about working with a functional medicine practitioner or whomever your healthcare practitioner is, but for most people introducing see vegetable was like nori kelp, you can buy like a shaker type of deal that has, like nori or California sea vegetables in it that you can just sprinkle on top of your food kind of tastes like salt.

Philip Pape 20:09

Oh, nice. Nice. Well, actually, speaking of salt, I mean, there is iodized salt. Does that count? No, let's,

Haley Fountain 20:16

I mean, I guess yeah, technically, but no, I mean, that's for a whole other host of reasons. But that type of the iodized salt is like, stripped of everything, and it's literally just sodium and iodine. Like we don't we don't wanna go down that road. Yeah. So you want to try to get in like the most natural form. And I'm, you know, I'm a holistic health coach. So I always recommend, not against supplements at all, but I always recommend if you can get it from your food first, that's always the best option, right? Like I nothing wrong with supplementing if your levels aren't normal, but if you're just eating a crap diet, and then you're just taking all these supplements, that's not you know, which I know you. I'm sure you're the same way.

Philip Pape 20:49

Mike, before we continue, what about what about Blue? Like blue green algae? What how does that sold as you know what, I'm just spirulina? What about that?

Haley Fountain 20:58

Yeah, I don't think spirulina has iodine in it. But what I do like about spirulina is that it's like 40%, protein by weight or something like that. That's right. Yeah. So it's, it is a superfood, and something you could certainly include in your diet, especially like you add it to smoothies, or I'm big smoothie girl or like protein smoothies. So because it's an easy way to just keep your calories up and get extra protein. So yeah, you can add into your smoothies, but I don't believe spirulina has iodine. I could be wrong, though. I don't believe it has iodine in it.

Philip Pape 21:27

Yeah, it was wondering because I take it too. But the reason I take it as a very weird reason that most people aren't aware of it seems to be a natural anti histamine. So it prevents, like I used to have seasonal allergies every single year. And I started consuming spirulina and I haven't been on any, like Benadryl or anything like that or Claritin at all, because I used to have to take some of that stuff. Anyway, just fun fact. Yeah,

Haley Fountain 21:50

well, actually, because I haven't I used to have horrible allergies, that I haven't had allergies in years. And I take Spirulina everyday too. I wonder. I never I think I mean, yeah. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So see vegetables. That's what you know, I tell everyone, do you have thyroid issues or even I mean, even if you don't have thyroid issues, the vegetables are really good. They're abundant, they're plentiful. They're really low impact on our environment, if that's something that's important to you, which is should be for everybody. You know, it's really just so abundant. They're cheap. So vitamin D, and iodine really rich on those things. So iodine is number one. Number two, selenium and zinc. These are two things that many people are deficient in and aren't aware of no selenium and zinc are important because they help your body create the enzyme that converts T four, which is the inactive form of your thyroid hormone to T three, which is the active the active form of thyroid hormone. So that is really important. And so if you don't have zinc and selenium, that function will not work properly, which can cause low thyroid so you can supplement zinc and selenium. You can also get them from foods Brazil nuts are really great. Anyone that has thyroid issues I tell them have like a handful of Brazil nuts a day like just you know, they're really they're large they're like three or four. Brazil nuts will do the trick and organ meats so like liver I'm a big I don't know if your liver person Philip, but I'm big about liver. I buy the chicken liver. Yeah, any kind of liver. Yeah, I think beef liver is if you if you were to do like, if you just were to look at the nutrient density of every food available, liver would be at the top of that list. Beef lovers slightly more nutritious, but chicken is not far from there. I like to buy so at my local farmers market, they sell what's called a primal blend. And it is a ground beef that is 75% You know, ground regular, like other parts of the cow and then 25% organ meats. So for people who because I find that organ meats definitely are an acquired taste, like I like I like a good pate. But that's got a lot of like other stuff in it too. So some people will supplement like liver, you can even buy it in capsules now or like put it in capsules yourself. But the primal blend is a really good way to cook with it where you don't really taste it. So Oh, hold on. Let

Philip Pape 24:05

me ask you about. Actually, that's another thing. I do use beef liver pills, mainly for the B 12. You've seen it has a similar. I mean, there's got to be stuff that it's missing or maybe not because it's desiccated form of the original compound, right? Yeah.

Haley Fountain 24:17

So it just depends on how they process it. But yeah, so anyways, zinc and selenium really important. You can supplement those things again, you know, there's so much that goes into supplementation that you really need to work with a like someone who's qualified like a functional medicine doctor, or just really really do your research because there you can with certain things, you can overdo it or you can take it and it doesn't get absorbed because it needs to be taken with something else. So that that can be challenging, but generally speaking you selenium, zinc organ meats, or Brazil Nuts also oysters are really good. I always tell women oysters are known as like an aphrodisiac food. It's because of the Think of selenium actually because they promote oats with not only tyroid health, but like women's fertility as well. So fun fact about that. So yeah, that's that zinc and selenium, magnesium, of course,

Philip Pape 25:09

before we move on to things I'm thinking of here, where does copper fit into all of this? Because I thought there was like zinc and copper play together in a way, where if you have too much of one or the other supplementation, you get comes with both at some ratio. Are you familiar with that?

Haley Fountain 25:25

Yeah. So if you take too much zinc, it can lower your copper, the lower the amount of copper in your body. Now, a lot of people were like copper or like pennies what you know, but you need you do need a small amount of copper in your body. So if you are supplementing zinc, zinc for a long time, you will want to add copper into your diet as well. So that's an example of like, if you take a supplement, you have to be really careful whenever you're taking it an isolated form versus when you take it into what I consider like a more natural package the way that nature intended for it to be. Yeah, exactly. It's more bioavailable, and you're less likely to cause those imbalances alone. So yeah, good, good question. And yeah, you want to be careful, if you do decide to take some people are just very low in zinc. And especially if you know fertility is something important to you, that's something you might be considering supplementing, it's also really helpful for sinus issues. So I will sometimes, you know, if I get a cold, take some zinc, which if you're taking it for two weeks, you're fine. But I'm talking about people that are taking it over the course of like four or six months, that's where it could impact your copper levels and you want to get maybe get something that has both of those things in it or work with a qualified practitioner to address that.

Philip Pape 26:38

Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this guest interview on Whitson weights. If you're finding it valuable, you can get a bonus conversation we recorded if you're on our email list, just go to Whitson weights.com/bonus or click the link in the show notes. Insiders on our email list will get a link to the bonus conversation where my guest will give you the exact steps to take related to one of the topics in today's episode. Again, these conversations are only available, if you're on our free email list. To get the bonus exclusive content with today's guest. Just go to Whitson weights.com/bonus or click the link in the show notes. Now back to the show. And that's a good point that we don't want to be popping pills. And definitely really for anything like we should be testing and looking at the data. And something like zinc and copper. Yeah, remember distinctly it's a very limited time period type thing for a lot of people. Yeah, getting off track just a little bit. How do we test for mineral deficiencies specifically? Is it it's got to be more than bloodwork, right? There's like hair and other tests? Or how do you do it? Yeah, so

Haley Fountain 27:42

there are hair tests. There's a company I really like hold echolife, that does a lot of really good at home testing, if that's what you want to do at home. Otherwise, yeah, you've to work with your doctor. Most like Western, you know, medical doctors, either don't have the capabilities or won't really, in my experience aren't super helpful with those types of testing if they don't necessarily see something. So you will need to see a functional medicine doctor. I know one here in my area that does mineral testing. I personally have never done it because I haven't had any concerns with it. I believe there's a blood test and a hair test that she does. So I called

Philip Pape 28:19

Live the one that mind pump always talks about I don't know, there's

Haley Fountain 28:23

I don't know, that's what I tell my clients who want the Add home test because they're more affordable. And for you knows, and sometimes you have to think about that. Because it's like, if you're like, Okay, well, I'm hearing this, and I do have fatigue, and maybe kind of brittle nails and whatever. But I don't know if I want to go because functional medicine doctors are expensive. And they have oftentimes, like the one I know has like a six month waitlist. So sometimes it's fun to just say fine. It's interesting to just do that on your own at home and see just out of curiosity, but you obviously can't use that too. You can't use that alone to make decisions. Do you want to make sure you work with someone who's qualified to do that? Cool.

Philip Pape 28:58

All right. So forgive all the interruptions, you were going on to magnesium? Yes,

Haley Fountain 29:02

magnesium. So magnesium is so important for so many things in our body. The number one thing that I recommend my clients, it's helpful for thyroid for a number of condition or number of reasons. We want to think about like tissue development, and we want to think about also, when it comes to cortisol and stress. Magnesium is the antidote to that. So when you are stressed your body eats up your magnesium. So most people are chronically deficient in magnesium and aren't aware of it. And so I typically, you know, that's one thing, especially you will know if you're struggling with magnesium if you're struggling to sleep, or if you feel really anxious all the time and like maybe unless you obviously have been diagnosed with anxiety, but even still that could, you know, sometimes be really helped mitigated with a magnesium supplementation. So that's another one that's really important in it What I like about magnesium is, you can't really for most people, unless you take like copious amounts, you can't really overdo it. So for most people, that's something that can typically take daily. A full spectrum magnesium is really helpful if you really get into the magnesium world, there's all different kinds of magnesium different strands of it, if you will, a lot of the ones out there have magnesium oxide, which is not very bioavailable magnesium citrate can be helpful for like bone density and things like that in muscle repair, but it can cause a laxative effect as well. So that's not always fun. If you take a large amount of that glycinate is the one that I typically, you know, I will take that in a full spectrum supplement and also take it by itself, especially if you have PMS symptoms for women, especially whether or not they're related to thyroid issues. magnesium glycinate, if you take like three to 400 milligrams, the days leading up to your period can be really helpful with PMS symptoms. So a lot of times women that have thyroid issues have really painful periods, the magnesium glycinate can be really helpful. What else do I want to say about magnesium?

Philip Pape 31:02

Yeah, yeah, and I understand it's very hard to get from die. Exactly. Yeah, cry, right?

Haley Fountain 31:07

Well, and you can get it from cacao was really high in magnesium. So a, you know, chocolate, but try to get like a high quality, you know, not just like Hershey's,

Philip Pape 31:17

you want to get like Cadbury cream eggs, and

Haley Fountain 31:21

they're not going to be very high and in magnesium, leafy greens, nuts and seeds. But yeah, it is it's very difficult. And especially because the food that we have today is just not as nutrient dense, because it's also your water. That's another thing I want to talk about. So you know, water is. So like, and obviously we want to drink filtered water, we don't want it to have a lot of, you know, gunk in it. But sometimes the water that we're drinking is so filtered that you know, when you think about our ancestors would have drank water from a stream that was running through rocks, rocks, and yeah, and gathering up all this yummy, all these, all these minerals that we just discussed, right? And now we don't have access to that. So yeah, I can go off on a tangent there. But getting if you can get access to like spring water or like read mineralized water from like a local water source, that can be really helpful too. It's

Philip Pape 32:14

a good idea. All right, so you covered a lot of really helpful minerals. So people listening know what to look for. The magnesium. Just one other thing I noticed for some people, my wife included, and helped her with migraines as well, you know, because again, deficiencies can cause all sorts of things you just don't know until you start plugging them, plugging them up. So that's interesting on the anxiety and how cortisol, you know, reduces it even further. So more of a reason to have that. Okay, so let's, let's transition more back into the movement side of things. You probably had enough of the minerals in nutrition that let's talk, why we haven't gotten to nutrition as much but exercise and training. You definitely talked about a lot of different modes of movement for blood sugar, but for thyroid health, specifically, you also said like overdoing it, overtraining could be a negative. Is there anything else that that you didn't already mention that super important for thyroid health? Yeah,

Haley Fountain 33:04

so I would say, kind of go diving a little deeper to what I mentioned earlier, the low impact movement is going to be really helpful. And that can be really hard, especially not even from a weight management perspective. But I've had some clients who like for them if they don't really just like toughed it out and like get a really good sweat, I think it's important to sweat daily. But if they don't like really overexert themselves, they don't feel like they did anything, right. So that can be challenging to like, retrain your body and your mind to understand like what a good workout is, you know, yoga is not only helpful as a good form of movement for building strength and flexibility, but the breath work and the mind body connection, that element of it is such an underrated tool for hormone regulation. And as I mentioned before, if you are over exercising, you are pumping out way too much adrenaline and cortisol in your body, which is going to negatively impact all of your hormones, specifically your thyroid hormones, and cause all sorts of imbalances so it actually can stunt your weight loss goals as well. So I think you know, incorporating more yoga, more walking, I mean, walking is good, good calorie burner. And what I like about walking too, is it something you can do with a friend, you can invite somebody, you can call your grandma like I'll call my grandma and talk to her for like an hour. And whenever I go for a walk or now instead of saying your friend, let's go grab a drink, I say let's go for a walk and you can catch up with somebody. So what I like about that is you're moving you're outside you're getting fresh air, you're getting your vitamin D from the sun, which vitamin D is also very important for thyroid health. And you're also you know, getting that connection with another human or something like that. As I mentioned before, building muscle is really important so you can't build muscle from well you can't build muscle from yoga but like you want to do resistance training as well. So like either Pilates is I'm a huge pilates reformer Pilates this Typically, like luxury style, builds so much strength in the body through like isometric holds. And but also just getting into the gym and lifting weights is also extremely valuable as well. I

Philip Pape 35:12

love it all. And I mean, people who know me know, although I don't do yoga, I do like to recommend people find a form of mindfulness mind body connection, whatever it is. And it could be the breath work, even walking itself, you can do a walking meditation or even lifting weights can be a mindful thing. If you're not like constantly distracted while doing it, you just focus. So all of this is great. What are your thoughts on the third leg of movement, I call it which is not not moving? And what I mean by that is not being sedentary for long stretches and sitting, does that also, does that have an impact that you understand on thyroid health?

Haley Fountain 35:43

Yeah, for sure. Well, it just it impacts the way that your body interacts with, like how you absorb calories, and how you your body processes, and how your body processes and stores fat as well. So yeah, 100% if you can stay active, whether that's like a standing desk, I'm a big fan of standing desks, mine goes up and down like that, when I you know, I spend a lot of time on on Zoom calls during the day. So I am like stretching and doing like yoga poses and like sitting in different stretches while I'm doing those calls and staying really active. So yeah, making sure like I you know, what I tell my clients is like, let's not make exercise a chore, let's make it part of our lifestyle, like make movement, a part of your lifestyle. So yeah, that and that way also to it doesn't, you know, as they say, a body at rest stays at rest and a body in motion stays in motion, it's a lot easier to create these habits whenever you just keep moving all the time, and you stay really active. So yeah, 100% and that's going to impact your metabolism the way that like I said, your body stores fat or doesn't store fat, it's going to impact your your energy levels as well and help you with your blood sugar management. So all those things are really important for your thyroid. Perfect.

Philip Pape 36:54

Yeah, no argument there. People People get out there and move but make it work for you and fit into your life with with what you enjoy, including the walking because, you know, a lot of people will say like, I'm trying to have my step count, my step count. And I used to say, well, the goal isn't up up your step count, the goal is do something enjoy that just happens to you know, increase your step count was kind of a different reframing on it. So I love that. So what about now let's get into nutrition, a little more anything that we hadn't covered to support the thyroid? We did cover a lot already on that. So are there specific foods beyond the ones with those minerals? We talked about? Anything for gut health, things like that we didn't cover? Yeah,

Haley Fountain 37:29

so a couple of things that come to mind. There's certain foods that are helpful for the thyroid. So a few that I've already mentioned sea vegetables, you can incorporate those into your diet, that's really helpful. Brazil nuts are important and strawberries are actually have been found to help the thyroid as well.

Philip Pape 37:46

Why? Why is that? Is there a compound in there? Or is it the mother? It's,

Haley Fountain 37:49

it's iodine and minerals. And there's, there's one enzyme and I can't remember the name of it. But that has been found to positively benefit the thyroid. We'll have to I'll have to double check, and I can send it to you. But that was one. Those are the three things that stuck out to me in my training.

Philip Pape 38:04

Okay, that's awesome. Yes, strawberries are great, because they also have like the most fiber to calories to volume ratio. Like if you kind of take all that together. They're like the perfect food and they super sweet. So it's kind of a cheat food. I don't like that word cheat. But in the sense that, you know, you're almost feel like you're breaking some rule by having this delicious, sweet thing that Nietzsche gave you. That also makes you feel that doesn't have so many calories and has these great minerals and enzymes.

Haley Fountain 38:31

Yeah, no, all berries are great. I mean, yeah. And I think in general with when you have thyroid conditions, you want to think about you know, I mentioned the organ meats, like the liver, meat liver is really helpful as well. You just want to think about a really balanced diet, lots of fruits and vegetables. Like if it wasn't, you know, if your grandma and grandpa didn't eat it, if it wasn't around back then then you probably want to limit or even avoid it for a while. There's it's not really rocket science. I mean, it is if it's not if it doesn't come second nature to you, but it's all the same things that you know, I imagine you talk about here on your podcast a lot. So getting you know enough fiber, cruciferous vegetables can be really helpful for the diet. And I want to address that because if you do cruciferous vegetables, some people say that for people that have direct issues, Oh, you shouldn't have cruciferous vegetables, you would have to have like copious amounts of cruciferous vegetables for it to actually negatively impact your thyroid. And the benefits definitely outweigh the cons. So I would say, you know, one serving one to two servings of cruciferous vegetables a day lightly, slightly steamed and for anyone that doesn't know what that is, those are two family of vegetables. It includes broccoli, arugula, cauliflower, cabbage. Brussel sprouts. I'm probably missing a few. But it's that if you Google cruciferous, that family I know they're all my favorites and they're yummy. They're crunchy. I love cabbage, like red cabbage and all the polyphenols from the color like there's just so many things in there. So yeah, and they're really high in fiber. They will keep your gut health you know, in check and keep things moving because that's a big thing about Hormonal Health is you know your body He filters out all these excess hormones and releases them through your bowels. So if you're not having, you know, kind of pivoting into gut health, if you're not having a really good bowel movement, ideally twice, at least twice a day, but minimum once a day, you're just all those things are being recirculated into your bloodstream. So there's cruciferous vegetables, and that high fiber diet is really important. Some of the highest fiber foods you can eat artichokes, pears, avocados, lentils, and beans, things like that.

Philip Pape 40:27

Awesome. So for everybody listening, this is what we mean by eating for you and your goals and your values and your health. Right? It's not just the macros and it's not just body composition here, but all of this stuff. And you know, talking about this food always makes me hungry at this time. But like my wife makes, she'll just take white cat green cabbage, slice it into really thin discs, and then saute that or like roast it. Yeah, chard like edge to it so good. Because, you know, a lot of people think of cabbages as like, like, I don't know, like a cabbage. Or soggy. Yeah, you can make it dry. Just like Brussels sprouts, you can get nice shaved and roasted Brussels. Okay, this is this is getting hungry. Yeah, no, me too. Why don't we bring this home by time to sleep? Because sleep Oh, boy. Sleep is like, so important in everything. And it's one of the most neglected up across the population. And before we do for the listener, I think we're going to record an extra little bonus episode to answer some q&a, because I know a lot of people have questions. A lot of women have questions about specific scenarios, based on their thyroid levels, and hypothyroidism and all that, we're going to get to that, and that'll be dropped to my email list insiders on that list. So if you want that, go to Whitson weights.com/bonus. And you'll get that with Haley soon. But Haley, let's take it down to sleep, and the value of sleep for everything, especially thyroid health. Yeah, I

Haley Fountain 41:45

mean, I always tell my clients and everyone like in my communities sleep is like if your house if your body if your house was, or I'm sorry, if your your health and your body were a house, then sleep would be the foundation, that foundation, if that foundation is cracked, that foundation is wobbly, if it's not put in well, then nothing else is going to work above that, right. So you're when you sleep, that's when your body's restoring and repairing. So naturally, if you're not getting good quality sleep every night, that's going to impact every element of your health. Now, more specifically, where it can be challenging is if you're not sleeping well, then that means your cortisol levels are going to be spiking at weird times of the day, which as we discussed earlier, is really going to negatively impact your thyroid. So it's so important to get good quality sleep, especially for people that have a known thyroid condition, going to bed and waking up at the same time or roughly the same time every day is going to have a really big impact on your energy levels, your thyroid, all the things that we discussed. So yeah, just it's really important. And then if you you're struggling to sleep, obviously, there's so many things you can do the magnesium supplementation at dinnertime will be really helpful for you. Good

Philip Pape 42:54

point. Yeah, let's so consistent sleep schedule. I love that. And I would extrapolate that to everything we do. It's it's very interesting how the body responds to consistency where it's like another form of stress, right? It knows what's coming in, therefore, it relaxes, if you will, including our even our metabolic rate. I've seen people who eat at different times day to day will burn fewer calories because of the unpredictability to your body. So I love that hack for sleep. What do you think of naps?

Haley Fountain 43:19

So I personally am not a huge fan of naps. I think the research that I've read, oh, let me tell you this, I'm not a fan because it doesn't work for me, doesn't mean doesn't work for other people. I have tried to be a Napper and it doesn't work and makes me more anxious and more tired. So it just doesn't work. For me. What I do love is something called Yoga Nidra which is a form of yoga that is a guided body scan meditation 15 to 20 minutes, so I will do an afternoon yoga nidra like guided with my headphones in and I will lay down on the ground with like something under my knees and a like weighted blanket on me and you don't actually fall asleep but your body goes into like that your brain goes into a theta state that helps me to kind of recharge now the research shows that naps before approximately 2pm can be effective after 2pm It's going to impact your circadian rhythms, which is your body's natural kind of wake and sleep cycles. So it really just depends on the person. I have seen some people who love really standby what they call like the caffeine nap where you because caffeine takes 20 minutes to get to your bloodstream so they'll drink some caffeine like drink a cup of coffee or tea and then take a 20 minute nap and then they'll wake up and be like really rested. I'm so sensitive to caffeine now I don't drink coffee at all I just drink tea and I can only have one cup in the morning so a night because otherwise I don't sleep at night so again i i say that I'm not a fan but it's because it just doesn't work for my body doesn't mean doesn't work for other people. But I have you know I usually cautioned against it unless you can be very disciplined and actually only take a 20 minute nap because they say after 30 minutes it actually can negatively impact you as well. Yeah

Philip Pape 44:52

it's like this fine skill is like okay get to sleep mask and get set the alarm and be just in the right conditions and all those stresses you out just to try to get that nap. I I love the yoga nidra idea, though. So that that's really cool. Maybe Maybe we can share a resource with the listener on that. Because I know you obviously are yoga instructor out. There you are. Yeah. Alright, so I like to ask this question of all guests, Haley. And that is, is there anything you wish I had asked? And what is your answer? Oh,

Haley Fountain 45:15

you know what, actually, I don't necessarily wish you asked this. But something I want to add in about the thyroid, that two things actually that come to mind. One is more of a lifestyle thing. And that is EMF, electromagnetic fields. So AKA, this thing, cellphone, our phones and all anything that has like Wi Fi gives off electromagnetic fields, aka radiation, and they research it's still emerging, but they find that the thyroid is very sensitive, sensitive to EMFs. So I find that interesting, because with the, you know, thyroid conditions have, you know, like quadrupled in the last, you know, 1015 years. Part of that is probably inability to diagnose, you know, are not the right tools to diagnose, but we're seeing thyroid issues becoming more and more prevalent. What are we using more and more of right now. So, you know, I think they're, I do think they're, you know, this is anecdotal, not completely anecdotal, because they have found a link between the two, but they have found that thyroid is very sensitive to it. So if you have a thyroid condition, it may be worth considering, you know, getting time away from tech, getting more time in nature. And maybe if you like, if you're in an apartment, you can't turn if you turn your Wi Fi off your neighbors, you're going to be their Wi Fi is going to be dinging you. So it doesn't really work. But if you're in a house, or if you live somewhere where you can get time away from technology, they even have like blankets and like tools that you can use to like protect your bed for like the areas that you're in from Wi Fi, that might be a good idea. The second thing is to the energetic you know, I'm I take a holistic approach to I look at all approaches where people are thyroid is very much if you think about the endocrine system, you're in the in the chakras, if you're really into yoga, the chakras are really just the endocrine system, right? So your thyroid, that's your throat chakra. And if you think about if there's, you know, I always tell women who have thyroid issues, I'm like, is there something you're not saying to somebody is there something you're not, you're not speaking your truth, there's an there's an energy there. And so, again, this is not scientific, this is maybe a little more, you know, esoteric, or like woowoo. But I do think it's worth, you know, our emotional state impacts our physical body. So it's important to look at all things and if modern science isn't working for you maybe consider, you know, the emotional and energetic elements of that part of your body, as well as the physical and scientific. So just something worth noting if that resonates with anybody. I

Philip Pape 47:32

love that I'm super open minded about all this stuff. And I mean, honestly, science when we say science, and modern science probably represents a sliver of what we could possibly know in the universe right now. And we just haven't, quote unquote, proven this stuff. And I love the idea that even the chakras and Eastern medicine, a lot of that's a representation for things that we're actually discovering, through science eventually. And whether we do or not, I love the idea of just addressing some of the self talk, self sabotage, whatever the things are the emotional things holding you back and with your, your communication. So that's awesome. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And with EMS and all that, where can listeners learn more about you and your work? Ely? Yeah, so

Haley Fountain 48:09

my website is my business is called holistic in Houston. So it was kind of like a play on words like Sleepless in Seattle, but holistic. And so my website is holistic and houston.com. And I'm on Instagram at holistic underscore in underscore Houston, so holistic in Houston, but with underscores, that's where I'm most active. I do have a YouTube channel where I upload yoga flows and meditations as well. So it's just holistic and Houston on YouTube. Alright,

Philip Pape 48:32

and you've made to like 80s or 90s references. So you look a lot younger than maybe you are, I don't know, we'll have to talk about that off. Because I'm a child of the 80s. He made these. Sleepless in Seattle is well known to me. Okay, so your website, holistic and houston.com. And we'll put your IG in there as well. It's been a pleasure, Hayley. I loved everything we talked about today. We got a lot into on the thyroid, and lots more. So thanks for coming on.

Haley Fountain 48:54

Thank you.

Philip Pape 48:55

Philip Pape 4/23/24 Philip Pape 4/23/24

Ep 166: The Body Recomposition Blueprint (Recomp to Build Muscle and Lose Fat at the Same Time)

Are you feeling lost in the calorie counting maze for body recomposition? Struggling to juggle muscle gain and fat loss at the same time? Tired of the yo-yo effect after dieting? Philip talks about body recomposition and strategies for muscle gain and fat loss. He emphasizes patience and consistency, starting with maintenance calories for beginners and slower recomp for experienced individuals. Philip also dives into caloric balance, setting and adjusting calorie targets, and optimizing macronutrient ratios for muscle growth and fat loss. He emphasizes the importance of peri-workout nutrition to support muscle growth through strategic protein and carbohydrate consumption.

Are you feeling lost in the calorie counting maze for body recomposition? Struggling to juggle muscle gain and fat loss at the same time? Tired of the yo-yo effect after dieting?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) talks about body recomposition and strategies for muscle gain and fat loss. He emphasizes patience and consistency, starting with maintenance calories for beginners and slower recomp for experienced individuals. Philip also dives into caloric balance, setting and adjusting calorie targets, and optimizing macronutrient ratios for muscle growth and fat loss. He emphasizes the importance of peri-workout nutrition to support muscle growth through strategic protein and carbohydrate consumption.

Philip also stresses that strength training is crucial to body recomposition and long-term fat loss. He shares principles of effective strength training, including progressive overload and proper exercise techniques. He also touches on the hormonal benefits of strength training, like elevated testosterone and growth hormones.

Philip advocates a holistic approach to body recomposition, incorporating nutrition, training, mindset, and lifestyle factors. He encourages celebrating small victories, staying dedicated, and trusting the process towards achieving your desired physique.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

1:59 Wins from the WWPU community
6:48 Common misunderstanding about body recomp
10:57 Underlying body recomp mechanisms
13:47 Three categories of body recomp
19:37 Using nutrition for body recomposition
27:20 Setting your macros
28:47 The significance of effective strength training
31:09 Benefits of proper training and building muscle mass
33:40 Peri-workout nutrition
36:34 Optimizing health and hormone status
39:59 The importance of mindset
44:02 Final thoughts on body recomp
48:27 Outro

Episode resources:

Watch this FREE video on how to setup MacroFactor for body recomp
Try MacroFactor FREE with my code WITSANDWEIGHTS

Related episodes:

Episode summary:

Philip Pape guides us through the intriguing process of body recomposition, a dual-purpose approach that entails building muscle while losing fat. This episode delves into the nuances of this transformational journey.

The podcast begins with an exploration of the science behind body recomposition, addressing the common misconceptions that have long been associated with this concept. Philip emphasizes that achieving muscle growth and fat loss simultaneously is not exclusive to beginners or individuals with higher body fat percentages but is a viable goal for even the trained athlete. The episode stands out for its clear demystification of this process, shedding light on how to strategically balance one's nutritional intake and exercise regimen to optimize results.

As the episode progresses, the discussion pivots to the topic of caloric balance and macro tracking. Philip introduces Macrofactor, an app designed to streamline the often-overwhelming process of calorie and macronutrient tracking. The app's ability to adjust to an individual's personal metrics and goals is highlighted as a game-changer in personal fitness. Listeners are offered a free Macrofactor Mastery video, a tool that promises to simplify the initial setup and goal configuration within the app.

Strength training, as Philip discusses, is not only instrumental in muscle development but also serves as a catalyst for an increased metabolic rate. The podcast underscores the aesthetic benefits of muscle density, where one can achieve a leaner appearance without a significant drop in scale weight. Philip touches upon the importance of pre- and post-workout nutrition, shedding light on the optimal timing and composition of meals that fuel workouts and facilitate recovery.

The final segment of the podcast centers on the psychological aspect of body recomposition. A mindset grounded in patience, consistency, and trust in the long-term process is deemed crucial. Philip illustrates this with a personal narrative about managing expectations during his shoulder rehabilitation, emphasizing the significance of celebrating incremental progress.

Throughout the episode, Philip intertwines personal anecdotes and success stories from the Physique University, each one reinforcing the central theme that consistent, practical actions, aligned with a sustainable and flexible approach, are the cornerstones of a successful body transformation.

In summary, the episode of Wits and Weights not only serves as an instructional blueprint for those seeking to revolutionize their physique but also instills a sense of confidence and reassurance that with the right mindset and tools, body recomposition is an achievable reality. Philip’s expertise and thoughtful guidance make this episode an essential listen for anyone interested in elevating their fitness journey.

emphasizes that achieving muscle growth and fat loss simultaneously is not exclusive to beginners or individuals with higher body fat percentages but is a viable goal for even the trained athlete. The episode stands out for its clear demystification of this process, shedding light on how to strategically balance one's nutritional intake and exercise regimen to optimize results.

As the episode progresses, the discussion pivots to the topic of caloric balance and macro tracking. Philip introduces Macrofactor, an app designed to streamline the often-overwhelming process of calorie and macronutrient tracking. The app's ability to adjust to an individual's personal metrics and goals is highlighted as a game-changer in personal fitness. Listeners are offered a free Macrofactor Mastery video, a tool that promises to simplify the initial setup and goal configuration within the app.

Strength training, as Philip discusses, is not only instrumental in muscle development but also serves as a catalyst for an increased metabolic rate. The podcast underscores the aesthetic benefits of muscle density, where one can achieve a leaner appearance without a significant drop in scale weight. Philip touches upon the importance of pre- and post-workout nutrition, shedding light on the optimal timing and composition of meals that fuel workouts and facilitate recovery.

The final segment of the podcast centers on the psychological aspect of body recomposition. A mindset grounded in patience, consistency, and trust in the long-term process is deemed crucial. Philip illustrates this with a personal narrative about managing expectations during his shoulder rehabilitation, emphasizing the significance of celebrating incremental progress.

Throughout the episode, Philip intertwines personal anecdotes and success stories from the Physique University, each one reinforcing the central theme that consistent, practical actions, aligned with a sustainable and flexible approach, are the cornerstones of a successful body transformation.

In summary, the episode of Wits and Weights not only serves as an instructional blueprint for those seeking to revolutionize their physique but also instills a sense of confidence and reassurance that with the right mindset and tools, body recomposition is an achievable reality. Philip's expertise and thoughtful guidance make this episode an essential listen for anyone interested in elevating their fitness journey.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Do you want to build muscle and lose fat at the same time? It may sound too good to be true. But body composition or recomp is a real phenomenon that can completely transform your physique if done in the right way for you, your body and your phase of nutrition and training, and in this episode, we are providing you with the ultimate evidence based blueprint to optimize your nutrition training and health to achieve simultaneous fat loss and muscle growth like never before. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in.

Philip Pape 00:55

Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the weights and weights podcast. In our last episode 165 The Stealth mind trick to turn excuses into action with Paul Salter, you learn how to turn your excuses your self sabotage your procrastination and your perfectionism into massive action by digging beneath the surface to the subconscious mind. Today for episode 166 The body composition blueprint recomp to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, I'm going to break down the science behind body composition, aka body recomp, which is building muscle and losing fat at the same time. Discuss the different ways it can play out based on your starting point and provide concrete strategies for optimizing everything required to get there your nutrition, your training your health, so that you can maximize your results for body recomp. And by the end of this episode, you'll have a clear blueprint to put body composition into action. Now before we get into it, I did want to share some wins from the first few weeks of Whitson weights physique university that we just launched earlier this month. And I want you to spot the pattern here as I share some of these so here we go, quote, I consistently logged my food everyday. This week, I got all my workouts in. I started journaling again, first thing in the morning, every day. I'm seeing good progress and my fat loss phase. I learned cardio is not a bad thing, and can be integrated into my strength training. As long as it doesn't affect my lifts. I settled in with my mindset to be in sync with my goals. I worked on my sleep. I'm starting to track more consistently, even the small bites. I am most proud of the positive self talk. Knowing this is a lifelong journey, not a race. I am most proud of how I was able to put into practice what I've learned about flexible dieting. While traveling for the past two weekends, I was able to enjoy food without feeling restricted and quote, now that is just a sampling of wins from the Whitson weights physique university community over the first few weeks. And I asked you now to tell me could you spot or can you spot what they all have in common? Now I know you can actually answer me here. But rhetorically, the common theme with all of these comments is, they are all simple practical wins focused on consistency on daily habits, on enjoying the process. And the process ultimately produces the progress, right? They're not about quick fixes. They're not about losing 20 pounds in one week, saying no to particular foods or activities, or punishing yourself to get a result. There simply positive affirmations from people who are expanding their comfort zone. They're doing it in the right way. They are starting to shift both their bodies and their minds their perspectives in the pursuit of better health, which just so happens will also get them a better physique and more confidence along the way. Now, all of these students in WWE pu are then able to ask questions, get support, join live calls, watch courses to level up their knowledge and share their success with other curious like minded and very ambitious individuals who are seeking to become their best selves, even in their 30s their 40s their 50s and beyond. And we're just scratching the surface of what students will be achieving in Whitson weights physique University. So if you're curious what it's all about, just head over to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in my show notes. That's winsome weights.com/physique. Alright, one more thing related to today's topic on body recomp. So my friend and fellow podcaster Jeff hain, you may already know him he's the host of the mind muscle connection. Definitely follow his show. If you don't already. It's been in my feed for quite a long time. That's Jeff Hain H O Ehn. And he and I recorded a co hosted q&a coming out on May 3 for episode 169 and Jeff is all about body recomp. He has a free work Shut up, like that's his thing these days. So wanted to give him a shout out. Given that that is the topic of today's episode on Whitson weights, and he was on our show as a guest way back on episode 66. And on that show, we talked about sustaining your fat loss results at maintenance, which is somewhat related, not entirely, right, because that's after going through a fat loss phase. But I wanted to mention that, and I'm going to include a link to that episode in the show notes, as well as some other episodes that I referenced today. But I bring this up, because if you want to be 100% sure that you don't miss our upcoming q&a, where we answer questions on menopause, weight loss resistance, bulking without getting fat, whether you should be dieting during periods of low sleep, and more, there are six questions in total from our two communities together, I want you to pause right now, and click the Follow button in your podcast app. Alright, you're gonna get notified of the episode when it comes out. And as a side benefit, the more people that follow the show, you know, who actually click that button, the more people who can find the show, because Apple and Spotify they tend to prioritize followers, right, it used to be called subscribers and other called followers just make it confusing. And they prioritize those over just individual episode downloads. And also, as much as I love ratings and reviews, and I really would love you to take time to go out and review in Apple right now, feel free to pause and go do that. As much as I love that. And it's great for social proof, the best thing for the algorithm is to follow the show. So again, pause the episode right now, go to the Show page in your app and tap the Follow button to support the show and get notified of future episodes. Alright, so let's get into today's topic, the body composition blueprint recomp to build muscle and lose fat at the same time, body composition, right what the cool kids call body recomp. Now, actually, body recomp is a pretty common casual term for this. And body composition tends to be the slightly more formal term. But it's the same thing. And today, I want to lay out this blueprint for how to do it how to successfully build muscle and lose fat at the same time, which is an approach that really can completely transform your physique. In fact, it is the underpinning of everything we do, even when we talk about cuts in bulks, and I'll explain why when we get there. It's often misunderstood. Because you might have heard, it's impossible to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously. Or it's very hard to do it. Or it can only be done by brand new lifters or people who are very obese. Right? I might have mentioned things like that myself, honestly, I might have said things like, and really it's only good for newer lifters. But we have to think about context. And we have to define body recomp. And what we mean and I think there's a broader term, a broader definition I'm going to use in today's episode, that will give you some clarity and some options as well. And some flexibility which we love here. And people will say well don't you have to focus on one goal at a time either bulking up or cutting fat? Well, it turns out that that's not necessarily the case. Or it's not doesn't have to be as extreme as you think in either direction. And that's what we're gonna talk about today. So with the right strategies with the right mindset with the right knowledge and options, you can definitely achieve body recomp and sculpt that leaner more muscular physique, using a slightly different approach than just going all out on cuts and books. So as always, definitions are important. So let's define exactly what we mean by body re composition. Okay, body re composition, I want to be clear. So body composition just refers to the amount of fat and muscle you have. Body recomposition refers to simultaneously decreasing your body fat percentage while increasing your lean muscle mass, thus improving your overall look your overall leanness, and your overall body composition, re composition. So you're not just focusing on one aspect, like scale weight, or just on body fat. It's really the whole thing doing it at the same time. But the same time is kind of a flexible term we're going to get to in a bit. Now there's plenty of evidence that supports the viability of body recomp. Even in trained individuals, not just newbies, so trained individuals, one that I like is a 2020 article by Chris bear caught at all Chris Bearcat. And you probably know Chris, he's been on a ton of podcasts, I really need to reach out and get him on the show. If you're listening man, or if anybody else is listening, who paid my friend Jeff hay and anybody else my podcasters who know Chris and want to hook us up, feel free to give me an introduction, but either way, I'm gonna reach out. He and his colleagues had an article titled, body composition can trained individuals build muscle and lose fat at the same time. And it concluded that quote, despite the common belief that building muscle and losing fat at the same time is only plausible in novice slash obese individuals. The literature provided supports that trained individuals can also experience body composition, individuals training status, the exercise interventions, and their baseline body composition can influence the magnitude of muscle gain and fat loss risk. assistance training coupled with dietary strategies has been shown to augment this phenomenon and quote, alright, we also see this play out anecdotally all the time when I'm working with coaching clients, because I can't tell you how many clients I've worked with who stayed the same weight on the scale. And sometimes they maybe didn't want to stay the same way early on, at least they wanted that quick win of fat loss. But they ended up staying the same way it might have even looked like a little bit of a plateau, or they even gained a tiny bit of weight. But then their physique completely transformed, their waist size went down, their clothes fit better, they look better in the mirror, they felt stronger, and, and they were standing taller, and all of those things, because they gain muscle and drop body fat simultaneously. And so the scale just doesn't tell the full story when it comes to the composition. And it also doesn't have to necessarily stay at maintenance, like stay the exact same for you to achieve body recovered can happen in different phases, which we'll get to. So why is re composition physiologically possible. And I'd like to dig a little bit into the underlying mechanisms underlying processes. And when we do that, it starts to make a little bit of sense. Because to lose stored body fat, you normally need a calorie deficit, right, you normally need to be dieting, eating less than you burn, you expend more energy than you consume, right? But okay, so that's for fat loss, that's to lose store body fat. But to build muscle mass, you don't necessarily need a net calorie surplus, what you need is sufficient protein and a muscle building training stimulus. Now, protein synthesis, muscle protein synthesis and fat lie policies are separate metabolic processes, they involve different tissues. And as long as you achieve a net deficit to tap into fat stores, while providing enough protein and training to build muscle, re composition can occur. And this is why it can be confusing. So the way I like to put it is, imagine you're eating just enough food to maintain your weight. And at the same time, your training is very effective. And you have plenty of protein. And so your body at this state where you're kind of like just maintaining your weight, you're training hard, you're having that protein, your body feels relaxed or safe enough, like it doesn't feel like it's threatened or in a deficit. Right. So it's safe enough to draw from the protein you're consuming, and to build a little extra muscle. But when it does that, when it prioritizes that because you're telling it, it's important with this training stimulus, it all of a sudden doesn't have that much energy left over for everything else, your body needs to stay at homeostasis. So then your body's all says, oh, I need to release a bit of energy from fat cells to make up the difference. And voila, you've added a bit of tissue over here, you've lost a little bit of fat over there, and you've maintained your weight. But it's as if you're in a slight surplus, it's as if you're in a slight surplus from the muscle building side of the process. I mean, it's pretty cool. It's like your body kind of thinks it has enough resources to build muscle and you're telling it, it's important. So it's going to do that. But then it realized that sacrificed some of the energy coming in over here, so it needs to release some fat. Now there's one other phenomenon, I didn't have it in my notes. But it came to mind when somebody has excessive weight to lose, and you go into a fat loss phase, right, you can still build muscle then as well like in a decently aggressive fat loss phase. Because you have so much fat, so much extra fat stored, that the body is able to pull from that without even feeling like you're in a deficit. And thus, also build muscle with that what appears to be a surplus, it's almost like a trick surplus, because you have all that extra stored fat. Anyway, those are some interesting mechanisms going on. That tell us why it is possible to do this. So what I want to do is talk about how recomp can play out for you based on your starting point. And I want to break it into three categories, losing weight, maintenance, and gaining weight because body recomp can occur in all three. It can also occur over the long term, which is not in the scope of today's show, but I am going to mention it when we talk about gaining weight. But losing weight maintenance and gaining weight are three scenarios where body recomp can occur. So right there, hopefully shattering a belief or myth that you might have that recomp is equivalent to maintenance because it's not equivalent, you can definitely recomp at maintenance, and it's the most common way people do it or try to do it. But you could also recomp losing or gaining. So we're just going to start with losing weight. But then we're gonna talk about maintenance and we're going to talk about gaining weight. So the first category is what is what people think of as like the dream scenario of recomp which is you can lose more body fat than you gain muscle but you're still doing both. In other words, your weight is actually going down and your measurements are going down as well. And you look leaner and more muscular rather than skinny fat because you're building muscle so you're losing fat, building muscle the same time you're actually losing more fat in terms of mass, you know, weight Eat, then you are gaining muscle, which means you also lose weight on the scale, a lot of people like really want this scenario because you kind of get wins on all sides, right, you get lighter on the scale, you get leaner looking, you get more muscle, it's all the best of everything. Now, this tends to be common in individuals who are pretty new to proper training and nutrition, because they have a lot of room for quick improvement on both fronts, right, they have a lot of room for the training side, because they've never given their body this amazing signal from their strength training. At the same time, they are properly dieting at the right rate of loss to induce a little bit of fat loss, but not so much that it threatens their body's resources to kind of clamp down and avoid building more muscle, you know, let alone lose muscle, right? That would have to be more aggressive dieting. So we're going to talk about the rates of loss in a later segment today when we get into nutrition. But that is the first scenario is your net loss in weight, while you're building a little muscle and losing fat. The second scenario is maintenance. Okay, this is gaining muscle, losing some body fat, not much change in scale weight. All right. So this would be like, Okay, so this is an interesting one, because you might maintain your weight, or this could also refer to over the long term you've gained and lost weight, and you've come back to the same scale way as you started. But in the process, you've added muscle and loss fat, we're not really talking about that one, because that's kind of cheating when I say body recon, because then everybody is doing body recover over time. If you're doing this the right way, right, if you're at some point building muscle, and at some point losing fat, and then it all kind of nets out. All right, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about just staying at maintenance, more or less maintaining your body weight within, say, plus or minus three pounds, but you're slowly but surely, adding a little muscle losing a little fat, the weight on the scale doesn't change, your waist size continues to go down, you keep getting stronger, and it's all happening without any change on the scale. So again, for brand new lifters, this is totally possible. In fact, it's a very common and recommended approach that I use with clients is just stay at maintenance for a while to beginning. And you can even stay there for longer than a while, if you find it's getting great results. Because now you're not even worried about having to gain or lose weight, which adds an extra stressor and an extra level of planning and tracking. So the only other scenario, where I would say that this happens is once you've gone through some cuts and bulks and you've improved your body comp in the past, and you just want to maintain your physique, you know, staying at maintenance train really hard and not accidentally dieting for the most part, you can still slowly recover over time on top of it. So even advanced or trained individuals might consider this approach to body recomp. The third category is very, very, very slowly gaining weight, so modestly gaining being in a surplus and gaining a little bit more muscle than you would at maintenance, right, because at some point, especially the more advanced you are as a trainee, it's very hard to build extra muscle tissue without getting yourself in a little bit of a surplus. So this is most common and very well trained individuals who want to keep getting leaner, but they don't want to necessarily go through the bulk and cut cycles. And, you know, this is where we might be cocking your eyebrows and thinking, well, that's not really body recomp is it if you're gaining weight, but again, technically, it's not short term body recomp that would happen in maintenance, but it's potentially medium term, or kind of an efficient version of body recomp. Because you're spending some time slowly gaining muscle and then maybe a little bit of time doing a micro cut or a very slow conservative fat loss phase like you can pick one or the other. And it doesn't feel too extreme in either direction. So I would say that this is a bit different from the kind of more optimal or even aggressive muscle building phase. That's then followed by a moderate progressive cut, which I like to live in that state because I feel it's the most time efficient to get from A to B in terms of body fat percentage, and leanness, and muscle and strength and everything is the most efficient, and I enjoy kind of eating a bunch of food for a long time of the year. And then not taking too long to cut that off. Right. But some people might rather enjoy eating a moderate amount of food all throughout the year. And then when you're losing fat, you're still eating a moderate amount of food because it's not much different. So one might appeal to you and there's no wrong answer, there's no right or wrong answer, they're gonna result in slightly different timing, aggressiveness and results. The results gonna be the same at and long term. But you might see different results in the short term. Alright, so if you do things more slowly, but still biased toward one direction, like the gain weight and the lose weight part, this will produce body recomp over time without the larger swings that come from these very focused bulking cut cycles. And that might be an attractive reason to do it for a lot of you. Alright, so first you want to figure out which category you want to go after. Because you might have started listening to this episode thinking okay, he's gonna talk to me about maintenance. How do I do that? Oh, now I realized that there are options I might want to go in one direction or another. If you're a newer trainee, you might want to try a little bit of fat loss while you're recopying. Or if you're more advanced, you might want to try a little bit of the gain side. Then we're going to segue into my favorite topic which is using nutrition to optimize your body composition. In that context, whatever you choose, okay, it's going to depend on the three categories, which category you choose. So first, we need to nail down Calories. Calories are your energy balance that tells you which direction you're gonna go. And they're going to be pegged to your expenditure, your daily expenditure, also called your maintenance calories. And I've talked about this before. But just to reiterate, especially if you're new or not familiar with this topic, the best way to determine your maintenance calories is not an online calculator. And it is not your wearable device, it is tracking your food over about two to three weeks, tracking your weight over two to three weeks and seeing how one affects the other. If you eat 2500 calories every single day and your weight doesn't change one ounce over that two weeks, then you know your expenditure is 2500 calories. Now, the problem with this approach is it requires not only the tracking which tracking is fine, I'm perfectly cool tracking, I think tracking is a wonderful thing. It's the more tedious, laborious calculations based on what you've tracked, that can be tricky for some people, or downright overwhelming, scary or tedious. So this is where a tool or an app that can do this for you is going to be your best friend. From a practical standpoint, the one that I use is called macro factor. My clients use it my students and Whitson weights physique University use it. And it can calculate your expenditure, your true metabolism based on what you're eating and your weight. And then it can make adjustments weekly to your calories into your macros based on your goal. So it does everything for you. And if you want, okay, so here's what I'm gonna throw in as a goodie, for this episode, I made a video in which awaits physique University under a course called macro factor mastery, and it's how to download, do the initial setup and then set up your goal for maintenance and for recomp in macro factor walks you through the whole process with screenshots and everything on how to set up everything. So I actually put that on YouTube, it's unlisted, you can't get to it publicly. But I'm gonna put the link in the show notes for free for you as a podcast listener to go check it out. Okay, totally free, you don't have to opt in, you have to give me an email or anything. It's a YouTube link. It'll just take you right to the video. Check that out in the show notes on our episode resources. And I talked about it. So why am I telling you all this because to figure out what calories you need, you need to know your maintenance calories, the only way to do that is to know your true metabolism that how your body responds to your activities, and your food. And the best way to do that is track your weight and food over time. All right, then you're going to adjust your goal to either gain or lose or maintain. And then if you're gaining or losing, you want to pick a conservative rate, if we're going for body recomp, right, we're not going for cuts and bulks all out we're going for recomp. And then you'll have your surplus or your deficit relative to your maintenance calories. And then you can update that each week as your metabolism adapts. Okay, so now I'm going to give you some actual numbers that makes sense for most people that you can use. So obviously, if you're going to maintain, just eat around your maintenance, and you're good, so if you've burned 2500 calories, eat 2500 calories a day, more or less, and you're good. You know, if the next week your metabolism has gone up a bit, because you've got all these resources, your body feels relaxed, you don't have as much stress, or maybe you've got an extra few 1000 steps a day of walking, whatever causes that increase, you're going to eat 2600 calories, let's say, either way, you're going to eat in a way that maintains your weight. And I would prefer aiming a tiny bit above that, like up to 50 calories over on a daily basis. So you're gonna hit your protein, then you're gonna get in fats, and carbs. And so your calories come up to your maintenance, and you're gonna kind of overshoot that just a tiny bit every day. And I like that approach because it avoids accidentally dieting, and accidentally being under fueled. Because my opinion is if you're going to maintain your weight, you might as well do it in the most fueled, fed, you know, resource, abundant state rather than slightly under fed constantly where you get symptoms of dieting, like hunger. And there's no reason for that. I mean, the only reason you think there's a reason is you're afraid of gaining all this weight. But if you're properly tracking, if you're using an app like macro factor, you're gonna be very precise, you'll know where you need to be. And if your weight does start to drift one way or the other, you can always adjust the other way. And it's a slow process. Right? So yeah, you risk the tiniest, tiniest bit of weight gain doing this, but it's well worth the being in that fed energized state all the time. And that's that maintenance. Okay. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of wits and weights. I started Whitson weights to help people who want to build muscle, lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to Whitson weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today, I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. If we are, we'll get you started this week. Now, back to the show.

Philip Pape 25:33

Now, if you want to lose weight, I would aim for the low end of the evidence based range to avoid muscle loss, but still make progress. And that is point two 5% of your body weight per week. Alright, so a quarter percent of your body weight per week. So let's say you weigh 200 pounds, that's half a pound a week. And if you do the math, based on 3500 calories per pound, that's a 250 calorie deficit, which is enough to move the needle. But it's not anywhere close to the regime of potentially losing muscle, or getting into those real dieting. Biofeedback, states have lots of hunger and potentially higher stress and lower sleep and so on. Right, it's only 250 calorie deficit, it's really not that much. Alright, and remember, we're trying to possibly add more muscle tissue even while losing weight. So we can't go that aggressive. But we don't want to go so slowly that we're really just at maintenance anyway. Right. So that's where I think the point two 5% body weight a week is reasonable. And then if you want to gain I would also aim for the low end of what we have found is the evidence based range of actually gaining muscle and not just being a maintenance. And that's pretty conservative. It's point 1% of your body weight per week. So let's say you weigh 150 pounds, that's only point one five pounds per week, that's like a 55 calorie surplus. And that's barely above maintenance. As I said earlier, even at maintenance, I aim for up to about 50 calories over. So when you're trying to deliberately build weight over time, you know, 55 calories for 150 pound person, which for a 200 pound person is going to be like, you know, 75 calories is not that big of a difference, it's enough to kind of push the needle and make sure that you're building that muscle, but then it's not so much that you can also potentially lose fat at the same time. Okay. Now, once you've got your calories set, you can then peg your macros accordingly. And you're going to aim for point seven to one gram of protein per pound of your target body weight. Now your target body weight may not be that far from your current body weight. So to simplify, it could just go with the current body weight, and I would be closer to the one gram per pound since we're going for recomp. So to simplify all of what I just said protein, around one gram a pound for what you weigh right now. So if you weigh 180 pounds, aim for 180 grams of protein, right? Because it is body recomp. I want you to bias the protein a little higher than if we were just in one of the more extreme phases for fat, I would get in somewhere around 20 to 30% of your calories for general health for hormone production, all of that. And then the rest goes toward carbs. There's a lot of flexibility of fats and carbs. I've mentioned this in the past on this show. But carbs are really important, especially if you're a main, you know, in either of these phases, because in all three of these potential phases, you're not that far from maintenance, so you should have a reasonable amount of calories to work with. And carbs are always your friend when it comes to training, performance, you know, fueling your workouts, partitioning nutrients toward muscle building instead of fat storage and recovering from your workouts as well. They just helped me feel great, they give you energy. And for many of us practically we love to eat food that contains carbs as well fruit, starches, grains, you know all of that. So there you go. That's the basic nutrition for those three categories of recon. Now, Perry workout nutrition, by Perry, we mean around your workout. So before during after kind of within a couple hour window of that workout. Perry workout nutrition is super important. But before we go there, I want to take a tangent on training on your workouts for a second because this is the only time I'm going to discuss that today. I'm always assuming that if you're listening to this show strength training is important and you understand the value of it. But I do have to reiterate that all of the other stuff we talked about today is kind of irrelevant. If you're not training, right. Most of today's discussion is about nutrition and lifestyle, but it assumes your strength training and doing it effectively to give your body plenty of stimulus for muscle growth that is just default. That's assumed because for body recomp we're trying to build muscle and lose fat at the same time. So the premise is you're doing something to build muscle, right? The doing both at the same time part is what's tricky, and that's why I'm covering most of these other topics today. But good timing on this episode because if you want all the details behind effective training principles, I did recently cover them all in Episode 162, which is titled bodybuilding for everyday lifters who want to build their dream physique. And I'm gonna link that one in the show notes as well. So If you want to get into details on all these principles, check that episode out. It's actually one of my favorites personally that I made for the show. And it's a recent one as well. So I think you'll like that. But in summary, what do we mean by effective training or training hard, I think it means three things. Okay. And I usually state these things in a similar kind of approach. Whenever I talk about this, it's generally the same things. And we're talking principles here not programming. And in all of that, number one, it means training close to failure, most of the time, within one to three reps of failure, depending on the movement. That's the first one. Number two, it means progressing in load reps, set some combination of these things over time, what we call progressive overload. And number three, it's training with sufficient intensity and execution, using movements that build strength and muscle, right. And this is really important the intensity and the execution, because if you're not doing it, right, it's not the other things aren't going to matter. And beyond your initial training phase of like your first few weeks, or maybe even the first few months, if you're on the weaker end, this is going to include free weights, like barbells, like dumbbells, combined with machines and cable machines, things like that as needed, you know, stuff that you would find in a gym. So not only does proper training build muscle mass, of course, which is one very important half of the body recomp equation. It also has three other benefits for body recomp that I want to reiterate today. All right, benefit number one, muscle tissue is metabolically very active, it's way more active than fat tissue, meaning it burns a ton of calories even at rest. And this increased muscle mass thus boosts your basal metabolic rate your metabolism, and so you burn more calories throughout the day. And that can aid in fat loss while you're maintaining or increasing muscle mass. So it's not a huge impact. I've talked about this before, maybe six to nine calories per pound of muscle mass that you add to your body. But even like an extra 50 calories a day, when we're talking recomp can make all the difference. Number two, the second benefit of muscle mass, and building muscle mass, when you're engaging in training, the strength training itself has a massive positive impact on your hormonal response. Because your hormones start to shift to facilitate the muscle growth and the fat metabolism all of it, it increases testosterone, it increases growth hormone. And both of those are vital for muscle synthesis, and for the breakdown of fat cells. So you get this two for one hormonal milieu is the French word they like to use of Perfect Storm toward building muscle and losing fat that gets accelerated just through the act of strength training. And then benefit number three, muscle mass is denser. So you can look lean and toned at a higher body weight, which tends mean even burn more calories and thus fat without needing to lose as much weight. So you can that's like another way to recomp kind of in a backdoor approach. Right? So you could just not have to lose as much weight. And so you can recomp in that way. Now we've established I think, why every single person listening to the show should be resistance training. If your goal is to improve your body composition and get a fantastic physique, period, bar none. If you listen, and you're a runner, and you don't strength train at all. And you reach out to me say I need some help with my nutrition, I'm going to say what's your training look like? And if you tell me, here's when I run, I'm going to say Well, where's the strength training and you say, I don't wanna say alright, come back to me, because you've got to be strength training, if you care about your physique, and your body composition, which all of this contributes as well to your health. This is why I love this so much. And I'm passionate about muscle mass and strength training because it helps everything. It makes everything easier, even yes, you're running. So let's continue and talk briefly about workout nutrition after I went on that long tangent, my recommendation here is that you simply want to book and your training. Alright, a little before a little bit after you've got flexibility in the amount of time you don't have to eat or drink in the middle of your workout unless you're starting it fasted potentially. But for the most part, you want to bookmark it with some easy digesting proteins and carbs. This is going to fuel your workout, it's going to kickstart your recovery after it's gonna help with muscle protein synthesis. So something like you know whey protein, quick carbs, like fruit, I love bananas, you know, rice cakes, I know. I know someone who loves you know, Rice Krispie treats I'm not huge on using ultra processed foods for a lot of this stuff, but hey, it can work and then you know, and that's like your pre workout then your post workout can have a little more variety, maybe even a little bit of fat in there. Only reason we don't want much fat pre workout isn't simply slows your digestion, which means you would just have to eat more protein and carbs or or you have more stomach, you know, digestive issues having more food in your stomach. So yeah, a little bit of fat after in your post workout. Like for me, it's oatmeal peanut butter, love it. And I would aim to split your protein evenly across your meals and get anywhere from like a third to two thirds of your carbs in the peri workout period, depending on how many carbs you're working with. So if you're in fat loss and you have less to work To quit, it may be a smaller percentage because or no, it actually may be a bigger percentage, because you have fewer calories, right, and you're trying to keep the amount of carbs around your workout roughly the same, whether you're in fat loss or not. So when you're in fat loss, you're basically siphoning most of those carbs around your workout, I've seen it to the point where like almost all your carbs around your workout, because the calories are fairly low. But that's also why we don't want the fats to be too high and take away from the carbs, or even the protein to be much higher than it needs to be to give you room for your carbs. So that was just my little thing on Perry workout nutrition, as far as just a general principle, but also in the context of body recomp to make sure everything is fueled properly for maximum results. Now, it's not just about calories and macros, we know there are a lot of other things here, nutritionally and otherwise. On the nutrition side, I think micro nutrition, I think hydration, electrolytes, they all impact our performance and body composition. And here, we're just going to stick to basic principles, focusing on whole nutrient dense foods 80% of the time, you can leave the other 10 to 20% for whatever you want for your indulgences so that you don't over restrict you don't feel deprived, always be drinking plenty of water and liquids, don't fear, you know, sodium, potassium, all of that. This is where I like fruits like bananas for your electrolytes, and especially around your training, because that's when you need it to support the fluid balance. And it helps with muscle contractions and avoiding cramping and things like that as well. So that's all I'm gonna say on micros and hydration, just the basics of mostly Whole Foods, a lot of variety of foods, don't put any foods off limits, and so on. And then beyond nutrition, you know, optimizing your health and hormone status is also important for recomp. Because, you know, recomp is, I don't want to put this like, because we're not going all out on a bulk or a cut. We want to play with some of these variables and make sure they're they're fine tuned a little more because the progress isn't as visible in the short term assay, then with the other approaches where the biofeedback signal tends to be more amplified. So if you know, if your sex hormones are out of whack testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, you're not gonna be able to gain muscle or lose fat effectively. And so biofeedback signals like low libido, for recovery, like stubborn fat retention, which I know that's kind of a subjective one, because we all gain and lose fat in different areas, some of us just happen to, you know, gain it in our stomach where we don't want it or again and I but where we do or don't want it. And I say that do or don't want it because but fat can be helpful to some people, all right, and you can get blood work as well, like a before and after. So here, like your lifestyle practices are all going to be dialed in, if you're going for body recomp. Besides the nutrition and the training, we've got stress management, we've got sufficient sleep, like all of these are going to support your hormones, especially sleep, I mean, I can't overestimate the value of sleep for your hormones. And then one other little one is alcohol. I mean, the less alcohol the better. It's going to be for your hormones as well. Ideally, no alcohol, but again, practicality lifestyle, I get it, you know, do what works for you, and see how you respond. Thyroid, specifically I want to call out the more I learned about the thyroid, the more I think it deserves its own category, because if your thyroid is under functioning, your metabolic rate will be slower. And it's gonna be harder to eat enough food and being where you need to be to change your body composition. And so I still think lifestyle for the most part is going to work for most people and most women, you know, because men are affected by thyroid as well thyroid conditions. But if you want to get your labs done proactively, if you suspect an issue, get your T three and T four checked, you know the ratio, but continue to focus on all these strategies, right calories carbs, not over restricting, getting into your key micros for thyroid health. That would be iodine, selenium, zinc, foods that contain those supplementation as needed, so that your thyroid produces the hormones and keeps your metabolic rate where it needs to be. Alright, so other aspects of biofeedback in general health would be your digestion, your circadian rhythm, right, like having a consistent daily routine and schedule for your sleep, your waking and sleeping cycle, but even your eating cycle, even your walking cycle, believe it or not, like your body starts to get used to these rhythms and tend to go in a more relaxed state when things are consistent, and thus keeping your metabolic rate higher and you can eat more food and recomp more easily. sleep and stress we already mentioned because they can affect your ability to lose fat and gain muscle. So you just got to audit your lifestyle see where you can upgrade your habits outside the gym. Everything works together synergistically. If you are for example, in our program, right, if you're lifting weights, physique university, you have a biofeedback tracker, and we can easily see on a week to week basis, what is going on relative to the other things and if you're struggling or if you hit a plateau or you know something's not going the direction you want. We can take all that data together, we can take your calories and macros your food intake, we can take your scale weight, we take your body measurements, and we can take your biofeedback and see where the patterns are. So and you can do the same thing for yourself. Fine Generally, don't underestimate the importance of mindset. I know, I often put it last on the list. For whatever reason, I think we just do this inherently. And yet mindset could be the first thing on the list for a lot of this. And for a lot of you listening, you know exactly what I mean. Like, you may know all this stuff I'm telling you today, you may know exactly what numbers to use for yourself, you may be doing many of these things. And yet the mindset comes in, in places like getting impatient or not being consistent or not trusting the process. So the antidote to those is be patient consistency, trusting the process, you know, you're training hard, you're eating in a slight deficit, let's say if you're doing the lose weight version of this, and maybe you're not seeing a huge drop in scale weight right away, because you shouldn't, you shouldn't. And yet, in your mind, you might be thinking, Oh, I'm trying to get this body comp, and also the scales not budging as much as I'd like. And it's easy to get discouraged. If you're only focused on the day to day or only on specific metrics, we need to collect all this stuff, but at the same time, not get hung up on any one number. On any short time horizon. Keep your eyes on that bigger picture. But while you're doing that, I do want you to celebrate small victories along the way. We just don't want to overemphasize victories and aren't really victories, like, Oh, my weight dropped a pound yesterday. I don't think that's really a victory. I don't, because I would never want to overreact to weight dropping or gaining in one day ever, I want to look at it over two or three weeks, over, let's say, three weeks, you can say, hey, the combination of things that I'm tracking shows me that I built a little muscle, I lost a little fat, here's why, you know, my waist size went down by half an inch, my biceps went up by half an inch, and my scale weight went down by you know, two pounds over the three week trend. Hey, you know, I'm pretty happy with all of that, that's pretty good. I'm headed in the right direction. That's cool. You know, like, we can definitely celebrate those things. But I would also celebrate the small victories on a daily basis, like the things you are doing, to me, those are the victories worth celebrating, I did this thing that I committed to doing. And because I did that thing, I know it's going to later on produce a result. And I know that it will be worth it. When I unveil that strong, lean, muscular physique that I've built through the process, the process. So go back to the quotes that I said earlier from our community, and their wins. And you saw that all of those wins. Were from this healthy and positive mindset of the process. Like I did this every day, I was consistent. I didn't have to deprive myself, it wasn't I lost X weight on the scale, right? We can still celebrate those results when they come. But if we focus on the day to day in the process, it's you're almost not going to care when the result happens, because it will have been happening the whole time. And you'll have been enjoying the process. So that's kind of the mindset piece of recomp, because it can be harder to see the result happening. Now that's also in some ways you can argue for some people, that's why you like to do more aggressive boxing cuts, because you can see some of the result based numbers changing faster. And for some of us, we want those wins, too. And that's okay, there's no right or wrong, there really isn't it too, because right now I'm rehabbing my shoulder again, occasionally, it gets a little wonky. Since I've had rotator cuff surgery, it happens, I've been assured that this is totally normal. And yet, I'm the type of guy that wants to push I want to grow, I want to keep going I want to improve. And it can be a little bit frustrating when I know I have to come out of my fat loss phase, I have to tone down my intensity tone down my volume workout fewer days a week. But I know that doing all those things will produce a result. So what do I take pleasure, and I take pleasure in the fact that my shoulder has more range of motion each day and is feeling less pain. And I know that that is a result based thing, but it's also process. It's showing me that every day that I put into doing these things, I'm getting what I want out of it. And even though I'm kind of at maintenance, let's call it I am getting a ton of winds every day as a result, that will set me up for going back into a more aggressive phase at some point from a healthier standpoint. So that's my little personal story there. Some final thoughts on body recomp body recomp is absolutely possible. It can be a highly effective approach for a lot of people to completely transform your physique it really can and for and or but for many individuals using more aggressive bulks and cuts will be the most time efficient way to achieve long term body recomp. But many of you might prefer this more casual approach that doesn't get too extreme in either direction. And guess what these choices are part of the flexibility and the sustainability in everything we do and talk about on this show and with our coaching approach and in our community and in which awaits physique University. This is the fun part about it. It's not sexy, it doesn't sell you know, 30 pound fat loss in three weeks, but it sells you a lifetime of joy because you can have such a flexible, individualized for you approach that Just is totally in sync with your life. And I know so many of you want that. And I strive on this show to show you how to do it practically and take actual steps. And it's not just lip service, right? And whichever way you want to go, right losing fat, building muscle, you know, quickly or simultaneously over the long term. Either way, doing all these practices, the right way is how you will achieve that lean, strong, athletic look you want. So the exact way it plays out is going to depend on your starting point. What do you have a lot of fat to lose, you're already lean, you want to focus on muscle gain, you're very well trained or you're, you know, just looking to etch in those final details in your physique and that symmetry, whatever the key principles are still the same train hard with sufficient intensity execution, volume progression, eat enough protein and carbs to support your muscle growth, while still achieving a modest, you know, fat loss either a deficit or in less of a surplus or at maintenance, optimize your Perry workout nutrition, or hydration, focus on nutritious Whole Foods, and pay attention to your health, your hormones, and your biofeedback not just your body composition because it all plays together synergistically. And this is where having an experienced coach or community to guide you through the process can make a huge difference. But regardless, I strive on the show to give you these blueprints to help you get started doing it on your own. You just have to be patient, consistent, keep showing up, keep putting in the work. And then your physique will transform before your eyes when you look back and you'll say Wow, look how far I've come. And that's it. That is what we do for body recomp. I hope this has been not only informative, but maybe a little bit eye opening. Given that there are so many ways there's so much flexibility in achieving recomp besides just maintenance, right and now you're inspired right you've got some ideas, you're ready to put these into action. And as I mentioned before, if you're interested in using macro factor to set up your body recomp phase without worrying about calculating your maintenance calories or your calorie macro targets. I'm giving you all a free video on how to set everything up in the app, screenshots and everything step by step. This video is from the macro factor mastery course in Whitson weights visit university but I'm giving you this video itself not the whole course. I'm giving you this video absolutely free no opt in no email, just click the link in my show notes for the free video on YouTube. It is unlisted, so you're not going to find it on my channel. It's it's exclusive to podcast listeners, you have to use the link in my show notes. You'll find it under episode resources. And go click it to get my free video on setting up macro factor for body recomp. Okay, in our next episode 167 optimizer thyroid. Hey, look at that perfect timing didn't plan it this way. Optimize your thyroid for hormone health metabolism and fat loss with Haley fountain. We're exploring thyroid health, which affects everything from your weight and your metabolism to your sleep and even your mental health. You'll learn how to manage your weight when you have a thyroid condition. The link between minerals and thyroid function and why exercise and nutrition are so important and what you should be doing, as well as how the mind body connection and sleep all play into thyroid health. So make sure to hit follow right now in your podcast app. Just pause before the episode finishes and deletes go hit follow go hit follow, and you'll get notified when that episode comes out. And you'll also be supporting the show. So as always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the wits and weights podcast.

Philip Pape 48:35

Philip Pape 4/19/24 Philip Pape 4/19/24

Ep 165: The Stealth Mind Trick to Turn Excuses Into ACTION with Paul Salter

Do you struggle with self-sabotage, procrastination, or perfectionism? Are you looking for practical tips to address emotional eating and stress-related behaviors?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) welcomes back Paul Salter, an expert in hypno-mindset and performance coaching. A mentor, a friend, and a fellow podcaster, Paul is back to dive deep into the power of the mind and share his expertise on self-sabotage, procrastination, or perfectionism, and how to uncover the roots of these behaviors. Paul also discusses the different faces of perfectionism and what fuels them. It’s time to understand your motivations and free yourself from unrealistic expectations.

Paul is a master at hacking the human psyche. Having helped everyone from elite athletes at the pinnacle of their sports to high-flying entrepreneurs and professionals across multiple fields, Paul has spent the last 15 years crafting his approach, which combines hypnosis, subconscious reprogramming, and mindset shift training. This approach is all aimed at one thing — helping you break free from the chains of self-sabotage, overcome mental roadblocks, and shatter the glass ceilings of limiting beliefs.

Paul is also a Registered Dietitian, Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist, and Certified Hypnotherapist, and he hosts The Unstuck Yourself podcast. You are going to love his insights on how to stop procrastination and perfectionism dead in their tracks so you can finally get unstuck in your health and fitness journey.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:54 Understanding the subconscious mind
9:32 Psychology and mechanisms of self-sabotage
12:51 Identifying and transforming sabotaging behaviors
21:55 Psychological triggers of procrastination
33:44 Perfectionism tendencies and childhood influences
38:58 Different types of perfectionism and overcoming them
44:14 Techniques to align desire and action against perfectionism
47:19 What is the core emotional home
50:18 The question Paul wished Philip had asked
51:26 Where to find Paul
51:50 Outro

Episode resources:

Episode summary:

Navigating the complex terrain of the subconscious mind is akin to embarking on an odyssey that promises to transform not just your habits, but the very fabric of your being. This episode with Paul Salter serves as a beacon, guiding us through the often-uncharted waters of our internal landscape.

Our journey begins with an exploration of the subconscious mind, an entity that dictates the vast majority of our daily choices yet remains largely obscured from our conscious awareness. Like the bulk of an iceberg hidden beneath the ocean's surface, the subconscious mind houses our deepest fears, desires, and the programming that shapes our lives. The realization that this part of us could be undermining our best efforts to succeed is both startling and enlightening.

Delving deeper, we encounter the phenomenon of emotional eating, a behavior that reveals the intricate connection between our emotions and our dietary choices. It becomes clear that what we often dismiss as a mere lack of willpower is, in fact, a complex tapestry woven from threads of emotional need and psychological response. Understanding this allows us to see self-sabotage not as a character flaw but as a learned behavior, a coping mechanism gone awry in the pursuit of emotional regulation.

But understanding is only half the battle. To effect change, we must confront the deceptive comfort of procrastination and the seductive excuses that accompany it. Here, Paul imparts a crucial distinction between interest and commitment. Are we merely intrigued by the idea of change, or are we truly dedicated to the transformative process it entails? By recognizing the true cost of our choices, we arm ourselves with the clarity needed to align our actions with our aspirations.

Perfectionism, with its myriad forms, presents another formidable obstacle. It is a relentless taskmaster, demanding the impossible and offering only dissatisfaction in return. Yet, as we peel back the layers of our perfectionist tendencies, we uncover their origins—moments in our past that shaped our need for flawless performance. Addressing these roots with compassion and understanding paves the way for a healthier relationship with ourselves and our goals.

The final leg of our expedition brings us face-to-face with the emotional underpinnings of our behavior. The podcast sheds light on the concept of an emotional home, the emotional bedrock from which our actions spring forth. Stress, we learn, is not the root but the amplifier of our deeper emotional state. Addressing the core wounds, therefore, is essential for genuine healing and progress.

The insights offered by Paul Salter in this podcast episode are more than mere words; they are tools for excavation and construction. By understanding the role of the subconscious in our lives, we begin to lay the groundwork for lasting success. We learn to recognize and disarm the mechanisms of self-sabotage, to reconcile the drive for perfection with the need for self-compassion, and to heal the emotional scars that hinder our growth.

For those seeking to master their mindset, this episode is not just a conversation; it is a call to action—a call to embark on the transformative journey toward the best version of oneself. As we step forth, equipped with newfound knowledge and strategies, we do so with the confidence that the path to mastery is within our grasp.

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Transcript

Paul Salter 00:00

We have to reframe mistakes as simply learning opportunities that can actually accelerate our growth. And then one of my favorite ways is to understand when, why and how this perfectionistic part of you came to be.

Philip Pape 00:16

Welcome to the wits end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The Whitson weights Podcast. Today I'm welcoming back to the show. My mentor friend fellow coach podcaster, Paul Salter. Paul was one of the earliest guests back on Episode 33, where we talked about sustainable weight loss, emotional awareness and the dieting mindset. Now invited him back to dive into mindset and rewiring your brain, which are his specialties as a hypno mindset and performance coach who has transformed the lives of over 2500 clients, you're going to learn how to turn your excuses your self sabotage your procrastination, and your perfectionism into massive action. By digging beneath the surface to the subconscious mind. Paul is a master at hacking the human psyche, having helped everyone from elite athletes at the pinnacle of their sports to high flying entrepreneurs and professionals across multiple fields. Paul has spent the last 15 years crafting his approach that combines hypnosis, subconscious reprogramming, and mindset shift training, all aimed at one thing, helping you break free from the chains of self sabotage, overcome mental roadblocks and shatter the glass ceilings of limiting beliefs. Paul is also a registered dietician, Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist and a certified hypnotherapist as well as host of The unstuck yourself podcast, you're going to love his insights on how to stop procrastination and perfectionism dead in their tracks. So you can finally get unstuck in your health and fitness journey. Paul, it is always a pleasure to see you and have you on the show.

Paul Salter 02:14

Dude, your intro just gets better and better. That was the best one I've ever heard. I sincerely thank you for that. And thanks for having me back, man. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah,

Philip Pape 02:23

man. And I think the listeners have heard us talk a few times on different podcasts. And you're kind of you know, we're reintroducing you here because it's been a while. And we really want to dig into the mindset stuff. I'm really curious as we get into it, about my kind of personal experiences with clients and others. And even myself with things like perfectionism, which I know is just is huge for those of us who, who are hustlers, you know, just like are always on always taking action. So, you know, we want to get into all these things. Why don't we start just at the top with the subconscious mind and understanding why that's important into, you know, as we get into the specific problems, the role in decision making the role in our choices and our behaviors. Yeah, so

Paul Salter 03:05

let me start with kind of painting the picture of like a foundation, which we can build off of the rest of our time together here. So the analogy I like to use that was first popularized by a doctor Sigmund Freud, who is kind of the pioneer of psychoanalysis is the iceberg analogy. And the iceberg analogy is a wonderful reference in comparison to how we can break down the difference between the conscious and the subconscious or the unconscious mind. So the way that this analogy works is quite simple. When we look at an iceberg, that tip of the iceberg, what we see above the surface, we can liken that to our conscious mind, which is where we are directly aware of our thoughts, our perceptions in that moment. But the truth is, we literally only see the tip of the iceberg about 90% of its structure, its foundational integrity is below the surface. And without the structural integrity of that iceberg, we wouldn't see that tip it would simply not exist. So we like in the part that is unseen of the iceberg to our subconscious mind, which is literally the foundation of who we are because it's within the subconscious mind that resides our emotions, our memories, our beliefs, our habits, our values, our creative power, problem solving skills, and intuition and collectively, that's who shapes who we are as a person that shapes our reality and our identity. And the one thing that so many of us walk around blind to is that yes, our conscious mind and our subconscious mind communicate, and yes, they want to work together. There's just a few challenges in our way first and foremost, there's a one way radio communication between the two meaning our subconscious mind is always communicating upward. If you guys are watching on video to our conscious mind, we can't yell down below to our subconscious mind and say, Hey, stop believing that stop feeling that Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. And then second, as I'm sure we'll get into more, our subconscious has one goal. It just wants to keep us safe. The only problem is, it's incredibly primal, it's irrational, and it's likely running some outdated programming that is no longer serving us in the present moment. And that is where the host of all of the challenges we face in every aspect of our life reside. So it's

Philip Pape 05:25

an interesting dichotomy, because for many years, I was of the mind, Paul, that, you know, you don't really have to understand the root causes of some of these emotions that you can move forward with action that you can process and you can kind of take things as they go day by day, and move forward. And like things like emotional eating, which are huge with those listening to this podcast, you know, you can either go back and understand the trauma, the emotion, whatever is causing that, or you can do some, you know, put in place tactics to kind of get around it and process. Are you saying that, that we have to understand that unconscious mind? Is there a middle ground, like, especially for left brain thinkers or rational thinkers who tend to think in terms of just like taking action, rather than dwelling on the past? What are your thoughts on that?

Paul Salter 06:10

I think they're complimentary. So when we talk about like the tactical X's and O's, you know, making smart decisions to set up an environment in the kitchen, for example, the pantry, the kitchen are filled with foods that are nutritious, delicious, and on par with how we want to feel, look and be, those are all wonderful. But more often than not, those who struggle with the emotional eating or the binge eating, find themselves going through periods of time where they are operating so deep on autopilot, it is almost as if an emotion has hijacked their operating system. So in the blink of an eye, they find themselves in the kitchen of sleeve of Oreos deeper, a bag of chips deep and all the sudden it's like, they wake up out of that trance, and like holy crap, what just happened, and they might have had all of the x's and o's taken care of, but every now and then there is still an emotion that hijacks their operating system. So doing some of that deep reflective work to understand what that emotion is, why it came to be, and why this learned behavior came about can really help them to not only uncover the origin of it, but ultimately give them the clarity and awareness, they need to unlearn and ultimately upgrade that behavior. And when

Philip Pape 07:22

you got into this business, you know, 15 years ago as a sustainable weight loss coach, what was your knowledge base back then, like, what were your thoughts about it, then let's, let's say the first couple years of your practice, because I imagine it takes a while to learn how important this is, and learn the skills to help people with it. Given that I'm like, maybe where you were 10 years ago? I'm just curious how that evolved over time and how early you discovered the power of, of what you're talking about?

Paul Salter 07:46

Well, first, I'm not gonna let you not give yourself the credit of your growth and awesomeness. As a coach, you are much further along than I was. But it's a wonderful question. I think very early on, you know, I have a background as a competitive bodybuilder and power lifter. Today, I joke I used to be married to my fitness pal. But I too, would struggle with bouts of binging and I knew what to do, you know, I was studying to become and ultimately became a dietitian. So I knew what to do. But I'm also a human being I had those moments where hunger, sadness, guilt, anger, frustration, stress got the best of me. And despite my knowledge, I kept running into the same problem over and over, it wasn't a lack of knowledge problem, there was something else underneath the surface. And a quick side note to further illustrate this, which will bring it all back together. Like, you know, I took a detour as a professional poker player for a little while. And, you know, I was a you know me very well, I'm a relentless study, or I love to learn, but I started to recognize as I played for bigger stakes with more money on the table, despite the amount of studying I was doing this, despite the coaching I was getting, I was still freezing on the spot not performing well, under pressure, I knew what to do. Logically, mathematically, I could check all these boxes. But in the moment, I wasn't doing it. So if we now go back in time to in the moment of when you're one of your listeners, or myself or even you on occasion, are in the moment with that ice cream, those Oreos faced with an opportunity to make a nutritious decision or a not so good decision, something else is going on that operates from an unconscious autopilot standpoint that we need to get to the crux of and as I started learning, that all the information I was gleaning was not helping, I knew I needed to take a different approach.

Philip Pape 09:30

So that makes sense. Because you know, you can put in place all of the tactics, all of the barriers for yourself. You can, you know, put the bowl of fruit on the table and put the cookies away in the drawer. And still somehow your mind is going to lead you via these protective mechanisms. You call them protective or you know primal, what exactly is happening and then we can get into details of self sabotage as the next topic. What exactly is happening mechanistically or physiological or however you want to call it And that is causing us to make what others would see as irrational, maybe irrational choices.

Paul Salter 10:05

Yes. So let's use this kind of operate under the theme or the lens of emotional eating, you know, we are most prone to emotional eating when we're in a very charged state. And that emotion differs for everybody could be stress, it could even be boredom and everything in between, from anger, to sadness, to resentment and guilt. So that food is a way to soothe or cope to help regulate our nervous system, the emotion that we are experiencing has caused such a disruption and dysregulation that we in this individual speak instance, rather, I'll speak collectively, it's like we're lacking the skills to regulate our emotions in that moment. And what happens is these patterns are learned behaviors, to help either soothe or to meet a need that has gone unfulfilled for a long period of time. So there's so many layers to emotional eating and binge eating, but one of them could be through the lens of literally protecting you from attention from being seen unwanted attention, this eating could be a way of belonging, if your parents, your social circle, if they are all overweight and unhealthy. And you start making strides away to that, from that to live a healthier lifestyle, you know, emotionally, these behaviors are deployed to keep you in your comfort zone of predictability and familiarity, because that's what keeps you safe. And that is literally the cycle this kept our entire species alive for however long we have been in existence.

Philip Pape 11:30

I keep having tangent questions off of this because I'm curious, if someone were to go through a process of self discovery, let's, let's say emotional intelligence and self awareness, training, how much would that benefit, resolving some of these issues in and of itself, if that makes sense? I think

Paul Salter 11:49

it's a wonderful start in the right direction. And to be honest, it might be five or six steps in the right direction, depending on where that person's baseline of emotional intelligence and awareness is. I think awareness is phenomenal. And the most valuable piece of awareness is awareness of yourself, your past how everything is connected to who you are in this present moment. But at a certain point, awareness will only get you so far, action is absolutely necessary. And of course, like we talked about, the tactical X's and O's are great to help reinforce some of this newfound awareness. But at a certain point, you know, the old cliche with every new level, there's a new devil, we're going to have to dig a little deeper to get out of our own way. I

Philip Pape 12:29

can buy into that man actions. You know, people talk about motivation all the time, I think I just had one of my quick wits episodes about the idea of just the action leads to the motivation because you get the win. But sometimes there's a disconnect where you take the wrong action, or you take an action and doesn't give you the win, or what have you. But anyway, I want to get into some specific areas that hold people back, we wanted to talk about self sabotage being one of them, which I guess all of this is a form of self sabotage, even the procrastination and perfectionism. So, you know, what's the psychology behind that? Specifically? And then how can we identify, you know, behaviors and the actions that we might take to change?

Paul Salter 13:07

Yeah, so let's start with kind of a working foundational definition. So self sabotage is a deliberate, intentional act of belittling or holding back you from your own success. And it is literally a deliberate form of sabotage. Because at your core, you know, it is not in alignment with who you want to be or what you want to achieve. And the way that I like to break down self sabotage is in kind of two, two different ways. First and foremost is recognizing that it happens both consciously and unconsciously. And what I mean by that is, we all have had a similar moment where we walk into the kitchen, nine o'clock at night, it's been a long day, you know better than I do, maybe it's a tough night, getting the kids down for bed, you're exhausted from the office, and all of a sudden, you reach a fork in the road where you open your freezer door, and you make eye contact with Ben and Jerry. And it's like, okay, I I'm doing it, screw it. Let's go all in, I'm having the ice cream. That's a conscious example of self sabotage, you deliberately chose to go against your goals. But the other form kind of happens in the background. It's through those periods of stillness, quiet reflection, where we reflect back on the last three months or three years, and we start to identify the pattern of credit card debt, the pattern of toxic relationship hopping, so that's when the unconscious is made conscious. So I always like to point that out because sometimes it's very obvious where we're sabotaging. Other times, it's kind of an insightful moment that comes together through a moment of quiet clarity. But even more nuanced. We have what I like to refer to as capital S, self sabotage, and lowercase s so the capital S are the big obvious ones. They are the binge eating the gambling, the addiction, the numbing and the scrolling, the infidelity, anything where it's a behavior that any culture any person in the world is going to look at and be like, Yeah, no shit, you're clearly getting in your own way. Whereas Conversely, the lower case sabotaging behaviors are the things that on their own might not stand out as significant, but they accumulate to pack a massive punch. So that's hitting the snooze button, missing workout, skipping meal prep grazing throughout the day, a few extra minutes Mindlessly scrolling here and there that the small behaviors, that when we take a step back, we recognize not the best use of my time, not clearly in alignment with how I want to feel. So all of these behaviors are taking place, we're all guilty of one or multiple of them. And they are all rooted in one single goal. And that is to simply keep you safe. Because they typically become more pronounced as you start making progress toward a goal as you start leveling up experiencing more success, you know, in the health and fitness industry and your romantic relationships financially or professionally, they are behaviors deployed by your subconscious to keep you safe to bring you back down to a level of familiarity and comfort, which is where your subconscious knows you can and have survived. For

Philip Pape 16:05

sure, man, the hitting the snooze, I did that for years, and I can understand why it becomes a comfortable thing, right, it becomes a habit becomes a way to kind of to bury yourself back into the bed. And I I think about the from the moment someone wakes up to the rest of their day, they're making a million choices. I mean, it'd be interesting to know how many 1000s of choices we make in a day. But some of what you're saying is so many of those are either unconscious or learned or we've lost the consciousness of it, so to speak, right, because it's just become rote. And then there's big ones and small ones. So whereas choice and willpower fit into this, because I don't want people to realize there's a sense of empowerment, but there's also something we need to learn about ourselves and grasp onto to then gain empowerment. So where does choice and willpower fit into this,

Paul Salter 16:50

through intentional opportunity to slow down, you know, we all want to do in a million things and achieve so much yesterday. But if we continue to operate from this Go, go go becoming human doings rather than human beings, we miss out on the opportunity to connect with our subconscious. So you know, as you alluded to hypnosis is one of my primary change modalities and like the beauty independent of some of the other science aspects of hypnosis, it's just the fact that you get to enter a state of deep relaxation. And when we do that, rather, whether it's meditation, some people it's exercise, its yoga, its journaling its breath, or whatever your quiet time version looks like. That gives you a chance to what I like to call, turn off the noise of the nonsense negativity that exists in everyday life, and gives you a chance to connect with who you are at your core. And that's what brings back the opportunity to intentionally choose and the more you can schedule, micro moments throughout your day to set an intention for this meal, this workout, this work meeting this time with my kids, this time with my spouse, that intentionality is incredibly powerful and helps you remain in the driver's seat of your life.

Philip Pape 18:03

I love having these discussions, Paul, because I'm always reminded just for myself to take a break because you know how I go. And it's funny, because I'm kind of in a fat loss phase now. And one thing I committed to do is just get more steps, right? Just walk around. I like to do that via things that I enjoy. But sometimes I realize the day is getting away from me, where am I scheduling in that, that moment, so people listening, take that to heart, the idea that a lot of this is just the space, the relaxation, the grace, whatever word you want to us, that gives you the ability to get this consciousness, because otherwise you're just on autopilot, you're just going through the motions, right? And many of us get tired as the day goes on. And by the time I mean I people can probably identify this, it's eight 910 o'clock. And here's his own dial at that point, you're just done. Like, you're not even in bed yet. You're just done. Here's

Paul Salter 18:54

something interesting to like, researchers will estimate that we have about 60 to 70,000 thoughts per day, roughly 90% of them are negative. Because our subconscious is constantly scanning our environment to keep us alive. And roughly 80% of them are the same exact thoughts we had yesterday. So if you don't take and make the time to slow down and consciously change, you're not going to change. Wow.

Philip Pape 19:23

Yeah, that's, that's sobering. So, but there's a positive to all this. We're gonna look at it. We're gonna lay that on thick here. I did want to ask one more thing. What is it that people rationalize the most in your experience? Just not not just nutrition and what we're talking about here, but in general, you mentioned the big ask the little is like what are the top of the list so people could say, oh, yeah, I do that. Well,

Paul Salter 19:43

I think what I've found in all walks of life that I work with is people are so quick test to downplay the significance of all of those little s behaviors. Oh, the snooze button is not affecting me. Oh, it's it's just one time. It's just one time is perhaps the most popular rationalization justification I hear, and then you know this well with the clients, you work anytime we force people to put pen to paper and maybe start logging those one times, and we can reflect back and then it's the oh shit moment like, Oh, when I do hit the snooze or Oh, when I skipped the gym, it was actually three times last week and 16 times last month like it adds up. So just the just the one time to downplay the significance of any one of those smaller behaviors is what I find people struggle with most. And we have to really help them bring awareness to how significant the accumulation of this little s sabotaging moment can be. How

Philip Pape 20:36

did they get over that first hump? What of the rationalizing the need to track and decide and do it exactly what you're doing? In other words, the chicken and egg of they're not even feel like they're in a place to do that. What's, what's your strategy there?

Paul Salter 20:50

I like to ask the simple question, how is your life different? So I usually take two frameworks with this, I may say just Just close your eyes for a second and just watch your life unfold for the next 30 days paying attention to your productivity, your relationships with yourself, your significant other your children, like if you continue on this path of skipping workouts, let's just go with that example. Like, what's your life look like? More importantly, what does it feel like? And then contrast that with the same question. But we eliminate that little less sabotaging behavior? What's the big stark difference that we're able to not only see tangibly, but also feel in our body? Because we know logically Oh, yeah, I'm probably going to feel better if I don't miss this, or I miss it far, often. But when we can literally begin to feel it in our body, the experiential factor of that is far more powerful than just kind of like, oh, logically. Sure that sounds great.

Philip Pape 21:40

Yeah, that's a great technique. We talk about identity all the time and visualizing your future self. But what you just said is, give it that contrast of what you're going to be now as you're living, versus what you would be with the difference. So I love that. So one of the things that ties into this is just not getting that first step done. That's just procrastinating as a form of self sabotage, right? So there are psychological triggers for all these different little subsets. So we're going to talk about what's specific to procrastination. What does that kind of archetype look like? Why do people procrastinate? You know all the things.

Paul Salter 22:15

At its core, procrastination is typically a fear of failure. Now, there's many more layers, of course, and the one thing I always like to point out here is, it's kind of to two important points to set the stage for this discussion. Number one, we are all biologically wired to want a need to belong, to feel accepted, to feel connected to feel unconditional love. And that's simply because we're a tribal species. And that's how our species survived all these years. On the other end of that we are all also hardwired to have three core fears, the fear of judgment, the fear of abandonment, and the fear of rejection. Simply put, in the past, if we were judged if we were abandoned, or if we were rejected, we were ostracized or ostracized from our tribe, and we either starve to death or were eaten by a saber toothed Tiger. As silly as it sounds today, that is still the same primal operating system that your subconscious is running on. And it's important to bring that out because sometimes our procrastination is very quick for us say, Oh, I'm just lazy. And we adopt this label that doesn't serve us. But procrastination is typically fear of failure, which we then trace back one step further to one of those core fears. I call it the fear jar. Usually, if we are afraid of failure, it's because we're afraid of being rejected. And now it typically works two ways that fate fear of rejection can come from fear of success. Because if we use the example, all of our family members and friends are overweight and unhealthy, and we want to make a change, well, we're literally going to be ostracized from our tribe, if we stopped engaging in happy hour three times a week in favor of the gym and hanging out with other people or doing healthier things. And then in terms of failure, the same thing, we don't want to let those people we care about down because then we might be judged, rejected or abandoned. So this procrastination is rooted in fear of failure. And what I have found is and we can get really clear on the core, the origin of where this fear comes from what we're afraid of, and start talking about it logically, rationally, making it tangible. It's far easier to understand to let go of and to overcome.

Philip Pape 24:21

Maybe this is a good time to bring up one of the questions from my community that's related to that because I hear this all the time. You know, somebody says, I'm still procrastinating and making excuses right there at labeling, right? I'm consistent with X but I really want to do why like it might be I go to the gym twice a week, but I really want to go three, but I'm not sure I'm ready. That's that's the label that I have from one of my community members. When I asked for them, like what are their fears? Where are their excuses and things like that? Let's try that. Let's let's go with that concrete example. Right? Someone says to you, you know, I just I want to work out more I don't go to the gym enough. Why am I doing that? What would what would you do next?

Paul Salter 24:59

I would simply We ask, Are you committed? Or are you interested? Because there is a stark difference between the two. And I think it's important to note to speak to that saying it's okay, if you acknowledge you're just interested, you just have to then accept the cost of what it means to be interested versus committed, because it's a different way of being operating, speaking, believing and showing up. When we are committed, we acknowledge that we are scared of XY and Z. And it's totally normal and okay to be scared, but we can't remain stuck there in a state of inaction. So someone who is saying, I want this, it's a very candid, are you committed to this? Are you just kind of interested? Because that sounds nice. And again, there's no wrong answer. But the clarity in that answer will reveal a lot. And if they truly say they're committed, well, then it's an opportunity to push to dig deep. What is that resistance? What are you really afraid of? And you know, this, you're very good at this as a coach, it's more questions it's pushing, it's pushing and getting underneath the surface. One of my favorite questions to ask when people start describing how something feels or what they're scared of, I just simply ask, what's the emotion underneath that? horses in the dig a little more, you know, it turns to fear. I'm afraid of this, I'm afraid of this. And all the sudden you get some emotionally charged answer, I'm afraid my husband will leave me and I'll have to be a single mom, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, Oh, shit. Now we got to the core of what you're afraid of turns out, my mom was a single mom, I don't want to fall into that category. My life was hard, her life was hard. And now you get the juiciness of it. And we start to get to have the chance to do some healing work there that no longer are they afraid of that we reduce the emotional charge of some of their past moments and memory, so that we can use that newfound energy to actually put towards the behavior change that they're trying to accomplish.

Philip Pape 26:40

Okay, so I have two follow up. So that one is can people do this themselves? Because obviously, you're a mindset coach and use hypnosis and other techniques. Can people do this for themselves? What would be a good exercise for it? And the other is, I'm curious, in the general population that you talk to how many people are able to resolve that one or two levels deep versus really having to go deep? If that makes any sense? Yes.

Paul Salter 27:04

So for the first part, like can people do this on their own? It's the same answer that's applicable across all domains? Yes. Is it likely harder? Yes, will definitely take longer Absolutely. Like one of my go to sayings is the biggest way to accelerate results is to ask for help. So yes, you can do it on your own, it would, I would say are the kind of the prerequisites with a foundation of consistency being essential and implied is, you have some type of reflective practice. I don't care if you call it journaling, meditation, a general overarching quiet time. And then you have prompts and questions. And that's maybe where you're outsourcing to get some of those prompts and questions to dig deep therapy, coaching, all of these modalities are ways to accelerate your results, though, even further than the second question, How deep do you have to go, it's incredibly dependent on the person, you know, is so dependent on their upbringing, and what the challenges at hand that they're working on overcoming but typically, the deeper you can go, the faster the results will be if you're willing to surrender and be open minded enough to go there.

28:12

My name is Tony, I'm a strength lift or my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Whitson weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that and he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him, and we'll help you out. Thanks.

Philip Pape 28:56

Okay, and you mentioned the three fears of judgment, abandonment and rejection. Where does fear of uncertainty come in

Paul Salter 29:05

to that? So like fear of the unknown in a way? Yeah, fear of the unknown. So typically, what I've found is that can ultimately be traced back to a fear of judgment. Because if I don't know what's going to happen, maybe I'm going to make the wrong decision. I could be judged for that decision. I could be judged or made to look like a failure because I responded to XY and Z way instead of a, b and c way based on the unknown that was at my fingertips.

Philip Pape 29:28

Okay. Yeah. Just curious, because that's a big one that I face all the time is people don't want to change mainly because they're comfortable. They think they're comfortable with where they are now versus the discomfort of the change.

Paul Salter 29:42

And I think that's a great point. Let me share one thing I literally had a call this morning with a gentleman who was to be frank fucking terrified to dig into some of his past because like, I don't know what's going to come up and like, admittedly and we could speak candidly about it. He had a very challenging childhood a very deep Call it past and like the thought of reliving some of that was incredibly scary to him, it made him uncomfortable. It made him anxious. And I think it's important to normalize that it's very normal. And that's why going at it alone can prove to be even more challenging. And if you do decide to go out at with the coach and a professional, you know, they absolutely need to foster a safe space, you need to feel safe there, and sharing and going through some of those difficult times. Because even though just like you mentioned, there's difficulty discomfort, and in some of those hard emotions, the freedom, the peace, the fulfillment, the power, the strength and energy on the other side are just fucking indescribably awesome. Absolutely

Philip Pape 30:44

love what you said before about just envisioning where you're going to be once you make that change is a powerful, powerful technique for that one more thing related to procrastination is procrastinating on the changes that you have now committed to let's say, you are committed, and you know what you want to do. And maybe you've dug dug into the your past and you've done the reflective exercises. And now it's more maybe this is more habit theory, right, which we always we touch on all the time of how do you actually get this new behavior to stick, knowing that all those other things are checked off. So something

Paul Salter 31:16

that's very common in my clients that I work with is, you know, maybe we uncover and we overcome a big mental block, for example. And that immediately infuses a sense of ease. So for the next couple of weeks, that new behavior, we're able to grease that groove a little smoother, it feels like it's more efficient and effective. But inevitably, we hit a new point of resistance, there's always an underlying emotion that is still preventing you from normalizing or locking in that behavior to ultimately upgrading as a habit. So what I find is, you know, like, you know, that's why as you know, like, I usually meet with my clients every three to four weeks. And, you know, I always dig into like, what, okay, when it didn't go, well, for example, what did it feel like and what and then we can still go back? Okay, maybe there actually is more work to be done on that anxiety Domino, Domino, that people pleasing Domino, that fear of failure Domino, it's likely that you just need to keep hitting that one primary challenge from a couple of different angles before that behavior officially sticks as a habit.

Philip Pape 32:16

Yeah, that's a good one. Because people will people often get unlocked, like you said, They'll grease the wheels or start making progress. And then they hit a wall, right? He hit a wall, maybe it's a fear of the next. It's all the same fears that are just re materialized and add a new level. One other thing came up there procrastination, what is Oh, when people are depending on other so let's say spouses, that's a great example, or families where the husband or wife wants to make a change, and the other spouse is supportive. But let's say there's a how do I want to put it, there's like a fixed situation that I guess can't be changed in the moment. Like, let's say one spouse has shift work. And they just, you know, they need to go to bed at a certain time. That just doesn't quite jive with the other person's timing. And the other person's trying to get more sleep. You know, what I mean? Like, how do we do just try to get creative and come up with alternate compromises and solutions? Or what are your thoughts there? Yeah,

Paul Salter 33:06

I think at that point, it comes down to communication. And it's really having that input. It's having open, honest, uncomfortable conversations with your spouse in that situation. And perhaps to that's a wonderful opportunity to bring in a third party simply to get another set of eyeballs, ears and a brain to help facilitate creative solutions. Because the chances are in that particular scenario you shared to sleep deprived individuals who are butting heads trying to find common ground are not the two best individuals to create the best solution. So a third party could be wonderful in that situation. Fair

Philip Pape 33:40

point, fair point. Yeah. Just let it cover all the bases here. All right, then we get to my favorite, which is perfectionism. So I did a very short podcast episode a few months ago, about four, four icons, archetypes of perfectionism. And I don't remember what they were ahead of in my notes, but they were intended to help people identify what kind of perfectionist they identified themselves with, to maybe take an action and I guess I'm the type of perfectionist, and that's a label. Who, it's not that it has to be perfect. It's just that I want to, you know, I want to make the right choice to move forward. Not that it's perfect, but I want to make sure it's right. Well, I guess that is perfect. You know, what? Anyway, tell us about perfectionism as a barrier to to success, right? Especially for people who are oftentimes using that perfectionism in a positive way I'll say like that just their general you know, get it done. They they move forward, they they try to make things have a high quality, but sometimes it then holds them back because they don't move forward and they get stuck. Yeah,

Paul Salter 34:43

yeah, so perfectionism is a really unique entity and Beast I'm I'm actually pulling up my notes. I want to find a cool quote, but I'll keep speaking on it for now. Oh, here here's one actually says by Brene Brown. So just to kind of paint the picture or foundation rather for perfectionism. Brene Brown, best selling author of a million freaking books, a really good thought leader says perfectionism is a self destructive and addictive belief system that fuels this primary thought. If I look perfect and do everything perfectly, I can avoid or minimize the painful feelings of shame, judgment and blame. Now, remind me, Philip are How many siblings do you have?

Philip Pape 35:24

I have one.

Paul Salter 35:25

And Are you the oldest? Yes. Yeah. Okay, so the good news of the bad news for everybody listening, so if you are the oldest, or if you are, if you have siblings, you are more prone to perfectionistic tendencies. But if you're the oldest, I have found in research a degree you are likely most prone to these tendencies. And perfectionism is all rooted in how well your core childhood needs were fulfilled. So we talked about the acceptance, the belonging, the connection, but as a child were you heard are you seeing are you validated, as soon as baby number two comes, the amount of attention and time you get from mom and dad is instantly split, the more siblings you have, the more of their limited bandwidth, they have to divide amongst others. So given that we are hardwired with all of these coordinates, and these are really human needs, but they're much more pronounced when we're children, because we literally can't fend for take care of ourselves. So when we have to compete for that limited time and attention, our subconscious gets creative, it starts to develop patterns of behavior to help us get more of what we need. So one common example I like to give that definitely rings true with me, between the ages of nine and 10, I was a frequent wild child, I was always in trouble at school. And if you reflect back, I was the oldest of three at that point with another one on the way. So I was just lashing out for attention. And although you look back and you're like, Okay, you were the little Elementary School troublemaker. That behavior pattern got me what was missing in my life, I got the attention. Now it wasn't the best attention or what I really wanted or needed, no. But the point being is that we're going to develop these patterns to get what we need. So with perfectionism, you know, at some point early on in your childhood, maybe you got a good grade on an exam, a test a project, a good report card, you did well, in sports you did well, in extracurriculars, you got a nugget of praise from mom and dad that was so inconsistent, you latched on to it, your subconscious learns, okay, if I continue to perform in this way, I can replicate this feeling. And I'm going to do it over and over again. So one silly example I'll share with you is I'm a big math nerd. So I know you'll appreciate this, but I played this game in elementary school called challenge 24. Never heard of it. No, I haven't. Okay, so it's a card game, where essentially, there's like four, six of you who play at once there's a proctor who puts a card in the middle of you, there's four numbers on it, you got to put your finger in the middle of the card, the first one there gets a chance to solve the problem. All you have to do is use all four numbers to get the number 24. I got real into it. I used to play all the time and practice and whatnot. I won a couple tournaments and then I can distinctly remember to this day that when I did not win a tournament, there was just kind of a nonchalant response from my parents. It was like immediate disappointment. I felt shame. So what did I do? I woke up before elementary school every day for the next couple of months and went through the deck. I essentially memorized the whole deck never lost a tournament again, because I wanted that validation and praise from mom and dad.

Philip Pape 38:34

Okay, so there's sounds like there's different types of perfectionism here, right? Because what you're describing is you didn't have a need fulfilled, so you compensated for it. I feel like there's another type to where you just have unreasonably high standards for everything that you might place on yourself. There's also the perfectionism where everything has to be perfect before you move to the next step. I don't know where I'm taking all this, Paul. But I guess for the listeners who are struggling with perfectionism, or can we break it into like, a few different types, then what what would we do for that type? Yeah, so

Paul Salter 39:09

there's typically three types. So number one would be self oriented perfectionism, where we demand perfection of ourselves. That's the unrealistic high expectation that creates a false sense of pressure and urgency to be flawless in our execution. The second type is going to be other oriented This is where you demand perfection from others. This is where you are incredibly critical. And hard on those you work with your spouse, your children, you can be a real bear or pain in the ass to work with to be with and then reflecting back on ourselves. Again, that third category is typically known as socially prescribed perfectionism, and this is when we feel pressure from others to be perfect. This is when we start kind of involving these people pleasing tendencies so that we come across as perfect so that we are liked we feel like we belong where accepted, loved and connected, which goes back into one of those core needs we referenced earlier.

Philip Pape 40:04

Okay, so what do we do about it? What do we do about perfectionism? Yeah. Because again, we want to avoid labels. But we want to identify where we fall and what what we can do about it.

Paul Salter 40:16

Yeah. So we have to first examine your relationship with imperfection. Like, how do you feel when you use this loosely make a mistake? How do you feel when something isn't perfect, and it's a reframe of that relationship to a give yourself permission to make mistakes and to be imperfect. And it is then be creating a sense of safety and making mistakes. You know, the truth is, depending on your upbringing, when you made a mistake, didn't get straight A's struck out on the baseball field, it's possible your parents were so incredibly hard of you, you became scared to make a mistake, the only way to feel connected was to be flawless and perfect. So we have to start giving ourselves grace and letting go giving ourselves permission to be less than perfect. We have to reframe mistakes as simply learning opportunities that can actually accelerate our growth. And then one of my favorite ways is to understand when, why and how this perfectionistic part of you came to be. So I can share this with you after I actually just published a newsletter yesterday, today all about understanding when, where and how this perfectionistic part of you came to be. And there's a few journal prompts at the end there. But it's really as simple as finding that quiet time again, and reflecting back to some of your earliest memories where you felt compelled to be perfect to perform without any mistakes, and just really understanding what was going on in your life at that time. What was that eight year old boy going through? What was he missing in his life? And how can you begin to fill in some of the missing pieces for him the love the connection, the belonging, to help ease the burden of that little boy, which has a wonderful present day healing effect as well. Yeah,

Philip Pape 42:01

that makes a lot of sense. And when we look at the like nutrition, for example, a very common situation is the all or nothing approach the trying to be perfect. And part maybe part of the conflict comes from the fact that when someone is going after a goal, whether they're an athlete, physique, competitor, whatever it might be, you know, there are parameters, and there are like cause and effect as part of that process. And so you're taking action to create a cause and effect. And when you don't do it, quote, unquote, perfectly, the effect is going to go off the path you intend, right? Just like with anything in life. So where do we reconcile the need for consistency, and the need to give ourselves grace when we're not, quote unquote, perfect? Because we don't need to be perfect. Let's just put it out there. Versus perfection? Because I think some people even see consistency as a form of perfection, it makes any sense.

Paul Salter 42:54

It does, and without bringing in too much spiritual woowoo, to answer that question, you know, at the end of the day, it's just recognizing that every decision and outcome is just is. And you have the power to control how you respond, because you're always in control of your effort, your attitude and your actions. So these pivots, these unexpected changes in direction course are pathways to get where you want to be. They happen to teach you something to remind you something to give you another chance to learn a lesson you might have, you should have been able to learn maybe many moons ago. So when we wrestle with the idea of consistency, giving myself grace, we should always give ourselves grace and compassion. And always trust to be true that we're doing the best we can. We're not literally trying to get in our own way on a conscious level every single day, we don't wake up and think how can I screw up my goals today? It does happen unconsciously. And we have those micro moments of little less sabotage, but the end of the day, like it's just an opportunity to learn. And the more we can really lean into that the more we experience a lightness, a lessening of the pressure that we constantly put on ourselves or have other people put upon us.

Philip Pape 44:13

I like how you said that we we have this volition, this freewill, this ability to control what you said effort, attitudes, and actions, right? We always have the choice, even though from what we were talking about earlier, the context could be there are many unconscious choices. Again, I want to make sure to use the right word if we're making choices or not even if they're unconscious, where they can coexist. And it's almost like we're trying to get the higher and higher you know, the iceberg to become higher above the water in a way. Yeah, so that our effort, actions and attitudes predominate. What we're doing and what the outcome is, does that make sense? It does

Paul Salter 44:52

and to build off of your iceberg mentioned there, we want to create what's known as mindset congruency. We want your conscious mind and your unconscious mind on the Same page, because when they are on different pages, the unconscious mind always wins. And what I mean by that is like, if you are just trapped in a scarcity mindset, you grew up, money is tight, rich people are evil, money doesn't grow on trees. But here you are, you know, all of that gets embedded into your subconscious. But if you're here consciously, I want a million dollars tomorrow, I'm worthy this that the other there's a clear disconnect or contrast and incongruency between the two, and your unconscious is always going to win. So you're always going to default back to that scarcity mindset unless you dig in and do that deep work necessary to heal some of those money rooted wounds. So we have to create congruence see. And that's why there's just so much power and reflective work slowing down to really give you yourself a chance to slow down to connect with your subconscious and start rewiring some of those beliefs patterns that exist. I

Philip Pape 45:56

knew you'd have a name for it. So that's good mindset congruence. See, but also I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of, what do you call it? Seesaw, right? Where are a balance where on one hand, you have this friction, this this big sense of friction, that's created by the lack of awareness of the unconscious, and on the other side, you have your action in your intention, right. And we're just trying to lighten that load over there. So you don't need as much, you know, force or willpower, or whatever it takes to move it in the right direction. That kind of comes to mind. Yeah. And

Paul Salter 46:28

that's the beauty to like one of the kind of the under the surface, or under the radar rather benefits of like hypnosis, and some of this deep work is when you heal some of these emotionally charged core wounds, you know, you get the benefit of all that healing. But what happens is all of the negative emotions that we're prone to holding on to you know, guilt, grief, anger, resentment, sadness from areas of our life, those are very energetically expensive emotions. So when you do the necessary healing work, you free up all this energy all the sudden, and you and I both know, forming a habit is incredibly energetically expensive. But with this new energy, all these behaviors that we've struggled to try to change suddenly become easier because we have so much more energy, which is a phenomenal place to be.

Philip Pape 47:12

Yeah, so not only have you reduce the friction, you've transferred that energy to the other side of the ledger. Beautiful, yes. Okay, so to wrap up here, I want to touch on dieting, or touch on nutrition training, you know, Fitness, Health, all of that in a couple areas. So I guess two things come to mind. One is from our community, one of the other struggles or challenges someone mentioned was with emotional eating, tied to stress when their life is such that there are so many stressors on them, you know, that are, quote unquote, not in their control. But but we can talk about that. Like, like they have a child and their child has poor health, and they're dealing with that, you know, a busy mom who's taking care of their whole family, and everyone's dependent on them. And then they're not, quote unquote, able to commit fully even though they're in their mind deeply wanting to commit. Yeah, like, what are your thoughts on that?

Paul Salter 48:03

So I want to give credit where credit's due Ed, my let popularize this concept. This is mine, but it's known as like your emotional home, we all have these foundational emotions that are home to us, we come back to they might be confidence, joy and love. But we also likely are filled with grief, sadness, negativity, the world is out to get me. So we operate with these core emotions that essentially facilitate how we behave. And if emotional eating is how one of these behaviors manifests. Stress is a conductor, stress just amplifies the ease in which we can behave in that negative and counterproductive way. So when you think of like stress, stress is never the core emotion. Stress is a byproduct of life, stress is good. It can be counterproductive, depending on your response to it. But stress is is amplifying the core wounds. So you have to get to the core wound. And not just think of all the surface level stress management strategies. Like I like to say like, you know, when you attack the surface level, it's like putting a band aid over a bullet wound is a short term solution, it doesn't stop the bleeding. And it's not a long term fix. So stress is kind of that middle road. It's what we see. It's what we feel. So it's logical to go to what we see and feel and try to solve the problem there. But it's not the core or the origin of that problem. We have to go deeper and understand where when and how this part of you that is sabotaging yourself came to be what is the emotion in there that is connected to it?

Philip Pape 49:29

Yeah, that makes sense. Like so many things, there's often a root cause the symptom may not be indicative of it. And if you just put a bandaid on the symptom, it could give you some, you know, minor temporary relief, which then may slow you down from fixing the root cause, you know, so we gotta go right to it. We see it all the

Paul Salter 49:44

time with people they do a diet it works for three to four weeks and then it's but it's it never fixes the core issue of their binging their emotional eating, so they have some success. Oh, this approach doesn't work for me. They try another bandaid. It works for a month they revert back to their old way and they try another and 20 years go by, and they're still having the same conversations and frustrations.

Philip Pape 50:03

Yeah, I just tell people just eat more food and build muscle. And don't worry about it, you know? All right. Is there anything else you wanted to cover in these? Because these are these can be some very big deep topics that could each be its own episode as they are on your podcast on a regular basis. So is there anything else you wanted? That you wish I had asked or any other topic I wanted to cover? Yeah,

Paul Salter 50:22

I think one question that I often get asked is like, who needs mindset and performance coaching, and like, it's a weird dichotomy, like you and I have this discussion, like niche down that niche down and get really, really specific on like, who you want to work for. And the beautiful thing here is like we all can benefit from having a trusted and safe professional to help you dig into some of the discomfort and emotionally charged situations of your past, and to do so in a way to set the intention of learning from a healing so that you can move forward and ascend to that next best level of of who you are. Yeah,

Philip Pape 50:56

it makes sense. I mean, I can't tell people enough that when there's an area of your life that you are committed to and you identified your committee into, why wouldn't you pull on all the resources possible? And oftentimes a third party resource that's that's a level of stress reduction right there, right, because now you're not wondering, okay, what book or podcast I have to read what exercise I have to do, when do I do it? How do I do it? So that's great. And just so people know, I personally had a session with Paul not long ago, and it was fantastic for uncovering some things that I wasn't aware of. So if as far as trusted, safe and professional, he's your man. So Paul, where can people find you and connect with you? Yes,

Paul Salter 51:32

the best place is on Instagram at Paul Salter coaching. I'm active there daily. It's a wonderful Hubber library of just education and resources all about the subconscious mind self sabotage everything under that umbrella topic that we hit on. And then like you mentioned, so kindly, the unstuck yourself podcast, I'm there live every Thursday as well. All right,

Philip Pape 51:51

the unstuck yourself podcast and iG app pulse halter coaching, and we're gonna include that in the show notes as always, and I really love talking to you always. And, you know, we always go into a different direction each time and it's a pleasure to have you on.

Paul Salter 52:04

Yeah, thank you, Phil. It's an absolute pleasure from my end. I always thoroughly enjoyed these discussions. All right, we'll be

Philip Pape 52:10

talking again soon. Yep, take care of him. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 4/16/24 Philip Pape 4/16/24

Ep 164: Food Logging That Doesn’t Suck

Does the idea of food logging stress you out? Do you feel guilty or overwhelmed about tracking food? Or is it a source of freedom and control? Philip discusses making food logging a positive and helpful experience. He emphasizes the importance of approaching it with a neutral and non-judgmental mindset, promoting self-awareness and sustainable progress. Philip shares some principles to promote consistency and avoid obsession, as well as how to use logging data for self-discovery and experimentation. He also recommends using tools like MacroFactor for nonjudgmental food tracking and dynamic metabolism adjustments.

Does the idea of food logging stress you out? Do you feel guilty or overwhelmed about tracking food? Or is it a source of freedom and control?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) discusses making food logging a positive and helpful experience. He emphasizes the importance of approaching it with a neutral and non-judgmental mindset, promoting self-awareness and sustainable progress. Philip shares some principles to promote consistency and avoid obsession, as well as how to use logging data for self-discovery and experimentation. He also recommends using tools like MacroFactor for nonjudgmental food tracking and dynamic metabolism adjustments.

Philip aims to help you transform food logging into a pleasurable and helpful experience, focusing on the big picture, maintaining a neutral mindset, and celebrating progress. He provides practical tips and tools to enhance the food logging process and promote a healthier lifestyle.

Also, this is the LAST WEEK to enroll in Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) at the 40% OFF launch price. Take advantage of this incredible discount now!

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Today, you’ll learn all about:

5:26 What is food logging
8:03 Principles of food logging and practical tips
11:25 Neutral self-awareness, instead of judgment
17:30 Efficient practices for food logging
19:18 What to log and not to track
24:11 Celebrate your progress and positive changes
27:07 Dynamic food logging app
31:31 Outro

Episode resources:

Ep 152: My Complete Muscle-Building Nutrition Blueprint (Bulking to Get Lean and Fit Over 40)
Get MacroFactor for free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS
Get New Physique-Focused Workout Programs Every Month in the Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) - This is the LAST WEEK to join Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU) at a massive 40% DISCOUNT before the launch. Get in on this incredible deal now!
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Episode summary:

Food logging often gets a bad rap. Many view it as a tedious chore, a relentless counting of calories and macros that leaves little room for joy or spontaneity in eating. In this episode, Philip flips the script on this narrative, presenting food logging as a powerful tool for self-discovery and fitness success.

Philip challenges the listener to shed the guilt often associated with meal tracking and instead, embrace it as a liberating journey that aligns with one's fitness goals while also promoting the art of intuitive eating. It's about understanding your body's needs and responses to different foods without the pressure of hitting rigid daily targets.

Instead of focusing on the minutiae, Philip advocates for a broader perspective. By setting weekly goals rather than daily ones, individuals can enjoy more flexibility in their diets. This approach encourages a balance that takes into account life's natural ebb and flow. Moreover, Philip shares a golden tip: aiming for 70-80% accuracy in food logging is the sweet spot for stress-free tracking. This level of precision is enough to provide valuable insights while avoiding the pitfalls of obsessive detail-orientated tracking.

Food logging can act as a budgeting tool for your nutrition, offering incredible insights that can help reshape eating habits for the better. Philip gets personal, sharing his adventures with high-protein breakfasts and how he uses tools like the MacroFactor app to keep his tracking on point. These personal touches not only humanize the practice of food logging but also provide practical examples of how such tools can be incorporated into daily life.

In terms of the practical aspects, the podcast discusses the ease of logging meals and snacks immediately after consumption for better accuracy and convenience. With most people following a dietary routine, food tracking apps like MacroFactor can predict usual foods, simplifying the process. Philip advises focusing on logging the major components of meals—primary proteins, carbs, and added fats—while leaving out minor ingredients that have a negligible impact on the overall nutritional value.

The episode emphasizes the importance of using food logging for self-discovery and experimentation rather than merely adhering to a meal plan. This encourages individuals to make gradual adjustments to their diets, leading to more sustainable and enjoyable lifestyle changes. Additionally, tracking other health metrics, like heart rate variability (HRV), can offer further insights into one's health and fitness progress.

Food logging, when approached with the right mindset and tools, can become an enjoyable and empowering part of the fitness journey. This podcast episode serves as a masterclass in transforming the chore of meal tracking into an insightful voyage toward better health and self-awareness. The take-home message is clear: armed with the right techniques and attitudes, food logging can indeed be a transformative practice, unlocking a healthier and more aware version of oneself.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

When you think of logging or tracking your food, what's the first emotion that comes to mind? Is it freedom? Or is it guilt and stress? Today we're going to transform food logging into a positive empowering tool for achieving your fitness and nutrition goals without the obsession, or neuroticism common with most food blogging, apps and approaches. Tune in to learn the practical tips and mindset shifts that will completely change your relationship with food and help you make sustainable progress toward a body you love.

Philip Pape 00:32

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The Whitson weights podcast. In our last episode 163 The most important overlooked secret to sculpting a body you'll love with Kate galley, we talked about taking care of the most important person in your life. And that is yourself. You learn how to master your inner dialogue, prioritize your health, happiness, and tailor your self care practices to fit your lifestyle. You also gain some practical tools to reshape your daily routine. So it aligns with your core values and propels you toward your best self. If joy and happiness are truly important to you. Today for episode 160. For food logging, that doesn't suck. We're diving into the world of food logging, and discussing how to make it a pleasurable, positive and helpful experience. And if that sounds foreign to you, then you definitely want to listen to this episode, because it can be all of those things. We're going to explore the key principles behind effective food logging, and share some best practices to keep it practical and avoid becoming obsessive or neurotic about it. You'll learn how to approach food logging with a neutral, non judgmental mindset. So that it promotes the whole reason that we do this, which is self awareness, and sustainable progress. Those are the reasons we log if we log at all, we're going to share some practical strategies for making logging a consistent habit without getting bogged down in the details. So that you focus on the big picture, which is nourishing your body and achieving your goals. That's all we're trying to do. You'll also discover how to use your logging data as a tool for self discovery and experimentation. And that is what empowers you to make positive changes based on that discovery and based on experimenting over time, that align with your unique needs and preferences. Now, before we get into it, this is the last week of enrollment for Whitson weights physique University at the launch price before it goes up forever. In Whitson weights physique University, which we now call WW PU. It's a semi private group coaching experience, and we teach you how to do food logging in a way that does bring you massive freedom and progress without the frustrations most people have when it comes to tracking. In fact, one of the courses in there is called macro factor mastery, where we teach you not only how to set up and set up your initial goal in macro factor, which is the food login app we use. But then additional courses and the course will expand over time, additional modules on all of the various features in the app to make the most of it. And not just using it but using it in a practical simple way, with all the little hacks and tricks behind it. Not only that if you are just looking to transform your physique, if you're trying to take your your workout program your nutrition to the next level, which awaits physique University has everything you need. And I mean that in the literal sense, because it took us a while to develop what would be in the program to make sure that it's as close to a one on one experience as possible in a group setting, so you get the best of both. So we give you right at the beginning, a done for you personalized nutrition plan, you don't get that with a lot of group coaching programs. You also get custom designed courses on everything from metabolism to training, to menopause to nutrition. And yes, even the macro factor course I mentioned. And you get a monthly workout programs dropped every month with at least seven programs in there right now. And they're tailored to different goals and experience levels, different equipment access. And all of this stuff is tied to a private community where you can check in, get one on one guidance and join a live coaching call every week. So it's just a ton of stuff in there to keep you going to really keep you accountable and really to just not let you drop off the radar and let you continue to make progress toward your physique goals. So if you're ready to apply the principles of freedom based food logging from today's episode, to actually enjoy the process of building your physique include eating the food side of it, whether you need a bit of fat loss or you want to build some muscle, just go to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in my show notes to enroll in Whitson weights physique University. I'll repeat that. Again. It's Whitson weights.com/physique. Or just click the link in my show notes. It is a monthly cancel anytime program. And I made sure to include a 21 day money back guarantee, so it is completely risk free for you. Okay, let's dive into today's topic. Food logging, that doesn't suck. So here's the thing. Food logging is often described to me as this very tedious, very stressful chores. It's one of those things that a lot of people, they these hear it and they think calorie counting, and cumbersome apps, and weighing every single gram of every single ingredients, and all of these other negative things as well as the app itself, shaming you and berating you and notifying you and bugging you. And it's just this tedious, stressful thing. But it doesn't have to be that way at all. It can be quite the opposite. I and many other others in our community, my clients, we've been tracking for a long time, in some cases, not because we have to, but because it's so easy, and part of our routine and habit. And it helps us meet our goals with very little FOSS very little time that the you know, benefit to cost ratio is so high, why not. But for a lot of people, they don't have that experience with food logging, which is one of the reasons I wanted to make this episode. And if you approach food logging, first of all with the right mindset, right, but also the right strategies, because the actual tool you use the way you do it, no matter the mindset, it can definitely derail you if it's not meant for you and it doesn't serve the purpose we want it to. But with the right mindset and strategies, food logging can be one of the most incredibly valuable tools for building awareness of your eating habits, the balance of your nutrition, whether you're making progress toward your goals. And there's this debate, it seems between intuitive eating and counting macros. And I don't think there has to be, I think you can actually do both. In fact, in one of the, in the physique Foundation's course, in Whitson weights, physique University, which I'm sorry, you're going to hear me talk about this a lot. But it's because I'm excited of the content that we're putting in there. And in this particular course, I have a lesson and it's called, let me see if I can remember this, right? Intuitive Eating while counting macros, something like that. And the idea is, there are lots of things you can be doing, that contribute toward a natural awareness of your body and your hunger cues, that make it easier to meet your goals, even if you weren't tracking. And then when combined with tracking give you the ultimate precision, and the best of both worlds. And I think that's a great flexible way to be because you can toggle between either extreme or the other, depending on your season of life. And depending on what goal you're going after, you can do two full on intuitive eating for a while then do full on tracking, or anything in between. So I like to combine strategies from both and I don't think there has to be an either or in this case. So I want to talk about some principles of food logging today that you might not often think about, okay, not just okay, here's how you log food on a scale and then log it. That's not what this episode is about. So the first principle about food logging, that doesn't suck is, is to focus on the big picture instead of getting bogged down in the details. And there's multiple ways to do this. So one of those is, instead of trying to hit your precise macro targets every day, why don't you step back and think about macros in the course of a week. So what that does is allows you to flex to go up and down on any given day, maybe you've been a little bit under protein for few days, maybe go a little over on a few days, maybe a little under calories, maybe a little over calories. First of all, you're never going to hit the exact number anyway, even if you are trying to it's just not going to happen. It's just not possible. And even if you thought you did, you didn't do it because of the inherent error in food labels and in just the foods in the database. But secondly, it doesn't matter to your body that you're that close to the targets every single day, you just need to be in the ballpark. And so I like to think of terms, not terms, I like to think of things on a weekly basis to allow for that day to day natural variability in our diet. It takes the pressure off of being quote unquote, perfect, which we shouldn't be striving for anyway. And that's how we get a big picture. Now, the other way to have a big picture is instead of even thinking about the targets as exact targets, we think of minimums. And so I like to coach my clients. And can we do this in the group coaching as well, to have a minimum for each of your macros when you're using something like macro factor or any other food logging app, and it has an exact number to hit. Generally the protein I think of the protein number as a minimum, and then the fats and carbs the minimums are lower than the actual target and so it gives you a lot of this flexibility to go up or down. sort of really simplify it, do this number one, hit your protein. Number two, hit your calories. And that's it. And if you hit your protein and calories, it almost doesn't matter what the composition is, except for like extreme cases where you're very low calories or something like that. So that's a way to be a little bit big picture. And then the third way to big, big picture is actually when you're logging your food, you don't have to log every single ingredient. Now, you want to log all the energy in the macros for the most part, but you don't have to do it. By logging every ingredient. I'll give you an example, if you make a salad that has like 14 ingredients, because as all these vegetables and might have some seeds, and nuts, and fruit and dressing and whatever else, there are entries in most food logging apps, for a garden salad, or a Caesar salad, or a house salad or a chef salad. And if that's close enough, and you just logged the total grams, you're probably in the ballpark of what you need, without all the stress of stressing over every single ingredient. And you can apply this to so many things like when you go to a restaurant, you're just trying to find something's close enough and get close enough in terms of the quantity. And honestly that if you're within 30%, you're going to be making massive progress, compared to just not tracking at all. And that's the way to balance the to the balance of tracking versus not being so bogged down in the details. The second principle is on the mindset side, having a mindset of what are called neutral self awareness, instead of judgment. So the goal here is you're trying to build this picture of what your diet looks like, over time. That's, that's the very first reason that we track at all, this is why I encourage people not to go into a dieting phase, or even a muscle building phase on day one, when they start tracking, just spend a good four, six, maybe eight weeks tracking, and not intentionally trying to gain or lose weight, just to build a picture of your diet. And as you do that the goal isn't to beat yourself up over whatever you think is quote unquote, bad, or any indulgences or any inaccuracies, or this came up. So this and this came up. So this that isn't the goal. The goal is just to have this neutral self awareness like, okay, that's, that's my eating pattern like, and when this happens, that's my eating pattern. And when I'm on the weekends, that's my eating pattern. This is what I ate for breakfast, this is how much protein I get, here's the micros I get, you start to build this little library in your head of data that says, Okay, this is me right now. Cool, then, by doing that objectively and not attaching any moral value to it, you gain the most valuable insight possible. And that is a baseline from which to shift in certain directions, right? Very objectively, and without the stress or the guilt. Because that's not the point. The point is to say, here's where I am, here's my goal, to meet my goal, I have certain nutritional needs, and I have certain lifestyle preferences. And I'm going to make my diet shifted pattern toward that by adding in the things that I want and the things that I need to contribute toward those guidelines and meet my goals. Okay, so we establish that baseline by being neutrally self aware. And as we develop that to get within a week or two, we start to get creative lightbulb moments of oh, okay, if I know that to build muscle, I need a decent amount of protein, you know, at least that point seven grams per pound, and I'm getting half that. Well, that's good, objective data that I want to add more protein in somehow. And then I then it gets to be this fun process of all what are all the fun things that I like to eat that have protein? Let's go figure that out. Oh, now how do I do it? Now? How do I fit in this breakfast, and you start to make these fun little changes that allow you to add in the things you want and need, rather than making it the stressful thing? Okay, so that's that's that principle? Well, a tangent to that real quick, because I think this is important is that, you know, research does show us that shame and guilt are big problems in this field. We talk about food and eating. And they lead to worse adherents and outcomes, right, just the fact that you're ashamed or you're guilty, you feel guilty of your food choices, or what you might not even feel or choices, you feel like you're just compelled to eat them, thereby cause you not to adhere to your diet. Whereas if we have some self compassion and this level of neutrality and objectivity, we're gonna get better results. So when we pick the food login app, it's very important to find one that avoids shame based messaging or design elements or notifications that make you feel bad, because you didn't perfectly stick to your nutrition plan. So this is one of the few times in this episode where I'm going to explicitly call out macro factor. I use this for food login, I encourage you to as well I've talked about it many, many times for good reason. It's one of the only apps probably the only app that has this adherents neutral approach. All it does is it Trade logs your food or when you log your food. It shows you the numbers, but it doesn't give them a judgement. It doesn't say that they're over under and that's good or bad. It will it will show you positive, negative, but it won't say it's good or bad or give you red font or notify you like, Oh, you just went five calories over. Because first of all, it doesn't know precisely Are you trying to go over under does it even matter to you that much. And then secondly, there's really no value from an evidence standpoint, that that helps people. And so when you pick your app like that tool alone can make or break your long term success here. Having that neutral, non judgmental approach and tool. To help you learn, all you want to do is learn from your choices, and make progress and sustainable return. That's all you were trying to do. So, again, I am going to mention macro factor a couple times in this episode, because if you want an app that is adherents neutral, besides all the other things that does it, no other apps does like track your targets against your dynamic metabolism, like adjust to your metabolism dynamically. Go download macro factor, use my code, Whitson weights all one word, you'll get an extra week on the free trial. So when you go on the first page, you toggle Yes, I have an affiliate code, you'll see it go from one week to two weeks. Then you enter my code all one word all spelled out with and weights. And you'll get the extra week. Try it out. If you don't like it, don't use it. But I guarantee not guarantee but I almost guarantee that you will. Hey, this is Philip and I hope you're enjoying this episode of weights and weights. I started Whitson weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to Whitson weights.com and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today, I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. If we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 17:30

Okay, so the next thing about the practical side of food logging, that doesn't suck is the practice of logging your meals and snacks as soon as possible after you eat, instead of trying to remember everything at the end of the day. Because this does two things. First, it definitely makes it more accurate. Because in the moment, you're going to have the best information then your brain starts to fade over the day as the day goes on and gets less and less accurate. But it also makes the process feel a lot easier and less daunting. Because to do it in the moment might take 30 seconds. But if you eat five times a day, or six times a day to do it at the end of the day. Now that all adds up to like a five to 10 minute ordeal that feels like a chore sometimes. And this is one of the most common early issues with some of my clients where they'll say, Oh, I couldn't get to it till the end of the day. And you start to see a an issue with their how they feel about the process and the adherence. And one of the quickest solutions to that is just let's log as you eat, it'll become a habit. And it'll actually feel easier that way. And you'll see how quick and easy it is. Because one of the benefits is most people have a routine, most people are eating a lot of the same things for lunch breakfast snacks, day after day after day, with small exceptions being going out to eat and the weekends and things like that. And so when you go like with an app like macro factor, and it's lunchtime, it will usually have the recent foods at that time of day automatically at the top, which makes it even easier to just don't copy paste done. Right. And sometimes they're even the same exact quantities. So that's how you can make it very quick and easy to the point where you're spending no more than like three to five minutes at the entire day logging food utmost and that's what we're talking about here making it not suck, okay. Okay, now when we talk about like what to log, you definitely want to log everything because you know, if you if you leave anything out the app will think that you ate less food for example, but we're trying to log the main things predominantly your your primary protein sources, your carb sources, added fats, you know, we're not trying to track every condiment or garnish or you know, tiny, extra little vegetable that has very few calories. I also don't want you to track supplements necessarily. The caveat there is if the supplements are inconsistent, and I don't mean protein powder, protein powder, you do track because that's a lot of calories. I mean something like fish oil, fish oil has some calories from the fat, but I don't track it because I take the same amount every single day. And all that matters from a tracking perspective is the change over time, you know, how did your calories and macros change? So I wouldn't log all those things. The exception being if you really want to see your micronutrients, and you're taking some multivitamin, and you want, you know, contributes to those Feel free. And in that case, you should be able to just copy and paste day after day after day. So we're looking for consistency, rather than 100.000% precision, we're looking for, believe it or not, around 70 to 80% precision. So just keep that in mind that we're trying to make it less stressful, and less overwhelming. That's one way to do it. We you know, a lot of you eat very healthy dishes that have a lot of ingredients it might have, you might have pasta with peppers with me with a whole bunch of seasoning, like just pick the ones that have the most calories and log those. And even when you have, let's say three different ingredients that are similar, you might go with one of them, like if you have, I don't know, let's go with fruit. If you have strawberries, blueberries and raspberries, maybe just log it as strawberries. It's close enough, you know, again, with the exception of some micros, and things like that, if you if you really hung up on that. Okay, the next thing about using food logging in a positive way that will make you enjoy the process is thinking of it as a tool of self discovery and experimentation, rather than trying to stick to a predefined plan or meal plan. I do like using food logging apps to help you plan your meals early on, when you're trying to figure out oh, how do I get this much protein. But once you figure that out, you get out, you start to develop the intuitive sets. There's the intuitive eating again, for how to compose your meals and your ingredients to get where you need to go. And in that case, I'd rather you use the food login as a way to discover and experiment. Because as you log in and observe your patterns over time, you can see identify, you know areas where you want to make these small, sustainable tweaks, small, sustainable tweaks, a small sustainable tweaks to better align with your goals and preferences. So if you eat 30 grams of protein a day and you need to eat 130 grams, I'm not asking you to say to yourself, oh, I need to add 100 grams in tomorrow, and exactly get to the number. It's no, it's Oh, I'm at 30. Eventually, I want to get to 130. So now I can titrate myself up slowly and make sure I track that with the app. And I'll see myself get there. Over time, I might add more protein at breakfast, I might experiment with some new fun recipes, I have more vegetables, I might find, you know satisfying foods that are just as good as other more calorie dense foods that I tend to overeat and replace them with these other foods. I'll tell you what that is for me lately. Minja creamy recipes I got I got the ninja creamy and I make you know a whole pint of ice cream that's 300 calories with like 40 grams of protein. And it's so satisfying as it tastes just like ice cream, ah, that that kills two birds with one stone no three birds, it gives me the protein, it tends to be filling because of all the protein. And it satisfies my sweet tooth for the ice cream, and the texture and all the other things I told you I love food. Don't get me started. Okay, so self discovery and experimentation. I'll tell you a couple other ways you can use it that way. I love it for things like fiber, and saturated fat. If you're having some digestive issues, or you're not sure you're getting enough fiber, logging your food, great way to see that over time, you can see a I'm getting like 15 grams, maybe I want to be at 30 on average. And again, I'm gonna I'm going to mention macro factor. I know others, like chronometer are pretty good at nutrient tracking a macro factor if you go to your food log, and you tap the macros at the top, you can see like one three day or one day three day week long, month long and six months or something averages again, don't quote me on the actual numbers. But they're averages of all your micros and breakdowns of your macros, including fiber, but you could look at saturated fat and say, okay, my too high saturated fat, or are there minerals like magnesium or phosphorus that you're concerned about? Maybe iron, all of that. It's fantastic. But you use it as a fun process of collecting data and discovery, not as a tool for shaming and judgment. That's where we're going with this. Okay, last thing, I think this is the last thing in my notes, at least.

Philip Pape 24:16

It's really important with anything we do with nutrition, with training, with our mindset development with our self care with our sleep, it's important to celebrate your progress, celebrate the small wins and focus on the positive changes that we make, rather than dwelling on what we perceive as failures. And I say it that way on purpose. We perceive as failures, none of the things we'd ever do in this game of food and tracking is a failure. It's just a choice that has a result. And we can look at that and collect the data. And then there are always solutions that help us out as individuals overcome those roadblocks. It's a skill, we practice. We learn we develop over time it's a learning process. Every single day is an opportunity to gather data to reflect on the outcome, what we've measured and make small improvements. And because of that, I think food logging is such a powerful, almost necessary tool for a lot of people. And I'll tell you why. Sometimes the counter argument to this is, you know, oh, you know, we've done that with Weight Watchers, we've done that with diets where you track and you track food, or you count calories. And let's, let's do Intuitive Eating instead. And then I look at the process for this into so called intuitive eating, and involves all of this other tracking in terms of journals and diaries, and food scales and portions. And this net, which to me is very stressful and overwhelming. And it may not be to you because there's something for everyone. But I don't know why, like just tracking what you eat for two seconds is somehow this awful thing for some people, I just don't get it, other than the fact that the way it's been done for years has been counterproductive, right? Shaming you making you feel like you're imperfect, just because you missed a you know, a number, you know, making you feel like you have to log every single gram of every ingredient, all those things. And that's why I think today's episode is to let you know that there's a way to log food where it is this empowering, little easy tool that's very stress free and guilt free, and helps you meet your goals because it gives you data and awareness. Just like your budget and your bank account gives you data on where your money's going. That's really all it is. Right? And you don't have to do it the rest of your life. But you could, I bet you're going to be using a budget for most of your life. Unless you're filthy rich, you're probably using a budget. Well, even if you're filthy rich, you probably should be using a budget, right? So by approaching this whole thing with more curiosity, like, oh, I want to log because I want to see what's going on, like what's going on when I eat, and then self compassion, like, Okay, I don't need to judge myself or feel guilty. I just want to know what's going on. And I want to make choices and ask for help. If I'm not sure what to do next, then you'll be much more likely to stick with it long term and reap the benefits. Okay, so I mentioned already, if you're looking for a good tool in terms of the app, because most people aren't doing these notebooks or spreadsheets anymore, right? We have modern software that's really helpful in this regard, if it's designed well. And if you're looking for a tool to support the food logging, like we talked about here, you definitely want to check out macro factor, because it embodies a lot of these principles. It takes a flexible, non judgmental approach to tracking. And it also provides personalized recommendations based on your goal. And based on your progress. One of the cool things it does, in fact, I think I might have talked about it on the muscle building blueprint episode is, you know, yeah, losing fat, I'll say is, is quote unquote, easy in the sense that you go into the deficit you need for the fat loss you need. And it is what it is for everybody. And I'm oversimplifying, but just in terms of the calorie deficit. But when you're trying to build muscle, everybody builds muscle at a different ratio of muscle to fat. When people lose fat, if you're training and you're training, effectively, you're gonna lose mostly fat and very little muscle. And the ratio is roughly the same for most people. But when you're gaining muscle, you're gaining different ratios. Normally, it's around 5050. And macro factor assumes that, but for some people like a beginner, it might be a lot more muscle. For an advanced person, it might be a lot less, if you get injured or your like, take breaks, it will be less. And so the app can actually detect what ratio you're gaining, and adjust the surplus accordingly. That is pretty cool. Like that's the exciting and curious part about it. Because just by seeing how to adjust your surplus, you can know that what it's seen about your ability to build muscle, right? Amazing. The insights that you can get like that are the reason I do like to track and that's why I track a lot of things right I track HRV, which you either you already heard about or shortly going to hear about in a quick wits episode. I track obviously my lifts, and I track my my body measurements, I track my biofeedback, all of those things. And the reason I love macro factor for the food logging part is besides the adherence neutral approach that doesn't shame you, or berate you for missing your targets. It's the only app on the market that dynamically adjusts to your metabolism. That's important. It's not like chronometer, My Fitness Pal and all the other ones and just stay away from the free apps because the free apps tend to be they make you the product and that's why they're so annoying and badly designed, let's be honest. But these other apps, they make you come up with a targets based on a formula, or they give you a target based on a formula not based on your actual response to food and weight. Well, macro factor does dynamically adjust so then you'll know okay, I need to eat this much to be in this surplus, or I need to eat as much to be in this deficit, and you'll know where your targets are. Calorie and macro targets are exactly where they need to be each week, based on the goal you've selected. Lose Fat, build muscle, maintain whatever it is. So again, you can download macro factor and use my code wits and waits for an extra free week on the free trial. The link is in the show notes or just go to your app store, search for macro factor all one word, download it and enter my code, wits and weights all one word when you set it up. Alright, so what did we learn today, I hope we learned that food logging doesn't have to suck by focusing on the big picture, right? Cultivating self awareness without judgment, prioritizing the things that actually matter, approaching it with curiosity and self compassion. I am a believer and I walked the walk every day and so to those in our community and our clients that you can make food logging a practical and positive, long term part of your sustainable health and fitness journey. Alright, and whether you join Whitson weights physique university or you just want to try this on your own, don't forget to download macro factor and use it for free with my code, wits and weights. The link is in your show notes. Hit me up on IG at Whitson weights with any questions, I'll help you set it up. Maybe I'll send you a video that I have to do that. And as a bonus, there is a course in WWE pu called macro factor mastery that will walk you through an entire setup process and how to start your first goal. And everyone who joins WWE, you will have instant access to that. And again the link to enroll this week at the launch price before it goes up is in the show notes or you can go to Whitson weights.com/physique Okay, and our next episode 165 The Stealth mind trick to turn excuses into action with Paul Salter. Paul is back on the show to teach you how to turn your excuses your self sabotage, procrastination, and your perfectionism into massive action by digging beneath the surface to the subconscious mind. As always, stay strong, and I'll talk to you next time here on The wit's end weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wits or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Philip Pape 4/12/24 Philip Pape 4/12/24

Ep 163: The Most Important, Overlooked Secret to Sculpting a Body You'll Love with Kate Galli

What is the most important thing in your life and how can you take care of that to create a body you'll love? Kate Galli is on the show and brings a unique perspective to self-care, emphasizing the importance of being in the best physical and mental shape to make a difference in the world. In this episode, she will guide you on how to master your inner dialogue, prioritize your health and happiness, and tailor your self-care practices to fit your lifestyle. You'll gain practical tools to reshape your daily routine, so it aligns with your core values and propels you to become the best version of yourself.

What is the most important thing in your life and how can you take care of that to create a body you'll love?

Philip (@witsandweights) has a special guest, Kate Galli, on the show today. Kate brings a unique perspective to self-care, emphasizing the importance of being in the best physical and mental shape to make a difference in the world. In this episode, she will guide you on how to master your inner dialogue, prioritize your health and happiness, and tailor your self-care practices to fit your lifestyle. You'll gain practical tools to reshape your daily routine, so it aligns with your core values and propels you to become the best version of yourself.

Kate has extensive qualifications, including being a Master Personal Trainer for 18 years, a Life Coach, and an NLP Practitioner. She is also committed to plant-based nutrition, a path she's been dedicated to for the past eight years. She uses this approach to help thousands of individuals sculpt the body and life they love with the confidence to go with it.

Kate's work is fueled by her ambitious vision: a world where fitness and compassion go hand in hand to create a fit, strong, happy, and healthy planet. She believes in the power of mindset, of CHOOSING to eat and move in a way that is sustainable and consistent with your lifestyle AND values.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:49 The importance of self-care
7:01 Self-talk and labels you assign to yourself
13:03 Elicit your values and beliefs
19:39 Lock and load the big rocks that make you happy
25:55 Filter the people you spend time with
33:27 Create a not-to-do list
38:45 A 24-hour digital detox
43:27 Realistic for yourself and the people you love
53:23 Easy quick fixes
55:50 The question Kate wanted Philip to ask
57:05 Where to find Kate
57:42 Outro

Episode resources:

Kate's podcast: The Healthification Podcast
The Plant Positive Journal
Instagram: @strongbodygreenplanet

Episode summary:

Kate Galli, a respected health coach, author, and podcast host, shares her insights into the art of crafting a life brimming with joy and well-being. With her extensive background in personal training, life coaching, neuro-linguistic programming (NLP), and plant-based nutrition, Kate brings a wealth of knowledge to the table, offering listeners a myriad of practical tools to reshape their daily routines for enhanced joy and well-being.

One of the focal points of the conversation is the concept of self-care, which Kate describes as the bedrock of a fulfilling life. She highlights the undeniable link between maintaining a strong body, a resilient mind, and our ability to effect change in the world. Self-care, according to Kate, isn't just about indulging in relaxation; it's about mastering our inner dialogue, prioritizing our health and happiness, and tailoring self-care practices to fit individual lifestyles and core values.

As the episode unfolds, the discussion shifts to the challenges of maintaining boundaries in our technology-saturated lives. The pre-smartphone era, characterized by a clear demarcation between work and personal time, seems a distant memory, making it imperative for individuals to manage the relentless demands of our connected world. Kate and the host, Philip Pape, delve into strategies for setting boundaries and carving out essential downtime, emphasizing the importance of positive self-talk as a transformative tool for health.

Further into the conversation, the delicate dance of aligning actions with personal values takes center stage. Kate talks about identifying core emotional states, using tools like the VIA survey from positive psychology, and modeling values based on the lives of respected mentors. This process, she argues, is vital to ensure authentic and effective personal development.

Another key theme of the episode is the importance of prioritizing self-care habits, which Kate refers to as the 'big rocks' of our lives, such as adequate sleep, exercise, and nutrition planning. She shares strategies for scheduling these habits to ensure they remain non-negotiable parts of our lives, thus freeing up time for other pursuits without guilt.

In addition, Kate discusses the importance of creating boundaries for personal growth, especially in contexts like plant-based eating and fitness, which may not always align with mainstream choices. She emphasizes leading with love, compassion, and deliciousness when sharing values and the necessity of creating a 'not to do list' to prioritize time for activities that align with our values.

The episode wraps up with a discussion on setting realistic expectations and compassionate communication, particularly in relationships where values may differ, such as with dietary choices. Adjusting expectations and focusing on what we can control, Kate suggests, can help cultivate a more compassionate approach to self-care and interpersonal relationships.

Overall, the episode with Kate on Wits and Weights serves as a heartfelt guide to believing in oneself and embracing both long-term strategies and quick fixes for maintaining well-being. It's a conversation filled with wisdom that could very well spark your next breakthrough in personal wellness.

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Transcript

Kate Galli 00:00

We are going to be in the game long term, we need to look after ourselves. And the journey though along that journey needs to be happy as well, but to be sustainable, it can't be all angsty all the time.

Philip Pape 00:15

Welcome to the wit's end waits podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of the wits and weights Podcast. Today we are hanging out with Kate galley, a health coach, author and host of the health of vacation podcast, I invited Kate on the show today to talk about taking care of the most important person in your life. And that is yourself. Changing the world requires that you have the most capable body and mind to do so in my opinion. And so you are going to learn how to master your inner dialogue, how to prioritize your health and happiness, and tailor your self care practices to fit your lifestyle. You'll also learn some practical tools to reshape your daily routine, so that it aligns with your core values and propels you toward your best self. If joy and happiness are truly important to you. Yes, Kate has extensive qualifications including being a master personal trainer for 18 years, a life coach and an NLP practitioner, which is also committed to plant based nutrition. A passion has been dedicated to for the past eight years, as a way of helping 1000s of individuals sculpt the body and life they love with the confidence to go with it. Her work is fueled by her ambitious vision, a world where fitness and compassion go hand in hand to create a fit strong, happy and healthy planet. Kate believes in the power of mindset of choosing to eat and move in a way that is sustainable and consistent with your lifestyle and values. Kate, I love your mission. And I really want to welcome you to the show.

Kate Galli 02:06

Thank you so much Dilip and what a fabulous introduction. I appreciate it.

Philip Pape 02:11

And you know, we connected through the podcasting world and I've been listening to your show as well. And I love the positivity that that definitely appeals to me. And I know a lot of people listen to this show look for that. They look for that, because there's a lot of negativity out there. And today we're talking about the one person maybe some of us put most of that negativity onto which was ourselves and turn that around. And we're gonna get into the topic of self care, which, as we were joking before we started recording is not always the sexiest topic, right? It's like, here are the five things to do for your health. And maybe down here at the bottom for some of those lists is managing stress and self care. So first question for you is why is self care important to you? Why should those listening pay attention as we start to explore this topic? I

Kate Galli 02:57

think it's something that many years ago, potentially self care was naturally worked into our lifestyle, there was an end of the working week, there was time out, I think increasingly, those of us that want to live happy and healthy, and it have a positive impact on the people we love most and also the world if we have a really big vision, we need to set some boundaries and take control so far as their self care practices we have. And it's so important to me, they look probably as with most things that you really focus on, it's important because I've really struggled with it. So I've had, I guess, devise the strategies that work for me that work for my clients that will work there so many people to just incorporate these little self care practices into our every single day.

Philip Pape 03:46

So there's two things that already struck me right deep down inside the first one, especially that you said that used to be integrated into our lifestyle. So do you mean historically, you know, pre technology, kind of if you go back 50 or 100 years, which I can imagine just tired of the idea like simplistic times those were because I'm 43. And I remember before cell phones and computers and even that I have nostalgia for like the 80s and 90s of using payphones and not having a phone with you all the time. So tell us a little more about that. Because I think that's a cool perspective, especially when Today we live in such a jazzed up, you know, connected world.

Kate Galli 04:21

It's so true. I'm 27 I have nostalgia for the fact that before mobile phones before their computers, but boy, so much technology, that weekend was the weekend and maybe if we were small business owners back then our parents or whoever, you know, maybe they were always on but they weren't always on to the degree to which we are now and I think that is why we need to set these boundaries. And if we travel that even further, I think of my grandparents who lived on a farm and there was a constant never ending list of things to do. But at the end of the day, that list was there for tomorrow. And you continued on tomorrow. And it's almost like there wasn't the self pressure that we now keep on ourselves back then I'm sure there was lots of pressure. However, I looked back at it fondly, and go, Wow, they were pretty good times. Yeah,

Philip Pape 05:15

it's amazing how quickly all that changes, too. Because as when I was a young engineer, this is 20 years ago, we didn't have the ability to work from home, we didn't have laptops, it was computers on a desk, and even that I could remember, the day was done, and you drive home. And it's like, one less thing. And now everything is just with you all the time. So it's good to have that awareness of the context. So hopefully, we'll get now I'm sure we're gonna get into how do we now manage our lives in that context. But the other thing you mentioned was that you personally have struggled with it, we can all relate, I can relate. being just a hustler. We're so busy, I love to I do love to work, and I love what I do for people. But you know, we need a break sometimes. And practical strategies, I think are where it's at. Because there's a lot about, there's a lot of lists online, like, you know, what, and I know you have them too, right. But yeah, but some of them are just like boilerplate, you know, do meditation, do yoga, Do this, do that. It's just a standard list of things. And I think today, we're gonna get into some more, like you said, practical things, and maybe not everything on the list is for everyone, but people can pick what works for them. So what are your thoughts on everything I just threw at you.

Kate Galli 06:20

I completely agree. Self Care is like fitness to a degree. Obviously, it's a huge part of that. But people just want to jump in and take the actions, you know, with fitness with weight loss, tell me how to eat tell me how to train, we actually need to lay the foundation for someone's future success in fitness, health and fitness and self care is the same. It's not just the meditation, and the meal prep and the adequate sleep, it's the digging deeper, it's the mindset behind that that is going to pull you through on your struggle straight days. Because there can be struggles, straight days, just prioritizing self care in the same way that there can be getting to the gym, or whatever it may be. That's

Philip Pape 07:01

so true. And I noticed parallels with your list. So just for the listener, we're gonna base this off list that Kate has called eight step guide to cultivating self care where self care is an acronym. It's eight things. And you know, again, we're not going to overwhelm you with a list here. But is the order that this is important, because I noticed it starts with the mindset and seems to move toward practical steps. Does that make sense? I get

Kate Galli 07:24

what you're saying. Perhaps it just worked out, really. And then the last one is probably just a bit of fun. And I just I love an acronym for it. Fair enough. I don't know why I've got many of them. But the first one is very important. Okay, yeah,

Philip Pape 07:37

we could just go in order and make this a natural thing. Like I'm not just going to artificially segue, let's see what we let's see what we cover. And the first one is self talk, right? Yeah, self talk. Like, what comes what strikes me is how, especially like in the food and the movement training world, people they give themselves labels, all sorts of labels all the time about who they quote, unquote, are. And sometimes it limits them from who being who they want to be or who they aspire to be. But you tell us about the importance of self talk, negative and positive self talk and where we can go from there.

Kate Galli 08:12

So your self talk is so incredibly powerful, and if you recognize them, and first step is an awareness, right, so if you recognize you're in the habit of, I guess, negative self talk, I can't do this. This is too hard. I'm naturally fat and lazy, whatever horrific self talk you might have. Awareness is the first step. And we can change the way that we speak to ourselves, we can aim to speak to ourselves, and the way that we will speak to someone we really love, and hopefully we really love ourselves. But maybe it's easier to imagine, you know, your little sister or your mom or dad or partner. And I mean, I'll share from my personal experience. I remember a dear lady that I started training about a decade ago and this lady when she walked into the gym, she would have been in her mid 60s and we stopped training together when I left Sydney and she would have been in her mid 70s by then. And she was on the cross trainer warming up the her session with me and herself talk out loud was I can't I can't I can't I can't I can't and I was like, oh my goodness, like that was her non stop out loud. No luck. And I guess it was a matter of pointing out to her how she was making it so much harder on herself than she needed to. She was to focus instead on what she could and what she actually was doing. And bit by bit the transformation. I saw it and that lady who you know, in the end, she's still going strong without me in her 70s and back in Sydney, lifting really decent weights and one of the things I love about the gym and trying not to get too off track but is the confidence that being able to change Your strength and body in the gym by lifting weights specifically, I know you're on board with this. This is applicable to every other area of your life becoming the person who used to be I can't. And now is I can and I am that is absolutely a confidence that just is going to be reflected in other areas of your life as well.

Philip Pape 10:23

Yes, yeah, lifting weights does build resilience, because it's just this physical, achievable objective thing, right? It's just like so concrete when you do it, I get that. And you said earlier imagining someone you love to? It's true, right? We put ourselves in a vacuum as if we're separate from other humans somehow, and yet, we're having our own conversation. So there's a few different types of self talk I want to explore. One is the type where there's a factual situation, okay. And I hear this all the time, when it comes to training, people are getting started, and they might have some pain, or they might have some limitation, or they might have some, something that can be a quote, unquote, potential excuse, right for, for taking that next step. How do we deal with that scenario, first and foremost, because that sometimes is a big roadblock to people getting started on health and fitness, right? Like, oh, I have painful shoulders, therefore, I don't lift weights, therefore, I'm not going to go to the gym. But how do we deal with that type of self talk.

Kate Galli 11:17

And then again, I would start small and manageable and focus on what you can do. Because always there is something you can do. It's the same way. I mean, obviously, you'd see a professional if you had a particular injury, but often we have these little niggles that prevent us from doing certain things. And so again, choose your focus and focus on where you can do, and that's going to be so much more productive.

Philip Pape 11:43

Yeah. 100%. So just if somebody's asking you a question, the listener is listening, and your immediate response is, oh, I just can't do that. Or I feel this. And therefore I can't ask yourself, What's the alternative? What can you do? Yeah, I love that.

Kate Galli 11:57

So you know, tough, tough love Kate would also say, and I had a dear coaching friend ask this to me talk about love Kate would say, so how's that working for you? That current mindset that you are choosing? How effective and even more so How fun is that? That whole? I can't it's too hard, not me. It's just not fun or effective. And I am all about fun and effective and health and fitness.

Philip Pape 12:23

Love it fun and effective. And I put efficient to in that effective 100%. Like saving time. And yeah, what I mean, when it comes to food and fitness people do that all the time. Are you restricting what you eat? Or are you nourishing your body? Right? Are you punishing yourself? Because the gym just quote unquote, sucks? Or is it? I'm looking forward to, you know, challenging myself because I'm able to grow my strength and muscle or whatever, right? So Landreth, has said, love that. Alright, so if we continue to thinking of ourselves in our mindset, and getting in our head, part of that self talk, and that self identity also has to do with maybe where we've been and where we're going and our values or systems, our beliefs, right, and I think your second step is actually elicit your values and beliefs. So how do we I guess the first question is, how do we even identify those because some people probably don't even think about them. This is an element of self awareness, you talked about self awareness, and then we can align them. So how do we first identify those? Yeah,

Kate Galli 13:19

I love this. So it's elicit your values and beliefs and use them as a daily filter in your decision making. And this is going to aid in your self care. And for our listeners, you have your values of those most important states that you're drawn to. So if you haven't yet elicited them, think of where you spend your time, your energy, your money, not what you hope you would prioritize, but what you honestly do prioritize. So I mean, personally, example, my top values of freedom, and integrity. And they work really well with health and fitness. Because personally, I see the the ability to be able to rock around in a fit, strong, healthy body that I feel confident about. I see that as freedom. And as a personal trainer for 18 years, so far is integrity. If I am not walking the talk, I have zero integrity. So that is super compelling, the way it might not work. And the way we might need to change it is imagine that your number one value is something along the lines of love or connection or family. And that's an amazing value. However, imagine you had a weight loss goal, and the actions you needed to take to achieve that goal. You know, maybe you admit that maybe that's getting to the gym or going for a walk or some sort of workout early in the morning. If in your mind, you are seeing that action you need to take to achieve your goal. If you're seeing that as in conflict with spending time with your family, the people you love most. It's going to be a constant battle. You're going to be finding yourself to take that worthy action and get the gym and get the results. You don't need to change your values. You don't need to change your goal. You just need to Have reframe them to a way that is more congruent and supportive. So whatever you saw that thing that that strong, healthy version of you allows you to live a long fulfilled life with your family, it allows you to be the most positive role model for your family. That is the way that goes, that value is going to support the attainment of your goal rather than being in conflict with it.

Philip Pape 15:25

That that, that speaks to me in the in the food department, especially when, right when people say like this, this particular style of eating, and I'm sure this this resonates with you as well is I'm being told this is the right thing to do, right or this, this is good or bad, or it ends up being a moral choice. Like it's strange, this cognitive dissonance that you're talking about. And somehow we think that there's the sacrifice we just have to make, right? We just have to make that sacrifice when what you're saying is something doesn't feel right. It's not aligning with what I believe in some way. And somebody has to change. Now, you said reframing, is that reframing then the catalyst for finding a different action to take, you know, a different way to take that action? Because I like going to the gym, you said which is kind of that's a generic thing, right? So we want to get more specific, could somebody's values be in conflict with going to the gym? Or is it gets in conflict with what goes into the gym gets them right? And the reason they're going to the gym? That's what you're, you're saying, right? Yeah,

Kate Galli 16:26

I mean, you have to be it to a degree, like you want to think had on your values and make sure they really are your true values, right. And I didn't dig in all that much with the eliciting, but maybe you come up with as many of these emotional states as you can possibly think of there are hundreds of them from from truth and love. And can the listener brainstorm as many as you possibly can, and then narrow it down to your top five, and then order them by priority to make sure that we really are dealing with what, what really those emotional states that you really do seek out and should be a way to align them congruently with the actions you need to take, I'm trying to think of somewhere where it wouldn't be congruent. And in my mind, I'm just a way that you couldn't reframe it. And in my mind, I'm just thinking it's some sort of a negative value or incongruent value to start with. That's what I'm coming up.

Philip Pape 17:23

Makes sense. The premise is flawed, and yeah, we'll go back to the values always come back to those. Yeah, that makes sense. Because you said what, you know, what do you prioritize now? What do you hope to prioritize? Yeah, yeah. And the brainstorming, that's pretty cool. It reminds me of a survey in positive psychology called the via survey. Have you heard of this? Oh, I haven't. So me, okay, the VA, it's free, you can take it online, I think it's associated with a book called authentic happiness. And you take the survey takes like 20 minutes, it's a lot of questions. And it tells you your top strengths. But to me the strength and it's only strengths, its weaknesses is just strengths. It's positive focus. And they appear to be like values, like there's compassion and optimism. And there's probably freedom and honesty and things like that on there. Just thinking if I'm a very like, left brain type thinker, so when I, maybe that self talk, it's okay, I embrace it. It's working for you. It's okay. I embrace it. And so I like to have structure around some of this stuff. So if people are looking for a way to brainstorm, that's one that came to my mind, when you talk about brainstorming, is there other tools that you use specifically? Or is this just kind of a freeform thing that you do? Let's

Kate Galli 18:34

say much, it's probably fee free form. However, if someone was struggling, if they really didn't know what their values might be, I would look to someone who they respect to someone and mentor someone to potentially model you don't even need to know this person, everyone makes themselves so available online, and try and I guess, elicit what their values might be looked at. If this is a person leading a life with the health or whatever you're looking to attain for yourself. If they're leading the life that you're looking to lead, maybe try and imagine what they make time for and what they don't make time for and potentially what their top values are, that could be a starting point, again, needs to feel congruent with you. And if you're really stuck, it's good to look at the people who are where you want to be. Yeah, that

Philip Pape 19:20

makes a lot of sense and it's consistent with what we were talking about self talk kind of going outside yourself because we do get stuck in like we're this you know unique special person but as if we are not connected to the rest of humanity and really there's so many role models out there for us potentially. So I love that. Do you want to share with the third one is because you know what they are? Or I can okay no

Kate Galli 19:43

of course of course. And they are sounding as it like almost cutting by order of importance. So owl and self care is to lock and load the big rocks that keep you happy and healthy. So call them big rocks or Keystone Habits or whatever it is. Most of us have in our idea of the things that when we do them with feeling our best, mentally, physically and also happiness wise, because happiness is so important. So your big rocks, they might be adequate sleep, they might be exercise, I hope they are, they might be planning your meals, some sort of mindfulness, it might be meditation, it might be journaling, it might be self reflection, whatever it is that you need in your week, my recommendation is to schedule them to lock and load them as non negotiable habits. So that basically they don't get nudged out at the mercy of all those little pebbles, all those little urgent, less important things that can just tend to jump into our week. That's,

Philip Pape 20:45

that's one of the best piece of advice, honestly, that I think people can hear is the scheduling part. I mean, seriously, what are the what are the excuses I hear all the time is I don't have time, right? And I'm sure you hear it as well, I don't have time for XYZ. And yeah, there's limited time in the day, it's 24 hours. So there, you're not, you don't have more, and you don't have less you have 24 hours, it's not like you have, but the question is where are you putting that time. So I know personally, sleep has always been something that I have to pay more attention to and schedule and more. Because, you know, for me, it's like, you're squeezed in right by the day. For others, it might be like you said exercise or training because they're just, you know, they don't want to get up at five in the morning or whatever the reason is their excuses. And maybe they want to do it in the afternoon or something like that. What would you say are the big of the top two or three, you mentioned the pillars themselves, like sleep exercise planning, but when you work with people or clients, or whoever the top ones that come up all the time where people struggle to do that, and it's not just a matter of hey, go schedule it, there's there's some extra step that's taken to really make sure that happens. What would you say,

Kate Galli 21:49

the things that people struggle with is definitely any sort of planning around their nutrition. And you know, and that doesn't actually have to be meal prep every single week, I used to for hours every week, and I don't mind it, I'd listen to a podcast while I was doing it. However, it might just be finding out once off those go to really quick and effective recipes that you love the taste of you might not need to meal prep them every week, however, you might need to work out that, hey, this is the quick thing I tend to based on what's on the fridge and what's in the fridge and freezer and pantry. When I get home late and my discipline tank is empty, and I'm absolutely starving. This is my quick go to that I know how to make or when I'm out and about this is what I know to buy or whatever it is definitely, definitely nutrition is the thing that people struggle with. And so far is making it work. You know, when I am massive on structure, maybe even to a boat I very much it helps me be efficient and effective. But I'm not very good at and prompt you. And one of my dear friends used to always call me the planner, and I'm like, well works for me. If our listeners are struggling with the thought of too much structure, again, I kind of Rephaim frame it to structure is freedom because you've got all the things that are priority structured into your week, so that you're going to get the results that you're seeking. But also you've got the free time structured, because if you don't bother planning or structuring anything, then all the hours in your day hours that you should language or pressure be doing something. Whereas if I've got all my hours structured for what I need to do, then all those other hours are free their mind out unscheduled. Oh

Philip Pape 23:35

man, this is so good. You're hitting out of the park Kate, I love all of this. I definitely empathize with the structure piece, but also the freedom of it. And like food logging, food tracking, right. A lot of my clients will do that early on to kind of understand the quantities and the macros and micronutrients, even if I don't care what the target is, I just want them to be aware. And all of a sudden, sometimes when people start documenting things, or like you said scheduling things, they realize that it takes away the fatigue of the decision making it takes away the emotion. Right and you said impromptu and to me that's one of the most stressful things is to imagine having a black hole of possible decisions. And now if anything that makes me highly inefficient because now I have this hour and I'm like what do I do during this trip? It's funny, you won't know we know know what we're talking about. And then you talked about the recipes. So I have a a woman on my team who is the the recipe person like she loves fancy recipes and meal planning and all that and I just That's not me. I like I like mix and match. Like 10 foods, give me 10 or 15 foods in my whole kitchen. Others mix, mix and match them all week and I'm happy right? But one thing did come to mind when you're seeing all that is tying it into your positive reframing earlier. Make it fun, right like whatever works for you and aligns with your values. I bought a ninja creamy finally you know what that is? Right?

Kate Galli 24:59

I no bullet or something like a blender thingy.

Philip Pape 25:03

It is specifically to make ice cream.

Kate Galli 25:05

Oh, hilarious. I thought it might be like No.

Philip Pape 25:09

It specifically for ice cream it has like the blade comes down slowly into a frozen mixture that you've made the night before. So that's okay. Yeah, and I love ice cream. And I joke about it all the time on the show. Because anytime we talk about like the foods you enjoy, and like, you know, you don't have to restrict, I always bring up ice cream. And to me, it's so much fun to get this thing and figure out new recipes for it and make, you know, 300 Calorie peanut butter cup ice cream for a whole pint, that would have been like four times the calories, you know, and I thought it. So things like that can can go a long way. I'm just just having fun rolling with it here. Okay, so Lock and load the big rocks that keep you happy and healthy, which means prioritize the things that are really important and make them non negotiable and schedule them into your week. Love it. The fourth one filter the people you spend time with. And this

Kate Galli 25:59

works so far is the people you maybe want to spend a little bit less time with, but also the people you want to spend more time with. So we all know those conversations or those catch ups where we come back, and we are absolutely exhausted. And we're Why did we even do this? And obviously we don't have complete control over maybe the people we work with maybe some of our family members, we do have some control. And again, this just comes back to awareness and thinking, How did I feel after that interaction? Is it really worth it? Can I spend less time with this person? And at least as importantly, you know, those catch ups that you come back from and you're on such a high maybe you're so motivated to get into the business or whatever it may be, you're just on a high after spending time with that person? How can you spend more time with that individual and this count star online as well. It relates to the type of podcasts you listen to, you know, from time to time, I'll go down a true crime rabbit hole. And maybe that's good, that distraction, but it's really not the quality fuel that I want to be feeding my mind. But there's limitless people that our listeners can and ourselves can spend time with by a podcast or online, that they actually feel really positive after that time that they didn't test it. And, and so that's what that steps about. Yeah,

Philip Pape 27:25

so filter, you're right filtering people where you're with and without, because we do some talk about, okay, get rid of toxic people in your life and this and that. But you're talking about also seeking out the positive, kind of like when nutrition you know, we add in things that serve us and are positive and it tends to crowd out, you just don't necessarily have the energy aerospace for those other people you mentioned, you know, we might make excuses that we don't have control over it. But yet, we can. And this is self talk and self reframing. I was thinking about how people who started working from home during the pandemic, you know, some people loved it, some people hated it, whatever. Some people started going back to work and saying, on both sides of the equation. So people are like, well, now I'm around all these people that are that are bothering me all day, and I don't you know, they're negative energy. And so I'm just gonna work from home. But anyway, jokes aside people who give you a high, not just physically who you interact with, but like you said, the information you get. And so I'm thinking I used to be a big news junkie, the Cable News Network. And when I it's like a drug when you cut it off, right? You go through withdrawal at first, as you like, what's going on in the world. And then you realize how liberating it is not to have all that negative information? Oh,

Kate Galli 28:36

sure. I'm like, drama happens naturally enough in our life anyway, why would we seek out more drama, and even drama that doesn't even relate to us? Why would we do that? It's just it's a waste of energy and joy. It is.

Philip Pape 28:49

Yeah. And the podcasting, too, I would say, definitely gotta listen to Kate's podcast. Keep listening to this one and follow it if you're new to get that positive spin because that's that's what we like. And I joked before we started recording that occasion, we'll have someone on where we might have some disagreements in certain small areas, but they're insignificant in the context of like, I don't want to be a new show where it's like talking heads fighting against each other and having debates. I know, there's people in the fitness space who love that, and they call people out and they have the debates. That's not me. I don't know what you think, Kate, but that to me is another way you can filter. You know who you surround yourself with. The

29:28

most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything and that there was going to be no judgement. It was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in turn. wanting to help and Philip really embody all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Kate Galli 30:13

I respect that I love your approach, it's something I aspire to even more as well, because when push comes to shove, it's about what's effective. And it 99.9% of the time, I'm not going to say something so impactful that you, you change some tightly held identity, belief or value in the moment, it's just gonna create conflict. It's not I don't enjoy listening to it as a listener. And I think just plant little seeds over time and be the person live the lifestyle, rather than telling and judging and you know, anyone that follows me, it's an ongoing lesson for me as well. However, I respect the people that do it well, and you do it well. So appreciate it.

Philip Pape 30:59

Yeah, and I feel for the situation you're in as well. You know, for people listening, check out the Health Education podcast, because Kate's plant based and she, she lives by her values, right? And you guys know, I'm an omnivore. And that's, we're just different in that sense. And that's fine. And one of our recent episodes was about, you know, how to positively interact with people who don't agree with you, I mean, effectively to that, what I don't know how long ago that episode was about was going through your feed. It's a lot of them, ya know, there's a lot of them. And when you're in a, in a very small minority, which I imagine, still to this day, at least in the Western world, kind of pleased eating is in a small minority. Now, if you live in India, it's kind of the flip because I remember visit India, it's like, you had to seek out the meat, you know, the opposite. But anyway, we're in the minority. And we can extend that to a lot of what we do for our health or our values, right? When you think of fitness and lifting weights, how many people really lift weights, it's a tiny percentage people. And so having that small see that pushes out of positivity and values is important without letting the kind of silly controversies override that I don't know. That's what I think

Kate Galli 32:05

it absolutely relates to health and fitness, and also to politics not to go there. But if anyone is listening, and they have conflict with someone that they love, maybe the person they met love most in the world. And the thing you care about most that are that person that you love just doesn't get it. Like it relates to so many things. And the thing that I'm learning is to lead with love and compassion. And so far is the food deliciousness as well. Maybe labor deliciousness food breakfast, right. But that the judgment and the anger, it just I tried that it doesn't work.

Philip Pape 32:40

Yeah, everyone has some value in something that they can say. And where I was going with that is, I just recently heard someone I follow a long time on a podcast mentioned a fact about themselves that I had no idea and I wouldn't have not listened to them because of it. But it wouldn't necessarily be associated with someone that I always associate with, right. And I realized after years of following this person and agree with 99.99% of what they say, then that that's that I agree with most of what they say that I should value that, you know, the value is still there and say no, we're not going to agree on everything. So yeah, it comes down to. So all right, so we got a little bit philosophical, but I do think that's important in the context of filtering people, which was number four. So okay, we can keep going on keep on that topic, because now we get into a little more of the, I'll say, some of the practical side of the list that you unintentionally put in the second half.

Kate Galli 33:36

So C is to create a not to do list, you're not to do lists precedes your to do list, you know, we're all overwhelmed, we've all got more than you know, we think we can handle. And in terms of buying yourself some time that not to do list is just a first very practical step. And again, I think the things that maybe you resent, or maybe you're doing them out of habits, and they're not as efficient and effective. They're just something that you keep doing, or they're just something that you've really dreads nailed down on that not to do list because that's gonna give you more time for the weights and the meal prep and the time with the people you love that are more impactful and more fun.

Philip Pape 34:24

So this not to do lists, is it you mentioned things you resent, which I imagine is a great first place to start. Is there then a priority beyond that? Because I could imagine you have things you present and things you kind of resent and things you maybe just don't like and kind of move your way down. Is that how

Kate Galli 34:39

you would do? You were adults, there are some things that we resent, but we need to do because they get us out. They give us results or because they're really important to someone we really love. So it's a weighing up, isn't it like it's not a perfect world and we're all going to have to do some of those things that we don't love all that much. However, again, it's Just an awareness of what is within your control, I talk about overwhelm a lot. And I think overwhelm is scattered, lazy thinking, it's focusing on everything that there is that you need to do. And that could go wrong with a special focus on what is not within your control. So I'm just advising that we really narrow that focus only to what is within our control, and then, you know, get actionable with it. And again, I like the acronyms. I like the alliteration. When we're looking at everything that is on our list. I like ditch delegate, do some things, you can just ditch right off your list, they're not high value, some things we can delegate, which is amazing. And then there's always the next do. And

Philip Pape 35:47

these all tie in with some of the other things you told us about scheduling things in and 100%. And I also want to ask you like, is there a reframing step in there? Because when, when you talk about things we resent, maybe we think we resent it. And it's actually something that serves us serves our well being, even if it's not, like you said, doing it for someone else, or someone we love, even if it's for ourselves, should we be reframed, because I could see people saying, All right, well, I resent going to the gym, so I'm going to cut that out next. Well,

Kate Galli 36:15

again, you know, how's that working for you? And also, I look at the people who I really respect, and the people that I really respect, who are maybe really successful and really kind and impactful. They don't lead easy, comfortable lives. We're not we're looking to like have fun and joy and happiness and abundance. However, I think it would be jam boring if we were just cruising along, in super comfortable, never evolving, never stretching ourselves, never having challenges. So there is value in as long as there's value in that thing that you resent, or it's a little bit unpin. And it's probably okay to stay on the list.

Philip Pape 36:54

Yes. Do your squats. I don't care how tough they are. Yeah, that's on that list for me is just do them. Yeah. And if your legs don't seem to be responding, they will. Okay. So you're kind of like a stoic at heart, right? Because you talked about stoics. There you go. I could tell right, you're talking about doing things in your control, not worrying about the rest. But also we want to challenge and grow. And don't make it easy. But I think the love comes from it not being easy and getting through it. So you are your true stoic at heart.

Kate Galli 37:24

I appreciate that. Yeah, there's so much to learn from him. Yeah.

Philip Pape 37:28

All right. So I guess this is a pretty straightforward one, creating the not to do list, having those boundaries, say no to tasks that interfere with your goals. One other thing comes to mind. It was an exercise I did years ago, in like a career counseling sessions, I was with a counselor helping me with my job. And we did a matrix, four boxes. And on one one line was what you liked versus what you didn't like. And it was what you were good at versus not good at. Maybe there's some labeling there. But you get the idea, right? And I remember putting in one of the boxes, I am good at making PowerPoint slides, but I don't like it. And the counselor said, Well, do you do that often in your job. And I said, like 90% of the time my boss is asking me to make slides because I'm good at it. And I just don't like it. She says, Well, there's our opportunity to kind of see see what kind of change we can make. So it just reminded me of that of if you have a structure or some way to identify those things, go for it, jump in and see what kind of insights it gives you. 100%

Kate Galli 38:27

And I'm sure that wasn't the most high value use of your time. You might have been good at it. But I think he probably could have done more high value things better. For

Philip Pape 38:36

sure. For sure. I was very young at the time and like kind of shy and introverted. Yeah, if you can imagine. Yeah. All right. So moving on to the next one. A, you want to tell me what it is at 24

Kate Galli 38:49

hour digital detox. So I did this for a while and it was soot that impactful and full transparency, I need to welcome it back into my life. 24 hours might be too much. There's some of us it was a good place to start than me. And again, it was about setting those boundaries with the modern life that we now live. We're always on and maybe not just in a work sense. I think of teenagers and the fact that they're always on in relation to social media and communication and it just feels overwhelming, actually. So I recommend choosing the period of time that works for you. I used to go say 4pm on a Saturday and no devices like the phone for plans but not the scrolling or email before pm Saturday to 4pm Sunday. And the freedom in that knowing that that was me time. Yes, I could catch up with brands, but I wasn't doing brand am scrolling and being inflamed by it and I wasn't checking emails and it was just a non negotiable, scheduled free period of time is something I really, really recommend to myself again as well

Philip Pape 40:03

in the world didn't like burn down around you.

Kate Galli 40:07

That is a really good learning for your ego as well the world doesn't stop maybe have to be a tiny bit more prepared but even if you're not the world doesn't stop you're fine.

Philip Pape 40:18

It's it's like the Europeans right often take I don't know if this is the case in Australia but very long vacations like the four and six week long vacations. And there's a joke, at least in the US we use the out of office replies so liberally that even if you're out for like a half day, it's like, I'm out this afternoon, you know, I'll be back tomorrow. And in Europe, they're like, I'm on vacation by you know, it, dog. So exactly the detox, would you say that there's a, I guess it's if we want to have it stack or whatever the term might be time it with something where you'd be better off not using the device Anyway, time or

Kate Galli 40:59

a week, you know, this is my dedicated family time, friend time, whatever it is uninterrupted, they're gonna really respect and appreciate that, when you're not on your device. That's what I'd recommend. Yeah, not not your first working day of the week, that's not going to be so effective.

Philip Pape 41:14

Yeah, and I can imagine the other value of this is not not just for yourself in a vacuum. But also, if others are doing it with you, you can have deeper communication. And it's kind of like when the power goes out those fun times when the power goes out, and you just have candles, and no TV or anything. You're just sitting there like, Alright, I guess we're actually gonna talk.

Kate Galli 41:33

Yeah, 100%. And this is one of the many examples where the self care that you prioritize for yourself, has a super can potentially have a super positive impact on the lives of the people around you as well. You can be that positive influence, right?

Philip Pape 41:48

Yeah. I'm just thinking through like, my I always, these interviews are great, because they're always coaching sessions for me too, because I asked what the listeners trying to learn. And then I'm thinking how I can constantly improve my own life. Yeah, as a result of it. What there's a, there's a Netflix show, so it was a digital, that's very popular right now called Love is blind. I think they're like in season eight, or whatever. And my wife wanted to try watching it and it's very dry. It's very much drama. Okay. But the way it works is people are, are in these pods where they can talk to each other, and they can't see each other. And they have no devices for like a week. Oh, so they have no devices. And they have to, quote unquote, date with someone they can't see. By just talking to them.

Kate Galli 42:33

Right. Are they put together so they can turn off?

Philip Pape 42:37

pods with a wall? Okay. Yeah, so the love is blind, they supposed to fall in love with that emotional connection. And then they pick who they want to marry. It's crazy, right? It's drama. But you know, you do see it kind of reminded that, like, we just don't do that very often at all. Just sit and talk.

Kate Galli 42:55

100% Yeah, yeah.

Philip Pape 42:59

And so for those out there with with spouses, and you're busy and everything, I mean, just think about your own life. And even if there's a even if there's a daily 30 minute digital detox that could that could be helpful besides the 24 hours. So

Kate Galli 43:12

yeah, that's true. And if you pick the time, if it's dinner time, like Sacred Family dinners, fine, that could be very impactful.

Philip Pape 43:19

For sure. See, I'm just thinking do what works for you, right? Like, if you can't do the 24 hours, get 30 minutes, and then work your way up. 100%. All right, then number seven, tell us what that one is. This

Kate Galli 43:29

is probably this is one of my favorite, this is really realistic expectations for yourself and for the people you love. So often. And again, it comes back to the self talk and expectations, sometimes we set the bar so high for ourselves, that it might even just be too hard to even try, right. And so often just lowering the bar to raise our chances of success just being a little bit more realistic with our expectations for ourselves. And also, this has been such a massive ongoing learning for me. If mentioned, I'm plant based I am I'm an ethical animal rights activist, vegan as well. And my father is pretty much the anti vegan. And you know, it's been a big learning on how to manage a relationship with someone you really love when their value seems so vastly different to your own. And again, I had to have the house that working with for your conversation with myself when I was just angry and sad and frustrated all the time. And so wherever it is in your life, it could just be that you started a new healthier lifestyle, and the person you live with isn't on what they see as a health kick. They're like, Yeah, I'll just wait till that falls to the side and we go back to our normal habits and they're still bringing junk food into the house and, you know, you've got to focus on doing what's right for you while also having realistic expectations for that person you love, bearing in mind the relationship that you want to maintain and continue with them, if that's important to you, and it is to me, and to do your very best to meet that person where they are, rather than judging them in terms of, you know, they have the same information I have, and they're not making the same decision. Well, that might be right. However, they haven't read the same lives, they don't have the same values and beliefs and goals and life experiences. So they're coming from a really different place. And it's kind of naive and ignorant of ourselves of me to jump those high expectations that I might have put myself on them when they're working towards something, someone else. So for me for my and the reason it relates to self care, is when I wasn't practicing that, as I said, I was sad and angry and frustrated all the time. That is not how I

Philip Pape 45:57

want to live. Yeah, you took this in a direction I didn't even expect because what I you mentioned realistic expectations of yourself, but then the people you love Yeah, I thought that I think that's beautiful, because and it ties into what we were talking about earlier, where you're not going to agree on everything. And you effectively said that information doesn't equal context, right? Like, information is just facts out there. And yet, they're in a vacuum. And we as human beings have tons of context. And so like you said, even even if two people will eat the same dietary pattern, and they do have the same values in that sense, they have a different body size, they have a different, you know, training age, they have different, they might be different just demographics, different health issues, and so on. It goes on and on. And it becomes like a infinite set of possible differences. Yeah, so if there's an infinite set of differences, the only way you're going to agree with somebody 100% as if every infinite thing is the same. And that's impossible, right? Never happened. Never happened. So therefore, logically, like you said, Be the stoic. Don't worry about the things you can control and control the things you can. You also mentioned comments that people make about, like you said, anti vegan, that's interesting. So you're vegan, and I, and you deal with somebody who's vehemently against that as what you're saying, right? Pretty much. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Because that's tough, right? Because a lot of us will have people who just passively disagree, but like, what you're saying is they outwardly like, judge you for it. One of my clients in her checking the other day said, she went to a dinner, and they had all this great food. And one of the person said to her, you're probably going to eat something really healthy, or you're probably only gonna eat those vegetables, they get this, this judgment, judgment shining through. And the funny thing is, she's really fit and takes care of herself, but she eats almost anything she wants, because she's done it in a way that allows her to do that. And so it was, it was kind of a just a funny thing, that people put their own insecurities on us, let's be honest, they kind of wish they were there and haven't taken those steps yet. And so they're projecting, I imagine, to some extent, and so you know, the expectations you just can't have having as high as, as we think we might, is what you're saying,

Kate Galli 48:06

it comes back to the compassion and empathy, you know, that the person making the comment about her food was obviously feeling insecure about where she was at with her own health. And she was maybe feeling some judgment, even if it wasn't there. And the same with the loved ones in my life, they maybe have a fear that maybe there are some lifestyle changes that they could and should make, and they just don't want to go there. And so again, if we bring ourselves back to the love and compassion for that person, it just helps me be more calmer in an interaction. And again, that comes back to what's effective, rather than necessarily what is right I can be many times, I'm pretty black and white on what is right. Definitely what's aligned with my values and delights in ethics. However, what's right often isn't effective in the moment right now. So that's something I constantly have to remind myself of, as well. Yeah,

Philip Pape 49:05

pragmatism has its place for sure. You will we have a 10 and 1212 year old and one of the challenging things that comes up a lot lately is white lies and like the value like if it's is it ever okay to tell wildlife? You know, occasionally they understand that white lies people will say, but it's it's in the context of being pragmatic and not hurling, it's hurting somebody's feelings or trying to judge someone in a little complex, ethical things like that. So it's funny, we have to be role models like that. But what would somebody say? And this is kind of a generic question, but if someone is a little bit on the attack, like somebody who just disagrees with your values all the way and says something about it, and it's somebody you want to live with, you know, maybe this is lovely woman in your life that you're going to see all the time. How can we handle that? Well, what is something someone can say or how can they react in that moment? Do you think that energy

Kate Galli 49:55

you bring to the conversation is most important and when I first became vegan around Eight years ago, I did the animal rights activism on the street holding up the videos of the slaughterhouse footage and all of that for a number of years. And what amazed me is it didn't matter. I actually can't even think of any situations where this didn't work. When I stayed calm, and respectful, and full of compassion, it didn't matter the energy that someone approached me with the anger that they approached me with it that like sure people would walk past and say something horrific, and keep walking. The people who actually came up and wanted to have a conversation would match that energy that I wasn't putting out there. So if I was staying calm, and respectful, and if I was curious about understanding them, I wasn't like, yeah, you're wrong, this is horrific. I was like, So tell me more about that, you know, if I could get inside. And that was more fascinating as well. Like, it's really interesting to learn where someone's come coming from, how they formed their beliefs and what they've grown up with, then I happen to have the best conversations with those people. And it was amazing. And no one changed my mind. And I don't know if I changed anyone's mind. But we came away with respectful conversations. And again, they were seeds planted. And meat, they saw me as that happy, healthy, vegan, not that angry, vegan, I will say, the more you love someone, the harder this is to do. I think, and I have this conversation with people on my podcast all the time, it doesn't matter how it's certainly not about having all the facts and being persuaded persuasive in your argument, whatever you're arguing for. It's certainly not about that, I think there's an additional block and dairy out when someone is a relative, or someone you really love. And you probably have years, perhaps decades of history, and maybe they see you as the way that you were when you were 16, or whatever it is, it just takes a patience. And I guess a willingness to I kind of go for the low hanging fruit, right, and he had a coach and support the people who are open to it. And that's my heart, I love that. I'm not here to convince the people who aren't yet open to it. And sadly, that might be the people I love most, you know, what I do want to do is maintain a relationship with them. And to do that effectively, we need to again, focus on what we have in common. So that's something I really look to do. So

Philip Pape 52:25

stay calm and respectful. I love it. It's it's, again, I think of my daughters of like when they were young, and you want to discipline them. And sometimes the best way to do that is just be the calm person, you know, don't be fighting. And adults. Adults respond to that just as well. Thanks. Hey, yeah. Yeah, being curious. I love that. And maybe, maybe you will, because you're not trying to convince people, but maybe people will respect you more in having that attitude that, hey, you are more civil and open minded. And therefore I'm open to listening. And some of that by osmosis may come into their brain over time.

Kate Galli 52:59

You know, it's a it's a long game. And this comes back to self care, whatever we care most about in the world. It's not going to change overnight. I wish it would, it won't. However, if we are going to be in the game long term, we need to look after ourselves. And the journey though, along that journey needs to be happy as well. Great to be sustainable. It can't be steel this time. I'm

Philip Pape 53:22

all for happiness. So I agree. Okay, we have there's one more and I know, are you do you have a few extra minutes past the hour today? Oh, yeah,

Kate Galli 53:30

I'm good. Okay. I just want to make sure yeah, um, so a in self care is that easy, quick fixes. And, you know, again, this one just that fitted in well, and some of that other self care steps, there's a bit of digging deep, it's laying laying the foundation for your future success as we started with, there's a serious amount of work involved. However, the results pay off long term and sustainably. Sometimes you just want an easy quick fix, you know, it's like, Alright, let's do let's call a friend. Let's listen to a good song. Let's do a five minute workout. Let's go for a walk around the block or sit and let the sun hit our face for five minutes. Something really simple, low barrier to entry that you can do at any time of the day where you just feel a bit overwhelmed or a bit under the pump or just like you need a little bit of time for you.

Philip Pape 54:20

I love it. So this podcast with you wouldn't be a quick fix, although it's refreshing for me today to talk to you. But what would be an example of I mean, there's I'm sure there's a million but like the most popular ones, if somebody is maybe stressed, they're going about their day might be working might be doing something, what can they jump in and do what are your favorites? I'm

Kate Galli 54:39

a massive fan of nature, or even just sign if you can duck outside and do a walk around the block and if it's sunny, like absolutely amazing. Nature's it to me however for some people, it might be personal connection. So if you can make a phone call or fire up a few messages to people you love, and throughout the day, their replies are going to come back Whatever most resonates with you.

Philip Pape 55:01

Great. Yeah. And again, it's it's based on your values. And I'm looking at a sunny day here. And I know it's about 7am where you are. And so it's the afternoon here, but because of the time change, it's still it's light later now.

Kate Galli 55:14

Yeah,

Philip Pape 55:15

gotta get out after this podcast, you inspire me go out and get some sun. Me too. All right. I mean, I'm sure we could come up with all sorts of these, these micro habits and these quick fixes and which I love that one. Because sometimes we use quick fixes a negative like, well, we don't do quick fixes with our weight loss. We don't do quick fixes here. But sometimes that's exactly what you need when it's just, you know, efficient and effective in the short term.

Kate Galli 55:36

True, you're not always going to be the most stoic, disciplined, perfect version of you. We're working towards that. But sometimes you're just like, yeah, give me the quick fix.

Philip Pape 55:45

Yeah, go do some jumping jacks. All right. So all right. So I do like to ask this of all guests, Kay. And that is, is there any question that you wished I had asked? And what is your answer?

Kate Galli 55:56

One of the questions I love is the advice you would give to your younger self. And if I think of debilitating Lee shy, Kate of her teenage years before I got into the gym, or if I think of Kate, in her early 20s, who was full of false confidence, the advice I would give her and to many of our listeners is to back yourself 100% Potentially now more than ever, nothing certain you don't know what's coming up today, tomorrow, next month, next year, you can't have certainty and circumstances. And often sadly, you can't have certainty and other people, you can cultivate a certainty in yourself in knowing that you will come through for you. You are the type of person that you can trust. And so I call that to back yourself. 100% and that is what I wish younger May and many teenagers, you

Philip Pape 56:50

back yourself 100% Because it's the only thing you could have certainty in. And you are the type of person you can trust. Love it. Awesome. Thank you, Kate. This has been a blast. I mean, the time flew by I was actually surprised when I looked at the clock because I'm having a great time. But I hope you enjoyed yourself. And also, people want to know how to reach you. This was fantastic. Where can listeners learn more about you and your work?

Kate Galli 57:11

Best place is strong buddy green planet.com That you will find their health application podcast over 860 episodes deep via that also the plant positive journal that I broke last year. So yeah, Strong Body Green Planet across the socials. That is the best place to find me. And Phillip, this has been so much fun. I love your attitude and energy. You are so calm. I'm sure that's why your listeners keep coming back. And it's been an absolute blast. So thank you.

Philip Pape 57:42

Thank you so much yet I learned a ton from today. And I hope the listeners will realize that self care is potentially the most important thing that we have as a foundation, everything else if you can focus on this, all the other stuff just becomes easier and part of your life. So thank you so much for coming on. Kate.

Kate Galli 57:57

Amazing.

Philip Pape 57:59

Philip Pape 4/9/24 Philip Pape 4/9/24

Ep 162: Bodybuilding for Everyday Lifters Who Want to Build Their Dream Physique

Are you tired of feeling self-conscious about your body and ready to finally achieve that impressive, muscular physique you've always dreamed of?

What basic principles can guide your bodybuilding journey? What progress can you expect from bodybuilding over time? How does bodybuilding benefit your mental health?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) talks about bodybuilding and how it can help you achieve your dream body. You’ll learn the basics, like progressive overload, proper form, and the role of nutrition in supporting your goals. He also discusses the physical and mental benefits of bodybuilding, how to set achievable goals, keep track of your progress, and how to keep improving. You will learn practical tips and strategies to help you change your body and get the look you’ve always wanted.

Philip is also thrilled to announce that enrollment is now open for the new Wits & Weights Physique University (WWPU). This comprehensive fitness program, designed by Philip and his team, provides everything from personalized nutrition plans to diverse courses and monthly workout programs tailored to different goals. The program caters to all levels of fitness, with access to gym or home workout plans, and even a specialized lower body program for women. The community offers weekly live coaching and individual guidance.

To join, visit witsandweights.com/physique. It’s a monthly program that you can cancel within the first 21 days and get your money back. So, you have nothing to lose and much to gain, including muscle!

Today, you’ll learn all about:

6:26 Defining bodybuilding
10:47 Mental and emotional impact of bodybuilding
12:51 Bodybuilding vs. powerlifting
14:49 The sport of bodybuilding
16:20 Setting realistic goals
21:59 Individual response to training and nutrition
26:55 Equipment and resources for training
32:58 The principles of bodybuilding: progressive overload, volume, and frequency
38:32 Rep ranges and rest intervals: finding the optimal balance
42:36 Training to failure: pushing your limits safely
44:34 Mind-muscle connection: The power of visualization
47:58 Importance of form: safeguarding your body and progress
50:39 Tracking progress: monitoring and adjusting for growth
54:19 Motivation and mindset: Keys to long-term success
56:38 Embracing the journey: Finding rewards in the process
1:01:21 Outro

Episode resources:

Get New Physique-Focused Workout Programs Every Month

Episode summary:

In the world of fitness and bodybuilding, crafting your ideal physique is more than a physical challenge; it's a mental and holistic journey that encompasses a well-rounded approach to your health and lifestyle. The latest episode delves into this topic, offering listeners a wealth of knowledge and actionable insights that are key to transforming their bodies and lives.

Philip begins the conversation by emphasizing the fundamental principles of bodybuilding for everyday lifters. These include progressive overload, proper form, and the critical role of nutrition. However, the benefits of bodybuilding stretch far beyond aesthetics; they also encompass mental and physical health improvements. For instance, resistance training, which is a staple of bodybuilding, can bolster muscle mass, enhance strength and endurance, improve bone density, and mitigate the risk of chronic diseases. Furthermore, the discipline and dedication inherent in bodybuilding can lead to psychological benefits such as heightened self-confidence and resilience, which stem from consistent training and nutritional diligence.

Another vital aspect of bodybuilding is individualization. Philip stresses that while the principles of bodybuilding are universal, their application must be personalized to reflect an individual's fitness level, time availability, and resources. He underscores the importance of tailored training programs and realistic goal-setting, pointing out that significant physique changes can be observed within a year of dedicated effort, provided one follows a balanced exercise routine and maintains a focus on specific bodybuilding exercises for underdeveloped areas.

The discussion then turns to the practical considerations of setting up a training environment, whether it be at home or in a commercial gym. Philip recalls his previous advice on building the ultimate home gym and outlines essential equipment such as power racks and adjustable barbells. He also emphasizes the importance of implementing the principle of progressive overload, which ensures continuous muscle growth and strength gains by methodically increasing weights, reps, or sets.

Philip also covers the principles of optimizing bodybuilding programs, including understanding rest periods, the concept of training to failure, and the importance of the mind-muscle connection. He advises listeners to concentrate on the muscle being worked and to visualize its contraction during exercises, enhancing muscle activation and workout effectiveness.

One of the highlights of the episode is the focus on proper form and the importance of progress tracking. Philip shares his experience with adjusting his form to maximize muscle activation, a move that not only enhanced his performance but also ensured a safer workout. He advocates for form checks and coaching, available through supportive communities like Wits and Weights Physique University, to ensure proper technique and long-term progress.

Finally, the podcast tackles the psychological challenges of bodybuilding, such as plateaus in weight, nutrition, or training. Philip highlights the necessity of assessing and adjusting workout programs and nutritional strategies, the importance of protein intake, and the role of carbohydrates in muscle growth. He encourages listeners to set micro and long-term goals, find inspiration, and join supportive communities, emphasizing that setbacks are learning opportunities that can be overcome with resilience.

In summary, the episode is a comprehensive guide that not only provides the theoretical knowledge needed to embark on a bodybuilding journey but also gives listeners practical tools and strategies to achieve their fitness goals. By embracing the process and recognizing the rewards of the journey, listeners are encouraged to build not only a better body but also a better life.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Are you tired of feeling self conscious about your body and ready to finally achieve that impressive muscular physique you've always dreamed of. In this episode, we're diving deep into the world of body building. For everyday lifters like you and me, we're going to explore the principles the benefits the strategies to help you transform your body and life using this fun practice known as bodybuilding. Whether you're a complete novice or have some experience with lifting weights, get ready to learn everything you need to know to kickstart your bodybuilding journey the right way.

Philip Pape 00:34

Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of The Whitson weights podcast. In our last episode 161, the bioenergetic solution to low energy and chronic health issues with Jay Feldman, you learn about bio Energetic Health, Jay discussed the impact of maximizing cellular energy on your mental health, metabolism, longevity and more. He addressed modern diet, culture, stress and lifestyle in the context of your health, and offered practical solutions to adopt a sustainable energy boosting diet without relying on restriction or willpower. Today, I'm very excited for this one, actually, Episode 162 bodybuilding for everyday lifters who want to build their dream physique. We're exploring the world of bodybuilding, and providing you with a guide to help you build your dream physique, you're going to learn the fundamental principles of bodybuilding, I'm all about principles, methods are great. But understanding why we do these things gives you the power to do them in many different ways. We're going to talk about progressive overload proper form the role of nutrition in supporting your bodybuilding goals. We'll also delve into the benefits of bodybuilding, because I think there's something to be said, for understanding why we do this right beyond just the physical appearance. There's also the mental health, there's the overall physical health and how to set realistic goals, how to track your progress, and how to overcome plateaus and challenges along the way, all the things. Now whether you are completely new to bodybuilding, and by the way, this is bodybuilding with a little b as my coach Andy Baker would say, not the big B competitive physique sport, this is just everyday lifters who want to sculpt their physique. Or let's say you've been doing this for a while, and you're ready to take your training to the next level. As always, on this show, we share knowledge, we share strategies, so that you can transform your body to get that physique that you want. Now, before we dive in, there is probably a reason you are listening to this particular episode. Maybe it's because you've been working out, you've been working hard in the gym, but you're still not seeing the physique results you want. And I firmly believe that most people struggle, because of the conflicting advice because of the dieting advice out there that's quite restrictive. And all of this one size fits all templates and programs that just don't work for individual people for their individual lifestyle and response. So if you had a way to finally break through those plateaus, and achieve the strong, lean, healthy body wanted, without feeling like you're fighting against yourself, that's why I put out this episode. And also, this is the week to make that happen. Because I'm very proud to announce that we finally and officially opened enrollment for the new Whitson weights physique University, which is in my opinion, the I'm a little bit biased. In my opinion, it's the best solution out there. If you're looking to transform your physique, take your fitness nutrition to the next level, and do it in a way that feels right for you. And that's the key. My team and I have spent hundreds of hours putting this together so that it has everything you need. Okay, and we delayed and delayed until it had at least the things that I would have personally wanted in a program like this if I started four or five years ago, and the things you get are a done for you personalized nutrition plan, custom design courses, on everything from metabolism to training to menopause, fat loss to nutrition, okay, and if you liked the podcast, you're going to love those courses they are even more targeted and directly to those topics and issues. Every month we're going to drop monthly workout programs tailored to different goals. And all of this is tied to a private community where you can check in get one on one guidance from yours truly and join a live coaching call every week and since we are focused on body building and workouts today, I wanted to give you a quick rundown on that because in Whitson weights physique University you'll receive for brand

Philip Pape 05:00

New physique focused workout programs each month. So what you hear in the podcast today, we're gonna go through the whole all of the principles of all of this, how it's set up. And then the programs complement that because then the actual way that you execute those principles, we've got programs for novice and intermediate levels, people who have full access to a gym or limited home gym, or a travel, gym, and even a female lower body focused program in there, and I expect that we're going to expand on that as more people join the program. So if you want to apply everything you're going to hear in today's episode, to achieve the physique of your dreams to take control of your health and fitness journey, go to Witson weights.com/physique. Or click the link in my show notes to enroll in Whitson weights physique University. Again, that's Whitson weights.com/physique, or just click the link in my show notes. This is a monthly cancel anytime program. And I made sure to include a 21 day money back guarantee so you have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, including, of course, the gains with a Z. Okay? And by the way, if my voice sounds a little bit scratchy, or very smooth, like a radio DJ today, it's because I'm getting over a very, very minor head cold. And that that explains why I might sound like a different person not sure. All right, let's dive into today's topic bodybuilding for everyday lifters who want to build their dream physique. What is bodybuilding? That's, that's the question right? Before we dive in, what the heck is bodybuilding, I would define bodybuilding as either a discipline or a practice, however you want to think of it that involves using resistance training, to develop and sculpt your muscles for aesthetic purposes. Now to do that, there are things that you do along the way that are shared with what power lifters do with what various sports athletes might do with people who just want to get strong but don't care as much about their physique will do. There's a lot of commonality, especially early on in that journey. But bodybuilding, specifically when we use that phrase, right, besides conjuring up of course, enhanced bodybuilding, you know, Arnold, and Ronnie and Cutler and all those guys. It also might evoke Natural Bodybuilding of the physique sport, but we're talking about the little be bodybuilding, which is just sculpting your body not just getting bigger and stronger, even though I would argue that that is a prerequisite to sculpting your body. So we all want to have that. It's also making, you know, crafting a balanced and proportional physique that showcases your muscularity, and your symmetry and your definition. Now some of that might be less important to you like symmetry and having very specific small muscles pop in certain areas, that that might strike you more as like the physique sport side of it. But we all have something we want to look better on our body, let's just be honest, some of us have genetic disadvantages in certain areas. Some ladies and even men might have big or small buttons and they want to change those, they might have bigger small shoulders, a bigger small back, you might be more responsive in one part of your body to another. And so we talked about symmetry, that could just be as simple as, hey, I'm not too happy with this part of my body, whereas this part of my body is perfectly fine. How do I you know, address that disparity? At its core, though, it really is about building muscle. And building muscle does also require building strength. And so we're going to cover some of that as we go through here. But the whole point of this episode is to focus a little bit more on the physique side, it's kind of a lifestyle, right? This is a not you don't have to do this. You don't even have to do it for your health. But I think there are aspects of bodybuilding both mentally and physically that if you want to pursue them outside of the physique sport, which requires an extreme level of dedication that we are not going to address today, we're talking about the lifestyle piece of it. If you think of what it includes its rigorous training, it's carefully planned nutrition to get those results and those actually will benefit you anyway, when it comes to your health and fitness overall, even if you don't want to take it to some extreme level. Okay, so that's what I define as bodybuilding. Now, let's talk about some of the incredible benefits of bodybuilding that go beyond physical appearance, right? Regular training, regular bodybuilding training, which we're going to define a little bit what that is, as distinct from say powerlifting or just general strength training. Regular bodybuilding training can still significant still, it can significantly improve your health and fitness, because you are, you know, you're challenging your muscles with resistance exercise, which I think some everybody on the planet should be doing anyway, you will have to increase strength in order to do that because the the expression of strength and the increase of it over time is perfectly aligned with the same principles to increase muscle mass. Alright, it actually helps you on the endurance and cardiovascular side as well because you end up doing a little bit more volume and endurance type work. Obviously increases your muscle mass. It enhances your

Philip Pape 10:00

For lack of a better word, functional capacity, right? Just your capacity to do things in the world and makes everything easier. We're not talking about getting big, big balloon muscles that are useless. No, this those are those old tropes are out the window here we're talking about getting strong and looking good. Nothing wrong with that. And we know there's tons of research that shows that resistance training in general improves everything, it improves bone density, it reduces the risk of chronic disease like obesity, type two diabetes, and it promotes better cardiovascular health. I mean, there are times you know, there are countless individuals, including many of my clients who because they have muscle mass, because they resistance train, they have very, very healthy bloodwork, even if they carry a little bit of extra weight. And this is why I think the idea that we are not so much overweight, as under muscled is a very important concept. All right now, there are more benefits than that. Right? Those are the physical benefits. I also think bodybuilding can have a positive impact on your mental and emotional well being. Again, if we're not talking about the extreme side of the sport of bodybuilding, which can lead into a negative territory, though it doesn't have to just the general day to day everyday bodybuilding, let's think about it. Okay. And I talked to Steve Hall about this, he was great. I love his approach. And other guys that I've spoken to like Dr. Eric helms who are natural bodybuilders, they have this sense of discipline and dedication. All right, sometimes we use discipline as it is a dirty word. But it's sort of a honed discipline that becomes habitual, not something forced, you know, it's not like you have to be restricting yourself to be disciplined. It just is what you become right? You're dedicated, you're committed, you have this consistent training and nutrition approach. And it develops that strong sense of self discipline, right. And that translates into other areas of life. You can call it whatever you want, you can call it resilience, you can call it, what sort of grit, right perseverance. And as you start seeing the progress in your physique, because you are getting these wins along the way, you're likely going to get a boost in your self confidence and your self esteem. So I love the combination of all of these, I think, an approach that focuses on some strength and physique development can be super healthy for you mentally and physically, and expand into other areas. All right, and that is above and beyond the benefits of just exercise, right, like moving and lifting weights, you get the endorphins, you reduce stress, you reduce anxiety, symptoms of depression, you have this more positive outlook on life, because you can accomplish these things with your body. It translates to your mind, right? I could go on and on. I love this stuff. Okay, so and I think there's benefits a bodybuilding lifestyle gives you beyond just trying to hit numbers or trying to like, you know, if you're a power lifter, and you're just focusing on the numbers, I love that I love competition. But I think there's an extra added benefit for life in general, when you kind of combined the whole thing. So now, this is a good segue to briefly talk about bodybuilding versus powerlifting. All right, both of these are lifting weights, but they're different goals. There different training approaches, bodybuilding focuses on developing this well proportioned, visually appealing physique, with an emphasis on muscle size, right size, symmetry and definition, not so much maximum force and strength. That's where powerlifting comes in. Now, powerlifting is a competitive sport. But it's also just like bodybuilding has a lifestyle type, you know what I'm saying? Like you can, you can lift, kind of as a power lifter, without being a competitive power lifter, meaning you focus on the big lifts, the squat, the bench, and the deadlift, maybe also the overhead press, you're trying to push up your maximum numbers, you're gonna go after that, at the some trade off of potentially your physique along the way, because you want to gain a lot more weight, and things like that, which is totally awesome, because at the end of the day, there's a lot of overlap. Like even bodybuilder is going to have to spend time building muscle gaining weight and being, you know, slightly fluffy or soft in certain phases before they cut and reveal that muscle. power lifters, though, are not really concerned with aesthetic is the way I'll put it. Their ultimate goal is to lift as much weight as possible. There is a middle ground though it's called Power building. Some people don't like that term, I'm perfectly fine with it. It makes a lot of sense. powerlifting and bodybuilding. You combine the two, what do you get? Well, you get a type of training. That's a lot of fun, because you're pushing some max weight. And you're also doing some, you know, muscle mass and direct work to build your physique pay. It's great. Best of both. And I've run programs that incorporate all of these. And there's no right or wrong for you. It's just what is your goal. And by the way, you can switch between them. You can spend six months just going after numbers, then you can spend six months just doing bodybuilding. Or you can spend six months doing Power building and combining the two. All right. That's what I love about all this. There's plenty of flexibility you never get stuck in a box. Now. I do want to take a quick tangent and talk about the sport of bodybuilding just for a second. Now I know very little to nothing about enhanced bodybuilding.

Philip Pape 15:00

Other than, you know, the guys look like freaks, we are fascinated by that. I am a junkie for all those documentaries about, you know Arnold and all the other classics, the guys from the heyday of bodybuilding, I love that stuff. Recently though, there's been more emphasis on natural bodybuilding, just like in powerlifting, there's been more, you know, raw and unequip powerlifting focus lately. And with Natural Bodybuilding, the idea of course, is to build the best physique you can the most muscular physique you can without performance enhancing drugs, it's tested, right, you're not using anabolic steroids, growth hormone, insulin, any of that, and relies solely on your own effort, proper training, nutrition and supplementation, along with, of course, your genetic potential, which, which is going to be a limiting factor for some people, you have to start fairly young, and train hard and avoid injury and all these other things, it is definitely a sport to be admired for those who are in it. It's also very extreme, and some people have come out of it, or some they get it. Others have it. So really depends, right. And, you know, the I would say the natural approach, at least is going to be healthier from you know, because you're not taking these drugs, it's going to be more sustainable to the sport overall. And but it also, you've got to think of your long term health and well being over short term gain, if that is your goal. So it comes down to what your goal is. And that's a great segue into my next, you know, I've got my notes really well organized today. Next segue is on setting realistic goals. So we've got the basics down, what is bodybuilding? What are the benefits of it? How is it distinct from powerlifting? And how do we get started? All right, before you just jump in and just do a program, because that's one of the problems people face is cookie cutter programs that somebody else is doing, they look at their results, they think, Okay, I'm going to follow the program, and I'm going to get that same result. The first thing we have to understand is it's got to be tailored to you. And you have to start from where you're at. That means what, you know, what is your current fitness level? How much time do you have available to go to the gym and do it consistently? Right? Listen, I've run six day bodybuilding programs, if I took a brand new client who never trained and say, Hey, why don't we just jump into six days a week? Are you crazy? Like maybe they'll do it with a lot of sacrifice. But that is not the way to sustainable habits. So for most beginners, I'm gonna start with three days, you know, three days is totally doable for most people. In fact, I would say it's a minimum, unless you're a kind of a special population, you're very old, for example, or some sort of injury history, or you just absolutely can't fit it in. I would say three days is good. And then also what are your resources? The other thing about goals is not just starting where you're at, but seeing where you're going to be, and having realistic expectations. First thing, is it realistic for you to create an amazing looking body? That is strong, fit and healthy? Yes, I can say that emphatically, no matter who you are. Now, will that look like you want it to look? By? By number one any point in time in the rest of your life? Meaning? Can you look like that supermodel you admire? If you don't have those genetics, or that shape, or that height? Or whatever? The answer is, maybe maybe not. So that I can answer for you, what I can say is that, based on your starting point, you you're going to experience a certain level of change over a certain period of time. And so for most people, when they first get started the first month, you're probably not going to see much physical change, you might feel a massive physical change as you get stronger. But you may not see much of a physical change until about a month, but as early as a month, you can start seeing a change, you know, even three to four weeks. Because this is where you get past the initial

Philip Pape 18:39

phase of your body just getting used to the movements, neuromuscular adaptation, all of that, and then you start building muscle mass, and you start to see that and if you're combining it with a good nutrition program, and you're losing some fat as well, that's going to accelerate that visual process, I would say after three months, you should see some meaningful difference. Now, again, meaningful doesn't mean you got to your quote unquote, dreams physique, in three months, it depends on where you're starting at. And most people who have not been focusing on their fitness, they probably have 2030 pounds of excess fat, they're not in great shape. You know, cardiovascular health has a lot to be desired, and you haven't really lifted very much or very effectively. And so it's going to take longer than three months to get to anything close to what you want in terms of at least a starting quote unquote, Dream physique. I would say one year is a solid benchmark to plan for, to look back and say, Wow, okay, I've spent, you know, nine months building muscle and then I did a three month cut. As an example. That's a good one year Periodization Program. You should see a pretty decent change. You know, a new lifter a male can probably gain, you know, 10, maybe 15 pounds of muscle in that first year. If they do it right, let's say 10 And then they lose maybe 10 pounds of fat. You've just gained a massive improvement in your you know leanness and your look in that first year, even if you're just doing

Philip Pape 20:00

Basic powerlifting style strength training. But you can enhance that a little bit with some extra body building type work, especially for the areas that you are deficient in, you know, like, if it's your shoulders or your butt or your calves or biceps, or what have you. I'm gonna say five years and 10 years are the next two big points. So you might, you might say, Wow, go from one year to five years, that's like a huge time to wait, well, what are we waiting for, we're not waiting for anything, we are enjoying this process along the way, I want you to get it into your skull. Because it's something that took me a long time to learn that we're not trying to get the thing we look like in five years, we're trying to have a lifestyle that we really, really enjoy on a day to day basis, where we enjoy how we move, and how we eat, and how we think and how we feel and all those things along the way. And it never really feels like a sacrifice, it feels like something we are destined to do something that is aligned with our values, something that we look forward to every day in a positive way. And yeah, it's gonna be hard. But hard is different than, you know, misaligned is what I'll say heart is different than misaligned. Okay, so let's put it this way. I've been training hard now for about four or five years, effectively after I did, like 10 years of CrossFit that wasn't effective. And I'm finally getting the physique that I'm like, You know what, I'm getting pretty happy. Like, for a 43 year old guy, I never thought I could even be anywhere close to this, you know, visually or functionally. Even I've had injuries and I've had back surgery, I've had shoulder surgery, and you know, all the interruptions of life that we get. And I'm not trying to be a competitor, I just try to enjoy the process. And as I go along, make sure that I'm collecting the data on is it working for me? Is it working for me physically, visually, and mentally? And emotionally? All the things right? So I probably be coming up and fight on my five year mark, say, this year or next year? And I look back on that. And I'll say, Well, where did I come in those five years? And it's an incredible amount of transformation. It really is. It's from soft and fluffy too, you know, got a little bit of definition and chiseled areas of my body that I'm proud of. But can I get more? Yeah, Heck, yeah. And so the next point after that, it's probably the 10 year point, within 10 years, most people can hit their genetic potential, if they've been doing it consistently. That is what I'm trying to talk about with realistic expectations. Building a remarkable physique takes time, it takes consistency, it takes patience. But if you are doing the right thing, now, you're gonna go as fast as you can go. And if you're doing the wrong thing, you just will never get there. That's important, you hear what I just said, if you're doing the right thing, you're gonna get there as fast as you're gonna get there, right? Assuming we avoid, you know, the overnight quick fixes, comparing yourself to others who've been training for many years, we focus on the progress, we focus on the wins along the way, you're actually gonna get there as fast as you can get there. Right? That what's the phrase, the fastest path is the long game or something like that? You know, doing it right is the fastest path. So where am I going with all this? When it comes to realistic expectations? First start where you are today? What's your current fitness level? How much time do you have? And what are your resources? We'll get into some of these things specifically. And then where can you be what are your milestones along the way in the future of where you can be like set those expectations, and the sobering realization that it really could take years to get to the final physique can be flipped, reframed into a positive of okay, then, you know what, I want to enjoy what I'm doing every day along the way, then. And so let's make the process as great as it can be. All right. So speaking of where you're at, and you as an individual, every individual is going to respond differently to both training and nutrition. And this is complex, there are a lot of factors, the more people I interview on the podcast, about gut health, about alcohol, about hormones and menopause, you know about genetics, like there are so many factors. Now they are not excuses, right? And there are a lot of silly things out there. There are a lot of silly concepts like body types. I think it's silly. The ectomorph mesomorph, endomorph thing like it's popular in bodybuilding culture, but I think the those types of things are just oversimplifications. There's no need to pigeonhole yourself into these categories. I don't think it's scientifically validated. And so instead of doing that, how about you just focus on your body's unique response to the things you do? You do something you see what happens? You collect that data, you change, you do something else? You see what happened? You collect the data? Oh, that worked? Well. There's my win. Awesome. motivates me to do that again. Does that make sense? So this involves experimenting with different exercise programs, not program hopping. So just what I want to put that caveat out there not. Oh, it didn't work this week. So I'm gonna change next week. Oh, it didn't work this. No, no, I want you to give any workout program at least I'm gonna say, eight weeks. If especially if you're new to this, give it eight weeks, give it give it 12 weeks, before you make any sort of determination on whether it actually worked or not. Right. There is a time component to it. We can't be impatient. But it's, you know, what kind of routines work for you what rep ranges work for you. And by work for you. I mean, not only

Philip Pape 25:00

Do you respond to them physically? But mentally? Do you enjoy those rep ranges? Do you look forward to them? Do they push you, you know, there's a lot of psychology in this there really is. And there's a wide range of possibilities for any given person. When it comes to bodybuilding, when it comes to powerlifting, there isn't as wide a range, there are different ways to train and get there, you're still trying to go for Singles Doubles triples, when it comes to bodybuilding, you have a lot more flex in there. All right, and what works for you may not work for the next person. And what works for the person that you saw on Instagram may definitely not work for you, you never know. Be willing to learn about yourself and make adjustments based on your progress and your goals, which means you're gonna have to track that progress, which will we will talk about today. But factors like genetic variations, how old you are male female, right? Females tend to recover better than males, for example, and can handle more volume. But that's a generalised statement that may not be true for you. Do you have prior training experience? Were you the guy in their 20s, who was like already bodybuilding and jacked and then you let yourself go for 20 years? Now you're getting back into it? You know, you may respond more quickly to training. What's your nutritional status? You know, are you training fasted? Do you do low carb versus moderate carb? How's your sleep quality? How's your stress management? How's your overall health? You know, do you have any diseases? Do you have any autoimmune conditions, I could go on and on. But all of these influence your body's response. And so all we can do is say you are one person that's quite unique. The principles will apply to everyone. But the methods may have to change for you. All right. And I mentioned sleeping here. If I were to pick any one of these things, and have one of the biggest impact on your ability to be successful in bodybuilding and physique development, it's getting enough sleep. Yeah. Besides training, which is kind of an obvious, right? It's getting enough sleep for muscle recovery, for growth for health. All right, I just wanted to just go on a quick little tangent because it's not sexy, but it's super important. Okay, so we talked about your individual response. One of the other things that is going to determine what you do is your equipment and resources, like, where are you going to train, because this happens to be one of the biggest excuses people have, I can't get to the gym, the gyms too far I don't have the equipment, I can't afford blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right. And the two most common options here are either you set up a home gym, or you join a commercial gym. And they both have pros and cons. And once you pick one, you've got to make sure that thing has everything you need. And if it doesn't have everything you need, that you know how to make adjustments. So your budget is of course important here your space if it's at home, and then your preferences. I mean, do you want to commute an hour to the gym? Probably not. But if it's five minutes away, hey, what about your schedule, if you would like to be able to train twice a day for 20 minutes instead of once a day for 90? Maybe you need a home gym? Okay? Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of weights and weights. I started Whitson weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like the lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to Whitson weights.com and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today. I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. And if we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 28:55

I'm a huge fan of a home gym, but I understand that everyone can have that for various reasons. It's about as convenient as you could possibly imagine. Because it's right there. You can just hop out of bed and go workout. Well, after you eat. Okay, it gives you a lot of flexibility. It gives you privacy. I mean, ladies, you know, there's the whole gym intimidation factor there are there's the guys and ladies the annoying factor of just dealing with people you know, like, I mean, a lot of people in gyms are great people, but some not so much. So it depends. The downside is you know, the money to invest in home gym, of course. And it takes a lot of actually build a gym that has enough equipment, variety, especially when we talk bodybuilding. And you're like, Well, what do I do for leg press and Hack Squats? What do I do for other leg type development or back work or lat pull downs, etc, right? The mind starts to go to like how many 1000s of dollars you're gonna have to spend, but it doesn't have to be that way. Now on the other hand, a commercial gym gives you access to a ton of equipment, right? And maybe personal trainers, but most of them aren't that great. I'll be honest, but maybe you'll find one. It could be motivating for you to be around other people.

Philip Pape 30:00

that people love working out with others and the atmosphere and the energy. And then the cost is usually kind of a pittance. You know, it's pretty low for most gyms unless you go to a really good like lifting gym, and then they're gonna charge you what it's worth, they may charge you 150 200 300 a month, I don't know, like, kind of like a CrossFit gym or powerlifting gym. And then you know, dealing with the one thing I hate the most about the gym is just having to fight for equipment, like if you go during peak hours. So if you opt for a home gym, you get my notes here, if you opt for a home gym, then I actually covered all this way back in episode eight, early days, early days, I don't listen to my own episodes from back then I just can't You know, I feel like I've developed a lot since then I can't do it, but you might enjoy it. And the information in there is solid, Episode Eight, build the ultimate home gym to make gains save time and be consistent where I talk all about the equipment that goes into a home gym, the amount of space it takes up, why you would want certain equipment and so on. Again, I don't know how well it's aged for some of the details in there. I've probably added to my home gym since I made that episode. But the basics are going to be a power rack, an adjustable bench, a barbell plates, and dumbbells. Those are the basics. Beyond that there's all sorts of machines and equipment you can invest in. If I had to pick one thing, I would add a lat pulldown cable type machine. And if you have a power rack that allows for all sorts of attachments, usually there is a lat pulldown that can go on the power rack that has a top and bottom cable positions. And that opens up a lot more and then beyond that you can get into Okay, do I need some sort of leg machine or pressing or like PEC deck type machine when you get further on and you have the money for it? Alright, so that's all I'm gonna spend on like where you train because the commercial gym? Well, so that's not all I'm going to spend on that real quick commercial gyms vary quite a bit. And the first thing I always ask people to do, they have a rack and barbells because if they don't have that, I feel like you're severely limiting yourself for some very effective movements. Even though you can get all your workouts done on machines and cables. I feel like both effectiveness and just pure joy and fun of getting strong and building muscle requires a barbell in there. Okay, that's just my opinion. So, there are plenty of commercial gyms that do but then there are some that just don't have that some that don't allow deadlifting some that don't allow chalk there's like all these rules that I just frankly don't like and it's why I have a home gym, but totally up to you and you can still make it work. And by the way, the workout programs that I dropped in Whitson weights physique University every month, I've got an entire list of exercise substitutions for every type of body part, any any lift, you need to find a substitute for you can

Philip Pape 32:40

whether you know it's bands, dumbbells, kettlebells bodyweight that's, that's kind of the way it's done. And bodybuilding gives you that freedom that you're not stuck in having to do this exact one movement. You know, if it says barbell row, you don't have a barbell. Okay, do one arm dumbbell rows, do two arm dumbbell rows, you know, do seated cable rows, there's a million ways to go. Alright, so the next thing I want to talk about is some of the principles of bodybuilding itself, that drive the programming. Okay, the first one is the absolute key to muscle growth. And that's progressive overload, okay, we can't say it enough on this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this to the cows call come home, the idea of gradually increasing the demands placed on your muscles over time, to force them to adapt and grow stronger, and larger, stronger and larger. And you achieve progressive overload. By increasing some training variable, the weight lifted, the number of reps, the number of sets, right, it just the overall volume in some way. So if you're currently working out in a way that has you lifting the exact same 10 pound dumbbells, on the same movements, time and time again, for weeks and months on end, you're not doing it right, that is not progressive overload. Progressive overload is you did five reps at 10 pounds. Now you can do six reps at 10 pounds, or you did five reps at 10 pounds. Now you're gonna do five reps for 12 and a half pounds. That's it. And if you're not doing that, over time, in general, and getting in general, stronger in general, and most movements here not getting stronger or building muscle. All right, I mean, do I have to point to studies and meta analysis that show this we know this is the key factor in maximizing what we call muscle hypertrophy, increasing the size of your muscles. So make sure to consistently challenge yourself and strive for progress. And the reason I start off with this is first of all, it is the key principle. But second of all, you may already be running a program now and training in a certain way where the program's pretty good. You're just not executing it in a way that allows for progressive overload. Or the other scenario I see. Ladies you know you are is you're following a youtube program, trainer or an app where every workout is different, you know? Yeah, your sweat gets up, you move a lot. You maybe you're using dumbbells

Philip Pape 35:00

Maybe you're using barbells. Maybe it's like a CrossFit style thing where you've got barbells involved. But it's always different. It's kind of random, and you're not actually doing, let's say, the front squat on Monday every week and progressing the way you're doing like a front squat Monday, then maybe two, Thursday's later, you're doing, you know, a back squat, and it's kind of random. Okay? That's also not progressive overload, you may get incrementally stronger over the years, but you're not going to get strong in a time efficient way to actually build your physique. So progressive overload. The second principle is the, I guess, it's a combination of principles, but its volume and frequency. All right. training volume is really the total amount of work that you perform in a workout session or a training cycle. And manipulating this piece is going to help you not only with muscle growth, but also preventing plateaus and helping with recovery like don't so that you don't overtrain. And if you're a beginner, you can handle a decent amount of volume and frequency. And then over time, the volume is going to naturally go up with the progressive overload. And that is why sometimes the frequency has to come down as you get stronger, right. So it's kind of these variables all depend on each other in some way.

Philip Pape 36:20

And, you know, frequency is how often you train a particular muscle group, right. So that's like, if you squat Monday, Wednesday, Friday, that's your frequency of the squat. And a higher frequency is generally more beneficial, right? They give you, they give you more opportunity for muscle protein synthesis for muscle repair. But there's something pushing against that frequency, and that is your recovery. So when you're a beginner, you can squat three days a week, and you recover within 48 hours. As you get stronger and stronger, the amount of stress placed on your body is so great that you can't recover in two days, it might take three, it might take five, it might take two weeks, the stronger you get. And that is where balancing frequency and recovery frequency and volume prevents overtraining. And is is one of the core principles of effective programming, you know, on this curve, as you get stronger and stronger over time, it becomes a little trickier over time, it really does. But that's also at the point where you've developed your form and your skill and you're ready to learn these more advanced strategies. And there's a lot of great researchers out there that that look at this stuff. I mean, you've got like Brad Brad Schoenfeld, who, a lot of his studies that he where he worked with other researchers have looked at hypertrophy in the context of frequency, for example. And we generally find that, you know, again, more frequencies better, but only to the point where it doesn't impede recovery. And there are high frequency camps out there that that, like, subscribe to, you know, five day per week type training, where you change the, you change the movements, but hit similar muscle groups, and you're hitting them from different angles. And there is some merit to that. But I, I would generally favor the stress and the intensity over the frequency like I'd rather you, you hit it hard and train hard. And by that I mean like within a few reps shy of failure, proximity to failure is where we call it, then just get a whole bunch of volume and frequency because I feel like that can lead to more injury problems with recovery. And it's also from a practical standpoint, hard to fit into most people's schedule to like consistently have a high frequency for certain movements. But I'm not 100% against it depending on who you are and how your body individually responds. Alright, so we covered progressive overload, we covered volume and frequency. The next thing I want to talk about is rep ranges and rest intervals. Okay? So rep ranges are just the number of reps you perform in a set. And when you're thinking bodybuilding, most people think something like eight to 12, I would say I would expand that range. And think of bodybuilding as anything from four up to like 20. Okay, beyond 20. From a practical standpoint, even though it can work for hypertrophy, it's just it takes a lot of time, it's mentally very hard to work in that range, there's a whole bunch of reasons, I would just generally avoid that. When we get down to the four or less now we're talking powerlifting, you know, maximal force production strength, but I kind of include like four or five, six reps in the bodybuilding regime, because I think there is a place for kind of working on the edge of power building that's still bodybuilding. And I've done this myself and my coach, Andy Baker has a way of programming using top sets and back offsets, where you kind of reduce the volume, but you get more stimulus. And you cover two different rep ranges every time you do a movement. So you might do a, let's say, overhead press, and you'll do sets of you'll do one set of four to six, followed by one set of six to eight. And so the set of 68 Of course the load comes down, but you get more volume. And in both cases, you're still stressing the muscle in different ways and you're pushing close to failure.

Philip Pape 40:00

During all of that, so when we say what is optimal for hypertrophy, it's a wide range, it's, it's like, you know, five to 30 reps, but we're going to narrow that to, what did I say, I think I said four to 20. Because I like having that four in there. I don't know something about four rather than five sticks with me here, but it doesn't matter. It's close enough. And so having said that, you should incorporate a variety of rep ranges. And it depends on the muscle group, it depends on the movement, right? Like, stiff like deadlifts, or Romanian deadlifts or something like that, you're probably not going to work in very high rep ranges on those, you're gonna go pretty heavy, pretty low rep range. Whereas, you know, lateral raises, or seated polls, or even lat pull downs, or like bicep curls thing, you know, smaller muscle groups that say, more isolation work, you might work in 812, even 15, if you're doing calf raises, if you do an AB work, you might be in the 15 to 20 range. So the other aspect of this is mental, like you don't want to get bored. So part of this is just fun, just mixing things up. We're not even getting into advanced techniques today, but like all the intensity techniques, drop sets and all that that's a whole other thing, right. And I think I covered that in another episode about progressive overload, to make it even more interesting. But going back to Okay, so we talked about rep ranges, let's talk about rest intervals, because I think some people don't pay enough attention to how long they're resting between sets. And I think it can greatly impact the intensity and volume of your workout. Because if the rest interval is too short, yes, you're going to have more of this what we call metabolic stress and the fatigue on your muscles. But that can be a negative, if you're trying to get more work in, in the subsequent sets, it can be a positive, if you're trying to save time and deliberately push your muscles close to that fatigue. So

Philip Pape 41:48

it depends on what you're lifting. If you're, if you're lifting heavier weights, you're lifting lower rep ranges, I'm gonna go for more two to three minutes, if not even higher, three to five or even higher, if we're talking like very heavy deadlifts, where you're taking long breaks, and all of that stuff can fit in a bodybuilding program. And that's why I want to mention them. Because there's generally a sliding scale, you know, the bigger heavier compound lifts, longer rest period, the medium ones are kind of in the middle. And then the the really small stuff, or the intensity techniques are going to be in the on the lower end. But the point is, pay attention to it. Because if you're missing reps, or you feel like you haven't progressed on your progressive overload plan, are you simply cutting the rest period too short and too fatigued to actually hit what you would have hit? If you had rested? Long enough? That's what I would, I would say you should ask yourself, Okay. Um, the next principle is going to be training to failure. Alright, so why did I leave this till toward the end of the principles? No reason other than I thought, sometimes I sometimes I put this before progressive overload, because it's hard to progressively overload unless you are training, right. But I wanted to establish the principle of progressive overload first, in this episode, and then tell you some of the ways we make that successful. Okay. So training to failure is just performing a movement or an exercise until you cannot complete another rep with proper form. So forget cheater reps, I'm talking about proper technical form. Now, training to complete failure, what we would call zero, our IR reps and reserve or what we would call 10 RPE. Rating of perceived exertion, same thing, zero reps left can be a very good way to stimulate muscle growth, especially for isolation work. It should be used sparingly, in my opinion, because of the chance of over injury and, you know, overtraining and injury. So I think most of you should be working in what we would call the nine RPE, or eight RPE. Rain, so eight would be like two reps from failure, nine would be one. Again, for those of you who just can't stand that I'm seeing RPE, so many times I get it, it's just another, it's just another damn way to say the same thing. Alright, so one to two or two to three reps short of failure is probably good for almost everything, with the exception of very small direct work, or you could go to failure, or if you're using an intensity technique, and you go to failure. And then on the other hand, we have like, if you're doing big barbell back squats, deadlifts pressing, you might be three rep shy of failure, you know, two to three reps shy of failure. And that's all that means. Proximity to failure, gets you close enough to get the effective, stimulative reps that causes muscle growth. If you stay in that regime, you'll be great because then you'll be able to progress over time. Okay. So that's a very important principle. The next principle is a big one in bodybuilding. And that is the mind muscle connection. This is the conscious focus, the mindfulness and the control. You have over the muscle that you're training during an exercise. And everyone does it differently. But I think of it as actively thinking about the target muscle

Philip Pape 45:00

and visualizing it contracting. And you're all you're doing is you're creating a visual picture of time, what you're doing to what you're seeing in your mind. And there's this thought that you can then enhance the activation of the muscle and improve the quality of those reps by doing so. And I highly encourage it, because what you'll find is, you'll surprise yourself, you'll realize that those lat pull downs you've been doing for years, aren't actually hitting the lats. If you really think about it, I would suggest turning off the music, turning off the distractions. If you're in a public gym, put some like headsets on so you can only hear your own swirl of the ocean in your head. And really just squeeze think, you know, focus, be mindful and and try it out. Try it out with every movement and see if you don't learn something about yourself, and how to do that movement a little bit more effectively. I'll tell you, as long as I've been lifting, I still do this and surprised myself. So the other day I was doing Romanian deadlifts, and watching back on the video, and my coach also told me this, he's like, You know what, you're starting to get a little bit less tight in your back then you used to be with the rep, you get a little bit sloppy, right, not rounding my back or anything, but it's just this tiny, less tightness in my back. And I saw that I saw what he was talking about. He said, All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my RDLs. And I'm going to really look up right and squeeze my shoulder blades together and let the bar hang. And then as I go down, really focus on not, you know, breaking my knees, so that I feel that stretch in the hands, the hamstrings. And instead of allowing the bar to touch the ground, I deliberately kept it from touching the ground just a tad. Right. Because I have enough I have enough flexibility and range that it will touch the ground on an RDL even when done properly. But I deliberately kept her from doing that. So it stretched my hamstring all the way to lengthen position and just kind of held it there. And then came back up with the rep. And I squeezed my back all of this was in my mind as a form of mind muscle connection. And when I was done, the video confirmed I had tightened up my back. But more importantly, where did I feel the soreness, I felt it in my obliques and my lats kind of the where I didn't feel it was in my low back. And of course, I felt that in my hamstrings as well, that's where you're supposed to feel it. But in terms of your back, and your isometric contractions and all that, I felt it kind of around my trunk. And it felt safer than I had been doing it before, which felt like it was fatiguing my lower back too much. And I noticed the difference, because then I did not feel as sore in my lower back later in the day. And the next day after doing the articles that way, using mind muscle connection. So it's a very valuable and functional tool. In my opinion, it is not, whoo, it's not just a bro thing. It's a real thing that can really help you with muscle activation. And potentially then greater muscle growth because you're doing it right and you're really hitting the muscle and you're not wasting your time in the gym. All right, another thing that's important, which I can segue nicely into now is form I just talked about my form of the RDL. Maintaining proper form during all your exercises has got to be way up there on the list. Especially if you're newer, you know, once you get into it, and you become proficient at the skill of lifting you, you know, form tends to be less of an issue. But it should always be on your mind regardless. And I like having a cue every time I do a lift. So what even if it's like leg curls, I still want to think of one thing that I'm engaging with, to ensure proper form. Because the silliest little movements could be the ones that hurt you. Right, you could go throw a safety squat bar on your back and use it to do calf raises. But because you're not really thinking about having that tight back, you're thinking about your calves, all of a sudden, you're putting all this pressure on your spine and now causes a back issue. And you were just doing a simple calf raise, right? It's very important. Okay, we've got to take this stuff seriously, folks, we really do. This is what makes the journey fun. I mean, in my opinion, I don't know about you, I love personal growth and learning and getting better at something. And this is this is what I mean by enjoying the process and not worrying about the final physique results. Because if you get this process down, oh man, your results. And women, ladies, man, results are going to be amazing. You're just going to look back and say, Wow, that's it was totally worth it totally worth the journey. And so proper form is great for muscle engagement, right? It's also part of that mind muscle connection we talked about, it's going to prevent injury. This is maybe the number one reason to do it. And then you're gonna be able to progress long term because you won't be out of the gym. You won't be missing reps, you know, you'll be hitting the correct muscles. The converse of that is poor form, right? Which can lead to I'll say muscle imbalances. I hate that term. But but it actually can you know, if you're doing things asymmetrically, you can have one party body that's stronger or bigger than another joint pain. You're gonna plateau in your growth if you're not using the right form and

Philip Pape 50:00

You can get injured. So if you're a beginner, take the time to learn and practice proper form for every single exercise. And I'll say do it before you increase the weight significantly, I don't want to say do it before increasing the weight at all, I think you should be starting moderately late anyway, and then you're going to build up. As you build up, you develop the form, get the form down during that phase, and then as it starts to get heavy, your form is good, and you keep going. Alright, and this is where a trainer, a coach, um, Hey, join Whitson weights physique University and post a video and get a form check. It's one of the things we're going to provide there, for everyone who's in there. So, man, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna keep pitching that because let me tell you, if you're not in there, you're missing out. All right. Now, we talked about tracking progress. I know this episode is going to end up being epically long for solo episode, but I hope it's also massively valuable for those interested in developing your physique. It's got all my thoughts in one place. Alright, so tracking progress and making adjustments super important. We want to regularly monitor anything that's going to change that gives us useful information that we can act upon. That's really all it's about, okay. This would be of course, your body weight, your circumference measurements. And for bodybuilding, that's, that could be a lot of measurements if you want to get really detailed about it. But at a minimum, it's your chest, your waist, your neck, your biceps, your thighs, for ladies, also your hips. And then for everybody, if you want to add in like your calves, for example, or your shoulders, you can do that. You're gonna measure your strength, which is just your progressive overload, right, you're gonna measure your lifts and how the progression over time and you should see that either the, how close you are to failure is going up, the reps are going up, the weights going up, the volume is going up, something's going up. And then even your appearance, yes, I mean, we're talking about a building. So if you want to take progress photos, or judge your appearance visually, or in the mirror, or whatever it means to you, these are all important for gauging the effectiveness of what you're doing. And I would combine these methods together and track them, you know, track them in a sheet. So again, another plug for WWE pu, I have a physique and body composition or physique and biofeedback tracker, and that I put together and it's based on my own personal sheet that I've used for years. And what you do is you put in all your measurements in there on a weekly basis, or whatever basis you want. And then you can compare any two time time points to see how much you've changed how much fat you've gained or lost using a formula, and then the muscle to fat ratio. So it's pretty cool. It's pretty great. If you have this data and you put it in there, you'll know exactly Hey, am I actually gaining muscle on a one to one ratio to fat? Or I'm actually I'm actually losing mostly fat right? Am I actually getting leaner stronger improving my physique are my biceps actually growing and so on. So the really the the other reason we want to track is not just to see the growth, but the see see any lack of growth, if we have plateaus, if we are stagnating, these are very, very common challenges faced by anybody trying to live the bodybuilding lifestyle or just hit fit. plateaus. Okay plateaus with your weight and nutrition plateaus with your training.

Philip Pape 53:00

When you hit a plateau, the worst thing to do is just do nothing, right. We want to assess your program, we want to assess the numbers and look at where you can adjust. Maybe you need more volume, maybe you need to change a rep ranges, maybe we need to change exercise selection, chances are it's more in the principles. Are you actually progressing? Are you actually training to failure? Are you using good form all the things we already talked about? And then of course there's nutrition nutrition is a huge aspect of this that we is the elephant in the room, right today is not about nutrition primarily, but I'm going to bring it up occasionally. Because it's also extremely important in getting the leanest in the physique you're going for in combination with the training. So we've got our protein intake, we've got our, you know, energy balance, right? Are you trying to gain Are you losing your ratios for your macros, all that good stuff. And of course, we know how important protein is. So if you're not already eating a lot of protein and you're trying to body build, that's probably the first thing you want to clean up is just eat more protein.

Philip Pape 53:54

The other macro that I love his carbs, too. So go listen to my episode, more muscle, more carbs, the one that got a lot of hate, which I'm absolutely totally proud of. And even today, I saw somebody comments on a YouTube video of my recent episode about eat less move more is terrible advice. And he said, you know, all you got to do is cut carbs and that that's the way to get lean. Here we go again. Okay, motivation and mindset. This episode would not be complete without addressing the psychological piece of this. So we are not talking about physique, competitors, because I can't go there. I haven't competed. I do understand that there's a whole psychological aspect to if you're going to get extremely lean, and be a natural bodybuilder or a bikini competitor or something like that. It's a whole separate thing. But just in general. It's a long game. We talked about that before. And so staying quote unquote motivated which love or hate that word, we're going to use it and having a positive mindset are, I think two of the most important things to long term success. And the motivation comes from self motivation.

Philip Pape 55:00

From the self discipline of doing something, getting a result, getting a celebrating that result and then doing it again to continue producing the result. And if you don't get the result you want having the data that you just tracked, we talked about to tell you that you're not getting the results so you can change and get the result. To me, that is where motivation comes from. It moves it pushes, it motivates you motive, right motion, if you want to go with the Latin root of the word, as opposed to something else like pushing, you know, you have momentum, you have motivation. That's where I'm going for. When I say motivation, and positivity. It's the idea that you can do anything. Yes, I'm going to hit these reps, yes, I'm going to progress. Yes, I'm going to get stronger. Yes, I'm gonna go to the gym. Yes, I am strong. Yes, I'm capable. Yes, I'm beautiful. All of those things, even if you always still have more that you want to achieve. So having these like micro goals, you know, daily goals, weekly goals, quarterly goals, long term goals, and having some sort of roadmap at any given time for progress, it gives you a sense of purpose, the plan isn't going to go perfectly. In fact, it won't even, it won't even go adequately. Within about a week, I will tell you that for a fact, if you've ever had up a well laid plan, it's gonna start deviating from day two. But that's okay, because the plan gives you a direction and you can constantly tweak that plan. And this is where finding inspiration, finding podcasters you identify with joining communities and programs that you identify with role models who align with your values will promote healthy, balanced, you know, approach to living, and a healthy, balanced approach to bodybuilding because I think it can be a fun, positive, healthy pursuit. So surround yourself with that support, you know, like minded individuals who share your passion. I'm definitely one of them. So please count me in your corner, join our Facebook group, go to online events, free paid, I don't care, whatever is within your budget, engage with others who can offer encouragement, advice, and yes, even accountability at times. And remember that the setbacks, the plateaus, the challenges, these aren't negative things, these are just inevitable in your journey. And there are opportunities to learn, to adapt to come back stronger, and so celebrate the wins. Don't worry about the things in your way these can be overcome. All right, and we're going to reinforce the positive habits and the positive mindset that drives long term success. So that was kind of my little motivational speech helping your mind.

Philip Pape 57:29

And, you know, we're gonna conclude this episode shortly here. I'm a little bit long winded today. But I really do believe that bodybuilding is a life long journey, I want to be doing bodybuilding of some kind, you know, physique development, strength training, until the day I die, I really just do, I've seen so many people in my life, very close to me, it's very sad, who get weaker and weaker, and they get injured, and they go on medication and one thing spirals after another, and they just cannot live. And I hate to say it that way. And they may even, quote unquote, not live for decades. You know, when we talk about healthspan versus lifespan, and I think being healthy, being strong. And then yes, even bodybuilding, the positive aspects of it, are a process of self discovery, right? You learn about yourself, they're a process of personal growth, and their process of physical transformation. So it's kind of the best of everything, why not? Why not go after that? Embrace the process. Recognize that the rewards are in the journey, consistency, patience, those are the most important qualities. I'm sorry, I'm not here to sell you a quick fix, right. But trust the process, stay committed, enjoy it along the way. I can't stress that enough. So yeah, what is bodybuilding, it's building a better body but also building a better life. And if we have clear goals, if we surround ourselves with supportive people, if we remain resilient, we are going to reap all of those rewards of this incredible, amazing pursuits. Okay, just a last friendly reminder that if you are looking for physique, focused bodybuilding style workouts to go along with these principles, if you want the actual workouts, you know, here are the days a week here, the movements, here's the set range rep ranges, you know, sets and reps, here's a way to log it, whether you're intermediate or beginner lifter, whether you have gym access, or a home gym, you know, and there's even a female program in there. Everyone enrolled in Whitsun weights physique University are going to receive four programs every month, whatever your level or equipment access, and if you want those if you want the courses if you want the one on one support, custom nutrition plan, a supportive community to help you apply all of these principles from today. Just go to Whitson weights.com/physique or click the link in my show notes to enroll in which in weights physique University, again, that's what's in weights.com/physique or click the link in my show notes to enroll.

Philip Pape 1:00:00

In Whitsun, which was a university we're gonna be calling it w WP you I don't know if it'll stick maybe it's a mouthful. But again it is a monthly cancel and on anytime program and I made sure to include a 21 day money back guarantee so you have nothing to lose and everything to gain and look if you liked this show if you appreciate the amount of work and effort I put into making this accessible understandable and work for you that is what you're going to get in what's awaits physique University I've got, I've got my, for lack of a better phrase blood and sweat all over it Okay, metaphorically, and that you're going to get that kind of support, so it's going to be incredible. If you're in it, definitely don't miss it. Sign up now while you know the price is a steal before it goes up. And in our next episode, Episode 163 The most important overlooked secret to sculpting a body you'll love with Kate galley. We talk about taking care of the most important person in your life. Who is that? That is you yourself. You're going to learn how to master your inner dialogue, how to prioritize prioritize your health and happiness, and to tailor your self care practices to fit your lifestyle. You're going to learn practical tools as always, to reshape your daily routine so it aligns with your core values, and propels you toward your best self. If joy and happiness are truly important to you. As always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the wits end weights podcast.

Philip Pape 1:01:31

Philip Pape 4/5/24 Philip Pape 4/5/24

Ep 161: The Bioenergetic Solution to Low Energy and Chronic Health Issues with Jay Feldman

Can a carb-rich, high-calorie diet boost our metabolism? What are the real effects of fasting on our energy levels? How can lifestyle choices impact our mood and overall health? Philip is joined by Jay Feldman, a health coach and host of The Energy Balance Podcast, which focuses on bioenergetic health. Jay discusses the impact of maximizing cellular energy on mental health, metabolism, longevity, and more. He will address modern diet culture, stress, and lifestyle in the context of your health and offer practical solutions for adopting a sustainable, energy-boosting diet without relying on restriction or willpower. They even get into thyroid function and how to manage thyroid issues.

Can a carb-rich, high-calorie diet boost our metabolism? What are the real effects of fasting on our energy levels? How can lifestyle choices impact our mood and overall health?

In today’s episode, Philip (@witsandweights) is joined by Jay Feldman. Jay is a health coach and host of The Energy Balance Podcast, which focuses on bioenergetic health.

Jay discusses the impact of maximizing cellular energy on mental health, metabolism, longevity, and more. He will address modern diet culture, stress, and lifestyle in the context of your health and offer practical solutions for adopting a sustainable, energy-boosting diet without relying on restriction or willpower. They even get into thyroid function and how to manage thyroid issues.

Jay is a health coach and independent health researcher with a rich neuroscience and exercise physiology background. Instead of traditional medical school, Jay chose a different path to explore health. He believes that our health’s true foundation lies in maximizing cellular energy.

As the host of The Energy Balance Podcast, Jay champions this bioenergetic view, focusing on maximizing cellular energy as the cornerstone of vitality. His mission is to empower men and women worldwide to achieve freedom from low-energy symptoms and chronic health issues to maximize their cellular energy and optimize their health using a personalized bioenergetic approach.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:17 Explaining the bioenergetic diet and its differences from traditional diets
6:31 Pillars of the bioenergetic approach
9:01 Energy expenditure and metabolic rate
10:33 Low-carb diet for diabetics, and during fat loss
14:39 Digestive health and energy production
18:29 The role of bioenergetics in body composition
22:46 Understanding endotoxins
29:15 Linking bioenergetics to mental health and cognitive improvement
39:22 Differentiating between hormesis and chronic stress effects on health
43:11 Mitigating negative impacts of modern lifestyle and diet culture
49:44 The significance of lifestyle/diet on thyroid function and management insights
55:15 One question Jay wished Philip had asked
57:31 Where you can learn more about Jay and his work
58:30 Outro

Episode resources:

The Energy Balance Podcast
The Energy Balance Food Guide (1-page infographic) - jayfeldmanwellness.com/guide

Episode summary:

When we talk about vitality and well-being, we often focus on diet and exercise as our primary tools. However, health coach Jay Feldman brings a different perspective to the table—one that emphasizes the significance of cellular energy and bioenergetics for achieving optimal health. In a recent podcast episode, Jay delves deep into the connection between bioenergetics, thyroid health, and our overall energy balance.

Understanding the relationship between our daily nutrition and how our bodies convert food into energy is critical. Jay points out that modern diet culture has led us to misunderstand the role of carbohydrates. Rather than being the enemy, carbs are essential for efficient energy production. By embracing a diet rich in energy-rich carbs, we support our metabolism and avoid the energy crashes associated with restrictive diets.

Jay also shares his journey from studying neuroscience and exercise physiology to becoming an independent health researcher and coach. He emphasizes that every aspect of our physiology, from brain function to hormonal balance, is dependent on having sufficient energy. This paradigm shift suggests that by focusing on maximizing cellular energy, we can influence everything from our mental clarity to our ability to gain muscle.

In exploring the bioenergetic approach, Jay pays homage to the legacy of Nobel Prize winner Albert St. Georgi and the late Dr. Ray Peet. Their work sheds light on the importance of maintaining a balanced diet and consistent eating patterns to stabilize blood sugar and optimize metabolism. The interplay between stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline and the balance of macronutrients in our meals can have profound effects on our metabolic rate and muscle mass.

Jay also tackles the topic of digestive health, linking it to weight loss and overall well-being. He highlights the importance of digestive enzymes, stomach acid, and bile flow in breaking down food. A balanced gut microbiome plays a protective role in maintaining intestinal permeability and protecting our mitochondria. He discusses the potential benefits of fasting but also emphasizes the need for a balanced approach to avoid disrupting our metabolism.

Addressing the complexities of body fat storage and energy conversion, Jay challenges the "eat less, exercise more" mantra. He suggests that inefficiencies in energy conversion can lead to fat accumulation even in the absence of excess calories. This revelation underscores the importance of improving digestion and reducing endotoxin production for effective body fat management.

Moreover, Jay explores the relationship between brain health and energy metabolism. Deficits in energy production can impair cognitive function and mood. Lifestyle choices, such as diet and sunlight exposure, can have a significant impact on our mental well-being. He encourages easily digestible whole foods and consistent physical movement as key components of maintaining a healthy brain.

Finally, Jay discusses the critical role of thyroid function in our health. He offers practical tips for improving thyroid health through diet and lifestyle choices. Reducing exposure to blue light, engaging in calming activities before bedtime, and choosing healthier fat options can all support thyroid health. Jay stresses the importance of understanding how environmental factors, nutrient deficiencies, and the balance of macronutrients can influence thyroid function and, consequently, our overall well-being.

This podcast episode serves as a reminder that our body's subtle workings hold the key to unlocking our energy and vitality. With Jay Feldman's guidance, listeners can take away actionable insights to fuel their passions and live a balanced, energetic life.

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Transcript

Jay Feldman 00:00

Most people don't feel too good when they're doing cod especially if you're talking like, you know, before a bodybuilding competition if you talk to people in that state like they're barely hanging on and and it's just like everything is just focused on that, because you really don't feel good. And so we kind of want to do the opposite of that and provide that our brain with the fuel on a consistent basis so that it can function optimally.

Philip Pape 00:23

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger, optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition. We'll uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry, so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of the weights and weights podcast. I am energized to have Jay Feldman on the show today, Jay is a health coach and host of the energy balanced podcast focused on bio Energetic Health. Now I invited you on the show so you can learn about this concept. Jay is going to discuss the impact of maximizing cellular energy on things like mental health, metabolism, longevity, and more. He's going to address modern diet, culture, stress and lifestyle in the context of your health, and offer practical solutions for adopting the sustainable energy boosting diet without relying on restriction or willpower. We'll even get into thyroid function and how to manage thyroid issues. Jay is a health coach, but he's also an independent health researcher, something I can definitely relate to that. I mean, he has a rich background in neuroscience and Exercise Physiology, opting out of the traditional medical school route, Jay went on a journey to uncover the true essence of health beyond conventional approaches to embrace the idea that cellular energy is the foundation of our health. As the host of the energy balance podcast, Jay champion's this bio energetic view, focusing on maximizing cellular energy as a cornerstone of vitality. His mission is to empower men and women worldwide to achieve freedom from low energy symptoms and chronic health issues, to maximize their cellular energy and optimize their health using a personalized bio energetic approach. Jay, welcome to the show.

Jay Feldman 02:14

Yeah, Phil, thanks so much for having me. I appreciate the introduction.

Philip Pape 02:17

So I think the listener if they're not familiar with the concept of bio energetic health and nutrition, focusing on, you know, cellular energy for health, we just want to understand what exactly is it what is a diet that supports that kind of health, and then we can get into some of the subtopics related to that?

Jay Feldman 02:34

Definitely. So big picture, what we're talking about, as you kind of alluded to is the energy that we're producing inside the cells inside the mitochondria, that being the driver of our health. So when we're producing a lot of energy, we tend to function well, when we're not, we tend not to function well. And that's because every single aspect of our physiology depends on having enough energy. So that's the overarching concept. But we're really just looking at physiology, we're looking at how our liver functions, how our brain functions, we're looking at how our different you know, hormones relate to what we eat. And then we're using that to create a diet a lifestyle, create a really supportive environment, that is going to put us in the state where our bodies are maximizing the efficiency with which they produce energy, and how much energy they're producing. So we can maximize our health. So that's the overarching framework. And on one hand, there can be a lot of overlaps with other approaches, but there's certain things that end up being a little bit unique, in terms of the idea that we want to again, when it comes to maximizing energy, we want to be able to eat as many calories as possible, while let's say maintaining our weight, right, that's a good sign that our metabolisms high. And a lot of times, we think that we're kind of stuck with, you know, not being able to eat very much if we've done a lot of dieting over time. But we can totally reverse that. So that's an important goal. We also want to make sure we're not avoiding carbohydrates, which are essential for efficient energy production. And if we're avoiding those, that's going to be a way that we actually decrease our metabolism. So there's a number of factors like that, that we focus on, in an effort to maximize how much energy we produce and then maximize our health, which goes beyond, you know, I mean, it's everything from brain fog and energy that we feel throughout the day to how well we sleep, how deeply we sleep, how easily we put on muscle, those kinds of things. Cool.

Philip Pape 04:23

And I'm curious about the term itself, like where it came from, if this is if this is your term, or if it's a kind of accepted term in the industry. But to me, it sounds like the antidote of low energy or low energy availability and kind of the opposite side of that spectrum, as well as, like you said, supporting a proper balance of things like carbs, which we can get into, you know, the myths there, but people who listen to the show should know by now that I'm a huge fan of carbs. So is that effectively what we're talking about? I don't mean to minimize you know, the approach you take, but is that what we're talking about?

Jay Feldman 04:52

Carbs are a big part of it. What so I have not this is not a term that I coined bioenergetic researcher by the name of Albertson Georgie, who is a Nobel Prize winner, he had a book called bioenergetics. And he and a number of other researchers around that time, were talking about things in these terms. There is a PhD scientist, Ray Pete, who recently died, I guess, just over a year ago. And he was also a more modern pioneer talking about these sorts of topics, and really applying them to health and physiology, talking about concerns with polyunsaturated fats, things like that. So, yeah, I mean, it's a it's not a framework that I have come up with, per se, but one that I certainly, I mean, that's something that I've integrated in for sure to, to my approach and, and my research and everything like that. But yeah, it goes, I mean, we can talk about any intervention, whether we're talking about weightlifting, or sleep, or blue light, or whatever it is, in terms of how it affects us on the bioenergetic level on in terms of our biological energy that we produce. So it expands beyond Of course, as you're saying, getting enough carbohydrates. It's a huge part. And I think one of the ones that's most important to talk about these days, because the vast majority of the fitness health world, or at least a huge portion is pretty anti carbohydrates right now, but definitely goes beyond that as well. I mean, another big one is fasting. And we can talk about why that's not really a great approach if we're trying to maximize our energy. So yeah,

Philip Pape 06:17

for sure. So we have a prevalence of chronic dieters right out there, I see it all the time clients coming in. And also sort of misapplication or misunderstanding of, you know how food works to provide that energy, how energy balance works, all of that. So let's talk about sort of the pillars of this bio energetic approach, because I like the holistic nature of it, in that we're not just talking about energy balance, right? That is very, very important. In terms of energy balance, energy flux, I don't know if you use that term as well, with, you know, moving more and eating more, not eating less. But you mentioned cellular health, and you mentioned some of the kind of 1% things as well, if somebody's getting started with this for the first time, what are what are the five pillars, right, three, five, whatever, of vital energetic upright, I have trouble with that word, for some reason. Probably rolls off the tongue for you by now. You know what I'm trying to say? Yeah,

Jay Feldman 07:07

definitely. So yeah, let's talk about some pillars, one would be making sure that we have good, stable balanced blood sugar throughout the day, the most important thing there is that we're eating consistently. So we're not skipping breakfast, we're not going, you know, from breakfast, until the late afternoon, we're eating, you know, anywhere from every three to six hours. You know, that's kind of a big range, there might depend on how active we are and how big of meals we're eating, though, we want to be eating relatively consistently, because when we don't, and our blood sugar drops, that's our main sensor that our body uses as far as its fuel gauge, right? Especially in terms of carbohydrates. So when our blood sugar drops, because we haven't eaten in a while, our body looks at that as a situation that is sub optimal, right, and it decides to release stress hormones to provide some extra carbohydrates while we're not eating them. But over time, that's something that decreases our metabolic rate. And understandably, so because if that happens consistently, everybody has recognized that we're not in an ideal environment. And they don't want to be using all this energy, they want to kind of go into a low battery mode state and conserve energy, which is the exact opposite of what we want to happen. So balancing blood sugars are really important one, eating consistently and with that, making sure we're getting carbs with each meal. And I think for most people, a good balance of protein, carbs and fat with each meal is a great way to do it. But at the very least, we want to make sure there's carbs in there, you know, even if we're having a snack or something, we don't want it to be protein only. And the fat again, our needs might vary, but I think oftentimes it helps out some fat to help us satiety and hormones and digestion and all of that.

Philip Pape 08:41

Yeah, cool. No, no, I don't know. Yeah, no, there's more pillars. I do have some side tangents on that we can go on. Sure. Sure. Right. Yeah. Cool. So first, the funny thing is that came to my mind, he said, Eat three to six meals, I'm sure people are gonna think like the old bro science of like, you have to eat a bunch to ramp up your metabolism, you're kind of saying that right? In a way. And there's some legitimacy there. Are you saying that it energy, you know, on an isocaloric diet, right and or between two groups with the energy being the same, and the macros being the same that that that's going to change the metabolic rate significantly by if you only had one feeding, and you're essentially fasting versus the distribution?

Jay Feldman 09:15

Yeah, and that's what we see in these sorts of studies where they're doing intermittent fasting, in the short period of time, you're not going to see a change in energy expenditure, what you see is that we're relying more on stress to make up for that lack of energy. So let's say we do skip to breakfast and we get larger releases of cortisol, adrenaline and and glucagon, those will proper metabolic rate up so we still have the energy there, but it's doing it through the stress mechanisms that over time will lower our metabolic rate, but in the short term will have other effects too. So we'll see decreases in testosterone increases in reverse T three that inactive thyroid hormone, and thyroid is our main regulator of our metabolic rate. And in some of the studies where they do compare ISIL calorically we start to see increased loss of muscle mass relative to body fat If you know each side is in a deficit, and that's because of the shift in hormones, so you're not going to see it short term in terms of the actual energy expenditure values, but it's because we're relying more on stress. And we do see that in terms of outcomes. And if we looked over time, then we would start to see those shifts as well. And energy expenditure wise, no,

Philip Pape 10:17

that makes a lot of sense, bringing the hormones into it, and, you know, probably explains a lot of symptoms people have when they go through that, and they talk about a lack of energy, you know, everybody raves about fasting, maybe in the short term, and maybe there's some benefits to like a random fast here or there. But like you said, long term could be could be negative. What about a special case here? Because I've been talking a lot in my community about recently, some folks have diabetes, right? type one and type two, but especially type one where you're insulin dependent, maybe not necessarily. And there's this very strong push against carbs at all. And yet, I know plenty of diabetics who are successful incorporating carbs in a balanced way, and they walk after meals, and they do you know, the strength train and things like that to increase their sensitivity. What are your thoughts on that? Is there a case where somebody just has to for like a medical reason, keep the carbs low? Or is that a like a false statement.

Jay Feldman 11:05

So it can certainly be more convenient, we can see, you know, if we're looking at a CGM will see it be flatter. If we're dealing with someone who's insulin dependent, it's a lot easier to dose insulin or not those insulin Mummert on low carb, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's optimal, right? And we need insulin, insulin is incredibly important. I know you've talked about this, but it's in direct opposition with something like cortisol, right, on one hand, we have this kind of more anabolic, but pro metabolic side, where we're getting the carbs in, we're getting the protein in and our body recognizes that it's in the state to increase its activity. And insulin does that right? It will stimulate glucose oxidation, the burning of glucose as a fuel, it'll increase the uptake of these different nutrients to protein, amino acids, that glucose so that our bodies can use them. And at the same time, it turns off the stress hormones, it's the quickest way to do that is to have a bit of carbohydrates, increase the insulin and decrease something like cortisol. So I think it's really important that we get the insulin in, and then somebody who has, let's say, who has type one diabetes, and I have to rely on exogenous insulin, it's certainly less convenient. But I think worth it as opposed to trying to minimize insulin use. So that's the way I would look at it. Even if it is easier to manage, I don't think it's optimal. And nowadays it is getting, like the technology around the the use of insulin is getting a little better. You know, it's I think it's slower acting type things. So I would, I would favor that approach with the carbohydrates, if we can do it effectively. And that can just take some time, you know, and balancing other meals with other macronutrients will help as opposed to maybe having juice on its own, where it's really hard to mitigate a spike like that, if we're not able to do it indigenously. But yeah, so those are some considerations.

Philip Pape 12:53

Alright, so segwaying into the related topic, you already mentioned, before we get to the next pillar was, like, maybe not just having protein, with a meal in a hypercaloric, I should say, like, when you're either at maintenance or surplus, and you've got a lot of calories to play with, it makes total sense to keep things balanced. And I like to tell clients, like just balance the three bars as you go through the day, you know, and it's kind of the easiest way to just from a practical standpoint, you know, quote, unquote, hit your macros. But what about during fat loss when somebody's calories are limited, and the carbs are quite a bit lower? Because you keep the protein high? And you just, you know, you're trying to slam those carbs around your training, maybe and then you don't have much for the rest of the day? Is that just a trade off? You make? Or what are your thoughts?

Jay Feldman 13:34

I would prefer not to go too low on the carbs. So if we're going to lower one of the fuel base macronutrients between carbs and fats, I typically prefer to lower fat. And that's for this reason. And, yeah, I mean, obviously can be situations where maybe we're a bit limited and how many carbs we're having in the day. I don't normally like that approach. But if we were I'd still probably rather spread them out a bit, as opposed to just concentrating them around training. But I think we're talking about, in this case, maybe an approach that is looking for some sort of outcome, maybe at a cost, in which case, that might be just kind of par for the course, like, there might be a cost involved.

Philip Pape 14:13

Okay, but in general, it makes sense. And yeah, I mean, it's you're talking probably a petite female or somebody with a very low metabolic rate to begin with, who's dieting on on those tight calories where you just you're maybe 100 grams or less almost keto territory versus a guy like me who has 200 or more even in a diet, you know, it's no problem. Okay, so that's kind of the first pillar is stable, balanced blood sugar, eating every three to six hours. It helps with stress hormones, your metabolic rate. Love that. Okay, what else? What are a couple other big pillars here of the bioenergetic approach?

Jay Feldman 14:43

Yeah, the next one, I would say which relates with the fasting is digestive health. So one of the main things that will inhibit our energy production, the ability to convert that fuel into energy in the mitochondria is going to be certain products from gut, especially very irritated, stressed gut, and an imbalanced microbiome. So when we're in that sort of state, there are certain compounds produced by bacteria in the gut, one of the primary ones that's talked about is called endotoxin, which is a more colloquial name for what's called lipopolysaccharide, or LPS is a component of bacteria. And it really effectively inhibits our capacity for energy production at what's called the electron transport chain in the mitochondria, basically, the main site of where we produce ATP. And this is pretty universal, pretty well known. This is the main thing responsible for sepsis. And the, the often, you know, intense state of what happens there oftentimes death as a result of really intense infection and someone who's immunocompromised. And we're, of course, not talking about something that severe, but this compound, the LPS is what's responsible for that. And so, what's found is that low levels of endotoxin, or moderate levels, I should say, are still associated with diabetes, insulin resistance, pretty much I mean, cardiovascular disease, pretty much any kind of degenerative chronic state. And that's because we can be dealing with this on an ongoing basis, and just constantly being at an inefficient state of mitochondrial respiration. So what that brings us to is this massively important feature of health, which is our digestive health. And so I would say, as a second pillar here we have trying to optimize our digestive health. And that can look different for different people, depending on what our issues might be. But I would be thinking about things like making sure that our stomach acid, bile flow, and digestive enzymes are all in a really good place. So we're breaking down the food that's coming in, and then making sure that we have a good healthy microbiome that's well balanced. We don't want to have overgrowth of bacteria in the small intestine, which should be relatively sterile. That's where we break down and absorb most of our food. And then the indigestible food goes down to the large intestine. And there, it's normal to have bacteria. But we want to make sure there's not too much, and especially not too much of the wrong types. And if there is we can have excessive amounts of this endotoxin that then enters into the bloodstream, it causes intestinal permeability, just by being in the large intestine, enters into the bloodstream and is essentially poisonous for us. And, again, we see that in these conditions, it's used pretty reliably in studies as a way to test you know, something's able to protect the mitochondria against something like LPs. So I would say this is our second pillar, there's a lot to go into there. But we're talking about fasting before. And I think there are some benefits of fasting, one of them is this relief from these gut issues. If we're producing a lot of endotoxin on a regular basis, and then we fast, we're going to feel a lot better. And understandably so. And it can lead to a lot of great benefits, people might notice this, not only in terms of body composition, but maybe energy or mood, maybe certain autoimmune issues or skin issues, there can be a lot of relief here. And my preference would be for us to try to have that same outcome without the fasting without the inherent stress this that's involved. And just by improving the state of the gut. I

Philip Pape 17:58

love how you put that really I haven't heard it put so clearly that way, because there's a lot of anecdote about fasting and beautiful benefits. And I used to fast one day a week, you know, hated it, it was a forced thing. And I was like, oh, yeah, I feel this clarity, and it feels so great. And then I'm, I'm ravenous, and of course, ate all my calories back and stuff like that, as back in the day. And I hear people still swear by it. But like you said, you know, short term, it gives you this false sense of maybe not false, if there is actually some relief, but like you said, you can get that without the fastening or the stress of the fasting. I did want to ask about body composition and fat loss. Overall, when you talk about the ATP production from the electron transport chain, we don't have to get into like Krebs cycles and all that. But when energy is released on fat cells, right? The fatty acids are released via enzymes, and all that happens there. Does the inhibition of the electron transport chain from the endotoxins? Then, you know, simply reduce the amount of energy you're getting for performance, right? Because the lack of ATP? And then what's happening to the byproducts since they're not getting converted into energy source? Yes, I think this

Jay Feldman 19:05

is it's such a great question. Because this is crucial when we're talking about body composition and weight loss. The the general perspective is, if we want to lose body fat, we need to eat less and exercise more, we need to just burn more calories than we're expending. And we're missing a lot there. And I think we really want to shift our frame framework when we're talking about the storage of body fat away from this sort of simplistic equation, and toward something that captures the nuances a little bit more. And so the way that I would think of it is we have this fuel coming in, right? That's the food especially carbs and fats, because we know that protein is not used as much as a fuel right? It's more of a building block. And there's a number of areas that that fuel can go it can also be used as a building block, right? Fats are integral structural components in all of our cells. But then it can either be converted energy, or it can be stored with carbohydrates. We could store it as glycogen in our liver muscles. With that, we can also store some of it in our muscles. But mostly we'll store it in our adipose tissue, and our fat stores. And what we often think is we convert all of the food that we take in into energy until we don't need more ATP. And then it gets converted to body fat or it gets stored at that point. But we don't actually often recognizes if there are things partially inhibiting our energy production, partially inhibiting that conversion from fuel to energy. If that engine isn't working properly, we can get spillover into body fat, even when we don't have enough ATP, even when we don't have as much energy as we could. And that's often what's happening in people who are getting a lot of body fat, they've done the dieting over time, they're not ending up with a lot of energy, they aren't feeling energetic, they don't have ATP. Instead, they're dealing with oftentimes number, a number of symptoms, and they're storing body fat at the same time. So when we just say you're eating too much, you're not exercising enough, we're ignoring all these parts in the middle. And we're ignoring that there can be things blocking our capacity to produce energy. And if we resolve those, we can even eat more and converted more effectively to energy and still have less distorted body fat. So when we take that paradigm, it can really shift the way that we think about body composition, the way that we think about gaining or losing body fat,

Philip Pape 21:18

for sure, yeah, absolutely. And if I were to put it into a little picture for the listener, like, I'm thinking of a fork in the road, right, where you either have this energy production for ATP, or you have fat storage, and normally they're wide open. But now imagine like a clogged artery over here on the ATP side, where it's just like barely squeezing through, everything else has to go the other way. And the fat storage increases. So yeah, like you said, your, your body isn't efficient at that point. And that that could be causing the gain body fat. And I'm assuming it also looks like a reduction in expenditure, as well, when that happens. Typically,

Jay Feldman 21:52

yeah. And it also leads to then increased hunger and cravings. Because oats sensors are energy dependent in our liver and our hypothalamus of our brain, there's a number of things that are sensed, but the most important one most fundamental one is how much ATP is there. If there's not very much ATP, even if we're eating a lot, we're still going to be hungry. And that's where we can be in that state where we can eat, you know, we can binge, we can eat a, you know, whole batch of cookies or brownies or something and still feel like we can eat more, even though we're feeling really physically full. That's because we're not converting that food effectively to energy on a regular basis, we're storing a lot as body fat, and that hunger is constant. And that if we don't address something like that, it's it's just an uphill battle. And people move their whole lives like that. I know, I lived like that for a long time. And it's, it was night and day difference for me when I recognized that that didn't have to be my relationship with food or just my life.

Philip Pape 22:46

Right. So I know, this could be a complicated subject related to the endotoxins. What is a general prescription right or approach here that that combats that. So the first thing is, let's identify

Jay Feldman 22:57

any digestive symptoms that we noticed, because those are often tied with these different problems. So if we're noticing gas, bloating, in frequent stools, or leaning on a constipation side, or on the other side, due to frequent loose stools, any of those things often indicate some sort of microbiome imbalance. And so the first thing there is let's create a diet or let's shift our diet to a way that does not trigger those symptoms. So we're minimizing the gas and bloating, we're minimizing this fluctuation in terms of stool consistency, or just, you know, rebalancing it or or reorienting it toward a good spot, that would be the first thing. And that can look different for certain people. But there's a couple of universal principles. So the first is certain foods are going to be much more likely to feed bacteria. So if we have an overgrowth, we'll want to reduce those. And certain foods are much easier to digest, we break them down very easily we absorbed them, men have to worry about the endotoxin so much. So what I would do there is I would, I would take some of the harder to digest foods, try to reduce those, and that's typically going to be raw vegetables, as well as whole grains and nuts and seeds. Those are some of the main ones that have a lot more fibers are a lot harder for us to break down and are much more likely to feed the bacteria. And instead we can favor you know cooked roots and tubers, potatoes, parsnips, those kinds of things, carrots, and then you know, fruits, which can also be like dried fruit or fruit juice, making sure that those are really ripe. We can also do cooked vegetables. You know, on the grain side, there's still some that can fit in there. So I would actually favorite white rice over brown rice for this reason, this digestibility concern. And that's by the way, why things like white rice were eaten traditionally and have been for hundreds of years despite a huge amount of effort that goes into producing it or processing it from brown rice. It's you know, we're talking about individual grains here that each have to have their whole brand removed. So those are the types of shifts that would make just just as a start. in place, that can often lead to a lot of relief.

Philip Pape 25:02

So stop the presses, right? Because you're saying potentially less fiber. I mean, that's some people are getting here here. But and then people are always told, Well, maybe they're not eating enough fiber. And I'm sure it's highly individualized depending on if you're having these symptoms and what's working for you. But what are your general thoughts on that, like fiber recommendations of whatever it is today, 14 grams, or 1000 calories, like just as a pure number, and the benefits of fiber versus what you're suggesting here, which I totally understand. Yeah,

Jay Feldman 25:29

so for one, this isn't necessarily the permanent diet, what it might look like. But this is if we're dealing with these endotoxin issues, it's kind of like providing the relief that we get from fasting, but also providing all the nutrients we need, and not getting, you know, not getting this constant flood of endotoxin all the time. So short term, this can look like less fiber, for sure. And it will depend on the individual. So, you know, I did mention whole fruits and vegetables, which have fiber in them. Some people even need to reduce those or reduce the ones that have more fermentable carbohydrates, more fibers in there, because there's such imbalance in the microbiome. So first thing is let's provide relief, let's not feed the issue, then will work on rebalancing the microbiome. And sometimes even just not feeding issue will do enough. Sometimes we need to go in and provide some extra support to clean things up. And then we can start to bring those foods back in at least favoring the fibers from Whole Foods and cooked vegetables, I still would be I'm still not the biggest fan of the whole grains. Without processing, I think that we're much better off if we're talking oats, for example, doing sprouted oats, because there are what are called anti nutrients. There are these chemical defensive compounds in the grains, nuts and seeds that are developed by the plants to prevent mammals from eating them. And these are things that actually can encourage the growth of harmful bacteria that can inhibit protein and starch digestion, to create a number of issues and testimony. And so I still think if we are going to bring those things back in, we want to do it and prepare them Traditionally, when we look at any traditional cultures that were eating these foods, they were either fermenting, or soaking and sprouting. Because they knew that this would make them more digestible and more absorbable. So if we were to bring those things back in, I would still want to use those sorts of techniques, which you can find, you know, it's not like you have to do it yourself. There's a lot of products that that are already done for you. Yeah.

Philip Pape 27:27

Yeah, it's interesting. Because I know there's always been a debate, I used to be hardcore, like paleo, and I know, the, you know, ancestral approach and talking about vital toxins or anti toxins, whatever you just said to anti nutrients. And there was another one. And there's always been a little bit of debate on that. But I think there's a, what you're talking about is maybe more reasonable approach as to why they could be an irritant for the gut. And do this do some sort of elimination approach is always a good at least individual strategy, right to experiment and see if that helps. And I would say, anybody who's listening who's skeptical, like, just try it, right? Like, if you're having issues, that's all you can do. If it didn't work, it didn't work, right. Like then you can yell at Jay cinnamon, send them some hate mail, and, you know, but no, it's all good. Okay, was there another pillar we wanted to address before we get into some other side topics? I

Jay Feldman 28:16

mean, I bet we'll kind of come through them as we go. You know, I think there's a lot to talk about in terms of stress and, and finding that balance, making sure not overdoing it, overtraining over, you know, not getting enough sleep, all of those things, but I'm sure that'll kind of come up as we go. Okay,

28:31

my name is Lisa. And I'd like to Big shout out to my nutrition coach Phillip pate with his coaching, I have lost 17 pounds, he helped me identify the reason that I wanted to lose weight, and it's very simple longevity. I want to be healthy, active and independent until the day I die. He introduced me to this wonderful app called macro factor I got that part of my nutrition figured out along with that is the movement part of nutrition, there's a plan to it and really helped me with that. The other thing he helped me with was knowing that I need to get a lot of steps in so the more steps you have, the higher your expenditure is and the easier it is to lose weight when it's presented to you like he presents it it makes even more sense. And the other thing that he had was a hunter guide and that really helped me so thank you.

Philip Pape 29:15

Okay, yeah, because the next two big things I want to cover are the stress like you mentioned and also the energy side of it in terms of cognitive emotional behavioral health, right? Like you know, mood and stuff like that, how it affects mental health because I've I really big now into the you know, the link between the physical and mental and just the huge benefits for mental health when you can optimize all these things. So let's start there. Let's just start there, like how does it intersect with mental health whatever that means to you, whether it's anxiety, depression, and that side, or if it's just, you know, mood and energy.

Jay Feldman 29:46

I think you're you mentioned the most important thing here, which is that there is not this separation between our mental health, our mood and then includes things like depression, anxiety, OCD, like the whole spectrum there. That It's not separate from our physiology. Even if we're talking neurotransmitters in the brain, those are also directly affected by everything else going on. And that's also affected by movement and exercise, it's affected by sleep, it's affected by nutrients. So the first thing is recognizing that relationship. And the massive importance there that I don't think can be understated is that that gives us some agency back, right, we're not necessarily just stuck with these things, and forced to solely rely on medications, or to be at the will of some someone else's help, there are things that we can do to really improve our state. And so that I think is the first point that is that that is just really important to recognize that relationship. And we see that in a number of ways, right? So when we look at brain health, there's a couple of things to recognize, we're talking about metabolism, we're talking about energy production, our brain is by far our energy hungriest organ, right? It only weighs two to 3% of our total body weight, and it's using 20, or even more percent of all of our energy that we need. So it's like, that's huge, right. And so if we're having a problem with our capacity for energy production, it will typically affect our brain. And that can mean our cognitive function, how well we can think about something, it can also mean, you know, if we're feeling a little foggy, if our memories and great, but it also directly affects our mood. And that's not just because of the brain energy, but also because of the hormonal state that our bodies in so you kind of talked about this with the fasting. You know, I think we've all felt hangry. Right. And I think that's, that's like the the clearest one, right? We've gone too long without eating. That's this app play, right? We've increased the stress hormones, because we haven't eaten enough. And those don't feel good, they make us irritable, they make us angry, we typically don't have a lot of energy at that point, it's not like we're ready to go for a workout, or we want to sit down and crank out some some sort of really creative assignment or something, we're typically feeling the opposite, right? All we can think about is food, it doesn't feel good. And that's in more of the acute sense. But we can have this kind of thing over time as well, that really affects us on a day to day basis in terms of how we're feeling. And I think another place people feel it hormone wise, and this is, unfortunately less of the case for men, but women with their cycles can tell how much the physiology affects their mood. And the reason I say it's unfortunate for men is because it just makes it a little bit harder for us to maybe empathize, but also just see, like we it's harder for us to see how much our hormones can affect our mood. And maybe somebody who's had low testosterone and tries TRT will notice that kind of Stark, this difference, stark contrast, but it's hard to understate how much the hormones can affect mood. And, you know, I've known women who worked with women who were on birth control, and didn't realize how much those hormones were affecting them, and they got off, and we're like, wow, I was anxious, like, I was really, really anxious. And that wasn't just me, that was these hormones and their effect on on me mentally. So those are just some examples that kind of go to show how much our physiology can affect our brain. But we see this in terms of our brain metabolism as well, you know, increased lactate production, which is a sign of inefficient mitochondrial respiration, and a lower ATP levels, increased oxidative stress, those are all things that are seen in pretty much any degenerative or chronic brain issue, not only in the brain, but also elsewhere. And so this is part of why improving our lifestyle, even just the most basics, trying to get enough sleep, trying to eat consistently and get good nutrition and shift the types of foods that we're eating, getting consistent movement. They go a really long way, when it comes to brain health. And, and maybe we'll dig into some details too. But that's just kind of a starting place. I

Philip Pape 33:48

think it's a great starting point. Because the idea that it gives you agency, like you said, all these things have a physical, physiological chain, you know, a cascade that links together and you don't, you know, if you're listening to this, you don't have to understand all the biology underneath just kind of the beginning in the end, and know that your choices can help. But like the comment about the birth control, I've seen that firsthand with women in my lives. And it's been profound. I mean, and then in some cases, people will, you know, maybe not change their lifestyle, but they'll try something like ashwagandha, and they see this huge change in like what's going on with just some little herb. Right? And which I want to ask about that. But um, yeah, the brain being the hungriest organ of the body is a great way to put it right? Because when you lack energy, everything gets conserved. Like your body just goes into the state of okay, I only have so much budget, I'm gonna dole it out where it needs to be. And by the way, the brain is this massive, you know, selfish thing that's needs all that energy, so we're going to drop it. So then how do you get that agency and take advantage of it to improve the brain health?

Jay Feldman 34:49

Yeah, so I mean, one of the toughest things when we're talking especially about the more intense mood disturbances, you know, talking depression and and It's, you know, intense anxiety, things like that is it can make it really tough to implement, you know, any sort of intervention chicken and egg situation. Yeah, totally. But yeah, so as I was saying, we've got the foundations, right, let's, if we want to keep it super simple, let's start to eat whole foods and maybe based on digestion, which there is a pretty high relationship between gut health and brain health, recognizing that and most serotonin is produced in the gut, is something that, you know, I think just gets us to think about the impact of, of hormone xenons, and brain health. But also, I think, people maybe recognize, maybe not so much, how slow motility and then having bowel movements, how that can relate with our mood, I've had a number of people mentioned that were when they get their motility going, it actually has a direct impact on our mood. So lowering endotoxin, you know, I guess, I'm kind of going intentions of starting with whole foods, and I was gonna say was really easily digested ones that I was talking about earlier, and maybe keep it down in terms of the grains and, and harder to digest foods, the raw vegetables and everything. I think that can go a long way. Sunlight is a big one. So like moving getting outside for, I mean, you can put a target every day, do you think setting a very specific goal is always helpful. So maybe that's just getting 20 minutes of sunlight a day. And if we pair that with a movement, you know, just walking outside, I think that we can check two boxes there. And so I think those kinds of things make a big difference, we're gonna check

Philip Pape 36:29

three mindfulness walking, meditation, right? To do it off, let's keep going. And,

Jay Feldman 36:35

you know, we're talking about blood sugar earlier, and that directly relates here, because we can talk about in terms of feeling hangry. And we can kind of joke about that. But there is a direct relationship between where our blood sugar is at and how much carbohydrate we're getting in, and the stress hormones and then can't, you know, we can have that same relationship with mood. So people might think of it, I think we almost take it for granted, right? We'll talk about it as like a pick me up or something. But physiologically, we're making a difference. If we, you know, ate five hours ago, and we're trying to push it, you know, we're, maybe we're just not prioritizing that next meal. But we get a cut, you know, we eat an orange or something or a banana to bring that blood sugar up, we're decreasing the stress in our entire body, we're directly turning down that cortisol. And that can make a big difference when it comes to shifts in mood, and decrease anxiety as well. When we talk anxiety. There's a strong relationship with the stress hormones. And if we think adrenaline if we think we had too much coffee, we're jittery. We're we're feeling like there's there's like a moderate anxiety there. And that same thing can happen if we're under this chronic stress. And bringing in some carbohydrates is the best way to turn that down. So just paying attention to getting consistent nutrition in getting enough calories and can can make a really big difference. And, again, another place we're talking about, like cuts earlier, most people don't feel too good when they're doing a cut, especially if you're talking like you know, before a bodybuilding competition, if you talk to people in that state, like they're barely hanging on, and it's just like, everything is just focused on that, because you really don't feel good. And so we kind of want to do the opposite of that and provide that our brain with the fuel on a consistent basis so that it can function optimally.

Philip Pape 38:17

Ya know, it's always good to point out that bodybuilding and getting lean, even just a regular fat loss phase. It's a temporary kind of, quote unquote, extreme, not extreme, but I mean, it's pushing toward the edge of that normal curve of where you want to live your life. Normally, and you're making those trade offs, you can make them easier. Of course, we talked about that a lot. But so you mentioned increasing Whole Foods that are easily digestible, totally makes a lot of sense in the sunlight and combining that with multiple things like potentially walking, and that's great. Carbohydrates, the eating of fruit eating fruit is is amazing. I'm telling clients more and more, I'm like, fruits, great. Enjoy it. And also it's a great snack, but even during fat loss, right, like oranges on the top five, high satiety foods, like people are surprised by that oranges and bananas and apples. The, you know, man, I'm fumbling over my word, if you have a craving of sweet tooth, right? They say that. And like you said, maybe it also has this benefit on energy and just feeling good. It's you know, three in the afternoon, you get hangry This is the time when you habitually go to grab those chips, get some grapes, get get a banana, whatever, you know, is the best for you. That's just my side side comments. But you mentioned movement. Where does strength training come into this? Because we want to segue into acute versus chronic stress. And to me, you know, strength training is one of those wonderful, acute stressors that we do. But there may be others that you want to address, you know, hormesis I think we call it right, acute stress versus chronic stress and the impact on health.

Jay Feldman 39:43

Yeah, so when it comes to movement just as a starting place, there's kind of two categories here and they're kind of independent. So one is not being sedentary, and the other is about service, more intense movement. And surprisingly, they're kind of independent, meaning that if we get work out in four days a week or even on every day, for 30 minutes, an hour, hour and a half. But we're sitting the rest of the day, we're fully sedentary, there are still major negative effects to that being sedentary that are not made up for by the concentrated exercise. So on one hand, we want to make sure that we're not sedentary, that we're moving on a regular basis. And of course, so many people now have sedentary jobs. So I'm not saying we need to get a new job as a construction worker or something like that. But rather, let's just, you know, set a timer every hour. And let's get up, walk around for five minutes stretch a bit, let's you know if we can get a sit stand workstation, maybe even a treadmill desk, things like that, just to increase the amount of movement we have during the day. If we get a good lunch break, let's maybe take a 20 minute walk at that point outside and get some of the mindfulness meditation in which I think can go a long way during a workday especially. So that'd be the first thing is let's make sure that we're not sedentary. And again, that doesn't mean we need to literally be moving all the time. It just means we need to break up the times during which we're sitting. That's that's the main thing. Or even I guess standing to normally when we're standing, we can move a bit more. But just standing still, for a long time is not ideal, either. Yeah, yeah, I'm

Philip Pape 41:12

standing right now as we record this, but you can see me fidgeting, and after we're done, I'm gonna have to move around. I love that distinction, because I've seen very interesting cases, right, where you'll have a dude that's been lifting for 20 years, lots of muscle mass trains five days a week. And as a desk job, it's 3000 steps. And like, you know, they have a high resting heart rate and not such great cardiovascular health, you might have good blood markers, because of the strength training. But it's just this weird dichotomy of like, while you're training, but then you just don't do anything. And all of a sudden, you get the movie, and everything just starts to unlock, you know, in every area, like your metabolism, your how you feel, right, all the things we've been talking about. So I like that distinction, Jay,

Jay Feldman 41:57

that you made. Yeah, thanks. And so that's part one. And it's, it's saying one that's easy to overlook, when we're focusing on workouts and strength training, we often don't recognize that the other still being sedentary can be independently harmful and tied with every chronic health issue. Long term chronic health conditions. But then on top of that, I do think having some structured exercises greatest well, it can be lifting. And if we're trying to build muscle, that's one heavy, that's really going to be the best way. It can also be other forms of structured exercise, if we're interested in some sort of sport, you know that that works as well do yoga, you know, tennis, pickleball, swimming, I think the most important thing, there's our doing something, we enjoy it, we can do it consistently, we're creating a healthy habit out of it. And sometimes weightlifting is perfect for that. And we can set our goals and always try to try to, you know, improve every time we're in the gym. And we can get a lot of cognitive and physical benefit from that. For some people, it's just not for them, in which case, I think other forms of concentrated movement can still be really beneficial.

Philip Pape 43:02

Give me anybody J, and I'll convince them that it's for them. No, I know, I know, we don't want to do that. But I hear exactly what you're saying. And you got to enjoy it. Whatever it is, you got to enjoy it. That's good for your mental health, too. So don't be sedentary and incorporate intense movement makes a lot of sense. So the opposite of that is like Western culture. And then we want to segue and talk about Western lifestyle culture, including the diet culture and social media, unhealth I know, it's a big thing you talk about, it's obvious to a lot of people, but there might be some subtle things that you want to highlight that are not so obvious. So just tell us about that. What are your thoughts on that?

Jay Feldman 43:38

Yeah. I mean, as we talked about sedentary jobs and lifestyles are we talked about the shift in the food system, and what an average diet looks out looks like now versus 50 years ago versus 50 years prior to that. It's, it's funny, we don't recognize how much it changes because we're in it day to day, right? We're in the culture day to day and so we we, you know, we're looking and we're just a snapshot every year, a couple years, you can really see a difference. But nowadays, I don't think like I think we started to lose sight of the fact that it's not normal to be looking down at your phone all day. Or it's not normal, I should say maybe healthier, it wasn't normal to constantly be having some sort of stimulation, right, some sort of input. You know, people have their TV's on all the time. They have Netflix playing all the time. They have podcasts playing all the time. And of course, I'm not saying you know, we shouldn't, either, but guys, do you have podcasts, of course, Podcasts can be great. But you know, we can't be talking about walking or doing the dishes doing anything. We don't have any time or we give our minds a moment to process things. We're constantly giving them inputs and constantly giving ourselves stimulation. Not only is that reduced our attention span and increase distraction made us a lot less effective at being creative and doing really great productive things to help the world out. Yeah, so and even be thinking about that. Like we've we've totally kind of put that aside. And now we numb and distract ourselves all the time. And so I think that's huge. And talking about mental health, talking about mood, I think we are only making those sorts of things worse with the sort of chronic stimulation. So what I think we can all do is try to carve out time, where there's no inputs, no stimulation. And oftentimes, again, we can pair this with something else it can be with the walk, it can be with, doing the dishes, you know, it can be with sitting outside and getting some sun can be with, you know, some sort of like, household chores are a drive, right? If you have to drive somewhere for a little while, and just, you know, be in silence for a little bit, and it's really uncomfortable at first, if you're not used to this, you're going to want to go to your phone, you're gonna want to meet, you're gonna want to play something. But if you can break through that, you know, typically, it's like just the first five to 10 minutes, you'll actually find that you start to daydream, you start to think about new ideas, you start to, you know, review things that have happened over the last week, and actually start to process things. What one area that I think that this shows up a lot, if we aren't doing this is at night, when we go to go to sleep, if we put our head on the pillow, and our mind starts racing, and we're just thinking about what happened that day or what has to happen the next day. There can be different factors. But one of the main ones typically is that we haven't given our mind time to just process the day process its thoughts prior. So that's, I think, the first thing that comes to mind something that can really make a difference, and help to recenter us refocus on us on the things that matter instead of the things that were being given from whatever we're stimulating ourselves and distracting ourselves with. Yeah,

Philip Pape 46:44

this is really good advice. A few things come to mind first, as a father, I have two daughters. And one of the things we decided when they were young was they wouldn't even look at a TV till they were at least three or four years old. And it was from you know, some child rearing book we read. And you know, my wife's a stay at home mom, so they don't go, they weren't going out of the house. And it was amazing to see all these years later what that did for them, because to this day, they don't want to watch TV, they watch a movie occasionally with us, but it's like a special thing. And they can just their imagination, their attention span their patients, their you know, ability to just sit and do work for long stretches like on paper. You know, even reading in cursive, believe it or not, is impressive. And I'm like as adults, we can learn from that. And you kind of mentioned that. The second thing is when I go for walks, a lot of times I listen to podcasts, but sometimes I don't. And when you don't, you start to come up with ideas, right? And for me, like I can't help but do something. So I started talking out loud, but I think it's still you still kind of processing right? The third thing comes to mind is a lot of people like to journal, I'm not a huge journaler. But I know when I've sat down and just written on it in a notebook with a pen. There's something visceral about that experience that calms you down and gets rid of distraction. So for those listening who are like, yeah, maybe I should try that. And that would help me. And then the last thing is, is going to sleep thing you mentioned, what would you say is there like a pre bed ritual that you like, that's kind of simple for people to do. So if we're,

Jay Feldman 48:10

if we're facing the issues describing like the racing thoughts kind of thing. I do like everything you mentioned there, so we can have fully uncarved time like time just to let the mind wander. But sometimes it's helpful to have structure there and do something like journaling, or some people it is like a conversation with themselves out loud, as opposed to actually journaling. So I think having time to wind down in the evening is crucial. And maybe that starts an hour before bed, I would say at least where we're starting to turn the lights down in the house. If we aren't using devices, we try to put the red filters on there, which most devices have those now to reduce the blue light, which tells our eyes that it's daytime, ideally, unplug from pretty much any device at that point. Anyway, I think watching TV until we go to bed is typically not not ideal, you know, at least give yourself a window between when you watch TV and when you go to sleep. And during that time. I think intentionally winding down with something like journaling can be really good. I think that can help a lot. I think meditation I think reading can be a good one for some people that can fit in that category of still like kind of stimulation. So that can kind of vary, but I think all of those would be generally good practices.

Philip Pape 49:20

Yeah, no, I love to read to I have a Kindle, but it's the E Ink type Kindle with like the red light on it. What you just alluded to those if we're reading like a crime thriller or something in some, you know, psychopaths was murdered. It could wire you up before you go to bed versus some more calm. So like try to find a good spot to stop when you go to sleep is my thought. Cool, man. So I think with the time left, let's just talk about one more topic today because I we mentioned it before a lot of my clients and listeners, especially women are interested in thyroid function and around that. So we're kind of just jumping to that in a jarring way here to try to understand a little bit more the effect of lifestyle I'll diet on thyroid because it seems so prevalent that their thyroid issues people on thyroid medication, we know it's directly affects metabolic rate. And you get the like, well, I'm getting older, it's the hormones, I just can't lose weight kind of conversations. How do we turn that around and get some agency like we talked about before? Totally.

Jay Feldman 50:18

Yeah. So as I think I mentioned earlier, the thyroid is a gland, but it acts as our metabolic dial. So when we're in a sub optimal environment, if we're just not, you know, for eating low calories over time, if we're eating low carbs, if we're doing fasting, if we're overtraining, excessively exercising, we're really low in certain nutrients. Our thyroid is one of the main sensors there, and it decreases how much thyroid hormone it produces, which does decrease our metabolic rate. There's also regulation at the conversion of thyroid hormones. So we have an inactive thyroid hormone called T for an active one called T three. And the conversion between those two is also dependent on all these factors for when we're under stress, we get less thyroid hormone production, and less conversion, so less active thyroid hormone. And this is all really helpful, very adaptive, right? If we're in a famine situation, and we think about this, evolutionarily, I just think it's helpful thought exercise. If we're in a famine situation, we don't want to use as much energy as we were prior, because we won't make it through that famine, we want to conserve energy, we want to turn down our metabolic rate, so we can make it through. That's great for survival, it's not great for feeling really good. It's not great for having great digestion and great brain function, and being able to do the things that we do in our modern day. So what we want to make sure we're doing is signaling the opposite, right signaling or of the abundance in terms of being able to activate the thyroid hormones and produce them. And so, as you were saying, this is becoming incredibly common at with ages by hypothyroidism, meaning low thyroid production, low thyroid conversion, although that's not often even looked for is becoming incredibly common. And what that tells us is that our modern lifestyle, diet stress, and all those things like asleep, is telling our bodies to turn down their metabolic rate. The good news, as you said is we can reverse that it just requires some intervention requires some intentionality. And pretty much everything we've been talking about today is going to apply. For example, eating consistently, getting getting enough carbohydrates, getting enough calories, improving that efficiency of converting food to energy, minimizing endotoxin production from the gut. Another one we didn't talk about as much is the different types of fats. So the polyunsaturated fats, and oftentimes, we'll hear people talking about the seed oils now that are very high in Omega sixes. These fats are pretty effective at blocking certain aspects of thyroid hormone production and conversion, as well as on the more fundamental level interfering with our energy production. And maybe that's a topic for another time to explain how that's happening. But just like that can make a big difference as well, trying to minimize the polyunsaturated fat consumption from the vegetable and seed oils, you know, choosing things like olive oil and coconut oil and butter to cook with instead, if we're using a fat to cook, avoiding fried foods, avoiding most processed foods that have those oils, and that could go a really long way. So it'd be a few things that again, when we're looking at thyroid hormones, it's going to be affected by everything in our environment. So we perceive low calories as stressful, we also perceive a lack of sleep as stressful, right? If we're only getting four to six hours of sleep, or let's say even just six hours of sleep on a regular basis, that's something that our body interprets as something is not ideal. Something's interfering with us being able to get get enough sleep or get the sleep that we need. So that is also going to act as as that kind of same signal. And not only does that affect the thyroid, but then we see the effects on insulin sensitivity, we see the effects on reproductive hormones, we see the effects on body composition. So we can look at this anywhere in our environment. There's pesticide relationships with thyroid and interference with iodine uptake in thyroid hormone production, at the thyroid gland. nutrient deficiencies can be a factor here as well. So you know, if we're talking to Whole Foods, normally we'll have those things covered. But if we're not getting enough selenium and zinc and vitamin A, those are going to be prerequisites here. And so we have this confluence of factors kind of acting against us in our modern world. It's like No wonder we're seeing a hypothyroidism is, I guess, an epidemic. But there are a lot of things that we can do if we're just again, for the most people just focusing on the basic fundamentals gets us so far. Yeah,

Philip Pape 54:31

the ad the ad 20 that we talked about earlier, enough energy, enough carbs, very important because there is a message of like, low carb is going to solve all your hormone issues in perimenopause kind of theme out there, which doesn't seem to apply. I mean, I've seen it firsthand with so many female clients who are just like dragging and a little bit of carbs and all of a sudden everything you know, feels great, so I have nothing against it whatsoever. Okay, so yeah, a lot of things to think about with the Yeah, the oils and the sleep. Keep in all the other things that cause stress. And then there's the one percenters. Like you said, maybe if you've done everything, and you're still wondering if there's more you can do. And of course, I'm sure you can reach out to Jay and watch and read his stuff to get more detail on this. So I like to ask this of all guests. Jay, before we sign off, what one question Did you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?

Jay Feldman 55:18

Oh, man. I mean, I think we covered a lot of, of different things here, I guess. So there's one thing that we breezed over, which was the kind of stress hormesis conversation. So maybe one thing I would point out there, but have a have a nugget, something that we could maybe reconsider their, the way that I view it is that there's a lot of things that can be stressful, that are beneficial. That doesn't mean they're beneficial because of the stress they cause. So when we're talking about exercise, I think there's a ton of benefits to it, in terms of the muscular stimulation. And you know, McKenna transduction that goes on, or the act of mechanical tension, that tends to drive the muscle growth, there's benefits to circulation and lymphatic flow, and of course, the mental side. But I would say that the actual stress that's caused the energy depletion and the cortisol, those aren't actually responsible for the benefits. And so they can kind of shift the way that we think about certain interventions. And what it really means is not that we don't want to exercise. But in general, we don't want to be favoring stress, we don't want to do something just because it's stressful. And instead, distress is something that we want to make sure we recover effectively from and try to mitigate. Whereas the other aspects are, are really great ones. And so what that means, I guess, in some practical terms would be the things that like the fasting, and periods of calorie restriction, and things like that aren't actually beneficial because of the stress they cause. But rather, you know, we talked about the intestinal relationship there and endotoxin relief as a major factor. Again, when it comes to exercise, what this means is, our goal is not to just burn as many calories as possible in an hour, through some, you know, high intensity training or just running on the treadmill, not to say that there's not a place for those things. But the goal is not just burning calories. Rather, the goal is the effects on our musculature and our fascial system. The goal is the effects on our circulation on our metabolic rate, those kinds of things. And I think that can help. You know, there's intricacies there, but maybe that's just a bit of a tease in terms of some ideas there.

Philip Pape 57:15

Yeah, I hear I understand. You're saying what the nuances are right? We don't do the stressful thing. Because of the stress, even though they cause stress. We do it for many other things. And it's good to have those, those things to pursue and drive us to, including that they're fun, like we said before, so where man can listeners look you up that where can they find out more about you and your work?

Jay Feldman 57:33

Yeah, so I know, we touched on a ton of different topics. When it comes to putting a diet together. You know, and recognizing, you know, I mentioned some foods that we might want to reduce some ones that we want to increase or include. Sometimes it can be hard to put that together. So I've created an energy balanced food guide to help listeners determine exactly which foods are going to be optimal to help increase their metabolism, help with body composition, digestion, sleep, energy, all the things we talked about thyroid activity or help with hypothyroidism. So it's a one page infographic. And there's a spectrum on there based on how effectively these foods support your metabolism. And then there's a separate spectrum as well, in the case that we are dealing with those endotoxin issues, certain foods that we might want to be a bit more careful with are going to be noted on there as well. So that energy balanced food guide can be found at Jay Feldman wellness.com/guide and is a free guide. So listeners can go ahead and sign up there and and download the guide.

Philip Pape 58:26

Awesome. So I'll include that in the show notes. For sure. It's G Feldman wellness.com/guide. The energy balanced food guide one page infographic, and of course, check out Jays podcast as well, the energy balance. I get that right. Yeah, the energy balance podcast. Since you're listening to a podcast right now you can find it and follow it. And it's been a pleasure, man. This is we got into a lot of topics I know. But some good nuances that we probably haven't talked about as much on the show. And listener. I'm sure to learn a lot today. So thank you. Yeah, thanks

Jay Feldman 58:52

for having me. Appreciate it.

Philip Pape 58:55

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their weights or weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 4/2/24 Philip Pape 4/2/24

Ep 160: Why “Eat Less, Move More” Is Terrible Advice for Your Metabolism, Hormones, and Fat Loss

How often have you been told to “eat less, move more” to lose weight? Does this advice have any merit whatsoever? Philip explains why the common weight loss advice to "eat less, move more" is terrible. He discusses the importance of muscle mass for a healthy metabolism, how protein and strength training can help maintain muscle, and why simply eating less and doing more cardio isn’t always the best approach. He also talks about the role of carbs in fat loss and the benefits of cardio for metabolic health. Philip also highlights the importance of hydration, good sleep, and stress management for metabolic function. He discusses the impact of alcohol on metabolism and hormones and the importance of whole foods for metabolic health.

How often have you been told to “eat less, move more” to lose weight? Does this advice have any merit whatsoever?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) goes over the real reasons holding you back from sustainable fat loss and optimal metabolic health, and it’s NOT because you’re not doing enough exercise or restricting your calories enough.

Philip explains why the common weight loss advice to "eat less, move more" is terrible. He discusses the importance of muscle mass for a healthy metabolism, how protein and strength training can help maintain muscle, and why simply eating less and doing more cardio isn’t always the best approach. He also talks about the role of carbs in fat loss and the benefits of cardio for metabolic health. Philip also highlights the importance of hydration, good sleep, and stress management for metabolic function. He discusses the impact of alcohol on metabolism and hormones and the importance of whole foods for metabolic health.

Philip bases his notes on the FREE Metabolism audit that you can take on the Wits and Weights website for a personalized assessment: https://www.witsandweights.com/free-metabolism-assessment

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:25 Five-star reviews
6:32 Misconceptions about the "eat less, move more" advice
8:22 The importance of muscle mass for metabolism
9:53 Supporting muscle growth with protein
11:04 The principles of strength training and overload
14:07 Fueling your body and staying active
21:16 Avoiding sedentary behavior
22:30 Why the "eat less, move more" approach is destructive
25:17 Hydration, sleep, and stress management
30:05 Chronic stress and its effect on metabolism
32:56 Whole/unprocessed foods, dairy, grains, and alcohol
42:17 Personalized metabolism audit for optimal health
43:49 Outro

Episode resources:

Take the FREE Metabolism audit to learn about your metabolic flexibility

Episode summary:

When it comes to fat loss and muscle gain, the fitness world is awash with misinformation. One pervasive myth is the oversimplified advice to "eat less, move more." However, this advice ignores the complexities of the human body, particularly how metabolism and muscle mass contribute to sustainable health.

Understanding metabolism is key to achieving sustainable fat loss. It is not just about the calories you consume and burn; it is about the quality of those calories and how they influence your hormonal balance and metabolic rate. The episode highlights the importance of muscle mass in boosting metabolic health, emphasizing that even a small increase in muscle can significantly enhance daily calorie burn. The role of hormones is also dissected, providing a more nuanced view of weight management.

Philip challenges the misconception that carbohydrates are the enemy, explaining why a moderate balance of carbs, proteins, and fats is crucial for peak performance. He debunks the myths surrounding carbs, advocating for their inclusion, particularly around workouts, to aid recovery and provide energy. This balanced approach to nutrition not only supports an active lifestyle but is also key to thriving physically as the years advance.

But what about strength training? Frequency and progression are essential for muscle growth, and this episode provides actionable advice on how to optimize your gym time. The principles of proximity to failure and progressive overload are discussed, teaching listeners how to build muscle effectively. The conversation then turns to the importance of recovery, highlighting how underfueling and overtraining can disrupt hormonal balance and metabolism, ultimately making fat loss more challenging.

Hydration, sleep, and stress management are also covered as essential components of metabolic health. These factors often get overshadowed by diet and exercise, but they are just as crucial. Proper hydration post-exercise is vital, and sleep quality and quantity play a significant role in maintaining hormonal balance.

The episode concludes by emphasizing the power of whole, unprocessed foods in a balanced diet. It encourages a dietary approach that comprises mostly whole foods like meats, vegetables, fruits, seeds, nuts, and grains. The discussion touches on the impact of ultra-processed foods on metabolism and satiety, promoting moderation and mindful eating.

This episode is a comprehensive guide to rethinking health and fitness. It challenges common misconceptions and equips listeners with the knowledge to take control of their metabolic health for a more energized and muscular physique. For anyone tired of fad diets and looking for lasting change, this episode is a must-listen.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Are you tired of hearing the same old advice to eat less and move more when it comes to fat loss? In this episode, we're going to dive into the science behind metabolism and hormones. Revealing why this over simplified approach fails to give you sustainable results. You'll learn how to audit your own metabolism for improved hormones and fat loss. Welcome to the wit's end weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the weights and weights podcast. In our last episode 159 Change how you train hard forever with natural bodybuilders Steve Hall, you learned what it really means to train hard, and how to effectively apply scientific research to your own training. We got into the nuances of key training principles like reps and reserve proximity to failure and minimum effective volume and how these concepts relate to muscle growth. We discussed how to bridge the gap between research and practice based on your individual response to optimize your gains while minimizing injury. Today for Episode 160, Why eat less move more is terrible advice for your metabolism hormones and fat loss. We're going over the real reasons holding you back from sustainable results, and optimal metabolic health. And it's not because you're not doing enough exercise, or restricting your calories enough. Instead, you're going to learn why eat less move more is terrible advice and the roll that other factors like muscle mass fueling your body properly and moving the right way among others play in regulating your metabolism, which is everything. I'm basing my notes off today, the free metabolism audit that I have on my website, which you can access by going to Whitson weights.com. And you click the free Audit button, the big blue button at the top right. And you can take this very quick audit, and you will get a an assessment from me and my team as to what exactly it means. And if you wanted to go through that now, while you're listening to the podcast, the details that I'm sharing today are going to align with those questions so that you understand why I'm asking you that I'm going to be totally transparent. If you listen to this show, and you follow along with the audit, you could almost do your own assessment, I encourage you to submit it anyway, because we go into a little bit more detail than that and clue in on the specific things that are opportunities for you, let's say or strengths for you. And so if you want to get that free audit, just have to go to Whitson weights.com. And click the free metabolism audit in the top right or click the link in the show notes. Always in these episodes, I have a section called episode resources right below the text that gives you a concise bullet list of resources that you can go to that we talked about here. So before we get into the whole metabolism discussion, and I think it's gonna be very comprehensive today, sometimes I get into metabolism, and we cover one specific area. Today, it's kind of the whole ball of wax, and will allow you to decide what's important to you, and where are the areas that potentially you fall short that you want to improve. Before we do that, I wanted to share three more recent five star reviews from Apple. And I'm always grateful for these because not only do they give me good insight into how people perceive the show, but they also help others who are browsing, judge the value of it and whether they should listen like is it for them. And if you are listening right now, and you haven't ever submitted a review, this is one of the best ways you can support me honestly, just head over to whatever your app you use. Most of you, that's apple and Spotify and just submit a rating if it's Spotify, or a rating and review. If it's apple, just take you three minutes. If you need any help on what to write, or you know how to write it, I can let you know. But honestly, if you just sent me a testimonial, it'd be that put that in the review and I would really appreciate it. Okay, so the three reviews the first one is from number two, always helpful and insightful. Always learn from this gentleman good presenter of good info. And I just wanted to include that because I rarely get called a gentleman from somebody who calls themselves number two. Pretty cool. All right, the next one is to the point and helpful. I really like Philips approach to the whole body fitness, from muscles to mindset. He's a great podcast host energetic and thoughtful about the content of each episode. Great show. That term Whole Body Fitness. That's great. I don't know that I've ever used that. Some people use the term holistic, which I'm not a huge fan of just because it has some baggage that goes with it, I guess. But Whole Body Fitness, including your mind is a great way to put it. And oh and that's from linsell sorry, I didn't include them. Name, and the last reviews from some phonics, excellent info. I appreciate Philips no nonsense delivery of the facts. As someone looking to lose weight but retain muscle. I feel like I'm in the right spot, great podcasts easy to listen to, etc. Awesome. Appreciate those reviews concise to the point. They tell me how you feel and what you get out of the show and continue to inspire me and the listeners to keep producing these episodes. Alright, let's get into today's topic. Why eat less move more is terrible advice for your metabolism hormones and fat loss. Alright, let's be honest, for years, for years, and even to this day in the diet industry in the fitness industry, we've been told that the key to losing weight and getting healthy, right, and we can question whether even losing weight is the right goal. Let's we can go there. But the key to this is just eat less and move more. I see it all the time I see people posting on I don't know social media, and they ask for some advice. And occasionally we'll get commenters in there and they're like, eat less, move more. It's that simple. Like just do that, you know, like all these other commenters are just going on and on. And you just got to eat less and move more. The problem is this advice. Besides being simplistic like any bad advice, it overlooks the role of your metabolism and your hormones in regulating body composition, and overall health. Because both the eat less and move more sides of the equation can backfire. Big time, we'll get into the details why what you know, piece by piece here we are going to break it down. But just at a very high level. And I get asked about this on podcast to where they talk about why doesn't that work? Like what's the biggest misconception. And one of the biggest misconceptions is that number one, weight loss is a worthy goal. And number two, weight loss via a lot of running or cardio and then cutting your calories dramatically is the way to go. The problem is the body is very good at adapting the body is very good at saying okay, you want to run a lot, we're going to get really good at running and very efficient and burn as few calories as possible because you'd like to run and your metabolism goes down. And then you have to run more and more and more, if that's the method by which you're trying to lose weight. And then the eating less side well, the less you eat, the more your metabolism adapts downward metabolic adaptation, and the more your hormones down regulate, and the more your body fights back by being conservative and causing you to eat less and less. So both sides of that equation actually do the opposite of what we're trying to do. But rather than just hype on that theory, or principle or idea, the reason I created this metabolism assessment is to help you understand your individual metabolic health because you might be doing 10 out of 20 things perfectly fine to help you metabolism. And then the other 10 things are the opportunities, you might not know what those are, and why they are contributing to an inability to lose weight. And again, we don't want to just lose weight, we want to lose fat. So that means we're gonna lose weight while lifting weights. A separate topic though. And throughout this topic, we're going to tie the concepts from that metabolic assessment to the theme of like, Eat less move more fails to address all of these complexities. So let's get into some some of the science behind it, you know, behind metabolic health. And we're gonna see what's more, I'll say a comprehensive approach, which by the way, none of this can be explained in a 32nd array on Instagram. So, you know, keep listening to the podcast. Okay, so the first part of the assessment, and I might jump around a little bit questions, one, four, and five, focus on the concept of the importance of muscle mass for metabolism, a few things we have to understand first muscle tissue is metabolically active. And all that means is that it burns calories, even at rest, right, that's not something that fat tissue does adipose tissue. And so the more muscle you have, the higher your resting metabolic rate will be. And this is why building maintaining muscle is crucial for fat loss and metabolic health because it gives you that higher baseline of metabolism. Now, before you say, Okay, I'm just going to build muscle, and that's all I have to do. And I'm gonna burn 500 more calories a day, it doesn't quite work like that. The evidence shows us that maybe six to nine calories per pound of muscle that you add. So if you added 10 pounds of muscle, you would burn up to say 90 extra calories a day. Now that's not nothing. But where that gets compounded is that by having more muscle mass, you're probably able to eat more and live at a higher scale weight. Because the muscles denser, you look leaner, you look great and healthy and you can carry more weight on the scale that burns more calories on top of the muscle and being stronger and fitter means you're healthier to be able to go to the gym more often and push and not be as ill and injured and the list goes on. And all of that also helps with your metabolic health and even just calorie burn because you're more active. Okay, so that's covered by questions one, four and five. Now to support that muscle growth and maintaining your mouth So during fat loss, we have to consume adequate protein very common thing we talk about a lot. But if you're new to the show, it's always good refresher. And this is covered by question two of the assessment. It's about protein. You know, protein is the building blocks for muscle tissue, it prevents muscle breakdown. And here we are just supporting that by including as much protein rich food as we can. The simple rule of thumb is eat protein every time you eat. Like if you don't even if you didn't want to track which I'd definitely prefer you track for more precision. But if you didn't want to just audit a typical day, at a high level, do I have protein in every meal and snack? The answer is no. Add those in, take that first step, whether it's animal products, like meat, dairy, or plants like legumes, or even protein powder, totally cool with all of that include lots of protein rich food in all of your meals and snacks. And you'll, you'll help your metabolism tremendously for a variety of reasons. Protein is more satiating, it burns more calories, it helps body composition and helps with muscle. Alright, so these all work together synergistically. In addition to protein, of course, the big thing that we all want to be doing. And hopefully, it's one of the reasons you're listening to the show, or will stick around is engaging in regular strength training, right resistance training, putting a load on your body. And the best approach to that the principle that we care about here is proximity to failure, combined with progressive overload. And if you want to make it even more simplistic, I call this training hard or lifting heavy is really all it is, it's lifting heavy enough weight, for enough volume, as close to failure as you can. And by close means anywhere from like zero to three reps from failure, and then progressing in one of those training variables over time. That's it. Okay. And questions four and five, focus on the frequency and progression of strength training that is so important, it's not enough to say am I strength training, it's Do I have the proper frequency, and progression of strength training frequency is necessary to give you the stimulus to adapt, and then go into the gym again, and push to the next level. If you don't have the frequency. For example, if you go to the gym on Monday, and you don't go again, for six more months, well, you're not going to be able to progressively overload because you wouldn't have maintained that adaptation. But if you go Monday, and then Wednesday, there's a very good chance that that's the frequency you need as a beginner to progress and get stronger each session. So if you don't have enough frequency, you're not going to do it. And then if you don't actually progress, you're not going to build muscle and then the gym time is effectively going to waist and becoming more of exercise or more of just, you know, cardio. And so if I were to give you a simple rule of thumb here, I would say most people would do well to resistance train at least three times a week, and then challenge yourself by gradually increasing the weight and or the reps over time. Simple. Okay? Simple, but not easy, as are many of these concepts. Now, let's talk about the advice, eat less move more again. Because what it usually leads to is muscle loss. If you're just moving more in the form of cardio, and you're not training, or you're not training effectively, and you're eating less, and you know, I've heard people say, who lift weights, I'm going to go to a fat loss phase, and I'm going to stop lifting weights so that I can burn more fat. And that has asked backward. Okay, that is the opposite, because you're just going to lose muscle and get skinny fat, right. So eat less move more often leads to muscle mass loss, and then that slows down your metabolism because when you drastically reduce calories, and you increase your exercise volume, your body's probably going to break down that muscle tissue for energy, it needs the energy, right. And this lowers your metabolic rate, it also makes hard to maintain fat loss in the long run, right makes you live at a lower metabolic rate. And so instead of focusing on this, let's prioritize building and maintaining muscle through adequate protein and regular strength training, okay, uh, beating a dead horse on that one. But it's got to be the top priority for most people here. Alright, so then we get to the next section of the assessment. And by the way, I'm not sharing this. So even if you're watching on YouTube, I'm not like showing the questions. But again, if you go to Whitson weights.com, and you click the big button at the top right free metabolism audit, you could see the 20 questions, just 20 Questions scale of one to five and you can take the whole test in like three minutes. So now let's talk about the importance of fueling your body properly, and staying active for metabolic health, which is different than eat less move more. We're talking about fueling. And we're talking about activity in general, not not necessarily moving more at all costs, and for all modalities. So question three in the assessment talks about carb intake, carbohydrate intake, and I'll just say it again, if you're new to me, if you've never heard me before, I love carbs, I believe and I believe the evidence supports that they are essential for energy for recovery and performance in your world. workouts, if you're sedentary, if you're not training, yeah, carbs aren't going to do you a lot of good, just like most calories aren't going to do a lot of good and you're just gonna have to try to maintain your weight as best you can keep the protein high and avoid losing as much muscle as you can, that's not a great place to be that's surviving, I want to thrive, I want to be strong fit, till I'm 95. And I croak doing a deadlift, something like that, that's my dream. So carbs are gonna help you do that, because most of the time, you should be spending, building muscle, not losing fat, because that is gonna pay off big time. And carbs are gonna help you do that. Alright, contrary to popular belief, and I don't know why it's so popular other than lots of great marketing, cutting carbs to extremely low levels, is not necessary at all for fat loss. And it can hinder your progress even during fat loss. So when I work with clients, and we get down to, you know, kind of tight calories and fat loss, the carbs definitely come down. And if you're a female who's at like, 1200 calories or something like that, the carbs can be around 100 grams or less, maybe. But it's a temporary state of being, and it's still higher than they probably would have been if they were doing keto, or low carb, if your metabolism is much higher than that, which is I'll say, two thirds of people, it's gonna be higher than that, then you're up in the mid one hundreds or higher for carbs, which most people wouldn't say is low carb, and that's during fat loss. While you're building muscle, you could be up in the 200 304, hundreds or more, you know, the guy might be more than that. And, you know, the more the merrier. As long as you've met your protein minimums, and your fat minimums, all the rest goes to carbs. All right? Having said that, people will say, Well, so are you advocating for high carb? No, I'm advocating for what I'd call moderate carb. It's just most people are used to low carb, same thing with the protein equation, are you advocating for high protein? No, it's actually moderate protein. When you look at percentages of this kind of balanced approach, they're actually all reasonable. They're just different than what we're used to. So aim to include a balanced amount of carbs in your diet, if you want to support your workouts, especially around your workouts. And this could include everything from fruits, to grains, to vegetables, to starches, and like legumes and things that have carbs as well, anything, any carbs, you know, I'm not asking you to consume a bunch of added sugar or anything like that. So that's where you know, people get into these straw man arguments. I'm talking about mostly Whole Foods. Alright. So that's how you fuel your body, you fuel your body with what it needs. We talked about protein, and we talked about carbs. And then in addition to proper, oh, by the way, I don't even know if I covered this in the assessment. But step one for most people is just eating more so that you're not accidentally dieting, and that's part of fueling your body as well is knowing that to perform and to build muscle, you cannot be diet. Alright. Alright, so in addition to proper fuelling daily movement and low intensity cardio with with a little bit of medium and high intensity sprinkled in, can support metabolic health. This is very different from thinking I need to go on the treadmill seven days a week and run for an hour. All right. So questions six, seven and eight in the assessment focus on on this concept. And while high intensity exercise can be beneficial for sure, if your priority is lifting and building muscle, and overall metabolic health, I think it's important that it becomes almost like third on the list after training and low intensity cardio. And by high intensity, I mean both medium and high intensity. So for example, medium intensity would be like jogging, and high intensity might be sprinting, right medium might be going for a slightly vigorous bike ride. Whereas high intense, you'd be like spinning, you know, super intense. So I think the less intense the cardio, the more the body's ability to do more of it, you know, higher volume of it during the week without interfering with the other priorities is simple scale. So if you talk about walking, you could pretty much do as much of that as you want, right? Is there a limit to that even potentially at like 30,000 steps, or something where now it's eating into everything else you're trying to do. But for most people, you can walk as much as you want, then you scale up to medium intensity. And I would say you could do several hours of that a week with no issue. And if you're in great cardiovascular health, potentially up to like eight hours a week or even 10 hours a week, if it's like truly just medium intensity where you can do it for a sustained amount of time. And then I would say high intensity, which is like hit training interval training to Bottas. You know, I would limit that to like an hour at most a week. So those are kind of the upper limits. A lot of people are doing too much overall anyway. And you've got to listen to your body, you've got to listen to your recovery capacity. If you're a fat loss, it's probably going to be less of the medium intensity and more of the low intensity. And then the high intensity kind of stays in that same range of up to an hour week. So it's a matter of balance, right? The activities all of this movement definitely helps due to cardiovascular health. Okay, no doubt about that. They can also increase your energy expenditure, which is why a lot of people think they need to do it right to burn more calories and that's true, too. an extent, if you do too much your body will adapt. This is why I like modes of cardio that change up, and where your body doesn't really get used to a particular mode for too long and become efficient at it. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of wits and weights. I started Whitson weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique, and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to Whitson weights.com and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today, I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. And if we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show. The other thing is cardio can support your recovery from workouts. So don't always think of it as as bad thing, cardio is gonna kill your gains, we've got to get out of that old school mindset. And think about a nice balance of having it in there. The other thing I want to mention here, and I'm talking about it more lately is not being sedentary, that's different from moving in, here's why it's different. Think about your typical day or week, if you're a lifter, you might go to the gym three or four days a week for an hour, hour and a half. Alright, great, you got that covered, then you might walk a lot, right? You go for a walk after lunch, go for a walk after dinner. You got that covered. But now how many hours are you sitting in between those activities? probably quite a bit. Most of us who have desk jobs or work remotely, are working at a desk sitting even standing like I'm standing recording this podcast, but I'm in one place and I know I need to fidget and kind of move around and otherwise my back will start to irritate me just standing in one place for too long. So there's evidence that says not being sedentary is independently beneficial, of being active and of course, strength training. So I think of them as three different modes. There's kind of all the cardio modes, there's strength training, and then there's not sitting around for too long at a time. The eat less move more, let's tie it back to that that approach. One of the reasons it's so destructive is it leads to under fueling what you just talked about how detrimental that is just to building muscle, and also overtraining, right? So overtraining, disruption, metabolism, and can lead to burnout and can lead to injury, it can inflame your joints, you know, inflammation, and on and on, you know, tendinitis, all of those things. So when you don't consume enough calories to support your activity levels, your body becomes catabolic. catabolic is the state of breaking down muscle tissue for energy. Protein is anabolic, great the process of building tissue, and carbs are anti catabolic. Let me say that, again. Carbs are anti catabolic, they prevent breakdown, they don't necessarily contribute toward building muscle, but they prevent the breakdown of muscle. So that is why I think carbs are almost as important as protein. This catabolic state, it holds you back in a few ways, it holds back your performance and recovery, it means when you go to the gym, you feel drained, you feel like you can't get another rep. Worse than that, it may cause you to have bad form and get injured, right. But it also leads to hormonal imbalances, it could also lead to metabolic adaptation. And it makes it harder to lose fat in the long run. Now, metabolic adaptation, I've talked about it before it exists, you cannot do anything about it, it exists, it's fine. But you don't want to be causing that adaptation, unless absolutely necessary because you are on a deliberate fat loss phase. And a lot of you listening to this are in a metabolically adapted state perpetually for months and years without really getting the benefit of being in that state. And the benefit would be fat loss, and doing it as quickly as you can and getting out knowing that one of the trades for that is what you're gonna have to eat a lot less. And even less than that because of adaptation. But it's quick, quick meaning a month, three months, you know, even six months could be quick, if you have a lot of weight to lose, but it's not yours. We want to get back to the maintenance and back to muscle building. So instead of pushing yourself to extremes with excessive cardio and calorie restriction, I want you to focus on fueling your body that take a positive approach. If it feels like it's a negative like you are having to do this or I have to cut or I have to say no question it. We want to fuel our body. We want to have a balanced flexible diet incorporating a mix of protein, carbs, fats, and a mix of low and high end tensity activities, right? That's kind of what an athlete does, they balance all these things to train, perform and feel your best. And then ultimately, you're going to look your best as an outward expression of that fitness. So metabolic health, energy, sustainable fat loss are all tied to these concepts. All right, then we get to the next section of the assessment, which focuses on some of the less sexy things, yet they could be the most important for you. Hydration, sleep, and stress management. Okay, so question nine, is about hydration. And we know that being adequately hydrated, regulates body functions. And that supports metabolism, just think about, if you were, if you were depriving all of your cells of a little bit of water, and they all felt a little bit dehydrated, just imagine they're turning into like little raisins. Okay, not this is not a real thing. But just as a metaphor, how well would those cells perform, right, they would probably say, hey, I need to stop doing certain things until I can get more water just like we as humans at the macro level. You know, if you're in the middle of the desert, and you're, you're, you're dehydrated, you don't have any water, you're gonna start to slow down, you're gonna crawl, you're gonna find shade, and you're gonna just hunker down, imagine yourself doing that. And now that is your metabolism, those cells are the things that are converting your energy and using it. And the more you go into that dehydration mode, even mild dehydration, you're going to slow down your metabolic rate. So people don't think about that. But hydration is not just yeah, get your water and get hydrated like this, this ambiguous concept, it's because all of your cells need that water. And if they don't have them, they're going to start shutting down. And I don't mean that in a dramatic way, but they're just going to be more efficient, the mitochondria becomes more efficient. This has been shown in evidence, they've studied this in petri dishes that these things, they just produce the exchange less energy, okay? So aim to drink plenty of water and electrolytes throughout the day, especially during and after exercise after training. The more I learned about this more I realized the benefits of and not as much during I mean during is important, but especially after, and the electrolytes, I don't like to make it too complicated, like the supplements are, most of them are not that great or even worth the money even though I've recommended them in the past and occasionally take some myself, a lot of them like elements have mainly salt. Some, though, have more of the other things like potassium, I'll tell you what, though, a banana has a lot of electrolytes, like just look at the nutrients, look at the minerals in a banana, go log into macro factor and take a look. And you'll see why I love a banana as a pre workout now, or a post workout. Okay, so enough about hydration, questions. 10 and 11 address the other two big ones here, sleep quality and quantity, right. And I have them separate because they're two different dimensions. But both are essential for particularly hormonal balance, which then again, leads to metabolic function, everything's tied your metabolism. When you don't get enough restful sleep, restful, deep sleep, REM sleep, you don't get up more than at most once a day, once a night. And usually that's just because you have to go to the bathroom. Like for me, it's actually kind of annoying. If I go to bed at 10am I alarm set for six. Like clockwork, my body will wake me up at like 545 teams the bathroom, right and I'm like no and 15 more minutes. But I might as well just get up. So I'm talking about more like closer to insomnia or you get up multiple times a night and you're not really sure why. And all of that is disruptive to your circadian rhythm to your hormones. They lead to increased appetite and cravings as well. We know that sleep deprivation makes you hungrier. But it's compounded by lowering your metabolic rate as well. So it's like two things happening at the same time in the wrong direction. One is you burn fewer calories and the other your body's telling you to eat more calories. Now poor sleep also elevates cortisol levels, right. And this goes back to circadian rhythm. Like if you're waking up in the middle of the night. And then if you're on top of that exposed to blue light in the middle of the night, all of these things can elevate your cortisol. And when you get up in the morning and you haven't had enough sleep, your stress levels higher. So stress and sleep go hand in hand. And this promotes fat storage. This promotes muscle breakdown because your body's like I need the energy from somewhere. And it also what's the other thing I was going to mention? Yeah, I've said this before, but it causes greater fat storage in the visceral fat around your organs, which is belly fat. So if you don't want as much belly fat, two big things for that are gonna be alcohol and sleep. Seriously, just those two things right there are massive for the belly fat. So what's the rule of thumb here? Try to get seven or nine hours of quality sleep each night quality sleep meaning no blue light before bed, you know no screens before bed for at least 3060 minutes. Have some sort of calming ritual. Make it cool, make it dark, use a sleep mask if you have to use a cooling mattress like there's so many hacks I'm not gonna to go through the whole list, but identify the one for you that might be the low hanging fruit. Stress is the other critical factor here. Big time. Okay, and these are addressed in I have three separate questions related to stress question 1213 and 14. We know that chronic stress, life stress, elevate your cortisol over time. And this just wreaks havoc on your metabolism, it promotes more fat storage, it impairs immune function. So all you ladies, but also men out there who have had weight loss resistance, you've had trouble, you know, losing fat, you feel like you're on super low calories, and you've already tried bringing up the calories above maintenance and training and all the other things. Stress and Sleep are probably the things that are still holding you back, honestly. And you may not even notice it, because you are used to you're used to so much stress in your life, being a caregiver, a spouse. And by caregiver, I mean could be your children could be your you know, elderly parents or older parents. It's work, its obligations, its finances, it's all the things. And again, sleep and stress go hand in hand. So this is where finding even 30 minutes a day to yourself for relaxation, or mindfulness, meditation, deep breathing, tech, even just a nap. Like if you have a one hour block, and you got six and a half hours of sleep last night, maybe the best way to reduce your stress is to sleep more, it's just get a 30 minute nap, put your sleep mask on your head set in or earplugs in, set an alarm for 45 minutes, probably take you 10 minutes to get to sleep, and then you get a half hour nap. All right. All of this will lower your stress levels and support your well being and this is translated into your metabolic rate. That means you could eat more food. If I could just say this whole list is do this and you can eat more. Do I have you? I have you there? Tell yourself that but this entire list any of these things improve, you can eat more food. So the Eat less move more often looks overlooks the importance of these as well. Because when you're chronically under fed, and you're over exercised, how can you prioritize these? You're just kind of dragging? How do you even prioritize these things, right. And so neglecting hydration, sleep stress can definitely sabotage your fat loss efforts and have other health costs consequences that we touched on. All right. So I think those lifestyle factors are just as important as nutrition and training. I mean, they're all important, it's what we have to say, and it's going to come down to what's most important for you right now, the lowest hanging fruit, that's why I encourage you to go to Whitson weights.com, click the button at the top rate free assessment, take the assessment, what you'll get is by email, you'll get a rating of your metabolic assessment, and you'll get an understanding of why. And then you can go from there, decide what you do about it. Okay, so the next section is about nutrition or food quality, as well as alcohol. So now we get into more of the food stuff, questions 15 and 16 focus on the importance of consuming whole unprocessed foods. Now, the importance of it means the majority of your food like 80 to 90% is whole unprocessed foods, it doesn't mean you're 100% clean, quote unquote, or you are cutting everything out that's processed, it doesn't mean that at all. In fact, most people in the Standard American Diet consume something like 70% of their food from processed sources, ultra processed sources, this could be everything from fast food to packaged foods to like cured meats, and the list goes on. And unfortunately, they're the population that we get a lot of our data from that, where we correlate with, say, for example, red meat, when you see studies that, you know, there's this persistent myth that red meat is, quote unquote bad for you. And yet, when you tease it apart from the standard population who eats a lot of processed red meats, you realize No, actually it's if it's part of a healthy dietary pattern is perfectly fine. And if anything, red meat is highly nutritious, so we get into these dichotomies in our brain, and we start cutting out foods or food groups. And that can be actually detrimental. Also, from a practical perspective, any living and enjoying life perspective to be so acidic monk like about this, and requiring the sheer discipline and willpower to do that is definitely a massive problem. Because it doesn't align with just living and enjoying your life and feeling like Food is fuel. Instead, you're feeling like it's, you're punishing yourself in some way. Anyway, so when I say the importance of consuming whole and unprocessed foods, it's like 80%, which doesn't take a lot of effort once you think about it. And if you're tracking your food, just you go to the grocery store, you buy some things around the edge of the store, animal products, plant products, and starches and grains even and you start to mix them together in some meals, and you enjoy yourself and then hey, I want ice cream for dessert. I'm gonna have ice cream for dessert. That's my process, food allotment or whatever and bilott minutes pretty big allotment 10 to 20% So I wanted to get that out of the way. But going back to the importance of Whole Foods, these are foods that are just minimally processed or not processed. So we're talking, you know, meat, vegetables, fruit, seeds, nuts, grains, all of that. Now, some people might argue that grains are processed. And so this gets into the whole subjective argument of what do we mean by processing? There's levels of processing? And people would say, well, protein powder that's processed. Yeah, it's minimally processed, for sure. But then you could argue that every single food in the grocery store is processed, because you didn't go and slaughter the cow, did you? You didn't go and pick the carrot out of the ground, did you? It had to get quote unquote, processed along the way. So let's not mince words, or let's not be semantic about it. And just just assume that if it came out of the ground, or came from the animal, and had minimal processing, or no processing, that it's more on the whole side. And so grains, you know, yeah, we farm the wheat, and then we mill it into flour, and then you bake bread that is all processing, but you haven't really altered that, you know, chemically. And then people are like, Well, yeah, but they enrich it and this and they bleach it, and this, okay, I get it. So I'm never gonna win the argument. 100%. But I think you know what I mean, a piece of bread is probably less processed than a Dorito. Okay, that's where I'm getting it right to read all comes from corn that has to get mixed with other ingredients. And it's a bunch of macros thrown together from different sources. All right, I can go on and on and on, I better shut up about this. Whole Foods. Why do we like them, they are rich in nutrients, they're rich in fiber, and they're rich in other compounds, other compounds that are not on the food label, folks. Okay, if you look up nutrition facts, for an apple, there's a whole bunch of stuff in an apple, that's not in the nutrition label. Don't forget that. I was talking to my wife the other day about it, because we were saying how like, it's so great to have a variety of these fruits and vegetables in your diet, even though many of them look the same nutritionally, right, from a macros perspective, and even a micros perspective. But then they have specific compounds that complement each other. And it's nice to have that variety, because you just never know what's gonna be great for you, you know, have the blueberries have the apples have the bananas have the kiwi, like have it all in there. And then of course, the fiber and the nutrients are really important as well. So we want to aim to have at least 80% of our diet consists of whole unprocessed foods, so that vegetables, whole grains, lean proteins, healthy fats, but I am going to throw in dairy and grains in there, folks, I'm sorry, you know, anti gluten folks and anti dairy folks, if you can tolerate those things, have them in your diet. That's my position. Now, if you notice issues with digestion, with gut health, with your skin with anything, and you can pinpoint it to a specific food, then great, that's information for you that you can act upon. I'll be honest, I probably have some mild intolerances to things that I eat. And I may not even be aware of it, because I haven't done the elimination diet to get that down in detail. But it also hasn't prevented me from enjoying my life. Now I also have an autoimmune condition. So Could somebody argue that if I cut out a whole bunch of foods that would go away? Maybe? Do I want to make that trade off? Probably not. So you got to decide for you. It makes sense. All right. Now, ultra processed foods, if you have too much of them, they are definitely going to disrupt your metabolism disrupt hormone balance, for a number of reasons. The main reason with Ultra processed foods is just because they're so calorie dense and devoid of nutrients that you're just you're consuming a bunch of macros, so a source of energy but not getting any other benefit out of it. And they tend to not fill you up. So you over consume. Even if you're tracking and you don't over consume, you're going to be then hungry, you're either going to over consume, or you're gonna be hungry, right? It's one or the other. The reason we over consume is because we're hungry. So the more whole foods and nutrient dense foods, the less hunger becomes an issue. And then alcohol is the other thing I want to talk about because that definitely, there is no positive to alcohol. Okay, I'm not saying that to shame you. I still drink alcohol, even having talked to experts over through the podcast about, you know how, again, there's no positive to alcohol, why do we do it? And there's a lot of social stigma. There's a, there's a lot, I have clients who have had these conversations with and they're like, I just can't do it. I have to have a drink with my friends and get that buzz and that's part of the enjoyment. I'm like, okay, that's your choice, do it. I'm not going to judge you at all. Can you still meet your goals with drinking alcohol? Yes. And all I want you to do is evaluate how it makes you feel and achieve those goals. And experiment with the alternative experiment with not having alcohol in your diet for a few weeks, just from a health perspective, even if it's just for fat loss. Just try it out. That's all I'm saying. Obviously, alcohol has a bunch of what some people call empty calories, which is kind of a misnomer because there's both carbs and alcohol. The alcohol gets metabolized. It does create energy. But guess what that energy just gets stored as fat, which can of course be offset if you're just in a negative energy state if you're in a calorie deficit. So it's not like you can't lose weight while drinking alcohol. It's This doesn't help that much. And then it also causes other hormonal disruptions that do affect fat burning and fat storage, your sleep your hormones, that is the part of it. That is, I think, more serious, I have an expert coming on the show, specifically to talk about thyroid and your health. And now I know my audience, a lot of your listeners want to know a lot about the supplementation, which will be a tiny piece of that, but mostly, it's gonna be about lifestyle, which is I think, what we have the most control over who wants to be on a bunch of meds, right? So we're gonna talk about thyroid, other hormones that affect the metabolism, or, of course, cortisol, the stress hormone, and your reproductive hormones. And all of these need to be in some sort of balance. And oftentimes, that balance is driven by the stress you place on your body stressors, like under eating, like overtraining, right. And then those hormones, not only do they affect your weight management and inability to lose fat, they cause fatigue, they cause mood swings. And who knows what else, there's many other symptoms, right? So, muscle mass, nutrition, sleep, stress, et cetera, all of these contribute to your hormone balance and the hormones themselves, right. Of course, if you have a hormone imbalance from because of a medical condition that needs to be looked at, I'm not a medical provider, I don't dispense medical advice. But if you've got everything else dialed in, and you know, for a fact that you're just your lifestyle is on point, there may be a medical situation under there that needs to be addressed as well. The point with this whole thing is we want to address the factors that cause our metabolism to go up or down in a comprehensive way. Because that is going to directly correlate with hormone function, and your ability to regulate your metabolism and live a fun, fit life where you get to eat a bunch of food, train feel great, and you know, be the fittest person on the block for decades to come. It's what we all want. Alright, so eat less move more, I hope you have gotten the message that it's over simplified, and it's also totally ineffective. It is terrible advice. Right? Building maintaining muscle mass fueling your body properly, staying active managing stress, prioritizing sleep, focusing on nutrition, quality, these actually make the big difference in optimizing your metabolism and your hormones. So the metabolism audit or the metabolism assessment that I've referenced throughout the episode, it's going to help you identify areas for improvement and create a personalized plan for you, which I think is where the rubber meets the road. It's taking this information on this podcast and applying it to you directly. And so I want you to go to Whitson weights.com, click the button at the top for the free metabolism audit. And you're going to answer the 20 questions. This is going to help you gauge your metabolic health. This will help you identify specific strategies for you. The cool thing is if you want to do it while listening to this podcast, you can then think about your answer. Still be honest with yourself about where you are, you know, be brutally honest, that's the only way to get help. But now you put it in the context of what I was sharing today. Okay, I think that covers it again, go check out the metabolism audit by going to wwe.com Clicking free metabolism audit at the top right or click the link in the show notes. And in our next episode 161 The bioenergetic solution to low energy and chronic health issues. With Jay Feldman, you will learn about bio Energetic Health. What is that exactly? You're gonna have to stay tuned to find out. Jay is going to discuss the impact of maximizing cellular energy on mental health, metabolism, longevity, and more. He will address modern diet, culture, stress and lifestyle in the context of your health, and offer practical solutions for adopting a sustainable energy boosting diet without relying on restriction or willpower. Make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast app right now to get notified of that and all future episodes when they come out. And as always, stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the wits end weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of wit's end weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their wit's or wait. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 3/29/24 Philip Pape 3/29/24

Ep 159: Change How You "Train Hard" Forever with Natural Bodybuilder Steve Hall

What does it mean to "train hard"? Is it training to failure, progressive overload, intensity, something else? Find out the answers in today's episode.

Today, Steve Hall, the founder of Revive Stronger, a seasoned natural bodybuilder and podcast host, shares his expertise on essential training principles. Philip (@witsandweights) invited him to the show to share his insights on what it means to "train hard" and how to apply scientific research to your training effectively. They discussed reps in reserve (RIR), proximity to failure, minimum effective volume for muscle growth, and more.

Steve's journey in the fitness world began after a near-death experience at the age of 20 where he suffered a severe head injury. During his recovery, he discovered bodybuilding, which helped him regain control of his life and ignited his passion for self-improvement.

With over a decade of gym experience and years of coaching experience, Steve has definitely made a name for himself in the world of natural bodybuilding, placing second at the WNBF World finals in 2021. Steve's approach to training and nutrition is grounded in the latest scientific research, which he combines with extensive practical knowledge to help his clients achieve outstanding results.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

3:19 The link between bodybuilding and personal values
8:16 "Training hard" for hypertrophy
13:56 RIR and proximity to failure vs. other hypertrophy principles
19:20 Assessing repetition ranges
28:42 Applying research findings to individual training
39:43 Assessing and optimizing individual response to training
44:52 Full Range of Motion (ROM) vs. partial reps
52:22 Developing personal heuristics for effective training
59:39 The question Steve wished Philip had asked
1:01:35 Where to find Steve
1:02:20 Outro

Episode resources:

Steve’s coaching and podcast website: revivestronger.com
IG: @revivestronger
The Improvement Season Podcast

Episode summary:

Embarking on a journey through the realm of bodybuilding, the latest podcast episode with Steve Hall, the mastermind behind Revive Stronger, offers a treasure trove of insights for anyone looking to elevate their physical training. As a seasoned natural bodybuilder, Steve provides a unique perspective on optimizing workouts for muscle growth and overall physical excellence.

Throughout the episode, Steve dissects the fundamental principles that govern effective training. Emphasizing the importance of specificity, overload, and progressive overload, he shares his wisdom on creating fitness programs that are productive, rather than perfect. His insights underscore the significance of progression in training, offering listeners a pathway to achieving their fitness aspirations.

In a candid reflection, Steve recounts his personal journey in bodybuilding, which began in the aftermath of a severe head injury. This transformative experience instilled in him values of control and self-improvement, underscoring bodybuilding's potential to serve as a conduit for broader life progression. He also delves into the technical aspects of training, including reps in reserve (RIR), proximity to failure, and minimum effective volume (MEV), guiding listeners on how to balance scientific research with individual physiological responses to maximize gains while reducing injury risk.

Steve's discussion further explores the psychological aspects of pushing oneself to the brink of failure, an often underappreciated facet of muscle growth. By sharing actionable strategies, he enables listeners to break through psychological barriers and embrace a mindset conducive to productive workouts. This understanding is crucial, particularly for those new to resistance training who may underestimate their capabilities, leaving untapped potential on the gym floor.

As the episode progresses, Steve illuminates the delicate balance between training intensity and recovery. He highlights the concept of max recoverable stimulus versus fatigue, illustrating the necessity of customizing training regimens to one's unique body responses. Through his expert lens, we gain an insider's look at the complex process of optimizing muscle recovery and growth.

In an enlightening segment, Steve shares his experience with calf training techniques and the role of biofeedback in achieving growth. He emphasizes the importance of understanding individual nuances, such as equipment preferences and full range of motion, in crafting effective training strategies. Listeners are encouraged to consider additional metrics beyond lifts, such as hunger and irritability, to refine their fitness and nutrition plans further.

Finally, the episode underscores the continuous learning journey in fitness. It advocates for a productive program that evolves with one's personal experiences and body responses. This philosophy resonates deeply with listeners, empowering them to embrace dedication and knowledge as they ascend to new heights in their quest for physical excellence.

In summary, the podcast episode with Steve Hall offers a comprehensive guide to mastering physical excellence. By blending scientific insights with practical strategies, it serves as a catalyst for listeners to transform their physique and mindset. It is a testament to the power of bodybuilding as a platform for self-mastery and personal growth.

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Transcript

Steve Hall 00:00

if people ever feel like lost and confused with these things, definitely pull it back to the principles especially when they get lost into program design. If they just pull it back to Okay, so specificity, overload, progressive overload, and what I need to achieve in my program, and then don't overthink it, don't try make the perfect most optimal program possible because we can't possibly know what that is. Get something together. Productive Do you feel like is hard and you're progressing overtime?

Philip Pape 00:29

Welcome to the wit's end waits podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Whitson weights community Welcome to another episode of The Whitson weights Podcast. Today, I am thrilled to welcome Steve Hall founder of revived stronger hosts of the podcast of the same name and competitive natural bodybuilder. Now I invited Steve on the show I'm a big fan of his and a follower of his show, and I wanted him to share his insights on what it really means to train hard, and how to effectively apply scientific research to your own training. In that context, we'll get into the nuances of training principles like reps and reserve, IRI, our proximity to failure and minimum effective volume MeV and how these concepts relate to muscle growth. We'll discuss how to bridge the gap between research and practice based on your individual response to optimize your gains while minimizing injury risk. Now, Steve's journey in the fitness world began after a near death experience at the age of 20, where he suffered a severe head injury. And during his recovery, he discovered bodybuilding, he revived stronger where the name comes from, which helped him regain control of his life and ignited his passion for self improvement. With over a decade of experience in the gym, and years of coaching under his belt, Steve has definitely made a name for himself in the world of Natural Bodybuilding. He plays second at the WNBA of worlds. In 2021, Steve's approach to training and nutrition is grounded in the latest scientific research, which he combines with extensive practical knowledge to help his clients achieve outstanding results. And in my opinion, his show the revived stronger podcast is one of the best evidence based podcasts out there. So go follow it when you're done listening to this show, Steve. Oh, man, thank you so much for coming on.

Steve Hall 02:31

The thank you so much. As we were saying all fair, it's always nice to be on the other end. It's always an honor to be brought on. And yeah, have my thoughts brought to the floor a little bit more. Because I get to speak to some of the brightest minds in the industry. I'm very thankful of that. But yeah, there's a lot of thoughts going on. And as I'm sure as a podcast host, you know this when you're listening to the other person talk, so many thoughts go through your head, and you don't always get to say them. So it's quite nice to be here on the other end. And thank you for the very kind intro.

Philip Pape 02:56

Absolutely, yeah. And it is a challenge of trying to really listen and absorb the message while we're just having that conversation and bring out your expertise. And it's true. And I went back and looked at your feed because I listened to every episode of yours. You're almost always interviewing these big names. And sometimes I'm like, Man, I just want to hear from you, Steve, you know, and so wanted to bring you on the show, because people probably have the same thought. And so before we get into the topic itself, I'm not going to say hey, what's your story, per se, I don't want to go that generic. I want to link this to the idea of improvement of how bodybuilding itself and building muscle while it could seem to be this vain thing that certain people are just obsessed with, right. And there's definitely certain behaviors that go behind that with like, food and orthorexia, and all these other topics. You're very passionate about it. So am I we have podcasts that where we talk about this stuff all the time. And they seem to be linked to values like, you know, having control of improving yourself. Tell us about the link between those. Yeah, for

Steve Hall 03:53

sure. Yeah, I think on the surface level, bodybuilding probably looks like so superficial. And so just like egotistical and vain and just like weird, right, especially competitive bodybuilding, where you see the guys and just the tiny little thongs on stage and they're all tanned up and greased up. You're like, what are these guys doing? They're flexing. And it was actually hilarious. This is a slight side note, but I saw a real it was Arnold, like Arnold Schwarzenegger. And he was like posing in front of this woman. I think it's in a film or something that was like he was part of, but it was like a meme. It was like, when you're a bodybuilder and all you've got about you as the gym and you go on a first date for the first time. And she's just like, she just starts laughing at him. He's like, this is a front double bicep. This is our front load spread, like trying to impress her. She's just what the hell like laughing her head off. So I think from the outside, that's the way people view it. But to actually like the process behind it. It's kind of like that's the peak of the iceberg. But like underneath, it's like, well, that's the chunk of the iceberg and that's where all these other values and things can be found. And for me like bodybuilding has given me a route to better health, for sure. or it's give it gives me direction every single day in my life. And it's also given me essentially a business. And it gives me something to look forward to every day. So yeah, there's so much you could dive into with that question. But the quote I love, I don't know exactly where it's from, but it's like progress is happiness. And it's a quote I love and that's the way I feel about bodybuilding every day, I feel like I'm progressing towards something like I get out of bed. And I always feel like I have a purpose, it doesn't matter what's going on in my life, what stressors are going on, if things have been bad with the business or at dinner, or had an argument with my girlfriend, or whatever it might be, I know that day, I've got a workout to do. I've got some nutritional goals to achieve. And if I do that, I know I've put in another little penny into my like muscle growth deposit. And it feels so great to be able to have that. And it also gives you kind of direction with various questions that come out at you. So if you just sort of a lot of decision making can be hard if you have no direction in your life that I'm like, This is gonna make me a better bodybuilder. Like I can look at so many things that I make 10 have choices in my life. Like, shall I watch this extra episode of whatever show I'm watching? Or should I go to bed? What's gonna make me a better bodybuilder, let's get to bed, like these various things. So yeah, for me, it gives me such a sense of purpose and direction that I owe so much to the bodybuilding as a whole, it's not even miss the competitive side is something else. But the whole philosophy behind progressing yourself bettering yourself, having that purpose, the routines and habits that have to take place, and how you can put those into other aspects of life, like growing a business or into relationships. And even with us, you mentioned, like you've been in the evidence based space for like five or so years now. Like, understanding that there's the science and principles behind this. And you can be skeptical about other things that you hear in life where you just don't accept someone's word at face value in this, if something sounds too good to be true, or what have you. You can be like, I'm gonna look into that myself. So it's given me some skill sets for day to day too. So yeah, like I said, I want to bodybuilding.

Philip Pape 07:05

And there's so much there that I resonate so hard with and I'm sure a lot of people do, but the idea that the physical pursuits required by bodybuilding, even, even if you're not competitive, even if you're just trying to, you know, be a lifestyle enthusiast in this translate to everything else, right. And I often say the physical has to almost has to come before everything else, because it enables those things. But your idea of of incorporating passion and excitement and purpose and driving these all together, and then they translate to business and everything else is a great message. I got a text from a friend this morning, he was quoting, I think, The Four Hour Workweek, Tim Ferriss, and he said, excitement is the more practical synonym for happiness. And it is precisely what you should chase it is the cure all and I get that from you have like, the passion and the excitement, you know, comes before the other things and then hey, you get to make a business out of this too, because you just love it so much. People want to hear and get your help. And it's a win win for everybody. There's no cognitive dissonance. So it's a great message, Steve. So then, like, let's segue into the topic as smoothly as you can, which is training hard. And honestly, a lot of this is, you know, how do we train hard? How do we progress in life and in bodybuilding? And so let's talk about the bodybuilding side and hypertrophy. Even when I go on shows, people say, Hey, you talk about lifting heavy what does that mean? Are you talking about training hard? What does that mean? Like just answered that that like super easy question, Steve. Right, super easy question to answer. And then we'll dive into details. Yeah,

Steve Hall 08:33

it's a good one. Because I think you have to specify training hard for the goal of muscle growth, because there's a lot of things I could do in the gym, that would be freaking hard, but they didn't grow me any muscle like squatting on a BOSU ball, or like a dyno sprint doing treadmill sprints. I've done those before. And that was hell. Class. You know, there's a lot of things you can go into the gym, and just like, I think most people think training hard is just like exhausting yourself. I know, I used to own a t shirt that said go hard or go home. So it was just, that's the kind of characteristic of, of bodybuilding, especially in the UK, with Dorian Yates and everything. It's like hard training, you know, but I think hard when I translate it to like a scientific term could look be looked at as overload maybe, like it has to be overloading for the body. So it has to be hard enough to cause a stress response for the body to have to respond to so as to be overloading and how do we make something overloading in regards to specifically for muscle growth? I look at there has to be overloading me and overload threshold for proximity to failure. In fact, some people may be able to grow very, very far from failure. I think there's studies on like, newbie cycling and they grow. Most of us who have been training for a few years are not growing from cycling. We won't maintain our muscle from cycling, we probably need to be quite close to muscle or sorry to failure as we're going to speak about a little bit more. So when I consider that for someone who's been training consistently for many years Like practically three or four reps from failure is about as far as you probably want to be going much further from that, you probably don't know where you are in terms of proximity, like, it's just too easy to really know that you're training hard enough reps need to have slowed down involuntary to you trying your hardest. And then you know, the body's actually trying like that's as simple as it gets, like, oh, a set actually got hard, it felt challenging when I was going through it. And then the other aspect of hard and a threshold for growth is you need to do enough of it, doing just one set of squats a week is I'm it wouldn't grow my quads or glutes, it would probably maintain them, I don't know, it might not to be honest, it's probably under my maintenance volume, probably maintain quite a lot of people's. And like I said it would someone new to the gym, I mean, that would grow them for sure. But after a while, it would no longer meet that hard slash overload threshold for growth. So we need to do enough of it to be able to grow. And that's that minimum effective volume you spoke of like that MeV, you need to do enough of that. And when I think of how low is that, as I've already kind of demonstrated, the newer you are to the gym, the less well adapted you are, the less of a stress, the less hard and hard is a lower threshold for you. But the longer you've been training and practically for anyone who's been training for a few years, like it needs to be a significant amount every week that you're doing there, the actual lower amounts, there probably depends on the muscle group, it will depend on the person, it would depend on the exercise selection or depend on how close you go to failure, there's so many things it depends on. Because there's a lot that goes into productive program design, I would view it as four to six direct sets for a muscle group is probably going to start growing you. So if you're at four to six, and you're anywhere from three, four RSR closer to failure, I think you're doing a good job to probably be growing. But I would test that assumption, see if there's progression. And I guess that segues into a slightly different discussion. But that's how I view heart is I would translate it into overload. And then I would think of overloading specifically for muscle growth, meeting thresholds for relative intensity. So it needs to be close enough to failure. And all add one actually, it needs to be sufficient volume, which I look at as sets of proximity to failure. And then actually the other layer there would be it has to be heavy enough. The reason I didn't introduce it is because there's such a wide range of kind of rep ranges, or loads that would grow you, I think you're all the way up to like 30% of your one rep max has been shown to grow at least over the studied time period. And so like five to 30 repetitions is probably a great range to be in with being that proximal to failure, you could go heavier and still meet growth thresholds is just inefficient. That's why I tend to have five is my kind of cap there. And above 30, we just don't have good data to suggest that you're growing particularly well at that point. And practically, even going above 20 reps isn't particularly fun. I think now, then it's a great thing to do, potentially, but it's not much fun. Yeah,

Philip Pape 13:00

yeah, I know, there's a lot of personal and practical aspects to these. And I want to get into that because you definitely let it laid out some boundaries. Like we can't, you know, we say it depends a lot, but it's not like it depends on anything. It depends on you certain principles and certain boundaries. So I like some of the metrics you gave us where you said, okay, there has to be a stress response. So we can adapt and grow. What does that mean? Okay, we have to push hard enough, okay, there's a certain number of reps from quote, unquote, failure, which again, is a could be a squishy thing for someone who's new, we can talk about that. And then Enough, enough of it with volume, because you can't just go you know, once a month or once a week and do two sets, and then heavy enough, and that's the other argument, I'm glad you gave a very wide rep range, you know, because there's definitely some dogmatic thinking, and especially old school, like strength versus hypertrophy rep range. And, and then you've got the effective reps model on the other side, which is like any rep range just has to eat 100 reps at the end. But let's drill into one of those, I want to talk about the psychological aspect of pushing that boundary when you're kind of a newer or even intermediate lifter, who may maybe it hasn't worked with the coach, and so they haven't really been pushed. What does it mean to feel like you are close to failure? Or even to have that heuristic of like, this is my failure point. What's a good way to get there?

Steve Hall 14:17

Yeah, it's a really good question. Because I effectively, I wouldn't, like it's hard to if you've never trained to failure, know what the reps before that unnecessarily feeling. Like, good example. I always use this put someone who hasn't really trained before and a leg extension. And they'll do like 10 reps. They'll start burning and they're like, man, that's that's I can't do any more. And then you'd be like, no, no, you're good. Nothing slow down. You're still producing really good concentric force. And then they maybe do another 10 And that's actually been examined within research when you get people to just like pick a load for how many reps they can do but then you push them and you give encouragement Hey, they get like a double the number of reps that they necessarily thought they were But if you're looking at people and even newbies who haven't used RL before, if you get them to rate it bike as they go, so you don't just get them to pick a load and then do 10 And dicho. Yeah, I thought that was my max, but You encouraged me to more, if you get them on there, you give them the load, and then they're like, or hammy, Jeff left, they realize they're better at writing IGI have more in me than I thought. And they can keep going. And they're actually much better at gauging it. The latest meta analysis, I think, essentially looked at saying that most people around a rep away from where they thought and I kind of they undershoot by a rep, so they probably had one more in them than they thought. So people are pretty good at gauging it. And when you go and you train it, but it's actually a quite nuanced discussion, because I think some people think it's like, hey, so three or four reps or reserve, you get a slow rep, the other ones before that, they all look about the same. So maybe it's a two second concentric, and it's dropped to one second. And then it's like, okay, then drops, like, again, 25% less than that, that's and that less than that, and then you hit failure. But for some lifts, and you're very know this to Philip, like, you can sometimes just hit a wall, like as soon as I hear. So Rob, that's one area, I got one more good rep in me. And then I'm done. I think that comes down to just different leverages on various exercises and things like this. So if we're talking about like a full range of motion lat pulldown, the lats themselves are strongest in the lengthen position at the top. But the exercise itself is hardest in the short position where your weakest. So suddenly, like you can't grind out reps maybe the same way, you could grind out some more partial reps up at the top. So it's a little bit different there. Versus pressing where if you're doing a dumbbell press, yeah, I mean, that's going to be a little bit more matched in terms of what's strongest, and where it's hardest in terms of that length and position, your strongest sort of hardest in that bottom position. And then some machines are just like a bit wacky Oh, no, I have this pendulum squat I'm using and even different pendulum squats can differ. I've got a Watson like old school pendulum squat I'm using. And I know as soon as I hit like a slow rep on there, I'm like, I am quickly toast, I watch a video of it. And I'm like, Ah, it looks like I had more in the tank. But I just know from having gone to failure that I don't. And I think that's the really cure all is maybe you start your training where you're like, Yeah, I'm getting some soil reps is feeling hard, it's feeling challenged, I have to really concentrate to get those repetitions. And they've slowed down, I've kind of finished that set. And I'm like, Yeah, my muscle felt challenged. But then you look to progress it over time. Progressive overload is a super important aspect of muscle growth, you look to add a rep, or add a small amount of load. And over the weeks maintaining good technique, you're eventually going to hit a point where like, I tried for a rep, I couldn't get it. And then you know where that is, you know how the reps have for it felt and you also have logbook data. So say you hit a benchpress 100 for 10 reps, the 11th rep you failed, you had a spotter, like you're you're still alive, you're fine. You know, if you start a new mesocycle, and you want to be three reps, reserve 100. For seven, you're pretty confident, all things being equal, you had a good night's sleep you ate well, you're not dieting, you can do that. And that'll be a good gauge of where your three Reo is hopefully over time, three REO now becomes like 102.5 for seven, and you'd like get stronger over time. That's that's obviously the goal is kind of marker for muscle growth, your strength increases. But essentially, I think that's probably the best way to go about it. I think some people just say, hey, like Pete newbies aren't good at training, in proximity to failure. So just train them all to failure all the time. Because they're not good at it. And I'm just like, it's a risky approach. First of all, because their technique often isn't great, especially as they approach failure, it's becomes very risky. Also, as we spoke about before, the people who can grow the easiest, are the newer people, and they can leave more in the tank, so you don't have to push them to that point. So I would say not even to take a bike, a barbell back squat, or even a bench press, maybe if you've spotted you can take it to failure. But do it on safer lifts generally, like do it on your maybe a smith machine squat is relatively safer, a hack squat would even be even better leg extension fine, like take it to the house, you know, nothing bad is going to happen if you do that. But yeah, for like your barbell free weight lifts, you probably don't want to do that so often. But I think you can learn enough from these other lifts, that you kind of get that experience. So hopefully that kind of answered the question.

Philip Pape 19:19

Definitely answered the question with as much you know, very comprehensively as I expected. So there's there's little pieces in here, I want to poke out pick out for what I know the listeners thinking. First kind of going backward. I know when I first started training, heavy or hard, you know, to actually using progressive overload and tracking sets across was also very helpful tool just because I didn't know my failure point, right? Where sets across, you know, progress each session, it starts to get into that failure regime. And then then you're like, Oh, now I know what failure is. So that's interesting, but a few things you mentioned. One is the slowing down. There's a lot of we want to get objective with some of these right? So when I think of slowing down, and I'm sure you've had this experience where You feel something's slowing down, you watch it back and it didn't slow down at all on video, right? And there's like this dis dilation effect almost. And in other cases, it's obvious like you said, with the lat pulldown, you just start to pull in, it literally just won't go. It slowed down. So what are your thoughts on that? Doesn't matter that much? If you're just progressing, or like, should people use video, we're not going to have velocity sensors or anything like that. But what do you think? Yeah,

Steve Hall 20:24

I was glad you brought velocity up, because I know that that's something that's being looked into our volume velocity trackers, but it just spoke to Jake, from data driven, driven strength, who they're part of Mike Zardoz, his lab, and they've been looking at the lacI trackers and trying to use them in practice as maybe a way of like, hey, it's a small investment for someone who maybe like ourselves, who uses Rei, we want to be more objective about it. It's not a crazy investment to do. I think it's practically might be hard in the gym. I've never used one. But he was just like, actually, it doesn't seem to be panning out how we thought it might, it doesn't seem to be that objective. So it is hard. And I think it therefore relies more on that personal experience with failure on various lifts and various muscles where it might be slightly different. I'm sure you've had it, Philip, Where I know, I've had clients where they hit a grinder and I'm like, Okay, you're done. And then they get like three more. And I'm like, okay, so they knew they had more in the tank. So actually, I can't look at the video and tell them that RSR. And this is something I think so many people get messed up is because they think there's just this one, like, Hey, you hit three is that slow to one, zero, it should look like this every person under every circumstance, but it is simply it just doesn't look that way. And so I always say to clients, I I never can tell objectively what your area is, like, just say if I think you had more or less. And then sometimes they come back to me like Steve, you know, you're right. Or they might come back with a suit. There's no way and I'm like, Okay, we're test that maybe, and see how it goes. But yeah, then on the same kind of line of thought you have the grinders, but then you have that person who just whatever about them, if they're fast, which dominant. And so they just fatigue very quickly, they just suddenly hit a wall and you're like, Oh, I didn't know expect that to happen. And I actually really had this was very cool. I got to train at das gym in Vienna, which if you haven't heard of it, or you haven't seen it, Google it, anyone listening, it's one of the coolest gyms in the world. And we managed to go there is a team. So myself, Pascal, and Mike Chalice, they're all coaches on the team and we train together. And it's just funny, because we're all so different. And how will you respond to things? Like I think I'm fairly average in terms of my grindability. And what our ER looks like Mike, on the other hand, he can just keep going, you're like, he's been like grinding for like five reps, hear what's going on. And then I would say Pascal slightly towards the other end where he he fails a little bit quicker than I do. And it's like, we're all very similar age, very similar number of years of training, muscular development, isn't that different between us yet, our AR can look quite different. So I think it really has to come down to personal experience with this. And the better you use it just like any tool, the sharper it comes like, the better you are at using it. And I think you mentioned something really important here is like, how important is it? If you're progressing over time, like I'll put up a squat video. And I'll say, Hey, I thought this was like zero RL and some will, Mike, I have a bunch of comments. Now you had more than a tank Steve, like Come on, push harder. And like, as you don't mind, if I did or didn't, I knew I was very close. And I knew that was a PR based off previous performance. And so if I keep PR and I keep seeing new numbers, new strength numbers, I'm fairly confident whatever I'm doing is mean those thresholds, that it's hard enough, and it's progressive enough. And I know I don't have to train, even to zero or one or, like, I don't have to train that hard, I can probably make up for a few of the volume. Now I don't want to. And I'm very confident in my area assessments. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Because maybe I met hard and sufficiently overloading through a different variable I pulled on that volume lever a bit more. Whatever has happening. If I'm progressively overloading I know something good is happening. Yeah, yeah. And

Philip Pape 24:07

the converse of that is fatigue, right? Where if you were going to zero are constantly, it could have a negative long term impact on your ability to come back and the gym and hit that again, which is important, especially as we get older and recovery and joint issues start to become an issue or whatnot. Maybe we can get into that. One other thing comes to mind, I think you alluded to it was kind of in the lower rep regime, maybe testing one RMS or, I don't know using ascending sets or something like that to find your RPE like Do you have a favored one or two?

Steve Hall 24:47

Yeah, so normally I get it, get there through an accumulation. So I normally am like, hey, let's start out hard week one where you think you're anywhere from one to three reoriented to try and be a bit closer to three on those big compound heavy lifts, try and be closer to one on like an isolation base lift where it should have at cost, like you said, it's just much lower, whereas going to 01 RA on like a leg press week one or x, well, it's quite fatiguing, it might not be worth the trade off. And so you can get a better stimulus to fatigue trade off saying a bit further from failure, then next week, I want you to match or beat it and keep going match your beating, maintaining good technique, like you had in week one until you can't and then you have that objective number. And if you found that like your week, one numbers to your however long you're able to go for, say you were able to go for eight weeks, and you managed to add a lot of reps and load, you went to easy week one, but maybe you didn't Maybe it worked out like like, oh, I managed to add sort of 10% to my lift and match reps the whole way through it was five, six weeks. Sounds like you're a pretty spot on. So you quickly learn via that kind of just accumulation of going there. Other options would be and I think you kind of alluded to this, maybe take the last set to failure, it kind of then indicate where everything else was. And it's a quicker feedback tool than necessarily going weeks and weeks and weeks without going there. I with my clients will get formed videos week one. So I'm very making sure like, are they training hard enough in that week, because if they've leaving loads of reps in the tank, there's a real issue that can happen there is that they are not going to be generating that much stimulus, they might not meet that threshold. And they will feel very recovered because they're not training that hard. And suddenly, they want to add loads of volume. But if you add loads of quantity of work, the quality inherently goes down. And that can be a real issue, especially when you're already training maybe too far from failure. Now, it's hard to train harder, because you've got so much other things to be doing. So I'm very careful about making sure hey, we've definitely trade hard enough that first week because otherwise you can get into this kind of volume trap, I would call it which I've definitely been in by the way, which is why I kind of feel it. And I've worked with a lot of clients who have been there to where they're doing way more volume than necessarily need to because the quality wasn't there in week one.

Philip Pape 27:06

Yeah, I imagine you're asking them to self report on our IR RP or something that kind of comparing, like, maybe not right? You said you're a nine, maybe it's a seven, maybe it's a six. And the accumulation approach is is really smart. Because even when we get more experience, you're gonna cycle through and you're gonna introduce new movements at a certain point and you kind of get that minor reset of, okay, where should I be, you know, on these movements, I last did it you know, three months ago. So it's kind of a good approach. It's also in line with the idea that we shouldn't be going to the gym and just randomly doing whatever every day we need to progress on something so that we get past, you know, the neuromuscular aspect, as well as the self puristic kind of learning aspect. Other important principles.

27:50

Hi, my name is Alan. And I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Whitson weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and wellbeing. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Philip works tirelessly, and with dedication to provide coaching support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research. And Phillip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition, Phillip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, PhilPapers, the real deal, he knows how to assess and direct nutrition. And he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, Phil.

Philip Pape 28:42

So let's get into a little bit of some of the underlying principles. Besides you mentioned, proximity failure mentioned progressive overload. And you mentioned minimum effective volume. Let's talk about the training variables. So we've got volume intensity frequency, you mentioned, you know, five to 30 reps could work. Now we're talking muscle growth hypertrophy, maybe not so much Max force production and powerlifting type training. But there are some camps like intensity versus frequency camps. What are your thoughts on all of that? Because I especially let's start with intensity. Let's start with load. Like, is there a time when someone should focus on the lower rep range? And why?

Steve Hall 29:24

Yeah, it's a good question. I can't say that there's any data suggesting that you need to focus on like a given rep range, and somehow that's going to lead to better growth in future, I wouldn't be against rep range being somewhat preference driven. Because of the fact that we don't have any, like, no real reason to say if you push that set close enough to failure, you're gonna grow just as well as different rep range. Again, we don't have long term data of using those higher rep ranges. But I think bodybuilders like have been doing this for so long, where they've been using such a wide swath of rep ranges, where it's kind of Like the anecdotal evidence, which is super weak, like it's not great evidence to draw upon, but it's kind of helped by the fact it's been done for so long. And it's actually like you mentioned with the camps, you have like your mike mentor, you have your Dorian Yates but then you have like your Arnold Schwarzenegger, your Jay Cutler, these guys who your Phil Heath, like, they had very different methods of how they trained. But I bet one not I bet, you know, all of them, did, they train hard. And if they met their overload thresholds, whether or not they pulled more on one lever versus another, it does seem to be that way a little bit, where there are things that you can do to generate a stimulus within the gym. Inherently, when you generate a stimulus in the gym, fatigue comes along with it, it has to, but if you so I don't know if there's always proportional fatigue. So for example, like a hack squat, one set of that produces you 10, stimulus, 10 fatigue, by leg extension, maybe produces, you know, five, so you have to do more volume on that leg extension to get the same from the hack squat. But it's like, you can both get to the same destination, like neither your SFR overall was the same. I don't know if that's the same for say, Hey, you train close to failure, you do less volume, to kind of get to the same destination as someone else who trades further from failure, and does more volume to get to the same destination, I can see an argument for that, especially if you keep them within these kind of, like you said, those parameters that it's like, Hey, pick your poison, any road to Rome, you're gonna eventually get there. Now, my kind of scientific and analytical mindset, likes to think and coaching mindset likes to think there's an optimal route somewhat, and it might be individual dependent, to some extent. And I do think it can morph and change over time, because I think fatigue dynamics do to, like out of a D load, when you're essentially the freshest you can be your stimulus to fatigue ratio, and how to get the best of that might be different to four weeks into the program. When you've adapted and you've accumulated fatigue, I can't say for sure that these are kind of some theories that I have in mind. So I generally, I don't know if this answers your question, but for my clients, what I like to do programming wise, is assuming they're coming in fresh that first week, we're at least meeting those minimum thresholds for growth, as I suggested, so I generally start people on those kind of isolation base lifts, higher rep ranges, lower fatigue cost lifts, two to one, Ari are not take them nicely close to failure, you're bigger compound lifts, maybe there are three to two, like a leg press more to three, like a lat pulldown, and then overall, maybe you got closer to two. And you could also individualize that on like, how, what's the volume tolerance of that muscle, if they're very volume tolerant muscle, and you don't want to have to do so much volume together, stimulus, pull boron intensity. So that's something I do for like ABS carves, I'm just like, hey, train those very close to failure, because not many people want to do a ton of sets of those, and they're very, very volume tolerant, raise your quads, most people's quads can't handle that much volume, so and they get fatigued very easily. So we pull back on the, on the intensity lever and put more onto the volume, because it's not that much anyway. So regardless, I meet that kind of minimum threshold week one, and then I'm just monitoring their performance, their feedback, and trying to get to to a point where I call it like maximum adaptive stimulus, Mike is retail obviously use the terms mineral effects volume, maximum adaptive volume, and maximum recoverable volume. I like to rephrase it into stimulus, because I think that encompasses more of training, because there's a lot of things that contribute to stimulus like intensity, volume, exercise, selection, rest times, maybe frequency, there's a lot of things that go into it. So I like to get someone to this point where I'm like, Hey, you're running an amount of volume, and amount of intensity that's really challenging you, you feel like you end every session where you're not completely destroyed. But you're like, Damn, that was a really good workout. And you kind of try and match and beat performance in that position progressively overload for as long as you can, until fatigue catches up to you. So for a lot of my intermediate to advanced trainees, that's anywhere from five weeks, up to like 10 weeks, depending on the person, their lifestyle, if they sleep really well, they eat super well, they're in a surplus, maybe less advanced, maybe they're closer to 10 weeks. Whereas for that more advanced person in a diet, they're sleeping poorly, they have lots of stress, that fatigue is catching up to them sooner, then back off and go again. So I'm just careful not to push too hard in any one direction and try and kind of find this theoretical sweet spot between volume and intensity. Because when we look at the literature, it's like, it's quite funny because we had the meta regression from Zack Robinson that came out where for the listeners like a meta regression, looked at lots of the studies, and then like, compared where on average is the best outcomes, and he was looking at our AR and muscle growth. And it seemed like there was this exponential exponential relationship between training closer to failure, the more muscle growth you got. So three to one, zero and to failure. There's exponential muscle growth. So People like well answered our question like surely best outcomes, trends failure all the time. But the studies that were looked at were frequencies of mostly two times a week. And volumes very low, not typical to what we would do. And then we have the other body of research, where the recommendations from the meta analyses that they've been doing, which is very similar to meta regression, I can't speak to the nuance differences between the two, I just know those terms. But again, a whole host of studies, and they find up between like 10 to 20, I think it's like 12 to 20 to the latest systematic review found. So that's quite high volume versus the what was found within the meta regression. It's like, Ah, how do we piece those together? And we're still trying to like unfoldings, and work through that puzzle. And I think, Martin Cephalo, who I know you're, you're aware of who I've interviewed a few times on a podcast, he's doing his PhD, literally in this subject of like, proximity to failure and muscle growth outcomes. ABC had like the the best study that's ever been done on this subject, where I think a lot of people thought the studies that had come out, but it looked at proximities to failure, were like, they were in the gym and doing Rei, just like we would, but most of them weren't, they'll just either not failure or failure. Or they're using velocity. And we're trying to estimate based off that, whereas his was the first study to actually have subjects who were very good at calling our ers in a gym, tutorial, one REO versus failure. And so he had subjects go through the same protocol, one leg doing one or the other leg doing the other protocol, what was the difference, and like there was there was basically no difference. In the end, there was some nuance differences, which were cool. But yet, it's still that that's I think study is just a great framework for other people coming up through the field to look and be like, Oh, maybe we can replicate that. But through different means, and have a different protocol to try and kind of work this out a little bit. But I am to not get too stuck in the weeds. And I think a lot of people like science man, it's so confusing. Like one time, it's saying this, the other thing saying this, like screw science, and I'm just like, I like to boil it down to, to maximize muscle growth, you basically want to train as hard as you can, for as long as you can, as often as you can do, there's a lot of ways to get to that kind of situation. And I can't tell you what the optimal route is. But so long as you know, you're working your muscles hard in the gym, often, you're making sure to most of the time recover, when you aren't recovering you back off, and then you go in again, and you're progressing over time, you're probably in a damn good job. And I think that's why there's so many jacked bodybuilders in the world who weren't aware of the scientific terms and things like this and their different approaches because I didn't fit their personality or their their own N equals one study, and they just found man, this worked for me, why would I do something different? The struggle is you can't copy a mike mentor and expect to respond the same way. You can't say, oh, look, Dorian did this. So everyone should be doing this. Because that's the beauty of science, you actually get a swath of people, you get them on isolated conditions. And then you actually get to report like averages and get a better idea of what the general population should be doing. And science will never give us the perfect prescription. I think a lot of people hope it will. But it gives you those guidelines, which we've spoken about a few times. So I don't know if I asked that question again. I kind of forgot what it was.

Philip Pape 38:18

This is why I brought you on man, I love the way you answered. And if anybody who doesn't like and listen to the show, they can unfollow and you know, we self self select our audience, but man, the I'm a perfectionist, right? Like in certain ways in that I used to, especially when I got into this world, I'd want to know the exact answer. And then I would do that right. And of course, you would glom on to certain experts, or people who are in that camp, and then you, you know, to the exclusion of everything else. And like you suggested, there's such a wide window. And if we just try to pick out certain studies, and then the latest and greatest that gets pushed on, you know, Instagram or whatever, we're just going to be bouncing around, I think, and it's maybe a better approach to just pick the things that, like you said, are preference driven. And to some extent, I mean, I've gone through cycles of programming with my coach, where I might be doing like an 852 rep cycle. And I'm like, I don't like the eight, let's do the 531. And it's like, you get the same result. It's just a little bit different rep scheme that I enjoy more, right. And that's part of consistency. And then like you said, everybody has different levels of fatigue, that can build up. So it's not, it's not in a vacuum, like the study that that showed, you should always train to failure, right? You're not just doing it once you're doing it over and over and over again. And then I'll tell you that certain parts of my body and others know like their low back or whatever, where the fatigue just, you get to the point where you almost dread doing a certain movement because of it. That's maybe your body telling you something. Either you need to eat more sleep or change it up whatever. One thing I did want to ask you about is when you program for clients, and you get past those first, the first week or two, do you program their loads, or do you continue to program our IR so

Steve Hall 39:53

what the way I prescribe it is that week one, that's the only week I really get them to focus on reps reserve after that, like it's in a good place, you don't need to worry about it anymore, match and be. Now, more my more advanced clients, I do want them to have a little bit of semblance of understanding of it, because if they're already like zero on, say something very fatiguing, and it's like or week two, then I'm like a match for like more so much performance because you're going to run out of runway or progression over time otherwise. But generally, I don't like people to worry about it too much. Have an idea that you're in a zone that you want to be in. Obviously, if you're hitting failure week to like, you probably shot your load alert too soon, or you've had a bad night's sleep or, you know, you've had an argument with someone and your fatigue is just shot through the roof, and then we can regulate that as we move forward. But yeah, past that point, I actually don't like too much focus on the reps or reserve, just knowing that they're within that range is is good enough for me. I don't need to know that they've hit a bull's eye. I just need to know they're on the dartboard. That's kind of the way I think about that.

Philip Pape 40:56

Yeah, I like that approach too. Because I think a perpetual focus on just RPE like maybe gives too much subjectivity there versus Hey, you've got a baseline, why don't we build off that baseline and know for a fact that you're exceeding it going forward? You also mentioned maximum recoverable stimulus as opposed to fatigue I like that concept to recently spoke to was it might have been Jordan Lipsyte or somebody who was talking about, like, the vast majority of people fatigue isn't so much the issue is they're not training hard enough. And I think it goes back to this discussion. Like, if you get to the point where fatigue is an issue, maybe that's telling you, maybe you've been training hard enough, and now we got to learn how to manage it. But there are a lot of I see it all the time, you know, especially beginners who are like, there's zero fatigue, that could be an indication you're not training harder, you know what I mean? That it's kind of they play off each other. So it's great that you're focusing on the let's get the stimulus as high as we can and then start to balance things out. Yeah, go ahead.

Steve Hall 41:51

Yeah, I was just gonna say, I think it's very true. I think when you look, your average person in the gym, I look at the average person in my gym, and I'm like, Man, people must look at me like I'm a bit of a weirdo, because, like, I make noises, like really challenging myself. And like, I've my sleeve like a bit of a crazy man. Because most people in the gym just aren't pushing themselves to that point of discomfort. Actually, that's part of it, too. It should feel like uncomfortable when you're getting into like it in a positive way. It's kind of hard. It obviously shouldn't be injury provoking. But the muscle should feel challenged, and it should feel uncomfortable in that muscle to some extent, then that's like an element of you know, you're going hard enough. But yeah, a lot of people will just go through the motions. And that's where that inbuilt progressive overload where I'm like, match or beat, match or beat natural beat. Because if you aren't doing that, you can definitely spin your wheels. If you don't log book and have data to pull up on, like you said, if you're changing movements all the time, you're relearning everything. I mean, you could be training hard enough and you could be progressing. You certainly can't be certain of it, especially as naturals we grow so slowly, we can't like reliably be like, oh, yeah, look bigger in the mirror. You probably really can't use that as a metric unless maybe in the first few months of training. I know you actually asked the question. I don't know if you want me to revisit it. rep ranges. He said, any time to do low reps versus high reps and differentiating between those. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I just felt like because you asked that question, like the audience probably

Philip Pape 43:15

notes here, man. We could talk for four hours. So it's really

Steve Hall 43:20

short. So just one thing practically, with rep ranges, something I like to think about is just some lifts are more suitable to certain rep ranges is just part of matter of fact, like a hack squat, plus 15 reps. It's not super practical, any sort of squat pattern above 50 reps, it tends to become quite a cardiovascular challenge. Whereas leg extensions, they're very suitable for like 10 Plus reps, 15 plus reps into that 20 plus rep range, below 10 reps on a lay extension, it just starts to become a challenge to stand the sea and you just feel it in your joints and like your knees and things, it just isn't very practical. So quite a lot of the time rep ranges can kind of sort themselves out via what's actually practical for this lift for that person, like a lat pulldown, again, doing less than 10 reps or a lat pulldown, it's hard to stand the seat and have stability because if you're any kind of strong, you know, so even like I've done it in like the 10 to 12 rep range and I'm like this is hard for me to stay down I'll do a single arm, maybe I can do it then where's the pull up perfect in that rep range, because it's already challenging to go much higher than that. Anyway, and so yeah, kind of rep ranges to some extent I think can be within ranges can be self selected via what's practical for the person to be able to do Yeah,

Philip Pape 44:35

yeah, totally. And it's again individual right, like some people may thrive on you know, doing sets of 10 or 12 squats and others are like This is torture. You know, I'm great with five so yeah, my adductors are starting to give or some weird muscle starts to pop, you know. So is it okay, so speaking of reps or rain, actually range of motion is what I was thinking of next, because partial reps and lengthen. partials have been all the rage lately as well. What are your thoughts on that? Both in the context of like intensity techniques and kind of add on work versus like your primary type of training?

Steve Hall 45:13

Yeah, I think it's, it's really, that's probably been the most exciting area of research because nothing too much else has changed. This is the thing where it's like, everyone's just like full ROM, right? Like, that's the thing, everyone should be training full ROM. And, again, the bodybuilders haven't been doing that they've been doing partials for quite a long time. And they certainly didn't have in controlling all their lifts. Either you're looking at some barbell bent over rows, or you're like on his cable rows, like he would just swing that thing back to get it short, you know. And so it's very interesting seeing that, and then see the research come out to look at these things. And in the past, I think forum was the thing that was promoted in, in the past meta analyses, as well as the conclusion of forums the way to go. Because the partial research look to short muscle answers virtually all the time. I don't think there really any long muscle and versus fall versus short. But when they do start looking at the long muscle and training versus full run, it seems that the long muscle length training seems to do pretty well. And I think I'm not the expert on this. Milo Wolff would be the guy who knows this. Because this is where his PhD has been. He did the letter latest meta analyses. And I think there's over five studies now that have come out that have compared like long muscle lengths to either forearm or some other muscle length among muscle lengths, they're even neutral to positive. So haven't seen an outcome where people have grown worse from focusing on that long stretch position. Do we know the mechanism yet? No. People will debate this is it stretch mediated hypertrophy done or added sarcomeres? We just we don't know what the mechanism is yet. For me, I don't particularly care unless it has practical implications. Because, yeah, I mean, I like the science, I get into the weeds. But I'm a coach. I'm a practitioner, and I'm a bodybuilder, I want to know what's growing my muscles. And I want to know how I can make my clients grow more muscle. So it does appear that spending a little bit more time focusing on that length and position is a good idea. So there's many layers to this. So you could take it as far as hey, I'm going to make the only modification I'm going to make by training is I'm going to buy a more long muscle and training. So I'm going to do maybe less leg extensions. And I'm going to do more squats, and sissy squats and reverse Nordics. And I'm going to do less spider curls. And I'm going to do more like Bayesian curls where the cables behind me and I'm getting a stretch in this length and position on my bicep, and that'd be cool. That's definitely one way you could take the research and I'm definitely going to do forearm, I'm going to squat deep, I'm gonna get a big stretch on my lats when I'm coming up for a pull down or a pull up. Then you mentioned other ways you can incorporate and there's a number of ways. So as we mentioned, lat pull downs before, because of the kind of opposite resistance to strength profile of that, you could fail with many reps, where you could have got partials, so you could extend your set. Once I can't get to my chest, I'm gonna go and just get as low as I can as low as I can of low as I can until maybe I aligned, you could call it, hey, I'm gonna keep doing my kind of forearm is arranged now for me on that pull downs. It's from like, clavicle to eyes. Once I can't get to my eyes, hey, I'm done. Because I think there has to be some sort of heuristic or standardization of where is your color? Otherwise, you're gonna be like, Hey, I'm getting a centimeter length. And maybe this is growing. And actually, at the moment, we don't know how. So a lot of the researchers looked at about a 50% range of motion, so they just cut off the last 50%. So you're not coming, like from it's coming to about eyeline for like a lat pulldown saying you're not doing all the way down the laptop and actually specifically been looked at. And that's some limitations within the research. They've looked at the curves a lot, which has been pretty cool. I've done a lot of Lendon partials for my cars, because the the research that's come out is pretty convincing, that we tend to grow more in that stretch position. So I've like, not been doing that last little like up off the calf raise. And so that's been quite fun. And I think they've grown and responded quite well to that considering how stubborn calves can be. I've been quite impressed by

Philip Pape 49:11

the progress. What's your favorite movement to do that?

Steve Hall 49:14

Good question. So I don't like bent knee variants generally, I don't think they make the most sense. Are they tend to bias the bias in the soleus? Because of like the CD? Yeah, yeah. So the soleus is not the chunk of the muscle, the gastroc is like the chunk that's visually aesthetic, and the soleus just sits behind. So I'm like, why would I want a thicker soleus? That might look a bit I already have like thick ankles, like why do I want to like it just a thick muscle there. So the straight leg variants hit both pretty well and they bias the gastroc a little bit more. The gastroc gets the most of the brunt of the work. So I like straight leg variants. And honestly, people should experiment I think to find what suits them. Some people recommend doing in like a leg press because then you don't axial loading which I think gives a cool idea, like it's not loading the spine, so theoretically less fatiguing. But I have this one machine, actually too, but there's one in my gym, that doesn't load the spine. And it's just I think it's normally like a V squat or something like that. I don't use it for that purpose. I just do calf raises in it. And it just hits me like nothing else. I know because I train other gyms and I tried to like, I did like a smith machine calf raise in a gym and I was like, I'm just not getting that stimulus I can get from at home, however, like that machines set up with the load and with the footplate, it just hits them perfectly. So I do think, experimented a little bit with straight leg variants as your primary if you want to do some bend nice stuff. Hey, how about it, I'm not going to stop someone. But I think the straight leg variant is probably the route to best growth, especially for like aesthetic carves. Yeah.

Philip Pape 50:45

And you just mentioned like, you know, let's see how you feel and try different movements. I mean, I think for me, the pitch shark, which I don't have one, but you can kind of rig up a similar idea of like a belt squat seemed to work for the calves. You know, I was just doing squats one day, and I said, let me just add some calves in here. Like, whoa, you know, gotta burn so yeah, yeah, calves are chicken when, especially when you have a home gym to try to rig things up just the right way to get it to work.

Steve Hall 51:09

Yeah, yeah, when I was, that throws me back to when we had the lock downs and all of that. And I was just doing stair carbs or like off like a stair. I was just doing single leg calves. I was using my dipping belt to like, way down harder and everything and mad. Yeah, the reps just got a little bit too, like high on that. And I ended up feeling a lot of my Achilles tendon, which is unfortunate that can happen with calf training quite a lot. Yeah.

Philip Pape 51:34

Cool, man. So all right, that we talked about the lengthen partials. Yeah, I know that's getting a lot of play now. So I like the idea of doing movements full ROM that just happened to have a lengthened and extended lengthened position. kind of took me back to the days of like, the 777 with the bar with the dumbbell curls, which, you know, you were trying to get the different ranges go in there. What about ones? Yeah, you know, or 20 ones? Yeah, right. Right. Exactly. Right. As far as all the so we've mentioned individual response. You've mentioned heuristics and like applying research to training hard. We've also talked about not like over relying on too many of these studies, I guess, I don't know if we missed anything in terms of somebody who wants to keep pushing it and train hard and get feedback from themselves later on. So you talked about the ascension and the fatigue and all that. Is there something people should be tracking specifically? Obviously, their lifts, but any other biofeedback, anything, even nutrition wise, or kind of correlating data that would tell them that they're training hard or not training hard enough or need to change up the programming?

Steve Hall 52:40

Yeah, it's a great question. I think there is divergent views on this in the evidence based space, because it's not something that's been researched very well, in terms of this biofeedback. But I think everyone can relate to the biofeedback that we'll discuss. And I think I see value in tracking some of these variants, because part of me is like, hey, there are at all and we don't have anything better to go off. Actually, in a funny way. I view them similar to a diet, and we're trying to lose weight, we tracked the scale, and someone is tracking their macros and what have you, they're trying to hit certain calorie protein fat carb goal. Some heuristics you might also track alongside is like, Hey, how's your app? Like, how's your hunger? How's your like irritability? Like how's hanger? Basically? Do we just ignore all of that? Or that can those be useful feedback tools, because hunger doesn't actually matter for fat loss? Well, not really. Like if you boil it down to calorie deficit, but someone might not adhere to the diet, they might binge, it might give you some feedback of hey, they're hungry today. So or this week, they said they're hungry, or look at their food plan. Or maybe we can put some boiled potatoes in a secret weapon, they stuff everyone, right? You're having too many Coco Pops have some more oats, these are the things that are going to satiate you more. Whereas if you ignored hunger feedback from a client, suddenly they're binging on the weekend, because I coach them and I can't stick these calories, it's way too hard. Whereas if you had that feedback, you can now make an appropriate adjustment to one of their meals and similar here to some of this biofeedback or make it make sense. So like the pump is something that everyone knows about, and it's heard about, you think about a balloon filling up and again to burst some muscles really get a very good pump, or they respond better to the pump than others. For me, like my quads, some of my quad pumps are just horrendous. I'm like, wow, like, This is the craziest thing ever. Calves my carbs would never get a pump until I started actually introducing Moreland and partial work, really pushing the relative intensity closer to failure as are now something's happening. And so the pump tends to correlate with some positive things. I think, whether or not that even could be Hey, Coach, I'm not getting a pump in my quads off to lay extensions. You look at them doing leg extensions, they're just flinging the weight around. They're not bringing it down deep. You're like, hey, control the eccentric, bring it down as deep as you can, like, do all of these things. And you'll get the feedback that either the pumps better, or it could just be like a foot placement difference on a leg press, hey, when I have my feet here, nothing too much here all. And obviously part of the pump is blood flow, I think blood flow go into muscles are a good idea, if you're getting a pump that muscles clearly working. So as a feedback tool, as a coach and practitioner, I find that feedback really helpful. And then some other indicators be like soreness is something you can can pay attention to. Now, and regarding the pump, the reason I say like it's divergent views is because we just don't have evidence either way, there's not really strong evidence suggesting you can use the pump is like, and then it even indicates cell swelling. And we don't know if that is a mechanism for growth. And the same for like whether or not it does. So there's some like interesting, it's an area that we need more research and study on basically. But obviously, bring it back to anecdote again, how many bodybuilders tip pay attention to the pump, I think virtually all. So as a coach, it's been useful for me and with my own training. And then soreness is another key thing that you can look at. Actually, before soreness, I'll come on to another element that I named stimulus. So it's something I get my clients to track within their spreadsheets. In fact, I used to have pump and disruption. So pump is as I described, disruption is more so the muscle feeling tight, lots of local fatigue. And maybe it's like quivering if you've ever done like leg curls, and many sets and then you come off, you're like my hamstrings feel like they're going to cramp like it's, it's kind of that disruptive feeling. Hamstrings don't really feel pumped and full, they kind of feel tight and heavy. Same with like the back muscles like this. So I kind of named that disruption, like, I now combine the two. So I kind of combined them as as pumping disruption rather than having my clients have to fill out all these different things. So how's the stimulus, think of pumping disruption is it's like nothing low, minimal high. And that gives me some useful feedback. And then the other thing I get them to think about is soreness. But I only get it if it's more after the session than than expected. So I don't particularly care if someone gets sore or not. In terms of dope growing, I don't think soreness you, I don't think you have to get sore to be growing, we have data, we don't have data to suggest that it's necessary. And in fact, it could be harmful. The thing I like about soreness is it tells me how far someone's recovering. And it also, sometimes you might finish training a muscle in a session and think not much happened. But the next day, suddenly you get sore that sometimes can happen. So I like it to kind of come in as like an afterthought. Did you get sore than you expected? If you did, okay, then your stimulus was more than you thought you were getting. So it can be useful there. And then how fast that muscle recovering you recovering way ahead of a session, or you're recovering just on time, or you actually saw when you're looking to train that muscle again. And that allows me to know about how are they dealing with the level of volume they've got through the week? How are they dealing with their frequency that they've got right now? Do I need to make a modification there? It might be that hey, my side delts are feeling recovered, like way ahead of time, they're doing two times a week, I'm okay, maybe we can go three times a week. And we can get more growth or maybe again, they're sore and overlapping. We need to back off on volume here. So that we're not creating such an amount of damage, muscle damage and stimulus that you're now that's excess fatigue, essentially, that's now leading to worse performance worse outcome. So there's some of yeah, like I said, stimulus pump disruption. And then soreness is something I like and then it says using soreness is also like a readiness tool. Are you feeling sore or not leading into a training session? There's some of the biofeedback measures that I think can be really valuable, like little toolkits, that similar to like hunger and appetite during a diet phase. Like they're not objective things that you use to program with, but they can give you little insights into small adjustments you could make to make things even better. Yeah,

Philip Pape 58:50

yeah, no, I love those. That was one of the best explanations of those that I've heard, because I know a lot of people disparage these sometimes, because like you said, you know, you don't need to be sore on the pump isn't necessarily an indicator of this or that. But it is almost objective. I know it's subjective, but just like biofeedback, hunger and whatnot, it may be subjective. In the moment, the trend over time tells you something because it's your body and you're listening to it, and in tune with it. And the idea that the soreness tells you your individual volume response, not only systemically but per muscle group. I think it's great for individuals, you know, who are listening, who even want to do that themselves, just start marking that in their training log, and really toning in on the different muscle groups and where you can add more volume and takeaway volume. So super practical, man. All right. So we're kind of we're at the top of the hour again here. So I'm going to go to that magic question. Because we talked about a lot today, but is there anything you wish I had asked and what is your answer? Yeah,

Steve Hall 59:45

great question. And I appreciate that. You thought that answer was a good one. It's always nice to hear so yeah, actually, he told me this question was coming and I'm still like, I should have saved something in my back pocket that I wish you'd asked about it I wonder some people just like no, you asked all good questions. And honestly, you did ask good questions. Yeah, I can't necessarily think of anything in particular that we haven't covered. I wanted to cover I just think if people ever feel like lost and confused with these things, definitely put it back to the principles, especially when they get lost into program design, if they just put it back to Okay, so specificity, overload, progressive overload, and what I need to achieve in my program, and then don't overthink it, don't try make the perfect most optimal program possible, because we can't possibly know what that is, get something together, productive, do you feel like is hard and you're progressing over time, then little tweaks. And that's all we're doing with our clients. It's like, we're making our kind of best guess, which is a pretty good guess, right? Because we're educated coaches who kind of work with a lot of people and have a good amount of experience, we make our best guess at first. And then I'm getting all this feedback, objective and subjective, to make the best cause to lead to the best responses for them, and learn your body over time and is a constant learning process. I've been doing this for like, I've been trading personally for over 15 years. And I always feel like I'm learning something. Like I said, for my calves, they've probably grown the most they have over the last year versus like, 10 years before that, because I just simply wasn't training them as effectively as I could have. You learn things all the time. So yeah, never stop learning. Man, you took

Philip Pape 1:01:19

it right back to the whole foundation of this discussion of personal growth and always getting stronger. And I love that going back to principles. Don't overthink it, especially as perfectionists out there. Don't overthink it. Train hard match or beat, collect feedback and tweak and you'll be fine. So awesome. All right. Where can listeners learn more about you, Steve? For

Steve Hall 1:01:38

sure. Yeah, thank you again for having me, Philip. It's been a really fun chat. People can find me at revive stronger. So revived stronger.com is our website, you'll be able to find our coaching. The podcasts will be linked there too. I'm also most active on Instagram as just the social media platform I enjoy the most at revive stronger over there. And you can find like, if you like podcasts, definitely check out the revived stronger podcast where I get to interview really smart individuals. And we also have the improvement season podcast which is a separate podcast that I do with Pascal, my business partner and coach on the team where it's a much more chitchat podcast, still somewhat bodybuilding related, we talk about our journeys, but yeah, we got off piste quite a bit on that,

Philip Pape 1:02:19

ya know, for sure, man, and I love it. I can't have enough of these in my feed, but then you got to figure out what to listen to. So revive stronger.com and iG at revive stronger and also the improvement season podcast. I'll throw that in. It's been a lot of fun. We covered a lot of topics, but I think it's all practical stuff people need to hear and want to hear. So thanks. Thanks again for coming on, Steve.

Steve Hall 1:02:38

Thank you for having me.

Philip Pape 1:02:41

Philip Pape 3/26/24 Philip Pape 3/26/24

Ep 158: The Science of Hunger and 9 Hacks to Outsmart Your Appetite (Especially in Fat Loss!)

Why does hunger strike when you're cutting calories? Do you want to know the best way to curb hunger during fat loss? In this episode, Philip dives into the fascinating world of hunger, the science behind it, and how it affects your fat loss journey. He talks about the hunger hormones — leptin and ghrelin and how stress and cortisol can make you crave that extra snack. He shares nine practical strategies to help you stay on track and how protein, spices, and water play an important role in these real-life hacks.

Why does hunger strike when you're cutting calories? Do you want to know the best way to curb hunger during fat loss?

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) dives into the fascinating world of hunger, the science behind it, and how it affects your fat loss journey. He talks about the hunger hormones — leptin and ghrelin and how stress and cortisol can make you crave that extra snack. He shares nine practical strategies to help you stay on track and how protein, spices, and water play an important role in these real-life hacks.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:51 Hunger during a calorie deficit
4:45 The science of hunger
7:46 Cortisol's role in hunger and appetite
10:55 Managing hunger with quality of sleep
12:34 Influence of the senses on hunger
19:22 Nine hunger hacks
35:40 Outro

Episode resources:

Download Your FREE Hunger Hacks Guide

Episode summary:

When it comes to weight management, understanding the mechanisms behind hunger is pivotal for both short-term success and long-term sustainability. This episode takes a deep dive into the science of hunger and provides listeners with actionable strategies to navigate the complexities of appetite during a weight loss journey.

Hunger is not just a signal of an empty stomach; it's a complex interplay of hormones, psychological factors, and physiological needs. Leptin and ghrelin, known as the hunger hormones, play crucial roles in signaling satiety and hunger, respectively. When we're in a calorie deficit, leptin levels decrease, and ghrelin levels increase, leading to increased hunger. This hormonal dance is our body's way of trying to maintain homeostasis and can be quite challenging to manage when trying to shed pounds.

Chronic feelings of hunger could indicate a metabolic suppression, where the body maintains weight in a low-energy state, which is not ideal for long-term health. Philip points out that managing chronic stress is essential in this equation, as elevated cortisol levels can lead to overeating and weight gain. Stress management techniques, therefore, become critical components of a successful diet strategy.

Sleep is another unsung hero in the battle against the bulge. Sleep deprivation can disrupt the hormonal balance and increase the production of ghrelin while decreasing leptin, leading to enhanced appetite and cravings. Good sleep hygiene is, thus, not just beneficial for cognitive and physical health but is also a powerful tool in the fight against fat.

One of the most engaging parts of the episode is Philip’s personal top nine hunger hacks, a selection from his larger list of twenty. These strategies are designed to be high-impact yet low-effort, integrating seamlessly into one's lifestyle. For instance, he suggests prioritizing protein intake, which is known for its satiety-inducing effects, and aiming for daily fiber targets to aid in fullness. Additionally, he discusses the benefits of constructing nutrient-dense meals, such as the "big ass salad," which combines protein, fiber, and hydration to create a satiating and enjoyable eating experience.

Moreover, Philip highlights the importance of hydration in staving off hunger, suggesting water and low-calorie drinks as allies in the journey toward fat loss. He also touches on the psychological components of hunger, acknowledging that hunger during dieting can be both a physical and mental challenge.

In conclusion, the episode provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the hunger equation and offers practical, science-backed strategies to conquer cravings and enjoy a pleasurable slimming process. Philip’s expertise shines through as he blends scientific knowledge with relatable advice, making this episode a must-listen for anyone interested in effective weight management.

For those looking to delve further into these topics and adopt these strategies, the full episode offers a wealth of information and inspiration. As the episode underscores, mastering hunger is about more than just willpower; it's about strategy, understanding, and enjoyment—key ingredients for a successful and sustainable weight loss journey.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

Have you ever struggled with feeling deprived, constantly hungry or even hangry while trying to lose fat? Today, we are uncovering the science behind increased hunger during a calorie deficit and nine game changing, but as always practical strategies for keeping those cravings at bay so you can stay consistent. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Wits &

Philip Pape 00:47

Weights community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. In our last episode 157 Bill Campbell on aggressive dieting, dirty bulking and keto effects on muscle building. Dr. Campbell was back on to revisit the latest in rapid fat loss, including our findings from the Wits & Weights shred Tober challenge from 2023 that followed a protocol inspired by his research, we discussed progressive versus aggressive calorie deficits. When does optimal bulking become dirty bulking, the effects of a keto diet on muscle building and a new study that bill's Research Lab is currently planning today for Episode 158, the science of hunger and nine hacks to outsmart your appetite, especially in fat loss, you're going to learn about the science behind why we experience increased hunger when trying to lose weight. Plus, I'm going to share nine hacks or practical strategies to help manage cravings and adhere to your fat loss phase. So you don't get too hangry. A big shout out to Luke P in our Wits & Weights Facebook community for suggesting this topic because apparently it's been a while or maybe I've never done a full episode on managing hunger, even though I have both a hunger hacks guide, and a hunger scale and diary available for free to anyone who wants it. So if you want the hunger hacks guide, you can click the link in my show notes. Or if you want that one or the other guide, either way, you can go to wits & weights.com/free, and grab a copy for yourself. Hunger is obviously very important. It's probably one of the most important signals during fat loss that makes it difficult for people to adhere. And I do think it is a critical topic. And so today, I want to make it make sure it's comprehensive in terms of understanding why we get hungry, but also give you some tools to manage hunger there. There's a long list, I have a full list of 20 in my hunger hacks guide. And today I'm going to share a subset of those some of that some of my favorites. So let's get into today's episode, the science of hunger and nine hacks to outsmart your appetite, especially in fat loss. Now, if you've ever tried to lose weight, for the purposes of losing fat, you know that hunger can be one of the biggest challenges. It is the first thing that I noticed within a day or two when I go into a fat loss phase. And I hear the same thing from clients are like, well, everything else is fine. Nothing else has changed. But I'm all of a sudden getting hungry. And it's a very common reason why many people struggle to be consistent or stick with that diet. And then they ultimately fail to reach their goals. Just today I was doing a client check in and she was talking about how we have a fairly aggressive deficit. And she was talking about almost trying to white knuckle it through. And I said well, we need to take take step back. As soon as you get to the moment where the hunger becomes all consuming, or the focus of your attention, or becomes an impediment to you continuing with something has to change and that something might be changing the rate of loss, adding in some refeeds, things like that. Now, I'm not going to talk about those strategies. Today, I'm going to talk about things that you can do to mitigate or manage or even stop hunger, if it happens to be, for example, psychological hunger, or to simply reduce the amount of time that you get hungry, all of the things that just make it a little bit if not a lot easier to continue with a certain calorie deficit. But having said all that, the answer may be you're in too big of a debt calorie deficit. So I just wanted to bring that up early in this episode, in case you feel that hunger can be completely eliminated, which is impossible. Hunger is a sign your body is doing what you want it to do. So today we're going to dive into why we experienced hunger during a calorie deficit. Okay, I'm not going to talk about hunger during a calorie surplus. That also happens, believe it or not, but it's similar principles we're going to talk about mainly during the deficit. And I'm gonna give you some strategies to make it more successful, more sustainable, so that you have a better understanding of how to navigate all of this stuff. So let's talk about the science first. Now this is this piece I may not have included if it weren't for Luke's suggestion of hey, just explain a little bit behind why we get hungry what is really going on. And so I'm going to start with the hunger hormones, leptin and greyling probably heard of these, but if not, it's good to know them, good to become friends with them and manage them right and kind of make them your, well, we'll just leave it at that. All right, when we're in a calorie deficit, our bodies are in a state that is not natural. And so they naturally want to return to homeostasis, they want to get back to that state of balance. But as we lose fat, because we're trying to do that intentionally, and our fat cells shrink, and I did a whole episode about fat oxidation, mobilization, all that, like what happens with the fat a little while ago, our body releases less leptin. Okay, Leptin is a hormone that tells you your full, it's a satiety hormone says, Hey, you're full, as we're losing fat or fat cells shrink, it sends a signal to your body to release less of it can it does that through your brain. And at the same time, the opposite happens with the hunger hormone, ghrelin, it goes up, and it makes us feel hungry. And so this, the shift in these hormones, is one of many ways that our body says, Hey, eat more food, because I need to get back to energy balance. And this is why so many of you through years of dieting, even when you don't lose weight, your body's adapted, you still feel hungry all the time. One of the first questions I ask somebody on on my free calls, or even a new client is how often you feel hungry, like are you living in a perpetual state of hunger, because if they tell me, Look, I'm not losing weight, and I think I'm at maintenance calories, but I'm hungry all the time. That's a good indicator that you are not at maintenance calories, you are maintaining your weight, but you're doing so in an energy deficit, not a calorie deficit, but but in a low energy state. So in other words, you're not in a deficit, but you're below where you could be not being in a deficit, right, your metabolism is being suppressed, and then that would cause you to be hungry. So that's important to understand that the hunger right there right off the bat is telling you that you're in a low energy state of some kind. The next quick thing I want to mention is carbs. Before we get into some more of the detailed science of the hormones, when we are in a dieting phase, or in fat loss phase, where we're eating fewer carbs, just by definition, if you're doing it the right way, when the focus is body composition and preserving muscle, your protein is kept high, so your fats and carbs come down and your calories are fairly limited. When we're eating fewer carbs, it is just harder to recover from workouts, then the workouts feel more challenging. And this is because carbs are the body's preferred source of fuel, especially for high intensity exercise, which includes our lifting sessions, believe it or not. And so when CARB is low, we feel more fatigued, and we're less able to push ourselves in the gym. So I want to I want to mention that as well, because it's not hunger, per se, but it's part of the whole equation of being deprived of energy, okay, and it all kind of feeds on itself. One of the most important hormones besides the two hunger hormones is cortisol. We know many of you know cortisol as the stress hormone. And it does play a huge role in hunger and appetite. Because when we're under stress, and fat loss is a stressor, our bodies release cortisol. Guess what that does? Well, it increases feelings of hunger. It also increases cravings for energy, which we see as high calorie high palatable, in our in our world, in the Western world, processed foods, high carbon sugar, and fat type foods, right foods that wouldn't exist in nature, but we are amazing at making them with our science. And hey, they're delicious. I like a good doughnut ice cream or pizza here and there. But when you're in fat loss, and when the stress is higher, and now you've got emotions in the mix as well, especially if there's some emotional eating that you haven't dealt with yet. All of it comes together as a perfect storm of cortisol induced injury. All right. Now, this is thought to be an adaptation to stressful situations. Like if you think of our evolution, when there's a stressful situation, we want energy we want to restore again, it's coming back to homeostasis. So we're gonna go find the most nutrient dense thing we can. It's just all subconscious. And so in today's world, because we also have chronic stress, we have these consistently elevated cortisol levels. And and we know for a fact that this is contributing to overeating and weight gain in a massive part of the population. But if you're listening to this, and I've never thought about the importance of stress in your life, get it through your head that stress and chronic stress could be the number one factor behind why you're having trouble losing fat or maintaining your body composition. And managing stress is also very important. Now what's interesting is, after this episode comes out, probably it might not be for a few months, I'll be doing an interview. I'm not going to say your name just yet, but I'll be doing an interview with some actually a couple of interviews coming up. One interview is related to self care practices, which is something I don't talk about a lot because it's we often put it in the whoo category or like and you know, it's like at the bottom of the list after strength training and protein and sleep and everything else. But it could be the number one thing on your list in your life right now. that is preventing you from getting what you want. So I just want to emphasize that stress itself is important when it comes to hunger. Because the stress increases the hunger and then it all perpetuates. Alright, and in managing stress, you know, there's techniques like meditation and breathing, exercise and training and all that, to regulate your cortisol levels. This is why I love strength training, one of the reasons, I find that the acute stressor of training hard, seems to lower chronic stress. And because it lowers chronic stress, it also helps with hunger, just like walking does as well, just like having good gut health. And I'm not even getting into gut health today. But the more I learned about this more, I realized that that's important in hunger. So again, we're talking to science, we're not even getting to the hacks of how to manage it, because the best hacks of all are having a well balanced, low stress lifestyle, while you're in fat loss. And that's why we don't want to start fat loss when we have a lot of stressors on our life. Okay, so the corollary to this is going to be sleep that, right sleep affects your appetite regulating hormones, as well. And it increases cortisol. So it's like one messes with the other, and just makes it worse and worse. So when you don't have enough sleep, it disrupts hormonal balance, for hunger and fullness. Because when we are sleep deprived, we produce even more gralen. That's the hunger hormone, and even less leptin. And then we get increased appetite and cravings. Okay, and this is probably our body's, again, try, our body's trying to get back to homeostasis. And it says, Well, if you're going to deprive me of relaxation, and recovery, and getting into those different levels of deep brainwave states, so that my brain can recover, heck, I need to make up for it somewhere else, I need to eat food. So I'm going to increase your appetite. And that is why getting enough hours and quality of sleep is so important for managing hunger, and maintaining the body weight, the body composition you're looking for. And I've mentioned it before, but being sleep deprived, will not only cause you to get hungrier, when you're gaining weight, or when you're gaining fat, it causes you to store fat more in the visceral fat area, the protective fat around your organs, which is the danger, or I should say the dangerous fat that causes belly fat, right belly fat, you're going to store it in your belly. That's what I'm trying to say. So again, sleep here is technically like a hunger hack. But it's not on my list of that I'm talking about here. But I wanted to mention it in the science of hunger. So aim for the seven to nine hours of sleep, you know, get the quality, sleep, hygiene and all of that to keep those hormones in balance and reduce the likelihood of a hunger being higher than it needs to be. Another thing on related to the science of hunger is the influence of our senses. In the perception of hungry, this is important food, that sight of food, just seeing food, smelling food, and the sound of food like chewing or crunching, somebody eating a bag of chips.

Philip Pape 12:56

That was totally me just acting. That's pretty impressive, right? Those can trigger hunger and cravings, especially cravings, even if we're not physically hungry. Ah, come on, you know what I'm talking about. And this is why it's important to be mindful. And I don't mean mindful eating. But that's important, yes, but mindful the environment we eat in, and the sensory cues that were exposed to, and those cues and some of my clients know who you are, might include, you know, someone in your family loves to bake goods, and they're always baking in the kitchen always smells great. And the food's always on the table. We've got the pies and the muffins and the cakes. And they're there. And even though they know they're trying to support you, and they know what your goals are, and you think you've got all your steel will discipline there. The queues are unavoidable to our primal brains, right? So simple strategies like keeping those foods out of sight. Avoiding environments that have strong smells when you're hungry, eating in a quiet distraction, free setting, right? All of those help us tune into our physical hunger cues, and avoid overeating in response to sensory triggers. Now, notice, as I'm telling you about the science of hunger, I'm actually already sharing things that you might consider strategies and hacks to minimize hunger. Okay. And in fact, one more comes to mind that isn't even on my hunger hacks list. And I didn't even have it in my notes today. And I just thought of it. And so you're gonna get this bonus hack right now. When you go to a restaurant, you're probably hungry, you're probably hungry for a few reasons. You're hungry because you didn't want to ruin your appetite ahead of time. Like when you go to a restaurant, you want to enjoy the food, and you're hungry because of the sensory environment that we just talked about. This is what triggered it. You've got the visual environment of the tables and the place settings and the clinking glasses, the silverware. The smells of the food coming out of the kitchen. Heck, the smell coming out of the restaurant before you even walk in. Right? I'm convinced they put some sort of little smell capsules in there to make it smell like you know, char grilled steak, even when they're not cooking. But, you know, especially like a barbecue place. Oh boy, don't get me started. So You go in there, you're already hungry, because of all this stuff. And you're already thinking in your brain about the wonderful foods that are gonna be there. The wonderful experience is this positive thing for so many of us. And so if you don't have a plan, if you don't think ahead, you're just going to dive in and just start eating whatever and you can easily over consume. Now, how can you enjoy yourself, but but not over consuming? Okay? Now, this is a lot harder during fat loss, I get it. But whatever the situation is, if we're gonna go to a restaurant all the way I would do it is, and I think I heard this on April serveis, that YouTube channel or podcast, start with a fairly boring, nutrient dense low calorie, appetizer, like a salad that it's not so boring that you don't like it. But it's boring enough that it doesn't have very many calories. And when you eat it, it'll still taste good, because you're hungry. So in other words, start with a more bland, kind of boring, calorie dense or nutrient dense stuff first, because you're just so hungry, and ravenous, it's probably going to taste great anyway. And you know what I'm talking about, or, like, you're just hungry for anything, you'll eat anything, and it just tastes great, even like, you know, stale bread. Start with that, and then it starts to fill up your stomach. And then you start to get less hungry, and you kind of space it out, and then move to the more calorie dense stuff as you go along. And the idea being that you won't eat as much simply because of your hunger cues. Okay, so that that was the hack, I just wanted to tie it into this whole sensory environment. Now, there's also a psychological component to hunger during fat loss, right? There's a huge psychological components, you know it from day one of your fat loss phase, I know I do when I go from a bulk to a cut. And I was eating five or six times a day, and I was eating, you know, 3200 calories. And now I'm going down to say 2000 calories, that huge jump, it may not cause as much physical as psychological hunger, because I'm just not eating nearly as much food and my brain is like, what is going on something changed massively. You are eating five times, now you're eating three, you're going these long stretches nowadays, eating what is going on. And you become more food aware, and you think about food more often. And that makes you feel like you're hungrier. Right, even if you try to do the hacks like drinking water, and going and being busy. It's still there, right? Even if our physical hunger levels haven't changed. So this is the science behind it. That's, that's as detailed as I want to get, I really want to get to the hacks now. But it is very important to recognize that hunger is normal, it is expected want to revisit that concept, it's not something you could just eliminate. If you're not accepting of any hunger at all, you're either gonna go to fat loss, and you're gonna fail pretty quickly, you're gonna fall on your face, because you're just expecting it to be this easy ride. Or you just want to go at a slower pace, right? And incorporate more of the things we're going to talk about today just to mitigate that so that the hunger is as low as it can possibly be to where it's very, it's very below the surface, almost. And you could easily do that. Think about when you're just at maintenance, you're generally not hungry. Well, what if you just ate like 100 calories less a day? Well, you would start to lose weight slowly over time, and he still wouldn't be that hungry. It's a matter of degrees. Okay. Now, I personally like to go very aggressive early in a fat loss phase, and then taper it, but some people will go less and some people will do something in between like, go aggressive, but then the weekends are gonna go up to maintenance. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights, I started Wits & Weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to wits & weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today. I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. And if we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 19:22

So with that in mind, let's dive into nine of my favorite hunger hacks. And I mentioned that these are part of a full list. The full list has 20 Hunger hacks, this is my hunger hacks guide and it's completely free if you want it for yourself. Just click the link in the show notes or go to wits & weights.com/free, but the full hunger hacks guided by the way that website wits & weights.com/free. Or if you click free stuff, as a whole bunch of guys keep adding to it. They're totally free. Download as many as you want. Alright, here we go. Hunger hacks nine hunger hacks of the 20 in my guide, the first one is probably no surprise. Prioritize protein at every meal, and every snack when you're in At last, you need a lot of protein as a percentage of your calories, it ends up being 40 or 50%. For a lot of people, so just eat it all the time, just make it a rule for yourself that you're always gonna have protein. It's the most filling macro, it helps keep us feeling full and satisfied for longer, especially if you eat it from food sources. You might experiment if you're gonna have protein powder, experiment, having casing instead of whey and see if the longer digestion helps you feel full longer, for example, and all the all the protein sources or games, including game yeah, gave me lean meat, fish, eggs, tofu plants, it doesn't matter but have something that every meal and every snack, don't get hung up on the leucine threshold, don't get hung up on whether you have too much or too little. If your total protein for the day is met, you're good. After that point. If you're doing that consistently, you can go and look at other ways to optimize. Okay, so just prioritize protein at every meal and every snack. That's it. Number two, include fiber. Now, can you include it at every meal? Maybe not? Maybe not. If you have a primarily protein based meal, it may not have much fiber. But if you're looking for a number to hit, I'm going to try to hit for for women at least 20 grams a day for men probably 30 grams a day. Yeah, even during fat loss. And if you can go higher, even better. I came across one of my clients, his wife was doing keto. And so she buys all this keto food, you know, keto branded food, one of them is this keto bread. And I went and looked for something like that a Whole Foods and I found it because I wanted to try it out during fat loss myself. And it was like, it was like 80 calories for two slices of bread. Whereas normally two slices would be 220. And I looked at the package and it's you know, it's made from like wheat starch. The fiber was incredible. It was it was 10 grams a slice, or 15 grams, I don't know, it was some high amount, some crazy amount of it's like all fiber. Basically, you're Yeah, you maybe you're just eating cardboard, I don't know some people joke joke about it, right. But a lot of bread doesn't have a lot of flavor anyway. So it kind of works to hold things like a sandwich. Anyway, I got off set track there. But adding fiber will slow your digestion as well. So it's not just because of the goodness of fiber for your gut. And for your health. It's also for your digestion and for your hunger. It promotes fullness, big time, it bulks up the meals, it slows down the digestion. When you look at a packaged food, if you've ever scanned it into your food app, like if you guys use macro factor, but quick add here macro factor, download it, use a code Wits & Weights O N word, you get an extra week free trial, right out macro factor, okay? When you look at a packaged food label, and you look at the carbs, and the calories and the fiber, and it has a lot of fiber, you'll realize the math doesn't add up, if you use the normal calories per gram for carbs. So carbs we usually think of as having four calories per gram, just like protein. But fiber is less than that, because some of the fiber doesn't get digested. So the food companies are allowed to account for the true calories, which is fine like that, that's, that's honest, to be to be honest, they're not lying by doing that. For every gram of carbs, that's really a fiber gram, you're not quite getting four calories out of it, you might be getting two, three, or one, you know, it depends on the type of fiber and all that. In fact, there's insoluble right? Might be close to zero. So when you see net carbs, that's how they're calculated. My point is, it's an interesting concept when you think about it, because you're, you've got all this food volume, but the calories are lower. And that's kind of the benefit of fiber, right? That's what I'm trying to say. Good sources of fiber just from whole foods are going to be fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, legumes, you know, depending on how your diet fits those in with the carbs, maybe less on the table during fat loss or not. But definitely fruits, vegetables, and then again, whole grains it depends on carb levels. So fruits and vegetables are going to be my primary in that case. And that leads me to number three, which is incorporating vegetables and salads as much as possible. So I made this a separate hack. Because I think during fat loss, it's helpful that every lunch every dinner and then potentially one or two or three snacks including breakfast, you throw vegetables in there, you throw steamed, raw, maybe if you can handle it like raw vegetables, some people can't handle the digest, you know too much of that, especially like cruciferous or the FODMAP sensitivity or something but steamed vegetables cooked even like even pureed but the problem is I don't like that during fat loss because you're missing out on the chew ability which is gonna be a different hack that I'm gonna get to later. So I like what they call a big ass salad for lunch where you might have meal prep some chicken or pork or fish or you know, tempeh or whatever. And you incorporate it in a big giant salad with greens, peppers, zucchini, cucumbers, like all the things that are super filling I have my have a lot of water in them and very few calories. Okay, vegetables are great. I mean, I wouldn't even include some fruits in here like strawberries is a good one because it has five fiber and pretty low calories. So definitely throw those in your salad. Oranges are great. Orange is high satiety apples are high satiety but those in your salad right it's just Amazing. So this adds volume, right? The non starchy vegetables, they're low in calories or high in volume, they fill you up, they don't add calories to your diet, you know, go all out with all the different colors, enjoy yourself a lot of great flavors to enjoy freshness, you know, go with the seasons go with the farms, seasons and all that fun stuff. Okay. So if rule number one when a client says I'm starting to get hungry, Mike, I look at their data, say are you you got enough protein got enough fiber got enough vegetables. Usually they're good on the protein because we've already worked on that before the fat loss phase. But the fiber and the vegetables sometimes are lacking. And it's just, it's just a habit. It's just a matter of saying like, Okay, I need to meal plan a little bit to get these in, make sure I go to the grocery store, have them stocked up, you know, buy those giant boxes or bags of greens, make it easy on yourself, buy the pre cut up stuff if you want, or just chop it all up on a Sunday. Okay, number four, hydration, always I've got to have this on the list. I know everybody knows it. But a lot of people just don't do it. They neglect it. In fact, as I record this show, I realized I probably haven't had a glass of water in two hours. And that's a long enough time. And I'm a fat loss. That I'm probably feeling a little dehydrated right now, let alone the fact that it would have staved off some hunger now I'm not feeling hunger now because I'm doing this. Okay, which is one of those hacks I don't have on this list, but distracting yourself. But staying hydrated comes in a lot of forms. This could be water, of course water with electrolytes. It could be coffee, I know coffee is mildly diuretic. And of course you've got the caffeine to watch out for later in the day we do decaf, or have you coffee in your morning? Tea. Same idea. Diet soda. Okay, I am I'm a huge fan of diet soda. I love it. I know there's no there's no issues artificial sweeteners in my book. And if you have a problem with that, keep the hate to yourself, okay, because the science doesn't support any health risks whatsoever from moderate consumption of diet soda, just like there's not really a health risk of moderate consumption of just about anything. That's the point. It's moderate. It's moderate. Okay, so one diet soda a day to diet sodas cans a day, if that helps you curb your hunger. If you enjoy it, if it tastes great, if you'd like the fish and the experience, if you have a favorite flavor that you look forward to, okay, great. Enjoy it. Like it replaces the food in a way you know, mentally psychologically. It keeps you hydrated, right, it's something to look forward to. It's got it checks all the boxes. Thirst can be mistaken for hunger, you know this. So just staying hydrated on a regular basis can help. And then electrolytes like make sure to have electrolytes once or twice during the day will also help your body stay hydrated. Okay, so my point on that one is like if you feel hungry, and it wasn't that long ago, since you eat just go get a glass of water if you haven't had one yet, in a while. Alright, hack number five, spice up your meals, so that they taste better, and also increase satiety. So there's some science behind this, I don't I don't have the details. But I'm definitely aware that if you have more flavor, variety, more protein more robustness to the flavor. Your body perceives it as more satisfying, and therefore it can reduce the hunger. Right. And all you got to do here is add spices, herbs, anything you know, even mustard, anything that's like low to no calorie type seasoning to all your meals. Just go for experiment with different spices, find combinations you enjoy. This is the time to do it. Maybe you're meal prepping your meat, go ahead and experiment with a whole bunch of great spices at you know, the antioxidant effects of the capsaicin, right pepper base, spices, chilies, stuff like that can be great. But just just versatility in general and flavor without adding calories. Spices will be your friend. Alright, number six. Okay, this is one of those unique ones people don't talk about a lot. Having a consistent eating routine, a consistent eating schedule, can help regulate your hunger. And I believe it has to do with the fact that our bodies are very good at adapting. And when you are constantly changing things on your body, it will adapt. And in this case, the adaptation is more hunger. Whereas if you are eating the same day for same time for breakfast, lunch, snack dinner day after day after day, your body can expect it your body doesn't have to be stressed or seek out an adaptation. Because anything's changing. Nothing's changing. So it just kind of coasts along. And what I've seen happen to some people, when they get into a consistent eating schedule is not only does the hunger come down, but sometimes their metabolic rate goes up. Okay, I can't I can't guarantee that that's going to happen for you. But sometimes that happens simply because they're related. The two things are related. The fact that your hunger goes down is because your body has relaxed a little bit, become a little bit less efficient, which is a good thing with its calories. And so you burn a few more calories because your body knows the food is coming in on a regular schedule. So if your schedule is all over the place, this is a good one to look at, to help with your hunger. Okay, number seven, I got this one from Dr. Eric Trexler. I hear I mentioned it all the time, I think it's an amazing hack. I've used it myself, it works really well. And that is to choose harder, more substantial foods, foods that require you to chew more and it takes longer to eat. So this could be foods that are harder in texture, right, because they take more time to chew and swallow and they help you feel more satisfied. And that could literally be you know, instead of having ground beef, having sirloin that's maybe a little bit tough. Now, I'm not saying you know, badly cook your steak or cook it medium or anything like that, oh, I'm gonna trigger a lot of people with this comment. They can no more than medium rare for me, I'm sorry. But

Philip Pape 30:39

if you want a little bit, you hear a little bit harder. That's, that's what I mean. Now think about crunchy vegetables that just take a long time to chew. And there's almost no calories. Think about whole fruits. Okay, this is this is a reason not to put your fruits in a smoothie. Don't make a protein shake with fruit stirring fat loss, just have the protein powder with like water, almond milk or something, and then keep the fruit hole and eat it. That will actually help with hunger. All right, lean proteins, whole grains, all of that like whole grains, brown rice versus white rice. It's not just the extra fiber and the lower calories. But the extra to ability that tricks your brain and your stomach legitimately and physiologically tricks them via hormones to think that you're eating more food because there's more volume, they they require more effort to eat, they slow down the eating pace, they give your body time to register fullness. And I believe there's an aspect to your saliva as well. All the chewing, and the generation of saliva is also connected to this system of telling you you're eating something that's substantial, and therefore, you don't need to eat as much. So I think that's a really good one harder foods. Okay. Number eight is sleep. Okay, I forgot that I had this on the list. Okay, I did this, all this because I was telling you earlier, it's like, oh, here's an extra hack. Now it's actually on the list. And we already talked about it. So I'm not going to rehash all of it. But just in summary, not getting enough sleep will make you hungrier and will increase your cravings for a high calorie dense food. Because your body is making up for the lack of sleep. That's it. So prioritize your sleep for hunger. And then number nine, another one you might not expect is to practice positive reframing. If we can view hunger, since we know it happens, we know it happens. It's a sign that your body is responding to fat loss. So instead of you and hunger as a negative, you reframe it as a positive sign these your diet is working, you say, Okay, I noticed I'm hungry. That means I'm losing fat. Great. All right. When you feel hungry, you remind yourself, this is a normal part of the fat loss process, my body's responding to the calorie deficit. And I want to keep doing what I'm doing. And I've seen clients who check in with me and they're deep into a fat loss phase. And like, you know, I'm hungry most of the time now, because, you know, they're they're deep in right there almost at the end. But I'm also making so much progress that I, I accept it, like it's fine. It doesn't even take much discipline or willpower. I just know that the hunger I've experienced over the last 12 weeks has also correlated with the fat loss I've been going after, therefore, it's a positive thing. Okay, so that's it. That's number nine. So as mentioned before, these nine hacks are part of a larger list of 20 Hunger hacks that you'll find in my free hunger hacks guide. The guide includes 11 additional strategies for managing hunger during fat loss along with these nine, and the link to download the guide is in the show notes. Or you can go to wits & weights.com/free, to grab your copy. Alright, managing hunger during fat loss. It's a skill, it's a skill, like many of the other things we talked about, on this show, were all about learning knowledge, tools, skills, developing the expertise for long term sustainable success. And if you understand the science behind hunger, if you understand what it takes to just move the needle a little bit, you can make this whole calorie deficit thing a lot more bearable, right, because it's not supposed to be fun, but we want to be able to live life enjoy life and have the calorie deficit and get through it. Okay? The key to all of this is always finding what works best for you and your lifestyle. So, experiment with the different hacks, see which ones work for you. Reach out to me and let me know. Okay. And keep in mind that with everything we talked about, consistency is number one, and patience is right there as a close second. Because sometimes, you know, you might lack a little of one or the other. We need both. There'll be ups and downs along the way, always. And we want to celebrate the progress along the way, including the fact that hunger means we are losing fat, so that we don't get discouraged. Because if if you get hungry, and you get discouraged, like oh, no, I'm hungry, something's wrong. That's gonna set you back versus you know, hey, this is what's supposed to happen. And then you can achieve your fat loss, you can improve your health, improve your well being all the things we want to do. Alright, so again, if you want my full guide for hunger hacks, just click the link in my show notes or go to wits. & weights.com/free. And in our next app, Episode 159 Very exciting. Steve Hall is on the episode is called change how you train hard for ever with natural bodybuilders Steve Hall, you will learn what it really means to train hard. What exactly do we mean by that and how to effectively apply scientific research to your own training. We'll get into the nuances of principles like our IR, which is called reps and reps and reserve, proximity to failure and minimum effective volume MeV, and how these concepts relate to muscle growth. We'll discuss how to bridge the gap between research and practice based on your individual response to optimize your games while minimizing injury. As always, my friends stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Philip Pape 3/22/24 Philip Pape 3/22/24

Ep 157: Bill Campbell on Aggressive Dieting, Dirty Bulking, and Keto Effects on Muscle Building

What practical tips can you implement to lose fat as quickly as possible? How does a keto diet impact muscle-building? Dr. Bill Campbell is back on the show to revisit the latest in rapid fat loss. We discuss progressive vs. aggressive calorie deficits when optimal bulking becomes dirty bulking, the effects of a keto diet on muscle-building, and a new study that Bill's research lab is currently planning.

What practical tips can you implement to lose fat as quickly as possible? How does a keto diet impact muscle-building?

Dr. Bill Campbell, director of the Performance & Physique Enhancement lab at USF, is back on the show today. He was on the show in episode 92, where they discussed the latest findings on improving body composition through food selection, fat loss, training, diet breaks, and more. Philip (@witsandweights) invited him back to revisit the latest in rapid fat loss, including the findings from the Wits & Weights Shredtober challenge from 2023 that followed a protocol inspired by his research.

In this episode, they discuss progressive vs. aggressive calorie deficits when optimal bulking becomes dirty bulking, the effects of a keto diet on muscle-building, and a new study that Bill's research lab is currently planning.

In addition to his academic work, Bill publishes the Body by Science monthly research review, which has now published 20 issues. In that review, you'll find a summary of the two studies discussed today and real-world guidance from two industry experts.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:29 Bill's thoughts on the experiment based on his protocol
8:20 The effectiveness of the protocol and cautionary approach to aggressive dieting
11:58 Optimal training program for rapid fat loss
17:03 No resistance training for the most aggressive plan
21:43 New research study on menopause and rapid fat loss
25:18 Exclusion criteria for the new research and the purpose of walking
28:22 Measuring metabolic rate and other considerations for the study
32:43 Progressive vs. aggressive caloric deficits and how to start
40:56 Dirty bulking (Issue 18, Study 1)
44:35 Muscle vs. fat gain limits
51:15 Anti-anabolic effects of keto (Issue 18, Study 2)
55:15 Outro

Episode resources:

IG - @billcampbellphd
'Body by Science' Research Review - billcampbellphd.com
Philip’s Rapid Fat Loss Guide with the micro-cut protocol inspired by Dr. Bill Campbell
Ep 92: Physique Enhancement, Rapid Fat Loss, Plateaus, and Processed Foods with Bill Campbell, PhD

Episode summary:

In the latest episode of the podcast, we had the pleasure of welcoming Dr. Bill Campbell, an esteemed researcher in the realm of physique enhancement and performance. The central theme of our discussion was the intricate balance between losing fat and preserving muscle mass—a subject that resonates deeply with fitness enthusiasts and those on a journey to transform their physique. Dr. Campbell, from the University of South Florida's performance and physique enhancement lab, brought forth a wealth of knowledge on this topic, highlighting the Wits & Weights Shredtober (Oct 2023) Challenge.

The challenge, based on Dr. Campbell's research, aimed at aggressive fat loss while maintaining muscle mass, served as a practical case study for the discussion. Participants adhered to a carefully designed protocol that involved short periods of calorie deficits interspersed with refeed days. The outcomes of the challenge underscored the importance of maintaining a high protein intake and integrating resistance training into one's regimen to sustain muscle mass during periods of calorie restriction.

The podcast delved into the nuances of different dieting strategies, including the distinctions between progressive and aggressive calorie deficits. Dr. Campbell emphasized that while an initial aggressive approach might harness the motivation during the early stages of weight loss, a more nuanced, long-term strategy is vital for sustainable fat loss and overall health. Moreover, the conversation also covered the potential pitfalls and misconceptions surrounding the ketogenic diet in the context of muscle building.

As we ventured deeper into the science, Dr. Campbell shared insights from upcoming studies from his lab that promise to shed more light on optimizing body composition. The discussion explored the asymmetry between the processes of bulking and cutting, illustrating that a caloric surplus, beyond a certain threshold, leads predominantly to fat gain rather than additional muscle mass. This is crucial information for those planning their dieting phases and aiming for lean gains.

Wrapping up the episode, Dr. Campbell reflected on the role of individual preferences and psychological impacts when choosing a dieting approach. The take-home message was that there is no one-size-fits-all strategy; what works for one person may not work for another. Understanding this can help tailor a plan that aligns with personal goals, lifestyle, and dietary inclinations, thereby ensuring a higher success rate in one's fitness journey.

This podcast episode not only provides a rich source of information for fitness enthusiasts but also emphasizes the significance of blending intellectual understanding with practical application. For those eager to up their fitness game, the episode offers a comprehensive look at the art and science behind effective fat loss and muscle retention strategies. Follow Dr. Campbell's groundbreaking research and share this knowledge with peers in the fitness community as we all strive for excellence in our health and fitness pursuits.

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Transcript

Bill Campbell PhD 00:00

If you'd want to be aggressive and can be very aggressive for a short period of time, the evidence that I read would suggest that it's almost all positive in terms of body composition, meaning fat is lost, and muscle is retained.

Philip Pape 00:17

Bill Campbell PhD 02:27

to be back.

Philip Pape 02:28

All right. So we want to start with rapid fat loss, everyone's favorite topic. And we can definitely get to your latest research and latest findings. But if you don't mind, we'll set the context with the personal experiment that I ran, we had members of the community run it out of 12 people who signed up seven got through it, which is pretty good. And I sent you a white paper and you were gracious enough to take a look and review and give me some feedback. So for the listener, just real high level summary of what it was, it was a 14 day protocol, four days in a 45% deficit. One refeed we brought the carbs back up. So the calories equated the maintenance calories, then four days in a deficit one day refeed four days in a deficit. So pretty straightforward. Target macros were a gram per pound of body weight for protein, around 25% for fat of from calories of vary by person. And the remainder for carbs, we tracked a bunch of details, I personally lost about 3.6 pounds of fat, and minimal muscle, you know, as best as I could measure that. And then the average for volunteers was three pounds scale weigh one and a half inch on the waist, and expenditure dropped by maybe 100 to 200 calories. A lot of people really liked the simplicity of the diet and how short it was, despite it being aggressive. So the conclusion that I had was it was effective to quickly shed fat while preserving muscle and kind of psychologically get through it. But I did identify some other limitations like would higher protein have helped? Would more satiating foods help would more, you know, properly using the refeeds and sleep and all this other stuff? Okay. So that's the context for the study bill. I'll stop talking and ask you like what are your overall thoughts? We can get into any surprises that you saw? Maybe maybe not. Whether you thought it was successful, and then we can talk about some of the details of the protocol. Yeah, my

Bill Campbell PhD 04:22

first thought was I love that you actually took the the idea and then implemented it because we don't have much research on this. I think last time we talked, I did a rapid fat loss study that was a 14 day study. And then I reviewed an extreme fat loss or rapid fat loss study in my research review that was only like four days or seven days happening I want to look at it. So I'm very appreciative of people like you that know physiology that you you kind of like you map that out as your own personal experiment. I remember you sending me like the methods and everything I'm like, This is great. So loved, loved the fact that this was a Yeah, it wasn't something that you're going to publish. But it was an experiment. So that's when I, you can feel a lot better about okay, well, now we have actual data. And then I guess you were able to recruit some highly motivated people to unzip the first just the fact that you could execute on it and get other people. I applaud you for that. And then the, that my, my impressions after looking at the white paper that you wrote, was, it was, I guess I was, I don't know about happy, but I was like, Okay, this is good. This is what I would expect. And what I would expect was, since it was short, well, days of a pretty aggressive diet out of 14, almost all of the weight loss appeared to be from body fat stores. So that's exactly what we want. And I don't know how much we got into this last time, but I used to my former opinion was avoid this type of dieting. And now I have to kind of kind of contextualize that, and I say, you should avoid this aggressive dieting for extended periods of time. So that's the caveat, because there's too much research now. And even in application like you and your group, if you'd want to be aggressive, and can be very aggressive for a short period of time, the evidence that I read would suggest that it's almost all positive, in terms of body composition, meaning, fat is lost, and muscle is retained. So those are my general thoughts.

Philip Pape 06:29

Ya know, it's, it's one of the biggest surprises from individuals running it was they were worried that it would be just disastrous, like, you know, from from a mental standpoint, or you wouldn't be able to, quote unquote, stick with it. But because of the high protein, you know, they were fairly full early on, it wasn't a big deal. The refeeds created these nice little moments of relief, and then it was short. So that's the key now, when people reach out and they say, How much weight can I lose on that? I say, you're gonna lose exactly the amount of weight that the deficit suggests you're gonna lose, like, that's my answer. Do you agree with that? Like, is there any, there's no magic to this? Or is there any tweak you would make like, even higher protein, you know, one and a half grams per pound or something to induce any better outcome of this diet?

Bill Campbell PhD 07:14

Now, my only consideration would be and I don't know how the the group of people that you got to follow it. If are they typically eating pretty high protein, I know, a general what I call general population person, they may struggle getting that much protein. So I would have a little concern that it might be too much. Now I'm always the more the better one dieting, that is my philosophy. And it's particularly with this when you're reducing calories, by nearly 50%. We want almost all those calories to come from protein. But bodybuilders wouldn't struggle with that they're used to that. But I've found that people that are relatively more new that don't appreciate what protein does in terms of its benefits for fat loss for for muscle gain. And like you said, it helps control hunger. It's just a big ask to ask somebody to get that much protein. But in this case, well, let me ask you, did any of your participants have any problems? And where would you rank them in terms of they're pretty experienced dieters? They've been resistance training for a while, how would you describe?

Philip Pape 08:20

Yeah, I naturally biased the study, to join the study, as you have to already be lifting and tracking your food. So it filtered that out, I did have a few closer to newbies who were just, you know, very committed and made it happen. And then when I took the results, you know, some people did drop out. So we were left with the seven who stuck through it. And I separated it into an HIE adherents like a full adherence and not full adherence, and the full adherence group was 98.7%. On their protein, the all group was still 96%. So that close close enough, you know, very close. Yeah, close enough. So that's what I found. But I agree, like the big caveat, whenever I bring this up is this is not a crash diet. This isn't just somebody who's like, I got to lose weight. I've never done any of this stuff before. Give me your protocol. Let me run it like that. To me. That's a dangerous approach. It's an advanced approach. Sounds like you agree. right with that? Yes,

Bill Campbell PhD 09:12

yeah. And the thing is, when you have I don't want to call them normal people who aren't fit. And when they try this, they don't they don't know. And they don't care about protein. They don't care about doing any type of exercise. So they're, they're really setting themselves up for ultimately having more body fat on their body because you have to maintain your muscle that's that's the key. So in the wrong hands, this strategy is is foolish and more harmful than good. In the right hands or with the right education and mindset. It's, it can be helpful and two things on that note, one, I like the idea of being really aggressive at the start of a diet, because that's when everybody's most motivated after you've been doing this for, you know, 14 days, you're kind of probably somewhat beat down and to ask somebody to continue is a big ask. So I like to use the language of let's leverage your high motivation to diet more aggressively in the first week or two. And we can get a bigger body composition, success in terms of losing body fat. The other thing is, when I've since I've been into this research literature, there's multiple studies that show that it actually is a better outcome. And most of this literature's in people with obesity. But if they have early Fat Loss Success, and let's, let's just define that as the more aggressive, they are early, the greater the long term weight loss is, and that's what we're trying to do, trying to get long term weight loss. And along with that, this is where the health benefits come in. If somebody is overweight, and starting this, and in an in tries this very aggressive approach, well, then we have all kinds of health markers, like triglycerides, or lipid panels, metabolic health, fasting, it's like all those other benefits, according to the evidence are also happening along with fat loss. Yeah,

Philip Pape 11:10

for sure. I love that approach. And I would add to that someone who has excessive weight to lose, will probably experience some body recomp, potentially, even when they're dieting, because they have the brand new muscle stimulus from training that they're just starting. That's one benefit. The other thing with the aggressive start is your metabolism is at its highest because it hasn't gone through the adaptations. It's about to experience through your dieting phase. So why would you take like the inverse approach and go take it easy. And then later on, try to grow go more aggressive, and the calories are even lower? You know, I just started my whole fat loss phase this week. You know what I mean? That first, that first week, you always have where it's just this major change. And, you know, the lack of energies is showing, but I have a lot of calories to work with. So I'm taking advantage of a huge deficit early. I think it's a good approach. Yeah. Okay. Training, we didn't get into the nuances of it last time, based on the study so far, or your current work? Is there like an optimal type of program you would put someone through during a rapid fat loss phase? Or is it more of the principles of Hazon? As a progressive overload? And the tensions there the stimulus? You're fine? Yeah. Tell me your thoughts on that.

Bill Campbell PhD 12:18

Yeah. So I've been actually I've been thinking about this a lot. And later on, I can tell you about some some research that we're planning. And as I look at this, this, let's just call it the concept of rapid fat loss or aggressive fat loss. I'm trying to think through different dieting lengths, and what each length would need to have in it. So on one hand, let's just say the shortest amount of time would be seven days. So there's, I have in my head, nothing on paper yet, but a seven day plan, then a 14 day plan, which is what kind of what you did. And then I would say there's also a 28 day plan. So the longer in longer the wolf and let me also say, if the the philosophy that one has to embrace, if you're going to do this is you are prioritizing fat loss. This is the, let's not pretend you're gonna gain muscle you're not. Let's also appreciate that, by doing this, you could lose some lean tissue. Hopefully not we're gonna try to do everything we can to maintain it. But that we are, we are saying, you know, what, if we put effort into fat loss, then we may lose some lean tissue. And I also want to say when we lose muscle, when dieting, it's not gone forever. We get that back pretty quick when the diet when the caloric deficit is over. So that's also some people think, Oh, I'm damaged for life? No, not not, not really, just it's a short term setback. So as we look at this 714 and 28 day, the longer the intervention goes, the more and more emphasis I'm going to put on a resistance training stimulus, because that's the longer a caloric deficit lasts, and the greater the likelihood of losing lean tissue. So now let me go to the very the, the the seven day what I call the extreme approach, I wouldn't I would not even have resistance exercise in that strategy in that in that seven day plan, and I'll explain why. And again, this is all theoretical, but borrowed from a published study in males with obesity, where they put them on a four day extreme diet, it was a 320 calorie diet, all those calories came from protein, and it was four days and then three days of going back to their pre diet maintenance calories, which again is what you did for your two refeed days. And that study again, now these weren't resistance training people, but I'm gonna borrow from them for days of this 70 75% caloric deficit it was they lost all body fat loss. They didn't lose lean tissue. shoe. And even water was accounted for after the seven days of refeeding. So we keep we even have that address that you know how much of that was water, etc. And my thinking is, if we look at the two tissues, fat tissue and lean tissue, that tissue was much more responsive, acutely, lean tissue was not. So yes, those subjects didn't lose lean tissue. And that's because I think that the, the intervention wasn't long enough, if you continue eating 320 calories, you're gonna lose lean tissue. And it's almost like you with this approach, go in hard, go in aggressive and then get out. And you get the body fat, adaptive response, the loss, but it wasn't long enough to cause a downregulation, or a an actual loss of lean tissue. Now, let's forward that to kind of a model that you did a 14 day now I think that's that is a long period, now you're not going to give somebody 320 calories, you're gonna give them more calories, but still be aggressive. Now, we need to have a greater stimulus for Annaba anabolism. So that we don't lose muscle. So that may look like you know, three days per week, four days per week, whatever that is, you know, at the end, this is all theoretical. But now we're going to at least we're going to have that as part of the plan. And then also with the 28 day plan, we're also going to make sure that there's a resistance training stimulus. So in your group, did you tell people continue to doing what they were normally doing? Or how did you manipulate?

Philip Pape 16:36

Yeah, I did. I said, continue training. But if not, I think I suggested you had to you had to already be training when you started. But there were a few that were like, I want to just start training. Can I jump in? I'm like, you could try, you know, see what happens. But I suggested some very basic, like big lifts three days a week, full body type stuff, you know, just keep the intensity high, the load high, not too much volume, to manage recovery. So that's what we did. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Now, so on the most aggressive one, you said no resistance training as part of the plan? Are you recommending to abstain from the training because of recovery issues, or whatnot, or just it doesn't matter?

Bill Campbell PhD 17:13

Yeah. So in that study, again, not really, this hasn't been done in resistance training people. And I'm going to do talk about what I have planned, I'm going to do this in females, at least, that's the plan. But a seven day extreme fat loss or rapid fat loss plan would mean hey, we are doing this because we want to lose body fat, that is the overarching the primary goal. So part of this plan is, at least in the research study, that's been published eight hours per day of walking, plus 45 minutes per day of upper body, cycling exercise or abdominal exercise with your arm. So your arms are like making pedaling motion on an armored domitor. So in that case, not only are calories at 320, but the very low intensity, physical activity, the volume has very high, again, eight hours in this public study. So at some point, we wanted to target fat loss. And if I were to say even if your resistance trained, let's also do a workout where now we're not maximizing what we agreed was the primary goal, which was fat loss. Now, again, at some point, whether it's 10 days, 11 days, I'm not going to have that same philosophy, we do one and resistance training stimulus. But we're going to be so aggressive in the seven day study, or the seven day plan. And by the way, the seven day plan, it's only four days of dieting, and walking the last three days, or rest and bringing calories back up. So we recover from that. Because again, if we did that for seven days, I think, well, we're probably going to lose muscle mass, then they're going to have extreme hunger afterwards. And they're going to gain body fat back. So it's very targeted, precise on the number of days and the the lower body, the walking as the exercise is very high volume. And I think throwing in resistance exercise is not going to accomplish anything positive for the overriding goal. Interesting.

Philip Pape 19:21

Okay, yeah, that sounds very aggressive, and a lot of work. But it's short, it's extremely short. I did some quick math on my end, like, I'm probably at a higher metabolism than then an untrained person. But even if I were to dock it down a little, it would result in like 700 calories for me six or 700 calories, and I'd probably lose two and a half pounds or two, almost three pounds in those four days. Just to put the numbers in perspective. I don't know if that's similar. What you're seeing is like, pound wise, it's probably like two to four pounds, right is what we're saying. Could it be more? I guess you're heavier? Yeah.

Bill Campbell PhD 19:55

In the in the study that I'm relying on in these males with a Obesity, they lost 5% of their body weight. So if they were 200 pounds, what that's 10 pounds, okay, over this seven days, and I'm reading this, and I'm thinking, I'm always thinking ahead, yeah, but they didn't keep that weight off. They did. They measured, they went, again, after four days, they went three days later. So seven days later, they still maintain their weight than they want a month out. They they gained a little bit of that weight back, but it was still they still had maintained almost all of that weight loss. And then they even did it a year out. They said, Hey, where are these people at a year out, and they still had significant weight loss from where they started. So that's where the the health benefits of this approach, again, in the right hands with the right perspective, can be an overall health benefit by losing this excess fat, because that's another thing. We have to appreciate excess adiposity is not healthy. And we're trying to address that first and foremost. And in that study, again, lipid panel increased fasting glucose, I mean, all of the the multiple markers were significantly improved. And they were maintained. Now again, I'm thinking before I read that study, if you told me yeah, this is what people did. And then they followed up a month later, I'm like, they gained all that weight back. Sure. They didn't. And it was again, it was very targeted and precise. So that's what's guiding me. And I'm going again, I'm designing a similar study around this principle.

Philip Pape 21:29

So we're gonna keep teasing people on that. Yeah,

Bill Campbell PhD 21:33

I'm happy to talk about it. We're very close to submitting the IRB for that study. So yeah, we're working on three studies right now. So we can talk about all of them. Okay.

Philip Pape 21:43

Well, the one that you specifically tease me about that you wanted to talk about? Is that that one is a different study? No, no, it's the rapid fat loss. Okay, we could just segue into it, and then get to the other topics, so we don't jump around. Yeah. All right. So

Bill Campbell PhD 21:55

what we're doing is, so I kind of have two interests. So my first interest comes from my wife, she had a very difficult time through menopause. And my wife is somebody who's been fit her whole life exercises and attracts her macros eats high protein, and she basically hit a wall. And being married to a fat loss researcher, I would often do, you know, experiments on my wife, test her on this, to have her do this type of diet monitor this. And for the first time, in her adult life, since since we've been married, she was non responsive to a caloric deficit. And I was like, wow, this is, this is challenging me, because this shouldn't happen. So I just mentioned that because I want to start investigating and reading a lot of the research in this aging female population, it sounds horrible, my wife would say, I'm not aging, but whatever I'm gonna call it aging, the aging female population in their 40s and 50s. So having that interest, and then also the interest of just this rapid fat loss, we're going to do what's called a case series studies, which means we get a handful of women in a six 810, that we're looking at eight, and we're going to put them on a very aggressive, rapid fat loss. For seven days, what I'm going to do is have two women that are pre menopausal, we're going to have them eat, let's just say you know, a couple 100 calories, then we're going to do 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, or point seven five grams per pound. And they're gonna walk six hours per day, for four days. So very low calories, as much or almost all calories coming from protein, a six hour walking event, and we're going to do blood work, body composition, body water, metabolic rates, we're going to do all of the tests. And two women are pre menopausal to women are in menopause, meaning that you know, they're currently in the the rough spot for for some females that experience this. And then for females that are clearly postmenopausal to have those four are on HRT of some type, and two are not on any type of HRT. So just gives us an idea. Again, it's not a full blown study that's going to you got to be careful about conclusions you're going to make, but it's going to be the start of an area or a of a category of my future research interests. And I'm excited about this and I also want to make sure I give credit to my my research coordinator for this as Landon Shanahan. She's one of my masters students, and she's she's going to lead this project for me.

Philip Pape 24:43

That's awesome. Yeah, I bet there's a lot of women listening who their interests got piqued because this is a very hot area today, right Peri menopause and post menopause for women. Because of like you said, there's things that we guys can't can't directly identify or empathize with necessary earlier with the hormonal milieu, right, changing so much at that time, and 40s and 50s is kind of that timeframe. So I love how you're segmenting into all these different pieces, the 200 calories. I mean, you're almost fasting, but you're it's protein. It's all protein, like you said. So point seven five grams per pound. And do you care about the starting weight being in a certain range for your subjects? Yes. So

Bill Campbell PhD 25:24

what we have so far as my team and I are discussing this, they have to be resistance trained. So people that currently exercise, we will put a an exclusion criteria if they're too lean, because there's no fat to no body fat to lose in that case. So probably the only exclusion criteria would be if you know, if they're like stage a lean to start, and I'm just going to predict those will be a lot of the females that would want to do the study.

Philip Pape 25:56

To nine or something like, yeah, exactly. Oh, man. And then the six hours of walking, what does that look like? Is this controlled on a treadmill? No,

Bill Campbell PhD 26:04

it could be depending on the weather. So we're starting with the idea that we're going to do this on campus, so any female would have to live in the Tampa area. And ideally, I mean, it could be outdoors, or it could be on an indoor track, or it could even be on a on a treadmill. And what we want is I don't I hate overcomplicating things. I like things to be practical. So we're going to the instructions are you walk at a comfortable pace? So we don't want them hurrying. We don't want them barely moving, just hey, how would you normally walk? And we're going to have we're going to also do heartrate monitor pedometer. So we're going to get data on this. But I would like if this seems like it would be helpful to recommend to certain people, I just want them to say, Okay, I've got a walk for six hours. Now, does that have to be consecutive? I don't know, just over the 24 hours, a, a six, yes, six hour cumulative, intentional walk. So we're not counting like I need to go to the grocery store. No purposeful walking. And I imagine if I were going to which I am going to do this, I'm going to pilot this. I would imagine like I would probably do it in two hour segments. So two hours in the morning, another two hours right before lunch, and then two hours in late afternoon, if I would get if I had to guess and remember the male study, they did eight hours of this. That's a plus 45 minutes of arm ergometry exercise. So

Philip Pape 27:31

yeah, I'd have to have a lot of podcasts and Netflix and everything ready to go my standing desk.

27:35

Yeah. My name is Tony from a strength lifter in my 40s Thank you to Phil and his Wits, & Weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition and how to implement better ideas into my strength training. Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that. And he's continuously learning. That's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor. He's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. And one of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches. He also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talked with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him and help you out. Thanks.

Philip Pape 28:23

So Okay, a couple other questions come to mind. And one is, do you do a pre diet phase to measure their metabolic rate accurately.

Bill Campbell PhD 28:29

So we're going to have them track their calories for I think up to two weeks prior, also track their body weight so we can estimate what their maintenance calories are. And then we also will measure their metabolic rate. So what yeah, we'll have all that data. Now the reality is, that's good data to have, but because we're saying, we just want you to get 1.6 grams per kg of protein, and as little other additional fat and carbs. So what you know, sometimes something comes along with protein. It's not we're not looking at as much of a caloric deficit. This is a what most people would call a what a protein sparing modified fast. Yep. Yeah. So that's, that's essentially what it is. And we're getting we haven't submitted this yet. So we're still I'm glad that you're glad you're asking questions because I didn't even think of the cumulative or does it have to be all at one time? Or can they split it up? Like that's that's something I just had in my mind but when you're doing research you need to we need to put that stuff out there.

Philip Pape 29:31

Yeah, cuz I my head is it's kind of like when you first learn to train and you learn plate math, and it's just in your head all the time. You know, I have like expenditure math in my head all the time because I think I know you and a lot of the research talks in terms of like percent deficits and stuff like that. And I think in terms of like, percent rate per week, so it's more relative to your your expenditure and your body weight and and so when I hear like the term like when you said a non responsive to a calorie debt For sit right, I challenge that language a little bit. And you know, I did that by email to you with linear live trainings. Because to me if if you actually are in the calorie deficit, it will work. It's just that what you're saying is the attempt to be in a deficit resulted in you not being in a deficit?

Bill Campbell PhD 30:16

Yes. Or it become so untenable for a let's just say, for a female? Yeah, let's go to 600 calories. Good. There you go. Right. Exactly. It's not really what you know, nobody wants to nobody wants to do that. Yeah. Nobody wants to nobody wants to wreck Well, I don't want to recommend that. But yes, I mean, in theory in and maybe not even in theory, maybe in reality, hey, that's what if you want to lose fat, you're struggling, that's what you need to do? Or is there other things in play? And again, I'm, I'm admitting, I have a lot to learn in that population. But man, I'm telling you soon as my semester is over may 7, amen. I'm already getting the stack of articles that I'm going to pour through this summer.

Philip Pape 30:57

That's going to be awesome. Yeah, no, and coaches like us who work with those women feel free to reach out because when, you know, I see the strangest things, you know, I call it strange. It's just that there's some other variable at play. And it could be, you know, thyroid function and hormone imbalances. It could be the change in their behavior with life stress, and everything else, you know, there's a million things that come into play. And it sounds like what you're doing with this study is, you're like, let's just shoot way down under that threshold with the 200 calories, just just really drop it and see if that responsiveness occurs. And if it differs based on your menopausal status, which sounds like what you're trying to get out here. And that's pretty cool.

Bill Campbell PhD 31:32

Yeah, and maybe we recruit women, the two women in in menopause that are Peri menopausal, like, Hey, you, we want to recruit women who are not responsive. So let Yeah, like you're saying like, you're, you're telling me you can't? What if we have to be this extreme? Okay, yeah, well, I lost fat. But yeah, but you lost a lot less fat than the two women that are, you know, early 40s that are pre menopausal, or, or maybe, maybe they lose just as much fat. And then that's an that's a narrative that a lot of people don't want to hear like, Okay. When, when it's very well controlled. That was that was lost. So that that's a potential here, but I'm just excited to learn and then to, you know, to obviously publish this and share it. Yeah,

Philip Pape 32:19

no, I am as well. Is there anything else you want to say about that? Because I think you gave us a lot of the details. Yeah,

Bill Campbell PhD 32:24

I think that that's the extent of where we're at. And again, hopefully submitting that soon. So we can start collecting data in April.

Philip Pape 32:32

Nice. Okay. Yeah. Well look out for that, for sure. And I'm sure eventually will be in your body by science in some way. Get your? Yeah. Okay, so we have some other kind of related topics here. The next one is from your issue 12, study one. And he was on the progressive versus aggressive, slash consistent calorie deficit. The title for folks listening is efficacy of progressive versus severe energy restriction on body composition and strength in concurrent trained women, Vargas Molina at all from last year 2023. And just to summarize, the study, compared to strategies for restricting calories, right over eight weeks. And to clarify, because it gets confusing, constant aggressive, my understanding is, the intake was 25 calories per kilogram of fat free mass. So that's what it gets confusing people listening, because we don't usually think in terms of relative to fat free mass, right? Yep. So 25 calories, the progressive moderate, started higher at 40 calories per kilogram fat free mass, and then progressively dropped to 25. Both groups consumed a similar number of calories. But I know there's a caveat, because the progressive group didn't reduce their calories as much by the end of the study. And then they both lost similar amounts of body fat and lean mass and no differences in strength. What I find interesting before I even ask, the question is it seems the opposite of what you're talking about earlier? Starting more aggressive, right? Yes. 30? Yeah, less aggressive and getting more aggressive. So tell us about that study. And then maybe even like, is there a scenario that fits this? What are your thoughts on that? Yes. And

Bill Campbell PhD 34:09

I think there is a scenario that fits us and it is exactly the opposite of what where I believe is the ideal again, somebody says, I want to I want to lose body fat. Then I'm going to say, Okay, again, this pretending I'm putting my coach hat on here for a moment. You want to lose body weight. So you're motivated, how motivated are you? i Let me suggest that we be more aggressive, or as aggressive as you're willing to be this first week or two, because your body's going to be most responsive, and let's take advantage of your motivation. This study did the opposite, so to speak, it said, let's start. Very, very, you know, just let's just dip our toe into the water, have a very limited caloric deficit and then make it greater and greater and greater. As time goes on, and And what I've come to learn is, even though I'm gravitating towards this, let's punch you in the mouth, figuratively speaking, that's get into a deficit and, you know, and then and then come out of it. Wow, that's appealing to me. Some people do want no part of that. They would much rather let me start slowly. Okay, this is not ruining my life. Let's go a little bit more. So, the one thing I love about this study was, it provides an option and some evidence that it's just as effective as a, you know, let's just go on a diet and stay there. Or you can ease into it. And again, borrowing from other research where I like being more aggressive early. So it's all about the coach client relationship, and getting to know your client and what they prefer. That was my big takeaway from from that study, for

Philip Pape 35:51

sure. So it's interesting, you mentioned that some people would prefer that, to get their feet wet, I wonder, I wonder if we identify the buckets that those people fall into. And where I'm going with that is, like, when I work with a client, they want fat loss, we don't do it from day one, right? We spend some time pre diet to get everything in order, their training, the protein, their habits, get all the mental demons is out as, as much as possible, create that positive self identity, right. And then we go after it, in which case, the aggressiveness maybe is more palatable, versus somebody who's just like, I've never done this before. I'm just gonna jump in that that's kind of one bucket. But I suspect there is another bucket, like you said, that's different than you and me that just naturally in any scenario wants to take it slowly first and see if it's working. Do you agree? Or like, is there anything else I'm missing? Yeah, no, I,

Bill Campbell PhD 36:41

and I'll speak with confidence. I know, there's people that want to do the slower initial because I communicate with them. Like, I have a lot of conversations with people. It's kind of how I keep myself informed for research. There are there are people most of these happen to be women that I communicate with, like, yeah, I want to start slow, and then get, you know, kind of into this mindset. And if I had to, if you were going to tell me tomorrow, I have to cut my calories in half, like I would, it would just give me a ton of anxiety. But if it's only 10%. Now, again, I don't think that's personally I would never want to do that. But I I'm not a psychologist, but I I know enough. What you're motivated to do, you're going to do best. So what that's why I have to ask you these questions. And then we're going to come up with a plan that you will most adhere to, for you to get the most success. So yeah, that study was it is not how I would design a weight loss

Philip Pape 37:37

program. Right, right. And I totally understand what you mean, because I'll usually map it out on a graph visually for someone and say, Look, here are the three kind of glide paths that you get based on the aggressiveness. So you could make the trade off, you know, if you're psychologically you want to take it slow, just know it's going to take longer, right, just by definition, it's going to take longer, maybe like you said in this study, you actually ramp up the aggressiveness. And that's kind of a way to shorten the duration. What about the phenomenon in here where the progressive group didn't quite get to the level that was intended with the calories? Is that a big deal? Because it didn't seem like a big difference? But what do you do you know what I mean? Yeah, and

Bill Campbell PhD 38:19

this is where I'm speaking outside my, my expertise, I'm thinking, to, you're already dieting, and it's a lot of people struggle with just reduced calories. And then you look ahead, Oh, I gotta do some more next week and more next week. It's like, Where's the light? There is no light with that hurts not, it's not way into the future. So that could have been, hey, this approach does does, you know, it's, it has a limitation. And that's one of them. Which, by the way, let me just turn this around, when you start aggressive, and I mean, real aggressive, kind of like what we've been talking about so far. And then like, the next week, you're going to increase the calories. So you're doing the opposite of what this study did. You're like, Oh, I get all these extra calories. But it's still it's still it. Depending on the you know, the outlay of the diet, it could be a pretty, still could be a pretty large caloric deficit, but your perception is compared to what I just did last week. And I will whatever that psychology is. I love that, like I'm looking forward to these greater calories.

Philip Pape 39:22

Yeah, yeah, same thing. Same thing with refeeds. And diet breaks. I mean, your client says, Look, I'm going on vacation. I'm going on a cruise, should I and I'm like, let's stop right there. Chances are, Plan A is just, you don't even need to track you could if you want it's fine, but just just go back to maintenance. You're all you're gonna do is suspend it for a week and you're gonna have a blast on your cruise. Like, that's the goal of life. Enjoy your life.

Bill Campbell PhD 39:44

Since you mentioned cruises just when I was younger, many years ago, I used to be a personal trainer, and I did this full time. And there were an I used to work in country clubs where a lot of people will go on cruises, and I'll never forget A lot of these are more than a few times these people that I knew they would they would do a lot of the the aggressive chronic dieting to get in shape for their cruise. Oh, when they came back, it was more than one time, it was a significant amount of weight gain. So they did everything wrong. They starve themselves. And then we're on an environment where they had unlimited access to food, and probably not a lot of physical activity. So anyway, whenever, whenever somebody and you've mentioned, hey, I'm going on a cruise and diet, I'm like, Okay, let me

Philip Pape 40:40

Yeah, no, no, no, not at all. We might even like gradually get them up toward maintenance before the cruise just so they get used to being there. And it's not this binge fest. Yes. Okay, so yeah, let's, let's go to the next topic, because I'm really excited about this. A few questions came up in my head recently that I wanted to ask you, this is about dirty bulking. Okay. Issue 18. Study one. And this is about like, what's the limit for optimizing muscle gain versus fat gain. But a lot of talk about this recently, I've talked about the helms study that that we're, we're dealing with here as well, Eric Trexler, and others have been on podcasts constantly talking about it, as as I'm sure you have. So the study is, quote, effective small and large energy surpluses on strength, muscle and skinfold thicknesses in resistance train individuals, a parallel groups design. And they compare 1020 and 30%. surpluses above maintenance for building muscle and gaining strength. So both both measures, and they found that basically the 10% seem to be optimal, beyond which you gain more fat, and no more muscle beyond that. And it agrees kind of with the, if you put it in percent rate terms, like point two to point 3% body weight a week is roughly that same thing? That's generally I think, yeah, yeah. So you know, people use different terms like clean bulk, lean gain, dirty bulk, whatnot, I definitely want to ask you just about the general recommendation if people haven't heard this before, and then the pros and cons of for different goals. But then I want to get into some other questions. So what are your thoughts in general, like 10%? Do we think this is a very definitive finding here and agrees with all the other evidence so far? Yeah, my

Bill Campbell PhD 42:20

general interpretation of all the research would would, would be that that number 10%. Now real quick, that's not based on a lot of studies, but based on the studies that we have, as soon as you go above a 10% caloric surplus, so that's eating 10% more calories than you currently do, where you're maintaining your weight. What that study reported, and a few others that are, again, we're talking a handful of studies, what happens is after 10%, you're maximizing the your body's ability to maintain to increase lean mass. And above 10%, that's kept you're not building on more muscle. But any additional weight gain is now body fat. So anything above 10% is no more benefit to lean mass, muscle hypertrophy. And piling on which I can use those terms because we, that's what the other research would say, piling on excess body fat. And that 10% seems to be the the range. And let me also say this that study, a lot of people misinterpret that because even the abstract said, we put people on a 5% a 10% and a 15%. Surplus. That's not what they did. That's what they prescribed. But what the subjects did, approximately, and was what you said it was approximately 10% 20% and 30%. It was like, it was like 7% 18 and 28%. I'm just gonna say 1020 30 to make it easy. But a lot of people were like, they look at what they was prescribed, and they're like, whoa, 15% No, no, it wasn't, it was 30. It was almost 30%. So when you read that study, if anybody's going to read it, look, don't look at what the researchers prescribed, look at what the subjects actually ate, what their actual caloric intake was reported as. And I

Philip Pape 44:14

wonder if that was just a consequence of you're given a target you're trying to book. So you're gonna go a little bit over that target on a regular basis? Because that's the way I think when I'm talking I don't want to be under you know,

Bill Campbell PhD 44:24

yeah. So you might as well might as well go all in. So,

Philip Pape 44:28

yeah. Okay, so a few things come to mind what one thing people get confused about is, there's this asymmetry between losing and gaining, where when you lose if you're training, right, what the goal here is to maintain like 99% of your muscle mass and lose predominantly fat, right? So it's like, let's say even if you're not that successful, 95 to five ratio of fat to muscle loss when you lose, but when you gain there's this limit of you know, you're like in the 5050 range or the one to three, you know, two to three range of whatever, depending on your training age. And so you can't just like, from what I've seen, I don't know if you agree or not, the 3500 Calorie rule applies to fat loss very easily. But not there's, it doesn't apply mathematically to muscle gain, it seems you have to go lower than that, like more conservative to gain are like, Have you explored that topic or talked about it much?

Bill Campbell PhD 45:22

Well, yeah, I've I know that math. So a pound of fat is equivalent to 3500 calories. A pound of muscle, lean, lean mass is like 550 calories. So if somebody were to say, hey, 3500 calories, I'm going to gain a pound of muscle. No, I mean, if you were going to convert all of that to muscle, you would gain six pounds about you know, approximately six pounds of muscle. But as we all know, the body is slow to build muscle. So if you're going to overeat 3500 calories, say a week, you can you can rest assured that that's not going to lean tissue accretion. Yeah.

Philip Pape 46:03

And that's, that's a great way to put it, the ratio that you just said of like the 550 to 4100 of the total, right, when you add muscle and fat, is what roughly would you'd gain, of course, again, depends on your individual response as well. The second thing about this is there's this adage, right, mass moves mass, and there's there's truth there. I sent you a message earlier on an Instagram I think like that was going to bring this up, but I don't know if you saw, but it's okay. The concept is that you know, mass moves mass, the heavier we get, the more we can push our maximum strength, even if all we're gaining is fat, and a lot of people think well, if I just dirty bulk, if I go all in and just a 30% surplus, my lifts are going up, I deadlift, my squat, everything's going up. I've got to be building extra muscle tissue to support that right? And the answer still seems to be no, in which case, not why not. But why are the lifts continuing to go up? Because this study did show a benefit for maximal strength? In the quote unquote dirty bulking group?

Bill Campbell PhD 47:03

Yes. On an absolute basis. Yeah.

Philip Pape 47:07

Absolute exact not relative. And that's that's key, which then there's something at play, I believe it has to do a cross sectional area and leverages and things like that. Do you know, like the subtleties behind why the maximal strength continues going up with weight,

Bill Campbell PhD 47:22

not enough to say, I'm sure some, some biomechanics would say I'm all wrong, but But I will say I'll, my knowledge is what you said, the more maths you have, the more maths you're going to be able to to move. And the other thing is, when we look at all of the overfeeding studies, when they overfeed subjects by 1000 calories a day, or 500 calories a day, for weeks on end, they gain significant amounts of body weight, and some of that is lean tissue. So there's people aren't gaining pure body fat, they are gaining lean tissue even without lifting. So I'm not if somebody is a larger person, or they gain weight, they are going to gain some lean tissue and they will be stronger. And some of that is maybe because of the lean tissue they gain. But other things that like what we were saying earlier is they have more mass, they're going to be able to exert a greater force on an external object, because they have our larger mass. Yeah,

Philip Pape 48:18

and if we take it to the extreme sumo wrestlers, right, we know that they're they have tons of muscle mass. It's this, I guess, the old school powerlifting thought of why don't I just gain 150 pounds and get the not the relative strength, increased body weight, but just the absolute strength? And then when I cut, I'm gonna have way more muscle than somebody who did it the sort of, you know, the 10% surplus way, but I don't think it computes that way. Right? Is that, is that correct? Or is there a benefit to that?

Bill Campbell PhD 48:47

Yeah. I don't know the rules of powerlifting. But I believe there's it's always a relative strength, like they convert it to a Wilk score. But I'd have to, I'd have to text my buddy Leigh Norton,

Philip Pape 48:59

every hour, get them on the show. Okay, a couple more questions, then let's go the other direction. Lean gaming, everybody loves the idea of Lean gaining, maintain main gaining gained teeny, right? All the buzzwords of, okay, instead of the 10% surplus, I'm gonna go with the 5%. Or I'm gonna go a 2%. You know, just above that maintenance. Which, you know, my take on that as always, okay, if you want to spend years and years building muscle, you could do that. Is there a disadvantage from a relative from a relative standpoint in doing that? Or is it just a time? Like, you're just dilating the amount of time? Do you know what I'm saying?

Bill Campbell PhD 49:32

Yeah, I agree with you. 2%. I mean, that's not even outside the the rounding errors of the rice that I'm measuring, so 2% is probably not enough to move any tangible needle 5% Probably yes. That that would actually I would feel like okay, you actually are increasing your calories, but anything less than a 5% increment. I would say you're unless you're weighing your lettuce and your rice kernels. I wouldn't bother with 2%. So that I don't think any again, nothing. Very few people are going to be that precise.

Philip Pape 50:08

Yeah, good point, um, from a practical. From a practical standpoint, you would only know in hindsight, if you just over months like seeing the average weight trend go in that direction, but then it's too late. You've already gone past the point we made those decisions. And then what about women versus men? This this study was Was this on men? Yeah, train? Yeah. Yeah. All

Bill Campbell PhD 50:29

of the studies that I'm aware of, and in fact, I don't know if women would sign up

Philip Pape 50:34

for, say they don't want to gain weight for a study. Yeah. Because maybe there are I'm sure

Bill Campbell PhD 50:39

there are some but even not in one geographical location, I think you'd have a hard time recruiting. And And sadly, you don't have there's no trouble recruiting females for fat loss studies. Men, that's you know, that's, it's good for those that need to lose body fat. But I think we're both aware a lot of women think they should. And it's like, no, you're you're lean like it. Yes. It's unfortunate that you have whatever pressure that makes you have to lose her feel like you want to lose more. All

Philip Pape 51:08

right, in the interest of time, I wanted to touch one more topic, and that was the anti anabolic effects of the keto diet, study the issue 18 study to the effects of a ketogenic diet on body composition and strength in trained women speaking off as a fat loss study, regardless, Molina 2020, but they compare it to keto diet versus a high carb diet in resistance trained women, the keto diet group lost more body fat gained less muscle mass. The caveat there is they also ate on average, 270 calories less, but then you note that that could just be a result of the higher satiety of the diet. And then the higher carb group gain muscle mass and strength. So I have a whole bunch of notes here. But let's just jump in for time. You know, and talk to me about your thoughts, like let's is keto, recommended for anyone outside of medical conditions to be honest, for if you if you care about building muscle.

Bill Campbell PhD 52:01

So it is not the ideal diet if your primary goal is to build muscle? That study was a microcosm of other studies in males than the study was in females, but we have the same data in males. We have cellular data, where a ketogenic diet suppresses anabolic signaling in skeletal muscle. So if the goal is to build as much muscle less possible, it is not the best diet choice. On the flip side, if your primary goal is to lose body fat, the ketogenic diet has a lot of utility and value for the people who can follow it for expressing the reason that you suggested earlier. There is no other diet that suppresses appetite. Like a ketogenic diet, it's the best diet for making you have less hunger. So if it's a fat loss, I would put this on the table for clients like, hey, what do you think about this, you want to lose body fat? Here's an approach that would max that maybe help you with this? Again, if somebody wants to gain muscle, it's not the best choice. But then even then I would say, D, okay, you're not going to gain as much you're not going to optimize muscle. But do you like the ketogenic diet? Yes, yeah. I like it. Okay. Do you have any goals to step on Mr. or Miss Olympia stage? No, okay, then maybe this is still a diet for you to gain muscle, but you're just not going to gain as much as you could with this diet, because again, there's a little blunting of the of anabolic signaling. And we also have a study of males where it's suppressed testosterone as well.

Philip Pape 53:37

Yeah, right. And in this study, that was, yeah, you mentioned that that was an from a distance study. Sorry. Yep. And you also say, Yeah, repressed suppression and muscle protein synthesis, was what we're talking about here. Is keto, really more satiating? Or is it is it keto, compared to an uninhibited diet, more satiated? I say it like that. Because yeah, my clients I know, you know, eat a lot of fiber and nutrient dense foods, high satiety foods, you know, potatoes and apples and oranges are in there is if you're actually paying attention to satiety, is it more satiating? I'll say,

Bill Campbell PhD 54:11

maybe not if, if you're controlling for fiber, and if you're controlling for protein, so where that statement comes from, is, when you look at all of the studies where they didn't control for anything, ketogenic diet, sometimes or many times will lose more body weight. And then the false narrative is obviously it's better. It's like no, they significantly less calories. So there is some evidence to suggest that ketones help suppress or lower appetite. So in that case, it would be unique, but how much would that happen if calories and protein has controlled and fiber? Maybe maybe not as much, right?

Philip Pape 54:51

Yeah. And in a fat loss phase that gets fairly either drawn out or aggressive, the fat or the carbs end up being somewhat low. Oh, anyway, I would say not maybe not keto low, though, for because I guess we're defining is like maybe 50 or 30 grams, you know, some of that down in that range. Okay, cool. I know you gotta go. So is there any last thing you want to mention? Otherwise you can tell people where to find your stuff. And I'll make sure to throw those in the show notes.

Bill Campbell PhD 55:15

No, but I would love to have you contribute to my research review in the future. So hopefully, you'll take me up on that offer. You're a scientist. And I think you gave me some background of your past education, et cetera, et cetera. So, but thank you so much for having me on again. And let me talk about the things that I love to talk about.

Philip Pape 55:33

Thank you so much bill on on the record, I will definitely be I would love to contribute to your review, because I'm a passionate follower of it myself, as well as a lot of our listeners. So thank you. Again, I'm gonna you know, throw all this information that you review in there as well how people can find you on IG, and we're going to be in touch so enjoy the rest of your day. And thanks for coming on. Yes, thank you. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 3/19/24 Philip Pape 3/19/24

Ep 156: How to Lose 1,000 Pounds

What would it take to lose 1,000 pounds? Find out the surprising truth about dieting and discover a radically different, evidence-based approach to transforming your body composition.

In this episode, Philip (@witsandweights) talks about breaking the cycle of dieting and weight regain, strength training, and mindset shifts. It is not another quick fix or fad diet but a method that prioritizes long-term results through evidence-based approaches, focusing on body composition rather than simplistic weight loss goals.

Philip touches on the societal trend of repetitive dieting attempts and weight fluctuations, shedding light on the struggles individuals face in maintaining sustainable results. He talks about the dangers of perpetual dieting and yo-yo weight cycles, emphasizing the importance of preserving muscle mass during weight loss. He also discusses the significance of strength training and muscle building for overall health and body composition.

Today, Philip also introduces the upcoming launch of Wits & Weights Physique University, a dynamic semi-private group coaching program meticulously designed to elevate your fitness journey. This experience is tailored to empower you with personalized nutrition and strength training strategies.

🎉 Pre-Sale Alert! Be among the first to secure your spot at an exclusive pre-sale price! Join the pre-sale list now and receive priority access to join Wits & Weights Physique University. Just 10 spots will be available before the price goes up.

👉 Join the Pre-Sale List

Don’t miss this opportunity to transform your physique and enhance your well-being.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:27 Wits & Weights Physique University
10:50 The truth behind dieting cycles
15:00 Weight loss vs. fat loss
16:31 Breaking free from traditional dieting
21:24 The importance of body composition
24:53 Put a plan in place
27:15 Improving body composition through strength training
31:05 Training has to be hard, and reframing your mindset
43:17 Outro

Episode resources:

Episode summary:

Embarking on a health and fitness journey can often feel like navigating through a labyrinth of conflicting information and fleeting trends. Today, we are presented with a refreshingly straightforward and sustainable approach to dieting, strength training, and overall health transformation. The episode's underlying message is clear: traditional dieting paradigms are fundamentally flawed, often leading to a vicious cycle of weight loss and gain, also known as the dreaded yo-yo effect.

Philip opens the episode by confronting the harsh reality that traditional diets are typically designed for failure, leading not only to temporary weight loss but also to potential harm to our metabolism and overall health. Instead of fixating on the numbers on the scale, Philip urges listeners to shift their focus towards enhancing their body composition through muscle building. He makes a compelling case for the inclusion of all macronutrients in our diets and advocates for a flexible approach to eating, which does not demonize any particular food group. This philosophy is built upon the foundation of evidence-based strategies, which promise not just temporary reductions in weight, but genuine, lasting transformations in health and body composition.

The podcast delves into the psychological and physiological ramifications of yo-yo dieting, a phenomenon all too familiar to many of us. Philip underscores the importance of understanding the difference between weight loss and fat loss and the perils associated with the loss of lean muscle. Through a more holistic approach, which includes strength training and proper nutrition, listeners are encouraged to not just reduce calories, but to redefine their relationship with food and exercise altogether.

One of the most profound takeaways from this episode is the call to redefine fitness and shift our mindset towards health. Philip inspires listeners to perceive food as fuel and exercise as a celebration of what our bodies are capable of achieving. The emphasis on creating training habits and tailoring nutrition to individual needs is a testament to the podcast's commitment to providing actionable advice that resonates with a diverse audience. Whether you are a seasoned athlete or just beginning your fitness journey, the podcast serves as a personal guide to nurturing a healthier relationship with food and exercise, transforming them from burdensome tasks into joyous celebrations of health.

Moreover, Philip does not shy away from providing concrete tips on fat loss and ab training, often sharing insights from his own journey and struggles with fitness. His transparency and willingness to share both his knowledge and personal experiences lend an authenticity to the podcast that is both engaging and relatable.

In summary, this episode represents a call to action for anyone looking to break free from the constraints of traditional dieting and to embark on a more informed, flexible, and enjoyable path to health and body composition. It's an invitation to join a community that celebrates strength, nourishment, and the transformative power of a well-rounded approach to fitness. For those ready to challenge the status quo and embrace a new paradigm in diet and health transformation, this episode is a must-listen.

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Transcript

Philip Pape 00:00

What would it take to lose 1000 pounds? What if that approach is exactly the opposite of what it takes to achieve the health and physique you've always wanted? Today you're going to learn a Surprising Truth About dieting and discover a radically different evidence based approach to transforming your body composition. Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in Wits & Weights

Philip Pape 00:45

community Welcome to another solo episode of the Wits & Weights podcast. In our last episode 155 Six steps to rebuild your strongest healthiest body over 40. With Brian grin. Brian discussed how to find clarity tackle stress and make sleep your secret weapon for fat loss and muscle gain. We talked about nutrition myths, meal timing, and intermittent fasting plus effective strategies for training smart given your recovery capacity and joint health. Today for Episode 156, how to lose 1000 pounds, we're going to tackle a topic that might sound insane, but there's a method to my madness. And there's a reason I titled it this ridiculous number of 1000 pounds. And before he started thinking this is just another fad diet or quick fix, which would be kind of insane. Just hear me out right what we're really going to do. What we're going to explore today is the truth behind the dieting cycle that so many of us have experienced this is men and women. For most of our life. Let's be honest, when it comes to what the numbers tell us, which is 95 to 99% of people are always dieting to some extent and then fail to maintain those results. We're also going to talk about how it can hold you back from achieving the health and physique you've always wanted. So by the end of this episode, you'll either have a new understanding of or a refresher in. Number one, why traditional dieting often fails, why it can be harmful to your health to your metabolism. Number two, the importance of focusing on body composition and building muscle. We love muscle here, not just weight loss, and in fact, sometimes not weight loss. Number three, how flexible dieting and strength training can help you achieve sustainable results results that will give you lasting changes for the rest of your life. And the mindset shifts needed to do that. Now whether you've been struggling with this exact thing, yo yo dieting, dieting cycles for, you know recently for years for decades, or you're just starting your health and fitness journey. On this show, we are all about bringing you knowledge and tools. That's it knowledge and tools that you need to break free from some of the conventional traditional wisdom, quote unquote, on dieting, on eating on movement, and start actually making progress. Now, before we dive into the show, even though I'm really excited to get into the topic, I've also got something really special to share with you for the first time ever on the show. And it is relevant to today's episode. So let me ask you a question. Do you feel like you're stuck in that cycle, whether a cycle of restrictive diets, you go on keto, you come off, you go on Carnival, you come off, whether it's endless cardio, because you feel like you just got to keep moving to burn fat, whether it's your lifter, and you keep getting stuck, not quite able to build that muscle. And you just find yourself back at square one, whatever that means to you. And you're putting in all the effort. That's the thing. We're taking action. People listen to the show, if you're listening, I know you are learning and growing and trying to do everything, every trick in the book, to build muscle to lose fat and still not always seeing the results. And wants you to know that you are definitely not alone. And by that I mean, almost everybody on this planet deals with these issues. To some extent, myself included. And I was there several years ago, I've come a long way. And I'd love to share that on this podcast and help you do the same. And I've seen time and again, clients, the Facebook community, you know, my podcast listeners, people who are ambitious people who are in their 30s 40s, beyond who you know, faced life, and they've learned and they still have these challenges despite putting in the work. And maybe you've even succeeded everywhere else, your career, your family, your personal growth. But when it comes to your physique, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall. So I want you to take that. And now I want you to imagine a world actually, for those of you who are child of the 80s like me, you know from the 90s and 2000s. The movie, the guy who announced the movie trailers in a world where you're not just another member in a crowded gym. You're not just a follower of the fad diet are the influencers. I want you to picture yourself with a clear plan. It's Taylor Just for you, for how you like to live your life, or how busy you are. And you're able to build a strong, lean, healthy physique. You don't have to sacrifice a bunch of time and like carve out your schedule for a million things. You don't have to sacrifice your lifestyle you're eating out, you're going to vacation, your travel, you're enjoying baked goods, ice cream, whatever it is. And imagine feeling completely empowered physically, mentally, emotionally, like, I know what I can do, I've got this, I know that every action I take is going to create an output that I have control over. And then finally, you look in the mirror and you say, Yeah, I did that, like I did it, and I can do it again. So if that's the confidence you want, I am introducing for the first time on the podcast, something called Wits & Weights physique, university, this is launching in April, it's been a passion of mine for probably over a year now to take what I've learned from working with one on one clients from talking to so many of you in, in the free calls that I do in people in the Wits, & Weights, Facebook community, in all the experts with all the guests that I've had, and experts I've spoken to on podcast, and put it into a format that is more accessible to more people to make more of an impact. Now many of you may already know or maybe not that I offer one on one coaching right now one on one, coaching tends to be a lot more expensive. It's not for everyone, it's a much more tailored hands on approach. But this new program is more of a semi private group experience. And in my opinion, it goes way beyond typical, quote unquote, group coaching programs, because what I want for you is what I would want in something like that, okay, I would want education, I would want application, I would want personalization. And I would want a community that could support me actively, not just in Facebook group, you know, I love our Facebook group, something where you're completely dedicated with like minded individuals, going after the best version of yourself. But I don't want to keep it a mystery. So I'm going to tell you what you get. And then I think this coming Saturday, I'm going to record an episode specifically about the program in detail for people who are curious. But here's what you get in a nutshell, there are gonna be weekly live coaching calls. So that right there is an excellent learning and coaching opportunity, a custom plan based on a unique assessment that you take. All right, right there. Most group coaching programs don't do that for you. This isn't a template, this isn't like a macro prescription. This is you submit a form, I or my team take a detailed look at it and put together a plan for you that that's like an 1820 Page nutrition plan. I'm going to drop monthly workout programs, okay, based on the principles that I espouse when it comes to strength and muscle. And these will be for different skill levels, different equipment, different days per week, and so on. So just sticking around for those could be worth it for you. I'm going to have courses, this is the backbone of why I'm calling it university courses in everything from nutrition to training, to hormones to metabolism, I'm going to constantly expand this. So if you're in the program, you're going to get new stuff all the time and constantly be learning, because I want to bring you the ultimate DIY experience, which is crazy for a coach to say, right, because a lot of coaches, they want to kind of hook you into their program. My values are that if you can learn to do it for yourself, but you continually learn and grow, the continual growth is where the value is. And that's what I want to bring you, I want to take you from 80 to 90 to 95% to 99%. And then constantly be able to apply yourself and get better and better over time. And the cool thing is, as I mentioned earlier, it's accessible, I'm bringing it to you at a fraction, the cost of one on one coaching. And here's the thing, you'll be part of a private community, it's it's beyond what something like Facebook can provide, it's going to be much more personal. There'll be specific channels for different phases. So like if you're going after fat loss, you hang around with the fat loss crowd if you're going after muscle building, hanging out with that crowd. And you can jump around, depending on your needs. So I mean, kind of think of Reddit or slack or something like that. Put in a private community. And you can still get some one on one attention there with weekly check ins in the community, hence, the semi private experience. Okay, enough about that, because I don't want this to be a big sales pitch. But I did want to announce it for the first time and I'm very excited about it and hope you are too and you can hear my voice where I'm bringing all the awesome things of one on one coaching to more people. That's the goal here. So if you're ready, if you're ready to get that clarity if you want to launch your physique transformation, and do it sustainably in a community of like minded, curious ambitious fitness enthusiasts, right, that's what we are Wits & Weights physique University is where it's going to be. And I invite you to use the link in the show notes to put your name on the presale list. So I'm rolling this out in a way that I think is fair, the very first group to be notified will be my private clients and people who've had been intimately involved in our community with they've had calls with or they've attended my live events, and they've gotten on this special VIP He lists let's call it and then everyone else who's on the list that you're going to sign up here in my show notes. You loyal listeners of the show are going to have the next opportunity a few days later. And then finally, it'll go to more of a public lots. So those the first few slots, I think I'm going to make 10 slots available, it's going to be for 97 a month. This is basically free kits, like a like a guinea pig group, just to get the program going and you get first crack at it. And then the remaining presale slots are gonna go up to 147 a month, which is still an amazing value, and then the final launch price is probably gonna be around 247 a month. Alright, so if you want to get on that presale list for that early notification, just click the link in my show notes and again, Wits & Weights physique University is going live in April, and I'm gonna release more information all about the program on Saturdays bonus episode. All right, let's get into today's episode because the foundational principles of what we're talking about are completely irrelevant to the types of things you're going to learn and apply in the Wits & Weights physique University, today's episode is called How to Lose 1000 pounds. Alright, first, I'm going to explain why the title of the show actually makes total sense. Picture this because you probably can actually picture it because you lived it. First you decide to lose weight, then you start a new diet, keto, anyone, carnivore, anyone, vegetarianism, whatever. And maybe you get some success. In fact, you probably do have some quote unquote, success as in, the weight on the scale goes down. But then something happens, life happens. The weekend happens, the trip happens, the injury happens, the sickness happens. And before you know it, you're right back where you started. If not, let's be honest, a few pounds heavier. So if this sounds familiar, it's because it is so prevalent. You're not not only not alone, it's probably 90 95% of people have gone through this. And I did some research. And this is where the episode title comes from. It looks like most people try dieting at least 100 times in their lifetime. And I can believe this because I had a guest on a long time ago. I don't remember who I feel like it was a woman who said women that women tend to die at like 120 times on average. But men are not far behind. Let's be honest, we also have been wanting to lose weight and go through these cycles. Every time you die, you probably lost some weight, you lost 10 pounds, 1520 pounds. So if we assume 10 And you've dieted 100 times 10 times 100 is 1000 pounds. So to answer the question, stated by the title, how to lose 1000 pounds, most people actually do that.

Philip Pape 12:35

Okay, and it's not really a trick. I mean, I did trick you, let's be honest, I wanted to listen to the episode, but I'm giving you the goods. Now, the only reason people have lost that 1000 pounds is because of course they keep gaining it back and then having to do it over and over and over again. But here's the thing, is that cycle? Is that process of losing weight really what we want, like why are we going after that? Ask yourself every time you've stepped back into the Keto world, or the diet world or Weight Watchers, or Octavia or whatever it is, why, why are you doing it? And then when you lose the 1015 20 pounds? Does it make you happy? Does it get what you want. And today I want to dive into this. There's a lot of mindset stuff here, but there's some physiology as well. And we're going to explore a more evidence based way to transform your body and improve your health. So for those who are longtime listeners of the show, I think this is a great episode to refresh you on why we're doing this like and how this all works. So let's start by taking a look at the dieting cycle. We talked about how often people die at least 100 times in their life right there. If you just go by the number of years people live, I mean, even if somebody started when they were 10, and they went to their 90, and that's 80 years, that's still more than one diet a year. Right? Yes, crazy. And it's probably compressed into a certain timeframe right? For a lot of people might be starting in their teenage years, teenage 20s 30s, right kind of the vanity years, let's call it but then it might ramp up as you get the hormones start to kick in, especially for women, but men as well. And you just go on these cycles. But every time you lose weight, you also you also probably gain the weight back and then you gain more. And this is that yo yo diet, right? The effect of losing and regaining weight. It's frustrating for sure. But it's actually very harmful to your health into your metabolism even if you stayed the same scale weight that entire time. Because first let's think what happens when you diet. When you restrict calories, right? Your body starts to compensate starts to conserve. It induces metabolic adaptation, a totally normal process. Nothing you can do about it. That's fine, right? Your metabolism slows down, conserves energy, the more you die, well, if you are constantly dieting, you're constantly going into that mode, right? And then when you start eating again, you're now primed to regains energy that you've lost as fat. And if you're not tracking, eating flexibly, all the things we're going to talk about in a minute, if you're just indiscriminately eating, whatever, you're probably going to gain more So now let's add another layer on top of that, which is where I really think the rubber meets the road. And how vicious this cycle is. That is the weight loss versus fat loss comparison here. Because when you lose weight, if you're not strength training, if you're not eating the protein, you're going to lose muscle and you're gonna lose a lot of muscle, we're talking like 25% of it up to 50% of it as a muscle, it's a big number, you lose 20 pounds, five of it must be muscle, then you gain 1020 pounds back, it's all fat, you do it again, muscle, beginning back fat pounds and pounds and pounds of beautiful lean muscle tissues just fine off your body, the one thing we want to keep and grow, you're just losing, and you get more and more skinny fat, get more and more fluffy. But even worse, metabolic disease sets in, you know, fatty liver disease, you get more insulin resistant. Like all the things that we associate with obesity, and poor health and older age, even if you're not that, quote, unquote, heavy according to the BMI. But many of us do that as well. Because what you find when you lose muscle, is it's even easier to gain the fat. And then you end up gaining more and you get heavier, and then higher body fat percentage is this vicious cycle. And you're not sure what to do next, because all you've done in the past is diet. And it leaves so many people feeling hopeless, and feeling defeated. But it doesn't have to be that way. That's what I'm doing this show for. And that's what I love that you're listening today. Because this is going to change your life if you've never heard it before. And if you have, it's just hopefully going to re motivate you as to why this is important. One of the problems of traditional dieting is it's just too restrictive. And it's completely unsustainable, right? So I'll get to the Fat Loss Weight Loss thing, but right now I'm talking about the dieting itself. Because even when you are trying to lose fat and your strength training, and you're doing all the other things, right? The way that you approach your diet is extremely important. Let me ask you this, would you rather cut out foods or just cut out calories. And it's important to think of it that way. Because when you want to lose weight to lose fat, meaning you are, you're training to build muscle, you're holding on to the muscle, and you're losing weight to lose fat. When you want to do that, you have to be in a calorie deficit, you just have to be energy balance, right. And you can either do that by cutting things indiscriminately, so that somewhere down the line, it results in you eating less. Or you can go right for the jugular and say, you know, what's a more efficient way to reduce my calories? How about reduce my calories? Let me say that again? What's the most efficient way to reduce your calories? Reduce your calories? Now, what do most people do, they don't reduce their calories, they cut out carbs, or they cut out seed oils. So they cut out plants for God's sake on carnivore come on cutting out plants, right. And you start cutting out so many things that naturally cause and effect and effect and effect in effect, you end up cutting out, you know, the corn chips you normally have. And you cut out the alcohol you normally have you cut out the nuts, the big bag of nuts you have every day and you know, it ends up leading to guess what? A calorie deficit. So why don't we instead of cutting out foods, we just moderate the calories and the macros where we want them and then eat whatever the heck we want to hit those macros and calories. So I think it's very twisted. People get backward when they say Oh, I don't want to count calories. Oh, that's restrictive. Oh, you shouldn't calorie restrict, there is a time and place to go in a calorie deficit in a controlled manner when it's combined with healthy movement practices. And so when you're going to do that, why wouldn't you do it as efficiently and in control as you can? Right? So instead of cutting out food groups are drastically reducing the you know, your diversity of what you can eat, which not only deprives you of important nutrients, it simply sets you up for failure. The lack of things means you're going to want those things, period. You know it? I know it? Okay, I love ice cream. If I said I'm cutting out ice cream completely. All I would think about is when Can I have ice cream? How can I fit it in? When can I sneak it in? Oh, maybe I'll just cut calories here so I could fit ice cream and over there. And it becomes this whole restrictive talk this conversation in your head. Okay, who wants to live their life without pizza or ice cream Come on, or whatever that vise is for you. Now I did just get a ninja creamy, which I know is all the rage now. So I've jumped on that bandwagon. And I will say it is quite amazing when you can make an entire pint of ice cream that tastes like a frosty from Wendy's that has 300 calories, 50 grams of protein and very little fat and carbs. That is amazing. And I encourage you to take advantage of science in that way. That's perfectly fine. Okay. But the truth is here focusing on dieting in a restrictive way is not to your benefit. And I wanted to mention that because at some point there is a need for a calorie deficit to go into a fat loss phase and we want to at least diet the proper way. But now I want to go back to the conversation of dieting and weight loss in the first place. Why do we even do that? Right? Yeah, you want to be better physique, you want a better physique, because it'll help you feel great look great, you know, be a role model for your kids have more energy and so on. But when you've lost the weight on those restrictive diets in the past, did it give you that, and I posit that it probably did not. Unless you were doing a bunch of other things, to hold on to your muscle and improve your body composition. Hey, this is Philip. And I hope you're enjoying this episode of Wits & Weights, I started Wits & Weights to help people who want to build muscle lose fat and actually look like they lift. I've noticed that when people improve their strength and physique, they not only look and feel better, they transform other areas of their life, their health, their mental resilience and their confidence in everything they do. And since you're listening to this podcast, I assume you want the same things the same success, whether you recently started lifting, or you've been at this for a while and want to optimize and reach a new level of success. Either way, my one on one coaching focused on engineering your physique, and body composition is for you. If you want expert guidance and want to get results faster, easier, and with fewer frustrations along the way to actually look like you lift, go to wits & weights.com, and click on coaching, or use the link in my show notes to apply today, I'll ask you a few short questions to decide if we're a good fit. And if we are, we'll get you started this week. Now back to the show.

Philip Pape 21:24

Right, so let's talk about body composition. Because body composition is just what it sounds like. It's the composition of tissue in your body of fat to muscle. And we give it a lot of lip service. And people talk about it all the time. A lot of people I don't think understand exactly how to get there. And one of the big misconceptions I hear often is, well, I'm just gonna get lean before I build muscle. Very common, I just need to lose the weight before I build muscle and I've fallen trapped to this myself, I've fallen trapped to it as a coach with my clients who come in, they're not really that overweight, but they're just so uncomfortable with their body. And having felt like they've lost the ability to even control that aspect of it, that they want this, they want a quick wins. And so what I'm trying to balance is a quick win, but not a quick fix, right. And there is a very fine balance. Because for a client of mine who's working with me where I can monitor everything and do it in a controlled safe fashion, we can absolutely set up for fat loss for about 4678 weeks, without cutting calories, right? We set up for it, we get your training where it needs to be dialed in, where you're training heavy, but having lots of recovery. You're not doing too much cardio, you're just doing the right amount and you're walking, you are eating plenty of protein, all the things and then yeah, we can go after a controlled fat loss phase, even if in reality, I would really love that you would gain muscle first, okay? It's not my body, though. It's your body and I want to work with you. And because I'm there as your coach, I can at least help guide you through that process in a safe way. Get the quick win without the quick fix, doing it sustainably and then saying, Okay, I've lost a few pounds, I'm feeling good, I understand how this works now. And I trust you that I can go the other direction and build muscle with very little weight gain. And, and even if there is some weight gain, a lot of that's going to be muscle. Okay? Now the I don't want to make this whole muscle building talk because I did an entire podcast on that. I have a guide my muscle building nutrition blueprint that came out, you can get that at wits & weights.com/free, if you want the whole guide to building muscle, but I just want to talk about the fact that a lot of people unless you're very overweight, don't necessarily have to lose weight. You can maintain your weight. You can train strength train, right, apply this flexible dieting approach where we are tracking macros, and we're tracking calories. And we have this more sustainable way of eating whatever we want. Including the indulgences that we enjoyed maybe 10 20% of the time, instead of cutting out entire food groups, getting the right balance of protein, carbs, fat and yes, carbs. Carbs are important. Unless you're in fat loss where the carbs naturally get pushed pretty low. More carbs are generally going to make most people feel better. There are lots of carbs to choose from. So don't get don't get pigeonholed and thinking of carb is this one thing, right? There's fruits there starches, there's grains, those are the big ones. There's carbs that are contained in plant sources like legumes, right beings. So the right balance of all these things for your body for your goals. What are you still enjoy your favorite foods in moderation and make progress. I just had a talk yesterday with a client was wedding next year. This is a male client now about two thirds of my clients are female, third or male. And I expect every type of client that I work with, whether they're all about building muscle and gaining or they're trying to lose fat and get get lean. When Wits & Weights University comes out we're going to have plans for every style of goal the physique goal, but at the end of the day, everyone will go through every phase at some point, right? I'm a big fan of periodized in the nutrition and so he has a wedding coming up and we are talking about what makes sense If it's over a year from now, he wants to improve his physique a bit more, he's lost a little bit of fat, gain a little bit of muscle, what do we do? And I said, Well, you've got the time is on your side, like, if time is on your side, you're not pressuring yourself with a date. You know, like, I've got to be ready for the summer and you know, three months, which I get it, some people have those goals they want to put on themselves. And then we just need to do have realistic expectations. But if you got time on your side, it gives you a lot more options. And I always prefer the option that says, let's, you know, plan for the worst hope for the best. Meaning we put a plan in place that is conservative enough to give you weeks and weeks of, quote, unquote, falling off track. And normally I hate using that phrase, but most people know what I mean by that. And because you're planning it in, it's not really falling off track, you're basically saying, Look, life's gonna happen, I'm going to take a trip here, trip here, trip here, somebody's gonna visit me, we're gonna go eating out here, and then we're gonna have a party on this day, a party on that day, we've got the holidays on it ended up and because life is going to happen, assuming happens, planned for it and say, Okay, well, in an ideal world, this amount of fat loss or this amount of muscle building would take, you know, 16 weeks or 26 weeks, I'm going to tack on like 25% of that, because I've got all this time to work with giving myself the chance for diet breaks, or maintenance breaks, give me a chance for going faster or slower. That extra time gives you a chance. And that means you can have a flexible macro plan by macro, I don't mean protein, fats and carbs. I mean, like big picture, you can have this flexible plan for not only, you know, day to day or flexible, but week to week and month to month, the whole thing is designed with your life in mind, life is going to happen, right? And so he and I came out with it with some very conservative rates of gain and rates of loss that gave him a lot of buffer. And we said, look at any given time, you can choose to step on the gas pedal and go after it and be more aggressive. You know, within reason, right? We set limits, because you don't want to lose too fast. You don't want to gain too fast, or else you get unnecessary muscle loss or fat gain. And there you go. So when we talk flexibility, that's what we're talking about. Now, I'm kind of meandering, from topic to topic, but it all it all is gonna tie together pretty well. We talked about flexible dieting, we talked about body composition, how do we then improve our body composition in that context? Well, that's where the building muscle comes in. That's where strength training comes in strength training, with progressive overload, training, close to failure, so that you progress and get stronger over time, will help you look and feel better than you could ever imagine. Whatever the scale weight is. So that's the beauty of it. That's bringing me back home, in what I was talking about here, that instead of losing weight, why don't you build muscle, build muscle at maintenance, build muscle in a lean gain, or build muscle in a more optimal, slightly more aggressive game? Either way, it's going to benefit you in the long term, no matter what, even if you carry a little extra fat, the extra muscle is worth way more than any negatives from extra fat. Let me say that again, extra muscle is worth way more in on the positive side than any negatives from extra fat. It's so true, like muscle is the cure to obesity, that I'm just gonna say it that way. muscles, the cure to obesity, I have plenty of clients who are bigger guys, or even bigger. Women who are super strong have a lot of muscle. And they are in fantastic health. But if you looked at them, you'd say, wow, they carry a little extra weight. And they're cool because they want to carry the weight. They feel stronger, more capable, functional, and they're pushing a lot of weight. I have plenty of other clients were like No, no, I want to be lean, I want to have a six pack, I want to have the muscle definition. Okay, we still build the muscle first, and then we just lean out a bit more aggressively than someone else might. Having more muscle mass means you can eat more without gaining weight. Okay, that is a weird word in my book. I don't know. I mean, there's a couple reasons for this. The first is, muscle is an expensive tissue for your body to carry. It is not a natural thing to carry this extra muscle, we naturally lose muscle over time. But we have these beautiful things called weights and machines and cables where we can load our skeletal muscular system and actually prevent the loss of muscle mass with age and add new muscle mass, right? That muscle mass is expensive in terms of the resources required from your food from the amino acids, okay to constantly rebuild that tissue. And so you burn a few more calories by carrying more muscle mass. Not only that, you burn even more calories because you're probably walking around at a heavier scale weight. And this is again, the opposite of the dieting cycle thinking of I need to get skinnier, skinnier, skinnier No, no, no no no. We want to get leaner and stronger and fitter and more muscular but muscular doesn't mean bulky. It doesn't mean bulky ladies, muscular means, you know hard, tight, operate, good posture, like you look like a an athletic human being. That's what it looks like. Okay, men and women. Unless you're on steroids, you're not going to get bulky. Even men aren't going to get bulky without a lot had to work over many, many years, and a lot of eating. So having more muscle mass means your muscles gonna burn more, and your body is going to burn more all because you are carrying more weight, which also means when you die, and when you gain you do it from higher levels, not because you've magically ramped up your metabolism, it technically, other than the fact that you carry more of stuff that requires energy. So in that sense, you have like, does that make any sense? If you and someone else with the same body composition, you can't change your metabolism, alright, and I've used that term in the past incorrectly, you can't really change it, you can just change your body so that your metabolism is correlated with that new body. Does that make sense? So maybe it doesn't matter. Because you at the end of the day, you're burning more calories. And that's looks like changing your metabolism. So we'll we'll leave it at that. Okay, so I'm trying to, I'm looking at my notes, see, if I anything I missed in this section, with strength training, the thing to remember is being consistent. Okay, I did a quick wits about this recently about just getting started as often the hardest thing and then being consistent, the training has to be hard. Now, art is a very nebulous term. And I've talked about this in many contexts. But it should be hard enough to push your muscles close to failure so that they have no choice but to adapt when you're sleeping the next day, and get a little bigger, so that you can live more the next time and more than next time. Okay, strength training will help you build that lean, toned, hard muscle, whatever word you want to do, which actually will make you look smaller, in a good way. Right, lean or whatever word you want to use, and more defined, even if the scale doesn't change. Okay, so all of these concepts are really important to revisit, over and over again, in our heads and understand why building muscle is important, and also helps us get over the mindset of the fear of building muscle, which often requires gaining weight. So how do we make that shift? How do we make the mindset shift from focusing on weight loss to, I'm gonna call it health and body composition, because I think they go hand in hand, I think weight loss, which causes you to lose muscle, if you're not going after fat loss is what I mean, is detrimental to your health. Getting skinny by virtue of just indiscriminately losing a bunch of tissue is not good for your health. Whereas adding muscle, whether the scale goes up or down is, is supremely helpful to your health. All right, but a lot of it does start in the mind. And so if you've ever listened to me talk about reframing positive reframe Allah, very positive guide naturally, but I also have learned as a skill to reframe things in a positive way. And when clients check in and again, if you join the Wits, & Weights University, one of the earliest course modules I'm going to have in there, it's about mindset, all the aspects of mindset, it's not fufu type stuff, even though there's a place for some of that, if anybody knows me, it's evidence based. But it's also practical. Like that's what I want to be is like, what tools do we use to shift our mindset to serve us and our goals. So for example, instead of seeing food as the enemy, or seeing exercise as punishment, we reframe those things, right? Food is fuel food is nutrition for our bodies, right? It gives us the energy, we want more of it, we want to add in the foods that serve us add in the protein that helps us build muscle, add in the carbs, it gives us energy in recovery, add in the fats that support our hormones, add in the things that don't mess with our digestion, right? Add in the things that keep us full, adding indulgences here and there that keep us sane. So that's food, exercise or training is a celebration of what our bodies can do training and lifting weights, when you can go in there and push the iron around, move the cable around, whatever, and engage with your muscles and just bring it all together as this beautiful system that can work together and push things around. Like that is a celebration of your body. But you can do that. And you can do it more and more effectively. And you can push more force, the stronger you get. And then that causes you get more muscle definition and get bigger and stronger and leaner and harder. And all those great things. All right, very passionate about this. When we focus on nourishing our bodies, and moving them in ways that feel good, we're more likely to stick with the habits. That's where the consistency and habits come in. Not forcing ourselves to do it with discipline and willpower. But taking a little action, seeing the win that comes from fueling ourselves and for moving. And then we just want to do it over and over and over again, no matter how hard it is. When you approach health and fitness from this place of self care and compassion, right as much as I talked about lifting weights, yeah, it is a is an act of self care, as opposed to how to lose 1000 pounds, which is fun. caching yourself in restricting yourself. When you do that, when you care about yourself enough to prioritize these things, amazing things can happen because that is when you actually enjoy eating nutritious foods, you look forward to your workouts, you start to see changes in your energy, your sleep, your well being and yes physiologically to and things like your hormones. And of course, visually, your body composition, your physique, you get more muscle, less fat, and whatever drives you like for a lot of people having more energy is kind of a nebulous thing. But like, looking great naked in the mirror is very visceral. So take all those things, and they're all valid for you, whatever drives, alright, so the key, even though I just said, those drive you right, and you have a goal somewhere down the road, the key is to focus on the here and now for the process. Because if the process can be enjoyable, like eating the food, like doing the workouts, you'll get the outcome, and they go hand in hand, right? You get the small wins along the way. Like I lifted five more pounds this session than last session, I chose to have this or that at the restaurant. And always remember, progress is never linear. Like I have to I tell my clients this all the time, and it still comes up because it's in our nature to beat ourselves up. Especially when we're very ambitious. When we are do it yourselfers, we almost put perfectionism on ourselves. And then there's these ups and downs and the downs tend to be amplified. But what matters is you keep showing up because the UPS will outweigh the downs over time. And then eventually, mentally, you get to the point where the downs are tolerable, and then there and then you almost don't care because you know, with certainty with confidence, you are going to keep progressing, no matter what life throws at. All right. So to recap, man, I'm totally into this topic, I hope you guys are to the dieting cycle, the losing and regaining weight, in the form of mainly, not mainly, but fat and muscle is terrible for your health. It's also frustrating. So instead of focusing on that, why don't we prioritize body composition, prioritize health through these simple pillars of flexibility of sustainability. And it really pervades everything we talk about from a sustainable approach to lifting, which means prioritizing recovery, and progression and balancing all of that a sustainable approach to eating where you eat whatever you want, but you have the restraint of the energy balance that you need and the macro balance you need for your goals. And by shifting our mindset to one of self care and compassion. All of these things make it sustainable, because they are in tune with a positive, healthy psychology and way of living. That doesn't feel like we're fighting against ourselves. So if any of this resonates with you, I encourage you to start small, right? I encourage you to download macro factor and start tracking your food. I encourage you to commit to a string training program, right and schedule it in, get ready to go and reach out for help if you need to know how to get started. If you need any support or guidance on along the way you're listening to this podcast I want you don't know this isn't a podcast where you just consume information. Okay, this is a podcast where you can get resources to help. I'm a nutrition coach, we have a community we have the Wits & Weights, physique, university starting up, the whole purpose of that is to provide more and more impact to more people to navigate this exact journey and find what works for you, not what to cut out, not how much you have to run. But what works for you. Thank you so much for tuning in today. You know, we covered a lot. Thank you for sticking with me is what I meant to say. Right, we talked about the truth behind the dieting cycle, we talked about a more effective approach to transforming your body transforming your health, focused on body composition, flexible diet, dieting, and strength training. And that will help you break free from this endless cycle. And we talked about the mindset of self care and compassion. So as we close out today, I do want to remind you of a game changer. Okay, this is going to be a game changer in April. For those stuck in the frustrating cycle of diet of cardio of all the old usual things. The fifth floor answers the this is bad, this is bad, this is bad. Let's get away from all that. All right. If you've got little to show for all of your hard work so far, something's got to change and if you're ready for change, Wits & Weights physique University is launching in April, and it's going to be a unique semi private group coaching experience that in my opinion is unlike anything out there. It just isn't. I have not seen anything that has this much support value and personalization in a semi private setting, community setting. All right, this is where you're going to achieve the physique you want. Strong, lean, healthy, you're gonna get a program that blends personalized but flexible nutrition, strain training, you're gonna get monthly programs, educational courses, weekly coaching calls, an incredible community support system, and all of it at a fraction of the cost of one on one coaching. So if you're ready, are you ready for change if you're ready to transform your physique and join a community of like minded fitness enthusiast, who just don't want to stay stuck in the dieting cycle rat race, then jump on the presale list right now, by clicking the link in the show notes. secure your spot take advantage of the special presale price, which is just crazy low. Anybody who knows typical prices for you know, good nutrition coaching because I know there are a lot of terrible coaches out there. I'm not going to call them out by names. But if you if you run them by me, I'll let you know.

Philip Pape 40:49

It's a crazy price, and you want to get it before it goes up. So let's make this year the one where you finally achieve your fitness goals. How's that? Alright, in our next episode 157 Bill Campbell on aggressive dieting, dirty bulking and keto effects on muscle building. Dr. Campbell is back on to revisit the latest and rapid fat loss, including our findings from the Wits & Weights read tilbyr challenge last year that followed a protocol inspired by his research. He and I discussed progressive versus aggressive calorie deficits. When does optimal bulking become dirty bulking, the effects of a keto diet on muscle building, and a new study that builds Research Lab is currently planning you're gonna have to listen all the way through to find out what that is. And I do have one more little surprise. All right, if you're not yet a subscriber of Bill's body by science research review, by the way, I have no affiliation. I don't get any kickbacks, none of that. Okay, if you don't subscribe you yet, now's the time because I had the honor. I felt so honored that Bill asked me to do this. But I had the honor of contributing as one of his two experts for the March 2024 issue. So all I'm asking for you as a favor is Go subscribe. You could do a monthly if you just want to get the one issue. But then you'll probably get hooked and unsubscribe or I think he has an annual option. So go subscribe to body by science a s AP, so you get the March issue because this episode is dropping in March. And I think he only includes like the last two issues when you subscribe. So definitely subscribe now. So you get the March issue. And I just want to support my friend Dr. Campbell. I mean, he does great research down at University of South Florida. And he's a phenomenal guy he's doing right by the world. And he's a great teacher as well. I've learned a lot from him. So hit me up if you do that, if you subscribe to body by science, hit me up by Instagram, at Wits & Weights or by email at Phillip at wits & weights.com. And just let me know, hey, I subscribe to Bill's review. I want to know how many of our community are taking him up on that offer with the contribution that I made in there because I made two contributions are going to find interesting one is on ab training. Okay, which I don't know if I've ever actually talked about on the show, other than like one quick quits. So it's all about ab training, both nutrition and training. And then the other one is on my entire fat loss protocol. Like how would I set it up soup to nuts? And what's the importance of fats and carbs in that equation? Alright, that's it. I hope you enjoyed this episode of How to Lose 1000 pounds and now you know exactly what I meant by that. It's not what we want to do is that we want to we want to get strong. And as always, I want you to stay strong. And I'll talk to you next time here on the Wits & Weights podcast. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Philip Pape 3/15/24 Philip Pape 3/15/24

Ep 155: 6 Steps to Rebuild Your Strongest, Healthiest Body Over 40 with Brian Gryn

Can you regain your energy and strength while losing inches to turn back the clock by 10-15 years or more? Philip speaks with Brian Gryn, host of the "Get Lean, Eat Clean" podcast, author of "The Stepladder System," and the go-to guy for men over 40 who want to improve their health. In this episode, Brian shares his six steps for rebuilding your strongest, healthiest body after 40. He shows you how to find clarity, tackle stress, and make sleep your secret weapon for fat loss and muscle gain. They also discuss nutrition myths, meal timing, and intermittent fasting, plus effective strategies for training smart, given your recovery capacity and joint health.

Can you regain your energy and strength while losing inches to turn back the clock by 10-15 years or more?

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) speaks with Brian Gryn, host of the "Get Lean, Eat Clean" podcast, author of "The Stepladder System," and the go-to guy for men over 40 who want to improve their health.

Like Philip, he shares no-nonsense, practical fitness and nutrition advice. In this episode, Brian shares his six steps for rebuilding your strongest, healthiest body after 40. He shows you how to find clarity, tackle stress, and make sleep your secret weapon for fat loss and muscle gain. They also discuss nutrition myths, meal timing, and intermittent fasting, plus effective strategies for training smart, given your recovery capacity and joint health.

Brian is one of the good ones in the industry. He cuts through the noise, avoids fads and quick fixes, and gets real results. He's been in the health industry for almost 20 years, coaching middle-aged men on how to build strength and healthy habits they can use for the rest of their lives.

Brian has a background in Functional Diagnostic Nutrition. He is in the business of making health transformations tangible, focusing on what really works over the long term.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:53 Personal connection that led to the principles
6:33 Clarity in health goals and its impact on motivation and adherence
9:34 Journaling to align the mindset and setting a baseline
16:00 Managing stress in busy lifestyles, including stress reduction techniques like meditation
22:03 What to do when stress levels are high
24:38 The role of sleep in fat loss, muscle gain, and performance, including quality improvement tips
29:12 Core nutrition principles
32:19 Intermittent fasting insights
38:16 Debunking nutrition myths
41:10 Meal timing effects on metabolism and energy
44:06 Training strategies for men over 40, focusing on joint health and balancing various activities
52:05 The question he wished Philip had asked
55:12 Where to find Brian
55:40 Outro

Episode resources:

Brian's Podcast: GET LEAN, EAT CLEAN
Website: briangryn.com
IG: @brian_menshealth
The Stepladder System – https://www.stepladdersystem.com/

Episode summary:

As men age, the challenge of maintaining peak physical and mental performance becomes more daunting. The latest episode features Brian Gryn, an authority in men's health over 40. He offers an in-depth discussion on revitalizing your body and mind, emphasizing the importance of fitness, nutrition, and mindfulness for men who are looking to thrive in their prime.

Brian's approach is not just about shedding pounds or building muscle mass; it's a holistic method that also focuses on mental clarity, sleep quality, and the timing of meals. These elements are vital for a sustainable lifestyle that fosters vigor and vitality. The episode delves into the power of positive thinking and stress management, showcasing how these psychological components contribute to peak performance in both sports and everyday life.

The podcast doesn't just provide insights; it shares personal stories and expert strategies. Listeners will learn how to transform their inner critic into a source of encouragement and how to use stress as a catalyst for resilience and success. Brian and host Philip Pape discuss how even the busiest individuals can incorporate moments of mindfulness into their daily routines, using simple meditations and breathing exercises.

An essential part of the conversation centers on optimizing eating habits for maximum satiety and tailoring workouts to individual needs. The dialogue touches on why certain foods can keep you full longer and how adjusting carb intake around fitness regimens can yield better results. Listeners will gain an understanding of the role of resistance training in maintaining joint health and muscle mass, especially as they age.

The final segment of the episode focuses on the mental aspects of fitness. It highlights the importance of tracking progress, setting incremental goals, and maintaining a positive mindset. The discussion reinforces the concept that physical activity is not just about improving the body but also about enhancing mental well-being.

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Transcript

Brian Gryn 00:00

Not everyone's meant to like benchpress I don't think I think especially as you get older, you know might be tough on the shoulders, the joints. And if you can find a better way to maybe utilize different tools in the weight room to help with joint integrity, I think resistance bands is something that I never used to use. And now I use it from time to time and it's the fact that

Philip Pape 00:20

Brian Gryn 02:09

Phillip, thank you for that introduction. Copy paste that onto my patch best. Happy to give it to you might have to take that from you.

Philip Pape 02:20

You gotta have the epic Avengers music behind it. You know, they're really set up.

Brian Gryn 02:24

Love it. Yeah, thanks for having me on.

Philip Pape 02:26

For sure. And we met on your podcast. And you were gracious enough to come back on here. What we wanted to talk about today was the six principles from your book. And I want to let the listener know, this was my idea. And we're not just here to promote a book, we're here because there's a ton of value in these six steps for overall health and nutrition. And before we dive into each of those, Brian, what is your personal connection or experience that led to you developing these principles?

Brian Gryn 02:53

Yeah, so the principles came about from my own personal experience along with working with clients. I mean, I don't think with these principles, there's nothing groundbreaking, I think that's why they're sort of principles, right? You're just getting back to the basics. It's like, I always equate everything to golf, it's like, you know, you can do all these fancy things, but a lot of it comes down to like grip stance, you know, setup. And you know, same type of thing with health and fitness, I think it's easy to get caught up in a lot of the minutia, the details that go on, you know, if you're on YouTube, or, or Instagram, and everyone's got a new tip of the day. But a lot of times extra can can sort of take you farther away from your goal, I think. So that's why I want to sort of create this book, just sort of put it all together, I almost think it's like a workbook, because you sort of fill out as you go. And it gets you into act taking action steps as opposed to just reading more information, because there's plenty of information out there people can find that as much as they want. Yeah,

Philip Pape 03:52

I mean to two great things you mentioned there. One is the idea that they are principles, a big fan of principles versus methods. I mean, we need methods at some point to take that action, but the principles never change. And you're right the 1% is where so much attention is paid especially on social media it gets the clicks you know the cold plunges the red light therapy, even things that we think are kind of ho hum like soft supplementations still are just that tiny percentage of what moves the needle. So it's it's great that you got to that point, but I did want to dig in a little bit more personally with you. I'm not asking Hey, what is your story you know, people can learn about you and I don't want to take half the podcast doing that they want to get the information but like seriously, like what what have you gone through what have you learned? What's the Hard Knocks that you've experienced? that got you to, hey, this is important for me to put out in the world. Maybe it's helped you to help clients. What's a on that?

Brian Gryn 04:44

Well, it's it's interesting because my journey through how I started as a trainer and just sort of coaching in strength training, nothing around nutrition, meal timing, things like that. Sleep stress, things that we'll touch on A and I think the one thing I learned from that is is like, I mean, resistance training is a big piece of the puzzle. But a lot of times with individuals, especially a lot of my clients, which are men that are 40. Plus, you have to sort of dig a little bit deeper and touch on other aspects, because they're all sort of intertwine, and I love resistance training and talking about that, but also realize that, for people to get optimal results, they're going to have to maybe focus on other things alongside resistance training to really get what they want. So I think that was sort of my big thing that has grown through the years because I just first started out doing one thing, and now I try to touch on all those different principles to help people get, you know, optimal health.

Philip Pape 05:42

Cool. Yeah, that's probably why it appeals especially to, you know, to guys like me, and a lot of our listeners here, I think we have very similar audiences, from what I can tell when I was on your show, because the over 40 crowd is growing. And it's the demographic where we've got issues that catch up with us in life, right, we've got our personal obligations and our life stress, we have recovery and joint health challenges. A lot of people in the age group may not have started until late in life, but now you can't just say I go lift weights, there's all these synergistic things that go along with that. So all right, great. Thank you for setting the context. And let's dive right in. I think I have the six steps lined up, the first one being clarity. And that's an interesting one to start with. How do you find clarity? What does that mean? Why is this the first step in your stepladder?

Brian Gryn 06:30

Oh, well, I mean, I think that a lot of times people want to go from like, A to Z in like 2.5 seconds and just get to where they want to go, without necessarily digging into why they want to get there. I know, like, was a Simon Sinek Yeah, cynic who's done a bunch of, you know, TEDx is and things talks about, like, you know, his the why. And I think it's important about, you know, health as opposed to and along with other areas of your life, but like, getting crystal clear on that. And, you know, having, you know, sort of complete awareness of any, like unconscious patterns that aren't serving you. And that have hindered your progress in the past. So I think if you create some clarity as to why you want to get to where you want to go, and, and then understanding what has not worked in the past, I think that's like a good first step to start with. And a lot of times that could be coming coming down to I think we talked about it with you on my podcast is sort of recording and understanding and tracking what you're already doing, or what you're not doing. And then in sort of assessing that, and then building a sort of a program from that. So

Philip Pape 07:38

like clarity, again, we're talking about not only your goals, as you just mentioned, but also what is maybe shouldn't be part of your goals, or the unconscious patterns from the past that have sabotaged you from reaching your goals. And that's always an interesting one, right? Because I don't know if you found this in your career, but early on. For me, I was surprised at how much mindset played into this, even though I shouldn't have been, I think that was one of my unconscious patterns is not realizing how much my own mind was holding me back. And a lot of people are in that situation where I just want to know what to do. Just Just tell me the steps stuff I need to do, I'll get it done. I'm an action taker. And yet it doesn't quite. It's not the whole piece of the puzzle. So the tracking and awareness is great. But give us some more ideas underneath that as to not only finding your why, because I don't think there has to be too complicated to be honest. But especially the what hasn't worked piece of that.

Brian Gryn 08:31

Yeah, how you perceive yourself, I think it's important as well, I'll I'll just give an example. Like I had a client, who I talked to him every week, he would always portray himself as a, like a bad guy. Like he, you know, he was repeating this, like this fat funny guy, right. And this is how he's perceived himself. And I think that I'm not saying you have to do some whole psychological analysis on people. But I do think it's important these these little things that you say to yourself on a daily and weekly basis, they mean something, and they could affect how you're going about getting to where you want to go. Because if you're always portraying yourself, as that in your mind, consciously or unconsciously, this is going to take a toll over time. And that's not to say that everyone is like that. But I think it's important to be aware like this self awareness, I think, is is a good sort of first step and how you portray yourself is important. And

Philip Pape 09:27

what what is one of your favorite exercises or ways to reflect on that and learn about that self talk in the context of what we're going for here, which is, you know, fitness, specifically because we could open up a whole can of worms. I remember early in my career as an engineer, getting a career counselor who had me do one of those assessments, right, those personality assessments, and then you sort of do some other exercises that help you reflect on what you're good at what you're not what you like, what you don't like, and then you develop this sense of self awareness. Other training I've had over the years has to do with communicating with others and having emotional intelligence. So we're really talking about the self here, and the unconscious patterns and what's held us back. Also the self identity you mentioned, of identify as a fat guy or identify as you know, the class clown. I'm trying to unravel this, what's a very practical strategy someone can do today? who's listening to discover that for themselves?

Brian Gryn 10:24

Well, I would say that writing down like in a journal, I know not everyone loves doing that. I mean, I literally write in my journal every morning, and it takes me two and a half minutes, like I am waiting for my tea to boil. So you know, it's not like I'm sitting down, we're writing a novel. So I think, in that I write down I've self reflect, and I write down who I believe I am, like, I'm a winner. You know, I'm gonna have health and happiness, you know, certain things that just might be basic things, but like, you know, like, I've just not to go off, but I just watched a four part documentary on Conor McGregor. And, and yeah, and I can't say I'm like, the biggest McGregor fan. But you can, what you learn from that is his mindset from the start was, there was no doubt in his mind where he was going and been, who he, who he was, and who's going to become. And you see that? And I mean, obviously, his work ethic is second to none. And, you know, but like, there wasn't any doubt, you know, there wasn't any. And I'm not saying people can't have doubt and insecurity, I mean, that everyone has that. But I think that if you feed yourself with sort of that right mentality, that that winner mentality that you're going to get to where you want to go or who you who you want to be, I think that does play a role in you know, a lot of men don't necessarily and even women don't want to necessarily even go down that road. But I think, you know, if you write a few things down, I would say those would be write a few things down of who you believe you're going to be whether you're that person right now or not, I think that can take you far. And he had he has like three kids now. But his first son, every every time every scene with his son called him a champ, you know, and that that's going to work on the subconscious mind. And you know, I'm sure with him he made his kid might end up becoming a champ, who knows. But anyways, so that would be something that I would advise, I think that's

Philip Pape 12:14

great, man. I mean, people know who listened to me I'm not I personally am not a big journaler as a as a actual tool. But I do love it for a lot of people. And I also do what you're doing positive affirmations, whatever you want to call them, you can do them verbally. You do them when you talk and write to people, you do them on the podcast when you It's like how are you communicating? And you kind of check yourself, the more you do it, because it's a skill, like anything else, you develop that skill of saying, No, I'm an athlete, I'm a winner, I'm going to get bigger muscles, like I'm gonna take care of my kids, whatever. The thing is, it doesn't matter, but it's positive. It also reminds me of something in positive psychology called optimism bias. Some people have this inherently. And some people develop it, the idea of just being optimistic about everything, and not being afraid that the optimism is going to lead to disappointment, right? Because you're thinking, well, if I'm optimistic about everything, and it doesn't turn out to be true, won't I be disappointed? It actually doesn't seem to work that way. It seems to shift everything toward you now taking actions to make that happen. And sometimes you fail, and that's okay. But you're always pushing in that direction. Now we're getting philosophical, Brian, thanks for bringing that out.

Brian Gryn 13:20

I mean, I like I like talking about this part. Like I always bring everything like I said, back to golf. And you see that with golfers, good, bad, some of the greatest golfers, but the great ones, they think they already in their minds believe that they're, they're great. And there's no doubt they don't, you know, you hear a lot of people on the golf course say, Well, I suck at putting, and they say that to themselves. And they'll say it out loud, because I coach high school golf. And I tell them, I said, you know, as much as you think that's not harming you, it actually you're saying that to yourself every day? Like, is that really going to serve you? In the long term? It's not so

Philip Pape 13:53

true. Yeah. And I tell my clients all the time, you're an athlete, you know, even if they don't want to admit, admit it or accept it. And sometimes you need someone else to kind of push you toward that, like you said, with the golf example. Arnold Schwarzenegger is another great example that I mean, you watch his documentary, you see,

Brian Gryn 14:09

I love I love a three part series. And I think people do it. Some they don't realize they're doing it. Right. Right. They don't realize they're saying I suck at putting in until someone makes them aware of that. So I think that's where a coach or someone can come into play and say, Well, you realize you're saying that to yourself, like every time you go on the golf course. Well, yeah.

Philip Pape 14:28

And even to add to that, like, just statements you make in general, when they are framed in a moral moral way, like when we talk about food or just your week, you know, when I hear clients say, like, I did bad or I did a bad thing. It's like, no, no, this is a reframing opportunity, right? Like you made a choice. Something happened. That's data, let's learn from it. Let's move ahead. And this this week, you're going to be proactive and do something positive to shift it. Okay, so that's, that's the clarity piece. I don't know if you want to, you know, add anything else. I don't want to like robotically go to the next one. If we're not there yet. But we can. Number two,

Brian Gryn 15:02

no, no, that's fine. I mean, the only thing I would add is like understanding where you're at. And I'll say I've talked about this before meeting, like, set a baseline, like, okay, maybe, you know, like we talked about like, Well, we haven't talked about it, yes. But we want to talk about my podcast is like a DEXA scan, or like something where you just know where you're at, at this point in time. Because if you can just make, you know, I think getting small wins, which is the next sort of pillar, I like to talk about it, I call it like small changes, big results, where you try to get these small wins that sort of give you these big results. And I think it's important to get those wins Well, in order to get wins, I mean, you we all I think it's important to know where you're at now. So you can sort of understand like, Okay, well, I've improved in these areas. And

Philip Pape 15:45

I agree, I agree. Yeah, getting a baseline and having objective data and getting the wins and celebrating all all good stuff. People need to hear this. All right. So let's, let's move on to step two, which I think is stress, right? Yeah,

Brian Gryn 15:56

yeah, exactly. These aren't in any particular order. I mean, the clarity one sort of is, but these read, the rest of them aren't necessarily in any order, I think it depends on the person. So some people are very good at managing stress. So we don't necessarily need to touch on that. But if someone's not, this is definitely a pillar that's going to be you're gonna want to hit right away. Because stress is something that everyone has, it's just about managing it. And I think how to manage stress is maybe different for everybody. But I think if you can create quality routines around your life, I think that can help you manage it. So

Philip Pape 16:31

yeah, okay, so let's dig into some of what you mentioned, from a context perspective, because you said, you know, we can't reduce stress, we can only manage it. And I know what you mean, I did an episode recently, it was all about stress, and talking about chronic life stress. Now, there's so much out of your control. And as the stoics would say, like, who cares, let's just let's control we can so and of course, you can change your situation that's causing the stress and then reduce the stress. But most people are going through life with big things that are not easily changeable, you know, today or this week, like they have kids or you know, they have this this particular job or live in a certain place. So before we understand how to manage it, why is it so important? I mean, you know, I probably have talked about on this show many times, but from a weight management hormones well being like, what are the big reasons that we care about chronic stress on health?

Brian Gryn 17:21

Well, I mean, first of all, if you're in a fight or flight stress mode, like the majority of your time, you know, that's going to obviously raise cortisol. And cortisol is both can be a positive and a negative. And it sort of goes in a diet, diurnal state, like meeting diurnal rhythm throughout the day, right. So we'll have a little spike in cortisol in the morning. And then it should slowly taper off towards the evening. And I recently worked with a company called FDN, where we do like a saliva test. And we see these diurnal rhythms based on different individuals and where their stresses out throughout the day, sort of pretty cool in the morning, midday and evening. And then you have a sum from that a lot of times, if you go get blood work, it'll give you a sum. But I think what's important to understand is sort of that rhythm of cortisol and how it interacts throughout the day and goes up or down. But yeah, I mean, obviously, we're going to hold on to fat. And if our cortisol is our high, cortisol is high all day. And so we have to sort of manage that as best as possible. And I think, most importantly, understanding like, you need to have your own self care and take care of yourself, I think, especially the audience that I talked to is 40. Plus, a lot of times, you know, they're busy with their jobs and their kids, and they don't give time for themselves and self care. And you have to find time throughout the day for that, whether that's early in the morning, or later at night, whenever it is, I always tell people, you know, there's not a perfect time, but it's the time that you can do consistently for yourself, and whether that's 15 minutes first thing in the morning, or later on, I think that, you know, prioritizing that is really important. I

Philip Pape 19:04

agree. And I also know that that's an area that I'm always improving because people who are tend to be go getters also tend to prioritize, you know, getting stuff done over quote unquote, self care and quote unquote, stress. And there's also this misconception that you need to do some advanced mindfulness or meditation techniques or yoga or something like that. So let's let's dispel that and make it very simple and practical for people who are stressed and don't want to get stressed out by a stress relieving technique. What are like, what's the entry point? What's the stepladder to stress reduction techniques?

Brian Gryn 19:39

Well, I'll tell you that I am a yoga fan. But I don't necessarily think everyone is into yoga and I'm in a lot of my clients aren't. But I think if you can find like, I'll do five minute meditation in the morning. So if you can five, five minutes and start with that, I think that's a good place to start. And you can use an app, you can just sit In silence, I think that's not a bad place to start really, and and, you know, everyone, we can find five minutes. So I think that's a good place to start. I mean, I don't think it has to be anything groundbreaking. It doesn't have to be an hour class. But you know, nowadays, there's plenty of apps headspace, whatever the excetera, there's a lot of them that sort of can guide you through that, and at least give you just some time for yourself where you can just sit in your thoughts a little bit. Alright,

Philip Pape 20:25

so the way I worded the question, I always work my questions a little bit in a little bit of a leading fashion, sometimes unconsciously. But when I said advanced techniques like meditation, that's, that's a form of self talk or assumption that I'm using, right by saying it that way. And what you just said was, hey, stop making excuses, bro. Like, not just me, but everybody listening, it just takes five minutes, you can use an app, get it done, you just sit and be quiet. You know, in the morning, oftentimes, I go straight to my phone, I want to get all the notifications out of the way, right? Because it just annoys me.

Brian Gryn 20:54

I would say turn off your notifications. Yeah, well, I

Philip Pape 20:59

don't mean they wake me up. But you know, when you when I wake up, I check my email and stuff like that. But um, you know, not doing that, and just taking five minutes to just sit is great advice. Would you consider activities that you're already doing for other things health related, like strength training, walking to those still fall in the category of stress management? Or they have to be done a certain way to sort of count in that regard? No,

Brian Gryn 21:23

I would say that counts, for sure. I mean, yeah, there's no doubt that lifting is a stressor, but it also can help relieve stress as well. Right. So big irony there. Yeah. So I think it works both ways. You know, if you only have a certain amount of time in your day, you got to sort of prioritize, you know what you need most. And if you want to be efficient, and you got 20 minutes to 30 minutes, and you know, you'd rather not use some of that on meditation, then maybe you do something active going for a walk or or lifting.

Philip Pape 21:56

Last question about stress. You mentioned your, your journaling and your meditation. Do you ever have a time when the stress ramps up due to some acute activity that happens? Or you know, some situation happens, right? Or you see this with clients? And then is there can there be a go to activity or something you go to shortly thereafter to kind of bring that stress down?

Brian Gryn 22:18

Yeah, I mean, you're talking about something that can just be done anywhere, right? Like, you know, if you're in the car, or if you're somewhere, it's like, sometimes you just need like something to fall back on. And I actually had a gentleman, his name's Avi Greenberg. He's from New York, he works with individuals and coaches them on how to breathe, just breathe correctly, focus on that. And I did some sessions with him, actually, after I interviewed him. They were like, 45 minutes long. And we literally, it was like a zoom call based on breathing. You're like, oh, that doesn't sound but it was like at the end of the call, you know, I just felt like enlightened and less stress and everything. And I mean, so breathing is like this underrated thing that you can really dive deep into it. And I'm not saying you have to do like Wim Hof breathing, but you know, breathing in through your nose, even out through your mouth. I think, you know, nose breathing, obviously, is huge, becoming bigger and bigger now, like these mouth tape companies, but like, right, you know, you got your best filters in your nose. And so I think it's important to focus on that. But yeah, if you just need something go to, you know, is I would just say focusing on breath. Yeah,

Philip Pape 23:26

that's a good one. We did a session with So Alan, he's in our community did a an alternate nostril breathing session. Okay, that was very interesting because you get that flow through into one nostril out the other and it almost it's almost like a neti pot of air, so to speak. Yeah, flows through, it's very nice.

23:45

That's a Philippe and awfully for a long time. I don't know how passionate he is about healthy eating, and body strength. And that's why choosing to be my coach. I was no stranger to a dieting and body training. But I've always struggled to do it sustainably really helped me prioritize my goals with evidence based recommendations, or not over stressing my body and not feeling like I'm starving. In six months, I lost 45 pounds without drastically changing the foods I enjoy. But now I have a more balanced diet. I weight train consistently. And most importantly, I do it sustainably if a scientifically sound healthy diet and a Langstrom body is what you're looking for. Philip Pape is your guy.

Philip Pape 24:31

Alright, so then the next one, which is often tied together or related in many ways to that in terms of recovery is sleep. I think we know sleep is critical. Everyone emphasizes that point. And yet I still feel and I see with clients that it's extremely you know, we're under rested when it comes to sleep, both in terms of quantity and quality. And it affects a lot of things in our life. So tell us tell us more about that.

Brian Gryn 24:55

Yeah, I mean, sleep gosh, I mean, we could talk an hour on sleep as far as Improving and you know, insulin sensitivity, glucose metabolism, helping prevent weight gain. And one of the big things is also that can affect sleep, digestion. And I think sort of like, I like to try the action steps for people that sort of hit a lot of different things. And one of those things is making sure that you give yourself enough time to digest and you eat early enough in the day. And you're seeing studies come out like this chronal nutrition where if you've consumed most of your meals before a certain time, how that and you're in, you're allowed to digest the metabolize food earlier in the day, this can help on a number of fronts that I've already, you know, insulin sensitivity, but glucose metabolism, and just helping quality of sleep.

Philip Pape 25:44

I want to stay with that, because I feel like I've heard that three other times on podcasts just this week. And I want to emphasize it. Because Coincidentally, I had a big dinner with a group a couple of nights ago, and I posted like on social, some graphs of my, you know, my weight trend, but also my HRV and my resting heart rate. And, you know, it was like six 7pm It wasn't super late, but it was huge. It was huge. It was like a 2000 Calorie dinner. I mean, for me, that's, you know, pushing it. And so I slept through the night, but I didn't feel well rested, my HRV dropped, my resting heart rate went up, right. And it was like a significant variance from from the norm. And I posted that to show people like, here's the effect of eating too much close to dinner, because you're just digesting the heck out of it through the night. I've also heard protein, you know, almost like protein itself, because it takes more energy to digest, kind of shifting that earlier in the day, even though all those muscle heads are like no, I gotta get protein six times a day. Right? That and then the the drinking that drinking too close to bed. So I'm glad you bring that up. And I want people to hear this. Because that alone is kind of a simple change to impact sleep quality, what is your recommendation on that recommendation,

Brian Gryn 26:53

as far as like, I would say, establishing a time to cut off your eating window. You know, I used to be pretty big, like intermittent faster, I've cut back a little bit on that because I found I wasn't consuming enough or my like activity level and where I wanted to go get with goals within the in the weight room and, and things like that. So but one rule I've always stayed with was cutting off the time that I've done eating. Now I'm not saying I do this, like we were just on vacation. And you know, we did eat early, we're my wife. Luckily, my wife likes to eat early too. So we you know, we eat with the senior citizens around like 530 ish. And when families that have kids, so if you could cut off that and give yourself three to four hours to digest food, I think that can help quality of sleep. And we all know, sleeping will help with repair and muscle growth. And you know, obviously releasing growth hormones that aid and both of those things. So the biggest thing I would say first and foremost is picking a time for me. It's typically 630 to seven, I like to be done eating

Philip Pape 27:58

and drinking too. Or just just eating.

Brian Gryn 28:00

I'll drink. Maybe, you know, I used to be big into tea later. But I found that I was that was getting me up because I was keying a lot. Yeah. So I would say ideally, both would be great. Occasionally I'll have like, I don't know, carbonated water. You know, maybe I might have something a little bit later on. But I tried not drinking as well. I think that yeah, yeah, both would be great.

Philip Pape 28:22

I think that's a great technique. And I'm glad you know, just like you when you have guests on like it's almost like a selfish, like a coaching call away. Because I'm getting all these techniques and thinking about my own routine. And I don't know how many people listening are are snacking close to bed. And, you know, besides the whether or not that serves your goals or not like for me, I can eat a lot because I'm building muscle. And so sometimes I just don't have enough food, even when I'm done with dinner, and I just eat at like 8pm and then I go to bed at 930. And it's like, I'm used to that, because it's not a lot. But then I wonder if I just experiment with, you know, stop at seven after dinner and do that for a week and see what happens. You know, it's good advice. It's

Brian Gryn 29:01

a great rule of thumb, honestly, it's probably one of my top ones out of everything. I

Philip Pape 29:06

love it. Okay, that's a really good tip. Okay, so what would on nutrition, we've touched on it a little bit. You and I talked about it a lot last time and your podcast is kind of, you know, predicated on that given the title, but let's go with your principles and your philosophy overall, just so the audience knows where you're coming from. Yeah, so I mean, I know it's a loaded.

Brian Gryn 29:27

zealot. Ya know, I mean, I think my principles have like, changed through the years. I was low carb for a while, a little bit like you, I think, right? You went through sort of different stages of trying different things. But I think first and foremost is sort of, for every individual. It's like a sort of a self experimentation stage for everybody to try different ways of eating and sort of finding what works. I think it's important because you're going to hear different opinions about a balanced view about a carnivore about, you know, a vegetarian. And I think for For me, it's it's changed. I'm trying to consume more now. And I think that comes back to saying, Okay, well, let's track, right, let's understand what we're eating and how much we're eating. And then from there, just figuring out what works like one of the things I've used for myself and realized is my second meal a day, I find I don't, I don't need much, you know, like, I'll have a decent breakfast, which I used to not have. And I don't have that like, first thing, but let's say 910 o'clock, decent amount of protein, maybe some fruit, yogurt, something like that. And then my second meal, I find that I don't need as much. And then my third meal is maybe a touch on that is like the main meal. But I'm having that earlier, so I have time to digest it. And that is, that's what what has worked for me. So for most clients, I don't try to push one way or the other as far as like a certain style of eating, I think it's important to, you know, I know you're big into sort of this flexible eating, where it's not necessarily about being perfect, but it's just about being sustainable for the long term. And, you know, you're seeing a lot of like carnivore, this carnivore craze come. And I think a lot of these, quote, unquote, like diets work for a lot of people, because one, it's taking them off sort of that standard American diet and getting them away from a lot of foods and ultra processed things that aren't serving them very well. And going to more of a whole foods diet where it's creating satiety, which I think is really important. I had Marty Kendall, I don't know, if he's been on your podcast, Marty Kendall, he does a lot of great writing around satiety, and how if you can sort of lead with that, I think that can really help sort of balance your day and make it so you don't have to feel like you're over consuming. And you know, getting your arms around satiety is not easy. But you know, for most people in a lot of times, that's obviously prioritizing protein. But there are a lot certain carbs, even like potato that are have been shown to be highly satisfying, and sort of keep you from snacking all throughout the day. And so leading with that, I think it's really important and wrapping your arms around satiety is a good sort of place to start.

Philip Pape 32:12

Yeah, I mean, in the intro, I said, we're kindred spirits, there's definitely a lot of this we agree on. Because we're agreeing on principles. We're not we're not, you know, dicking around with specific protocols, because there is no specific protocol for any anybody is individual. And the idea of self experimentation. You know, I had never thought of the fact that all the diets I had tried and you know, my clients tried and women try 120 diets in their life, on average, something like that, really. It's huge. It's vastly more than what men cycled through just, from what I've understood, we can now reframe those as positive experiences that taught us about ourselves. I like that, right? I have a lot of clients now coming off of carnivores, I'm gonna call it who, who said, Look, I liked all the food, and I love to eat meat and eggs, and you know, butter, I felt great after I switched to it. And I got some decent results. But I just couldn't stick with it. And that's, and that was the big sticking point was the sustainability piece. And you'll you'll see all these arguments about some of these diets like Well, no, you know, all the short term, blood markers and health markers all great or better, or this and that. And it's kind of taken out of context, like you said, with what Bill, you're changing about 50 variables when you switch from the standard American diet to any other diet. So let's pick the best thing that works for us. satiety also, totally agree that that is huge, especially during especially during fat loss, right, when you have less calories to make it easier. But even when you're not, you can get hungry even when you're building, right. And satiety leads to like you said, choosing protein, choosing fiber choosing, you know, nutrient dense foods anyway, I'm just commenting all the stuff you said because it's good. Well, and

Brian Gryn 33:51

you know, one thing I'll say that when I was doing some more fasting, what it taught me to understand about my body was like true hunger. What that was, because what I've noticed, going back to consuming more and eating Lexus 83 whole meals is I'm craving more, which not necessarily a bad thing. But when you do do bouts of fasting, you sort of I think you sort of get in tune with your hunger cues. And, like, understand that, like a lot of times your body's just going to creature you're a creature of habit, right? So if you're used to eating at these times, your body's going to give you these cues to eat then I think sometimes it's good to just mix it up and just say okay, what would happen if I just skip a meal? And how to how would I feel and like just understanding and being more self aware of like your hunger as opposed to just being okay, I'm just going to eat the second I get like this urge to eat and you just sort of lose in touch of of what really is. What really is hunger and what's just sort of your body being used to eating all day long.

Philip Pape 34:52

Yeah, and I wonder how long it takes to get to true hunger because I've never done more than like a day and a half fast. Have you done Unlike three day fast,

Brian Gryn 35:01

you know, I was never Yeah, never a big long term one. But yes, something like you i At times I did like a day and a half to two in that range never really much more than that. And, you know, I don't necessarily advise it for most people, but just at least if you have never done it, at least sort of give yourself some space between meals, I think it's important unless you're like, you're really in a building mode, and you want to eat like six times a day. But if you're not, you know, giving yourself space between meals, and then I like to call it like, like, almost like bumper, like, you know, what is it bumper bowling where you get the, on each side of that? Sure. Yeah, yeah. So there's Yeah, yeah, was it? Yeah, bowling with bumpers, it's just eating with bumpers, right. Don't eat too close to bedtime, and don't eat the second you get up. Like, I like to start with those sort of like just rules of thumb right off the bat. And then you can sort of adjust it as you as you go.

Philip Pape 35:56

I mean, that's another good tip in there is to schedule your schedule your meals, at least come up with a routine and have those, you know, quote, unquote, we call them rules, but they're really just your own guidelines at work for you. You mentioned with the fast what was I going to say there? Oh, what just a funny thing that came to mind. Like, a colonoscopy is like a forest one day fast to prepare for it. So take advantage of that if you're over 40. And, or actually, I guess it's 50. But I've had mine earlier. But anyway, the fasting, I heard something recently about how a lot of us, myself included, when I've done these one day fast, it's been a long time, I can't even imagine doing them anymore. But I used to do them regularly, like once a week, where you get this set, you get a little bit of hunger. That's not kind of you realize it's not real hunger, right? Your body says, Okay, you're not feeding me turns off the hunger signals. And then you get this sort of clarity, this interesting clarity that you get. No, I did hear something recently that they've studied that phenomenon and found that that part of that is, is pure perception. It's like a pure mental thing. Really. Which is interesting. Which I guess it doesn't matter. Right? If you perceive it that way, it is that way for you. But But anyway, I just I'm going off on a tangent because there you can learn a lot from fasting as what you're saying about not only hunger, but other things, too, about your yourself, including what do you do with yourself when you're not constantly eating? Right?

Brian Gryn 37:14

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You don't realize how much it takes up of your of your day. But yeah, I mean, I think it's a good tool. Right? I think it's a tool. You know, for example, I just came back from traveling, we were on the plane, didn't really want to eat my plane food or airport food. So you know what, it's a decent time to do a little bit of fasting. Nothing crazy. But you know, I think if you can sort of look at and find times where you're going to be around food that's not going to serve, you can use those times as as good sort of testing times to the fast a little bit. That's

Philip Pape 37:46

a great point. Yeah, yeah. If anybody is used to getting into that flow state where you're working, and you just time goes by, you can go hours and hours and hours without eating and not being hungry. And you realize it is it's more of a habitual thing than a real hormonal thing. Is there any anything else about nutrition? You know, because again, a lot of what we're gonna say, the audience has probably heard from me too, but myths or hot topics or anything going on these days? It's like top of mind that you wanted to share? Yeah,

Brian Gryn 38:16

I mean, there's a lot of I guess there's a lot of myths. Probably that been debunked eventually. But you know, I think there was a recent one regarding protein distribution throughout the day. Oh, yeah. The 100 grams study? Yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you've touched on that. I haven't yet.

Philip Pape 38:31

I mean, not on the show itself. It's a good one. Did you want to talk about it? You know, it's

Brian Gryn 38:36

funny, I was just looking through it. I probably don't know enough to sort of comment on it. But to the listeners. Yeah. There was a recent study done on what was it testing, like, protein distribution throughout the day, and whether it matters, you know, if you have a certain amount for each meal, right, right. It measured I believe, like, 25 grams versus, like, 100 grams. Yeah. versus zero. Yeah. versus zero. Yeah. So I can't say I'll comment too much about it, because I haven't gone through it all. But what I think the conclusion was, was the fact that you can consume more protein than you think and your body will will be able to handle it. And not necessarily just like, not absorb, I guess, I don't know. I I have to look a little bit more into it. Did you? Yeah, I did.

Philip Pape 39:20

I didn't want to take away your thunder. But since you brought it up, we might as well like I actually coincidentally went to a live training that Bill Campbell did last night. Oh, his body by Science Review that his subscribers get access to these things. And he talks about the exact things if I hadn't seen that I know less about it. What they found is from zero to 25 grams, you get like 25% more muscle synthesis from 25 to 100 grams, you get another 30%. And so there's no upper limit is what they've what they've determined to how much protein you have in one bolus in one meal. And the postprandial, as they call it muscle protein synthesis simply extends longer and longer, the more protein you have, that's That's it. And past studies that looked at like 20 and 40 grams, actually were in line with this. It's just that they were kind of misinterpreted. And some of the studies didn't look past like a couple hour window. So we didn't know. But yeah, so the conclusion is like getting your total protein and how you distributed almost doesn't matter.

Brian Gryn 40:19

Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, for people who, and that not to say that I'm a big fan of like, one or two meals a day, for some people it works, they can consume a decent amount of protein, and their body will be able to utilize utilize it as opposed to thinking they have to eat it six times a day, or four times, four times a day was sort of, I think, with some of the protein experts out there, I think that was like, sort of the ideal amount of meals for growth.

Philip Pape 40:48

I mean, if you if I went back in time a year ago, that's what I would have been saying, like, now you got to eat maybe four or five times a day to get the optimum, you know, right? Not really not really. That's a great example he brought up of the science just evolving, and the evidence can, you know, taking us in the right direction, it's good. So the next one on your list of the six, six principles, we're up to number five now is meal timing, which is I look at that good segue, we were talking about time. So I mean, meal timing can influence a lot of things. But I also wonder if some people, you know, put it above other things that are more important, like getting total protein, but what are your thoughts on meal timing? Why is it important, and so on? Well,

Brian Gryn 41:28

I think one of the things I we talked touched on it a little bit is the fact that we're more insulin sensitive early in the day, and our muscles, which means our muscles are better able to absorb and utilize glucose, as opposed to later in the day where we become less and less insulin sensitive. So I think that's an important thing to understand. I mean, I don't think it's like the end all and if you have to eat if you're working all day, and you have to eat later, you know, it is what it is. But I think it's another sort of tool that if there's a day where you feel like you're going to have a bigger meal, perhaps you have that meal earlier on, because your body is more insulin sensitive, as opposed to eating that later on in the day. But again, I don't necessarily think it's like the end all. But it's interesting research that that is around eating later versus earlier in the day. Okay, that's

Philip Pape 42:18

good to know. And that's related to cortisol right and related to. So now we're also talking about carbon take is your general recommendation, again, knowing that this is maybe not a huge thing that moves the needle, just to shift your carbs earlier in the day. Yeah,

Brian Gryn 42:33

I think if you're going to Yeah, if you're going to eat, especially if you're going to like simple carbs, or sweets, you know, you're better off eating them in the morning or early afternoon, when you are more insulin sensitive than then late at night. So I don't think and I'm not necessarily anti carb, but I think if you could just focus your carbs on, you know, like fruits, vegetables, maybe, you know, boiled potatoes or something like that, I think, or even, you know, rice from white rice from time to time, I think, you know, that's a good way to go about it, as opposed to like, the breads and the pastas and the pastries, you know, and if you're going to have those have it earlier on. So have breakfast in the morning. But you know, again, from that standpoint, I you know, I had like Dr. Don layman on and he talked about the importance of getting that, that first meal to have a high protein meal. So, again, we all know that protein is important. And if you can start the day with a higher protein meal, but also, you know, if you're going to have carbs, I probably have them in the middle of the day. Not too late. Yeah,

Philip Pape 43:35

I'm not going to show you my food logs, man. You're gonna see a lot of carbs in there.

Brian Gryn 43:42

No, I'm not anti carb.

Philip Pape 43:44

I know. Some of the foods you mentioned though. Yeah, I like all the carbs. Let's just put it that way. Just every type is a friend of mine. Oh, okay. You know, other than you know added sugars I'm not a huge fan of if you can keep those those down a bit. But there's also a workout and training window aspect is that when you go into that as well in your in your book about meal timing that for training? Well, I

Brian Gryn 44:09

would say that unless like you're trying to train or your bodybuilding and for competition, I think the best time to workout is that what works for you? I don't I don't think there's a perfect time. I mean, I was just on vacation. I worked out mornings in the mornings that because before the day got going, because I wanted to get it done. And you know, my wife was sleeping so I just got it done then and I was in a fasted state and the workouts were you know, we're solid, you know when when my normal routine is, is middle of the day workouts, but again, whatever works, whatever is sustainable for the long term, but as far as working out, I think it's easy to get caught up in this all these details around the perfect time to workout but I think it's the time that's that's most consistent.

Philip Pape 44:54

Yeah, I would agree and it might change you know, as your schedule changes. I used to work out in the middle of the day as well. Now workout in the morning. And it's funny because I'll hear arguments four different times a day. And even those don't agree like, well workout at night because you get a little boost in performance, you know, because you're, I don't know why. But you know, you've been up your cortisol curve has dropped a bit, you're well fed, whatever the reason. But then other research that says, Well, if you do it in the morning, there's these huge mental health benefits that actually translate to the rest of the day and better nutrient utilization, and then it ends up making you perform just as well. Like, just do what works for you. That's where we get into the minutiae going back to your opening, right? Yeah,

Brian Gryn 45:34

yeah, yeah, by the time that works, and even if it's a short micro workout, I talk about micro workouts all the time, I think, you know, you know, something's better than nothing. And I don't think you need to be in the gym for an hour and a half. Yeah,

Philip Pape 45:48

something's better than nothing. Well, so that segues to the last step, which is your activity upgrade you call it, which is an interesting term I want you to explain, but then we can get into micro workouts and effective training. And, you know, for the older guys, to what what this all means. Yeah,

Brian Gryn 46:03

you know, one of the things I found through like COVID was creative ways to to get the workout done. And, you know, in your basement or in your home, because every one wasn't going anywhere. And so I think that these micro workouts sort of became started to get popular then, and I've had him on my podcast podcast a few times, Dr. Jake wish, he has this x three bar, which is cool, like I got really into the x three, over COVID. Now I do it from time to time, it's not every workout, I do like traditional lifting as well. But one of the things I learned from doing that is, gosh, I would do, you know, short sort of upper body workouts and lower body workouts, I sort of split it like that. And, and they weren't long workouts, but I found that I was building muscle. And one of the things that I learned was also using resistance bands was a little bit easier on the joints. And so I've implemented that with a lot of the 40 plus year old individuals that I work with, because, you know, I don't think everyone's meant to like necessarily, not everyone's meant to like benchpress, I don't think I think especially as you get older, you know, might be tough on the shoulders, the joints. And if you can find a better way to maybe utilize different tools in the weight room to help with joint integrity, I think, you know, resistance bands is something that I never used to use. And now I use it from time to time. And it's it's effective.

Philip Pape 47:26

And that this is consistent with your principle of the whole theme of the show, which is, if you're not going to go into the gym and do a benchpress, you might as well do something that's just about as effective. That's not a benchpress like it's the zero versus doing it. And the shoulders and all these other connective tissues. People can you know, people have issues with those, and they have surgeries, and maybe they may have an injury or whatever, I've had shoulder surgery, and I'm seeing how that affects different things. And you can get creative, you get different grips and bars and whatnot. But right? I do, I used to be a little more dogmatic about dogmatic myself, and like you said, there's many ways to Rome and many roads to Rome, so to speak with this, you call it an activity upgrade. So tell me about that.

Brian Gryn 48:09

I call it an activity upgrade. I guess that depends on the individual. Okay. But if this is some of that's coming from not doing much at all, obviously any activity or work, you know, it'll it'll help. You know, I think that if it's someone that's more experienced, then it's then it's wrapping your arms around, you know, building muscle as you get older, which obviously can be more difficult, but I'm sure with you, you see with your clients, and Andy Baker, who I've had on my podcast talks about being really you can build muscle, no matter I mean, he has I know, he's got some clients that are really up there. And they're, you know, deadlifting and doing things that most 20 year olds can't do. So I think it depends on the goal of the individual, but the upgrade is finding a way to get the time efficient workout in. So it sort of takes the excuses out. And that's one of the reasons why I like you know, some type of like 20 minute workout that that we can establish. So we'll try to build a routine in 20 minutes. And you know, they have to be efficient. And it's maybe not like they're not like training to be a bodybuilder, but they're just training to find a way to stay consistent, and still build muscle in a short period of time.

Philip Pape 49:15

I love it, man. So to two things came to mind now that you brought this up. One is the idea of the short workouts, I think, I don't know if it was when I was talking to Dr. Eric helms or who it was, but the question often comes up what can I split my workouts for example, like what if I do do want to do an hour long, full body workout, but I just don't have the time? And maybe I have a home gym? Because it's harder. You don't want to like drive to a gym twice a day usually? And the answer is not only Yes, but a maybe it is slightly more effective to split your split, split them up because you have been in recovery and you can go all go all out in that second session. Whereas if it was on the second half of the first session, you'd be fatigued. And so I wanted to point that out. It's it's it's great advice from a efficiency and performance perspective, but then also the time efficient work. Coutts, Brian Borstein is coming on. And he's a huge fan of intensity techniques. And when he talked about upgrading your activity, I thought, Oh, that's good way to think about, like always improving and personal growth, even if you are an intermediate lifter, who does all those moves, and you just want to keep getting better. And you want to save time, what can you do, right, and so like the mile reps, and the drop sets, and all that fun stuff comes into play. The point is, listen to what Brian's saying here. And like, Don't make excuses, there is something that will work for you, whatever level you're starting from. So I love your message on that. Yeah.

Brian Gryn 50:32

And I mean, as far as improving, one of the things I've been doing a little bit more, which I never used to do is log my workouts. And we talked about that maybe on my podcast, and you know, you can use an app, or you can write it in a journal, but I think logging helps it sort of understand sort of where you're at, I never used to do that. But then like, the next time you go into the gym, even if you increase it by a little bit, two and a half pounds, I know you can also increase it other ways, right? By by rep range and things like that. But just finding that variable that you want to increase. And I think it helps get you into, like a healthy habit of just creating those wins when we talked about right, like it makes you feel a bit Oh, last time I did 185 10 times. And now I just did 190 for 10 times, you know, and so I think those creating those small wins, helps motivation and helps you coming back and sort of get you going to stay consistent and you know, improve every time. And people

Philip Pape 51:29

need to hear that I still get questions like, Oh, should I log my workouts and I'm flabbergasted right? Because I just assume that you're gonna log your workouts. But I guess when you go back in time, and think you know, when you're in your 20s, going to the gym and just say I'm gonna do upper body today. And next time I'm going to do lower body and say you weren't logging, you're missing out on a huge opportunity for tracking your and measuring your outcome, like you said, and then improving, getting the win getting motivated. Hey, look, I'm looking 10 more pounds. I really want to go to the gym again to get another five pounds. Good stuff, man. All right, we're wrapping out on time here. So I do like to ask a question of all guests. And that is because we did go through your six pillars, your six principles. What one question Did you wish I had asked, and what is your answer?

Brian Gryn 52:10

Well, how about this? I asked everyone on my podcast, what one tip would you give that individual who's looking to get their body back or her mind potentially what it once was 1520 years ago, or 10 years ago. So I mean, I for me, I think a big habit that's really influenced my life, in the most positive manner is daily walks. So simple, everyone, for the most part can do it. And I think it's a great way to get out in nature, maybe get some sun if you're not in Chicago, and you're somewhere else where the sun actually comes out. But you still get sun even with the clouds, right? And we talk about your sort of diurnal rhythms throughout the day. You know, cortisol is one thing that, you know, sort of starts higher in the morning, and then slowly drifted towards night. And I think getting up in the morning can help that, and also help you with quality sleep. So morning walks, I love if you can't, if the morning doesn't work, I always say your best bet next after that is walking after meals and help with blood sugar regulation and help with digestion. And it's just yeah, I mean, it's just something I have two dogs, so I'm sort of forced into that. But even when I go on vacation, I still do it. And it just got me into that habit of doing it getting up and going putting on your gym shoes. And so I like to find things that are that are sort of excuse proof. And and do them.

Philip Pape 53:34

I love it. Yeah. And you even opened up the excuse people make about, like, if it's cold or whatever, embrace it, I hate Right. Like if people ask me that they say, What do you do when it's cold or rainy day? I said, Well, why? What does that mean? You can't walk just because it's cooler, throw on a nice big coat, you know, enjoy the freshness of it all and the smell the rain or whatever, you know, like find a positive way to do that. If not, you're gonna be walking around your house a lot. And that that'll that'll do the job too, I guess.

Brian Gryn 54:00

I mean, yeah, I guess that's, that would be a second. So I'm looking right now, I'm going to take my dogs out after this. And I'm looking at it, it's raining. But you know, we go most of the time the dogs don't mind unless it's like really cold. And then and then their paws can't last last long time because of the assault and all that. But like, I mean, it's 40 and raining. You know, you put some layers on you put a hood on and you go and you can happen. I think it's and I think just goes back to just the positive like putting in positive habits and creating that positive momentum for the day small wins. And like I was just reading limitless Jim quick. And they he just talks about even just like making your bed first thing in the morning. Like okay, you just did something right like that. It's creating momentum in a positive manner. Because, you know, I talk about this and there's another great book called and I'm drawing a blank but time will either expose you or or be on your side. And so it could be On your side if you if you start doing positive things that that'll that'll serve you and your health,

Philip Pape 55:04

we'll leave it on that message. It's a great message, Brian. I had a lot of fun talking with you today. And I want listeners to be able to find you. So tell us where they can learn more about you and your

Brian Gryn 55:14

work best place. It's just Brian green.com, sort of the hub for everything. And yeah, I'm on Instagram at my handle has changed a bit, but it's Brian, underscore Men's Health is by Instagram handle. And, yeah, you can find everything stepladder system, my book, it's all there, both in PDF and in self cover. Yeah,

Philip Pape 55:36

and I encourage everyone to check those out. I'll throw those in the show notes, Brian green.com. Or at Brian underscore Men's Health and I'll even include the link directly to the stepladder system. Make it easy for folks. And of course your podcast. Get Lean eat clean. I'll make sure the link is right and let people know. Thanks again for coming on, man Bill. Thanks for having me. I loved it. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights, please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong

Philip Pape 3/12/24 Philip Pape 3/12/24

Ep 154: Stop Medical Gaslighting Against Women (How to Self-Advocate for Your Health)

Have you ever felt dismissed by a healthcare professional when discussing your symptoms? What strategies can women use to advocate for themselves in the face of gaslighting? We two women from the Wits & Weights community, Elizabeth and Brienne, who have firsthand experience with medical gaslighting and will share their stories. Liz, a medical professional herself, will share her journey of fighting for a hypothyroidism diagnosis at a young age when doctors didn't believe it was possible. And Bree will detail her decade-long battle with mysterious symptoms before finally getting to the root of her hormone issues. They also talk about the incredible resilience and self-advocacy of women like Liz and Bree, who had to fight for the care they deserved.

Have you ever felt dismissed by a healthcare professional when discussing your symptoms? What strategies can women use to advocate for themselves in the face of gaslighting?

WARNING: This episode may contain discussions of medical trauma, sexual assault, and gaslighting within the healthcare system. If you're sensitive to these topics or feeling vulnerable, please listen with care, or feel free to skip this episode.

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) invited two women from the Wits & Weights community, Elizabeth and Brienne, who have firsthand experience with medical gaslighting and will share their stories. Liz, a medical professional herself, will share her journey of fighting for a hypothyroidism diagnosis at a young age when doctors didn't believe it was possible. And Bree will detail her decade-long battle with mysterious symptoms before finally getting to the root of her hormone issues. They also talk about the incredible resilience and self-advocacy of women like Liz and Bree, who had to fight for the care they deserved.

If you've ever had a doctor make you doubt your own reality, if you've ever been made to feel like your pain wasn't real or your concerns weren't valid, this episode is for you. As a nutrition coach, Philip supports everyone's complete agency and advocacy of their health.

If you ARE a healthcare provider, we hope this conversation will be a call to action to ensure you're listening to, hearing, and validating what your patients are telling you. It's time for women to be heard, believed, and properly cared for the way we all want to be.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

4:14 How they found the Wits & Weights community
7:03 Elizabeth's story of hypothyroidism at a young age
12:44 Brienne's decade-long journey before hormone issues were identified
16:30 The emotional toll of having health concerns repeatedly dismissed
26:17 Strategies for self-advocacy and pushing for proper testing/diagnosis
29:01 Red flags and signs that a patient is being medically gaslit
38:12 Advice for listeners facing similar struggles with being heard by doctors
43:36 Thoughts on holistic and functional doctors (alternative / complementary medicine)
48:15 The power of sharing stories to validate others and spark change
55:45 How to connect with Liz and Brienne
56:15 Outro

Episode resources:

Brienne on IG – @ModernMountainHomestead
Liz on IG – @fitnurseliz3

Episode summary:

In the realm of healthcare, women have historically faced an uphill battle when it comes to receiving accurate diagnoses and treatment. Our latest podcast episode dives deep into the personal narratives of two women, Liz and Bree, who have each navigated the complexities of the healthcare system and emerged as powerful advocates for themselves and others.

Liz's journey began as a tenacious medical professional fighting to validate her hypothyroidism diagnosis. She encountered dismissive doctors who were reluctant to listen to her concerns, a story that is all too common for many women seeking medical care. Despite the hurdles, Liz's perseverance led to a diagnosis that enabled her to take control of her health and well-being.

Bree, with her passion for research, encountered similar challenges. For years, she battled to unravel the truth behind her hormone issues, facing medical professionals who minimized her symptoms and concerns. It took a decade-long battle for Bree to find the answers she needed, demonstrating the critical importance of self-advocacy in the face of medical dismissal.

These candid tales highlight the need for a healthcare system that is responsive and respectful to the needs of patients, particularly women who are often underrepresented and unheard. The episode discusses the systemic biases that contribute to medical gaslighting and the detrimental effects it has on patients' trust in the medical system. It serves as a powerful reminder that individuals must trust their intuition and persist in their pursuit of accurate healthcare.

Moreover, the episode addresses the irony of a system where doctors are compensated regardless of patient outcomes, prompting a critical examination of the patient-doctor dynamic. Through Liz and Bree’s experiences, we learn about recognizing red flags and navigating medical advocacy, equipping listeners with the knowledge to make informed healthcare decisions.

The podcast also explores holistic healthcare, including personal anecdotes about breaking away from conventional treatments in pursuit of wellness. This episode is not only a call to action for patients to become more engaged in their healthcare journey but also a beacon for healthcare providers to refine their approach to patient care.

As the discussion wraps up, it underscores the transformative journey of self-improvement and health as we age. The stories shared are a testament to the fact that feeling better in our 40s than in previous decades is not only possible but achievable through advocacy, determination, and a willingness to explore all avenues of health and well-being.

In conclusion, this episode of our podcast serves as an inspiring guide for anyone seeking to overcome the challenges of medical gaslighting and advocate for their health. It is a compelling narrative of resilience, empowerment, and the relentless pursuit of better health that resonates with anyone who has ever felt sidelined by the healthcare system.

By sharing these stories, we hope to foster a community of informed and empowered individuals who can confidently navigate the healthcare maze and advocate for the care they deserve. We invite our listeners to join us on this journey toward a more responsive, patient-centered healthcare experience.

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Get notified of new episodes. Use your favorite podcast platform or one of the buttons below. Then hit “Subscribe” or “Follow” and you’re good to go!

Transcript

Liz 00:00

The trick is finding someone who will also listen and take your, you know, personal suggestion of this is what I'm finding, and this is the homework I've done and can't we just try it? And sometimes they say yes, and so you're like, but were those other times still valid like whereas I still gaslit yesterday but today you're appropriate it's it can be really such a mind game,

Brienne 00:20

I really feel like that's how it should work with medical professionals is that it really should be a collaborative experience because they have a lot of knowledge and expertise and things they can bring to the table and they kind of hold the keys to the gate when it comes to a lot of the testing and prescriptions and a lot of these other things that you want to have access to in order to have this you know, elevated sense of wellness. It should be collaborative, because it's still my body.

Philip Pape 00:43

Welcome to the Wits & Weights podcast. I'm your host, Philip pape, and this twice a week podcast is dedicated to helping you achieve physical self mastery by getting stronger. Optimizing your nutrition and upgrading your body composition will uncover science backed strategies for movement, metabolism, muscle and mindset with a skeptical eye on the fitness industry so you can look and feel your absolute best. Let's dive right in. Before we start the episode, a quick disclaimer this episode may contain discussions of medical trauma, sexual assault and gaslighting within the healthcare system. We'll be talking about experiences of having serious medical issues dismissed or misdiagnosed by doctors and the long term impacts this has had on the well being of our guests. If you're sensitive to these topics, or feeling vulnerable, please listen with care or feel free to skip this episode. As always, if you're struggling with your physical or mental health, please reach out for support from a trusted friend, family member or qualified professional Wits & Weights community Welcome to another very special episode of the Wits & Weights Podcast. Today we'll be tackling a surprisingly common but extremely overlooked issue related to your health and fitness, the epidemic of medical gaslighting against women. Now far too many women, many of my own life that I've heard from have had their symptoms dismissed their concerns minimized and their intuition about their own bodies disregarded by the very professionals they turn to for help. This is what we mean by gaslighting, which is basically just not believing what someone says, and maybe trying to convince them they're crazy or ignorant or uneducated or misinformed. And the consequences of this gaslighting can be profound, leading to delay diagnoses, worsening health, and a very deep erosion of trust in the medical system and doctors in general. So today, I'm very excited to have invited on two women from our community, Elizabeth and Brianne, who have first hand experience with medical gaslighting, and will share their stories. Liz is a medical professional herself, she's going to share her journey of fighting for a hypothyroidism diagnosis at a young age when doctors didn't believe it was possible for that before. And Bree will detail her decade long battle with mysterious symptoms before finally getting to the root of her hormone issues. So through these experiences, we'll examine the I'll say insidious, disturbing and unbelievable, very unbelievable often ways that gaslighting can manifest in healthcare, the systemic biases that allow it to persist, and the toll it takes on women's physical and emotional well being. But it's not all negative. We're going to talk about the incredible resilience, self advocacy of women like Liz and Bree, who fought and fought and fought for the care they deserved. So if you've ever had a doctor make you doubt your own reality, if you've ever been made to feel like your pain wasn't real, or your concerns weren't valid, this episode is for you. I am not a health care provider. But as a nutrition coach, I want everyone listening to have complete agency and advocacy over their health. And I figured inviting a couple amazing women on to do it would be a better way to put that across them than me saying it. And if you're listening and you are a health care provider, we hope this conversation will be a call to action to ensure you're listening to hearing and validating what your patients are telling you. It's time for women to be heard, believed and properly cared for the way we all want to be. Now, let's meet and hear the women of the hour. Liz and Bree, welcome to the show. Ladies.

Liz 04:11

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Philip Pape 04:14

So I want to start off on a light note. Let's start with you, Liz No, no particular order. I just want to know how you found our community. And you know what, why, why you're here today.

Liz 04:23

So I love podcasts. I have a wide prep plethora of podcasts that I listened to, and I was looking for something that would help me level up my nutrition and, you know, weight training and different information. And I love the evidence based perspective. I'm sort of a dork in that region. And so I want the real rationale behind things. And so I happen upon your podcast and yeah, no looking back now.

Philip Pape 04:50

I love it. Yeah. And I seem to attract you know, curious people like you just are trying to figure it out and cut through all the noise out there which is just there's a lot of it right? a dork that appeals to beat dork nerd geek. I'll put me in those categories.

Liz 05:04

I'm okay with it.

Philip Pape 05:06

And same question to you, Bree. How did you find our community?

Brienne 05:09

I'm glad to know I'm in nerd nerd territory i That's, that's my jam. Like all good podcasts love stories, they found your podcast through a podcast, or you are a guest on Karen Martel's podcast, which is called the hormone solution. Now it used to be called something else. Yeah. And I had found her podcast through searching for answers and a myriad of health issues that I wasn't getting answers to, in the way that I had hoped. And so when looking for my own information came across hers. And she had gotten kind of down the rabbit hole on a lot of her episodes, and then came across one where she had you on. And immediately it was, it kind of clicked for me because the idea of being evidence based not evidence bound, that's 100%, my jam and where I like to live I my research and data nerd. So that was very intriguing to me. And I knew that she was going on to your podcast as well. So it kind of followed my way on over there. And very quickly found like this was like, this was a good community. This was something that I could connect to, it felt very, very welcoming to be in a space that was based off of research and data and not bound to the party line, so to speak of the fitness and health world. Awesome.

Philip Pape 06:15

Yeah, no, it's amazing. Yeah. Karen, Karen is great, too, by the way, and I know a lot of people kind of we found each other, or people found each other through that show. So we hooked up again recently. And then you and I had a call. It was a while back was probably like early 2023. Right? Something like that.

Brienne 06:29

Yeah, I wouldn't say it was like summer fall of 2023. Yeah.

Philip Pape 06:35

Okay, yeah. No, I can't I can't keep track of time. Okay, cool. So now that everyone's met you, we're gonna get into a little bit of gaslighting and stuff and what it looks like because I think I'm sure people are listening. Some folks are very experienced with what this means whether it's women or men or men supporting women. Others may be like, What is this? Because when we brought up the topic, I know I had a few people say, What are you talking about? What do you mean by gaslighting? And I think it happens a lot of people even when they don't have a term for it. So let's let's again, start with Liz, your your experience, right? Can you just share an overview of this experience with hypothyroidism, maybe how the doctors didn't initially believe it could be happening at your age, and we'll go from there. Yeah, so

Liz 07:17

I was about eight years old, when I suddenly gained 20 pounds in the span of a year, which if you don't know, pediatric, or kids, that's a lot of weight, that probably be a lot of weight, even for an adult in a year. I also had some other symptoms I had thinning hair had a lot of cold sensitivity, I had dry hands that were so dry, they would crack and bleed. And I was eating and playing the same amount as my sister, who was three years older, and she had none of the symptoms that I did. And so fortunate for me, my mom is a nurse, and she actually also has Hashimotos hypothyroid itis. And she took me to the provider, you know, I was, you know, still like playing and running and trying to sort of keep up and cope. But she could see that I was struggling to and so she had her own suspicions. While it was unusual that you would have hypothyroidism, she encouraged the doctor to administer blood tests to see, you know, could that be the answer? And they were very adamant that it was more likely that I was doing something else outside of outside of what she was telling them, you know, could I be hiding candy? Could I be you know, doing something else that would be causing these, this awakening. And she was like, There's no way I know my kid. So you know, great to have a wonderful advocate on my side. And of course the nurse helps. Lo and behold, they finally did do some blood tests. And they found my TSH was over 100, which is pretty staggering. And so you know, fortunate enough that you just keep tagging, tagging them with questions, and I need an answer and being very persistent, helped get that diagnosis at that time.

Philip Pape 09:00

Now, when I hear stories, I guess I mean, people shake their head, I shake my head every day when I hear stuff like, what what is it that? I mean, you're eight, right? So there's a certain trajectory when you're a kid, I mean, I have kids who are now 10 and 12. And yeah, there's the charts, right, the weight gain charts and stuff like that. So first question is, were you far off on that chart in terms of like an outlier? Or was it somewhat within the range? Potentially? I

Liz 09:23

was definitely an outlier on the growth chart, or wait, yeah. Okay. And

Philip Pape 09:27

how did they so without your mom having advocated for you, do you recall? Did she tell you the stories about did the doctors say this was an issue or bring it up as a concern in the first place? You

Liz 09:40

know, I think that it was sort of like oh, your daughter's overweight and move on. versus you know, is there anything else going on that could be a problem and I it's funny because I think back to about you know, my hands were cracking and bleeding and they gave me lotion for it. They prescribed lotion for it for exactly the band aid for the pro problem when, you know, I continue to say that's really not helping, it's not doing anything like what else could it be? So definitely, there was a lot of ignoring all the signs that sort of you have to bring them together to get the clinical picture of me as a patient at eighth. Yeah.

Philip Pape 10:14

And ask questions too, because I could imagine, like, I've had clients who will, you know, say, x is x is happening. And I'm thinking, okay, the root cause could be, you know, A, B, or C, but let me ask questions, at least to get the data. Who did did the doctor ask questions? Or was it just boom? Like, check the box? Let's move on. Yeah,

Liz 10:33

I recall a lot of box checking, you know, not really willing to get in depth on the answers. And I think, you know, that's part of a larger discussion about like, medical care in general. And I think that's why we find a lot of medical gaslighting that, do we even have the time as providers to stop and ask questions. Is that built into their day? No. So they're trying to, you know, survive. And I think that we as patients are the victims of that sometimes, you

Philip Pape 11:02

make a great point that doctors are a product of a system, right? And, and the system may be the root cause. But if that system exists, we need to be aware of it to know what the consequences for us and maybe, maybe not rely so much on what we think their doctors can and will do, and maybe just assume it's not going to happen, sadly, right? Because that's the state we're in? What was the impact of finally getting the diagnosis, then you got the appropriate diagnosis, they finally did the blood work, which I'm curious if this kind of blood work should just be done on a regular basis. But I understand you don't want to like over test for things. What was the impact from that point, like, just tell us about that?

Liz 11:39

Staggering. So you know, the different than, like, feeling sluggish, and tired and cold, and you know, having no appetite, even when you want to go run and play and do all of those things? You know, it was a big difference for me as a child at eight. And it has been an interesting trajectory over the last 30 something or 20, something years trying to continue to stay well, because hypothyroidism can be such a roller coaster. So I feel like it's sort of set me on a path very early to, you know, be in tune with my body and understand what feels good and what feels not good for me. And really being able to just kind of keep getting better along the way has, it's made all the difference. Awesome.

Philip Pape 12:22

Okay, I want to own a turn a brief story, and then kind of go back and forth. And you're juggling to both of you here with the two stories, but what what will be interesting to see is the similarities. And then also, when I come back to you, Liz, we'll probably get into, you know, later on, like, how can the listener benefit specifically with understanding things like hypothyroidism, which is quite common, and maybe even Hashimotos? Since you said, your mom had that, and we get into that. So Bree, you mentioned that you had like almost a decade of gaslighting Share, share with us the symptoms you had, how the doctors responded things like that? Well,

Brienne 12:53

for starters, I have had, she's also. So there's, there's definitely going to be a lot of overlap. And it kind of actually ends up playing into a lot of the gaslighting that I experienced, it took a long time, I come from a long genetic line of Hashimotos, but was not acknowledged as anything auto immune for a really, really long time. And then once it finally did, that actually ended up kind of being the bucket that a lot of stuff got poured into it, a lot of the medical professionals that I was interacting with was like, Oh, well, it's probably just Hashimotos, it's probably just that. And it really delayed getting help. So for context, I don't want to get into all of the details of the other side of this. I'm glad you have a disclaimer up front. But there was some trauma almost 10 years ago, that my family and I went through where we were involved in a live shooting event that I don't need to get into the details on but we were very rapidly moved out of the place that we were in, we were kind of put into a safe zone where we've lived for the last almost 10 years now. And very rapidly after that happened, the kind of trauma that experienced just flipped my health on its head. And I had already been managing Hashimotos. And I'd already at that point, I'd already been diagnosed celiac as well. So I had gone gluten free. Like I was doing a lot of the things I had been feeling a lot better for a while at that point. And then this event happens. And everything flipped upside down. And within six months, I gained 85 pounds. Yeah, and again, it could just get chalked up to it's, it's your house you use like obviously this has gotten out of out of control, and you must be depressed. And so you're probably just eating more than you realize, and you're probably not moving as much as you should be. And it really just always got shocked into that. And then very rapidly that it also became, well, if you lost weight, you'd probably feel better, which is like the non stop that I got from medical professionals over and over and over and over again. Even my thyroid specialists that I was seeing for the Hashimotos like well, you know, have you tried maybe doing a little bit more of this or a little bit more of that and

Philip Pape 14:54

just Just Eat more, eat less move more.

Brienne 14:56

Exactly. I mean doesn't always just come down to that like It's just that easy, of course, of course. And it really felt like I was constantly being dismissed. And when, like you were saying was, I feel like when you have some of these kinds of chronic illnesses, especially an autoimmune disorder, you get really in tune with your own body. And you kind of know, when something's off when something's wrong. And when you've had to advocate for your own health for long enough, he's paid a lot of attention to those kinds of things. And the number of times that I would sit in front of, you know, a primary care physician or my thyroid specialist, or you name it kind of medical professional, or even, like fitness trainers or whatever, and be told, Well, it's probably like, Are you tracking what you're eating? Have you paid attention to, like, maybe you need carbs a little bit more, and, you know, like, it was always those kinds of responses, and it was just chalked up to these other things. You know, maybe maybe we'll play a little bit with your medication. But, you know, this, this really is probably that you aren't doing what you should be doing. And it just was very dismissive. And it I knew something else was wrong. I knew something had snapped or broken somewhere in that process. Because you don't just gain a five pounds in six months, for no reason. No, like medical tracking reads like there's there's something there. There's something. Right?

Philip Pape 16:14

Yeah, yeah, most people gain all their weight in the holidays, from obvious things. Yeah.

Brienne 16:19

And the effort it would take to gain 85 pounds in the holidays like that would be remarkable. That would be like somebody should get a trophy if they were capable of that, because it's just really not something that happens that easily. So it was very dismissive for years and years and years, and I changed healthcare providers. And I changed, I even changed insurance at one point, and I felt like I was chasing, chasing, chasing. And I had learned early on with the Hashimotos experience that I really did have to advocate for my own health, but was in a not awesome headspace after all of those events have taken place. And so advocacy becomes very, very difficult when you're in that kind of a state anyway, and I had a lot of social anxiety that was going on, and a lot of other things that had kind of kicked up in that trauma situation, that made it very difficult to do the work to advocate for myself, because I didn't feel like confronting physicians or other health care professionals to try to fight for what I felt like I needed, I just knew that it wasn't, they weren't giving me what I needed. And a lot of that just you know, was kind of shut down and was like, Well, fine, I'm just going to conveniently cancel that appointment. And then I'll see if I can make one with another person and see what they get. And then it would be the same thing over and over and over and over again. And it really wasn't until not long before, long before I found your podcast. And a lot of it was related to Karen's podcast, but some of the other literature that I had come across again, data and research person, so I was the person in the pandemic, who had like the stack of medical journals on the bedside table, you know, just for funsies. So I don't mind reading through a lot of that stuff, or getting into the nitty gritty. And it just the consistency that I was coming across it like, there's something here with the adrenals. There's something here with the hormones. And when I finally got to that answer, I had already done so much. I'm not afraid of the hard work. So when it was things like well, maybe it's maybe your sleep is a problem and was like cool, I will get a sleep coach, I will retrain myself on how to sleep properly, because I wasn't getting enough sleep, and didn't have a great understanding of how much sleep I actually needed. So I did that. And that didn't fix anything. And then was like, Well, maybe it's adrenal is maybe my stress is that issue, because I got told that one a lot by doctors, you just need to stress a little left. Right, right. You know, just you know, it's like when you're really upset, and somebody says Calm down, because that always works. And don't be depressed. Just yeah, don't be anxious. Have you thought happier thoughts? Yeah, it's it was in that vein. And so I, I did some stuff that was actually very helpful with stress. And we saw the reaction with the adrenal testing that I was getting done when I had done some training and transcendental meditation. And I actually had done some hypnotherapy. I mean, like, I'm just literally willing to try anything I have long since gone past pharmaceutical options. I was like, you name it, I'm trying it. Let's just see if it works. And I did see good results with like cortisol and things like that, when I did that, but it still didn't fix the issue. So then I got medically cleared to start exercising again, which I had been a little bit restricted on. And, you know, I sit on do chronic cardio, because that's not great for my system at all, but started adding in, you know, resistance training, and I was in the pool, and I was doing reformer Pilates, and I was like I was literally like six days a week. And nothing was changing. And so I looked into gut health and it was like, Alright, then I tested positive for SIBO. So let's do treatment for that. So I did treatment for that. And we got to where I was testing negative on it. Nothing was changing. So I felt like it went round and round and round and round and round. And every time that I thought I found an answer. It wasn't an answer until it finally was like, Well, what about hormones? And I got tested for them and I had no detectable levels of estrogen or progesterone in my system. And my testosterone was at a nine c Which is pretty low. So it was like bells all went off was like, is it this is it this is finally like this has got to be it. This has this interacts with all of these same areas that I've been trying to address. And when I took it to my doctor, when those results came back, and I was like, alright, let's sit down, I've done my homework, I've done my research, I looked into this thing, I looked into this thing. Let's talk about how we're going to address this. And she stopped me mid sentence and said, I'm very upset that you went and did that. It was like that I went and did what she's like the wind and you looked at other medical information, and that you looked at other doctors recommendations on this, I'm very upset. This is my area of expertise. And I'm really upset that you did that. I was like flabbergasted because I've worked with this doctor for years, and did not see that coming at all shut down the entire conversation. And when I asked if I could retest it a month, and maybe we'll just come back to it. Then she said, I'm never testing your hormones. Again, this is not the issue. This is not a problem. We're not going to be talking about this again, and wanted to go back to talking about thyroid issues instead. And it was devastating. I

Philip Pape 21:02

don't even know where to start. I don't even know where to start. Because Oh, I mean, women in my life might live very close to me male and female doctors, I've heard stuff similar to that where they'll say, Well, you know, you're too young, or no, it's not the hormones, it's something else. And B you actually got tested had a reasonably low numbers, obviously. And you had tried everything else. And here, here's the sanctimony the arrogance, right, this dot like that's, I'm feeling it right from the start.

Brienne 21:30

Well, in so much of that thing you get where it's like you tell like No, no, I've done this I've done I'd been tracking everything for so long. And like, I can show it to them. But if it's like, but did you really like? No, I really, really did. I've been tracking my sleep for seven years, I've been tracking my food for four and a half, I'd like Like, I've got all of this on paper in writing, and I'm that person. So like, it's all there and to have it just utterly dismissed. And then to have it in test results. You know, I have those, I have those test results in my you know, my shirt system and all of that, like it's there. It's in black and white and have it just dismissed to be told. And then and now we're not even going to talk about this. This is a non issue. I was 38 years old at the time, and it was like, your hormones are not a problem. We're not even gonna talk about it. It's like, no, yeah.

Philip Pape 22:16

And honestly, and maybe Liz can chime in here as medical professional, but is there like, Are there books that you know, you go through training, and it's basically root cause decision tree type books. And I asked this because one time when I was in my rheumatologist offices because I have a minor connective tissue autoimmune thing myself. I was looking, I was just snooping through their stuff. And there was a big book there. And I actually looked up, like my condition. And it's it. It was like if this do this, if this this if this do this. And I was like, Wait a minute. Is that what they're doing? Like? Liz? I'm just curious China,

Liz 22:47

there are some sub specialty texts like that, that kind of give you guidelines as far as treatment. So yeah, it can be kind of prescriptive like that. But oftentimes, there's some anecdotal things that happen to like, what did your What did the person who taught you, you know, teach you about it? And so that's a lot of the experiential learning of healthcare, too. But yes, sometimes some of it is very simple and straightforward. And if this then do that, and so it always amazes me when providers kind of can't help take that next step, that really, we're coming to them with a have A plus B equals C, you know, I have a helped me get B and then it'll equal c, right? Sometimes that can be that simple. But

Philip Pape 23:27

yeah, and this, this doctor of yours free to just saying that, like, how dare you get tested elsewhere? Like, I'm just I'm not sure where that comes from? Oh, no, I wonder how many doctors are like that. I mean, I've heard a lot of stories. Well,

Brienne 23:43

in what's wild is she was actually the one who did she actually was the one who ordered the first tests when I had requested them. Yeah, and then wouldn't do him again to the aisle further testing. After that I've had to get done myself. I hadn't done it. I had him read done a month later, because of course, the gaslighting part of the kind of insidious part of it is that it really starts to make you doubt yourself. And even though that I've done this, and I've lived, I live in this body, every day, and I've had to advocate for myself. And I've had to kind of pay a lot of attention to how I'm feeling and what works and what doesn't for a very long time, and to have that reaction. And to know something is not right. But then to immediately doubt my own lived in my own body experience. And if that was real, because of this reaction from you know, a professional. That was like, I finally had to then go out of pocket to go get retested a month later, because I was like, Maybe Maybe there was something wrong with the test, maybe, like, maybe I am missing something. I'm not a doctor. So you know, maybe I'm wrong here. And they came back exactly the same a month later, you know, it was confirmed and it was but I had to go do that out of pocket because she would not talk about it ever again.

Philip Pape 24:46

Right. And I understand a lot of hormone treatment and testing does have to be done out of pocket. I've experienced that as well. And you talked a couple times now about the friction we have against even self hack of advocacy, right? The friction like first of all, if you're not Have the right headspace. And you're trying to trust these professionals. Secondly, just the system itself and the healthcare and the financials. It goes on and on. And probably third, I mean, there's a whole long list of like, because we are not the experts, we're questioning how much should we internet Doctor ourselves, right. And I'm coming to find talking to you here and others that we should doctor the hell out of ourselves. Like, basically just assume doctors know nothing, but then collaborate and correlate, you know, against stuff, they know,

25:32

that most value that I got from this was the fact that I had someone that I could talk to about anything, and that there was going to be no judgement, it was just Well, here are your goals, here's the best way that you're going to achieve it. And then let's work together to help you feel inspired and motivated to do that. And a lot of people out there trying to be coaches, and not all of them have done the work and also just be a genuine person that is positive and coming from the heart in terms of wanting to help. And Phillip really embodied all of those qualities, I would recommend him to just about anyone that's looking to achieve goals in that realm of their nutrition and building new habits.

Philip Pape 26:17

I know we had our chat, and then I know you found Karen, like, Where was this? Was there a spark somewhere specifically with the hormones that that got you on that track that people listening can say, okay, maybe I can try that.

Brienne 26:29

I mean, I was noticing the correlation between some of these, because there was already deep diving on podcasts and books and a lot of different opportunities to learn more about what is it that I'm experiencing? And how does that align with like what this could potentially be? Because it wasn't, it wasn't just adrenals, it wasn't just an issue of cortisol, it was not just an issue of sleep, it wasn't just an issue of what I was eating, and how much and how much I was working out. And so in that process of diving into what could the answer be, when you start hearing things in the hormone world about a lot, frankly, a lot of symptoms that can sound a little bit more like the thyroid issues where you've got brain fog, and you've got trouble sleeping, and you've got, you know, belly fat. And I mean, everybody loves talking about meadow belly and all of that stuff, you start to see some correlations, where it's like, okay, this is, this is what I'm experiencing. So maybe let's just find out, maybe, let's test and that was, it was a very like, light intro to when I went to that doctor the first time and like, I don't know, I'm curious, and I am getting closer to 40. And there's already fertility issues when you have autoimmune thyroid disorder. And I've got two kids, and I wasn't looking to add to that number. But my sister had lost, she'd had a miscarriage and lost the baby late term. And so it was just kind of Top of Mind of like a and let's just, let's just see where things are at and an asinine gotten that testing when it came back is not detectable, it's like, okay, so this is clearly a problem. So treatment probably would make a really big difference. And to then be immediately rejected on being able to go further on treatment, it was the last time I had an appointment with that doctor. But I had to find, and I had to find other care, because I didn't have the option. It's very expensive, I didn't have the option of paying out of pocket for full hormone treatment. As it is I even through insurance, I still go through a compound pharmacy for the treatments that I use. And it's still really expensive. And I think it's really unfortunate that I think that that's probably a pretty big barrier for treatment for a lot of people. Because it has been a night and day experience once I started to get on actual treatment for all three hormones that I'm having replaced. Got

Philip Pape 28:30

it. Yeah. And I've heard, you know, you would think there's a simple argument can be made that if it's so profound, for women, for lots of women who probably have hormone imbalances, why doesn't insurance cover it, but then I think the cynical and maybe realistic answer is that there's more money in the pharmaceuticals, perhaps for treating sickness? I don't know, or it's just the system set up that way, right. Like, I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist. But you know, let's, let's go to I'm skeptical of everything. So that's how it works. Let's go back to Liz, like, Do you have any thoughts on anything we just said first, and then before I go to another question.

Liz 29:04

So as a medical professional, Mike, my question is always, if you're gonna run a test, it should impact what you're going to do next grade, it should have some sort of impact on the treatment options you're exploring. Otherwise, why are you doing the test if it's not going to inform the next step for the patient? So if you ever encounter that, I would say the best advice I have is run from that provider. Because, you know, why are you charging my insurance for a test that means nothing to you that you don't value? The data from? Like, that's a very big red flag to me. And I know we're probably going to talk about that. But, um, you know, incredible amount of homework that you do. And I think reading studies on a Friday night is a very exciting, right and I so, you know,

Philip Pape 29:47

either add that to stress relief or to sleep pack, like one or the other for her

Liz 29:50

one or the other. Right? So, I think an incredible job that Bree did just advocating for herself and, and yeah, so unfortunate. that we are all experiencing this. What?

Philip Pape 30:02

You know, I wonder if a doctor asked. So I've heard doctors will who won't even get the tests, ordered the tests because you're 38 or whatever, like, as if that's some, there's a magic number you have to get to like 50 or whatever. That that's one thing that comes to mind. But the other is, you're right. If she had the test, was she hoping that the numbers would be good enough that she could just tell you? Okay, let's move on to the next thing, you know, just speculating if that was what it was. You mentioned red flags. Liz. So, I mean, how about you? What were some other red flags on the way? And again, I know it was, we're talking about when you were young, specifically, or was there another situation later on as well? More recently? Yeah,

Liz 30:40

I like that. It's been the roller coaster of healthcare. And I think we've sort of touched on that with Hashimotos, especially, but I have a primary care provider that I really value. And I appreciate. And she's done a phenomenal job of, you know, letting me participate in care and really interact with me. And so recently, I went to her office and, you know, again, starting to feel some symptoms again, can we get a blood test? It's been a little bit. And those results were sort of borderline, which for someone with Hashimotos. It's like, okay, great. What does that mean? What do we do with that, but you're having symptoms, write symptoms should really drive sort of what are we going to do for you. And so she had also been having this conversation with me about, oh, you're starting to sort of edge towards overweight, your BMI is escalating, we really need to be mindful about those things. And you really need to work harder to lose weight. And I said, you know, here's some of the things I'm doing, what exactly different would you have me do? And she was like, oh, no, you're doing great. Keep on the same path. So when this came up, I said, so it's borderline and you tell me, I'm gaining weight? Why wouldn't we tweak my medication? She was like, Oh, sure, let's do that. So it was sort of this, like, it's gaslighting. And then it's also, the trick is finding someone who will also listen and take your, you know, personal suggestion of this is what I'm finding, and this is the homework I've done. And can't we just try it? And sometimes they say yes, and so you're like, but were those other times, still valid, like, whereas I still gaslit yesterday, but today, you're appropriate, it's it can be really such a mind game. And so for me and other medical experiences that I've had, and I think, you know, the OB GYN is another one for a lot of women where we get gaslighting. And belittling language, to me is a lot of what I see, I see it in peers at the hospital that I work with, or you see it, you know, in my own medical care that, is it just this or could it be, you know, this belittling language that sort of diminishes your experience? Like Bree was saying, it makes you second guess your own lived experience. That's a big one for me. And I think also, when providers act frustrated and angry, that's a big red flag to me, you know, my care, my lived experience, what I feel well is should never anger a provider. And that, to me, a huge red flag of, you know, if mean, eating something is going to interact with, you know, how you're going to interact with me, then I don't want that provider to be caring for me and giving them that that time. And that To be frank, give them my money, either.

Philip Pape 33:15

Yeah. So, so much, so much of what you say I've seen it firsthand with people. And you're right, that it can be even worse when it almost seems like the doctors going along with you. Like you said, I think what you were saying is that your current doctor is kind of maybe better than the average, but maybe not quite where you wish they were because she waited for you to take action and mention what you wanted to do. And she's like, Yeah, okay, fine, almost almost patronizing. Lee, right. Yeah. Yeah. You literally language. Okay. And then yeah, when fighters are frustrated, angry, I mean, I don't know, as a nutrition coach, like, I just want to be a detective and figure it out? And if I don't know, let's figure it out. So I don't understand where that attitude comes from in the medical industry. Do you see it more often than not? And is it because of the training? Is it because of medical school? Like are you do what do you know where that comes from?

Liz 34:06

I think there are a lot of providers that go out into the world and get, you know, medical training and knowledge because they want to help people and they do have them that. But I think there is a certain point where ego does come into play. And when they don't know the answer, and they can't help and they can't fix, which is all they've been know trained and taught to do, that sometimes it can be a threat to their ego. And so I think there are wonderful providers out there. And I think there are providers that are absolutely threatened by not having the answer. And unfortunately, you know, I think that can come into play.

Philip Pape 34:38

I love your positivity. I mean, that is I like that you keep coming back to hey, there are gonna be good apples out there. I agree. It doesn't necessarily excuse that how prevalent bad actors are, when you compare it to maybe other industries or something? I'm not putting that on you at all. Oh, man. Something came to mind when you said that. And what was it? I don't know. Let's keep going here. Bri did you want to anything because I can definitely get into more specific questions as we go forward.

Brienne 35:03

I fully agree with everything you're saying was, I think that those are a lot of the really big red flags, those that kind of being dismissed to being angry being resistant to a collaborative experience. And I really feel like that's how it should work with medical professionals is that it really should be a collaborative experience, because they have a lot of knowledge and expertise and things they can bring to the table. And they kind of hold the keys to the gate, when it comes to a lot of the testing and prescriptions and a lot of these other things that you want to have access to, in order to have this, you know, elevated sense of wellness, it should be collaborative, because it's still, it's still my body, still my life, it's still all the things that I have to live through and go through on a daily basis. And so when you don't have a collaborative healthcare professional that you're working with, that's really, that should really be a flag right there. Ego is certainly a huge flag too. I feel like when you find a physician, whatever their specialty, whatever their capacity in the medical field, when you find one that is collaborative, and you find one that is open, that encourages you to do I feel like it's more of a green flag. But when they encourage you to do a lot of your own research and provide you with resources that you can dive deeper on, they are worth their weight in gold, like you hold on to them as much as you can, because I do feel like they are unfortunately quite rare. And when you don't have that collaborative spirit, that's that's a huge red flag.

Philip Pape 36:23

That's a really good one for listeners to take home. A couple of things come to mind, Bree and Liz was first it's it sounds ironic that doctors pretty much get paid whether they fix your issue or not. Right. And that almost seems ironic, because then well, maybe it isn't maybe it is because of that they just want to move to the next thing. Or somebody who's incentivized to do that to actually address the issue without would put more into it. But then Bri your comment about if someone is open to you doing the research, right. I have heard I've had personal experience with with this two very different gi doctors one who I had a minor issue with my voice was getting hoarse, which is a podcaster was a nightmare. My voice is getting hoarse. And I had been taking this steroid inhaler thing for esophageal, esophageal thing. And I said and I Googled it, and it said, steroid induced hoarseness that oh, okay, let me stop taking it. And it went away. And I went back on it came back and went up. So I told the doctor, I did this three times I'm going away. Anon, that's not a thing. That doesn't exist, you know, two different doctors actually a GI doctor, and what do you call your ears and throat? So it's a thing like I did it. Okay. All right. Well, that's fine. You could. And then I had to say like, Can we do a different steroid or different options? Sure. Sure. We can. It's the same thing that yeah, insane. And then there was another doctor, I wish I still had him. He was my primary in the old town I used to live in who taught students and you know, he was older. So you think a lot of times you old school doctors are kind of like stuck in their ways. And he was always I was bringing in papers and stuff. He's like, Yeah, that's great. I heard about it. It just came out last week. I think I think we should try that. Like, let's do that, you know. So for those listening, like, these are good green and red flags to look for. So thank you for bringing all those up. And then I guess, you know, if someone feels that they're experiencing gaslighting right now they're listening this insane. Okay, I recognize those signs, those flags, like what's the first bit of advice, you know, one or two things they might do to take action today and move in the right direction? Where to go first? I mean,

Brienne 38:30

I'll jump in on it certainly my one of the most these more recent experiences with this, the hormone situation. It was when that happened when I got shut down and dismissed. And this is a full stop, we're not moving any further. That to me is like, I'm done. Okay. And I remember having like, it's funny, because you talked about the OBGYN field and how this happens too much there, too. I feel like this happens a lot to women who are pregnant and are, especially when you get closer to labor and delivery. You get a lot of this. And I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine, who was she was just passed. I mean, like a day passed the 40 week mark, and her doctor was really, really pushing on like, you were just going to have to induce because you're at my favorite phrase, you're a geriatric pregnancy. So we have to induce you, we have to induce you, and I'm having a conversation here of like, they're not going to show up to your house with an ambulance and force you in it. Like, you can just say, No, you don't have to do that. And I feel like every now and then I have to remind myself the same thing is true for my own health. And the doctors I'm working with, I don't have to stay with them. I don't have to keep working with them. I don't have to take their advice. I don't have to take the medication. It's like you're talking about going on and off to kind of test and learn on your own with this like steroid inhaler. You don't have to just do what they say they don't get to make all the decisions and own your life. You can walk away and so if you're experiencing some of this, cancel the appointment, find a new doctor. You can like you don't you don't owe an explanation. Nothing. You can just move on On, and you don't have to confront if you don't want to, if you feel like it more power to you, I'm not a terribly confrontational person that gets hot and bothered if I do that. So I prefer not to and I'm totally fine just being like, Okay, then I'm now done. And I will cancel the next appointment. And I will say thank you for your time, and I will leave and I just won't come back again. And I'll find somebody else.

Liz 40:20

I think that's a great point spree. And I think some other things, just one other thing that I would really add to that is to sort of recap the conversation and rephrase it and send it back to them and say, like, Am I understanding this correctly? So for example, you know, you got this hormone testing done, my estrogen and my progesterone were completely now. And you're saying now that we should not treat that? Is that correct? Am I understanding that correctly? And can you help me understand why, you know, sometimes I think it definitely puts the burden on the patient, right? That's not fair that we have to then argue for healthcare and say, like, you know, go above and beyond to keep arguing for what we think is right. And we know to be right for ourselves. But I think sometimes it does sort of gut check them to say, Oh, wait, that actually doesn't make sense. Now that you've said it back. Maybe I can come up with something else. Or I think also saying, Well, this is one console that I'm doing. And I'm I'm looking for other providers who would also be experts in this field. So I'm going to take your recommendation of doing nothing, and I'll go see what another provider has to say, because I think it's very transparent to say, that's not an option for me doing nothing is not going to help me be well. And that's my goal. That's why I'm here. So you know, I think you can be transparent, you don't have to be I don't like to be confrontational, either. But I think, you know, sticking up for yourself is, is it's hard. And sometimes I just feel like we have to say, say something.

Philip Pape 41:43

Yeah, you're a pro. You're a pro at this. I love that. I love the wording. Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying this? Is that correct? I mean, just that's it, right? Because then if they're like, Yeah, you know, what, why are you telling me if my hormones have dropped to nothing? I'm doing nothing? Is that what you're saying? We just do. And walk? Yeah, right.

Liz 42:02

And I feel like I advocate for patients all the time in the hospital. Like, I feel like I've gotten really good at saying, Okay, this is the result, you're telling me, that's really what you want to do. And, and so sometimes it does jar them into that, oh, I should do something

Philip Pape 42:14

about that. Right. And for the listener listening in Advanced Practice, practice, nurse. I don't know, I don't know if this is just a perception. But it seems like nurses, PAs, like anybody other than doctors, for some reason seem to care more just on average. If that's what you've experienced in the field, I

Liz 42:32

feel like as a nurse, our worldview is a little bit more holistic, we care about the whole person, not just maybe the dataset in front of us. But what does that also mean and the grander scheme of that patient. And I feel like we being a nurse, you have to advocate for your patient, that's one of the best and hardest parts of being a nurse. So I definitely think that a lot of people get into that profession to help people. And it's a lot easier to start as a nurse or a PA than it is as a doctor to so it helps remove those barriers. And I think that's, that's part of why I like so many of those providers when I seek out care, too. Yeah,

Philip Pape 43:06

that's true. And then that leads me to thinking, Okay, if people are looking for another provider today, we have a lot of resources, right? Even word of mouth on Facebook, like, like a, I'm looking for a doctor who works with people who train with barbells, who's a lifter himself or something, you know, like, where is that? And then people will chime in, although I did that once. And then somebody else said, Well, he's not a doctor, because he's a PA. And I'm like, Oh, I think I do want to see this guy. You know, because it's these. It's this elitism around the letter sometimes. Hey, what do you guys think about holistic and functional doctors? Because especially in the hormone world, it almost seems like that's one of the only ways to get somebody who wants to solve the problem with you. What do you guys think about that? Maybe three or less?

Brienne 43:49

Yeah, I grew up in a home that was very respectful of the medical professional and like medical professionals in general. And that's a good thing. And a bad thing. Sometimes, I think it's part of why when, especially when I was first trying to get a lot of the treatment after after the shooting had happened. And there was a lot of other issues that it kicked up with that and I went the traditional methods, and you know, had the anti anxiety medication and had the depression medication and had all of these other things that were just like the very traditional routine and weren't working. And I think it took I had a conversation with a good friend who had kind of like, sat me down and had a real heart to heart conversation of like, look, sometimes those things work for the majority of people and sometimes you aren't the majority of people and sometimes you need to go move outside of the traditional accepted haves in find another option and maybe you'll find something that works for you. And I felt like that kind of unshackled me in a lot of ways, which is how I ended up going to other pathways and things I probably honestly never would have considered before. And then they worked to were really helpful. And it was like, oh, there's an entire other world out here. And I'm still this is part of why I was so attracted to a lot of the stuff that you say felt Like I still care about there has to be data and research. One of my absolute favorite phrases like literally gonna probably buy the t shirt that comes from a different podcaster. He constantly says it in his podcast where he says, who I'm gonna have to say this correctly. Think Critically, Google competently? Should I love that? That's like a mantra that I can like now live by to think critically and Google competently because I'm not afraid to step out of the lane. Now I've worked with functional medical medical doctors, I've worked with the advice given from medical professionals, but I'm not directly their patient aren't because they've written books or stuff, but because they aren't getting access in the mainstream spaces. And just having conversations, people who maybe have gone through it before and say, Look, I don't know, this one worked for me, why don't you try it, and allowing yourself to kind of experiment on your own self, when you're not getting the help with the traditional routes. Anyway, opening all of that up was really, really huge for me, and it's what moved the needle. And it's what eventually got me to a completely different side of health in my own life. I mean, when I finally got hormone treatment, I didn't start hormone therapy until March of last year. So we're coming up on a year. And it took a little while to kind of dial in those dosages of what I you know, get it all working and clicking on all the things that my body needed. And like, almost as soon as we got it, nailed it by June of last year, not that it was all about weight, because it was mostly about how I felt but the got 85 pound weight gain that had been stuck with me for nine years. All of that has been gone since by December, like literally like six months on six months off. Yeah.

Philip Pape 46:27

Change any of the other lifestyle. It was already dialed in. Yeah, all

Brienne 46:31

the other stuff was was I was already doing all the other things anyway was a good part about I guess, doing that for no reward. But getting to the other side of that where it's like, oh, wait, maybe maybe if you do go out of the lane a little bit, there's something to that, and being open to it. Still, you know, thinking critically googling competently. But you can find other options that are that will work. That will actually mean something, do something shipped something, and you don't have to be stuck to the traditional paths.

Philip Pape 46:57

Love it. I'm glad I asked that. Because yeah, I think people are wondering about that doesn't have to be a doc, you know, a traditional doctor, definitely not. So Liz, do you want to add to that,

Liz 47:05

I want that phrase cross stitched on something, really, I want to say, I think there's so much value in complementary and alternative medicine, I think there's, you know, it would be foolish to just think that, you know, medicine prescriptions are the only way to be healed and to be well and to be healthy. And so I think acupuncture and chiropractic medicine and vitamins and supplements and, you know, healthy lifestyles and sunshine and grounding and putting your feet in the dirt. Like there's so many different ways that wellness can be enhanced. And I think if you can use all of it, I think it can just only make you better. And often more well,

Philip Pape 47:42

you know, what you may have made me think of here is that, like if we had a pie chart, traditional health care, it would be this tiny slice. Because even what we do even talking about lifestyle, just lifting weights and caring about your nutrition kind of puts you in a minority these days, but it is a form of health care. And in fact, you've heard the criticisms, those health care versus sick care, right. And you can almost like put traditional medicines to that sick care slice. And then all the other things are what we try to do on our own toward health care, although there's a time in place for for medication and whatnot. Cool. All right. So we're going to close here soon, what I really want to get to the root of is, why did you think it was important to share your story today, because I reached out in our community, and I brought up the topic and you guys raise your hand, you're courageous enough to come on here. And you know, everybody's nervous about going on a podcast and all that. Why was it important for you to be here, let's start with Liz. And then three,

Liz 48:37

I think we are the number one person who can take care of us. And it's so crucially important to advocate for ourselves, and to really speak up and get the things that we need and reach out to the next resource if we're not getting it. So, you know, so many things that I've learned as both a nurse and as like a human being in the world had been from hearing someone else's experience and going, Oh, that sounds similar to mine. Let me learn something, let me do something with that information. And so I just I feel like the more we can share our stories, the more we can advocate for ourselves and be better patients and maybe not even be patient. You know, that'd be the goal. But I just thought it was important that, you know, we continue to have these conversations about gaslighting and how to advocate and, and more importantly, how to be happy and healthy.

Philip Pape 49:25

I love it. So I mean, two things, you really struck me there just advocating for yourself, like you said, right, because no one else is really going to do it for you, even our closest loved ones they try. But we have our best advocate and then taking what you have and sharing it with others and helping others see the same thing, which is what we're trying to do here. So Thanks, Liz. Absolutely, Bri

Brienne 49:43

I completely agree with that. I feel like my entire life looks completely different than it did even even a year ago or two years ago or 10 years ago it everything was so different and I sounds almost cliche to be like, Oh, I'm 40 and it's you know best have ever felt bit like it's, that's that's real. That's true that happens. And I, I have this kind of like, desperate need to convince other people that they really need to, like do this too. And like, like to the point where I kind of have to like hold myself backwards, like don't don't start trying to diagnose people or something because that's not helpful. But like the idea of like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, you don't have to be like your story doesn't have to be, you know, my back hurts every day or I never get any sleep or I've gained all this weight, I don't know what to do with it or how to get it back off, or my doctor never listens to me or I feel crappy all the time. That doesn't have to be anybody's story, there are options. And if if it helps to share what I've experienced, and somebody else can recognize that and then go, maybe I'll give that a try and see what happens like that I don't, I will probably never know. But it's really helpful to know that I've done my part to at least share what I experienced. And then it could be better for somebody else, because

Philip Pape 50:56

I love it. And I know people, somebody you will impact at least one person and probably more than that. No, I'm not saying the show has millions of listeners, but there's enough people who listen and are kind of in that demographic of you know, we're in our 30s 40s 50s. And, you know, wondering what the heck we might do even if lifestyle is dialed in, and maybe lifestyle is not dialed in. And if you know who you are, if that's the case, nobody needs a robot in your face, right? Like we want to work both together and figure out the solution. So that is awesome. I mean, this has been this has been really fun. And before we let everyone know how to connect with you, I do want to give a voice from someone else in our community. I mentioned this before we started recording. Um, her name is Stella. And I'm just she gave me permission to share her story I want to share in her own words. So again, the warning we had before this could be you know, serious topic here. Quote, I had severe anemia written off as depression without any testing by the doctor who drugged and raped me. He was successfully sued for malpractice by others. But I didn't feel safe to come forward about it at that time as I was only 19. The mental health misdiagnosis has never been removed from my file. So I've never received actual testing or investigation into any of my other health issues. It all gets written off as crazy patient syndrome. To save my life, I had to do over 10 years of research, and watch my mom's diagnoses to find out what else was going on. She was gaslit about a thyroid issue for two decades until diagnosis. And doctors continue to refuse to order tests along the lines of my research. So there's no way to formally confirm or deny this. However, I brought myself back from being almost bedridden, while doctors did nothing. I think it's important to speak up about how militias, predatory doctors can destroy a patient's ability to receive health care for their entire life in court. So it's a very different story from you. But there's a lot of similarities and obviously very heavy and what sellers had to go through. Did any of you want to say anything about that? You don't have to I can, you know, close the episode here.

Brienne 52:53

I don't have good words. Okay, absolutely horrific. But unfortunately, not as rare as it should be.

Liz 53:00

I think it's so important that, you know, we speak out because it gives other people permission to speak out, too. I think so many times we've seen this happen where women have an experience and they think I'm the only one I'll just keep it to myself and and I'll live with this forever. But you never know how many people are out there, you know, live having the same lived experience that just don't quite have the courage to speak out. And so, you know, my heart breaks for her that she had a provider that you know, use it abuse and absolutely broke every oath that we make as healthcare providers. inexcusable, but, you know, I hope that she can find someone who will advocate for her and care for her and, you know, help her get the things that she needs to really, again, get back to wellness, whatever that means for what a courageous thing for her to share her story to incredible,

Philip Pape 53:52

very much. Yeah. And she lives in a place where the infrastructure is difficult. She wanted to be on here, you know, couldn't but yeah, it's it's, you know, total spectrum. As we see it's a spectrum everybody is different in the care we receive is different, but it's all the same principles behind it. And you to express beautifully how we can take back control of our health. So I do want to express you know, the deepest thanks and gratitude to both of you, Liz and Bree, for your bravery, vulnerability, because you are also sharing your you know, details of your life. And your experiences just tell us how common it is. I mean, not just to yours, but also those that you've lived with and know and lives as a medical professional as well can give us that perspective. And it affects our well being and affects our health. That's why I wanted to bring on this show because it affects everybody, even men, listening men supporting women, it happens to everybody. And so to our listeners to our viewers who've had symptoms dismissed or your concerns minimized or your intuition about your own body ignored by medical professional, you are not alone at all. The stories here are just like a small sliver of this pervasive problem that we have in our industry. But you know, lism really showed us that there is power in self advocacy and being the number one, advocate for yourself. And trust your experience, seek second opinions, advocate with your appointments and like you can cancel on a doctor if you have to, as we heard from Bree, maybe even you don't have people that go with you to appointments can be helpful, too. And keep pushing for the care and answers you deserve. And if you're a healthcare professional listening, just like Liz, I urge you to reflect on how you can create a safer, more validating environment for your patients to voice their concerns. So yes, change starts with what we had today with this conversation. And I think we could all work toward you know, a future where this doesn't happen again. That's that's what we want. So with that said, I know I've been talking a lot here, Liz, where do you want people to connect with you?

Liz 55:50

And the easiest place to find me is on Instagram. I'm at nurse Liz three. All

Philip Pape 55:55

right, Instagram fit nurse Liz three. I'll throw that in the show notes and Bri same question.

Brienne 56:00

Instagrams probably easiest place to find me as well. My whole little mini farm experiment up in the mountains is all on ball all on there. So you can find me on Instagram at modern mountain homestead. Modern

Philip Pape 56:12

mountain homestead. I'll put that in as well. Any final thoughts? I want to give you guys a last word. If you have anything else you want to say. It's

Liz 56:19

been such a pleasure to talk to you and Bree, I thank you so much for sharing your experience. And I just got so much out of this conversation that I hope that helps someone else. One person would be more than enough. Awesome. I'll

Brienne 56:31

echo that was really great to be with this group is such a fun group. I'm glad we have a whole like collaboration of nerds makes me happy. But just truly for anybody out there who listens. You can it's okay to advocate for yourself. It's okay to make your own decisions here. And I really, really hope that you are encouraged to do what's best for you.

Philip Pape 56:51

Well said I had a blast. So you guys are awesome. I had so much fun. This is one of the most favorite interviews I've ever done. And so I hope the listeners and viewers felt the same. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Brienne 57:01

Thank you.

Philip Pape 57:03

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Wits & Weights. If you found value in today's episode, and know someone else who's looking to level up their Wits & Weights. Please take a moment to share this episode with them. And make sure to hit the Follow button in your podcast platform right now to catch the next episode. Until then, stay strong.

Philip Pape 3/8/24 Philip Pape 3/8/24

Ep 153: Time-Efficient Muscle Growth, Cardio for Lifters, and Metabolism Myths with Jordan Lips

Want to unlock time-efficient muscle growth? Tune in as Jordan Lips spills the secrets of hypertrophy optimization and the truth about metabolic adaptation! Philip is joined by personal trainer, ex-gym owner, and MNU Certified Nutritionist Jordan Lip, who shares his expertise in three big areas: time-efficient hypertrophy, incorporating cardio as a lifter, and clearing up some of the misconceptions about metabolic adaptation.

Want to unlock time-efficient muscle growth? Tune in as Jordan Lips spills the secrets of hypertrophy optimization and the truth about metabolic adaptation!

Today, Philip (@witsandweights) is joined by personal trainer, ex-gym owner, and MNU Certified Nutritionist Jordan Lips, who works exclusively online with people who want to get healthier across a broad range of goals.

Philip invited Jordan on the show because of his straightforward approach to topics like metabolism and building muscle, which are often misconstrued in the fitness industry. Today, he shares his expertise in three big areas we're hearing a lot about: time-efficient hypertrophy, incorporating cardio as a lifter, and clearing up some of the misconceptions about metabolic adaptation.

Jordan has over 15 years of experience as the mind behind Jordan Lips Fitness and offers both 1-on-1 and group coaching. His online group programs, including 'The Hyper Trophies' for the gym and 'Home Bodies' for those working out from home, are designed to respect your time and lifestyle. And it doesn't hurt that Jordan deeply understands biomechanics, nutrition, and individualized program design. His podcast, "Where Optimal Meets Practical," is focused on optimizing your training, nutrition, and mindset but doing so in a practical way.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

2:50 Time-efficient hypertrophy
7:29 Intensity techniques for muscle growth
11:52 SFR and time efficiency
13:58 Muscle-building for beginners
16:03 The foundation of strength
19:25 Workout splits based on experience level
24:27 Cardio for lifters
40:04 Cardio during the fat loss phase
43:12 Defining metabolic adaptation
50:47 Does metabolic adaptation accelerate?
55:02 Are diet breaks/refeeds psychological?
59:46 The effects of hormones, alcohol, sleep, and stress on metabolic adaptation
1:03:19 Philip's metabolic adaptation after his surgery
1:06:38 The question Jordan wished Philip had asked
1:10:35 Where to find Jordan
1:11:01 Outro

Episode resources:

IG: @jordanlipsfitness
Podcast: jordanlipsfitness.com/podcast/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA1dws6_fvP1ue7auf31QOQ/featured
Group training programs for people in the gym or at home: https://jordanlipsfitness.com

Episode summary:

In the world of fitness and muscle building, there's a prevailing myth that one must live at the gym to see significant gains. This notion has deterred many, particularly those with packed schedules and varied commitments. But what if I told you that it's possible to achieve your dream physique with a well-structured, three-day workout routine? This is precisely the topic that was explored in a recent podcast episode with Jordan Lips, a personal trainer and nutritionist who specializes in helping busy individuals maximize their fitness without overwhelming their schedules.

The conversation began with a discussion on the concept of efficient hypertrophy and the realization that many of us could see gains without being gym-bound six days a week. The key lies in maximizing per-set stimulus by taking sets closer to failure. This method increases the effectiveness of each set, thereby reducing the overall number of sets and gym time required. It's not just about doing less but doing it smarter. By employing techniques like drop sets and myo-reps, one can significantly enhance the muscle-building stimulus of each workout session.

Delving deeper, the episode examined the advantages of using compound lifts and machines to save time and increase efficiency. The rationale is straightforward: by focusing on movements that use more muscle mass and provide greater stability, you minimize energy leaks and fatigue that could detract from your main goal—muscle growth. For example, substituting a back squat with a hack squat allows you to better target the quads without the added complexity and energy demands of stabilizing the body.

As the conversation continued, the topic of metabolic adaptation was brought into the spotlight. A common concern among fitness enthusiasts is that their metabolism might become 'damaged' due to rigorous endurance training or dieting. However, Lips explained that metabolic adaptation is simply a natural response of the body to caloric restriction or increased activity and is not something to be feared. Instead, focusing on controllable factors like weight training and maintaining step counts can help counteract the subconscious reduction in movement that often accompanies metabolic adaptation.

Furthermore, the episode addressed the role of cardiovascular fitness in a hypertrophy-focused training regimen. While cardio may not directly contribute to muscle growth, it does play a crucial role in overall health. Cardiovascular work enhances pulmonary function and fills a significant portion of the 'optimal health pie chart,' making it an indispensable part of a balanced fitness routine. It was emphasized that strategic, low-intensity cardio could boost endurance without compromising muscle gains.

Finally, the emotional aspects of fitness were tackled, challenging the fixation on calorie numbers and encouraging listeners to prioritize personal health indicators and biofeedback. The discussion highlighted the importance of adopting a mindset for sustainable progress, ensuring that listeners were equipped not just with physical training strategies but also with a mindset geared towards long-term wellness.

In essence, this podcast episode was not just about sculpting the body but also about shaping the mind to approach fitness with a balanced, informed perspective. It underscored the importance of fine-tuning your fitness journey with science and personal insight, making it a must-listen for anyone looking to elevate their health narrative without letting fitness consume their life.

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Transcript

Jordan Lips 00:00

The greatest indication of recovery is performance. And so am I consistently performing? You know, and that means ability to progress that stuff. And so if we were to take a hypothetical of a person who lifts who wants to do some cardio, how do they know they're doing too much? And it's like if you start showing up to your lifts, and you can't progress and you start to regress, and I don't just mean as a one off by the way, that shit happens. You know, you have a day you know, something didn't progress you match last week. No worries. I'm talking about a trend of regression.

Philip Pape 00:30

Jordan Lips 02:33

Now that is an intro. Thanks, man. Appreciate Yeah.

Philip Pape 02:37

Yeah, man, I was very excited for this. Because again, I follow your stuff. And I heard you on a few other podcasts recently, and wanted to dive into the hot topics, right. And we'll get into your story and, you know, real world kind of interaction as we go along. But time efficient hypertrophy, we've got a lot of folks listening who are maybe they're in their 40s, like me, I'm a dad, we you know, we're busy, we have obligations, we're not looking to compete, but we all are looking to look our best and have this sort of fitness lifestyle. How do we design that lifestyle? We can get into details as we go along. But what's your general approach to that? Thank you. The

Jordan Lips 03:13

first thing that comes to mind to me when I'm thinking about people who are interested in efficiency is just kind of taking a small step back and acknowledging and maybe just shifting people's expectations of how much they need to do in the first place. And so I think people who are interested in efficiency, I think those are the same people that would benefit from understanding actually how little you need to do and to make gains, let's say. And the truth is that every time we we look into this, the bar gets lower and lower, you know, specifically for strength. But also for hypertrophy, we don't need to go into super specifics here. But there are people out there that are like trying to train five, six days a week for five, six days a week that could also see gains from from three days a week. So when we're talking about time efficient hypertrophy, I think the first thing to understand is, you know, a lot of people probably don't have to do as much as you think in terms of time allocation. If you do some of the stuff that we're gonna talk about today, you can shrink the time allocation for a weekly perspective, more and more and more, the more knobs you turn in your favor in this regard. So I do think that the first thing people say, oh, I want to be more efficient. And they're like, Well, I train six days a week, I'm like, Well, for starters, you could just do what you're already doing, like three to four days a week, and you'd still also make gains. And so just first understanding that and kind of just maybe calming down some of those expectations of all I have to do a whole lot to see any progress whatsoever. That is the first thing comes to mind for sure. Yeah,

Philip Pape 04:27

fair enough. And then it's kind of like this false alternative people have have like, I either have to do all this training and frequency and days per week, or I'm just not going to work out because you know, there's a middle ground to get the 80 90% that I'm looking for. And yeah, I've had a lot of clients that come in just doing way too much. And it's usually a it's like a, an not an obsession, but they just love going to the gym or they love doing stuff and they feel like if they don't, they're just going to lose everything. So let's talk about some of the specific techniques we can start with maybe how At a beginner, intermediate, lifter, you know, spend as little time as possible just to get great gains to begin with.

Jordan Lips 05:06

Yeah, you want to always say it in a way that might sound complicated, but then we'll break it down as you want to maximize your per set stimulus, right? If we use the number of sets I'm doing, it's just a proxy for how much time in the gym, we want each of those sets that we're doing to be maximally stimulative. So what are the things we can do to make each set more beneficial, so that we don't have to do as many of them and the biggest one by far is going closer to failure. And the closer you are to failure, the more you get on that, the more stimulus you get from that set, the less of those you'd have to do to kind of amass an amount of stimulus that you need to make gains over time. Now that there's a smidge of nuance to that but I think on average, if we're talking, hey, I don't have a lot of time, I want to make gains, guess what we're training on average, Artur, that is the biggest, most important one, by far the most. Everything we talked about today is secondary to taking resets close to failure. If you're somebody looking to save time, want to get the most stimulus per set, the best way to do that is to train freakin hard. And to go close to slash to slash beyond failure, depending on the context. And so don't leave an intensity on the table would be the would be the biggest one for sure. Yeah, I

Philip Pape 06:15

love that. And we were joking about Brian Borstein was recently on the show, we got into all the nuances of intensity techniques and things like that, but just at the principal level here training hard. How do we reconcile that with the volume and the frequency of that heart? So you know, people are asking, Well, what does that mean? Does that mean I have to do I do the compound lifts? And then I go toward failure? Do I you know, how many days per week like, we want to go to that next level? Sure.

Jordan Lips 06:44

Sure. If we and we want well, I can list out what I would do if I was speaking with someone whose goal is efficiency. And we can pick apart any of them that we'd like I think the stuff for starters, remind people that they probably need less of the less than they think if they do these things, number two would be the most important thing is going closer to failure, then the utilization of intensity techniques like drop sets, my reps, shorter rest periods in general, you can talk about Super setting lengthen partials, on average, use more compound lifts, on average, train more in the length of position of a muscle, use exercises that provide more stability, and potentially utilize lower rep ranges. If you do all of those things, your program will get a lot of stimulus per time. And you will have to spend as much time doing.

Philip Pape 07:28

So you mentioned intensity techniques, more compound lifts. That makes a lot of sense, right? More, you're using more muscle mass for fewer movements and less time training more in the lengthened position. Stability, I want to I want to dive into that one a bit. And then you said lower rep ranges, right. Yeah. Yeah, of course, stability, expound on that one. Yeah, the

Jordan Lips 07:46

more Listen, the more the less work your body and other muscles have to do to stabilize, the more output you can get at the target muscle. And so if we look at something like a back squat versus a hack squat, a hack squat takes care of a lot of the stability, you're moving on a fixed path, you don't need to stabilize the hips, the machines doing all that for you. And so you're able to get greater output in the quads. There's bad exercises, we could do more stability slash less technical, less coordination heavy. And so the more you know, I listen, I think free weights are amazing. This isn't like an anti free weights thing. But on average, if I can find a really great machine option, or a really great cable option, chances are I can get greater output there. Because I'm going to be provided the stability that normally I'd have to create internally. And so when it comes to rows, let's get a chest support. When it comes to squats, hack squat, leg press, leg extension, more controlled environments, less technique, heavy, less coordination requirements, less stability requirements, you'll get greater output at the muscle or set. That doesn't mean remember, we're talking about a spectrum, we're talking about skewing things on average, we're not talking about only doing I wouldn't say only compound, I wouldn't say only lengthen, I wouldn't say only mega high stability, perfect scenario stuff. But But on average, if you're like, Hey, I'm writing my program, should I have a hack squat? Or should I do a back squat, I only get one squat pattern for my quads. It's like, you know, the at least appeal to what would be more optimal for your quads, you'd go with the hack squat because of the additional stability because of the fact that you don't need to use hips and glutes as much. Yeah, and

Philip Pape 09:15

I totally agree. And honestly, in my personal experience lately, running some bodybuilding type training, mainly to manage fatigue for me, you know, being that I've had low back fatigue and doing a lot of the big lifts for so long. I definitely get it the counter argument people might make is, well, with the squat, you're working out so many different muscle groups. And yes, stability as part of that. That's actually by definition part of it. So why isn't that more efficient than breaking it up? Now I have to do four different movements.

Jordan Lips 09:42

Yeah, that is fair, if you're going to say, well, if I'm going to do a hack squat that's hyper biased towards the quads, or I'm going to only back squat and I'm going to make it kind of, you know, the, the I say annoying term because people aren't using it. But the term that we were taught is Omni just meaning like covers many bases, covers more than one thing and not just squatting to squat. And we're getting a decent adductor stimulus, decent quad service, decent glutes stimulus, yes, if I only get one lower body movement, it wouldn't be a hack squat, it would be a balanced, it might be a hack squat with a higher foot position, right, engage a little bit more glutes, it wouldn't be something hyper specific from a biased perspective. But I would still pick something of more stability. I mean, if I only get one lower body, let's say lengthen position movement, it's gonna be a leg press or a high foot hack squat, let's say, still, with the stability, but I just wouldn't bias towards one thing too much. And neat and not, but I don't know where your listeners are on the spectrum of like, terminology. But like, there's no such thing as like a stabilizing muscle. And when we're just talking about muscle growth, having to expend extra energy stabilizing or engaging the core, we're just talking about muscle growth, those are negatives, those are energy leaks, those are things that you're doing that are going to take away from ultimately bringing the target muscle close to failure too much, you know, I need to brace my core, I need to think about what my core is doing, you know, I need to make sure my technique doesn't break down, I mean, 99.999% of people are going to stop an RDL or a back squat, because of a technique breakdown, or core demands or breathing demands or lower back fatigue. Notice how none of those things, you know, had to do with lower body musculature. But if I asked you why you stopped doing a leg extension, it's because your quads hurt. And that's it. And so, the goal for hypertrophy is to take target muscle, or muscles close to failure, not something else. And, you know, the amount of precision that you need to target one muscle at a time becomes greater than more advanced, you get becomes more general when you're just starting out. And so that definitely is another piece of context of where people are in the journey. But but it's not, it doesn't change all that much. I think at the end of the day, we are looking for, on average, more stability, on average, more output, on average, closer to failure to get a bit more bang for the buck.

Philip Pape 11:51

So this concept of stimulus fatigue ratio, you're basically saying the denominator, the denominator, the fatigue is what we're trying to minimize here through this process and eliminate the leaks, eliminate the, I'll even say psychological effort, right with some of these high technique lifts all of it compounds into fatigue, that doesn't translate directly into our goal,

Jordan Lips 12:14

which is to build muscle not to pick that at all, because your heart isn't right. 100% right, you can you can nitpick it though, or those are all appeals to SFR to make that ratio better. But what's interesting is we're talking about efficiency. And I don't want to take it to the extreme in the sense of a full blown minimalist. But what's interesting about efficiency, when you're training with someone who's I'm, I'm looking for time efficiency, is if you look at SFR, the the F really doesn't matter that much. Because it's unlikely that in three to four days of lifting, unless they're really long workouts, which again, kind of goes against the efficiency thing, it's it's on likely that you're going to run into a fatigue endpoint. And what I mean by that is like it's, it's more about maximizing the percent stimulus I'm when we talk about maybe adding in cardio, and all of a sudden, somebody's doing a lot of training, lifting and cardio, that overall fatigue is certainly something we need to focus on. But like not to be, again, everything is nuanced. Everything is context. But if I have somebody training three days a week, there's just three days a week, 60 minutes, let's put a cap on it. There's just nothing they could do in 180 minutes per week, and I'm worried about them overtraining, unless they're in a huge deficit, and if death in the family, and they got laid off, and they're, unless you have a ton of extra life stress, I'm less concerned with the F part of that equation. And I'm more concerned with the s part of that equation. Because I just don't think, you know, you're going to sooner run into an issue of I'm not progressing because my stimulus isn't high enough, then I'm not progressing because my fatigue to

Philip Pape 13:38

that totally fair point, right. And maybe the fatigue comes in when you're violating the whole premise here, which is you're not being efficient, and you're using too much volume. Also intermediate or advanced lifters who are maybe, you know, incorporating big lifts or things like that, like that. That's where I come from sometimes. What about the rank beginner, who, you know, we talked about a lot of times here, just maybe focus on strength and compound lifts initially, because they're simple, they're effective, you recover fast as a beginner, but I know there's some counterpoints to that when your goal is specifically to build muscle. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah,

Jordan Lips 14:13

I think the truth is that they're the things that are better for building muscle or better for building muscle for everyone all the time. And it's like saying, Oh, do beginners need to be in a calorie surplus, it's like, they'll build muscle just a lot faster, just like everyone else does in a surplus. So I agree with your initial statement of like, Well, I agree with the sentiment from your initial statement was that if these things matter less, they matter less because no matter what someone does, it's above the minimum effective threshold for growth. It's like, you know, if you're just starting to learn a language, go grab Duolingo or something on your phone and like you'll be you'll be infinitely better than you are today in a week. But that's still not a great tool if you want to be if you want to be fluent and that might you know, that might not matter in the first week in the first month, but at some point you're like, oh, this tool is no longer meet no longer taking me further, I need something else. And so in the big anything anything is is enough for you to grow. And so these nuances, they certainly matter less, but they are applied equally. So like I have a rank beginner is like I want to grow muscle as optimally as possible, or as efficiently as possible. I'm like, Great, let's, let's use the leg press. And if we do that, that person still has, let's use three by 60 minutes, that's just like a rough proxy for someone who's trying to train efficiency efficiently, I'm gonna use that person's 880 minutes a week, the same way, it just, they can lose less sleep over whether or not they've been doing something else for a while a lot of people that come into the hypertrophy space, they discovered that as a term, and they're like, Oh, my God, I need to be only doing these high stability machines. And it's like, okay, like, you're probably you probably haven't left a ton of gains, or you very least have been gaining just fine without this stuff for a very, very long time. And so the principles all still apply in a relative sense, were like a beginner will still grow way better. And a surplus, a beginner will still grow better with the same things that you know, Arnold would be growing better with, but it just matters less in the sense of you can probably make gains that you're satisfied with without worrying about something. Okay,

Philip Pape 16:04

yeah. And to be even more specific, where I was going with that is the idea that there has to be some foundation of strength to really push the hypertrophy movements. And I know there's a little bit of a an assumption there that that's flawed. Maybe but that that's the argument that's made, right. Yeah,

Jordan Lips 16:20

I you still finding that you're saying that is that I have a man who said we're just gonna take a small d I'm gonna derail us for just one second. It's all good. And I have a clip from the mind pump guys basically making this like just react, just want to talk about this. And so I have a clip of, of the mind pump guys basically saying like, the best thing you could do for muscle growth is like spend a lot of years getting strong, just like, literally makes no sense at all, as if they're two totally different things. As if you're not getting stronger doing hypertrophy, as if there's some base of strength that potentiate greater hypertrophy later, it doesn't derail us again, that they just had Dave Asprey on the podcast and and I kind of went off in the comments section, and there's like, 900 notifications of people ripping me apart in there, which is hysterical, but I don't know where they're going with that. But anyway, anyway, anyway, this idea that you need a strength base, just it's just like, it's more of this like, romanticized being from like, the old 70s and 80s. And clanging and banging the weights around before you can get into the nitty gritties is not true at all, like, you know, there's hypertrophy and strength in the beginning, are there overlap? Imagine a Venn diagram, the overlap is like, basically completely overlapped in the beginning, you're getting stronger and building muscle as fast as humanly possible, simultaneously, for a very long time. And then if you want to diverge into more strength related pursuits, then yes, they diverge, you know, the further you do something, but you certainly don't need to be like, Oh, I should be focusing on sets of three to five in the beginning, because I'm a beginner and I should focus on getting strong first, it's just, you just, there's no rationale for that at all. I mean, if you want to build them, I mean, what could be a rationale for that? Just psychologically, maybe there's something cool to expose people to like, you know, heavy hard sets, maybe there's something psychologically there, but I actually think even more so. Working with more moderate loads in moderate rep ranges, probably more beginner friendly. So you don't need a strength base, you're gonna get stronger doing hypertrophy. Sometimes I'll have people in my group, which is, it's literally called the hypertrophy. Alright. So like, obviously, that's our goal. And I'll have people come in and you know, they're like, Well, I really was really hoping we'd focus on strength. I'm like, you should be doing that. Every time you come to the gym. You did eight last week, for nine. Like what even is strength? Strength is a vague thing, like strength is a contextual word like strength at what like, do you want to get better at a one rep max, deadlift is that strength? What about an eight rep max? RDL?

Philip Pape 18:48

Right, right. Yeah, you're right. You know, it's like the specificity aspect of it, I think, is what people talking about with strength, right in the low rep range. But you're right, there's, you know, my coach, Andy Baker comes originally from the starting strength world that definitely has broadened into what we're talking about. And, you know, he's makes the argument that if you if you work, your leg press, it won't translate directly to a max PR squat the next day, but once you get the neuromuscular adaptation back, you'll get there quickly. Yeah, yeah,

Jordan Lips 19:13

that's, that's a site and again, you got your your added context was translate to a backs back squat, which with that added context changes the game for sure. So

Philip Pape 19:23

maybe one or two more things around this aspect of time efficiency. What about splits? We talked about minimalism in terms of number of days, what do splits look like that for say, beginner, intermediate, intermediate versus advanced? You know, do we like you said, you do need five or six days at some point, or can you be pretty effective at say for once your intermediate

Jordan Lips 19:42

forever? Yeah, that's a good question. I think if I am my I'm a bit of a bit of a cynic, maybe even a bit of a nihilist with this sort of thing where I think that you know, if you are a beginner that you grow with anything, grow with two days a week, grow three days a week. me for a very, very, very, very, very long time you can grow with three days a week, especially if you're doing some of the stuff we talked about four days a week, starts to be the muddy water of like, maybe this is all you'll ever need. But if I was like, you know, someone puts a gun to my head, like, hey, like, you need to be the biggest possible human you could ever be. I probably would train more than that. But I think over a 10 to 15 year span, a training career, so to speak. I think that the four day we trainee and the five or six day a week trainee who have been doing all the right things, all else being equal look, look indistinguishable from each other outside of on stage. And so I think that there's a bit of a I know in my trading career right now I know what I would have to do to get a little bit bigger is such a bad ROI. It's I'm at such a diminishing returns point, I'm not even that big, I already think my diminishing, I'd have to be in gaining phases for most of the year, I'd need to be up in the five, six days a week push really pushing my maximum recoverable volume not doing nearly as much cardio, and I probably would get bigger, for sure. But I do think that if you get to four days a week, I'll be honest, it's probably very practically speaking, I think, outside of people who want to look like bodybuilders. And the image you have in your head of the body you want can be achieved three to four days a week. And outside of like, I want to be looked like this person who has IFBB pro underscore on their name, you know, yeah,

Philip Pape 21:26

and then extrapolating that because it's not, you know, it's not so much the number of days so much as what the number of days get to you. And so if someone's schedule was like, they have a home gym, and, you know, so they're not commuting, and they have much, they don't have very much time for their sessions, could a five or six day kind of spread out the fatigue program match a four day program in that sense. Absolutely.

Jordan Lips 21:49

I mean, without a doubt, I actually quite like this approach for people with home gyms. I quite like this for myself for a while I train seven days a week for a while. And then I went to six days a week for a while, well, what maybe two to three exercises a session maybe like 20 minute sessions. And it worked fantastically well. I mean, there was emotionally looking at that workout, there was never a moment where I was like, Oh, I can't get through incline dumbbell press, single arm, half kneeling, pull down bicep curl, you know, there's just there was never like something that had happened to me where I'm like, I can't put 20 minutes in. And so that made that was really accessible. I do find that psychologically, it wasn't my favorite over the long term. It was really great to experiment. But I really liked having, like when it comes to, there's almost like a buy in fee in terms of fatigue, where for me, it was like, you know, after doing that, for many months, I was, I started to add in some cardio, which I'm sure will transition to at some point. But it felt like a lot of two days. Now all of a sudden, were just when I was looking at that as again, instead of doing this for six days, even if they're more like these workouts, snacks, again, total work across the week, equating to let's say, you know, 180 minutes across the weeks, I'm four by 45, or three by 60. This was like six by 30. Right? 180 Cool, good math. Once I started incorporating some cardio, it felt like I was having two days all the time, which psychologically now that started to take a toll. But you're kind of initial comment of like, okay, but what, you know, days per week doesn't really tell us much. It's a proxy for work, potentially. But someone's like I'm training six days a week, they're doing two exercises per day. That is not a high volume program, even if it's a high frequency split, let's say so you're 100% right, what the total work you do across the week matters. By far the most, the only way to really violate that is to try and squeeze a five day work program with like 25 Plus working sets into one workout. But I've seen people do pretty well on like twice a week, two hour sessions. Yes, I think that there's plenty of arguments that there's probably some percentage of gains left on the table again, because that's a pretty extreme example, but it does have you know, whether we're talking about three or four or five, I think how you split it up is less important than do you get the work done. Yeah,

Philip Pape 24:00

no, cool. I want people to be aware of that. And also not violate it in the other direction by saying, Well, I'm going to work out six days a week for 90 minutes each day, because that's not what we're talking about. The other thing you mentioned was like, if you have six or seven days, like you pretty much can't have any zero days or else your schedule gets off. And that's the psychological part. I'm guessing you're talking about where it's just you got to be super, super consistent, constantly. Yep. So cycled between things can be helpful. All right. So cardio, first of all, what is the role of cardio? If you're not an endurance athlete, but you're prioritizing hypertrophy, because that's the assumption I want to make the start.

Jordan Lips 24:35

Yeah, why do you think that there's a whole host of theoretical, physiological routes, we can go with this conversation. But I will start with saying I don't think there is any and I know it's a bit of bit of an absolute. And I'll probably walk it back from that as far as an absolute statement, but I actually think that there's like, for hypertrophy, you're just free to rest a little longer if you want. So we're talking about like, Hey, I only care about means should I do cardio? Not really, you know, you should do it for general health because a generally healthy person probably builds muscle a bit better. But if you're not watching this on YouTube, I'm squinting pretty hard when I say that. And so I think this should be I think, when we talk about cardio, how

Philip Pape 25:16

old are you squinting? Because like, if you're lifting and have that lifestyle, you're generally healthy. No,

Jordan Lips 25:21

no, no, I'm saying because I don't think that it's going to make you better at hypertrophy in any meaningful fashion.

Philip Pape 25:29

Okay, so even even even the word capacity and all of that you don't think has, I

Jordan Lips 25:32

think the word capacity shows up in your ability to recover between sets. So from an efficiency standpoint, I get, let's say I do split squats, and I do my right leg. Man, at my worst peak, 30 pounds heavier than I've been here, no cardio 220 pounds, I rest three minutes between legs, I do one leg, I lay down on the back on my back on the floor. Now in the best cardiovascular shape I've ever been in, which is to say, like, average, across like a population level. You know, I could do 75 seconds, I could do 60 seconds, you know, I could train that my right leg really freaking hard and be kind of ready to go again pretty soon. So my ability to do more work in a short span of time is better. So efficiency can improve efficiency. Look at that, like this, like better work capacity. It's interesting is better work capacity. The implication is I can do more work now. But I'd be interested if the ability to do more work is one of those physiological adaptations that have made you able to do more work, as that also turns you into a person who has to do more work. Right. If we talk about some of the adaptations from an a&p CAE perspective, from a fiber type perspective, I don't even think they're all that meaningful. I'm already transcending into something I don't think matters. But I don't think, Oh, I'm in better cardiovascular shape. Thus, I can do more work. We've already decided we are talking about this, this in the context of a bit of efficiency. And so the ability to do more work, it's like, Yeah, but I'm already capped for time. And so I think this matters more from going in a state of poor health to a state of generally better health. So if we're talking about somebody who's, who has obesity, potentially not in a metabolically healthy place, if we get them to a place where they improve their cardiovascular fitness, they can now probably survive an hour of hard training. But if you're already kind of a generally healthy person who can do an hour of lifting without, like keeling over, like getting an even better cardiovascular shape. I don't see how that makes you better at hypertrophy. I'm the biggest advocate of people doing cardio. So let's just like get that out of the way. I'm, that's like, I'm a complete cardio. Yeah, we

Philip Pape 27:32

can talk. Yeah, no, we can get into that. But yeah,

Jordan Lips 27:34

yeah, not, I'm not sold on that as an aspect, I guess.

Philip Pape 27:37

And you know, I want to connect to that in like with real world examples here, because a lot of my clients are longtime lifters who want to work on their nutrition. Some of them have desk jobs. So they get like 3000 steps a day, there were their resting heart rate isn't as low as it could be. Right. They have some of the lower cardiovascular health, but it hasn't really slowed them down. And that is kind of what you're saying. It really hasn't. I want to say sir, walking a little more, they get a little bit healthier. They don't get out of breath as much. But like you said, maybe it doesn't quite move the needle, unless you're coming from a very obese, very sedentary situation. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. So then if there's not much of a, let's say, positive, other than a little bit of this in between set, recovery, what other reason we have cardio or, you know, should we do cardio? What's the dosage like that? That's where I'm going because, and also fat, fat loss versus gaining because people think of it as a cardio or a calorie burning thing, which we know there's a lot of misconceptions there as well. So yeah, go down all that rabbit hole. Cool.

Jordan Lips 28:36

I've just closed the book on that. Just to clarify, before I have the pitchforks out, it's like, I just don't think that the average person who's only like, if someone's like, I'm doing cardio, I'm like, What are you doing before and they're like, so I can get more jacked. It's like, there's the I don't think that there's a direct route that you can point me towards, but moving to like, why you should do it. general health. I mean, general health is a bit vague, cardiovascular fitness pulmonary function, just like every other. Like, if you think of health as a pie chart, and you think of all of the things you could do, and having a full pie chart, every kind of sliver filled is the optimally healthy person. The truth is, and I've been, you know, I grew up as a very hypertrophy focused, complete, you know, egomaniac only cared about how I looked like, which by the way is great, it kind of whatever, it served me as like a young 20 year old idiot. Like, you know, if somebody were to ask me, Hey, Jordan, I lift and I eat nutritious foods. I don't have too much body fat, and you know, I get, you know, a decent amount of steps, but that's it. I don't do any cardio. Is that enough to be optimally healthy? The technical answer is no, because you use the word optimally. If you said is that enough to be generally healthy, I'm good, go to my doctor and have good blood markers. Absolutely. And if people are trained four days a week, get 10,000 steps. eat nutritious foods try not to have too much body fat and are doing just fantastically well. I think that is if we talked about the pie chart, filling it a ton. It's a filling that pie chart a ton, but that pie Listen, there's this blank sliver here and it's covered by something more intense than walking, right, some sort of cardio more intense by walking and then even that sliver is balanced a sliver like a small sliver, it's actually quite a big sliver in terms of optimal, the pursuit of optimal health is going to be covered by some form of higher intensity, higher, just meaning higher than walking the dog. And so I think for general health, we're talking Listen, CDC physical activity guidelines, we're talking 150 minutes of low to moderate intensity cardio, which for some people could just be intentional walking, risk walking, other Morfitt people, just on average for that person is going to mean maybe zone two training. And then we're 75 minutes of vigorous exercise, which is, you know, whatever more in that like, north of zone to jogging sports, something where you're, you know, really get your heart rate up huffing and puffing so 150 minutes, low to moderate 75 minutes. vigorous exercise is, you know, the CDC guidelines for physical activity and what's funny is like, people were like really anti government recommendations for stuff the RDA for protein sucks the RDA for salt sucks, like, we can have those chats, but they get this one spot on and spot if you are like a confused person for where to start. 150 minutes a week of low to moderate intensity cardio and two days per week lifting bad is their recommendation and it is incredible and they get it so spot on. I just chuckled because I feel like I feel like there's just such an anti like governmental government recommendations when it comes to health, but they really do get that spot on.

31:29

Hi, my name is Alan. And I just want to give a shout out to Philip Pape of Wits & Weights for being a huge part of the foundation for my continued health and well being. Philip exemplifies a nutrition coach who demonstrates how much he cares. Phillip works tirelessly, and with dedication to provide coaching support and major content for us to use. He creates a practical approach from research. And Phillip empowers all of us to use food as quality for our health. He is skilled in how to assess and direct nutrition. Phillip creates a community full of wisdom, support and camaraderie. In summary, Philip Pape is the real deal. He knows how to assess in direct nutrition, and he continues to steer me in the right direction. Thank you, Phil.

Philip Pape 32:20

So if we were to extrapolate a person's lifetime, right, let's say they're that they're a lifter, they lift three this week, they get 10,000 steps, they eat nutritiously. They get enough sleep, their stress is good. Longevity wise, because that's the other people argument people make or maybe there's complicated things going on at the cellular level with mitochondria with everything else, right? Is Is there anything that says hey, you're gonna miss out or you're going to like die five years unit sooner or something like that without having some little more vigorous cardio in there. We don't have

Jordan Lips 32:49

a longitudinal study of people who didn't do any cardio and another group who did just like looking into like a, like looking into those people's lives for the last 25 years seeing when they die. We don't necessarily have that. But we do have a non perfect piece of data that vo two max is the correlates the greatest it's the single greatest correlate to healthy aging to longevity is VO two Max, not muscle mass and I'm not muscles again, muscle is the fucking Fountain of Youth man, I'm big, biggest again, biggest advocate of lifting. It's just like, there's nothing like it. It's completely unique. You need to be doing it. And I wouldn't. There's a lot of people who are like, let's say more on the cardio is way better side of things, which I'm not that will hang their hat on this research of hey, VO two max is the single greatest correlate to healthy aging that we have. And it's a correlate. You know, people who live longer probably also have healthy beauty maxes. And so, you know, there's a bit of healthy user bias maybe. And so it's it's not, it's not a human randomized control trial. It's not a 30 year cohort study. It's not like this amazing, amazing thing, but like it is can't really get away from the fact that improving your VO to max is whatever and VO to max doesn't need to be complicated. Let's use that as a proxy for cardiovascular fitness. Who cares? People with good cardiovascular fitness. That's like an amazing correlate for healthy aging. And so it's really hard to reconcile that.

Philip Pape 34:08

Okay, so then the other side, fine. Yeah, and I'm totally on board with all of that, because I don't want to start telling my clients, you need to do three HIIT sessions a week, or you're gonna just die young. The other side is what the interference effect. And we know, we know, that's been overblown as well, but there is some negative from too much cardio, I would suspect so. And also depending on your recovery capacity, your age, and also if you're gaining or losing, given all of that, like what is general recommendation for dosing, if you want to have that in there, maybe because you enjoy it, maybe just because you'd like to do it or you're doing a sport, something like that.

Jordan Lips 34:42

Yeah, I'll start by saying, you know, you're doing too much if you start to regress, and I don't want to just be myopic and very reductionist and make it all about that, but the greatest indication of recovery is performance, and so am I can consistently performing, you know, and that means ability to progress that stuff. And so if we were to take a hypothetical of a person who lifts who wants to do some cardio, how do they know they're doing too much. And it's like, if you start showing up to your lifts, and you can't progress, and you start to regress, and I don't just mean as a one off, by the way, that shit happens, you know, you have a day, you know, something didn't progress you match last week, no worries, I'm talking about a trend of regression, a trend of, of feeling fatigued trend of showing up to the gym not being able to match what you did the previous week, that is a sign of, I'm doing more on average than I can recover from. Now, you can blame the cardio there, but it is technically more of like your cup is full with, with ever from everything you've poured into it. And if you care about lifting, then you'd look at the cardio as hey, that's interfering with what I really want. If you're an average lifter, and you're like, Hey, I hear Jordan talking about this like sliver of health thing that I should probably care about, but but I really like statically care about getting jacked, and I'm short on time, where do I put my eggs, I would start with, if you had two days of cardio, one of them, I would do low intensity zone to training one of them, I would do something higher, something in the zone 345 I think there's a lot of room for not needing to be so crazy with where you are in that context. But I think that there are adaptations that happen at higher intensities, that that happened much better there. And there are adaptations at a low intensity that, you know, the biggest benefit of doing low intensity cardio is it's less likely to interfere with your lifting. There's all this talk about So in true training, there's so much hype right now, the biggest benefit of zone two is that it has an elite SFR is you can do so much zone you can do and benefit from so much the way by coach Alex viata. Shout out Massmart describe zone two as it has a really low floor in terms of how much you need to do and get a benefit. And it has no ceiling. And so it's like you can do 30 minutes of Zone Two, and it's helpful and not fatiguing. And you can do 300 minutes a week or zone two and not get tired. And it's it's not so black and white. Technically everything has a fatigue cost. But practically speaking, if you're a lifter who's like, Man, I don't want I don't want to do that thing Jordan just said where I show up to my lifts and I can't progress. Cool. Start with some zone two sessions, which just means slightly, slightly more intense than going out for a walk in the park. You know, some incline walking, you know, for doing Stairmaster a little bit faster, some biking like something that's a little bit more intense than walking the dog.

Philip Pape 37:28

Maybe rucking. Yeah. So now we'll explore that a little bit. I heard you talking about the SFR of endurance activities. I think that may be on Jeff's podcast, I thought it was a nice, parallel, because we always use it in the lifting world. And I think they have more well established understanding of that, if anything in the Cardio World. But if, let's say in a fat loss phase, recovery capacity is limited. And you're trying to keep that expenditure relatively high. And you normally would get, say 10 to 15,000 steps. Would it be more effective from an SFR perspective than to replace some of those steps with zone two in this context and get more for your time? Without added fatigue?

Jordan Lips 38:05

Yeah, definitely. Oh, my God, definitely, I think if you're, if you're someone who normally gets on the treadmill and walks at three miles an hour, and you're looking for a way to not cost yourself more time, but get more benefit, yeah, walk at three miles an hour on a 10 incline, get your heart rate, whatever, you know, roughly in like 120 to 150, it could differ for people who've been helping telling clients that like, Hey, I'm not, we're not necessarily looking for an addition of another session. But when you're already going for a walk outside, you know what if you jog for 30 seconds, five times throughout the walk, and you were able to just reach up and get a little bit of that benefit that's at higher that you can only get at higher intensities. You know, I really am a probably said this on just podcast. But every time we talk about cardio as a person who comes from a lifting background has a big community that is very lifting dominant, we run the risk of making people feel like they have another thing they have to do. And I know this is great. Trust me, I have a great chat here about efficiency like you're super in, Your Honor, you obviously work with real people, because that's where you're coming from here. And so I really do think that Okay, guys, listen, we're not trying to say you need to go ahead and all of a sudden do five days or zone two, but maybe look at, it's like when people are trying to increase their portion of their protein intake. It's like, before we freak out or anything, take the protein you're already eating and increase the portion size, scale it up. Right. And so that's kind of what we're saying here. If you already get on the elliptical, 510 minutes, let's say you do like, let's say you do like a five minute warm up before your session. Maybe it's 15 minutes now and it's sewn to and maybe on the back end of that you throw another 15 minutes and it's slightly faster. The thing about Zone Two is like actually challenging Zone Two is more boring than it is hard like you're done with a zone two session and you can't wait to get off more because you're like kind of just want to go do other things less because you're like knackered I don't know why I've never said knackered in my whole life but that's the word we're gonna go it's cool.

Philip Pape 39:52

Oh, man, that was a word used on the other podcast, I thought was like the word of the day. You must have like a thesaurus ready to go with it was concomitant ly Yeah, let's go. Okay, well, one more cardio question and that is during the fat loss phase how what are your just general thoughts on using cardio for expenditure? When you can fit it in? Is it anything beyond what we just talked about? Because some people again, I think overdo it.

Jordan Lips 40:15

Yeah, I definitely think some people overdo it, I would put at the top of that hierarchy of like steps as a proxy for overall movement. And certainly the thing that I would talk about most get X amount of steps, do it in a way that you enjoy that feels sustainable. Let's have a discussion about fatigue. If you're first to answer to that question, have you doing nothing but a ton of high intensity sprinting and running because then I think we might be looking at some fatigue bleeding over. But I'm way more concerned with people getting enough total movement in a way they enjoy that feels sustainable. Before I'm worried about what and how they're doing that. I think I've been more open to the idea of, hey, if you always walk, what have you tried doing some so to like, it's rare that I'll encourage somebody to change what they're doing. If they're already getting like eight to 12,000 steps, like I'm super pumped that you're, that's a very active person. But there is something to be said, maybe when people who are even more active like, just walk all they do is walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk 15,000 steps, there. And if they are looking for, they're like looking under a rug for something to help them push fat loss a bit more, maybe they've hit a plateau and they don't want to go lower calories. There is some I'll take a complete flier, I'm putting a million disclaimers here because I don't think it's a big deal. But But changing what you're doing based on a theoretical efficiency that you've built doing that thing. So if you just walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, walk, you're getting 15,000 steps a day, Man, am I going to tell you to go to 20 and just walk even more, you're probably so efficient at that movement that those next 5000 steps, that's a 33% increase, you're not getting an extra 33% calorie burn off, it's a lot less. So maybe I'm like, hey, you've been Walk, walk, walk, walk walk at like zone one more like just just getting like movement throughout the day. What if you did a couple days of higher intensity a couple of ways and so on to maybe you change the modality, you don't even have them to higher intensity, you're like, Oh, you were walking let's bike, let's do something you're a little less efficient at. And efficiency is great for performance. It's less good when you're trying to burn calories, which true. We're not trying to make cardio all about that. But I also think in the same breath like, that is a good thing. Cardio does like it let's be real like It's like moving more as if you're like, yes or no moving more will correlate better with like weight maintenance, like yes, but I wouldn't want like getting super hyper focused on the calorie burn side. Nice.

Philip Pape 42:34

I think there's a really important message for people to hear, because we do hear that a lot. I've had people say, Well, I'm doing 20 or 25,000 steps like oh, you know, how much compensations probably going on to it's it's the exact same thing. And yeah, I've heard that argument before. If you if you're really clumsy at biking, you never do it go bike because you're going to be burning a ton more calories per work put in. So yeah, great, great ideas. And you're sort of quotable from this section that I liked that was just very simply put was the greatest indication of recoveries performance, you just want people to remember that, because that is a great, self limiting thing that you can experiment with and measure. All right, metabolic adaptation. Let's get into that moment here. I've talked about this on the show many times, and but I enjoy the brutally clear way that you explain it, especially the fact that it just exists, you know, we can't change that it exists. And people misconstrue that concept with behaviors and lifestyles and things that you can do around the fact that that adaptation exists. So what is it? Why or why doesn't it matter? And what should we really put our energy into carrying about?

Jordan Lips 43:38

Cool, good. Let's see, let's keep it succinct, keep the vocab going. Metabolic adaptation means when we're talking about in the context of fat loss, is the reduction in metabolic rate beyond which you'd expect from the weight loss alone. So if you were 200 pounds, and you're now 150, like you're a smaller machine that requires less energy, metabolic adaptation as well, based on mathematically, how much we would predict how much less energy we think you would need based on the fact that your record is the size, we see that there's an additional reduction in metabolic rate beyond which you'd expect from just the weight loss alone. So that is what metabolic adaptation. The reason I and I think metabolic adaptation and hormones are fascinating to learn about fascinating to talk about and should never come up in your brain as a regular person. Like it's just they're simultaneously fascinating, but also not anything they are. They are things that like that we won't go to hormone side, let's stay let's stay focus here, Jordan, or metabolic adaptation perspective. It's just the truth is like, the things that you should be really focused on are modifiable variable. And so like, you know, except the things you cannot change all that that whole quote thing, but like you can't do anything about metabolic adaptation. You know, you can do things is to continue to see success in the face of metabolic adaptation. But as an isolated variable, you can't affect metabolic adaptation, you can do things like lift weights, you can do things like cuts, maintaining muscle, you know, gives you that slight, slight slight benefit of having more muscle, you can maintain a step count, because what we see is that the greatest reduction, the greatest portion, where reduction happens is in your subconscious movement. So if subconscious movement is going down subconscious, by definition is something you can't do anything about. You can manually override by making sure you're hitting your step count. And so you can do things to make metabolic adaptation less of an issue, but you can't do anything to affect it. And the reason I think that's such an important distinction is because there is so much rhetoric around fixing a damaged metabolism, healing, metabolic adaptation, reversing metabolic adaptation, like there's just nothing, no reason to believe that that's even possible. While it is possible, but it's just not ever, it should never be the thing you're trying to do. Metabolic adaptation exists when you when you go into a calorie deficit, your body doesn't know if that's a starvation million years ago, or a voluntary calorie deficit and 2024. And so process has happened down regulation of thyroid and sex hormones, cortisol goes up, you know, hunger signals go up all of that, but you can't do anything about it. Now, you can do practical things to make your fat loss phase more successful, but they don't have anything to do with blunting metabolic adaptation, or reverse dieting at the end to heal metabolic adaptation. And the reason I'm so bullish on this is because if this was an area of research that we didn't know a lot about, and we were doing a lot of like mechanistic speculation of like, oh, this would make sense. And, you know, metabolism can upregulate Emily have a ton of research, metabolism can up regulate, and I can word vomit on that. But if this was something we weren't quite sure about, and we were really trying to fill the gaps with something we think made sense. And this kind of, you know, has some people out there who have had experiences like this. Fine. But we do have a ton of research on this. Like we have a ton of we have boatloads we could seek the Titanic with the amount of research we have on weight loss and weight regain, and changes in metabolism when people do that. And so that that, to me is something that Eric Trexler opened my eyes to in the last couple of years of like, you know what, like, if this was something we weren't all that sure about, like I would, I could change my tone and accept people making like logical leaps. But we have a ton of research that and when I say ton of research, what I mean is that the idea of alright, what are my biggest gripes here? Let me get the gripes out on the stage is that if you are if you go into a calorie deficit, you lose weight, and then you gain that weight back, there is an idea that if you keep doing that, that you will have a reduced metabolic rate. That is not something we see in the literature, we see the complete cessation, the complete reversal, the complete undoing of metabolic adaptation all the way back to baseline when people regain the weight back. And so this idea of you're not losing weight, because of metabolic adaptation, or because you were a chronic Dieter are because you're a chronic under eater, and you've damaged metabolism, and you have to eat more, so that you can fix it. It's, it's, it's that I don't even remember what this guy's name is. Oh, my God, it's so depressing. The like, it never happened to guy but like, it never happened. It's made up like,

Philip Pape 48:14

yeah, I don't know, my writer,

Jordan Lips 48:17

I'm not sure what to say. But like, that just doesn't happen. That's just not a thing. And my last gripe with that is I like, there are people out there listening to this right now. They're like, Jordan, that's not true. That's what happened to me, I increased my calories. And I started losing weight, or I increased my calories. And then I was able to go down and cut at higher calories. So they have a lived experience that seems to go counter to what I'm saying. And I love that for you. I'm so happy when someone's like, no, Jordan, I was eating 1200 every day. And then my coach reversed it up to 2000. And now I'm cutting on 1700 and losing weight. I'm so happy for that person. But I've mean this in the nice way. Like that did not happen. Like, technically that did not happen. Your experience totally happened. But you were not eating 1200 and by going by changing your targets in my fitness palette 2000 What What actually happened was you were able to be more consistent, actually adhere to your calories, and actually probably reduce the average calories you weren't eating, you are eating because at 1200 You benched every six, seven that day on the weekend, are you forgetting calories here and there? And so I just think metabolic adaptation isn't something you can do anything about it exists in differing amounts we we have it's highly genetic, highly individual. And it's not stopping you from losing weight. It's not the reason you're overweight. I'm not not sympathetic to the fact that weight loss is hard. All I'm saying is that's not the boogeyman I agree with everyday

Philip Pape 49:41

man. I mean, I did an episode A while back called Why reverse dieting doesn't work like you think because the same thing Trexler was actually on the show. We talked about that and you know I use recovery dieting with folks all the time. It's it works wonders. Just come right back to maintenance. It's the best way to recover. So a few things come to mind. First, you mentioned that you can't do anything my metabolism your baseline metabolism, right, you can definitely change your neat, which, like you said is the thing that unconsciously goes down and actually made me think of our cardio conversation because I like to track cardio and steps separately sometimes because if people add cardio, their steps will go down, often, right? Compensating, even when they don't realize it, even though cardio is a proxy for steps. But there's a hint Greg Knuckles was talking about it on stronger by science recently, the tolerance that we have for BMR in the population around the the mean that calculators tell us is like 800 calories. But for any individual, it hardly changes right over your entire lifetime until you're like in your 60s and 70s. And it starts to drop. And that could be because of muscle mass. Anyway, that's one. And then I did want to ask you a question. However, because this comes up, you know, we want to keep the rate of loss reasonable when we're in a dieting phase, not just for the sustainability of it, right, but also the the metabolic adaptation or the loss of muscle mass, we don't want to lose too much muscle, does metabolic adaptation accelerate, you know, is there like a curve? Where if you go too quickly, the adaptation above and beyond? Like you said, the weight loss changes? Or is it fairly linear? Like to give me an answer that,

Jordan Lips 51:08

yeah, absolutely, you should have Martin McDonald come on and talk about this. It's like a rubber band, metabolic adaptations, like a rubber band, if you pull a rubber band back three inches fast of it's actually a bad example, because if you let pull it back fast and let go quickly, then it will react with the stronger force. But if I pull it back quickly, three inches and hold it there, where I pull back slowly, three inches and hold it there, there's the same amount of tension on this rubber band. And so this idea of like, all your gear, gotta be go, I have more time. If you're like, we want to rant rant more on this, but this idea of, you're gonna go so low, in cat don't go so low in calories, because then you'll have nowhere to go. I just doesn't make any sense at all. It's I'm not saying to diet aggressively. I think there's practical reasons not to go aggressive for sure. But it's not because Oh, you'll adapt, and then you'll have nowhere to go, you know what the biggest adaptations that you'll make to 1000 calories. A ton of weight loss, like the biggest adaptation we make is the accrual of or loss of tissue, muscle tissue, fat tissue, all tissue. And so if you're like, you know, two and a pound person, and there's someone out there, like don't go to 1000 calories, because it's going to tank your metabolism, or you're going to adapt too quickly, and you'll have nowhere to go, you will adapt a lot quickly. At 100 By the time you're 150 pounds, so

Philip Pape 52:20

you'll lose a much better way to Yeah, now. Now, again, that's

Jordan Lips 52:23

not a suggestion. It's only just to remember the calorie number you choose to use. That's just not a factor in your decision making. I'm even more bullish on the muscle loss isn't a factor in the decision. And that's, I think that's a contestable thing that I happen to stand on the side of, I don't care if you lose, you know, if you lose 20 pounds, and more of it is muscle. I think you've gained those four pounds of muscle back in the next four months of training and eating with more food, so I'm not too worried about it. I think if you can avoid losing muscle, you absolutely should. But if I have a client who's you know, going to perform better on their overall calories on point five grams per pound of protein? Again, I think from a satiety perspective, I do not see them higher from the other practical. Yeah, for muscle building perspective, I'd nudge them higher. But if they're bullish, I'm like, I don't want to eat that much. And I'll do my calories, but I'm not eating them. Okay, great. I'm not worried about using muscle, you're gonna lose 20 pounds, you're gonna be super mega happy, as long as you're training. I mean, the training stimulus is like, infinitely more stimulative towards muscle growth than the deficit is catabolic than the protein is anabolic. Yeah, I'm not worried about short term deficits causing muscle loss. I'm worried if you're a chronic lifter, you know, I mean, if you're a lifetime lifter, then this is just a non issue that we're looking at a graph of like, that would be going up in lifting. It's like you're digging a hole. And every time the hole gets deeper, you're building more muscle. It's like, okay, for this one deficit, you kicked a little dirt in the hole, but like, you're still digging, so okay, the dirt went in the hole. And, you know, the next three months, you're still bigger than you were before. So I'm not so worried about that. Yeah, bodybuilders

Philip Pape 53:53

show us it can be done over and over again. Don't get down to crazy leanness over, you know, eight month long cuts. And it still works. And it's funny because Dr. Bill Campbell is on he's gonna be on next week as well. We're gonna talk about rapid fat loss because he's doing all that research. Yeah, she's amazing. And I think was able to survive. He say his name, you know who I'm talking about. He was recently talking about the exact thing you said where, and maybe we shouldn't be so concerned about the muscle loss if you're training hard. And if you want to go more aggressively, just do it. If you want to go 1.2 1.5% And you can handle it, do it. Now. There's the practical and sustainability factors where, you know, most of my clients, I'm not going to do that with them. But occasionally, lifters Yeah, we'll do that two week, you know, super fast microcut get them out. And like you said, Yeah, metabolic adaptation increases with sodas, the weight loss, you're kind of getting one for the other. And when I look at people's expenditure curves, generally it just trends fairly linear in parallel with their weight loss. So it's not like it's dropping away down below the rate of rate loss. Okay. I was gonna ask you a bunch of questions about like, rate of loss and stuff, but I mean, people have heard that a million times here. or what else about metabolic adaptation? Do we want to address because there's the psychological aspect? You know, you talked about the one of the illusions, I think Trexler called them the illusions of it. Diet breaks, refeeds, things like that, you know, we talked about on the show that these are mainly psychological. Do you agree that 100% That's what they're for? Or is there some other benefit?

Jordan Lips 55:18

No, I think your psychological and I probably was, there was a period of my coaching where I went really hard on that rhetoric and treated, listen, let's be real, like, the goal is to get your clients the best success that they can. And that means I got really bullish about, Hey, you don't need to die breaks unless you need to. And what that means is like, the implication is we're going to die with an open ended timeframe until you feel like shit. And then we'll die break. All right, and then we'll die break on any timescale we want. Maybe it's a day at maintenance, two days of maintenance, three days of maintenance, you know, the shout to Bill Campbell, brilliant man, but his diet refeed study had some flaws. And I don't think that for the average person, it makes any difference physiologically. But I said circled back around recently, just an alternative appeal to psychology saying, maybe people do better with loose timelines. And so I couldn't bind them to the two of them. And I'd say, hey, like, we're starting this diet. I'll first ask, Do you have something on the calendar, a life event that we could shoot for and say, Hey, let's take a break them. And if we're along the way and you feel like crap, let's take a break. And so giving people a light at the end of the tunnel, but keeping the door open is as Ben become my new mentality and on the metabolic adaptation thing, things that I'd be remiss if we didn't say would be there's no amount of eating more that will change how your body adapts in the future. And the reason I'm so that's so powerful is because there's there's just so much rhetoric of that's exactly what people are doing selling you reverse dieting, and I want people to think about this for a second if you ask any bodybuilder I had. Oh my god, Australian dude. Great, great content, Steve.

Philip Pape 56:56

No, not see. Australian.

Jordan Lips 57:00

bodybuilder coach is wife is Lauren Simpson. Sorry, I'm NorCal Oh, my gosh, okay. Okay, I had more Carolyn pockets, and we're talking about the guys coached a million women to stage and if eating more changed how your body adapted to less calories in the future, bodybuilders would have the easiest job ever, because and then as I said, Mark, like when you're dieting people to stage for the 10th time, does it get any easier because think about it 10 times they went down, and then they and then they reverse diet it and if that process of eating more affected how their body would adapt in the future, it should get easier every time it gets. If anything, it gets harder every time. And Mark says it almost to the to the exact calorie comes out to the same. And so the entire offseason that a bodybuilder spends eating more food doesn't change the fact that they go to the exact same calorie amount to get to the exact same body fat level. So there's there's no amount of eating more that will change how your body adapts to calories in the future. Like even if the metabolism adapts upward, which it does. Of course it does it metabolic adaptation happens in both ways. We didn't talk about it or whatever. There's no of like starting with a higher calorie number has nothing to do with where you'll ultimately end up. Metabolic adaptation happens within 24 hours. And so you know you again, not to shout Trexler. But like when we looked at research of like the what are some of the common factors of people who undergo the most metabolic adaptation? The common factor of people who undergo more metabolic adaptation when they're dieting is having higher baseline metabolic rates. It's like the ultimate irony. It's like the the people who saw more metabolic adaptation, we're starting with higher calories. And so this idea of, well, if I could just start with higher calories, or even like, that guy over there that I know, Jordan Jordans, it must be so easy for him. He starts at higher calories than me or that isn't technically true. And what I loved in that initial episode between Eric and Greg is Greg talking about the fact that Greg is like, he was like, 220, at the time trying to lose weight. And he was on 1800 calories. And he was having so many people say that's too little. That's too little. That's too little. Yeah, making the assumption that he must be tired, must be losing muscle must be hungry, must be eating up his metabolism. And he's like, guys, like, I feel fine. I'm losing at a half pound a week. What am I supposed to do with that information? Like I mathematically, it's like eight times bodyweight, right, which we think might be low. But we need to get less emotional about the numbers and absolute and start dealing with the facts of how my client feels and what the data is telling. Yeah,

Philip Pape 59:32

agree because there's things you can't change. I think the biggest indicator of your BMR the correlator is your organ size. Okay, do you have a couple more minutes? Yeah, I got some, okay, because I love talking about this. And one of the things that comes up often is hormones and we don't have to go down too deep a rabbit hole, but like thyroid hormone, for example, which we know is kind of a direct regulator of your metabolic rate in some sense, do we do we include that in the equation of metabolic adaptation or we can assuming that a different variable that affects your metabolism, and you know, caused by imbalances or dysfunction or something like what are your thoughts on that?

Jordan Lips 1:00:08

Yeah, I'm counting it. I'm certainly counting it in there. It is one of the adaptations that happens metabolically just because of its impact on metabolism. So for sure, the the interesting thing, so people will say that to me all the time about well, what, what about what if my thyroids tanked? And I'm like, well, first of all, if you need medication, get medication. I think if you have hypothyroid, that's like, you're absolutely right. You should fix that. Well, let's say you're just an average person who thinks your thyroid is tanked. I'll use that word because that's the one that's sorted out from dieting. It's like so, okay, so when we deficit, thyroid goes down. And your your plan is to eat more to make thyroid go up. do you think's gonna happen again, when you go back to eating less, I just mean like, it is interesting to me that you're there. Like you're like trying to fix a problem that was caused by x. Assuming that when you go back to doing X, that same problem won't come back. And so it is a outside of like, mega mega niche scenarios. I don't even know if there aren't megami scenarios, that niche scenario being somebody who needs brews court requires medication. A lot of people Yeah, well, whatever your hormones are in a bad spot. I'm like, What did what caused the hormones being in a bad spot? You're like dieting? And I'm like, Well, what are you going to do after you eat board? They're like, diet, I'm like, What do you think's gonna happen that they're like, not the same thing that happened last time. Like, I just don't like crack up. I'm like, this is yeah, we're not getting anywhere. Yeah,

Philip Pape 1:01:23

no, I like to ask because there's a difference, like you said, between medical condition and just the natural cause result of dieting, I definitely have had some clients, you know, pre menopausal women, who all of a sudden had medical issues with their thyroid. And if we had been tracking properly before, then we see a very different metabolism all of a sudden, and then that's a red flag, alcohol, sleep stress, all of these other factors, again, do they affect metabolic adaptation Are they just affect the kind of compensatory factors that cause you to burn fewer calories?

Jordan Lips 1:01:55

Yeah, they, they affect your experience. And they affect your dieting experience. And so lack of sleep stress, they are things that will make this harder, they aren't things that will make you lose less weight, transiently, we can talk about water fluctuations up and down. But I think that that's almost again, a non thing to talk about, because it is transient in both directions. But lack of sleep. And having a lot of stress are more likely to impact how you feel on a day to day basis, your proclivity to want to get up and move your feelings of optimism, your likelihood to do something that's good for you, you know, even willpower, which is a bit vague, but a kind of willpower kind of bundles up a lot of that stuff. You're like, natural clippety to want to make decisions that are positive for you that that is all affected. But they are all to the left of the equation. They're not an outcome. They are things that impact your experience and how you feel and they're super duper relevant. I mean, God, I'm almost I've gotten to a point where I'm like, we're not doing a deficit until you're sleeping seven hours. Yeah, just because I've seen how hard that can make things. Right. But again, if someone's like, Hey, I'm not sleeping, and I lose weight. I'm like, Yes, physiologically. Sure. Yeah.

Philip Pape 1:03:07

Some of the misunderstandings, I think, come from the fact that the sleeping, lack of sleep makes you hungry. And therefore, if you weren't tracking, you end up consuming more thinking you're consuming the same, you know, things like that. Just a couple more questions. One is, and this is actually kind of a selfish question, because I had a very interesting experience last year with surgery, rotator cuff surgery, where post recovery, and apparently there's, there's studies that support this from like the 80s, that show your metabolic rate skyrockets during the recovery process, because of all the new tissue being rebuilt after a rotator cuff repair. And my metabolism skyrocketed by about 300 calories within like, a few weeks. And so I started to lose weight, but then it dropped and it dropped much further than it was before. And I'm in a gaining phase. And then it started to build, build, build, build, build, and is almost back to where it was. Is that a case of like, The Biggest Loser phenomenon where it just takes a lot longer to recover? But it's still gonna recover? Is there something else going on? Like, Hey, maybe I might need just wasn't as high, which I think it was, but just wondering about your thoughts.

Jordan Lips 1:04:07

So you had surgery and the reparation process boosted metabolic rate, which it totally does. And then after that process was done, you'd return to the tissue back to baseline, you're saying that it, the data would say that your metabolic rate dropped lower than that 300 lower than whatever it was elevated. Right.

Philip Pape 1:04:27

And I'm using macro factor, so and so you started. Yeah, and then I Well, I've intentionally been gaining weight ever since last April. And my point was the expenditure dropped even further below where it had been before and it took a lot longer to recover from previous cycles. Because we talked about earlier I brought it up because you mentioned earlier how like bodybuilders, we always get back to the same levels no matter what. And I've seen that personally every bulk every cut, and this one was different because it's like not up to where it normally is by a few 100 calories. So I just wanted to throw that That sounds like an interesting scenario. And what are your thoughts on it? That's yeah,

Jordan Lips 1:05:04

that is interesting scenario. I

Philip Pape 1:05:05

mean, I'm not to put you on the spot. It's good. It's

Jordan Lips 1:05:08

good. It's good to talk about these, just from a hypothetical standpoint, I don't think that it is the case that there was like a, an some sort of recoil effect, some sort of like, oh, it bounced up really high. And that the physiological response of you know, that you're like, I'm not saying you said this, but like that your body was like tired from pulling, putting all that tissue. So it recoiled by reducing metabolic rate thereafter. You know what I do at times like this, like, as much as we're having great conversation about, like, what we know about metabolism? I do think that that is also why I come back to center and say, We got to deal with the data in front of us. Yeah. There's a reality balance. There's a healthy balance of being a detective and trying to figure out why something's happening. And being a realist and acting upon what is happening. And I think a lot of people spend so much time in the Why am I up a pound today? Why did I lose weight this week? Why aren't I losing weight? Why isn't the number that I got from this calorie calculator working? Instead of I'm not this is not yielding the response that I should be getting? What do I do about a lot of I should be losing weight? I should this be should I shouldn't have to go this low. I should be. Unless of like, this is my limited reality. Let me take how I feel and the data into account and act on it. But as a hypothesis, I really don't know. That's interesting, though.

Philip Pape 1:06:23

Yeah, we can follow up on that. I mean, yeah, so like you said, so what did I do? I just adjusted my calories really needed to be based on that. And I've been writing ever since I

Jordan Lips 1:06:30

dare you. Not freak out. It just it just your calories.

Philip Pape 1:06:33

I know. It was fun when I got to up them significantly after surgery, even though I didn't need them because I couldn't train for a few weeks. But anyway, okay, cool. So I do like to ask this question of all guests, Jordan, what one question is you wish I had asked, and what is your answer? Yeah,

Jordan Lips 1:06:49

it was the thing I just said. So I blew it. And it was what like, what's like, what's like a, where do you find the most frustration with the metabolic adaptation, reverse dieting community? Where do I find the most frustration and it's this the rhetoric of feeling like they shouldn't be losing weight. And it's the emotional attachment to numbers and absolute. And so I talked about this client once a while, and which is unfair, invariably, people get upset. It's like a client, she's 160 pounds, like pretty active, pretty muscular. And when we die it she's regularly in the 1200s to lose weight, you know, eight times body weight, let's say, and she loses at a rate that would indicate that that's not a huge deficit, she loses half a percent to 1% a week, she loses maybe three quarters of a pound a week. And she has maintenance calories that are quite low. And the reason that I think I share her so much is because she came to me from like, many, many, many, many coaches reverse dieting her to the point where she gained 40 pounds. And she gained 40 pounds, because the coaches couldn't believe that she was gaining on x, right? I say x, because that's how you should think of it. She was gaining at 150 pounds 14,000 steps on 1700 calories. bloodwork looks great. Thyroid was great sex hormones were great. Biofeedback was great, sleep was great mood was great lifts are great. But without looking at that number. This was a person who was by all accounts at maintenance calories arriving, but the number and absolute when seen by the coaches, fuel them to raise her calories. And then when she started gaining weight was told, Hey, you just need to keep doing this, keep doing this, keep doing this. And when she ultimately jumped ship, it was you quit too soon. And so she's had so much success, lost 30 pounds be in the best shape of her life, and fee. And I don't just mean at the expense of her health. I mean, while like if you were to watch her biofeedback trends, if you could somehow map all of them, you'd be like, wow, this person was in a very moderate sized deficit from a state of good health in print to deep into underweight. But when I tell you the calorie number, people freak out. And so I think that there's this emotional attachment to the number. And when people are really emotionally attached to the number, what it says is they think this is a very exact science. They think that they cause I think I'm eating X, I'm really eating x because the package says it's it's 340 it's really 340 Because I'm the, you know, the calorie tracker says this and the net carbs. And there's so many variables that go into this, that, like you said, from metabolic perspective, we take if we take averages, there's, there's up to 800% on eight and 800 Calorie difference from what the calorie calculator told you. And so, I think a lot of coaches and I'm not saying if you have 180 pound person who comes to you and is saying, Hey, I'm not losing weight, and they're like, how much are they you eating? And they're like, 1200 that you should say, yeah, go ahead, just eat 1100 Like you it's okay, if that sets off an alarm. And that alarm should sound like let me make sure they're actually doing that. I think that should sound off. Verify that yes, that should sound off and I'm okay with you. Being a skeptic. You should if someone's like eating eight times bodyweight 10 times body weight not losing any weight. By the way, times bodyweight super rough back of the envelope math, not the ranges though. Yeah. You shouldn't be like, Okay, let me make let me go through and make sure they're doing as close to within a reasonable deviation of what they say they're doing. But after that, like if I could take away the emotion, I just dealt with the client, how they feel what the data is telling me, I'll see a lot more success.

Philip Pape 1:10:14

Love them in that we're going to leave it at that because I think people need to hear that message. It's like you said, x is different for everyone. Don't compare yourself to others. Don't use the static calculators and assume that to you, like you've got to get this awareness and as we've talked on this show, you've got to track you've got to measure and go from there and make decisions. All right, where Jordan can listeners find more about you and your work. Yeah,

Jordan Lips 1:10:37

I hang out on Instagram Jordan lips fitness I also podcast where optimal leads practical, I'm guessing similar host of golf guests. I have a YouTube where you could watch them as well and as 1004 videos if that's something you're interested in, but uh, yeah, if you have a question shoot me a message on Instagram. I'm I'm not too hot shit to answer. I'll answer to

Philip Pape 1:10:59

men yet. You're super responsive. So I'll throw all those in there all the links as usual. Man, this was a blast. It was even better than expected I knew is going to be good. But you covered a lot of great stuff today. So thanks so much for coming on. It was it was a lot of fun. Thanks, man. I

Jordan Lips 1:11:10

appreciate I appreciate it.

Philip Pape 1:11:13

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